Welcome and Episode Introduction

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is May 6, 2025. I am here on location in Knoxville, Tennessee, for part two of a two part series here from Knoxville. Today's episode is called My Dad Ruined My Mormon Wedding. And we're here with Nathan Hinckley and Kaylee Daniels. Hey, guys.

Nathan Hinckley [00:00:27] Hi, John. Hi, Margi.

John Dehlin [00:00:29] Do y' all have some Southern welcome that you do here in Knoxville?

Nathan Hinckley [00:00:33] Well, we would just get up and give you a big hug if we could, but we. We've got all these mics just perfectly set, so.

John Dehlin [00:00:40] How do you like that title, Nathan? You feel good about that?

Kayli Hinckley [00:00:42] I feel.

Nathan Hinckley [00:00:43] I feel pretty good about that. I think it's. I think it's appropriate.

John Dehlin [00:00:46] How about you?

Margi Dehlin [00:00:46] Kaylee encapsulates it perfectly.

John Dehlin [00:00:48] Okay, well, that's a little teaser for today's episode. If y' all are just stumbling on this episode without having seen the previous one. The episode immediately released prior to this is the McCormicks where we talked about Lindsay and Todd. Todd. And, you know, it's another Knoxville story, but we talked primarily about the Hinckley family, kind of Lindsay's family and what happened in terms of Todd and Lindsay questioning and ultimately leaving their Mormon faith and the difficulties that that sort of presented. Not only in their ward and in their stake, they were threatened with excommunication twice. It's definitely an interview worth checking out. So if you haven't listened to that yet or watched that yet, we recommend you pause this one, go back and watch that. It will provide important context for today because Bishop Nathan Hinckley is Lindsay Hinckley McCormick's brother. Is that right?

Nathan Hinckley [00:01:51] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:01:52] So you're Lindsay's brother.

Kayli Hinckley [00:01:53] Yep.

Nathan Hinckley [00:01:54] And we. So we're the middle two siblings, and we have two other brothers as well, so.

John Dehlin [00:02:00] And for those who didn't listen, this Hinckley name is uniquely Mormon. Is that right?

Nathan Hinckley [00:02:04] Oh, of course. So we are second cousins three times removed to Gordon B. Hinckley, who was. Who was. Well, he was. I. I call him my prophet, you know, from my. My time growing up. So, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:20] So y' all are kind of royalty. Mormon royalty, a little bit.

Nathan Hinckley [00:02:23] You know, I guess you could say that.

John Dehlin [00:02:25] So we're going to be talking about Nathan and Kaylee's relationship as father, daughter and faith, stuff that happened with them that impacted her wedding, et cetera. But it's also just in the context of kind of the. A Knoxville Hinckley kind of heavily Mormon family and how faith crises kind of impact, as we used to call it, the mission field, which, bizarrely, is any location outside of Utah Mormons call the mission field. Have y' all heard that before?

Nathan Hinckley [00:02:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:57] Yeah.

Nathan Hinckley [00:02:59] And I, you know, I get it, too. Just, I feel like it's different. It's different out here. You know, um, growing up in a school that you're the only Mormon family, I feel like it's, you know, there. There is a difference in the. The mission field.

John Dehlin [00:03:17] Yeah. And then we probably should mention, Nathan, that you've been on Mormon Stories once before, at least. Do you want to talk about that?

Nathan's First Appearance on Mormon Stories

Nathan Hinckley [00:03:23] Yeah, I was just looking it up before you got here, John. It's almost exactly a year ago. I think we're just shy, maybe two weeks. But so I had posted on the Mormon Stories community page that my stake president wanted to talk to me about my Facebook posts. And I put a picture on there that said, this is me on my way to talk to the stake president. And after a short time after that, you and I spoke and, you know, we kind of did a follow up on how that all went.

John Dehlin [00:03:58] Yeah. Yep. And so that's all probably going to come up again a little bit, because I think. Think even that Mormon Stories interview you did had implications for your family as well. So. Yeah. Strap in for another classic Mormon Stories with a little bit of Southern flair for today. And, Margi, you're here with us as well. What are you doing here in Knoxville?

Margi Dehlin [00:04:21] Happy to be here.

John Dehlin [00:04:25] Margi and I are sharing microphones today because we had a problem with our mixer, so.

Kayli Hinckley [00:04:31] That's right, we are.

John Dehlin [00:04:33] All right. Anyway, it's good to be here. It's fun to. Occasionally we do these. We did a remote interview in Nashville with the Ellsworth Rogers. Anyway, it's fun to be back in Tennessee. Let's just back up really quick. Even though we will have covered this a bit with Lindsey and Todd. But let's just briefly tell from your perspective how the Hinckley end up in Tennessee and you know, what it was like from your perspective. A bit. Nathan growing up as a Mormon. Devout Mormon as a Hinckley in Knoxville, Tennessee area.

Nathan Growing Up Mormon in Knoxville

Margi Dehlin [00:05:09] Perfect.

Nathan Hinckley [00:05:09] Okay. So I was born in Utah, in Layton, Utah. I now have a son named Leighton. But I won't jump ahead too much. We moved to the south when I was a baby, so we moved to Georgia and then settled in Tennessee. We actually came. My parents were musicians. They played music, and they were mostly country music. And so there was a lot more demand for that out in this part of the country. So they came to Tennessee. You might have heard of Dollywood before they, they played at Dollywood for 20 years as a, as a duo. As a, a music, mostly country music duo. Anyways, so music brought my family to Tennessee and music has actually been a large part of all of our lives. I'll probably get into that a little bit later. But anyways, grew up in the Knoxville. Knoxville area. Did all of the normal things like, you know, Eagle Scout, dad was our scout master, you know, the youth conference, youth conferences. In that time, we used to do a lot of church activities like church basketball, church softball, church dances. I met my then girlfriend when I was several months shy of my 15th birthday. Um, and so we kind of started dating a little bit. Well, we dated until we got married. So I won't jump ahead there either yet. But anyway, so growing up was great. You know, we, I loved it. I felt like I was different. Was the only member my family, you know, the only member family in our school for the most part. So it was, it was, but I loved being different. I loved being right. I loved being part of the true church and it was, it was great.

John Dehlin [00:07:19] So was your family, was there a lot of sort of true believing Mormon orthodoxy in your family growing up in the Hinckley family in Knoxville? Or was it more liberal? Was it more loosey goosey Southern? You know, how was it?

Nathan Hinckley [00:07:33] Yeah, so I think it was for the most part. I mean, we were always active. There was never a time of inactivity.

John Dehlin [00:07:42] Meaning you attended weekly?

Nathan Hinckley [00:07:44] We attended weekly. Even when mom and dad would be singing late night, Saturday night, you know, we would get up and we, we were always active. I don't feel like we probably were that great at, you know, scripture study and things like that. We did a lot of, we did a lot of family time. So we might not have had traditional family home evening, but we did a lot of family activities. So I mean, for the most. No, not loosey goosey. We were, we were true believing and, and we lived, you know, so.

John Dehlin [00:08:18] Alcohol? No. Alcohol?

Nathan Hinckley [00:08:19] Oh, no, no.

John Dehlin [00:08:19] Tea?

Nathan Hinckley [00:08:20] No, no, no.

John Dehlin [00:08:21] Coffee? Tobacco?

Nathan Hinckley [00:08:23] No, none of that.

John Dehlin [00:08:24] John and R rated movies.

Nathan Hinckley [00:08:26] No.

John Dehlin [00:08:27] Shoulders? Women. Shoulders. Mini skirts.

Kayli Hinckley [00:08:32] Did you show your shoulders?

Nathan Hinckley [00:08:34] I did show my shoulders, but you know, all of the things that we joke about it now, but that was, that was just normal life. Now that I've been out, I, I, we go back and we're like, oh, we never saw this movie or that movie. But no, we didn't watch rated R movies. We didn't do those things. And of course The. The word of wisdom. That was. That was easy. I mean, it wasn't even a challenge. It was just. We didn't do that.

John Dehlin [00:09:06] Did you grow up at a ward or a branch? A ward. Okay.

Nathan Hinckley [00:09:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:09] And a steak.

Nathan Hinckley [00:09:11] And what's the steak that you grew up in? The steak at first was just the Knoxville steak, and then it split. Okay. So there was.

John Dehlin [00:09:19] So there's growth.

Nathan Hinckley [00:09:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:21] Okay. And. And so in your high school, you were the only Mormon family, Is that what you said?

Nathan Hinckley [00:09:30] Yeah. So our ward covered a few schools, and so there were, you know, a few in each one. But I think our family in our high school was. Was the only Mormon family.

John Dehlin [00:09:43] And were there enough youth in your ward slash stake to have a vibrant youth program? We had a.

Nathan Hinckley [00:09:48] We had a pretty good size youth program, you know, probably. Probably 10 or 12 young men, and they were friends. And I will say the. The bishop that we had growing up was my idol. I loved the guy.

John Dehlin [00:10:05] What'd you love about him?

Nathan Hinckley [00:10:07] He was so animated. He almost would remind you of what you would think of as almost like a Baptist preacher who was talking with his hands and just. Really. Just a full of life guy.

John Dehlin [00:10:19] Southern guy?

Nathan Hinckley [00:10:21] Yeah, local. Local guy. He later became the stake president. And that's.

John Dehlin [00:10:29] He comes back into the story.

Nathan Hinckley [00:10:30] Yeah, he kind of comes back into the story.

John Dehlin [00:10:32] Okay.

Nathan Hinckley [00:10:34] So anyways, I. I love that guy. There was one time we did the road shows and he was getting released, and so this was a big steak activity, and I had put together a roadshow where I was being him. He had all these little catchphra that he would say. And so it was. It was a real hit just to just kind. Kind of. Kind of poke fun a little bit. But I. I idolized the guy. I. I just truly loved him. And it was a. A big part of growing up, you know, having a bishop that you. You wanted to be like him.

John Dehlin [00:11:12] Road shows are like mini musicals. Is that right?

Nathan Hinckley [00:11:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:15] You put them on for other congregations and.

Nathan Hinckley [00:11:17] Right.

John Dehlin [00:11:18] Have competitions and stuff?

Nathan Hinckley [00:11:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:20] And you did all the sports, like basketball and all that stuff? Softball job. Softball.

Nathan Hinckley [00:11:24] Yeah, we did softball, basketball. I think we even did some volleyball tournaments, too.

John Dehlin [00:11:31] So any. So let's just say your high school years in the church, did you do early morning seminary and all that? Yeah.

Nathan Hinckley [00:11:39] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:11:40] Yeah.

Nathan Hinckley [00:11:40] Not only that, I had an early morning choir class at school, so then I. Now I'm meeting early morning seminary before that. So I had two. Two classes before most other people even got going with their first.

John Dehlin [00:11:55] And were you one of those Mormon teens that kind of goofed off with the rules. The church rules in high school, or were you like a straight arrow or something in the middle?

Nathan Hinckley [00:12:04] I was pretty straight. You know, I know my daughter's sitting right beside me. Other than, you know, having to go talk to the bishop occasionally about my girlfriend. Other than that, it was pretty by the book, pretty by the rules.

John Dehlin [00:12:25] So by the time you graduate from high school, are you like a true believer, orthodox, ready for a mission and all that? Okay. Did you do something before your mission after high school or.

Nathan Hinckley [00:12:36] I just worked. Just worked. Did some construction and matter of fact. So my wife, her name is Amy and we. So she grew up on. On about 80 acres of family land. And there was one here. Yeah, here in. We're in about an hour north of Knoxville. Well, anyways, there was a house that. Long story short, it was called the Playhouse at the time. It was a big. It was a small house, but they called it the Playhouse. Well, her and I worked on this house before my mission and we said, we're going to get married and live here. And I served a mission in Argentina. And six weeks after I got back, we got married and moved into the playhouse that we had worked on and

John Dehlin [00:13:31] added onto and so on your wife's family's property, right? Is that right?

Nathan Hinckley [00:13:35] Okay.

The Hinckley Family's Standing in the Community

John Dehlin [00:13:36] Okay, Talk really quickly just about your. The Hinckley family's reputation within the wards and stakes of this area. Was it important to keep up the reputation? Did your family, you know, were there. Were they concerned about how they were perceived? And did the Hinckley name even play into that with Mormons in the Knoxville area or not?

Nathan Hinckley [00:13:59] That's a good question. I feel like there has always been a. I think most people, when they think of the Hinckley name, they associate it with music, especially in the stake. My dad would. Was on the High council a lot traveling, traveling around. There was multiple times that we put on steak sponsored firesides, like musical firesides. Later on, me and my two brothers start a band and we started doing some EFY entertainment.

John Dehlin [00:14:35] I joked it was like the Hillbilly Osmonds.

Margi Dehlin [00:14:37] Right.

John Dehlin [00:14:38] Did we come up with a good name for the.

Nathan Hinckley [00:14:40] Oh, we joked about it. I don't know. Said it on a name. But that, that if you. That. That would. That would have explained. Kind of described the Hinckley and really still does. That's a large part of who we are. But definitely active. Definitely. Always at all of the things, you know, at all of the events, all of the conferences or, you know, Wilderness Youth Conference and things like That, I

John Dehlin [00:15:06] guess, I guess I've noticed that in, in stakes outside of Utah, Mormon stakes, there are always these families, these Mormon families that are kind of pillars of the, you know, ward or stakes, you know, that they're a part of and they're just known as like. Yeah, yeah. You name five or six families in the stake and these are like the salt of the earth pillars of the church. Would the Hiku family maybe be kind of viewed as a pillar family in the Knoxville area for Mormons? Is that fair?

Nathan Hinckley [00:15:38] I would say so. Okay. And then we have, you know, family that would be, you know, grouped into all that. That my, My dad's sisters in our stake. And so anyways, between. Yes, I, I think we would be looked at as some of the pillars of the ward or, or stake.

John Dehlin [00:15:59] Okay.

Kayli Hinckley [00:15:59] All right.

John Dehlin [00:16:00] So you served a mission, you married your dear wife, and did y' all decide to settle here? Was there any question about where you would settle?

Nathan Hinckley [00:16:10] Well, no, not at first. You know, we settled like I said, in the playhouse and.

John Dehlin [00:16:16] But I mean, you weren't going to move to Utah?

Nathan Hinckley [00:16:18] No, no, no.

John Dehlin [00:16:19] You're going to stay in Tennessee?

Nathan Hinckley [00:16:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:20] Okay. Okay.

Nathan Hinckley [00:16:21] Yeah. Now there was a time that we did move around a little bit. I got a job doing LDS church construction. So I basically spent a year in three different states as a superintendent over the church job.

John Dehlin [00:16:40] So your profession, you know, through, let's just say Kaylee's high school became. How did it advance your. Your career, your occupation?

Nathan Hinckley [00:16:49] You know, that was, that was pretty much it. Just either doing those construction jobs or I did a lot of stuff on my own of building and remodeling and things like that.

John Dehlin [00:17:01] Videography. Did that come later?

Nathan Hinckley [00:17:03] That was a little bit later, yeah. So I was moving around at all these jobs in the Steak, but one of the Stake Presidency members said, you know, we really need you to be come back here. Well, we would come home on the weekends. So I had callings and everything. Then we were gone through the weeks for the construction job. Anyways, he gives me a blessing one time and in his blessing he says, I bless you that you'll be able to come back home and be. And help out the stake or something like that. And it was right after that that I started doing videography and I had always kind of associated the blessing with that, but it kind of took off and I've been, I've been doing it now for about 14 years and it's a full time job. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:46] Okay. So were you gonna raise your family just like you were raised did you have different ideas for your family culture and how it was going to be relative to your. Your parents sort of culture and family?

Nathan Hinckley [00:18:00] I would say I wanted to be just like my dad.

John Dehlin [00:18:04] Okay.

Nathan Hinckley [00:18:05] I wanted to. He was an Eagle Scout. I wanted to be an Eagle Scout. He went on a mission. So did I. He married in the temple. He did music. He was, you know, we were always really tight and close. So, no, I had. I had no other desires than to have a family, just like he does everyone in the church. And I wasn't looking or needing anything other than what I had.

John Dehlin [00:18:33] And your. It seems like your siblings all decided to settle here in the Knoxville area as well, which I think meant that y' all are all going to stay really close. Everyone in the church and a really close knit family. You were pretty close to your siblings, right?

Nathan Hinckley [00:18:48] Oh, for sure. So one brother actually did go to Nash. He's in the Nashville area, where he should be. He's a great songwriter, but still close enough that we have always got together. Like I said, we had a band, we would work together, we would do construction jobs together. Later, when I started the videography, that's also with one of my brothers. So we're. We were always either working or playing, you know, together.

Kayli Hinckley [00:19:20] And that.

Nathan Hinckley [00:19:20] That was just kind of. And I. I thought that was. It was so weird to see other families that didn't jive, you know, that didn't get along, or, you know, people would say, oh, no, you never start a business with family members. You know, that's kind of a. And I'm like, why? Like, you know, that. That. That just seems a normal thing for us. We have always been very tight.

Kayli Hinckley [00:19:44] Would you mind just taking a minute, like, if you were to describe your family, even growing up? But up to this point, like, what is your family vibe? What does it feel like? Because I think, you know, Mormon families can feel really different. I think some are really. There can be seriousness, intensity. What was, like, your family's vibe? It seems like with the music, that there's like a real aliveness, even fun.

Nathan Hinckley [00:20:08] Yeah. So, you know, anytime we would get together, so my parents have, like, a. A basement stage area, so it was always little music concerts just for the

John Dehlin [00:20:20] moment with your siblings and their children and everybody.

Nathan Hinckley [00:20:23] And with our parents as well. Yeah. So that was always one of the huge things for us. We also would like to play volleyball as a family. So, you know, that pretty much describes what we would like to do.

John Dehlin [00:20:40] And so could you have ever imagined, like, if I had gone to you five Years ago, like ghosts of Christmas past or whatever. And I just said, can you ever imagine a day where any members of your. Let's say, 15 years ago, could you ever imagine a day where some of your siblings will be out of the church? You probably would have said, what?

Nathan Hinckley [00:20:59] No.

John Dehlin [00:21:00] Yeah.

Kayli Hinckley [00:21:00] No.

Nathan Hinckley [00:21:00] Yeah. There was no indication that that would ever happen from, you know, even our extended family. Like, it wasn't just. Just our core family, but we were all in, and that's all we ever wanted for each other.

John Dehlin [00:21:18] And if I had gone back to you 10 or 15 years ago and said, can you imagine a day where church stuff actually strains or even divides relationships in your family? Could you have imagined that ever happening at all?

Nathan Hinckley [00:21:30] No, I would have said that the church would have been the most important part to keep people together.

John Dehlin [00:21:38] Yeah.

Nathan Hinckley [00:21:38] That there's no reason it would divide you. Just. It's true. I was very, very black and white. You know, true or false, right or wrong. And so for me, the church was true. And you needed to get in line and believe it. If they said it, that's what it was.

John Dehlin [00:21:57] You were kind of hardcore. You weren't. You weren't nuanced?

Nathan Hinckley [00:22:00] Not at all. I didn't. I didn't.

John Dehlin [00:22:02] Wait, Kylie, why are you laughing?

Nathan Hinckley [00:22:03] I didn't know the word nuance.

John Dehlin [00:22:06] Kaylee, tell us why you're laughing.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:08] Yeah, we didn't know the word nuance.

John Dehlin [00:22:10] No.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:10] That was not a word that we were taught growing up. No.

John Dehlin [00:22:13] Okay. Super orthodox.

Kayli Hinckley [00:22:15] Yes.

Kayli Growing Up in the Church

John Dehlin [00:22:16] All right, let's go ahead and get Kayleigh in here. So, Kayli, what was your experience growing up in the kind of Mormon context, but also in your family's context?

Margi Dehlin [00:22:26] So I grew up on that same 80 acres that my mom grew up on, and we're focusing on the Hinckley, but I mostly, I think, would have identified with my Smith side, which was the land that I grew up on. So I think we've been calling it the Compound.

John Dehlin [00:22:42] But she's not related to Joseph Smith, I'm guessing. There's a lot.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:45] Not that I know of. Maybe somewhere.

Kayli Hinckley [00:22:46] Who knows?

Margi Dehlin [00:22:48] It was always called the Mormon Holler by, like, everyone at school because we're in a very, I would say, Baptist area. And so it was a thing to be Mormon. So, anyway, I grew up on the. The same land that she grew up on, you know, riding four wheelers, being out. Like, if the sun's up, I'm out in the woods. I'm playing in my own playhouse. I'm building fires, things like that. So I would say that A little bit different, but probably more like my mom grew up more so than my dad. Very one with nature and that kind of thing and. But still Mormonism being if you're not outside playing in the woods, you're at church. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:30] Wow.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:31] So. But I would say that I identified more with, like. I would have been happy to say that, like, church was. I was and still am very attached to places. And the church building that I grew up in was like a second home for me. Like my dad was saying, the first couple years of my life, we were in a couple different states, but we always came home on the weekends. So I lived in several different houses, but on Saturday and Sunday, I was at my. The home that I grew up in, my childhood home, but also church. Like, Sunday was church day. And that's what. We were there for three hours every Sunday. And then as soon as that was over, we would head back to whatever state or house we were in. So it was central to my childhood. Not only church, but this church building, which I think. I don't know is a very big part for me. Just areas where I feel safe. And because we were moving around so much, I still. I felt safe, of course, with my family, but the church building, just the physical building was so important to me growing up.

Religious Perfectionism and Modesty Pressures

John Dehlin [00:24:39] You mentioned in your outline having kind of scrupulosity or perfection, religiously perfectionistic thoughts and not differently real concerns about modesty, clothing from a very young age. Do you want to talk about those early recollections of religious shame and guilt?

Margi Dehlin [00:25:02] Yeah, I think the first. The first ones that come to mind are when I was really little, and I would have just, like, a picture of something in my head, whether it be something inappropriate or not, just feeling this weight on my shoulders to have to tell somebody. So it could be, you know, picturing or seeing something online, like somebody naked or something, and. Or just picturing somebody that I know. And I would have to go immediately to my mom once I had this thought and tell her, and only then would I feel, like, this weight off of my shoulders. So that's like the first, like, memory that I have of having, like, a really guilty conscience that kind of grew. I had. I was kind of teaching myself that I have to tell somebody else about these thoughts in order to feel like, okay, and to have this weight off my shoulder. So from there, I think it went to not thinking about other people, but thinking about my own body and not liking that. Like, it was the same negative connotation that I had with others that I had to myself. So not looking in the mirror when I would change and especially when buying clothes. It was a garment mindset from the time that I was kindergarten. Kindergarten for. For sure.

John Dehlin [00:26:13] So yeah, that I'm just blown away by that. But explain to our never Mormons what a garment mindset would mean, especially to a Mormon five year old.

Margi Dehlin [00:26:21] Little. Well, watching my. I mean, I would see my mom and dad, you know, walking through the house in their garments. Just the knee length, the covered shoulders. With your clothes. Yeah, Sleeves.

John Dehlin [00:26:34] Women.

Margi Dehlin [00:26:34] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Seeing him never without a shirt, like except for being in the pool or something, it was always covered shoulders and bathing suits especially. I had cousins that I grew up with in the Mormon holler, all similar ages. And I would always have my mama be like, I wish you would dress more like, like your cousins, you know, cute and girly. And I would just be like, no, mama. Like I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be in garments at some point, so I might as well start dressing like it now.

John Dehlin [00:27:02] Now, was she active Mormon?

Kayli Hinckley [00:27:04] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:27:04] Okay. But she.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:06] I had two little centers of Mormonism in my life, so the Hinckley center and then the Smith center, both equally. Equally orthodox. Equally. Held very high expectations.

John Dehlin [00:27:17] But you weren't going to wear a bikini.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:19] No, no.

John Dehlin [00:27:20] Except when you did.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:22] Except for the one time, which again, I was really little, probably six or five or six. Went to a friend's house and didn't have a bathing suit. Was me, my cousin. And then my friend, and the friend was handing out bathing suits and the only one that fit me was a bikini. And I remember saying, no, like I'm not, I'm not going to wear that. And the mom came in and was like, here. No one's here, Kaylee. No, there's no men here. You can, you can wear this. I put it on and I remember, I remember viscerally feeling like I wanted to peel my skin off. Like it was that disgusted with myself. And I think I remember getting in the pool for like a second and then getting back out because her dad had shown up and then immediately getting picked up and telling my mom that I had worn a bikini. And. And it was just her trying to be like, we don't wear bikinis, Kaylee. But in my mind it was shame on you. You know you're not supposed to do that. And the guilt was already so heavy on me, on me that I was like, you're right. Like I knew that was wrong and I still did it. And that's why I feel so bad. And that's why I had to come home and tell you. But that's just me, you know, five, six years old, already internalizing all of this. I know better and I'm not going to screw up again. And I did not screw up again. I never wore a bikini my entire childhood.

John Dehlin [00:28:41] Oh, wow. After that point, you mentioned your outline teachings around the second coming being really significant kind of in your early adolescence. Do you want to talk about that?

Margi Dehlin [00:28:51] Yeah. I would get really excited. Of course, church is three hours at that point still, and it's a long, boring Sunday for the most part. But I would always get so excited when we would talk about the second coming in the millennium, topics like that. And I remember. I remember growing up having these lessons and always being very positive that when Jesus comes again, he. An angel could knock on your bathroom door. You could be in the shower and an angel would knock on your bathroom door and be like, hey, come on, Jesus is here. Let's go. And it would be such a happy time. Of course, I'm, however, old, 6, 7, 8 in these classes with a teacher that knows, you know, the same amount that I know, basically just telling a child whatever a child needs to be told to. To be excited about church and things like that. But I am black and white like my dad. And so whenever I learned something, even If I was 8 or however old, that is what I expected the truth to be. So I. I don't remember how I found out. I think maybe I was listening to an adult conversation that I shouldn't have been listening to. But I remember hearing my aunts and uncles and mom and dad talking about the second coming and how there would be war and disease and all these things that are found in the scriptures and just feeling like, number one, embarrassed. But number two, that I had been lied to. And I remember going to my older cousin and saying, did you know about all of this? That they've been lying to us at church?

John Dehlin [00:30:23] Wait, how are they lying? Just, they didn't paint it as violent as it actually was.

Margi Dehlin [00:30:27] Well, that was a lie to me to say that an angel could just knock on your door and tell you to, come on, Jesus is here. But that is not what's going on. Going to have. That is according.

John Dehlin [00:30:34] What. What. What was the Mormon version of second coming?

Margi Dehlin [00:30:38] I mean, at that point, I didn't know. But. But the, the wars and the famine and the death and that even. Even if you do think you're a. Okay, even if you are like a faithful member, you still might not survive it.

Nathan Hinckley [00:30:51] So I. I think what she is referring to. There was a time in this Mormon holler that she. First of all, do you know what a holler is?

John Dehlin [00:31:00] I mean, tell our audience. My sister lives in Kentucky, so it's

Nathan Hinckley [00:31:04] just like, I don't know, deep woods,

Margi Dehlin [00:31:07] one gravel road in one gravel road.

Nathan Hinckley [00:31:09] But anyway, so there was multiple families, all Mormon. And so we. We would have family home evenings together. And one of the books that we started basing our family home evenings on was As a Thief in the Night. It's all about the. The prophecies of the. In last days and how they'll be. There'll be wars and the cities will be. It's. It's the. It's very problematic. Visions of glory. It's bas. It's basically that.

John Dehlin [00:31:44] Got it, got it.

Nathan Hinckley [00:31:44] It's. It's a companion to visions of glory.

John Dehlin [00:31:46] Okay.

Nathan Hinckley [00:31:48] Yeah, yeah, it's very problematic.

John Dehlin [00:31:50] I mean, in the Book of Mormon, when Jesus comes the first time, like, cities are burned, like volcanoes erupt. Just entire civilizations, men, women, children are all slaughtered. When Jesus comes the first time. And it's, you know, it's. It's part two when he comes again in Mormonism. Fire and torture and, you know, floods and famine. It's horrible. It's. Yeah. I remember one once, my kids coming home with like a worksheet. You remember that, Margi? Of like, all the ways people were going to die in the Second Coming? It was like hail and fire and poison and locusts and scorpions and snakes. And it's. Anyway, we belabored the point.

Nathan Hinckley [00:32:33] So one thing that Kaylee said a second ago, I remember driving down the road with her and I don't know what age, but I was going to come clean on Santa, and I said, do you want me to tell you the truth? And she said, yeah. I said, you know, told her the truth. And then you remember what you said after that?

Margi Dehlin [00:32:58] I said, what about the Tooth Fairy?

Nathan Hinckley [00:33:00] And then she says the Easter Bunny, too. So, I mean, you know, if we told her, if we taught her something, she believed it.

Kayli Hinckley [00:33:10] Yeah. How old were you when you were asking that?

Margi Dehlin [00:33:13] I would have remembered if I had written this down. I feel like it was third grade, fourth grade maybe.

John Dehlin [00:33:20] So.

Kayli Hinckley [00:33:20] Quite young. Yeah. That's a young time.

Nathan Hinckley [00:33:22] But I remember telling her, now, all of these things are not real, but all of the church things are, you know, like Joseph Smith and Jesus and God and, you know, I don't know. I've tried to come comfort her in that because her heart was broken.

Margi Dehlin [00:33:40] Well, because my first Instinct was to say, well, we can't see Santa, but I still was supposed to believe him in him. I can't see Jesus, but am I still supposed to believe in him too? And he was immediately like, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, that's not a connection you're supposed to make. Yes, we still believe in Jesus. Of course I know we're lying to you about this, but we're not lying to you about that. Which is very hard for, for me, especially when I'm still like, it would have been not long after that first, the Second coming thing not being a, a nice time. So it was just another thing that I was like, why are I like, I understand it's not pretty to tell a child that. But at the same time I trusted you all. I trusted. I'm sitting in these classes trusting what you're telling me. At what, at some point you have to tell me that you're lying. And I don't know, I just, I did not like that. I didn't like that.

Kayli Hinckley [00:34:31] So can I ask you a follow up about that? Just explore your brain at that time, if you can remember. So for you was the issue more around truth? Like you that was a lie. What you said actually was not true. Was it more about that? Like, was there part of you also that was like, well, now I'm scared. Like, that's terrifying. And so like, did it reinforce perfectionism? Like this idea of like, oh wait, there will be even righteous people? Can righteous people actually die during that too? Do you remember?

Margi Dehlin [00:35:08] I remember, I remember wanting to be prepared because our family had all of the food storage and things like that. So I think my focus was like, if this is actually going to happen and maybe soon. That was always a thing for me. Like, what's the point in going to school? What's the point in thinking I'm getting married if the second coming is now and soon. Yeah. And if it is imminent, shouldn't I be preparing just like you? Okay, I'm eight years old, but I'm still going to be affected in the same way you are. So it was just that I remember then getting on my little phone and searching, I think probably the scripture in revelation about, okay, so what is actually going to happen? I want to know now what you all weren't telling me. And I remember getting with my cousin and looking it up and okay, so it is going to be scary. It is going to be dangerous. And no, I, I'm not guaranteed to make it as a. However old I was, I think that's

John Dehlin [00:36:06] part of the function of the second coming teaching. It's like Santa in that you better be good or else. So talk about. You mentioned your outline. When you're around 11, you learned the word feminist for the first time. Was it in a young women's context?

Margi Dehlin [00:36:21] It would have been, yes. It would have been some of my first days in mutual activity days. Yeah, yeah. It was either my first days in mutual or one of my last days in activity days. I think it was young women's. Maybe we had, we have, in our ward, we have people moving in and out, but there was a. For the medical school that's nearby. And so there was a girl who was a little bit older than me, maybe 16 at that point who was talking about being a feminist in our mutual. We were making cookies or something like it wasn't like we were having a conversation about feminism. But the teacher was quick to be like, we are not feminist. We do not, we do not even talk about that word. And I remember watching her reaction, the girl that had said she was a feminist and she was very much like red faced, embarrassed, and I think she might have like said something back or whatever. But at that point I was like, okay, we don't use that word. We do not identify with that word. I don't even know if I knew what it was at that point, but I just remember being like, okay, I don't identify with that word. I don't even say that word because I'm not going to get yelled at in the church, especially not in the church. I'm not going to get yelled at.

John Dehlin [00:37:37] And looking back, you mentioned that in your outline. Why?

Margi Dehlin [00:37:41] Because it was reinforcing in my mind that. Well, it's obviously it was becoming a, a thing and it was becoming a cool thing to be. That's why the girl was telling everyone I'm a feminist. And so the teacher specifically, I think was reinforcing that in our brains. Even if you don't know what this word means, it's a bad word. And if you hear people saying they're a feminist, you, you don't identify with those people. And it just immediately like divided our, our class. Not even divided. It, it just singled out this girl.

John Dehlin [00:38:17] Kind of shamed her.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:18] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:19] Literally, as I understand it, the kind of pure definition of feminism is the belief that men and women should be treated.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:24] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:38:25] Equally.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:26] It probably would have been around. I'm not sure I remember at that time there was talk about women receiving the priesthood and women don't need the priesthood. And so it might have also been a way for her to not start that. The teacher to not start that conversation in the class again. I was probably. I was too little to really know what was going on, but I do know that was a thing at the time, so I don't know.

Discovering the CES Letter at Age Twelve

John Dehlin [00:38:48] So you mentioned your outline discovering the CES letter at age 12.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:52] Yes. Yeah, that did happen.

John Dehlin [00:38:53] Do you want to talk about that?

Kayli Hinckley [00:38:54] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:55] So I've always been a reader. I've been online. I think when I was in third grade, I had a flip phone. And then from that time, maybe the next year, I had, like, an actual iPhone and I had a Facebook and I had all these things. I started a book blog, and I had an Instagram with, like 6,000 followers when I was, like, 12 and 13 years old. Yes. I knew my way around the Internet, all of that to say. And so I think I was around 12 when I would have seen, like, an article. And I can't remember it now, but it was somebody writing an article about how the CES letter ruined my faith or something like that. And I had just read, like, the article title, and I put it down, and I went to my mom. Actually, it might have been a few days later, because I would have been terrified of that. But however long it took me to finally go to my mom and say, I just saw this article title and I'm wondering what the CES letter is. And she was like, I don't know. I don't know what you're talking about. And I think I probably told her what the article title was. And she picked up on the fact that it was anti pretty quickly and shut it down immediately. So much so that he never heard, he never caught wind of it. She was immediately like, we don't. We don't read anti blogs, anti literature, anything anti Mormon. We don't. We don't touch. And that was my first glimpse into. Okay, CES letter. Don't touch anything remotely anti. Don't touch, don't read, don't see.

John Dehlin [00:40:28] No bikinis, no feminism. No anti Mormon CES letter.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:32] No CES letter.

Kayli Hinckley [00:40:33] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:40:34] And no dating till 16.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:35] No dating till 16.

John Dehlin [00:40:37] So. So, yeah, you. You mentioned. And this is just directly from your outline, feeling. Com. Completely sexually cut off and hating your body. So let's just talk going into kind of adolescence.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:53] What.

John Dehlin [00:40:54] Why are you mentioning that as important in your journey?

Margi Dehlin [00:40:58] Because I. So I always had the garment mindset. There was a point when we were buying clothes for school, and my mom basically said, you're a kid. It's okay to Dress like a kid. It's okay to dress like your cousins. You can be girly. You can. But I still. And. And I think I was like, okay at that point. And I wore a little bit shorter shorts or maybe wore a tank top from time to time. Still no bikinis. But it was just like when I would play basketball, because I was a basketball player, I would wear the knee pads because I just. I didn't like my legs. I didn't want to people. Like, I was fine playing basketball, but I have anxiety. But for some reason when I would play basketball, it would just go away. But for some reason, like the thought of people seeing my legs just. And it was a tank top. Actually our uniforms were tank tops, which I didn't have a problem with. But my legs, for some reason, I just have always. I don't know, just had a. They're supposed to be covered to the knees. And so there's. There's something wrong with showing them. And that just has always, I guess, internalized in not liking my body. Not really seeing the point. I just have a body to cover it up. So what? Like, it was just more so another thing I had to worry about, like, because my anxiety was so bad from elementary into high school, it was just another thing that I had to worry about, and I already had a lot of that.

John Dehlin [00:42:26] So, I mean, it seems like many people like religion or churches because they help keep people who otherwise wouldn't stay in line or behave in appropriate ways. It keeps them focused and knowing what's right and trying to do what's right. But that can get really difficult for someone who's got scrupulosity, who's highly anxious, highly compliant and perfectionistic. What can be a good set of guidelines for healthy, normal adolescent upbringing can become toxic for the right type of scrupulous, perfectionistic personality. Is that right?

Margi Dehlin [00:43:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:09] Is that how it was for you?

Margi Dehlin [00:43:10] Yes. Especially when I was growing up with my two cousins who are the same age as me, and I saw them dating and they were getting the guys and they were even like, young, young. I was still seeing this. Okay, so the short shorts and the bikinis equals boy attention from boys, which I didn't want because I knew I had to wait until I was 16. Anyway, so it was. I think I write that I used it as a shield. Like it. It was. It protected me, but at the same time, it was. It was also putting up a shield socially where I didn't know how to speak to boys. I didn't know how I was supposed to Interact in a way that was, we can be friends or. I didn't ever want to give off the vibe that I was looking for more. I remember getting chocolates from a boy on Valentine's Day one year when I was in middle school or something. And I went to the bathroom and I threw up because I had made him think that I was interested in him. And that was. I didn't wear the shorts. I didn't wear the bikinis. I thought I was doing the right thing here. Everyone knows I can't date till I'm 16, but yet here I'm getting a box of chocolates with, will you date me? Yes or no? And I was like, I've done everything. I've done everything right, yet I'm still having to deal with this, which.

Kayli Hinckley [00:44:24] And in some ways, like, it sounds like you're thinking it's your fault. Yeah. Like, you did all the things, but still, I got the chocolates. What can I do?

John Dehlin [00:44:33] Like, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:33] Which sounds terrible now. Like, he was just being. He was just being kind.

Kayli Hinckley [00:44:37] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:37] And not that the boys were crazy for me. Like, not anything like that. I just. I didn't want attention. I didn't want people to look at me.

Kayli Hinckley [00:44:46] Yeah. I'm hearing the fear.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:48] So why is it not working? It's supposed to work.

John Dehlin [00:44:51] Yeah. Because I guess if everything's been highly sexualized, in other words, shoulders. Bare shoulders can be sexual. Bare knees can be sexual. A movie can be sexual. A boy showing interest is just inherently sexual. It kind of adds this potential valence or charge to everything that's almost inappropriate for kids and teenagers because it's basically putting. It's sexualizing everything for kids whose minds necessarily shouldn't be on sex all the time. And weirdly, bizarrely, the church doesn't want the kids thinking about sex all the time. But by sexualizing clothes and food and drink and programs, it probably makes it worse. Is that right?

Margi Dehlin [00:45:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:40] Yeah.

Nathan Hinckley [00:45:40] Sort of backfires. So along this same time, I went into the bishopric when she was really young, and I was in the bishopric for, like, 10 years and before I was called to be bishop. So a lot of this stuff, as I hear her say it, I. I'm sort of hearing it kind of for the first time, sadly to say. Like, I. I didn't pick up on a lot of this stuff. I went to church before. The family I stayed after. I, you know, was constantly doing that. Those kinds of things. So, yeah, a lot of that. I mean, we were a tight family, and we were always together and traveling, you know, and on the weekends and coming back. But all that to say, yeah, the church calling definitely didn't help in that aspect of being able to really understand some things that. And, you know, maybe my wife. Maybe it was a little bit more appropriate on some things. I don't know. But, yeah, that's. That's what I was doing during that time is meeting with the families of the ward and worrying about everyone else.

John Dehlin [00:46:53] How does it make you feel to hear her talk about how she was conceptualizing the church standards now that you're hearing it?

Nathan Hinckley [00:47:00] Yeah, I mean, I. I have seen it with my wife as well. I mean, the. I've seen the same things that she's saying with the way that she looked at her body and the shame and the guilt and all of this. She. She got it. Honestly, you know, that's. We've been out of the church now for two years, and we're still working through a lot of those things.

John Dehlin [00:47:26] So hearing Kaylee talk about these things makes you feel what.

Nathan Hinckley [00:47:31] It makes me feel like, for one, I dropped the ball when I was busy doing other things, when I wish I would have been having to ride with my family to church instead of, you know, so, yeah, I feel a bit of responsibility there.

John Dehlin [00:47:50] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:47:51] But I didn't. I didn't vocalize it to anyone and wouldn't have vocalized it, Tim, and probably wouldn't have even understood it myself that that's what was happening. So there's no ball being dropped. There's just really high standards that I was set on meeting and it was not.

Nathan Hinckley [00:48:08] But as far as the, like, coming across the CES letter, I mean, we would have. We would have. Like you said, we would have shut that down. Don't look at that. I had. I didn't know what it was. There was one time when I was a teenager that my dad had a friend had brought over the God Makers video, and he had heard about it and he says, okay, she was interested in the church. And so we sat down and watched it together. And that. Other than that, that was like the one time I was like, what is this stuff? You know, so we. We just. We were told not to look at the anti stuff. And I never did. You know, I did not seek any of that out. I. So, yeah, she's absolutely right. If she would have told my wife, you know, what is this? Whatever we would have said, what are you doing? Don't look there. That's not any. You know, it's. It's just anti. It's just lies.

Kayli Hinckley [00:49:14] I have A little bit of a follow up question because in relationship to your evaluative self, it sounds like like you're evaluating all the time your adherence to modesty or different things. I think the church can sometimes have mixed messages here for women growing up, especially around, like, covering up your body, but also messages around being attractive. So I guess I'm curious, did you have any type of scrupulousness in your evaluation with like, beauty or was it more around just adherence to the rules?

Margi Dehlin [00:49:52] I don't think. I think it was the rules. I think because I had so my two cousins, one is older and one is younger. So I was kind of watching my older cousin, I don't know, like she was, you know, into makeup way before. And I remember getting makeup for Christmas one year finally when I was 14, way older than she was when she kind of started doing the girly things. And not like I was excited, but also feeling like, okay, so I wear makeup now, which makes me basically a woman, which means I have to start doing woman things, which means I have to start preparing to be a mother, which was what we were doing when I went from activity days to young women's. I went from writing little songs and writing little raps that we would perform for each other in activity days and having so much fun to having days where we would learn to bake spaghetti and we would do like spa days where we would pamper each other. But I didn't like those kinds of things. So it just was. It was telling me, you should like to do each other's makeup. Oh, the nails. We would paint each other's nails, but I bit my nails to like the point where they would bleed. So I would come in from my anxiety. So I would come in on Wednesday night for my nails to be painted, to be girly, to be, you know, the woman that I'm supposed to be. And there would be nothing to paint.

Kayli Hinckley [00:51:30] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:31] And that was like, okay.

Kayli Hinckley [00:51:34] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:35] I'm not like these other girls who were pretty and cute and have the nails and the makeup and I'm supposed to. So I need to. I need to figure out what's wrong there.

Kayli Hinckley [00:51:45] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:46] So I didn't so much, like get that from the church, I don't think. But just seeing the other girls that I was with prioritized that and my cousins and.

Kayli Hinckley [00:51:58] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:59] And having that from my, my grandparents or my grandma saying, dress more like them and be more like them.

Kayli Hinckley [00:52:04] Yeah. Just because we have it culturally too. Of course, not just in. Okay, so my next question is just, I'm really feeling like your. Your internal self, your inner self being this place that's very. It's like extreme and, and kind of aggressive to you as you're living and also, like, lonely, like it's going on inside and no one really, it seems like, knows about it on the outside. Right. And so my question is just this seriousness that you've had, like, since you've been young, like just a little girl. Do you feel like you had places where you didn't feel that, where you were able to, like, just be free of that for a minute and just feel joy or. Yeah, just be young and. And have a sense of freedom. Did you have a break from this incessant, aggressive part of you to be perfect at all times?

Books, Escape, and Childhood Exhaustion

Margi Dehlin [00:53:06] So I love to read. I loved, loved, loved, loved to read. So much so that it became like I had a huge. He built me a bookshelf, a huge collection of books. And it's the cliche of disappearing into. But I did, like, it was so, so realistic for me, these stories, these people, these characters, and just loving to read. So that. On that note, though, you sometimes ask, like, how were you perceived as a child? And I just, this isn't. This isn't a happy thing. But I was always drama queen or smile more or which isn't. I don't think that's normal for, For a Mormon, For a Mormon girl. Like, they're happy, they're. They're. I'm a Mormon girl and I wear my hair in curls and that type of thing. And. And I just never could, like, how are you today, Kaylee? Tired. They hated that response, but it was always a response I gave because I was always so tired and I looking. I only know why I say that, why I said that now, but it's because of all of the restrictions and the rules and the things that I didn't know that were weighing down on me and I could never figure out why that was the word that came out of my mouth. I was also a brat a lot, which just. I don't know, Like, I was a happy kid. I loved my childhood. I loved. I loved the Mormon Holler and I loved my family and I loved church. But I just. There was a mark I was missing time and time again because I was. I had. I had the Mormon girls in Utah that I was trying to live up to on social media, and I had my cousins who were girly and played sports better than me or cheered or, you know, something that's very, like, peppy. And I just wasn't I wasn't peppy. I wasn't.

Kayli Hinckley [00:55:04] Yes. I so get the tired and the brat thing, to me just totally makes sense for what happens with an overwhelmed child. Like an overwhelmed child is going to act that way. And how could you not be with. It sounds like all that you were taking in at that time. Yeah, which.

Margi Dehlin [00:55:25] And I probably was a lot of the time. But it was also not only this church side, but this school side because I had to have A's. And I remember making a 93 on a test and he came in and talked to my teacher and was like, kaylee doesn't make. Or maybe it's a 92. It was a B. He was like, kaylee doesn't make B's. She makes A's. And I made A's. Like, I. If I was missing the mark here, I was not going to miss the mark here. So on top of all of the church things and the needing to do personal progress and the needing to go to church for three hours and all the things and basketball, I had to go to basketball. I had to do well in basketball. I also had to study and I had to do the homework and I had to do well. I couldn't just be mediocre.

John Dehlin [00:56:13] When Margi was asking that question, both Margi and you started to get emotional. And it was around the question of seriousness. And I think a companion to that was just the idea of having a chance to be a girl or a teenager versus kind of a mini adult. And the religion kind of reinforces the seriousness. Do you have anything you want to share about what was coming up for you when you were starting to, you know, tear up a little bit?

Margi Dehlin [00:56:37] I was remembering talking to my mom about. About saying how tired I was all the time. And. And we put me on medicine. We did. We did all these things. And it's like depression medication for the anxiety. Yeah. And. And I remember not, like my dad said last night, he's not a doctor guy. Like, we don't do medicine because there's meaning.

John Dehlin [00:56:58] He doesn't like to go to doctors.

Margi Dehlin [00:56:59] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's also not a doctor. But.

Nathan Hinckley [00:57:02] Yeah, but I would, But I would have at that time, I would have said, pull yourself your boots up by your whatever. Bootstraps. Get yourself like, you don't need medication. Like, I was black and white and I don't need this and I'm fine. You can, you know, so gospel. Yeah, the.

John Dehlin [00:57:21] The gospel would be enough to make you happy if you live in her.

Nathan Hinckley [00:57:24] Yeah. You need a blessing. Get A blessing or something. But, you know, that's. I was that way.

Kayli Hinckley [00:57:30] Yeah. And it. It's also reinforcing, like, this idea of, well, it couldn't possibly be that these expectations are just, you know, far beyond a child's reach. But it has to be something with you. Let's medicate you. Let's do something with you. Because you're. You're not able to kind of show up with a happy face as you're trying to be this perfect human in all ways when you're, like, 8 years old.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:58] Yeah. Yeah. And it just brings to mind the fact that I. Because of that. Because I was so focused on the fact that I didn't smile, there was a stretch of probably six years where I couldn't figure out how to smile in pictures. Because I would smile and then I would be like, that's not authentic. That's not. I. I'd rather be frowning right now. So the fact that I'm trying to smile for a picture, I was so in my head, like, over every little thing. But I specifically remember a stretch of several years where I would not want to be photographed or I would be in a picture. I'd be forced into a picture because Kaylee's being a bride again. And I would try to smile, and it wouldn't reach my eyes. And I would look back at the picture and be like, yep, I'm not happy. And it wasn't that. Like, I think the gospel did make me happy, and I think that I loved my childhood and I loved my family, but there was still just this inner me that was like, why am I not. If all of these things, why is it not equaling me expressing myself as happy, powerful?

Encounters with Church Leadership

John Dehlin [00:59:06] You mentioned a story or talk about Elder Gong. Do you want to tell that story?

Margi Dehlin [00:59:11] Yeah. And that would have been high school, but Elder Grahn came for a state conference.

John Dehlin [00:59:18] So for those who don't know, he's one of the Mormon apostles, he's one of the 12, quorum of the 12.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:25] And we listened to a talk that he gave, and we were also excited. And the next day in seminary, of course, it's 6am the teacher comes in and is like, I have something to tell you all. And I guess a story was circulating the stake that a little boy had run up to him after his talk, after conference had closed, and the little boy ran up to him and said, so do you all, like, actually talk to Jesus? Do you. Does the prophet actually talk to Jesus? And he bent down and held his hand and said, would it have been Monson at that time probably basically saying he's best friends with Jesus. Which the kid asked a question, do they see Jesus? And the response was he's best friends with Jesus. So she's telling us, I'm 15, 16, she's telling us this to say. So there's your answer. And I'm sitting there thinking, that's my answer.

John Dehlin [01:00:35] Yeah. There's this weird thing in Mormonism where the apostles, we're taught that these apostles in the first presidency are quote, special witnesses of Christ, that they probably have seen Jesus and talked to him and that gives them a lot of power over us. Because then when they come to speak, when they speak at general conference or when they come to visit our stake or our area, then it's as if we're hearing the words of Jesus. Now they've also told in different settings that they don't speak to Jesus and that that's not literal, that they have the same type of prayers that we all do. So the church kind of does this double messaging of wanting us to take every word they say as scripture and to obey. But then, you know. Yeah. And it can put a lot of pressure on us to believe and obey every little thing they say, which might not always be healthy. I don't know.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:33] Yeah. I mean, and he was telling that to a kid and, and was it supposed to circulate like that? No. And I understand. But again, it's me sitting as a student being taught by a teacher that I'm supposed to trust. And she believes that this was an answer. And the answer was yes, the prophet sees and speaks with Jesus and with

Kayli Hinckley [01:01:58] God and his besties.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:00] Yeah. And his best friends. I was like, that's so cool. That's literally. Thank you for telling me that. That's all I needed to hear.

John Dehlin [01:02:08] And you mentioned that. Why that story particularly?

Margi Dehlin [01:02:12] Because it's just again, this like reinforcing of there's nowhere else to go. Like the stakes, like just, just. Yeah, the stakes. And also just Mormonism is true. Like here we have a man telling this child that they speak and talk to God and yeah, it's just, it's just reinforcing me in this little Mormon box of I'm never going to leave, I'm never going to think any differently than I do right now because this is all that I need.

John Dehlin [01:02:48] Yeah. Yeah. You mentioned that maybe some of the non member boys you might have dated may have lost interest in you because they viewed Mormonism as a cult. How, how is the Mormon church viewed generally here in Tennessee or in the south maybe.

Margi Dehlin [01:03:06] That's, that's what I got. We would talk for a couple, A couple days, a couple weeks. And everyone knew.

John Dehlin [01:03:15] Everyone with a boy.

Margi Dehlin [01:03:16] With the. With a boy.

Kayli Hinckley [01:03:17] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:03:17] Everyone knew I was Mormon. So like, it was already a pre. Like if you're. Everyone knew I was Mormon at the get go. So it was kind of them trying to see, okay, how weird is she actually, though. And it always ended within a couple weeks because a pastor or a dad or a mom was like, you cannot make that official because she's in a cult. And because I got the horn thing several times that we have horns and like, and where our church building is, it's like right on the way to school. Like, everyone had to pass it. And so there would be stories about seeing us out at midnight around a fire, which we might have done. Sometimes we did firesides. But yeah, it just spread between these churches that stories like little myths.

John Dehlin [01:04:07] I remember that People believing that Mormons had horns. Yeah, no, I remember that.

Nathan Hinckley [01:04:12] Oh, it's definitely. This went around so backing up a whole lot into. When I was a youngster, this, this girl gave me a, a, A chain and it had a cross on it, a little gold thing or whatever it was as a little boyfriend thing. I take it home. It's like, look at this. My dad said, no, no, no, no, you have to give that back to her. You know, we don't, we don't wear that. We're Mormons, you know, we believe in the living Christ. I took it back and said, I can't, I can't keep this. You know, we're, we don't believe in, in that or whatever. And so I, you know, I just always thought that from then on that all of my friends just thought we were so weird and so different. But I knew I was right and I was, you know, and so that, you know, you asked about what. How was the church viewed out here? There was another time I sang in an acapella group with some buddies, none of them members, and we were singing at a, At a Baptist church. And the preacher at that particular church was preaching before we sang that day, and he preached about, you know, you might think you're going to heaven if you're Mormon, but I'm just here to tell you, you know, that. Well, I stand up in his church in front of his congregation as an invited guest, and I said, I hate to tell you, preacher, but you're dead wrong. And if you ever want to get your facts straight, you give me a call. Like, you know, I think when you're in this part of the country, if you're going to truly live it and believe it, those are the types of things you do. You're giving back your gift to your little girlfriend or you're standing up and calling people out for preaching against you. You know, you're putting your neck out there, you're putting your yourself out there. And that's the way that I was and still am and how that's a

John Dehlin [01:06:20] great story and I relate to it growing up in Houston, Katie area as well. Katie, how did you internalize as an adolescent knowing that your church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints was broadly viewed in, as a cult by kind of the host culture?

Margi Dehlin [01:06:38] I think I didn't get the cult thing until high school. Elementary school was. I would have theological scripture debates with my friends. They would come in with sheets of paper from their Sunday school or from their dad, basically of points to make to Mormons and I would come in with points to make to Baptists and we would, you know, she, they would ask questions and I would say, you know, I don't know the answer to that, but my dad knows, so I'm going to go ask my dad. I would go home, I would ask him, I would write it down, I would come back and so it was, it was, it was. I know I have the truth. I know I have the answers. Let me go ask my dad. Because my dad has all of the answers. And there would be some times where he'd be like, oh, we just don't know. And, and I would, you know, I would just not go back and tell her that that was the answer. And also, just how did I internalize it? I mean, I liked like him being different and.

John Dehlin [01:07:35] Yeah, it doesn't sound like you internalized it as you being inferior or less

Margi Dehlin [01:07:40] than I was there to save them. You don't know who Nephi is. Bless your heart. Like, let me tell you who Nephi is. Like, I don't know. It was. Yeah, it didn't touch me in that way. It touched me in the way of I need to help you out.

John Dehlin [01:07:59] And it's almost like persecution strengthens the culture. Right?

Nathan Hinckley [01:08:03] Yeah. So I had a. Sorry, okay. I had a friend, a non member friend reach out to me probably, you know, 10, 15 years ago or something. And, and he was, and he saw my young family, you know, my, my kids and how happy and everything we were. And he said, I just want what you have. You know, you're doing great. You have A family. And my response to him was, you need the church. Like, I've credited every good thing in my life to the church. So instead of saying, well, you know, I work hard and I have good parents or I have good work ethic or whatever, that was my response to him. Yeah, you know, you need the church. The church has given me everything that I've got.

Kayli Hinckley [01:08:59] Yep, Yep. I was just gonna say really quick, do you feel like growing up, you know, being Mormon in particularly. I'm trying to think, when I was a. So in Ohio, in Florida, for me, like, the differentness thing, I felt like, actually reinforced being like a good Mormon because we heard messages of. Of being a peculiar people of. Yeah. Not of this world. Also. It kind of ties you back to, you know, the Mormon pioneers facing persecution. Like, it kind of leads you back around to this. Like, wow, I'm actually a really righteous Mormon. Like, this is part of the hardcore Mormon experience. Did you guys feel that way that they were those messages or was that just me in Ohio and Florida? Because I do think the church is kind of different in different places, peculiar people. And also, you know, those ties back to the pioneers and then feeling persecution and somehow that making you an even better member.

Nathan Hinckley [01:10:03] I think you're spot on. And I. I would say that I had the same experience, that feeling like every, you know, everyone's always attacking us. I remember this analogy that I used to use. I got it actually from Truman G. Madsen, which I'll probably talk about a little bit later. But he said, if you see boys throwing rocks at a tree, you already know that the tree has fruit on it. They're trying to knock the fruit off. And so I would say all of these attacks at our church, it's because we have the fruit, we have the goodness, we have the truth. And so, yeah, I thought any of that. We're always being persecuted. Everyone's out to get us because we are the only true, true church.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:49] Which I saw, like, totally illustrated when we went to the pageant, the Palmyra pageant, watching, I guess it was Book of Mormon reenactments. And so the stage is in front of you, and then behind you have all of the protesters, air horns, speakers, you know, the picketing. And it was just like, that is the devil. Like, listen to them. Dad would say, listen to them. Like, that is we. We are being persecuted. They don't. They won't let us just sit here and watch our. Our scriptures come to life. That is Satan incarnate. I mean, that is when you see anti Mormon things Those are the kind of people that are putting it out.

John Dehlin [01:11:37] Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Nathan Hinckley [01:11:39] No, that was the type of things we used to do as family vacations. We would go to the. To either Nauvoo or to Kirtland and just do all of. And, you know, see the pageant.

John Dehlin [01:11:51] And these are church history sites where Joseph Smith used to live.

Nathan Hinckley [01:11:55] Yeah, yeah, that's the Sacred Grove. You know, we did all of that stuff as family. And I distinctly remember her calling out like, tell that guy to hush. You know, and one time, a protester. A protester out there. One time she was so upset with what he was saying that I just decided just. I just laid on my horn. You know, it's like as if that's gonna. If anything, I probably drew more attention to him, but that was my best way to, you know, take care of the situation, just drown him out.

Cults, Scientology, and Recognizing Patterns

John Dehlin [01:12:29] So you mentioned in your outline stumbling on the documentary going clear, which is about, you know, Scientology, which many view as a culture. So what's it like to, you know, be in a high demand religion, to be viewed as a cult, to not think of yourself as a cult, but think of yourself as being part of the true church. But then to see a very famous cult documentary about what many perceive to be one of the typical prototypical cults. What was that like?

Margi Dehlin [01:12:57] Well, I now would see that as hands off. Like, I would not have watched that if I had known. Um, but in my mind, it was, this is good. This is not about Mormonism at all. Like, I would avoid anything Mormon in the title because that's. That might be a little. Even if it's true believing I'm gonna avoid. So, yeah, I was infatuated. Obviously, I'm. I. Anything I am kind of interested in, like, I go full in. And so just watching this, I was really interested in these, you know, seemingly a little crazy beliefs. Like, that's how I viewed it. And I get to the end and I'm just like, I can't believe that a human with a brain actually thinks all of these things.

John Dehlin [01:13:45] Xenu, volcanoes, thetans, you know, auditing. Fill in the blank.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:50] There's no way. And then I stopped and I thought of Kolob and I thought of, you know, all these little Mormon teaching. Mormon teaching, all of these little Mormon teachings that I know we teach, but we don't actually teach. And I was like, polygamy? Yeah, all the things. And I was like, so anyway, this Scientology stuff is really weird and just immediate, which I feel like is how my brain has been trained. I Any thought, stop. Anything that could be a little. Lead me down a little bit of a wrong direction thought, stop immediately.

John Dehlin [01:14:26] And I think that ties back to the questions you were asking here, Margi, about self connectedness and self awareness versus sort of being raised to be disconnected. I mean, you're a writer, you're a poet now, but that's. That must. I don't know. I'm curious how you reflect on this sort of childhood and adolescent indoctrination focused on keeping you disconnected from your inner self. Am I framing that right? Is that.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:54] Yeah, I mean, how I. There's no other way for me to see it other than I was under some form of mind control. Because of course, now looking back, but now I can do things that I never. I'm using parts of my brain that I didn't even know that I had or that I did know that I had, but I wasn't allowed to apply to church. Like I was using critical thinking skills in all of these aspects of. Of college and high school and Scientology. But as soon as a little Mormon element came into my mind, it was. That doesn't apply to that. That's not allowed to be used on that. That doesn't need to be used on that because that is untouchable. And that's not anything like these other things.

John Dehlin [01:15:39] Julie's asking if you remember what the protesters, what they were picketing, what they were saying, what the poster said. You remember?

Nathan Hinckley [01:15:45] I remember it was about Joseph Smith, you know, just his wives, probably. Probably the wives.

John Dehlin [01:15:54] I remember there's one, One guy used to go around josephfly.com and there's like a website, and then you go to the website and it would talk about the lies that Joseph Smith told. That might have been.

Nathan Hinckley [01:16:03] So funny story on one of the protesters, I was walking into the temple with my grandma before my mission, and there was a guy dressed up in temple clothes protesting outside in Utah. And she says. She says, I wish you would do this somewhere else. And he stopped protesting and said, excuse me, ma', am, where would you like for me to do it? And she said, how about at the bottom of some ocean?

John Dehlin [01:16:33] That's awesome.

Nathan Hinckley [01:16:34] I don't know. Yeah, some Joseph Smith related, though.

Kayli Hinckley [01:16:37] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:38] All I can remember is red devil pitchforks.

John Dehlin [01:16:41] Like they were dressed.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:43] No, no, no. Like, just. I literally don't even remember. Normally I would read the signs and look, but. But in my head, like, all I remember is like it being dark and they had light. There was some sort of lights back there because, you know, I was watching this performance on this big, cool stage, but behind me are these lights and picketing, screaming people that in my head remembering looking back, it was demonic.

Nathan Hinckley [01:17:10] The Hill Cumorah Pageant is what she's referring to.

John Dehlin [01:17:13] Total off topic. But on topic, like, I'm curious, you know, in the past few years, the church, you know, those hookamore pageants, that was an important part of Mormon church culture for decades and decades and decades. And it was particularly an important way for Mormons outside of Utah to still have it participate in active Mormon culture in a way that's east coast versus kind of west Coast. Do you have any theories on why the church ended the Hill. More pageants and those types of things? Have you been people that attended them and cared about them?

Nathan Hinckley [01:17:48] We took trips with our youth group, you know, our ward growing up. We took youth conference trips. I mean, we. We did all that. I mean, why. Theories on why they're. You know, I would say about the time that the introduction to the Book of Mormon changed from being the principal ancestors to being among the principal ancestors

John Dehlin [01:18:14] in response to the realization by DNA evidence that Native Americans weren't Hebrews or Israelis, but instead were Asiatic. That contradicts the core Book of Mormon narrative. So you think that.

Nathan Hinckley [01:18:26] I think that's a good chance that it had something to do with it.

John Dehlin [01:18:32] So it's basically. It talked a lot about Native Americans. It told the story of the Book of Mormon, which is Jews building boats and sailing to America 600 years before Christ.

Nathan Hinckley [01:18:44] And then the other thing.

John Dehlin [01:18:46] And that's. Yeah, science doesn't bear that.

Nathan Hinckley [01:18:47] Right. And science doesn't. The other thing is, they're literally on the hill. Kamora.

John Dehlin [01:18:54] That's right.

Nathan Hinckley [01:18:55] And so you start looking at all these swords and, and shields and. And you. You're starting.

John Dehlin [01:19:02] Why are you laughing?

Kayli Hinckley [01:19:03] I've been to it.

Nathan Hinckley [01:19:04] Yeah. So you're starting to think, well, why can't we find some of this? You know, and you dig a little bit. You dig a little bit and you find out, well, it's a clean hill as it's, you know, there's. There are. There's. There's nothing there.

John Dehlin [01:19:17] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:19:18] And I have no theories besides, I remember how many protesters there were, and there were a lot of, like, filled the road. The road was closed off. There were cops closing. Like, there were a lot of protesters. Also the fact that they're dressing up like, they kind of have to pick, like, who are you dressing up as and what's the hair color? And like, they kind of have to put a fine point on who do we think that these characters are. And what did they look like? I don't think they were like, I don't really know if they were picking certain skin colored actors or. But they kind of have to make a decision at that point and just cutting it out entirely.

Kayli Hinckley [01:19:53] Such a good point.

Margi Dehlin [01:19:54] Cutting it out and such a good point just makes it easy to gloss over the fact that we don't know.

John Dehlin [01:20:00] Yeah.

Nathan Hinckley [01:20:00] So, I mean, the church has done that across the board and, you know, we might be jumping ahead a little bit, but we used to know stuff. We knew where these things took place and we knew who they were and.

John Dehlin [01:20:13] And we knew that Native Americans had dark skin because God cursed their ancestors for wickedness. And so in the Hill Cumorah pageant, you would have darker skinned actors play the wicked Lamanites because that's exactly what the Book of Mormon taught. But that's also super racist. And in 2020, that doesn't play like it did in. In 1970. Right. Is that right? Is that what you're saying?

Margi Dehlin [01:20:42] Yep. So just do away with it. Get rid of the whole thing.

Nathan Hinckley [01:20:45] Yeah. The less that we claim to know. But yeah, probably jumping ahead a little bit.

John Dehlin [01:20:50] No, no, but I mean, I. I didn't want to come back to it and.

Nathan Hinckley [01:20:53] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:20:54] It is weird to see the church over the decades peeling off elements of distinctive Mormon culture because that's the type of stuff. Family devotion. Mormon family devotion was often built upon roadshows, dance festivals, you know, youth conferences, hill cumor pageants. Am I wrong?

Nathan Hinckley [01:21:13] That's. That was. That described our time as youth and growing up and you know, Even just what, 10 years ago? Probably.

John Dehlin [01:21:22] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:22] Yep. So as I'm growing up, we're losing. I mean, we didn't have sports. We didn't. I mean, we.

John Dehlin [01:21:26] Church.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:27] Yeah. We didn't have. I mean, we had dances. We had dances every so often, but, you know, they take away the pageant. They take just. It's boring. I remember hearing them talk back in our day. It's like, it was fun. It sounded fun. Like, I would like to go play softball with these people that I live an hour and a half from. Like, I would like to connect with more than just having to find a guy to dance with for this three minute dance. Like, I didn't enjoy that. I would have enjoyed these other things didn't happen.

Patriarchal Blessing and Growing Doubts

John Dehlin [01:21:56] Yeah. Connecting to this discussion about cults and Scientology and disconnection from yourself. You mentioned in your outline learning something in your patriarchal blessing that made you feel relief. Do you want to talk about that.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:11] Yes. So a patriarchal blessing was one of the things that I. I was. Felt so excited about because it was a stepping stone. Like, okay, I was baptized. And there's. And I don't think it wasn't talked about very much, at least for me growing up. And when I found out it was a thing, I was like, okay, so what age? When am I supposed to get that? And they're like, oh, just whenever you feel ready. Okay, I'm ready, like now. So, you know, I think they make you wait a certain amount of time. You have to pray, and then you have to send an email and you have to wait. And I did all the things very quickly. And we show up and I'm sitting here thinking, like. Cause I think we had talked about yours and mom's maybe, and I'm about to literally find out my future. Like, this guy's going to tell me exactly what's about to happen. And so I'm nervous a little bit, but excited also, because up until that point, I think the age change had happened for the missionaries. The female missionaries could. Could go earlier now from 21 to 19. And so I was kind of like, okay, like, I'm. I think I was 14. Like, I need to start making plans.

Nathan Hinckley [01:23:23] And.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:24] But at the same time, I was like, that's terrifying. Like, I could walk in here and he could tell me to go on a mission, and I have to go on a mission. And so as we got closer and closer, I was just so scared, like. Like there had been a moment where I was like, I'm gonna go on a mission. But then as we got closer and closer to actually finding out whether I was going on a mission or not, where I was like, I don't think. I don't know if that's for me, and sitting down and getting my two and a half page patriarchal blessing. It talked about being a mother, finding a husband, and being a mother. A couple times in the two and a half pages, no mention of mission, which I was so relieved about. But at the same time, I was like, okay. He says, I'm going to get my pick of the pick of the boys. That's how he. How he said it. I remember mom was so relieved because it basically says, you're going to basically pick from a pool of eligible men. I was like, okay, yeah, okay, yeah, I'm, you know, coming onto the 16 age.

Kayli Hinckley [01:24:26] Like, I.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:27] Okay. And yeah, no mission.

Kayli Hinckley [01:24:31] That.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:31] That was my ticket out.

John Dehlin [01:24:34] And you felt a relief.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:35] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:24:35] Because you.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:37] I don't know, it just I mean, I've always loved listening to his mission stories, but that's a long time, like. And. And even thinking that made me feel like God would expect me to. You know, God would expect me to do this, but if I could just get married, like, then I. That's also my out. But. But the fact that he did not tell me to go on a mission in my patriarchal blessing made it easy. Was a weight lifted off my shoulders. They weren't going to push because it talks about getting married, and so I don't have to. And they wouldn't have pushed because I'm a girl and I don't, you know, it's not expected of the girls.

John Dehlin [01:25:14] But I guess, you know, you mentioned the teachings about the second coming and feeling lied to. You mentioned the bikinis and body shame. You mentioned stumbling on the CES letter and the Scientology thing. That made you wonder whether you were in a cult. For a brief moment. I wonder if there was a parallel process going on for you where you were starting to question the church a little bit and whether there was any sense of relief because maybe there's a part of you that didn't want to go sell the church or didn't feel confident selling the church to other people. I don't want to impose that on your narrative. I'm just wondering whether those. Those data points are starting to form a line in terms of the trajectory of your faith commitment.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:00] Well, the patriarchal blessing was when I was 14, which would have been before most of that. I don't think so at all. I think it was not wanting to leave. I mean, I've been in this Mormon hall or surrounded by family my entire. I did not want to leave that, and I didn't want to leave my mom. And, yeah, I don't think there was any part of me that I never had a shelf. I didn't know we were allowed to have shelves. So if there was any shelf, it was unbeknownst to me. Like, I didn't. I didn't form any negative thought against the church that I can remember besides feeling lied to by my teachers. That wasn't in my mind. That wasn't the church. That was just little Tennessee Mormon teachers that stepped out of line that day for me.

Kayli Hinckley [01:26:51] One thing that I wonder about with that is the way you describe yourself is so optimized, and here you have permission from basically God who's speaking through the patriarch, to not have to go. It's like an out where you don't have to feel shame because you Have a reason and it's from the top. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:15] There was no. There was no need for me to worry about something that was already decided. And in my mind, I've been preparing to be a mother. I've been preparing to get married already for these past two years. So why would I pause that to go do something that, number one, the men can do, or number two, the girls that are told in their patriarchal blessing to go. Like, I don't need to jump in that pool because I'm not. I'm not needed, obviously.

Dating a Non-Member and the Push to Convert

John Dehlin [01:27:49] So let's talk about dating non members and your. Who would become your future husband started out rough, obviously. So you were taught not only not to date until you're 16, but what else?

Margi Dehlin [01:28:05] I wouldn't say that I was taught not to date non members. It was just so I had to wait until I was 16. I told everyone I had to wait until I was 16. So there was obviously this. There's a. There's a religious reason that she's waiting, so she's different. So that already set me apart. I also dress differently. So if you're going to be interested in me, you're going to have to not want the norm. So you have to earn it. Yeah, kind of. So, yeah. These boys that I would not date, I would not consider them. I wouldn't consider that I dated them, but just talked to and then parents kind of said no. Their parents, they were always very open. I remember one time there was a boy who was like, mom's just not so sure she wants you to come to our weekly. The weekly Bible studies that she does with the girls from our church. So, like a vetting process. Like, we wanna make sure that you're. And I was like, okay, yeah, I'll do that. And then didn't happen. Because mom says no. Because you're a Mormon? No, his mom.

Nathan Hinckley [01:29:09] Oh.

Margi Dehlin [01:29:09] My parents were fine with it because we live in an area where there's not a dating pool of Mormons. Like, we'd have to drive an hour and a half to get to the nearest ward. And even then, it's like all of those guys are going on missions and they're going out west. So for me, it honestly felt like I just need to convert somebody here, like, so I can date a non member. That's fine. They just need to be open. So I was also doing a vetting process of how against this are you? Because I know you're against it. Like, I know they're against it, but are you open to the fact that I'm not as weird as I may seem. And, you know, because if there didn't seem to be any wiggle room, if I didn't think I could bring them over to the light side, then I. I wasn't. I would have said no at that point. I just never got. I never got in far enough because they always had their parents to. To say, that's not going to work. So until Ethan came along, and then he didn't have parents. He didn't have parents that said no. So that ended up progressing.

John Dehlin [01:30:12] Do you want to talk about dating Ethan?

Kayli Hinckley [01:30:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:30:14] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:15] So we met in high school, and it was around the time my childhood home burned down, actually, in 2018, I think. And that kind of put us in contact. It was him saying, hey, sorry. Sorry about what happened, and is there anything you need? And I'm not 16 yet. I think I was three or four months away from being 16. So I still had that shield. Still had that out again. But we talked for a little while. He's. Ethan has. They've been. They go to church. Like, they have been to churches, but they've never been very Baptist. They've never been very. They've just been to different churches. And so he didn't know what Mormon was. He didn't know. I think we asked him at one point, like, is there something different about Kaylee? No, there's nothing different about her. Like, as in he thought we were asking negative. And dad was like, oh, well, never mind. Like, I was meaning, do you see the light of Jesus in her? Like, that kind of thing? And he. He just has always been so. Like, Kaylee is normal, Kaylee is. He sees me. Like, everyone wished I would have been like, my cousins for him. I've just always been Kaylee. And there's not been anyone to. There's not been the Baptist boys comparing me to their Baptist, you know, girls at their churches. Ethan has just always had a very, I don't know, unique perspective on me. I don't know. Just different. It was different immediately. It felt easy immediately. Besides the fact that I was like, are you sure you're interested in me? Because you have to wait four months to even. For me to even be nice to you, basically, because I have to be mean. Because I don't want you to think I'm not 16 yet. So we're not anything until I'm at least 16. And I was also kind of feeling. It feels so bad to say now, but I was filling him out to see, you know, I need my. I need to get married in the temple. And I told him that I had guys from the stake that I was still texting and talking to. And I told him, I said, I'm going to keep talking to them basically because I need a backup if this, if you don't work out, which I've apologized so many times just going ahead and saying that.

John Dehlin [01:32:38] You were 15.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:39] Yes, I have apologized so many times.

Kayli Hinckley [01:32:42] I.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:44] But that was important to me for him to know that I expect if you're not, if you're not converted and going on a mission and marry me in the temple. Okay. The mission thing is like, okay, my, I might back off on that, but like the other two things are necessary. And he knew that from the start.

John Dehlin [01:33:03] Mormon kids are taught that the most important decision you'll ever make is who you marry, where you marry them, and you marry them at the right place at the right time, the right person at the right place at the right time, meaning they're a member. You get married in the temple when you're worthy. Right? Is that right?

Margi Dehlin [01:33:25] Yep. And I was told in my patriarchal blessing that I would have these pool of guys to choose from. So of course I, you know, had these faithful Mormon guys that grew up in the covenant that were going to serve missions and probably move out west. And if I had to do that, I would do it, but I'd really prefer to stay with my mom. So we're going to see how this works. And I turned 16. He was 17. We were like, okay, let's start meeting with the missionaries. So like, we, we were dating. Like, like I, I followed the, for the strength of youth standards to a T, except for the fact that it's really hard to group date out in the East. So there's the rule that you're supposed to group date until you're 18, and then when you're 18, you can single date. And I was like, I'm not doing that, not doing that. So we, we would one on one sometimes we would double date with my cousins or, or whatever, but we were dating like normal people besides, you know, following the other for the strength of youth standard standards, which he hated, but we did. And then he's.

John Dehlin [01:34:27] No, nothing.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:28] No, no, yeah, nothing. No nothing's. I mean, we were basically. And he told me this several times. He's like, I basically just feel like I'm your friend. Like I'm. And I'm like, well, you're my best friend. Like, I don't have any other friend like you.

Kayli Hinckley [01:34:39] You're my very Special friend.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:41] Yeah. Like. And we would get. That was the only time we would fight. Only time we would fight. We would. I would be sobbing my eyes out in the car because he'd be like, I just want to be like.

John Dehlin [01:34:50] Like, make out, Right?

Nathan Hinckley [01:34:51] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:52] I just want to be like your boyfriend. I want to be closer to you. And I'm like, well, is as close as we're getting.

Kayli Hinckley [01:34:59] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:59] I don't. I. And I felt bad then, but there was. And I. And I. Yeah, I want to be close to you, too, but there's this. This thick of a book between us, the for the strength of you standards that lists it out. It makes it easy for me. So I'm sorry that you feel that way, but. Which, looking back now, is. He was trying to voice a need. And I want. And I. Like, I did the entire time we dated, I just kind of put my needs above his and the church above his needs, because that's what comes first, always.

John Dehlin [01:35:37] There's an argument that that's good. It kept you from having, what, Unwanted, you know, Child.

Kayli Hinckley [01:35:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:35:43] Pregnancies or whatever. Right.

Margi Dehlin [01:35:45] That's true. Yeah. I don't know. I feel like there's probably a healthier way to go about it, and I don't know what it is, but I was. I was policing myself. I was policing him. I. It shouldn't have worked out, it really. Like, he's just an angel and perfect, and so everything worked out, but any sane human probably would have been like, you're a nutjob. This is too much. If you're. If you don't. He didn't grow up very religious. He didn't grow up with rules. So I think he saw the rules. Like, okay, these are good. Like, I see her. She's great. Like, I. I love who you are, and I love the person you've become. So, okay, the rules are obviously good. He sees our family, and he wants that. He wants the family that my dad has, and he wants the success that my dad has. And he idolizes my dad. And so obviously, when Nathan says it's time for him to meet with the missionaries. Okay, it's time for me to meet with the missionaries.

John Dehlin [01:36:47] How did he like the teachings of the Mormon missionaries?

Margi Dehlin [01:36:50] Well, it was sister missionaries, so he. They were awesome. They were so sweet. They were also very, very pushy. I think it was the first. The first meeting that it was, okay, let's set a date. And I'm. For his baptism.

John Dehlin [01:37:05] The first time they met with him.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:06] Yes. And I'm like, whoa, whoa, Whoa, whoa, whoa. And Dad's like, no, it's good, it's good. But I just was very stunned. Like, I. This has taken me 19, 18 years. I don't know how old I was. 16. 16 years to. To be so sure about all of this stuff. And you're expecting him to tell you a date before we've even. I think we said the prayer. Like, we. We might have been 30 minutes. I don't know. It just. And I had never been. I'd never been in a. Like a conversion. Like a convert meeting or whatever the lessons that they do. I'd never been in that position before. So it was very strange. And I didn't see. I mean, I did see it at the time, that it was very pushy, even. Even then.

John Dehlin [01:37:51] But how long did he take the discussions for?

Margi Dehlin [01:37:54] We took him for. We. We did a few lessons, and then it ended up being that his dad wanted him to wait to make the decision until he was 18. So we waited a year, and then I think it was three months after he turned 18. We finished the lessons, and he got baptized in October 2020.

John Dehlin [01:38:14] And did he ever express concerns about the teachings or doubts or issues with.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:19] He had a lot of. He was very concerned about the idea of a patriarchal blessing. Would not get on board with it. And I was like, what was his concern? Nobody can speak for God. Like, I would try to explain. I didn't want to read it to him because we're not married yet, and you're not supposed to show it to anybody but your spouse. But I was trying to explain. Like, no, like, it's coming true. Like, see, I'm. You know, like, I'm.

John Dehlin [01:38:42] I'm.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:43] I'm picking you and I'm going to be a mut. Like, nothing had come true yet. But there. There were. There were things in my patriarchal blessing that I was like. It said I had the gift of discernment. And my entire. My entire childhood, I was. I was very apt to pick out people not to trust and ended up being. I think it says that you'll know good people from evil people or something like that. And I believed that I could do that. And so it was almost like I was given these little magical gifts, and I saw them happening in my life, and I was trying to tell him no. Like, you have to believe in a patriarch because you have to believe in this hierarchy of power. And of. Yeah, he did not get on board with that. And we just stopped talking about it at that point because I was like, okay, let's not talk about your questions because we need you to get baptized. And if you have questions, that's not going to lead to baptism. So we have to just be quiet about it.

Kayli Hinckley [01:39:33] Let me help you.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:34] Thought stop this. Yes, exactly. Let me teach you this thing I've been learning since I, I was a toddler. Yes.

John Dehlin [01:39:38] Meaning thought stopping.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:40] Yes.

Kayli Hinckley [01:39:40] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just.

John Dehlin [01:39:41] It's infectious.

Kayli Hinckley [01:39:42] Just mind.

John Dehlin [01:39:44] Let me give you a little bit

Margi Dehlin [01:39:45] of my mind control. Yeah,

John Dehlin [01:39:48] yeah. I mean, that's loosely called flirt to convert that you weren't doing that you were looking for your eternal companion. But that's one of the major ways people join the church in Mormonism is they either see a really, they have a really, say, unhealthy or dysfunctional or lonely or isolated upbringing, and they see a really solid Mormon family that. And they say, I want that type of family. Or they meet some cute girl or boy who's Mormon and then they take the discussions because they know it's, it's, you know, joining the church is part of the conditions for marriage. It's especially in, quote, the mission field. This is very, very normal, important stuff for how the church, frankly, how the church grows outside of Utah. Right. I think. And how Mormons find mates in places where there aren't a lot of Mormons to date. Right.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:40:43] It's a very different reality than in Utah or Idaho or Arizona. Right.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:48] Especially when half of the Mormon population in our ward is going out west, like to BYU's. Yeah.

Kayli Hinckley [01:40:55] There.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:55] And so for me, it was kind of. I wasn't going to do that. I wasn't going to put all my eggs in this basket when all of the chickens were going to fly away when they turned 18. Like, I, I don't know. It was imperative that I find somebody that was willing to, to convert for me.

John Dehlin [01:41:12] And you didn't want to go to the BYU's. Why was that?

Margi Dehlin [01:41:15] I had, besides the, like, idolizing these girls that lived in Utah and like, how they looked and, and things like that. I was very much against going to byu. And I think I probably called the BYU Mormons fake Mormons more often than I didn't. And I just was very. Anytime somebody's like, oh, are you going to byu? No. Why would you even ask me that? Like, I don't need that. I don't need to. I don't need. I can be different here. I don't need to go assimilate into BYU culture when I, I'm doing just fine right here in Tennessee.

John Dehlin [01:41:48] Yeah. A lot of times Mormons in Utah are just going along with it. Cause it's what everyone does versus in the, quote, mission field. You have to figure out it's true because it's. It's a commitment, and it's not what everyone else is doing. And so there's no way. You don't just go with the flow in the mission field. You're going always against the flow. Right. And so you got to believe it, because it takes effort to swim against the flow. Is that right? Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:15] And we have to drive 30 minutes to our ward building. We have to drive an hour to an hour and a half to Activities in, you know, Knoxville. And it's just at every point, there's a hurdle and we're willing to make the jump. Whereas I feel like it's. I've never lived in Utah, but I feel like it's much easier to just exist as a Mormon in Utah.

John Dehlin [01:42:35] So Ethan got baptized. Who baptized him?

Margi Dehlin [01:42:39] This guy. This great guy right here.

John Dehlin [01:42:41] Is there anything worth mentioning about Ethan's conversion and baptism?

Margi Dehlin [01:42:44] Just that his family has been. I mean, they obviously saw what I was doing, but they obviously saw that we loved each other. And Ethan had made it clear very early on that he was going to marry me to his dad. I later find out. And that if this is what he has to do to do it, he's going to do it because he wants to be with me and he wants the life that I want and that I expect that I expect us to have.

Kayli Hinckley [01:43:11] I just have a quick question. Did Ethan ever Google Mormonism at all? Or.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:18] So he did, but I was always over his shoulder saying, don't believe that. That's a lie. Or I think there were some people. His dad was maybe going to church at that point, who had met a man who had been Mormon or dated somebody that was Mormon and knew all of the secrets. And Ethan's dad really wanted him to meet with him. And I was like, you can, but I'm just gonna tell you right now, he's under the influence of Satan. So just know going into it that he's gonna tell you a bunch of lies. And of course he didn't meet with him, because I'm sitting here telling him all of the true things. And there's no. So I'm just now looking back and seeing Ethan's dad being like, done. All I can do. And they're good people, so. Okay. But you'll figure it out on your own.

John Dehlin [01:44:04] So do you think Ethan's parents were thinking, we're losing our son To a cult. Do you think they were thinking that

Margi Dehlin [01:44:10] I wasn't privy to the conversations, the screaming fight they had about it? Yeah, I. But yeah, I mean, and they knew me and they knew that I. Which is why it hurt my feelings so much when I would know that the conversations were happening. Because I'm like, you all like me. Like, I'm normal. I'm not. I don't have horns. Which they knew I didn't. But they were. They were hearing all these things from, like, if it's not true, it's not true. And if you have to do all these crazy rules and not drink coffee and do, you know, meet all these standards that are just arbitrary, like, why. Why do that? But if it's going to make you a better person, okay, Ethan, you can, you know, like that kind of thing. So it wasn't the end of the world for him, specifically because he saw Ethan becoming a better person. I think as. That's what Ethan would say anyway, as. As he was dating me, he was implementing these rules that I was kind of forcing onto him.

Kayli Hinckley [01:45:02] And.

Margi Dehlin [01:45:02] And he saw himself. Saw himself as becoming better. And so in that way, it. No harm, no foul, I guess, in his dad's mind.

John Dehlin [01:45:12] As far as, you know, when Ethan decides to get baptized, is it in his mind? Oh, yep. I prayed. I got a witness from the Holy Ghost. I know the church is true. And so I'm Jo. I'm now joining the one true church because I believe it. Or is it like, I don't know all about all this stuff, but I love, you know, I love Kaylee. And so I'm gonna. I'm gonna do it even though I don't really believe it, but I just gotta do it because that's the way that we get to get married. Do you know which way it was? Or something in the middle.

Margi Dehlin [01:45:39] Yeah, something in the middle. It was a lot of. Nathan is smart and he's. He's basically teaching me these lessons and he knows it all and it makes sense when he tells me all these things. So.

John Dehlin [01:45:50] So you were a person, Nathan. You had become a person of influence and authority. A bishop is kind of like a priest or a pastor. That's a high level position of authority in the church.

Nathan Hinckley [01:46:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:46:02] And you would have not only been a bishop, but now you're in the stake, which is an even higher position of authority. And so you were helping teach Ethan.

Nathan Hinckley [01:46:11] And I think what she said was probably right, that he saw us as a functioning, loving family, you know, that things were seemed. We're going great. And so I would have to say that his parents saw that also and said even though they have maybe crazy beliefs, they're still good people.

John Dehlin [01:46:31] And so it was a healthy lifestyle, a girl he loved, a family. That was great. And, you know, we'll see in the future how much his beliefs grow. Right?

Margi Dehlin [01:46:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:46:45] Yeah. Okay. How really quickly, before we talk about your engagement, how was your testimony doing through all this? You talk about some stagnation. Do you want to talk about that?

Margi Dehlin [01:46:54] Yeah. I would always have my mom checking in. You know, I was juggling early morning seminary and basketball and softball and high school and college credits and all these things. And she would check in and how's your testimony? Because I wouldn't get up and bear my testimony for testimony meeting just because I have stage fright. And I do not like to do that. But she would check in when that would happen and fine, fine, Mom. Like, there was no reason for me to actively search things out. Like, I went to church on Sunday. I went to, you know, while I was still in youth. I went to activities on Wednesday and there was nothing extra that needed to be done. Like, I could go read conference talks, but, like, that's just another thing to add to my plate. Like, I was comfortable in the stagnation. It didn't feel negative to me. It felt like, I'm safe here. I trust what I'm being told on. On Sundays. That's really all that I knew existed. Like, I didn't know there was anything deeper to be. Like, I went to Palmyra. I went to all of these places. Like, I know church history. Like, there's nothing else for me to learn. There's nowhere for me to grow to. Like, I'm going to these classes I'm supposed to be going to. I'll go to the temple at some point, but for now, like, I know all that I need to know. I know all that there is to know. So I don't feel like I need to get up every fast and testimony meeting and say the same thing over and over again. I'm good.

John Dehlin [01:48:22] Okay. So no big doubts weighing on you? No shelf, so to speak, devout, committed, scrupulous, orthodox, believing Mormon, daughter of a former bishop, converted, your high school boyfriend, ready to get married to the right person at the right place at the right time. Is that right?

Margi Dehlin [01:48:47] The only doubt or worry that ever pop that ever comes in is when I get engaged and see the temple in the future and get really, really nervous about what the heck I'm gonna find in there. Because that's the only thing that I can't seek out because I can't Google it. Obviously, they're not talking about it. All I can do is go to temple prep, and that was on the calendar.

Engagement, Temple Worthiness, and Anxiety

John Dehlin [01:49:10] So do you want to talk about your engagement then? Is that next step?

Margi Dehlin [01:49:14] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:49:15] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:49:15] His next steps.

Nathan Hinckley [01:49:16] All right.

Margi Dehlin [01:49:18] Just that he had proposed.

John Dehlin [01:49:21] You were how old?

Margi Dehlin [01:49:22] 19.

John Dehlin [01:49:23] So you were out of high school?

Margi Dehlin [01:49:24] Yep. Yep. In college. He had graduated with his associate's degree, so he was about to start his job. He had wanted to propose in high school, like, he was sure years before. And I said no. I said, wait. There was also the question of mission. Like, maybe you'll get a prompting. Maybe you'll go get your patriarchal blessing like I've been telling you to do. And he'll tell you you need to go on a mission, and in that case, we can't be engaged. Like, there's always that chance. But he wouldn't get his patriarchal blessing. So I was finally like, okay, yeah, like, that's next steps then. And he ended up proposing, and we were ready to start making temple plans.

John Dehlin [01:50:11] So you weren't. You were like, I found the right guy, so if he doesn't go on a mission, I still want to do it.

Margi Dehlin [01:50:18] Yeah. I've never thought that I have to have a returned missionary. And I think I had actually seen in my personal life or in family life anyway, that they're not always the best. Like, they're not perfect. Return missionaries are not perfect. Are not perfect. And if Ethan is willing to do all this extra work, it kind of equates to a mission. And also, there's always a chance we can go when we're older.

John Dehlin [01:50:42] I am trying to imagine dating a Mormon girl as a never Mormon, and then even converting to the church, but going two or three or four years dating this person and. And obeying the law of chastity the whole time. Was. Was that just something y' all did, or was that a struggle?

Margi Dehlin [01:51:04] I think in those couple of years, like graduating high school, and then in preparation for getting married, I had a lot of panic attacks. And always around the topic of sex, and it was always not him asking, not him asking to do that. Just to be closer to kiss a little bit longer than a second Kaylee. Like, little. Little tiny things. And I kept saying, like, if you push me one little, like, if we kiss now, then there goes that first, and then that won't be special anymore. And then the same thing with having sex. It's like, I want things to be Special. And I want them to happen in the order that they're supposed to happen. So I remember we didn't kiss for a long time because I was like, that's. You know, like, it's a thing that you do at some point, and then it just becomes a thing you do. Like, it's like a stepping stone. And it had to be pushed down the way because I knew I had to wait till I was married to do anything more than that. So it's like we had to wait two years to kiss, because that's. I want you to be interested in me for the long haul. And if we kiss now, then you're not gonna be interested in me, you know, because I'm gonna make you wait. That kind of thing. Yeah, I was hardcore.

Kayli Hinckley [01:52:21] Yeah. Okay, so we've established. I feel like a disconnect, right. That you feel probably, in retrospect now, right to yourself kind of to your body, to your inner kind of self, to. So I guess my question is, as you're dating, do you notice that you have sexual feelings, or are you still disconnected? Is it still a little bit more like a dissociated state of, like, here's what I can do, here's what I can't do, here's what I. But you're not really in your body about it. Does that make sense? Yeah. And policing him.

Margi Dehlin [01:53:01] It's very, very much so. I would even say, like, a dissociative state. Like, when I would have these panic attacks, I would be, like, out of body and, like. I can't think of the word now. Like, spinning. And I don't know, there's probably psychology behind it, but, like, I. We would be taught, you know, as people do, like, about the future or about whatever, about being into. And I would totally shut down. Like, I would. That's a conversation for later. We're not. There's no point in talking about it now because, first of all, you're stressing me out. You're making me talk about my body, which is not something I'm comfortable doing.

Kayli Hinckley [01:53:38] And

Margi Dehlin [01:53:41] he was the most. Like. It's such a normal topic. He thinks you can just talk about that, and you should. And he should have been able to. It should have been something you talk about before you get married. But I just couldn't. Physically couldn't. Mentally couldn't. I don't know. I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:53:59] That is kind of an extraordinary story, because I think the norm is that kids fudge or they goof up or they. You know. Bailey.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:54:07] Because she's kind of perfectionistic.

Nathan Hinckley [01:54:09] Yeah, she, I mean, and, and all of that. I mean, I feel like it's, it's just self motivated or whatever. Like we didn't, you know, we would have been okay with a, a be or whatever. Like she did that. She got herself up for seminary. She drove off in the morning with, you know, snow on the ground and, and you know, and there was a couple times I'm, I remember thinking, what am I, why am I letting my daughter drive off in a foggy morning? Because she's not going to miss. Even though she had a basketball game the night before and didn't get home until midnight, she's getting herself up for early morning sitting in it.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:53] She's.

Nathan Hinckley [01:54:53] That's, that's how she's always been.

Kayli Hinckley [01:54:57] I mean, I think on some level there's this, this idea of like the hustle. You're hustling for your worth. You're hustling or your value, and it becomes this cycle, right? You're only as good as the last good, perfect thing you did. And I think that's, that's one aspect of this. I'm, I'm curious though, if, you know, psychologically there's this torture also that, that you're having to, to live up to this standard that you are feeling driven to. Right? So I guess are you having an experience of like something existential, of like, what's at stake? Like when you're getting up, you're. And you're doing all this hustle and you're having panic attacks, you know, when you're talking about your body and now you're in relationship with someone. Do you remember feeling this sense of like. I guess I don't want to put words in your mouth, right. But like this, it's, it feels desperate. It feels like there's so much at stake at every moment, in every decision. There's just so much at stake. Are you feeling that?

Margi Dehlin [01:56:06] I, I think I write in my outline that I was living with the question of temple worthiness in the back of my head always. So from the first time that I took a temple recommendation, like met with the bishop and he asked me the questions I. In, like, I cataloged them in my brain. When I was 8, how old would I have been? 12. Yeah, 12. And from that time on, every decision I made was, okay, so I get paid for doing yard work or something. If I'm not paying my tithing, my 10 cents of tithing or whatever the next Sunday, then technically my answer to are you a Full tithe payer is no. And I would not get into the temple, which means I would not get into the celestial kingdom. And so it was the same thing with the question of the law of chastity. Am I living the law of chastity? Well, Ethan, when you're asking me these questions and making me think about something inappropriate, then, no, I'm not. That's technically impure thoughts, which is not. Would not pass on a temple worthiness interview.

Kayli Hinckley [01:57:17] Right. So it kind of feels like it's salvation. Or not. It's binary. It's like I am saved and exalted or in the celestial kingdom, which makes you, you know, more apt to be with your fam versus not.

Margi Dehlin [01:57:30] Which is. Which was reinforced when my sister was stillborn. And so I have a sister waiting for me in the celestial kingdom. So every decision that I make, my mom and dad are going to be there. They're going to be there with their daughter, with Paisley. So every decision I make either keeps me with them or it separates me from them, because even. Even the next level down is not. Is not good enough. Definitely not good enough for me.

Loss, Grief, and Family Faith Transitions

John Dehlin [01:58:02] Did we talk about that stillbirth? Did we.

Nathan Hinckley [01:58:04] No, we haven't. So that was in 2011. And

John Dehlin [01:58:13] what number in the birth order was that?

Nathan Hinckley [01:58:15] So she would have been before. So we have a. We have four kids, and she would have been the fourth, and then our youngest son would have been the fifth.

John Dehlin [01:58:26] So. Yeah.

Nathan Hinckley [01:58:28] So younger.

John Dehlin [01:58:29] It would have been a younger sister to you, Kaylee.

Kayli Hinckley [01:58:31] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:58:32] And you were how old, Kaylee, when the baby was still born?

Nathan Hinckley [01:58:35] It was 2011.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:36] Oh, no. Don't make me do math.

John Dehlin [01:58:38] How old are you? What year were you born?

Margi Dehlin [01:58:40] 2003.

John Dehlin [01:58:42] So that's eight years. You're eight years old. Baptism age when you're.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:45] Because I wore.

John Dehlin [01:58:45] My sister died.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:46] I wore my baptism dress to her funeral.

Kayli Hinckley [01:58:48] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:58:48] Okay. Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:49] Y.

John Dehlin [01:58:50] And what was that like? So, like, this is kind of Saturday's warrior stuff of, like, these spirits that are supposed to come to earth and inhabit.

Nathan Hinckley [01:58:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:58:58] The bodies. And so there's a spirit. Did you believe that there was a spirit up in heaven named Paisley? Paisley, yeah. Who came to the fetus and was there, but then the fetus died. And so Paisley wasn't going to get her mortal experience, but she was going to be, what, an exalted being in heaven. And y' all would all live worthy to be with Paisley someday. Was that an important part of your family culture?

Nathan Hinckley [01:59:25] That was. That was. And that was our belief and our feeling. I just not Too long ago, I was watching back some video footage because, you guys know I'm in the videography business. And so all of this stuff was recorded with, you know, funerals and talking. And I used to love this analogy, which I've talked about a lot as bishop, but also at her funeral, where I would take a long string and just put one little knot right in the middle of it, you know, and so everything on this side of the string is. Is pre. Earth life, and this earth life is this knot. But all of this to come. And so everything depends on this life. And, you know, we can be with a blip, it's.

John Dehlin [02:00:12] This life is.

Nathan Hinckley [02:00:13] But a blip, it doesn't matter. You know, we can. We can just get through it and suffer whatever we have to do. And so I. I talked about that at her funeral. And, you know, it was a time, I think, that our family, we became a lot closer and. And. But probably it also added a lot

Margi Dehlin [02:00:33] of

Nathan Hinckley [02:00:35] stress or a lot of weight on making sure we do the right things to be with.

John Dehlin [02:00:43] Because, Katie, that's the most emotional you've been in the interview, just mentioning Paisley.

Nathan Hinckley [02:00:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:00:49] So did. Was she always with you, in a sense, in your mind?

Margi Dehlin [02:00:54] When I would pray, I would do a prayer to God, obviously. But in it. Sorry, I would talk to her. And so there was just this another thing that I was putting above myself that I was trying to attain, that I was trying to reach. I have this sister that was too good to come to earth. God needed her too much. But I'm here. You didn't need me. But it's just another. Another element to this needing to live up to this unattainable picture of my sister that I never even. I don't even know what color hair was like. I don't know anything about her, but over the past however many years, she's been somebody I prayed to, so. Sorry.

John Dehlin [02:02:08] No.

Nathan Hinckley [02:02:10] So a year. A year after that is when I was called to be bishop.

John Dehlin [02:02:14] Yeah. And where did this idea come from that she was taken? She was taken because she was so good. She wasn't even. Didn't even need to come to earth. Where'd that idea come from?

Margi Dehlin [02:02:30] I mean, it was my first, like, dealing with death. So it might have been in conversations with my parents or just. She was my one chance at a sister. I have three brothers now, and so it's me trying to deal with why did God not give me a sister? And I guess we came to the conclusion that they just really need her to do work in heaven. Right now. And God needs her more than you need her. As much as you need a sister. God needs her more than you all do. Than my mom, than my dad. Then we need her.

John Dehlin [02:03:08] And also that you felt inferior to her because she was chosen to stay with God and you weren't.

Margi Dehlin [02:03:15] And I don't know that I've ever even conceptualized that until just now, but it obviously was in my head because I just said it.

John Dehlin [02:03:24] And then, you know, you see in fiction, like, or in real life, someone having, like, a teddy bear that's that they talk to, or a guardian angel, or like a friend, like, I don't want to say imaginary friend to belittle it, but like someone you can pour your heart out to and tell everything to. It sounds like she may have played that role for you. Or just the idea of her. She was real to you. Is that right?

Margi Dehlin [02:03:51] Yep. I would have dreams. I don't know if she had bond hair, but in my dream she had blonde hair. So just.

Kayli Hinckley [02:03:58] I don't know.

Margi Dehlin [02:03:58] I've just. I've had a sister. When people ask how many siblings I have, I say four, so.

John Dehlin [02:04:05] Wow. Thanks for sharing that.

Nathan Hinckley [02:04:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:04:10] That's sensitive stuff. So you got engaged. Is it okay if we jump now back to Nathan?

Margi Dehlin [02:04:17] Yes, please.

John Dehlin [02:04:18] You ready?

Margi Dehlin [02:04:19] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:04:20] So, Nathan, you were bishop and in the Stake High Council. You know, you never imagined anyone ever in your family having questions and doubts about the church and it was going to be smooth sailing to the celestial kingdom. What the freak happened? What the freak happened? Bishop Hinckley.

Nathan Hinckley [02:04:39] First thing that happened was my sister and her husband and her family stepped away from the church. I was bishop. And so what year was that?

John Dehlin [02:04:51] We would have talked about that last episode. But you were bishop when Lindsay.

Nathan Hinckley [02:04:55] Yeah, I was bishop. So it would have been 2,000, maybe 15.

John Dehlin [02:05:01] How did you deal with that?

Nathan Hinckley [02:05:03] It was devastating, you know, just devastating. Why? You would give up the one true church and change some aspects of your lifestyle. And I just remember I had to speak all the time. People would not show up. So of course the bishop will fill the time. I just remember talking, bearing testimony and talking all the time about staying close to the trunk of the tree. And I just assumed that they started dabbling, you know, in coffee or, well, deep doctrine or whatever, that kind of stuff, you know, just staying close to the faith and repentance, you know.

John Dehlin [02:05:43] And did they try and talk to you? I. I reading through their. Well, having interviewed them, they were starting to have doctrinal questions first. Did they try to talk to you about those before, you know, before they ever left the church.

Nathan Hinckley [02:05:57] Yeah. So we, we really didn't have that many conversations about doctrinal issues.

John Dehlin [02:06:04] Wonder why they wouldn't come to you if y' all were so close.

Nathan Hinckley [02:06:12] Well, I, I was not willing to consider any of the things that we can. That we called anti.

John Dehlin [02:06:21] So if they're questioning things, they wouldn't have probably felt safe to come to you because you were as hardcore as Kaylee.

Nathan Hinckley [02:06:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:06:27] Right.

Nathan Hinckley [02:06:28] And the, the only thing that I kept telling them that I recommended and I recommended, the thing that helped me the most, which was to listen to the Truman G. Madsen lectures on Joseph Smith. I love them. I listened to them before my mission, I listened to them after. I memorized them. I gave stake sponsored firesides about all of this information. The little details that a lot of people didn't know about the Kirtland Temple and all of these things. I mean, I just absolutely loved them. And so I would, I would send them. You know, it wasn't really a podcast at that time, but the links to. To that. And just listen to this. And this will show you that this church is true. And all this.

John Dehlin [02:07:16] It basically makes Joseph Smith seem like Jesus, you know, like the most righteous, courageous, faithful human that's ever lived. Right, right.

Nathan Hinckley [02:07:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:25] Yeah.

Nathan Hinckley [02:07:26] And so that was a blow to me, to our family. You know, all of a sudden we had, you know, this part of the family that we would get together and now it. We weren't all members and there was this little bit of tension about church and things. And there was even. There's kind of like this ricochet, bounce back effect, whatever you want to call it, where we, we all kind of doubled down. We created a face, a Facebook group

John Dehlin [02:07:56] group

Nathan Hinckley [02:07:58] amongst ourselves without her, that we could share conference talks and things.

John Dehlin [02:08:03] Like a faithful Hinckley family members.

Nathan Hinckley [02:08:05] Right. We're the good ones.

John Dehlin [02:08:07] I mean, and Lindsay was cut out of that. Todd were cut out of it.

Nathan Hinckley [02:08:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:08:10] So she didn't know that that group existed.

Nathan Hinckley [02:08:12] Yeah. Which I wasn't part of creating it, but I was included in it. And it was just simply, we want to talk about church stuff. She doesn't. So, you know, this is where we'll do it.

Kayli Hinckley [02:08:26] So to be clear, it wasn't that you were talking about her.

John Dehlin [02:08:30] No.

Kayli Hinckley [02:08:30] On the thread. It was literally more.

Nathan Hinckley [02:08:32] Here's a conference talk. I really like you guys. Yeah. You know, let's all read this and listen to it or whatever.

Kayli Hinckley [02:08:38] So I see.

John Dehlin [02:08:39] But as the person who's, you know, no longer believing to know that the Family created this group that they didn't tell you about, that they're all having communications with can feel terrible. Right? Right. Yeah.

Nathan Hinckley [02:08:51] So that was the first kind of hit to. To the family, and not so much to me, like I doubled down as far as the church is concerned. Now another.

John Dehlin [02:09:01] Did you treat them worse? Did you treat them so. In a condescending way? Did you treat them as inferior?

Nathan Hinckley [02:09:08] I did. I feel like, you know, I feel like I treated them worse than anyone in the family. I don't know. To hear them say it, they would. They have told me. You treated us exactly like you would. If you truly believe what you believe,

John Dehlin [02:09:30] because they're giving up eternal salvation and breaking the family unity in the celestial kingdom. Why wouldn't you be severe?

Margi Dehlin [02:09:39] Right.

John Dehlin [02:09:39] In how you view them and in how you treat them. Because what else? There's no higher stakes, Right? Yeah.

Nathan Hinckley [02:09:45] I mean, I remember telling my wife, you know, basically saying Todd is not a man of his word because I know the things that he promised with the priesthood and the temple and things, and he's going against it.

John Dehlin [02:09:58] He's a covenant. He's a covenant breaker.

Nathan Hinckley [02:09:59] He's a covenant breaker.

John Dehlin [02:10:00] Yeah.

Nathan Hinckley [02:10:01] You know, I was. I was pretty harsh.

Kayli Hinckley [02:10:03] This probably is why she did not come to you. Back to that question earlier. It's beginning to make sense.

Nathan Hinckley [02:10:13] Yeah, I. I feel like I was probably the. The rough, you know, roughest one in the family.

John Dehlin [02:10:21] Judgmental, condescending, short, distant, all those things. Is that fair? I think so. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Nathan Hinckley [02:10:29] Unfortunately, coupled with that, I have.

John Dehlin [02:10:33] Wait, Katie, what did you think about Lindsay and Todd leaving?

Margi Dehlin [02:10:36] It was kept very hush hush. Oh. I think I. They finally told me and it was still, even then. Like, I never asked why. Like, I didn't want to know why Aunt Lindsay had left.

John Dehlin [02:10:50] Like, it doesn't seem like they were like blabbing all over the world about it.

Nathan Hinckley [02:10:53] No, no.

Kayli Hinckley [02:10:54] Well, and also, you know, we know that it was communicated to them explicitly not to talk about it. Not to.

John Dehlin [02:11:02] By state leadership.

Kayli Hinckley [02:11:04] No.

Nathan Hinckley [02:11:04] By my dad.

Margi Dehlin [02:11:06] Yeah.

Kayli Hinckley [02:11:07] Right. To. Because it was perceived as a threat.

Nathan Hinckley [02:11:09] As a threat.

Kayli Hinckley [02:11:10] Yeah.

Nathan Hinckley [02:11:11] So actually do not tell the other kids.

Kayli Hinckley [02:11:13] That's right.

Nathan Hinckley [02:11:14] These things. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:11:15] So they're going through really hard stuff, having no one to talk to, feeling isolated, feeling judged, and they just have to stay silent or go find other friends because the, the people that should be there for them, the people that should be most supportive, the people they love most, are all like, judging them and, and, and isolating them and wanting little to nothing to do with them.

Nathan Hinckley [02:11:36] Yeah.

Kayli Hinckley [02:11:36] They.

Nathan Hinckley [02:11:37] They did not speak out. They didn't post things online like I remember that they did. Lindsay had just posted this poem that she had found that was like, what if God is just this good feeling that we have? And what if. What if it was just kind of like this what if type thing.

John Dehlin [02:11:57] Yeah. And.

Nathan Hinckley [02:11:59] Oh, she got. She got attacked. She just got attacked.

John Dehlin [02:12:03] It wasn't like, Joseph's a pedophile.

Nathan Hinckley [02:12:05] No, no. It was like, what a poem? Church is just, you know, community or whatever. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:12:11] What if.

Kayli Hinckley [02:12:12] What if God or church is a tree on a sunny day.

Nathan Hinckley [02:12:17] Yeah.

Kayli Hinckley [02:12:17] Or a bird singing from a.

Margi Dehlin [02:12:20] You can't say that. No, I cannot say that.

Nathan Hinckley [02:12:24] So not only did they leave, but I don't know if it was before or after, but it was a very close family on my wife's side who. He was also a bishop named Nathan. Same, same steak. In my opinion, so much more sincere, soft spoken and just genuine, just beautiful family. You know, just as heartfelt. Like, to hear him speaking at church or in one of our meetings, it's like, love to hear him. Just the most sincere guy. And I. I think he was actually. I think it was before Lindsay. At any rate, they were pretty close with each other. They left and I heard about it and I called or texted him. I'm like, dude, what did I just hear? And later I found out I was the only one that ever reached out to me about.

John Dehlin [02:13:19] Yeah, but.

Nathan Hinckley [02:13:20] Yeah, so he just said, thanks for reaching out, you know, but just. We're just dealing with some things.

John Dehlin [02:13:26] So. So the dominoes in Knoxville are starting to fall.

Nathan Hinckley [02:13:29] Y.

John Dehlin [02:13:29] And they're close to the family. In the family.

Nathan Hinckley [02:13:32] Yeah. And so the one other thing that happened is I was bishop and I was selected randomly among bishops by church headquarters to take a survey. Did I cut you off earlier, by the way?

Nathan's Faith Crisis and the Gospel Topics Essays

Margi Dehlin [02:13:48] No.

Nathan Hinckley [02:13:49] Okay. To take a survey.

Kayli Hinckley [02:13:52] So they.

Nathan Hinckley [02:13:53] They said, hey, Bishop Hinckley, you've been selected to take this survey. And it was regarding the gospel topic essays, which had just, you know, recently come out. And it said, so, you know, can you. Can you fill out this information? I kind of treated it like it was going to be a review on a blender or something, you know, like, oh, it's great, you know, check, check and go on. No, it was very in depth. It said, okay, Bishop Hinckley, did you read the essay titled, you know, race in the priesthood? Yes or no? If you click yes, what did you think about, you know, the. What did you think about it? What feedback do you have? Like, they wanted long, detailed Answers. If you click no, it said, why did you not read it? You know, and it prompted you to read it. You know, just very detailed. Next question. Did you read the gospel topic essay on Joseph's, you know, polygamy and, you know, all of the topics? And I started to see some of these topics that I had heard both of these two families through, through the gossip that they were sort of having.

John Dehlin [02:15:10] So. So you hadn't read the Gospel as a bishop? As a bishop when they came out?

Nathan Hinckley [02:15:16] No. Not only had. I didn't know they existed.

John Dehlin [02:15:19] How did you not know they didn't exist if the Church is putting them out?

Nathan Hinckley [02:15:23] Yeah, we were, we were never told. We were never advised. Hey, bishops, you know, just want you to know that this, this is out there. You might have members. No, I had never had any members come to me. I was never given any instruction from stake leaders, from anyone until I get a survey asking me what I think about them.

John Dehlin [02:15:41] Because the church didn't want to spread the doubt virus by telling all their leaders that these essays existed. But they needed the essays to be there to answer the questions of people having doubts and also so that they could have plausible deniability that they were no longer deceiving or hiding things from questioning or doubting members. So. And the Church is on record stating that they intentionally did not let bishops and, and leaders and even the general membership know these essays existed. They intentionally did the soft.

Nathan Hinckley [02:16:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:16:15] Backdoor release of them.

Nathan Hinckley [02:16:17] So that planted a seed. I didn't read some of them. Some of them I was like, I, I really don't, I, I don't want

John Dehlin [02:16:25] to know what's going on with this.

Nathan Hinckley [02:16:28] So I would fast forward until one time I was having a little bit of a debate, argument, whatever, with Todd, my brother in law, and we were talking about polygamy.

John Dehlin [02:16:40] You were no longer a bishop at this point.

Nathan Hinckley [02:16:42] Right.

John Dehlin [02:16:43] Okay.

Nathan Hinckley [02:16:44] And I have always considered myself a Joseph Smith expert. And I gave the firesides and you know, like everyone thought, oh, Nathan, you know, he knows all about it. Well, we were talking about polygamy. Now Todd and Lindsay, for a time they were very much in the Joseph didn't do it camp regarding polygamy.

John Dehlin [02:17:11] So did they kind of go down the Denver snuffer route a little bit?

Nathan Hinckley [02:17:14] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:17:14] Okay. So that's for those who don't know. The Denver snuffer route is Joseph Smith was a prophet, but then Brigham Young, kind of after Joseph died, Brigham Young kind of goofed it up. So everything Joseph taught was good, but everything after it's Bad. And then part of that is that Brigham Young started the polygamy. But Joseph, a man of God, would have never had anything to do with polygamy. And you should seek to get a personal witness with Jesus yourself. That's the other part of the snuffer crowd. So the McCormicks went down the snuffer route. I think I got a sense from that, from their outline, but I wasn't sure.

Nathan Hinckley [02:17:53] Yeah. So, yeah, I won't. I won't speak for him entirely, but they were definitely in the. In the Joseph didn't do it camp for a while.

John Dehlin [02:18:03] Yeah. Yeah.

Nathan Hinckley [02:18:04] So anyways, we were discussing polygamy and. And I was still under the impress impression that Joseph taught it, Brigham lived it. That was kind of my way that I would have explained it. Polygamy. Well, Todd says, I don't know about that. You might want to check with your church about that. And to have someone that has left the church who. I clearly know much more about the church because I'm still in it. Tell me, you might want to check with your church on that. That was a low blow. That was what? You know, honestly, my wife and I, we've talked about this because we had. We have promised each other that we would never look at this stuff that's taking these families away. Like, like, promise me. Like, all we want is to get our kids to the temple on missions, married, you know, that's all we want. We have.

Margi Dehlin [02:19:05] We.

Nathan Hinckley [02:19:05] Promise me you'll never. Yeah, we had. But, you know, I think that was one of the things to have him just kind of say, I don't know, you might want to check with your church. I'm like, what do you mean, check with my church on that? Well, now we know that in the gospel topic essays, the church tells us that Joseph did live polygamy and he

John Dehlin [02:19:27] had,

Nathan Hinckley [02:19:29] I don't even remember how many wives. And they were 34. Yep. And there were some that were already married and there were some that were very, very young. And, you know, just all of these details.

John Dehlin [02:19:41] 14 years old. Yeah. Okay. So when he says, you ought to go read some stuff, number one, you took that as kind of insulting. But number two, it sounds like you decided to take him up on the challenge. Yeah. Is that right?

Nathan Hinckley [02:19:56] That's right.

John Dehlin [02:19:57] So you go to read the gospel topics essays on Joseph Smith's polygamy, and Anne was floored because what?

Nathan Hinckley [02:20:04] I was floored because I found out that, number one, what I had always been taught, that Joseph kind of maybe taught it, but Brigham lived. It was not Accurate. Not only that, in the essays, we learned that it says that the church basically says that Brigham Young gave into the racist teachings of the time, which is a nice way to say he was racist. So to me, the gospel topic essays were basically saying Joseph was a liar. And I mean, what I mean by that was because he's on record saying that. What? You know, people say I have what, seven. Seven wives, but I can find only one. You know, he's on record saying I have one, yet the church is telling me that he had 33.

John Dehlin [02:20:54] Yeah.

Nathan Hinckley [02:20:55] So that is lying.

John Dehlin [02:20:56] Yeah.

Nathan Hinckley [02:20:57] So I'm, now I'm dealing with this man that I, you know, if you would have asked me three years ago, name one person you'd love to meet from the past, hands down, Joseph Smith, no questions asked. I mean, I loved the stories and I love the guy. And now I'm starting to find this stuff out, and I'm starting to realize that Truman G. Madsen, he knew all of this stuff, but he didn't say these things that are, you know, he

John Dehlin [02:21:28] left those out of his, he left

Nathan Hinckley [02:21:30] those out of his tapes.

John Dehlin [02:21:31] Yeah, but also you're learning that the church hid stuff or misled you, and also that Todd the Apostate knew more than you about it, about your own church.

Nathan Hinckley [02:21:44] And so I pick up the phone.

John Dehlin [02:21:46] What was that like?

Nathan Hinckley [02:21:47] That was devastating. So I pick up the phone and my first phone call was to Nathan, the other bishop I just told you

John Dehlin [02:21:55] about, the one who had left earlier.

Nathan Hinckley [02:21:56] Yeah. And I, and I said, dude, what is going on? And he's like, what do you mean? And I said, I'm starting to see some stuff here, and I think you and I might need to talk. And I was at work and he, we just barely started to scratch the surface and my wife showed up, up. And I was like, oh, my gosh, dude, I got to go, because I hadn't told her yet either. I was like, he, he says, so Amy doesn't know anything? I was like, no.

John Dehlin [02:22:29] So

Nathan Hinckley [02:22:32] I find, right after that, I find a chance to talk to Amy. And I said, you know, I, I, I just read about this thing, you know, with Fanny Algeria, and I start to explain this story that I'm hearing, which is on, which is on the church website.

John Dehlin [02:22:52] And the story, the basic 10 second version.

Nathan Hinckley [02:22:54] So the basic 10 second version is that she was a, she was a helper in the house, you know, teenage girl, young teenage girl. And that she was. That Joseph and her were caught in the barn in a compromising situation. And, and that there Was there were excommunications that happened over this.

John Dehlin [02:23:23] Accused Joseph of adultery. Who rightly accused Joseph of adultery. He was excommunicated.

Nathan Hinckley [02:23:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:23:29] Yeah.

Nathan Hinckley [02:23:29] So I start to tell. Tell her this story. Well, her face goes numb, and she's like, I already know this story. Well, she had come across it, I think, when I was on my mission doing some research on something for her schooling, and she was. She brought it to some of her leaders or whatever, and she was assured that it was anti Mormon. Lies. Don't worry about that. There's nothing to that. And I'm like, honey, it's on the church website. Like, you could pull this up. They're saying it. It's true. And we're just. Oh, my gosh, we are just. Just starting to scratch.

John Dehlin [02:24:13] Was she concerned or was she just believing?

Nathan Hinckley [02:24:18] There was not much time where we were not on the same page. Like, as soon as I kind of said that, she's like, I already know this story.

John Dehlin [02:24:26] And she was disturbed by it.

Nathan Hinckley [02:24:28] She was disturbed to find out that it was true because she was assured that it wasn't it.

John Dehlin [02:24:33] Yeah. And so she's feeling betrayed like you.

Nathan Hinckley [02:24:36] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:24:37] And

Nathan Hinckley [02:24:41] another few days went by. I called that Nathan, that same Nathan back. I said, hey, I talked to my wife, and we're on the same page. I said, but where do I go from here? And he says, look, all I can tell you is I listen to podcasts. And he says, have you ever heard of this or that? Mormon stories was one of them. I said, no. You know, and he says, good place. He says, it's a good place to start and just, you know, go where. Wherever your interest takes you. So, yeah, I. I remember exactly where I was and what I was doing, what I was working on when I heard some of these first podcasts of

John Dehlin [02:25:24] Mormon stories,

Nathan Hinckley [02:25:27] like the Donna Show, Walter. That one for me was just, you know, she was wrestling with this situation of trusting the prophets. She had the interaction with Holland.

John Dehlin [02:25:45] Yeah.

Nathan Hinckley [02:25:46] And she wanted him to bless her son who.

John Dehlin [02:25:49] Who was gay.

Nathan Hinckley [02:25:50] Who was gay.

John Dehlin [02:25:50] And basically,

Nathan Hinckley [02:25:53] you're in a problem. You're in. You're. You're an apostle, you know, you're telling me this is a sin.

Kayli Hinckley [02:25:58] He needs to be fixed.

Nathan Hinckley [02:25:59] You know, cure him. And him saying, I can't do, you know, just an amazing. I love that one.

John Dehlin [02:26:07] Yeah.

Nathan Hinckley [02:26:08] And then definitely took some notes somewhere here. Oh, the Tom Phillips and Hans Motson Matson, whatever it was.

John Dehlin [02:26:17] Second anointing.

Nathan Hinckley [02:26:18] Oh, my gosh. That just floored me to hear how this. You know, I had Heard I had heard of this second anointing. Calling in election made sure I had heard these rumors. And we, we used to, on my mission, if we wanted to break the rules, we would find someone's edition of Mormon doctrine and read about it, about the second anointing. So I, I had sort of heard of these things. I won't jump ahead, but Kaylee, that was one of the things she was really disturbed with. Later on to find out what is this? You know, like she called it a good old boys club. It's like this is just a, a good old boys club where, you know, or so. Yeah. Tom Phillips interview. I remember exactly what I was doing. I was like, I cannot believe what I'm hearing. And he just seems so honest and sincere. And that's what kept striking me. Like I was taught that this anti Mormon stuff was evil and you know, was the pitchforky stuff that people were yelling. And it's like, no, these are honest, good, sincere people. And I believe what they're saying. And so I start having this major struggle. Like Haley's wedding's coming up, Ethan's. They're about to. I've got three boys, you know, younger than her. Missions are coming up and I'm starting. I was like in a, in a. I didn't know where to go. You know, I was. I much like Kaylee, obsess about anything.

Kayli Hinckley [02:27:57] I do.

Nathan Hinckley [02:27:59] If I'm into whitewater, kayaking, that's all I think about. If I'm into, you know, some construction job that I'm doing, that's all I think about. Well, I obsessed with it. I'm like this, this is blowing my mind. Like I need to know. I need to know what is true, what I've been lied to about. And so I just, it was non stop. I mean I, I couldn't sleep, I wasn't eating, I was obsessing. And I'm just trying to get all my, all my. Because this time of my life, it's, it's kind of a fog, you know.

Kayli Hinckley [02:28:43] What's the time frame? Particularly on this like acute phase of just not eating, not sleeping. Like clearly just really disruptive to your life. How long is this lasting?

Nathan Hinckley [02:28:57] So, okay, so this goes on for a good few weeks, three or four weeks, until we finally get to where we, we are. We say we, we need to talk to Kaylee because she's planning her wedding. She's got this brand new newly baptized boyfriend, fiance. So we're like, we're gonna have to talk to Kaylee. And so I Told. I tell her to come by my job. My wife's there with me, and. Shoot. So we sit in my truck. I'm in the driver's side. She's. Her and Ethan are in the back. My wife's in the passenger side. I just start bawling. I'm just for it. It felt like 30 minutes, but maybe it was five or 10. I just. I couldn't say anything. And she's like, what is going on?

John Dehlin [02:29:57] Right?

Nathan Hinckley [02:29:58] And I'm like, finally, I think she says, are you and mom getting a divorce?

John Dehlin [02:30:05] Because she had. Why? Why, Kaylee? Why is that what you went to?

Margi Dehlin [02:30:08] Well, because there's. I mean, he's in shambles. I've never seen him cry before, like, where there seems to be something wrong. Like, I've seen him, you know, get emotional in church or whatever. I don't know. The picture of them sitting, like, apart. The fact that we were sitting in the truck. Like, there was this weird kind of divide between them. I was like, are you. I don't know. Like, there's. There's. That's all I can think of. He said, no, not getting divorced. I said, okay. Like, my next thing is, did you gamble away all of your money? Like, I'm going through the things that, like, maybe the church would not be okay with. I'm like, okay, divorce. Maybe he cheated or.

John Dehlin [02:30:43] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:30:44] Yeah. Or gambling. That's not good either. Are you drinking coffee? Like, I don't. Gambling was the next thing. I was like, I have no idea what's going on right now.

Nathan Hinckley [02:30:52] So finally I get myself together and I say, it's about church. She's like, and I said, and. And I've said this a thousand times since then. I don't think the church is what we thought it was. And she immediately puts up her blockers that we taught her.

Margi Dehlin [02:31:16] Yeah, it was my turn to be crying. I cried for, like, before even getting any words out. I was in tears for a couple of minutes and then said, you know what I'm thinking? I'm thinking exactly what I'm supposed to be thinking. That even in the last. In the last days, even the most elect will be deceived. And I think that might be what's going on right now. Before he even gets any other words out. Like.

Nathan Hinckley [02:31:43] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:31:44] Before he lists anything out, before he tells me any of his reasons, it's that mind control coming back into play.

Nathan Hinckley [02:31:51] So then I finally say, well, just let me share some stuff that I've kind of found out. And one of the things that bothered Me the most was regarding the Book of Mormon. And I feel like even, even to this day that the. The correlation between the late war and the Book of Mormon and how there's so many, so many phrases and things that match in both books. To explain what I mean, in Tennessee we're known as the Vols. Have you heard that? Tennessee Volunteers. Okay, well, that comes from the war of 1812 where they were. They asked for people to serve. And this war. Well, in the late war, it's a

John Dehlin [02:32:48] book that Joseph Smith had access to.

Nathan Hinckley [02:32:50] The late war, which is a book that Joseph Smith had access to. There's terminology that matches 2000 Hardy Men, like 2000 Stripling warriors who fought with dauntless courage in the late war in the Book of Mormon, who were valiant for courage in the late war. They were a small band of hardy men in the Book of Mormon. They were a little band of young men who fought desperately in the late war who fought most desperately. I'm starting to show Kaylee, like there's. And if you, you can spend an hour looking at all of these things, I'm like, it matches identically all of these three and four word phrases with the Book of Mormon.

John Dehlin [02:33:41] I'm just starting to show her that and plot structure. But also it's in King James English.

Nathan Hinckley [02:33:47] I mean, there's.

John Dehlin [02:33:47] So the.

Nathan Hinckley [02:33:48] These.

John Dehlin [02:33:48] And it came to pass is sort of like language. It's that you could pick passages from the late war, read it to a Mormon, and they would think you were reading them the Book of Mormon.

Nathan Hinckley [02:34:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:34:02] Fair. Is that fair?

Nathan Hinckley [02:34:03] Oh, absolutely, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:34:04] Yeah.

Nathan Hinckley [02:34:04] I mean, since then, I've. I've studied it a lot more and, and, but at the time, I'm just starting to show her, like, these problems. And so for me, the Book of Mormon was one of the major first problems, the polygamy stuff also. But I don't even know that we got into polygamy during that.

Margi Dehlin [02:34:24] I think you had. He asked me, did you know about Joseph's polygamy? And at some point someone has told me because I was not caught off guard by that. I was like, I think I recall that at some point somewhere. But it's. No, it was never a lesson. And it wasn't like, it was just enough to inoculate me to not be, like, shocked out of, like, him saying that I wasn't scared to death. But I never, I never got a lesson in it in. In seminary or never got any names. Like it was Emma and Joseph. Like, that's all that I ever knew about. But I have heard at some point that he was a polygamist for the reasons that everyone gives, that there were a lot of dead Mormon men and. And too many women with. Without husbands that needed to protect them and.

John Dehlin [02:35:11] Which isn't true.

Margi Dehlin [02:35:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:35:12] There are more men than women.

Margi Dehlin [02:35:14] Yeah. But that was the reason I was given at some point in some class.

John Dehlin [02:35:19] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:35:19] Yeah.

Nathan Hinckley [02:35:20] So basically, I dropped this bomb on Kaylee, and we were so. We were just so out of our minds that we felt like we needed to get away for a little bit. So we went to my friend's house in Miami, took the boys, and left Port Kayla.

John Dehlin [02:35:42] Here.

Margi Dehlin [02:35:43] I've remembered now, it was my spring break, but I had work, so I couldn't go, technically.

Nathan Hinckley [02:35:48] So we go to the beach and we show up at his house, and as soon as we get there, hey, we're here. The missionaries showed up, like, right behind us. Now, as a Mormon, to me, everything means something. Right? There's. There's hidden, you know, like the Lord's talking through all these different. Well, all of a sudden we get there, and I'm like, oh, maybe this. Maybe this means, you know, the. The. The church is, you know, true, or maybe I'm making a mistake and this is God's way to tell me. So I'm. I'm just kind of waffling a little bit. Like, I know what I know now. But. So anyways, we spend a week there, and we don't talk a whole lot with you or whatever. I don't think that time. But that gave you kind of permission to just. I'm going to look at stuff on my own.

Kayli Hinckley [02:36:41] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:36:41] And it was a week, seven days or so of me alone, finally given permission to look at the things I was not allowed to look at. And it was. Whereas they had each other to kind of talk and they had the missionaries show up. It was me alone in. In this house for seven days. With podcasts, I think I maybe slept an hour or two, but it was 24 hours of a year of polygamy and of Mormon stories. And it was because I never had a shelf. It was bookshelves of beliefs that were just disintegrating with every minute that ticked off of the YouTube videos. And it was just. It's hard to even. I mean, it's hard to describe unless you've actually lived it. It just. Is everything falling out from beneath you all at one time?

John Dehlin [02:37:46] It's often called in our culture, going down the rabbit hole. Right. I guess that's an Alice in Wonderland reference. I'm not sure, but. So you. I mean, I'm just thinking now that. I'm thinking about you finding this out from your dad in the context of, like, going years, both converting your boyfriend, but, like, living the church standards in such an extreme way, and all the perfectionism you had battled for so many years and having such sort of a orthodox father, and you're engaged. I. I just. I'm trying to imagine what that was like for you.

Margi Dehlin [02:38:29] It's. I know people, they come on and they say, I'm the same person. I'm like, I wish my family could just see that I'm the same person. But for me, I was one person. The Sunday I went to church, I did all the things. It was once one person this Sunday, and by the next, I was completely different. Like, I understand why people think that the devil has got me or whatever the other explanations are for it. It was such a rapid. Like, that version of me just doesn't exist anymore. She died.

John Dehlin [02:39:12] How did you change?

Margi Dehlin [02:39:19] It's. My life was built on all of those rules, all of those expectations. I was doing things to meet goals, and then I would feel satisfied for a minute, and then I was on to the next thing. And it's like, within this week. I don't have to get married if I don't want to get married. I don't have to be a mother if I don't want to be a mother. And I don't have to pray if I don't want to pray. And all of these things that were foundational to who I was becoming, I just. Like there was nothing. There was. And so how did I change? I mean, I just think the church made up that version of me. Like, it was. It was everything. It was every decision that I made. It was the clothes that I put on. It was. I don't know. Yeah, I do feel like a completely different person. I don't know.

Kayli Hinckley [02:40:22] Yeah. Stephen Hasson talks about it as. Like, when you're in this really high demand religion, cult scenario, that really it is a personality created by the cult. It is the cult personality that it is slowly assembled over time through conditioning and through, you know, these. These beliefs that are built that then create decisions. And so it makes so much sense to me. And. And then that. That tremendous loss of identity and then the dissociation where you're like, you know, this idea of. Right. How do you. How do you go about rebuilding when you're at such a loss for who you are? And did you feel that?

Margi Dehlin [02:41:09] Yeah. And those, those. That week that Week long period was I think just a panic attack the entire time. Like, I remember I listened to one of your episodes where I can't remember her name, but she had said, the only thing that I know in this moment of deconstruction is that the mountains exist. And like that's how she, that's how she grounded herself. So I would climb out my bedroom window and just lie on the roof and look at the mountains because she's right. Like that's all that exists right now. And like that was the only way that I, that spinning that I was talking about earlier, that was the only way that I could like make it stop was like, I don't know anything. I like everything that I have based everything on literally doesn't exist.

John Dehlin [02:41:58] Was it happy? Was it sad? Was it terrified?

Margi Dehlin [02:42:04] It was relief. It was.

John Dehlin [02:42:06] Why relief.

Margi Dehlin [02:42:07] It was, it was, it was. I was tired for so long that when I realized that it was all made up, that there was an element of I don't have to live up to anything. But then there's also all of this work that I've done that hasn't meant anything. It's, I've been, I've never said a cuss word. I've never drunk alcohol and none of this matters. It's. I don't. It's, it's, it's terrifying. It's, it's every science class that I've ever sat through and history class that I've ever sat through. I've molded it around Mormonism.

John Dehlin [02:42:57] Kind of the Mormon worldview.

Margi Dehlin [02:42:58] Yes. Everything. Whereas now I have to stop and recontextualize everything. Everything.

John Dehlin [02:43:06] Because science and history are very different outside of a Mormon lens. Right? Yeah. So when Todd goes to Nathan years before or Lindsay and Nathan's just like, speak to the hand, you know, go away. I'm not doing this. You could. Lots of Mormon girls, young women in your situation could have very much responded even to their parent. Like Nathan responded to his sister and brother in law. In other words, to say, well, dad, you're crazy. I'm cut. You're, you're going dark. I'm cutting you out of my life. You're going to be on the sidelines of my wedding. I'm mad at you. How dare you do this? And probably more Mormons than not in your situation would go the other direction, become more faithful, become more devout, cut their parents out of their life if they needed to, and basically just become more orthodox. Do you have any idea why you did, number one, have more anger at your dad. More resistance to your dad and why you didn't double or triple down in your commitment, as so many Mormons normally

Margi Dehlin [02:44:20] would if there had been any opportunity to. Like, I just feel like when he showed me the late war comparisons to the Book of Mormon, I had just come from a class where I'm writing papers and trying not to get flagged for plagiarism. And like, I'm finally. I looked at this and I think I said to him, oh, so he just. Just copied it. Like, he just made it up.

John Dehlin [02:44:43] Joseph Smith plagiarized the Book of Mormon.

Margi Dehlin [02:44:46] I know there's people that disagree or whatever, but it's just. It was the first thing that my critical thinking kicked in that I hadn't been ever able to apply to church. And all of a sudden it's like, okay, well, what about this? And what about this? Like, while he's showing me different things, I'm like, finally given the permission to not have my mind controlled by Mormonism and.

John Dehlin [02:45:14] And it evaporated for you that quickly.

Margi Dehlin [02:45:17] We. We went to eat. Ethan and I went to eat after. Because that, that conversation was. I was starved afterward and I was already figuring out what to say to the bishop. I. And it's not because I didn't have a testimony. Like, I don't know how to explain it. I haven't known how to explain it to my family. Like, I was in. But you can't show me these things and expect me to ignore them as much as I would like to it. Listening to the stories on Year of Polygamy. You cannot ask me to discount every single one of these women and just go with the narrative that is being pushed. You can't. It's just impossible. It is literally impossible for. It was impossible for me at that point and is still impossible to go back. And it's like breaking a glass into a trillion pieces and trying to tape it all back together. It's not possible. It wasn't possible.

John Dehlin [02:46:22] And it's not possible because you had such a literalistic, absolute, totalitarian mindset, which some would say can be fragile because once, you know, once an opposing force comes up against glass, it shatters. It sounds like it just shattered in an instant. Once you opened your mind to evidence.

Margi Dehlin [02:46:46] Yeah, and. And it did. And, and you can't tell me that how I was living before wasn't truly Mormon. You can't tell me that I wasn't fully in. And you can't tell me that I didn't have testimony or that you wanted to sin or that I wanted to sin like so many people have tried to do. It just. It's either true or it's not.

John Dehlin [02:47:06] And for you, the evidence was overwhelming.

Margi Dehlin [02:47:08] It was immediate. And there is just too much. There's just so much. There's just so much to be found that it just keeps coming. And I've probably not even gotten to all of it.

John Dehlin [02:47:21] What about the process of just anger that your parents raised you in this, and now they're telling you it's not true after raising you in it. You could be angry about that. Even if you believe it, that it's not true anymore, still be angry that they put you in this situation.

Margi Dehlin [02:47:38] Yeah, they were lied to for 20 more years than I was.

John Dehlin [02:47:42] So you just felt like you immediately concluded they were victims just like you.

Margi Dehlin [02:47:46] I went to church the next Sunday, and I still took sacrament because my dad blessed it. And I said that if anyone has the power of God, it's him. Whether or not any of this is true or any of it means anything.

Kayli Hinckley [02:47:57] I.

Nathan Hinckley [02:47:57] They asked me to bless the sacrament. I just did a podcast about this the other day, but bawled all the way through it.

John Dehlin [02:48:05] I mean, why'd you ball?

Nathan Hinckley [02:48:08] Because I didn't believe it anymore.

John Dehlin [02:48:10] And I.

Nathan Hinckley [02:48:10] They. They were like, hey, we need you. And so what I was going to say a second ago, we're at the beach, we're trying to figure out, well, she's. She's getting way ahead of me.

John Dehlin [02:48:22] Because you weren't trying to get her out of the church, right?

Nathan Hinckley [02:48:24] No, I was just like, you were

John Dehlin [02:48:26] ready to leave the church yet, right?

Nathan Hinckley [02:48:27] No, Yeah, I didn't. And so we hadn't even told our three boys or our sons, like, any of this. They. They were signed up for FSY that summer. There were about as soon as we got back from the beach, they were going off to fsy. And so we.

John Dehlin [02:48:43] That's a youth camp, a summer youth camp for Mormon boys.

Nathan Hinckley [02:48:47] So we get home, and Sunday would roll around, and we'd get the boys up, and we. We were kind of like, I don't know. We. We need to. We need to keep going to church, you know, for the boy's sake. So we go to the beach and have a little time to think. We get back, and we kind of had decided maybe to try to still go to church, maybe try to find a nuanced view that we did not have before. And so what started happening was Sunday morning would roll around and Miss Perfect over here. We would say, hey, you know, we're going to church. And of Course I got three boys and we all know the difference in boys and girl. You know, like, my boys are great. They're also great, but they're boys. Right. And so it's like, wait, Kaylee's not going to church? Why is it, why doesn't Kaylee have to go to church? Why do we have to go to church? You know, it started to be this contention in the family because they don't know why we haven't talked to them at this point. They're just like, why isn't Kate. Why doesn't Kayli have to go? So every Sunday morning is like, not good.

Telling Kayli the Church Is Not True

John Dehlin [02:50:07] And just to be clear, when you tell Kaylee that you don't think the church is true anymore, it might be inexplicable to never Mormons. You weren't wanting her to leave the church and you weren't even necessarily at the point of deciding if you wanted to leave the church. Right, Right. And someone asked, why didn't you just keep it from her? Because then that reduces the complexity. She can get married, she can do the temple. Like a lot of, I know parents that go 20 years keeping from their children that they don't believe anymore because they just say, well, it's a good place to raise your kids. I don't want to disrupt their lives. I don't know of a better path. So I'm just gonna like fake it and not tell my kids. And, and some parents go their whole lives that way. I guess that's a two part question. Why couldn't you do that? Just hide it and fake it? And then secondly, why, why weren't you just like trying to get her to leave the church and you wanting to leave the church too? Because you weren't. Right?

Nathan Hinckley [02:51:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:51:18] So that's a two part question.

Nathan Hinckley [02:51:20] It's actually really easy though, because I have always attended the church because I thought and believed and knew that it was true. It wasn't a country club, it wasn't a good place to be. And I was always outspoken and very, you know, very wear my heart on my sleeve. And I am who I, who I appear to be. And so no, there was no chance that I was going to fake it or anything like that. That's, that's just not. I can't do that. However, the other part of the question, you know, I also wasn't sure that I was ready to leave. Like, I didn't know, you know, we kind of got to, to, to Florida. There's the missionaries, I'm chatting with them and I just Remember saying, I'm so Mormon. Like, everything about me is so Mormon Mormon. So I just did not know. And so I'm in this. This space of wondering if I screwed up by even talking to her, you know, because she's. She's took the ball and she's running with it. You know, she knew. Knew exactly where she was going, but she kind of left. Left us behind a little bit, and I start really worrying about that. But also, I'm learning more. I'm more podcasts and CS Letter and all of these things, and I'm just like. But it's not true. And I have this internal fight. This is the time that I was alluding to earlier that I'm not eating, I'm not sleeping. I. I have, in the first time in my life, what I now know is like a panic attack or what's the other word? A. I'm losing my mind, and I end up in the emergency room.

Kayli Hinckley [02:53:19] Are you thinking nervous breakdown?

Nathan Hinckley [02:53:20] Nervous breakdown. Yeah, I'm just. And I, you know, I. I thought I was dying. I mean, I've tried to explain how I felt, but I. It's hard to.

John Dehlin [02:53:32] You admitted yourself to an emergency?

Nathan Hinckley [02:53:34] Yeah, I. I went down to the emergency room. I go in, I'm like, I'm losing my mind. They're like, what'd you do? You know, they're thinking I've overdosed on something. You know, they're hooking me up to all these wires and.

John Dehlin [02:53:45] Were you suicidal?

Nathan Hinckley [02:53:47] I was not, no. I've never been suicidal, but it was. I thought I was dying. Like, my heart was racing. Like, I was. My mind was racing, my heart was racing. I get over there, and I'm like, I just need something to calm down. And they thought I had overdosed. So they run all these tests, and they come back an hour later. They're like, dude, you're clean. Like, I know I'm clean. I've never touched anything. Of course I'm clean.

Margi Dehlin [02:54:15] Of course.

Nathan Hinckley [02:54:15] He didn't know what was actually going on.

Kayli Hinckley [02:54:18] You were like, I'm clean. Can you give me drugs and calm me down?

Nathan Hinckley [02:54:23] And so he did. He gave me something. I have no idea. Idea what it was. And I think he.

Kayli Hinckley [02:54:28] He.

Nathan Hinckley [02:54:28] He says, hey, if he does this again, told my wife, give this to him. Well, it actually happened again. I went sometimes.

John Dehlin [02:54:34] Benzodiazepine.

Nathan Hinckley [02:54:36] I don't know. I don't know.

John Dehlin [02:54:37] They give you a benzo.

Nathan Hinckley [02:54:39] And a few days later, I ended up Xanax. Yeah, I honestly don't know. I went back, but the second time I didn't go in. I paced the parking lot. I was like, okay, just take me back home. So I was just losing my mind.

John Dehlin [02:54:52] Wow.

Nathan Hinckley [02:54:53] And my wife took a picture of me in there. I'll. And I. It's been. I. I shared it with you on the last time. But it's. It's pitiful. I mean, just looking at me, I can just see.

Margi Dehlin [02:55:07] Just.

Nathan Hinckley [02:55:08] I was, I was a pitiful person. You know, everything that I thought I knew, I didn't know, but I wasn't. Now, I wasn't totally sure what I needed to do. She was. Was sure what she wanted to do. She was well on her way of getting out of church. And so, yeah, it was terrible time. Well, I keep learning and I keep watching and listening to podcasts. Well, I finally find my voice to start speaking out. I start writing Facebook posts. And I have never been a writer. I have writers in the family, I have songwriters in my family, but I have never had that outlet. And all of a sudden people start sharing like, oh my gosh, I love what Bishop Hinckley or whatever says. And it's like, really? It felt great. Like, you, you like what I'm writing?

John Dehlin [02:56:03] What types of things were you posting?

Nathan Hinckley [02:56:07] Can I share a little, A little snip?

John Dehlin [02:56:08] Yeah.

Nathan Hinckley [02:56:09] All right. I just found this. This is, you know, I have a professional rider right by my side, but this is the type of thing, and I think that it comes across very mild. Okay. I called this 8 verses 45. I said, in my church, an 8 year old who still believes in Santa wets the bed and probably can't say his Rs can make an eternal covenant that will be binding and beneficial not for a few years or a hundred years, but for all time and eternity. There is no objection to this eternal ordinance, but rather it is expected that this will happen during his eighth year. If it does not happen while eight, the family is punished by making the child go through the missionary lessons as a typical investigator would, the 8 year old is fully capable of making this decision. On the other hand, a 45 year old man who has spent a year or two in deep study, cross referencing, searching and verifying and weighing the evidence is misled, misguided or deceived. If he comes to a different conclusion regarding the truth claims of this church, the 8 year old will likely share his testimony soon after his baptism in church. While repeating the words his father, his parents whispers in his ear, I know the church is true. The 45 year old would likely be asked to sit down or escort it out if he shares what he believes to be true. So he starts a Facebook page instead. You know, just these kind of. Like, this does not make sense. Like topic after topic in. In a respectful way. But, like, this is how I feel. So let's just start posting stuff like this.

John Dehlin [02:58:02] That's what Todd and Lindsay didn't do, right?

Nathan Hinckley [02:58:04] Right. Yeah, they didn't do that and I did.

John Dehlin [02:58:07] I'm.

Nathan Hinckley [02:58:08] I can't fake it. So, you know, that continued for a while of just new topic, you know, new podcast that I'm studying a lot of the LDS discussions.

John Dehlin [02:58:24] So you can't fake it, but you can just go away quietly in theory.

Nathan Hinckley [02:58:30] Yeah. Just leave it and leave it alone,

John Dehlin [02:58:32] as believing Mormons would love us to do. Why couldn't you leave it and leave it alone?

Nathan Hinckley [02:58:38] After standing up in Baptist churches and calling out preachers and preaching in Argentina on the streets and. And going around the mission or going around the stake on the high council and speaking in church and testifying that I know these things are true. Like, I felt like I have the right to. As a member, as a still, you know, as a member to speak out about these things. That.

John Dehlin [02:59:05] Right. But did you feel like you had a duty?

Nathan Hinckley [02:59:09] Yeah, Yeah, I did. I felt like to. Just to set the record straight. So that's what I started to do. And that started to cause a lot of waves until.

John Dehlin [02:59:21] Did you run to Lindsay and Todd and say I was wrong?

Nathan Hinckley [02:59:24] Oh, my gosh. Yeah. So I. Actually, I'll have to back up just a little bit because I texted. This was after I talked to Nathan, my other bishop friend. They were my next call. And I probably should have said that. I should have said that earlier. I texted Lindsay on April Fool's Day 20 of two years ago. So 23. And I said, lindsay, I'm sorry for the way I treated you when you left the church. And she said, oh, my gosh, I think I know what this means. And I said, I've been at the lowest of lows, you know, but I've now have learned some things and we need to talk. And she says, oh, my gosh. And what. Here's what she didn't do. She didn't say I told you so or anything like that. She said, I'm so sorry. This must be so hard for you. Do you need to talk? So, yeah, I. I did. I should have mentioned that earlier. That was. That was my first call. My. After talking to Nathan and. And finding out what is going on, then I had to apologize. But anyway, so I start speaking out about the church. The stake President eventually wants to talk to me. And so I took a picture and said, this is me on my way to talk to the Stake President. And I posted it on the Mormon Stories podcast page. And that's when you saw the picture and said, hey, you want to talk about this?

Kayli Hinckley [03:00:59] So.

Nathan Hinckley [03:01:01] Okay. So she pretty immediately removes your name.

John Dehlin [03:01:06] Right.

Margi Dehlin [03:01:07] So I think it was that next Sunday, I. Well, to go back a little bit, he. He had said he felt like I had just left. Kind of left them in the dust. But I remember saying to my mom when you all had gotten back that I feel like Dad's thrown me off a train and you all are just keeping on. And she said, don't you dare tell your dad that, because they had just been to the ER and I didn't

Nathan Hinckley [03:01:30] know all of that.

Margi Dehlin [03:01:32] So I'm spiraling. He's spiraling. But I go to church that Sunday and I tell the bishop I need to be released from my calling. I've seen a lot of these things that I. I don't think there are answers for, and I need some time. And he didn't know about any of it. And he said, are your doubts worth your salvation? And I took a minute to compose myself, and in my head, it was just this. It sealed the deal. It was, this is not. This is not right. This is not true.

John Dehlin [03:02:06] What was wrong with that response?

Margi Dehlin [03:02:08] My salvation I did not think was ever in question. Like, I didn't even. I never throughout this entire thing. Like, we don't believe in heaven and hell. Like Mormons.

Kayli Hinckley [03:02:17] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:02:18] Like, I didn't know where that response came from. And I realized in the moment that he's scared that my bishop is scared of these things that I've seen and he doesn't know about him and he doesn't want to know about them. And I just realized that he doesn't know and no one else knows. I may. I'm making the right decision.

Kayli Hinckley [03:02:39] He's scared. And there's a little control tactic in there.

Margi Dehlin [03:02:42] Yeah, it was a clarifying.

Nathan Hinckley [03:02:44] And then how long after that meeting was it when you removed your name?

Margi Dehlin [03:02:48] I think we waited a couple months to turn in the paper and we went into him and Ethan and I did, and he didn't. He didn't want to know. He did not. Yeah, we gave him the paper and he did not want to know details.

John Dehlin [03:03:03] Isn't it weird that the Mormon Church doesn't train its bishops and stake presidents about these issues? Isn't it weird?

Nathan Hinckley [03:03:09] Definitely weird.

John Dehlin [03:03:10] 2025 or 2022 or whatever. They've known. I mean, they've known this stuff since B H Roberts had the secret mortal meetings in 1922, or since von Brody released no Man Knows my history in 1945, or since Leonard Arrington opened up the Church history department in 1972, or since the September 6th where I excommunicated 1993. Like, they've known all along. And certainly they knew by 2014, 15, when they've released all the gospel topics essays. But still, to this day, in 2025, these bishops have no clue what's going on. Or stake presidents with their mission, with their board members. Yeah, that was. So that was validating to you, Kaylee, that he didn't.

Margi Dehlin [03:03:55] He didn't know about the essays. He didn't. I think I brought up, you know, Joseph's polygamy and the second anointing. I just threw several things out there just to test the waters, and he did not.

John Dehlin [03:04:08] And to you, that meant.

Margi Dehlin [03:04:09] It meant, like, I already didn't think there were answers. And especially, I mean, I already knew. I mean, my dad was a bishop. I knew going in that he probably wouldn't know. But just for him to fire off the. Like almost like a threat it was. Which. He's a great guy. Like, he. He was scared. That's why I say that he didn't mean that in a. In a. In the way that it came across. But to me, it was just. That's what I needed to hear. Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:04:35] Now, had you sent out announcements for your wedding, engagement announcements or anything at that point?

Margi Dehlin [03:04:42] At that point, we were about to. Because I was making phone calls to the temples to figure out. Because we're in between two, figuring out which one we're gonna go to. So it was. That's why he. I think that's another layer on why he told me, because, I mean, going to the temple is a big deal.

Nathan Hinckley [03:04:59] That's what. That's what part of the weight was. It's like she's about to get married. Do I let her do this with. How can I do that as a loving parent with. In good conscience let her go to the temple knowing what I know? So this huge weight, not to mention boys about to go on missions and things. So the day that she tells me I'm taking my papers into to resign, I list this is just a couple lines from this song. I'm listening to this song on repeat all day long this day. And I just bawled my eyes out this today.

John Dehlin [03:05:36] What's the Song who sings it?

Nathan Hinckley [03:05:37] It's called.

Kayli Hinckley [03:05:42] I want to hug you, friend of mine.

Nathan Hinckley [03:05:48] I'll tell you in a second.

John Dehlin [03:05:49] I can't remember.

Nathan Hinckley [03:05:50] Today I did something I never thought I'd do. A choice.

John Dehlin [03:06:02] It wasn't easy, but I had to.

Nathan Hinckley [03:06:09] All those years together, those cold, lonely nights. I never thought I'd be strong enough to leave it all behind.

John Dehlin [03:06:17] And today.

Nathan Hinckley [03:06:22] I said goodbye to an old friend of mine.

Kayli Hinckley [03:06:30] That's.

Nathan Hinckley [03:06:38] That's what I was thinking. I mean, I knew. I knew it wasn't true, but

Kayli Hinckley [03:06:47] I

Nathan Hinckley [03:06:47] wanted it to be true, you know, So she let out in the family. She really did. And my wife wasn't that far behind her. I haven't taken my name off because I feel like it's my right to speak out. I'm only saying true things. Now, if I start lying on the church or something, yeah, they. They ought to excommunicate me, and maybe they will anyways. But I have only said true things, such as the, you know, the things about the seer stone and all the. You know, just all of the things that church members do not know, that they should know.

Margi Dehlin [03:07:39] Know.

Nathan Hinckley [03:07:39] That's what I've said. But, yeah, I was not looking for a way out. I wanted it to be true. I found out that it wasn't what I thought it was, and it was an old friend. You know, I loved my time at church. Still love the people there. You know, I was bishop to a lot of good people in this area who. I've sat in the bishop's office and gave blessings and cried in counsel and, you know, and the other day I was told by a church member who. Still active. They said, yeah, I just wanted to come give you a hug because all I hear is negative things about you at church anymore, you know, but, yeah, it's an old friend. I mean, great memories, great people, but not what we thought it was. Not what we signed up for.

John Dehlin [03:08:44] Really quick, Mark, you were feeling something. Do you want to say what you're feeling? I'm curious.

Kayli Hinckley [03:08:48] Oh, well, I love myself, like, words. I'm a words person, so. But I also just felt like that was such a poetic way to describe what you're feeling. The choice thing is so powerful because I think for many of us, we feel like our conditioned selves were kind of driving the car.

John Dehlin [03:09:09] Yeah.

Kayli Hinckley [03:09:09] And so it's. It does feel like if. If there is something that is different or even opposite to what we've experienced in the church, it would be conscious choice, actually. You know, So I love that, and I love the friend thing, because I think that is how complicated it can feel. Like you can love a thing and you can realize it's no longer good for you or it's not what it thought. You know, it's just. I feel like these things in life, oftentimes we like it, that binary part of us, we like it to be one thing. But more often than not, it's a lot of things, and oftentimes a lot of things that are paradoxical. They're. They oppose each other. You love it and you feel betrayed by it. You, you know, and I think so. It was just really an apt, beautiful thing to read. That's all.

John Dehlin [03:10:05] Thanks.

Nathan Hinckley [03:10:05] Yeah, that's Joe Nichols. It's an old country song. Old friend of mine, maybe.

John Dehlin [03:10:11] Abusive spouse or abusive parent. You know, you love them, but they've hurt you. Yeah. Or they've deceived you. That's, you know.

Nathan Hinckley [03:10:20] So an interesting thing that happened when I went to talk to the Stake president. I said, I'll come in to talk to you, but I want you to know the things I've. I've been saying online. So I sent him, send it all to him, and I go in and talk to him and we talk for about an hour and a half or two hours. And when I get done, he says, you know what? I think in my opinion, you are in a better place now than you were. As active, as an active, believing member.

John Dehlin [03:10:50] What?

Nathan Hinckley [03:10:51] Yep. And that was, that was the thing that was so surprising because he saw me before and the guy is gold. I'll just tell you, you don't get much better than this family. I mean, they are truly good, good people.

John Dehlin [03:11:05] Was this the bishop you're growing up? No. Okay.

Nathan Hinckley [03:11:12] So he, he, he determines or he can tell that before I was black and white, right and wrong, insufferable. Yep. And now I've learned the hard way of this nuance and, you know, like it's, you know, just a lot more space for people to have their own beliefs and their own ideas. And he. Anyway, his, that was, that's. That was the takeaway. And he, he's heard me talk about this on your podcast last time and on my own. And he's, I've talked to him since. He says, yeah, I stand by that. I think you're in a better place now than you were before.

John Dehlin [03:11:55] More compassionate, more open minded, more loving of people.

Nathan Hinckley [03:11:58] Right. And I saw it in myself. I remember being at the gas station at this time, looking over at a guy, tattoos, getting alcohol and tobacco at the. And just Found, like, a new love. Like, this guy's not a bad person. You know, he's. We're in this together. Like, I just found a new love for people, and that's what it did for me.

How Nathan's Resignation Affected the Wedding

John Dehlin [03:12:30] So, Kaylee, back to you. The title we came up with for this episode was like, my dad ruined my Mormon wedding again. You could have just said, well, I brought my boyfriend into this. It's a good way to live. We're engaged now. We'll just go with it then. Maybe in a few years down the road, figure it out. But why don't we just go ahead and go with the temple wedding and maybe even stay in the church? Because, you know, if it's not true, it's a good way to raise a family. Did that even cross your mind?

Margi Dehlin [03:13:09] I mean, I had Ethan, who grew up going to church. To church and never holding a specific belief, and this was just another one. It was. This is the path that I'm on right now, and it serves me right now. And if it doesn't later, then it doesn't later. And we got to that. It doesn't later quicker than we thought we did. And I'm like, my dad. I just. I wasn't. I. We went to church. I think it was an Easter. An Easter Sunday that came up next or the next weekend, and we went. And it just didn't feel. It just didn't feel good. It just. I. Not that I would go and pretend, but I just don't think I feel comfortable there anymore. And it just doesn't. It doesn't serve me.

Kayli Hinckley [03:13:56] And.

Margi Dehlin [03:13:57] And I got a lot of good things from it. And I'll take a lot of good things with me into whatever comes next. But we had decided that day that it just. It wasn't gonna work. And if it's not true, we're not gonna. We're not gonna subject ourselves to. To it. And also, we don't wanna. I didn't wanna be a poster child for it anymore. I didn't want any good thing that came out of my life to be attributed to.

Kayli Hinckley [03:14:26] How did Ethan respond to. Like, did you have a conversation with Ethan? And what did that look like right after you did your deep dive?

Margi Dehlin [03:14:37] He was very emotional, like, with the conversation with my dad. And, I mean, he had so much hope for this thing and put a lot of trust in me and my family and in it. But of course, there were the little things, the patriarch and. And he wasn't so sure about some things that he didn't voice to me. And Shoved them down because he loved and trusted me. But when my dad came to us with this stuff, it was. I'm glad he was honest with us. And for him, it was. He's not going to go pretend. And as much as I love that church building, because like I said in the beginning, I love places. And I felt so safe there just those last Sundays. I just felt like an intruder. Like they deserve their safe place. And I don't feel safe there. So it's not. It's not for me. It's not for us. And I don't need a church. I don't need. I mean, as much as I miss the people and I've. I've only been reached out to by one person. So it's just like. I don't know, we just don't need that if it's not mutual and it doesn't feel mutual.

Kayli Hinckley [03:15:54] You're making me think of just how strange it is and interesting to observe those times in life where you're living your life and something either happens to you or you have an experience. Right. And it literally changes. A loss of someone can be this way, you know, but this is it for you. But isn't it an interesting thing to think about how there are things we live through where almost instantaneously there is this sort of. Yeah, there is this shift. And we are legitimately no longer the same in some really defining way, you know? And that's just what I'm saying as you're vocalizing this change and how you felt about yourself and how even this building that really had a really grounding. It sounds like it was a grounding place for you. And then from one week to the next, it's like totally different. Just it meant something different.

Margi Dehlin [03:17:02] And I still feel this, like this ache to go sit in the pews or whatever.

Kayli Hinckley [03:17:08] It's just.

Margi Dehlin [03:17:10] I could. It just wouldn't be the same. And so it's more of just, I guess, nostalgia, which is fine, but I don't know, just. Things will never be the same. I will never be the same. But I also think I'm a better person now. I like this version of me a lot better than I liked that. Tired and very stressed out and always reaching for something unattainable version.

John Dehlin [03:17:38] You wrote some poems to kind of express some of your perspectives or feelings or reflections. Do you want to.

Margi Dehlin [03:17:46] Yep, I can share those.

John Dehlin [03:17:47] Do you want to share one or two or three of them? Just to give a sense for. And you can feel free to give us background.

Margi Dehlin [03:17:54] Okay, I'll Just read two of them. And yeah, I guess the background is mostly just that I've always been a reader. And when all of this happened, I had that paradigm shift and I marched into my dean's office at my college and I said, I'm changing my major, changing it to English. And I got some pushback from him. I was political science before and he was like, are you sure? I really think you're just changing your major because you're getting married. And I was like, no, I think I'm doing this because it's, it's going to serve my life a lot better. But the last, the last two years in this English program have been also very life changing for me and very eye opening and have made me a better writer, but they've also just made me a better person. And I've had a lot of what I would consider religious experiences or spiritual experiences in these classes. Listening to these teachers talk about literature and nothing like highbrow, just human humanity and how that shows up in books and poetry and things like that, which made me start writing. And after listening to. I heard you talk about the musket fire talk, I can't. Was it Holland that gave that.

John Dehlin [03:19:24] Yeah, he basically just to give people the background, Jeffrey Holland, one of our most senior apostles, gave a talk at byu, our flagship university, basically encouraging faculty and staff to show more opposition to gay and lesbian Mormons and specifically opposing same sex marriage. And it's something that's devastated his reputation, his legacy, and that caused so many people to leave the church. He also called out and shamed a valedictorian who gave a talk. He came out during his valedictorian speech. Matt Easton came out as gay. And Holland shamed this young man in a really disgusting and violent, abusive way. I don't know how else to say. That's my opinion. So this is named after that talk?

Margi Dehlin [03:20:14] It is. And it was spurred by listening to his talk, but also just thinking about what our family dynamic is now just in our grandparents, and I'll just go ahead and read it. But just to say that talk sort of inspired it, but it's also based on what I see going on in my family currently. But you protect your truth with musket fire Long polished barrels aimed at the descent do not fear they say you were born for this A preordained soldier to fill this battlefield so close your eyes and do not mind the blood when your bullets bury in the chest of a brother, a daughter, a sister, a friend Here, take up your weapon Day after day in the name of your good news, your king of kings, your prince of peace, and plug your ears to block out the sound of your loved ones as they scream for you from behind enemy lines. And ignore as best you can, how this holy wars divide runs straight through your bloodline, pitting father against son, tearing your hard earned eternity in two. And when you're lying in the trenches at Midnight Hollow and haunted by all you've lost, try your best not to question why you're holding a gun or why you've been called to protect your truth with nothing but blazing, mindless musket fire. The tears didn't help with the reading of that, but.

Kayli Hinckley [03:21:50] Oh, I don't know.

John Dehlin [03:21:55] Do you want to say anything else about what you want to say with that poem? Or.

Margi Dehlin [03:21:59] I think if it could be understood through the tears, it speaks for itself. But. But I don't know that anyone will listen to this. That is still true believing, but I just really wish that people could take a step back and actually consider the other side. And that as hard as it is for you, it's really hard for us. And I'll just read one more and that's.

John Dehlin [03:22:34] Is that just about LGBT Mormons?

Margi Dehlin [03:22:37] Not. Not only. It was. It was written for that. And then as I kind of built on it, it was just, just, just in general, we make decisions because we think that they're best for us or because they. Because they're healthy for us. Whether it be your sexual identity or whatever it is. It's just.

John Dehlin [03:23:03] Or getting married in the temple or

Margi Dehlin [03:23:04] getting married in the temple or leaving the church.

Kayli Hinckley [03:23:06] Just.

Margi Dehlin [03:23:07] There's always a second side. And I don't think when you're in the church that you consider it very often. And I wish, yeah, I wish that we would. The other one is Death of Faith. And I actually think dad reads it better than I do, but he's read it on his podcast before, so I'll go ahead. What a shame it is that so many of my ancestors sacrificed so much for a spot in some higher heaven, a heaven stained by lies spewed by white men who vied for greatness and power above all else. Those before me wore the shackles that I've now buried with so much reverence, swallowed the lies down with mouthfuls of sacrament bread and a convicted amen. But what they had wasn't faith coursing through their blood, giving them the strength to lose themselves in their sacrifice day after day. It was fear, the blinding, animalistic kind that eats at you until you're only A husk. And so it makes me wonder if they're proud of me. Proud of me for being brave. Brave enough to break the chain of being enslaved to an eternal perspective. And I. I think that is me just thinking back on

Life After Mormonism and Finding a New Identity

John Dehlin [03:24:25] my

Margi Dehlin [03:24:28] past self and. Hoping that even if my family now isn't proud of me, not, not, not this one. But I don't know that the ones that. The pioneers, the ones that did a lot harder things than I have, I don't know if they're looking, they're watching. I hope that they're proud.

Nathan Hinckley [03:24:54] And then the second part there, the eternal perspective. I've heard her talk about that, how that used to be. That used to be her answer for everything, and mine too. Like, oh, you know, this life might be hard or whatever, whatever you're going through, but keep an eternal perspective. It's the same thing with the celestial. The knot. Think celestial, think celestial. Right. It's. It's. It's all the same idea, which is, don't worry about this life or don't worry about, you know, what's going on. It'll all be worked out, you know, later on, it'll all be worth it. And just giving that up and living life for today and for the people we have around us now and taking advantage of these moments that we have, not worrying so much about this eternal perspective. And it's made so much sense before. I spoke about it all the time from the pulpit, but it's just word. It's just empty words. Like, what's most important is what are you going to do today or this week to love and be with people who cares about the eternities a billion

John Dehlin [03:26:06] years from now when you don't know if you're going to be around? You don't know know.

Nathan Hinckley [03:26:10] Right.

John Dehlin [03:26:11] But you know, you got today, right?

Nathan Hinckley [03:26:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:26:14] That goes from like the infinite string with that teeny, teeny knot. And it's the string that matters, not the teeny, teeny knot to, like, the knot, is it?

Nathan Hinckley [03:26:23] Right?

John Dehlin [03:26:24] The knots, the whole enchilada. Yeah, right. Yeah. It's a total perspective shift. And it's the opposite of what we're taught. Like the Book of Mormon says, woe unto those who say, eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die. But you're saying he drink and be married. Are you? I mean, metaphorically.

Nathan Hinckley [03:26:42] Metaphorically, yeah. Yeah, I am. I mean, that. That's. That's what we know. That's. That's a. That's a given. That's a definite, you know.

John Dehlin [03:26:50] Yeah.

Nathan Hinckley [03:26:50] And I That's part of the pain that I was going through to make that shift. It took some tears and some heartache, but I agree with my stake president. I am in a much better place now. Oh, my gosh. My. My family, my children and their spouses.

John Dehlin [03:27:10] Your immediate family.

Nathan Hinckley [03:27:11] Yeah, we are light years. Like, you could ask my boys, like, do y' all, like, dad better now? Or, like, you know, hands down? Just, you know, I don't want them to make decisions because I. You know, if something I did or I want them to do, like. Like, I'm interested in what they want now. And. And it just really wasn't that to an extent. Yeah. But before, I wanted them to do what the prophet says, and you want missions, and, you know, and it's just. It's different, and it's much better now. My extended family, that's another story. You know, we were. There was no family tighter than our family before.

John Dehlin [03:27:54] Your brothers, your parents.

Nathan Hinckley [03:27:57] And I'm sorry to say that it's strained.

John Dehlin [03:28:03] You know, you've become that family you never could understand. Right. Where you're just not all tight.

Nathan Hinckley [03:28:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:28:11] And connected. That must be heartbreaking.

Nathan Hinckley [03:28:15] It's heartbreaking. You know, we're still young in this. I mean, people deal with this. You guys know better than I do. We're. We're two years into this, so I. I think maybe it'll get better, but it's. It's not been great. So I asked myself. I had. I had a friend the other day that passed away in a car wreck. He. He was a member, but not very active, but still believed it. Well, when I heard of the terrible accident, I went. We don't talk a lot, but we were pretty close. I go to his Facebook page to just. I find out he had unfriended me. And it was hard. You know, it was hard to. To think, wow, like, is this worth it? I mean, I'm losing people that. They don't want to hear what I have to say anymore, so they unfriend me. And I don't blame him. You know, I've unfriended some people, too. It's just. You know, I ask myself, is it worth it? And to be perfectly honest, when I started my podcast, because I went from writing to doing what I like to do more, and that's talking and being with people and interviewing and listening and that.

John Dehlin [03:29:37] It's called the Bishop's Interview, right?

Nathan Hinckley [03:29:38] Yeah, the Bishop's Interview. I. I was doing an episode every night. Like, I was on fire. And since that funeral, A month ago or maybe two months ago now. I don't know. I've just kind of asked myself, you know, is it worth it? You know, losing. Losing friends, losing family relationships, and is

John Dehlin [03:30:07] it worth speaking up?

Nathan Hinckley [03:30:08] Is it worth speaking out? You know, I mean, I, It's. I don't quit. I don't doubt or question, you know, what. The decisions we've made. But I have. I have eased up on the podcast and the posts. I'm decided to. Lately, I've decided to pursue some music stuff. A lot more than I was doing. Like I told you before, I'm a. I'm a kind of a single track mind. Mind, and I get wrapped up in what I'm doing and I, I still plan on doing the podcast, but it's not every night.

Margi Dehlin [03:30:47] And it's also hard when you see, when you slow down with. With the speaking out that your relationship. Your relationships get a little better. And so it's hard to. To see a little bit of, like, healing and then to rip the band aid back off. Even if. Even if it is true what you're saying, even if you do want to be loud, even if it's just hard whenever you're doing a balancing act, every time that you. That you post a video or post something on Facebook.

Kayli Hinckley [03:31:16] So I hear what you're. So is what part of what you're saying the preference that you be silent? Like you can feel what you feel and it can be different, maybe tolerated, I guess on the. But if you speak out, it's like, no, no, no, no, no, no. Feel what you feel, but be quiet about it. Is that kind of what you're saying that you're feeling? Like that's less. Less bad if you're quiet?

Nathan Hinckley [03:31:39] Oh, for sure. No doubt about that. I mean, you know, I have so many friends and family who are still active and, you know, most people don't speak out quite like we have. Most people maybe take a path more like what Lindsay and Todd did. And, you know, I. I say whatever path someone chooses is the best for them. For me, I just. I really needed to. To be true and authentic and to be the same person I was when I was faithful and believing, which I spoke up and spoke out and I was loud and, you know, that's me. And just because I'm on the other side now, I still have to be true to myself. And one thing I've said a lot is I know some people don't like me talking about their church, but I'm not talking about their church. I'M talking about mine. Like, this is what I grew up with. This is what I believe or believed. So I know it. It doesn't. You know, it's hard. But I'm not talking about their church. I'm talking about mine.

Kayli Hinckley [03:32:53] Right.

Nathan Hinckley [03:32:54] So all that to say, I don't know where I want to go. I. I'll always want to.

Margi Dehlin [03:33:00] I'll.

Nathan Hinckley [03:33:00] I'll always be some percent Mormon. And that's what that Nathan had said. And when I interviewed my friend Nathan, he says, I'll always be some percent Mormon. And I think that's probably me. You know, that's my heritage and that's my ancestors, and that's my. So what percent. Maybe it'll be 1 or less than 1%. But yeah.

John Dehlin [03:33:22] Yeah. Just to get personal for just a second, like, we have damaged relationships beyond repair by doing this podcast, and it has caused harm to people we love, both people who've left the church and to people who have stayed. And when I see someone like you start a podcast, there's part of me that wants to be an advocate to promote it so that you can be successful. There's a part of me that says, don't do it. You know, it's. You're gonna. It might. It might hurt you. It might hurt your loved ones, it might hurt relationships. And, like, I don't want to sound like a martyr, but I'm just being honest so often. I think we do this so that you won't have to, because why. Why should you wreck relationships, too, and harm people? Like, you know, let us. We've already. We've already got the burnt, scorched earth. No sense in you having scorched earth, too. You know, And I'm not trying to sound like a martyr, but that's literally what comes to my mind. Mark, you were going to grab the mic for a second.

Kayli Hinckley [03:34:41] I was just gonna say. I mean, part of the challenge, I think, from moving from a binary black and white kind of thinking, living it for years and years and years. So it's so natural to us, right, to kind of think of things that way is this complexity on the other side. And here's the rub is I feel like one of the toughest places to be is in relationship with people, where the thing that you're doing is healing for you. You need it. It's like writing about where you've been and talking about it and making it real and healing the. And bringing people together and trying to create community in this community that you love so much. Right?

John Dehlin [03:35:26] Yeah.

Kayli Hinckley [03:35:27] And trying to create that on the other side, that. That is the very thing that hurts people you love. That's the rub. And we're there in marriage oftentimes, and we're there with extended family, and we're in all sorts of ways, and it's complicated. And all I can say is the reason I think it's healing for so many of us is. Comes down to authenticity and this idea of claiming who we are after organizations have claimed us for themselves, you know, but also, I think it's. It's. I don't know. I also feel like it's a little bit of a new place to say. It's. I get to save myself, too. It's not all about saving other people. Like, sometimes I get to save and do something for myself, too.

Nathan Hinckley [03:36:23] You know, I love that. Can I take one opportunity to thank you two, though? Because I know you've said that there have been relationships hurting. I hope you know how much like what you. What you guys do. You know, the. The blessing it truly is for people like me and my family. We. I mean, you. You are so sincere. And I mean, there's no doubt if. If someone hears you for 20 minutes, they say, these. These people are good, honest people. That's how you come across. That's. That's how you are. And we are thankful. So, yeah, there may be some harm somewhere, but the good you're doing is amazing.

John Dehlin [03:37:18] Thank you. Well, thank you for that. And it's. When I hear a story about. I'll just say the Hinckley family in Knoxville, when I hear that, I mean, why I started Mormon stories, why we started Mormon stories was to help keep families from being torn apart. And in many cases, we do that. But sometimes there's the tearing apart before there's the bringing it back together. And sometimes, you know, obviously, when Lindsay and Todd fell away, that was super hard on them to be isolated from the rest of the entire family. And it hurt those relationships. But now that the. The sweet about y' all falling away or discovering truth is that now you can be allies and supports to Todd and Lindsay. So that's the sweet, but the bitter is now your family's more divided. And I just. I hate the fact that. I mean, that's. If I ever want to call the Mormon church a cult, it's when I know it's dividing families. No religion, especially no religion who bears Christ's name, in my opinion, should be breaking up a healthy, otherwise healthy marriage or an otherwise healthy family. I know that Jesus himself said, I've Come to divide mother from son or husband from wife or parent from child. I know he said that, but I just want to think that was someone else who misquoted him. Because what healthy religion is going to be tearing a loving family apart, Right? I hate it.

Nathan Hinckley [03:39:07] One thing I wanted to make sure I said is Kaylee's. You guys can tell she's a smart, smart girl. If there's anything that I, like, know in the bottom of my soul, it's that she was going to find this path regardless. Like she was even as a teenager, you know, And I'll just say it, in the south, we tend to be pretty far to the right politically and things. And she was starting to find her voice on a lot of things. Just like, well, I don't really believe in that, or that's not how I feel. And I was very far to the right previously. And she was starting to speak out and like, I, I have a voice and this. And I. And so I think that, that it just leads like she was going to find this path, this truth. Had she beat me to the punch with the way that I was before, I'm. I. I cannot really even think about the way I would have treated her. I would have. I know the way I treated my sister. I wasn't great. I was pretty bad. And if she would have found out this isn't true, and this, I mean, I would have. I would have. I don't want to say it. I would have written her off like,

John Dehlin [03:40:44] sorry, you know, so many Mormon parents do.

Nathan Hinckley [03:40:48] So I'm thankful that we were in it together with your all's help and many others, you know, that it went like, it went the way it needed to go. Because if she would have beat me to the punch, I would have been prideful about it. I would have been like, who are you? I've spent my whole life. I can't believe you. I can't believe. You know, I would have probably blamed Ethan, Ethan's pull, you, you know, pulling you away. So it would have been devastating.

John Dehlin [03:41:14] It sounds like, in a way you're grateful to Todd and Lindsay and the other Nathan.

Nathan Hinckley [03:41:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:41:21] Because I don't think it would have happened without them.

Nathan Hinckley [03:41:23] No. And grateful that the church selected me to take a. A random survey on the gospel topic essays, which people still don't know. I mean, most of my Facebook posts have been, hey, people, you know, there's these gospel topic essays. This is what it says. I still have people asking me, what, what are these? Where. Where do you find them?

John Dehlin [03:41:47] Some people Think they're forgeries.

Nathan Hinckley [03:41:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:41:50] Or hackers. Because they don't want to accept what's. Yeah. Well, yeah, I. I remember Lindsay and. And Todd reaching out to me years ago to just tell me what's going on. Years before your stuff happened.

Nathan Hinckley [03:42:10] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:42:12] And, you know, love and. And shout out to. To Todd And Lindsay, the McCormicks, you know, because. Because they're. They kind of being that pioneer that first. Talk about pioneers. Mormons talk about pioneers. When you're the first in your family to venture off, there's a real pioneering price you pay, you know, so shout out to Todd and Lindsay, you know. Right. And to you, Kaylee, you know, and to you, Nathan, and Amy as well.

Kayli Hinckley [03:42:44] And can we have a moment for your poetry? Really?

Margi Dehlin [03:42:48] Thank you.

Kayli Hinckley [03:42:48] Truly, truly beautiful. Thank you for sharing.

Margi Dehlin [03:42:51] Thank you.

Nathan Hinckley [03:42:51] So she. She. She won't tell you, but I will. She submitted three of these to her to a competition of some sort at school. They all won first place, of course. This is. I mean, very, very talented writer. Not even. I mean, she's got books and poems. I mean, she's. She's going places.

John Dehlin [03:43:13] He's your hype man.

Margi Dehlin [03:43:15] He is my.

Reflections, Gratitude, and Closing Thoughts

John Dehlin [03:43:16] Okay, so we teased this episode with kind of the title. My. My dad ruined my Mormon marriage or my Mormon wedding to put a happy end to the story. I get a sense that your wedding wasn't ruined. It was not just your Mormon wedding was. Do you want us to talk about, like, did you end up with Ethan? Was the wedding ruined? Was the wedding better than it otherwise would have been? Let's put a happy end. Let's put a cherry on the. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:43:45] Y. Yeah. No temple plans were made. I would have been right in my assumption that it would have been weird. Ethan would have had an issue with it, and I would have had an issue with it. Because if. What if I had been through the temple, that would have been a nightmare.

John Dehlin [03:44:00] Oh, you. You now know that the temple ceremony would have been a.

Margi Dehlin [03:44:04] That would have. That would have been a nightmare for both of you.

John Dehlin [03:44:07] And Ethan. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:44:08] And Ethan, the hats. It just wouldn't have. It wouldn't have went over well.

John Dehlin [03:44:13] It's still super culty. They're trying to make it less culty, but the templ ceremony is just irretrievably culty. It is.

Kayli Hinckley [03:44:19] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:44:20] And just hearing that growing up and being like, we are not a cult, and then you hear of stories of people sitting there and realizing for the first time that it's a. It just would have been. I'm so thankful that I Did not have to go through the temple with him. But we did get married. We got married in October of 2023. Beautiful wedding. Thank you, dad. Dress was off the shoulder. No garments. That's. That was the main thing. I really, even though I grew up with a garment mindset, I did not want to wear garments. As I got older and I started working outside and I was like, that's not gonna work. So my dress was not garment approved. Still wouldn't be garment approved with the changes. So I'm proud of myself for that choice. But it was great. Ethan's great. He's still great. Even though I flirted to convert, I did flirt to convert and I feel bad about that, but it's okay because we also left together. So it worked out for the better.

Kayli Hinckley [03:45:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:45:14] And I. It wasn't until my adult years that I went to a non Mormon wedding and realized there's so much more fun than a Mormon wedding on average. You know what I mean?

Nathan Hinckley [03:45:22] So I've been to probably 500 weddings.

John Dehlin [03:45:26] 500.

Nathan Hinckley [03:45:28] You do cinematography and you know, I didn't go into this. My story. And maybe we're already past that. But I'll just say that that was. That was like maybe a shelf thing for me because I saw no. Very few Mormon weddings. So almost all, you know, whatever, Baptist or whatever. And I just saw people like coming together of families, like you said, and a fun, joyous occasion. Oftentimes alcohol is involved and which often

John Dehlin [03:46:02] is a good thing, I hear.

Nathan Hinckley [03:46:04] Right.

John Dehlin [03:46:05] Because it helps lubricate and bring people closer.

Margi Dehlin [03:46:08] Right.

Kayli Hinckley [03:46:10] I was gonna say. I was gonna say we've experienced it through Maya's wedding and. Yeah, but then I was like. But not personally, but like we've experienced it in watching it seemed like a lot of, like it was fun for us to be around it.

John Dehlin [03:46:25] So we've heard.

Nathan Hinckley [03:46:26] Yeah, well, you know, I am a kind of off the wall guy. I can do whatever. I don't. I'm not nervous about things. My wife, on the other hand, is very timid, shy, nervous. And you know, in the past two years that we've been deconstructing and things. We spend every weekend that we can doing things we've never done before, like dancing or, you know, just. And she might have a drink or two and she loosens up and she's. She has a great time. You know, there's so many different things that we're just experiencing for the first time. And it's all because we were. We kind of have a new shot at life. So for her, you know, and maybe, maybe it's an anxiety thing. Maybe it could, you know, maybe it could be addressed by various ways. But I've noticed that, you know, a drink or two on. In an outing helps her a lot to relax and have a good time. So, yeah, there's so many different things we could talk about it really. Blessings of the faith crisis. All I can say is life is so much more full, so much. Just so much more authentic. And I love it.

John Dehlin [03:47:45] And Kaylee, I've seen your dad sent me your wedding video this morning. I think your smile reaches your eyes.

Margi Dehlin [03:47:53] It does. If I finally figured out a smile. And it just so happened to be when I left the Mormon church, so.

Nathan Hinckley [03:47:59] And it.

John Dehlin [03:48:00] And maybe go one level deeper because at church or not church, I think there's just something about you, connecting with you. Is that what's deeper than the church? You know what I mean? In terms of what's happened with you,

Margi Dehlin [03:48:15] there was that element of mind control that I keep talking about the thought stopping. And I can identify it now. It still happens and I still feel it. And sometimes it still makes me sick. And sometimes I still question, like, am I making the right decision? And then I stop myself and I go internal and I reflect and I remember all that I've been through and all that I've found out and all that I've studied, because I've studied a lot and I don't doubt myself anymore.

John Dehlin [03:48:46] And when you talked about recontextualizing history and science and your worldview outside of a Mormon lens, where have you landed with all that? That's a big question. But like, do you feel like, how are you enjoying recontextualizing life outside of the Mormon lens? And where, where are you landing with things like morality or spirituality or community or family or education or whatever?

Margi Dehlin [03:49:14] Yeah, I think I. When all this happened, I basically, when I was sending out messages, I was just saying I've always kind of put the Bible below the Book of Mormon. I've neglected it for so long. And it just so happens that when you take a critical look at the Bible, as I did with the Book of Mormon, it is unfortunately sort of the same thing. And I haven't. I don't know that I'm ever going to be able to say that I'm an atheist or that I'm agnostic or like, I just enjoy not knowing. And I, I enjoy listening to the Christian versus atheist debates and they're interesting to me and I enjoy listening and not having to come to a decision at the end of it. And Ethan, Ethan isn't really interested in deconstructing faith like he has with Mormonism. And I'm just at the point where I realize that we don't have to be the same human being because that was stressed so much in Mormonism that you need to be equally yoked and you need to find your eternal companion, that you are, you know, the perfect match or whatever and that you're on the same page with everything. And we just don't. We can be two different people who work really well together and it works like that.

John Dehlin [03:50:41] And so many people value religion for identity, for morality, for community, for spirituality. Are you finding, you know, your own approaches to those things outside of a religion that feels satisfying to you or do you feel like there's big holes, you know, big gaping holes?

Margi Dehlin [03:51:00] Yeah, I don't feel like there's hole like we attend sometimes with his family, a non denominational church. And I like some of the messages and I don't like some of the messages. And I can leave feeling like I had a great time and I can leave feeling like I would have had a, a better time out on the lake or reading a book and. And I don't know, I've not had children and I don't know what I'll do when I do or I don't know what I'll teach them. But I don't necessarily think that as much as I loved my childhood and as much as I did end up enjoying, you know, I like who I am and I like who the guardrails kind of force me to be, but I don't know that they're necessary.

John Dehlin [03:51:43] And so you're enjoying. Do you feel like you're sub significantly enjoying your life more now?

Kayli Hinckley [03:51:50] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [03:51:50] A lot less stress and I don't know, there's just, there's so many more. I remember being like growing up, like in high school, I wasn't really interested in, in science and history because it didn't matter because I knew when I got to the celestial kingdom I would get to learn all of that. I mean, it didn't really matter to me. And now I'm like, no, this is all I have. And I need to watch the YouTube video on ancient Egypt because I might not ever get to learn that while I'm like, you know, there's just, there's so many things that I'm never going to get to or see or experience. And like, like he said, like, this is. This is it, the blip is it?

John Dehlin [03:52:32] And that's Exciting for me.

Margi Dehlin [03:52:34] That is exciting. It's very exciting.

John Dehlin [03:52:35] Isn't that strange? It is strange that some people. It's like, why bother living if there isn't answers to these questions? And others are more excited not having answers that they come alive with. Not knowing. Yeah.

Nathan Hinckley [03:52:52] Yeah, that's. I was going to say the same thing as far as be learning to be okay and excited about saying I don't know. And I've never said I don't know before. I knew everything. I knew all the answers.

John Dehlin [03:53:06] You were so insufferable.

Nathan Hinckley [03:53:08] I taught all the things to the. She was. She's not the only one that converted her. Her boyfriend or sweetheart. So. Our son also did that with his girlfriend.

Kayli Hinckley [03:53:21] We. We.

Margi Dehlin [03:53:21] We were so doing our jobs.

Nathan Hinckley [03:53:24] Who is also married now, too. So, yeah, I taught all the. The missionaries would come over and say, oh, let's just let Bishop Pinkley teach it. He knows all this. So I knew all the answers. Now I don't know hardly anything except I love who I am now. I'm okay with not knowing a lot of stuff, and it doesn't scare me. And other than that, I try to be a good person when I see the homeless guy down the street, because there's this one guy we pass all the time. I stop and give him money about every time I see him now know, and I just. I just love people more. And I don't know. I feel like I agree with my stake president. I'm in a better place.

John Dehlin [03:54:12] And you're closer to Lindsay and Todd, for sure, and that other Nathan guy.

Nathan Hinckley [03:54:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:54:19] All right. Well, this has been such a delight. You know, we always like, oh, we have to go to Knoxville. Do we want to travel? But this is so fun, isn't it? I'm having. I had fun. Yeah. I'm so glad we came out. Thanks for setting up the audio on the video here, cameras in the lighting. Yeah. If any of you need cinematography work done in the Knoxville area. And you're a photographer, too, right?

Margi Dehlin [03:54:46] I'm a photographer, yes.

John Dehlin [03:54:47] You do wedding.

Margi Dehlin [03:54:48] I do weddings, destination weddings. Hey, I will get on a plane. I will. I have just graduated, so I can do just about anything. Yes, y.

John Dehlin [03:54:55] And you do weddings and. Yeah, all sorts of stuff. So if you're kind of in the. Nashville. What? Memphis, Tennessee.

Margi Dehlin [03:55:04] Tennessee.

Nathan Hinckley [03:55:05] Anywhere.

Margi Dehlin [03:55:05] Yep, anywhere.

John Dehlin [03:55:06] All right.

Nathan Hinckley [03:55:07] And she's got the biggest heart. You remember Anna?

John Dehlin [03:55:12] Yeah, yeah, that was.

Nathan Hinckley [03:55:13] That was.

Margi Dehlin [03:55:13] That was Kay.

Nathan Hinckley [03:55:14] That was Kaylee's idea.

John Dehlin [03:55:16] And so, yeah, Anna, our Pentecostal exp. Pentecostal person. Right. That Came on Mormon Stories, who. At the time we interviewed her, her house was just totally decimated, and she. We put a call out.

Nathan Hinckley [03:55:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:55:32] Do you want to tell us?

Nathan Hinckley [03:55:33] Yeah, yeah. So Kaylee says, dad, we've got to help. We find out she lives, you know, a couple hours away. So we scheduled a thing and went out there, and you guys were so gracious to give some live. We sent you pictures, and you. You pod, you know, gave updates on your podcast about it. Well, apparently, she ended up being able to sell her house to some of your previous guests. Guests. So you're doing the Lord's work, y'?

John Dehlin [03:56:00] All. Are we. We just flap our lips. Okay, well, actually takes.

Nathan Hinckley [03:56:05] It takes. It takes us all.

John Dehlin [03:56:07] You helped restore their house?

Nathan Hinckley [03:56:09] Yeah, we. We spent a day out there working, and Kaylee and Ethan.

Margi Dehlin [03:56:12] I did some painting. Yep.

John Dehlin [03:56:14] So. And then. And then. And then their house was purchased. Yeah. That's exciting. I don't want.

Margi Dehlin [03:56:21] Oh, yeah, yeah.

Kayli Hinckley [03:56:24] Okay. We'll just say the Mormon Stories audience is no slouch. Like, it's a community unto itself. And we see that and really appreciate how. I'll just do the third wall. Y' all show up for each other.

Nathan Hinckley [03:56:40] That y' all was. That sounded really good.

Kayli Hinckley [03:56:44] I had some years in North Carolina.

John Dehlin [03:56:49] All right, well, Nathan and Kaylee, thank you so much for being on Warmer Stories. This has been delightful, and again, thanks to Todd and Lindsay McCormick as well for their episode. And we wish love and unity for the Hinckley family. You know, and it may take time, but we hope y' all are all singing and dancing and enjoying each other in and out of the church. We don't care.

Nathan Hinckley [03:57:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:57:18] We just want family unity. And I give my secular blessing to the Knoxville Hinckley that unity is in the future. How's that?

Nathan Hinckley [03:57:28] Yes, I think we're on the right track. There's been some. Some progress recently, so.

John Dehlin [03:57:33] All right.

Kayli Hinckley [03:57:34] All right.

John Dehlin [03:57:35] Thanks, Kaylee. Thanks, Nathan. And thanks, Margi.

Kayli Hinckley [03:57:38] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [03:57:38] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:57:40] All right. Thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories, everybody. Please like and subscribe to this episode. Thanks to our donors that make this possible. Four fifths of our revenue come from donations, not from ad revenue. We don't do sponsorships or anything. Thanks to our donors. If you want to support this type of programming, please go to MormonStories.org, click on the donate button. Become a monthly donor. You can also subscribe to this channel and all the places you can, like, you can comment, you can share, and that all helps if you want to be like these guys and apply to be on the podcast, go to moremorestories.org, click on the application button. Create a three minute video. We will not accept your application without the three minute video. Fill out the application, make the three minute video. Tell us why you think your story would be a valuable contribution to the library. Don't just send us some link to some other video you recorded. Unrelated again it won't make it through and we'd love to hear from you and I'd love to share your story. We always love your feedback@mormonstoriesgmail.com we also read every comment on YouTube and on the blog so please feel free to comment there. And we'd love we'd love to do more trips. Not all the time, but we would love to do more destination interviews. Margaret, why are you laughing?

Kayli Hinckley [03:58:57] No reason.

John Dehlin [03:59:00] Anyway, be good to each other, be kind to each other. Take care and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast. Bye everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.