Introduction and Guest Welcome

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Mormon Matters podcast is a production of the Open Stories foundation and is seeking to build financial support separate from Mormon Stories Podcast. All donations to Mormon Matters are fully tax deductible and go directly towards keeping the podcast alive and towards building a community of support for Mormons like you. To support the podcast or to join the community, please become a monthly subscriber today@mormonmatters.org.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:00:38] Come, come ye saints, nor toil, nor labor fear.

Wendy Williams Montgomery [00:00:50] Hello and welcome everyone to a special co released podcast from Mormon Stories and Mormon Matters. Our regular John Dehlin from Mormon Stories and Dan Wotherspoon from Mormon Matters have invited me to moderate the discussion today. I am Wendy Williams Montgomery and I am really happy to be here. So y' all are in for a treat today because our guests are John de Lynn and Dan Wotherspoon. I'm sure none of you have ever heard those names before. These two men are dear friends of mine and have become personal heroes to me over the past three years or so as my husband and I have tried to navigate this crazy minefield of remaining active in the Mormon Church while supporting and advocating for our gay teenage son, Jordan and other LGBTQ members of the church. So it's really quite an honor for me to be here with them today, especially with the topic that we're going to be talking about, which is an important one and one that strikes close to home for me personally, as I'm sure it will. For many, if not most of the listeners these podcasts, it's the issue of how to maintain good relationships with family, friends and ward members when we find ourselves a bit on the outside looking in or a bit out of the Mormon mainstream, either in terms of our gospel beliefs or views on social issues. So with that, I will ask you, John, to introduce yourself first. And Dan, if you wouldn't mind introducing yourself when John's finished.

John Dehlin [00:02:21] All right. Well, Wendy, what a treat. And yeah, I'm John Dehlin. I have a podcast called Mormon Stories. I've been doing it for about 10 years. I'm getting my PhD in clinical and counseling psychology. I'll be done this August. And I'm married with four kids and I live in Logan, Utah. How's that?

Wendy Williams Montgomery [00:02:45] That's good. That's good.

John Dehlin [00:02:47] And my research, my research as a psychologist is on, you know, the nexus of mental health and religion. I, I did a lot with scrupulosity and, and ocd and, and kind of religious anxiety disorders. And then my dissertation was on the LGBT Mormon experience. So I published probably six papers on six scientific Journal articles on what it's like to be gay, lesbian or bisexual and Mormon and what we can do to help support them better. So that's a little about me.

Wendy Williams Montgomery [00:03:24] And I love you for all of that work.

John Dehlin [00:03:26] Thanks.

Wendy Williams Montgomery [00:03:28] All right, Dan, your turn.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:03:29] Okay, Dan Wotherspoon here. Mormon Matters podcast host. Exactly a week short of four years ago that John invited me to. Well, at least that we recorded the first show Mormon Matters for. Most of you will know that John did about 20, I think 21 episodes of it and then it went. Then he basically turned it over to me a year or so after it had kind of gone doormat. And it's been wonderful to do it. It's been a neat fit. My own background is as a scholar of religion and I got my PhD in 1996. And kind of as I was doing lots of adjunct teaching and things like that, all of a sudden this wonderful opportunity to head up Sunstone came up. So I took that in two. And then following Sunstone, seven and a half years there, I went to work for a non profit with a fellow named Randy Paul that many listeners will to Mormon Matters will recognize. And it's actually a lot from his material that the topic today and the things I'm going to share come for that year and a half or so that I worked in a non profit with him. Since then I've just been a writer and freelance editor and I guess now podcaster. So it's been great fun. I have two grown children and a wonderful wife. We're celebrating our anniversary next week also. Nine years.

John Dehlin [00:04:49] Yay.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:04:50] So yay. Wow.

Wendy Williams Montgomery [00:04:52] Congratulations.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:04:52] Living in Bountiful, Utah.

Wendy Williams Montgomery [00:04:54] Awesome. Thank you. So Dan, how about you start us off by introducing our topic a little bit, maybe framing this discussion for us.

Why Faith Differences Cause Family Conflict

Dan Wotherspoon [00:05:03] Yeah, I'm thrilled too. And actually John and I had sort of been talking about doing this show and it was you bringing it up to us that kind of led to our little threesome coming together for this. I was talking at an event that you both were attending and I began to share some of this stuff. And again, a lot of this comes out of the research and the thinking of Randy Paul, Charles Randall Paul. And Randy has been working for the last 15 years officially with his foundation, but for many, many years longer than that on conflict issues and some might want to call it conflict resolution. But yet for Randy, he understands conflict in a helpful, positive way. So instead of trying to resolve conflicts, you're trying to work with the heat and the energy of conflict and move it into good positive direction. So he's a very interesting theorist on all that stuff. But in the course of that, of course among the major conflicts that are out in the world are conflicts among religions as well as between religions. And so the term inter religion versus intra religion come into play. There's all sorts of dynamics involved. And so inter, you know, between different religions is quite different than intra, which is with discussions and differences within a tradition. And guess what? The latter one is always the tougher issues. When you have, you know, two different groups that don't really know each other, it's basically two strangers. You know, if you want to get into military terms, you can say, well, they're the enemy and they're at the gate, they have foreign ideas, they're, they're coming at us and we don't know them, we don't understand understand them. You know, we're not quite sure, but we know we like what we have and we don't want to be contaminated. So a lot of the inter religious stuff, the stuff between religions kind of comes from, you know, the fear of the unknown, the fear of the other, and especially, you know, wanting to protect our children and ourselves from, you know, things that could really upset and mess with our lives. And so that's why there's lots of, lots of stress there. But when it's intra fighting, when it's within our own tradition, holy smokes, things can get so much more intense because guess what? We know this enemy, you know, or I don't really always want to call it enemy here, but we know these people that are challenging us. They know where we're the most vulnerable. They have the easiest access to our children and to our minds and influencing them. You know, they're right here. So they're capable of poisoning the well, you know, to make the whole community sick. Or you know, if you think yourselves as a ship, you know, sailing along, they can mess with the compass and all of a sudden you're going to run into the rocks. And worst of all, we can't pretend that they're ignorant of our stuff. I mean, that's the thing, we could kind of forgive the other religious person because they just don't know the truth, you know, or they're deceived or something like that. But here with the person who's within the trad kind of coming into conflict with us, we can't pretend that they're ignorant anymore. We have to face the fact that they actually disagree with us. We have challenges to our positions and so it's crazy. So that's kind of what's happening to, you know, kind of within the. Within the dynamics here? Do you guys want to comment on it? I mean, first of all, just general sense that we probably see civil wars are bloodier than wars between strangers, right?

Lessons from Inter-Religious Conflict Worldwide

John Dehlin [00:08:46] Yeah, I'm thinking of like the Sunni and Shia conflicts between Muslims. I'm thinking of just, you know, I was always struck by the. When India gained its independence, the brutality between India, India and Pakistan, even though obviously there's a religious difference there, but still those. Those people came sort of from the same country and. Yeah. Yeah. I think history has shown that sometimes intra tribe battles are the worst of all.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:09:20] Yeah. And sometimes, you know, even a leader or something will say, oh, we've got all these tensions here. And so they'll focus on an external enemy that both groups can kind of, you know, point to, look at the assault on this. Or, you know, we're all under. And so in some ways that can kind of mask differences that are there all along. And so when you take away that foreign enemy, all you're left is to talk with each other and those things kind of come to the surface again. So that's another interesting dynamic. Wendy, anything you wanted to jump in with?

Wendy Williams Montgomery [00:09:50] No. This is all just ringing so true and hitting so close to home. And when I heard you talk about this a week ago or so, it just really opened my mind to thinking, well, this is why people struggle with the position that my husband and I have taken in supporting our son and other gay people and people that are very close to me and very dear to me. Family members, ward members. It's. It's been difficult. So I'm excited to talk about this topic and. And hopefully get some pointers from you smart men.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:10:26] Well, if you want, there. So that's one layer there is kind of like, you know, you're the group that's sort of. You're the one standing there. And we've kind of talked a little bit about what it feels like to have the other, either the stranger or the known person who's now challenging you. But what's happening in the minds of that other person is always interesting to me. So, like, for instance, if we're in a situation of wanting to be in dialogue with another religion, what are we trying to do? You know, some people would say, oh, you're trying to colonize their minds, or you're trying to take over or something like that. But for the most part, part, I think we have to grant the benefit of the doubt that most people, what we're doing is we're trying to share, right? This is something that works for us. This is something that makes us happy. We think that this would be of benefit to you. And of course, they're thinking the same thing, right. Coming back. So it's kind of this nice dynamic of you tell your truth and I'll tell our truth and we'll have a little conversion contest, or at least we want to be heard, we want to be better known. The dynamics between faiths are kind of fun. And in many ways, you know, the stakes aren't quite as high. I don't know if that's a true statement. I don't know if I can totally make that. But I think it somehow doesn't feel. It doesn't mess with our hearts and we don't feel so vulnerable, you know what I mean? When it's an other sharing with us, we can kind of appreciate it a little bit. But now when intra dynamics come, you know, intra stuff comes in. What is the. Let's say that we're the person who is. Who's left the main group and we're now trying to engage them. What's happening in our minds is similar to the other one. And it's like, hey, this was a great tradition, but it's lost its way, or it can't see the forest from the trees right now, or it strayed from its original message or something like that, or I found something richer that I think will enhance. And so we're kind of like saying from this perspective, we're trying to call our tradition to its best self, right? We're just trying to say this is something bigger and it's brought again, joy into my life or at least clarity of vision that I think we all could benefit from. We'll make fewer mistakes, whatever it would be, from our perspective, it's a good thing, right? But from theirs, it's like, well, I think you've lost your way. We have scriptures that have told us that you are to beware of those who stray and then try to pick off members of the flock or something like that. So you've got that thing. It's like, who are you? We have prophets, we have apostles. I'm thinking here, of course, in the Mormon tradition. So you guys don't have the authority to interpret as well. So thank you very much, but I'm going to stick with what I know. I want to be safe within these things. And then of course, there's also, you know, because we're so dangerous, because we know the areas, like I mentioned earlier of weakness or something like that. It can feel very personal to that person or to that group or something when people come and say, you're wrong, you've lost your way, or things like this, because we kind of have to take them more seriously because they know what they're talking about, you know, where the other one could be ignorant. They don't really know what they're talking about. These guys really do know what they're talking about. And so it's just a, a much harder, you know, kind of thing in their gut. John, anything on that? Or before?

Representing Your Tradition at Its Best

John Dehlin [00:14:12] Yeah, maybe I'll just, I'll just comment on a couple things. I think, you know, to those who know the people on this podcast, I think most will understand that there might be a slight difference between where, where each of us, you know, is, is currently standing. I would, I would agree with the language that I would, I would want to call, for example, the LDS Church to its best self. So there's no disagreement there. But I would add that to some extent, I might be in a slightly different position because there's a part of me that has for many years been frustrated with certain positions the church might take, or more specifically, ways in which the church has hurt certain minority groups or, or ways that I think the church might have acted unethically or irresponsibly, even if unintentionally. And so I do want the church to be the best self it can be. But also some of my language and many of the people that I collaborate with also just want to see either want to say, hey, hey, LDS Church, sometimes you're really hurting people. And hey, you know, we feel like sometimes you've made the wrong decisions and we kind of want there to be more accountability. And I don't know if that's a big difference between us, but I guess I do want to highlight that for sure.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:15:46] And that'll add some different dynamics when we talk. Wendy, maybe do you want to quickly tell the three sections kind of that we've planned ahead of time, or should I just quickly throw out what we were going to do?

Wendy Williams Montgomery [00:15:59] Why don't you talk about it? I think you can say it a little bit more eloquently than I could.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:16:02] Well, this first section is just sort of the dynamics of inter versus intra. And then the second thing is kind of, okay, so let's say that we are the person who has moved, or, you know, we're among the group that has moved. What is our responsibility when it comes to, you know, recognizing the dynamics and Things like this. So we're going to kind of have a little bit of accountability section I think there. But the third one and this is where I think John stuff we could definitely bring up because I think this communicating successfully across these disagreements from those who have moved and those who are fearful of that move and things like that, that's where that third section will be. So I know that we can kind of get closer to what John was talking about there. But there's one thing that John and I wasn't saying that this isn't a label for you, but there was just a little bit more here that there's a lot of times in, in the process of either discovery or experiences have changed or something like this and we find ourselves at odds. There is a time where some people will say I'm going to take myself out of the group versus I want to stay within it. And so I know it's a terrible loaded word. You're, you know, recently been excommunicated for apostasy. I don't consider you apostate. I don't think that that's a label that fits you. But in some dynamics there is that person that says I am going to take myself out of the group. I no longer want to be associated with the group. I don't really care as much for the group's long term health and benefit and stuff versus the heretic is often the word and that's based upon the root word has something. I can't remember exactly what the Greek root is but it means choice. So it's for the other one who's choosing to stay in and trying to redeem the group from within. It's almost like this person is saying I love it so much that I want to stay in it and help it and things like that. So does that. I don't want to offend anybody there. But does that add a little bit to our discussion too? Because I think that's another place on the spectrum that we might want to look at ourselves. Not you and me. But I mean, yeah, I'm just thinking

Wendy Williams Montgomery [00:18:20] like the word apostate and the word heretic words have such meanings maybe that they don't mean, but those words have like a negative connotation to me. I don't consider myself a heretic because I stay, but maybe I am and I just don't understand the real definition of that word. But it sounds like a bad thing.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:18:38] Yeah. And some people have embraced it and I, at least at one period in my life I kind of did you

Wendy Williams Montgomery [00:18:43] know, maybe I need to embrace that.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:18:45] Well, no, no, no, but I agree with you. I don't think I necessarily. I hardly ever use that when I think of myself anymore, you know, because of what you decided.

Wendy Williams Montgomery [00:18:55] Yeah.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:18:55] John, problems with those words, should they just be left out of the discussion altogether or is that a helpful way of thinking?

John Dehlin [00:19:01] At least I'm fine with those words being used. As you mentioned, I just want to specify that for my current situation, I don't characterize myself anymore, at least not recently, as sort of trying to agitate for change in the church. I don't know if it's just because I've gotten tired or been burned or just I have a different set of motives or interests now. But yeah, I kind of now have turned my focus more towards just providing support for those who are either in the church and struggling or who are, who have transitioned out and are struggling and they're kind of my focus. But. So I don't think of myself as a reformer anymore.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:19:57] But you're not really thinking of the big institution. You're just thinking of individuals, you know, and who come to you.

John Dehlin [00:20:03] I guess I think about how the institution sometimes impacts people's lives, but I don't. As I think of where I'm targeting my efforts, it's more towards alleviating suffering and healing and growth for unorthodox or post Mormons, it's more that right now than it is saying I'm going to, by golly, I'm going to sign a petition or engage in some action or some sort of other effort to sort of directly help the church change. But having said that, knowing that there are millions of people whose lives are impacted by the church, I certainly welcome any positive changes the church would make. So to some people, there's going to be some subtlety or some nuance in those differences, but I just wanted to be clear about my intentions. Having said that, I think I can provide maybe a counterpoint or just some other perspectives to some of the points you want to make. Dan. Just to represent some of the people that I have collaborated with. Good. Over the years.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:21:13] Awesome. Wendy, anything else? Or I can move on to kind of a third part of this first section.

Wendy Williams Montgomery [00:21:20] Yep, I think we're good. Go ahead and move on.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:21:22] Okay, so here's what's so interesting. You know, we've got this tension. We've got the one group that's like, oh man, we're under attack either from outside or within. And then we've got on both sides of when we're when we're the ones that are sharing, we're trying to help, we're trying to do the best, and yet we have problems. Right? And so what's so interesting is that there's good things in the hearts of both people, you know, both parties here. One of the things is we love our children. We want them to be protected from harm and from falsehood. And, you know, I hear this on the liberal or the progressive as well as the, you know, the more conservative Mormons. It's the same thing. I don't want my child exposed to this radical progressive stuff that Wotherspoon and Dehlin and all you guys are shooting out there. And yet we're sons. Like, we don't want our daughters or our sons to be subjected to distorted, bad messaging. And, Wendy, I imagine that's a huge part of what's in your heart right now. We love our children, so both sides do that, and we don't want them to have either physical harm or just mental stuff. Also, we all want to make the world to make sense. And whether you believe in stage theory or however it wants, generally, by the time we become adults, we've kind of just inherited a sense of the world. This is what's important. This is what's not important. Things like this. And it takes a lot to get us to want to move out of that. Right. We kind of, you know, even though we didn't always necessarily build it ourselves, we more inherited it. You know, this is what kind of lets you kind of just sort of move on with your daily life if you're not always wrestling with these things. So it really is upsetting for us to have a challenge to that basic worldview, whether it had been an examined one or not. Another thing is, for many of us, we have really found joy. We love the family traditions. We love our religious traditions. We love, you know, the ancestry, and we love how our family did things and the vision of our religion, the various friendships and things like this. We have found joy in it. In both cases that's operating generally. I think we can grant that. And then again, we now have all come, at least in the case of those who are moving, to say we have a beautiful vision that we want to share with the other person. And that certainly comes back with, like, if I'm in the position of being in the mainstream group, I'm still holding on to the beautiful vision I have. And right now, I can't see your vision as more beautiful than mine. So we kind of have that same dynamic. So that's just what's so interesting and ironic here is that everyone is acting out of good motives, good desires, and yet it's so easy to get sideways with each other and to mistrust each other. I wanted to just throw that out there, too, as a way to kind of grant goodwill to make these pretty understandable dynamics, at least here at the outset.

John Dehlin [00:24:39] What comes to my mind is a song by Sting that came out of his Dream of the Blue Turtles album called Russians. Did you ever hear that song, Dan? No, I can't think I'd have Wendy ever heard of it.

Wendy Williams Montgomery [00:24:51] Ah, it sounds familiar. Are they talking about the Cold War?

John Dehlin [00:24:54] Yeah, it was. It was a song about. About the Cold War. And the basic. The basic course said, believe me when I say to you, I hope the Russians love their children, too.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:25:05] Nice. Nice.

John Dehlin [00:25:06] Yeah. And it basically just made the point that we're all trying to do what's right, just from different perspectives. It says we share the same biology, regardless of ideology. And anyway, that's just something that you reminded me of when you were saying that.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:25:23] Well, I think it's so true. And honestly, Randy Paul's work on this has been transformative for me to kind of just really own that fact that, you know, even if you want us to call it the rivals or enemies or something like that, generally when they can sit down together, you know, if they were able to break bread together, if you get past, you know, if you just get to the human thing, you just totally see that everyone is just trying to do their best and trying to do their best for their children, for their families, for their way of life and things like this. It's to be admired. Start from that. And then you can kind of get into your stuff where I'm champing these ideas or I'm championing my God, or I'm standing up for my community. Then we get into those heroic. I'm going to go into the arena and I'm going to mix it up with you. That kind of stuff comes later, but that's after you already recognize that this is a full person across from you. So if you're ready, I can move into our second area.

Our Burden and Responsibility Toward Believers

Wendy Williams Montgomery [00:26:33] The second area is our burden.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:26:34] Yeah, that's the one that I called our burden. So a little more. One more thing. So what happens when we're the, you know, okay, let's do this. Let's go autobiographical for us, let's say, and I think it speaks for all three of us. one point, we had the tiger by the tail. Right? We had the world figured out Mormonism was working for us. It was everything to us. This was our fondest hopes, our deepest desires. We really thought that we were blessed, whether we were Saturday's warriors or we were chosen. In some ways we drank it and we loved it. And yet our apple cart got tilted. Something came along, and I bet it wasn't pleasant for us. What is it? Some people seek humility or others have it thrust upon them. Most of us, we ended up having to go to a different place when it's like, wow, life has served up something to me and I've got to make sense of it. And I don't think we all welcomed that. There's going to be some rare exceptions, and I think at least some of the literature on stage theory is if it kind of happens in college and it happens naturally when you meet friends and people with differences, it doesn't feel as threatening. It just feels all interesting and fun as you mix it up with ideas and you say, wow, other people can be moral too, even with these different ideas. And of course theirs is mythic and ours is real, but you can kind of do that. And it's a little. Little gentler way and stuff. But basically we need to remember that we have gone through this ourselves and we kind of did it at our own pace, in our own timetable. It was rare that somebody came to us and said, john, Wendy, Dan, you're wrong and here's why. Or I used to believe, like you, and now I don't. Perhaps that is. But that's probably not the case. So here we are. We now find ourselves, the outsiders, the ones who have shifted and things like this. And the first thing that we meet from people is generally. Would you guys say that? It mostly comes across as like. They seem now fearful of us. I mean, they're sad for us. They may feel like we've fallen, somehow we've been deceived or things like this. But in terms of the interpersonal dynamics, I think fear. Fear is a huge early sense. What do you guys think? Is that the reason people don't talk to you as much anymore? Wendy? It's because they're fearing that you're going to either mess up their life and how they think about things. This trust in prophetic leadership, always being their Johnny on the spot and all that stuff. Where does fear come up for you?

Wendy Williams Montgomery [00:29:42] I think fear is a big part of it. I doubt they would admit that if they were asked. I think pity, I think. I mean, I get that quite a bit. Oh, you have a Gay son. Gosh, that's so awful. That's so hard. Which is really difficult for me to hear because he is one of my biggest blessings. But I remember being on the other side, you know, three years ago, and I probably would have said very similar things. But I think it's. You know, we. We don't like being pushed out of our comfort zones. You know, one thing that I get said repeatedly to me and about me is that I'm causing others to lose the spirit, which is interesting because that's giving me a whole lot of credit. I don't think I have that kind of power to influence how the spirit works on you, But I think anything outside of our comfort zone is very difficult for people, and especially for Mormons, who we're used to having all of the answers. So when someone asks a question or raises an issue that others may not have an answer to, this makes them hugely uncomfortable and causes them to experience cognitive dissonance. And, you know, we all know how comfortable that feels, you know, but it's. It's been my experience that the discomfort people may feel around me, it's not because I'm causing people to lose the spirit. I don't think I have that kind of power over people, but I. I think it's because we're reminding them that. That maybe we don't have all the answers as a church or as a family. And I think they feel like maybe I'm threatening the warm security that they enjoy inside their comfort zones. You know, so it's. I don't know. I think it's. We need to have compassion for those that kind of want to stay in that. In that bubble. It's safe there. It's way easier. You know, there are times I wish I could go back to that, but I would also love to see compassion for those that have chosen to leave their comfort zone or have been thrust out of their comfort zone, because that's extremely difficult, too. And I think where many traditionally believing members, I don't know if they understand that it takes a massive amount of internal strength and faith for me to even walk through the doors of my chapel and sit on the back row, much less participate in. Because I know what I'll face while I'm there. You know, we're not. We're not welcomed. We're not wanted because of the fear maybe that they. They're afraid I'm gonna, you know, corrupt their children or, you know, cause them to, you know, lose the spirit. Apparently. I'm really good at that, John.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:32:25] Anything on.

John Dehlin [00:32:25] Yeah, sure. I mean, I just think. I don't think it's any accident that in Mormonism, the absolute worst fate anyone can be consigned to is outer darkness. And who gets sent out of darkness, it's the people who once sort of had the knowledge or the testimony. In other words, people who were insiders and then left. But I think it really. I've tried to tease this apart, and what I think this might be about is something very evolutionary. You know, we. You know, what unit, you know, what organization do we sort of thrive by as. As humans? And I think it's, you know, groups, tribes, you know, and what's the. What's sort of the underpinning glue, the cohesive glue of any tribe or social group? It's. It's sort of trust and loyalty and. And, you know, that's what distinguishes. That's what keeps a tribe together. So I think it makes total sense that as soon as some people create the appearance that they are, that they're not fully with the program, that they're having criticisms, that they're standing apart, that they're challenging in some fundamental way, I think that's the scariest possible thing, because outsiders will do it. Outsiders will do. But people inside the. The tribe, they can. They can destroy the tribe from within. Is the term fifth column? Is that something that sometimes gets bannered about a little bit? Yeah.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:34:05] From the. From the V show?

John Dehlin [00:34:07] Yeah. Yeah. Or I think it. Even. Even Nazi Germany.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:34:11] Oh, okay.

John Dehlin [00:34:12] Had that term at one point. And. And so, yeah, I just think it makes us. It makes us really nervous because, you know, a tribe can be undone much more quickly from within than from without.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:34:25] Yeah. Awesome.

John Dehlin [00:34:26] Yeah.

Fear, Pain, and the Emotional Stakes of Faith Transitions

Dan Wotherspoon [00:34:27] Now, one of the reasons I want to focus on fear here, and then I want to focus on those of us that, you know, have broken at least these taboos and have moved away. I want to talk about fear as one of those primary emotions, and the other one I want to talk about is injury or harm or pain. And generally, when we see somebody who is afraid or when we see somebody who's in pain, what's our natural. Our natural inclination is to what. To comfort them? To try to address that. To try to get them out of that situation of being afraid as much as we can. And the same thing to help alleviate pain. So I think one of the things that we. Who've shifted our burden is to realize that when we meet fear, and sometimes that fear is masked as anger, sometimes. Sometimes it's masked as smart people preaching to us and all that Stuff, we got to realize that below all that is something like, I don't like the possibility. I'm fearful of the possibility of having to make some major reorientations myself. You guys don't seem to have it together quite yet. In my opinion, you're not an attractive option for me. So I'm going to protect what I have. So I'm fearful here. And so I think as we get to the third section, we talk about some of the ways that we can successfully talk to people. If we're coming from our situation, if we can really get them to talk about why this feels so scary to them, we're going to go places. Same thing on our end. What are we feeling when we're out of step with the group? It's painful, right? It is not fun. We feel like betrayed. And they maybe certainly can feel some of these emotions certainly go both ways. But we feel like they're choosing ideology or they're choosing, you know, a comfortable life over relationship with us. Right. You know, here I was your, you know, your beautiful child five minutes ago, and now all of a sudden I'm like this, you know, outsider to you, and you're going to hunker down and all that stuff that's painful. And again, pain is one of those primary emotions. And so when we talk about this third area, I really think that one of the things that we can do is just convey how painful this is. Thoughts? I'm almost serving almost as moderator. I just don't want to feel like I'm. I don't want to feel like I'm doing all the talking. So I'm now throwing to you guys. But anyway, sorry about the dynamics of this. It's kind of weird just because I kind of have the framing section here. But please jump in with either the fear or the pain kind of thing in terms of. Of. Is that what you guys would probably name as the primary base emotion for those who are on the outside?

Wendy Williams Montgomery [00:37:20] Yeah, I really identify with both of those. And at the same time, I know that I have caused my family or friends to feel that same fear or pain because they love me and they're worried for me. The interesting thing, though, from the point of view that I'm coming from now, you know, I'm 39 years old. I've spent my whole life in the church. So 36 years I've spent on the one side of being a traditionally believing, conservative member of the church. So I know exactly where they are all coming from. I know how they think. That was me a few years ago, you know, but since Jordan came out three years ago, I've spent those years kind of on the other side. And I don't want to make it an us versus them or sides, but I'm just trying to differentiate, I guess, perspectives or point of views. So I've spent three years doing massive amounts of studying and researching and really deep soul searching and reflecting to try and reconcile these two parts. Having a gay son and being a Mormon, like those two things just don't go together. And, and being the stubborn person that I am, I don't want to choose and I refuse. You know, it's like asking if you want your right arm or your left arm. These two things are vital to me in both. Both ways. So. But I know that for many that know us and that love us, it's difficult for them to watch our thought processes change, you know, but at the same time, I want them to understand us and know where we're coming from because they've never been where I am for the most part, or know what I know now, but I've been where they've been. So I see both sides clearly. And you know, I can look at, you know, family or friends and they used to trust me and value my input and opinion. They used to see me as smart or competent, spiritual, educated on church issues, you know, a deep thinker, all those kinds of things, which I feel like I still am all of those things. But now I know that they see me as, you know, deceived, fallen. I've lost the spirit, I'm fighting against the church, which I don't feel like I'm any of those things exactly, you know, so I just wish I was seen the same way as they used to see me. I'm the same person. But I think if we could just give each other both the benefit of the doubt and understand where we're coming from, that it's not a place of malice or mal intent. It's just I have a completely different perspective.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:40:05] Yeah, we've shifted. John, anything on that? Because Wendy did say one thing about that was a transition for what I want to say next, but jump in and I'll remember.

John Dehlin [00:40:17] Member no, I agree. It's just a tough situation because you're right, Dan, in reading your notes, we're the ones who changed. I do think that the way the LDS Church is sort of in 2015, it is a bit of a fundamentalist or an orthodox mindset in the sense that the drive really is about authority in the church. It's really about follow the brother brethren. It's really about. It's all true or it's all false. There is this mentality of beware of alternative voices. And so the environment that's been fostered by the leadership just sort of sets the members up to automatically feel like they need to view folks like us as dangers and as threats. And so I don't. I don't think. And I don't think. I think the church leaders are just trying to do what they think is right. And I think the members are just following the leaders. And so. But it is a really. You know, Wendy, when I hear you talk about how much you wish that they would see us in the same light and show us the same respect that we show them. And, you know, I think the hard part just is that that's not how our church is set up right now. That's not how our culture is set up. And so it's almost, I think, about from a mental health perspective, even from a Buddhist perspective, what's suffering? Suffering is attachment. Well, what do we mean by attachment? It's sort of wanting something that isn't reality. And there's just no way, unless there's some significant sea change that we're ever going to get the empathy and the respect that even just the equal respect that we think we deserve. It's just. It's just probably never going to happen unless the people slowly convert to our point of view. Because you kind of a fish has to kind of fly out of the water before it can even sort of realize that they're in water, as Dan, you've probably said and others have said before. And of course, once they're out of that water, their. Their perspective changes. But until that happens, they're not going to be empathetic. But then once it happens, they're probably more likely to come to our side. And so that's where things get really messy.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:42:49] Yeah, but one on one, heart by heart, person to person, the shift can happen. But that attachment to ideals is so important. I wanted to bring that one up in the third section too, because when you're in a relationship with somebody, if it's a really good relationship, it means you're both open to the influence of the other. There's a risk involved in any kind of thing like that. So if we're attached to this is the only outcome. Whether you stay in the church or you're going to leave the church, Whichever side you may be on yourself in any relationship, you cannot set it as a criteria for that relationship, that ultimately you should do this. We have to be open and let relationships and things unfold. So we'll talk a little bit about that again. But I wanted to do, because we mentioned, Wendy, that I kind of labeled this little section our burden. I think it was the key thing that you said is like, that was me a few years ago. I've seen it from both sides. Yeah, but they haven't.

Building Trust Across Faith Differences

Wendy Williams Montgomery [00:43:59] So why don't they trust us?

Dan Wotherspoon [00:44:02] Exactly. But that's really why the burden comes to us. I mean, it sucks. We've been through so much. We've had to toss and turn. Why can't they just be ready for us right now exactly when we need it and things like that. It is a hard burden to kind of carry, which is like, okay, you know, and I don't want to. I don't want to make this in terms of, you know, more mature or less mature. But sometimes, you know, when you know, with greater, I don't know, greater vision. Not that like, because, okay, here I got. I got to do the disclaimers here. I don't. I find so much to be admired in people who haven't even begun to think like me, you know. You know, there's. There's goodness, there's service. There is, you know, just all the virtues that don't come naturally to me. I see in these other people. And so I'm moved and stuff like that. But here, in the case of when it's an intellectual situation or who studied more or things like this, I think sometimes the person who knows more or who is aware of more, you kind of put yourself in a teacher role. And guess what? You've got to work with people at a different. Who are in a different spot. And it's your burden to do the teaching if you feel like it's an important thing to share. That got me into big trouble with that sort of idea of teacher learner in this case. But again, I wanted to say, like you said, Wendy John, we are the ones who shifted. And it was at our timetable or it just happened to us and we probably didn't welcome it. Exactly. So we can't expect them to be ready to go from the get go. We've got to get to peace with ourselves. We've got to do our own spiritual work. We've got to begun to start putting our own self together in a positive way. So we're not just in rejection mode. Rejection mode. We're in like, oh, here's why the world feels warmer and bigger to Me and why I think my spiritual journey is leading me here. And I think this is what God has called me into until we can kind of say that we're not going to be that successful in communicating the rest. Now, I know we want to clue people in when we're not going to be able to show up and be, you know, in the wedding party at the temple, marriage. And we feel like we need to share with things with people where we are. But it's our burden to really have done a lot of as much work as we can ahead of time so that we're aware of all these dynamics.

Wendy Williams Montgomery [00:46:45] Well, I'm just. I'm sitting here thinking of a podcast that I listen to that John did with Clark Johnson that is phenomenal. And if your listeners haven't listened to that, they need to listen to that. There are a bit of language, but it was so good.

John Dehlin [00:47:04] A few choice words.

Wendy Williams Montgomery [00:47:05] Yeah.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:47:06] Well, remind. This was just a couple months ago, and Clark is the letter to Saint Young man who's in the Book of Mormon musical.

Wendy Williams Montgomery [00:47:14] Yes, yes. Thank you. But there was a part where he's talking about conversations he had with his mom and how it became kind of difficult, but then he realized that he was talking to her, and what she was hearing was, help me, help me figure this out. And she was throwing him the only life raft she had, which was the gospel and scriptures. And he said she was throwing it hard, you know, so it wasn't what he needed to hear, but it was what. It was the only way. Yeah, it was what she had, and the only way she knew how to help him. And he had made a comment where he. She said it felt a little bit like I had to become the parent and help her. And I hope this doesn't sound patronizing or condescending to my parents if they happen to hear this, because I'm not meaning it that way. But at the same time, that really struck me because my family is very, very traditionally believing Mormon, and I was up until three years ago, and I loved it, and I still love so much about the gospel. I identify with a lot of it, but there are a lot of parts of it that are deeply painful for me. And they. They don't want to hear about the painful parts because it makes them really uncomfortable. And so they help me, quote, unquote, help me in the ways that they know how, with, you know, scriptures or spiritual experiences of why they know the church is right and true and where we need to be and things of that nature. But it's it's difficult.

John Dehlin [00:48:46] I think that if the goal is to. To try and help them understand or to. To get them to. To maybe do some movement, then the burden is on us to. To have more empathy and more patience maybe than they feel like they should or want to have. I would. I would just say that not everyone is going to feel called to that burden. And. And to be honest, sometimes it can be so exhausting and so difficult that it just simply maybe isn't worth the energy or the pain of trying. So, you know, for those who feel called to it, I say. I say, you know, Dan, your approach is most likely one that's going to be the. The have the best chance of being effective, or at least it's the most enlightened or, you know, we could even say Christ like of approaches. I just. I just want to also acknowledge that there's many people who are just. Just trying to deal with their own disappointments and their own disillusionments and. And their own worldview caving in and all the difficulties of trying to rebuild their marriage or their relationships or their job or their community. And there are going to be some people, maybe even a majority, who may just do better by not trying. Does that make sense?

Dan Wotherspoon [00:50:13] Not trying to share what's going on with them or not trying to be at peace with their family and stuff?

John Dehlin [00:50:19] Yeah, just like saying, you know, I am who I am and I'm going to be who I'm going to be. And if you want to be in my life, you need to show me mutual respect. And if you're going to otherize me or not want me to be around your kids or treat me differently, then maybe we just. We need a sabbatical from our relationship. I'm just saying that there's going to be times when that's the most that people are able to give. Not everybody feels called to or has the resources to fight maybe some of the battles that we're talking about today. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be fought. I'm just saying I want to acknowledge that we shouldn't impose that burden on everybody because not everybody's going to have the desire or the ability to put forth the extra effort, you know?

Wendy Williams Montgomery [00:51:09] Right. Yeah, absolutely.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:51:11] And a lot of its personality type and things like that, like, I was going through a lot of this stuff. I mean, a little bit would leak out with my wife Lori, to my wife Laurie. I could tell that it was. It was causing her pain. And so I shut it down. But I had lots of other outlets Friends in grad school and things that I could share things with and whatnot. I didn't really ever really feel the need to announce who I am or what I'm going through until I kind of had come to a little bit of slightly better peace, you know what I mean? What is it? Joanna Brooks said, I think on the podcast that we did a few weeks ago? Escalation never brings out the best in us. So when we're in big drama and big emotion, we're never going to be as skillful as we are is when we've kind of processed it. And so everyone planned to make tons of mistakes. We all do. Nobody can do this thing perfectly. But hopefully, John, the idea of, I'm going to be my own person, I'm going to live my own life, we need to take a break. Each other. That's not a first foray, I would hope, for anybody, or are you thinking that that may just have to be right off the bat?

John Dehlin [00:52:19] Just depends on the person in the situation, that's all. That's all I'm saying. Yeah, I think we're all. We all do better when we have strong, healthy family relationships. And I think. I think those are worth fighting for. I'm just saying that sometimes self care needs to be for sure prioritized.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:52:38] Yeah. Get out. Get out of the firing zone. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Self care, health first is absolutely the mantra for all of us, I think. Well, there was one thing that I guess I just wanted to say, too, and I may have mentioned it just in a brief, but let's do a few more sentences on it, and that is this sense of rejection of ideology over relationships. And again, that can go both ways. We feel rejected by them because they've seen us move into a new world, a new heart and head space, new ideas and things like this, and we feel rejected, that they don't even want to learn about it. Come on. You know, I don't even want to start this and that again. Again, we go back to that primary emotion that feels painful. But we need to. We need to name our feeling of rejection. But of course, we need to also name the fact that they're probably feeling like, oh, my way of seeing the world isn't as good as yours. You know, you're rejecting me and this whole, you know, family tradition and the history and. And all that kind of stuff. So. So it's hard not to take this stuff personally. I don't think any of us mean the personal stuff. So, again, when we get into this third section, we need to always be talking with them of like this. Say as much as you can, as much as you could feel like this is a personal thing, it's not. Here is what happened to me. I want to share it with you. I want to invite you into my life. I want all these things to be. Happen, but I know it's going to feel personal and let's talk about that and try to diffuse it as much as possible. So. But I just wanted to kind of name that in our burden. Just realizing that the personal rejection level of choosing ideas over persons can go both ways.

John Dehlin [00:54:30] Yeah, absolutely.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:54:31] Any more stuff and kind of our burden before we can kind of get into what are the best practices, do's and don'ts. And again, John, you probably had several podcasts on this. This is the kind of stuff comes up on lots of podcasts. So if nothing else, this is just kind of, you know, we oughta, it's. It's worth revisiting over and over again because I think this is probably the biggest burden for folks is these relationships after we've shifted.

Avoiding Unhelpful Patterns in These Conversations

John Dehlin [00:54:57] Yeah. The only other, the only other thing I'll say is something that I've been. And this is going to sound a little bit repetitive, possibly one of the things that I've gotten myself into trouble in the past is sort of talking about those, you know, angry ex Mormons who, Who are bitter and who. Who want to burn. Burn everything down and who can't control themselves. And, And I think, I think I've learned that I need to be really careful about that because, you know, anger, anger, you know, a lot of people say anger's healthy if it's channeled appropriately or it's natural. And I think in many cases it's just, just, it's unavoidable. And depending on the, you know, some people can just lose their faith in the church and bounce right back and they're a happy, jolly person. But I've seen other people, especially, let's just say they're in their 50s or 60s, they've given decades to the church and possibly hundreds of thousands of dollars, and then they find out the church isn't what they thought it was, and they're just furious and, and they're furious for a while, and sometimes there's just no way to avoid that. And we could talk to them about being more mindful or being more patient or becoming more enlightened or more mature. And I think in some cases that's possible and probably in all cases it's something to strive for. But I do think, think that there are going to be certain types of people in certain scenarios where trying to be the better person just isn't really in the cards for who they are and what they are, you know, and it's a slightly different point than I was making before because the prior one was about self care. This is just one about a realization that depending on your situation, situation, you just may not be able to sort of to try to grab some of the, some of the more enlightened stances, Dan, that I think you're going to be proposing and that I also support. But I just want to give a lot of slack, I guess, for people who feel really angry and disillusioned, that many of these people for at least a season just, just they're not going to be able to be their best selves because what they've been through is so traumatic. It's just not in the cards until they really heal, you know.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:57:34] Totally.

Wendy Williams Montgomery [00:57:34] Yeah. I'm sitting here listening to you and it. And what I'm thinking is, you know, what I've experienced may be different than what a lot of other people have experienced, but I have mourned as if somebody died with what I've lost. And I hope that doesn't sound like, like I'm comparing it to the loss of a child. But anger is a big part of the mourning process. I mean, at least it is for me. And when I think I've gone through it and I'm at peace, I get thrown back into that anger phase again. And it's brutal. It's so hard. So when I hear people talk about, you know, angry bitter ex Mormons, they don't know what they're talking about because they've never been there. If somebody has been in that position, they're going to have a whole new level of empathy for somebody that's struggling like that.

Dan Wotherspoon [00:58:21] Yep, good stuff. And I definitely grief was a big part of it for me in some ways, you know, you're grieving the simplicity, you know, every adult grieves the simplicity of the youth, you know, the youthful time, you know, before the complexities of life. I'll do it. But you know, you kind of grieve the specialness maybe you felt, you know. Joanna Brooks I was the root beer among the cokes, you know, I was the Saturday's warrior. I was so valiant in the pre earth life. I got the, you know, I didn't have to wrestle with all this. I know those were definitely things that I articulated in my own heart. And Head for a while, but there, but so there is the grieving of the loss of all that stuff. But you know, it gets more complicated when we actually have to grieve relationships along with it because those are definitely the harder griefs, but we need to own all of it. Well, John, I'm with you. If we're going to talk any best practices or just good clues and stuff like that off the bat, I don't know a single person that's ever done it skillfully. 100% of the time. I lucked out to have a family that wasn't as rigid, I think, as certainly what you've been talking about with Wendy here as well as in some of our conversations and things like this. So it never threatened my family of birth kind of thing and it never really threatened any major relationships other than with my wife who basically when she realized that this was happening and the preordained vision of a celestial family and all that stuff began to crash for her. She definitely was very rejecting of me and I felt like I was isolated and all that stuff. So there's a matter of grief with it. But I haven't faced the losses here. So again, I'm speaking from, you know, we're going to. We're going to be talking ideals here, but the reality is going to be so much messier. So.

Wendy Williams Montgomery [01:00:21] Yeah, well. And one more thought I had about anger is I prefer anger to just wallowing in self pity and hurt and pain. Anger. Anger is hurt in action for me. Some of my, I don't know, best things I've written or conversations I've had have been where I've been angry, but not angry at the person, but just feeling it inside. I feel like it motivates me. With my husband Tom and I, we joke that he's Gandhi. He's the calm to my storm. He's Gandhi and I'm Attila the Hunter. So I guess between the two of us we make a very balanced person.

Dan Wotherspoon [01:01:03] Very good, John. Anything else before we go? Any disclaimers before going to this last section? The last section, I really didn't give you guys anything other than questions here, so I want your stuff here. But at least the first thing that we kind of talked about. What are the key virtues that we need to try to develop? In other words, if we're the ones that shifted or just any two people or groups that have shifted positions and others, what are the key virtues that we need? Again, like you said, John, these aren't easy to have. But Paul does a good Job with the fruits of the spirit. Remember number one to be love, joy, peace, long suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance. These are all the virtues. But, but again more than anything else, when we're sharing with somebody else, we remember this person that we love this person. We've had lots of experience with things like this. The second one in Paul's list is joy. We should be able to communicate as much as we can the joy that has come into our life from opening up in this new way. You know, number three, peace is in his thing that we have a sense of peace that even though it may look chaotic to you, I sense that my journey is one towards peace, towards a deeper grounding in the universe, towards handling this complexity that's thrown my way. So communicate and try to develop in yourself a sense of peace. Long suffering is basically the King James version of patience, gentlemen. Gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance. Again, against such there is no law. These kind of virtues are fruits of the spirit. And so the dream is that we have made it through a spiritual crisis and we transition all the way to the other side. But if anything that Fowler is controversial. Obviously he talks about seven. Seven to 12 years is a typical time of reorientation for people before they maybe center in a more comfortable home. With this complexity and things like this, it's impossible to develop this full on peace in your new place right away. And of course you're going to need to be talking to people within it. But if you can kind of through willpower, through little flashcards, whatever your post it notes on the mirror in the morning and you're looking at it every day with whatever it would be, remember that I love these people. Remember that these are virtues that I've tried to do and pray. And then again with fruits of the Spirit. There are things that unfold from being centered in spirit, but there is kind of you can come out from the other way. So the key thing I guess more than anything else is hopefully when we're falling apart, we don't feel like this isn't for some purpose, hopefully that any of us, when we're struggling or we've come to new understandings, we feel like this is growing towards something else. If we feel like we're on a spiritual path, on a spiritual journey and can always remember that and always remember to communicate with that thing. I think number one, we're going to be, that's to me the first thing that came to my list here. Be trying to grow the next one kind of flows out of it. Which I'm going to try to say is keep your language as positive as you can. In other words, instead of always saying, oh, yeah, I don't believe that anymore, or I know that that's wrong, or things like that as much as you can. Again, it's going to be easier a little bit later in your journey and stuff like that, but to share from the good perspectives, the bigger perspectives, the happiness and things that you think you're either at or on your way towards. So I'll let you guys start with initial thoughts on virtues.

Key Virtues for Navigating Relationships with Loved Ones

Wendy Williams Montgomery [01:05:21] Well, the one that comes to mind for me is empathy. You know, just to remember that we all probably were at the point with the people we're talking to, family, ward members, friends, we've been there before. We know how it feels to think that way, to be there. So if we can have empathy for them and put ourselves back a few years or a decade or however long it's been and remember how it was to think that way and how threatening somebody like us could be to them. Yes, you know, so that I think if we listen with the intent to understand rather than to just respond or fire back and answer, if we can model that type of listening, hopefully it'll be reciprocated back to us.

Dan Wotherspoon [01:06:12] Awesome. John, any virtue you want to throw out there first?

John Dehlin [01:06:18] I don't know how to name what I'm about to say, but I do know that there's this psychological. This idea of kind of reverse psychology. You know, whenever you're pushing on somebody, their natural reaction is to push back. And sometimes the most powerful thing you can do is just. Is just detach. And so what I see so many people wanting to do once they've crossed over into unorthodox belief is to. They want everybody to understand. They want everybody to get them. They want everybody to. If they can't come to the point of agreeing, at least they want them to do all the work to try and at least understand their point of view. And I do think, because of the things we talked about earlier, that that's just unrealistic for so many people. And so what I like is the idea of allowing them to show interest. In other words, words, if you just say, hey, we don't need to talk about this, I respect where you are. And what I want to do is live the happiest and healthiest life that I can. And I want to have a great relationship with you. But as far as I'm concerned, we never have to talk about this again. If it's something you don't want to talk about and then just put the ball in their court. Sometimes that's so much more psychologically powerful than us, than us throwing out little bombs here and there or trying to needle or try and bring things up because then I think that that energy of us trying to push and poke and prod them creates resistance. Whereas if we back off and just like Carolyn Pearson says, you know, the best thing you can do is just shine a beautiful light.

Dan Wotherspoon [01:08:12] I was going there next. It's in my notes too. Yes, yes. Just like be the shiniest, best self and be a light and you'll attract them to you and they'll be curious what's the secret? And just wow, you're just a data point that they now have to consider, but they're considering at their own pace without you being a hammer right in front of them.

John Dehlin [01:08:33] Yeah, I think they're more likely to be interested, to care if it's coming from their genuine interest. And if they're not genuinely interested, there's probably no point in trying to have the conversation anyway.

Dan Wotherspoon [01:08:48] Yep.

Wendy Williams Montgomery [01:08:48] Right. So let me, let me ask you a question, John. I'm sitting here thinking about this and how this would play out like with friends or my family. So say you just back off, you never bring anything up again and you say we'll just, you know, not have these conversations. When you get together, you know, say a family reunion or whatever, it feels like it would be so surface level, like we don't have deep relationships. Let's talk about the weather and something that's not going. Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [01:09:16] Yeah, yeah it does.

Wendy Williams Montgomery [01:09:18] So how do you engage and still have real deep authentic relationships with somebody when you can't talk about something that is hugely important in your life?

John Dehlin [01:09:26] Well, yeah, I think. Well for me, for me it does mean that some of my relationships have become more surface level. Level but it doesn't mean that all relationship have to be that way. So I'm thinking about my immediate family and there, there are, there are some family members where, you know, I, I didn't push it well, I tried to push it with a lot of people and pretty much it never was, was valuable. So once I started backing off and just letting things go naturally, people kind of self selected and so there are some people who eventually felt safe or comfortable enough to come out of their shell and not at a family reunion gathering but more kind of a one on one type of setting or on a two on two with kind of their merit, their them as a couple and us as a couple, they would come to me and Margi and say, hey, you know what, I want to learn more here, I want to talk more. And in those instances, the relationship actually got deeper than it ever was, was before when we were both orthodox. And so I don't think it means that all relationships are going to stay surface. I just, I just think it means that some are probably going to have to stay surface just because the, the other isn't prepared to go anywhere deeper or they don't trust your worldview enough to want to talk deeper. But I, but I think that, I think that plenty will and you know, we can't. I think there's something called Dunbar's number. There's a, there's a fixed number of deep relationships that actually any human has the mental capacity to really engage in anyway. And I think that choosing the path that Dan or Wendy, you know, you guys have chosen or that I've tried to choose, I've got meaningful relationships coming out of my ears, you know. You know, I can't walk down the street without making a deep soulful connection of somebody who's just been dying to talk to me about something and find someone they can talk to. So you do lose some relationships to surface level stuff, but I think you gain more. And those that aren't ready, if you try and push them, you're just going to create problems anyway. That's my point.

Wendy Williams Montgomery [01:11:50] Right?

John Dehlin [01:11:51] Yeah, but that's just what I think. What do you guys think?

Dan Wotherspoon [01:11:56] That was a great one.

Wendy Williams Montgomery [01:11:57] No, I think that's great and I totally agree with you. I have definitely lost relationships to either surface level or non existent, but I've also gained so many more. I think what's difficult for me is the relationships that have always meant the most to me in my life are the ones that I feel strong struggle because of this. And as much as I have these wonderful friendships and relationships with other people, I want them with my family and they're just not there for a lot of them. And that's it. I guess I just have to be okay with it being that way because I can't, you know, I can't force them. But I miss them.

John Dehlin [01:12:36] Yeah, yeah. It's the death. There's grieving. It's the death. Yeah.

Sharing Yourself Without Overwhelming Others

Dan Wotherspoon [01:12:42] Well, the next area I was going to go into I think kind of fits as a natural transition. So let me throw it here and please finish up if I'm jumping the gun here. But the next thing I wanted to say, and it echoes back from earlier on in the framing section as best you can, name your pain, name the dynamics that you see going on. Share always from, I miss you. I want to have these relationships with you. What is preventing it? And try to get as much as you can to those primary emotions that do trigger that fundamental care that we have for each other. This. I have compassion for somebody in pain, somebody who's fearful. You know, sometimes it's going to be unresolvable. You know, there's going to be lines that, you know, a parent or a sibling or something to say is, you know, I do. I love you, I love you. But what was it like Tevye and Fiddler on the Roof? You know, on the other hand. On the other hand, finally there's going to be those. There is no other hand, you know, for some people. But the best thing you can do is, you know, expose those to the light as much as we can. So I think, John, in therapy, isn't this what's going on here? You know, people will be fighting and they'll be. They'll be talking about this. And you're trying to drill down to a fundamental fear of abandonment or a fundamental fear of this or, you know, a painful thing that they're working from the past. And as soon as you can, name the fundamental thing, instead of the anger and the passive aggression and all the different things that are working in the relationship that everyone's complaining about, the better you can get. That's, to me, where I wanted to go next. As far as this, as best you can with your family, own up how this feels to you to be out of relationship with them, and just hopefully they'll be able to say, well, I'm afraid to go where you're going, going. You know, it seems scary. Please react.

John Dehlin [01:14:49] There's a part of me that agrees with you. And then there's a. There's like a idealistic part of me that says, yes, if you, if you tell them, if you tell them how much it. It means to you and how much you miss them, then it's going to penetrate somewhere deep and they'll want to have that authentic conversation with you. There's another part of me that just feels like. Like that's almost like putting a huge burden on them that may. That for some, it may just be farther than they're able to go because really.

Dan Wotherspoon [01:15:19] Yeah, that's a good point. That's a good point.

John Dehlin [01:15:21] To have the conversation means to start putting cracks in their worldview. And I, I really, I have come to believe that there's some people who Just psychologically or financially or emotionally or socially. They just can't afford to go there. And maybe it's ego strength, maybe it's just resilience. Maybe there are other complicating factors. But I guess part of me wants to try and fight for that authentic relationship with every single person so I don't have to be like Wendy and feel like there are these deaths of relationships. But then part of me just doesn't want to go around giving people that burden of, like, how awful I feel that how bad I miss them, because I feel like that's just gonna make them feel bad, when in reality, they can't really do anything about it because it's just not in their psychological makeup, you know?

Dan Wotherspoon [01:16:15] Yeah, well, one of the don't. One of the don'ts later on my list is don't give people the full load at once. You know what I mean?

John Dehlin [01:16:22] You know?

Dan Wotherspoon [01:16:23] You know, don't give them the fire hose and stuff like that. In some ways, I think that's. That's appropriate here, John, because I definitely am like, yeah, name your pain and things like that. It doesn't mean, like, throw it all at them at once. But as much as you can possibly get in those conversations in the evaluating who I'm in conversation with, her and what I sense is going on and stuff like that, the more you can eventually get when appropriate to those things, I think that's where the healing can actually begin. Because again, those are the primary. The primary emotions that trigger compassion. Yeah, but great, great. Push it back there. Super. That was. That was my next virtue of, you know, bring to word, you know, what's really going on within you. Do you guys have one again?

John Dehlin [01:17:14] You know, I think, Dan, what you're highlighting is us being our best selves and hoping that they'll be their best selves, because for me, that intimacy is what life's all about. And intimacy comes through authenticity and vulnerability. And what you're basically saying is share with them your intimate, vulnerable self. And I think in healthy situations, that's always the right path. So I validate that. In relationships where there's health and goodwill, I think that's always the way to. To go. I validated that.

Dan Wotherspoon [01:17:52] Sweet. Well, I'll give another one then. Unless you guys have another one.

John Dehlin [01:17:58] No, go ahead. You got the list?

Vulnerability and Intimacy in Mixed-Faith Relationships

Dan Wotherspoon [01:18:00] Well, again, I didn't share the list ahead of time with this part. This one again, I just mentioned it in a sentence or two earlier. That is just when you think about the healthiest relationships, the thing that constitutes A healthy relationship is vulnerability. It's like, guess what? I know that I could be wounded by you because I'm open to you and I care about you, and I recognize this is hard. But the other main thing is we cannot expect or we cannot put upon them this is the only acceptable outcome, whether it's leaving the church, staying within the church, whether it's how you raise a child or something like that. If I'm naming, my virtue is be in relationships where you do not have a particular end in mind. And if that is not reached, the relationship is over or the relationship shuts down and can go no further. I just to want. Wanted to just remind ourselves that the worst thing we can do is have an expectation. So this is your kind of detachment stuff, John. I'll link back to that. The worst thing we can do is have an expectation that's unrealistic because the other person knows that you're judging them by some standard. And if all that they're seeing is, well, someday you'll see the light like I do, or they're saying, well, someday they'll come back and see the error of their ways. And if that's the dynamic of your relationship, I think, you know, we need to name that and say, man, this isn't healthy.

John Dehlin [01:19:46] Yeah, I totally, totally agree. I agree. Wendy, you got any thoughts on that?

Wendy Williams Montgomery [01:19:52] Well, I'm kind of torn on it because, like, with the vulnerability issue, you know, in our. In our situation, you know, Jordan's been out three years, so for the first, I don't know, year and a half, two years, I would drive down to visit my family that lives about two hours south of us at least once a month because I knew that it was going to take them a while to come to terms with this, to understand it. And I would have. I would make myself. Which is not my natural inclination. I would make myself extremely vulnerable. And we would have very open conversations. I'd let them ask anything that they want. We would dialogue a lot, and I would drive home in tears every time. And not because they were intentionally hurt, but it just. It was so emotionally draining for me to do that. And I just. I continually did that over and over for, you know, two years. And it just got to the point where I just couldn't. It was taking such a toll on me emotionally and mentally. I just. So I started backing off and not going down quite as much to visit. And, I mean, we'd still go to family things, but I just. I could not engage in. In these hard conversations because I Don't feel like there was much movement and it was just. I don't know if this is even making sense. It was just really, really draining. So I feel like I've had to for, I don't know, self care. My own preservation almost put up a little bit of a wall where I just don't go there with them sometimes unless, I mean, if they want to, I'll talk about it, but I'm not putting myself out there all the time. So I guess I get how important vulnerability is, but at least for me, there was just a limit where I just couldn't continue to do that for sure. So I'm not sure if that makes your point or breaks your point.

Dan Wotherspoon [01:21:43] No, no, not at all.

John Dehlin [01:21:44] No.

Dan Wotherspoon [01:21:44] I just, again, my bigger point was we can't have a preconceived outcome more than the vulnerability. Half. But I'm with you. Self care, energy waxing, waning, good days, bad days, it's all a turmoil. And absolutely protect yourself, be careful. For sure.

Wendy Williams Montgomery [01:22:05] Well, and I recognize that it's going to take it. They may never get there. And a lot of it is maybe my expectations of wanting certain things that I need to let go of. But it requires such patience. And that is probably one of the things I'm the worst at. It's like trying to steer a glacier. It moves so slowly, you know. But, you know, a friend of mine once said regarding the LGBT issue in the church, he said, he compared it to like the children of Israel having just taken their first steps out of Egypt and we likely have another 40 years of wandering before we reach our goal. You know, which is kind of a depressing thought, but at the same time, it gives us a realistic perspective that will hopefully help us not be devastated every time something difficult happens, every time we hear a problematic talk in general conference or have a difficult conversation or something happens at church or with our bishop or stake president. If we just have the end game in mind and not just be devastated by the little things that happen in the meantime. So I guess patience, patience, patience.

Dan Wotherspoon [01:23:19] Yeah. And if the end game in mind is peace and harmony and, and continued love and closeness, great. If it's tied to a particular geographical within the Mormon spectrum or anything like that, then I think if that end game, that end game ought to just go away as much as we can possibly have it. Mom, I'm going to love you, love you, love you. If you eventually come my way, that's just not going to work. You know, same thing with them that come in towards us. If it's constantly, you'll see the light one day, I know you will. And boom, boom, boom. It's just not going to work. So the best that we can do to get out outcomes out of the, out of the discussion, in our own hearts, the best I think will be

Wendy Williams Montgomery [01:24:08] right.

Dan Wotherspoon [01:24:08] John.

John Dehlin [01:24:08] John? Yeah, I think keep your expectations low.

Dan Wotherspoon [01:24:17] Yeah. Think about what works with you. Does full on assaults work well with you? Probably not. So why would it work as well with others? I know sometimes we just have to share and we're in the turmoil of it all and things and we're all going to make mistakes but that's what forgiveness is for. That's what hopefully the bank of love and all these things through the years will where we've seen each other at our best and our worst that can come in when we actually have to say we're sorry for dumping too much or being super hurtful or something when we're conveying our pain. Either of you guys want to jump in with another thought? Sorry Wendy, I've just kind of become the moderator here. I think it's because.

Wendy Williams Montgomery [01:25:07] No, you're fine.

Dan Wotherspoon [01:25:08] It's just because it was my outline here. I guess this wasn't the intention and I'm so appreciative of everything you're sharing.

Wendy Williams Montgomery [01:25:16] No, it's great, it's great.

John Dehlin [01:25:18] I say keep going Dan.

Dan Wotherspoon [01:25:20] Alright, well I'll do a summary later. I've got this one. It's kind of weird. On my screen here in front of me are like seven different little inter religious intra human communication kind of systems where you've got the fun five points, the three points, the ten points, the virtues and stuff like that. But the one that's been struck out for me is I'm going to combine from two lists many of you will know Kirster Stendahl was the great Swedish theologian or whatever and he gave the three virtues for when you want to understand somebody else. Number one, like when you want to understand another religion, you, you should ask the adherence of that religion, not the enemy's. The second one is you don't want to compare your best to their worst. So in other words, when you're going to compare things with others, pick the right things. And then the third one is leave room for holy envy. Have you guys heard this list before, in other words? Oh well, it's really neat and I don't really want to do much with it but I mostly want to do this. Compare your best with the worst with it and then from another one it's like always give credit where credit is due. And I guess I just wanted to remind ourselves that it's pretty natural when you have a critique to overstate your critique, to over dramatize that not only is it wrong, it's the most wrong it's ever been. Nobody in the history of the world has been this wrong or something like that. Or, you know, there's just that sense. And again, I'll just use the word that Joanna Brooks uses, you know, to escalate. To escalate and to compare. So always, you know, John, I don't know if it's in counseling, you know, or it's Gottman's. What's the ratio of good things to bad things that you should share? You know, I've heard five to one or something like that. Even an even number, you know, for every time you have a critique, we had to do it. So I just think it's a good spiritual practice of ours to really look hard inside ourselves and to still remind ourselves of what it felt like to be secure and happy and healthy and what things have benefited you to this day. Even if it's just, you know, I'm a good public speaker now because I had to give two and a half minute talk talks and sacrament meaning talks and various things. But for as much as we can, we need to do that with the church, our religion, our former positions. We need to do it with the people that we're in conflict with and stuff like that. Just so we don't run into this comparing what is the most thing that's jabbing us that's causing us the irritation right now. Just so we don't overstate, state that thing at the expense of the other things. And then they can hear you. If you've acknowledged not only your love, but those love things can kind of just sort of feel trite. Yeah, mom, you know I love you. And it's just. Then you get on right into the critique. But if you can be specific about, you know, boy, it was the greatest upbringing and it was so wonderful and you were just such a. You know, if you can really give specific things, but it takes the self examples, examination and the stuff. So I guess my thing here is don't over escalate and let's combine it with one that I had, another one I really recommend, as much as anybody is willing to do it. Even if your God has fallen apart for you, even if the language of spirit, even if all those words kind of trigger you, there are spiritual practices that can be named in other ways, whether you want to call it prayer, whether you want to call it meditation, whether you want to call it anything else. Finding quiet time to spend with yourself and your deepest self, you know, your best self, you know, away from the stresses and things of life. Do that and I think you'll, you know, just continue with spiritual practice and that will, I think, help you to be more centered, more balanced when you engage with others.

Wendy Williams Montgomery [01:29:43] Right. That's really good advice.

John Dehlin [01:29:45] That's good. Yeah. It's easy to get angry and emotional and to use lots of hyperbole. I know I've done it and it almost never helps.

Dan Wotherspoon [01:29:56] Yeah, yeah. And back to Wendy's point, I thought of it a little while. It was so interesting when I finally was able to name that the people who are the most obnoxious in my ward, you know, or in my family, or the things that ticked me off. It was when I finally realized it's because those are qualities of mine. You know what I mean? You know how you always hate something about yourself or you're most irritated, like, I wish I wasn't so this or so that. So often we get triggered just because of just human inner. Just the stuff that we've carried with ourselves is like, oh, I wish I was bolder and stronger like that person. If we're shy or vice versa. It's. We're seeing ourselves so often and we kind of just the more again that we're in touch with who we are and our own spiritual centering and our own emotional well being and all that stuff. I think we're going to do best. So then my last one, I'll just do it and then we could just. However we want to end the podcast. This is again more of a repeat than anything like that. I think the best thing to do is, is as much as we can, don't speak from the negative, speak from the positive. Here is where I feel God has pointed me. Here is what life served up to me. And as I've passed through my fears and as I've gotten into this, I really see something deep and important here. And if we're sharing from this positive thing from. Yep, nope. I no longer believe Joseph Smith was a prophet. I no longer believe that the Book of Mormon is true. I no longer. This, this, this. I think our prophets are wrong, wrong, wrong. Any of those kinds of languages are going to be instantly. Like John even said earlier, we're trained. Those are the buzzwords that we're watching for. Right. That's what we're being warned against. That's never going to work. I told this story of how when my son turned 12, I wasn't able to ordain him to the Aaronic priesthood because the bishop six months earlier had heard me in that stage of my turmoil only say, yep, I no longer believe that. I no longer believe that. I don't even know if I believe in Christ. I don't even believe the atonement and boom, boom, boom. And so six months later, when I wanted to baptize my kid and even when I was in a more positive place, he remembered that and he kind of, you know, basically said, I couldn't do my son because, you know, of my negative framing. So the best that we can, the healthier we are, the shinier self. Carolyn Pearson. You know, thanks to John reminding us too, that's the thing to share with them our positive framings wherever we can. And just our own experience with the question, any of that. Letting them know what we're going through, how we got to where we are, any of that stuff. Just, just, you know, we humanize it and we can diffuse a lot of the fears and the filters. And again, I also had the. Don't share the full load at once here in my final thoughts too.

Reframing Conversations Away from the Negative

Wendy Williams Montgomery [01:33:10] Well, that's difficult. I'm trying to think, how could I word things where it doesn't come from? The negative.

John Dehlin [01:33:19] Yeah.

Wendy Williams Montgomery [01:33:19] Do you know what I mean? Like, when I talk about gay issues in the church, there's so much negative I'm trying to. To think of. If we just take the church's recent press conference, there is a little bit of positive, but at least from my point of view, there was more negative than positive.

Dan Wotherspoon [01:33:36] Right. But sharing with your family, you could emphasize, I love my son. I know my son. God has shared with me how much God loves my son. This is the positive stuff versus the church is wrong, wrong, wrong. You know what I mean? Again, I don't know if I listen enough or something. Is it controversial, John or Wendy, to share like, well, you know, it took the church X amount of years to really name and wrestle with the blacks and the priesthood question. And obviously society moved on faster than them. But finally it came around to where the church was finally at a spot when the 78 revelation came where everybody was kind of ready for it and welcoming it where it would have been harder before. So ultimately there's people who will say that, yeah, it was way behind the times, but it was actually at a good pace because the whole church didn't break up over this. It didn't Fly to pieces because now the majority had moved. And so this seeding the cross question of the GLBT stuff, of course, protect your children, do everything you can to keep the rhetoric out of people's hearts and minds, whether that's privately or sometimes you'll speak up in church things or not, of course, protect all that things. But is it okay. Does it offend you to say that maybe we're ceding the question that we're having, the discussions that need to be be had for the church to ultimately healthily make a shift in the meantime, people are dying. I know. So, you know, that's.

Wendy Williams Montgomery [01:35:21] Well, I personally, I don't find that offensive. It doesn't offend me, but I don't know, maybe I think I've grown a bit of a thicker skin over the past few years. I know that it's offensive to other people, and I know that the church is this big organization, and it's going to change very, very, very slowly. And yeah, in the meantime, our kids are still killing themselves at an alarming rate. So I feel a sense of urgency maybe that a lot of other people don't. And I think a lot of people see this particular issue as only affecting a very small percentage of people, which it affects a lot more than people think when you count their families and loved ones. And so I don't find it offensive. And I realize that the church moves slowly, but I think if somebody's coming at it from the complete opposite point of view from where I am, I would be the offending party, if that makes sense. So I get both sides.

Dan Wotherspoon [01:36:16] John, you want to jump in?

John Dehlin [01:36:18] Yeah, I think if you're hoping that the church changes, the long view is kind of the only view you can really take, especially on really big, big questions like this one. And. And I think there's a lot of room for optimism if you want op. You know, a reason for optimism. Just. Just because if. If the church has shown anything, it's that they. They do eventually make big changes, usually in the direction of social justice. It. It just usually takes them a few decades more than. Than the rest of society. So, yeah, I think you're right. It. You know, the. The efforts made by. By many of us who are really vocal now, you know, will probably never be acknowledged for the. For the parts we played. And when I say we, When I say we, there are thousands and thousands of people.

Dan Wotherspoon [01:37:14] Sure, absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:37:15] But. But yeah, every. Every drop contributes to filling the bucket, you know, and eventually, you know, we will help effect change. Yeah, that's Definitely a healthy way to look at it, and I think it's accurate.

Wendy Williams Montgomery [01:37:28] And I think what helps me personally is not having the view of trying to change the whole church, because that is way too big a job for just the handful of us. I look at reaching the mother or the father or the child that's going through this or just helping one family at a time or one person at a time that way, I feel like, because that is the church to me, we are the church. So if we can reach just a couple, you know, a few here or there that may have a gay child and may not know what to do and the child struggling, and that feels like a more reachable goal than trying to change the whole church totally.

Dan Wotherspoon [01:38:13] That is. That's absolutely the only place that I can go as well with you. I can't think the change the whole church thing. John talked about the water, the drops to fill the bucket. Joan Chittister, who's a Catholic nun and is very alerted on women's issues and stuff, she talked about, I want to be that. I don't know how many snowflakes it takes to break a branch off a tree, but I want to contribute my weight to that critical mass before it finally shifts. And one other thing about. About this, I was really moved by a friend of mine, and he actually would be known to some here, but he was a member of a bishopric, and he sort of had been through the faith crisis, and he's actually in the crisis, and he's not sure why he's still serving in the bishopric, but he just said to me, he goes, partly it's just so that I can go up to those two kids in our ward who aren't yet out of the closet, but I'm pretty sure they're gay, and just put my arms around them and just each week let them know that I see them and I acknowledge them. To me, that's pure religion undefiled.

Wendy Williams Montgomery [01:39:22] I'm so grateful he's still in that bishopric.

Dan Wotherspoon [01:39:25] Well, he's not now. This was seven or eight years ago. But that's just a neat way to be if we can do it. I know sometimes it's too painful to even to be present, but I love that idea of just one on one is the only way to do it. And eventually we do have a shift.

Wendy Williams Montgomery [01:39:46] Yeah.

Dan Wotherspoon [01:39:47] Hey, you guys. Well, thanks for, I guess, letting me be the moderator all of a sudden here. Can we. Should we just head to the. Wendy, can we just head to the end and I'll just all have any Final thoughts or whatever. Do you want to weigh in with anything left on your notepad that you came to the conversation with?

Filling Your Own Cup and Closing Reflections

Wendy Williams Montgomery [01:40:09] I guess I would just add that the journeys that we've all been on, they're difficult, they're painful and that we need to find ways that still fill our cups and emotionally sustain us. For me, that's talking with other like minded people. I have a need to be validated or understand. Understood. So, you know, Facebook groups or talking with friends or listening to, you know, podcasts or reading. Those types of things fill me and my favorite things are going to, you know, like an affirmation conference, a Mormon LGBT conference or Sunstone and being with people where I don't feel like I'm alone because where I live in Central California, it kind of feels like the Bible belt of the west coast coast and we feel very alone. We are one of the very few that I've been able to find that think the way we do along some, some lines. So I like being with other people where I don't feel like, you know, I, I'm the, the weird one. I like being around other weird people so that we can be weird together, I guess.

Dan Wotherspoon [01:41:18] Yes. No, definitely find, find it. You're right. So fill your own cup. I love that.

Wendy Williams Montgomery [01:41:25] Yeah.

Dan Wotherspoon [01:41:25] Thanks for being on and thanks for kind of. This went different than we expected, but I think it's been wonderful. So thank you.

Wendy Williams Montgomery [01:41:32] Sure.

Dan Wotherspoon [01:41:34] John, any places you want to go here at the end?

John Dehlin [01:41:37] Yeah, I'll just, I'll just summarize. It's been fun. I, Wendy and Dan, I think the world of you both and it's just an honor to be on a podcast with you guys. My summary points would be, you know, Dan, I think what you were making an appeal for just broadly is just kindness and compassion. I do agree that that's always the strongest and the best and the most effective position to be in. So I want to validate that and say, yep, go with kindness and compassion when in doubt and first and always when you can. And then I'll just follow up and say, you know, have a lot of self compassion. If you are in an angry place or in a frustrated place, that's okay too. So if you can't be your best self, just have a lot of compassion about just you being the best person you can be or just even you being a frustrated, grouchy person. Have compassion about that. Remember self care and you know, know, don't try and stretch yourself beyond what's safe and healthy for you. If you're trying to have relationships with people, know what your goals are. And I would say your goals would be to build on areas where you share common beliefs or understandings. And your goal should never be to convert them to your point of view, just like you wouldn't want them to convert to try and convert you to their point view of. Of view. So with that, that means kind of respect and erect healthy boundaries where you're expecting them to have boundaries and to respect you. That's okay to demand respect with many of the basics. And you should erect your own healthy boundaries again towards them, lower your expectations, have a big healthy dose of acceptance. And then because you are going to lose some relationships over this, replace the holes of those relationships with new ones that do edify you. It won't be the same, but you can still get the relationships you want or need. And then finally, as we've already he said, let your light so shine and just be the happiest and the best person you can be. And that. That's going to be the strongest testimony of all. That's. Those are my parting thoughts.

Dan Wotherspoon [01:44:12] Let's just let them stand. Man, those are awesome. You're great. I remember that fatality Yours, John, you are amazing at always summarizing so well. So thank you, brother. It's fun to do a podcast with you again. It's been a long time since you and I've been on the same one.

John Dehlin [01:44:28] My pleasure. And bless you guys for fighting the good fight. Keep it up.

Dan Wotherspoon [01:44:33] Good. And I've definitely said my fill today. And I'll just say thanks. Listeners who listen to John's podcast, who listen to Mormon Matters as well, please continue to support us financially. It's a big part of the way that we make our lives and our families work. So if you can go to various websites and click subscribe or click Donate, it is so, so appreciated. So thanks. Please everybody, come to the websites, have good conversations, share this. And if you feel like it's safe to share with your families, perhaps this can be an asset to let people know. So be prayerful or meditative or whatever it is about that. But hopefully this has been a good resource. I know this is key issues for so many of us and all best. And like John said, be forgiving of yourself and just know that it's a mess, but ultimately there's peace and joy. Wendy, does it offend to say to. Can you use that phrase of it gets better?

Wendy Williams Montgomery [01:45:42] No, that's a great phrase. It doesn't just get better, it gets awesome.

John Dehlin [01:45:48] Awesome.

Dan Wotherspoon [01:45:48] All right. I like it anyway. I've certainly found that to be true in my life. And I think all of us here kind of once you catch the scent that you really are on a path and a good journey, it does get better. It gets more complicated. Of course, like Wendy said earlier, we want to go back into our naive positions or something like that. But ultimately we're glad. And so keep that in mind and keep going. Good night, you guys.

John Dehlin [01:46:13] Amen. Amen. Thanks guys.

Dan Wotherspoon [01:46:15] Thank you, thank you,

John Dehlin [01:46:20] thank you for joining us today on Mormon Matters Podcast. To discuss this podcast with others, please check us out@mormonmatters.org to keep this podcast alive or to join our support community, please consider a tax deductible donation today@mormonmatters.org music for this podcast was brought to you by Brittany and Clayton Pixton. The Mormon Matters logo was generously provided by studiocase.com thank you for listening.

Dan Wotherspoon [01:46:48] You this journey may appear it shall be as your day. T is better far for us to strive Our useless cares from us to drive to this this and joy. Your hearts will swell, all is well, all is well. Do this and join your hearts will

Wendy Williams Montgomery [01:47:34] swell,

Dan Wotherspoon [01:47:37] all is well, all is well, all is well, all is well,

John Dehlin [01:47:49] all

Dan Wotherspoon [01:47:50] is well, all is well. Sam.

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