Introduction and Welcome

Part 1 of 3 · Ep. 754

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the Donate button on the right side of the page under support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support.

Jen Parkinson [00:00:36] The kindly light amid encircling gloom Lead thou me on the night is dark.

John Dehlin [00:00:48] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is June 9, 2017 and I am very excited for today's interview. Today we're interviewing Jen Parkinson and Jen's someone who I recently met because she came and bought a chair from me and got to know her a little bit. But she's got a really cool story. It's one of those epic stories. We're going to try and cover it in about two hours. Maybe we'll go a little bit over, but it's got a lot of cool parts to it. And just so you can know ahead of time what we're going to be covering in this interview, pretty sure Jen was raised devout lds, so we're going to touch on that for a bit. But Jen entered into a mixed orientation marriage, meaning that she married a gay man. And that marriage didn't, didn't work out. And we've never really covered that before. We've never interviewed someone who is in mixed orientation marriage. And so this is going to be, I mean, maybe we have, but this will be kind of the focus of the interview. So. So we're going to talk about that as the first part after the divorce, Jen had some experiences as a divorce, say in the church. So that's going to be part two is kind of what it's like sometimes for divorced single women, or at least Jen's experience as a divorced single woman in the church. That's going to be kind of part two. Part three is when Jen remarried to her current husband. At some point he left his faith. And so Jen's gonna be able to tell her side of the story as the believing wife of someone who leaves the church. And that's something we need to cover more on Mormon stories. And then finally. Jen's in the super close knit family that's really orthodox. And now that she's decided that the church isn't for her and she started to kind of make her own decisions. Just talk about how the dynamics in her family have changed and how she's kind of struggling with that and how she and her family are kind of struggling with that. So that's kind of what we're going to be covering. And really quickly, before we totally jump into it, I guess I'll just make a few really quick announcements. As always, we are hosting several events for Mormon Stories and I just wanted to make sure those of you who are interested know about it. July 7th through 8th, we're going to be in Dallas having a really fun retreat. So if you're interested in that, Please sign up. MormonStories.org events the Dallas retreat's coming soon. August 11th through 12th, I'm really excited to announce Julie de Azevedo Hanks and I. She's a believing, active Mormon. Her dad's Lex de Azevedo, who wrote Saturday's Warrior. Together. We're going to be leading a mixed faith couples retreat, so where one member of the couple is faithful and active, the other is no longer believing. It's going to be a two day retreat specifically focused on that scenario. We're hoping to get at least 20 couples there, so if you're interested in that, please sign up. Slots there's still a few slots available. September 14th and 15th will be in Seattle, Washington. I'm excited about that. October 20th, 22nd, we're going to be at a resort in Sydney, Australia, at the invitation of several Mormon Stories listeners there. They really wanted us to come, so we decided to do it. And then November 9th through 10th, we'll be in the Bay Area in San Francisco, and we're really excited about that. And of course, fall of 2018, October, we'll be doing a cruise to the Bahamas because Mormon Stories listeners have requested it and we want to have some fun there. So those are the announcements. We're in the middle of doing a few podcast series. We're doing one on what we're calling Losing the Lamanites for people who were raised and told that they were Lamanites. And then they learned that, you know, Lamanites didn't exist or they no longer think of themselves as Lamanites. We still maybe have a slaughter to open for someone who fits that description if they've got a really good story. And we're also doing a series on people who are in the middle way trying to make Mormonism work as semi believers, as, you know, unorthodox, unorthoprax members. So we're kind of in the middle of that series as well. We've got some other series going on, but if you're interested in appearing on Mormon Stories, please just email us@mormonstoriesmail.com and we'd love to consider you for the podcast. So enough with the announcements. Without any further ado, I want to welcome Jen Parkinson. Jen, welcome to Mormon Stories.

Jen Parkinson [00:05:42] Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

John Dehlin [00:05:45] Anything I got wrong in the introduction?

Jen Parkinson [00:05:48] No, I think you were spot on.

Jen's Mormon Upbringing and Early Faith

John Dehlin [00:05:52] All right, so let's just start talking about your upbringing in the church a little bit. To what extent was it a traditional or a non traditional Mormon upbringing?

Jen Parkinson [00:06:01] I grew up in a completely orthodox home. I was the bishop's kid. Very active in the church. My family was very, very active. Early morning seminary, 100% attender at 5:55 in the morning.

John Dehlin [00:06:17] Oh, so it wasn't in Utah with release time?

Jen Parkinson [00:06:20] No, I grew up in California, and so it was early morning seminary and I went every, every single morning. I went to EFY every summer. I was very, very, very active.

John Dehlin [00:06:36] How many siblings?

Jen Parkinson [00:06:37] I have three siblings. I have two older sisters and a younger brother. Okay, so there's four of us.

John Dehlin [00:06:44] And your dad was bishop during the time you were growing up?

Jen Parkinson [00:06:48] Yeah, he was bishop. He got called to be a bishop very early. I think he was in his late 20s the first time.

John Dehlin [00:06:54] Oh my goodness.

Jen Parkinson [00:06:55] Yeah, very early. And then all through my high school years, he was the bishop and then he was in the stake presidency when I left for college, I think I'm pretty sure he was. Went to Rick's college.

John Dehlin [00:07:09] Okay, that's before it was byu, Idaho.

Jen Parkinson [00:07:13] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:15] How'd you like Rexburg?

Jen Parkinson [00:07:18] I actually really liked it. I was surprised. I didn't know anyone that had attended really before I did. And I remember my parents driving me to Rexburg thinking, what have I done? I'm in this tiny, dinky town. But I had two fantastic years at Ricks College. I loved it. I loved it.

John Dehlin [00:07:40] Any stories to kind of exemplify how devout your family was in the church? Or was it just, you know, like family home evening, scripture study, all that stuff?

Jen Parkinson [00:07:49] Yeah, we had family home evening. My dad traveled a lot, so my mom carried the burden a lot of having regular family home evening. But we, we had regular family home evening, scripture study in the morning, family prayer. In order to drive the car, you had to be caught up in your young women personal progress. So unless I was meeting my goals with personal progress, I couldn't drive. Extremely devout lds. Oh, sorry. Go Ahead.

John Dehlin [00:08:21] No, go ahead.

Jen Parkinson [00:08:22] No, I just. Really happy kid. I just was really obedient.

John Dehlin [00:08:28] So you weren't rebellious at all?

Jen Parkinson [00:08:29] No, I know. In fact, my mom and dad said that by nature, I just followed the rules. You told me to do something, I just did it. I didn't argue. I just was very, very obedient.

John Dehlin [00:08:41] Did you. Did you feel as a teenager that you had a testimony?

Jen Parkinson [00:08:45] Yeah. I don't remember having any sort of divine revelation telling me that the church was true, but I definitely had a testimony. I was that kid that would get up several times in the year and share my testimony. I loved efy. I thought it was so fun to be around other LDS youth who seemed just really like good, good kids, because I only had a handful of friends that were LDS growing up. I didn't grow up. I didn't grow up with a lot of LDS members around. And all my friends in high school knew I was a member of the church and would expect nothing less than for me to be. I didn't swear I didn't. They would invite me to parties knowing I would say no, but they wanted me to know I was included. I had a ton of friends, but not really a ton of LDS friends. So.

John Dehlin [00:09:42] Okay. And did you experience any guilt or shame as a teen, or were you just living so righteously you didn't even have to experience any of that stuff?

Jen Parkinson [00:09:54] I can think of one experience I had when I was a junior in high school and I was dating a boy. And I remember feeling guilty that I had kissed him and thinking, I shouldn't be doing this. And so I broke up with him because I was afraid that, because I enjoyed it, that I thought maybe I'm going to go too far and I better just stop. And so I broke up with him. I really liked him, and I was heartbroken. And then I carried that guilt around for a really long time. Not sure if, at what point do you talk to a bishop? Did I need to talk to a bishop? And my dad was the bishop. And I carried around tons of guilt about this kid until my sophomore year at Ricks College. I went and talked to a bishop. And I mean, we're talking like, three years of just not unsure of whether or not I had committed a serious sin and just about kissing a boy. And my bishop my sophomore year said, I can. You should. You never should have come to talk to me about this. You should have let this go years and years ago. And so I think because I. I was trying to be so obedient, so obedient. To everything that I was being taught that I. I felt so guilty about kissing a boy.

John Dehlin [00:11:19] Wow.

Jen Parkinson [00:11:20] That's the kind of kid I was.

John Dehlin [00:11:21] Okay. That's pretty intense.

Jen Parkinson [00:11:23] Yeah.

Serving a Mission and BYU Years

John Dehlin [00:11:24] All right. So did you end up serving a mission? I think I remember you telling me you did, right?

Jen Parkinson [00:11:30] I did.

John Dehlin [00:11:30] Now that would have been before. It was sort of everyone serve a mission. That would have. It would have been rare for a woman to serve a mission, Right?

Jen Parkinson [00:11:37] Yeah. Actually, when I. When I talked with my parents about serving a mission, I kind of got a weird reaction. Kind of like, ah, you're going to be wasting these years of dating and are you sure that's what you want to do? And it wasn't as. It's not that it wasn't acceptable. It was definitely acceptable, but not as many people went. And I felt old, which is crazy thinking about it now. But so, yeah, it wasn't. I mean, you had to go when you were 21. And so it was a kind of a weird reaction. Just my parents, they were definitely supportive once I got my mission call. But when I was preparing for a mission, I kind of got some mixed. Mixed signals of maybe I should stick around BYU and date more.

John Dehlin [00:12:26] Okay, so what made you go?

Jen Parkinson [00:12:30] I wanted. I was so happy at the time that I wanted to just tell everyone about. About the gospel. I wanted to tell them about families can be forget together forever. And I wanted to just go and share my testimony and really wanted to learn Spanish. I was hoping I would go Spanish speaking. And. And I did. And so I. I just really wanted to go. And so I put in my papers and I went.

John Dehlin [00:12:58] And so where'd you end up going?

Jen Parkinson [00:13:00] I went to New Jersey.

John Dehlin [00:13:02] New Jersey. Spanish speaking?

Jen Parkinson [00:13:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:04] And what was New Jersey like?

Jen Parkinson [00:13:07] It was gorgeous. I remember being in the mtc and there was a sister in the. In our district who. She said she was going to the other mission in New Jersey and said, I want to go and serve in the ghetto. And I said, not me. I want to be where it's safe. I went straight to the ghetto from the mtc, But I loved it. I loved being with the members. I loved speaking Spanish. New Jersey's surprisingly, New Jersey is beautiful. Southern New Jersey is actually really pretty. And I really liked it. I really struggled the latter part of my mission with mental health. I started having some depression and anxiety issues when I'd been out about a year, and I had some health challenges. So it wasn't easy. It was not easy being out there, but I worked hard and I had a good Time.

John Dehlin [00:14:16] So was it because you felt inadequate? What was the depression and anxiety about?

Jen Parkinson [00:14:21] I think it was a lot of things or is it just chemical? Well, I definitely, I still to this day, I'm almost 40 and I still struggle with really, really bad anxiety. It's gotten better recently, which will be part of my story later. But I just never felt like I was meeting up to my potential and the expectations that were set upon me. And I definitely. It's chemical. There are several people in my family that struggle with mental health. I have children with mental health issues. So for our family, it's definitely chemical as well. So something that I've kind of struggled with off and on through my whole adult life.

John Dehlin [00:15:10] I'm so sorry. That's super painful and not fun. Yeah, it sounds like there's the anxiety probably manifests itself in perfectionism. Is that true?

Jen Parkinson [00:15:21] Absolutely. And when you don't live up, I tear myself down. My husband will often tell me, man, you are your worst critic. Give yourself a break. But I put, I've self inflicted a lot of pressure on myself. Membership in the church also, I think puts a lot of pressure to be. To be perfect and comparing. So it's been something that I've struggled with a lot.

John Dehlin [00:15:54] Did on your mission, did you feel inadequate or did you feel a lot of pressure? Is that. Was that part of it?

Jen Parkinson [00:16:00] I did. I got in trouble a lot in the MTC for not having quiet dignity.

John Dehlin [00:16:08] What does that mean?

Jen Parkinson [00:16:09] So the back in the day and like the 90s, there was a late 90s, they gave you a book at the beginning of your, your MTC experience. I was there for eight weeks about locking your heart. So there's a talk about locking your heart from the opposite sex. And then there are. There was this whole thing on having quiet dignity, meaning being. A quiet representative of the savior, being professional being. I don't know how else to describe it.

John Dehlin [00:16:53] Avoiding loud laughter and evil speaking. You know, exactly. Being reverent basically.

Jen Parkinson [00:16:57] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:16:58] And what was your personality like?

Jen Parkinson [00:17:00] I am loud. I'm loud by nature. I talk very loudly. I walk with a very heavy step. I'm a dynamic, passionate individual who's super outgoing and just in love with life. And that communicated across sometimes as not taking my mission seriously. I got told that, that I was having too much fun in the mtc. The elders really liked me because I was really fun. And I don't. I either laugh or I cry and I don't like to cry. So I'd rather just laugh and have a good time through life and I used to get in trouble for that and I felt so guilty because I felt like I needed to squash that part of me and have quiet dignity. And I wasn't living up to that. We were very numbers driven in my mission, and there were times when we were successful and times that we weren't and when we weren't successful, it was so hard because I was used to being successful. I was successful in school. I was successful as an athlete. I was successful with which.

John Dehlin [00:18:13] Which. At which. Which athletic programs.

Jen Parkinson [00:18:16] I. I Swam competitively for 10 years in California, so I. I was a swimmer, so.

John Dehlin [00:18:24] Wow.

Jen Parkinson [00:18:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:26] Okay.

Jen Parkinson [00:18:26] It was just like. It was just kind of. It was just a hard time. It was just a really hard time.

John Dehlin [00:18:31] With swimming, you can kind of influence more probably your success. But in. But in New Jersey, doing missionary work with numbers, pressure is probably harder, right?

Jen Parkinson [00:18:43] It was really hard. And there were areas where we lived with English speaking sisters and we would work the area Spanish speaking. So we had to not only find people that wanted to hear the gospel, but we also had to find people that spoke Spanish because we weren't allowed to teach the English. We had to turn them over to the English speaking sisters or elders. And so there was. It was just. It was hard. It was really hard.

John Dehlin [00:19:08] So did you. Did it. Did it get really serious on your mission? Did you think about coming home early?

Jen Parkinson [00:19:14] Yeah, I got really sick. I have what's called polycystic ovarian syndrome. And I had some problems with that on my mission. And I'd been out about 13 months and I was getting more sick and more sick and more depressed because I couldn't work. And so I actually ended up coming home. I came home early and I was embarrassed.

John Dehlin [00:19:43] That's gotta be awful for someone who's. Who's anxious and perfectionistic.

Jen Parkinson [00:19:47] It was so hard. So if those people are listening and they came home from their missions early, it's okay. I thought my life was over a little bit because I felt like, oh, my gosh. I didn't serve a full mission, but I did. And my stake president when I got home said, you served a faithful mission. I got a medical release actually, so I have a completion certificate. But it was hard because I felt like a huge failure.

John Dehlin [00:20:19] Did the family treat you okay? Did the local ward treat you okay?

Jen Parkinson [00:20:22] Yeah, my parents were awesome. My mom and dad were so good. And my ward at home just. They embraced me. They loved me. They gave me a homecoming. I got to speak in the Spanish branches in the stake, and so I was not shunned in any way. But I most certainly didn't tell anyone when I was at byu. I never told anyone that I came home early. In fact, I didn't even think I would talk about that today, but I was really, really embarrassed. So. So I wouldn't tell anybody when I came home. But my ward knew and they were great.

John Dehlin [00:21:01] Okay, well, at least you weren't shamed and I wasn't. That's good. Okay, so anything, Anything. Did you go back to school after. After your mission?

Jen Parkinson [00:21:12] Yeah, I went to BYU Provo, and. Yep. BYU Provo.

John Dehlin [00:21:16] What years were you there?

Jen Parkinson [00:21:18] 90. Okay. So I went fall of 98 and then I went on my mission in January of 99.

John Dehlin [00:21:24] Okay.

Jen Parkinson [00:21:25] And I came back in fall of 2000 and graduated in December of 2002.

John Dehlin [00:21:29] Okay. All right. And anything interesting or important about your BYU experience as part of your story?

Jen Parkinson [00:21:37] Not really. I mean, I was a student body officer at byu.

John Dehlin [00:21:40] By usa.

Jen Parkinson [00:21:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:42] Yes.

Jen Parkinson [00:21:44] You know what By USA is? Yes.

John Dehlin [00:21:46] Yeah, of course.

Jen Parkinson [00:21:47] Yeah. So I was a student body officer and it was a great experience. I loved byu. I absolutely loved it.

John Dehlin [00:21:54] Okay. Did you meet your first husband there or after?

Jen Parkinson [00:21:57] No, I met him after I graduated in December of 2002 and I had been hired to be an EFY coordinator. I had been an EFY counselor the summer before, and so I was waiting because that started in May and so I graduated in December. So I kind of had a four month window of waiting. So I came to Rexburg because my parents lived in Rexburg at the time. I came to Rexburg and I started working and a girl at my work set me up with her husband's best friend. And that is how I met my ex husband.

John Dehlin [00:22:32] Okay, wow. So if you were. I mean, if we're doing the check boxes here, dad was bishop, Perfect seminary attendance, served a mission as a female when you didn't need to, didn't have to. BYU BYU Student Officer, EFY counselor and coordinator. Like, that's some intense Mormon credentials.

Jen Parkinson [00:22:55] Yeah, my, my LDS resume was strong.

John Dehlin [00:23:00] Okay. All right. Okay. So your husband was gay or is gay or your first husband was gay. So talk about your courtship and what that was like dating someone who you didn't know was gay or if it was just normal.

First Marriage to a Gay Husband

Jen Parkinson [00:23:14] Yeah. So what's interesting is I had no idea. But once we got divorced, lots of people said, oh, I knew the second I met him, but I had no idea. So we met. He was so cute. And we, we went on our first date and I. He was so easy to talk to. And I just I really enjoyed his company. We liked a lot of the same things. We liked chick flicks and shopping and I know looking back, okay, but at the time I didn't know. And he was studying criminology in college and our courtship was lightning fast. We started dating in February, we got engaged in April, and we got married in August.

John Dehlin [00:24:09] Oh my goodness. I mean that's, that's pretty normal for Mormons, right?

Jen Parkinson [00:24:13] Totally the Mormon way. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Super fast. I was 25 when we met.

John Dehlin [00:24:19] That's late.

Jen Parkinson [00:24:19] And yeah, and I was almost 26.

John Dehlin [00:24:21] But you served a mission, so.

Jen Parkinson [00:24:23] Yeah, yeah. So we, I mean, I had some really bad anxiety before we got married. And I had a sister who separated from her now ex husband, but at the time she separated from her husband and I had a complete anxiety attack and said, I don't want to get married. You know, at one point my brother in law promised my sister he would take care of her. And look, now they're getting divorced and I mean, they reconciled after. But I got really scared and he assured me he would always take care of me and would never treat me that way. And even the morning of my wedding I was sick to my stomach. But I knew that I was doing what I was supposed to be doing. I was supposed to get married in the temple, I was supposed to become a mother. These are the things that I was supposed to do. And so I, I took a marriage prep class and I remember reading a talk and I don't remember who gave it, but it was basically the gist was if two people are living righteously, then they can make any marriage work. And I thought, okay, you know, but backing up a little bit. My dad was in the stake presidency@ BYU Idaho at this time when I was engaged. And he had seen a lot of heartbreaking experiences with students and pornography. And he pulled me into his office one day and said, speaking to me about how serious I was getting with my ex husband. And he said, you need to ask him if he has ever had a pornography or masturbation problem. And I thought, I can't ask that, that's none of my business. And he said, no, I feel very strongly that this is really important because you need to know what you're going into. And so I remember being so afraid of having that conversation, but we were out on a date and I remember where we were and I asked him just point blank, have you ever had a pornography or masturbation problem? I have to know. And he said, well, if I have, it's been Taken care of. And so for me, I felt like, well, if he's taking care of it, and he squared it with the Lord, none of my business. And not understanding anything about it, really, I just. Okay, I just accepted that answer and we got married and real quick.

John Dehlin [00:27:15] So dating a gay person who you didn't know was gay, would you have ever known in terms of, like, your affections for each other? You know, kissing or holding hands or that kind of stuff? Was that just all normal?

Jen Parkinson [00:27:32] No, it wasn't. No, it wasn't. And here's the thing. He. He wanted to be very careful while we were dating, so we set up. We set up some rules as far as making sure that we weren't being too affectionate or too physical before we got married. And so he said to me, I'll kiss you good night, but we can't ever. We can't ever make out. We can't ever kiss more than just a quick peck on the lips. And I thought, oh, he's being so righteous. I mean, he wants to take me to the temple. So worthy. And. And so I said that, that, you know, that was fine. And. But that element to our relationship was never there. It was never there.

John Dehlin [00:28:24] Were you. Were you attracted to him? Were you wanting to do more than. I mean, were you wanting to kiss?

Jen Parkinson [00:28:29] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, hey, I'll be candid. I really like to kiss. I think it's fun. It's very different, Mary, to my husband today, but, yeah, I really liked kissing. And he. That was never there. I was very attracted to him. I thought he was very cute. We have beautiful children. He's, you know, he's very. He's very handsome to me. And yes, I did. I wanted that to be there. And even post marriage, that's spark. And that desire to kiss a lot was never there after. Like, there was just not that chemistry. It's hard to describe.

John Dehlin [00:29:12] What do you know about his story prior to marrying you in terms of his own sexuality that you're comfortable sharing?

Jen Parkinson [00:29:18] Yeah, I, you know, I don't. I don't want to share a lot about his story just because it's not my story to share. And the only thing I know about him, as far as that goes, was he only had friends that were girls. All his high school friends were girls. He had a couple of friends that were guys, but the majority of his friends were girls. And I thought that was really weird when we first got married that the friends that he wanted to introduce me to were all girls. But it. I mean, I didn't that's fine. But I don't know. Even. I don't know at what point in his journey he determined that he was gay? I don't. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:30:03] You don't know if he thought of himself as gay when he married you?

Jen Parkinson [00:30:07] I. I don't. I don't.

John Dehlin [00:30:09] Or if he had talked to a bishop about it before marrying you or any of that stuff?

Jen Parkinson [00:30:14] I don't.

John Dehlin [00:30:14] Okay, that's fine.

Jen Parkinson [00:30:15] I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:30:15] That's fine. That's fine.

Jen Parkinson [00:30:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:17] Okay.

Jen Parkinson [00:30:18] I didn't really ask the details once I found out.

John Dehlin [00:30:21] Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Jen Parkinson [00:30:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:22] Okay. So you marry. And then how was it. How was just overall marriage. But then how did that. How did you find out he was gay or how. What was it like before then? Just talk about what it's like being married to a gay guy.

Jen Parkinson [00:30:39] So for you. Yeah. About two months into our marriage, we had. We were not getting along. We didn't. We didn't get along very well, actually, the majority of our marriage. There was one instance where he got really, really angry at me, and he. He threw a remote control at me, and I was really scared, and I went up to our bedroom and I sobbed and thought, I don't. I don't think want to be married anymore. But then I took my temple covenants very, very seriously. And again, remember that quote about if two people are trying to be good people, then they can work it out? And so I just. And I didn't tell anybody about this. I was, you know, I didn't tell anybody about what being married to him was really like. But we fought a lot, and I've got a strong personality, and he's got a strong personality. And so we just. We clashed a lot and then. But we felt like we should start our family. And so we did, because that's what, you know, we're taught to do. And I was older. I was 26. And I was 26 when I got pregnant with my daughter. And I was told on my mission when I was 20 that I would most likely never have children. And so I felt very strongly that.

John Dehlin [00:32:14] Because of the ovarian cyst?

Jen Parkinson [00:32:16] Yeah. Yeah. So a doctor in New Jersey, actually an endocrinologist in New Jersey, told me I would most likely never have kids, which I told that to my ex husband when we were dating, and he said, that's okay. We'll adopt. I mean, so he was really supportive of, you know, if I couldn't have biological children. But I was able to get pregnant. And there was One time when I was pregnant with our daughter that we got in a huge fight and I drove around for hours and decided to stay in a hotel. My family lived in Rexburg. But I was so embarrassed. I didn't want to go and tell them and stay there. So I stayed in a hotel. But I came back because that's what I felt like was the right thing to do. And I had my little girl. And actually he did great. He helped me a ton. He was really, really helpful. Once we had our daughter and he was going to school and I was working full time, and I worked full time even after our baby was born. And it was when our daughter was about four months old, I decided I didn't want to work full time anymore and found a job where I could work from home. And we started managing student housing. Boys, that's important. Boys, student housing. And when our daughter was about 14 months old, I found gay pornography on our home computer. That's. That's what started it.

Discovering Her Husband's Same-Sex Attraction

John Dehlin [00:34:01] So you're into the marriage how many years by this point?

Jen Parkinson [00:34:05] Two and a half.

John Dehlin [00:34:07] Okay, so pretty early.

Jen Parkinson [00:34:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:09] Were there any other signs prior to that time that the things weren't quite right other than the fights at that point?

Jen Parkinson [00:34:18] Not really.

John Dehlin [00:34:19] So intimacy wise, to the extent that you're comfortable sharing it was just kind of what you perceive to be normal?

Jen Parkinson [00:34:25] Yeah, I mean, I had nothing to compare it to. I. I waited until we got married to have sex for the first time. And so I. I mean, I didn't. I didn't know, but I do, I can say that this spark of feeling, like there was a. There was a level that was missing that actually I didn't know was missing until I got remarried. So I didn't know because like I said, I had nothing to compare it to.

John Dehlin [00:34:55] His attraction for you was lower than. Probably would have been normal?

Jen Parkinson [00:35:01] Yeah. And he never told me that I was pretty. He never told me that I looked cute. He never. There was, There was never any of those kind of things. There was never like flirty, that we weren't flirty. And the level of attraction definitely dissipated over the years. But that also I attributed it to the fact that we fought all the time and I'm tired, I'm a working mom. And so I didn't know. I didn't know what it could be like, if that makes sense, until I experienced what it's like to be married to a heterosexual male. And it's very different.

John Dehlin [00:35:53] Yeah. Okay, so you found the gay porn. How did that go?

Jen Parkinson [00:35:57] I was mortified. I called him. He was at work. And I called him and said, you need to come home right now. And he came home and thought. I think he thought that there was something with our daughter. And at this time, he had a relationship with a guy that seemed too close to be friends, but. But he. He didn't admit anything. And. And so. So that that was happening. And then I found this gay pornography. So he came home and I said, what is this? You know, what. What. What is happening? Are you gay? Just tell me the truth. Are you gay? And he said, I don't think so. I don't think so. And so I went in the bathroom. I locked myself in the bathroom. I was sobbing. And he said, you know, if you love me, you'll help me through this. I told him he needed to go right to our bishop, that he needed to go and confess everything to the bishop. So we went. That night we had one of our tenants babysit our daughter. And we went to the bishop. And that night the bishop took away his temple recommend and asked me, you know, what do you think? Do you. Do you want to stay married? But we didn't tell the bishop that it was same sex pornography. We just said it was pornography.

John Dehlin [00:37:28] Why didn't you mention that?

Jen Parkinson [00:37:30] I don't. I was embarrassed. I was embarrassed because we ended up having to go through counseling and we went to LDS Family Services, and we needed someone to babysit our daughter while we went because it was 30 minutes from our house. And I. So I made him go and tell our. Tell my parents because I needed my mom to babysit my daughter, and I couldn't keep up this facade anymore that everything's fine. Oh, we're great. And so I made him tell my mom. But again, we did not tell my mom that it was same sex pornography. We just said it was pornography. Because I felt humiliated. I was humiliated. I was so embarrassed. And so the bishop sent us to LDS Family Services, and the counselor at LDS Family Services said, I'm gonna. I went by myself the first time. And he said, I'm gonna help you figure out if he's gay. So I said, okay. He said, I don't know if I am. I don't know if I am. So the counselor determined that he was not gay, but that he had some dad issues. Because my ex husband kept saying to me, I don't think I'm gay. I'm just attracted to myself. And I didn't really know what that meant. I mean, I was there to support him. I stood by his side. He went to the addiction recovery program that the church has. He went through the 12 step program. And after he completed that, did you

John Dehlin [00:39:14] do that with him?

Jen Parkinson [00:39:15] I didn't at the time. I didn't. But later, after a couple years, we actually both served as missionaries for the addiction recovery program. It became my ex husband's mission to try to save others from pornography.

John Dehlin [00:39:33] Okay.

Jen Parkinson [00:39:34] And so we. We actually became missionaries and at that point, then I participated in the women's group.

John Dehlin [00:39:41] Okay.

Jen Parkinson [00:39:42] That was going through. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:43] After your divorce or before?

Jen Parkinson [00:39:45] It was before. Okay. After our second.

John Dehlin [00:39:47] Let's not. Let's not jump ahead. Okay. So. Okay, so he's going to the 12 step. And I just want to say there are all sorts of problems as a, as someone with the Ph.D. in psychology, with, first of all, associating pornography viewing with addiction. Natasha Alfred Parker and others, Kristin Bennion and others, talk about that in so many ways. It can be very inappropriate to equate pornography viewing with addiction, especially when it's just masturbation and maybe a little bit of pornography, to masturbate once every two or three weeks. There are people who call themselves addicts and who talk about their lives in terms of weeks or months of sobriety as part of these 12 step programs where it just drives that shame so completely in unhealthy ways. I don't want to get off on a tangent, but I just have to make an editorial comment that I've seen a lot of damage done by those programs and maybe they've done some good, but I've seen a lot of damage. Okay, so he's. So your LDS Family Services therapist then tells you that he thinks he's not gay.

Jen Parkinson [00:41:01] Right. He says he's not gay, he's not gay. He's had some unfortunate experiences being raised, and he's looking to himself to fulfill a masculine need that he didn't have as a child.

John Dehlin [00:41:16] Okay. And again, I'm just going to say that's. That is a huge red flag for somebody who studied the literature on being LGBT and mixed faith marriages, this association with how you're raised and same sex attraction. My understanding is there's actually negative evidence for that correlation. A lot of people want to say that. And this comes out of North Star and what Ty Mansfield teaches and others, that somehow someone is gay sometimes because they didn't have the right relationship with their father or their mother. They didn't learn the right roles of masculinity and femininity and their identity. And so that develops in them same sex attraction. And my Understanding is there's negative evidence for that association, but that's what your LDS Family Services.

Jen Parkinson [00:42:11] Yeah. And if you think back to 10, 11 years ago, we didn't talk as much about LGBT. Right. I mean, we didn't. It was kind of like a taboo subject. And I will, with full disclosure, say that I was very close minded and didn't know a lot about it. And now I'm a much more well versed human being to how I feel about the LGBT community. And I had my mind opened a lot and my heart softened and opened through this whole process. But you know, 11 years ago you just, you didn't talk about it. And so. Yeah, so I mean, that's what the counselor determined and I thought, okay, if that's okay, you know, what was the cure?

John Dehlin [00:43:04] Do you recommend a cure?

Jen Parkinson [00:43:07] Scripture reading, praying, us going on dates, strengthening our marriage.

John Dehlin [00:43:13] Okay, how'd that work? So how'd that work?

Jen Parkinson [00:43:16] Well, it worked for a little bit.

John Dehlin [00:43:18] How long?

Jen Parkinson [00:43:20] I got pregnant with our second baby. And honestly, looking back when I had my son, we were happy. I felt like we were healthy and happy. We were in a good place. And I attributed it to my ex husband working really hard to overcome this addiction. That's what I attributed our happiness to in looking backwards. And that quickly faded.

John Dehlin [00:43:49] How many years was it good then?

Jen Parkinson [00:43:53] About, let's see, about a year.

John Dehlin [00:43:58] Okay. All right. So he was able to pull it together for a year. And then what happened?

Jen Parkinson [00:44:04] And then I just, I started feeling like he was getting even more and more distant from me and he was getting closer and closer with men in his life. And at this point in my life, I was very involved in exercise, tanning, working out with my friends, girls night. And so he would come home from work and I would leave. And so we were, we were not spending much time together. It was just a really sad time. And we got further and further grown apart. It was almost like we were roommates. It was kind of a weird time. And he got particularly close with one individual and I told him I was very uncomfortable with the level of time he was spending with this gentleman. And, and, and he got very defensive. And I thought, though, I thought the way to fix our marriage is to have another baby. I don't know why I thought that. I don't, I don't know what, I don't know what I was thinking. However, I can't imagine not having my little, my little boy.

John Dehlin [00:45:28] This is a third, A third child, A third baby.

Jen Parkinson [00:45:31] Yeah. But, but he saved my life through my divorce and that Little boy was. Was truly a blessing. But at the time, I thought that was gonna fix my marriage. So I got pregnant with my third baby and with. So I had lots of miscarriages and I had lots of really scary pregnancies, and I was very high risk. And so with my third baby, I had two other kids. We were still managing apartments and I was on full bed rest. And this was months before my baby was due. I was on full bed rest and my ex husband was spending more time with this person, this man, than he was spending at home. And I, I really needed his help. I, you know, I have these babies I was trying to take care of, and it caused a lot of contention because he wasn't there and I needed him to be there. And so.

John Dehlin [00:46:35] And because of the gay porn, did you suspect, was it like, wait a minute, you're getting really close with men?

Jen Parkinson [00:46:41] Yes. And I asked him, I asked him, are you looking at pornography again? Because I could almost tell over the seven years that we were married, we were married almost eight. Over those years, he would start treating me differently and he would be more standoffish and mean. He would be mean to me when he was viewing pornography. And so at this time, this was months before our son was born, I asked him again and confronted him again, are you looking at pornography? Are you? And this gentleman, is there something I need to be concerned about? Because I don't feel comfortable. And years before, he had gone on a trip with a guy to New York City. And I thought it was just two friends. And come to find out later, he was living a double life, basically. And. I got more sick and more sick. And our baby, I ended up in the hospital for days and preterm labor. I mean, it was like a really scary pregnancy. And I delivered our baby. And then he. Our baby was immediately life flighted to a trauma hospital about 30 miles away. And I had had a C section. So I was. My mom took my other two kids and I had to stay in the hospital because I couldn't. I couldn't leave. I couldn't go be with my baby. And my ex husband never came to the hospital. I was alone for days in the hospital and I knew my mom couldn't come because she was tending my other two kids and I was totally left by myself. And it was a rough, really, really rough time. And as you can imagine, I was very hurt.

John Dehlin [00:48:45] And was your family ever like, where's your husband?

Jen Parkinson [00:48:49] No one ever asked. No one ever asked. Actually, we don't. We don't in My family, we don't talk a lot about really hard things, just kind of how I grew up. But no one, no, no one ever asked where he was. I had some friends come visit me in the hospital and those were my visitors. And then when I got released from the hospital, I went down and stayed in Idaho Falls, 30 miles away so that I could be with my baby. And just. Yeah, I, I got home from the hospital with him and then 12 hours later we had to take him back to the emergency room because he was having a hard time breathing. And then they put him on a ventilator and flew him to Primary Children's Hospital. And then my, my wonderful sister took my two kids out of state. My ex husband drove her and met her halfway. She kept my kids until I could return home. And then my ex husband went home and I was left alone at Primary Children's for weeks while he came home. And then I brought my baby home with. He was on oxygen, he had a heart murmur. He has a congenital insufficiency. I mean, just the list was going on and on of this really, really ill child I was bringing home and I was terrified. And then my baby had been home three weeks and we got a phone call that made us lose our housing. I lost my on site job because of inappropriate behavior that my ex husband had with a tenant.

John Dehlin [00:50:43] Oh, so maybe some sort of male to male relationship?

Jen Parkinson [00:50:49] Yeah, I, I didn't ask for a lot of the details because I didn't want to know them. And to this day I only know, I know a little bit of what happened, but I don't know the extent. And I, My attorney knows more than I do. He knows more than I do. But I.

John Dehlin [00:51:08] Would this have been a, would this have been a BYU, ID student or Rick? Okay. Okay.

Jen Parkinson [00:51:13] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:51:14] Okay. So that. Was that the first time you received information that your husband had been possibly intimate with another man then?

Divorce and Its Aftermath

Jen Parkinson [00:51:23] Yeah, I had no, I had no idea. I, at that. This was the first that I had a real confirmation, I guess, that, that he, he was gay. And then I.

John Dehlin [00:51:40] And how many years in your marriage was this?

Jen Parkinson [00:51:43] This was almost seven.

John Dehlin [00:51:45] So this is right before the divorce then.

Jen Parkinson [00:51:46] So it was the year before. Okay, it was the year before.

John Dehlin [00:51:50] And how was that, what was that like for you to hear that? And how did he explain it or talk about it?

Jen Parkinson [00:51:59] He, he tried to make excuses for it, for what, what he had done. He tried to, he tried to say that it was innocent. He tried to. He wasn't very forthcoming. And so I told him that I was gonna take our children, and I was gonna move to my parents because I had to move immediately. A house that I'd been living in for five years. I had to. I mean, literally had to pack up my stuff and move because we got. We lost our ecclesiastical endorsement. And so I was told by the owner of the complex that I had to get out. And they were heartbroken. My owner was incredible to me and allowed me to work off site, but I couldn't stay on and be a single woman. You can't do that. And so I took our three kids, and as I was packing up our home, I was packing with the intent that we were going to get divorced right then. And so I was packing a box for my ex husband, a box for me, a box for my ex husband. And then my dad was a stake president at the time. And so I went to go visit with my dad, and I told him that it was true that my ex husband had done this. And my dad is one of the smartest men I've ever, ever been around. He's one of my true heroes. And I respect my dad so much that any and every advice that my dad would give me, I would listen to. And he said, I think you should give him one more chance.

John Dehlin [00:53:54] Ouch.

Jen Parkinson [00:53:55] And I thought, okay. Are you serious?

John Dehlin [00:53:59] And he knew that your husband had been involved in a gay relationship?

Jen Parkinson [00:54:05] Yes, yes and yes. And looking back, my dad was wise in saying, you need to make sure that you have done everything that you possibly can to try and keep your marriage intact so that in the event that it doesn't work, you can go away with a clear conscience. And so I did. I about. We were separated for about eight weeks, and I told him he could come back to my parents, but that he could sleep on the couch. I invited him back, but that I didn't. I didn't want him to touch me. I didn't want him to even hug me. I didn't want him to. To be affectionate with me at all. Not at all.

John Dehlin [00:54:53] Because he had cheated on you?

Jen Parkinson [00:54:55] Yeah. And then there was another counselor who specializes in same sex attraction that happened to be in our ward. So we were then referred to him. And this gentleman said, give me three months, and in three months time, I can tell you if he's actually gay. Okay. And so for three months, we went to counseling again, and he said, I don't think he's gay.

John Dehlin [00:55:30] Oh, my gosh.

Jen Parkinson [00:55:32] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:55:34] Three months for a false negative?

Jen Parkinson [00:55:38] Yeah. He said, I don't think he is. And in the Meantime, I was more and more falling less in love. I don't know what the right terminology is, but I. I was very disenchanted in my marriage, I guess you could say. I just. I didn't feel like I was in a good place. I didn't feel like we were in a good place. I was very, very unhappy. And so I was trying to search for something to make myself happy. So I started cosmetology school, and I did something for me, and it was amazing. But we found out during this time that our middle child had some severe health problems and needed to have a colostomy bag placed at Primary Children's. So we took our middle son.

John Dehlin [00:56:38] Can I just say, that is so much stress for one person. I mean, being in an unhappy marriage, having three kids young, having one with severe physical, you know, challenges, then the infidelities, then the second one with serious medical problems.

Jen Parkinson [00:56:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:00] And losing your housing, like that's enough to break somebody.

Jen Parkinson [00:57:04] Yeah. I. So I'll tell you, at this point in my life, my depression was in full swing, full swing, bad, bad, bad, bad. And I.

John Dehlin [00:57:16] And none of this is your fault, right? You didn't know he was gay. You know, you didn't. You're told.

Jen Parkinson [00:57:23] It was really hard for me. I was being. Yeah. So we take our son to Primary Children's to have this surgery, and I was terrified. If anyone knows me, they know that I don't do blood. I don't do throw up. I don't do. I just. I can't do that. And so this was really scary. And they had us learning how to take care of our son. And my ex husband and I got in a fight at the hospital. I mean, we were under so much stress, and we got in a fight, and he left me at the hospital to learn how to take care of my son by myself. And I was not okay with that. And it put a very big strain on our marriage. I felt like he wasn't there when I needed him. And we got home from that experience, and my husband was forced. My ex husband was forced to resign from his job. And I won't go into the details of that, but he. He lost his job. After we have this infant who is chronically ill, and now this little boy who has colostomy supplies that are $1,000 a month, and now we don't have health insurance. And I got very upset. And that was kind of. He. He didn't tell me the truth about the circumstances for being forced to resign. And there's a lot to that story. But basically it was the straw that broke the camel's back and I had had enough. And I felt like I can't do this anymore. This isn't the way that the Lord would expect a daughter of God to live. And I told him that I wanted a divorce. And so it had been about probably eight months since that initial finding out that there had been an inappropriate relationship with a student to the point where I actually filed for divorce. And then it took another five months for the divorce to be finalized.

John Dehlin [00:59:38] So you try, you gave him a third try like your dad suggested, but it didn't work out.

Jen Parkinson [00:59:43] So, yeah, I mean, I. But I could say when I filed for divorce that I had done everything that I possibly could to try to salvage this eternal family. And no, I was not a perfect spouse. I don't want to pretend like I didn't fight back or that I didn't cause arguments. I mean, I. I was not a perfect spouse, but I felt like the reasons for our family falling apart were not my own.

John Dehlin [01:00:11] Sure. Yeah, sure. How could it be? How could that be your fault? Right. And no one's perfect in a marriage either. But still. Okay, so up through the divorce, was there ever like him coming clean, admitting, apologizing? Was there any of that?

Jen Parkinson [01:00:33] So here's. That's an interesting question, actually. He never apologized to me and still to this day has not apologized. But he apologized to my mom. He went into my mom one night, she was in her room and they had a chair in their bedroom and he came into my parents bedroom. I found out about this later and hung his head in this chair and sobbed and told my mom how sorry he was, but I never heard an apology.

John Dehlin [01:01:08] How do you explain that? That he wouldn't apologize to you?

Jen Parkinson [01:01:13] I don't know. I don't know what the motives were for apologizing to my mom and not apologizing to me. I don't know. I don't know if there was just so much hurt. We are both hurting so badly. And I don't want to underplay his hurt because I know that he was hurting terribly. No, he wasn't even living at the point, being authentic to himself. I don't think he thought he could. And so he was hurting and I was hurting and.

John Dehlin [01:01:48] But no, up to the divorce, he never said, I'm gay and I'm. This is really hard.

Jen Parkinson [01:01:53] No, not. Nope. I filed for divorce and speculated and thought, but he never said at that point he hadn't said it yet.

John Dehlin [01:02:00] Okay, maybe he still didn't want to accept it. Maybe had, you know, internalized homo. Homophobia. Homo negativity.

Jen Parkinson [01:02:08] Yeah, it's totally possible.

John Dehlin [01:02:10] Yeah. Okay, so you got divorced and that's not the life you signed up for, right?

Jen Parkinson [01:02:18] No. I mean, you don't get married to get divorced. It's not what you're taught growing up, you know, and when you. Well, at least for me, I'm guessing they still do this, but in young women's, you make this list. And it's this laundry list of all these characteristics and traits you expect to have, and it doesn't turn out that way. The white picket fence. And I did it all right. You know, I got married in the temple. I married a returned missionary. I'm a returned missionary. I did everything that I was supposed to do according to what I thought I'd been taught, and it still crumbled and fell, even though I tried. I attended the temple regularly. I can't even tell you how many times I went and cried in the Celestial room, praying that I could save my family, and I couldn't.

John Dehlin [01:03:17] That must have been super. I mean, just devastatingly difficult time.

Jen Parkinson [01:03:21] It was awful. It was a time in my life that I look back and think, how in the world did I survive? And I had my kids to get up to, and if I didn't have my kids, I don't know how I could have survived. Especially my baby, because he was still nursing and I had to feed him. And so I had to get out of bed to feed. Feed my baby. And that literally saved my life.

Reflections on Mixed-Orientation Marriage

John Dehlin [01:03:49] How was your family as a support system during this time?

Jen Parkinson [01:03:52] Oh, my gosh. My parents were incredible. I could not have survived my divorce, my losing of my housing without my mom and dad. I moved immediately in there. I actually lived with them until I got remarried. And I was. Like I mentioned previously, I was going to cosmetology school and I was going to night school. So 5pm to 10pm So I would be home with my kids all day, and then my mom and dad would feed my kids dinner, bathe them, and put them in bed so that I could finish school. So, I mean, my parents were like, they were the biggest support system and they just. They were so good. So good.

John Dehlin [01:04:35] Did your dad apologize for telling you to stay with your ex husband or. Or was it just like. Well, he was glad that you gave it all you could.

Jen Parkinson [01:04:43] Yeah, I think he was glad that he. That I gave it all I could, and I think I am, too, To give him another chance.

John Dehlin [01:04:55] Sorry you broke up for a second can you say that again? You said I was too.

Jen Parkinson [01:04:59] Oh, yeah. I never regretted giving him that other chance because so confident at the end that I'd done everything I could and so I don't regret it. And I know my dad never apologized.

John Dehlin [01:05:19] Okay. No, that's fine. It's reasonable to say give your marriage all you can.

Jen Parkinson [01:05:23] I mean.

John Dehlin [01:05:24] Yeah, especially when there's kids involved.

Jen Parkinson [01:05:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:28] Okay. So anything else about being married to a gay man that's kind of worth talking about. I mean, the church, still, the LDS Church no longer, you know, for many, many, many decades, you know, the LDS Church encouraged mixed orientation marriages. They. They told gay men not to tell their wives that they were gay to go ahead and get married. They were promised that it would go away if they got married. And people were just told that this can be fixed if your wife is sexy enough. And once you guys have heterosex and kids, that'll fix it. And that became a disaster for thousands and thousands and thousands of Mormon couples. Our study on mixed orientation marriages for my dissertation showed anywhere between 60 and 80% divorce rates, depending on which study you looked at, and super low quality of life ratings, akin to having lupus in terms of the poor quality of life. And that's just for the gay person, not to mention the straight person who's married to the gay person. I'm sure things weren't lovely for you either. Right? So. So for many, many decades, the church encouraged that. Lately they don't explicitly encourage it, but they implicitly encourage it because they parade Ty Mansfield and others like him on the COVID of magazines and they support North Star. And North Star is very much explicitly pro mixed orientation marriage. And that's. The church really has. There's only three options for a gay person, Right? It's celibacy, mixed orientation marriage if they're Mormon, or excommunication. There's no. I'm unaware of any other option that's viable within the church because you certainly can't have gay boyfriends and gay sex and be active Mormon. So the church has no choice but to continue indirectly supporting celibacy and mixed orientation marriages. Do you have any final experiences or reflections or recommendations if somebody is considering a mixed orientation marriage, what would you say?

Jen Parkinson [01:07:52] So I thought a lot about that. I don't know in my ex husband's mind, I don't know if he thought being married to me would fix him or I was almost like a ruse. I'm married to a woman, we have children. I don't know because that's his Story. But for me, after we got divorced, I felt used and I felt like my life had been a lie. But if someone wants to go into a mixed orientation marriage, I would say, please do so in full disclosure. In honesty. I read a blog right after I got divorced about a gentleman who is gay and a woman who married him.

John Dehlin [01:08:51] That's probably Josh and Lolly Weed.

Jen Parkinson [01:08:53] Okay, it probably is. And that she knew. Right. Going into it and that she agreed to that and that she felt like as long as he still thought I was attractive, then that was fine. I would say if that works for you, then I'm all about what works for you. You do you, you be the best you, but please be honest. And I don't know if my poor ex husband was able to be honest with himself. I mean, I don't know what demon he felt like he was fighting throughout our whole marriage, but I have become so much more compassionate. And in thinking about, I have a gay friend whose mom keeps saying to him, just marry a woman. It'll be fine. You don't need to tell her. And he said, I would never do that to a woman because I know who I am and I know that I'm gay. And so, I mean, if it can work for you, then great for me. I felt like I was living a lie and it was very, very painful.

John Dehlin [01:10:03] And if somebody, what if someone were to hear you and go, oh, I'm okay, because he told me before we got married, would you still have any hesitation even if the, Even if the gay person was up front?

Jen Parkinson [01:10:17] Yeah. I mean, there's a level of intimacy that I have in my marriage now. And I'm not even talking sexual. I'm talking emotional. Yeah, an emotional connection. There's definitely physical connection. My husband is a very good looking man. But it goes so much more beyond that, that I think you know a lot of people. I was listening to one of your podcasts, I can't remember who was on there, talking about, you know, we have this idea that I want to marry my best friend, but that it's not always right to marry your best friend. And so, I mean, if you're. If your potential spouse is your best friend and you know that they're gay, Marriage is so hard. It is hard work. My mom always told me it's hard work, but it's good work. There's just so many facets to marriage that if you, if you. It takes more than a friendship to make a marriage work, in my opinion. And so I would say go in, but go in with your eyes wide open. No, know you can't know what it's like to live with someone or be married to someone until you're married to them. But just go in and be really careful, be very careful and try and be as honest as possible.

John Dehlin [01:11:39] Okay? But you, you know, and I can just, when I hear you talk about you exercising and you guys living kind of a double life and kind of contractual marriage where you're kind of living separate lives, to me that's all symptoms of a lack of emotional intimacy. And even his anger, even his anger doesn't necessarily mean he's a bad angry guy. But if you're, if you're living with someone who should be your soulmate, who's meeting your emotional needs, but instead there's someone you're not really emotionally or even just friendship or intimacy wise attracted to, that can build up a lot of resentment because you're, you know, it can almost make you feel more lonely. Because I'm married, I should be fulfilled. And instead you're possibly not fulfilled and sometimes even repulsed. There's, there's sometimes even aversion, either emotionally or sexually with the person who's supposed to be your primary source of fulfillment. And that can generate hostility and resentment and it can push you to live separate lives. And so that makes total sense to me. Does that sound like a possibility for you guys?

Jen Parkinson [01:12:54] Totally. 100%. 100% that you just described my entire marriage to my ex husband. There just was not that connection there and that support there. And, and we get along great now, we co parent great. But as spouses, we were toxic together. There just wasn't that foundation that you want to have in a strong, healthy marriage. It wasn't there.

John Dehlin [01:13:25] Got it. Okay. Well this, let's just say this concludes the first part of our interview. We're going to kind of break it up in segments. So what I'll do is I'll just. This first segment will be about the mixed orientation marriage. And I'll just say for those of you who are considering it, just beware. There's somewhere like between a one half and a two thirds likelihood. Somewhere between a half and a three fourths, 50 to 75% chance that this marriage will end in divorce. Very, very low quality of life ratings. Some people do it. And if you can do it and make it happy, that's a personal choice. But anybody who sells or encourages mixed orientation marriages or promotes it either directly or indirectly, who doesn't warn people about the emotional risks, the sexual risks, the physical risks, the risks to infidelity and the risks to basic health and happiness. I think they're being irresponsible and I think mixed orientation marriage should have a big red label saying warning, mixed orientation marriages can be very hazardous to your mental health and your well being and to the cohesiveness of your family. That's my editorial perspective on that. Do you have anything you want to add just in closing as we wrap up this segment?

Jen Parkinson [01:14:50] Yeah, no, I totally agree. Mental health, especially just being aware of it. I totally red flag. But if you, I mean, if that's what you think is right. But all of those things are things that you need to really, really consider.

John Dehlin [01:15:07] All right, Jen, well, thanks so much for telling us this part of the story. We'll go ahead and close this segment and thank our listeners for tuning in. If listeners have any comments or questions or feedback, we'd love you to share it on MormonStoriesMail.com or if you're on YouTube or Facebook, you can share it there as well. We want to encourage if anybody else has stories about a mixed faith marriage. If somebody's in a mixed faith, sorry, a mixed orientation marriage. And they think it's amazing and wonderful. I'd love to do that interview as well, potentially. So reach out to us. And again, as we always do, we just want to thank our Mormon Stories listeners for their support. If you donate to Mormon Stories or the Open Stories foundation, those donations are what makes all this possible. So if you support us, thank you for keeping this alive. If you don't, please consider donation because it's how we survive in the U.S. your donations are tax deductible and they go towards supporting the foundation, its mission. And we're transparent in our finances and we'd love your support. So with that, Jen, thank you for part one of your story. We're going to come back and talk about being a divorced mom, single mom in the church. We're going to talk about your remarriage. We're going to talk about your second husband losing his faith, how you reacted. And then we're going to talk about how things have changed with your immediate family since you experienced your own faith crisis and kind of what that's like. So stay tuned, everybody. And Jen, thanks again for coming on Mormon Stories.

Jen Parkinson [01:16:42] Of course. Thanks for having me.

John Dehlin [01:16:44] All right, we'll see you guys in part two. So stay tuned. Thanks, everybody. Thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org music for this episode was provided by the lower lights and other sources.

Jen Parkinson [01:17:08] Cease to make me more when with the wounded heart, anger or malice

John Dehlin [01:17:27] I

Jen Parkinson [01:17:28] draw myself apart, searching my soul.

Life as a Divorced Single Mormon Mother

Part 2 of 3 · Ep. 755

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the donate button on the right side of the page under support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support.

Jen Parkinson [00:00:36] The kindly light amid encircling gloom Lead thou me on the night is dark and I am.

John Dehlin [00:00:49] Hello everyone, and welcome back to part two of my interview with Jen Parkinson. It's been a really fascinating interview so far. I'm so grateful that Jen's willing to tell her story. It's June 9, 2017, broadcasting to you from a recording from our new home in Salt Lake City. We're really thrilled to be here. Part one of our new video. Jen talked about her upbringing as a very devout, scrupulous Mormon woman in California. Dad was bishop and eventually Sikh Presidency member. Perfect seminary attendance, served a mission back before women were strongly encouraged to serve missions. Byu, BYU sa, EFY counselor, EFY administrator, all that stuff. Married in the temple. And then life started falling apart when she found out that her husband was looking at gay porn. And eventually she found out that her husband was gay. She had three children with this husband. It ended up in divorce after seven years of marriage and lots of difficult times. And, you know, for those who are considering a mixed orientation marriage, for those who, you know, care about the issue, it's a really crucial episode to listen to. So, Jen, we want to welcome you back to Mormon Stories and thank you for part one of your interview.

Jen Parkinson [00:02:17] Sure. Thanks for having me.

John Dehlin [00:02:19] All right. So what's it like to be a divorced, single Mormon mom? Was it awesome? It sounds like your parents were amazing supports through it all. You said that you had some things to say about what it's like to be divorced in the church. And you can say good or bad things, but is that the next theme of our interview?

Jen Parkinson [00:02:41] Yeah. You know, no one gets married to get divorced. And it's not at all what I had planned. And it's not a subject that we. That we talked about a lot as members of the church. I felt like when I was going through my divorce, I didn't know who to turn to to ask advice about custody and paperwork and attorneys and anything like that because I didn't know anybody that had gotten divorced. I felt like a pioneer of Divorce in my area. And I didn't know where to go because no one, I didn't feel like anyone could help me because no one could understand. And so I.

John Dehlin [00:03:27] Can I just ask you a question really quick?

Jen Parkinson [00:03:28] Yeah, of course.

John Dehlin [00:03:29] So you, you had this sort of high anxiety, perfectionistic attitude. You had the blow of returning home early from your mission, then you add this blow of marrying a gay man accidentally and then having divorce. What is this doing to your mental health and your own ego, your own psyche to be failing when you're trying, when you are wired for perfectionism and when you feel like you're really living the gospel and trying so hard? So take us back to your psyche and your ego in, you know, seven years after your marriage.

Jen Parkinson [00:04:10] It was a bad time. It was a bad, bad time. I went to a doctor for medication because, I mean, I felt like a failure. I felt like a complete failure, especially in what I'd been taught was right and what I'd been taught was my journey on earth. I felt like I was failing my children. I felt like I was. I felt, I can't even describe all the failures I was feeling, except for I felt like I was almost putting my children's eternal salvation in jeopardy because I had broken the sealing power of getting divorced and what would happen to my children. And so I felt like I had to be even more righteous because I was worried that I was going to somehow damn them because I had. We were a broken family now. We were, we were broken. We were all broken. I broke myself, I broke my ex husband, I broke my three children, I broke my parents, I broke every. I broke everybody around me is what I felt. And I had so much pressure, pressure on myself. And I was a mess mentally, I was a mess.

John Dehlin [00:05:34] And what, like, if you can talk a bit about the symptoms of the depression and the anxiety, what, sleeping a lot, you know, what were some of the symptoms?

Jen Parkinson [00:05:42] Yeah, so.

John Dehlin [00:05:45] And whatever you're comfortable talking about.

Jen Parkinson [00:05:47] Oh, you know what? I think that mental health, we don't talk a lot about it and I think we get embarrassed of it. But I want everybody to know that if you have mental health struggles, it's not your fault. It's like a diabetic needing insulin, right. There's synapses in your brains that they don't go together. You don't produce the right amount of chemicals. It's not your fault. And mental health is very real. And my bachelor's degree is in psychology. And so I studied all kinds of abnormal psychology. And so just know that Mental health is something that more people struggle with than, you know. And I'm fine talking about it. I'm actually in a very good place right now. So I. At that point, I. I mean, I'm glad I was in cosmetology school or I don't think I would have showered. I don't think I would have. I would probably would have been in sweatpants all day. I wanted to just stay in bed. I wanted to sleep. I didn't want to do anything. I didn't want to go anywhere. I literally just wanted to stay in bed. But like I mentioned previously, I had a nursing infant. And so because I was breastfeeding him, I had to get up. And so I. I got out of bed because of my kids. There was one day where my mom found me on the bathroom floor. I wasn't suicidal, but I just wanted to lay on the bathroom floor. I just wanted to lay and cry. I didn't want to get up. And I mean, she helped me up and I went to a doctor and I got some medication. I was regularly taking Xanax at the time.

John Dehlin [00:07:35] That's anti anxiety, right?

Jen Parkinson [00:07:36] Anti anxiety. And it basically would just knock me out. My heart would palpitate, I would have racing thoughts. I couldn't sleep even though I would try to sleep. I couldn't sleep even though that's all I wanted to do. And then I just kept thinking, you're a loser. You're in bed, you're a loser, you're not getting up, you're a loser. You're not reading your scriptures, you're a loser. You're not doing what you're supposed to be doing. And I had a bishop tell over the pulpit once. I had really bad postpartum depression after my first baby. And this bishop stood up from the pulpit and said, if you're struggling with depression and mental health, shame on you. Repent. Your relationship with the Savior is not good enough. And you're not reading your scriptures enough, and you're not doing enough to have a testimony of the Gospel. And so that replayed in my head again as I was trying to cope and trying to, I don't know, just survive. I was definitely in survival mode. And it was rough. It was really, really rough.

Being Divorced in the Church Community

John Dehlin [00:08:52] Okay, so anything else you. So what was it like? You had mentioned the topic of wanting to talk about being a divorced person in the church. What was that like, church wise? Are there any stories or things that you experienced that you would want? Let's just say bishops or church leaders were listening and Thinking, how do we make the church better, safer for divorced people? Talk about your stories or experiences or even issues that you would want people to know about or be aware of to help, you know, people deal better with that.

Jen Parkinson [00:09:35] When I was getting divorced and leaving my home originally, I had a Relief Society president come over to my house, and instead of just trying to be supportive and let me know that she was there, she pushed, pushed and wanted to know the intimate details of why I was divorced, which, number one, I couldn't talk about for years. Actually, I couldn't share the details of my divorce for years.

John Dehlin [00:10:11] You didn't tell people the divorce is because your ex husband was gay?

Jen Parkinson [00:10:14] No, no, I didn't tell anyone.

John Dehlin [00:10:16] So everybody's wondering, was there an infidelity?

Jen Parkinson [00:10:20] Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So everyone's wondering what? You know, why is this? Because from the outside, we looked like we were great. I mean, I was in the Relief Society presidency. We looked like we were the good family. We were there every Sunday. And so it was a shock, but she was so pushy, and I finally had to say, it is none of your business. Please, please. I had a friend there helping me pack, and she had to ask the Relief Society president to leave because she was so forceful and.

John Dehlin [00:10:57] Friend asked the Relief Society president to leave. She was trying to get the details.

Jen Parkinson [00:11:02] Yes. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:04] Yeah. So that's lesson number one is it's none of your business. It is if somebody's divorced. It's none of your business. Why?

Jen Parkinson [00:11:11] None of your business. It is nobody's business but the person going through it and who they choose to share their story with. And at this point in my life, I didn't want to share my story with anyone. And so that was so hard because I don't know if it was curiosity, I don't know why, but she was so forceful with me. So, I mean, that's part of it. And then when I moved to my parents house, my mom and dad's ward was so supportive. There were some people that they didn't really know how to react or how to act around me, and so they kind of just avoided me, which. Which was fine. I'd actually experienced that before. I had a tumor removed when I was 29 or 28, and the ward was very weird toward me, almost like I had a disease. And so I was experiencing some of the same symptoms of that, of. Well, we don't know what to say. So instead of just being there, we're gonna just ignore her. So that was part. I mean, that. A little bit of that happened. But the ward that my parents were living in at the time embraced me like I had never been embraced before. They gave me, because I was a single woman. They gave me a high priest and his wife as my home teachers. They came faithfully every month. They loved me, they loved my kids. So a good chunk of the ward was amazing. And just, we love you, we support you. How can we help you? And then there were others that I think, because they don't know what to say, because we don't talk about divorce and we don't talk about what it's like or what divorced individuals in the church need. And so instead, they ignored me. It was almost like I didn't exist, in a way, to some of them. So it was hard. It was hard. I felt very alone. I felt very alone when they would talk about eternal families. And I didn't ever want to be that person that felt bitter about my situation. I don't never use that as an excuse, and I don't allow myself or my children to be victims. But it was a tough time. It was just hard to feel like you're no longer the ideal Mormon. You don't. You're not. You're not the ideal member of the church anymore because now you're. You're somehow scarred from this divorce.

John Dehlin [00:13:56] So all the messages, and that's tough because the church isn't going to change its doctrine about eternal families. And so I don't know what the Church can do about talking about the importance of eternal families, because that's central

Jen Parkinson [00:14:11] to their doctrine, and I think that's okay. And that's central to the church, and that's okay with me. What I would love for people to understand is that if you have someone that you know that is in that situation that's trying to be a faithful member of the church. What drove me crazy was going to church and having everyone pretend like everything's okay. Because we all know that not everything's okay. Right? And you compare. I go to church, everyone looks nice, everyone's in their Sunday best. And then you start comparing what you know of your own life to what you think. Right? We make assumptions about others, so then we tell ourselves stories. Oh, their life is perfect. Oh, look at them. Their kids are. All their hair is brushed, and it took everything just to get me and my kids by myself to church. And so just knowing that, why can't we talk about real life when we're in Relief Society and we're talking about eternal families? Why aren't we talking about the Fact that not all of our families look the same, and that's okay. It's just that kind of thing to just. I understand that there's an ideal and that there's, there's this idea of a perfect family, but that doesn't exist. And what is a normal family? And that's who determines that. And, and so to be able to just have real talks about real life and how to navigate this thing we call life that gets really messy sometimes that, I mean, let's talk about the real stuff. And that, that was always really hard for me because it felt so fluffy. And so sometimes I would bring it up and say, well, you know, it's okay if, if this, if you don't look the same as everybody else and that your situation looks different. And I don't know that my perspective was always appreciated, but I know some people would tell me that they appreciated it, but just being aware and being sensitive that not everybody's situation is, is ideal. And man, you do not know what goes on behind closed doors. There should be never any judging. And, and I know that, I mean, it was weird, the questions people would ask me that they just felt like they could ask, like, so who decided to get a divorce? So who, who has custody of the kids? So I mean, just weird questions like that, that just don't ask those questions. Just, just be supportive. And instead of saying, call me if you need anything, just do something. Right? Like, that's kind of the philosophy I've taken post divorce is when I see someone struggling, yeah, I'll ask them, is there something I can do? And if they say no, because it's really hard to ask for help, especially for someone like me. Just, I just do something now. I just say, I'm coming to pick up your kids so you can have an hour to yourself or I'm, I'm bringing you dinner. And you can't say no. Just, just look for ways to help without. You don't need to know the details. You don't, you don't need, you don't need them. And, and don't make judgments and don't make assumptions and don't tell yourself stories that you just have no business telling yourself.

John Dehlin [00:17:32] I remember when I was a home teacher always saying, is there anything we can do? Having no idea what to do. And they always say, no, I'm fine. So that's what you mean, don't ask that? Because if you ask that, you're not going to get a good answer, right?

Jen Parkinson [00:17:46] Yeah. Who's going to tell you? Yeah, actually, John, I need you to go. And I really need a gallon of milk. And I don't feel like I can leave my house. Can you go buy me a gallon of milk? I mean, who's going to tell you? Everyone's going to say, I'm fine, but we're not. And we're all a little bit broken because we're all human beings, but, man, our scars make us who we are today. And I would not change my scars for anything. I'm who I am because of them. But maybe just being a little bit more sensitive and knowing that, yes, an eternal family, that is central to the doctrine of the Church. Absolutely. And that's okay, but if someone doesn't look the part, that's this ideal Mormon, then that is okay. It's okay.

John Dehlin [00:18:36] All right. Did you ever get a sense that people. I've heard reports of single women feeling like other men or women were worried that you would be a threat to their marriages. Did that ever come up, or was that not something you experienced?

Jen Parkinson [00:18:54] That wasn't something I ever experienced. Maybe I'm not hot enough, I don't know. But I never experienced that. No, I didn't. I didn't experience that at all.

John Dehlin [00:19:05] And I imagine there were good things that, you know, that the church did some positive things to support you. Is that fair to say?

Jen Parkinson [00:19:14] It is fair to say. I had an amazing bishop at the time, and we. When I decided to file for divorce, I went in and met with my bishop and said, I've decided to file for divorce. And he said, I can't counsel you one way or another, but I can tell you how the Lord expects his daughters to be treated and you're not being treated as such. And that gave me validation, I think, to feel like I was doing the right thing in my ecclesiastical leader's eyes. The ward helped me pay for counseling. I needed some counseling. And there's a family crisis center here in my town that helped me with a few sessions. And then my ward paid for me to receive counseling for about four months, and I couldn't afford it. I was a single mom, and I made very little money, and I was trying to be a faithful member of the church and paying a full tithe. And the Relief Society president, she was. She was awesome. She would come and visit and check on me and the ward. The ward was really great because my son was sick, and they really rallied around me. It was such a good ward. I feel like I was so fortunate to go through this really rough time in my life in the ward that I did and my, my parents were amazing. I mean, so as far as the ward though they were, they were definitely, definitely supportive.

John Dehlin [00:20:59] So I guess on the one hand there are ways that the church is not always great for divorced or single people, but it sounds like there are ways the church is really great for divorced or single people. Is it kind of both?

Jen Parkinson [00:21:13] Yeah, I mean, I think that just embracing the single moms and knowing that they are struggling and just loving them through it without pushing them in a way that they are not comfortable pushing, being pushed. I mean, I think, I think that the church did great in some regards and then in other regards it was tough just because I didn't look like the correct. It didn't seem like in my mind that I looked like I was doing the right thing anymore, if that makes sense. And so, yeah, I mean this church can be very, very supportive in these instances. And that's what I hope that, that people can take away from that.

Dating Again and Remarrying

John Dehlin [00:22:10] So any other things about being, you know, single or divorced? What was dating like? Was that hard? Was that weird?

Jen Parkinson [00:22:23] It was, it was really weird because I hadn't been on it. I mean, I know some people experienced this and haven't been on dates for a lot longer than me, but I hadn't been on a first date in nine years when I went on a first date with my husband. And it was really weird. But what was kind of cool at the same time is that when you've been married and then you're courting for a second go around, you start asking questions that you maybe wouldn't have asked the first time because you've been through it. You, you know, we would talk about what, what do you, how do you discipline your children, what do you do with your money, how much debt do you have? And those kinds of things you don't really talk about, you don't know to talk about. Especially when you're having a lightning round courtship like so many members of the church do, you don't talk about those important topics. And so dating was so different. And I didn't want to introduce my children to anyone because I didn't want them to be confused. I was very, at first, I was very anti dating. I was not interested in it at all. And it was my now sister in law that set me and my husband up. And it took a lot of coaxing to get me to go and my husband to go just because it's. Well. And if you're gonna, I mean, I don't know if you're Gonna date. It's. It's like, are you dating for fun? Are you trying to find another spouse? And I was not interested in getting married again. And so it was very weird to be an adult and then having to. It was also weird to have this newfound freedom when my children would go and visit their dad that. I felt very guilty at first enjoying my kids being away because I felt like I should be so sad that they're gone. But it was kind of a nice break and I felt guilty about enjoying that.

John Dehlin [00:24:38] Interesting. So you were kind of enjoying the break. And marriage hadn't gone great the first time, so it would make sense that you weren't eager and thrilled to jump in again. Was there church pressure to remarry?

Jen Parkinson [00:24:56] No, not. Not that I experienced. I actually wasn't single for very long and I.

John Dehlin [00:25:03] How long were you single for?

Jen Parkinson [00:25:06] Less than a year.

John Dehlin [00:25:08] Oh, wow.

Jen Parkinson [00:25:09] Yeah. So this. And I looked at it like it was a blessing from God that I had lived through. Through so much hell and heartache that I found a man who was trying to live righteously. And my husband had been inactive for some time and returned to the gospel. And I felt like it was a sign that God loved me so much that he sent me my husband so quickly after. After I got divorced and I had another whirlwind courtship again, actually.

John Dehlin [00:25:48] So you didn't really have a chance to kind of learn that lesson of really getting to know somebody.

Jen Parkinson [00:25:53] No, I didn't. Nope.

John Dehlin [00:25:56] Okay.

Jen Parkinson [00:25:56] I think we had my. We had my sister in law in common and so I knew she wouldn't set me up with. With a jerk. And I knew that I knew a lot about my husband's background and his former spouse and he knew a lot about my background and my former spouse. And so I think we kind of had this bond that. Or we felt like we had this bond that because we have our sister in law in common. And then we would. Because dating is so different. We. We would talk for hours. In fact, that was. The majority of our courtship was just talking. We didn't really do a lot except we would go for long drives talking and talking and talking about life and experience. And it was cool. It was incredibly hard to try and stay temple worthy to get married. That was an incredibly difficult situation because we were not able to be sealed in the temple from the moment that we got married because my husband was returning to church and I didn't have a cancellation of sealing. And so we got married civilly. And my husband said, I'm sorry, I can't Take you to the temple when we get married. And I said, that's okay, as long as we're temple worthy when we get married, then that's all I care about. And that was. That was really difficult.

John Dehlin [00:27:32] So he was. He was returning to activity during that time?

Jen Parkinson [00:27:35] Yes, he had recently returned to activity in the church right before we started dating.

John Dehlin [00:27:43] And how, you know, did the. Did the divorce from your first husband and all the difficulties challenge your faith at all at that point? Was it something?

Jen Parkinson [00:27:55] No, because I turned to what I felt like was comfortable for me, for comfort and peace. And I attended the temple more frequently as a divorced individual than I ever did married. I went to the temple all the time. My mom would watch my kids for me, and I worshiped in the temple and tried and begged and prayed for peace. And I tried to turn to my scriptures and prayer more than ever before. And so I felt like I turned more to the gospel than away from the gospel.

John Dehlin [00:28:41] Wow. So after all these perceived failures for an anxious, scrupulous person, you decide you're going to just try harder and triple down.

Jen Parkinson [00:28:52] If I just try harder, then it's going to be better. If I just do more of what I know I'm supposed to do, then somehow it's all going to work out. If I'm more faithful, then I'll get more blessings. If I keep doing this, then maybe I'll find that peace. And I just turned and tried to be even more devout and more. More faithful and pushed myself even farther to grow in the gospel and to try to be a righteous woman for my children. And. And so, no, I went the opposite direction.

John Dehlin [00:29:27] Okay. Wow, that's setting you up for some disappointment. I'm already feeling sad how I see this train wreck coming. Okay, so you marry your husband. I mean, we could get into the whole sealing cancellation thing about how a man who's sealed to an ex wife can just go ahead and marry a new wife without any permission if she's never been married before, doesn't have to get any permission. But if a woman's been married to a man sealed, she has to get that sealing canceled before she can remarry. Even if the person she's remarrying has never been sealed before. Is that your understanding of how it still is?

Temple Sealing Cancellation and Second Marriage

Jen Parkinson [00:30:09] Mm, yep, that's exactly what I experienced.

John Dehlin [00:30:12] And is there any story you want to tell about trying to get that ceiling canceled? Or was that pain or, you know,

Jen Parkinson [00:30:19] what it was like reliving a nightmare for me? Because you have to be very specific in your Letter to the first presidency as to why you want a cancellation of sealing. And you also have to write in that letter if your new spouse had anything to do with you. Your initial divorce, which I didn't know my husband at the time that I got divorced, so that was not, that was a non issue. But I had to go back and relive this, this heartache all over again. And we didn't, we didn't get sealed for a little while. We didn't do the civil marriage. And then exactly one year after, my husband wanted to make sure that that's what he wanted to do, that we both wanted to be sealed for eternity before we decided to do that, because second marriages are tough, tough, tough, tough. And combining families and children is one of the hardest things I've ever done in my life. And so we waited to the point where we felt like we were both ready to take on that commitment. We took it very seriously. But the process of sending that letter was painful. And then my bishop had to try to contact my ex husband and he had to show certain attempts, like a receipt for a certified letter. And my ex husband never responded. And so they pushed the ceiling cancellation forward without any response from my ex husband. And it came back and that it was canceled. And we were sealed just a few weeks later. Actually, we didn't make a big. We didn't make it into a big, big ceremony or anything like that. We just had a few family members. It was very, very small. And at the time my parents were serving as mission president. And so my mom was able to attend, but not my dad. He couldn't leave the mission.

John Dehlin [00:32:30] Your dad was a mission president by this point?

Jen Parkinson [00:32:32] Yeah, my dad was a mission president at this point.

John Dehlin [00:32:36] Yeah. So again, if so did they. Did you have to tell the church about your husband's infidelities and him being gay? Was that all part of the letter?

Jen Parkinson [00:32:47] And yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:48] So you have to like tell all the dish all this dirt on your ex spouse, right?

Jen Parkinson [00:32:53] Yeah, you, you have to, you have to basic. I felt like it was tattling on him. It was weird because I feel like you have, you have to show how you are weren't how almost like how it was the other spouse's fault, sort of. It was his fault. So I deserve. The cancellation was sort of what the letter was all about. And so, I mean, and I was worried that I wasn't gonna get it, but my stake president said, you know, you're, you're fine because I was so worried because I knew my ex husband Wasn't gonna respond. And by this point, he was living openly gay and with a partner. But I knew he wouldn't respond anyway. But I still felt like I had to almost tattle all this garbage on him to be able to receive that.

John Dehlin [00:33:47] Did you ask him, hey, why don't you respond and help me out with this? I'd love your help. Or were you not talking or.

Jen Parkinson [00:33:53] No, at that point it was still really painful. And we, at that point, we weren't on fantastic terms. We've come a long way in the last seven years in just realizing that our kids are the most important and their well being is the most important. And it's not about winning anymore. It's not about what's best for you, what's best for me, it's what's best for the kids. And at that point, we weren't quite there. We still had some pain there. And so no, I never even asked him. It was almost like, don't ask. I never even approached him. I never talked about it. And I can imagine that it was probably, I don't know, this is maybe making an assumption on his behalf, but it might have been really painful for him to try and relive that or to feel like he was somehow a failure. I don't know that he felt that way, but I would hope he didn't feel that way. But I don't know. I mean, I really, I don't know if that was why he didn't respond, because he would have had to have admitted that he was the cause of a family breaking up. And gosh, how hard, I mean, how hard is that? But no, I did not reach out to him. I didn't want to cause any more pain that maybe was already there.

John Dehlin [00:35:18] Okay. Yeah, that whole process is just so messed up.

Jen Parkinson [00:35:22] Yeah, it's a difficult process to have to try and go back and relive. And I felt like I was having to dig out memories that I tried to push away. And it was pages long of justification for why I should receive it.

John Dehlin [00:35:39] And like, what, what are they going to say? No, like, oh, no, sorry, you can't unseal yourself from your. Like, I'm just trying to imagine a scenario where they reject it. Right. And if they, if they don't reject it, then why this grueling process that takes up this dirt? I don't know.

Jen Parkinson [00:35:57] I actually never really thought about it until you asked that. I don't know. I don't. I. In fact, my husband just a couple days ago said I didn't know that a man could be sealed to more than one woman. This was just this last week that we had that conversation. So he didn't even. He wasn't even aware of that.

John Dehlin [00:36:13] Yeah. More than one current apostle in the LDS Church. Dallin H. Oaks, Russell M. Nelson, probably others. They are sealed to multiple women. They only married women who weren't sealed to men before. So Mormons still believe in and practice polygamy. They just anticipate living polygamy in heaven, not on this earth.

Jen Parkinson [00:36:36] Interesting.

John Dehlin [00:36:37] Yeah. Okay, so you married your husband. He was trying to get fully active and committed to the church. Eventually, you have your sealing cancellation approved, and you get married in the temple. You get sealed for the second time. This time, it's gonna be the eternal marriage. That works out because your mission, you know, your mission didn't work out great. Your first marriage didn't work out great. But now you're doubling down, you're tripling down, and this time, you're gonna have that great marriage and make it to the social kingdom.

Jen Parkinson [00:37:16] You got it? That's exactly what we thought.

John Dehlin [00:37:19] Okay, so what happened? Did that. Did it go well? What happened?

Jen Parkinson [00:37:24] So our ceiling was. It was a little bit disappointing. Not now. The actual ceiling portion of it was great. And I've never seen my husband look at me the way that he looked at me across the altar of the temple. Just this pure love in his eyes. It was. That part of it was. Was amazing, but it was just. It was. The whole day was just not what I really had planned. It wasn't as. I don't know. I think because the hype of getting married when you get sealed, that it's like this big. I think a lot of times the actual reception is what's. What's celebrated. And so we didn't have anything like that. It was just. We literally were just going into the temple, and I wanted so badly to go outside the temple in our temple in our white clothes and take pictures, because I've seen other families be able to do that. But they told us we couldn't do that because we weren't. We didn't have children being sealed to us. That's. Only if you have children being sealed to you can you go outside in your white clothes and take pictures. I was so disappointed. I was so sad because I had bought a new dress for the. For it. A new temple dress. And it was. You know, Brett was in his white clothes, and we were so sad.

John Dehlin [00:38:52] Any idea why they had that rule?

Jen Parkinson [00:38:54] They told us it was only if you have children. Being sealed to you. I don't know if that's specific to that temple, but we were not allowed to go outside and take pictures on the temple grounds in our white clothes.

John Dehlin [00:39:07] You don't mean with the apron and the hat?

Jen Parkinson [00:39:09] No, no, no, no, no. I just mean I just wanted of us in our. Him and his white clothes and me in my white dress. No temple clothing.

John Dehlin [00:39:19] Why in the world would they care? That's super bizarre.

Jen Parkinson [00:39:22] I don't know. But we were not allowed to do that. So we went outside in our street clothes and took pictures. My sister in law is a professional photographer, so she was there with her camera and we thought we were going to get these really cool pictures and we weren't able to. And that was just. The whole thing was just kind of a. I don't know, I don't want to call it a disappointment, but it just wasn't. It wasn't what we had planned, I guess, or what I thought it was going to be. You know, you set yourself up for these big expectations and my expectations weren't met. But I will never forget the look in my husband's eyes as we knelt across the altar and he looked at me with just pure love. It was pure love.

John Dehlin [00:40:04] Okay.

Jen Parkinson [00:40:05] That was super cool.

John Dehlin [00:40:06] Okay. So I had asked you what went wrong. So did you. Was. Are you saying that something about that experience put some cracks in your faith or in your husband's faith or in your relationship?

Faith Challenges and the November 2015 Policy

Jen Parkinson [00:40:19] Not at that point, no. No. Shortly after we were sealed, very shortly after, just within a couple months, we actually moved to Phoenix, Arizona. And this is where, you know, people have referred to as. I've gone through this transition. I've listened to lots of stories and I've heard lots of stories about faith shelves. Right. You have these, these things you don't quite understand, so you put them on your faith shelf and then eventually your faith shelf cracks. And for the first time in my life, well, I was. I was offended by the comment that Bishop made about depression and not having a good relationship with the Savior. But I'd always been taught the church is perfect, that people are not. Remember that the church is perfect, that people are not. And so I never, because I've always been told people that leave the church either are offended, they're lazy, or they want to justify sin. And I believed that. Right. Like I thought that that was the right thing. And so I never wanted to be like that. But in Phoenix, where we lived, we started having some faith shelf experiences by the way we were treated in our ward and I tried to continue to tell myself, the church is perfect, the people are not, the church is perfect, the people are not. But when you are in a ward that is extremely wealthy and you are the poor people of the ward, our rent in Phoenix was hundreds of dollars more than our mortgages now. And we were scraping by, by the sky of our teeth, and the bishop made fun of our house. My husband was very offended by that comment because he felt like he was not somehow living up to the priesthood leader role of taking care of our family. And so he didn't want to go back to church with that particular bishop. But we kept going. And one Sunday, my husband wore a sport coat and slacks to church. And after sacrament meeting, the bishop pulled me aside and told me that my husband, for not wearing a tie to church, was acting out in rebellion. And so these kind of started this idea of a faith shelf where we just kind of tucked him away and thought we'd never experienced this kind of treatment at church before. And it was really difficult. So we kind of just stopped going. Only because. Not because I felt like, oh, the church isn't true. I didn't feel that. I just felt like I don't want to go and be made fun of or be told that we're poor or that my husband's rebellious. I mean, he was at church, are we not? Why are we not celebrating that? And so I guess I sort of became disenchanted. And we didn't stay in Phoenix very long, and we came back to Idaho and moved back into the ward that I was in when I got divorced. And so we knew that we were coming back to a great ward and our kids were just embraced back. And so we went, we went back. I mean, then we started being active again. It wasn't that we were inactive in Phoenix. We just didn't feel comfortable, I guess. And then I started working for the church and.

John Dehlin [00:43:50] Meaning? Meaning, oh, well, I guess you may not want to talk about that.

Jen Parkinson [00:43:55] Which part?

John Dehlin [00:43:56] Like your job, what you were doing for the church?

Jen Parkinson [00:43:58] Yeah, I worked. Actually, I worked on campus at BYU Idaho for a little while. Yeah, I worked for BYU Idaho. And I mean, great, great job, great people. And I was just. I mean, I was fine. We were active. These instances in Phoenix, I think started to put a crack in my foundation, if you will. And then what really, really hurt me was the policy of the. November 2015. So at this point, we moved back and I started working at BYU Idaho in October of 2014. So I'd been there a little over a Year and then we back up a little bit. There had been some struggles with trying to balance blending families that caused two of my children for their emotional well being, we sent them to live with my ex husband and his partner. And so at the time of the November 2015 policy, my, my middle child had just, literally just been baptized like a handful of weeks before this policy. And he and my daughter were living at the time with my ex husband and his partner. So this policy.

John Dehlin [00:45:27] Yeah, that wasn't just, that wasn't just theory, that was literal.

Jen Parkinson [00:45:31] No, it was, it was affecting me. It was a. And my, my thought was, my gosh, my son just got baptized. Thank goodness he just got baptized or he wouldn't be able to be baptized. And then, I mean, I kept thinking,

John Dehlin [00:45:45] for those who maybe are listening 10 years from now, or who are from another planet, what did you tell, tell people what policy you're talking about?

Jen Parkinson [00:45:53] So I'm talking about the policy that the church came out with that states that children residing or children of same sex couples cannot be baptized until they're 18 years old and at the time of their baptism have to basically say, I don't agree with what my parents, how my parents have raised me.

John Dehlin [00:46:17] They have to renounce the marriage of their same sex parents.

Jen Parkinson [00:46:21] Exactly. And so my children were directly affected by this policy.

John Dehlin [00:46:27] Now you were a believer at the time this policy came out?

Jen Parkinson [00:46:30] Firm believer, like orthodox, active. But my faith shelf, so to speak, came crashing off the wall at that point because I felt like there's no way that a loving father in heaven would, would say that LGBT are, I mean I just, and at this point, mind you, I still was pretty close minded with, I didn't actually, I was okay with my kids living with my ex husband and his partner because they were seeing what was to me a loving relationship and they were seeing they were being very well taken care of. And so who am I to say my ex husband shouldn't be happy? And so seeing my kids, I had a very positive experience with my ex husband and his partner when my children lived with them for a short period of time. And that really showed me that it doesn't matter what your sexual orientation is, you can still be a good parent. And so did you have a sense

John Dehlin [00:47:42] that your ex husband was still a believer in the church? You know, do you know how he felt about the policy? Did it even come up?

Jen Parkinson [00:47:51] Yeah, we talked to each other. We, I called him. I first, I first when I heard about the policy, I called my dad, who was a mission president right yes. Yeah. And he had recently come home from his mission as mission president, and I called him in absolute hysterics. I was hysterical, and. Because I thought, who better to go to than someone that. I mean, he had been a mission president, he'd been a bishop, he'd been a stake president, and like I mentioned, he's one of the smartest men that I know and is truly one of my heroes. And so I called him, and with reason. My dad is very, very, very orthodox. My dad was very defensive when I called, and he said, don't question the brethren. They will work this out. You just need to have faith in the brethren. And it didn't settle with me, but I knew I wasn't going to get anywhere with my dad because he's very, very orthodox and was very defensive, and I was very defensive because it was affecting my children. So I left that with my dad. Just, you know, don't question. Have faith. They're gonna work it out. And then I called my ex husband, and I talked to him for a very long time that night, and we both cried. It's very emotional. It was so hurtful. It was just so. We were devastated for our kids, which is interesting, because at the time, my ex husband was not active. He wasn't active, but he totally supported. He would take my kids to primary sometimes, and then the ward that they lived in was incredible. And they would take my kids to primary when my ex husband either wasn't able or didn't want to. And so it was heartbreaking for him as well, because he was trying to still be believing even though he was practicing an openly gay lifestyle. I just can't even imagine the conflict that he was feeling at the time. But we both cried and said, you know what? We're going to just be faithful. We have to be faithful somehow. This is from God. And I got off social media because I knew that social media was going to be rampant with hatred for the church and hatred for the LGBT community. And I was so fragile at that time with my testimony that I deleted my Facebook app off my phone. I didn't get on social media because I knew that it was going to be devastating to me, to my children. I just. I couldn't read any of it. I didn't want to read anything that anyone produced in contrary to what the church was saying or in favor of what the church was saying. I just. I removed myself completely and then went to the temple, and that's what I tried to do to try to work through this horrific process. Of trying to truly wrestle with the Lord because I had never had a faith shaking experience, ever. Even through divorce, even through sick children, even through coming home from my mission, even through everything. A broken engagement. I'd been engaged before my ex husband. Through all of those things, I didn't feel like it was faith shattering, like this was faith shattering. And so, you know, if I was still working for the church and I needed my job. And so honestly, I think I just pushed my discontent with that policy just to the side. And my ex husband said, you know what, we're going to get through this, it's going to be okay. I don't know how, but I have felt faith and somehow our kids are going to be okay. And I immediately thought, I have to get my kids back for my ex husband because I can't let my son not receive the priesthood at 12. I can't let him be alienated. And so I thought I have to, so that I can be a faithful mom to them and help them. I have to rescue them from their dad, is what my, is what my thoughts went to. And I pushed aside my feelings about the inequity of the policy or whatever, whatever. I, I mean, it was so hard for me. I pushed him aside and, and then stayed away from social media and tried to gain a testimony of the policy, which I never received, but still tried to, I don't know, keep my faith intact, I guess. And then shortly thereafter, not because of the policy, but because of some circumstances with my ex husband and his partner, my kids came back to our house.

John Dehlin [00:53:14] I just want to say that is so painful that on the one hand you feel like it's an unchristlike and an unjust policy and that it's inhumane towards your husband and his partner. On the other hand, you're petrified that it's gonna make your children stand out and be punished for the, quote, sins of their father, but then you're gonna want to take your kids away from their father even though you felt like it was good for them to be with him because you're so scared about how the policy might affect them. That feels awful. It seems awful.

Jen Parkinson [00:53:56] It was, it was hard. And my family didn't understand because they were not direct. I mean, they were direct, technically, directly affected, I guess you could say, because it was their grandchildren, but not, I mean, it was my blood that was affected. And I have a very, very dear friend who at this point was still closeted gay. And he was also working at byu, Idaho. And the day after the policy Came out, the two of us went to a local soda shop and got a pretzel and a soda and sat there for hours crying with each other, mourning with each other, and then trying to figure out, how do we try and navigate this and still have faith in the gospel? And it was. It was a heartbreaking time that I felt like no one could really understand because they weren't. They weren't directly affected by it. I was directly affected by it. My kids were directly affected by it. And it was. It was heart wrenching because I tried to not question the brethren. Don't question the brethren. Just be faithful. Be faithful. And I tried to do that by getting off of social media. I tried to do that by going back to the temple. I tried to do that by talking with my ex husband and seeing if he wanted the kids to return to me so that they could have the blessings of the gospel. It just. It was just. It was so hard. It was so hard.

John Dehlin [00:55:35] Did your ex husband tell you how the policy felt to him?

Jen Parkinson [00:55:39] He was devastated. I mean, he was hurt, but he. He was so good. He was. He. He was so good. And just said, we. It's okay. It's okay. We're gonna get through this. And I think he was. He was. What helped me, seeing him react in a way that said, I am faithful, that the church is still true. I think we can. I know, I know. And he just said, I think we can. I think we can navigate this together. And I don't know how he reacted that way, but he did and just said, like, we can keep moving forward. Even still, to this day, he feels like he wants to baptize and get himself together so he can baptize our youngest child. And I don't know how he does. Was a rough time. Okay, it was a rough time, but that, I think, is where my foundation started to crumble. And then through a series of events at work, actually, and just seeing some inequities about how women are treated working on campus, it was very difficult for me to witness. And I'm not. Not a feminist by any.

John Dehlin [00:57:03] Wait, wait, I have to stop you a feminist? This isn't me challenging you. It's just kind of trying to make sure, you know, we do our best to understand what that means. What I understand feminist to mean is that you just believe women and men should be treated equally. Do you not consider yourself a feminist in that?

Jen Parkinson [00:57:20] Okay, so in that regard, I am a feminist.

John Dehlin [00:57:22] Okay.

Jen Parkinson [00:57:23] All right. But I guess what I mean is by me saying that is that I'VE never pushed for like women in the priesthood. I've never, I've never pushed for as far as like in the gospel. I've been fine with my role as a woman.

John Dehlin [00:57:38] You didn't bring feminism into your Mormon engagement?

Jen Parkinson [00:57:41] No, like, for me, for me, that just. That was like a non issue. But I started seeing things where it was really difficult for me. For example, I was in a meeting where they. We were discussing a possible promotion and it was, well, we should probably give it to him because he has a family to support. Where I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. I'm not working to have a condo in Maui. I'm working to put food on my table and pay for my mortgage. And just because I'm a woman doesn't mean that I don't deserve something like that. And even if I was working for a condo in Maui, whose business is that? Right? It's my own business and my husband. I asked my boss to be able to teach. I was teaching a couple class, you know, my. The religion or not the religion. I don't know why I brought that in. The, the department that I was teaching for wanted me to teach two classes. My boss was teaching two classes. He's a man. I went to him and said, I would like the same exception that you have. And he told me, no, you don't have enough time. You need to be home with your family. You're a working mom. Just. There were some weird things that were happening. My boss pulled me in, said he had prayed about what to tell me in a meeting, and proceeded to list out all my weaknesses, all these things that he saw wrong with me. And I'm open to feedback. I want feedback. I want to be the best employee I can be. I'm super passionate about my work. But he told me I was too passionate about working. You know, just some weird things like that started happening to me working.

John Dehlin [00:59:18] That reminds me of what they were telling you in the mtc, that you were two spirited or, you know, it's just like getting these messages that there's. Your personality's wrong, you know?

Jen Parkinson [00:59:27] Yeah, yeah. And he told me, I mean, my boss listed all the wrong things about my personality. All. I mean, it was like a laundry list. And then he proceeded to send an email to me the next day with all of those reiterated. It was a tough thing for me. And in the meantime, while all of this was going on, my husband was starting his faith journey and his faith transition. He. He had been introduced and I misunderstood him at the beginning and thought he was Reading anti Mormon literature, when in reality, my husband started with the church essays.

John Dehlin [01:00:10] So the church releases its essays and your husband finds out about him and starts reading him.

Jen Parkinson [01:00:14] Exactly. That's exactly what happened. So he got on LDS.org and he read the church essays, and he started to have questions. At the same time, I was being treated in a very inappropriate manner at work. And so he said, you know, it's really hard for me to watch you being treated this way and this faith transition. So I think part of his faith transition was actually what was happening to me at work too, because he just said, how. How can you be treated this way if. I mean, where's the difference between church and state and priesthood? It gets really tricky. Working for the church is a tricky thing. And so in the, in byu, Idaho's defense, it's tricky because you're praying at every staff meeting. You're, you know, you're. You're trying to bring the gospel into everything that you do, but it's still your place of employment. So it's a very tricky balance. And so I don't fault my boss for trying to be a spiritual leader. I don't fault him for that. Just the way he went about it was tough. But. So my husband came to me in the fall and said, I have a couple questions. He referred to the Brethren as the Q15. And I freaked out.

John Dehlin [01:01:34] What was wrong with that? What was wrong with that?

Jen Parkinson [01:01:36] Oh, I was like, that is so disrespectful. You can't call them the Q15. He was so innocent. He was just. He had just read it, and he wasn't trying to be disrespectful by any stretch of the imagination. But I freaked out. I freaked out so bad that he realized that he couldn't really talk to me about what he was studying because I got really defensive anytime he tried to ask me any questions. Anytime he asked me, I had the same reaction that my dad had of being really defensive. So I understood my dad's reaction. Now all of a sudden, I understood because I felt threatened by my husband finding out some information that was simply on LDS.org and it was stuff I hadn't heard of before. And that when I, when I was younger and I was growing up, I had heard someone refer to the seer stones. And I asked, I asked my parents about it. This was a long time ago. And I was told that that was anti Mormon literature. The hat, looking into a hat and the seer stones. And so. But then my husband found it on lds.org. and now it became, well, that's our history. And so there. There became some cognitive dissonance, but I still was not ready. And Brett was so good about not pushing me. So for those listening who are maybe the one, the. The first spouse that's starting to have a faith crisis, be patient and don't push, because that's what that is, what my husband did. And he was very patient, but he was terrified to ask me any questions because he thought I was going to divorce him. He thought that I was going to say, I'm done. And we've had some rough times over the past six years of combining families and kids and really tough stuff that we've navigated, but I would never leave him over a faith crisis. That, to me, I don't understand. I've heard of lots of people. And he had read and listened to stories of people just saying, like wives or spouses, the opposing spouse packing up everything and saying, I'm done. I'm out of here, without even trying to talk it through. But I promised him that I would not divorce him over a faith crisis, that we would get through this. I didn't know how, but we would get through it. And he told me shortly thereafter, I am done going to church, but I will support you in going to church. And I went for months by myself, and my stepchildren didn't attend. It was just me and my biological children going to church. And then some Sundays, it was just me. I just emotionally couldn't try and drag myself and three kids with the questions of, why aren't they going? And the looks of people in my ward and the I don't like to be the topic of others conversations, and I don't like to be gossiped about. And the looks of people in my wardrobe. Oh, poor Jen Parkinson. Look at her. She's sitting all by herself. And I had someone come to my office while I was working on campus and say, I saw you in church all by yourself during my working hours. This is again why working on campus was tough for me, saying, I saw you at church all by yourself. I just feel so sorry for you. Are you okay? And I started hating that. And then my poor husband felt bad because he felt like he was the cause of that. But he, bless his heart, he suffered in silence because I wouldn't hear it. I wouldn't have any part of it. I didn't want to know what he was reading. I didn't want to know what he was learning. Mostly because I needed my job and I was working on campus. I needed to keep that endorsement alive.

John Dehlin [01:06:05] Yeah, we touched on this a little bit. I've been developing this theory on what keeps people in the church in the 21st century. And having a job that's tied to the church is one of the main categories that I've come up with. Jen, what I'd like to do, I think we've reached a point where this makes sense to have it be the end of segment two. We've covered so much good stuff. So if it's okay, what we can do is close out this portion of the interview. Because we covered being single in the church, we covered being divorced, we covered your remarriage, tripling and quadrupling down the ceiling, cancellation, and then the November policy and your shelf starting to crack with your husband leaving. So if it's okay, let's close this one. And in the next episode we're going to talk about how you dealt with your husband leaving the church and how that was hard for you. And then we're going to talk about what led to your own unraveling. And then we'll close out with how that's affected your relationship with your parents and siblings. How does that sound?

Jen Parkinson [01:07:18] Great. That sounds perfect. I love it.

John Dehlin [01:07:21] Okay, so I just want to thank Mormon Stories listeners for sticking staying tuned in to this episode. This what it's going to be, a three part episode with Jen Parkinson. It's been super interesting. For those of you who've enjoyed it so far, please do consider supporting Mormon Stories. You can go to mormonstories.org donate and it's just a way to keep this stuff alive. But for those who already do support us, we just want to thank you so much because your support makes this possible. If you have enjoyed Jen's interview so far, if you've got comments or questions, we'd love you to go to MormonStories.org to the post and make your comments or ask your questions to Jen. We love participation there. If you're listening to this on YouTube or on Facebook, we also welcome you to make comments there. But Jen, it's been great having you on and I can't wait to hear part three and what happens next.

Jen Parkinson [01:08:17] Okay. Hope I'm not boring.

John Dehlin [01:08:19] No, this is great.

Jen Parkinson [01:08:20] Okay, thanks.

John Dehlin [01:08:21] All right, everyone, stay tuned and join us. Join us right now for part three on Mormon Stories podcast. It's been great having you and come on right back for part three. Thanks again, Jen.

Jen Parkinson [01:08:33] Love it.

John Dehlin [01:08:39] Thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org music for this episode will was provided by the Lower Lights and other sources.

Jen Parkinson [01:08:54] Cease to make me whole when with the wounded heart, anger or malice

John Dehlin [01:09:13] I

Jen Parkinson [01:09:13] draw myself apart, searching my soul.

Husband's Faith Transition and Mixed-Faith Marriage

Part 3 of 3 · Ep. 756

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the Donate button on the right side of the page under support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support. The kindly light amid encircling gloom

Jen Parkinson [00:00:43] Lead thou me on the night is dark.

John Dehlin [00:00:48] Hello everyone and welcome Back to part three of my interview with Jen Parkinson. It's June 9, 2017. We've covered an epic story, another epic story on Mormon Stories podcast. Again, we've covered Jen's being raised by an orthodox family. Her dad was bishop, then he was in a stake presidency, then he served as a mission president. This is sort of broaching Mormon royalty in terms of leadership status. From what she describes about her dad, raised in the church, served a mission, Perfectionism, byu, all the stuff efy, married a gay man seven years trying to make that marriage work with three kids. Marriage ended in divorce, fighting for a ceiling cancellation. Ugly stuff. Tripling down with righteousness for Jen, having also come home early from a mission because of anxiety and depression and perfectionism. Then she meets meets her current husband and they work hard to end up getting sealed. And then the November policy happens while Jen's kids are living with her ex husband who's with his partner. So all the stress that they dealed with in dealing with that November 2015 policy that declares same sex married individuals apostates, that says that children of same sex couples are not worthy to advance in positions in the church, including baptism or priesthood ordinances. How that made Jen want to actually take the kids away from her ex husband who was actually being a good father to the children. But he was okay with it because he was still believing in the church and to this day maybe still is, and was trying to support the policy, which is its own level of difficulty and complexity and pain. And so that led to, you know, Jen tripling and quadrupling down while she was at byu Idaho, you know, employee experiencing sexism in the workforce there. And then finally, after fighting so hard to be super righteous and perfectionistic now with like three and four strikes where her husband now loses his faith. Jen, how did you survive all that?

Jen Parkinson [00:03:17] Lots of Diet Coke.

John Dehlin [00:03:21] Okay, so you talked about how your husband lost his faith. This must have been devastating to you. Yet again, because you're just desperately fighting for the Mormon family, for the celestial marriage. And here now, again, no fault of your own, the hopes are dashed and you're still faithful at this point, although your shelf is crumbling. But you're holding in because of your church employment at this point and probably still some belief. You ended last episode by saying that you were not going to be the spouse to end a marriage because your husband lost his faith. We have so many couples where that's not the case. I have a friend who told his wife that he didn't believe anymore. And immediately the wife's reaction was, I want a divorce. What kept you from having that reaction? Knowing that eternal marriage was so important to you and you had failed before, how did you not want to throw your husband under the bus?

Jen Parkinson [00:04:28] It was, I mean, it was hard. It was really hard. But I love my husband more than I even knew that you could love a spouse. I think, you know, it sounds so cliche and so, so silly, but I truly did not know how much you could love a spouse. Now that I'm married to my husband and I believe that I loved my ex husband in a different way and I'm so grateful to him for my children, but I love my husband with every part of me. We're emotionally connected, we're mentally connected, we're physically connected. We laugh, we cry. Well, he doesn't cry. He doesn't have tear ducts. We don't think he does not cry, but. But we just have. So we have been through so much in the last six years that if I didn't love him, he wouldn't be around and vice versa. We don't, we don't need one another financially. We both have incredible jobs, and so our marriage is because we want to be married. I mean, it would be easier in so many ways to just say, you take your kids, I take my kids. You live on your income, I live on my income. We don't need all this garbage. But we love each other so much and we have so much fun together. And so I looked at it more like if I'm going to be a part member family, or maybe this is actually. This is actually what I. Part of what I thought was if I keep going to church and I keep remaining active, then my stepkids will remember that their stepmom was an active, faithful Latter Day Saint. And my kids will go with me and remember that we went to church as a family. And maybe, just maybe, my husband will return to the gospel if I can keep Being faithful enough, then maybe they'll return. But I'm not going to just scrap my marriage that I absolutely love. And maybe this is just a crisis. Maybe this is just a temporary thing. Maybe he'll return because at this point, I had no idea what he had learned. I had no idea what I. I just. I like rules. I like structure. I'm loyal to a fault. And so I thought, I can keep doing this, and I can do this by myself. I'm a strong woman. I've been through hard things. I've maintained my faith. And so I guess I just thought, I can be strong enough for all of us in the gospel. And I love him way too much to let this marriage cross crumble.

John Dehlin [00:07:40] Okay, so I got to stop you there. So one thing that I just have to note is we've already talked about you doubling and tripling and even quadrupling down, trying to make the Mormon plan of salvation work for you. This is almost like you quintupling down now. So I just can't. I just have to wonder what that's like for you, with anxiety, with perfectionism, to just keep fighting for this Mormon dream and just. You keep failing and you keep trying harder, and then you keep failing again like that. That's one thing. There's another thing I want to mention, but I'm just wondering how you're feeling at this point in your life.

Navigating Stepchildren and Family Dynamics

Jen Parkinson [00:08:23] Yeah. So when I married my husband, people told me that I was the best thing that was ever going to happen to his kids and to him, and that I was an answer to prayers and all of these things because of how faithful I was. And so I remember putting this pressure on me, as if I haven't put enough pressure on myself. I put this pressure on me of, I am going to save everyone in our family. I am going to teach them the gospel, and I am going to raise a righteous family. And if they don't learn how to become faithful members of the church, I have failed as their stepmom. That. That was what I told myself. And so at this point, you know, my step kids don't go to seminary, and they had stopped going to church far before Brett had stopped going to church. And. And I was. I. I was feeling like I'm failing more. I'm failing, I'm failing. And if you ask, it's too bad Brett's not in here, too. But if you asked him, I was an emotional basket case. I would come home from work and I would either cry. I hated everything about my job. And so all day at work, I was stressed out because I didn't like it. And then I came home from work and I just. Nothing. I was failing in all aspects of my life, or so I thought. And I was taking heavy duty anti anxiety and antidepressant medication. That is how I was getting through it. I was taking Xanax regularly. And for those that don't know how strong that is, that's intense medication. And I was taking a daily medication on top of that. And I felt like I was about to have a mental breakdown. And that sounds very, very dramatic, but I just didn't know how much more I could handle. I just felt like I was cracking everywhere. Nothing was bringing me happiness, nothing was bringing me joy. I came home from work and all I wanted to do was go to bed. I didn't really want to talk to my kids. I didn't want to talk to my husband. I just wanted to crawl into a hole and hope that my life would somehow calm down. And I couldn't tell anybody that because I had to keep up this facade that I was holding on. And I was good and I was strong and. And I was. I just felt like I. And I. I just felt fragile. So fragile. Like. Like I was burning at both ends of the candlestick and I was just starting to fray, just fraying everywhere and failing at every part of my life.

John Dehlin [00:11:13] And we know that there are very high. Well, what we understand is that in Utah there are very high depression rates amongst women and very high usage rates of psychotropic medication. Oh, and I was.

Jen Parkinson [00:11:28] Yeah, I'm there.

John Dehlin [00:11:30] I just have to think that part of it is this pressure cooker perfectionism and a plan that so often, you know, it works great for those who are able to fit in the plan, but as soon as you're not fitting in the plan. I remember a woman we interviewed for the Losing the Lamanite series who, who said she was ready to kill herself because no matter how hard she tried, she just couldn't. She couldn't get the plan to work. And once her kids left the church and she had been divorced, she just felt like, I'm just failing all the time. That's got to be how it was for you as well.

Jen Parkinson [00:12:04] I felt that exact same thing. I'm failing. And then I didn't feel like I must be hard to love because I can't do anything right. And my husband kept saying, why are you so negative about yourself? And I mean, beating myself, beating myself down because I just, what looked like success in my gospel Eyes. I wasn't successful at anything at all? Nothing.

John Dehlin [00:12:31] Okay, really quickly. The other thing I wanted to bring up before we talk about the mixed faith marriage is, you know, you talked about your love for your husband specifically was what helped you stay committed to him once he lost his faith. And of course, you're quintupling down to want to try and be now the savior for him and your stepchildren and everyone. But so what, you know, can you put your. Let's just say a mixed faith couple's listening now and the believing spouse is listening. What that sort of implies if they're thinking about leaving their spouse, is that either they don't really love their spouse or something else. I guess it's possible that there are lots of mixed faith couples where when they get married, they just rush into it and they don't really genuinely love each other. I guess that's one scenario. Although I'm guessing that there might be a lot of couples that take offense to that and would say, well, that's not fair. Don't accuse me of not really loving my spouse. Can you think of another? Can you put yourself in that believing mindset when you found out your husband left and develop empathy for a spouse that might want to leave their spouse but really loves them? Is that something you can envision? What would the mindset of a believing spouse be that would love their spouse but consider divorcing them?

Jen Parkinson [00:13:58] Yeah. No, and I mean no disrespect to anyone that's in a mixed faith or who is the believing spouse that you don't. I don't mean to imply that you don't love your spouse. I went through thinking through that exact scenario and thinking my eternal family that I have dreamt about and lived for, that's one of the things I've realized, is that as members of the church, I was so focused on living for my death, living for what I thought was going to come in the next life, and forgetting what's happening right before me that I can see in front of my face. And that helped me to kind of transition my believing of. I had to mourn this idea of an eternal family per se. But then I started thinking, well, maybe we're not giving God enough credit. Maybe he's more merciful than we maybe think. And maybe it will still be okay because my husband will show that he's still a good man. And I had faith that the Lord would somehow work it out, that maybe it wasn't as black and white as I'd been told. For so long. And that was my own belief and my own thinking that maybe it isn't so black and white because I've realized over the last few years that I didn't fit into a black and white Mormon mold. And it's helped me to be more open minded because I haven't quite fit into that. And so for those listening that potentially are the believing spouse, I could see my husband physically in front of me and know that he was, that he was real. And not that I didn't think my beliefs were real because they are very, they were very, very real. And, and, but I needed to, I needed to weigh out did I love my beliefs or did I love my spouse more? And I'm, and that's a difficult journey.

John Dehlin [00:16:18] That's like, yeah, but see, a Mormon might say God and Jesus win. I mean, you shouldn't have to choose between God and Jesus and your spouse, but who could be more important than God and Jesus? So I guess I can see how a Mormon would think, yep, God and Jesus went over spouse.

Jen Parkinson [00:16:36] I would, because I get that part because I used to believe that. I used to think that I have a friend who I went to college with whose spouse was excommunicated. And I watched her grieve and try and decide, do I stay married? And I was like, you should leave. You should leave because there's someone else that potentially could get you to the celestial kingdom. And so I get it, I get it. And maybe looking back in retrospect, maybe what allowed me to accept more was because a little bit of my foundation was already starting to crumble. And so maybe I was more open to the idea of maybe there's some, some truth to what he's seeing. And again, I didn't know what he was, what he was researching. I didn't know what he was learning. I didn't know anything about it except that I saw how hurt, how much he was hurting. And I thought, I have to support him through this hurt. And I don't know, I think that I was a little more open because I had had some faith shaking experiences. And maybe had he come to me prior to November of 2015, maybe I would have said, we're done, we're out, I'm done. But I think I was to a point where I was a little bit more open minded to the possibility of researching faith, all aspects. And I came to the conclusion, and maybe this will help someone. I came to the conclusion that if the church works for me and the church doesn't work for him, but I'm happy in the church and he's not and he's happier out. If whatever brings us happiness can somehow we can navigate it together, then I have to be okay with it. Now, I had no idea what that meant, but that's what I thought in my head was, I can be fine with this. I'm strong enough to handle this.

Advice for Believing Spouses in Faith Crises

John Dehlin [00:18:51] So if you were to have a chance to speak to a believing spouse who's thinking about not loving or divorcing their spouse because their spouse has lost their faith, what would you say? What would your plea be to the believing spouse?

Jen Parkinson [00:19:08] I would say, please give it time. Please, please, please don't make any, any quick decisions. If your spouse comes to you and says, I'm having a faith crisis, as hard as it is, there's so much goodness that that is in, that is in the Mormon faith that it's so complex and there's such a mourning process that needs to take place. I would beg and plead to be patient not only with your spouse, but with yourself and to be not open minded in that your spouse is going to potentially convert you away from the gospel, but to allow your spouse to ask questions, allow your spouse to have wholesome discussions and allow yourself to be open minded. And please, I beg of you to be patient and to just not make a rash decision and to really, really, really look at what is the most important to you and just go, well,

John Dehlin [00:20:25] what if the gospel is the most important thing to them?

Jen Parkinson [00:20:31] I mean, my dad grew up in a part member family

John Dehlin [00:20:38] and he became a mission president.

Jen Parkinson [00:20:40] He did. So I mean, is it possible to navigate one believing spouse and one non believing spouse? I believe that you can do it. There's challenges that will be there. But if you're. My big thing with marriage and making it work is open and honest communication. And I mean, if the gospel is most important, then is the gospel most important without your spouse? Or can you navigate a marriage where you feel like I can be faithful and it's okay that you're not? I think it's possible, but it's going to come with challenges. And I think it's okay to not have a believing spouse and have one that is believing in one that isn't. If you can navigate that and I actually know lots of people that live in that world where they are only going to church for their spouse or if their spouse was more open minded, they would all leave the church. That is something that is so personal and I can't say yes, do that or yes, do this, but I Just that breaks my heart because I know how difficult that is. And I guess that's a decision that you have to make. And I guess if you really, truly believe that the gospel alone is what's going to be right for you and your family, then I've decided that I will support whatever someone decides in their faith, whether they want to be LDS or not, or Buddhist or agnostic or atheist. I don't care. Just be authentic and happy. And if you can be authentic and happy in your marriage, then that's what's most important.

John Dehlin [00:22:35] So a lot of times when the believing spouse finds out that the non believing spouse has been studying anti Mormon literature, even if they're studying, you know, church manuals and the church essays, the reaction is, I don't want to know, I don't want to talk about it. That's one of the most frustrating and damaging things that a non believer will communicate is this is supposed to be the love of their life. This is supposed to be their soulmate. You know, what's more important than spirituality and truth and this framework of existence, of living, and yet their partner wants to know nothing about it. Can you relate to that?

Jen Parkinson [00:23:18] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:23:20] How could you be that way with this husband that you loved?

Jen Parkinson [00:23:22] I know, I know. It's so. That's why I say it's. This is so complicated, you know, with like transitioning faith and trying to navigate this because. Because I was that same way. I don't want to hear it. You're reading anti Mormon literature, which, incidentally, no, he was not. But that's what I thought. And I did not want any part of it. I did not want to know about it. I didn't want to know what he was reading and forgive my language, but he told me that I was a complete bitch to him. He said, you were so mean that. Because you just said, don't tell me just what you're reading is evil. And I was so mean that he just became totally withdrawn.

John Dehlin [00:24:14] So how do you love Christ and the gospel and be super mean to the spouse who's supposed to be your eternal companion?

Jen Parkinson [00:24:21] Great question.

John Dehlin [00:24:22] No. I mean, no. And I don't mean that to dig at anybody.

Jen Parkinson [00:24:26] No.

John Dehlin [00:24:27] Like, what was going through your mind?

Jen Parkinson [00:24:30] I was scared. I was really, really scared. I was afraid of finding out what he had studied because I was afraid that I would follow behind him. And then what? And then because I have a sibling who has been in and out of activity for a lot of their adult life, and I watched what happened when my sibling transitioned away from the gospel and I saw the alienation and I didn't want to go there. I didn't want to know. I just. Because I was afraid of the repercussions. And so I was very close minded. And it goes against being Christlike. The reactions of those who are experiencing a loved one in a faith transition are completely contrary for the most part now, now not everybody, but for a lot, a majority of the people that you tell that you're having this faith crisis, you are. Then, I mean, the behaviors turn into hurt. And so I've seen that firsthand before. And I guess I was worried about what that was going to look like and what will I tell my family with my husband who's now inactive? Will they be now disappointed in me yet again? Because I was so worried about what other people would think that I didn't want to know, I didn't want to hear it, I didn't want to participate in it. I still needed to keep my job. Now, mind you, I was looking for another job at the time because. For so many reasons, not because I was transitioning away from my faith, but because where I was working was toxic. It was toxic, which is sad because you think when you're working for the church it shouldn't be that way, but it was a toxic environment. And so while I was still trying to remain faithful, I was having job interviews. So I don't want you to think that I left my employment because of my faith. That's actually, it was part of it. But I didn't leave byu, Idaho. I actually transitioned after I left. But I was mean, John. I was mean. I didn't. I wasn't supportive. I wasn't Christlike. I wasn't. I pushed my favorite human being away. I did. And it caused hurt for him. It caused contention in our marriage. It caused angst. It was difficult because as he was mourning the loss of this identity, I pushed him away. I was not there. I was not there. And I'm ashamed of how I treated him. But that was like a defense mechanism, I think, because I was so afraid of finding out what he had found out. I relate. Totally.

John Dehlin [00:27:40] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's just. It makes sense and it doesn't make sense. Right? I mean, it makes no sense that a partner would tell the love of their life. I don't want to hear. And especially because you assume that if you marry someone, it's because you think they're smart and because you trust them, because they have integrity and because you care about them. So if somebody's gonna. If somebody has, you know, and it takes a lot to leave the church and to question it, it takes a lot of courage because of all the social pressure, the family pressure, just all the psychological pressure. So you'd think that if someone that you allegedly loved and cherished and supported and respected starts questioning, you'd be like, oh, my gosh, well, I love you and I trust you and I care about you, so I want to learn everything. So in one sense, that's what I would expect to be the reaction for anything else, you know, but that's obviously not the way humans work. On the other side, it makes perfect sense that if somebody, if the church means everything to them, they don't want to hear it. And in your case, it makes sense because, look, you had an open heart and mind because you had experienced doubt and you had experienced violence or hard things with the church. And I guess now it's time to talk about what happened to you.

Jen Parkinson [00:29:02] Yeah. So my husband was very patient. Like I mentioned, he didn't push it. So those of you that are maybe the first spouse to transition, just don't push it. Don't force it, don't force it.

John Dehlin [00:29:17] Do the opposite. Act extra supportive, extra encouraging, and be like, I'll never tell you anything. As long as you want to believe, I'll never say a word. Psychologically, that makes the other person have a better chance of ultimately wanting to hear. Then if they feel like you're digging and pushing and prodding, you're just going to create resistance.

Jen Parkinson [00:29:40] You got it. Exactly. So for me, I was offered a job, a different job, and it was a dream job. And so I left byu, Idaho. It was really hard to leave the students. I absolutely adored the students and teaching. But I left. I left there. I accepted a new job and I man, it is the most incredible job. I'm so happy. And so right away, when I started this new job, I felt this sense of relief and this sense of this toxic environment going out for me and, and I just felt like I was in a really good place to try to be as open minded as I could. And the last several months of going to church by myself was really difficult. The pressure of keeping an ecclesiastical endorsement was no longer over my head. I think that allowed me to be a little bit more open minded, but it wasn't like, oh, phew, I left, left there. I don't need an endorsement now, I can leave the church. That wasn't how it happened. But I was a little bit more open minded now because I didn't have that pressure. And I decided that I was going to read the church essays. That was where it started.

John Dehlin [00:31:13] Because they're safe. The church puts them out. They've got to be safe. Right?

Jen Parkinson [00:31:16] Yeah. And so I thought, you know what? I'm gonna read the church essays to know what it is that this all about, you know, Because I didn't know. I'm. I'm not very good with church history. I don't. I mean, people will say doctrine and Covenant section this, and I think. I don't know what that is. Like, I just. I'm just not very well versed in things like that. I mean, I've been teaching. I taught you Sunday school and things like that, but I learned it for the lesson. I'm. I have a terrible memory, so dates and things like that just don't. I don't know that stuff. So I thought, well, I just want to know what this is all about. So I got on lds.org and I just started reading. And I am really into education, and I'm a very big critical thinker. I have a master's degree. I'm going for a second master's degree in the fall. I just. I really, really like education and I like to read and I like to be knowledgeable. And. And so I just. I read about the Seer Stones. I didn't know about them. And.

John Dehlin [00:32:24] Wait, wait, I thought you had said earlier in the first episode. Yeah, you had brought them up and your parents said they were anti Mormon.

Jen Parkinson [00:32:30] But I didn't. I had heard what they were, and that's when I asked about them and were told it was anti Mormon literature. But so now I'm reading the history of the Seer stones, if that makes sense. So, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:41] Yeah.

Jen Parkinson [00:32:42] So, yes, I had heard about them and they were anti Mormon literature. Then I read about them and I am like, wait, I thought these were anti Mormon literature. And now they're on the church essays. That's. So it caused like, okay. And so that got me reading another one and reading another one. And then I thought, this. This is what I felt was when I read about the Seer Stones. And I remembered back to that conversation of them being anti Mormon literature. I felt deceived. Meaning, wait a second. I've always seen a picture of Joseph Smith with gold plates and a sheet, no stones, no hat. And I got really confused. So I went to my husband and said, I'm really confused. And he said, I know. And that sort of opened the rabbit's hole, if you will. I had heard about The CES letter. And so I read that and that led me to reading no Man Knows My History, which led me to rough stone rolling. So I just started digging and researching and I still didn't join any anti Mormon groups. I did join a Facebook group that is for all levels of Mormonism, trying to keep you active in Mormonism and trying to navigate that, that transition. And I found, what's that called? A Thoughtful faith.

John Dehlin [00:34:39] Okay.

Jen Parkinson [00:34:40] And it was so cool to join a group.

John Dehlin [00:34:44] How'd you hear about it?

Jen Parkinson [00:34:46] My sister in law.

John Dehlin [00:34:47] Okay.

Jen Parkinson [00:34:49] And I, I joined that group and it was, it was so refreshing to know that I wasn't. Number one, I wasn't crazy. Number two, it was, it was okay what I was doing that I was trying to just get answers. I wasn't trying to be against the church, I was just trying to get answers. And I was looking for support because I knew I couldn't go to my family for support because I tried that previously and was welcomed with defensiveness and don't question and don't read anti Mormon literature and don't research and don't read and don't do any of these things. But then I was attending a devotional at BYU Idaho when I worked there and Sherry Dew came and it was funny because the students didn't really know who she was, but in my day she was a big celebrity and she was in the, you know, the General Release Society presidency. And she talked at BYU Idaho about engaging in the wrestle, engaging in the wrestle of getting answers. And that that was a good thing to do. And so I felt like I was following Sherry Dew's counsel in wrestling with the Lord to get answers. And then so now by this time my husband and I were starting to talk about some of the things in the CES letter that like some of the stuff in the CES letter I was like that for some reason that doesn't bother me or that seems a little one sided or like I kind of don't care about that. But there were a few things that stuck out to me that I was really disturbed by. And so then I would go to my husband and say, what about this and what about that?

Difficult Church History and Losing Belief

John Dehlin [00:36:31] Like what, what were some of the things you were disturbed by?

Jen Parkinson [00:36:33] So what really disturbed me was polyandry because what is that for those who

John Dehlin [00:36:38] don't know, what is that?

Jen Parkinson [00:36:39] So that, that's me being married to a woman who's already married.

John Dehlin [00:36:43] So who did that? Who did that?

Jen Parkinson [00:36:45] Joseph Smith participated in that. And Brigham Young. Right. I think Brigham Young too. But Definitely Joseph Smith. And it was secretive. And there were. There were. It made me. Because I'd been taught, like, polygamy. I never loved the idea, but I thought, fine, okay, that was back in the day. Would I want my husband to practice polygamy? No way. He said, I'm enough to handle. He wouldn't want another wife. But, you know, like, that. That for some reason, polygamy was fine, you know, okay. But polyandry, if what the church is taught is that polygamy is because, you know, men, you know, husbands would die and they needed. Women needed to be taken care of, so they took more than one wife. And. And I thought, okay, I mean, do I love that? No. Does it make. Kind of. Does it make sense? Okay, but if that's why polygamy was practiced, then explain to me why you would marry someone who's already married.

John Dehlin [00:37:58] That.

Jen Parkinson [00:37:58] That doesn't. That doesn't make any sense. And why would it be secretive? And why would it be behind people's backs? And why was this not. Was this not taught?

John Dehlin [00:38:12] And why would. And why would Joseph send people's husbands away on a mission and then proposition the wife to be a married. While the. While the guy was on the mission? Right.

Jen Parkinson [00:38:22] Like, I just. That just. That just was unsettling to me. And so then that part. So after I was very unhappy with polyandry, I heard about Mormon stories, the Open Stories foundation, and I heard about this guy named John Dehlin, and I heard about, you know, other people sharing their stories and that you could know that you're not alone. And so I started listening to the podcast. I have a hefty commute, and I listened to. I was in a stage of my transition where I listened as I was driving to work on my lunch break, as I was driving home while I was fixing dinner, I was listening to these podcasts of stories, and then I would talk to my husband about it.

John Dehlin [00:39:18] Were there certain episodes, let's just say three to five, that really stood out for you? That really impacted you?

Jen Parkinson [00:39:26] Yeah. Though the one where. So Tom Phillips and the second anointing, my. I was done. I mean, I was so. So I listened from the very beginning. I listened to. I listened to all the lgbt. I was touched by the LGBT stories. I think because of my experience with my ex husband, my children being raised well, my friends who are gay, Those were just touching to my heart. And then the episode that changed my life was Tom Phillips. And let me explain why. So I'd read the CES letter and I was feeling Very uncomfortable with the history. And then a letter to my wife. My husband shared a letter to my

John Dehlin [00:40:22] wife with me, and that's like CES letter that someone wrote, but it's anonymous. It's anonymous. And some would say it's written to be as neutral as possible. Although I think CES letter's great. So it's not a criticism. It's just another type of CES letter.

Jen Parkinson [00:40:38] No.

John Dehlin [00:40:39] Explicitly intended to be as neutral as possible.

Jen Parkinson [00:40:42] Yeah. And I actually reached out and thanked Jeremy Reynolds for his. I mean, so I know there's no. I'm not criticizing the CES letter by any means at all, but for some reason, a letter to my wife was. It was a little bit easier for me to read. And once I started, I couldn't put it down. And Letter to my wife is what my. After he. After my husband read that, that's what he. That's what cracked his shelf. So after I read it, I. I felt like I was done. But before I listened to Tom Phillips. So in the meantime, I received a phone call from my mom asking me. She told me I had been highly recommended and I had been ecclesiastically endorsed to speak at a youth conference. And I thought, why do I have to be ecclesiastically endorsed to speak at a youth conference? That just seems like. But my mom. My mom called me and asked me if I would do this, and I said yes. Then the next week, I listened to the Tom Phillips episode, and if you haven't listened to that, it's all about the second anointing, which I had read about on LDS.org I read about it. You're calling an election. Made sure. But to listen to that podcast, I. It was a Sunday, laid on my bed with my husband.

John Dehlin [00:42:09] Describe to those who don't know what is the second anointing.

Jen Parkinson [00:42:12] So the second anointing is an ordinance that takes place in the temple that.

John Dehlin [00:42:21] It's top secret. Super top secret.

Jen Parkinson [00:42:23] Top secret. It's a secret ordinance that regular members of the church do not know about. Where elite leaders, Men get to receive an ordinance that guarantees them women, too.

John Dehlin [00:42:39] Women too.

Jen Parkinson [00:42:40] Yes. Well, they. They. Yeah, they are guaranteed a spot in the celestial kingdom. So to me, in my mind, while they're alive.

John Dehlin [00:42:48] Right.

Jen Parkinson [00:42:48] While they're alive. So. So in my mind, what that was saying to me, this is just according to me, was that it was men playing God, that how could a man on earth judge for God and say, you're entered into the celestial kingdom and, oh, it doesn't really matter how you live the rest of Your life because you can have this ordinance. Oh, and by the way, you can choose three more people to receive this ordinance. That will happen when the temple is closed and no one knows about it, and don't tell anybody about it and lie to your family about where you're going. And, like, it just. My mind was literally blown. Like, mind blown. And I thought, I can't. I can't. I can't talk to the youth. I can't. I can't do this anymore. I just.

John Dehlin [00:43:42] Why did the second anointing bug you?

Jen Parkinson [00:43:45] Because it seems so elitist and it seems so secretive. And if there really is an ordinance on Earth that you can receive to receive the celestial kingdom, or why don't we know about it? Why don't I know about it? What makes a mission president, a stake president? You know, anybody? What makes them better than some janitor in Mexico sweeping floors, making 100 bucks a year, paying a full tithing? Why wouldn't he be able to receive that if he's so faithful?

John Dehlin [00:44:21] Because it's usually stake presidents, mission presidents, temple presidents, general authorities.

Jen Parkinson [00:44:27] You gotta be high up.

John Dehlin [00:44:28] And usually those people are doctors and lawyers and dentists and successful businessmen or CEs. It's almost never a schoolteacher. Right?

Jen Parkinson [00:44:37] Yeah, it just. To me, it's just what caused me the most cognitive dissonance for that was, number one, how can a man tell anybody else that they can go to the celestial kingdom? And just this. This idea of it not being. I hate this when my kids say that's not fair, but it just doesn't seem equitable for all members of the church. And I don't know why, but for me, because for my husband, that didn't. That didn't bug him the way that it bugged me, but stuff bugged him. That didn't bug me. And so I just decided at that point, after I listened to that, that I couldn't. For me, my faith was cracked. Now, for other people who are active members of the church, who. It works for them and it makes them happy, then I support that, too. I don't want to say that I hate the church because I don't hate the church. I just. If the church works for you, great. If the church doesn't work for you, great. I'm not going to judge you. I'm not going to be harsh with you. Whatever you feel like is the right thing. But I just. For me, that was like, faith shelf down. Faith shelf crumbled. Faith shelf in flames. I just felt like if we have these secret ordinances what else am I being deceived about? Which led me to more research, which I know my family would not approve because it's anti Mormon literature. But I started learning about where tithing funds were going, and it was really hard for me to accept that because as a single mom making $1,000 a month, I paid a full tithing and.

John Dehlin [00:46:51] Are you talking about City Creek Mall or other things?

Jen Parkinson [00:46:53] Yeah, that and the building in Philadelphia and

John Dehlin [00:46:58] like the commercial real estate, residential real estate investments.

Jen Parkinson [00:47:02] Yeah, I just. Just those. Those things were just so hard for me to. To accept and. And other people know about them and accept them and feel like they don't know the answers, because I've asked for answers repeatedly, and there are no answers. But the answer they give me is, I don't know the answer, but I feel faithful, and I feel like it's fine. And I say to them, wonderful, Great. For me, I couldn't. Couldn't support it anymore. And it wasn't something. Leaving has not been something that I have taken lightly. I know that my family feels like I made a rash decision, but if I look back, the faith items started back in Phoenix in 2013. So, I mean, we're talking four years of kind of just pushing things aside and then truly just having a heartbreaking experience with the November 2015 policy and then learning these things that I didn't ever know, that whether or not you learn them from a church resource or elsewhere, are they true. That's what matters to me. And I'm all about seeking truth. I'm all about seeking knowledge. I'm all about learning and studying and growing and pushing my brain. And so for me, reading these things and learning these things was what caused me to feel like I could no longer support myself being part of that organization, but that I would never push my learnings off on anyone else, ever.

John Dehlin [00:48:46] Yeah. Yeah, we're clear on that. That you support people's own journeys. Let me ask you one of the most difficult questions that might come out of this. What if somebody were to say, oh, bless her heart, she came home early for remission, or, bless her heart, she married a gay guy and she was never the same after that. Or, bless her heart, she got divorced. Or, bless her heart, she married a guy who lost his faith and so she followed him. If she just had married someone else who had stayed faithful, or what if they just said, jen didn't try hard enough, she just. She stopped reading her scriptures, she stopped praying, or she got offended in that Arizona ward, she got offended. There's A million pieces of ammo you've given people for them to be able to kind of write you off and say, well, you didn't do it right, or, you know, you got it wrong or you did it wrong, or poor you, you just married the wrong person or married the wrong people. What would you say to somebody that tried to discount your faith crisis by blaming it on either you're doing it wrong or other factors in your life that caused it?

Jen Parkinson [00:50:01] I would say in that instance, that I. A whole bag of nopes. No, no, no. Nope, nope, nope. I tried. I. I tried to be as faithful as I could through all the crap that life threw at me. I worked harder at my faith. I tried and I worked and worked and worked at my faith and worked and worked and worked in my faith more and put these huge pressures and burdens on myself and tried to be perfect. And it was no one pushing me to do any research but me deciding to try and find out what is all of this? What are people learning? What is making someone leave the church? And I only simply wanted to find truth in my journey. And I did try hard, and I did. I mean, if you could see how faithful I tried to be through the process of all of that. I was a faithful, devote Latter Day Saint who, when Gordon B. Hinckley, said, take out your second pair of earrings, man, I took out my second pair of earrings. I was obedient to a T, but what I wanted. And I know that my husband is found at fault a lot, that it's his fault because he went first. I, I did start reading out of curiosity, but it was not my husband pushing me to do so. I'm a big girl and I make my decisions on my own. And I chose for myself to read and research. No one pushed me. No one. It wasn't because I felt bitter. It wasn't because I was offended that I wanted to find the truth. It wasn't any of those reasons other than I was simply seeking truth and whether there were answers. You know, if there were answers and there was other answers to what I was seeking, then I was open to that. I wasn't trying to discount the church. I just wanted to find the answers for me and find the truth. That's all I was trying to do.

John Dehlin [00:52:22] Okay, so if you're not going to let people blame it on being offended or marrying the wrong people or not trying hard enough, what if they blame it on you being deceived or fooled by me, by anti Mormon, anti Mormons, You've been deceived by anti Mormons.

Jen Parkinson [00:52:41] I've been told that. I've actually been told that exact thing. That your motives, John, are to lead people astray and that there's so much anti Mormon literature out there. And I guess you could say there's anti everything out there. I mean, think about. I'm sure there's anti Buddhism, anti Catholicism, anti everything. I'm sure you could find anything you want. But to them, I would say I also disagree because the experiences that I've had with Open Stories foundation have been helpful. Not in saying, aha, look at this. That's right, I'm being deceived or all of this. It's been healing for me because leaving my faith has been one of the hardest things I've ever done in my life. And so I know how I feel. And I've been told by those that have said that I am being led astray, that they know how they feel and I know how I feel and I know how I feel after. And I was always taught that people that leave lose the light of Christ and they're miserable and they just have these awful lives after they leave because they've been deceived. And I have found quite the opposite. And so it's hard for me to feel like I've been deceived when I'm no longer taking anti anxiety medication, where I don't feel pressure to be perfect, where at my current job I am appreciated for my passion and my drive, and where I love the time that I have with my children more because I don't know what is going to be beyond this life. And so all I know is I see these little human beings in front of me and I can touch them, them and feel them and appreciate them. And I relish in the differences of people and the things that I have learned. And when I look at that, I don't feel like I've been deceived because I know how I feel, just like they know how they feel. I do not feel deceived at all. And because my life is. It has improved leaps and bounds by letting go of so much pressure that was on me to live something that I don't think is attainable in this life.

Life After Leaving the Church

John Dehlin [00:55:30] So are you saying that leaving the church has made you more healthy and happy?

Jen Parkinson [00:55:37] Yes. Which has shocked me because. Because leaving, I was terrified. Because you lose, you lose. I mean, like I said previously, the church does bring a lot of goodness into someone's life, right? I mean, you've got sense of community. You have, you have commonalities you have help when you're needed. When it's needed, you have.

John Dehlin [00:55:58] There's so much meaning, meaning and purpose and identity and morality and all that stuff.

Jen Parkinson [00:56:03] Yes. And so, I mean, I thought, how will I teach my children to be responsible human beings now? And how will I teach my kids to love other people? And so it was scary. But I. Looking backwards over the last few months, I feel like I can breathe. I feel like this level of anxiety has subsided. I feel like I physically am healthier. I don't require as much sleep as I required months before because I'm not. I guess I'm not as depressed. I mean, I didn't even realize it. And so, yeah, it's made me healthier emotionally, physically. I just. I feel like I'm living authentically more to who I am than I was previously, and I didn't know it.

Coming Out to Family and Final Reflections

John Dehlin [00:57:12] So we've talked about, you know, being a believing spouse and how to handle. How not to handle it when your spouse loses their faith. This is a really sensitive thing. But can you talk about, you know, there's this other dynamic where a child that leaves the church becomes a disappointment to their parents, becomes a disappointment to their siblings, can sometimes even be ostracized from family, from immediate family, when just months previous they were viewed as the golden child, and they were in weekly or even daily contact with their parents or siblings for years and years and decades without wanting to attack your family, knowing that they're just trying to be lovely, faithful people. What are you comfortable sharing about how this has affected your relationship with your parents and your siblings?

Jen Parkinson [00:58:13] So the day before I came out to my family, I actually had dinner with my dad, and I was too chicken to talk about this in person, so I took the chicken way, I guess, and I sent an email the next day coming out to my family, just stating that I have different beliefs now, but I still respect them and I still love them. And I hope that they can love and respect me for me, just for who I am. And I received emails back.

John Dehlin [00:58:50] So you didn't try and tell them all the reasons and.

Jen Parkinson [00:58:52] No, because. Because I didn't. I didn't. I didn't share anything. I kept it. I just. I just said I had learned things that didn't settle well with me. I didn't go into any specifics. I.

John Dehlin [00:59:04] So you weren't threatening? You weren't threatening?

Jen Parkinson [00:59:06] No.

John Dehlin [00:59:06] Other than just to say you didn't believe anymore?

Jen Parkinson [00:59:08] No, I didn't want to do that. I didn't want to take that approach I just simply said my beliefs have changed. Please just love me for who I am. And in my experience before, like I mentioned, I had a sibling that has been in and out of the church for a lot of their adult life. And I watched this sibling do things that were very disrespectful to my parents in regards to their faith. And I wanted to be sure I was not disrespectful. I don't want to disrespect anyone's belief. So I. And so I thought that I would be received differently. I knew that it was going to be difficult, but I truly in my heart thought I would be received differently because I haven't been vocal, I haven't been doing anything anti Mormon wise. I haven't shared anything on social media. And my sibling was the opposite of that. And so I was very, very respectful. And I did receive emails back quickly from my parents saying, you know, our love for you is not contingent on your activity in the church. We love you, we care about you, we want to have a relationship with you. And I was so relieved because I just thought, oh my gosh, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. See, what I thought was gonna happen, happen. My family is just loving me for me, and it's gonna be great. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna continue to reach out and I'm gonna be just the same as I was. And I'm gonna show them that the core of me hasn't changed. I still have integrity and honesty and I've got a great career and I've got wonderful children. And I was thrilled and thrilled. And then reality set in. And

John Dehlin [01:00:57] how many weeks or months ago did you come out to your parents?

Jen Parkinson [01:00:59] In February.

John Dehlin [01:01:01] Okay. February of 2017. It's now four months. We're four months in. So four months in reality set in.

Jen Parkinson [01:01:08] How so? Like, communication that would normally happen stopped. Meaning I was. I texted my mom every day. I talked to my parents a lot on the phone. My siblings, I'm not, I'm not a huge phone talker. And so my siblings and I, we text a lot, but we don't necessarily call a lot. I have one sister that we would talk probably every few weeks, and that communication has stopped. And so my sibling that's been in and out has reached out a little bit more and has kind of had my back in a few instances when they've had conversations with my parents about, we don't have anything in common anymore, which is not true because we used to shop and talk about books we read and make crafts and none of those things about me have changed. But for some reason, that shift in paradigm has been we no longer have anything in common. So that sibling's been able to kind of help patch that. But the further and further we've gone along, the more I've altered my appearance, meaning I have my nose pierced. I have a few visible tattoos which I can cover up. I keep them covered at work. I'm really respectful with that. It's for my own personal expression. And I realize tattoos aren't for everyone, but I've altered myself a little bit to kind of be a little bit more self expressive. Maybe I'm making up for lost time, I don't know. But I feel great about who I am and the woman that I am. And my children are wonderful little people. And most recently, my family had a family function. And I'm still on the family emails, at least some of them. I'm sure there's others that I'm not privy to, but I'm still on the family emails. I'm still on the family text messages. And so I was included in this email exchange about a family function that was coming up. And I asked when it was because I wanted to go. I was so excited. And all I heard back were crickets. No one responded. And then later, when it got closer, one of my siblings posted about this event on Facebook. So I knew when it was happening and I talked with my spouse and it was very important for me that I go. It was a public event and so I was able to go and be in the shadows.

John Dehlin [01:03:54] But you weren't included.

Jen Parkinson [01:03:56] I was not included.

John Dehlin [01:03:57] You had to go to the event that your whole family went to together and you had to go alone because you weren't invited to be with the family.

Jen Parkinson [01:04:05] Right?

John Dehlin [01:04:06] To a family outing.

Jen Parkinson [01:04:07] Right. And so I attended alone. I didn't, you know, I didn't. I didn't bring my kids. It was, it was a very long drive for me. But it was very important to me that I participate because for me, I wanted to be there and then for support. I wanted to be there and I saw my family there. I almost walked into one of my family members, but I kept myself hidden just because I didn't want to make them uncomfortable because I knew that they hadn't told me when this event was going to be so I could read between the lines and realize I was not welcome. But I later wanted my family to know that I had been there so that they could know that I saw what, what happened not to make them feel bad, but that I wanted them to know that I had made an effort because I was trying to reach out. And I had reached out to my mom to seek some advice just a few weeks, probably about six weeks after I had come out. And it was very businesslike. I could tell that my mom didn't want to talk to me. It was really hurtful. But I realized in her mind they were mourning the loss of their daughter for eternity. And I tried to really put myself in their shoes. But this particular event, I let my family know that I had been there after the fact. And I received a response from a family member telling me that what would people think if they saw my family with me? What would they think? And what would, what would they say if they saw me? And, and that it would.

John Dehlin [01:05:53] Because you left the church or because you had tattoos or what?

Jen Parkinson [01:05:56] I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:05:57] Both.

Jen Parkinson [01:05:58] I don't know. I think, I think a combination.

John Dehlin [01:06:01] So the family members trying to justify why you were excluded?

Jen Parkinson [01:06:04] Yes. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:06] Our parents can't afford to be seen with an apostate tattoo person with. Right.

Jen Parkinson [01:06:13] It just, I mean, it just, it can't happen. And I shared with my dad how that made me feel actually recently. And I think what, what I said, I mean, I tried to be non emotional about it and just say, you know, what doesn't make sense to me is the gospel teaches inclusivity and love and, and you know, including if I'm, if I'm wayward, if I'm the wayward lost sheep, then why are you not trying to reach out to me, to try to bring me back to the fold now, you know, I. In that. Because that's what they're being, you know, that's what I was always taught. And so why are you alienating me? Which I got a really nice response from my dad this week, just basically saying I wish we could have a do over and kind of. I think we've all told ourselves some stories and made assumptions and we maybe should try to move on, but I think there's been some hurtful damage done. I've heard from others that have experienced this. I've got a great support system at my work and I was talking with a co worker who, who had experienced this as well in a different capacity, but could relate and just said, give it time. You know, we've heard time heals all wounds and I hope that that's true. I just wonder at what point, you know, do you kind of just feel like there's too much damage But I hope that's not really the case. I love my family more than anything, and I want my children to know how wonderful my parents are and how amazing my siblings are. And I don't want to cut ties to my family in a way that would kind of not be easiest. But, I mean, it would be very painful. But it's been really hard to. My parents told me I caused a family crisis, and it's been a very painful journey for them. And I'm sure. And I've met no hurt or no harm, but it has been equally difficult for me. And this journey of transitioning away and mourning the loss of my identity for the last 39 years has also been very difficult. And, I mean, we live in a predominantly LDS neighborhood. 99.9% of our neighborhood are LDS. And it's been difficult. It's been difficult to transition away. And so. But it's been really surprising, the reaction. My dad has admitted that, you know, he said, I know we told you our love for our love was not dependent on your activity in the church. And then our actions have said differently because my sibling, who has been in and out, is now active again and fully embraced back into the family. And she caused some hurt. Hurt. And was open about her hate and disdain for the church. And then now she's back in the fold. And to me, what it looks like from my perspective is that because she's active, that's the reason why she's back in the family. I don't know if that's true. It's none of my business what my parents have worked out with my siblings and what apologies have been made or offenses that have been mended. But I've been surprised because I was so close with my family. To then have all contact basically stop. Was really surprising. I was really. I've been very surprised at the reaction and really hurt, actually, because I thought I would be different because I've been respectful.

John Dehlin [01:10:10] So that I was actually, maybe you noticed, a little bit concerned about interviewing you just because, you know, obviously I can imagine what your parents and siblings are going to think and feel when they find out you've done a public interview. And not just a public interview, but one with me. Knowing that you love your family and value them and knowing, even as you've indicated here, that you understand why they feel heartbroken and you understand the mindset that they have being sad because you had this mindset yourself at one point about other people. Why would you know what made you feel so strongly about doing this interview? Even if it meant adding additional wounds and pain to what's already a delicate situation. I don't. I'm actually not judging you. I think I just want you to speak to why you felt so passionately about speaking your truth in spite of the risks, when, you know, really want to be close to your family. Why would you still want to do this interview?

Jen Parkinson [01:11:27] I think because I would. I feel like there's a lot of parts to my story. I feel like I've had a lot of experiences over the last 15 years of my life that could potentially resonate with someone. And if my story could help one person to know that it's okay, it's okay to look for truth and to find truth in your life, whatever that looks like for you, then I would love to help one person. The podcast that you have done have truly helped me in a moment of crisis, truly knowing that it's okay to embrace everyone for who they are. And, I mean, if my parents are listening, I would love for them to know that I did not take this decision lightly, that it was not a rash decision, that I have prayed about it, that I have thought about it, that I have taken this journey and it's been a difficult one. But if there's someone else out there that can benefit from knowing that you'll make it through it. As much as it pains me, and I hope that my family can understand that, I simply want to share my story in hopes to help others to know that you're not crazy, you're not alone, that you can get out of this, and that if you choose the church, great. If you don't choose the church, great, it's okay. But that if we could all just be respectful of one another and love one another, I want to share my story in hopes that it can help anyone out there who is struggling with any part of not living a black and white Mormon life. I don't think that there's black and white anymore. And if you're out there and you're listening and you're feeling defeated because you've tried to fit into a box and you don't fit into a box, it's okay. It's okay. It's okay to be different. It's okay to be a faithful Latter Day Saint and love the LGBT community. It's okay to not look like everybody else. It's okay to question and wonder and look for truth. All of those things are okay. And I want everybody to know that it's okay where you land. And I hope my family can be Respectful of that. Where I've landed is bringing me an incredible amount of peace and joy that I didn't experience before. And that works for me. And if the gospel works for you, great. I just felt very strongly that somehow my story could help someone else. And so I felt very strongly. I mean, we talked about doing this months ago, but I didn't feel. I felt like I still had some anger and some hurt that I think might have come across, and I don't want that to come across. And I just. More than anything, I want the idea of love to resonate from my story and. And I don't know, I felt just very strongly that I needed to share it, and I hope it doesn't cause more heartache. That was never my intention. My intention is just to help others. To know that you are not alone and wherever you land is okay and love yourself through it. Just be the best you that you can be, and you will be a happy, healthy member, contributing member of society.

John Dehlin [01:15:14] What if your family happens to be listening to this? Chances are they won't listen, because that's just how it often works. But what. How would you like to see. How would you like to see your family relationships progress?

Jen Parkinson [01:15:32] You know, I would love for them to see how wonderful of a daughter. Excuse me. That they raised, because they did a good job. They did a great job. They taught me. They taught me to choose right from wrong. They taught me to work hard. They taught me to love school and to. You know, my mom. My mom's been a great example of a mom who sacrificed a lot for her children. And I want my children to know that and to see that. And I want my mom and dad and my siblings to see how wonderful my kids are. You know, our daughter just graduated high school, and it was so exciting. It was a huge deal. And I want my family to be part of that, those things. And I want them to know that I am a. I'm a good human being that is working hard, and they. They should be proud of what they did to raise me and who I've become and that I love other people and that they taught me that. And I want them to be participants in my life. My spouse is incredible. He's the best thing that ever happened to me. And I just feel like they're missing out. And I hope that we can bring it back. I don't know that it'll ever be the same. I just. I don't. I don't think it will, but, man, I think we can build a great life. I mean, there's a lot of life left in all of us, right? And I hope that they can see that I fundamentally have not changed. I'm still. I'm still funny. I'm still fun. I'm still vivacious and passionate. And I hope they can see that with time that I'm still a good human being that just wants to do good in this world.

John Dehlin [01:17:26] Amen, Jen. Well, that. That was such a powerful statement. I kind of want to. I think I kind of want to wrap up there. So before I close, any final words you want to share? Because that was beautiful.

Jen Parkinson [01:17:38] Thank you. No, I just appreciate you taking the time. And for anyone that's endured this, these three segments here, I thank you for your time. And I hope that something I've said can. Can resonate. And whether you're a true believing member of the church or you're unorthodox believing or you're not believing, I hope that some part of this can help you to know that you are a solid human being. And don't let your scars determine who you are. You just. You take those and you don't be a victim, and you just move on and brush yourself off and keep on doing you and be the best you. You can be.

John Dehlin [01:18:18] Beautiful. Jen Parkinson, everybody. Jen, thank you so much for telling your story. It's going to help so many people in so many ways. I loved it. So I just can't thank you enough for your courage in risking, you know, potential, you know, harm with your family to just try and help people. And I just hope that your family can dig deep in their Christianity and offer you unconditional love, because it seems like you and your husband and your kids just deserve to be loved and valued and honored. And I hope you and your family can find that love, mutual love for each other.

Jen Parkinson [01:19:01] Thank you. I really appreciate it.

John Dehlin [01:19:03] So everybody deserves.

Jen Parkinson [01:19:04] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:19:07] All right, well, this brings our interview to a close, so I just want to thank everyone for tuning in. I want to thank everyone for their support. Please go to MormonStories.org or our Facebook page or YouTube page to make comments or questions. Jen, hopefully you'll be available to maybe respond or share or answer questions or respond to comments.

Jen Parkinson [01:19:30] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:19:32] For those who support the Open Stories foundation and Mormon Stories, thank you. For those who don't support us financially, but who value what we do, please do consider making monthly donation, even 10 or 20, $25 a month, whatever you can afford. It's tax deductible in the US it goes towards the mission of the foundation. We're transparent in our finances. We have been from the very start. And all the money goes to creating programming like this to make people aware so they can live lives of agency, to helping the church improve and to supporting people who are transitioning either to liberal, progressive Mormonism or out of the church. That's what the mission of the Open Storage foundation is about. And please support us, because if you don't, we can't keep doing this. So thanks for everyone who supports us. Please support us if you can. Check out our events again. Dallas in July 2017. Mixed faith marriage Retreat in August. In September, we're doing Seattle. In October, we're doing Sydney, Australia. In November, we're doing San Francisco Bay Area. And these are workshops and retreats that are super highly rated. They support people in their transition. They're very affordable, and they're rated for 4.9 out of 5 in every event we've ever held. So please check them out. Go to mormonstories.org events to check them out. And Jen, you're awesome. So love to your family and please take care.

Jen Parkinson [01:21:06] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:21:08] All right, and thanks to Amy Grubbs and Cody Layton in the Open Stories foundation and our board for their support because we couldn't do it without them. Take care, everybody. Take care, Jen. Love to your family.

Jen Parkinson [01:21:20] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:21:20] All right, you guys take care. Thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org music for this episode was provided by the Lower Lights and other sources. Me whole

Jen Parkinson [01:21:50] when with the wounded heart, anger or malice I draw myself apart Searching my soul.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.