Welcome and Episode Overview

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is Monday, April 20, 2026, and this is a special live stream episode of Mormon Stories Podcast. And the purpose of today's episode is to talk about a recent lawsuit that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and an arm of the church called Intellectual Reserve has filed both against the Open Stories foundation, which is the nonprofit that kind of oversees and runs Mormon Stories podcast. But also it's a lawsuit directed at me personally, which means me and my family. The lawsuit, if I can do my best to kind of summarize it, and I'll just stipulate up front, I've not read the lawsuit yet and there's, there's a reason why. The way that I heard about this lawsuit, it was last Friday afternoon is as my memory best holds, I'm out of town in California and I receive a text that some Instagram posts and some videos from a well known Mormon apologist named Jasmine Rapley. I still don't remember how to pronounce her name, but this, this Mormon influencer was posting about and sharing YouTube videos about a lawsuit when I wasn't even aware that a lawsuit had been filed, nor had I had a chance to review the lawsuit. So that's how I first learned about the lawsuit. Margaret and I were out of town until literally 11pm last night. And then this morning, I've been in meetings with attorneys all morning, so I have not had a chance to read this lawsuit yet. But what I was made aware of in addition to the lawsuit being filed and seeing Jasmine's statements on Instagram and elsewhere and Jasmine's videos, was that the church had also issued a formal statement. And so I read that and immediately I was quite alarmed, you know, shocked and disturbed and surprised by the church's statement because number one, I thought that

John Dehlin [00:02:47] maybe they would, maybe that I would

John Dehlin [00:02:51] have heard first from the church that I had been sued, but I didn't. And my understanding is our side didn't receive word of the filing until something like 8 or 9pm that evening from, from the other side. So anyway, I guess I'm trying to say is I thought that we would be notified and provided with the lawsuit, but that's not how it worked. What happened was, is what seemed to be like a social media apparatus released statements and videos and posts across multiple channels on social media. And, and honestly, I tried to search the Federal Register for the lawsuit and it didn't show up. And so I had to go to Jasmine's YouTube video. And we had to like screenshot the case number that was shown on the video to then like write the case number down to then go search for it in the database. And that's how I was finally able to obtain a copy of, of the lawsuit and share it with all the people on my side. So, and I'm not, you know, I'm not asking for pity, I'm just being honest. And this is just my best memory. It's all been a blur. So if I, if I get something wrong in this episode, it's not my intention. I'm just sharing my, my best memory, my feelings, my reactions. And mostly because we've always valued transparency. On Mormon Stories podcast, we're donor supported and we feel like our donors and supporters and listeners deserve a right to know what's going on. And even though I don't feel totally prepared for today's episode this afternoon because you know, the church has now had three or four days that Friday, Saturday, Sunday. Yeah, three or four, three or four days to spin the narrative and to put out their side of the story, I felt like we owed at least some type of response now and I hope to do many, many more episodes in the coming weeks, months and years. Thank you for everyone who's joining us on the live stream. You know, some people have been generous to provide donations. We are really grateful for that. Flight Angels did a super chat 2001. Thank you Theresa Palmer, thanks for your donation material. Joined as well as Chelsea, Milan and Susie Catherine 8570 thank you for the donation. Perg5524. You know, I don't want to bog our our episode down with thanking everyone who provides super chats or donates. I will say at the outset that this lawsuit is going to likely cost hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars. I'm not exaggerating. And so we have set up a legal defense fund for anyone who is able or willing to financially support us. I know I have seen several people out on social media who have asked how they can support financially. I'm just going to start with that because we are going to need hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars. And I have no idea whether that's even realistic to hope for. But we're at least going to give people a chance to support if they can and they want to.

John Dehlin [00:06:38] So the link to support the Mormon

John Dehlin [00:06:41] Stories defense fund is MormonStories.org legal. And you can make one time donations there, you can make monthly donations there, you can make Weekly donations there, whatever you want. I will say that those donations are tax deductible. In the US we're transparent in our finances. And you know, my commitment is to use every dollar of those donations towards legal expenses. I'm happy to be transparent about the donations I receive and to share a full accounting of what donations I received and how they were spent. You know, whatever makes people feel good. And if we get more donations then, then we end up having expenses and

John Dehlin [00:07:31] donors want their money back.

John Dehlin [00:07:33] That would be a wonderful problem to have refunding donors that want their money back. So I'm open to whatever makes sense to those who are supporting us. We just want to be able to weather this lawsuit. Obviously the Mormon Church is worth somewhere between 300 and $500 billion. This is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints or the LDS Church. They're worth somewhere between 300 and 500 billion estimated dollars. Some say the Church is worth as much as a trillion dollars. We are a nonprofit that brings in much, much, much less than that. We have two full time employees, a couple independent contractors. And so you know, that's what we're up against is a multi hundreds of billions of dollars multinational corporation that has the protections of a church or religion with hundreds of millions of dollars in all its power and influence. And then there's our small little nonprofit with a couple employees and whatever donations we're willing to receive. So again, MormonStories.org legal is how you can support us. Again, it's tax deductible.

John Dehlin [00:08:51] And so what I hope to do today is to at least answer some of the main questions I've been getting

John Dehlin [00:09:01] and to address the press release that the Church put out and to share with you why I think the Church hasn't been honest or at least in my opinion the Church is not being honest both about what efforts we made to accommodate them and then also what they asked for. I think in both instances the Church

John Dehlin [00:09:29] doesn't seem to be telling the truth.

John Dehlin [00:09:32] You know, that's we're going to try and cover and we'll see where, where we go.

Background on the Lawsuit Against Mormon Stories

John Dehlin [00:09:38] So where to begin? So I'll maybe I'll just give my

John Dehlin [00:09:42] first best accounting of some of the main high level events. So sometime late last year, November, December, we received an email from Intellectual Reserve that basically informed us that from the Church's standpoint we had violated their trademark and their copyright rights. And they expressed concern about several things. They didn't like that one of the logos that we use is blue. We've used A gold logo with light rays for many, many years. But we also have used a blue logo that was done in coordination with a brand redesign that happened a few years back. And they didn't like the fact that we used a blue logo. They communicated to me that they didn't like the fact that we use the word Mormon in our podcast name. They didn't like it that we used it in our social media handles or on our Internet domain names. My. My experience and memory is that they communicated very clearly to me that they were wanting us to take Mormon out of our name, out of our Internet domain, and out of our social media handles before mediation ever happened.

John Dehlin [00:11:17] That.

John Dehlin [00:11:17] That's my memory and recollection.

John Dehlin [00:11:20] But. But before attorneys got involved, I began

John Dehlin [00:11:24] an exchange with Intellectual Reserve, the church's copyright folks. And I basically just said, listen, I don't think we violated your trademarks. I don't think we violated your copyrights. I think what the way that we've used images, we. We feel like our understanding is we're using them under fair use. We see church, we see all sorts of images being used in all sorts of places by podcasters and YouTubers of all types. You just search the Internet and all sorts of images are being used everywhere in thumbnails. And so that's how we've been operating. So we didn't feel like we were really violating copyright. We felt like we were operating under fair use. We didn't feel like we were violating trademarks. You know, we've been using the Mormon stories name for 21 years. We started Mormon Stories in 2005. We literally went 20, 21 years without the Church ever raising concern about the name Mormon Stories. We went multiple years without the Church raising concern about the use of copyrighted images in our thumbnails. At least as far as my memory goes. We've got many years with our logo

John Dehlin [00:12:47] being blue, one of our logos being blue.

John Dehlin [00:12:50] We went many years with our YouTube banner and our Facebook banner and other things, being a part of this website redesign. When our website redesigner did the website redesign, I believe that there were a couple places where the Christus was incorporated. I. I do not believe that that was done with any intent to deceive the Christus. As I have always understood it and many other people tell me the Christus was a statue that was made by a never Mormon. I believe decades, if not hundreds of years ago. And again, light rays, you know, was something the Church expressed a concern in. We had been using light rays on our gold Mormon Stories logo for I think well over a decade, I think, before the church started using light rays and its trademarking and branding, we were using light rays in our trademark and branding.

John Dehlin [00:13:52] But regardless, when we entered into

John Dehlin [00:13:56] conversations with the trademark office back in November, December, I just basically said, you know,

John Dehlin [00:14:03] we don't think we violated copyright or trademark.

John Dehlin [00:14:07] We. But we want to operate in good faith. We want to be reasonable.

John Dehlin [00:14:15] So tell us what changes you want us to make, and we will do our best to accommodate. So I believe if not. The very day I received concerns from

John Dehlin [00:14:27] the church, I immediately changed our logo from blue to orange. As soon as I was able, I blurred out the rays that they expressed concern with.

John Dehlin [00:14:41] As soon as I was able, I

John Dehlin [00:14:42] blurred out the Christus that they expressed

John Dehlin [00:14:46] concern about, even though we didn't think

John Dehlin [00:14:49] that was even an image that was owned or controlled by the church. And basically, I got back to the. I got back to intellectual reserve and I said, hey,

John Dehlin [00:15:03] what else? I feel like I've changed everything. Oh, there was one image that we

John Dehlin [00:15:07] used of Russell M. Nelson that they didn't like that we used in a thumbnail.

John Dehlin [00:15:13] And so I. I replaced it.

John Dehlin [00:15:16] I used a different image that wasn't, by my understanding, owned or copyrighted by the church. I replaced it in the thumbnail, and I uploaded a new thumbnail, and I let them know.

John Dehlin [00:15:25] And I felt like I. I literally

John Dehlin [00:15:27] addressed every concern they had. And my memory is. The response that we got was, well, we need to go to mediation and involve lawyers. And I literally, you know, sent them a spreadsheet. And I said, listen, I feel like

John Dehlin [00:15:42] I'm operating in good faith here.

John Dehlin [00:15:44] Look at all the changes that I have already made.

John Dehlin [00:15:47] Here's a spreadsheet.

John Dehlin [00:15:48] I'll give you full access to it.

John Dehlin [00:15:50] You list every single copyright or trademark

John Dehlin [00:15:54] infringement that you allege, and I will change if I feel like it's reasonable. And the response I remember getting was, no, we need to take this to attorneys and mediate.

John Dehlin [00:16:07] So

John Dehlin [00:17:11] I was bummed that we couldn't just.

John Dehlin [00:17:16] Couldn't just handle it directly, but they insisted on mediation.

John Dehlin [00:17:22] We, we thought about whether or not

John Dehlin [00:17:24] we wanted to do mediation, and we decided that it made sense to do a good faith effort at mediation. And so we, we decided to do mediation. We declined their request that mediation be confidential or private

John Dehlin [00:17:46] because we felt like

John Dehlin [00:17:52] you, all our viewers, our listeners, and mostly our donors deserve to understand what was being demanded or asked of us. And we, we didn't want to be accused of, of secret dealings or, you know, there's been all sorts of interesting conspiracy theories about, about, you know, me and being a stooge for the church, you know, about me being a mole for the church, about me being under the church's control. And so, yeah, we just declined the requirement that mediation be confidential. And then also,

John Dehlin [00:18:31] you know, even though

John Dehlin [00:18:33] the communication I received suggested that very clearly the top ask was to remove Mormon from the podcast name from all our social media handles and from our domain, and to stop and change our name and stop using the term Mormon, we did just make it very clear before, you know, we ever entered mediation. And when I say we here, I'm just talking about me and the decision makers in the osf. So we just made it really clear that we were not open to any discussion that involved taking Mormon out of our name or changing our name in any meaningful way.

John Dehlin [00:19:20] So, you know, that's how it began.

History and Mission of Mormon Stories Podcast

John Dehlin [00:19:26] And before I talk about what happened in mediation or some of what happened in mediation, I just want to sort of go back a little bit and just say, you know, there's been a lot of talk that Mormon Stories podcast was named with an intent to deceive people. And I just want to speak heart to heart and remind everyone that in 2005, when I started Mormon Stories Podcast, I was an active church attending, committed Latter Day Saint for the better part of those 10 years, from 2005 to 2015, when the church excommunicated me. I started Mormon Stories with the desire to provide transparency to the church's history, to its truth claims, to the ways that the church can sometimes harm people. So later I coined, I kind of summarize Those intentions as informed consent. I believed that I had been misled by the church and that others had been misled by the church, and that

John Dehlin [00:20:41] people who are members of the church

John Dehlin [00:20:43] or the people who are learning about the church deserve to know the truth about the church's history, about its truth claims, and about the way that it sometimes harms people. But I started it from within with

John Dehlin [00:20:57] the desire to help make the Church better.

John Dehlin [00:21:02] I started with the belief that just like the Church taught that truth is the fairest gem, that truth was sacred above all things. And so that was my original intention, and that has never changed in the 21 years that I've been doing Mormon Stories. My first intention and main intention has just always been transparency and informed consent and, and truthfulness around the church's history and its truth claims.

John Dehlin [00:21:36] And then the other.

John Dehlin [00:21:37] The second thing that caused me to start Mormon Stories Podcast was realizing that

John Dehlin [00:21:42] people were feeling lied to and betrayed.

John Dehlin [00:21:44] With the rise of the Internet and other books, people were being harmed by the Church, that families were being destroyed, that marriages were being torn apart, that people were getting divorced, that LGBT people were becoming depressed and contemplating suicide over the ways that the church was misleading and, or harming people.

John Dehlin [00:22:08] And that just the, just the experience

John Dehlin [00:22:10] of a faith crisis could be traumatic and even deadly, but it could definitely lead to divorce, destruction of families, loss of community, depression, anxiety, even suicidality, and occasionally death.

John Dehlin [00:22:27] And so a second main motivation for

John Dehlin [00:22:30] Mormon Stories podcast has always been to

John Dehlin [00:22:33] support people in faith crisis. And we've worked really hard to never push people out, to never try and get them to leave and to never

John Dehlin [00:22:42] advise them to leave.

John Dehlin [00:22:44] And I challenge any of you to

John Dehlin [00:22:46] find evidence that I've told someone to leave the church or even express the desire to get people out of the church, because I really don't believe that's ever been my intention.

John Dehlin [00:23:01] So that was the second thing.

John Dehlin [00:23:02] And the third thing that, you know, I hoped would happen as a result of Mormon Stories and the Open Stories foundation was that the church would improve because the church impacts millions and millions of people.

John Dehlin [00:23:17] You know, and it's so rich, it's

John Dehlin [00:23:19] so powerful, the Church is likely never going away. But if, you know, I, or we in the Open Stories foundation could help the church do less harm or do better, then that would be a real win for, for millions of people.

John Dehlin [00:23:38] So those have been our main goals. And I'm mentioning those because I'm going to come back to those goals at

John Dehlin [00:23:42] the end of today's presentation.

John Dehlin [00:23:44] But this idea that, that, that the,

John Dehlin [00:23:47] that the term Mormon stories was used to deceive and to manipulate people, to, to fool them into whatever. It's just not true. And again, I think that's most demonstrated by the fact that for the better part of 10 years, I ran Mormon Stories as an actively attending faithful Latter Day Saint.

John Dehlin [00:24:13] So, yeah, after I got excommunicated, sure,

John Dehlin [00:24:17] that couldn't not have an impact on who would be willing to interview with Mormon stories and the direction the Mormon stories would take.

John Dehlin [00:24:27] But even after my excommunication, I continued,

John Dehlin [00:24:30] I have continued every year to interview active, faithful, believing members of the church, apologists, faithful historians.

John Dehlin [00:24:40] Every year.

John Dehlin [00:24:40] There's not been a year that's gone by with Mormon stories, I believe, where I haven't interviewed multiple faithful actively attending Latter Day Saints.

John Dehlin [00:24:50] And I've also tr. You know, I constantly get thank yous

John Dehlin [00:24:53] from listeners, ex Mormons, never Mormons, who thank me for the tone of Mormon stories because they perceive it to not be bashing, they perceive it to be fair and, you know, attempting to be unbiased and, and of course we have biases or we fall short on always being perfectly unbiased. But I would say I don't know of any podcast or YouTube channel that does a better job of, of interviewing believers and non believers, faithful historians, never Mormons, and that tries to look at all sides of an issue.

John Dehlin [00:25:29] So, so what I'll say is we,

John Dehlin [00:25:30] we, we entered into mediation.

John Dehlin [00:25:34] We had two full days of mediation. And you know, I think what I'd like to do now is maybe read the account of the way the Church characterized it, you know, the, the past several months.

John Dehlin [00:25:51] And then maybe I want to do my best to, to respond to it. So I'm going to go ahead and add the, the, the LDS Church's press release and. Yeah, and then hopefully it'll be interesting. So, so this was, this was issued@churchofjesuschrist.org on Friday. I believe it's called Getting It Right, Clarifying Trademark and Branding Concerns. And I'll read it and respond. The Church of Jesus Christ Latter Day

John Dehlin [00:26:24] Saints has filed a trademark and copyright

John Dehlin [00:26:26] complaint involving Open Stories foundation and its Mormon Stories podcast. The.

John Dehlin [00:26:30] The issue is not the podcast viewpoint.

John Dehlin [00:26:33] It is the Church's use of protected

John Dehlin [00:26:35] names, images and design elements in a

John Dehlin [00:26:38] way that are causing confusion about whether the content is official or affiliated with the Church. Let me just respond to that.

John Dehlin [00:26:46] You know, I can't say what the

John Dehlin [00:26:48] motives of the Church are in filing this lawsuit, and I would like to believe that the issue is not the viewpoint of the podcast.

John Dehlin [00:27:00] I, I will say a couple things

John Dehlin [00:27:02] that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, even by faithful historian standards, has a history of not being honest in its public statements. Right now I'm doing a, I'm finishing up a 40 part series on the life of Joseph Smith with, with non Mormon historian John Turner in his book Joseph Smith the Rise and Fall of an American Prophet. And if anyone understands Mormon church history, Joseph Smith sets the tone for the church sometimes publicly misleading people. And you know, a couple really prominent examples come to mind.

John Dehlin [00:27:47] We all know.

John Dehlin [00:27:47] And the church now admits that Joseph Smith was a serial polygamist, that he married over over 30 women, girls as young as 14 years old, mother, daughter pairs, sister pairs, over 10 women who were already married to other men when he married them.

John Dehlin [00:28:04] And Joseph Smith, Emma Smith, Hyrum Smith, multiple prophets or high level leaders of

John Dehlin [00:28:13] the church went on record in Nauvoo and afterwards denying that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy.

John Dehlin [00:28:21] Joseph Smith himself denied that he was practicing polygamy. He lied to his own wife, Emma. Joseph was about 20 to 22 wives into his polygamy before he ever admitted

John Dehlin [00:28:33] to his own wife that he was practicing polygamy.

John Dehlin [00:28:39] But he also told the Relief Society

John Dehlin [00:28:41] in the church and the church membership broadly that he was not practicing polygamy.

John Dehlin [00:28:47] And in the church's publications, the church

John Dehlin [00:28:50] and Joseph Smith denied that polygamy was being practiced.

John Dehlin [00:28:56] And so that's one example. And even for several years after Joseph

John Dehlin [00:29:02] Smith died, my understanding is the church continued in many ways to deny that it was practicing polygamy. So the Church has a history of lying publicly about things. I think that's factual. Another example of that is when women like Nancy Rigdon, who Joseph Smith propositioned,

John Dehlin [00:29:22] would decline Joseph Smith's advances and then tell the world that Joseph Smith propositioned them as polygamous wives. Joseph and or his associates would smear the women or the men that accused Joseph, that rightly accused Joseph of propositioning them for polygamy. Those women or men would be smeared as either prostitutes or as sluts or as harlots or as pimps or as having venereal diseases. And this is all a matter of public record. You can read about it in Joseph

John Dehlin [00:30:00] the Rise and Fall of an American Prophet by world class historian John Turner.

John Dehlin [00:30:05] And you know, another great example of the Mormon Church lying is when in 1890 it promised the world that it would stop practicing polygamy in its public manifesto. And for the next 10 to 20

John Dehlin [00:30:16] years it secretly kept practicing polygamy to

John Dehlin [00:30:20] the point where the Church needed to

John Dehlin [00:30:21] issue a second manifesto saying, okay, this time for real, we're going to stop.

John Dehlin [00:30:26] So when the church says something like the issue is not the podcast's viewpoint, I would say that you have to

John Dehlin [00:30:37] consider the church's track record in being honest.

John Dehlin [00:30:40] In fact, if the church had been

John Dehlin [00:30:43] had a history of being honest with

John Dehlin [00:30:45] its members and with the world, I would have never started Mormon Stories Podcast to begin with. In fact, Mormon Stories Podcast was created

John Dehlin [00:30:53] to counter the false information that the Church shared about its history and its truth claims and the way it harmed people.

John Dehlin [00:31:02] So there's that.

The Church's Decline and Motivations for the Suit

John Dehlin [00:32:07] But. But even if you take the church's. Take the church at its word, that the issue is not, you know, Mormon Stories podcast viewpoint, you know, I do think what it doesn't mention is whether

John Dehlin [00:32:20] or not the Church is concerned about the impact of Mormon Stories podcast.

John Dehlin [00:32:26] Because as far back as 2012, 2013, my memory serves me that the church issued an internal bubble chart report naming

John Dehlin [00:32:38] John Dehlin and Mormon Stories podcast as one of the top threats to the church.

John Dehlin [00:32:43] You know, just recently,

John Dehlin [00:32:47] for the first

John Dehlin [00:32:48] time, I believe in the history of the church in. It was just reported that over the past 12 months, the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is an actual membership decline in the United States. And that's with a slight increase in missionary baptisms over at least some previous years. But the declining birth rate, plus all the people leaving the church seems, you know, all the wards that have been closed, all the chapels that have been closed, all the stakes that have been closed, you Know, it seems like the. The Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints is in decline in the United states now in 2026, according to, you know, even faithful demographers in the church. And it's clear that in places like Western Europe and parts of developed Asia, Canada and other places, it seems like the church is in decline. And I believe that the church is in decline partly because of the Internet and because the dissemination of information and truthful history and, you know, discussions about the church's truth claims and, you know, a spotlight on the church's protection of child sex abusers at the expense of victims and the church's massive wealth and its financial fraud that, you know, was released as part of an SEC judgment, you know, all these sorts of things are causing the Church to be in decline.

Guest [00:34:37] And.

John Dehlin [00:34:37] And even though it may not be my intention to tear down the church

John Dehlin [00:34:41] or to get people to leave it

John Dehlin [00:34:43] or Mormon Stories Podcast's intention, you know, that's in effect, what's happening. And Mormon Stories has been one of the most effective places where factual history and truth claims and, you know, child abuse and financial fraud and deception has been discussed. And so I would say it's the church that's causing the Church to be in decline. But I think the Church is probably very concerned with Mormon Stories role in shining a spotlight on what the Church does and says and has done and has said. And so, you know, it's just obvious that an expensive, timely, costly lawsuit, especially if.

John Dehlin [00:35:40] If the narrative can be managed, that we didn't act in, that I didn't act in good faith, that I wasn't

John Dehlin [00:35:48] cooperative, you know, that my intentions are deceived, that if that type of harm

John Dehlin [00:35:57] to Mormon Stories Podcast and the Open Stories foundation, and to me personally, if

John Dehlin [00:36:01] that type of harm could be accomplished by a lawsuit, it's reasonable to suspect that that might be something the church, you know, wouldn't mind. So I don't know what their intention is. Who knows whether they do or don't

John Dehlin [00:36:18] have an issue with our viewpoint. I do think they have a concern with our effectiveness.

John Dehlin [00:36:24] We have over 800,000 subscribers now across all our various platforms.

John Dehlin [00:36:30] YouTube, we just crossed 300,000 subscribers. TikTok, I think we have over 300,000 subscribers, you know, and of course, Facebook and Instagram and elsewhere.

John Dehlin [00:36:42] So

John Dehlin [00:36:44] I just want to challenge that idea a little bit or at least question it.

John Dehlin [00:36:51] So going back to the Church's statement, they're saying that it's the use of the Church's protected names, images and design elements in ways that are causing confusion about whether the content is official or

John Dehlin [00:37:03] affiliated with the church.

John Dehlin [00:37:04] So this is what they're saying happened in 2025.

John Dehlin [00:37:09] According to the church, the church contacted

John Dehlin [00:37:11] the Open Stories foundation privately about concerns with its branding. The goal was to resolve the matter privately and amicably. The church then engaged in good faith mediation. So right there, what it doesn't say is that before mediation ever happened, that I engaged in good faith resolution to

John Dehlin [00:37:28] their concerns, asking that lawyers not be

John Dehlin [00:37:31] involved and that we could just talk it out.

John Dehlin [00:37:35] And they weren't willing to do that. They wanted to get lawyers involved immediately. So that's left out of the church's statement.

John Dehlin [00:37:43] But mediation did happen. So it says the church then engaged in good faith mediation and proposed several options to reduce confusion while minimizing disruption. When those efforts did not result in resolution, the church filed a complaint in

John Dehlin [00:37:59] federal court to protect its intellectual property.

The Branding and Trademark Dispute

John Dehlin [00:38:05] All right, so, you know, I could

John Dehlin [00:38:06] talk in a bit about, you know, what, what the church asked in mediation and why. I don't think what they asked in any sense could be described as reasonable or in good faith.

John Dehlin [00:38:23] So it says the church holds registered trademarks and copyrights so people can clearly identify what is and is not official. Church communication names, logos and visual design elements help people know when content represents the church. This case concerns branding choices that incorporate church protected names and design elements in ways that may lead people to believe the podcast is produced by or affiliated

John Dehlin [00:38:45] with the church when it's not.

John Dehlin [00:38:47] Well, let me just, you know, just say very, very, very concretely. As soon as I knew about and was able to, to change many of the design elements that they were concerned about. When I was able to change the rays, I got rid of the rays. When they were concerned about the Christus being shown in a couple places, I

John Dehlin [00:39:10] got rid of the Christus.

John Dehlin [00:39:11] When they didn't like the color of our logo, I changed the color. So why would there be a need for a lawsuit if I was changing

John Dehlin [00:39:22] everything that they were requesting, including updating thumbnails or any branding that included their copyrighted images to go on.

John Dehlin [00:39:33] Why was mediation unsuccessful?

John Dehlin [00:39:35] This, this for me is the most problematic part. The primary issue is ongoing confusion about whether Mormon Stories is affiliated with the church.

John Dehlin [00:39:44] I'll just say right, right off the top, we disagree that, that there is

John Dehlin [00:39:52] meaningful confusion about whether Mormon Stories is affiliated with the church, even with the branding redesign that was done a few years ago. If you look at the banner. So for example, for example, I'll pull up the YouTube banner just, just as one of several examples, what you'll see

John Dehlin [00:40:15] in the YouTube banner is that my, my picture, my face is front and center along with a bunch of people

John Dehlin [00:40:26] that I interviewed on Mormon Stories.

John Dehlin [00:40:28] So I just want the people who are accusing me or Mormon Stories Podcast as intentionally trying to confuse people. Why would I put my face somebody that the church in 2015 issued a press release naming as an apostate, someone who the Church has excommunicated as an apostate? Why would I put my face as the largest single image on my banners? So that's the banner on YouTube and that's been the banner since the redesign. And then if you look at the banner on our Facebook page, you'll find the very same thing. The biggest image on our Facebook banner is my picture, my picture. The picture of the someone who's noted and has been named out by the church publicly in a press release as the Church's number one enemy. So even if you want to cast question about our motives, I would ask you to consider why would I allow my face to be prevalent in all of our branding? If I wanted to fool and deceive

John Dehlin [00:42:04] people

John Dehlin [00:42:07] about whether or not the Church

John Dehlin [00:42:09] owns and controls Mormon Stories podcast, I

John Dehlin [00:42:13] would put a picture of Russell M. Nelson or Dallin H. Oaks or Joseph Smith on the banner. But I didn't. I put. We put my own picture. So that's one response that I have

John Dehlin [00:42:27] to people that want to claim that

John Dehlin [00:42:29] we're intentionally misleading people with our branding. The second reason that it never occurred to me that anyone would ever be confused about who runs and controls Mormon Stories Podcast is that we have the word Mormon in our name. When Russell M. Nelson, when the President and prophet of the Church publicly in General Conference denounces the usage of the word Mormon, the Mormon identity calls it a victory for Satan to the entire church. When mormon.org mormon.org is gutted and redirects to Church of Jesus Christ, when all of the assets that the Church owns are eliminated that include the word Mormon that I'm able to find. When the Mormon Tabernacle Choir, when the name Mormon is taken out of the name Mormon Tabernacle Choir, right? And in all reasonable interpretations, the trademark is abandoned and denounced. When the Church issues a media statement to tell the media, stop referring to our church as the Mormon Church, stop referring to our members as Mormons. And frankly, when thousands and thousands and thousands of Latter Day Saints reach out to me and say, john, stop calling us Mormons. We're Latter Day Saints using the term Mormon as a victory for Satan, stop Calling it the Mormon Church, using the term Mormon. The Mormon Church is a victory for Satan. When all of that happens over a multi year period, how in my mind would I ever think that keeping the name Mormon in my podcast, along with a huge photo of my face on the banners of our social media assets, how in my mind would I think ever that I was misleading people and fooling them into listening to Mormon Stories podcast? And I'm just telling you, I'm just telling you honestly, that thought, that possibility, I didn't. It never crossed my mind because I didn't even think it would be possible for my face, my name, the word Mormon to even invoke those concerns. But if, if that weren't enough, I just want anyone who's trying to be fair and reasonable. And before I do the next test,

John Dehlin [00:45:13] I'm just going to ask if you

John Dehlin [00:45:15] value this content and you want to see it continue, I want you to know that we have set up a legal defense fund. It's mormonstories.org legal. That is how you can support Mormon

John Dehlin [00:45:29] Stories and the Open Stories Foundation. I've already said this before.

John Dehlin [00:45:33] My understanding is that this lawsuit is likely to cost hundreds of thousands, if

John Dehlin [00:45:40] not millions of dollars, even under the best of circumstances.

John Dehlin [00:45:45] So with that being true, we could use your support. So if you want to financially support us, please go to mormonstories.org legal and

John Dehlin [00:45:55] you can donate once, you can donate monthly. It's tax deductible and we really could use your financial support to make this possible.

John Dehlin [00:46:07] So. Okay, the final test that I just want to ask you, anyone who wants to claim that I have intentionally been

John Dehlin [00:46:14] deceiving people about whether or not the LDS Church owns and controls Mormon Stories podcast.

Guest 2 [00:46:55] Bonjour, compadre.

Allegations of Deception and Bad Faith

John Dehlin [00:47:26] I just want you to go through

John Dehlin [00:47:29] a list of our episodes and I'll

John Dehlin [00:47:32] just do it right now. Read. Look at these thumbnails. Read these titles and tell me whether you think that any member, or even ex member or. Or never member could ever believe that we intended to deceive people or in fact created a reasonable misunderstanding about whether

John Dehlin [00:47:55] or not the LDS Church runs this podcast.

John Dehlin [00:47:58] How an Ex Christian Experiences Mormonism Traitor in the First Presidency

John Dehlin [00:48:05] Talking about Joseph

John Dehlin [00:48:06] Smith and, you know, Polygamy Graduated BYU and Resigned Immediately About a BYU student

John Dehlin [00:48:15] who leaves BYU and resigns.

John Dehlin [00:48:17] Joseph Smith introduces the second Anointing, the biggest anachronism in the Book of Mormon. Emma Goes to War with Joseph Smith

John Dehlin [00:48:26] over Polygamy Groomed for Mormon Motherhood Perfection

John Dehlin [00:48:31] How Mormon Moms Conquered Pop Culture Sham Marriages in Joseph Smith's Nauvoo Joseph Smith Pursues Teenage Girls in Nauvoo I would just for anybody that makes the argument that we have been intentionally trying to fool people or deceive people into listening to Mormon Stories podcast, I just don't think it's believable. Plus, I state my name at the beginning of every episode. Plus I tell everybody that we're sponsored by the Open Stories foundation in every episode. Plus, the about pages of all our assets have always included that we're operated by a nonprofit called the Open Stories

John Dehlin [00:49:18] foundation and you could donate to it.

John Dehlin [00:49:20] I just don't think it's reasonable, arguable,

John Dehlin [00:49:24] or credible to make those types of claims.

John Dehlin [00:49:27] And so it's hard to believe that the people who are making those claims

John Dehlin [00:49:31] are making them in good faith.

John Dehlin [00:49:35] So I'll go on. So they say in their press release

John Dehlin [00:49:39] the primary issue is ongoing confusion.

John Dehlin [00:49:41] So they say to address that, the church proposed a simple solution. Oh, a simple solution. One solution. A brief disclaimer that the podcast is not affiliated with or endorsed by the

John Dehlin [00:49:54] Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

John Dehlin [00:49:57] This is a common and straightforward way to help audiences understand the source of content.

Guest [00:50:03] So.

John Dehlin [00:50:04] And then they say that step was not adopted. So I want to say that there are two very, very important misstatements there. They come across to me as deceptions. They feel like lies to me, although I don't want to say what anyone's intention is, and I want to withhold judgment as to, you know, what the evidence ends up showing. But let me address the two. The first is That a this claim that a simple solution was proposed. A brief disclaimer that the podcast is

John Dehlin [00:50:39] not affiliated with the church.

Mediation Demands and Settlement Terms

John Dehlin [00:50:41] What I want to address is what they actually some of the things that they actually asked for in mediation or before mediation. And so I'm going to list some of the things that I recall them asking for. So I recall them asking for us to remove the name Mormon from our name. They seem to pivot from that later, but they asked for that. I remember them asking for us to take the word Mormon out of our Internet domains and our social media handles, or at least saying that that was what they intended to ask for. When we got into mediation, they ended up asking for a list of what we felt were outrageous and unreasonable requests. Some of them included asking me to literally agree to never initiate any project ever again on the Internet that used the word Mormon. So if I wanted to create a Mormon news podcast or a, you know, Mormon pop culture podcast, I had to sign an agreement that I would never, ever again create any project on the

John Dehlin [00:51:58] Internet that used the word Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:52:00] Okay, My memory is that they asked us to renounce any rights to trademarks for Mormon Stories, Mormon Stories Podcast, and to never file for trademarks. So they wanted us to promise we would never, ever attempt to trademark our names and to renounce our rights to any trademarks. And my memory is that they wanted us to promise to never challenge any of their trademarks, even if we felt like their trademarks were inappropriate. That was asked of us. My memory is that they asked us to agree that they own all the rights to the word Mormon and to

John Dehlin [00:52:40] its usages,

John Dehlin [00:52:43] which in effect, would be renouncing our own rights. They asked us to change not just the color of our logo. They asked us to remove rays from our logo. We've been using Raise on our logo for at least 10 or 15 years. And just to kind of show you that so that you understand, here is the Mormon Stories logo with rays. We have been using Raise for a long, long time. And I believe that we've been using

John Dehlin [00:53:12] Raise longer in our branding than than they have.

John Dehlin [00:53:17] That's my memory. That's my understanding. But they asked us to agree to never use Raise when we were using them first. And then they asked us in mediation to change the words on our logo and to change the name that we put on our logo. So if we were not going to agree to what they wanted, which was to take the word Mormon out of our logo, they wanted us to change the name on our logo to Ex Mormon stories podcast with Dr. John Dehlin or post Mormon stories podcast with Dr. John Dehlin. And they went as far as to tell us that the font, the font size for all the words in that renaming had to be the same. So it couldn't be Dr. John de Lin in small font size. You know, it couldn't be post or, you know, X in small word size. All these words had to be in the same font size. Ex Mormon Stories with Dr. John Dehlin. Imagine, imagine a, a logo with 8 or 10 or 15 words on it. It destroys the value, I believe, of the logo, not to mention the esthetic and the recognition and the appeal. So that's what was asked of us, to change the name of the podcast and to create a logo that would be destructive to our brand identity. And that was misdescribing what our podcast is all about. We're not Ex Mormon Stories, the stories. We have faithful Mormons, we have non believing but still attending Mormons, we have inactive Mormons, we have, you know, all sorts of Mormons. And so they, they were wanting us to change our name, damage our brand and damage our logo. You know, we were fine taking the Christus out if they felt like that was a problem. We were fine removing copyrighted images and we did. But, but when they write in their press release that the, the solution that they requested was simple, a brief disclaimer, they are grossly, in my opinion, misstating and understating what their actual asks of us were. And I, you know, I don't know their intention, but what the results of that misleading statement. And I have the receipts to, to back up everything I'm saying right now. So if and when the time comes, I will share it. But the end result of them putting out a press release claiming that this was their, quote, simple solution to just put up a disclaimer is to make me look unreasonable, to make me look like it's my intent to deceive and that I want people to confuse, to be confused. And that if, hey, if I had just added a simple disclaimer that they asked for, then everything would have gone away. But they, in my opinion, are misleading the world about what they actually asked for. So that's the first, what I think is a gross misleading and I would say deceptive representation. The second part of that is when they say that's that step was not adopted. So they're saying that all they asked for is a brief disclaimer, but that that step was not adopted. That for me is, is an outrageous, egregious, deceptive and unreasonable claim. So let me just show you the receipts. If you go to our YouTube channel, what you'll see is that we adopted at the. We adopted in our description their request for the disclaimer. It's, it's right there in, in the disclaimer. Mormon Stories is not affiliated with, endorsed or sponsored by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. It's there in YouTube. If you go to our Facebook page, it's there, right there, visible to everyone right there on the Facebook page. Mormon Stories is brought to you by the Open Stories foundation and is not affiliated with, endorsed or sponsored by the

John Dehlin [00:58:19] Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

John Dehlin [00:58:21] And if you go to the bottom of our blog, on every page of our blog, you can see that we added the disclaimer, mormon Stories is not affiliated with, endorsed or sponsored by the

John Dehlin [00:58:33] Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

John Dehlin [00:58:36] So we, and there's other places where we incorporated that disclaimer. But that's not what they wrote in their press release. They wrote the dishonest, I believe I feel statement that this resolution was not adopted. But, but, but it's actually more complicated than that. My memory is, is that they also wanted us to not only provide an audible disclaimer at the beginning of every Mormon Stories episode from now until the end of time, at the beginning of every episode, I believe my memory is, is that they also wanted it to be repeated multiple times in each episode where I would take breaks regularly throughout

John Dehlin [00:59:32] the episode and again provide the long, awkward disclaimer.

John Dehlin [00:59:39] And so I just think that their

John Dehlin [00:59:40] statement was incredibly deceptive and harmful.

John Dehlin [00:59:44] And what I've seen it result in

John Dehlin [00:59:46] is hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of

John Dehlin [00:59:49] faithful Mormons accusing me of not acting in good faith, of not accepting a really reasonable offer. And it's clear that I have the intent to deceive and fool people because I wouldn't even adopt a disclaimer that was very reasonable to adopt, which I did adopt. So that's the main concern that I

John Dehlin [01:00:12] have with their, their public statement.

John Dehlin [01:00:15] So we have put together a statement that, you know, we've wanted to try to start providing to media to address

John Dehlin [01:00:28] some of the concerns.

John Dehlin [01:00:29] And I want to let you all know that will provide a link to this statement in the description of this episode for people to consult with it. But, but what I would do is like, I would like to read from it now, but also let you know that in the description of this episode and on our blog and elsewhere, we're

John Dehlin [01:00:55] going to be linking to this statement so that people can refer to it.

John Dehlin [01:01:00] Here's the statement. So you know what I'd like to do is just read a few of what we've said. So on trademark infringement, we disagree that

John Dehlin [01:01:14] there is any trademark infringement.

John Dehlin [01:01:16] I've been using the Mormon Stories name for my podcast for more than 20 years without any objection from the church. Plus, the church has taken great efforts to distance itself from usage of the Mormon name in prophetic statements, its media guide, its own SEO and marketing. In fact, over the past several years, I've been constantly reminded by the LDS Church members that any usage of the

John Dehlin [01:01:38] word Mormon is a victory for Satan.

John Dehlin [01:01:41] So that's our response to their claim of trademark infringement. On our willingness to cooperate, I'll summarize. Immediately after the Church raised concerns, we voluntarily made changes to accommodate them, despite our disagreement with their position. Among other things, we changed the color and style of our logo, removed three years worth of images from our homepages and thumbnails, altered the description of the podcast, and added the Church's preferred disclaimer language to the podcast description on every platform. The lawsuit came as a surprise given how cooperative we have been.

John Dehlin [01:02:19] We have been cooperative at every turn

John Dehlin [01:02:21] on the Church's misleading and damaging public statements and coordinated media campaign. In the Church's public statement and in its coordinated media campaign with Jasmine Rapalai and many others, the Church claimed, quote, the Church proposed a simple solution, a brief disclaimer that the podcast is not affiliated with or endorsed by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. This is a common and straightforward way to help audiences understand the source of content. That step was not adopted. That's the Church's statement. Our response is that statement is false and damaging. And then we include in our statement the the descriptions of the podcast on Spotify, Apple and YouTube that clearly show that the Church misled the public and

John Dehlin [01:03:10] its members about what we were willing to do.

John Dehlin [01:03:14] We weren't willing to read their disclaimer audibly every 10 or 15 minutes on the podcast. Guilty. But who does that? Is that a reasonable ask?

John Dehlin [01:03:24] We don't think so.

Media Coverage and Disinformation Concerns

John Dehlin [01:04:29] the next statement is a coordinated media disinformation and smear campaign question mark. It was somewhat disturbing to see that Jasmine Rapalai and others had already released statements and videos about the lawsuit literally before I even knew I was being sued. We were unable to even locate the lawsuit until we found the case number on Jasmine rapalai's already released YouTube video. Since then, I have been receiving and encountering violent and hateful messages from faithful Latter Day Saints who were given the false impression by the LDS Church's misleading media statement and their coordinated media campaign, including Jasmine Rapalai and others, that I was not willing to incorporate a disclaimer into my channels, that I was not cooperative in the mediation and that thus my intent must have been to deceive and I included an instance of the violent language where a faithful Latter Day Saint writes, delin did this on purpose and has been riding the coattails of the Church long enough. I hope he gets crushed like a cockroach, like the cockroach he is. So let me repeat that a faithful Latter Day Saint, because of the Church's press release, wrote on the Internet, I hope John de Lynn gets crushed like the cockroach he is. And that's just one example of the violent and hateful rhetoric that Latter Day Saints have been sharing on the Internet as a result of the Church's misleading statements. So what I'm gonna ask all of you is anytime you see comments from Latter Day Saints or from church YouTubers, from apologists, please screenshot those defamatory or incorrect or violent or hateful comments and email them to me@mormonstoriesmail.com and we are going to keep a long library list of all of the comments that are violent, that are harassing, that are defamatory, and we would request that all of you please help us in the collection of defamatory, violent, harassing and hateful messages from church apologists, from Latter Day Saints, from commenters. We really need your support on this. We can't have eyes and ears everywhere. There's forums that we are not members of. And so please, please, please, wherever you find hateful, violent, defamatory comments or video statements or audio statements, please record them, copy them if it's legal to do so, and share them with us@mormonstoriesmails.com on market confusion. We disagree with their allegations of confusion. Again, I've been operating the podcast under the Mormon Stories name For more than 20 any objection from the Church? My face, My name. The Open Stories Foundations associations with the podcast are in virtually every episode and on every webpage and a part of every podcast episode. If anyone scrolls through our thumbnails and titles, it is impossible, I believe, to believe that we are owned or sponsored

John Dehlin [01:08:00] by the LDS Church.

John Dehlin [01:08:01] Anyone who claims that, I don't think is operating in good faith on Copyright allegations Regarding the copyright allegations, the Church never objected to our use of images from General Conference or other images relevant to the opinions and commentary on our podcast before November December. I cannot find one instance of the Church ever objecting to how we use their copyrighted material. Why did they go years and years and years and not send us a cease and desist? And why have they allowed so many other creators to do the same? Despite that, in response to their recent requests, we agreed to remove the images they identified from our website channels and podcast thumbnails. At every stage, we have been cooperative and respectful to the Church's concerns, despite

John Dehlin [01:08:52] our disagreement with their claims.

John Dehlin [01:08:54] Our graphic designer has been asked to be extra careful that we never violate the Church's copyrights and and as soon as we are informed of any unintentional copyright violations or alleged violations, we replace

John Dehlin [01:09:08] the images as fast as we can.

John Dehlin [01:09:11] Finally, on the disclaimer issue, we have operated the podcast for more than two decades without any kind of disclaimer and without any meaningful confusion, especially with any confusion that the Church objected to or that apologists that we know of objected to. We didn't feel any disclaimer was required, but in the spirit of cooperation we adopted adopted one. In our podcast description, the Church wanted us to make the disclaimer more prominent. So it was essentially the primary thing anyone sees in our branding and I would say here in our podcast episodes, and we felt like that was unreasonable. We do not want our primary message to be about what we are not. We have operated for a very long time promoting who we are and what we are. We have voluntarily adopted changes and taking actions beyond what the Church could compel the via litigation in a good faith effort to cooperate. It appears our efforts were not good enough for the church. Again, we were surprised to see this

John Dehlin [01:10:13] lawsuit following our extensive cooperation.

John Dehlin [01:10:17] And then the last thing we have on the episode on that little white paper is instructions on how to donate to our legal fund, which I'm going to have to keep asking because my understanding is, is that this lawsuit stands to cost us at minimum, hundreds of thousands of dollars and potentially between 2 and $3 million. So if you are in the financial position to support us, you can go to mormonstories.org legal and donate. Donations are tax deductible. My understanding is they're confidential and and we will do our best to be transparent in our finances. I am willing to commit that the donations will go towards legal expenses. And if at the end of the day, more donations than legal expenses, I will refund any donor that wants their

John Dehlin [01:11:10] money back, as long as it's not more than what our expenses were that we incurred.

John Dehlin [01:11:16] So those are the main things that I wanted to say in terms of our response to the church and its statement. I still haven't had a chance to read the actual lawsuit. There are a few final things that I do want to share today as we close. So I want to call you back, and this is important because I want to talk about the opportunity that we have as Mormon Stories podcast listeners, as Latter Day Saints. By the way, can I mention that I have had many faithful believing orthodox Latter Day Saints reach out to me to express how angry they are that in their opinion, the LDS Church is seeking to silence people's First Amendment rights believing Mormons. Many believing Mormons that I've communicated with are interpreting the church's actions as bullying the little guy, trying to silence its critics, trying to stifle free speech. And many believing Mormons have reached out to me, claiming that it's their perception that the Church is trying to use their vast wealth, their money and their power to bankrupt the Open Stories foundation, to drain our resources, to take us off our mission and to harm us, and most importantly, to silence us and to silence free speech. So it's not just listeners and viewers and never Mormons. It's active believing Mormons that are interpreting it this way, especially when they see how deceptive it appears the LDS Church has been in its public statements. And, you know, we plan on sharing the receipts to show how deceptive we feel like their statements have been. So anyway, what I want to talk to you all about really, really quickly as we close, is what the opportunity here is, because while we don't want to be sued, while we don't want to waste our time doing this, while we don't want to have to spend donations on legal issues, while all we want to do is create great content to support informed consent and faith transitions and to help improve the church. Here's what the opportunity is or here's what the possible outcome is from this lawsuit. And I just want you to think about this as you consider whether you want to support us. And there are various ways you can support us, but here's the opportunity again, the number one, do you call this how we're going to make lemonade from the lemons, how we're going to, you know, turn this bad thing into something good? If you remember, our first goal at

Core Mission of Informed Consent

John Dehlin [01:14:11] the Open Stories foundation and Mormon Stories is informed consent.

John Dehlin [01:14:14] We want there to be transparency for Latter Day Saints and for Mormons and for the rest of the world. This lawsuit is going to bring more viewers, more listeners and more awareness to Mormon Stories Podcast and separate from whatever light gets shone on the church and what information gets revealed about the lawsuit and the church's tactics and its misinformation. Number one, the opportunity or the lemonade from this lemon is that it's going to help more people learn about Mormon Stories Podcast and gain more information. So in that light, I want everyone to know that we did an amazing series on Mormon stories podcast called LDS Discussions, where for like 60 plus episodes we examine LDS Church truth claims from as objective as a position as we can. Check that out. I just am finishing a 40 part series on the life of Joseph Smith called the Joseph Smith Podcast with John Turner. Check that out. We've interviewed many former bishops and many former victims of child sexual abuse and we've covered child sexual abuse. If you're new to these issues, check that out because you'll learn more about your church or about the church. We talk about the second anointing on Mormon Stories Podcast, the super secret ordinance that primarily wealthy, connected Mormons get to receive. You know, where they're promised that unless they kill someone, they're going straight to Celestial Kingdom. Check that out. If you're new to Mormon Stories Podcast because of this lawsuit, we invite you to check out our catalog. We are not trying to take the church down, but we are trying to give you truthful, factual information to help

John Dehlin [01:16:12] you make informed decisions.

John Dehlin [01:16:14] The second way that this, that this lawsuit, this, you know, could be helpful, is that it is going to shine transparency on how the church uses the legal system and attorneys to pressure people who aren't in power, to pressure people who don't have as much money to pressure victims of sexual abuse to silence victims. What potentially we all might be able to witness from this is in slow motion with the full spotlight. How the church uses the legal system and its money and its power to silence and intimidate and hurt and bankrupt people. And that goes to our mission of

John Dehlin [01:16:58] informed consent and transparency.

John Dehlin [01:17:00] So that is not what we want. But that is a natural outgrowth and that's why you may consider supporting us in this effort. And there are a few other ways, important ways, that we are going to need your help. The second thing that's going to happen is certainly the church is going to be accelerating the number of people who question the church, lose their faith in the church and or leave the church. Just like Prop 8 caused people to leave the church in Mass. Just like the November 2015 policy implemented by Russell M. Nelson and Dallin H. Oaks caused people to leave the church in droves. Just like the reversal of the November 2015 policy caused people to leave the church in droves. Just like the Gospel Topics essays have caused people to leave the church in droves. Just like the church's racism and sexism and homophobia have caused the church to leave in droves. Just like the church's excommunication of Sam Young who protected children of Natasha Halpert Parker that advocated for ethical mental health practices, Bill Real and Jeremy Runnels and Grant Palmer who advocated for transparency in the church and the September 6 and D. Michael Quinn and so many Yvonne Brody, you know, so many heroes that tried to help improve the church or promote transparency and honesty and historical truth in the church. Just like all those excommunications caused people to leave the church in droves, this lawsuit is likely going to cause people to start questioning and doubting their church and to consider leaving it in droves, it is likely going to accelerate the very problem the Church claims to be trying to solve. And so ironically, the world is going to need Mormon Stories Podcast more during and after this lawsuit than it ever did before. So that's another reason to support this lawsuit and to support Mormon Stories podcast. Because if you're thinking about people leaving the Mormon church, it's possible that you ain't seen nothing yet as a result of this lawsuit. So that's the second reason to support us. And the third thing that you could get from this lawsuit, the lemonade that this lawsuit might make, is that we are going to help improve the church. Because to the extent to which the church bullies and manipulates and silences people. To the extent to which the church uses its wealth and its power to lie and hide and deceive and coerce and punish and bankrupt people who are telling the truth and trying to help the church get better, the church will likely hopefully learn from its mistakes and maybe do that less in the future. And maybe there'll be less child sexual abuse coverups by the Church's law firms in the future. Maybe less perpetrators like Wade Christofferson will be protected at the expense of the victims. So it's not an accident that two of the three members of the First Presidency are attorneys. And it's not an accident that the most prevalent occupation of the quorum of

John Dehlin [01:20:23] the 12 or the quorum of the 15 is attorneys.

John Dehlin [01:20:25] It's not an accident that the churches leaders of their historical department are historians or attorneys. Sorry. So it's not an accident that the Church's lead historians are attorneys because the Church uses the law system to silence and punish and coerce and hide sometimes the harm that it causes. That's what I believe. That's sometimes what I witness. And again, it's no. It's no accident at all that the

John Dehlin [01:21:00] current president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is an attorney.

John Dehlin [01:21:05] And I don't think it doesn't seem to be a coincidence that we're being

John Dehlin [01:21:09] served this lawsuit under the administration of a president and prophet of the Church who is an attorney.

How to Support Mormon Stories Going Forward

John Dehlin [01:22:21] Again, I'll just end by saying there's various ways you can help. You can donate to mormonstories.org legal please donate and support us. If you're an attorney and you know a lot about trademark or copyright. We are putting together a team of attorneys to respond to the likely army and legion of attorneys that the Church is, has, or will be assembling. So email me@mormonstoriesmail.com if you are an attorney who is willing to work pro bono for this lawsuit and we will add you to our team. Even if you've already reached out to me already about this lawsuit, please reach out to me again because I want to make sure your name and your qualifications get passed on. If you're an attorney and you want to work on this case, please include

John Dehlin [01:23:19] your background and experience in trademark and

John Dehlin [01:23:21] copyright and whatever else can help us know that you're available and helpful in

John Dehlin [01:23:27] this type of case.

John Dehlin [01:23:28] Again, anytime any of you witness violent comments, false comments, defamatory comments, harmful comments, malicious comments by Latter Day Saints, by faithful Latter Day Saints, by apologists, or video episodes or audio episodes, you know, anywhere in forums, please screenshot the harmful comments, the defamatory or violent comments, and share them with us. Please download the video, the TikTok, the Instagram before it gets deleted, screenshot stuff, and send it to us and we will use it to help, you know, with our situation. We think that that could be really helpful. Yeah. And then just like and comment on our episode. Share it. Please be our informers. So whether it's on the Deseret News articles or the Salt Lake Tribune articles or in the comments of YouTube episodes by apologists or Facebook or Instagram or TikTok episodes, please share the truth. Please inform members about what's really going on. Please talk to your family and friends, refer them to this episode, refer them to the link of the statement in the description. I'm sure we'll be expanding on that statement. We'll probably provide our own Frequently Asked Questions document. And I also plan on doing more episodes, hopefully with Colby Reddish, hopefully with Radio Free Mormon, hopefully with others. I plan on doing more commentary analysis. So, you know, please stay tuned for that. And then I also just want to say, you know, Bill Real, Radio Free Mormon and Rebecca Biblioteca of Mormonish and many other, you know, Nemo the Mormon and Alyssa Grenfell and others, many of them are supportive of what we're doing and are going to be talking about this lawsuit and the situation. And some of them are going to be doing content, I'm sure, based on their analysis and their review of the documents. So check out, I think right now in, in, in 10 or 15, maybe 30 minutes, Mormonism live or Radio Free Mormon are going to be talking about the Lawsuit and others. And so, you know, please check out their content as well. Please support them. And again, please follow and check out what we're doing. I just want to say, when I say we, you know, the main people that I'm talking about when I say we on Mormon Stories podcast, the first person I mean when I say we today, when I say we is Margi, my wife. I apologize to Margi that sometimes I get so animated that I forgot. I forget to mention her by name. She is my co host. She is my best friend. She is operations manager for the Open Stories Foundation. She has supported and guided me throughout all of what I've done for the past 21 years. And she is supportive of me in this and she is with me every step of the way. And so when I say we throughout all this episode, the first person I mean is my dear wife, Margi. Margi, I love you. I'm grateful for you.

John Dehlin [01:27:09] I couldn't do this without you.

John Dehlin [01:27:11] You are wise and thoughtful and strong. You are an asset to this organization

John Dehlin [01:27:16] and I'm so grateful to have you at my side. So I love you. Thanks for your support in this. I love you.

John Dehlin [01:27:23] When I say we, I also mean my board of directors, Clint Martin, and you know, his wife Jenny. Our other board member, Jennifer Tomczyk. I mean members of our staff, Julia and Brooklyn. I mean Mormon Stories donors in the Open Stories community. Those are the main we's and all the people who have ever told their stories on Mormon Stories podcast or supported us in all the different ways, past staff members included. Those are the we that. That I mean first and foremost in today's episode and going forward and in the future. Yeah. So I just wanted to make sure and, and state that and thank everyone who's made this possible so far. And then, and then finally, I just want to say that just heartfelt heart to heart. Hosting Mormon Stories podcast and leading Mormon Stories Podcast has been the honor of my professional life. It's been one of the greatest honors to help support people in faith crisis, provide people with information, help people wake up from feeling and being deceived, help them take control of their lives, whether they stay in or out of the church. I've never cared.

John Dehlin [01:28:38] I've never had a desire to take

John Dehlin [01:28:41] people out of the church or to keep them in. I just want people to be able

John Dehlin [01:28:45] to make educated, informed decisions.

John Dehlin [01:28:48] So to that extent, running Mormon Stories Podcast has been the honor of our life and my life professionally. Obviously, being a husband and a father

John Dehlin [01:29:00] has been the great honor of my

John Dehlin [01:29:02] life and I also have to throw

John Dehlin [01:29:04] a thank you to my children and extended family for all they've done to

John Dehlin [01:29:08] support me because they are my main why in life. And they have experienced pain and discomfort because of everything that we've experienced over

John Dehlin [01:29:20] the past 21 years. And so I want to send out love and gratitude to my children, my parents, my siblings, and my extended family as well. Thank you for enduring that.

John Dehlin [01:29:33] So that's my personal why my professional why is this? And it's been a great honor to host and lead Mormon Stories Podcast in

John Dehlin [01:29:42] the Open Stories Foundation.

John Dehlin [01:29:43] I will say, cross my heart, Scout's honor, armed to the square. I have never intended to intentionally deceive people that we are a podcast run or sponsored by the church. And even more, I've never intended Mormon Stories Podcast to hurt the church or take people out of the church. I've only desired to give people informed consent to support people in their faith

John Dehlin [01:30:12] transitions and to try and make the church better.

John Dehlin [01:30:14] And I'll go to the grave feeling

John Dehlin [01:30:17] clear in my conscience that those have been my intentions.

John Dehlin [01:30:20] If this lawsuit bankrupts Mormon Stories Podcast, if this podcast makes it so, I

John Dehlin [01:30:26] have to take Mormon Stories down.

John Dehlin [01:30:28] If this podcast, they're coming after me personally. They've named me personally and my family in extension by naming me personally in the lawsuit. And obviously the church could sneeze and

Closing Thoughts and Call to Action

John Dehlin [01:30:46] bankrupt the Open Stories Foundation.

John Dehlin [01:30:48] So if it is that, my family gets bankrupt. If it is that Open Stories foundation is bankrupted. If it is that, I have to

John Dehlin [01:30:57] stop doing this and take it down.

John Dehlin [01:31:02] You know, I feel like standing up for truth, standing up for honesty, standing up for informed consent, standing up for transparency, standing up for the marginalized and the abused, standing up for the way the church harms people, but also standing up for trying as a fellow Mormon, culturally to help improve the church. I feel that's the type of stuff that the church taught me to be and to do. The Mormon Church taught me, do what

John Dehlin [01:31:35] is right, let the consequence follow.

John Dehlin [01:31:37] The LDS Church taught me, oh, say what is truth?

John Dehlin [01:31:41] Tis the fairest gem.

John Dehlin [01:31:43] So everything that I've done, I will go to my grave knowing and believing and feeling like was coming out of my Mormon upbringing and with a desire to not only benefit and bless the Mormon people, but also the LDS Church and the greater humanity. And, you know, we could have settled, we could have signed a harsh and unreasonable mediation agreement with a gun to our head, but we just decided that that would be a sacrifice of our ethics and of our values and of our mission and of our responsibility to You. And so we're rolling the dice. We feel like we're on very firm ground legally. We feel like we're on very good solid ground morally and ethically. Financially. You know, we, you know, we could be swamped very easily by the church in terms of the church's power and influence in the legal system. We could be swamped and buried potentially very easily. But again, the church taught me to have courage and the Church taught me

John Dehlin [01:33:04] to do what is right, regardless of consequence.

John Dehlin [01:33:07] The church taught me to stand up for truth, to stand up for the marginalized, and to stand up for the Mormon people. And that's what we, meaning Margi and Clint and Jenny and the board and the staff and the donors. That's why we're fighting this lawsuit. So I want to invite you all to support us if you feel like it. You can donate to mormonstories.org legal if you want to support it. And again, all the other ways, I also want to, you know, just say thanks again for supporting us in all the ways. I want to thank all the other channels, Radio Free Mormon, Mormonism Live, Colby Nemo, the Mormon, Alyssa Grenfell, Mormonish, all the other TikTok and Instagram channels that

John Dehlin [01:33:55] I don't have time to mention.

John Dehlin [01:33:56] I want to just thank everybody who've reached out to support viewers and listeners and friends. Former staff. Maven Even is here moderating our comments today.

John Dehlin [01:34:06] Shout out to Maven. I want to thank everyone who has

John Dehlin [01:34:11] reached out with their heartfelt support. Let's do this. It's a crazy thing to. To stand up to the LDS Church with its 3, 4, $500 billion in assets and all its power and wealth. It might seem like a crazy thing to stand up to them and to fight for honesty and truth and transparency and to fight against harm and misperceptions and misinformation, but I think it's the right thing to do. So that's what we're doing. This is a transparency report. I hope you've enjoyed it. I really hope you can support us if you can. And if you can't, that's okay. We'll keep doing what we do for as long as we can, and we'll see how it all ends. But regardless, this has been the professional honor of my life to do Mormon stories, and I'll keep doing it until

John Dehlin [01:35:07] we're forced to stop, either legally or financially.

John Dehlin [01:35:11] So, love you all. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. Do what is right. Let the consequence follow. Thanks again for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Again, it's MormonStories.org legal to donate. The links are in the description. Our statements to the media are also linked to in the description. We'll be updating them over time. Your super chats here are useful. Donations here are welcome and welcome as well. I really apologize I wasn't able to give shout outs to all the donors for today. I hope you can understand.

John Dehlin [01:35:47] I was too busy trying to say everything right and correctly and I didn't have time to call out all the super chats. But they're very much appreciated. Be good to each other.

John Dehlin [01:35:59] Be kind to each other.

John Dehlin [01:36:00] We'll keep you updated in the days, weeks and months ahead and we'll see

John Dehlin [01:36:05] you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast brought to you by Dr. John Dehlin of the Open Stories foundation and not by any other entity. Love you all. Take care everybody.

John Dehlin [01:36:20] We'll see you again soon on Mormon Stories Podcast.