Introductions and Setting Intentions

John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John De Lynn. It is September 9, 2024. I believe it's Mormon prophet Seer and revelator Russell M. Nelson's birthday. So happy birthday to President Nelson. I'm sure he's watching. We're here today to talk about Mormons React to Secret Lives of Mormon Wives, the new Hulu sensation that just dropped on Friday. We have an all star cast with us today to be talking about that. All of them should be familiar faces to you. We have Alyssa. Are you going by Witbeck?

Samantha Shelley [00:00:43] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:00:44] Alyssa Witbeck.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:00:45] Hello. How are you doing?

John Dehlin [00:00:46] Welcome back.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:00:47] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:00:48] Thanks for joining us. Alyssa, tell us really quickly who you are and what you do.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:00:52] Well, my name is Alyssa Webeck. I am a writer. I also have a TikTok called List, likes words. And I also love reality tv, especially when released to Mormonism. So anybody that's like, who would watch that trash? I do. So that's why I'm very excited to have this conversation today.

John Dehlin [00:01:10] And you have two master's degrees?

Alyssa Witbeck [00:01:11] I do have two master's degrees. So, you know, it's not just people that. Anyway, that's all.

John Dehlin [00:01:17] Okay. Well, we're glad to have you. Thanks for joining us, Alyssa. Also back on the program, my arch nemesis, Samantha Shelley. Hey, Samantha.

Samantha Shelley [00:01:26] Hello, John. With whom I have beef. These guys.

Guest [00:01:30] No beef.

John Dehlin [00:01:30] People don't understand British humor or something.

Guest 2 [00:01:33] Yep.

Samantha Shelley [00:01:34] And that's on me. That's on me for being unlikable. I'm trying to change it. It's a work in progress.

John Dehlin [00:01:39] So no jokes from Samantha today, basically.

Samantha Shelley [00:01:41] We'll see.

Britt Hartley [00:01:41] We'll see.

John Dehlin [00:01:42] Tell us who you are, what you do, Samantha.

Samantha Shelley [00:01:45] I also love reality tv and I'm one half of Zelph on the shelf on YouTube and other social medias.

John Dehlin [00:01:51] Yep. And you're a coach.

Samantha Shelley [00:01:53] Yes, and I also do coaching.

John Dehlin [00:01:55] All right, well, we're glad you're with us.

Samantha Shelley [00:01:57] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:01:58] And finally, last but of course not least, we have the Joining us from a undisclosed top secret bunker somewhere in Boise, Idaho, in Ida County. Is it Ada or Ida County?

Britt Hartley [00:02:11] Ada County.

John Dehlin [00:02:12] Ada County. We have Britt Hartley. Hey, Britt.

Britt Hartley [00:02:16] Hey, John.

John Dehlin [00:02:16] Tell us who you are and what you do.

Britt Hartley [00:02:18] I'm Britt Hartley. I go by no nonsense spirituality online. I'm a spiritual director. I have a master's degree in theology, and I really focus on existential crisis and the void. But also I enjoy reality tv. And there should be no shame about writing your dissertation and talking about smart things. And being educated and also enjoying reality tv. I do not like this stigma. I watch this, this show. I watch a 90 Day Fiance. I watched. I watch 600 pound Life and Intervention and all these shows about human behavior. And I refuse to feel any shame about it.

John Dehlin [00:02:56] I love it. All right, well, now that Britt's thrown down the mic. Drop the mic. We, we can begin. So we've got a lot to cover today, a lot of fun, and let's begin if it's all right, with intentions. So as Samantha's popping her coke, the tab for a coke, let's be with intentions. So, Brittany, you address the fact that we shouldn't have shame talking about social media or watching reality tv. But just like we did with the Ballerina Farm episode and with the plastic surgery episode, it can be very easy to be hard on people, soft on systems. It can be very easy to be catty. And so why don't we give everyone a chance to just kind of state their intentions of how we're going to be approaching secret lives of Mormon wives. And we'll start with you, Brittany. Do you have an intention you want to share?

Britt Hartley [00:03:57] Sure. So my intention would be really trying to understand as we're experiencing faith crisis in Salt Lake City and people are leaving the church, what is then going to be left of Mormon culture and what are the effect of Mormon culture regardless of if you have these beliefs or not? In the show, they didn't talk a lot about their beliefs, but there's something so culturally Mormon about it that we can talk about and learn about and see reflections of ourselves in. And I still think that there's value to that conversation.

John Dehlin [00:04:29] All right. Yeah. And that's one of the big questions is how Mormon is the show. But we'll get into that. All right. Samantha, you want to add anything?

Samantha Shelley [00:04:38] Yeah, I mean, I thought it'd be nice to do intentions for this one as we did it for the Ballerina Farm episode, because I feel like these women are victims of patriarchy, just as Hannah Nealman is. And I didn't want to just do the, the nice intention for like the perfect Mormon housewife. I thought it would be just kind of nice to establish that we want to be like compassionate and understanding and non shaming of a messier flavor of being a victim of patriarchy.

John Dehlin [00:05:04] Not to jump right in, but I'm not sure they see themselves as victims. I think they see. I think they're making a lot more money than any of us.

Samantha Shelley [00:05:10] Yeah. And if you think. Yeah, I mean, if money is who's to say it's nationally, but.

John Dehlin [00:05:17] Yeah, yeah, no, I'm just being silly.

Samantha Shelley [00:05:19] I feel like these type of shows are like, does by design. They're designed to make us, you know, lean into judgment and outrage, and I think it's just more interesting to not do that.

John Dehlin [00:05:31] Yeah, absolutely. All right, Alyssa, bring us home.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:05:33] I think the main thing that is important to think about is we're talking about it and we're analyzing the stories that we're seeing on screen, but we're never actually analyzing any of the people because we don't know them. We don't know what's off camera. We don't know how much editing is playing a part and how these stories are being portrayed. So I think it's just really important to emphasize that we're talking about the characters and how they're portrayed. We're not talking about them as individual people that we don't know. We're just talking about the. What? What? The representation of these characters on screen. Tell us about Mormonism and Mormon culture.

Samantha Shelley [00:06:03] We're allowed to psychoanalyze them to death, right? Exactly. The untrained way, for sure.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:06:08] Just, like, diagnose them.

Samantha Shelley [00:06:10] Yeah, yeah, right.

John Dehlin [00:06:11] I want to hear what your mutual diagnoses are.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:06:14] Yeah, let's go. Yeah. Here we go. Get ready vibes.

John Dehlin [00:06:19] All right. Okay, cool. So I also want to welcome all our. We are live streaming today. I want to welcome everyone who's joining us by live stream. Maven's going to be moderating the chat. She'll star comments or questions that she thinks I should raise. And, of course, we always welcome.

John Dehlin [00:06:39] We always thank those of you who donate to Mormon Stories in the Open Stories Foundation. Your donations make this possible. So you're the bread and butter of. You're the backbone of Mormon Stories. Those of you who are monthly donors while we're doing live streams, we always welcome those who want to Super Chat. If you want your comment or question on Super Chat to be read or viewed, a Super Chat donation helps lift that to our visibility. And then most importantly, please subscribe to to this channel along with Zel on the Shelf and no nonsense spirituality. And then, like, this episode. And that will help with the algorithms, if that's okay.

The Church's Preemptive Public Statement

John Dehlin [00:07:17] All right, so without any further ado, this whole saga begins with a statement from the church newsroom. What do you guys think about that? Did you guys see the preemptive statement on Church Newsroom?

Alyssa Witbeck [00:07:33] I love it. I mean, I love it for the lore. It's just really interesting to think about how they were they were getting worried about what people's perceptions would be. They were anticipating this to be really big show. They're anticipating it to have a large effect on people's perceptions of Mormons and how that might shift from how people tend to think of Mormons as like the 1950s American ideal. So I just find it really compelling that they could consider this enough of a PR crisis to make a statement.

John Dehlin [00:08:02] Well, here's the. I'll show quickly a screenshot of the newsroom article. It says commentary when entertainment media distorts faith. So it's sort of a victim, victim posture. I'm going to go ahead and read it and then we'll let you guys respond to that as kind of the preemptive strike. So it says the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, like other prominent global faith communities often. And you guys stop me whenever you want me to stop. When often finds itself the focus of the attention of. Of the entertainment industry. Some portrayals are fair and accurate, but others resort to stereotypes or gross misrepresentations that are in poor taste and have real life consequences for people in Utah and for people of faith. Okay, I'm going to pause there.

Samantha Shelley [00:08:53] I wonder what ones they do agree are fair and accurate. They never really seem to be vibing with anything.

John Dehlin [00:08:59] Yeah, that's a really good question. And Britt, jump in anytime you want.

Britt Hartley [00:09:03] Yeah. To me, this if I was. Let me ask. Yeah, let me ask the panel this. If you were wanting to the show to be the number one show on Hulu, I think you would want to have the church make a preemptive press release because what I saw on Tick Tock is someone who spends a lot of time on Tick Tock. A lot of my work is on Tick Tock. That's when members started to say this show is coming out. This isn't a representation of me. I'm a Mormon mother. I don't swing. And so I, I almost feel like the church by putting that out

Britt Hartley [00:09:37] and then members go on TikTok saying this isn't Mormon started the huge wave of conversation before even the show came out that if I were in the PR department, I don't know if I would have even validated the show with the response because I feel like it just fueled the show to become the number one show on. On Hulu and they were a part of that. So I don't know if they had the effect that they wanted to have.

John Dehlin [00:10:03] Absolutely. For all the money the church has, somebody needs to explain to them the Barbra Streisand effect, right?

Alyssa Witbeck [00:10:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:10] Alyssa, were you going to say something?

Alyssa Witbeck [00:10:11] Nope, nope, Keep going.

John Dehlin [00:10:12] Oh, okay. Samantha, you agree? All right. We got a comment already coming in. A super chat. Dot K writes, I think soft swinging is a threat to families in the church itself. My neighbors got involved with it, and I stopped going to church as he is in the bishopric. Okay, wait, so. Going to save that comment for later. Thank you.

Britt Hartley [00:10:34] Let's get a whole episode on that, please. Let's get that. That story needs to come out.

John Dehlin [00:10:39] Well, we're going to address it a little bit, but she's jumping ahead of us anyway. Thanks for that super chat. We'll keep reading. The next paragraph says, while this is not new, a number of recent productions depict lifestyles and practices blatantly inconsistent with the teachings of the church. Others irresponsibly mischaracterized the safety and conduct of our volunteer missionaries. Okay, that's going to be. Is that going to be the Hugh Grant movie that's coming out? That's what I think it's referencing the horror movie. Oh, yes, from Hugh Grant. Anyway, it's talking about our missionaries. We understand the fascination some in the media have with the church, but regret that portrayals often rely on sensationalism and inaccuracies that do not fairly and fully reflect the lives of our church members or the sacred beliefs that they hold dear.

John Dehlin [00:11:36] And we're going to talk about whether, you know, Secret Lives of Mormon Wives is sensationalized and inaccurate. That's going to be part of today's episode. It ends by saying millions of church members around the world are deeply dedicated to family fidelity, service and the gospel of Jesus Christ. We invite all to consult reliable sources of information and listen to the voices and authentic experiences of individuals and families who find great joy and satisfaction in living these principles. The true story of our faith is best seen in the countless lives of those who strive daily to follow our Savior Jesus Christ. I have a question. Where can you find accurate, authentic, vulnerable accounts of Mormons in the world? Anyone have an idea? Anyone?

Mormon Social Media Influencer Culture

Britt Hartley [00:12:27] The I'm a Mormon series. The I'm a Mormon series that we don't support anymore.

John Dehlin [00:12:32] And half of those people have left the church, by the way. Right?

Britt Hartley [00:12:37] Maybe our best effort.

John Dehlin [00:12:38] No, seriously, like other. I think. I honestly think Mormon Stories is the best place in the world for people to hear about the lives of authentic Mormons. Melissa, what do you think?

Alyssa Witbeck [00:12:46] I was just gonna say this is a Plug for Mormon Stories podcast.

Samantha Shelley [00:12:49] Your grandiosity, John. I agree.

John Dehlin [00:12:53] I mean, also, I think it's Important to realize two thirds of all the people in the world who have ever been baptized as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, probably three fourths, have now left the church and no longer identify as Mormons. So this idea that the most fundamental conservative, orthodox Mormons are the real true Mormons or aren't they in the minority?

Samantha Shelley [00:13:20] Especially because the church will happily count the least active person as, like in their membership numbers. Yeah, they just want to count everyone when it suits them and then disavow them when it doesn't.

John Dehlin [00:13:31] Yeah, yeah.

Britt Hartley [00:13:32] I think to me that, you know, we can use the language to our advantage here. So if you want to be called, if, if you are truly devout and you want to be called a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, that's great. That means everybody else is a Mormon. Which means when it's. It's a show of Mormon wives, then that fits. And if it, it was a show that said the secret lives of members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, that would be something different. But if you don't want that word, then let us have that word.

Samantha Shelley [00:14:02] The church needs to make that version. That's.

Britt Hartley [00:14:04] Yeah, you can make that. Yeah, you, you can make that version. But then just give us Mormon if you don't want it, and we'll use that word. I do think it's interesting, John. You know, I've seen statements of the church over time that always talk about how we're a people of faith and love, but I don't think I've ever seen them use the word fidelity. And I do think someone intentionally put that word in there in order to say this thing, this swinging thing isn't something that, you know, real Mormons do because that, that, that word fidelity, especially when you already have the word faith, I think was. Was an interesting added word at the end there.

John Dehlin [00:14:42] Yeah, like clearly, I mean, we're going to get into this. But a church with this significant polygamous past, with Joseph smith having over 30 wives, its founder with its first, I don't know, 10 plus prophets, all being polygamous, like, all of a sudden it's super worried, and I guess rightly so, it's super worried about anything other than traditional Beaver Cleaver, you know, monogamy being conveyed is probably going to be alarming to the church.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:15:13] And I do think it's interesting just kind of like along that same line, the very beginning of the show when it just shows the title and it does it as like a Google, like you can see that it's like typing in the secret lives more wives. I'm not sure what that is called, but you see other searches underneath that they have like intentionally put on the screen. And a couple that I can remember off the top of my head are Taylor, Frankie Paul, soaking and polygamy. And I think that's really interesting because they know that's like what a lot of outsiders think about when they think about more Mormons, which polygamy, soaking, and now Taylor, Frankie Paul are definitely three categories that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is really trying to distance themselves from.

John Dehlin [00:15:55] So anyway, yeah, for the never Mormons out there, I don't think they understand that for a long, long time we as a church and as a people embraced the, the label Mormon. And it wasn't until our most recent prophet, who's having his hundred birthday today, as soon as he became prophet for some reason, after the church literally invested billions in the Mormon name as an identity, all of a sudden the most recent prophet president as like a pet project, condemned the use of the term Mormon for the entire membership. And so like you said, Britt, this is. Who's Mormon then? Like, I'm curious, Alyssa, do you consider yourself Mormon or not?

Alyssa Witbeck [00:16:34] I do. Yeah. And still.

John Dehlin [00:16:36] But when you say that, what do you mean?

Alyssa Witbeck [00:16:38] I mean that I was raised Mormon, that I have Mormon is. I mean, I'm seventh generation Mormon. That that's how everything that I understand culturally has been taught to me through that. And I no longer believe and I've left the church now, but I still feel like it's my community. It's still a place where I, I fit in as far as understanding, like the references, the culture, all of that,

John Dehlin [00:16:58] because a lot of people get on me and say, to call this podcast Mormon Stories when it features a lot of people that have questioned or left the church, is disingenuous. It's dishonest. But again, we're using Mormon as a cultural term, like Jewish. Right? A Jew can be an atheist, cannot attend synagogue, cannot believe in Moses, and no one's going to question that they're Jews. That's how we think about the term Mormon. Samantha, what do you, what's your take on that?

Samantha Shelley [00:17:26] No, I'm, I agree with what you just said. I don't consider myself Mormon because I wasn't raised in it. But I mean, I do have seven years of Mormon wiring. So. Yeah, I mean, I just think if you've ever had an experience in Mormonism, it's a Mormon story.

John Dehlin [00:17:41] Yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:17:41] And I also think that where this show is, you know, number one on Hulu right now, it's reaching a vastly non Mormon audience. The only people that are really caring about the gatekeeping of who's Mormon, who's ex Mormon, who is pimo, who is progmo, who is excommunicated, who is atheist. The only people that really care about the conversation are people within the church, people that are outside of the church. It's like if you've ever been Mormon, if you have any adjacent to Mormon, you can count it from, from what I understand. So I just think it that like whole discussion and controversy is only happening for a very small group of people that are watching the show.

John Dehlin [00:18:16] Yeah, yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:18:16] I feel like Mormons are just still really bad at realizing that in every faith there's going to be a spectrum of obedience and belief and they, and they just want to gatekeep so hard and it's just not like that you would say someone wasn't Catholic because they like, didn't go as much as you think they should to be considered Catholic.

John Dehlin [00:18:34] Absolutely, absolutely. Britt, did you have anything to add to that?

Britt Hartley [00:18:38] Yeah, just. Just that, that comment about how, you know, Jews and Catholics can be Jews and Catholics. And we're actually watching that transition happen with Mormonism because it's a younger religion. And so it's super fascinating to watch, which is, you know, what does it mean to be Mormon in a Mormon culture, in a Mormon spectrum, a way that a Catholic can just be Catholic because that's how their family are and they may have no beliefs at all, or there's just a wide spectrum. We're watching as people are leaving Mormonism, but the culture is still leaving behind its imprint. We're kind of watching Mormonism go through

Britt Hartley [00:19:16] that process of what does it mean to be a Mormon culture when you have no beliefs, which, which older religions have already gone through that process and have that stable spectrum where you can just say, I'm Jewish and that doesn't really mean anything about your beliefs necessari. And so it's, it's been interesting to watch the church go through that growing pains as a young religion.

John Dehlin [00:19:38] Yeah. All right, well, let's go ahead and, let's go ahead and jump to the next slide. This is kind of the, you know, one screenshot of the advertisement for the show. And I'm just going to ask all three of you, if you look at this shot, but you took out the title of the show, would you immediately be honest with me? Would you immediately go, oh, this is clearly a show about Mormons, or would you think it was more, I don't know, Real Housewives or the Kardashians? Samantha, I'll have you answer first. Is this. Is this truly a photo that. That connotes or denotes Mormon women?

Samantha Shelley [00:20:21] It's a show about the hair extension industry.

John Dehlin [00:20:27] Alyssa, what do you think?

Alyssa Witbeck [00:20:29] I mean, they definitely don't appear Mormon right off, right out of the gate, mostly based on, like, their clothing. So I think that has definitely been jarring to some people.

John Dehlin [00:20:40] Yeah, Yeah, I. I'll just say I. That photo doesn't look Mormon to me. That looks like Kardashians. Real. Real Housewives. Not. Not Mormonism.

Britt Hartley [00:20:50] But also, did anyone. John, did anyone like the. The background of the photo being stained glass? And then also in the show when they have just, like, kind of religious shots that they're throwing in, they did a lot of stained glass. And that, like, instantly felt very off to me, because when Mormons do stained glass, we do it in the temple, usually to let in natural light. Usually it's like leaves or wheat. But we don't do, like, biblical scenes in stained glass. We certainly don't do, like, usually colorful scenes in stained glass. That's very Catholic, and so we've never done that because of our history with Catholicism.

Britt Hartley [00:21:29] So just like, the stained glass in the background, and then in the show, there was a lot of, like, clips of stained glass. That part felt. It felt like how some of these shows, no matter how hard you try, you know, if you're not Mormon and you're part of the editing team putting together, there'll be something in there that just doesn't quite feel Mormon. And that one stood out to me is, like, that doesn't feel very Mormon.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:21:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:54] I'm guessing that when these TV types are producing, they want to convey religion, but they want to convey a more mainstream religion. For those who don't know, Mormons don't really do stained glass. It's a rare Mormon chapel. I mean, a few might, but normally stained glass isn't. Isn't part of our worship experiences, at least chapels. I don't know about temples. What do you guys think? Are temples more in the stained glass?

Britt Hartley [00:22:19] Temples will do stained glass, but just for natural light. And there's, like, common themes. Leaves, trees, wheat, things like that. But. But not scenes like, we don't do. I can't think of a single, like, scene of some biblical story that we've done in colored stained glass. That's something that we've never done. We just do it Sometimes for light in the temple, just natural light.

John Dehlin [00:22:41] And Brett, what's your reaction to my, you know, to the idea that. That these women, these women just don't look Mormon, that this, this photo doesn't denote Mormon women, You know, if for no other reason, that, that Mormon women are supposed to wear garments, which means they're not supposed to show their shoulders, they're not supposed to show any skin above the knee. And, you know, all the hair extensions and, and just the glam stuff, we may just be.

Britt Hartley [00:23:12] Yeah, we may just be showing our age in that because certainly that's not the Mormonism that I grew up in. And there was a clear line based on how you dress and who's Mormon and who's not. But we know from the research of Jenna Reese that Gen Z does not feel that way. Gen Z can totally feel like they are a hundred percent devout Mormon and be ambivalent to the wearing of garments as. As a generation. And so we may just be showing our age that it may not look Mormon but to us, but maybe that's just not as big of a identity marker for the younger generation than it is for us old fogies.

John Dehlin [00:23:50] Wow. Alyssa and Samantha. Thoughts?

Samantha Shelley [00:23:53] I would agree with that. I feel like a lot of those girls look like girls I was friends with in college. Obviously in college, girls aren't really wearing garments anyway.

John Dehlin [00:24:00] But you're a byu. I don't.

Samantha Shelley [00:24:01] The general aesthetic is Mormon to me.

John Dehlin [00:24:04] Okay.

Samantha Shelley [00:24:04] BYU.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:24:05] I. Yeah, I was just. I was just going to say that I think part of this is. I mean, I guess maybe we'll dive into this more later, but I'll just tease out a thought about it right now that so much of this is happening post TikTok, and we know that so many people are leaving the church and are like, after Covid and after the, like, resurgence of. Or resurgence of TikTok, people have changed their devotion to Mormonism and some of the rules have softened around that same time. And so I think the fact that these women are representing Mormonism as glam as, you know, most of them aren't wearing garments, I think it does an interesting job of showing the time that way too, where it seems like, yeah, Post Covid, post TikTok, it is kind of when people have especially started to soften the lines around some of those things.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:24:49] And I think part of that is because more and more people are posting content online. And I think even like 10 years ago, influencers would be posting things online without wearing their garments and then wear them in their day to Day life. That was pretty common.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:25:02] But I think maybe because more and more people are influencers now or are posting content, we're seeing that spreading. So I think that that phenomenon is becoming more and more recent as well.

John Dehlin [00:25:14] Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned just the fact that somehow in the strange twist of the universe, just like how strange it is that dinosaur bones are found or over over found in Utah as a great irony because Mormon prophets teach that the earth is 6,000 years old and the dinosaurs never really existed, somehow Mormon mommies ended up over represented in the social media era. Whether it's, you know, the eight passengers, Ruby Frankie thing on YouTube or the Trad wife phenomenon represented by ballerina farms and Hannah Neeleman, isn't that, you know, this is just another like, somehow Mormon mommies from like Draper and freaking Riverton and Herriman, Utah kind of Salt Lake Valley, and ended up dominating yet another platform, which is Tik Tok. Like, why are the Mormon mommies cleaning up on social media? Can we have a answer for that? Anyone?

Samantha Shelley [00:26:13] Hot Mormon women are gorgeous.

John Dehlin [00:26:17] Okay, all right. Any other theories for why Mormon mom mommies are cleaning up on social media?

Britt Hartley [00:26:24] They're young, they're hot, and they also have money. Like, they have money at their disposal to be, you know, hair extensions cost money. They like, they're not, they're not cheap. And so there's. They're young, they've already had kids, they're home, and so they're bored and want something to do and want some way to connect with the world. They also still never really got the experience of their twenties and just being young and hot and having attention. And so there's a way to do it while they're still at home with their young children. And so I, I just think it's a combination of a lot of that and then also going back to the garment conversation, I also think something happened on TikTok Tick Tock, where because there were influencers on TikTok showing out, you know, it's very common.

Britt Hartley [00:27:06] I see a couple a day of here's, here's how I run this outfit and I'm still wearing my garments, is that there's also ways to wear garments where it doesn't go all the way to your knee. So they'll say, I buy the petite garments. There's little tricks that you can.

Samantha Shelley [00:27:21] Right.

Britt Hartley [00:27:22] And this is something that, because TikTok is so visual, this conversation didn't really blow up until we had these visual platforms. And so they'll go on Tick Tock and Say, you know, I'm, I'm wearing my garments. This is my outfit of the day. And you know, the. Their shorts are halfway up their leg because they specifically buy whether or not they are petite. Specifically buy petite garments. And then they'll specifically buy where you know whether or not they are nursing. They'll buy nursing garments. Because nursing garments give you a really low V. And you can get a lot of cleavage with nursing garments. And so there's this, there's also this very visual conversation of I can look cute too and still wear my garments.

Britt Hartley [00:28:02] But it's not, you know, the garments that, that I remember wearing that, that really had sleeves and really, you know, went all the way down to my knee. And so some of that is just how visual it is too, is part of the conversation.

Samantha Shelley [00:28:14] I used to wear petite garment shorts and I'm five foot nine.

John Dehlin [00:28:18] Oh, yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:28:19] Karen as a petite. All the hot girls are wearing them.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:28:21] This is true.

Guest 2 [00:28:21] Yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:28:22] Karen has a hat.

Britt Hartley [00:28:22] It's such a secret. Yeah, it's such a little secret that nobody says out loud. But it's definitely online. But I've never heard anybody talk about it like an award or, or, or at a lunch group if everybody's members. But it's like this little secret, like, hey, just buy the petite ones and then you can wear.

John Dehlin [00:28:40] Oh, go ahead. Spent.

Samantha Shelley [00:28:41] I was going to say even if I wouldn't necessarily even wear things that were that short, but it's just like if you were just walking, even in a knee length thing, it's going to. It was just so annoying having knee length for our.

Mormon Garments and Religious Dress Explained

John Dehlin [00:28:51] Never Mormons. Can one of you or all of you just describe what Mormon garments. Mormon women's underwear are like, extremely comfortable and flattering.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:29:03] They make you feel really good about your body, especially if you're getting them right before marriage and you're a virgin beforehand. So 10 out of 10.

John Dehlin [00:29:10] Sarcasm alert.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:29:13] But yeah, I mean, how they were at least just a few years ago. They go almost down to your knees.

John Dehlin [00:29:18] They're like biker. The bottoms are like biker shorts.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:29:20] Exactly. Okay, there's a very skims. Except for the. Instead of making anyway, they're less. They're less flatter than skims. Wait, instead of making what I was going to say, you know, skims are supposed to be like form flattering and garments are the opposite. They like hug every bump, every curve.

Samantha Shelley [00:29:38] There is a picture of Kim Kardashian wearing white skims. That does look like the Karen.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:29:42] You're like, oh, no. Is Kim Kardashian bringing Karen essence Back.

Samantha Shelley [00:29:47] The church should do a skims collab. Honestly, the money that they would make.

Britt Hartley [00:29:52] Has anyone. Have you done an episode on this, John, where apparently the new, like just, just like a month ago, the new, new women's garments are much more of a tank top than the sleeves that we've had.

John Dehlin [00:30:04] Not yet.

Britt Hartley [00:30:05] Yeah. So I, I think there's some changes there too. But yeah, essentially, you know, they're, they're the symbol of the covenants that you make in the temple.

John Dehlin [00:30:14] And it's bikers, biker shorts on bottom. What's the top?

Britt Hartley [00:30:17] And just, it depends. A silky kind of undershirt or, you know, a more cotton kind of. For the men, it's much more like a boxer brief and a white Hanes kind of undershirt. It looks a lot more normal. For women. It's, it's a lot more tricky. So if you're someone like a mom who's in activewear, it becomes tricky of, you know, do I take this off to go run my errands, to put my garments on? And then also women have issues with UTIs because it's really bad for, for your health down there to have these garments that have just so much fabric. It's just not good for you.

John Dehlin [00:30:52] Yeast. Yeast infections too. Right?

Britt Hartley [00:30:54] Yeast infections. Ut just. And, and so it's, it's just this especially for Mormon women where it's not as natural looking as just like a T shirt undershirt as it is for guys. It's, it's a real struggle. It's a real mental mind game of, of trying to show that you're devout, trying to show that the covenants that you make to God are important. But then also like the real life scenario of like, how does this fit into my life? And, and it doesn't. And then women's bodies change so much. You know, you can go up or down £20 for nothing and you're having babies and, and my friends would be wearing their husband's garments because they've grown out of their garments.

Britt Hartley [00:31:29] And then you're breastfeeding and then you have to get new garments and it's just such, it's, it's. I understand it's a symbol, but like, so is a necklace. Like, so is a CTR ring or a bracelet. Like, why does it have to be a symbol that is not only, you know, sometimes damaging to, to women's health, but also really restricts women in a way that it doesn't men.

John Dehlin [00:31:52] Yeah. And the way it manifests is like women can never show their shoulders Women can never show their midriffs. Women can never wear shorts or skirts that go above the knee and that. And, and so that really affects what wardrobe you can wear. And then you can mention the bedroom dynamics as well in terms of the sexiness or lack thereof.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:32:15] And I also think, and this is something that Britt was just commenting on, but just adding, adding on a little bit more to it is, I think that it's just so obvious the way that they affect women, how garments are made by men for women. And the amount of sacrifice that it takes for a man to wear garments is significantly less than for women to wear garments. Just because whether you want to dress modestly or not, there are significantly fewer options when you're shopping for women to find something that is garment appropriate, even something that you might say, oh, this is modest, it still is not going to be able to be worn with garments because, you know, when moving, when you're walking, like sandwiches, saying, with shorts, like, they kind of will flare up.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:32:55] It's just so much of a sacrifice for Mormon women that it is not for Mormon men. And so the way that the culture is constantly blaming women for not wearing their garments enough, even though statistically they wear them about the same amount men, possibly even less, is, I think, just a really frustrating element to it. Because the difference between regular women's underwear and garment, women's underwear is drastically different, whereas it's not that different for men wearing regular boxer briefs versus garments. It's not as much of a sacrifice.

John Dehlin [00:33:26] It's a way to kind of make women look super conservative and not sexually attractive. Is that fair?

Alyssa Witbeck [00:33:33] Yeah. And I think, like, one thing that was surprising. Sorry, this is like, we're totally going off the tangent here. But even dressing modestly, before I went through the temple, I dressed modest. I wore clothes. I was thinking, like, this is modest clothing of something I really cared about. But just the layering, especially of, of some of like the thicker, cottony garments, it just really changes the style. I found I still had to buy new clothes even though I was wearing things that I thought would be garment appropriate. So it's just, it's just complicated.

John Dehlin [00:34:00] Yeah. Well, one of the reasons we do this on Mormon Stories is just because we can speak to the Mormon experience for the rest of the non Mormon world. This is the type of stuff the show's not going to really cover or the journalists won't get right. So I'm glad we're doing it. All right, so this, this, this series has been covered extensively, people. Washington Post, Rolling Stone, Daily Beast, cnn, Us Weekly, and more. It's basically all over the place. I saw two articles in the New York Times.

Meet the Cast of the Show

John Dehlin [00:34:31] You know, the Deseret News covered at least two articles on it, which is Utah's church owned newspaper. And these are the cast of characters. There are basically eight women. Taylor, Frankie Paul, she's kind of viewed as the star and the ringleader. 29, 4.1 million tick tock followers. There's Demi Ingaman, age 29, 346, 000 tick tock followers. Jen Affleck. Apparently Jen is married to Ben Affleck's cousin. Is that right? Is that what y' all heard?

Alyssa Witbeck [00:35:01] Something like that.

Samantha Shelley [00:35:02] Second, was it second cousin.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:35:03] They're related somehow.

John Dehlin [00:35:05] Yeah, but of course Ben Affleck is not, not Mormon, never been Mormon, but somehow his distant cousin married a Mormon. So that's, that's Jen affleck. There's Jesse, age 31, 168, 000 followers. Layla, age 22 58, 000. Is Layla the one woman of color, is that right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:35:29] And she seems really new to the group.

John Dehlin [00:35:31] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:35:31] And has the least followers. I don't know, maybe they just wanted to, to have a woman of color in there.

John Dehlin [00:35:36] I'm sure that's a true time. I'm sure that's true. And well, a lot of these women aren't, aren't part of the original group. We'll get to that in just a second. There's also Macy Neely, age 28, 1.3 million followers. Michaela Matthews, age 23, 2.4 million. And then Whitney, kind of like the, the mean girl, as they say, as some are framing her. The mean girl. She's age 30 and 2 million tick tock followers. So that's the cast. And let's go ahead and play a little TikTok video that in a fun way kind of summarizes who, who we're. We're talking about here.

▶ Video Clip 1

Video Clip 1 [00:36:14] Okay, as requested, here is a full breakdown of the cast so that you can understand who is who. It should be noted that this is not the OG cast. This is the OG cast. This is the original Mom Talk, but we'll get into that later. First up, we have Taylor Frankie Paul. She is the star of the show. She started Mom Talk and she was also the one that was behind the leaking of the soft swinging scandal. She is definitely a less active member of the Mormon Church and she is possibly the most misunderstood member of the cast. Before the show, everyone pretty much hated

Video Clip 1 [00:36:49] her because of what they saw on

Video Clip 1 [00:36:50] TikTok and now everyone basically loves her because they understand she was part of the soft swinging that was with Miranda and Miranda's husband. They are not on the show. This is Whitney. She is the resident mean girl. She considers herself to be a very devout Mormon and she's also insanely jealous of Taylor. She is a narcissist and she loves to play the victim.

Video Clip 1 [00:37:12] Her husband was also exposed for cheating on her on Tinder throughout the entire length of their marriage and she has absolutely no self awareness. Next we have Layla. I like her, but she is definitely an interesting character. She falls into the category of sinners, but she considers herself Mormon. She is divorced. She's a single mom. She gets a lot of plastic surgery. I like her. Next up we have Demi, who is 30 years old and she's married to Brett, who is 46 years old. She is super real. I love her. But I think it's weird that her husband used to be married to a Real Housewives of Salt Lake City star that seems kind of sus almost like was he looking for another reality star wife life?

Video Clip 1 [00:37:54] I don't know.

Video Clip 1 [00:37:55] She is definitely in the center category, but we love her. Then you have Jesse. She's the oldest one of the group. She's 32 years old. She owns a hair company in Salt Lake City and she is amazing. She can sometimes act like the mom of the group and I love her for that. She is also not a mean girl. She is a girl's girl. She really stays out of the drama for the most part, unless she's helping to kind of guide the group. Then we have Jen. She's a saint. She loves to talk about the fact that she is Mormon and she's married to Zach, who is a narcissist and very controlling. Zach is in medical school. He gambled away all of his school money. So now Jen provides for the whole family. He is very controlling of her and I think if she ditched him, she

Video Clip 1 [00:38:37] would be pretty chill.

Video Clip 1 [00:38:38] Next we have Macy. She is a flip flopper. She loves to play both sides. She is very messy, but she does consider herself to be one of the saints. Taylor seems to really like Macy, but I'm not really sure why because Macy talks about her behind her back. Macy also really hates Taylor's boyfriend. Next we have Michaela. She is very much in the background, honestly. Kind of wonder why she's even on the show. She doesn't play much of a role and she does have some sort of undiagnosed health condition that seems to cause some trouble.

Video Clip 1 [00:39:06] For her.

Video Clip 1 [00:39:07] Now, like I said, these are not the only originals. These are all of the original Mom Talk girls. And one of these OG mom chocolates is the one that Taylor was soft swinging with her and her husband. So there you have it. Let me know if you have any more questions.

John Dehlin [00:39:26] All right, so do you have any reactions to those characterizations? Some. Some of the audience don't really love those characterizations. Do you all have any thoughts on the cast? Anything?

Alyssa Witbeck [00:39:37] The only thing I wanted to note really quick, someone in the comments pointed out that we said that Layla was the only woman of color. Jen. Her mom is from Ecuador, I believe. So just want to point that out.

John Dehlin [00:39:48] Okay. All right. Any other reactions?

Samantha Shelley [00:39:52] I mean, I'm always, like, skeptical of any reality TV show categorization.

John Dehlin [00:39:58] Okay. All right.

Britt Hartley [00:40:00] Yeah, that's just. That's a big question, John.

Guest [00:40:02] Of.

Britt Hartley [00:40:03] Of. But she. That was. That was a good. Yeah, that was a good video that shows some of the dynamics of the show. And I. I agree with. With. With most of it. The characterizations of. Of especially, there seems to be a split between who considers himself an actually believing Mormon and who considers himself more of a cultural Mormon. So I would be on board with most of that assessment.

The Swinging Scandal at the Heart of the Show

John Dehlin [00:40:28] Okay. All right, so that's the cast. Let's go ahead and go to. I think one of the biggest topics. I don't know if y' all are expecting this. We're going to kind of just hit it. It right at the top. One of the articles from NBC News titles, you know, this article, Inside a Mormon Swinging Scandal. New docu series showcases Mom Talk influencer drama. And then it goes on to say, two years ago, a sex scandal shook the foundation of a thriving online subculture of Mormon moms. Mom Talk and online communities shaped by a group of Mormon influencers in Utah rose to prominence on TikTok for its lifestyle and parenting content.

John Dehlin [00:41:12] Then one of its main creators, Tater Frankie Paul, announced that she and her husband were getting a divorce, revealing in the process that they'd had an open relationship and that she had violated the terms. Paul, Ruby, Taylor. Frankie Paul referred to the arrangement as soft swinging and said that several couples in her friend group were doing the same. The revelation gave rise to a widespread speculation about which other Mom Talk influencers were involved. And, you know, and that's basically a big part of the drama around the show is who's not involved? Why were so many of the original, you know, Mom Talk participants excluded? Who was and wasn't swinging? Any orig. Any. Any comments off the top about this subject of swinging, soft swinging, etc.

Samantha Shelley [00:42:07] It was just Taylor that we know of that was actually involved in the swinging.

Guest [00:42:11] Right.

John Dehlin [00:42:11] Who's in the current cast?

Samantha Shelley [00:42:13] In the current cast.

John Dehlin [00:42:14] That's all I know of.

Samantha Shelley [00:42:15] And so were the other. The previous cast members. They were gonna do the show, but then they had their, like, personal lives made public. Like, what do we know?

Alyssa Witbeck [00:42:25] I think they'd already had a falling out with Taylor. And the. The. From what I understand, which is not everything, but from what I understand is the. The cast, the producers reached out to a lot of women from Mom Talk. Some of the women who were involved in the scandal said that they did not. And not even some involved in the scandal. Just some of the original Mom Talk girls who felt like they had been put under fire, said they wouldn't do the show if Taylor was on it. So at this point, I feel like the swinging really doesn't play a huge part in this actual show that's just launched how everybody knew them, they'd already had a really big platform, each of these women individually, and then the scandal launched them into a larger platform that was really explosive.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:43:05] And I think then, you know, we see that's kind of where the show starts. But really none of these women were involved in it except for Taylor. And even then, only three couples from what Taylor has said were involved in it ever. And so it was a pretty small group of the Mom Talk group that actually were part of the scandal. It just has been presented as so, you know, scandalous and salacious, and everybody's involved and everybody's hooking up with everybody. And so I think that's just like really kind of what got them onto a TV show.

John Dehlin [00:43:32] Okay, got it. Anything you want to add, Britt?

Britt Hartley [00:43:35] Yeah, I. I totally agree. I think for people who have been on TikTok, we maybe expected that there would be more focus on how that world blew up and. And all of the drama that happened that we on TikTok were watching in real time. But it really wasn't a part of the show really at all like you said it was. It was really about, you know, they briefly touched on it, but then they kind of went on to what the girls are doing now. And I think what I. From watching people on Tick Tock, I think we all expected that this would be a lot of hate on Taylor because her life is just really messy.

Britt Hartley [00:44:09] And she may. She admits that she makes a lot of poor choices. And so we all expected that it would kind of be a lot about that. But then when you watch her in the show, she's just struggling. She's honest that, hey, my life is a little bit of a train wreck and I made some mistakes and I went to jail and I really regret that. And in the end you just end up kind of rooting for her because she's honest that I've, I've made some tough choices. I'm in a tough situation, I'm in a tough relationship, I'm pregnant. And it's kind of hard to hate her because, you know, you just kind of see her struggle.

Britt Hartley [00:44:41] And so going into it, I really thought it would be a lot to, of, of pushback on, on Taylor and her actions because that's what it was on TikTok at the time. But really you just end up feeling for her. And Whitney is the one who ends up getting the heat for just kind of being a mean girl without any accountability, whereas Taylor will at least say, yeah, I made some poor choices.

John Dehlin [00:45:03] I should mention that today we there will be spoilers. So go watch episodes one and two if you don't want any spoilers before. We're going to try and talk about episodes one and two today and some of the framing issues and then we'll talk about the subsequent episodes in a couple subsequent episodes. I'm imagining at least one to two more shows in the next week or two covering those, those final mid to final episodes. Let me just hit that question though. As ambassadors of Mormonism described broadly, writ broadly to the world, how much is swinging or non monogamy a thing in Utah? None of us have data in terms of like non monogamy or swinging per capita Utah versus outside.

Non-Monogamy, Sex, and Mormon Culture

John Dehlin [00:45:54] But does anybody want to share anecdotally from friends or from, you know, relationships or people that they know whether swinging slash non monogamy really is a Utah thing in a, in a relatively frequent existence and whether it really happens in Mormonism or mostly in non Mormonism or ex Mormonism. Let's just hit that topic right from the top. Who wants to start?

Britt Hartley [00:46:25] I'll go. I do think, and I'm going to be honest here because I, I work a lot more with the ex Mormon community than I do active mor just in the basis of the people who want me as a coach. And I would say that swinging is, is much more prevalent and often more problematic in the ex Mormon community. But I will say that anytime. And this is where you can just get any Julie Hanks or Natasha Hilfa partner Natasha Helfer. Sorry, whenever you have repressed sexuality, it is going to show up somewhere So I do think that there is swinging that happens in Mormonism.

Britt Hartley [00:47:05] There's definitely, you know, porn in Utah. This is a thing that's well documented that whenever you have repressed sexuality, it's going to show up. And it certainly shows up in unhealthy ways in Mormonism. But I see a lot more swinging in ex Mormonism, because once you take away, you know, once you take away the beliefs, then it's a little bit kid in the candy store. And I see a lot of ex Mormons jump into opening their marriage. You know, they had a faith crisis yesterday, and they're opening their marriage today without getting the sexual education that they need in order to make that healthy. So I see this across the spectrum in Mormonism.

John Dehlin [00:47:46] And. And would you say in your experience, Britt, that it's relatively common in ex Mormonism, rare in ex Mormonism, or.

Britt Hartley [00:47:54] I would. I would say it's very common to, you know, the second that you lose your beliefs, if you don't have some kind of structure there, if you have a lot of repressed everything, that there is a tendency to want to open your marriage right away because you got married at 19, you didn't know who you were. You certainly didn't know about your own sexuality at that, you know, at the time that you got married. And so there will be a tendency to do mushrooms and drink coffee and get a tattoo and open your marriage. And I think that's something we just have to be honest about.

Britt Hartley [00:48:28] Those are almost rites of passage in ex Mormon culture. And sometimes it can be a rite of passage that's healthy and part of your journey. And sometimes we can also say that there's some problematic aspects to that, too, that we can be honest about as ex Mormons or post Mormons.

John Dehlin [00:48:45] All right, thanks, Britt. Okay. What about Alyssa and Samantha? Anything I want to add?

Alyssa Witbeck [00:48:50] Yeah, I just. I don't know. I have never. My husband and I, we've never. No one has ever pitched us to, you know, swing with them. I'm a, like, a little offended by how common it seems to be, but I do think, like. Like, kind of like what Britt was saying. It seems like there is something that happens. It's something that I hear stories about.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:49:07] But I do think, like, especially within Mormon culture, having premarital sex is way more common than we would like to think sometimes when we're in the Mormon bubble. So I definitely think these things happen. And I think it especially is especially relevant to the concept that it's the secret lives of Mormon wives and yes. These women, you know, they're hot and cool and, and they have their own TV show. So maybe it's a little bit exaggerated from what your standard woman has, but I think the idea that most women have secrets, whether they're sexual or not sexual, I think is pretty standard across the board.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:49:40] That everybody has something that they know is, is maybe like a little hush hush for their as far as orthodoxy goes. But a set of this still happens.

John Dehlin [00:49:48] All right, Samantha?

Samantha Shelley [00:49:50] Yeah, I mean, I feel like what's already been said is as perfect as Britt kind of gave voice to. It's like anything that we repress is more likely to come out in dysfunctional ways. And not to say that swinging is inherently dysfunctional, but yeah, I do feel like people are corralled into these marriages young and then like a psyche is going to seek out what it feels it needs one way or the other. And I think, yeah, there can be definitely dysfunctional ex woman swinging situations, but it's sort of just people trying to like, express a part of them that they've never been able to express before. And it's, it becomes like a crash course, I guess, in confronting that previously unconscious or like, repressed aspect of themselves.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:50:37] And one. Oh, sorry.

Samantha Shelley [00:50:38] No, go ahead.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:50:38] I was gonna add one more thing. Um, so I was listening to the Vile Files. He was interviewing Taylor, Frankie Paul about all of this. And his, his point was that it sounded like from what he was saying that Taylor and her friends were inexperienced swingers was what he called it. And I just thought that was really interesting because he was pointing out that it seems like part of the reason why this scandal turned so bad is because they, you know, Taylor broke the rules they had of, of their swinging, but. Or of their like, swinging boundaries. But what I think is really common within ex Mormons and Mormons is people are trying to be experimental, they're trying to bend the rules a little bit.

Guest [00:51:16] It.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:51:17] But they don't really go out knowing like, what their boundaries should be or will be. And it seems like that's what has kind of been a problem from what we're seeing at least about all of these women, is they're experimenting. They're trying to find themselves, but because this has all been so forbidden, they don't have any sort of scaffolding on what is and is inappropriate, what is and isn't going to, you know, result in healthy or unhealthy relationships. And it seems like that's partially why things are blowing up so much for them, because even all that they were doing Supposedly, you know, just like kissing

Alyssa Witbeck [00:51:49] other people, making out with other people, but because their lines were kind of blurry, they weren't able to establish these boundaries in healthy ways for everybody to feel safe and everybody to feel consensual, that it just, it just turned into a disaster. And then all the couples that were part of the swinging scandal ended up getting divorced and.

Britt Hartley [00:52:05] Yeah, I totally agree. Yeah, I totally agree with that.

Samantha Shelley [00:52:08] It's all very, it sounded like the soft swinging situation was as like the kind of experimentation people would normally do in high school, but then they're already in these eternally, eternal commitment marriages by the time it's happening.

John Dehlin [00:52:22] Yeah, I'll just add a couple things. Just one thing I'll, I'll verify as someone who's probably talked to tens of thousands of ex Mormons at this point that, you know, I know lots of, I, I know lots of ex Mormons, including Margi myself, who have never tried, tried non monogamy or swinging of any type. I would say it's, I would say less than 50% of ex Mormons have tried non monogamy. That's my personal opinion. That's my experience. Maybe even less than 20%. I would say it's maybe 5 to 10%. That's my experience. But, but again there's, there's friends that I've had for many years who I found out later were involved in non monogamy and I didn't even know. So and they're very close friends. So you don't always know because it's, it's very stigmatized.

Samantha Shelley [00:53:11] I think you had what it took.

John Dehlin [00:53:12] Yeah, drop the names. No, I mean that's good. And like there's a very big stigma. Like people are very, very, it's, it's something that's very shamed, very fearful and it's very stigmatized. So that's worth noting. So I like to think of it, that's the reason why I didn't know versus they weren't interested.

Samantha Shelley [00:53:37] It was the stigma. Definitely. John.

John Dehlin [00:53:40] Okay. But also I just want to kind of say that this is not in Utah. It's not just an ex Mormon thing. So I've heard many, many times over the years of like in Draper, Utah, in Sandy, Utah, in Herriman, in Utah county, like all sorts of different places throughout the Wasatch front you hear about orthodox believing, faithful Mormons involved in swinging. And that is a long standing sort of understanding that these sorts of things break out. Just like freaking multi level marketing opportunities break out. There's something about Something in the soup, something in the mix. A lot of what you've already described. I don't know if it ties into Joseph Smith and our polygamous past.

Guest 2 [00:54:29] Past.

John Dehlin [00:54:29] But this is. My point is this is not just reserved to ex Mormons. It's also something happening with faithful and, and these women who were in the Mom Talk, original Mom Talk group, as I understand that they were all faithful believing, active Mormons. And I think that's.

John Dehlin [00:54:48] That's sort of, that's representative of some active, faithful Mormons. The only other thing I'll say is 10 years ago, I'm living in northern Utah, just say, and I had a very sharp, smart, successful listener come to me and tell me that he was a member of a Stake High Council and semi believing, but he and his partner were absolutely involved in swinging and that he knew bishops and stake presidents, Mormon active bishops and stake presidents, who to all their congregations appeared to be super faithful leaders in the church. But then they would go to other states, meet up with other couples on premium apps, and swing as not just faithful Mormons, but as Mormon bishops and stake presidents.

John Dehlin [00:55:43] So I don't. I think this happens a lot more than any of us think, and it certainly happens a lot more than I think what the church would ever want to believe.

Britt Hartley [00:55:53] And I think Sam's right in just that if it's a repressed part of your psyche, it's just going to show up somewhere.

Samantha Shelley [00:56:00] Yeah, yeah. Like, it's easy to, I don't know, to typecast things like that as good or bad, but it's like in the same way that you don't necessarily look. I mean, there are, there are safety things that matter. And if you hear of a teenager, you know, sexually experimenting, then there's. There are like, safety elements that are important, but you're not like, necessarily judging it as good or bad. You're like, oh, that's like developmentally appropriate for them to be experimenting and learning their boundaries and, and all that. And I feel like it's just the same thing. It's just happening. That's sort of a delayed and in, in a weird, obscure way, or what we would consider, like, weird societally.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:56:38] Go ahead.

John Dehlin [00:56:39] Oh, go ahead. No, please, Britt.

Britt Hartley [00:56:40] The perfect example of our lack of sexual education is episode two, when Whitney has a conversation with her mom and confronts her about she knew about sex. And she says that her wedding night was a horror show. Eventually she says, okay, we'll just call it a comedy show. And, you know, she goes up to her mom and says, like, I I didn't know anything about this. And so of course we can't have, as Mormons, you know, active Mormons or ex Mormons can't have healthy boundaries when we have zero sexual education about what those should even be or what that looks like. And that conversation with her mom was like a perfect display of that because the mom says, well, you had two kids, you figured it out.

Britt Hartley [00:57:25] And she's like, no, mom. Like, I didn't know anything about this. And there was a couple really interesting things about that conversation. I would love to hear Julie Hanks, especially her comments on that conversation, because the mom's. The mom says, cut me some slack, first of all, so some pushback. And then she says, well, you had children, so you figured it out.

Guest [00:57:45] Out.

Britt Hartley [00:57:45] And then she says, if I could go back, I would check that off of my parenting list. And the spirit of Julie Hanks rose within me and said, this mom is all of our moms. Because she's talking about if I, you know, if I could have been a better mom, I would have checked this off the list. And it's this checklist mom of pushing back when you're saying, mom, I, I really wish I had some more education around this and then saying, oh, I wish I would have checked that off the list. And this is what Julie Hanks talks about, that motherhood is not a checklist, it's a relationship, it's a conversation, it's a conversation of trust.

Britt Hartley [00:58:23] And that conversation between Whitney and her mom was just a perfect example of Mormon checklist mommying. And also our entire lack of sexual education and the disadvantage that that puts on us because we're having children and we have no idea what healthy sexual boundaries are. So it shows up in healthy ways, in unhealthy ways, in Mormonism, in active Mormonism. And then the second you lose your beliefs, it also shows up in ex Mormonism. It shows up anywhere on the Mormon spectrum because of our lack of sexual education. And that conversation perfectly highlighted that.

Samantha Shelley [00:59:00] Was it the scene after where the 22 year old who's a mother of two said she'd never had an orgasm and every time she gets close, she gets get scared.

Britt Hartley [00:59:08] My jaw dropped.

Samantha Shelley [00:59:10] I know the fact that she admitted she would get scared when she was about to have an orgasm and so she's never like that blew my mind a little bit.

John Dehlin [00:59:19] I think my mom would be okay with me mentioning that she's 90 now. But when my parents got divorced, I talked to them a lot about, you know, what didn't work in their relationship. And I think my mom has admitted she didn't have an orgasm until she was like 35 or 40 years old. And that was a really big problem in their marriage.

John Dehlin [00:59:38] Just, just they didn't have an education, they didn't know what they were doing and that affected the marriage. I also want to say there's all sorts of dysfunction that happens around sex in Utah. I'm going to share a couple comments and then make one more point. Scam Zone writes John Come to the each bench. East bench of Draper. This is sort of for those who don't know Utah, this is kind of southeast Salt Lake Valley, you know, southeast of Salt Lake City. East bench of Draper. I am here. The money is insane and the women are hot. Thus this is where the party is just being real.

John Dehlin [01:00:14] So Scam Zone's basically suggesting that there's a lot of swinging amongst faithful, active, rich, wealthy, powerful Mormons in Draper, which is something I kind of alluded to. I also want to share a comment Maven makes. Maven says I want to get the goods from sex workers in Utah. Utah. I've heard a ton in Utah. Regularly have Mormon clientele even quite high up. They're a tough group to crack, though. No, I've. I've personally spoken. There was a sex worker that did a podcast that wanted to consider coming on Mormon stories. So Natasha Helfer and I met here in this office with that sex worker to explore whether she was comfortable coming on the show.

John Dehlin [01:00:53] And she said she absolutely had bishops, active Mormon bishops and stake presidents as and politicians, prominent local celebrities as clientele in Utah. I've spoken with two sex workers in Utah. I'm not a customer, just to be clear, but I've spoken to two who are listeners of the show who say they know prominent church leaders and politicians that are regular clientele of the sex workers.

John Dehlin [01:01:25] That's in addition to it being well reported that somehow Utah men exceed the national average for per capita pornography use as well. So there's just something going on with sexuality that, you know, we've probably over over addressed at this point.

Samantha Shelley [01:01:43] It also seems worth mentioning that with Taylor because she, she slept with someone's husband outside of the swinging thing. Right. So she cheated with someone's husband. And wasn't she. She didn't she say she was blackout drunk and he picked her up from a party.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:01:57] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:01:57] So presumably this sober guy is sleeping with. So I feel like sub, like a lack of like consciousness around substances is playing into that as well, you know, because. Because I don't think she would have like said that that was, it's not like she was blind to the fact that that was wrong. I'm assuming, like she knew that it wasn't cool to. She was outside of the swinging.

Britt Hartley [01:02:19] She didn't want to say. She's like, I'm not making a claim here. She's like, I was black out drunk. But she was really careful to say like she didn't want to call it rape, but at the very least we can at least call it a lack of, of willing consent. But of course, if you, you know, consent is one of the six principles of good sexual health, but if we don't know what that is, then that, you know. But she was really careful about that conversation because she wanted to say that she was drunk, but she also didn't want to make claims that she, you know, to, to stand behind something there. So she was really careful. She was really uncomfortable with that conversation.

Samantha Shelley [01:02:56] Yeah, it feels pretty on brand for a lot of patriarchal Mormon men that they could be completely sober and picking up a girl who's blackout drunk and willing to have sex in that situation.

John Dehlin [01:03:08] Well, the word consent is not part of the Mormon vocabulary, full stop. Yeah, I would, I would venture to say that for most Mormons, the word consent has never been uttered in any of their church experience for their entire lives, and certainly not in the context of, of discussion around sexual health, sexual boundaries.

Samantha Shelley [01:03:29] It's just, it's like God's consent is the only consent that matters. Well, it's, they don't even bother below that.

John Dehlin [01:03:35] You know, it's like there's only, there's only no sex or sex within a monogamous marriage and no other sex exists. This, and I'm sure for Mormon church leaders, they've never thought about whether consent is a thing within a marriage. So it's either marriage where consent doesn't matter or no sex to a Mormon leader. Is that fair? Yeah, I mean, it's dark, but it's, it's fair. I also want to just say one last thing about swinging non monogamy, just because I think that's one of the things that draws people to the show is the press and the, you know, the media attention of the non monogamy and the swinging.

Controlling Relationships and Domestic Safety

John Dehlin [01:04:14] If any of you have noticed, a lot of Mormon wives are ending up dead. They're ending up being shot by their husbands, who weirdly are often dentists. And to me, what that speaks to, is in, is that in within Mormonism, Mormon marriages in the temple are supposed to be eternal and on the one hand, Hannah Syriac or whatever her name is, or the Deseret News are going to want to claim that Mormon temple marriages have lower divorce rates. I'm not sure that's always something to brag about, if that makes it so. Mormon couples feel like they have no other option other than to off their spouse again, like Lori Vallow or Chad Dabel or all these dentists that have killed their Mormon wives.

John Dehlin [01:05:01] And this, this, I think also relates not just to murder, but to swinging and non monogamy. Because if there's such a stigma against divorce, I know a lot of Mormon couples that maybe wouldn't have gotten married when they got married. Maybe they wouldn't have had as many kids as they had. Maybe they wouldn't have married who they married if they had had more opportunities to just naturally explore. But now they're 10 or 20 years into a marriage, they don't want to face the stigma of a divorce to their parents, to their grandparents, to their community.

John Dehlin [01:05:31] And so as I understand it, swinging and or non monogamy, polyamory are ways to be able to have experiences or explore that you should have had when you were young. But you can't escape the bonds of marriage without facing huge social stigma. So it's a way to have some flexibility in a marriage that you feel maybe isn't quite what you wanted or just to kind of, again, reclaim a life you should have had earlier. Any thoughts on that?

Britt Hartley [01:06:01] There's also. Go ahead, Go ahead, Sam.

Samantha Shelley [01:06:04] Asia.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:06:04] Yeah, Britt.

John Dehlin [01:06:05] Britt, then. Sam.

Britt Hartley [01:06:08] Well, now I forgot. I was gonna say.

Samantha Shelley [01:06:09] Okay, I was just gonna say. Yes. I think what, what you just said was dead on, John. And I also think there's probably a lot of people who do love their spouses and, you know, like, want to continue having a life with them and, and like, their spouse represents, like, security in the world and like, attachment and like, they're raising kids and they want to keep doing all that and they want to be able to have, like, you know, experience sexual freedom that they didn't get to experience. Like, I'm, I'm just saying this just to not, yeah. Create like such a story of, like, if someone's doing non monogamy, then their marriage inherently has. There has to be something wrong with it.

John Dehlin [01:06:46] No, it's not.

Samantha Shelley [01:06:46] But I think what you said was still 100%.

John Dehlin [01:06:48] And Britt, I hope you can remember what you're going to say, but I'll just give you more time. This person that I spoke to 10 years ago where I was Living before told me that only people in really, really strong, healthy marriages should even consider polyamory or swinging or non monogamy because it requires so much communication, so much consent. And he said he and his wife engaged in swinging because their relationship was so healthy.

John Dehlin [01:07:15] It was just a way to make it even better. Now I've seen a lot of marriages that weren't doing well where swinging in or non monogamy became, you know, the beginning of the end of their marriage or maybe their marriage was already ending and non monogamy or swinging is what they did as a last ditch effort to try and save what was likely to be a failing marriage. But Samantha, you make an important point that sometimes it's what people do to enhance, I guess in theory an already good marriage marriage. Although my experience is many of the marriages and relationships that I've seen enter into non monogamy or swinging end up in divorce. That's just my experience, especially here. Especially here in Utah.

Samantha Shelley [01:07:54] Yeah. Just given the context.

John Dehlin [01:07:55] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:07:55] Who's usually going into it?

John Dehlin [01:07:57] Britt, did you, did you remember what

Britt Hartley [01:07:58] you're going to say? So my just on that my experience is, is the same usually I see it end in, in divorce. And there's two couples that I know personally who had the kind of marriage where there, there was some openness in the marriage sexually. And for the one that I'm thinking of, she was bisexual and wanted to explore that part of, of her own sexuality and, but still loved her husband. And they had excellent communication, they had excellent therapy, they had a truly healthy, magical, amazing marriage. And because they had all of that education and they had a good marriage, I've seen that be able to be functional.

Britt Hartley [01:08:38] So like you said, Sam, it's not necessarily a bad thing, but it happens so rarely in Mormonism that someone has that much therapy and sexual education to be able to actually make that work in a way that is mutually beneficial for everyone. And then to John, what you were saying before, I think there also is an element of control that we see come out because when you were talking about Mormon dentists that murder their wives, there was a moment, this is later on, a little bit later on in the show. But, but, but I feel like it's relevant where, you know, Jen's husband or Jen goes silent for a little bit, nobody can get a hold of her.

Britt Hartley [01:09:11] And it's literally a thought in the group that her husband is so controlling. And it's not that Mormonism creates maybe narcissists or controlling personalities, but patriarchy certainly can fuel it. And so there's this moment where he's being really controlling. It's a really, he's really showing some, some narcissism, some, some really intense abuse, I would say controlling abuse. And she goes silent. And it's literally in the group that they start saying, like, maybe I watch too much True Crime, but like, we need to check on her and make sure that she's okay, that she's alive. And that was an actual conversation that they had in the group because there is an element of control that is exacerbated by certain doctrines in Mormonism.

Britt Hartley [01:09:57] Maybe not cause, but certainly exacerbated that the man is in control and is the head of the family and you are not obeying and you deserve this or, you know, and that can go to violent extremes and, and really be abused in the church. And so that was an actual conversation of them having to check on Jen to make sure that Zach didn't kill her because he was that controlling.

John Dehlin [01:10:22] And Alyssa, I, I don't know what you're about to say, but I do know that your interview on more Mormon stories, you talk about a first marriage where you experience some of these patriarchal sort of dynamics that, that Britt's talking about. I recommend highly Alyssa Witbeck's Mormon story for, for that reason. But, but what were you going to say, Alyssa?

Alyssa Witbeck [01:10:40] Yeah, I was just gonna go back just a little bit that I think part of why this particular scandal blew up so much in relation to their non monogamy is because all of their marriages ended in divorce. The, the, the couples that were involved. And I think that, you know, shows. And, and Taylor said something too about how all of the relationships were already kind of going downhill and so they were kind of using that as a way to try and spice things up or, or they were just having fun and it just ended up playing a part in their divorce. But I do think the fact that we're seeing all these Mormon divorces from young ages also really, like, salacious and interesting to the viewer, which I think is partially why it exploded.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:11:19] And I wanted to mention something that I don't think has been in the show that I can recall is Taylor was saying that part of. Oh, and this is. I think I thought of this because Britt was saying something about how sometimes people will experiment with non, non monogamy because they're bisexual and are trying to explore their sexuality. And yeah, that I guess, is partially why it started for the Secret Lives of Women Wives Mom Talk Group, because Taylor said that they were at the after hours of a party, everybody was drinking. And in the typical way of fetishizing lesbian women, the husbands were saying, like, ooh, you know, be really hot.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:11:54] As if our wives made out with each other. And that's kind of how things took off from there. So it just seems like. Yeah, I think that's just part of just a note, I guess, the fact

Samantha Shelley [01:12:06] that it started because the men, the patriarchy okayed it. Thank God.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:12:11] Yeah, we have one. Consistent all the way through.

John Dehlin [01:12:15] Julia writes an important comment. She writes, I was told by my B Way professor to never withhold sex or my husband would turn to porn, cheating, and masturbation. So that's another. Another part of kind of that dark element of sexuality as it's impacted on particularly Mormon women.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:12:36] And they also. I think that that's part of what is so fascinating about episode one, which, by the way, I feel like the storytelling of episode one was. Was pretty weak in comparison to other episodes. So if you just watched episode one and you were like, this is not that great. Keep watching.

Samantha Shelley [01:12:50] The.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:12:51] The narrative arcs get much better.

John Dehlin [01:12:53] I almost wanted to quit after episode one.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:12:55] I felt like episode one, now I'm hooked. Right. I feel like they just did not do a good job at laying out the characters or telling the story anyway. But really early on, we see Taylor, and I can't remember which. Which other woman it was that she was talking with. Was it Macy's? Macy, yeah. And she was talking about, like, how her husband doesn't initiate sex enough and how she's, you know, feeling like there's something lacking there. So it just seems like even though these women weren't part of the swinging scandal, and even though they're all married, sex is just such a forefront, it seems like, in these friendships and these relationships and trying to, like, navigate, because even then she doesn't know, like, what to do about it.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:13:34] She doesn't quite know how to talk to him about it, which I think maybe goes. I mean, part of it could just be gossiping with a friend, but I think part of that does go back to the pressures within Mormonism, especially about the stigma of women's sexuality with a poor sex ed where people don't utilize sex toys or don't know how to have an orgasm, don't know how to find a good balance with your spouse because you didn't have sex before marriage and now you have kids and now maybe you're not on the same page and you're not quite sure how to go forward. It just seems like so much of this is really framed by purity culture and how purity culture is harming even the most privileged, wealthy women. They're still, you know, victims in. In that particular element.

John Dehlin [01:14:17] Yeah. Let me quick remind everyone to please, like this episode and please subscribe to this channel. That will really help this episode, you know, be pushed by the algorithms on YouTube. It would be great. Okay, let's keep going. We're covering really important topics.

Can the Show Change Mormon Culture

John Dehlin [01:14:35] I. I was really interested that the New York Times article was entitled One of the Two that I saw. This is an opinion piece. And the question was, can the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives change a conservative religious Culture? And if y' all remember, the way that they were framing their intention for doing Secret Lives of Mormon Wives was that they wanted to make a bigger tent within Mormonism. As someone who's tried that, that didn't end so well for me. And I'm curious what y' all thought about the intention of these women to be. To change Mormonism. And Britt, I'll let you start because you're gonna have to leave us early. So, Britt, you go first.

Guest [01:15:20] Yeah.

Britt Hartley [01:15:21] Is it gonna change Mormonism from. From looking at TikTok. And it's really interesting to see kind of a non. Non member perspective on the show, and I've just been watching a lot of people's commentary on it. There's this sense that because everyone else sees that the most unhealthy relationships in this spectrum are the ones who are members. The ones who are more on the inactive side, have much more partnership kind of marriages. Except can. I think we can say that their relationships, at least from how the characters are portrayed on the show, they. It looks healthier. And so when the, you know, the Mormons are saying, we're just. We're trying to really change Mormonism and we're progressives.

Samantha Shelley [01:16:05] Right.

Britt Hartley [01:16:05] And it's just they. They say, like, we're progressive. And the outside world is looking at this like they are Serena in hand, you know, in the Handmaid's Tale. Because everybody else else sees the purity culture, the unhealthiness, the internalized patriarchy, how controlling these guys are, how unhealthy their sexual dynamics are. Everybody else outside of the bubble sees it. And so it's really interesting to see that nobody's buying this message that we're progressive because, you know, it's just still so entrenched in purity culture that it's not maybe quite so progressive from the output outside as maybe they feel like they're doing on the inside. But.

John Dehlin [01:16:47] But that's all true. And Just the fact that Whitney's drinking alcohol with her husband for the first time, that's edgy for orthodox believing, faithful Mormons, at least the ones that aren't kind of breaking the rules in secret or like the way that they're wearing clothes that aren't, quote, modest from a Mormon perspective. Or the fact that they're going to Vegas.

Britt Hartley [01:17:09] Interesting, though, that they don't fear excommunication, because we know that that excommunication now isn't about. We saw you drink a sip of champagne on national television. So you're going to come into a disciplinary hearing or. None of these girls, not only have they not been called in for church discipline, but they're. It's not even on their radar. I've seen them on podcasts. Be asked, aren't you afraid you're going to be excommunicated? It doesn't even come up as a fear for them. Let me go.

John Dehlin [01:17:37] Oh, go ahead. Oh, I. Sorry. Keep. Keep going. I want to play a clip in that context.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:17:42] Yeah.

Britt Hartley [01:17:42] Because as you know, John, it doesn't matter what your behavior is in the church when it comes to excommunication. It. It only matters if you're directly and publicly speaking against the church, which they're not really doing. And so there's no fear of excommunication.

John Dehlin [01:17:56] Yeah. Yeah. And for those who don't know, in 2015, I was excommunicated literally for doing this podcast and for advocating for things the church didn't like, like same sex marriage and. And ordination of women. But let's go ahead and play a clip where I believe it's. Whitney is asked literally if she's worried about excommunication. I thought this was interesting. Is there fear of being excommunicated from the church? Because I feel like that's something people who aren't Mormon, we hear about that on other reality shows that sort of delve into the Mormon culture. Like, is there. Are you scared at all of that?

Guest [01:18:31] Do you care?

Samantha Shelley [01:18:33] No.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:18:34] None of us are getting excommunicated from doing this TV show.

Guest [01:18:37] You have to do something, like, really bad. I feel like for that to happen.

John Dehlin [01:18:41] Yeah. And also when we were talking with Taylor earlier, she said there's a temple and something. She said it might be harder for the girls who are more so in that sector of like, I think it was temple endowed.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:18:54] Temple endowed.

John Dehlin [01:18:55] We weren't familiar.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:18:56] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:18:57] So are you both temple endowed?

Samantha Shelley [01:18:59] Yes.

Guest [01:18:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:19:00] Because she was saying that it might be trickier for the girls who fall in that category.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:19:03] Do you think that is the case

John Dehlin [01:19:04] or it's kind of the same across the board.

Guest [01:19:07] Yeah, no, because, like, we wouldn't have done anything to get excommunicated. Like, that's more so, like, for infidelity or like something really bad, like maybe you killed someone or something. Like, it's. It's really extreme to get excommunicated. Like, you have to be, like, breaking, like, you know, like, big covenants.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:19:25] Wait, but you.

John Dehlin [01:19:26] You said infidelity. Did the swinging thing ever count as infidelity or was it just. It's whole different ball game.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:19:33] But Taylor wasn't endowed. Yeah, she's not out.

John Dehlin [01:19:38] Gotcha.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:19:39] Yeah, and none of the other girls

Guest [01:19:40] were, like, involved with that who were endowed, so. Yeah, so there was no issues.

John Dehlin [01:19:48] Yeah, so that's kind of really.

Britt Hartley [01:19:50] Who did you kill, John? Who did you murder?

Alyssa Witbeck [01:19:52] Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [01:19:53] Oh, oh, right, right. Because you're saying you have to do something really bad.

Britt Hartley [01:19:57] You do something really bad.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:19:58] Really, really bad.

John Dehlin [01:20:00] Yeah, yeah, no, it's. It's worth noting. I just have a slide up. My friend Nemo the Mormon. He's a UK YouTuber, podcaster, the leading social media Britt, uh, in Mormonism. He was just summoned to a disciplinary council over the weekend, and he is set to be excommunicated for the crime of having a YouTube channel that criticizes the church and speaks openly about the church. So that's interesting. But. But what about this idea? I mean, so, number one, they're not worried about excommunication. Do you guys remember in the episode when Taylor expressed a concern about excommunication? Do you want to talk about that, Alyssa?

Alyssa Witbeck [01:20:41] Yeah, I was really surprised by that. And it's interesting that she said that she was concerned about excommunication, but Whitney has not said that when Whitney is the one who is, you know, more devout right now. But I guess, I don't know. I mean, I think, like, I think so much of it is probably based on optics on why they would or wouldn't be concerned about excommunication. Because Taylor is seen, especially before this show, and in some ways rightfully so, because she has made, you know, decisions that she has admitted are poor, has done some wild things. But Whitney, I think you can really save yourself from getting excommunicated by just claiming over and over again that you love the church if you have a giant picture of Jesus on your wall.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:21:24] You know, you just only say positive things about the church. It seems like that matters so much less to the, you know, to church leadership than talking negatively about the church at all. And so, yeah, I think that's interesting. But it was also interesting that Taylor said that she, at that point, I know that she had a little bit of a come to Jesus and wanted to stay in the church more later, but the fact that even early on, even when she was in her, you know, before she got arrested, she was still kind of especially messy and wild, that excommunication still has such a stigma that it scared her.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:21:56] And maybe it has such a stigma that the other women just have to pretend like it's not even an option because it's, they just can't even think about it because of the stakes are, are too high.

John Dehlin [01:22:05] Yeah. Do you want to talk about excommunication?

Britt Hartley [01:22:09] I want to talk, I want to follow about, follow up about one thing that, that you said before I have to leave here. The one comment that I really wanted to make on this episode, because it's the one that comes up the most often in my work, is this come to Jesus moment that you just mentioned. And the thing before I have to slip away and leave, the thing that I have to talk about with Mormonism is this, this flip flopping between order and chaos that Mormons will often do, that I see every day, which is you go to church for a while, you kind of don't believe some things, maybe you go inactive for a little bit and then you start drinking or doing things that you regret or you spend a night in jail or whatever happens.

Britt Hartley [01:22:55] And in that moment you need, need some structure. Your life sucks. You need something. And the only thing in Utah county, the only thing that looks put together and structured and ordered and happy and safe for kids is Mormonism. That's the only tool that you have in your tool belt. So then you go back for a while and you're going to church because it's good for your kids. And then, you know, things start bothering you, you take a break because of some rhetoric you heard, you know, Oak say or something like that. And then, then you go, you swing off into chaos. And when your life doesn't feel like it's going well, the only tool, and I see people for 20, 30 years do that cycle and I see Taylor really stuck in this cycle of the only order and structure, the only tools that she has available in her life is Mormonism.

Britt Hartley [01:23:44] And so she's swinging back and forth because she doesn't have any other way to structure a health, healthy life and education to help her structure a healthy life for herself and her children other than Mormonism. And when you Watch Taylor's story. And if you watch it in the context of this swing between order and chaos, you can see that dynamic really clearly. And it's something that I see happen a lot in coaching, which is people who have done that cycle for 10 years and then they'll, they'll come to coaching and just say, help me. You know, sometimes I try to go to church, sometimes I take a break that doesn't seem.

Britt Hartley [01:24:22] And they just kind of swing back and forth. Because if Mormonism is the only tool set that you get for ritual and community and rites of passage and contemplation and quiet time and awe and transcendence and moral education, if Mormonism is your only access to those tools, then you'll just always be swinging back and forth. And that's something that I just see all the time. And I especially see Taylor's story in that.

John Dehlin [01:24:48] Yeah. So in some ways, ex Mormons go harder than never Mormons in terms of, because they never learned how responsible alcohol use, they never learned about consent or moderation. And so there's kind of like this. Never tried alcohol, never tried marijuana, only had sex with your, with the person you married. And then you leave the church and then you can, or, or question the church or doubt the church or, or even you're still believing, but you can no longer live up to the standards. And then you just swing to the other, no pun intended. You swing to the other side in more radical ways than never. Mormons are like, what is up with you? What is up with you Mormons?

Britt Hartley [01:25:32] And then a couple years later when your life is in shambles, I'll see these people go back to a Mormon ward or you'll see, even see this in, in Christianity. You'll see these really big stars that have been way off in the deep end.

Britt Hartley [01:25:45] You know, I wasn't going to say any names. Russell Brand was in, was a, was one recently too, where because they find no tools out there, they essentially then get re baptized and they jump right back on into the religion. And then after a while they'll see them kind of, you know, they'll be repressing things and then that'll come out and they'll have a bender for a weekend and you'll see them in rehab. And I see people really go through, you know, it's a cycle that people go through even outside of Christianity. But when your only tools in Utah county is Mormonism, it's, it's incredibly problematic because then you're always swinging kind of way out and your life can be really chaotic.

Britt Hartley [01:26:30] And then you're. And then you come back for a little bit and then out and back, and it's just really. It's really tough to build a life that way in a healthy way, because you're swinging back and forth rather than finding actual healthy tools and education for building a life that isn't dependent on Mormon beliefs.

John Dehlin [01:26:49] And part of what's dark and insidious about it, from the church's perspective, is they kind of win either way. If you're ultra devout and committed, did they win? If you leave faithfulness and become extreme in your behavior on the other side, then you're the cautionary tale they can point to and say, look how bad those people are who left the church. Don't leave the church, or you'll become bad like those other people. And then if those people again fall on really hard times and then come crawling back to the church faithful again, because they. They are now the prodigal son or daughter that's returned, well, now the church is won again, because now they're able to come back and tell all the young men and the young women, don't be like me.

John Dehlin [01:27:34] I was doing really bad things. And now I'm back and I'm faithful. And so the church like. And that's where I always say the church has monetized sexual shame as sort of its secret ingredient to financial success. Now, Britt, I don't want to keep you when you got to go. Can you plug your. Your book and your podcast and your Tick Tock channel really quick?

Britt Hartley [01:27:56] Sure. So you can find me anywhere at no Nonsense Spirituality. I have a book for tools on how to build a healthy spiritual path. If that last little bit that I was talking about resonated with you, you can find me on Tick Tock. And, yeah, thanks for having me, John. And thanks for the conversation, guys.

John Dehlin [01:28:14] And you do coaching as well, right?

Britt Hartley [01:28:16] I do coaching as well.

John Dehlin [01:28:17] Okay. All right. And I'm mad at you for leaving early. You lose two points.

Britt Hartley [01:28:23] You'll forgive me?

John Dehlin [01:28:24] I will, I will. Thanks, Britt. It's always awesome. You take care, and we'll see you soon. Bye, Britt. Did y' all have any other reactions to. To kind of this, or should we move on?

Alyssa Witbeck [01:28:35] I was just gonna say really quickly that I feel like Mormons have been really against this show for the most part. I've had pretty negative responses, feeling like this does not represent, you know, my church. But I feel like, especially in the first couple episodes, they should be feeling very empowered by the story of Taylor that we're seeing because I feel like it's. It is kind of the archetype that you were talking about, John, of, you know, everybody knows that, you know, every ex woman that you talk to says that they tell their parents that they left the church, and their parents say, oh, you know, you're gonna go do these bad things.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:29:07] It's just a phase. And then you'll come back. Once you. Once you realize that you need stability once you have kids and, you know, you know that your children need to have something stable. Like, I do feel like Taylor's journey really falls into that trailer rope that so many people will. Will talk about.

John Dehlin [01:29:23] Yeah. Yeah. All right, well, this has been great so far. We've got 1500 people joining on the live stream. Welcome you all again. Maven is going to be starring the comments and the questions. We would love to take some of your comments and questions. Please do subscribe to the channel on YouTube Mormon Stories podcast and like this episode. That'll help with the algorithms. We always appreciate the super chats and the donations. Let's dig in to the plot, to the basic plot of episodes one and two. Is that all right?

Samantha Shelley [01:29:56] Yeah, let's see.

John Dehlin [01:29:57] Okay. So it starts off with, you know, a discussion between Taylor and her mom, Margi felt. My wife, Margi felt like the dynamics between adult children and Mormon parents were really interesting. In this case, Taylor was talking to her mom, basically telling her mom what? That she's pregnant and, you know, and then eventually that she and Dakota are probably going to be an item and are going to be moving in together. What do you all want to say about Taylor's conversations with her mom throughout the entire episodes? I mean. Yeah, I mean, we can kit that now.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:30:35] Yeah, it is. It is interesting. I totally agree with. With Margi, as always, is that there is this. This expectation for adult children to be constantly seeking approval and permission from their parents and how that doesn't really stop. And that seemed to be the case with Whitney as well. Yeah. And I found it really interesting just how nervous Taylor was to, you know, a woman with two children, how nervous she was to talk to her mom about, you know, this boyfriend and. And taking aside, you know, the complexities of Dakota, I know that. That, you know, is a different can of worms, but just her saying, like, I might be pregnant, and just how devastated Taylor's mom was, and she said, you know, you're stupid. I'm disappointed in you. You know, those were the words that. That we saw. Yeah, it was. It was very interesting dynamic to see for sure.

John Dehlin [01:31:24] Sam, what do you think? I. I've met your mom and you weren't raised Mormon and your mom's never been Mormon and I've never met your dad. But I mean, as an outsider, as someone who understands non Mormon parenting, do you. Do you have any insight on the parenting, adult children, parent relationships in the show?

Samantha Shelley [01:31:43] Well, I suppose Taylor's mom, to me, they sort of seem to have that dynamic that is somewhat familiar to me within Mormonism, where it's almost like the mum is like an extension of like the. The child's friendship group. Like, I think it was episode two with the baby shower, so maybe I'm jumping ahead. But just like the mum calling Whitney to be like, why aren't you at the baby shower? It. It felt familiar to me. Like where the mum is. Is like just weirdly part of it in a way that, I mean, like, my mum would like, not get involved in my. Also I just like, have a non woman mother. That doesn't mean that she's like the pinnacle anything.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:32:19] It's Sam's mom is the pinnacle.

Samantha Shelley [01:32:22] But, yeah, I don't know. And then there was a moment where Taylor was telling her mum how she'd got through this probation period where she was having to go to a meeting once a month, but now, because she'd completed that stage of the process, now it was every six months, and she was sort of telling her mum this, kind of looking for her mum to give her a little pat on the back and be like, good for you. I'm glad we're on to the next stage. And her mum just was like, well, we shouldn't be going at all. Like, just again pointing out like, this shouldn't have happened.

Samantha Shelley [01:32:50] And it's like, yeah, no, like, obviously Taylor's not like happy that the arrest happened and all that, but it's like she was wanting to. To share progress with her mum and like, I assume feel validated or supported. And the mum was just like, I don't know, just still.

John Dehlin [01:33:07] Yeah, I felt torn. I. I didn't love the mom at first. She would do these little digs. Like, you should have never got pregnant in the first place. We shouldn't be here. She was pressuring, like, Taylor's saying, you know, Dakota's gonna move in with me. And the mom's like, that should only happen if you're married. Like, what an awful thing to pressure someone who's already shown probably some struggles with mental illness or something, has already had serial relationships that weren't healthy, presumably. And then to like say you better hurry and marry that guy who's the father of your current child. Rush into another marriage because heaven forbid you would be living together and not be married and having sex. Like, isn't that troubling when a parent is more concerned that you're married because you might have sex than they are that you actually marry someone who's compatible and healthy for you?

Samantha Shelley [01:34:05] I found it so troubling how lightly they seem to take like the mum of it all. Like it's called mum talk. But they're not really. They're really just like these teenagers developmentally or like these. They're supposed to. I mean they are mothers, but they're so clearly just like women who are desperate for individuation outside of the role of mum.

Samantha Shelley [01:34:27] And it's just coming out in like really strange ways that just make you think, like, should these people be mothers? You know? But like when she was talking to, when Taylor was talking to her parents and she's about to have a newborn child with Dakota, and they're more concerned about her keeping like the Mormon rule of not living with a partner before marriage than the fact that she's about to have a newborn baby. She's gonna need like round the clock. And even just the way they were calling it, like Dakota helping her with the baby instead of like you bringing a human into the world and like, you know, should be united in that.

Samantha Shelley [01:35:01] And it seems like whether or not they're married and living together is the least of anyone's concern. Like, it's just bizarre are how like that arbitrary rule became more important than really like the well being of child and mother. Because like a baby typically is going to benefit from both parents being there.

John Dehlin [01:35:18] And I want to get you in on this, Alyssa, but. But for those who have never been Mormon, what we're dealing with here is the fact that the Book of Mormon literally teaches that sex outside of marriage is a sin next to murder. And I'm not exaggerating, I think it's even brought up at some point in the series. Premarital sex or extramarital sex is viewed as a sin next to murder in severity. There's murder and then there's sex outside of marriage. And so that's why, I mean that's, that's why we can give Taylor's mom a little bit of slack. She's just basically saying she doesn't want her daughter to commit the sin next to murder, you know, so. So Alyssa, any other comments about that?

Taylor and Whitney's Family Dynamics

Alyssa Witbeck [01:35:57] I was just gonna say that the Main reason why I give give both Taylor's mom and Whitney's mom a little bit of slack is just the fact that they are on this show anyway when it's the. The daughters that are, you know, Internet famous. And obviously they agreed and consented to be on the show and be filmed. But they have much less, you know, they're much less used to comments, used to kind of, like, Persona. And so I am trying to go into this giving grace to the women who, like, found themselves on a reality TV show because of their daughter jobs.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:36:29] And so they may not realize, like, I was thinking about that a lot with the conversation that Britt was mentioning where Whitney is talking about possibly doing a brand deal with a vibe raider. And Whitney's mom was extremely. Just uncomfortable. And I clearly uncomfortable talking about it in front of a camera.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:36:46] And I was thinking, you know, she's probably uncomfortable in front of a camera anyway. And so then adding these sensitive topics I think is, you know, there. It's a lot, especially early on in a season, and they're probably still trying to kind of juggle what character they want to present anyway.

John Dehlin [01:37:00] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:37:01] And I feel like Taylor's mums kind of what to me read as a little bit harsh or, you know, she's just constantly wanting to reinforce that, like, you should be doing the right Mormon thing. I feel like we can all empathize with that being such a classic Mormon parent strategy of where, you know, the church has taught you this is how you teach children. This is how you keep kids safe. You need to make sure they're adhering to these rules, you know, having these thoughts and behaviors. And. And that's kind of, in a lot of cases, that's all Mormon parents really know how to do is to just like, reinforce that, because that's what they're told told good parenting is.

Samantha Shelley [01:37:37] So it's like. And again, a classic Mormon thing is never wanting to validate someone's feelings or validate, like, someone in a way that would in any way imply that you're. You're giving the okay to a behavior that your church doesn't agree with. And it is complex.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:37:55] Yeah, it's also complex because, like you were saying how Leanne kind of seems like a. An extension of the friend group. I think within Mormonism, especially for Mormon moms, there's that idea that, you know, your child's successes and failures are your own successes and failures, and that is, you know, can be told to people pretty explicitly with, if your children leave the church, it is a failing on you as a parent. And so I think that that is probably. I think maybe that's partially why Leanne feels like she cannot give an inch, because even if she says, good job, I'm glad, you know, you're moving

Alyssa Witbeck [01:38:24] forward in your probation, she's like, I can't seem like I'm condoning any of the things that have happened, so I have to make sure, you know, that I am constantly saying why it's not okay so that nobody gets the idea that I'm okay with this, because this is. Looks bad on me now.

Samantha Shelley [01:38:39] Yeah, Shame is the best parenting strategy.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:38:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:42] I mean, I mean, Leanne would come by shame honestly, because the Mormon Church models a sort of parenting from God to the members and from the church to the members. So how can parents not adopt a shame model, a guilt and shame model when they're parenting their children? Also, Leanne ends up being one of the main people that really shows up for Taylor and is really there for her. So we have to give her credit because, I mean, I think she ends up being a pretty phenomenal support throughout the show. I. I don't know. That's my impression. But it's complicated. Yeah. Okay. So that's a little bit about Taylor and her mom, Leanne, and that. That sort of thing. Let's switch to Whitney now and her husband Connor. It was kind of weird that, like, they're all of a sudden coming back from Hawaii. It's like, why did they go to Hawaii?

Alyssa Witbeck [01:39:41] They got to get on that Hawaii Mormon influence.

John Dehlin [01:39:44] And why did they come back all of a sudden? Just coincidentally.

Samantha Shelley [01:39:49] Yeah. I'm sure they were like, well, it's worth going back if the contract is good enough. We're going to talk about the trying, trying champagne for the first time scene, because that completely baffled me.

John Dehlin [01:39:58] Why was that interesting to you? Because, by the way, I've never tried alcohol. I'm 55.

Samantha Shelley [01:40:02] We know, John.

John Dehlin [01:40:03] Still haven't tried alcohol. No. This is non Mormon listeners.

Samantha Shelley [01:40:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:40:07] So it is a big deal for Mormons to drink alcohol or not drink.

Samantha Shelley [01:40:10] It's a huge deal. And to cross that line, as you can attest to, from having never drunk to drinking for the first time, that's a significant moment. Not to say that people don't sometimes cross it casually, but for Whitney, someone who throughout the season is proclaiming to be, you know, on the saints side of the saint synagogue, she starts with alcohol.

John Dehlin [01:40:29] What is that?

Alyssa Witbeck [01:40:30] She's like a 12 out of 10.

Samantha Shelley [01:40:31] But it was so casual. Like, I don't understand. First of all, I Don't believe that that was like their first time trying alcohol. That seems really unlikely, but if it was, they didn't give any, Whitney didn't give any explanation of. You know, I've thought about it and this is why I've decided to break the word of wisdom. It was just like a complete nothing moment. That was just kind of vaguely interesting. Oh, they've never had champagne before. Also a Utah realtor, I doubt they would give you champagne. I feel like that was oh yeah. By the show. So I'm like, what is the explanation for that scene? Why did Whitney want to be seen drinking? Why would she choose that to be her first time drinking? It made no sense to me.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:41:07] I would love to know if that was another moment that kind of shows that non Mormons that are making it and that it's for non Mormons because that is such a wild moment. And perhaps they had a conversation that they cut because. And they made it seem so flippant because for most viewers, just like maybe they wouldn't even consider that drinking alcohol because you just took a second sip, said it's gross, kind of made a big deal about spitting it in the sink, then threw it away. But I think for your average Mormon, especially devout Mormon, even an ex Mormon, the first time you're paying alcohol is.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:41:35] Tends to be very ceremonious, even if you do it quickly. There's a lot of internal dialogue, there's a lot of shame, there's a lot of processing that goes into it. And so it was really interesting how flippant they made it that kind of felt like it was missing the mark on Mormon culture that way.

Samantha Shelley [01:41:49] Yeah. I'm so confused because I'm like for her to be self proclaimed, like believing active Mormon.

John Dehlin [01:41:55] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:41:56] It's like some kind of deconstruction or degradation of faith would have to happen for you to be willing to cross that line. What was it? We don't hear about it. Whisper. But then for the rest of the season, she continues to tell us that she's, you know, active, believing, cares about

Alyssa Witbeck [01:42:10] the church, but she also says oh my God casually.

Samantha Shelley [01:42:12] And she says that, yeah, she swears a lot. And so again, just.

John Dehlin [01:42:15] Yeah, Mormons don't say growing up, you'd never say oh my God. God, that's terrible. It's saying the Lord's name in vain. That's a not Mormon. Say oh my gosh. They say fetch. They say oh my heck. They don't say oh my God.

Samantha Shelley [01:42:28] They will literally have sex before marriage rather than say oh My God. As we learned.

John Dehlin [01:42:32] Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I also just wonder how much Whitney was just trying to, you know, this big ten idea. They're trying to evangelize a big tent Mormonism. I wondered about that. And then I also wondered if. If it's just, like, sitting around thinking, this is reality tv, how do we do something shocking? I know we'll find one of the. One of the cast members who's never tried alcohol, and we'll have this dramatic moment of them drinking alcohol for the first time. Don't you think there's some of.

Samantha Shelley [01:43:06] That didn't make it dramatic? And they gave no explanation for why she was suddenly willing.

John Dehlin [01:43:10] It was weird. It was awful.

Samantha Shelley [01:43:11] So strange. If anyone has a answers, please let us know.

John Dehlin [01:43:14] Yeah, that was weird. Okay. Okay. What about the weirdness around Whitney talking about her husband Connor? And I know this comes up a little bit later, but, you know, basically when Whitney is talking to the girls, the. The women about her husband Connor, she has this big disclosure. Do y' all want to kind of set the stage for that and what you thought of it, Alyssa?

Whitney's Husband's Porn Use and Marriage Struggles

Alyssa Witbeck [01:43:41] Yeah. So. So a little bit earlier, right when they are. When Whitney and Connor are talking, they're the couple that just got back from Hawaii. They say that the reason that they went to Hawaii, they're discussing this before Whitney's talking to the other women is because Connor was.

Samantha Shelley [01:43:56] She.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:43:56] Whitney found out that Connor had been on Tinder, had been messaging and sexting with women throughout their entire marriage. So that's a pretty big.

John Dehlin [01:44:04] Blew me away. How could a marriage survive that? That, like.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:44:09] And it was really strange because then they threw in the porn addiction. So Utah. So Mormon line. But they're also equating these to the same thing where someone using porn and someone, you know, cheating on you with multiple women on Tinder. Sexting other women for the entire marriage. For the entire marriage. For years. Exactly.

Samantha Shelley [01:44:25] Even another one of the girls that was like, oh, well, the porn. The porn addiction. That makes sense that he would be confused sexually. But the why. Yeah, so that was.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:44:34] That's the scene that's happening. As we see Whitney and Connor, they're talking about this. Connor is devastated. He's saying, I've hurt you so much. Whitney is saying she's also devastated. And then Whitney decides that she wants to disclose this to the women. She hasn't disclosed this to anybody, but in order to make mom talk, move forward after the big rift after the scandal, they need to be open about everything. So she goes to. Was it Macy's house? Anyway, they Go to one of the women's houses, they have a big conversation. Whitney says she needs to make this big disclosure, and she tells all the women that Connor, A, had a porn addiction and B, had been having affairs with these women. He said he didn't meet up with any of the women in person, but had been sexting with them throughout the duration of their entire marriage.

John Dehlin [01:45:17] Yeah. And I mean, the porn stuff, it's a huge problem in Mormonism. I've already mentioned that. It's been. It's been shown through, like, pornhub stats or whatever. I'm not sure where that, like, for some weird reason, Utah leads the nation in paid porn use per capita. And it's got to be the don't look at the pink elephant dynamic, where, because the church is always telling Mormon men not to look at pornography, I don't guess they even bother to tell women because women aren't sexual beings. And so they don't need to tell Mormon young women to not look at porn. So they just tell Mormon men every time they turn around, don't look at porn. So Mormon men are constantly thinking about not looking at porn, which means they're constantly looking at porn. Like, that part is normal. Is the Tinder part normal where, like, Mormon men are on Tinder sexting other women for a decade?

Samantha Shelley [01:46:12] I do think there is a common archetype of Mormon man who has, you know, been corralled into living in this purity culture his whole life and, like. And does, like, want to be that, but is constantly having to wrestle with the fact that he's not that. And then, yeah, it's coming out in weird, dysfunctional ways. Like, being on, you know, that's, like, a weird thing to do throughout a whole marriage to be on Tinder, just, like, swapping nudes with people.

Samantha Shelley [01:46:41] But I do think it happens. It's like, just because. Even if. Even if you strongly believe in the ideology and, like, want to be sexually pure, it's just like, because the church's ideas about sexual purity are so rigid and in some ways arbitrary.

Samantha Shelley [01:46:58] It's like, yeah, we're homo sapiens. It's gonna come out in weird ways. Like, people aren't gonna be able to just, like, neatly contain that part of them. And had they, you know, had they. I can just stop talking there. I think.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:47:13] Yeah. I mean, I think it's. It's very common for Mormon men to be looking at porn. We've just established this, and I think it's.

John Dehlin [01:47:20] And hiding it and lying about it and feeling deeply shamed.

Guest [01:47:22] About it.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:47:23] And it's less common for Mormon men to be having affairs on Tinder for years and years. It does happen. But I wonder if part of this dynamic, not just for Connor, this person we don't really know, but just the ways that these things happen, I think, is partially because in Mormonism we have such a black and white mentality on everything that. And this kind of goes back to that boundary conversation we had a little while ago that we have a really hard time being able to differentiate and level of severity. So as soon as someone sins and. And this is a conversation I've had before, you know, when I was lds, people say, oh, well, you know, like, we already did this bad thing.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:48:00] My might as well do this X bad thing, you know, because everything is kind of across the line bad. And so if you. I. I'm would. It would make sense to me for a person who feels guilty but out doing. Using porn or watching porn to then, you know, it makes, you know, it take the next step into having an affair on Tinder. Because the church doesn't do a very good job of differentiating severity levels. Same thing with like, you're either a virgin. Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:48:25] Sit next to murder. So once I've committed this next to murder, like, Tinder is a small deal

Samantha Shelley [01:48:30] and women are objects either way. So whether it's like porn or they're sending you nudes, either way they're just an object.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:48:36] You're like, I'm already doing something to hurt my wife. I might as well, well, you know, do just a tiny bit more. And even when the women are talking about it, they don't seem to be like. Like they kind of put them on a very similar playing field. I felt like, at least from the conversation that was shown, it reminds me

Samantha Shelley [01:48:51] of the Shay Todd's guy who had that webcam affair, I think.

Guest [01:48:55] Oh, yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:48:55] And then like the minute she, like, said something kind of human to him about his kids, about his kids being cute, he just like flipped out on her and was. It's the Madonna whore complex of it all. Like, this whole show could just be called, like, Mormon Madonna whore complex.

Polygamy, Church History, and Doctrine

John Dehlin [01:49:08] Is there anything to the idea that Joseph Smith, the Mormon church's founder, had over 30 wives? That in Doctrine and Covenants, 132 Mormon scripture, polygamy is actually enshrined as Mormon doctrine? Like, is there something in the Mormon male psyche that they're allowed to have multiple women somehow, if not in this life, the next Joseph did it. Do you think that's a thing or is. Am I projecting, like, what I would expect to happen because I'm so salty at Joseph Smith.

Samantha Shelley [01:49:38] I feel like it is just typical repressed male behavior that would be happening regardless. But I don't think it, like, isn't something that, to a man, it's like, well, you know, sometimes God lets men have. You know, it's. It's not. Not a thing. But I don't think it's, like, the thing.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:49:54] And I also think, like, DNC132 and so much of. Of the polygamy conversation has to do with women obeying their husbands. And I think that also has to play a factor. And, like, when you feel like you have a little bit of a position of power, even if you're trying to be equal, it makes sense to kind of just slip in that way and to begin, you know, viewing women more objectively than you otherwise would if you hadn't had all that conditioning.

John Dehlin [01:50:20] Yeah. Okay.

Samantha Shelley [01:50:21] I also feel like the type of women that are in Mum Talk are typically the type of. Of Mormon women that will attract guys that just want, like, the hottest woman they can find. And so there is kind of like a natural, like, objectification of women sort of built into the relationship.

John Dehlin [01:50:39] Absolutely. Okay. And then this is kind of a rumor. These are allegations, but this is stuff that. That friends started telling me. Her Arto mentioned it to me, and I started seeing on Red.

Guest 2 [01:50:53] It.

John Dehlin [01:50:53] There are rumors that Connor wasn't actually on Tinder. There are rumors or allegations that Connor was actually on Grindr. And as I understand it, Grindr is the app for men to find other men and that they. They swapped Tinder out for Grindr. But these are rumors, allegations. This is all gross, seedy stuff, I guess, to be speculating. Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:51:18] Do we know any basis for that rumor? Is there any reason, anyone?

John Dehlin [01:51:22] I mean, it. It's been decently reported, and I've heard this from multiple sources, so main reasons

Alyssa Witbeck [01:51:28] people are saying is because they said sending pictures. You can't send pictures on Tinder.

Samantha Shelley [01:51:32] Well, I just imagine he probably just got their numbers to do that.

John Dehlin [01:51:35] Well, okay, so y' all haven't. Haven't heard those. Those rumors, but actually he's been seeking men because there's a point where. Didn't Whitney say something about him being confused? And when you're, like, looking at porn, man. Looking at female porn or sexting. I don't use the word confused there. Right.

Samantha Shelley [01:51:56] He was looking at porn, so he was confused. Yeah, I don't. I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:52:00] So anyway, I'd have to know More

Samantha Shelley [01:52:02] about what the rumors are.

John Dehlin [01:52:04] Okay, so y' all haven't heard much about that?

Alyssa Witbeck [01:52:06] Not really. Not enough to speculate on.

Samantha Shelley [01:52:08] Yeah. And I feel like with a show this big, like a rumor like that will, like, simply exist just regardless. So it's hard to say.

John Dehlin [01:52:14] Yeah. Okay. All right. I just thought if viewers or listeners want to email us or want to make comments about that, if anyone knows more about that, let us know. Okay. As they were introducing Michaela, there was a bomb that got dropped. As far as I'm concerned, they're basically introducing Michaela and they mentioned that she had a baby at age 16 as a Mormon girl. And then they just casually dropped that the guy that she had a baby with was 21. And I don't know much. I'm not a lawyer, but I do the math. As I understand it, minors aren't supposed to be having sex with adults. A 21 year old, 5 years older, having sex with the 16 year old, immediately I was thinking statutory rape.

Samantha Shelley [01:52:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:52:58] And then I look up Romeo and Juliet laws in Utah, and I discovered that as long as you're less than 10 years older and the woman or the. Or the younger person's over 16, so 16 or 17, as long as you're 26, you can have sex with the 16 year old in Utah. And as long as you're 17, you can have sex with the 17 year old. And that's called Romeo. Romeo and Juliet laws. Now, I'm not a lawyer. I could be wrong. Were y' all shocked at the. At the statutory rape sort of age differential there or. No, not. I guess it's not statutory rape in Utah. Did y' all even notice that?

Alyssa Witbeck [01:53:36] Definitely noticed.

John Dehlin [01:53:37] Okay.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:53:38] Definitely.

John Dehlin [01:53:39] Yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:53:40] Yeah. And the fact that they're still together was interesting. We didn't really get a lot about her and their dynamics.

John Dehlin [01:53:47] Kind of brushed over that.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:53:48] Yeah, they brushed over that, which did feel very odd.

John Dehlin [01:53:51] Yeah. Did you notice that, Samantha?

Samantha Shelley [01:53:53] I think I was just mostly focused on the. Her having a baby at 16, but I didn't. I don't remember if I heard the. The 21 thing, but that is pretty wild that a 16 year old can have sex with someone up to 26.

Britt Hartley [01:54:05] Yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:54:06] 10 years. That feels.

Samantha Shelley [01:54:07] I'm like, I. I kind of understand, like the premise a little bit of a law like that, but I feel like 10 years is like an insane, insane amount. Like, I feel like it should be like two years or, you know, I mean, just so they're really close in age.

John Dehlin [01:54:21] Yeah. Trevor, our good friend Trevor, Anon. He's actually citing Utah code 76. 5. 401. 1.2 because I'm pretty sure I looked it up and someone else, Christiana Claire Georges, says yes, John, that is true. So I think that is that what I just stated is Utah law. And you know, again, we can't discount the fact that Joseph Smith as like a 38 year old was marrying 14 year olds if he wouldn't fall under

Samantha Shelley [01:54:51] Romeo and Juliet laws.

John Dehlin [01:54:53] Well, no, but I mean if a state was going to have. Have lenient Romeo at Romeo and Juliet laws, the. The state who's the founder of the predominant religion, the state was a 38 year old marrying 14 year olds. You might think that state is going to be the most lenient. Yeah, and I think it is the most lenient.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:55:11] I think it's just a good example of how there's just echoes of Mormonism and church history throughout so much of this story. Even. Even these quick things that you might not expect it.

John Dehlin [01:55:22] Yeah. So there's this brunch scene at. I think it's called Sunday's Best or so, you know, brunch hard. I've been there. It's great. Where, where Taylor is meeting with some friends and she talks about some breast augmentation she had. Did y' all find anything interesting about that brunch?

Alyssa Witbeck [01:55:41] Well, I just. I just loved it. They were talking about plastic surgery so much throughout this when we just did an episode about plastic surgery recently and how open they were about that.

John Dehlin [01:55:50] Didn't one of the women touched the other woman's breast in the restaurant? Did y' all notice that?

Alyssa Witbeck [01:55:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:55:57] Does that happen normally? Is that a thing?

Samantha Shelley [01:56:00] Like that's normal?

John Dehlin [01:56:01] Is that normal?

Samantha Shelley [01:56:02] It's just gals.

John Dehlin [01:56:03] Okay. Okay.

Samantha Shelley [01:56:03] Fill in a new boob job.

John Dehlin [01:56:05] Okay. Okay.

Samantha Shelley [01:56:05] It's not a big deal.

John Dehlin [01:56:06] All right. As a repressed Mormon man, that was shocking to me. I'm just gonna. I'm just gonna confess. All right, I'll see my therapist about that.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:56:15] There you go.

John Dehlin [01:56:17] All right. So Whitney and Connor, we already talked about that. And the porn addiction, the sexting, Whitney revealing. What did you guys think about Whitney revealing what to her, to her friends was such a traumatic thing? Her reveal about Connor and then Taylor immediately, immediately. Just following it up with her ectopic pregnancy. Did y' all think that was off? Did y' all think that was interesting? Clearly Whitney was upset by it.

Samantha Shelley [01:56:47] I couldn't quite tell because it didn't seem like Taylor was uncaring. But I feel like Taylor maybe just thought like this was a girl's hangout we're all sharing right now was kind of the vibe I got. But maybe Taylor wasn't cluing in on the fact that, to Whitney, like, this hangout was happening to be, like, her thing. Her. I don't know. I couldn't really tell. But the other girls described them both as being kind of alpha. And so maybe they're just each used to kind of having the spotlight, and it was just a bit of a clash.

John Dehlin [01:57:14] Introducing the power struggle. That's gonna be a core theme, maybe.

Samantha Shelley [01:57:18] Yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:57:18] And, I mean, it is hard to tell too, like, how much of the conversation they're cutting. But, yeah, I thought it was really interesting because I think we just kind of see that tension in their relationship so much.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:57:28] And I had mixed feelings because on the one hand, I was thinking, like, Taylor, you know, hold on. Give her a little bit more validation first. Like, hear her out. But then on the other hand, it seemed like, yeah, they were kind of both mutually sharing. Like, it seems kind of, I don't know, surprising that Whitney was, like, revealing this thing. That would be kind of embarrassing. She's like, no, I want to linger on this more embarrassing detail more.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:57:52] It could be that Taylor was, like, trying to be like, I have my shit too. Like, I'm trying to, you know, take. Take the attention off so that it feels less embarrassing in some ways. So I don't know. Those types of. Of, like, you know, trauma conversation dynamics are really hard.

Samantha Shelley [01:58:07] One thing I did notice about that conversation is, so Taylor's saying she had a miscarriage. And then one of the other girls said to her, are you gonna be more careful moving forward? Like, as in, like, you're gonna be careful not to have a baby with this guy. Right. And then Taylor was like, I'm just, like, so, like, overwhelmed right now. Like, just didn't respond. Like, it was so clear that they. They, like, at least passively wanted to try and have a child during this super turbulent early time in their relationship where she's nowhere near ready to decide whether she wants to marry this guy again? Just the casualness with which children are all a part of this is so disturbing to me.

John Dehlin [01:58:42] And isn't that a really important on brand Mormon theme about women having way too many babies way too early? Is that Mormon?

Alyssa Witbeck [01:58:50] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:58:51] And it's also giving, like, the Kardashians. So that's. Seems there's some culture that I just, like, don't understand or relate to that is just so eager to. To have a child in a new relationship to kind of, like, Lock it down. Solidify it. Yeah, but she didn't want to even lock him down, so that's why it's confusing.

John Dehlin [01:59:08] Yeah. All right, well, episode one ends sort of featuring Taylor and Dakota, and they meet at Tsunami, one of my favorite sushi restaurants. The show is not endorsed by Tsunami, but I do love it. It's a sushi. Yeah, maybe, sure.

Taylor's Relationship Red Flags and Arrest

Alyssa Witbeck [01:59:25] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:59:26] Call me up. Tsunami. They're talking about marriage. You know, Taylor. No, sorry. Dakota mentions, you know, that he. He's clean, he's sober. Apparently it's from fentanyl, which is pretty serious, right? Pretty serious. Addiction slash sobriety. I was so. I was shocked by. By Dakota basically saying, I'm an addict and I'm sober. And then basically Taylor saying, well, sorry, homie, I want to drink and I'm gonna go drink tonight. Were y' all shocked by that?

Samantha Shelley [02:00:01] I was shocked by how many red flags he was immediately giving me in that conversation.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:00:06] That just felt to me like, very. I mean, we know now that Taylor, you know, she got sober partially because. Because she had to, because she was on probation. But it is interesting how he's saying, like, I. I need to be sober. I need my partner to be sober. She enjoys partying. We. We learned that it's too much. But regardless, they are clearly non compatible in how they plan to approach substances. And the fact that he's really wanting her to follow his style.

Samantha Shelley [02:00:34] Yeah, I think it's always a red flag when a man really wants a girl. Like, he wanted Taylor. He wanted the really hot bad girl. And. But then he's voicing that he wants to get married in the temple. He doesn't want a woman who drinks, who parties. And it's like, well, just by all available data, she's not what you're looking for, but she's really hot. So you wanna. The. The whole thing of just men trying to, like, change the bad girl into the good girl that they want is just always a red flag to me.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:01:02] And he was saying, like, I can't believe I'm dating Taylor. Frankie. Yeah, like, because she had so much social capital and status already, so. So that was just kind of icky.

Samantha Shelley [02:01:11] And there was another. When they were on the way to the restaurant, they were joking about how he hadn't made a reservation. And she made a joke about how she was going to get them a reservation by being like, I'm the Mormon swinger on Tick Tock. And then he said, oh, no, don't say that. Like, he. He made. He responded to her joke about being a Swinger by saying, oh, no, don't say that. And it's like, like, she is. She is the Mormon swinger from Tik Tok. That's who she is. Like, what do you mean? Don't say that again. It just feels like a whole. Just the, the him trying to change her, you know?

John Dehlin [02:01:43] Yeah. Well, I love that perspective. I did. I. I was blind to all that one, because I'm a guy.

Samantha Shelley [02:01:49] I knew from that conversation what he was going to turn into. Like, from that first conversation, the red flags were.

John Dehlin [02:01:54] Okay, well, that's fair. I was just. I read the book Empire Pain about opiate addictions nationwide. Utah, again, bizarrely, has a higher than per capita opiate addiction slash prescription drug abuse rate as I understand it, especially with Mormon women. But I was just feeling sad for Dakota. I know how serious opiate addiction can be. It can definitely be fatal. Here he is saying, I'm trying to stay alive in my mind. And she's saying, but I want to party.

Samantha Shelley [02:02:25] So why doesn't he date someone who's sober like him? He's in Utah. He couldn't be in a more personal perfect spot to find a woman who doesn't drink.

John Dehlin [02:02:32] She is pregnant with his baby. And maybe she wasn't.

Samantha Shelley [02:02:34] She wasn't at that point.

John Dehlin [02:02:35] She wasn't.

Samantha Shelley [02:02:36] No.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:02:37] She was having an ectopic pregnancy.

Samantha Shelley [02:02:39] She'd miscarried. So I think by that point, I

John Dehlin [02:02:41] mean, I got confused with it.

Samantha Shelley [02:02:42] I don't.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:02:42] There's many babies.

Samantha Shelley [02:02:44] It's obviously like a lovely thing to do if you start dating someone and they're in recovery and they say it would really be helpful for me to have a partner who's sober. Though that doesn't really make sense in, you know, when she was saying, I like to have a couple of drinks with my friends sometimes it's like, like that's not really going to affect him if she has a couple of glasses of wine at brunch with her friends, for example. So I'm a little bit whatever about that. I don't know why it needs to be this like, all encompassing sobriety. I understand just around him, like, yeah, that's a super valid, like, request to make. But I also don't think it, it's like on her to go sober for him. Like, it's on him to find a partner that's appropriate for his recovery goals.

John Dehlin [02:03:24] Mormons are bad at not to just

Samantha Shelley [02:03:26] shame her for not turning into the things that he wants her to be or needs her to be.

John Dehlin [02:03:30] Yeah, Mormons are really bad at Differentiation?

Samantha Shelley [02:03:32] Yes.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:03:33] Everyone's.

John Dehlin [02:03:33] Everyone's got to be doing what everyone's doing.

Samantha Shelley [02:03:36] So you're feeling bad for him, though?

Alyssa Witbeck [02:03:37] Yeah, no, I. I mean, I feel

Samantha Shelley [02:03:38] bad for everyone on the show, especially

Alyssa Witbeck [02:03:40] as far as being bad at differentiating. She's not just having, like, a drink with the girls every once in a while. She's saying, I want to get effed up. I want to, like. And she's like, it was a bit

Samantha Shelley [02:03:49] weird because she was like, I'm gonna get effed up tonight. Like, what? On the date right now? I was like, oh, that sounds like

Alyssa Witbeck [02:03:54] maybe a substance issue then, like, by myself. Because you're sober.

Samantha Shelley [02:03:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:03:57] And that brings us to the dark conclusion of episode one, where all of a sudden, the police are involved and they're going to the house. Oh, yeah, go ahead.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:04:06] I just want to say I think the way that this is shot is, like, really sets up the rest of the series. So right before we see the body cam footage, we hear Whitney and Connor praying in their house. We see them taking care of their babies. So this is, like, really setting up this Saints versus sinners dynamic because. Because Whitney is literally praying with her husband over their children. Perfect Mormon everything, right? That's what the Mormons are supposed to do. Have babies and pray a lot. And then we immediately flip over to Taylor's lowest point. Body cam footage, et cetera. So anyway, I think that's.

John Dehlin [02:04:37] Keep going. And then. Keep going.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:04:38] Yeah. So then we flip over to the body cam footage. We see the cops. And this was. This was hard, hard to watch. And I. I think that episode one narratively, was not very strong, and I think this was just an interesting choice to have in the. You know, shown to everybody. I felt like I shouldn't be seeing it. But regardless, we see. We hear 911 call. It's a neighbor saying that she's calling for domestic violence. Somebody's yelling. Someone's throwing things. They show up at Taylor and Dakota's house. Taylor's clearly extremely intoxicated. Is saying that she was scared, that she was thrown in the garage. Dakota saying, I was throwing you in the garage because you were attacking me. And I felt like I needed. Like my body wasn't safe.

Samantha Shelley [02:05:19] She said she peed her pants because she was so scared of him.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:05:22] Yeah, exactly. And then she ends up getting arrested because she throws several chairs. Her daughter was, according to a different podcast I was hearing where she. She said that her daughter was in the room, which I think just raises the stakes of. Of that quite a bit. So she's arrested overnight.

John Dehlin [02:05:40] And do we think that, like, that night where the police show up is the night of the day where they were at Tsunami?

Samantha Shelley [02:05:48] She was wearing a different outfit. I checked. I think it was a different.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:05:51] I think that's what they were trying to have us think. Yeah, that's probably not true, but that'd

John Dehlin [02:05:55] be weird to mess with the timeline that way. I think.

Samantha Shelley [02:05:58] I think it was probably around the same. Like, within the same few weeks, maybe.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:06:02] I think. I just think the storytelling of this episode was just so poorly done that it was kind of confusing. Timeline was. And what was happening when.

John Dehlin [02:06:10] Yeah, well, that was disturbing. And I, I, at that point, I wanted to stop the entire series. I almost quit because I just felt like this is a woman who's clearly mentally ill and this whole reality TV paradigm is just like egging her on, exploiting her mental illness. And it's just a show and it's a disaster and it's depressing and it's unethical. That's how I felt after episode one.

Samantha Shelley [02:06:39] And he's in recovery. So it's just two people with mental health struggle. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:06:43] And I'm like, it's not ethical to even cover this. But, you know, then episode two happened. But do you all want to talk about that? Just the ethics of reality TV shows like this just flat out being unethical or not. I mean, you said you love it, Alyssa.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:06:57] I love reality tv. And I also think it's unethical.

Samantha Shelley [02:07:00] Yeah, it's.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:07:01] It's something that I think, you know, know, you can't live with it, you can't live without it. Type. Type dilemma.

Samantha Shelley [02:07:07] Yeah, it's. It can be a useful cultural touch point for talking about things in a way that can be productive, though. I don't know what the net positive or negative is there, but it does feel like reality shows like this can add quite a lot or further the discourse. But, yeah, I was having that same thought after episode one of, like, these are all just. Just like immature people having their emotional immaturity exploited by these TV crews.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:07:37] But.

Samantha Shelley [02:07:37] And they did sign a contract, and I assume they're getting a lot of money out of it and have decided it's worth it for themselves. But it definitely does have that quality of like, which I suppose a lot of reality TV can have, but of where you feel like you're privy to something that they haven't realized about what the show is revealing about them. And that is, like, always an uncomfortable feeling and just feels like they will

Alyssa Witbeck [02:07:58] need to be in therapy And I do hope that. I know that some reality shows do this better than others, that the cast are, you know, having a really good support system. While this is being shown to the world right now, and especially where it's blowing up so much, I'm, like, thinking about them a lot. Call to action to your audience. Do not send these people hate comments.

Samantha Shelley [02:08:17] Oh, my God. Yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:08:18] Like there. I know there has been a lot, especially, I mean, like, the men and the women. There has been a lot of. Of, like, pretty. A lot of pretty heavy criticism of these people. And I think, like, Taylor is pretty open about how she's made a lot of bad choices and feels really terrible about it. And some of the other women, you know, have made choices that don't look very good on TV as well. But, yeah, it is. It is really messy. And I think about, you know, yeah, the, the ethics of signing a contract, but they're not exactly sure what is going to be shot or how it's going to be edited or how it's going to come across.

Reality TV, Young Motherhood, and Brand Deals

Alyssa Witbeck [02:08:50] And I agree with Sam that I think it's furthering conversation. I'm glad that they're, like, making money off of it. And they're clearly used to having tick tock their. Their money from social media. They're all, all of them are the breadwinners of their families, which is really interesting. So this is not completely new for them, but it is murky, especially the way that people talk about it and where people become really parasocial about it to the point of thinking that they know these people perfectly after watching.

Samantha Shelley [02:09:19] And I do feel like, because they're beautiful women, there's just like such an extra layer of, like, judgment and hatred and, like, zero grace that they're gonna receive. Even though there are other reality shows where. Or just other things generally where people are just as problematic or immature. But when it has the veneer that these women have, it's like it triggers people, men and women in especially sexist way that can just make people feel so enraged.

John Dehlin [02:09:52] Yeah. Yeah. Well, fortunately, I. I watched episode two and did it feel like Taylor brought a different vibe? Starting with episode two? Did y', all. Did y' all think that, that.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:10:07] And I think part of that is because it was so long in between the recording of the pilot.

John Dehlin [02:10:11] 11 months. Yeah. But she seemed a little more grounded, a little less unwell. I don't know.

Guest [02:10:19] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:10:19] But I loved what Britt said about the Pendulum Swing because it's so true. And so I was watching it, like, I mean, that's Good that, you know, it's good to be sober if you've got substance abuse issues. It's.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:10:29] And are required to by the law.

Samantha Shelley [02:10:31] Yeah. Like adhering to your probation and all that. That. But it's also like. Yeah. Problematic to me that she's doubling down in Mormonism rather than being able to kind of like, find the. The root of it all.

John Dehlin [02:10:45] Yeah. Because when she comes back, she. She gets in a disagreement with her mom. Her mom's mad that she's pregnant, and then she's.

Samantha Shelley [02:10:51] Yeah, she's pregnant. So I'm like, we're saying, oh, it's good that she's sober, but it's like, to me, it's worse to bring a life into an unstable home situation than it is to even be an alcoholic. Do you know what I mean? Like, we're talking about, like, a new human life here that she's brought into the world, like, casually. That, to me is like, the greatest sin. Not that I'm, you know, no judgment to all of it than, like, oh, good, she's not drinking. But, like, I would be.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:11:18] I feel like one thing that at least so far in the episodes that I would love to see discussed more is, like, the phenomenon of young moms. And I am glad that they're not showing a lot of the children like, that they're keeping their privacy.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:11:31] But I do think kind of being able to explore, like, what does it mean to be like moms, I think, have had a stigma for so long that you can't be sexually active. Even, like, you can't have any sort of sexuality as a mom. Right. You need to be very uptight and put together as a mom. You need to be stable and have everything perfect all the time in order to be a good mom. And so Whitney in episode two said that she. He doesn't want to feel only defined by motherhood. And I think that's a very real and very common feeling for a lot of women, especially Mormon moms that are young.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:12:05] And at the same time, I would love to see if we could have some of that conversation on this show or outside of the show about how it is that you can, like, offer a healthy childhood for the while. You're also kind of, like, trying to discover and differentiate yourself. And I feel like that's just such a complicated element of all this, is trying to find your own identity while also, still, like, being a healthy parent. And, you know, especially where at this point when. When Taylor's unstable and there has been a little bit of concern for her Children at the. You know, early on, it's hard.

Guest [02:12:35] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:12:36] You can see how desperate they all are to individuate, but they're still so confined by their patriarchal culture. And then you're seeing how emotionally immature they all are, and you're like, well, that's. Their children can't rise above that. I mean, that's like the best their children can hope for in terms of emotional attunement. Like, it doesn't look great in some ways.

John Dehlin [02:12:54] It's children raising children.

Samantha Shelley [02:12:56] That's exactly what the show feels like.

John Dehlin [02:12:58] Yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:12:58] And hopefully some of that's coming off like they're trying to add the drama. You know, I'm. I'm just hoping that. That, you know, they can. They're acting differently when they're in their houses and they're, you know, their own, their moms outside of the show. But the way that it comes across right now, just from what we see is, yeah, definitely feels like children raising children.

Guest [02:13:18] And.

John Dehlin [02:13:18] Yeah, I. I was bummed to see her get pregnant after the miscarriage and ectopic crisis.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:13:25] She had two pregnancies and then a third pregnancy. So she had an ectopic pregnancy and then a miscarriage, and then this.

Samantha Shelley [02:13:32] I thought she was saying she didn't know whether it was a miscarriage or an ectopic pregnancy.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:13:36] Well, that's the thing that. That's part of what happened in that 11 months was she had an ectopic pregnancy first.

Guest [02:13:40] Okay.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:13:40] And that's the one she's referring to. And then she had a miscarriage.

John Dehlin [02:13:42] Okay.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:13:43] And then this pregnancy.

Samantha Shelley [02:13:44] So it seems like.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:13:45] Like she just kind of wanted to possibly, you know, seems like she wanted to be pregnant for sure.

Samantha Shelley [02:13:49] And when she was asked about it, she wasn't like, yeah, I'm going to start using contraception.

John Dehlin [02:13:54] And it's worth saying that we've already kind of said it, that in Mormonism, a woman's role, a woman's divine purpose is baby making. It's not to have a career. It's not to get an education. It's not to perform service to humanity. Women are baby makers. Multiply and replenish the earth. Is that the defining trait for women in Mormonism, or am I making that up?

Samantha Shelley [02:14:18] Yeah, 100%. And I think when we as humans feel trapped, it's so common for us to invite or create chaos as almost a weird, like, psychic way of trying to, like, escape or, like, reach something new. And I feel like her clearly wanting or at least being okay with. With bringing a child into the world. Was. Is maybe part of that. And I. And that it's the whole thing of. I mean, how often do people have another child to try and, like, stabilize relationships.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:14:49] Yeah. Within Mormonism. That is what you're saying, John. It is the epitome of what it means to be a woman. And that is both implicit and explicit in Mormon doctrine and in Utah Mormon culture for centuries. That is the defining point of. Of being a woman. And it would make sense, too, that. But in order. If you're feeling. Not Taylor specifically, but like any woman is feeling lost and confused, achieving the role that everybody around you is saying, this is what stability looks like. It makes sense for that to feel appealing. Like, even. Especially if you have children, you thinking, you know, I kind of already know how to do this.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:15:22] That is a symbol for a lot of people of purity, of grace, of perfection, of, you know, female divinity is. Is pregnant moms, new. New mothers, babies, especially, like this. This young, young infancy. This, like, bringing life into the world. And so it isn't surprising, I think, that that could be a.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:15:44] A way that you would maybe feel like that's how you can get out of a rut. Whether or not it works or not is. Depends on the person.

Samantha Shelley [02:15:50] Yeah. And if she's feeling like her whole community just views her as so wretched because of what happened in that arrest, which to us is like, that's like a mental health issue. That's so sad. It's. It's so much more complicated than just, like you said, suck.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:16:03] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:16:03] But, like, if she's just feeling like a wretched woman. Yeah. Being with child is a great way

Alyssa Witbeck [02:16:08] to sort of suddenly be put on a pedestal.

Samantha Shelley [02:16:10] You're now an Eve care and compassion that you wouldn't otherwise be receiving because you wouldn't be deemed worthy of it.

John Dehlin [02:16:17] I mean, isn't it odd how angry Mormon grandparents are that their children would be pregnant out of wedlock, but how excited they are to have grandbabies?

Samantha Shelley [02:16:26] Yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:16:26] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:16:27] Right.

Samantha Shelley [02:16:27] Yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:16:27] It is so literally one day that the next next, that can change so drastic.

John Dehlin [02:16:31] It's like, sit next to murder. Thank you for my grandbabies.

Britt Hartley [02:16:34] Give me more.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:16:34] When's the next one? When's the next one coming? Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:16:37] That's the thing. All right, let's go to the scene where all the cast characters are bemoaning the fact that Taylor's run ins with the law and the swinging thing, you know, those things are affecting their brand deals. Y' all want to talk about that? Like, was that okay? Was that normal?

Samantha Shelley [02:16:56] They're Business women swinging affects your brand deals.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:16:58] Classic.

Samantha Shelley [02:17:01] Many times.

John Dehlin [02:17:02] But also her incarceration. Right. It's like I. I only got one brand deal in November and none in December.

Samantha Shelley [02:17:08] Everyone's done a b lessa brand deal.

John Dehlin [02:17:12] Anyway, that was. What do you think, Alyssa?

Alyssa Witbeck [02:17:14] I mean, it makes sense, I think for them to be concerned about that especially. And they were talking about how this is. The Saints group were talking about how Taylor's image and was really affecting Montauk and giving everybody a bad view of Montauk and especially where Taylor is the star. She has by far the most followers and she is presumably the least Mormon to a lot of viewers. I can see how that would make the more Mormon women uncomfortable, especially if you are the one that is providing for your family. So I, I saw that as just like you're doing a little bit of shit talking or feeling frustrated. I. I could understand why they were feeling a little bit Henry about it.

Sexuality, Vibrators, and Mormon Women

John Dehlin [02:17:54] And then that takes us to that whole segue into Whitney being offered a $20,000 deal to promote a vibrator. Are vibrators in Mormonism a thing amongst Mormon women? I can say I don't think that was something in my mother or my sister's Mormon experience. So what do you guys think?

Samantha Shelley [02:18:16] I was pretty shocked that these women of this young generation were still so averse to doing like. I just feel like you're married women, so is it. So you promoting a sex toy to

John Dehlin [02:18:29] me feels wholesome, but Mormon brain Mormon. Alyssa, does your Mormon brain incorporate young Mormon moms using vibrators?

Alyssa Witbeck [02:18:37] No, no, especially not. Especially not publicly. I did. Yeah. I mean, especially where Whitney's talking about how she's so progressive and kind of like what we're talking about before, how maybe they're not that progressive. And I'm. I'm really curious if that's one of the things that has changed a little bit socially over the past, like four years. But I do feel like vibrators have been. Whether they're used or not used. And I think probably much less, at least not talked about. Still a stigma, if not a complete. No, definitely not.

Samantha Shelley [02:19:08] That's promoted because later on we found out that it was super scandalous that one of them had sat on her husband's face. Yeah, that was like a whole storyline. This married woman.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:19:19] Exactly. The. This married woman. Person with children.

Guest 2 [02:19:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:19:23] Well, you know, it was just three years ago, four. Three years ago, that Natasha Helfer, the most well known Mormon sex therapist, was excommunicated from the Mormon Church. Not for apostasy not for adultery, not for swinging, not for drug use or whatever. She was literally teaching that masturbation was okay and teaching healthy sexuality principles. And she was literally excommunicated from the church. So we've gone from like just three years ago, the most prominent Mormon sex therapist getting excommunicated for teaching the masturbations okay. To self. Self identified, faithful Mormon women hawking vibrators in a brand deal as faithful Mormons. Sort of like, God, we won't be excommunicated. I mean, it was Whitney herself, sort of just like waving to the Mormon church leaders. I will be excommunicated. You know, you, you know, they won't come after me for this. That's a totally different Mormonism than even three years ago.

Samantha Shelley [02:20:28] I definitely get what you're saying, but I'm like, Natasha was teaching that, like, masturbation is healthy, which is, you know, the Mormon church runs on masturbation shame. So I could see why things like,

John Dehlin [02:20:39] what are vibrators used for, Samantha? Tell me.

Samantha Shelley [02:20:41] Used in a marital bedroom situation for the woman who has two kids and has never had an orgasm, then isn't

John Dehlin [02:20:48] that a rarer use of vibrators amongst married women?

Samantha Shelley [02:20:51] I honestly have no idea. I'm just saying, like, there's absolutely a place where it could just be a tool that a married couple is using.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:20:58] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:20:58] All right.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:20:59] And I, I think still, like, I think what really comes down to why Whitney is really confident that she would not be excommunicated is because she won't say anything negative about the church. Anything that where Natasha was was, you know, confronting church teachings. Whitney will not do that. And Whitney's saying this is actually totally okay within the church. This is fine. But even then, a lot of the women that I found was really interesting in this conversation was they still felt com. Just felt uncomfortable talking about it. They were unsure whether or not they would promote it. And then we jumped to the conversation with Whitney and oh, and Layla says that, yeah, she's 22, has never had orgasm, has had two children, only dated four men.

Samantha Shelley [02:21:40] Scared every time she approaches.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:21:42] That I thought was really, really interesting and extremely Mormon as well, I think,

John Dehlin [02:21:48] because when Mormon women aren't sexual beings, right?

Alyssa Witbeck [02:21:50] No, of course not. You leave that to the husband. You just want to have sex purely to have a baby or to make your husband feel better. But I do think when we jump to the conversation with Whitney's mom, and again, I did feel bad had for Whitney's mom and sister. I'm so sorry. Let's See, yeah, that like, they seem super uncomfortable with this conversation. And it's understandable because this is on, you know, television. That's the number one on Hulu right now. So I, I can kind of see that as comfort. But the mom made a comment that I thought really resonated with a lot of Mormon women.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:22:28] Let's see, what did she say? Oh, I guess we're, we've skipped ahead a little bit where that conversation goes. But she said something about like, vibrators. You don't want to promote a vibrator because, you know, once you start seeking pleasure, you never really know. She kind of getting out of hand, which I thought was really interesting. And that like really settled in on,

John Dehlin [02:22:46] well, that's the whole little factories. So Mormon apostle Boyd K. Packer once published a book, a pamphlet called like to the Young Men of the Church or whatever, and he gives this metaphor of like a factory. And he says the human body's like a factory. And what he means is it produces sperm and that if you masturbate too often, it gets the factory running too hot, producing too much sperm, and then that will lead to, I think, premarital sex and then being gay and raping people. Like, that's, you know, that's Boyd K. Packer's little factory metaphor. And so, so Whitney's mom would be coming by that, honestly, that logic. Right, Right.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:23:24] Yeah, Yeah. I didn't. It was not a surprising comment. It did not seem like, oh, this mom is so out of touch. It was like, yeah, that, that feels like pretty, pretty Mormon. And Whitney knew that too, because she was nervous. She was, she mentioned quite a few times that she was really nervous about what her family would think. Which ties into what Margi said a while ago, that more that adults tend to really care about what they're like, adult parents care about what their adult parents think a lot and are constantly seeking their approval. And that's what Whitney is doing here.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:23:54] And as much as she's saying that she is wanting to break the mold and to be more sex positive in a monogamous marriage, there is still clearly some discomfort because her friends are still a little bit uncomfortable with it. She's worried about what her mom is thinking. So even in a sense of trying to be empowering, it's still new and murky and she's not even sure she's going to take it. You know, at the start of the

John Dehlin [02:24:19] conversation, do we know if she did the brand deal? Do we even know?

Alyssa Witbeck [02:24:23] I don't know. I thought she said she Was going to. But.

John Dehlin [02:24:26] Or was the TV show her brand deal.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:24:28] That's fair, actually. Did they show? I don't know if they saw. I didn't notice the.

John Dehlin [02:24:32] I mean, they blurred out. They blurred out the brand? Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:24:36] I don't know.

John Dehlin [02:24:37] Are you. Have you.

Samantha Shelley [02:24:38] They didn't give me 20 grand.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:24:40] Hello?

John Dehlin [02:24:41] You gotta up your game, Samantha.

Samantha Shelley [02:24:42] I know.

John Dehlin [02:24:44] All right. Well, yeah. Sexual dysfunction and women not viewing themselves as sexual beings, let alone enjoying satisfaction in sex, is absolutely a Mormon thing.

Samantha Shelley [02:24:56] Even though I feel like a vibrator could potentially serve the patriarchy in this context. Because if your wife is never having an orgasm, it's like, you gotta do something to keep her around.

Britt Hartley [02:25:05] Exactly.

Guest [02:25:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:25:06] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:25:07] Or she's gonna go to Vegas.

John Dehlin [02:25:08] Yeah, exactly.

Samantha Shelley [02:25:09] Meet a Chippendale.

John Dehlin [02:25:10] Yeah, that could happen. Stay tuned for a future episode. All right, so then it goes to. We've already talked about, you know, the parents and Taylor getting married and the parents being mad at Taylor and wanting her to marry Dakota and push her into that marriage. What did y' all think about the way that the dad, Jeremy, talked to Dakota?

Samantha Shelley [02:25:37] As soon as I saw the dad, I was like, like, oh, this explains a lot. Trying not to do reality TV judgment, but I allowed myself just a little treat with the dad where I was like, oh, I can imagine the type of Mormon bro you were back in the day.

John Dehlin [02:25:52] So you're saying Jeremy's lame. Mormon lameness maybe led to Taylor's rebellion?

Samantha Shelley [02:25:57] I wouldn't say lameness, but he just had like that, like, Mormon douchey vibe. I'm just being real. Yeah, this isn't the most conscious take. I'm just saying that's how he read.

John Dehlin [02:26:07] What were you saying?

Alyssa Witbeck [02:26:08] Oh, I just said he seemed like he was like peacocking for at least, like presenting as this like macho dad character that was like, you knock up my daughter. Meanwhile, he's talking about a nearly 30 old woman who already has two children.

Samantha Shelley [02:26:21] And when they interacted, the dad and Dakota, I was like, these guys are cut from the same. They're the same. Like, they're vibing, honestly.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:26:27] And this is, you know, there's plenty of very valid and it is plenty of good criticism about the relationship. You know, maybe there's problems there, whatever. But just like the way that he came in and with the parents kind of were just like so appalled at the thought of him moving in when she's literally about to have a baby. And the way he kind of gives that like protective dad speech as if it was like a 15 year old girl on her way to prom.

Samantha Shelley [02:26:51] It just these two guys just talking about this woman as an object where the guy's like, I don't want a revolving door of men hanging around my daughter. And it's just like two men talking about which one of them owns her more.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:27:02] Exactly.

Samantha Shelley [02:27:03] I felt like.

John Dehlin [02:27:03] And you know, the dad was thinking, I don't want my daughter to have multiple sexual partners.

Samantha Shelley [02:27:08] Yeah, of course.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:27:09] Which. Which they said at one point, the dad or the mom. Like, well, you've already had, you know, two baby daddies now. So like you need to marry him now because can't imagine the shame of three.

John Dehlin [02:27:21] Three baby.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:27:22] Exactly. Rather than like, let's see if like they didn't. That didn't seem to be much conversation that we saw saw about whether the relationship itself was healthy. It just seemed more just on that trying to stop this woman.

Britt Hartley [02:27:35] So true.

John Dehlin [02:27:36] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:27:36] Wasn't like what's going to be best for my daughter as she's navigating, having a newborn.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:27:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:27:42] But I mean if, if the average Mormon parent didn't necessarily marry for sort of true love, best friend sort of thing. If they married because they were told, go on your mission, get home, marry as soon as possible possible, and then have as much kids as possible. And because you were engaged for a month or two and you knew each other four to six months before you got married, which is most of the people I've interviewed on Mormon stories, by the way. Like a ten month engagement is. Which was mine and Margi's is super long. Most. It's four to six. Four to six months max.

John Dehlin [02:28:12] These people don't know each other. But parents that's gonna have. That's gonna be what they encourage their kids to do. Their parents aren't going to say to the kids, kids become best friends, live with each other for years, get to know each other really well, then. Then consider marriage. And then if the marriage goes really well, then consider kids maybe in your early 30s. No, it's get married as soon as possible and then have as many. Make me as many grandbabies as you can. Right.

John Dehlin [02:28:40] Is that the deal? All right. The episode two ends with, with Taylor's baby shower and Macy is kind of, I'll just swear, talking Dakota. Right.

Samantha Shelley [02:28:55] And she was right to do it, I think.

John Dehlin [02:28:57] Why do you say that? You don't like, you're not a Dakota fan?

Samantha Shelley [02:29:00] No, I. He had red flags from the first conversation I saw him.

John Dehlin [02:29:03] You don't think he's sympathetic?

Samantha Shelley [02:29:05] Well, everyone's like, what do you mean sympathetic?

John Dehlin [02:29:07] I Don't know, like, nice guy.

Samantha Shelley [02:29:09] No, no, I think he's a. A just a patriarchal bro who's, like, probably abusive and toxic and apparently when he gets into a fight with her, like, he immediately goes to, like, whore, slut. It's just like that. Again, that classic thing of going for the hot bad girl, trying to change her into the good girl that you want, because you just see her as an object and it's not at any point, like, really seeing her humanity.

John Dehlin [02:29:30] But you have to believe Macy to believe that story about Dakota.

Samantha Shelley [02:29:33] Well, no, you see evidence of it in him. I saw it from that first conversation at Tsunami, your favorite sushi restaurant.

Guest 2 [02:29:38] Restaurant.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:29:38] Oh, yeah, Tsunami, please.

John Dehlin [02:29:42] Are you a Dakota fan, Alyssa?

Alyssa Witbeck [02:29:44] I'm not a Dakota fan.

Britt Hartley [02:29:45] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:29:45] Why not?

Alyssa Witbeck [02:29:46] I. I agree with Sam. Red flags right now, just in the context of these first two episodes, I think he, he's giving hints of, of controlling from the things that we see. But I did really, like. I mean, okay, I think there can be a little bit of controversy about whether about Macy talking bad about Dakota, about your heart, your best friend's partner. But I, I liked that she was open enough and I think she wasn't from what, again, within the context of these first two episodes, she wasn't telling Taylor, I love your boyfriend. I think he's awesome, and then shit talking him to everybody else.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:30:19] I feel like she was representative. Exactly the type of friend that is like, hey, I'm seeing red flags here. I want you to be okay. This is what I see. I support you, I trust you as an adult person, but I just want to, like, offer some insight that maybe you're not noticing.

Samantha Shelley [02:30:34] Yeah, I felt like she was healthy and mature and differentiated about it. She wasn't, like. I don't know, she wasn't, like, consistent. She was just kind of like, I'm noticing this and it's very concerning. Yeah, I, I feel like Macy's emerged as, like, just seems like one of the best girls out of the group. She seems to have her head screwed

Alyssa Witbeck [02:30:52] on just to, like, really cement that. I like reality tv. It reminds me of the relationship between Janae and Serena and Leah on Love Island USA Season six.

Guest 2 [02:31:01] Six.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:31:01] Go watch it. It's fantastic.

Samantha Shelley [02:31:04] Huge fans. Yes.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:31:06] Love island usa, if you're watching this, please sponsor us.

Samantha Shelley [02:31:08] Rob, if you're watching.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:31:09] Yeah, Rob. Well, we were both going to be you for Halloween this year, but. But basically, like, they're able to have this friendship where they could say, hey, I think you're out of line here. I love You. But this was too far. And I think that's something that. In Mormonism, especially tying it back, I promise that is so hard for Mormon women, myself included, who. Who were taught to be sweet and people pleasers all the time, to be able to have these real conversations and to be able to have any sort of confrontation knowing that someone could have a negative reaction. I was impressed that Macy was able to tell.

Friendship, Loyalty, and Coming Out on the Show

Alyssa Witbeck [02:31:39] Basically, I was impressed that Macy was able to tell her friend. Hey, I think that you made a bad choice here. I don't think your friend was. Or I don't think your boyfriend is necessarily a good fit in a way that was not like trying to start a fight or trying to be gossipy. It was like. It felt very authentic. And I. I think that we need more of that in the church.

Samantha Shelley [02:31:58] The fact that when Dakota and Taylor started dating, he was sleeping with multiple women, which. No shame. But then, like, when they get in a fight, he. He's calling her a slot and a. And, like, he seems to, like, look down on her because of the swinging thing. Again, this is why, like, the trying to turn the bad girl good thing just feels so problematic because it's like he almost, like, inherently feels superior to her going into it.

Guest 2 [02:32:22] It.

Samantha Shelley [02:32:22] And feels that he is, like, you know, deserves to be kind of, like, in the guru position to, like, help redeem her. Like, that's just, like, such a.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:32:30] And then he can still be a saint with as many sexual partners as he wants. But the fact that she's had a couple, she's like.

Samantha Shelley [02:32:35] Even though she, as far as we can tell, has been, like, fully just with him since she's been with him, and. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:32:41] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:32:43] You find him to be.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:32:44] Do you like him?

Samantha Shelley [02:32:45] I mean, you've been kind of an apologist today.

John Dehlin [02:32:47] I don't want to. I don't want to come hard at Dakota.

Samantha Shelley [02:32:50] You're coming out as team Dakota.

John Dehlin [02:32:51] No, honestly, when I first saw him, I'm like, how did he land her? That was honestly my immediate reaction. But, yeah, the comments are blowing up with people saying no to Dakota. And. Yeah, I mean, I. I just. I just think they don't belong together. Neither of them are well enough to be in a serious, stable relationship, let alone to be having children. That's where I come down on Dakota.

Samantha Shelley [02:33:15] Do you think their dysfunctions are clearly clicking?

John Dehlin [02:33:17] Oh, yes.

Samantha Shelley [02:33:18] And it's probably like, his toxicity is why he got her.

John Dehlin [02:33:21] No, it's a classic, unhealthy, codependent relationship.

Samantha Shelley [02:33:23] Right.

John Dehlin [02:33:24] Yeah. All right. Well, it ends by the, you know, the baby shower. Are we mad at Whitney for not showing up to the baby shower, or are Whitney and Taylor just not friends? And it made no sense for Whitney to show up to the baby shower.

Samantha Shelley [02:33:37] The first time I watched it, I was like, I don't really understand the baby. Big deal. Because it sounded like. But as I rewatched it, I was like, oh, they were completely fine. Ish. With, you know, with how these girls are. But then that thing happened where she met. Brought up her pregnancy. Right after she brought up Connor's cheating thing, it seemed like she. The second. Sorry, I'm doing a bad job talking. But on my second watch through, I was like, oh, yeah. It seems like Whitney just, like, got really offended by Taylor. Not, like, letting her be in the spotlight and then was just kind of done.

Samantha Shelley [02:34:10] I do feel like she probably owed her an explanation. I think it's fine to walk away from a friendship if it doesn't feel healthy or you. If you don't feel like you are, you know, you two are good friends. But it does seem a bit strange that she didn't.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:34:22] Yeah, basically, I had mixed feelings on that as well, because I think, you know, you don't necessarily owe your friendship to anybody. And I, you know, the speech she gave for why of I don't want to be around people. I like protecting my piece, you know. I agree to those sentiments.

Samantha Shelley [02:34:37] Yeah. I think that's why the first watch through, I was like kind of team Whitney.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:34:40] And.

Samantha Shelley [02:34:40] And then the second watch there, I was like, actually, though, yeah, it felt

Alyssa Witbeck [02:34:44] misplaced based on the dynamics that we saw. And I don't know if. If there was more. I mean, of course there was more to their dynamic that we didn't see, but based on this, it seemed like they were fine. It didn't seem like there was enough to cause that. And it. Mostly it was like Whitney knew she was making a statement by not going,

John Dehlin [02:35:01] which made me wonder whether that was just theatrics. For reality tv.

Samantha Shelley [02:35:04] You gotta have a good storyline, you

John Dehlin [02:35:05] know, because this point, they knew they were in a show together.

Samantha Shelley [02:35:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:35:11] So, I mean, the. The. Would the network or whoever, the production company want one of the major cast members to not show up at one of the major filmings unless it was all premeditated? This will create drama.

Samantha Shelley [02:35:23] I always think that because I'm like, if this wasn't happening in this episode, what would be happening?

John Dehlin [02:35:27] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:35:27] If that it would just be a boring baby shower or I guess maybe they'd find drama.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:35:31] But it makes sense to me what I could possibly see happening. Think is they have, like, a tiny bit of tension. And producers, you know, I've heard that reality TV is, like, staged, not scripted. They're kind of just, like, constantly being, like, pressed by producers until they, like, say something. So say the producers are asking Whitney, like, hey, like, what do you think about Taylor saying. Talking about her pregnancy right after. Did you think that was weird? Until she. And she's like, yeah, but, you know, that was kind of weird. And, like, are you mad? Like, do you guys even think you're friends? Like, would you. I. Obviously, this is total speculation. I have no idea if that happens. Happened, but that's kind of how it came across to me that maybe there was some producer nudging that, like, what? Well, you don't have to go. Like, if you're not friends.

Samantha Shelley [02:36:11] It would.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:36:11] It would be surprising to me if it was totally her idea to not go, especially when it was obviously being filmed. That does seem like an insane thing to not show up to something somewhere where it was being shot, Especially if you want attention. Like, hello. Even if you're not that friend. That good of friends.

Samantha Shelley [02:36:27] I know.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:36:28] That's your job, right? Get the storyline exactly. Or you get to be on tv. So.

John Dehlin [02:36:32] And yeah. And then the most bizarre part of all was Leanne, the mom, calling Whitney for the confrontation. This is where. Where my theory comes from. They're filming, you know, Taylor's mom, Leanne, confronting Whitney in a phone call at the. At the baby shower. Like, come on.

Samantha Shelley [02:36:53] Felt like an insight into the mom if it was real. Because I feel like I've known mums like, that. They get, like, weirdly involved in their, like, teenage daughter's drama, and it's like,

John Dehlin [02:37:02] that just felt like a bit much.

Samantha Shelley [02:37:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:37:04] To me, y' all agreed with that.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:37:06] It seems like it was coming from a place of, like, trying to be protective and trying to, like, oh, I don't want you to be sad. I want you to feel supportive, but it just was way too far.

John Dehlin [02:37:15] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:37:16] Yeah. It felt like she was just getting involved for her own reasons.

John Dehlin [02:37:20] All right, so that kind of covers episodes one and two. We're going to cover other episodes in future. Future Mormon stories episodes. So please stay tuned. I have a few final questions. Is that okay if I. If we. If I ask you those really quick? Okay. The first thing I did is I made a list of just a small sampling of just kind of how, you know, why I think this is really a worthwhile Mormon story. And what I'll do is I'll show a Couple clips of comments from like believing sort of obnoxious, believing Mormons. I don't mean to call them obnoxious, but I just did. Angeli De Haven writes, I'm a member of this church and I don't recognize

Samantha Shelley [02:37:58] you for the voice.

John Dehlin [02:37:59] Okay? I'm, I'm a member of this church and I don't recognize these women. We don't act like this at all. I wish there was a real reality show that showed LDS women and what their lives are really like. We're not that different than regular everyday women taking and I. And then it's cut off, off. And then another comment was Tristina Hatch Brown who writes, I watched these women in their interviews and a lot of them, if not all of them, said they were not active, but they had been in the past. And it just goes on to basically say that these aren't really Latter Day Saint women.

John Dehlin [02:38:34] Which then pulls the, the question is this representing Mormonism at all? And my response to that is, let me just give you a list of some of the topics, topics just in the first couple episodes that I've detected. Law of chastity, purity culture, sexual shame, sexism next to murder, inorgasmia or sexual dysfunction, lack of sexual education amongst Mormon youth, masturbation, the forbidden nature of masturbation, pornography, infidelity, patriarchy, early marriage and motherhood, conditional and or unconditional family love, love controlling and judgmental parents, toxic codependent dynamics between parents and children and adult children and couples, word of wisdom stuff. Drinking, drug abuse, which is on brand in Utah, Shame based gossip, sort of like hen pecking gossip between Mormon women.

John Dehlin [02:39:34] Perfectionism, plastic surgery, you know, perfection in appearance. There's some racism that comes up, boundary policing, catty gossip, queen bee dynamics and massive hypocrisy. Like, and that's just what I came up with. That sounds very Mormon to me. I don't know. Am I wrong?

Samantha Shelley [02:39:54] You're not wrong, John. And like they were raised Mormon. All of them were raised in Mormon culture. They were forged in the fires of Mormonism. And I think something that believing Mormons haven't got good at understanding on a mass scale yet is like people that are living kind of in reaction to the culture are still the product of the culture. Like with any ideology there's, there are going to be unintended byproducts of that ideology. And maybe to the average true believing member who looks down on these women like that, they're not able to see it as that. But like that's what it is. These Women are a product of.

Samantha Shelley [02:40:34] Not even a byproduct of Mormonism. They. They are a product of Mormonism. It's just that it's this weird idea that Mormons continue to have that unless you're. There's. It's the no true Scotsman fallacy. Right. And it's like anything other than, like, perfect adherence to all the rules and the ways that we do it just means you're not. You're just not. Right? You're not. You don't get to count yourself as one of us. Even if it's like a weird. Even if it's like a smaller thing or like, how often do we hear Mormons just completely dismissed miss Other Mormon stories? Because, like, well, my bishop didn't teach that.

Samantha Shelley [02:41:06] Even though it's like, yeah, but we know that, like, tons of bishops do. And they're like, well, it's not doctrine. It's like, well, it's taught everywhere.

John Dehlin [02:41:11] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:41:12] You know.

John Dehlin [02:41:13] Alyssa, what do you think?

Alyssa Witbeck [02:41:14] Yeah, I mean, I just feel like Mormonism informs every part of the story more so than I thought, actually.

John Dehlin [02:41:19] Yeah, me too. Me too.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:41:20] I think especially in the second episode, we. And as we keep going, we're able to see, like, yeah, so much of this is just showing all the different layers of Mormonism and even just the way that they're ranking each other based on their Mormon levels, who more and

John Dehlin [02:41:34] less Mormon, who's wearing their garments.

Samantha Shelley [02:41:35] Quantifying spirituality.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:41:37] So Mormon and talking about like, oh, nursing garments here. Oh, you're not wearing your garments here. And. And, you know, we'll get into this more with future episodes, but I just really feel like that in and of itself, and even just the fact that to discuss by people in the comments, the differentiation between a Mormon, a pragma. Oh, and even what Macy and Whitney were saying in a clip we showed a few minutes ago, like, if you're in doubt or not in doubt or you're. You have a current temple recommend or not current temple recommend. These types of distinctions are so Mormon. And I think anybody that's watching that's not Mormon. It doesn't really matter, you know, whether you have a temple recommend or not. It's. It's all just Mormon culture. It's all just. It's all just based on. Informed by the Mormon Church.

Samantha Shelley [02:42:22] Bad Mormons are still Mormons.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:42:23] Exactly.

Samantha Shelley [02:42:24] There's going to be a bad version of people in every religion.

John Dehlin [02:42:27] Going back to our. My original point at the beginning, beginning 4/5 of all the people ever baptized in the Mormon Church have left the Mormon Church. And then I'd say only a third of adult active attending Mormons are like temple recommending Mormons. Which means that two thirds of adult Mormons are not necessarily living the standards. Whether it's, you know, whether it's the word of wisdom and eschewing alcohol and tobacco and drugs. Drugs. I know, I know, I know. Faithful Mormon YouTube apologist Influencers who smoke weed and are kind of proud of it. Like weed has become very prevalent. It's legalized now medically in Utah.

John Dehlin [02:43:12] You know, it's just, it's rare. This, this idea that like the normal Mormon doesn't drink alcohol, doesn't have premarital sex, is faithful to their spouse, house wears their garments and is super devout. That's an exception within even active Mormonism, let alone in the broad big bad world of what the church claims to be 17 million Mormons. It's people that don't live the standards that are the rule. Am I wrong?

Alyssa Witbeck [02:43:42] No. And also, I mean the whole name of the show is the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. And I think that's what it's saying is like even in your most devout congregations, there are people who are behaving this way who to, you know, show up to church on Sunday and everything seems perfect. But they have, they do different things. They, they are not following all the rules perfectly. Maybe not on tick tock for 2 million people and maybe they don't have as expensive repair extensions, but they still have, you know, these like things that kind of go. That juxtapose with what the church is, is expecting. Yeah, yeah. What was it? Never mind.

John Dehlin [02:44:15] I was good.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:44:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:44:16] And like we had Stephanie Brigherhoff on. She was a Mormon mom. Mom who tried mushrooms is just a way to try and self medicate her depression. We've already talked about the swinging that happens in orthodox faithful Mormonism.

Samantha Shelley [02:44:27] Did you remember Stephanie didn't do swinging.

John Dehlin [02:44:29] No, no, no. I was, I was. That was another example.

Samantha Shelley [02:44:33] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:44:33] Yeah, yeah.

Is the Show Good or Bad for Mormonism

Alyssa Witbeck [02:44:33] I think one thing that is just also so hard for Mormons at this point in this like transition is for recently, you know, Nelson is kind of trying to make Mormons theme more mainstream and more Christian. And we are just so confused because as Mormons get more publicity, there's just so many different shows and books and everything about Mormons right now. It's like on the one hand we're celebrating like, yay, look, we're looking more mainstream, we're looking more normal. We're not being compared like the Amish as much. You know, maybe we can just kind of be seen as like, oh yeah, we're just like your regular cool Christians in some ways that this show should be good for that.

John Dehlin [02:45:08] I was going to ask that is this show bad for the church or good for the church? Because it makes Mormons look less weird.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:45:14] It makes Mormons look less weird. And you and what I. I would expect maybe for like an outsider. I have no idea what an outsider is actually thinking, but maybe they'd go, oh well these women, they're like a little wild. So they're maybe a little bit extreme. But this idea of like wearing cute clothes and being cool, that's the message. I think that maybe people will associate more with Mormons or at least that's the hope that people associate more with Mormons. And I just, I don't think it's going to make the Mormon culture less or make it any less conservative but in some ways, like it makes them look better. It makes them look less culty, I think.

John Dehlin [02:45:47] So Sam, I want to bring you in but let me play Macy's clip because I think it's really interesting. Macy did a little TikTok about this exact question. So let's play that clip really quick.

▶ Video Clip 2

Video Clip 2 [02:45:57] Some church can be disappointed with me, but I'm also disappointed with them. Are they Mormon or are they not Mormon? I am indeed Mormon. I am also active in the church.

Video Clip 2 [02:46:06] I grew up Mormon.

Video Clip 2 [02:46:07] I've been more in my, my entire life besides maybe a two year period where I was inactive in college. I attend church every single Sunday. I also have a calling in the church. I also have a temple recommend. So to me it's funny to see everyone online saying that I'm not Mormons, that none of us are Mormons and we're using it for show because that would be false. Am I a perfect Mormon? No. But if you're watching this and you're Mormon, are you too? Are you perfect? Chances are you're probably not. Honestly, I think that's what's caught me off guard the most. Ghost with posting the show announcement.

Video Clip 2 [02:46:35] The amount of Mormons who are so mad, that's what blows me away. Like you haven't even seen the show and y' all are all freaking out. I get people worried about misrepresentation. But you know that Mormons are also represented as polygamous. People have all different misconstrued ideas what Mormons are. So I really think this show is probably the least of the worry. If anything, I think the show will be a breath of fresh air because a lot of Mormons have struggles with judgment in the church and the culture in general. So I'm hoping this show will shed light on how you can still be Mormon, but you also don't have to be perfect.

Video Clip 2 [02:47:04] The people in the church can be disappointed with me, but I'm also disappointed with them. If anything, I thought my own community of Mormons would be supportive and not judgmental because we're supposed to be Christline. So far, it's been the opposite. One thing I definitely heavily dislike about being Mormon is the judgment that the culture can bring. We don't have to ask for their garments are. And honestly, I'm used to being judged because it's happened pretty much my whole life. I grew up playing tennis most Sundays and competing. I was able to wear bikinis and tuktuk dresses. And because of that, a lot of the Mormon girls my age would make up rumors and lies about me because I didn't look like the stereotypical Mormon. So I just want to come on

Video Clip 2 [02:47:40] here and clear the air.

Video Clip 2 [02:47:41] So now you all know that I am Mormon. I'm a practicing Mormon. I have a calling, a temple recommend, and I also have multiple piercings, tattoos. But that. That's the part of the church that I love. When we can all be different. We can all come together despite differences and love each other and accept each other because none of us are perfect. Even if you follow the guidelines to a T, you are not perfect. And now that the air has been clear, make sure to watch Secret Lives of Mormon Lives On Hill Live September 6th.

John Dehlin [02:48:08] All right, Sammy, what were you gonna say?

Samantha Shelley [02:48:09] I need to go off.

John Dehlin [02:48:11] Why?

Samantha Shelley [02:48:12] No, I'm good. I just think something that isn't being talked about enough is how much. Much the show and the discourse around the show is highlighting how much Mormons conflate spirituality, like, having a true spiritual experience, a connection with the divine, with following these arbitrary rules. Like, in all of the discussions about, like, how Mormon are they, how it's all just about, like, what rules are they following or not following? And it's like, how weak is your form of spirituality if it can be degraded by, like, someone wearing a tube top like that? All the discussions are just so centered around, like, what are they wearing?

Samantha Shelley [02:48:51] Do they drink alcohol or not do. Are they in an open. Like, none of those things, like, speak to a true spiritual experience in any way. Those are just, like, the specific flavors of arbitrary rules that Mormonism has identity kind of like. Yeah. And those things are supposed to, like, in theory, like, back up your. Our, like, ability to connect with the divine. But all of this is just like, you can so see from the show how much people in Mormonism, whether they're following the rules or not, it's just all about the rules. Like, it's not a religion where you're, you know, they'll talk about how, like, we love the foundation of our church, like, love and service and family.

Samantha Shelley [02:49:29] And it's like, that's everyone's values. Most people, if you ask them, say they care about love and service and family. Like, no one's saying that they're against that, you know, Know. So I just think it's like, the thing the church should be embarrassed about is not the fact that there's these people claiming to be Mormon that don't follow the rules. Well, that they're highlighting how, like, just bereft of any, like, true, I don't know, divinity this religion is and not, you know, not for everyone. People have obviously, like, strong connections to the divine within it. But yeah, I just think, like, the conversation about, about spirituality being so connected to the rules is just like, starting to get really cringe.

Samantha Shelley [02:50:05] And I'm like, I don't think the Mormons realize how cringe they're being or however, how much they're revealing in being so obsessed with that as, like, you don't truly. It's like, isn't this supposed to be about, like, coming closer to God and Jesus Christ and you're like, just like,

John Dehlin [02:50:20] completely each other's hemlines?

Samantha Shelley [02:50:22] Yeah, it's absurd. It's absurd, Alyssa.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:50:25] Exactly. I, I feel like, like, to your question earlier, John, is this show going to be better or worse for Mormons? I feel like the show could be better, but the church's official statement and Mormons general reaction, I think is really harmful for Mormons as a whole collectively, because they're showing what they've been saying for years that they're not doing. Mormons love to say, oh, everybody says we're judgmental, but we're not. You'll see, like Mormon tiktokers all the time be like, we're inclusive of everybody. We, we bring everybody in. We don't care, you know, how perfect you are. The church is for sinners. The church is for the imperfect.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:50:59] And then as soon as these women began to call themselves Mormon, they are just bashing so intensely and they are showing just how close and rigid the church is. And for, if anything, like, it is kind of validating for me as the next morning, like, see, I told you, like, I, I was feeling like, excluded for a Reason. And I was feeling like it was so judgmental and difficult to be a part of this community for a reason. And people love to say, like, you don't actually have to leave the church. You don't, you don't have to be following all the rules. Like, you know, you can, you know, just kind of do it part way.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:51:29] You, you know, you can kind of cherry pick. Progressive Mormonism is a thing. And just based on like the overwhelming reaction that Mormons are having right now to the show, before the show even aired, I think really shows that the general membership of the church is absolutely not okay with people changing any of the. Of those outside rules. And this is even with Taylor saying on the show that we're seeing her talk about how she feels like the church is for sinners. The church is to draw closer to God. She's the only person that mentions the atonement in the show, which is supposed to be the most important part of Mormonism.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:52:04] But it's, but it's her. The one who is seen as like this, the weakest quote unquote in her testimony is the only one who's actually talking about, you know, her relationship to God and to Jesus and, and yeah, and kind of like what you were saying, Sam too. Nobody in the comments has really cared about if it's Christian at all. Like, that seems like that is completely outside of any sort of the conversation about this show is it's mostly about garments and word of wisdom. And even in the defense. It's a defense of garments and word of wisdom. It's like.

John Dehlin [02:52:35] And sexual acting out.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:52:36] Exactly.

Samantha Shelley [02:52:37] It's like, guys, I think you've made a stone image.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:52:40] Right. Like, I feel like. And, and Russell has been. I mean, President Nelson has been saying so much recently. Yes, it is 100 birthdays. He's been saying so much recently about how the whole church is about following Jesus Christ and it's all about Jesus Christ. And that has been almost completely absent from the discourse.

Samantha Shelley [02:52:58] Yeah, I have no beef with that video you showed of Macy. But even just her talking about how like nobody's perfect, I'm not perfect. And then it's like the things we're considering like imperfection are like wearing a tube top top or you know what I mean? I'm like, that's not. Again, what a. What an empty, weak form of spirituality where like your pursuit of excellence or in Mormonism, it's a pursuit of perfection is tied to stuff like that. Not like, how much can you give grace and compassion to the Taylor Frankie Pools of the world who are clearly having mental health issues and, you know, acting out on social media and getting arrested. Like, how much I feel like a true, true Christian.

John Dehlin [02:53:40] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:53:41] Would be able to, like, bring grace to all those people. Even to the Whitney's guys.

John Dehlin [02:53:47] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:53:47] Maybe even to Dakota.

John Dehlin [02:53:50] Now you've gone too far.

Samantha Shelley [02:53:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:53:52] All right.

Samantha Shelley [02:53:53] Myself out.

Data and Research on Latter-day Saint Women

John Dehlin [02:53:55] Well, I, I wanted to also just really quickly get in the desert News did a couple articles on this topic written by Hannah Syriac, who is a former apologist who used to try and do, like, Book of Abraham truth claims apologetics while at byu.

John Dehlin [02:54:17] And. And then she somehow became a writer for the Deseret News. And the, the articles that she wrote. One is entitled Don't Believe Hulu. These. These are the really real, real Lives of Latter Day Saint Wives. That's one of the articles. And the second is the Real Lives of Latter Day Saint Wives. I don't know if that's the same article, different headlines or what, but she goes on to write a couple things that I'm curious to get your. Your takes on. Alyssa and Samantha. She basically interviews a professor that says, honestly, I think this show is hurtful.

John Dehlin [02:54:52] This professor at BYU says, quote, this show creates a sense of doubt among younger women who see beautiful women gain fame through their choices that contradict moral values that are important to people of faith. Then it goes on to say, we're glorifying something we know is bad for women. Says Bogman, when women leave faith, it leads to greater depression, it leads to greater loneliness, it leads to all of these horrible outcomes. She goes on to say, the gist of what is shown on screen is that these women don't need organized religion and they are feeling restrained by faith and that the roles and obligations suggested by their faiths harming them and stopping them from fulfilling their dreams.

John Dehlin [02:55:43] All right, let me pause there. So they're basically claiming that people who leave Mormonism are sad, lonely, pathetic, miserable people. Alyssa, has that been your experience? I know a little bit about how your mental health was when you were at byu.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:55:59] Yeah, my mental health is way better. I'm definitely. I was with a time that my mental health was the worst when I was, when I was the most about. And now I'm the happiest I've been. Not the happiness is even necessarily the end point for all sorts of, like, fulfillment.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:56:16] But that also is just such a, a, it's just such a dismissive comment in so many ways. Dismissive of people who leave and why. And also, of course, people who leave are going to be grieving the loss of their identity. So I think that process would absolutely make sense. Not to mention many of these women, if not all of them at this point are still within the church. And so by claiming that like they've all left the church, it's weird because they're explicitly saying repeatedly that they are in the church, church, regardless of, you know, if, if you know to what extent they're following the rules or not.

Samantha Shelley [02:56:51] So like, none of them is ex Mormon, right?

Alyssa Witbeck [02:56:53] I don't. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:56:56] What's also weird is that, is that people, we all know that, that 20 teenagers and 20 somethings and 30 somethings are leaving the Mormon church in droves. There's a statistic that 60%, 60% of returned missionaries are leaving the church within six months of returning home from their mission. Like the church is hemorrhaging. Guys, what's that you said?

Samantha Shelley [02:57:23] Well done.

John Dehlin [02:57:23] Well, I mean, it depends on your perspective, but the church is hemorrhaging its, its youth and it's. Young men and women and women are leaving Mormonism in, in mass partly because they feel disempowered because of the patriarchal hierarchy. So like, whether or not, and I think I categorically reject this idea that ex Mormons are miserable and sad and pathetic, I think we know by prescription drug abuse or porn abuse or child sexual abuse, all the different indicators, there are a lot of super unhappy Mormon men and women in the church.

Samantha Shelley [02:58:01] And it's like, let ex Mormons be sad, lonely and pathetic. Like we're in late stage capitalism. A lot of people are dealing with that around the world. This isn't a Mormon ex Mormon thing.

John Dehlin [02:58:09] Yeah, well, I just hate the trope that they're perpetuating when, when in reality these women on the show are actually still by and large self identifying and many of them faithful Mormons.

Samantha Shelley [02:58:19] Yeah, the show in no way goes far enough in like condemning the, like, they're still trying to uplift this culture to a degree that I find very uncomfortable because I'm like, yes, they so clearly are trapped by patriarchy, but they don't even know it's.

John Dehlin [02:58:32] Yeah, yeah. So they go on to write that they lead Latter Day. One of the bad things about the show is that it leads Latter Day Saint women to think about Utah women as being women with blonde hair and Stanley cups. What do you guys think about that? Is that a betrayal of truth to, to, to portray Utah women as, as being blonde with Stanley cups?

Alyssa Witbeck [02:58:54] I have a Stanley cup and I had blonde hair.

Samantha Shelley [02:58:55] Some of us are blonde with Stanley,

Alyssa Witbeck [02:58:57] I ran out of money, so it

Samantha Shelley [02:58:59] can be pricey to be blind.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:59:00] It is, yeah.

Guest 2 [02:59:01] It's an investment.

John Dehlin [02:59:03] All right. It goes on to basically say data can shine a light on the lives of Latter Day Saint women. Latter Day Saints have higher marriage rates, lower divorce rates, and they have more kids than the national average. So they're basically flexing and bragging about having.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:59:20] Which is obviously they're saying that is objectively good.

Guest [02:59:24] I.

John Dehlin [02:59:24] That's part of the problem if these kids are, number one, not happy or not being parented well. But also if they're leaving the church in Mass, like, that's just a. A bigger defection problem for the church later. Anyway, it goes on to basically say factors like having a stable marriage and kids correlate with higher levels of reported happiness. So does religiosity, you know. And it basically goes on to say that an analysis of 9,9566 married men and women found actively religious couples report higher levels of relationship quality and sexual satisfaction than their secular or less religious counterparts. So they're basically saying married people who are in happy, stable marriages have better sex and are happier and more stable in their lives than what these women apparently are modeling, which is unstable marriages and eventual divorce.

John Dehlin [03:00:19] And as I understand it, all of the. The faithful Mormon women in this cast are divorced at the time of the recording of the show. Is that your understanding?

Alyssa Witbeck [03:00:30] No. Well, the women that were swinging swingers.

Samantha Shelley [03:00:34] That's from the.

John Dehlin [03:00:34] All the women who are swingers are divorced.

Samantha Shelley [03:00:36] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:00:37] Okay.

Samantha Shelley [03:00:37] The three couples.

John Dehlin [03:00:38] Okay. I apologize for that mistake.

Samantha Shelley [03:00:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:00:40] Anyway, what do y' all think about these stats that Hannah Syriac is throwing down?

Samantha Shelley [03:00:44] I mean, something like relationship. Relationship quality is so subjective or sexual satisfaction. I mean, it is true that sometimes humans prefer to have less choices, but it's all just, it's self reported. Qualitative data is interesting. Like, I bet if you asked, I don't know, like Demi on the show, who in season seven, spoiler alert. We saw like clearly being in a relationship with an abusive man. Like, just. There's no way to like sugarcoat it. I bet if you asked her on a good phase of the cycle, Michael, whether she was happy in her relationship, she'd say yes. It's amazing. Like, if you. Anyone in like, I'm not trying to paint like all religious marriages as like more unhealthy, but I do think like patriarchy lends itself to more like abusive or toxic dynamics.

Samantha Shelley [03:01:28] If you ask people who are religious and that like every Mormon knows if you're filling out A survey, and you're saying you're lds, and then it's like, what's your marriage quality? Like, blah, blah. You want to give a favorable impression. And I also just think Mormonism trains you to just like, I don't know, like, toxic positivity is like, such a thing, and you don't know that you can do better. And there's so much there. Like, we also. The statistic about sexual satisfaction, but we just watched a room full of women talk about, like, one of them has had two kids and never orgasmed.

John Dehlin [03:01:58] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [03:01:58] And they don't even believe in vibrators.

Alyssa Witbeck [03:02:01] Right. So it's like, if we're talking to a community that doesn't have sexual education, that is in a very, very, you know, box idea of what sexual purity and sexual experiences can even be like. It seems like that's even a difficult question to ask about what sexual satisfaction would look like. So. Yeah, I guess it just. I don't feel like those particular statistics, based on the way those questions are phrased here, really gives us a better understanding that, like, basically it's saying is that Mormon women and men are telling us they're happy. And that's not really surprising because I think everybody who's in the church, when they're in the church, say, says that they're happy.

Samantha Shelley [03:02:33] You have to convince yourself of that because otherwise you're a sinner, because blessed are those who keep the commandments.

John Dehlin [03:02:38] What about the stat that she throws down as for rate of infidelity among married church members? Family studies. BYU professor Dean Busby said it is so low you could barely see it. So they're saying that infidelity in Mormon marriages pretty much doesn't exist.

Samantha Shelley [03:02:56] I'm. It's hard to know whether the repression is leading to. To lower infidelity and whether that's good or whether it's like, they truly cannot reckon with it. And so it's either, like, not discovered or would never even be reported. They can't even.

Alyssa Witbeck [03:03:10] I don't know if they're being honestly reporting. Yeah.

Britt Hartley [03:03:13] It's.

John Dehlin [03:03:14] I just. I have a hard time believing that stat.

Samantha Shelley [03:03:17] I can see the structure of Mormonism making it just, like, functionally harder for people to cheat. Like, for example, like, women who, like, don't. Don't get to, like, leave their house and go to a job. Like, they just have, like, less opportunity. Yeah. And you have, like, eight kids. Like, when are you gonna go and have.

John Dehlin [03:03:32] Not working outside the home. And they have 12 babies.

Samantha Shelley [03:03:35] Yeah. So it's like, yeah, okay. And on some level, like, in other

John Dehlin [03:03:39] words, if you put a woman in jail.

Samantha Shelley [03:03:41] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:03:42] If you put a woman in jail, she's less likely to cheat.

Samantha Shelley [03:03:44] Very well said, John. Very well said.

John Dehlin [03:03:48] All right. It goes on to basically say that this show is a classic example, Example, among others, of misrepresenting religion and people of faith for entertainment purposes. And in reality, that is not what people actually want. Oh, that's not what people want. It's the most popular show. I don't know what they're smoking. All right, this last thing I know you both know a little bit about Mormon history. This was the most super bizarre part of the entire article. Are you guys ready to be blown away?

Samantha Shelley [03:04:17] Oh, God, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:04:18] Okay, check this out. So. So Hannah ends the article by talking about the Relief Society, that it's an 8 million latter day saint women organization all over the world run by men. And we all right. And we all know that the Relief Society is amazing. And then it even goes on. She takes the bold step of going on to quote that when the Relief Society was organized, the first president, Emma Smith, said, we are going to do something extraordinary. We expect extraordinary occasions and pressing calls, blah, blah, blah.

Samantha Shelley [03:04:49] Very high rates of infidelity in the Smith family.

John Dehlin [03:04:51] Okay, can I just say, like, do we note that Emma. Why did Emma Smith quit the Relief Society?

Alyssa Witbeck [03:04:58] Because all of the women in her presidency were sleeping with her husband. And also Brigham Young was like, I don't think we actually want all these women to have any idea.

Samantha Shelley [03:05:07] Talking together is kind of comfortable.

John Dehlin [03:05:11] Yeah, yeah. Should we be invoking Emma Smith and the Relief Society, of all things, when we're talking about marital infidelity?

Guest 2 [03:05:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:05:18] Is there something. Something clueless and tone deaf about that feels.

Alyssa Witbeck [03:05:21] Yeah. So ironic.

Samantha Shelley [03:05:23] And if we're talking about misrepresentations of the religion, when has the church ever released a non misrepresentative depiction of Joseph and Emma's life? Right.

Alyssa Witbeck [03:05:31] If we're talking about misrepresentation of religion and then she's quoting Emma and the religious Society as like, the epitome of women empowerment. Three sentences after talking about how we're using, you know, these reality TV shows distastefully, which is also kind of going back to that idea, too, that Britt was saying earlier, like, that we have this stigma that reality TV is inherently dumb. And, like, whether you like reality TV or not, like, it's. This is not a show that's supposed to promote faith. Or, you know, this is a show about people, and it's like, it's just supposed to Be fun and. And kind of silly. And then there's a lot of, I think, really important elements to talk about. But she's more. I think she seems like she's just offended by just like, the concept of reality TV more generally.

Samantha Shelley [03:06:15] Yeah. And I'm sure there's like, a lot that is just triggering, even for ex Mormons. I feel like there's something about the show that just feels so triggering because it is so familiar, yet so different. But it's also like, the average Mormon woman doesn't have a million followers on TikTok and a Hulu show. So, like, yeah, these are not like average Mormon women. Women. I think, to. To speak like, the average outsider is not thinking, oh, this is how every Mormon woman is. They're like, this is a Mormon woman with a TV show, obviously with tons of followers.

John Dehlin [03:06:42] Yeah. All right, so it's time to kind of wrap up. I have kind of a final question. Well, first of all, do y' all think that this show is going to make Mormon girls and young women more liberated, more career oriented, more loosey goosey with the standards? Is this going to lead to a more permissive, more laxed culture as it relates to law of chastity, word of wisdom, modesty, you know, purity culture, kind of stuff? Like, could this actually have a deleterious effect from the standpoint of the Brethren on Mormon Church standards observance or from the standpoint of the cast members, could this show lead to a loosening of moral standards with amongst Mormon women and a broader tent of better sexual satisfaction, of having more fun, of getting tattoos and piercings and sexual exploration, etc. Etc. What do you guys think about that? Y' all gals think about that?

Samantha Shelley [03:07:53] I don't really feel like there's anything particularly progressive or liberating about what I've seen in the show so far. So the benefit to me would come through the discourse that happens around it. Because as far as I can, like, it's like, yeah, they're like, oh, you can be a bit more loose about. But they're not even really saying you can be more loose about, like, the law of chastity or anything. I guess they're like, you can have a vibrator, but.

Guest 2 [03:08:19] But.

Alyssa Witbeck [03:08:19] And that's still even said with like, a cautionary tale.

Britt Hartley [03:08:23] Yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [03:08:23] In the story itself, the whole vibe

Samantha Shelley [03:08:25] is just like, you can break the rules and still belong to the patriarchal structure. Woo. And it's like, okay, but like, But I'm far more concerned with, like, let's. Let's let's deconstruct the patriarchal structure. Like, that's the issue here. And there's ways that even though they're, you know, being liberated in some ways by, like, breaking the rules and having it. Glass of champagne, they're also upholding the pa. I know they're also upholding the patriarchy at the same time because they're still. And this is like, no shade to anyone who does this. I truly do not care. But it's like they're still, like, getting boob jobs and they're still like, falling into this very, like, hyper feminine aesthetic that is very, like, you know, it's very male gazy. And so that you can see how they are these. They're making these, like, very early attempts at, like, individuation or liberation.

Guest 2 [03:09:11] But.

Samantha Shelley [03:09:12] But they don't really know what the problem is enough to actually liberate themselves. And so the only way they can really feel out how to do it is to just, like, start breaking some of the rules. But the rules are almost like the least important piece. Like, I guess if the rules help you experience, you know, if you have a glass of champagne and you experience yourself in a new context, maybe even if you do soft swinging and you experience yourself in a new context, there is a way that can be, like, helpful for the psyche at, like, moving towards liberation, but there's not. They're not really doing anything progressive. I guess the vibrator thing, if. If we want to give them a

John Dehlin [03:09:43] point, it's baby steps. All right. What do you think, Alyssa?

Final Reflections and Closing Thoughts

Alyssa Witbeck [03:09:46] Yeah, I. I don't think that this show is going to do a lot to drastically change the culture, drastically liberate women and young women. I could. What I think has the potential to do that is probably just more and more content being put out about the church. And I think that that is a. Probably a good direction because the church. Church, you know, people are going to just be seeing Mormons living more loosely, housewives and this show and tick tock and people writing books and people, you know, doing what other forms of media exists, podcasts, whatever. I think just showing more and more options is really the only way I can envision this, you know, making young women and girls feel like there's alternate choices.

Alyssa Witbeck [03:10:26] But I feel like, if anything, like the discourse around this from Mormons and Mormon leaders, if we're talking about active, fully believing members, they're going to be just really put off by the show. The church is, you know, make being coming more hardlined. I think in response to the show Members are being more hardlined in response to the show based on the comments that we're seeing, based on the statement that the church came out with even before this show premiered. And so maybe, like, five years down the road, people will be like, oh, yeah, remember that show? They were so loose. Maybe I can be loose.

Alyssa Witbeck [03:10:55] But I think, like, if we're talking about right now, in 2024, September of 2024, before all of the conversation on this is super shamey. It's kind of like how people were saying 10 years ago that ordained women, like, which had, I think, so much potential and I think has done a lot of potential as far as. Or has done a lot of good and, you know, letting women, like, pray in general conference and things like that. But the comments from, yeah, like, one time, maybe you can wear pants on your mission if you're in a certain area.

Alyssa Witbeck [03:11:22] But I think the response from Mormons was just so appalled and so shocked and, like, Mormons and conversations were just thinking the whole concept was disgusting. I think that might make Mormons now, Mormon women now who are thinking, maybe garments don't matter as much every single day. Maybe I should just wear them in the temple. They're seeing just bombardments of comments and judgment and public conversations. I'm sure wards right now are like, did you see that? Like, that was so gross. Like, it wouldn't be surprising to me if, like, testimony meeting is really being filled with just, like, quick quips of why this is bad.

Alyssa Witbeck [03:11:54] Again, that statement how this is, like, so salacious and not a good thing that I would think if I was Mormon, it would probably make me more conservative if I was watching it.

John Dehlin [03:12:05] And there could be a standards retrenchment on the. On the part of the Brethren. They see that. They see this fear that Mormons will become more laxed about garments and alcohol and sexual exploration, and they crack down even harder.

Samantha Shelley [03:12:18] That's possible.

Alyssa Witbeck [03:12:18] Which I think is also related to whatever. I don't remember who it was that said something recently about how women needed to stop wearing yoga pants so they could wear their garments more, which felt like, please.

Britt Hartley [03:12:31] Which in some ways feels like a

Alyssa Witbeck [03:12:32] little bit of reflection on mom talk, specifically because they are always, like, in leggings and not wearing garments.

Samantha Shelley [03:12:38] And they're working out a lot.

Alyssa Witbeck [03:12:39] They are.

Samantha Shelley [03:12:39] But they need to dress up. Absolutely.

Alyssa Witbeck [03:12:42] Exactly. Like, they need to be in, like, active wear to do what they're doing. Exactly. But the Brethren sure don't like.

Guest [03:12:48] Like that.

Samantha Shelley [03:12:49] So I think it's funny how, like, the most, like, salacious Non Mormon thing that happens in the show is kind of like the beginning, like the soft swinging scandal. Right. That's what started all of this. But even that only happened because the men wanted it to happen. Exactly.

Alyssa Witbeck [03:13:03] Kind of sexy.

Samantha Shelley [03:13:04] The most radical departure from patriarchy in the show, which is like women being allowed to explain, experience, pleasure with other men, you know, like a reversal of the Joseph Smith thing is still just, like, so driven by the patriarch in this instance. Also, someone called me out for saying that Demi's husband was abusive, but it was actually Jen's.

John Dehlin [03:13:23] Oh, that's right. It was Jen's. Yeah. Just felt we'll get to. And that's a good segue, because even though it's time to wrap up this episode, please know that we will be covering the remaining episodes in at least one to two more. More Mormon stories.

Samantha Shelley [03:13:38] You're having us back for it, right? Yeah. You, like. You can't tear us away from this. We are the primary commentators on this show.

John Dehlin [03:13:44] Okay? So right now, I'm gonna ask all the commenters to say yes or no. Thumbs up, Samantha. Thumbs up or thumbs down, Alyssa. Thumbs up or thumbs down.

Samantha Shelley [03:13:53] Some of you are gonna want to do a thumbs down. I'm begging you. This is my dream job.

John Dehlin [03:13:56] Or you can give them a rating. You can say Samantha. Alyssa.

Alyssa Witbeck [03:14:01] The goal is to pit women against women here.

Guest [03:14:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:14:06] Let's have a little bit of a secret Housewives dynamic right here on Mormon Stories. All right. Give them each your number rating. Give me a 10. Because this is still a patriarchy, after all. Exactly right.

Samantha Shelley [03:14:16] John's will swap us out with different women next week.

Alyssa Witbeck [03:14:22] Like, more eloquent women that are units.

John Dehlin [03:14:24] John will not do any swapping of women stories. That will not happen. No, we. I would love to have you guys back. I hope Britt will come back. Yeah, we hope to have Julie de Azevedo Hanks.

Alyssa Witbeck [03:14:35] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:14:36] As well. She was gonna come today, but she was out of town. Anyway, we're gonna do more of this, so please know this is just part one in a series. We're grateful to Julia and Maven and Gerardo that helped with some of the production stuff. Thanks, Alyssa. And Samantha, do you want to plug your stuff really quick? Yes.

Alyssa Witbeck [03:14:54] I'm a writer. Read my stuff on my website, Alyssa, @back.com. the essay that I've been plugging for this recently is called Freeing Lucy. It's actually very relevant to the conversations here. So go read that. It's on Mayday magazine.

John Dehlin [03:15:07] All right. And.

Alyssa Witbeck [03:15:09] And tick tock, words.

John Dehlin [03:15:10] Lys.

Alyssa Witbeck [03:15:11] Lys.

John Dehlin [03:15:12] Words.

Samantha Shelley [03:15:13] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:15:13] And you're not coaching right now?

Alyssa Witbeck [03:15:15] No.

Samantha Shelley [03:15:15] Okay.

John Dehlin [03:15:16] Seems like everyone's a coach.

Samantha Shelley [03:15:17] I know everyone just kind of.

Alyssa Witbeck [03:15:18] You can sign up for my university English class. You can see me there. Teach English.

John Dehlin [03:15:25] You're not saying where you teach?

Alyssa Witbeck [03:15:26] No, I was thinking about that and I was like, actually, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:15:30] There's some, there's some odd people out there. Samantha, how do people find you and follow you?

Samantha Shelley [03:15:35] I'm everywhere on Self on the shelf. YouTube is kind of our main platform. And also if you're someone going through a faith deconstruction journey and you're looking for a coach, I also do coaching@samanth.

John Dehlin [03:15:47] Shellycoaching.com that's Shelley. Ey, right?

Samantha Shelley [03:15:50] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:15:50] Yeah. All right. And please subscribe to this YouTube channel. Please like it, Please share it. Thank you. If you're a donor to Mormon Stories, the Oba Stories foundation, we pay our participants and we use the donations to make sure women and everyone gets paid. So please thank you for your donations. If you're a monthly donor, we lose donors every month. 10 to 20 donors who are recurring donors cancel every month, month. And if y' all don't step up to replace these canceling donors, then we have to cut back on panels or on programming. So if you value this content, if you want to see continue, please go to MormonStories.org click on the Donate button.

John Dehlin [03:16:33] Become a monthly donor. You can do a one time donation, you can become a monthly donor, you can become a weekly donor, you can become an annual donor. But please support us. We also really appreciate the super chats, the donations to YouTube and again the likes and the subscribes and sharing these episodes with family and friends. Please share this. Please share this with all the the secret, you know, lives of Mormon wives cast members. We would love to have some of the some or all of the cast members on Mormon Stories podcast. I've already reached out to several of them. They're doing the rounds nationally.

John Dehlin [03:17:11] Only one of them has gotten back with me, but one of them did did say she would come on the show, but I haven't confirmed it so. So I'm not going to say their name yet, but at least one said she would. We'll see if she follows through.

Samantha Shelley [03:17:23] Also, if any of them are watching, me and Alyssa are available for brunch anytime.

Alyssa Witbeck [03:17:27] Anytime. We're great.

John Dehlin [03:17:30] That could be in season two.

Samantha Shelley [03:17:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:17:32] Maybe y' all will join season two just like us.

Britt Hartley [03:17:34] I would love to.

John Dehlin [03:17:36] All right.

Samantha Shelley [03:17:37] We are willing to get the jizz hair extensions if needs be to fit.

Alyssa Witbeck [03:17:40] I don't even care. I will change house for us.

John Dehlin [03:17:45] All right. Yeah. So we hope to have you all on Mormon Stories as well. Please forward this episode to all the cast members and and annoy them, bother them, vex them until they all agree to come on the show. All right. Thanks again for joining us today. Thanks for all the great comments and questions. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. Check out if you want want secret lives of Mormon Wives on Hulu. And join us again soon for another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Yeah. Thanks, guys. Take care, everyone.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.