Introducing Kimball and His BYU Experience

John Dehlin [00:00:01] Tell me your name.

Kimball Sanders [00:00:02] My name is Kimble Sanders.

John Dehlin [00:00:04] Where are you from?

Kimball Sanders [00:00:05] I'm from Salt Lake City, Utah. I was born in Minnesota.

John Dehlin [00:00:09] Minnesota?

Kimball Sanders [00:00:10] Yeah, Minnesota.

John Dehlin [00:00:13] What are you doing now?

Kimball Sanders [00:00:14] I'm going to school at byu. My major is Ancient Near Eastern Studies with the New Testament emphasis.

John Dehlin [00:00:21] Ancient Near Eastern Studies?

Kimball Sanders [00:00:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:00:23] What do you want to do with that?

Kimball Sanders [00:00:25] I want to be a professor eventually, but I might do something with psychology like, I don't know, either a double minor or maybe, I mean a double major or something along those lines. So we'll see.

John Dehlin [00:00:38] Fun. How's your BYU experience?

Kimball Sanders [00:00:42] It's been pretty good so far. I've only been. I went to a semester before my mission and then a semester after, and so I haven't really felt like as much a part of the BYU semester, but I feel like I'm starting to get more settled and more at home here, so I'm locking it pretty well. Where'd you serve in Texas? San Antonio. Oh, yes.

John Dehlin [00:01:04] Go Spurs.

Kimball Sanders [00:01:04] Go Spurs. Go ut.

Faith Journey, Doubts, and What He Loves About the Church

John Dehlin [00:01:08] So talk a bit about your journey within Mormonism. Just. I know it's a really broad topic, but, you know, narrow it to sort of characterizing what your ascent or descent or plateau has been and any unique paths that you've taken and how that's made you feel or how you've experienced those tributaries or diversions or whatever.

Kimball Sanders [00:01:34] Sure. I've always had, like, a really strong longing inside to know and to comprehend God. It's something that is. It motivates basically everything I do. That's all I think about pretty much. And that's how I've been probably since I was about 14 or so. I think that's when I read the Book of Mormon for the first time. And.

Kimball Sanders [00:02:05] I felt very, very strong emotions when I read it. And. And I felt like what I was reading was true and good. And I don't know if this is a problem, but I guess the other side of me is that I'm also extremely analytical, and I feel like it's really important to my soul, as well as knowing and comprehending God and understanding what he's about. I also feel like it's really important for me to be honest with myself about my conclusions. I feel like I feel a strong need to question, to ponder conclusions I've come to and make sure that they're correct and that they're not either hypocritical or that I don't hold a double standard or those sorts of things.

Kimball Sanders [00:03:05] And so really, my path has been one that's had a lot of confusion I really struggled a lot of times to try to reconcile what I feel inside with what the church teaches. But at the same time I also

John Dehlin [00:03:26] feel

Kimball Sanders [00:03:29] an intimate connection with the church and with the idea of a God established institution. I feel like I sort of need that. And so it's been this feeling of kind of like conflicting sides within me probably most of my life, again since I was about 14 and I guess I'm here now.

John Dehlin [00:03:57] What were some of the main sources of conflict, the things that you struggled with? Probably

Kimball Sanders [00:04:05] there are lots of things, I think a lot of times answers that maybe more typical LDS people would give never really seemed to cut it for me. But I guess, I guess everything ultimately would come back to the atonement.

Kimball Sanders [00:04:25] I. I believe emphatically in grace. I believe in it more than almost any other Mormon I feel like I've ever met. And it's always really troubled me when I feel like I have to somehow earn or I guess placate God or something like that. I feel like God by nature is merciful, is kind of is condescending, not in the negative connotation, but.

Kimball Sanders [00:04:57] And I don't feel like anything I can do on my part will save me. And I feel like my obedience ought to be born out of a love relationship that I create with him out of gratitude for the gifts he's already given to me.

Kimball Sanders [00:05:15] I feel like everything that I have is a gift from God. And I feel like that really clashes with a lot of Mormons. Like I was told on my mission when I talked to one of my companions that the doctrine of grace was an abomination, which I thought was rather interesting. And I just don't, I don't like hearing all the time just talk about this necessity to keep all the commandments all the time and to be perfect and those sorts of things.

Kimball Sanders [00:05:53] I feel like it's not about that. I feel like it's about obtaining a relationship with Christ. I also have issues with the authority. I tend to feel like personal revelation trumps organizational revelation. And I feel like it's really important for people to follow what they morally and ethically feel is right inside.

Kimball Sanders [00:06:23] Revelation has been a big issue. I've tried to understand what it means to receive revelation, how I know something, whether the feelings I received are legitimate, and how to remain open while staying firm, I guess, with what I believe.

Kimball Sanders [00:06:46] Yeah, there are lots and lots of things, but I feel like they're all really interconnected and it's hard for me to say all of them.

John Dehlin [00:06:54] So what are the things you love about the church?

Kimball Sanders [00:07:09] Honestly, not that many things. I feel like. I feel like it has a potential to be. To be excellent. I feel like the idea of congregating and discussing faith and discussing important things that are important to our souls has the potential to be amazing. But it's not very often that I feel like I get that when I go to church. I feel as though a lot of times the discussions aren't based upon people's yearning or longing for truth or for understanding of the infinite. And it's kind of empty. And I feel like it's very dogmatic, and I don't think that's what church was intended to do. I love the idea of a church, but sometimes I feel like I don't get that at church.

John Dehlin [00:08:19] So what outlets have you had to help you work through this and find a constructive reconciliation or resolution of the things you've been struggling with? You obviously aren't going to Sunday school and expressing these concerns. Have you been able to find an outlet?

Kimball Sanders [00:08:43] There are definitely people that I can talk to. There are people that I feel really comfortable sharing my feelings with, but there. There aren't very many. I've been able to talk to my sister and some close friends, but for the most part, I feel like when I bring things up, whatever it is, I feel like it's met with understandably, some fear and frustration. People say they're. They're worried about me a lot of times because of what I think and sometimes how I act.

Kimball Sanders [00:09:24] And so for the most part, I just kind of keep quiet on those issues and talk to the people that I know won't be offended or won't be hurt by what I say. I don't want to tear down other people's faith, but at the same time, I want to be able to have dialogue with people where they're not, where they're not afraid, and where we can both share openly and honestly what we feel about things.

John Dehlin [00:09:53] And your opportunities for that you feel are plentiful or pretty scarce?

Kimball Sanders [00:09:57] Pretty scarce.

John Dehlin [00:09:59] Are there friends or types of people that you experience who you see are also struggling, feeling alienated, ostracized, like outcasts that you sympathize with? Any groups or buckets or types, do you see that there's a lot of pain out there, or do you feel like most people are pretty at peace and you're sort of unique in some of the things you're feeling and struggling with?

Kimball Sanders [00:10:29] I feel like there's a larger group probably than you might originally think. I definitely think we're in the minority. But I have a lot of friends. I have family members who have really, really struggled with questions of faith and of certain church practices or beliefs or doctrine.

Kimball Sanders [00:10:50] I feel like. I feel like I can relate to them, and I feel like I tend to relate with people who are. Who have either done things that are viewed as wrong in the church or committed serious sin, at least as it's viewed in the church, because I feel like within them is a longing for, whether it's reconciliation or truth, just a humility and just a desire that I feel like is lacking. A lot of times in maybe more mainstream people. I feel like a lot of times they have everything figured out and they know exactly where they're going. But I feel like the people who are, I guess, as the scriptures say, poor in spirit or who are really hurting most have the greatest potential ultimately to understand God and to appreciate God. And that's what I yearn for. That's what I want.

John Dehlin [00:11:55] Do you have any role models or peers or mentors who you feel have been through what you've been through, but come out the other end still very excited or happy or faithful or positive within their Mormon experience? People who give you hope that you might be able to find a similar.

Kimball Sanders [00:12:19] Yeah. Would you like specific names or do you just want me to.

John Dehlin [00:12:24] Is there anyone that maybe some of the listeners would have heard of? Or are these just personal family, friends or these figureheads in the community? I mean, whoever you're comfortable talking about.

Kimball Sanders [00:12:37] One person that I feel is faithful and has a strong testimony that. But is also very, very methodical in what he thinks and very consistent with the way he judges things is my former Book of Mormon professor. His name is Thomas Griffith.

Kimball Sanders [00:13:04] And he taught me to, first off, to love Christ and to. To love grace and to expect it and appreciate it. And then also he taught me how to. He emphasized very strong thinking. He didn't ever downplay thought questioning, just almost an endless questioning of things.

Kimball Sanders [00:13:39] But I think that he escaped cynicism when he did that. He managed to question without being cynical. He managed to question with a sincere desire for an answer instead of just trying to be clever and trying to find flaws or faults in things. He questioned because he yearned for knowledge and for truth. And I think that's the reason why he was able to arrive at answers without letting him. Without it causing him to become calloused or hardened. And so he's someone that I really look up to, and I've been able to keep in contact with and never feel weird about Asking questions, too.

Hope, Vision for the Church, and Final Reflections

John Dehlin [00:14:24] Do you have a hope for yourself that you're going to find a place of joy and happiness and reconciliation on the other side of this faith journey within Mormonism?

Kimball Sanders [00:14:37] I do. I don't know necessarily if I. I don't know if I necessarily define Mormonism, maybe in the same way some people do. I don't know that I'll necessarily have a lot of similar views to people, but the way I believe that the church is intended to be, yes, I find myself eventually being reconciled and being able to remain, I suppose, within the church. But I would hope at the same time that my longing for truth and my desire for that would, If I found something more fulfilling and satisfying, I would have the courage to follow that, even if it means perhaps leaving the church or going in a different direction. But I do feel like, while I feel like my maybe questioning soul won't ever stop questioning, I do feel like I'll be able to reach a state where I can be okay with where I am and happy about the place I'm in.

John Dehlin [00:16:00] Do you. Do you feel like truth seeking is discouraged in the church?

Kimball Sanders [00:16:07] Yeah, that's one of the things that's frustrating is I've always found it somewhat ironic that we're taught about personal revelation and seeking seeking answers, but at the same time we're told, but if it contradicts or goes against what the church teaches, then your revelation is wrong. And so I don't think it's necessarily discouraged to look for answers or to seek truth. I think sometimes it's manipulated to where you're expected to come to the same truth that everybody else has come to. And so a lot of times you ask already have determined, having determined, well, the church is obviously true. So I'm asking kind of. But if I get anything other than, yeah, this is true, then I'm wrong.

Kimball Sanders [00:16:57] I found that really hard in seeking answers or seeking revelation because I have felt like, I've said I've had tremendous spiritual experiences inside the church. I've had great experiences with prayer, with reading the Bible, the Book of Mormon.

Kimball Sanders [00:17:15] But at the same time, I also feel those same feelings for things that are perhaps not condoned or accepted in the church. And that's confusing to me and hard because I'm like, well, what does that say about my other answers I've received or about the way that I've come to other truths in my life? What does that mean?

Kimball Sanders [00:17:39] There are lots of different things in my heart. I don't feel like homosexuality is wrong. I don't feel like excommunication should ever occur if people desire to stay. Those things feel right. It feels right to me. And lots of other different things. Those are just some examples. They feel right, they feel compassionate, they feel good, but they're against what the church teaches. And I don't know exactly how that would be reconciled.

John Dehlin [00:18:15] You seem to have a vision in your mind of how the church should be or your vision for what it could be. Just sort of, to conclude, paint that picture of the Gospel or the church as you see God or Joseph Smith or whoever as having intended it to be.

Kimball Sanders [00:18:35] I see the church as a place of healing. I see the church as a place where Jesus is preached not dogmatically, but as a source of reconciling both with ourselves and with those around us and with God. I see people being taught that they can be forgiven, that their lives can have purpose and meaning. I feel like it can be a place of believers in the healing power of Christ to come together and to talk, even if their views don't necessarily match with ours, but to come together and to logically and in depth. Never beating around things, but to really attack questions that people have and try to come to resolution, try to help people along in their faith, regardless of where they are, and to never create a feeling of ostracism because their beliefs don't match your own.

Kimball Sanders [00:19:37] I feel like that is what Jesus did and what he would do now. And I just think ultimately the church is designed, I think the priesthood was restored to make the atonement effective, to allow people through priesthood ordinances and other sorts of things, to formally accept his gift of forgiveness and reconciliation. And I feel like that is what should be preached from the pulpit rather than, don't smoke, don't drink, don't have sex.

John Dehlin [00:20:10] Any other final things you wanted to share that you came thinking? Have you had any exposure to sunstone or dialogue at all?

Kimball Sanders [00:20:16] Very, very, very limited. I've only read one article from it, but I think the concept or the idea behind it is fantastic. I love the idea of people being able to share what their thoughts are, to be honest about what they feel, to have dialogue about it with other people, rather than just writing the same articles that are written all the time. The idea of sunstone, I think, is great.

John Dehlin [00:20:48] Which article did you read?

Kimball Sanders [00:20:49] I read the one. It was, let's see, the shepherding one. It was about, I think, gays in the church or something along those lines. Does that ring a bell?

John Dehlin [00:21:02] Okay. Did you like it? What did you think?

Kimball Sanders [00:21:05] Okay, I did like it. Now the embarrassing part, I only read portions of it so I can't comment too much. But I tend to not love like a contentious spirit. I don't like in any, in any way tearing things down, but I do like a very in depth look at things and I like people to be able to say honestly how they feel and so. But I also respect people if they feel like they have real issues to be able to have the right to criticize if they feel so inclined. But yeah, I love it. I think it's great.

John Dehlin [00:21:48] You have two minutes. Any final thing that you came thinking you might want to share or anything that you were hoping?

Kimball Sanders [00:21:57] Do you have anything maybe just how you feel about missionary, the missionary program? I don't know why I want to know that the missionary program. Can you say what you want to say if it's more relevant? No, I don't have anything more to say. I'll just, I'll go ahead and answer that. I think that I feel again like a lot of times what's stressed in the mission isn't ultimately what brings joy and it's not ultimately what the church in my mind is about or what the scriptures teach.

Kimball Sanders [00:22:36] I feel like missionary work again should be the same thing. I talked about the ideal church being going and proclaiming Christ and repentance and the salvation he purchased. And I don't feel like there needs to be as much emphasis on the commandments and as stringent set rules for who can enter and who can be baptized. I feel like if people desire to be cleansed than they should be able to be.

Kimball Sanders [00:23:06] I don't particularly like having these lists of requirements they need to fulfill before that occurs. I don't like the dogmatism. I don't like the bashing that goes on about other religions. I feel like, I feel in some ways like it's good for people to go when they do.

Kimball Sanders [00:23:35] I think it's really pivotal in their lives. But I also think sometimes 19 year olds can be really immature and don't really know the doctrine very well. And so sometimes that causes a problem. But. Overall I think the idea of proselytizing and going and sharing something that you feel is important is great.

Kimball Sanders [00:24:01] And I think that we should do it more often. I think it shouldn't be just while we're on our missions. But again, if I could change something or maybe do things differently, I would emphasize grace and redemption more.

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