Introducing David and His Mormon Identity

Guest [00:00:00] Tell us your name.

David Lassetter [00:00:01] David Lassiter.

Guest [00:00:04] Where are you from?

David Lassetter [00:00:05] I'm from all over the place. Well, I like to think of them from all over the place because I went to a bunch of different schools, but really I've only lived in like three major Canada, Arizona and Utah. So I like to say that I'm from Gilbert, Arizona, but I've spent time in both Orem and Provo, and my parents now live in North Salt Lake, Utah. So that's where I go when I have no place to live.

Guest [00:00:25] What are you doing now?

David Lassetter [00:00:26] I'm going to school at byu. I'm a senior, but that's only credit wise and I may end up sticking around there for a long, long time.

Guest [00:00:33] Sticking around byu?

David Lassetter [00:00:34] Yeah, for just another year or two.

Guest [00:00:38] Doing what?

David Lassetter [00:00:39] I'm majoring in English and I may end up with a second major in philosophy or I may just spend the rest of my time doing prerequisites for a master's in economics.

Guest [00:00:50] Sounds like you want to have more fun.

David Lassetter [00:00:53] That's really not what it's about, actually. Well, I mean, fun in the sense that I enjoy studying, but not fun in the sense that it's parties and playing pinball.

Guest [00:01:05] So if you had to describe what type of Mormon you are, even if you wanted to categorize yourself in some way, what would you say?

David Lassetter [00:01:11] I'm a good one.

Guest [00:01:14] I don't know.

David Lassetter [00:01:16] I don't know all the. I mean, I don't know all the classifications, all the modifications, qualifiers for different kinds of Mormons, what are there?

Guest [00:01:22] Do you see yourself as just normal, mainstream, run of the mill Mormon for your age?

David Lassetter [00:01:28] I think I'm pretty mainstream. I think maybe some of the things that I believe aren't quite as orthodox, but I think that's because I've thought through things pretty hard and there are some things that I just don't see as good explanations for scriptures or just doctrines in general that we believe.

Guest [00:01:51] So what ways are you unorthodox? Give us some examples.

David Lassetter [00:02:02] One of the things that I really love studying is the atonement.

Guest [00:02:07] And

David Lassetter [00:02:09] I've tried to understand it for a long time. It's been one of the most frustrating things for me. And you read talks like Bruce R. McConkie's talk about the creation, the fall and the atonement. I think it's called Three Pillars of Salvation, something like that. Anyway, the notion is that without creation or a fall, there is no need for an atonement. And so studying all of those events, including, and also like the judgment and resurrection and mortal Life in general. And also major fundamental principles of the Gospel. The first principles and ordinances, vapor pens, baptism, gift of the Holy Ghost, things like that. Studying all those things together, I think really influenced the way that I view the Atonement. It was really frustrating for me to try and get an understanding, especially of the Fall. The Fall has always been a big puzzle to me. But I feel like as I've studied the Atonement more, it's. And just kind of trying to take a very analytical look at it and break it down into pieces and say, what are the problems? First of all, what's God's ultimate aim for us? What's his goal for us? And then what are the problems that arise in trying to get us there? And also, I've kind of taken into a synthesis of all this. Sorry, I'm giving a really big background here to get to the unorthodox parts. I feel like I have to put it in context, otherwise it kind of sounds goofy. The long and short of it is that I believe in a sort of a reincarnation, or at least the possibility of reincarnation. Not in the Hindu sense or the Buddhist sense, but just the notion that somebody can die and receive and be resurrected and enter the celestial kingdom and then be incapable of dying anymore. In other words, even if they wanted to die, even if they broke the laws that govern immortality, they couldn't separate body and spirit. That doesn't make sense to me. That's not possible. So in my mind, as long as you're abiding within the conditions of immortality, you will be immortal. But once you step outside those conditions, you are subject to mortality. And that goes along with the concept of laws that govern things always. Anyway, back to how it connects with the atonement. And that is that I believe that Jesus Christ was God in the fullest sense before he came to Earth. That is not to say that I don't believe that Jesus Christ had a father. In other words, like a God, the Father. Or that I don't believe that there are three personages, a presidency of gods or something over the earth like Father, Son and Holy Ghost. I do believe in those things. But what I'm saying is my notion of the atonement requires that. I guess it doesn't really require, but it makes the most sense to me to say that Jesus Christ was God in the fullest sense. He had a glorified, celestial, physical body before he came to Earth. And then he put that body off. And that was part of his great condescension he came to Earth to teach us the laws that govern eternal life and what we need to do to have an eternal happiness and to return to the presence of God and to dwell in the celestial kingdom in Zion as part of a community.

Guest [00:05:43] So is this different from the notion of Jesus once being a man like us, or God once being a man like us? Are you saying. What about that theory that God once was a man? Does that mean Jesus had immortality before he became God and then he became man again?

David Lassetter [00:06:02] I pulled open that possibility. I think it's a strong possibility. And it makes sense to me to say that especially in connection with the fallen, I have to kind of go into these things. And that's why it's kind of confusing sometimes when I don't present it as one grand picture. But, yeah, it makes sense to me to say that God the Father experienced some sort of mortality before he became a God, and that Jesus Christ, probably the same thing, that he also experienced some form of mortality, some probationary period. Whether the previous one was just his first go at mortality or something, or whether it was several down the line, I don't know. And I don't think it's that important that I find out. It's not that crucial to my understanding of the atonement. But it helps me understand the condescension much better to say that he had a body and he was fully God and he came down, participated in mortality, and made a great sacrifice. And that the atonement is not limited to Gethsemane and Golgotha, but is more expensive, more expansive, and includes everything that Christ has ever done in order to teach us both premortally. Part of the creation. Creation, I think, is part of the atonement because it tries to give us physical bodies, which is an addition of glory in and of itself. They're trying to, the gods, try to endow us with glory. And the only way to do that is to follow some laws. One of those laws is being tabernacled or incorporated or incarnated, whatever. And that action in and of itself is part of the atonement. The creation is part of the atonement, providing a place where we can learn to abide by the laws, to learn to walk by faith. I think that's part of the atonement. I think that Christ's attempt to organize us according to a celestial pattern here on the earth, and calling apostles to spread the word and organize a church here and continually call prophets on the earth, I think is part of the atonement. Because he's trying to endow us once again with knowledge which is part of glory, and trying to organize us according to that pattern. And that pattern, I think, involves us acquiring what determined in the Book of Mormon, the bowels of mercy, which is the desire that we have once our hearts are transformed by our knowledge of the atonement, and once we acquire the Spirit which purifies us, the Holy Ghost which comes upon us and is the baptism by fire and purifies our hearts and our desires, we acquire the bowels of mercy, which is our desire to extend mercy toward others, to forgive them. And in that sense, the demands of justice which we have for ourselves and justice that we demand from others, those are overcome by our desire to extend mercy, which is brought about by our understanding of Christ's sacrifice and his condescension and his efforts to teach us and his willingness to go all the way in doing so. Sorry.

Guest [00:09:22] No, it's good. So this theology you developed, what have been your primary sources? Is this just your own thinking, or have you had mentors, or have you done reading that has helped inform your thinking?

Developing a Personal Theology

David Lassetter [00:09:34] I feel like I've done a lot of reading. I couldn't name anyone specifically other than just the Scriptures themselves and Joseph Smith, I think, primarily. But lots of conference talks, lots of what I've read, just generally from apostles and church history, has all contributed to it. An idea here or there. I remember one visit that Elder Bednar actually made just after he was called as an apostle to our mission. I stood up and asked him a question about the Atonement. I don't remember what the question was exactly, but his response was something like, the Atonement is designed to prepare us for the Day of Judgment. That doctrine is expressed in Mosiah 3, I think, verse 10 or something like that very clearly. But it had never been brought to my attention before that way. And I thought that was very helpful because it kind of shifted my perspective a little bit and said, there are. There is this time, the Day of Judgment. Whatever it is that we need to be prepared for, something is going to happen on that day, something very significant, and we need to learn things. There is something that Christ does that is helpful for us. I think that's just one thing. But I think Teaching of the Prophet Joseph Smith was one of my favorite books. I read it twice on my mission, and I still pick it up and just flip through it frequently. I really, really enjoy that. But also just the Book of Mormon, I think, in general, and certain ideas from the Doctrine and Covenants and things that are expressed, not necessarily in an argument form as like premises to a conclusion in talks, but that are clear. And the underlying foundational principle, what is behind what the words of some apostles and prophets sometimes is very clear. The assumptions they make that undergird everything that they're saying.

Guest [00:11:40] So do you. What forums or, you know, how do you find people? It's clear that theology and doctrine are important to you. It's clear that you've probably done a little bit more thinking about this than maybe the average student your age or young person your age. Do you have an association of friends or a group or some means to discuss these types of things?

David Lassetter [00:12:06] You know, I've just kind of had to. I've had to piecemeal it all. I had to take some from here, some from there. I talk to people when I can about different issues my parents had. My dad especially has a very extensive library about church issues. And I just kind of picked through that all growing up. And some things I understood, some things I had no clue about. Why is this even an issue? Why are we even talking about this? Other things, I was like, whoa, that's so interesting. But also just talking to my friends, I mean, I have friends who I can literally talk to about anything. I have other friends who I really can't talk about things. And it really bothers them to even ask questions about. To inquire further into something like faith, to go beyond merely a scriptural definition, something in like, Alma 32, like faith is to hope for things which are not seen, which are true. To try and go beyond the definition, like that is a little too much for them. And they wouldn't enjoy doing it, and they wouldn't like it. And attempting to go deeper into understanding things or asking questions, asking for reasons for things is too much. And for other people, it's like I could make wild accusations about the church, and they just listen and say, okay, well, let's examine that and let's see why that's true or why that's not true. And we go through it rationally and just think hard about it. And I think doing all those things in conjunction with frequent prayers has been part of my community. But I think magazines like Dialogue, I had copies of Dialogue around all the time. I was never really that familiar with Sunstone, but I'd always heard about Sunstone. For some reason, it had a little bit of a stigma, but when I got a hold of articles from there, it just seemed quite normal to me. And I appreciated having some sort of vehicle for discussing those things, for transmitting that information to me.

BYU Religion Classes and Church Orthodoxy

Guest [00:14:17] What's your experience with religion classes at byu?

David Lassetter [00:14:20] Religion classes are a little frustrating for me because I feel in some way that they're. I'm going to say basic, but I don't mean basic in the sense that they discuss foundational doctrines that are very important, like faith repentance, baptism. I have no problem discussing those things. I love discussing those things, but I think that they talk about things in a very dogmatic way. And I would appreciate more of an academic approach, I think, to literature at a. Not to literature, of course to literature. I mean to religion at a university. Just because I think there is a lot to be gained from that perspective that we don't get in Sunday school. And for good reasons, I think we can't get at Sunday school. And there are modes of inquiry that are just not appropriate for some locations but that I would love to have in other places.

Guest [00:15:17] What do you mean by dogmatic? And give us an example or two if you can think of some experiences in a religion class that left you wanting.

David Lassetter [00:15:33] I don't know. I think. Well, I think that anytime someone. The creation, I guess, is a good example. Just because it's such a hot button issue sometimes with people, because it's so bound up with science and philosophy these days where there's a lot of questions about evolution and about geologic history. I guess the age of the earth has been a question around for a long time. I think Elder Talmadge, James E. Talmadge, addressed it quite frequently because he was a geologist. But I think that anytime in a classroom setting where someone just says, just straight out the earth is 6,000 years old, I think is naive or ignorant or just irresponsible because it sets up when it's said, when it's repeated frequently like that. And someone comes across something in a science textbook that says contrary, something very opposite of that, gives a figure like 4.5 billion years. There is a significant discrepancy there. And the person. If there's a negative view of science that's presented frequently in religion, they'll end up saying that's just the book is wrong. It's obviously wrong.

Guest [00:17:09] What's wrong with that?

David Lassetter [00:17:13] I think that we. While I think that the truths of religion and science should harmonize, I don't necessarily think preference should be given and I genuinely believe. I don't think preference should necessarily be given to the science textbook. I also think one should actually go through and not just immediately discount things because they've had it beaten into their head over and over again that The Earth is 6,000 years old. Earth is 6,000 years old, but they won't investigate it for themselves and look at the science behind it and say, is this actually a legitimate way of determining the age of the earth? Can you actually use all these forms of dating that scientists claim are accurate and effective for determining the age of the earth? Is this something that's reasonable for me to believe and then to look at the doctrine too and say, is this actually a doctrine of the church? Is this something that the church actually teaches as truth?

Guest [00:18:12] What's your answer to that?

David Lassetter [00:18:14] I say it's not. I don't think it's.

Guest [00:18:15] It's not doctrine.

David Lassetter [00:18:16] I don't think it's a doctrine that

Guest [00:18:18] the earth is 6,000 years old.

David Lassetter [00:18:20] No.

Guest [00:18:20] No. So how do you reconcile your views with past statements from general authorities who did.

David Lassetter [00:18:30] I think that people love to have facts available to them that they can use to bolster people's faith and that when they hear someone describe in what seems to be a rational way, when they hear someone describe to them evidence for a particular view, like they say, well, God created the earth, and we know that the Bible is true. And the Bible shows, if you trace things back according to the chronology, that then we see that the earth must be 6,000 years old because, well, Adam was this old and Noah was this old and all these prophets were this old. And we know that we can corroborate this historical date with some historical documents in the past. And they love to have the certainty to say, oh, so this must be true. But the doctrine of the church is not that the Bible is flawless. It never has been. To say that I am forced to believe that the chronology of the Bible is correct in determining the age of the earth. First of all, even if the chronology of the Bible is correct, there are other ways of explaining how the age 4.5 billion years can be reconciled with the fact that Adam may have left the garden 6,000 years ago.

Guest [00:19:44] So do you think there's life before the fall?

David Lassetter [00:19:48] It's my opinion that, yeah, there is. But. But I don't think it's necessary for a person to believe that. And I don't think it's that the church requires somebody to believe that it's not true in order for you to have a testimony, in order for you to even to be saved or to continue as a faithful member of the Church of the Holy Ghost with you.

Guest [00:20:09] How do you square evolution with your views on the church and the Bible

David Lassetter [00:20:18] or have You, I mean, I have them different. I think there are lots of different possibilities. I don't have one view that I hold to. I think that some are more likely than others. I like the notion that. There were hominids before Adam because I think it squares well with the fossil record. I don't think it's necessary that Adam have come from an evolution. I think it's possible. I don't think it's necessary. I don't think it's necessary that Adam was formed from the dust of the ground in the mud pie clay figurine that some people set up as some sort of straw man to, to take down people who are against religion and think that religion is very dangerous. I don't think that's necessary. I think it's very possible that Brigham Young's statement that Adam and Eve had a previous mortal existence and came and came to the earth and fell of their own accord and had children that way at some point in the evolution of the earth. I think that it's possible that at some point human evolution had reached a certain point where God could instruct Adam and Eve or whoever he chose and teach them language and preserve their lives for any period of time that he needed to. I just think there are tons and tons of ways to reconcile.

Guest [00:22:00] So you're open, you're open to all those possibilities. What about a global flood?

David Lassetter [00:22:07] I think that there are ways of interpreting that story as well in the Bible. I don't think it's necessary that the Bible be viewed, especially that account, as literal. I think it's also possible that maybe we just flat out don't have the evidence for it and never will. But I don't think that that proves the Bible false. And at the same time I don't think it proves it true or that

Guest [00:22:25] the story is false definitely. So some of these views might be. The openness even might be considered out of the mainstream for the average 20 something within the church. Are you able to talk to people here at BYU comfortably about these views? Do you feel like you have to be guarded? Do you have to be careful who you tell that you're open to evolution? Or do you feel like.

David Lassetter [00:22:46] Well, actually I don't think evolution is as big a deal with students as it is maybe with the general population of the church. I think most students, well, at least most students that I have classes with that I've had science classes with even more especially with people I've had science classes with, I don't think that they have a problem with it. And that's probably because probably most students don't have a class where they study evolution in depth. I actually had a class where we went pretty deep into evolution, but I also had three professors who were quite confident that evolution was a correct principle. And so that may have influenced my belief about it, but also I still feel very open about it, but I really don't have a hard time talking to people about it. And it doesn't seem to be something that's terribly controversial, though. There are students that I run into who just will flat out tell you evolution is the doctrine of the devil.

Guest [00:23:45] So is there any area in your life where you feel in any way out of step or ostracized or marginalized or uncomfortable as you run in Mormon circles? Or do you feel like in a sort of comprehensive way, your views or your attitudes, your perspectives or your thoughts mesh very well with the culture and the population that you interact with here at BYU or in the church more broadly?

David Lassetter [00:24:16] I feel pretty comfortable running in circles, but I do feel like I have to watch myself sometimes. Just because there are people who will be genuinely offended if I were to tell them some of what I believe or try and promote it to them or try and make a case for it. I think that they would be very offended. And so sometimes I do feel uncomfortable. I've had experiences in Sunday school. I actually had one experience one time in Sunday school that kind of made me a little wary about the questions I ask in Sunday school and the points I try and make. We were discussing Section 134 of the Doctrine and Covenants, the section on government. And I think it's verse seven that talks about us allowing other people the privilege of worshiping how they will. And I was just thinking to myself, you know, there's so many. Isn't it ironic that Utah prosecutes polygamists just for practicing polygamy? I mean, Marrying children off is another issue, but I mean, just for practicing polygamy, they prosecute them. I think that's a little ironic given our past, our own reception of persecution for practicing it. And so I just kind of raised my hand and said, what do people think about that? Do people think it's. It's hypocritical for. I mean, should we support prosecutions of polygamists just for practicing polygamy, or should we as citizens, as good citizens, try and try and fight to have them have laws against polygamy repealed? And I had so many people just immediately. It was an immediate reaction, and I realized that. And the reactions that I got, I realized that people were misunderstanding my question. They thought I was saying, shouldn't we practice polygamy? Because their responses were like, well, the prophet has said we shouldn't practice polygamy and that it's outlaw. Are you going against the prophet? And I was struggling to make my point, but then afterwards I just ended up having to apologize to four or five sisters in the class. And I genuinely felt bad that I had created such contention, but it wasn't my intention to do so. And I just have kind of felt a little wary about asking those types of questions and raising things that kind of go with, I guess, sort of a political nature in Sunday school. And so there are times when I wish there was some sort of forum with lots of people that I could openly discuss things with. But generally I just talk about it with friends that I'm comfortable discussing things with and who love to discuss it.

Sympathy for Doubters and Those Leaving the Church

Guest [00:27:19] Are there any groups that you sympathize with from the standpoint of, are there any friends or types of friends you have who you do feel like are marginalized or judged or ostracized in a way that you wish there was maybe more tolerance for?

David Lassetter [00:27:42] I'm very sympathetic for kids with beards. I actually had a beard this last summer. I was working at a boys ranch. Not for troubled teens, for just regular kids. And so I had a beard. But, yeah, I sympathize with people who. Who, for superficial reasons, people look down on them. And I also sympathize with people who are accused of being faithless or apostates because they have a hard time believing something because they haven't been given adequate reasons for it, and they haven't had a fair chance at receiving a good presentation of a principle or doctrine. I'm very sympathetic for them. I'm very sympathetic for people who, for whatever reason, have a hard time with abiding by any of the laws of the church, who struggle with particular sins and are ostracized for it. I mean, I think that people who. Who have been like young people who've had sex or something and forced to get married or have had an abortion or something like that, who are looked down on. I feel awful for them because I just think that there are sins that are a lot worse. I understand why we consider them to be very serious sins, but I just. I hate that some people are so. I mean, they beat themselves up, but then they have the rest of the church beating them up too, for something that they've done, and it drives them away. And I feel awful about that. And I hate that that happens. I mean, just any number of. Any number of things like that. Just anyone who's driven away from the church for whatever reason because they were offended. I mean, I just understand. I feel like I understand those things.

Guest [00:29:45] So do you have some close friends of yours who have left the church?

David Lassetter [00:29:52] Yeah, people that I feel close to that have left the church. I don't have any people like. Well, that's not true either. Yeah, I do.

Guest [00:30:04] If you could list some of the main reasons why some of these people or even people your age are leaving, what would be the main causes?

David Lassetter [00:30:15] I think that the main cause that I've encountered is they had some incorrect understanding of a doctrine. Not unjustifiably so, from what they've been taught. That was their understanding of the doctrine, but in my opinion was an incorrect understanding that they then are able to. They set up the straw man or the strata man is set up for them, and then they're able to easily tear it down or knock it down or something when they maybe learn more about church history than they were taught when they were younger, or they learn

Guest [00:30:53] more about

David Lassetter [00:30:56] some idea in science or history or philosophy that they think easily beats that argument. And I just. I feel bad about that. But I also think that's really dangerous, is that they're not being equipped with the right information.

Attractive Doctrines, Family Faith, and Hopes for the Future

Guest [00:31:14] What are some of the examples of these doctrines or historical understandings that you see as particularly attractive or dangerous, however you want to look at it?

David Lassetter [00:31:24] Well, I think a lot of people have a misunderstanding about the Book of Abraham and how it was produced. I think evolution is one thing. For some reason, there have been so many statements from church leaders saying, well, we don't know about evolution. Let's not say it one way or the other. And I think evolution is one thing that gets people. Women in the priesthood is another thing. Blacks in the priesthood is another thing. Even the existence of God is one thing. Historicity of the Book of Mormon, archaeological claims and things like that. Those are just a couple issues that I can think of. Polygamy, just some basic ones, I guess.

Guest [00:32:16] But you've been able to work through all those. So you're fully aware of those issues, but you've been able to work through them?

David Lassetter [00:32:22] I think that I'm fully aware of them and I feel like I've worked through them.

Guest [00:32:25] And to what do you credit your ability to work through those whereas your friends have not been able to? What was different in your life? Is it just who you are? You're more sophisticated and nuanced, or did you have some influences in your life that made the difference for you? Where these friends just didn't have them

David Lassetter [00:32:44] in their formative years, I think it's really likely that they just didn't have the same. Same influences that I had. I feel like my dad is really open to a lot of these things. And when any of us would have a question about it, we'd ask and he would say, well, we don't know a lot about this or that. And here is one idea that's been presented, one explanation. Here's another explanation. Here's another explanation. There's. There is no real doctrine of the church on that particular issue, or here is a way that I've been able to reconcile it, or here is something that you should read about that. And just the fact that we had lots of material open to us and it was displayed on shelves and just about the church in general, about Joseph Smith, about the Book of Mormon, about the history of the church, it was just always available.

Guest [00:33:37] So having more information was actually more helpful to you than having less. And can you name any influences on your father, sources for materials, or what helped your dad get to where he was? Was it his dad or did he have.

David Lassetter [00:33:53] No, his dad is actually not, for most of his adult life, has not been an active member of the church.

Guest [00:34:01] So what made the difference for your dad?

David Lassetter [00:34:03] I think coming to byu, he had a lot of. He had a lot of positive influence from professors. He also had a lot of. There were a lot of students who he was very close to that shared a lot of the same concerns that he had when things were brought up. They got good explanations. He read a lot of dialogue and I think Sunstone and BYU studies, and there were just forums and discussions about things all the time. So I think those were a lot of his influences. He read a lot and discussed a lot.

Guest [00:34:41] Do you have any hopes for progress in the future? Are there any secret hopes or desires you have for how things might get better? For. I mean, things are good. There are a lot of great things, obviously. Do you ever hope for a change or two here or there or some ways that things might improve? Do you have ideas?

David Lassetter [00:34:59] I don't know. My secret hope is that I just think that there's so many. The educational background of different members of the church is so different that Sunday school and Elders Quorum are not necessarily the place to discuss certain issues because there just isn't time to go into the background of things. And so when you bring up. I don't know, something more speculative or something more controversial. There just isn't. It's just not the right place. There's not the right spirit because people haven't been raised in the same way and they have widely differing views about the doctrines of the church. But I don't know. I think that the church is trying pretty hard to get people educated and is making education a. A focus. And President Hinckley preaches it all the time. Get as much education as you can. I think the Perpetual Education Fund is designed to do that in the third world areas of the church and make educational opportunities more available. And I don't know, maybe one day we'll see a lot more educated members. I would love to see that.

Guest [00:36:23] Last question. Have you ever read Sunstone? Yeah. What do you think about Sunstone?

David Lassetter [00:36:29] Well, I haven't read it. As many issues as, I don't know to have a very informed opinion of it. But the issues that I have read, I've really enjoyed the pieces. I think that they're well researched. I think they're well reasoned. I think that people make rational arguments and I think they're fair. They're especially fair to the church. And I think they approach things from the right perspective and they're very helpful for getting new perspectives on things.

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