Introducing the New LDS Pamphlet on Homosexuality

Part 1 of 3 · Ep. 85

John Dehlin [00:00:24] Okay, thank you again for being here today at the 2007 Northwest Sunstone Symposium. We very much enjoyed the previous two presentations and now we're very excited to present to you a panel entitled God Loveth His A New LDS Pamphlet on Homosexuality.

John Dehlin [00:00:48] And so, without any further ado. Well, I'll read the abstract. A new pamphlet about homosexuality appeared on the church's website in late July 2007. The pamphlet is entitled God Loveth His Children and Among Us Things says that the church does not know what causes same sex attractions, but does not believe sexual abuse and sexual spirit imitation in childhood are responsible. It declares that same sex attractions are not considered sinful, but affirms that acting on those attractions is incompatible with God's plan for families in the afterlife. It urges same sex attraction LDS members to remain active in the church and asks other members to treat them with love and respect.

John Dehlin [00:01:31] This panel will discuss the new pamphlet and welcome a wide ranging and frank discussion on this important topic. So without any further ado, I'd like to turn the time over to Ron Skau from Pocatello, Idaho, who will be the moderator for this panel. So, Ron Schow.

Ron Schow [00:01:53] Thank you, John. It's always fun to be involved with the Sunstone group. I've been doing Sunstone for 25 or 30 years. I haven't figured it out, but it's always exciting. And it's a little different to come to a Northwest symposium because, you know, when we're in Salt Lake, we have a variety of choices. And so when I have spoken in the past at a session discussing homosexuality, it tends to draw a particular crowd. And in this particular case, everyone who is part of the symposium is going to be participating. So I've been thinking about that a little bit and realizing that we would like to use this opportunity.

Ron Schow [00:02:50] I've been wanting for a long time to discuss this in Sunday school. Twice a month I lead a discussion discussion, a home evening discussion for the little branch where I participate. And since this new pamphlet came out, I've been trying to decide whether I feel brave enough to discuss the pamphlet because my lesson material always comes from the Ensign.

Ron Schow [00:03:19] And so there is a pamphlet or there is an article in the Ensign this month on same gender attraction. Well, anyway, with this Sunstone group, we are used to talking with you about homosexuality. And so it's interesting to try to figure out what part of that to talk about.

Ron Schow [00:03:42] It was interesting to see that when President Eyring got his first question at the press conference a week ago, it was on same gender attraction. It was on homosexuality. It seems to be very much on a lot of people's minds these days, and it's on the minds of a lot of members of the church.

Ron Schow [00:04:04] I enjoyed John's session last night over at Molly's home. And the sessions today have been fascinating. Seems like we're talking about a personal crisis of faith in almost every session. And certainly there are elements of this subject that create personal crises of faith for people.

Ron Schow [00:04:32] It creates it for people and for families. And in general, it comes to involve all of us. I, John, asked a few questions to the group last night, and I'm going to be brave enough to ask a question or two here. I don't know how comfortable people are to raise their hands, but maybe we'll get a little flavor for what the involvement of the group might be.

Ron Schow [00:05:07] For example, I wonder how many of you here know someone who is gay or lesbian or transgendered or has a sexual orientation issue? How many of you is there? It looks like that's virtually everybody in the room. Maybe a few exceptions. And I would present myself to you as someone who has looked at this very, very carefully over a long period of time.

Ron Schow [00:05:41] What's exciting to me is I believe that the leaders of the church are beginning to believe this, and they're beginning to put out statements that support the position that I just took. That is, it's not a choice and it doesn't go away. And I believe that when the members of the church believe, as the leaders seem to be believing, that we'll be in a very different place on this issue. But we're just starting to get there. Let me just say, having said that much by way of introduction, that we have a variety of things to discuss here with you today. We're going to talk a little bit about how the church position seems to have changed in the last 20 years.

Ron Schow [00:06:33] And then we're going to have an opportunity to talk a little bit about it. Personal report. Clark's going to tell us about his experience, and we're going to talk a little bit about the family situation with the Pingree family. So let me just tell you that I have this history with the subject.

Ron Schow [00:07:02] I began working with it because of some interests that were in my family. My nephew was gay and he died of aids. So it became an issue in my broader family. I had a background, having had a bachelor's degree at Utah State in biology, a minor in psychology.

Ron Schow [00:07:30] So I became interested and helped publish Peculiar People. That was in 1991. Let me say a couple of other things that I became involved with. But I'll tell you also at the same time that I'm a father of five, I'm a grandfather of 12, I'm a emeritus professor from Idaho State University where I teach in the audiology program.

Ron Schow [00:08:00] I'm executive secretary over home teaching in this small branch that I talked about. And then in terms of other things that I've done on the subject of homosexuality, we created a pamphlet a few years ago called the Persistence of Same Sex Attraction in Latter Day Saints who Undergo Counseling or change Therapy.

Ron Schow [00:08:23] This is a report from about five different sources that describes the outcomes when we look at large numbers of people, including about 800 who had gone to one LDS Family Services therapist. This is one of the reports we pulled together. It's jointly authored by William Bradshaw from BYU and from Mary Beth Raines and from Robert Reese.

Ron Schow [00:08:59] Bob Reese was a bishop in the Los Angeles area for five years and over that period of time worked with about 50 who were dealing with same sex attraction. So that was another thing that we did besides this was that we created a book called A Guide for Latter Day Saint Families Dealing with Homosexual attraction. And this was sold a Deseret book for a period of time. This also is jointly authored by the four of us that I just described.

Ron Schow [00:09:37] In addition, we created three documentaries that John was good enough to put up on the Internet. And but these, I feel the message of them is it's not a choice and it doesn't go away. And the good news is John tells me the three documentaries have now been watched over 100,000 times.

Ron Schow [00:10:05] So that's pretty exciting for us. One other thing, just to plug Levi's dialogue a little bit, I was involved in writing an article for Dialogue about a year ago which deals with the subject of mixed orientation marriages. Someone gay marrying someone who's straight.

How the Church's Position on Homosexuality Has Evolved

Ron Schow [00:10:31] So these are some ways I've been involved. And I am a very avid church watcher. I'm very interested in what the church position is on this and how it's changed and so forth. And so that's what I'll be talking to you about.

Ron Schow [00:10:50] But we have in addition to the church position or the position of church leaders, we have the position of members and some of the family dynamics that I've alluded to. And so we'll get Clark to tell you a little bit about his story.

Ron Schow [00:11:13] And Clark graduated from BYU in 2001. He's employed by Wells Fargo, currently living and located in Salt Lake City and soon moving to the Bay Area. Clark has been affiliated with Sunstone for Eight years. And some of you may know that Toby is his uncle. So he's part of this prominent Pingree family.

Ron Schow [00:11:41] Toby was, of course, the chair of Sunstone for many years. And Clark began the process of being openly gay about a year and a half ago. So he'll tell us more about that story. Dan Pingree, his brother, has lived in Seattle for six years.

Ron Schow [00:12:03] He's married and the father of one daughter. Is it Britain? And his wife is Kristen, who was at the session last night. Dan says I should announce that he is an avowed heterosexual. And he's a graduate of BYU and Harvard, and he's currently employed by Drugstore.com in Bellevue, Washington.

Ron Schow [00:12:32] So, anyway, that's the three of us. Let me just say in whatever time I have left that I want to tell you. There's this interesting history of the documents that the Church has produced on homosexuality, beginning in about 1965, when President Kimball began to publish different articles. This is called Love Versus Lust.

Ron Schow [00:13:01] That's an address he gave at BYU in which he talks about homosexuality quite a bit. Here's Hope for Transgressors, 1970. So many kinds of voices. These are fairly extensive treatments of the subject. That was 1971. Here's New Horizons for Homosexuals, 1971. A Letter to a Friend, 1978. These are very much the same kind of message.

Ron Schow [00:13:29] I didn't bring his book. But what is in here is very similar to Miracle of Forgiveness. Here's Boyd K. Packer, 1976, called Two Young Men Only. And here's to the one by Elder Packer, which he gave at BYU in 1978. Which brings us, in terms of more or less official statements, to a 1992 guide.

Ron Schow [00:14:04] It has the official stamp of the Church on it, the official copyright, and it's called Understanding and Helping those who have Homosexual Problems. Suggestions for ecclesiastical leaders. That's 1992. This is the last thing we had from the church of an official nature until this came out in July of this year. So this is called God Loveth His Children.

Ron Schow [00:14:36] And it indicates here that it was approved in April, and so then it appeared in in July. It's on the church website. And as near as I can tell, this is the new official church position replacing this pamphlet, by the way, we got a new church handbook within the past year. And that church handbook references this guideline, indicating that it was the official position until now.

Ron Schow [00:15:12] But hopefully when the new handbook comes out, it will reference this one, because in my judgment, this is a great improvement over this one. Just the names would tell you something. Here it's a homosexual problem, and here it's the rather neutral God loveth his children.

Ron Schow [00:15:33] So I think maybe I could go through some of the statements in this one and in this one and show you how things have changed and how they've improved. But I don't think we'll have time for that, except maybe on a question basis. But let me just summarize it by going through what we handed out and hopefully everyone has a copy of that.

Ron Schow [00:16:10] I think the most significant thing in the new pamphlet, let me just add that it seems to me that this new position that has emerged now just in the last year came first in the form of an interview with Elder Oaks and Elder Wickman, which was placed on the church website in August of 2006.

Ron Schow [00:16:42] It was then followed by God loveth his children in July of 2007, and then just this month with an article by Elder Holland. So this is in the Ensign this month. If you haven't seen it, you'll want to take a look at it.

Ron Schow [00:17:01] Those three, I think, were all designed to come out together and to be viewed together. At least that's my assessment of it. I believe that they were carefully designed and carefully approved by all of the apostles and the First Presidency.

Ron Schow [00:17:25] And so to come back then to what I think is the most important thing that is acknowledged in these three new statements, it's this suggestion that same gender attraction is a core characteristic of persons. Now, Elder Wichman is the one who said that, but they do in fact refer to it as orientation, which it seems to me is a major concession.

Ron Schow [00:17:56] In other words, up until now it's often been viewed as a sin or as a problem, but now it is seen as a core characteristic of persons. They do, of course, say that it's not the only characteristic, but it is one. And so I think that's a big and important concession number two. The church has no position on nature or nurture with respect to same gender attraction. And I think that also is very important.

Ron Schow [00:18:29] If you go back to the statements of the 60s and 70s, they're full of no one is born gay. And that particular statement was made over and over again. But you do not find it in these three new statements.

Ron Schow [00:18:55] The closest we get to that is Elder Oaks in the interview says, we do not believe that anyone is born with something that they cannot control. So we seem to have moved away from taking a position on whether or not people are born gay. And Elder Oaks and Elder Rickman are very clear that the church has no position on nature or nurture.

Ron Schow [00:19:28] We also know that President Hinckley in 2004 made a statement on Larry King in which he was asked, are people born gay? And President Hinckley said, I don't know. I am not an expert on these things. I don't pretend to be an expert on these things. So I think it's pretty clear that they have moved into this place where there's no position on nature or nurture. And that's a very good thing.

Ron Schow [00:20:05] Part of these statements emphasize attractions alone do not make you unworthy. And that is part of something that's been happening in the church handbooks. But this is the first time it's actually been said in just this emphatic kind of way. Attractions alone do not make you unworthy. The 1992 statement says that people should be able to overcome these feelings and that if you're righteous enough or do the right therapy or whatever, that, that this can go away.

Ron Schow [00:20:51] So the suggestion is that you're not worthy if you still have those feelings. But here in these three new statements we're getting very clearly, attractions alone do not make you unworthy. Number four, therapy is no longer being promised as a cure all for same gender attraction. And marriage is not a cure all for same gender attraction. We could go into that. But suffice it to say those are important things that have been coming. But they're made much more clearer now in these three new statements.

Ron Schow [00:21:29] Church callings are not denied to those with same gender attraction. So that goes along with the attractions do not make you unworthy, so you're worthy to hold any church position. This last one, same gender attraction will be fixed in the next life. As near as I can tell, that is brand new with the interviews in connection with the PBS documentary. That's the first time I think I have ever heard that position articulated, namely that it's alright if it can't be fixed in this life, it will be fixed in the next life.

Ron Schow [00:22:10] So based upon what we were reading here, that didn't come up because of course if you were worthy enough, if you did the right kind of therapy, you were going to be fixed in this life. But now that that is not the position, then we have a new suggestion and that is that it will be fixed in the next life.

Ron Schow [00:22:31] So there are definitely some concerns about the new pamphlet. I've mentioned a couple of them here. One of the issues is that it really doesn't go beyond those who are still listening and in the fold. It's designed for people who are younger, I think, and for people who still are in a position that they're responding to the authority of their church.

Ron Schow [00:23:02] So Clark will maybe introduce us to the issues for someone who has stepped beyond that. But there is one little olive leaf here, and that is that it is there's this wonderful statement in the last paragraph of the pamphlet which I think is a way to reach out.

Ron Schow [00:23:28] And I don't know how we as members are going to respond to this or just what the brethren have in mind when they say this, but they say no one is or ever could be excluded from the circle of God's love or the extended arms of his church, for we are all his beloved sons and daughters.

Ron Schow [00:23:47] So my question, I guess is how will the church and how will will the Lord extend His arms to those who have stepped away from the church and who maybe have found a same sex partner? How will we as members extend our arms to those folks? Well, there's a lot more we could talk about, but I think it's time to let Clark tell us his story. Sam.

One Gay Latter-day Saint's Faith and Identity

Part 2 of 3 · Ep. 86

Ron Schow [00:00:20] Growing up in an active LDS family, the plan of Salvation has been a concept that has been second nature to me for as long as I can recall. Knowing where I came from, why I'm here on earth, and where I'm going after this life gives me comfort in leading a meaningful life.

Ron Schow [00:00:38] I've always believed that I am loved by heavenly parents who understand the core makeup of my soul. Although I always don't fully understand my path and life, I know that this higher power knows better than I do. My view of the plan of salvation as a gay child of God is unique.

Ron Schow [00:00:59] I don't necessarily subscribe to the traditional cut and dry LDs definition of this plan. I believe the plan of salvation is more all inclusive of God's children than we might perceive, including his homosexual children. I stand here today to declare my convictions pertaining to the plan of salvation. For me, in my own life, this is a cherished experience for me because this is the first time of which I am expressing my religious convictions publicly as a gay Latter Day Saint.

Ron Schow [00:01:34] Just as all members of the LDS Church are given the opportunity to stand before their peers and bear witness of their convictions, I stand here today to declare my beliefs concerning God's all inclusive plan of salvation. I grew up as a devout Latter Day Saint. During my teenage years, I never veered from the straight and narrow path.

Ron Schow [00:01:54] I went on a mission at age 19 and I obeyed every mission rule with exactness with the exception of one can of Pepsi I secretly consumed on New Year's Eve. I worked myself to exhaustion on my mission and I probably burned out a few too many of my missionary companions out of my somewhat obsessive execution of hard work.

Ron Schow [00:02:15] However, I look back on my mission with very fond memories. Through all of my years growing up, I always knew there was something different about me. What my oddity was, I was not sure, but I knew I was different from my friends.

Ron Schow [00:02:30] In middle school, my friends started becoming interested in girls, but I didn't. In fact, I became annoyed when my male friends started taking less of an interest in me and more of an interest in the opposite sex. Through high school, my mission, and through college, I was reminded of being different. But I never identified how I was different, nor did I want to.

Ron Schow [00:02:52] I just wanted to be like everybody else. So I pretended to be just like everybody else. My college years at BYU set in and this thing that made me different began to wear me down to the point that I knew I had to face my ugly reality.

Ron Schow [00:03:07] My soul ached as I could not reconcile what I then referred to as my same sex attraction or my cross to barren life or my ultimate test. For the next six years, I longed to somehow find a way to conform to God's plan of salvation.

Ron Schow [00:03:25] I believed I had to marry a woman, have children and raise them up righteously in order to be a part of this plan of salvation. I spent many years in despair, constantly on my knees, pleading with God to change me and help me understand where I fit within this plan of salvation.

Ron Schow [00:03:43] I eventually concluded that perhaps I could comply with the plan of salvation if I just remained single, celibate and alone my whole life. After all, many women in the church face this same predicament. Just like with them, perhaps in the next life the perfect match will be waiting on the other side of the veil.

Ron Schow [00:04:02] This would therefore make me eligible for the highest degree of the celestial kingdom and and gain the blessings of the plan of salvation. There was one problem with this logic, however. To be partnered with a woman physically, emotionally, spiritually and personally throughout all eternity is not my definition of celestial glory. It is my definition of hell.

Ron Schow [00:04:27] Since I never chose to be gay and never having had any experiences in life that turned me gay, I could not envision my body or soul being un gay at any future point in time. Eternity included. A statement from the pamphlet God loveth His Children reads, as we follow Heavenly Father's plan, our bodies, feelings and desires will be perfected in the next life so that every one of God's children may find joy in a family consisting of a husband, a wife and children.

Ron Schow [00:05:01] I struggle with this statement as I look back on my life and contemplate the struggle and despair in reconciling my homosexuality. This attitude has been the most damning to my soul through inflicting feelings of inadequacy, anguish and despair.

Ron Schow [00:05:18] To me, this statement is one from a heterosexual majority to a homosexual minority, affirming that because I am not like most, I must be deformed. For years I lived under this premonition, except accepting that I was in fact a spiritual and physical abnormality because of my homosexuality. This statement of mine is a horrible way to live.

Ron Schow [00:05:42] I cannot express the turmoil that existed inside of me as I lived under this cloud of who you are isn't good enough, but keep looking forward to the resurrection to fix your soul. Not only am I biologically programmed to be homosexual, but also my soul is programmed to be homosexual.

Ron Schow [00:06:01] Because of this, I do not believe my homosexuality will convert to heterosexuality at my physical death, nor at the resurrection. Human to human interaction to me is complex and fascinating. Like my heterosexual pairs are drawn towards the opposite gender.

Ron Schow [00:06:20] I am drawn towards my own gender based on the same dimensions of attraction, the magical connection of two souls, spiritually, emotionally, personally and physically. My dreams and intents are just like those of a heterosexual companionship, strength, support, intimacy, stability and eternal growth.

Ron Schow [00:06:44] My homosexuality extends far beyond physical attraction. For whatever reasons God saw fit, my soul was created as homosexual. My creation cannot be altered. I believe it's a dangerous game to defy one's own creation. We see time and time again the dangers of fighting one's creation. As we've recently seen with Larry Craig and Ted Haggard. They and their loved ones have been placed in harm's way as a result of defying their creation.

Ron Schow [00:07:19] I would much rather spend my energy devoting love to a same sex partner through a responsible, monogamous and caring relationship than to spend my life making hand signals under bathroom stalls or partaking of methamphetamine with male prostitutes. Elder Jeffrey Holland's recent October Ensign article entitled Helping those with Same Gender Attraction states, through the exercise of faith, individual effort, and reliance upon the power of atonement, some may overcome same gender attraction, immortality and marry.

Ron Schow [00:07:54] Others, however, may never be freed of same gender attraction in this life. I do not consider myself trapped in my orientation and mortality, nor do I anticipate I will be rid of it in the next life. After all, it is a part of the core makeup of my soul.

Ron Schow [00:08:12] I do not consider my homosexuality to be a personal retardation of which I will be released from at some point in eternity. I'm happy to be just who I am. I have no desire to be freed from myself.

Ron Schow [00:08:26] I have a few scars on my body, I have a large nose, my hairline is receding, I get frequent headaches, and my teeth aren't as white as I'd like them to be. Perhaps many of my perceived physical abnormalities will be fixed through the resurrection.

Ron Schow [00:08:42] I welcome these changes, as well as other changes that might bring my physical body to its full potential. The view of my soul, however, is different. I love my soul and I love who I am. I do not want my soul to be altered in any form as I believe the makeup of my soul is how God intended it to be.

Ron Schow [00:09:03] To imply that my soul will be resurrected based on the premise of my sexual orientation is hurtful to me. Because there is little known about the progression of a homosexual child of God, I've had to forge my own understanding of what God's plan is for me in this life.

Ron Schow [00:09:22] Many of my questions remain unanswered but I found special meaning in the words of Moroni. Oh, then despise not and wonder not, but hearken unto the words of the Lord, and ask the Father in the name of Jesus, for whatsoever ye shall stand in need, doubt not but be believing, and begin as in times of old, and come unto the Lord with all your heart, and work out your own salvation with fear and trembling before him.

Ron Schow [00:09:47] I believe the plan of salvation includes the eternal progression of a homosexual as a homosexual, Moses teaching Joshua as cited in the Book of Mormon, teaches me a powerful principle in my search for answers to the plan of salvation in my own life.

Ron Schow [00:10:04] And Moses said unto him, enviest thou for my sake? Would God that all the Lord's people were prophets and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them? As Moses explains, we must become prophets unto ourselves and navigate our path in life according to the will of God.

Ron Schow [00:10:23] I don't have the luxury of my LDS peers of a clearly defined plan of salvation for my life. However, I believe I was a homosexual in the pre existence. I am clearly a homosexual in mortality, and I strongly believe I will be a homosexual in the next life.

Ron Schow [00:10:40] With this said, few reasonable alternatives are offered to me by the LDS Church as to how to lead a happy life. I know that a life of solitude, silence, and false hope for change is not my plan of happiness.

Ron Schow [00:10:54] To sit in the corner in silence about whom I am hoping for a change that will not occur, while looking forward to living and dying alone, hoping to be transformed into a person who I am not is not what I would consider happiness.

Ron Schow [00:11:10] Since I believe I am eternally homosexual, celibacy and mortality seems pointless for me. Eternally. God wants me to be happy. I also believe he created me as who I am for a reason. I no longer believe I will face damnation for finding and loving a soulmate in this life.

Ron Schow [00:11:31] And just as my heterosexual peers have the privilege to live with their eternal soulmate throughout the eternities, I also believe I will not be denied that same privilege. I recognize that my beliefs pertaining to homosexuality deviate from the Church's approach.

Ron Schow [00:11:48] In years past, I thought this disconnect would haunt me for life. Some say that my beliefs on the eternal nature of my homosexuality indicate that I've been misled. I recall one of my favorite Bible passages from the Book of Matthew where Jesus states, beware of false prophets which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits.

Ron Schow [00:12:13] The fruits that I have seen come to pass in My life, by the acceptance of the eternal nature of my soul have been astoundingly positive. I found new fulfillment and peace that I never knew was possible. Amazing changes have occurred in my life as I've come to accept myself for whom God created me to be.

Ron Schow [00:12:35] I'm no longer fighting internal, grueling internal battles. Heavy burdens have been lifted of which I used to carry day and night. I feel free. I used to be hopeless and now I am hopeful. I wake up with a smile on my face, Eager to face the challenges of each day.

Ron Schow [00:13:00] I enjoy a better quality of life. I feel more resolute spiritually and emotionally. My friendships are more abundant and have greater depth and understanding. My work ethic and my focus on life's goals have intensified. I treat people with more kindness than I used to. I'm optimistic about my personal challenges.

Ron Schow [00:13:24] My family relationships have become more honest and as is evident today, I've developed a stronger, more loyal relationship with my brother. I laugh a lot more. I see endless possibilities ahead of me. Each day seems to be better than the day before.

Ron Schow [00:13:44] I live the gospel more realistically than I have before. The saving power of Christ's grace has become an empowering force in my daily life. I have a clear understanding of what it means to be a Christian. I found a new love of the two great commandments of loving God and loving one's neighbor. No exceptions.

Ron Schow [00:14:07] Best of all, my soul no longer aches. This self legitimacy has been one of the greatest gifts that I have ever given myself. As explained by Christ in the previous Bible passage, these fruits are virtuous and I am thereby led to believe I am pursuing a life that is right for me, including the complete acceptance of my homosexuality. If I were misled, there is no possible way I could experience such godly changes in my life.

Ron Schow [00:14:40] Some might argue that my beliefs in my eternal nature are not doctrinally sound. Often the Old Testament's Levitical code is used as harsh ammunition to subjugate any open form of dialogue around homosexuality. If we truly remain consistent with the Old Testament's rejection of homosexuality, and then we must also legalize polygamy, encourage concubinage, legalize prostitution, prohibit inter tribal and interracial marriage, ban all forms of birth control, strip women of their civil rights and marry off our 13 year old daughters, clearly our adherence to the Levitical code is inconsistent.

Ron Schow [00:15:23] Additionally, as Latter Day Saints we we believe the Book of Mormon to be the truest book on the face of the earth to act as a compass to us in the last days yet the Book of Mormon is amazingly silent on the subject of homosexuality.

Ron Schow [00:15:40] The Doctrine and Covenants, meant to be a specific guide to us in the latter day era of the Gospel, is also completely silent on the matter. Joseph Smith, inspired by James Read if any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God. Just like the prophet Joseph, I've experienced confusion as to my place in the Kingdom of God and where I fit into God's plan.

Ron Schow [00:16:01] Piece by piece, I've received answers from my Creator which has given me more and more clarity with each passing day. I doubt I will ever have all the answers to my questions surrounding my orientation, but I believe I will continue to receive answers day by day to help me find more happiness with each passing day.

Ron Schow [00:16:22] I've never been happier knowing that I indeed have a place in the plan of salvation as a legitimate homosexual. God created me this way and despite societal rejection of my claim, I know that he is happy with who I am.

Ron Schow [00:16:37] I don't have all the answers, but I strongly believe that I have a place in the Kingdom of God As a gay child of God, Having this peace of mind makes fighting any of today's external battles easy. At last I am happy and resolved before God with who I am.

A Family Member's Perspective on Supporting a Gay Sibling

John Dehlin [00:17:07] It's nice to be with you today. I am here today solely to support my brother Clark. My response to my brother Clark is I love you and I support you. Now that you are open about being gay, you are reconsidering life's paths, some of which remain in the church while others lead well beyond what you have known for most of your life.

John Dehlin [00:17:29] Whichever path you choose, whether in the church or not, my hope is that you will always honestly seek truth and continue to pursue opportunities to become a better person, a more enlightened, knowledgeable, tolerant, loving and spiritual person, so that you will continue to experience the joy that this life was intended to offer.

John Dehlin [00:17:50] Your revelation today requires courage and it reflects a trust in and regard for the Sunstone community as a place of openness and diversity. This panel is an important step for you in coming to terms with your identity and will allow you to peacefully move on and lead a productive life.

John Dehlin [00:18:08] In June 2006, when Clark formally announced that he was gay in a letter sent to family members, my heart sank. Not because of who Clark truly was, but because of the agony that he suffered over the previous six years as he painfully sought out ecclesiastical and church approved professional counseling while trying to reconcile his identity with everything he had ever been taught. As a lifelong, devoted church member, I recall a particularly poignant and heartfelt portion of this letter which he has permitted me to share.

John Dehlin [00:18:44] It has taken me 30 years to finally make such a formal declaration. Those words mark the beginning of a long and difficult process of how those in my life will reconcile the fact that I am a homosexual. I wish I could deny that I am gay. I would give everything I have to make such an admission be untrue. I am now classified negatively by the world, condemned by society, and denigrated by my church. But I can no longer live a lie. Despite the scorn I will face as an admitted homosexual, I did not choose to be this way. I cannot alter my creation.

John Dehlin [00:19:23] As a brother, I felt ashamed that I had not been the kind of confidant that Clark could have trusted. During these forlorn years of pain and anguish. I am saddened that he had to endure his suffering in solitude and silence.

John Dehlin [00:19:37] While he has since assured me during this time he was incapable of admitting the inevitable to himself, much less to others, I remain troubled that my own brother fought his demons without the loving support of family. I am not ashamed of my brother being a gay man. Clark has always been a wonderful brother to me. And while our interests and personalities differ in many ways, supporting my brother as he comes to terms with who he is and what ultimately makes him happy has been a bonding experience that has most certainly drawn us closer together.

John Dehlin [00:20:10] Ironically, his recent revelation has been the foundation upon which we are building a significantly stronger brotherly relationship. For many years, Clark and I have been unable to connect. Ours was a primarily perfunctory relationship, but one that did not require significant commitments of time, energy, or emotion. For many of those years, I sensed that something was gnawing at Clark. Something that made him feel uneasy and occasionally hostile toward the church. Something that caused him to distance himself from family and church.

John Dehlin [00:20:46] Something that made him seem almost unreachable. I knew an internal struggle was brewing within his soul, but I was not entirely certain of the source of his grief. Though I had some inkling. For most people that knew and grew up with Clark in the church, I am certain that this disclosure will come as quite a surprise to them.

John Dehlin [00:21:06] While I do not feel it appropriate, nor do I feel qualified to delve into a comprehensive psychosexual analysis of Clark's past, I will say very generally that I was not surprised to learn of Clark's same gender attraction. I've considered the possibility for many years. Not so much from the information he has shared in the past, but more from the information he has not shared.

John Dehlin [00:21:28] I am convinced more than ever that Clark did not consciously choose his homosexuality any more than I chose my heterosexuality today. Clark knows that I love him for who he is, not in spite of who he is. Our differences have been the bonding ingredient for our strengthening relationship, one which I hope will continue to flourish throughout the eternities.

John Dehlin [00:21:50] I am grateful that we are growing closer together as brothers, and my greatest wish for him is to find happiness and joy in this life, even if it takes him away from the church. Though selfishly, I hope that he can find a way to stay and partake of all the goodness that exists in the church. The Church needs strong individuals like Clark.

John Dehlin [00:22:09] While I am no scientist, I can say without reservation that Based on over 30 years of personal observation and interaction with Clark, he and I simply possess different genetic wiring. There is no repressed childhood, no absent fatherly figure, or none of the other damaging aspects of childhood traditionally associated with homosexuality. I also know that Clark's commitment to the church, both before and after his mission, would obviate any chance of his choosing this orientation, given the very real significant stigma associated with same sex attraction in the church and in much of society.

John Dehlin [00:22:45] I have mixed emotions when I read the latest church attempt to explain its view on same gender attraction entitled God Loveth His Children. I also read Jeffrey Holland's article Helping those who Struggle with Same Gender Attraction in the October End Sign.

John Dehlin [00:23:00] Finally, I contrasted these more recent church statements with those expressed by Dallin Oaks in 1996 in an article entitled Same Gender Attraction. On one hand, the Church has clearly distanced itself from previous positions of homosexuality not being a condition but rather being a complex set of thoughts, feelings, or behaviors.

John Dehlin [00:23:22] While the difference may seem nuanced, the Church seems more open to accepting same sex attraction as a genetic condition into which somebody is born. Put another way, the Church more willingly concedes that there are gay members of the church whose feelings are very real and very strong, and that such feelings can naturally stem from genetic code. Another subtle shift seems to be the church's de emphasis of homoerotic thoughts as sinful, choosing to concentrate squarely on homosexual behavior instead.

John Dehlin [00:23:55] Finally, the Church appears less eager to exact church discipline on those homosexuals who continue their church membership without maintaining celibacy. In short, the Church has made strides in softening their approach to discussing same sex gender attraction in that it uses less strident verbiage. It concedes that such feelings can be inborn and therefore natural and real, and it admits that there is much we do not know about the hows and whys of somebody being born homosexual Having said all this, the Church has very clearly maintained its stance about the behavior it expects from its gay members.

John Dehlin [00:24:33] The approach to addressing same sex attraction has softened while its doctrine remains unchanged. And in stark contrast to its newly professed ignorance as to why people are born homosexual here on earth, the Church continues to eliminate the possibility of its existence in both the premortal and postmortal spheres.

John Dehlin [00:24:53] Unfortunately for many gay church members, such exclusion makes it difficult for them to maintain a place among the fold because their very being or identity does not figure into premortal or post mortal plans. Not surprisingly, many of them pursue paths of happiness outside the church.

John Dehlin [00:25:13] Consider some of the descriptors of homosexuality in the Church's most recent publication God Loveth His Children as we follow Heavenly Father's plan, our bodies, feelings, and desires will be perfected in the next life so that every one of God's children may find joy in a family consisting of a husband, wife, and children.

John Dehlin [00:25:34] Base your decisions on eternal principles rather than on earthly challenges or desires. The desire for physical gratification does not authorize a more immorality by anyone. If we fill our lives with the spiritual nourishment God has provided, we can more easily gain control over inclinations and become masters of ourselves.

John Dehlin [00:25:59] Do not blame anyone for problems not fully understood in this life. The Church's message seems to be that homosexuality is an earthly affliction or problem that has no place in the next life, but that God will make such individuals whole.

John Dehlin [00:26:14] In the meantime, stay true to the principles of the Church and trust that God will make everything right eventually. While not trying to give rationale to gay members thinking of leaving the church if I were in their shoes, this would be a very difficult pill for me to swallow on so many fronts. To add insult to injury, the article suggests that physical gratification is a core driver of homosexual behavior.

John Dehlin [00:26:36] When I think of my own heterosexuality, I, like many of you, don't view relationships in marriage through a lens of physical gratification. Rather, pursuing and finding a loving and committed relationship was all about aspiring for an ideal that would bring greater joy and meaning to life.

John Dehlin [00:26:54] While physical intimacy is a natural extension of loving relationships, most gay individuals I know seek and desire loving relationships in the same way that most of us do, where physical gratification is not the main driving force. So as for where I stand on how homosexuality fits or doesn't fit into the Church's eternal plan, I honestly don't know.

John Dehlin [00:27:17] I suppose I'll have a more processed answer in a few more years once I take more time to consider the possibilities. I know the church's view of eternity, but I also know that there is much about the hereafter that has never been revealed.

John Dehlin [00:27:31] So for now what I can say is that I believe in and I am omnipotent God who loves all of his children and knows all things related to this issue. And I know that he loves Clark very much and is proud of the life that Clark is leading. I, like Clark, anxiously look forward to learning more of his will concerning this issue and the next life as church members, we can be more loving and tolerant of those who are different from us.

John Dehlin [00:27:58] I am heartened to hear church leaders castigate its members for failing to love, acceptance and fellowship those who are different from the mainstream. In his October Ensign article entitled Helping those who Struggle with Same Gender Attraction, Jeffrey Holland states that when our actions and words discourage someone from taking full advantage of church membership, we fail them and the Lord.

John Dehlin [00:28:23] The church is made stronger as we include every member and strengthen one another in service and love. To this I add my unequivocal voice of agreement and my hope that we can all be more open and loving to members of the church from all walks of life. Thank you.

Audience Discussion on Being Gay in the Mormon Church

Part 3 of 3 · Ep. 87

John Dehlin [00:00:17] A lot of Mormons, whether gay or not, struggle with the notion of how to be in the church even if they don't subscribe to all the even if they don't subscribe to the letter of the law. Wondering how you define yourself as whether or not you feel like you have a definite of yourself as a church member. You know, do you feel like you're the reformed Jewish version of a Mormon?

Guest [00:00:48] Both mics

Guest 2 [00:00:51] okay, so your first question about being at byu. I think my time at BYU was spent was probably the quietest period for me and that that was the period where I was going through, actually went through two years of counseling commonly referred

Guest [00:01:10] to as the reparative therapy.

Guest 2 [00:01:13] So I didn't really affiliate at all with I think, what is deemed as

Guest [00:01:19] the underground group at byu.

Guest 2 [00:01:23] It was something that kind of scared me at the time. I think I was still at the initial stages of coming to terms with it. So to me it was still kind

Guest [00:01:30] of the danger zone.

Guest 2 [00:01:33] Looking back, I think I probably would have found value from the friendships or the associations just from being able to have people to relate to and people to relate to me. So that's probably one regret I had was not being able to have people to reach out to and have people reach out to me. Your second question of how I would define myself in relation to the church. Good question. I don't know if I could clearly define that.

Guest [00:02:02] I think

Guest 2 [00:02:05] a lot of the beliefs that I've had about the gospel and that I've been taught in the church, I still retain. I still hold fast to those, I think the basic tenets of Christianity. There's no question how I feel about those. I guess some of the more complex doctrines that might contradict my orientation or might contradict other issues. I guess I'm a little more open to not so much black and white. From my viewpoint. I think what's brought me peace is to rely on what did Christ teach in the four Gospels? What do we learn from the Book of Mormon? We learn about the basic tenets of Christianity and how to love others and love our neighbors and love God. And I think that's where I feel

Guest [00:02:57] pretty resolute and clear on.

Guest 3 [00:03:12] I don't know if any of you would know this, but I'm wildly interested in interested in the church's position on middle gendered persons, that is to say people who are biologically both male and female. I have not, I've searched the website and I haven't found any information on how the church deals with that or like marriage of middle gendered people.

Ron Schow [00:03:42] I might be able to give some information on that. This particular pamphlet that we produced and was sold by Deseret Book suggests that there is a scale from totally heterosexual to totally homosexual, that there are bisexual people in the middle. And that was produced and approved by Deseret Book and sold there for a time. And we know that this was available and that it might have been considered in terms of God loveth his children. So there is nothing. I'll come back to your question, but let me just finish saying this. There is nothing in any of these statements, these three statements that alludes to bisexuality. Now, did I miss your question in some way?

Guest 3 [00:04:49] More specifically, middle gender, physically male and female at the same time, not attracted to both male and females.

Ron Schow [00:05:01] I would not be an expert on that subject. Maybe someone else is.

Guest [00:05:06] I think my observation is that's

Ron Schow [00:05:12] that's

Guest [00:05:12] the next stage of complexity beyond homosexuality. And I think the church has not really created a definitive stance on the origins and then the future of a homosexual. So I think someone who is transgendered or more I think it's even more vague from the church's standpoint.

Guest 2 [00:05:32] And I think it's, you know, 10

Guest [00:05:34] more curve balls that they've got to juggle with that one.

Guest 4 [00:05:37] In the early 90s, President Packer instructed stake presidents at regional training that in cases of gender ambiguity that the family should pray about it. And whether assigning priesthood or marriage was essentially a choice of the family through prayerful consideration.

Guest 5 [00:06:08] Just a few comments. One, I'm extremely proud of my nephews for being here today and how they've expressed themselves and what they've said. Second, I think there's, there's, we didn't talk about it, but I think there are people who successfully who have same gender attraction who are able to negotiate marriage and make it work. And that's used often, I think, to show that 3D everybody can change, which I don't think is true. But I'm aware of at least a few cases where people who have that and have made the marriage work, whether they will forever, I don't know. We started waiting for the other shoe to drop.

Guest 3 [00:07:01] Third,

Guest 5 [00:07:04] as far as the church position, I'm letting same gender of people live out a lifestyle which would allow them to have the kind of personal relationships that heterosexuals are able to have. I'm one of two stake presidents who I know made the statement that they, I've heard them say that they're aware in their stakes there are same gender people living together and they're not going to do anything about it. They don't know. They don't know the details of what the relationships are.

Guest 5 [00:07:37] As long as people are living the gospel and seem to be doing fine and in what appears to be a monogamous relationship of some sort, that, that they're not going to take any church action about it. Last thing at Sunstone, a year ago in August, there was someone who came out from Washington, D.C. i don't remember his name, but he talked about he and his partner.

Guest 5 [00:08:01] He's a member of the church. I don't know if his partner was or not, but they'd gone to Canada and been married. And when they came back from Canada, they came into a ward that essentially had a reception for them and welcomed them to them and been treating them as loving members of the church ever since that time. That may have changed.

Guest 5 [00:08:21] He said as far as he knew, his bishop and his stake president were fully aware of it. And I've done nothing about it. Those are just observations.

Ron Schow [00:08:38] I would like to make a response to that before we go to the next question, and that is with reference, Toby, to the comment about what I would call a mixed orientation marriage and the fact that some of those exist within the church. And I believe that as part of these three new statements that the Brethren have gone further in trying to

Guest 2 [00:09:08] deal

Ron Schow [00:09:09] with that in a more definitive way. And I actually see five or six elements that people might consider if they want to follow church direction on this. And it's in what Elder Oaks says in his 2006 interview, which is on the church website.

Ron Schow [00:09:33] Elder Oaks goes on to say this to me. That means he quotes President Hinckley who said people should not be married as a therapeutic step. They should be past that, any behavior that they would be involved in, and so on. But then Elder Oaks says this to me, that means that we are not going to stand still to put at risk daughters of God who would enter into such marriages under false pretenses or under a cloud unknown to them.

Ron Schow [00:10:07] Persons who have this kind of challenges that they cannot control could not enter marriage in good faith. On the other hand, persons who have cleansed themselves of any transgression and who have shown their ability to deal with these feelings or inclinations and put them in the background and feel a great attraction for a daughter of God and therefore desire to enter marriage and have children and enjoy the blessings of eternity, that's a situation when marriage would be appropriate.

Ron Schow [00:10:37] So I would summarize that this way. It seems to me that the Brethren have achieved a Good balance here. Those who are bisexual may do okay in marriage and should not be told they cannot marry. It may even be difficult for a young unmarried person with no sexual experience to know just what intensity or level of same gender attraction might be present.

Ron Schow [00:11:00] Elder oaks therefore suggests one disclosure to the intended spouse. 2. An ability to control behavior. 3. Cleansing from any transgression. 4. Being able to put the feelings in the background and have a great opposite gender attraction, which to me suggests some level of bisexuality.

Ron Schow [00:11:21] So you can't put the feelings in the background if you're a six on the Kinsey scale, which Clark could probably identify with anyway. And 5. A desire for marriage. So it seems to me they're saying if you're going to consider a mixed orientation marriage or the person has some degree of same gender attraction, it ought to be evaluated according to at least five criteria. Next question.

Guest 6 [00:11:55] Given that, I guess it sounds like you're still processing to a certain degree where you sort of fit in with the church. This question might be a little specific, but given the importance to most members of the church that they place on the temple and the teachings that go on in the temple, I was curious to know what thoughts or feelings you had specifically related to the temple and how you may or may not participate or fit in with that kind of thing.

Guest 2 [00:12:26] Great question. I think I talked earlier a little bit about the questions that I haven't found resolution to or haven't found answers to. And I think the temple and what we learn in the temple and what's taught in the temple is one dynamic that I probably haven't received much direction on, I think with relation to the temple. I think when I first started coming to terms with this, I went overboard and probably went a lot.

Guest [00:12:53] I did go a lot.

Guest 2 [00:12:55] It got to the point where it got to be very, very frustrating because I think that the things and the doctrines you're taught in the temple are very contradictory if you don't have any intent to marry the opposite sex and go through eternity. So that's something that I've had to take a step away from in order to, I guess have a little distance

Guest [00:13:19] and have a little more peace and take a step back.

Ron Schow [00:13:23] Do we have time for one more question? John, any other question, please?

Guest 7 [00:13:29] Thank you. Thanks, Clark. I just want to say that was a gutsy speech and I certainly salute the courage that that took. I am curious though. You seem to sort of hold tenants that are somewhat unique to Mormonism. Like you mentioned, pre existence and a celestial kingdom and some of these things. That you seem to believe in that are unique to Mormonism, and yet you've disregarded other things. And I'm wondering if you can just briefly describe maybe your criteria for what you're holding onto and what you're discarding.

Guest [00:14:04] I think it's a continual learning process. I think you're right to the extent of there's things I believe and there's things that I hold to that contradict or not contradict. I think it's just a lifelong process of learning.

Guest 2 [00:14:19] And really what I go by is

Guest [00:14:21] what I feel like what God is trying to help me understand and trying to help me realize for my life.

Guest 2 [00:14:29] I think the one thing that I've

Guest [00:14:32] strongly concluded is that every individual's got to figure out their own plan in life and what makes them happy and run with it. And I think that that should be done in coordination with one's creator, and whether that is with what we consider our Christian God or whether it's someone in another religion. I think it's important to always seek inspiration from one's creator. So that's just a process that I think I'll go through the rest of my life.

Ron Schow [00:15:14] Dan, you're very much excellent.

Guest 2 [00:15:16] Thanks.

Guest 6 [00:15:19] Wow.

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