Introducing an Ordinary Family in Transition

Part 1 of 3 · Ep. 650

John Dehlin [00:00:16] Hello and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is September 7, 2016 and today we are very, very excited to have with us a very special and ordinary family. They have driven five hours away from Logan. They left at 5am in the morning to be able to tell us their epic story. This is absolutely an epic story. And let me just introduce the family a little bit. I'll go ahead and welcome Paul and Lisa and Kyle. Thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories.

Paul [00:00:50] Good to be here, John.

John Dehlin [00:00:53] As far as letting our listeners know why we're doing this interview, this interview touches on almost every facet of the 21st century Mormon experience. So it starts out as a very orthodox family with pioneer ancestry. From there, some of the children start to question in the family and then eventually one of the parents starts to question. So we have children losing faith, which is absolutely normal in the 21st century. Then we have a mixed faith, a couple.

John Dehlin [00:01:25] And there's so many people dealing with the mixed faith marriages right now. That's going to be something that we touch on. This also touches on the idea of one of their children serving a mission while one or both of the parents are losing their faith. That's a very important component of this story as well.

John Dehlin [00:01:44] And then of course, to make things even more interesting, one of the children comes out as gay. So we'll be dealing with LGBT issues. We may even talk about mama Dragons a little bit while we're talking about that. And it even gets better. We have to deal with one of the believing children getting married and what it's like for the non believing family members to sit outside of the of the temple ceremony. We've got a beautiful story around that that I want everyone to stay and listen to. And then it even continues because we also talk about how this family found community and support in their belief transition and tips for health and wellness, including tips on how to communicate with believing family and friends during and after a transition.

John Dehlin [00:02:37] So I think I covered a lot of the main topics. Now there's a couple interesting things. I think at the outset we want to make sure and let our listeners know what we're not intending to do here. So Paul, for those who are believers, and we're going to be dealing with issues with the faith transition, what's the message at the outset that you want to leave? For those of us who are watching,

Paul [00:03:06] who are believers, we as a family really believe we have something to offer for people that are already in crisis. Although our purpose is not for Believers to pull anybody out of the church. That's not what we're trying to do. And if people who know us in our community, or if our family members, especially our children, find this and want to listen to this, I just want them to know on the outset, we'd invite them to turn it off because our purpose is not to make them feel sad. There's a lot of pain involved with what we'll be talking about today. And we love them so much, we don't feel that we can bring them out.

Paul [00:03:44] They need to ask those questions themselves. However, we believe we have a lot to offer to those people that already find themselves in crisis, as we did two years ago. And that's really what we're here today, not to pull people out, but to help those already in crisis.

John Dehlin [00:03:58] Beautiful. I will also just say that, you know, we're not going to be using last names in this interview. Lisa, do you want to talk just really briefly about that choice?

Lisa [00:04:09] We just hope that for our family members, it won't be as searchable, won't be as out there, won't be as in their face to them, if. If we're just an ordinary family with first names only.

John Dehlin [00:04:23] Yeah. And so I'm actually going to title until. Until the family decides that they want to use their last name. I'm just going to have everyone who's listening refer to this as the Ordinary Family episode with Paul, Lisa, and Kyle. And someday they may change their minds and have us use their last name. But for now, this really isn't. This isn't any celebrities, although, you know, they do very important work in their communities. We're just going to call this the Ordinary Family.

Paul [00:04:50] Love it.

John Dehlin [00:04:51] That happens to deal on many dimensions of the transitioning Mormon experience.

Paul [00:04:56] And I think one thing to add to that is that you've had a lot of podcasts about extraordinary people doing extraordinary things, and there's a lot of people like ourselves, and you've had a few like ordinary families. But there's a lot of people in your audience. They're just average, everyday people like ourselves that go through this. And I think a lot of people will be able to relate to that.

John Dehlin [00:05:16] Beautiful. All right, so one thing that's not ordinary about this family is that they put together a spiral bound volume of notes that they've given me as a reference. But we're not going to be sort of hitting that super hard. But what I want to begin with is sort of your story. So, Lisa, why don't we begin with you? Talk a little Bit about how, you know, how you. Your Mormon experience kind of growing up.

Growing Up Faithful in a Mormon Home

Lisa [00:05:47] So I grew up in a wonderful, wonderful Mormon family. Very orthodox. Every time we had a problem or a question, my parents were always there to listen to talk to us. Their solution to every problem was, have you prayed about that, sis? And that was just how we lived our life. Everything we prayed about, they were great to support us in the activities, the school, things that we did. A wonderful, wonderful mom. She was really fun.

John Dehlin [00:06:21] What part of the earth?

Lisa [00:06:23] What part of the earth?

John Dehlin [00:06:23] What part of the US In Utah? What part? I mean, describe. Is it urban? You know, rural Utah. Rural Utah. And is that an important part of the story for you?

Lisa [00:06:36] Probably, because a lot of the activities revolved around the church and the things that we did in town. Everybody was Mormon, and that's just what you did was what was happening at the church.

John Dehlin [00:06:48] And is there anything about a small town that sort of makes a transition more or less interesting from your perspective?

Lisa [00:06:55] It's a lot more interesting, at least being by ourselves in a small town, making the transition, because everybody else is not thinking like we are.

John Dehlin [00:07:09] Right. And does word get around in.

Lisa [00:07:12] Word gets around very, very quickly.

John Dehlin [00:07:15] Okay.

Lisa [00:07:16] Yes. All right. All right.

Paul [00:07:17] And it can affect every aspect of your life. And in our area, we know no one that is going through a similar situation as we are. Certainly there are people inactive, but not for the reasons we are.

John Dehlin [00:07:29] So did you, Paul, did you grow up in the same town as Lisa and I?

Paul [00:07:31] Lisa and I are from the same small rural town in Utah. Grew up together, and we actually end up in the story becoming high school sweethearts.

Kyle [00:07:40] Whoa.

Paul [00:07:41] You know, just like the princess fairy tale story, if you will. But we enjoyed our upbringing. My upbringing was very similar to Lisa's. My father is what I would say is a Bruce R. McConkie Mormon. My dad, I love him and respect him. He had answers to my questions. I grew up in having very engaged doctrinal family home evenings. I enjoyed listening to my father speak because he did have those answers. He spoke often in church and high callings, and I would go listen to him and. And I liked his because he made it not boring. He had very interesting talks, and I grew up that way.

Paul [00:08:22] I loved seminary. I liked being the guy who knew the answers to the questions in seminary. I worked hard to know who the different characters were in the Book of Mormon or in church history. And I got a lot of kudos for doing that. And that was kind of my upbringing.

Youth, Identity, and Early Church Life

John Dehlin [00:08:39] And so were you guys kind of the naughty kids in High school. How would you describe kind of your reputations as it related to the church?

Lisa [00:08:49] We were not the naughty kids.

John Dehlin [00:08:51] Okay, what were you?

Lisa [00:08:52] Yeah, probably the Molly Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:08:55] You were the Molly Mormon?

Kyle [00:08:56] Yeah.

Lisa [00:08:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:56] Okay.

Paul [00:08:58] I was known for not swearing, for doing what's right, for being the son of my father who had pretty high calling. And we were good kids. We were really good kids.

John Dehlin [00:09:14] Okay, so you were in it to win it.

Paul [00:09:15] You were doing it? Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:09:17] You were going all the way.

Paul [00:09:18] Absolutely.

Missions, Marriage, and Building a Family

John Dehlin [00:09:18] So did you meet, I'm assuming, Paul, you served a mission?

Paul [00:09:23] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:09:23] Did you guys meet before or after the mission? And who wants to tell that story?

Lisa [00:09:29] I'll tell that story. We met before the mission. He was a senior, I was a sophomore. He had a year of college that I would go visit him some while I was still in high school. And then he went on his mission and he'll tell about his mission. But when he went on his mission, it was just an 18 month mission. He was called for 18 months.

John Dehlin [00:09:50] You're aging yourself now here.

Lisa [00:09:52] Yes, yes, we are. And then he had the opportunity to extend his mission to two years. And this is where I decided maybe I wouldn't wait so faithfully because I only said I was going to wait 18 months.

John Dehlin [00:10:07] And that's it, you're out of there. Okay, so what'd you do?

Paul [00:10:12] Well, let me go back to the beginning of the mission and the mission has a lot to do with it. And I can jump there if you'd like, John.

John Dehlin [00:10:20] Build upon it. Go ahead.

Paul [00:10:22] Before my mission, I really grew up with my. I could sum my testimony up as being a Stuart Peterson, Joseph Smith Mormon. The oh, how lovely was a morning going through the field. David Jacobs, who directed that movie, was my freshman bishop at byu. And we'd learn about how it was miraculous, how that was filmed and the music with it. And how that exactly happened was what my testimony was built around in addition to all the music and other things. When I was a kid, I used to go on a lot of business trips with my dad and he would listen to Paul Dunn tapes I all the time. And I'd feel the spirit so strongly when I'd listen to Paul Dunn.

John Dehlin [00:11:04] A lot of our listeners have never heard of Paul Dunn. For those who haven't, what's a Paul Dunn tape like?

Paul [00:11:09] I think that's so significant and I don't hear a lot of people talking about it. I've heard a few podcasts about that. But Paul Dunn was such a charismatic speaker to the youth in the late 70s, early 80s.

John Dehlin [00:11:21] What were some of the stories that inspired you.

Paul [00:11:23] He told stories of miraculous overcoming deathly situations in World War II. He talked about.

John Dehlin [00:11:31] He himself. Right.

Paul [00:11:31] He himself. He talked about being a St. Louis cardinal and his experiences of being in baseball. He also just told stories about when he was a mission president meeting with really high up members of other faiths and how he was able to direct them towards the church and many other stories. But the way he told it was so would pull at your heartstrings. And when I had a hard time remembering my testimony, I went back to Paul H. Dunn tapes and the strong feeling I had from them. And my dad would say, paul, remember those feelings that you're having as we were listening to him.

John Dehlin [00:12:12] So the spirit was with you. Thanks to Paul Dunn.

Paul [00:12:15] And then Stuart Peterson's version of the first vision. It was so lovely of a morning when he went out there to the grove of trees.

John Dehlin [00:12:22] Was that a movie?

Paul [00:12:22] It was a movie that we showed on our mission.

John Dehlin [00:12:25] And that's the one that I would have shown to my.

Paul [00:12:26] And you would have shown that about the same time. And it was, you know, that's how I got to know Jesus Christ and our Heavenly Father is because I had such strong feelings. Even though I had questions about the Book of Mormon and other things, I always went back to that movie. And that was what was in my mind of what happened. And I also. And I built my narrative on who my savior was and who our heavenly Father was based on him seeing two separate beings in that grove. It was huge for me.

John Dehlin [00:12:54] Okay.

Paul [00:12:55] So that's where I was getting ready to. That's how my mindset was going on my mission. And there was never a question about not going on a mission, especially because I was in love with this girl. I know as a 52 year old man. It's hard to say, you know, I was in love with it, but I was in that mindset. I was in love with her and I needed to go on a mission to come back and marry her. So I know this sounds funny, but we went to the Provo Temple to do my endowments. Lisa came with us.

Kyle [00:13:23] Wow.

Paul [00:13:23] She stayed in the car.

John Dehlin [00:13:24] That's intense.

Paul [00:13:25] It's very intense.

John Dehlin [00:13:27] How old are you at that point, Lisa?

Lisa [00:13:28] I would have been.

John Dehlin [00:13:29] Wait, hold the mic up.

Lisa [00:13:30] Oh, I would have been 17.

John Dehlin [00:13:34] Wow, that's intense.

Guest [00:13:35] Yeah.

Paul [00:13:36] So I go in there having this idyllic vision of what this experience is and I was just woefully unprepared. And it was very devastating for me. First going through the Initiatory and taking off my clothes and going and having people touch my body for my personality. I know other people find power in that. I didn't. I felt really weird and violated and strange. Not that they didn't touch anything too inappropriate. It was just strange. Now, as I envisioned, my dad was there doing the same thing, so it must be okay. And then soon I found myself. And I can't overemphasize this because everything else that happens, I think is based upon this.

Paul [00:14:19] Getting in and doing the endowments pre1990 it was 83ish. And all of a sudden I'm seeing my grandfather, who I love pantomime different ways of taking his life if he revealed what was taking place there. And I. I had never seen temple clothing before that moment. I'd never seen my parents temple clothing. And I was looking around everybody doing this, and I just felt so strange. There was no way out.

Paul [00:14:51] And I wouldn't have ran even if there was because I had the girl in the car. This is what I needed to do. So I trusted my father, I trusted my grandfather, and I went forward. But after I got in the car, Lisa, what did I say?

Lisa [00:15:06] So he comes back to the car and I'm all excited, thinking it's been such a wonderful experience. That's what we've heard all of our life. And he just had a sick look on his face and said, that is not the church I go to.

Paul [00:15:23] So that started my mission with that experience and of course to go on mission. And I like giving good talks and I did a good job. I feel like a good farewell talk. But in the mtc, you go to the temple every week, right? So we went to the temple every week and I still would have these weird feelings. And one day in the temple, I looked down the aisle and I saw Lavelle Edwards. And he looked down at me.

John Dehlin [00:15:47] Tell us who Lavelle Edwards is. Some people won't know.

Paul [00:15:49] Lavelle Edwards is the iconic coach of the BYU football team who I love.

John Dehlin [00:15:54] They won a national championship in 1984. Just, you know, so we understand.

Paul [00:15:58] He winked at me and I thought, wow, that's my answer there. It's going to be okay.

John Dehlin [00:16:05] Church must be true.

Paul [00:16:06] And it gave me a lot of comfort. It really did. And I finished my time there. A couple things happened. I was called to the Germany Munich mission. Few huge blessings in my life. My MTC companionships were wonderful. I know if they listen to this, they will think I'm being disloyal to them. And that really hurt me because truly, I love those folks, especially my MTC companion who became my best man. And we were companions out in the field. But we got out to Germany, and the first night we went tracking with the APs, and every door was slammed in my face. And for someone who doesn't like rejection, it was devastating to my psyche.

Paul [00:16:48] I don't know if people realize we put everybody in the same box and say, go forth and do this one manual as a missionary, and you will have all these blessings. I got back to the hotel that night, and my companion was just raving about, what a wonderful day and we are going to conquer the world. And I was devastated. How am I going to make it two years?

Paul [00:17:07] And I just knelt down and prayed and prayed, and no comfort came. And finally I fell asleep. Luckily, I got a good first companion who was very kind, a dairy farmer from Delta. And we didn't get too. He didn't push the tracting too hard. But in Germany, we had no investigators. And the average baptism per missionary was 0.8 baptisms per missionary, very low. So you spend a lot of time doing straight displays. And it was extremely hard for me. Every day I'd wake up and there was this cloud attacking me. And I would go to bed at night praying for help and for testimony. And the testimony that came to me was the memories I had watching Stuart Peterson in that movie.

Paul [00:17:55] Other people have said, well, you've always known. It's true. You grew up in this. You've had all these special experiences, meaning scout camps and love. And I've had a lot of love in my life. So I had a great ward. I grew up in a great family.

Paul [00:18:09] The only way I survived it, I don't want to go belabor this too much, was I found that the missionaries that were strictly obedient were not happy and were not as successful. At least I wasn't. And I'm not saying I did anything to send me home, but there were days I had to stop tracting and go get some pomos Fritz, some French fries on the corner in the middle of the wintertime, or an ice cream in the summertime or dropped by a member or we had some bootleg copies of the Sound of Music that we listened to in our apartment.

John Dehlin [00:18:42] For the record, that's pretty hardcore French fries, You know, Sound of Music.

Guest [00:18:48] I talked about things.

John Dehlin [00:18:50] I hope you repented for that, brother.

Paul [00:18:52] The other thing that happened to me, the second half of my mission, I spent mostly working with Americans and the American wards over there. Were fantastic. They really. Those that were active were really unified and worked together, and you felt a strong spirit with them, and they invited you over a lot. They took care of the missionaries because I was called to 18 months, and that was my experience at that moment. Every 16 months into my mission, they extended it to two, and I decided to stay, as Lisa said, because all my MTC group were. And we had a car and we had all the callings and we didn't have to do as much tracting.

Paul [00:19:25] And my last six months, my mission was really. Were really fun, and my mission presidents were great. I didn't have some of the experience I know you've expressed. My experience is mostly the biggest negative was the pushing of a book that was called Drawing or Calling Drawing upon the Powers of Heaven by Grant Von Harrison that basically said, if you're not having the success that you're looking for, it's because of you that you're not righteous enough. If only if you pray more and work harder, it will come to you. That's such a devastating message, because there's nothing we can do to change the free agency of another person.

Paul [00:20:02] But yet that's what we're taught. And that put me further into a hole. The only way I got out of that was by doing fun things and enjoying my companions. And with that, I made it through my mission.

John Dehlin [00:20:13] Were you able to have any success?

Paul [00:20:16] Only one baptism through tracting, and she didn't last very long.

John Dehlin [00:20:20] You got your one, though?

Paul [00:20:21] Oh, yeah. I did get the one.

John Dehlin [00:20:22] 1.8.

Paul [00:20:24] But most of the baptisms were either Ghanans, refugees, or people in the military, and they were solid baptisms.

John Dehlin [00:20:34] Okay, so you get home, and is your testimony intact when you get home?

Paul [00:20:39] Because I created the narratives I needed for it to be intact. I felt it was.

John Dehlin [00:20:44] So the temple wasn't really nagging at you?

Paul [00:20:47] Well, I didn't have to go to the temple on my mission until I got home. And then it came back, unfortunately, and it came back pretty fast. But I want you to know we took a long time deciding she was dating somebody else when I got home, and it took me a whole two weeks to get her back on Team Paul. And then it was a long time. Two weeks. That's a long time. And during my homecoming, I announced our engagement and our wedding date four weeks later. Okay, now I say this tongue in cheek, because if our kids did that, I would be really, really upset. It's really a crazy thing to do, especially in today's society, but for us, it's worked Great.

John Dehlin [00:21:28] Okay. So, Lisa, what was it like to wait for him on his mission? Were you in cold storage?

Lisa [00:21:33] Yep. I was in cold storage until 18 months.

John Dehlin [00:21:36] 18 months, okay.

Lisa [00:21:37] And then I just started dating, had fun. When he did come home, I was ready. I was glad that he was home. Dropped all those other boys and all those other boys.

John Dehlin [00:21:54] How was your testimony doing while he's on his mission?

Lisa [00:21:56] Great. Great. I even had talked to my parents. That's when girls could start going through the temple, or women could, without having a husband. And I talked to my grandma about if that would be a good thing for me. And she said, just wait till you have a husband. But I was anxious to go to the temple. I thought it would be wonderful. Just next step in my way to check off the list, things to do.

John Dehlin [00:22:24] And was it important for you to marry a returned missionary?

Lisa [00:22:27] Yeah, it wouldn't have. I wouldn't have considered anyone else.

The First Cracks in Faith

John Dehlin [00:22:33] Okay, so you guys got married. And at what point did things. Did the shelf start cracking for either of you or for your children, or Is there anything else you want to talk about in your marriage first before we get to that?

Lisa [00:22:51] So we had a wonderful marriage up until. We'll talk about the 20 years.

John Dehlin [00:22:57] So was the temple disturbing for you when you went through?

Lisa [00:22:59] No, not at all.

John Dehlin [00:23:00] You were fine?

Lisa [00:23:01] Yeah. I didn't even really think about what was happening. I just went because I was supposed to go.

John Dehlin [00:23:08] Wow. So you just went through unfazed. All right, cool. That's good.

Lisa [00:23:11] So even on our honeymoon, I set some goals for us because he was like, yeah, sure, whatever you want.

Paul [00:23:20] That night, I was promising anything she wanted.

Lisa [00:23:23] And the goals were like, go to the temple once a month, always pay a full tithe. All these. This is. We're having this many kids, and I set the goals, and he was right there with me.

Kyle [00:23:38] Yeah.

Paul [00:23:38] And I had full intention.

John Dehlin [00:23:39] Were you excited about that or.

Paul [00:23:41] I had full intention of doing those things right that moment. And that was the first time back to the temple when we got married and I was thinking about our marriage. I wasn't thinking about exactly what we're doing. I was trying to make it a positive experience for her. It was fine.

John Dehlin [00:23:56] That time on autopilot.

Paul [00:23:58] We're on autopilot at that point.

John Dehlin [00:24:00] All right, all right.

Paul [00:24:00] But this is really important. What happens next? It's hard to explain.

Lisa [00:24:03] I start the monthly temple attendance that we can do that. And right off the get go, he doesn't want to go. And I'm like, this is our goal. We have to go. But Right from the beginning, he didn't want to go or have anything to do with it. And that's when I kind of started to think, this isn't good. And from then, for our 29 years in our marriage, the only fights we've ever had were about church stuff.

Paul [00:24:37] And it's hard to explain because I don't want anybody out there to think I wasn't active. I know the narrative that we hear often is, oh, you never believed. So obviously you got there. I did everything. I paid my tithing, I did my callings. The problem is I grew up so literally very binary that things were black and white. It was true or not true. And I kept running into things that just didn't make sense to me. I didn't investigate them any further. But it became very difficult for me. The temple was a big one, but also.

John Dehlin [00:25:09] So how many years in your marriage was the temple a problem for you?

Paul [00:25:12] It started right off the beginning.

John Dehlin [00:25:14] Okay. And your fights were about you not wanting to go to the temple.

Paul [00:25:18] But it did quickly went to not being the priesthood holder, the leader in the family that she wanted and deserved.

John Dehlin [00:25:28] How were you slacking?

Paul [00:25:29] So how I was slacking is I did not want to have callings. I felt uncomfortable with having callings that would make me have to testify at things that were difficult. I still could testify strong about Joseph Smith, but it's ended there. I started having a hard time with just the normal narrative of polygamy with Brigham Young. Just the fact that it was there, then went away. And I would think about that. I would think about the 1978 pre racism and some of the comments about the Curse of Cain. And it just didn't make sense to me that we would be unkind to people.

John Dehlin [00:26:04] Now this is in the 80s and 90s, right?

Paul [00:26:06] Yes. But I didn't know anything about Joseph Smith or any of those things yet.

John Dehlin [00:26:09] It's just normal stuff, pre Internet. And you hadn't read any of the books. You're just having some lingering issues.

Paul [00:26:19] And the other issue I had was with the Book of Mormon when we would have family Book of Mormon study every night and even started before we had kids. And we'd come across parts of it that I would just be, quite frankly, progressively more snarky over time. For example, we get to Nephi cutting off Laban's head, and I would say, okay, I would go through all the scenarios. Now why did he need to do that? Couldn't God just have struck him dead? He was already drunk. Why? You know, where did the Blood go. When he.

Lisa [00:26:50] And every time he'd start on things like that, I'd be like, honey, don't. Don't let the kids hear you saying things.

John Dehlin [00:26:59] So you remember.

Kyle [00:27:00] I just remember my mom going, shh. A lot in my childhood.

John Dehlin [00:27:05] Now, what's that? Now, seriously. Now, this is kind of important because when the person that you're supposed to love most is looking down on you as lesser than or inadequate or not what you want them to be, that can be really hard on a marriage. So, Paul, what was that like for you to have this discomfort and to have her kind of shushing you? And then, Lisa, I'm going to ask what it was like for you to have him being snarky?

Paul [00:27:35] It's a very good question for the

John Dehlin [00:27:37] marriage and for your course.

Paul [00:27:39] It's more messy than what we can say in a few minutes here. But to sum it up, I mean, any time there was General Conference, there are some speeches in General Conference I would like, but some of it, for example, President Monson's monotone voice and remembering details of everything that happened 50 years ago that seemed not to be truthful to me. I would point out. And the monotone sing song voice that they said in General Conference just bothered me. Why don't they just talk to us? Why don't they be real? It just didn't seem real to me. I would make those comments. She would not be happy with me.

Paul [00:28:12] She would go to women's conference and come home and she would just cry at women's Conference, wondering where her priesthood holder was that she deserved. But how did that make you feel? But how it made me feel. I'm sorry.

Paul [00:28:25] It made me feel really sad. I hated when General conference was coming and that we would have this fight, but I felt like I could not be who I wasn't. And there are some things in the church that resonated with me that I could testify of. I was a counselor at one point, and I gave really good talks. But whenever I needed somebody to testify of somebody, I pulled out an enzyme. But in our marriage, it was the only thing that tore us down. And I. I love this woman so much. I was willing to do anything, to do whatever, calling to try my best to.

Paul [00:29:01] I dragged my feet a lot, but I would make it to scripture study, but I did not like having my spouse, who I loved in this one area, look down on me.

John Dehlin [00:29:12] Did it hurt? Do you feel like it hurt, your intimacy at all? I just mean emotional intimacy, intense.

Paul [00:29:18] We would get past that. Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:29:20] It would so it kind of drove a wedge between you during those times.

Lisa [00:29:24] But the thing was, he's a really good dad and a really good husband. And so I had this provider. Yeah. And so I had this cog diss in my head because I'm.

John Dehlin [00:29:35] Tell us what that means.

Lisa [00:29:36] I'm thinking, holding two thoughts. One is, he's a bad man because he doesn't do this church stuff. The other is he's a really good man because he takes such good care of me. I know he loves me more than anything. He's such a good dad, takes such good care of our family. Like, on weeks that he would skip out on Sunday school and priesthood, he would go home and clean the whole house and make dinner. So I would come home, and all the way home, I'd just be huffy that he didn't stay. But then I'd get home and he had done all this, and it really did help a lot to have him do those things.

Lisa [00:30:14] So I was just holding these two thoughts of, he loves me so much. He is such a good man. You could never find anyone that is as good of a man as he is, but he just has this one flaw.

Paul [00:30:26] In addition, it would make me resent the church more, though, because I didn't blame her. I believe blamed the narrative. We have family members that are really strong family members, and it's kind of like, why can't you be like them? Well, I thought I was a pretty good me except for this one area. And I wanted to be authentic with who I was.

John Dehlin [00:30:46] And, Lisa, how was it for you? How did it feel for you to have him not being the person you wanted him to be and what were you worried about?

Lisa [00:30:55] So I remember scenes of. I would go to, like, the Sunday or the Saturday night session of conference, and there was no way he was going to go. Like, he'd go on Sunday. That was good, but not Saturday night. And I would sit and bawl through that whole thing. I remember sitting with family members and they thought I was bawling over my son who wasn't going on a mission. And it wasn't. I was crying because I knew that Paul should be there with me.

John Dehlin [00:31:24] That were you worried about, like, heaven? Like, yeah. What were the thoughts?

Lisa [00:31:30] I would talk to my parents and say, you know, he just doesn't get this. And they would say, you have a strong enough testimony for both of you. You'll get there, he'll make it, and your testimony can pull him through. And when you get to heaven, you'll have the choice of Whether to accept him or reject him, because you still have that option up in heaven and pick someone else. Yeah, but he won't even make it there if he's not doing these things.

John Dehlin [00:32:04] What did that do to you to have that pressure of being responsible for towing him into heaven? Did that have an impact on you at all? Your emotional health, your well being, anxiety, depression, anything?

Lisa [00:32:18] No, I was pretty stable and I had my list that I checked off.

John Dehlin [00:32:21] So you were just supercharged?

Lisa [00:32:23] Yeah, we had family, home, evenings.

John Dehlin [00:32:25] Was she supercharged, Kyle?

Kyle [00:32:26] Oh, my. Yeah. Life with family, home, evening. We would switch off. That was the big deal was when we'd switch off scripture study in the morning or at night and then what book we were reading in addition to the book of scripture. So she just was on top of it.

Lisa [00:32:45] I had it handled.

Paul [00:32:46] Honey, what did you keep track in your scriptures?

Lisa [00:32:48] So at one point I got so disgusted because we had changed to morning scriptures and that was a little harder for everybody to come to. So I could make the two little boys come because I still had control over them. And the others I couldn't really make come, but I would write in my scriptures like a checklist of who attended scripture study that morning, including me often. Paul wasn't there. Very judgmental.

When Spouses Are in Different Places

John Dehlin [00:33:18] So, Paul, what does it feel like for you to have your wife? Like, there's this term that I read about called collusion, where when one person starts going in one direction, the other person in a partnership goes in the other direction to kind of balance each other out. So if one starts becoming more and more faithless, the other will become more faithful. What was it like for you to have her just becoming the Energizer Bunny as you're feeling like lethargic about your faith?

Guest [00:33:44] It.

John Dehlin [00:33:45] Was it annoying?

Paul [00:33:46] It was very annoying. However, I did all I could to try to compensate it. And because I didn't know any of the real difficult things at this point, all I knew, it was boring. I didn't like a lot of aspects of it. It didn't ring true to me. But I love this woman so much. And I was willing to give up any part of me except that total being authentic person.

John Dehlin [00:34:09] So the snarkiness you couldn't put a lid on.

Paul [00:34:12] I did at times, but other times it would come out.

John Dehlin [00:34:14] Yeah, because why? Why couldn't you just put a lid on the snarkiness?

Paul [00:34:18] Because it was always in my face. You read through the Book of Mormon even further and there are just parts that come out that just. You would read 2 Nephi 5 and talking about why it delights him.

Lisa [00:34:33] He thinks too much, you were thinking,

John Dehlin [00:34:36] but all this time you were still believing. Would you say you still had a testimony?

Paul [00:34:41] Still had a testimony. But I did not get up and just bear my testimony unless it was some situation I was put in. And if I did, I would testify of how much I appreciate the value of families in my life, that the church teaches families. And I love my family so much and I want to be with my family forever. And if I had to go doctorally, it was mostly Joseph Smith in the first vision I would go to, but nothing too far away from that.

John Dehlin [00:35:08] Okay, so God, Jesus, Joseph Smith, first vision.

Paul [00:35:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:12] That's kind of where you start. Were you going to say something?

Kyle [00:35:14] Well, I was just. I remember a time that my dad, Christmas fell on a Sunday that year. So we just had the one hour meeting, which we absolutely loved. But my dad just being not snarky, but just being a funny guy, he brought just a pile of books up with him and he was called to speak, just to close it off. And he brought a pile of books up with him with like sticky notes sticking out so it looked like he was gonna give a huge lecture. And then he put them down on the podium and then he just said what? He just said like, I love my family. I love what? Yeah, it was just a really short 32nd thing.

John Dehlin [00:35:52] What were you thinking about your dad and mom, both individually and their dynamic as you were growing up?

Kyle [00:35:58] For me, my mom was kind of the like emotional side of the church and my dad was like the logical side. Because anytime that we had like any kind of deep doctrine that we were talking about, it'd always be like my dad, who knew that, like what we were talking about when we were talking about deep doctrine and my mom was talking about the like the spiritual side, like the praying. The praying and like that kind of thing.

John Dehlin [00:36:20] What do you think about number one, his snarkiness versus her devoutness. And then two. Did you, did, did you get a sense that that was some tension between them?

Kyle [00:36:30] I had no idea.

John Dehlin [00:36:31] You had no idea?

Kyle [00:36:32] I had no idea. Like, it was just always my mom would shush my dad. Like we had. She'd say something in German. What was it?

Paul [00:36:40] Forsicht.

Kyle [00:36:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:41] What? What?

Kyle [00:36:42] It means careful.

John Dehlin [00:36:43] Say it again. Say it again.

Lisa [00:36:44] Forsig. Forzig.

John Dehlin [00:36:46] Forsig.

Lisa [00:36:47] Which means be careful.

John Dehlin [00:36:48] Be careful.

Kyle [00:36:48] Yeah.

Lisa [00:36:49] Watch what you're saying.

Kyle [00:36:50] Yeah. And I just remember that for as long as I really don't remember anything.

John Dehlin [00:36:54] And so you just said, dad's, just kind of irreverent or silly.

Kyle [00:36:58] Yeah, he's just silly. It doesn't mean it doesn't believe he was.

John Dehlin [00:37:02] One more quick question. So did the ward and stake have any idea about this dynamic? How do you think your family was perceived by your warden stake during this time?

Paul [00:37:14] Well, I think we sent up a lot of mixed signals that had to have confused a lot of people. I was in a lot of the bishoprics and stake presidencies as an executive secretary or clerk for eight or eight plus years. And I was positive. I was happy. My last calling was a financial clerk. And when the bishopric would come in and we would joke about all sorts of things and they would say, paul, you're such a dynamic, nice guy. Why don't you speak in church next week? And I would say, and this is after the faith crisis. I would say, oh, no, thank you so much. You know, but before the faith crisis, I would speak in church.

John Dehlin [00:37:52] And you spoke as a high counselor.

Paul [00:37:53] I was a high counselor as well. And as a young man's president, I would do my best.

John Dehlin [00:37:57] Young man.

Kyle [00:37:57] So you were.

John Dehlin [00:37:58] By the ward standards, you guys look like a model family. Is that possible?

Lisa [00:38:02] So I had been every president of every woman's organization several times.

John Dehlin [00:38:08] Primary president, Young women's and Relief society. You did the trifecta?

Kyle [00:38:13] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:38:13] You did the triathlon?

Lisa [00:38:14] Triple crown?

Paul [00:38:15] Yes.

Kyle [00:38:17] Okay.

Lisa [00:38:17] And I had Paul always to help and support me. The last time I was young women's president, we were doing girls camp, and it was a pain. And it ended up that a lot of my ladies had to work and I wasn't working and I kind of did it myself. And he was right there helping me get a trailer, get him up to camp. Stayed as a priesthood leader. Always a. Always lots of support. Even when I would go to the temple, he would say, I think it's a waste of time, but if you're going because you like to meditate there or think about things and get away from the world, great. Always support me. Because it was a lot of my time that I spent doing this church stuff. But he was always very supportive.

Paul [00:39:02] So at the temple every week, sometimes

Lisa [00:39:04] after my kids got in school, then I had no excuse, then I needed to go once a week, every week to the temple.

John Dehlin [00:39:10] Holy moly.

Paul [00:39:11] I would try to take roses and put it on her car seat sometimes just to make sure she knew I was thinking of her.

John Dehlin [00:39:16] Oh, that's sweet. Okay. Now, I know that maybe a couple of your children at some point.

Paul [00:39:25] Can I just add one more Thing back to your other question is one thing it did to me, though, John, and it caused me a lot of anxiety in that when I went to church, I so didn't want a leadership calling that I would be put in a position to be a hypocrite or have to force because unfortunately, that's what the church does. Even today, when they say there's places in the church for people who are disaffected, it's really not true. Because if you're there, you're expected to testify, to be called up at fast and testimony meeting, or be called up by a bishop, or to be called into a calling where you're expected to give a lesson that will require you to testify of things you don't believe.

Paul [00:40:05] So I would go to church and try to come in late. I would try to hunker down and I'm a tall guy and try not to be seen all the time. Would cause anxiety inside of me and would be relieved when I would leave. Now, sometimes I'd go to Sunday school, but not very often. I would try to sneak out if I had a calling that would allow me. But a lot of times I was teaching Sunday school, and if that was the case, then I would just go to my class and teach love and kindness and those things I believed at the time.

John Dehlin [00:40:30] So you were making yourself small, trying to be invisible. What does that do to you emotionally?

Paul [00:40:35] It just creates incredible tension inside over the person you think you are, but person you are and what people are thinking of you. It descends. It hurts yourself mentally. It really does. It's not good for your mental health. Health.

John Dehlin [00:40:50] Okay, so not a happy place for you?

Paul [00:40:52] It was not a happy place for me.

Kyle [00:40:54] Okay.

Paul [00:40:54] I dreaded Sundays.

John Dehlin [00:40:56] Okay. And that went on for, I guess, sounds like 10, 15 years. What?

Paul [00:41:01] 29 years.

John Dehlin [00:41:02] 29 years. All right, so.

A Son's Struggles and Family Tensions

Paul [00:41:05] So we had one son that you just asked about, you wanted to talk about.

Lisa [00:41:09] So he is a wonderful.

John Dehlin [00:41:11] What are we going to call this son?

Paul [00:41:12] Our oldest son.

John Dehlin [00:41:13] Oldest son.

Lisa [00:41:14] He is a wonderful, wonderful boy. But he's really smart and a really thinker, and even from when he got baptized, that was not a big deal to him. He quickly. He tells us now, after we can have, like, some real conversations that he tells us that first time that he heard that blacks weren't allowed the priesthood, he just said, that's not right. They're just people, too. Just really never caught on. Like, even now when we talk about all this stuff, we're like, so amazed with. He's. He didn't. He's a Nevermo.

John Dehlin [00:41:50] He's like, I never bought that stuff.

Lisa [00:41:52] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:53] Why did you guys ever believe it

Lisa [00:41:54] in the first place? But we had put him through a lot. I had put him through a lot

Paul [00:42:01] because I was like, whatever.

Lisa [00:42:03] He didn't go on a mission, first of all. And when it was time, how was

John Dehlin [00:42:07] that for Mighty Mom?

Lisa [00:42:08] Oh, I cried myself to sleep. I can't tell you how many times,

John Dehlin [00:42:14] but he know it. Did you make sure he knew you were crying yourself to sleep?

Lisa [00:42:17] No, no, I tried. He knew.

Kyle [00:42:20] He knew. He knew.

John Dehlin [00:42:21] Okay.

Lisa [00:42:22] I tried not to, but I just felt like he wouldn't have all the same advantages because he.

Kyle [00:42:28] He told me that he, at one point he was going to go just to appreciate you. Just said you wouldn't have to feel that way.

John Dehlin [00:42:34] But he didn't.

Lisa [00:42:35] But he said to me, mom, if you really want me to go that bad and it's hurting you, because, yeah, he knew he was hurting me. If it's hurting you that bad, I'll go. And I said, well, do you have a testimony? No, I don't, but I'll go if you want me to.

John Dehlin [00:42:53] Wow.

Paul [00:42:54] He's a good cat.

John Dehlin [00:42:55] That's like an Abrahamic sacrifice. And so what'd you say to him?

Lisa [00:42:59] I said, no, but I had him go to BYU because I was sure.

Paul [00:43:03] Provo.

John Dehlin [00:43:04] Yeah, that's worse than a mission.

Lisa [00:43:06] I was sure if he went there that he would gain a testimony. So made sure he got in there and lived in the dorms.

Paul [00:43:14] It was only a few years till we realized that was a disaster and moved him up to the University of Utah, where he graduated in chemical engineering. He's a brilliant young man, good kid, and loves his mom and dad.

John Dehlin [00:43:24] So what's it like in this state of mind to have a kid that not only doesn't serve a mission, but just kind of checks out of the church?

Lisa [00:43:32] It was awful. I had failed as a parent. It was my fault.

Paul [00:43:36] This is one place where I would come into the marriage and say, honey, it's not free agency. We love him. All we can do is love.

John Dehlin [00:43:43] Did you make him feel bad?

Guest [00:43:44] No, no, no.

Lisa [00:43:45] And Paul would always say, do you want him in our lives or not in our life? Because if you want him in our life, that then you need to quit doing these things.

John Dehlin [00:43:54] You had the lever. You were gonna kick him out. Kinda.

Paul [00:43:58] I mean, intentional shame.

Kyle [00:44:01] I don't know. I think it was an intentional. To draw him back in was what we were thinking. It wasn't, but we didn't realize that the things that we were doing to draw him in were pushing him out.

John Dehlin [00:44:13] You feel bad about that now?

Lisa [00:44:15] Oh, awful. Just horrible. But he's forgiven me.

John Dehlin [00:44:19] That's sweet. Did it affect him, his mental state, his emotions? What was it like for him to be the black sheep?

Paul [00:44:27] I hate to talk on his behalf because I think he's a positive person and would probably put a positive spin on it. And so I'm going to speak on my behalf as I looked at it, by sending those messages to him that he wasn't enough. I think can't help but think it affected his self esteem. But he is. But he's a strong person and, you know, I wish he were here to speak for himself, but I can't help but think as a father that it did affect him.

John Dehlin [00:44:54] So we.

Paul [00:44:55] I would go back to Lisa and we did show love and we invited him home and we wanted him home. But there was that feeling there, I don't think. I think if he were here, he'd say he never felt that for me,

John Dehlin [00:45:07] but so was he kind of. He would go to you but kind of stay away from mom, did it. Was there closer? Was he close?

Lisa [00:45:13] Yesterday he was close to me, but it was always because Paul would say, he's coming home. Do you want him in our life or not in our life? Because if you want him, you need to just show love and kindness and not say all these things you have outlined to say to him.

Paul [00:45:27] Just love. Love's all we got.

John Dehlin [00:45:30] Wow, that's powerful. What were you thinking about your black sheep brother?

Kyle [00:45:33] I was like 8 when this was happening, so I was really young. But any contention I can remember from when I was a kid came from those couple of months. Years.

John Dehlin [00:45:46] So when there was tension in the family.

Kyle [00:45:48] Yeah. It was because older brother is.

John Dehlin [00:45:50] Because isn't being the way he should be. Okay.

Paul [00:45:54] But granted, he wasn't out partying. He wasn't doing things that we would say were bad. He just.

Kyle [00:45:58] All his friends were members in high school.

Paul [00:46:01] Like, he's a good kid.

Kyle [00:46:02] Awesome.

Paul [00:46:02] As we would define at that time.

John Dehlin [00:46:04] Okay. All right. So was that. Was there any other major thing between that and when the shelf. Was it Paul, was it your shelf that started.

Kyle [00:46:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:16] Their big stories.

Paul [00:46:16] No, I think that's what

John Dehlin [00:46:20] we're in the marriage. It's 2000, right?

Paul [00:46:26] 14.

John Dehlin [00:46:26] And you've been on like Middleburn for like what happened.

Paul [00:46:32] And Even during those 29 years when I would come across supposed anti Mormon literature or things that were critical of the church, I envisioned this metaphor of this big monster behind a door, a very scary monster. And the closer I got to that door, the worse I felt inside. My emotions would just feel really awful. And if I went away from that door, I would feel good again. So I stayed away from anything that was anti Mormon, that I preferred to be anti Mormon, even though I was snarky and had lots of things that didn't add up. I never the hole to investigate any further A because I didn't want to make our marriage work because I interpreted that as being Satan, that when you get close to that door that you just feel really sick inside mentally.

Paul [00:47:27] And I did not like that. I like being happy. I like peace in my life. And so I would go away from it. Unfortunately, there's some things that happened this spring of 14 that really changed it. First of all, and this may seem unusual, you've never probably heard this before, but in reading Brad Wilcox's famous talk on grace, his grace is sufficient.

Paul [00:47:50] I really like that talk because I hated the narrative in Nephi that talks about, you are saved after all you can do. You're saved by grace after all you can do. Or in Moroni 1032, that yea, come to Christ and be perfected in him, and deny yourself of all ungodliness. And when you deny yourself of all ungodliness, it's through Christ that you're saved, but only you deny yourself of all ungodly.

Paul [00:48:14] And so Brad's book was saying, no, no, his grace is what saves us. In fact, he even makes the point of saying, we misread that scripture in Nephi, that it's more of a preposition instead of. We things that we're supposed to do, and we never can do them all. So we're and I didn't like to be a failure. I know other people view that differently I viewed it. And so when Brad Wilcox's book came along, I thought, wow, we are saved by in spite of all we can do by grace. And that sounded much better than the narrative. The problem was he even changed what Stephen R.

Paul [00:49:09] Robinson had done a couple years ago, which moved the needle further in terms of grace and what Christ's atonement did for us than what I taught on my mission. The problem with all that, even though that sounded better, I suddenly could see that the needle was moving.

Paul [00:49:28] And what I had been taught on my mission in terms of grace and works was much different. And I could see that this was a healthier place for the church to move in the future. But it was not happening. Through apostles. Although President Uchtdorf made a talk similar to this, it was happening through these gentlemen. But you didn't hear a lot of people in general talking about it. But I could see the needle starting moving. And then that kind of bothered me just first of all. And then Lisa had gone to bed one night and I stayed up surfing the Internet and I came across a really bad site.

Paul [00:50:02] The New York Times. And in the New York Times I saw an interview with a former 70 of the church named Hans Mattsson, who you've interviewed from Sweden. And it was only a four minute. I read the story, but also the four minute video of him. And he said some things that I had never heard before. And I know apologists and others will say, well then you weren't paying attention because no, I was in. I attended. I had a dad that knew his stuff and I did not hear this

John Dehlin [00:50:34] stuff, in fact, what types of things?

Paul [00:50:35] So the number one thing that hit me the hardest was polygamy and Fanny Alger. I did not believe Fanny Alger. That hit me straight off the top

John Dehlin [00:50:45] that Joseph Smith had a young girl,

Paul [00:50:49] the maid in the house. And it was 1833ish before.

John Dehlin [00:50:54] Several years before the revelation was ever really released or published.

Paul [00:50:59] So if the ceiling power.

John Dehlin [00:51:04] And Oliver Cowdery is upset about it and he calls it an affair. So it's an ambiguous marriage.

Guest [00:51:14] Yes.

Paul [00:51:14] I started feeling dark again and I just dropped it. And I didn't months later and I pulled it up again because I couldn't get it off my mind. And then I went to investigate it to prove it wrong. That's not true.

Paul [00:51:27] And the deeper I went, I started running into the other things that Hans talks about there. He talks about some of the more of the racist statements that Brigham Young and others had made. And I ran across Markey Peterson's 1955 speech at BYU and the horrendous things. An apostle that when I was a kid I looked up to to as being a wonderful man. I ran across these different versions of the first vision and I always knew that there was something out there. But people had said, no, no, they harmonize with each other, don't worry about it. But for the first time in my life I looked into them and they didn't harmonize.

Paul [00:52:02] And one thing that was really startling to me was that the version that we go through was written down 18 years after it supposedly happened. And the one that was written down first was still 12 years after, but read exactly like you would expect from a born again Situation of a Protestant of that time.

Paul [00:52:23] Oh, my gosh, my world was falling apart. This is not what I grew up believing. My testimony was based on that first vision. And my. Stuart Peterson, Joseph Smith did not have an affair or practice Polygamy with a 16 year old who was his maid.

Guest [00:52:44] The knowledge of that, I can't express how deep that hurt me.

Paul [00:52:49] Even though I was snarky, I still was hanging on as much as I can and it was causing me pain. But when I heard that all this stuff was actually true and I had been going through all this pain for 29 years in my marriage,

Guest [00:53:06] that was one side.

Paul [00:53:07] The other side was, oh my gosh, where's my wife going to be in this? So I put it up again. I didn't bring it back out until July and in July.

John Dehlin [00:53:19] So several. How many months went by. Were you stuffing and stuffing?

Paul [00:53:22] I started in April. Okay. And I brought it back out in May. And then I went through June, July brought it out again. And then I ran across Mormon stories. Hans Motson. I know, it's kind of scary. And so I started listening to it. Lisa caught me listening to it and I turned it off immediately because she was not happy about that.

John Dehlin [00:53:43] Lisa, do you remember?

Lisa [00:53:45] I don't really remember. I just remember 24th of July. It was in the bathroom, he had it. And I was like, what is that you're listening to?

John Dehlin [00:53:56] Were you worried? Were you starting to catch on at all? No.

Lisa [00:53:59] No.

John Dehlin [00:54:00] You had no idea?

Lisa [00:54:01] No.

Paul [00:54:01] So the one thing that really I think is a good lesson for people going through this is on the 24th of July. It was a holiday and we had time to look at stuff like this. I was really hurting and I went to Lisa and I said, please, let's talk.

Guest [00:54:14] And she.

Paul [00:54:15] We had an argument. It was not pleasant. And I felt so sick inside. I felt like I was losing my wife. I ran over to her and I said, honey, I'll do whatever you need, please. And she wasn't going to leave me. She says, but I felt like this gulf was separating. And I made a mistake of saying I'll do whatever I need to. I will never look at this stuff again. I will just get back in and be active and do whatever you need me to do until the kids are gone.

John Dehlin [00:54:42] Yeah. People make that promise.

Guest [00:54:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:44] Yeah. What's wrong with that promise?

Paul [00:54:46] Promise is the truth still is in the back of your head and your brain still subconsciously tries to reconcile that and make things align and fit. It just happens even without you thinking about it. Several weeks went on. And my brain was doing that. And I came across the Swedish Rescue, which was very key to me.

John Dehlin [00:55:06] What was that?

Paul [00:55:07] Swedish Rescue is a lot of people during Hans Matzon's time in Sweden, in high callings, stake presidents, bishops, other leaders were coming across similar information that they didn't know. Also things about the Book of Mormon and the historicity of the Book of Mormon and anachronisms and things, things that didn't add up in the Book of Mormon. And the Book of Abraham was a huge too. So that's probably the top five things. And they sent the church historian and the assistant church historian to Sweden, all the way from Salt Lake to help answer the question. And they had a super secret meeting to answer it. And I felt to myself, john, I'm sorry. I felt to myself, if anyone has the answers here, they're going to explain it.

John Dehlin [00:55:50] So it's Marlon Jensen, who was serving as church historian at the time. Richard Turley, who was assistant church historian.

Paul [00:55:57] If you listen to that tape that somebody recorded, I'm so grateful they recorded it. But the first half of it is bearing testimony. Brethren, you've always known this is true. Come on. Think back of when you felt those movings of the spirit. You know, we don't know everything. We see through a glass darkly. The second half is Brother Turley talking about these issues. And he's got nothing, John. In my mind, he's got a spin on different things, but he admits lots of it. In addition to Fanny Alger, polyandry bothered me terribly.

Guest [00:56:30] I imagine if somebody came to my wife in a church calling and said that they were going to marry her. That's Warren Jeffish, anybody. We would say, that's sick and wrong. We wouldn't look at that with the least degree of allowance. That would just.

Paul [00:56:48] And yet they substantiated so much of this, and then they put a spin on that.

John Dehlin [00:56:54] Joseph Smith married other people's wives.

Guest [00:56:57] Yeah, other people's wives. And then he said, you know, there's not proof they had sex with all of them. Well, more than one is too many for me.

John Dehlin [00:57:05] I don't get that argument. Because when is polygamy not included sex? You take polygamy, Brigham Young to when it ended, lots of kids and babies were being born through all the polygamous wives. So why are we insisting that somehow with Joseph there wasn't sex? It makes zero sense.

Guest [00:57:20] And even if you say there isn't

Paul [00:57:22] sex, in my mind, and I call

Guest [00:57:25] it spiritual rape, and that is when you go to a 14 year old

Paul [00:57:30] and say not only you, but your whole family will have salvation forever, exaltation forever, if you agree to marry me. And if you don't, they'll be damned.

Guest [00:57:42] To a 14 year old girl, I call that spiritual rape. You're changing her spirituality for her whole life and you're violating her. You're changing how she can perceive.

Paul [00:57:53] Free agency is gone.

Guest [00:57:54] The atonement is gone under that narrative. And it all depends on what that 14 year old does. Whether sex happens or not.

Paul [00:58:02] You've changed that for that.

Guest [00:58:04] And I don't buy into the dynastic ceilings because there's other ways you could have done that as opposed to a

Paul [00:58:11] 14 year old girl.

Guest [00:58:12] And God is restoring things and he chooses this as his number one. Go to. Why not restore penicillin first and start with washing your hands and then being kind and nice and you know, there's lots of things we could have gone to first, but no, we go to polygamy first and we put so much emphasis. We bring an angel with a drawn sword at the same time. Slavery is still going on. And that was one of my aha moments too. When I found out that Utah practiced slavery, had slaves. That was just blew my mind because we were always the good guys growing up. You know, Stuart Peterson wouldn't have done that to put it in my mind. So hearing all this and going to the Swedish rescue after I listened to that John and I know I'm probably

Paul [00:58:58] spending too much time on this.

John Dehlin [00:59:00] No, the Swedish rescue is super important. You can listen to it on Mormon stories, you can find it on Mormonthink as well. It's really important to just get a sense for the pain of the Swedish members during this time. But also just the utter inadequacy of the answers from people at the top of the church. Nobody knows more than Marlin Jensen or Richard Turley. None of the apostles. And they had nothing.

Guest [00:59:25] And yes, they've come up with essays since, but had they had something, they would have saved.

Paul [00:59:30] And basically they ended by saying, okay,

Guest [00:59:32] let us know within a couple weeks

Paul [00:59:33] whether you're in or out, just let us know.

Guest [00:59:36] And that's where it ended. And my shelf, really, John, just disintegrated. Then all the hopes and dreams I had that somehow I would find find out why I didn't feel like everybody else, why I was the weirdo that couldn't get in, why I saw different things in the Book of Mormon than other things, why I was a bad priesthood holder when my wife went to young women's conferences. And other conferences. Sorry. But it just hit me. And then I'm thinking, what do I do? And this is through August of 14. I'm just devastated. I would spend lots of time by myself and I would just have so much emotions and I had no idea what to do. I would come home and my sweet wife would greet me and she would have no idea what I was going through. And it was just. Just killing me inside.

John Dehlin [01:00:28] Did you have any idea?

Lisa [01:00:29] No.

John Dehlin [01:00:30] You had no idea?

Lisa [01:00:32] I actually had started working. I had gone back to work at this time and I worked at Kyle High School. And I was really busy, kind of wrapped up in my own life. And to my discredit, I was not paying that much attention to his sadness.

John Dehlin [01:00:50] So here's sort of a major dilemma that people face, which is I don't believe anymore, but if I tell my wife, she might leave me and it might wreck the family. And so you stuff and you stuff and you stuff. But any mental health professional will tell you when you stuff, when you're not authentic, when you're hiding things from the people you love most, that's when anxiety and depression really kick in. So that's when people really get between a rock and a hard place. So how'd you get out?

Guest [01:01:18] There was a major thing that happened and it goes to things Lisa has studied. And I'm just setting her up to talk about a moment of unease. Talk about that.

Lisa [01:01:27] So I was the young women's president at this time, and they had given us the assignment in ward council to do this, our weekly sealing assignment. So us as a presidency needed to go do the sealing assignment. And I was already pretty burned out in this calling. We had been having three hour ward councils twice a month, plus our presidency meetings, plus Sunday meetings, Tuesday activities. And now they were asking us to do the ceiling assignment. And in my presidency, we didn't have. A lot of.

Lisa [01:02:02] A lot of the ladies didn't have husbands or they weren't active. And so I had put it off. I told them no, we couldn't do it. And then they would just reassign us for another month. So finally it came down to we were the last organization that hadn't done it. We had to do it. And I had told Paul about it and he had already said, no, I don't want to go. And finally I said, paul, you have to go. I have no one else. That would be really bad if I had to go get another man to come with me to do my sealing assignment.

Lisa [01:02:32] You have to go. And it was at that time that I saw the pain, what did you see? I finally recognized this was not just causing. It wasn't because he was lazy or didn't like the temple. This was causing him physical and mental pain.

John Dehlin [01:02:50] What'd you see?

Paul [01:02:50] How did you see?

Lisa [01:02:51] I could see it in his face. I finally recognized this is real pain. It's not laziness. It's not just, he's a bad priesthood holder. This is hurting him, and I'm going to do some damage to him if I force him to go. But I did. But I said, honey, I get it. I am so sorry. This is the last time. Just go with me to do this one ceiling assignment. It's not an endowment. We'll just do this one sealing assignment and I'll never make you go again. I'll never commit you to have to go ever again. I knew that this would be the last time that I went with him to the temple, but I also knew that that would help him too. So he went with me. And it turned out to be an okay.

Guest [01:03:43] It wasn't too bad because happily we got a lot of fun names like George Washington and Martha, whatever. And I was another guy that made it fun. So it was okay. But it was really grateful. I was so grateful to hear her

Paul [01:03:57] say this was the last time.

Lisa [01:03:59] So then he had had these. These feelings drop me to. And it was so I knew that he was in real pain. So on labor day weekend of 2014, Kyle was gone again somewhere. He was living a busy senior year, so he wasn't home a lot.

Lisa [01:04:25] And we were just home together, working out in the yard. And he said, I have something. I have a YouTube video that's about why people leave the church. And honestly, I thought we were the only ones going through this. I didn't know other people were having these feelings, too. I thought I was the only wife with a husband like this.

Lisa [01:04:53] And he said, would you just mind listening to this one? Just to understand what's happening and where we go from here, how we can keep our marriage together after this. So it was Mormon stories, 400, the survey, and. And I'm big on statistics and facts and what will really work and make it right for us. So I was willing to listen to it.

Paul [01:05:17] I was so grateful that she was

Guest [01:05:19] just going that far. And really my intentions was nothing but charting out a path for us to move forward. Forward without me having to be in

Paul [01:05:26] a bad place mentally.

John Dehlin [01:05:29] So was that hard for you to watch that? Because I know people who are just like, never going to watch Anything that isn't church approved. What? I think maybe you've already mentioned it. Just seeing his pain. But what made you willing to watch that?

Guest [01:05:44] Great question.

Lisa [01:05:45] I think it was his pain, but I didn't look at it as anti Mormon in any way. It was just a survey and a study and facts and figures.

John Dehlin [01:05:56] So you hadn't heard of me before. Okay.

Guest [01:05:59] And you were also having some struggles with your calling. In terms of three hours, I had

Lisa [01:06:06] finally had a moment of unease that my brain would say, okay, maybe I need to look at something different because

John Dehlin [01:06:15] your calling was stressing you out.

Lisa [01:06:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:17] Okay. So you watch this video and.

Lisa [01:06:20] And that was like, all new to me. I really thought people left because they were lazy or had sinned or apathy or that I thought that's why people were leaving the church. I didn't know that there were any historical problems or doctrinal problems. And so at the end that we finished listening to that, I said to him, okay, do you have any more? I'll listen to something else.

John Dehlin [01:06:48] Did that video make you feel unsettled, scared, happy?

Lisa [01:06:54] To me, it kind of opened my mind, and it made me feel like I had learned something new. Learned new information that I didn't know before.

John Dehlin [01:07:03] But for 29 years before, you'd been walling off any. You just had a wall up.

Lisa [01:07:09] But I think I did that in my head without thinking about it, because I just didn't even know that this. I hadn't even let that come in, that that was a possibility.

John Dehlin [01:07:21] Okay. So it must have been a combination of seeing his pain being a little bit worn down in your calling and learning something that was new, that wasn't threatening.

Lisa [01:07:30] Right.

John Dehlin [01:07:31] Okay.

Lisa [01:07:31] Right, Right.

John Dehlin [01:07:32] So you said what else?

Lisa [01:07:33] I said, all right, listen to one more.

Guest [01:07:36] And it didn't just happen overnight because we've been facing this for 29 years to an extent, but just really hard since about April. And she knew how important this was for me, finally. Although I think if I tried to do this in July, she wouldn't have done it. Well, she said she would listen to one more. And I was just so nervous all the time.

Lisa [01:07:56] He had said things like, so you're going to the temple to. To redeem this one dead person, but how many people are there out in the world? And will we ever really be able. So we're gonna do this in the millennium, so why do you even need to go do this? Isn't this just busy work? So he maybe had put some of those thoughts in my head.

Paul [01:08:18] That's my snarkiness.

Lisa [01:08:20] Yeah. Some of the snarkiness probably was in there somewhere.

John Dehlin [01:08:24] Okay.

Lisa [01:08:25] So the next one he put on

Guest [01:08:27] for me, I had to go for the best one. I mean, the one I thought would. Would help the most, which would be Jeremy Reynolds.

Lisa [01:08:33] Jeremy Reynolds.

John Dehlin [01:08:34] Okay, and what was that like for you?

Lisa [01:08:37] I just sat there with my jaw open. I did not know any of these things. This was all brand new.

John Dehlin [01:08:46] Do you remember some of the things you learned at the time?

Lisa [01:08:48] Polyandry. Didn't even know what that was. Didn't have any idea. The Book of Abraham. I thought that that was really exactly what was in the Book of Abraham. And then when it got to the end, I finally realized, as Jeremy said, it wasn't just one thing, that Paul didn't have a problem. There wasn't just one tree. It was a whole forest of problems that were out there. And then things that had been on my shelf, like, oh, don't even think about that one. Just put it up there. I started to think about, and everything kind of clicked into place for me. And I could see he made it

Paul [01:09:31] all up that fast.

John Dehlin [01:09:34] So how many weeks or months did it take for you to arrive at that conclusion?

Lisa [01:09:38] That was that day.

Guest [01:09:39] What?

John Dehlin [01:09:40] Four hours.

Guest [01:09:40] Four hours.

John Dehlin [01:09:41] It was Jeremy Reynolds podcast and you're done.

Paul [01:09:46] 400.

John Dehlin [01:09:48] You watched those in the same day? Yeah, that was the same day.

Guest [01:09:51] Every day.

Paul [01:09:51] That was all one day.

Kyle [01:09:53] Really exciting.

John Dehlin [01:09:53] So what was that like for you, emotionally? You're like Energizer Bunny, TBM Mormon. And then six hours later, he made it all up.

Lisa [01:10:02] It was kind of a weight lifted off my shoulders.

Guest [01:10:05] What?

Lisa [01:10:06] It really was.

Guest [01:10:08] What?

Lisa [01:10:09] Because Paul had been suffering for all this time, and it was a weight lifted that, wow, we don't have to do this anymore.

John Dehlin [01:10:19] You were a little tired.

Lisa [01:10:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:21] Were you a little tired being the Energizer Bunny? Yeah. Were your batteries running out?

Lisa [01:10:25] I could have kept going.

Guest [01:10:27] What would it make you think about? My journey.

Lisa [01:10:31] Then I stood up to walk over to him, to tell him, oh, my word, he made it all up. And then it hit me so hard how much Paul loved me. Because if he was willing to stay with me and put up with my dogmatic view of this, when he had had all these feelings and known this for so long, that is a lot of love. I just felt huge, huge amounts of love from him, because I don't know if it would have been the other way around if I would have stuck that, fought that hard, but I realized how hard he had been fighting for our marriage.

John Dehlin [01:11:22] Paul, what Was that like for you to have a marriage?

Guest [01:11:24] My heart grew 10 sizes. I was the Grinch. The Grinch. I've never been happier in my life. And not that we haven't had problems since, but we've gone from that moment learning new things together. And we'd like to just recognize that. We know that a lot of marriages aren't this way and we have tremendous empathy. That could have easily been me, but to go on this journey with my wife has been miraculous.

Guest [01:11:53] It's just been really exciting. We've learned new things together, we've grown together. It's been really great. But to see her. All my anxieties about what happened, our marriage were very concerning. And so I was just. I can't express how much a love I had for her. And for anyone who's doubting that this is our truth, this is from the heart, this is real, what we have together. And I really, really appreciate what you've done that made it easier. But also that she would open her mind to this. Which knowing how we were raised, I was shocked. I did not expect that. All I was hoping for was some way to get peace together.

John Dehlin [01:12:38] So back to you, Lisa. What is it like to have your whole worldview collapse though all these things you had been fighting for, all these things about heaven, this church you had been fighting for for so long. What's it like when that just evaporates for you? For many, it's devastating.

Lisa [01:12:59] Yeah. So amongst the I can save my marriage, how cool this is to learn all this new stuff was the rug pulled out from under me. I don't know what's going to happen to me now. I don't know how if we're going to be a family forever. All those things, things pulled out from under me were huge. I had to re evaluate. I was a little naive because I just thought no one would find out that we knew this, that we could just. Cuz we had a son on a mission during this time and that was

Guest [01:13:41] a lot of anxiety.

Lisa [01:13:42] We had this son getting ready to go on a mission. That was his plan. Next was to go and I kind of just thought Paul and I would share this little bit of information but just keep living our lives. And that was very naive.

John Dehlin [01:13:57] But it wasn't devastating to you?

Lisa [01:13:58] Oh, it was.

John Dehlin [01:14:00] It was devastating.

Lisa [01:14:01] Yes.

Paul [01:14:01] She had a pit in her stomach.

Lisa [01:14:03] So I've always been a really pretty, emotionally sound person. Never. And my world just started to kind of crack. But the worst for me because I kept just thinking we'll just share this information, we'll just know this. But the worst was when Christmas came.

Guest [01:14:25] Yeah. Should I go from there, John?

John Dehlin [01:14:29] So I think what we're gonna do is we're gonna go ahead and wrap up this episode. So this is good. Now that we have you all on the edges of your seats waiting to hear what happens next, we will just sort of close this first episode. We'll thank Paul and Lisa and Kyle for their contribution so far.

John Dehlin [01:14:52] And what we will do is, is we'll go to the next episode and so you make sure and tune in for it. We're going to be talking about how they handled this within their family, how they handled this with their son on the mission, how they handled this with their other people. We'll. We'll learn about Kyle's experience as well as he was starting to feel some very strong and deep things and starting to show some troubling signs to his family.

John Dehlin [01:15:25] So, yeah, part one will wrap up sort of with Lisa's coming onto the same page as Paul and. And we'll finish up. Well, we'll continue on to part two where we talk about how they dealt with the aftermath. But thank you for joining us for this first episode. Please put your comments and Questions up on MormonStories.org thanks for all those who are listening and please join us soon for part two of this very ordinary family's extraordinary journey in their Mormon transition. Thanks, guys. This has been fun. I can't wait for part two.

Guest [01:16:01] Thank you.

Part Two: Polygamy Essays and Deepening Doubts

Part 2 of 3 · Ep. 651

John Dehlin [00:00:15] Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. It's still September 7th, I'm told, and we're in part two of our interview with An Ordinary Family's extraordinary journey regarding a Mormon transition. And we're here today again with Lisa and Paul and Kyle.

John Dehlin [00:00:38] Three other children aren't present, but we just, in part one, went through an epic journey learning about Paul and Lisa growing up in a small, rural Utah town, about their marriage and about, you know, their experiences in the temple and in their early married years. We learned about how Paul just never quite totally felt comfortable in all the aspects of the church, even though he had a very orthodox upbringing. And how slowly that came to wear on his marriage with Lisa over time, through 29 years of marriage. We also learned about how older son, who we're not naming names for the people who aren't present, we're not using last name just to sort of to try and minimize any harm that could come from this podcast.

John Dehlin [00:01:30] But we learned about how older son left the faith and how that was dealt with. And then we learned about how Paul and Lisa both tried to deal with differences in faith up until the point where Paul's faith, his shelf collapsed in 2014 when he stumbled upon things like, well, Brad Wilcox, which is very dangerous, and Steve Robinson, which is also potentially catastrophic. But also the Hans Mattson interview in the New York Times, the Mormon Stories interviews around the Swedish,

Kyle [00:02:10] what was it called?

John Dehlin [00:02:11] The Swedish rescue rescue, and how that sort of sent Paul into a tailspin for several months. Finally, he got up the courage to talk to Lisa. And very miraculously, perhaps Lisa was willing to listen to a few things that Paul wanted to share with her. She sensed how much pain he was experiencing and that moved her, to her credit. And watching Mormon Stories episode 400, which was a review of the survey we did for the Swedish Rescue, why people leave the church.

John Dehlin [00:02:49] That was helpful to her. And then followed up by the Jeremy Runnels CES letter interview on Mormon stories. Lisa went From Energizer Bunny TVM for 30, 40 years to everything unraveling. And so that's where we left off the story.

John Dehlin [00:03:10] I bring you back now to Lisa, Paul and Kyle and the next issue. That sort of we sort of where we go on the timeline now is around sort of Christmas 2014, and you now have your older son who has not been believing for a while what else is going on in your family around fall, winter of 2014.

Lisa [00:03:42] So even though we're happy, our marriage is wonderful, things are really starting to unravel. For me, as far as now, I don't know what to believe. This is really hard. But we're pretty excited to talk to Eric. He's coming home. Thanksgiving for Thanksgiving. And

Paul [00:04:08] you read. And before Eric came home, you read Todd Compton's book as well, right?

Lisa [00:04:13] Yes. Yes. I had started reading Mistakes were Made, but not by me.

John Dehlin [00:04:19] Okay.

Lisa [00:04:20] I read Todd Compton's book, and it's a pretty hard read because it's so emotional.

John Dehlin [00:04:27] So you start reading these books after your faith crisis?

Lisa [00:04:31] Yeah, well, because I just wanted to learn more. I just thought I was just beginning my journey to learn these things that other that they had talked about, but I didn't know anything about, so I needed to study them. I'm pretty good at if there's something wrong with one of my children. I read every book that I can to fix them. So I needed to, like, read all about this to make sure I knew what I was talking about.

Paul [00:04:57] Sorry to interrupt, but in November, the essay on polygamy came out, and that was. You mentioned that was important because Todd Compton's book was referenced in the footnotes.

Lisa [00:05:06] Yes. So then I felt like it was okay to read that book because it had been referenced in the footnotes. So I was still going.

John Dehlin [00:05:13] Thank you. Gospel topics essays.

Lisa [00:05:15] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:05:15] All right.

Lisa [00:05:16] So I was still going. Church sources. But that was referenced so I could read that. We were excited for our older son to come home, but also worried that he might be mad at us because we had raised him so strict and so orthodo. And now we're, like, saying, oh, never mind. But it turned out when he did come home for Thanksgiving, he was very kind and thrilled, and it's.

John Dehlin [00:05:45] How did you have that conversation? What was that conversation like?

Lisa [00:05:48] It's very memorable.

John Dehlin [00:05:49] We. How did you break it to him?

Lisa [00:05:52] We took him down. We were getting ready for Thanksgiving dinner at a different place than our house, and we needed to go set up the tables and chairs. And of course, we left Kyle at home because he wasn't a part of this. We'd been secretly doing all of this stuff.

Paul [00:06:08] So we thought.

John Dehlin [00:06:09] And daughter.

Paul [00:06:10] She's in California.

Lisa [00:06:11] California.

John Dehlin [00:06:12] Okay. She's in California. And is there another son?

Lisa [00:06:16] Son on the mission.

John Dehlin [00:06:17] Son is on the mission.

Paul [00:06:18] Son is on the mission.

John Dehlin [00:06:19] Okay, okay.

Paul [00:06:20] Which is in our constant thoughts.

John Dehlin [00:06:21] Okay, so you're talking to older son.

Lisa [00:06:24] Yep. Who's never believed. And we take him down there and act like it's a pretty big deal. We're like, son, we need to sit you down and have a.

John Dehlin [00:06:31] He's Thinking divorce affair. He's thinking someone's dad. Yes.

Lisa [00:06:36] Yes, exactly. Exactly. So when we told him what it

Paul [00:06:41] really was, we started off by apologizing. And you were right, son.

Lisa [00:06:49] We should have listened to you. Right.

Paul [00:06:52] Thank you for loving us.

Lisa [00:06:53] He couldn't believe it. He was totally blown away.

Paul [00:06:57] Thrilled.

Lisa [00:06:57] Thrilled beyond measures.

Paul [00:07:00] Huge smiles.

Lisa [00:07:00] Big smiles. Happy.

Paul [00:07:02] You know, the whole thing had kind of separated him inadvertently from the family. And this brought him back totally into at least our part of the family.

Lisa [00:07:13] Our conversations that we could have were amazing. To hear what he had been thinking and how his mind had processed this. Because before that, I'd never let him talk about that kind of stuff. And he had never. He'd been very respectful and not talked about it around us. So it was wonderful. It was a great time. Really good. We've had fabulous conversations with him since.

Paul [00:07:36] And his issues were more cultural and scientific rather than historical. Just logically, it never made sense. That's just how he is.

John Dehlin [00:07:47] So, just incidentally, oftentimes people associate a faith crisis with separating the family. But in this case, it helps bring the family.

Paul [00:07:56] In this case. Yes.

Lisa [00:07:58] Because he was out.

John Dehlin [00:07:59] At least in some cases. Right. So you two are feeling more united than ever. Right. And now oldest son feels united with you too.

Lisa [00:08:07] Right?

Paul [00:08:08] Right, Right, Right, Right.

John Dehlin [00:08:09] That's a positive thing. Right.

Paul [00:08:11] It's a huge bother.

Lisa [00:08:12] Three of us.

John Dehlin [00:08:13] Right? That's three. All right. Real, real quick. What? Were there any doozies in. In Sacred Loneliness for you? What did that do with your shelf having collapsed? What did In Sacred Loneliness do for you?

A Difficult Christmas and Coming Out to Family

Lisa [00:08:26] It. So finding out about the husbands who. I can't imagine the pain Paul would feel if someone came to him and me and my. Got to do everything the prophet says. Said, yes, I guess I better go. So the pain of the husbands was so real to me.

Paul [00:08:47] Henry Jacobs was a big one.

Lisa [00:08:49] We didn't really. I don't think people think about that in polyandry.

John Dehlin [00:08:54] So the husbands whose wives were given to Joseph or who went with Joseph,

Lisa [00:08:58] that was huge for me, that pain. And then the young girls. I couldn't fathom the young girls and reading their diaries and hearing how they gave up their life and really didn't know what they were getting into when they made that bargain.

Paul [00:09:15] I remember you hurt. I'm sorry. I remember you mentioning the Partridge sisters that were married. But then Emma was talked into it and she picked them and they had to get remarried.

Lisa [00:09:27] Yeah.

Paul [00:09:28] So that after she said it was okay and the whole farce of that to Joseph Smith, he'd Already he'd already married the Partridge. Partridge sisters.

John Dehlin [00:09:37] But he didn't tell Emma.

Paul [00:09:38] Didn't tell Emma.

Lisa [00:09:39] And finally she gives her consent.

John Dehlin [00:09:41] Then he finally convinced Emma to do it. So Joseph had to marry them again as a. As what?

Paul [00:09:48] Well, just as a celestial marriage.

John Dehlin [00:09:53] Just as like a show just for a show.

Paul [00:09:55] But then afterwards, Emma didn't treat them with kindness. And it wasn't very long before they were out of the house. But this was a pattern of bringing girls, of grooming girls and bringing them to the house and having them be there as caretakers of the house or working with the children. And then pretty soon, a marriage.

Lisa [00:10:13] And another thing that was really hard for me was that emma was the 23rd sealed wife. That was huge for me. If I'm the number one wife, then I should be the one that sealed to him first. But because he kept this secret even from her, she was only number 23. And the whole garment thing, that was related to why polygamy and the temple thing and keeping it all secret.

John Dehlin [00:10:42] What were the garments? What did they have to do with polygamy?

Lisa [00:10:45] Only the people that were practicing polygamy were in the secret club that wore them.

John Dehlin [00:10:52] Oh, okay.

Paul [00:10:53] And the whole temple ceremony started out as a way to keep polygamy or celestial marriage secret. And they used a tool that was available to them. And my worry is the future that will be. The narrative that the church teaches is that Joseph just used whatever was available to him. And. And I had no idea about this, but the Masonic rituals. Joseph had just become a master mason several weeks before he put that into the temple. And that was one of those things I'd asked my dad about who I love and honor, but he would say, you know, they trace it back to the time of King Solomon. And I know we've heard that narrative, but that is not true. The other thing that was startling and. Sorry to stay, honey, but if you read the narrative of the endowment ceremony and the Masonic ceremony at that time, it is almost verbatim.

John Dehlin [00:11:50] Yeah. Okay.

Lisa [00:11:52] So we had this thing happen at Christmas that was awful. And we hope by sharing our story, we can help other people because we really messed up.

John Dehlin [00:12:03] So oldest son's happy. You three are united. Something bad happens at Christmas. Yeah.

Paul [00:12:09] Yeah. And I gotta take blame for it. So I'm gonna tell the story because I'm the one that messed up. We pick up our darling daughter and her husband at the airport with our two twin grandchildren. And that's the thing that I don't think a lot of people listening to These podcasts get.

Paul [00:12:26] When you transition later in life and you have adult children, it's a whole different narrative and a whole different demographic of how to handle them. You don't have control. They're adults. You must take them as they are. But I'm being. Lisa and I are just learning all this new stuff and almost the missionary zeal. Even though we're not telling anybody, we're just learning all this stuff and it makes such clear sense to us. So I'm leaning up, picking up a toy off the ground for one of the grandkids, and my daughter sees a glimpse of my new underwear. It's really sad it comes to that, but she goes to her mom and is really hurt by this.

Paul [00:13:02] So I waited for an opportune time once we were home and to try to just tell her. And my thought was, boy, I know all this stuff. It makes such clear sense to me. If I can just tell it in a certain way.

Paul [00:13:15] She won't necessarily agree, but she'll say, boy, dad, if I saw it the way you did, I would understand why you're going on this journey. And it wasn't just me. It was that I was taking her mom, who was the stalwart, with me. She always knew I was kind of rocky, right? But it was bringing mom too. And so I just.

John Dehlin [00:13:32] She's been sealed in the temple.

Paul [00:13:34] Sealed in the temple.

John Dehlin [00:13:35] Had kids at this point.

Paul [00:13:37] Yep, two twin grandbabies. Gorgeous kids. Love. Lovely, lovely. Our daughter is the best in the world. I just love her to pieces. And so I just basically word vomited all over her all this stuff with the intent of just seeking under to be understood. That desire to be understood in this situation is so huge.

Paul [00:13:57] But once again, in Lisa's brain, books that she read tells us that unless somebody has a moment of unease when they're willing to look at life a little differently, it doesn't do any good to throw all this on them. I should have validated her concern. I should have just loved her where she was and sought for her love with me where I was without throwing this on. But because I did what I did and I take full responsibility, I hurt her really, really bad.

Paul [00:14:27] The difference between attacking the church and attacking a person inside the church is not very big. It felt like I attacked her personally. She was hurt. And I know perhaps even sharing this such a private moment with the world is going to hurt her further. And that's not my intent. But also I just want to use. And I know this situation is different, but please think about this, if your loving, believing members aren't where you are, they won't understand and it will damage relationship. We have another example later on where we feel we did it better and we had the opposite results that we'll get to, but we've come a long way.

Paul [00:15:08] She's a great young lady. We're making progress, but we still have a long ways to go, and we're going to lead with love. That's the plan for the future. But right now, it was really hard.

John Dehlin [00:15:21] Now, just to be clear, you don't regret telling her that you guys stopped believing? Is that correct? Like, do you feel like it was the right thing to do to let her know where you were without giving the details?

Paul [00:15:35] And we haven't really talked about that. We need to back up just a little bit. So when we first went down this road, we didn't know a lot, right? And so our first access was Mormon stories. And then also we started getting on Reddit. Reddit was very helpful.

Paul [00:15:49] Not in an anonymous way, without real life situations, but one of the advices we got on Mormon stories and also other places was to take it slow. And in our minds, this is really, really important. Our missionary son, we knew in our culture how important coming home from a mission is and having that homecoming.

Paul [00:16:11] And we've met with other parents of missionaries, and Lisa will talk about one in just a moment. But every situation is different. What we did may not work with everybody, but in our situation, every letter we would get from our son was clear that he was loving his mission. I would write a letter to him saying, son, you don't need to be strictly obedient if you need to take a day off or if you need to go do something. And he'd write back saying, no, dad, you're wrong. The only way to happiness is through obedience.

Lisa [00:16:38] First law of Heaven.

Paul [00:16:39] First law of Heaven. And it was very clear that his mission president had more control or more influence on him than I did at that time. And so we chose to take it slow, to stay active and fly under the radar as much as we could and keep our integrity and allow him in June to come home from his mission. So that was our plan. We felt that that was an act of love on our part.

John Dehlin [00:17:00] Okay, so it's interesting because I was asking you about your daughter and whether you were still glad you. Whether you wish you would have come out to her without giving all the details. And then you went to your son. Was there a connection there? Because you're saying with your son you feel like you respected.

Paul [00:17:16] We wanted to wait until he got home.

Lisa [00:17:18] So probably with our daughter. We shouldn't have told her.

John Dehlin [00:17:21] Shouldn't have told her anything right then. Not even that you were both struggling. We should have because that's a big question. People are, do I tell? Who do I tell? How do I tell? And I would just think, on the one hand you'd be hiding from her where you were. On the other hand, what on the

Lisa [00:17:40] other hand we blew it like this. I don't know that there was an

Kyle [00:17:44] easy way, but if you would have dealt with it the way you did with Riker. I meant with the other brother.

Paul [00:17:50] The plan was to wait till Riker got home and then tell her and to give it more time, tell her and tell everyone at the same time. At the same time.

John Dehlin [00:17:59] Okay, so maybe it was too early,

Paul [00:18:01] but the way it happened, I guess the good side is it did happen. The pain was going to happen at some point. We could have lessened it, as Kyle said.

John Dehlin [00:18:08] Well, the only, the only part I'm trying to get out is that sometimes, you know, when people ask me how to do the, the coming out process for a non believer, the advice I give is to just give little as information possible. Yeah. So you basically just, you say, you know mom and you know mom and I, our views have changed about the church. We no longer see it as we used to and that's it. And then it's just like, but we love you. We're never going to do anything to hurt your faith. We're never going to tell you anything about details. We're never going to say anything that's going to challenge you at all.

John Dehlin [00:18:47] Even if you ask, we won't really want to tell you. Just know that we're here to love you and support you. Our love for you doesn't change at all. You have our full support. And that way you let the information out, but it's followed up by disarming them, making them feel loved and secured. And so I guess I'm saying if you had done that, maybe it still wasn't the right time.

Paul [00:19:12] Hopefully it would have been after Christmas, not three days before and had the whole Christmas right before Christmas. Yeah, Christmas was really a tough time when we're trying to use that to bring the family closer together in it. We had the opposite. So. Yes, but after Christmas we could have, but we were filling it out, but it just kind of felt it happened faster and I, I did not do what you said.

John Dehlin [00:19:33] So, so, so less detail. Don't, don't you Know, people want to write these 15 page letters and they want to. My experience is that almost never works, you know? Yeah. So. So that's an important lesson learned and I'm glad you shared it. I'm sorry that had to happen, but

Lisa [00:19:54] we did better with the other one.

Paul [00:19:57] We will get to that.

John Dehlin [00:19:58] Okay.

Lisa [00:19:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:59] So.

Lisa [00:20:00] So at this time, that kind of put me in crisis mode. My daughter now didn't love me. It just turned my world upside down. What have I done? Then I started to think.

Paul [00:20:12] Couldn't sleep at night.

Lisa [00:20:13] Do I take the blue pill and go back in? Do I just pretend?

John Dehlin [00:20:17] Because she's changing how she treats you at this point?

Lisa [00:20:19] Oh, yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:20] How does she change?

Lisa [00:20:22] So she goes back to California and that's it. And if ever there's contact, I call her. But.

John Dehlin [00:20:31] So she just kind of. She. She throws up a wall.

Lisa [00:20:33] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:20:34] Not in a malicious way.

Paul [00:20:35] No, no, no.

Kyle [00:20:35] She's protecting herself.

Paul [00:20:37] Protecting herself?

Lisa [00:20:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:39] Okay.

Lisa [00:20:39] And now I am the enemy here because I think this way, like dad and.

John Dehlin [00:20:45] But you hadn't talked to her. No, she just knew how.

Lisa [00:20:48] You know, we did this all together,

Paul [00:20:50] but I was this. Mom.

John Dehlin [00:20:53] You were all together.

Lisa [00:20:55] We're all together. But this did, like, completely put me in. I was not. I had always been very stable. Now I had a pit in my stomach 24 7. And it was in January that I went to therapy. That was.

John Dehlin [00:21:13] So how is that to be estranged from your daughter?

Lisa [00:21:16] It is awful. It's still awful. She's completely stolen from me. And even though.

John Dehlin [00:21:25] What do you mean by that?

Lisa [00:21:27] We can only talk about the weather, but I know there's so many families that it's so much worse that now they're. They keep the grandkids from them or they don't want anything to do with them. It's getting better. But at Christmas it will be two years, so we hope it's getting better.

John Dehlin [00:21:45] But at the time you said you were going to therapy, why did you need to go to therapy? Or why.

Lisa [00:21:51] My world had shattered, had fallen apart. And I really thought that maybe it was just better to pretend like this all didn't happen. And for Paul and I to have our own little life in our house, but to just pretend like I was still in and believed all of this because that had been ripped away from me.

Paul [00:22:14] Tell about your calling.

Lisa [00:22:15] I was Young Women's president and I had asked to be released. And it took forever for them to release me. So I could just do as little as possible. Although I was teaching the Come follow me curriculum. Well, this is when I was still a young women's president and I was teaching the come follow me curriculum, which that was even a shelf breaker, because it's all about getting the kids to testify and to say things and forcing them to say what they did and how they used the spirit. And that wasn't going so well. The girls didn't want to say those things, would say things they didn't mean just because they hated the pauses in the lesson. But finally, I got released the end of December. And then how.

John Dehlin [00:23:04] How was that conversation with your bishop?

Lisa [00:23:06] So it was with the counselor that was over me, not the bishop. And I'd been in there a long time, so I felt like it was an easy out. I'd never asked to be released from a calling before, but it was. I just needed to say, okay, this has been long enough. This is a long time to serve. I'm ready to take a break.

John Dehlin [00:23:31] Okay. So you didn't tell them about your future? No, no, no, no. All right, all right.

Supporting a Child on a Mission During Faith Crisis

Paul [00:23:34] We're trying to make it till June. That's the goal.

Lisa [00:23:36] When he released me, he called me to primary. So I thought, yeah, I can do that. They're teaching New Testament. I can love. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:45] Happiness.

Lisa [00:23:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:47] Okay. Okay.

Lisa [00:23:49] So therapy was huge. That was huge.

John Dehlin [00:23:53] How did therapy help you?

Lisa [00:23:54] Oh, I did not know how to deal with those family members. I didn't know what skills to use to talk to them. I think in my family, it always been, don't talk about tough subjects, so just avoid those. There's always an elephant in the room and just ignore it. And so that wasn't working. And that's not the relationship. I wanted to have an authentic relationship with my family, and that wasn't working, so. And always feeling like I was depressed and had a pit in my stomach, and it helped a ton. But the problem was we had to go a long ways every time to therapy.

John Dehlin [00:24:36] How did you find a therapist? Did you just take anyone or so on?

Paul [00:24:41] So we actually started listening to Mormon expressions as well. And on John's website, he had, for a time, a listing of some therapists that understood faith transitions. And so Mary Fisher was on there, and she's been wonderful for our family. She's in Salt Lake.

John Dehlin [00:24:58] And I just want to add that now we have the Mormon Mental Health Association. You can just Google Mormon Mental Health Association. They have a provider list. They have providers by state. And you can find a therapist in many of the states in the US who are vetted enough so that you can sort of feel safe that They're a good starting point for a therapist. There are also therapists and coaches that are willing to sort of counsel you across state lines and you can find as well on Mormon Mental Health Association. So there are lots of options you have, but get a therapist or a coach or a counselor because it can make a huge difference.

Lisa [00:25:41] Definitely. And at this time, Kyle, who had been just a nice, happy, fun loving boy, started being really mean to us.

John Dehlin [00:25:52] Okay, so let me just. And so we've got son on a mission. He's coming home in June.

Paul [00:25:56] June. That's the goal.

John Dehlin [00:25:57] You blew Christmas.

Paul [00:25:59] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:25:59] But you're trying to recover. You're going to therapy, Lisa. And as you're kind of just trying to wait out those six months to then, you know, not spoil, you know,

Paul [00:26:11] missionary son's experience, we considered that an act of love that we could do for him.

John Dehlin [00:26:15] Yeah.

Paul [00:26:16] Is let him have his day as long as we could not be hypocrites and stay.

John Dehlin [00:26:21] So really quickly. That's an interesting question because a lot of people are like, do I tell him? Do I not? If I've got a kid on a mission, what do I do? Do they deserve to know? Will they feel like we're lying to them, etc. And you made the decision to be as minimally disruptive as possible.

Lisa [00:26:38] That's actually why the first time we ever posted on Reddit was, what do you think? What about this? And actually a missionary mom, a mom who had a missionary and had this exact situation, contacted me and she even gave me her phone number and said, I'd love to talk to you. And I talked to her. She was amazing because I thought we were the only one that had done this. But there's a lot of parents out there who have done this exact thing. They're the ones that have the faith crisis. And she helped walk me through it. This is what we did. Gave me hope. He's home now. This is where we're at. She was amazing.

John Dehlin [00:27:15] Any. Any tips for the audience who have children?

Lisa [00:27:17] Huge love, love.

Paul [00:27:21] So I have with me, which we don't have time for, but I have copies of the letters I would email to send my son every month, every week. And they're just full of positive, loving messages. So don't cut off conversations with your child, but there's lots of things you can do with full authenticity to encourage and love your son, to have healthy relationships, to do things that. To keep him happy and healthy, to take good care of himself mentally and physically, to enjoy the members, to treat people with kindness look for service opportunities. And I worked really hard at my letters. On the other hand, I think it really boils down to that missionary, if the missionary is hating their mission and you can tell, and there's some people on Reddit that say that we would have been up to get them the next day, but that was not our case.

Paul [00:28:13] And we really felt, had we inserted ourselves in that environment, which is so intense. And so as I know, and as you know, mom and dad showing up there like we did with our daughter, I am convinced it would been disastrous.

John Dehlin [00:28:28] Okay, so if your child is loving their mission, super happy, super devoted to their mission president, maybe that's not the environment to ever disclose or to disrupt

Paul [00:28:42] and even to write the letter. You can't control that environment there. And they're in a bubble world. They don't even remember. They only remember rosy things of home. They need to get home, get their feet on the ground and be back in the world, in my opinion, to have that tough conversation, which we'll talk about in a moment.

John Dehlin [00:29:02] And I have heard of mission presidents sometimes putting wedges between missionaries and parents when the parents disclose to the missionary. And you just don't want to be getting between someone and their mission president.

Paul [00:29:16] Oh, that's a tough one. And their beliefs, you'll lose that one.

John Dehlin [00:29:19] Yeah. So, but on the other hand, I like, I like this idea that if you think your kid is depressed or anxious, maybe even suicidal, sick, not doing well, hating their mission, that's a different consideration.

Paul [00:29:32] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:29:32] That wasn't your case.

Paul [00:29:33] That wasn't our case.

John Dehlin [00:29:33] So respect your kid right where they are.

Paul [00:29:36] They're an adult as well.

John Dehlin [00:29:37] Okay.

Lisa [00:29:37] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:29:38] Good. So did he ever, did he ever get a hint? Did you ever? So, you know, sometimes they get a little clue. Maybe they start asking you, how's your calling? How's your sir? They want to, they want to try and get a temperature for your faithfulness. Did that not happen to you?

Lisa [00:29:53] He kind of the last six months, got so involved in his mission, he didn't write home a lot. And I don't know that he even really read.

John Dehlin [00:30:01] Okay, good. Okay.

Kyle [00:30:02] And I don't even think that that would be a question like that wouldn't really even have, like, you wouldn't have really needed to question my parents faithfulness. So I don't think that that would have even occurred to him to be like, oh, my parents, especially mom. Especially my mom.

John Dehlin [00:30:16] Okay. Okay. All right. So you kind of dodged a bullet.

Paul [00:30:19] Yeah, we had arguments back and forth on obedience and a few things, but they were always friendly. And so I could sense where he was.

John Dehlin [00:30:24] You were basically saying, don't be blindly obedient.

Paul [00:30:27] Yes. I mean, I was trying.

John Dehlin [00:30:31] Well, but.

Paul [00:30:32] But remember, on my mission, I felt like. And he was discouraged at times because I'm doing all these things, dad. I'm reading my scriptures. We're doing everything according to the rules. And there was some propaganda by a Fresno missionary president at that time talking about the power of obedience. And that stuff really chaps me.

John Dehlin [00:30:50] You were worried about it?

Paul [00:30:51] I was worried about his mental health in buying in that his obedience could change somebody's agency.

John Dehlin [00:30:57] Now, is there a chance you were projecting?

Paul [00:31:00] Possibly.

John Dehlin [00:31:01] You had those experiences?

Paul [00:31:02] Absolutely. When he wrote back, he was not. He loved it. He was not.

John Dehlin [00:31:06] You were projecting.

Paul [00:31:08] I was projecting, but I was just trying to.

John Dehlin [00:31:09] So don't project. I think the lesson is don't project.

Paul [00:31:12] But I was giving him permission if he had to.

Lisa [00:31:16] But during this time, the Facebook. The lady that reached out to me also added me to a Facebook group.

Kyle [00:31:22] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:31:22] This is ex Mormon Reddit. Right? Okay. Ex Mormon Reddit is a resource.

Lisa [00:31:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:28] Okay. And okay. And she put you in touch with another group.

Lisa [00:31:31] Right.

John Dehlin [00:31:32] Okay.

Lisa [00:31:32] So it was just women who had left, and she's a wonderful, amazing. That started this group. And I went to a Christmas party there with them. I felt like I had made a connection.

Paul [00:31:45] It's a place to share and process stuff. That was very helpful. And then also, what did your Mary

Lisa [00:31:50] told you this time? I was going to therapy. It was mostly for family relationships because I was trying to learn to deal with those. And Kyle, I would talk to her about Kyle, what to do for him, to help him, because he was getting angrier and angrier. And she gave me some good advice and said, a lone monkey is a dead monkey, and told me that I needed to make connections because I had no one. Paul and I talked, but that was it.

John Dehlin [00:32:21] So that was first ex Mormon Reddit, but then this Facebook community.

Paul [00:32:24] This is a therapist who said the Lone Monkeys. A dead monkey. Yes.

Lisa [00:32:27] That made me think I need to reach out.

John Dehlin [00:32:29] And did she tell you how to find a community?

Lisa [00:32:31] No.

John Dehlin [00:32:32] Okay, well, I'll tell you. There's a website called mormonspectrum.org where you can go up there and there's a map and you can find a community in most of the major cities in the United States. Houston, Dallas, Atlanta, D.C. new York, Bay Area, wherever, and join a community. They could be meetup groups or Facebook groups, all sorts of groups. But Mormon spectrum is a way to keep the monkeys Alive instead of having them become dead monkeys.

Lisa [00:33:01] But the problem for us, again, is we are in rural Utah, so to even come to a Mormon group like that, the closest one, so your town

John Dehlin [00:33:11] doesn't have to fix that.

Lisa [00:33:14] Well, it's three hours away.

John Dehlin [00:33:16] I can promise you we can find people for you. Okay.

Lisa [00:33:19] Yeah, we're hoping.

John Dehlin [00:33:21] All right.

Lisa [00:33:22] Okay. Where are we going?

Paul [00:33:23] So.

Kyle's Faith Transition and Wrestling with Identity

John Dehlin [00:33:23] Okay, so, yeah, let's turn now to Kyle, if that's okay.

Paul [00:33:26] Yes, that's a great Kyle.

John Dehlin [00:33:28] We just got all the way up to this point. Let's back up a bit, and let's talk about what you're experiencing.

Kyle [00:33:34] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:33:36] So whenever, like, even earlier, like, whether it's your own identity and experience or the stuff that's happening with your parents, what's going on for you in high school?

Kyle [00:33:46] Okay, so high school, it was a great experience for me for the most part. I was very involved in, like, extracurriculars and that kind of thing.

Lisa [00:33:56] He was senior class president way into the plays, did lots of Never Home deck guest service.

Kyle [00:34:03] Yeah. Yep. So I did a lot of those kind of things. I was involved for one year. I was a member on the Stake Youth Committee, and then I was the chairman the next year. And so I was very busy with that. We were organizing the youth conference for a stake, so just doing that kind of thing.

Lisa [00:34:24] Timberline chaplain.

Kyle [00:34:25] Oh, yeah. I was the chaplain for Timberline Scout Camp. It's a leadership camp, but yeah, so.

John Dehlin [00:34:35] So super Devout.

Kyle [00:34:36] Yeah. Oh, 100%. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:38] Okay.

Kyle [00:34:39] For sure.

John Dehlin [00:34:40] And so why were you getting angry? What was going on? Did you have a sense for what's going on?

Paul [00:34:46] Oh, yeah.

Kyle [00:34:47] That's why. All right, so I first, I think in November when. When the essays came out, was the first time that I kind of got a whiff of it, that something was going on.

John Dehlin [00:34:57] Now, was your testimony, like, rock solid up to this point?

Kyle [00:35:00] Oh, yeah, 100%. Like, I was very up in November 2020. What, 14? Yeah, 14.

John Dehlin [00:35:09] Okay. Yeah, but that's before the s. That's after the essays, but before the.

Paul [00:35:15] It was really the polygamy essay specifically that we used as a tool to try to engage him in conversation. Well, didn't go very well.

Kyle [00:35:23] So he. They tried to have a conversation. I forgot about this conversation until recently, but they tried to have a conversation with me about polygamy and how the church was coming out with some essays about how Joseph Smith had been involved in some less than kosher things. And what was that like for you? It was awful.

John Dehlin [00:35:45] It was horrible to have them tell you this.

Kyle [00:35:47] Yeah, I instantly ended the conversation and then went back into my room and just didn't come out for the rest of the night. And then I had to go off to a school board meeting with one of my friends for a school project or something.

John Dehlin [00:36:01] Why was it awful?

Kyle [00:36:03] Just horrible to, like, polygamy was always one that I had an answer for because I was always. Joseph Smith just married the old women so he could get them across the plains. That was what I always thought. And so I had never really given myself room to believe that there was anything else. Like, so my Sundays. This is off topic, but it'll tie back in. My Sundays were generally. I had a meeting before church and then church at 9, and then I had mission prep and then youth committee meeting, and then I'll go on splits with the missionaries for three hours.

Kyle [00:36:39] And I remember we were on. I was on splits with the missionaries one time and there was a lady who was like, I just can't get over polygamy. Like, I can't. Like, that's just my issue. And I was like, but, but we got an answer. Like, he just married the old women. And like, there's an answer for this and it makes sense.

Kyle [00:36:56] So they were taken care of. And then one of the elders was like, that's kind of not 100% accurate. But then I was just like, oh, we can just put that on a shelf for a little while. Because it was still coming from the missionary. So it was like, okay for me to talk about it in that circumstance. But then couple weeks to a month later, my dad comes and they sit me down. They're like, the church is going to be releasing some essays about Joseph Smith.

Kyle [00:37:26] And it shocked me because now I was getting ex Mormon literature from my parents, because it was like, I'd see it on Facebook and that kind of thing, and I would just be like, oh, unfriend that person. Like, no big deal.

Kyle [00:37:40] But then it was like, into my safe space and into my. My home. That. That I kind of. And you were dealing with these things just dark and gross and just. I. I interpreted it as Satan was trying to influencing. Influence me.

John Dehlin [00:38:00] And then through your parents, the people.

Kyle [00:38:02] Through my parents. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. The most devout people I've ever met. But. And then I went off with this friend who I was on youth committee with, and she kind of talked me down a little bit. She was like, I just think that this is your trial. Like, this is just like. Because it's like, I told her about the polyandry essays and like, Not. I didn't know anything about them other than my dad had said they exist. And then I ran away, so. But I told her that the church is coming out with these essays, and, like, it didn't faze her at all. And then that was just like, oh, I just need to be stronger. Like, this is just my trial. Like, I just need to get past this, and then I'll just live that Mormon life I'm meant to live. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:48] Had you started to question your sexuality at all?

Kyle [00:38:53] Oh, you. So I kind of back up to

John Dehlin [00:38:56] whatever that starts for you.

Kyle [00:38:58] So I think I always. In the back of my mind, but I remember the. Around seventh grade. So it was after our house burned down, and we were. I was in our. We were in our rental home, and it was just a really chaotic period for a really long time.

Kyle [00:39:17] And I remember I was laying there at night, and I was just on my ipod or something, and then I saw a picture of a guy that I thought was. And I was like, oh, wow, that I'm attracted to that. Like, it just clicked for me. And I was like. And then I. Then I read under it, it said gay friendly. And I was like, oh, shoot.

Kyle [00:39:41] Crap. And then I, like, closed off my phone and prayed for three hours because I, like, I can't be that. Like, I can't be one of those homosexuals. Like, I was. I was so scared, and I had so much internalized homophobia that I just blocked it off. And from that point on, I kind of built up a wall in my brain between me and, like, my sexuality.

John Dehlin [00:40:06] So for you, you just shut that down?

Kyle [00:40:07] Yeah, I just shut that down. I had so many conversations with people. I was awful looking back. I had a conversation with one of my friends. She was saying how stupid it was that gay couples can't get married in the United States, but how we were talking about some law in some Southern state that someone can marry their car or something. And besides, it had developed into a conversation about gay marriage, and I totally, like, shut down. I was like, yeah, the country has some weird laws about marriage because I was so against gay marriage, because I had been taught and I needed to be the golden child for the church that, like, I just had brought those in onto myself.

Kyle [00:40:51] And so I kind of separated it. But it wasn't really. When I. When I talked about the gays or, like, the LGBT community, I was thinking about someone else. Like, it wasn't. I wasn't part of it at that point, if that makes sense.

John Dehlin [00:41:02] And so did that register to you as distressing or were you just kind of on autopilot?

Kyle [00:41:08] Yeah, I was kind of on autopilot.

John Dehlin [00:41:10] Happy?

Kyle [00:41:10] Yeah, I think I was happy.

John Dehlin [00:41:12] I think you weren't tormented in high

Lisa [00:41:13] school

Kyle [00:41:15] in that way. I think I was, but I didn't know that. Oh, no, I think that I was, but I didn't really allow myself to look at it and allow myself to think about it and look at what was causing it.

John Dehlin [00:41:32] But it wasn't, like, making you super depressed or super anxious?

Kyle [00:41:35] Well, about.

Paul [00:41:36] In front of the mirror.

Kyle [00:41:37] Oh, okay. As far as being, like, anytime I had from that point on, any time that I saw us, someone that I was attracted to or something, I would just go and stand in front of my mirror and say, I hate you. Like, just look myself in the eyes and say, I hate you. Like, over and over again.

Kyle [00:42:03] Because I was so angry and I was so confused because this wasn't supposed to be happening to me. And I. I had done everything right. I went to EFY every year. I did all the things right. And this just shouldn't have been happening to me because I was one of the faithful. This was not my trial. Like, this shouldn't be my trial because I wasn't strong enough to deal with that. And then I would go into my room and pray for hours and hours to try and just get God to take it away because I just couldn't deal with it. But as far as socially and whatnot, in high school, I didn't really. I wasn't out at all.

John Dehlin [00:42:44] So just privately tormented?

Kyle [00:42:47] Privately tormented? Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:48] But socially.

Kyle [00:42:50] Socially, yeah, exactly. And I think I took a lot of those emotions out of my parents, which was. Which I feel awful about in retrospect. But so you what?

John Dehlin [00:43:03] How would you do that?

Kyle [00:43:04] So I was really mean to my dad for a really long time, and I am. So I feel awful about it now. But, like, just because I had so much hatred for myself that I couldn't, like, that it was kind of overflowing, so I had to put it somewhere. And so I put that blame onto my dad. So it kind of as.

Kyle [00:43:27] As I started getting whiffs of the church from them, it kind of triggered me really easily to just being totally against them, I guess. Which, like, I don't mean to minimize the fact that the church was a large. Large. Like, that was the big issue.

Kyle [00:43:46] Well, it wasn't me being gay that I was, like, blaming them for, but it was like, once I started getting wind of the church issues that they had, it was downhill from. From there For a really long time as far as our relationship went.

Kyle [00:44:01] And I think my faith transition happened completely separate from these guys. Like, they instigated it, but then I kind of just went on from there.

John Dehlin [00:44:11] Was it before June or after June? Before missionary brother came home or after?

Kyle [00:44:18] Before. I kind of had finished before.

Paul [00:44:22] We didn't know that.

Kyle [00:44:22] But they didn't know that. Yeah, I still wasn't talking to them at that point.

John Dehlin [00:44:26] So talk about your faith transition and your missionary paperwork.

Kyle [00:44:29] Okay, that confuses me. I can't remember all that. So I started my missionary paperwork and then I stopped and I started again. But. So I'll just go through the faith transition if that's okay. So I. After November and that first little terrifying moment, I kind of blocked them off and I didn't really let them have any say in what I did with the church from that point on. And I. That was when I turned 18. It was that year, that.

Lisa [00:44:59] Right?

Kyle [00:45:00] Yeah, yeah. And they told me, like, you don't have to go to church anymore. Like, do what you want. And I was like, okay, well, I'm gonna go to church. Because if they're not going to be the people pushing me to be churchy anymore, I guess I'm gonna have to be that person.

Kyle [00:45:17] And so for a while I would. I don't know, did I start church hopping before this or after this? It was after this, right? Yeah. Okay. So after this. So our church is at one at this point. And so I would just go do all my missionary stuff and then do youth committee and then come home. And I didn't really have a lot of interaction with them.

Kyle [00:45:43] But as far as my faith transition goes, I think so the essays were the biggest thing. I heard them talking about it downstairs because they thought they were being very sneaky, but they were not. And so that kind of sparked it for me. And that year in seminary, we were learning Doctrine and Covenants. So church history, which was an answer to me because it was like, obviously God has put doctrine and covenants in my lap to solve all of my questions that I might have.

Kyle [00:46:17] And so through them, like hearing them, that was mostly where I got my information, was hearing them or walking in on them, listening to podcasts or something. But I don't know.

Paul [00:46:35] You went to your friends, though, and got reinforcement?

Kyle [00:46:37] Yes, yes. And so all my friends were like, on youth committee with me and we were all on student council together. So, like, I would leave our house and go over to one of my other friends houses who was very devout and just like, be There, and, like, I would have family home evening with their family, and I would just be there all Sunday because I just couldn't be in our house because I. I don't know, I just didn't like the feelings it gave me because I was so scared of what was happening.

John Dehlin [00:47:09] So what led to you losing your faith? How did it happen? Do you remember?

Kyle [00:47:15] I think ever since I heard about the polygamy and heard that it was real, it kind of, like, it was like, my mom, like, it just kind of triggered for a second, and then I realized, like, so I was sick that day, and so I stayed home from church. And then that gave me the time to, like, actually think about it. But then, like, after it triggered, and I was like, I'm no longer a member. And then I was like, wait, that's stupid. Go back. And I don't know how like, easily,

John Dehlin [00:47:43] like, kind of back and forth.

Kyle [00:47:45] It was back and forth for a second, but then it just made me entrench further into the church.

John Dehlin [00:47:51] Oh, wow. So you were kind of oscillating for a second.

Paul [00:47:55] Yeah. And he didn't share any of this with us. He was just very upset. Very upset.

Kyle [00:47:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:59] And we were just kind of upset.

Paul [00:48:01] He'd work on missionary paperwork, and then he would slow down on his missionary paperwork, and then he had so many big activities towards the end of school that really kept him really busy with the youth conference. And that was a huge spiritual thing and very positive thing for Kyle in the seminary graduation.

John Dehlin [00:48:16] So a confusing time for you.

Kyle [00:48:18] Yeah, for sure, for sure. I think just through all the activities, I don't know where it was.

Lisa [00:48:25] Well, I think one key to this, too, is the gay issue wasn't a thing because he was never coming out.

Kyle [00:48:32] Yeah. That was never something that I'd even considered. Like, it was never, like, waiting for my time to come out. It was just like, I'm just gonna bury this deep inside and hope that it, like, goes away eventually. Yeah. And so I. I don't know where to go.

John Dehlin [00:48:49] You don't remember a moment where it's just like, I'm done?

Kyle [00:48:52] No, it just. It was so steady. And so, like, it started with me starting to kind of be like, I hate this term, but, like, Jack Mormon for a little while where I would come to seminary and just, like, leave and go off with my friends and get donuts or something and then bring them back for our class and, like, just not being the golden boy anymore and not being the person who would attend seminary every day because I had had a Very strict teacher who kind of enforced that on me and during the. The beginning of my faith crisis. So it's kind of hard to want to go to seminary.

Kyle [00:49:28] I don't know, because it was mostly about, like, trying to ignore those feelings. And those feelings came when I was at home, and when I was at seminary, we would talk about the harder issues. And so acknowledging that they were real was kind of hurtful for me. Like, I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:49:46] So can you remember a point where you were just done and you were done think and even tell your parents, I'm done, and just kind of like, are you there now or are you still.

Kyle [00:49:58] No, no, no. I'm definitely, like, I've written my letter and everything.

John Dehlin [00:50:02] Okay, so do you remember a point where you were done?

Kyle [00:50:05] I think, yeah. The final point that I was done was the same night that I actually came out to the first person. So one of my best friends had moved away the year before, so she wasn't here for all this. But then she moved back for the summer, and we just went out to dinner, and we were just having a conversation, and I told her all these things where they're going on with my parents. My parents left the church. They aren't active anymore. And she. She was baptized when she was 8, so she gets it. But then she just. Like, they never went anymore, but so.

Lisa [00:50:40] Because you felt safe.

Kyle [00:50:41] Yeah, exactly. And I just told her, like, I can't do this anymore. I'm not Mormon anymore. Like, I just. Everything that I was told isn't actually a fact. And I was misled on all the things that I had, all the answers that I needed for the hard and hard questions, like blacks in the priesthood and, like, polygamy, like, they were proof false. And I realized that, like, just so my whole foundation that I built my testimony on was gone. And so my whole relationship with the church kind of crumbled, too. So I. And I just had that conversation with her, and then at the end of it, I just felt so safe and that we just had such a great conversation that I just told her that I was gay, Which I was shocked.

Kyle [00:51:27] And I. And I. Then I did the whole, like, I'm probably just bisexual, like, I'm just gonna marry a girl anyways. Like, just tried to shut it down. And she was incredible. Like, she was. She was amazing. But, yeah, it was. That was. That was the final moment.

John Dehlin [00:51:40] So that was a double coming out for you?

Kyle [00:51:42] Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:51:43] One person.

Kyle [00:51:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:44] Did you told anyone else about being gay?

Kyle [00:51:47] Oh, no. Never.

Paul [00:51:48] Never. And I don't think I.

Kyle [00:51:50] No, never. Never. I was too scared because that would be like admitting that it was real. And that was the issue that when I told Kennedy that it was real, like, it made it. Like I had actually said it. And that's why I was so desperate to make her think that, like, I actually was just going to have this normal life. And I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:52:10] And this is summer after your senior year.

Lisa [00:52:12] Just barely.

John Dehlin [00:52:13] Summer 2015.

Lisa [00:52:15] After you graduated?

John Dehlin [00:52:16] Yeah, right after you graduated. Okay. Right before older brother missionary.

Paul [00:52:20] That's the next. That's the next thing that happens.

John Dehlin [00:52:23] Okay. So before brother comes home from his mission, did you tell your parents you were done? No, they didn't tell them?

Kyle [00:52:29] No.

John Dehlin [00:52:29] Why didn't you run to him and tell them?

Kyle [00:52:30] I was so. I just feeling so many awful emotions with the whole coming out that.

Paul [00:52:36] That.

Kyle [00:52:37] That was actually where I treated them. The worst was after I was done with the church.

John Dehlin [00:52:40] Really?

Kyle [00:52:40] Yeah. Just because I was so confused with how, like, with my sexuality and like, I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:52:47] You gotta be angry that, like, you've been living all this way for so long, they had raised you that way, and now they're making all these changes. I bet my kids felt this way about me.

Kyle [00:52:59] And I was. I was the stereotypical, like, terrible child to them. When they, like, anytime they wanted to talk about the church, I shut them down because I was not going to talk about the church with heathens. Like, I was. I was awful to them. But. And that's the reason I stopped going to my ward was because that they were going to that ward. Like, I went to one of my seminary, a bishop in my ward who's also a seminary teacher. And I asked him if I could switch wards and be in his ward because I respected him so much. And I told him what was going on and he outed us. I didn't. Yeah. Yeah, I did out them, but, like, he didn't tell anyone, hopefully. But. Yeah. So.

John Dehlin [00:53:40] Okay.

Kyle [00:53:41] I was just.

John Dehlin [00:53:41] Beautiful.

Kyle [00:53:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:42] Thank you. Okay, so now it's June.

A Missionary Returns Home to a Changed Family

Paul [00:53:46] Gets really exciting.

John Dehlin [00:53:48] You're. You're semi. You're. You're sort of. There's distance between you and your daughter.

Lisa [00:53:53] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:53:53] You've got your youngest son, Matthew.

Lisa [00:53:56] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:53:56] You're closer to oldest son than ever.

Lisa [00:54:00] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:54:00] And you've got a missionary son who comes home.

Lisa [00:54:04] So one really important thing had happened right before that is the therapist had told me that just keep going to church. I just. I just kept. For Kyle, what do I do to keep going to church? And she said, you'll know when it's over. Just keep going until, you know when you can't go again. Really exciting, I guess, was we had reached that point, so we weren't going to sacrament meeting, but. But hypocritically, because Kyle thought we were being hypocrites, but we just had to stay in there a couple more months.

Paul [00:54:41] So hit our goal.

Lisa [00:54:42] We weren't going to sacrament meeting. I was going to teach my primary class. And then even sharing time got so the follow the prophet songs, the teaching, the restoration the wrong way. I couldn't even handle it. And it was a great moment to say, you're right, I can't do this anymore. So I could go teach my primary class. Paul would go and count the tithing, but we knew we were done.

Paul [00:55:13] And quite frankly, I had a great time counting the tithing because the bishopric members were wonderful people, are wonderful people. The clerk that I was interacting with, we would joke and laugh and have a great time. The only problem they had was when they asked me to do something. At this point, I couldn't do anything, which I'll get to in just one moment with my son.

Lisa [00:55:34] So a couple more weeks we had to wait. He got home, it was wonderful. He had a marvelous, just picture perfect homecoming. He spoke in both wards, sacrament meeting. We had moved during the time he spoke in both wards.

Paul [00:55:52] On the way home from the airport, though, with him in Heber at the gas station, we run into our bishop and he says, brother Hacking, I have a great idea. Why don't you speak with your son Sunday in front of his family, my family and everybody. It's just. It's not his fault. He thought it was a favor. I understand, but I said, oh, Bishop, I just don't want to take the light away from Riker. This is Riker's day. I'm going to let Riker. Oh, no, no, no. This would make it even better. No, Bishop, I really appreciate it, but I'm going to have to turn you down on that. And, you know, it's not about him. I don't mean to hurt him. He's a great man, but I can't do that.

Lisa [00:56:34] So Riker had his homecoming. It was wonderful. The daughter came home, she was a

Paul [00:56:39] little bit better, but she cornered us and she wanted us to tell Riker immediately.

Lisa [00:56:44] And she thought we were being really hypocritical, that that's so stressful to family.

John Dehlin [00:56:48] Like, who's gonna tell? Who are you not gonna tell? When are you gonna tell? Why aren't you telling?

Lisa [00:56:53] I'm sick of keeping secrets. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:56:55] Isn't that stressful?

Paul [00:56:56] It's so stressful.

Kyle [00:56:58] And so at this point, for me, I forgot to tell this, but. So I would call my sister

John Dehlin [00:57:06] two

Kyle [00:57:06] weeks and just check in and, like, we'd have spiritual conversations and just hate on the parents. Not hate on the parents, but, like. Yeah, just, like, we would. Yeah. I don't know. We were trying. Yeah, they've gone crazy. Yeah, exactly. And we just thought that they were sick and that they were people who we, like, thought that they were before and they weren't anymore. But so Camille coming home, she didn't know that I was, like, almost done. So I had this, like, dichotomy of I was out mentally, but my parents didn't know that. And then Camille, I was out. But Kamel thinks that. But I'm still trying to talk to her.

Lisa [00:57:51] It's okay. It's all right, sister. It's all good.

Kyle [00:57:54] My sister thinks that I'm still in. So I kind of felt this pressure

Lisa [00:57:58] to keep the family together. He had a great pressure because the

John Dehlin [00:58:03] family's splitting apart, and he thought he

Lisa [00:58:06] was the glue holding them together.

Kyle [00:58:08] And I thought that I was the only one who is, like, not in, but in, but so, like, part of both tribes, but not able to reach either.

Paul [00:58:19] In our missionary son homecoming, I had a. I only told a couple of people. One friend was just very nuance y and very loving. The other one was very dogmatic. And I didn't. It was an accident that he found out. But he came to our missionary son's homecoming and sat by me as a good friend. And by the end of the time that our son had finished his speech, I was crying. I felt tremendous. And he said, paul, can't you feel the spirit testifying to you of the truculus? I just said, I feel love for that boy up there, and love is enough. Sometimes I think we misrepresent what that feeling is. Love is that feeling, and I do feel love for my boy. So we had a great day there, and he had his party afterwards with family and friends the next day, though two days later, Lisa was working with him.

Lisa [00:59:20] And so my missionary son wanted me to be his companion and do companion scripture study. And I told him I would be happy to. He might not like everything that I said about companion scripture study and about the Scriptures, but I would be happy to. And he kind of sweet, little eager

John Dehlin [00:59:41] boy gets home from his mission.

Kyle [00:59:43] He was.

John Dehlin [00:59:44] He wants his companion to do companionship inventory.

Paul [00:59:47] Beautiful boy.

Lisa [00:59:48] Yeah. Yes. And he wanted to Share his missionary stories with us, which we said, we want to hear him. We want to hear what you did. Everything.

Paul [00:59:57] I think that's really important to not take that away from them. Let them share what they have. Two years full of stories. You've got to let them tell those stories, and you don't need to be judgmental about them.

Lisa [01:00:11] So when I said that he had also noticed that I had my second pair of earrings back in. Yeah, yeah, I had done that. Right. When I found out the church wasn't true.

John Dehlin [01:00:26] Right. You went out and got a piercing.

Lisa [01:00:28] I already had it. I just.

Paul [01:00:30] She took it all. When President Hinckley said, don't do it.

John Dehlin [01:00:32] Oh, okay.

Lisa [01:00:32] When President Hinckley said, only one pair of earrings. Well, we had done that, but then I was in that meeting with my Relief Society presidency, and he said, only one pair of earrings. And we took them all, all our extras out and only wore one pair. But he had noticed and my daughter had noticed that I put that second pair back in. And we. I said, bud, isn't that crazy? Earrings. It's. It's not a big deal. And he said, mom, it's about obedience. So he was getting clues that things weren't the same, that I wasn't the same. And he asked if he could talk to me. And so I said, do you mind if we get dad? He said, no. So we all talk together, and we were much wiser this time.

John Dehlin [01:01:24] We were with you.

Lisa [01:01:26] No, Kyle was not just us three. We told him we had had a change. We loved him. He was our son. He would always, forever be our son. Nobody could take him away from us. We were a family.

Paul [01:01:42] Reinforce that we would support him. We wanted to hear his life experiences. We would be there for him. And we just encircled him and for hours, just repeated ourselves, reinforcing our love. Huge. He's a big boy. Huge body. Shuddering, sobs. He was hurting of terror and sorrow and pain. He felt. But we all felt.

Lisa [01:02:11] We told him we wouldn't tell him anything, that he was a really smart boy and if he wanted to ask us questions, he could, but we weren't going to tell him anything. And we have not.

Paul [01:02:25] We learned. We learned the hard way. And I think the point really is in this situation, you've got to be in it for the long game. If this takes years and years or never. Most important is love. And that he loves us. And he does. And that set up future things so well. Because he's all about love and we're all about love for him. And he's a beautiful. And I so wish we would have done our daughter that way as well.

John Dehlin [01:02:52] Okay, so you had that incredible moment of sorrow. Did it end sorrowfully or did it.

Lisa [01:02:59] It ended in love.

Paul [01:03:01] It ended in love.

John Dehlin [01:03:02] It was just this big love fest.

Paul [01:03:04] Well, it was sorrow and love. And we.

John Dehlin [01:03:06] We.

Paul [01:03:07] We lost a lot.

Lisa [01:03:08] We lost him until he knew that we weren't going away. We weren't going anywhere.

Paul [01:03:14] Nope. And it was till about 3 or 4 in the morning that we just stayed like that. And then we went to bed. And the next day he was cheerful.

Lisa [01:03:23] And he has loved us.

Paul [01:03:24] And he's loved us ever since.

John Dehlin [01:03:26] Wow.

Paul [01:03:27] Beautiful. Really powerful story. Now, we had met our deadline, so we had already set up an appointment the next Tuesday to meet with our bishop. And the day before. This is kind of ironic, and I just want to throw it in because it was meaningful to us. The infants on throne came out with a podcast called 50 Ways to Leave the Church. You got the irony of them doing that the day before. We are doing that. And so we stayed to our goal. We told our son it was so helpful to have some humor. And we had another special moment that day that our friend of ours, Dave Clark, came out to our area that day. And we didn't know him, but we knew him because of the podcast. And I approached him. He went to lunch with us. The day we're meeting with our bishop,

Lisa [01:04:19] we felt like we were having a stake presence interview and he was giving us the green light, saying, you're doing what's right.

Paul [01:04:26] So that was the next day, but the day before we met with the bishop, we were also planning to go to Europe in a week or so, and because we had a foreign exchange student getting married, that we were going to be celebrating that with them. But we were so afraid to leave Kyle with such a bad feeling.

Lisa [01:04:44] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Paul [01:04:46] With such a bad feeling. And then I'll turn it over to you. This is important. It was the day before we met. We had our appointment to meet with the bishop.

Lisa [01:04:53] Okay. So I was making a quilt for to take to the wedding, and I thought this would be a good time to force Kyle to come and talk to me.

Kyle [01:05:02] Chit chat.

Lisa [01:05:05] He couldn't leave me because he was going to help me do that quilt. And he'd done lots before, so he knew that it took a while and we were going to be there a while, and so got all the stuff, told him, you're helping me, bud, and we're going to talk. I want to find out what's wrong because it had progressively been getting worse. And as a mother, you don't want to think about the suicide word at all. But we were scared. We knew that something was wrong with him and didn't have a clue of what it was, but knew that I knew as a mom I needed to help him. And so I forced him to stay there with me for hours and do that quilt. And he would give me nothing. Nothing.

Paul [01:05:54] Just stare down.

Lisa [01:05:55] Stare down. Nothing. So I started into the guessing game.

John Dehlin [01:05:59] What was that like for you? It was horrible. Did you know what she was doing or.

Kyle [01:06:03] It was awful. Yeah, yeah, I knew what she was doing. I don't know, it was just. I was so in my own place. And then it was like. Then my mom came and was intruding on it. But it wasn't like, intrusive. It was just like. I was just so, like, in such a bad place that it was like. I don't know, I was just trying to stay there, I guess.

Lisa [01:06:25] He did. He wanted to stay in this bad place.

Kyle [01:06:27] Well, not the bad place, but I just wanted to, like, be by myself forever for, like, you know.

Paul [01:06:33] And you're nursing your anger though, too?

Lisa [01:06:35] Well, he had. Since he had come out to Kennedy. He was sad that he had and wasn't going to tell anybody else.

Kyle [01:06:43] And I was doing the same thing to my friend at this point, just like, trying to, like, trying to

Lisa [01:06:51] just

Kyle [01:06:51] forget that it happened and to go back to before. So.

Lisa [01:06:55] So we're doing the quilt. Hours and hours, then I start the guessing game. Okay. It's because you're going to college and we're not letting you take a car. You're mad at us because of that? Because I had already guessed the church stuff and he wouldn't give on that. Your friends are being mean to you.

John Dehlin [01:07:13] Are you articulating these guesses? Yes.

Lisa [01:07:15] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:07:18] No.

Lisa [01:07:19] Mom.

Kyle [01:07:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:20] Why? He's acting like.

Lisa [01:07:22] What's wrong, brat. Yeah. Yeah. We gotta figure this out.

John Dehlin [01:07:27] The car in college.

Lisa [01:07:29] I'm. I'm just guessing anything I can think of of what in his life would be making him so miserable.

Kyle [01:07:36] And like, so in my deepest fantasies before I. Like, before any of this had happened, I'd, like, pictured if I ever told my mom. And so it was so funny. Like, not funny at all, but, like, it was just interesting to be, like, seeing this conversation actually happening because it was a conversation that I never thought would happen.

Lisa [01:07:57] So you'd had in your head.

Kyle [01:07:58] But I'd had in my head for so long. But yeah.

Lisa [01:08:02] So finally, hours later, awful yeah. With the quilt's finished, we're just sitting there staring at each other window because I said, you're not going anywhere. And then finally he rushes over to me, puts his arms around me and says, mom, I'm gay. And a huge flood of relief, huge flood of relief just came over me because I just told him, bud, we can do this.

A Child Comes Out and the Family Responds

Paul [01:08:34] This is.

Lisa [01:08:35] We love you. We can do this. I was so relieved to just know that's all it was.

John Dehlin [01:08:42] Why are you relieved? That's a TVM Mormon's worst nightmare, right?

Kyle [01:08:47] Well, one thing that we always say is that if my mom was the person she was two years ago, I never would have told her, like, even in that dire of circumstances, I wouldn't have just because I don't know.

Lisa [01:08:59] So I am led by the thought of, when you're on the right path, the world, the universe conspires to help you. And I feel like I was led my whole nine months before, ten months before, so I could be that person that day, so I could say those things that day. Because you're right, the TBM mom that I was before would not have said that.

John Dehlin [01:09:27] What was that like for you?

Kyle [01:09:29] Oh, well, and I. I had had several, like, experiences the last couple days. Like, it was the day, like, the week before the Supreme Court decision came out. And so there's a lot of things all over social media, and it was just kind of normalizing it for me, and it really, like, helped me a lot. And then in that moment, I don't know, I didn't cry when I told anyone except for my mom, I broke down. It was really.

Kyle [01:09:55] It was a relief to tell my mom. I don't know, it was hard to tell everyone else but my mom. It was a huge relief. And at that, oh, she was amazing. But, yeah, because I still, like, I knew that she had left the church and I knew that she was done with the church, but I was still, like, she's gonna try and fix me, like, because that was my immediate reaction because I had done it for so long that it's like, oh, obvious that. So my defenses were still up.

John Dehlin [01:10:22] But what did you like about her response?

Kyle [01:10:25] Oh, she just. She just hugged me and let me knew that I was loved and that it didn't change anything. And it just, it was. It was good to get that validation because, like, I. Even though I knew my parents were done with church, it was still terrifying. Like, the idea of telling my parents about this thing that I was so ashamed of for so long, like, was mind boggling and that, like, it was so, like, not what I thought it was going to be was just incredible.

Lisa [01:10:58] Like, and then lots of things about his life clicked. Clicked for me. Things about I'd be like, yeah, yeah, now I can see that. Yep, yep, I gotcha. Yep.

Paul [01:11:11] We don't even know what the word miraculous means anymore, but it was miraculous that our journey had taken us to a place of orthodoxy where we could have been those people that we're ashamed to say before this happened. But when the shelf cracked, these cultural issues were one of the first things to go is why can't we be nice? And anybody out there that is a father or mother of a gay child and questions why somebody would have issues with the church is not living it. This is real. This is dangerous. What's happening to our LGBT children and the way they're being treated by the policy. That comes later. But we were so happy that we. And it was worth everything, everything we've talked about up to this point, my feelings, everything.

John Dehlin [01:12:02] We.

Paul [01:12:02] To bring us to a point where we could accept him unconditionally and just love him where he is and celebrate who he is, not just accept. Celebrate who he is and move forward. It's really a beautiful thing for us and very personal. And if people that hear this, you don't even want to hear any comments second guessing this, because I'll ignore it. This is real life for us.

John Dehlin [01:12:32] All right, any other major stories before we wrap up this episode?

Paul [01:12:37] Well, just the next day, we had years and generations of grooves, mind. Grooves, we call them in our heads. Well, you want to start the next episode, the bishop?

John Dehlin [01:12:52] Yeah. Is that the beginning of the next chapter?

Kyle [01:12:54] I think it's.

Paul [01:12:56] I think it ends this chapter.

Lisa [01:12:57] Go ahead.

Paul [01:12:59] So I think people can learn from this as well. We had an appointment with our bishop the next day, and we want to make it very clear our bishop's a wonderful man. He was hurt by us, and we're really sorry. But because of everything happening, it was not a problem whatsoever for us to go in there and separate him from the church. And we were not speaking to him today. That day, we were speaking to the church, and we just kept it very simple.

Paul [01:13:25] And we said, bishop, we need to meet with you. And we're here not to have a long discussion, but just to let you know, the church is no longer a healthy place for us. And by that, Lisa alluded to it just a moment ago, towards the end, when people would get up and praise Joseph Smith or whatever, Lisa and I would just be mocking that not the person, but the message. And that's not us. We don't want them. We love our ward. We love these people. We love our community. We have a great community of people that rally and help each other. It's not about that. It was about the church.

Lisa [01:14:00] To tell the bishop, this isn't a healthy place for us. We could say, we haven't sinned, we haven't.

Paul [01:14:06] Not offended.

Lisa [01:14:07] Not offended. No one's hurt us in the ward. It's just not a healthy place. We set our keys, our books on the table and left.

Paul [01:14:16] And he tried to get us to stay. And he was really trying to get us to talk to him, but the fact is we had no questions. It wasn't about asking questions and getting answers. We were there to let him know out of respect for him, even though he felt. I'm sure he felt it was unkind at the moment, but I really believe it was the kindest way we could have handled it. He left our keys, told him we loved him. He said, what can we do for him? He said, just love us back. That's all we need is your love. He said, well, if you've got that, of course, then. Then we're good. And we left.

John Dehlin [01:14:48] And it's a good.

Paul [01:14:50] I think the. Some people need to process with 100 page letters, and there's reasons to do that, but to this gentleman, there's no reason to do that to him.

John Dehlin [01:15:02] So clean break.

Lisa [01:15:03] Yep.

Paul [01:15:03] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:15:05] All right. What a dramatic conclusion to this second part of the interview. We will. We'll wrap this up and we'll come back for part three where we'll talk about where. Where the family is now and maybe some lessons they've learned. But we want to thank Kyle, Lisa and Paul for sharing part two of this Ordinary Family's extraordinary Mormon transition. So thanks for joining us and don't forget to join us for part three. We'll talk to you guys soon.

Part Three: Germany, Sunstone, and Seeking Community

Part 3 of 3 · Ep. 652

John Dehlin [00:00:16] Well, we're back for part three of our epic ordinary Mormon family's extraordinary Mormon transition. We're here with Lisa, Paul and Kyle. This is part three of this epic journey. We've been through Paul's faith crisis, then Lisa coming aboard. We've talked about how they didn't tell their daughter quite in the way they wished, and how that caused a lot of pain. We've talked about Kyle coming out as gay and how difficult it was for him to deal with his parents struggling in their transition. We've also talked about the returned missionary coming home and. And how they had a bit of a better conversation there. So we're coming into sort of late mid to late 2015 in the story. And Paul, I think you have a story for us to kick off this episode.

Paul [00:01:15] Well, after we had settled things with Kyle, we had already planned to go and visit our foreign exchange student in Germany because she was getting married. And it was a beautiful wedding ceremony and it was so open to everybody in the family. It was a beautiful experience. But after everything was done and we did have. We won't talk about the details too much, but we did sit down and explain to the family who thought we were very orthodox Mormons because that's who we were when she, our foreign exchange student, had lived with us. Darling young lady. The last day there, though, we went on a tour of the city of Worms.

Paul [00:01:53] W O R M S and during there, I was up with Wilfried and Lisa was with Ingrid, the mom. And Ingrid was explaining to Lise how many, many years ago they had what's called the Diet at Worms or Worms, which was. They put Martin Luther on trial by the Holy Roman Empire to see if he would be deemed what was called Vogelfrei, which means anybody could kill him on site for any reason because he was an enemy of state. He was already excommunicated by the Catholic Church and now the Holy Roman Empire was having Adam. And they debated this for several days. And Ingrid was explaining to Lisa how Martin Luther, as we're walking to a statue about him, had found out certain things about the Catholic Church which he just couldn't agree with indulgences, the fact that the Church stood between you and God and that you should be able to go directly to God, forbidding to marry for the preachers, for the priests, and many other things, she was saying.

Paul [00:02:55] And so it was very difficult for him because he had found out these things and his integrity wouldn't allow him just to leave it alone. At this point, Lisa just broke into Tears.

Lisa [00:03:09] I just stood at that statue and bald.

Paul [00:03:12] The connections of that story to our summer and all the emotions that we were experiencing seemed to come right at the head. And after living with Lisa there, being very emotional, I went up and I read the statue that stands in the City of Worms. And it says here, ich ster, ich kan nich anders got hilfemir. Amen.

Paul [00:03:37] Translated that says, here I stand. I can't do anything else. God help me. Amen. And to a big extent, that kind of capitalizes our journey. That's where we were. That's where we've transitioned to a healthy place in that year. But during all the emotion of last summer, we were standing there, we couldn't do anything other. We couldn't go back in, we couldn't take the blue pill.

Paul [00:04:10] And we say, God help us, whatever that means, universe, help us. Amen. And that just kind of capsules. And I think it's a beautiful story. Maybe you can relate to that.

John Dehlin [00:04:20] It's beautiful. I can relate to that. And I think thousands and tens of thousands of listeners can as well. And I think that's a great way to kick off this part three, I think our focus. Let's have our focus turn to. There's so many people out there struggling with the transition. They don't know how to deal with it. There's so many people with part believing, part non believing families. People are feeling alone. They don't know how to deal with extended family, with the ward, with the community, with the leadership, with each other. Let's talk about your journey for the next 40 minutes or so of stories and experiences you've had that could help others navigate their own transitions.

Paul [00:05:06] The first thing that happened when we came back from Germany is we went to Sunstone and we were really just seeking community of people that were like minded. We didn't. Sunstone is kind of like Mormon Woodstock where Comic Con. Comic Con where very orthodox and very progressive and former Mormons can talk about different things that have happened in Mormon culture and cultural history. Lindsay does a fantastic job. And Lindsay's podcast on Year and Polygamy was very, very important to us. It was excellent. But out there, the most important thing is we didn't know very many people. So it was kind of hard. Lisa met a few people that were

Lisa [00:05:50] on my Facebook group. I met someone that I had known from that Facebook group and she connected with me with Mama Dragons, which I didn't even know what that was.

John Dehlin [00:06:00] What's Mama Dragons?

Lisa [00:06:01] I didn't even know. So it is a Group of moms running strong that all their goal is is to protect the kids, to love and protect their LGBT kids and other. Any LGBT kid.

John Dehlin [00:06:17] And we have a Mormon Stories episode with the Mama Dragons. It's really good. The women are fabulous, and there's over a thousand of them now.

Lisa [00:06:25] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:06:25] It's a lot.

Lisa [00:06:26] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:06:26] It's a lot of mamas.

Lisa [00:06:27] Yep.

Paul [00:06:28] It was very helpful to get Lisa connected to that community, and I benefit a lot from her vicariously through her.

John Dehlin [00:06:35] Okay, so that was important for you to get support. To help you support, Right?

Lisa [00:06:40] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:06:41] Okay.

Paul [00:06:41] So about this same time, a woman that was in this Facebook group found a need. Do you want to explain that, honey? For older.

Lisa [00:06:50] So the Facebook group that we were in, there were lots of young girls

Paul [00:06:55] in it, and we still are in it.

Lisa [00:06:57] And it's great, and it's a great group. It's really big. Probably, what, 400 people in it, and it's great. But a lady in there saw a need for people that were older because us that are older have had different life experiences and different needs, and she formed a separate group that was just for ladies over 40 and more to socialize and have community.

John Dehlin [00:07:24] Or is that not to be mentioned?

Paul [00:07:25] It's good.

John Dehlin [00:07:26] What's the name of the group?

Lisa [00:07:27] Waka.

John Dehlin [00:07:28] What does that stand for?

Lisa [00:07:29] Women of a certain age.

John Dehlin [00:07:30] Okay.

Lisa [00:07:31] Women of a certain age spectrum.

John Dehlin [00:07:33] Right.

Lisa [00:07:33] I think she's working on it. Yep.

Paul [00:07:36] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:07:36] All right. How does someone find waka? Do they have to be invited?

Lisa [00:07:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:40] Okay. All right.

Lisa [00:07:41] Both. They're out there, and it. Mormon spectrum will be publicized.

John Dehlin [00:07:46] Okay.

Lisa [00:07:47] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:07:47] So Waka. Women of a certain age just there to socialize. Do we name the woman who did this, or Kim.

Lisa [00:07:53] She's amazing.

Paul [00:07:54] We have her permission.

John Dehlin [00:07:55] Turner. Kim Turner is amazing. She is the mama. Waka.

Lisa [00:08:01] She is. She is.

Paul [00:08:02] What's interesting, Kim has made this comment about, you know, after. Since progress, transitioning away from the church and moving on with her life, she still worries about giving service. And I'm just, like, shaking my head because that woman has given so much real, meaningful services to people that are hurting. It's just incredible what she and her husband have done. They're just wonderful giving people.

John Dehlin [00:08:24] Kim and Terry Turner. So tell us about Wacca, what it meant to you.

Lisa [00:08:28] So it was just a place to socialize and not feel like I was a crazy woman because I was surrounded by people who thought differently than I did. And it was amazing to go and be with ladies who had been relief society presidents, who had been young women's presidents. Their Husbands had been stake presidents. They had the same life experiences, and they had older kids, and they were dealing with older kid problems. And we just support each other and love each other. We socialize. We. We went on a retreat in April, went and stayed up in a cabin. It was a wonderful time. We're going again this weekend, and it's doubled in size. The amount of ladies that are coming. Just herding. Ladies that need community.

John Dehlin [00:09:19] Yeah.

Paul [00:09:20] And another thing that happened the fall, in addition to joining wca, which is not just these meetups, but they share so much on Facebook to support each other in life's journeys. But Kyle decided. Came to a point where he was ready to come out publicly, which was a big event for us because he gave us. And I'll let Kyle speak for himself in a moment, but he gave us a week to tell our family and the family members that needed to know.

Paul [00:09:50] We told everybody about Kyle, but we also took advantage of that opportunity to tell them that we had transitioned away from the church. Those that didn't know, there are some that are so busy with their lives that we didn't weigh them down with this, but it was an opportunity to talk about those things. And several of our family members, they're really close to us. It really hurt them, and we are really sorry for the pain that that caused them, but we are the ones that did that.

Lisa [00:10:20] But what hurt them?

Paul [00:10:21] Not Kyle coming out. They love Kyle. They know who Kyle is. They support Kyle. But to hear especially that Lisa was no longer in the church was devastating for them.

John Dehlin [00:10:35] So this is Lisa's family members. Your family members?

Lisa [00:10:38] Yeah. And Paul's, too, and Paul's siblings. And the only way that they knew that was by us saying, we totally support him 100%. We hope he gets married. We hope we have grandkids from this child. We are 100% in support of him. And then it was like, whoa, you

John Dehlin [00:10:58] didn't talk about your own faith at all.

Lisa [00:11:01] And they were like, oh,

John Dehlin [00:11:05] so the main thing is you tell them you're supporting Kyle.

Lisa [00:11:08] Yes. And then it's true. To try and get some help for him, or. I kind of thought that that was, like, a condition that could be fixed. Me, too. And during this time, we. Kyle had been going to therapy, and he was in a really healthy place.

John Dehlin [00:11:26] So at the counseling center.

Kyle [00:11:29] No. 2 Mary.

Lisa [00:11:31] I trade.

Kyle [00:11:32] And I don't. Oh, only to Mary.

Lisa [00:11:35] Yeah, I traded Mary.

Kyle [00:11:37] We trade psychiatrists in this family therapist.

John Dehlin [00:11:41] Pass them around.

Kyle [00:11:42] Yeah, pass them around.

Telling Extended Family and Navigating Relationships

Paul [00:11:43] So during this time, it was our opportunity to speak with Our family members about why most did not want to know at all. The few that asked just a few questions. And we're really close with these family members, friends as well as relatives. And some of them are pretty high church callings. They really didn't want to know, John. They just were devastated. It was painful. It created an awkward environment for about six months. But in that environment, it was hard for us as well, because once again, we want to be understood. I want to be understood.

John Dehlin [00:12:22] We were better to tell them.

Paul [00:12:25] Do you want to tell them? Email. We called them.

Lisa [00:12:28] We called.

John Dehlin [00:12:29] It was through phone calls.

Lisa [00:12:30] Phone calls to the ones that we wanted to know.

Paul [00:12:33] And I met up personally with some too.

Lisa [00:12:35] Yeah. Before this came out publicly to everybody.

John Dehlin [00:12:41] Did you take the daughter? Did you take the approach you took with your daughter or with your rs?

Lisa [00:12:45] The daughter we actually drove together.

John Dehlin [00:12:49] What approach did you take when you came out to these other extended family members?

Paul [00:12:53] Oh, is it the impossible, yes.

John Dehlin [00:12:56] All about love or was it the.

Lisa [00:12:58] No, we didn't tell anything.

John Dehlin [00:12:59] Okay, you did.

Lisa [00:13:00] All about love.

John Dehlin [00:13:01] Okay.

Paul [00:13:01] All about love reassured them that we love them, which is totally true. We. We want to continue relationships with them. If ever they feel a need to want to know, we would be happy to tell them. But we validated their pain and the loss and the remorse that they're going to. And the anger that they're going to go through because we're feeling it too. But at the end of the day, we want to have relationship. And this is really hard for us. And we probably talk about lessons learned, but over that time, boundaries have been created between us and our loved ones. And it bothers me sometimes because I want to be understood.

Paul [00:13:38] And I get mad because things are said and I want to correct things or to interject. And then I. Then I have to remind myself, no, these boundaries are healthy. I need to change my brain instead of fighting against the boundaries to celebrate them. Because it makes us have an ongoing, positive, wonderful relationship with family members we love. And that's.

Lisa [00:14:01] It's different.

Paul [00:14:02] It's different and it'll never be the same.

John Dehlin [00:14:05] So good fences make good neighbors.

Lisa [00:14:07] Yes.

Paul [00:14:08] And it takes both sides to do that.

John Dehlin [00:14:10] Make your religion or your non religion private so that the rest of your relationship can still survive. Yep, somewhat.

Paul [00:14:21] And we did tell them. We know that the church is a huge part of your life. We know that. And so when we're together. And Lisa instigated monthly family meals, parties, way before they knew anything about this. But because to say family is important to us, it's still Important to us.

John Dehlin [00:14:39] Extended family or immediate family?

Lisa [00:14:41] Well, not just our family, but my siblings.

Paul [00:14:44] Yeah. My family's around the whole country now. So it wasn't my, My family's through telephone pretty much.

John Dehlin [00:14:50] But so with anyone around Utah that you could. Lisa, you would.

Lisa [00:14:54] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:14:54] You were planning activities to try and keep connections. Go.

Lisa [00:14:58] Because I realized that we were going to go through some tough times and, and I realized too that this might be all we get is here. My, my. Some of my family lives for the future, lives for what's going to happen in heaven, but this might be all we get. So we need to stay close as a family.

Paul [00:15:17] And so we were little frankens as saying, please speak about your callings. Speak about what you're doing in your church callings. The only things that we will not appreciate is anything negative about people who think differently about the church or anything that's anti lgbt. We will discuss that and it'll be awkward. Besides that, those are boundaries we set for them.

John Dehlin [00:15:42] But then you also set boundaries for yourself with them.

Paul [00:15:45] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:15:45] By what. What was that? What did you tell them?

Paul [00:15:49] Well, we, we hope to someday be able to tell them of the non threatening things we're doing in our post Mormon life. But until that time, we just ask them to love us, include us, accept us and know that our hearts are coming from a right place. Please don't think that we're. That when you're saying things about the church that we're and we're not, we try really hard not to be saying negative things in our sight inside about them or judging them for what they're doing inside the church.

John Dehlin [00:16:20] Reassure them that you wouldn't mess with their faith.

Lisa [00:16:22] Yes, yes, yes.

John Dehlin [00:16:24] You're respecting their boundaries.

Lisa [00:16:25] Yes.

Paul [00:16:25] Right, right.

Lisa [00:16:27] We're not messing with your kids and

Paul [00:16:29] we're not trying to say bad things about them. And, and sometimes it's hard.

John Dehlin [00:16:33] How did that work?

Lisa [00:16:35] Like for the first six months it was a little. No, probably three months. It was a little awkward. Ish, but very awkward. We're getting there and it will never be the same.

Paul [00:16:48] But it's much better.

Lisa [00:16:49] But it's much, much better.

Paul [00:16:51] We went to a baptism of one of our nephews. It was I. Everybody gets up afterwards to do the confirmation. I'm sitting there. I see them sad that I'm sitting there. But I think even though nothing said, I think they also see that we are showing up.

Lisa [00:17:07] We're not here. We're not distancing ourselves from the family.

John Dehlin [00:17:12] Got it? Okay. Wow. Was that hard for you guys to Do.

Paul [00:17:16] It's still hard.

John Dehlin [00:17:17] What's hard about that?

Paul [00:17:18] It's hard because on both sides there are things that are said that we have different views on that we'd like to talk about. Such as they just got back from the handcart trek this summer. And so many of the narratives that are taught on the handcart trek we know now are not accurate. We just need to shut up and be happy for them that they had a good time, which we've done. But it's not easy to do when you have this new knowledge. We don't want to rain on their parade, we don't want them to rain on our parade. And we've got a long ways to go, but we do love them and love, we really believe love will win in the end.

Kyle [00:17:59] And they love us.

Paul [00:18:00] And they love us too.

John Dehlin [00:18:03] Do you feel like second class citizens in the family now where everybody's looking down on you?

Paul [00:18:08] You could, but we claim our authority. We don't allow that to happen. Lisa is the amazing Lisa Ant. Lisa goes over and talks to every one of the kids. I am Paul, who loves the kids. I love my brother, I cheer him on, my brother in law, my other brother. We show up to the football games, we cheer on our kid and it's authentic. We want to be with our family. So we show up, we're there, we don't.

Paul [00:18:36] What is said after we leave, we don't know. But we're so confident in where we are. And I think that's a major lesson is when you're confident of where you are with the decisions you've made, it's okay if they need to say things or process things as long as they, you know they love you and we do know they love you. But I'm sure this is hard for them. But if you claim your authority and be confident in the decisions you've made, which we are, it helps a lot.

John Dehlin [00:19:02] How about you, Lisa? Like, I can think for myself. Oh, they may not like me, they may not like who I am. I'm this dangerous person. I'm going to stay away, I'm going to keep my distance. I'll just be estranged from that side of the family and I'll develop relationships elsewhere.

Lisa [00:19:19] Believe me, that's crossed my mind.

John Dehlin [00:19:21] But what, why haven't you done that?

Lisa [00:19:26] Therapy helped a lot. And just the fact that I really do want to have a relationship with these people, it's really important to me. It's important to be authentic. Lots of Brene Brown. I've been listening to Lots of get

Paul [00:19:43] rid of shame, false guilt.

John Dehlin [00:19:45] But if you're not talking to them about who you really are and what you really think, how are you being authentic?

Lisa [00:19:49] We can still talk about our kids, how work's going, just the. And we're even getting more to. We can talk about what they're doing in church.

John Dehlin [00:20:05] And you're. Are you biting your tongue a lot?

Lisa [00:20:07] No, I just let them talk. I.

John Dehlin [00:20:10] You are biting his tongue.

Lisa [00:20:11] Yeah.

Paul [00:20:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:12] Okay.

Lisa [00:20:12] But we still have the big event.

John Dehlin [00:20:15] Okay, go for it. Is that next? What's next?

Kyle Comes Out Publicly and Plans a Wedding

Lisa [00:20:21] Oh, so then we were talking about why we told them so in November, Kyle came out.

Kyle [00:20:30] Yeah. So I just. I know it's been a big, like, popular thing that a lot of people have been coming out on, like, Facebook and social media and stuff. And so one big thing that I did in high school was I made videos. And so I got the idea to have a big group of my friends and I make a video together and just kind of showcase, like, unity. And not just unity, but, like, strength in our individualism. So we made that video, and then we released it on my birthday last year.

John Dehlin [00:20:58] When was that?

Kyle [00:20:59] November 16, 2015. Yeah, 15.

John Dehlin [00:21:02] It's a great video, by the way. We'll post a link to it. It's really fun.

Paul [00:21:07] That'd be excellent.

John Dehlin [00:21:08] Now, that's just a week or two after the church came out with its policy.

Kyle [00:21:11] Yeah, exactly.

Paul [00:21:13] That's a big thing.

John Dehlin [00:21:14] Is that what motivated you to make the video? Or had you.

Kyle [00:21:16] Well, interestingly enough, I got interviewed by a TV station, and they asked me, like, what I thought about the policy change as I was, like, making. I was on my way to make the video, and I was like, wait, I can't do this right now, because I'm gonna. I'm making a video. And it was. But that has nothing to do with anything. But it didn't really. I had always planned on releasing it on my birthday. The policy just kind of happened.

John Dehlin [00:21:42] Okay. Okay. All right.

Lisa [00:21:43] And Kyle said before he didn't expect that the church. Whatever.

Kyle [00:21:46] Yeah, the policy change. I. I've talked to a lot of LGBTQ kids who are around my age that the policy change didn't really shock me at all.

John Dehlin [00:21:57] Why not?

Kyle [00:21:58] I didn't ever expect to be able to be gay and have a life in the church. Like, because I had always. Like, I. I had dated girls in high school. Like, I was trying to find my ticket to the celestial kingdom with one of them. And so it was just, like, that was always a plan. I was gonna take it Was never like, I'll have a husband.

John Dehlin [00:22:19] You never had hope?

Kyle [00:22:20] Yeah, never had. I never had any hope. So there's no hope to be dashed.

John Dehlin [00:22:25] Sorry. Alright, so you came out with that video?

Kyle [00:22:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:29] Was that the big thing?

Lisa [00:22:30] Yeah. And so that was huge because it was at that time for our family that the church is saying they're awful apostates and we're saying, no, he's a great kid.

Paul [00:22:41] It's very difficult here. Family members, in terms of biting your tongue, say that that policy change is all about love. It's like looking at a white wall and seeing a black wall. And they keep saying it's white, it's black, it's white. It is so clear to us that it's nothing kind. There's nothing kind about it. It's so marginalizing and othering and it's not of a God that professes love. It's so clear to us. And to hear people we love say that, it forces us to remember a time we were there. And it's sad to do that, but we've got to do that because we want to continue to love these people and help where we can.

Lisa [00:23:23] All right, so probably the last event is the wedding.

Kyle [00:23:27] So.

John Dehlin [00:23:28] Yes. So you have your return. Missionary son falls in love. And this is like every transitioning Mormon's nightmare that they're going to be outside the walls of the temple when their own child gets married. So tell us about that.

Paul [00:23:44] We hear about that from a lot of people.

Lisa [00:23:46] So he was amazing about it. He knew from the beginning that we wouldn't be there. He met this girl at byu. They've been going to the open house of the Provo City Center Castle and loved it, thought it was beautiful. And we knew that that's if it came to marriage, which it was kind of fast. But that's what happens at byu. We knew that that would be where they got married. And we had a lovely conversation with him before saying, we won't be in there with you, but know that your parents love you. No matter what. We would be there.

Paul [00:24:32] It was really important to have that frank conversation, although we didn't delve into deep doctrinal issues at all. The whole point was to say, reichard, do not allow anybody to think less of us or less of our relationship with you and our love for you, because we're not there. We would love to be there and we will support you in other ways, but we just can't be there. And he got it really fast, which helps us rather than some other situations that Other people deal with. Reicher got that. And he said, dad, Mom, I promise I will not let you anyone speak negatively about you in there.

Paul [00:25:10] Which meant the world to us. And that helped us frame the. And it was started by the way we handled him when he came from his mission that love had continued. That helped it be so much better for us. We also did not.

Paul [00:25:25] We didn't want to be in there. We know what happens in there. So the night before it happened, we actually had a waka group and they were very helpful in getting us ready for this, you know, and we knew it was going to be hard.

John Dehlin [00:25:36] What does that mean, a Walker group? Lisa?

Lisa [00:25:37] Well, they had invited a guest speaker to come and invited the husbands to come, too. So we went and heard this guest speaker and all were together. It was really fun.

Paul [00:25:47] It was really cool. Because next day they knew that you

John Dehlin [00:25:49] were on the eve of the.

Paul [00:25:50] Yeah, so we told them that. We didn't tell them much more.

Lisa [00:25:53] We actually made an event of the reception and if anyone could to come down and support us and be there

Paul [00:26:01] for us now, I want to validate that. It is barbaric. There's no reason to separate families on that most important days. You could separate the ceiling from the marriage very easily, and it wouldn't hurt anything to do that. And the way we handled that with Rikers, with our son's permission, is that he agreed to do a ring ceremony at the dinner afterwards and to publicly make other vows to each other within our presence there.

John Dehlin [00:26:31] The bishop didn't object to that.

Lisa [00:26:32] We didn't have the bishop.

Paul [00:26:34] He was not involved at all.

John Dehlin [00:26:35] Bishop wasn't involved?

Paul [00:26:36] No. We claimed our authority as parents of him and we were in charge of the wedding dinner. Afterwards, we had a beautiful program. Our family members performed. Kyle sang a song. It was. I love to hear Kyle talk about it.

Kyle [00:26:53] I sang Can't Help Falling in Love. Oh, I Can't Help Falling in Love by Elvis Presley. She's my parent song. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:02] And you guys didn't. I imagined when I was on my way out of the church, but my kids were still in. I imagined trying to pressure them to not get married in the temple and to wait a year or to separate the civil ceremony from the religious one. And you guys didn't do that. Lisa. Why?

Lisa [00:27:24] We had raised him this way. This is the path that he was on. This is his sweet little bride. This was her dream. This is who they are. There's no way we would have asked them to do that for us. It lasted 45 minutes, but isn't that

John Dehlin [00:27:44] the mother of the groom's worst nightmare to not be able to attend her own son's wedding? Swallow that.

Lisa [00:27:53] We had had another Waka lady do this a couple of weeks before, and she had done it with her husband. Marriage that was ending because of the church, and she had done it with her husband on the inside and her on the outside alone. So actually, I felt really blessed to be where we were at.

John Dehlin [00:28:13] I've seen somebody else have it worse.

Lisa [00:28:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:15] Okay.

Paul [00:28:16] And I think also helped is we. We didn't put much value in what happened inside that building. We put our value in the love we have for that boy and the love he was expressing for his sweetheart. And he did that in front of us as well afterwards. And that's where we put our value. So we chose to put on a happy face. And it wasn't hard. We were happy all day long. We didn't let other people get us down.

Paul [00:28:41] Our family members, we validate their pain. They had a hard time with us not being in the temple. Fathers and other family members would come out and we would say, we are so sorry this is causing you pain, but we're really good. And this is not about us today. It's about them. Let's make it about them. We are happy. We are great. And we really were, John. We weren't faking it. We were happy.

John Dehlin [00:29:06] How about you, Carl?

Kyle [00:29:07] That, I think, was the. I had gone through a rough patch, like, a little bit of fear after I came out to go back to the family. I kind of took a while for me to go back. And that event was so amazing because we had Riker. During his talk, he, like, endorsed my parents, which was amazing. It was just so cool to hear him say, like, I love them and, like, they are my parents. Instead of, like, what. He could have gone the exact opposite way when he said, like. He's just said, I just love you guys. And it was just incredible for him to hear.

Paul [00:29:43] I will defend them till the end of the day. And I don't want to hear anything

Kyle [00:29:46] negative about him in the middle of his speech, which we all knew what he was talking about. The dinner, after dinner with everybody there. Yeah, we all knew what he was talking about. So I was like, yeah, powerful.

John Dehlin [00:29:58] That's powerful.

Kyle [00:29:59] And then.

Paul [00:29:59] Should I tell. Yeah. And tell about you.

Kyle [00:30:02] So I had one of my grandfather, my grandfather's on one side, was not so happy about me coming out. He sent me a. Sorry, I keep forgetting. He just wasn't. He's older. He was part of the older generation. He thinks that this is something that could be fixed, and it's just my cross to bear. And I had three different people go up to him and say, like, don't you dare talk to Kyle. Like, just give him his space. And it was like, my sister, which was incredible for me because I love her so much. And. And then it was one of my aunts.

John Dehlin [00:30:39] So your believing sister is coming to your defense, telling grandpa not to say anything mean.

Kyle [00:30:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:46] To you for being gay.

Paul [00:30:48] And he wouldn't mean it.

Kyle [00:30:49] Mean.

Paul [00:30:49] Yeah.

Kyle [00:30:50] But, yeah, it was incredible. I, like, lost it when I found out. And then I had one my. Yeah. Then another aunt and my grandma all came to my defense.

Paul [00:31:01] Tell about your aunt hugging you.

Kyle [00:31:02] Oh, so I have. One of my aunts is just. She's always been. We lived really close to them when I was growing up, so I was always very close to her. And just as I was leaving, as we were packing up, she just hugged me and just said, like, nothing's changed, Kyle. We just love you so much. Please come back. And it just. It just. Just meant so much to me. And it was just. I don't know, that was kind of my peak that I felt like I had gotten to a happy point with my family, and I don't really have to. Like, I don't have issues anymore as far as family goes with the gay thing.

John Dehlin [00:31:39] It's kind of healing for you.

Kyle [00:31:40] Yeah, it was definitely healing.

Community Support at a Meaningful Milestone

John Dehlin [00:31:42] Elisa talk. This is one of my favorite stories in the 12 years I've been doing Mormon stories. But tell us what the Waka women did for you at this difficult time where your son's getting married and go into as much detail as you want.

Lisa [00:31:59] So they had said Kim had made an event of this wedding to come and support Lisa.

Paul [00:32:06] Support Lisa.

Kyle [00:32:07] Yeah.

Lisa [00:32:08] And they like a Facebook event. Yeah. In our group. And the next. The day after the dinner was over.

John Dehlin [00:32:18] The day of the wedding.

Lisa [00:32:19] The day of the wedding. The first. So we did the wedding, the dinner, then had the reception right after that. And the first people to show up at the reception are 10 of the waka ladies. Just came, put their arms around me, gave me love, gave me support, stayed visited, met my family. I could introduce them to people in my family. They met Kyle just to say, these are my friends. I'm loved. These ladies love me no matter where I'm at. We took pictures. They met the bride and groom. Loved on them. They were just amazing.

Paul [00:33:03] Really helped the bride and groom to see that.

John Dehlin [00:33:07] So you kind of got love bombed by The Walkers, it's a big.

Paul [00:33:11] It meant the world to us that they would. And these are accomplished women, very accomplished, intelligent, sharp, and busy, busy women. And they gave up their time on a weekday to break away from their schedule to come to support us that day. It meant a lot to us.

John Dehlin [00:33:29] What did that mean to you, Lisa?

Lisa [00:33:30] Oh, made it so I could think that it was a celebration. In no way at all was that a bad mood. Anything down on me. It was a beautiful, beautiful day because of the love that I just felt radiating from them.

Paul [00:33:52] A lot of people wonder, who are these people leaving? The church and the people we've associated with through Felicia's Facebook group are some of the best and brightest the church has to offer. I would be very scared if I were them seeing the caliber of people leaving. They are amazing people, and they're not bitter and angry and, yes, they have some anger, and yes, we all do, but they are about love and about support and helping each other. And I also want to just, also, before we leave this narrative, just say our family was wonderful that day, too, in a very difficult situation. We knew they were in pain.

Lisa [00:34:33] They.

Paul [00:34:34] They reached out to us in love, and we reached back to them in love. And there was a lot of hugging going on that day. It was a beautiful, healing moment for us in our family rather than us being really mad about it. And we understand those people that are for us. It was a very much a healing moment for us.

John Dehlin [00:34:52] Beautiful.

Paul [00:34:54] That's our story, and we're sticking to it.

Where the Family Stands Now and Lessons Learned

John Dehlin [00:34:55] All right, so let's just. Where are you guys now? Where is everyone now? What do you want to share to conclude and are there any. Any lessons learned or, you know, final thoughts you want to share?

Lisa [00:35:10] Don't go first.

Kyle [00:35:11] Oh, yeah, I am just up at Utah State just going to college. No, I can't think. Oh, with the church. I've written my letter. I am officially not on the records. I tried to get it on my account the other day, and I was denied access. And so, yeah, I'm out.

John Dehlin [00:35:32] How's that? How's college going for you?

Paul [00:35:34] It's good.

Kyle [00:35:35] It's really good. It's stressful, but that's college, so. But it's awesome.

John Dehlin [00:35:39] Have you been able to find a friend group or a peer group? How'd you find them at a Utah school?

Kyle [00:35:45] Well, actually, most of my friends are LDs, and so. And that actually hasn't been. They're incredibly loving and welcoming, and they are. They're kind of more liberal LDs, but they're all still LDs. But, yeah, so I just. Just met them through random encounters and we kind of just got together. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:10] Okay. And are you. Have you started dating yet or.

Kyle [00:36:13] Kind of.

Lisa [00:36:14] Yeah.

Paul [00:36:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:15] You don't have to give any details.

Kyle [00:36:18] Yeah, I kind of. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:20] And is that nice?

Kyle [00:36:21] Yeah, it's good. It's. It's nice.

John Dehlin [00:36:24] Do you ever wish you could have started when you were 16?

Kyle [00:36:26] Oh, all the time. But being from rural Utah, that was gonna happen. Real scary.

John Dehlin [00:36:33] Yeah. But now you're able to date a little bit and make some friends and things are going okay.

Kyle [00:36:40] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:36:41] All right. Yep. Who's next? How are. How are the other children? So have you ever sat down with your daughter and just said, we're so sorry for how we handled that. We mishandled it. Can we start again or something to recreate that love moment you had with your returned missionary son or not?

Lisa [00:37:03] So it's really hard because we don't get very many opportunities to do that. And the phone is not so great.

John Dehlin [00:37:10] So you don't get together very much?

Lisa [00:37:12] No.

Paul [00:37:12] She's in California.

John Dehlin [00:37:13] And you guys don't talk, so it's just kind of right now really estranged?

Paul [00:37:20] No. We will Skype when see the grandkids. And we're making lots of progress. We have tried to talk about it, but when we open up the subject she doesn't want. She's asked us not to talk about it.

John Dehlin [00:37:32] Even if you want to apologize.

Paul [00:37:33] We have apologized. We have apologized. And if she does listen to this, I hope she didn't hear anything we said today, but that we love her

Lisa [00:37:41] and we know we did wrong and she said, thank you, but I don't want to talk about it.

John Dehlin [00:37:48] Okay. She's respecting the.

Lisa [00:37:50] Yes. Yes.

Paul [00:37:51] We're playing the long game. We're just going to love her to death.

Lisa [00:37:53] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:37:54] Okay. And older son, oldest son.

Lisa [00:37:58] He's great. He's wonderful.

John Dehlin [00:38:01] You guys are close.

Lisa [00:38:02] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:38:03] And. And Richard, missionary son.

Lisa [00:38:05] He's wonderful. And his. His new little bride is amazing. Loves us.

John Dehlin [00:38:11] Really?

Lisa [00:38:12] Yeah.

Kyle [00:38:13] Even though she's a believer, she's great.

Lisa [00:38:15] Yeah. Yep.

John Dehlin [00:38:16] And how's the family unity now?

Paul [00:38:20] I really believe it's as good as it can be given the circumstances. There's a part of us they don't want to see and can't see that I think would enrich their life, but yet it would hurt them. On the other hand, there's parts of them we're not seeing either. That's difficult. But yet, on the other hand, it's probably not a place for us right now. But with that being said, if we. If I'm looking at myself, continue to honor the boundaries and celebrate the boundaries, we're really. We'll get there, and we love them and we have a close relationship.

John Dehlin [00:38:52] You're saying celebrate the boundaries because they allow the relationship to continue thriving.

Paul [00:38:58] Rice.

Kyle [00:38:58] Right?

Lisa [00:38:59] Definitely.

Paul [00:38:59] Yep, definitely. And it's a powerful message. That's not easy.

John Dehlin [00:39:04] Celebrate the boundaries. You guys get that? Celebrate the boundaries. Okay. Any other lessons learned or looking back? Regrets? No regrets.

Paul [00:39:19] It's interesting. Obviously, we regret our situation with our daughter, but that being said, I think we, with your help, and we do, would like to say a couple more things. In our journey, the podcast world has been very, very beneficial. John Larsen's podcast was very, very helpful, very doctrinally rich. Between yours and his, we got to know a man named John Hamer. Oh, yeah, that was. I know this is gonna probably sound terrible, but he is the first gay man we've really known, and it was through podcasts, right? And, yes, we know of some, but we felt we knew John even though we didn't.

Lisa [00:39:59] John taught us a lot about how it is to be gay.

Paul [00:40:03] He speaks about it often, and we have such a respect for that man.

John Dehlin [00:40:06] Like you call him on the phone

Lisa [00:40:08] just in the podcast.

Paul [00:40:10] We met him at Sunstone. Yeah, we met him at Sunstone this year. He could not have been kinder. He sent Kyle a text after Sunstone saying it was the highlight of Sunstone for him to meet Kyle. I can't tell you how much that meant to me. So Lindsay's handsome parks. Gina. We. We've even enjoyed Dan's and Bill Rio's podcast.

John Dehlin [00:40:34] Gina Colvin, Bill Real.

Paul [00:40:36] Even though they're very nuance y Dan and Bill Moore, at least they're honest with the facts. And even though they may live in a space that my orthodoxy, the way I see black and white. And in a way, I feel like I was damaged because that's the way I saw the world, and I do now. I can't live in the world they live in, but I honor them and I respect their academic integrity.

Lisa [00:41:00] So being out there all by ourselves in our rural Utah town, podcasts have been a huge lifesaver for us.

John Dehlin [00:41:08] So thank you for podcasts.

Kyle [00:41:09] Yes, yes.

Paul [00:41:10] And thank you, John. John, you provided a safe environment that we could start investigating this stuff. And we kind of went on our journey with you a little bit. Not total, you know, not even close to what you were doing, but we felt even those early years, some of the places you were going and how much you Tried to make things work. Not necessarily. That was always the best answer for everybody, and you acknowledge that, but trying to make a place for people. And I always felt that you acted with the most integrity of your heart to try to help people. And we really have a lot of respect for that.

John Dehlin [00:41:48] Thank you. So, Paul, are you happier now than you were 10, 20 years ago?

Kyle [00:41:53] Yeah.

Paul [00:41:53] That's obviously a question. And you ask, do I regret anything the mission, I regret tracting, I regret street displays, but I don't regret my missionary companions and my missionary presidents or loving the German people. Am I happier today? I am disappointed with the pain that the church has caused with relationships. I wish that wasn't there. That does not make me happy. But my relationship with the world is. Instead of trying to hunker down in church and to be really small and just not feeling totally bought in as opposed to where I am now, I'm all excited to tell Lisa all the things I'm learning and we're going on this journey together. And I am much happier now than I've ever been and I'm at peace with our decision now.

John Dehlin [00:42:42] Lisa, you were the Energizer Bunny. Tbm. Are you happier now?

Lisa [00:42:46] Definitely. I feel like my brain has been able to grow so much that I can think about and form opinions that are my own that I don't have to think, oh, what does the church teach about this? And then I have to think that I can read and discover. I'm reading tons of brain books and how the brain works to figure out why my brain could think this and my other family members can't. And I just feel like I've grown and been able to do things I never would have been able to in the church.

Paul [00:43:21] One of the biggest blessings is if you can, are fortunate to make this journey together. It really brings you close together.

John Dehlin [00:43:27] That was my next question. How has it impacted your relationship?

Lisa [00:43:30] Oh, huge. We started walking because we had to leave the house because Kyle was there. And we can go on walks and we lose track of time because we're talking so much. And by this time, we've been married 30 years now. It might be getting old, but for us it's been refreshing and new. It's like seeing the world again for the first time. Doing things and experiencing things that we haven't for the first time is keeping us young.

Paul [00:44:01] Another thing that's enhanced our marriage is we've been able to get rid of false guilt and shame. So you would think, and there's so much shame involved with not following Every rule to a table. And a lot of that is false game, false guilt, and false shame, meaning it's about stuff that's just about obedience rather than stuff that's really detrimental.

Paul [00:44:27] We still feel like we're wonderful people, but do we like coffee now? Yeah, we really do like coffee. We also like our second Saturdays. We love our second Saturdays. And spending more time together. There's just been a lot of things that enrich our lives in deciding what we want to wear and just little things that just enhanced our life and that we don't need to have guilt and shame now. If we are mean to people, we should feel guilt.

Paul [00:44:58] That is a core tenant of what we want to move forward is being kind to everybody and to not be mean and to have integrity as well as what we say. We think those are things that are really important to us moving forward.

John Dehlin [00:45:16] All right, so to conclude the way we always conclude, this has been a fabulous story. Thank you so much for sharing. I really loved it. Really grateful. The way we always end Mormon stories is with people sharing kind of what they believe now. So we're going to start with Kyle. We'll go to Paul, and then we'll go to Lisa and ready for this. And we'll conclude with just a few things that you believe.

Kyle [00:45:44] Okay. I know that this community is very beneficial, and I think that it helps a lot of people who are transitioning away from the church.

John Dehlin [00:45:58] And

Kyle [00:46:01] I'm very grateful for everything that it's done for us and done for our family because I didn't really have a relationship with my dad before, and now he's one of my best friends. And so I'm very grateful for everything. I don't know.

Lisa [00:46:21] Yeah, I have a hard time knowing things anymore, but I have a lot of hope. I live my life with a lot of hope of what I hope is going to happen and what I can sink my teeth into. The love that I feel towards people.

Paul [00:46:43] I value my relationship with my wife more than ever, and I want to work every day to make it better as well as her. The word no doesn't mean a lot to me anymore. And even belief. The problem I have with religion in general now is when I.

Paul [00:47:05] My faith in Christian values. Not values, but the Christian narrative was based upon Joseph Smith seeing what he said he saw. Now that I don't believe he saw what he said he saw, it's hard for me to even know what that means. And as I look more into the problems in the New Testament and that count, there's issues there too. I just choose to have hope that there's something after this life. What that means, I don't spend a lot of time thinking about. But I want to treat people with kindness and love and respect for what and allow them to have their journeys. And hopefully they'll allow us to have our journeys.

Paul [00:47:41] But I don't waste a lot of time and I have zero interest in organized religion anymore. I feel so betrayed in all we put into this and for those that it works, fantastic. But that's not where I'm going. And our family and family means everything to us. And if this isn't our only life, then let's make it a good one.

John Dehlin [00:48:07] Beautiful. All right, well, we want to extend our heartfelt thanks to Paul and Lisa and Kyle for sharing this epic story. We want to thank their other family members for being a part of this story, whether they knew it or not. We love you guys and we respect all your journeys.

John Dehlin [00:48:33] We hope you guys have benefited from this podcast. Please go up to MormonStories.org, share your comments there. We'd love to hear from you. I'm sure Paul, Lisa and Kyle would be willing to go up there and answer any questions you have.

John Dehlin [00:48:48] We want to encourage you to check out Mormon Transitions Podcast in the weeks and months and years ahead. We're going to be focusing on supporting people in their transition and there's a lot we're doing there. So pay attention to that podcast as well. We want to thank everyone who donates to the Open Stories foundation to any of the podcasts mentioned. A thoughtful faith, Mormon matters, Mormon Transitions, Mormon Stories.

John Dehlin [00:49:14] If you guys will just go up and become monthly subscribers at whatever amount you're comfortable. $10 a month, $20 a month, whatever you can. That money goes towards allowing us as podcasters to provide this content. It also allows us to support some administrative support, some staff, technological support, all sorts of things that we need to reach more and more people and to bring them joy and health and happiness. So please support these podcasts through a monthly donation. And thanks to all of you who do.

John Dehlin [00:49:47] We're going to be doing more stuff with Missionary series. We have other really exciting series planned as well. So thank you so much for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Check us out again soon. Share these episodes with with family and friends, because you never know how sharing a Mormon Stories episode might help another one who's struggling. And again, we'll conclude by thanking Paul, Lisa and Kyle for sharing your story.

Paul [00:50:16] Thank you, John.

Lisa [00:50:17] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:50:17] Have a safe try at home.

Paul [00:50:18] Appreciate it all right.

John Dehlin [00:50:20] Take care, everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.