Introduction and Guest Welcome

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is March 11, 2022, and we are very, very excited for today's Mormon Stories episode. Every once in a while, I would say at least every few months, probably once a month at this point, an actively serving Mormon missionary either reaches out to me or. Or, you know, someone close to me, or sometimes inexplicably kind of shows up on either the Mormon Stories podcast, Facebook group, or one of the pages, or on Reddit, the ex Mormon Reddit, and kind of just lets the ex Mormon, post Mormon world know that there's. That there's at least one or several Mormon missionaries out there that no longer believe that are following the post Mormon social media pages. And sometimes they even feel trapped or they're like, how do I get out of here? Or most commonly, there's kind of this just dilemma that they present of like, I'm on my mission. I no longer believe I'm following ex Mormon social media, but do I come home or not? How do I deal with my mission president? What will my parents think? So that's. That's a dynamic that's been happening for many, many years, but rarely have we been able to have on Mormon Stories either an actively serving Mormon missionary who no longer believes. And we still haven't had that yet. But what we've wanted to have for some time, especially recently, is someone on Mormon Stories who's recently returned from his or her Mormon mission, who lost their faith while on their mission, and if possible, either listen to Mormon stories as a missionary or read the CES letter as a Mormon missionary, that sort of thing, and can talk about what it's like to. Yeah. Lose your faith as a missionary. So today we are really excited to have with us in studio, Kolby Sorensen. Hey, Kolby. Welcome.

Kolby Sorensen [00:02:04] Hey. I guess I should check off all those boxes for you because I did all of those things while a missionary.

John Dehlin [00:02:11] Yeah. And you've only been home how many months?

Kolby Sorensen [00:02:14] I think around six months. Yeah, six or seven at this point.

John Dehlin [00:02:18] So we're in 2022. We're in March of 2022. And you got home from your Mormon mission When?

Kolby Sorensen [00:02:26] August or September 2021.

John Dehlin [00:02:29] Yeah. And I should mention that it's Gerardo that was kind of the producer for this episode. So we're lucky to have Gerardo sitting in care's chair. Hey, Gerardo. Hey, John. How's it going?

Gerardo Sumano [00:02:39] Going good.

John Dehlin [00:02:40] Welcome. Thanks for making this happen.

Gerardo Sumano [00:02:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:43] And you thought this was really interesting, wasn't Kolby, like, writing on one of the boards as he's on a train to his mission home or something like that. What was it?

Gerardo Sumano [00:02:53] Yeah, so he made a post on the Mormon Stories community Facebook group, just telling briefly his story that he had lost his faith on the mission. Sorry. On the church. And that he was coming back from his mission. And so. So I saw the post and were you.

John Dehlin [00:03:11] Were you on a train to the mission home? Is that right?

Kolby Sorensen [00:03:13] Yeah, I was on the Freccia Rosa. It's like the fastest train in Italy. And I was on my way back to the mission home. And when to end your mission. To end my mission?

Gerardo Sumano [00:03:21] Yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [00:03:21] No, I was. It was see you later. I'm heading home at that point. And the video was like, how to tell and talk about your family that you've lost your faith. And, yeah, that's the kind of stuff I needed. So I tuned in, left a comment. Yeah, yeah, I saw it.

Gerardo Sumano [00:03:36] And I messaged him privately and I said, hey, would you like to be on Mormon Stories? And he said, yes. He wrote an outline, but for scheduling issues. And then Kolby got a job that didn't allow him to have a lot of free time, but, well, we finally got him on the podcast, which I'm really excited for.

John Dehlin [00:03:55] Yeah. And I'm partly to blame for the delays, but.

Kolby Sorensen [00:03:58] No, that's my fault as well. I had a trip job that I switched to that became really difficult to get days off. So I'm just happy to be here now, though. It's a long wait.

John Dehlin [00:04:06] Yeah. Yeah. And. And Kolby still lives with his believing Mormon parents. Right, Right. Kolby.

Kolby Sorensen [00:04:11] Yep. Still living in their house, saving up for college.

John Dehlin [00:04:14] Yeah. Yeah. So this is really cool. This is your chance. And we're live streaming this as well on Facebook and on YouTube. We are open to having people call in during the live stream if they want. At the end. Towards the end, if they want to share kind of their experiences losing their faith on their Mormon mission, or if they had children who lost their faith on their Mormon mission, or if they have questions for Kolby at the end. We're open to entertaining that, but this is your chance to ask Kolby questions, like, what was it like to serve during COVID Kind of the zoom MTC kind of experience. What was it? What's it like to lose your faith? What's it like to have social media access? How are freaking missionaries listening to podcasts or getting on Reddit? You know, what's it like to proselyte through Facebook? So these are all the types of things we can cover Today, right, Kolby?

Kolby Sorensen [00:05:07] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:07] Yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [00:05:08] Can't wait.

John Dehlin [00:05:08] Okay. Anything else you want to say, Kolby, before we. Any disclaimers or anything else you want to say before we dive in?

Kolby Sorensen [00:05:18] I guess if my family, if anyone ends up watching this, just know I love you guys a ton. Like, your love and support means everything to me. I know a lot of ways this is how any of you expected things going, but I hope you guys are doing okay. I know that I love you and, like, completely nothing. My views of you have changed.

John Dehlin [00:05:37] And if you had to tell believing members and believing family why you're. Why you're not doing this episode, what your intentions are not, and then what your intentions are, what would you say so that people don't get the wrong idea?

Kolby Sorensen [00:05:52] My intentions definitely aren't to paint the mission experience in a bad way. I just plan to. I want to give an honest take on the mission experience because I think a lot of returned missionaries always tell a very fluff piece on it. And I'm not here to try to spread and make people want to leave the church. I think that the truth is really important. And I know one of the things that helped me a lot was being able to watch other people who went on missions and talk about that section of their life. And that was a lot of comfort for me having knowing that it wasn't. I wasn't alone in that kind of hard experience and those kind of emotions, that I wasn't the only one. And I think that's something that's important for all of us where we just need that as people.

John Dehlin [00:06:38] I love it. I love it. All right, well, what do you want to say about your Mormon story before your mission?

Growing Up in a Devout Utah LDS Family

Kolby Sorensen [00:06:50] There's nothing super unique. Growing up, it was kind of just the typical LDS family. We lived in Utah, lived in Price for a bit, then mostly West Valley is where I grew up. We went to church every Sunday, scripture reading with the family. We tried to do that every night. Family, home, evening doing that. I loved reading the scriptures with my family. I loved being involved in the. The different activities or reading the scriptures. I loved raising my hands like, oh, I want to read the next verse or I'll read it. And I honestly loved learning. I loved going to church. I wasn't one of the kids that didn't like going. I was one of the ones that liked being there and singing Jesus wants me to be a sunbeam, or Jesus wants me for a sunbeam, and just having that enthusiasm to be there and to learn, it was a part of my life. It was yeah, just a big thing.

John Dehlin [00:07:45] So. So how many siblings. Maybe you already said this. How many siblings and. And how devout was your family? How orthodox was your family?

Kolby Sorensen [00:07:54] Three younger brothers, I'd say fairly orthodox. It was that very. Yeah, that straightforward. This is what they said at general conference. This is what the prophets are saying. And so that's exactly what it means. That's what we're doing. I remember before. I can't remember who it was. Eventually, one of them, like, lightened up on caffeine, but for the longest time, like, caffeine soda was not allowed for us to drink at all. And then, I mean, that changed as we got older. It was never like a. Yeah, I don't know how to explain. Like, it wasn't like a huge deal switching. It was just like, we encourage you not to, and we don't think you should. But then once, I think one of the prophets or apostles were, like, more open to it, we started having soda more often out of nowhere.

John Dehlin [00:08:34] That was a landmark moment in your family when you came.

Kolby Sorensen [00:08:36] Big landmark moment. Finally.

John Dehlin [00:08:37] Not coffee and tea, though.

Kolby Sorensen [00:08:38] Not coffee, no. Oh, definitely not coffee and tea. Can't. Can't do that. Those are way too bad for you. So they'll lead you astray.

John Dehlin [00:08:45] But what were you. What did you start drinking?

Kolby Sorensen [00:08:47] Just like, root beer. Mountain Dew.

John Dehlin [00:08:49] Bark's root beer, Right?

Kolby Sorensen [00:08:50] Barks. Root beer, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:51] That's what these get.

Kolby Sorensen [00:08:52] Really.

John Dehlin [00:08:52] You know, that's edgy. Mormon edgy is to drink bark Shoot beer.

Kolby Sorensen [00:08:56] Or when you get the. I don't know, like the ciders that look like wine bottles, you know, like Martinelli's. Yeah, Martinelli.

John Dehlin [00:09:02] They don't have caffeine.

Kolby Sorensen [00:09:03] They know they don't have caffeine. But I remember those who would all just pop those out as like. Oh, like the avoidance of evil.

Gerardo Sumano [00:09:09] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:11] Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [00:09:13] That's. This caffeine thing is kind of interesting. My. My husband had a really similar experience where, like, for. For a while, like, his family was not. Not caffeine, not coke at all. And on his family. And then at some point it just switched. Like. I don't know. He doesn't know exactly what happened in my family because we were in Mexico. I guess things are harder to get there. My parents still don't drink Coke. Oh, because it has caffeine.

John Dehlin [00:09:47] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:09:47] Looks too much like coffee, I guess. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:09:50] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:09:52] And on their missions, they were not allowed to drink coke.

John Dehlin [00:09:56] Yeah. So it's one of those kind of the unwritten order of things. Everyone is living a little Bit different. Everyone kind of lives their personal life a little bit in different places along the private orthodoxy spectrum. So.

Kolby Sorensen [00:10:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:11] Yeah. So yeah. You were the oldest of four.

Kolby Sorensen [00:10:15] Three brothers, Three younger brothers. Yeah, I'm the oldest of four.

John Dehlin [00:10:18] Yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [00:10:19] Yeah, four of us total.

John Dehlin [00:10:20] Okay. And so you would have been like, let's say middle school, high school years. What years would that have been?

Kolby Sorensen [00:10:28] Oh, that's a hard question.

John Dehlin [00:10:30] What year did you graduate from high school?

Kolby Sorensen [00:10:31] I graduated in 2020.

John Dehlin [00:10:33] From high school.

Kolby Sorensen [00:10:34] From high school. 2020, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:36] Okay. Yeah. So you would have been. You would have started high school in. In. In 2016.

Kolby Sorensen [00:10:43] Yeah. 2016, 2017.

John Dehlin [00:10:45] Okay. All right.

Mormon Childhood, Shame, and Sacrament Culture

Gerardo Sumano [00:10:47] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:10:48] So just anything noteworthy about your Mormon childhood or adolescence in terms of faith stuff, belief stuff, social media stuff, law of chastity, word of wisdom stuff? The. We always try and cover shame because that's. We've discovered that to be central to the Mormon faith model, slash business model is making sure people. So anything you want to share about your upbringing?

Kolby Sorensen [00:11:13] Yeah, for sure. A lot of like that middle school, high school, I was still very like, I guess like straight edge Orthodox as well, where it was maybe I swore a bit during like middle school and high school and that was about it, though mostly trying to follow the commandments and shame. I definitely realized, like, looking back at that plays a huge part, especially when it comes to. Yeah. The law of chastity and exploring your own sexuality, like, side of things, all of that. It's very much a. Looking back, you can totally see how much it's a controlling and a shame factor. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:52] So. So did you. What were the. Were there any teachings that were really shame inducing for you? And is there anything you want to talk and you don't have to talk about anything you don't want to talk about?

Kolby Sorensen [00:12:03] No. Yeah, it's. I guess for me personally, there are never any that I think stuck out as shame inducing. Of course I had like the typical. Having sex before marriage is like eating chewed gum off the ground, you know, like the. You don't want a dollar bill that's been torn up and ripped to shreds, like that kind of thing. But for me personally, it was just never. That part never played in more of the. The masturbation shame. And that side of things was what affected me for sure. And just. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:35] Was that. What. Was that a. Something that really made you feel really bad about yourself?

Kolby Sorensen [00:12:43] No, definitely. I remember. I mean, you're a young teenager, you start to explore that. I remember, of course, like not fully understanding, like, oh, this is what masturbation is because it's not really talked about or explained that you're always kind of in church. It's like, don't masturbate. What's that? Oh, we don't really want to talk about it. And so once I figured out like, oh, this is what I'm doing and it's this big wrong thing, I went into my bishop and then started kind

John Dehlin [00:13:10] of around what age?

Kolby Sorensen [00:13:13] Probably like 15 or 16.

John Dehlin [00:13:15] Okay.

Kolby Sorensen [00:13:17] Somewhere in that range. Like it was maybe 14 because I think it was in middle school. But I guess just seeing how looking back at like the shame of it definitely I think plays into the. Making it almost more desirable because it's a bigger deal in your brain because it's. Oh, it's something I'm not supposed to do. It's something I'm not supposed to do. And because of that, it's just, I guess like a bigger deal in your brain and on your mind more and can lead to doing it more, but also just not. Yeah. Feeling shameful for doing something that's just a natural part of your body.

John Dehlin [00:13:52] How does a bishop, how does a Mormon. How did your Mormon bishop kind of counsel you?

Kolby Sorensen [00:13:59] Basically counsel me, like, hey, look, try to avoid these things. You know, don't, don't be alone with the phone and make sure if you're having those thoughts, sing a hymn. I remember like once I was able to take like the sacrament for like a couple weeks and really seeing how that's used is a big thing of shame because it's supposed to be the

John Dehlin [00:14:16] idea he told you not to take the sacrament, correct?

Kolby Sorensen [00:14:18] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:19] As like a punishment.

Kolby Sorensen [00:14:21] Yeah, it's of course it's never worded like that, so you can fully do the repentance process. But I mean, I definitely think it's a punishment. And because not taking the sacrament is something that everybody notices or it was during the time when I could pass a sacrament.

John Dehlin [00:14:34] And can you explain, half of our audience has never been Mormon.

Gerardo Sumano [00:14:38] Right.

John Dehlin [00:14:38] So can you in your own memory and words explain kind of like how the sacrament works for a 14 or 16 year old or 12 year old kid and then how, how what the surrounding context is and then how it would feel for a Mormon youth to be told not to take the sacrament and what that would be like?

Kolby Sorensen [00:15:00] Right, so the sacrament, it's, it's part of the service that you do every week. It's supposed to be like renewing your covenants with God, the promises that you make with him, like baptism. And so you take it every week to sort of renew those and for.

John Dehlin [00:15:11] And it's bread and bread and water.

Kolby Sorensen [00:15:13] Bread and water. Because you can't have wine is against the word of wisdom. It's bad for you. So you would as a. I came out, it's 12 when you start passing. Yeah, you start passing it at that age and it's kind of a big deal because you're in front of everyone. You're supposed to be like, like Christ. You're, you're, I don't know if in the similitude of him is right, but you're, you're doing part of what he would do in spreading that sacrament and that part of the gospel or not part of the gospel, part of those like ordinances. And so it's something where like everyone sees you, you're walking around with that tray. Everyone's eyes are on you, even if they're looking for like you. You notice who's up there and who's not. And so it's kind of a big deal if you're told not to because you've committed some sort of sin. Because whether or not people do notice or not, you always, no matter what, you're going to have that fear of, oh, people are going to notice that I am not up there when I normally would be passing it. And that, oh, someone's going to of course notice that you didn't take it because there's people passing it to you.

John Dehlin [00:16:15] Oh, okay. So normally you would either be passing or as a 12 year old youth you'd be up there passing it around to members of the congregation. As a 14 year old youth you'd be preparing it with your friends and then as a 16 year old youth you'd be up there blessing it. And so when your bishop was trying to help you repent, he would have told you not to participate in the preparing or the passing of the sacrament and then you would have been sitting with your family while all your friends.

Kolby Sorensen [00:16:49] I actually. Right, yeah, I actually, because I was like so scared of people noticing that I wouldn't take the sacrament. I hid in the bathroom when the sacrament. As soon as I knew that was about to start, I left, went to the bathroom, waited it for it to be done and then came back because I was just that nervous of someone's going to notice I didn't take her, that I'm not up there passing. And so I was like, I'm just going to go and hide in the bathroom for a bit.

John Dehlin [00:17:11] How'd that feel?

Kolby Sorensen [00:17:17] I think shame's probably the perfect word. Just kind of that, that feel of a need to hide that you've done something wrong, that you have to keep it buried in secret, even though it's something that, because it's the sacrament, it's out there and kind of open for every and anyone to see.

Gerardo Sumano [00:17:35] I, I, it's not my mission, but I'm pretty sure before I was taught pretty explicitly that the reason why, one of the reasons why members are not allowed to take the sacrament when they commit like, sin, usually it's sexual sins, is so, so they can. Because part of the repentance process is feeling shame for what you did. And that, that like everyone seeing that you don't take the sacrament helps you get that shame that you need in order to, to fully repent. And so feeling shame while everyone notices that you're not, that you're unworthy is part of the repentance process. Were you taught that, John?

John Dehlin [00:18:22] Interesting. I never had, I never, I had this, There's, I was told once as a teen that I couldn't take the sacrament for two weeks because with my girlfriend we went just a tiny bit farther than we should have. I don't, I think it was, I had a pretty cool bishop, and for me it was more just like, hey, this is the way you can get right with the Lord again.

Kolby Sorensen [00:18:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:48] So I wasn't told shame. No, yeah, yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:18:50] I was told that it was, it was part of, of the process of repentance to feel the shame when everyone notices that you can't please sacrament.

Kolby Sorensen [00:18:58] I definitely hadn't heard that. The way it was explained to me was just like, that you have to take a break from those. That way you can, like, realize how much you do need them and like to be able to fully repent and heal from it. That you have to have a break from something that's supposed to renew your covenant of baptism, which is what wiped you clean from sin. Kind of weird. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:19:17] But there's no way to do it privately because everybody, your peers will know. Your deacon, teachers or priests will know. Your young men's, young women's leaders will know. Your parents will know, your siblings will be looking at you. Why aren't you taking. You know, the sacrament will come to you, it'll be passed to you. You know, everyone's around you, and then you, like, have to just pass it on and not take it.

Kolby Sorensen [00:19:39] That or you're the lucky one that you're on the edge of the seat, so they're about to hand it to you, and so you're Going to grab it and hand it over while looking at them in the eyes and them just knowing exactly why.

John Dehlin [00:19:51] Yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [00:19:53] Crazy. And it was. Something always stuck to me as weird because I remembered in like dnc, I can't remember what section where Joseph Smith, I think was saying, basically like, let private sins be counseled in private. I'm like, hey, if it's something that's supposed to be in private, why is it that you're stopped from partaking in this very open thing? That didn't. I didn't see it as anything as a big deal, but I just always thought like, that's kind of weird.

John Dehlin [00:20:16] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:20:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:18] Sometimes when, when I'm thinking about trying to be charitable with my Mormon upbringing, sometimes I feel like, oh, this is. Some of these things are horrible. Other times I feel like, well, you learn discipline, you learn hard. You know, you learn to self control, you learn to do hard things for you. Was it traumatic or was it like, hey, I learned self discipline or somewhere in the middle. Well, if you had to say, yeah,

Kolby Sorensen [00:20:40] somewhere in the middle, because it was like, yeah, it's about learning self discipline and control and not acting on being able to be the master of your own ship kind of thing. It's. You're not controlled by your urges. You control your urges, your urges don't control you. But there definitely was that factor of. Yeah, I guess maybe not traumatized, but definitely shame. Like, it was a big part and definitely affected me during those times when I didn't. I felt really anxious about it. I would be scared about going to church and like, like I was scared enough that I hid in the bathroom because I was just nervous about people knowing or thinking that I did something wrong because that's just kind of part of the. I'd say the Mormon culture is kind of putting on a pretty face and like, oh, look, see how great of a family we are. Look how perfect we're doing.

John Dehlin [00:21:24] Yeah. The one thing for sure is the church ends up. I think many of us are concerned, are concerned with informed consent, but also undue influence and undue influence, shame becomes a really important part of making you feel like you need the church. You can't be happy or healthy without the church. And. And it's shame that's kind of the. The axle that that church devotion can often circle around. And in that sense, I have a problem with the shame because it makes people feel like they're dependent.

Kolby Sorensen [00:21:55] No, definitely.

John Dehlin [00:21:56] Yeah. Psychologically. Okay. I assume you did release time seminary in your local high school.

Seminary Experiences and Church History Taught

Kolby Sorensen [00:22:05] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:22:06] Do you want to Explain what that is. And because it's so bizarre, I still can't believe the state of Utah, a sovereign US State, allows the intermingling of religion and public education.

Kolby Sorensen [00:22:19] It works. Yeah. Release time. Basically, you get a period off where you go to an LDS seminary.

John Dehlin [00:22:25] You're in high school, right?

Kolby Sorensen [00:22:26] In high school, yeah. This is in high school.

John Dehlin [00:22:28] So you're doing your schedule at the beginning of each year.

Kolby Sorensen [00:22:30] Yeah, it's a classic sign up, do

John Dehlin [00:22:32] I want biology or chemistry or English or math? And you have the option. Or release time, which is Release time. What?

Kolby Sorensen [00:22:38] Release time. Seminary. Yeah, release time of seminary. And it's going to. That. That class is a separate building, like a little off the school property, usually

John Dehlin [00:22:47] kind of across the street. And there's a Mormon seminary building that all the Mormon kids are shuffling every class period to and from, right? Yeah, yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [00:22:56] And you just go. And it's kind of Sunday school. Plus you just get a little more. It's just an extra day of the week. Well, not extra day. It's an extra class period where you continue those studies and talk a ton about the church and go through different scriptures. They no longer did the. What was it? Doctrinal mastery. It was. Or scripture mastery. Started doing doctrinal mastery in said where I was like, before, it was scriptural mastery. I was never part mastery where you'd

John Dehlin [00:23:23] memorize scriptures and then do scripture chase to try and see who could find the scripture the fastest.

Kolby Sorensen [00:23:29] I never did that.

John Dehlin [00:23:29] That's what I did.

Kolby Sorensen [00:23:30] Yeah, I never did the doctrinal master, which is just like, do you understand these doctrines? But we still did scripture ch. I thought were super fun because I liked the. Everyone likes a little bit of competition, like being like, oh, yeah, I found it the fastest. Look at me flip through my quad right here.

John Dehlin [00:23:45] Yeah. Did you like. I mean, we recently had Brad Wilcox Week on Mormon Stories. He's an example of kind of a CES instructor. Did you like your seminary teachers?

Kolby Sorensen [00:23:57] Oh, I loved all of them.

Gerardo Sumano [00:23:58] They were.

John Dehlin [00:23:59] What were they like?

Kolby Sorensen [00:24:03] I had really kind ones. Like, a lot of them were really, I say, like, good emotional, like, really sympathetic and empathetic towards students. They really, you could tell, like, they cared about the people in the classroom and they liked their job, they liked being there, they loved the church and being able to talk about it. And yeah, I liked the classes. I remember my favorite year was my junior year. I had an amazing teacher and two of my best friends in the class. And we would be the ones always, like, shooting our hands up to try to answer the questions and getting excited about whatever the topic was.

John Dehlin [00:24:36] If you had to describe the techniques or the tactics that were used to make kids excited about religion and about the church, would you have any ways you would describe it?

Kolby Sorensen [00:24:51] Candy? Once in a while, I think that's a big factor. I think just trying to. The teachers were good at trying to make it more relatable, using more like, parable type lessons to make it fit for a younger, very different audience.

Gerardo Sumano [00:25:09] Doesn't. Don't seminary teachers tend to be a little more charismatic than what you would see on a regular Sunday school? You know, someone that it's not their job, but it's just like in Sunday school, like, is a voluntary position where like seminary people are selected and like, filtered through and like, you know, like, it's hard to get a job as a seminary teacher. They tend to be a little more charismatic. Am I. Am I right? Was that your experience?

Kolby Sorensen [00:25:38] Yeah, I'd say that's. That's a way to describe it. They. They're usually charismatic. They're good at, I guess, kind of entertaining a crowd a bit. You know, they knew how to talk and present in a fun way in front of a classroom. They felt like kind of like TED talk speakers. They know what they're doing while they're up there.

Gerardo Sumano [00:25:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:54] So they can be funny, they can be emotional, they can be heartfelt, they can be. They can tell a good story. We're talking John, by the way, Hank Smith.

Kolby Sorensen [00:26:01] Yeah, very much like that.

John Dehlin [00:26:02] Yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [00:26:03] John, by the way, esque kind of thing with either. Yeah. Making a lot of jokes to make it more fun or having like, a lot of emotional stories that they would share to, to kind of bring you in more.

Gerardo Sumano [00:26:15] Yeah, yeah. As far as, like, the history of the church that you were taught or, you know, like doctrines that you were taught in seminary. I mean, I'm not asking you to compare them to what you later found out, but what would be the things that you understood or started learning about history of the church and all that on seminary?

Kolby Sorensen [00:26:38] I'd say pretty similar to what I would have learned growing up. They started to touch on, of course, a little more polygamy and like. Yep, the church did polygamy, but it was usually a lot of the. We don't really know why, but it was a thing we did.

John Dehlin [00:26:52] Yeah. And just to. Just to back up, kind of. To piggyback on your question, Gerardo.

Gerardo Sumano [00:26:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:56] So if, if the gospel. If the Gospel Topics essays were released around 2014, 13, 2014, they would have started coming out and then and then the church. And of course several high profile excommunications would have happened between 2013 and 2016. And so you would have been in high school. Right. As the gospel topics essays were starting to become more aware, which is. Was the Mormon Church's attempt to respond to the Internet and be more honest about its history. But they also would have started to be incorporating a bit more of a factual history into their curriculum. So yeah, like in what ways were you not well prepared versus prepared for what would come later, which was the CES letter?

Book of Abraham and Partial Truths in Seminary

Kolby Sorensen [00:27:48] The one I'd say the most prepared for would be the Book of Abraham. That's the only one I recall like going into more depth, but I don't think they used the gospel topic essay. I think they avoided going to that still. But we talked about that more in depth.

John Dehlin [00:28:00] What would they have said to you?

Kolby Sorensen [00:28:02] They kind of went over like, okay, we know that some people, they wouldn't ever be specific about like what people's concerns or complaints. But it's basically like some people have concerns about the Book of Abraham, but what matters is, is that it's, it's doctrine and it's important scripture to us and it brings that spiritual understanding and that there's other ways that it could have been brought. And they kind of lead you to answering the questions of giving it to you like, well, what are other ways Joseph could have known this? And it's like, I think eventually like one of them was supposed to lead to like, kind of like the idea of like the catalyst theory, that it was just an inspiration. I remember it kind of being set up that you're supposed to be led to saying that answer for yourself, not just the teacher outright saying it.

Gerardo Sumano [00:28:41] So instead of focusing on how it's not really a translation and like the Egyptian characters didn't have anything to do with Abraham, they focus on like, oh, how could Joseph Smith know all this stuff about Egypt? And look at how great the Book of Abraham is doctrinally and is so spiritual. Was that kind of like the message that you were getting?

Kolby Sorensen [00:29:03] Yeah, no, that would definitely summarize the message really well is that it's just kind of focus on the spiritual part of it.

John Dehlin [00:29:09] So prior to, let's just say you had a Book of Abraham lesson in seminary. Prior to the lesson, would you have known anything about the Book of Abraham or was your seminary experience the first introduction you had to the, the hieroglyphics, the papyrus? I heard about it growing up.

Kolby Sorensen [00:29:28] Yeah, I definitely heard about them growing up. But like really Understanding more about it would have come through seminary. Like, I liked. I remember I looked at the facsimiles a lot because I thought they looked cool. I remember doing that a ton growing up. Just like, these look really neat. Yeah, not really.

John Dehlin [00:29:42] So would they have said, we're going to teach you the story of the Book of Abraham. And then they would have talked to you about the scrolls and the mummies. So they would have introduced that whole story to you in seminary.

Kolby Sorensen [00:29:52] And it was like, yeah, we went over the whole story. And like, that was kind of. It was prefaced with like, it doesn't really matter how we got here. It's that it's important scripture. That's kind of like the small point they touch on. And of course, going deeper into, like, here's why it's important to our doctrine and our understanding of how the world works.

John Dehlin [00:30:09] So what's super significant about this, why I'm loving this interview? One of the many reasons I'm excited about this interview, you know, we. We Gerardo and I and others refer to that as inoculation. In other words, they're. They're putting a little bit of the germ or the bug in the minds of youth. And just to back up a tiny bit, when Marlon Jensen, you know, the Swedish rescue happened with Hans Matson back in the 2000 and tens. Right. They would have. Marlon Jensen would have been going all around the world talking to Mormon adults about their faith crisis. And Marlon Jensen would have concluded that adults are lost Once. Once the adults feel betrayed, you're never really getting them back. And so it would have. They would have made a decision, going to just realize that we're going to lose a bunch of adults. But we need to inoculate the youth so that they don't feel betrayed. So when they decided to incorporate Book of Abraham into your curriculum, it would have been intentionally, with the intent of inoculating you against learning about the Book of Abraham later.

Kolby Sorensen [00:31:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:16] And so you. I'm sure you would have had no concept of this or while you were learning about the Book of Abraham, right?

Kolby Sorensen [00:31:23] No, not at all. And it was really crazy. Like, eventually I did listen to your guys episode on inoculation, just realizing, oh, that's what they did to me. This is me. I recognize this stuff. This is what happened. And just seeing how subtle it is, but how much it did make an impact still.

John Dehlin [00:31:45] I mean, I'm conflicted because I. And it's hard to ask you this because I don't want to get ahead of ourselves in the Story. But it, you know, it obviously maybe didn't work as well for you, but there's also probably a lot of other youth for whom it may have worked. Oh, and so, you know, so what. What role did that serve at the time anyway? The inoculation. If you had to describe it at

Kolby Sorensen [00:32:11] the time, honestly, I wouldn't even notice it. It was. I was just like fully into the church. Like, I had no even conceptualization of the thought that maybe the church could be false. That was just not a possibility in my brain. So learning about that, I was just like, oh, yeah, well, duh. Of course, the Book of Abraham's true. Of course Joseph translated it in some way by the power of God. Duh.

Gerardo Sumano [00:32:32] Yeah, that's.

John Dehlin [00:32:34] That's powerful because. Because they would have introduced a very problematic topic to you in a way to where you're just like, oh, there's no problem here. This is awesome.

Kolby Sorensen [00:32:42] And church is true. Something that could be problematic. It was just a. This is here.

John Dehlin [00:32:47] If they can contextualize it in the right way, you learn it without recognizing there's any problem. You want to say something harder?

Gerardo Sumano [00:32:54] Yeah. He mentioned that he. They planted a seed. They said, well, there's people that criticize the Book of Abraham, you know, but we got to focus on this amazing stuff. But they don't realize how amazing the Book of Abraham is, you know, like, so they say. They would say stuff like this. And then another thing that, I mean, I experienced this when I was in an institute class at byu, Idaho is they started using the Michael Chandler Papyra, all that story to get people excited, but never focus on the fact, the real issues with the fact that it's not a translation. So they would talk about the whole story. I remember on my institute class, they would make us memorize like the year the Rosetta Stone was found. And, you know, all this stuff like, why does it matter when the Rosetta Stone was found and deciphered if. If it doesn't have anything to do. If the Book of Abraham doesn't have anything to do with papaya, but they try to, like, you know, put the focus elsewhere, which I think it's. It's kind of interesting.

John Dehlin [00:34:01] I think the idea is if they make you think like, you know, all you need to know about the issue and that it's not only not a problem, but that it's like faith promoting, then. Then they've kind of like in stamp that in your brain so that then when it comes later, what it doesn't

Kolby Sorensen [00:34:22] phase you as much that was definitely the goal, and it worked for a time. So, I mean, it's like a good. I don't want to say good job. I guess it kind of works. So you're onto something. Maybe.

John Dehlin [00:34:33] Well, we talked about this in our Sandra Tanner polygamy episode. There's just so much that they don't tell you intentionally. That is that, again, informed consent. We're not here to take people out of the church, but we just believe people deserve to know the truth. And I don't know, I feel like it's a dishonest act, fundamentally, to do that inoculation without letting you know the problems. You're an impressionable youth. You're literally. Your brain is forming. They're trying to get you on a mission. And so it's kind of manipulative to not give you all the full facts, to not help you understand why there's a problem, but to kind of, like, knock you late. How do you feel?

Kolby Sorensen [00:35:15] 100%. Especially we're like, I mean, who is it that. The quote. It's like not telling the whole truth is the same as lying. Like, what the church does is against what their own prophets and apostles would say. It's. It's such a weird contradiction to see. And it's very much. You know, they're trying to just give you this very. You focus on a piece of wood saying, yep, this is wood, without looking at the whole forest. I can't remember exactly how that saying goes, but it's like something along that. You know what I mean?

John Dehlin [00:35:43] The forest in the trees.

Kolby Sorensen [00:35:44] Yeah, the forest in the trees. It's like if you spend your whole time saying, yeah, this is a tree, you'll miss the whole forest. You can. There's a lot more to be looked at.

Gerardo Sumano [00:35:52] So they focus on an issue at a time, you know, and spaced out with a lot of doctrine, with a lot of spirituality, with a lot of stories, and to make you look at each problem individually and in a very surface level. And that doesn't let you see the. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:10] By focusing on the trees, you're not seeing the forest. Yeah. Yeah. And that's. That's not informed consent. And. And. Oh, I really love the point you just made. So what would the church have taught you? Real honesty was.

Kolby Sorensen [00:36:25] Real honesty is telling the full truth of what you know and not trying to hide or obscure any of it.

John Dehlin [00:36:31] And I was taught partial truth. Partial lies. Right. Partial truth is bad.

Kolby Sorensen [00:36:35] Partial truth is still a lie because you're not telling the whole truth.

Gerardo Sumano [00:36:39] Yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [00:36:40] Take your own advice. Come on.

John Dehlin [00:36:42] Yeah. Okay. Okay, cool. So Book of Abraham, you were inoculated back to Gerardo's question. Like, do you remember any other discussions of kind of controversial topics? Like, what. What false things would have you still been taught? Like, what false representations would you have been given? And I can go through the list. So, like, let's just do it. So first vision. What would you have been taught?

Kolby Sorensen [00:37:06] Not even mentioning that there are other accounts. There's just. There's the one account you read from, and that's. That's it.

John Dehlin [00:37:12] Okay. So you. Okay, how about Stone in the Hat Treasures?

Kolby Sorensen [00:37:15] So I don't even think that was ever mentioned. I learned that, like, later on my mission ring through other stuff. I thought it was just the ermine thummim.

John Dehlin [00:37:22] So the translation.

Kolby Sorensen [00:37:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:25] There were plates.

Kolby Sorensen [00:37:26] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:37:27] When? Soon. Joseph Smith translates the Book of Mormon. You would have been taught what, that

Kolby Sorensen [00:37:32] he did it by the gift and power of God. Using the urm and Thummond to, like, read through the physical copy of the plates.

John Dehlin [00:37:37] While they're in front of him?

Kolby Sorensen [00:37:38] While they're in front of him. They're in the room, not underneath anything. And he's saying it to his scribe.

John Dehlin [00:37:43] No stone in the hat.

Kolby Sorensen [00:37:44] No stone in the hat at all.

John Dehlin [00:37:46] Okay. And no mention of treasure digging as

Kolby Sorensen [00:37:48] a not at all career before. Not even sort of. No mention of the real reason why, like, Joseph was arrested and why people had an issue with him. It was always framed as just. They didn't like that he had this new religion going on.

John Dehlin [00:38:01] Okay, what about any mention of Fanny Alger?

Kolby Sorensen [00:38:05] No, no. Like, the most they would go into polygamy was like, yeah, it's a thing the church did. And that would be about it. They practice polygamy. Joseph Smith did it. It was doctrine. Oh, you did hear that. So they did it later on in seminary, during my youth, I would have heard that Joseph only taught polygamy, but did not practice it himself. He was only faithful to Emma.

John Dehlin [00:38:25] Okay, but that's a big deal. So while you're in Utah Mormon Seminary, they introduced to you the idea that Joseph. Well, the fact that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy, that's a big deal. I did not have that. I didn't learn that till my 30s.

Kolby Sorensen [00:38:39] Yeah, I think it's definitely something they would rather not talk about, but definitely were forced to because it's just something that's pretty out there for anyone to know. And so it's a lot better for them from their perspective if we. If we introduce it. It's going to be a Lot easier than them hearing it from someone else.

Gerardo Sumano [00:38:55] How did you. How would they tell you? Did you have any idea how many wives? What kind of wives?

Kolby Sorensen [00:39:01] No.

John Dehlin [00:39:02] How'd they introduce it?

Kolby Sorensen [00:39:03] It would be like the introduction was just that Joseph practiced polygamy because he also taught it and that he followed of like they weren't explicitly say it, but basically not setting up that there were any issues with it or that he didn't tell Emma. Like that would have all been left out completely. It was so much just Joseph practiced polygamy the same way he had other members and that. Oh that he didn't like it. That it was always a great trouble to him. It was so hard for him. So such a trying time. Many sleepless nights. That's probably true. That's probably.

John Dehlin [00:39:40] Yeah, there were some sleepless nights. Oh, sorry, sorry. I went too far. So, okay, so no mention of underage girls, 14 year olds.

Kolby Sorensen [00:39:50] Like any detail like that that would be troubling at all is definitely left out. Like I cannot recall anything like that ever being mentioned.

John Dehlin [00:39:58] No mention of.

Gerardo Sumano [00:40:00] Which is interesting because we. Because that's how we talk about Brigham Young's polygamy. Even among ex Mormons. We don't really know much about Brigham Young polygamy. I mean, we know he had many wives, but we don't really know their names much, you know. So my guess is that's how you view Joseph Smith polygamy. Like, oh, he practiced polygamy like Brigham Young. That's it.

Kolby Sorensen [00:40:20] Yeah, no, that. That would have been it. He practiced polygamy like Brigham Young and like the rest of the church members would have.

Gerardo Sumano [00:40:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:26] No mention of polyandry or Joseph marrying other men's wives.

Kolby Sorensen [00:40:29] Not at all.

Race, LGBTQ Issues, and Faith Before the Mission

John Dehlin [00:40:30] Okay, so you wouldn't have known that word?

Kolby Sorensen [00:40:32] No, I, Yeah, I would have known that word, I think like from like a social studies class, but not at all. Anywhere from the church. Like it'd be from a separate history class. Just talking about what that means, but without any context of Joseph Smith involved.

John Dehlin [00:40:46] Any addressing of Book of Mormon historicity in your seminary experience. So, you know, anachronisms, horses, steel wheels. Any way to knock any attempts to inoculate you around that?

Kolby Sorensen [00:40:58] None that I can recall. I just remember usually like, oh look, see, we have these old Mayan ruins. This is proof that the Nephites and Lamanites were here.

John Dehlin [00:41:09] That sound right? Herodo?

Kolby Sorensen [00:41:10] Their cultures are so similar.

Gerardo Sumano [00:41:12] That's what I was taught.

John Dehlin [00:41:13] Yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [00:41:14] Or that like I remember when it's like, look at. I can't remember what it Was. There's the one. Yeah. Where it's like, oh, look. See, it talks about a white man returning. It must be Jesus. There can't be any other reason they know of a white guy. And Jesus was definitely very white as well.

John Dehlin [00:41:33] What about Joseph's death? Anything? How was that framed?

Kolby Sorensen [00:41:37] His martyrdom exactly as that was a martyrdom. It's such a tragedy. He was just an innocent lamb going to the slaughter. They only persecuted him because of. He was trying to preach the truth and religion, and they did not like that. So he was taken to jail and he willingly went to. I think they talked about, like, that he willingly went to try to, like, subside the mobs or something like that. But then that it was just mobs that came in.

John Dehlin [00:41:58] So courageous. Like. Well, I know it was very much.

Kolby Sorensen [00:42:01] It's an act of heroism. He was very much hero.

Gerardo Sumano [00:42:05] Yeah. There's this rhetoric, too, that he knew he was gonna die. Oh, that made him a prophet. Right.

Kolby Sorensen [00:42:10] Like, definitely.

Gerardo Sumano [00:42:12] Like, he was getting stuff prepared, but somehow no one knew who was gonna be his successor. But he knew he was gonna die.

Kolby Sorensen [00:42:19] Good roadmap planned out. Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:42:21] Yeah. How about race in the priesthood?

Kolby Sorensen [00:42:24] Like, I don't remember that really being talked about at all.

John Dehlin [00:42:28] The priesthood ban in 1978.

Kolby Sorensen [00:42:30] I think maybe that was talked about, but then within context of just the quote of Brigham Young being like, eventually the African Americans shall have all the rights to the priesthood. And that's the whole. That's the whole quote. Don't check that for yourselves. Anybody?

John Dehlin [00:42:45] So no mention of Brigham Young's racism. Only a mention that Brigham was this awesome prophet who foresaw people of color receiving the priesthood. That's awesome.

Kolby Sorensen [00:42:55] He loved African Americans. He called. What's his name? I can't remember his name. I feel so bad for that. Elijah Abel. Yeah, Elijah Abel. He's like, look at one of our best mem. Like, that would be the only part told. It would be painted as they were very against race. Oh, yeah. I remember growing up being told, like, yeah, Joseph, he was very against racism, and so was the whole church. Or slavery, not racism. And that during the Civil Rights movement that we were with, like, on that side and what the. Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:43:20] In General Conference, there was a 70s that said, I am so glad to be part of a church who has always been against racism.

Kolby Sorensen [00:43:29] I very much remember that. Like, I can't remember when. It was probably when I was a little kid, because I have no memory of exactly, like, the time, but very much believing that and thinking, yeah, that's so awesome that, you know, we were there and helping with the civil rights movement and that we were so supportive of that.

John Dehlin [00:43:44] This almost feels like, like, KGB kind of misinformation. Like Orwellian.

Gerardo Sumano [00:43:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:49] Like rewriting history, indoctrinating youth a little bit.

Kolby Sorensen [00:43:55] Yeah. I remember there's just, I mean, tons of scattered, weird doctrinal things that I would have been told that now, of course, are like, oh, it's just teachers saying weird stuff.

Gerardo Sumano [00:44:05] But something I noticed on the seminary manuals is a lot of emphasis, especially on when you study the Old Testament, but also doctrine covenants, a lot of emphasis on inoculating the youth regarding LGBT issues.

Kolby Sorensen [00:44:21] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:44:21] And the marriage between a man and a woman.

John Dehlin [00:44:23] Oh, yeah. Talk about that.

Kolby Sorensen [00:44:25] No, that was. Yeah. Drilled into me that I saw the family, all that.

Gerardo Sumano [00:44:28] Yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [00:44:28] I remember very much during the time when, like, the. The LGBTQ movement was going on, them trying to be able to, you know, just be able to legally get married.

John Dehlin [00:44:37] Oh, you. You keep going. But you would have been there when the. When the thing came down. Okay, keep going.

Kolby Sorensen [00:44:43] Yeah. And very much them being like, yeah, we oppose this because it's against God. And growing up definitely having those. Like, as a little younger, once I was in high school, I had a friend who was lgbtq. And because of that, I definitely had, like, a lot of my view change. But before then, it was very much I had that very straightforward church view of like, yeah, homosexuality, absolute sin that shouldn't be legal or allowed. Like, I didn't see. I don't know. I don't want to say the church tries to dehumanize them, but that's definitely how it feels sometimes. Or they're not. They're second class people. You know, they don't get to just show love for who they love or have these basic rights that anyone else would, but just because they're different, they see that as evil and want that taken away. And that was something that definitely was, I guess, hard for me in a way, because, like I said, I had a. A friend who was LGBTQ and in high school. In high school. Yeah, she came out and that was a big moment because it made me start to actually think about that more because I never had critically thought about that. And so her coming out made me. Had to realize just. It just made me. Had to reevaluate a lot with my thought process towards that. And the church was trying to reword everything they said about it during the time as well.

John Dehlin [00:46:00] Man. So what's it like for a Mormon girl in Utah, in Salt Lake area suburbs, suburban Salt Lake, to come out as lesbian at her high school in the late 2010s. What was that like?

Kolby Sorensen [00:46:14] Hers was for her. From one. I don't want to share too much. She might be watching this. I don't want to say names, but. Hi, if you are watching it, hope you're doing well.

John Dehlin [00:46:25] Like, how did.

Kolby Sorensen [00:46:25] She was very much hiding it. Like, her parents didn't know until way later because she didn't want to tell him. She was scared she'd get kicked out and that they would no longer love her.

John Dehlin [00:46:33] Kicked out of her home?

Kolby Sorensen [00:46:34] Yeah, she was scared of being kicked out of her home. There were only very few people that she told. Like, it was like a very. Only the close friends knew, and she even lost.

John Dehlin [00:46:44] So she didn't come out to the whole school?

Kolby Sorensen [00:46:46] No, very much not. It was a. It was. Yeah, it was a very undercover kind of thing. And she even had a friend that she lost because of it. And it was.

Gerardo Sumano [00:46:56] You were seeing how much she was struggling because of who she was, and then. And then that would make you think, you know, and then the fact that she was your friend and you knew her and you were able to see her as like a human being, just as a normal person, that kind of start. Started you thinking, right? Is that what you're saying?

Kolby Sorensen [00:47:14] Yeah, it made me actually critically think about it and realize, like, oh, like, duh. Like, it's like a no duh statement. But it's like, these are people, too, who. This is just part of who they are. It's not a choice. This was something she talked. When she talked about. She said, like I said, she's like. She's like, looking back, it's like, oh, duh. She realizes, like, I was of course, always a lesbian, but that I very much like, before that believe the. Oh, it's just a choice. And they can choose to. To give it up and all of that and just actually have to have critical thinking about it and having all of my views about that change, which I think was obviously for the better, being able to have a lot more sympathy in that way.

John Dehlin [00:47:54] So how. So you're in high school. How did you balance believing the church but loving your friend? Was it a conflict for you?

Kolby Sorensen [00:48:01] No, it wasn't. It was a. I don't know. I guess I didn't even think about it much because it was just like, this is my friend. They're awesome. They're a great person. Of course, I like. I love and appreciate them. They're. They're human. They're I didn't see them as a sinner at all. I just saw. I saw them as a good person and was, like, worried about them when they were worried about their. I was worried with them about, like, their parents finding out and all that kind of stuff. Like, I guess in my mind, I kind of separated those two things. Looking back, I think that's what I had to have done because the. I was very supportive of her. Like, she for a while was in a relationship. I was like, yeah, that's good for you. Where like, the Mormon teaching of that, of course, would be to only either abstain or to just date the opposite gender, to try to pray the gay way kind of thing. And I guess I separated both of those things in my mind and didn't worry about it much because I just. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:55] But it's fair to say that was maybe something you put like a crack or something you put on your shelf.

Kolby Sorensen [00:49:00] It definitely. I don't think it was something I ever consciously realized until, like, later when I lost my faith in the church, but it definitely, I think, was a big factor and helped to be able to. It was one of the things that definitely would have helped plant the seeds to be able to get me to where I am now.

John Dehlin [00:49:17] Yeah. Yeah. Going back to the issue of. Of race of. Jen just highlighted a. A quote from Quentin Cook in October 2021, where Quentin Cook writes, one of the reasons for the violent opposition to Mormons in the early days of the church was most of them were opposed to slavery. So this is kind of like rewriting history that Mormons experienced persecution not because Joseph was sleeping with a bunch of women, breaking the law, and marching his militia around neighboring towns declaring down kings of the world, but because Mormons were just so anti slavery.

Kolby Sorensen [00:50:01] Yeah. They just could not stand that we were.

John Dehlin [00:50:04] We're getting. We're being a little bit cynical.

Kolby Sorensen [00:50:06] I can't even.

John Dehlin [00:50:08] Yeah. Anyway, thanks for sharing. Dear, Dear viewer, thank you for sharing. I guess that was. Catherine, class, thank you for sharing that quote. It's a nice illustration. Okay, any other. Any other important points? We didn't cover women. Women in the priesthood. Was that covered in high school at all?

Kolby Sorensen [00:50:28] Yeah, no, it was because I remember that. I remember that movement happening and kind

John Dehlin [00:50:31] of just all the ordained women.

Kolby Sorensen [00:50:32] Yeah, the ordained. I remember that happening and remember hearing about it because I think there's a. I remember seeing it on the news, even at one point. I think it was maybe after a conference or something. I don't remember the specifics anyways. I remember seeing that of course, immediately like, I can't remember who it was. Someone I knew. It might have been my family or might have been like at church or seminary later. But like, oh, well, we don't have to worry about that as like women. Well, I remember one person like women will probably get the priesthood in God's own time. Another saying, like, women don't need the priesthood because they get the, the gift of childbearing because of that. Like, I never, I've heard of others who had like the woman don't need it because look, they're already like kind of like one upped on men. I never had like that heard of that kind of teaching. But definitely the. They're blessed with being able to birth a child. And so that's why er, like this or that.

Perfection Culture and Pre-Mission Church Life

John Dehlin [00:51:20] Okay, all right, I have, I have a question about. So, so if, if the essays are coming out in 2014, you know, they're excommunications between 2013 and 2016. High profile excommunications. And then the CES letter comes out. Let's just say 2015, 2016, kind of around that time. And by the way, podcasts have been, you know, 10 years into their Mormon themed podcasts have been around for at least 10 years by the time you're in high school. And there's Reddit and there's, you know, Facebook Mormon themed progressive or post Mormon themed Facebook groups. I'm wondering, I would just think I could imagine a bunch of Mormon kids in high school. Someone stumbles on CES letter, passes it around all the kids and it's like this epidemic that sweeps through or, or one, one Mormon kid starts listening to a Mormon themed podcast that's controversial and then all of a sudden they start sharing it with their friends or even YouTube stuff like Brother Jake stuff would have been out by this time. And so I'm wondering how that didn't happen with you and your peers in the late 2000. Teens living as a Mormon kid in Utah. Can you talk about the bubble or.

Kolby Sorensen [00:52:43] Yeah, it was just. Yeah, I was, I was definitely within that bubble where just none of that stuff existed. I was completely unaware to. I probably knew one person. I remember it was in a debate class and he had mentioned that he left the church. He's like, oh yeah, it's because they. There's just questions that as soon as you ask them, they won't answer them. And me being the in the bubble Mormon kid, I was. I'm like, of course they'd answer him. They'd answer any Question like not at all understanding that there are these much more serious topics going around. So I was completely out of the loop that anything like that existed.

John Dehlin [00:53:13] How would they have kept you from just googling and being curious?

Kolby Sorensen [00:53:17] Well, that's a pretty simple way is that ever since I was a kid, I could even remember always just in general conference, even just very much painting that not that the Internet is evil, but that the Internet just cannot be trusted once it comes to topics about the gospel. Because it's only through like scripture that you can really know the truth and that the Internet is not a good source for any of that.

John Dehlin [00:53:40] So along with stay away from porn, growing up and masturbation, you would have been taught from a very young age to distrust information about the church available on the Internet.

Kolby Sorensen [00:53:51] Like distrust. And it's all just anti Mormon lies. And scientists just have their own agenda with things.

Gerardo Sumano [00:53:57] How about evolution? Because you would be learning about evolution in school and then how would you reconcile that with the story of Adam and Eve?

Kolby Sorensen [00:54:06] Mine was very much the, oh well, evolution is just a theory. It's not like there's much credence behind because I just, I was just completely in the church. Like looking back, I'm like, wow, that's pretty dumb of me. There's plenty of evidence. But I just, I was like, oh, there's not really much evidence for that. And I mean, come on, the church is true, so there's no way that could be right. Right.

Gerardo Sumano [00:54:26] This because my husband grew up in Idaho and I mean we're older, we're 27. But he was telling me that he, he learned about evolution in school and as a pretty much a fact, like he was taught this is how evolution is. It's not like it's pretty much indisputable. And, and then his dad, his dad is a scientist, so he was able to reconcile, you know, Adam and Eve with, with evolution, but still believing in evolution and believing in Adam. But you're saying in school you would be taught like, oh, this is just a theory, you don't have to accept it.

Kolby Sorensen [00:55:02] That was very much how my teacher presented it was just that it was like just a theory.

John Dehlin [00:55:06] Science teacher?

Kolby Sorensen [00:55:07] Yeah, it was ninth grade. Yeah, ninth grade biology.

John Dehlin [00:55:13] Your ninth grade science teacher is teaching you the bio that evolution is just kind of a theory that you don't have to accept.

Kolby Sorensen [00:55:20] I don't think she would have word it like that, but very much of like using the softest wording she could to make it seem like it's not like the fact that it is just kind of using very strong words, like making sure to emphasize theory and stuff like that, and kind of dancing around having to dive into that anymore. And I mean, my parents, from what I know, or at least then I can't speak for them, but from what I understand, they very much don't believe in evolution. That was just. Adam and Eve were parents of all of humanity. And that's what I grew up believing, of course. And I've even heard some of the crazy, maybe dinosaurs are just God's sense of humor kind of thing.

John Dehlin [00:56:02] So you would have. How, like, by the time you graduated from high school, how old was the Earth, do you think? What was your views on how?

Kolby Sorensen [00:56:09] My view of it was that it would be like millions of years old. And I think my way of reconciling that was like billions. Yeah, okay.

John Dehlin [00:56:18] Billions.

Kolby Sorensen [00:56:18] I couldn't think of the exact number.

John Dehlin [00:56:19] Okay. No, it's fine.

Kolby Sorensen [00:56:20] But the way I reconcile is like, well, we don't know how long Adam and Eve were actually in the Garden of Eden. And like, maybe a day. The whole maybe a day isn't actually a day. God's time could be different than man's time.

Gerardo Sumano [00:56:30] Right.

Kolby Sorensen [00:56:31] Kind of was the way it justified itself.

Gerardo Sumano [00:56:34] But in my head, were you given those, like, little printouts of the timeline of the Old Testament where it says Adam and Eve lived 7,000 years ago? You were not given that?

Kolby Sorensen [00:56:46] No, I wasn't ever.

Gerardo Sumano [00:56:47] I.

Kolby Sorensen [00:56:48] If I was, I don't remember them that much. Yeah, from. From my memory.

John Dehlin [00:56:51] Now, would you have believed that Adam and Eve were the first humans?

Kolby Sorensen [00:56:54] Yeah, they are the first humans.

John Dehlin [00:56:55] And would you believe that there was a literal global flood where. Yep, Noah put all the 2 of all animals in an ark and the

Kolby Sorensen [00:57:03] whole earth got flooded, got two of every animals from every continent onto that boat. And the Tower of Babel was a very historical event. All that was that the Book of Mormon? Everything about it was. These are historical events and facts. These are what happened.

John Dehlin [00:57:18] Okay. Okay. All right. Well, I think we get a decent sense of your education up through high school. Is there anything else you want to share about your personal life, family life from. From high school?

Kolby Sorensen [00:57:33] There's only one more thing that stands out, and it's just, I guess, something I'd like to talk about because I know it's something I've seen affect a lot of families, and it's the kind of the perfection culture that exists within the Mormon Church. Like, my parents suffered with that. A lot of kind of beating themselves up as parents because, oh, look at all these parents, they're perfect and they're doing such a good job with all their kids, and we're over here not being able to do that. And just seeing how that was a toll on their mental health was. Was kind of hard because I could see that it affected, like, my mom and my dad, my mom especially, and seeing how that would play in to their views of themselves as parents, which was hard to see because I think my parents are amazing. They're good parents, but they kind of bought into that, oh, look at these parents. They're doing such a better job than me kind of thing. And, like, the whole comparison thing. And they've grown past that, luckily, which is really good. I'm super happy to see that. And it's. I mean, it's great to see how much happier my mom is, but I guess that's just something I wanted to talk about because I think that's something. If you're in the church or out of the church, no matter what stage you're at, please don't buy into that and don't do that, because it's not something good for you. Every family has their mistakes and flaws. You're. You're trying your best. You know, your great parents love your

John Dehlin [00:58:53] mom and dad, but you saw that sometimes as being harmful to try and put off in a public image of perfection when things were not so good or not. I was perfect.

Kolby Sorensen [00:59:04] Yeah. Like, that's. I. My parents, they. They've grown past that now, which is super great to see and great to see my mom be able to see herself as a good parent without having to compare herself to others and seeing that, like, we're humans, we all make mistakes, we're not going to be perfect parents. What matters is that we're doing our best. And I love my parents. They did an amazing job. So.

John Dehlin [00:59:24] Yeah. Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:59:25] That's awesome.

John Dehlin [00:59:26] Yeah. Now, that's the thing. Like, only the perception that the gospel works only works if everybody thinks that everybody's happy and living it. If everybody's vulnerable in their ward experience, saying all the problems and all the ways they're not living up to it or all the ways they're not happy, then people are like, well, the God. It's not. The plan of happiness is if people aren't living it and they're not happy. So it forces this. This facade of happiness and perfection. Not that Mormons are always miserable, but.

Kolby Sorensen [00:59:58] No, not at all. Yeah, but it's definitely like, something that plays into and like, the. I mean, perfection, like, that perfection kind of Culture definitely like played into my mind a lot too, where I was like, I needed to just always worry about being better, trying to be more perfect because like, that's what we're told we're supposed to do. And seeing like, looking back, I guess just seeing how that affected me and others in a way is interesting.

Gerardo Sumano [01:00:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:00:23] We have a comment from a listener. Bay Flory writes, omg, he's so cute with his heart. And shout out for mom and dad, how old are you right now? Somebody asked that.

Kolby Sorensen [01:00:36] 20 years old. I almost said 19. That was bad. 20 years old. I'm 20.

John Dehlin [01:00:42] Wow.

Kolby Sorensen [01:00:43] I'd still. Just for everyone, if you don't know. I would still be on my mission right now if I stayed out for the full time. Wow.

Gerardo Sumano [01:00:50] Yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [01:00:50] That's weird to think about.

Gerardo Sumano [01:00:53] On your outline you mentioned that you, you always had an urge to call, call out authority figures.

Kolby Sorensen [01:01:02] Yeah, that's such a weird way of wording. I wish I knew how to word it right.

John Dehlin [01:01:05] Like what's normal teen stuff maybe.

Kolby Sorensen [01:01:07] Yeah. And for me, like what it was,

Gerardo Sumano [01:01:10] there was this conflicts with the idea of not criticizing. Criticizing leaders of the church.

Kolby Sorensen [01:01:15] No, definitely. Like I.

Gerardo Sumano [01:01:16] But.

John Dehlin [01:01:17] But it's harmonious with a contempt for, for hypocrisy.

Kolby Sorensen [01:01:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:21] Which is also Christian to not. Jesus called out hypocrites. So I mean there's a, there's a, there's a believing in a non believing way to call out the leaders.

Kolby Sorensen [01:01:31] Yeah. My way of it wasn't like calling out for dumb stuff. I'd say it was like there's this time, this specific example. I remember we were downtown for some sort of like it was a steak activity and we're there on the train. I was probably like 12 to 14 at the time. So pretty young. And I was with the other young men and young woman and the bishop's wife was there and there was this girl who just got on the train who like clearly was suffering from some sort of mental disability. And the bishop's wife kind of made fun of her with the kids and was poking fun at that. And that immediately pissed me off. And I was like, hey, like, what the heck? That's not okay. What are you doing? And then she backpedaled. And it's just been stuff like that where it's. I don't know, I didn't like that hypocrisy from leaders sometimes where it's like, yeah, we got to be kind to everyone. But then seeing them do the exact opposite or seeing like, yeah, just stuff like that, it easily Got on my nerves. And I don't have a problem pointing it out when there is stuff like that, Especially with people who thought. Think that they don't deserve and shouldn't have any of that criticism. I think everyone.

Gerardo Sumano [01:02:43] How would that translate to how you would see. You would have seen apostles and prophets,

Kolby Sorensen [01:02:50] like, at the time. Yeah, they were perfect. Guided by God. They. Everything they've said in conference and everything they've done is inspired. And so they're led by God. There's. They've always been perfectly guided. Like, that would have definitely been my view at the time.

Gerardo Sumano [01:03:08] So there was a difference between local leaders and apostles and prophets.

Kolby Sorensen [01:03:13] Yeah. And I guess if I would have, like, I don't know. It's hard. Yeah, I guess that would probably be my mindset at the time. It's hard to guess and say for sure, but that's probably the closest.

Gerardo Sumano [01:03:22] Yeah, it was really similar to mine.

Kolby Sorensen [01:03:24] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:03:26] It's because I grew up, you know, my dad being in the leadership for so many years, so I was able to see the humanity in leaders. But then for some reason that didn't make me go to. Oh, maybe apostles and prophets are the same. For some reason, we always put apostles and prophets in a different level than local leaders, including sometimes mission presidents.

Kolby Sorensen [01:03:52] Oh, yeah. I think they want it. I have to say, they want it structured like that, where they are these next level kind of beings who have literally seen Jesus and are perfectly guided by him and hear from him on a daily basis kind of thing. Like.

Getting a Mission Call and Prophetic Leadership

John Dehlin [01:04:06] Yeah, okay, so you would have come of age to be a missionary after the church lowered the age for men to serve missions from 1918.

Kolby Sorensen [01:04:22] I saw that. Super exciting.

John Dehlin [01:04:24] And for women from 21 to 19. So you. That was while Monson was still prophet.

Kolby Sorensen [01:04:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:04:33] So when you're of mission age, was Monson still alive or I guess Nelson would have taken.

Kolby Sorensen [01:04:38] No, it was Nelson by the time I was of mission age. But I remember, yeah, definitely growing up with Monson as like my prophet.

John Dehlin [01:04:44] Okay. Did you have any idea he had dementia as you.

Kolby Sorensen [01:04:47] No, I didn't even know that until recently. Like, it was just a couple episodes ago when you guys talked about that. Or maybe it wasn't a couple episodes. I just barely recently listened to an episode that I talked about. I was like, wait, what?

John Dehlin [01:04:59] He had dementia for years. I didn't even know the church kept it from members.

Kolby Sorensen [01:05:03] I think it was the Brit Vengers episode. I watched that and you guys mentioned. I was like, wait, wait, what? Yeah, just completely unaware to stuff like that.

John Dehlin [01:05:11] Yeah. Okay. So do you remember loving Monson, beloved prophet?

Kolby Sorensen [01:05:17] Yeah, no, I saw him was like this kind of this funny guy.

John Dehlin [01:05:19] He would do like the wiggle his ears.

Kolby Sorensen [01:05:20] Wiggle the ears thing. I think it was a little kid, like, that's super funny and awesome.

John Dehlin [01:05:23] You know, it's amazing how something like that could really promote the brand of the prophet, so to speak.

Kolby Sorensen [01:05:29] Yeah. And who's. He had like, the. Very much like, his. His Persona he put on was very much that kind of like that soft, loving speaker. While Holland has a very different style. And just like each. Each apostle, I think, has their different Persona they kind of put on. That was. That was Monson's. Was the very, like, gentle, like, grandpa kind of feel. I. I'd say that's like the description. I'd see it as like the gentle grandpa, you know?

John Dehlin [01:05:53] Yeah. And then when Nelson. When Nelson becomes prophet, what'd you think? Do you remember any thoughts?

Kolby Sorensen [01:05:59] I remember, I was like, I remember being said like, oh, that's sad that that Monson died. And then I, of course, like, I was like, wait, how is, like, the next prophet chosen? Because my mind, I'm thinking back to any story I know from the Bible.

Gerardo Sumano [01:06:10] Yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [01:06:11] Is that God himself or Jesus himself makes a personal appearance to do this kind of stuff. But then, I don't know, I definitely. Now I think I'd see it as a letdown. But then I was just like, oh, oh, it's just actually chosen by, like, this succession order. And I was like, that's not as fun. But I remember liking Nelson too. I think everyone just kind of saw it as, like, we're like, hype. Because he immediately came in and started being like, a change here, a change there, a little change everywhere, and getting people excited about that. And I even saw that as exciting, like, oh, what is he going to do next General Conference? And then he hasn't done anything too crazy since. But that's okay.

John Dehlin [01:06:45] There's a comment from one of our viewers. Jason Lewis says, Wait, what. In which episode do they talk about President Monson having dementia? I'm not sure we ever did a fully dedicated episode to it. I was still active in the church when Monson was prophet, and it would have been viewed bad form even amongst progressive Mormon circles to, like, call out Monson as having dementia. But the reason why I was plugged into that is because I'm cousins with Ezra Tap Benson. And when is Itab Benson was prophet in the final years of Visitor Benson's administration, he had dementia. And the church would like Wheel him out like a Weekend at Bernie's kind of thing where they would prop him up and stick a shovel in his hand and put a helmet on and make it look like he was still leading the church because they didn't want members to know that for several years their prophets here in Revelator literally had dementia. And then one of his sons or grandsons came out, I think it was Steve Benson, and made a big public stink and said, I'm an apostate and my dad or grandpa has not been able to like lead the church. Wipe himself for like years or three together, a coherent sentence. And it was a huge PR nightmare for the church. So that I would have experienced that, then I would have read about it after my mission. And so then when Monson started getting dementia. But no, we never actually had an episode about it. We may have made passing references to it. Yeah, but if you Google, I mean, maybe Jen can do it. If you google Monson and dementia, I bet you'll find articles or references to it because it's a fact. And it was a multi year thing.

Kolby Sorensen [01:08:27] I remember, like just viewing that he was getting older. It's like, yeah, I mean, my famous thing is like, oh, shoot. He's like. I mean, his last general conference, you could tell that he was. He didn't have much strength left. I remember we saw that and we're all kind of sad but not knowing at all that there was way more going on behind the scenes.

Gerardo Sumano [01:08:42] Yeah, some people believe that. I mean, because of that dementia. That's how Russell, Emmon, Nelson and Oaks were able to pass the November 15 policy. They kind of rushed. It didn't go through the whole, like the entire quorum of the 12 because it was kind of messy how the prophet was, you know, like. Yeah, not really leading the church.

John Dehlin [01:09:06] Nelson was able to ram through the November 15 policy because Monson had dementia and wasn't really controlling the ship. That's what allowed that disaster to happen in the first place, right?

Gerardo Sumano [01:09:17] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:09:18] So really quickly, I hope our believing Mormons are patient with our nevermore. I'm sorry, I hope our Mormons and ex Mormon listeners are patient with our never Mormon viewers and listeners because over half of our YouTube viewers have never been Mormon. But KP asks, Is it a lifetime appointment? And that's interesting because on the one hand, the Mormon Church teaches that their prophets are called by God and it's this big deal when a, like a pope, kind of. When a Mormon prophet dies, it's a big deal who the successor is. And for over 100 years. It's literally just been. Whoever has served in the quorum of the 12 the longest, immediately, without any inspiration, without. It's legal legally, who's. Who's ever served in the Quorum of the twelve apostles longest automatically becomes the next president or prophet of the church. And yes, it's a lifetime appointment. There's no making a Mormon apostle or prophet emeritus. So that this is interesting. The. The quorum of the 12 in the First Presidency decided that. That emeritus status or retirement was okay for the general authorities in the first and second quorums of the 70s. So retirement emeritus status was okay for them, but they decided that for. For Mormon prophets and apostles, no retirement. Even if. Even if they get dementia.

Gerardo Sumano [01:10:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:47] Even if they become completely feeble and incapable of leading a hundreds of billions of dollars corporation. It's a lifetime appointment. We've derailed your story successfully.

Kolby Sorensen [01:10:59] No, it's all good. I think it's good to talk about this stuff because not a lot of people know it or like even the thing you just mentioned, the hundreds of billions of dollars. I didn't know about that till way later in my life as well. Thinking that tithing money just always got fully used. It was a really weird thing to learn.

Gerardo Sumano [01:11:15] Yeah. The. Well, and I just wanted to mention, like, that had, like, I think Brigham Young changed it a couple times. It used to be the oldest apostle, not the one that had been on the. On the. On the quorum of the 12 the longest. And then, I mean, throughout the history of the church, it has changed. And also who has more power? And like, at some point, the apostles, you know, had a lot less power than. Than they have now. And anyway, it's all. It's very messy.

John Dehlin [01:11:49] We have one more comment that's worth. I love these live comments, but Raisa Lane writes, I'm. I'm so. I'm an infant member. My flex is. Kolby was literally at my Covid baptism. Now. Now that he's woke. So do you know who Racy is?

Kolby Sorensen [01:12:06] Yeah, I remember. Raisa Lane. Hi. How you doing? I hope you're doing well. Sorry I haven't said anything in a while. I just have avoided self.

John Dehlin [01:12:12] How do you know her?

Kolby Sorensen [01:12:13] I was there at her. Her baptism.

John Dehlin [01:12:15] Were you a missionary?

Kolby Sorensen [01:12:16] Yeah, when I was a missionary, I didn't teach her at all. I literally came in like the day before her baptism.

John Dehlin [01:12:23] And she's watching your Mormon.

Kolby Sorensen [01:12:25] Yeah. Hi.

John Dehlin [01:12:28] How are you doing?

Gerardo Sumano [01:12:29] That's awesome.

John Dehlin [01:12:30] How did she happen. How did she know you were being interviewed? Did you tell her? Or no. Oh, my gosh. So she just happens to be a listener. Viewer.

Kolby Sorensen [01:12:38] Yeah. And I'll talk to you after. Ray, so sorry about. She asked after seeing the video, like, hey, was that you? Are you actually going home? And I at the time didn't want to talk to anyone about it, so I said no. Sorry, I lied. I just was under, like, a lot of emotional stress and, like, talking about it with anyone.

John Dehlin [01:12:54] We'll come back. We'll come back to that.

Kolby Sorensen [01:12:55] Yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [01:12:56] Okay. So Nelson's the prophet. When you're of missionary age, you turn. You graduate from high school. It used to be that you would always go to a year of college at byu. If you were a man, you would go to a year of college, usually at byu. Then while you're at byu, you would turn in your mission papers. You would get called on a mission during your second semester, byu, and then you would usually, you know, go off that summer after your first year. The church was starting to hemorrhage its young people, its missionary force, and it was starting to lose way too many of its men and women between the ages of high school graduation and those first few years after. And so they. And they were losing missionaries in general, so they lowered the age to 18. So you wouldn't have had that year of college.

Gerardo Sumano [01:13:52] No.

John Dehlin [01:13:52] Before you were. It was time for you on a mission.

Kolby Sorensen [01:13:55] A lot of missionaries still take that. And do they? Yeah, I know some. Like one of my. One of my trainers, he did a year of college first before going on his mission.

John Dehlin [01:14:03] And I would say some do. I wouldn't say.

Kolby Sorensen [01:14:05] I want to say. Yeah, I want to say a lot. Some. That's definitely better wording. Some do. Honestly, I recommend it because, one, it gives you more time to learn about stuff. But also, like any missionary I knew who waited at least a year was a lot more mature than any of the other ones out there.

John Dehlin [01:14:20] Well, we covered in a recent episode, number one, that, like, across the Wasatch front, something is as stark as, like, two thirds of young men now are choosing not to serve missions. Two thirds of Mormon men, but also that a third of. Of the missionaries being sent out from Utah are coming home early. Yeah, I don't know if you knew any of that.

Kolby Sorensen [01:14:41] No, I. I could have. I saw that in my own ward, even. I remember before you left. Before I left? Yeah. Like, it was me out of, like, my age group. Only three of us went on missions. One is just about to leave, the other one left at the same time or a little earlier than me. And then I left and all the others just went right.

Gerardo Sumano [01:15:00] How many would there be? The others?

John Dehlin [01:15:03] Yeah. Yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [01:15:04] I think there's probably about six or like just for my specific age group, about seven to eight and so only three. That's three out of eight.

John Dehlin [01:15:13] So less than 50% of the priests maybe.

Kolby Sorensen [01:15:17] It was so crazy to me too.

John Dehlin [01:15:18] Less of. Less than 50% of the priests you would have attended church with ended up serving missions. Is that what you're saying?

Kolby Sorensen [01:15:25] Yeah, like not a lot went in Utah.

John Dehlin [01:15:29] That's crazy.

Kolby Sorensen [01:15:30] Yeah, it's. If you want to see how much stuff is declining, just look at stuff like that. It's apparent.

Gerardo Sumano [01:15:37] It. It is worth mentioning that. That months since. I don't know whose idea was to lower the rate the age but it actually worked for a time. Like there was a boom of missionaries going.

Kolby Sorensen [01:15:49] Sisters, right?

John Dehlin [01:15:50] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:15:50] It had changed when I just. When I went on my mission and. And they had to start opening and bigger MTCs making the Provo MTC larger because yeah, there was a boom of missionaries going. I think a lot of it had to do with. It was seen as a revelation and like, like. And then prophecy becoming true when a lot of missionaries were going and then like oh look, this is a time, you know when. When you should go and look at the prophet. He is foreseeing the times and look

Kolby Sorensen [01:16:20] how inspired he is.

Gerardo Sumano [01:16:21] But it sounds like that has. That is. Has been wearing down and.

Kolby Sorensen [01:16:25] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:16:26] And not. Not having as much impact as it had initially.

John Dehlin [01:16:30] Yeah. I just want to say we're. We're up to 800 live stream viewers. Oh don't tell me on YouTube. On YouTube and Facebook that a really big audience especially we didn't announce this ahead of time. We just like. We just like started live streaming. That's a really big audience. So welcome to all our YouTube and Facebook viewers. We're really glad to have you. Yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [01:16:50] And if there's anyone in there that knows me at any point, like feel free to reach out, talk.

John Dehlin [01:16:56] So sorry, another question. I love these questions. We're just taking our time because truth matters. They fury writes John, where can you find these missions stats? Very interesting. The mission pressure on boys especially was a major reason I raised my son outside the church. So Bay sad news. There are no stats because the Mormon church won't provide any stats. But if you go back a few episodes and maybe Jen or Gerardo can. Can put a link in the comments. But I did a recent episode with a member of a stake high councilman in. In sort of Salt Lake, Utah. County, who is on a stake high council. And he shared with me the stats from his stake, which is a mainstream kind of Utah slash, Salt Lake County Faithful Mormon stake. And it was in the, and he said these statistics, that only a third of the missionaries are now young men, that two thirds of the missionaries are young women, and that 2/3 of the men are staying home and not choosing not to serve missions, and that a third of all missionaries are returning home early. All that comes from this inside source. Yeah, that now, Kolby, you're helping to, to validate.

Kolby Sorensen [01:18:10] It's something I've seen myself and. Yeah, it's crazy stuff.

John Dehlin [01:18:14] Yeah. All right, so now we're, now we're to the point where you decide that you. Whether or not it's a remission. So what made. What went into you and your decision whether or not to serve a mission when you had peers that were deciding not to. What. What was the differentiator?

Deciding to Serve and the Missionary Call Process

Kolby Sorensen [01:18:31] For me, it was that it was never like, ever since, like I said, I was huge into the church as a little kid. It was never a matter of if I'm going on a mission, it was a win. It was something very much that, like, no matter what, any point in my life, it was, this is in the program, this is part of the plan is a two year mission, then I'll come back and do college. And so it wasn't even something I thought about. It was just like something I did because it was like, duh, this is the next step. Like, what other options are there? And it was, it was, yeah, senior year is starting to end. It's like, okay, time to do all this stuff and put in my papers. And that, that was that, like, it wasn't like a. If it was just a win.

John Dehlin [01:19:08] How did you process peers choosing not to serve a mission?

Kolby Sorensen [01:19:12] Um, I don't know. I just kind of saw. I was like, oh, they, like, I already knew them. Kind like, I, I mean, I was in Young Men's with them, so I of course, kind of knew them. I already knew they weren't coming to Young Men's as often. And like, with a couple of them, I knew specifically that they didn't really believe in the church much anymore. And so I just thought I was like, oh, yep, some people will fall away, but some will stay faithful. And we have to stay faithful and help bring them back the weeds from dearth. Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [01:19:38] So do you have a sense now that any of those young men who, who didn't choose to serve missions, why? Or was it just churches? I'LL give you a couple options. Church is boring and irrelevant. Church is not fun. Or stumbled on CES letter podcasts, etc. And decided it wasn't true. Any.

Kolby Sorensen [01:20:00] I wish. I wish I knew the answer to that. I wasn't super close with any of them, so I don't know for sure. I'd say for one of them, I think it was mostly borderman. For the other, I have a suspicion that it was doctrinal stuff. But the other one I'm pretty sure was boredom. But I don't know for sure.

John Dehlin [01:20:15] Okay. But for you, there's just. You had been raised, taught and. Or indoctrinated. Such.

Kolby Sorensen [01:20:21] Indoctrinated. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:20:22] Wasn't even a question.

Kolby Sorensen [01:20:24] Yeah, it wasn't. It was just that I am in fact going to. And that I'm leaving once I'm 18. Like that. That was it. There was no thought process, no pondering. Only thing I prayed about. It was just something like, yeah, no, I'm going to do this. It wasn't asking God, hey, should I? I'm going to. Especially because, like, I was in my patriarchal blessing, like, hey, you're going on a mission, bud.

John Dehlin [01:20:45] And how would you have characterized your testimony at the time of graduating from high school?

Kolby Sorensen [01:20:51] Very strong.

John Dehlin [01:20:53] Had you prayed about it? Did you receive a witness? Did you go to efy? Like, how did you.

Kolby Sorensen [01:20:58] I never went to efy.

John Dehlin [01:20:58] Okay.

Kolby Sorensen [01:21:00] Or Trek. I got out of that.

Gerardo Sumano [01:21:01] Wow.

Kolby Sorensen [01:21:03] I went to Europe and said, but no, it was very strong. Like, I had prayed about it plenty of times, like multiple times. But it was never like a help me know if the church is true. Just like, help me. It was like a thank you for helping me know that the church is true. I don't want to say,

John Dehlin [01:21:23] was there ever like a Heavenly Father, I need to know, is it true or not?

Kolby Sorensen [01:21:26] No, I never had that till much later on my mission when I was losing my faith before. Before then it was just like, thank you for helping me know that this is true. And help, thank. Thank you for giving me this blessing of a testimony.

John Dehlin [01:21:36] How did they convince you that you knew it was true before ever really asking yourself the question?

Kolby Sorensen [01:21:43] I don't know. Cause I think it was. I set up in a way, it's set up in a way that's like, oh, well, kind of that you already know. And so, like, of course I was told to pray about it. But like, I guess in my mindset was that, yeah, I already knew it was true. And so I probably did pray about it at one point, but very Quickly said, yep, it's true. Like, before I even prayed, I would have been pie telling myself that because I just. It was. I think it was on Exmo Lexus where she talked about it was being a Mormon. It wasn't just like a thing you do. It was part of your worldview. It is your worldview. And for me, that's very. That was very much true. That was my perception of the world.

John Dehlin [01:22:19] So it's like the fish swimming in water. The fish isn't aware of the water because it's all the fish knows.

Kolby Sorensen [01:22:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:22:25] You were a Mormon kid growing up in Utah. The Mormon church being true is the only reality.

Kolby Sorensen [01:22:30] You even know it was reality.

Gerardo Sumano [01:22:34] There is this story, and I think the church even made a video out of it. I think it was on General Conference where pretty sure it's Elder Todd Christofferson. He tells this story. And when he. When he received his testimony about the church being true. And he. He says that he goes to Palmyra, I'm pretty sure, where Joseph Smith received the first vision. He goes, kneels, and asks God for a testimony to know if the church was true. And then nothing happened. And then later he just figured, oh, it's because I already knew. I already knew it was true, so I didn't need to receive any confirmation.

John Dehlin [01:23:16] Yeah. Wow. And that. That you relate to that.

Kolby Sorensen [01:23:19] Yeah, I'm pretty sure I was told that story before. It sounds.

Gerardo Sumano [01:23:22] Yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [01:23:22] Like, of course it sounds familiar now, but even like, then I'm pretty sure, like, definitely had heard something or something similar to that. For.

John Dehlin [01:23:28] It's kind of masterful. You. You raise people to adulthood just. Just with that assumption without them even have having to ask themselves the question. They just. They know it before they've even considered it.

Gerardo Sumano [01:23:41] Yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [01:23:41] Which is so. Because, like, I don't know, I like to see myself as someone who likes to look into and research stuff a lot. But for some reason. Yeah. The church sets it up in a great way where it's something that I never even need to have critical thinking about. Like, it's like a duh. Of course this is true. Don't worry or think about it too much because it is like, there's no need to.

John Dehlin [01:24:00] Yeah. We had that. We had somebody say they put more thought or effort into deciding what mattress cover to buy than they ever did. Like, whether. Whether or not the church was true. And this is something that we're going to give 10% of their income and their whole lives to. Yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [01:24:17] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:24:20] Wow. Okay. So you knew it was true. So we want to talk about the applying, to become a missionary process or anything about that.

Kolby Sorensen [01:24:28] Nothing really noteworthy there. Like, it was just a long process of got to go get these vaccines, gotta do the physical, put it in, and then you. It's the waiting period before you get your calling. And like the every. Every good Mormon boy and girl who goes on a mission is that excitement of where am I gonna go? And all the family members guessing and me thinking, like, where is it that I want to go and where would I want to be? I always. I wanted to go foreign speaking because I'm like, I want to learn another language because I thought that would be cool. Yeah, it's just the. It was just seen as like a time of great excitement.

John Dehlin [01:25:04] Now, to be clear, you would have applied what, two, two and a half years ago like this?

Kolby Sorensen [01:25:08] Yeah, it would have been. Yeah. January to March sometime? No, I got my calling, I think, in March, so I think it was like January when I applied.

John Dehlin [01:25:17] So literally two years ago, you were applying for a mission.

Kolby Sorensen [01:25:23] Yeah, lots has changed.

John Dehlin [01:25:28] Okay, so you put in your papers and you got called or did you get caught? And by the way, had Covid happened by the time you put your papers in for your mission?

Kolby Sorensen [01:25:38] I don't think it happened when I put them in, but it happened in between the time of me putting it in and me getting my calling. It was. I think it was somewhere in between that period where like the. The lockdowns and school getting canceled started to happen. I think, like, the school getting canceled and me opening my calling were. I remember those being pretty close together, like, timeline.

John Dehlin [01:25:58] So were you worried it would ruin your mission?

Kolby Sorensen [01:26:02] I don't think so. I think we saw as like, yeah, this might make it so I'm somewhere else for a bit. But of course God's going to provide a way that I can get there as I think kind of the. The viewing consensus of it.

John Dehlin [01:26:12] Yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [01:26:13] And then of course, before. I think before I got mine, we already had heard, like, some people were getting reassignment. So it's kind of just something we expect me to get the calling. And then, of course, a reassignment. Was he reassignment? If it was foreign, was it weird

Gerardo Sumano [01:26:24] for you, like, receiving a calling, knowing that it would. You had been assigned by an apostle and then. And then realizing that you were going to be reassigned is like, couldn't the apostle know that covet was going to happen?

John Dehlin [01:26:37] And because Mormons are taught that that like the prophet. The prophet himself signs. Yeah, Every. Every missionary receives a letter telling them where they're going to be sent. And, and it's always signed by the prophet of the church.

Kolby Sorensen [01:26:51] I think I saw as it was the. I think I was told that is the prophet or one of the apostles

John Dehlin [01:26:55] or one of the apostles. But they're all, they're all known within Mormonism as special witnesses of Christ. So it makes every missionary feel like prophet Jesus himself is deciding. Yeah. Through. Through his apostles where you're going to get sent. Is that what you're saying, Gerardo? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [01:27:11] It's very divine and like, kind of like a divine and mythical. Almost getting this calling. It's like getting literal instructions from God kind of thing as to where you should go is I'd say the general view from people because.

John Dehlin [01:27:24] Yeah, yeah. And some people have more literal views than others. Because Gerardo, I think what you're getting at is if Jesus is. Is calling you to Italy, wouldn't he have known Covid was coming? And would you have felt weird that. That you got. You didn't end up going there first?

Kolby Sorensen [01:27:38] You know, I can't even think of how I rationalized that at the time. I think I just saw that as well. Yeah. God always has his ways and this is all just part of his plan. Kind of thought is probably the best way I could sum it up. Or guess what my thought process was because I didn't really question much even during that time. Wasn't until later that I started thinking.

Gerardo Sumano [01:27:57] That's interesting. Yeah.

The Missionary Training Center Experience

John Dehlin [01:27:59] Okay, so you get your call and then tell us what you want to tell us about going becoming a missionary.

Kolby Sorensen [01:28:05] Yeah. I was called to serve in the Milan, Italy mission. I was assigned to the at home mtc, which was just my loft.

Gerardo Sumano [01:28:12] That's.

Kolby Sorensen [01:28:14] That was a very strange experience doing that at home MTC especially. Cause like, I don't know, you always hear, I think from other people hyping up the MTC and like, oh yeah, it's gonna be so great when you go. And my mindset was very much like I just couldn't wait to get out there. Like I, I was excited about it. I could not wait until I was thrust into the field and got to get right to serving the Lord. And so like, I think I was bummed out about like that kind of feeling. Like it took a little longer because I was at home longer. Not that I didn't want to be my. Around my family more, but just I was like, I was just ready to go and hit the ground running kind of thing.

John Dehlin [01:28:47] And normally you would have spent two months in the MTC probably In the Provo Missionary Training Center. Six. Six weeks in the Provo Missionary Training center in the shadow of byu.

Kolby Sorensen [01:29:01] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:01] But because Covid was happening.

Kolby Sorensen [01:29:04] Yeah. Is at home.

Gerardo Sumano [01:29:06] How was that?

John Dehlin [01:29:07] So you're zooming. You have a mission district and you're zooming with your district and they're, I guess, language instructors that were returned missionaries that would have been teaching you the language over zoom.

Kolby Sorensen [01:29:20] Honestly, even I think my view at the time was that it was a little disappointing because it just felt like school. It felt like going back to school and suddenly having this very similar program and routine of wake up at this time. You got to get ready and then you go to your one class and then there's a break where you study for a bit and then you go to your next class and then the rest of the day. I mean, there's not much you can do because you're set apart. You're set apart as a missionary by this time. And so your options as to what you can. Are allowed to do are kind of up to your stake president, but it's very slim as to what you can do for your free time. It was honestly kind of just the at home MTC was very long for me. The. The only ups from that was like being able to make friends with the other missionaries there and kind of getting to talk and like we could do like a virtual kind of hangout that way. Which was fun.

John Dehlin [01:30:15] Yeah. And, and yeah, the MTC was really fun because you're there with all these missionaries and there's the buzz and there's the cafeteria food and the activities. You. I guess Mormon missionaries would have lost out on a lot of fun and excitement.

Kolby Sorensen [01:30:31] Oh yeah, you always hear all these crazy stories about the MTC and then that just got completely axed out.

John Dehlin [01:30:38] Yeah. But you also probably didn't know totally what you were missing.

Kolby Sorensen [01:30:42] No, not really. It's like, yeah, I heard more about the MTC I think once I got on the fill and other missionaries talk about like, oh yeah, I loved my time in the mtc. I remember doing this or that crazy thing and this crazy thing that happened and being like, oh, I wish I got to do that. Just stayed in the loft, played an instrument and sat around.

Gerardo Sumano [01:31:03] Part of the MCC experience is there's at least one time when you get talk with either the branch president or the MTC president that really try. They try to shame you if you have any past sins that you didn't. You didn't confessed or you haven't totally repented for, and then you and then right after that like big conference that they have where they just pretty much make you feel like awful if you did anything that you didn't confess. And then you have a one on one meeting with your branch, your BRA branch president. And then they ask you specifically, like have you had sex? Did you have anything that you didn't repent before coming? Do you?

John Dehlin [01:31:57] And then they send a bunch of missionaries home if they admit that they lied.

Gerardo Sumano [01:32:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:32:01] About sexual transgression, you know, to. To be able to get on their mission.

Gerardo Sumano [01:32:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:32:06] And so it's a big pressure cooker.

Gerardo Sumano [01:32:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:32:08] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:32:09] Was that. But how did they figure out a way to do that in online mtc? Or was that not part of your experience at all?

Kolby Sorensen [01:32:18] From what I remember, I think they did do kind of that. I think they did like a lot more passive approach as well. I don't remember being so much of a grilling, but being a more as like, look, you're about to serve the Lord, so if you have anything you need to talk about or repent of, go to you. I think it was like a go to your bishop or stake president was what it was because I mean there's. It would have been a pain to make the branch presidents do one on one interviews over zoom all day. I don't think anyone wants to do that. So I think it was just like if you have any of the stuff that you haven't resolved yet, then go to your bishop or stake president. I don't remember which one.

Gerardo Sumano [01:32:48] They said it was a lot softer than what my experience would have been.

John Dehlin [01:32:54] We have a question from KP on YouTube. Are you given companions in Zoom MTC?

Gerardo Sumano [01:33:01] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:33:02] And how does that work if you don't live together?

Kolby Sorensen [01:33:05] Basically what it was is that part of our. One of the things we had to do as part of our schedule was companion study, comp study. And so that we were supposed to do a call with just us at some point during the day for I think it's just like 30 minutes is what comp study was. But to do a call with them at some point and to study with them like that and then like you kind of buddy with them for different like activities they would do over zoom. Like they do breakout rooms where they just put you in separate rooms. And a lot of times you'd be with your companion or with sometimes with other people. But it was kind of just like they were your kind of study buddy.

John Dehlin [01:33:36] Okay, cool. All right. So overall, was it hard to learn the language? Was it fun? Was it boring? Did you Hate it. Was it six weeks?

Kolby Sorensen [01:33:47] Six weeks. I saw it as kind of fun, but also, like, it didn't really feel like learning the language. It kind of felt like relearning, but a lot of it was kind of focused on relearning stuff, like the basics of what you already knew about the gospel and then like, you'd sprinkle in, like, how the language works with that. And I kind of just at that point realized, like, oh, I'm not really learning the language. I'm learning the. Excuse me.

John Dehlin [01:34:12] Discussions.

Kolby Sorensen [01:34:13] Yeah, the discuss. You're learning the manuals. The discussions. And like, you're learning gospel language. You're learning church language, not the actual language. But I still thought it was fun. Like, I liked learning how different stuff worked. Even when I struggled. I thought I like challenges.

John Dehlin [01:34:27] Was it Preach My Gospel? Was that still the manual?

Kolby Sorensen [01:34:30] Yeah, Preach My Gospel from what I think it still is now as well as. Yeah, Preach My Gospel.

Gerardo Sumano [01:34:34] Yeah. It would have been edited by that by then. It would have included the references to the different First Vision accounts and a couple other stuff that they include a few. A couple links to the gospel topic essays. Right.

Kolby Sorensen [01:34:49] And I. The one I didn't even know about that till later as well, because in the mtc, I had a. Older.

Gerardo Sumano [01:34:54] Oh, the older version.

Kolby Sorensen [01:34:56] The older version and all the. From what I know, all the ones that are in English are still basically the older version and don't have that updated stuff in it. From what I know, like, I know the. The Italian one at least is still more like the. The original one, not the. The revised edition that's come out.

Gerardo Sumano [01:35:13] Did you find out about the First Vision accounts when you were reading Preach My Gospel at some point in the MTC or.

Kolby Sorensen [01:35:19] Again, I think it was like something that was just like it was mentioned, but just kind of. Yeah, it was very much just like glossed over.

Gerardo Sumano [01:35:24] Right. Like you read it, it just says the quote is. Instead of saying like, this is what Joseph Smith said about his experience, it says this is one of the accounts on what Joseph Smith said about his experience. So it just adds a little reference.

Kolby Sorensen [01:35:40] Yeah, it's said in a way. So it's like, oh, there are others. But if you don't know that there are others, you just read that as like. Well, yeah, of course. Like, he told it multiple times. But you wouldn't think there's.

John Dehlin [01:35:49] That they're contradicting slight variation.

Kolby Sorensen [01:35:52] Yeah, you wouldn't think there's different contradicting accounts.

John Dehlin [01:35:56] So Ryan, a nevermormon, Ryan King asks how well, is the language learned enough to really connect with people once you arrive in the country?

Kolby Sorensen [01:36:07] Not at all. It's. You're learning to teach. You're not like, once you're out in the field, a lot will get more passionate about it and you're having courage to. To like really be able to learn to connect with them. But in the mtc, it's very much teaching you, like, hi, this is my name. I'm a missionary. Where's the bathroom? And then how to like pray and different. Like, like, just like how to teach the lessons, basically.

John Dehlin [01:36:32] How to pray in the language. How to say words like Heavenly Father and Jesus and Joseph Smith and. And how to teach. Yeah. How to. It's just how to describe Joseph's first vision. How to say things like alcohol, bad tobacco, bad premarital sex, bad law of chastity. Tithing. Learn the word tithing, right? Yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [01:36:56] I don't remember what the word for tithing is now, but die in Spanish. That's probably something. I think it's something pretty similar. They're all related.

John Dehlin [01:37:03] I learned that word.

Gerardo Sumano [01:37:06] Yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [01:37:06] Really important for you to remember that one.

John Dehlin [01:37:09] Temples, temple, marriage. You know that. That

Gerardo Sumano [01:37:13] on your outline you mentioned about trying to become the best missionary you could and trying to find out about what the anti Mormons.

Kolby Sorensen [01:37:21] Yeah. Said.

John Dehlin [01:37:22] Was that mtc?

Kolby Sorensen [01:37:23] Yeah, this was in the mtc. I very much always, like I think I mentioned earlier, I'm the oldest of three brothers and so I have three younger brothers and the oldest. And I always, I guess older sibling complex where it's like you got to be the example and you have to be prepared for stuff. And that was always something like that I put as a burden on myself. And so when it came to this, I was like, okay, I want to. Well, of course, like, I loved being a missionary. I already loved being a missionary in the mtc. And I wanted to be able to serve God as well as I could. And I wanted to be as prepared to answer any questions as I could. And so I was like, well, the only, obviously the only way to know like, what the opposing questions are is to find out what they are. They're not just going to suddenly appear in my head. I'm going to have to actually look into that. And of course I can learn the answers to it because, like, there's obviously got to be answers perfectly worded by the church. And so, yeah, that led me to a little bit of Googling. And you guys want me just.

John Dehlin [01:38:18] In the mtc.

Kolby Sorensen [01:38:19] In the mtc.

John Dehlin [01:38:19] Okay, so you.

Gerardo Sumano [01:38:20] When he was at home.

Kolby Sorensen [01:38:21] So at home.

John Dehlin [01:38:22] Oh, oh. Before that, I was going to say, what's it like being like. The rules of a missionary are really strict. You can't watch tv, you can't go to the movies. You can't read the newspaper. You can't date. You can't even hang out with your friends. You can't be alone. How did they enforce those rules while you're home? Living at home?

Kolby Sorensen [01:38:45] That's way different. That was a very much like it was up to your stake president what your rules were. So I knew some missionaries who, like, their stake president was like, yeah, you can go out with your friends, long as one of them is also, like a priest, like 18 years or older, I think. Or if there's another potential missionary there, or like, I could go out in public with a. If I'm with my parents, certain stake presidents would allow me, like, yeah, go ahead. If you're like, watching Disney movies with your family, you can. One missionary even got permission to swim at his pool because he lived in Arizona.

Gerardo Sumano [01:39:12] Wow.

Kolby Sorensen [01:39:14] It was like a very much like, the rules are at the discretion of your stake president because it was the cast as like, look, your stake president's your leader. He's like your de facto mission president.

Gerardo Sumano [01:39:21] Yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [01:39:22] For now. So look to him for the severity of these rules.

John Dehlin [01:39:25] So if you went. If you went to out to eat with your family for dinner, would you dress as a missionary?

Kolby Sorensen [01:39:32] You still needed to be dressed as a missionary with your tag on.

John Dehlin [01:39:35] Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [01:39:35] Wow.

Kolby Sorensen [01:39:36] That was a very, like, strict thing. You got to make sure you're wearing your tag at all times.

John Dehlin [01:39:41] Okay, interesting. And so your family's kind of looking over you to make sure you're living the rules kind of policing.

Kolby Sorensen [01:39:49] They're your assistants to the president.

John Dehlin [01:39:51] Okay.

Kolby Sorensen [01:39:54] All right.

John Dehlin [01:39:54] Yeah. So you. You start. So your cracks in your Mormon testimony or faith or at least questions get introduced while you're in home MTC as a missionary. Yeah, take us through that.

Early Doubts and Stumbling onto the CES Letter

Kolby Sorensen [01:40:07] Yeah. Because I didn't even see it as like, oh, I'm searching questions, or even I had doubts. It was very much just like, I want to be able to know how to resolve other people's doubts. Because, like, that's something I assumed I'd come across. And, you know, I was here. People talk about like, oh, yeah, we ran to these mean anti Mormons, but then we spit straight doctrinal facts onto them. And so I was like, okay, well, I gotta be prepared and know the answers to stuff like that. And so I started with the only thing I really knew could even be a concern to start with, which was the Book of Abraham. That was the only thing I ever had even heard there were concerns with. So I did a. I don't even remember what I searched, but something about the Book of Abraham. And lo and behold, it came to pass that I found the CES letter. And it would be very dishonest for me to say. I read it, I didn't even skim it. I think I just read very, very, very lightly the Book of Abraham section. And of course as I'm reading it, I'm like, oh, well, you're wrong. Because it was just a catalyst. It could have just been a catalyst for the translation and like, stuff like that. And I think I was kind of like a little bit like, okay, there is something kind of weird. But I watched Dan Peterson's video. I think it's the. I don't remember what it was. It was the one where he talks about the CS letter and I watched the portion where he addresses the Book of Abraham. And for me at the time it was like, yeah, that. Alright, good enough. That's it. And I didn't like, I kind of looked at one or two other things. Like I think it was like the temple and freemasonry. But then my mom found out I was googling stuff like that. I was like, look, you got to stop the. I was given like the doubt your doubt before you doubt your faith quote. Which at the time, of course I thought, oh yeah, that's amazing. And so for me, it very much was a. I put all that on the shelf. I didn't even see it as a concern. I just kind of doubled down in my testimony. Like it wasn't at the time, I didn't see it as any fracture at all. But looking back, I'd have to say that I was kidding myself. Like I was trying to convince myself that it wasn't a worry.

Gerardo Sumano [01:42:07] It's still, I mean, it's still quite an experience when you're doing. I mean, it was for me because it was pretty similar for me being on my mission. And then I googled it. Something about the Book of Abraham. Like, I remember my heart was pounding. I was super nervous. I was reading it and I was feeling like my world was like completely being destroyed. And it was just. It was pretty awful. But at the same time, like you're saying you try to convince yourself like, no, I have a strong enough testimony. This is not affecting me. But it's. It's just so interesting how it's almost like, if you were. For me, it was almost like if I was watching porn on my mission, you know, like that same feeling of, like, I felt so guilty of looking at something that might make me question my faith.

Kolby Sorensen [01:42:57] Yeah. No, I remember, like, you mentioned, like, the heart pounding. I very much. I can. I can put myself in those shoes of even that first time just feeling nervous because it was a. It's like a taboo thing to do. It's something you're trained, I think trains the right word trained to not do. And so doing it, it was like really nervous, like, heart pounding kind of thing. And then afterwards, I remember that was like the first time I. I think I prayed and said, God, please help me remember that the church is true was like my wording. It wasn't even if it was just to remember that the church is true and, like, cast these doubts aside. And then that's what I did. Yeah, for now.

Gerardo Sumano [01:43:31] Which is interesting because when, like today, if I Google anything about, you know, like, just anything I want to know, I wouldn't get that feeling of, you know, like, heart pounding and anxious and stressed.

John Dehlin [01:43:44] Well, no, there was an Instagram thing that happened this week where a believing Mormon DM to me on Instagram. And like, I. I tried watching a Mormon stories and I got a dark feeling. And I found you, John. John. I found you to be a dark, unhappy, miserable creature. And people just don't. People don't understand confirmation bias.

Kolby Sorensen [01:44:08] That's what you're trained to think as well. Because I Remember in my YouTube section, because I googled, Just because I googled Dan Peterson's response and like, to the CS letter, some of your videos came up and my mom saw that. I was like, don't watch it. It's just a bunch of bitter, dark people. And like, I even, like, watch a clip of one before that too. I'm like, yeah, you're right. He looked so mad and angry. There's just like the. Very much that. Just immediately believing that view of it and not thinking that there's anything more to their stories. And, like, I feel so bad immediately. Just, like, not seeing any value because, like, my mom, it was like, very much the. It's just people who had bad experiences and now trying to spread that online. And that doesn't make the church not true. And realizing that there's so much more to that and just that those. All those experiences, like, deserve validation and shouldn't be cast aside at all.

John Dehlin [01:44:55] It's probably worth calling out just the bite model. We talk about it a lot, but they can, you know, high demand religions or cults control your behavior. They control the information that you can take in so that you won't have the thoughts about whether or not the church is true. And then emotion, they. They make sure to condition you such that you feel heart palpitations and panic and sweats when you just, like, start reading a PDF file.

Gerardo Sumano [01:45:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:45:21] Or why to stumble on a little TikTok video. You start feeling like. Comparable to like a lion is about to jump out of the bush and attack you. Yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [01:45:30] You start feeling Satan's about to jump up and grab you. And it's like. It's hard because, like, looking back, it's like, it's so obvious to me, the blatant truth that, like, it's just. It's about power and control. That's what it's about. And it makes me so mad that people don't know that. That they try to hide it still and that I'm. I don't know. I beat myself up. So I'm like, how did I not realize that stuff? I have to, of course, tell myself. It's like, there's no way I could have. I was conditioned to. I was conditioned and taught to not see the world or see my perception of the world that way at all. I had no tools to be able to see anything differently.

John Dehlin [01:46:05] Yeah. Cry crocodile tears for the kid that figured it out at 18 or 19. We're all those of us who figured it out at 30 or 40 or 50. We're having a hard time feeling super sympathetic for you.

Kolby Sorensen [01:46:17] No.

John Dehlin [01:46:18] Which is. Or actually, you deserve a lot of respect. But we'll. We'll get there. We're getting ahead of us.

Kolby Sorensen [01:46:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:46:26] All right, so. So you. You have some initial questions. You actually stumble on the CES letter while you're in the zoom mtc. Right. But you. You turn it off.

Kolby Sorensen [01:46:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:46:37] It was basically doubt your doubts, shut it down.

Kolby Sorensen [01:46:39] Yeah, it was kind of just. It was. Yep. Doubt your doubts, push it out of your mind and just. I doubled down, like I said. Like, I was very much just like, hey, we're getting right back into this form believing. I think I, like, started studying double that amount and started praying, like, double that amount as well because, like, oh, that might have been why. Maybe I wasn't studying or praying enough. And that's why these temptations started to enter my mind. So just that typical mindset.

John Dehlin [01:47:08] Yeah. All right, so how did your mission proceed?

Reassignment to Tacoma and Temple Endowment

Kolby Sorensen [01:47:12] Went on for a bit. Eventually, of course, I learned that I was getting reassigned. I was reassigned to Washington, Tacoma. Which I was okay with. Like, a lot of people. Like, oh, how are you not disappointed? You're not going to Italy, you're just going to Washington. I'm like, eh, Washington's cool. I think it'd be a fun place to go. So I was still excited. I was like, look, it doesn't matter. Like, I'm serving the Lord. That's what matters. It's not the. It's not the where. It's the fact that you're doing it. And so I remember just the excitement of the last couple days of packing up my bags, double triple checking to make sure I have everything because I was terrified of forgetting something that I would need.

John Dehlin [01:47:47] And then take the six weeks Italian.

Kolby Sorensen [01:47:50] Six weeks Italian.

John Dehlin [01:47:51] Then you go, not Italian speaking. Tacoma, English speaking.

Kolby Sorensen [01:47:54] English speaking. But you're encouraged to, like, still study your language every day. Which I loved. Like, I think it was like, good. Like our mission president, like, yep, give yourself an hour to study every day still. Okay. It was like, encouraging for the time is like, where you're like. Because some people had stories of like, where their mission president was trying to get them to forget at all that they were reassigned anywhere and make that feel, like, not valid at all. Be like, look, that's no longer your mission. Not something you should think about at all. Just focus on here. And that was not like the mindset my mission present. I was like, look, you're given this calling, you're still eventually going to get there somehow use it. So still study. Which I thought that was good because it just made that feel more valid. Like, yeah, it was. I think made it a lot healthier.

John Dehlin [01:48:35] But I remember, I remember being really upset that during COVID a global pandemic, the Mormon Church was sending missionaries out to proselyte, putting them potentially in harm's way versus. And that. I'm not trying to interject that other than to say, what was it like for you to be sent out into the world in the. In the beginnings of what became a really severe pandemic. This is pre masks, right?

Kolby Sorensen [01:49:03] Yeah, no, no masks. This is masks mask. By the time I was going out, masks. Masks were required. And so I was going into Washington, which was already like a very, like, locked. Not very. It was a little more open by that point, but still pretty locked out. I got there like August. And so it was. If you're going out in public, you have to wear masks. We couldn't knock at all. We could only go to people's like, when I got there, they just barely could Start going to people's houses if they were invited kind of thing. And it was still. And you still to wear your masks inside, I think. Unless they told you you don't have to. I don't remember exactly, but I remember. Yeah. Being on the plane, I was super pumped to go and to get there. My view of that, I guess it was just like, no one hollowed hand can stop the work from progressing. So, like, why would a pandemic stop the missionary work? Nothing can.

John Dehlin [01:49:48] Did you feel like God would keep. Would protect you from getting sick?

Kolby Sorensen [01:49:53] Yeah. No. It was like, I didn't see it as, like, oh, I would be invincible. But I knew that my mindset was, yeah, he. Of course he's going to protect and watch out for me, you know, as long as I'm being faithful.

John Dehlin [01:50:03] Yeah. And that the church had your best interests at heart.

Gerardo Sumano [01:50:06] Oh, you know what? We skipped his temple experience.

Kolby Sorensen [01:50:09] Oh.

John Dehlin [01:50:10] Oh, yeah, yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [01:50:11] Let's actually definitely talk about that. I almost forgot.

John Dehlin [01:50:13] Okay. Yeah. So Mormon missionaries, before you go into the mtc, after you get your mission call, you go through. The endowment ceremony in the temple was

Kolby Sorensen [01:50:23] the very last week before I left to Washington because temple just barely opened back up. I was like, in the day before.

John Dehlin [01:50:30] Oh, wait, so it was after you were almost done with your Zoom mtc?

Kolby Sorensen [01:50:36] Like last week of Zoom mtc, The Saturday before I left through.

John Dehlin [01:50:40] Okay.

Kolby Sorensen [01:50:41] And for me, I'd say the experience.

John Dehlin [01:50:45] Jordan River Temple.

Kolby Sorensen [01:50:46] No, that one was even open yet. It was Mount Timpanogos.

Gerardo Sumano [01:50:52] Okay.

Kolby Sorensen [01:50:52] I think it was a different one that was, like, farther away because, like, a tons weren't open. We almost went to Cedar City because that was one that was open and all the other ones were full. But for me, the experience, I'd have to say, was underwhelming, actually, because, like, anyone I talked to, especially I was in the mtc, it was like they were hyping it up. Like, oh, you just wait till you go through the temple and how much you'll learn. It's. And even this nice older lady. She's awesome. But it was like, you don't have to try to take everything in at once, because it's a lot, but it's all very important knowledge that God will bless you with. And I know you'll try to learn it all at once, but just take your time. So I was like, very much. My mindset was like, I'm gonna learn some crazy stuff going on in here, like, the truths of heaven shall be revealed. I was pumped. And then I go through, and I'M like I already knew this. Yeah. Adam and Eve are the father of all of a father, mother of all of us. He was the first prophet. And then you learn a couple funky handshakes and like I thought, I don't think I thought that was weird. I'm like, oh, okay, this is like neat I guess. But I was just like it was hard for me to find it weird because I was just expecting so much more that I'd have to say like I was disappointed and like wanting to learn more.

Gerardo Sumano [01:52:03] Yeah. You were expecting it to be way more interesting or.

Kolby Sorensen [01:52:07] Yeah, because different. The way it was portrayed to me was that you'd be learning something new

John Dehlin [01:52:12] and like the Lord's university is the temple.

Kolby Sorensen [01:52:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:52:15] Yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [01:52:15] And it, it wasn't.

John Dehlin [01:52:17] It's like warmed over Old Testament Bible stuff. Creation, Adam and Eve, garde of Eden myth.

Kolby Sorensen [01:52:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:52:24] Basically a really quick. I have to ask you this. And some, some won't know this history but for, for decades there were these. Well, much viewed movies that were shown in the temple. And then the church decides they want to remake a super modern version in the mid 2000 teens. So they hire an Academy Award winning director named Sterling Van Wagenen who also was the co founder of Sun Sundance Film Festival to produce new movies for the temple. Unfortunately they, you know, he, he had a history of being a child molester and they knew that, but they hired him anyway and then they released these new and improved exciting temple videos. And they would have been around 2013.

Kolby Sorensen [01:53:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:53:15] 2014. So it would have been before you went through. But then Sean Escobar comes out of the New York Times and tells the world that he was sexually molested by this Sterling Von Wagner guy who was the, you know, who the church had tapped and they knew he had done it. So the church had to get rid of those brand new movies and go to like I heard it was like PowerPoint slides. Like what was the visual that you would have experienced? I didn't know that. Yeah, they, they had to scrap the. They couldn't keep temple videos that were created by a child molester, a known child molester that they knew they had disfellowshipped him. So they had known he was a child molester but they tried to keep it under wraps because he was world famous and a good, I guess a really good movie director. Anyway, they had to scrap those. Once the New York Times article came out, they had to scrap those movies. Wow. And then they had to come up with just some quick alternative because you can't cast and Direct an entire new.

Gerardo Sumano [01:54:18] I mean, they could have shown the old ones.

John Dehlin [01:54:20] Yeah, but. But I guess there were changes. There were the changes about, like, the veil and the woman hearkening. And by that point, they had made progressive changes to some of the feminism stuff and other things, so they couldn't go back. So they had to create something. So what were the visuals when you went through?

Kolby Sorensen [01:54:39] It was a PowerPoint slideshow. For reference. I got the Satan with hair, not the bald one.

John Dehlin [01:54:46] They were PowerPoints.

Kolby Sorensen [01:54:47] They were basically a PowerPoint. Like, it was like a slideshow. Like, it was just like. It would flash, and it'd be like, Satan stuck with this pose, and he would give his whole monologue and it flash to Eve. Of course, you hint that she's naked, but you get to see shoulders. Like the army crazy. They get to see shoulders in the temple, honestly. Yeah, but just. It gives her. And then she's monologuing. There'll be like a flash of something else, and it monologues. And they'll go up and be like, okay, here's one of the signs you do with your hands and the handshake and all that it means. And then it go back to the slideshow.

John Dehlin [01:55:17] That would make it extra underwhelming, awkward,

Kolby Sorensen [01:55:20] honestly, like, yeah, it just felt really weird.

John Dehlin [01:55:26] And I still don't know if they've. If they've got movies now or if they're still slideshows. Like, right now, I don't. I. They don't let me in. So I don't know if they've got movies now or if there's still slideshows.

Gerardo Sumano [01:55:37] One of our listeners knows they can tell us on the comments.

John Dehlin [01:55:41] I'm sure someone's going to tell us in, like, 10 seconds.

Gerardo Sumano [01:55:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:55:44] Okay, so you were underwhelmed. Were you disturbed at all?

Kolby Sorensen [01:55:47] No, because I think it was just, like, I didn't have any mental space to be disturbed because it was just. I was just solely focused on how underwhelmed I was and just being like, oh, I kind of wanted more where I just didn't even think about, hey, these are kind of. Kind of really weird. And wait, I might be in a cult. Like, I never had that thought, okay? But I know a lot of people have, and I totally get it, because now, like, thinking about it, yeah, it's. It's weird.

John Dehlin [01:56:14] Jess writes it's still slideshows. So I'm. I'm pretty sure they're working on new movies that aren't directed by a child molester, but they're not yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:56:25] Wow.

John Dehlin [01:56:26] Yeah. Okay, so anything else about. Anything else about the temple?

Kolby Sorensen [01:56:32] No, not really.

John Dehlin [01:56:33] Okay. Like, not the peak spiritual.

Kolby Sorensen [01:56:36] No. It wasn't like, it was hyped up to be this crazy spiritual experiment experience. And for me, it just kind of wasn't because it was. It was overhyped for me, so it was just kind of a dud.

John Dehlin [01:56:48] Okay.

Kolby Sorensen [01:56:49] Yeah.

Mission Life, Social Dynamics, and Digital Rules

John Dehlin [01:56:50] All right. So then you go to Tacoma.

Kolby Sorensen [01:56:52] Tacoma, Yeah. I touched down and got assigned to my two trainers. Two dads, as they would call them. Both super awesome guys. I like them a lot, even to this day. Like, they were really cool. But I remember getting there, and honestly, the hardest thing for me was that I didn't feel like I fit in anywhere because, like, even before I stopped believing, I still fully believed at the time. But I very much just saw the mission. I was like, it was a clique. It was the high school popular kid sitting at a table talking, and that's not at all who I ever was. And so I felt kind of like a black sheep and an outcast in that way where I just didn't feel like I fit in as much with the other missionaries. I felt kind of like on the outskirts, especially being a reassigned missionary, even though my trainer was reassigned, one of my trainers was reassigned. But I just kind of felt like out on the outskirts, I didn't feel like I was as popular or as cool or funny as them. And then I also, like, was totally beating myself up because I was like, I don't know how to teach worth crap. I don't know what I'm doing. Like, I was beating myself up over every little thing.

John Dehlin [01:58:00] Because you learned to do the discussions in Italian.

Kolby Sorensen [01:58:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:58:04] And now you're all of a sudden having to teach them in English.

Kolby Sorensen [01:58:06] Yeah. And teaching. Like, I just didn't understand how to do it or how to teach. And my. One of my trainers and the other missionary we were doing with honestly weren't great at helping with that because they were just really hypercritical. And so I got even more stressed about doing it to, like, I'd freak out about saying even one little thing wrong. And it was, like, kind of awful. I felt like I was never going to be able to properly teach or help anyone. I didn't feel like I fit in with the other missionaries. Or I had, like, one other missionary who I considered a friend, and that was about it, which was really rough.

John Dehlin [01:58:40] What were the traits of the popular missionaries? How would you characterize them? Were they wealthy? Were they handsome? Were they from wealthy, rich Mormon families? Like, what did you have to do to be on the inner clique?

Kolby Sorensen [01:58:53] The inner. I think just like, I'd say same as high school. Like any clique with high school, it's like they're kind of the charismatic. They're. They're athletic. Like, I'm not. Not athletic, but I don't love athletics either. And it was like, I'm not. I don't consider myself very, like, charismatic or like, talking in front of a crowd like that. And I never liked being a part of, like, a popular kid kind of group. And so for me, I just didn't even want to start to associate with it, especially when it came to leadership, because leadership was like the clique within the clique. Like, they're the extra cool kids because they're chosen by the president to be over you, so they got to be extra righteous as well.

Gerardo Sumano [01:59:31] This is very interesting because when John, when you went on your mission, the church would have this model of learned by memory lessons, right?

John Dehlin [01:59:42] No, no, no, I'm not that old. Yeah, it was, it was a. Maybe a decade before me. You memorized these.

Gerardo Sumano [01:59:50] You went Preach My Gospel.

John Dehlin [01:59:51] I was, I was the predecessor to Preach My Gospel, but. But definitely you had flip charts and you learned six discussions, but you definitely learned to say it in your own words.

Gerardo Sumano [02:00:02] Okay, okay. And. But Preach My Gospel became a lot more. A lot more open where, like, you can teach whatever you want. You can start with lesson 1, 2, 3, or 4. There's. There's not a set standard on how to approach people. I mean, there's some suggestions. So it's definitely. I can tell. I can definitely see how the more charismatic missionaries are the ones that are the most successful because it's, it's the way you talk, the way you present the information, and the way you teach people that gives you the success is not so much like it used to be before, where like the, the church would give you more like a. Like a script that you were.

John Dehlin [02:00:43] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:00:44] Supposed to give in a certain order and how to approach people. It was.

John Dehlin [02:00:47] That's more for like the super old people, like Radio Free Mormon who just joined us and, and said. Gerardo. He just said, hey, Gerardo in the comments. Yeah, I'm not. I'm old, but I'm not super old. Like Radio Free Mormon. He's freaking dinosaur.

Kolby Sorensen [02:01:02] You're.

Gerardo Sumano [02:01:03] You're the same age as my mom, and my mom was. Was learned by heart.

John Dehlin [02:01:07] Oh, I'm 52.

Gerardo Sumano [02:01:10] Yeah, you're the same month.

John Dehlin [02:01:12] Well, okay. Well, all right. Anyway, love you. Rfm. Okay. So you didn't feel great in Tacoma?

Kolby Sorensen [02:01:22] No, I felt. Yeah, I guess like a. Like, oh, real quick.

Gerardo Sumano [02:01:26] The.

Kolby Sorensen [02:01:26] Yeah. Preach My gospel is very much like a free flow, free form kind of set up for how to teach. And I just felt like I wasn't learning at all still, like any of the different points of the lessons because you still had to hit those. And I feel like I just felt inadequate in every way imaginable and, like, that I wasn't going to be able to do good enough. And of course I got my mind. I'm like, how am I ever gonna serve the Lord if I can't even figure out how to teach the first lesson? Which is stuff that I know, but I just suck and I'm horrible at doing it. And I. Yeah, I'd honestly, look, looking back, I mostly blame on one of the other missionaries because he was just like a. He was very hypercritical of a lot of people. I think some of it was that he just wasn't having a good time on his mission, which he's open about. And I think he took that out on other people. But. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:02:13] How long were you in Tacoma?

Kolby Sorensen [02:02:15] I was in Tacoma from August to like, June. Ish.

John Dehlin [02:02:26] It's like about, so 10. 10 months.

Kolby Sorensen [02:02:29] 10 months. That sounds about right. No, I hit my. Yeah, I hit my year mark in Tacoma or like, where would be my year mark based off of when I started the mtc.

John Dehlin [02:02:39] Okay, so you almost did a full year.

Kolby Sorensen [02:02:42] You know, I did, I did, I did. Like, I was there until June or July, actually. Sorry. I have a hard time remembering all this stuff. The mission time blends together because you're not supposed to think about time at all. You're just there serving the Lord.

Gerardo Sumano [02:02:52] Yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [02:02:53] So forgive me if I have a hard time remembering. It's a blur.

John Dehlin [02:02:58] You're just trying to last, try to survive.

Kolby Sorensen [02:03:00] No. Yeah, I eventually got to that mindset. Very much of it was just survival mode.

Gerardo Sumano [02:03:06] How would you find people to teach?

Kolby Sorensen [02:03:09] At the very beginning, it was through good old Facebook. The. When I first got there, the way that they said to do it was to find groups in your local area or things that you're interested in and go into those and just try to message people and bring up the gospel to them. And that was the first method. And eventually it developed more into, okay, try to message them first and become more of their friend and then transition to the gospel. And then it got.

Gerardo Sumano [02:03:39] Did it work?

Kolby Sorensen [02:03:41] Sometimes I'd say it's about as effective as knocking, though, where it's

Gerardo Sumano [02:03:46] one every Few dozens.

Kolby Sorensen [02:03:49] Yeah. They actually gave us. It was crazy. I wish I remembered or could find my notes on it. But they gave us the stats of how often someone would answer the door. And it's like one in every. Or not how many. Often they'd answer. But how many people. Like, if you knock like 100 doors, one person will accept you in for a lesson. And they like, actually telling us those numbers is really interesting. I'd say it's about the same with Facebook. Whereas it's like a 1 in 100 would actually agree to do like even the first one of the first lessons with you.

John Dehlin [02:04:14] And eventually, how did you approach someone on Facebook? How would that even work?

Kolby Sorensen [02:04:18] It depended, like, it evolved over time. They were very much like, when I got there, it was in.

Gerardo Sumano [02:04:22] So let's do part one. Because. Because this church is trying to figure this out as Covid is happening.

Kolby Sorensen [02:04:27] Are figuring it out.

Gerardo Sumano [02:04:28] Yeah, sorry, I have this question. So who was giving the instructions on how you were. Was it the mission president? Was it a. Was there like an like special offices at the church headquarters who were coming up with this stuff?

Kolby Sorensen [02:04:44] From what I know and understand, it came from like the area president. I think they did have like some special social media coordinators along with the area president who would pass it to the mission president, who would then disperse it to his own leaders, dispersed to district leaders, and dispersed to everyone.

Gerardo Sumano [02:04:58] Okay.

Kolby Sorensen [02:04:59] So it was like a top down kind of method for sure.

Gerardo Sumano [02:05:01] It.

Kolby Sorensen [02:05:02] I think one time they mentioned that, like, apparently that the prophets and apostles were helping somewhat with this process and with the ideas of it. I believe I heard that once. Yeah, that's. Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:05:14] Okay, so. So phase one was like, friend, go to groups on Facebook where you can find, you know, like, if you're interested about cars, go join a car group and friend a lot of people.

Kolby Sorensen [02:05:28] Just message them. Oh, just like right out the gate, message them. Be like, hey, would you like a message about Christmas?

John Dehlin [02:05:35] And sometimes Facebook filters those messages. If you don't have a relationship or some connection, they stick it in a filter where the person never sees.

Kolby Sorensen [02:05:43] And they learned that. And eventually that's why they developed in that you're trying to friend them. But at first it was very much you join the group, because a lot of times if you're in the group, it'll still let it go.

John Dehlin [02:05:51] Okay.

Kolby Sorensen [02:05:51] Which is why I think they. They had the group method.

John Dehlin [02:05:54] Phase two was so you would just DM people.

Gerardo Sumano [02:05:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:05:57] And you'd say less than one out of 100 would want to. Would you say, hey, I just want to teach you about Jesus.

Kolby Sorensen [02:06:02] Yeah. And you'd get maybe like one response. You'd get, okay, you do get like three responses. One person would have a sassy comeback. One person would say, no, thank you. And one person would say, like, maybe. But then they'd learn that, oh, you're actually lds. LDS means Mormon. And never mind. There's so many people who like, okay,

Gerardo Sumano [02:06:21] this is really important because is this time. This is a time when the church is encouraging missionaries to create groups. I don't know if you were part of this, but they were starting to create groups. I know my sister. It was very confusing because my sister was on the mission at this time, and it started to be like, okay, as companionship on my area, let's create a Facebook group. And usually they would be called. Or they're still called, like, Benita Cristo or Come unto Christ in Magna, Utah. Come unto Christ in Washington, whatever.

Kolby Sorensen [02:06:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:06:57] And.

Gerardo Sumano [02:06:58] And then. And then people from the war, you're supposed to tell them to join those groups, you know, and that's kind of where you post things and you direct people that you friend to. Right?

Kolby Sorensen [02:07:11] Yeah, yeah. No, that's. Yeah, that's definitely accurate.

Gerardo Sumano [02:07:13] And then it was. There's definitely this. This explicit or implicit instruction of living, leaving out any reference to the Book of Mormon. Like a lot of, like, don't mention the Book of Mormon too much. Don't mention the word Mormon. Definitely don't do that.

Kolby Sorensen [02:07:31] Yeah. Was left out a lot. And I.

Gerardo Sumano [02:07:33] And. And it gives. Like, if you go and look at this pages, they look like a normal Christian church.

Kolby Sorensen [02:07:39] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:07:40] Page.

Kolby Sorensen [02:07:40] They moved towards that later. When I first got there, it wasn't as much about that. Like, a lot of our videos would be about just explicitly like Joseph Smith or the Book of Mormon. But I think from what I have heard, they've moved towards trying to make it look more like a. Just like a normal Christian page. And in certain areas, they're even trying to move it. So the missionaries aren't the ones running the page, but actually the wards and having the members involved there, because it's very much. It's about getting the. It's another way of trying to do member work, as we would call it, where you get the members to get their friends to join this group to meet with the missionaries, to take the discussions, to get baptized.

Gerardo Sumano [02:08:12] Okay, that makes sense. So then. Sorry. So we talked. Phase one, message them directly. Phase two is friend them. How did that work?

Kolby Sorensen [02:08:20] Yeah, phase two is more of like, Phase one was like, join a Group and start messaging people, people en masse. Phase two was more like a still, like, join the group, but try to start like a normal conversation with them first. And like, make it normal. We called it normal and natural is what we talked about. Like, try to make it so you're at first just talking about your common interests. Like, if you're in a group about cars, be like, oh, hey, I really like this car. What's your favorite car? I'm not a car guy, so I can't give much there. But like, it would be that kind of idea where you would talk about just something that you have in common and then eventually try to befriend them and then work in a gospel topic was very much so clueless.

Gerardo Sumano [02:09:01] Can you imagine? Like, you're getting this, like, you're getting this trainings from, you know, like from the top.

John Dehlin [02:09:08] Like, no, but this is like, this is not a new lesson for Mormons. I remember like in the 90s, you know, Ezra Benson was like, well, flood the earth with the Book of Mormon. So every time you'd go to church, it'd be like, how many Books of Mormon did we distribute this week? Who gave a Book of Mormon to a neighbor? And what we all learned was that like, it's super goofy and weird to like, you know, your neighbor's mowing his lawn and you walk up and you go, hi, neighbor, I have a book to give you about Jesus. And you know, and for a long time they would collect stats on how many times did you challenge a non member to like have the missionaries over? And there would be all this pressure, right? No, but I'm just saying, in the 90s, there was this MO. I just remember this because I was kind of half in, half out by this point. And there was like, they held this meeting. They held this meeting. Like they made this announcement like either in soccer meeting or an elders quorum. And it's like, we have some new. We have some new council from Salt Lake City. The council is don't just walk up to people and ask them if they want to talk to missionaries. We have this new approach that's been carefully curated where you actually talk to them like they're people and just strike up a normal conversation. And then after you get to know them a little bit and just make them feel like you're normal, then you bring up.

Kolby Sorensen [02:10:45] That's when you spring it on.

John Dehlin [02:10:47] Yeah, yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [02:10:48] It was just like.

John Dehlin [02:10:49] And everyone was just like, whoa. You mean you just like, you treat them normally and then like become friends first and Everybody's like, yeah, yeah, let's try that. You know what I mean? I'm just like, that was in the 90s.

Kolby Sorensen [02:11:04] Yeah. And it's so funny.

John Dehlin [02:11:04] It was like they never learned.

Kolby Sorensen [02:11:06] No, really? Because it felt like a phenomenal new idea with Facebook. Like, whoa, let's be normal. Let's approach this like actual people do. Not like a programmed robot. Not like we're an ad.

Gerardo Sumano [02:11:22] To be fair. People are not going around on groups messaging others like, oh, hey, how are you? How's. How's your day going? What kind of car do you like?

Kolby Sorensen [02:11:30] No, that doesn't happen.

John Dehlin [02:11:32] I don't know because I've never, I've literally, I've never done anything on Facebook that wasn't Mormon related. Like, never once in my life. So I'm more. I'm just as bad.

Gerardo Sumano [02:11:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:11:44] I wouldn't know how to deal with the never Mormon on Facebook. I would have no idea.

Kolby Sorensen [02:11:47] Yeah, no, none of us knew either. Let's be honest. That kind of. You mentioned where it's like a random stranger messaging. You kind of moved into the third phase of it, which was that you join a group and so going right to friending or talking to people. You interact with the post, leave a, like, leave a comment saying, wow, that's super cool. And they're like, take your time with it. Don't like, just spring right into it. Take your time first like a post and comment on it and then eventually message about them about a different post later. And it, like, looking back at it, it's so calculated. It feels like a. Just like this. Yeah, very calculated, almost maniacal process. Like, yes, I'll slowly gain your trust and infiltrate your inner mechanicians. Biding my time patiently.

John Dehlin [02:12:32] Like at the time pretending to be your real friend.

Kolby Sorensen [02:12:35] Yeah, that's the biggest problem. It's like, it's like at the time, I don't actually. I even saw that as the time, but didn't get too concerned about. But now it's like you're pretending to be their friend just to try to get something out of them. And we're encouraging the members to do that. We're telling the members to go out and do that every time we meet with them. And how is this not like a messed up process? How was that not twisted in some way? How does that not come off as weird?

Gerardo Sumano [02:13:01] Yeah, what's.

John Dehlin [02:13:02] What's a tiny bit ironic to me is that the earlier super awkward, socially ignorant versions are actually the most honest. Because you're just like, hey, from the start, I want you to be a Mormon, you need to read this book. Your church, your lifestyle is inferior. So here's the book. Read it. Do you want missionaries? That's the most honest and authentic. And what the church is doing is they're slowly saying, hide who you are. Hide what your motives are. Fake a friendship and relationship. Draw it out and do more of a long con. Right.

Kolby Sorensen [02:13:37] You're supposed to make your Facebook look, of course, like, missionary and wholesome, but don't make it, like, obvious that you're a missionary.

John Dehlin [02:13:43] Yeah, hide the fact that you're a missionary.

Kolby Sorensen [02:13:46] How does this not seem culty? Like, all of this should scream no. Run away. And, like, even at the time, for me, I didn't like it at all. Without even thinking, like, much of it, I just didn't like it. So I still did. Very much the gist. I'd message be like, hey, do you want an uplifting message about Christ? Or, oh, hey, God loves you. Like, that would about all I did because I felt really weird. And I realize now, like, I felt wrong trying to do this very deceptive process of gaining their trust and infiltrating their inner circle kind of thing.

John Dehlin [02:14:15] So that felt wrong to you?

Kolby Sorensen [02:14:17] It felt wrong. It didn't. It, like, just didn't ever sit right with me because it felt. I don't know what the word I would have used at the time is, but now it just. Yeah, it feels twisted. It feels.

Gerardo Sumano [02:14:27] Did you have that rule that you. Because each of your. You and your companion would have a tablet. Right.

Kolby Sorensen [02:14:33] Phones. Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [02:14:35] Did you have this rule where you had to show your companion what. What you were going to say before you sent it?

Kolby Sorensen [02:14:41] Yes.

Gerardo Sumano [02:14:41] And then he had to review the message every time.

John Dehlin [02:14:45] Talk about social media rules where you have, like, smartphones and access to social media and how they blocked certain software.

Kolby Sorensen [02:14:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:14:54] They didn't block other things. Did you have an iPad?

Kolby Sorensen [02:14:56] That's really good to talk about too, because that plays into, like, my story later. Learning more about.

John Dehlin [02:15:00] Go into that. As much detail as you can.

Kolby Sorensen [02:15:02] The first thing they do is remember

John Dehlin [02:15:04] when El Tom Perry was like, we're gonna have iPads and missionaries. You know, he was so proud.

Gerardo Sumano [02:15:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:15:12] Do you remember that?

Kolby Sorensen [02:15:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:15:13] So it was, like, such a big deal.

Kolby Sorensen [02:15:15] They'll do with your phone. This is.

John Dehlin [02:15:17] So that's your actual.

Kolby Sorensen [02:15:18] This is the one I used on my mission.

John Dehlin [02:15:19] Android or iPhone?

Kolby Sorensen [02:15:20] It has to be Android, because the software they use will not work on iPhones. Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [02:15:24] So you have to buy your own.

Kolby Sorensen [02:15:25] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:15:26] Phone.

Kolby Sorensen [02:15:26] I already have Samsung, but I bought this one. Because it's cheap. If like, if there are any people who are potentially thinking about a mission and are saying like, oh, you're just a horrible anti Christ who left the church, at least listen to me on this. Like buy a new phone when you go on a mission. Don't bring the one you previously had at home. Buy like a cheap Android phone and know that the software you put on your phone is completely restrictive. You download an app called Moss360 that will.

John Dehlin [02:15:49] What does that stand for?

Kolby Sorensen [02:15:51] I don't even remember what saying it was just an app. I don't know if it stands or something. It's not like a church specific app. It's like used by other businesses as well.

Gerardo Sumano [02:15:58] But they can get into your phone and control the stuff.

Kolby Sorensen [02:16:01] Yeah, it's very much a controlling and monitoring of settings. And this is why I tell you if you're a missionary thinking about going on a mission or if you have a missionary who is thinking about telling them to get a new phone because part of downloading it now requires rebooting your phone. And I just don't want you guys to lose stuff that you care about on it because a lot of missionaries were blindsided by that and lost emotionally valuable pictures to them and stuff.

John Dehlin [02:16:20] Like photos from their childhood and stuff.

Kolby Sorensen [02:16:22] Yeah, no. So like me, luckily for me, I. This was a phone I bought just for my mission. It's beaten up, clearly I've dropped a few times. But you download an app called Moss360

John Dehlin [02:16:32] and it's a missionary operating system. I wonder if that's what it is.

Kolby Sorensen [02:16:35] No, because it's not. It's not like a church thing. It's a. Like other businesses use it.

Gerardo Sumano [02:16:39] It's kind of like time view on computers where like they can go and control another desktop.

Kolby Sorensen [02:16:45] They've tried to develop their own but they just have not been successful. And there's, there's still loopholes to Moss even, which again plays into learning more later. But you would download that. It controls what apps you can download, what sites you can even access and go to. And I don't know if it's true or not. Some missionaries believe that the president could even watch what you're doing on your phone. I don't know if that missionaries are a little paranoid. Yeah. And like conspiracy esque. So whether or not that's true, I have no idea. But they can lock down your phone. They do have a method to be able to like brick it essentially. And

Gerardo Sumano [02:17:26] isn't that kind of weird?

Kolby Sorensen [02:17:28] I mean very. Just don't Think about it. It is like you were supposed to. Not everyone was great at it. I'll never pretend that I was amazing at. But you were supposed to like if I was on a phone, if you were my companion, if we were doing Facebook finding, we would both have to be able to see each other's screens and approve each other's messages. And how does that work? So like we would sit side. You'd have to sit side by side like this, say use your phone to use your phone at all. Like you should always both be able to see each other's screens.

John Dehlin [02:17:56] So like you can't just be in bed at night looking at your phone.

Kolby Sorensen [02:17:59] No, not at all. I will say most missionaries don't.

John Dehlin [02:18:03] Hey, Elder, let's look at our phones now. Okay. Let's sit down next to.

Kolby Sorensen [02:18:06] You have to make it like. You didn't have to like say it like, as long as like you were like, you would have to like have it basically so they could see it couldn't look like you're like, like if I was just like looking at my phone like this, that would be a big no, no. Unless I had it like that so someone else could see kind of thing.

John Dehlin [02:18:18] Whoa. I didn't know.

Kolby Sorensen [02:18:19] And then you'd have to pre approve it. Most missionaries don't follow it. I'll be honest and just say that I didn't follow it.

Gerardo Sumano [02:18:26] I think it depends on the mission. Depends on the mission.

Kolby Sorensen [02:18:28] Depends on also companion. There's. You get your strict companions, you get your laid back companions, you get your apostate companions.

John Dehlin [02:18:34] So some missionaries or missions, the missionaries wouldn't observe each other's phone use, is that what you're saying?

Gerardo Sumano [02:18:41] It's kind of like waking up at 6:00am like, there's some missions that are a little bit more disobedient because the mission president is a little bit more laid back. There's other missions where the mission president is a lot more strict and like

Kolby Sorensen [02:18:51] everyone wakes up as mission president. You were.

John Dehlin [02:18:56] Yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [02:18:56] You had to pre approve any message or thing that you did there. And on your phone you're supposed to download an app called Screen Time. And every night they're supposed to do a phone audit where they check through your phone, see what you used, how you used it, and also occasionally check through your. I don't know if they encouraged checking.

John Dehlin [02:19:17] Like an Apple app.

Kolby Sorensen [02:19:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:19:18] Were your companions seeing what apps were you accessing? How long were you on the apps,

Kolby Sorensen [02:19:23] their photos to look through their social media stuff to see what they've been using? Some Missionaries.

Gerardo Sumano [02:19:27] Oh, so you're supposed to do that to your companion.

Kolby Sorensen [02:19:29] Yeah. You would give. I would like, if we were companion, I'd give you my phone, you give me your phone and we go through that with each other. And like, some would even take it as far as like checking personal messages to like, family.

John Dehlin [02:19:39] Who'd you text? What emails did you send?

Kolby Sorensen [02:19:41] Yeah, there was a.

John Dehlin [02:19:42] That's weird.

Kolby Sorensen [02:19:43] No. Yeah. And it. I didn't have any companions ever did that. Most of us never even did phone outs because we were like, look, we're by each other all the time. We're seeing what we're doing anyways and we didn't care.

Gerardo Sumano [02:19:51] Yeah, because. Because throughout the day you're supposed to show him whenever you're going to. Even to your family, right?

Kolby Sorensen [02:19:57] No. So with your family, you just have to have that. They're in the room and can see your screen. But you don't have to like pre prove any messages with your family or things you're saying to your friends. So I think maybe some missions do that, but mine very much wasn't, which is good. But it's like.

Gerardo Sumano [02:20:08] Yeah, yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [02:20:10] It's just. You start to realize just how controlling it is. And I think it's such a bad thing because I think it cripples the missionaries for when they come back into the real world and learn that this is not normal stuff. And I think they lose. You kind of start to lose that ability to know how to function normally.

Gerardo Sumano [02:20:28] Yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [02:20:29] And constantly. It was like a very much like a constant paranoia. Even if you're obedient missionary, you just had this constant, like. Yep, anxiety, guilty about. Anxiety and guilt about using your phone and having that phone audit, which is why a lot of missionaries just don't do it.

John Dehlin [02:20:44] So you may have already answered this. Forgive me, but, like, was YouTube on your. Could you have. Could you install apps? Was there a thing that would block you from installing apps?

Kolby Sorensen [02:20:55] You could only install apps. You could do it through the App Store, but Moss is basically able to stick its little tentacles into it and control what apps you can even see to try to download. And YouTube was immediately uninstalled. Chrome, even Google Chrome, which is on there, is like controlled. What you can search, you can go to like lds.org I think, and like that's it. It's extremely.

John Dehlin [02:21:16] Oh, so the limited. How would you get to a URL?

Kolby Sorensen [02:21:20] You don't.

John Dehlin [02:21:23] So Safari, you say?

Kolby Sorensen [02:21:24] No. Yeah, you would only be able to use like, you'd have like your Chrome or. I think it was just only the Chrome app. But you could go into it and you could search like, you could search. But if you try to search something that's not approved, it would give you like, sorry, your administrator has not approved you searching this screen, basically. And so the only thing you could go to was like, I think it was like lds.org and like church approved sites.

John Dehlin [02:21:46] Okay. And I, I think I, I, I know I've corresponded with some missionaries who learned tricks and tips on how to break or crack open.

Kolby Sorensen [02:21:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:21:57] And install what they wanted or do what they wanted.

Kolby Sorensen [02:21:59] There are a lot of ways depending on the mission. Like in Italy, the controls on it were more lax than others. I don't want to talk about the methods too much because I'm worried of a mission president somehow finding out and taking away that. Because I think it's something very important for the missionaries to have. But there are ways I, in Washington, where it's more locked down, there was still a method to get to a full access of the Internet of like just being able to like browse the Internet and pull up YouTube and it was even easier to do in Italy. Both have their loophole around it though,

John Dehlin [02:22:29] which is really missions have. And do you learn these from other missionaries?

Kolby Sorensen [02:22:34] Yeah. Oh, you learn these from other missionaries. That's black marketplace. Oh, that's not. The black market is Google Drive. Google Drive is the missionary black market. That's a way to share documents with each other. That's how I, we're jumping ahead in the story, but that's how I got access to this letter. Like Google Drives is the missionary black market.

John Dehlin [02:22:55] Okay, okay, but, but like, so within a given mission, in a given year, there's a pool of disobedient missionaries that know how to break into the phones or the iPads. And then they teach. If you, if you find a safe missionary, you'll teach them how to break into their phones or iPads. Is that right?

Kolby Sorensen [02:23:14] Yeah. And like the trick missionaries, it was like you take it with caution. Like it's very much like a, a guessing game to see how disobedient your companion is. You like seeing, it's like this weird awkward dance you do slowly. Like you poke a little here and it's like, oh, okay, you didn't freak out about me playing something that wasn't Motaba's music. Okay, what about if I do this? What if I mention this way of getting around it? What do you respond to that? Like, it was a very, like, missionaries slowly figure out like each other's apostasy levels. Apostasy levels to know what they can do and get away with. Some missionaries watch movies, some don't, some crazy.

Gerardo Sumano [02:23:51] I mean, that's all fun and cool that missionaries are able to figure that out. And I think it's great. I think it's good because there's also this. But there's also.

John Dehlin [02:24:01] Jen's back there laughing.

Gerardo Sumano [02:24:04] But there's also this side of. I remember my sister several times called us on her weekly calls, and she would cry because of how stressed and anxious she felt about. Not because the church is trying to figure out social media rules. So it was hard for her to figure out what the rules were. And feeling guilty all the time that she was not doing everything correct or she was not doing everything 100% or being 100% obedient.

Kolby Sorensen [02:24:35] Yeah, no, that's.

Gerardo Sumano [02:24:37] So while there's missionaries who will find loopholes, it causes really real pain in missionaries who are really trying to be

John Dehlin [02:24:46] 100% obedient and like, to almost like, too much temptation.

Gerardo Sumano [02:24:50] Too much. Not temptation, but like, it's like. Like, like you're saying, like, I don't know, like, I accidentally opened something I was not supposed to or I spent too much time on with this person and I was not supposed to. And just those things, like, really create. Create a sense. I don't know, of guilt and pain in.

Kolby Sorensen [02:25:11] Anytime you break the set rules and control, you immediately have this anxiety of like, oh, no, they're gonna find out. And until the mission president. The mission president's gonna get mad at me. And it's very much. It's. I hate to say it, but I feel like it's set up in a model that's supposed to make you feel constantly like there's the horror movie villain just behind your back waiting to get you. So you're constantly looking over your shoulder in fear and anxiety. Like, that's how it felt for me.

Gerardo Sumano [02:25:34] And then there's also the. The fact that you're being watched so much. Like if you had a companion that you. That was being abusive emotionally or physically, because the companion is always looking at everything you're saying has to be in the room every time you're talking to your family. I remember with. Again, with my sister, and I know it happened with my husband's sister who was on the mission at the same time. Like, they were having issues with their companions and they weren't. They weren't able to tell us. You know, they wanted to tell us, but they couldn't tell us because the missionary was there listening all the time. 100% of the time in the room.

Kolby Sorensen [02:26:11] Yeah. That happened to a missionary. I knew him. He just did not like his companion. They just weren't getting along. And he emailed his family about it. And that missionary went through his emails and saw and like got super mad at him. He's like, dude, that's none of your business. Like, that's my personal interactions with my family. What are you doing? And like, it wasn't encouraged at all to look through personal emails. There are just some that take obedience a step farther than it needs to be.

Gerardo Sumano [02:26:36] Yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [02:26:36] Because you have to be exactly obedient to have the spirit. So I mean, that's probably a factor is why.

Gerardo Sumano [02:26:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:26:42] Wow. What a weird tech missionary culture.

Kolby Sorensen [02:26:45] No, it is. And they're still figuring it out to this day. Like, how the best approach to Facebook is, especially Instagram. Now they're trying to get to Instagram and figure out how to do it. There's. There were some missionaries who started to do it, like a very like, tick tock dance style. And the church immediately was like, no, that is not how we want to be represented.

John Dehlin [02:27:02] Oh, that wasn't church approved. Because I remember when dancing missionaries were

Kolby Sorensen [02:27:07] all over Instagram, it was very like, I think maybe a couple encouraged it, but from both the missions I was in, it was very discouraged.

Gerardo Sumano [02:27:13] Yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [02:27:13] Like, this is not how we want the church represented. We. Because that's what reached, like, I'll be honest, that reached tons more. Like, it was way more effective. Effective.

John Dehlin [02:27:21] I thought, I thought the church was leading that and I thought the church liked it because it was hip and cool.

Kolby Sorensen [02:27:26] From what I know. No, it might depend on each mission that could be. But from what I know about the. In Washington, it was very much like a, we want to stop doing this. We do not like this. It was very meant. Like, it used to be like, Facebook was like a fun and goofy thing. One of my companions made a. Made a rap battle between Alma and Coral Whore.

John Dehlin [02:27:45] Yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [02:27:45] And it was hilarious. But then they very much wanted to move away from that. Like, we want very serious, spiritually uplifting content. I was like, it's not as fun though. Come on.

John Dehlin [02:27:54] Yeah. What's not awesome about white Mormon missionaries from Utah co opting, you know, culture culturally? What is it, what's it called? Cultural appropriating urban rap music.

Kolby Sorensen [02:28:10] Well, not the.

John Dehlin [02:28:10] To the. To, you know, to the lyrics of Book of Mormon stories.

Kolby Sorensen [02:28:16] Nephites are white and delightsome though, so it's accurate according to them. But no. Yeah. And just like, even like, just like it was very. Just like, I felt like creativity was discouraged, and I don't think that was good. I feel like missionary mental health was like, a big thing that played into every missionary and in every mission. And just the view on physical and getting, like, getting sick, it changed from, like. I've heard other stories where it was very much like, if you're sick, you keep knocking through it. But I'm glad to say and report, at least that's changed some. And that was because of COVID where it became more normal for. It's like, if you're sick.

Gerardo Sumano [02:28:51] Yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [02:28:51] You know, actually stay in bed if you're feeling depressed or, like, you have anxiety. We actually have, like, a mission therapist you can meet with. It started getting taken a lot more seriously.

Gerardo Sumano [02:29:02] That's good. Yeah. Because. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. I'm just. I'm just remembering because my. I mean, yeah, my sister was on her mission, too. Like, there was times when she would get sick and she wouldn't want to go to the doctor because she would feel. She. She felt like it was going to be perceived as, like, she was not being righteous enough.

Kolby Sorensen [02:29:20] Oh, yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:29:21] That's why she was getting sick. And she didn't want the mission president to look down on her for getting sick and not have, like, being able to do the work.

Kolby Sorensen [02:29:30] Yeah. And it's. It's gotten better in some ways and has stayed the same in others. Like, the leadership now, like, mission president, as in leadership, is very much more like, yeah, if you're sick, you know, like going to a doctor. But the mission culture still very much is that of, like. Yep, you knock if you're sick, you knock if you're tired, you knock when you're sore, you knock when it's raining, you knock if you're feeling depressed, like, it's very much. And seen as, like, if you're feeling anxiety, some still very much see that as, like, that's a bad thing, and that's because of you not being faithful enough. And I think. I don't know. It was good at least, though, because, like, missionary mental health got, like, a much better light brought to it, which is good because there's not a lot of coping mechanisms you can use as a missionary. My biggest way I usually cope with stuff is music. And if you're following the mission rules, the only thing you're allowed is, like, LDS hymns and EFY music. And EFY music just annoys me. And lds, nice. But, like, when I'm going through a hard time, like, none of those let out the emotions that I need to let out and you don't. You can't have any hobbies. You can have an instrument in which they started allowing a lot more, but that's about it. And it's just mental health definitely needs to still be taken more seriously within the mission field, and there needs to be more coping mechanisms available and coping methods available for missionaries, because it's very much just. You get one day a week and not even like a full day where you can do like a. You can act normal and talk to your family. Well, that you're allowed to talk to your family. And it's. The rest of that is just as 24. 7. Work, work, work. And I don't think that's something that's healthy at all.

Mental Health Struggles and Rule-Breaking on the Mission

John Dehlin [02:31:09] So. Okay, so I'm still back on, like missionaries finding a way to get around installing apps. And so there were missionaries that would break rules, find ways to hack their phone, and then be able to watch YouTube videos and maybe listen to podcasts and. And that sort of thing. Yeah, but. But I guess talk about that as. As you take us through when your faith started to crack and when you started having doubts and questions.

Kolby Sorensen [02:31:40] Right. All right, so we'll go. I guess we're going to go back now to. So end of my. My training period with the. I had the same trainers for my whole transfer. Then after that, I was put with a new companion who's really good for me because that companion did a great job at making me feel like I was valuable, like, I did know what I was doing and, like, he was a friend to me and, like, I was able to talk about, like, my anxiety and the pressure I was feeling with him, which was super good. Companions, I think, are the biggest highlight of the mission for some people I know. Some get stuck with companions who are horrible or just mediocre. I was lucky. I had a lot of. All of my companions were amazing. But for. For me, it was good because he was definitely someone I saw as a friend and I was able to start to be happy and felt like I had someone I could talk to again. We started being able to knock during that time, and every missionary convinces themselves that they love knocking, but they don't like knocking. They just like the conversations they can have while knocking because we would just be talking and goofing around and acting and talking like teenagers would. And it was really nice to finally do that and to have that break for the first time in a long while. And. Do you have any questions?

Gerardo Sumano [02:32:43] No. No, keep going.

Kolby Sorensen [02:32:45] Yeah. During that time, like, Late end of that transfer was when. So I was reading through. I love reading. I was reading the Book of Mormon, Old Testament, New Testament and Pearl of Great Price all at the same time. And I was kind of getting bored of it. Like there's interesting stuff still, but like I wanted more, I wanted to more knowledge because basically like it's repeating the same thing you always have known and already knew. So I started looking into other stuff within Gospel library and started poking around and I found the gospel topic section and the church history section. And I started reading through that because once again, like the desire in my mind to know how to answer questions and to know the answer to these concerns, I mean, was still there and it came back. So I started reading through those a lot more during my personal study.

Discovering the Gospel Topics Essays and the CES Letter

John Dehlin [02:33:32] And instead, how much had you read the gospel topics essays prior to that time?

Kolby Sorensen [02:33:38] Not at all.

John Dehlin [02:33:40] So when they came out and seminary

Kolby Sorensen [02:33:45] weren't encouraged to read them, I think we maybe referenced the gospel topic essay when we talked about the book of Abraham in seminary, but it wasn't like a read through. I think we just referenced it. That was really my first time reading through them and even finding them. It wasn't like through a recommendation by anyone. I just was like looking through different stuff on there and it was a section I had found. Okay, church history section, I started reading through. At one point I had read through like the whole entire catalog they have there because I was just bored and needed something new to read.

John Dehlin [02:34:14] Okay, so let me be clear. This is something so in the mtc, it wasn't like, okay, you're gonna have a phone and there's gonna be a gospel library app. And in the gospel library app there are these gospel topics essays. Make sure and familiarize yourself with the gospel topics essays so that when you're asked questions about different controversial things, you'll be able to know the church's line, none of that.

Kolby Sorensen [02:34:38] None of that. Like I. If they did, I definitely don't remember it because it was probably, if they did, it was brought up probably in a very nonchalant way. Because for me, find the gospel topic essays was like entering a whole new world and having a whole new section exist.

John Dehlin [02:34:53] So up until this point of your mission, you really. The gospel topics essays, their existence and what they talked about just kind of. You were oblivious to it.

Kolby Sorensen [02:35:03] Yeah, I.

John Dehlin [02:35:03] In 2020.

Kolby Sorensen [02:35:05] Yeah, it's not something they really like. Oblivious is probably a bit of exaggerate. Like I, I wouldn't say I knew they existed, but like I probably had like seen them before, but it wasn't something I was like, really made aware of. And I think it's still like, it's not the goal to be made aware of those. I don't. I think they're meant to be there as like a, oh, look, we did this. But you don't. They don't want to funnel members to it too much because I think they know that they. Not just problems and they solve.

John Dehlin [02:35:28] No, but Harari, what you're saying is that in 2021, a Mormon missionary is out serving a mission, not even knowing that the gospel topics essays exist.

Kolby Sorensen [02:35:40] Yeah. I was the one to discover them for myself. It wasn't anyone at all.

John Dehlin [02:35:44] That is unbelievable that they could keep those from a. You're. You are making the decision to give two years of your life to a

Kolby Sorensen [02:35:52] church and pay for it.

John Dehlin [02:35:54] And pay for it, and somehow you do that without a knowledge that the church itself had put out essays, talking a little bit more honestly about its history. And the. And the essays are living on your phone, but somehow you still are oblivious to them.

Kolby Sorensen [02:36:12] Yeah, well, I mean, it's. Because the goal is to not know about that. So it's very much that you don't need to worry about that stuff because that's not what you're teaching. Teaching to people. Your concern is the small and simple parts of the gospel and building their faith there. So you're very much supposed to focus on just reading, Preach My Gospel and then the standard works. And that's really it. You're supposed to just stay stuck in those. Because it's the. Yeah, the small, small but simple truths kind of thing. The. The primary answers. You're very much supposed to stay within that category. So they don't encourage trying to learn more about that or deep doctrine or that other stuff out there that could be troubling and stuff.

John Dehlin [02:36:45] The church is successful keeping its own members from reading the. Its own content that it releases. That's how successful it is at creating a bubble.

Kolby Sorensen [02:36:55] Yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [02:36:58] Yeah. It's. Yeah, that's like George Orwell stuff again.

Kolby Sorensen [02:37:01] It's 1984.

John Dehlin [02:37:02] Yeah. Yeah. Because then, I mean, that is a real feat. We're gonna put out essays, put it on our website, put it on everyone's apps, and no one's gonna know about it. But then we're going to be able to say we're transparent. In our history.

Gerardo Sumano [02:37:16] They were already. They were always there.

Kolby Sorensen [02:37:17] They were always there. How did. It's not our fault. They were there the whole time. We just may have not mentioned Them, but they were there.

John Dehlin [02:37:24] That is really a remarkable achievement. I have not.

Gerardo Sumano [02:37:27] My. My sister was told on her mission that she was not even supposed to read, like, the Pearl of Great Price or think too much about it. Like, she was supposed to stick to the Book of Mormon, but maybe a little bit Bible, especially New Testament, and preach my gospel.

Kolby Sorensen [02:37:43] That's it. Really. The main things you're supposed to read are New Testament and Book of Mormon. Like Pearl Great Price is there. It's like you can read it, but you're. I'll get more into that. But you're. You very much avoid Pearl of Great Price and even doctrine covenants.

Gerardo Sumano [02:37:54] Yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [02:37:54] With people you're teaching. And then Old Testament.

Gerardo Sumano [02:37:56] She was told by the mission president, like, you're not. Like you don't you. You're not to study this even on your personal study. Meaning Doctrine and Covenants. Pearl of Great Price focus on Book of Mormon and New Testament.

John Dehlin [02:38:10] So now the church is creating a bubble that excludes large sections of its own canonized scripture.

Gerardo Sumano [02:38:16] That was her mission precedent. I don't know how it's in other missions.

John Dehlin [02:38:21] That's what Kolby said.

Kolby Sorensen [02:38:21] Yeah. It's very much staying the standard works. Focus on the Book of Mormon and maybe the New Testament. Avoid the Old Testament because some of the stuff is kind of. That's all weird and outrageous and sound and stuff. And I mean, we know that of course, some of that was translated incorrectly because Joseph said so. So we don't have to worry too much there.

John Dehlin [02:38:38] Wow. Yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [02:38:39] But the Old Testament's way. I found the Old Testament way more fun. But.

Gerardo Sumano [02:38:41] Yeah. Yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [02:38:42] That's because I started to realize. I mean, eventually later on I realized it's like. It's very much more like mythologies. And that's why I started to find it, I think, more interesting. It had a very.

Gerardo Sumano [02:38:51] To me, the New Testament was always way more interesting and. And powerful than even the Book of Mormon. I love teaching with the New Testament, but on my mission, it was seen as you were an unrighteous missionary. If you were using the Bible to teach, you were supposed to use just the Book of Mormon.

Kolby Sorensen [02:39:09] Yeah. Ours wasn't that far, at least, but it was like, it was very much an emphasis on the Book of Mormon. And then like the New Testament is.

Gerardo Sumano [02:39:15] Yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [02:39:15] Support that what the Book of Mormon is saying is true.

Gerardo Sumano [02:39:18] Yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [02:39:19] And the Book of Mormon supports that the New Testament is true because they're trying to break away from that mold of the perception that people have where it's like, oh, you just have your Book of Mormon Bible. And you don't believe in the actual Bible. Yeah, kind of thing that makes sense. But yeah.

John Dehlin [02:39:32] Okay, so you're. So you discover the gospel topics essays, and this is how many months into your mission?

Kolby Sorensen [02:39:40] Four or five at this point.

John Dehlin [02:39:42] Okay.

Kolby Sorensen [02:39:42] Almost like four to five. Coming up at six and six. Around six, I think is when I started reading into it.

Gerardo Sumano [02:39:49] I have two questions for you. Had you heard of any missionaries mentioning them?

Kolby Sorensen [02:39:55] I'd have to say it was like kind of like a in passing whispers kind of thing. Was my perception of it more. So, yeah, I'd say it's kind of like a they exist in passing.

Gerardo Sumano [02:40:05] Yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [02:40:05] Thing.

Gerardo Sumano [02:40:06] And then my other question is, did, did. Did you find any people when you were teaching or contacting people, talking to them? Do you. Did they ever challenge your beliefs? Something that made you kind of like think, oh, maybe I should go research that a little bit more?

Kolby Sorensen [02:40:24] Yes, but after I had already read the gospel topic essays. Okay, all right, all right.

John Dehlin [02:40:30] So you find the gospel topics essays.

Kolby Sorensen [02:40:32] Yeah, I definitely had like, I just a thirst for more knowledge. I wanted to try to figure out more and learn more. So I was reading through the gospel topic essays, the church history topics, and it's all the things within that. That category. And I wouldn't say I was too disturbed yet. I was just kinda like, oh, okay, so there's some weird stuff, but we can keep going on with it. The one that I think first stuck out and bothered me the most probably was learning the truth of why Joseph Smith was like a kind of a wanted man. I think that one stuck out. But even then it was like a, sorry, very minimal kind of impact, like was kind of just. They. It was a very slow and gradual process for me as a. Over the time, kind of for.

John Dehlin [02:41:21] For never Mormons. These gospel topics essays are groundbreaking because the church hid and lied about its history for almost two centuries. But because of the Internet, they released these gospel topics essays around 2014 and they covered, let's just say, eight to 10 of the major issues that cause people to leave the church. Yeah, they're written by committee. There's no one, there's no date on them. They change a lot. There's no signature on them, but they're written. A lot of important stuff's left off and then they're. The narrative is woven in a way to where you would. It would never occur to you that any of these things you're reading about are actually problems. They're written as if everything's awesome and, and the church has always taught this stuff openly and honestly. And, you know, sort of like, these are not the droids you're looking for. Yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [02:42:12] There is no warm bossing. Say.

John Dehlin [02:42:14] What's that?

Kolby Sorensen [02:42:14] Oh, I was just making up avatar reference. There is no warm bossing. Say it's all is fine. But.

John Dehlin [02:42:22] But. So they're deceptive in that way, but they're also a slight move towards more transparency. Yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [02:42:27] And what made me Matt too, like, later on was learning how deceptive their footnotes are. And some of their quotes are like, the footnotes are very ineffective at finding what source they're talking about. They kind of. They feel like they're designed to be as difficult as possible to find the source of the footnotes, even for. And on top of that, like, a lot of times, like, there's quotes that are only halfway done, but we can get more into that later.

John Dehlin [02:42:51] So they'll excerpt the quotes in ways. Maybe even you lose the context or even change the meaning. Meaning?

Kolby Sorensen [02:42:56] Yeah, like you said, the. It's a very. Shoot, I forgot the word. It's like a very woven.

John Dehlin [02:43:04] Like a contextualized narrative.

Kolby Sorensen [02:43:06] Contextualized. Yeah, the narrative. It's a very. They control. It's very much about controlling the narrative.

John Dehlin [02:43:11] Yeah. Yeah. So you start digging in, you say, and what happens?

Kolby Sorensen [02:43:18] I was saying I was going like nothing too crazy was happening. And then around during my next transfer, I was made DL and moved to the Bonnie Lake area. Love my companion there. He's awesome. But there's. When I started to have some more questions and concerns with things because I saw in a. It was just like a weird. I don't remember what it was at this point. I think it may have been like Joseph saying there's people on the moon. Like that kind of quote on Facebook from like a group that got tagged with like an LDS thing. And so there I was like, wait, what? And started trying to re. Look through those again and couldn't find anything. Which is eventually kind of what helped lead me into the. Jim Bennett's response to the CS letter and the CS letter itself.

John Dehlin [02:44:01] Okay, so what? Yeah, so why. So, yeah, we've had Jim Bennett on Mormon Stories. It's one of our epic series where Jim Bennett responds to concerns he has with the CES letter. But so what would make you think that you started to. And, well, talk about the importance of that for missionaries in the modern day of Jim Bennett's response to the CES letter. And what was it that led you to become interested in it? And was it forbidden on the mission?

Kolby Sorensen [02:44:32] No, it was just kind of something that wasn't like. It's not. I don't say explicitly forbidden, but it's kind of something. It's like, you don't need to worry yourself about it. My goal was even to find the CS letter. Jim Bennett's response. I had asked in a missionary Facebook group for a Google Drive with more deep doctrine. Because I was like, okay, I'll just study through some deep doctrine. I was kind of bored. The Joseph Smith people on the moon thing didn't bother me too much, so I was like, I'll just focus on something else kind of thing. And I got. I asked for, yeah, like a Google Drive with a just like deep doctrine. And I got.

John Dehlin [02:45:02] This is missionary contraband at this point?

Kolby Sorensen [02:45:04] Missionary contraband at this point? Yeah. But my way of justifying was like, well, I just want deep doctor. I'm not there for anything else.

Gerardo Sumano [02:45:09] But it's righteous contraband. It's not like missionaries are sharing doubts.

John Dehlin [02:45:12] It's for the extra faithful, hardcore missionaries. No.

Kolby Sorensen [02:45:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:45:15] I saw it as like a very top secret sacred. Yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [02:45:19] I'm just trying to. Trying to be smarter. Trying to. Trying to learn more about what's going on. Learn the deep Doctrine, because that's fun. And I got a lot more than what I asked for. I got one full of a Google Drive.

John Dehlin [02:45:32] Now, would your. Would your Moss app or whatever allow Google Drive access?

Kolby Sorensen [02:45:36] Yes. Google Drive is allowed. And I don't.

John Dehlin [02:45:38] Are we ruining their secret? No.

Kolby Sorensen [02:45:39] Because there's no way I think they could take it away because it's so essential for any of the Facebook work they do.

John Dehlin [02:45:44] Okay.

Kolby Sorensen [02:45:44] Because they need it to be able to make and share the videos.

Gerardo Sumano [02:45:47] That's awesome.

Kolby Sorensen [02:45:47] That I don't think they'd be able to function without having it. And I think missionaries would still find a way.

John Dehlin [02:45:53] Okay.

Kolby Sorensen [02:45:53] It's so widespread at this point. But on that drive were. I'm not also like, mission presence. Were very aware of one of these particular Google Drives because it was like a. It was called the Thible or the White Bible. And it was like a.

John Dehlin [02:46:07] Were these shared across missions or was

Kolby Sorensen [02:46:09] it just within your cross missions? And our mission president, many mission presidents knew about this and were trying to find ways to shut it down. But. And they shut one down successfully at one point.

John Dehlin [02:46:20] Do they know who. Who created it?

Kolby Sorensen [02:46:21] No, it was called what the White Bible. There were two different ones. There was the Order of the White Lotus and the White Bible.

John Dehlin [02:46:27] And the Order of the White Lotus.

Kolby Sorensen [02:46:30] It's another avatar last airbender. Reference.

John Dehlin [02:46:32] But that's what the Google Drive was called.

Kolby Sorensen [02:46:34] That's what the drive is called.

John Dehlin [02:46:35] It had what on it?

Kolby Sorensen [02:46:36] That one was all TV shows and such.

John Dehlin [02:46:41] Oh, so that wasn't like.

Kolby Sorensen [02:46:42] And the white Bible was deep doctrine. Eventually those two got combined to create what they called the thible. For some reason, I don't even know where that name came from. If the missionary who made that is watching this, please tell me how you came up with that name. I'm just curious.

John Dehlin [02:46:54] I want to have on Mormon stories the original creators of these Google Drive. Yes. Because they are seen contraband Mormon missionaries

Kolby Sorensen [02:47:00] among like kind of disobedient missionaries. They're seen as legends because they are known to like not be caught because like new episodes were still getting added on like the TV series. So they were definitely still getting away with stuff through their missionary email and put out like document updates. Basically saying, yeah, I'm still on my mission.

John Dehlin [02:47:16] This is like the guy that bitcoin, like, no.

Kolby Sorensen [02:47:19] Yeah, this is a legend.

John Dehlin [02:47:21] Or what is the. What is the guy with the, with the mask that hacks into people's computers?

Kolby Sorensen [02:47:27] Anonymous.

John Dehlin [02:47:28] Anonymous. This is that kind of lore.

Kolby Sorensen [02:47:30] Yeah. No, yeah, this is like a whole nother level of missionary contraband. Like you're. Once you're a part of this and know about it, you're like part of a secret group and you probe to see what other missionaries know about it and stuff.

John Dehlin [02:47:40] I've never heard of this before.

Kolby Sorensen [02:47:42] No, it's wild. And I'm not too worried. Talk about. Because I don't think mission presidents will be able to shut it down because our mission president very much knew about it and still couldn't stop it.

John Dehlin [02:47:50] I want the links. I want the links to these Google.

Kolby Sorensen [02:47:53] I can do that.

John Dehlin [02:47:54] Okay. In the show notes. In the show notes, we're going to include the links.

Kolby Sorensen [02:47:58] I still have the link to it.

John Dehlin [02:48:01] Oh, okay. So one of them was a. Was like popular media. Last Airbender. Like Last Airbender. What else?

Kolby Sorensen [02:48:07] Any movie you could find on there. I.

John Dehlin [02:48:09] What you.

Kolby Sorensen [02:48:10] The Saw series was on there. Joker was on there. The whole Marvel universe was on there. You could watch Psych, Rick and Morty, you name it, it was Rick and Morty. He was on there.

John Dehlin [02:48:21] Are these like MP4s.

Gerardo Sumano [02:48:23] You shouldn't. Because it's probably going to be taken down because of copyright violations. So don't. Don't give a link to it.

Kolby Sorensen [02:48:29] Don't give up.

John Dehlin [02:48:29] But these are. These are MP4s.

Kolby Sorensen [02:48:31] Find me if you want to. Yeah, they're videos. They're just video links and I don't

John Dehlin [02:48:35] know, they're not, they're not YouTube.

Kolby Sorensen [02:48:37] Not YouTube links. It was like a downloaded form on it. And with Google Drive, if you have a shared file, it doesn't download to yours, it's just saved. Download it on theirs. And what this missionary probably did was down buy like the expense expanded storage for his drive. So he's a saint among these disobedient missionaries. But.

John Dehlin [02:48:56] And then the other one, okay, the

Kolby Sorensen [02:48:57] other one is the white.

John Dehlin [02:48:58] And that has.

Kolby Sorensen [02:48:58] The one was I was more interested in is the white Bible. And that's like, yeah,

John Dehlin [02:49:07] Why are you laughing?

Kolby Sorensen [02:49:11] Big deep doctrine and stuff like that. And like Mormon doctrine. Mormon deep doctrine doctrine. Old conference talks that you can't find within journal discourses. Journal discourse. The miracle forgiveness, Doctrines of salvation. Doctrines of salvation, miracle forgiveness. 00:10 don't recommend. And also like just like other random links to deep doctrine stuff. And the section that caught my eye when I got this, at the time I was very much still a very obedient missionary. So I was like, I don't care about this movie stuff. I just like didn't look at it all. So like I'm just not going to touch. But I found there was a section that was like anti Mormon stuff. And so I looked at it. I'm like, okay, this is kind of what I'm interested in a bit. I have questions here. And the first one that caught up was one that, I mean, the first one that caught my eye was something I'd seen before, which is CES letter and responses. And so that's what I ended up clicking on. And within it were two PDF files. There was the CES letter by Jeremy Runnels and the response to the CS letter by Jim Bennett, Yoda versus Count Dooku and Luke versus Darth Vader, the classic good and evil. And I was like, okay. I was immediately interested in it because I already had that like that seed from earlier, I guess, planted. And so I started with. I was like, well, since one's a response, I'm obviously I'm going to start with the original text.

Gerardo Sumano [02:50:32] So I started because you still had questions, right? You read the questions, you read the gospel topic essays and you were like, this is. These are not really.

Kolby Sorensen [02:50:40] It's kind of weird. Especially the book of Abraham 1 specifically because it felt like reading through it. Like the first time I was fine. But like a second time reading through, I was like, these are very much what's. How do I word it? It's a very much just a Non answer. It's a, a dodging the question.

Gerardo Sumano [02:50:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:50:54] Okay, so for the first time you're reading the true history of the book of Abraham. The problems with Joseph Smith's alleged translation of the Egyptian into English and then you're reading Jim Bennett's responses to Jeremy Runnels critique.

Kolby Sorensen [02:51:10] I read the CS letter first, then Jim Bennett's response. But it was very much like a noticing K these like the history that I've been told isn't completely right but maybe there's nothing wrong there. But like K I'll do obviously the original then the response first. So I again I'd say I have to say I skimped because like reading through the CS letter like it was that same kind of heart pounding thing where it's like if my mission companion maybe sees this, he might get the wrong idea and just being super worried. So I was always very short and brief in my readings and tried to make it pretty quick. So I won't pretend like it was like the best read through ever.

John Dehlin [02:51:42] But okay, really quick. I'm trying to imagine this scenario where you're like, so your companion doesn't know you've got this Google Drive. So I'm imagining some other missionary must have told you about it.

Kolby Sorensen [02:51:52] I got another missionary.

John Dehlin [02:51:54] It's like a P day and you're like elder, come here, there's a Google Drive.

Kolby Sorensen [02:51:59] So how it happened was I found out this missionary. This is a whole nother story. Now this other missionary came in who had. Oh wait, no, just kidding. There's one. Eventually I got another Google Doc from that guy. But the main one I had, which was the one with the deep doctrine

John Dehlin [02:52:13] stuff, I'm just imagining I didn't mention

Kolby Sorensen [02:52:15] it to my companion. No, it was very.

John Dehlin [02:52:16] No, but I'm imagining how you found out about these secret contraband Google Drives.

Kolby Sorensen [02:52:21] Facebook. I was in a Facebook group. I asked for like a just. It was, I asked for just a deep doctrine and I got way more than I asked for.

John Dehlin [02:52:29] But not from other missionaries.

Kolby Sorensen [02:52:30] From other missionaries in your mission or in the world? Just the world. It was like a worldwide missionary deep doctrine group. I was like, hey, can anyone give me a Google Drive link to like a folder with a ton of deep doctrine? And they gave a link and it had like I said, way more than what I bargained for. I got rid of when I first got, I got rid of like the, the Order of the White Lotus section, just had the white Bible section because I was always, I was interested at the time.

John Dehlin [02:52:52] So missionaries outside of Their mission are able to communicate on Facebook.

Kolby Sorensen [02:52:57] Highly discouraged. I lost this on P day by like mission presence. Like it's discouraged from doing. But how are you gonna stop it? Let's be honest. Sometimes those groups got shut. That group eventually got like shut down because the church apparently was trying to get rid of them because they didn't want them around. And so mission presidents were told to find the missionaries who started them and to shut down those.

John Dehlin [02:53:16] What was the group called again?

Kolby Sorensen [02:53:17] I think it was. Oh, there's a couple different ones. There was like mission LDS missionary, deep doctrine. And there was like the after hour missionary, I think or something. It was like something like that.

Gerardo Sumano [02:53:28] That's awesome.

Kolby Sorensen [02:53:29] There's tons. There's lots of weird missionary groups. That's a whole nother. Just, just look up LDS missionary groups and you'll find tons of weird stuff on Facebook. Have fun with it everybody. But no. So yeah, I was very much reading in secret. I was reading it during personal study because I was like, I'm. I didn't see it as like wrong. I was like nervous about someone getting the wrong idea. But I saw. I was like, I'm just trying to find answers and figure all this out. So like it's not a big deal. I'll use some of my personal study for it. But even then it was like I'd only use like 10, 20 minutes of reading through it. So it took a while. But after I skimmed read through it, I was like, okay, well that's kind of a lot to think about. And in my mind I was like debunking some stuff, that's what you can call it, like mentally working around some of the issues. But then I was like, okay, I saw it like somewhere. I'm like, I felt a little disturbed by. I felt.

Gerardo Sumano [02:54:22] Do you remember which ones they were?

Kolby Sorensen [02:54:23] Book of Abraham.

Gerardo Sumano [02:54:25] But like what thinks about the book?

Kolby Sorensen [02:54:26] Because just the fact that.

Gerardo Sumano [02:54:27] Let me just. So if you read, if you go to the gospel topic essay, what most people are gonna get out of it, out of reading it is the church admits that the papyrus as the papyri has nothing to do or it doesn't mention the name Abraham and that all LDs and non LDs Egyptologists agree that the translation, the translation would be pretty much incorrect. But then for some reason they, they. Well at the end they have this like several bullets where they go through like different reasons why the book of Abraham is historical. So it gives you like, it's kind of like this question like, okay, you're telling me it's not a Translation and lds and non lds. But then it's historical.

John Dehlin [02:55:10] So ancient somehow.

Gerardo Sumano [02:55:11] Right? It's.

Kolby Sorensen [02:55:12] So I kind of like, what in red? I started underlining doubts I had in red. And that's one of the very first things I underlined was the conclusion to the Book of Abraham gospel topic essay.

Gerardo Sumano [02:55:23] Yeah. So you were probably like, okay, which is it? It's not a translation, but it's ancient.

Kolby Sorensen [02:55:32] But just like, how is it a trans. How is it doctrine? And how can we say this is for sure scripture if we're admitting that it's not like, what's there? How are we. How are we making that jump? I wasn't at that point. I was very much not throwing it out as like a complete impossibility.

Gerardo Sumano [02:55:49] But do you remember what Gene Bennett's response would have been?

Kolby Sorensen [02:55:52] Jim Bennett's response was reread. I tried rereading it before I came. And honestly that was hard because a lot of it just feels like him mocking and joking around, which I think is one of its strengths and weaknesses. But his response was kind of just making fun of who he said his source was for the facsimiles. And then he presents, I remember, four options for how it came to be, which is one, that, like, the scholars are wrong. I think number two is that it's inspired. And number three is who cares? It's scripture anyways. And he, well, like, as he does agree, like he says, like, I think this third one is a dumb point because I don't like it as an answer, which I respect that a lot that he's willing to say that. But the second one I think is what he kind of more leans to. Leaned into for sure. But then the most of it is just making fun of the sources that the CS letter uses. And then even once Robert Rittner is mentioned, it's like, oh, well, here's his. He won't respond on these different issues here because the way he word it is like he. They're challenging for him and so he avoids them. He only chooses fights that he knows he can win. It was like the setup for it.

Gerardo Sumano [02:57:02] Robert Rayner doesn't reply because he is going to lose his fight.

John Dehlin [02:57:07] Yeah, yeah, let's trust Jim Bennett on Egyptology over.

Kolby Sorensen [02:57:10] Yeah, no, and that was one thing

John Dehlin [02:57:11] that made me mad.

Kolby Sorensen [02:57:12] Like, looking back at it, it's like, wait, you're making fun of the sources here. But he at least admits, like, I'm not an Egyptologist. But also it's very much something like, look, take my word for it kind of Thing it was just like this hard double standard. And then with the CS letter, the other thing that really caught my attention was the prophets section. And also learning that it wasn't a big deal for me but like learning that the Book of Mormon was translated using a stone and a half first I didn't get the big deal with that, but then like it was a bigger deal later. But the biggest, the second biggest one for me was definitely prophets and then race in the priesthood. Why profits? Because growing up I remember singing like follow the prophet, follow the prophet and just stuff like that. And always that like we can completely trust the prophets. But how can.

Working Through Faith Crisis While Still Proselytizing

Gerardo Sumano [02:57:56] Because Jim Bennett gives this version of Mormonism and his response it's a very. Profits are so fallible that they can come up with the 2015 policy but somehow still be profit.

Kolby Sorensen [02:58:08] His response was not satisfying for me at all. That was the. When I first read through it, I like found a lot of stuff satisfying, but that one for me never was because it was like, how can we trust these as reliable men who we should always follow? Or if we're saying we should sometimes follow, how can we trust to follow them when they've been wrong, so horribly wrong and endorsed horrible things on so many occasions? How do we know that they're not doing that right now? How is that even if the church is true? Do I even want to take that gamble of following a prophet who might be wrong 20 years later? Does it even make sense to. Even if I believe in the church to follow that if it's someone who could be wrong as you're. And on like very important topics. That was hard for me. And the reason the priesthood was just realizing that like the narrative I had been taught about how the church was for the civil rights movement, just learning that it was very different than what I had learned because I was taught like, I think. I don't remember if I mentioned it earlier or not, but that like the church has always been really pro civil rights and was really supportive and it was not in so many ways. And it was just. That was definitely a big issue for me because I'm like again, coming back to. It's like, why is God not getting at you guys for this? How is he not appearing and interceding and being like, hey, slow down a bit. So don't say any of that. Don't say that blacks are lesser, don't say that you shouldn't intermarry. Don't say that they were less valiant in the pre existence. How is like that not on God's top list of concerns to come down and stop. And those are kind of my big concerns going in that I was trying to resolve with Jim Bennett's.

John Dehlin [02:59:47] Fortunately, Rod Meldrum cleared all those up last week.

Kolby Sorensen [02:59:51] That's not the word I would use.

John Dehlin [02:59:53] Sorry.

Kolby Sorensen [02:59:55] That was.

John Dehlin [02:59:57] That was painful. I'm sorry. Yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [03:00:03] I don't even have words to put about that. So let me check my notes here with the cs, I guess. Where do you want me to go next? Just like my reading through of the CS response or.

Gerardo Sumano [03:00:17] Yeah, just tell us more about, like, what were you thinking? How long. What was. What was the process of you reading Jim Bana's response? Was it over several weeks? Were you telling your companions about that?

Kolby Sorensen [03:00:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:00:28] You said you were. You're reading this, but you're somehow. You're trying to keep it from your companions.

Kolby Sorensen [03:00:33] Yeah, I was just companions who didn't care about seeing the screens all the time, which made it possible.

John Dehlin [03:00:36] Okay.

Kolby Sorensen [03:00:38] And I was very secretive because my mindset was like, these are my concerns, my issues. I know if I ask other people one, I might just get looked down on. They might tell the mission president. But also, like, at a level, I knew that I was just going to get a biased answer, a very biased. Just believe the church's true answer. And that's not at all what I had wanted. And so I was very much in the mindset of I'm going to have to dive into all of this alone.

Gerardo Sumano [03:01:05] Yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [03:01:06] And it was very painful that way. But I think it was. I understand why I did that and I don't blame myself for doing it. And I think that was the best way to do it, was to do it. Just. It was something for me and it was something. I think it was best done, I guess, by myself because it was something I needed to just. I needed to know for me.

Gerardo Sumano [03:01:25] Were you sad a lot of times?

Kolby Sorensen [03:01:27] Yeah. There was. Even after reading Jim Bennett's responses and having something satisfied. It was a very long period of back and forth. I would have days and this is all. I was a district leader during this whole time as well. And that added pressure of like, oh, shoot, sometimes I need to be a better missionary and stop doing this. I'm supposed to kind of be a bit of an example and help out the other missionaries in my district and other periods where I was much more like, crap, I really don't think this is true. And it was a very long back and forth process between. So I was rereading parts of Jim Bennett's response and the CS letter Back and forth. And eventually I was able to use a little loophole to be able to see the debunking section on the CES Letter website, which is amazing. Check it out if you haven't.

John Dehlin [03:02:11] We'll include links to all this in the show notes. Go ahead.

Gerardo Sumano [03:02:15] You were. You were going out and proselytizing and teaching people, right? Like, at the. At the same time you're going through all this. So how. How are you able to tell people, Share your testimony and say, I know the church is true, Brother, sister, whatever, Pray about this book. Would you like to be baptized? How were you. How were you dealing with all that?

Kolby Sorensen [03:02:38] Some of it depended on the day. Like, on a day where I believed more, it was easy because I was like, okay, yeah, well, I do believe this. But on days where I didn't, especially once I just didn't believe it was. I learned to put on a mask. I wasn't me. I put on. I knew exactly what role to play. I knew the role of the missionary. I knew how to act, what to say, how to seem like I was all in and believed. But it was a facade. Like, I knew it and I knew I was lying to myself. And that was really strenuous and painful on my mental health. Just knowing that I was. Especially later on, once I stopped believing, just knowing I was. I felt like an imposter. I knew I was a liar and I. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:03:26] What's it like? Thanks for being candid and talking about something really hard. What's it like? So, you know, some would say, well, you're a missionary. Then you start reading troubling things and then you say, oh, it's not true, and then you go home. But that's not how it works. So what. What's it actually like when you're a missionary and you start to question.

Kolby Sorensen [03:03:48] Even once I knew, I didn't believe going home was not. It was something I thought of, but it was more of like a passing thought. Like, I could do this, but I didn't see it as an option because I was so worried about. It's a very much a. If I go home, I will be a social outcast. I may lose everyone I know and love. I will lose friends, I will lose family. I will lose the respect of them. I will lose my ward. Like, not all that was true. Some of this is just over worrying, but, like, the pressure. Yeah. And it's very dishonorable to go home early, especially if you're going home early for doubts. And for some of you, I didn't connect that, like, obviously looking back, it's like, oh, well, I didn't believe. So how is it dishonorable? But I was still kind of in that mindset that even though I didn't believe it'd be dishonorable to go home. So my plan was to fake it for the next year, year and a half. Yeah, it was about a year at that point, or a little over a year to fake it until I got home and until I was in college and maybe talk about it later as I make a slow transition out. I very much had like a. It's so dumb. I had like a planned phase of how I would slowly introduce this to my parents and slowly make my exit, because that's what I saw as the best and safest option.

John Dehlin [03:05:02] But you had a year to go on your mission.

Kolby Sorensen [03:05:04] I had, yeah. By the time around the time where I was like, I do not believe I was like, I had like 13 or 14 months left. Just shy of a year.

John Dehlin [03:05:13] Holy moly.

Kolby Sorensen [03:05:13] I was coming up onto it and that.

John Dehlin [03:05:17] Well, you were 10 months in.

Kolby Sorensen [03:05:19] Yeah, I was.

John Dehlin [03:05:21] That's. Missions are hard when you're a full believer. Super hard.

Kolby Sorensen [03:05:28] Yeah. The back and forth was like a four, six month process of going back and forth between believing and not believing. And it was painful because, yeah, there are days such a back and forth and my emotions were everywhere. I started. I did start seeing the. The mission therapist, but of course I didn't talk about the. The real concerns behind what I was going through, because I knew if I did, it'd probably be reported to the mission president. And so I was trying to get help and develop coping mechanisms that I needed, which was good. Like, that it did help for sure. And the dude was an awesome guy.

John Dehlin [03:06:01] Wait, so let me just get this straight. So any therapist, you know, the code of ethics for therapists begins with the rule of confidentiality. I mean, every single. The first thing you do when you meet with a client is you say, everything we say here is confidential, and I will not be sharing it with anyone outside of the session that without your consent. So how do they address therapist client confidentiality in. In Mormon missions?

Kolby Sorensen [03:06:32] So my mindset going into it was I didn't know for sure if he would tell him, tell my mission president, but I kind of just assumed and had a. A suspicion, I guess, that if I mentioned it, there's a good chance he does mention it to my mission president. So I chose not to. And then I was reading somewhere later, and if I'm correct, I believe that, like if you're doing therapy through, like, the LDS Family Services, is that they do have basically some legal wording so they can tell leaders. So in my case, it would be a mission president. I don't know if it would have been exactly true for this situation, but I'm gonna. Looking back, I'm gonna assume it was.

Gerardo Sumano [03:07:05] Yeah. Outside the mission, like a regular word, there is a form if the word is going to pay for the therapy. On Family Services, there is a form that you're encouraged and most people feel pressured to sign, where the therapist is able to talk to the bishop about your therapy sessions or what you're going through. And I'm sure on missions is probably explicit.

Kolby Sorensen [03:07:32] I'd assume it's something.

Gerardo Sumano [03:07:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:07:34] So did. Did your therapist start the session by saying, everything we discuss here will be held in confidence?

Kolby Sorensen [03:07:41] I don't recall that ever.

John Dehlin [03:07:43] I wouldn't think they would.

Kolby Sorensen [03:07:44] I don't think so either. I know we started with a prayer each time, which has made me doing therapy now awkward. Cause I sometimes will start to fold my arms. I'll be like, wait, that's not how we normal people start therapy.

John Dehlin [03:07:57] That's unethical. That's unethical to start a therapy session with a prayer.

Kolby Sorensen [03:08:01] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [03:08:02] I.

John Dehlin [03:08:03] That's outrageous. I've never heard of that before.

Kolby Sorensen [03:08:06] Yeah, I mean, I guess it. In my mind, it made sense in the context, like, oh, I'm a missionary, this person's a member. It's very much like a LDS therapist and therapy.

John Dehlin [03:08:17] But that's not therapy.

Kolby Sorensen [03:08:18] No.

John Dehlin [03:08:18] If you're questioning the existence of God and your therapist starts out with a

Kolby Sorensen [03:08:22] prayer, you already know you can't bring that up at all. Yeah, that's off limits.

John Dehlin [03:08:28] Or if you're struggling with the ramifications of a faith crisis, or if you've committed some big sin and you know your therapist is like, on Jesus's side.

Kolby Sorensen [03:08:36] Yeah. Just going immediately. Yeah. So about that. The whole thing we just started with, I don't know if God is real or not. And I'm losing my mind thinking about it. Like, that's not a normal thing you can talk about or transition into.

Gerardo Sumano [03:08:49] Yeah, it's.

Kolby Sorensen [03:08:51] It's. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:08:52] Oh, that's. I. I actually believe it or not. I didn't know it was that bad. I thought these were just licensed therapists that followed their codes of ethics.

Kolby Sorensen [03:09:03] And this could just be my experience. I won't speak for all, but that's from my memory and recollection.

John Dehlin [03:09:07] That's standardized.

Gerardo Sumano [03:09:09] From what I understand, the therapists that Treat missionaries are vetted a lot more than the regular LDS service therapists and regulations are a bit different.

John Dehlin [03:09:25] Yeah. Okay, so you. So, but. And, and so you don't remember him guaranteeing you confidentiality?

Kolby Sorensen [03:09:31] I don't remember that.

John Dehlin [03:09:32] And then you, regardless, you remember feeling like, I can't be fully honest with this.

Kolby Sorensen [03:09:38] No. Yeah. I already. I had like, made a contract with myself to not take it, tell anyone. And even when I started therapy, I definitely held to that because I'm like, I'm not taking any risks. I need to find this out for myself because if I find out it's not true, I have to fake the next part of my life until I can go home. And if I find out it is true, well, then it's no big deal to bring up anyways. Was like a law of how I. I rationalized it in my mind, even though it was something that was weighing heavily upon my soul and mind. And yeah, the source of a lot

John Dehlin [03:10:07] of this is outrageous and awful. I did not know this. It's terrible because this is. This is intense pressure a Mormon youth is feeling about. Is there a God? Is the church true? Should I stay or should I go? What will happen if I go? Will I be ostracized by my family? That's like a vice grip of stress and pressure. And Gerardo, I'm sure you experience similar types of things on your mission, especially where the mission. But it can really grind your. It can ramp up the anxiety and ramp up the depression in very serious ways. And it's not safe.

Gerardo Sumano [03:10:48] And won't. Won't some. Their mission therapists will assign you scriptures or. Or give you therapy with kind of like the gospel intermingled with the therapy. Was that your experience at all?

Kolby Sorensen [03:11:00] I think we did a little. But like, mostly he did focus on because like I told him, like, my main concern was finding like new coping mechanisms. And that is what he mostly focused on and finding them, like helping learn something new. Like I like meditation and learning some new kind of just like figuring out some ways to better meditate and calm my thoughts.

John Dehlin [03:11:16] So it wasn't totally worthless.

Kolby Sorensen [03:11:18] There was still a lot of good that came from that. There's a lot of ways that he helped me for sure. Like, that was definitely something that helped keep me less anxious and less depressed and helped keep some worse thoughts at bay for sure.

Losing Belief in God and Navigating Mission Leadership

Gerardo Sumano [03:11:32] I have a question. How did you go from. I have questions about the book of Abraham and the reliability of prophets to. To maybe God or Jesus are not. Do not exist.

Kolby Sorensen [03:11:47] Some of that I think is just the way I mean, the church is set up. You're very much told like, this is the most true church of all churches. If we're not true, then what are these other trash? And it's like, well, so it's like, it's part of like, the logical conclusion to Conclusion to come to. But it was also just realizing that every other religion had these. Missionaries love putting out these problems within religions. But once you realize that your own religion has this problem, you remember they all have these similar issues as well. So what's to make them any more true than this? What's to make any of this true? And I started to view as more. Yeah, I started to have a very different view on God and religion because of that.

John Dehlin [03:12:28] Yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [03:12:29] Once I lost my faith, when I still had, it was still like, maybe God's real. Maybe he's kind of real. It was kind of like, I think the farthest I would have taken it at that time.

Gerardo Sumano [03:12:42] One more question I have is how. How are LGBT issues talked about among missionaries and on missions and like, nowadays

Kolby Sorensen [03:12:53] in the most disgusting way and possible. Like, it's maybe talked about in decent ways, but the attitude is gross. I can't think of another word other than like, it makes you want to vomit.

John Dehlin [03:13:09] Say it.

Kolby Sorensen [03:13:10] I. There was a missionary who talked about his time when he was in Salt Lake before he got transferred to his other mission or assigned to his next mission. And he talked about, at one point, one of it was a quad, so there's four missionaries in an apartment. And he talked about one point that one of the missionaries admitted that, like, he, like the way that he worded even was like he was struggling with gay thoughts. Like, not that he was gay, but word it in the very same sex, very Mormon version of it. Same sex that he was struggling with same sex attraction. And there everyone's reaction to that was to not want to be around him anymore and feeling like, oh, I don't want to be around. That might be awkward or he might hit on me or just like, stuff like that. And it pissed me off a lot. It was.

John Dehlin [03:13:55] That was in your mission.

Kolby Sorensen [03:13:57] Yeah, there wasn't. That didn't happen in the mission I was in, but it was from. It was once in Italy. A missionary there talks about how that's experience he had with his companions before he was reassigned and he was in Salt Lake.

John Dehlin [03:14:10] So was there ever an openly gay missionary on your mission that you were aware of?

Kolby Sorensen [03:14:14] None that I ever knew of, no. And that would be very much a thing I would Imagine I'd honestly say I'd probably be discouraged because like, having doubts was discouraged. Having worries was discouraged. Even being open about mental health or physical problems you're having was discouraged. So I have no doubt in my mind that being open about that you struggle with same sex attraction as they would word it would. I imagine that would be very much shut down as well.

Gerardo Sumano [03:14:40] It's probably good to mention that there's at least two missionaries right now on the mission fields. I know one of them in person because I. Because he went to byu, Idaho and I saw him there. I mean, he's not my friend or anything, but he's serving a mission right now. And they, they're on different missions, but they are both very openly gay and very open about their sexuality. And I, I found their journeys pretty interesting. Been they both made Facebook posts about their sexual orientation and about being gay very, very openly. One of them, at least one of them has made a video talking about it. And I know that from church headquarters, at least for one of them, they have tried to shut it down and tell him, like, you should delete this post and you shouldn't talk about it.

John Dehlin [03:15:33] Yeah, imagine. Imagine some Mormon kid raised in Magna or Tooele or freaking in, you know, Mount Pleasant, Utah, who's homophobic and then all of a sudden he finds out the companion he's getting is gay. Like, that's not gonna work.

Kolby Sorensen [03:15:49] No. And it's.

John Dehlin [03:15:50] Yeah, that could be unsafe.

Kolby Sorensen [03:15:51] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [03:15:52] No.

Kolby Sorensen [03:15:52] 100%. And what makes me more. I just remembered this now, the church. My worry with that would immediately be that they tried to make it marketable. Because I remember there was a sister who had lost her brother to suicide. And the first, like, once different leaders found out about it, the goal was to have her do a video and she was open to doing it. But to me, it immediately didn't sit right. Cause I felt like you're just making her suffering marketable and you're making. Didn't sit right with me, especially where I've had friends and family who have struggled with stuff like that. I'm like, it just didn't sit right that they felt like they were making it like something like, oh, look, come to us, we can solve this problem. Like, oh, Elder Rasband video.

Gerardo Sumano [03:16:46] Cassie was not about her telling her story genuinely, or it was about using her story and spinning it in a way that it would promote the church.

Kolby Sorensen [03:16:57] That's how I felt like for her, I definitely feel like she, like, it was very emotional, like, and it still was very touching hearing her talk about it, but just the way it felt like they were trying to use it as something like a marketing tool. The same way with one of the things. I forgot to mention it earlier, but that made me. It was the first time I ever was openly mad at a church leader. Was Elder Rasband's youth devotional where he. There was a question like, I have. It was like an anonymous question from the crowd, but I was like, I have doubts about the church and its truth claims. How can I resolve them? And he was like, oh, let us show you this video. And it cuts to a video about a teen who is suffering with depression, suicidal thoughts. And that immediately fucking pissed me off. I was visibly upset and my companions knew it because it just immediately registered to me as wrong because it wasn't even answering the question. It was saying the point of the video was to say, if you are struggling with depression or suicide, it's one. It's linking it to you having doubts. And it's also saying we can resolve those and make it go away. Because afterwards he's like, he's like. He had him stand up, be like, look, he's now about to be happily married and look like basically how much better he is now because he has the church and riles me up still. It's. It feels so much like it's just exploiting mental illness and suicide and depression. Something that, that shouldn't be used as a, like a marketing tool to say, come to our church. It's something that should just be talked about genuinely and about trying to get these people help, especially where they're trying to link having doubts to being depressed, basically making that, that connection there. And it. For me, mental health stuff, suicide and depression are very like sensitive topics for me. I've had people I know almost lose their lives to stuff like that. And so seeing it used in a way like that, I just find disgusting and evil.

Gerardo Sumano [03:18:57] And I'm sure once you started losing your faith, it was a lot easier to see those, to see those things and recognize when things were being done wrong, right?

Kolby Sorensen [03:19:10] Yeah, for sure.

Gerardo Sumano [03:19:15] And then. Are we at a point in your story when you're already in Italy?

Kolby Sorensen [03:19:19] No. So I. So where we're at would be, I'm starting to go back and forth between my faith and eventually it's hard to pinpoint what exactly made me lose it, because it was kind of just an all at once thing, right? Where it was like, hey, if this is off and this is off and this is off. Sorry, one sec. I just gotta catch my breath a Bit if this is. If all these things are off and not lining up, how can this church be true? And so I resorted to the classic go to of Moroni's promise. Was I. I was already praying a lot during the time, but I gave honestly the most like, sincere and emotional prayer I had ever given. And up to this time I had in my mind to help give context, I had set up like I had a space in my mind with God smiling at the middle because I very much saw. I see God as a kind God. That's how I saw him. And so it was like on one side was a scale for in favor of the church and on the other side was in favor against the church. And for me, I was starting to lean towards. Every time I kept thinking about it and going back to it, I started to lean more and more on the side of the church not being true. And so one night I just kind of went into that place in my head and prayed and said, just please, please, if you're real, tell me. Say something, anything at all. I don't care if it's a mosquito doing something weird on my wall, just let me know this is true. Let me know that last 1918 years of my life, I haven't committed it to a lie. Tell me that I haven't been out here lying because I wanted it to be true. I needed it to be true. Because it was my. It was my worldview. It was my world. It was everything in so many ways. And so I was praying and begging for an answer and then silence. Nothing. And I remember it was. I was definitely angry in that moment. I was like, so I guess that's it then. And I just imagined the statue of God just crumbling down and falling to pieces. And at that point, that was, that was the moment, the moment when I lost my faith and officially realized I don't believe. Because for a long time I think in a lot of ways I had stopped believing. But I was trying to push it off. It was. The subconscious knew it, but the conscious didn't. But at that point it was. It was acceptance that I did not find the church to be true. That the church, yeah. Function as what I knew couldn't add up and be true. And at that point, that's when I made the plan. There was only one person I had told that I had doubts. And I very nervously told them, but they said that they had doubts too. And they're someone I was able to talk to and kind of express that with a bit. And eventually I was Able to talk to and reach out to more people. Once I was in Italy and had Instagram.

Gerardo Sumano [03:22:18] But were they missionaries?

Kolby Sorensen [03:22:20] No. There are people at home.

Gerardo Sumano [03:22:22] Yeah. Okay. Certainly you. You would have been teaching people and telling them to follow Moroni's promise to. Right up until that point, did any of your investigators ever had like an experience when they follow Moroni's promise where they received a definite answer that the church was true?

Kolby Sorensen [03:22:50] After the point where I said, no, I don't believe the church is true? No, I never had an experience like that. But before I did.

Gerardo Sumano [03:22:56] But so you're saying you had investigators who actually received answers to their prayers.

Kolby Sorensen [03:23:02] Okay, but I'd also heard of stories where people had prayed and said that they got led to Revelations, whatever, where it's like if any book be not the Bible or as from it, they truly. Yeah, like that.

Gerardo Sumano [03:23:13] So they Prince. Yeah. So God told them that he was not true. Pretty much, yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [03:23:17] Missionaries rationalization of that was always funny because it was just like, oh well, I guess they were misled, but there's nothing more they could say about it. And the reason started to speak to me of the inconsistency and the lack of reliability that the Spirit has.

Gerardo Sumano [03:23:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:23:35] What do you mean by that?

Kolby Sorensen [03:23:38] Just that if people can get led away, like we're saying, to read that scripture and revelations, but that also you, you can get an answer that the church is true by the Spirit. It's like, how do you know which one is actually the Spirit and which one's not? Because for her it was a prompting to go there. So you obviously can't say, oh well, it's Satan leading her there in the scriptures. Like that's such a weird. That's almost saying the Bible is evil. So missionaries couldn't and wouldn't say that. But also just like if everyone in every church has the same kind of testimony that someone else does, I kind of just was like how there's no quantifiable way to really say any of these testimonies are more valid than the others. They're all. They're all equal.

Gerardo Sumano [03:24:20] Yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [03:24:20] Because they're all based from the same kind of emotional experience. Heightened was a high end emotion.

John Dehlin [03:24:32] Yeah. So the flow or elevation Emotion.

Kolby Sorensen [03:24:38] Yeah. Elevated emotion.

John Dehlin [03:24:39] Yes. Which all humans experience.

Kolby Sorensen [03:24:41] Yeah. It's very just.

John Dehlin [03:24:42] Mormons call it the Holy Ghost.

Kolby Sorensen [03:24:43] Yeah. They brained it as something only they have. Which also started to annoy me too because it was like, why do we get to trademark happiness? Why do we get to trademark the spirits? Like stuff like that made Me so upset. Why do we get a trademark truth? Like, who are we to say that if you leave the church, you couldn't be any happier? Or that the only way to be truly happy is in the church? Or that what you felt was not really the spirit, it's only kind of the spirit. You have to join our church and pay 10% to get that deluxe edition, the DLC.

Gerardo Sumano [03:25:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:25:15] Yeah. Wow, that's just so like I. I had hard stuff happen on my mission, but that just sounds incredibly difficult.

Kolby Sorensen [03:25:26] Yeah, it was. It was hard. Especially just knowing that I was once it got to the point where I knew I was putting on a mask because it was.

John Dehlin [03:25:35] What does that do to. What does that do? Like, so for people who've never been in a high demand religion, maybe they don't understand what it's like to live a lie month after month after month. Teaching things that you know aren't true, pretending to your companion that you believe things you don't. Faking it to your mission president, hiding things from your therapist. What does that do to you? Month after month after month?

Kolby Sorensen [03:26:00] It slowly eats away at you. And you once, looking back especially, are almost a little disgusted with yourself because of your lack of moral integrity. And that was very much how I felt. I was gross that I felt just disgusted towards myself for believing that. And it's something. Putting on that mask every day was so painful because it was a very conscious action. It was no longer something I was unconsciously doing. It was something I was purposefully doing every single day. And it ate at me knowing that I was doing it and then I wasn't truly being me.

John Dehlin [03:26:36] So that's. That's actually a surprise to me. I would think that in that position you would say I'm part of a high demand religion or cult. This isn't fair. I was manipulated and pressured into this mission and I can't leave because everybody else who's still in is a part of it. So like, you wouldn't beat yourself up for lying. You would literally say, I'm doing this for survival and that's a heroic act and I'm just going to suck it up for my own survival. But you wouldn't beat yourself up for deceiving people? That's what I would think.

Kolby Sorensen [03:27:11] Yeah. That's my mindset. More now is what you described, where I am a lot more kind towards myself about it and like able to not blame myself and realize that it was what I was conditioned and set up for. And. But at the time it was something I was Beating myself up for a lot, which wasn't good for my mental health because it was. I was just putting myself through the wringer about it, knowing going out and being like, you're lying about this. And it was even harder, like, running into bashers or bashers, because it'd be like, I know what you're saying is true, but I have to pretend now, oh, my gosh. To be like, hurt and offended and sometimes like, I was. And I realized, because it's like I wanted to scream and just let out. Yeah. I know, it's weird, right? But I had to put on this act of like, oh, they don't know what they're talking about when it comes to DNA and the Nephites. That was. That's the one distinct one. I remember being bashed.

John Dehlin [03:28:04] You heard about, like, problems with the church's truth claims. You would support the church knowing that the. That the truth claims challenges were legitimate.

Kolby Sorensen [03:28:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:28:16] Oh, man, that would be.

Kolby Sorensen [03:28:18] And just like, hearing him say that and wanting to be able to scream out with him like, dude, I know it doesn't make sense, but having to pretend like, oh, yeah, there's totally answers to that in the gospel topic essay. And it's totally coherent and makes perfect sense. Yeah, it's. It's weird.

John Dehlin [03:28:37] That would be super hard. And you're freaking 18.

Kolby Sorensen [03:28:41] Yeah, I was 19. 19 at least at this point, but

John Dehlin [03:28:43] 19, still not 20.

Kolby Sorensen [03:28:45] 19.

John Dehlin [03:28:45] You're not drinking age. You're not even drinking age yet.

Kolby Sorensen [03:28:48] I'm still not.

John Dehlin [03:28:49] Yeah, Your brain still isn't fully formed.

Kolby Sorensen [03:28:51] It is still. I'm still just a kid. Okay.

John Dehlin [03:28:54] Yeah. All these people are commenting. This kid's brilliant. But your brain won't be fully formed for another six years.

Kolby Sorensen [03:29:00] Not at all. Yeah. No, like, which I. I love. I made a vow also when I, like, I was done with the church, I'm like, I'm not going to stop learning. Because that's what I felt like they were trying to get me to do was to have a cease and progression to be damned, as they would put it, a stop of progression. And I was like, well, I don't want that. I'm going to always try to push myself to learn and find out more and to learn something new every day and to have my worldview grow. So I think that's a lot healthier to do.

John Dehlin [03:29:30] Just a little side note, when I was growing up, damned meant going to

Kolby Sorensen [03:29:33] hell,

John Dehlin [03:29:35] stopping his modern interpretation to make the Mormon church seamless, its doctrine seem less barbaric and hateful.

Kolby Sorensen [03:29:45] Yeah. And it was so hard, like talking. We had a girl we were teaching who was I still, I was like at a midway point when we taught her, but she was, I think she was bi or lesbian. But she eventually asked the like, so you guys believe I'm going to hell then, right? Because I'm lesbian. And realizing that even our nuance, like, well, not really, you'll still be in one of the other kingdoms and it'll be happy with such a BS approach because it's like, but we believe you'll no longer be gay and that you'll have that cured because it's something I'm, I'm not saying this is what I believe. I'm saying this as the church's belief. Is that where you're being cured of what's wrong with you and you're being made whole and just giving that response because like my companion, he wasn't trying to, because he had nothing, no idea what was going on. But like we had like a trade off system. It was like my turn to kind of like answer something. I was like giving this in the back of my head. I'm like, I'm so sorry that I am saying this to you because it's just, it's just wrong. That's a hurtful message, no matter what. And the message you're told to show is very deceitful. The missionary discussions, I would say are still very deceitful. Like I said, we were kind of told to avoid bringing up D and C and the Book of Abraham. I mean, I think it's very clear why now. It's because they bring in a lot of the issues. Like the Book of Mormon on its own is already going to have people with issues, even if they don't see like historical issues. Just the idea of having another Bible, they already like might give you some, some grief about that. So bringing in two other ones that actually have some legitimate concerns and problems in them definitely starts to. You see why they want to avoid it.

John Dehlin [03:31:25] Yeah, yeah. Like I always want to give the church leaders the benefit of the doubt. That they're sincere believers and that they know.

Kolby Sorensen [03:31:34] I definitely think they are too.

John Dehlin [03:31:36] Yeah, yeah. And that, that they're good hearted and they just want to spread the goodness. But when you think about the missionary program and even these things we were talking about with social media, there is intentional, conscious deception going on. Both of the missionaries and, and of the investigators. They're intentionally withholding information they know would make them not want to join the church. So they're both teaching missionaries not to share certain things, Keeping things from the missionaries and then teaching missionaries explicitly not to share certain things because it'd be like knowing that your transmission's broken, but you, you tell the salesperson, don't let the buyer know that the transmission's broken.

Kolby Sorensen [03:32:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:32:27] Or they won't buy the car.

Kolby Sorensen [03:32:28] It's that, you know the car broken. You shouldn't be selling the car in the first place.

John Dehlin [03:32:33] It is that level of deception, even if they are sincere believers.

Kolby Sorensen [03:32:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:32:36] Am I wrong?

Kolby Sorensen [03:32:37] No, not I definitely. Right on the nail on the head.

Gerardo Sumano [03:32:44] Yeah. I think I also wanted to mention that something. So I was an assistant to the president while I was on my mission. And something I learned, my mission president taught us was that the number one goal of a mission president is to. Is not to convert many people, but is to convert the missions missionaries.

Kolby Sorensen [03:33:09] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [03:33:10] And that missionary president success even by church headquarters is measured on how many of those missionaries that they had under their supervision remain in the church and follow the covenant paths once they come back.

Kolby Sorensen [03:33:32] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [03:33:33] Based on those numbers is how then they later promote mission presidents to maybe other higher positions.

Kolby Sorensen [03:33:40] They had that similar setup for me as well where it's like the scripture, if you can bring but one soul unto Christ, then how great shall your joy be? And basically saying, I was like, if that one soul can be you, even if you just bring that onto Christ. Which I think is good because the mission is a field in which it's very competitive and it's very number based. And it still is. But they're trying to kind of fix that by saying, look, don't stress the numbers too much. They say it, but by practice you still are definitely stressing baptismal numbers and constantly setting unachievable goals that you'll say, we're going to try to get 15 baptisms as a zone and you're going to get two by the end of the transfer. And everyone knows it. But you feel bad if you set a local because then you're not faithful enough. It's very high pressure. I'd say if the church, if the LDS Mormon Church isn't a cult, the mission is a hundred percent occult.

Gerardo Sumano [03:34:31] Yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [03:34:32] On a whole nother level, it's control and deceit brought to just a whole new extreme.

John Dehlin [03:34:39] That's like a meme. We need to make that meme. If the Mormon Church isn't a cult, the Mormon mission is.

Kolby Sorensen [03:34:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:34:44] That's meme worthy. Really quick, Gerardo, you're about to say something. Before you do, I have to read a comment from the Lila Tuler, not only one of my favorite humans, but one of the most important Mormon stories podcast episodes ever. And since we're talking about the sincerity of Mormon general authorities, she is one to be able to speak because she is the daughter of Hartman Rector Jr. Who was a prominent outspoken Mormon general authority. Hi Lila. She writes, I'm not so sure that the leaders are all sincere believers. I think they know too much and I think they are too invested themselves to do anything about it. So they keep the lies going to support themselves in their own self deception. That's Lila throwing it down, dropping the mic. Hey Lila.

Kolby Sorensen [03:35:32] Yeah. I think it's very possible. I like to try to give people the benefit of the doubt that their intentions are good even if they're the fruit sown from their actions isn't. But it very well could be that they are more aware. I think they're more aware than they'd let on. But I do think they think they're doing a good thing. I think.

Gerardo Sumano [03:35:50] Yep.

Kolby Sorensen [03:35:50] I think they definitely have that. I know. I don't think anyone ever looks like I can't wait to do this horrible thing and hurt all these people. Like that's just not how we are as people. I think they think they're helping, but yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [03:36:01] And it's honestly not just the high up leadership. Like honestly just thinking about how I was as a missionary. I, I believed in the church. I believed it was true, but I knew there was a lot of problems that I didn't have answers to. And whenever I would debate with bashers or Jehovah Witnesses or other religion people, I would always avoid to say the things that I knew would. That I didn't have answers to things

Kolby Sorensen [03:36:31] that would be problematic.

Gerardo Sumano [03:36:32] Yeah, I would hide evidence that I knew existed that invalidated my point and use this, use deceit to, you know, promote the churches. I really believed it was true and it was worthwhile. So I mean human psychology is really. It's not black and white.

Kolby Sorensen [03:36:59] It's not at all.

Gerardo Sumano [03:37:00] It's very. For sure.

Kolby Sorensen [03:37:01] We're very complicated creatures.

John Dehlin [03:37:03] For sure. Yeah. And so you reach this really dark moment before you get transferred to Italy, is that right?

Kolby Sorensen [03:37:13] No, I was in Washington is when I started therapy. It was during my last transfer in Washington. I didn't know that at the time, but that's when I. Or no, it was the one just before that when I had started therapy and it was the same around the same time. Like during that time is when I officially said I don't believe the church is true, but I Was like, of course still going to go to this therapist. Because I knew I needed therapy. I knew a lot of my thoughts were not healthy. And I knew that trying to say, I can manage that on my own would not be smart or safe. And so I was aware of that enough to. It was the best remedy I knew I had for the time. And I plan to, of course, continue therapy when I'm home, which I'm doing now. And it's wonderful.

Emotional Toll, Missionary Wellbeing, and Italy Assignment

John Dehlin [03:37:53] So, really quick, in your experience, can you envision missionaries, Mormon missionaries, in the same situation as yours, experiencing suicidal ideation completely?

Kolby Sorensen [03:38:09] And there were times where I did. They were never. I don't know if I ever dwelled on the much, but there are definitely moments where it was, this would just be better if this was all over. And that's not a place you should ever be. And if any one of you are or know someone who is, please reach out and give them the love and support. Let them know that people care about them. Help them get the help they need. Like, no one's alone. And having someone there definitely makes a big difference. Like, that's something that's extremely important.

John Dehlin [03:38:43] And if some apologist is just saying, you're just being dramatic, it's not that bad.

Kolby Sorensen [03:38:47] It is that bad. I knew many missionaries who were faithful and struggling with mental health. I knew many missionaries who weren't faithful, struggling with mental health. It's a huge problem within the mission field. Everyone, I'd say almost every missionary I met at some level had some form of anxiety because even there's this missionary, the sister who was like, full all in, believed in the church, was super, like, chatty and bubbly. But even, like, if you could get her talking, you'd see that she had tons of worries about not being good enough. And the mission field is a field that sets you up to always think, I'm supposed to be being better and I'm not being good enough.

Gerardo Sumano [03:39:23] Yep.

Kolby Sorensen [03:39:23] It's.

John Dehlin [03:39:24] So the scrupulosity can really. A mission can really stoke religious OCD or scrupulosity.

Kolby Sorensen [03:39:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:39:31] Yeah. When I was talking to this Stake High Council source, I have about a third of all Mormon missionaries returning early. Now, you hear also, I heard there and also here on Reddit that many of these missionaries that are returning home early have lost their faith. But like you, they can't. They either can't tell their mission president or their companions or anyone else, or they do tell them, but they don't want the word to get around in the stake or in their families that they lost their faith. And so a lot of faith crises are being masked as anxiety or depression. Can you talk about that at all?

Kolby Sorensen [03:40:16] One of the things I noticed a funny comparison is once I realized I lost my faith, I could start picking out other missionaries who I thought had as well. It was like, if you've ever read the Scarlet Letter, the main character talks about when she's branded with the A, that she starts to notice other people who she believes are like her and weren't an adulterer. And I very much felt the same way. As soon as I branded myself as an apostate, I started to look around and realize, hey, this, you seem a lot like me. I'm not going to directly ask you, but I'm starting to have a feeling that there's some other things, things that you say and patterns you follow that remind me of me. And so there's a lot of missionaries I remember interacting with and meeting that. I'm like, yeah, I don't think you're all in. You're not. You're halfway there and being able to kind of start to notice that it's more prevalent. But it's very much a hush hush topic. It's not talked about at all.

Gerardo Sumano [03:41:07] And sometimes he doesn't have to do

Kolby Sorensen [03:41:08] unless you're sent home for it.

Gerardo Sumano [03:41:09] Yeah, sometimes he doesn't have to do with obedience. Right. Because there could be a very disobedient missionary who really believed the church is true.

Kolby Sorensen [03:41:17] Oh yeah, I, one of my favorite missionaries was like that. He was, he is disembird as can be. He went to the movies, he would do other stuff than what he should be doing throughout the week. But I'd say he was one of the most Christ like ones I knew because he loved actually serving people and not doing it to try to teach them. He was there just to actually help them. And he genuinely cared about and loved the church. He was one of probably the most genuine believers I met and he was extremely disobedient. Like obedience is not a factor within. As much as the church wants to paint it that way. It's not a factor about whether or not you believe.

John Dehlin [03:41:53] Yeah, yeah, this may, this was. I was gonna ask about this. This may be a rare personality type or scenario, but I'm imagining there are Mormon kids growing up who read the CS letter in high school who lose their faith, but they're just playing along to avoid disappointing mom and dad. Or they're told they'll get a car when they get off their mission or

Kolby Sorensen [03:42:16] they'll pay for college some or they

John Dehlin [03:42:18] want to be able to date a Mormon girl and they don't want to be rejected so they can, you know, so, so I can imagine and I know this exists kids raised Mormon that go on missions as full non believers but just play the role and they don't even. People have different. People are along a spectrum in terms of conscientiousness or guilt. And there are kids that are teens who are like, oh, I can lie if it's, if it's an unjust commandment or rule or if an unjust system, I'll lie all day long and not even feel guilty about it.

Gerardo Sumano [03:42:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:42:56] So I can imagine there are in every Mormon mission some missionaries that are just lying the whole time that don't feel tormented about it like you did and who are just playing along to, to, to wait off their time until they get home and get the girl and get the car and don't disappoint the parents and, and they just lie all the way.

Kolby Sorensen [03:43:16] Yeah. Again, I don't know for sure, but there's another missionary who I think that was kind of the boat he was in because he was a self proclaimed disobedient, full on missionary. He broke as many rules as possible, almost some of which that I'm shocked he even got away with. But I don't think they gamify it.

John Dehlin [03:43:37] In other words, they don't get all.

Kolby Sorensen [03:43:39] It's like if you're within the, the group of disobedient missionaries, you find your way into that. It's kind of like it becomes like a flex like oh yeah, you, you did this? I unplugged TIWI and went on a trip to Seattle, Washington outside of our mission area. You did that? I went in a plane, like stuff like that.

John Dehlin [03:43:53] Is that a GPS tracker?

Kolby Sorensen [03:43:56] Do you guys not know what TIWI is?

John Dehlin [03:43:57] I have no idea.

Kolby Sorensen [03:43:58] So TIWI is a fun little box that you can find any drive around in Salt Lake. You can find a missionary vehicle by seeing if there's a weird little box in the bottom left or bottom right. And it monitors on the back, under the bumper, in the front, like it's on the front window on the inside.

John Dehlin [03:44:14] Okay.

Kolby Sorensen [03:44:15] It's like above the dash and it monitors your speed and location at all times and reports back. There are also ways around that that they can't get rid of because there are ways to unplug it and then you can go wherever you want. And missionaries have done that before. I knew missionaries in the Tacoma Mission. So I drove a. Not drove up To Seattle. And I know some who went all the way down to Portland for a party. It becomes. It's very much like a game. Like, how much can I get away with without getting caught? It becomes like a thrill. Adrenaline.

John Dehlin [03:44:41] You know about this?

Gerardo Sumano [03:44:42] Yeah. I mean, on my mission, we didn't have cars, but it was. It was common for. For missionaries to go out of the mission. And my mission president was something that he. He would go. He didn't care too much about movies and stuff, but he would go crazy if he found out missionaries would go out of the mission limits. Yeah, that's happened often.

Kolby Sorensen [03:45:03] It's a good way to get sent home for a lot of missions. Like some mission presidents. If that's what you do, you're. You're gone. Just like that.

John Dehlin [03:45:11] Yeah. Wow. It's called Tiwi.

Kolby Sorensen [03:45:13] Tiwi. Ti. W. I T Wee. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:45:17] Yeah. I served pre T Wee.

Gerardo Sumano [03:45:19] Yep. For sure.

Kolby Sorensen [03:45:20] It sucks because you can't go, hey, you can only go five miles above the speed limit. And so, like, it's so painful sometimes

John Dehlin [03:45:27] because, wait, does it beep or like,

Kolby Sorensen [03:45:29] yell, check your speed. And it reports back to the mission office. And if you get too many, they'll take away your card to be able to activate and drive. It sucks because you'll be in situations where it's like, I need to be going faster than this. Like, if you're on the highway, it's like you need to go the speed of traffic and everyone's going 70 and you're stuck going 60, just chugging along. It's like, this is ridiculous. Or if you need to speed up to avoid someone trying to hit you. Or if you need to break heavily to avoid. Yeah, just stuff like. It's a weird. It's weird. It's all about control.

Gerardo Sumano [03:46:01] I mean, the driving thing I kind of understand. Yeah, I will say about safety, but

Kolby Sorensen [03:46:08] there definitely is a safety factor for. And I think that's good because there's some missionaries who are absolute idiot drivers and they need tiwi for the life of them. Otherwise they would have been in five car accidents.

Gerardo Sumano [03:46:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:46:17] Or like, back over people.

Kolby Sorensen [03:46:19] Yeah, no, no, for sure. Like, even, like the. You have to back as a missionary. And like, I kind of get that because, you know, there's some people who just really don't know how to back up. And I'm glad they have a backer backing them up because if not, I think they would hit someone so really quickly.

John Dehlin [03:46:33] I've. I've mentioned this before in other episodes, but it's kind of weird to Think about the disobedient missionaries on your mission. When you're our super righteous, faithful missionary, you look on them as like the dumb, disobedient, unrighteous ones.

Kolby Sorensen [03:46:49] Yeah. I think they're doing that and wasting the Lord's time. How dare they.

John Dehlin [03:46:54] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [03:46:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:46:55] Is lower, is lesser than.

Gerardo Sumano [03:46:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:46:57] Now, looking back, for sure, some of them saw through it at a young age, knew it wasn't true, and were just forced to play along. And they were actually the smart ones, 100%.

Kolby Sorensen [03:47:11] And at the end, once I decided I. Once I realized I didn't believe, I obviously became one of those disobeyed missionaries because I was like, look, if Joseph Smith can get away with breaking his rules, I'm going to break the mission rules. Why does it matter? This isn't true anyway.

John Dehlin [03:47:21] But what rules did you break?

Kolby Sorensen [03:47:23] I watched a couple movies. Oh, yeah,

Gerardo Sumano [03:47:29] he had a. The drive for sure.

Kolby Sorensen [03:47:31] No, I never. I never.

Gerardo Sumano [03:47:33] The Google Drive.

Kolby Sorensen [03:47:34] Oh, the Google Drive. Yeah. No, I had. I got access to that again. I watched all Rick and Morty on my mission.

John Dehlin [03:47:39] I cannot imagine watching Rick and Morty on your mission. They say F bombs.

Kolby Sorensen [03:47:45] Oh, we. No, it's weird. But it was like, one thing I realized, like, my mindset is like, I started to realize I was feeling happier and healthier doing these normal person things. And I started to realize the missionaries who are in a better mental health state are the disobedient ones because they're not taking this too seriously. They're not taking themselves too seriously. They're not concerned about exact obedience 24 7. So they're in a healthier mindset because that's true. They're just doing normal people things.

Gerardo Sumano [03:48:14] That's true.

John Dehlin [03:48:16] That's mind blowing.

Kolby Sorensen [03:48:17] Yeah.

Deciding to Come Home Early from the Mission

John Dehlin [03:48:20] All right, so you. So you're trying to decide. So tell us about Italy if you want.

Kolby Sorensen [03:48:28] Yeah. So I stopped believing I was in the next transfer. And then eventually I get the call like, hey, you're going to Italy. I was like, cool, let's go. Because, you know, Italy. It's Italy. How can you not be excited for that?

John Dehlin [03:48:39] Yeah. Yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [03:48:40] So no matter what, you're going to be a little pumped. But yeah, I got on an airplane, packed up and went. I had a pretty cool companion. My first interaction made me pretty upset because it was with the AP there, who very much immediately said, like, what you've learned in your last. This is not his exact wording, but the basic message was like, what you've learned in your last mission. The way you did it was all wrong. You have to do it the way we do it here. Which was, I found out later, was the opposite of what the mission president even wanted. He was saying, no, we need to learn from these missionaries who just got here because they have a better. Like, they have valuable things that we can learn from as well. But I had a pretty distasteful experience with the ap. But then after that, I mean, I went to Trieste. It's like, all the way out in the corner on Italy. It's like, past Venice to the east more. And just kind of a nice small town, really beautiful there.

John Dehlin [03:49:46] So I can imagine saying. And this is just in my mind, I actually could never have done this, but, like, oh, man, free vacation in Italy for a year. Nope. That was just like, chill out and bear my testimony about, you know, heavenly Father loves you and Jesus being, be kind to people, not emphasize all the truth claims I didn't believe. And just, like, work as little as possible, whatever companions I could convince, work as little as possible. Just enjoy as much of a awesome, sweet country as I could.

Kolby Sorensen [03:50:17] That was the plan.

John Dehlin [03:50:19] What happened?

Kolby Sorensen [03:50:22] I had a friend reach out to me. Well, actually, I reached out to him and started talking to him. Eventually, I told him, like, I knew before I left even that he was kind of losing faith in the church. And so I asked him about it. He's like, yeah, I don't believe. And I told him, all right, I don't either. Surprise, surprise. And I started talking about it. And he said something that was really impactful to me. It was. It came off as harsh at the time, but it was kind of like the kick in the butt I needed is like, dude, how can you, like, live with yourself knowing that you're lying to all these people? How can you. How can you do that? And that was when, like, the. I guess the morality of it for me really set in, of I wasn't comfortable doing that. And I started to realize how uncomfortable it made me in lessons. And eventually it got to the point where I was like, okay, coming home needs to be considered as a genuine option. And I started considering it. And eventually I was like, okay, this is what I need to do. I made a draft for my parents of what I was going to say, and then on a P Day, I sent it.

Gerardo Sumano [03:51:31] Were you telling them that you lost your faith?

Kolby Sorensen [03:51:33] Yeah, I was. I was honest. I was like, look, I don't have much of a faith anymore. My mental health is not in a good place. I am going to tell my mission president that I want to go home.

John Dehlin [03:51:44] This is in an Email?

Kolby Sorensen [03:51:45] No, we were allowed to use Facebook messenger to message our family.

John Dehlin [03:51:48] Facebook Messenger. Okay.

Kolby Sorensen [03:51:50] Yeah. And at that point I was messaging friends as well. But you weren't supposed to do. But I was like again, did your,

Gerardo Sumano [03:51:56] did your companion care?

Kolby Sorensen [03:51:57] No, Italy was like way more chill rule wise. Like a lot of people would message friends throughout the week even though you're not supposed to and yeah, stuff like that. Which again I think is good to do because like you need those social interactions with people that you're close with.

Gerardo Sumano [03:52:09] Yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [03:52:10] But yeah, I messaged them and anxiously waited for a response.

John Dehlin [03:52:18] Yeah. How long did you have to wait?

Kolby Sorensen [03:52:20] Only like five minutes. Like I had just gotten off the phone call. I was debating telling her or not while I was calling and I couldn't get myself to do it and say it. And then I was like, okay, maybe I won't. And it just kind of hit me like no, this is, this is what I need to do. Like this is what's going to be healthiest and best for me. So I just sent it as a text instead and waited for a response. Watched the little three dots pop up on messenger which are like oh, I shouldn't have watched those keep popping up and disappearing. Knowing that she was typing and editing and retyping. It just took, it felt like eternity before I got a response. And her basic like what she wanted me to do was to give it one last chance kind of thing because we had Bednar coming to the mission on that upcoming Saturday and she's like, just try to make it out. Till then, really pray and study about it again and fully commit yourself and then see if you think it's true. And I was like.

John Dehlin [03:53:20] Because he can say the magic thing.

Kolby Sorensen [03:53:22] Yeah, exactly. And I was like, you know what? Maybe he can. Like I'm not willing to throw away any possibility so I will. I. I stopped doing any apostate things and I started studying more my scriptures again and not Zelph on the shelf videos on YouTube. Love them.

John Dehlin [03:53:40] So time to tag Zel on the shelf.

Kolby Sorensen [03:53:42] Yeah, I was. You're. I like trying to listen to your guys videos but they're just long and hard to sneak in listens to. So the shelf was good. It was like this one. Exactly. My bad everyone. The shelf was good because it was very much more quick and consumable information. It was like 40 minutes which was 3040 minutes which was. Well I had time for. I had time to sneak that in while like I wanted so badly at the time I was on my mission to listen to the Robert Rittner episodes. But I was like, I don't have time. There's no way. There's no way I can sneak this in. Yeah, I'll just wait till I'm home to do this. Yeah, but it was one of, like, the first episodes. Let's do it at home. Anyways, I committed again. I stopped watching Zelf on the Shelf apostate videos. I started only reading from the Book of Mormon. I started studying Italian more again, even. And then I prayed earnestly, like, again. Because I had been like, very much the Dear Heavenly Father, we thank thee for this food. We thank thee for the blah, blah, blah, name just Christ. Amen kind of prayers. Because I was like, I didn't believe so right. I did. Like, I had another, like, okay, look, if this church is true, please let there be something, anything at all to help me know that. And if it is true, I will stay and I'll be the most committed missionary I can be for you. I'll be the perfect tool in your hands to convert people. And then we went and Elder Bednar gave a talk.

John Dehlin [03:55:11] Did it blow your spiritual socks off?

Gerardo Sumano [03:55:13] Nope.

Kolby Sorensen [03:55:14] It was the same stuff as always. I even got my. He did like a. I liked how he did it. He did very much like a. He interacted with the audience. He let us ask questions and talk to him, and he responded.

Gerardo Sumano [03:55:23] Did he give his talk about inspired question versus?

Kolby Sorensen [03:55:28] Yeah, yeah, that's what he started with. And even.

John Dehlin [03:55:30] Oh, he did.

Kolby Sorensen [03:55:30] Yeah, that's what he started with. It was like. And even before we went in, he gave, like, these lists of things that he wanted us to read through. And he said, don't take notes. Take inspired notes. I was like, okay, that's what I'm gonna do then.

John Dehlin [03:55:42] Like, that's kind of gaslighty y.

Kolby Sorensen [03:55:45] It was like my exact plan, though. I was like, I'm gonna take just inspired notes instead of notes on what you say. Cause that's what you're saying to do. I'll read through these talks you sent and want to.

John Dehlin [03:55:52] What are inspired required notes?

Kolby Sorensen [03:55:53] Basically just writing down promptings instead of just what they're saying.

Gerardo Sumano [03:55:57] Like, don't write.

Kolby Sorensen [03:55:57] What it really is is it's him rebranding. Writing down good notes and what sticks out to you as something spiritual. That's how my perception of it was.

Gerardo Sumano [03:56:07] But then if you. If you also know what Elder Oaks has said in other times to me, it's kind of like this message of don't record us when we are in this. Private meetings recorded and you recorded yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [03:56:22] The audio quality is so bad, but

John Dehlin [03:56:24] because it was a missionary recording Apostles.

Kolby Sorensen [03:56:27] Yeah. I even, like, I said something to him. He cracked a joke because I was talking about how I. I take already, like, a weird way of taking notes. He's like, ah, you have your own form of hieroglyphs, like Joseph Smith or something like that. And got a good chuckle. I was like, this is so funny.

John Dehlin [03:56:42] You.

Kolby Sorensen [03:56:42] If you have any discernment, you should know that I'm apostate. Come on, man. But I chuckled with it. It was kind of a funny joke. And I sat back down. I was like, okay, that's that.

John Dehlin [03:56:51] He didn't spiritually sniff you out?

Kolby Sorensen [03:56:53] Nope, not at all. I tried to give him chances to as well. Like, I was like, I'm gonna make this a fair game. If you have the gift of discernment, I'm setting you up for this. Okay. Like, I'm giving you a easy, easy, soft pitch. Come on, make a home run. And nothing, like, I mean, not surprisingly, but yeah. So that. That was kind of like. I was like, okay, that's that. And on the way home, it took a while. It took a bit of the train ride, but eventually I told my companion, like, hey, I'm planning to go home, man. He was super chill about it, too. He was like, do you want to talk about why? I was like, no, it's just personal stuff. I don't really know where I'm at with my beliefs, and I don't really believe in the church, though. And so right now, for me, I think what's best is to go home. He's like, okay, yeah. He's like, yeah, if that's what's best for you, then that's like, what you need to do. He was super, super cool and supportive about that, which I really appreciate. He's. I was lucky enough to have all amazing companions. I'd say all of them were. Are people that I still try to reach out to and talk to because they're awesome.

Gerardo Sumano [03:57:48] But did he not ask you what your concerns were?

Kolby Sorensen [03:57:52] He asked what they were, and I said, I'm not really wanting to talk about them. He said, okay, that's okay. Like, he wasn't pushy about it at all. Once I said I wasn't interested in talking about it, it was like, that was that for the conversation.

Gerardo Sumano [03:58:05] And that was nice of you, not really wanting to share.

Kolby Sorensen [03:58:10] No, because I was like. I even said. I was like, look, I don't want to push it on you if these are things that would be difficult for you. And it was like something I want to work through myself. And that's still my mindset now because I have friends on missions who know I've gone home. I'm like, if they ask me, I'm going to be honest, but I'm not going to by any means try to force any of this down their throat or try to, like, slyly tell them about it, because I don't think I do more harm than good. If it's not something they're interested in, there's no point in trying to do it because it's just going to cause tension in our friendship and relationship. And it's not going to. They're just going to take it in a bad way. So if it's something they want, it needs to be their choice. I think they deserve to know the truth about it, but they have to choose it. I don't think it's my place or my right at all to, like, force send it to them.

John Dehlin [03:58:55] Yeah, that's classy. I will say it speaks volumes. It really needs to be called out. Noted that this man is called to be your leader on the mission. He's your mission president, and you had a couple and you never felt like you could be open and honest with him about your situation. And that's a real problem because for

Kolby Sorensen [03:59:18] both, I knew it would either be chastisement or I just get sent home. And at the. At the first, like, at the time in, like, Washington, I loved the leader there. He was like a really kind, loving man. But it was a very much like, I knew the reaction would happen. It would just be. I'd probably get chastised or sent home. And I was just like, I don't want the hassle of that.

John Dehlin [03:59:35] And like you said earlier, it sucks

Kolby Sorensen [03:59:36] that you can't be open about that because these are your. They're told to be like, your parents like to try to see you as. They're told to see you as like, their. Their children and like to watch over you in that way. So having that as your leader, but not feeling comfortable talking about serious concerns with them, I mean, it shows the. The difficulty of the situation. It really speaks volumes.

John Dehlin [04:00:01] They hold your passport.

Kolby Sorensen [04:00:02] They didn't do that, but they. They didn't do that.

John Dehlin [04:00:05] Well, in my. They hold your passport, but whether it's faith issues, physical health issues, or mental health issues, it's a real problem. When the person who determines your destiny determines your fate, you don't feel safe and comfortable.

Kolby Sorensen [04:00:21] Our mission nurse in Italy was the assistant to the Mission was the assistant was the mission president's wife. And she. What made me. This is something that genuinely upsets me. So she had no background in nursing or medicine. And so like there's a missionary who got injured one time and she was like, nope, don't. You can't go to a doctor. Like, you guys just gotta stay focused on working. And eventually he just did anyways and she got mad and then his dad called and she tried to get mad at him and he simmered her down. The mission president was more on the side of the dad. He, he was a lot more, I think rational and chill in that aspect. But just having. That's something that's upset me now too. Looking back at stuff is like having leaders in positions and dealing with stuff they're not qualified to deal with, like bishops talking to kids about sexual stuff and being their counselor about stuff like this or having someone as your mission nurse who has no expertise within that field. That's not. Who should be in charge of that. You should have someone who is a professional and has studied that. You know, you, you need an expert in that field for that kind of stuff. Like yeah, just kind of makes sense.

John Dehlin [04:01:24] Yeah, well.

Gerardo Sumano [04:01:25] And they're the ones that decide if you can go to the doctor or not. That's kind of disgusting.

Kolby Sorensen [04:01:32] Is that word a lot? But it's, it's just not right. Like if you think you need to go to a doctor, you're the person who should choose. Okay, I'm going to a doctor. Yeah, like that's, that should very much be a in your hands kind of thing.

John Dehlin [04:01:44] Thing. So you let your parents know. They said, wait, Bednar didn't give, didn't fix the problem.

Kolby Sorensen [04:01:50] Nope.

John Dehlin [04:01:51] And then you knew and you told your companion.

Kolby Sorensen [04:01:53] I told my companion Ms. And my parents. I'm like, hey, I'm like my mission president now. And I started cooking up a response and I got some help on good old Reddit.

John Dehlin [04:02:04] Okay, so by this point you're on the ex Mormon Reddit.

Kolby Sorensen [04:02:07] Yep, ex Mormon Reddit. I made a post, I labeled myself as the apostate missionary, I believe or something like that. And I was like, hey, I'm about to go home. Advice on like how to make sure, like it's clear to my mission present. Like that's why I want to do any tips. Because I was like, I can't ask my parents because they're not going to have advice. Their advice is to stay there. The only non member relative I have never went on a mission, so I don't I kind of talk to her about some stuff, but not much. But they gave me some advice and gave me some advice.

John Dehlin [04:02:39] Did X Woman Reddit give good advice?

Kolby Sorensen [04:02:41] Oh, yeah, it did. They gave me a copy of the mission present handbook and there's a section that's like a digital copy that's important to read because you learn their tactics of what they're going to try to do if you try to go home. It's also on that other Google Drive I talked about as well, the handbook I found out later. But because of that I'm like, okay, I know what he's going to try to say. So I made it clear in my outline. Like I outlined the text and wrote out. I was like, can you talk about

Gerardo Sumano [04:03:07] what are the tactics that mission presidents are supposed to use?

Kolby Sorensen [04:03:11] I should have read through that before I came here. So I knew them exact. But I remember one of them is like having you talk to the mission president's wife instead and her giving you counsel, talking to him about your issues and him giving you counsel, getting an easier kind of like assignment kind of thing. Like you can become an office or like a tech elder or even an office elder. I was already a tech elder, but having basically a more laid back assignment

Gerardo Sumano [04:03:37] were this under a section that it said missionaries who questioned the church or missionaries who wanted missionaries.

Kolby Sorensen [04:03:44] This was missionaries who just wanted to go home and check.

Gerardo Sumano [04:03:45] Okay. Okay.

Kolby Sorensen [04:03:46] And then like some of the ones were like the talking to them about their issues was specific to them having questions.

John Dehlin [04:03:52] Okay, wait, so there's a guide for

Kolby Sorensen [04:03:54] mission presidents on how to handle missionaries,

John Dehlin [04:03:56] on how to handle missionaries that want to go home or lose their faith.

Kolby Sorensen [04:03:59] Yeah, I want to see this.

John Dehlin [04:04:01] I've never seen this before.

Kolby Sorensen [04:04:02] I'll pull it up after. But it's very.

John Dehlin [04:04:04] We'll include this in the show notes. Jim.

Kolby Sorensen [04:04:06] Yeah, it's a very much at every turn, there's no such thing as letting them easily go home. It's a very much try to fight them at every corner kind of thing. Which my mission president didn't do, which I was extremely thankful for. But I also think it was probably because of my. Because you were prepared, kind of very bold and brazen approach to it. I was very blunt and straightforward. But you could get an easier assignment. You could even be told to take like not like a week off but like basically like take it easy, don't worry as much like just kind of chill around more and enjoy the culture more. Don't worry about teaching as much. Try to stay in your proselytizing. Clothes as much as you can, but don't be afraid to relax.

John Dehlin [04:04:43] Like, wait, that's what your mission.

Kolby Sorensen [04:04:46] That's what the mission.

Gerardo Sumano [04:04:46] That's on the missionary and the mission president handbook. One of the rules, one of the suggestions.

John Dehlin [04:04:52] Suggestions for is to let the missionary chill out.

Gerardo Sumano [04:04:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:04:56] And not be so stressful.

Kolby Sorensen [04:04:57] Easier. Yeah. You know, like, have actually, like a healthier work life balance maybe.

John Dehlin [04:05:01] But I mean, that's almost compassionate because.

Gerardo Sumano [04:05:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:05:04] No, it can be devastating to go home early.

Kolby Sorensen [04:05:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:05:08] So to have them encourage a missionary to kind of chill out and not.

Kolby Sorensen [04:05:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:05:12] Not leave, but just kind of try and relax and enjoy things.

Kolby Sorensen [04:05:15] And that was one.

John Dehlin [04:05:16] That's actually. I like that.

Gerardo Sumano [04:05:17] It's probably pretty new, right?

Kolby Sorensen [04:05:19] Yeah, it's pretty. I think it's pretty new. It's also specifically, also in context, like missionaries who are struggling with some mental health stuff and won't go home because it was basically. Basically saying, like, yeah, let them take easy. Which I think is good because the mission is definitely its own form of hell, of high pressure, high demands, high expectations, just everything cranked up to the max. And so being able to have that, I think is something missionary should utilize more. But in my outline, I was basically like, look, I plan to go home because I have questions about the church and because I am struggling with my mental health because of it. I am not interested in trying to stay any longer to sort it out. I'm not interested in having a final interview. I'm not interested in talking to your wife about my issues. I'm not interested in becoming. Having an easier assignment for a bit. So he knew that you had read no. Yeah, he did.

John Dehlin [04:06:10] I was like, you were armed to the teeth.

Kolby Sorensen [04:06:11] He was like, have you read any. He's like, have you talked to any anti Mormons? I was like, I'm not gonna word it like that. Plus I was like, I read it from your own document. I was like, no. I told him like, yeah, I read it in the missionary in your. In the mission president's handbook. And like, how did you get that? I was like, oh, it's from other missionaries. Which was partially true. I got one copy of it from other missionaries by new saying anti Mormon. Probably at that point, I was very much in the mindset of, like, I'm getting home, whatever the quickest route is I'm gonna do because I need to get out of here. So I was like, if you say jump, I'll say, how high? Long as it means I get to leave this place. So I was like, Wow. I was very sure. I'm like, I want to go home. I want the quickest plane out of here you can. And it was actually really quick. I was shocked because I've heard of so many horror stories where they. They hold hostage their passport and they try to put out the plane as far as possible. I got a plane for that week, which, from what I know is. I think that's record time.

John Dehlin [04:07:02] They want you out of there.

Kolby Sorensen [04:07:03] Yeah. Yeah. But they've. I made it very clear I wanted out. Even during when he gave me a phone call and wanted to talk about. He's like, are you willing to talk about your concerns? I was like, no, not at all.

John Dehlin [04:07:13] Wow.

Kolby Sorensen [04:07:13] And it was like, are you willing to meet. Because I mentioned mental health. He's like, are you willing to meet with a mission therapist and talk to them before I go?

John Dehlin [04:07:19] I was like, I've been there.

Kolby Sorensen [04:07:20] I was like, one. I was like, been there. I'm like, no. Plus, I kind of saw that as, okay, this is just a tactic to get me to stay more. I'm like, nope. But I plan to do therapy once I'm home. And he offered me LDS services. I'm like, no, I think I'll find my own therapist. And as he started to ask questions, it very much felt like he was trying to lead me into saying my reasons. More so are mental health than doubts. And I. I'm getting the benefit of the doubt. And saying that he did that because that was the quickest way to get me home. I'm guessing if I would have not said mental health at all, I'm probably. I bet there's probably a lot more hoops he would have had to jump through.

Gerardo Sumano [04:07:51] Yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [04:07:52] And so I. I'm getting the bet. He was a really kind man, and he was a smart dude. He used to be a lawyer. So I think he knew that. I think he knew that the quickest way for me out getting out, which is what I wanted, was to take more of a mental health approach, which was true. It was just still kind of leaving out more of the doubt portion, even though that was. Yeah, there. But I give him the benefit of that doubt. I think. My guess is he did that just to be able to help me leave quicker. Because I've heard of so many horror stories where they hold hostage the passport. Some were like, yeah, if they try to do that, just buy your own plane ticket. You're an adult.

Gerardo Sumano [04:08:25] But, yeah, I've thought about. I've talked about this early in other. Another episode where, yeah, it's Kind of. It's a. It's a long. It can be a long process because it's not the mission president. He's not the one that decides or makes the final decision whether a missionary goes home or not. He has to go through the area presidency, and area presidency has to go through Salt Lake.

Kolby Sorensen [04:08:52] Very political process.

Gerardo Sumano [04:08:53] They have to talk to your stake president back home, and they kind of like all have to be on agreement to let you go back home.

Kolby Sorensen [04:09:01] Yeah. I was like, I got a speedrun that process. It was pretty awesome. And I did that. I chose like, the worst time to try to. But I mean, it worked out. So I did it during the week of transfers is when I. It was the same day I left was when they got new machines, dictionaries coming in.

John Dehlin [04:09:14] You were prepared, man. I was getting out. Is the Reddit post that you made or post still up?

Kolby Sorensen [04:09:20] It is.

John Dehlin [04:09:21] So we'll. We'll have Jen include links to that.

Kolby Sorensen [04:09:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:09:25] So that people can go back and read all the suggestions.

Kolby Sorensen [04:09:27] There's one of the. I don't remember who it was. I think she's like, consider me your apostate grandma. And she was just like the super kind lady who was like, hey, I love you. Stay happy. And I was like, that's what I needed.

John Dehlin [04:09:38] Yeah. Shout out to ex Mormon Reddit. That really comes.

Kolby Sorensen [04:09:40] Shout out ex Mormon Reddit. Wholesome people. Great advice.

John Dehlin [04:09:45] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [04:09:46] That's awesome.

John Dehlin [04:09:47] That's great. Well, cool. So you're so your Miss Prison got you out of there.

Honorable Release and Returning Home

Kolby Sorensen [04:09:52] Yeah. And I told him, like on the phone calls, like, I'm gonna start packing. I was very clear that I was just ready to go. So I started packing already. And then, like, I think the same day or the next day, he's like, yeah, I got you a plane ticket for Wednesday. You'll come, you'll leave to the mission office on Tuesday on the Freccia Rosso, which is like the fastest train in Italy. It's super fun to go on.

John Dehlin [04:10:12] And that's what you're. Where you're posting to the Mormon Stories podcast.

Kolby Sorensen [04:10:15] Yeah. So on the way back, I. I factory reset my. I saved everything to the cloud, like all my pictures and stuff, and I factory reset my phone because I'm like, I don't have any need for Moss anymore. And so on the way back, I'm connected to Wi Fi, so I just pop onto YouTube. I was gonna. I think I was gonna finally watch a Mormon Stories full video. And then I see that there's a live stream going on and it happens to be really topical to what I was about to go through, which was, how do you talk to and, like, tell your family about you wanting to leave the church? I was like, hey, this is.

John Dehlin [04:10:47] Oh, that was me and Margi.

Kolby Sorensen [04:10:48] Yeah, that was when you guys did that video. And it was.

John Dehlin [04:10:51] Yeah, I remember that.

Kolby Sorensen [04:10:52] I joined and started listening, and I commented on the video, and then I didn't even finish watching. I didn't get to the part where you actually responded to my comment because my companions started talking to someone else. And I was like, okay, I should, like, at least pretend to be involved to make this less awkward. And I got a message from you. I was in, like, a weird, paranoid mindset where I was. I didn't know how you knew me or that I was going home. So my cause I didn't know anyone had seen that comment on the video. So my mindset was, this is a member trying to out me. I was so paranoid. I thought that's what was going on until I was like, wait, this name sounds familiar. And I clicked onto your profile and then saw somewhere on it, like, associated with Mormon stories. And that's when I actually responded to you even. I was like, oh, wait, Kolby, chill out. And I started talking and yeah, said that you guys wanted me here. I saw the clip where the comment. You actually responded to it, and I was like, oh, wow, that was really, like. It was just, like, really sweet. Just seeing someone, like, excited and actually wanting to hear my story because I was at a time and a space where I was like. It didn't feel like anyone would want to hear about that, especially my family, because it's like, you just kind of don't want to know because it's. It'll kind of hurt some, you know, no matter what. Like, I get their perspective where, like, hearing my story definitely. I mean, like, would be painful for them. And so hearing that someone was actually, like, wanted to hear my side and not just this, not just characterize me as this or. That was really cool.

Gerardo Sumano [04:12:21] That's awesome. How did the release worked out?

Kolby Sorensen [04:12:26] I got released mostly to humor my parents.

John Dehlin [04:12:31] Honorably released.

Kolby Sorensen [04:12:32] Honorably released. Yeah, I was shocked. It was an honorable release. On the plane ride home, though, it was great. I watched Mortal Kombat and the Matrix. I, as soon as I was in the airport, passed, like, the terminal. I went to a bathroom. I had my, like, pajamas and normal clothes with. And I changed into them because I was like, I'm not wearing a suit. You took out dank pants.

Gerardo Sumano [04:12:52] What about the garments?

Kolby Sorensen [04:12:54] I think that was, like, the only underwear I had. So I had the ball. I think I might have had the top on still. Because I was like, I don't want to be disrespectful. I can't remember, but I was like, I'm. I'm like, I'm going home. I'm being comfortable. I put on sweats because I love sweats. They're super awesome. And I chilled. I was like, what movies do I want to watch? I was like, the Matrix is on here. I've never watched the Matrix. And that was, like, a cool movie and helped put even like, some stuff that I was going through into perspective.

John Dehlin [04:13:14] Yeah, like a fake crisis metaphor.

Kolby Sorensen [04:13:17] No, it's so cool looking at media and content now because there's so many things I know. So I'm like, oh, like, I never have seen it that way before now. I see it as, like, a narrative on my. Like, I don't know if that was a goal or not, but I see it as, like, a narrative on my own faith crisis. And, like, the things I went through, it was super cool. But then I get back, I change back into my clothes, put the tag back on, walk out, get honorably released. My stake president tries to ask about my concerns. I said, no, I think I'll figure them out on my own. And then I went home and been just figuring stuff out since there's so much still that I'm figuring out. I still don't know how to talk about tons of stuff, like my doubts with my family or, like, we're still figuring some of that dynamic out. Just the dynamic with my parents. Because, I mean, a lot changes when you leave the religion they brought you up in and one that they very much believe and cling on to. We used to try to talk about it, and every time we tried to talk about stuff, it ended in an argument. So we all kind of agreed, like, look, none of us are in the position to talk about this. It's healthier for us to not do this right now. And we've gone to the point where we can kind of talk about some things, which is great. And, like, it's just been, like, interesting figuring that dynamic out. And it's been hard with some stuff because, like, it hurts because I feel like they no longer see me as intelligent, I guess, because, like, there's just comments like, oh, well, you don't really know how to check what a good source is and stuff like that. Or, oh, well, you just gave up your faith. And it's like, Hey, I gave up my faith, but it's because of things in the way. And for you, a good source is anything that agrees with you. Anything that disagrees with you is a bad source. And just like, somebody's been learning critical thinking skills. Yeah, it was just having to brush that stuff off, but it's still hard because it hurts, like, knowing that that's kind of how my family sees me some and like, feeling like some of that respect that used to be there was lost. But it's just a method. It's just a process of figuring it out. Like, I don't know what the correct way is. I don't know what the path is. But I'm here for the journey and I'm going to try to do what I can do to keep having a healthy relationship with my amazing, wonderful, loving parents.

John Dehlin [04:15:27] So somebody here on YouTube writes, OMG, the irony quote. You don't know how to check a good source.

Kolby Sorensen [04:15:36] Oh, that's what I think. But I've gotten good at bite. I'm. I've. I've learned to be good at biting my tongue because I've learned. Like, I brought up even like one time.

Gerardo Sumano [04:15:43] Yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [04:15:43] Me and my dad were going about it, going at it a little bit and brought up like the Book of Abraham. And I was like, yeah, like, it doesn't match what Joseph Smith says. Like, that's not true because we don't have any copies of the papyri and. Or anything. I'm like, at that point, I was like, okay, there's no point in having a conversation.

Gerardo Sumano [04:15:58] Yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [04:15:59] Because you clearly don't even know what the gospel topic essays are and what they say there. And so it's like, it's just going to, it's going to escalate. Like, I clearly wasn't handling it well in a good, healthy, emotional way. And so it wasn't a good idea to talk about stuff like that. It's just. It's just learning to be okay with that and learning to be okay with. Maybe they talk about it later. Maybe it's never. As long as we can still have some mutual respect for each other. And something. I set boundaries, healthy boundaries.

Gerardo Sumano [04:16:27] Yeah. Something I realized with my parents is some that I found very interesting. And I don't know how to deal with it. And I don't even know if it's something I have to deal with. But when we talk about the church, because sometimes I feel like the only way to talk about the church with them is in their own terms. And I totally respect that. But they talk to me like if I was still believing.

Kolby Sorensen [04:16:53] Yeah. I had the time where like my mom was, like, I said something, she's like, see, you still believe a bit. I was like, let me stop you there. No, I don't. I just know what that mindset is.

Gerardo Sumano [04:17:03] Yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [04:17:04] Like, don't try to hold off hope of that. Like, I'm not gonna fall. I don't want to lead you on in that, you know, was kind of my mindset with it. It's like I just know how to talk about it in that way.

Gerardo Sumano [04:17:15] Yeah. And I heard about this concept. Brent Metcalfe Kauf mentioned that when he was talking to Richard Bushman and he met with him. He met him at an event, really. And then Richard Bushman was talking to him about Joseph. They were just talking about Joseph Smith and just, you know, different things about Book of Mormon historicity or translation. And Brent says that Richard Bushman would talk to him. Like, if Brent was still believing. Like, and, and it was. And I, I just felt very. I just related a lot to that because that's how my parents talk to me when we talk about the church. Like, they talk to me like if I was still believing, even though they know I'm gonna. Same sex marriage, definitely not going to. Working for Mormon stories and. Exactly. All the stuff. Yeah, exactly. But I don't know, it's just an interesting dynamic.

John Dehlin [04:18:18] You're basically ex Mormon Draco Malfoy. Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [04:18:25] Yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [04:18:25] Wait till my father hears about this.

Life After the Mission and Looking Ahead

John Dehlin [04:18:29] So when you think about your biggest fears about coming home early and how it's actually been, it sounds like it hasn't been as the, the. It hasn't met the worst fears.

Kolby Sorensen [04:18:41] No. Because my brain goes very worst case scenario, like apocalypse mode. And it very much wasn't. There's still like some things that are hard. I still, like, I'm still figuring out the relationship and the dynamic with my parents still. I've lost contact with a friend who's on their mission because they don't want anything to do with me right now. I hope they want to talk later in the future, but if not, like, I know that's their choice and that's okay. I have a friend who I've hung out with a couple times. She's still active and believes. And every time we meet up, she seems to forget that I don't believe anymore and has to double ask and reconfirm. Oh, so you really aren't going to church anymore. That's okay. It's like they, I don't know. They'll ask about why. And I don't like talking about it because I don't want to feel like I'm forcing it on them.

Gerardo Sumano [04:19:24] Yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [04:19:24] Like if you genuinely wanted to know, not just to try to resolve my concerns, I would talk about it. But your goal of talking about it is just to try to resolve my concerns and it's more likely to just lead into an argument. So I don't want anything to do with that. And I don't even really interact with my ward anymore. There's a couple members who I do because they're the cool. They're cool people. I liked them before I left, I still like them now. And so we've just kind of had like a bit of a friendship and talking and it's been good. Worst fears definitely didn't come true at all. And thank the heavens and everything in the universe for that.

John Dehlin [04:20:02] Yeah, for sure.

Kolby Sorensen [04:20:03] It was good.

John Dehlin [04:20:05] Well, I'm glad it wasn't worst case scenario. And I'm sure that for those who feel like they need to leave their missions early, maybe it'll give them hope that they shouldn't necessarily believe their worst case scenario based fears.

Kolby Sorensen [04:20:19] Yeah. Don't like hope for the best. Like some things might go wrong. Yeah. And it's gonna be hard. I'm not gonna lie and tell you it's gonna be easy. Like that's why I wanna talk about my mission experience. Cause I feel like all the RMS who come home always tell you about how great and wonderful it is and I just want to try to give a more honest approach to what it really is. But yeah, just do what's best for you. Like maybe my way isn't your way. There's. I started studying psychology more and there's this Carl, Carl Jung quote. I love where he's like, there is no, wait.

John Dehlin [04:20:50] Yeah, read it, read it. We love Carl Jung.

Kolby Sorensen [04:20:52] My path is not your path. Therefore I cannot teach you. The way is within us, but not in God's, nor in teachings, nor in laws. Within us is the way, the truth and the life. I'm not here to tell you what the best choice is. Maybe for you staying on your mission is what's right for you to do. Maybe coming home is what's right. I don't know that because I'm not you. You need to set your own path, your own course. Frank Sinatra. You gotta do it your way and be proud of it and go forth boldly, do what's best for you.

Gerardo Sumano [04:21:26] It's awesome.

John Dehlin [04:21:29] So many comments. I mean, first of all, we're Four and a half hours in. I didn't think we'd go four and a half hours. I haven't even gotten up from this chair. Neither of you? No. Gerardo, you got up. Yeah, but. Yeah. I have so many comments saying. Saying you're just brilliant. They can't believe you're freaking. 1920.

Kolby Sorensen [04:21:48] 2020.

John Dehlin [04:21:48] Yeah. Yeah. But so inspiring. I always tread lightly when a missionary reaches out to me because I don't want to blow up their lives. I. You know, part of me. Part of me has like, a bucket list of interviewing a Mormon missionary while he's on here. She are on their mission.

Kolby Sorensen [04:22:06] I think that would be really awesome to get, like, a companionship to be able to come on and just have like, a. A cool conversation about that. I think that'd make an amazing episode.

John Dehlin [04:22:14] And even if they've lost their faith, but I just know that it could blow up their lives, and I don't want to do that.

Kolby Sorensen [04:22:19] Yeah, no, it'd be. It'd put them at risk because even if you do it, like, anonymously and hide their identities, they could say something that lets it get tracked down, and then they'd get in trouble, and there's no point in dragging them into that,

John Dehlin [04:22:29] especially with all the apps the church is installing on their. On their devices.

Kolby Sorensen [04:22:32] Yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [04:22:33] We get that. We get. Gerardo and I both get BYU students a lot that want to do interviews, and we're just like.

Kolby Sorensen [04:22:39] We don't want to risk. Wait till you're out. Out of the system to do this where it's. Where it's safe for you to do so.

John Dehlin [04:22:45] Yeah. Yeah. So we. We. I. I didn't want to rush even. Even after you got home. Honestly, I didn't want to rush with you because I didn't want him. You know, you're living a home. I didn't want to compromise your safety either. Yeah, sometimes it's literal safety, and sometimes it's just, like, psychological safety.

Kolby Sorensen [04:23:05] That was one of the things I appreciate a lot you said, like, it was if you feel safe and ready to do that. And at the time I did. And honestly, looking back, I'm glad it got delayed because my emotions now are way different than they were even just a couple months ago when I got home, because I'm still going through very much a healing process. I, at that time was much more in the anger part of the grieving process. And this would have been a way different interview. I probably would have been a lot more upset and riled up about a lot of things. And had than I would now. I think it's interesting. I've thought about how would I answer things about this interview then and versus now, and I think this one would have been the better one for sure, because I think I'm in a healthier spot to talk about this stuff, and I have a much more hopeful and healing mindset than I did then. So I'm glad it got delayed. I think that's for that. That was for the best. It gave me the time I needed to work on myself some.

John Dehlin [04:23:55] See Gerardo. He's glad that I delayed it. Yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [04:23:58] It wasn't just your fault. That was my fault, too. I. I got caught up with work stuff and crazy work schedules.

John Dehlin [04:24:03] So Gerardo's like, john, do you ever answer your texts ever?

Gerardo Sumano [04:24:08] You do to me most of the time.

John Dehlin [04:24:10] 90% of the time, man. If I only answered 90% of your text, what about the rest of the world? Yeah. Anyway. Well, I'm glad. Well, and. And it's still a courageous thing that you're doing because you freaking live at home.

Kolby Sorensen [04:24:26] Yeah. No, it was awkward. Talking about.

John Dehlin [04:24:27] Your parents are still.

Kolby Sorensen [04:24:28] I told them that I was going to go, and that was like, an awkward conversation.

John Dehlin [04:24:31] Have they heard of Mormon stories?

Kolby Sorensen [04:24:33] Yeah, but probably. And I didn't say what podcast it was. I just said a podcast because I knew their perception of it. It was that they're just angry people ranting and they. They can leave the church, but they can't leave it alone kind of mindset. But it was like, I definitely had, like, a bit of stress going in just because of some stuff that they said. But, like, I understand their place. I'm not gonna judge them for it, and I understand their mindset. So I, like. I don't know. I was just kind of saying I'd like. It made me way more nervous. Like the cup. The week leading up to this. I was not nervous until then. I started getting, like, way anxious about this. And then once I got in here, all that went away. And it's.

Gerardo Sumano [04:25:09] You felt really.

Kolby Sorensen [04:25:09] Yeah, No, I felt the sp. The spirit touched me.

John Dehlin [04:25:13] I was a Jen being nice. What was it?

Kolby Sorensen [04:25:16] I think it was just walking in and realizing I was in an atmosphere where I could just be honest. I only have one friend who I've really talked. Two friends who I've talked honestly about the stuff with. And also knowing that, like, I'm gonna. I feel like I'm in a safe place. These are really awesome people who. Whose stories I love. Even Gerardo. That's how you say it.

Gerardo Sumano [04:25:38] Right.

Kolby Sorensen [04:25:39] His was one of the first podcasts I listened to and that was so moving for me. I think just knowing, going in with that, knowing that no matter what phase I was at with my process, knowing that this was a safe place to talk about it, that there would be acceptance for it, knowing that, you know, some people are at different stages of healing and that no matter what, that part of that story needs to get shared, and just knowing that my side of the story is appreciated is super cool.

John Dehlin [04:26:10] What about our fallen countenances, though?

Kolby Sorensen [04:26:12] Our fallen countenances? Oh, it's so dark and wearisome. I can feel upon myself even maybe that. Or it's just that I need some more water.

John Dehlin [04:26:21] Or a potty break.

Kolby Sorensen [04:26:22] Or a potty break. It's hard to confuse those things. It's easy to confuse those things with the spirit because the spirit's very vague.

John Dehlin [04:26:28] Either John's evil or I need to go to the bathroom and get a drink of water.

Kolby Sorensen [04:26:31] It's a 5050 flip a coin about it. We'll figure it out later.

John Dehlin [04:26:39] All right.

Kolby Sorensen [04:26:40] Oh, goodness.

John Dehlin [04:26:41] Well, Cole, one of my favorite listeners. Follow, she goes by this blind chick, talks on YouTube. She says, this has been an absolutely incredible interview and I think I've had like hundreds of people have written that in the comments that this is just a game changing interview. What do you think about that?

Kolby Sorensen [04:27:05] I don't know if I'd call it that. I'm just here to tell my story and my mindset going in was like, if that's going to help people, then that's what matters. I just know that there's so many episodes that have helped me and like tons of the ones I've watched have been on your channel, have been missionary based ones. So knowing that I can add to that to an audience that could be closer to my age, that's the reason I came here. I debated coming for a while and kind of just decided like I felt like I had something that could be contributed and I felt the obligation to do so because I think there's a lot of people who are struggling to navigate. And I knew that without people like Zelf on the shelf, without Mormon stories, without Jeremy Reynolds, that I would be having such a harder time processing and going through this stuff. And so if I can be part of what helps with that, I will gladly do so every day of the week.

John Dehlin [04:28:11] Well, there are 40 and 50 year old multimillionaires that live along the Wasatch front who are afraid to do what you just did. In all Their privilege. Yeah, they're afraid, you know, grown, grown ass humans, I'll say, who are afraid to do what you did as a 20 year old kid. So that's some courage in my book. That's some stones. What's another way to say that that's some courage?

Kolby Sorensen [04:28:37] Yeah, yeah, I think. Yeah. Challenge fear. Do what you're scared to do.

John Dehlin [04:28:42] Timothy Larsen writes Team Kolby.

Kolby Sorensen [04:28:47] Oh, I don't know how to react to that. Let's say team, team, Telling the truth. Team, team, team. Truth team. Putting it out there. We. It's not us versus them. So we just gotta figure out the ways that we can all work together. And like I'm going through that personal journey with my parents right now and I can't wait for the point where the church and its ex Mormon community can find a way to healthily interact and have a dialogue. As hard as some of like the episodes with believing members are to watch, like some of the recent ones, I still appreciate it because it's the other side, not the other side. That's a horrible way of putting it. The people on the believing part willing to come on here, I think is really important because I think all sides of the story need to be shared. So I challenge any believing members to come on here as well. I challenge anyone to come on here if you got a story you think needs to be told.

John Dehlin [04:29:44] Good news. We got Rod Meldrum coming back next week, so your wish is being granted. By the way, one of my favorite comments of the whole show, Kolby Reddish, who did a really important interview about sexual abuse in Mormonism.

Kolby Sorensen [04:29:59] Oh, my gosh. Yeah, I was watching that. He stole my name. I was so mad about that.

John Dehlin [04:30:02] He just commented, this is a good Kolby.

Kolby Sorensen [04:30:05] Yeah, let's go, Kolby gang.

John Dehlin [04:30:07] He says, he says, this man is a good Kolby.

Kolby Sorensen [04:30:10] So yeah, that's a good Kolby as well. I liked listening to their story and that was something that disturbed me is the way the church covers that kind of stuff up. Like it's. It's the same kind of thing. They would condemn about other organizations, but they're doing the exact same thing. Yeah, come on. Like, we got to get rid of the double standard. It does no one any good.

John Dehlin [04:30:32] Yeah, well, Gerardo, you set this up. You. You get at least a final word. Anything else you want to add?

Gerardo Sumano [04:30:40] No, probably just the last question. How do you find meaning and purpose after listening your faith?

Kolby Sorensen [04:30:48] Are you still doing it? I think I love the quote. It's on here a lot is do more good. I like trying to find a way to do more good and to be a positive impact on the world. That's why what I'm going into for my career choice is what I'm doing. It's why I'm here. It's why I can. I think one thing that, like, annoyed me was the idea that once you leave the church, if you leave Christianity or religion in general, that you don't have morals. But that was one of my favorite things, was redefining my morals and realizing that morality was for once, my thing to decide not to be told what it is. And it was a beautiful process for me. And I guess that was part of me finding purpose was this is what I think is moral, and this is what I think is immoral. And so I'm going to act based upon that and do what I can to help those in need.

John Dehlin [04:31:43] So you, you know, you've accomplished something that so many of us. I mean, even Gerardo wasn't. How old were you? And you. I mean, Gerardo was kind of an early bird, but 25. 25.

Kolby Sorensen [04:31:56] I can't even imagine.

John Dehlin [04:31:57] Yeah, I mean, I was so. I was 31 before I lost my faith.

Gerardo Sumano [04:32:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:32:02] And I was. I was 45 when I left or was kicked out.

Kolby Sorensen [04:32:07] So, I mean, I have my temple recommend for now. We'll see how that goes. You still do for now.

John Dehlin [04:32:12] Yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [04:32:13] We'll see what happens after this. But I can't imagine. I feel way luckier about my situation. I'm at a much younger age before everything kind of gets set in. I can't imagine doing it and getting out at such an older age especially. There's just so many other factors that I can't imagine going into it and how much more pressure that could be and how much harder it would be with some of that stuff. Like, I feel very lucky to have found out early in my life before making tons of, like, big decisions oriented around this religion. Like, I'm glad that most of my next big steps in life get to be free of that instead of choosing it based around that, because I imagine it'd be just so much harder to leave later on. So.

John Dehlin [04:33:00] Yeah, so many of our viewers don't figure it out until their 20s or 30s or 40s or 50s or 60s or 70s. Some of them. 70s. You figured it out when you were 20?

Gerardo Sumano [04:33:11] Yeah,

Kolby Sorensen [04:33:14] I. It's super lucky.

John Dehlin [04:33:16] So your whole life is ahead of you.

Kolby Sorensen [04:33:18] Yeah. No, that's. That's one thing that I love is, like, I have so much to look forward to, and it's. I feel like it's much more

John Dehlin [04:33:26] about

Kolby Sorensen [04:33:26] what I get to define. And I also feel like I'm not living for an afterlife anymore. I think I'm living for a very tangible future. But I'm also living for myself in the now. And I think I like that a lot more than living for some for an afterlife and always worrying about that because I did since I was like 8 years old, wonder like, crap, this is going to be scary on judgment day. But being now where it's like, hey, what am I going to do to be better tomorrow without this idea of having this grand judgment from a higher being, just having more power to self reflect, I guess.

John Dehlin [04:34:07] Do you know what you want to pursue career wise or anything or the

Kolby Sorensen [04:34:10] medical field is the goal right now.

John Dehlin [04:34:12] But I've had like maybe be medical. Doctor.

Kolby Sorensen [04:34:15] Medical. Yeah. Like a doctor, probably like a physician is kind of what I thought of doing. I've had ideas for. I have no idea how I would do any of it, but I've had ideas for like movies and stuff. Maybe I'll try to pursue some of that movie making, movie making, just like kind of directing because I've. I just think it'd be fun to embrace that creative side and be able to do something in that field. But right now I'm leaning more towards like the medical field because that's something I feel like it's much more like a, a set thing you can have control over. There's a lot more risk with going into something and anything in the arts has like a ton of like just like luck and risk involved. While with. For me, the medical field feels like something much more. It's like this is what I put in. It's not a whether or not I get the right connections. It's about what, how well I study and how well I can do. So it's kind of plan A with directing and anything in there kind of as like a hobby. Plan B. We'll see.

John Dehlin [04:35:05] What do you think audience? You think Kolby could. Could is smart enough to become a doctor? You guys comment right now and let us, let us know what you think. Is he, is he sharp enough to become a doctor or is that just. Is that beyond him? Radio Free Mormon's been in the chats, by the way.

Kolby Sorensen [04:35:20] Hey, I love the interview with Radio Free Mormon. So much of that. I felt super relatable. Just talking about wanting to learn more and realizing how like bland the church was with that. It feels very like stagnant. The learning in the church. That was cool being able to hear about that from Someone else knowing it wasn't just me who felt like it was like a. You hit like a curve and then you just kind of. You plateau.

John Dehlin [04:35:44] So right now, look into the camera and deliver a personal message to rfm. Because he's watching you and he's listening.

Kolby Sorensen [04:35:50] Ah, rfm. You're amazing and incredible. I loved your interview. I loved getting to hear even your insight. Just about like, the different religious stories and being able to see someone that I kind of. I related to in that way of wanting to pursue more knowledge and feeling like the church was a dead end when it came to that. And also, like, I don't know, I felt like I related to where you said, like it wasn't like a all at once thing with you for the church for. I felt kind of the same where I was, like, it felt like a very gradual process that culminated in an event.

John Dehlin [04:36:23] Okay, pop quiz. Are you ready?

Kolby Sorensen [04:36:25] Let's do it.

John Dehlin [04:36:26] Five questions. Are you ready?

Kolby Sorensen [04:36:27] Let's go.

John Dehlin [04:36:28] Okay, who's smarter, me or rfm?

Kolby Sorensen [04:36:31] Oh, what?

John Dehlin [04:36:32] Just pick. Stream of conscious.

Kolby Sorensen [04:36:34] Yes.

John Dehlin [04:36:34] I won't be mad. Who's smarter?

Kolby Sorensen [04:36:37] I don't know.

John Dehlin [04:36:37] Rfm. The answer is rfm. Okay, second, who's more handsome, me or rfm?

Kolby Sorensen [04:36:42] Oh, that one's tough. That one's really tough. That's. That's a toying toss.

John Dehlin [04:36:46] Okay. Okay. The next one point toss, the one that. The one that will be most offensive to RFM if you don't answer correctly. Who's most funny, me or rfm?

Kolby Sorensen [04:36:57] Rfm.

John Dehlin [04:36:58] Yeah, that's okay. That's okay. That's good. Okay, who's made a bigger difference? Mirror rfm.

Kolby Sorensen [04:37:04] Oh, I don't know. I'd say equal. I'm not gonna. I think that depends, like, on an honest answer. I think it depends on the person each person has what would influence them more.

John Dehlin [04:37:17] I have to say RFM has answered rfm. We love RFM. RFM's goal in life is for all things to be about rfm. And that's good and we respect that. We. We validate that. I mean, that's legitimate, right? What do you want to say to rfm? Look at the camera. What do you want to say to rfm?

Gerardo Sumano [04:37:39] I don't know. I talk to him on the phone sometimes, so I don't know.

John Dehlin [04:37:43] Does he call you at 1 8? Like, like at 6am like, he does me?

Gerardo Sumano [04:37:46] Not me, but I mean, I love rfm. Listen to everything he puts out.

John Dehlin [04:37:53] So. Yeah. All right, rfm. You've successfully made this entire episode about you. How does it feel all right. Anyway. Well, Kolby, you're amazing. You're an inspiration. Everyone loves you. You're the new celebrity and we hope you'll stay in touch. And we hope that when you are rich and famous, you'll come back on warmer stories. And let us all know.

Kolby Sorensen [04:38:20] I'd love to come back at any time to be able to just reflect more on how I guess things have changed for me. I think that'd be fun to do.

John Dehlin [04:38:27] All right. All right. Well, thanks so much for coming on. We wish you all the best. And Gerardo, it's great. You know, we always miss having Kara, but it's always great to have you also co host. And man, thanks for setting this up. This. This wouldn't have happened without you because it would have gotten drowned and lost in the 10,000.

Gerardo Sumano [04:38:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:38:46] Offers I've made for people to come on more stories that I lose track of of.

Kolby Sorensen [04:38:49] Can we get some applause, like in the chat for her?

John Dehlin [04:38:52] Yeah. Shout outs for Gerardo. Thanks, Gerardo, for making this happen.

Gerardo Sumano [04:38:56] Yeah, no problem. John, thank you.

John Dehlin [04:38:58] And Jen, thanks for being back there doing some. Some moderation late on Friday.

Gerardo Sumano [04:39:03] Oh, my God.

John Dehlin [04:39:03] Show notes and time codes. Thanks, Jen. And thanks to Kara and Brooklyn and Jennifer and everyone who makes the open stories fun now. Nemo.

Kolby Sorensen [04:39:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:39:14] And Simon Southerton. Yeah. And Margi and all the. All the cool people that are John Larsen. And we've got John Larsen coming this week.

Kolby Sorensen [04:39:21] Oh, I'm excited.

John Dehlin [04:39:22] John Larsen's coming. And we've got Sandra Tanner coming back and Rodney Meldrum. It's going to be a week of fireworks on Mormon Stories.

Gerardo Sumano [04:39:30] I'm excited.

John Dehlin [04:39:30] And we just announced that we, like, shattered. We had like 8 or 9 million downloads and views in 2020, and we just announced like 17 million downloads and views, not counting. Freaking tick tock.

Gerardo Sumano [04:39:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:39:44] So we grew by like 96 downloads and views between 2020 and 2021 and, and. And 2022 has been better in 2021 so far. So, like, things are blowing up.

Gerardo Sumano [04:39:58] Yeah, it's good.

John Dehlin [04:39:59] And Gerardo, you've been an important part of that. And Kara, you've been an important part of that. And Jen, you're becoming an important part of that. And Brooklyn, you've been important. Gordon and Jennifer. And things are good in Mormon Stories land. You wouldn't think a couple of weeks ago I'd be saying that, but look at that. We're still standing. Gerardo, how does it feel?

Gerardo Sumano [04:40:17] Feel great. Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:40:20] All right, thanks again, Kolby. You're awesome. And listeners and viewers, we couldn't do without you. Thanks to everyone who made awesome chats, especially RFM in the comments. We love our our live stream viewers. Thank you. Thanks to everyone who shares Mormon stories. Thanks to everyone who donates and makes it possible. We. We rely on your contributions to keep this going. So if you want to continue to see amazing programming and join the list of about 2,000, it's either 2 or 3,000 donors we had last year. We would love you to become a supporter and I can just promise any additional donations above what we already get is just going to go to hiring more cool people like Gerardo and Kara and Simon and. And paying Sandra and. And John Larsen and Margi and just. We're just going to expand the cool things we do and Nemo with your additional support. So if you just want to take it from 17 million downloads and views to 20 and 25 and 30 million and take us from like 55,000 or 60,000, 000 YouTube followers to 100. By the way, our TikTok is banned again. So my personal TikTok has been banned. And Mormon Stories podcast, Tick Tock channel that had 120,000 followers. That has been making a huge difference and is literally one of the main reasons for our growth in 2021. It has been suspended again by people who report us. And we're heartbroken about that. So what we're doing is I'm asking Kara for now to try and get it unsuspended and to amp up our efforts on Instagram reels and on Facebook shorts and on YouTube shorts. So we've. We've actually gotten into the YouTube shorts game and we've been able to have a few YouTube shorts. One the one that's had over a million views. Another one that's had three or four hundred thousand. So we're ramping up our YouTube. In response to the attacks on TikTok, we're ramping up our YouTube shorts game.

Gerardo Sumano [04:42:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:42:26] That's awesome. Yeah.

Kolby Sorensen [04:42:28] No one hold hand will stop the work from progressing.

John Dehlin [04:42:31] Persecutions may raise armies. Armies may combine.

Kolby Sorensen [04:42:34] Columns.

John Dehlin [04:42:36] I'm rusty. But the truth of Mormon stories shall

Kolby Sorensen [04:42:40] go forth boldly, nobly and independent until it is has penetrated every continent.

John Dehlin [04:42:47] I don't know, swept every nation.

Kolby Sorensen [04:42:49] I was close.

John Dehlin [04:42:52] Until the great Gerardo shall say the work is finished.

Kolby Sorensen [04:42:57] Amen.

John Dehlin [04:42:57] Amen. All right, thanks, everyone. Thanks for your support. Become a monthly donor@mormonstoriesgmail.com we need your support and we'll keep doing amazing things and be kind to each other and share this high and wide. If you Know someone who's considering a mission. If you know someone who's on a mission and you think you can help them, share this episode of Kolby with them. And I have a goal. I want to know why more Mormon Stories episodes aren't on these contraband Google Drives. So that's my goal. Whoever's in charge of this contraband Google Drive, get Mormon Stories episodes on the Google Drive.

Kolby Sorensen [04:43:38] Anyone who knows a missionary out there, whether they're struggling with their faith or not, just be amazing to them because they're going through probably, I'm gonna be honest, probably the hardest two years, some of the hardest stuff in their life. Just.

John Dehlin [04:43:49] Just.

Kolby Sorensen [04:43:50] Yeah. Reach out to them and be supportive. No matter what it is they need. If they just need you to be supportive in them believing, be supportive in that. If they need someone to talk to about their doubts, be that. Just be there for them because they need it. And feed the missionaries in your area. You don't even have to take a lesson from them. Give them some food.

John Dehlin [04:44:09] And if. If there's a Mormon missionary actively serving Mormon missionary out there who needs someone to talk to, how could they get. Is there a way they can get a hold of you that's not. That's not compromising or doxing you or compromising your communication channels? I guess we'll.

Kolby Sorensen [04:44:30] I'll make a new account for that, and I'll put it in the show notes. We get that in the show notes. I'll make a new account just for that. We'll call it the Apostate Missionaries. Probably it's going to be something like that.

John Dehlin [04:44:40] Someone's going to steal it immediately.

Kolby Sorensen [04:44:43] Jokes on you. That was a bluff.

John Dehlin [04:44:45] I have a different idea as a decoy. All right, Kolby, you're awesome. Thanks so much.

Kolby Sorensen [04:44:49] Yeah, no problem.

John Dehlin [04:44:50] All right, thanks, Gerardo. Yeah, thanks, Jen. All right, thanks, everybody. We'll see you guys all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast by rfm. Take care, everybody. Thanks.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.