Welcome and Episode Introduction

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is September 28, 2023, and we have some late breaking news that we want to cover on Mormon Stories Podcast. To begin with, there was a press conference held this morning in Salt Lake City by an attorney who is claiming to represent several of the women alleged victims of Tim Ballard. And we want to replay that press conference and maybe provide a little bit of analysis. In addition, we have discovered a video, Sorry, a photo that's come out of Tim Ballard in his underwear. We haven't confirmed whether it's legitimate or not, but we want to show that.

John Dehlin [00:00:50] That photo because it's starting to be shared around and. And I have reached out to some contacts who were at one point close to Tim who are saying that it's likely legitimate. Also, Tim Ballard has spoken up now about what he's calling the couple's ruse, which is the way that he's publicly trying to justify his relationship with these women who are claiming that he abused them. He's had his wife also speak in his defense, and he's actually had a woman who allegedly was one of his faux wives on these operations speak out. We're going to be playing some of those videos as well, along with the video from Jimmy Rex, who went on several operations with Tim Ballard.

John Dehlin [00:01:40] Have him give his input. And then finally, there's some other late breaking news by Fox 13 about the documentation by from the federal investigation of Tim Ballard. And our that's some investigative work by Adam Herberts of Fox 13 News. There's a lot to cover today, so we're grateful for all of you who have joined us in the live stream. We would welcome anyone who wants to comment on the live stream. And while we're at it, one thing that I just want to let you all know about is something I'm very excited about is that on Mormon Stories Podcast YouTube channel, we're almost at 200,000 subscribers.

John Dehlin [00:02:19] We're literally 7,000 subscribers away. I'm really happy about that. And so I'd love to reach 200,000. The. The benefit for you of us reaching higher subscriber numbers is just that YouTube is going to share our videos more. So it helps get the word out. But also we're able to get better guests on the show the more subscribers we have. So there's kind of this virtual cycle that comes on. And of course, ad revenue can increase, which helps us pay our. Our paid staff and helps us keep the lights on. So for all those reasons Please consider going to our YouTube channel, becoming a subscriber, liking this video, sharing this video, commenting on the video, all of that helps us with the algorithms.

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Context for the Tim Ballard Coverage

John Dehlin [00:04:34] All right. Yeah. This has been a really busy few weeks covering the eight passengers Jody Hildebrandt scandal and the Tim Ballard scandal. And sometimes we just feel like it's important to do late breaking news. And part of the reason why we do that is because we can provide analysis from a Mormon perspective that many others can't or won't or are afraid to.

John Dehlin [00:04:55] But we will provide analysis. And then also we have a bigger reach, oddly, than many other outlets that are trying to cover this. And so today, in the case of Mormon Ish podcast, we love Landon and Rebecca of Mormonish Podcast, but they don't have the reach yet that we do. So if we broadcast something that Mormonish does for an example, if we rebroadcast, it helps build awareness for them and their great platform as well. The first thing that I want to do before we begin is show a video that is currently circulating. It's been shared with me now several times. For those of you who have been following the accusations against Tim Ballard and sexual impropriety, there's been rumors of a photo of Tim in his underwear going around.

John Dehlin [00:05:45] A photo that Allegedly he shared with the women who were involved in the couple's ruse. And just really briefly that if. If you. We're going to talk about the couple's ruse more, we're going to play some videos. But for those who don't know, Tim Ballard claims. The word is that Tim Ballard would basically go on these jumps in developing countries. He would go to very dangerous areas and interact with, by his report, very dangerous people. And the way that the dangerous people would test his legitimacy would be to ask him to do unsavory things, I'm assuming, like sleep with prostitutes or sleep with sex workers.

John Dehlin [00:06:26] And so he would bring women who weren't his wife, but who would act as his wife on these meetings with these big bad guys, so that when he was requested to do bad things with sex workers, he could just say, I can't. My wife's with me. That's the basic. That's what he's calling the couple's ruse.

John Dehlin [00:06:49] He's trying to make it sound legitimate. And of course, it's several of the women reportedly who went on the couple's ruse with him as his fake wives who are now reporting that he showered with them, that he had sexual behavior, sexual engagements with them, and that he groomed them. And that's what we're going to be covering today. But. But the first thing that wanted to show is a photo that, admittedly we have not confirmed to be legitimate, but this is the photo that is currently being shared of Tim Ballard.

John Dehlin [00:07:22] The source right now is a TikTok. No, sorry, is a Twitter or an X post from. From the channel Tim Ballard exposed. And what it's showing is a photo of. Of Tim Ballard with various tattoos. He's lying down on a couch and. And he's in his underwear. And it is very possible that this is a fake or a photoshopped photo.

John Dehlin [00:07:49] One thing that you know, you need to know for sure is that a lot of those tattoos don't appear to be tattoos that Tim Ballard has today. What I can say, though, is that I've been corresponding with people who knew Tim, who. Who worked with Tim, that went on jumps with Tim. And I'm gonna read just exactly what they wrote me. One of my sources wrote, I've heard rumors of this photo for months, so I think it's 100% legit. Tim was obsessed with fake tattoos. Him and Paul Hutchinson both were.

John Dehlin [00:08:27] And this source is saying Tim had a makeup artist putting disguises on him all the time. So as a part of these interactions or jumps or you know, these sorts of activities. I guess Tim would. Would have artists, allegedly, Tim would have artists put on fake tattoos to make him look more legit. And so I guess the idea would be, is that it's possible that this is a legitimate photo of Tim and that either someone doctored it in Photoshop or something else, or these are fake tattoos that were drawn on him by artists that could be washed off later.

John Dehlin [00:09:06] That would. That would show that he's a big, bad, bad guy. So again, I'm not going to claim that that's verified. I'm not going to claim that it's legitimate. I will share the photo in the live stream for anyone who wants to confirm it. And I'm guessing that the legitimacy of that photo will be.

John Dehlin [00:09:31] Will be discussed and potentially vetted in the days, weeks and months ahead. So that's the first thing that we wanted to report. The second thing that we wanted to report is the. Is the press conference that just was held about an hour ago in Salt Lake City. And the best, most comprehensive video that we have is. Is from the wonderful podcast Mormonish by my friends Rebecca and Landon. And what I'm going to do now is play that re.

Guest [00:10:08] Re.

John Dehlin [00:10:09] Play the re recording of that press conference. And then we're going to discuss Tim Ballard's justifications for what the women appear to be alleging is abuse and talk about the couple's ruse. Talk about some of the other friends of Tim's that have come out. And we're going to end with some of Adam Herbert's reporting. We. We really appreciate all who are joining us through. Through the live stream. All right, so let's go ahead and jump to the press conference now. I hope you can hear it. Okay. And we'll hear what the attorney for several of the women who are alleging sexual abuse, sexual misconduct, sexual harassment by Tim Ballard. Let's hear what the attorney has to say.

Former Employees' Press Conference Statement

▶ Video Clip 1

Video Clip 1 [00:11:02] Good morning. My name is Suzette Rasmussen, and I represent a group of women who wish to speak out regarding the recent allegations related to Tim Ballard, the former CEO of Operations Underground Railroad. I've been asked to read a statement on their behalf. As former employees and contractors who worked closely with Operation Underground Railroad, we are choosing to give a public statement about our experiences with Tim Ballard. Earlier this year, complaints were filed that opened the door for an internal investigation. We now stand together to affirm the truth behind these allegations.

Video Clip 1 [00:11:45] Our involved.

Video Clip 1 [00:11:45] Our involvement with Operation Underground Railroad was rooted in our commitment to fighting against human trafficking. But while engaging in that noble cause, we were subjected to sexual harassment, spiritual manipulation, grooming and sexual misconduct. Though we value our privacy as we work to rebuild our lives, we also feel a responsibility to speak out and state unequivocally that these allegations are true.

Video Clip 1 [00:12:18] We acknowledge the risks involved in challenging someone as prominent as Tim Ballard. We will reveal our stories in our own time and in our own way and on our own terms. But for now, we choose to remain anonymous.

Video Clip 1 [00:12:35] We wish to express our gratitude for the outpouring of civilization from those who have responded and commented to the media and social media posts. We also want to extend our support and solidarity to all survivors of harassment and abuse of any kind.

Video Clip 1 [00:12:53] We believe you and we are standing by your side as you embark on your own healing journey. For anyone else who may wish to come forward, you can reach out to me via emailurinfoff of utah law.com thank you. Suzanne.

John Dehlin [00:13:12] How many women are represented?

Guest 2 [00:13:15] I can't comment specifically, but I will say that it's several women. They're involved in the group. I can't comment specifically my support of

John Dehlin [00:13:26] this seven, if not more than seven female victims.

Guest 4 [00:13:31] Does that number say hi to you?

Guest 2 [00:13:36] Well, that number is a variable obviously, but I would say that it's. It's pretty close to accurate. I can't make specific statements right now other than what I've stated

Guest [00:13:53] and if

Tim Ballard [00:13:54] so, what was the outcome if not.

Guest 2 [00:13:58] And I can't speak on that statement as well at this point, I can't give any additional information or details. I can't comment on the next steps, but more details may be coming forward.

John Dehlin [00:14:14] Oh, you are put out a statement today. So. Are your clients satisfied with the response?

Guest 2 [00:14:25] I won't be able to comment on that as well. This point I can just state that the women are feel very strongly that the fight against human trafficking is a noble endeavor and one that these women were eager to engage in. But the behavior of Tim Ballard crossed the line and these women cannot remain silent. I can't make any comments about that. Again, I can't make any statements right now about that. But we'll wait to see what happens in in the coming future.

Guest 5 [00:15:24] The time frame of these encounters and

John Dehlin [00:15:25] it sounds like complaints were made a

Guest 5 [00:15:27] few months ago over what span of time with these interactions?

Guest 2 [00:15:32] I can say that complaints have been filed and statements were known for several months.

Guest 3 [00:15:39] So then can you just confirm that?

Guest 2 [00:15:44] I can't confirm that I can't make any statements regarding our's response to the allegations.

John Dehlin [00:15:53] How many more women do you think

Guest 6 [00:15:55] may have been abused or harassed?

Guest 2 [00:15:59] I can't Speculate, but we do know it's several women, several more women.

Guest 6 [00:16:04] What law, if any, have non disclosure

Tim Ballard [00:16:06] agreements played in the animal?

Guest 2 [00:16:09] Again, I can't make any comments regarding that. I can't state what may or may not happen with litigation with regard to litigation at this time. Again, these women wanted their voice heard and they wanted to affect affirm the truth of these allegations. And that is their purpose for making a statement publicly today.

Guest 2 [00:16:45] The affirmations that the women make are the truth of their experiences. And their experiences were that they experienced sexual harassment, spiritual manipulation, grooming and sexual misconduct. Perhaps their relationships were consensual, but at the same time feel a little bit of embarrassment perhaps.

Guest 2 [00:17:15] The only thing I can say at this time and more details may come forward as they express that they would like to share their story in their own time and on their own terms. But at this point they are working to rebuild their lives. These are real women whose lives were affected through their marriages, through their families, and they're working to rebuild from here and heal.

Guest 2 [00:17:40] I can't comment for them specifically on what rebuilding their lives looks like for each one of them, but they have stated that they're in the process of trying to work through what they need to. At this point, I can't comment on that. At this point, I can't make any comments regarding that.

Guest 2 [00:18:19] Again, these are the statements made by the victims. And so I don't want to put words in their mouth other than what they stated, which is that they were manipulated spiritually.

Guest 4 [00:18:29] How important is it for people?

Guest 2 [00:18:33] Again, they felt it was important enough that even with everything going on, they felt that they needed others to know again, the truth so that they can protect themselves and also protect other women from this happening to them. You say that they experience. Are all of them experiencing the misconduct of harassment? Are there varying levels and degrees to

John Dehlin [00:19:04] each of the women that you're working with?

Guest 2 [00:19:08] I can't comment on their individual matters at this point.

John Dehlin [00:19:14] Okay, so it looks like the Mormonish recording cuts off a little bit early. I apologize that a lot of that press conference wasn't super audible. And it seemed like the other than the statement that was made by, by the attorney, there wasn't a lot to say. And if I'm going to kind of summarize what, what I have here as the main complaints, it's sexual harassment, spiritual manipulation, grooming and sexual misconduct.

John Dehlin [00:19:51] I will, you know, we're we. Some of you may be interested to know that we recently interviewed somebody who talked a lot about their former spouse on the Podcast, and we've received a cease and desist letter asking us to take down that podcast for, for defamatory reasons. So we, I want to make sure on Mormon Stories Podcast that we don't open ourselves up to legal liability. So I'm just going to say something that is. Is more of a legal thing than anything else. I want to just make sure. I'm not claiming that, you know, what, what we know is that this attorney says that several women are making allegations of sexual misconduct against Tim Ballard on Mormon Stories Podcast.

John Dehlin [00:20:41] We absolutely believe in the idea of starting by believing. In other words, it's very rare for, for victims to make false allegations or for people to make false allegations. And so, you know, we believe in the idea of if somebody comes forward and claims they're a victim, you know, we should all start by listening and start by being inclined to believe.

John Dehlin [00:21:07] But false allegations do happen, and, and, and so evidence really matters, and, you know, the legal process really matters. So this is going to be a legal process. And so I just want to make sure that, that everyone knows and that we state very explicitly that as of now, we're talking about allegations of several women. So the allegations are as follows, according to the attorney.

John Dehlin [00:21:33] Sexual harassment, spiritual manipulation, which is very interesting. Grooming, sexual misconduct. Grooming and sexual misconduct. Those are the four allegations that I have listed and that I think are worth talking about. Now what I'd like to do is play a video by Tim Ballard. It's, it's on his Instagram page. Tim Ballard, 89. I'm going to go ahead and share that as well. Maven is making a point that I think is worth sharing allegations about. Tim Ballard did not start with the announcement. They've been going on for years. But people are scared because he has so much power over them. That's true. And the attorney, you know, made clear that these, these allegations were filed with Operation Underground Railroad months and months ago, if not longer.

John Dehlin [00:22:27] You know, I've, I've known about allegations of impropriety of Tim Ballard for years, but it wasn't until recently that I learned about allegations of sexual impropr. But my understanding is these women are just terrified to come forward because they live in Utah. Utah is a state that overwhelmingly seems to support Tim Ballard and Operation Underground Railroad. And so there would be a lot of haters out there that would likely manipulate or retaliate against people who, who claimed impropriety on Tim's part. And that's a very, very rough thing because it's always difficult to come out with allegations against a popular figure. So it's tough.

John Dehlin [00:23:10] And. And that's why these things are best handled in the. In. In through the judicial system where, you know, evidence can be shown and cases can be made and judges and juries can determine the truth. Okay, so the next thing that we want to do is play Tim Ballard's recent Instagram video where he discusses and describes the couple's ruse. This is him describing the base activity that he went on that at least some of the reported accusers or alleged victims of. Tim Ballard say was the context in which he sexually harassed them. So let me now switch to that video.

Tim Ballard Explains the Couple's Ruse

▶ Video Clip 2

Video Clip 2 [00:23:59] I want to tell you about a very important undercover tactic that we use that involves female operators. Based on the allegations that are flying around and the questions being asked, we've decided to tell you these tactics. While I do so, I'm going to pay homage, respect, love, and gratitude for these female operators who serve such an important role in rescue operations. You need to understand that children don't just fall out of the sky. They don't fall into your desk. It's a very proactive word. So if I am a man or one of my operators approached by a trafficker trying to put a child to service on that person or a sex worker, and that man, that operator, doesn't partake of what's being offered, they lose credibility.

Video Clip 2 [00:24:44] And so we came up with a concept that we call the couple's ruse or the couple's tactic, or where you go in together pretending to be a husband or wife or boyfriend, girlfriend. Now, you go in, and one of you could pretend that, yes, I want to partake in this sex act with this woman or this child, but I can't because my girlfriend won't let me. But maybe we can do it later.

Video Clip 2 [00:25:08] So is that cool? Like, let's keep talking, and she'll warm up to it eventually. But the bottom line is we block for each other. So the trafficker sees the situation, recognizes that I have every excuse not to partake. Hundreds, maybe thousands, of children have been rescued using this amazing tactic. As I've had these talks over the last several weeks with these amazing, heroic female operators, they want their voices heard. They want you to know what it's been like for them working with me and other operators, you, the supporters, it's time for you to look under the hood, and you can make your own decision about these tactics.

Video Clip 2 [00:25:47] But I want to pay homage to these female operators. I want to give them their opportunity to tell their story and bear their witness to the amazing work that they have done working with our teams. So please, over the next several days, listen to their testimonies, listen to the work they've done, and thank God for them for rescuing these children. Hey guys, I want to tell you about a very important undercover.

John Dehlin [00:26:14] So, you know, my, my immediate reactions are, you know, first and foremost, you know, so this is called a couple's ruse. And he's basically saying, as I mentioned earlier, that he's bringing a woman along so he won't have to engage in imperial proper sexual activities with, you know, when the bad guys, you know, sort of try, try to get him to do bad things as a way to test his badness.

John Dehlin [00:26:50] I, you know, I do think that there, there immediately are some concerns that arise. Number one is, is that, you know, what, what apparently some of these women are alleging is that in the private sleeping quarters of Tim Ballard and his female operator, fake wives, that Tim would have these female operators sleep with him in the same bed or shower with him.

John Dehlin [00:27:22] And I guess, I guess I, you know, what I know about these jumps is that they, they would basically, you know, go to a really shady, skeezy part of town and try to find someone who looks like a John or a pimp and who, and then say, can you bring me some kids?

John Dehlin [00:27:46] And, and then they would bring the kids back. And, and I, I, I, you know, the, the, One of the biggest criticisms of Tim Ballard Operation Underground Railroad is that he was creating, they were creating the demand. In other words, if you go to a super poor area, start flashing money around and saying, bring me something. Here's the money.

John Dehlin [00:28:14] People for money will bring you anything. And we'll be showing a little bit later a report from, from, from Jimmy Rex where he talks about, you know, them offering money to a, a young man to bring them something. He ends up bringing a girl to them who appeared underage. And then when Jimmy Rex asks the, the kid who the girl was, he asked the girl if she was his girlfriend and she says yes. And so, you know, it's this idea of creating the demand.

John Dehlin [00:28:50] And if that's the case, if you are literally creating the demand and paying someone to go find people to bring back, how essential is it for you to have a female cover? I, I don't know how realistic of a need that really was. But again, if you're trying to avoid improper sexual behavior as a believing faithful married Mormon, but then you're showering and sleeping in a bed with the operative that you bring with you, are you really avoiding improper sexual behavior? And also Are, you know, where were they staying? Were they staying in the house of the, of the, of the bad guys where they would be assumed to be watched?

John Dehlin [00:29:37] Like, what's the scenario in which Tim and his female operative fake wives would need to fake a shower, sex, engagement or fake actual sex in a bed as a way to fool the bad guys? I would just be assuming that they would be sleeping in hotels that they arranged beforehand, hotels that didn't have cameras in them, hotels that weren't monitored by the bad guys. I just don't believe that they were sleeping in, in the same house as the bad guys where they would need to fake shower sex or fake bedroom sex. And so I just. We really need to know the context.

John Dehlin [00:30:23] And until we learn that context, it just seems like an excuse and a way to groom women to have fun on the road. When your wife is at home watching your nine kids, that's. That's what it looks like.

John Dehlin [00:30:38] And I just can't imagine a scenario where it would be anything other than that. I want to play a second video now where Tim basically speaks on behalf of his wife. And then we are going to talk about that as well. So let's go ahead and go to the next Tim Ballard video.

Reactions to the Couple's Ruse Video

▶ Video Clip 3

Video Clip 3 [00:31:02] You from my wife, who is one of the most inspired people I know. She asked me to make this message. I agree with her. Look, we are under attack. The work to rescue children who are being abused in the worst way around the world is under attack by all sorts of falsehoods, false accusations, and everything else that comes when you're fighting against evil. And she wants me to remind you something that we've said and we say it again. I am fake, faithful to my wife and to my God. And that is the truth. You can believe whatever you want, but I'm telling you that that is the truth. So let's get past that for now and let's try something different. Let's just go out and do good. I don't care what that good is. Serve somebody. Find something good to do with your time. Productive help serve servers.

Video Clip 3 [00:31:59] Turns the lights on.

Video Clip 3 [00:32:01] Service heals. And so I have dedicated to do that. My wife is dedicated to do that. And we invite you to do the same. Let's just serve all of God's children. Because when you are in the service of your fellow man, you are in fact in the service of your God.

John Dehlin [00:32:18] So you know a couple things about that video. Some say he looks not well. Some are wondering whether he's okay health wise. Some feel like many people report that his latest videos, his voice sounds slurred, sort of like implying that maybe there's a substance use issue.

John Dehlin [00:32:43] I have no idea whether there are health issues or substance use issues. And I'm curious from the audience whether anyone in the audience also sees some slurring or maybe some potential health issues. Richard writes, the steroids are maybe taking a toll. And again, I don't know if Tim Ballard has taken steroids.

John Dehlin [00:33:07] I do know that he did a lot of CrossFit kind of work, and a lot of the people that he would take on his jumps were crossfitters. And, you know, somebody's saying alcohol. Red, red face is a sign of alcohol.

John Dehlin [00:33:30] Yeah, several people are saying that. I don't know if that's true. I do want to report something really interesting. My dear friend and collaborator, Care Burrell Nuance Ho, is saying that the sexual engagements that Tim had with his.

John Dehlin [00:33:49] With his operative fake wives as part of the couple's ruse were Abrahamic tests that he would put them through in the. In his office or in the car. And that that's a particularly dark thing if you think about Jim Jones and the People's Temple of Guyana. You know, we. All those of you who know about that story that, you know, over a hundred people, I forget how many people died at Guyana when they drank the poison Kool Aid that Tim Jones gave them.

John Dehlin [00:34:21] You know what. What many haven't heard is that he used to. My understanding is that before he poisoned his entire congregation and killed them all, he would have them drink Kool Aid that he told them was poisoned, and he would do it as an Abrahamic

Guest 5 [00:34:36] test

John Dehlin [00:34:38] and just in a very dirty Mormon way. This also is reminiscent of a tactic Joseph Smith used. I remember as a BYU student hearing about Joseph Smith bringing Heber C. Kimball, I believe, and his wife into his study or into some quarters and basically saying, heber, I want you to give me your wife as a polygamous wife.

John Dehlin [00:35:05] And then Heber, you know, as the story goes, Heber cried and gave the hand of his wife to Joseph. And then Joseph was so moved by Heber's loyalty that, that he sealed them together on the spot and said, just kidding, it was an Abrahamic test. I needed to test your loyalty and commit commitment. And, you know, that is a sure sign of a cult leader, some sort of violence, spiritually or psychologically violent. Abrahamic test, when the women are reporting spiritual manipulation, that's certainly a possibility.

John Dehlin [00:35:42] You know, if he's basically calling in an Abrahamic test, which sounds oddly within the very much the realms of possibility. That would be a clear sign of spiritual abuse or manipulation. I would also add, it's really important for people to understand that I've heard from several sources allegations that Tim Ballard would tell these women, as a part of potentially these Abrahamic tests, that he had Mormon Apostle M. Russell Ballard's approval to do these sort of techniques. And in that way, maybe there was a double instance of spiritual manipulation where they felt like a Mormon prophet, seer and revelator and apostle approved of these methods. Again with this idea of how far will you go to save the children?

John Dehlin [00:36:37] You know, what are you willing to do to save the children? And some say that's probably potentially one of the main reasons, in addition to the allegations of improper business dealings between Tim Ballard and Mormon Apostle M. Russell Ballard, that the church took this. The Mormon Church took the extraordinary step of publicly denouncing one of its most loved and supported spokespeople and voices. Because I showed you in a previous Mormon Stories episode, you know, something like 230 Deseret News articles promoting Tim Ballard, all the books that Deseret Books sold of Tim Ballard's and all the talks that M. Russell Ballard gave naming Tim Ballard. It's just.

John Dehlin [00:37:26] It was just outrageous. And so if it's true that Tim Ballard was telling these women, and maybe even his own wife that it was an Abrahamic test to engage in sexual activity with him as a way to show their loyalty and that Mormon Apostle M. Russell Ballard approved, then that's deeply problematic and concerning.

John Dehlin [00:37:52] And I just don't know whether there's any. Any truth to that. And so we'll just have to see in the coming weeks and months what evidence comes about now, also, something that my friend Nick said to me, why is. Why is Tim Ballard, you know, in that last video describing his wife's feelings, his wife's support? Why isn't his wife on Tim's Instagram channel sharing her own support? Now, a counter to that is that we know that Tim Ballard's wife, Catherine, did go on a local Utah podcast and say something like, I know. I know he has to do these dark things, and I don't even really want to know about it, but I support him.

John Dehlin [00:38:38] And, you know, he's. He's good to me and he's faithful, that. That sort of thing. So Catherine has spoken out, but, you know, we'll see whether her loyalty holds. All right, so the next. The next clip that I want to show is Tim Ballard putting forward a woman who claims to have been one of his operatives. In the couple's roofs. And I just want to play this to show at least from his perspective, you know, one. One example of a woman that says nothing inappropriate went on. And then we'll. We'll discuss that.

Undercover Operator Speaks Out

Guest 2 [00:39:14] Hey, there. My name is Natalia, and I have been an undercover operator with our. For over a year. I worked on various missions with Tim Ballard, specifically ranging from different countries, different continents. And during my time working with Tim, there has been zero inappropriate behavior, any sexual contact, any inappropriate sexual contact whatsoever before, during, or after a mission. Everything was kept very respectful, very professional. In fact, I think the OER team went above and beyond to make sure the safety of both the operators and the victims and anybody involved in a mission during my time. In our different missions, we had to deploy different tactics depending on the scenarios, one of which was the couples Route Rouge, which involved us posing as a couple during those missions.

Guest 2 [00:40:09] Specifically, there was, again, absolutely zero sexual contact, touching, anything inappropriate of that nature. Everything was very much professional and respectful through and through, from start to finish. Hey, there. My name is Natalia.

John Dehlin [00:40:24] Okay, So, I mean, that's not. That's not worthless feedback. She's saying no sexual contact or inappropriate sexual contact. The problem is she's just one of the women. And so just because one woman experienced no sexual contact by her report, that doesn't mean other women didn't.

John Dehlin [00:40:49] Yeah. Someone's asking how much was she paid to say this? Again, that would be speculation. But this reminds me of Joseph Smith in his polygamy. What Mormon apologists like to say is there's plenty of women who were old, who weren't attractive. There's no babies. You know, there were clearly some polygamous marriages that were spiritual only, that didn't. Weren't consummated by sex. But the fault in logic there is. Just because he didn't have sex with some of them, you know, doesn't mean that he didn't also have sex with some of them. So that's the problem there.

Jimmy Rex Shares His Experience on Operations

John Dehlin [00:41:31] All right, so the next thing I want to share is a video by my friend Jimmy Rex. Jimmy Rex went on several jumps by his report with Tim Ballard. He was there and watched the Paul Hutchinson situation directly.

John Dehlin [00:41:51] And, you know, he. He claims to have spoken with several of these women and knows from their testimony firsthand what they are alleging. So what I'd like to do now is play. Play this clip and give you all a chance to hear from Jimmy Rex's own words what he knows. And again, I'm not saying that this is true. These are allegations, but Jimmy certainly is closer to this story than any of us. So let's play Jimmy a little bit of Jimmy.

▶ Video Clip 4

Video Clip 4 [00:42:26] Rex and I want to kind of talk about some of the things that are happening today, but also kind of how, like why I have this insider information. I just know all the characters in the story and I've talked to them personally since all this has been going down. And the thing that made me mad about Tim recently is, is I feel like I'm kind of duped. I feel like I got duped. I feel like I never thought Tim would do the things that have come out and the things that haven't come out yet that are going to come out.

Video Clip 4 [00:42:55] I'll just cut through the suspense for you. It's a lot worse than the article said. Tim wasn't just sleeping in the same bed and showering with these women. He was full on having affairs. I know the names of multiple people that he had the affairs with. Broke up families. And that's going to come out. And the thing that I can't figure out is he knows this is going to come out. Like he knows these stories are going to break. He knows that he's dead in the water. The church does not throw people under the bus, by the way. The church is smart.

Video Clip 4 [00:43:22] Um, if you think of the church as like an organization with self preservation, it's a lot easier to understand a lot of the things that they do. Tim did have a very close relationship with M. Russell Ballard. Very obvious. They have pictures of them traveling and doing other things.

Video Clip 4 [00:43:36] He also was a silent partner, according to Tim, in this whole thing that he was trying to do. The whiteboard video and all that stuff. Everybody's seen that there's a silent partner was one of these. And Paul should probably just come out and talk about this stuff. But he's talked about on the record before. And long story short, at that meeting, Tim had mentioned that his silent partner was emerysil Ballard. The church is smart enough to know this. They don't want once they found out that Tim was having affairs and he was using Emerson Ballard's name, saying that he basically okayed it to fool these women that were volunteering for our.

Video Clip 4 [00:44:14] And that's why he was essentially betrayed so badly that here's why. The church publicly made sure that everybody knew that the church didn't endorse Tim or O. R Because it's that bad. Church never does that. They've never done that for somebody that was an active member unless they needed to get ahead of the story. And so when you think about that that way, you know, it's not the church's fault. I was duped by Tim, too.

Video Clip 4 [00:44:39] We wanted to rescue children. That's what the mission was. That's what everything was supposed to be about. Yet and over. I saw firsthand Tim's ego and Paul's ego, if I'm being honest, and he's one of my close friends. And so, you know, I'm going to be honest here about a couple things, though. But him and Tim, their egos absolutely destroyed at that time what was going on with ur, and I'll explain.

Video Clip 4 [00:45:04] So, long story short, you saw the Vice article this week about the psychic. You saw the Vice article about when Paul touched the breast of an underage girl, which, by the way, she's not underage. She was proven to be over 18. That part of the story didn't come out till later, for whatever reason, so that they could add on to the article instead of saying it up front. Because I think it does matter a lot. I was there. I was 10ft away when it happened. And I'll say this, I'm not going to say too much about that, because that's Paul's story to tell. But at the end of the day, three things crossed my mind when that happened.

Video Clip 4 [00:45:38] And by the way, you have to understand that there was bad guys undercover and there was evil dudes. These were the most evil dudes we'd ever arrested. We never worked with, we'd ever met. That particular op, we were dealing with three different groups of traffickers. It was in Cabo and it was right downtown. If you've ever been to Cabo, it's not that big of a downtown. And two of the traffickers, when they heard we were dealing with this other trafficker, by the way, I hate that the story, like, publicly says where we were, that puts our lives, I feel like, a little bit in danger because, I don't know, I mean, these.

Video Clip 4 [00:46:05] We got people arrested, Traffickers, really bad people. And so I'm not sure why that part of the story gets told publicly, but it's out there, so whatever. But when the trafficker that we ended up working with found out, when the other two traffickers found out we were working with them, they said, we can't work with you then because that guy runs the town. And so we knew we were working with some really bad dudes. So you got to understand that, like, in that moment, we were like, oh, shit, that was the most serious this had ever gotten.

Video Clip 4 [00:46:33] And they basically, the way it would work is we had an undercover camera with us. We had to prove that they had these underage girls or else we couldn't get an op set up. And so we had already talked to these guys, and they said they had 25 girls that were underage. And essentially we said, we have to get video footage or else we can't do the op. And so we told these guys, we'll pay you to show us the girls that you're trafficking. That was the way that essentially it worked. Just so we had proof that it was happening. Like, there was already plenty of proof that they did have people they were trafficking.

Video Clip 4 [00:47:11] But what people don't understand is when you go undercover, you never see the girls. Like, you only meet them briefly, like in a parking lot or a Walmart or something, just. Or at a restaurant so that you can tell that they have them. We get a video of it, and then the police will set up the sting.

Video Clip 4 [00:47:24] And so we were trying to get proof that they had it. So just get. You know, just meet them, and they say, yeah, come with us. They took us to this strip club that was on the main drag of Cabo right downtown. And we didn't even go in. We're downstairs in the lobby, and they brought these girls down the stairs that were working at the strip club. And we were kind of already like, oh, shit. Like, they're probably not underage then because they're working publicly in the strip club. And long story short, the guy was like, see, look, this is one of them. He told her to lift up a shirt or he said, upper shirt or whatever.

Video Clip 4 [00:47:56] And then he, like, motioned to Paul, like, to touch them. Paul did. And I remember thinking at the time, number one, I was like, we were dealing with, again, these were some evil freaking dudes. So, number one, I remember thinking, gosh, I'm glad it wasn't me that he pointed out. Number two, I remember thinking, I'm glad Paul didn't hesitate. And number three, I remember thinking, I probably wouldn't. I wish that didn't happen. That probably wasn't a good idea that he did that.

Video Clip 4 [00:48:22] I think I even mentioned that to Paul later. That being said, it was tricky. Things aren't black and white. Multiple things can be true. And now I'm going to speak to a bigger issue that, like, a lot of people have talked about, whether or not we were causing trafficking to happen or not, or soliciting for trafficking, because it looks like based on that article that we were trying to find, because he says, mas fresca, the whole reason for that is, like, we already knew we were dealing with the traffickers in Kaaba. We'd been. This had been verified from two other groups of traffickers. And so we were trying to just get video footage.

Video Clip 4 [00:48:53] And so the whole conversation was around, like, were those girls 16, were they not? And we were kind of hoping so because that meant we could do an op and rescue whoever came. Now, also on these ops, when the women would get rescued, when the girls would get rescued, typically about a third of them to half of them would actually be underage. The rest would not. And so it wasn't unusual to. It's like, okay, well, even if, you know, they're not all underage, like, it's still helping them out or whatever. And there were some of the ops, I will say, you know, to that point, about three years ago, I told the girl I was dating at the time that I was done doing undercover ops.

Video Clip 4 [00:49:32] And the reason I told her this, and this is the only time I ever shared that until right now, is I said, you know, it doesn't sit right with me completely the way they're doing it. I said, two things are true here. Number one is we have absolutely rescued some girls that were being trafficked. We found them. We had recorded conversation from the Mexican federales. This was the only proof I've ever had that these girls were being trafficked. They were begging the guys not to traffic them anymore. They were, but it wasn't like that. They don't hold them behind cages and things like that. Like, they lived at home, but they would basically call them and say, you're doing this.

Video Clip 4 [00:50:05] One of the arrests we did, it was a eighth grade school teacher, and she would use her position to get these girls. She'd just tell them they were coming to a party. They'd go to the party, and next thing they knew, they were being, you know, raped, drugged, told that if they told anybody, they would, you know, kill them or they'd tell their parents what they did. And. And so that's how trafficking usually works. It wasn't like these girls were being held against their will 24 7. And so a lot of times when people think of trafficking, it's just not how it's portrayed. Even in the Sound of Freedom, I didn't love parts of that movie because I had to tell a bunch of people that asked me about it.

Video Clip 4 [00:50:36] Now, it's not really how it works. It does work that way sometimes, but it's very rare. By the way, these stats, and I'm all over the place. I'm not using notes. I'm just trying to speak for my heart here. I just feel like I should share the information that I have. A lot of the stats that come out about how many kids are being trafficked around the world, they say like 2 million. Then I heard it was 8 million. Now, I don't believe those numbers. If I'm being honest, I think it's much less. And the reason I believe that is because we went to multiple cities and never found anybody trafficking kids.

Video Clip 4 [00:51:05] We went to Mexico City multiple times, went to several places around Latin and South America and couldn't find trafficking. We just left. We didn't. We'd go down for three days, and we were really good at it. The reason why we were good undercover is because we were able to speak, and we're very good at just making friends with people. And that's what it was all about. You basically, you'd usually meet somebody, a street hustler who would meet, you know, they would know somebody who knew somebody that was trafficking kids. And half the time we tried, we couldn't find anybody. And I thought that was awesome.

Guest 6 [00:51:34] And so I don't think the problem is prevailing, as they say. I will say that it's my own personal opinion. They can use whatever stats they want, but that's my personal opinion. The other thing I had a problem with, though, the reason why I stopped doing it is because there were times when I felt like. So one of the opposite we did, I'll be honest. It was the one in Cancun. It was the one that Tim led me.

Guest 6 [00:51:53] These guys, these kids, they were like, 22, 23. I don't think they had been trafficking if they had, not much. And I remember, you know, they went out and they found these guys, and it took them about three days in Cancun to find anybody trafficking somebody. And they finally found these kids. And part of me was like, well, were these guys really trafficking? They were young kids. They were kind of idiots. They were like, 20 again. They're like in their young 20s. And I remember when they showed up to the party and they had these girls, and I remember thinking to myself, like, did these guys just go round up some girls they know or like, whatever, and said, come to this party.

Guest 6 [00:52:24] Sleep with these Americans. These rich Americans will pay you, or something. And I never. It just never sat right with me. And I saw that firsthand. And so when people say maybe they create trafficking, I'm not saying that didn't happen.

Guest 6 [00:52:38] I do think it was a flawed method. Now, looking back with perspective. At the time, I didn't know anything. I was just the guy going on the ops, and that was the way they were doing it. But as I look back now, it's very conflicting, because on one hand, I absolutely think that there was probably a few guys that went out to find girls to. To bring back because they were trying to get tips from Paul or from Tim or whoever, and. And they, you know, were trying to prove that they were traffickers. I had to tell one kid in Ecuador. I remember he was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, We.

Guest 6 [00:53:07] We traffic girls or whatever. And I remember looking at the kid like, this kid doesn't traffic girls. He was, like, 21 years old. He's like, yeah, yeah. And I remember, he's like, I'll be back in two hours. I'll show you. And he brings this girl back. She was, like, 16, probably. And he's like, yeah, yeah. What do you guys think? And I remember I pull him aside. We're in, like, the basement of this, like, warehouse thing.

Guest 6 [00:53:28] And I'm like, dude, this. You. This isn't. Who is this? Is this your sister? Is this your girlfriend or what? And he's kind of like, what? And I was like, is this your girlfriend? He's like, yeah. I was like, you don't traffic this girl, do you? And he's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I said, dude, get her out of here. You don't know what the you're doing. Get her out of here. You don't traffic this girl.

Guest 6 [00:53:45] And he's like, okay. And that was my last stop I ever did. I was done after that. I said, I. I'm not doing this anymore. I was terrible undercover, if I'm being honest. I was good because I spoke Spanish. I could translate. And the. The truth is, I. The reason why Paul's the one that got in trouble is because Paul was so good undercover. We didn't have guns. We didn't have backup. The only thing we had was the fact that they never knew why we were actually there. If they had any inkling that we were not undercover, we would have been dead multiple times. And that op in Kaaba was the most dangerous one we ever did.

Guest 6 [00:54:12] By far. These were the most evil dudes we ever took down. That's why I hate that it's out there that it was Cabo where this happened, because it does put some danger on those that were there. That being said, it is what it is. We were dealing with some people in Dominican Republic that got killed while we were doing the undercover work. We went the first weekend. And while, you know, we found this guy, he was a bad dude, and he got killed before we even got back there. I mean, this dude was in some. Some bad stuff. And so there's two things can be true at once.

Guest 6 [00:54:39] And this is the part that I want people to understand is, number one is those ops absolutely needed to stop. I've had. I don't want to call it guilt, but I've had this thing hanging over it where it's like, part of that was kind of bullshit.

Guest 6 [00:54:52] But then there's also the other part where I absolutely know we rescued girls, and I know that we saved their lives. And so both things can be true. I've always been conflicted over that. I've only shared it again with the girl that I was dating a couple of years ago. It's just been one of those things that. How do you talk about that? Because I didn't want the work to stop. I wanted our to keep rescuing the ones that needed rescuing. But I also saw the problems with the way they were doing it. And I'm just trying to be very honest here.

Guest 6 [00:55:16] So those things can both be true. Another thing that where two things can be true at once is I think Tim had good intent to start this. I think any guy that was in the business that he was in that had to look at that stuff that he did.

Guest 6 [00:55:26] I don't know how you come back from that. I. I would never in a million years let somebody I love be in that business or whatever. Very grateful that the entire time I was undercover, we never once had to see any pictures of any girls. We never had to see any girls. None of that was a part it. We only would see the girls when they would bring them to get verification, and then at the party when they showed up where they got rescued. And so I wish I knew the outcome of some of the girls that we rescued, of all the rescues we ever did.

Guest 6 [00:55:52] I never got a single update. I tried multiple times getting updated what happened to them later. And so people have criticized o for their aftercare and all these things. I have no idea. I wish ou was more transparent with that. But I also see that they're like trafficking victims. So how do you talk about that? Right.

Guest 6 [00:56:08] So I don't know what that is. I do have another entire problem with this entire thing. And this is what I want to say about. Like, there's this thing energetically with the universe that, like, when you start talking about something more, it's like you're. You're gonna notice it more. You're going to be more aware of it. And I think the very act of talking with my. I've changed my opinion on this. My original opinion was like, we have to make sure everybody knows about trafficking. This is like this evil that nobody's talking about, that nobody knows about.

Guest 6 [00:56:35] And so it was like I wanted to help spread the word to everybody. And the more it talk gets talked about, though, the more it becomes real to people. And I think that plants the seed for a lot of people that never would have thought about it to actually participate in it. And I The numbers that I've heard that it's only going up. The number of children being trafficked in the last 10 years. So since AUR was founded, it's not doing any better. It's actually doing much worse. I have no verification of these stats, by the way, but I did hear this from a very reliable person.

Guest 6 [00:57:04] So I think that they're. There's this level of harm that gets done by almost normalizing it or talking about it all the time, where. And then, you know, you got the qanon people that just make it. They think everybody's a pedophile. And that's a whole problem because then it just makes the whole thing look ridiculous, like it's not happening at all. And so I just think that the whole thing is. I kind of wish. I don't know. Like, part of me thinks that it needs, like, the very act of sound, of freedom becoming the number one movie. It's great for awareness. But how many people now have the seed planted that, oh my gosh, you can actually go get this where they never would have thought about it before.

Assessing Jimmy Rex's Account and Comments

Guest 6 [00:57:36] And so that part is tricky. And I think that that is being miss. It's just not being counted into the fact of everything that's going on. So as far as what happens next, like I said with our. When I was working with them, me, Andy McCubbins, Sean Reyes, Sean Whalen, Paul Hutchinson. There was a bunch of us that would go together undercover. There's a bunch of other great men, Dave Lopez, all these other great guys. And one by one, they would keep getting eliminated out. And I'm like, why. Why does. Why does everyone keep getting kicked out? And every time I was with Tim in a private conversation, I remember just thinking, like, this dude, this.

Guest 6 [00:58:15] This job's bigger than him. Like, it just. He's. He doesn't. I think that's what happened. I think he had a good heart about it, but I think the thing was just too big. For him. And so I think it overwhelmed him. He didn't trust anybody. If you guys go back to the Vice article from two years ago, Vice called me. They wanted my opinion. They tried to make me look stupid. They said that realtors are the ones going undercover.

Guest 6 [00:58:35] You know, they discounted the amount of intelligence I think that I have in social settings, my ability to make friends with people, my ability to just be able to control situations, get things done. But whatever, I was just a realtor. So, for the record, I guess that's true.

Guest 6 [00:58:50] But the one thing they quoted me correctly, I was grateful they did is, you know, they said, why'd you get kicked out of our. And I said, well, I wanted to say, in a way, like, essentially, what happened is Tim and Paul got in a big fight. It was over a couple things. It started. I'll just tell you guys how it started, is Tim and Paul were at one of. It's a fundraiser that I threw.

John Dehlin [00:59:10] All right, so I'm going to go ahead and stop now. And I'm reading a lot of the comments, and people are concerned about. You know, some people are criticizing Jimmy. Rex, I'll just say at the outset, Jimmy is a Internet friend of mine in the sense that I've come on his podcast. We've never hung out together. We've never even done lunch that I can remember.

John Dehlin [00:59:34] But I did come on his podcast once, and we've texted each other over the years. For some reason, I've been on his list of invitees to various events that he holds every year, kind of like community events, I think, for the work that he does.

John Dehlin [00:59:53] But, you know, again, we've never hung out. But I'm. I'm grateful a lot of people are criticizing Jimmy here, that Jimmy is basically trying to cover his. But some people are saying that may be true. I do want to say that we need whistleblowers in this world, and we have too few of them. Uh, Adam.

John Dehlin [01:00:19] You know, recently, someone that I interviewed, Adam Steed, said, the courage is courageous. And I. I hope that that's true, but the truth is, I've known about Jody Hildebrandt for years, and people were just too afraid to come out against her. People have known about. I know people right now who, even after all of the bad, you know, news that's come out about Tim Ballard, they were there. They saw the fraud, they saw the deception, and they do not feel safe coming out. I don't criticize people who don't feel safe to come out, but I do. I will say that I really do honor and respect whistleblowers, people that, that have the courage to speak up, even when they're afraid of what the consequences might be.

John Dehlin [01:01:02] I think I learned that from the Mormon Church. Do what is right, let the consequence follow. So I'm grateful for Jimmy Rex, for him just, just that, that story that he told about meeting that kid in Ecuador who brings a girl who you can tell, you know, he wasn't really trafficking the girl and that they were kind of creating demand. That's a really powerful story and we've got it from someone who is there also, Jimmy Rex basically admitting that the, the approach they were taking didn't feel right and that in multiple cities they could not find child trafficking and they just left. Imagine that.

John Dehlin [01:01:42] Hundreds of thousands of dollars, millions of dollars in travel, all the people, the lodging, whatever parties they had going and paying for these jumps where they just like came back because they couldn't find any kids. That's a really important acknowledgment. And so I'm super, super grateful to Jimmy Rex for giving that. Now, one of the things that Jimmy Rex says that's kind of difficult to hear, and I've actually heard that this for many people is many of the people that went on the jumps believe that some women or some children were rescued, even though they also believe that there was a lot of fraud and misrepresentation and unsafe practices and harmful practices.

John Dehlin [01:02:26] And this is something we all have to kind of reconcile is what do we do if some good was done by Tim Ballard? It reminds me of Mormonism, frankly. Joseph Smith and Mormonism. You could easily argue that so much good has come from Joseph Smith of the Mormon Church, that whatever bad he did is outweighed. Others would say the deception and the sexual predation trumps any good that the church might do.

John Dehlin [01:02:55] But that's something that the people have to decide on an individual basis. But I for one, am grateful for Jimmy Rex, for him being willing to come out. Now I'm going to play some breaking news I think that's going to be breaking for some people. Thanks to my, you know, one of my contacts, Diana, for showing this to me. I'm going to show you now a page on the AdamCola.com website.

Tim Ballard on the Adam Carolla Show

John Dehlin [01:03:20] It's, it's a photo of the Adam Carolla show. I believe he's a super popular podcaster. And this is an episode called Tim Ballard and wife Catherine, plus Jim Lampley. And I'm told that this, this, this podcast was released in the past day or so. I can't confirm that. But what I want you to see, what I want you to see at the bottom of this podcast is this photo that I opened the podcast with. It's the photo of Tim Ballard attached to the bottom of this Adam Carolla podcast episode that includes Tim Ballard and his wife Catherine. And I'm told that there's a clip where Adam acknowledges the legitimacy of the photo.

John Dehlin [01:04:11] Now, this is completely breaking news. I have not confirmed. I've not even listened to this clip I'm about to play. I've got some. Gerardo's kind of doing some investigation behind the scenes for me, and my friend Diana is also doing some investigations for me behind the scenes. So now I am going to play this clip that I've never seen before, where apparently Tim Ballard, with his wife Catherine, holding his hand, acknowledges that the photo is legit. So let's play the clip.

▶ Video Clip 5

Video Clip 5 [01:04:46] Okay. And that was written contemporaneous to the other testimonies I gave. And they said, look, Tim, Bella's taking credit for rescuing her when she rescued her son. And they knew darn well that I hadn't clarified. They did a whole story just on that. So that was 2020. They've never let up. We gotta find something wrong with this guy. And I think it has to do with the fact that I showed up with Trump.

Video Clip 5 [01:05:06] Yeah.

Video Clip 5 [01:05:06] Well, you said if we built a wall at the Mexican border, then that would help this horrible process that you're involved with. And then they heard wall, and now it's you and Trump. And now the Trump derangement kicks in, and now you must be taken down, even if motives are to save children.

Video Clip 5 [01:05:27] That's right. And every story, no matter what the allegation is, it seems like there's a picture when I was briefing Trump in the White House. So once you have that picture up, then the left or leftist. I'll say, say anything you want now, because he's sitting next to Trump talking to him.

Video Clip 5 [01:05:43] Yeah. So the allegations were you showed them a picture of you, your tattoos and your underwear. You insisted on sleeping in the same bed with them and showering with them and things of that nature. Can you address that?

Video Clip 5 [01:06:01] Yeah. The picture is so funny. I have it. I'm talking to my team. I'll show it to you. It was taken by the tattoo artist. I'm completely asleep on a couch with my hands and arms propped with pillows. And it takes hours to do this. It's like. It's like an actor, like a movie. I have tats all over my body. So I'M in my underwear and I have tats on my leg. I'm asleep. It takes hours. You gotta lay there for, like, a couple hours while it dries. It's a henna tattoo.

Video Clip 5 [01:06:31] Oh, it's a henna tattoo.

Video Clip 5 [01:06:33] Yes, henna tattoos. I'm getting ready for an operation. So the tattoo artist named Katie, who. She's done a video we haven't posted. She took a picture because I have to go back many, many times in that cover role, in that role. So she took a picture while I'm asleep. It wasn't sexy. It wasn't anything. It was just to take a picture. And then she sent it to a couple people and said, hey, keep this archived so that when Tim goes back into this case, I can redesign it exactly the same. We can't be off here. And that's the entirety of the picture. That's it.

Video Clip 5 [01:07:04] So these. Well, can we see that picture?

Video Clip 5 [01:07:07] Sure.

Video Clip 5 [01:07:09] Well, tell your team to. To send it to our team.

Video Clip 5 [01:07:12] They'll put it up, but I mean.

Video Clip 5 [01:07:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:14] All right, so I'm gonna go ahead and pause it there. And so that's his justification that he. That he had to have tattoos to help show that he was a bad guy and that he paid a woman to do the tattoos in his underwear so that they would be the same. Now, I have a question already.

John Dehlin [01:07:35] If he's bringing the wife. If he's bringing the fake wife to do the couple's ruse so that he doesn't have to sleep with the sex workers, you know, based on what the bad guys demand for him to show his legitimacy, if he's not having sex with the sex workers because he's bringing a fake wife as part of the couple's ruse, then why in the fetch, does he need tattoos all over his body? Why does he need tattoos, you know, above his penis? Why does he need, you know, tattoos on his chest and on his abdomen?

John Dehlin [01:08:16] Again, is it. Wouldn't the couple Ruse. Couples ruse. Make it so he would never be naked with anyone where they would ever see those parts of his body. That. That doesn't make sense. I also, again, that, you know, something that needs to be understood about these.

John Dehlin [01:08:38] Our jumps with Tim Ballard is that they usually didn't go. They didn't go on these jumps with intelligence where they're like, they've, you know, worked with local operatives to find a bad guy, and then he's going to be the undercover agent, and then he's going to be meeting with the bad guy, and then they're going to bust a Ring again. It was more them showing up in a seedy part of town and saying, hey, we have money. Can anyone bring us underage girls? And in that context, why would anyone ever need to see a tattoo above his penis? Why would anybody need to see a tattoo on his abdomen or on his leg?

John Dehlin [01:09:19] Because all that's going to happen is he's going to set up a sting, someone's going to bring a bunch of girls, and then all the. All the. All the, you know, all the Navy SEALs are going to bust in and arrest the pimps before any sex actually takes place, before clothes are even taken off. So I'm calling BS Based on what I know there is. There's. I can think of no good reason why. Why Tim Ballard would need to have tattoos above his penis. And by the way, pay for these tattoos.

John Dehlin [01:09:58] We know that he not only paid for psychics to talk to, you know, Nephi to find out where Garthy was in Haiti, and then it was a failed operative. Not only was he paying a psychic at over, I believe, $100,000 a year, why was he paying this artist, this female artist?

John Dehlin [01:10:19] I'd love to see a picture of this female artist, by the way, why was he stripping down to his underwear and paying a female artist to make identical tattoos over time in multiple ops? I just. I'm struggling to feel like that's a good, good use of the money. And we know that our raised, I don't know, 50, $100 million, but, you know, that, you know, that justification just doesn't make sense to me. Let's go ahead and see really quickly if there is anything else interesting shared on this Adam Carolla podcast episode.

▶ Video Clip 6

Video Clip 6 [01:11:04] So this is the kind of nonsense that, you know, again, you just have to, I don't know, it's a new world order. We have to just deal with this on a daily basis. So you would get tattoos as part of the role, part of the character that you were. The kind of guy who would be into this would be the kind of guy who had tattoos. Is that why you did the.

Video Clip 6 [01:11:27] Absolutely.

Video Clip 6 [01:11:28] But you didn't want permanent tattoos?

Video Clip 6 [01:11:30] No, no, we do. We have a couple of Henhart tattoo artists, and they get us looking like crazy party, you know, partiers and tourists.

Video Clip 6 [01:11:41] The other was insisting on sleeping in the same bed with the woman.

Video Clip 6 [01:11:46] No, I mean, the closest that allegation would come from is the story I told you where we're getting a couple's massage and she's blocking for each other, so no one's actually getting touched by the Sex worker. And we're having credibility. So that would be the closest to that. You know, like.

Video Clip 6 [01:12:01] But you're on separate beds.

Video Clip 6 [01:12:03] Yeah. You're on separate.

Video Clip 6 [01:12:04] Separate tables.

Video Clip 6 [01:12:04] Yeah.

Video Clip 6 [01:12:05] Yeah. But how would it work if you're posing with your wife and you come into town, do you have to stay at the same hotel? Do you have. You have to stay in the same room? I mean, you never know who's watching, who's talking. It makes certain degree of sense, even, that you sleep in the same bed. I mean, it's a little iffy. But what I'm saying is you definitely wouldn't check into the local hotel and then just go. You go to the right, I'll go to the left. Because the guy behind the counter may call in and go, these guys aren't staying in the same room.

Video Clip 6 [01:12:36] So this is all thought out well in advance. Rents. And we. We get hotels that are suites or we're with where we. Where there's multiple people renting a house. And so. Because we have to be careful. It's true. They could be watching us. Okay, are they still a couple? They're going into a hotel. Where are they going? So I have logistics guys on the ground that they'll either get hotel rooms that are suites and they're in there already. And, you know, I'm always hanging out with someone else, like, oh, my buddy's traveling with me too. Right. So, yeah, I mean, we consider ourselves undercover the whole time, and we'll go into what we call the, you know, the Stinghouse. And usually we do Airbnb because that's easier. And we just go in. So if they see us go in, and there's five bedrooms in there.

Guest [01:13:19] Right.

Tim Ballard [01:13:19] And the bag isn't coming into the bedroom, into the house to see that you're not in the same room, so.

Guest [01:13:23] Right. And then shower together.

▶ Video Clip 7

Video Clip 7 [01:13:26] Yeah, that came. That story is a. A true story that I've told, and I'll tell it again. We rescued 27 kids. It was all. There's one time ever that this happened. We were doing the couples ruse in a spa called the Spa Bonjavo in Dominican Republic. And the intel said that kids were being sold out of that place. So I was actually working with one of our operators. Her name is Marisol Nichols. She's actually an actress and an operator, so she does a very good job. And we were doing the massage thing, but I didn't. I ordered a. We ordered, like, a mud thing, because I don't.

Video Clip 7 [01:14:05] The massage thing leads to having to fight the sexual touching Stuff with the sex workers. So we said, let's start with the mud, and I'll get the intel before it's over. Well, I didn't get the intel before it was over, but I was this close. She was about to tell me where they were, so we said, hey, can you order a different thing? Can you order a different. A different service while we have his massage? Like, all right. I had to stay there because I'm this close to getting them to tell me right where the kids are. So they say, okay. So they open this door, and there's a.

Video Clip 7 [01:14:31] There's a shower. So, you know, shower up. And we're like, oh, you're gonna leave the room? And like, no, we're gonna. We gotta clean this mess up and prepare for the massage. So we're like, oh, crap. Well, here we go. You know, I told my wife about it. So we. We went in there, and you have to think on your feet. So I throw that. I throw towel over the.

Video Clip 7 [01:14:50] Over the window so they can't see. And we're, you know, we're wearing clothes. We're wearing. You're wearing your bathing suit. You know, you don't go naked in these things. And so she goes in, I go in, and we just. We don't even touch each other. And the towel conceals that we're not, you know.

Video Clip 7 [01:15:04] Right.

Video Clip 7 [01:15:04] And so we've told that story. Like, that was crazy. That was awkward. You just tell one person, and then it goes boom, boom, boom. Oh, he takes showers.

Video Clip 7 [01:15:11] Right?

Video Clip 7 [01:15:12] And. And I know that's where it came from. You know, I was like, I already took a shower. And Marshall said, yeah, well, not really. And by the way, the 27 kids who were rescued in the particular case, they were from Colombia, Venezuela. They were being kept in the chicken coop. And this is the part that everyone likes to leave out of the story.

John Dehlin [01:15:28] All right, so really quickly, I don't want to play too much of a single episode of a single segment because YouTube doesn't like it when you play videos for too long. But that. That. That was a really important piece of video that I'm guessing is going to go viral pretty soon. He's basically admitting the shower story. He names. He names the person that was in the shower with him. And so what I'm going to do right now is share the tab. He named Marisol Nichols. And I believe.

John Dehlin [01:16:07] I believe that now I'm showing you the website of Marisol Nichols. There she is. Marisol Nichols. She's an actress, and she. She has a website. It Talks about human rights, etc. And, you know, I think it's. It's going to be really important to find out whether she's one of the. His accusers, because as we started this episode, an attorney claiming to represent several women is now several women who claim Tim Ballard abused them, harassed them, engaged in spiritual manipulation with them.

Guest 5 [01:16:54] I'm.

John Dehlin [01:16:54] I guess we're all going to be wondering now whether Marisol Nichols was one of them. I will say if he has her permission to use her name, that's one thing. If he mentioned her name without permission, and if she's a victim and he mentioned her name, I'm pretty sure that's awful to be publicly naming one of your victims without their consent, especially if they actually are a victim.

John Dehlin [01:17:25] But I. I just want to kind of, like, also reflect on what I'm hearing. So he's leaving his wife at home with nine kids. He's going undercover to these cities like Cancun or Dominican Republic. He's stripping down to his underwear to have a tattoo artist tattoo a bunch of tats on him.

John Dehlin [01:17:47] And then he's going to massage parlors to get couples massages with what some. Some might. Who some might call kind of very attractive actresses and having them pretend to be his. His wife. He says that he was just showering, you know, with Marisol to get the mud off.

John Dehlin [01:18:14] And so I guess he's going to say. And he says they had their bathing suits on. I have not heard. Like, it was not my understanding that people generally did massages with their bathing suits on. My understanding is that people do massages with no bathing suits on, but a towel covering their private parts.

John Dehlin [01:18:36] So that seems interesting. But he's claiming that when he showered with Marisol Nichols, he did it with both of them having bathing suits on. And he's claiming that. Obviously, I guess he's claiming there was no touching, nothing inappropriate.

John Dehlin [01:18:52] I do want to call out. He keeps saying how many children are saved from the couple's ruse. He's saying hundreds of thousands have been saved from the couple's ruse. Part of the problem is we don't have evidence of that. I think that a lot of the people that I know who resigned from our. One of the reasons they resigned is because they kept asking for evidence of the children that were getting saved.

John Dehlin [01:19:16] And. And he would never provide evidence. And Jimmy mentioned this as well. Well, I guess it makes sense that he would want to protect the confidentiality of the kids. But on the other hand, that's a great cover if you're Just partying under the guise of being a rescuer and you're sleeping in beds and showering with, with attractive women and doing all of that as grooming and as manipulation.

John Dehlin [01:19:52] It's a great cover to say you can't share the names or the numbers of the children you saved because you have to predict their confidentiality. So again, if hundreds or thousands of victims have been saved, I think it would be really valuable for him to sort of lay out this operation on this date with these sorts of behaviors in the couple's ruse led to these specific people being saved. Maybe names can be redacted, but I think it would be really important for that to be shared. I guess I'm excited that Adam Carolla is asking him about, you know, the, the showering in the beds, but he's denying it.

John Dehlin [01:20:40] So what this is setting up potentially is a showdown, kind of a he said, she said thing where, you know, because, because what Jimmy Rex just mentioned was that, that Tim Ballard had full on sexual affairs with multiple women and that he destroyed marriages.

John Dehlin [01:21:00] And so what seems to be set up, setting up right now is a battle, he said, she said, with Tim Ballard saying, I did not have sex with these women and these women saying we had full on sex or sexual engagement. And, and hopefully they have proof, they have evidence because, because evidence should rule the day with allegations.

John Dehlin [01:21:28] Again, as we mentioned, false allegations do exist. Sometimes people launch false allegations out of anger or pettiness or jealousy or just, you know, from, from maybe trauma reasons. So it's best when there's evidence. That's when it's most effective. Let's go ahead and jump back to this episode and see if there's anything else interesting that's shared.

▶ Video Clip 8

Video Clip 8 [01:21:55] They're being kept in a chicken coop with a padlock on the outside of, of the chicken coop. And that's where they lived. And they're brought out at night and raped for money by sex tourists. We rescued all of them. And if I had not got into that shower and stood in the corner and touched nobody, that wouldn't have happened. You got to stay in roll.

Video Clip 8 [01:22:18] You would have been made if you said, I'm not going to take a shower with my wife.

Video Clip 8 [01:22:21] Correct.

Video Clip 8 [01:22:22] Because that would have made it seem like you were exactly who you are.

Video Clip 8 [01:22:25] Exactly.

Video Clip 8 [01:22:29] I don't know how folks like from Vice and many of these people that write these articles, I just don't know how they sleep at night. I don't know how they call themselves journalists. That's the part that drives me insane.

John Dehlin [01:22:41] But something that's interesting to me is that the Mormon Church actually behind the scenes. I have a contact that is in these conversations behind the scenes. The Mormon Church right now is extolling the professionalism of Vice News. And I hope that my friends Tim Marshman and Anna can hear this. Somebody share it with them. The Mormon Church is very happy with Vice News. They feel like it was very professional of Vice News to provide the Mormon Church with the evidence that they had to give them a chance to review the evidence and then to give them a chance to respond to the evidence and to comment on the evidence before they broke the story.

John Dehlin [01:23:25] And the Mormon Church's attacks on Tim Ballard were based on the evidence that they reviewed provided by Vice News. So I don't know anything about this Adam Carolla guy, but that's pretty. I think it's pretty irresponsible and kind of laughable that he's criticizing the Vice News people as not being professional journalists when he's just a podcaster and he's just believing Tim Ballard hook, line and sinker. With all the evidence that's out there, including these seven women. Now, I don't think it would be responsible to jump to believing these seven women without hearing their stories and without seeing the evidence, but it's absolutely, grossly irresponsible to just ignore these allegations, to assume that they're false and to just believe Tim Ballard and to just say that Vice News is, you know, is.

John Dehlin [01:24:20] Is, you know, that Tim and Anna at Vice News are unethical reporters. So I, I don't know anything about Adam Corolla, but I already don't. I don't respect him. So anyway, I'm gonna. I'm gonna stop playing that really quickly. I really appreciate my friend Diana for providing me that clip.

John Dehlin [01:24:41] I'm gonna go on now and quickly play a clip by one of Tim Ballard's closest friends and allies, Eric Muchos. I don't know how to pronounce it. My understanding is he's a problematic guy in his own right. That, that a lot of the kind of.

John Dehlin [01:25:04] I won't characterize. I just, I hear there's some problems with how he talks about certain things, but without, without knowing much details, I'm going to stop and not talk about it. I'm going to go ahead and now. You know, this Eric Mustos guy was, Was certainly close to Tim Ballard. Mootsos.

John Dehlin [01:25:22] I understand he's a former police officer, but he also, I believe, went on some of these jumps. And I think it's important to play just like we did. You know, Jimmy Rex, I think it's important to play the testimony of this Eric Mutsos guy. So let's go ahead and play some of this now. I believe he's going to talk about the affairs and he's going to be talking about the couple's ruse and his views on it. And thanks to Gerardo for providing me

Guest 5 [01:25:50] with, with this clip tonight. Tonight, I had another difficult conversation with three more victims of Tim Ballard's manipulation and sexual predator predatory behavior. A few other influential witnesses were there on the call. We heard these heart wrenching stories and more of Tim Ballard's blueprint grooming tactics.

Alleged Systematic Grooming Tactics Detailed

Guest 5 [01:26:17] I guess I'll call them systematic grooming tactics. And so I'll go over these. Hire caring, attractive women who have great desire to help children inflate a sense of importance by convincing these women, most often mothers and wives, that they will be a big part of saving children by being an undercover operative.

Guest 5 [01:26:52] Once sense of purpose is inflated, training sessions begin. While there is some legitimate undercover training being being done in these cases that I've spoken with, training would also consist of creating sexual chemistry into intimacy was needed with Tim. So to create a sexual chemistry into intimacy was needed for Tim.

Guest 5 [01:27:21] This level of intimacy varied from kissing and petting, naked, naked showers to oral sex and possibly more. So from what I understand, Tim Ballard was the only member of the OUR to participate in these types of training sessions. So it's possible that some of the other trainers, they'd go on these couples, the ruse, this couple ruse thing, and sometimes I guess some of them would hold hands.

Guest 5 [01:27:53] We also understand. Let me see if I got. Let me go back here. We also understand that his dismissal resignation from OUR was due to internal complaints due to his sexual behavior. So this is really important. Okay? This is really important because a lot of people are saying, why is this coming out now? Why? Oh, it's really suspect now, which I understand. But when all this stuff pieces together, you're going to understand why this is a big deal. Okay?

Guest 5 [01:28:24] The women were manipulated, participate in these trainings under the guise that they were helping to save children. That this activity had the blessing of Elder Ballard, that the medium and psychic Janet Russo gave readings and inspiration that was the divine will questions were asked from Tim to these women.

John Dehlin [01:28:50] I'm going to pause really quick and just tie a couple Mormon connections here so I can totally see it realistic that Tim would tell these women, hey, we've got. We're going to be actors, we're going to be undercover, we're going to be in front of bad guys, they have to believe that we have intimacy together as a husband and wife life. So we need to practice our intimacy now and while we're there so that we really look the part. So it sounds like, you know, we know that the women are. Are listing grooming and spiritual manipulation in their allegations.

John Dehlin [01:29:30] This sounds like it could be possible. One possible description of the grooming behavior, Tim, basically by. By Eric's report finding women who really believed in the cause and were really committed to the cause, and then taking advantage of their commitment to the cause by then having them do things that sounded edgy, that sounded, you know, courageous and a little bit, you know, spy like. But you gotta. We gotta practice being intimate with each other so that we can play the part. And I could easily see kissing and other forms of sexual behavior coming out of that sort of grooming behaviors if Tim Ballard, in fact, is guilty of those things.

John Dehlin [01:30:19] Again, the allegations are spiritual manipulation. And here Eric Mutsos is both saying that the women were told that these activities had Mormon Apostle M. Russell Ballard's approval. And everybody knew Tim and Tim and Elder Ballard were close. So that was believable, that it had prophetic sanction. If you know anything about Joseph Smith, you know that Joseph Smith would tell women, an angel with the flaming sword is going to kill me if you don't become one of my plural wives and have sex with me.

John Dehlin [01:30:56] Emma, Emma. If you read Doctrine and Covenants, section 132 of Mormon scripture, Joseph Smith tells Emma, if you don't allow me to have polygamous spouses, God's going to destroy you. So it's that sort of spiritual manipulation that they're talking about.

John Dehlin [01:31:14] If Janet Russo is claiming to discern God's divine will, it's not Tim Ballard claiming to be God talking to God, saying this sexual behavior is sanctioned by God. It's basically Tim using Janet Russo to channel Nephi or Jesus or God to then tell these wives in the couple's ruse that God himself approves of these sexual shenanigans. So that's really interesting, and I'm really grateful, you know, for whatever. Whatever problems we know about Eric Mutsos or don't know. So I'm grateful he's spilling the beans here. All right, let's keep rolling the tape.

Guest 5 [01:32:02] What are you willing to do to save children? Sorry, I get emotional about this kind of stuff. You guys. Like, this is. This is deep stuff. Demand complete confidentiality from the victims. Right? So. So this, this process was like you.

John Dehlin [01:32:23] I'm Just gonna say really quickly that, that idea, if it's true that Tim Ballard said, what are you willing to do to save children? How far will you go to save children? And then he was using that to kind of lure women into sexual gratification. That's just full on super evil. And you could see Eric Mutsos getting emotional about that. But, but that's kind of one of the big problems with the whole thing. Everybody I've talked to, people very close to me who have said, hey, if, if Tim Ballard was a complete fraud, stole money, you know, ripped the world off, if he saved one child from sex trafficking, it's all okay, because I would pay.

John Dehlin [01:33:02] If I had $100 million. You know, this is a friend that, that I've talked with. If I had a hundred million dollars, I would pay $100 million to save one child. So give Tim Ballard a complete pass because he was helping some women and some children. And that's a really important thing we have to think about. Nonprofits exist. I run a nonprofit. Nonprofits are always going to be imperfect. They're always going to make mistakes because organizations and humans always make mistakes.

John Dehlin [01:33:33] And so it's a matter of degree. Is your non profit making super awful, horrendous, illegal, abusive mistakes, or are they making innocent, reasonable, practical stakes or, you know, omissions that are done in good nature? We have to be able to think on a spectrum of bad, of spectrum of evil. And again, if a nonprofit is raising, you know, 50, 60, 80, $100 million and they've got the money to pay for extensive staff and HR and policies, you know, they probably have less of an excuse than a super small mom and pop shop that's running on a really tight budget. Also, the more money that a nonprofit receives, you would think the higher percentage of that money would be going to the actual cause, to the victims, to aftercare treatment, to make the intervention safe.

John Dehlin [01:34:40] But if the majority of the money is going to line the profits of those involved without really adding any true value to victims, or if it's just fraud where the victims aren't really being helped at all and just a bunch of people are making a bunch of money and the nonprofit isn't doing what it says it's doing, or it's only doing a fraction of what it claims to be doing, whether it's taking credit for the work of others, lying about exaggerating what it's doing, or just having a bunch of failed operations that give men the right to have couples jacuzzis and couples Massages and couple showers and bedtime with fake wives undercover, but no children are actually being rescued, then that's a deep, significant problem.

John Dehlin [01:35:31] So we need to be able to teach through this and just by. By a sense of problem, of degree, assess how much irresponsible and unethical and potentially illegal behavior is. Is going on. All right, let's keep going with Eric.

Guest 5 [01:35:49] You can't tell anybody about this. Right. Have victims erase all digital correspondence with. Which was meant to be part of the couple's ruse. In the supported case that a sex trafficker grabbed their phone and wanted to see salacious material, they would see correspondence from said victim and Ballard, possibly. Ballard would maintain the correspondence and cherry pick text to make it look like he could blackmail them if they said anything about the ruse.

John Dehlin [01:36:20] I'm just gonna say, if it's true that Tim Ballard was telling victims to delete evidence, that makes no sense to me, because a victim should be able to pursue legal recourse and to ultimately convict the criminals. And so you wouldn't ever want to be telling a victim of a crime to be deleting evidence. So if Tim Ballard was telling victims to delete evidence, that seems deeply problematic to me.

Guest 5 [01:36:51] Particular operations did not yield the amount of sex trafficked children he is claiming. So this is all notes. Okay. Many of the other operatives were much more successful than Tim not using the couple's ruse. Multiple marriages have been broken up. Tim is attached to this psychic medium, Jennifer Russo. I think that's how you say her last name. So questions that I'm getting so really quickly.

John Dehlin [01:37:27] Just a couple things. The reporting that I've seen is that this psychic, Janet Russo, was getting paid six figures. Now, it. I think I read that she was placed to be over one of the other nonprofit shells that Tim Ballard was running. It, it appears, if you've seen the whiteboard, it seems like he was setting up a bunch of nonprofits and for profits to be able to launder and siphon money between nonprofits and between nonprofits and for profits. And my understanding is that's illegal kind of stuff.

John Dehlin [01:38:01] But, you know, if it's true that he was spending six figures to pay a medium to spiritually coerce women into having. Granting Tim Ballard sexual favors, that's a problem. And if he was, you know, and I know that the. The Guardi search in Haiti began with Janet Russo claiming that she saw Garthy being held by, like, a river that has a fork in it with a tree that looks like a sea kind of thing. And then they go there Put the entire crew's life in danger and they never find Garthy and they spend hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars. And it all was based on some psychic woman in Utah county rolling her eyes in the back of her head and saying that she knew where Garthy was.

John Dehlin [01:38:47] Like, did donors, Did Sean Reyes know that that's how. That's the intelligence that was the foundation of these jumps. Did donors know that when they went on these jumps, they were using intelligence gained by a psychic that was claiming to speak to Book of Mormon. Fictitious, I'll add, fictitious Book of Mormon prophet Nephi.

John Dehlin [01:39:12] So that's egregiously irresponsible. And again, Tim Mutsos confirms the claim that, that Jimmy Rex also made, which is that multiple marriages have been destroyed and broken up. I think that's important. All right, let's keep, let's keep rolling.

Guest [01:39:29] Eric.

John Dehlin [01:39:29] Eric Mutsos.

Guest 5 [01:39:31] It's hard for me to read some of these comments, right? But I get some of these questions. So I wanted to address a lot of these questions, all right. Because when I first heard this, so that I'm just going to try to talk openly about this, okay. When I first saw this with, with the church, the Church of Jesus Christ, Latter Day Saints and the response, and to be honest, I'm just going to be honest, I was upset. I was upset, upset. This is, this is. I didn't understand. It didn't make any sense. I thought it was political, right? And so me, I, it was very frustrating to me because it's like, this looks like a.

Guest 5 [01:40:10] Somebody like within our church is, you know, a political hit job. I'm just, I'm just giving you my honest feel about this stuff. That's what I was thinking. So then I'm now kind of. Of defending him, right? I got a couple messages from his guys, like, hey, here's the presser. So I'm sending this stuff out defending him, right?

Guest 5 [01:40:36] I did a live video about it. I took it down. I don't remember exactly what I said, but I'm just, I'm trying to piece all this stuff together. And then I got a message from somebody. I don't want to go too far into detail, but I talked to this first person and.

Guest 5 [01:40:58] This person said I'm one of them. And I know this isn't going to make sense for a lot of you guys. It's not going to make sense. But all I can say is that when you know, you know, and this isn't. Has anything to do with my, my police background and my Interview. It has nothing to do with that. It's like when you know, you know.

Guest [01:41:20] And.

Guest 5 [01:41:22] And I knew right then, but I wanted to get details, so I. I asked a lot of questions. I asked a lot of questions.

John Dehlin [01:41:27] I'm going to just call a little bit of BS there. Emotions aren't truth. Emotions can lie to you all the time. So while, again, I believe that we should all start by believing victims, and sometimes, you know, you can learn things from people's emotion and body language. This idea of when you know, you know is. Is wrong. It's flawed. People manipulate others all the time. Most sexual predators, most pedophiles and child abusers are trusted members of families, you know, trusted friends and family members. So the. The people most likely to abuse others are.

Guest 5 [01:42:13] Are.

John Dehlin [01:42:14] Are experts at manipulation. And so you can't trust emotion. You don't know just by. By emotion. People can be very, very convincing and compelling and be totally lying 100%. And so the way you know is with evidence. That's the way you really know. You don't know when you know, you know, based on emotion. But I am super interested in hearing what the victims told him, or at least one of the victims. So let's play it.

Guest 5 [01:42:47] I made my. And I got a lot more details because, you know, when I did my first couple posts, my first couple posts were. It was vague, right? There was a lot of, like, people like, hey, there's got to be more than this. You just heard one person. Now you're coming out. This is. This is a total hijab. And. And it was like, you guys, this is not.

Guest 5 [01:43:07] This is not a Kavanaugh moment. Like, this. This is. These are people. These are operatives. Does that make sense? These. These. These women were operatives. These aren't just like, these random tips. And. And so then I. I heard more testimony the next day and more testimony. And.

Guest 5 [01:43:36] And I'm. And so now I have an opinion. Now a lot of people are saying, like, they're saying things like, how dare you? How dare you do this? Like, how dare you come out. Like, you can't be doing. You're not the judge. You're not the jury. Have you guys seen those comments? You're not the judge. You're not the jury, so why are you. Are you the executioner? You should be doing this. And it's like, you guys don't understand what he's doing. I believe he knew this was coming.

Guest 5 [01:44:04] He knew this was coming. This is the exact reason why. This was the exact reason why he did this whole Senate Stuff because he knew this stuff was going down.

Guest [01:44:15] And.

Guest 5 [01:44:16] And so now, I mean, it's. It's. It's freaking brilliant. And so. And I do have a message for Tim at the very end. I do have a message for Tim at the very end because. And. And for people that want to now, you know, I have a message at the very end.

Guest 5 [01:44:39] So what I'm trying to say is that I. He's trying to play it both ways. So everyone's like, you can't do this in the court of public opinion. He's the one that's doing it in the court of public opinion.

Guest 5 [01:44:51] He's the one that's doing it. He's the one that's using everybody around the world right now. Literally, that movie is going around the world. I think it's like, number one right now in, like, Brazil or something. So he's doing this in the court of public opinion and knows dang well that there's a lot of moving parts, that these stories can't be told right now, or at least aren't going to be told right now.

Guest 5 [01:45:21] And so this isn't about. People are like, oh, you can't judge. I am not judging this man to heaven or hell. I am not the final judge. We are all sinners. It doesn't matter who you are. It doesn't matter if you're on the left. It doesn't matter if you're on the right. It doesn't matter who you are. We are all sinners. And that's what I was trying to convey to Tim at the very beginning. I. If you missed what I said at the very beginning, my very first post, let's see here, it says, we learn. I said, we learn from Greek tragic heroes, from the story of Macbeth, and from the collective.

John Dehlin [01:46:06] I'm going to go ahead and pause there for a second. A couple things I want to respond to. I do want to acknowledge the point that he makes that we're all sinners. I don't like the term sin, but I will just say we all make mistakes. I will acknowledge I've made mistakes.

John Dehlin [01:46:23] And. Yeah, so I don't think the issue is whether we're all sinners or whether we all make mistakes. I think people, you know, should be honest and they should be moral and ethical and faithful. But I think. I think in this case, I think sexual harassment's illegal. And, you know, sexual abuse is illegal, and spiritual manipulation is unethical. So, you know what the. To me, the most critical point here is that is the legal one. And The. And the morally ethical one. So, And. And the issue of accountability.

John Dehlin [01:47:11] People should be honest and people should take responsibility when they've made mistakes, and people should do their best to make those things right. And. Yeah, so I think I'm really excited for the legal process to. To proceed now. It probably makes sense that Tim Ballard is. Would likely settle with these victims. You know, he's got. He likely because of the movie Sound of Freedom and all the money that these nonprofits and for profits have raised. There's a decent chance he has a huge shell, you know, a huge war chest of millions of dollars that he can now use to.

John Dehlin [01:47:55] To settle with these victims. And usually if he settles with the victims, there'll be a confidentiality agreement, number one, There'll be no discovery, there'll be no evidence presented publicly, there'll be no trial. And. And the witnesses will be given gag orders. And, you know, to me, that's. That's. That's great for victims receiving compensation. It's bad for the public record because large cash settlements don't allow the public to kind of know what really happened, and donors deserve to know the truth. So that's why I'm a firm believer in the legal process, because I believe that through the legal process, when accusations are made, evidence can be provided, evidence can eventually can be made public, and, and then people can know.

John Dehlin [01:48:52] And that's why I'm just person personally, I tend to be just against those types of settlements and silence. I think just generally speaking, truth and evidence is always. I take comfort in evidence. I can't. I take comfort in truth. And I don't like things being hidden or being secret.

Tim Ballard [01:49:16] It.

John Dehlin [01:49:16] Or people being paid to keep quiet. And yeah, that behavior of Tim, silencing people, asking them to. To delete, destroy evidence, and to sign confidentiality agreements for his protection to keep truth from coming out is a problem. All right, really quickly, I want to share just briefly. His wife Catherine was interviewed recently on, I believe, the Ron Arquette show. And I believe she was asked about her support for Tim Ballard and what she knew and what she thought about the allegations. So I'm going to go ahead and just play that clip really briefly. The allegations about the women that, you know. Were you aware that women were going with Tim on these missions?

Catherine Ballard Addresses the Allegations

▶ Video Clip 9

Video Clip 9 [01:50:10] I am very aware of the couple's ruse. I know. Is that a new word?

Video Clip 9 [01:50:17] It may be.

Video Clip 9 [01:50:18] Okay, okay, let me explain.

Video Clip 9 [01:50:19] Yeah, explain it.

Video Clip 9 [01:50:21] When you go undercover, if you are a single male walking into a strip club or that kind of environment, there are lots of Women around that expect certain behavior by a single male. And Tim never wanted to engage in anything like that. And so he developed what he called the couples ruse. I want to be careful. How young is your listening audience?

Video Clip 9 [01:50:52] It's an older audience.

Video Clip 9 [01:50:53] We don't have children listening.

Video Clip 9 [01:50:54] Okay, well, I. If I.

Video Clip 9 [01:50:55] And mom and dad, if you're in the car with your child right now, you may want to turn it down for a second, but go ahead and explain what he means by that.

Video Clip 9 [01:51:03] So he developed a couple's ruse. They did training on this. They never did this without training. First. The idea is, if Tim walks in with a female who's posing as his wife or his girlfriend or whatever, then they can pretend to be in the party scene. But when adult woman, or sometimes even a younger child is. Is pressed upon them, she can swat him away or her away and say, no, no, no. That's for later. This is my man. No touchy right now. And it was just to play the role of. We're setting up something that we. This is so. This is so awful. But it's an undercover world.

Video Clip 9 [01:51:49] We're setting up something that we both enjoy, but it's not right now. And this is my man. It was used to protect the men from having to engage in anything that would be compromising with all these women and children are trafficking victims, and that was to. So the couple's ruse is to protect that.

Video Clip 9 [01:52:12] Okay.

Video Clip 9 [01:52:13] The women would know this. That this was going to be taking place.

Video Clip 9 [01:52:16] Correct.

Video Clip 9 [01:52:16] Who were working with him on these missions? They knew this ahead of time.

Video Clip 9 [01:52:19] There was always training, always training.

Video Clip 9 [01:52:22] Could they have seen this differently than maybe what Tim had seen? And saying, hey, this may have gone too far.

Video Clip 9 [01:52:29] Definitely. I can't speak to what they individually would perceive. I would never want to do it. I could never do what Tim does. I could never do what these women do. I would never want to do that. And I can't speak to. To their. I only have met a couple of them, actually, but I can't speak to what they would think or what they would expect. I'm grateful for the men and women that are willing to go into these dark places and rescue children. I don't know how they do it. It's dark.

Tim Ballard [01:53:06] Catherine, did the women.

John Dehlin [01:53:07] The women who were involved in this, were they employees of Operation Underground Railroad? And did they volunteer to do this because, like Tim, they wanted to save these children?

Guest 3 [01:53:19] Well, to the. To the best of my knowledge, and maybe. Maybe since I don't know the exact answer, maybe I'm not qualified to Speak to this. I think it was a mixed as far as who was an employee and who was contract and they knew what they were doing because there was training. I came one day at the end of one of the trainings when they were talking about how to pull this off. And not everybody made it through training. There were a couple times when Tim was propositioned during a training, like, hey, here's my hotel card. And Tim would call his assistants and say, they're out. It's a very. It's a very confusing, dark world.

Guest [01:54:15] And ugly.

Guest 3 [01:54:16] And ugly. And I don't. Again, I don't know how. I don't know how they do it. I'm grateful that all these children, thousands of children have been saved. Thousands of perpetrators have been arrested. The. The method and the means is tough to look at.

John Dehlin [01:54:35] I've got to take a quick break, and then we'll have just a few minutes. All right, so. So that's Tim Ballard's wife, Catherine, saying she knew about the couple's ruse. She supported the couple's ruse. There was training on the couple's ruse that she could ever do the couple's ruse, but she knew all about it.

Excommunication Reports and Church Connections

John Dehlin [01:54:52] I just have to say, when I listened to Katherine Ballard, I got Emma Smith vibes. Those of you who know about Joseph Smith's polygamy will know that Emma was a victim in the sense that Joseph Smith literally. That she opposed Joseph's polygamy, but then he threatened her literally with her life, saying that God would destroy Emma if she didn't allow Joseph Smith to practice polygamy. That's in doctrine and Covenants 132. But we also know that later on, Emma denies that the polygamy ever happened.

John Dehlin [01:55:27] And, you know, many people wonder how much of Emma, how much of it was her being a victim, how much was she accomplice, how much did she know? I get very similar vibes with Katherine Ballard. It's clear that she is a victim to some degree of potentially allegedly. If the allegations are true, then Katherine Ballard is a victim of Tim's manipulations.

John Dehlin [01:55:53] But she also knows what's going on. You know, I. I will also add that, you know, Nuance Ho, my friend, my dear friend, Kara Burrell, she's been doing some great reporting on this. I'm just going to read some things that she wrote me.

John Dehlin [01:56:10] Kara. Nuance Ho writes. I hope you mentioned a couple things. I got a source that Janet, this is the. The psychic is a major co conspirator in grooming these women. Just like Jeffrey Epstein. And Ghislaine Maxwell. So, so it sounds like this Janet person, the psychic, may have really been spiritually manipulating people.

John Dehlin [01:56:35] And then, and then Kara also wants to say that Operation Underground Railroads board and Ted Ballard's family need to be called out for not speaking out. So this is something that applies to Katherine Ballard as well as anyone else in Tim's family or his friend circle that know about the alleg allegations. Abuse of abuse, along with our. How long has our and Tim Ballard's friends and family known about the allegations of abuse? Did they have a responsibility to come out and speak out and to gather the evidence and to hear it, you know, and how complicit were they in all of this happening? So I want to thank Carabarell for her reporting.

John Dehlin [01:57:18] I do want to report some late breaking. This is very, very serious late breaking news. If true. I cannot say that I've confirmed that this is true, but I can say that I trust my source. I just received word that Tim Ballard has been excommunicated by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints or the Mormon Church. I cannot confirm if it's true. So at this point, it's a tip, it's an allegation, but it comes from a very, very trusted.

John Dehlin [01:57:50] It comes from a name that pretty much all of you would know. I'll just read the tip. I asked him what the source was for the evidence that Tim Ballard was excommunicated. He writes it's a good source, but I can't be explicit. I wish I could be. I think the church is set to announce it, but it's a very close confident that the excommunication happened on Monday, but the letter was delivered last night around 9:45. So the reporting is that Tim Ballard had a disciplinary council on Monday, September 25, and that the letter was delivered last night, September 27, around 9:45pm so that's a pretty specific intelligence.

John Dehlin [01:58:44] So I'm not, I am not going to mention who gave me this information, but it, you know, that's true when I would, when I. A disciplinary council was held for me for having this podcast and refusing to take the podcast down. That was literally my offense. I was not given a verdict that night. Instead, I had to wait till the day after or two days after for the verdict. So this is all sounding very credible and so far my tips have almost been 100% accurate. So you're hearing at first substantive tips and reporting that Tim Ballard is now an excommunicated member, former member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

John Dehlin [01:59:29] Now, the Mormon Church changed the way it describes excommunications. It, it used some euphemism, it injected some euphemistic, euphemistic language into that process. They'll probably announce it as he, he had a council of membership status and he had his membership withdrawn. That's the new way that they're describing excommunication. But it's an excommunication and I refuse to use that dumb language in any other way. So again, how much did Catherine know? When did she know it? How much did the our board know? When did they know it?

John Dehlin [02:00:12] How much has this been withheld and for how long have the victims been compensated? I think that's an important question to ask by our Were they paid to stay silent? Were they not paid? I think these are all important questions that need to be answered. I'm super curious to see if Tim Ballard indeed was excommunicated. Is he still going to announce his Senate run? I was told that Jesus told Tim Ballard that he should announce his senate running on December 10th.

John Dehlin [02:00:47] And now I'm curious whether he's still going to run for Senate and whether he's still going to announce on October 10th because a very credible inside source told me me that Jesus told him to announce his senate run on October 10th. So we will see whether that happens or not. I'm going to play a couple more quick clips or maybe one more, one more clip. The clip that I'm going to play now is a recent TikTok clip of what happened when Tim was asked about all these investigations. Let's just go ahead and see what his, his, his reaction was.

John Dehlin [02:01:27] And by the way, this is from the amazing Davis County Carl's Head junior Carly the, the post Mormon social media influencer Carly, who does really good work. This is, this is her channel. So I'll just go ahead and play Tim's reaction.

▶ Video Clip 10

Video Clip 10 [02:01:46] Attorney's office started investigating Tim Ballard and his nonprofit profit in 2020.

Video Clip 10 [02:01:51] And really quickly I'm going to, I'm going to note that this is Adam Herbitz of Fox 13 News, Utah. He's doing a great job reporting on this, so I just want to give him a shout out.

Video Clip 10 [02:02:04] At least a portion of that investigation has concluded, but nobody really feels closure because there is so much uncertainty surrounding what the focus of that investigation really was. And even though the article from Vice gives us a small snapshot talking about Tim Ballard receiving psychic readings, communicating with the prophet Nephi and apparently a soured relationship with the Church of Jesus, Christ of Latter Day Saints. This all really started with questions about money. In 2020, prosecutor Troy Rawlings posted a series of messages on his personal Instagram account. Quote, please beware of any individual entity or organization who solicits your money and may be claiming credit for work to protect children that is actually done by our task force. The messages did not name our directly. Has our ever over exaggerated what it's accomplished?

Video Clip 10 [02:03:02] No, no. I mean it's, you know, it's funny when we give our. Our numbers were actually pretty conservative.

Video Clip 10 [02:03:12] Is our still under investigation?

Video Clip 10 [02:03:15] You know, I, I focus on rescuing kids and I have a team that would answer those questions. Yeah, unbelievable. I'm out of here. You get you guys started a little easy.

Video Clip 10 [02:03:28] Within minutes after that question, he got angry and walked out of the interview. For years, his team told people there was no criminal investigation, which is not true. The nonprofit's chief legal officer says she has no explanation. What was the basis of the investigation?

Video Clip 10 [02:03:46] You'd have to ask the Davis County Attorney's office.

Video Clip 10 [02:03:49] Are you able to explain why our was telling people that there was not an investigation when in fact there was?

Video Clip 10 [02:03:56] I don't have any information on that.

Video Clip 10 [02:03:58] Do you feel that this is now fully behind you?

Video Clip 10 [02:04:00] I certainly hope so.

Video Clip 10 [02:04:01] I mean we have to take the

Video Clip 10 [02:04:03] Davis county attorney at his word.

Video Clip 10 [02:04:05] Usually completed investigations are a matter of public record, but when we asked for a copy, prosecutors would not give up the case file. We also found Operation Underground Railroad wrote a letter asking for those records to remain private in part because of federal grand jury material. We believe at least some of these records should be public. We're in the process of filing appeals so that you know what this case is really about, especially now that a member of the quorum of the 12 is citing betrayal.

John Dehlin [02:04:38] All right, so again, shout out to Adam Herberts. I think that's how you pronounce his name for that important reporting. And to Carly who, who does great stuff on TikTok under the title Carl's Head Jr. I do want to just as a final thing, I'm going to make a couple read a. Read a few of your comments that I think are really relevant.

John Dehlin [02:05:05] Before I do, however, I do want to just let you all know of one final, you know, set of info. Again, Adam Herbert's writes on Twitter, Tim Ballard lied to donors. According to former our rescue employees, we are uploading 75 pages of records, which makes up less than 0.01% of the full criminal case file marked as confidential communication under seal by Davis County.

John Dehlin [02:05:37] And if you look at the article that I think we're going to have to cover on a different episode. There's a Fox 13 news article. I'll share this in the comments. But basically it's an article that is entitled Full Documents. Tim Ballard Lied to Donors According to X Our employees.

John Dehlin [02:06:03] And it's Fox 13 News. And, and Adam Herbert's just reporting on information that he's gathered. All right, before we end today's episode, I do want to read some comments. Adam Farr asks Sean Reyes is is happy to sit out of the Senate race. Now, several of you are asking what did Sean Reyes know? When did he know it? Many people are asking did Sean Reyes and g did Sean Reyes, Utah Attorney General Sean Reyes, did he engage in the couple's ruse? Did he also have, you know, couples massages with undercover women? Did he shower or sleep in bed with with women?

John Dehlin [02:06:46] We don't know. That's a question. But, but just most importantly, how long has he known about allegations of sexual misconduct? If so, how long has he known about it? Did he investigate it? Other people want to know what Tim, what Sean Reyes's role was in this federal investigation. Did he work behind the scenes to get the federal investigation scuttled? I know that this article by Adam Herberts addresses that issue. We're going to cover that later because I was scamming, scanning through the article and it talked about it.

John Dehlin [02:07:24] So that's important. Let's see a couple other comments. Mary E. Makes an important comment. Make sure you all hit the like like button on this video. Help it get boosted so that people learn the truth. It only has 545 likes. We've got 2,300 people on this episode and it would be amazing if people would like it share it. Super Chat donations are always welcome. We use that to pay our staff and to keep the lights on. And I just want to remind you just because this is if you really want to make a difference. We believe Mormon Stories is a way for you to make a difference.

John Dehlin [02:08:06] If you see our YouTube channel, we have now 193,000 subscribers and we only need 7,000 more to reach the 200,000 mark. The reason why that's important is because the more subscribers we have, the more people get, the more YouTube shares the videos with others. But also more people are willing to come on the podcast. The larger our subscriber base is. So please take the time to subscribe to the Mormon Stories podcast YouTube channel also on Facebook, Instagram and TikTok. And then I also just want to Gerardo asked me to do this. The main way that we receive Money as a 501c3 nonprofit is through the donate button at the top right, so you can see it there.

John Dehlin [02:08:54] The donate button. Click on the donate button. Become a monthly donor, and that's the way that you can financially support the Open Stories foundation and keep the lights on. We rely on your donations and we have donors canceling their donations literally every month. They fall on financial hard times. They lose interest, they move on. They want to support other worthy causes.

John Dehlin [02:09:21] We support all of that. But we do need new recurring donors to step up to support the cause. Right now, we've got Julia doing time codes and show notes. She creates the shorts. Maven does. She moderates the comments. She does post production. Gerardo does.

John Dehlin [02:09:42] Producing a podcast. He does the thumbnails. He co hosts. Sometimes Julia co hosts. So, you know, please support us. I'm going to share one more time this photo of Tim Ballard that now we know is legitimate. This is a photo of Tim Ballard in his underwear with tattoos.

John Dehlin [02:10:01] Again, Tim Ballard goes on the Adam Carolis show and explains why he's got the tattoos. But now Tim needs to explain why he was excommunicated. The Mormon Church excommunicated Tim Ballard allegedly, reportedly. And if it's true that the Mormon Church excommunicated him, then we would want to know what sins he was accused of committing, whether he denied the sins, whether he admitted the sins, what the sins were alleged, etc. Etc. Again, I want to thank Mormonish podcast and Landon and Rebecca for the great work that they do.

John Dehlin [02:10:42] A couple other quick things. Let's see. Someone writes, Sean Reyes is up to this in his greedy eyeballs. I'm wondering where Brandon is involved in this train wreck. Where Sean goes, Brandon is not far behind. I don't know who they're talking about with Brandon.

John Dehlin [02:11:02] Again, Nuance Ho is claiming that Janet Rusan is a major co conspirator. Like the Jeffrey Epstein thing. I've already read that. All right, so. Oh, someone's saying family grows. Is saying, John, please reach out to me about Eric Mutsos. I have info I'd like to share. He is also problematic. I don't want to defame anyone. I don't want to definitely don't want to spread false information.

John Dehlin [02:11:32] So. So, you know, let me know why you guys feel like Eric is problematic. Wendy writes, I highly doubt his Tim Ballard's wife knew any of this ruse stuff. Apparently you're wrong, Wendy. Apparently she did, because we just played.

John Dehlin [02:11:50] We just played a Clip Rebecca writes John, the massages were done naked. And I wonder whether Rebecca has personal information about this or whether she's speculating. I would like to know whether those, those massages that Tim Ballard did, I just have to say, like one really important question that needs to be asked that I think we've covered today is how effective was the couple's ruse?

Closing Analysis and Unanswered Questions

John Dehlin [02:12:15] Is it true that there was no better way to catch bad guys than to have Tim Ballard take by his, by his words, hot women to, you know, beach locations to get couples massages, to shower and to apparently reportedly groom them with certain sorts of sexual acts so that they could play a married couple for several days? Is that the most effective way to catch bad guys or is the most effective way to work with local law enforcement and to let the professionals do the job?

John Dehlin [02:12:55] Again, once we pair these highly apparently sexualized sketchy behaviors with Jimmy Rex's report that very rarely did they ever find traffic children and in fact by Jimmy Rex's own reporting, several times they just went home having never found any trafficked children. You just have to wonder whether these were effective operations or whether it was a ruse for Tim Ballard to kind of some call it like cosplay for them to sort of like feel like they were helping children pretend that they were Navy seal, you know, special ops people, but really just making a lot of money, having a lot of fun and in effect bilking a lot of sincere donors and not really rescuing kids?

John Dehlin [02:13:50] You know, I think those are questions that are that we should all be asking. I want to thank two Travelers for the Super Chat donation. Two Travelers writes thanks to Mormon stories. Lynn Packer and Vice keep reporting on this topic. Absolutely. I agree. None of this would be happening probably without the reporting of Lynn Packer. Check out his channel lynn Packer on YouTube and also Tim Marshman and Amy and Anna on on Vice News. Reporters have done an amazing job. They have some great tick tock channels. Check them out. But also check out Vice News. I'm guessing that more Vice News articles are going to be coming out in, in the next few days and weeks.

John Dehlin [02:14:35] All right, well I, we've done our best today to cover the, the press conference. We we have it now formally in, in, in the public arena that several alleged reported victims of Tim Ballard have hired an attorney and they are, they are going to, they are alleging of Tim Ballard's sexual harassment, spiritual manipulation, grooming and sexual misconduct.

John Dehlin [02:15:09] I will share on the screen the email address that I was able to write down. I don't know if this is accurate, but it's the one that I grabbed. Our info llutahlaw.com that's the email address that's been given if you've been a victim of Tim Ballard.

John Dehlin [02:15:31] If you've been a victim of Tim Ballard's sexual harassment, spiritual manipulation, grooming or sexual misconduct, please email our infoallutahlaw.com if you want to be a part of this lawsuit against Tim Ballard. If any of you have stories that you want to share on Mormon Stories podcast about doing jumps with Tim Ballard, about your knowledge of sketchy operations with Tim Ballard, please email me@mormonstoriesmail.com I really, I really do want to keep covering the story. Let me thank Lead with Love for their super chat. And she writes living in alternative cosplay and perverted fantasy. I just want to just maybe end by clarifying why I'm covering this story.

John Dehlin [02:16:21] I'm covering this story for a few reasons. Number one, I believe it has spiritual and religious, religious foundations. I believe that once you are taught to believe in, in supernatural things, once you're taught to devalue evidence, once you are groomed by a religion to be a conspiracy minded thinker, you are going to be more prone to fraud and manipulation. And I just, you just wouldn't believe how many very wealthy, powerful, credible, educated people have been allegedly swindled by Tim Ballard and Operation Underground Railroad. And I believe that it is likely that the Mormon Church and the way that they groom people to be susceptible not just contributes to Utah being one of the top fraud states in the country, but specifically to the gullibility that led to the support, support of Tim Ballard and Operation Underground Railroad.

John Dehlin [02:17:26] Secondly, I believe that, I believe that the Mormon Church was complicit in building up Tim Ballard. So M. Russell Ballard mentioning Tim Ballard in talks Deseret News sharing over 200 articles promoting Tim Ballard Deseret book selling Tim Ballard's books apparently reportedly M. Russell Ballard giving Tim Ballard his personal endorsement and allegedly calling wealthy donors telling them to donate to Tim Ballard. Nuance Ho and others have done some reporting on that. I've had people tell me that M. Russell Ballard called wealthy people and asked them to donate to Tim Ballard and Operation Underground Railroad and you know, and whatever sketchy business deals that happen behind the scenes and you know, all of that leads to and, and Sean Reyes who's a Mormon Attorney general throwing his full support.

John Dehlin [02:18:27] You know, this, this was something that the Mormon Church promoted, empowered, supported and fundraised for and, and advertised. So this is a scandal of the Mormon church's making. And, and that's particularly problematic because the Mormon Church has its own sexual abuse problem. The Mormon Church is reported to have been responsible for harboring tens of thousands of pedophiles and child abusers. Whether it's Boy Scout leaders or bishops or bishopric members or stake presidents.

John Dehlin [02:19:10] We know that tens if not hundreds of thousands of children have been molested and abused within a Mormon context over the past 50 years and that it's been covered up by the church. And so, you know, I think about this all the time. Tim Ballard, Sean Reyes. If you want to stop child abuse, go to your local Mormon ward, go to your local Mormon stake. That's where the sexual abuse of children is happening and being covered up. If you want to do a military operation, Tim Ballard and Sean Reyes, go to Curtin McConkey and seize the hard drives of all the attorneys at Curtin McConkie that have been complicit in covering up Mormon Church based sexual abuse in discourt, in silencing and paying off abuse victims, in encouraging abuse victims and their families from the Mormon Church to not report the abuse to police, to not file charges.

John Dehlin [02:20:07] Those are the paramilitary operations. If you're gonna have them, that should happen, but don't do that because it's illegal. But maybe someone should work with the FBI to seize the hard drives of Curtin McConkey Law Firm because that's where the sexual abuse is happening in rampant levels by report.

John Dehlin [02:20:31] And there's a lot of evidence that shows that. So reportedly and allegedly it's the Mormon Church that is the harbor of pedophiles and sexual abusers. And so this whole Tim Ballard operation, Underground Railroad conveniently serves the Mormon Church as a way to redirect attention away from the abuse that's happening within the walls of your local Mormon Church, redirect it to overseas, to these fake interventions that, that apparently aren't yielding any, any real significant saving of children.

John Dehlin [02:21:11] So that's, those are some of the main reasons that I'm covering this story. And then there's the element of Tim Ballard using a psychic to channel Nephi. That's, you know, all of these Operation Underground Railroad people are tied in with the Jody Hildebrandts of the world, of the preppers, of the Mormon world, of the millennialists and the Denver snuffers of the Mormon world and of the, and, and of the Tim Ballard. Sorry, of the, of the Chad Dabel and Lori Valo crowd. And so this all the sort of neo fundamentalism that the Mormon Church is refusing to clamp down on is becoming a major problem and is going to be an even bigger problem if the Mormon Church wants to.

John Dehlin [02:21:58] The Tim Ballard of the world, the Lori Vallows and Chad Daybells of the world, the Jody Hildebrandt of the world, they need to clamp down on neo fundamentalism within Mormonism. But they've been paying all their attention. Excommunicating truthful historians, excommunicating truthful fact sharing podcasters, Jeremy Runnels, Bill Real.

John Dehlin [02:22:24] They've been excommunicating Sam Young, who is fighting to protect children. Why in the world would the Mormon Church excommunicate Sam Young, who was fighting to protect children while harboring and protecting actual child abusers and pedophiles and using their billions of dollars to fund a law firm that was silencing legitimate victims and covering up for and protecting actual pedophiles and abusers? That makes no sense. But we understand why the Mormon Church excommunicated Sam Young because he was shining a spotlight on the Mormon Church's protection of pedophiles and child abusers and again, quieting victims. So that's a big, huge problem that we need to talk more about.

John Dehlin [02:23:14] And then again, the Mormon Church has been so vigilant at liberal historians and people who question the Mormon Church's truth claims, its historical claims, who tell factual history. That's where the Mormon Church's focus has been on silencing and excommunicating people. And it's given it basically a virtual pass to all the preppers, the neo fundamentalists and all of those types. So that's why I'm covering this story. The Mormon Church needs to clean house. It's been ignoring some of the most important people and I think that's important. A couple other quick super chats coming in. DOSA Manus writes that Marisol Nichols is a Scientologist.

John Dehlin [02:24:04] That that is news to me. If it's true that Marisol Nichols is a Scientologist, that's super odd. Or maybe on brand and that Tim Ballard is working with the Scientologist. So that's weird. I would love some confirmation about that. Kimberly writes, let's save the children in our wards and neighbors. Let's root out the abuse within. This is such an important point, John. Thank you Kimberly for sharing the super chat. It keeps us going. Thanks for your comment.

John Dehlin [02:24:35] Marlene Dalton writes, I'm not Mormon. However, I learned from your podcast and appreciate and enjoy your fair and respectful methods of broadcasting. Thank you, Marlene. We try again. I'M not perfect. I make mistakes. I've made mistakes in the nonprofit, but I'm doing my best to learn from them and to be ethical, to fix the mistakes and to be accountable. And I'm trying to be as professional as I can on these episodes. And then our long more able gave a super chat donation as well. Okay. Well, so I, you know, that's why I, that's why I'm covering the Tim Ballard Operation Underground Railroad. I hope you've enjoyed today's reporting.

Final Thoughts and Breaking News on Excommunication

John Dehlin [02:25:17] We're going to keep reporting on this. We hope that what it leads to is, is, is a crackdown on neo fundamentalists and opening up at the Mormon Church about abuse, changing in the church's methods so that that bishops and church leaders no longer sit alone behind closed doors with 12 and 13 year old boys and girls asking them if they masturbate, where they touch themselves, et cetera. I apologize for being so frank, but the Mormon Church needs to change its policies.

John Dehlin [02:25:52] My desire is not to destroy the Mormon Church or take it down. It's to make the Mormon Church healthier for its members and then to support people, people who decide that they need to leave the church. We want to provide them with support as well.

John Dehlin [02:26:09] All right. I do want to end with the breaking news that it's been reported to me by a super credible source by a name. You would all know that Tim Ballard sat in a disciplinary council Monday night, which would be September 25th, and that last night, the evening of September 27th, he, he received notice that he's been excommunicated for the Mormon Church. I also just will share one more time the the photo that, that Tim Ballard has now acknowledged is accurate. It's the underwear photo where Tim Ballard is posing in his underwear with a bunch of tattoos on a bed.

John Dehlin [02:26:52] And again, Tim Ballard claims that those are henna tattoos, which they probably are, and that he needed to have those tattoos made, you know, to protect the children. Anything for the children, according to Tim Ballard. But, but now we know that photo is not fake. It is. It is real. Tim has acknowledged it and he's claiming he had to be tatted up so that he could protect the children.

John Dehlin [02:27:19] Even though he had a wife, a fake wife with him so that he wouldn't have to do inappropriate things. Somehow he still needed to be tatted up above his pelvic area, even though in the couple's ruse, the wife was supposed to keep him from having to do that sort of stuff. Anyway, thanks for joining us today. Thanks to Gerardo and Diana and all my private sources that I can't share their names of who are providing me intel. We will continue to report on this story in the days, weeks and months ahead. We appreciate your support. Please like this episode. Please subscribe to YouTube, help us get to 200,000 members.

John Dehlin [02:28:02] Please donate at MormonStoriesMail.com, become a monthly donor and I will keep giving you my promise that we will do our best to run an ethical nonprofit, to be transparent in our finances, to not have a zero tolerance for sexual harassment or abuse of any kind and and to be evidence based so that if there are ever allegations made, we will pursue them legally and we will provide the evidence for our side.

John Dehlin [02:28:35] Another comment just come in through came in through Super Chat. Alex Shaw writes, John, I think it's important to also point out that President Nelson won't be at conference per his own social media as of just an hour or so ago. Not sure if you mentioned it, but wanted it mentioned. Thank you, Alex Shaw, for that Super Chat. Super Chat is a way for you to make sure that your comment gets read in these episodes because there's so many. That's really good breaking news. I wonder if M. Russell Ballard is going to be a general conference. I wonder if he's going to talk. I wonder what he's going to talk on.

John Dehlin [02:29:05] And I wonder if any of this stuff is going to be addressed at general conference, which is coming up soon, soon. So that's going to be, you know, pass the popcorn for that. That's going to be fascinating as well. Again, is Sean Reyes going to denounce Tim Ballard? How much of an accomplice was Sean Reyes in the scuttling of the federal investigation or in hiding Tim Ballard's bad behavior? Is Glenn Beck going to denounce Tim Ballard?

John Dehlin [02:29:31] You know, is Tim Ballard still going to run for Senate? Is Tim Ballard going to start a Mormon civil war where he gets all his supporters to either attack the church or to believe that the church has moles and the church has spies and the church has, you know, people inside who have infiltrated it and are doing bad things. You know, it's going to get really interesting over the next few weeks and months, potentially depending on whether Tim Ballard just disappears and and goes away or whether he decides to fight the church and split the church membership against the church. It's going to get interesting.

John Dehlin [02:30:08] Please send me your tips. Email me@mormonstoriesmail.com thank you for your support. Please let me know if you want to come on Mormon Stories podcast if you've got an important story to tell. Most importantly, no. Again, I'm saying this again. Everything on the show is allegations until it's proven. I don't claim to know anything about what Tim Ballard actually did or didn't do, what Sean Reyes did or didn't do.

John Dehlin [02:30:34] These are just reports that are coming to me, and I'm sharing them and all with the disclaimers, be good to each other, be kind to each other, and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care, everybody.

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