Welcome and Guest Introduction

John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Deland. It's February 5th, 2025, and I'm so excited for today's interview. Today we're gonna be covering several topics that are continually requested. Number one is never Mormons. So, you know, I've often asked, I want some never Mormons. Cause half of the Mormon Stories audience has never been Mormon.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:27] So.

John Dehlin [00:00:27] So I've often asked, why don't we have never Mormons come on Mormon Stories and talk about why they listen to Mormon Stories? So we have a never Mormon on Mormon Stories today. She was raised in the Assemblies of God tradition. And the uber theme for today is how did following and learning about Mormonism and even specifically Mormon Stories podcast cause Assemblies of God, slash, let's just say evangelical. Evangelical or charismatic. What's the other word?

Anna Schreyer [00:01:02] Pentecostal.

John Dehlin [00:01:03] Pentecostal. What would cause a Pentecostal Evangelical Christian to both be interested in Mormonism and Mormon Stories podcast, but also to have that lead to her own faith transition? So we're gonna be talking about that. And we're also gonna be talking about what it's like to be raised in Utah as a Never Mormon and as an Evangelical Christian, Pentecostal, Assemblies of God, Christian. Those are a couple of the major themes today. And so joining us, you know, strap in for an amazing, epic Mormon Stories interview. But also, I'm impressed with how much Anna has been following Mormon Stories and how just how impactful Mormon Stories have. Has been to her life. So we've flown her here from an undisclosed state. I give to all of you, Anna Schreyer. Hey, Anna.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:01] Hey.

Anna Schreyer [00:02:01] Thank you so much. I appreciate that. That was awesome.

John Dehlin [00:02:04] How's that for an intro?

Anna Schreyer [00:02:05] Yeah, that was grandiose. I loved it. Grandiose.

John Dehlin [00:02:09] And of course, as a co host today, we have my favorite human, Margi. Hey, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:15] Hi there.

John Dehlin [00:02:16] Thanks for coming.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:17] Yes, I'm here for it.

John Dehlin [00:02:18] All right. Okay. I don't. Did you know that we've interviewed at least one Pentecostal in Mormon Stories history?

Anna Schreyer [00:02:27] I actually did not know that. That is an episode I've missed.

John Dehlin [00:02:30] He's actually a Pentecostal minister named Chris Thomas who is over a congregation in. Where's the University of Tennessee? It's near you, actually.

Anna Schreyer [00:02:42] Oh, well, Utah is in Knoxville.

John Dehlin [00:02:44] Isn't Knoxville kind of near?

Anna Schreyer [00:02:46] That's pretty close. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:47] Yeah. Okay. So. So anyway, you're our second Pentecostal that I can remember on Mormon Stories.

Anna Schreyer [00:02:56] That's awesome.

John Dehlin [00:02:56] Very cool. Okay. So did I miss anything from the introduction that we're gonna be covering today.

Anna Schreyer [00:03:01] No, we're gonna get into all of it, so that's totally fine. Yep.

John Dehlin [00:03:05] And also, so many of our followers or listeners are Christian, and they're often really upset that so many of the Mormons that we interview end up losing their faith in God and Jesus and the Bible. And I just want to say at the outset, I have no personal interest or motivation to have Christians lose their faith in God or Jesus or the Bible. I'm pro church, pro religion for people for whom it works. Sometimes people think that I'm favoring or trying to destroy faith, and I'm just not. But having said that, so many of my Christian followers and listeners are disturbed by the fact that that's what ends up happening to so many of the people I interview. And so you're an example of at least some of that happening completely outside the Mormon context.

Margi Dehlin [00:03:58] Yeah.

Anna Schreyer [00:03:59] Wasn't your intention whatsoever, and isn't mine either. I'm not in. I'm not trying to get anybody to change their beliefs, but this is just how it unfolded for me. So.

John Dehlin [00:04:10] Yeah. So let's get there. We always like to start with intentions. Do you want to share kind of why you of all people, want to come on Mormon Stories podcast?

Anna Schreyer [00:04:20] Yeah. That's interesting. I know. I've listened for a long time, and a lot of people have said things along the lines of, you know, they hope to bring hope to other people and to share their stories so other people can relate, and that's something that's really beautiful, and I hope that that happens. But in all honesty, this is, for me why I'm doing this. I have struggled with my faith for quite a few years and have never really shared about that. And just within these last, like, year, have I even shared with those closest with me where my faith is at now. So this is me kind of owning my story for the first time.

Margi Dehlin [00:05:06] Yeah.

Anna Schreyer [00:05:07] That's meaningful. Yeah. And as far as, like, what my intentions aren't, I've thought about it a lot, and it's been really difficult for me to parse through my life and decide what's important to share and what isn't. And I've just come to the realization that, like, my life is intertwined, intertwined with a lot of other people, and I want to do my best to protect those people, but at the same time, I think it'll be a disservice to my story to not share in an effort to protect theirs, so particularly my parents. Like, this is in no way Trying to discredit or dishonor their story, but this is just mine. So that's where we're going.

John Dehlin [00:05:54] And just to hit that right on, we're not gonna mention the name of the church, but they're sort of heavily involved in a Utah based assemblies. Is it assemblies or Assemblies?

Anna Schreyer [00:06:03] Assemblies of God, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:04] Church, yes.

Anna Schreyer [00:06:05] Correct. Technically, like an individual church would be called like an assembly of God church, but as a whole, the denomination or fellowship is assemblies. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:15] And so while you'll be talking about your assembly of God experience, everyone should know we're not trying to call out or attack anyone specifically.

Anna Schreyer [00:06:23] No, not at all. And I love the church that I was raised in. I still have a lot of really fond memories and fond feelings towards that congregation and of course my parents. So I'm not interested in taking anybody down or anything like that.

Anna's Background and Pentecostal Upbringing

John Dehlin [00:06:40] Okay. All right, well, if it's okay, normally we just say, where does your Mormon story begin? But you, your story doesn't begin as a Mormon story. Can you give us kind of a primer on assembly of God Pentecostalism, just for those who don't even know what it is?

Anna Schreyer [00:06:58] Yeah. So I'll try to be somewhat brief with it, but I love history and all things that. So. Okay. So Pentecostalism essentially started in the early 1900s. I always believed growing up that it was always a thing like that is what I thought. And then as I got older, I studied. But the Assemblies of God really starts with a guy named Charles Parham.

Anna Schreyer [00:07:25] So he was a faith healer, evangelist and a pastor. And he had started a church in, or, excuse me, a Bible school in Topeka, Kansas. During that Bible school, they are studying the book of Acts. So for like people who may not know the book of Acts, they were studying chapter two, which contextually, Jesus has already died, he's been resurrected, he's ascended. So the believers are gathered in the upper room, they're all praying together.

Anna Schreyer [00:07:57] And suddenly the sound of a mighty rushing wind fills the room. And what appears to be tongues of fire are seen above the believers heads and they begin to speak in other tongues. So as in Topeka, Kansas, these Bible students are studying this. They are trying to decide what is it that is the evidence of being baptized in the Spirit. Because Peter follows up with that event in a pretty long sermon. But to shrink it down, he basically says, this is what's been prophesied. They've been baptized in the Holy Spirit. So these students are talking about it, they're studying, they're praying about it, and they Decide that the initial evidence of being baptized in the Holy Spirit is speaking in tongues.

Anna Schreyer [00:08:49] So all of them gather around a woman at her request. Her name was Agnes Osman. And in 1901, she speaks in tongues for the very first time. There have obviously been other traditions and other, even Christian movements that have spoken in tongues before, but this was the first time that it was kind of grabbed ahold of as like a doctrine or a theology. And Charles Parham runs with this. He starts going and teaching this everywhere. He eventually ends up in Houston, Texas, where he's teaching at another Bible school. And a man named William Seymour, who was a one eyed black man, he was the son of emancipated slaves, he wants to learn from Charles Parham because he's heard of this theology, this doctrine.

Anna Schreyer [00:09:33] And Charles Parham, I have now learned, was a Ku Klux Klan sympathizer and did not allow him to be in the classroom. So he sat outside the classroom listening through the door. But he also grabbed hold of this doctrine. He never spoke in tongues at this point. It wasn't something that he had experienced. But he, through a series of events, ends up in Los Angeles and starts some prayer meetings and somebody. He is teaching this doctrine, even though he himself has not spoken in tongues yet. He starts teaching this doctrine, and people start being filled with the spirit under that belief, and they start speaking in tongues.

Anna Schreyer [00:10:14] It births what is now known as the Azusa Street Revival. So almost all Pentecostal and charismatic denominations can trace their roots to that revival. That event, which was super impactful. It lasted for six years, so from 1906 until 1912. And it was interracial, multicultural, just like a really beautiful gathering of different, you know, people from different walks of life. But he kind of started this. This amazing man named William Seymour started this. This whole movement.

John Dehlin [00:10:54] Which city again was this?

Anna Schreyer [00:10:55] So this was in Los Angeles.

John Dehlin [00:10:56] Okay.

Anna Schreyer [00:10:57] Yeah. So they started in a small house on Bray street, and it outgrew that house and they moved to Azusa Street. So now it's called the Azusa Street Revival.

John Dehlin [00:11:05] Wow. Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:11:06] Yeah.

Anna Schreyer [00:11:06] So this kind of splinters off. There's a bunch of people that pick up this new theology because it was huge. It was a big. People are getting healed. They're crazy, weird, like kind of supernatural happenings are going on.

Anna Schreyer [00:11:21] There's stories of a fire department that was called because they believed that the fire where the prayer meeting was happening, or, excuse me, the building where the prayer meeting was happening was on fire. And the fire department shows up and there's no fire but people swore that they saw flames coming. Just like really intense kind of spiritual things happening. And so lots of people across the United States are now holding onto this doctrine of being filled with the Spirit. And eventually, in 1914, about 300 Pentecostal believers, they gather together in a town in Arkansas, and they decide that they're going to start a fellowship. It wasn't a denomination, Not a denomination.

Anna Schreyer [00:12:07] They start a fellowship of Pentecostal believers, and that is now the Assemblies of God. And where the denomination kind of really. I believe it kind of really gets its, like, claim as a denomination, not a fellowship, is just two years later, they had some arguments amongst different Pentecostals about, like, the Trinity and things like that. And so the Assemblies of God had a council, and they came up with their 16 fundamental truths, which is now basically their creed. And so that's how the Assemblies of God was birthed.

John Dehlin [00:12:41] And then it grew and grew. How did it. I mean, do we want to say how it came to Utah or.

Anna Schreyer [00:12:48] Yeah, it just. It grew in general. So right now, as it stands, they claim about 3 million US members of the Assemblies of God, and then worldwide, they claim over 80 million.

John Dehlin [00:13:03] Yeah, because in Guatemala, it was. Almost every town I was in, there was an Assemblada de Dios in that town more prevalent than Mormonism in at least Guatemala. Yeah.

Anna Schreyer [00:13:13] Yeah. It was, like, the weirdest. I mean, we'll get to this. But in my traveling overseas to see, like, the Little Ag logo, I was like, huh? Because, I mean, I guess I didn't realize it was as, you know, worldwide as it is. But they just. I don't know necessarily how it ended up spreading as far as from state to state, but their headquarters are in Springfield, Missouri. That's where they eventually moved to. And that's actually where I was born. So in Springfield, it is our Salt Lake City is our Mecca. That is.

John Dehlin [00:13:46] But you. So you moved. Oh, we'll get there, actually. I'll ask about your family in a second. So really quickly, for those who want to check out the previous episode, I did. It's with Christopher Thomas, and it's called a Pentecostal Reads the Book of Mormon. And that is actually a book that scholar Christopher Thomas. Christopher Thomas wrote and published, so people could check that out. But his main premise is that the Book of Mormon itself carries a lot of Pentecostal kind of teachings or vibes within it. In other words, he, for whatever reason, read the Book of Mormon and saw a lot of Pentecostalism there.

Similarities Between Pentecostalism and Mormonism

John Dehlin [00:14:32] And if anyone's familiar With Joseph Smith and the Articles of Faith, it starts out as one of the primary articles of faith. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, and in the interpretation of tongues, et cetera. So there's a couple questions from that. Even though I was surprised and just because I forgot, I'm sure Christopher covered this, I was surprised to hear that Assemblies of God Pentecostalism is, from your account, something that originated in the 1900s. Because clearly the strains of Pentecostalism extend at least back into the early 1800s. Or Joseph Smith, number one, wouldn't have wrote that into the Book of Mormon, and number two, wouldn't have listed that as one of the key. What you would associate with Pentecostalism as one of the key Mormon church articles of faith.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:27] Yeah.

Anna Schreyer [00:15:28] So it's interesting because as a kid, when I'm, like, arguing with Mormons, to be like, oh, speaking in tongues, blah, blah, blah. So we would hold the doctrine of what is called glossolalia. And so glossolalia is like a heavenly language. It's not necessarily. Whereas that's how we interpret it, is like a heavenly language. Whereas Mormonism is like the gift of tongues is like learning a language, or at least that's what it's turned into over the years. Yeah. So it is interesting. And that's why I mentioned, like, there are definitely other movements and other revivals. I mean, revivals have been going on for quite some time, and we have studied all of those, or at least in my family, we have.

Anna Schreyer [00:16:12] So there was definitely, like, precedent for it. But as far as a main theological, like, this is doctrine, like, the initial evidence of being filled with the Holy Spirit is in speaking in tongues, that was kind of birthed out of the Azusa Street Revival. That's why I mentioned that, is that it kind of sprung from there.

John Dehlin [00:16:36] And as I go through that Articles of Faith, will you tell me whether these things were prominent in Assemblies of God? So the gift of tongues.

Anna Schreyer [00:16:45] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:16:46] Prophecy?

Anna Schreyer [00:16:47] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:16:47] Visions?

Anna Schreyer [00:16:48] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:16:49] Healing?

Anna Schreyer [00:16:50] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:16:51] Interpretation of tongues?

Anna Schreyer [00:16:53] Not in our church, but yes.

John Dehlin [00:16:55] Okay. Okay. And to be clear, I think it's safe to say that what Joseph Smith meant by those words and teachings and what the Book of Mormon conveys using those concepts are all almost identical to the way y' all likely practiced it.

Anna Schreyer [00:17:15] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:17:15] Right.

Anna Schreyer [00:17:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:16] And when current Mormon missionaries redefine gift of tongues as like, a Mormon missionary goes overseas and is able to learn a language faster than what an average person would be able to learn it or can understand things, vocabulary that. Or say things that he normally Wouldn't be able to say, but God inspires him or her to either understand beyond his or her understanding or speak beyond his or her understanding. That sort of modern Mormon apologetic, just reinterpretation of words to cope with as almost like motivated reasoning. The dissonance of core Mormon fundamental doctrine changing and actually being eliminated over time. Is that fair?

Anna Schreyer [00:18:05] Yeah, for sure. And it's almost those things have faded out and now we have to reconcile why are we not doing these things anymore? Why is this not happening? So yeah, I agree.

John Dehlin [00:18:15] Yeah. Okay. Okay.

Anna Schreyer [00:18:16] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:18:17] Yeah. Okay. And so it's almost like what I'm hearing you say is these principles that we just outlined, tongues and prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, they've been around Christianity for a long, long time. But Assemblies of God were kind of the first corporate US based church to really codify them as central, essential to the practice.

Anna Schreyer [00:18:42] Yeah. So there were several Pentecostal denominations that were birthed out of that and even splintered off as time went on. I mean, you have Church of God in Christ, which is usually considered more of a black denomination, typically. I mean, that's not to say you can't go if you're not, but. And so that was birthed out of that same movement. And then eventually Four Square Church, which was like Amy Semple McPherson that kind of turned into that as well. So they were all kind of splintered off of this main event that happened in 1906.

John Dehlin [00:19:16] So by the way, we have an ex foursquare couple that we're gonna be bringing on Mormon stories soon to talk about that. Do you know about them?

Anna Schreyer [00:19:25] No. Oh, I know about foursquare. Ish. But I don't know about this specific couple.

John Dehlin [00:19:29] Oh no?

Margi Dehlin [00:19:30] No.

John Dehlin [00:19:30] Do you know about the faith tradition, the foursquares?

Anna Schreyer [00:19:33] Not as much. We were like kind of cousins, I guess, in a way. Like we would go to different foursquare churches growing up for different conferences. If they had a speaker come in, we would attend their services. Cause we're pretty closely tied. And my parents had a lot of respect for Aimee Semple McPherson and so they encouraged me to read her books when I was younger and things like that. So definitely same vibe. Never any animosity whatsoever.

John Dehlin [00:20:06] You may or may not know this, but they've been profiled nationally by 60 Minutes 2020 as being under investigation by the FBI for like sexual abuse of children, cover ups and stuff.

Anna Schreyer [00:20:18] Super sad.

John Dehlin [00:20:19] You didn't know that?

Anna Schreyer [00:20:19] No, I had no idea.

John Dehlin [00:20:20] But that's a church. You had affiliations with their fond feelings for growing up, for sure. Okay.

Anna Schreyer [00:20:26] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:20:26] Okay. All right.

Anna Schreyer [00:20:27] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:20:27] Okay. Margi, any questions about background before we go to. On a story?

Margi Dehlin [00:20:32] I don't think so.

John Dehlin [00:20:33] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:34] Okay. Well, thanks for giving us that background. I'm texting Chris because I love Chris Thomas. Christopher Thomas. He's Church of God. Is that different? That's different, yeah.

Anna Schreyer [00:20:44] It's a little different. And there's, like, two different Church of Gods. Like, one of them's out of Tennessee, and one of them's out of another. I can't remember.

John Dehlin [00:20:50] He's in Tennessee. He's in Knoxville. Okay. All right. Well, now let's get to your story as far as your parents go. Were they born assembly of God or.

Family Roots in the Assemblies of God

Anna Schreyer [00:21:00] So my mom was. Yeah, my mom is Assemblies of God pastor's kid, so her dad was AG pastor.

John Dehlin [00:21:08] What state or city in Missouri?

Anna Schreyer [00:21:10] Yeah, my mom grew up in Joplin, Missouri.

John Dehlin [00:21:12] Okay.

Anna Schreyer [00:21:12] So she grew up ag. Very Pentecostal, all of those things. Her brothers are both AG ministers, so it was very. And then my dad did not. I mean, he jokes about this, so I'm not being rude, but he jokes. Kind of heathen upbringing, you know, not at all a Christian home. And he actually, to use Christian language, got saved when he was in college. He's from Wyoming. And my parents met in a Christian band. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:21:47] So is it kind of rock?

Anna Schreyer [00:21:48] Rock band?

Margi Dehlin [00:21:49] No.

Anna Schreyer [00:21:49] No, I don't think so. I mean, they were kind of inching into that. I remember my mom always said that she thought it was really stupid because my dad played guitar, and so they went to go look for a guitarist. They had never had a guitarist in the band before, and they wanted to add a guitarist as they're getting more contemporary and things. And. And so they had stopped in this little town in Wyoming, and he auditioned and got the gig, and so they had him jump on the tour bus with him. And so she always thought it was silly, though, that they had a guitarist.

John Dehlin [00:22:19] So he joined as a guitarist, not as a convert.

Anna Schreyer [00:22:22] No, he was already. He was already a Christian. He was already. He wasn't Assemblies of God, but he had definitely gotten, like, bitten by the bug of, like, signs, Wonders and Miracles was into all of that. He tells a story about him reading the Bible and specifically reading the Book of Acts and going to his, like, Baptist pastor and being like, so when do we get to do this stuff? And his pastor was like, oh, buddy, this stuff doesn't happen anymore. And he was like, what?

John Dehlin [00:22:51] And he just kept meaning tongues.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:53] Yeah.

Anna Schreyer [00:22:53] Signs and wonders, the healings, the. You know, all of that. He was like, it doesn't happen. And so he was like, you know, there's a church down the street if you think that you will fit in better. Cause he kept pestering about it, and they eventually kind of kicked him out. Like, just go down the street, and they'll take care of you over there. And so he. I don't know what denomination that was, but it was more of a Pentecostal denomination that he joined after that, so.

John Dehlin [00:23:17] Got it. Okay. So around what year did your parents meet?

Anna Schreyer [00:23:21] So they would have met in 88, 87 or 88.

John Dehlin [00:23:25] Okay. Yeah, that's right. And I'm just trying to get my own timeline. That's right around the time I'm graduating from high school.

Anna Schreyer [00:23:30] So, yeah. So, yep. They. My dad had gone to Casper College in Wyoming. He was actually there for opera singing. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:23:40] He's a singer.

Anna Schreyer [00:23:41] He is, yeah. Family is very musical. Very musical. So he had done that. My mom went to an Assemblies of God liberal arts university in Missouri called Evangel. She went there, and then she had already graduated. And when they met, it was a very. Not quite a Mormon story, but, like, first date, my dad told her he loved her. Within, like, three weeks, he proposed. But then it changes a little bit because they waited a year to get married, but still very, very quick. And then after they had gotten married, he had decided he wanted to be a pastor, and so he went to another Assemblies of God Bible college, different from the one she went to, but it was a Bible college in Missouri and did that.

John Dehlin [00:24:29] Okay. And do they have women pastors in Assemblies of God?

Anna Schreyer [00:24:31] Yes. Yeah. So women have always been a part of the movement. So when it first started, it was like a. Okay, you can be an evangelist. You can be a missionary. We need those. So, yeah. So they were allowed to preach, but they weren't allowed to be pastors. They weren't allowed to be leaders. Over the church in the 30s gets a little dicey because they had started as obviously, an interracial movement, and in the 30s, they actually removed rights from black ministers being ordained in the assemblies in the 30s. And from my understanding, there was a little bit of a gap that needed to be filled as far as ministers that were able to be pastors because they just lost a lot of black ministers.

Anna Schreyer [00:25:21] Yes. And so that ended up being filled by a lot of women. So in 1935, I think women were from then on allowed to be ordained as ministers in the Assemblies God. Yeah. Kind of cool. Kind of like.

John Dehlin [00:25:34] Yeah, thanks. But Right.

Anna Schreyer [00:25:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:36] So did your mom pursue becoming a pastor, too, or just.

Anna Schreyer [00:25:39] So my parents. I would consider them both the pastors of the church that they are. Okay, pastors of. So she is, like, ordained with the assemblies. They just say that they senior pastor together. That was always confusing as a kid, because I would tell people, like, my parents are pastors, and they're like, so your dad is a pastor? And I'm like, no, my parents are pastors.

Anna Schreyer [00:25:58] But, yeah, she has. It kind of depends. I'll explain this just, like, slightly, because I think it's important. The Assemblies of God, because they kind of say that they're a fellowship rather than a denomination, even though they're totally a denomination. To be clear. To be clear, it is a denomination.

Anna Schreyer [00:26:20] They kind of have an attitude within their churches that if the pastor is agreeing to the 16 fundamental truths and abiding by some rules to, like, hold his ordination, you know, like abstaining from alcohol, some different things like that.

Anna Schreyer [00:26:36] That within their church, you can kind of focus on whatever you would like. So there's gonna be people that listen to this, and they're gonna be like, I grew up in a son who's God. Well, maybe. Maybe somebody will listen to this and have grown up in Assemblies of God church.

John Dehlin [00:26:52] Oh, for sure they will.

Anna Schreyer [00:26:53] And they might say, that wasn't my experience. And that's probably true because you can walk into any Assemblies of God church and they can have a different focus. I've. You know, our church was very, like, signs, wonders and miracles focused, like, very much so. But then, like, my uncle's church, for example, was, like, calm and, like, you go in and he's doing, like, a scriptural exegesis and, like, you know, and believed in the things, believed in speaking in tongues, but just wasn't as prominent. So it just kind of depends.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:23] Interesting. So less correlation than Mormonism. Mormonism is kind of known that wherever you go, you show up.

John Dehlin [00:27:29] It's like adults. You have the same experience.

Anna Schreyer [00:27:32] Yeah. Not quite as cookie cutter. It's not as conforming, which allows for some cool things and then some not so cool things.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:41] Right.

Anna Schreyer [00:27:41] Yeah. Right.

Parents' Move to Utah and Church Beginnings

John Dehlin [00:27:42] So your parents meet around 87, 88. They get married a year later.

Anna Schreyer [00:27:47] 89. Yep.

John Dehlin [00:27:49] And how did they get to Utah from Missouri?

Anna Schreyer [00:27:52] Yeah. So they became pastors of a church in a small town, like, right outside of Springfield. It's called Branson, if anybody knows. Silver Dollar City.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:02] Yeah.

Anna Schreyer [00:28:03] So they were pastors of a church there? Well, at that point, I think it would be just my dad, but he was a senior pastor of that church. And. And after a few years of that, I was born in 1997. I'm the youngest of four.

John Dehlin [00:28:17] Okay.

Anna Schreyer [00:28:18] And it was quick. So from top to bottom, it's four and a half years from my oldest sibling. To me, it was really fast. It was fast. So she had a lot of Littles.

John Dehlin [00:28:30] Four kids in five years. Okay.

Anna Schreyer [00:28:32] Yep. And in 1997, they had a friend that had moved out here to Salt Lake City. I don't know how close of friends they were, but he was starting a church plant here that was an Assemblies of God church plant. And they felt really strongly that they were supposed to go with him and to help him with the church plant. So not long after I was born in July and In September of 97, they moved out here. We lived in Layton, but my dad was on staff at that church, and that how they got out here.

John Dehlin [00:29:05] Oh, see? So they joined an existing planted Assemblies of God church already.

Anna Schreyer [00:29:10] It was a new church plant, so he had started it, and they joined very soon after. Yeah. And so the way that it worked for them, leaving their position at the church that they were pastors at the assemblies, essentially sent them as missionaries just to kind of transfer their title from senior pastor to them going to be on staff at this church. So they had sent them as missionaries. And of course, like, all anybody ever knows about Utah is Mormons. So they were like, yeah, we're gonna do it. We're gonna save Utah. It's happening. So that was like, a big focus for them. It's not so much anymore, I don't think. But that was a huge.

John Dehlin [00:29:55] Let's hit that straight on. So when it. You're not the first evangelical I've met that's come to Utah to kind of save Mormons. How do evangelicals like you and your family often view Mormons? They don't. Clearly. It's not. Oh, they're Christians just like the rest of us, right?

Anna Schreyer [00:30:12] No, very clearly not. How dare you? No, it was like a. It was a big deal. So when I was young, how I understood it was like, they're not Christians. Well, why? Because they believe in a different Jesus. I don't have the theological foundation to be able to explain to you why you believe in a different Jesus than I am. I'm running around the school being like, you believe in a different Jesus. That's all I had. But for. If I were to go outside of it, for my parents, I think, obviously Jesus is a big deal, and Jesus, having always been God, is a big deal. So that was really looked down, up by my family. Because.

John Dehlin [00:30:58] So Mormons, in your view, Mormons believe that Jesus has always been God?

Margi Dehlin [00:31:03] No.

Anna Schreyer [00:31:04] So Mormons, no. So the opposite. So that Jesus was created and that he became a God, like the Brigham Young, you know, as man is God once was as God is man may become. Like, that was like really problematic for them because this is John 1:1, in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. Like Jesus is the Word made flesh. So he's always been God, he wasn't created.

John Dehlin [00:31:28] How do y' all deal with what, what Mormons often put forward as their selling point, that the, this idea of Jesus being God but also being the Son and being God up in heaven, but also in flesh down bodies, but also human. And they're human, you know, but he can be killed. Like, how did y' all deal with that whole Trinity mishmash that Mormons would say is more confusing and weird?

Anna Schreyer [00:31:53] I didn't deal with it well, so I'll just speak for myself. I don't understand it still. I mean, I can't even tell you the amount of times I've been like, dad, the Trinity, what's going on? Because quite honestly, Mormonism makes more sense in that regard. Then we would point the finger, take

John Dehlin [00:32:12] that

Anna Schreyer [00:32:15] point for Mormonism. We would, you know, be like, you're polytheist, you believe in multiple gods. That was huge. There shall be no other gods. Like there are no other gods. So that was really problematic. And then I heard you guys talk about this somewhat recently, but about the planet thing, that it's kind of fading out at this point.

John Dehlin [00:32:39] But the Joseph taught that we would eventually become Mormon, that faithful Mormons would become gods and rule their own planet. Y' all thought, what?

Anna Schreyer [00:32:48] Okay, so this is very problematic because our story of how Satan became Satan was that he was an angel in heaven. And then he wanted to be so much like God. And so it's different completely. Like our origins are different, but he wanted to be so much like God that then he was kicked out. Because you can't be like God, you don't get to do that. So he's kicked out. And then Mormons are like, we get to be our own God someday. We get to be like God. And we're like, that's Satan. Quite literally Satan. This is the origin story that we believe that like a lot of it, you can find bits and pieces and kind of wrap it around the story that now, like church history has told us of, like who Satan is.

Anna Schreyer [00:33:39] But it's Kind of just our. Our version of who, like, Lucifer was. But that was really problematic too. Cause it was like, that's you. You're doing the thing that Satan did.

John Dehlin [00:33:50] And that explains why Ed Decker made the God Makers, because it's just an outrageous. For mainstream Christians that made. I actually, I haven't really noted that context that that's what made Satan. Satan is trying aspiring to be too much like God. And that's. And so you're seeing Mormons repeat that sin basically through Joseph Smith.

Anna Schreyer [00:34:15] Yeah. And it is interesting because there is kind of biblical precedent for us to believe that we will be like, coheirs with Christ and we're kind of ruling and reigning, but not in the. We would never be like, I'm going to be worshipped someday. That is like. And I've asked many Mormon friends when I was strongly believing, like, so if Elohim was once a man and then he was exalted into a God and he became the God of this planet, but then you become a God.

Anna Schreyer [00:34:47] Do you just disregard Elohim now? Or is this like a pyramid scheme? And everybody's running, they have their downline, like, how does this. How does this work? And I was like, why would I spend my whole life worshiping my God only to end up just being like, thank you so much. See you never. And just start my own plan. Like, it never clicked in my head because our whole point was we get to be in eternity with God, we get to be in eternity with Jesus, and that's it. So, like, to kind of separate it in that way was. Was really bizarre to me.

John Dehlin [00:35:24] Maybe you phone home on Sunday nights or something.

Anna Schreyer [00:35:25] You know what? You might. You get a little pep talk.

John Dehlin [00:35:27] And he's like, grandpa God, Grandpa God.

Anna Schreyer [00:35:29] You know, he's like, I've been there, kid. I made that mistake too, rookie.

John Dehlin [00:35:33] The whole genocide thing. Yeah, been there.

Anna Schreyer [00:35:36] Good luck cleaning it up. Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:35:40] That's awesome. Well, you know, we don't have to get into this, but, you know, it could be super boring just hanging around God for eternity. Right. Like, what do you do all day?

Margi Dehlin [00:35:52] Not.

Anna Schreyer [00:35:53] Not what we're told. No, the entirety of the reason is like, throne room 24 7. I mean, at least the Christianity that I grew up in, it wasn't like,

John Dehlin [00:36:02] what does that mean? Throne room.

Anna Schreyer [00:36:03] Okay. Oh, gosh. So there's like a lot of biblical references to the throne room where Jesus is seated. Like Ezekiel, Revelation, Isaiah. Those are, like, really big. Anyway. Okay. The Christianity I grew up in was like, very Jesus focused. So it was not. You get to see Grandma and you get your mansion in heaven, and hopefully Rufus is there too. It was not like that. It was, like, cool. I'm so happy that my family gets to be there. But it was Jesus. We are going there to spend eternity with Jesus, like, the only one who's worth it, and he's worthy of eternal praise. Like, we will be in the throne room with the 24 elders, the four living creatures. We will be praising along with them on our knees, casting our crowns before him. That's it.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:52] What are the four living creatures?

Anna Schreyer [00:36:53] Oh, wow.

John Dehlin [00:36:54] And who are the 24. What?

Margi Dehlin [00:36:56] Yeah, 24 elders.

Anna Schreyer [00:36:57] Wow, guys. Okay, so Revelation 4. Wow, this is wild.

Margi Dehlin [00:37:04] Okay.

Anna Schreyer [00:37:05] It's so funny to think that this is so normal to me. Revelation 4 talks about, like, this open vision that John has of. Of the throne room of heaven where Jesus is seated. And I will not get all of the details correct because they're pretty out there. But there are these angels that are the four living creatures. They differ from book to book slightly in their appearance, but they're all kind of noted as the same beings.

John Dehlin [00:37:36] Like a minotaur.

Margi Dehlin [00:37:37] Yeah. Super weird.

Anna Schreyer [00:37:38] Okay. So they have four different. So they're like. They're a body, but they have four different faces. So it's lion, eagle, ox, and man. And I'm really embarrassed to say I know all this because I have tattoos all about the throne room. You guys probably can't see it through my. But it's all embarrassingly here anyway.

John Dehlin [00:38:02] The thumbnail shows your tattoo on your arm.

Anna Schreyer [00:38:04] Okay, good.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:05] Great.

Anna Schreyer [00:38:06] So they are covered in eyes. Eyes covered eyes. Eyes. Eyeballs all over.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:14] Wow.

Anna Schreyer [00:38:16] And they are worshiping in Isaiah 6. There's, like, one description of the seraphim. So seraphim is, like, plural, but it's a similar creature. So, like, four faces or whatever. But it says, and above the throne of God, there were seraphim with six wings. With two, they covered their faces. With two, they covered their feet, and with two, they flew. But they're also covered in eyes, which is cool. And a lot of people have really deep, like, interpretations of all of those things. Like, I don't know if you guys have ever heard of, like, Ezekiel's wheel. Oh, gosh. Oh, gosh. Okay. Ezekiel's wheel is also an angel.

Anna Schreyer [00:38:58] It's called an ophan. And an ophan is like, a wheel within a wheel. It's also covered in eyes. It's got some wings. I'm pretty sure it's on fire. And it represents, like, the way they've Described it now is like the, like, omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence of God. So it, like, can move in all directions, it sees all things, and it's powerful.

Anna Schreyer [00:39:20] Weird stuff. Anyway, you get into revelation and it's funky, and I don't understand it, but I sure did get a full sleeve about it. So.

Pentecostal Theology on Heaven, Healing, and End Times

John Dehlin [00:39:28] So heaven, you're up there, you're praising Jesus 24 by 7 for eternity.

Anna Schreyer [00:39:34] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:39:34] And there's these four weird Minotaur, Centaur, Greco Roman creatures that are half animal, half human, along with these seraphim and angels. And they've all got eyes all over them.

Anna Schreyer [00:39:46] Yeah, yeah, they do.

John Dehlin [00:39:48] And it's. Yeah. I mean, I think Mormons wouldn't say this. Like, I think Mormons tend to not take revelations super literally, and they probably emphasize it less and less each decade that goes by.

Anna Schreyer [00:40:02] Smart. It's probably smart for them.

John Dehlin [00:40:04] So this idea of, like, now, I think of revelation is almost like a mushroom trip that, you know, there's got some spiritual value if you're a believer, but certainly not actually trying to describe what literal heaven is like.

Anna Schreyer [00:40:19] No.

John Dehlin [00:40:19] But for y', all, it is.

Anna Schreyer [00:40:20] Yeah. So the way that I always understood it was obviously Jesus talks about the kingdom of heaven, and we grew up believing the kingdom of heaven is now. It's a now thing. Like, it's bringing heaven to earth. It's like we are acting out what Jesus did on earth, which is like Matthew, I think, 10. He says, you know, as you go preach this message, the kingdom of heaven is here. Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, cast out demons. That's our call. So that's what we would believe. Like, kingdom of heaven. But as far as, like, heaven as a place.

John Dehlin [00:41:02] Wait, say those again. Say those again.

Anna Schreyer [00:41:04] So it's heal the sick, raise the

John Dehlin [00:41:06] dead, heal the sick through divine healing, blessings through Jesus.

Anna Schreyer [00:41:11] Jesus is empowering us to do those

John Dehlin [00:41:14] things, to heal the sick, heal the sick, which Mormons try and do, but we all know it does. Doesn't really work. Or we talk ourselves into believing it works. But. Okay. Healing the sick, raise the dead.

Anna Schreyer [00:41:23] Raise the dead.

John Dehlin [00:41:23] That's like Lazarus level resurrection.

Anna Schreyer [00:41:26] Yeah. So I grew up in a denomination. Well, I'm a denomination, but I grew up, people. Yeah. Believing that you could raise the dead. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:41:35] Okay. Yeah, we'll get into that.

Anna Schreyer [00:41:37] We will. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:39] Okay. So that's number two.

Anna Schreyer [00:41:40] Raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy.

John Dehlin [00:41:44] Yeah.

Anna Schreyer [00:41:44] Cast out demons.

John Dehlin [00:41:46] Wait, leprosy is number three. Figurative leprosy. Gets its own thing. Yeah. Even though it's really not a thing anymore.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:53] So what is leprosy to you all?

Anna Schreyer [00:41:56] I don't know if I necessarily. So it's funny because when I lived in Africa, which we'll get into it, we would go into communities and they would be like, lepers. Like, they would say that they were lepers because they had like flesh eating diseases. And so it's kind of interesting because we were like. That's in the book. Bring it in. I've like hugged people with like. And like prayed for people that have had just these awful. Their fingers are falling off. And so I think we would just equate it to something like that. It wasn't like necessarily like literal. Literal in a sense. Like, it wasn't like we were like, oh, outcasts. Like lepers in an outcast community. It's not like we went that far to make it poetic, but we would just say, like it kind of covers people whose fingers are falling off.

John Dehlin [00:42:43] And I don't mean to say. I know leprosy exists in certain developing countries still. I didn't mean to say that it doesn't. But I mean, in America it doesn't matter.

Anna Schreyer [00:42:51] No, it didn't matter. We were going for it with that. So I guess it was just like, go to Africa. I don't know. Like, I don't know. That was.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:57] Go and find it.

Anna Schreyer [00:42:58] Go and find it and do that.

John Dehlin [00:43:00] Okay, so what comes after leprosy?

Margi Dehlin [00:43:02] Yeah.

Anna Schreyer [00:43:03] Casting out demons.

John Dehlin [00:43:04] Okay. Now Mormons are still cool with that apparently.

Anna Schreyer [00:43:07] Yeah, we're super cool with it too. So we've got that in common. We can shake on that.

John Dehlin [00:43:11] Okay. Okay. So those are like the four great things you're supposed to do on this earth.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:16] Yeah.

Anna Schreyer [00:43:16] So it's. I don't know. I'll be honest with you. This is emphasized in the church I grew up in. So I don't know what other people are like. That is not what we. But we had it when I was a kid. We had it painted on. So in our sanctuary, the whole wall of the sanctuary was painted with that verse.

John Dehlin [00:43:34] Wow.

Anna Schreyer [00:43:35] I think it's. I think it's 1017. Matthew. 1017. No, Matthew 10, 7 and 8, maybe. I don't know, it's.

John Dehlin [00:43:43] I have to say, there's something that's been painted over. There's something hardcore, almost admirable about the Assemblies of God and Pentecostals because, you know, like, it's often noted that if, you know, Mormons believe through blessed sacred oil, you can Heal the sick. And that's one of the virtues of the blessings of priesthood power. But ex Mormons often note that if we literally have that power, we should just drop everything. We do, go to all the hospitals, just say, hey, doctors, we've got this. Stand down, and then just go heal everybody. Right.

Anna Schreyer [00:44:18] We believe that. My dad was a chaplain at a hospital for many years for that reason.

John Dehlin [00:44:24] Wow.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:24] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:44:25] And I guess I'm saying that's kind of admirable, because if you really do have a healing superpower, why wouldn't that be front and center of what you're always doing?

Anna Schreyer [00:44:32] Yes, exactly. And what better way to exemplify that Christ still lives than to go and

John Dehlin [00:44:39] do the things, raise the dead, heal

Anna Schreyer [00:44:41] the sick, cleanse those of lepers.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:43] Can I ask you a quick question around that? And I'm noticing, like, we could do beliefs, this belief thing I know all day long. And I am curious about your story too, but I do want to follow up and just ask, what was the narrative? If you tried to heal someone, you blessed someone to get better, but they didn't get better?

Anna Schreyer [00:45:04] That depends on the person entirely.

John Dehlin [00:45:06] So let me guess. Blame reversal. But go ahead.

Anna Schreyer [00:45:09] Sometimes, yeah, sometimes blame reversal. Sometimes you got a demon bummer. Like, you better get somebody who comes let out before.

John Dehlin [00:45:17] So if a demon blocks. Demons have the power to block a healing?

Anna Schreyer [00:45:21] Yes, absolutely. So there's. There's a lot of different. Like, yeah, there's a lot of different people that we were around that had different ideas on that. So for example, some people would do the blame reversal. Like, you must. You must have some hidden sin.

Anna Schreyer [00:45:38] That's what it is. You must have some hidden sin. And. And you probably need to go repent. And then maybe, you know, your sin is actually blocking God's healing. And that was like a pretty common thing. And I'll admit that like, like that was sometimes talked about in my church. I think my parents moved further away from that idea. But then there's a lot of people that, that would say, like, well, it just wasn't God's will, which wasn't what we believed, because we were like, it is always God's will to heal. So we would probably lean on some other external thing because we would never make God look bad.

Anna Schreyer [00:46:15] It was always, you know, something. Something is not right. Because God says he wants to heal you. Like in the Lord's Prayer, it's like he's asking for heaven to come to earth. And we're like, well, there's no sickness in heaven. So if we're asking for heaven to come to earth, then, like, clearly God doesn't want that.

John Dehlin [00:46:34] Yeah. Mormons most often, I think today would default to it wasn't God's will. It's like, we'll do the healing if you're healed. It's because we have priesthood power that heals if you're not healed. It must not have been God's will. Mormons aren't gonna default to. You weren't worthy enough these days, I don't think.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:50] Yeah.

Anna Schreyer [00:46:51] And I would say, like, it's interesting because I think that if people were healed to whatever extent you would believe that it was in the circle I grew up with, it was always credited to Jesus. It wasn't like this special man or this. Because we were told this. Everyone can do this. Everyone can do this stuff. Everyone can heal the sick. Everyone can prophesy. Everyone can.

John Dehlin [00:47:15] It's everyone, even if you're not baptized.

Anna Schreyer [00:47:18] So baptism for us was an outward proclamation of what already happened inwardly. So it's not an initiation in any way. And it's more so just like you are exemplifying what's already taken place inside you spiritually.

Margi Dehlin [00:47:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:37] Well, I apologize to viewers and listeners. We're kind of focusing a lot on doctrine because I think it's fun to learn, but that takes us away from your actual story. Oh, it's so fun.

Anna Schreyer [00:47:48] I love it.

Growing Up Pentecostal in Utah

John Dehlin [00:47:49] So your family, your parents decide to move to Utah in the late 90s, and they join a Davis county, newly Salt Lake City.

Anna Schreyer [00:47:59] We're here in Salt Lake City, so they lived in Layton, but the church was in Salt Lake.

John Dehlin [00:48:03] Oh, so it's a Salt Lake City assembly of Go church.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:05] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:48:06] Okay. So. Yeah. What was it like to come to Utah for you? Oh, first, let me ask this. How impoverished are families that, like, move to some random state and start a brand new church? Are you living, like, on food stamps or you live in high on the Hog or somewhere in the middle?

Anna Schreyer [00:48:23] No. So my parents, when they moved out here, we had some connections of a Davis county private Christian school that through a series of events, doesn't matter. But my mom ended up going on staff there as a teacher, so she was teaching at a private school. And then my dad got like a very minimal salary. So we were like, not living it great. But we were making do. And people. It's the same thing as in Mormon communities. People took care of each other, so we were taken care of. It was never like, really a struggle, or at least like, I was too young to have realized that, like, we were just having a blast. So.

John Dehlin [00:49:05] So, like, people bringing each other meals?

Anna Schreyer [00:49:07] Yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [00:49:08] So casseroles aren't just a Mormon thing?

Anna Schreyer [00:49:10] No, no, not at all. And it is, like, obviously a smaller community in that sense, but especially with my dad being on staff and my parents being so involved, that's a little extra cushion of community that you have. Whereas maybe an average person in the late 90s in an assemblies of God church in Salt Lake City, Utah, might not have had the largest community, but we had a little bit of extra just because of being on staff. So.

John Dehlin [00:49:34] Okay, and so what was your family culture like? I'm just imagining we're all moving to Utah to convert these heathen Mormons and mother, father, all the children. We're all in this together, you know? Is that.

Anna Schreyer [00:49:49] Yeah. So obviously I was an infant, so I don't remember the hoorah speeches by any sense, but they, they were really involved in the church that they had. When you move to a place, and I've now experienced this as an adult, when you move to a place for a specific church, that becomes the entirety of everything. So between the Christian school that my mom was. Was a teacher at and this church, Christianity was everything. And it already was everything before, but even more so because we didn't have family here, we didn't know anybody here other than the leaders of the church. It just becomes your. Your kind of rock that you cling to. So that's. That's all. I. I don't remember any, like, I mean, we'll get into it when I get a little bit older, but I'm too young to remember the initial, like, initiatory speeches, I guess.

John Dehlin [00:50:46] So when your parents. Just to get a sense for the growth over time, when your parents first got here, where do you think the congregation met and how many people were attending versus, like, where they. Where, like what type of building they meet in now and how many are attending. Like, what was the growth over what span of time?

Anna Schreyer [00:51:07] Yeah, so I think when they first moved here, it was still a somewhat popular church because it's new, it's young, it's hip, it's different. So I assume there were a lot of ex Mormons and people in the community that were looking for something that wasn't quite Baptist or even, like, orthodox, that they were looking for something kind of fresh. So from my understanding, and again, I was too young, my parents became. Became pastors of a different church later on. From my understanding, it was a cool church, and I think to this day still a pretty cool church, it's still around.

John Dehlin [00:51:40] So the Salt Lake one was hopping about how many members do you think would be attending?

Anna Schreyer [00:51:44] 150. I would say over 100 for sure. But not close to a thousand. No, no, no, no, no. Not by any means. I would guess between 100 to 300. Which at the time, time for an ag church in Utah was probably significant because there weren't a lot of us when we first moved here in the 90s.

John Dehlin [00:52:06] It was its own building. Like it had its own church.

Anna Schreyer [00:52:08] Yeah, they had their own building. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:10] Okay. That's comparable to the size of a Mormon congregation, or Mormon word, few hundred people.

Anna Schreyer [00:52:15] Yep. So like the average church in America is like 50 people. So that was pretty big.

John Dehlin [00:52:21] Okay.

Anna Schreyer [00:52:22] For us at least it was like, that's a decent sized church.

John Dehlin [00:52:25] Okay.

Anna Schreyer [00:52:25] But I am also have been, you know, I've attended like quasi mega churches too.

John Dehlin [00:52:31] So assembly of God megachurches. No.

Anna Schreyer [00:52:34] Oh, no. Just non denominators exist or. No, they do. Yeah. James river in spring. Oh, my gosh, it's huge. In Springfield, Missouri. Yeah, it's huge. Did you ever see any. This is off topic. There's a video of a monster truck rally that happened at a men's conference. James River Church.

John Dehlin [00:52:51] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:52] Praise God.

Anna Schreyer [00:52:54] Yeah, that's the vibe.

John Dehlin [00:52:55] So, okay, so your parents start out in that Salt Lake church, and then at some point they go create their own.

Anna Schreyer [00:53:01] Yeah, so I'll go into, like a little bit because there is some defining things. When we first moved, for my parents, moving to Salt Lake was like opening up a whole new world of, like, the supernatural. They had never really experienced that before.

Anna Schreyer [00:53:19] There's a book called this Present Darkness by Frank Peretti. I've never read it, I'll be honest with you, but apparently it has a lot of, like, stories of like, demonic visitations and things like that. So my parents tell this story of moving to Utah was like them being introduced to the supernatural, both demonic and angelic.

Anna Schreyer [00:53:45] So my. My dad, and he still tells this story to this day, so I'm not saying anything that he would be embarrassed by, but he used to go to Temple Square to go and pray. Not for revelation on the Mormon Church, but probably against the Mormon Church to some regard, like intercession going for it. And he was walking around Temple Square and he rounded what would be the south, I guess it was like the southeast kind of corner. Corner where the old. Like in between the temple and like the south visitor center used to be. So he rounds the corner and he sees a giant demon in Temple Square.

Anna Schreyer [00:54:31] In the temple grounds giant, he would call it a principality, which is like a mega demon. They rule over more stuff. And as the story goes, he told. He asked the demon, are you the ruler of this church? Do you run this church? And the demon said, I've been here long before them, and I'll be here long after they're gone.

Anna Schreyer [00:54:56] So I don't know what happened after that. But fast forward a little bit, and my dad is in his bed and he's woken up. Same demon fills the room and is over the top of him like a blanket, is how he describes it. And he said, I know why you're here, and I'm going to kill you and your family.

Anna Schreyer [00:55:20] Fast forward a little bit further. And I wake up one day and I have a bump on the side of my head. Who hit on a. You know, I'm the youngest, stuff happens, blah, blah, blah. Nobody knows I didn't do it, you know. And a nurse at the church that my parents were attending, she was pretty concerned about it, and she kept asking questions, and my parents were like, yeah, yeah, like, we'll take her to the doctors. Like, we'll get it taken care of.

Anna Schreyer [00:55:52] But then she ended up calling them the next day and she said, hey, I'm very concerned. And I have made June appointment with oncology. And so I was brought in and they did scans, MRIs, all of that, and found out that it was cancer.

John Dehlin [00:56:09] So you're how old?

Anna Schreyer [00:56:10] I am just shy of being two at that point. So toddler. I remember a lot of this. Weirdly, it was like, so traumatic that I have, like, key memories of, like, kind of having cancer from kind of start to finish.

Anna Schreyer [00:56:26] But obviously they're freaked out, the people. I went to Primary Children's, and they didn't know what type of cancer it was, but they did know it was cancerous in their discussions and kind of back and forth, back and forth. My parents decided, hey, well, you guys are doing your thing, we're going to do ours. And they took me on a plane up to Toronto, Canada, because there was a revival happening in Toronto, Canada.

Anna Schreyer [00:56:56] Big movement and lots of stories of people being healed, all of that kind of stuff. So they brought me up there to be prayed for because they thought that I was going to get healed from this cancerous tumor. It was a little bit bigger than the size of a golf ball.

Anna Schreyer [00:57:13] And so they brought me up there and I didn't get healed. They brought me back to Utah. But I can say about that, like, they. They believed, like, that is really admirable to me, where I'm like, they read that Bible and they, they believed it. So I do appreciate that in a lot of ways. But then they also didn't hold so firmly that they wouldn't let doctors intervene.

Anna Schreyer [00:57:40] So there was a miracle of sorts that happened. When I got back, there was a woman that was speaking at a medical conference at the U of U, and she was an oncologist. And they brought her in to look at my case because they were like, we don't know what this is. Like, we have no idea.

Anna Schreyer [00:57:58] And she took one look at it and said, I know exactly what that is. And I happen to be the seventh person in the world to be diagnosed with this type of cancer. And she happened to be one of the doctors that worked on one of the other six people in the world that was diagnosed with it.

Anna Schreyer [00:58:18] So pretty remarkable, pretty miraculous in the sense of the word. And they basically just said, hey, you just gotta. You gotta have surgery, you gotta cut it out. But during this time, obviously, my parents are kind of rallying the troops to be praying for me, including my uncle's church.

Anna Schreyer [00:58:39] And as the story goes, my uncle had a lady in her congregation that was praying for me, and she had a vision. And in this vision, there was a demon talon in the side of my head, and the demon talon was cut off. And. And she said that she saw me standing in front of thousands and preaching the gospel to thousands as a grown woman.

Anna Schreyer [00:59:09] So that is a story that I have been told my entire life that's pretty, pretty internalized. And it kind of. And I don't think that that was at all their intention. I mean, to them, they were like, isn't God so good? Like, there was no trying to give me a complex or anything, but. But over the course of my childhood, I kind of internalized like three major things from that of like, I'm super special.

Anna Schreyer [00:59:40] God saved me for a reason. If God is going to save me again if something happens, I better not mess this up. Because it was like he took care of me. There were actually several other pastor's kids in the region that got diagnosed with cancer around the same time, and some of them didn't make it. And so in. In my mind, I'm like, well, God. God did that for me. God made sure that doctor was there and God, you know, so that was kind of a story that was very internalized and kind of the intro to. To being in Utah for us.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:17] Kind of your origin story.

Anna Schreyer [01:00:19] Very much so.

Childhood Experiences with Demons and Fear

Margi Dehlin [01:00:21] So you mentioned kind of the demon part in the beginning, as a child being told that story, this idea of a demon threatening your dad. He wakes up and he says, basically, he's gonna cause harm to your dad and his family. Right?

John Dehlin [01:00:39] Mm.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:41] Do you remember as a child what you thought about demons? Were they terrifying? Were they. Were you kind of more like, well, God's all powerful, so if I'm righteous, I'm good. Like, that seems very personal. And for a child, this idea of a demon putting something on your head because he's trying to, like, how was that for you, hearing that story and internalizing that?

Anna Schreyer [01:01:08] Demons were very real, but they were also like. It sounds bad because it is, but my parents very much so told us that we were powerful through Christ and that we were able to cast out demons and send demons away.

Anna Schreyer [01:01:31] And so from the time I was really young, we'd wake up scared because we thought we saw something in our room and go downstairs to mom and dad's room, knock on the door and be like, hey, something's in there. And I remember them being like, yeah, well, that's a demon, and you need to go tell it to leave. In the name of Jesus.

Anna Schreyer [01:01:50] That was it. And hindsight now hearing the story from my parents end, you know, they. They did sneak up afterwards and stand outside the door and listen to us, you know, praying. You know, it wasn't like this, like, I want to. I want to go back to sleep, necessarily, because they were. But it was, like, training that we were going to be trained to know that we have authority over the demonic. But the demonic is very real. Very real. So that was kind of what I thought of demons and thought that demon possession was very common. It was often said if somebody was in really angry, like, if we encountered someone on the street or at a restaurant, and they're just super angry and mean and just kind of vile.

Anna Schreyer [01:02:42] Like, the. The common phrase that would be said is like, whew, like, he's got some passengers on board. Like, meaning, like, he's got some demons.

John Dehlin [01:02:50] Yeah. Margi, you mentioned the word kind of origin story or founding story. Like, you know, obviously Mormonism starts with the charismatic event, which is Joseph Smith having this theophany of the Lord in version the 1832 version, or God and Jesus in the 1838 version, appearing to him, telling him none of the churches were true, and then telling him he needed to start the one true church and apostasy and Angel Moroni, like, having divine spirits. And there's the story of Joseph Smith being attacked by an evil spirit as a precursor to Seeing God in Jesus, that's all part of the founding Mormon story that I think gives Mormonism so much of its juice is just that divine sanction from the start.

John Dehlin [01:03:42] And I'm just thinking how useful it probably would be to have a family in the case your family, or a church in the case of your parents church, start out with, like, a vision of some demon overseeing temple square, that the Mormon Church was being led by a demon, that that demon was attacking members of the church and even the children of the couple that's leading it.

John Dehlin [01:04:13] And that, you know, that God healed Jesus, healed our child who had cancer early on. And now we're all, as a family leading this church in Davis county, doing our part in the Vineyard to team with Jesus to fight this demon led what Mormon Church? Like, that's a really powerful, useful narrative to motivate everybody and to get them all on board for a cause. Right?

Margi Dehlin [01:04:42] Yeah.

Anna Schreyer [01:04:43] And I will admit, like, as far as the Mormonism stuff, like, my parents probably fell off of, like, the offense quite a bit in that regard.

John Dehlin [01:04:57] Going against the church.

Anna Schreyer [01:04:58] Going against the church. Yeah. And they've always been, like, fairly gracious, but at the same time, like, you get hyped about something, like, anybody's gonna be super passionate and then kind of trip over their feet and make some mistakes. And so I'm not saying that the demon stuff is that, but the demon story, for me personally, that was. I never thought of it in regards. I never connected really the Mormon Church with that moment, but with me personally, that God had saved me to do great things was really important.

John Dehlin [01:05:33] And of course, Mormons identify with feeling like they're exceptional, chosen to save the world.

Anna Schreyer [01:05:40] And that was very much our family. I mean, my. My parents raised us and. And it is, in a lot of ways, I am so thankful because I was a super confident kid, super confident, could take on anything. But at the same time, to realize that, like, hey, you're not. You're not that great. Like, not in a bad way, but just like kind of coming to this humility of being like, oh, oh, wow. Like, my parents raised us and they would say, they would shorten the phrase to kings and presidents, and that meant that one day you are going to stand before kings and presidents. And they believed it. It was not. Yeah, it was. We are making choices that will put us before rulers that rule nations and make a difference.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:25] So with this context, as a girl,

Anna Schreyer [01:06:26] you grow up a little.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:27] Is it okay if I jump ahead? So you're a girl now. How do you view your Community in the world. With this story and with the beliefs that you now kind of have, I'm just curious, like, how do you view the world? Do you view it as scary? Do you view it as, like, scary, but I'm here to redeem it through Jesus, or I'm, you know, like, how are you viewing your classmates, the world in general?

Anna Schreyer [01:06:58] Are you fearless?

Margi Dehlin [01:06:59] Are you scared?

Anna Schreyer [01:07:00] I don't think I was scared necessarily. Obviously, there's moments of being scared, but when you're told, like, you got the keys, like, you know what you're doing, you know how to do this, that was really encouraging to me. And so even though, like, I'd see things like people manifesting what then I believed would be a demon in church services, you know, people are, you know, rolling around, eyes rolling to the back of their head, shaking, you know, violently and things like that. That's freaky. But then at the end of the day, I'm like, but Jesus.

Anna Schreyer [01:07:40] Like, they're scared of Jesus, and I have Jesus in my heart. I always believed that, like, from the time I was a little girl, like, I always believed, like, Jesus is in my heart, and so I'm good, I'm safe.

Anna Schreyer [01:07:52] And then as far as anybody else, I don't know if I necessarily would, like, would have thought that any of my, like, Mormon classmates were demonically possessed or oppressed or anything like that. I just would have been like, you guys got it wrong. Like, it wasn't.

Anna Schreyer [01:08:10] I think there was a time period where we were kind of, like, looking under every rock for the demonic. And then that changed as we got older, and I think my parents kind of course corrected in that way, but even to this day, they would still be like, demonic's real.

John Dehlin [01:08:27] So this idea of exceptionalism, it's got its benefits. You feel confident, you feel powerful. You've got a really clear sense of identity. And I'm really relating to Mormon patriarchal blessings. Talk about the councils of heaven and kings and queens and all that sort of, you know, exceptionalism, I guess. So I. I relate to that. I think it's. It can be a very positive framework to grow up in, with some side benefits of arrogance or overconfidence and bigotry or judgmentalism of others. Right, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:09] So not benefits, then?

John Dehlin [01:09:10] Maybe benefits with side. With drawbacks.

Anna Schreyer [01:09:13] With drawbacks, yes. Yeah, for sure.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:15] Yeah. That was a lot.

Anna Schreyer [01:09:16] I mean, I remember being a little girl, and we eventually moved to Riverdale, which is in. It's like, a suburb of Ogden. So I say, I'm from Ogden. My Church is in Ogden. I am not from there necessarily, but Riverdale's very lds. Very lds.

Anna Schreyer [01:09:36] So all of our neighbors were all lds. Our next door neighbor was called as the bishop at one point. And so all of the childhood friends I had were LDs. And I remember being at a pool party at one of the neighbor's houses. And I was talking to this little girl, same age as me, and I'm talking to her about Mormons versus Christians.

Anna Schreyer [01:09:59] And I said to her, well, Christians are better than Mormons. And she was like, no, they're not. And my sister, who's older than. Like three years older than me, is across the pool. Everyone's there. I yell across the pool, hey, Lydia, aren't Christians better than Mormons? For the whole pool to hear?

Anna Schreyer [01:10:23] And she was like, oh, my gosh, oh, my gosh. Oh, my God. You know, she's mortified. We go home, and my sister, of course, tattles on me. And that was, like, a very key moment in my, like, childhood for my mom to be like, you do not say that ever. Like, that is not okay. That is not true. She was very upset, and she told me, so, you need to go apologize.

John Dehlin [01:10:50] What do you mean, not true? What did she mean, not true?

Anna Schreyer [01:10:52] Like, in the sense of. Like, it doesn't innately make us better people. Like, I think they believed, like, they're so good people. Like, we may have truth, but it doesn't make us better in the sense of goodness, if that makes sense. And so she told me I needed to go apologize. I was sobbing. I was a really sensitive kid. Still am. And so she grabbed my hand and pulled me up to the neighbor's house, and she knocked on the door, and I'm uncontrollably sobbing. And the mom answers the door, and she says, my daughter said something to one of your daughters, and she needs to apologize.

Anna Schreyer [01:11:28] And the neighbor was like, sorry, our daughter said something to your. Cause I'm the one that's sobbing. She's like, no, no, no. My daughter said something to one of your daughters. So she kind of just like, calls a random girl down. Not the girl I said it to at all.

Margi Dehlin [01:11:43] But I just.

Anna Schreyer [01:11:44] I'm sorry, you know? And from then on out, it was like, we do not. You know, we knew other, like, agey kids who would. Like, there's this one kid that his church, his house. The backyard of his house was a lds, like, meeting house. And he used to stand in the backyard, and he would say, you momos are gonna burn in hell. And he would scream, at them. Cause that's what he was taught as a little kid. And that was not my family. Like, we were not.

Anna Schreyer [01:12:13] We very strong on the differences and that we have the truth and they don't. But I guess the best way I can relate it is like, we also didn't believe in Santa Claus. We were never told that Santa was real. And it was a very strong. Like, you do not tell people that Santa's not real. Like, you don't ruin it for these other kids. So they would be like, sure, talk about Jesus. But like, don't tell people that they're at least when we were kids, because we didn't have tact. So.

Navigating Secrets and Social Life as a Young Girl

Margi Dehlin [01:12:42] Well, that's interesting because as a child, a girl, you're holding things in a way where it's like, you know things other people don't know, but don't tell them what they don't know. Right. Which makes. I mean, that's kind of sophisticated, I think, for a child brain.

John Dehlin [01:13:03] I was gonna say, in some sense, you said the quiet thing out loud.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:06] And again, I think Mormons relate to this because. Absolutely. Mormons believe that the Mormon Church is superior to all other churches, that all other baptism and marriages are illegitimate, don't count, and that in some condescending way, it's always like, I feel so sorry for the rest of the world that they don't have the truth and the lifestyle that we have. But no Mormon ever would admit to an outsider, we're better than you. They think it, they believe it, but they would never say it. But you, as a kid, you were just saying the quiet thing out loud.

Anna Schreyer [01:13:40] And it really was unspoken. It was never something that was intentionally, like, outright spoken to me at all. Like, that would not have been something that my parents would have told me. It wasn't like, hey, like, that's true. But don't. You. Don't go saying that to people. It wasn't that. It was just. That was what I am viewing around me and going, yeah, that's true.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:03] And it's kind of like, psychologically, that's what that creates. Psychologically, yeah.

Anna Schreyer [01:14:08] You know, and. And as we got older, we were very much so encouraged to, like, tell the truth about the Christianity. But I think my parents wanted us to. To gain that maturity, to gain that tax. So we weren't just like, oh, telling our teachers, like, you're, I don't know, going to hell. Like, I don't know, change.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:30] That was more like a child.

Anna Schreyer [01:14:32] I think it was a childhood, like, almost barriers. Like, we had a Little bit of safety net or, like, just don't. Okay, Just don't talk about it because it was. We were not tactful about it at all. I remember we.

Anna Schreyer [01:14:47] So we were at this private Christian school that was where we attended. And in the summer from my second grade into my third grade year, my parents had decided, like, our kids are way too sheltered like we are. At that point, they had taken a church in Ogden, and we can go back to that a little bit. But they had become pastors of a church in Ogden and Assemblies of God church. And so their pastors were going to a Christian church. All of our friends, as far as, like, not neighborhood, but friends, are all Christian. And they realize, like, oh, this is not good. Like, how are we supposed to share what we have if they're not encountering it?

Anna Schreyer [01:15:29] And so they sat us all down individually. My mom did. She pulled us, each one by one into her room when they made the decision to take us out of private school and put us into public school. And I don't know what the other kids talk was, but I will never forget mine. My mom gave me a penny with my birth year on it.

Anna Schreyer [01:15:52] Everything is very symbolic, prophetic, like, very beautiful. She gave me a penny. And she said, ana, the world may view you as just one cent, just one amongst many. Not very significant, but God views you as $0.01. S e n t. You are $0.01 into this world.

John Dehlin [01:16:13] Whoa, don't worry.

Anna Schreyer [01:16:15] And you are here for a purpose. You're going into this school, you know, with the light of the world, with the gospel, and you're. And you're there to show people what Jesus is really like. And so I still have that penny. I punched a hole in it, and it's on my keychain to this day.

Anna Schreyer [01:16:37] But it was a really significant moment going into public school because we were devastated because our whole worldview was one Christianity in the world that we understood it in. But then additionally, the school that we went to was actually quite diverse. It was in Davis county, it was in Layton, and it was quite diverse. It was probably about, if not 40%, people of color. It could have bordered on 50%. It was pretty diverse for Utah especially. And so I remember my.

Anna Schreyer [01:17:18] My coming home for my first day at public school. You know, how was it is. You know, what, What'd you learn? How'd it go? And it was like, two things. I was like, I'm the only Christian, and it is so white. That was, like, devastating to me. Like, I was like, what is this?

John Dehlin [01:17:37] Like, oh, the Private school. Was the private school 50% people of color.

Anna Schreyer [01:17:42] Correct.

John Dehlin [01:17:42] Was it Assemblies of God private school or just a Christian?

Anna Schreyer [01:17:45] Well, actually, no, you're right. Yeah. I totally forgot that church was an Assemblies of God church. So it was a church that ran a private school, but they were ag. Yeah, you're right.

John Dehlin [01:17:54] Okay. But it was more diverse. Then you go to, like. That's weird. Usually you think of private schools as being the least racially diverse.

Anna Schreyer [01:18:02] This was not the case.

John Dehlin [01:18:03] Public schools being the most racially diverse. You leave a ethnically diverse private school in Utah to go to a mostly white public school.

Anna Schreyer [01:18:13] So at the time, now it's changed quite a lot. The demographics have changed so much because people are moving in for jobs and all of that. And especially Ogden is changing because Ogden is kind of like, the next best thing to Salt Lake. If people are working in Salt Lake, they'll commute and they move to Ogden. And so it's changing a lot. But when I was young, obviously still a larger, like, Hispanic population, which is beautiful, but there was no black people whatsoever. And so that was really jarring for me to go into and for my siblings as well. We had all had the same, like, sentiment when we came home of, like, it's, like, really white. And that threw us.

John Dehlin [01:18:58] FYI, Utah county people, Davis county is the next best thing to Salt Lake City, not Utah.

Anna Schreyer [01:19:03] Oh, I apologize.

John Dehlin [01:19:04] No, I'm just.

Anna Schreyer [01:19:05] Please forgive me. Something to make up for that.

John Dehlin [01:19:09] No, I'm being silly. Okay. So what was it like going to public schools? Oh, explain why mainstream Christians don't see Mormons as Christian. I mean, we've touched on it a little bit, but Mormons get so confused by that. It's like, of course we're Christian. It's in the name of the church. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. How can somebody think we're not Christian? Plus, we're super nice. And isn't Jesus all the. About being nice?

Why Pentecostals View Mormons as Non-Christian

Anna Schreyer [01:19:33] Yeah, I would say the two biggest things, they still revolve around Jesus. The Trinity is like, the biggest thing you could say.

John Dehlin [01:19:40] So God and Jesus being separate is a problem.

Anna Schreyer [01:19:42] Oh, such a problem. Because again, then you are now polytheists because they're, you know, three gods, one in purpose. That's not cool.

John Dehlin [01:19:50] So Mormons are polytheistic. That excludes them from being Christian.

Anna Schreyer [01:19:53] And then Jesus being created, that he, in essence, was ascended into a God, that he became a God rather than just he was always divine. That's problematic. Those are the two main things.

John Dehlin [01:20:07] The third is that men can Become gods. That's kind of satanic.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:10] Yeah, similar.

Anna Schreyer [01:20:11] Yeah, similar. But those, I would say those two are like the most. Because not a lot of people, not everyone would know the planet thing, but the average person would probably have that grasp.

John Dehlin [01:20:23] What about having scripture like the Book of Mormon in addition to the Bible?

Anna Schreyer [01:20:26] Supernatural. Not cool. Especially in regards to, in the Book of Revelation. I think It's. In Revelation 22, there's a. It's the end of the book, but it talks about, you know, do not add anything to this text. Now as I look back at it, I'm like, he was just writing that one book. He didn't have any concept of the whole Bible. But anyway, we, we would say that like the Bible as a whole, like the canonical Bible, like, do not add anything unto it. Like, this is perfect the way it is. So that was really, really problematic as well.

Anna's Teenage Years and Emerging Doubts

Margi Dehlin [01:21:06] As you were growing up, how would you describe what type of girl you were? Were you largely obedient? Were you pretty compliant? Were you, you mentioned sensitive? Were you like, was this a great fit? Were there places where it wasn't a great fit? Were you all in at that point? Like, how would you describe some of those things growing up?

Anna Schreyer [01:21:32] Yeah, so always very, very sincere. Just believed it really wholeheartedly. I had like the common, like learning in Sunday school about Noah's Ark and being like, oh, wait a second. And then like Adam and Eve. That was a, that was a big thing where I was like, so we all came. So that means his kids had, they had to. That was incest even. Yes, even as a child. That still didn't, it didn't click for me, but then was quickly explained away and I was like, cool.

John Dehlin [01:22:07] How did they explain away incest of Adam?

Anna Schreyer [01:22:09] Oh, different times, John. Different times. It doesn't. That's not. God worked it out.

John Dehlin [01:22:14] It doesn't.

Anna Schreyer [01:22:14] It's just different then, don't you know? So there were lots of things that I was like, I don't really get it. But again, when your parent is telling you that, it's like, of course they know. They know better. And so I was very sincere, very devout. I don't remember actually, like, I remember like the first time I ever like prayed the sinner's prayer. I was probably like four, which is so sad.

John Dehlin [01:22:42] What is the sinners prayer?

Anna Schreyer [01:22:43] So it can depend on what kind of service you're in, but essentially it's a prayer that's like, Jesus, please forgive me of my sins. I want to accept you into my heart as Lord and Savior of My life. That's pretty much it. Like, forgive me of my sins is the biggest part. And. And like, I will follow you. And so four years old.

John Dehlin [01:23:03] Four is pretty young.

Anna Schreyer [01:23:03] Four years old. And I remember crying. I cried like, please forgive me. Like, I am. I'm messed up. Like, forgive me. I don't remember being baptized. We don't have an age, you know, requirement. Like, you have to be this old. So I was, I had to have been baptized really young because I don't remember it. I do know that it was a choice that I made. I would have asked for it. But again,

John Dehlin [01:23:29] as long as the behavioral markers are like, don't swear, don't go to our movies, don't drink tea, don't drink coffee, don't drink alcohol, don't smoke, no premarital sex. Clean cut.

Anna Schreyer [01:23:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:23:41] What are the behavioral markers of a devout ag.

Anna Schreyer [01:23:44] Yeah. So take out the tea and coffee and we're. We're right on track.

John Dehlin [01:23:49] Anything you would add?

Anna Schreyer [01:23:53] I think that we had a lot different standards for dress and appearance for sure.

John Dehlin [01:23:59] So the modesty stuff.

Anna Schreyer [01:24:00] Yeah, modesty. Like, we would still like high value for modesty, but it just looked different. I do remember that affecting me a lot being within, because at least at that point, Utah culture was Mormon culture. They were one and the same. And so though my parents were telling me one thing, I was learning something very different from being in school and things like that. And so even down to like, I remember one time I walked into the kitchen to get something and I was, I was wearing a tank top and my mom was out on the back patio and she said, hey, Anna, come out here and help me for a second. And I said, mom, I can't. And she was like, what do you.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:39] What do you mean?

Anna Schreyer [01:24:39] And I said, mom, I can't. And she was like, why? And I said, I'm wearing a tank top. And she's like. And like, it just did not. I mean, we were like the two finger rule, but like, we probably wouldn't have worn spaghetti straps. But still, like when I was growing up, LDS children were dressing as if they were already wearing garments. That was how I was raised. They all dressed. If they were wearing a cute little dress, they had capped shoulders, they all dressed like that. And it was, it was very easy to tell who was LDS and who wasn't just based on those things.

Anna Schreyer [01:25:23] Always shorts down past way further than you would assume. Probably the three finger rule above the knee would have been what they were wearing. From the time that I was quite young, I mean, I went into public school, third grade, so there was no. I don't know if this is irreverent, but better get all that out while you can, because soon you're gonna go to the temple.

John Dehlin [01:25:47] And there was no the Rum Springer stuff.

Anna Schreyer [01:25:50] It was no. It was. You dress as if you're wearing your clothes.

John Dehlin [01:25:53] So you're saying hardcore Mormon teachings around dress and modesty culture seeped in. We're more extreme.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:03] You're surrounded by peers.

Anna Schreyer [01:26:04] Yeah. And so that was also weird for me to be, like, really, really devout in my faith. Very devout. Like, I wasn't a bad kid. I wasn't. I mean, I'm sure I did some stuff, but, like, generally, I think even if you asked my parents, they would say, like, yeah, she was a really. She was a really good kid. She obeyed the rules. She didn't. I wasn't getting into anything because I cared. We can get into that in a little. A little bit. But I cared very much not to disappoint my parents. That was huge. So to be that person and then looked down upon by LDS children, I'm like, I am.

Anna Schreyer [01:26:42] What? Like, that was weird. I remember one time when I was probably sixth grade, the girls had started, like, shaving their legs. Like, it was like fifth grade. We had had our maturation class and sixth grade kind of heading into junior high here, starting in seventh grade. And I remember talking to one of my friends on the bus about it, and I said something about how I, like, nicked my thigh. And she said, well, why are you shaving your thighs? And I was like, what do you. What do you mean you shave your legs? And she said, well, my mom said that you only shave above your knee if you're having sex.

Anna Schreyer [01:27:18] I stopped shaving above my knee. Absolutely not. I'm not doing that. That wasn't a rule in my house. That wasn't something that my parents ever told me. But I was like, well, if that's what people will think of me, then I'm definitely not gonna do that. Like, sixth grade.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:37] Interesting. What I hear in that is really an openness and susceptibility to belief in general.

Anna Schreyer [01:27:46] Yes, very much so. Yeah. So there's kind of some, like, key moments for me that it really pushed me over the edge into, like, very strong belief and practice. One was I had a sibling that had a rough teenage beginning. A lot of it was, like, normal teenage stuff, and then some of it was just like, you never want that ever to happen to a teenager.

Anna Schreyer [01:28:19] And I won't go into, like, full Detail, obviously, because that's their story, not mine. But they, at one point, well, they really hurt my parents, which is hard because some of it, again, was just normal teenage stuff. But again, I get it. They believed that there were choices being made that should not have been made. And so I watched my parents fall apart during that season of my life and saw how devastated they were. My mom truly believed that she was going to die of a broken heart. Like, truly.

Anna Schreyer [01:28:54] She would just be locked away in her room all hours of the day. And I saw how much that affected her. That was very internalized of, like, I will never do that to my parents. Like, I will never. At that point, I was probably 9 or 10, and I thought, this is never gonna be me. I will do everything to keep them happy and comfortable and. And safe and protected, because I can't see this happening on my behalf. And through that, they ended up. That sibling was sent away for a time.

John Dehlin [01:29:32] That's very Mormon.

Margi Dehlin [01:29:33] There's a lot of parallel here.

Anna Schreyer [01:29:35] So they were sent away, and that really devastated me as a kid. And I remember being in our youth service during worship, they would do, like, songs and singing before the message. And I remember lying on the ground and just sobbing, begging God to bring my sibling back home because I just missed him. I was a kid, and I miss my sibling.

Anna Schreyer [01:30:01] And afterwards, the youth pastor came up to me, and he was brand new. He had just started his position at our church, and he said, man, and he said, I just so admire your hunger and your passion for the Lord. And that clicked in my head of like, oh, if I'm outwardly emotional, if I'm outwardly expressive, it doesn't really matter what is actually going on inside of me, because clearly the discernment wasn't there that, like, no, this is, like a little girl that's, like, begging for her sibling to come back home.

Anna Schreyer [01:30:39] I. That. I don't think I necessarily. It wasn't like a wheels turning, like, man, I can get away with a lot. It was just like, huh, okay. And then there was a moment similar to that a few years later at a youth conference. And I was in a environment where everyone was claiming that they were having these spiritual experiences. They were feeling the presence of God, they were seeing visions, they were getting these prophetic words and all of these things. And I'm just like, none of this is happening for me. I was like, 13, and I thought, none of this is happening for me. And I'm in.

Anna Schreyer [01:31:14] It was in Salt Lake City. I'm on my knees in the middle of a worship service, again, sobbing, being like, God, will you do something? Like, what do I have to do? Because I've done everything. I have done everything right. And like, there are kids. And it wasn't even like comparison for the sake of like being rude to other kids by any means. But I'm like, there are kids that are like, I know they're sinning and they are claiming that they're having these encounters and it's not happening for me. And so I'm sobbing during this worship service.

Anna Schreyer [01:31:46] And apparently the leader of that conference had gone up to my youth pastor and he said, hey, who is that girl in the, in the purse pants? It was like scene culture. I was wearing neon purple skinny jeans. Anyway, he said, who's that girl? And he had said, oh, that's, that's Pastor Shannon's daughter. And he said, man, the presence of God is so thick on her, I can't even walk near her. And. And he tells, he pulls me aside afterwards to tell me about this and I'm like, I was begging God for his presence. What are you talking about? But again, the cognitive dissonance that then formed was like, well, then God is still working. And I just don't understand.

John Dehlin [01:32:37] Yeah, because what I'm hearing is in these two instances, you convey you're feeling horrible. You're publicly crying because you're kind of in despair. In the first case that your siblings been sent away. And in the second, you're wanting these spiritual experiences that you're not receiving but others are. So you're crying. And then around you, all the reinforcers are, oh, you must be moved on by the Holy Spirit. So you must be super righteous and spiritual. And so what I hear is you're being conditioned to believe that just an outward expression of crying based emotion is something spirituality.

Anna Schreyer [01:33:23] Any emotion, any outward expression of emotion in a church setting is like, God is moving.

John Dehlin [01:33:30] And then you're also like, then you're having to deal with, wait a minute. But I was feeling crappy. But then you're being taught this reinterpretation.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:39] Yeah, it's like a dissonance that got

John Dehlin [01:33:41] somehow it's still God working for you.

Anna Schreyer [01:33:42] Yeah. And I never told them, like, oh, well, actually I was, you know, I just was like, that's, that's.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:48] You're like, I think I'll go with your narrative.

Anna Schreyer [01:33:49] Yeah, exactly. I'm like, I feel like crap right now. So thank you so much for telling me that. Because again, it's spiritual leaders above me that are telling me that God is moving and, and they know more than I do. So I go, oh, I just don't understand that. Like, even if I don't feel it, God is still working, he's still moving.

Anna Schreyer [01:34:09] And like, the, the narrative of, of the way I was raised was very experiential. Christianity was incredibly experiential. I am not as biblically literate as I should be. Like, I was not raised, like, we're going to go through the Bible and do these studies. And like it was you, you get to experience Christ.

Anna Schreyer [01:34:36] And a lot of that is through feeling his presence, through, you know, having dreams, through seeing visions. And I really like took that into myself to be like, okay, this is how it works. And then when it didn't, where does that leave me?

Anna Schreyer [01:34:57] And even this, like this moment changed my life literally forever. The course completely changed. But when I was about 10 or 11, we had a gentleman that is very important to my family. I still love him very much. Great man. But he is considered a prophet and he is my.

John Dehlin [01:35:23] What does profit mean in an ag context? Because for Mormons, it's the leader of the church worldwide.

Anna Schreyer [01:35:29] No. So I believe it's in Ephesians, it talks about the fivefold, like ministry. So it's like the different giftings that are given to believers. So it's pastors, teachers, evangelists, prophets and apostles. Yeah, so that is the first three that I listed very much. You can call anybody those things. If somebody's like outgoing, you're like, yeah, you're an evangelist. If somebody's good at teaching, of course you're a teacher. Somebody's like kind and good at bringing people together. You're a pastor. Like, those are easy to like throw at people and you can kind of claim those things for yourself. In the charismatic. This is leaning more towards charismatic world because charismatic is a little bit loosey goosey. There's some wiggle room within that world. Prophets and apostles are the big, the big dogs, which is similar obviously to the LDS church. But I would say that apostles are actually the number one because they're the leaders.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:30] They are.

Anna Schreyer [01:36:32] You will have a lot of times, like churches that are, they have a pastor, but then they have an apostolic leader, an apostle over them that like kind of oversees everything. So that's a little bit more,

Margi Dehlin [01:36:48] I

Anna Schreyer [01:36:48] might sound disrespectful for saying this. It's a little bit more of a, like a club. So you'd be a little bit arrogant to claim it for yourself. And I would have probably looked down upon you if you just Started saying, I'm a prophet or I'm an apostle because it's a big deal. But if you have somebody in the movement, in the charismatic world that kind of elevates you and says, this is a prophet, then that's when people start being comfortable with calling themselves prophets. But it's like a who, you know, game pretty much.

John Dehlin [01:37:25] And this is all going to be within a congregation, right?

Anna Schreyer [01:37:28] No, this is, this is worldwide. Oh, yeah, this is worldwide.

John Dehlin [01:37:32] So is there like a register for no apostles?

Anna Schreyer [01:37:35] It's loosey goosey. You could literally, you could call yourself an apostle right now and it'd be like, I mean, people could. Obviously there's. And I'm so sorry to say, but there's a lot of game playing. There's a lot of, like, if you're following the steps, fitting the rules, you would then, like, for example, like, my, my dad, I don't think would ever be comfortable with being called an apostle in the sense of, like, he would never be like, hi, I'm apostle, so? And so he would never do that. I, from my understanding of when the way I was raised, I would say he is very apostolic. It's very much apostolic. In our world is like lots of training, lots of training up leaders to go out into the world and to spread. So it's. You are a leader that creates leaders.

John Dehlin [01:38:24] A leader of leaders.

Anna Schreyer [01:38:25] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:38:25] So an apostle in your tradition is kind of a leader of leaders?

Anna Schreyer [01:38:28] Yes, correct.

John Dehlin [01:38:29] And a prophet is what?

Anna Schreyer [01:38:31] Ooh, a prophet. So everyone is prophetic. Everyone can hear the voice of God, but a prophet is allowed to prophesy things that we are not as just like regular people are allowed to say. So we would be taught. Anyone can prophesy, but do not prophesy dates, mates, or babies.

John Dehlin [01:38:52] Even prophets can't.

Anna Schreyer [01:38:54] Prophets can't. Okay, we are not allowed to. But prophets can give you way more specific. So, like, the words that you would receive from a prophet is similar to like a patriarchal blessing. Like, very weighty. I mean, I know that there are some that are kind of ambiguous, but if you were to think of like, kind of the, the serious ones of like, I see you in Ghana and you're like, okay, like, you know, there's that. That kind of weight. And it is regarded in a, in a much higher sense than just a regular person that gave you a prophetic word in the church. So, for example, like, if, if you were to go up to somebody in an LDS congregation and say, hey, I just feel like the Lord, you know, I don't Know if you would use this language.

Anna Schreyer [01:39:35] So just. But I feel like the Lord really put it on my heart to tell you that he just sees you and he loves you and, and he's, you know, on your side. And some encouraging, edifying word, that would be awesome. And you'd walk away from that and go, wow, that felt really good. But if a prophet came in and told you the same thing, I mean, you're probably like tears. The whole works. It just holds more weight.

Anna Schreyer [01:40:01] And you kind of have to have some. I guess it is similar in the sense of the LDS Church. You gotta have some mileage. You have to have walked the walk for a while for you to be considered a prophet.

John Dehlin [01:40:15] And so prophets, what are the weights? Dates. What? Mates.

Anna Schreyer [01:40:19] We are not allowed. Like, as a normal person, we wouldn't prophesy dates, mates or babies.

John Dehlin [01:40:25] So date would be a prediction that is tied to a date.

Anna Schreyer [01:40:28] Correct.

John Dehlin [01:40:28] Because you can goof that up and then be shown as a fraud.

Anna Schreyer [01:40:32] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:40:32] So be careful with dates and just the.

Anna Schreyer [01:40:34] And to help protect the person too. Because it would be like, hey, like you're kind of still learning. You probably. Maybe you misheard that. So don't change somebody's life by giving them a word about a specific date or a place they're gonna move or a spouse they're gonna meet if you don't have the validity to back that up. Whereas a prophet would kind of be like, I've got this.

John Dehlin [01:40:57] What date related thing would a prophet maybe tell a member?

Anna Schreyer [01:41:02] Now this is obviously that's not a set requirement that like when a prophet speaks to you, they're gonna prophesy a date. No, but yeah, like I see you in the next year in a new job, in a new region, in a new relationship and things like that. Yes, very much so, yes.

John Dehlin [01:41:21] It's like a patriarch telling you will serve a mission. You will.

Anna Schreyer [01:41:24] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:41:24] You know, when the time comes, you will marry the temple. It's assuming a lot of power.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:30] Yep.

Anna Schreyer [01:41:31] And so this prophet in particular, and there's lots. It's not a leader. Prophets aren't leaders. Like, I mean, they are, but. But there's a lot of them. And this man is considered my. I have to use another word that you'll probably ask questions about. But my parents. Spiritual father, so kind of just mentor, but like it's a big deal. So they consider him their spiritual father. And I remember when he first started coming to visit our church.

Anna Schreyer [01:42:02] Everyone's in awe, everyone's excited for him to be there. And he's a Very lovely man, truly. But my parents had mentioned we were out to eat. And they had mentioned to him, oh, Ana, she wants to start a animal sanctuary. Because that was what I wanted to do at the time. I don't care about it anymore. But they were, you know, just trying to talk about all their kids. And he had said, oh, yeah, that's cool. And very typical, like, adult response to a child. Like, it wasn't anything bad.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:33] Fast forward.

Anna Schreyer [01:42:34] When I am 12 years old, I go to a conference in Las Vegas. We did not grow up going on family vacations. We went to church conferences. That's what we did. Go to this church conference. There's a woman speaking there who is a missionary in Mozambique, Africa, who is like, I'm enamored with this woman. She is like. Something hit me where I was like, I'm going to do. She's talking about all of the things. Praying, praying for the sick, raising the dead, all the things. So I'm just like, this is what I'm gonna do.

Anna Schreyer [01:43:09] I remember going home. I start watching all of her sermons, all of her, you know, anything there is to this woman. I'm trying to emulate her. And I had watched a sermon, and that was recorded, and she had said, she's preaching. She stops in the middle of her sermon, and she says, there are some of you in this room. Your feet are burning. You're calling to go. You're called to go to the nations.

Anna Schreyer [01:43:34] In my head, I'm going, well, I really want to do this thing. But I never received that kind of thing. I just want to do it. And immediately that story became mine. I was not at that service. I did not have a burning in my feet. But as the years went on, when I told the story of why I wanted to be a missionary, I told that story, the preferred story, the selected. The selected lie. It was a lie that I grabbed onto. I'm 12.

Anna Schreyer [01:44:04] And so I start telling everyone, I want to be exactly like this woman. I want to go to Mozambique. So then the next time this prophet comes and I tell him, well, I. I want to be a missionary like Heidi Baker, then the eyes light up, and he has all these stories of times that he's done ministry with Heidi and that he's been out to Mozambique and, oh, let me tell you about this time and this time. So then I am now creating a bond with him that none of my siblings had. It was very like.

Anna Schreyer [01:44:38] And I hope that that's not just my interpretation, but from my understanding, I was kind of favored in that way. And he didn't live, he didn't live locally or anything like that. But anytime he came, I was the one that got the prophetic words. I was the one that got the special treatment. I was the one that, you know, was taking selfies with him and talking about him all the time like it was me.

John Dehlin [01:45:03] You were Nephi.

Margi Dehlin [01:45:05] Yes. Yeah, that's what I was thinking of for sure.

Anna Schreyer [01:45:08] Yeah, that was exactly. So that changed a lot where I just, I then kind of fell into. It's so funny because I'm so thankful in a lot of ways that I still did it. I'm glad we'll get to Mozambique. I'm glad I did it. But then it became my identity and then it became every single prophetic person that came into our church because we'd have guest speakers all the time. My parents would talk to them about the fact that I wanted to be a missionary. So then all of the prophetic words I got were about being a missionary.

Margi Dehlin [01:45:40] Right.

Anna Schreyer [01:45:41] So it just thing upon thing upon it reinforced it to a really strong degree to where now, spoiler. I'm not a missionary in Mozambique. That's a big deal to my parents because I've stepped away from my identity. That has been interesting. That has been solidified.

John Dehlin [01:46:01] Yeah, I could geek out on this all day. I'm curious how these prophets get discovered in other states or other countries and how they get funded to just randomly travel around and then go tell some young 12 year old girl, you're gonna go to Mozambique. Because I'm a prophet and I feel it like that culture, the loosey goosey aspect of it, it's very similar to what leaders or prophets or bishops or grandpa would do within Mormonism. Basically telling a kid you're gonna be a great missionary or whatever. So in that sense, that self reinforcing cultural pressure to do what coincidentally the church would benefit from you doing. That's very familiar. But this loosey goosey, random Yoda, Obi Wan Kenobi like prophet guy touring various states or countries to then influence the lives of teens. I'm trying to wrap my brain around it.

Anna Schreyer [01:46:58] And for our context, it's not a two year mission. If you become a missionary, like there are many people who give their lives. You are, you are living. So my, my, my parents assumed that if I wasn't, if I wasn't in Mozambique for the rest of my life, I would be traveling the world preaching the gospel for the rest of my life. That would be my, wow, what a commitment. So, so it's it's large. It's not just a two year, 18 months, you know, it's, it's not that it's, it's quite large. So.

John Dehlin [01:47:31] And really quickly mates. Does that mean one of these prophets might come into town and say, see that boy Billy over there? Finish that.

Anna Schreyer [01:47:37] So yeah, so there are lots of stories of people that, you know, they'd be like, hey, you know, they see a couple standing together and they'd say, hey, you know, see that guy? You know, I feel like the Lord is really impressing upon my heart that you two are to be married. And people, people will go into it with no, they just listen to it and go, God spoke and they get married. There's if I'm able to kind of give a reference for that. If any listeners want to look up, there's a girl on TikTok actually her name is Jubilee dawn and she has a really beautiful and like heart wrenching story of faith.

Anna Schreyer [01:48:17] But she was told to marry a abusive man. She didn't know he's abusive at the time, but she was given a prophetic word to marry this abusive man and she stayed with him because she thought that God wanted her to stay with him. And it was, could have been fatal.

John Dehlin [01:48:35] She Assemblies of God.

Anna Schreyer [01:48:36] No, she was in a like kind of charismatic movement.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:39] She's.

Anna Schreyer [01:48:40] Yeah, from a church that my parents have a lot of respect for.

John Dehlin [01:48:46] Got it.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:47] Yes. Okay. Yeah.

Anna Schreyer [01:48:48] So anyway, if anybody wants to look into that. And it was. Turns out to be a false prophet and he was. We'll get into it later. But yeah, proven to be false.

John Dehlin [01:48:58] Got it. Okay. Wow. That's an important part of your culture. Really quickly before we leave your adolescence, teen years. What was it like being, you know, a Pentecostal AG teenage girl in Utah in terms of friends and in dating boys, I assume Boys.

Anna Schreyer [01:49:21] Oh yeah. So I would have been way too concerned with the church to really date boys. But I had friends in our neighborhood growing up that were LDs and then very quickly as we got older did not want to be friends with me.

John Dehlin [01:49:39] Mormons. Oh yeah, the Mormon kids didn't want to be friends with me.

Margi Dehlin [01:49:41] No.

Anna Schreyer [01:49:41] And I don't think it was them themselves. But parents I think were kind of shutting the door on those relationships because it was like, ah, now you're getting to the point where some other ideas can come in and like you're not, you should not be hanging out. So that turned into me hanging out with a lot of just non faith people, period.

Anna Schreyer [01:50:01] So my childhood into teenage years was hanging out with People that were like, this sounds stupid. I would have called them this when I was younger, but I don't agree anymore. But like, the druggies, that was like my gang. I never did it. I was very serious about my faith. But I really appreciated the fact that they never claimed to be something that they weren't. So I saw a lot of LDS people that would stick their noses up. And I probably would have done the same at.

Anna Schreyer [01:50:36] Well, not necessarily, but at those groups of people for like, how dare you be having sex? How dare you be doing. Doing drugs? And all those things? And in my mind I was always like, they've never claimed it. They didn't claim that they believe this, so why does it matter if they do it? Because they don't. Like, of course, I always wish secretly, like, I hope they turn their lives around, but like, it didn't bother me. Whereas then behind closed doors, all of the LDS kids were doing the same thing.

John Dehlin [01:51:02] What were they doing?

Anna Schreyer [01:51:03] They were all having sex and they were all doing drugs and they were all drinking and they were doing these things. But then outwardly they have this perfect Molly Mormon composition to themselves that they would then judge other people for it. And that as I became a teenager, that really bothered me. Like, I was very. And I think that most of my friends from high school would agree that I was not.

Anna Schreyer [01:51:30] Of course I would mess up, but I was not a hypocrite in that sense. Like, I tried very hard to do the correct things and I didn't like, rebel. But then I also was like, very cool with. I'm sure I said stupid stuff to be like, you know, Jesus, you know, but like, I tried very hard to just be cool with them because in my mind I was like, you're not a hypocrite and I don't care. You can do that. Cause you're not being hypocritical.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:57] Right.

John Dehlin [01:51:57] Okay.

Anna Schreyer [01:51:58] I loved that about that group.

John Dehlin [01:52:01] How did it feel to have. How did Mormon parents not want their teenage kids around you?

Anna Schreyer [01:52:05] Brutal.

John Dehlin [01:52:06] Did it feel lonely? What was it like?

Anna Schreyer [01:52:08] Yeah, that was brutal. That was a lot of the neighborhood that was the main concern is like, kind of we stopped getting invited to things, specifically that. That pool party person. And that was like years later, but they stopped inviting us. And some of that could have been their kids being like, ah, we don't really like hanging out with the shriers, but. But we obviously are in the neighborhood and it's the time where everybody's outside, everyone's hanging out. And so to have not been invited over to people's houses was really see it. We would see it. I remember we had a trampoline and the neighbors with the pool, they were a little bit above us, like, they were on a hill.

Anna Schreyer [01:52:47] And we would hear them having parties. And I remember being so dramatic and being like, jumping on the tramp, being like, I'm so hot. I wish I were in a pool, you know, like, jumping and, like, saying, like, loud things, trying to be invited, like, please somebody, you know.

Anna Schreyer [01:53:02] But our neighbors, like, parents started to get pretty nasty with us, like, and there was, like, just some. And it might have been interpreted through my parents. That might have been something they believed. But I always felt like there was animosity between our LDS neighbors and us.

John Dehlin [01:53:22] What do you think that was about? Because I think Mormons would think, oh, we love everyone and we don't mind someone of another faith. Like, in a Mormon with blinders on point of view, like, okay, our kids are busy with young men's and young women, but we love everyone and they're always welcome. Like, I don't think Mormons would think of themselves as excluding others because of differing religious beliefs. Is that fair or not fair?

Anna Schreyer [01:53:47] Yeah, that's fair. To the extent that there is hope for them to convert. That's right. And so there was definitely a vibe of like, the pastor's kids are not going to convert.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:01] Right.

Anna Schreyer [01:54:01] Like, we did our thing, we tried. We were really, you know, gave it a valiant effort.

John Dehlin [01:54:07] Did they try to convert you guys?

Anna Schreyer [01:54:08] Oh, yeah. We would get like, it was funny because we would have missionaries come to the door and all of that. And as a kid, I always thought I was told the story that, like, we were, like, blacklisted. Now understanding it, I'm like, we were pastors. Like, it was a pastor's family. Like, of course they didn't come to our house anymore. Like, that was respectful. That was nice. But my parents loved when the missionaries would come because they wanted to talk, they wanted to have. They wanted to pray for people and, like, have these, like, you know, encounters with God. That was really a big deal. But yeah, it just. I think once they realized, like, that's not changing and they are just as devout in their faith and outward exactly in their faith as we are. This isn't. This isn't gonna work.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:52] It's a threat. It's viewed as. It's a perceived threat.

John Dehlin [01:54:56] Do you think the Mormons in your neighborhood saw your family as a threat?

Anna Schreyer [01:54:59] I think in some ways, yeah. And we were like, we could have been, like, ornery In a sense, like, I mean, with the Mormon missionaries coming over, we're like, my dad was. Was hype. He would be like, can I pray for you? He would, like, invite Holy Spirit in the room. He wanted them to feel the goosebumps and the tinglies, and, you know, he loved that. So I think it really was like, oh, they're not just, like, having their own thing and keeping to themselves. This is like they're on a mission as much as we are.

Margi Dehlin [01:55:28] That's right.

Anna Schreyer [01:55:29] And I think that was what was problematic.

Margi Dehlin [01:55:32] That's right.

Anna Schreyer [01:55:32] For the neighborhood.

John Dehlin [01:55:33] And then as a teenage girl, it feels. You said horrible.

Anna Schreyer [01:55:38] Oh, yeah. It was pretty brutal. I got over it fairly quickly as soon as I started making other friends. And my parents were really gracious in that to, like, allow me, because it's not like that was like, really who they wanted me hanging out with either. And they.

John Dehlin [01:55:51] Druggies.

Anna Schreyer [01:55:52] Yeah. And they knew because I would tell them, again, I'm super honest. I would be like, yeah, you know, like, I went over there and they were, like, tripping on acid, and that was pretty weird. But, you know, it's just like, that'll invite demons in, so I'll never do that. But, like, you know, it just like, I find it really admirable that my parents didn't try to shelter me from that and trusted me. Little scary, but they trusted me. And they would, you know, drop me off to hang out before I got my license, drop me off to hang out at, like, kind of rougher places, rougher neighborhoods with people that didn't have any faith structure at all.

Anna Schreyer [01:56:30] All. And they were just kind of like, okay, like, they just trusted me. And I think some of that goes to, like, I was the fourth kid, and they're kind of just like, okay, we can't be governing everything anymore. But they. They really did. I always had the impression that, like, they trusted me a lot, and I took that very seriously. So. Yeah, did. And it didn't bother me as soon as I kind of came into my own. As far as being a teenager, it was less hurtful, but.

John Dehlin [01:56:57] Well, it's one of the most common things I hear from Never Mormons growing up in Utah is strong feelings of anger or resentment at how the Mormons treated them.

Anna Schreyer [01:57:06] Growing up, the majority, yeah, it was very elementary, I would say was the most. The most brutal because I ended up even in elementary school very quickly, especially because extracurriculars were not a thing. So into high school, I still made some LDS friends because of sports and things like that.

Anna Schreyer [01:57:24] But in elementary school, no one would let their kids hang out with me. So I was hanging. I remember it was like a really big deal. I got to hang out with one of my friends and she was a Jehovah's Witness, and I was like, this is crazy. Like, we're both like, we're in it. Like we're hanging out.

Anna Schreyer [01:57:41] But all of my friends were, for the most part, except for that one girl, they did not have any faith structure. So that was hurtful to be like kind of. Or if I was friends with kids in the neighborhood that were lds, they were Jack Mormons. Didn't really.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:01] Right.

John Dehlin [01:58:02] It's weird because our kids felt excluded by the local orthodox Mormon kids when we were raising them as Mormon, but I think because their dad was a podcaster, we were a little more liberal or whatever. Our kids felt excluded as active attending Mormons would you say.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:20] Yeah. And I think in some ways it's. Anytime you are different from the majority kind of culture where conformity is really valued, sameness is seen as safety, then it becomes really easy to be seen as someone whose beliefs, like Mormonism is very much about how immigrants influenceable. You are. You know how. So then you're looking at that. And parents are very much like, we need to protect our kids from that. Right. We need to. This protection thing of our children is. Is very, very strong in Mormon culture, especially in Utah.

Anna Schreyer [01:59:03] Yeah, it was. I will give some credit to the fact that we were pro. I mean, I was that kid that said Christians are better than Mormons. You know, like, I didn't always hold my tongue in terms of differences and, you know, theological difference.

Margi Dehlin [01:59:20] And our children didn't either with the differences either oftentimes.

Anna Schreyer [01:59:24] So I think that was it. I don't think it's necessarily that I was a Christian and that they were lds. It was that I was a very strong and outwardly outspoken Christian. I think that was the. The main issue. So.

Margi Dehlin [01:59:41] Yeah, that makes sense. And I think too. Can I just say it's really. It's so easy to be a threat when really within our own meetings of Mormonism that these meetings and lessons are so scripted that if you in any way really go off script. Meaning. Well, I have a cousin that actually would, you know, I really love and is doing this thing you say is, but I really love them and there's this reason why or I have empathy for. And then everyone goes quiet. It's like if you go off script, all of a sudden everyone's like, it's so easy to be Identified as, like, wait, you're a disruptor now?

Margi Dehlin [02:00:21] You're disrupting our experience of feeling this cohesion and safety. And so I think that's kind of what you're saying in you being strong but also vocal. I think it happened sometimes with our children who, although we were in, we.

Margi Dehlin [02:00:38] We didn't always share traditional value, like the traditional beliefs of things, and nor did we ourselves. And so that. That kind of being identified as other can happen so quickly so easily.

Anna Schreyer [02:00:53] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:00:54] Yeah.

Anna Schreyer [02:00:54] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:00:56] Okay. So anything else about kind of your high school years that are really important to your, you know, aag, Pentecostal, Utah slash Mormon story?

Speaking in Tongues and Charismatic Practices

Anna Schreyer [02:01:09] Yeah, this is the last. I'll try to be really brief, but speaking in tongues for the first time.

John Dehlin [02:01:13] Yeah, tell us about that. Yeah.

Anna Schreyer [02:01:15] So 14, I go to a conference, and always going to a conference, and I am filled with, like, the most, like, amazing feelings. It was like a party church. We're having a blast. Everyone's laughing. They're kind of, like, borderline acting a little drunk. This is the vibe of, like, this charismatic Pentecostal church that I went to for this conference, and I did not speak in tongues. I come home and I tell my dad about this amazing experience, and I'm like, dad, I.

Anna Schreyer [02:01:48] I got baptized in the Holy Spirit because I'm sure of it. Like, I'm like, this is the first time I've ever felt, like, this, like, amazing feeling that everybody's talking about. And I remember I had said to him, you know, I got baptized in the Spirit. And he said, oh, well, did you. Did you speak in tongues?

Anna Schreyer [02:02:04] And I was like, no, but I got the ghost. Like, what are you talking about? Like, I have it. Like, it's. That happened. And he was like, well, you know, we believe that the initial evidence of being baptized in the Holy Spirit is speaking in tongues. And I was pretty crushed, pretty devastated, because, again, the goalpost has been moved. Like, I am in my childhood, longing for some physical feeling of his presence, of God's presence. And then when it finally I think it happens, then he's like, ah, ah, ah. Not quite. And so I remember going into my room and I put on this cd, specifically one song that had a lot of speaking in tongues, singing in tongues on it.

Anna Schreyer [02:02:48] And I have hardwood floors, and I lay out on my floor, head down, and I am praying, asking God. And, like, a typical thing in, like, a Pentecostal church would be like, just open your. Open your mouth, and, like, he'll fill it with the words that you're supposed to say, like, It'll just happen. And so I'm just praying, like, please, please, please, I need to speak in tongues. Because I'm pretty sure you did this, but now I don't think you did. And so I'm praying and what ends up happening is like, I'm just like slowly copying what's in the song. I'm just getting that groove, that vibe and I start kind of practicing it.

Anna Schreyer [02:03:26] I'm in my room and emerge, you know, later. And within that week I told my dad, well, you know, I'm speaking in tongues now. And quite honestly, like, the tongues that I received, they never really changed, barely expanded. Like, I might have picked up a couple like noises from other people's tongues that I would hear, but they never really expanded. And then it is interesting though, I will call this out because a lot of people are like, why are you doing, like, why do people speak in tongues and services? What is it about it? And so in most Pentecostal churches, there will be like a moment in worship or in the service where they say, if you have a heavenly language, go ahead and speak out in your heavenly language.

Anna Schreyer [02:04:14] And so you're taught to kind of command, call that, that language that you learned quotation marks. So you start doing that. And then because it's in certain settings, it's usually like a really emotional part of the service or really built up musically. We have like a full band, very loud, exuberant, you know, and so built up parts. Those are the times when you're supposed to speak in tongues because it's loud and it's, it's, you know. And so I realized this, like years later I went to a concert

Margi Dehlin [02:04:54] for

Anna Schreyer [02:04:54] one of my friends that was playing in a sludge death metal band. A satanic sludge death metal band. I'm still a believer. Literally. I was going the night before I had to preach at my parents church. But I'm like, gotta support the homies. So I showed up and I was feeling it. I was like, this is awesome. This, you know, and the music starts to build. It's this really vampy kind of part of the song. And I start speaking in tongues. And I went, whoa. And it was not like, oh, the Holy Spirit is interceding in this satanic moment. It wasn't that it was literally habitual of like, this is the type of feeling and moment I am supposed to do this.

Anna Schreyer [02:05:36] And so it really does become habit. And there is something to a meditative state that you kind of go in if you're speaking in tongues for a Long time. So there's kind of like, will I ever speak in tongues again? No, but there's some benefit there of, like, kind of disconnecting a little bit. It is a meditative state that your brain goes into. They did this really interesting. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:06:00] It's almost like chanting in yoga. When you add like an oh, yes or a right, yes, where there's a sound and it.

Anna Schreyer [02:06:07] And it doesn't engage anything in your brain that has to really think that's right, you know, so there's. There's something really, I think, impactful about that, especially in like, a solidifying beliefs and things and what you're hearing in a service. For you to kind of go into this or to be meditating on, like, Jesus while you're speaking in tongues, it can really solidify some things.

John Dehlin [02:06:32] Can I back up and ask just a quick kind of understanding question? So I would guess that there'd be pressure for children to speak in tongues when they're five or six or eight. Because if it's happening every church service and they're attending every week. So what I'm. But I'm also. It's sounding like it's kind of this rite of passage where, you know, at whatever is the right time, you're doing it, and then your parents are like, good job. Kind of like in the Mormon equivalent of like, getting the priesthood or going on a mission or that sort of thing. So are children discouraged from doing it?

Anna Schreyer [02:07:08] No, Very encouraged. From the time I was, like, quite young, we were encouraged to speak in tongues. It was like the constant. Anytime you had a conference or a meeting, somebody's gonna be like, coming up to pray for you to be like, yeah, like, just. Just open your mouth. And he's. From the time I was very young, I think there's more of an emphasis on it as you become a teenager, because it's kind of like, ah, you're getting close, like being sent out of the house. You better get this under your belt. I think that maybe, and I don't mean to sound so, like, rigid about

John Dehlin [02:07:44] it, but a Pentecostal parent's gonna want their kid to speak in tongues by the time they graduate from high school?

Anna Schreyer [02:07:50] I would say yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:51] And what kept you as a kid from doing it, do you think?

Anna Schreyer [02:07:57] A lot of the spiritual stuff really freaked me out. A lot of the services. Seeing people, like, fall out in the spirit freaked me out. People shaking. So, yeah, in our church services, we believe that, like, God's presence is so strong sometimes that our finite bodies cannot contain it. Or hold it or whatever. And so people will physically fall over.

Anna Schreyer [02:08:26] Sometimes it's when someone prays for them, sometimes it's just in the middle of nothing. They'll just fall over. People are yelling, people are shaking, they're rolling on the ground. That always really freaked me out, especially knowing that I wasn't even feeling the slightest bit anything. So then I was like, that seems like a lot to ask for me to like. And I was really embarrassed because I was a pastor's kid, so everyone was watching me all the time.

Anna Schreyer [02:08:54] It's like bishop's kid to the max. Because it's a life. Like, that's my dad's career. That's what he does. So my entire childhood I was watched. And so I. I was always really embarrassed and would literally ask God not to do it. Like, I was like, please don't, please don't, please don't do that. Like, don't let me look like them. Because I knew everyone would be watching and it would be a big deal.

Margi Dehlin [02:09:14] That's right.

Anna Schreyer [02:09:15] And so that was really. Yeah. So I didn't want it for a long time. But then when I realized, like, this is kind of what you gotta. If you want to be baptized in the spirit, this is what you gotta have.

John Dehlin [02:09:24] I'm really relating to you, not to you being told you would have certain spiritual experiences and then you not. You know, I've told a million times my story of reading the Book of Mormon, praying about it and then not getting the answer. Sometimes it's like the honest people are punished, whereas the people that are just willing to make whatever experience up are rewarded. Is that.

Anna Schreyer [02:09:46] Yeah, I fell into line very quickly, though. So you're a little bit probably. I don't want to say better, but you probably held your ground longer than I did. I. Very quickly, after that 14 moment where I start speaking in tongues, then I'm like, you're in full sense. This is what you do. And kind of that understanding of like what we talked about earlier, of like, this outward expression is proving what God is doing inside. And the idea that, like, even if I don't understand it, God is still moving. So I was just like, well, I guess this is how everybody is like. I guess this is just how it works. Like, if I just start speaking in tongues and eventually God will just bless it.

John Dehlin [02:10:26] No, that's just like. It's just like a testimony is gained by bearing it. We're all taught that.

Margi Dehlin [02:10:32] And the testimony, I mean, just speaking parallels. A testimony is similar in function to like speaking in Tongues in some ways, right? In that the congregation watches you, you craft it, you're up there. Emotion or some type of will enhance it and make it seem it's more spiritual. You are viewed differently if you're. How often you do it and the quality of it.

Anna Schreyer [02:10:56] And it's interesting because similarly to like the LDS church, like, they're telling people, like, oh, go and go and do it and then it'll come. But then once you do it, because when you were in the seat watching the person, you believed them. You believed that they were telling the truth. So then once you get up there, you kind of have this, like, will, I said it. So now I can't go back on it because I said it. So you just kind of have to bear down in it from there on out because you're like, I believed that the person was telling the truth and still believe that that person was telling the truth. I'm the fraud. I'm the one that doesn't. That doesn't actually, you know, feel it or get it or, you know, it

John Dehlin [02:11:38] feels like a form of self delusion or self gaslighting.

Anna Schreyer [02:11:42] 100%.

John Dehlin [02:11:43] I didn't mean to put that on you.

Anna Schreyer [02:11:45] No, that's. That's exactly my feelings. It's like it, it. I could in the moment be like, yes, this is what God is doing, and then go home and be like, head hits the pillow of like, God, this can't be it. This can't be what everybody else. And then you don't feel. You don't feel like everyone else is lying. You feel like you're the only one that's lying.

Margi Dehlin [02:12:12] You're the only.

John Dehlin [02:12:12] Probably many of them are doing the same thing.

Margi Dehlin [02:12:14] You're the imposter.

Anna Schreyer [02:12:15] Yep, I am the imposter. Everyone else is actually experiencing this and I'm. And I can justify it in the moment to be a part of the gang, a part of the crew, and to, you know, add to this service. But when my head hits the pillow, like, surely I'm the only one that's doing this.

John Dehlin [02:12:34] Would it be too exploitative or insensitive or disrespectful to ask you to kind of. Absolutely.

Anna Schreyer [02:12:42] I will never do it. Are you gonna ask me to speak in tongues?

John Dehlin [02:12:45] No. No. I was checking in with you about whether that would be inappropriate or offensive.

Anna Schreyer [02:12:49] I don't think it would be inappropriate. It would. Like, I'm conditioned so much that I would feel so.

Margi Dehlin [02:12:55] Yeah.

Anna Schreyer [02:12:56] Especially in a public, like, setting to do that. Because at the same time, I've been conditioned so much to believe that somebody out there has an actual heavenly language. I don't really believe that at all. But, like, deep down, you know, that's so. I wouldn't. I wouldn't do it. It would. It would. That would feel.

John Dehlin [02:13:16] That's good. No, that's important for us to know boundaries.

Anna Schreyer [02:13:20] Yeah, no, it's totally fine. It's not an inappropriate question by any means. It's just that would. I would feel.

Margi Dehlin [02:13:26] Yeah. The other thing I was going to say is this makes so much sense. And it's also a parallel to Mormonism. You know, when you have that experience of speaking in tongues and, you know, on some level, you're acknowledging you're not really feeling it the way you think other people are feeling it. But also all that conditioning up to this point, all the things that you've shared around approval, specialness, right. About you sharing about your mission, it kind of puts you on a track. And then your dad being a leader, so. So extra people are watching you that, you know, you have this buildup of

Margi Dehlin [02:14:02] feeling valued as a child, feeling special and approved of by leaders or people who are a little bit, you know, higher up, and then that I can see all these things kind of come together to create this lockdown from that point on where you're, like, feeling, at least for that moment, going into your. Maybe your mission or whatever. This. Like, I'm locked in. I'm locked into whatever this is. Oh, and this sibling.

Anna Schreyer [02:14:34] Yes. I was about to say the siblings.

Margi Dehlin [02:14:36] This idea of, like, you feeling now responsible for taking care of your parents, experience of parenting larger. You know what I mean? Their heartbreak, their. You write that all that together just feels like this. It just makes all the sense in the world where you end up.

Anna Schreyer [02:14:55] And it definitely was amplified by the fact that I was the sibling that kind of went full force as a child and teenager. My other siblings had, like, moments that, like, ebbed and flowed. They would kind of be in it and then out, and not necessarily in regards to faith, but just the charismatic expression. And I definitely similar to, like, the prophet that gave me kind of some extra attention. I felt like I was. And I hope it doesn't sound bad, I felt like I was the favorite, for sure.

Margi Dehlin [02:15:31] Yes.

Anna Schreyer [02:15:32] And I don't know if my siblings felt the same way. And I feel really, like, bad about it now, where I'm like, I was kind of. No, I wasn't kind of. I was lying. And yet I was gaining more favor than you guys were because you were being honest and in your mind, were

John Dehlin [02:15:50] you lying or had you successfully deluded yourself that you weren't lying? And when you say lying, you mean speaking in tongues, right?

Anna Schreyer [02:15:56] Yeah, everything. Speaking in tongues. The story of me burning in the feet, you know, wanting to go to Mozambique, I don't think at that point. No, it would take a lot for me to get there, to remember. Like, oh, yeah, you. The speaking in tongues.

Margi Dehlin [02:16:11] Yes.

Anna Schreyer [02:16:11] I knew it was a little bit for a long time. I was like, this isn't real. But the other stuff, it was, it became like my lore. So I didn't consciously know that I was lying at that point. But yeah, I think I look back at it now and go, wow. Like, they were just really honest about where they were at and I wasn't.

Margi Dehlin [02:16:33] And.

John Dehlin [02:16:34] Yeah, because there's plenty of people who have false memories that genuinely believe the false memories.

Anna Schreyer [02:16:42] Oh, I did, I did. And it took a lot, even moving, transitioning out of belief to be like, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:16:50] To recognize.

Anna Schreyer [02:16:51] I remember. I remember making that up. Or I remember. And there's a lot of stuff that's like, pretty recent that I knew I made up. But again, in that context, like, there's such a weight to like, if you're not experiencing it, you don't have. You don't have a place and you don't have a say in what's happening.

Margi Dehlin [02:17:12] Yeah.

Anna Schreyer [02:17:13] And I was very leadership minded, very like. So it was like, I have to have these things in order to succeed in this setting. And of course I think everybody's lying. Like, I have a lot of shame for lying about a lot of things. Encounters, dreams, all kinds of stuff that I just made up to feel like I had some validity. Like, it's like if you don't have the experience, it doesn't matter how devout you are. Like God, God hasn't picked you, he didn't choose you. And I'm being told that I'm gonna stand in front of kings and presidents someday.

Margi Dehlin [02:17:51] Right.

Anna Schreyer [02:17:52] God has to choose me and people have to believe that he chose me.

Margi Dehlin [02:17:57] Right. It reminds me of Stephen Hassan a little bit and some of his work on high demand religions.

John Dehlin [02:18:05] Oh, the identity.

Margi Dehlin [02:18:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:18:07] Assuming the cult identity.

Margi Dehlin [02:18:08] The cult identity and how oftentimes he describes it as a dissociative state where you're actually not connected to yourself over time and that allows you to assume these traits or this conditioning that creates this sense of false self. It's the only self you know, though.

Anna Schreyer [02:18:30] Yeah. And you don't know the difference. That's been my. My realization thou jumping too far ahead to be Like, I've never been myself. Ever.

John Dehlin [02:18:41] Yeah, ever. Yeah. So, okay, so as you get to like graduate from high school years, what future? Let's say you. If I could have stopped you at 18, you're graduating from high school and I would say paint for me a picture, high level of what the next 60 years would be like. What would you have said at 18?

Aspirations at Eighteen and the Road to Mozambique

Anna Schreyer [02:19:02] Yeah, I am going to be a missionary in Mozambique. I'm going to give my life to that. And then it would have turned into very quickly after that. So, like still 18, that I am meant to preach all over the world. That's it.

John Dehlin [02:19:20] So missionary in Mozambique, but then world representative of the ag.

Anna Schreyer [02:19:25] So the. Not the ag. I will say that my parents are like, they love the assemblies, but the benefit of the assemblies being a fellowship is that it can kind of be loosely held so they branch out into a lot of. They're more of a feel of a non denominational church than an Assemblies of God church. So that's interesting. And again, that's allowed within the assemblies. Like, that's totally fine because my dad. Dad follows the rules anyway, so it wouldn't have been an assemblies. I, I kind of never had like a true, like, yeah, I'm AG through and through. It was like I'm, I'm charismatic through and through. Like I'm woo woo.

Margi Dehlin [02:20:02] Right.

Anna Schreyer [02:20:03] Weird. Kind of kooky. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:20:05] Were your parents, did you feel by 18, your parents were super proud of you, like you were the success, the biggest success of their four children?

Anna Schreyer [02:20:13] Yes. So I graduated when I was 16.

Margi Dehlin [02:20:15] Whoa.

John Dehlin [02:20:15] From high school school?

Margi Dehlin [02:20:16] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:20:16] Which high school?

Anna Schreyer [02:20:18] I graduated from Bonneville High School.

John Dehlin [02:20:19] Okay.

Anna Schreyer [02:20:20] So I went. All of my schooling was in the Terrace. I graduated at 16 and so my parents. And with the intention of going to Africa. Like, I was like, I'm gonna go to Africa. Turns out the mission school that I wanted to attend was like, we're not gonna let a 17 year old come to our mission school.

John Dehlin [02:20:38] So you didn't want to go to Weber or U of, uh, State?

Anna Schreyer [02:20:41] No, I never wanted to go. I never wanted to go to a university that was not. It was always a ministry school of some kind.

John Dehlin [02:20:47] For those who don't know, Weber State University is a major university in Ogden area.

Margi Dehlin [02:20:52] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:20:52] And yeah. Yeah. So you didn't want to go to college?

Anna Schreyer [02:20:54] My brother just graduated from Weber State, so. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:20:57] You didn't want to go to college?

Anna Schreyer [02:20:58] No, I wanted to do a ministry school. So when I graduated at 16, I decided, well, they're not going to let me go to this mission school.

John Dehlin [02:21:05] Because you're too young.

Anna Schreyer [02:21:06] Because I'm too young. Because I graduated and then turned 17 quickly after. So then I decided, well, I'll go do an internship, a ministry school for a year until I turn 18, and then I'll go and do the school. So at 17, I moved to Vegas.

John Dehlin [02:21:22] Whoa.

Anna Schreyer [02:21:23] Yep. So, like, never had a job, never had anything, and I move to Vegas. My parents signed for the apartment that I'm living in, and I live in an apartment with all teenagers. Like, we're all 17 to 19 oh. Four of us just. We all go to the church.

John Dehlin [02:21:40] All girls.

Anna Schreyer [02:21:41] Yep. We all go to the church, and we. I. It is a lot. That's a lot. And so I have all these, like, I have to do the best I can. I have to. You know, I carried my name, the Schreyer name, because my parents are fairly well known in a lot of circles,

John Dehlin [02:22:01] not just Utah, outside of Utah.

Anna Schreyer [02:22:03] Correct.

John Dehlin [02:22:04] How would people get to know your parents? Through YouTube or what?

Anna Schreyer [02:22:07] No, they. They travel a lot, and they invite a lot of speakers from different, like, charismatic churches, and so then those speakers know them, and then they end up inviting them to their churches. And so my parents still, to this day, like, are.

Margi Dehlin [02:22:19] Are.

Anna Schreyer [02:22:20] They travel all over the world like, oh, wow.

Margi Dehlin [02:22:23] Constantly.

John Dehlin [02:22:24] So they're kind of what you wanted to be, basically. Can a woman be a prophet or a. Yeah. Or an apostle?

Anna Schreyer [02:22:30] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:22:31] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [02:22:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:22:32] So it's not just men that could be prophets and apostles.

Anna Schreyer [02:22:34] Yeah. So, yeah. Pentecostalism has kind of always just been really chill on women. There's some churches, obviously, that don't lean that way, but for the most part.

John Dehlin [02:22:44] And would you say your parents are viewed as prophets by the global movement?

Anna Schreyer [02:22:49] No, I would. I would say, like I said earlier, I think that my. My dad leans more apostolic. I would say that my mom. Mom is more prophetic. But they would never.

John Dehlin [02:22:59] No, no. I'm asking what other people think.

Anna Schreyer [02:23:02] I think other people would think that. Yes.

John Dehlin [02:23:03] Okay.

Anna Schreyer [02:23:04] Yeah, very much so.

John Dehlin [02:23:04] Okay. That's what I was asking.

Anna Schreyer [02:23:06] So they're like, there's, like, big dogs in the charismatic world that, like, travel. I'm like, I don't know if it's appropriate to use names or not. If anybody would know. But, like, there's, like, Bill Johnson and Chris Valatin and anybody who knows, like, charismatic, they'll know these names or like, just lots of really kind of heavy hitters that people know about. And my parents are, like, friends with those people, but not at the same level as those people.

John Dehlin [02:23:34] So Your parents are kind of second tier.

Anna Schreyer [02:23:36] Yeah, that's kind of sad to say, but.

Margi Dehlin [02:23:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:23:38] No, no, that's great.

Anna Schreyer [02:23:39] No, no, no, I say it's sad to say because I'm like, man, I've watched them dedicate everything to this. And then to, like, see them kind of not get that recognition, it's kind of static.

Margi Dehlin [02:23:50] It is. It's status like a bishop or young men's president versus.

Anna Schreyer [02:23:57] Yeah. I walked into ministry school and mission school knowing that I was kind of charismatic royalty in a way, because I knew all these people. I'd rubbed elbows with them. I'd, you know, sat in their living rooms. I traveled to their churches. Like, I was very exposed to this entire charismatic movement. And so I. I knew, one, that I was privileged to have had that experience. But two, that, like, my name really mattered and, like, I needed to. And I wasn't somebody that was ashamed of my name. I was, like, very proud. Like, all of my siblings went to ministry school and.

John Dehlin [02:24:38] All of them.

Anna Schreyer [02:24:39] All of them, Yep. They all went to ministry school in different places. But, yeah. And one of my siblings, they had said that, like, they didn't want anybody to know that they were a shrier. Like, that was when they went away. They were like, I'm not telling anybody who I am. I'm not. And I was like, hey, I'm Shannon Shrier's daughter. Like, I was into it. I loved. I loved being a shrier. I love being like, I love my dad. I love my mom. So I was. I was very, like, into that. So, yeah, I felt the weight of that when I went into this ministry school. And then I'm getting my first job. I'm creating my own schedule for the first time. Like, abiding by my own schedule with no parents. That's crazy.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:19] Adulting.

Anna Schreyer [02:25:20] I'm adulting. And to a light degree, because I'm still in a church setting where they're telling me what to do.

John Dehlin [02:25:27] This feels like a Mormon mission. Yes.

Anna Schreyer [02:25:29] Yeah, in a way. And I went to Vegas, of all places. So it's like, really? And we had grown up visiting that church a lot, so it wasn't, like, so unfamiliar. And for part of it, my brother did live in Vegas, so I had a little bit of a cushion. But I get handed the keys to the Porsche, and I'm just trying my best not to ding it. I'm like, please, please don't mess this up. And I, of course, meet someone and mess it up. Wait, you meet a boy?

Margi Dehlin [02:25:58] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:25:58] Oh, wait, what was your job?

Anna Schreyer [02:26:01] I Worked as a janitor at the church.

John Dehlin [02:26:03] Okay.

Anna Schreyer [02:26:03] We were the Levites. We wore little shirts that said Levite and we would, you know, clean the pastor's toilet and stuff. So. Yeah. But I met a guy that was going to the same ministry school and ended up crossing the line physically. Not good at this point. I've done nothing in my life. Not a thing. I've been very sincere with all of it.

Sexual Purity Culture and a Harmful Interview

John Dehlin [02:26:33] So let me ask you this. In Mormonism, we often say that sexual transgression before marriage is. Is taught as being a sin next to murder. How serious is it in. And I'm not assuming you had sex,

Anna Schreyer [02:26:47] but like, no, you're fine. I think a lot of it had to do with like the value of. Of your similar. The licked cupcake. That kind of deal.

Margi Dehlin [02:26:56] Purity.

Anna Schreyer [02:26:57] Purity. But wouldn't have necessarily been like, next to murder. And also like evangelicalism, like, we got a lot of grace for a lot of things. So like, there can be shame and all of that. But then like, depending on who you want to like convert into your church, you're like, that's fine. We forgive you. Jesus forgives you. It's fine.

John Dehlin [02:27:17] So I was a sinner too, you know, that kind of thing.

Anna Schreyer [02:27:19] Yeah. So it wasn't viewed next to murder by any means. But it's interesting. I grew up in Utah. Obviously I didn't have like the greatest sex education. Shocking.

John Dehlin [02:27:34] You had maturation by the equivalent of. Who's the young men's president? Brad. What's his name anyway?

Anna Schreyer [02:27:42] Are you talking about Brad Wilcox?

John Dehlin [02:27:43] Brad Wilcox does maturation lessons for like middle school or high schoolers in public schools.

Anna Schreyer [02:27:49] Yeah. And I was actually picked up early from my maturation class, like. Cause my parents did not want us to like have that. So it was like we got the like deodorant and then my dad was like, time to go. Like, he just like hit the road. You know, he did not want us like seeing anything. So. And then my parents like, were really. They talked about sex a lot, but. But in a. Not specifics of how anything works. Just like the value of it and that it is beautiful and it is important. They were really big on that. Like, it is really beautiful, but like God made it for a husband and a wife. And so it's this, you know, and there was. And part of that prophetic culture that I grew up in, a lot of the prophetic words that I received were on my purity.

Margi Dehlin [02:28:36] Yeah.

Anna Schreyer [02:28:36] But I was very called out in that. It was not something like a patriarchal blessing where like every young Woman, of course, is gonna hear about their purity and how great it is for their husband. So it was for you. This was very, like, I was called out a lot, stood up in a lot of services and publicly told, you know, I see the holiness of God on you, and you have a purity that's, like, inspiring to others. I was very. So it became. Became very, like, a big deal for me.

Anna Schreyer [02:29:06] And so at the time, we go too far. And in my mind, I kind of knew from, like, movies, like, okay, we didn't necessarily have sex, but in my mind, I was like, we had sex. Purity. It didn't matter to me. I was like, we had sex. We did. And even still to this day, like, my parents don't know that I told them I had sex.

Anna Schreyer [02:29:30] Like, I didn't tell them the specifics of what happened, which in that context, it didn't matter in the eyes of the church. It was like, bad period. But it's interesting now, as an adult, to be like, that didn't.

Margi Dehlin [02:29:43] Right.

Anna Schreyer [02:29:43] I didn't really count, but okay.

Margi Dehlin [02:29:46] So kind of more binary or as opposed to, like, this idea of, you know, sexual relations that is quite nuanced and varied.

Anna Schreyer [02:29:56] Yeah, for sure. And just, like, in terms of, like, experience, I guess I wouldn't. I. I would have told people, like, yeah, like, I'm. I'm not a virgin. When it's like, ah. Like. And now as I'm older, I'm like, it's kind of embarrassing that I said that, but whatever. But I was very ashamed. And then I.

Anna Schreyer [02:30:16] Within about a week of that experience happening, broke down, called my parents, sobbing, told them I had sex. I'm so sorry. This is, you know, all these things. It was terrible. I went to the. To the guy's house, broke up with him. That's what you're supposed to do. Do not stay with him, because that's tempting. And so broke up with him. He was devastated. He ended up telling our leaders of the ministry school, which I was not planning on doing. Not because I was trying to hide it, but I was just like. I told my parents. They're kind of my spiritual authority, so why would I tell anybody else?

Anna Schreyer [02:30:49] He told them I was working as a janitor at the church, and all of a sudden I get yanked into a room while I'm mopping by one of the leaders of the school. And she sits me down with the main leader over the whole school. And he is 27 at this time. I'm 17.

Anna Schreyer [02:31:09] And I get asked a myriad of horribly sexually explicit questions about this event so super similar to unfortunately a lot of LDS bishop interviews, but it was quite graphic, way too many details. Yeah. And at the time, because I had never done anything that sounds stupid, of course I had like sinned, but like no big ones at all. I had no, I didn't even, I didn't swear nothing. And so I didn't know what discipline or punishment or anything like that looked like because I had never experienced it. So I think this is normal and I'm traumatized, but I, I internalize the trauma. The, the trauma is like, me, I did it, it's my fault.

Anna Schreyer [02:32:00] And so that turns into whole thing, you know, of course everybody's like, some people are like, stiff arm him, never talk to him again. Some people are like, well, in the eyes of God, you're now married, so you might as well get married. You know, like just like a varying, like the whole. It was a megachurch, it was like 5,000 people. And a ton of the staff found out about it all new all were like inviting me over to their house to talk to me about like next steps. What do I do?

John Dehlin [02:32:28] And So I had 18 or 17.

Anna Schreyer [02:32:31] 17. I was 17. Yeah, I was 17. And so,

Margi Dehlin [02:32:38] and then no privacy either. It's just so many people know, none.

Anna Schreyer [02:32:43] And it's interesting because my parents were so gracious about it and so kind. Like, I remember like calling my mom and when I told her, she was like, I'm. She said, when did that happen? And I said, it's about a week ago. And she said, man, I'm so sorry you had to carry that for so long by yourself. Like the right answer, you know. And then I attack. My dad texted me to say he was praying for me because I didn't tell him on the phone. And I text him back and I said, dad, I'm so sorry that I broke your heart. Like, I'm so sorry. Because I knew how much it meant to him for his daughters to like stay pure or whatever. And. Or at least that's what I had gathered from my life.

John Dehlin [02:33:22] Especially after that one sibling you had broke your parents heart, right? Yeah.

Anna Schreyer [02:33:25] And so then I am, I'm texting him, I'm so sorry I broke your heart. And he texted me back and he said, you know, you didn't break our hearts. We're heartbroken for you. Like, we're so sorry. And it's just like, so it's not

John Dehlin [02:33:41] like you didn't hurt us, you hurt yourself.

Anna Schreyer [02:33:43] But it was kind. It was. So I took it as so kind. It Was not. It wasn't. It wasn't. No, not at all. There was no condescension in it at all. It was so like healing for me. So to have had that initially followed by right.

Margi Dehlin [02:34:00] So did you note the difference?

Anna Schreyer [02:34:01] Oh, of course.

Margi Dehlin [02:34:02] So parents versus kind of this church, this system.

John Dehlin [02:34:06] Margi and I are watching Game of Thrones right now and season six has the shame scene. If any of you have seen Game of Thrones, have you seen it?

Anna Schreyer [02:34:14] I haven't. It wouldn't have been.

John Dehlin [02:34:16] There's a woman who gets shamed and she literally has to walk down the town square road naked while everybody yells, scream, you know, shame at her, and they're throwing feces at her as she's taking the shame walk. Yeah, I guess I'm not trying to project that onto you as metaphorically what you experienced.

Anna Schreyer [02:34:35] No, it really did feel like that. And especially again, the Shrier name. I went into that church and they had like really welcomed me in. It's a mega church. They ended up having me. I was a worship leader at 17. They had me lead worship for this mega church. Like, big deal. I was given like a lot of like responsibility. And so then to have, have messed it up, in my view at the time, it was devastating. And in their view, like they, they immediately. That was the other thing that was so shocking to me is they pulled me off of the worship team and that was not something that I was accustomed to because my parents are very like, if you've asked for forgiveness, you're forgiven.

Anna Schreyer [02:35:18] They did not do the whole you have to be shamed punishment. They were discipline, not punishment. Like they were like. So for me to have experienced that and kind of just being like this is devastating. This is not what I thought it was. And then to continue to let me do, let me do other jobs behind the scenes stuff. I worked still a ton for the church, but nothing that was on a platform. So I was like, oh, okay, like I'm too ugly and broken to be seen by everyone.

Margi Dehlin [02:35:53] You'll get no visibility.

Anna Schreyer [02:35:54] But you can do all the work. But you can do all the work for us. And that was super shocking. And it just didn't make sense to me because even my parents had one of my really good friends, she ended up getting pregnant like outside of marriage. And they, she was a worship leader at my parents church and she went to them and just said, I'm so sorry, I need to step down. And da, da. And they said, okay, well hold on a second. Like, like, are you, are you sorry? And she was like, yeah, of course, you know, and they said, well, like, are you done.

Anna Schreyer [02:36:23] Like, are you done living this way? And they. Yeah, they said, okay, well, then you don't have to step down. If you don't. If you want to. If you're. If you. If that's not something you're comfortable with, then that's fine. But. So we had a pregnant teenager leading worship at our church, and that was, like, unwed pregnant. You know, that was the church that I grew up in. So to experience that was wild. But I didn't realize that being pulled into that classroom was any form of abuse until years later, listening. You had done a series home Mormon stories helped you. Yes, it did. Yeah.

Anna Schreyer [02:37:02] You had done a series after enduring. It was after Sam Young's excommunication, but kind of during that. That time period of, like, protect. Well, at the time, protect LDS children. But you had done a series where you were interviewing people about their bishops interviews. And as soon as I heard it and you started calling out like you were underage with a grown man. You were by yourself. I was like, oh, my gosh. And I had never told my parents that that happened. I went to my parents and I was like, hey, I think this was bad. And they were so devastated.

John Dehlin [02:37:41] That was years later.

Margi Dehlin [02:37:42] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:37:42] Okay.

Anna Schreyer [02:37:43] They were so devastated. And they. They. I think my dad. I don't know for sure. I think he did call that pastor and rip him. I think. I can't imagine him not, because it's just who he is. I think he really had some words, but he. My mom was like, you didn't tell us that. And. Cause a lot of it. I had stopped going to church after. After those meetings and had stopped going to school because I was just so ashamed because I didn't want to go and be there with everybody. And I was really, really depressed. And my mom called me and was like, hey, I heard you're not going to church.

Anna Schreyer [02:38:16] I heard. And she didn't know that all this stuff had happened. And I said, mom, I just can't do it. I can't be with these people. And she said, well, baby, you don't know how strong you are until you do it. Now flash forward to this conversation where I tell her what happened. And she's like, I would have never.

Anna Schreyer [02:38:38] I would have never made you go back. Like, I had no idea. So that was, like, a tough one for all of us to kind of swallow for sure.

Margi Dehlin [02:38:47] I do love, though, the fact that you're having these conversations of reckoning for things that happen and filling in the blank spaces. Because then you get to have the healing conversation with your parents. Sometimes that's what we have. Sometimes we don't get that, first of all, because our parents don't show up in these loving ways. Right. But for you, they did. And so you got to hear what they would have said or what they would.

Anna Schreyer [02:39:15] What they regretted or.

Margi Dehlin [02:39:17] Which I do think is a lovely. It says a lot about your relationship with them in this way that you've had some of these uncomfortable conversations. Vulnerable. Yeah.

Anna Schreyer [02:39:29] Yeah. For sure.

Margi Dehlin [02:39:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:39:31] Anyway, well, I'm sorry that happened. And it's all too familiar.

Anna Schreyer [02:39:35] All too familiar.

John Dehlin [02:39:36] Different stadium, same rodeo.

Margi Dehlin [02:39:38] You know what I mean?

Anna Schreyer [02:39:38] Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [02:39:40] Okay. Did I get this right, that you said you've been listening to Mormon stories about 10 years?

Margi Dehlin [02:39:45] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:39:45] So if you're 28 now.

Anna Schreyer [02:39:48] Yeah, I did 20 this year.

John Dehlin [02:39:49] You would have started listening to Mormon stories around the same time.

Anna Schreyer [02:39:53] So it would have been shortly after. Literally right after this. So I came back to Utah.

John Dehlin [02:40:01] You left Vegas after the parade? Came back.

Anna Schreyer [02:40:03] Well, yeah. Finished the school year. Because that's what I was supposed to do. So I finished the school year, moved back to Utah. At that point, I decided to go to byu. Just kidding.

Margi Dehlin [02:40:15] We both were like, wait a second.

Anna Schreyer [02:40:17] I'm so sorry. I just had to break it a little bit. I was a little bit heavy and uncomfortable. No, no, no. Sorry.

John Dehlin [02:40:25] What year is this? What year is this?

Anna Schreyer [02:40:26] So this would have been 2015.

John Dehlin [02:40:30] Was it 2015 or 14?

Anna Schreyer [02:40:31] Yeah, it's 2015. Yeah. I graduated in 2014, and I came back in, like, fall of 2015. Yeah. So I come back, and this is when I get my first ever welding job.

John Dehlin [02:40:43] A welding job?

Anna Schreyer [02:40:44] Welding job. I. That is still what I do to this day.

Margi Dehlin [02:40:47] Really?

Anna Schreyer [02:40:48] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:40:48] Had you always loved it, you'd always been interested.

Anna Schreyer [02:40:51] When I was, like, 12, my brother taught me, and I did it at Bonneville High School, and I loved it. And I. You. You have to be 18 to weld as well.

John Dehlin [02:40:59] Is this where the Kingstons come in?

Margi Dehlin [02:41:01] Yes. Yes. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:41:03] Okay.

Anna Schreyer [02:41:03] So I. I got my first welding job, and there was a guy in my church. He was rough. We had a lot of rough people in our church. Like, that was kind of our vibe was like, ex con, like, convicts and drug addicts and all that. That was our community.

Anna Schreyer [02:41:18] And he was one of them. And he was like, I got this awesome position for you. You can come and weld with me, blah, blah, blah. I just want to get my foot in the door, and I show up. I Get the job.

Anna Schreyer [02:41:30] First day on the job, they're like, hey, we want to introduce you to our boss. I'm like, okay. And out comes this very strange looking fella. Literally what I thought was like, wow, he's kind of a little bit odd looking.

Anna Schreyer [02:41:44] And it is Job Kingston. For those of you who don't know, Job Kingston is John Daniel Kingston. He's kind of like the number two of the Kingston clan.

John Dehlin [02:41:56] We should tell people the Amanda Ray episode we did on one of the series where we cover the Kingstons.

Margi Dehlin [02:42:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:42:02] Being the higher, the lower the number, the closer you are to kind of like the pure blood of Jesus.

Anna Schreyer [02:42:08] So I apologize, I say number two, kind of as in like leader wise. That wasn't his actual number. His number was different. It was like 60 something or, I

John Dehlin [02:42:17] don't know, like low number.

Anna Schreyer [02:42:18] It's a low number. His number was very low. Yes. And so this is his first wife. So John Daniel Kingston's first wife's son.

John Dehlin [02:42:27] For those who don't know. Kingston's are Mormon fundamentalist polygamists that are centered in sort of Ogden and Salt Lake areas.

Anna Schreyer [02:42:36] Yeah. Started in Davis county, but kind of are very smart and they beat the FLDS problem and they do not have a commune. So it's very, it's. It's smart because all of them live in different houses scattered throughout the valley. So you can't really pinpoint who they are, where they are. They don't put, as far as polygamy goes on birth certificates. They don't put the father's name, they just make up a name. So it's like genuinely very intelligent. Unfortunately, it lets them get away with a lot. But yeah, I ended up working for

John Dehlin [02:43:13] the Kingstons and you know, just based on my weak memory, a lot of money in Utah, a lot of power in Utah, a lot of incest because of this belief that you want to have the pure blood of Jesus in you. So you end up marrying children, siblings, cousins.

Anna Schreyer [02:43:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:43:36] And yeah. So a lot of abuse.

Anna Schreyer [02:43:39] Yeah. So from my understanding, they believed that they were direct descendants of Jesus and so they had to keep the bloodline pure. So there was a lot of marriage. That was kind of what I was alluding to as far as him being a little strange looking. And I don't mean to be offensive in any way, but he truly was. And you could tell who was a Kingston at that job, even if they didn't say it because a lot of them have different last names as well. But you could tell who was a

John Dehlin [02:44:05] Kingston based on the Word is probably inbred. I don't know if that's offensive.

Anna Schreyer [02:44:09] Yeah, I don't know if that's offensive either.

John Dehlin [02:44:10] Politically. Yeah, you know, incorrect, but.

Anna Schreyer [02:44:13] But you could. Yeah, you could tell because they had. So who I worked for was a company called AFAB Engineering. So they were contracted out by Washakie Renewable Energy. I'm sure a lot of your listeners are aware of, like the big scandal that happened with Washakie Renewable Energy. But Washakie was run by Jacob and Isaiah Kingston. So that's job brothers, like same mom, like full brothers.

Anna Schreyer [02:44:41] And so I worked for them. We were. There's a lot of people that are like, when they talk about the fraud that happened. If I can give like a little quick blurb about what happened, basically they started a biodiesel fuel company. They were not only embezzling funds, but they were also buying off the books biodiesel fuel, having it come through the back of the shop, like that property, and sending it out as if they were creating the biodiesel fuel. And so they were getting major tax credits. And so they were not actually operating. We had never made any biodiesel fuel. The plant wasn't finished. But a lot of people think that it was just like a full ghost operation.

Anna Schreyer [02:45:24] But that's not. That's not how it worked. We were actually building, like they planned eventually to get to the point where they would have a biodiesel plant, but it wasn't there yet. Like, we were still actively working on it. So I was one of the welders that helped build that plant and worked alongside a lot of Kingston's, especially, like the younger boys.

Anna Schreyer [02:45:47] They would come in and yeah, I just kind of started getting really intrigued and like, wanted to learn more about. I had watched Escaping Polygamy and was like, this is wild. But that is kind of what led me to Mormon stories.

John Dehlin [02:46:05] So you knew you were working for the Kingstons? They were polygamous Mormon offshoot. Did you just say you knew they were committing fraud or. At the time.

Anna Schreyer [02:46:14] No, no, absolutely not. So I didn't know that they were the. I didn't know that I was working for the Kingstons. When I got the job, it was just, hi, I'm Job Kingston. And I was like, oh, shoot. And I had heard the name and I definitely went on a deep dive afterwards, but I had heard the name of like, the polygamist Kingston. So.

Anna Schreyer [02:46:32] But yeah, it was like, so intriguing because really, like, a lot of the stuff that they say in escaping polygamy, obviously most people would Assume they're telling the truth, but it's not really dramatized as far as what they're saying is happening. Like, that was real. All of the young men that were involved, like these younger boys, genuinely boys, like, some of them weren't even quite teenagers, like, working in the shop, like sweeping. And there was a lot less of that going on at Washakie. So Washakie is. It's now been seized by the government,

John Dehlin [02:47:10] like by the FBI kind of thing.

Anna Schreyer [02:47:11] Yes, but it was up in. The closest Idaho city is Malad. The closest Utah city is Plymouth. But it's technically its own, like, town. It's called Washakie. But it's kind of like if you were to take i15 up and you just like, keep going all the way up, you're not going to, like, Logan or anything, you just keep going past Tremont and it's up there. So it's about. It took me like an hour, hour and a half from Ogden to get there.

Margi Dehlin [02:47:43] So.

John Dehlin [02:47:43] Another thing I'm remembering from Amanda Ray's interview is that once she got a job, she gave to her employer the bank account of the Kingstons. So she wouldn't receive her own paycheck. Her paycheck would go to the bank account of the Kingstons, because they owned the bank.

Anna Schreyer [02:48:05] Yeah. So I would talk to a lot of these younger guys and they were working and some of them were getting, like, kind of skilled positions. Like they would be trained to be electricians or one of them was a welder with us. But they were given like, like coupons for the. Like the Kingston store. They weren't given, like, actual money. Like, the money they were earning was really going back. And I remember one time I talked to this one, one of the. The Kingstons, and he was kind of far removed, but he was a Kings.

Anna Schreyer [02:48:38] And I talked to him about it and I'm asking him all these questions. I was way too inquisitive. And he had said, you don't get it, do you? And he could have been being dramatic, but he said, you don't get it, do you? And I was like, what? And he said, it's all Brother Paul. This is all owned by Brother Paul?

John Dehlin [02:48:57] Paul Kingston?

Anna Schreyer [02:48:58] Yes. It's just that everybody kind of gets control in there. So all of the kids and the brothers and the. They're just like, running operations, but, like, it's a huge monopoly that eventually goes back to him and so could be wrong. But I, at the time 18, I was like, sneaky. So I. Yeah, but I worked there and they knew at that point I was getting ready to go to Mozambique. They knew I was just like working there and then I was going to be a missionary. I told them up front when I got the job and before I left for Mozambique, job came out on the floor.

Anna Schreyer [02:49:37] And he said, hey, I just, I really appreciate your work and I just want you to know that whenever you come home, there will be a job here for you. So initially I only went to Mozambique for three months just for a training school. It was like a kind of not as intense as making you go for two years, but also not as light as like a two week missions trip. Like it was supposed to be a little bit more involved. And so I came back from that and I ended up working for him again. And I was there when the FBI and the IRS showed up and they were like, wrap up.

Anna Schreyer [02:50:13] Like, wrap up your leads. Like, you're done. And I was like, for the day. And they're like, nope, forever. Like, he. It's not. And I was just like, I don't have a job.

John Dehlin [02:50:26] Like I have during a raid, basically.

Anna Schreyer [02:50:30] Yeah. And I remember there was a lot of. They had started putting a lot of restrictions on them leading up to that. So they had like, put like, hey, your office workers can't come in anymore. This, that and the other while they were investigating. And I remember one time I walked into the office and I had no idea there was an investigation going on. I just knew that the office workers weren't supposed to be there. And I walked into the office to like grab a piece of paper or something and all the lights are off and oh gosh, I think her name is Rachel.

Margi Dehlin [02:51:05] It's

Anna Schreyer [02:51:07] Jacob's mom was there in the dark, computer lit, you know, face. And I'm like, hi. And I remember her being like, hello. And I just was like, oh. And I. I just thought. I didn't know there was an investigation. I didn't know. So I just thought that was. Why was she in the dark? That was so weird. And then like afterwards, everything starts clicking and I'm like, oh my gosh. Yeah, I was there. They got shut down. I did. I'm not gonna lie to you. I worked for them one more time after that.

Anna Schreyer [02:51:39] I did go. Cause I was so intrigued. And honestly, at that point, we'll get to it. But I really wanted to like save Polygamous and like, I felt so burdened and compassionate for these people that were stuck in it. So I thought, what a great inn to go and work for them. So I worked for them in South Salt Lake as well. And kind of did that. And then I ended up. I left that because it just became too much. There was a lot of child labor going on at that particular shop. And I was like 19 at that point. I couldn't do it, so I left.

Anna Schreyer [02:52:10] But that was my little intro to the Kingstons. And so I found. Really wanted to understand what they believed versus what the LDS Church believed. And that is how I found Mormon stories was through working for the Kingstons, which is kind of silly, but that's how I kind of came to find you guys.

Serving as a Missionary in Mozambique

John Dehlin [02:52:34] Okay. So did you end up being a missionary in Mozambique?

Anna Schreyer [02:52:39] Yeah, so I did. So I went to Mozambique for, like, three months initially. And then I applied to be on staff of the school. So, like, to go back as like, a staff member for basically, like, international students would come. And we had on average, like 200 to 300 students from about 30 to 40 different nations that would be represented at each school. And it was a very, like, charismatic. With Heidi Baker, the person that I wanted to become, I went to her school. Wow. So, yeah. So that dream checks. Checking them off. I was checking them off big time. I became obsessed with Mozambique, like, full blown as a kid. So like my 14, my 14th birthday, the cake was a Mozambique flag.

Margi Dehlin [02:53:27] Oh, wow.

Anna Schreyer [02:53:28] I had, like, bracelets. I had shoes that said, like. Called my email still to this day, which you probably noticed, called tomosemail.com. it's. I just told everybody my email address.

Margi Dehlin [02:53:39] It's fine.

Anna Schreyer [02:53:40] Email me. It's fine.

Margi Dehlin [02:53:41] It's defining. Yeah.

Anna Schreyer [02:53:42] Yeah. It was a big deal. It was like, a lot. It was my entire personality, which I regret now because now it's very. I pigeonholed myself so hard into that, where I'm like, I get it. Like, I get that my parents are upset that I'm not doing that because that was all I ever talked about doing. But the backstory of it is fulfilling all of these.

Margi Dehlin [02:54:03] That's right.

Anna Schreyer [02:54:04] These expectations that I will say my siblings, like, my brother just graduated as a mechanical engineer. If I would have said, hey, guys, I want to go to school and I want to go study US History. And they'd be like, go for it. It wasn't that they. It was just that I said that for so long. So I don't really blame them, but I did do that. That was rough.

John Dehlin [02:54:29] So why aren't you a missionary in Mozambique today? What happened?

Anna Schreyer [02:54:32] Yeah, so I went and I. All of the conditioning that I'd had up until that point, it got worse. I was not even a semblance of Ana anymore. Once I got to Mozambique, I started.

John Dehlin [02:54:49] This is the second time you went. A second time?

Anna Schreyer [02:54:52] First and the second time. So like I lived in Mozambique, like in spurts, on and off for about four years. So I'd like, my visa would expire, I would come home, work, save up money, go back, that kind of thing.

Anna Schreyer [02:55:07] So I just became like a shell of a person. Like it was only Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus. It's really sad. I have like a journal that like when I started the journal it was very Ana. Like the voicing was like so me about being so excited to go to Mozambique. And then very quickly, like three pages in, it is all prayers to Jesus saying like, I'm so sorry for being so, so selfish. I'm so sorry. When I'm like serving as a missionary, I, you know, would say like I'd written things in the journal of like, you know, you're either Lord of all or you're not Lord at all.

Anna Schreyer [02:55:44] Like, you deserve everything. Like, you gave my life, you gave your life for me. Like, how could I not give you my entire life? Like, it was just like really, like I read through those journals recently, like getting ready for this and it was, was sad.

John Dehlin [02:56:00] What types of things were you doing as a missionary there?

Anna Schreyer [02:56:02] Yeah, so our school is a little bit interesting because it's a lot of, I would now say indoctrination. Like they want people to be drinking their Kool Aid. They want people to experience their brand of Christianity. So we have classes that run and they, that same kind of idea of these heavy hitter, like preachers and speakers and all that. They're flying them out to Mozambique to speak at the school. So people are getting this like inundated with all of these different messages. And so that was a big part. And our reasoning at the time was, and it's all international students. It's not Mozambicans, it's international students.

Anna Schreyer [02:56:42] Our reasoning at the time was like, you need to have the foundation and be like filled with Jesus before you become a missionary. So it's a missionary training school and like you'll figure out all of the logistics later, you'll figure out how to do your feeding program later. But this, the core of who you are, your identity is the most important thing. Like we need to make sure that you are not gonna burn out. You're not gonna, you know, stray from this. So that was, that was the majority of what I did. And it wasn't until later years that I actually started doing like missions work, like humanitarian kind of stuff.

Margi Dehlin [02:57:18] Almost sounds like the MTC a little. Yeah, yeah.

Anna Schreyer [02:57:20] Very similar parallel.

Margi Dehlin [02:57:23] Yep. And same with your experience of this kind of next level conditioning where you look back and you read your journal and it's just intense. It's just all about Jesus, your sinfulness as your, you know, dedicating yourself full throttle to this work.

Anna Schreyer [02:57:47] Yeah, I'm genuinely like, I'm apologizing to God because I, like, brought a hard drive with like the office on it, you know, and I'm watching the office instead of praying, like, you know, like stuff like that. Cause like, our. I mean, I feel so. I feel so much for LDS missionaries and the fact that they are like completely removed, like, that is so hard. That is not the experience I had you.

Margi Dehlin [02:58:16] You.

Anna Schreyer [02:58:16] But it kind of makes it a little bit harder too, because it's not expected of you, but you're like kind of upper tier if you're doing those things. So you kind of get to climb the ladder in like your holiness level because. And there's some of that in LDS missions as well. But like not watching tv, not, you know, reading secular books, listening to secular music, like, that's all exciting expected of an LDS missionary.

Anna Schreyer [02:58:42] The mission school that I went to is like, yeah. Like, it's maybe not the best, but like, okay. You know, like, we would have like, even staff. Like, once I was getting got on staff, like a bunch of us would get together to like, watch movies together and stuff. And it was very like, kind of normal, a sense of normalcy when you're in this, like, foreign country. But then it became kind of the ladder of holiness where I was like, really stripping back anything that was my identity. I viewed it as sin. Any. Any. Like, I remember I had wanted, which now whatever I had wanted, dreads for a long time.

Anna Schreyer [02:59:18] I did. I just wanted them and I got them and I had them. And my leaders did not like them. They didn't like them. And they came up with all these reasons of why I shouldn't have them. And I got real mad because I was like, this happens. Nothing to do with what we're doing here. This has nothing to do with it. And I started to argue with them. And then in the following week I sat with it and I was like, wow, I am so prideful that I would care this much about my hair. I can't believe. And I brushed them all out on the mission field, no running water, brushed my dreads out.

Anna Schreyer [02:59:55] Like, just like stuff like that. That is just. Yeah. So I got really Intense. But then I also was still listening to Mormon stories, which was interesting.

John Dehlin [03:00:06] Okay. And I'll just say that sounds like scrupulosity. Like you started to develop religious OCD in Africa.

Anna Schreyer [03:00:13] So I've. I've been listening for a long time. Anytime you talked about scrupulosity, I was like, nah. Like, no way. I read my journals and I was like, oh, shoot. Like that. There is nothing. There's no difference between what you describe as scrupulous. And I don't want to take it lightly, just throw it around, because that was how I felt before was I was like, let's not throw that term around, because that seems intense and people are genuinely diagnosed with it. But as far as similarities.

Margi Dehlin [03:00:42] Yes.

Anna Schreyer [03:00:43] Very similar expressions of that.

John Dehlin [03:00:46] Yeah. Hyper religiosity, heightened sense. Sense of guilt and shame. Extreme religious behavior.

Anna Schreyer [03:00:54] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:00:55] And I lost.

Anna Schreyer [03:00:55] I lost a lot of years of like, connecting with friends and family through that because I was just so, so religious. So intense. I remember even, like, I missed out on my sister in law's, like, bachelorette party. She had her bachelorette party in Vegas. I went. I came home from Mozambique to go. It was too much. I was the culture shock, the sin, the ev. And I was mean and was not celebratory of like, my sister in law is being welcomed into my family. Like, I didn't have any harsh feelings towards her prior. But in that moment, and I. I regret that so very much. It just like messed up a lot of relationships through that year, through those years.

John Dehlin [03:01:41] So when you say bachelorette party, you don't mean.

Anna Schreyer [03:01:43] I mean, we had gone to do like a pole dancing class, but not like, do you know what I mean? It was like a Vegas, like, kind of trope. Like, there was nothing.

John Dehlin [03:01:52] You weren't going to Chippendales?

Anna Schreyer [03:01:54] No, no. It was like, pretty mild. But like, we had eaten at a restaurant that was like attached to a club and that was like. I mean, in that moment, I'm feeling the weight of sin in the room.

John Dehlin [03:02:08] Too close to alcohol. Whoa.

Anna Schreyer [03:02:10] No. They, like, like a couple people were doing shots and I was like, absolutely not. What's going on? Like, it was so. And I. I just messed up so much through that. As far as, like, personal relationships, like, I messed up a lot during those years by just removing myself from normalcy as super sad. Like, I hate that because on LDS mission, like, you come home and a lot of people, like, they kind of like reset after a couple months, or at least from my understanding, from listening to a lot of people's stories. It was like years of me being like that, which is really sad. I hate that.

John Dehlin [03:02:52] So before we start jumping to kind of the unraveling of your faith and the role Mormon stories and studying Mormonism played, I've already asked this kind of like, at your peak missionary experience, are you delivering water to people? Are you immunizing people? Are you preaching the gospel and baptizing people? Like, what's peak missionary productivity during your four years in Mozambique?

Anna Schreyer [03:03:19] Yeah. So for a majority of my time that I spent in Mozambique was with the school, and that was like the most important to me at the time

John Dehlin [03:03:28] because I was so this is like a K12.

Anna Schreyer [03:03:31] No, no, no. It's like adults. The school is like. When I say the school, it's a missions training school. So it's like the mtc, but.

John Dehlin [03:03:39] Okay, you're teaching Mozambique people?

Anna Schreyer [03:03:41] No, international.

John Dehlin [03:03:43] Okay.

Anna Schreyer [03:03:44] Isn't that teaching so wild?

John Dehlin [03:03:47] So I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

Anna Schreyer [03:03:48] It's like a playground for people who want to like, dip their toes into, like, mission work. They go to Mozambique because it's an inc intro to a third world nation. They're living there, but then they're with all international students. Everyone's speaking English. Everyone's like, it's interesting.

John Dehlin [03:04:08] This is kind of apostolic work.

Anna Schreyer [03:04:10] Yes, it's very apostolic.

John Dehlin [03:04:13] You're there to help teach other aspiring assembly of God leaders or charismatics teachers leaders to become church leaders worldwide.

Anna Schreyer [03:04:26] Yep.

John Dehlin [03:04:27] Right.

Anna Schreyer [03:04:27] That was it. And I loved it. And especially seeing my parents and like the apostolics serving the most epic people.

John Dehlin [03:04:32] No. Okay.

Anna Schreyer [03:04:33] So it's like so wild. I didn't do that until later, but at the time, like, I was so in it. I was like, jesus, this is. I'm doing it. And then in your mind, you're training people and they're going out and they're actually becoming missionaries and they're serving the places that they go to. So it's like.

John Dehlin [03:04:51] Well, I guess that's what I'm asking. When you say you did it later, what did you do later?

Anna Schreyer [03:04:54] Oh, okay. Yeah. So it's a little bit weird because I. I'll jump into a little bit of the Mormonism thing real quick. But I basically, like, I'm listening to Mormon stories while I'm serving. And we did do some stuff like we built houses for the blind. That was one of our programs. So we were actively like taking the students with us to be like, this is our well digging program. This is our. But the main focus was, was the school. Does that make sense?

Margi Dehlin [03:05:20] Yeah.

Anna Schreyer [03:05:21] So it's like, almost like your extracurriculars were the actual humanitarian work. But then the main thing was more of a, like, Bible school kind of vibe, so.

Studying Mormonism and Encountering Bart Ehrman

John Dehlin [03:05:32] Okay, so you started Mormon stories to

Anna Schreyer [03:05:34] understand polygamy, just the differences of belief. And then I remember I asked my dad. I was like, dad, like, what's going on? And he said, well, at my office of the church, there's, like, this. This, like, big red book if you want to go grab that. It'll teach you a lot of, like, what. All the church history and this shadow or reality, that's Sandra Tanner's shadow. And I actually got to meet her. That was, like, awesome. It's like my dream come true. Oh, my gosh. It probably scared her to death because I was, like, fangirling, and she's like,

John Dehlin [03:06:03] you went to her bookstore?

Anna Schreyer [03:06:05] No, I have been to her bookstore, but I actually met her. Do you know Lin Wilder?

John Dehlin [03:06:10] Yeah.

Anna Schreyer [03:06:10] And the. Yeah. So I went to talk at a church that Lynn Wilder had about her book Unveiling Grace, and I met Sandra at that event.

John Dehlin [03:06:20] So those who don't know Lynn Wilder is kind of well known in the Christian circles as being a former Mormon. Former BYU professor.

Anna Schreyer [03:06:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:06:29] Who then was saved and then became sort of like a really prominent Christian speaker.

Margi Dehlin [03:06:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:06:39] An author bringing people to Christianity. As an ex Mormon. Right.

Margi Dehlin [03:06:43] Yep.

John Dehlin [03:06:43] Yeah.

Anna Schreyer [03:06:43] So, yeah, I went to that. I had no inclination that Sandra Tanner would be there, but I, like, looked over, and I was like. Because I'd seen the Mormon stories. That interview, the first one that you did. And so I was like, oh, my gosh. And I'm geeking out. My friend who has no context at all, she's like, okay.

Anna Schreyer [03:07:03] She had, like, snuck a picture because she knew it was a big deal to me. But, like, that's so weird. I know. That's so weird. But I was, like, so into all of the Mormon everything. So, anyway, so, yeah, so I started listening to Mormon stories because I found shadow a reality. And then I'm looking that up. And then you had done that. That interview not long before I found, like, I'm talking maybe a couple years is when you had done that. That first Sandra Tanner interview. And so I'd found that that stressed me. Just so you know, we can talk about it later. That interview stressed me because I challenged

John Dehlin [03:07:41] her Christianity in the Bible. Right.

Anna Schreyer [03:07:42] It was a little cringey for me. I'm sitting in my Christian belief and going, oh, I don't like that. I don't like that he said that. I don't like that. He asked that very logical question because I'd been living in a bubble of like, nobody asks questions for so long.

John Dehlin [03:07:56] So. Yeah, because the. The criticism of Sandra and Gerald is they go hard at Mormonism, but they don't use those same critiques to look at the Bible and just general Christianity.

Anna Schreyer [03:08:06] Yeah. And I wouldn't have had any at that point. I'm like, I've read a good portion. Obviously, it's a big feat to read Mormonism. Shadow of reality. It's huge. But I'd read a good enough portion to where I was like, these people are brilliant. Like, she is brilliant. And this doesn't negate her brilliance whatsoever. But in. In my mind at the time, I thought, she's so intelligent. There's no way she hasn't looked into this. Like, there's no way she hasn't looked into this stuff. So I just trusted that. Like, I was like, she can't. She can't have gone so far into, like, Mormonism and not had done the same thing for Christianity. And even though some of her answers in that interview. I don't know how, like, long it's been since you've even rewatched or if you ever do. You were pretty tough. It was good.

John Dehlin [03:08:54] I was a little tough.

Anna Schreyer [03:08:55] It was good. It was like, it was a good interview. And I remember thinking, like, that was a little bit of an awkward response or I kind of felt embarrassed almost as a Christian. And again, I all respect and honor to, of course, Sandra Tanner. There's no. But at the time, that was my thought. And so I just kind of trusted people like that. Like, when I watched stuff like that, I was like, yeah, well, she's brilliant and she not had any problems. And clearly she, like, does her research. So. Yeah, but I got super into all of that and through the kind of scrupulosity, actually really felt very burdened for the Mormon Church and was like, I gotta.

Anna Schreyer [03:09:39] I gotta get back to Utah. I have to. I have to go save the LDS Church. Me at 19 years old. I'm gonna do it. I have all this information. Surely they will welcome me with open arms. And I was just so set because in my mind I was like, not only do I have the information, but I have, like, the juice. I've got the cool stuff of Christianity that, like, why would they not want? So I actually had a really rough.

Anna Schreyer [03:10:12] I was sad about it still because I wanted to be in Mozambique, but I felt like God was calling me to come home. And so I told my leaders, I'm going Back home. And for a time period, I came back to Utah. Boy, I went to Temple Square all the time. All the time.

John Dehlin [03:10:28] Like picketing Temple Square?

Anna Schreyer [03:10:29] No, no, not like that. No.

Margi Dehlin [03:10:31] Trying to talk to people.

Anna Schreyer [03:10:32] Just talking to people. Just talking to people. I'd go and take the tours. I want to talk to the missionaries. I want to like. And I was like, I feel pretty gracious. Like, I don't think that I was like, like, whoa, what about, you know, I don't think I like shoved things in people's face, but genuinely wanted to have conversations with people, see what they thought. I would sign up for the missionaries to come to my house. They never came. Oh, never came. But again, pastor's house. They probably had it in the local ward. Yeah, I was living at my parents house. Yeah, they wouldn't have, they wouldn't have come. But I was like, please.

John Dehlin [03:11:03] And I remember parents were to do not visit list.

Anna Schreyer [03:11:06] Yeah, I had. This is so funny. I had my neighbor start calling for me, like my LDS neighbor. I was like, can you have the missionaries come to your house and can I come over to talk with them?

Anna Schreyer [03:11:19] Because I was like, I just want to talk to them, but they won't come. And so I started getting real, real weird with it. Going to the lds, to Temple Square all the time, talking to as many LDS people as I could.

Anna Schreyer [03:11:37] Even after that, when I would travel, like, anytime I'm anywhere and I see LDS missionaries, I will always stop and go talk to them. Even to this day, I will go and talk to them because what's up? Like, you're probably from where I'm from. This is crazy, you know, and so I had like such a. Honestly, it was very fun. Like, that was a super fun time in my life. But at the same time, some things are starting to unravel a little bit.

Anna Schreyer [03:12:05] And I'm trying to think exactly of like, what, what it was specifically or if it was just all of the high demand stuff that I was like, oh, no, I am doing this. I'm doing the same thing. And it would, like, again, it's that same speaking in tongues thing where I'm like, during the day, everything's totally fine and like, no, this isn't. But then, you know, late at night when you're sitting there thinking about it, you're going, well, this isn't really adding up. And I know I've been like, making some stuff up too. But then they're also, I think, making some stuff up.

Anna Schreyer [03:12:45] So like, where does this, where does this go for me? And so, but I don't, Yeah, I don't, I don't necessarily know if I could pinpoint like a specific.

John Dehlin [03:12:59] Yeah, well, I'll just say one of the most mind blowing parts of my 20 years was when I did that YouTube survey and found out that over half of my audience has never been Mormon. But then I thought about some of the most influential things that happened to me. And one was just seeing Going Clear when I watched the documentary Going Clear and learned all about Scientology and how messed up it was, how messed up L. Ron Hubbard was and how messed up, you know, that, that south park episode on the Scientologists, you know, that talked about the thetans and the, you know, the volcano and you know, and all the high demand, high control stuff and the surveillance and the excommunications and the, the shunning.

John Dehlin [03:13:50] It didn't take long before as I'm like registering all this abuse and all these problems where I'm starting to create this parallel list of abuse and problems in my own tradition. I mean, it doesn't take long and I think that's why so many people who have never been Mormons start connecting with Mormon stories.

Anna Schreyer [03:14:10] Yeah. And to an extent it's really funny because I was very, in a similar way to a lot of LDS people. I was very protective of my faith. So like even that, that Sandra Tanner series, it took a while for me to get through it. And at the time I was actually on staff at my parents church when I had come home. And so I'm at the church like doing stuff and I'm listening to it and going like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Let's not listen to that. Like that's not faith affirming. Like stuff like that where. And then, you know, it like hits you a little bit later like, whoa, I am, I'm doing the stuff, I'm doing the stuff that they're, that, that a lot of LDS people are doing.

Anna Schreyer [03:14:53] And so that, that became like super weird, very uncomfortable for me to confront and even you had, had. So I'll skip over like a lot of it because it's, it's just a lot of my Mozambique stuff I haven'. Fully processed because it's just a lot. There was, we got sent away for like terrorism, like there was terrorism in our region and we got sent, like, there's just a lot of like really hard stuff that I haven't fully processed. So I'm going to skip over a bit. But at some point I was home and I was really into all of the Mormonism stuff.

John Dehlin [03:15:34] Did I remember the David Bacavoy interviews where I'm deconstructing the Old Testament and the. In the New Testament?

Anna Schreyer [03:15:40] Wouldn't have watched it. No way. No way. So you seen that those know that they existed, Correct? Yeah, but wouldn't have watched them because it was just like, what? It's so funny and it's so terrible. Like, what does this guy know? Like, that's so terrible.

John Dehlin [03:15:54] A Mormon can't know the Bible?

Anna Schreyer [03:15:55] Yeah. How would you. You know? And so that was really. That was really hard. But I'm. I'm getting more into it.

John Dehlin [03:16:02] And then also I would have done Bart Ehrman around that time.

Anna Schreyer [03:16:05] So we'll get to that.

John Dehlin [03:16:06] Okay. Okay. Okay. So I'm just trying to jog your memory. That's fine.

Anna Schreyer [03:16:09] Yeah, no, absolutely. So I ended up being into the Mormonism thing, but then the Christianity stuff is kind of faltering for me. And especially, I would say Western Christianity really started to bother me because even though I was doing this mission school that was training international students, I still was doing a lot of humanitarian stuff there, like, in the midst of it and being in a different culture with different religions. And so I'm starting to get real ticked off at the Western church because I'm like, you guys don't get it.

John Dehlin [03:16:44] Is it the white savior kind of stuff?

Anna Schreyer [03:16:47] No, because I would have been on board with White savior probably, like, genuinely, I would have been on board with it. Not, you know, consciously thinking, like, appreciate the honesty. Yeah, no, I would have. I would have been on board with it because I'm like, why wouldn't they want this? Like, it's so terrible, like, horrible. But I. It would have been like, I had beef with Mormonism and I had beef with Christianity because I was like, you guys aren't giving.

Anna Schreyer [03:17:14] You're not helping anybody. Like, in terms of, like, I mean, even my. My parents church, like, they're much more generous than the average church. They do, like, food giveaways, and they've increased a lot of their programs, like, over the years. And I've. But I was just like, it's not enough. Like, I was so intense about it. And then also being scrupulosity, being like, nobody's at the same level that I'm at. I know more than all of you. And you guys aren't giving your time in the way that you should. You're not like, why do you even have a job? Shouldn't you be serving God? Like, things like that, where it just.

Anna Schreyer [03:17:52] It spiraled really quickly. And then that resentment kind of turned to like a little crack being opened. Weirdly hyper religiosity actually opened a little bit of crack for criticism, you know, because I was like, well, I can criticize the church as a whole. I'm not criticizing Jesus. Like, Jesus is like, he's the one that's doing all this stuff and he's where I get all of these ideas from.

Anna Schreyer [03:18:14] And so I remember like being really frustrated by like the, the signs for not giving money out at Temple Square. That really bothered me, like, not helping like homeless people. So I would like load up on my own. Just like, this isn't a program, it's just me. I would load up bags for like unhoused people that had like playing cards and tissues and feminine products and whatever. Like there was no Bibles involved. It wasn't like I was just like, I want to help. And. And what are you guys doing? Anyone. Anyone who believes in Jesus, what are you doing?

John Dehlin [03:18:51] So not helping the poor enough. Yes.

Anna Schreyer [03:18:53] It like really radicalized me being overseas where I was just like, this is not. How do we have such a high unhoused population in Salt Lake City and Utah as a whole and we have so many churches. What's going on? So I got really cranky, really cranky really fast, Was really upset, then started kind of like deconstructing a bit of my lies. As far as like the

Margi Dehlin [03:19:29] speaking in

Anna Schreyer [03:19:30] tongues, I wouldn't have gone as far as speaking in tongues. That was like a core, like this is lore at that point. But like a lot of the experiences that I had like, that I had

John Dehlin [03:19:42] is like epistemology stuff. Like, how do we know things? How do we believe things? No, it's like, is our feelings belief

Anna Schreyer [03:19:48] or this was like, this was like, okay, so in charismatic, like people have like these really outrageous encounters where they

John Dehlin [03:19:56] are

Anna Schreyer [03:19:59] falling on the floor. Seeing vision, seeing, da da da. I had a lot of that stuff that I did and it was, was not real.

Margi Dehlin [03:20:06] Oh, I see.

Anna Schreyer [03:20:07] And so a lot of that is starting to unravel.

John Dehlin [03:20:10] Authenticity reckoning internally.

Anna Schreyer [03:20:13] Yes. And. And then being like, I'm stuck in this because I'm. I'm at my parents church, I'm in the middle, like, what am I supposed to do? I can't go back on this stuff. And this is stuff that like they view. This is what really started to get me. As I was preaching at my parents church, like a little bit more frequently. They were having me preach sometimes. And so I would preach and then like their board members were coming to me, for prayer to be like, I just want to, like, receive what you have and, like, this, like, mantle that's on your life. And I was like, in the moment, of course.

Anna Schreyer [03:20:50] I'm like, yes, let me pray for you, but get home. And I'm like, why are these people that I've looked up to my entire life asking me for prayer? And, like, really having to, like, dissect the fact that I have created this image of myself that's not real. I wasn't doing anything wrong.

Anna Schreyer [03:21:13] Yes, I was. I wasn't doing anything sinful, I should say, in terms of, like, the basics, you know, Like, I wasn't living a dual life, but I was sinning in the sense of, like. Like, I was lying. And so then that. Having to reckon with that and then kind of looking around and going for the first time, like, are you lying? Like, are you also making this up?

John Dehlin [03:21:38] Leaders, like, leaders?

Anna Schreyer [03:21:39] Yeah, leaders, anyone? I just kind of, like, started getting really, like. So we kind of flash forward to, like, 2019, and I got asked to go back to Mozambique. They had two major cyclones that hit the coast in 2019, one after the other, like, within like, a month and a half of each other. And I got asked to go back out and serve on a team that would be there for quite a while. I can tell the work was done. Pretty much we were gonna be there. And I told the woman that asked me, I was like, I don't know if you want me there, because I'm not.

Anna Schreyer [03:22:16] I'm not where I used to be. Because at this point, I'm kind of letting this stuff die off. I'm getting really angry all the time. I'm in a bad mood. So I'm not the chipper full send missionary ana that I was before. And I was like, I don't think you want me there. And she goes, no, I really feel like God asked me to have you come. And I was like, well, I told her, I said, I have a Broadway show I'm going to.

Anna Schreyer [03:22:43] So if you let me go to that Broadway show, then I'll be there afterwards. I'll fly out. Because I was gonna go for, like. I had bought tickets to Wicked to see Jessica Vosk. It's important to me. And so I was like, if you let me go to that show, I'll be there after. And I'll go. I'll get.

John Dehlin [03:23:00] What was the musical again?

Anna Schreyer [03:23:01] It was Wicked, but it was. I wanted to see Jessica Vosk. She's one of the Elphabas, and it was her Last week performing.

John Dehlin [03:23:06] So I thought you said book Mormon musical.

Anna Schreyer [03:23:08] I have seen Book of Mormon. I saw that in Kansas City. It was actually really fun anyway. But, yeah, so they had me come out. Anyway, I get out there, and at this point, that was the most difficult time I've ever spent in Mozambique because all of my faith stuff is starting to crumble. And speaking of the Book of Mormon, you know, like, this. The I Believe, where he's, like, a warlord who shoots people in the face. What's so scary about that? That was me pre. My faith falling apart, where I was, like, really unaware of the danger that I was in in these situations.

Anna Schreyer [03:23:50] And so being in Mozambique for that time period, I was terrified because I kind of don't have. I'm still kind of believing, but I kind of don't have, like, the faith that I should. And we were there during the election season, and it's really. I mean, it's developing nation. There's tons of unrest. Scary. People are getting shot. They're being killed, pulled out of their trucks.

Anna Schreyer [03:24:21] And so we were kind of grounded for a while. We had to stay, and we weren't allowed to go out because we were worried that. That we were gonna, like, our car. Our, like, vehicles were gonna get hijacked. And that became, like, really scary for me for the first time. I remember we had a guy break into my room. Like, I had rebar, but, like, a screen. And he had cut the screen and was reaching in to try to get to my night table. And I'm looking over, seeing his arm at night, trying to grab stuff off my, you know, nightstand. And I didn't.

John Dehlin [03:24:56] Terrifying.

Anna Schreyer [03:24:57] Yeah. Horrifying. He. We lived on, like, a compound. Like, truly. It was, you know, glass sticking out of the walls, whole thing. And he had broken in. And before Anna would have been, like, all good. I'm fine. It's that same thing of, like, the demons of being, like, I got. I got it.

Margi Dehlin [03:25:16] And. Yeah, you have Jesus.

Anna Schreyer [03:25:19] Yep. And so that became really scary. Like, I didn't go back to my room. I would sleep in the, like, living room on, like, this terrible, like, cot thing, because I was so scared to go back into my room. And all of those things just became, like, really bad. So then, Bart Ehrman. I'm driving a big old truck full of food because we were there to do all of the, like, restoration stuff. Like, we were building houses, doing food distributions, and helping, like, communities with, like, water and things like that. Cause it was a devastating, devastating cycle.

Anna Schreyer [03:25:53] And I'm driving a truck with A bed full of food to go take into these, you know, in the name of Jesus, to go take to these communities that have suffered just, like, horrible, horrible devastation. And I'm listening to your Bart Ehrman episode and just being like, ah. And at that point, I think I had, like, allowed myself for, like, I wasn't gonna look it up myself, but if I happened upon it, I was okay to, like, let those kinds of things in. Like, if it. If it came across my feed, I was like, you know, I'll listen to it. I didn't go research anything after that point, but I allowed myself to, like, listen to that episode.

Anna Schreyer [03:26:40] And I was still probably frustrated with the episode because, you know, like, Bart Ehrman is like, so, like, matter of fact at this point, you know, so I was just like, how dare you?

John Dehlin [03:26:52] Do you want to explain to people just at a high level who Bart Ehrman is and what his basic premises are?

Anna Schreyer [03:26:58] Yeah. So he's a New Testament professor. He's a professor at North Carolina Chapel Hill. And he was a evangelical Christian, strong believing, did seminary, was like, brought up under all of these incredible historians. And he. Over a long course of time, it was like a slow burn for him, ended up not believing in Christianity anymore. And so he is still a New Testament historian, and he studies textual criticism a lot. That's his kind of main thing. And so he's mostly concerned with validity of the New Testament. So he talks about just copies, times of when they were written, not having the original autographs, not, you know, changes. So you've got different variants between manuscripts and things like that. So he's that. But he. He's brilliant. But also he is brilliant. So he knows what he's talking about and acts accordingly. So I was kind of.

John Dehlin [03:28:09] Yeah. And some of the main takeaways are things like how the Gospels conflict with each other. So they're real problematic contradictions between Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, the fact that they were all written years and years after the events happened, you know, generations after and passed down orally. And the people whose names are on the Gospels aren't the ones who wrote the Gospels, not to mention the way that they've been changed over time. And so all those things call into question the validity of their historicity of the New Testament for many people.

Anna Schreyer [03:28:56] Yeah, it's super interesting because in my. I'm gonna save the Mormon Church. I ended up going with one of my friends to an institute class. It was Weber State's institute, and I went with her. And at that time, I don't Know if this was common, but this teacher was going over the different visions, the different accounts of the first vision. And I think he was going over the gospel topics, essays of. Of it, and he's explaining it and he's going, you know, it's actually good that there are differences. You know, like, the same thing is with, like, the New Testament. Like, there are differences, and he's comparing these things.

Anna Schreyer [03:29:35] And I remember at that point, I know nothing. And I'm going, that's not at all the same thing. Like, they're completely different people writing their own, like, what they view, their own point of view of the same story. Like, that's completely different. And realizing now that, like, the biggest problem is that people read the Bible and they read it, either open the Bible, read a chapter or two, or if they're gonna read it, they're obviously gonna read it in order.

Anna Schreyer [03:30:07] And you're inundated with all of the sermons of pastors, and they're saying all of these things, things about Jesus and his character and what he did and what. So when you read the New Testament and you see in one book that it says this, you've heard that sermon before. So you go, okay. Then when you read in the next book that it says a different thing, you've also heard that sermon, it doesn't click because you're not stacking them one on top of the other and comparing them. You're just reading them one after the other. And you've. If you've grown up in it, you know all these stories already.

Anna Schreyer [03:30:41] So none of them are like, oh, wait a second. I never realized the difference of theme from book to book of. Just like the Gospels.

John Dehlin [03:30:51] Yeah. If you line them up for when they were actually written chronologically, the earliest version, Jesus is not even necessarily the son of God and divine. And then over, you know, as you go to the next gospel written, the next gospel written by the last gospel written.

Anna Schreyer [03:31:09] John.

John Dehlin [03:31:09] John.

Anna Schreyer [03:31:10] Wow. He takes off with that. Yeah. But it doesn't seem odd when you read it because you go, yeah, I've heard this story. And then you read John and you go, yeah, that's the same. It's the same Jesus. And you just don't realize how different those stories are because you've listened to it your whole life.

John Dehlin [03:31:29] It's all true.

Anna Schreyer [03:31:30] It's all true. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:31:31] And you wouldn't have heard about historical criticism or Bart Ehrman in your years growing up in the Assemblies of God tradition?

Anna Schreyer [03:31:39] Absolutely not. No. I'm sure that my dad has heard who Bart Ehrman. Is. And things like that. But it never. Because I didn't go to any actual real life again. Loosey goosey. Charismatics are loosey goosey. I didn't go to any accredited schools. I never got any diploma of any kind or so there was no. It's not like I was going to seminary. Even if I went to a.

Anna Schreyer [03:32:08] Orthodox isn't the word I'm looking for, but, like, more sincere seminary, not like a liberal seminary. Even if I went to that, I still would have probably heard of Bart Ehrman, but I. I just didn't. Never came across. It wasn't in my realm at all. So I listened to it, but then kind of thought, like, I.

Anna Schreyer [03:32:29] And it was a webcam. I don't know if you remember that. Kind of, like a little, like, rough. And I was just like, I don't know if this is. But I'm listening to everything else that you're saying. And then even, like, at that point, I started listening to a couple different podcasts that were a little bit more critical of Christianity. So again, it's just slippery slope. It's all going downhill. But I'm still, like, so desperately I want to believe, but I'm just seeing it all fall around me. And so I hadn't gotten to the point where I was like, full stop, like, meh. But I remember I had sat down, my leadership, my whole team, when I was in Mozambique for that time, and I said, hey, I don't.

Anna Schreyer [03:33:17] I don't think I should be here. Like, I don't. I don't. I don't know if I clarified well enough that, like, I don't think I believe in this stuff anymore. But I definitely had a lot of doubts and kind of tried to express that in, like, the safest way I could without them being like, yeah, get out. You know? But they were very gracious and said, no, like, God told us you're supposed to be here, so you're supposed to be here. But that was devastating. Like, that trip was actually really hard for me because I came home and it was even worse because I just experienced, like, all this devastation, all this, like, immense, immense poverty.

Anna Schreyer [03:33:53] And coming face to face with, like, why is it that I was born in America and of course I get to be a Christian, and yet you're saying that all of these people are gonna go to hell? That was crushing. Like, really, really being face to face with these people, holding their hands. I was like, Like, I don't. I don't get it.

John Dehlin [03:34:17] Is that the teaching that. That an African who doesn't join Christianity. Yeah.

Anna Schreyer [03:34:23] I mean, if you don't. If you don't profess and proclaim that Jesus Christ is your savior and ask him to forgive you of your sins, doesn't matter. And then it would even go so far as to, to be. I. I would question, well, what about unreached people groups? What about people that, you know, know, haven't had a chance to hear the gospel? And the response would be, well, even the rocks will cry out. All of creation testifies of his goodness.

Anna Schreyer [03:34:51] So what? Like a. So you mean like, there's no excuse, like, if you do not accept Jesus, like, you're going to hell? That was, that. That was re. And then to like, that trip really started to be like the downfall of the white savior complex I had where people are coming to me and treating me way too well in the sense of almost putting me on a pedestal. These Mozambican Nationals. And I'm like, whoa, no. That was the first time that. Because I'm meeting them in the middle of there, like, they have nothing. There were women that were like giving birth in trees because the whole region was flooded.

Anna Schreyer [03:35:44] And I'm just being like, I have nothing to offer. You don't look at me. Like, I have nothing. And that was really hard. And to love their culture so much. They are so good at community. They're so good at grieving and grieving together and to watch these beautiful snippets of their lives and be like, I don't know any of this. I've not suffered to the extent that you've suffered. And I don't have.

Anna Schreyer [03:36:22] Why am I teaching you? It was hard. That was a big one. That was really. Yeah. So getting, getting home from that. I was already. I came home at the end of 2019, I was already pretty shook up. And then a really big scandal broke out within that, that ministry. It was bad. It was child abuse and just like really horrific cover up that came with it. And it had been going on for years.

John Dehlin [03:36:54] And one like a respected leader, prophet kind of person.

Anna Schreyer [03:36:59] Not necessarily. They were all people I knew, though. That was hard. They were people I knew. And so then to be like, oh my gosh, like, you're really not. Like, if you're the one that we're looking up to and then you're doing all of this, like, it's all just junk. There's no way this is real. Because how, like, how I was doing my best because I had this expectation that I had put on myself, but to perform for my Family. But I thought I was the oddball out. That wasn't just. I just wasn't receiving what everybody else was. So then to see these people that I thought were receiving it, and then they're not only lying about. Because I can only assume that they're lying about all the other stuff. They're not only lying about all the spiritual stuff, but then they're doing the most atrocious things behind closed doors.

John Dehlin [03:37:50] They're either molesting children or covering up the molestation of children.

Anna Schreyer [03:37:53] Yep. And that was. That was like the.

John Dehlin [03:37:57] Also. Also Mormon.

Anna Schreyer [03:37:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:38:00] Catholic.

Anna Schreyer [03:38:01] And, you know, and it was. That was like the breaking point for me where I just. I sunk so deep into, like. Because it was also my identity, like, being a missionary and specifically working with that ministry. Since I was a little girl, I always wanted to work with that ministry.

Margi Dehlin [03:38:17] It's your dream.

Anna Schreyer [03:38:19] And to find out that now morally, I cannot work for them anymore. I can't do it. So my life. What am I. What do I do? Because I'm. Morally, I will not go back. I can't. So how am I supposed to move forward? And it was, like, really hard for my parents to understand because they're like, well, you can be a missionary without. And I was like, no, you don't get. Like, the point was to be with them. Like, that was. I don't know why, but that was it. And so.

John Dehlin [03:38:51] Well, can I just say, on the one hand, you know, I was just going to say. I've said this a million times in Mormon stories, but every time I hear that some ag leader tells you you need to be in Africa or you need to be here or there. It's like fingernails on a chalkboard to me that any human will tell another human. God told me that you need to do X, Y, and Z. Like, I can't tell you how bad I hate that. I think that should literally. Should be illegal. That anybody can tell anybody else that God.

Anna Schreyer [03:39:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:39:31] You know, told them what another human should do. But on the other hand. And it sounds like that was ultimately potentially fatal to your faith, because if you're told that your whole life, then when it doesn't work out, it all falls.

Anna Schreyer [03:39:49] Yeah. So I. That's exactly. That's exactly it. So I spent like a year. No, I'm so sorry. I spent two years. I bought a house in Ogden at that point. Cause I was just like, forget it. Like, I'm not going back to Mozambique. I'll buy a house. I remember my parents being like, like, wow, like, we're so proud of you. That's awesome. But like, how are you gonna go back to Africa now? You know, like they were kind of like, you just signed up for a 30 year mortgage, like as if houses can't be sold, but whatever.

John Dehlin [03:40:18] Or rent it out.

Anna Schreyer [03:40:19] And. Yeah. And so I, I got a house and then I was like really struggling to the point where like, I didn't want to be at church. But again, I don't want to tell anybody. I don't want to do that because that doesn't feel safe. I don't want to tell anybody that I'm struggling, but I really don't want to be involved anymore. But at my parents church, like we are expected to serve. I was a worship leader. So I was there every Sunday helping out with whatever. It's like a very, very involved process.

John Dehlin [03:40:49] And so were you on the payroll? Were you getting paid?

Anna Schreyer [03:40:52] No, no, I wasn't. And so. But I was, yeah, just offering a lot of time and a lot of that, like I did enjoy as a kid. Like I'm so endlessly proud of like that building. And like we didn't even talk about that. Cool. Fun interlude. My parents building is an old Mormon like an LDS meeting house and it was dedicated by Heber J. Grant. So that was really cool.

John Dehlin [03:41:17] So we got converted into an ag chapel.

Margi Dehlin [03:41:21] Yeah.

Anna Schreyer [03:41:21] And we renovated the whole thing, but it's super cool anyway.

John Dehlin [03:41:23] And you were part of that renovation?

Anna Schreyer [03:41:24] Oh yeah, that was us.

John Dehlin [03:41:26] Our.

Anna Schreyer [03:41:26] Our family was. It is a continuous renovation. It was built in the 30s, so like that's what we did. And I'm really thankful for that actually because I learned a lot of skills like through that. But we were the team, like, because my parents did not ask for a lot of help. They were really big about not manipulating people, not. They didn't want people to feel. So it was us.

Anna Schreyer [03:41:49] And we did get help. But for the most part, unless somebody offered, we weren't really gonna ask. And so we were this squad, tearing out, laughing, plaster painting, scrubbing floors, all the things. So anyway. But yeah, so back to 2019. I'm by the house, I'm doing the thing. And then I finally just decided like, okay, I'm not gonna get any answers on this whole thing unless I go and do it by myself. And it has to be a me decision. Has to be a me choice.

Leaving the Church and Discovering Leadership Misconduct

Anna Schreyer [03:42:21] But me choices don't really fly in the environment that I'm from. So I again make up. God told me. God told me that I'm gonna move because I just decided I Need to get away. It wasn't that they were bad, but I needed to get away from my parents to decide on my own what I believed.

Anna Schreyer [03:42:43] And I wasn't gonna throw it completely out. I was gonna go to a church. I was still gonna try, but I was like, it's gonna be my choice. So a little bit of a, like, close your eyes and like, point to a map situation. But some. Some thought went into it. Picked a church 2,000 miles away that I thought, this seems like it might be my vibe. Seems like it might be up my alley. Young pastors, like, heavily tattooed. He's was a part of the music scene, specifically, like Christian metal scene. So I was like, yeah, got it. No problem.

John Dehlin [03:43:19] It's an ag church.

Anna Schreyer [03:43:20] No non denominational.

John Dehlin [03:43:22] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [03:43:22] Yeah.

Anna Schreyer [03:43:23] It was an early, like, just started church plant, like a year prior to me moving there. So I sell my house in Ogden and I move 2,000 miles away to northeast Tennessee, and I move out there. And I unfortunately kind of just went into default because I knew I needed community. I knew I needed, like a support system.

Anna Schreyer [03:43:52] I know how to do that. So I know that the best way to get community is by serving. So I went headfirst into serving in whatever way I could possibly do it. They bought a new building at the time, new to them. It needed renovating. So I would work in the day, get off work, go straight to the church, and every day I would renovate this building with them. Just like, thought, this is gonna be the way to gain, you know, some community. It didn't really work that well, to be honest. That was the most shocking thing I remember. I was there every night, and the first Thanksgiving I spent there, they.

Anna Schreyer [03:44:31] The week of Thanksgiving, I'm there doing the stuff, and we get packed up for the night, and they said, okay, everyone, have a. Have a good night.

John Dehlin [03:44:41] And you didn't even get invited to Thanksgiving dinner?

Anna Schreyer [03:44:44] No.

John Dehlin [03:44:44] And you're renovating their church?

Anna Schreyer [03:44:46] Yeah. And I was sitting there like. And nobody asked me what I was doing for Thanksgiving. Nobody. My boss at the welding shop I worked at was so sweet. He asked me what I was doing for Thanksgiving. I said, I don't. I don't know. And he was like.

Anna Schreyer [03:45:02] He goes back into his office, calls his wife, comes back out, he's not Christian. Comes back out. And he said, I cannot let you spend Thanksgiving by yourself. Invites me to his house for Thanksgiving with all his family. Like, what? How did a non Christian meet me in a better way than this Christian church that I'm like, not a nobody I'm every day giving everything. I bought a house in Tennessee that needed renovating as well. And I'm in the process of it.

Anna Schreyer [03:45:35] Nobody came to help still. Nobody has come to help. They, like, just. I kind of thought in my head, like, if I help, then maybe it wasn't why I was doing it, but it was an afterthought of, like, maybe they'll come and, like, help me. And they. They didn't.

Anna Schreyer [03:45:53] And I ended up getting a job working for people from the church that was a renovation company. And they were helping all these other staff members. I wasn't on staff, but they were helping all these other staff members. So I thought, like, it'll get to me at some point. And they had told me, like, you know, all these things. Anyway, I'll go back a little bit. But I ended up. There was a lot of chauvinism at this church, and it was something I was not accustomed to. I was not used to any sexism, anything like that. That started to rub me the wrong way really, really badly.

Anna Schreyer [03:46:26] So over the course of my time with them, I'm like, kind of freaking out. And then I'm also recognizing. I listened to the rise and fall of Mars Hill.

John Dehlin [03:46:38] Yeah, I love that. Tell people what that is.

Anna Schreyer [03:46:40] Yeah. So Christianity Today actually did that podcast. It's incredible, but it is about a man named Mark Driscoll who started a megachurch. Well, it became a mega church in Seattle. And his thing was like, we're gonna come in and we're gonna dominate. It was about, like, complete culture shift because Seattle was supposed to be like the most, like, unchurched city. And so he's gung ho, becomes very, in a word, tyrannical.

Anna Schreyer [03:47:10] He's incredibly sexist, incredibly harsh and abusive. And so they kind of of go over the entire story of that and just how much the power kind of got to his head because he became big very quickly and was kind of a young.

Anna Schreyer [03:47:26] Shouldn't have had that much responsibility, in my opinion, at his age. Shouldn't have had that much responsibility. I listened to that and I'm seeing some red flags in my own pastor. And I'm going, oh, shoot, this is. This is happening. Like, it's. It's happening right now. I'm in. In a Mars Hill esque situation because I just saw some really crazy red flags. And I had started, like asking a bunch of questions. For one. They didn't have a local board. That really bothered me.

Anna Schreyer [03:47:58] They didn't have a local board. They didn't have transparent finances, which Is something I was not used to. In my parents church, they are required every year to hold a business meeting and disclose to the penny everything they spend. So I'm like, where can I see your finances? I'm tithing and I'm giving more to your. I was giving additional money to their renovation projects. And so I'm like, where are your finances? Not seeing it. So that was problematic. Then the blatant, like you very clearly see, like, men. This is the men house. They have men's prayer every. Every Sunday at 7am Women are not invited.

Anna Schreyer [03:48:40] And really what it is is it's a boys club and they get to talk about events that are happening in the church and nobody else gets to hear about them. And I remember I went to a new members meeting and somebody asked like, I think it's so good that you have men's prayer, but what do you have for women? And the pastor laughed and he said, what we have for women is men's prayer.

Margi Dehlin [03:49:04] Whoa.

Anna Schreyer [03:49:05] And I started to get really, really worked up about it. And I met with one of the pastors at his house. I said, hey, I'm having some problems. Like, I'm wanting to leave real, real bad. Like, I need to hit the door. But I want to give you the opportunity to maybe clarify some things before I make snap judgments. So can you explain to me why it is that you don't have any women leading unless they're leading children, like, what's going on there? And he was like, well, you know, we here at the altar, we have four. I'm so sorry I just said what the name is.

Anna Schreyer [03:49:41] But whatever. We have four, you know, core beliefs that we go by. And it was like, honor, spiritual authority. And then it was like one other thing. I can't remember what. And the last one, he literally said, male dominance.

Anna Schreyer [03:50:02] I was like, hot. I stood up from the couch, I had my hands on my head. I said, I can't do it. And he goes, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, wait, wait. That's not what I meant. That's not. And I'm like, what could you have possibly meant?

John Dehlin [03:50:15] Put lipstick on that pig.

Anna Schreyer [03:50:16] Yeah. And he goes, no, it's.

John Dehlin [03:50:18] Ah.

Anna Schreyer [03:50:18] There's another. There's another word for starts with a C. Let me fill you in on something. Complementarianism is just a code word in evangelical Christianity for sexism. Point blank, period.

John Dehlin [03:50:36] The idea that men and women complement each other with different responsibilities.

Anna Schreyer [03:50:39] And it's roles, but not roles in a cool way that's supportive and you pick what's best for you and I'll pick what's best for me, and we'll come together. Like, that's great. Roles are important, but, like, gender roles that, like, you do this, I do this. I'm the big dog. You support me. That's it. So I looked at him and I said, complementarianism. And he was like, yes, that's the word.

John Dehlin [03:51:00] Thanks. I was forgetting the word.

Anna Schreyer [03:51:01] I forgot the word. And I'm, like, sitting there in my head going, okay, there's no way the words male dominance would have come out of your mouth if you didn't believe them, because that's so repulsive. That's, like, such an insane two words put together that I was like, you've got to be kidding me.

Anna Schreyer [03:51:26] So I decided that I was gonna leave, and I knew how to leave because I wanted to do it respectfully and kindly. It was just gonna be a. I gotta get out. I go to the secretary and I said, I need to schedule a meeting with the pastor.

Anna Schreyer [03:51:44] She tells me, that's great. And I said, please do not tell anyone, because I don't want anyone to get wind of me leaving. Not for my sake, but for theirs to be. Like, I'm not stirring up any drama, because if people are cool here, that's great. I'm happy that they're cool.

Anna Schreyer [03:52:01] The. The day before this meeting, he gets up on the stage, this pastor. He knows what the meeting's about. He knows that I'm leaving. And he gives a sermon that is called 4 Bad Reasons why People Leave the Church.

Anna Schreyer [03:52:17] And he rips me apart in front of everyone. Starts talking about feminism, starts talking about when worship leaders don't get their way. Starts talking about, like, he. He's, like, trying to guess at the reasons and get ahead of why I'm leaving before I even get the chance to talk to him.

John Dehlin [03:52:37] It's damage control.

Anna Schreyer [03:52:39] Oh. And it was brutal because I wasn't. Like, I was sad about leaving because it was my community. Like, I didn't. I wasn't angry. I was like, this is sad that I don't agree and I can't be here anymore.

Anna Schreyer [03:52:54] And he goes off on this big tangent in front of everyone. And at that point, I was working for a company, and I had told the company because it was run by church members. I said, hey, I'm going to be leaving the church. I've already scheduled a meeting, but I need you to tell me if I'm going to lose my job.

Anna Schreyer [03:53:17] Like, do I need to look for another job? Oh, no, no. That's what like, that's not how this works. And, like, your family is totally. That's crazy. So go through that sermon. I meet with him anyway. I meet with the pastor, and I said, I don't. I don't honestly know why I'm here. And he was like, what do you. What do you mean? I said, well, it seems like you kind of got everything off your chest already, and you've already made assumptions about why I'm leaving.

Anna Schreyer [03:53:47] And I said, but that I just need to let you know that was incredibly hurtful. And he said, well, I was worried you were going to think that it was about you. And I said, well, actually, multiple times during the sermon, four times you said, if you think this is about you, it is.

Anna Schreyer [03:54:04] And I just scheduled a meeting with you and told you that I was going to be leaving the church. And suddenly you come up with four bad reasons why people leave the church. And they all kind of are like, quasi about me. So I don't know how. And it's a big church. There's like a thousand people in this church.

Anna Schreyer [03:54:25] And so I leave, and they're telling me that they're going to help me with my house. This renovation company that I worked for, they told me to rip apart a bunch of stuff, get it all prepped, rip it apart, and then we'll come in and we'll help you finish it. So I demo out my bathroom, I demo all these different things, and again, Thanksgiving week, they fire me.

Anna Schreyer [03:54:51] Don't give me any, like, reasoning. I kept asking, like, what. What's happening? Like, why is this? What did I do? And they're like, well, we feel like it's a God thing. Told me it was God that told them to fire me. And then I. I had said, like, well, can I ask, like, when these conversations started happening with God, and he was like, well, unfortunately, it is. It did start around the time that you left the church. And I'm like, okay.

Anna Schreyer [03:55:27] And at that point, I, like, I get fired from my job. I have nothing. I've ripped apart my entire house. And now I have no community. Like, still to this day, I have no community in this place that I like to, like, moved, which is me. I chose it, but I moved my entire life there.

Anna Schreyer [03:55:48] And so I. I kind of was like. And seeing a couple different people through that, like, the pastor, like, he would, like, flip off, like, staff members and stuff and, like, do, like, just dumb stuff that I was like, oh, this is all sham. I was right. This whole time, I was right. Like, you guys aren't Serious. Because if you were serious, all the things that I was internalizing and, like, making a big deal about and being, like, holiness and following the rules and all this, like, you're not actually following it. You're just, like, spouting it from the pulpit. And so I realized, like, after I left, I went, I'm done.

Anna Schreyer [03:56:25] I tried to go to a church for, like, two seconds, and it just was, like, too painful, too raw. I thought, I can't do this. So stepped away, didn't believe, but still kind of held on to, like, a little tiny bit in the back of my brain that, like, maybe. Maybe it is true. And a lot of that had to do with a prophetic word that was given to my family about.

Anna Schreyer [03:56:53] Well, I don't have to actually say what it was about, but I will say he called us out by name. A person we've never met before called us out by name, said where we were from, names of our family members, very specific information that I was like, that's God.

Anna Schreyer [03:57:11] And I held on. It was the, like, last remaining bit of my faith that I was like, surely God is real. Because he knew all those things about.

John Dehlin [03:57:19] You would've said it at a church service.

Margi Dehlin [03:57:21] Yeah.

Anna Schreyer [03:57:21] Called us out. Hey, are there any shriers here? Does the name Schreyer mean anything to anybody? Oh, yeah. And the thing is, the kicker is he had written all of these words down, right? And he had told us before he started sharing the words, they were on his iPhone. He told us that he had actually prayed about it at two years prior, or, excuse me, a year prior at a conference in Australia. And he named out all of those things, and nobody responded. And the Lord told him, pocket those words for another time. Then he stands in front of this congregation, says, I'm going to name off these things.

Anna Schreyer [03:57:58] I got these words. It's timestamps. I got these words while I was in Australia a year ago, and the Lord told me that it was for another meeting. And when I showed up today, God said, remember those words from Australia? Pull that out. So he pulls out his phone and starts saying all these things. I believe people.

Anna Schreyer [03:58:16] It's my. I don't think of people being like, that's a. Like, a fraudulent person. I believed him to my core. Because I'm like, also.

Margi Dehlin [03:58:26] So

Anna Schreyer [03:58:29] I believe. So I believe in a God that, like, you don't do that, like, in front of people to that extent. Like, that's crazy. And especially, oh, my gosh. So it was really hard for me. So I believed people. And again, I Thought I was the fraud, not everybody else. So that was the last bit that I was like holding onto of like, maybe this all is true, but I'm pretty much done.

John Dehlin [03:58:53] And the words he said made felt prophetic to you.

Anna Schreyer [03:58:56] Like, it wasn't just the. It was. He called us out details by every detail. Where like my parent. He called my parents out and said, you're pastors. You pastor in Ogden, Utah. Oh, does this name mean anything to you? Does this called out really specific things

John Dehlin [03:59:11] as if he just got that from God?

Anna Schreyer [03:59:13] Yes, God told him and told him a year prior.

John Dehlin [03:59:16] Are you going to tell us later how you found. Found out that wasn't.

Anna Schreyer [03:59:19] Yes, I will. Yeah. So I leave the church, I end up starting dating, starting to date my boyfriend. And he's grew up evangelical but is no longer a believer. And I remember telling him, I don't know what I believe, but this is my last, like, hurdle. Like, I just can't. And he's like, really kind and didn't ever say anything. He was just like, yeah, that is crazy. You know, but in his head he's like, yeah, that is crazy. Like, no, really crazy.

Anna Schreyer [03:59:56] So he was really nice about it and never said anything. And time goes on. I've told my parents at this point I don't believe because all of the like, just normal stuff that people think of, you know, like I talked about earlier, Adam and Eve, Noah, the Exodus. Like, I'm like, that we don't really have any proof. Like, a lot of people leaving one place and going. So, like those kinds of things. I just went. I don't really have enough proof. So I don't really believe. But I didn't look into any of it because of this word because it's still dangerous to me. Don't go against that.

Anna Schreyer [04:00:31] Because what if it's real? And I'm scrolling through TikTok Jubilee. Dawn, that girl that I told you about, the one that married the abuser, it was that same man. His name is Sean Bowles. He gave her that prophetic word and gave her boyfriend.

Margi Dehlin [04:00:50] Oh, oh, I see. Wait to tell her to marry the

Anna Schreyer [04:00:55] abusive that did the same.

Margi Dehlin [04:00:57] That had that in the same person.

Anna Schreyer [04:00:59] Yep. So he was in Pennsylvania and he had another prophetic word that he gave. And. And he said so. And so I want to talk to you. Does the word jubilee mean anything to you? I heard that God was giving you a jubilee, like a jubilee year or something like that. And he's like, ha, ha, that's my girlfriend. They've been dating for like, A couple months at this point, and she's on TikTok telling this story about this guy who gave her this prophetic word. And I'm like, I know exactly who that is.

John Dehlin [04:01:29] Oh, wow.

Anna Schreyer [04:01:31] I know exactly who that is. That is the same guy. And she never mentioned him at first, and now she's mentioned him, but I'm like, I know exactly who that is. And so I.

John Dehlin [04:01:42] Is this guy's name publicly known?

Margi Dehlin [04:01:43] Yes. Yeah.

Anna Schreyer [04:01:44] Sean Bowles.

Margi Dehlin [04:01:45] Yep.

Anna Schreyer [04:01:45] And it's blowing up right now real big. There's a lot of yep right now as we speak.

Margi Dehlin [04:01:50] Yeah.

Anna Schreyer [04:01:50] Okay. And so I, for the first time, like, shaking. I just type in Sean Bowles allegations, and all of this information starts coming up of all these people that are proving that he got. He mined all of his information from social media.

John Dehlin [04:02:11] And he would know who would be in the crowd when he was.

Anna Schreyer [04:02:15] Because you register for conferences. They're paid conferences. You register.

Margi Dehlin [04:02:20] Oh.

John Dehlin [04:02:20] So he would get the list of attendees, mine information, and then Cole act like he was cold, revealing.

Anna Schreyer [04:02:29] Yeah. And it's like, very much like a cold like that. It's like, tale is all this time swindler's tricks. But, like, again, I believe. And I feel so dumb now, but I'm like, I was primed for that. There's no way I could have not thought that that was real. And so this is the first time I'm scared to death. I'm shaken, because it's like, you know. You know, do not mock God's anointed or whatever, you know, I'm like, oh, my gosh, I find it. And I got done with that, and I called my dad and I said,

John Dehlin [04:02:59] hey,

Anna Schreyer [04:03:01] did you hear about Sean Bowles? And he said, what did you hear? And so for reference, this word that he gave us caused a lot of division in our family for years. It was a really. Caused some big problems. Like, it was not good, and we had held onto it for a long time. And so I said, did you hear that he is a fraud and got all of his prophetic words from social media?

Anna Schreyer [04:03:38] And my dad just. Yep. And I'm like, dad, why you knew? Why didn't you tell me? I said, how long have you known? And he said, well, about two years. And I'm like, dad, Like, I said, why didn't you tell me that? And he said, well, I just didn't think it would help you at that time. Which, like, at the time, like, I wasn't even, like, two years ago. Like, I wasn't even really, like, struggling that I was just like, what?

Anna Schreyer [04:04:15] And it was kind of an in the know when I told you that my dad is, like, friends with the higher up. Like, it was an in the know kind of conversation. And it wasn't my dad's responsibility to call that guy out at all, but it definitely was his friend's responsibilities, and none of them were doing it. And I'm like, what is going on? And at that point, that was the. That was the floodgate where I went, okay, I'm done. And I bought Jesus Interrupted by Bart Ehrman. I bought Misquoting Jesus. I read Zealot by Reza Aslan, and it just all started crumbling. This is, like, four months ago that this happened.

Margi Dehlin [04:05:03] Wow.

Anna Schreyer [04:05:04] That I was finally able to be like. Because I was out of the church for over a year when this happened and then finally allowed myself to, like, really get into all of it. And it. It's, like, good that I did it in steps. I feel, like, glad, because I kind of had lot, like, let a lot of those beliefs fall before I got into, like, the nitty gritty of everything. But it's really difficult because I don't know if any of your listeners have, like, a CES letter for Christians. That would be nice because it's like, I'm finding these things and all these. And, like, this is all very new to me and, like, unraveling all this stuff. It's a lot.

John Dehlin [04:05:50] Well, the closest. I mean, Dan McClellan isn't bad. Yeah. So.

Anna Schreyer [04:05:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:05:55] Have you seen his stuff?

Anna Schreyer [04:05:56] I haven't watched all of it, so I started watching.

John Dehlin [04:06:00] Did you see the David Bakavoy stuff?

Anna Schreyer [04:06:02] So I haven't watched back. I need to watch back again. This is, like, such a. Wow.

John Dehlin [04:06:07] Four months.

Margi Dehlin [04:06:09] So fresh. It is so fresh.

Anna Schreyer [04:06:11] So lost, like, a lot of my faith, like, a year and a half ago. But four months has been, like, me really diving into.

John Dehlin [04:06:20] You can suspend belief but not process it. Right. And you can. Years of that process.

Anna Schreyer [04:06:25] And in the back of my head, I thought, maybe someday I'll go back, because I'm just hurt, and I'm just. You know, maybe I'll. I'll go back, but I'll go to a more, like, Orthodox faith where all this charismatic stuff isn't a thing. And. And that'll have to be fine. You know, there's like, those thoughts. No, like, it's. Reading Zealot was like, oh, my gosh.

John Dehlin [04:06:51] Well, what were the big takeaways from Zealot?

Anna Schreyer [04:06:54] So my understanding of what a Jewish messiah was. Was not accurate to what a Jewish Messiah actually was. And I always thought that the Messiah and divinity were hand in hand, and that is not true in Jewish culture.

John Dehlin [04:07:14] What is a messiah in Jewish culture?

Anna Schreyer [04:07:16] So Messiah, it is savior, but it was. Was more of a kind of a political figure, but someone that was going to help them with the restoration. And what is the word I'm looking for? I don't want to say resurgence, but for Jerusalem to be back into their hands.

John Dehlin [04:07:39] To get Jerusalem back.

Anna Schreyer [04:07:40] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [04:07:41] Isn't dying for your sins and atoning for your sins?

Anna Schreyer [04:07:45] Apparently not. Apparently not.

John Dehlin [04:07:46] It's helping the Jews get Jerusalem back.

Margi Dehlin [04:07:49] Yeah.

Anna Schreyer [04:07:49] And so reading it, it was like this really wild experience for me where I always thought. I shouldn't say always. During the process of me, like, deconstructing, I kind of thought, well, maybe someday I don't believe in this because I know enough about the Bible to be like, it's not real. Like, reading through Bart Ehrman and things like that to be like, I don't trust it. But I think there's a lot of wisdom to be gleaned from it, which can still be true. But when I read Zealot and reading that, it is really about an oppressed Jewish man, that Jesus was an oppressed Jewish man that just was doing the same thing that many people before him had done, that he was trying to just, like, under the thumb of the Roman Empire, just trying to get back the land that he felt was theirs and claiming these things.

Anna Schreyer [04:08:47] That, for me was like, I have nothing to do with this. This is a culture and an issue that has nothing to do with me. And I don't think that I'll ever be able to go back to the Bible and read it in that way. Or at least the New Testament. Well, probably the Old Testament as well. It's not really my favorite anyway, to go back and be like, it's not my story. This has nothing to do with White Anna that lives in America. It has nothing to do with me. And it's still a beautiful story. And I understand it. And I understand, like, that it was like.

Anna Schreyer [04:09:41] I guess it was. He was still a strong figure that I get, but, like, boy, does he have nothing to do with me in 2025. Nothing. Yeah, that was difficult. That was. It was. It was, like, really relieving, too. Like, I read it and I was like, okay, well, check, I guess. And there's a lot of, like, grieving with that.

Anna Schreyer [04:10:09] But at the same time, it is really relieving because it costs me so much. My Christianity costs me everything. And I think a lot of people think. I mean, you reference it all the time with LDS members that leave, but, like, they think that it's like, oh, you didn't really believe it, or you didn't really, you know, do the right things, or you must have had some double.

Anna Schreyer [04:10:32] No, I believed it so wholeheartedly and was just, like, desperate for it to be true, and so much so that it cost me everything and it would have continued to have cost me everything. So this is. This is very important. Like, and it's both ways where it's like, it costs me everything if I stay in. But I'm not making a flippant decision by leaving because it also is costing me so much to leave.

Margi Dehlin [04:11:01] Right.

Anna Schreyer [04:11:02] Like, I'm. I could have stayed the course. I could have had people come and help me with my house. I'm, like, stuck now, you know, Like, I have a torn apart bathroom that I have no idea how to fix with, like, you know what I mean?

John Dehlin [04:11:17] Right now.

Anna Schreyer [04:11:18] Right now, Right now. Because nobody ever came to help me. And I'm just like, I don't know why I would do that if it wasn't like. If it didn't mean something to me and wasn't important and wasn't, like, real to, like, why would I do that? That's so stupid. So for people who are, like, in Christianity and it's not really costing them a lot, and it's good and it's community, and I'm like, yeah, do that. That's awesome. I don't know how to do. I didn't grow up in a family that does casual Christianity. We don't do it. So it costs a lot. And it's not. It's not something I took lightly when I left.

Faith Crisis, Family Grief, and Life After Religion

John Dehlin [04:12:00] I think I may have noticed you starting to get emotional just a few seconds ago.

Anna Schreyer [04:12:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:12:04] Can you put words to what maybe was coming up for you then?

Anna Schreyer [04:12:09] Yeah, I'm, like, alone.

Margi Dehlin [04:12:12] Like,

Anna Schreyer [04:12:17] I'm alone and I'm in. I have my boyfriend whom I love so much, and, like, that is great, but I'm in a house that I can't finish and I can't sell it until I finish it because I'll lose money. And I'm in a community where I'm running into people from the church that I left and being constantly, like, reminded of, like, the hurt that they caused me and not being they one caused me hurt and then are causing, like, continual hurt by me not being able to leave and just being like, well, eventually I guess I'll get it done. And like. But it's just like.

Anna Schreyer [04:13:03] And then, like, my parents live 2,000 miles away. Like, what are they. And that's not really their job. I'm not saying it's anybody's job, but. But the fact was, is that, like, it really hurts that they had me do all those things. Like, they had me rip apart my house and told me, we'll be there, we'll be there. And then, like, in an instant, fired, gone, cut off.

Anna Schreyer [04:13:27] I mean, do not talk to me. And I'm just like, whoa. Like, that was an intense and abrupt change. And now I'm living every day with, like, the consequences of that on, like, both sides of, like, me choosing to do that, but then also them, like, cutting me off. So, yeah, it's really hard. It's brutal.

John Dehlin [04:13:54] It feels tragic to know how much time you've spent serving the church, sort of refurnishing, you know, churches, both the ones in Utah, and, you know, and that you're left with an un refurnished house or, you know.

Anna Schreyer [04:14:14] Yeah, that is a. Like, growing up, like, I wasn't. I don't know if it was explicitly said, but, like, I. I wasn't allowed to, like, feel that way, to feel like, man, like, I'm kind of getting, like, jibbed on the other end of this, like, and not knowing. Like, I don't. I don't. I don't know how to explain it other than, like, it is really hard now to. To realize that, like, I've been taken advantage of, like, my entire life and like, nobody, like, without, like, familial ties, like, nobody is, like, reciprocated. That.

Anna Schreyer [04:15:04] That is, like, brutal and not the Christianity that I thought I knew, you know? And, like, I know that there are people that have. Within Christianity, they have helped other people in that way. I have helped. I know it exists because I did it, you know, but I was the first to show up and volunteer and the first to, you know, spend late nights, you know, cleaning the church or doing whatever. And then to be like, hey, guys, I don't want to bother you, but if you could come help me, like, that'd be really nice. And just like, being left with, like, nothing is as brutal, as brutal.

Margi Dehlin [04:15:46] That is brutal. It's like you're living in this physical representation of your faith in not only that church you moved for, you know, but faith in those people, that community you were joining. And when they said, gut it and we'll come help, and then you were let go. You were fired. It's like, now you're Gutted. You're gutted because now you don't have that faith in them anymore. Now you're seeing and you're living in this. This place that's this past representation of how much you believed in them. Right?

Anna Schreyer [04:16:28] Yeah, that's exactly.

John Dehlin [04:16:30] It's almost like the house now represents how you're feeling now.

Margi Dehlin [04:16:34] Exactly.

Anna Schreyer [04:16:35] Gutted. Yeah. And realizing that, like.

John Dehlin [04:16:38] Like, in the state of your life now.

Anna Schreyer [04:16:40] Yeah. And realizing, like, it's something that, like, James, my boyfriend, we talk about it all the time where we're like, it's. It's just us. Like, that's like, we're the only ones that are gonna make this happen now. And that is, like, brutal in and of itself, too, to just be like, man, like, I've. I've been left with nothing. And I really. I didn't do it for it to be reciprocated. And if I would have done it to be reciprocated, I would have given up a long time ago when nobody did. You know, I would have stopped. But that was so. Yeah, I just keep saying brutal, but it really was.

John Dehlin [04:17:24] What keeps you from being able to just call your parents and say, hey, mom and Dad, I lost my faith for good reasons. Here's why. I got this shaft with this church that I came out to her to help. And here's what happened. Send me some money, fly out, help me fix this thing so I could sell it and, you know, get my life back in order. Because I'm in shambles, and I'm in shambles largely because I followed this faith tradition that you raised me in. Help me out.

Anna Schreyer [04:17:52] Yeah, I probably wouldn't have added the last bit on there. She was like, yeah. And then the last me. I mean, I think throughout this podcast, you. Through this episode, you can tell that I'm pretty protective of my parents because I do love them so much. And they haven't been perfect by any means, but I.

John Dehlin [04:18:11] But they sound like pretty good people who are pretty good church.

Anna Schreyer [04:18:14] They really are.

John Dehlin [04:18:15] Like, in some ways, they spoiled you for other churches. Oh. Because they ran their church so well.

Anna Schreyer [04:18:20] 100%. Yeah. They. I mean, I. They have offered, and I have, like, been like, please come. Can you do this? The reality is that they do live 2,000 miles away, and they have very busy schedules. Like, they pastor full time, and they travel full time for church stuff. And so that's, like, if I'm honest, a little bit of a sting as well, where I'm like, ooh. Like, I am yet again, like, not being picked over the church. And that's not to say that, like, they've told me that they will come, and I. And I believe them, like, that they're gonna help, but there's a lot of stuff that it's just not possible. And, like, they don't make, like, a ton of money being pastors, and they're like.

John Dehlin [04:19:10] They're not Joel Osteen. No.

Anna Schreyer [04:19:12] Oh, my gosh.

Margi Dehlin [04:19:12] And their resources of people are here. Like, the people that they might rally to help would be here, not there.

Anna Schreyer [04:19:20] Yes. So the proximity of, like, if I were to go through this, I think here, I think that my parents. Congregation would probably still help me. And I think that that has something to do with just the fact that I'm their daughter. So I don't necessarily.

Anna Schreyer [04:19:34] I wouldn't want to claim that for every person who would maybe leave the faith within their church. So I don't want to say. I think it might have something to do with the fact that I'm just the pastor's daughter.

Anna Schreyer [04:19:46] But, yeah, that's. That's really. And they. They have, like. I mean, my dad's come out, like, a couple times to, like, help here and there with little things, but, like, he's also getting older. Like, he's not able to do everything the way that he can, and then he doesn't have the. They don't have the funds to, like, just send my way and have somebody else do it. So it's like.

Anna Schreyer [04:20:09] Yeah, I don't sound like they're not willing because that's not the case. And I think they do feel for me in that way. But, yeah, it's. It's just like a lot of really rainy day circumstances, and it's so brutal

Margi Dehlin [04:20:25] that you have this again, like, playing it out. You're waking up to this physical reminder, everybody. Right. So you're, like, living just. It sounds. It really does sound brutal. Yeah. So sorry.

Anna Schreyer [04:20:41] Yeah. Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [04:20:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:20:46] So obviously, having heard of gazillion faith crisis or truth crisis stories or whatever, I get. I feel like. I feel deep empathy for what you're experiencing, and I can see why maybe Mormon stories would have appeal for you as well. I'll still ask you to answer kind of the questions that I think maybe your former self or your parents or faithful Mormons or Assemblies of God people would ask you. One would be, well, okay, one bad apple doesn't spoil the whole bunch. Okay, you had a bad church experience in Tennessee, but you know better than anyone that there are great churches like the one you grew up in. So don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. You know, you got offended and that's the worst reason to leave a faith or a church, you know, better. The church can still be true. You just had a bad one. You had a bad experience.

Anna Schreyer [04:21:47] Yeah, I think there's a lot of privilege that I have by being in my parents church and them being my parents. So I do believe that they're amazing, that the church is incredible. Do I believe that everyone has had that experience at my parents church and that they haven't made mistakes and that they haven't also, you know, hurt other people and people have felt similarly to the way I have felt? No. Like I'm not, you know, I can talk all day about how great it is, but like I know that there are people that have left my parents church from offense and from hurt.

John Dehlin [04:22:27] And so people are getting hurt all over. You're saying.

Anna Schreyer [04:22:31] Yeah, I think that it's common. And really it was for me the fact that my faith was so based, it was based in the experiential gospel. And so to look back on my life and be like, I know for me none of that was real. Like, especially like any feelings that I had, anything like that were absolutely ruined the first time I ever went to a concert and a Broadway musical gone.

John Dehlin [04:23:06] And this is the epistemology question because you, you realize that feelings aren't beliefs or knowledge and knowledge and beliefs aren't feelings, right?

Anna Schreyer [04:23:16] Yeah, it's really. That was incredibly difficult. And then, and then to, to kind of speak circularly to the Bible. Like I remember asking my dad questions about your feelings of being like, well, how do you know that those are true? How do you know that that's true? And it would be, well, we look to the Bible and you have to compare it to the Bible.

Margi Dehlin [04:23:39] Okay.

Anna Schreyer [04:23:40] Separate conversation. Okay. So we got these like problems with the Bible. We've got, you know, this and this and when I read this, it kind of didn't match up. And then this, I'd be like, what do we, what do we do with that? And it would be, well, you ask

John Dehlin [04:23:56] the Spirit, which is it?

Anna Schreyer [04:23:59] And it's very circular that like my feelings are based on the Bible, but the Bible is based on my feelings. That is a cycle that I don't know how to reconcile. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [04:24:14] So if somebody says, well, okay, so Assemblies of God aren't true, or you know, Charismatic churches aren't true, or speaking of tongues isn't true, but Trilutheran or Pentecostal or even, you know, Baptist or Mormon, you just, you had the wrong church. That's the problem.

Anna Schreyer [04:24:36] Yeah, I was on that train. I really was. I was on that train. When I left, I was like, okay, this charismatic thing happened isn't. Isn't for me. And that still would have hurt my parents if I came to them and said, hey, I'm just not going to attend like a Pentecostal faith church any longer. That still would have been painful. But then the textual criticism got in the way of all of that. Where I went, okay, it's for the

Margi Dehlin [04:25:02] zealot reading what you refer to as reading zealot.

Anna Schreyer [04:25:06] Exactly. And it's still an ongoing process. But it's so funny because I've talked to one of my siblings who's currently in seminary and they're like, really genuinely compassionate. Not, not defensive, but compassionate to be like, I want to help you, I want to answer your questions. But it's in a faithful setting that they're learning these things. And I keep recommending, like, can you read this and give me an answer to this? No. Here's a 30 minute video clip of somebody else that says that that person's wrong. I'm like, that you didn't read the book. Which, they're in seminary, they're reading a lot of other books. Like, they got zero time for this. But like, I'm just like, it fell apart to the core where now I really did. I believed that eventually I would go to just like a, a calm Orthodox faith. I love ritual, clearly.

John Dehlin [04:26:07] So you mean Catholic Orthodox something, Eastern Greek Orthodox kind of thing.

Anna Schreyer [04:26:12] I was like, something. I love ritual. And I like, it's good for me. I'm clearly like built. I am obsessed with the Patrick Mason series and him being like, I'm built for this. Like, I'm built for it. Like, it just fits this. Like. Cause aside from the performance of it, I still like really engage well with having people kind of like, tell me what to do. And like, a lot of that I have to like, get over now. And it's really good for me. But like, at the time that I left the church, I was like, yeah, I'm looking for that structure again. That'd be really nice.

Anna Schreyer [04:26:52] So, and then once I started going into like, historicity, especially the New Time Testament, like the Old Testament, I'm like, all day, whatever, oral histories. I get it. New Testament. I was like, we got no excuse. We just don't.

Anna Schreyer [04:27:06] Like, it just doesn't. It doesn't add up for me. And like, I'm okay with the Old Testament having some faults and flaws, but for our entire faith to really be based on the New Testament. And. And the problem is, too, that I was raised inerrant. If it's either everything or nothing, that's a bummer.

John Dehlin [04:27:30] I mean, and that's similar to why so many Mormons become atheists or agnostics. Is this totalistic belief 100%. When some of it falls, it all goes.

Anna Schreyer [04:27:40] Yeah. And it's funny because I had the conversation with my parents to tell them that I had lost my faith. And at that point, I hadn't gotten into all of the. The Bart Ermin of it all. And I. I had talked to them and just like, you know, well, I don't get the flood or I don't get, you know, again, just the typical things or, like, having a problem with, like, genocide or Passover or like, any of those things where I'm like, I just don't like it. Which I guess if it's true, it doesn't matter if you don't like it. So that's bummer for you.

Anna Schreyer [04:28:13] But there was enough other stuff that I was like, this just doesn't make sense to me. And I remember my parents saying, like, well, you know, like, I guess I just, like, don't. I don't really care if it was like a global flood or a local flood that was shattering to me, where I was like, no, no. My whole life. You cared. My whole life. Like, now that I'm leaving and getting out the door, now there's room to wiggle and to be like, well, you know. And like, my mom had said, like, well, you know, so you're just, like, not okay with not knowing. Like, you're not okay with having, like, a part of it that you just don't know.

Anna Schreyer [04:28:56] And I remember telling her, like, I just don't have the experience that everybody else seems to have. And if I. If I have stories in a book that are proven to not be true, many of them are proven to not be true. But then I'm also not hearing the voice of God. I'm not feeling his presence. I'm not receiving these things. I said, then what do I have?

Anna Schreyer [04:29:19] And she was like, well, if you're. She had said something to the extent of, like, in regards to my dad, like, if. If I only love your dad for what he does for me or how he talks to me and what he, you know, then, like, I'm missing out on, like, who he is.

Anna Schreyer [04:29:39] And I said, I love that, but with all respect, dad is sitting right There. Where is Jesus? Where is He? I don't have it. And I remember she said to me, she said, yeah, you're so close. You're almost there. And I said, no, no, no, no, no. Don't do that. Don't do the Christianese thing. I need to know, what is it? And she was like, yeah, you're just. You're getting there. Like, this is really. I'm like, whoa.

John Dehlin [04:30:09] What would be an answer that would satisfy you in that exchange?

Anna Schreyer [04:30:13] I don't know. That sounds stupid to be like, oh, well, she's going after something. She doesn't. But, like, if you can't prove to me that he's real and a lot. And I don't mean the historical Jesus, of course, like, that's fine.

John Dehlin [04:30:28] But the divine Jesus.

Anna Schreyer [04:30:30] The divine Jesus, if you can't proved to me that he's real. And then additionally, like, when I stepped away from the church, zero guilt, all of the, like. Like, it just lifted off of me where I was like, whoa, I could breathe for the first time. All of that, you know? And I realized, like, oh, this conviction that I've been feeling is community. It's just being in a community with people that are saying that I should feel ashamed or saying that I should feel this certain way. And, like, none of it was actually, like, Holy Spirit talking to me and convicting me. Because I have, like, no problem with, like, sitting at home on Sunday. I'm. And it's not this, like, rebellious. Like, I hate the truth.

Margi Dehlin [04:31:14] No.

Anna Schreyer [04:31:15] Like, I'm just, like, it wasn't real. And I feel so much better being away from it and not having to convince myself that I'm sinning at every turn. Like, I was one of those people that, like, prayed and all the time about everything. Constantly. I'm praying in the car, I'm praying at work, I'm praying on the way home. I'm not like, a say your prayers at night. Like, it is a constant. And then to feel like at that point, it's just any internalized message of I'm a sinful, shameful, bad person is what I hear the voice of God echoing back to me. That was rough.

Anna Schreyer [04:31:54] That was super rough. To be, like, I like so to. To be out of that is the most relieving thing. And it's not that I. Oh, that's not that I wanted to sin. I didn't care about any of that. Like, but, man, is it so relieving to not feel shame for just having an identity. That's crazy.

Margi Dehlin [04:32:20] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:32:23] So in Terms of like, so divine Jesus is a no for you right now?

Anna Schreyer [04:32:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:32:28] God, Yeah.

Anna Schreyer [04:32:30] I, I'm, I'm leaning obvious. Like, I think a lot of people lean agnostic. Just because I go, ah. I look at all this and it's, it's pretty doggone cool. Like, I don't know how, I don't know how to look at like the world and be like, nothing. Like, that's hard for me. And I'm like, also not going to make the mistake again of being like, this is it and this is what I'll believe forever. Like, I'm totally open to like changing my mind in the future, but where I'm at right now. Yeah, just agnostic. There's gotta be something. But as far as like Christian God, no. What about.

John Dehlin [04:33:12] Are you familiar with Richard Rohr or James Fowler do those things?

Anna Schreyer [04:33:17] I recognize them, but I don't know enough to.

John Dehlin [04:33:19] So James Fowler talks about these stages of faith and stage three is literalistic dogmatic faith. Stage four is kind of the dark night of the soul. Stage five is sort of recognizing that none of it's true, but that there's truth in all of it. And so it's kind of a metaphorical, mythical.

John Dehlin [04:33:37] Many paths up Mount Fuji, all churches, Buddhism, secularism, you know, Islam, crusade, they're all pointing towards something. It doesn't really matter which one you're in. Pick one bloom where you're planted. None of it's true, but all of it has truth. And just be a non literal believer finding community value and mythical value, but no real literal belief.

John Dehlin [04:34:06] But just take all the good. Kind of be a dual citizen, take all the good from it. Stay in your church, let them fix your house, don't tell them you don't believe it, but also, like, do what you want. Go to church when you feel like it, don't go to church when you don't feel like it, you know?

Anna Schreyer [04:34:25] Yeah. So was with you until the church thing.

Margi Dehlin [04:34:29] Also me.

Anna Schreyer [04:34:31] Also me. I'm like, yeah, that sounds great. Sign me up. No, I've actually been talking about it a lot with James because I'm like, I have to replace something. The tricky part for me right now is that because I had that scrupulosity, ooh, I gotta tread pretty carefully to not fall back into my default.

John Dehlin [04:34:54] You're saying it's not healthy for you

Anna Schreyer [04:34:55] to attend church just right now? I don't believe that that will be an always thing. I actually would really like to attend, like a Unitarianism kind of vibe. Like, I would like that. I Am really interested. I know you guys talk a lot about secular Buddhism. I'm just like, hold on, I'll get there. But right now, that would be the worst. Not the worst, but it would be a rough decision because I'm built for it, or I was conditioned for it even. It's hook, line and sinker for me. I will fall back into it so quickly.

Margi Dehlin [04:35:34] It's like gravity, you know, it's like gravity.

John Dehlin [04:35:36] It's like a meth addict hanging around, you know, trying to recover.

Anna Schreyer [04:35:40] Junkies, no joke. And I love it. I really do. I love religion. I love, like, a religious setting. I kind of dive into, like, anything I'm super into, which is kind of the Mormonism thing too. Like, I kind of go full force at things, and so I'm just being, like, really cautious to be like, yes, I would really like to do that someday. And that will be lovely the day that I am able to. But there's also just a lot of, like, grieving and hurt feelings that I have to work through first, too, because I don't want to, like, I guess, throw the baby out

Anna Schreyer [04:36:17] with bathwater on those fronts, too, where I don't want to go into, say, a congregation that's like pulling from different religions and be so hurt that I can't glean anything from it either. Like, it's like a either. Or it's like I'm either too vulnerable or too walled up. There's like a weird dance between that. So.

Margi Dehlin [04:36:36] Yeah, that makes sense. Let me ask you just directly about grief, if you don't mind. But, you know, I think there can be so much to grief, especially when it comes to really a high demand religion situation. But do you want to just list some things that right now you're feeling a lot of loss about? And then I was. I have a follow up to that.

Anna Schreyer [04:37:04] Yeah, I think loss of community is probably the biggest thing, and that's common for almost anyone. I think that leaves, like, a high demand religion. Loss of community is rough. Loss of deep, deep connection with people is heavy because this has been, like, a tough journey for my parents, and I don't, like, fault them in the slightest for how they've reacted to anything that I've told them or. But, like, in the same way that I'm hurting a lot, they are hurting a lot.

Anna Schreyer [04:37:51] This was not how they intended for their daughter's life to go. And so grieving that connection, at least right now, like, in the current moment, that is really hard, where I'm like, ooh, we were very Close because we had not only, like, religion, but just, like, shared experience and all of those things. Like, I. I was the child that traveled with them. I would go to these churches with them. I was kind of favored in that way. And so to be now pretty separate from them is hard.

Anna Schreyer [04:38:36] That is hard. And to feel very misunderstood, but knowing I can't explain everything yet, right. Like, that will be like, for them. That's. That's drinking from a fire hydrant. Like, it's too much. I can't. Like, again, I have, like, a very strong vein that runs through my life of, like, protecting my parents.

Anna Schreyer [04:39:01] And so to. Yeah, I just can't. Like, I'm being very cautious about the way in which. Cause it feels offensive. Like, even my interpretation of what I would say to them, I'm like, this has to be offensive to you. So that's been difficult to not have.

John Dehlin [04:39:19] So your losing your faith has kind of driven some distance or wedge between you and your parents.

Anna Schreyer [04:39:27] 100%, yeah.

John Dehlin [04:39:28] But a lot of that comes from you wanting to protect them or not offend them.

Anna Schreyer [04:39:33] I wouldn't say entirely, I think. I mean, in some sense, I did ask for some space on some things because I didn't. I didn't want. I was interpreting a lot of their kind of outreach to me as, like, almost coercion to, like, come back. I didn't interpret it as love, which, like, I may look back at it differently in the future. Like, and I can't imagine. And I'm not in their brain. I don't know what they were thinking. But I did ask them for some space, so that was me. But then I do think it is difficult for them. Like, you know, they.

Anna Schreyer [04:40:13] I don't think they want to open a lot of those boxes. And I think they're hoping. I know, actually know for a fact that they believe wholeheartedly that I will turn around and come back. They had a conversation with James about that and just had kind of told him, like, you don't even know her.

John Dehlin [04:40:36] Your boyfriend.

Anna Schreyer [04:40:38] They were like, you don't even know her. Like, this person that you're dating right now, like, that is not the Anna that we know.

John Dehlin [04:40:45] She's got a demon. Maybe.

Anna Schreyer [04:40:46] I don't know. Maybe. I don't know if they'd go that far. But they. They were like. And had kind of just. Just told. Told him that, like, you know, he needs to be prepared for when I come back. That is, is he going to be with me when I'm traveling the world? Is he. I mean, they The. The narrative that they have for me is still the narrative that they have. You know, they. So that was really hard, and it was really difficult to hear that. That was a conversation I heard after the fact. But they.

Anna Schreyer [04:41:19] They had said to him all of these things about who. Who I am, like, oh, she. She did this and she did this, and. And it was all things that I did, like, oh, amazing preacher and. And worship leader and, you know, doing all these things for others. And it was, like, so hurtful in that moment to be like, man, like, if you.

Anna Schreyer [04:41:41] If you had said, like, hey, do you know the Ana that's like, like, really giving. Do you know the Anna that's, like, really intelligent and funny and caring and empathetic and, like, yeah, if they would have asked, like, who I am, if they would have asked that question, like, he would have been able to be like, yeah, of course. Right, of course I know that, Anna. But it was all just like, what I did, not who I am.

Margi Dehlin [04:42:06] Right.

Anna Schreyer [04:42:07] That was. That was a hard one. And I. And I. I haven't had. I may regret, like, sharing. I haven't had that conversation with them since. And I think that they would agree, like, if I were to bring that back up and be like, hey, like, that really hurt. I think that they would come to be like, oh, you know, because that's like, something that we were kind of taught. It's like, you're not what you do. Like, but it's just. It's totally different thing when it's your kid. Totally different thing. And I can't pretend to understand how that is either.

Margi Dehlin [04:42:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:42:42] Are you able to share how of your three siblings, if any of them are faithful in the way that your parents would be proud? And I'm not asking you to tell other people's story. I don't know the situations, but I like to ask just to know if the body counts more than just one for your parents.

Anna Schreyer [04:43:01] No, I'm not the first by any means, but, yeah, my other siblings tend to ebb and flow. They still live here in Utah. And so I don't really know where they're at in their faith journey right now, but I know that I've talked to them at different points and it's been like, yeah, I think. I think I believe it. And then, no, it's all hogwash. And then, oh, well, maybe, you know, they're still teetering and balancing. And of course, like, community plays a huge part in that as well. And so I. I'm not the first, but I do. I Do know that that was like a. A secondhand that. That was a conversation that my parents had with one of my other siblings, who's very faithful, and they said, what have we done wrong? They asked him.

John Dehlin [04:43:48] So they're blaming themselves.

Anna Schreyer [04:43:49] What have we done wrong? Because, like, we have these examples of our kids stepping away, like, what did we do? Which is really sad to me. That's why I didn't share any of that, because that's all gonna. I shouldn't say it with certainty. I fear it would be internalized on their part of, like, man, well, we should have done this. And then it could have been this. And I hate that. So that's another reason why I don't. I don't want to share. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [04:44:19] So I was gonna follow up my question with just, how do you grieve? What does that look like? Because I think sometimes in religions that we're raised in, you know, grief can look really different or there's a lot of spiritual bypassing around a loss or grief. So what does grief look like for you right now? How do you process what you're feeling?

Anna Schreyer [04:44:49] Yeah, I'm just now learning how to do that. And it's been, again, the same process of, like, the last four months has been like, oh, and especially like, wanting to start a life with James and being like, I watched it's. Everyone needs to watch it. I watched your Intro to Thrive stories, the Coming home to myself. I watched that just recently. Like, it was the first time I'd ever. Because before it was like. Like, didn't mean anything to me because I didn't leave, you know, that was, like, so eye opening and really led me to believe, like, oh, I need to grieve this stuff. Like, it's going to be an ongoing process through life, but I need to grieve this stuff pretty heavy right now.

Anna Schreyer [04:45:39] Especially if I'm talking about, like, wanting to, like, start a new life with someone. Like, I need to grieve. And so it's been. It's been interesting. I tried to listen to grief meditations, like, you know, lead. I felt goofy. I really just. Honestly, I felt goofy. But I did find a song that is my story entirely. It's called Yoke by Medium Build.

Anna Schreyer [04:46:12] And it's a lot of paradox, you know. Like, I guess it was better than the alternative. But then there's all this dogma stained love, and I guess it was this. And it talks about being a missionary and giving your.

Anna Schreyer [04:46:26] Giving your youth to people and making lifelong friends that no longer acknowledge you, you know, it's like, this brutal but beautiful. And the chorus is basically the. That the yoke was so heavy. The yoke that I. That I had was so heavy.

Anna Schreyer [04:46:42] And that is my grief meditation. I. I kind of have made it a point to pick a topic, and I will sit in it, and I listen to that song on repeat, and I just allow myself to, like, weep. And I'm. I've started journaling as well, which is, like, a little jarring to me because I journaled so much as a missionary.

Margi Dehlin [04:47:07] Right.

Anna Schreyer [04:47:07] But I started journaling, and I've actually started because I've realized that I don't know how to journal if I'm not, like, talking to someone, because I was talking to Jesus before when I journaled. I've started writing to people that I'm, like, grieving, and I've started writing, like, almost letters to them of, like, what I wish they would know, what I wish they could. Could hear from me.

Margi Dehlin [04:47:32] I love that. Yes.

Anna Schreyer [04:47:34] And that's been, like, bummer central, but, like, really good. And even gotten to the point where I'm like, I think I'm gonna read this to them someday. Like, I think when I'm ready, like, I'm actually gonna. Cause some of them, I'm like, oh, I could do that. Like, it won't hurt them or it won't. Like, this is necessary, but to write it out was really important. So those are like. Like, I'm inching into the grief process, like, pretty slowly because it's only been, like, a few months.

Margi Dehlin [04:48:06] Yeah. It's so fresh because.

Anna Schreyer [04:48:07] Yeah, the bypassing is so real. Like, I realized that so much of Christianity is like, you know, someone dies, and then it's like. But we do not grieve as others grieve because we know we'll see them again, you know, and that's not, like, what I'm going through right now. But if something doesn't work out, you don't get the promotion. You don't get the. It's like, well, God had other plans. Like, you never get to grieve.

Margi Dehlin [04:48:34] That's right.

Anna Schreyer [04:48:35] Ever. And I have years of, like, just push down grief. That is. It's like. Honestly, I talk about it with James, and he's like, I'm. I don't know how. You're like, a functioning person. Like, I don't know how you go through life with all of this. Like, this is wild. But it's. That's what I was raised to do. So to untangle all that has been hard.

Margi Dehlin [04:49:06] Yeah. I can Imagine. Yeah, you're carrying a lot. So if it feels heavy, it's because it is, it is. Right. In grief work, oftentimes, you know, we talk about the processing side of grief,

Anna Schreyer [04:49:21] which is like the.

Margi Dehlin [04:49:24] You mentioning playing a song and getting the emotions out or journaling is very much on the other side. Oftentimes we talk about leaning into pleasure.

Anna Schreyer [04:49:35] Right.

Margi Dehlin [04:49:36] Because pleasure's like this amazing complement to the heaviness of processing. Processing allows you to. Which we want, but pleasure grounds you in the present moment and can give you breaks from this. Your head space kind of. Right. And it's also like a reminder of why we want to live really. You know, what would you say? Do you have moments where you're able to tap into beauty or tap into pleasure? And if so, where are some of those moments for you?

Anna Schreyer [04:50:15] Oh, few if any. Especially in regard to like the house and being like, I, I have now just kind of dedicated all my time to just trying to do it. I'm like watching YouTube tutorials, being like,

Margi Dehlin [04:50:34] what do I do?

Anna Schreyer [04:50:36] And so I haven't like, that was another thing that we had talked about where James had told me, like, you don't really get to have any fun right now. Like, this is like kind of like everything is intense, everything is heels dug in the ground.

Anna Schreyer [04:50:54] Serious, serious, like really heavy. And a lot of that is like self inflicted too. Like, obviously, like I'm choosing to go through processing grief in that way. Not in the, you know, fun way, but that other side of, of letting me feel those emotions. So I would say that the, the few little moments is we're fairly involved in our like, local music scene as far as like kind of heavy, like hardcore music. And so that is like a little bright spot for me of like getting to go to shows, seeing people. It's not, it doesn't scratch the surface of that, that religious community.

Anna Schreyer [04:51:43] It doesn't really touch it, but it's still like being like, oh, like I get to interact with people. And additionally, I had a friend through the music scene that is quite young, he's 18, some friendish, but he ended up getting kicked out of his house.

Anna Schreyer [04:52:06] And I was like, well, I don't have any of these rules anymore about like whether a man can live in my house, so come on in, like join the party and had him move in. And that has actually been like such a bright spot for me because there's like people in my house, like, exactly what I like wanted it to be.

Anna Schreyer [04:52:34] And he's stoked because he's like, I Have a place where my friends are allowed to come over. This is sweet. So he's got all these hoodlum kids. There's just piercings everywhere. They're so goofy and silly and I just love them. And they come over to my house and he's like, is it okay if they spend the night? I'm like, yeah. I'm like, I love hosting because I love serving people. So I'm like rolling out the mattress. I got all. I'm making up beds for them. And I'm so excited because it's just like such a beautiful thing to me to have even a semblance of community in my life again.

Anna Schreyer [04:53:09] Even though they're not on the same, they're not in the same part of life at all. But I'm just like, this is awesome. Like, welcome. Thank you for being in my home. And they always thank me and I never like, say it because it would be like way too much for them. But I'm like, no, thank you. You are bringing me a joy that I didn't have. So that's been really nice.

Margi Dehlin [04:53:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:53:45] I really appreciate all this vulnerability.

Margi Dehlin [04:53:46] Yeah.

Reflections on Mormon Stories and Closing Thoughts

John Dehlin [04:53:48] So in my mind, quick question. So obviously Mormon stories has been useful to you. And then I think about other high demand religions. Like Scientology has like Chris Shelton and Leah Remini and Mike Rinder, you know, may he rest in peace. And Jehovah's Witnesses have Lloyd Evans and J.T. and Lady C and kind of a vibrant ex Jehovah's Witness YouTube community and you know, and Amber Skora and then even the ex sort of Orthodox Jewish movement has Tova Mirvis and others. Like do the Assemblies of God have kind of a YouTube or TikTok or Reddit community of ex Assemblies of God people?

Anna Schreyer [04:54:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:54:36] To help people process like you process what they've been through.

Anna Schreyer [04:54:39] Yeah. So again, because it was like kind of held lightly the ag thing, that is not really my community that I would draw to. But like charismatics for sure. And there's like several like Reddit charismatic influencers. There's several like subreddits that are specifically to like a big church that we kind of all followed. Sorry, it's so hard to get into like the nitty gritty of it. But basically, yes, there are. I will say that.

John Dehlin [04:55:08] Which church can you say or do you not want to say?

Anna Schreyer [04:55:10] Yeah, Bethel. Bethel Church in Redding, California. That was. That is a very large global. I mean, think they are kind of the new hillsong. They've been around just as long, but they are moving it up in the Ranks as far as, like, music the same way that Hill so Song did. And they're actually involved in the kind of Sean Bowles. Like, they knew the whole time, covered it up. And just this week, they actually came out with a letter to be like, we did everything we could, but.

John Dehlin [04:55:43] And was he not just defrauding people? Was there abuse there too?

Margi Dehlin [04:55:46] Yes.

John Dehlin [04:55:46] Okay. Sexual abuse.

Anna Schreyer [04:55:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:55:48] Okay.

Anna Schreyer [04:55:50] This church, there's people that have been at that church, and. And they closely resemble my experience in the Charismatic world because they're all kind of tied together. Like, the ministry that I worked for in Africa, they are, like. They say that they're like a married ministry. Like, it's like, they share their values so closely. So.

John Dehlin [04:56:15] And what's the subreddit called?

Anna Schreyer [04:56:17] It's called Bethel Snark.

Margi Dehlin [04:56:19] Okay.

John Dehlin [04:56:19] Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

Anna Schreyer [04:56:20] So it's like. And I. That feels safer now that I've kind of deconstructed all of the, like, Bible stuff. The reason why Mormon Stories was so significant is. Cause it was like, it was so safe that I didn't put my walls up. Cause it wasn't about me.

Margi Dehlin [04:56:39] Right. It was distant enough.

Anna Schreyer [04:56:41] It was distant enough that I could glean from it, but it wasn't gonna. I wasn't gonna wall up and go, whoa, no, no, no, no. So, like, it's taken a while to, like, find those kinds of communities, and I don't necessarily know how long I'd even engage in those, because I honestly commend you guys for being able to do this for as long as you have. It's not fun to stay in this. Like, I've been in it for two seconds, you know, And I don't foresee myself, like, spending a long, long time. It's hard. Cause I care about it. So then that's also hard because when I care about things, I, like, dive into them.

Anna Schreyer [04:57:24] But I also don't want to stay in, like, anger or just kind of rehash things over and over again. I definitely like to go through the healing process, and of course that's ongoing, but I don't want to continue to, like, subject myself to.

Margi Dehlin [04:57:39] Yeah. I love that care that you're giving yourself. Yes. New. I'm here for it. I love it. Yeah. You deserve it all. Thank you.

John Dehlin [04:57:50] Okay. And just so that I can. I. I want to make sure I get a title right. Ex Assemblies of God wouldn't be your identity.

Anna Schreyer [04:57:59] No.

John Dehlin [04:58:00] X. What?

Anna Schreyer [04:58:01] Charismatic is fine.

John Dehlin [04:58:03] Ex Charismatic. Ex Pentecostal. Yeah.

Anna Schreyer [04:58:06] Also fine. I. I've. I've come to realize that A lot of.

John Dehlin [04:58:09] For your identity.

Anna Schreyer [04:58:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:58:10] What is it?

Anna Schreyer [04:58:11] Probably charismatic more than anything. Pentecostal is a little bit more. Just a little bit more like rules. That sounds silly because Pentecostalism seems so like, woo. But charismatic, the charismatic stream is. Is kind of wild west. Anything goes. And that was kind of how I was raised.

John Dehlin [04:58:31] Have you used that term as an identity marker? Ex charismatic?

Anna Schreyer [04:58:35] Not ex charismatic?

Margi Dehlin [04:58:36] No.

Anna Schreyer [04:58:36] I think I would say, like, just because everybody does, like, exvangelical, like that whole thing. But that. That's not even. I mean, it. It's only because it's a common thing for people to be able to use. It's not that it really hits.

John Dehlin [04:58:50] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [04:58:50] Yeah.

Anna Schreyer [04:58:51] If that makes sense.

John Dehlin [04:58:52] Okay. Well, we're like almost five hours in.

Anna Schreyer [04:58:56] I am so sorry.

John Dehlin [04:58:58] No, no. Why are you apologizing? This has been amazing and I just love this stuff and I really. I could go five more, but we were, you know, we set the goal of. Of three.

Margi Dehlin [04:59:08] Yeah, I know what I want to say to you. I'm not sure when I received the video. When we looked at the video, I think even in your outline, for whatever reason, I'm not sure why, but I did not realize that, you know, you're so fresh in grief. And so I just want to give you an extra. Thank you for coming when you're still. It's very raw, you know, it's a raw place to be. So I really appreciate you sharing, you know, today and just know that we are wishing you all the softness and support as you navigate, you know, this. This place of grief and a place that can feel like you have more rubble than really structures that remain for you.

John Dehlin [04:59:58] More rubble than reconstruction.

Margi Dehlin [05:00:00] That's right. Because it's so early.

Anna Schreyer [05:00:01] Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate that.

John Dehlin [05:00:05] And yet you said you did this for you, that like, telling your story is. Is it. Does it. Now that you're five hours in, does it feel healing?

Margi Dehlin [05:00:13] Literally? Yeah, that's so true. How are you feeling?

Anna Schreyer [05:00:15] No, it does. It's. It's, you know, you kind of go over it in your head of like, things you want to pinpoint and all those, and it got off track and didn't even go probably where I thought it would, but, like hit where it needed to.

Anna Schreyer [05:00:33] And so I feel very much so, like this was my. This. It sounds like my moment. That sounds kind of weird, but, like, it was very important for me to be able to do this and to not. To not hide anymore and to eventually to have a place where I can like, send people even of being like, I'M not ready to, like, when this gets posted, I'm not gonna, like, post it on my socials, you know, but eventually to be able to be like, I have this that people can look to and hear it in its kind of entirety. So thank you for allowing me to be here for as long as I have.

John Dehlin [05:01:13] And just to check in, is there anything that was on the outline or that you wanted to make sure got discussed or said that you want to end with?

Anna Schreyer [05:01:20] No, no, it's. I really. I really do believe that it, like, it hit where it needed to, so that's great. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [05:01:26] Thank you.

John Dehlin [05:01:27] And Anna Schreyer, if somebody just wants to reach out to you, contact you, maybe even help you finish that house, you never know. How would they reach out to you? Yeah, if you want people to reach out to you.

Anna Schreyer [05:01:42] Yeah, no, it's totally fine. Probably Instagram is easiest. I am baby Shrier, because again, that

John Dehlin [05:01:50] is S C S C H R

Anna Schreyer [05:01:52] E Y E R. Yeah, that's probably the easiest. Just like, they can DM me. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's a public page, so you can see it.

Margi Dehlin [05:02:02] So. Yes.

John Dehlin [05:02:03] Is that your Venmo, too?

Anna Schreyer [05:02:07] I don't know. Am I allowed to look at it?

John Dehlin [05:02:10] That's. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'll just. I'll just. If anyone wants to help Anna, I'm gonna give her a chance to find her Venmo. But while she's doing that, I'm just gonna say, first of all, Margi, it's so amazing always to have you along. So thank you.

Margi Dehlin [05:02:25] Yeah, I'm really grateful for this story.

John Dehlin [05:02:28] Did you find your Venmo?

Anna Schreyer [05:02:29] I did.

John Dehlin [05:02:30] What's your Venmo?

Anna Schreyer [05:02:30] It's nna Schreyer.

John Dehlin [05:02:34] So Anna Shrier.

Margi Dehlin [05:02:35] A N A with two N's. Yep.

Anna Schreyer [05:02:38] Yep. A nna. That's.

John Dehlin [05:02:40] Sometimes we have angel listeners and viewers that like, like to help people.

Margi Dehlin [05:02:44] So.

Anna Schreyer [05:02:45] Yeah, that's a lot, but thank you.

John Dehlin [05:02:49] And we'll add that in the show notes as well. We'll have Brooklyn add that and then. Yeah. Just what a treat that you'd come 2,000 miles away and that you cared enough about our community to share your story. And I just. I love all our viewers and listeners, but I do have a special place in my heart for the Never Mormons out there, because it just blows my mind when you. Who was the podcasting couple that I interviewed that do like humorous podcasts.

Anna Schreyer [05:03:20] Oh, you talking about Holly Laurent?

John Dehlin [05:03:23] Yeah. Yeah, you mentioned them in your. Yeah, you mentioned them in your outline. And when I did that interview, I Did it because a Mormon listener loved them and just thought. But like, as I do those interviews, I'm like, nobody's gonna really care about this interview. Who really is gonna care about. About some ex evangelicals who have a humorous podcast. And to think that, like, at really important moments of need, some charismatic assembly of God young woman at 18 or 19 was getting value from Mormon stories and it was helping them understand their own tradition and then like impacting their lives. That's super humbling and sobering and honest. It's the type of thing that keeps me going and absolutely. So it's so, it was so me. It's so meaningful. It's so, I don't know, validating, but also just heartwarming and touching that a never Mormon could be so touched by what we do.

Anna Schreyer [05:04:17] Yeah, I, I actually this leads in kind of perfectly. I wanted to mention that to you guys of just like genuinely, like, thanking you, because I think a lot of people can tend to think that maybe this is just like a content machine, that you're just finding stories just to create content.

Anna Schreyer [05:04:41] But I have listened for a decade now and I don't pretend to know you guys at all, but I think that you guys do bear the weight of consequence and that you do carry that and that it's, it's really is like a catered held thing, who you have on and what you choose to put out there.

Anna Schreyer [05:05:06] And so just from a never Mormon and from. I guess I don't, I guess I won't speak for anybody else, but from me, like, I just want to thank you guys because this was a like and has been and will continue to be like a balm to my soul of like, where I couldn't find it, it anywhere else. Like I, I couldn't find that exact right, you know, medicine and that. I found that in you guys. So I just wanted to thank you for that too.

John Dehlin [05:05:38] Well, thank you. That's very special. Thanks, Anna. All right, well, that's Honor Shrier, everyone. And thank you so much for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Want to thank Brooklyn and Julia and Maven and Gerardo and Margi and everyone that makes Yoba Stories foundation possible, including our board of directors. Thank you to our donors who make all this financially possible. We will be reimbursing you for your airfare and your hotel.

Anna Schreyer [05:06:11] Gracious thank you.

John Dehlin [05:06:14] And it's donors that make that sort of thing possible in addition to just operations. So thanks to everyone who's a monthly donor or an annual donor. And if you value this type of content and you're not supporting us and you want to see continue. Of course. We always just need to remind you that the way we make this possible is if you will just go to MormonStories.org, click on the donate button, become a monthly donor, we'll be able to keep doing stuff like this. We totally want more Never Mormons to apply to come on the podcast. If we did a whole series of Never Mormons and how we've helped them, we've got some in the works, we

Margi Dehlin [05:06:53] have some in the lineup already, and

John Dehlin [05:06:56] I don't think we could ever have enough. So you can go to MormonStories.org, apply to be on the show and we'll review your applications. We'd love to have you on or at least to apply. We can't have everyone on, obviously. And then it's always helpful to subscribe on YouTube, to subscribe on Facebook, on Instagram, on TikTok, to like these episodes and to comment on them. That always helps with the algorithms. So that's super. As well as your feedback@mormonstoriesmail.com we read your feedback, we listen to it, we love it, and we appreciate it. So support us when you can. And again, thanks for joining us today. Thanks again, Anna. Thanks, Margi.

Anna Schreyer [05:07:35] Thank you.

John Dehlin [05:07:36] And we'll just end by saying be good to each other, be kind to each other, and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care of.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.