Introducing Amanda Rae and the Kingston Group

John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I am your host for today, John Dehlin. It is November 14, 2023, and I'm here with my partner in truth and righteousness, Margi. Hey, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:16] Hey.

John Dehlin [00:00:17] And we are super excited for today's interview. This is someone we've wanted to interview for a long, long time. Her name is Amanda Rae, spelled R A E. Hey, Amanda.

Amanda Rae [00:00:27] Hello.

John Dehlin [00:00:28] For those who have no idea who Amanda is, there are several, let's just say, fundamentalist schisms of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints or the Mormon Church. We have covered, for example, the FLDS schism, the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. We've also covered the Allred Group. Here are Mormon Stories with Vance and Lance Allred. One of the major fundamentalist polygamous schisms that we have not covered yet on Mormon Stories is a group called the Kingston. I know them as the Kingston Group, and it's a particularly intense polygamous offshoot. And Amanda hails from the Kingston Group.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:15] I'm the first one. Sorry, what's that? I'm the first Kingston One you've had on your.

John Dehlin [00:01:18] Yes.

Amanda Rae [00:01:19] Wow.

John Dehlin [00:01:19] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:20] That's crazy.

John Dehlin [00:01:21] Yeah. And we'll get into what that is and what that means in just a second. But Amanda has her own YouTube channel at Amandarae R A E. She has also collaborated a lot with Shalice on Cult to Consciousness and with our friends at Growing up in Polygamy. But, Amanda, Ray, we're super excited to have you on.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:43] Yeah, I'm happy to be here. I'm excited.

John Dehlin [00:01:45] Yeah. So I guess if you were. What are the. If we were to give people who have no idea anything about the Kingstons or you, just to give them a heads up of kind of like some main themes we'll be covering in your story, what would you say?

History and Structure of the Kingston Order

Margi Dehlin [00:02:00] I can give a little background of the Kingston Group. I'm going to say it's the Order because when I talk about my story, I'm going say the Order a lot because we ourselves called each other Order members or the Order United, Order, whatever. So that's another term for it. But yeah, if I could give a little rundown of where what the. How the Order started and what the Order is, is unlike all those other branch off of Mormonism, we were the true Church of the Lord, of course. But the one thing that we had that none of the other churches had, that the Mormon Church fell away from was we believed in consecration and polygamy, which we believed that the Mormons fell away from.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:40] And we are going to carry those true teachings to the latter days. Right. So it was in 1935 when the order started. And originally it wasn't even a church, it was a just a co, op, the Davis County Co Op.

John Dehlin [00:02:54] So for those who don't know Utah or have never been Mormon, where's Davis County?

Margi Dehlin [00:02:59] I mean, I don't even know where is that?

John Dehlin [00:03:01] North of Salt Lake. It's like bountiful, kind of the Ogden Bountiful, Layton area. Is that right?

Margi Dehlin [00:03:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:06] Ok.

Margi Dehlin [00:03:07] I always thought Davis county was. Because we. I know it is bountiful area. But yeah, they all kind of just huddled together in that area. And they were very poor at the time. Right. This was after the Great Depression. So they're kind of huddling together. And by the. I want to say the 1980s, it started to be religion and they started. They wanted to. I hear mixed stories because I talked to a lot of people who were older generation members, but they claimed that they wanted that tax write off. Because you'll hear with my story, the very common thing that comes out in this group is bleeding the beast, which is taking advantage of the government. So then they become a church. But they originally started in 1935 when Brother Eldon started the order, the work order.

John Dehlin [00:03:50] Does he have a last name?

Margi Dehlin [00:03:51] Eldon Kingston. The Kingston Group.

John Dehlin [00:03:53] Eldon Kingston is the founder. 1935, he starts this co op in Davis county, which is somewhere between Salt Lake and Brigham City, north of Salt Lake.

Margi Dehlin [00:04:05] And it originally was that all religions can join. Like you don't have to be a specific belief, but the common thing was it was a lot of Mormons and people that still believed in polygamy. So then that became the thing because he himself had, I believe, four or five wives, Eldon. So polygamy became the big thing. But at that time, he did not believe in incest marriages. He did not believe in underage marriages until my grandpa became the leader. And then it all went to shit.

John Dehlin [00:04:35] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:04:35] But yeah, so.

John Dehlin [00:04:36] Yeah. Yeah. And so for today, we're not sure if we're going to do this in one part or two, but we're going to be talking about the history of the Kingstons. We're going to be talking about Amanda's upbringing as a member of the order, and then we'll be talking about what. What went wrong in terms of. Or Right. In terms of her leaving the order and then kind of how she's picking up the pieces.

Amanda Rae [00:05:00] Rebuilt.

John Dehlin [00:05:01] Yeah, Rebuild. Right. Okay. Yeah. So with this, maybe One part, or we may break it out.

Margi Dehlin [00:05:07] Sorry. If you ask me about the history, there's. There's so much. And I. And I. Because I do my YouTube channel and I interview a lot of different people who give me the information. So I'm like. I try to make sure I get all the information as accurate as possible. So just tell me if I'm telling you too much.

John Dehlin [00:05:19] Oh, okay. So this guy. So this guy who started it, his name again is Eldon Kingston. Eldon. And do you know how long he was kind of in charge?

Margi Dehlin [00:05:29] Yeah. So the crazy thing is, is because they were so into saving money and consecrating, they didn't really believe in doctors. So he died very young at the age of, I believe, 30, 35 or 30. He wasn't even in his 40s. He was very young. Had four. Four wives, I think five, but died early in his 30s. He was only so, like you think about was 1935. And I believe he died in the. I want to say the 40s, 40s, 50s, we could Google it, actually. But so, yeah, very young. He wasn't a leader for very long. And he died because they didn't believe in taking him to the doctors. They didn't think he was going to die. They actually thought that when he died, he was going to be resurrected. So they kept his body in a bathtub.

John Dehlin [00:06:16] Oh, my goodness.

Margi Dehlin [00:06:17] Yeah, that's how they really believed that he spoke for God. He was God's chosen person. So he only ran that place for a while. And whenever you talk to older generation order members, they always talk about how brother Eldon really knew because he didn't believe in the incest marriages and it was better back then, blah, blah, blah. I believe there was probably issues, too, back then. It's the fact that they believed that he was going to be resurrected. Left his body in a bathtub. I think there were some screws loose, I don't know. Or they weren't thinking, using their critical thinking. But you'll hear people saying that Eldon was better than the next leader. Who was my grandpa. Or tell.

John Dehlin [00:06:54] Was he also a Kingston?

Margi Dehlin [00:06:55] Yep. Ortel Kingston. Sorry.

John Dehlin [00:06:57] How is he related to Eldon?

Margi Dehlin [00:06:59] I want to say he's Eldon's brother. Half brother.

John Dehlin [00:07:06] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:07:07] From a different mom.

John Dehlin [00:07:07] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:07:08] I want to say that, but, yeah, they are related.

John Dehlin [00:07:10] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:07:11] So I want to say brothers, same last name, Kingston.

John Dehlin [00:07:14] And your grandpa's name again was Ortel Kingston. Ortel. How do you spell that?

Margi Dehlin [00:07:18] O, R, T, E, L, L. Ortell. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:21] Okay. Was there a Power. Do you know if there's a power struggle or if it was just obvious he was the next in line?

Margi Dehlin [00:07:26] So that one's a little iffy because it was back then. But I can tell you there becomes a power struggle in the next leadership. We'll talk about that in a second.

Amanda Rae [00:07:35] But.

Margi Dehlin [00:07:35] So Ortell becomes the leader. Everyone's still in shock that Eldon died. There were people that believed that, you know, they still should be believing in Eldon's teachings. There were women who wanted to still be married to Eldon, but he died so young. So they got married in proxy to Ortel. Does you know what that means?

John Dehlin [00:07:54] So Ortel took on Eldon's wives.

Amanda Rae [00:07:57] Yeah, kind of as Elden, but it's Ortel.

Margi Dehlin [00:08:00] Exactly. So they will be returned to Ortel or to Elden. They marry Ortel, but we're not going to be together in the afterlife. You're just basically a surrogate for my children that are Eldon's children. Yeah. It was so weird.

John Dehlin [00:08:12] Well, that's how Joseph Smith worked. When Joseph Smith died, his wife wives became temporary wives of other top church leaders. But the understanding was that when they went to heaven, they'd be Josephs, but in the meantime, they'd be Brighams or Hebers. So that's exactly what Joseph Smith did. Margi, you look stunned.

Amanda Rae [00:08:33] I know.

Margi Dehlin [00:08:33] Isn't that so weird you didn't know that? That stunned me because one of the wives never even married Eldon. On his deathbed, she wanted to be married to him, but he died. He had penile cancer. And then she told Artell, like, you need to marry me as proxy to Elden. And she's going to be with Elden. But Ortel, this is just stories. From what I hear, the family that was around him, Ortel didn't treat those wives as well because they weren't his wives. They were Elden's wife.

Margi Dehlin [00:09:01] Such a weird. It's like fairy tale land when I talk about it, I'm like, I can't believe that I came from that. And so Ortel becomes a leader. He had 14 wives. And this is where. When begins incest in the order. His first wife was his own niece.

Founding Leader, Incest, and Blood Purity Beliefs

Margi Dehlin [00:09:18] And I don't know if people question that or because he was the leader, he just got to do whatever he wanted. But his first wife, he got married to her like in his 30s, which is also weird because why was he so old getting married Old for that standard. But he marries his niece and could never, ever have a child live because of the incest.

Margi Dehlin [00:09:43] And so he was really upset about that. But he even still marries more of her sisters, tries to have kids with. I think he had three or four of his own nieces that he married, and only one of them could actually have children.

Margi Dehlin [00:10:01] And I think all of those children have some type of issue due to the incest. Then he also married two half sisters. I have a whole video on this where I have all the notes. So if I'm saying it wrong, I don't know if you can link that video somehow, but I have a whole video where I did all my research. I believe he married two half sisters and four nieces, but I might be wrong. It's in that area, though.

John Dehlin [00:10:31] Yeah. Okay. So it says. I'm reading. I'm reading Wikipedia. So Ortel was the son of Charles Kingston, who was just a member.

Margi Dehlin [00:10:39] Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So. So brothers to Eldon, because Eldon's father's also Charles. So. Yep, Ortel and Eldon are brothers.

John Dehlin [00:10:46] Okay. Yeah. So he took over 1948 when Eldon died of cancer. He became the leader of the Davis County Co Op. And he lived until. So. So Ortel lived until he. Until 1987. You were born what year?

Margi Dehlin [00:11:03] 95.

John Dehlin [00:11:04] So I actually never knew your grandpa. But he was your grandpa.

Margi Dehlin [00:11:07] Yep, my dad's dad.

John Dehlin [00:11:09] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:11:10] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:11:10] But you didn't know him. Okay. Okay. So keep. What else did you want to tell us about?

Margi Dehlin [00:11:16] I just. I really like to hyper focus on that. That's where the incest starts. I'm not 100% sure if he like the full story, but I know that they believe in direction. So he must have been directed to marry his first wife, which is his niece, and then he married Ladonna, who is a very prominent part of the order. A lot of people believe Ladonna ran the order and ran Ortel because Ladonna's sons end up being the ones who run the order today. And everyone knew Ladonna was Ortel's favorite wife. Everyone knew, like, Ladonna was known to. If another wife was in the front seat of the car with Ortel, she would open the door and yank the wife out.

Margi Dehlin [00:11:52] Like, I heard stories like this all the time growing up. People knew Ladonna was the top bitch. So a lot of people will debate was the order ran by Ortel or was it ran by Ladonna? So Ortel believes in the incest, believes in the direction, but gets very upset with the fact that he can't get these women pregnant or have these babies going to full term because of the incest. So he.

Margi Dehlin [00:12:21] I believe that the blood testing or the trying to figure out who can marry who started with Ortel. It definitely continued with Paul, though.

Amanda Rae [00:12:31] So then they start blood. The blood tests kind of emerged to try to rectify the problem around not being able to have children with family.

John Dehlin [00:12:44] So

Margi Dehlin [00:12:46] when Paul. So Ortel has his reign, right, he has all these issues. He couldn't figure out what it was he was getting. I hear stories of him doing testing on his own kids. Not 100% sure what exactly he did, but we do know that to this day. So Ortel dies, right? You said 1980 in the 80s, then Ladonna wants her son to be the leader. Paul. This is where the riff comes in, though. Ortel's brother Merlin was supposed to be the leader. Everybody apparently knew that his brother was the next oldest, was supposed to take the leadership, but it didn't happen. All of a sudden they give the leadership to Paul, who is ladonna's son. Not even her oldest son. There's a whole story on how that even happened. I don't know how much you want to get into that. But Paul becomes the leader and blood testing starts happening.

John Dehlin [00:13:40] Can I read a little bit from Wikipedia just because I didn't know any of this. None of this. It Sundays. Throughout the 1940s and 50s, Utah carried out an extensive campaign of legislation, raids and arrests in an attempt to break up plural families. Now, I knew about that, but I think of that as mostly being in like Colorado City, you know, southern Utah kind of thing. For the Davis County Co op, this culminated in a Davis county grand jury investigation in 1959 and 1960. Described by the Ogden Standard examiner as, quote, the polygamist hunting Davis county grand jury, close quote. This likely contributed to the cooperative associating mostly within themselves. So they became very insular marrying within the group. And then it's got this word I've never heard before, including some consanguineous. Consanguineous marriages. And I'm assuming that's incest.

Margi Dehlin [00:14:44] Siblings.

John Dehlin [00:14:44] Yeah, I'm assuming that's a fancy word for incest because it means with blood.

Amanda Rae [00:14:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:49] So consanguineous marriages started happening as a result of the. Of the state persecution or prosecution of the Davis County Co Op. In the late. Let's see. In the late 1990s, some non members and ex members began claiming the practice stemmed from theories of genetic purification. So sort of some sort of white supremacy kind of thing. Do you wanna talk about that?

Margi Dehlin [00:15:17] Yeah, sorry. That's why I Kept trying to reference back to Ortel and his first wife because my theory was always, oh, he's having direction that he needs to marry her. But also the blue blood. I should have remembered that the blue blood is where they believe or tell believes. And the Kingstons believe that the Kingston bloodline is directly linked to Jesus Christ himself. So they need to keep that bloodline pure because of, you know, the whole. You only. You only breed in the twelve tribes of Israel. And that's also what supports their racism. You don't marry outside of that race. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:55] And, you know, that's something that I know that the Joseph Fielding smith, Bruce R. McConkie family taught that Joseph Smith was a descendant, a blood descendant of Jesus and that there was the pure blood of Jesus and thus Israel in the veins of the blood descendants of Joseph Smith in the Book of Mormon. That's like the major theme of the Book of Mormon is the blood of Israel and gentiles versus the chosen.

Margi Dehlin [00:16:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:23] And so people might think, well, that Kingston stuff with blood lineage is crazy. Absolutely tied to Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon and the Old Testament. Because the Old Testament, the Jews are God's chosen people and it's all about the blood of Israel. Right, Right. So.

Amanda Rae [00:16:39] Yep.

Margi Dehlin [00:16:40] Yeah. So that's where it. And they get really, really hyper focused on that. It's almost like each leader that goes by, it gets worse and worse. They get very prejudiced. It's like a cult within a cult where you'll see, you will never see a Kingston woman like me. I'm a Kingston woman. Married down. That's what they call it that you have to marry up because you're marrying for your place in heaven. So you have to. That bloodline's so righteous. Right. So you have to marry a more Kingston man. The Kingston men can marry, you know, non Kingston or whatever, but the Kingston women are preserved for the Kingston men. They don't tell us this, though.

Amanda Rae [00:17:15] Wow.

Margi Dehlin [00:17:16] Yeah, wow. You can see very rarely a Kingston woman marrying non Kingston. But either she had to leave to do that or she had to fight tooth and nail to be able to marry who she wanted.

Underage Marriage and the Role of Women

John Dehlin [00:17:29] So women, Kingston women were encouraged to marry Kingston men.

Margi Dehlin [00:17:32] Yep.

Amanda Rae [00:17:33] To keep the blood pure for most Kingston men.

Margi Dehlin [00:17:36] But it's all based off of direction. So in the order. We're not allowed to hold hounds before we're engaged or get married to our wedding day. So. So when we get direction on who we're supposed to marry, it's like a premonition from God. We have to talk to the parents. And then the parent, like the, the husband or the man will come forward. It's a process of them coming forward, bearing their direction that they had from God, which I had that happen to me. But we'll get to that. Yeah, we'll definitely get into that. But that's the whole process. And if the leader says no, then it's a no.

Margi Dehlin [00:18:09] And, and a lot of the times, like, just like what I was saying with the blood testing. So there's someone in the order who is testing children to see which of which of Paul's kids can marry which of David's kids and their brothers, their brother's kids.

Margi Dehlin [00:18:31] And so they're blood testing David's kids and they're blood testing Paul's kids to see like which ones can marry each other to have the least defects. I don't even know if that's legal. Probably not. But because of this, because there's been so much marrying. And now at this point, we're not just first generation incest. Okay. We're on to like now fourth generation. The man that I was supposed to marry, he is so inbred.

Margi Dehlin [00:18:57] His mom is, is his dad's half sister. His parents are siblings. Okay. Which would make your mom your aunt and your dad your uncle. Right. Because you're your dad, you're your dad's sister's kid. But he's infertile now. He cannot bear, like, get anyone pregnant. Wow.

John Dehlin [00:19:15] I had no idea. I had no idea. And this is one of the three major polygamous groups you would mention within the Mormon context. And I had no idea about any of this. But let me read a couple, one more paragraph just. Cause I think it'll help inform a little bit of this discussion. It says Kingston. And when it says Kingston, now it's talking about John Ortel Kingston. It says Kingston taught his followers to, quote, seek their own direction when choosing who to marry. That's what you were just talking about. And to marry within the legal age of consent. Now that sounds amazing. Legal age of consent.

John Dehlin [00:19:52] What could be wrong? Then it goes on to say, for many members, this meant choosing to marry just after reaching legal age, which of course is going to be 18, right? No, it goes on. Which at times has been somewhat controversial. The legal age of consent in Utah has historically increased from 14 to 15 now to 16 with court approval in 2019. So prior to 2019, it was legal to get married in Utah at age 14 or 15. So that's kind of dark.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:29] And so child.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:30] Child marriage. Oh, yeah. All of my friends that I knew were married before, married, betrothed, or engaged before even 16.

John Dehlin [00:20:39] So 14, 15.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:40] Oh, yeah. And so a lot of the times what you would see is because they're so afraid of getting in trouble for the. There's so many red flags. Right. The incest, the underage marriages, the polygamy. So a lot of times they would either hop over to Idaho to get married or they would have a. What they call a spiritual wedding. Then the woman would be, like, pregnant and having her first kid by the time they go and get their, like, legal wedding. And then obviously, like my dad, he has three wives. You can't legally marry three people. So he legally marries the first wife. And then my mom is a spiritual wife.

John Dehlin [00:21:14] And why Idaho, was Idaho even more lenient?

Margi Dehlin [00:21:17] I think Idaho was lenient on the cousin marriages. I think a lot of cousins went Idaho.

John Dehlin [00:21:24] Okay, let me just finish this out. Plural relationships with anyone under 18 is prohibited. I guess that means now. I don't know.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:33] Well, well, so there is a law with plural. And. And so they have been more careful about making sure the next wives are adults. But there's also been. They've been really shady where they will legally divorce their first wife, who's like 20 something, to legally marry a teenager as the second wife, but legally the first wife. Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [00:21:56] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And then it says, for decades, the cooperative has publicly joined with many others in speaking out against child bride marriages. And the DCCS has a policy encouraging its members to marry within the legal age of consent. In a recent lawsuit, defendants allege abuses occurred in some marriages in the group. Some defendants were as young as 16 when married, which is within the legal age of marriage in Utah. Okay, that's a little bit of the background.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:24] Yeah. The DCC Society, Davis County Cooperative Society Society. They have their own website now, and they're claiming on there that they don't ever support underage. That you can go on there and see that. I. Every time I read through them, like, lies, lies, lie, lie, lie. But it's just. They're trying to cover themselves because they are under a lot of heat for so much incest. So much. People are speaking out so much now, and they. They have to keep trying to. How are you going to do it? You're going to have to just keep lying.

Amanda Rae [00:22:48] Yeah, they're trying to, like, control the narrative.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:50] Right.

John Dehlin [00:22:52] Okay, so this John Ortel guy, he's your grandpa, right?

Margi Dehlin [00:22:55] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:22:56] And then who took over after Ortel?

Margi Dehlin [00:22:58] Yeah. So when Ortel dies, then his Second wife, Ladonna's son, Paul.

John Dehlin [00:23:02] Paul, yeah. So his second wife's son Paul takes over.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:06] Right.

John Dehlin [00:23:07] Did you know Paul?

Margi Dehlin [00:23:08] Oh, yeah, Paul Kingston. I shook his hand. I have pictures with him.

John Dehlin [00:23:11] I haven't been your dad.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:12] My dad's half brother, though.

John Dehlin [00:23:14] So he's your uncle.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:15] Right.

John Dehlin [00:23:15] Or your half uncle.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:16] Right.

John Dehlin [00:23:17] Okay, so Paul takes over. Is there anything else we should talk about in terms of Kingston history before we jump into your story? Anything significant about Paul's reign?

Amanda Rae [00:23:28] Yeah, that. Did he bring something in particular was he known for? Not.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:33] Yeah, I think it was just mainly the blood testing and he did get very into. And I can share this clip with you if you'd like. It's a recording of Paul talking about. Because you imagine a polygamous cult is going to have a lot of old single married men because all of these women are being given to these righteous men. So then all these non worthy men are going to be single. So they're running low on women. You won't see very many single women at the age of like 20. Right. They're all taken up. So.

John Dehlin [00:24:09] Oh wait, Paul's still alive?

Margi Dehlin [00:24:10] Paul's still alive, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:11] Is he still the leader?

Margi Dehlin [00:24:12] He's still the leader.

John Dehlin [00:24:13] Okay, so now when we talk about Paul and I'm. Yeah, so I'm looking at a photo of him right now. Paul Eldon Kingston is his name. He is born in 59, so he's 10 years older than me. So he's 64.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:27] Yeah, he's pretty.

John Dehlin [00:24:28] And he's been leading the Kingstons ever since your grandpa died. Basically.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:31] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:32] Basically. And sorry, where I was going with that whole. Now there's all these like single men and then like the youngest women that. The oldest women that are single are like barely even 18. Right. They're all getting married up really, really fast. So Paul. I have this recording of Paul talking about giving a sermon to the men, telling them how to impregnate their wives with females with female daughters. Right. So like get your wife pregnant so we can have more daughters because we need more girls in this community because we're running out, like how to have

John Dehlin [00:25:04] sex in a way where a female will come out.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:06] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:25:06] Like stand on your head. Like, what's.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:08] Yeah, I have the recording if you want me to send it to you. I actually put it on YouTube and they tried to take the video down. They tried to get YouTube to take that down.

John Dehlin [00:25:15] What's the technique? Do you remember? Is it like. I have lots of lemon juice. Like it's got to Be something like that.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:22] It's probably something super weird, right? I can't. I'm trying to remember. It's got to be the timing that you're with your wife and the. I think it has something to do with position. I'll give you the recording. I think you'll like it. You'll love it.

John Dehlin [00:25:35] We'll have Julia include that in the show notes.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:38] Okay. So they're running out of girls. That's always a big problem with polygamous groups.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:43] Yeah. So Paul's been more known to try to get more women and then the blood testing and trying to kind of control what's being born. But now there is also a lot of ivf. It's very hush hush, but it's because everyone's sterile. No one can get pregnant. So there's a. And I don't want to say how true this is, but I heard it from multiple sources. In the Order.

Margi Dehlin [00:26:09] There's a story where a wife could not get pregnant by her husband because he was sterile. They go to the order clinic and they claimed that it was her husband's sperm they were giving her. In actuality, it was his brother's sperm that they knew could get her pregnant. And they basically lied to her and she got pregnant by the brother. I heard this story multiple times from multiple people in the group. Don't know. I can't say like I know for sure because I was there and I watched it happen. But I think there's a lot of stuff like that going down because they're so into procreating as fast as you can. So just get those babies out.

Amanda Rae [00:26:45] And it's like you have the sense. Desperate times, desperate measures. Right, Right.

Paul Kingston's Wives, Children, and Group Finances

John Dehlin [00:26:50] So Wikipedia says that Paul has accrued. He uses the word accrued as many as 40 wives with up to 300 children.

Margi Dehlin [00:26:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:58] Does that sound right?

Margi Dehlin [00:26:59] So I know of 27. I don't know that there's 40. I feel like it'd be hard for him to hide that. They would have to be like somehow spiritual, secretive wives, which. That's kind of hard to hide when you're a leader. Right. And you know everyone in the community. So he. I know for sure. I can name 27 of his wives. Which two are his sister. Wait, wait, two are his sisters and

John Dehlin [00:27:20] three are his nieces, meaning half sisters or half sisters.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:23] Yep. So. So sister from the same dad, different moms. So that means those children that he has with those women will only have one grandpa and two grandmas. So.

John Dehlin [00:27:33] So he himself has engaged in the

Margi Dehlin [00:27:35] incestuous him and all of his brothers. All of his brothers, I believe, have married at least one half sister. At least one.

John Dehlin [00:27:45] So that. That sort of worked its way into the doctrine that somehow incestuous marriages are, like, important. Yeah, Like God wants it.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:52] I feel like there had to have been some meeting that I obviously wasn't at because I wasn't born yet. There had to have been some type of talk where they. They expressed that it's important to marry within your bloodline. Because when I look at that time frame of Paul getting married and all of his brothers getting married, my dad's in that group, too. They all are married to a sibling. My dad's third wife is his own half sister. And so he has eight kids with his own half sister. And I didn't know this till I got older, and someone pointed to one of the kids in the family and said, that's your brother. And I was like, no, it's not. And then I find out later my dad is literally sleeping with his sister. Wow. In the name of Lord, though, anything for Jesus.

John Dehlin [00:28:35] Okay. Anything else about Kingston history or Paul before we jump into your story?

Margi Dehlin [00:28:41] I think that. That. I mean, we might bounce back, but is that okay if it's relevant?

John Dehlin [00:28:46] Well, when you. When it's. When it's an order. So is it never. Mormons won't know what the United Order is.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:53] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:28:54] I think of it as, like, socialism or communism where money is pooled. Everybody feels like they're financially working for the group.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:03] Do you want me to talk about the banks?

Amanda Rae [00:29:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:05] Like the financial structure.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:07] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:29:07] If you want.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:08] If you think that's important.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:09] Background. That's a really big part of it. Because as I was saying in the beginning of this, the two main rules is polygamy and consecration. Right, Consecration. They would always say, the LDS Church does not consecrate the way the Lord wants because they only do 10%.

Amanda Rae [00:29:23] Right.

John Dehlin [00:29:23] Tithing.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:24] Yeah, tithing.

John Dehlin [00:29:25] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:25] We are the true church because we consecrate it all. So all of our money is in a bank. You do have an account, but you don't have, like, a card or a credit card. And if you want to get money out, you have to do what? Like they say, call card line. You have to talk to someone, see if they can get the money for you. They can flat out say, nope, you can't get your money.

John Dehlin [00:29:44] And then you say, okay, really quickly, just so people understand this isn't like, weird tangential stuff. Joseph Smith established what was called the United Order. And Joseph Smith Wanted all finances to be in common, where he would control the finances. Now it didn't work out so well. And at some point either he or the Mormon church distanced themselves. But this united order law of consecration stuff is absolutely core Mormon doctrine originating with Joseph Smith.

Margi Dehlin [00:30:16] Right.

John Dehlin [00:30:17] So your leaders, your former leaders would have every right to say that the Mormon Church, the traditional LDS Church of today, has strayed by not living the law of consecration or the United order. Just so people don't think it's some fringe weird thing that didn't start with Joseph Smith.

Margi Dehlin [00:30:34] It stems right from, I mean, all of the teachings stem from Joseph Smith. I mean, maybe not the incest.

John Dehlin [00:30:42] I'm not aware of any, you know, Joseph Smith incest, but he certainly married 14 and 15 year olds and he certainly married sister pairs and mother, daughter pairs. I don't think that counts as incest

Margi Dehlin [00:30:56] because technically he's not related.

John Dehlin [00:30:57] Yeah, but he certainly married. I mean, he set a precedent of marrying mother, daughter pairs and sister pairs as, you know, some of his 30 plus wives. So I think that's a step towards incestual marriages.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:12] Right, right.

Amanda Rae [00:31:13] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:13] So it is true then. The consecration does come directly from that. And like I was saying, with the original leader, Eldon, it was originally like a storehouse. Everyone put their stuff in the storehouse and then you would share it. Right. And that's how they kind of survived in that time because it was after the Great Depression. But then it's evolved into Paul's time now where Paul seems to have all the money. He seems to have homes with pools in them and your neighbor over there is eating out of the trash. You know, like there's a very big discrepancy. You're not allowed to own your own home.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:43] It's very common to see someone work their entire life to pay for this home. And then the Order, when they die, the Order takes it and then their son will buy it back from the order. So it's like recycling this property over and over and over and over because it's the Lord's property. But really, who's getting the money? They're not sending it to Jesus. It's going straight to Paul.

John Dehlin [00:32:03] And that's how so many religions work is just. The leaders get rich, they get the sex. It's power. Sex and money. Right, right. They have the power, they have all the sex they want with as many women as they want, and they have the money.

Amanda Rae [00:32:15] It is striking to me though, when you're describing this idea of having to call a bank to see if you can get your money.

John Dehlin [00:32:24] Your own money.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:25] Yeah, it's your own money.

Amanda Rae [00:32:26] Like, there is something to it being current day that is just. It is like an alternate reality in a way. Looking back in time, it's still disturbing or kind of to look at Joseph Smith and to see, but to have it existing in the current day, it's extremely, like, confronting and striking.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:47] Right.

Amanda Rae [00:32:47] That it can work.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:48] I would always get so upset whenever any Mormons would, because I do my YouTube channel, and Mormons would get a little triggered and say, like, well, we didn't believe that. Why are you saying that? That's Mormon teaching. I'm like, we live the true teachings of Joseph Smith. This is what Joseph Smith was doing.

Amanda Rae [00:33:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:05] Yeah. What traditional Latter Day Saints don't understand is that many, many, many mainstream members of the LDS Church defect either secretly or openly to fundamentalism because they study things like the journal Discourses, Brigham Young's teachings, John Taylor's teachings, and they conclude. Or Joseph Smith's teachings, they conclude we're not living the true Mormonism. We've got a defect. So one of my. My very first polygamous interview of all time was a woman named Ann Wild, who grew up a mainstream Mormon, learned in study groups as a temple, married Latter Day Saint, married a man in the temple. In the LA temple, I believe was actually a secretary to, like, Ernest Wilkinson at byu, learned about polygamy, and as I understand it, her husband didn't want to practice it. So she divorced her husband so she could marry a polygamist.

Margi Dehlin [00:34:08] Wow.

John Dehlin [00:34:09] She married Ogden Kraut, who's a famous polygamist, like in the 60s and 70s and 80s, and raised her children from Ogden Kraut and from her first husband, I'm assuming, in a mainstream Latter Day Saint church. So to the. To her home ward, a regular Sandy LDS ward, she was just a divorced single mom raising kids, but actually she was a polygamist living the true law, but still attending the traditional Mormon church. And that's all over Utah. That's all over Utah.

Margi Dehlin [00:34:45] That's crazy.

John Dehlin [00:34:46] Yeah. Is that surprising you?

Margi Dehlin [00:34:50] It surprises me because Mormons have tried so hard to not have any polygamists be affiliated. Right.

John Dehlin [00:34:58] It's those crazy people down in Southern Utah, right?

Margi Dehlin [00:35:00] Yeah. But in reality, there's so much. And I honestly believe some of our group was going to LDS Church to take notes and bring them back. Yeah, I'm pretty sure, because there's some teachings. I was like, how did we learn these teachings that were being taught simultaneously in the LDS Church? Like Current stuff. So I think that they take pieces of it, but they. They are always staying true to. And they kind of act like, you know, those high school. High schools that are, like, rivals. They act like that with the Mormon Church, like they're. They're the worst, we're the best. And they would talk about how the temple. The Salt Lake City Temple, which. That's where Jesus is going to come back in, right?

John Dehlin [00:35:38] It depends on who you ask.

Margi Dehlin [00:35:39] That's true. But they said that as soon as the LDS Church stopped living polygamy, that temple went from white to gray. And they would take us on little field trips and show us how you. You Mormons turned away from the truth. But.

John Dehlin [00:35:51] And God turned the temple gray, the salvation temple gray.

Margi Dehlin [00:35:54] I remember as a kid thinking, whoa, it's true. But I never saw it before it was gray. Maybe it was always gray.

John Dehlin [00:36:01] Interesting.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:01] That is crazy, though, to think that there's. Was she. Was she still a polygamist?

John Dehlin [00:36:05] She's still alive and her husband died, but she still believes in polygamy.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:10] In polygamy, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:11] Yeah. She's a great person, by the way. Super smart, really kind, thoughtful. Yeah. Just beliefs. So what city is. And was Paul and the Kingston Group sort of centrally located? Is it bountiful?

Margi Dehlin [00:36:28] Is it actually. I don't know how much I can. I can probably say this. So the order owns a bunch of different businesses, one of them being Standard Restaurant Supply. Have you heard of them?

Amanda Rae [00:36:37] Mm.

John Dehlin [00:36:37] Mm. Is that a big restaurant supplier in Utah?

Margi Dehlin [00:36:40] It's pretty big.

John Dehlin [00:36:40] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:41] And we used to actually do church out of the back of Standard Restaurant Supply when we were smaller.

John Dehlin [00:36:46] What city is that?

Margi Dehlin [00:36:48] I want to say Salt Lake, but like West Salt Lakeish area.

John Dehlin [00:36:52] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:53] But then we. We grew as a community because we were. Everyone's having kids so fast. Right. And then they moved over to West Valley Ish area. They're still there today. I want to say Redwood road and almost 33rd south. Do you know where that is?

John Dehlin [00:37:10] Yeah. But when they call it the. The Davis County Co Op, that doesn't sound like Davis County.

Margi Dehlin [00:37:15] No, they didn't. They call it LDCC now. Latter Day Church of Christ. I mean, it's always been ldcc, but it originally started as Davis County Co Op. They.

John Dehlin [00:37:23] Do you know what city it was then that they were Bountiful. Okay. So it started in Bountiful. It's now migrated to kind of West Valley in terms of critical mass.

Margi Dehlin [00:37:33] Right. Yeah. Yeah, sorry. So I remember growing up in the Standard Restaurant Supply, but it originated in Bountiful like literally they lived in tents in Bountiful at one point. So then they migrated down to West Valley.

John Dehlin [00:37:45] And that's also interesting because Bountiful is known as one of those intensely orthodox Mormon cities where a lot of the apostles like Jeffrey R. Holland would have raised his family. And so the idea of Mormon LDS church apostles and Kingstons all living in the same city is kind of mind blowing.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:05] I really believe that there was a lot more community back then that we don't know about. Because upon more of my research I found that we were actually friends with. Do you know who Krishna Venta is? He was a leader. Who. Who's the guy that kind of started. Charles Manson.

John Dehlin [00:38:23] Charles Manson.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:24] Charles Manson was kind of a part of the cult of Krishna Venta or wanted to be like they were somehow affiliated. But Krishna Venta somehow knew the leadership back in the day and was affiliating with the Kingstons. I don't know how cults were just big back then and they were all in cahoots with each other or didn't like each other. Super interesting. And it would be interesting to know like how many people were actually involved in hanging out with the order and then realizing what it is and like getting out.

John Dehlin [00:38:50] Oh, okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:51] Because I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:38:52] And don't the Kingston's own like a waste removal company?

Margi Dehlin [00:38:56] Like yeah, they do A one disposal.

John Dehlin [00:38:59] I don't know, some big major Utah waste disposal. So like the flds, they have their tentacles in prominent Utah business.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:10] How many businesses does the Kingston clan own? And then they have Desert Tactical Arms. It's a gun company that they actually shot guns with. Donald Trump Jr. I don't know if he was gonna buy a gun from them or how he even knows them. But now that they've gotten so big, they. They have multiple businesses in multiple different areas. They have Arrow Real Estate. If you drive for five minutes here in Salt Lake area, you'll probably pass by a property they own or a business that they have.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:39] Redwood Road I feel like was the main hub for a while. They are taught to all of your incomes and outgoings in the name of the Lord. So you can only shop at order businesses. So John's Marketplace on Redwood Road is actually a order grocery store. And we were encouraged to only go buy groceries from that grocery store.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:56] But then if you just go down the street, there's advanced copy. They own that true value. They own that. It's just boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

John Dehlin [00:40:03] So I'm looking again at Wikipedia or YouTube. It says the Kingstons have amassed a fortune estimated to be $300 million.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:13] I believe it's more than that, so

John Dehlin [00:40:15] maybe half a billion.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:16] I mean, have you seen when Jacob Kingston went to prison for the fraud? So if you Google Jacob Kingston. So my uncle Jacob Kingston was a part of, was the like manager of wre. Washakie Renewable Energy. And what they were doing was that one.

John Dehlin [00:40:31] What is it? Renewable Energy.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:32] Washakie. Renewable Energy.

John Dehlin [00:40:33] What? Say it again.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:34] Washakie. Renewable Energy. Washakie. Washakie.

John Dehlin [00:40:37] That's the one that I had heard of.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:38] Yeah.

Amanda Rae [00:40:39] So.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:40] So the reason I believe they have way more money than the Internet will ever say is because this is the one time they got caught for tax fraud. What he was doing was he had this biodiesel company and he was, if you. For every gallon of biodiesel that you have, then the government will give you a dollar per gallon. They were lying about how much they were actually. They weren't even selling any. They weren't even making any. And they were able to steal 500 million, so half a billion dollars from the government in like a short amount of time. But it was all over the news. He ended up getting arrested trying to fly to Turkey. And then three, four people have prison sentences. Now from the order, I remember that

John Dehlin [00:41:20] name because when I would watch, when I go to the movies in Logan, yeah, there would be commercials for Washakie Renewable Energy. Renewable energy. So I learned that name and then I hear it in the news that they were associated with the Kingstons. But yeah, there's actually too many. I'm looking at all the holdings of the Davis County Co Op and there's too many to read like it's, yeah, 50, but.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:42] Yeah, that's what I'm saying. That number that they say is the money that they're worth, that's a low, low number because there's. It's not only the businesses. They have all these properties. They're really good about making it. Not linked to Paul. Right. So if Paul goes down, nothing's really in his name, so they can still keep that. You know, the bulk of what they have. They have a lot of pawns in the game. I feel like my dad is a pawn. Like they put my dad's name on things so that in case any of those businesses go down, then he goes down with them. You know what I mean?

Margi Dehlin [00:42:08] They're very smart. Sadly, in a dirty way, I heard they have one member of the order, maybe more, but there's one specific one that I know of that they. His job is to just see like holes in the system to see how they can bleed the beast more. So. So one of the things that they did is. Do you remember when Obama did this thing where first time home buyers get like $8,000 or something? When that happened, then they just had everybody sell their homes to a different member and then all of them are first time home buyers and then they all. They made millions. So just stuff like that.

John Dehlin [00:42:46] And I bet with these PPP loans, I bet you know these were the COVID grants and loans. I bet, I bet just like the Mormon church.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:54] Yep. They're all over it.

John Dehlin [00:42:56] That you guys probably made a ton of money off of the pp, not

Margi Dehlin [00:42:59] to mention, like we are born into. Sorry, this is probably the last thing that I want to talk about with, With. With lumping it all together. Right. We talked about the bank system. They're very big on like control on the money. But now that we're talking about fraud, my mom being the second wife and that whole raid you were saying, they're scared of getting raided for. For polygamy, so they claim that they can't legally be married. So my mom, on my birth certificate, I have a fake name on the father slot. So my mom's name is in there. And then Kyle Grant is in there.

Exploiting Government Benefits and Group Wealth

Margi Dehlin [00:43:31] I have no idea. Kyle Grant. Because she did that. Now where's Kyle Grant? They're trying to find him. Right. She's eligible for food stamps. There's a bunch of food stamp fraud going on in the order. Nobody knows whose kids these are. And they're applying for WIC food stamps assistance from the state.

John Dehlin [00:43:50] And for those who aren't familiar with the term bleeding the beast, it's just this idea that the United States federal government's evil because they make polygamy illegal. And they persecuted the Mormon church originally, but then the fundamentalist sects afterwards. And so what you want to do as a church is exploit the federal government as much as you can to get as much tax dollars from them as you can. Because the United States federal government is the beast. And by draining money from the beast, even if it's fraudulent, especially if it's fraudulent, you're benefiting your people at the expense of a government you hate. Right, right. Is that what bleeding the beast means?

Margi Dehlin [00:44:33] But I also feel like this whole not having the father's name on the birth certificate is a way for the men to get out of paying child support and actually taking care of their families. You will not see. Cause a lot of people will be like, wow, your dad has this many kids. How does he support all those kids? He doesn't. That's how. These men are kind of just glorified deadbeat dads.

John Dehlin [00:44:55] That's dark.

Amanda Rae [00:44:55] That is dark. Yep.

Amanda Rae's Early Childhood and Family Life

John Dehlin [00:44:59] Well, should we jump into Amanda Ray's story now?

Margi Dehlin [00:45:02] On that note? Deadbeat dad. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:05] What year were you born?

Margi Dehlin [00:45:06] 95.

John Dehlin [00:45:07] 95. Okay. And I guess. Who was your dad and who. Where was your mom in the order in the wedding? Marriage order, I guess.

Amanda Rae [00:45:19] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:45:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:20] And was she related to your dad?

Margi Dehlin [00:45:22] No. So I'll try to keep her story brief because it is. It's a long one. My mom's very interesting. She was not born into it.

John Dehlin [00:45:29] Oh.

Margi Dehlin [00:45:30] My dad married her older sister and kind of got her to join because Ladonna. And remember Ladonna, the leader's mom? Ladonna is my mom's dad's sister. So. So ladonna's my mom's aunt. So they were kind of affiliated, kind of knowing, because their own aunt married the leader. So they're like, oh, okay. So they're going to the church dances and stuff.

John Dehlin [00:45:51] So your. Your mom's aunt married Paul. The leader married Paul.

Margi Dehlin [00:45:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:57] So your mom's.

Margi Dehlin [00:45:58] Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. My mom's aunt married Ortelli, who was married to my dad.

John Dehlin [00:46:04] Okay, got it.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:05] But my dad's not related to my mom. Sorry. Every time I try to explain it, even I get confused. Yes.

Amanda Rae [00:46:09] I feel like the family tree. It's like next level family tree to dumb it down.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:14] Yeah. Or tell. Married someone who's related to my mom. And that's how my mom started going to church dances and stuff because she's like, oh, okay.

Amanda Rae [00:46:21] She's.

John Dehlin [00:46:22] Where was your mom raised?

Margi Dehlin [00:46:23] She was in Orem for a while as a.

John Dehlin [00:46:27] As a regular Latter Day Saint. She was raised LDs?

Margi Dehlin [00:46:31] No.

John Dehlin [00:46:31] In Orem.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:32] No. I. I believe that they were like branch offs of LDS or. I don't think my grandpa was really religious. She wasn't really raised religious, but I think that maybe his grandma or something was lds. There was some LDS lineage. I gotta go do some more research.

John Dehlin [00:46:50] On high school your mom went to. Was it Orem High or, like, Tim Fever? One of those. So she was raised without religion in the heart of Utah County.

Margi Dehlin [00:47:01] I mean, she wasn't a member from what she tells me, but she was invited to LDS things all the time. And she did partake, but she also partaked in the order functions. Like, she was allowed to kind of bounce around.

John Dehlin [00:47:14] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:47:14] If that makes sense.

John Dehlin [00:47:15] Okay. Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:47:17] And then she bounced into the wrong One.

Amanda Rae [00:47:19] Then she bounced directly into the family.

John Dehlin [00:47:23] How was she recruited into the order? At what age and how?

Margi Dehlin [00:47:26] Okay, so her sister marries my dad. They're living in the basement of the home that my mom's still being raised in. My mom was really young, was still like, I wanna say like a teenager when she's babysitting their kids. And then my dad has direction on my mom at the time, she's only 17.

John Dehlin [00:47:46] So you've already told us this, but your dad is married to both your mom and your mom's sister.

Margi Dehlin [00:47:51] My mom's older sister.

John Dehlin [00:47:53] Unbelievable.

Amanda Rae [00:47:54] Yeah, unbelievable.

Margi Dehlin [00:47:55] Can you imagine? I know. Every time I think about him like I could never. But she is a long story. But she gets coerced. I believe it was a lot of manipulation, A lot of God said, a lot of dreams, a lot of premonitions. She marries him at 17.

John Dehlin [00:48:10] 17 as a second wife.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:12] And then.

John Dehlin [00:48:13] And they're living where? In Orem?

Margi Dehlin [00:48:16] No, she. So now she moves into an apartment now that she's married.

John Dehlin [00:48:18] Right, and where's that in if you.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:22] West Valley, ish area. Emory. Do you know the Emory area? Okay, yeah. So a little tiny apartment. She gets pregnant with my older sister and they, they believe in at home births. So she's having all of her kids at home. This is her life now.

John Dehlin [00:48:35] And at the time is she living with her sister and their mutual husband in the same apartment or.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:40] No, no, no. So in the order that's what different in the flds, they all like get in one home together, right? In the order they have like the first wife is over in Taylorsville, the second wife's over in West Valley, the third wife. Cuz I believe if my mom lived in the same home as her sister, they would have beat each other to a bloody pole.

John Dehlin [00:48:59] Sure.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:00] So she was in an apartment in you know, Emory west Valley area. And then the first wife was over different home. And then she has me, who's the second oldest kid in this apartment at home, birth again. And we lived in this apartment, a two bedroom apartment until my mom had five kids. And finally my dad was like, okay, we can move you into a bigger

John Dehlin [00:49:22] home and please forgive me and free my audience because I really am paying attention, but. So your, your dad was not a Kingston, is that right?

Margi Dehlin [00:49:34] His last name was not my dad's. Technically his last name is Johnson, but he is technically Kingston because remember he's Paul's brother and the leader is his dad.

Amanda Rae [00:49:43] Right.

John Dehlin [00:49:44] Okay, so the leader was dad, but his last name was not Kingston.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:47] His mom was Johnson. That was her maiden name, and he just kept her maiden name. Johnson.

John Dehlin [00:49:51] But you don't.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:52] Kingston. But I'm Grant because I'm the second wife's kid, so I can't have his last name. So I'm Kyle, Grant's kid on my birth certificate. Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [00:50:03] So you're a Grant.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:04] His wife's family's Johnson. My family's Grant.

John Dehlin [00:50:07] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:08] Weird, huh?

Amanda Rae [00:50:09] Wait, it's so. It's almost like. Not like a cast system, but, like, it really is, like, hierarchy in families. Is that right?

Margi Dehlin [00:50:18] I feel like kind of there is a bit of a. A bit of a rift. Like, people wish that they could take the last names, but also it's a. We got to protect the men from going to prison, and you know what I mean?

John Dehlin [00:50:27] You're, like, doing quotes like, it's not.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:30] I don't think it's real. I think it's a way for them to get out of paying child support and getting food stamps and all these other things.

Amanda Rae [00:50:35] That's right. And even. Even I would imagine this, you know, not having, like, a commune situation, them actually giving space and. And having different families in different places makes it harder to track. It does. Harder to identify.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:52] Oh, yeah.

Amanda Rae [00:50:53] That this is going on. So in that way. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:56] Yeah. You think about it, like, because we have this different name on my birth certificate, how could they ever link it back to my dad unless my mom says it's him? And then the sad part is, though, is, like, then these men get away with so much, but they do claim because of that raid. Whatever. We're so afraid of getting prosecuted. But when is the last time a polygamist got prosecuted for living polygamy? Cody Brown's on tv, living polygamy. And I don't see him behind bars. You know what I mean? So I. That's why I really just believe that it's. It's all bullshit. They just don't want to have to have any accountability. And this is a good way for them to not have to do that.

Amanda Rae [00:51:34] Yes. It makes so many things covert.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:37] Right.

John Dehlin [00:51:38] Okay, so you and your dad have the Kingston blood in your veins, but your dad's doesn't have the Kingston last name. He's a Johnson.

Amanda Rae [00:51:48] Right.

John Dehlin [00:51:49] But you are a. A Grant.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:52] A fake last name. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:54] Grant.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:55] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:51:55] But you don't go by Amanda Grant right now. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:58] I mean, on my license. Yeah, I'm Amanda. Amanda Ray Grant. But I just go by Amanda Ray because Grant is a fake last name. And sometimes it feels weird that, like, that's that was just a made up name that my mom liked. And a lot of these women, literally, they're like, okay, well, I guess one girl loved Bradley Cooper, so she had her. Her polygamous last name be Cooper. So now all of her kids are Cooper's.

John Dehlin [00:52:19] Okay, so I think where we were in the store, your mom had five children.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:22] Yeah. So five kids in this apartment now,

John Dehlin [00:52:24] all in your birth order. Where are you in the birth order?

Margi Dehlin [00:52:26] The second one.

John Dehlin [00:52:27] Your second. Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:28] Yeah. So she has my older sister, she has me. She has my younger sister, younger brother, and another brother. And we're in this tiny two bedroom home. And what. I think a lot of polygamous families in the group did this, but my family specifically, when the first wife would finally. When the first wife would finally move out of her home into a bigger home, then my mom would move into her old home. So it's kind of like recycling the homes. So we moved from the apartment into. Sorry.

John Dehlin [00:52:55] What are some of your earliest childhood memories? Like, was your dad around? Were you going to public schools? Were people asking questions?

Margi Dehlin [00:53:04] This is a good question.

John Dehlin [00:53:05] Were you going to church? What was it like?

Margi Dehlin [00:53:07] All that church every Sunday, of course. And then I did not know who my dad was because again, fear of polygamy. Fear of getting prosecuted for living polygamy. So this guy would come over, we called him by his first name. I had no idea he was my dad because they told me he was not my dad. And I remember being very confused because I would see the first wife's kids come over and they got to call him dad. And whenever I got. Whenever I ran up to him, hugged him and called him dad. I was always corrected like, that's not your dad.

John Dehlin [00:53:36] What made you think he was your dad?

Margi Dehlin [00:53:38] Because I'm like, where is my dad? Then you guys obviously have a dad. Where is mine? And so they would point to my grandpa, my mom's dad, because he would be there a lot and they would be like, that's your dad. So I would just go call my grandpa my dad. And then eventually my mom was really frustrated because. Because can you imagine it being your sister's kids that get to call your husband dad, but not yours? So my mom was like, they're calling you dad. I don't care. But other families would call their dad uncle. Like they would know that it's their dad, but you have to call him uncle.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:04] In some cases it was their uncle, but so it's a way to protect them again. Right? So this guy's coming over to my house every two days, and then all of a sudden every three days. And I didn't know why.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:22] And come to find out it's because he married his own half sister and was having kids with her. And my mom struggled really bad with this because, like I was saying, she wasn't born in it. Incest was not something that was normal for her. So I believe she did lose a baby over this because she was so depressed over it. Which the sad thing in the order is they claim that you have to get direction from God and all the wives have to be okay with the new wife coming in. That's not the case, though. There's so many times where the men just marry who they want and they're like, it's none of your business. And I really believe that's what happened with the third wife in my family.

Amanda Rae [00:54:57] Wow.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:58] And sadly, because of this, and I think the first wife didn't like it either. A lot of our family pictures that we didn't invite the third wife, a lot of the functions, my mom didn't like the third wife being there. It was kind of like she was ashamed that her husband is sleeping with his own sister.

John Dehlin [00:55:14] So I don't know how much you know about, like, more traditional LDS Church scripture, but Doctrine and Covenants section 132 is the polygamy section in modern LDS Church scripture. So if you go to Doctrine and Covenants Section 132, Joseph lays out the.

Margi Dehlin [00:55:34] The Law of Abraham.

John Dehlin [00:55:35] Well, he. He calls it the new and everlasting covenant. That's how we know about it. But it's basically his teachings on polygamy. And in. We. We've covered it on Mormon stories in the LDS discussion series, but in DNC132, which again, is still scripture for mainstream Mormons today, it has this idea of what. What's called the Law of Sarah, which is that any existing plural wife has to give consent on a new wife that gets brought on. And that's what. That's the revelation that Joseph Smith received when he told Emma about the polygamy revelation.

John Dehlin [00:56:17] So, you know, it's interesting because people who go to fundamentalism from mainstream Mormonism do it trying to practice the real, you know, the real doctrine of Joseph Smith that would have been included in the real doctrine of Joseph Smith. But it doesn't sound like your dad practiced the law of Sarah, which is what Joseph Smith. But ironically, Joseph Smith didn't practice it himself. His first 20 wives, Emma didn't know about. I think his first 22 wives so even though Joseph received the law of Sarah as revelation, he didn't practice it.

Margi Dehlin [00:56:53] Right.

John Dehlin [00:56:53] So I guess not practicing it is on brand.

Amanda Rae [00:56:56] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:56:56] They're just doing exactly what Joe Smith said, I guess. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:59] Or did not said.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:00] What he said. He said the wives need to give consent. But it sounds like your mom and your. Your dad's first wife did not like the third wife being a sister to their husband.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:15] I don't want to speak, I guess, for the first wife or for my mom, but I know, I know that she did lose a baby over it, and I know, and I saw how she was with everything. I hate saying what my mom said just because it gets her in trouble back in the cult, but it was very, very obvious that the third wife was just a get out of here. You know what I mean? And I think it was something that was very. I mean, polygamy was very traumatic for my mom too, because I remember asking her and being like, how do you handle your husband leaving you for two nights and going to sleep with other women?

Margi Dehlin [00:57:50] And I think that she didn't like that I would ask her those questions, but I was expected to do that too. So I would ask her, how do you feel when your husband leaves to go sleep with not just other women, your sister and his sister? And she would be like, amanda, I just pretend that he goes on a work trip, and I don't think about it. And I think a lot of women in these polygamous cults, that's exactly what they do. They just don't think about it. Their husband's on a business trip, and they don't like people like me to ask and be like, how does that really make you feel?

Amanda Rae [00:58:22] Yeah, like, connect with yourself for a minute.

Margi Dehlin [00:58:24] They're like, I'd rather not exactly.

Amanda Rae [00:58:26] I think.

Margi Dehlin [00:58:27] No, there was multiple times where I was getting in trouble for. For asking those questions, but I was like, how am I supposed to be expected to live polygamy when you guys can't even stomach that you're living it?

John Dehlin [00:58:39] Yeah.

Amanda Rae [00:58:40] So can I ask, what age are you when you're asking these questions?

Margi Dehlin [00:58:44] This is when I was a little older, when I started to realize that who my dad was married to, and I did not like that he married his half sister. I did not. And so I was digesting it at, like 13, 14 years old. And this is also the age where they're really prepping you to pray for who you're supposed to be marrying.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:00] And then your friends, some of your friends are getting patrolled right and they know who they're supposed to be getting married to. So I was really digesting it and I was like, I can't do it. Me and my sister, we made a pact that we would never marry the same husband because we saw what it did to my mom and her sister. They were not close.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:16] And so that was a lot of like. I mean, you eat, sleep, breathe polygamy in the order it's all around you. You're not going to public schools. I was lucky enough to go to public school for two years. I went to.

John Dehlin [00:59:27] Which grades?

Margi Dehlin [00:59:28] Wasach Junior high was seventh and eighth grade.

John Dehlin [00:59:31] And what about elementary school?

Margi Dehlin [00:59:33] No, they have their own private elementary school.

John Dehlin [00:59:35] Where is that?

Margi Dehlin [00:59:36] It is. It's right by the church. So same area, Like West Valley area.

John Dehlin [00:59:40] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:41] Yeah. And if you've heard.

John Dehlin [00:59:41] So the Kingstons in Modern in 2023. The Kingstons have a private elementary school that they run for members in West Valley. Ish. Emory, Utah.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:53] Yeah. And they also have Vanguard Academy now, which is technically a public school, but they've been getting in a lot of trouble because they're not public. They're all Kingston students.

John Dehlin [01:00:03] It's like a charter school.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:04] Yeah. But they're claiming millions in funds, in public school funds. But they're like 99% Kingston kids.

John Dehlin [01:00:13] And that's in.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:14] In Salt Lake Valley, same area. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:00:16] Holy moly, I had no freaking idea.

Amanda Rae [01:00:19] Yeah. That's so controlled. That is such a controlled environment.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:23] Yeah. And it's everywhere you go every.

Amanda Rae [01:00:25] Like your home, then you go to school, then you.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:28] Everything, every day is about the work of the Lord. And we are the ones that are going to go to the celestial kingdom like you. It kind of breeds this, like almost narcissism a little bit. Like you think you're better than the outsiders because in God's eyes you are, because you have these true teachings. So we're really taught to like, obviously living in Salt Lake, you have to associate with outsiders if you have to, you know, get your car serviced somewhere. But it's taught to really not be friends with them.

Kingston-Run Schools and Controlled Education

John Dehlin [01:00:56] So you went to this, this Kingston owned and run elementary school called Ensign Learning Center. Okay. So you went to a school. You weren't homeschooled. You went to a school, but it was a school run by Kingstons.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:11] Right. And so a lot of the curriculum is so. People have told me that they have memories of like, Order members were told to rip out pages of the science book that talk about evolution. And so it's very like, filtered teaching for these kids. And Then there's obviously pictures of numbered men all over the lunchrooms.

John Dehlin [01:01:31] Of what?

Margi Dehlin [01:01:32] Numbered men?

John Dehlin [01:01:32] What does that mean?

Margi Dehlin [01:01:34] We didn't talk about numbered men. So the numbered system in the order, it's just kind of like a Brownie point system where in the beginning, when Eldon was the leader, he just numbered each person out that joined. So Eldon's number one, the next person number two. But now it's evolved to you. If you are righteous enough, Paul will give you your number. So my Dad's number is 36. Paul's number is 9. And so it's kind of just like this, this you got your ticket to heaven thing.

John Dehlin [01:01:59] And the lower the number, the more prestigious.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:01] Yeah, because it's back in. You know, it's the original numbers. So they still give out numbers to this day. They have number ceremonies. It's like a big, like, badge of honor thing. And I think there's. Do you know Tom Green, the polygamist? Tom Green?

John Dehlin [01:02:14] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:14] He joined the order and got the number 236. So it's where all. Sorry, 269.

John Dehlin [01:02:18] So he was a open polygamist during the Salt Lake City Olympics, like back in 2002. Is that right?

Margi Dehlin [01:02:25] Yeah, well, he. He was LDS. When you were telling me that story about the girl who left to be a polygamist about anti. Tom Green, same thing. He. He left and he bounced around, became friends with order members, and then at the end of his life, when he died of COVID he died in the order, they gave him the number 269.

John Dehlin [01:02:40] Oh, wow. Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:42] So he joined the order late.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:44] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:02:44] Okay, so your dad's number was what, 36. And that's pretty, pretty low. Right?

Margi Dehlin [01:02:50] Right. I think they gave numbers to Ortel's kids beforehand because they're like the Kingstons.

John Dehlin [01:02:57] Right.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:57] So my dad got 36, Paul got nine. Paul's brothers got. There's a 49 in there. There's a 33.

John Dehlin [01:03:03] I have never heard of this numbering.

Amanda Rae [01:03:05] Yeah, so when you go. You were saying when you go to elementary school, the numbered men are on the wall. How many numbered men are on the wall?

Margi Dehlin [01:03:14] I just remember walking into the lunchroom and it was all the way. There was numbered men on this side all the way around, starting from the lowest number to the counting up.

John Dehlin [01:03:24] And does it just say the number or does it say number eight?

Margi Dehlin [01:03:26] Yeah, number in their name. If you look up Paul Kingston, I think it will show the picture that they actually had on the wall. It shows, like, nine and Paul Kingston. If you do Google imaging, I think also Jacob Kingston. Same thing. Because I believe Jacob Kingston's number is 95. The guy that went to jail for wre washable energy.

Margi Dehlin [01:03:42] But it's the same thing. It's like a weird picture of them smiling. I don't know if they go to, like, a church thing, and they're like, hey, you got your number. Come take your picture. Like it's graduation. But they all have these nice pictures of them themselves. Like they're glorified in heaven in. In this Enzyme Learning Center. And then, though, with the numbering, I don't know if you'll find this interesting. I found it so weird. I was like, okay, so we're in the order. We have our numbers, whatever. But what about women? How come women can't get their numbers? Only men? And they were like, oh, you do have a number. So your Dad's number is 36. The first wife would be 3.6.1.

John Dehlin [01:04:14] What the.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:15] And you look at their graves.

Amanda Rae [01:04:17] The decimal system comes in handy for the women.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:21] Exactly. And then my mom will be 3.6.2, because she's the second wife.

John Dehlin [01:04:24] It's like the Dewey decimal system, but for women.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:26] But they really value these numbers so much that on the gravestones, like, if you look up my grandma Isabel Johnson Gravestone, you get 8.6. Because she was the sixth wife of number eight brother Ortel. Isn't that so weird? They have to have it cemented on their gravestone to show I was, wow, this is my ticket. Or I was a member of this. Of God's kingdom.

Amanda Rae [01:04:50] Yeah. There are all these ways that they kind of value or measure people, and then it becomes, like, part of your identity.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:59] Oh, yeah. Oh. We grew up with, like, we would get these shirts made that say I love 36. And we'd be running around with these shirts with 36 on them. That's how I knew whose kids were whose at a lot of the functions. Oh, they got 33 on them. They're David's kid. Oh, they.

Amanda Rae [01:05:15] Wow.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:16] So it's super interesting. But I remember getting older and being like, why does. Why do these men get numbers? Like, why does David Kingston get a number? When David went to prison for raping his niece and he got to keep his number, but it's because he's Paul's brother. Yeah.

Amanda Rae [01:05:29] I was gonna ask you that. If people can get their numbers taken

Margi Dehlin [01:05:32] away, if they leave.

Amanda Rae [01:05:34] If they leave, you get your number

John Dehlin [01:05:35] taken away, and then does the number get reassigned to somebody else? They recycle the number.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:40] Yep.

Amanda Rae [01:05:41] Just like the Homes you could do for your merch.

John Dehlin [01:05:44] So I'll just tell everyone you do merch. Where's your merch?

Margi Dehlin [01:05:47] Available at just cultytings with a z dot com.

John Dehlin [01:05:49] Say it again.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:50] J, U S T C U L T Y T I N G Z. JustCultyTings.com.

John Dehlin [01:05:56] you should have some shirt that's like, I love 36 or I don't love 36.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:00] Or a cross out on 36.

John Dehlin [01:06:02] Yeah, no, 30. Yeah. Like a cross at 36. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:05] I do have a shirt that says have you seen Kyle Grant? Cause that's my dad's name. I'm a birth certificate and I get people a lot in my DMs.

John Dehlin [01:06:12] Wait, I missed it. Have you seen Kyle Grant?

Margi Dehlin [01:06:14] Have you seen Kyle Grant? Because Kyle Grant's on my birth certificate. But I don't know, I'm not a real person.

John Dehlin [01:06:19] I get it, I get it.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:20] He's like, wait, what? So I'll get people DMing me on Instagram being like, hey, there's a kid in my school named Kyle Grant. Is he your dad? Like, it's a running joke. I'm like, find my dad, please.

John Dehlin [01:06:29] Oh, my God.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:31] I'll have to incorporate 36 now in there.

John Dehlin [01:06:34] Oh, my gosh.

Amanda Rae [01:06:35] We were talking about humor earlier as you know, a key way that you kind of cope and process. And we can see that.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:44] Oh, yeah, Definitely has been a way to help because when there's so much and there's been times where I left the cult and I'm just telling my life story and people will start to get emotional and I'm like, why are you crying? So I've kind of learned to like, to just joke about the things because to me, it's my life too. And it doesn't. Some of it doesn't really phase me, but to other people, my dad sleeping with his sister is like, jaw on the floor. Why is your dad doing that? And I'm like, I don't know, go ask him.

John Dehlin [01:07:12] Yeah, it's just what you're raised with, it's what you knew.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:15] Okay, so you grew up going to an elementary school where numbered men were on the walls.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:21] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:07:21] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:22] They were very glorified, that's for sure.

John Dehlin [01:07:24] And it, it's for high demand religions or cults. It totally is on brand that they only want you associating with other cult members because it's dangerous to be in school, for example, with non cult members.

Amanda Rae [01:07:38] Controlled information, no outside influences.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:41] Right. And especially not. I mean, they don't want you marrying someone who's not in your race, they don't want you marrying. You know what I mean? Like, they just want it to be very controlled to the point of. Even in school, they would have meditations at 12 o'. Clock. Like they just want to have you as brainwashed as possible. That's how it felt. But they would have meditation. So at 12 o' clock every day at school, the bell would ring and all the kids would have to sit down and do what they called meditations. Meditate. And they would tell us what to meditate for for five minutes, which is just like bowing your head and thinking.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:14] Thinking a prayer, basically. Yeah. And I remember them telling us to meditate for Brother David to get out of prison. This is the man who went to jail for raping his niece. But they told us that it was, you know, just multiple lies of why he was there. Like it's our fault that he's there or the government's just being prejudiced. In reality, he went to prison for raping his niece.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:35] But here I am being told in elementary school to do meditations to please help Brother David get out of prison and he's a numbered man. It's just so ironic. Like when I started to research this, this is when I started to have my eye opening moment. The polygamy. Yes. All of that other stuff. I was starting to have my eyes open and then reading the Bible verses that say, thou shalt not lay with thy sister. I was like, dad, what is this? What are you doing? But then going into researching why David actually went to prison and why they were lying about it.

Amanda Rae [01:09:06] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:09:07] Yeah. And that technique that Colts often use is called blame reversal. If a leader does something wrong or if a prophecy isn't fulfilled, the, the, the most powerful way for an organization to maintain commitment and support of its members is to blame the members for the bad thing that happened that was the church's or the leaders fault. But you got to blame the members and then they won't. They'll be less likely to question or rebel.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:32] It's like gaslighting at its finest.

John Dehlin [01:09:34] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:35] Yep. And it worked for a long time. I was like, I just didn't question it.

John Dehlin [01:09:38] So you're. Let's just say your elementary education and up through middle school before you switched, was it religious? Was it religion mixed with regular education? Were you singing hymns to the leaders? Did you have your own hymn book? To what extent was it traditional Mormon doctrine versus a different flavor of LDS theology? Talk about the indoctrination.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:02] Okay, yeah. So in the schooling, I Feel like it was obviously more school stuff. Like, you had your science, you had your math, all of that stuff. But they did incorporate the ABC order standards. So you would have your homework checklist. You'd bring home to your mom. And so you do health science. And then you'd have ABC order standards, which we have an order standard for each letter of the Alphabet. And we had to memorize those as a part of our homework. So I would say that the religious part of it was probably like, maybe 30. 30% of the school curriculum, especially if you were doing meditations every day, going home with some. Some order stuff. Right. But then the rest is like, teaching you things.

Amanda Rae [01:10:44] So what's an example of, like, ABC order the Alphabet kind of thing?

Margi Dehlin [01:10:50] A's for appreciation. I appreciate my life. I can't remember that whole one. It's a long one. But K is for kiss. I will say my first kiss for my wedding day with my husband or wife. Yeah, that was something we had to memorize as kids in elementary school. And I do remember the talk of direction and saving yourself for marriage was something that was brought up a lot in. I was like, first grade. I remember talking to my friends about getting excited about who we think we're gonna marry. I remember we all thought we were gonna marry the same person. We're gonna be sister wives with who marry who. We thought we were gonna marry one of Paul's sons.

John Dehlin [01:11:20] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:11:20] Yeah. Wow. So. And then I got older, and I was like. I grew a brain. But, yeah, at the time, like, there was a lot of Just talk about, like, be nice to everybody. Cause they might be your sister.

John Dehlin [01:11:31] Wife.

Margi Dehlin [01:11:31] Be nice to him. He might be your husband. Be nice to. You know what I mean? Like, it was just put in your brain so much in that environment. So in the schooling. Yes, it was. It was happening a lot with the ABC order standards. You have to memorize those. And then you go to church on Sundays, you had homework, then you had to get all the answers right. And the. What order standards or what?

John Dehlin [01:11:49] And do you remember any other letters besides K?

Margi Dehlin [01:11:53] K is for kiss. Let's see. I have the list, if you want me to give it to you. Z is for zest. I'm pretty sure.

John Dehlin [01:11:59] What does that mean?

Margi Dehlin [01:12:00] Something to do with modesty. M is for. I'm pretty sure. Modesty or marriage.

John Dehlin [01:12:05] What were the. Yeah, Did y' all dress like Fundy east down there?

Amanda Rae [01:12:08] And defining.

John Dehlin [01:12:09] Dressed differently.

Margi Dehlin [01:12:10] We couldn't. Because we were so big on blending into society because we wanted to be able to bleed the Beast too. Right. Like Paul, I believe the leader Paul was, had his fingers with, in with other businesses and other people and like, tried to keep this Persona that he wasn't a cult leader. Right. So that he could have more business.

Margi Dehlin [01:12:28] So we, we did have some rules. Like, they didn't like you having pierced ears. They didn't like you showing. Kind of like temple type of like garment, type of COVID Cover that much don't be showing. And then there was a lot of body shaming. Not body shaming, but like shaming a woman for showing things that shoulders or knees or like, not even like anything bad. Just like there was a lot of.

Margi Dehlin [01:12:54] And I'm sure there was probably lectures in LDS Church. They were very similar to the lectures that we got about modesty. And then also I talked to Shalice about this on her channel. She had this in very in common with what we had, the analogy of the tear present. So, like, I have to save myself or my husband because every time I flirt with a boy or kiss a boy, I'm tearing that present.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:18] And then I have. And then what am I going to not have a present for my husband? And Chalice was saying the chewed gum analogy. Like, you're a piece of chewed gum. And so they would relate, like, purity and like being really modest to, you know, being good for your husband. But I always remember being like, this is bullshit, because what if I'm a fifth wife and he already has 12 kids? Like, what am I saving myself for? But they would always just get upset at those questions. They didn't like those questions. But yeah, so, yeah, not FLDS dresses at all.

Media Restrictions, Racial Teachings, and Isolation

John Dehlin [01:13:47] What about, you know, alcohol and drugs and stuff like that? And what about media, like TV and movies and things like that?

Amanda Rae [01:13:54] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:55] So alcohol and drugs, obviously a huge no. No. Even coffee was like, I knew members that drank it, but they were very like, hush, hush about it. But. And even sugar, they would do a lot of sugar cleanses. But as far as media goes, they were very. Just like, certain things you shouldn't be watching. And Paul would get up on the stand and say sometimes it was random things like Lion King is not a good movie to be watching because Scar goes against his brother, who's the leader. I was like, what? I didn't even realize he did that. But I guess it was really personal for Paul, so he didn't want us watching it.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:29] Don't give anyone any ideas. Exactly. And then Tangled was one, which I remember getting mad at the Tangled one because I'm like, he's like, she Goes against her mother and leaves the tower. I'm like, that wasn't her mom. If you know anything about tangled, that wasn't even her mother.

John Dehlin [01:14:44] But. But the idea of being held up in a cat in a tower and then breaking out, that's a metaphor we use all the time for leaving.

Amanda Rae [01:14:52] That's right.

John Dehlin [01:14:52] Just a high demand religion or the LDS Church.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:54] So he's like, don't watch that. And then also random songs like he said, Rihanna's Love the Way youy Lie. It's a terrible song. But then I would listen to it after leaving, and I was like, this is the life of order women. I love the way you lie. Stand there, watch me burn that's all right. Cause I like the way it hurts. That's literally an order woman's lie.

John Dehlin [01:15:16] So that's the, you know, the bite model. Controlling behavior, controlling information, controlling thoughts and manipulating with emotion. They're controlling the information you receive. They're controlling your behavior. They're controlling your emotion to limit your thoughts.

Amanda Rae [01:15:31] Yep, that's right.

John Dehlin [01:15:31] And then they're manipulating you with emotion.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:33] Yep. And then as soon as someone has a free thought like me, I would be like, well, what about the Bible says not to lay with your sister? What about there's multiple things in the Bible that say something's against polygamy. Right. It doesn't seem like we're doing the right thing here. Then either I get shut down really quick, like you're out of line, or this. They would say this thing. I don't know if they said it in the LDS Church, but there is. The Bible has been modified so much in its. What's that called when you change it from one text to another text?

John Dehlin [01:16:11] Translation.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:11] Translation, yeah. There's been so many lost in the translations. There's a true King James version of the Bible that states all of these things to be true. And I'm like, where is it? Can I see it?

John Dehlin [01:16:24] I want to see it.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:25] Yeah. And they were. I remember them telling me a specific member that had it. And I was like, well, I would love to see it. Because I don't like living by these beliefs that are against what the Bible is saying. So the more I would question, though, and the more I would cause others to question when I was around them because I would show them these verses. Then I was not invited to parties anymore. My. All of a sudden my reputation was through the mud. These. The order, like the leader and his brothers were huge gossipers. They would just be gossiping about the people that were the bad People like Amanda's. Amanda's sleeping with all the men in the church. And then all of a sudden, I have this terrible reputation, and I'm like, all I'm doing is trying to seek the truth.

Amanda Rae [01:17:05] That's huge. I think that's a huge part to sort of. Yeah. Maintaining control, public shaming, how we deal with, like, kind of disruptors. Also making example of people. Like, if you do that, this is what's gonna happen to you.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:19] Oh, yeah. Because how do you get someone to not trust someone and not believe someone is to tear down their character. And then that's genius. Right. And they won't listen to anything that comes out of their mouth.

John Dehlin [01:17:31] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:31] And so.

John Dehlin [01:17:33] Okay. And so. So how did you get to go to a public middle school? That just seems dangerous. And I wonder if that. Was that the beginning of your corruption and your, you know, disinfection, the seeds of your ultimate disinfection, or was it even before that?

Margi Dehlin [01:17:51] I hate saying that with. With order members, like, because I know. Or people are going to be watching this, and I feel like they're going to be like, yep. So we have to make sure that we all stay away from order school or outside schools, because that's what corrupted Amanda. But the reality is, like, that's when you start to realize we were just a tiny little speck in the world. And who were we to think that we're the chosen ones of God and everyone else is going to burn in hell?

John Dehlin [01:18:15] That's what you're saying. Those thoughts came once you started attending a public school.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:20] Because my first friend I made was not a white person. And then I remember crying, being like, so this person's automatically going to hell because by our teachings, white people are the only ones in heaven.

John Dehlin [01:18:32] Oh, you didn't talk about that. So what are the racial teachings around skin color?

Margi Dehlin [01:18:36] I believe this comes from Joseph Smith, the Great War in heaven, where there's the battle between good and evil. This is what happened before any of us were ever born. We were all angels in heaven with God and Jesus and Satan, and we were all fighting about if we should take Jesus's plan or Satan's plan. So the. The ones who chose Jesus's plan, which was us white people, and they went on this side and they get to be members of Earth, whatever. And then there was the demons of hell who chose Satan's side, so they never get to be born. And then there was the fence sitters who could not decide, Jesus or Satan. And those are all the people who are not white.

John Dehlin [01:19:11] Who are brown skinned. And that's absolutely been taught as Mormon mainstream LDS Church doctrine for at least a century now. The church distances just in the past decade. The LDS Church will distance itself from that teaching. But I was raised as a traditional Latter Day Saint with that teaching of the fence sitters in the pre existence and became the people of color.

Margi Dehlin [01:19:35] And what we believed. I don't know if they believed that in the LDS church, but what we believed is they get a chance to come to Earth but they're going to go straight to hell afterwards.

John Dehlin [01:19:42] Okay. That's what you were taught.

Margi Dehlin [01:19:44] And I remember asking my dad, like, what is the point of them being born then if they're just going to go straight to hell? And it was, it was like part of their punishment. But I cried over my friend who wasn't white because I was like, this is so unfair because she's such a nice person. Why would God be.

John Dehlin [01:19:57] So was she Latina or African American?

Margi Dehlin [01:19:59] She's black. She's a black woman.

John Dehlin [01:20:01] And that was the first friend you made in public school in middle school?

Margi Dehlin [01:20:05] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:20:06] What middle school again?

Margi Dehlin [01:20:07] Wasatch.

John Dehlin [01:20:08] Wasatch Middle School, which is again in West Valley area.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:11] No, Wasatch is on the east side. You know Wasatch, Skyline, Churchill. It's by Cotton.

John Dehlin [01:20:15] Cotton, I thought was that front. I wasn't sure if there were many cuz my mom.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:19] Thank goodness for my mom. So the reason I was going to public school is because at the time they didn't have the junior high built and, and like ready to go for the members. So a lot of them were doing

John Dehlin [01:20:28] home school for the Kingston Middle School.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:30] Yeah, they didn't have the Kingston Cult school ready yet for that age.

John Dehlin [01:20:34] Which is now called what?

Margi Dehlin [01:20:35] Vanguard.

John Dehlin [01:20:35] Okay. But at the time they didn't have

Margi Dehlin [01:20:37] it, so there was none. So a lot of members were forced to do homeschool or Penn. Penn Foster was a big one. And then.

John Dehlin [01:20:43] What's that?

Margi Dehlin [01:20:44] It's a. It's a big home school that I actually graduated from. Penn Foster. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:20:47] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:48] So most members will be graduating from Penn Foster. Some. So some of the kids were trusted to go to public school. And I was one of those. Thank goodness my mom had me go to Wasatch. I just. I feel like Wasatch was such a good experience for me.

John Dehlin [01:21:00] So that's near Holiday, right?

Margi Dehlin [01:21:01] Yeah. But I was living in West Valley.

Amanda Rae [01:21:03] Wow.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:03] And I was taking a. I was taking a UTA bus an hour up that way.

John Dehlin [01:21:07] There are middle schools near where you lived. Why did.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:10] My mom wanted me to go to a good. Because it had really good stats of. I can't remember the specific things she wanted her kids to learn, but she cared, I guess, about our academics.

John Dehlin [01:21:22] Something about the academic teachings at Wasatch.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:25] Yeah. And then also we did have a relative that lived next to us that was going up there too. And so it just worked that we could all go carpool car together. Yeah, yeah. Because the other option was to go to these schools that were kind of. Sadly, in our area. Those schools weren't doing as well academically. So we went to Wasatch. And then I was able to. Honestly, I got to meet who a girl who. Her family ended up kind of adopting me when I left. So that was such a good experience for me, like, to. To realizing I don't want to be racist.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:56] To realizing there's so much more in the world. Like, we're. We're so, like, naive to think that we are the only ones that God loves, you know? And then I got to see people in other churches and then realizing, oh, you believe your church is going to the. The only one going to heaven.

Amanda Rae [01:22:13] Right.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:14] So we're not the only ones that are this delusional.

Amanda Rae [01:22:17] Right.

John Dehlin [01:22:17] I have to admit the seeds of my ultimate. I'll say apostasy in quotes, but my questions came out of public schooling, too, as a mainstream Latter Day Saint, because I had Baptist friends who. Or Catholic friends, and they all believe they were part of the true church as well. So public schools did for me, something similar. It just took me a lot longer than it did you.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:38] Because for a while it's like, who are we to be the right ones? And it's just because it's what you've been told. It's nothing. I didn't see God. Did you? I never saw Jesus. You just have to really have. And they were big on. You can have faith through your parents and you can have testimony through your parents. And I was like, that's basically blind following, and I don't like it.

Attending Public School and Questioning the Faith

John Dehlin [01:23:01] Okay, so you're going to this Wasatch Middle school and you're starting to have questions.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:06] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:23:06] So how does that. How does that impact your relationship with your mom and with your non. Dad. Dad and with your church? Talk about that.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:15] So my mom was more understanding because she grew up as an outsider and she wanted me to have outside friends so she would allow me to be a part of something. She allowed me to do the cross country team, but she was like, I'm not gonna take you to the cross country team. You have to figure out how to get there. Oh, yeah. And I think that if she. If I ever saw her supporting too much of an outside life, then she would get backlash from my dad. There was a lot of. Whenever I started to question things, my dad would be like, it's because she's hanging out with those outsiders. And then obviously, eventually, because I was too curious, I guess, and I did start to be curious about boys, and that was the end of my outside school saga, I guess.

John Dehlin [01:24:00] Has your mom been on your podcast?

Margi Dehlin [01:24:02] No, she's still a member of the Order.

John Dehlin [01:24:05] I'm seeing a photo. Is there a photo of you sitting by your mom on a couch? No.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:11] She did go on Escaping Polygamy because she did leave the culture, and then she did go back.

John Dehlin [01:24:17] What's Escaping Polygamy? Tell us what that is.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:19] Escaping Polygamy is the show I was a part of for about four years, and we helped members leave on tv.

John Dehlin [01:24:25] Where was that show broadcast? Escaping Polygamy A and E. It was on ae.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:30] Mm.

John Dehlin [01:24:31] And you were on that for four years and your mom went on that show?

Margi Dehlin [01:24:34] Yeah, she was on one episode leaving, and she was done with the group, and then she went back. My dad found out where she was and brought her back.

John Dehlin [01:24:42] Were you on with your mom on Escaping Polygamy?

Margi Dehlin [01:24:44] Yeah, I was helping her leave.

Amanda Rae [01:24:45] Oh, wow.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:46] So she was pretty public about it, and she. She struggled with her faith for a while. And honestly, that's why I feel like me and my mom had a closer relationship because she confided in me, and a lot of her. Her older daughters, she confided in. And I. I honestly appreciate her honesty so much because, yes, the outside school experience was so eye opening, but also having an honest, real mother not lie to me and bullshit about how hard polygamy is, she doesn't like the incest. And realize, okay, like, I don't think I can do that, because if. If my mom was lying to me and doing what all the other moms were doing with their kids, I would have probably gotten married and hated her afterwards.

Margi Dehlin [01:25:26] Been like, you liar. This is not what you said it was. And I saw a lot of women doing that. They would get married after their mom made it sound like this fairy tale, being married to their own brother. And then their. Their daughter would get married and be like. She would just. You could just see there was something we talked about in the order.

Margi Dehlin [01:25:43] Like, look at their face. You can tell. You can tell they just got married because there was a facial difference in the women where they were just Drained and sad. Not all of them. The first wives had a little bit of happiness, but the plural wives, it was like, this is your life now. Good luck.

John Dehlin [01:26:00] Do you say your mom's first name publicly?

Margi Dehlin [01:26:02] I can. It is a public name.

John Dehlin [01:26:04] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:05] And so is my dad's too. I just don't know if you try to edit out. All the names I've said thus far are public names.

John Dehlin [01:26:10] So I. And I'm not asking you to unless you're. You're okay doing it.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:13] Okay.

Amanda Rae [01:26:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:26:14] So her name.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:15] Her name's Lori, and my dad's Verl.

John Dehlin [01:26:17] Verl.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:18] Yeah. Every time I say Verl, everyone's like, verl. What is that?

John Dehlin [01:26:22] So your mom's full name is Lori.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:25] Lori Peterson.

John Dehlin [01:26:27] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:27] And so Paul is a Peterson of ladonna and Ladonna's Peterson. So that's how my mom technically is related. Is. This is what's weird. My mom and dad are not related, but my mom is related to Paul, and my dad is related to Paul because my mom's related to Paul through ladonna. My dad's related to Paul through their dad, Ortel.

Amanda Rae [01:26:44] Right.

John Dehlin [01:26:45] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:45] So I'm double blue blood, if you think about it, because I'm related to the leader.

John Dehlin [01:26:51] So in middle school, you started, like, boys and your parents, your mom found out or what?

Margi Dehlin [01:26:57] Yeah. So I was not liking the idea of marrying a cousin. I did ask my dad one time, could I potentially marry a outside boy and bring him into the order? And he laughed, and he's like, we don't do that here.

John Dehlin [01:27:11] Okay. By this point, did you know he was your dad then?

Margi Dehlin [01:27:13] Yeah, as a teenager, I knew. I knew as a teenager, but I didn't know up until I got baptized by him at 8 years old. Because at 8 years old, I knew I was smart enough to know that everyone else was getting baptized by their dad. And so I was like, so, okay, for sure. This is my dad.

John Dehlin [01:27:29] And did you ever say dad? Are you my dad? I did. Okay. Do you want to talk about your relationship with your dad and conversations you had with your dad?

Relationship with Her Father and Growing Doubts

Margi Dehlin [01:27:37] Yeah. So when I was younger, we called him Verl by his first name. And then I got that kind of jealousy that the first wife's kids get to call him dad, and I don't have a dad. Where is my dad? So I remember very vividly he was buckling me into my car seat. That's how young I was. And I said.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:56] I think I said, I love you, dad, or, bye, dad. And he looked me in the eye and said, I'm not your dad. Flat out. I was like, okay, I don't know what I'm supposed to do with this information now. I don't know who you are. So we just called him Verl. And I remember people would call, and I remember my sister pick up the phone. She'd be like, hello? They'd be like, is your dad there? And they'd be like, well, we don't have a dad, but we have a virl. So it was a very.

John Dehlin [01:28:19] We have a verl. That should be a shirt. We have a verl.

Margi Dehlin [01:28:22] Do you want to. Who has a virl? But then as I got older, because he was baptizing me because, you know, I was starting to develop my brain, I was like, okay, so this is my dad. But it's like a weird thing. And my friends over here calling their dad uncle. It was like a long, slow process to kind of figure it out.

Amanda Rae [01:28:41] So confusing for a child.

Margi Dehlin [01:28:43] Yeah. And I feel like there was a lot of uncertainty and a lot of. I think a lot of common things that these cults have is do not trust yourself. Cause you're wrong. So I was always doubting myself as a young kid. Like, I don't know what's going on? Where are we? What's happening? And then I get a little older, and it's legitimate. This is my dad. He's baptizing me.

Margi Dehlin [01:29:10] I'm calling him dad now. And then I don't even know that my dad has a third wife. And there's just so many things that are being hidden from me and lies that I had to uncover that they were being really shady about. So it also. It made me not trust myself. But then it also made me not trust him. And I'm like, why are you. You're marrying these people. I have siblings with this person. You're not even gonna talk to me about that? Like, run it by me. But I think it was also that my mom was, again, ashamed of it all. And, like, it was all hush, hush.

Margi Dehlin [01:29:40] It was a secret wedding because it was an incest wedding and a polygamous wedding, so it had to be secret. But then I find out I have siblings from them. My dad wasn't very like, hey, how's your day? Or, you know, what's up? It was more of, like, if he was wanting to sit down and talk with me, I was in trouble.

Margi Dehlin [01:29:57] So anytime he wanted to talk with me, I knew. Oh, shoot, what did I do? Cause he didn't. How was he gonna have time to sit down and have One on one conversation with 30 plus kids.

John Dehlin [01:30:06] That's how many he has.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:08] He had 15 with the first wife, he had 10 with my mom, and he has eight with the third wife.

John Dehlin [01:30:12] Holy moly.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:30:14] So you didn't have a personal connection with your dad in terms of, like, friendship or daddy daughter dates or.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:20] There was one time where we did do a daddy daughter date, but it was with me, my older sister, my younger sister, and then the other sister from the first wife. He took us all out for Valentine's Day.

Amanda Rae [01:30:31] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:32] Yeah. It was weird because he was like. I was like, first of all, why is he taking us all out? What's going on? He gave us all a locket with a picture of him in it saying that basically we are his until we are our husbands. It was so weird. And my sister from the first wife put it on and she was so excited. And I was like, I am so embarrassed to wear this because. And maybe it's because I went to public school and no one in public school is like, daddy. You know, daddy's around my neck wearing I love 36. You know what I mean?

Margi Dehlin [01:31:00] It was like worshiping your father. And for Christmas, I got a picture. I unwrapped it. It was a picture of my dad. I was like, what am I supposed to do with this? Worship it. So there was this really weird. And this wasn't just my family. It was a really weird glorifying this man that comes around, like, for some of them, once a month because the dad has so many wives.

Amanda Rae [01:31:21] That's right. And that it sounds like you have very little connection with, you know? So, yeah, on some level, the kind of. Level of importance that he is given in your life, you'll have these paramount, like, jarring moments of his picture in a locket to someone that you really don't have conversations with or any connection with. And you're not really. It's not like he knows you and he talks the most to you when you're in trouble.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:52] Exactly. And I remember there was a class in Sunday school, and by this time, I'm like, in my teen years, I'm starting to realize, like, my dad's not who I thought he was because he was so glorified and he's just a human. In our Sunday school class, they were talking about heroes. Everyone get up and talk about your heroes. Every single person said a numbered man, except for me. I was like, I think that our moms are the ones who should really. We should really be talking about. Because they're the ones Doing everything. My mom is having all of the kids she's expected to still work. She pays the rent, she feeds the kids, she gets us to school. What the hell are our dads doing, you guys?

John Dehlin [01:32:36] Where was she working? Where was your mom working?

Margi Dehlin [01:32:41] Okay, so at this time she was working at Bountiful Baby. It's an order business. She. I thank God that she was so big on working from home and actually watching her kids because a lot of the times.

John Dehlin [01:32:58] Wait, what's Bountiful Baby?

Margi Dehlin [01:33:00] It's a. It's so weird. One of the. One of the numbered men in the order, his number 79. He decided to create this business based off of like fake realistic looking babies.

John Dehlin [01:33:12] Dude, I. This guy was a Mormon stories listener. I used to. A guy used to come to my events who owned a company called Bountiful Baby.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:21] What was his name?

John Dehlin [01:33:22] I forget. But it was just like five years ago he would come.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:25] Was that Nevin Pratt?

John Dehlin [01:33:26] Yeah, I think so.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:28] I don't like him. Can you wanna know why I don't like him?

John Dehlin [01:33:32] It seemed really super sketchy. And he said he owned a Bountiful Baby, but I never understood what was going on there.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:39] My mom worked for him and he was actually paying her really well. And then as soon as me and my sisters leave, she has no more marriage, age, daughters. She got demoted to a janitor position and basically like let go. And then. And then she gets moved out of her. Her home into her old home. She started work having to work at family stores for $7.25 an hour.

John Dehlin [01:34:00] So was he marrying your sisters?

Margi Dehlin [01:34:02] No, I. I'm trying to understand if it was that he was trying to marry one of us and that's why he was giving my mom so much money and like in like such a lenient position or.

John Dehlin [01:34:12] How do you spell his name?

Margi Dehlin [01:34:13] E V, A. Nevin N. E V, A, N. Pratt. Pierre.

John Dehlin [01:34:15] Say it again.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:16] Nevin N, E V A N. Pratt. P R A, T, T. Okay. And then Bountiful Baby. I'm pretty sure his picture will pop right up.

John Dehlin [01:34:24] No, I'm looking at my email because this guy used to. Yeah, yeah, I totally have emails from Nevin Pratt.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:31] What?

John Dehlin [01:34:32] Like here, I'll read. I'll read one. Not to make this about me, but he's like, yeah, he was offering me room space. So like our. So this is from Nevin Pratt. Bountifulbaby.com August 10, 2017 wow. Our training room can be used as a free venue for Mormon stories if you need one. We are in West Valley, the Size of the training room is blah, blah, blah.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:59] I wonder if it's because he liked that you were talking about, about the Mormon Church and they hate the Mormon Church and to them they're like, yeah, doggone the Mormon Church.

John Dehlin [01:35:08] He used to come to all my events and try to get me to collaborate with him. He's a Kingston.

Margi Dehlin [01:35:15] Yeah. You know who he married? Remember Tom Green?

John Dehlin [01:35:19] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:35:19] Tom Green's wife that he went to prison for marrying underage is sisters to Nevin's wife.

John Dehlin [01:35:25] How many wives would Nevin Pratt have?

Margi Dehlin [01:35:28] I think he's been trying to live polygamy for a long time and he can't because he's not Kingston enough. He's Pratt. And I think this is just my assumption that that's why he was treating my mom so good because she had three daughters of age to be married and. Oh, that's what I think. And it was never talked about. But his daughters live polygamy and he's very pro polygamy for that. He's had a son. Two sons leave though, because I think they can't really like get married in the order.

John Dehlin [01:35:57] So he had this company where they made realistic looking babies called Bountiful Baby. And your mom worked for him?

Amanda Rae [01:36:04] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:36:05] For how long?

Margi Dehlin [01:36:05] We helped make the paints for the babies. She. I believe it was like years. I want to say like five. At least five years with him because

John Dehlin [01:36:14] if I'm remembering right, he brought a woman that he presented to me as a wife, but she was way younger than him, if I remember, remember.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:22] Maybe he did have another wife after I left. I can't think of who.

John Dehlin [01:36:28] Wow.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:28] It can't be a Kingston girl. It has to be a less Kingston because his wife is brown hair, tall. She does not look young. I mean, I'm not saying she looks old, but she doesn't look like she's a teenager.

John Dehlin [01:36:41] Wow. Yeah, well, that. I don't know what a Kingston's doing listening to Mormon stories.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:46] I know, but you probably have a lot of them on there.

John Dehlin [01:36:50] Yeah, I just, I've got a ton of emails from Nevin, so I don't know what made Nevin stop listening, but that's just a weird thing.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:58] A little too mean to. About Joseph Smith.

John Dehlin [01:37:01] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:02] Because they definitely believe in Joseph Smith.

John Dehlin [01:37:03] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:04] But are we keeping this stuff in about now?

John Dehlin [01:37:05] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:06] Are you sure?

John Dehlin [01:37:06] Yeah. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:07] Because he's. He. I don't know. He's a little bit too happy. He just sued someone.

John Dehlin [01:37:11] Oh. Well, I'm. I'm not saying anything that is untrue. That I know to be untrue. And that's the only way you get sued is if you right. Knowingly say something that's false. And I'm. Yeah, I don't think I'm doing that anyway. I'm not. I don't even know if he's a polygamist. I just. These are just my memories. I could be totally.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:29] And I don't know, wrong about any of this, but I do think that. I know that he believes in polygamy because he. I watched his daughters get married into it. Right. He did get his. Have a son that got married, and then he. His son ended up leaving, and so did that girl, and then his other son left. I don't know why, but.

John Dehlin [01:37:44] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Amanda Rae [01:37:46] Interesting.

John Dehlin [01:37:46] Yeah. Well, you mentioned the name, and I've got all these emails from him, so that's not made up. Anyway. Okay, so your mom is raising 10 kids as basically effectively a single mom and working for Nevin Pratt to help provide for the 10 kids, is that right?

Margi Dehlin [01:38:04] Yeah. So she was the. The main. The mom and the dad. Right. And my dad. Really? Just like that. We were just talking about. What did you get. Did you talk to your dad? Like, what did we get from him? I remember him coming home, watching football. Like, I hadn't seen him for three years.

John Dehlin [01:38:19] NFL. NFL Football.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:20] He loves the Raiders. Yeah. Don't the Raiders.

Amanda Rae [01:38:25] Is that a little connecting point for you?

John Dehlin [01:38:27] I just. Yeah, I don't know.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:29] I might. Like, he likes football. He had time to have a fantasy football team.

John Dehlin [01:38:34] Oh, my gosh.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:35] Yeah. And then. And then we're over there, like, just, dad, I want some attention.

Financial Control and Economic Dependency in the Order

Amanda Rae [01:38:40] All right. I have a question for you about your mom's job and money.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:43] Okay.

Amanda Rae [01:38:44] So would she be able to use the money that she earned working to help her family directly, like her kids at all? Or again, does that go into. Does she not see that money and then have to ask permission to get the money?

Margi Dehlin [01:39:01] So the. The. The way it works when you're working with these order businesses is it goes directly into your order account. Right. And then you have to call and get an add on. And I feel like I don't ever remember my mom having issues with getting money out, but she also. She didn't talk to me much about that, but it's the same process. Like, they have to let her know if they can get the money out. And she didn't have a credit card either. They don't have credit cards really within the group. I think they had gas cards at one point. Where you could go get gas and that was it.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:31] So they're really strict on who's getting money out and who, like, how much is allowed. And I actually worked at the bank for a while, and they told me that I could only give out a certain amount a day. And this was one. They have two banks in the area of that West Valley area. I was talking about Salt Lake, West

John Dehlin [01:39:48] Valley area banks that they own or banks.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:52] It's their banks. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:39:53] What are they?

Margi Dehlin [01:39:54] They're not public banks. It's like order banks where they get the money, but they have their money in multiple different banks. One of them is Brighton bank because. Because that's the closest one to the location of their two banks.

John Dehlin [01:40:06] But, like, do you know the names of their private banks?

Margi Dehlin [01:40:08] Fidelity Funding. You can Google it, actually. Fidelity Funding, the location, and then Kingston Bank.

John Dehlin [01:40:14] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:14] But you're not. Like, there's like, no soliciting sign out there. Like, outsiders don't come in that you have to get buzzed in to actually go into the back. But yeah, she was asking if my mom could actually have access to her money. And it's the same process for everyone. You have to call, get an add on, get the money out, and they. They can flat out say no. And there's been times where if someone is known to be, or they're scared that the person's going to leave the order, they will, like, freeze. Yep. All of a sudden, your money's gone. Or you'll look at your bank statement. Because, I mean, I think they have an app now where you can kind of see what's in there, but it changes. They can take. Change the amount all the time.

Amanda Rae [01:40:49] Wow.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:49] But when. When I was leaving, I was lucky enough that I worked at the bank because I could. I figured out how to make fake authorizations.

John Dehlin [01:40:59] Well, you worked at this bank.

Amanda Rae [01:41:00] Mm.

John Dehlin [01:41:00] Oh, wow.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:01] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:41:01] Don't admit to anything illegal.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:03] It was fake authorization for my own. My own account with my own money.

John Dehlin [01:41:08] Okay, good.

Amanda Rae [01:41:08] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:08] It was nothing illegal.

John Dehlin [01:41:09] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:10] What they were doing was a legal thing. So I was. I was getting the slip to go put it in. Because what you have to do is you have to write down how much money and what you need that money for. So down to the. Like, if you need tampons. If you need. You know what I mean? And a lot of times I would just write tampons because I was mad. But you have to get that authorization number from the card line and then give it to them, and then they will give you the money. So I. Yeah, it's a weird process.

Amanda Rae [01:41:38] Effortful.

John Dehlin [01:41:38] What's weird is in the United States, religions are tax exempt. So this Kingston group, I assume, would be a tax exempt organization, becoming a half billion dollar church with. With government subsidies and protection in effect by not having to pay taxes.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:55] Right, exactly. And they do. Last I heard, they are tax exempt. And that's why when you drive by the church, there's a really faded sign that says Latter Day Church of Christ, ldcc. You can't really read it unless you go up close to it, but I think it's because the legal requirement is you have to have.

John Dehlin [01:42:11] So that's the name of the. Of the co op.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:15] Ldcc. That's the, I think, tax exempt name. Right.

John Dehlin [01:42:18] Okay. Okay. Wow. So that was Margi's question about whether your mom got to control her own money or not.

Amanda Rae [01:42:27] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:27] And she did. She say it's the same process, but like my dad was pulling out of the account whenever he wanted to. And then there's this whole. I'm trying not to confuse too many viewers because it's like, wait, you lost me. You know, because I'm even like, I know it's a lot. But there's also this thing that they would do where they would put money into the back account. So, like I. My money would never go up past $2,000. And I would ask why. Why have I been working and not taking money out for years? Why isn't it going past 2000? They had this whole thing where, oh, by the end of the year or by this certain amount of time, we put the money into what we call a back account. I never saw it. I really just think it was a way for them to control the money even more.

Amanda Rae [01:43:06] And so they take kind of beyond a certain point. They'll kind of take it.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:10] Yep. And then you have to obviously, automatically. They automatically take 10 out and they make you sign a 10 form every year, which is Mormon doctrine. Right. You have a 10 form and an inventory form, which means inventory. Every year you would write down everything that you have of value, like your car, your home, your. I, I had some cousins who said they even had to count the bobby pins they had and say, this is the work of the Lords, so you are the, the property of the Order, basically.

John Dehlin [01:43:37] How is this not illegal? This feels like slavery. This feels like.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:41] Yep, exactly.

John Dehlin [01:43:43] Exploitation, exploitation, trafficking. There's got to be some law against this kind of stuff.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:47] And they somehow.

Amanda Rae [01:43:49] You.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:49] You said it. Right. Like how they turn it around on their, on their cult members somehow when people would leave it's so weird. They would call and say, hey, you owe us money. And some people would be like, really? I owe you money? And they think that there's some legal standpoint that they have. They don't. They're not a legal bank. They would get in so much trouble for what they're doing.

John Dehlin [01:44:09] So it's not a legal bank.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:10] No, but. But here's the thing is, like, when. When Jacob went to prison for the wre thing, there was a raid. They got raided, and, like, all of the documents that they have and the thing, they were destroyed. So I feel like a lot of the stuff that they do is just like, we don't even know. We don't even know what they're doing. I think that they keep track in some way, but I have no idea how much money they actually took from me.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:39] And then just like that, some people will leave and be like, oh, I owe you money. I'm so sorry. Let me get you that money. Because they think that there's some legality to it. I've had people call me and be like, I'm so afraid to leave because they said that if I leave, then the police will. Will make me give my kids to them. And I'm like, the police are not going to do that. But how are you supposed to know? You're in this cult your whole life. You have no idea what the real world is like.

Amanda Rae [01:44:59] Yes. It really is an alternate reality that they get to control.

John Dehlin [01:45:03] But right here in Salt Lake county,

Amanda Rae [01:45:05] like, going on right now.

Margi Dehlin [01:45:07] Yep.

Amanda Rae [01:45:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:45:08] Yeah. This isn't 50 years ago in some desert town on the border of Colorado. This is Salt Lake City, 2023.

Margi Dehlin [01:45:17] Right. You probably walked. I mean, apparently, you know, members.

John Dehlin [01:45:21] Yeah. Yeah. If they're listening to Mormon stories. Hey, Kingston's.

Margi Dehlin [01:45:25] Hello there.

John Dehlin [01:45:27] Wow. Okay, so you get pulled from middle school, public schools, and you get put into, what, high school?

Margi Dehlin [01:45:36] Penn Foster home School.

John Dehlin [01:45:38] That's the homeschooling.

Margi Dehlin [01:45:38] Yeah, you said so. It costs. Honestly, I don't even know if my dad lied about this now, but he was like, we're gonna put you into Penn Foster because I. I got caught dating a Mormon boy.

John Dehlin [01:45:49] Really?

Margi Dehlin [01:45:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:45:49] Were you dating him?

Margi Dehlin [01:45:50] I went on a couple dates with this Mormon boy, and I did kiss him. I did.

John Dehlin [01:45:54] And I'm not asking that for any. Only because it breaks the K. Yeah, the K. Only because it breaks the

Amanda Rae [01:45:58] K. You broke the K. Wait. And it also shows your. Your spirit, like, your sense of like.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:04] Yep. And because I. At that point, I didn't. I was Kind of like this is all kind of bullshit.

Concluding the Church Was Not True

John Dehlin [01:46:11] Okay, so talk about you concluding the church wasn't true.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:46:16] Because I don't think you took us there.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:18] Yeah, it's. It stems from, I think, the. The losing respect for my dad. I lost all my respect for him around the time when I just caught him in these lies. And then I.

John Dehlin [01:46:29] And the main lies were just the top three, top five.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:33] Okay, so him just not being transparent with marrying his half sister and that she was the half sister. And.

John Dehlin [01:46:39] And did he stop at three or did he have more than three?

Margi Dehlin [01:46:41] He stopped at three, but he kept trying. And so this is. This is one of the things that just made me lose trust in him was he was going forward. This is what they do in the orders. They have direction, then they go forward. On my sister's friend, she was younger than his kids. And I was like, I found this out. And I was like, why are you doing this? Like, I don't understand.

John Dehlin [01:47:02] Your dad was trying to get with your sister's friend?

Margi Dehlin [01:47:05] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:47:06] As a fourth wife.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:07] And this whole time we had been going to her family's house and having parties. And I thought it was a genuine, happy, healthy connection.

John Dehlin [01:47:14] It was grooming.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:15] Meanwhile, my dad was trying to get that girl to marry him. And I'm like, I felt so disgusted that my dad was that kind of a person, but he. I wish.

John Dehlin [01:47:24] How old was she at the time? How old was she?

Margi Dehlin [01:47:26] I think she was 16 or 17.

John Dehlin [01:47:27] Okay, so of age from a Kingston standpoint.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:47:31] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:31] But then I'm like.

John Dehlin [01:47:33] And you were 13 at the time?

Margi Dehlin [01:47:35] I was 15.

John Dehlin [01:47:36] Cause you were second.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:37] I think I was 15. 16.

John Dehlin [01:47:38] Okay. And this is your older sister?

Margi Dehlin [01:47:41] My older sister's friend, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:47:42] Okay, so you're 15 and you're seeing your dad try and make the moves on your older sister's friend.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:46] Right. And then also at this time, I find out about David Kingston going to prison for raping his niece and that Daniel Kingston beat the daughter. So Daniel Kingston's daughter was supposed to be married to David, the uncle. Daniel and David are brothers. So basically like Daniel being like, hey, brother, here's my daughter. 15 year old, daughter, 16. 15 year old. And she doesn't want to be married to him. He's now a rapist. Because they're forcing this marriage. The mom's not doing anything. Daniel's not doing anything. So she is trying to fight it. Daniel beats her to almost. A lot of people say almost death. Like the broken bones and the bruises were so bad. But I didn't know any of this.

John Dehlin [01:48:24] Did you know this girl?

Margi Dehlin [01:48:26] She. She was a part of Daniel's family and had to. Had to leave.

John Dehlin [01:48:30] But did you know her? Did you grow up with Daniel?

Margi Dehlin [01:48:31] I knew her family.

John Dehlin [01:48:32] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:33] So I'm hearing from someone. They said, amanda, ask your dad if Daniel beat Marianne. The girl's name is Marianne. This is a whole story. You can, like, look this whole thing up. Say, amanda, did Daniel ask your dad did Daniel beat Marianne? And I was like, a numbered man would never do that. I don't know what you're talking about. I'll ask him right now. I go up to my dad and I say, did Daniel beat Marianne? And my dad was like, we don't need to talk about that.

Margi Dehlin [01:49:02] I was like, wow. Well, at least he didn't lie. But he was not okay with telling me the truth about these numbered men. He was okay with keeping the secrets of the rape that was happening with David and of Daniel abusing his own daughter. So at that point, I was like, I can't trust him. And then he's going forward on my sister's friend, and then he's not supporting me wanting to. I wanted to marry someone who was not related to me. He wasn't supporting that.

Margi Dehlin [01:49:28] And then he wouldn't listen to me on, like, I'm not going to marry my cousin. I don't like polygamy. He tells me that someone came forward on me, which is a choice for marriage. And I'm like, okay, I don't care.

John Dehlin [01:49:44] And you're 15 at the time, or 16.

Margi Dehlin [01:49:47] This is when I'm on my way out of the order. Sorry. And I'm, like, telling you, reading up points.

John Dehlin [01:49:51] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:49:52] So it was the. It was the Daniel thing, and then it was the. Him trying to marry my. My sister's friend. And then now he's like. He's like, someone came forward on you. And I knew.

John Dehlin [01:50:01] Does the leader of the Kingston Church tell men which wives they get or tell teenage girls who they're supposed to marry? Because, like, with Warren Jeffs, Warren Jeffs got to approve all the. And he would reward teenage girls to the men who obeyed him and who he wanted to give favors to or power to.

Margi Dehlin [01:50:23] Yeah, I think it's more. In our group, it was more of a chain of command thing, but it was very obvious when someone's. So, like, a specific family, for example, gave all of their daughters to Paul's family. Like, all of them just happened to marry Paul's kids. And then this family all of a sudden has a lot of and control over businesses. So it's not like, written in stone, like, if you give me your daughters, you'll get businesses. But you could see it. And was it a numbered man who

John Dehlin [01:50:50] came forward for you? Do you know?

Margi Dehlin [01:50:51] No. He was my cousin who was my age. He was young too. So I would have been a first wife. But again, he was my cousin with his parents being siblings. And I was like, I told my dad, I'm like, I don't want this. Like, you already know who I want to marry. I told my dad who I wanted to marry and was not someone related to me. It was not this Kingston mumbo jumbo.

John Dehlin [01:51:15] Is it better to be a first wife in this order?

Margi Dehlin [01:51:18] I remember talking to my friends growing up, and they all wanted to be first wives, but I told them I was like, being a first wife sounds like the worst hell, because you fall in love and you get to experience that, and then you get it ripped from you and you have to watch him fall in love with someone else. So I'd rather be like a 10th wife. At least walk in knowing what you're signing up for. But a lot of them did like the idea of being a first wife to get that experience.

John Dehlin [01:51:42] And what. What was it as a teen that made you not want to be a part of the incest stuff? Like, was it stuff you read? Was it biology? Like, that was a core teaching. So what made. What made you come to the conclusion that the incest stuff wasn't for you, given that you were indoctrinated and socialized?

Margi Dehlin [01:52:02] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:52:03] To love that versus not like it. Does that make sense?

Amanda Rae [01:52:06] But with a little space where you went to public school.

Margi Dehlin [01:52:09] Right. I honestly think that it was my mom because so many people didn't see an issue with marrying your cousin. So many people didn't see an issue with marrying their own half siblings. But my mom was like, I remember one time, like, having the concern that I could marry my half siblings of my dad, of the first wife. And my mom just laughed about it. And so I was like, okay, so that's not a worry, then I shouldn't be worried about that. But I think that my mom just really instilled, like, common sense in that area with me. Whereas I don't think, because people have asked this question a lot, like, aren't we born to not want to be attracted to our siblings?

Margi Dehlin [01:52:49] Like, okay, but if you're raised in this cult where your half sibling lives clear downtown, you don't really know them that well. You could be groomed to marry them. You know, I mean, back in the day, when the. When the kings and queens keeping their bloodline stuff, like, they did it too. Not saying it's normal, but I'm saying it's definitely not something that your body just knows to not be with your half sibling, you know, because a lot of them were just doing it.

John Dehlin [01:53:16] So your mom somehow led you to feel like you didn't want to marry a family member?

Margi Dehlin [01:53:24] Yeah, I think that the public school thing did have something to do with it, but I really think that having my mom as a friend and just like someone that I looked up to so much and I really valued a lot of her words, I realized, yeah, I agree with you. Like, I wouldn't want my husband to marry his sister either. That is kind of weird, you know?

Amanda Rae [01:53:42] Yeah, I could see that being really impactful. You seeing your mom's difficulty with her husband marrying a sister and being able to read that and see their relationship suffer. That. That would be.

Margi Dehlin [01:53:57] And trying to put myself in the shoes, too. I don't know how, if it's an empath thing or if it's a woman thing or what, but a lot of my core memories as a child was putting myself in my mom's shoes. And just like, when I was saying me and my sister Pinky swore we would not marry the same husband because we saw what it did to them. And, like, putting myself in my mom's shoes, like, how do you cope with this type of life? Like, how am I gonna cope with this type of life? And then also thinking, if my husband was married to his own sister, how would that make me feel?

Margi Dehlin [01:54:28] So it was just a lot of, like, putting myself in the shoes because at the end of the day, I had to stomach and be okay with living polygamy and raising my kids in that polygamous lifestyle. And that was finally the breaking point, was asking myself this question. Can you. Can you raise your daughters and tell them, yep, this is the kingdom of God. You need to be living polygamy? Da, da, da, da, da. And at 15, I was like, I

Amanda Rae [01:54:55] can't do that at 15.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:57] Yep. I could not honestly say that I could raise my daughters as polygamists. And so I knew at 15 that I was going to leave, but I didn't know how.

Amanda Rae [01:55:05] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:55:06] So I didn't leave till 17, but, yeah, 15. I was like, there was all those other things happening, but the final thing that was like, I think I'm going to be leaving was knowing that I could not raise my kids in the same environment that I was raised in.

John Dehlin [01:55:21] Well, I just want to. I guess this is going to be complimenting you, but it is hard to leave a cult or high demand religion. And so many of the people who are listening who have left high demand religions or cults didn't do it until their 30s or 40s or 50s or 60s and sometimes 70s. So, like I'm saying, standing here sort of in awe or reverence that you had the strength or the confidence or the intelligence or whatever it was to make that decision when you were 15. That's amazing.

Margi Dehlin [01:55:54] Thank you.

Amanda Rae [01:55:54] It is.

Margi Dehlin [01:55:55] I don't know what it was because a lot of people ask, like, how did you know so young. How did you have these thoughts? Very young. And I really. I think that they all have these thoughts. I think that I was not the only one, but I was the one that was just like, I knew it would be harder to stay than to leave, so I was willing. It was too uncomfortable. Because at that point, 17, I have the choice where, okay, now you have to marry your cousin. This man's going forward on you. It's gonna happen. They did make me go on a date with him.

Margi Dehlin [01:56:28] They didn't care about my choice. So I got to this point, and I think a lot of people who leave these cults and religions, you do get to a point where you're very uncomfortable. And it's. It's. It's the choice of, can you stay in this uncomfortable or can you go in that uncomfortable? Yeah, we are creatures of. We like to be comfortable. And getting out of your comfort zone is something that's kind of scary. So I got to a point where

John Dehlin [01:56:52] I was like, well, so you went out with him. Was he cute?

Margi Dehlin [01:56:56] No. I had to, though. Like, my dad literally was like. I was like, I'm not gonna go. I don't know what you're talking about. And then he's like, well, he's gonna show up in like 10 minutes. And he took me to Panda Express, and he wore a nice tie and it was a nice fancy dinner. Panda. And then he took me to a park and told me his direction from God, that he had a dream that he was engaged to me. And he knew that that was of God, and he had already talked to his parents about it. And I told him, I was like, well, I don't believe in polygamy and you're my cousin. Like, I was like, laughing kind of, but then he starts laughing like it's a joke. And I'm like, I'm serious. Like, I'm not Down for this.

Amanda Rae [01:57:36] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:57:37] But because in spite of me being honest and real and telling everyone how I really felt, they didn't care. It was like they were gonna go through with the wedding anyways. I was like, what is happening? No one seems to be listening to me.

Amanda Rae [01:57:48] Oh, that's so eerie. Yeah, that is so eerie to think about that. You're in this place of like, nope, not gonna happen. Don't trust any of you.

John Dehlin [01:57:59] And they're just gonna do it anyway.

Amanda Rae [01:58:00] And they're, they're like, oh, yes you will. Oh yes you will.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:03] Because they weren't like, it's not like my dad was like, you will marry him. But they were doing things like in, in our community, if you're dancing with a man twice in one dance, then it's, you know that they're gonna be getting married. That's like, only engaged people get married. Only engaged people can dance twice.

Amanda Rae [01:58:18] If you dance twice.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:19] Yeah. So he was asking me to dance twice because he got permission. And I'm like, why is he asking me to ask why I told him that I'm not gonna be marrying him?

Amanda Rae [01:58:26] Yes. So it was still green lighted. You felt like it was still like

Margi Dehlin [01:58:31] they were gonna push for it.

Amanda Rae [01:58:32] Wow.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:32] But I was like, I'm not gonna marry him. I don't care how hard they try, I'm not gonna do it. But then it got to the point where the day that I finally left. I don't know, how much time do we have? Maybe I'll condense it. The day that I finally left actually was because another member was leaving. He was my friend and they were not allowing him to get his money out of the bank. He had like 40, $50,000 in the bank.

Margi Dehlin [01:59:01] And I had worked at the bank at this time. Right. And I knew how they were about the money. By this time, I was catching on to the sleaziness of the group. I was not trusting the leadership because why are they having this guy go forward on me against my will? Why Does Paul have 27 wives and he's sleeping with his siblings? He's. This all is starting to sound. I felt like I always reference, you know, Zoolander, Will Ferrell, when he's like, I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Like, I feel like I was the only one. Like, are you guys seeing this?

Margi Dehlin [01:59:35] We're worshiping this guy. And he's literally doing everything against the Bible, but he's claiming it's the Bible. So at this point I'm like, I'm losing all my faith in Everything in the group, I'm on my way out the door. I had ran away multiple times already. Police sent me back. Like, I'm. I have my. My bags are packed. I'm just waiting to the day. I'm turning 18. And I was very vocal about that. I'm getting out of here, so. And I also.

Confronting Abuse and Leaving the Order

John Dehlin [01:59:59] Did your parents do things to punish you?

Margi Dehlin [02:00:01] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:00:01] For disobedience?

Margi Dehlin [02:00:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:00:03] Like, how did they punish you?

Margi Dehlin [02:00:04] When I ran away the last time, I got sent back home and I came to my room and all my stuff was gone and my brother's stuff was in there. And I was like, where's my stuff? And my mom was like, your room's in the basement now. It was a like 6 by 6 concrete room with no windows, no door. You try to open the dresser and it would hit into the bed. Like it was the tiniest, tiny little.

Margi Dehlin [02:00:36] Maybe seven by seven. I don't know the exact measurement. It was teeny. And that was supposed to be where I stayed because I was running away and I was a bad kid and there was abuse. But I'm lucky that my family wasn't as abusive as, like, Daniel's family, because Daniel's family was like, I heard so many stories of abuse from there, but yeah, there was privileges taken away. And also as a teen, in the order for me, in a lot of families, you're not allowed to have a cell phone.

Margi Dehlin [02:01:02] So I had a secret phone. That's how I even had contact with the outside world. But yeah, it was basically like, as strict as the religion was. If I was out of line, it just got stricter and stricter and like, I. I felt suffocated being in this. Like, I was being watched. I was being, you know, just. I felt like property. I was their cattle that got out of the pen. So now I gotta go. Go be in a more confined area.

Margi Dehlin [02:01:28] And I think that's why they were pressuring me to get married so quick. Because what you'll see a lot of times is women that are feisty and are fighting back, they marry them really quick and then they're pregnant, and now you're stuck.

Amanda Rae [02:01:40] This is so horrific.

Margi Dehlin [02:01:41] Yeah, it happens a lot. And luckily I was fighting. And then I was still fighting after that. But my dad had said, and this burns in the back of my brain. He was like. After knowing that, I was like, I will leave. I am going to leave. He said, I would rather die than leave the order, and I hope you feel the same way. And I took that as okay, you'd rather me kill myself than leave the order because, one, it makes you look bad. And two, I really do think deep down in his brain, my soul goes to hell if I leave. And it was his way of like, I love you, but it was so twisted.

Margi Dehlin [02:02:18] So at this point I'm like. I was very depressed, very sad about it because I knew I had the potential of losing my entire family if I leave, but it was too difficult to stay. At this point, I knew what my future was there. I knew I was going to be married to my cousin. I was going to have about little kids and sister wives and then die and have my kids repeat that cycle.

Margi Dehlin [02:02:41] So I was like, I am willing to take the chances of not knowing what's going to happen. So I'm at this point in my life, I'm just waiting to turn 18 because legally I can't get out because of the state of Utah.

John Dehlin [02:02:54] What is it about the state of Utah?

Margi Dehlin [02:02:55] They're very family oriented, the police.

John Dehlin [02:02:58] So kids can't declare independence at 17.

Margi Dehlin [02:03:01] You can file emancipation if you can figure out how to do that. But a lot of kids don't know the process of doing that. And it's very hidden from, like, I didn't know how to. Where was I gonna go too? I didn't think that far ahead as far as I just had to get out. That was where my brain was at. So I was running away and not really having. I was having plans that were falling through because there were people that were scared to house me because the police would get called and they would be harboring a runaway. Even though I was 17, it was super weird because I remember even telling a police officer, they're polygamous, they're trying to make me marry my cousin. Like, told them everything. And they're like, well, when you're 18, you can figure it out. Yeah.

Amanda Rae [02:03:43] Wow.

Margi Dehlin [02:03:43] I'm like, okay, great. And I even. Even knew kids that got abused and told the police. And there's police records showing, yes, there was abuse on this teenager and then they sent her back home. And it's like, whatever. I think. I really think Utah just either they're. A lot of the cops are getting paid off by the Kingstons, which I've heard specific names that are in cahoots with the Kingstons.

John Dehlin [02:04:09] But what police force would this have been? Like, West Valley police?

Margi Dehlin [02:04:13] I think one. One specifically. And I'm going to talk about him because he comes up in this story. It was West Valley, but so. So I'm at this point 18 years old or almost 18 years old. Just counting down the days. I have all my stuff packed, trying to figure out what I'm gonna do. And then my friend calls me and he's like, we had worked together when we were younger and he's like, I want to leave the order. He had told me that he's bi.

John Dehlin [02:04:42] Bisexual.

Margi Dehlin [02:04:43] Yeah. And he's like, I want to leave and I can't get my money out. I have like 40, $50,000 in there. I don't know what to do. He was like in a panic. And I was like, I'm going to, I work there. So let's, let's come up with a plan. Let's figure out what we're going to do. And he was like, well if you work there, what if because they have all these underage children working there illegally, child labor laws are being broken. He's like, what if you go back there and take pictures and threaten them that you're gonna turn this into the police if they don't give me my money?

Margi Dehlin [02:05:15] And I was like, this is a genius plan. My 17 year old brain is like, this is gonna work out so good. So I go in there with his phone to go take pictures and they buzz me in the back cause they trust me, cause I work there and I start taking pictures of all these underage kids working like their nine to five jobs. And they caught on quick. The leader's brother, I don't know who told him or what happened, but where I had slipped up was I knew at this point that I probably wouldn't see anyone ever again. So I go in the other room where I knew my friend was working and she had gotten married, had kids, and she was having kind of a hard time.

Margi Dehlin [02:05:51] So I wanted to go kind of like say goodbye, but not say goodbye because I wasn't gonna say, hey, I'm leaving the order. I was just gonna have one last talk with her. So I'm talking with her, I had the pictures on the phone. And then I just remember seeing in her eyes she was scared of something behind me. And I was like, as I'm turning, Paul's brother, he's like a big guy, he comes from behind me, starts attacking me, trying to get the phone out of my hand that has the pictures on it. And I'm like, what the hell? What is going on?

Margi Dehlin [02:06:23] I'm in shock. Like it all happened so fast. He's like pushing me out the door, he has my, the phone that I was taking pictures with pushing me out the door. And he's like, I'm gonna give. I'll give the phone back to your dad. Shoves me out the door. I can't come back. He locked the door. And I'm like. And this happens in front of, like, I want to say, like, five to 10 people. So there were witnesses. And I'm. I start running back to my friend across the street, and he starts crying. He's like, amanda, you're bleeding. You're bleeding. And I'm like, what? And I touched my neck, and I am bleeding from the neck.

Margi Dehlin [02:06:56] He had clawed me in the throat. I had bruises and handprints all up and down me. Like it was a bad. But I didn't feel anything. Cause there was so much adrenaline. I was like, what's going on? My friend's crying. He's like, we need to call the police.

Margi Dehlin [02:07:07] We called the police. And luckily. This is such a crazy story. Who happens to be driving to the station to clock out for his shift was the same cop that was on the case of. So Jesse Kingston and Michelle Michaels are married.

Margi Dehlin [02:07:29] And Michelle Michaels was tending this baby. And the baby accidentally in quotation marks, accidentally fell and died. This cop showed up to their house and knew that it was a murder. And someone did end up going to prison for that. But they claimed to their. To, you know, they claimed up and down, swore up and down that it was an accident. This cop that happened to be going back to the station was on that case. And he pulls over and he's like, what's going on? And I tell him everything. I'm like, this is what's going on. We're part of this cult. He's trying to get his money out.

Margi Dehlin [02:08:03] This person just attacked me. Trying to tell him the whole gist of it. And he cuts me off. He's like, I know the Kingstons. I was on this case where the baby died. And I know that that baby was murdered. The Kingston, they're terrible people. So he tries to go in and, like, get them to talk. And he's trying to open the door. They're holding the door shut on him, waiting for their lawyer to show up. And it was like we were waiting forever. The lawyer shows up, and then another cop shows up. So this first cop, he was good. He's like, let's take pictures.

Margi Dehlin [02:08:32] Let's file the reports. Take this as your silver lining and get out. Like, he was. He was a big, pivotal person in my, you know, escape. And then this other cop pulls up and he asked me to get in his car, which is that legal? If you're a 17 year old, can you be alone in a cop car? I don't know, maybe you can. But he asked me to get his passenger seat and he's like, so you don't want to press charges on this? His name's Jason, the guy that I was going to be pressing charges on for attacking me.

Margi Dehlin [02:09:01] You don't want to be pressing charges on this Jason guy because you're gonna have to do a lot of work and, like, you're gonna have to, you know, file all this paperwork. And, like, he's trying to explain to me all the stuff that I'm gonna have to do, and all he's gonna get is a slap on the wrist, maybe some jury duty or whatever. And I was like, really? He's like, yeah, you don't want to press charges? I'm 17.

Margi Dehlin [02:09:25] I don't know. I don't know what the. The. The lengths I have to go to. So I'm believing him. I'm like, oh, it's going to be really hard just to give him a slap on the wrist. I'm like, okay, I'm listening to him. Later on, I talked to other ex members and they told them that I forgot the name of the cop, but I could find out if I researched it, told them the name of the cop, and they were like, yeah, he works for them. I was like, I don't know how that works. Does he get paid? Do they just call him when they're needing to get it out of a pickle?

Margi Dehlin [02:09:53] I don't know. But overnight, though? No, not even overnight. Within minutes, the whole order was saying that I clawed myself in the throat and I'm just this crazy person that's trying to hurt the order. Nobody touched me. They have camera evidence that I wasn't even touched. And I was like, show the. Show the cops. Then show the cops this camera evidence. Because it did end up going on his record that he assaulted a minority, but they claimed that they had this video footage. And I was in shock that people that were my best friends were now not believing me. And I was like, there were witnesses.

Margi Dehlin [02:10:30] Witnesses saw this. And literally everybody was like, man is a liar. And she clawed herself in the throat, she bruised herself. And that was something that they'd rather believe than to question the leadership. This is the leader's brother, right?

Amanda Rae [02:10:45] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:10:46] So after all this is happening, I call my mom and I'm like, I just want you to know that what really happened, and everyone's gonna be lying to you and telling you Their version. And my mom actually believed me. She was like. But I remember her exact words were, amanda, why do you always gotta go out with a bang? Why do you gotta do everything with a bang? Why can't you just keep the peace? And I was like, just so you know, like, I, again, don't want to be a part of the Order. This is it. I'm done. Because also, the leader was on his side.

Margi Dehlin [02:11:22] Nobody was on my side. I was the one in the wrong. And my mom begged me to come have, like, a little meeting with her. So I go to the house, and I'm talking with her, and she's like, I just remember my dad walking up. I made her promise that my dad wouldn't be there. And my dad showed up, and he is like, you need to go apologize to him right now. I'm like, to who? What are you talking about? You want me to apologize to him? For what? Not letting him claw my neck more? Not letting him beat me more. What am I apologizing for?

Margi Dehlin [02:11:57] He's like, you do not call the police on the Order. We know this. You do not call the police. We never do that. I'm like, well, I'm not sorry, and I'm not a member of the order. Wow. And I think at this point, I was too much of a risk for him to try to keep me in the Order. So at this point, he was like, let her go. Just let her leave. But I also think he thought that I couldn't make it on the outside, and I'd be crying and coming, begging to come back.

John Dehlin [02:12:22] Like your mom did eventually.

Margi Dehlin [02:12:23] Yeah. And so. But I never went back. So

Family Relationships After Leaving

John Dehlin [02:12:29] do they have shunning? Were you able to keep your relationship with your mom? Did you keep your relationship with your dad? Did your parents keep your siblings away from you? What was. How did that. How did you leaving the Kingston group or the co op affect your relationship with your parents and siblings?

Margi Dehlin [02:12:47] It was very. I think I had this, like, little glimmer of hope that my family would be different and keep that connection with me. My family's not like the ones that cut off their kids. They wouldn't do that to me. We have too much of a bond. Right. I helped raise these kids. I was the second oldest. But then on my 18th birthday. Cause remember, I was 17. It was July 25th of 2013. My birthday is August 31st. So like, about a month later, my birthday's coming up, and I had the impression that my mom was gonna bring all my siblings to my birthday, and we were going to.

Margi Dehlin [02:13:19] It was Willard. Willard Farm. It was some park that we were gonna have a little birthday party. And I show up, and none of my siblings are there, and my mom's there, and I was like, where? What's going on? She takes me and she whispers because there were, like, my outside aunt was there, and there were people that would probably judge my mom for saying this, but she takes me and she whispers in my ear and says, you can see your siblings when you come back to the order.

Margi Dehlin [02:13:44] And then to add salt to the wound, she gives me two gifts, and they're photo albums that she had been working on for a long time. They were very nice of all of my siblings that I basically will not be able to see unless I go back to the church.

Margi Dehlin [02:13:59] So that was the worst birthday ever. I remember crying in the closet. Like, I locked myself in my apartment closet, and I was just crying. But eventually, because I was the first to, like, really leave, leave. And so I got the worst of it. You know, the first one always does get the worst of it, because they're paving the way for the rest of the. So eventually, over time, she did start to call, and she fought my dad on it. She's like, I cannot disown my daughter. This is my daughter. You can't tell me to just forget about her. So thankfully for her, she did keep that relationship, but it's been rocky, and it has been like, you can't come home for Christmas.

Margi Dehlin [02:14:36] You're not allowed to be around the kids alone. And I don't have a very good relationship with my siblings now. I feel like two of them specifically really think that I'm, like, a demon, especially for what I do now. Like, I went on escaping polygamy. I talk out against the group. I am. And I think Mormons believe the same thing, where it's one thing to leave, it's another thing to blaspheme.

Margi Dehlin [02:14:58] Yep. So it's a tough spot right now with the relationship. And I'm like, I'm grateful that I can have what weird relationship I do have because so many of them are cut off when they leave, like, dead to me. I don't know how mothers can do that to their own daughters and sons, but, like, they're trained to just, boop, never existed.

John Dehlin [02:15:20] So, like, in the past year, how much time have you spent with your mom?

Margi Dehlin [02:15:23] So it's been 10 years now since I left.

John Dehlin [02:15:25] So you left in 2013. Okay.

Margi Dehlin [02:15:30] And so it's evolved to. I mean, getting to see my mom a little more. And My mom's been a little more, like, understanding, and there's been a few breakthrough talks that we've had, but I honestly think I've only seen my mom maybe three times this year. Okay, but that's better than what it, you know, what it could have been. I'm not, like, trying to complain too much, but I wish that. That religion didn't ruin the entire relationship. Right. Because we were close at one point. I feel like I had a really deep bond with my mom at one point, but.

John Dehlin [02:16:06] And how many minutes do you need to leave? I'm just a time check, really.

Margi Dehlin [02:16:09] I know. I'm like, we can go for 20 more minutes.

John Dehlin [02:16:12] 20 more minutes. Okay. Okay. Okay.

Amanda Rae [02:16:15] So can I just say, you have lived through so, so much and I think really had to make decisions as a young person with such great cost, like, so many costs and reality, like living in this constant place of like, checking your reality. Like, I'm. Am I crazy like you were saying?

Margi Dehlin [02:16:41] Yeah.

Amanda Rae [02:16:42] Like you watching something and having an experience and then having men or, you know, the conditioning be like, that is not what you saw. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:16:53] You know, it's constant gaslighting and it. I do feel like it. It affected, sadly, a lot of my ex. Member life because if I didn't do therapy, I don't think that I would be here today. You know what I mean?

Amanda Rae [02:17:06] I can imagine why. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah.

Rebuilding Life Outside the Kingston Order

John Dehlin [02:17:09] So let's talk about. Let's finish by talking about reconstruction. So you're 18, you're raised in a cult, a polygamous cult. How do you. And then you're cut off from your. Effectively cut off from your parents and siblings. How did you. How did you. Did you crash? And whether you crashed or not, how have you rebuilt?

Margi Dehlin [02:17:34] Yeah, I think that going through the deconstruction was a really scary, scary part of my life. I almost became Mormon because it was so familiar. There was this piece of me when I left. I was like, what? I need to be doing something with my Sundays. I need to be worshiping the Lord. I felt like God was. I still had a belief in God. I just didn't believe in the God that they. Cause I just had this point of my life where I was like, if God's like what you guys say, I don't want to go there.

John Dehlin [02:18:00] No Kingston God.

Margi Dehlin [02:18:01] Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:18:02] You don't believe in Kingston God.

Margi Dehlin [02:18:03] He doesn't even. He sounds like Satan to me. He sounds like a hater.

Amanda Rae [02:18:06] And there's that urge to, like, replace it. What can I replace it with?

Margi Dehlin [02:18:10] It really Was. And it was so, like, scary to me to think of no God. So I was gravitating towards. I had my adopted family at this time. They knew the situation. They were Mormon. That was the Mormon friend that I met in Wasach Junior High. Her family knew what was going on.

John Dehlin [02:18:27] Did you live with them?

Margi Dehlin [02:18:28] Yeah. They're like, we're taking you in.

John Dehlin [02:18:29] Oh, wow.

Margi Dehlin [02:18:30] We're going to take care of you. You're. They. They were so good about not pressuring me to go to church. They. They. They didn't pressure me to, like, do things that were going to make me be triggered again. But they did ask, would you be comfortable with missionaries coming over? Would you. Would. Is this something that you'd like? We as a family usually do these things, but you don't have to, but you are a part of the family if you want. Would like to. So I agreed to see missionaries, and I really liked the idea until I started doing research on Joseph Smith. And I was like, it's the same thing. So I.

Amanda Rae [02:19:04] Critical thinking, though.

Margi Dehlin [02:19:05] Yeah, I couldn't join because I was like, this is the same thing. And then I got really depressed because I was like, there's nothing then. We don't exist. There's no point to anything. And I remember I was jogging in my. My adoptive family's neighborhood, and this is

John Dehlin [02:19:19] here on the east side.

Margi Dehlin [02:19:21] Yep. Wasatch area. And I just. I was thinking in depth about what I believed in, and I just fell down and like, bawled on the. On the trail, like, there is nothing. Everything that I have believed in has been a lie and there is no purpose. And this lasted for a good week of, like, no sense of belonging or, like, I lost my entire community. I lost everything that I ever believed in. It was all a lie. And now I. Who even am I? And I had to slowly rebuild that and come to terms with, okay, well, you've had certain experiences that made you believe these certain core beliefs, and those beliefs are because someone told you to believe them.

Margi Dehlin [02:20:02] So it was really tough. And because of my beliefs of the order, I wanted to get married. So I got married 18. And I did still live the. A lot of the. Honestly, I was like an outside order member because I didn't swear, I didn't drink. I still was very much living the ABC order standards. I just didn't live the polygamy. I didn't want to live the marry your brother thing.

John Dehlin [02:20:27] And was your husband religious?

Margi Dehlin [02:20:30] He had escaped, too, but he was of the Hansen family, and my dad knew that I wanted to marry him, but he was not Kingston, and I was destined to marry a Kingston. So we left together. But the sad part about that whole thing is he still had this weird.

Margi Dehlin [02:20:51] Almost like, well, Paul never did anything wrong to me. And Paul could still be a good person, and I would be. I remember being like, he is sleeping with his sisters and his nieces and 27 women in the name of the Lord, like, let that digest right now. So a lot of our marriage was me being like, stop. Like, we're not in the order anymore. But I also had those tendencies to be like, we need to be going to church. We needed to be doing something. Yep. So it was a really hard relationship to have. And I never felt safe enough to have kids with him because of his belief on. On. On gays. His belief on, like, I just didn't want to have kids with someone who was gonna repeat the cycle.

John Dehlin [02:21:37] What did he believe about gays?

Margi Dehlin [02:21:39] That it was wrong. That's what he would say. I don't like saying too much about him just because I think this is.

John Dehlin [02:21:46] Well, what do the Kingstons believe about gays? Let's put it that way.

Margi Dehlin [02:21:49] Right. And with him, like, that's the version of him I knew. He's probably changed. Hopefully grown, let's hope. But yeah, the Kingstons definitely believe that being gay is a sin. They had their own forms of conversion therapy. There were married men that were gay. They were going to conversion therapy. It was a very sinful thing. So to be married, though, and leave this cult and fight so hard to get out and then end up with someone who's gonna instill the same beliefs on my kids, I was like, I can't do this. So I finally filed for divorce.

John Dehlin [02:22:18] How long were you married?

Margi Dehlin [02:22:20] Seven years.

John Dehlin [02:22:21] And what'd you guys do? Work or education wise? Did you go to school? Did he go to school? Where'd you work?

Margi Dehlin [02:22:26] I worked so many different jobs. I kind of. It was like an order. Wife, happy wifey. Like, I followed him around. I did construction with him. Like, I just kind of let him live his life and put my life on hold.

John Dehlin [02:22:35] Here in the valley?

Margi Dehlin [02:22:38] No, there's a. And I. I don't know how much you know this, but it's a. Ex members of the order had their own construction business. Business where they would go around the west coast and, like, we go to Oregon, Washington, Arizona, and I would follow him around and eventually started working with him.

John Dehlin [02:22:55] So you're doing construction?

Margi Dehlin [02:22:56] Yeah, I was doing flooring. And then I got to a point where I was like, this is not for me. This is not what I want to be doing. I got back into therapy and was able to. I kind of just was doing jobs here and there. I. And then I did. I did have escaping polygamy. Escaping pulling me. Reached out to me and wanted me to be part of the show. And that was one of my biggest things.

John Dehlin [02:23:18] And what year was that about?

Margi Dehlin [02:23:21] That was when my wedding is on. Escaping polygamy. Oh yeah. So I got married the year after leaving. So I left 2013, got married May of 2014 and they aired it on escaping polygamy. Told the whole story, but that was little 18 year old Amanda doing what. What was best, what I thought was best for me. Right.

Amanda Rae [02:23:38] And it. And it sounds like too kind of unprocessed.

Margi Dehlin [02:23:42] Oh, yeah.

Amanda Rae [02:23:42] And what happens when you know, you want to make a break from something, but also it's unprocessed in your mind is that you tend to repeat or go to again what's familiar or your default or remnants of conditioning.

Margi Dehlin [02:23:58] It's so true. And I like to look at how many people have left and jumped right into a healthy relationship. I can't count anyone that have left a cult and jumped straight into a healthy relationship. Because you don't have the skills. The healthy skills. All you know is this is what I did. All I know is what I don't want, but I don't know what is healthy.

Amanda Rae [02:24:19] Yeah, that's like what it looks like.

Margi Dehlin [02:24:21] It's like having a heart surgeon know what not to do, but not know what to do. You're gonna mess it up. And so I walked into this marriage thinking that, you know, all you need is love, but that's not. In reality. All you need is love is not true. You need to have healthy communication. You need to be able to understand each other and see where each other's coming from. And we just got to a point where I was doing a lot of therapy and I wanted him to go to therapy with me, but he didn't think that it was something he needed. I found a lot of value in it. And then eventually we were just on two completely different places. And so I filed for divorce in 2021. Beginning of 2021.

John Dehlin [02:25:01] That's two years ago.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:25:02] Oh, wow.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:03] Yep. And then literally moved to Vegas and I got out of Utah. I was like, I'm done living this life. Like, I had never drank before, had never. No tattoos. No. It was very strict. And he was the head of the house type thing. It felt like coming from a cult and going into coming from a cage, going into a little bigger cage.

Amanda Rae [02:25:21] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:22] And then divorcing felt like, wow. Now I get to know who Amanda really is without the fear of, what's he gonna think? What's God gonna think? What's. You know what I mean?

John Dehlin [02:25:34] But Vegas is crazy town, right?

Margi Dehlin [02:25:36] Oh, yeah. I don't know if that was the best thing I was gonna say.

Amanda Rae [02:25:39] That's like, the wide, wide world.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:41] Yeah. So I come from this very strict, you know, Utah. It's illegal to drink, basically, where you go to Vegas, and it's, like, illegal to be sober over there. And everyone I knew had some kind of addiction. And I was like, is this what the world is now? Is this the real life? So I dove into just becoming friends with people out there and. And learning really quick, which thank God, that I learned fast to the point where I realized, okay, I don't want to live in Vegas. I know what my values are.

John Dehlin [02:26:12] So you would date men, I assume, as a single woman? Yep.

Margi Dehlin [02:26:16] In Vegas.

John Dehlin [02:26:17] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:26:19] Oh, I had some terrible experiences, that's for sure. But I learned from them.

John Dehlin [02:26:23] Yeah. Okay.

Margi Dehlin [02:26:23] Yeah. And so I moved out of Vegas, and I feel like I'm in a more healthy place now. I still.

Amanda Rae [02:26:31] Still.

Margi Dehlin [02:26:31] I love therapy, and I thank. Thank God that I did decide to do therapy and commit to that.

John Dehlin [02:26:37] What were your jobs in. In Vegas, before we talk about therapy, what were your. What did you do for work?

Margi Dehlin [02:26:41] I was a cocktail waitress. Remember I was telling you that?

Amanda Rae [02:26:43] Right.

Margi Dehlin [02:26:43] I was a cocktail waitress. So it was just like. And then you meet the worst kind of guy. Sorry not to, like, generalize, but the guy I dated for the longest in Vegas was living with a girlfriend the whole time, and I had no idea. So basically, I was forced to. To live polygamy.

John Dehlin [02:26:58] More secrecy.

Margi Dehlin [02:26:59] Yeah. And so dishonesty and reality.

Amanda Rae [02:27:02] Things where you think it's one way, but you're being told it's another way.

Margi Dehlin [02:27:06] Oh, yeah. Like, that's a repeat. Yeah, exactly. I was seeing how he would act around women, and I was like, is this normal? I feel like it's flirty that what he's doing, but maybe this is normal. I don't want to be like, you know, thinking he's trying to live polygamy, because I did have my therapist at the time.

Margi Dehlin [02:27:24] The reason I stayed with him so long was because my therapist was like, well, you don't want to be going through his phone. I think that you're just having these thoughts because you came from the polygamous cult, and you think that all Men are like that. But no, my gut was right. So I've struggled with this trusting myself thing, and I feel like I finally found it right now I'm like, okay, I'm gonna forever trust my gut now, because I was right. Went through his phone and there it was. The evidence was right there. And I had been wasting so much of my time, but.

Margi Dehlin [02:27:56] So I think a lot of people go through that, like, not knowing what's normal, getting in unhealthy relationships, trying to figure out what you want, where your core beliefs and values are in that life of relationships. And then finally after that, I feel like I've made peace with where I'm at to an extent.

Appearing on Television and Telling Her Story Publicly

John Dehlin [02:28:13] So these four years on a TV show, did you think about becoming a TV star? Like, was that financially useful? Did you think about making a career out of being an advocate for ex fundamentalists or ex cult people? How did, like, I would assume you're on TV for four years, you're gonna become rich and famous, and that's just,

Margi Dehlin [02:28:34] you know, that's where your brain goes.

John Dehlin [02:28:37] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:28:38] I honestly, whenever I talk about this, I feel like I sound so crazy. But when I was 15, in the order and I was having these moments of. Of questioning myself and feeling like I'm taking crazy pills, there was moments, multiple moments, where I knew I was gonna be talking about the order on tv. Oh, I knew I was gonna be exposing them as soon as I got out, which is crazy at the time. I'm like, is this God telling me what my calling is?

John Dehlin [02:29:03] That the universe worked out that way?

Amanda Rae [02:29:05] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:29:06] Literally. The year I left, I got contacted by producers to share my story on escape and polygamy. I wasn't originally a part of the plan of escape and polygamy, and then I was signed on for four years, and I've since then been continuing the advocacy because I feel like that's what feels right for me because there's so many women there that are. I know they're thinking the same thing. I know they want to say these things, but they are being silenced.

John Dehlin [02:29:33] And only answer this if you're comfortable, but can you make. Do you make decent money being on a. Four years on a TV program or not on escaping?

Margi Dehlin [02:29:41] For me.

John Dehlin [02:29:41] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:29:42] No, I don't think documentaries make that much, do they?

John Dehlin [02:29:45] So you. You need a little bit, but not much.

Margi Dehlin [02:29:47] Not enough to, like, really, you know, live well off of. But I was happy to do it.

John Dehlin [02:29:53] Subsistence living.

Margi Dehlin [02:29:54] Yeah. I would do it all over again because.

John Dehlin [02:29:57] Because of the advocacy.

Margi Dehlin [02:29:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:29:59] Not cause you made good money.

Amanda Rae [02:30:00] No, I'm curious about the experience you had. I don't know if I haven't watched the show, but if you're going back into the communities where you experienced kind of some of the things that you experienced, like, did you. Was it healing? Was it empowering? Was it traumatizing?

John Dehlin [02:30:20] Was it dangerous?

Amanda Rae [02:30:21] Yes. Like, what was your actual experience? Even psychologically with it?

Margi Dehlin [02:30:26] Oh, yeah, it's definitely going back into the Order territory. Was a psychological mind just like roller coaster. Because all these people that were helping leave the Order, our family, and two of them, well, three of them were my own, My mom and my two siblings. Three of the escapes was my own direct family. And it was very.

Margi Dehlin [02:30:51] Just like a lot of guilt and shame, actually, when I was helping my younger sister because my dad had told me a dream that I was gonna bring. Basically I was burning and getting cremated and my sister was getting in the. In the cremation, burning with me. And that's like a spiritual death. And he starts crying and he's like, I'm not gonna let you take her with you. And here I am on national television taking her with me. Having his direction come true. Right? So I remember feeling a lot of guilt and shame that all of this is gonna be. But then I had to fight that and be like, that's not true.

Margi Dehlin [02:31:22] These are just the things that these crazy people believe. Like, I had to always talk to myself and be my own best friend, because otherwise I was gonna fall into that traumatic, guilt, shame filled version of myself.

John Dehlin [02:31:35] And did you ever fear for your life that it was dangerous? Did the church. Did the Kingston church view you as their biggest enemy? This is a national TV show. You're trying to not just take people out, but take people out on national television.

Margi Dehlin [02:31:49] Yeah, they definitely don't like me. But I also believe that the cameras brought so much safety. They were not willing to do anything scary in front of those cameras. Once those cameras were on, we were protected, but we also had bodyguards.

Margi Dehlin [02:32:02] The one time I got really scared was actually in the FLDS going down to the Crick, because this is unfamiliar territory. And then we get pulled over and these cops with guns, you know, police officers are also in the group. So I'm freaking out, like, they can do whatever they want. That was the scariest for me because it was unfamiliar with the Order. I knew their habits. I knew I was one of them. So I felt familiar and comfortable with this. It was more of just the guilt, shame, that trauma that comes with it. In my own story, coming Up FLDS was like, what the hell's gonna happen to us?

Margi Dehlin [02:32:36] We're not gonna get out of here alive. There was one time where I felt that way. I got a little freaked out, but it was just because it was unfamiliar territory.

John Dehlin [02:32:43] And why did it end? Or why is. Why isn't it still the show? Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:32:47] So they had wanted us to have 10 escapes per season. And I was like, it's one thing to have an escape, and it's another thing to have someone be willing to escape on camera. So we were like, we can't give you 10 escapes. I think the network just really wanted more escapes and focusing on escapes. And we were like, we can't predict how many escapes we can get per year. Wow.

John Dehlin [02:33:15] It's almost like you're producing escapes.

Margi Dehlin [02:33:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:33:18] Wow.

Margi Dehlin [02:33:19] I would try to tell them, I know this person has been talking to me. I know this person, but I'm not gonna. That's where it got sad, because a lot of times I was like, I don't want people to think I'm pressuring them into being exploited. You know what I mean? So I tried to be very much like this person. We're not talking to this person because they're not. They don't want to be on tv.

Amanda Rae [02:33:34] Yeah, that's tricky.

John Dehlin [02:33:37] I think I'm struck by how little participants in documentaries make. TV documentaries make, but I don't think documentaries make a lot of, like, those who make the movies. I don't think they make a lot of money either. So. So it's just a hard business overall, really. I mean, maybe the networks make a lot of money, like Netflix, but like, my friend Tyler Meesum, and, you know, they did Murder among the Mormons, and that was one of Netflix's top, you know, documentaries for a while. I know if you did it hourly, working over three years, and all the work they put into it, it's not great money. So someone may be making money, but it's not the.

Margi Dehlin [02:34:13] It's not the ones doing the producers,

John Dehlin [02:34:15] and it's certainly not the participants. Margi, you had a question?

Therapy, Healing, and Finding Stability

Amanda Rae [02:34:20] Yeah, I was. It is just so clear to me how effortful you've been with how much you've been through. And we were talking earlier, and you had mentioned kind of some. Some things that have been healing for you or really key in rebuilding and therapy being one of those things. What are some other things that you would want to kind of mention or talk about quickly that have really been key for you kind of coming back to yourself or creating a life for yourself so far.

Margi Dehlin [02:34:54] I definitely think that a big part of how I was able to get where I'm at now is being able to have a sense of community out here, which I was lucky enough to have three of my siblings from my mom's family leave with me, and we kind of have been fighting the world together out here.

John Dehlin [02:35:13] So of the 10, four have left? Is that what you're saying?

Margi Dehlin [02:35:15] Four total of my mom's kids have left, and we've kind of just hung,

John Dehlin [02:35:19] and they're here in Salt, like, in the valley. Oh, okay.

Margi Dehlin [02:35:21] So we all moved out of Utah together, and we eventually want to all be in the same state together. We really are super close, and we've been able to rely on each other for emotional support because we all are going through the same thing. We don't have a connection to our dad. You know, same thing with our mom. We spend Christmases together.

Amanda Rae [02:35:38] Oh, that's so significant.

Margi Dehlin [02:35:40] Yeah. But therapy, I think, has been one of the biggest things, and I was offered it for free. I don't think I would have had therapy if it weren't for holding out help. It's a foundation that helps with, you know, people that come out of these polygamous cults, and they helped me to get free therapy.

John Dehlin [02:35:57] This is Tanya from Holding Out Help. Right. Do you know that I talked to Tanya today? Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:36:02] Okay. So you do? Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:36:04] Keep going, Keep going.

Amanda Rae [02:36:05] I feel like that is so huge, too.

Margi Dehlin [02:36:07] Yeah, yeah. So they gave me free therapy. They gave me. They now have options for people to stay at. Like, they have a woman's home. They have a men's home. And then they gave me the help to apply to jobs, because how do I apply to a job? I don't even know the first thing about that, because I was just given my jobs at my cult.

Amanda Rae [02:36:29] Right.

Margi Dehlin [02:36:30] So having that kind of help was really important. And so every time someone's trying to leave the order and they need a place to go, I always, like, reference that, because that's.

John Dehlin [02:36:37] So it's holding out help. It's a Utah nonprofit.

Margi Dehlin [02:36:39] Yes. And I know multiple people who stay at that amazing home. It's like a halfway home, but, yeah. Community, sense of community. The help. It's amazing how many people now are out of this cult and how many of us should be getting to know each other and rebuilding that. What we've lost. So that's why I try to do these Malibu retreats. Now. They're women retreats where we have ex FLDS members, ex Order members. We all get together in California and we kind of try to rebuild the relationships that we lost because a lot of us, when someone leaves, they're cut off. So then we have people who have left like years ago and now like a fresh person who leaves gets to rebuild that relationship with the person they weren't allowed to be with.

Amanda Rae [02:37:21] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [02:37:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:37:22] And that's Tanya Toole withholding out help.

Margi Dehlin [02:37:25] Oh yeah, withholding out help, that one. But then the Malibu retreat is actually something that I fund. Well, I get it with my, my channel following. If they, if you, if anyone's interested in supporting that Malibu fund, it's just a bunch of ex members. We have FLDS members and we have order members who we all come together and we get, we do this retreat. But I have mugs that I sell on my website and all of the profits of those mugs goes towards this retreat.

John Dehlin [02:37:53] And how do. So I. Well, I want to come back to that, but really quickly. Margi asked you. Therapy, community, finding friends and community. Any other big little secret tips for working out of a high demand religion?

Margi Dehlin [02:38:06] The resources, resources, the community and therapy. And I think honestly this is a form of therapy, but diary entries, journal entries, and doing check ins with yourself and it allows you to trust yourself and know yourself. To have that relationship with yourself is, is way more important than having a relationship with anyone else. Because that's when I started to realize, oh my gosh, the reason why I'm attracting so many unhealthy people is because I'm unhealthy myself. So once you can become healthy within yourself, you can attract healthy relationships.

Amanda Rae [02:38:40] I love that so much. Yeah. Yeah.

YouTube Channel and Ongoing Advocacy

John Dehlin [02:38:44] Okay, so you have a, you have a YouTube channel. I know you have to go plug the heck out of everything. How do people feel? What do you cover in your YouTube channel? How do people cover it? What other things do you want people to know so that they can support the work you do?

Margi Dehlin [02:38:57] Yes. So we have. My YouTube channel is Amanda Rae, if you want to go over there. Yeah, Rae, I explain all of the stuff we talked about, but in depth with like the, the leadership and like we go into, we even talk about Cody Brown. It's a fun over there. We go live every Sunday and then

John Dehlin [02:39:14] you interview X Kingston people, but also just ex fundamentalists of all types.

Margi Dehlin [02:39:19] I've interviewed aub, I've interviewed.

John Dehlin [02:39:22] That's Apostolic United Brethren, which is the all red group. Right, okay.

Margi Dehlin [02:39:25] The one Cody Brown came from. But I also do videos where I, where I watch Sister Wives and I kind of review it and talk about it and talk about my own experience in correlation with what they are showing.

Margi Dehlin [02:39:36] So if you're interested in that kind of stuff and asking me questions on the live streams, go over to my YouTube channel. I also have an Instagram amandaray grant. I also have. I just want to reference two charities. So we have Holding Out Hope for people who are interested in helping. And then we also have Hope After Polygamy, who is a charity that helps funding the school force because a lot of people will leave and they won't even have a ged. People will leave flds and they don't even have a second grade education. Right. So Hope After Polygamy is one that's like a newer foundation but it's ran by a lot of ex members.

Margi Dehlin [02:40:14] So I just wanted to make sure people know that there's a plenty of resources. I want to let people know where they can donate, but also people who are watching who I know there's gonna be a lot of people in the groups that don't know what resources they can have when they leave. There's a lot.

Margi Dehlin [02:40:29] So I mean, in all my videos I have them linked down below. I don't know if you'll have any link down below, but yeah, we will. I think it's really good and important to just yell it out to all these members because they all think that they are trapped and they don't have to be trapped.

John Dehlin [02:40:43] How can people financially support you as a creator?

Margi Dehlin [02:40:46] Watch my. Watch my YouTube channel and go to justcoldietings.com and buy my art.

John Dehlin [02:40:51] Do you have like a Patreon or a donor box or a venmo or a PayPal?

Margi Dehlin [02:40:55] I do have.

John Dehlin [02:40:56] If people want to send you money. How do people send you money?

Margi Dehlin [02:40:59] I need to. I feel so uncomfortable doing this.

John Dehlin [02:41:02] Okay, we're gonna fix that. So right now, do you have a venmo or a PayPal?

Margi Dehlin [02:41:06] You can mention I might have a PayPal, but I always feel uncomfortable because I feel like a cult leader asking for money and I don't like it. It feels weird.

John Dehlin [02:41:15] I totally get that. And creators, if they don't get support, they can't keep.

Margi Dehlin [02:41:18] It's true.

John Dehlin [02:41:19] Being an advocate. So do you have an email tied to a PayPal that you can give people?

Margi Dehlin [02:41:23] I do, I do. I think I do have a PayPal.

Amanda Rae [02:41:25] Well, we want you to feel comfortable. So I just never want someone to

Margi Dehlin [02:41:29] feel like I'm asking for for money. But I know that it would definitely help to.

John Dehlin [02:41:34] You can also share Venmo if you want.

Margi Dehlin [02:41:36] I Don't think. I don't know if I have.

John Dehlin [02:41:38] Okay. Okay. Well, I'll just.

Margi Dehlin [02:41:41] I'll send it to you if you want to. If you want to post it, but

John Dehlin [02:41:44] we'll put it in the. We'll put it in the links. How people can financially support you through PayPal. And I would encourage you not. Not to, you know, step out of my lane, but I would encourage you to create a way for your listeners and viewers who benefit from your content to support you financially, aside from the ad revenue, because there are donors out there that. That want to support you, that believe in you, that care about you, and then they want to see you keep doing the work you do.

John Dehlin [02:42:17] And that's our core. Our core financial support doesn't come from ad revenue. Ad revenue is, like, right now, a third of what, how we support ourselves. It's primarily through the generous donations of people who just become monthly donors.

John Dehlin [02:42:33] They go to mormonstories.org they click on the donate button, they become a monthly donor, and that's what allows us to hire staff to have these facilities. And, you know, I just would encourage you to consider that.

Margi Dehlin [02:42:45] Right, yeah. I've been told this before, too, and I need to just get over this thing. I think it's a. I think it is a cult belief.

John Dehlin [02:42:52] Isn't it amazing that the cult makes billions?

Margi Dehlin [02:42:55] Right.

John Dehlin [02:42:56] But they teach its members that it's evil to even just support yourself financially.

Margi Dehlin [02:43:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:43:01] Isn't that ironic?

Margi Dehlin [02:43:01] There's guilt and shame somehow tied to me, like taking money from people, even though my whole life it made sense to give all of my. To the. To the kingdom of God for free. Right? Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:43:14] Okay, so, donors and listeners, by the time you're watching this, we will have either venmo or a PayPal. Some way for you to support Amanda financially. And I'm going to ask you all to please subscribe to her channel, buy her merch, but also please make donations to her directly as a creator, because

Amanda Rae [02:43:34] you're doing important work and you're beginning now a new life, and you've created a business for yourself that takes time and energy from you. So we see you. I feel so lucky to have witnessed you here today. I feel lucky to be here.

Margi Dehlin [02:43:51] I'm glad that. Thank you guys for having me. This has been a good experience, for sure.

John Dehlin [02:43:55] Our pleasure. All right, so Amanda Ray. Amanda rae is the YouTube channel. Amanda, we're so happy you came. And maybe we'll have you on again as a panelist or commentator because your story's inspiring. You are inspiring.

Amanda Rae [02:44:11] You are.

John Dehlin [02:44:12] And as a member of the community, I want to thank you for the advocacy work you do to help people through hard stuff.

Margi Dehlin [02:44:19] Yeah. Thank you.

Amanda Rae [02:44:21] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:44:22] Thank you for having me. Thank you for helping me share the story.

John Dehlin [02:44:24] Yeah. And, Margi, it's always great to have you. Thanks for being here.

Amanda Rae [02:44:27] Thanks for having me.

Closing Remarks and How to Support Amanda

John Dehlin [02:44:28] All right. Okay. Thanks, everyone, for joining us today on Mormon Stories. You can also subscribe to the Mormon Stories podcast channel, and we thank our monthly donors. And if you want to become a supporter of us as well, we need your support. We rely on your support to keep doing what we're doing. So you can go to MormonStories.org, click on the donate button, become a monthly donor, and that's how we continue. Thanks for your support. Also subscribe to our YouTube channel. We're on TikTok, we're on Instagram, we're on Facebook, and we appreciate it. We've got a lot of good episodes and content coming up, so stay tuned.

John Dehlin [02:45:06] Big thanks to Julia and Maven and Gerardo, and all the people at the Open Stories foundation, including our board, Clint and Carey, that make all this possible. So thanks. Thanks to Margi and be kind to each other. Be good to each other, and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.