Welcome and Introduction to the Symposium

John Dehlin [00:00:04] For those of you to make sure you're in the place you want to be, this is the Sunstone Symposium in Seattle. If this was not your intent to be at Sunstone, you may want.

John Dehlin [00:00:15] Yeah, welcome anyway.

John Dehlin [00:00:17] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:00:18] You're always welcome.

John Dehlin [00:00:20] My name is John Dehlin. I'm from Logan, Utah, and they tell me that I'm the executive director of Sunstone.

John Dehlin [00:00:31] I was voted into that position in August, I guess, or sometime close thereabouts.

John Dehlin [00:00:40] I actually spent seven years here in

John Dehlin [00:00:43] Seattle, living in Kalahani when I worked for Microsoft. So it's fun to be back. This is my second time to Sunstone Seattle.

John Dehlin [00:00:52] My interest in Mormon studies began as

John Dehlin [00:00:55] I was leaving Seattle, so I didn't even know that Sunstone was going on during the seven years I lived here. How many of you have been here to the symposium before? And how many of you are new first timers?

Guest [00:01:08] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:01:09] Well, you're all very welcome. Thank you for coming.

Disclaimers and Framing the Question

John Dehlin [00:01:14] I want to begin with a few disclaimers. You know, implicit in the question tonight

John Dehlin [00:01:22] is that some people may want to stay. But I just want to make it clear that I don't want to make

John Dehlin [00:01:32] the assumption that staying is right for everyone. I get a lot of heat for

John Dehlin [00:01:36] that, as I've given this speech a few times, because there are people who just say the church doesn't work for them and they don't want to feel like they're being judged for their decision to leave. And so that's not what this is all about. This is just about.

John Dehlin [00:01:49] Most importantly, what I found with the 300 or 400 people I've counseled over

John Dehlin [00:01:54] the past few years is that there

John Dehlin [00:01:56] are some people who feel trapped and they don't have a vocabulary and they don't know of options available to them

John Dehlin [00:02:05] when they hit their crisis of faith. And so this is just about providing people with options to consider, not for telling everyone that they should stay.

John Dehlin [00:02:15] It's also very important that while we are exploring together alternative approaches to membership, this isn't about advocating slothfulness or disobedience or whatever.

John Dehlin [00:02:29] Again, I just feel like I have to make certain of that.

John Dehlin [00:02:31] I'm not advocating any lifestyle is the

John Dehlin [00:02:34] one that everyone should partake in. I'm just saying that if your choice is leaving altogether and abandoning or finding some middle ground, let's explore that middle ground and the possibilities there. But it's not about trying to win people over to lower degrees of obedience.

John Dehlin [00:02:57] And this is probably.

John Dehlin [00:02:59] I'm trying to be funny here, but,

John Dehlin [00:03:01] you know, this is probably the most important thing of all, I'm only 38 years old.

John Dehlin [00:03:05] I started my crisis, oh, let's say seven years ago. I have a 12 year old and four, three other young kids.

John Dehlin [00:03:15] I'm learning as I go.

John Dehlin [00:03:16] Obviously I don't have to tell you that I don't have all the answers, but I just, I do have the

John Dehlin [00:03:24] benefit of having counseled with about three

John Dehlin [00:03:25] to 400 people over the past two or three years who are in this situation. So I've been able to sort of

John Dehlin [00:03:30] absorb from them a lot. So consider this just a work in progress of just sharing me with you

John Dehlin [00:03:36] and then at the end you with me. How we might, you know, approach things. But don't look at this is anything other than an exploration.

The Speaker's Personal Faith Journey

John Dehlin [00:03:45] I guess I'll start with my story. My mom tells me I'm a fifth generation Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:03:51] I'm a Parkinson and a Benson through my mom. So I go back to Ezra T. Benson and Samuel Rose Parkinson. I was raised in Katy, Texas, which is a suburb outside of Houston. My claim to fame is I went to high school with Renee Zellweger and we actually went out a little bit

John Dehlin [00:04:17] when she called. What's that? There's still mortally clean.

John Dehlin [00:04:20] I know it was morally clean.

John Dehlin [00:04:22] So was she. She was a good girl. She did call me when I was

John Dehlin [00:04:26] a senior at BYU and tell me she was going to be an actress. And I laughed. Not in a mean way, but you

John Dehlin [00:04:35] know, it was sweet old Renee.

John Dehlin [00:04:37] Right. I just, I couldn't fathom Renee is this Hollywood actress, but she sure showed me.

Guest [00:04:43] But

John Dehlin [00:04:46] I brought her to a state

John Dehlin [00:04:47] dance once, by the way. It was a New Year's Eve dance and it was a dress up thing. So I was wearing suit and tie and she was wearing this beautiful velvet dress. And she was a petite girl, very modest, but I didn't think about it. And it was sleeveless. It kind of went like that, right. It wasn't immodest. But they ended up telling her she had to go home. So she cried the way home.

John Dehlin [00:05:13] And I was like, no, wait, she's not a member.

John Dehlin [00:05:15] You know, and they're nope, sorry, the girls are going to be embarrassed. So that was Renee's exposure to the church.

John Dehlin [00:05:25] And I don't tell you that to

John Dehlin [00:05:27] skewer the church because these were good people. But, you know, it's something to think about as we think about how to maintain our standards. We gotta make sure. But anyway, I definitely had a very conservative theological and doctrinal education within the church. My parents were divorced at a quite young age. After being married in the temple for 27 years, I was the youngest of four and I clung to the church as my lifeline. So that was very hard. But the church was everything to me and I would get myself up for seminary and that was at 5 o' clock because seminary started at 6:15 and I would go to church when my parents weren't even there. The church was regional seminary Scripture Chase Champion SEMINARY PRESIDENT the church was everything. I even DJed the stake dances, sometimes the regional dances.

John Dehlin [00:06:25] But most importantly I had a seminary teacher named Lawrence Layton who was extremely

John Dehlin [00:06:31] conservative and devout, a very sweet man,

John Dehlin [00:06:33] not a harsh or mean man, but

John Dehlin [00:06:36] very sort of of the Bruce Armaconkie Joseph E. Lee Smith cloth.

John Dehlin [00:06:41] And to just give you a couple

John Dehlin [00:06:42] examples of how he would teach seminary, he once decided that he wanted to illustrate the crucifixion of Christ in the New Testament year. So he actually brought into class a life size cross and he asked me to play Jesus. And so we rehearsed this beforehand, but

John Dehlin [00:07:06] he put the nail between my fingers

John Dehlin [00:07:09] and he asked me to writhe in pain as he would nail the nails into the cross.

John Dehlin [00:07:17] So that was. But.

John Dehlin [00:07:19] And another example which is actually quite sort of a little more jarring,

John Dehlin [00:07:31] Once he wanted to illustrate, he without sin

John Dehlin [00:07:35] cast the first stone. And so he cleared out, he cleared

John Dehlin [00:07:39] out all the chairs from the area

John Dehlin [00:07:42] where he normally taught and he laid

John Dehlin [00:07:44] down four big rocks.

John Dehlin [00:07:47] And he said, I'm not a perfect man. I try my hardest. But I know that I've offended at least some of you here during the three years I've been seminary teacher. And so I just want to beg for your forgiveness and offer you the chance to extol justice upon me for my sins.

John Dehlin [00:08:05] And he knelt down in front of

John Dehlin [00:08:06] us and began weeping uncontrollably and ended up like in a fetal position.

John Dehlin [00:08:12] And this was not some man who was a kook.

John Dehlin [00:08:14] This was a very spiritual, righteous, good man who just believed passionately in his faith and felt like he wanted.

John Dehlin [00:08:26] I don't know what he was thinking,

John Dehlin [00:08:27] but it definitely stuck with me and it was a good object lesson in terms of having me remember and feel.

John Dehlin [00:08:36] I was also taught that blacks were

John Dehlin [00:08:37] less dying in the pre existence and that's, you know, I was taught The Bruce R. McConkie Mormon Doctrine sort of theology as fact and I wasn't exposed

John Dehlin [00:08:46] to Mormon studies at all back in

John Dehlin [00:08:47] the 80s and I didn't have anyone to talk to about this, so I just absorbed it all as valid and perfectly true. And so my worldview was The Bruce R. McConkie, Joseph Ealing Smith worldview up to my mission. And there was no deviating from that.

John Dehlin [00:09:03] Served a mission in Guatemala, was married in the Washington D.C. temple, was morally clean, never tried alcohol, tobacco, any of that stuff.

John Dehlin [00:09:13] Even though I had lots of chances,

John Dehlin [00:09:16] I definitely aspired to high level church

John Dehlin [00:09:17] positions and I lived my life until

John Dehlin [00:09:24] I was living here in Seattle and

John Dehlin [00:09:27] was called as an early morning seminary

John Dehlin [00:09:28] teacher back around 2000.

John Dehlin [00:09:30] And

John Dehlin [00:09:32] the Book of Mormon was the

John Dehlin [00:09:33] first year, that was the year 911 happened, so that was 2001. Second year was doctrine of Covenants.

John Dehlin [00:09:39] I thought I knew, I knew about

John Dehlin [00:09:41] sunstone at byu, but I felt like it was too fringy and too controversial. So I canceled my subscription after just a year or so. And I didn't even think about sunstone really until after my crisis of faith.

John Dehlin [00:09:57] But I thought I knew the controversies of church history.

John Dehlin [00:09:59] I just, oh yeah, you know, there's polygamy and there's some Mason thing. And I kind of felt like I knew this edgy, dark, you know, part of church history.

John Dehlin [00:10:07] But then I was called as a seminary teacher and I started studying church

John Dehlin [00:10:11] history for the first time. And I started reading, started reading church manuals and the seminary manual and I was surprised at church history in the fullness of times, the institute manual. And that just really piqued my interest. So I started reading Leonard Arrington and that really piqued my interest. And so then I started reading Richard Bushman and then I started reading Michael Quinn and then I started reading Fawn Brody. And within six months I turned to my wife and said, this church isn't what it claims to be.

John Dehlin [00:10:50] And you know, there are multiple issues that in 32 years of church education, I personally had never heard of these. Now I know people who were taught

John Dehlin [00:10:57] this stuff when they were nine years

John Dehlin [00:10:58] old and they tell me what was wrong with you.

John Dehlin [00:11:01] I knew about Peepstones when I was

John Dehlin [00:11:02] 8 and I know that there are people that way. But for me, in 32 years of church education, I never knew about the

John Dehlin [00:11:09] Peepstone and the hat and the treasure digging and the bookmark translation. I never knew about the credibility issues with the three Nate witnesses. I never knew about the multiple first vision stories and sort of how the founding narrative changed a bit over time. Never knew about Book of Mormon historicity issues or the Papyrus Book of Abraham. Never knew Joseph Smith had 30 plus wives.

John Dehlin [00:11:29] I wasn't even sure if he was a polygamist.

John Dehlin [00:11:30] I thought he might be, but I didn't know anything about it, let alone the polyandry stuff. I didn't know about post manifesto polygamy, nor that it was taught as a requirement for exaltation by all the major prophets or the early major prophets.

John Dehlin [00:11:45] I didn't know the depth of the

John Dehlin [00:11:47] connections between the Masonic Temple ceremony and our temple ceremony. I didn't even know the basics of the Mountain Meadows massacre. In fact, I had heard about two

John Dehlin [00:11:56] massacres, Haun's Mill and Mountain Meadows, and I wanted to learn about both. And I found it odd that Hans Mill was in the seminary manual and

John Dehlin [00:12:04] discussed very strongly, but Mountain Meadows wasn't there. And I wondered what the difference was between the two massacres. And now I know that one was against us and one was by us.

John Dehlin [00:12:14] It made sense. But I wondered why they weren't both there. I didn't know anything until this year

John Dehlin [00:12:22] about the extent of female participation in priesthood ordinances, the washings and anointings they did before childbirth, the laying on of hands that they were encouraged to do by prophets to their husbands, to their children, et cetera. I had no idea that that had continued into the early 1900s. And you know, the racist statements, I didn't know about those. And that the church opposed the civil rights movement and hated Martin Luther King, or at least some of the leaders did.

Experiencing a Faith Crisis and Its Aftermath

John Dehlin [00:12:47] And when I learned all this stuff, it was like my world fell apart.

John Dehlin [00:12:50] I felt like I was devastated. I just felt like deceived, disappointed, angry.

John Dehlin [00:12:56] And I felt like it was all a fraud.

John Dehlin [00:12:58] And I just turned to my wife and I said, we gotta leave. And she cried. And then she said, okay. That was a really, you know, you would expect a fight, you would expect opposition, you would expect a five year period of dissonance within the marriage. But she just said, I'll put this in your hands. And being a fifth generation Mormon, I

John Dehlin [00:13:21] had to just sort of pause and

John Dehlin [00:13:23] say, okay, wow, I wasn't expecting that.

John Dehlin [00:13:25] And so thankfully I.

John Dehlin [00:13:29] I started reading articles by Eugene England. I started reading stuff from T. Edgar Lyon and Lowell Bennion. I started reading stuff from William Bradshaw and Laurel Thatcher Ulrich and others. In effect, Sunstone gave me a rebirth of a faith and a testimony and a framework. And so I really do owe Sunstone and dialogue sort of for being there for me in a very important time where I was willing to throw the whole thing away. And I would have done it without much, you know, hesitance if I hadn't found a framework to piece that together.

John Dehlin [00:14:12] But more importantly, once I started podcasting

John Dehlin [00:14:15] and blogging, I realized that I wasn't alone, not by a long shot. So I moved, left Microsoft, moved to Logan, went and met Dan, started doing a podcast and a blog, and within

John Dehlin [00:14:26] a very short amount of time, I

John Dehlin [00:14:27] started getting around three emails a week

John Dehlin [00:14:30] from people all over the world.

John Dehlin [00:14:33] And now that I've been doing this two or three years, I've received, you know, if you do the math, that plus the people who've come to see me and Logan, several hundred people I've counseled with. And this is an example of the type of email I get. Dear John, for now, I will let

John Dehlin [00:14:46] you know that I'm active but disillusioned somewhat. I used to be a hobby apologist,

John Dehlin [00:14:50] but could no longer defend what became undefendable. I'm currently serving as the bishop of the very interesting ward, and I'm four years and nine months into that call.

John Dehlin [00:15:01] It was about two and a half

John Dehlin [00:15:03] years ago when I concluded, much to my dismay, that things were really not as what I had always believed. I had a strong and abiding testimony

John Dehlin [00:15:11] of it has been very difficult to

John Dehlin [00:15:13] come to that point while serving as a bishop, but still I maintain my faith in God and Christ and much of what I've come to love from the LDS Church. This is a bit of an extreme example because he's serving as a bishop right now, but fathers, mothers, grandparents, missionaries, high school kids from every country.

John Dehlin [00:15:34] And I've been able to distill over

John Dehlin [00:15:35] the past several years what the main causes of people losing their faith are.

John Dehlin [00:15:38] I always had a church history centric point of view because that was what was hard for me.

John Dehlin [00:15:44] But it turns out that that's just one dynamic.

John Dehlin [00:15:48] There are many people who acted on Moroni's promise, and they just didn't get the witness they were told they were going to receive in the way that

John Dehlin [00:15:55] they were sort of told they were to receive it. And over time, that becomes a problem. There are many people who realize that

John Dehlin [00:16:04] they've been taught to conflate emotion with the Holy Ghost, and they have most of their emotional experiences in their formative

John Dehlin [00:16:13] years growing up in the church, and they associate that with the church and the testimony. But then, like me, I had an emotional spiritual experience watching the Muppet movie

John Dehlin [00:16:22] once, and you'd think that'd be a

John Dehlin [00:16:24] silly thing, but I was in high

John Dehlin [00:16:26] school and I said, why am I feeling as edified by the Muppet movie

John Dehlin [00:16:31] as I was in General Conference? And I said, what does that mean?

John Dehlin [00:16:35] You know, what does that mean? It means it's true.

Guest [00:16:39] Yeah,

John Dehlin [00:16:44] It is true.

John Dehlin [00:16:47] Many People travel. You know, they say that travel is

John Dehlin [00:16:50] one of the cures of prejudice. I think Mark Twain said that. But, you know, you meet.

John Dehlin [00:16:55] You don't have to spend much time

John Dehlin [00:16:56] traveling to meet some brilliantly inspirational people who are, are much superior not only to yourself, but to even some of the best LDS people, you know.

John Dehlin [00:17:05] And when that happens, it's one thing to sort of say, well, you know,

John Dehlin [00:17:09] they're an exception to those of us who are chosen.

John Dehlin [00:17:11] But when you meet enough of them,

John Dehlin [00:17:12] you start saying, man, do I really

John Dehlin [00:17:15] want to call them Gentiles and myself, you know, chosen? And what does it mean if they can reach this level of enlightenment without

John Dehlin [00:17:21] the gospel or the true gospel? And you start wondering whether maybe you don't have a monopoly on truth and enlightenment.

John Dehlin [00:17:29] Church history is one.

John Dehlin [00:17:30] Doing the numbers is a very common one. They simply do the math. And they realize that active members of the LDS Church is less than 1/2 of 1% of the world's population. And you want to believe in a fair and loving God that's going to give, you know, the purpose of this life is to come here and to get these ordinances and have this experience. And yet less than 1/2 of 1% of the world's population ever really get that chance in any reasonable way. You start wondering, what does that say about God and this plan and how much sense it makes? So there are some people who struggle there.

John Dehlin [00:18:01] There are many who feel marginalized, whether they're gay or they're single or they're

John Dehlin [00:18:04] divorced or whatever the case may be. Some have been abused within the context of the church.

John Dehlin [00:18:12] And one of the most common causes

John Dehlin [00:18:14] I'm finding, is just people aren't being edified in church. They are bored. They don't feel challenged. They feel like it's Pablum 24 by 7. And that's a hard thing for the church because the church is trying to

John Dehlin [00:18:28] please a lot of people.

John Dehlin [00:18:28] And it's hard to have one program

John Dehlin [00:18:30] that pleases all types of people at

John Dehlin [00:18:32] all ages and all situations. So I have empathy. I don't judge the church in any way for that.

John Dehlin [00:18:38] And then the last thing I have to say is that one of the hardest things about the dilemma of people like this, you would think that these people, as they're judged by their family

John Dehlin [00:18:49] and friends and community, are the weakest and the least righteous and the least

John Dehlin [00:18:53] valiant of all the members because they've become disaffected. But that hasn't been my experience. My experience is that a lot of

John Dehlin [00:19:02] these people

John Dehlin [00:19:04] hit this Crisis, not because

John Dehlin [00:19:05] they care too little, but because they care too much. It's just been my experience. I don't want to glorify them or us.

John Dehlin [00:19:12] But it certainly hasn't been because they

John Dehlin [00:19:15] had some sin they wanted to justify

John Dehlin [00:19:18] or were weak or feeble.

John Dehlin [00:19:19] It was more because of some of these other reasons.

John Dehlin [00:19:23] And so that's very painful to feel

John Dehlin [00:19:25] like you're doing something that's true to yourself and honest, and everyone else looks at you as dishonest and weak and feeble.

How the Church Responds to Faith Crises

John Dehlin [00:19:34] So when someone goes through this crisis,

John Dehlin [00:19:36] there are a few options for them.

John Dehlin [00:19:38] One is just to be the innocent. Let's talk about this in Sunday school. Look who I read the other day. You know, come on. Did anybody read this? You know, does anybody have any, you

John Dehlin [00:19:51] know, and you hear the crickets chirping

John Dehlin [00:19:53] and, you know, and sometimes that leads to frustration where you start being the person who wants to shock and traumatize

John Dehlin [00:20:01] everybody, and that just is all unhappiness and a road towards misery.

John Dehlin [00:20:07] But that's one, you know, And I,

John Dehlin [00:20:09] even some of you have. My bishop, I had this crisis here in Issaquah, and I tried to talk to my bishop about it, and I did the same thing when I went to Logan. A lot of times your bishops just kind of go, you know, you start talking about peep stones and polyandry, and the bishops are like, yeah, I'm sorry, I can't really help you. And they're not equipped. And my bishop in Logan actually said to me, I don't consider myself invulnerable. I don't consider myself impervious to temptations. I value my testimony. But the things that you might share with me might really damage that. And so if it's okay with you, I'd rather we not talk about these things.

John Dehlin [00:20:54] And he did it in a loving way. He was not mean. He was just saying, I'm not equipped to talk to you.

John Dehlin [00:21:01] And I can tell you that most

John Dehlin [00:21:02] bishops are likely in this scenario. They haven't been trained, and there isn't training. And it's not their fault.

John Dehlin [00:21:08] It's just where they are.

John Dehlin [00:21:11] So trying to talk to the ward

John Dehlin [00:21:13] community usually isn't very successful unless you're in a very unique ward. And there are some of those.

John Dehlin [00:21:19] A second thing you do is you

John Dehlin [00:21:20] try and talk to loved ones. And unless your parents or siblings or

John Dehlin [00:21:25] both people that you have been through

John Dehlin [00:21:26] things like this, you're in the much same boat.

John Dehlin [00:21:28] But not only that, as it is

John Dehlin [00:21:31] with bishops, you risk jeopardizing relationships you risk your standing in the ward, you risk your marriage. You risk your relationship with your children or with your parents or your standing in the community. If you live in the Utah area, you sometimes can risk your job. And so some people feel like they can't talk to anybody, and sometimes they try and they can't.

John Dehlin [00:21:55] And so the third thing that often

John Dehlin [00:21:56] people do, and sometimes they skip 1 and 2 and just go straight to this option, and that's just feeling completely isolated and depressed. And I can't tell you how many emails I get from people who listen to my podcast and they say, I thought I was the only one in the church who felt these things because they have no one that they can talk to. And that's, I think, the saddest and most desperate place of all.

John Dehlin [00:22:19] So I'll illustrate it with one more story. Mr. DeLint.

John Dehlin [00:22:25] One more email I got.

John Dehlin [00:22:26] Mr. DeLin. I came across your website by accident,

John Dehlin [00:22:28] but I found something that I had been searching for for a long time. I've been very naive in my faith

John Dehlin [00:22:33] with what I've been taught.

John Dehlin [00:22:34] In the last year, I started to

John Dehlin [00:22:35] realize that my testimony, the testimony that I had held so very closely to my soul, was being attacked by what looked and acted like truth.

John Dehlin [00:22:43] And that contradicted what I was taught. I began to feel betrayed. My immediate reaction was one of going to my close friends and family.

John Dehlin [00:22:49] All that did was make my relationship

John Dehlin [00:22:51] with them strain to a new high.

John Dehlin [00:22:53] I realized I was now on an island all by myself, no one to

John Dehlin [00:22:57] talk to or pull from.

John Dehlin [00:22:58] And then something happened.

John Dehlin [00:23:00] Just recently, the stake president called me to the Stake High Council. Very reluctantly, I accepted the call. So here I am, as a member of a Stake High Council with serious issues, I've entered a very dark place. I refer to it as dark because what I believe was light now seems dark.

John Dehlin [00:23:19] And so, you know, these emails start piling up. And probably one of the most fundamental teachings that causes this crisis is this

John Dehlin [00:23:29] notion that's often shared across the General Conference pulpit, which is that the church is either exactly what it claims to be or the biggest fraud ever perpetrated upon mankind.

John Dehlin [00:23:40] And if you're pushed into that sort of binary,

John Dehlin [00:23:44] polarized sort of paradigm, you're

John Dehlin [00:23:47] sort of encouraged to either accept it lock, stock and barrel, wholesale, or to

John Dehlin [00:23:52] get the heck out the other scripture. And I'm paraphrasing here, I would that

John Dehlin [00:23:56] ye be either hot or cold, but

John Dehlin [00:23:59] if you are lukewarm, then I will spew thee out of my mouth. And who wants to be spewed Right.

John Dehlin [00:24:06] So if you can't be hot and you can't be be lukewarm, you know, what's your option? And your option is an activity, or better yet, or worse yet, resignation.

John Dehlin [00:24:18] And if you go to the Internet, if you go to exmormon.org, you'll find that this option is being embraced more and more commonly. There are even websites dedicated to how

John Dehlin [00:24:28] to expedite most efficiently your resignation process. They give you a form letter. They offer legal services to challenge the

John Dehlin [00:24:36] church ecclesiastical leaders, if they don't expedite and if they harass you in any way.

John Dehlin [00:24:41] So this is sort of the option that many people are turning to now because they don't feel like they have another option. It's sort of like crossing the Rubicon, you know, burning the bridges and then writing the exit letter. And you don't just send your exit

John Dehlin [00:24:54] letter to the church, by the way.

John Dehlin [00:24:56] Most of these people send it to

John Dehlin [00:24:57] their parents and their siblings and their bishop and their ward members, and it's quite damaging. I've seen this in my own ward in Logan.

John Dehlin [00:25:09] And, you know, it's possible that it's an act of honor and integrity to resign. And some of you have made that choice. And I don't disparage that as lacking honor. In fact, I think it can be a very noble choice. But what I will also say is that when you get into this mode, sometimes you can have an inflated sense of importance and of relevance in what you're going through.

Guest [00:25:38] And

John Dehlin [00:25:41] there can even develop in your mind this notion of, I'm going to let everybody know these problems. I'm going to resign. It's going to send a shockwave through my family and the community, and people will be disturbed, and the warden will be disturbed, and they'll all come ask me what happened, and we'll all rally together. And it will be this strong thing where my family comes with me and members of the community come with me, and we'll be seeking justice. And maybe we'll all march onto the temple square headquarters and we'll nail our 95 theses onto the wall of the Tabernacle. And we'll go to the Prophet and we'll say, you need to change and you need to be honest. And you get this inflated sense of wanting to bring a lot of people with you. And I mention that because that's not

John Dehlin [00:26:25] always how it happens.

John Dehlin [00:26:30] You want to think that people are going to rally to your side and that you're going to change the world,

Guest 2 [00:26:35] but

John Dehlin [00:26:38] that's not Always how it ends up. And so

Navigating Anger and Emotional Reactions

John Dehlin [00:26:42] I have a little film clip that I want to show you which sort of illustrates a bit. Has anybody seen this movie? Anybody know what movie this is? Okay, it's Elizabeth ii, the HBO showing of Elizabeth ii. And this man was. This man who you're about to see was a close confidant of the queen. He sat on her central board ruling the queen of England. This is Elizabeth I.

John Dehlin [00:27:05] Sorry, not Elizabeth ii.

John Dehlin [00:27:08] But then he decided he didn't like another guy on the council, that the

John Dehlin [00:27:11] queen was listening to him too much.

John Dehlin [00:27:13] And so he goes out and gets some friends together, starts this sort of anti queen society that's trying not to

John Dehlin [00:27:19] overthrow the queen, but this man that's

John Dehlin [00:27:21] in her council and they decide that they have enough townspeople on their side that they're going to storm the walls

John Dehlin [00:27:27] of the castle and demand that the queen listen to him and get rid of this guy. And this is sort of how it all shapes up.

▶ Video Clip 1

Video Clip 1 [00:27:40] And the first day for my guy surviving. He's a traitor to this country. Who will join us to get rid of him? I was the sheriff of the city. I know that.

Video Clip 1 [00:27:52] You don't see him

Video Clip 1 [00:27:55] soon. I can get all these people not with us.

Video Clip 1 [00:28:16] Your majesty, there's a noise below.

Video Clip 1 [00:28:19] Let some prey in feet street.

Video Clip 1 [00:28:26] Danger.

Video Clip 1 [00:28:26] You have no confidence in your fear?

Video Clip 1 [00:28:52] Justice.

Video Clip 1 [00:28:53] We do not seek to fight.

Video Clip 1 [00:28:55] All we seek is the removal of certain counselors of yours who have worked against those of us who really love you. Justice. You do not come to seek justice. You come to decide which of us shall rule this kingdom. You or I. And I tell you, Essex, it is I who rule.

John Dehlin [00:29:37] So that's more often how that scenario ends up. And so you need to be aware of the risks of this approach. It's devastating. People are losing their spouses, their children,

John Dehlin [00:29:57] their affiliation with their parents, their community.

John Dehlin [00:30:02] It's not a pleasant deal. And you know, I don't mean to

John Dehlin [00:30:06] make light of it, but you know, it's not.

John Dehlin [00:30:10] It's not the way it doesn't turn

John Dehlin [00:30:11] out the way you think.

John Dehlin [00:30:12] So there are many downsides to this type of public resignation. First of all, it's a very. You don't feel it at the time. You feel like your pain is what everybody should be feeling. That's how I felt. I felt like everybody should be feeling the pain that I'm feeling. Everyone in my family, everyone in my ward, everyone in my community. Your pain needs to be my pain now. But that turns out to be a very selfish and narcissistic approach. Just because you care about those things doesn't mean that they do or are in a place to even be able

John Dehlin [00:30:49] to start understanding those things.

John Dehlin [00:30:53] And if they had come to you five years ago when you were in your phase of zealotry, how receptive would you have been to someone sharing these same messages? And so you have to realize that, you know, blasting this out all over the world and the Internet, like I

John Dehlin [00:31:08] wanted to do, wasn't always the right approach.

John Dehlin [00:31:12] There's also a downward spiral of cynicism, bitterness, and anger that comes from sort of being angry with your tradition and then storming out and leaving it. You end up gravitating towards those who have done the same. You start circling yourself with people like

Guest 2 [00:31:29] that,

John Dehlin [00:31:31] and it's just not very positive. There was once someone asked the Dalai

John Dehlin [00:31:36] Lama, I'm not happy with my church. I want to be a Buddhist.

John Dehlin [00:31:38] And he said something interesting. He said, don't come to Buddhism with

John Dehlin [00:31:43] baggage from your faith.

John Dehlin [00:31:45] Stay in your faith, make it work, or at least reconcile it till you are at a place of peace. Because if you come to Buddhism with your anger, I guarantee you, within three

John Dehlin [00:31:55] to five years, you're going to be disillusioned and angry at Buddhism, and then you're just going to move on to the next thing. And that's often what I've found.

John Dehlin [00:32:04] There's a high risk of alienation from everyone. It can be very disruptive to children and marriages. Important decisions, life decisions should rarely be made from a place of anger and pure emotion. That's just a good rule. Would you sell your car or a house without having a replacement? I doubt you would question, in many

John Dehlin [00:32:24] instances, the value of the church in

John Dehlin [00:32:25] your life up until that point.

John Dehlin [00:32:28] Maybe some of you would. But for me, the church was so important, I wasn't just going to throw it all away, even though I was tempted.

John Dehlin [00:32:36] And if you do do this sort

John Dehlin [00:32:38] of crossing the Rubicon, burning the boats,

John Dehlin [00:32:41] you have very little room to change your mind later because you force yourself into this public display of disaffection that then you sort of are going to feel ashamed, like your ego's damaged.

John Dehlin [00:32:52] If you then go back on what you did so publicly.

John Dehlin [00:32:55] And so all sorts of reasons, it's

John Dehlin [00:32:56] not a good idea.

John Dehlin [00:32:58] I'll show you another story. There's this couple that emailed me a couple years ago and said, I found your podcast. I love it, and it's helping us

John Dehlin [00:33:08] work through some issues.

John Dehlin [00:33:09] And then about a year after that, they emailed me and said, I don't want anything to do with the church anymore.

John Dehlin [00:33:13] We've joined another church and we're done.

John Dehlin [00:33:16] Sorry, it's over.

John Dehlin [00:33:18] We're not coming back. We're happy and they really thought they were done.

John Dehlin [00:33:22] Then I get this email just this week. We continue to attend a local neighborhood church, which is fine, except for the

John Dehlin [00:33:28] times that I miss being a Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:33:30] Do you know what I mean? I sometimes wonder if I can ever

John Dehlin [00:33:33] shake it or if I'm supposed to.

John Dehlin [00:33:35] It's in my blood to a certain extent. I think it's an emotional reaction, but

John Dehlin [00:33:39] it is real and I have to work through it.

John Dehlin [00:33:41] I would love to know how you are hanging in with the church. Is it working? I try to envision it and find

John Dehlin [00:33:46] that there is so much I wouldn't

John Dehlin [00:33:47] be able to do and say than my ward would want me to do and say.

John Dehlin [00:33:50] I don't know how I would make it work when I can't toe the party line. But I love many things about Mormonism. This is my dilemma.

John Dehlin [00:33:56] So if you think you're leaving it, you may not be.

John Dehlin [00:34:01] It may just be a matter of years before you're back pining for it and wishing you could come back.

John Dehlin [00:34:09] So another point I have to say is that anger is much more damaging,

John Dehlin [00:34:13] in my opinion, as sort of a

John Dehlin [00:34:14] lifestyle than any abusive situation you think that's being inflicted upon you at church. If it's just the typical close minded

John Dehlin [00:34:24] members or, you know, boring lessons or dogmatic, deceiving sort of discourse,

John Dehlin [00:34:33] as hard as those may seem to you, choosing a life filled with anger and rage

John Dehlin [00:34:39] is much more cancerous as an alternative. And I've seen it destroy people.

John Dehlin [00:34:45] And so regardless of whether you choose

John Dehlin [00:34:47] to come back, I strongly encourage people to avoid negative, critical, intolerant people, not

John Dehlin [00:34:52] to seek out people who have experienced

John Dehlin [00:34:55] the disaffection that you have and have remained in an angry and a furious place because they're going to keep you and drive you into a place that I promise you will be worse in almost all instances than what you're experiencing as a member.

John Dehlin [00:35:11] This is a hard concept that I

John Dehlin [00:35:13] want to convey because I don't want

John Dehlin [00:35:15] to glorify this stage.

John Dehlin [00:35:17] But if any of you have studied

John Dehlin [00:35:18] Fowler's stages of faith, you'll know that

John Dehlin [00:35:20] every phase is a good phase, every

John Dehlin [00:35:22] stage is a healthy phase. And it turns out that this stage that many of you might be going through or have gone through is a healthy stage. And in many ways, if you can face the challenge and try to endure it, you can experience deeper levels of

John Dehlin [00:35:39] enlightenment, empathy and understanding than you would

John Dehlin [00:35:41] have ever experienced as, let's say, a

John Dehlin [00:35:43] level three dogmatic conservative Mormon.

Reframing Belief Through Music and Story

John Dehlin [00:35:47] And so one of the things I like to do in these little presentations

John Dehlin [00:35:51] is share a little bit of music because I believe music sometimes can help, you know, help get some points across. And so, if you'll forgive me, I will share with you a song by a man named David Wilcox called I Had to Let It Go.

John Dehlin [00:36:10] And think about if any of you

John Dehlin [00:36:12] have experienced this path. This song sort of captivates it a

John Dehlin [00:36:17] bit, but also the joy that can

John Dehlin [00:36:20] come on the other side of the trauma.

Guest 2 [00:36:46] Gone. I had been home. So long I had to live to go. I wagered my hero soul. All of that wa. And me. I should be I had to let it go

Guest 3 [00:37:46] how

Guest 2 [00:37:48] above the broken oh. Welcoming.

Guest 3 [00:38:16] Now

Guest 2 [00:38:18] that I remember

Guest [00:38:23] how

Guest 2 [00:38:26] this love can be

Guest 3 [00:38:31] O

Guest 2 [00:38:33] my surrender. Into the deep blue sky. When it's my time to fly Now. I can release. This way Now I can live. Now I can live I. See I get to let it go.

John Dehlin [00:39:51] A couple weeks ago, I interviewed a BYU student for my podcast named John Kovalenko. And he's a BYU student. But he discovered in high school, at Provo High School, that he had a same sex attraction. And BYU was the last place that he ever thought he was going to end up. In fact, he went to school in southern Utah for his first couple years of college and he explored his sexuality and tried to come to understand it. And as he was ready to throw the church away completely, he decided he was going to read the Book of Mormon one last time. His parents were out of the church. I don't think his mom had ever been a member and his dad had been excommunicated, I think twice.

John Dehlin [00:40:39] So he read the Book of Mormon

John Dehlin [00:40:41] and much to his surprise, he received an undeniable witness as to his truthfulness for him. And so he reconciled and came to byu. And he's at BYU today as an openly struggling with a same sex attraction, but openly talking about it. And his video interview is up on YouTube if you want to go listen to it.

John Dehlin [00:41:05] But he told me something very interesting in that interview when I asked him whether the church in any way, John

John Dehlin [00:41:11] Kovalenko,

John Dehlin [00:41:14] when I asked him whether the church was missing out by having people

John Dehlin [00:41:18] of same sex attraction in full fellowship, he said, absolutely, because in my experience,

John Dehlin [00:41:24] because of, not only because of who

John Dehlin [00:41:27] people with same sex attractions are and their dispositions, but because of what they've

John Dehlin [00:41:31] been through, they're in a unique position

John Dehlin [00:41:35] to display love and compassion and understanding that many of us may not have a chance to get to because of the adversity that they experience. And what I am asking you to

John Dehlin [00:41:47] consider is that if you feel desperate and alone and hopeless in this state, that there's hope and sunshine and happiness

John Dehlin [00:41:56] on the other side.

John Dehlin [00:41:58] If you can do the work to

John Dehlin [00:42:00] move on from the disappointment and the

John Dehlin [00:42:02] disillusionment and the anger and get to that place of understanding and empathy and love, if you can do that, then you can become a savior on Mount Zion to people who are in pain and struggling in a way that very few other people would ever have the chance to be. And so I want to put this

John Dehlin [00:42:22] position and stayed as an opportunity for you, not as a curse or. Or some type of condition.

John Dehlin [00:42:28] And so I say embrace this stage. Don't be ashamed of it. Don't feel desperate about it. Look at it as a challenge.

John Dehlin [00:42:35] As Bonaricci likes to talk about, the

John Dehlin [00:42:38] opposite of a small truth is a lie, but the opposite of a large

John Dehlin [00:42:42] truth is another large truth.

John Dehlin [00:42:44] And transcendence comes through reconciling paradox. And if you can look at the church and its imperfection and also its beauty and find a way to reconcile

John Dehlin [00:42:55] those two into something that's worth embracing,

John Dehlin [00:42:58] you can achieve a level of enlightenment

John Dehlin [00:43:00] and transcendence that can be a blessing to yourself and to the people around you. So that leads me to the question of why stay? Because that case needs to be made.

Practical Reasons for Staying in the Church

John Dehlin [00:43:09] There are lots of practical reasons to

John Dehlin [00:43:10] stay in the church.

John Dehlin [00:43:14] It's a great place to reinforce spirituality

John Dehlin [00:43:16] in a world where spirituality is easily forgotten.

John Dehlin [00:43:20] In many cases, it is your identity

John Dehlin [00:43:22] and your culture or your tribe.

John Dehlin [00:43:25] And it's not easy for a Jew to unjew themselves.

John Dehlin [00:43:30] And it's not easy for a Mormon to un Mormon themselves, no matter how much they want to, no matter how much they try. In my experience, they almost always keep coming back and at an absolute minimum, always miss their affiliation with the church, at least on some level. It's a wonderful place to establish community,

John Dehlin [00:43:47] to raise your family and children, if

John Dehlin [00:43:50] you can have the right approach to it. It's a great place to encourage clean living, which is good for anybody.

John Dehlin [00:43:55] There's undeniable good in the church if

John Dehlin [00:43:57] you're open and willing to see that. No matter how discouraged you might be

John Dehlin [00:44:00] about what gets said over the pulpit.

John Dehlin [00:44:02] General Conference sometimes, if you're objective and look at what's going on in wards and stakes and missions and humanitarian efforts, there's undeniable, amazing amounts of good going there.

John Dehlin [00:44:17] For many of us, it ends up becoming the best there is. I know lots of people who become

John Dehlin [00:44:21] Episcopalian or Unitarian, and I don't disparage that, and some of you are Unitarian.

John Dehlin [00:44:28] But I have met many people who end up becoming as disaffected and disenchanted

John Dehlin [00:44:32] with whatever faith they run to, as they were. And then they end up hopping and hopping and hopping until they unravel and they wish they could come back. And so I'm not saying you can't

John Dehlin [00:44:43] find joy in other faiths, but I am saying that in many cases, it

John Dehlin [00:44:46] ends up being the best there is for people like us, especially if you're raised in the tradition.

John Dehlin [00:44:52] There's so much of the doctrine that's beautiful. There's this challenge of making it better. If all the people who struggle with

John Dehlin [00:44:59] the imperfections abandon it, then who's going to stick around and help make it better? And sometimes improvement happens one person at a time.

John Dehlin [00:45:09] Many people since then have taught this

John Dehlin [00:45:11] notion that the church is a place to serve and be served. I believe that comes from Eugene, England. And in my opinion, the hymns rock for me. Okay, some people disagree with that.

John Dehlin [00:45:23] I love it. And so, you know, do you throw the baby out with the bathwater? It's a fair analogy. Yes, you're frustrated. Yes, you're in pain. Yes, you see deception, yes, you see boredom, or yes, you see dysfunction. But do you really throw away the

John Dehlin [00:45:41] baby with the bathwater?

John Dehlin [00:45:42] I'm not saying that you can't find enlightenment outside of the church, or the

John Dehlin [00:45:45] Mormons have a monopoly on anything. In fact, I've tried to tell you the opposite.

John Dehlin [00:45:49] And I'm not saying that everyone should

John Dehlin [00:45:51] stay and that all who leave will find misery.

John Dehlin [00:45:53] But what I am saying is that replacing all these things is perhaps possible. In other words, all these great things that I tried to show here, trying to reconstruct these things in your own life is possible, but I would submit that it's very difficult. And the analogy that I like to use is the homeschooling analogy. Have you ever met some parents? How many of you are disaffected or angry at the school, the public education system today?

John Dehlin [00:46:21] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:46:22] How many of you still send your kids there anyway?

Guest [00:46:25] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:46:26] How many of you have tried homeschooling?

Guest [00:46:28] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:46:28] How many of you are still homeschooling?

John Dehlin [00:46:32] Well, they grow up. Okay. They grow up.

John Dehlin [00:46:34] Well, homeschooling can be an amazingly positive,

John Dehlin [00:46:37] productive thing, and it can really work for people.

John Dehlin [00:46:40] But I've met a lot of people

John Dehlin [00:46:41] who didn't realize what they were taking on, and it ends up being Sometimes very complex and difficult and much more overwhelming than they ever thought. And it turns out that sometimes being educated in how to be a teacher is a helpful thing. And sometimes life gets so busy.

John Dehlin [00:46:58] So I would submit that trying to reconstruct all the benefits that you can

John Dehlin [00:47:02] get from award affiliation is a challenging thing. That isn't to be seen as something to be taken lightly.

John Dehlin [00:47:08] But what that often requires you to do is rethink the role of religion. I really like this quote by a

John Dehlin [00:47:14] man whose name I won't even try to pronounce.

John Dehlin [00:47:16] Dan, do you want to pronounce his last name? What?

John Dehlin [00:47:20] Vivekananda. Swami Vivekananda.

John Dehlin [00:47:22] Religion is a realization not talk, not

John Dehlin [00:47:26] doctrine, nor theories, however beautiful these may be. Religion is being and becoming, not hearing and acknowledging.

John Dehlin [00:47:34] It is not an intellectual ascent. In fact, it's almost in many ways

John Dehlin [00:47:38] the opposite of an intellectual ascent, but

John Dehlin [00:47:40] the transformation, transformation of one's whole life. If you come to church expecting to hear the pure, unadulterated voice of God through his servants, that may be an unrealistic expectation.

John Dehlin [00:47:53] Sometimes.

John Dehlin [00:47:54] Sometimes you may get that, but you're not always going to get that. But if you look at church, as in Eugene England's case, why the church is as true as the gospel, if you look at it as a laboratory, if you look at church as a laboratory to make you saintly in many ways, because of the adversity that you have to face and the people that you have to deal with, and associating with people that you otherwise would never choose to associate with, how else are you going to develop Christlike love, patience and tolerance? And so it's something worth thinking about if you are sincerely seeking transcendence in a higher level of being. Now, while you should remain open to literal truths taught in the gospel and in the church, I would encourage you not to minimize the importance of myth and metaphor. So let's say that you struggle with the historicity of the Book of Mormon

Myth, Meta-Theology, and Scripture

John Dehlin [00:48:49] or the Book of Abraham, or let's

John Dehlin [00:48:51] say that you struggle with everything coming out of the mouth of the general

John Dehlin [00:48:55] authorities as being doctrine all the time.

John Dehlin [00:48:57] Or God is an anthropomorphic being or an atonement that satisfies not only everyone

John Dehlin [00:49:03] in this world, but everyone who's ever

John Dehlin [00:49:04] lived, plus all the other worlds. If you struggle with the literalness of some of these teachings, that doesn't mean that the whole thing is garbage and should be thrown away. There's immense value in metaphor and myth. In fact, a smart man once said that myth is what never was. But always will be. If you read a John Steinbeck novel, it doesn't matter whether Tom Joad ever really lived, because there's truth and goodness and godlike truth and inspiration in those pages. And you can find the same thing in Scripture, in addition to the possibility

John Dehlin [00:49:41] of them actually being completely authentic and valid and historical.

John Dehlin [00:49:45] So what are some of the truths behind the myths? Even if you're 100% non believer, consider the practical value behind messages like you are a child of divine worth. Think about how the world would be if everybody respected this notion in terms

John Dehlin [00:49:59] of civil rights and respect and decency.

John Dehlin [00:50:01] We were all child of the divine father and mother prayer, even if there's no one listening on the other end. What's the value of the meditation and

John Dehlin [00:50:09] the reflection and the expression that comes through prayer?

John Dehlin [00:50:13] Faith is another word for optimism of doing something with the hope that something good will come about. Baptism represents a commitment. Repentance is change. I mean, that's really what repentance is.

John Dehlin [00:50:27] And that's something we could all do.

John Dehlin [00:50:29] Positive change, revelation, whether or not there's someone sending you this literal message. I believe that if you're present and listening and paying attention to people and to your environment and to nature, that somehow messages are being sent to you that are worth listening to. And whether you want to call that directly from an anthropomorphic God or not, I believe there is power in being present and receiving revelation.

John Dehlin [00:50:56] That's extrasensory.

John Dehlin [00:50:59] Service is love, priesthood. Power is tapping into the power of natural law and faith. There can be authority and hierarchy. How oppressive it may be. There's only one thing worse than we're learning in Iraq than a dictator. And what's that? Anarchy. Anarchy can actually be much worse than a horrible brutal dictator. You know, there are many people in

John Dehlin [00:51:20] Iraq right now who would much rather have Saddam Hussein than what they're dealing with.

John Dehlin [00:51:25] So there is a place for authority

John Dehlin [00:51:27] and hierarchy, even when we sometimes wish it would all go away.

John Dehlin [00:51:30] Traditional families, as charged as that term is, I would be interested in hearing someone argue that the traditional family should be destroyed or isn't an important component of our society as much umbrage as we may take in what the general

John Dehlin [00:51:44] leaves society president may say in general

John Dehlin [00:51:46] conference, there is still value in the traditional family that shouldn't be, you know,

John Dehlin [00:51:52] relegated to unimportance, although it shouldn't be elevated. All this is above other things exclusively, you know, or defined in a way so narrow that it makes us uncomfortable.

John Dehlin [00:52:03] Gender based roles may make you really

John Dehlin [00:52:05] uncomfortable, but I believe that Sometimes gender really does matter and it's not something

John Dehlin [00:52:11] that we always need to have.

John Dehlin [00:52:12] Exact equality and similarness or similitude within.

John Dehlin [00:52:18] Genealogy is simply an appreciation for one's ancestry and their history. Personal purity is clean living. Scripture study is about deep thought and meditation. A lay clergy is all about self governance. Tithing is about sacrifice. Home teaching is just about love. There are truths behind these myths. And the one thing that I have to convey maybe most strongly, when you throw all these things away, sometimes you think you're chopping down the imperfect and sometimes you think that you're discarding what's flawed. Because then when you chop down all those trees in the forest because you find blemishes on each one, that somehow new trees are going to spring forth that are perfect. But that's not always the way it is. And this is a clip from A Man for All Seasons. It's about Sir Thomas More. In this clip, he's talking about someone who would change or defy civil law, or even tear down civil law if he felt like it violated true pure righteousness. And Sir Thomas More, even though he's a man of faith, says that sometimes law has its place. Even if law is imperfect,

Guest [00:53:30] it's his

John Dehlin [00:53:31] future son in law that he's talking to. Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:53:35] So when he talks about law, replace

John Dehlin [00:53:36] that with church and religion and see if this resonates at all with you.

▶ Video Clip 2

Video Clip 2 [00:53:52] Cromwell is asking questions about you. He's continually asking questions about you and your opinions. That's one of his sources. Of course. That's one of my stones. All right, my friend. You look at me as I were in.

Video Clip 2 [00:54:19] Richard, you're shaking.

Video Clip 2 [00:54:23] Help me. Employ me. No. Employ me. No. I would be faithful. Richard, you couldn't answer for yourself even so far as tonight.

Video Clip 2 [00:55:10] Arrest him for what he's taken for. He's a star for that man's bat.

Video Clip 2 [00:55:14] No law against that. There is God's law. God can arrest him.

Video Clip 2 [00:55:18] Well, you talk. He's gone.

Video Clip 2 [00:55:19] No.

Video Clip 2 [00:55:19] He should.

Video Clip 2 [00:55:20] If he was a devil himself until he broke the law.

Video Clip 2 [00:55:22] Son, now you give the devil benefit of all.

Video Clip 2 [00:55:25] Yes.

Video Clip 2 [00:55:25] What would you do?

Video Clip 2 [00:55:26] Cut a great road through the law

Video Clip 2 [00:55:27] to get after the devil? Yes.

Video Clip 2 [00:55:29] I cut down every law in England to do that.

Video Clip 2 [00:55:31] Oh, and when the last law was down and the devil turned round on you, where will you hide, Roper? The laws all been flat. This country is planted thick with laws from coast to coast. Man's laws are gods. And if you cut them down and you're just a man to do it, do you really Think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then yes, I give the devil benefit of law for my own safety's sake. We should send that to the Bush administration.

John Dehlin [00:56:15] No one hates more than I do the ominous warnings about how your life

John Dehlin [00:56:19] is going to self destruct when you leave the church.

John Dehlin [00:56:22] So I don't want you to think

John Dehlin [00:56:23] that I'm making that case.

John Dehlin [00:56:25] But I am going to say that when you carelessly chop down all the

John Dehlin [00:56:28] trees in the forest, sometimes adversity that you would never expect will come at you. And those trees that would have given you shelter and comfort end up being not there for you in a time of great need. So I just ask you not to always minimize that.

John Dehlin [00:56:47] And so go slowly. Don't burn bridges. Be careful who you talk to. Don't lie, but be careful. Don't try to shock or enlighten people

John Dehlin [00:56:57] with your new understandings or concerns I've already talked about.

John Dehlin [00:57:00] Where are you going to go? Don't leave until you figure out a

John Dehlin [00:57:05] place where you likely really will be more happy. And many do regret leaving and come back.

John Dehlin [00:57:12] This is a point that I get in a lot of trouble with. But I think that part of living a healthy life is learning to accept imperfection. And you don't expect imperfection from God's

John Dehlin [00:57:22] one and only true church.

John Dehlin [00:57:23] You expect that to be the one

John Dehlin [00:57:25] place where you will achieve perfection.

John Dehlin [00:57:27] But I don't even think God has held that standard. In fact, if you read the Bible, the Bible Michael Medved says he believes

John Dehlin [00:57:34] the Bible is true simply because it's

John Dehlin [00:57:36] so candid and all the grotesque, horrible things that it tells about. And so you can't really argue that God has set us up with the expectation of perfection, even from his prophets. Prophets and apostles.

John Dehlin [00:57:50] Judas denying Christ, Peter betraying Christ, David

John Dehlin [00:57:54] committing adultery and murder, Noah getting drunk. The list is endless of prophets who are fools and Jonah running away. So learning to accept imperfection is simply

John Dehlin [00:58:06] healthy living at some aspect.

John Dehlin [00:58:09] Are you perfect? Is your spouse perfect? Is your family perfect? Is your employer perfect? Is your country? Do you resign from all these institutions when they fail to meet your pure ideas of what things should be? Do you renounce your citizenship as a US citizen because of the war and

John Dehlin [00:58:29] you're not feeling good about it?

John Dehlin [00:58:31] You could argue that they don't claim to be God's one true church, but at the same time you, you know, at least this country claims to have

John Dehlin [00:58:37] divine inspiration and God's support, especially in this administration.

John Dehlin [00:58:44] And most importantly, the impact that they have is unbelievably.

John Dehlin [00:58:48] Strong and powerful.

John Dehlin [00:58:49] So you know it's healthy to ask yourself when you're experiencing a problem, is this really an LDS or Mormon problem, or is this just a human problem

John Dehlin [00:58:58] that manifests itself not only in this world, but elsewhere?

John Dehlin [00:59:01] And I would suggest to you that

John Dehlin [00:59:04] life becomes more healthy when you learn to accept imperfection.

John Dehlin [00:59:07] Adjust your expectations for the church, church leadership, members, the ward, and even church history. Don't expect more from that than what you are able to offer and what you're experiencing in your own life that you have the most control over. It's important to unplug from caring about what others think of you religiously because being a Mormon, who's maybe not a conservative orthodox Mormon, requires you to say things or do things or not do things that would cause other people to raise their eyebrows. But instead of like owning that and allowing that to oppress you, I highly suggest you gaining a level of confidence and self respect and unplugging from the

John Dehlin [00:59:54] cares and the judgments of your peers within the church.

John Dehlin [00:59:56] It's a hard thing to do, but

John Dehlin [00:59:58] I believe it's a path towards healthier

John Dehlin [01:00:00] living, not just in the church, but

John Dehlin [01:00:01] in your life in general.

John Dehlin [01:00:04] And it's an essential coping mechanism with

John Dehlin [01:00:06] dealing with this condition and staying in the church.

John Dehlin [01:00:09] And I find so many people who are angry at the church, but if you dig into their own lives, they have deep dysfunction and dissatisfaction, whether it's

John Dehlin [01:00:18] with themselves, with their employer, with their

John Dehlin [01:00:20] marriage, with their family. And the church becomes sort of the scapegoat for all the pain and the anguish that they're experiencing. Independent. And of course, if you leave the church in abandoned and run away, that's not going to solve the problems that are independent of the church and it may even exacerbate them. And so I would submit that look inside yourself and make sure that you are in a healthy and the same

Finding Your Own Place Within the Church

John Dehlin [01:00:42] place before you blame all of that on the church. You may find that some of that is within you and will follow you wherever you go.

John Dehlin [01:00:54] You know, a buffet Mormon or cafeteria Mormon is kind of a pejorative. You know, this notion of picking and choosing the things that you want and don't want. And a lot of us are uncomfortable with that notion because you can't stay getting to this place where we have and do everything exactly the way you've

John Dehlin [01:01:13] been told to do it.

John Dehlin [01:01:15] And so what that means is becoming

John Dehlin [01:01:16] a buffet Mormon to some extent.

John Dehlin [01:01:18] What that means is deciding that you're going to do some things and not do others. You're going to believe some things and

John Dehlin [01:01:24] not believe other things.

John Dehlin [01:01:26] And I would ask you to consider the fact that you're not alone in that regard, that in reality all Mormons are buffet Mormons, because you can't possibly do everything that's been asked of you and you can't believe and have a testimony of every element of the gospel. Because I think even the brethren aren't sure of all of the elements of

John Dehlin [01:01:45] doctrine within the canon.

John Dehlin [01:01:48] And so everyone falls short. Instead of getting depressed about it, embrace it. I'm not encouraging this approach, but if

John Dehlin [01:01:55] push comes to shove, it's something to think about.

John Dehlin [01:01:59] There's a great presentation at Sunstone this

John Dehlin [01:02:01] August about how to deal with the temple recommend.

John Dehlin [01:02:04] Because many people want to maintain and go to the temple. And you could argue that people like us need the temple more than anyone, or at least as much as anyone else. But they self disqualify themselves from the temple recommend interview because they say, I can't commit to an anthropomorphic God, it's just a little bit too much. Or I can't commit to the restoration. Because Joseph Smith. There's just some things that really get to me, or I can't fully commit, you know, to other things. And so I would ask you to consider some things. The first is that there's always going to be a disconnect between whoever's interviewing you and you. You're never going to have a full agreement and understanding on what the terms mean and what the conditions are and what the doctrine and history entail. And so you have to understand the setup of what the brethren themselves have offered. They could ask 10,000 questions, ask for your W2s and drill down and allow bishops full autonomy to ask additional questions and to make sure that you align perfectly with what those bishops think and stake presidents think he should be feeling and thinking. But in reality, think about how they set up the questions. These questions are intentionally vague. Joseph Smith's name never comes up in the temple questions. It says, do you have a testimony of the restoration? Just the terms themselves. Do you have a testimony of what does that mean? Does that mean a firm and abiding conviction and knowledge? Or does that mean a faith and a hope, as faith is described in Alma, a simple hope that something is true. And so the questions are somewhat vague. They prohibit additional questions being added. They allow you to be the ultimate judge. Nobody's perfect. And I'm sure all of you know that one bishop may disqualify you when

John Dehlin [01:03:55] another bishop would have let you through, depending on how you answer the questions

John Dehlin [01:03:58] and so understand that the brethren have set that up that way. And all you need to do is make sure that you're comfortable with integrity answering these questions. And if you feel right before God answering these questions in however you define the terms, I think you shouldn't necessarily

John Dehlin [01:04:13] disqualify yourselves from temple service.

John Dehlin [01:04:19] If you don't believe in anthropomorphic God, do you believe in a force or some type of organizing force if you don't believe, if you worry about the historicity of Jesus, can you call him a savior just by the fact that you've lived his teachings and they've saved you from pain and anguish? If you can't sign up to everything about Joseph Smith, can you sign up to the fact that he brought truth and goodness? That was a step forward from what traditions he came from. If you don't know that Gordon V. Hinckley is the only man that God speaks to in such a literal way, can you say that he has the power within the church to lead it and is in some way inspired by God? There are other things as well that you have to decide how you're going to interpret them and what they mean. Again, I never encourage lying and deception, but I would ask you to make

John Dehlin [01:05:05] sure that you're not disqualifying yourselves unnecessarily.

John Dehlin [01:05:10] Raising children is a very tough one.

John Dehlin [01:05:14] We're raising four kids right now.

John Dehlin [01:05:16] A lot of people are concerned that what about teaching them dogma and doctrine that's going to be hard for them to accept. That's going to teach them biases and untruths that may poison them later. Here's how we approach it. We tell our children, mommy and Daddy, don't go to this church because we think this church is better than all the other churches. We love this church, and it's the church that we embrace and it's our heritage and faith. But don't look at this as an indictment on all the other churches and as us holding this church up as perfect. This is our faith tradition. You know, talk to your kids about what they're being taught. Find out in an engaged way, just like you would do at school or a movie that they watch. What were you taught? How do you feel about that? You don't have to believe everything you're taught by a church leader or in a church class. You can decide for yourself what feels

John Dehlin [01:06:03] right and what doesn't.

John Dehlin [01:06:05] And children get this if they give them a chance. You don't want to teach them disrespect for church leaders. But you need to teach them to do what they would do anywhere, which is to make sure that what they're receiving feels right within them. So if they're taught about a vengeful God that inflicts someone with a disease because they didn't do quite what God said, you can tell them, you know what? You don't have to believe that part. If that doesn't feel right to you

John Dehlin [01:06:28] in the way you look at God,

John Dehlin [01:06:30] or if you don't feel this one true church thing is right for you. Don't look at it that way. Look at it. This is your faith tradition. You don't have to believe the leaders are infallible because sometimes they make mistakes. You don't have to believe that our church is better than other churches. This is just the one that we choose. You don't have to believe in a bigoted God that is racist and other things. And you don't have to choose between science and religion. You can teach your children these things and equip them at an amazingly early age to be able to work through as a mature person to cope with some of the less than ideal things

John Dehlin [01:07:01] they get at church.

John Dehlin [01:07:03] But most importantly, don't spend your Sunday dinners deconstructing and criticizing everything that they experience at church. We've tried that. It leads to just a very negative experience. You may as well not go. So keep positive. When they come home and say, I was frustrated with this at church, show love and empathy, but then say, what did you like about church today? What did you love? And don't use church as a means

John Dehlin [01:07:26] of always venting and criticizing because there's just no point.

John Dehlin [01:07:30] Remember that it's all about the people and don't get fixated on the doctrine

John Dehlin [01:07:36] and the history and the theology if that's bothering you.

John Dehlin [01:07:40] Fixate on the relationships and getting to know members of your ward and having

John Dehlin [01:07:43] edifying relationships and even one on one relationships with people.

John Dehlin [01:07:49] A lot of times we judge church membership by the 5% who are most vocal in Sunday school or leave society or a testimony meeting. But the truth is the average church member is a sensible, reasonable, thoughtful, compassionate person. Really, in my experience. But oftentimes the loud mouths that speak up in Sunday school are the ones that we then judge the entire congregation by. And if you would take the time to get to know the membership, you would understand that that's not representative. Mormons are by and large good, honest, sincere people that are worth getting to

John Dehlin [01:08:21] know and not painted with the broad brush.

John Dehlin [01:08:25] Seek out like minded Folk in your ward. It was so refreshing for me to

Building Community as a Nuanced Member

John Dehlin [01:08:28] find Steve and Chris Jones in my ward here in Issaquah.

John Dehlin [01:08:31] It was almost like a lifeline for

John Dehlin [01:08:33] me in many ways.

John Dehlin [01:08:34] And every ward, even in North Logan, has people who can empathize and understand and talk to. And so you can find them if you want to look for them. Go to the bishop and say, who has left the church or gone inactive over cultural or historical issues. Can I be their home teacher? I've done this. I've even helped bring people back to the church because I'd go to them and say, you know what? I've been there, brother, and I understand and you're not alone, but I need someone there to make church pleasant for me, so will you please come back? It's easy to blame everything on the leadership, but I have people very close to me who are very close to the top leaders of the church. You would be very surprised at how much change they would like to see, but don't know how to steer a 12, 13 million person organization in a fast way. And sometimes the brethren are preaching very progressive, enlightened messages, but the members aren't listening. Things like, you know, your job and your family come before your callings. They're saying that all the time now, but you'll still get people in the ward who say, never turn down a calling. And that's not what's being taught now. They're teaching simplify, simplify, simplify. Yet there's lots of people who are trying to make it so complex and burdensome. There are lots and lots of examples and so understand and have empathy for the fact that it's hard to steer such a large ship with international members in multiple languages. 5 million active members, you know, have empathy for their position. Always protect yourselves and your loved ones. Don't set yourself up to have your child abused by a home teacher or a Boy Scout leader so that then you can get angry at the church that your child was abused. It won't be your fault, but at the same time, you should never be irresponsible that way. A lot of us go to church as if that's the place that's going to fill us. The church isn't always the place that's going to help us reach the highest levels of spirituality. Some of that burden rests on ourselves, and that's even doctrinal. Seek ye out of the best books. And so don't look to church as your sole source of spirituality. Seek out good books. Seek out nature, seek out family time Meaningful friends exercise small groups of people and supplement your spirituality because the church is not going to meet all your spiritual needs that way because it can't meet everyone's needs.

John Dehlin [01:11:19] Across such a diverse perspective.

John Dehlin [01:11:22] Church is a place to serve and not always to be served, although you will get served when you're struggling. I'll never forget when I was struggling in Issaquah Ward and feeling really isolated, there was a member

John Dehlin [01:11:39] who empathized with

John Dehlin [01:11:40] me and he called me up and he said, john, can I take you fishing? Can I take you fly fishing? He took me to a fishing store. He bought me a fly rod and boots and overalls and he took me fishing. And during that fishing exercise, he said, you know what I've been through, what

John Dehlin [01:11:56] you're going through right now.

John Dehlin [01:11:58] That was the last thing I was

John Dehlin [01:12:00] expecting and it meant a great deal.

John Dehlin [01:12:02] And so look at church as a place to serve because where else are you going to find out about who has cancer and who's pregnant and who needs sod laid in their house? You can live in a neighborhood for 10 years and never know the people

John Dehlin [01:12:15] right across the street from from you if you live in a non Utah area.

John Dehlin [01:12:18] But in the church, you meet 20 families within four weeks of living there and learn to find out how you

John Dehlin [01:12:26] can meet their needs.

John Dehlin [01:12:28] This is a very important point, and

John Dehlin [01:12:29] I know we're kind of going long, so I'll try and hurry up.

John Dehlin [01:12:33] A lot of people who are frustrated with the church lose common courtesy and they treat members of the church worse than they would ever treat members of another faith. You would never go up to a Muslim and say, you know, that Quran

John Dehlin [01:12:45] of yours isn't all perfect and that

John Dehlin [01:12:48] Mohammed guy actually did a couple really interesting things. You want to talk about it? You never do that. You never go to a Catholic and say, hey, let's talk about that priest

John Dehlin [01:12:57] little thing that happened in that diocese over there.

John Dehlin [01:12:59] He would never do it. Yet Mormons think that they can go in front of everyone's Sunday school when we're disaffected and just blabber it all out to everybody. Well, that's just not good manners and

John Dehlin [01:13:08] it's not common courtesy.

John Dehlin [01:13:10] So don't treat LDS devout people any

John Dehlin [01:13:12] differently than you would anybody else.

John Dehlin [01:13:15] Understand the one true church position. Successful growing churches make absolute truth claims. Churches that water down those truth claims become less relevant and significant. For the most part, the brethren believe it's the one true church. If you look at what the Reorganized church did, although I have much respect for what they did because it was a position of great integrity. Look at their membership now, after they said, well, maybe it's not about blood descent and maybe Joseph was a polygamist after all. We were wrong for 150 years. A few decades later, their membership's down by 70%. It's not necessarily realistic to expect the churches to act in a way that's going to destroy themselves and move past

John Dehlin [01:14:00] this binary worldview of its, you know, either in or out of the Church.

John Dehlin [01:14:04] And probably the most important thing I

John Dehlin [01:14:06] can convey is seek to understand why

John Dehlin [01:14:09] are the brethren acting the way they're acting?

John Dehlin [01:14:11] Why are bishops acting the way they're acting? Why are relief study presidents and priesthood leaders acting the way they're acting?

John Dehlin [01:14:17] These people were raised in devout homes. They served missions at an early age. They've had little time to really reflect or study history. They sincerely believe past attempts, from the Church's perspective, to be open have often backfired. Is it realistic to expect them to undermine their own authority and apologize for every little thing that happens all the time and understand that they're managing for the many, not for the few? And if they were to come out with all these apologies and let's talk openly about all the history, yeah, it may help 1%, it may help us, may help us 1%, although it may push many of us out because it just becomes a validation and a confirmation

John Dehlin [01:14:58] of all the things that bother us.

John Dehlin [01:14:59] But then what's it going to do to the other 99% that didn't know

John Dehlin [01:15:02] about this stuff and isn't equipped to deal with it?

John Dehlin [01:15:05] So you have to understand their dilemma in not being able to do everything

John Dehlin [01:15:08] you would like them to do.

John Dehlin [01:15:10] And understand that when someone's an orthodox religious person, there's often a reason. Maybe they're fearful of death, maybe they've had a death in the family and sincerely hope to see that person again someday. Maybe they're depressed or addicted to something. Maybe they've been divorced and they're lonely. And to just sort of, you know, tell them it's all a fraud or to challenge the fundamental underpinnings of their faith is like running up to a four year old and saying, ha, ha, Santa Claus, did you know he's not really true. I just thought I'd tell you. It's not very respectful. And so if somebody is even devout and obnoxious, chances are there's a good reason why. And if you got to know them

John Dehlin [01:15:53] and love them, you'd find out that they deserve respect.

John Dehlin [01:15:58] I won't get into James Fowler's Stages of Faith. But know that this thing that we're going through is something that many people

John Dehlin [01:16:05] in many faiths have experienced.

John Dehlin [01:16:07] Stage three being this notion of everything in the world makes sense, all the pieces fit. You or someone in your community have all the answers, and your thinking has really come from the authority figures within your tradition. But then oftentimes a life experience will cause you to acknowledge other perspectives as valid, and maybe you begin to pull apart your beliefs. It's kind of like the saying that the water may have certain qualities, but the fish is likely to be the last person to actually be able to discover them and describe them. Why? Because the water is all the fish has ever known. And so as you begin to pull apart your beliefs, you start taking responsibility. And it can lead to anger and bitterness and resentment. But there's also this danger of falling a bit too in love with your own positions. But there's this fifth stage that I would encourage all of you to strive for. And that's realizing that there's deep and meaning in the universe beyond rationalism and humanism. That there is. You can re immerse yourselves in finding value in myth and tradition and imperfection and paradox. And that can become, as I mentioned before, some of the most transcendent states to become. And so I would encourage you to

John Dehlin [01:17:24] use this situation as a way to become even more developed.

John Dehlin [01:17:26] And as I've met people in the Sunstone community who typify this, I think of people like Molly, and I don't

John Dehlin [01:17:34] mean to embarrass you, or Bonner or

John Dehlin [01:17:36] Dan or Armand Moss or Bill Bradshaw or Laurel Thatcher Ulrich or Darius Gray. Do you know people who are active in the church who just seem wise and compassionate and amazingly profound? Rarely, in my experience, are these the people who got angry and left. These are the people who know everything that we know, but have found a way to deal with it all, have transcended it and have decided to stay. These are the people that I want to hang around with. These are the people that make me

John Dehlin [01:18:09] want to be a better person.

John Dehlin [01:18:11] And I would challenge all of you and myself to seek to try and

John Dehlin [01:18:13] become this type of person.

John Dehlin [01:18:15] A great essay to read is why

John Dehlin [01:18:16] the Church is as True as the Gospel.

Closing Reflections and Final Song

John Dehlin [01:18:18] And there's this last song I want

John Dehlin [01:18:20] to share with you if you'll allow me to.

John Dehlin [01:18:22] That, in my mind captivates where I'm

John Dehlin [01:18:24] trying to get to.

John Dehlin [01:18:26] It represents a place where it goes from viewing things in a level 3 binary worldview to a place of much

John Dehlin [01:18:36] more transcendence and love and it's from a man named Peter Mayer and the song is called Holy now.

▶ Video Clip 3

Video Clip 3 [01:18:57] When I was a boy each week Sunday we would go to church pay attention to the priests and he would read the holy word and consecrate the holy bread and everyone would kneel and bow Today the only difference is everything is holding out Everything, everything everything is holding now. When I was in Sunday school we were learn about the night Moses breath see it too keeps us with the

Video Clip 3 [01:19:50] waterline

Video Clip 3 [01:19:52] I remember feeling sad miracles don't happen still now I can't keep track cuz everything's a miracle Everything, everything everything's beautiful.

Video Clip 3 [01:20:17] Wine

Video Clip 3 [01:20:20] from water is not so strong A better magic tricky thing is here at home so challenging things become Got to look for miracles to find where there isn't one. When holy water was a prayer at rest really where my fingertips and now I have to hold my breath and stood in the spirit see a It used to be a world out there Heaven sucking right down me now But I walk in the reverend there Cuz everything is holy now. Sailing See it's not a testament that be very hard to say

Video Clip 3 [01:21:58] See another

Video Clip 3 [01:22:01] new morning

Video Clip 3 [01:22:04] it's not a sacrament good can be done. This morning outside I stood saw a little red wing bird shining like a burning bush Singing like a scripture made me want to bow my head I remember when church lit up how things have changed since then Everything is holding down it used to be a world out there Heaven second rate hand me down But I walk it with the Reverend hair Cuz everything is whole.

John Dehlin [01:23:17] I guess I'll just end with my

John Dehlin [01:23:19] testimony that I have a strong belief and a conviction that there is a

John Dehlin [01:23:27] God or a force or some type of meaning and purpose to this existence. That the teachings of Jesus are inspired and lead you to a more fulfilled

John Dehlin [01:23:36] and a happy life.

John Dehlin [01:23:38] That the Book of Mormon is a

John Dehlin [01:23:39] transcending inspirational document and inspired

John Dehlin [01:23:45] Joseph Smith

John Dehlin [01:23:48] was brilliant and a genius and in many ways incredibly inspirational and taught incredible truths.

John Dehlin [01:23:57] President Hinckley in the church have much

John Dehlin [01:24:01] inspiration and good that have benefited my life in amazing ways. And to me are things that are worth keeping.

John Dehlin [01:24:17] And so for those who are interested

John Dehlin [01:24:19] in this path, it's not for everyone.

John Dehlin [01:24:21] I encourage you to keep going to

John Dehlin [01:24:23] church even when it's hard because it's hard. Keep praying, keep reading the scriptures as mundane as those things are often as the Sunday school answers stay open because

John Dehlin [01:24:36] changes happen and light comes when you

John Dehlin [01:24:39] never would expect it. I've seen it happen with many, many people make a difference by staying build

John Dehlin [01:24:47] credit in your church by serving. And then when you build up credit because you've been there at the service

John Dehlin [01:24:52] activities and helped out Brother Jones and

John Dehlin [01:24:54] Sister Smith, then spend that credit judiciously in ways that improve people's lives.

John Dehlin [01:25:00] Not just that shocks them or makes them feel defensive.

John Dehlin [01:25:05] And you can change hearts and minds

John Dehlin [01:25:07] one at a time to help people come to a more enlightened place. Yes, this path isn't for everyone.

John Dehlin [01:25:13] It takes lots of work. You really have to love people to

John Dehlin [01:25:17] want to engage on this path. And fasten your seat belts because. Because it's hard. But in my experience so far, it's been worth it.

John Dehlin [01:25:24] There are a lot of resources that can help why the Church Is As True as the Gospel is a great essay. What the Church Means to People Like Me by Richard Paul. A book called for those who Wonder.

John Dehlin [01:25:34] There's a website called New Order Mormon that can help. I've written an essay or two that you can find on my blog if any of you are interested. And Sun, Son and Dialogue and James Fowler's Stages of Faith are all things that I recommend. And I won't play my last song because we're out of time. Or I can play it for those of you who want to stay around. But I just thank you for your time and I hope you found something today that's been of value and of meaning. So that's it. Thank you.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.