Introduction and Scope of the Presentation

John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello and welcome to my first Mormon themed screencast entitled why People Leave the LDS Church and what Family, Friends and Community Can Do About It. My name is John Dehlin. Just to tell you a little bit about me. I'm a fifth or sixth generation Mormon. I'm a descendant or relative of Ezra T. Benson, which also means I'm distant cousin of Ezra Taft Benson. Also Samuel Rose Parkinson. The P in my middle initial stands for Parkinson. I'm a lifelong member of the church, 36 years old. I'm still quite active in the church.

John Dehlin [00:00:42] I served a mission in Guatemala and also four months in Arizona, full mission, was a zone leader there in both missions. I was married in the Washington D.C. temple. I'm married with four children. I'm currently serving as Elders Quorum instructor in my ward here in North Logan in Utah, and also a former early morning seminary instructor. So I just felt like it was important to begin this presentation by letting you know that this presentation doesn't come from an anti Mormon, an ex Mormon, someone who's got it out against the church.

John Dehlin [00:01:22] Some of you might even accuse me of being a wolf in sheep's clothing. But I just want to state on the record that I'm a devoted, active member of the church, committed to making the church a better place and to doing my part within it. And I wanted to sort of get that out in front.

John Dehlin [00:01:42] Now, every year, thousands of devout members of the LDS Church leave it or go inactive. And you might want to think that these are just, you know, maybe converts that quickly fall inactive. But the truth is, many of the people I know are like me, fifth or sixth generation Mormons. They descend from prominent church leaders, including Brigham Young and Joseph Smith.

John Dehlin [00:02:06] Many of them are returned missionaries who have been married to the temple who have large families. That's sort of the profile of many of the people that are leaving the church each year, especially when they leave due to historical or doctrinal issues.

John Dehlin [00:02:25] A recent Salt Lake Tribune article highlighted very publicly what's been known in sort of the circles I've been running in for quite some time, which is that basically 2/3 of the church is inactive. So, you know, there are 4 to 5 million active members of the church, but there are 7 to 8 million inactive. In fact, they say that a third of the church, they don't even know where the people are. These people don't call themselves Mormons. They were baptized and immediately fell away.

John Dehlin [00:02:55] And so we're looking at only sort of a third to maybe 2/5 of the church membership actually being active in the church. So you know, this is something very important to keep in mind. Inactivity. There are more inactive Mormons than active Mormons both in and outside of Utah.

John Dehlin [00:03:14] It's very easy to throw labels on these people who have fallen away to say that they're sinners, that they must have some sin, they just want to drink alcohol or have illicit sex or take drugs or whatever. It's very easy to say that these people are just weak.

John Dehlin [00:03:31] Maybe they weren't as valiant in the pre existence. It's easy to say that they stopped going to the temple or they stopped reading the scriptures and that's why they fell away. Or you can just blame it on the Internet and say, oh that dang Internet. Or anti Mormon literature. They stumbled upon that and now they've left. But the truth is those are cop outs in many instances. Sometimes they may be true, but in many, many instances that I've come across, these are not what's at the core of why many people are leaving the church. And in fact, to those who have serious issues with the church, these assumptions are highly, highly insulting.

John Dehlin [00:04:07] Yet they're the ones that often seem to be offered, most often as reasons or justifications or attempts to explain why people leave. So now I'd like to sort of take a moment to answer the question, why would anyone leave the LDS Church?

Why Members Leave and What They Experience

John Dehlin [00:04:28] If you really want to help them or love them, or be their friend, or treat them in a Christlike way, you must know what they're thinking and feeling. You certainly cannot befriend them or reach them or help them if they need help, if you don't understand where they're coming from. So part of the purpose of this presentation is to give you a sense for their mindset and why people leave.

John Dehlin [00:04:53] So I'm going to give you sort of a brief synopsis of how it happens. In my experience, I will be listing some controversial or unpleasant aspects of Mormonism. And I just want to tell you up front that the only reason I'm doing it is not to just expose you to dangerous things, but if you want to help these people, you have to know where they're at, what got them to the place they're at, so that you can then work with them or talk to them or love them and just understand where they're coming from.

John Dehlin [00:05:25] In my experience, it usually happens in this way. There's some seminal event in their lives that raises an important question about Mormonism. Let's say they're called as a seminary or a gospel doctrine teacher, which was true in my case, all of a sudden they want to learn more about the church and they want to be a better teacher. So they start digging into church history.

John Dehlin [00:05:47] Or maybe they're watching some random TV show and all of a sudden it mentions Mormons in a way that they're unfamiliar. Or maybe there's some big news event that has to do with Mormonism that's pretty controversial, that makes them start asking or thinking about some questions. Or maybe they stumble across some book or magazine article that talks about Mormonism in a way they're not familiar. And of course, there's always the option of some close family or friend announcing that they're leaving the church. That can be very jolting to some and of course, stumbling upon anti Mormon literature. But there's always some sort of event that kicks off a quest for further knowledge and understanding.

John Dehlin [00:06:24] It's usually not done with the intent to leave, but instead to be a better member, to follow the admonition, to study things out in our mind, you know, to seek truth, to be lovers of truth and of wisdom.

John Dehlin [00:06:37] And that's, in my experience, how it often starts. But from there it becomes difficult. You know, some examples include a recent south park episode where it talks about the life of Joseph Smith. And while it's talking about it, it shows Joseph Smith sticking his head in a hat reading from a peep stone. And then it shows Oliver Cowdery translating. And people would ask, now what is that? Why is Joseph sticking his head in a hat? That's something, you know, I've never heard of. We'll talk about that more soon. Or maybe it's the Larry King interview where Gordon B. Hinckley comes on and Larry King asks him what the church's view is on polygamy.

John Dehlin [00:07:17] And Gordon B. Hinckley answers, it's not doctrinal. You know, for many within the church who heard that statement, it was a shock. Or, you know, when Larry King asked President Hinckley, you know, what's your thoughts on God once being a man? And President Hinckley's response was something to the effect of, oh, well, I don't know much about that. I don't know that we teach it. I don't know that we emphasize it. You know, for the average Mormon who's grown up in the church, statements like that can be very shocking and confusing.

John Dehlin [00:07:47] Or the recent Newsweek article that says things like mentioning the printing press that was destroyed. Most people probably don't know about the Nauvoo Expositor and the printing press that was destroyed as a precursor to Joseph's incarceration in Carthage in his martyrdom. Or maybe many people, including me, don't know that Joseph Smith had 30 wives. I didn't learn this until I was 30 years old after a lifetime in the church, and that he had massive debts and hundreds of enemies.

John Dehlin [00:08:18] We don't learn about Joseph's weaknesses in church, and so when we read about it in a magazine, all of a sudden it can become troublesome. Another quote was from this article, was that decades of serious and honest scholarship have failed to uncover credible evidence that these Book of Mormon civilizations ever existed. Which is a quote from Simon Sotherton. But the point isn't that these are smoking guns that say the church isn't true, but what they are are things that Mormons often don't hear in church, hear throughout their lives. And when they hear it for the first time in mainstream media or outside the church, it becomes shocking and sends them on a quest to learn more, you know, news events.

John Dehlin [00:09:02] One example is the Mark Hoffman affair, where, you know, an ingenious young man who was also quite diabolical is able to fool Boyd K. Packer and Spence W. Kimball and Gordon B. Hinckley and forge documents, convince the Brethren, who we would all expect to have extra special powers of premonition and of being good judges of character and having the spirit of discernment, which is an unfair expectation probably, but we do expect it. And we ask why they weren't more in tune with the Holy Ghost to know that Mark Hoffman was a fraud and to keep the two murders that happened from happening. So those are, you know, that's another type of event that would set someone off with questions.

John Dehlin [00:09:45] And of course, Elder Oaks himself has acknowledged that, that the Brethren were fooled. And you know, one very classic way that people start on this quest is by just reading church history. The Journal of Discourses is full of quotes that I think the church is frankly embarrassed about. Now, whether it's Brigham Young's racist quotes or his teachings of Adam, God theory or blood atonement, these are teachings that we've distanced ourselves from officially as a church.

John Dehlin [00:10:19] And we de emphasize and even try and say that we don't believe these things anymore. And of course, a book like Fawn Brody's no Man Knows My History, written By David Owen McKay's niece, viewed by many as one of the most important biographies of Joseph Smith, can just do sincere damage to your view of Joseph Smith relative to how you sort of viewed him when you were growing up.

John Dehlin [00:10:48] So once these seminal events occur In a Mormon's life, you know, one of the first things they do now on the Internet is go to Google and they type in some questions. And of course, as soon as they do, you know, there are several websites that are there ready to talk about these issues. Unfortunately, none of them are the church websites because the church doesn't really like to deal with these issues in any depth. So there are no official church responses on these issues that are in any way substantive. There are some apologetic sites, and sometimes those are helpful, but for many people, apologetic techniques just don't work.

John Dehlin [00:11:28] They turn people off and even make them feel the church is less credible. So where they often turn are ex Mormon or anti Mormon sites where people have a lot of anger, sometimes justifiably so, a lot of frustration.

John Dehlin [00:11:45] And that's sort of what leads them to quickly want to leave the church and ask to have their records removed from the church. If I had to sort of explain or summarize what happened in this quest. We Mormons oftentimes are taught, growing up throughout our entire lives, that the world is black and white, that there is bad in the world and good. And anything you come across in the world can be put in one of those two categories. The world is either black or it is white. It is a very simple point of view, and that is how we see it. Prophets, good. Scriptures, perfect.

John Dehlin [00:12:24] The church, good, perfect. Everything is under control. General authority is inspired, and everything is either good or bad. And other churches bad. Other scriptures that aren't ours, bad. And that's sort of how we see the world. Non Mormons not as good as Mormons. Our church true. All other churches false.

John Dehlin [00:12:46] And once a Mormon starts digging into this history and the culture, we realize that there is such a thing as a prophet who has made major mistakes. There is such a thing as a church that has made major mistakes. There is such a thing as scriptures that have flaws, even LDS scriptures that have flaws. And all of a sudden they start seeing the world for the first time in shades and degrees and color. And it is quite a complex new worldview. And what you see between these two images is a huge gap.

John Dehlin [00:13:23] And that gap is dramatic and it's shocking. And this is sort of what someone who's left the church experiences. Their whole world crumbles and they see the world in a different light for the very first time. It doesn't have to be a bad thing. But if there aren't the right supports and role models, for example, to be there when they go through this, it can have disastrous consequences. For them, for their family, etc.

John Dehlin [00:13:54] So when their world falls apart, what do they do? Now, what I'd like to do is give you an introduction to the major issues that the average person leaves the church over. And I want to make three disclaimers about it.

John Dehlin [00:14:12] Everything I show you here can be easily substantiated through church publications. So I'm not bringing up a bunch of stuff that's found just in people who hated the prophet, and so they wrote bad things about them that are lies.

John Dehlin [00:14:27] I did my best to create this presentation only from stuff that can be substantiated through church publications, through the Ensign, through Times and Seasons, through Millennial Star, through the journal Discourses, through official church publications. So most of the stuff the apostles and prophets themselves have acknowledged and found some way to try and defend. So know that at the outset.

John Dehlin [00:14:53] Also know that this is not an exercise in me blaming the brethren, saying that they are bad, saying that I am better than them, or no more than the Brethren. Most of these issues I don't lay at the feet of the brethren, but instead with the general membership or frankly, with just humanity and the flaws of people.

John Dehlin [00:15:11] But I just wanted to sort of get that out in the open. And then finally, nothing in this entire presentation do I believe is a smoking gun that proves that the church is not true or not inspired by God. Not one thing here. So know that even though I'm showing you, I'm about to show you some really hard things. To me, none of this stuff should be viewed as, like I said, a smoking gun.

John Dehlin [00:15:35] So what I learned growing up in the church about Joseph Smith, he was a pure and innocent boy, so strong and noble that when he was having major surgery on his leg, he turned down alcohol. He saw God and Jesus in the sacred grove. He translated the Book of Mormon using the Urim and Thummim.

John Dehlin [00:15:55] He had one wife, Emma. I had never heard of any other wife that Joseph had in my entire young and adult life. And of course, that he was falsely accused and persecuted several times, went to the jail in Carthage like a lamb to the slaughter. And ultimately, no other man has done more for the salvation of others than Joseph Smith, save Jesus Christ.

John Dehlin [00:16:23] Once you start studying church history and church documents, you find out that the history and the facts tell us additional things. So aside from all the good stuff that we know about Joseph, we also learn some things that are quite shocking. For example, that in his youth, he used a magical peep stone to help people try and find buried treasure. There are many sources for this he admitted it himself. This is not, not speculation. This is fact. And any reputable historian or credible church authority will acknowledge that this is true.

John Dehlin [00:16:56] And you know, I know that when you were growing up, you likely heard that there were court cases that Joseph was involved in. Oftentimes, you know, at least a few of these court cases were because, you know, people were prosecuting Joseph for activities that were viewed as illegal, like, like treasure seeking or mysticism or black magic or whatever it was called in the day. I am not an expert here, but this is something that people are not taught growing up. And so it is often hard for them to learn for the first time.

John Dehlin [00:17:30] The first vision itself has several different versions. So the first time Joseph told or wrote down the first vision story, he only mentioned that he saw Christ, and he didn't mentioned God the Father and two personages, and he didn't mention that he was told to start a new church. He just said that they had to talk about his worthiness, etc.

John Dehlin [00:17:52] And as the story gets told over the 10 or 15 years after he started writing it down, you will see that it evolves, it enhances and changes. And while there are people who have tried to make really good explanations for that, these differences are significant in my view, and are at least sort of something that would cause someone to question or wonder why he didn't get that story right the first time and keep it consistent throughout, especially when it was such an important event.

John Dehlin [00:18:26] You know, you also learn, just like from that south park episode, that the traditional way that we've been taught, that Joseph translated the Book of Mormon, which is sitting behind a veil with a Urim and Thummimon with the plates in front of him. Translating character by character is not the way that those who are in the room with him say that he actually did it, especially during the Oliver Cowdery portions of the translation. Instead, what even Russell M. Nelson himself has acknowledged is that Joseph took that same peep stone that he used to find treasure, buried treasure, stuck it in a hat, stuck his face in the hat, and would then read off the Book of Mormon without the plates even being in the room.

John Dehlin [00:19:11] And this is pretty much accepted as fact now by those who understand the translation process. So that's a shocker. Why did he have the plates if he wasn't going to use them in the translation process? Why was he sticking his head in a hat? No one's ever told me that before. Yet that is the way it happened.

John Dehlin [00:19:29] Not that this is a smoking gun, because the word of Wisdom wasn't made really law in the church until the 20th century. But Joseph Smith drank beer and wine as an adult. He even drank wine the night before he was martyred in Carthage. He says this in his own journal.

John Dehlin [00:19:46] It is also shocking to find out that Joseph had 30 wives. If you go to familysearch.org, which is the church's genealogical website, it acknowledges that some of these wives were actually married to other men at the time that he was sealed to them and these men were living. So imagine if I went to someone else's wife and said, will you marry me? Don't tell your husband.

John Dehlin [00:20:12] Imagine what that would be like. And that's sort of what the data show. These are facts. Also, several of these women were teenagers. And you kind of wonder why Joseph was marrying 14 year old girls, for example. Also, you find out that throughout his entire time of practicing polygamy, whenever he was asked publicly if he was practicing polygamy, he denied it.

John Dehlin [00:20:38] I'm pretty sure Elder Oaks has acknowledged that this is a fact. It's in church publications. So in essence, Joseph Smith did not tell the truth about the fact that he is practicing polygamy. That is disturbing to many people.

John Dehlin [00:20:51] And of course, when a second counselor in the First Presidency actually left the church and created a newspaper telling the world that Joseph was in fact lying and he was practicing polygamy, Joseph ordered that the printing press be destroyed.

John Dehlin [00:21:14] And that's what led to him being put in jail in Carthage, which ultimately led to his martyrdom. So these are facts, and they're quite different from the standard story we hear growing up. None of them prove that Joseph Smith wasn't inspired by God, but they certainly are quite shocking. And you can bet that your Mormon friend or family member who's left the church has come across most of these issues.

John Dehlin [00:21:39] So how about scripture in the Book of Mormon? You know, we learned that the Book of Mormon is the most correct book on earth. It was found in Hill Cumorah in New York, where it was buried by Moroni. We learned that it is a history of Native Americans of Central, south and North America and even the Pacific Islands.

John Dehlin [00:21:56] And we know that the Book of Abraham was translated from a papyrus that Joseph Smith got, I believe in Kirtland. You know, that's what we know about the scriptures, Mormon scriptures. Well, the facts are quite interesting. We find out in reality that there have been over 4,000 changes made to the Book of Mormon since it was created. A lot of them are minor, but some of them are quite significant.

John Dehlin [00:22:24] People have tried to pay attention to the geography in the Book of Mormon with the narrow neck of land and the waters of. And all the other issues surrounding how long it took people to march places and settle places. No one's ever been able to find any geography that really credibly maps to what's in the Book of Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:22:45] Cumorah. We know that Joseph Smith got the plates from the hill Cumorah in New York, but it doesn't really seem to jive with the geography. Where's the narrow neck of land? Where are the waters of Mormon? You know, it certainly probably wasn't around New York and most of the civilization that we know about that built temples and all sorts of things the Book of Mormon described as in Central America. But there's no way that Moroni lugged plates that were £150 all the way up to New York by himself walking to bury them there. So, of course, apostles and others have tried to say that there were maybe two cumorahs, et cetera, et cetera.

John Dehlin [00:23:27] But the truth is, this starts to sound a little bit sketchy. And then you think about all the anachronisms in the Book of Mormon. Anachronisms meaning something being out of place chronologically. So an example would be in a movie about the 18th century. If they had airplanes in a movie in the 1700s, that would be out of place. Well, there are lots of things in the Book of Mormon that, when taken on face value, are chronologically out of place.

▶ Video Clip 1

Video Clip 1 [00:23:55] Steel was never invented by the Native Americans. Yet the Book of Mormon mentions steel. Steel swords and armor, etc. All the bones for the millions of soldiers who were died and killed. Where are they? Why haven't we found piles and piles and piles of bones? We certainly have in Europe and Asia. Why not in America? We know that horses were not found anywhere in the United States, in the world, in Central, south or North America before the Spaniards came here, it was the Spaniards who brought horses. They did not find the Aztecs or the Mayas or the Incas on horses. There just weren't any. Elephants haven't existed on the American continents since 10,000 B.C.

Video Clip 1 [00:24:44] as I understand it, there certainly wasn't any steel. And if there was steel, why haven't we found the swords and the helmets and the breastplates for the millions of soldiers who killed each other? Yet not one steel sword or breastplate, etc. Has been found.

Video Clip 1 [00:25:00] Why is that? Barley and wheat, for example, were domesticated in Europe and have sophisticated methods to grow them. None of that stuff was here yet. The Book of Mormon mentions it being used, a seven day calendar, etc. All these things are sort of out of place. And so it makes you wonder in the Book of Mormon why those things are there.

Video Clip 1 [00:25:22] Many of you have probably heard of the DNA controversies, those who have sort of done DNA tests on Native Americans. Over 95% of the DNA test of the people tested, Native Americans tested show that their lineage goes straight to Asia, meaning they crossed the Bering Strait, not came over on a boat from Israel and were Israelites. And so now we've backed off. For 150 years, the general authorities have called the Native Americans Lamanites. And now we don't do that anymore because we really don't know if they're Lamanites. And we're starting to say that the Book of Mormon happened maybe in a very small part of America and we don't know quite where.

Video Clip 1 [00:26:02] But then how did millions and millions of people show up? So these are very important questions that are fair questions. They are not just nitpicky trying to find fault in the church, but they are legitimate questions that call into question for many the historicity or the authenticity of the Book of Mormon.

Video Clip 1 [00:26:23] And finally, there was a book that was written when Oliver Cowdery was still living back in his hometown by a preacher. And this book was called A View of the Hebrews. And while no one claims that the Book of Mormon was taken word for word or even in large chunks from the view of the Hebrews, it's very interesting to note that this book, View of the Hebrews claimed basically that a group of people left Israel and sailed to America in a boat and started civilizations in America, and that there were good and bad tribes within America that fought each other and that these Israelis became the inhabitants and the ancestors of the current modern day American Indians.

Video Clip 1 [00:27:10] You know, why was this book written five or ten years before the Book of Mormon? You know, things like this cause people who are credible just trying to understand truth to ask these questions. And of course, finally, the Book of Abraham, Experts now agree, including Hugh Nibley, that the Book of Abraham is not a translation from the papyrus that Joseph Smith had. Instead, those papyrus were funeral texts that were used whenever someone died in Egypt. But everyone, including LDS scholars who have read them, agree that there is really no significant correlation between the papyrus and what Joseph produced as the Book of Abraham.

Video Clip 1 [00:27:59] So this is shocking stuff to find out for the first time, especially when you have been a member of the church your whole life. How about church leadership? We are told to follow the Prophet, that the prophet talks with God, that the words of modern prophets are scripture, and that when the brethren have spoken, the discussion ends. You know, we're told that Bruce Alberkonki's book Mormon Doctrine was just that, Mormon doctrine.

Video Clip 1 [00:28:24] We're told that LDS general authorities are among the most righteous people in the world, or at least that's how we're raised culturally to feel. And the history and facts tell us that this isn't always the case. In spite of having some great leaders who have been great inspired men and women, they have not been perfect. We all know that Brigham Young taught, for example, that Adam was God and that God was Adam. This was called the Adam God Theory. And he taught it all through the Journal Discourses. And it's something that we no longer teach or really believe as a church. He taught that blood atonement, that the best thing you can do for someone who's committed certain types of sins is kill them on the spot, and that that's a favor that you can do for somebody if they've committed certain sins.

Video Clip 1 [00:29:08] One of those sins being a white person marrying a black person, he felt that that was punishable by death. We all know that. You know, if we've read the Journal Discourses and if you saw the previous slide, that Brigham Young was racist and he said some horrible things about black people, including the fact that they would never ever receive the president priesthood in this life until the millennium.

Video Clip 1 [00:29:34] As far as the Journal Discourses go, we as a church have completely distanced ourselves from them. You won't see many quotes from the Journal Discourses in modern church curricula. In fact, as I understand it, at Salt Lake, the editors and the writers of church manuals have been told use the Journal of Discourses only as a last result.

Video Clip 1 [00:29:56] And so we're distancing ourselves from that. Those who have studied how we've handled church history can say without being unfair, that we've been less than candid. It's not that we've hidden everything, it's not that we've lied, but we certainly haven't been open and up front about our history as a church.

Video Clip 1 [00:30:16] There have been many changes. This notion that the church is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow and forever is not true. Major teachings have been changed, including polygamy. It was once taught that polygamy was a requirement for the celestial kingdom and an eternal law. And now we are being told that it is not doctrinal. I know that there are explanations for that, but the truth is polygamy is doctrinal it is being practiced today in Mormon temples when someone's spouse dies and they remarry.

Video Clip 1 [00:30:49] Plural marriages happen in the Mormon temple today with those who are marrying someone whose former spouse passed away. Also blacks. It was once taught that blacks would never receive the priesthood and now we don't even talk about how they were unworthy in the preexistence, etc.

Video Clip 1 [00:31:11] We have even read in recent publications that David O. McKay believed that the ban on the blacks was actually church policy, but not church doctrine. You know, these are mind blowing major shifts in perspective that a Mormon confronts.

Video Clip 1 [00:31:29] We've read recently about how the book Mormon Doctrine was received with anger by the First Presidency by David O. McKay, that he was furious that Bruce R. McConkie called at Mormon Doctrine, that he commissioned a study that found over 1,000 errors in the book, that Elder McConkie was punished and censured for doing it, and that a rule was created as a result from then on saying that no general authority could publish a book without church permission. And he was told not to ever publish the book again. And in fact the Brethren seriously considered publicly censuring him and decided not to because they didn't want to undermine the authority or the mantle of the general authority.

Video Clip 1 [00:32:13] You know, that's shocking to find out because many of us used that book for years and years and years as being doctrine, as being the gospel. Of course, most of you are familiar with Paul H. Dunn, who was a general authority, who while being a good man, claimed that he was a professional baseball player when he wasn't and claimed that he fought in World War II in ways that he didn't and basically made a lot of money and got a lot of fame out of telling stories that were faith promoting but not true. George P. Lee was excommunicated. He was a general authority, a Native American general authority.

Video Clip 1 [00:32:48] Richard Lyman was an apostle in the 40s who was excommunicated for adultery. So you know, church leaders are not perfect. They make mistakes, sometimes really big ones. The Mark Hoffman case. We've already talked about how the Brethren were deceived and fooled. And then we could enumerate a decent list of abuses that have happened within the church from not dealing with sexual harassment or sexual abuse appropriately, either stake presidents or bishops or whoever actually performing the abuse or covering it up, etc.

Video Clip 1 [00:33:26] All sorts of baptismal abuses that have happened, including the baseball baptisms of the early 60s in Great Britain, to the soccer baptisms that I experienced on my mission in Guatemala, and ecclesiastical abuses as well. I don't mean to be saying all this, to say the church is bad and ugly and nasty. It's just that you don't really get exposed to this until you start studying in depth. And then once you do, the chasm between what you thought and what actually is is just really wide.

Questions About Church Doctrine and History

Video Clip 1 [00:33:57] Finally, what about church doctrine? Is it the same yesterday, today and forever? Is it straight from God to the prophets? What about the Word of Wisdom? What about the temple ceremony? Well, as I mentioned before, it is quite shocking to hear that on the issue of men becoming gods and vice versa, that President Hinckley would say, I don't know that we teach it. I don't know that we emphasize it on polygamy, say it was not doctrinal to find out that the Word of Wisdom wasn't a commandment until the early 1900s, that many past prophets and apostles drank alcohol and used tobacco, including Brigham Young's son, who was an apostle, that Joseph Smith had a bar in his mansion, drank wine the night before he was murdered.

Video Clip 1 [00:34:42] You know, these are things that we're not told and it's shocking to find them out. And then finally, those of us who went through the temple before 1990 know that there were some, many, there were many disturbing elements of the temple ceremony that were shocking and caused many people to never want to return to the temple after the first time they went. A lot of these things had been removed. And so it begs the question, why is an ordinance that is supposed to be given directly from God changing so dramatically and why were such disturbing things included at all?

Video Clip 1 [00:35:20] So again, I want to just emphasize this very, very strongly. Yes, I've listed a lot of things that are shocking or disturbing about the church to some. But I want to tell you that I have a personal conviction that nothing that I've mentioned today proves that the church is evil or satanic or false.

Video Clip 1 [00:35:39] And many of this stuff does not bother me at all and has very reasonable explanations. So my point isn't to cast stones or dispersions on the church. I'm just trying to get you to think about what your loved one is going through right now.

John Dehlin [00:35:59] And I want you to think about what the gap is between what they were taught, what their understanding was growing up in the church, and then what they've recently discovered. The gap is huge and it's very troubling and disturbing. So how do they feel when they discover all this?

John Dehlin [00:36:18] They feel stunned, they feel betrayed, they feel lied to, they feel like a cover up has been done. They feel disgusted and they feel very angry. They start thinking about all the tithing they paid. They start thinking about all the times they went to the temple, all the proxy work they did. They start thinking about all the sacrifices and all the callings and how much they gave to the church to discover that things were just so dramatically different.

John Dehlin [00:36:52] It's a hard thing to go through something that is very difficult and hopefully is worth a lot of empathy and understanding. Once this happens to you, you never look at Joseph Smith the same way again. You never look at Scripture the same way again. You don't look at the church as you used to in terms of its being infallible. You never think of priesthood authority in the same way.

John Dehlin [00:37:21] You can still respect them, but whether you follow them blindly, it's a totally different matter. And for many people, their entire religious world falls apart. And not only the church comes into question, but Christ comes into question and God himself comes into question.

John Dehlin [00:37:41] People are fundamentally changed relative to the gospel when they experience these historical events, doctrinal issues. And when you are dealing with them, you have to understand that you can't just pull the car to follow the brethren or read your Book of Mormon or do what the brethren say or listen to the Holy Ghost, because their entire worldview has just fallen apart into shambles in many instances.

John Dehlin [00:38:11] So you have to keep that in mind as you are dealing with them, because that's sort of the way it works. Now, how do we as a church tend to deal with these people who have these problems and decide to leave or fall inactive? We fear them.

John Dehlin [00:38:30] It's like they have leprosy and we want to stay away from them. We give them labels that are very unproductive, anti Mormon, ex Mormon, apostate, dangerous, ark steadiers. The labels go on and on and on. We literally cease communication with them.

John Dehlin [00:38:47] We ostracize and distance ourselves from them. And you got to think about this for a second. These people have had their entire religious world fall apart. And in a religion that is supposed to be the one true church, the one that is supposed to follow Christ's teachings, not only do they have to deal with the. The emotional turmoil of having their world fall apart, but they see all these people who are supposed to be Christians, treat them in the least possible Christlike manner. You have to understand that this doesn't just make them sad about the church, it makes them hate the church. It makes them want to go after the church.

John Dehlin [00:39:24] It turns them into some of the most rabid, mean spirited, anti Mormon people you could ever find. Because all of a sudden you Know all the goodness that you would assume or ascribe to God's people all of a sudden vanishes and people are treated inhumanely. What are the results?

John Dehlin [00:39:46] Marriages become challenged and threatened and often divorce happens because the church is put above the family. Families can dissolve. Children no longer have a mother or a father. These people lose, in many instances, especially within Utah, their entire relationships within their community.

John Dehlin [00:40:07] And some people even suffer job loss as a result, which is a travesty as well. We have to ask ourselves as Christians, as members of the Church of Jesus Christ, what did Jesus do when he came up with instances like this? Well, Jesus actually caught a lot of flack for associating with people that weren't mainstream Jews.

John Dehlin [00:40:32] He was railed upon for having dinner with the publicans, for example, when the adulteress was being attacked by all the churchgoers and the religious. He defended her and attacked them. Very interesting. He encouraged us to go after the one and to leave the 99 to go rescue that one person. He taught us to go the extra mile and even carry their backpacks as we go, taught us to turn the other cheek. And most importantly, he just listened and he loved people.

John Dehlin [00:41:07] This is the only credible way to handle these situations. Yet it's the most, for some reason, counterintuitive to the average Mormon and it's the opposite of what they most most often do. So one point I have to stress is we are not treating those who have left the church in a Christlike manner or those who are struggling with the church. We are treating them, in many instances, completely unchristlike. And it is doing damage to us and it is doing incredible damage to them and to the church.

How to Support Those Who Are Leaving

John Dehlin [00:41:44] Now this naturally leads to the question of how to help. And so first I have to offer some things that we should not do. We should not fear these people, we should not judge them, we should not distance ourselves from them or ostracize them. That is the absolute worst thing we can possibly do. And we should certainly not make them a project.

John Dehlin [00:42:11] There's this philosophical notion of I it versus I thou. I it is a relationship where I treat you like a thing, like an object. So instead of a person, you're an it, you're an object. And I have a goal for you. I want to change you in some way. I want to make you into a way that helps me or benefits me or makes me feel better. It's doing your home teaching because it's the end of the month.

John Dehlin [00:42:39] It is reading the scriptures just because you were told to and just Sort of running through them. And most importantly, it is saying to someone who is struggling with the church, I am going to have you as a project and get it so that you are back in the church again. That is an I it objectified relationship.

John Dehlin [00:42:58] In my opinion, more instances than not, it is doomed to failure. The other type of relationship that's worth mentioning is the I thou relationship. And what that says is, I'm a person, you're a person, I respect you deeply, I want what's best for you.

John Dehlin [00:43:16] We are equals. I'm your friend, I love you. Let's go on this journey together and see how we can help each other. And that is the only paradigm that we can take with our brethren who have fallen away, urban excommunication or have left that will ever be effective. We need to decide up front we are going to be their friends no matter what, at any cost, because we love them, genuinely empathize with what they've been through, used to be their friends, and decide that we want to continue being their friends.

John Dehlin [00:43:47] One of the worst things we can ever do is pressure or guilt trip people into coming back because that will backfire. And finally, trying to justify a lot of these historical or doctrinal things and practice what I'll call bad apologetics is disastrous. For example, to talk about Fawn Brody's book and say that she was a lesbian. Or to talk about Michael Quinn and say, oh, he wrote these bad books, but he's gay and so that's why he did it. Or to try and explain away, well, when they said steal in the Book of Mormon, they really meant an amalgam of these different types of men.

John Dehlin [00:44:24] Metals. It's easily biodegradable. There are all sorts of ways that we can perform bad apologetics. Trying to apologize and in many instances explain away these credible issues that make it look like we're hiding something, make it look like we're irrational, make it look like we'll do anything to justify and to explain away something that's credible. I believe that bad apologetics can injure more testimonies than anti Mormon literature.

John Dehlin [00:44:58] In fact, I've heard people say that bad apologetics do more to harm testimonies than anything else within Mormon literature. So these are some things not to do with your loved one who is leaving or has left the church.

John Dehlin [00:45:14] Now, what are some things you can do? The first thing you can do is validate and acknowledge what they've been through. You can say, man, I totally understand. I struggle with those things too. You totally have merit in the things you feel, your feelings are valid. I validate them. You can empathize with them. You can show them unconditional love. You can say to them, I don't care if you ever come back to the church, I want you to know that I will always, always love you and always be your friend. And I embrace you because I respect you and I admire you and I know you're trying to do what's right.

John Dehlin [00:45:50] You can create genuine friendships with these people not that are tied to their church status, but instead are tied to them being human and you being human. Like I mentioned before, you can provide open forums where you listen and you learn and you don't shut off the conversation. You say, what are the things that bug you? And you don't try and explain them all the way. You just listen and say, wow, I understand. You will not believe how impactful it can be to somebody just to have someone else listen to them.

John Dehlin [00:46:20] One thing that we all ought to think about is how we can instigate a broader education of the membership on these historical and cultural issues. Because it's very hard to go to church and hear about Brigham Young's wife when he had 50, or however many he had, or Joseph Smith's wife, or that Joseph Smith turned down alcohol when you knew that he did drink alcohol all throughout his life, and on and on and on. The Book of Mormon is the most correct book in the world when you know that there are a lot of errors. So it's very important that members get up to speed on these issues.

John Dehlin [00:47:00] To say that Joseph was completely innocent when he was put to Carthage jail is not true. He lied about practicing polygamy. He ordered the destruction of a printing press, which is the destruction of private property. Some try to explain that away, but the truth is you cannot say that he was completely innocent. You can't. And so, you know, it's very hard for someone who's struggling to go to church and hear those things.

John Dehlin [00:47:29] In terms of leaders, I've heard of leaders knowing about people who are struggling with their testimony so they find them callings where those callings will be beneficial to the person and to the church. So, for example, let someone be elders, quorum teacher, but say to them, hey, the things that you're not comfortable teaching, we totally support you not teaching them and emphasizing the things that you feel good about, etc. Or Boy Scout calling or whatever calling is edifying to both.

John Dehlin [00:48:01] One of the most important things that we could ever do is provide positive role models. There are hundreds and even Thousands of people on this planet who know all these issues about Mormonism but still retain testimonies or decide to stay in it. And it's very important to match these people up with those people. Now, one thing that's unfortunate is that at some point, the church started feeling uncomfortable with groups like Sunstone and Dialogue and started warning people to stay away from symposia and started excommunicating members of these groups and started telling their employees not to support soundstone or Dialogue anymore. And what this did is it caused many of those people who had done the work to reconcile all these issues with their faith.

John Dehlin [00:48:46] It drove them out of the church or drove them into the underground, and it made them so scared that they don't talk anymore openly about things. And so that's unfortunate that that happened. I can't say that's all the church's fault. I think that some of those organizations shared in the blame for sort of getting a little bit too far off on the edge.

John Dehlin [00:49:06] But providing positive role models can be an essential element to staving off these people's inactivities. And ultimately, we have to just simply respect the free agency of these people and not do it as a threat. Like, okay, you can do what you want, but you better realize the consequences of what you're deciding. That's one of the most disastrous attitudes we can take with these people. We ultimately have to just say, we love you, we accept you unconditionally. We want your happiness.

John Dehlin [00:49:39] If your happiness is leaving the church, then I support you. But if you ever want to stay or come back, I know that I am here to help you. But either way, I love you, I am your friend.

John Dehlin [00:49:50] These are some of the things that I offer as ways to help these people and yourself, frankly. And I would like to end with just a few messages for those who have decided to completely leave the church. And the one point I'll start out with is the. Is perfection or even the lack of major flaws the measure that we should hold up as our affiliation, as our guidelines for affiliation with an organization or with our relationships with other people?

Keeping Perspective and Moving Forward

John Dehlin [00:50:31] And what I mean by that is, let's say you leave the Mormon Church tomorrow. Are you going to find a better church, really? A church that doesn't have issues that are just as significant or even more significant? And it's not just with church.

John Dehlin [00:50:47] Can you name a government here in the world that doesn't have major flaws or weaknesses? Does that mean we should all renounce our citizenships globally? Can you name a business that doesn't have ethical problems or violations yet, are we still willing to work for those businesses? And you can even take it to marriages or families. Perfection is just pretty darn hard to find in this world. And even lack of serious flaws is quite hard to find. And so if we're to hold up this expectation that, that we're only going to affiliate ourselves or remain members to something that lacks major flaws, will we become an island?

John Dehlin [00:51:29] Will we become devoid of any relationships or affiliations? You know, something to think about. Also philosophically, this is something Levi Peterson told me once. Do we ever have an obligation when we're in an organization that is struggling or has problems?

John Dehlin [00:51:52] Do we ever have an obligation ethically instead of just abandoning it to stick around and make it better? I tend to think that we do. And most importantly, there are many people in this church that are struggling with the same issues that we're having.

John Dehlin [00:52:11] Suffering in silence, not able to leave, but not feeling good about staying either. And these people frankly need help, need friends, need role models as well. And to just pack up and leave is in many ways to leave these people in a very miserable, sad state.

John Dehlin [00:52:32] I want you to know that there are many people who know all of these issues, don't explain them away using bad apologetics, but instead remain faithful. And so that doesn't mean that you should sort of follow the Joneses, but you should know that there are many people who know more than you do, but have decided that it's good and right to stay. And it's just something to keep in mind. Another thing that I'll add is our church in modern times puts an unhealthy emphasis on things being true. True means absolutely of God and the one true and the only true.

John Dehlin [00:53:16] I would consider that there is nothing wrong with not thinking about true meaning it is better than everyone else or the only one sanctioned by God. If you are uncomfortable with that terminology, there is nothing wrong with just saying is the church good? Is it a net positive? Is it a net positive in your life?

John Dehlin [00:53:39] And instead of asking what is true and ordained of God? Because what is the one true government? What is the one true business, the one true marriage, the one true religion? You may have a hard time if you are expecting some type of God directly involved, semi flawless organization.

John Dehlin [00:53:59] What if you just set your standard for what's good? What's going to be a positive influence in your life? What's going to be good for you and your family? What's going to bring you and your loved ones the most joy that's a standard that I think is worth considering.

John Dehlin [00:54:15] Another instance that is important to me I don't look to the church as a place to be fulfilled all the time and to get all my needs met. Often times I do have many important needs met and I am served by my fellow church members, but I look at the church as an incredible place to serve other people.

John Dehlin [00:54:36] Where else am I going to get to know my neighbors in my community in a way that otherwise I would somewhat tend to be isolated and just keep to myself within my own home? The church is an incredible place to find out who is having a baby and needs a meal, who is sick and needs to be comforted, what service projects are available, how to help other people in a disaster, how to just get to know struggling youth, etc. And who knows, someday you may even be helped in a time of desperate need by the same community that you've developed. And I acknowledge that there are plenty of ways to serve outside of the church, but I found the church to be a dang good place.

John Dehlin [00:55:19] Finally, probably the last point that I want to just leave with you is that there is nothing wrong with deciding that you can be a Mormon on your own terms. And what I mean by that is some of the commandments and some of the beliefs and some of the doctrines you follow wholeheartedly and other things you just say, that is not for me, I am not going to follow that, or I am going to follow that in a moderated way, or take my own spin on that doctrine or teaching or commandment or expectation.

John Dehlin [00:55:47] Because in reality, every single Mormon at their core ends up being a Mormon on their own terms. Whether it is by commission or omission, none of us follows all the teachings of the Church and all the commandments of the church perfectly. So since none of us reaches perfection, maybe there's nothing wrong with us just admitting that none of us are perfect and that we're going to go ahead and follow the things that we can or feel good about and leave some other things behind that we don't.

John Dehlin [00:56:21] So that's sort of my presentation today. I hope you've found it helpful. For those of you who have loved ones who are leaving or have left the church, I encourage you just to love them and to try and follow some of these ideas and tactics when you are dealing with them. And for those of you who are struggling with the church and wondering whether you want to leave or if you have left, I want to sort of follow my own advice and just tell you, seek for happiness, seek for joy, but make sure that you don't follow after paths of greater sadness and unhappiness.

John Dehlin [00:57:00] Find ways to serve others, because that sort of becomes that's sort of what this life is all about, is finding ways to help and serve other people and to find love and joy within your personal relationships, your family relationships, and your community relationships. So I thank you for taking your time to listen. Please feel free to email me at MormonStories, or come up to my blog site or whatever@mormonstories.org and please let me know your thoughts and feelings.

John Dehlin [00:57:36] This is the first draft of this presentation, so if there are inaccuracies or advice you have for how to make it better, I'd love to find out about it. But all in all, I wish all of you joy and happiness and meaning and fulfillment in your life. And I thank you for.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.