Introduction and Episode Overview

Part 1 of 3 · Ep. 412

Guest [00:00:01] Come, come, ye saints. No toil nor labor fear, but with joy wend your way.

John Dehlin [00:00:16] This interview is a joint production of Mormon Stories Podcast and Gay Mormon Stories Podcast. To check out the video version of this episode, go to YouTube.com mormonstories to keep these podcasts alive, please consider a financial contribution today mormonstories.org and gaymormonstories.org and thanks for listening. Hello and welcome to a special edition of Valentine's Day special edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host John Dehlin and we are at KRCL Studios in Salt Lake City. Thanks to Troy Williams again on Valentine's Day 2013. And we have with us two very special guests. We have Laurel and Josh Weed. Laurel is also known as Lolly. I'm so happy to have you guys here on Mormon Stories. I've been wanting to interview you guys for a long time and so thanks for coming.

Josh Weed [00:01:15] Our pleasure. We're excited to be here.

John Dehlin [00:01:18] All the way from Washington.

Josh Weed [00:01:19] That's right.

Guest [00:01:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:01:21] So Josh and Lally sort of hit the. Hit the Mormon consciousness around, what was it, June of 2012?

Josh Weed [00:01:33] June 7th.

John Dehlin [00:01:34] Yeah, June 7th. When Josh came out publicly as a gay believing LDS man, father of three, married to Lali in what is sort of termed in the academic world as a mixed orientation marriage, which is a marriage where one of the members of the marriage is heterosexual and the other is in Mormon vernacular, same sex attracted or elsewhere, homosexual or gay or lesbian. So this created quite a bit of talk and conversation and a lot of it I think has been constructive where people want to understand, some are confused, some are angry, some are excited, some feel validated. And I'm just delighted to be able to give you guys a chance to tell your stories here on Mormon Stories and sort of clarify what you were and aren't, what you are saying, what you're not saying, what your background is. I should also mention that this is sort of a co branded podcast with another podcast that we do called Gay Mormon Stories. Sometimes we kind of share programming, but I also want to mention the good work that the folks are doing there. Okay, so to begin with, I guess I just wanted to start like we always start on Mormon Stories with a little bit of your background. So Josh, why don't you start, just tell us a little bit about your family heritage and where the church comes into that.

Family Background and LDS Heritage

Josh Weed [00:03:12] Family heritage. Okay. Well, we're going way back, so yeah, I'm a multi generational LDS person. I don't really have any notables in my past. Irish and Swedish is Where I come, where my family hails from. So, yeah, probably six or seven generations, something like that. I'm a horrible person that I don't know. Clearly family history has not been touched as much it should be. But you were raised LDs. Raised LDs in Kearns, Utah. I was born in Provo. My parents met at byu. Kind of a very traditional story. And then they moved to Kearns when I was about 4 and my dad started teaching seminary for what was then ces and. Yeah, so raised in the church. And when I was 16, moved from Kearns, Utah to Portland, Oregon. And our stories overlap. Like it's almost impossible not to kind of intertwine the story. So in Kearns, we. Lolly and I met in Kearns. Our dads were. My dad was the bishop of our ward when I was seven. And her dad was his counselor all five years that they were in together. So they're really good friends. And we. Yeah, so we met then elementary school, knew each other, you know, not too well because we're like seven. But then in junior high we started to get to know each other a little bit more. And her family moved to Portland, Oregon in junior when we were both in junior high. And my family ended up moving to the same exact suburb of Portland, Oregon, like a year and a half later.

John Dehlin [00:05:12] And there was no job connection.

Josh Weed [00:05:14] No job connection. Total serendipity. Total.

John Dehlin [00:05:17] This is. This is divinely inspired from the beginning.

Josh Weed [00:05:21] This is how we view it. Honestly, it is how we look at it.

John Dehlin [00:05:25] And is it okay if I call you Lali?

Lolly Weed [00:05:27] Oh, yeah, that's fine.

John Dehlin [00:05:29] So any quick reflections on that time?

Lolly Weed [00:05:32] Oh, growing up?

John Dehlin [00:05:33] Yeah. Yeah.

Lolly Weed [00:05:36] I mean, I don't remember life without Josh. Like he's always been in my life and we lived on the same street in Utah and then we both moved to Portland. And he's just always been there.

Josh Weed [00:05:50] For better or worse.

Lolly Weed [00:05:51] Yeah. So obviously we were both raised LDs since we grew up in the same ward.

John Dehlin [00:05:55] And you met at what age?

Josh Weed [00:05:57] I was three.

Lolly Weed [00:05:58] Yeah, he was three. I was like four.

John Dehlin [00:06:00] And your earliest memories are. What age do you think of life?

Josh Weed [00:06:04] Of being each other? Yeah, she has an earlier one than me.

Lolly Weed [00:06:09] Yeah. Well, I don't know if it's my memory or my best friend's memory, but we talked about just when he moved in, me and my best friend were out on my front porch and up walks this little boy, two little boys holding hands, holding hands with my brother,

Josh Weed [00:06:26] with his little brother, like knee high tube socks.

Lolly Weed [00:06:29] And my friend's like, who is that new boy? So that was how I first met Josh as a little three year old. Although I wonder why you were walking up the street as a three year old.

Josh Weed [00:06:42] I don't know. Lenient parents, I guess.

John Dehlin [00:06:45] And Josh, what are your first memories of Lolly?

Josh Weed [00:06:47] I remember Lolly. I remember just almost like the concept of Lolly. She was older, she was a grade ahead of me, and she was popular and even in elementary school. And I just remember probably one of my first actual, like, visceral memories of her was her giving a talk when we were really young. I was probably 9 or 10 and she was 11 or 12.

Lolly Weed [00:07:12] I would have had to been 12.

Josh Weed [00:07:13] Yeah. And yeah, I remember just being oppressed by her articulateness and some of the things that she said really kind of touched me even then at that point.

John Dehlin [00:07:23] And so at what age did you guys become friends?

Josh Weed [00:07:26] Junior high. Like a couple years after that. We. I sat down next to her at the, when I was in eighth grade at the lunch table. She was the student body president of our, of our junior high. Yes.

Lolly Weed [00:07:40] Fame to fame.

Josh Weed [00:07:41] It's pretty, pretty intense. And so we, yeah, I sat next to her and we kind of became friends. And we had done a couple. We served at a wedding together like a year or so before that and had gotten along really well.

Lolly Weed [00:07:56] Enjoyed each other's time together. Yeah.

What the Church Meant Growing Up

John Dehlin [00:07:59] And Lalee, what did the church mean to you growing up?

Lolly Weed [00:08:04] It meant a lot to me. My parents did a great job of just being good examples to me, but I didn't feel forced to do anything. And I just was one of those kids that was very aware of things. And I remember hearing the phrase, like, I know this is the only true church. And being very concerned because my grandparents went to a different church. They were Mormon. But my concept was the building itself was the true church. And so I was worried. And then, you know, talking to my mom about that and her saying, no, it's all, you know, the LDS faith, they're just different buildings. And so I was always listening, always paying attention. And it was very important to me from a young age to like, understand things for myself and to not take anybody's word. I wanted to know for myself. And so that's. It's always been important to me. My faith has been basically who I am. And I really feel like my parents were a lot of that just because. Because they were really supportive and very real with me all the time. And so I felt free to kind of explore and ask questions.

John Dehlin [00:09:27] Nice. How about you, Josh?

Josh Weed [00:09:30] Similar. Very important to me. And it's interesting that. Because the talk that I remember Lolly giving was a talk where she explained how she had developed a portion of her testimony of the church. And I remember being really impressed by her, the certainty with which she spoke and the spirit with which she spoke. And it was one of the first times that I was like, I kind of want to know that too, you know, like, I don't know if I was as aware as cognizant of what was going on around me. And that was one of my first moments of kind of like, wanting to develop something for myself in terms of comprehension of what's going on around me. And so. But, yeah, always very important to me and an integral part of my growing up. And it's good, you know, largely positive component of my upbringing. I, too, my parents were. We both have very. Our parents have very similar styles in that they were, you know, there were. There were expectations, but they were very kind of. They allowed us liberty to explore ideas and do what we wanted to do, always with a very supportive backdrop, but never any pressure or never any kind of pushing us any direction, which was helpful.

John Dehlin [00:11:03] When do you think you gained your testimony? By what age?

Josh Weed [00:11:06] Differing levels over time.

Guest [00:11:10] So.

Josh Weed [00:11:11] But like, 16, 17 is when I read. Read the Book of Mormon for the first time and really kind of like, started getting into it.

Guest [00:11:22] And.

Josh Weed [00:11:23] And I don't know, there were. I mean, there were. There were traces of it, but also, like, I remember as a sophomore going to seminary and being in seminary. My dad was a seminary teacher. And I remember listening to my seminary teacher and being like, this is. This is total boulder dash. Like, my dad is totally confused, you know, so, you know, like, there's. There's a process. I don't know if I can define a specific moment of certitude, but for sure. But yeah.

Josh Discovering His Sexual Orientation

John Dehlin [00:11:53] So

Guest [00:11:55] when.

John Dehlin [00:11:55] When did you first kind of notice your attractions and, you know, how did you process that as you were. Usually it happens during kind of puberty for many people. How did you start experiencing that? And what was it like to be Mormon believing have your dad as a seminary teacher? Yeah, and you're starting to feel attractions.

Josh Weed [00:12:18] So I was, you know, I had, like, some really early fantasy, like memories at age 5, but nothing like, set in stone. I can just retrospectively look back and be like, oh, yeah, that existed, you know, but the first, like you pointed out, it's kind of, you know, the onset of puberty is when one begins to have those sexual stirrings. And that was exactly it for me. Age 12, around there, I remember going to A maturation clinic, which is like where they go, you know, in sixth grade. And you go with your parents, and they're like, this is what will happen. And I'll, you know, explain it in detail.

John Dehlin [00:12:59] And.

Josh Weed [00:13:00] And so I had been anticipating developing feelings for girls because that's what was scripted. That's what I was told would happen. And so there was a period of time where I was. Where I, you know, where the thing for guys was happening. But I just thought it was incidental maybe, you know, I was just waiting for the real. The real deal to kick in. And then at around age 13, I realized, like, oh, wait, this is the thing for girls is not going to happen. And this. These feelings that I have for guys are absolutely real and kind of the replacement. And it's what my body apparently is doing. And so.

John Dehlin [00:13:44] So there's this term in psychology, ego syntonic versus ego dystonic. Ego syntonic means it feels right, it feels natural, it feels like a part of you, and it's almost one with who you are. Ego dystonic is like, wait a minute, why is this happening? This isn't me. I don't want this to be happening. Are you saying it was kind of ego dystonic?

Josh Weed [00:14:03] It was definitely ego dystonic. And I don't know if that's because of the cultural, you know, situation that I found myself in. I have no idea if it would have felt ego dystonic in a different environment.

John Dehlin [00:14:17] Right.

Josh Weed [00:14:17] But for sure, where I was did not jive with the expectations that I had for myself, nor with, so the expect the outside expectations, nor just with my internal kind of what I anticipated for my future. And, you know, so.

John Dehlin [00:14:38] So you were just saying, what's going on here? How do I. How do I get rid of this? I don't want this.

Josh Weed [00:14:43] It wasn't. I wasn't at that point. So, like, let's get this out of here. But it was more just like, oh, wow, okay, so this is happening.

Lolly Weed [00:14:54] And.

Josh Weed [00:14:55] And it wasn't pleasant. You know, it wasn't like a pleasant realization. It was time. It was a troubling realization. So it. It was something that. It was confusing, you know, which I guess makes sense because every cultural cue, both ecclesiastical and secular, you know, just every cultural cue is indicating that things will be one way and then it's this other thing. And so it's weird. It's a very weird feeling. Very disconcerting.

John Dehlin [00:15:25] It's. Okay, so from 13 to whatever age, how did you deal with it?

Coming Out to Family and Early Conversations

Josh Weed [00:15:31] So when I was 13, I told my dad.

John Dehlin [00:15:35] You just came out to him.

Josh Weed [00:15:37] I came out to him.

John Dehlin [00:15:37] Had you heard what gay was or had you seen it on the street?

Josh Weed [00:15:40] I apparently I had some conception because, I mean, I self identified as gay even then, even in that conversation. And so, yeah, I must have had some awareness, though I can't cite where that came from. But the. But yeah. And he was. So at that time he was in the stake presidency and he was a seminary teacher, you know, but his career before that he was a social worker. He got his degree in social work and he had done some. He had worked for social services and he had done some work in sexuality. And so he was, he was, you know, he responded very well.

Lolly Weed [00:16:27] Not easily phased.

Josh Weed [00:16:28] He was not going to be phased by me sitting down and talking.

John Dehlin [00:16:30] I'm just surprised you weren't too scared to even tell him. Like, so many people come out. I think the average age that we've found in our data self Reporting is around 22, 23, where LDS people come out. So 13 seems extraordinarily early.

Guest [00:16:46] Yeah.

Lolly Weed [00:16:47] If you knew his dad, I don't

Josh Weed [00:16:48] know what to attribute that to.

Lolly Weed [00:16:50] His dad is very easy to talk to and I think you felt very comfortable.

Josh Weed [00:16:55] And my dad had fostered. Had systematically fostered an environment where I would feel comfortable talking about sexual issues. So there was a long period of me like I didn't consciously do this, but looking back, I think that what I was doing was testing the water. So I take him downstairs and be like, okay, I heard this word, you know, such and such. What is it? And he, he'd just tell me what it was and be.

John Dehlin [00:17:16] You were kind of feeling him out a little bit.

Josh Weed [00:17:17] Yeah, I think I was just testing the waters and seeing how it would go and Must have been subconsciously, but yeah. And so when the time came that I was ready to have that conversation, I knew that it was a safe thing to do and that he would respond well. And he said, he said several things. He said that. I'm trying to remember all. There's like various things. First, he responded by saying that he wasn't totally surprised because he knew me, you know, and I had had some kind of effeminate tendencies. And not saying that that's even correlated always, but he had just had some. He just knew me as his child. And so he was like, okay, that kind of makes some sense. And he was very validating of what I was saying. He did not question what I was asserting at all. He did not try and indicate that it was a phase or you Know, he was not. He didn't doubt what I was saying in the least. I'm trying to remember at the fireside that we were just at. He said that he did say something that.

Lolly Weed [00:18:32] Do you remember what I was saying? He said that he was trying to kind of understand where you were coming from. He said, oh, yeah, no, I totally. I totally get it, because, you know, I can identify with you because if I were to do what I would want to do sexually all the time, I'd be out sleeping with, like, four or five women, you know, so I have to suppress my sexuality, too. And then Josh.

Josh Weed [00:18:56] And my response was like, no, this is so much deeper than, you know. Like, this is. This is so much broader than that. And so, yeah, he said.

Lolly Weed [00:19:10] When you said, I mean, dad, do you realize that if I'm gonna stay in the church, I will never be able to fulfill this sexual desire? So it is not like you because you at least have mom, you know? And so he said it was kind of like a. Oh, you're teaching me right now. Something I had not even thought of.

Josh Weed [00:19:30] Right. But then the kind of culmination of the conversation was that he verbalized that he would love me no matter what I chose to do, which, you know, pat that guy on the back. Like, seriously, it was like. That was. I needed. I 100% needed to hear that, especially at that point, because I was obviously just starting my journey, and I had no idea what it would entail. And having that knowledge kind of in the back of my mind was really important so that I didn't feel pressured to do anything that didn't feel right to me.

John Dehlin [00:20:16] What year was this?

Josh Weed [00:20:18] 1993. Would have been maybe 94. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:22] Okay. So how did adolescents. How did adolescence go after that? Did you, you know.

Josh Weed [00:20:33] Sucked.

John Dehlin [00:20:35] Sucked.

Josh Weed [00:20:35] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:36] Why?

Josh Weed [00:20:37] I was bullied in junior high pretty extensively. I wasn't, like, flamingly kind of homosexual, but I definitely had effeminate characteristics. There's this classic footage that has been shown on some shows where it's a birthday party, and I do like the Vogue, like the Madonna, you know, like, striking a pose. So there were definitely. And I played the violin and, you know, wasn't into sports and liked words. You know, it was just not a recipe for, like, awesomeness. It was rough and, you know, there were some definite dark moments of some pretty severe bullying, actually. Yeah. And so it was not awesome. My junior high was not great high school. I moved in the move. I gained a bunch of weight, so I was really insecure and, yeah, really it didn't have many awesome years. Like, I didn't have a year that was, like, this prime moment of goodness. I had some good things going. My family was really supportive. I had some good friendships and stuff. But largely, it was a difficult time of my life, for sure.

John Dehlin [00:22:04] Were you ever attracted to a young, you know, a friend, or were you ever. Did you ever consider having a relationship or.

Josh Weed [00:22:12] I did not really. I did not really consider having a relationship. I did not really have any opportunities like that present themselves. Like I said, I had gained weight, especially, you know, by the time I was, like, in high school, so. And I had, like, really weird hair and wore, like. I look back at pictures, I'm like, what was I doing? Like, I was like, I did not get the stereotypical style thing, you know, and obviously that's totally stereotyped. But I make fun of myself as, you know, not having. Not having that talent. But, yeah, so I did not. And I didn't really have a lot of guy friends at the time, so I didn't have a situation where I could really crush on someone that was. That I was close to. They were more distant, you know, distant kinds of crushes. So.

John Dehlin [00:23:00] Yeah.

Josh Weed [00:23:01] So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:02] Did you ever. And this might extend through your mission.

Josh Weed [00:23:07] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:23:07] Did you ever try and develop a relationship with Heavenly Father, with God, to say, hey, take this away. What can I do to take it away? What can I make it to go away?

Josh Weed [00:23:19] I did not have, like. I feel like I was really lucky a lot of ways, and that's one of them. I did not. This is not to say that I did not have some expectation that it would be taken away because I went and I'd had. I mean, I would say it's. I would say it was reparative therapy, just knowing what I know about therapy. But it was not slated as that. It was through LDS Family Services. So I had therapy that. That was founded on the idea that eventually it would go away if I did certain things over time. And that was what leaders said. The first bishop that I spoke to literally did not believe that I was gay. This is when I was 16. And he would not believe it. He refused to believe that what I was saying was true. And that was really hard for me. I remember getting into fight with him, actually, like a horrible altercation with the bishop. Yeah, I did. I view this as being. Having been very good. It ended up working out well because my attitude at the time was that I was going to trust my leader and do what he said, even though he was, like, straight up wrong and just trust that the Lord would make up the difference. And that happened in multiple ways as I did that. So I can't even remember what you asked. I'm like getting tangential here.

John Dehlin [00:24:53] No, it's good. So you never tried to talk to God or get God to take it away or make it again?

Josh Weed [00:25:00] There were definitely. I mean, I'm not gonna say I never said a prayer of like, help me out, you know, like, relieve me of this. But I did not, I did not enter into what I would view as some kind of pathological performance based, you know, please, like expectation of like, please take this from me. If you love me, you will remove this from, you know, if I'm worth something to you, God, it was never tied to my self worth. So does that make sense? The clarification makes sense.

John Dehlin [00:25:34] And the reparative therapy or the therapy that you went through with LDS Family Services, the goal was to make it go away.

Josh Weed [00:25:42] The implicit goal.

John Dehlin [00:25:44] How'd that work?

Josh Weed [00:25:46] Totally doesn't.

John Dehlin [00:25:47] Does it or didn't for you or doesn't at all.

Josh Weed [00:25:49] I am going to speak broadly and say that my opinion is that it doesn't at all. I can for sure say that it did not for me.

John Dehlin [00:25:59] What did they. What types of things did you try?

Lolly Weed [00:26:04] They.

Josh Weed [00:26:04] It was like trying to even remember. It was weak. Like, you know, it was not, it was not like I was seeing Nicolosi and getting like straight up reparative therapy. It was more like just a diluted kind of like everyone has the expectation that this is going to go way if you're obedient and don't ever masturbate and stop having those pesky fantasies about God, you know, and live righteously and do good things. Like, so it. Yeah, I can't even remember specifically what, what, what. What he had me do.

John Dehlin [00:26:45] But you tried.

Josh Weed [00:26:45] But I tried. I tried to live correctly. I tried to do everything that I could do and I definitely did. There were years where I had an expectation that if I, you know, like went on a mission and got married and. And was. Did everything right, that maybe probably it could go away. You know, like, it was kind of like. Yeah, like it was that it was within the realm of possibility that it, that it could go away because that's what everyone was kind of like saying here.

John Dehlin [00:27:16] So you were hoping for that?

Josh Weed [00:27:18] Yeah, I hadn't pinned my hopes on it, but it was definitely a hope that I had.

Lolly's Feelings for Josh and Their Early Friendship

John Dehlin [00:27:24] So, Lolly, when did you first find yourself liking Josh and being attracted to him? Do you remember?

Lolly Weed [00:27:32] Yeah, that Was a long time after we were friends.

Josh Weed [00:27:38] Late in the process.

Lolly Weed [00:27:39] Yeah, we were friends. He told me that he was gay. We were just friends. And it took years for me to even think about entering into, like, a romantic relationship with him. It was a very long process.

John Dehlin [00:27:57] Was it kind of friends pre mission?

Lolly Weed [00:27:59] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:00] And then post mission?

Lolly Weed [00:28:02] No.

Josh Weed [00:28:03] Should we go through the storyline?

John Dehlin [00:28:05] Yeah.

Josh Weed [00:28:05] Okay. So I out at.

John Dehlin [00:28:08] Yeah.

Lolly Weed [00:28:09] He told me at 16, I was the first person he told besides his parents. And he felt comfortable telling me because he knew that my grandpa was gay and had left my grandma. And so he thought, okay, here's someone that at least knows what being gay is. And so he told me. And there was a lot of emotion that I had when he told me. I just felt really bad for him, thinking, what are you supposed to do? And feeling like, what are your resources? You know? And asking him, what are you going to do? What's your plan? And so then just hours and hours, I mean, years of us talking about, like, what he wanted out of life and. And things like that. I never thought it would happen with me. I mean, that first conversation, he said he wanted to get married and go on a mission. And so I remember thinking, okay, maybe. Yeah, yeah, that could be a possibility. And so at times we talk like, well, how is that going to work? What kind of a woman would marry you?

John Dehlin [00:29:23] That's true.

Lolly Weed [00:29:23] You know, this was the nature of.

Josh Weed [00:29:25] I mean, we're a youth, you know, like, we're 16, 17, 18, and.

Lolly Weed [00:29:29] And I'd say so, yeah. Like, well, obviously you're gonna have to marry someone that doesn't care about sex, you know? And he was like, whoa, no, I think that would be disastrous. You know, I think I need to find someone that. That is gonna want it or else we're gonna be in a bad situation. And I'm like, okay, maybe. I mean, it was just.

Josh Weed [00:29:48] And she was always. You were always saying. She was always saying, like, heck, no. Because she was very much looking forward to the sexual part of, like, her parents were really good at, like, shaming

Lolly Weed [00:30:01] about, teaching us, like, this is good. You're gonna like it, you know?

John Dehlin [00:30:05] So you were looking forward to that?

Lolly Weed [00:30:07] Yeah, it was, like, the highlight. In fact, I was not your typical girl. Like, I was not planning my wedding. I didn't care what my colors were. I had always planned out my honeymoon. Like, this is where we're gonna go. This is what we're gonna do. Like, I was looking forward to that. Like, consummation of marriage. Who cares what the. My wedding dress Looks like. I mean, I think I was abnormal that way. And so I was like, well, we are not gonna be a good fit. But I mean, we. He. We got to know each other really, really well. And.

Josh Weed [00:30:42] Best friends.

John Dehlin [00:30:43] Yeah.

Josh Weed [00:30:43] You know, very close.

Lolly Weed [00:30:45] And there were times where we talk, like, well, maybe something would happen. And I was like, no, yeah, it's not gonna happen. And he started dating my best friend, and I. And then he told my best friend that he was gay. And when she was okay with it, I was very surprised. Like, how can you be okay with the fact that your boyfriend is gay? Like, that's so weird. But I really respected her, and so it made me step back and look at him in a different way because he'd start talking about their relationship, and I was like, oh, you're an awesome boyfriend. Like, he would do fun things and, like, be spontaneous and things that I was looking for in, like, a boyfriend and a future husband. And so I guess, eventually, spontaneously, I ended up just saying to him that he was everything that I wanted in a future husband, all except for the gay thing. And he was like, are you serious? And I really had to stop and think, yes, you are seriously the person that is Josh.

Josh Weed [00:31:54] I mean, and we had spent years. Because part of our friendship, aside from talking about this issue, was, like, talking about her with all her.

Lolly Weed [00:32:03] He'd analyze my voice.

Josh Weed [00:32:06] And so she had lists of qualities that she wanted. And, like, so it was a very culminating moment because we had spent a long time talking about what about her and what she wanted in her future, too. And so this was a really kind of, like, huge moment where we. Where she said, like, all those lists and all that stuff we've talked about, like, it's you, you know, like, I've realized after all of these years that you fit all of those characteristics. Why am I fighting this so hard? You know?

Lolly Weed [00:32:36] But even then, like, he was like, you have to decide if I'm worth it to you. And I remember specifically saying that, like, is all of the good, everything you love about me worth taking, like, my challenges and everything that's going to come up from, you know, this issue of him being homosexual? Like, am I worth it to you? And I honestly couldn't answer that at the time. I was like, I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:33:02] And what age was this?

Lolly Weed [00:33:04] You were 19.

John Dehlin [00:33:06] So pre mission still.

Lolly Weed [00:33:07] Yeah, he hadn't gone on a mission.

John Dehlin [00:33:08] Okay, so you realized he might be the one before his mission time.

Josh Weed [00:33:14] Yeah.

Lolly Weed [00:33:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:14] Okay.

Lolly Weed [00:33:15] Very confusing, too.

Josh Weed [00:33:17] Yeah. And, like, such a weird time to have that Happen. It felt very like, what the. You know, like, I had come home from college to get ready to go on my mission, and then all of this kind of like, just organically manifested itself, and yet I was leaving. And there was almost this like, we're not even supposed to be talking, you know, like, this is like, if we

Lolly Weed [00:33:38] were gonna be good, we wouldn't be, you know, being steady dating or anything. And I just felt like there's no one to talk to about this. Like, I wasn't gonna go to my friends and be like, I love Josh. All these great qualities, but he's gay, so what do I do? Like, it was like, we weren't talking about it, so it was confusing. I was talking to my parents about it because they knew about Josh, and so they were the only ones I really could talk to.

John Dehlin [00:34:04] And, Josh, had you developed any sexual or romantic feelings for Lolly by this point? Um, erotic, whatever.

Josh Weed [00:34:13] Yeah, at that point, yeah, it was. It's so hard to describe this because. But, yeah, it is not the same as infatuation. You know, like, the infatuation that I feel for guys where it's just, like, very chemical and potent. It's different. It was different than that, but it had similar characteristics. Like when we first kind of declared, kind of established, like, yeah, we're feeling this. Like, it was really a cool time period, and there were some butterflies in the stomach and stuff, and it was. Yeah, yeah. So to answer your question, yes, at that time, that was happening.

John Dehlin [00:34:58] But you're saying you have experienced those romantic feelings for men, and it's a different quality and maybe in some ways stronger.

Josh Weed [00:35:09] Definitely stronger. The human potential for infatuation is one of the strongest forces I know of. I mean, I see clients in my office constantly whose marriages are on the brink of crumbling because one of the partners has accidentally developed those feelings for an outside unit. And it is an addiction. Like, it is very potent.

John Dehlin [00:35:35] It is.

Josh Weed [00:35:35] There is some potency there.

John Dehlin [00:35:37] And you. And you experienced this. When.

Josh Weed [00:35:40] When did I experience for.

John Dehlin [00:35:43] For a man?

Josh Weed [00:35:43] At differing points of my journey.

John Dehlin [00:35:46] Okay.

Josh Weed [00:35:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:48] Like pre mission, during mission, post mission.

Josh Weed [00:35:50] Not during marriage, not during mission.

John Dehlin [00:35:53] Okay, so it wasn't an issue during missing mission?

Josh Weed [00:35:56] No, thankfully, no.

John Dehlin [00:35:58] But yeah, at differing points in adolescence or adulthood.

Josh Weed [00:36:02] More adulthood. Like, the.

Lolly Weed [00:36:04] The.

Josh Weed [00:36:07] In fact, I was just reading my journal recently from about the time I was 18. And it was right around that point that I started. I remember. I don't remember. I recently read that. I was writing about how I was like, this is feeling. I had a crush on Someone in my ward. And it was really powerful. And I was like, this is more intense than it ever has been. You know, so there was something with age. The feelings were intensifying as I got older and became an adult. And at that time, this is about 18, right before I started college, that was the main period where I was like, listen, I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know which direction I'm gonna go, because this is feeling really, really intense. This is all. We're not being chronological. This is before what we just talked about.

John Dehlin [00:36:54] Sure.

Lolly Weed [00:36:55] So we were discussing this together as friends. Like, he's talking about his crushes with me, and I'm like, oh, yeah, that's

Josh Weed [00:37:01] really rough processing this stuff. But, yeah, at that point during that summer before. Before my freshman year of college, it was kind of like, it felt really more powerful than it had ever felt felt. And it was not something that could be easily brushed aside. You know, it was like, if I'm being real with myself, this is like, it's powerful stuff. And I. I've got to really evaluate what I want for myself.

John Dehlin [00:37:26] So anything. I don't want to just skip over the mission, but anything significant as it relates to any of this happen on

Josh Weed [00:37:34] your mission, just mail integration. I had missed the it My entire adolescence. I was like, not really. I did not get the social cues in terms of masculinity, and I had never had friendships with men. And I felt very, very scared to go on a mission because it was like. It felt very much like the world of men, you know, And I had never experienced that and didn't know if I fit in there at all, and had not really had any friendship with other guys that were. I had one roommate that I was close to, but beyond that, and so it was just really scary. And then I went and kind of submerged myself in it and ended up being amazing.

John Dehlin [00:38:16] And so had a good admission experience.

Josh Weed [00:38:18] Really positive, hard things, but overall, very positive.

John Dehlin [00:38:22] Were you avoiding relationships with men because you didn't want to become attracted to one?

Josh Weed [00:38:28] Well, let me think before answer that. I don't think so. It was more that I had no idea how to do it. I had literally just not been given the social cues. And also it was like, a lot of internal shame about my own masculinity, which I don't know how, or if that's related to gayness. I'm not sure it could be that. It's not, but. But, yeah. So issues surrounding my own kind of, like, worthiness as a male. Worthiness to be a friend. These are things that I still kind of have to work with, even in my current life.

John Dehlin [00:39:07] But never a fear that you would become attracted.

Josh Weed [00:39:11] That was never a motivator. I mean, I didn't base any decision. Relationship decisions on that. Which is not to say that that wasn't something that crossed my mind, because of course it did from time to time. But it wasn't like a. It wasn't a deep fear at all for me. So.

From Mission to Deciding to Get Married

John Dehlin [00:39:33] Okay, so how'd you get from returning home to your mission to actually taking the plunge?

Josh Weed [00:39:40] Wow. Well, it's a short story. So mission ends. I am walking out. I'm walking onto the airplane. And by the way, they had given my mission papers back to me, probably because it mentioned that I was homosexual, and maybe they didn't want to archive it or whatever. And I saw at that moment that I was supposed to have been called on a stateside mission. That's what they had checked. But in fact, I went foreign. I went to Venezuela. So that was like this big moment of like, whoa, that's amazing. You know, and getting on the plane to go home. And there was a guy that came up to the eight of us, and there was a problem with our passports, and those of us who had stickers on our passports went, got on a plane and flew home. And those with stamps were thrown in jail. Oh, yeah. So we got thrown. Taken in a paddy wagon and, you know, thrown in the local kind of like, jail unit. There we were in jail overnight is all. And they let us out of jail the next day, but they kept us in the country for what ended up being a month. Yeah. Of like, thinking we were going to leave every single day. And this torturous process. So obviously, thoughts of this crossed my mind at that time, and I had some time to evaluate things and evaluate my priorities and whatnot. Finally, eventually got home, and Wally was there, and we started talking, and things were pretty much exactly where they were when I left. And she had not waited for me. Like, when I left, it was very much like, if this is supposed to work, it will work. And if not, you know, good luck with the guy that you find. And best wishes. So we get home and it was. She had served a mission. Ended up serving a mission. And so, yeah, it was good.

John Dehlin [00:41:44] Where'd you serve all of?

Lolly Weed [00:41:45] Orlando, Florida.

John Dehlin [00:41:46] Okay.

Josh Weed [00:41:47] Spanish speaking.

John Dehlin [00:41:48] Nice.

Josh Weed [00:41:48] Yeah, so we both speak Spanish, which is fun. So,

Lolly Weed [00:41:56] yeah.

Josh Weed [00:41:56] So it was when I got home, everything kind of weighed on me pretty heavily. And I'm gonna say this. And it will sound stupid, but there was a week, one week of utter turmoil and indecisiveness. And I kind of knew what I needed to do, but it was terrible. I mean, totally petrifyingly scary.

John Dehlin [00:42:24] What were you. What were your biggest worries or fears? What were you scared?

Josh Weed [00:42:29] That it was wrong and that I was making a mistake. It was a very confusing time. So I don't know if I was thinking very clearly about, like, actual, like, long. I wasn't thinking. Like, there were no. Like, the thoughts were less concrete and more emotional based.

John Dehlin [00:42:50] Sure.

Josh Weed [00:42:50] Emotionally based, but yeah. And then I had a very kind of specific experience that let me know that I should ask her to marry me. And I did. And subsequently felt complete and total peace.

John Dehlin [00:43:05] Like, spiritual experience.

Josh Weed [00:43:07] Radiating peace. Yeah. Spiritual experience. Kind of.

Lolly Weed [00:43:11] Of kind of.

Josh Weed [00:43:14] It's different than any other spiritual experience I had ever had or since have had. It's completely unique.

John Dehlin [00:43:21] For you, it was a clear communication,

Josh Weed [00:43:23] very clear, that said, ask her to marry you. Literally those words twice. Because I asked again. I asked for a repeat because I was like, did that really just happen and. And happen again?

John Dehlin [00:43:38] And is that how Heavenly Father has communicated?

Josh Weed [00:43:41] Totally different than my. My standard. And my. My standard is, like, how. How would you describe it? She's very, like, big spiritual moment of answer. And I'm very, like, progressive, spiritual culmination answer kind of thing where and, like. And events kind of, like, align and stuff. That's kind of my modus operandi with the spirit.

John Dehlin [00:44:03] But for you, this is a very clear, specific.

Josh Weed [00:44:04] Very clear, undeniably clear.

John Dehlin [00:44:09] How about for you, Lolly?

Lolly Weed [00:44:11] Oh, when I knew I was gonna marry him.

John Dehlin [00:44:12] Yeah.

Lolly Weed [00:44:14] It was before my mission, actually, and it was very unexpected. And I have always been kind of obsessed with who I was gonna marry. Like, even as a, like, third grader, I was praying for my husband and, like, please bless him wherever he is, and help us find each other. I was very, like, romantic that way. And I continued to pray for my husband, like, throughout high school, and.

John Dehlin [00:44:41] A generic husband.

Lolly Weed [00:44:42] Yes. I didn't know who he was or anything.

Guest [00:44:47] I love that.

Lolly Weed [00:44:48] I just. It was always very. I mean, my parents had such a sweet marriage, and I wanted to. That, like, I looked around my ward, I saw marriages that weren't happy, people that I really respected. And I thought, how did they end up together? Now they're so miserable because they're great people. I did not want that to happen to me. So I was always praying for my husband. And one night, it was actually the day that I had gone through the temple for the first time. And I was very spiritually high. Like, loved the experience. And I went and was saying my evening prayer, and I went to say the thing that I had always said was, like, please bless my future husband work. And it just, like, came to me very strong, like, you already know who your future husband is. And I knew that I was gonna marry Josh, pray for him by name. Yeah. And I thought, josh is the man that I'm gonna marry. And it was very powerful to me. And so the next day, I almost was, like, expecting everyone to know. Like, I'm sure everyone in the world received this revelation. Like, I did. Like, my parents. Like, I woke up at breakfast and was like, all right. So I was expecting a letter. He's on his mission at the time, like, expecting a letter from him saying, like, so I know that, you know, he didn't get it. And I was like, why? I'm obviously not. Not gonna tell him he's on a mission, and he needs to know that for himself. So I kind of just carried it with me.

Josh Weed [00:46:18] But your mom figured it out.

Lolly Weed [00:46:19] Yeah, my mom did. Like, just one random day, we were driving, and she looked at me out of the blue and said, you're gonna marry Josh, aren't you? I was like, mom. And she's like, I know you. She's like. And you have been totally calm and peaceful. And I know it's because you think you're gonna marry Josh. You've received an answer, haven't you? I mean, my mom's really in tune with her kids. And I was like, I'm gonna marry him. And so she said, okay, I'm gonna go tell your dad. And so she went and said, mike, get used to the idea, because she's marrying that boy. And so they were supportive ever since then. But, I mean, I knew he was who I was supposed to marry.

John Dehlin [00:47:00] And they never freaked out and said, don't do it. We're scared.

Committing to the Relationship and Getting Engaged

Lolly Weed [00:47:03] No. In fact, that was it when my mom said she's received a revelation, like, she has received spiritual confirmation that Josh is the man she's supposed to marry. And they have always trusted my spirituality. And so my dad was like, okay, then that's who she's supposed to marry. So they believed me and trusted me. They had concerns before that, for sure, that they talked to me about. Like, my mom was like, is this what you really want? You know, and she's obviously saw my grandpa leaving my grandma and what it did to my grandma. And so it's not like we're Unaware of the consequences that she was very. After that, they never questioned it.

John Dehlin [00:47:46] And so he gets home. Josh, you struggle for a week.

Lolly Weed [00:47:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:51] And then you pop.

Josh Weed [00:47:52] I popped the. I was laying on. I was laying on my parents couch. We were laying together bad. Laying side by side on the couch. Inappropriate. And. Yeah. And I asked her right there in that moment.

Lolly Weed [00:48:06] And I of course, knew what my answer was. Right, you already knew.

Josh Weed [00:48:10] There was no hesitation.

John Dehlin [00:48:11] And Lolly, were you attracted to him?

Lolly Weed [00:48:15] It took a while. It was a process for me. Like, he was not my ideal guy.

Josh Weed [00:48:23] Especially at the time we fell in with love. I had gained a considerable amount of weight. I weighed almost 300 pounds.

John Dehlin [00:48:30] Towards the end of your mission?

Josh Weed [00:48:31] No, right before I left, when we fell in love, I was stress eating like a mother. I was like eating a lot. I gained like 60 pounds.

Lolly Weed [00:48:41] But that was when we really fell in love, was when he was like at his biggest weight and he was

Josh Weed [00:48:46] like, why do you even love me?

Lolly Weed [00:48:47] And I'm like, you're amazing. Like, I love the person that you are. And so. And I think there's something to be said about that. Like, when you really love a person, they become beautiful to you, you know, and he was, you know. Then I started to become attracted to him. But then I came home for his mission, he lost £100. And I was like, whoa. I totally scarred because he was. He looked different. I was already in love with him. So, yeah, I was attracted to him at that point, but it was a process.

John Dehlin [00:49:17] So he fell in love with his soul. Same with you.

Lolly Weed [00:49:21] Yeah. And so I think that's where. When he talks about attraction, I get where he's coming from. Because, I mean, obviously not. I mean, it's obviously different, but I can understand that feeling of falling in love with someone for who they are. And then the attraction comes because that's what happened.

John Dehlin [00:49:40] So instead of it being this attraction born out of carnal physical sensuality and eroticism or whatever, it's this falling in deep emotional, spiritual love and connection.

Josh Weed [00:49:53] Right.

John Dehlin [00:49:54] And then attraction. I imagine that's a different type of attraction.

Josh Weed [00:49:58] I would imagine so, yeah. Don't have much to compare it to, but I would think it is.

John Dehlin [00:50:04] Right, right.

Josh Weed [00:50:05] Well, I don't think it's that different from. From couples who. So couples who get through like the period, the infatuation period. This is all theoretical and I have no, like, data to back this up at all. But I think that couples who get through the infatuation period and have that juncture where they either, like, fall in Love with each other for real. Like in a different way or kind of split ways. I think it's similar to that, that secondary connection that is developed over time. Time. I think there is some similarity between what we have to that kind of connection, but I don't, I mean, I guess I'm not sure on that. It's just what I suspect. Okay.

Josh's Views on Same-Sex Attraction and Identity

John Dehlin [00:50:45] But before we jump in to talking about how you make the marriage work, I just want to, I want to talk briefly about Josh, your specifically your views on same sex attraction, homosexuality and Lolly. If there's anything you want to add in terms of your opinion, jump in. There are many stereotypes or theories about what causes or doesn't cause same sex attraction. So I just kind of want to go through a few on the list.

Josh Weed [00:51:10] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:51:11] And see if you have opinions about it for others and then for yourself.

Josh Weed [00:51:15] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:51:16] So the first natural one is biological. That there's some biological thing going on for yourself, for others. What's your view on that?

Josh Weed [00:51:25] Unknown. But I suspect, respect that.

Guest [00:51:27] Yes.

Josh Weed [00:51:28] In general.

John Dehlin [00:51:29] In general and for you specifically. So you're, you're, you feel like there's a decent probability that there's a biological component.

Josh Weed [00:51:37] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:51:38] Okay.

Josh Weed [00:51:39] That's my suspicion.

John Dehlin [00:51:40] And for you, was it a choice?

Josh Weed [00:51:42] Oh, I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:51:43] Not even.

Josh Weed [00:51:44] Not remotely.

John Dehlin [00:51:45] Okay. Some say it has something to do with your relationships with your parents. That, you know, overbearing mother, you know, absent father. For you.

Josh Weed [00:51:58] For me? No.

John Dehlin [00:52:00] I guess that would make you have to speak ill of your parents or.

Josh Weed [00:52:03] Right. No, which I would be fine doing. No worries on that front. But I have to qualify my answer for me, like, there is a lack of connection between my father and me that we both can verbalize and know is there, like we have a very good relationship as evidenced by our communication over the years. But, but we both feel something is missing. But chicken or egg? I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:52:35] And just so my audience understands a little bit what I think you mean by chicken and egg is, is your relationship missing something because your dad, you know, noticed in you from an early age that you were same sex attracted and that might have made him uncomfortable, a little bit standoffish.

Josh Weed [00:52:51] Right.

John Dehlin [00:52:51] Or did the same sex attraction develop because your dad was.

Josh Weed [00:52:56] And no way to know.

John Dehlin [00:52:57] No way to know. And that's what makes that theory any direction problematic.

Guest [00:53:03] Right?

John Dehlin [00:53:04] Yeah.

Josh Weed [00:53:05] Or. And it also could be, it could be not that he did not connect with me because I was gay. And also could be because I was gay, I did not connect to him with my own gender identity. Is also a possibility.

John Dehlin [00:53:21] It's a personal question answered if you feel comfortable. Some say it has to do with abuse or sexual exploration or porn or masturbation or I'll just use offensive terms, sexual deviance that that leads to it.

Josh Weed [00:53:36] Okay. I will systematically go through. I was not sexually abused or any abused in any other way. And those other things were not causal at all, though they did some of them factor into my development, which is

John Dehlin [00:53:53] kind of normal for.

Josh Weed [00:53:54] Kind of normal for most kids. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:59] Some people think of same sex attraction as an illness or disease or when they talk about it, they talk about it like it's some type of affliction that one needs to be cured from. How do you conceptualize it for you?

Josh Weed [00:54:14] That's a hard one. I honestly am not. Maybe I don't know exactly how I conceptualize it.

Lolly Weed [00:54:24] Yeah.

Josh Weed [00:54:24] I want you to jump in and

Lolly Weed [00:54:25] say,

Josh Weed [00:54:27] here's what I'm thinking and I thoughts are always intelligent development. Right. So I might change this over time. So but. And in terms of curability, like, no, I don't think that there is. I don't think that there is a way to change this circumstance. Whether or not I think it is. I do. I don't have the language because I want to say path mythology, but that's not the right word. I do view it as something different than what nature intended for a male of this species to experience in terms of sexuality. You know, like for me it does seem to be that way. And at the same time it has brought a lot of like, I think positive components to my life and I think even my personality and creativity and there's a lot that my life contains that I think is somewhat somehow correlated to the fact that I'm gay that I think I would be missing if that would not had not been the case. So I don't feel like I'm explaining myself very well at all.

John Dehlin [00:55:48] You're not comfortable with affliction or disease.

Josh Weed [00:55:51] Right.

John Dehlin [00:55:52] But you're not comfortable saying it's awesome. A. Okay.

Josh Weed [00:55:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:56] Normal the way it should be.

Josh Weed [00:55:57] Right.

John Dehlin [00:55:58] Some. Some who who just might believe in the theory of evolution would say that actually nature did design, you know, same sex attracted people into. Into our communities for perhaps very healthy reasons. Maybe they made good pastors, maybe they made good, you know, art artists, maybe. Maybe they were good caretakers. Is that, is that a possibility?

Josh Weed [00:56:22] I guess it's a possibility.

John Dehlin [00:56:23] My brain, natural in that way, not normal in the sense that it's the average experience, but natural.

Josh Weed [00:56:30] Where my brain goes with that is I don't think when we're talking on a purely biological level and I'm not a biologist, so I don't know what I'm talking about really. But I don't think when we're talking about purely biological level level biology is terribly concerned with someone being able to be a pastor or you know, or those kinds of issues and that, that biology tends to generally deal with propagation of the species. Species, which I think so I don't know. It's possible. You know, that is a distinct possibility.

John Dehlin [00:57:01] There are theories of social, social evolution that try and make the same.

Josh Weed [00:57:05] Maybe social evolution. Okay, yeah, that would make probably more sense.

John Dehlin [00:57:09] But you know, we're all, we're all speculating.

Josh Weed [00:57:12] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:13] So in some ways you do. Would you call it a gift? In some ways a blessing?

Josh Weed [00:57:18] Yeah, yeah, I guess. I mean, till I am right, like. And I don't know how to tease out the differences of what I would have been otherwise. No, you know, and so I, and I do love who I am as a human being and so. Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:57:37] That's great. So I think you've already answered this, but you've actually never tried dating a man or experiencing same sex love or affection?

Josh Weed [00:57:46] No.

John Dehlin [00:57:48] Pre mission it wasn't a possibility. You were married right after your mission, so you don't know for sure what that would be like.

Josh Weed [00:57:53] I don't. I have a pretty good idea. In the same way that someone who's. There are scenarios in which I think that. I think most people have a good idea of what being in love would feel like. I think our imagination capacity has that ability of taking one's. It's not experiential, but it is definitely. You have a pretty good conception of what it would be. But yeah, I don't have any, I don't have any experiential knowledge on that.

John Dehlin [00:58:24] Okay. Probably. Probably the biggest question that I've received for you has to do with the Kinsey scale. So for those who don't know, a sex researcher, Alfred Kinsey, designed a scale to describe people's sexuality. The scale, 0 to 6, 0 means exclusively other sex attracted. So heterosexual. 6 means exclusively same sex attracted or homosexual. 3 would be bisexual. I guess my first question is, do you, you know, how do you view the Kinsey scale? And do you believe that bisexuality exists? And what, what does bisexuality mean to you?

Josh Weed [00:59:04] Okay, wow. Going on record, here we go. I have doubts about both the Kinsey scale as well as, especially in males, bisexuality. I don't have any definitive anything as I Keep repeating. But, like. But my. But my gut is that I know for me, and this gets really complex. But, like. So, yeah, I think the. I think the Keersey scale definitely serves a purpose and helps give language to these ideas of, you know, of there being kind of a spectrum, possibility of spectrum and whatnot. And I think it's useful to have a way to language these things and to have universal terminology. But I don't think it's a perfect scaling system. And one of the things that I do not totally love about it is it does not really very well differentiate between sexual behaviors and sexual attractions because I view them as very different things. I mean, obviously my sexual behavior is like one totally different thing than my sexual attractions are. And so. So I don't think that it has.

John Dehlin [01:00:31] You're saying it's inadequate. It's inadequate.

Josh Weed [01:00:33] Yeah. Maybe it's. I guess maybe it's inadequate, but.

John Dehlin [01:00:36] Do you believe there are people who are attracted to both sexes?

Josh Weed [01:00:38] I think that that is possible. I have not met a lot of men who have legitimately told me, like, in terms of. And I'm talking about gut. Basic attraction, like two naked bodies, you know, and there's a naked guy and a naked girl, and they are like, equally able to get. I mean, I'm gonna get really specific, get an erection and have like a sexual experience with both of those stimuli equally. I don't know if I've. And I've. I don't know if I've encountered many people that can say that.

John Dehlin [01:01:12] That.

Josh Weed [01:01:12] That there's that equality.

John Dehlin [01:01:14] So for you, bisexuality is rare, I think.

Josh Weed [01:01:17] I suspect it's rare.

John Dehlin [01:01:18] Okay.

Josh Weed [01:01:19] In men. I've seen that. I've seen it more in women, for whatever that.

Lolly Weed [01:01:23] I think women's sexuality is a little more fluid, maybe, I think.

Josh Weed [01:01:26] And it's just different in a lot of ways, probably. But. But yeah. So in terms of me. In terms of me on the. On the Kinsey scale, I think that. Was I saying Kearsy before, I think you're. I don't know what I'm talking about. In terms of me on McKinsey scale, I have always self identified as like a. It makes people upset when I say this, but I. Especially pre marriage, I was totally a six. Like, I mean, there was a level of repulsion to the opposite sex, for sure, you know, And. And so in terms of, like, what I am sexually attracted to, like, visually or even other sensorily, like olfactory, you know, like, my basic sexual orientation is homosexual, like, all the way, you know, insofar as I can explain it and define it, that is what I would say. I've often wished that. And I hear that maybe there is this kind of mechanism. I wish that there was some kind of, like, test where I can have certain, you know, be monitored, and my response could be monitored, and there could be different stimuli, you know, thrust upon me, and they could measure how I'm responding so that I could just, like, definitively be like, see, the data says, you don't need to worry about it. Like, I know what I'm saying is true, you know, and so I haven't found such a test, but maybe it exists.

Intimacy, Attraction, and the Nature of Their Bond

John Dehlin [01:03:03] So in the Nightline interview, I remember the saying, are you attracted to women? And you're like, no. And then they ask, are you attracted to Lolly? You're like, yes. Is it? But, you know, some would say, how would you know?

Josh Weed [01:03:19] Like, how would I know?

John Dehlin [01:03:22] How would you know that you. I mean, some would say, by definition, you're bisexual because you're able to. And I can understand why this question might come out of ignorance, but how could you be sexual at all with Lolly if you weren't bisexual? Because that's what bisexuality is.

Josh Weed [01:03:38] Right. And that's where I say, that's why I think the Kinsey Scale is a little. It's not adequate, because sexual behavior and sexual attraction, I think, are two very distinct things.

John Dehlin [01:03:50] So you can be sexually active without being sexually attracted to someone.

Josh Weed [01:03:54] I think that sexual behavior can occur in many instances without. I mean, there's lots of different scenarios that kind of prove that that's a possibility, you know, and that that can and does happen. And so, yeah, that is the case, I think, anyway.

John Dehlin [01:04:16] And so what. What is it that includes your sexual attraction, your ability to be intimate with Lolly that precludes you from saying you also have an attraction to the opposite sex?

Josh Weed [01:04:30] I think it's in the very. It's in the fact that it is so lolly specific.

John Dehlin [01:04:37] So, you know, you're lolly sexual.

Josh Weed [01:04:39] I am lolly sexual. That's awesome. Yep. That is my future answer to this question.

John Dehlin [01:04:46] I coined that.

Guest [01:04:47] True.

Josh Weed [01:04:47] It was good work.

Lolly Weed [01:04:48] Yeah.

Josh Weed [01:04:48] It happened here.

John Dehlin [01:04:49] Right?

Guest [01:04:49] Right.

Lolly Weed [01:04:52] I like it.

Josh Weed [01:04:55] That's good. Good Valentine's Day word. Love it. Yeah. There. There's actually some truth to that. Like, it is. It is. It's just her. And it has to do with our relationship and years of knowing each other and being intimate with each other. And I am now. And there is an increase in our. In. In my attraction to her specifically. But Any other woman? No. And so it's like. And I'm almost like, sometimes I feel hesitant to talk about that in great depth because I feel like it gives fodder to proponents of change therapy who want to, like, say that sexual orientation is, in fact, is not immutable and is, in fact, changeable. And I'm like, I don't believe that. You know, that's not my experience. For whatever reason, there is some ability to, on a very individual basis, have some flexibility, at least in my experience. But in terms of actual sexual orientation,

Lolly Weed [01:06:03] I mean, you have said, like, if anything were to ever happen to. To me, you'd be done.

Guest [01:06:07] Right.

Lolly Weed [01:06:08] You know, I'm out.

Josh Weed [01:06:10] Like, really? I can't say that for sure. I guess if I got to that point, I would have to.

Lolly Weed [01:06:15] I don't know what I can say on a podcast, but I mean, you know, he'll say, like, you're the only vagina for me. Like, you know, I'm not going there with anybody else.

Josh Weed [01:06:25] Like, and that's my gut feeling. You know, obviously it happened once, so I suppose theoretically it could happen again, but. But I don't want it to.

John Dehlin [01:06:34] You think this is sort of a stars aligning kind of thing?

Josh Weed [01:06:37] I think it is in some ways, yeah. I think there's a lot to it, and I think that it is. I think the other. I think it can be duplicated, but I think it requires a lot of stars aligning to be duplicated. So I think it requires a lot of different factors being in place and the people involved being at a certain state of thought and development and, you

Lolly Weed [01:07:10] know, so there's a lot of communication, like. Yeah. And if you want to put. Say that's a star lining or whatever, if it's a personality, but, I mean, we're very committed to each other, and we're willing to. To be vulnerable and to communicate and to say things that might hurt to find the truth and to understand each other. And I. You know, I don't want to sound like we're all special or whatever, but I haven't seen a lot of people that have communicated with each other in the way that we have been able to. And so, I mean, I don't know if that's considered a star aligning, but I don't know of a lot of people that can communicate.

John Dehlin [01:07:56] Yeah, Part of that has to be the soulmate connection of your relationship from your childhood.

Josh Weed [01:08:01] Right. And the early vulnerability. So I was totally vulnerable with her when I was 16, you know, so

John Dehlin [01:08:09] what did that create for you both,

Lolly Weed [01:08:13] immense trust, sense of trust, and, like, were in this together. Like, I felt even at that time,

Josh Weed [01:08:20] before there was any romantic component, there was definitely a, like, we're gonna figure this stuff out. Yeah, the church and homosexuality, we're gonna figure this out.

Lolly Weed [01:08:30] And I was very committed to his happiness. Like, I wanted him to be happy. And, I mean, there were moments where he's trying to figure out what he wanted for his life, and I knew I was gonna support him no matter what he chose. So I think that that definitely played a big role in it. Just trusting each other and genuinely loving each other and wanting what was best for each other. And I feel like, genuinely, when we put each other's happiness above our own and listen to each other and would be willing to sacrifice anything or do anything, if he asked me to do anything, something, I would. I would do it. And I know if I said, hey, Josh, I need you to do this for me, or I need you to change this for me, he would do

Josh Weed [01:09:16] it, which is part of the trust of. I mean, it's part of the process. It's because, you know that there, they would never ask you to do something that. That didn't have your and their best interest in mind, you know, so it's just this kind of circular trust thing.

John Dehlin [01:09:37] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories Podcast and Gay Mormon Stories Podcast. To check out the video version of this episode, go to YouTube.com mormonstories to continue the conversation or to keep these podcasts alive through a financial contribution, please check us out@mormonstories.org and gaymormonstories.org and thanks for listening.

Guest [01:09:59] Come, come, ye saints. No toil nor labor fear but with joy wend your way Though heart to you this journey may appear Grace shall be as your day. Tis better far for us to strive Our useless cares from us to drive to the San Joel your hearts will swell. Oh, all is well, all is well.

Challenges and Realities of a Mixed-Orientation Marriage

Part 2 of 3 · Ep. 413

Guest [00:00:01] Come, come, ye saints. No toil nor labor fear, but with joy wend your way.

John Dehlin [00:00:16] This interview is a joint production of Mormon Stories Podcast and Gay Mormon Stories Podcast. To check out the video version of this episode, go to YouTube.com mormonstories to keep these podcasts alive, please consider a financial contribution today. MormonStories.org and GayMormonStories.org and thanks for listening. Lali how has it been difficult or has it sort of been a fairy tale being in a mixed orientation marriage?

Lolly Weed [00:00:47] You know, we've had some struggles and I think that it would be very unfair to say that it's all been like butterflies and rainbows, because that's not the case. But honestly, I don't know what marriage doesn't go through its challenges, but I mean, specifically to being involved in a mixed orientation marriage. We've definitely had some struggles, but nothing that was even remotely considering, like being a deal breaker. It was, when we came up to them, a challenge came. It was like, okay, let's get together, let's figure out how we're gonna get through this. And whenever we get through challenges, we always end up being stronger after it's all said and done, like, okay, that was a rough time. But it was never a him against me, or we were always united and trying to figure out, okay, well, this presents a unique situation to us. What are we gonna do about it? And I think that that comes to Josh, tells me everything. Like, he comes, he talks to me, you know, about any concern he has, anything, everything.

Josh Weed [00:02:02] Our community. Yeah, that is a, it's a very important component of our relationship is perpetual full disclosure always. And I think it's a crucial element of how our marriage functions.

Lolly Weed [00:02:17] And I think one thing that I have done is, I mean, since we did have all those years of just being friends, sometimes when he talks to me about issues that are hard for me to hear, I almost step back and I'm like, okay, I'm viewing this as your friend Lolly, not your wife Lolly. And we're gonna work through this together. And that helps me, like, to not get emotionally, like hurt unnecessarily by something, if that makes sense.

John Dehlin [00:02:49] Sure.

Guest [00:02:50] So

John Dehlin [00:02:53] what I know about mixed orientation marriages is that some of the difficulties have to do with, number one, making sex work and have it not be an unsatisfying experience for either of you. Second, is the same sex attracted partner sometimes being attracted to other people, sometimes being unfaithful in the marriage and that type of thing. Sometimes it's basic, you know, being deceptive and just getting along. So have you had to deal with any of that stuff?

Lolly Weed [00:03:31] I think that's important. Like, one, the sex issue has not been an issue for us. Like, it's not. We've maintained and always had a good intimate relationship, which I know is not the case. I mean, we've talked to a lot

Josh Weed [00:03:46] of people and so, yeah, we've talked to a lot of people, both straight and gay, you know, mixed orientation marriages and straight.

Lolly Weed [00:03:52] Straight, gay. So I mean, it's kind of a. You can find that problem in lots of different marriages, but that's not something that we've had a problem with.

Josh Weed [00:04:00] And I think.

John Dehlin [00:04:00] So sex has never been a real.

Josh Weed [00:04:02] No, it's not been a real issue.

John Dehlin [00:04:06] I think you said that you guys have a sex life that maybe is on par with or better than many of the straight couples, you know.

Josh Weed [00:04:13] Yeah, right.

John Dehlin [00:04:13] See, that's mind blowing to us straight people.

Josh Weed [00:04:15] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:04:16] Who like sex. We're like, what are you doing? How is this possible?

Lolly Weed [00:04:20] Well, if you could get our friends in here and interview them, they would say the same thing about us because they know it's true.

John Dehlin [00:04:27] Your friends know?

Lolly Weed [00:04:28] Oh, yeah. Well, we talk. You know, Friends talk.

John Dehlin [00:04:30] Yeah, sure, sure.

Josh Weed [00:04:32] And most of them didn't know about this intermarriage. So we would just talk about sexuality in general. But I think that there are a few things that helped us in that arena. And the main thing was that as we were very. We had very low anxiety as we engaged in the sexual component of our relationship. So we had very high levels of trust and we were able to have very low performance anxiety, for lack of a better term. You know, so it was like we were going to be okay with whatever happened. So the pressure was very much off. So there was. And I think I can imagine that what happens is that I could completely imagine there being kind of a spiral effect if. If there did. If there was this kind of feeling of pressure and then there was some mishap in the bedroom in the initial stages. And then that becomes like, okay, this is not working. You know, like, I think we have a problem. And then the problem kind of augments itself over time and becomes maybe bigger than it really actually is. And we avoided that completely. In fact, we. Yeah, I don't think we were a go from the beginning, you know, like, we did not have the. I don't know.

Lolly Weed [00:05:48] I think some of that does have to do with like the spouse, the heterosexual spouse. How are they viewing themselves? You know, because if you're going into it like, oh, he's not attracted to me. What's gonna happen? And I just kind of was like, we're gonna make this work, you know, like, you're gonna love this. And I had confidence in myself and that even if something. It doesn't work at the beginning, we'll make it. We'll make it work, you know, And.

Josh Weed [00:06:17] And that lack of pressure actually made it. So it did work from the beginning.

Lolly Weed [00:06:20] And so, yeah, I was.

Josh Weed [00:06:23] I mean, there's a. I think that there's like a learning curve in sexuality for everyone. So it gets better.

Lolly Weed [00:06:28] Doesn't everybody get better at it?

Josh Weed [00:06:29] You know, But.

Lolly Weed [00:06:32] But.

Josh Weed [00:06:32] And also intimacy. So David Schnarch, love his research. And reading his research in grad school was the first time I kind of understood maybe what was happening in my own marriage where I was like, oh, it's about connection, you know, like there is a component of sex when sex is done well in a. In an intimate relationship that is about the intimacy and the connection, maybe even more so than the physical bodies involved or whatever.

John Dehlin [00:07:08] So, you know, one question that people often ask is, does the same sex attracted partner have to visualize someone of the same sex during romantic moments to be able to be aroused, to be able to engage in that type of stuff? Is that. No, that's not what you have to do?

Josh Weed [00:07:31] For me, no. In fact, to the contrary, if there ever was a time where that happened, you know, accidentally kind of occurred, it was not. You know, it was like. It was like we would process. It was not. It felt very incongruent and not good. And so, no, that's really not. Hasn't been required, nor is it even. Like, males are very tactile. You know, there are ways.

John Dehlin [00:07:59] There is, I guess if you can stimulate yourself, right, Heterosexual or not, someone else could do the same.

Lolly Weed [00:08:08] I know that. I've heard other people say that, you know, they do have to.

Josh Weed [00:08:11] We've had friends that like, literally could not perform in that way unless they were picturing someone else, someone of the same gender, you know, so I see why that concern would be raised. But for us, for whatever reason, that has not been the case.

John Dehlin [00:08:27] And Lolli, the stereotypical concern for someone in your shoes vicariously is that, you know, a woman wants to be loved. She wants to be ravished. She wants the man to think she's, you know, something, you know, really sensual, and she wants to feel adored and like she's beautiful. And having a man who isn't naturally attracted to you or to your gender could. Could cause you to have issues of self esteem and could cause you to not be fulfilled. You know, something that's just completely overlooked in Mormon discourse and probably American discourse is female sexuality and how important sexuality is to women, not just men. And people would say, oh, it's too bad for Loli, you know, she has to sort of get the scraps and be with the man who's not really attracted to her and not be with someone who thinks she's hot, you know?

Lolly Weed [00:09:27] Yeah, well, when I hear that, it actually kind of makes me mad because it's like saying that I don't have any self esteem and that I kind of settled, like, well, I guess I'm not going to get anybody, so I'll settle for Josh. And I'm like, what? That is so not the case. You know, it was not. I remember having conversations with my roommates at one point and all of them were worried that they wouldn't get married. And I was the only one that was like, of course I'm going to get married. I don't know why you're worried. I never thought I was settling because I didn't think I'd find anybody else. I was just never anything. I've always had really good self esteem and I don't, you know where that came from. I don't know. My parents did a great job of telling me that I was wonderful and that I was worth it and that. And I didn't have. I don't know, I think I was just really blessed. And so that is not an issue. And in terms of like, wanting to feel you know, hot and beautiful. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:25] Sexually desired and being sexually fulfilled.

Lolly Weed [00:10:28] Yes. Which of course, that was my, that was my main concern in Mary and Josh was like, I wanted to be sexually fulfilled. I think it's important. I think it's part of the plan of happiness. I really do. Like, we are meant to be sexually fulfilled. There's purpose for that. And so I went into this thinking, okay, we're gonna make that. It's gonna happen for me. And I think a lot of that does come from how I'm viewing it. Because, you know, with women, sexuality is so much in their head, you know what I mean? Forming, you're having thoughts. And that's where the attraction, that's where a lot of the fulfillment is coming from, is from what's happening in your head. And so I just watch what I'm telling myself. And there's something incredibly amazing to the fact of what Josh said earlier where he says that I'm the only woman that he'd ever want to have sex with. I mean, what woman wouldn't want to hear that from their spouse? Like, I wouldn't even want that. And so I'm looking at the positives and. And I'm not sitting there worrying about, oh, he'd rather be with. With someone else. Because honestly, anybody could do that. Like, you know, I've got friends who. They find out that their husbands are, like, really deep into pornography. And they're there thinking, my husband doesn't want me. He doesn't want this body. He wants those supermodels. He wants those girls he's looking at on the Internet. And then they find themselves in that. Like, I'm not worthy. I'm not good enough. This isn't who he wants. And I just think women in general, we can't go there. Like, we are who we are. We need to be proud of them. We can't sit there and worry about thinking, oh, I'm not his ideal, because I am his ideal.

Josh Weed [00:12:25] Totally.

Lolly Weed [00:12:25] He wouldn't have chosen me if I wasn't the package that he wanted. And I think, honestly, if we are all being really true to ourselves, who married their ideal in every way, physically, even? I don't think anybody has.

Josh Weed [00:12:44] I'm sure somebody has.

Lolly Weed [00:12:45] Well, I'm sure. Okay, so maybe someone married, you know, stuff. Amazing. Super.

Josh Weed [00:12:49] But even then, there would be more.

John Dehlin [00:12:52] There's emotional, there's spiritual, there's personality, there's compatibility.

Lolly Weed [00:12:56] Yeah. And even. And even talking strictly physical.

Josh Weed [00:13:00] Right.

Lolly Weed [00:13:00] I think the majority of people kind of settled, but it's not settling.

Josh Weed [00:13:08] That's the whole point is, like, you get a package. You get human being, you know, like a. A holistic person, you know, and breaking it down to these parts and examining and juxtaposing certain components is going to lead to disappointment.

Lolly Weed [00:13:28] I mean, you are.

Josh Weed [00:13:29] You are choosing a person.

Lolly Weed [00:13:31] You are not your sexual orientation at all. That is not who Josh is.

Josh Weed [00:13:35] Right.

Lolly Weed [00:13:37] And so I'm not going to be focusing on that while we're being intimate.

Josh Weed [00:13:41] Right.

John Dehlin [00:13:42] You know, and so for those who worry about your fulfillment, you would say.

Lolly Weed [00:13:46] I say it's. I appreciate the concern, everyone, but I am very fulfilled. And I think that maybe if they're so concerned about my fulfillment, I would wonder why. Why are they so concerned about that?

John Dehlin [00:14:01] Well, maybe they care about you or they just.

Lolly Weed [00:14:03] And so that's why they know loved ones who might have sacrificed and see, that's it. Because they may have seen. Seeing someone in a situation where they're not being fulfilled, that's painful. And that is a hard place to be because I think it's a really important part of marriage. And so when people ask me about this, I've had women write to me and talk to me and say, I'm considering entering into a marriage like yours. And they would tell me the specifics, and I would always tell them, intimacy is a huge part of it. So. So you've got to be aware of that, and you've got to talk about that, and you have to know where you're at and what's going to happen for you. So I really do feel bad for people that aren't feeling fulfilled. So it's a legitimate concern.

Going Public and the Community Response

John Dehlin [00:14:56] Okay, so onto probably the most explosive part of your story, that you guys are more aware of the reactions than anybody else. You know, as I'm sitting here listening to you guys, I'm like, I'm believing it. I'm happy. Like, I'm like, I love this couple. Like, they're happy, and we need happy marriages, and they're making it work. Bless them. Like, I'm, like, loving it, right? I'm so happy. You know, as a therapist, there are hard marriages everywhere. Here's a couple that's happy. I don't think anybody who's reasonable doesn't wish you guys the absolute best. Right? But, you know, the obvious reaction to what you guys have done by coming out is, on the one hand, it's an act of authenticity. It's like, hey, we exist. We exist. And I've read your original blog post, and I believed from the very beginning that you were very responsible in saying, this works for us, but we're not holding ourselves up as a role model for anybody. So that was from the beginning. So you obviously thought about that, right? And yet, I mean, as I'm sitting here watching you, there's a part of me that goes, oh, well, this is totally doable. This is completely doable. If I've got a gay son, and I have a son, no idea. If he's gay, he's 8 years old. If he's gay, we'll just find him a SoulMate when he's 16, get them to really connect and be close, have them live the gospel and pray and listen to the Lord. He'll go on a mission, he'll come home, she'll fall in love with him, they'll get married, they'll communicate really well. You know, they'll not bring any anxiety to the marriage. And so they'll be able to be intimate in every way, and they'll have this sweet, tender relationship, just like you. And that's what, as I've heard, thousands of parents of gay and lesbian Mormons across the country have done with your story. They've sent the story to their gay or lesbian child and said, look, they're doing it. You guys need to try harder. Try harder. And did you anticipate that that would happen? And then what has been your. How have you experienced the response?

Josh Weed [00:17:36] So, first of all, even as you were describing that scenario with your child, my anxiety was raising like it is. Life is not formulaic in that way, period. You know, yes, we have templates and we have things that we can look at, but that's just not how life works. But anyway, so our intentions and posting a blog post on my. Then, like, I had like 300 subscribers. A humor blog of the most ridiculous, you know, like, just like satirical, totally dumb posts that I found funny, you know, and our intention at that time was very microcosmic and very. Just like, we felt like we needed to be public. And when I say public, I mean our public. Public within our sphere. Like, we needed to out ourselves and start talking about this in a real way. And we had had very. We had had 10 years where that was not the case, where we felt very clearly that we should be very private. And I did some. We did some writing anonymously and had. And attracted some attention at times. And we were very much like, meh. You know, like, anytime that even started to happen, it did not feel right at all. But then, yeah, it was last. It's about a year ago now, that we started to really feel that, number one, it was important for me to be authentic and to not be ashamed of this circumstance in my life. And that we just. We just felt like it was. I don't know how to put it into words.

Lolly Weed [00:19:24] There was a lot of things, because a lot of people ask this question, like, why?

Josh Weed [00:19:28] And we have several answers come out,

Lolly Weed [00:19:29] you know, and it depends on which audience we're talking to. Because there were multiple things we were thinking, thinking when we did it. One was, yeah, that Josh wanted to be authentic. Two was that this was gonna come out somehow eventually, because he was starting to tell. We were starting to tell more people.

Josh Weed [00:19:48] And I had just started. I had just decided after a long kind of. In my own therapy, I had just started my private practice and hadn't. I have not been practicing for very long. And I had just come to the conclusion after a lengthy kind of deliberation, that I was like, I think I do. I would like to Perhaps work with the population of people who are gay and trying to reconcile that with their religion. And as I do that, I want. That I would like to be. I would like to disclose where I'm coming from so that they know who they are talking to. To. So that my clients felt. Would feel empowered to know what. What they are paying for in therapy with me. And so that was like, we didn't want it to. We didn't want. I don't want to tell a client and then have a client, you know, tell a good friend that we've known for, like, seven years and have people find out in these weird, circuitous ways that, you know, this very important part of our lives.

Guest [00:20:50] Yeah.

Josh Weed [00:20:51] And so that was a consideration.

Lolly Weed [00:20:53] We started thinking, and then when we really started contemplating, what is this going to mean for us once our family and all of our friends and everyone knows, you know, it starts to get scary. And like, well, what are people in the ward going to think? And it got to the point I was like, why should this even be happening? Why should we be concerned about what people are thinking of you? Why shouldn't you be able to talk about this more openly? And this is the problem. So I started to realize that there's. There's not enough people talking about this. We shouldn't be scared to talk about this issue. And the more we started thinking about it, the more we thought, okay, you can just be honest about this. Let's just. Instead of being like, well, how are we gonna tell our people?

Josh Weed [00:21:36] So we contacted the people we knew, sources we knew at the time, and we're like, is there anything happening? We heard about Kendall Wilcox's thing and contacted him, but that didn't happen. You know, we were like, I guess that might not be. You know, we were just trying to find, like, how are we even gonna do this? And then finally, we were just like,

Lolly Weed [00:21:53] we'll just post it on your blog.

Josh Weed [00:21:55] Post it on the blog, you know, and just throw it out there. And then all. Everyone we know, everyone in our stake and everyone on our, like, all our Facebook friends will be able to read our words and not hear it from the rumor mill, but be able to read what we are saying and know where we're coming from.

John Dehlin [00:22:13] And so did you have a sense that it would become sort of a national story?

Josh Weed [00:22:17] Not in the slightest. Like, zero.

John Dehlin [00:22:21] Because you're not the only mixed orientation.

Josh Weed [00:22:24] We've known various. And so, yeah, our good friends had been kind of on the news before, and he was always. He was open. They have since Divorced, but, you know, so we had seen mixed orientations, kind of marriages, kind of be more public, and we had no sense. We thought it was kind of a passe story. Like, you know, here we go.

Guest [00:22:45] Ooh,

Josh Weed [00:22:48] a gay man is married to a woman.

Guest [00:22:50] Wow.

Lolly Weed [00:22:51] You know, like, I think we still find ourselves being like, why do people care so much about us?

Josh Weed [00:22:56] Like, even after the initial months, you know, because it. So we published it, and then it went, like, super major viral. And

Lolly Weed [00:23:06] within, like, the next day after

Josh Weed [00:23:07] posting that night, I mean, we were getting. We posted it, went to a show and came home, and it was already just, like, proliferating, and it was unreal. We woke up the next morning, and it was just like we were in a different world. And we're still in now. We are currently in that different world, like, in this moment. I mean, it was just unreal.

Lolly Weed [00:23:30] I mean, to go back to this, did we think people were going to use our story in the way that they have? Like, no, we didn't think that. And it actually makes me. I have sat awake trying to figure out ways to stop that from happening because I feel a responsibility, like.

Josh Weed [00:23:47] And obviously, we had a sense of that possibility because we talk about it on a very smaller. In much smaller scale, like, within our community. We were like, listen, this is not being, you know, like, we. But, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:01] What were you gonna say, Lolly?

Josh Weed [00:24:02] Sorry. I interrupt constantly. Continue to, like, interrupt me as I do that.

Lolly Weed [00:24:06] We interrupt each other. So we have a lot to say. You know, I do think it's important to get this voice out there that we are not saying that this is right for everyone. And in fact, when I contemplate the idea of saying, my daughter coming to me and saying, I'm marrying someone that's gay, I would be very concerned. I would be. You know, just there were things I would want to know. There were questions I'd want to ask. I'd want to know what. What their expectations were, how they. You know, what were they thinking was going to happen, how their communication was. And so to put that kind of pressure on someone, to expect that everyone could achieve what we have is totally unfair and unreasonable, unrealistic at all, and

Josh Weed [00:24:57] does not account for the fact that people are living their own lives, everyone is living their own journey, and it will. Look, they're all so going to be so different. And there's no. Like, it pains me because I've heard people ask things like. I don't even know how to phrase it, but things like, I think Kendall Wilcox, to mention him Again, asked the question, do you feel like you're like, better than, or living the gospel, better or more righteous than me or other people? And that thought, just like it pains my soul to think that someone might think that there is no. We do not as human beings have the capacity to look at two different lives and evaluate what is happening there. You know, like we are seeing snapshots of each other essentially in a moment of time. We, we don't have the comprehension of history, nor futuricity, I'm making up a word. But you know, like, we do not have the ability to look at someone's life and evaluate that life in any way, really. We are commanded not to judge each other. And there's a reason for that. It's because we can't. We have no ability to do that, nor should we. And to think that someone might worry about worth or themselves as they look at another story or at my story or our story is very, very troubling and makes me sad. It makes me.

Lolly Weed [00:26:44] And I think that that just is a reflection on Mormonism as a whole. And I think we do this so much and it's bad. We look at each other and we see what we want to see and we make ideals and we create realities that aren't even real. And we start trying to fit each other and ourselves into boxes when it's not healthy and it's not good. And so I see people doing that. And I think the thing that's been most frustrating is when we posted this post, the thing, the main message we were trying to get at is, you know what, if you know someone that's gay, love them no matter what. Don't try and force anything on them.

Josh Weed [00:27:30] Accept them for who they are and what they're doing and accept that you don't understand or what their life has been like and that they are doing what feels right to them and they are doing the best they can. And that if they are gay and in the church, they've probably gone through some hard things and some hard moments and love them no matter what. Love them. Not just like, say the words I love you, but like actively love, embrace, accept them.

Lolly Weed [00:28:07] And especially parents, I just, you know, they have permission to love their child no matter what, no matter what life path they choose.

John Dehlin [00:28:19] Like if they leave the church, if

Josh Weed [00:28:21] they partner with another same sex person, embrace them, child.

Lolly Weed [00:28:28] Like your duty is to love them and make them feel worthwhile no matter what they choose. And like that is the message I would love to get out there like one homosexuality is real. Two, people don't choose that. And three, no matter what choices are made, we should be loving everyone. And so when other things come in, it's kind of sad to us because

Josh Weed [00:28:52] we're like, so antithetical to the message that we would like to get across. And, and. But people, I mean, it's like you were describing, like, even, even as you hear the story, even you, you were saying, even I, like, kind of feel this thing. And so it's like, I think this normal human tendency to be like, you know, like, well, my close friend is gay and I just saw this amazing story and, you know, to send it. But then I will talk to people, people who are like, yeah, when you came out, I got that story like 12 times from 12 different people, you know, and it's someone who's partnered and maybe has a kid. You know what I mean? Like, living a very different, totally content in their life, like, not needing to have our story kind of like thrust upon them a multiplicity of times. And, you know, so just, I guess it was natural byproduct of the public nature of what ended up happening. But it is an unfortunate one for sure and one that we have hopefully. I think that we've had some good moments. Probably for me, the best moment in terms of mitigating that was circling the wagons, one of the circling the wagons conferences. I was able to speak and just really just like, say, say it. Say, say that we're sorry for any pain that it's caused and that we love you, you know, 100% and mean it. And so that was a good moment to be able to do that.

John Dehlin [00:30:33] It was a beautiful speech. And for our listeners, circlingwagons.org is the website where you can hear not only Josh's presentation, but many other really good presentations from many different sides trying to explore this issue and find a way to love and support everybody. So I want to. So I appreciate you making that statement very clearly that you don't want to be a role model. Let's explore how, how you look at it in terms of risk. So do you have a sense. I have a sense for my data, our data. But do you have a sense for the divorce rates in mixed orientation marriages?

Weighing the Risks of Mixed-Orientation Marriages

Josh Weed [00:31:17] Yes and no.

John Dehlin [00:31:19] Okay.

Josh Weed [00:31:20] I think that the day. I think that. I think it's good we have some data. I'm really glad that you have data. Like, awesome. Like there's data happening now and this is a good thing. I think that the us's of the world, most of the us's of the world are still completely taciturn and secreted and hiding. And so the data is not going to be able to reflect completely accurately the statistics of success rates and whatnot. And so, I mean, from our point

Lolly Weed [00:31:53] of view, having come out, we got lots of, we received lots of emails, lots of communication from people saying, we're in your same situation, don't tell a soul.

Josh Weed [00:32:04] We're not telling a soul, but we're doing good and we're happy. And you, you know, thanks for kind of representing this segment of the population. A surprising number though. Not like, yeah, you know, not huge number, but I was surprised by dozens or hundreds more than, maybe not hundreds, not hundreds, but more than dozens. Okay.

Lolly Weed [00:32:25] But at the same time, my best friend growing up, the one I was with when we met Josh for the first time, married a man that was gay and they're divorced. You know, we have seen a lot of mixed orientation marriages, divorce and in divorce as well. So, you know, I wouldn't know what the statistics are.

John Dehlin [00:32:47] So here I am answering, here I am. What's that?

Josh Weed [00:32:50] It is high risk.

John Dehlin [00:32:51] So here I am answering my own question a little bit. But from the research I've done, and these are always estimates, population estimates, and I'm not just talking about our survey data, but just general studies, I've seen the number put at anywhere between kind of 60 to 75%. So kind of up to a 3/4 chance of it failing sort of from the start. Our data show that, that 30% of our 1600 that reported to be same sex attracted and Mormon, 30% of our sample reported entering into a mixed orientation marriage. And that at the time of the survey, 57%, 57, 58% had already been divorced. And that's at a mean average of about, let's just say 13 years, reportedly. So when divorce happens, it happens. It looks like around 13 to 15 years into the marriage. But that's just the mean for our current sample. We know that sometimes things can come in waves and especially once the kids are gone. Some people that are hanging on could then let go at that point. So I don't think it's unreasonable to think that with our sample, which again is not a random sample, but it's the most representative and largest sample I've ever seen. Not just within Mormonism, but probably outside of Mormonism, it's looking like it's going to be anywhere between 60 and 75%. So that's, you know, when you look at the fact that first marriages, you know, there's this common perception that half of all marriages end in divorce. That's not quite true. What we find is that about 40% of first marriages end in divorce, but about 60 survive. It's those divorces that lead to second, third, and fourth divorces that bring the average down. So if you're looking at a first marriage, you're looking at about a 60% success rate. And it's look. And it's looking like if you're in a mixed orientation marriage, that's like a 25% success rate potentially, or 75% failure rate. Risky.

Lolly Weed [00:35:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:04] Do you guys say that?

Josh Weed [00:35:06] Absolutely. It is risky.

John Dehlin [00:35:09] Very risky. Like, alarmingly risky. Like, the question that I formulated. I'm sorry, I'm going on here. If the surgeon general was going to issue. Put a label on mixed orientation marriage, would it be a big red label saying, warning, mixed orientation marriages can be hazardous to your health?

Josh Weed [00:35:26] I think so.

Lolly Weed [00:35:27] I do. I do think so.

Josh Weed [00:35:29] I do think so.

Lolly Weed [00:35:31] Yeah. That would be fair to say.

Josh Weed [00:35:34] Right? I do have some thoughts, though.

John Dehlin [00:35:35] Yeah, please.

Josh Weed [00:35:37] So, but.

John Dehlin [00:35:37] But you do say beware. Okay.

Josh Weed [00:35:42] Like, and I think that ties into the thoughts that I'm having. Okay. Is the. The numbers that we're looking at are marriages often entered into with wildly inappropriate expectations of what a mixed orientation should and can become or look like or what sexuality can do. You know, so these are marriages where it's coming from kind of that stance that I even. I was within, like, in the early 90s, where it's like, and if you get married, you're gonna be okay, and then everything will turn out fine. And so these. So people are entering into these unions with an expectation that in some cases, and probably many cases, that the homosexual component of that marriage will, over time, either diminish or disappear entirely. And when that doesn't happen, that's got to be very painful. And that's going to affect things. And so, so.

Lolly Weed [00:36:45] And you. Well, sorry.

Josh Weed [00:36:47] Oh, you. I was just gonna say so 100%, I would say marriage is under those pretenses. Do not do it. Like, it is not a panacea to homosexuality, and it is not really gonna change, you know, your homosexuality at all. Like you. It is not. Marriage is not a solution to a problem. Marriage is something different than that completely and totally. And so, yeah, I think that. I think that that's something that maybe would be wise to take into account as we're looking at those numbers. You know, that that is, in fact, as I look at that, I'm like, how are 25% of those marriages surviving? You Know, like, how is that even happening? And maybe they're not, because it's a, again, moment in time, and there's still probably many, many years for those marriages to live. And perhaps then will, in fact, end a divorce eventually.

Lolly Weed [00:37:47] But

Josh Weed [00:37:49] so, gosh, I don't know.

Lolly Weed [00:37:52] I think too, with time, like, I mean, in the church and in society, we've come a long way. I mean, obviously not far enough. But I feel like, you know, 50 years ago, there were, and even now, mixed orientation marriages. You find a lot of them where this. The spouse that was homosexual didn't even tell their spouse that they were gay. And that has got to be a huge factor in it, too, in people feeling that they can't even explore themselves, who they are. They can't accept that society in general wasn't accepting of it. And so they feel like, I have no other choice but to get married. And so, I mean, I don't know what the age of, you know, the sample you're looking at, but I'm sure that affects it too. And even young couples that we've seen, they've gotten married and one of the spouse, the spouse that was straight had no idea.

Josh Weed [00:38:52] I don't know who you're talking about,

Lolly Weed [00:38:53] but no, I'm just. I could think of a lot of different people.

John Dehlin [00:38:57] If they don't talk about it beforehand, that can lead to trust issues that can make you feel like the marriage was built on a false foundation.

Josh Weed [00:39:07] So a lot of people are finding themselves in a situation where they unwittingly have entered into that circumstances and their circumstance, and they're trying to figure out, like, what do we rebuild our relationship? Do we kind of call it quits and move forward in other ways? And, you know, it's complex and very

John Dehlin [00:39:22] messy, and yet what people could say is, okay, well, as long as you have the right expectations, then you'll be okay.

Josh Weed [00:39:30] But you're not saying that it's like it's this delicate balance, because on the one hand I'm like, you know what? There's so much involved and so much risk involved that it's like.

Lolly Weed [00:39:39] And you could never expect what's gonna happen to you anyway.

Josh Weed [00:39:43] But at the same time, people are entering. I think one of the things that we feel is like, these marriages are happening, you know, like, people are doing it for whatever reason. And I think that. I think there might be some value in educating those people that have made that choice. And, I mean, it's all about choice, right? Every single person is making a choice with what they're doing. And I think it's of value to educate people in whatever choice that they're making, even if it is this choice. And part of that education is exactly what you're saying. Look at this data. You know, like, take it seriously. Like, this is a genuine statistical analysis. And it's not. You can't. Numbers are not lying to you.

John Dehlin [00:40:29] So you guys could look at the person in the eyes and say, danger, Be careful. Caution.

Josh Weed [00:40:35] Yeah. We would look at our own children and say that. Would we say, never, never do this? No, because this is happening. You know, this is working for us and free will and let's respect everybody's decision making. And also there is some small, maybe infinitesimally minute possibility that it might be the right thing for them. That person. Who knows? But absolutely, like Lolly said, if our child was considering a mixed orientation marriage, we would not be like, cool. You know, like, we would be really, really concerned. And much like her parents, very like helping them to explore kind of what they're doing and talking it through and talking through numbers and talking through what it means, but then ultimately still allowing them to make the choice that feels right to them.

John Dehlin [00:41:29] So I have a quote from a friend who was in a mixed orientation marriage and it didn't work out. And she wrote, I'd love to know what they would say to someone like me. Did I just not have enough faith? Am I not as good a person as Laurel? How do they explain the overwhelming failure rate of mixed orientation marriages? And do they think that anything they could teach people would help? Is it just that most people are sex obsessed and selfish or are they just lucky? And what would you say to this person who comes to you, Laurel, and says, I really did try and we really did communicate and we really loved each other and heavenly father told me to do it and it's failed.

Lolly Weed [00:42:15] Yeah. You know, I would definitely say I would never think that. What was it that she said? Am I just not as righteous that I would never think that? Like, we have a really, really good friend that they have divorced. And I mean, she's an amazing individual who I know gave it her all. And I don't think she was deceived when she went into marrying him. I think that I don't think she regrets necessarily the decision. So. And that's hard. I would never think that we are more righteous. And that's why we're making it work.

Josh Weed [00:42:58] So lucky in some ways, yeah, I would.

Lolly Weed [00:43:03] Yeah, I definitely blessed perhaps, you know, lucky bless.

John Dehlin [00:43:09] That's tricky because then they'd say, why didn't God bless them?

Josh Weed [00:43:11] Totally. This is where it's like, I was

Lolly Weed [00:43:14] thinking of a friend that is struggling right now because she was abused as a child. You know what I mean? And so when she hears things, she's like, well, what. Am I not as loved by God, you know, to have been given a childhood where I wasn't abused? You know? And so when I say. I don't want to say we're blessed, because then it does make it seem like other people aren't as blessed. Yeah. And that. I don't think that's the case. And I don't. I don't understand sometimes, like,

Josh Weed [00:43:45] I don't know.

Lolly Weed [00:43:46] This is.

Josh Weed [00:43:47] This is very interesting. It's a very good question. Because at the. I think it. Because I do feel like we were. I don't. When I say that I. I do not like the tendency that we all have to compare life journeys, you know, but we have to, because we're living our lives. Right. But, like, when I say we were blessed, what I mean is we, within the context of our story, independent of any other story, completely having everything to do with our relationship, personal to God and not looking not. It's like every single journey is its own entity, and there are avenues in which I have been blessed and avenues in which I have not been as blessed. And you cannot compare two lives. It's like, this is just. That's one of the things that I most strongly feel like, you know, I have a blind eye, and most people have two eyes, you know, And I'm like, I would look at someone with two eyes and be like, you were blessed with two eyes. And I, you know, and I don't know if this comparison is even gonna work. And so forgive me if it doesn't. If we get to the end. Well, if you feel rejected. But, like. But I guess I don't know.

Lolly Weed [00:45:17] When I think about your friend who wrote that quote, and I think about my friend, and I think that I can look at her and say, you know what? I know that God loves you as much as he loves me.

Josh Weed [00:45:28] Right. And that you. You. You. She's probably amazing, and she probably gave her all. And, like, her situation makes me, you know, like, I'm actually even getting emotional thinking about her sitting. Writing that question. She's probably awesome. And I.

Lolly Weed [00:45:48] And maybe she's still.

Josh Weed [00:45:49] And I think she's, you know, and, like, I would not. Our story does not reduce her awesomeness in her situation at all. We're just living our life over here. Doing our thing, you know, and, like. And her amazingness as a human being is not informed in any way by what this thing that we're in is at all. Like, period.

Lolly Weed [00:46:17] Yeah. I mean, I think about my best friend who's divorced now from her gay ex husband. I love them both a lot, and they are still really good friends, you know, And I think that that's just. It is. It's just life circumstances. And I. They are good people. And for whatever reason, we just. We don't know why it doesn't work out.

Josh Weed [00:46:44] This is why comparison doesn't work. I look at my parents, and my dad is. My mom got early onset Alzheimer's. She contracted it in her late 40s, and she is 57, and she is losing her ability to do anything. And she. It is one of the most devastating things to watch. I mean, ever. Like, it is torture to watch. They have plans to go on missions. He's not even retired yet from ces. He still has, like, two years, but he's having to worry about, like, caring for her and whatnot. And somebody looking at lives in a community comparative way could be like, wow, what did you do wrong? You know, like. And it's just. I don't doubt the love that God has for my parents at all. Life is just messy and hard and things happen. And we're all doing the best we can. We're all trying the best we can to live the lives that we need to live. And hard things happen and good things happen, and we take the good and cherish it, and we try and work through the hard. And we're just all trying to support each other in this journey. And that's what it all comes down to. And that's why love is so important. That's why we have to just look at each other and not judge each other and just love each other truly, deeply, actively, and without judgment. Love each other and support each other in this journey.

Lolly Weed [00:48:23] And when you're saying not judge, I mean, I. Talking about your friend that wrote that comment. Like, no one has the right to judge her. No one has the right to judge her ex husband. That's what it is. And sometimes I think people think we're too like, Peter Priesthood Molly Mormon Sunshine. Yeah, because we say we just need to love, right? But we're being real here. And this is not even, like, just love them in a fake way. Like, I'll say hi to them at church and. And be civil. Like, we're saying, like, care about them, find out about their lives. What do they need be their friend, like love them in a genuine way. Be accepting, don't judge other people.

Josh Weed [00:49:00] Like, I wish there was a better word.

John Dehlin [00:49:02] Yeah.

Josh Weed [00:49:03] It's so like, it just doesn't. It's not adequate.

Lolly Weed [00:49:06] So I do, I feel bad for marriages that, you know, mixed orientations. And I, no doubt they went through a ton of pain and are still, you know, going through a lot of pain. And so that is, that's where we're saying, yeah, put that label on mixed orientation marriage. Be careful because it's not. There's a lot of risk and families are torn apart.

Josh Weed [00:49:30] Her grandma is still alive, you know.

Lolly Weed [00:49:32] Yeah.

Josh Weed [00:49:32] And has been alone for.

Lolly Weed [00:49:35] My grandma died of AIDS and was never a part of my life. You know. It is very risky and I see. And I love my grandma. Like I have a lot of respect for her and. And I don't think. Yeah, I don't think you could put blame and point fingers and.

Josh Weed [00:49:58] Right.

John Dehlin [00:50:05] So I have a. I have a few sort of. I have a few sort of almost. You guys have done great so far. I really appreciate it. I have a few kind of almost. I want to say political questions now that really don't have to do with your story. There's just a lot of people that want to know your positions on certain types of things. So answer what you're comfortable answering and if you want to say, no comment.

Views on Same-Sex Marriage and Church Policy

Lolly Weed [00:50:28] We've talked a lot about this amongst ourselves.

Josh Weed [00:50:32] Be open because we have a difference.

Lolly Weed [00:50:35] We have different feelings about it.

John Dehlin [00:50:37] Whether you should be open, let alone whether you agree on certain issues.

Josh Weed [00:50:41] We happen to agree.

Lolly Weed [00:50:42] We agree together to have the same opinion on the actual issue. It's just. I feel like

Josh Weed [00:50:50] we're jumping the gun here.

John Dehlin [00:50:52] Alright, so what would you say? Would you say that you support gay people or lesbian people who choose to enter into same sex relationships? Do you support that choice?

Josh Weed [00:51:05] Yes.

Lolly Weed [00:51:07] I want people to find their truth and their own happiness.

Josh Weed [00:51:11] That's not hard to answer at all.

Lolly Weed [00:51:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:14] Do you view that as a sin

Josh Weed [00:51:15] to support their choice to be in

John Dehlin [00:51:18] a same sex relationship?

Josh Weed [00:51:20] I. This is. Okay, this is once again where we get to not comparing. Right. I am not going to look at another person's life and say what you are doing is a sin. Like I am totally assessing your life circumstances right now and you're messing it up. Stop that. No, no. Like I am able to judge my own circumstances and obviously I made a different choice than that. Draw whatever conclusion from that that you wish. But I will never look at someone and call them a sinner. For the choices that they're making in that regard, I don't think that's appropriate at all.

John Dehlin [00:51:59] Does that lead to any concern about what you're taught? You know, being lds, you're taught that it is a sin. So do you have to reconcile that or is that something you just suspend?

Josh Weed [00:52:09] I have to reconcile, reconcile that within myself and for my own life journey. I don't have to reconcile that for anybody else's life journey.

John Dehlin [00:52:17] Do you say Heavenly Father, why are you calling that a sin?

Josh Weed [00:52:22] No, no, I don't say that.

Lolly Weed [00:52:27] I think that your relationship with God is very personal. And I think, I truly believe that when you have a connection with God and you take that to him and you are really wanting to do his will, he'll tell you what his will is.

Josh Weed [00:52:46] And I think it's different for different people.

Lolly Weed [00:52:49] And guess what? It's not going to be me and Jesus Christ up there judging the gay population. It's not. So I don't even have to worry about it. My role is, hey, you're a great person. Yeah, let's be friends, you know, and for me, yeah, for me, I want to feel peace with my relationship with God. And that's what I'm concerned about is what I consider to be aligning myself with God. And I feel like that is actually very in line with the church. Like you're looking at it bare bones. Church is all about agency. Church is all about personal revelation. Church is all about loving people, people unconditionally. I think the culture is getting confused about things, but when I stop and I think about that, that feels right to my soul. Like, so that's how I view it.

John Dehlin [00:53:40] So you don't think of them as engaging in sin. You think of what you believe for your own life. But you think of them as what? When you think of a same sex relationship that you see or what comes to your mind?

Lolly Weed [00:53:54] That's a good question.

Josh Weed [00:53:55] What comes to my mind?

John Dehlin [00:53:57] Like is it, is it, it's not sin. So it is.

Josh Weed [00:54:02] I'm not thinking about it in those terms at all.

John Dehlin [00:54:03] How about beautiful? How about awesome?

Josh Weed [00:54:06] We have friends who are in same sex relationships and. Yeah, like, you know, absolutely.

Lolly Weed [00:54:13] I'm glad they're happy.

Guest [00:54:15] Right?

Lolly Weed [00:54:15] For sure.

Josh Weed [00:54:16] But is there a but to that?

Lolly Weed [00:54:18] No, I'm just trying to formulate my thoughts.

John Dehlin [00:54:21] It's a tough question.

Josh Weed [00:54:22] Right, right.

John Dehlin [00:54:23] I know it's a tough question.

Lolly Weed [00:54:24] I mean, because really when, when you're saying like, so when we're looking at, you know, a same sex couple, are we sitting There thinking, oh, they're sinning, they're sinning. And then I think back to like the Bible where Jesus says, you know, he who's without sin, you know, cast the first stone. Why should I be sitting there thinking, you're sinning, you're sinning, you're sinning.

Josh Weed [00:54:42] I think that, I think that that's not even the, you know, like, I'm not even on that realm.

John Dehlin [00:54:47] How about the realm of what a beautiful thing. I'm really happy for them. I'm glad they have each other. Can you say that?

Josh Weed [00:54:55] Yeah. I have a friend who has sought. He was seeking a relationship for many years and has finally found one that he's been in for a while. And I am nothing but happy for him and them. And, you know, like, it's good.

Lolly Weed [00:55:12] I just don't see how you could watch someone struggle and go through a life of pain and not feeling worthwhile and feeling lonely, and then they find happiness in another individual and if you really love them, not find a sense of joy in that.

Josh Weed [00:55:30] And I just said, good for them. And I want to clarify that I mean that literally, not like in the colleague we like, good for them. I mean, like, literally, like, good for that. Like, that's good for them.

John Dehlin [00:55:41] So this is a bit of a charge topic, but what are your positions on same sex marriage? Is that the one, Is that the one you were scared to ask you?

Josh Weed [00:55:50] Well, we knew, we kind of knew it was gonna happen, but I. We're gonna make the decision. I have been hesitant in any media situation to answer that question just because I feel like these political choices are really personal and that. And I just feel like, I feel like I have felt the sense whether it's real or not, that kind of both contingencies have wanted to have alignment from our situation, you know?

John Dehlin [00:56:26] Right.

Josh Weed [00:56:27] And I honestly, I don't want to give either contingency that satisfaction. And I would rather have people just come up with their own solutions for themselves and come and decide for themselves what they think. But in doing that, I can't. People are going to jump to conclusions about what I'm talking about, you know, like which direction it goes. And so it's very kind of just like. And she's more like, let's just, just be real. So what do you think? I don't care if you're real.

Lolly Weed [00:56:59] See, because he's so trepidatious, I'm like, maybe I shouldn't say what I think.

Josh Weed [00:57:03] I should have let you speak.

John Dehlin [00:57:04] It's okay if you speak and he doesn't.

Lolly Weed [00:57:05] All right. We live in Washington state. You know, we voted on that and I voted on it. And I did vote for marriage equality. My feelings are, what I believe is, yes, I believe marriage is meant to be. Be between a man and a woman. Do I think that that belief should be put into civil law? I don't think so. In seeing the problems that have come from, like, what is it that. What. What's the law I'm thinking of?

Josh Weed [00:57:36] I don't know. I'm sorry to leave you hanging.

John Dehlin [00:57:39] Interracial marriage.

Lolly Weed [00:57:41] No.

Josh Weed [00:57:41] Oh, the act. The defense of marriage.

Lolly Weed [00:57:44] Defense of marriage, yeah. And how the problems that it's created, I just don't think that it's fair. I think there's a lot of problems coming out from that. And I just think, you know, let's look at an individual that's never been religious in their life that has found a same sex couple and they want to get married and they have children,

Josh Weed [00:58:05] found a lover together, found someone they

Lolly Weed [00:58:06] love to spend their life together, that's a lover, you know, and they have built a life together and have children together. And I just don't understand how the law is saying it's okay for you to have children and be that unit, but it's not okay to be married. And so I almost feel like it does more harm than good to fight it so much. Like, where's the agency in that? Just like, let's let everyone choose for themselves what works for them. And that's what America is about. About. Right. So I voted for marriage equality.

Josh Weed [00:58:44] And apparently I'm not commenting on what I voted for, though I did say we aligned Matthews about five minutes ago.

Lolly Weed [00:58:51] But, you know, I know it's sensitive because I have friends that are like very, you know, and I respect what they're saying. This is my opinion. This is how I view it.

John Dehlin [00:59:05] What about. Do you have. Do you have feelings or thoughts on allowing same sex couples to adopt children? Have you thought about it?

Josh Weed [00:59:14] I've thought about it extensively. Not enough to have a position other than children need good parents. So cool, you know, like.

Lolly Weed [00:59:21] Yeah, yeah. But.

John Dehlin [00:59:24] Yeah, nothing to use. Like, opposed to it instinctively.

Lolly Weed [00:59:27] No, no.

John Dehlin [00:59:28] Do you think. Do you think, Gabe, a gay couple could be good parents or a lesbian couple could be good parents?

Lolly Weed [00:59:34] I think they're capable of loving their children.

Josh Weed [00:59:36] At the same time. Yeah. At the same time, I really do feel like the ideal situation is to have a. I almost hesitate to say it because it is not PC to say this, but I do feel like the ideal Situation for a child is to have a mother and a father and both gender roles being, you know, there is this ideal that exists that is rarely met for a lot of reasons. And so. So it's hard.

Lolly Weed [01:00:06] I mean, I see.

Josh Weed [01:00:07] But I absolutely think that.

Lolly Weed [01:00:10] Yeah, I do. I agree with you.

Josh Weed [01:00:12] A gay couple could be amazing. In fact, I know some that are incredible. Parents do really, really well.

John Dehlin [01:00:20] And so we, in our, in our study, we asked about quality of life and we analyzed quality of life based on relationship status. So we started out, you know, average the mean quality of life score for single, gay, gays and lesbians and then mixed orientation marriage and then divorced and then, you know, same sex marriage but not legal, and then a legal same sex marriage. And the comparison was really startling to me. Something that was completely surprising to me was that the people who reported being single and gay or lesbian or same sex attracted reported a quality of life that was kind of awful. Like worse than rheumatoid arthritis and lupus, you know, like really bad that I didn't, I didn't anticipate. Now I don't know if heterosexual single people also feel like their lives or report that are. They might. But, but that was the worst. A step up from that in our data was, was mixed orientation marriages. It was right around lupus in terms of quality of life reported by the people.

Lolly Weed [01:01:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:39] And you guys aren't like. No, that's, that's odd to me.

Lolly Weed [01:01:42] No, no, that's not.

Josh Weed [01:01:43] I mean, that's not ours.

Lolly Weed [01:01:45] I could see that.

John Dehlin [01:01:46] Okay, so you, like that makes sense to you.

Lolly Weed [01:01:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:48] Then a step up, slight step up from that was divorce, probably not significantly different. Then a significant step up was same sex marriage, non legal. Like a significant step up.

Josh Weed [01:02:00] Right.

John Dehlin [01:02:01] Does that make sense?

Josh Weed [01:02:02] Yes. I've seen this. That, yeah, I've seen before.

John Dehlin [01:02:05] And then for some reason you get a jump. And this could be selection bias, this could be sample bias. You get a jump up. And the only category that actually seeded the national average for healthy was legal same sex marriage. And does that all seem what you would expect based on your experiences?

Lolly Weed [01:02:26] I could see that, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:27] Okay.

Josh Weed [01:02:28] Yeah. Especially given what we were talking about and terms of the quality of the mixed orientation marriages that exist right now. Like, yeah, lupus. I mean, like it's a. I. That would be a whole lot of not fun specifically thinking of that and then, and then thinking of having your culture substantiate your relationship. First of all, no longer being single as an adult in the United States who wants to be married. I would Imagine would be really a bump up in quality of life, for sure. And then having that recognized and substantiated culturally as well, it makes a lot of sense.

John Dehlin [01:03:08] Okay. Something that's sort of a little bit related. Being celibate versus being sexually active. Of all the factors that we analyzed, based on what people reported, was the single most significant factor in determining a positive versus a negative quality of life.

Josh Weed [01:03:29] Interesting.

John Dehlin [01:03:29] So, like, belief in God didn't really make a difference. Belief in Christ was actually a little bit negatively associated with quality of life, probably because people associated the Bible with judgment of their same sex attraction. And then we did things like, you know, socioeconomic status, other types of factors. But the single biggest factor in terms of, like, if you got it, you're like, way happier, way higher quality of life. And if you don't have it, you have a way awful, more awful quality of life was being sexually active. So for those who say that the church has three options, you know, same sex marriage, excommunicated, same sex relationship, excommunicated, mixed orientation marriage may not work for some people. That leaves the option of celibacy. I don't know how you could comment on that, but do you have any thoughts about celibacy as an option and what that is that like, a lot of people would say to a gay or lesbian person, hey, we've all got. We've all got trials. You know, I sometimes, you know, I sometimes really like French fries.

Guest [01:04:38] Right.

John Dehlin [01:04:39] You know, I've heard stuff like that. And you know, some people have diabetes and you just don't get to have sex for your entire life.

Josh Weed [01:04:47] Right.

John Dehlin [01:04:48] Thoughts.

Lolly Weed [01:04:48] I think those people have no idea what they're talking about.

Josh Weed [01:04:52] And this is the exact concept that I had talked to my dad about at age 13. That is the distinction. You know, he was coming at me with like, oh, yeah, I have, I have a hard time too. And I was like, you know, even at that age, I'm like, like, think it through. That is not gonna be fulfilling. You know, that is. That is a major component of life not being realized.

Lolly Weed [01:05:16] And another comparison I see people making is, well, what about the, you know, the heterosexual single population of the church? They're celibate too, all the time. But I just recently talking to a friend of mine who is heterosexual and not married, and we're the same age. And I was like, so what do you think about that comparison? She's like, no, there's no comparison. She's like, I still have hope that I can get married. Maybe someday I can go on a

Josh Weed [01:05:38] date without being judged with someone.

Lolly Weed [01:05:41] So it's just not a fair comparison. And people so want. And even we're doing it here, you want to make a comparison. That's gonna help.

Josh Weed [01:05:49] But we want to understand things, and we understand things comparatively. And so it makes sense that people would.

Lolly Weed [01:05:54] This is why this is. Like, I sit there and think about it, and I'm like, I can see why people get really depressed over this

Josh Weed [01:06:07] issue, this life circumstance. All of that being said, if Lolly were to die tomorrow, I think there's a high probability that I would be celibate for the rest of my life.

John Dehlin [01:06:19] They should feel that way.

Josh Weed [01:06:21] Who knows what will happen, you know? Like, you can't really say, you know, I cannot say that with any level of certainty.

John Dehlin [01:06:28] What if some people. What if some people are thinking, well, Josh, you just might not have much of a sex drive?

Josh Weed [01:06:33] Incorrect.

Lolly Weed [01:06:37] Okay.

Josh Weed [01:06:38] False.

John Dehlin [01:06:43] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories Podcast and Gay Mormon Stories Podcast. To check out the video version of the this episode, go to YouTube.com mormonstories to continue the conversation or to keep these podcasts alive through a financial contribution, please check us out@mormonstories.org and gaymormonstories.org and thanks for listening.

Guest [01:07:06] Come, come, ye saints. No toil nor labor fear but with joy wend your way though hard to you this journey may appear. Grace shall be as your day. Tis better far for us to strive Our useless cares from us to drive to the San Jo, your hearts will swell. Oh, all is well, all is well.

Part 3 of 3 · Ep. 414

Guest [00:00:01] Come, come, ye saints. No toil nor labor fear, but with joy wend your way.

John Dehlin [00:00:16] This interview is a joint production of Mormon Stories Podcast and Gay Mormon Stories Podcast. To check out the video version of this episode, go to YouTube.com mormonstories to keep these podcasts alive, please consider a financial contribution today. MormonStories.org and GayMormonStories.org and thanks for listening. Let's talk church for a second. Very sensitive and difficult for some. Maybe, maybe not. Are you familiar with kind of the statements made about homosexuality 10, 20, 30, 40 years ago? President Kimball Boyd K. Packer, Ernest Wilkinson, or, you know, Mark E. Peterson, that kind of stuff? It's traditional in LDS circles to look at our prophets and our apostles as prophets, seers and revelators, as mouthpieces for God. And some of the things that have been said in the past are interpreted by many to be kind of awful about gays and lesbians and homosexuality. How do you guys reconcile that with your beliefs? Do you believe everything that they say? Do you feel like there's some other middle ground? How do you look on those past statements?

Past Church Teachings on Homosexuality and Prophetic Fallibility

Josh Weed [00:01:42] So I'll speak for myself. When I was 14 or so, I was reading the Miracle of Forgiveness, which in many ways is a good book, but I got to the section on homosexuality and I literally threw the book across the room. I had a very visceral reaction to what was said. And that was my first read through. And you know, and I did not. It really upset me. And I remember after that being driven to a violin lesson. I played the violin by my dad, and that's where we would talk about things a lot is on our way to violin lessons. And I was just like, dad, I mean, have you read that? Like, what the heck is, you know, this is a prophet of God. And he said these things. I can't even remember what specifically was upsetting to me at the time, time. But he, his answer to that question was very helpful and has been helpful for me since then. He was just like, he is a prophet. You know, he was a prophet because at the time he was no longer the prophet. And he is also a human being who lives in a culture. And there is some necessity of deciphering between those two things. And not everything that is uttered by a prophet is prophetic. And I remember at the time being like, but what? Because I was very youthful mind and wanted to be more black and white in my thinking. In my thinking. And so that was hard for me to digest at the time. But subsequently I have seen that Reality borne out. And I tend to subscribe to the notion that I have recently been hearing. I can't even remember, I think it was in a recent conference where they were talking about kind of the idea of consensus. This is why we have 15 witnesses and not one. This is why there are so many voices that have that prophetic mantle. And when you're hearing a consensus about an important topic, that has more. I don't know even how to describe this other than to say that, yes, I have seen the language regarding this issue shift over time and I'm so glad that it is shifting and I think it needed to shift. But at the same time, I believe in prophecy and I believe we have a prophet and I believe that the Quorum of the twelve and the first Presidency are chosen by God to lead the church and that they do receive revelations for the church body.

John Dehlin [00:04:45] So

Josh Weed [00:04:48] I think it's a complex delivery system of information and it involves self and it involves others, and it involves the spirit and having your own confirmations of truth. And, and anyway, yeah, I, I think that, I think that the recent website is. I was overjoyed when that was dropped. I was just like, yes, you know,

John Dehlin [00:05:24] like this is the Mormons and gays.

Josh Weed [00:05:26] Mormonsandgays.org Mormonsandegays.org Mormonsand gays.org yes.

John Dehlin [00:05:34] Why some may not understand why that is exciting to you.

Josh Weed [00:05:38] That is, even to this day, I am, I have received direct discrimination because I self identify as gay as a member of the church as opposed to, not as opposed to in it. For me, in addition to, I'm just like same sex attracted, homosexual gay. Okay. You know, like, let's just talk in a language where we all understand each other. All right. Like, let's just make sure that we're talking about the same issue here. You know, that's kind of my approach to this. But the fact that I even have used the word gay has been very, has been looked down on. And so it was very. Yeah, it was, it was a powerful moment to see that that was the URL and also to see that in other places same gender and same sex attraction was used in the same website. And you know, like, I understand the nuances and I accept them and I, and I accept what that means. And I'm not like thinking that we need to have a complete overhaul of our languaging of things, but just. Yeah, it was, it was significant to me. And the website itself was incredibly powerful and so encouraging. And I was just like, would that I had seen this two decades ago, you know, an amazing step and a true exemplification of a church founded on revelation. And for anybody, both personally and I think as the church, revelation is not a vacuum process. There's a cybernetic element to the process of revelation. A problem arises and people need to seek answers. And those answers over time shift. And clarity comes over time, through consensus and through the spirit. And sometimes there are moments of clarity that are really profound, but other times there's more of a struggle. And so anyway, those are my thoughts.

David [00:07:51] What are your thoughts?

Lolly Weed [00:07:52] That's great. I don't know. I couldn't add on to that stamp of approval.

David [00:07:56] That's good.

Lolly Weed [00:07:57] That's how I view it.

John Dehlin [00:07:58] And just to quickly. Some of the other things that people really love about the website is that they. They send the clear message that you're sending to parents, family, friends, which is,

Josh Weed [00:08:08] love your child, and it's okay to love your child. Don't reject your child.

Lolly Weed [00:08:12] Even if they choose, no matter what, they have a lifestyle that's different from what the church would have them choose.

Josh Weed [00:08:18] It is so much more important to keep that connection alive than anything else.

Lolly Weed [00:08:23] Yeah. Keep your connection together intact.

Josh Weed [00:08:27] It's funny to even say those words because they sound so, like, obvious. Yeah, like self evident. But it is helpful to have that kind of endorsement of permission, like, it is okay to love your child. You know, it's good.

John Dehlin [00:08:46] Critics or skeptics or people that have been harmed would see this notion of prophets very differently. They would sort of say, this is not an example of man listening to God and, you know, and sharing with the church God's will. This is an example of what some might describe, even in very, very severe language, and say this has been a holocaust where maybe thousands of young men and women have taken their lives over these awful statements that men who should have known better have said. And it's 180 years too late. And it's not so much a beautiful illustration of the prophetic process, but instead it's a reactionary process to Proposition 8 backlash. And it comes way late and after too many deaths. And it's just a PR stunt to try and save face for all the people that have been damaged. How do you. Do you relate to that? And how do you square that with what I believe was a sincere expression of your beliefs in the prophetic process?

Josh Weed [00:10:06] I disagree with that wholeheartedly. And I have. I feel like I have insight into that now more so than I ever have. Where I. With this blog post specifically, you know, I've never done anything public ever in my life. You know, like publicity has not been a component of my existence until seven months ago. But I have discovered that it is really, really easy to ascribe motivations to actions in the aftermath, especially when it involves large swaths of people. And so, you know, in terms of our situation, people have just ludicrous stuff like. Like we outed ourselves as part of the Romney. Romney campaign. That is not our political persuasion necessarily. You know, like just these things that are.

John Dehlin [00:11:00] We're trying to build a practice.

Josh Weed [00:11:01] Trying to. Yes, exactly. Like these just.

John Dehlin [00:11:05] Or.

Lolly Weed [00:11:06] Or someone said because of the marriage equality vote in the. In Washington.

Josh Weed [00:11:11] In Washington, yeah. Like we were somehow premeditating that. That would.

John Dehlin [00:11:15] Which you say you voted for.

Josh Weed [00:11:16] Right? Precisely. So it's like it is really easy to draw certain conclusions in the aftermath. But the fact is we had. We were going on our gut and the spirit and we were doing the best we could and things then unfolded and then you react to the things as they unfold. And I, I give the brethren that luxury, especially as I understand it more deeply, the luxury of being able to be human and do things that affect large numbers of people and also the benefit of the doubt as they proceed forward and try and adjust as things are not maybe as they should be. So that's my response, I guess.

John Dehlin [00:12:07] And that feels very human and loving. What about those who would say, look, they've got an extra. They've got to be ahead of us here. They've got the bat phone and they should be able to be ahead of the civil rights movement. They should be able to see. That's what prophecy is. It's seeing ahead of time and making the right choice before it's a major problem versus after. So how do you think about prophecy or the prophetic element of prophecy when for some it seems to come, you know, oppose the civil rights movement until it's 10 years after and then support civil rights and oppose the ERA movement until. And then now oppose gay marriage. And it just. Some would say that it's the reverse of prophetic. It's reactionary, too little, too late. And I'm not trying to put you on the spot because I think you've answered the question.

Josh Weed [00:13:03] Yeah, I don't mind. My response to that is so era, for example, and this is not going to be applicable to all subsets, but we'll take that one for example. And I think probably each of those issues has its own.

John Dehlin [00:13:19] You shouldn't even mention it.

Josh Weed [00:13:21] But yeah, I think that. Okay, I've Never really expressed these thoughts, so forgive me if they come out weird, but like part of being a prophet is preaching repentance to people. That is when the whole like don't judge other things kind of dissipates, you know, like we aren't supposed to judge each other, but a prophet has to be able to assess a community in a situation. And so I see as a marriage and family therapist working in 2013, what I consider to be ramifications of. And I am no historian and I don't get stuff, and I have like feminist ideas, you know, like I am. But I see ramifications of the ERA movement and of masculinity and gender that are playing out, that are not in every case awesome and in fact can be, I would consider to be problematic. And so an element of prophecy is being able to foresee those things and to warn against them. And sometimes those warnings are heated and sometimes in a culture that is a culture, they can't or won't be. You know, and so I think that sometimes prophecy is making those kinds of predictions and sometimes prophecy is knowing when to acquiesce. And so I don't know. And so that's my gut opinion.

Lolly Weed [00:15:12] Didn't Moses come back with the Ten Commandments?

John Dehlin [00:15:15] You know, so he started with the higher law, didn't work out so well, came back with the lower law.

Josh Weed [00:15:22] Precisely. Precisely. That's what you're saying, something along those lines.

John Dehlin [00:15:27] You're saying it can change.

Josh Weed [00:15:28] It's way more nuanced than that. And I don't mean to judge any of those things specifically, but yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:34] So it kind of sounds like you just have faith.

Josh Weed [00:15:36] Precisely.

John Dehlin [00:15:37] You trust that there are good reasons, even if you don't understand why. Yeah. And that's kind of what faith is. So our data show that those with same sex attraction who erased LDs about 70% report leaving the church or losing their testimony in the church after acknowledging their same sex attraction. That's what the data seem to suggest. So my guess is, Josh, that you would not have married a woman if it weren't for the church. So when somebody does make that choice, and it's based on religion, if it's true that that 70 plus percent of these people do in fact leave, is that a flimsy foundation upon which to build a marriage? Because if that faith erodes, if you, if your faith let's. You know, I meet a lot of people who were bishops or stake presidents. I've even met a former sort of area authority, general authority, who lost his faith.

Josh Weed [00:16:45] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:16:47] If that happened, would it have you? I mean, it's kind of speculative, but is that a dangerous foundation to build a marriage on, knowing that faith could slip, especially for people in this situation?

Tim [00:17:07] Yes.

Josh Weed [00:17:11] No more dangerous than building a marriage on it for heterosexual people. You know, I think that most LDs people are building their marriage on. On a lot of ideals having to do with the gospel and the church and that if one does lose his or her faith, that suddenly everything is being reevaluated, everything is being looked at in a completely new way. And it's difficult terrain, for sure. And so that being the case, you know, absolutely, it would have major ramifications if I were to lose my faith or if you were to lose your faith. It would. Would I recommend not. You know what I mean? Like building upon that foundation. No, we can't build our lives based on the possible contingencies of, you know, faith or loss of faith or there's a risk in all the things we do. And I could go hit. Get hit by a bus to. Or whatever and that would pose a lot of challenges, you know what I mean? So, like, I think that going forward sometimes requires. And I guess what you're saying is the risk analysis Is that 70%? So. No. I don't know. Yeah, it would affect things for sure.

Proposition 8 and LGBT Inclusion in Scouting

John Dehlin [00:18:30] Okay, thoughts on Proposition 8. And we know your views on same sex marriage. Were you sad at all that the church got involved? Do you even want to comment on whether that was appropriate or whether in the future it would be appropriate or do you just.

Josh Weed [00:18:49] I think I'm going to steer clear on that one.

John Dehlin [00:18:50] Okay, that's fine.

Lolly Weed [00:18:52] Yeah, yeah, I'm still. I'm still thinking about that one. So I don't even know if I could articulate what I'm thinking. Still making sense of it.

John Dehlin [00:19:00] Yeah. I don't want to put you in the position of like, having to oppose the church.

Josh Weed [00:19:04] Totally, totally.

John Dehlin [00:19:10] If the church. The church used to say the blacks couldn't hold the priesthood or engage in temple ordinances, actually at first they could, but then they couldn't, and then they changed it back to say that they could. If the church were to change and say, you know what, same sex marriage is, okay, would you guys.

Josh Weed [00:19:32] So I've had this question posed previously and I think my favorite answer that I've given is that when I chose Lolly as my spouse, I did not choose her above all women. I chose her above all human beings, all people. So I don't think that that would have any relevance to our relationship, any impact of Course you can't have know what would happen. But that fear, you know,

Lolly Weed [00:20:00] she's it

Josh Weed [00:20:01] for me, like, this is it. Like my life is great and I. I mean that. It's a really, really good life. And I feel happy in my life and I feel like I have. I honestly feel like I have a soulmate in Lolly and that would not change, you know, so.

Lolly Weed [00:20:29] Yeah, no, I feel the same way. Like I love him. We've talked about this in a real way. Like, what if things did change? What will we do? And like the thought of losing him, like, I wouldn't be complete. Like he. He's my love, like who I want to be with forever. And I don't think that that would change that.

Tim [00:20:59] No.

Josh Weed [00:21:02] Our life is going to continue together and the visualizations that I have of us as like octogenarians with our grandkids running around and stuff are gonna happen. Unless there's some bus accident. That's pretty easy.

Lolly Weed [00:21:16] Yeah.

Josh Weed [00:21:17] Like knocking on wood. I know I should like any surface, but yeah, we're. This is. This is it for me for sure.

John Dehlin [00:21:32] So I love that because I was actually. I was actually thinking about a different question. Really? No, but this is really important to me because I was asking whether you'd be okay with the church's new policy.

Josh Weed [00:21:44] Oh, I love how he just jumped the gun.

John Dehlin [00:21:46] He made it personal and it just shows the perspective. I'm thinking globally. How personal? You took that question.

Josh Weed [00:21:54] Yeah, we have thought about it. We've been there.

John Dehlin [00:21:58] And if the church were to say for other people, that's okay.

Josh Weed [00:22:03] My opinion is that I don't foresee that happening in terms of temple marriage. But we've talked about having faith and I do. And if that were to happen, I would continue to have faith.

John Dehlin [00:22:18] So would you like to see a gay same sex married couple be able to hold callings and serve in the church?

Josh Weed [00:22:25] I think we're already starting to see inklings of that in certain communities.

John Dehlin [00:22:29] We are.

Josh Weed [00:22:30] I find it very exciting.

John Dehlin [00:22:31] There are awards. I'm just going to say this. There are awards where people in same sex relationships are not being punished by the church. They're not having any church discipline. They're in full committed relationships in the church, are able to pray, are able to talk, able to have callings with no punishment. It is happening. A lot of people want to know if you believe that your same sex attraction will disappear in the resurrection.

Josh Weed [00:22:56] I do.

John Dehlin [00:22:57] You do.

Lolly Weed [00:22:58] Okay.

Josh Weed [00:22:58] I don't know what that means in terms of personality traits. And I wrote a blog post about it. And my current belief is that it will and at that. So.

Tim [00:23:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:08] And Boy Scouts opinion on the Boy Scouts.

Josh Weed [00:23:11] I was a Boy Scout, and I do find it a little weird that I wouldn't have been considered a Boy Scout or been able to be a Boy Scout if I had been out. And I think that one of the things that I'm thinking about is that I would love to see inclusion. And I was very kind of. I made a joke when they were considering the change. I was like, you know, I'm really excited by this, except for the fact that I was really looking forward to never, ever being a Scout Master for the rest of my life.

John Dehlin [00:23:45] But.

Josh Weed [00:23:45] But my honest feelings are that I think that inclusion would be great. And I actually think that it would raise awareness. I think that in terms. Because people are conflating homosexuality with pedophilia, I think is probably one of the concerns. And I'm like, no, no, no. Like, pedophiles are out there currently independent of homosexuality. And if. If there was a heightened awareness, then things like too deep leadership would be more consistently relied on. And in fact, I think risk would be reduced overall. And so I actually think it would be beneficial to the organization and to the individual. So that's my thoughts. Do you have your thoughts?

Lolly Weed [00:24:27] I agree. I love the Boy Scouts.

Josh Weed [00:24:29] Yeah. It's a good organization overall.

John Dehlin [00:24:37] We should have asked this a little bit back, but what do you tell your kids? How do you handle this with your children? Do they know? Do you talk about it? Are they even old enough to be aware?

Lolly Weed [00:24:48] Our oldest is six and. And she doesn't even really understand sexuality yet. And so I think when we talk about sexuality, we will talk about homosexuality and we will explain to her that Josh is homosexual. And obviously we're going to bring it into a gospel context and all of that, but I feel confident that it will be okay. And knowing our children, it's better that they know right away.

Josh Weed [00:25:16] As early as possible.

John Dehlin [00:25:17] Yeah, 13.

Lolly Weed [00:25:20] Earlier than that.

Josh Weed [00:25:21] Like maybe nine. Eight or nine.

John Dehlin [00:25:23] So you plan on having that conversation?

Josh Weed [00:25:25] Yeah, we're going to be watching their cues, you know, of course. And probably each child might. Each child might be different and.

Lolly Weed [00:25:33] But yeah, but then society, anyways, parents should be talking about with their kids about sexuality at a younger age anyway. So I think it's important.

Josh Weed [00:25:41] It ended up being earlier than we would expect that we would need to have that conversation.

Panel Discussion with Tim and David

John Dehlin [00:25:47] All right, well, now we turn to sort of a shift in the format. We've brought on two distinguished guests to be part of A panel. So, Tim and David, welcome to Mormon Stories podcast. We're so glad you could join us for a bit of a discussion. Tim, why don't you go ahead and start and tell us a bit about yourself and why you're interested in this topic.

Josh Weed [00:26:13] Sure.

Tim [00:26:14] Thanks for having me. I'm a native Utahan, born and raised, devout Mormon, I'm a gay man. I consider myself. Well, I am ex Mormon now. I'm in a same sex relationship that I've been in for almost five years and I also have very devout Mormon family and friends.

John Dehlin [00:26:36] Excellent. Good. All right, David, tell us a bit about yourself.

David [00:26:40] Yeah. I am originally from Chicago. I grew up there from a devout Mormon family. Came out to Utah about 10 years ago. Absolutely loved it. Stayed. I graduated from the Y, served a mission, came back and worked at BYU for the church and just finishing up a master's degree in business.

John Dehlin [00:27:02] Excellent.

David [00:27:03] And I run a blog called Game Warming Guy.

John Dehlin [00:27:06] Right. So, okay. So, Tim, I want to start with you because I imagine that this interview might elicit some strong emotions for someone who not only self identifies as gay, but who's comfortable with it, who's in a same sex relationship. What'd you feel and what'd you experience as you heard Josh and Lally tell their story?

Lolly Weed [00:27:27] Sure.

Tim [00:27:27] I came into this I think with trepidation and if I look at it, fear really, because I have my prejudices about what's going on for the two of you. But as I heard your story, there's been more of a shift. I think I worried. My worry that I think a lot of people that are maybe in a similar position as me may have is that you're the token couple and people who are not as informed about sexuality, sexual orientation, and this topic would misrepresent you to negatively work against me and my rights. And so that's the concern that I had coming in. But as I heard you tell your story and I see, you know, this authentic bonding and attachment that you have together and um, I see that you really care for each other. One and the second thing, to hear that you support my rights, it frees me to support you and to support what you're doing and say, hey, I think, you know, that that's really cool. So it really diffuses those, those fears that I had coming in not knowing as much as I thought or not knowing about you in great detail. So I really appreciate that. And I think I don't know how representative you are of people in mixed orientation marriages. I don't typically, I kind of think that that's correlated with people who are very fundamental and devout and so they'll have a hard time seeing these matters as gray. But I certainly appreciate hearing, hearing your stances and your support.

John Dehlin [00:29:19] Tim, were there any moments for you where you cringed or felt anxious or sad?

Tim [00:29:25] Well, when I hear the religious terminology, I'm not, because I've been away from Mormonism. It's a foreign language almost to me now, and it's alienating in a way. And it also, again, kind of triggers those fears of that kind of language. And those ideas have been used to abuse people like you and I and David.

Guest [00:29:52] So

Tim [00:29:55] that creates those kind of uncomfortable emotions and kind of memories. And I have a hard time connecting with that. But outside of that, when just connecting, like person to person, I think that helps bridge the gap. And when it's not all about seeing things through a Mormon perspective, but a global perspective helps with that.

John Dehlin [00:30:18] As you, as you think about the love that you've experienced, and then you heard Josh talk about the fact that he's never actually been in a relationship with a man or, you know, experienced the opportunity to have that sort of full expression of committed, same sex love that you've had, was there a part of you that was sad for him or said, man, you're missing out or was there any of that that you felt like you don't know what you're missing kind of thing?

Tim [00:30:48] You know, I wonder if you're curious. I wonder if both of you, like, grieve the loss like Josh, for you, the loss of an opportunity to have sex with a guy and for you to be with someone that is heterosexual and, you know, and had to go through that similarly, like how I had to grieve, like not having this community that you guys have.

Lolly Weed [00:31:13] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:31:15] Can we even start?

Josh Weed [00:31:16] Yeah, yeah, I perfectly phrased. Yeah. It was a loss that we, that we grieved, that we mutually experienced.

Lolly Weed [00:31:25] You give up one thing for another. Yeah, there is a. There is a loss.

Josh Weed [00:31:30] Absolutely. And I thought, I think the comparison was perfect, you know, and that's why these choices are really hard, because we're talking about real losses. You're talking about a real loss and I'm talking about a real loss and she's talking about a real loss. And. And the world does not accommodate us having all the things and we have to make choices. And so, yeah, I think that was very well expressed. I liked how you said that.

John Dehlin [00:32:02] David, let's bring you in any immediate reactions or thoughts or feelings about Josh and Lolly's story.

David [00:32:10] Well, I've heard Josh and Lonnie's story before. We actually met Josh at a conference in November right after I came out on my blog.

John Dehlin [00:32:20] And is that circling the wagons?

David [00:32:23] No, it was a conference in Provo. Hosted by.

John Dehlin [00:32:26] @UVU?

David [00:32:29] No, at the Provo Convention Center. It was through the mcap. And I was there standing with Josh and Ty Mansfield. And one of the comments that was said was like, hey, these are, like, the three Mormons who have, like, blogged and done things and got some type of notoriety, all standing here together. We could be like a little club.

John Dehlin [00:32:52] I believe in gay Mormon rock stars.

David [00:32:54] That's right.

Josh Weed [00:32:57] Start a band.

David [00:33:00] Yeah. So I love their story. And as far as, like, it was interesting to hear because I honestly believe that at some point in my life, I'll be in a marriage with a woman and incredibly in love and happy and, like, I agree wholeheartedly with many of the things I said in that you have to be really careful. You have to understand what it is that you're going into. You have to realize that it's probably going to take more work than your best friend who got married at 21 off his mission to his girlfriend that he's known for 15 years, but at the same time, having the faith that, like, something can happen, that you don't understand, that you can still be completely homosexual and completely in love with someone, that your brain has the ability to do that and that God has the ability that. That the stars will align, whether it's luck or blessings. That whole conversation about blessings made me, like, want to grab the mic, because for me, I don't look at life as blessings being proof of God's love for one person more than another. I think that in our culture, in our world, because blessings can come from righteousness, sometimes we ascribe blessings to righteousness, and I think that God only gives blessings. So, I mean, you look in the scriptures and, sorry to use Mormon terminology, but you look the scriptures, and it says that a pure fountain can't bring forth muddy water. And in my perspective, like, everything that happens in your life is a good thing. And part of life is figuring out what those good things are and why they're part of your life, even if

John Dehlin [00:35:13] their experience is bad or sad or hard.

David [00:35:16] And, I mean, yes, I mean, my little brother just got through his last round of chemotherapy from leukemia. Second sibling that I've had who had cancer, and an incredibly difficult experience for him, for our family, but a huge blessing in our family as well. And I think that honestly, honestly, all things are blessings. And for me, like, that's what I wanted to jump out and say

Josh Weed [00:35:51] because

David [00:35:52] I look at the really, really, really hard things that have happened in my life and looking back on them, looking back, you have 2020 vision, but I, I'm really glad that they all happened.

John Dehlin [00:36:10] Tim, I don't want to put you on the spot, but any, anything about hearing David share his feelings that causes you feelings or concerns?

Tim [00:36:19] Well, I, I get concerned about the religion, the religion being a reason for not being in a same sex relationship. Like, I wonder if we took that out of the equation. What rational reasons do people provide for, you know, being in a mixed orientation relationship, being closeted or not being closeted and being in a same sex marriage. And my concern is how much of that is our choices when we're,

John Dehlin [00:36:56] I

Tim [00:36:56] guess, religiously devout, how much of them are really being externally driven through like, shame and ideals that may not be our own. So I have a hard time not seeing that. And I wonder that when I, when I meet gay Mormons, when I meet Mormons, because I once was one. So I know for me that that was the story that so much of it was fear and shame. And once that was gone and once I could see, oh my gosh, look, I can be in a community that loves and supports me and not despite the fact that I'm gay, but just because I'm me. It brings a lot of this stuff into question for myself and it does become hard to hear those kinds of things.

John Dehlin [00:37:51] So I appreciate your responses. For me, there's kind of a bit of an elephant in the room in this. Josh and Lali, we just got through talking about, you know, if mixed orientation marriages were to have a big red warning label that you would sort of endorse the label saying, warning, potentially hazardous to your health, be warned. And yet we have David who just said in some ways he's kind of inspired by your story and really optimistic that he's going to be able to do this. And I know that parents of young gay and lesbian Mormons are feeling the same way that everyone's thinking, okay, it may be 5%, but I can do it. I've got that faith, I've got that determination, I've got that trust in the Lord. And Even if it's 5 or 10%, that's a huge number of marriages and people who are going to say, I can have intimacy, I can have faith, I can be righteous. And so in a way it seems like we're doing the thing that we just got through saying, we're really scared might happen. And I'm wondering how you guys feel about that, hearing David say he's really excited. David, I'm wondering how you feel hearing me express that concern. So

Should Mixed-Orientation Couples Be Warned and Closing Reflections

Josh Weed [00:39:09] I think maybe, maybe we envision different labels, slightly different. I think that the lay of the warning. I think there should definitely be a warning. I think the warning that I think would be most fitting would be something along the lines of proceed with caution, with great caution. And also it's going to be a large label, apparently, but get educated and really know what you're doing. But I would not try to dissuade people that wanted to enter into a mixed orientation marriage from doing that. I think it actually comes down to what you were saying that Tim. Sorry, Tim. What you were saying, Tim. What you were talking about in terms of shaming, being shamed, and as opposed to authentically entering into the life that you want for yourself for your own internal reasons as opposed to external reasons. I think that. I think it ultimately comes down to that. And I think that in terms of my specific story, for me, it all centers around the fact that my dad said that he would love me no matter what. That was a pivotal moment for me when he said that he would love and accept me no matter what I chose for myself. That freed me to explore options in a way that I wouldn't otherwise have been able to. I was not acting to please other people. I was making choices based on my own internal compass. And I think that when that is happening in a case, maybe like David's or, you know, I think that that's a critical component of any decision making process and that. So, yeah, but the label still needs to be there. Like, proceed with great caution and education. Education and know what you want for yourself. This is what I talk about with my clients a lot. Like, okay, cool. Like, you have a culture and a family and all these expectations from different people, but, like, talking to you, like, inside of you, what do you want for yourself, for your life? And answers vary.

John Dehlin [00:41:23] Yeah. David, are you at all worried that you'll end up like, this number, the 75% we're throwing around? Like, sometimes there's this notion of naive optimism that I can do it and I believe in me. Are you at all worried about the risks?

David [00:41:39] Well, the thing is that I'm not totally sure it's gonna happen. And I don't think that I would go into it unless I felt like, given all the risks, it was definitely worth it. And when I say that I'm excited. I'm excited about life. Like whether it's finding a soulmate or finding someone that I will work with or not, I think that life is. Life is awesome regardless. And so, I mean, I'm definitely aware of the risks. I mean, having my own blog. I've heard many stories, happy stories, sad stories. People who are currently in mixed orientation marriages, who are incredibly happy with their lives and who have multiple kids and have never told anyone but me, or people who tell me that I'm a sinner for just even thinking about doing that. But I, I mean, I, I honestly believe that focusing on God and doing the right things, that I'll go down the best path. And whether that's finding someone now, finding someone in 40 years, not finding someone in this life, I'm, I'm good with that.

John Dehlin [00:43:03] Tim, I'm wondering if there's any part of you, as a gay man that worries that Tim and Josh are setting an example, let's just say, for the gay community, where they're basically, instead of saying not only I live who I am, but I'm going to live as I'm oriented because there's nothing wrong with being same sex married or in a same sex relationship that in some way they're sending messages to people to not be who they truly feel like they should be, at least in terms of relationships.

Tim [00:43:43] Yeah. And I think for all of us that's true because homophobia is a cultural value. And so all of us, it's like the smog in the air. We're all breathing it in and we all have it to a degree. So it's just being aware of that. I do, I think, I mean, from what you say, it seems like you're more accepting and comfortable because you're open about your orientation. And maybe that's enough for both of you. I don't, I don't know. Everyone has to choose. I think from my own experience, it wasn't worth it to me to stay under in a community that was not accepting of me. Like, why would I keep pushing to belong somewhere where they don't want me, where they don't fully love me, you know, and so I mean, to simply answer your question, yes, to a degree, I do worry about that. And not that it's something unique to you. I think it's something that all three of us share because we're. And four, because you're married, that we're all marginalized within the community at large and especially in the Mormon community.

John Dehlin [00:45:00] All right, Tim, any final questions for Josh And Lally, before we wrap up or comments. Sorry, I was going to ask you one other question. Can you tell us what it's like to be in a same sex relationship? Is it, you know, if you were to sort of, you know, they've had a chance to say how wonderful their relationship is. Can you talk about how yours is?

Tim [00:45:27] Yeah, in a lot of ways it's the same ups and downs. Companionship, honeymoon period, honeymoon's over, friend stage, all these kinds of things. The other relationships that are non homosexual go through one thing that. Well, I think you guys get this now that you're out, you would get this to a degree. But like I have extra stress in my relationship that I have to worry. You know, we just went on vacation. We have to worry if where we go, are they gonna be favorable to us, are we gonna be discriminated against? Are we gonna be threatened in any kind of way? And so it has that additional stress which makes it hard, I think, for same sex marriage. That's why I think same sex marriage is so important. You know, you give those statistics. Well, what's the common thread in that? It's mutual love and support, that we all need community and support and that we're taking that away in these religious communities and. And then we're seeing people flounder and then we're wondering why, like that's, it's tragic, it's very unfortunate. Hearing Josh and Lolly's story, I greatly appreciate it and can say that my perspective is broadened and because I hear, and I'm reiterate because I hear that you support me and my choices and not just like, oh yeah, hey, I support you. Gay is cool, but actually politically you are. And very publicly again, that frees me to mutually support you and I. So the people in the gay community are threatened by your relationship because there's so much historical trauma regarding the treatment of gay, lesbian, bisexual people that hair, look, be like them. They're trying to be heterosexual, just, you know, be like us who are heterosexual. And it's very invalidating. And then the flip side is that I could see that it's invalidating to you, I wonder, because you're like marginalized in both communities. You don't have a place neither.

Josh Weed [00:47:46] So true.

Lolly Weed [00:47:47] So true.

John Dehlin [00:47:48] Except aren't you guys kind of poster children like the New Hope?

Lolly Weed [00:47:51] No, not. No, There are communities.

Josh Weed [00:47:55] There are community there in every sector. There's. There are those that are supportive and those that think that we are the devil reincarnate in the church. Oh, yeah, absolutely. There are people that do not believe homosexuality is real still, that think that I am totally deceived. And, you know, well, and I think

Tim [00:48:13] maybe then you're a bridge for those kind of people that just are not gonna reach the level of progress that we want to see in life.

Josh Weed [00:48:20] And that's one of the things that we've seen, is that in addition to the response that we've talked about, which is unfortunate, where the story is proliferated in a way that is kind of abusive, on the other hand, we've gotten a lot of response of people that are like, I actually did not believe that homosexuality was real until I heard your story. And you don't have a reason to be lying about it because, you know, you're living in the way that my thinking thinks people should live. And yet you're still saying that you're homosexual. And so it's, it's the step toward actual, towards actually believing that it's a real thing and not changeable. And I wanted to point out that you made the comparison of our relationships in terms of marginalization. And we have the luxury of privilege because people that see us assume, you know, if we're on vacation, people will see us and assume that I am heterosexual. And so we have that inherent privilege, whereas you guys don't. And so I think we appear to be a thing, quote, unquote, normal. And so I think that you probably face that much more in a much more challenging way than we do.

Tim [00:49:36] For sure, you guys can pass.

Josh Weed [00:49:38] That's right. That's right. That's exactly right.

Tim [00:49:44] Because in our community, in the gay community, you have to continually worry about, am I gonna be accepted here? Am I going to face hostility, Can I go home for Christmas? You know, some partners, the family is not accepting at all, or someone they're really accepting. And you don't have that, that same support. You don't have that same legal protection. You know, I, I don't have the same right, inheritance rights or automatic inheritance rights, or always the same access to health insurance and those kinds of things, which really stinks.

Josh Weed [00:50:31] Totally, totally. I can.

Tim [00:50:38] So I could see why. I mean, I see what's appealing in being a heterosexual relationship beyond being with someone that you really love, because it really does cost a lot to come out fully and to be in a same sex relationship. And it costs not to as well. So I think it's like what you said earlier. There's, you get something, you lose something.

Josh Weed [00:51:02] It's a choice and it's knowing what choice you as a human being want to make and what's best for your own life and for yourself. And it's okay that sometimes choices look different for different people.

Tim [00:51:15] How do you. I wonder for you guys, how do you reconcile? And I wonder this for the people. So this is for all three of you. The loved ones that I have in the Mormon community, that on the one hand, they're supportive of me, and then on the other hand, just by being participating in an organization that is oppressive to me, they're complicit in it. Like, they're giving tithing. They're. Whatever they're going on and endorsing it. And I'm just wondering, how do you make sense of that and reconcile that in your mind to not feel like, upset or guilt or. I do. You know what I mean?

Guest [00:51:56] So

David [00:51:59] I definitely believe in everything the church teaches. And so, like, my views differ from Josh's and Lolly's in some places. And so I don't. I've never felt like the church was oppressive in my life or that. I mean, I never really felt oppressed by anyone, whether at school or. I mean, I was never bullied at school. And when I came out to my family and friends, like, no one thought that it would have happened type of thing. And I think that the culture of the church is something that definitely needs to change, and that is changing. But I also believe that the doctrine of the church and all the rest of the programs that are supported by tithing or by service or whatever else are definitely worth supporting. And I think that having the conversation that changes the culture is an important way of changing that culture and making sure that people don't feel oppressed. Making sure that people feel like they can be authentic and understanding who they are and who they want to be.

Tim [00:53:17] So if I can follow up with that. You don't see your. You don't see. I heard you say you don't. You're not oppressed by the church, but do you see that others who may identify with your same identity as gay, as a gay Mormon, that they're oppressed like people like Josh or, or you, Tim, or myself?

David [00:53:37] Well, I, I can only talk about my own experience. I mean, I. I've never felt oppressed personally. And like, I'm sure that it's definitely possible for people to feel that. But at least from what I've seen in my life, the times when I, When I felt like I didn't fit in the church, it wasn't because I had understood the doctrines correctly. It was because I had interpreted a cultural bias as a doctrine or I didn't accept myself at that point. And so I'm not totally sure. Like, I know that it can be for some people, but I think that addressing the culture will probably solve most of those problems, at least the ones that I've seen in my own life.

John Dehlin [00:54:43] Do you have a response, Tim?

Tim [00:54:46] Yeah, I just, I don't. I disagree. I think that it's doctrinally based. I mean, you have prophets that are on record, the Mormon Church saying homophobic statements. And I agree with some of what you're saying, but I know that going along with Mormonism, it's very authoritarian and you have, you know, it's what the authority says. And so we're not used to this culture really challenging that because we're not taught skills to do that, and we're not taught that it's okay. And I'm a social worker, and I see such parallels between. I've worked with women who are abused, and I see such parallels between Mormons who struggle with Mormonism and women who are abused that they just cannot leave it. They have a hard time seeing the oppression. All their resources are wrapped up in this guy or in this case, the church. So it makes it hard to leave. So I. It is hard for me to fully see the. To agree with that.

John Dehlin [00:55:51] And we're. We're wrapping up. So go ahead and just respond to Tim and David and a final thought on that. Bring it back home.

Josh Weed [00:55:57] Yeah, I'll try the. So. In my perception, I'm looking at Mormonism as kind of a like, like looking at different systems, you know, so, like our culture, our broad culture, like American culture, also has some problematic features when it. With regards to homosexuality and oppressiveness. And there have been some things said, you know, within our culture. Some, Some ideas propagated. They're, like, really messed up. And I don't necessarily think that the solution to that is to jettison the culture itself, but to, within the culture, attempt to. Attempt to. To galvanize a shift of paradigm that would be better and be kinder and be more appropriate to others. And so. And so I view that. I view that on levels. So our broad culture, and then also LDS culture, and even just like my family culture, that has that same kind of dynamic sometimes. And so that's how I view it, for better or for worse. That's how my brain conceptualizes it. So.

John Dehlin [00:57:23] All right, well, I just want to thank this panel for. For a fascinating and a wonderful discussion. Tim Wayman, thank you so much for sharing a little bit of your experience. David Peterson, thank you so much also for coming on. And as we kind of wrap up Josh and Lali, I just want to thank you guys for your beautiful story, for the people that you are, for your courage, and for your sensitivity and insightfulness. It's been such a pleasure to have you on Mormon Stories Podcast. Gay Mormon Stories Podcast. Just want to thank you so much for coming on and wish you guys all the best.

Josh Weed [00:58:02] Thank you. Such a pleasure.

Lolly Weed [00:58:03] Yes, definitely.

Josh Weed [00:58:04] We loved it.

John Dehlin [00:58:06] Good.

Josh Weed [00:58:06] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:58:07] I'll just end by saying listeners please check us or viewers please check us out@mormonstories.org or gamemormiststories.org Feel free to comment there. Maybe we can even get our panelists and Josh and Lali to respond to some questions if possible. I want to thank everyone for their support. Please share this with family and friends. Get the word out. I think that a lot of this wisdom shared today can bless a lot of lives and we promise to have other types of relationships on the podcast, including healthy, robust, same sex relationships to make sure that we give lots of perspectives. But we're very glad to have yours today. Wish you all the best and thanks for joining us. Take care of thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories Podcast and Gay Mormon Stories Podcast. To check out the video version of this episode, go to YouTube.com mormonstories to continue the conversation or to keep these podcasts alive through a financial contribution, please check us out@mormonstories.org and gaymormonstories.org and thanks for listening.

Guest [00:59:12] Come, come you sat saints. No toil nor labor fear, but with joy wend your way though hard to you this journey may appear. Grace shall be as your day. Tis better far for us to strive Our useless cares from us to drive to the San Jo your hearts will swell. Oh, all is well, all is well.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.