Introduction and Episode Overview

John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It's July 24, 2023, Pioneer Day in Utah, and today we are going to be talking about what I think is a really interesting Mormon story. What happens when you are an adolescent and young adult who loves math and you're kind of into math competitions. You're raised a devout Mormon, and as you start advancing into high school, you end up being faced with the choice, do I serve a Mormon mission or do I go to mit? The Massachusetts Institute of Technology. Not that it's always a zero sum game. Some people do both. But that's going to be kind of the teaser for today's interview. We're going to be interviewing James Camacho. Is that how you pronounce it? James?

James Camacho [00:00:49] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:00:50] And James is not to give it away, but he's currently at mit. Is that right?

James Camacho [00:00:55] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:00:56] So I guess we'll find out whether we served a mission or not. But I was particularly interested in this story because I worked for MIT for several years as a part of the OpenCourseWare consortium. And yeah, MIT obviously is one of the world's most well known and well respected science, technology and engineering universities. So, James, I'm super excited to have you on MORM Stories today.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:26] Thanks.

John Dehlin [00:01:26] Thanks for joining us. And also joining us in studio is my brilliant and wise partner in truth and righteousness, Margi. Hey, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:37] Hi.

John Dehlin [00:01:38] Thanks for joining us.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:39] So happy to be here.

John Dehlin [00:01:40] Yeah, happy Pioneer Day. Thanks so much for all the different types of pioneers.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:45] That's right. All the different pioneering going on in the world right now.

John Dehlin [00:01:48] Yeah. All right, so. So let's just dive right in. James, are there any disclaimers you want to first provide about why you wanted to do this interview? Kind of what your intentions are or are not?

James Camacho [00:02:03] No, I don't really think I have a disclaimer. Okay. Yeah, maybe part of why I wanted to do it is I felt very alone. Growing up, I had a twin brother who was similarly into math and stuff other than him, like, none of my peers really cared about math. And then when I began questioning the stuff as I grew up, like, I didn't have anyone else to talk to because I was used to talking, like, with a lot more rigor, but, like, I could only talk to my brother. So.

John Dehlin [00:02:37] Yeah. So you want other people to be able to have stories they can learn from and not feel so alone.

James Camacho [00:02:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:44] Nice. All right. And you're currently going to be entering your sophomore year at mit. Is that right?

James Camacho [00:02:50] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:02:51] What are you studying?

James Camacho [00:02:52] So right now I am planning on majoring in machine learning. So that's mainly just because I want to graduate as quick as possible. So I've taken already a bunch of math courses. So really, like, I know most of the math that I need to graduate. I just need to get like the credits and the classes done.

John Dehlin [00:03:12] Got it. Okay. So you want to do AI?

James Camacho [00:03:14] Basically, yeah. AI is decently interesting.

John Dehlin [00:03:18] Maybe we'll talk about AI a little bit.

Margi Dehlin [00:03:20] That wasn't a hard sell. Decently interesting.

James Camacho [00:03:24] Well, okay. It's like right now it's just such a soft science, so AI is. Yeah. And like the current research isn't that great, but that's my opinion.

Margi Dehlin [00:03:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:35] So you're going to fix that?

James Camacho [00:03:38] I don't know. Like,

John Dehlin [00:03:41] we'll see.

James Camacho [00:03:42] Yeah.

James Camacho's Mormon Story Begins

John Dehlin [00:03:43] All right, well, let's, let's dive in. Where does your Mormon story begin, James?

James Camacho [00:03:48] Let's see, like, were you born into the church? Yeah, I was born into the church.

John Dehlin [00:03:54] So tell us really quickly, like, what did your parents, Were they born into the church? Did they, where did they meet? Did they serve missions?

James Camacho [00:04:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:02] Did they get married in the temple, that sort of thing?

James Camacho [00:04:03] Yeah. So my mom is like seventh generation Mormon. My dad is like, I don't know what generation. I know my grandpa was really active, but I don't think his dad was. So probably like third. Let's see. So they both went to byu. That's where they met. That's where they got married. They got married in the Provo Temple. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:31] And do you want to talk about kind of either their professions?

James Camacho [00:04:36] Oh, yeah. So, okay. My mom had children pretty young. I think like 22 or 23 was her first child. So she's just been a stay at home mom for basically my whole life actually. No, for my whole life. My dad got a PhD in physics, so that was like for first five years of life. What?

John Dehlin [00:04:58] Where'd he go?

James Camacho [00:04:59] University of Rochester.

John Dehlin [00:05:00] Okay. New York.

James Camacho [00:05:02] Yeah, New York. And then we moved around a bit for like postdoc and then like a job at, in New Mexico eventually when, right about as I was getting into my teen years, we moved to Provo and he worked at. Started working for BYU as a professor in electrical engineering.

John Dehlin [00:05:23] So Margi and I participated in what they call Barbenheimer this weekend where we saw Barbie and Oppenheimer. Were you in Los Alamos when you were in New Mexico?

James Camacho [00:05:32] No, we were in Albuquerque, like two or three hours north.

John Dehlin [00:05:36] Which university was. Was there.

James Camacho [00:05:39] So. So my dad was actually working for Santiago National Labs.

John Dehlin [00:05:43] Oh, okay.

James Camacho [00:05:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:44] So federal government stuff.

James Camacho [00:05:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:46] Okay. So your dad heavily into science and engineering?

James Camacho [00:05:50] Yep. So, like, he was teaching me math when I was, like, five, so I got a head start there.

John Dehlin [00:05:58] Okay.

James Camacho [00:05:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:59] How many kids did your parents have?

James Camacho [00:06:01] Let's see. So there's a total of five of us. I have one older brother, a twin brother, a younger brother, and then a little sister.

John Dehlin [00:06:09] Okay. And was your family kind of active and faithful in the church growing up?

James Camacho [00:06:16] Yeah, very active. Like, we'd go to church on vacations. See? Pretty orthodox. I know. So there's always, like, a couple families that I'd be like, well, they're a little more orthodox, but, like, there's, like, what, the same five families. We were probably one of them.

John Dehlin [00:06:35] What year were you born?

James Camacho [00:06:36] 2003.

John Dehlin [00:06:37] 2003. Mormon's story started in 2005. Wow. So you're young. That's awesome.

James Camacho [00:06:48] I think I'm. That makes me old if I'm older than Mormon stories.

John Dehlin [00:06:52] You're two years older than Mormon stories?

James Camacho [00:06:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:55] Wait, what are you saying there? If that makes you old, that makes us really old. Well, I'm just.

James Camacho [00:07:04] We don't need to start Mormon stories when you're pretty young.

John Dehlin [00:07:07] Maybe. Probably not. Okay, so, okay, so your early years were in New Mexico, is that right?

Growing Up in New Mexico and Moving to Utah

James Camacho [00:07:16] Yeah, probably. Like, my childhood growing up was New Mexico, and then, like, coming into age would be in Utah.

John Dehlin [00:07:24] Okay. Okay. So, you know, there are all the markers and milestones of kind of a young Mormon family growing up with five kids. Did you guys strive for those markers,

James Camacho [00:07:36] like baptism, all that?

John Dehlin [00:07:38] Family home meeting, prayer, Family prayer, scripture study, all that?

James Camacho [00:07:42] Let's see. Our parents were actually not so great at organizing family prayer and scripture reading, so we probably did scripture reading, like, 50% of the time.

John Dehlin [00:07:52] That's pretty good.

Margi Dehlin [00:07:52] That's pretty good.

John Dehlin [00:07:53] Yeah.

James Camacho [00:07:53] Okay, and then, let's see. Family home evening. I think we used to do it on Mondays, but then we started just doing it, like, after church because it was easier than getting everyone, like, as we were growing up, doing different activities. It's easier to get everyone together on Sunday.

John Dehlin [00:08:13] And did you guys attend church all. All the hours and.

James Camacho [00:08:17] All the hours, yeah. Yep.

John Dehlin [00:08:18] Yeah. Okay. Were there rules in your Mormon family home that kind of made you, as kids, different from your peers in terms of what you were and weren't allowed to do compared to your peers?

Chess, Math Competitions, and Family Culture

James Camacho [00:08:31] I mean, like, we couldn't hang out on Sundays.

John Dehlin [00:08:34] With friends.

James Camacho [00:08:35] Yeah. Like, with friends. With friends. Let's see. Obviously, like, word of wisdom. So, like, I remember Going to one friend's birthday party and they like iced tea. I'm like, oh, I can't drink that. But I didn't feel like there's a bunch of rules.

John Dehlin [00:08:54] What about R rated movies or swearing?

James Camacho [00:08:57] Well, I never really liked swearing to begin with.

John Dehlin [00:08:59] Okay.

James Camacho [00:08:59] So I didn't really care about that. And yeah, no R rated movies, but like, oh, actually also no PG13 movies. Up until we were like 16, we had to go ask our parents, like, are we allowed to watch this movie? So. Okay. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:20] And so I'm curious if, is your mom math and science oriented, stem oriented, or.

James Camacho [00:09:27] I think she's kind of. I don't, I don't think, I think like her family in general is math stem oriented, but, like, I don't think she's super into it.

John Dehlin [00:09:43] Okay. I'm curious how and if kind of a science mentality, at least on your dad's part, jived with your Mormonism growing up. Did it ever. Was there ever any tension there, at least in those childhood years between. Because some say science and religion sometimes are like oil and water a little bit. Was there ever any of that?

James Camacho [00:10:08] Not really. Let's see, like in my younger years, Mormonism wasn't a huge role in my life. So like, we didn't talk about it a ton outside of Sunday. I mean, as I grew older, obviously he, he wanted like to talk about more, get more into like the deep doctrine, read commentaries on Bible verses. But this was like later teen years. Okay, so not like young childhood. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:10:46] When you remember kind of growing up as a, let's just say a younger boy. So this would be in Albuquerque. Like, what do you remember about yourself? Like you. Did you love math? Then, like, what did you, what do you remember about you as a boy? What you like to do, what your days were like, how you felt.

James Camacho [00:11:05] Yeah, let's see. So actually very early childhood, I was actually a chess kid. So I would play chess with my twin brother. So we started in kindergarten and we just played a bunch against each other because we were the same level like that that's the best way to improve, so. Well, maybe it's not. Maybe you also have to solve tactics. But I quit when I was like third grade because we had to wake up a little early to go to chess club.

James Camacho [00:11:34] But so that was like very young years. So. And then in like third grade, I started doing math and I was definitely a math kid. So like, I remember in fifth grade we would actually go to, we, we would leave our elementary school to go to local middle school. And, like, to take algebra there. So definitely a lot of time spent on math. And then that's also, like, when I started getting into math competitions. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:10] So math competitions. Talk about that.

James Camacho [00:12:15] Okay, well, there's a lot to talk about that. Mostly middle school. So let's see. So in fourth and fifth grade, there's this thing called Math Olympiads for elementary and middle schoolers. So I did that in fourth and fifth grade. I didn't really care, though, about math competitions back then. It's just like, we just did it in class once a week. I'm like, so I cared enough. I wanted to solve all the problems, but that was about it. So I was like. But then in middle school, there's this national competition called Math Counts, which is a lot bigger, a lot more important, and I really wanted to do well on this. So my brother and I were pretty competitive with chess. And then it became math.

John Dehlin [00:13:06] Your twin brother or your older brother?

James Camacho [00:13:07] My twin brother. So basically I wanted to do at least as well as he did. So in sixth grade, we had an hour off in school where we just did our own math thing because our school only had algebra. We'd already taken that.

James Camacho [00:13:27] So we both just spent the hour studying for math counts. So we would do a bunch of practice problems, and I learned a bunch of math in that time, so that was really good. Anyways, though, apparently my brother wanted to win state. I didn't know this until a week before the state competition, but mathcast has a bunch of different competitions. So there's first the school round where it's just against your school, and then the top 10 from there go to the chapter round.

James Camacho [00:14:01] It depends on the chapter. In New Mexico, about the top 50% from each chapter go on to state, but that's just because New Mexico is a really small state. So anyways, in the school round, Joseph beat me by a little bit, which is a little sad, but. Oh, well, same for chapter round. But in the chapter round, Joseph ended up getting first.

James Camacho [00:14:24] So that's super impressive. As a sixth grader, you're competing against older kids. Yeah, yeah. So sixth, seventh, and eighth grade competing. Yeah, yeah. So also our chapter was like, the hardest chapter in the state, so that means he was probably first in the state. So I ended up getting fourth, which I was, like, super happy about until I learned he got first.

John Dehlin [00:14:48] But what types of questions or problems is it just like, here's a piece of paper with problems.

James Camacho [00:14:53] Okay, great.

John Dehlin [00:14:54] You can fix who can complete them fastest and get them right.

James Camacho [00:14:59] So it's a Timed test. So it's like you have 30 problems in 40 minutes. That's called the sprint round, because you only have 80 seconds per question. Then there's also the target round, which is you have three minutes per problem, so you get a little longer. What kinds of questions? It's supposed to be middle school math, which means only algebra, geometry, whatever. But in truth, you actually have to use roots of unity filters and lots of other stuff,

Margi Dehlin [00:15:29] right?

James Camacho [00:15:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:31] Roots of unity filters, right.

James Camacho [00:15:34] Do you want me to explain that? Sure. Okay, so if you have a polynomial, a 0 plus a 1, x plus a 2, x squared or a 0, whatever, a 1 are just some coefficients, you can use these roots of unity to filter out all, all the powers of x except x to the fifth. So a fifth root of unity is a complex number, so that z to the fifth would equal one. Obviously one is a root of unity. But you can also have cosine of PI over five. Sorry, 2 PI over five plus I sine 2 PI over five. And that's like also if you put that to the fifth power is equal to 1. So anyways, if you add like f of 1 plus f of z plus f of z squared plus da da da plus f of z to the fourth, everything will cancel out except the powers of five.

John Dehlin [00:16:35] Nice.

Margi Dehlin [00:16:36] Can I ask you a question about your brain and math in particular? Like, do you remember? Well, I guess it could be. Not even when you were young, but how would you describe your brain's relationship to, like, math? Is it like a language that you learn? Did it feel familiar to you? Did it feel like kind of, or did it feel sort of like a puzzle that you're given sort of some tools to figure out and then you, like, how would you describe how your brain related to math?

James Camacho [00:17:09] Okay, so I think actually I'm not naturally as good at math as other subjects. It's just it ended up being the one that I had to work hardest on. But I think when it comes to the competition problems, it's like a puzzle. Because usually competition problems have relatively quick solutions. But the hard part is finding the way to get there when it comes to the rest of math, learning it. I tried to think of it as like whatever math exists, it made sense to somebody at some point. So I just need to figure out from first principle from first principles, how did they get there? So like with the roots of unity filter, you start out with, you want it to cancel if it's like, actually, I'm not even going to talk about that. So that's What I try to do. I try to, like, say, okay, how does this make sense?

Margi Dehlin [00:18:07] Got it. Yeah, that makes sense. Are you done? Can I ask a quick question? Going off on a. And if you don't want to talk about this, this is absolutely great. I was curious just how you would describe your experience having a twin growing up.

Being a Twin and Early Math Identity

James Camacho [00:18:27] So I don't have experience not having a twin.

John Dehlin [00:18:29] So is that a fraternal or a maternal twin?

James Camacho [00:18:33] Nocturnal.

John Dehlin [00:18:33] Okay.

James Camacho [00:18:34] Meaning identical.

Margi Dehlin [00:18:36] But I guess what I'm curious about is, like, did you experience being kind of grouped together, interchangeable, kind of those things? Did you experience it as, like, very mixed or really largely positive because you had this person in the world that, you know, kind of came into the world with you, like, just some of your. How you think about it.

James Camacho [00:19:02] So I think, like, up until 9th grade, I would say actually up until maybe even 11th grade, I would say, like, I perceived it as negative because all the time, people would ask me the dumbest twin questions, like, can you guys read each other's mind? It's just, like, maybe you only see twins, like, once a year, but I have to live with this every single day. It's so annoying. And then also, just, like, because we were twins, we were able to be so much more competitive, like, with my older and younger siblings. Like, like. Okay. Especially, like, younger siblings, they can't compete against you because you have years of experience ahead of them. So.

Margi Dehlin [00:19:44] So kind of all I'm hearing kind of intensity, because there's that here. Yeah, I see.

John Dehlin [00:19:53] So you guys are pretty competitive with each other.

James Camacho [00:19:55] Yeah, very competitive.

John Dehlin [00:19:57] Yeah.

James Camacho [00:19:58] I kind of blame my dad a little for this because, like, failing was not an option, and we both knew it. And so, like, even getting second place was. Which is, like, so dumb because, like, one of us had to get second place every single year.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:15] So there's some inevitability there.

James Camacho [00:20:18] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:18] Going on.

James Camacho [00:20:19] But, like, we would be so disappointed if we ever got second place.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:24] So did you. Did you feel a lot of, like, when you think back to your competitions at that age, did you. Did you feel a lot of pressure or were you excited or. Both.

James Camacho [00:20:38] Let's see. So I think sixth grade, I was very much excited until the state competition. Like, because until chapter, I didn't really know how well we would rank. And then seventh grade. Very excited. Eighth grade was just, like, very stressful because it was my last year. Very much pressured.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:59] Yeah.

James Camacho [00:20:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:01] Fun. Okay. So you both entered that sixth grade competition, and both did super well.

James Camacho [00:21:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:08] And where did that take you?

James Camacho [00:21:10] Okay, so the Chapter round. Joseph got first. I got fourth. I'm like, okay. I needed to do something so the top four make it to nationals. So I'm like, I could make it to nationals. And just as for sure going to nationals. That means even if I don't win, I have to at least make it to the national competition. So I studied a bunch more. State competition was a month away, so we ended up doing it. It didn't go too great, but how many hours?

John Dehlin [00:21:36] Like a day or a week as a sixth grader, were you studying math?

James Camacho [00:21:40] Probably, like, one to. To two hours a day.

John Dehlin [00:21:44] Okay.

James Camacho [00:21:45] Not on Sundays, though, because, like, that was, like, Mormon rule, to be clear. Yeah, yeah. You don't work on Sundays. So anyways, say competition came around. I tied for second place with two other people. So it was. Joseph got first, second, third, and fourth. We both got, like, 32 points. And then fifth place got 31 points. So I just barely squeaked it.

John Dehlin [00:22:06] Okay.

James Camacho [00:22:07] So I was, like, very happy about that. I didn't even care about the national competition, but so it worked out. Um, seventh grade, we got first and second again. I got second. I should have gotten first. Oh, well. Um, and then eighth grade, I ended up getting first, but that was, like, the most stressful day of competition.

John Dehlin [00:22:28] How did y' all do at nationals?

James Camacho [00:22:30] So sixth and seventh grades, we didn't really care because we had, like, more years in eighth grade. We wanted to make top 12, because. Top 12. So there's, like, this run in target round. There's also a countdown round, which is for the very top people, where it's like you're pitted head to head against each other. It's kind of like Jeopardy. So first to buzz in and answer it right gets the points. So we wanted to make countdown round, which is top 12. But this is, of course, across the nation. And New Mexico, it's not a very competitive state, so we didn't make countdown round of her, which is sad.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:09] That sounds so intense, by the way. The countdown round.

James Camacho [00:23:12] Yeah, I mean, like, there's also countdown round at state. Oh. That was actually kind of intense in eighth grade. So I need to actually clarify this a little. We moved to Utah in eighth grade. So in Utah, the countdown round is official, as in it counts for your ranking. So if you end up getting fourth in the written competition, but then, like, losing the countdown round and end up fifth place, you would not go to nationals.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:42] Oh.

James Camacho [00:23:42] So it was, like, a lot more. Yeah. Stressful that way. Anyways, so, yeah, countdown round was kind of stressful. So we didn't countdown to nationals, but, like, we did really well. We got. I got like 30th place. Joseph got like 35th.

John Dehlin [00:23:59] So y' all were in the top 50 math students in the nation.

James Camacho [00:24:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:03] That's pretty cool. There's only 50 states, right? So. Yeah, that's really cool.

James Camacho [00:24:10] I think we could have done better. Like, we were just really stressed the whole day.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:13] Yeah, that makes sense.

James Camacho [00:24:15] It is what it is.

John Dehlin [00:24:16] And was it the type of thing where your parents or your ward, you know, your family was super proud of you both or

James Camacho [00:24:25] not really?

John Dehlin [00:24:25] No.

James Camacho [00:24:26] Like, okay, when we. Every time we placed a certain place, once we got first and second and state, that was just the expected from then on. So I feel like our parents just kind of expected us to make Canton round and then we didn't. So I'm sure they were proud of how well we did, but kind of wanted us to do better.

John Dehlin [00:24:53] Were your other siblings older and younger, also interested in STEM kind of stuff?

James Camacho [00:24:57] So my older brother didn't do math as much. He did the geography B. So in elementary, middle school, he got like second in state, but only first goes to nationals in that. So

John Dehlin [00:25:11] it sounds like academics was highly emphasized in your family.

James Camacho [00:25:14] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:25:16] Yeah. And it was public schools, not private schools or home schools.

James Camacho [00:25:19] Yeah, it was public schools. Okay. Like, let's see. Oh, yeah. I remember our dad, like, told us one time, you can choose when you go to college. You can choose any major as long as it's a hard science.

John Dehlin [00:25:34] So, yeah, strong preferences there.

James Camacho [00:25:36] So, like, our older brother was probably a little disappointed because, like, the family culture was very mathy sciencey. And he did get into that eventually, but just like, years after us, because he was doing geography in middle school.

John Dehlin [00:25:50] Got it.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:51] Have you ever. So again, you can decline if you want, but what's the reasoning behind hard science? Only? Is it like a superiority, like he feels like they're superior to or.

James Camacho [00:26:05] Yeah, yeah. I mean, they kind of are. Like,

John Dehlin [00:26:10] Mark, he's an English major.

James Camacho [00:26:12] I mean, when it comes to, like, applications, if you're trying to build a computer, you need to know electrical engineering and math and physics. So almost all technology comes from the hard science. Actually, all technology comes from the hard sciences.

John Dehlin [00:26:33] If you want to build. He said, if you want to build stuff, Margi, you need the science, the hard science.

Margi Dehlin [00:26:39] There are many things that make this world go round. But here's what I'll say. Here's what I'll say. Like, so. So was your dad, would you say, very involved in your process of these math competitions or was he more hands off? And you'd come home and tell him and then you would experience kind of if there was some type of disappointment or like. How would you describe his involvement?

James Camacho [00:27:05] He would say he was very hands on. I would say that he was kind of hands on. But, like, it was mostly me and Joseph just doing our own thing.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:13] Okay.

James Camacho [00:27:14] Um, so, like, he was our math counts coach in middle school, which meant he ran the club. But that also meant, like, he was mostly talking to the other students there because Joseph and I were just, like, doing our own thing.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:28] Yeah.

James Camacho [00:27:30] So up until about like, six, sixth grade, seventh grade, he did teach us some math, actually a lot of math. But after, like, seventh grade, it was just we were kind of on our own.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:42] And then switching from the move from New Mexico to Utah, was that kind of a switch up as to level or how many people? Yes, like, difficulty. And also, I don't know how many people. Were there more people in competitions or how did it affect your experience in eighth grade to move?

James Camacho [00:28:02] So in eighth grade I got a lot better because there was, like, no one else around me who cared about math. So in terms of the levels, New Mexico and Utah are about the same in math counts competitiveness. But in New Mexico, I was at the middle school that had, like, all the top students. So like, we had, like, nine of the top 10 places at state. So basically, like, all my friends in middle school were also into math. And, like, when I went to math counsel club, we could socialize more. So I probably didn't try very as hard though, in seventh grade because I was socializing more at math club instead of, like, studying. But it was a lot nicer.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:51] It was like a community, it sounds like.

James Camacho [00:28:54] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then when I moved to, like, Utah, it was just kind of me and my brother, that's it. We went home early from school to, like, do our own math and science studying.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:04] Oh, really?

James Camacho [00:29:05] Yeah. And so basically we studied probably like two hours, maybe three hours on average a day for math. And because, like, we didn't have any friends, we just, like, got. Because, like, we were only at school half the time. So we just, like, got home. Studied math, studied math more.

John Dehlin [00:29:25] So what about, like, music or sports or other social things?

James Camacho [00:29:32] Yeah, sports wasn't a big thing in our family. In high school, we were told we had to do a sport, but before then, not really. Actually. We did do swim team for a couple years, but I didn't really enjoy it when it comes to music. Our mom felt that was very important. So we started learning violin and piano like six or seven years old. But we actually. My twin and I quit piano when we got to middle school so we could just focus on math.

John Dehlin [00:30:10] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:30:12] Okay.

Fitting In Culturally as a Utah Outsider

John Dehlin [00:30:13] So did your family's relationship with the church change coming to Utah? And then I know a major theme in kind of the essay you sent me was fitting in culturally with the kids in Utah, even though you were Mormon. You know, and I'll say a white Mormon because I think that plays in to the essay you wrote weirdly as a white Mormon kid struggling more to fit in in Utah than in New Mexico.

James Camacho [00:30:42] Yeah. So I think part of the reason our mom wanted to move to Utah so much is because we have, like, family here, but also because it's like the Mormon bubble. But when we actually ended up getting to Utah, Mormonism is a lot more social and liberal, especially, like, right around BYU with all the professors. So our mom was certainly disappointed about that.

John Dehlin [00:31:10] That it was more liberal.

James Camacho [00:31:12] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:13] So when you say liberal, what do you mean? And what did your mom mean?

James Camacho [00:31:16] Okay, so I am trying to use the same definition my mom would use. So people who would advocate for women in the priesthood or LGBT rights and so on. And she was very conservative in that regard. The prophets are right kind of deal.

James Camacho [00:31:41] So she would complain about the other people in our wardrobe, like, oh, and then also, like, I also said it was like, a lot more social. As in, people would just, like, come to church for the community. Versus back in New Mexico, the only people who would come to church were, like, the people who are really into the church. So people would go to church. Sure. For community, but also, like, to put in their work and callings and whatever. So that also bothered my mom.

James Camacho [00:32:07] I didn't really care too much because, like I said, I didn't have a call. I was just a teen. But I did hear. But it did bug me a little going in the youth groups where we didn't have stuff ever planned. In New Mexico, people were a lot better at planning stuff.

John Dehlin [00:32:26] So it sounds like your mom was very orthodox. Meaning, I don't wanna say fundamentalist in her beliefs, but pretty conservative in her religious beliefs.

James Camacho [00:32:37] My dad's the same way, but I think he's more willing to at least think about other ideas.

John Dehlin [00:32:46] Yeah. Were you ever called a nerd in middle school or high school? Were you ever bullied, mistreated, or were you super respected and valued for your love of science or love of math?

James Camacho [00:33:01] Yeah, so I don't think I was ever bullied. I just. I didn't give people the time to do that. I like. Like when people. Okay. I remember, like, one time someone came up to me and was like, multiply these two big numbers, and it's just like, whatever. So I just, like, ignored people like that. I think lots of people did respect me. I did get called nerd a lot, but it was more of a friendly way. I still didn't like it, though, so.

John Dehlin [00:33:32] And is that for someone who's really good at math, kind of competing at the national levels? Is that the type of thing you could do is multiply two large numbers in your head or not?

Margi Dehlin [00:33:42] No.

James Camacho [00:33:42] I mean, I could do it a lot better than most people, but it's not like I've trained for that.

John Dehlin [00:33:47] So, like, five digits times five digits, that's not the type of thing.

James Camacho [00:33:50] No, I could do, like, three digits times three digits, and, like, it would take me a couple minutes.

Margi Dehlin [00:33:54] But you're like, living your day and the people are like, performing.

James Camacho [00:33:58] Go perform for us. It was just, like, funny. That's what people thought, especially in sixth grade. This is what people thought the math meant. And like, no, it's like, there's so much more to it.

John Dehlin [00:34:10] Yeah. How would you describe what it means? It's not being able to multiply large numbers in your head.

James Camacho [00:34:19] Okay. I mean, that's just like arithmetic, and it's like just a skill you have to have. But I kind of think of math as an art. And it's like trying to fit or trying to make, achieve something, like, within the math with the simplest in, like, most beautiful way possible.

John Dehlin [00:34:47] So math is an art.

James Camacho [00:34:51] Yeah. That wasn't a great explanation, but no,

John Dehlin [00:34:55] there's an elegance to figure. It's like a puzzle. Figuring out the simplest way.

James Camacho [00:35:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:01] The most efficient way to do a calculation, maybe, or arrive at an answer or.

James Camacho [00:35:06] Yeah. Like, to solve a problem. Like, I kind of think of it. You have some problem you want to solve, and, like, how do you go about solving it? At least that's applied maths. Then there's, like, theoretical math, which I don't really like, but that's very much more in the artsy category.

Margi Dehlin [00:35:22] Okay, so with applied math is, do you get to a place where you can have a problem and actually use a number of different. There are a number of different ways you can go about actually solving a single problem. I mean, or is there a right, kind of the correct way?

James Camacho [00:35:40] Okay. Usually it's like, you think about it and you're like, you know, I'm just going to use, like, an analogy for, like, No, I don't know how to explain this. So I think there is, like, a right way, but it's kind of like the obvious way to go about it. You just have to find the obvious way. Like, so, for example, if you're, like, trying to find. So a determinant is basically a volume. And if you're trying to find the volume of something, if you just go down to what does volume even mean? Then it becomes super obvious how to do this. And so there is one right way, but it's like, yeah, yeah, cool.

John Dehlin [00:36:34] So what?

James Camacho [00:36:36] I don't think that was a great explanation.

John Dehlin [00:36:37] No, it's okay. No, I think we're getting a sense for what you're talking about.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:42] You're doing great.

John Dehlin [00:36:42] Yeah. So if your mom is really orthodox, your dad is a little bit more open, and then you move to a Provo Ward where your dad's going to work for byu, I assume. And it's kind of. I often liken. Coming to Utah as a Mormon from out of state is like coming to Oz, where. Where you think you're gonna meet the wizard and you think you're gonna be in Emerald City, where everything's super Mormon and super perfect. Was it a culture shock for you? Was it awesome? Was it everything you dreamed of as a Mormon kid?

James Camacho [00:37:17] It was a huge culture shock.

John Dehlin [00:37:19] In a good way or a bad way?

James Camacho [00:37:21] In a bad way.

John Dehlin [00:37:21] Okay, how so?

James Camacho [00:37:23] Like, how so? I felt like the Mormons were less Mormon, like, less pure Mormon, less orthodox Mormon in Utah. And then, like, just also all the other things I cared about, no one else cared about in Utah. So, like, Mormonism was a decently big part of my life, but, like, the biggest parts of my life, like math and science, like, no one cared about in Utah. So that's not quite true. We actually did have one guy in my ward who made Nationals, like, a couple years before me. So in my Utah word. So there's that. But, like, his parents were very liberal, and my parents were like, you shouldn't talk to him, or, like. And also, like, he was older than me, so I didn't hang out too much with him anyway.

John Dehlin [00:38:15] So, like, on average, you're saying Utah high school kids cared less about math than New Mexico high school kids?

James Camacho [00:38:25] Yeah, I guess it started in eighth grade, but, yeah, okay, a lot less. So.

John Dehlin [00:38:31] And do you know why that. Did you have it? Did you ever get a sense. Did you ask around? Did you ever try and figure out why that was so?

James Camacho [00:38:36] I was, like, very confused for three years because it's like, in the Doctrine and Covenants, seek out learning out of every good book. Like education is a huge thing in Mormonism. Like the BYU Pathways program they keep. And there's so many general conference talks about how you need to get an education and learn and whatever. So I was so confused because I would go and tell my friends, like, hey, do you want to learn some math? And everyone said no. So, yeah, I was very confused for several years. I think I have an explanation now for why now. I think it's because people who are very rigorous, learn lots of math and science, end up going to, like, out of state for college or just like thinking about everything a little more rigorously, and then they dive into the deep doctrine of the church and become a lot more nuanced or leave Mormonism.

Applying Scientific Rigor to Mormon Doctrine

John Dehlin [00:39:39] So they kind of apply the intellectual rigor that they learn in math or science to Mormon doctrine, history, and theology. And maybe they don't always fare well as orthodox believing Mormons. I don't want to put words in your mouth.

James Camacho [00:39:52] Yeah, that's what I think. So I would call it evaporative cooling, because it's like all the smartest people end up leaving. And so what ends up happening is the parents who could best teach their children math and science aren't going to teach them Mormonism as well.

John Dehlin [00:40:10] And when you say, and this is an interesting part of the conversation, we'll probably return to it, but there's probably different types of intelligence. I think this is kind of what Margi was alluding to when she talked about English versus math, for example, because there are plenty of super highly intelligent. Well, first of all, there's plenty of super bright people that just either aren't interested in math and science or aren't good in math and science, but they're brilliant in other ways. Maybe they could win a national spelling bee, but not be great at math.

James Camacho [00:40:42] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:43] You know what I'm saying? I'm sure you'd agree with that.

James Camacho [00:40:44] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:40:45] But also what I've noticed is that while the Mormon Church does really encourage education, it's not an education in philosophy or an education in biology per se. It's more like whatever would get you to be a dentist, whatever would get you to be an orthodontist or an attorney or an accountant. The types of. And there is some science and math in that.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:13] That.

John Dehlin [00:41:14] But it's sort of a means to an end to what I would say is kind of a highly lucrative career, but not one that is prone to lead to deep questions. Like studying teeth isn't Necessarily going to get you to the point of questioning the philosophical foundations or the truth claims of your faith.

James Camacho [00:41:36] Yeah. So a lot to unpack there first. I totally agree. There's tons of bright people who do not care about math and science. And honestly I probably would have ended up being one of them, maybe an artist or pianist or something if not for my family culture being super math science heavy. And because my family culture was super math and science heavy, I always interpreted get an education as get an education and learn as much math and science as you can. So. But I guess it does make sense. There are a ton of dentists and doctors and like in my extended family, like most of them care a lot about math and science, but most of them are not mathematicians or scientists. So that's interesting.

John Dehlin [00:42:20] Yeah. And there's all sorts of other disciplines that would not be well suited for a long term orthodox faith. Geology, you know, psychology, sociology. Many, many academic disciplines that just wouldn't be compatible with a long term orthodox Mormon faith.

James Camacho [00:42:43] I mean, not necessarily.

John Dehlin [00:42:46] Someone say biology?

James Camacho [00:42:48] Yeah, not necessarily because like there's obviously biology professors at byu, so some people make it work.

John Dehlin [00:42:54] Yeah, yeah. But like you were saying there, there might be a lot to get weeded out. I would also add like archeology, anthropology, you know, history, Those are perilous. Those could be perilous disciplines, I think.

James Camacho [00:43:08] Yeah, I think especially one issue though with the hard sciences is like the rigor. There is so much more than almost any other subject.

John Dehlin [00:43:18] Name some of the hard sciences. You.

James Camacho [00:43:19] Oh, so I consider the hard sciences. Physics, let's see, chemistry, kind of electrical engineering. And then math isn't a hard science, but it is very rigorous. So. Okay, I don't consider that.

John Dehlin [00:43:34] What about biology?

James Camacho [00:43:35] No, I don't consider that a hard science. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:43:37] Because like math.

James Camacho [00:43:39] So like, because like biology you don't really understand on the fundamental level how proteins work. You just kind of like. It's a little more wishy washy there.

John Dehlin [00:43:49] Interesting.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:50] Okay, it is interesting. So when you're talking about being a lover of math and science, the science that you love, is it physics and. Or do you love biology too? But you just like, how would you talk about the science part that you love?

James Camacho [00:44:09] So I actually kind of like a lot of different subjects. So when it comes to science, what I like about math and science is trying to find the simplest solution to something. So. Or like for example, one day I was just trying to think, if you have a bar magnet, what temperature does it start to denature at? And then you can imagine so how a bar magnet works is you have a bunch of electrons that have their spins pointing the same direction, and they're all aligned in the same direction, but as the temperature increases, they will randomly flip directions more and more. So I was just trying to figure this out.

James Camacho [00:44:52] After a certain critical point, critical temperature, they'll just be completely random. That's what it means to be denatured. Won't stick to anything. So what I like about math and science is coming up with a problem. What temperature does this denature? And then breaking it down into like, okay, we have these spins, has this probability based on this temperature, and you can just figure out the exact values.

Margi Dehlin [00:45:19] Yeah, yeah. I'm connecting with the process of what you love about each. What are the sciences that give you that?

James Camacho [00:45:29] So I think it's mostly physics. So I actually haven't branched too much into the science realm. So I'm mostly a math and computer science guy. Computer science, though, like, it's a hard science, but let's see. It's just. It's not the same.

John Dehlin [00:45:50] Yeah, yeah. So like particle physics, if that's what that's called. It's. It's basically understanding the. As deeply and as intricately as you can. The nature of reality. Right? The nature of things.

James Camacho [00:46:03] And then if you do that, like, you can figure everything else out.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:07] Yeah. Foundational. It's really foundational.

John Dehlin [00:46:09] It's kind of the discipline of getting to the roots of how things really work.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:12] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:46:13] Is that right?

James Camacho [00:46:13] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:15] And you like that?

James Camacho [00:46:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:17] But once you, once you start doing that, it can become contagious for all other aspects of your life, right?

James Camacho [00:46:24] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:24] Okay, wait, I have one last question before you put a pin in that. Okay, so you've alluded to your family culture a couple times, saying you, your family culture is kind of what really influenced you going into math and sciences. Would you say just within the Mormon. I'm trying to understand the Mormon context within a home. Was that, did your mom share in that? Cause you've kind of talked about your mom in a way of like not necessarily herself valuing or being. How did you say it with her, but your dad? Definitely. So was it the patriarchal kind of with your dad leading or was it both of them where you felt like to say we were a math and science family. Does that make sense?

James Camacho [00:47:15] So I feel like my dad was a lot more academically inclined, like even when he was younger. And then like, especially then because like my mom became a stay at home mom versus my dad was like doing physics Research, my dad became even more so. I think my mom does care about math and science. She just hasn't had nearly the experience or amount of time put into it.

Margi Dehlin [00:47:41] And did she vocalize too? Kind of like this emphasis on math and science as well when you. So maybe not in her schooling, but in her. The way she kind of curated your home experience about what classes to take or why. Why your dad was saying what he was saying. Does that make sense?

James Camacho [00:48:02] Kind of like, I think it was more of a supporting role. Like she wasn't ever the one saying like, this is what you should do.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:08] Okay.

James Camacho [00:48:09] But yeah, yeah, thanks for that.

Scrupulosity and Religious Anxiety in High School

John Dehlin [00:48:12] So as you start noticing that your Utah middle school and high school peers aren't as into math and you're feeling like you don't quite fit in, how does, how does your testimony and your relationship with the church evolve from middle school into high school?

James Camacho [00:48:32] So actually at the end of middle school, right. I didn't make the countdown round in this math competition. I was really disappointed. So I actually.

John Dehlin [00:48:42] At state or nationals.

James Camacho [00:48:43] Nationals. Okay. So I actually stopped doing math for like six months, maybe even. No, I mean I did like school math, but other than that I didn't really do competition math. And so during that time, like especially being in the Utah culture, I realized like I wasn't as into Mormonism as many of my peers. So obviously, so. So my peers would be like the other orthodox Mormon kids. Like that's what I mean. So I actually started trying even harder. I would say I developed religious scrupulosity at this time.

John Dehlin [00:49:28] How do you explain that? Your parents were noticing liberal ward members and people associated with BYU who are more progressive or liberal, yet your friends were more into Mormonism than you? I would assume that their parents were progressive or liberal. Your parents were more orthodox, yet their kids are more into church than you. How do you.

James Camacho [00:49:50] Okay, so I think actually most of my friends though had more orthodox parents. They were from different wards.

John Dehlin [00:49:56] Okay. You just hung around the more orthodox kids.

James Camacho [00:50:00] Yeah, well, because I knew to avoid the more liberal, especially if my parents are talking bad about those kinds of parents and kids, like, I'm not going to hang out with them.

John Dehlin [00:50:10] So if a kid has feminist leanings or LGBT sympathies, you're like, stay away from them.

James Camacho [00:50:16] Yeah, I don't think it was a conscious effort. It just was like. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:50:23] Were there other markers like swearing or R rated movies or showing your shoulders or so?

James Camacho [00:50:29] Actually I didn't have very many friends until like 11th grade.

John Dehlin [00:50:32] Okay.

James Camacho [00:50:33] Um, so. But of the people like I would hang out with. Let's see. I wouldn't put effort towards hanging out with anyone who wasn't. Didn't look devout Mormon, so.

John Dehlin [00:50:47] Okay. All right.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:48] So I'm kind of hearing a couple things. I'm hearing. In the move to Utah, you lost a community and had more of an experience of being alone. Is that right? In Utah? And then over time, having a form of OCD around, you know, your religion show up. Do you remember what you were feeling during those years when scrupulosity started manifesting in you?

James Camacho [00:51:23] Yeah. So let's see. I think part of it was

John Dehlin [00:51:30] maybe explain to the audience what you understand scrupulosity means.

James Camacho [00:51:33] Okay, yeah, sure. So in ninth grade, I wasn't very good in seminary. It was, like, I had it, like, first period of the day, because in Utah, you can do that. But I was, like, very tired. In 10th grade, I started trying to be better.

James Camacho [00:51:51] And, like, by 11th grade, I was trying to participate all the time in seminary. I wasn't actually very comfortable participating, but I tried. And then I was trying to read my scriptures every single day. I'd get mad at myself if I forgot one day.

James Camacho [00:52:09] I would. So I felt like the thought police on myself. I was the thought police on myself. So, like, there's some scripture where, like, Jesus says, even if you even think about a girl that way, and it's like, so. So, like, I literally couldn't even think, like, that girl is cute.

James Camacho [00:52:31] Stuff like that, because I'm like, oh, no, that's wrong. And just, like, very, like, I was censoring my own thoughts a bunch of times just because I felt that's what I had to do.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:45] Mm.

John Dehlin [00:52:47] Yeah. What types of thoughts were you trying to censor?

James Camacho [00:52:50] Just, like, anything sexual. What else? Ooh, okay. Just like. Oh, anger as well. Like, if I ever got mad at someone, I didn't want to lash out at them or, like, say anything potentially hurtful because I did this once in, like, third grade and felt guilty for literally years, until I apologize years later for something that happened literally in third grade. And it was an accident even to start with, that kind of religious scrupulosity where I have to make sure I don't do anything bad or I'll feel guilty for years.

John Dehlin [00:53:34] Yeah. And so for those who have never heard of scrupulosity, we've covered it a lot of Mormon stories, but it's basically religious obsessive compulsive disorder. And OCD is usually characterized by obsessive thoughts and then some sort of behavioral compulsions that become almost addictive as a way to neutralize the obsessive thoughts. And one last caveat.

John Dehlin [00:54:00] Rumination can be a form of compulsive behavior. In other words, you have these intrusive thoughts come in, and then you're constantly ruminating as a way to neutralize the anxiety that the obsessive thoughts, you know, elicit. So you could. This could. This could lead to hyper. Hyper praying, hyper scripture reading, hyper church attendance, hyper performance, but also hyper guilt, hyper shame, hyper confessing to the bishop. These are all manifestations of religious scrupulosity that's its own diagnosable mental illness. It's a very serious thing. You know, we often think about hand washing with OCD or counting or, you know, hoarding or those types of things, but scrupulosity is absolutely a form.

James Camacho [00:54:56] Yeah. So. So lots of guilt. But, like, the thing is, I didn't. Hadn't actually really done, like, anything bad ever. Like, I wouldn't even say mean things to other people, even if I was angry.

John Dehlin [00:55:07] But in your mind, you were constantly feeling what?

James Camacho [00:55:09] Well, I was constantly feeling guilt for, like, that one mean comment I said two years ago. So.

John Dehlin [00:55:14] As a kid. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so how did that translate into how you felt about your Mormon experience? Or your own worthiness or.

James Camacho [00:55:25] Yeah, so worth. So I. I didn't feel very worthy. I remember one bishop interview where like. Like. Like I confess, like, peeing in the shower. It's like, stuff. Dumb stuff like that.

John Dehlin [00:55:38] You confessed to that?

James Camacho [00:55:40] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:40] What the bishop said.

James Camacho [00:55:41] Yeah, he's just like, whatever. Like he didn't care.

John Dehlin [00:55:46] Yeah.

James Camacho [00:55:47] So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:48] Okay, so. And then you said you were trying to get sexual thought. Keep sexual thoughts from coming.

James Camacho [00:55:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:55] How. How successful were you at?

James Camacho [00:55:58] I think I was decently successful. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:01] You could make him go away.

James Camacho [00:56:03] I mean, no, not really, but, like, I just, like, yell in my head a bunch.

John Dehlin [00:56:08] Okay.

James Camacho [00:56:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:10] So how did this play out in terms of your relationship with the church?

James Camacho [00:56:16] So, like, I was becoming more devout. I don't know. What do you mean by, like, relationship?

John Dehlin [00:56:23] Like, your attendance, your feelings about the church, your obedience to the rules, your commitment to the path that the church had laid out for you. Yeah, that sort of thing.

James Camacho [00:56:33] Yeah. So in middle school, I didn't really care about church that much. In high school, I started caring a lot more. I don't think it's super related to the scrupulosity, though. Just, like, it was more. I saw other people who actually cared a lot more about church around me. So, like, oh, maybe, like, if this Actually is the true church and like, the most important thing. Maybe I should actually be caring a little bit more instead of like caring about math and science so much. So, yeah. I don't think my relationship to the church, like how I thought about the church changed much because of scrupulosity. Okay, but.

John Dehlin [00:57:16] Yeah, but it made you care less and. Or invest less in math.

James Camacho [00:57:24] Made me care a little bit less and like, like I'll have eternity to figure out math, but I only have this time to work on becoming a better church person. Yeah, I still did care about math and science a bunch. I spent a little bit more time worrying about church stuff, but like, not. I don't know. It wasn't too different though.

Searching for Answers in Mormon Apologetics

John Dehlin [00:57:56] So in those high school years, did you find yourself getting interested in reading the Book of Mormon, reading the Bible, learning about seminary and the things taught?

James Camacho [00:58:12] So, I mean, I first read the Book of Mormon when I was like seven. Cause my parents were like, you have to read this before you get baptized. Oh, okay, let's see. And then the Bible was similar. I read that like when I was young, cover to cover. I don't think cover to cover. I read like a majority of it just when I was young because I was bored during sacrament meeting. Well, I have a book I can read.

Margi Dehlin [00:58:36] I guess this does happen. Yeah.

James Camacho [00:58:40] So wasn't too much there, but like 11th grade is when I was probably like the most into the church. This is when I started trying to take notes during general conference, because what if there's something super important I need to write down? What else? I don't know. What else did you ask?

John Dehlin [00:59:03] Did you start to have plans about what you would do after high school, what career you would pursue, what parts of the traditional Mormon plan you would sign up for and follow all that?

James Camacho [00:59:16] Yeah. So when it comes to career, I always plan to like, be a mathematician. Computer science isn't too different when it comes to, like after high school. So in my family, it was just like the default that men go on missions right when they turn 18 or as soon as possible. So I'd had cousins already go. My older brother left on a mission right after high school. So that was just like the default plan. I didn't have to think about it.

John Dehlin [00:59:47] Okay. And as you're. So I'm. I'm assuming you're taking biology, honors biology classes or AP biology classes, AP history. Are you doing all the AP classes? AP chemistry.

James Camacho [01:00:02] So actually starting in 10th grade, I started taking classes at BYU half the time.

John Dehlin [01:00:09] So. Actually taking BYU classes?

James Camacho [01:00:11] Yeah, for like math, computer science, also like one or two science classes.

John Dehlin [01:00:17] So for those who have watched enough Mormon stories or who have studied many of the hard sciences, they'll know pretty quickly that whether it's archeology, anthropology, genetics, you know, you could even say physics, linguistics, there are all sorts of sciences that start to really challenge Bible stories, Book of Mormon stories, Mormon doctrine and theology up through, let's just say 11th grade. As you're really getting into STEM, more and more did any questions start popping out about things like 6,000 year Earth, Adam and Eve, global flood, Noah's Ark, DNA in the book of Mormon and talk about all of those things?

James Camacho [01:01:04] Yeah, yeah. So DNA in the Book of Mormon actually didn't really pop up. I don't know why, I just never really saw thought about it. But like, yeah, Noah's flood and 6,000 year earth was very confusing to me. I'm like, how does this work? My dad had the opinion it was just like a local flood, but it states very clearly it covered the whole earth. And like the 6,000 year Earth was like a big thing. And evolution obviously like cannot. They don't really work out. So I remember like in 11th grade, I started thinking, well, maybe like the Earth really is 6,000 years old, because if the church is true, it's very clear from the scriptures that this is how it has to work out. So I never entertained it too seriously, but I did start having those leanings and that that's like very worrying looking back.

John Dehlin [01:01:59] Very what?

James Camacho [01:02:00] Very worrying looking back.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:02] Worrying.

John Dehlin [01:02:03] Oh, worrying, yeah. Why do you say worrying?

James Camacho [01:02:05] Because like, what other conspiracy theories could I. Like that's how you like fall into conspiracy theories. That you start rejecting evidence because you know something is true to start with.

John Dehlin [01:02:19] And, and you know what, Highly intelligent people can be believers in conspiracy theories, right?

James Camacho [01:02:24] Yeah, My mom is very into conspiracy theories and I think it's because the church has trained her in that way. You come to conclusion first and then try to find evidence to support it.

John Dehlin [01:02:38] And so as your mind starts considering, we'll just say conspiracy theories like 6000 Year Earth, evolution's bad. How do you deal with that fork in the road?

James Camacho [01:02:52] Yeah, so actually one of my friends asked me, like, James, you don't believe in evolution. Sorry, you believe. Sorry, you believe in evolution, right? And I'm like, well, maybe not. But then like, I had a serious think, like, wait. Actually, no, that is completely stupid, James. Of course evolution is real. So. And luckily that happened just like a couple weeks after I started questioning evolution. So I don't even remember how we got onto that topic, but I'm glad that happened.

John Dehlin [01:03:22] And maybe you've already said this, but where did your parents come down on evolution?

James Camacho [01:03:27] I am pretty sure my dad and mom both agree with evolution.

John Dehlin [01:03:31] Agree with it.

James Camacho [01:03:32] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:33] And that's interesting then right there. It's tough, I would guess to be an orthodox Mormon and believe in organic evolution because immediately that means a billions of years old earth.

James Camacho [01:03:47] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:03:48] And it means Adam and Eve weren't the first humans, which means a ton of the Mormon plan of salvation and scripture immediately can no longer be taken literally. Which takes you away from orthodoxy.

James Camacho [01:04:00] Yeah, exactly. So like this is why I started questioning evolution. I'm like for, for those exact reasons. I, I don't know exactly the how my parents resolved this.

John Dehlin [01:04:15] You didn't talk to them about it?

James Camacho [01:04:16] No, no, I did a little bit. So my dad said something about how maybe God guided evolution to help create humans and maybe Adam and Eve were like the first humans, but like, sorry, weren't the first humanoids but like the first humans with souls. Something like that.

John Dehlin [01:04:35] The idea that God used evolution to get organisms to the point of being able to be receptacles of divine spirits.

James Camacho [01:04:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:04:47] And then at some designated point Adam and Eve were the first humanoids that God could send actual human spirits into versus non human spirits before sounds something like that.

James Camacho [01:04:59] Which I don't really understand because the Neanderthals existed for thousands, millions of years. No, not millions, sorry, hundreds of thousands of years like alongside humans. So.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:10] So it also be like a very fast paced evolution if God's hand is in it. It'd be like the whatever thousand year version of actually what would normally take millions of years.

James Camacho [01:05:22] Is that the idea maybe like of the billion year version of what could have taken trillions of years kind of deal.

John Dehlin [01:05:29] Okay, okay, so you're starting. Your parents are giving you their explanation. They're giving you the freedom of believing in evolution but still believing in Mormon doctrine and theology. They're giving you, you know, sort of outs, like regional flood.

James Camacho [01:05:47] Yeah, I would also look up fair Mormon a lot. And then also, ooh, I don't remember. There's this one website, something like where they answer questions, but it's not fair. Mormon. Do you know what this one is?

John Dehlin [01:06:01] I mean there's Book of Mormon central, there's Book of Abraham central.

James Camacho [01:06:06] It's not that one.

John Dehlin [01:06:07] There's Mormoner.

James Camacho [01:06:10] I can't remember what it is.

John Dehlin [01:06:12] Yeah, there's a lot of these out there.

James Camacho [01:06:14] Okay, okay. Yeah. So anytime I had a question that I Couldn't resolve through the Bible dictionary. I would look it up on one of these websites. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:06:26] Yeah. That's interesting. Thinking of a junior, a high school junior, already starting to question the church's truth claims and looking up fair Mormon answers. One of the problems.

James Camacho [01:06:36] This starts sophomore year.

John Dehlin [01:06:37] Sophomore year. Because one of the problems with fair Mormon website is you go up there to ask one question or two, but they've got a thousand questions listed, so it can introduce more questions.

James Camacho [01:06:48] Oh, yes. I didn't actually like fairmormon very much because I think I saw these questions like, huh, this looks a little anti. It was this other. Other site. I don't remember what it's called.

John Dehlin [01:06:58] Okay.

James Camacho [01:06:59] It was much more orthodox also. They're the ones who are like, yeah, evolution. It says in scriptures, like, evolution is not a thing. Earth is 6,000 years old.

John Dehlin [01:07:07] Julia says, ask Gramps. There's a website. Is that it?

James Camacho [01:07:10] That's it.

John Dehlin [01:07:11] Julia nailed it. I remember Ask Gramps. He was an early Internet person, participant, kind of pre. Kind of pre fair, almost.

James Camacho [01:07:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:21] That's funny. Nice job, Julie. Okay. All right. So where does that take your.

James Camacho [01:07:27] Your.

John Dehlin [01:07:29] Your orthopraxy and your orthodoxy in the church?

James Camacho [01:07:32] Yeah. So orthopraxy. I was probably like, I. I was the guy in our youth group who knew all the answers. Okay. Because, like, I thought about them a lot. What else?

John Dehlin [01:07:47] Were you ever tempted to sin?

James Camacho [01:07:49] No.

John Dehlin [01:07:49] In any of the Mormon?

James Camacho [01:07:50] No. The guilt would be way too much if I actually sinned.

John Dehlin [01:07:55] So you would just ruminate about sinning, but not actually sin?

James Camacho [01:07:58] Not even ruminate. I would try my best to not even think about sinning.

John Dehlin [01:08:02] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:03] Yeah. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:08:04] So where did your Mormon story go from there?

James Camacho [01:08:07] Yeah. So I ended up being, like, second counselor, the priest quorum. I tried to organize things a little better once I became in that leadership position, but I kind of gave up because it turns out, like, most of the priests didn't really care about church, which I was so confused about. Like, you go to church every week. Why don't you care to come to activities? Or, like, why are you on your phone during priesthood quorum?

John Dehlin [01:08:37] You cared a lot.

James Camacho [01:08:39] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:43] And it bugged you that other kids didn't seem to care as much?

James Camacho [01:08:46] It did bug me. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:50] Okay. And as you're so. It sounds like your sophomore, junior, senior year were less about national math competitions.

James Camacho [01:08:59] Yeah, kind of. Like, I. I learned, like, just. I was far too competitive in middle school. Like, I was throwing up before some competitions because it was just, like, way too stressful so, so in ninth grade, like I didn't do competition math. In tenth I actually started doing some chemistry. That was an interesting time. What?

John Dehlin [01:09:23] Why?

James Camacho [01:09:23] Why? Because like chemistry, like it's lower math. Yeah, well, lower science, it's more wishy washy. Chemistry is okay because to be like not wishy washy, you have to actually like know quantum mechanics. And I didn't. So. So like in 10th grade I took organic chemistry at BYU.

John Dehlin [01:09:45] That's a class that like pre med students fail, right?

James Camacho [01:09:47] Yeah, I actually didn't do that. Great. I think I got a B.

John Dehlin [01:09:50] Okay, but you're also a junior in high school.

James Camacho [01:09:52] The reason I got a B is because I'm like, dude, this isn't rigorous. Like you have these equations, but it's just like you have to know you can't derive them from anything.

John Dehlin [01:10:03] So you were just turned off by the lack of rigor in organic chemistry?

Margi Dehlin [01:10:06] Yeah, yeah.

James Camacho [01:10:06] I'm like, I don't want to have to memorize 50 equations. I just want to know how it works on a fundamental level and just apply that. Turns out you can't actually do that.

John Dehlin [01:10:16] Okay.

James Camacho [01:10:17] Yeah. So anyways, so 9th and 10th grades I kind of did chemistry. I also got into computer science a little more then I'd already been programming for like a really long time.

John Dehlin [01:10:26] Like Java or what?

James Camacho [01:10:29] I mean I know a bunch of languages, but like Python especially. So I started doing like USA Computing Olympiad, a couple other computer competitions. So. But yeah, so it was nice to have a break from, from the math competitions. In 11th grade I started doing math competitions again.

James Camacho [01:10:52] Actually 10th grade, end of 10th grade, middle of 10th grade. I don't know. So there's a competition BYU hosts every year. I did that, what's it called? Intermountain Math Contest. Once I started doing these college contests, it got actually a lot more fun because I'd reached a point in math competitions where, where it wasn't proof based. It was just like you have to know the formulas. And it became a grind instead of elegant. But once I got to the college competitions, they were all proof based. So there are proof based math ones, sorry, high school ones, but how the system works is you have to go through a couple levels that are not proof based and are very grindy.

James Camacho [01:11:41] And I was never willing to put in the work to get through those. But anyways, so once I started doing college competitions, I started enjoying the competition math again. That was fun. And I also was learning a lot more math because it's like the college competitions can do or literally like any Math out there,

John Dehlin [01:12:04] watching Oppenheimer, there were all these, you know, it mentions Einstein, it mentions Bohr, it mentions Heisenberg. Did you have math or physics heroes? You know, there's Stephen Hawking. Did you have math or physics heroes growing up?

James Camacho [01:12:21] Not really. Like, I kind of liked Vermont a little, but, yeah, not really heroes.

John Dehlin [01:12:33] No heroes.

Margi Dehlin [01:12:33] Okay.

James Camacho [01:12:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:12:34] Okay. Okay. So you're starting to enjoy college level math competitions?

James Camacho [01:12:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:12:40] In high school?

James Camacho [01:12:41] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:12:42] And that's rejuvenating your love and interest in math?

James Camacho [01:12:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:12:45] Okay, then where did things go?

James Camacho [01:12:48] Like, in terms of math, anything, I mean, okay, we're built.

John Dehlin [01:12:52] We're building. We're building to a big decision.

James Camacho [01:12:55] Yes, you're right.

John Dehlin [01:12:56] Yeah. So what. Where are we building to?

James Camacho [01:12:58] So the first college competition, I did, intermountain math contest. I think I won that one. I'm not certain about this, but I'm like, yeah, yeah, No, I did. I'm like, wow, I actually know all of this stuff. I was a little surprised. And then in 11th grade, I did this thing. BYU has this Putnam seminar. So the Putnam competition is a national competition.

James Camacho [01:13:22] And so every week I'd go to the Putm seminar, learned some more competition, math stuff, college level stuff, and we had pizza every week. So that's mostly why I went. Anyways, that year was when Covid hit. So. And because I was taking some classes at byu, this meant I was eligible to take the Putnam. I previously hadn't wanted to take the Putnam, though, because you can only have four years of eligibility. So I'm like, I'll just use this when I'm in undergrad. But because Covid hit, they waived the eligibility thing. They're like, this doesn't count as a year. So I ended up taking the Putnam in 11th grade, and I got like, top 100 in the nation.

John Dehlin [01:14:04] Whoa.

James Camacho [01:14:04] So, yeah, I was really happy about this. And I got, like, the top score from byu, but, like.

John Dehlin [01:14:11] So you're competing with other actual BYU students as a junior in high school?

James Camacho [01:14:18] Yeah. Yeah. And just cultures across the nation.

John Dehlin [01:14:20] Yeah.

James Camacho [01:14:20] So, yeah. So I got a really good score on this, and I'm still really happy about that.

Math Competitions, MIT Admission, and BYU

John Dehlin [01:14:29] I have to ask you if you've ever seen the movie Good Will Hunting and if you ever identified with the Matt Damon character in Good Will Hunting.

James Camacho [01:14:36] I have never seen the movie. I have heard a little bit about it.

John Dehlin [01:14:39] You haven't seen Good Will Hunting?

James Camacho [01:14:40] No.

John Dehlin [01:14:41] It's basically about this kid who's from. From, like, South Boston who never got to go to college, but he was better than everyone in Math.

James Camacho [01:14:50] Yeah, so I've heard a little about

John Dehlin [01:14:53] it like that, but it's rc. You've never seen it?

James Camacho [01:14:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:14:57] Okay.

James Camacho [01:14:57] I mean, like, I watched a couple R movies, but, like, I don't know. I don't care too much about watching movies.

John Dehlin [01:15:04] Okay, well, it's just. I guess I was gonna ask, what's it like to be maybe what some would call a young math prodigy, performing better than people multiple years older than you, who are also probably considered prodigies from their peers. Right.

James Camacho [01:15:23] Yeah. So it was a little weird because I was, like, taking these BYU classes, but I was always the youngest person. I remember one of my professors is like, are you married? But it was hard to understand him. This was over zoom. So I said yes. He's like, oh, do you have any kids? Like, wait, wait, wait a second. I'm not married. I'm only 16. So it was weird having all the students be older than me because, like, I never really became friends with them. But then, like, the people of my own age, it was hard to become friends with because I was just like, not in very many classes with them.

John Dehlin [01:15:57] So it felt. Did it feel lonely? A little isolating?

James Camacho [01:16:00] Yeah, it was a little lonely that way. I ended up, like, doing cross country and track, and I ended up finding friends there.

John Dehlin [01:16:08] What, high school?

James Camacho [01:16:09] Temp view. Okay, so see the shirt? Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:16:14] As the shirt, it says temp view, cross country.

James Camacho [01:16:17] Yes, it does. Okay, so that was a little weird in terms of, like, other stuff. It was kind of nice because I had lots of opportunities. Like, there's lots of professors at BYU who just, like, knew my name and would love to talk to me. I remember in ninth grade, I got to talk to Dr. Lawlor, and he just was showing me some linear algebra and complex analysis stuff and, like, I don't know. Complex analysis? What do you mean? Integral around the pole, whatever. But, yeah, it was, like, good in that way.

John Dehlin [01:16:54] Is he an important math professor at byu?

James Camacho [01:16:57] Well, maybe at byu he wasn't, like, important in my life. Just like, okay, yeah, that was, like, one experience. Yeah. So that was nice. Also, I think I had, like, several professors who wanted to do research with me, but I just never really had the time for that, so. Okay. Yeah, I had lots of opportunities. Yeah, that's good.

John Dehlin [01:17:24] Okay, so that sounds great in terms of your development as someone who loves math. It sounds like you're about to have a very promising set of opportunities for math.

James Camacho [01:17:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:17:35] Yeah.

James Camacho [01:17:36] So 12th grade rolls around. Okay. I'm still very, very. Oh, yeah. Very, very scrupulous. So I'm basically thinking, like, I'll just apply to byu. And that's, like, really it. So I spend, like, I don't know, 10, 20 hours working on my BYU essays. I don't even know why, because, like, I was an easy admit to byu.

John Dehlin [01:18:00] Is it pretty safe to say that if you're winning college competitions at math that, like, a 1600 on the SAT is pretty much a given?

James Camacho [01:18:08] Yeah, yeah. I got a 36 on all the sections on the Act.

John Dehlin [01:18:11] You got a 36 on the SAT? You would have gotten.

James Camacho [01:18:14] So I took the SAT in, like, ninth grade. I didn't do very great, uh, on the math part. No, no, I obviously, I got 800 on the math. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:18:23] Obviously. Okay.

James Camacho [01:18:25] Yeah, yeah, no, yeah, yeah. Like, SAT math is way easier than even math counts, so. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:18:30] Okay.

James Camacho [01:18:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:18:31] Okay. So perfect scores on. On the math stuff.

James Camacho [01:18:33] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:18:34] Okay. So BYU would have been a shoo in.

James Camacho [01:18:36] Yeah, yeah, BYU was a shoo in. But I spent a lot of time. So I wanted to get the Presidential Scholarship at byu, but I didn't understand, actually, that they had two separate applications. First you have your admissions application, and then you have a scholarship application. So I did the admissions application. I spent like 20 hours on it. Scholarship application rolls around, I'm like, oh, well, I guess they can just read all the stuff I wrote in my admissions essay. And then I wrote a couple other things. I don't think they actually do read the admissions essay, though, because I ended up not getting the presidential scholarship. So, like, my older brother had gotten it. I had had extended family, aunts and uncles get it. So I was a little surprised, but, like, yes, but it's probably because, like, I spent so much time on the admissions, but not much on that one.

John Dehlin [01:19:31] Yeah.

James Camacho [01:19:32] So basically my plan was only I'm only going to go to byu. That's literally my plan since I was seven. But then I'm like, you know, I learned some math from MIT. OpenCourseWare. I also did Battlecode, which is a coding competition. So I did that since eighth grade. I'm like, huh. So MIT's kind of a cool school. They do some cool stuff. Maybe I'll just apply to this on a whim.

John Dehlin [01:19:54] Isn't that the top math school in the country? Basically, yeah.

James Camacho [01:19:58] Yeah. But, like, would anything compare? Like, there's not very many Mormons at mit. Like, how am I going to get married if I go to mit?

Margi Dehlin [01:20:05] Yeah.

James Camacho [01:20:05] So. So this is why I never really seriously considered other schools, because I'm like, I need to be Able to find a wife. And to do that, I need to go to byu because, you know, like, marriage is super important.

John Dehlin [01:20:17] Yeah.

James Camacho [01:20:19] And even though, like, like I wasn't able to date in high school because my parents are like, no, you can't actually have a girlfriend. That's against church rules. Like, still, for some reason, I thought a lot about what my dating life would look like in college. And the only place I could have one would be byu. So. Okay, so. But I decided to apply to MIT on a whim. Like, even, like, maybe if I get in, I can, like, just put that on my scholarship application for BYU and it'll make them want to give me a better scholarship so that I'll go to BYU kind of. Deal.

John Dehlin [01:20:56] And is MIT the top math university in the country?

James Camacho [01:20:59] It's the. So. So it has the top mathematicians. If you look at Putnam scores, I think it was like 70 of the top 100 this past year from MIT.

John Dehlin [01:21:11] Okay.

James Camacho [01:21:13] In terms of the math department, I think Harvard might have. The professors, might be a little better, but MIT does have the best students by a lot.

John Dehlin [01:21:23] Yeah. Okay. It's a place to go.

James Camacho [01:21:25] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:21:26] Okay.

James Camacho [01:21:28] So anyways, I applied to MIT kind of on a whim. I have. One of my essays is, like, all about Mormonism, How I'm trying to be like Jesus, whatever. Yeah. I spent like, I don't know, a couple hours on this application. I didn't even, like. I think I read through it like, once just to make sure it wasn't awful. But like.

John Dehlin [01:21:50] Yeah, I'm just trying to imagine an MIT sort of like admissions counselor reviewing an essay that's basically saying, I'm trying to be like Jesus.

James Camacho [01:22:01] Yeah, it was more like about how, like, I want to serve people and I love teaching people math, stuff like that.

John Dehlin [01:22:10] Like a gospel and gospel oriented approach to math, basically.

James Camacho [01:22:14] Yeah. But yeah, looking back, like, I feel a little bad for that officer.

John Dehlin [01:22:20] Okay.

James Camacho [01:22:22] Yeah. But, like, I did have, like, the Academics 36 Act. I did lots of math competitions and CS competitions. So I did end up getting into MIT and I was like, I actually. I didn't care at all. I woke up, like, that Saturday, kind of slept in a little and, like, got out of bed. Like, I don't know, 1pm kind of still foggy. I'm like, oh, okay, cool. I got into, like, looked it up on my laptop. Okay, cool. I got in. Whatever. A couple of hours later, texted my parents. Oh, yeah, got into mit. But I didn't care because.

John Dehlin [01:22:59] Did they want you to go to mit? Did they Want you to go to mit.

James Camacho [01:23:02] Your parents so that. So my dad was, like, super happy. He's like, wow, that's great. I think I was actually a little surprised about this. They took us out to dinner. They're like, for congratulations. And I was a little surprised because when I was doing math competitions, I felt like I had done much more and gotten much less praise. So.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:28] Yeah, that's interesting.

James Camacho [01:23:29] Yeah. And also, like, I didn't care about it, so I'm like, does it really matter to celebrate, so.

John Dehlin [01:23:35] And your brother applied as well, so.

Choosing Between MIT and a Mission

James Camacho [01:23:37] Yeah, my twin brother applied as well. He also got in. Okay. So actually, in, like, my interview, I'm like, if I get in, he should also get in, because he's also awesome, hopefully. No, that probably didn't actually matter anyways, so we got in.

James Camacho [01:23:53] What my parents thought about it. So my dad. My dad was kind of even. He's like, it doesn't really matter where you go through life. MIT would be good. I think he. He said BYU would be a little better. I didn't quite understand why.

James Camacho [01:24:09] So I think he thought mit. Sorry, MIT Mormons were, like, a little nerdy and a little weird, which I agree about, but I didn't know that. He just was like, you shouldn't go to mit. There's a bigger, better community at byu.

James Camacho [01:24:28] My mom was very against me going to mit, and I didn't understand this either for a while. So eventually we went to lunch with some BYU math professors because they're trying to recruit us with my parents, and they're like, okay, we're going to give you a scholarship on top of whatever BYU gives you if you come to MIT and compete in the Putnam for byu.

James Camacho [01:24:57] So very, very appealing at this time. I think I was leaning towards mit, but basically the entire lunchtime, my mom was saying, james, you should not go to mit. You should go to byu. And actually, one of the BYU professors was like, you should go to mit, because he went to MIT and did well and he liked it, I guess.

James Camacho [01:25:21] And then there's also another BYU professor. Sorry, the other professor was saying, no, you should absolutely go to byu. So it was very interesting dynamic, kind of split on. But there's. Everyone was split on where I should go.

James Camacho [01:25:40] So actually, because one of the professors was saying, like, I should go to mit, I started defending byu. Like, no, like, BYU has. Whatever BYU has. Anyways, after the dinner, we're driving. Sorry, lunch. We're driving back. And I'm like, why is my mom so against mit?

James Camacho [01:26:01] And I learn, like, my dad Tells me that one of the professors, the one who is very. For byu, his son went to MIT and later left the Mormon Church. And also my mom had actually gone to prom with this guy's son. So, like, they both had personal experiences with people going to MIT and then falling away from the church. So, like, that's why they were so against it. My mom didn't want me to do that, so that's why I learned.

James Camacho [01:26:35] Then there's like, campus preview weekend at mit. And this is where I actually met all the byu. Sorry, all the Mormons at MIT for their fhe night. And I'm like, okay, now I get why my dad was against mit. Because they were pretty weird. Like. Like, some of them were liberal, but that's not what I mean. Like, just, like, far more nerdy than even the average MIT student.

John Dehlin [01:27:06] Whoa.

James Camacho [01:27:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:27:07] How do you explain that?

James Camacho [01:27:08] So my opinion is, like, it's the only way they can still be Mormon at mit because, like, they have to. What's it called? Compartmentalize Mormonism, and then the rest of their life. So, yeah, that's.

John Dehlin [01:27:24] So that drives them to be extra isolated, extra nerdy, so that they don't get tainted by the world, the worldliness of a secular university. Is that right? Wow.

James Camacho [01:27:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:27:35] So they out nerd the nerds. Mormon MIT nerds. Out nerd the nerds.

James Camacho [01:27:39] I was a little surprised. I'm like, okay. So when I got back, like, I was telling my dad this, and he was like, yeah, this is why I said, you shouldn't go to mit. I'm like, okay, So I have this choice, like, MIT versus byu. And then another choice to make. Do I go directly on a mission? Which is the expected thing to do. But I was also considering not going straight on a mission, going to college for a couple years because I thought I could graduate from MIT a year, maybe even two years early because I'd taken a bunch of classes at BYU already, so wouldn't it make more sense just do that? That way I don't have to relearn a bunch of math or take time

John Dehlin [01:28:19] off for good stuff.

James Camacho [01:28:20] Yeah. So these are my questions. Also, at this time, I was wondering if a mission was even useful or good because I'd been getting emails from all the missionaries from a year older than me who'd left all my friends. And, like, most of them were. Most of them were like, we couldn't find anyone to teach this week when they did teach. This is kind of depressing.

James Camacho [01:28:48] Just those kinds of vibes. And I'm told that Mormon missionaries aren't even supposed to, like, say they're having a bad time, but, like, it still comes across in the emails and like, huh. So they're not finding anyone to teach the gospel, which is like, kind of the whole point of a mission.

James Camacho [01:29:03] They're not having a good time. They're not learning. And then I learned stuff about how missions weren't really required. It was a big shock when I learned that Russell M. Nelson, Dallin H. Ochs, and the top three hadn't gone on missions before college or, like, during college.

John Dehlin [01:29:28] And Nelson, none of the three went on missions.

James Camacho [01:29:30] That was a big shock.

John Dehlin [01:29:32] Yeah.

James Camacho [01:29:32] So. But anyway, so I'm taking mission prep. This is second semester senior year. I'm taking mission prep at BYU because I'm still planning on going on a mission because this is what everyone expects me to do. This is what I have expected myself to do since I was literally, like, in primary singing. I want to go on to be a missionary now, but I'm just looking at this. I'm like, is the mission actually the right thing to do? It's going to delay marriage by several years. It's going to delay my education. All these other things that the church says is good. And like, I know Russell M. Nelson is saying you have to go on a mission and like, but do you actually have to? Like, he didn't.

John Dehlin [01:30:15] He did okay. Yeah, he did pretty good.

James Camacho [01:30:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:30:17] Yeah.

James Camacho [01:30:17] And like, he's literally the prophet. So very much questioning this. So I actually go to my parents and I'm like, I don't know if I want to serve a mission. I feel like I would be doing better things with my life if I even just go to college. So at this time, I was coaching math counts at Centennial Middle School. It was just once a week, but I was thinking about it. I'm like, huh? The people I'm teaching math. Sorry. The math I'm teaching right now is probably having a bigger effect on people's lives than if I were to serve a mission, like, even just once a week.

James Camacho [01:30:54] And so this is why I'm like. So I was seriously questioning this. So I went, I told my parents this. And like, my mom got pretty. I don't know the right word for it. Not disappointed, like, not angry, but just like, let's see. So my dad seemed. I don't know what he thought. He was much calmer. My mom was like, james, you have to go on a mission. Blah, blah, blah, blah. Stuff like that.

James Camacho [01:31:26] Like, yeah, anyways, so that. So there's that gained Lots of pressure from my mom. I think I also got lots of pressure from my dad, but he was more like, we will. I will still accept you even if you don't go on a mission, but in like a you wouldn't be as worthy kind of way. And I think he secretly thought I had been sinning or something. I don't know. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:58] Did their reaction surprise you?

James Camacho [01:32:01] No, not at all. So anyways, this is like, January. I'd been filling out my mission papers, but I never finished them. Partly just because I was procrastinating because. Partly because I wasn't sure I wanted to finish them. I was taking mission prep.

James Camacho [01:32:18] Mission prep was very weird. Like, the professor was a little creepy. As in, like, his smile felt so fake and he just constantly had it on. But, like, yeah. And when he talked about stuff, I remember, like, one time we were talking about, like, I think Alma 31, how Alma, how Korhor is coming and saying, like, there is no God. And then Alma turns around and he's like, well, everything denotes there is God. Just look around you. And at this time, I knew that wasn't a good argument because, like, no, it doesn't.

James Camacho [01:33:07] But my professor is like, see, look, there's a logical fallacy here. Like, oh, he's going to point out Alma's logical fallacy. Because, like, that's the logical fallacy. Like, no, he said korihor is the one with the fallacy. And I was shocked. I'm like, whoa, you're so close.

James Camacho [01:33:25] So we were required to read, like, I don't know, 15 to 30 minutes from these specific chapters every single day. So I'd read through them a bunch of. And like, two chapters later, Alma actually fixes this fallacy with, like, a different things. I thought that's the way he was going, but no, no, no, no, no. He talks about how korihors the one with the fallacy. Because can't you just look around you? Everything denotes there is a God. So that all the salesmen. It felt very like we were being taught to be salesmen in this mission prep class.

James Camacho [01:33:55] Like, for example, after. You should always extend an invitation to or a commitment after every single discussion. Like, will you pray about this? Will you come to church? Whatever? And it's like, that's very salesman y not sharing the gospel.

James Camacho [01:34:14] So I was getting very turned off from a mission, but I felt a bunch of pressure to go. So that's where I'm at. These are the decisions. Mission, mit, byu. Actually, there's also the fourth, like, no college at all? Because I don't know, college is a little useless.

John Dehlin [01:34:33] You could become like, like, Bill Gates didn't finish college.

James Camacho [01:34:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:34:37] Steve Jobs didn't.

James Camacho [01:34:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:34:39] Finish college. Is that the idea?

James Camacho [01:34:42] No, I actually wasn't thinking of startups, but I had the skills. Like, I was already a top 1% programmer, so, like, I could find a job if I needed to.

John Dehlin [01:34:53] So Amazon or.

James Camacho [01:34:54] Yeah. Microsoft or somewhere.

John Dehlin [01:34:56] Facebook meta, whatever.

James Camacho [01:34:58] Yeah. Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:59] I have a question about the. After you kind of told your parents that you were thinking of not going on a mission or that a mission might not be the best use of your time. Right. Do you remember after their responses, did it affect you? Like, did it affect the way you were feeling at the time in any way? Or do you feel like after you met with your parents and your mom had kind of that strong reaction of like, go, no, no, no, go. And you did it, or were you just neutral? You felt the same way?

James Camacho [01:35:37] I didn't feel too much different. I did feel a little extorted because I hadn't wanted to tell them that. I just kind of wanted to keep it private, think about it more on my own. But, like, they'd kind of pushed for like, what are you thinking about? Yeah. So, like. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:35:57] Okay. So when you actually told them it wasn't your intention going into it that you were gonna tell them? That's something that was brought out in the conversation.

James Camacho [01:36:08] I was just talking to them. A little tired. Um. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:12] Okay. All right. But with regard to your feeling about how it might not be the best use of time, their reactions didn't really affect. Is that what you're saying?

James Camacho [01:36:25] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:25] Your feeling or thought about.

James Camacho [01:36:28] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:28] Okay.

James Camacho [01:36:29] Like. Like all they could really say was, you have to be a returned missionary to be like a good Mormon or whatever. And it's like, huh.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:40] Yeah.

James Camacho [01:36:41] But like, that's also what I felt for a very long time. So.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:36:47] So it sounds like at this point the. The questions about BYU Mission/ MIT College were kind of like wedges into you questioning what you had been taught, the social assumptions, the religious assumptions which you'd been taught your whole life. Yeah, it was kind of forcing it to all come to a head, maybe.

James Camacho [01:37:09] Yeah, it was. I'm like, I have to figure this stuff out. So actually, my questioning of authority started a little earlier. So, like, basically I noticed that I would not ever hang out with a female friend one on one because my parents are like that. That's basically dating. And like, you can't. You have to go on group dates only. So this happened. This was like in the beginning of 12th grade, I noticed this. I'm like, huh? But that's not what Jesus would do. So I stopped following that rule, which it definitely felt like a rule. So that's when I would say I started questioning all the rules and what my duty and right thing to do is and try to figure out what actually is the right thing to do.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:06] And how would you talk about? Did that make your, did you have any kickback scrupulosity wise?

James Camacho [01:38:13] Oh, absolutely not.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:14] Okay.

James Camacho [01:38:15] I'm like, no, this is absolutely the right thing to do.

John Dehlin [01:38:18] So you at some point were able to shake off kind of the Mormon orthodox Mormon voice in your head that was causing you to doubt yourself.

James Camacho [01:38:27] Yeah. And like to listen to what other people say is the right thing.

John Dehlin [01:38:31] That's a really, that's a developmental step many 40 or 50 year olds have a hard time making even after they've lost all faith in the church. So I mean that's significant. That's significant that you were starting to feel that way. It's what, 17?

James Camacho [01:38:47] Let's see. Yeah, I was 17. And so one of my friends, like this was like especially edgy. She was actually ex Mormon, so I would hang out with her one on one, just talk about different stuff. I think she didn't want to talk about the church because like we'd been friends earlier. But I'd gotten kind of mad at her because she'd brought up some ex Mormon stuff. Actually it wasn't because of that, it's because she. Yeah, it was for a little different reason, but it was related to that. So she didn't really talk about the church, which I was glad about. But eventually like as we talked more, she did start bringing up some stuff.

James Camacho [01:39:23] So it was very, it was good to hear another perspective other than like ask Gramps about like, because like I had lots of questions before but I'd always been able to find an explanation. Maybe it wasn't the best explanation, but an explanation. But like to have someone who came to a different conclusion able to talk to, about, talk these things out with was good.

John Dehlin [01:39:50] Well, good from your point of view, maybe not good from your mom's point of view.

James Camacho [01:39:53] I mean, they didn't even know about this because I knew they would not not like me talking. They wouldn't even like me hanging out with girls one on one, let alone talking to an ex Mormon.

John Dehlin [01:40:04] Yeah. So you had to kind of hide that part of your life.

James Camacho [01:40:08] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:40:10] But you felt good about it because you felt like you were seeking truth or what?

James Camacho [01:40:13] Like. Like, like this girl had lost almost all of her friends when she turned ex Mormon. So, like, I wanted to be a good friend. And it doesn't matter. It didn't matter that she's a girl or she's ex Mormon.

John Dehlin [01:40:28] And I guess back to your point about Jesus, that Jesus would have probably supported befriending someone who has rejected a social outcast, right?

James Camacho [01:40:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:40:38] Yeah. So you're trying to follow Jesus the best way you knew how.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:40:45] Okay, so where'd that lead? I was dying to know.

James Camacho [01:40:48] So where did that lead? So actually, we almost started dating. This was like, months later, we almost started dating. I'm like, okay, before we decide on actually becoming boyfriend girlfriend, I need to make sure my parents would be okay with that because this would be a very much public decision. So I went home, talked to my parents, and they were like, absolutely no, you cannot get a girlfriend.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:12] They were like, I'm just so curious, how would you feel about this scenario?

James Camacho [01:41:16] Yeah. Yeah. Before you go on a mission. Absolutely no, you can't have any distractions on a mission at this time. I'm even questioning, like, do I even want to go on a mission? I think this was before I was. I told my parents, though, I was questioning about the mission. So I think when I actually did tell them, they just assumed maybe I did some naughty stuff.

John Dehlin [01:41:38] So for the. Never Mormons fill in the dots about why Mormon parents would not want you dating a young woman before your mission.

James Camacho [01:41:46] Yeah. So I think for my parents, they just assumed I wouldn't actually do anything bad because I was a very responsible kid, but they didn't want me to have any distractions on my mission. But other reasons, parents, I think. Okay, so it's also like, in the force was in the first strength of youth. It's been removed since, but it was in the four strength of youth when I was in 12th grade.

John Dehlin [01:42:08] That this is a pamphlet.

James Camacho [01:42:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:42:10] That you should not.

James Camacho [01:42:11] That you should not have a boyfriend girlfriend until, like, you're ready to be getting married. Which would be after admission.

John Dehlin [01:42:18] Yeah. And also there's that passage about arousing the passions. Do you remember that? Yeah.

James Camacho [01:42:24] I don't think that was too much of a worrying for my parents.

John Dehlin [01:42:27] They weren't worried you'd have sex or had sexual experiences before.

James Camacho [01:42:31] Yeah, I don't think they're too worried about that. Maybe. Maybe my mom a little, actually, but not my dad. But I think that was also. Yeah. Part of it. Like, they want to make sure I'm not making out with Girls, whatever. But, like, you don't need a girlfriend to make out with girls. I don't know.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:49] This is true.

James Camacho [01:42:51] I don't know what they're thinking there. Anyways. Yeah, so, like, for example, my parents didn't kiss until they were engaged. I had a friend back in New Mexico whose parents didn't kiss until they were married. So, yeah, they probably didn't want anything like that to happen. Anything risque.

John Dehlin [01:43:13] So what happened next?

James Camacho [01:43:15] So what happened next? I basically called her up the next day and like, yeah, that we can't date. Like, my parents. My dad literally said he would try to break us up every single day that we date until we are broken up. So, like, that can't happen. Obviously she was, like, upset about that. She later got a boyfriend, though, like, not too long after. So not so bad for her. But I was very disappointed.

John Dehlin [01:43:45] Yeah, okay, that's not good for you.

James Camacho [01:43:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:43:50] So what happened next?

James Camacho [01:43:52] So what happened next? This was like my biggest challenge to authority yet. I've been talking to her about lots of different stuff and. Let's see. So I decided I really needed to figure out if I'm going to byu, mit, mission, whatever this is a couple weeks after that incident. So I decided I need to get my patriarchal blessing that will tell me what to do with my life. So I go set that all up. I get my patriarchal blessing and am extremely disappointed. It doesn't tell me anything. In fact, it's a little insulting. It's like, some of it's like, you need to make sure you give a full day's labor when you work. Whatever. I'm like, dude, why would I ever not be. Not do that? So I'm a little insulted and disappointed. I'm like, there's nothing in there.

John Dehlin [01:44:54] Sometimes the patriarch will interview you beforehand, ask you what dilemmas or issues you're facing. I could imagine a scenario where you're like, well, I'm trying to decide if I'm going to go on a mission or go to MIT or go. Go to college at all. And then magically, that might potentially influence what the patriarch blesses you with in your patriarchal blessing.

James Camacho [01:45:15] So I thought this might happen. So I avoided answering any questions with any details.

John Dehlin [01:45:21] You didn't want to poison the well?

James Camacho [01:45:23] Yeah, unfortunately, actually, the well was already poisoned because my twin brother had gotten his patriarchal blessing from the same patriarch a week before, and they talked. My mom talked with him a bunch afterwards. So the well was already poisoned. I didn't know this, though, or didn't think about it.

Patriarchal Blessing and Seeking a Testimony

Margi Dehlin [01:45:40] John, do you want to explain what a patriarchal blessing is, or do you feel like that's kind of known?

John Dehlin [01:45:45] I mean, for never Mormons, it's basically this super old man gives you a blessing that's supposed to be God's roadmap for the rest of your life, where they'll say, you will serve a mission, you will get married in the temple, you will have a career where you'll influence millions of people and bring them to the gospel. You'll raise righteous children in Zion, and in the end, when you die, you'll raise up in the morning of the first resurrection to meet Jesus Christ and to become a God.

James Camacho [01:46:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:46:12] And you're declared your lineage, your blood lineage, tied to the tribes of Israel.

James Camacho [01:46:17] Of course, at the very end, they're like, these blessings only hold if you actually stay true to the faith.

John Dehlin [01:46:24] They're contingent on your faithfulness, which means if anything doesn't come true, it's what we call blame reversal. It's always your fault if something occurs.

James Camacho [01:46:31] Okay, so anyways, I get my patriarchal blessing. Around the same time, I've been emailing a missionary friend, like, asking for advice. What would you do? Or what should I do, actually? And he's like, james, you should go on a mission. Like, that's the best decision. That's the decision I made. But he also mentioned a couple other things like that right before he left on a mission, he had seriously doubted the Church of Mormonism. Like, even when he was in the mtc, he was very much doubting, like, huh, that's very interesting because this was like one of my most orthodox friends, most believing friends. So I had seminary with him for a semester, and he always participated.

James Camacho [01:47:15] He knew all the hymns, whatever. Just like the most Mormon Mormon you can get. Peter Priest you could get. Similarly, he never dated, whatever. So this was a little confusing to see. And part of the reason I was believing was because I'm like, well, I have all these friends who believe. And not just friends. It'd be very proud to say I know better than everyone around me because I was in a very Mormon bubble within Utah. But even within then, I didn't interact with X Mormons for the most part.

John Dehlin [01:47:50] Or liberal Mormons.

James Camacho [01:47:51] Or liberal Mormons. Yeah. Or never Mormons.

John Dehlin [01:47:54] Yeah.

James Camacho [01:47:54] So I, I was very much in this bubble. And like, I would be. I. I'm the only one who has these questions. I guess most people just know it's true and believe and have their testimonies, and I might have my testimony. But, like, the Reason I'm having questions is because I'm just not being good enough.

James Camacho [01:48:15] So when I heard that this guy also had questions, had doubts, it was a little validating to the part of me that was doubting. And then I also learned, like, so as I told him, like, I looked up to him a bunch. That's why I want your advice. He replied back, like, I look up to you too. You've grown a lot in this last year and whatever. And like, huh. So if I'm looking up to him and he's looking up to me, what if we're both just believing because the. What if everyone is believing because they look up to someone else who believes?

John Dehlin [01:48:45] Sounds like an application of logic or even. Is that right?

James Camacho [01:48:48] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:48] Yeah.

James Camacho [01:48:49] So I read that, and I instantly thought this. I'm like, oh, oh. Like, how deep does this. This get? Do my parents only believe because their parents believed and their peers believed? Like, so I'm like, okay, I need to figure out for myself, like, why do I believe? Because I can't rely on other people's belief. So I came up with a few reasons why I believed. 1. Prophets see God. There's the story Wendy Nelson gave about how she wakes up sometimes in the middle of the night, and the spirit tells her to leave. So Nelson, Russell Nelson leaves the bedroom

John Dehlin [01:49:26] where the prophet sleeps.

James Camacho [01:49:27] Yeah, yeah. So that Russell Nelson can have his spiritual experiences. And like, wow, okay. So President Nelson has probably talked with

John Dehlin [01:49:36] God because presumably she would leave the room so that God could appear. Yeah, so that he and Nelson could speak, whereas God wouldn't appear if Wendy was there.

Margi Dehlin [01:49:47] Yeah.

James Camacho [01:49:47] And then there's, like, a bunch of other general conference talks where apostles would say stuff like, I have a special witness of Christ. I know he lives. Stuff like this.

John Dehlin [01:49:55] Like, I know in ways that are too sacred to explain.

James Camacho [01:49:58] Just like the apostles in Jesus's time. I know he lives. I'm like, well, those apostles literally saw Jesus get resurrected.

John Dehlin [01:50:05] What ground was it?

James Camacho [01:50:06] Well, and saw him after he died. So I'm like, he must have seen God as well. I think this was Holland who said this. So I'm like, okay, this is one of the reasons I believe, because these people have actually seen and talked with God. Why else have I believed? I don't remember the other reasons.

James Camacho [01:50:27] So I think that was one of them. There's a couple others. But, like, slowly, as, like, more questions had been coming up, most of my reasons for believing had disappeared. Oh, another of the reasons I believed. When I was, like, 10, I tried applying Moroni's promise. And I felt like, of course the church is true. I've known this all along. Of course the Book of Mormon is true.

James Camacho [01:50:52] So that was another reason I believed. But talking with like, my ex Mormon friend, it became very clear that lots and lots of people have very similar spiritual experiences. And like, at the time I just kind of wanted to dismiss them. Like, sure, lots of religions have truth, but like, mine is the one true one.

James Camacho [01:51:11] But I'm like, maybe, maybe if there's way more Muslims who believe in the Quran, maybe it's a little proud to say I believe in Mormonism because of the Book of Mormon and because I feel I have a spiritual witness of that. So I'm like, okay, I can't rely on that for my belief. So all I really have at this point, after my patriarchal, this is like a day after my patriarchal blessing, I'm like, I'm figuring this out. I'm like, okay, the only thing I really have left is that prophets have seen and talked with God, starting from Joseph Smith and even nowadays.

Researching Prophets and Church Truth Claims

James Camacho [01:51:43] So I'm like, let's research this. Let's find out all the prophets who have seen and talked with God. And like, that way I can verify that they actually did and know this church is true. So I did this. I looked on BYU studies for all this and I couldn't find like, any stories. I'm like, okay, maybe it's just because it's too sacred.

James Camacho [01:52:05] But then I did find like one story and it was about Lorenzo Snow seeing God in the temple. But then on BYU studies, I found a paper that basically completely debunked this. It was a third account rumor. And so like, okay, so since Joseph Smith, there has literally been no revelation, like, no talking with God.

Margi Dehlin [01:52:32] So

James Camacho [01:52:35] in fact, then I also learned that there's at least three presidents of the church who at least two, maybe three who stated publicly that they had never seen God and all they had was the feeling from the Holy Spirit that told them their church was true. And like, these are the prophets who claim to speak to God and they have not actually, in fact, their witness is no more special than mine is no more special than him of Muslims is no more special than a Jehovah's Witness. So at this point I'm like, yeah, it can't be true. Like, there's literally no reason to believe anymore.

John Dehlin [01:53:08] And you were thinking of Muhammad, right? And other prophets of other faith traditions.

James Camacho [01:53:11] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so at this point I'm like, there's literally no reason to believe. And all the questions I had piled up anachrosms in the Book of Mormon. The Book of Abraham not matching the Egyptian translation. Because at one point I'm like, huh, this would be actually really great. We can translate ancient Egyptian now let's just translate. Let's look up the translated version of the Papyru. I'm like, wait a second. This doesn't match up. But at the time, I'm like, maybe it was just like some revelation from God that was like some apologetic. But once I'm like, there's no reason to believe in the Church in the first place. All these questions, like, wow, these are all evidence that the Church is not true. And so, like, I instantly. Not instant, like, after I figured this out, I'm like, yeah, it's all not true. And so, like, were there sources?

John Dehlin [01:54:03] Like, when you start talking about anachronisms in the Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham translation? You know, there are websites and podcasts and YouTube channels dedicated to this kind of stuff.

James Camacho [01:54:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:54:13] The CES letter. Did you stumble on any of that?

James Camacho [01:54:15] So I avoided anti Mormon sources. So it was mostly just like, reading through the Book of Mormon. I'm like, huh, that's interesting. Or like, with the Book of Abraham, I'm like, huh, we can actually translate this. This would be a huge boost to my faith if Joseph Smith was right here.

John Dehlin [01:54:32] But then you would have had to find a source that talked about the translation. Not.

James Camacho [01:54:36] So I actually found an apologetic source that compared the two translations. Like, they kind of match up here. Kind of match up here. It was just like some special revelation that filled in the gaps that Joseph Smith did. So that was the Book of Abraham. I did actually in 10th grade once stumble upon the CES letter. I didn't know it was anti Mormon, so I was just kind of reading through it, and I'm like, huh, this is kind of dumb. They're talking about how the place names in the Book of Mormon are very similar to place names around Palmyra. That's dumb. Who cares about that? And then eventually, I don't know, a third of the way through, I got to actual issues like anachronisms, and I'm just like, oh, okay, this is wrong. I can't keep reading this. So.

John Dehlin [01:55:18] And when you say anachronisms, you mean

James Camacho [01:55:20] like horses in Book of Mormon, horses steal grain.

John Dehlin [01:55:25] Things that Mesoamerican didn't have, people wouldn't have had during the time.

James Camacho [01:55:30] Complete lack of, like. Also, like, complete lack of archaeology, archaeological evidence.

John Dehlin [01:55:36] Okay, okay. But you put in 10th grade, you put that away.

James Camacho [01:55:40] Yeah. I'm like, yeah, yeah. I. I can't be reading anti Mormon sources.

John Dehlin [01:55:44] Okay. But then your senior year, once you're faced with a real rubber hits the road decision you're willing to entertain.

James Camacho [01:55:53] No, no, no, no. I was not willing to entertain anti Mormon sources. I would go to the questions and doubts questions, sure. But that's true all along.

John Dehlin [01:56:01] Okay.

James Camacho [01:56:02] But yeah, yeah. In 12th grade, I just, like, that's when I actually figured out why do I believe? And then looked at, like, look. To prove or disprove that belief. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, like, I would just like search the church website for any info I could find. I slowly pieced together stuff. I remember reading the gospel topic essays.

John Dehlin [01:56:27] Do you remember which. Which ones were most influential to you?

James Camacho [01:56:29] I think the DNA evidence.

John Dehlin [01:56:31] One DNA in the Book of Mormon.

James Camacho [01:56:32] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:56:33] Do you want to summarize what that said? Basically.

James Camacho [01:56:36] Basically said there is zero indication that Native Americans came from Israelites. There's no DNA evidence for it. They said this does not rule out the possibilities. Several other possibilities. I'm like, yeah, no, that's complete bunk. It absolutely is. Huge evidence against the Native Americans being the ancestors. Sorry, Lamanites being the ancestors of the Native Americans.

John Dehlin [01:57:04] Would you have read the Book of Abraham gospel topics essay where it basically admits that the word Abraham basically doesn't even appear in the papyrus anywhere?

James Camacho [01:57:13] I don't think I read that one.

John Dehlin [01:57:14] Okay. Did you know that it admits that?

James Camacho [01:57:17] No, I didn't.

John Dehlin [01:57:18] Yeah. The gospel topics essay in the Book of Abraham basically says the word Abraham doesn't appear anywhere in the papyrus.

James Camacho [01:57:24] Okay. I don't think that's like too big of an issue though, because, like, Abraham had a bunch of different names and like, even Jesus has like 10 different names just depending on what it is.

John Dehlin [01:57:34] Starting point. In other words, none of the. If. If even the word Abraham doesn't appear there. None of the content that's in the Book of Abraham is in the papyrus. It's a. Yeah, it's a funerary text about a dude who died and, you know.

James Camacho [01:57:47] Yeah, yeah, so. So I already did know this. You already knew that from like the, the other apologetic website I found.

John Dehlin [01:57:52] So did the polygamy, Joseph Smith polygamy stuff bother you at all?

James Camacho [01:57:56] No, it didn't bother me. I think it would have been a lot better if people had talked about Brigham Young and polygamy, because when it came to Joseph Smith and polygamy, there's so much less hard evidence and the church has denied it for so long. And I don't know if they've hidden evidence, but it's just so much harder to prove. So it was so much easier to dismiss. Well, maybe it was just some spiritual wifery, but if they talked about Brigham Young, it would have been a lot easier. He was 50 years old and married a 15 year old. That's absolutely not okay. Especially. Okay. I think the statistic that would have helped the most is like, he had something like, what, 32 wives.

John Dehlin [01:58:33] Brigham?

James Camacho [01:58:34] Brigham.

John Dehlin [01:58:35] I think Brigham had over 50.

James Camacho [01:58:36] 50. I think he had. I think it was a one to one ratio of wives to children. Almost exactly. And like, if I'd heard that, I'd been like, oh, well, the whole reason for polygamy was like having a bunch of children because there weren't enough men around. But, like, that's obviously disproves that. So I think that would have been the best when it comes to polygamy.

John Dehlin [01:58:55] 55 wives.

James Camacho [01:58:56] Okay. And then it was like, how many children?

John Dehlin [01:59:01] I'll Google it. Right now it looks like 57 children.

James Camacho [01:59:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:59:05] So two more children than wives.

James Camacho [01:59:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:59:07] And that is an important thing for a math person. Why?

James Camacho [01:59:11] Yeah, it's important because, like, the apologetics I'd been told for so long is polygamy, especially Brigham Young's time, was because they didn't have enough men around. They needed to raise up seed. This is also in the DNC by what it says.

John Dehlin [01:59:26] What?

James Camacho [01:59:27] What?

John Dehlin [01:59:27] Say it again.

James Camacho [01:59:28] Like, polygamy is only justified in special times when the Lord says so just

John Dehlin [01:59:33] to raise up a righteous posterity. Raise up a righteous posterity.

James Camacho [01:59:36] I think they use the word seed. I'm not certain. Anyway, righteous seed.

John Dehlin [01:59:40] That's in the Book of Mormon.

James Camacho [01:59:42] No, no, that's in the DNC and the Book of Mormon. It directly contradicts this. But that's another issue.

John Dehlin [01:59:49] I mean, the Book of Mormon says that a man should have one wife. Unless I, the Lord, want to raise up a righteous seed. I think.

James Camacho [01:59:56] No. No, it doesn't. In the Book of Mormon, it says David and Solomon having polygamous wives was an abomination to the Lord. In the dnc, it says David and Solomon having multiple wives was justified by the Lord to raise up righteous seed.

John Dehlin [02:00:13] Okay, all right. I mean, maybe I'm a little bit rusty. So I'm looking up Jacob, Jacob, chapter two. That's the big quote. And it says, wherefore, my brethren, hear me and hearken to the word of the Lord, for there shall be not any man among you, save it be one wife and concubine shall ye have none. For if I will, saith the Lord of hosts, raise up seed unto me. I will command my people, otherwise they shall hearken unto Jesus.

James Camacho [02:00:41] You're right.

John Dehlin [02:00:42] It's no big deal. Yeah, but. But I think the point you were trying to make is the Book of Mormon is saying it's about seed, it's about children.

James Camacho [02:00:50] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:00:50] So if Brigham Young's having one wife per. One child per wife, it's obviously not that bad. Yeah, yeah.

James Camacho [02:00:57] Like, my mom had five children, so like you would expect. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:01:03] And that's actually mathematically true. Polygamous marriages. They've done analyses. Polygamous Mormon marriages in the 19th century yielded less children per wife than non polygamous marriages.

James Camacho [02:01:18] Yeah, right. Yeah. So polygamy wasn't a big issue, because I don't think it was brought up in that manner. But if I did know that, I would have been like, wow, that actually is a huge issue.

John Dehlin [02:01:28] What about evolution? Age of the earth, Noah's ark, science stuff?

James Camacho [02:01:34] I think the apologetics were a little stronger there. Okay, so. Okay, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:01:39] So for you, the big ones were. And even if. Even if subsequent Mormon prophets after Joseph Smith never claimed to have seen God face to face, Joseph Smith did. What did you do with that?

James Camacho [02:01:53] Oh, I'm just like, he was a con man.

John Dehlin [02:01:56] Whoa. And what made you arrive at that conclusion about Joseph Smith?

James Camacho [02:01:59] Oh, because, like, obviously Muhammad was a con man, not just a con man. He did so much worse than that. And this has happened for so many different religions, so obviously that's what had to have happened with Joseph Smith.

John Dehlin [02:02:13] So if there's hundreds or thousands of other men or women who claim to have seen God, why is Joseph any different than all the others? They can't all be true. So maybe they're all false. Yeah, well, there's the option that one's true and the rest are false.

James Camacho [02:02:27] Yeah, yeah, but like, Joseph Smith. It's so much easier with Joseph Smith to dismiss him compared to, like, other supposed prophets. Because he went to court over treasure digging. He sacrificed a pig to try to find treasure or dog or something.

John Dehlin [02:02:48] Yeah, yeah.

James Camacho [02:02:49] Like, it's just so much easier when.

John Dehlin [02:02:53] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you're studying this stuff your senior year of high school?

James Camacho [02:03:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:03:01] And are you bringing these issues to your parents? I mean, your dad's a BYU professor. He's super smart. Your mom's super orthodox. Why wouldn't you want to talk to your parents about all this?

James Camacho [02:03:10] So, I mean, like, occasionally we would just, like, talk about deep doctrine, and it was like, In a very pro church way.

John Dehlin [02:03:18] But theoretically, your parents should be your safest people on the planet to talk about your doubts and questions about the church?

James Camacho [02:03:27] No, like from as early as I can remember, like, I would always just keep my own thoughts to myself because

John Dehlin [02:03:32] they weren't safe to talk about.

James Camacho [02:03:34] Yeah, I mean, like, obviously what happened when I told them I was considering not going on a mission right away, that was just like one thing. But like, in general, I didn't feel too safe going to them, talking, talking about girls, talking about anything.

John Dehlin [02:03:49] So certainly not religious truth claims.

James Camacho [02:03:51] Certainly not religious truth claims.

John Dehlin [02:03:53] Okay, so you kept that to yourself?

James Camacho [02:03:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:03:56] And then did you.

Margi Dehlin [02:03:57] Were you able to talk to anyone about it? Did you have anyone to talk to?

James Camacho [02:04:01] I had this ex Mormon friend who I could talk to and that was like, about it.

John Dehlin [02:04:06] And was she into this stuff? Were these intellectual issues part of why she left?

James Camacho [02:04:12] Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:04:12] Oh, okay.

James Camacho [02:04:13] Yeah, she was very smart.

John Dehlin [02:04:15] So in your parents mind, she led you out of the church?

James Camacho [02:04:18] Oh, absolutely. My parents absolutely didn't like her. Like, wow. Yeah, they said lots of bad things about her even before I left. Even before, like I was seriously doubting.

John Dehlin [02:04:31] Well, would they be true that she led you out of the church?

James Camacho [02:04:33] No.

John Dehlin [02:04:34] Why not?

James Camacho [02:04:34] Because, like, almost all the issues she brought up I already had seen at some point, but just had like the apologetics, I would say, like, not feeling like I was crazy for having questions. Like that's what she contributed and also like pushing me to actually think about these things for myself and be a little more critical.

John Dehlin [02:04:57] So she normalized doubts and questions and she encouraged you to think for yourself.

James Camacho [02:05:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:05:04] And in that way she was evil from your parents perspective?

James Camacho [02:05:10] I don't think they even really know about that. They just noticed like that she had boyfriends in high school and she dyed her hair once and like stuff like this. That's what did it like. Okay. Actually one of my best friends who still believes in Mormonism, like, they also don't like her, but like, she's literally one of the best Mormon girls I know. They don't like her because she had like a boyfriend in high school. So it's like their bar for not liking people was pretty low.

John Dehlin [02:05:43] Yeah. Okay, so I guess you concluded was there like this moment where you concluded it wasn't true. And can you tell us like, that moment?

The Moment Faith Collapsed

James Camacho [02:05:53] Yeah, the moment is I looked up. So I found this one very pro Mormon site that was talking about, look at all of these prophets who have seen and talked with God. This prophet, this, did this prophet, did this prophet did blah, blah, blah. This prophet maybe when he said like, something like, I have an apostolic witness.

James Camacho [02:06:13] So, like, it's like he's like something like 10 maybes, three nos, and like, two for sures. Or something like this and like, or like, three for sures. One of the for sures is like, Lorenzo Snow, which I saw actually wasn't true. One of the other ones was actually, like, in a dream. I'm like, yeah, no, because, like, just like a couple of months ago, I dreamed about some computer science problem. I'm like, yeah, I think dreams don't count. Yeah, dreams don't count.

James Camacho [02:06:40] So basically when I saw this, I'm like, wow, this is a very pro Mormon site. And it basically is proving to me that no prophet has seen God or has even claimed to see God since Joseph Smith. And so at that moment, I'm like, okay, this is the last reason I had for believing. And it's not true. So I'm done. It's not true.

John Dehlin [02:07:05] Yeah.

James Camacho [02:07:05] So when that moment hit, like, I just, like, started crying. I'd gone back from cross country practice a little bit ago, so I went and took a shower. I was just, like, crying the whole time in the shower. I couldn't stop. So I just, like, shut off all emotion, which I knew how to do practice. So I shut off all emotion for, like, about a month. Usually I would just do that for like a couple minutes when I was angry at someone. But, you know, being angry is a sin. But like, it was about a month because I'm like, I can't cry constantly. And like, about a week later, I'm like, okay, maybe I'll be fine. So I started loosening up during cross country practice, but then I started crying again. So I'm just like, yeah, no. So for like, basically a month, I didn't feel any emotion.

John Dehlin [02:08:00] You shut it all off?

James Camacho [02:08:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:08:02] Yeah. Because do you. Do you have a sense for why you were blocking that off?

James Camacho [02:08:07] Yeah, because I didn't want to just, like, cry a bunch when I had things to do.

John Dehlin [02:08:12] Wow. So you just packed it all down?

James Camacho [02:08:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:08:15] And then did that build up?

James Camacho [02:08:17] No, didn't build up. Slowly got better. Then I got angry at the church.

John Dehlin [02:08:24] What were you angry about?

James Camacho [02:08:26] Angry about, like, all the missed opportunities, all the lies, all the indoctrination. Like, so many lessons in seminary about how to arrive at truth, which were just so wrong and kept me in this cult for so much longer than, like, I could have been.

John Dehlin [02:08:43] So what was wrong about the way the church taught you to arrive at truth.

Margi Dehlin [02:08:47] Yeah.

James Camacho [02:08:48] So in seminary they said when you have questions, you should ask from a faithful perspective, you should seek only divine sources, which means, like, no anti Mormon sources. You should talk to your bishop, your parents, the scriptures, God. You shouldn't ever be looking at any other sources that will not tell you that the church is true. Basically, the entire way you're supposed to seek for truth has only one conclusion that you can possibly arrive at, and that is the church is true.

John Dehlin [02:09:23] What's scientifically invalid about asking for confirmation that it is true? I mean, like, have you studied about the null hypothesis and the bases of science?

James Camacho [02:09:36] There's one thing is like, if something can't be disproven, then it has no. It doesn't add any information into your life. So, like, that's a big issue. That's more of a rationality thing than a scientific perspective. From a more scientific perspective, it's like, you should seek the evidence first and come to the conclusions later. And the church is like, you already have the conclusion. Now you need to seek only evidence

John Dehlin [02:10:02] that aligns with that conclusion and someone who's scientifically minded.

James Camacho [02:10:07] And like, my mind was so distorted because I was trying to follow that, because I thought it was a sin to even read stuff that was anti Mormon.

John Dehlin [02:10:16] Yeah.

James Camacho [02:10:17] Or I wouldn't even classify as anti Mormon. Just read stuff that was neutral. Like I thought the Wikipedia articles on Mormonism were wrong to read because they weren't completely pro Mormon.

John Dehlin [02:10:30] So then once you're willing to say, is this epistemology valid? Is this way I'm being taught to determine truth valid? You're willing to ask yourself that question. You start applying the logic.

James Camacho [02:10:43] No, no, no, no.

John Dehlin [02:10:44] And the science.

James Camacho [02:10:44] No, no. I didn't start doing that until I had already come to the conclusion the church wasn't true. If the church is true, and then I somehow get tricked and led away by anti Mormon sources, wouldn't that be awful? Yeah, so I didn't. I only would look at pro Mormon sources.

John Dehlin [02:10:58] Right. But now I'm. Now I'm fast forwarding back to the time where you felt anger.

James Camacho [02:11:04] Okay, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:11:04] You said you felt anger because of the way the Church taught you to determine truth.

James Camacho [02:11:10] So, yeah, so then I would look. Then I found, like, read an ex Mormon. I actually investigated a lot more of the history. I'm like, okay, wow, there's so much more I didn't know. I only had the very surface level. And even then I thought that was like the big questions. And so like, now I'm like, wow, there's so much more wrong I didn't even know.

John Dehlin [02:11:34] Such as?

James Camacho [02:11:35] Such as all right. For example, with blacks in the priesthood. I thought this was some. I thought it was a priesthood ban because church members were racist. Then when I found ex Mormon Reddit, I learned it wasn't just a priesthood ban. It was, they weren't allowed to get saving ordinances in the temple.

James Camacho [02:11:53] I also learned that I found the quotes by Brigham Young that it's because of the mark of Cain, they won't until the very last. They will be the very last people to ever receive the priesthood. I found letters the First Presidency wrote in the 1900s saying, no, this is doctrine. Absolutely. I thought it wasn't doctrine. Well, I was iffy. I wasn't sure if it was doctrine or not.

James Camacho [02:12:17] Yeah. And then, like, this also helped a lot when it came to. When it came to LGBT issues, because I would say I was absolutely homophobic when I was in the church because that's what I was taught. The family proclamation, whatever.

James Camacho [02:12:33] But, like, being able to come out in realizing how wrong the prophets were about blacks in the priesthood. This was actually even before I realized Mormonism was false. I started wondering, like, wait a second, what if they were wrong about black people not being able to get the priesthood? What if they're wrong about gay people not being able to get married? But I didn't consider that too seriously. But once I actually left, I'm like, yeah, like, they actually were wrong about all of this.

John Dehlin [02:13:03] If they could be wrong about black people, they are almost certainly wrong about LGBT people.

James Camacho [02:13:07] I mean, like, once I left, I didn't even believe they had any authority to begin with. But, like, it definitely helped to know how wrong they were about all this stuff.

John Dehlin [02:13:17] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Did it bug you that they tried to shift their position to. With. With black people in the priesthood and saving ordinances? Well, we know it was really never doctrine to begin with.

James Camacho [02:13:31] That bugs me so much. I had a seminary teacher who. Who told me this. So this was when I was orthodox.

John Dehlin [02:13:36] And repeat it for the Never Mormons. What? What you were told.

James Camacho [02:13:39] Okay, so this was in 12th grade. I was still believing this was first semester in seminary. My seminary teacher said he was actually pretty intellectual. He tried a lot. And he brought up, we're going to have a day where I'm going to discuss some of the hard questions, like relaxing the priesthood. So he talked about this and he's like, this is a big issue. I'm not entirely sure what to say about this.

James Camacho [02:14:00] My best guess is that some early church leaders were just racist, and this is why it happened. And I said, no, that's not true. Like, I raised my hand like, no, that's not true. This was absolutely doctrine. And, like, if they're wrong about this, then how do we know they're not wrong about gay marriage? Like, I said this in seminary as a completely believing Mormon, and I was instantly like, everyone was against me in seminary. I'm like, whoa, is this what ex Mormons feel like every single day here in Utah?

Grief Over Missed Opportunities and Defective Epistemology

John Dehlin [02:14:32] What was everyone else saying?

James Camacho [02:14:33] Everyone's like, I don't even know what they were saying. But just like, comments like, no, you have to have faith in the prophets and you have to follow the prophets, and even if they're imperfect, the prophets may be imperfect, but the church is perfect. Stuff like this.

John Dehlin [02:14:52] So you were looking for logical consistency, and they were willing to break with logical consistency if it reinforced faith. So in your mind, if they got it wrong about black people and the priesthood and temple ordinances, then you can't trust them about LGBT people. What they wanted to say was, no, no, no, listen, they can be imperfect. They got it wrong about black people and the temple, but they certainly, because they're modern prophets, are getting it right about LGBT people.

James Camacho [02:15:22] Yeah. So.

John Dehlin [02:15:23] Right.

James Camacho [02:15:23] So I wasn't quite so against that, because I wasn't. I didn't know how doctrinal it was yet. I hadn't seen all this stuff on Exmormon that, like, actually proved that it was just as doctrinal as the Family Proclamation is now.

John Dehlin [02:15:37] The seminary teacher wasn't providing you with the evidence.

James Camacho [02:15:39] Yeah, no, no, no. I think actually he did pull up the Brigham Young quote.

John Dehlin [02:15:44] But what about the doctrinal assertions of the first presidency? Because the Mormon first presidency in the 20th century provided multiple doctrinal statements affirming the priesthood ban on black people.

James Camacho [02:15:54] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:15:55] So did he provide you with that?

James Camacho [02:15:56] Knew about this back then?

John Dehlin [02:15:57] He didn't provide you with that information?

James Camacho [02:15:58] Yeah, no, no. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:16:01] It's just, brother make mistakes.

James Camacho [02:16:02] Yeah. I'm not sure if he even was aware of this.

John Dehlin [02:16:05] Oh, okay.

James Camacho [02:16:06] Like, yeah, like, he was a seminary teacher, but, like, I don't think seminary teachers know that much more.

John Dehlin [02:16:12] But you had to go to ex Mormon Reddit to learn the truthful history about the Mormon church as a 12th grader in Utah. Right?

James Camacho [02:16:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:16:20] You're going to daily. I just want to make this point. You're going to daily religious instruction hour a day for four years of high school, and you weren't getting the factual Truthful history about the church. Correct.

James Camacho [02:16:35] My school actually was every other day. It had a block schedule. Yes, yes, yes. But yeah, for four to six hours a week, I was getting religious instruction and there was so much history I didn't even know.

John Dehlin [02:16:47] Yeah.

James Camacho [02:16:47] And I was actually like, this is one of. This was one of the reasons I didn't like seminary that much, especially ninth, 10th grades, is because I'm like, we're not learning anything in this. It's just the same platitudes over and over again.

John Dehlin [02:16:58] They're reinforcing faith. They're not actually educating. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you got super angry when you. When you realized that the church wasn't what you thought.

James Camacho [02:17:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:17:10] And you felt like it had wasted your time. How could you have. What different decisions would you have made earlier if you didn't believe the Mormon Church was true?

James Camacho [02:17:19] So first of all, one decision I am so glad I hadn't made yet was whether or not I was going to mit. This was before I had to commit. So that decision luckily did not change. But some decisions that could have changed. My parents, if we were not Mormon, would have stayed in New Mexico. I would have still had that community in high school. I would have, like, had many more friends then because I would have been in New Mexico. I had several friends. I had one friend who got into MIT from New Mexico. He ended up actually going to Stanford. But, like, I had lots of really smart friends there.

Margi Dehlin [02:17:54] Also.

John Dehlin [02:17:54] Your parents wouldn't have been telling you to stay away from non Mormons and ex Mormons, right?

James Camacho [02:17:59] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:17:59] And women and girls.

James Camacho [02:18:00] You know, I wouldn't have wasted so much time. I would have been able to date in high school. I'm certain I could have dated in high school. Yeah, well, yeah, there's also, like, so much mentally beating myself up for things that weren't even wrong. Like. Like wanting to kiss girls isn't wrong,

Margi Dehlin [02:18:21] but yeah, as it turns out.

James Camacho [02:18:23] Yeah, you would know.

John Dehlin [02:18:25] And if somebody says, well, dating in high school just will get you into trouble, what would you say about this?

James Camacho [02:18:30] That I would say that, like, for lots of kids, that absolutely can be a waste of time or, like, get you into trouble. But I was always a very mature kid and like, I could have dated in high school and been responsible, but yeah.

John Dehlin [02:18:50] Yeah. Okay, so lots of wasted time slash decisions that you would have made differently

James Camacho [02:18:59] and opportunities I missed.

John Dehlin [02:19:02] Yeah. Missed opportunities.

James Camacho [02:19:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:19:04] Okay. So there's that, there's the defective epistemology and then there's just. You said feeling deceived.

James Camacho [02:19:13] Yeah. I feel like the defective epistemology is actually really, really bad because, like, I'd spent so long trying to train my rigor and then like this huge, glaring hole in rigor because of the church, like, and all the mental twisting I had to do. Yeah, yeah. It just made it so much harder to think clearly.

John Dehlin [02:19:37] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You, I mean, you said what you loved about math and science was that it helped you understand reality.

James Camacho [02:19:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:19:47] So you, you're caring about math and physics and even chemistry and others because it's helping you understand the real world. Yet the most prominent and important part of your life, which is your religion, seems to be distorting your reality by withholding information and teaching you to understand reality in an. In a distorted, ineffective.

James Camacho [02:20:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:20:12] Way. Is that right?

James Camacho [02:20:13] Yeah. I'd also say, like, some things Mormonism taught, like, affected my life in a bad way. For example, I feel like I was a lot more horny as a teenager because of Mormonism because, like, because like one, I couldn't date, but like, I wanted to kind of like I got to the point where like, I convinced myself I didn't actually want to date, but also like the constant pressure to get married young. So I felt like, like I remember thinking as an 18 year old, like, I should be getting married soon. Maybe like, don't go to mission on a mission, but like go to college and get married in a year or two. Like, that was my thoughts because plenty of girls do this. It's less common among guys, but like most guys still are getting married like 22, 23. In Mormonism and girls, it's like 18, 19, 20.

John Dehlin [02:20:56] Yeah, yeah.

James Camacho [02:20:58] Like, I had a friend who went to BYU a year older than me, so I was still in high school and she was telling me how like half of her freshman class was married. Not, it's probably wasn't actually half, but like a huge number. People in her dorms are just like leaving to go into the married dorms. I'm like, wow.

John Dehlin [02:21:14] Yeah. Yeah.

James Camacho [02:21:16] And I'm like, well, that's what I should want to do. And so that's why I started wanting to do. Which not good, right?

John Dehlin [02:21:25] Yeah. Okay, so, wow, you suppressed your emotions. Then you started feeling angry, but you still hadn't told your parents, right?

James Camacho [02:21:35] Still hadn't. No, no, no. So I think I did tell my parents very soon after I lost my faith. In fact, I'm not actually sure. Maybe I've mixed up my timeline with when I told them I didn't want to serve a mission and I left the church. Because it might have been when I left the church. I told them, and that's when I felt pressured to tell them instead of when I was using. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:22:00] So.

James Camacho [02:22:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:22:01] Have you.

James Camacho [02:22:03] It might have been then.

Coming Out as Non-Believing to Family

John Dehlin [02:22:04] So tell us what you haven't told us about the story. So you telling them you're not serving a mission, that sounds like a big thing, so.

James Camacho [02:22:12] Oh, okay. So actually, I'm not entirely sure how that happened, but let's see.

Margi Dehlin [02:22:20] Do you think telling him about the mission part was tied to your.

James Camacho [02:22:26] Here's what it is. I think when I first told them. Well, I said earlier about, like, when I told them I was questioning a mission, this was actually. That didn't happen. I think I told them, I questioned, like, is a mission the right thing in front of them? But, like, they never said anything about that. It's when I left the church, and then I ended up telling them that I didn't want to serve a mission. I didn't believe in the church anymore or I don't think I believe in the church anymore. I think I was a lot less certain until I'd, like, read more history.

James Camacho [02:22:53] I was pretty sure, but, like, not super certain. Let's see. So I felt, like, a little pressured in that conversation. Not too much. My mom got mad at me. She, like, immediately went to tell my brother, my twin brother, like, do not talk to James anymore. So basically for like, a month, we

John Dehlin [02:23:12] didn't talk to each other in high school.

James Camacho [02:23:13] This was in high school, senior year.

John Dehlin [02:23:15] So your twin brother, your mom tells your twin brother not to talk to you anymore. Is that right?

James Camacho [02:23:20] Yeah. I don't know if she said explicitly, don't talk to him anymore, but I don't know what she said. But this is what Joseph said. It was something like this. James is an evil ex Mormon was the vibe. So Joseph knew this for about a month. But I had gotten my parents to promise they wouldn't actually talk to other people about this because I wanted it to be personal, this conversation. And so it was like.

John Dehlin [02:23:47] So you sat them down and said, what?

James Camacho [02:23:49] So we were in their room sitting down talking about this. I'm like, okay, I want you guys to not talk to others about this because it's kind of private.

John Dehlin [02:23:59] And you told them what you just said.

James Camacho [02:24:00] Mom and dad, I'm not sure I believe in the church anymore. I don't want to go on a mission. Stuff like that.

John Dehlin [02:24:06] As a senior in high school. Yeah, that's something no Mormon parents ever want to hear.

James Camacho [02:24:10] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:24:12] And did they cry Were they angry?

James Camacho [02:24:15] So my mom was a little angry, but my dad was a very calming presence. He's like, calm down. I think my dad was disappointed. He took it pretty well, though. I got them to both promise to keep it private, but they didn't. My mom went and immediately told my brother, told him to avoid me. Huge breach of trust.

James Camacho [02:24:41] So, yeah. Anyway, so my twin brother kind of like, knows this, but isn't supposed. But she's like, don't tell James I told you this. So not saying anything about it, but he does treat me a little differently. About a month later, Joseph's deciding, like, okay, I need to actually figure out if I'm going to mit. He also has the same decision. Right.

James Camacho [02:25:07] So he pulls me aside, he's like, hey, James, I want you to tell me all the reasons Mormonism isn't true or why you don't believe. So I told him this. We had, I don't know, 10, 15 minute discussion. And he's like, okay, yeah, it's not true.

James Camacho [02:25:24] It was just like that. Once he had someone he could actually talk to about these issues, someone he could actually trust to have good epistemics. Because, like, I was like, I was winning math competitions with him. He. He knew I was pretty logical and smart about this stuff.

John Dehlin [02:25:43] And maybe the top five things you would have told him would have been what?

James Camacho [02:25:46] I think I told him. Book of Abraham, DNA evidence and anachronisms.

John Dehlin [02:25:52] In the Book of Mormon.

James Camacho [02:25:53] In the Book of Mormon polygamy. And then, yes, stuff like that.

John Dehlin [02:25:58] Okay.

James Camacho [02:25:59] I don't know.

John Dehlin [02:25:59] Treasure digging. Joseph's treasure digging.

James Camacho [02:26:01] Probably not that. Maybe I might have talked about Joseph Smith's polygamy. How he married like 20 wives before Emma.

John Dehlin [02:26:07] Yeah. And what about the, I guess, prophets? Not seeing God. Would you have mentioned that to him?

James Camacho [02:26:12] I think so too.

John Dehlin [02:26:12] Okay.

James Camacho [02:26:13] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:26:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:26:13] Okay.

James Camacho [02:26:14] So I just like sped, run through them.

John Dehlin [02:26:16] And he got it in 15 minutes.

James Camacho [02:26:18] Got it in 15 minutes. He'd been a lot more. He never been as into the church as I was. So, like, yeah, I definitely had scrupulosity. I think he might have had a little, but much less. Even when he was like 7,

John Dehlin [02:26:42] he

James Camacho [02:26:42] tried to apply Moroni's promise and it didn't come. So starting from then, he'd always been a little more hesitant to say the church is true.

John Dehlin [02:26:49] So if this guy's. If this guy, this brother's your twin.

James Camacho [02:26:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:26:53] And for months and months and months, you're going through this harrowing experience of deconstructing Mormonism, questioning its validity because so Many twins are, like, almost joined at the hip in terms of their. What they. How they spend their time together, what they do, how close they are. You would think you would have been talking to your twin brother about this all the way along.

James Camacho [02:27:16] I tried to keep personal matters outside of family, so also, like, my twin and I weren't super close because, like, he had done a little better in math competitions than me. I think I was jealous. And then also, like, I don't know, in 9th and 10th grades, he was, like, very close to me, but, like, I wanted to make friends with other people, and so I felt like he was stopping me because he was, like, always, like, tied to me.

John Dehlin [02:27:46] So you had to kind of break away from him a little bit to make other friends.

James Camacho [02:27:49] Yeah. So in high school, we weren't super close.

John Dehlin [02:27:52] Okay. Yeah. All right. So once he. Wow. But then I'm sure once you tell Joseph about what you've Learned, and in 15 minutes, he concludes the church isn't true. Now you're really worried about what your mom, maybe your parents are going to think and feel.

James Camacho [02:28:14] Oh, no. It was actually very nice because, like, I didn't actually talk to them about ex Mormonism at all, but now I had someone I could talk to about this and we could laugh and make jokes together about bring them young, stuff like that. So it was very nice. But my parents got, like, really mad.

John Dehlin [02:28:35] They did?

Margi Dehlin [02:28:36] Yeah.

James Camacho [02:28:36] My dad's like, you need to stop disrespecting our religion in our house.

John Dehlin [02:28:40] Oh, you would make jokes about Mormon

James Camacho [02:28:43] in the family rooms, and we just make jokes like this.

Margi Dehlin [02:28:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:28:46] To a Mormon parent, that's like, apostasy. Your kids are apostatizing. You know, they would say, there's a dark spirit here. You're mocking our sacred things.

James Camacho [02:28:56] They say, like, you need to stop mocking us in our religion. I think one time we pulled up their temple names because, like, it's the same name for every single person. Just on the day of the month,

John Dehlin [02:29:05] whatever date they went through the temple, they would have been assigned those temple names. So you were able to figure out your. Your parents temple names. That's supposed to be secret and no one's supposed to know. So you told your parents you knew their temple names?

James Camacho [02:29:18] Yeah, yeah. And they got, like, pretty bad about that.

John Dehlin [02:29:21] Oh, my gosh.

James Camacho [02:29:23] Well, yeah, but, like, we committed to mit. We're like, yeah, we can't go to BYU anymore. So we're like, we just. We're going to be gone in a couple months. We don't care too much. And like, they weren't even really willing to sit down and talk to us about this stuff. So, like, we're just going to talk to each other and who really cares?

James Camacho [02:29:45] So we grew a lot closer. We bonded over ex Mormonism, kind of. Yeah. So my older brother got back from his mission that summer, summer before we left mit. And honestly, he wasn't that much different than when he left on his mission. I felt like when people go on a mission, they're supposed to grow. This is what I was taught. You grow so much.

James Camacho [02:30:08] But he got back and he didn't seem any more mature. And also he thought very, very poorly of us because he'd known we were ex Mormon now, so we didn't get along too great that summer. And like, yeah, he also got mad because we were making fun of his faith.

James Camacho [02:30:32] But honestly, like, yes, we were making fun of it a little, but, like, it was to each other and we could have been a lot more disrespectful if we really wanted. And they weren't very respectful to us either. Like, they completely refused to talk to us.

John Dehlin [02:30:46] Yeah. Like, the believing mentality is that making jokes are amount to, like, sacrilege and disrespect. But if you're feeling downpowered and alone and isolated, humor can be a way of coping and processing and even reprogramming your brain emotionally.

James Camacho [02:31:09] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:31:10] And so it comes across as evil and disrespectful. But I wonder if that's a way to shame you and keep you from doing the processing that you need to do. Does that make sense? It's not that you want to be mean and disrespectful.

James Camacho [02:31:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:31:26] But you're just a couple kids trying to figure out your lives. Right.

James Camacho [02:31:29] We're just saying it to each other to have fun.

John Dehlin [02:31:32] Yeah.

James Camacho [02:31:32] And like, yes, the process, like, it didn't really have much to do with them, but they took it very personally.

John Dehlin [02:31:39] You weren't trying to mock and disrespect them, or were you?

James Camacho [02:31:43] I think I didn't care if I mocked or disrespected them.

John Dehlin [02:31:45] Their beliefs.

James Camacho [02:31:46] Their beliefs. Sorry, not them. Their beliefs. Yes.

John Dehlin [02:31:49] So I guess there's always the position that some beliefs are so absurd or harmful they're worthy of disrespect.

James Camacho [02:31:56] So that is my current opinion, that they are so absurd and disrespectful. And if you don't fight back against it, it's like acknowledging that it is okay to have those beliefs, but when it really isn't. Like, it's keeping people in the bubble when they shouldn't be. Like, for example, I have a cousin, we had a family, a wedding.

James Camacho [02:32:20] So he's like 14, he's from out of state, so from Colorado. But he's never met an ex Mormon somehow. And he's like, see, he's. So he asked me, yeah, I've never met an ex Mormon, but I've heard you guys are ex Mormon. Like, why do you believe that way? And I was just shocked. And like, you've never met an ex Mormon and not only do you not live in Utah, but like, you're 14 years old, a sophomore in high school. Like, and this was true for my life too. Like, and it's because there's this shield that Mormons have when like, you're not allowed to talk badly about their faith when their faith is bad.

John Dehlin [02:32:57] And when you say Mormon faith is bad, what do you mean?

James Camacho [02:32:59] I mean it is hurting people to teach them that faith because, like, it makes it harder for them to think properly. Like, for a time I was doubting evolution because of this Mormon faith.

John Dehlin [02:33:13] And if somebody says, well, evolution's bad and it's okay to doubt that, like, what's wrong with a faith that persuades people to not have faithless thoughts?

James Camacho [02:33:27] Yeah, it's because there's so many other issues that because of that the religion tries to enforce. Like, for example, the Mormon Church. I learned this from ex Mormon Reddit. The Mormon Church spent a ton of money advertising against. For. For Prop 8 in California.

Margi Dehlin [02:33:46] Right.

John Dehlin [02:33:46] To fight same sex marriage in California. Yeah.

James Camacho [02:33:49] And like, I myself was homophobic because of the Mormon faith.

John Dehlin [02:33:52] Yeah.

James Camacho [02:33:53] And like so many other small things. Like, actually, I don't know if he even counts as small, not being able to date, like so many other things that personally wronged me. But like, I had it good compared to most people. I am a straight white male in Mormonism. Like that. And like, I was top of my class. Like, that's one of the best situations to be. And even then I felt hurt by Mormonism. Like, imagine being queer or maybe a

John Dehlin [02:34:18] woman or a person of color. Right? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So you and your brother both leave the church. Do you stop attending and does your ward care?

James Camacho [02:34:32] Okay. So we decided to keep the peace and attend that summer your homeward.

John Dehlin [02:34:40] Our homeward prior to mit.

James Camacho [02:34:42] Prior to mit, yes, it was. We were. There was a very obvious change in personality though. Like, I remember how I was mad at people being on their phones. I was that guy on my phone all during Sunday school precept quorum because I Don't care about this. Like, stop. It's not meaningful.

Margi Dehlin [02:35:01] Turns out it has its function.

John Dehlin [02:35:03] Phones have their advantages at church once you no longer believe.

James Camacho [02:35:07] Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:35:11] But you and your brother kept attending to keep the peace.

James Camacho [02:35:14] Yeah. So I was actually second counselor. Right. In Freestorm at the time. I was second counselor for about two months. Wow. Ex Mormon. And that was like a little. Very much imposter syndrome, I think I had actually give, like a short talk on. In a combined fifth word thing on missionary work.

Margi Dehlin [02:35:33] Oh, wow.

James Camacho [02:35:35] Which was. So I was actually very glad because it was like all the youth. Not all the youth. Like, several of the youth were giving short couple minute snippets. I was very glad. The person before me took like 15 minutes. So I only had, like two minutes to talk. So I just said something like, missionary service is serving other people. Even if you just, like, go on a run with someone who's feeling lonely. That's missionary service.

John Dehlin [02:35:59] Yeah. Define it broadly. Did you ever have that interview with your bishop where he's like, why aren't you serving a mission kind of thing?

James Camacho [02:36:06] So I did have it. It was actually. I was going to get my temple recommend interview schedule. It. I'm just like, yeah, I'm not getting a temple recommend. But why were you.

John Dehlin [02:36:15] Why was that even coming up? Were you asking for a temple recommend?

James Camacho [02:36:18] Is it expired? No, because the bishop and the councils just try to make sure all the youth have temple recommendations.

John Dehlin [02:36:25] Have current temple recommendations.

Margi Dehlin [02:36:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:36:26] So yours was expiring.

James Camacho [02:36:27] Yeah. And my bishop had interviews every six months with all the youth. So mine was expiring or had expired. I wasn't going to renew it, but I did decide I'll just go and tell the bishop, yeah, I'm not doing this anymore.

John Dehlin [02:36:43] How'd that go?

James Camacho [02:36:45] It was really good. He's super nice. He's like, yeah, lots of youth have been saying similar things.

John Dehlin [02:36:53] He was just a youth leaving the church. I mean, there's a perception that the youth in 2023 are hemorrhaging out of the Mormon Church.

James Camacho [02:37:01] They absolutely are.

John Dehlin [02:37:03] So can you speak to. We're talking in Provo or Orem, Utah. Like Utah county in the shadow of byu. Can you talk about that?

James Camacho [02:37:14] Yeah, sure. So in my ward, we had somewhere around 25 priests supposedly in priest quorum. Usually 10, maybe 15 on a good day, would show up actually to priest quorum in terms of missions. Maybe then 3 to 5 would go on a mission each year.

John Dehlin [02:37:31] What the. So you're saying around half of your priests in your Ward were even attending church.

James Camacho [02:37:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:37:39] And of the 25 priest age men, young men, two to three actually ended up serving missions in Provo.

James Camacho [02:37:48] I would say 3 to 5. 3 to 5.

John Dehlin [02:37:50] 3 to 5 in Provo, Utah.

James Camacho [02:37:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:37:53] So what's that? You're a math guy. Five out of 25.

James Camacho [02:37:56] Well, no, no, because prescorm has two and a half years. Right. Of people. So.

John Dehlin [02:38:01] So what percentage. What if you had to estimate what percentage of young Mormon men from Provo were serving missions?

James Camacho [02:38:09] Maybe 25 to 30%.

John Dehlin [02:38:11] That seems super. I mean if that, if it's low in Provo and Orem, how is it going to be outside of Utah County?

James Camacho [02:38:17] Yeah. One thing though, like lots of people would go a semester after college. Okay. But I think I'm counting these in these numbers and then this. I think my word is also a lot more liberal. So among my friend group, a lot more went on missions. It's either you became an ex Mormon or you didn't, or you went on a mission.

John Dehlin [02:38:37] But you're seeing a lot of kids in Utah just Mormon kids, raised Mormon, faithful parents just choosing not to serve missions.

James Camacho [02:38:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:38:46] More are not serving that are serving.

James Camacho [02:38:49] Let's see, let me think about this. It's more of the people who end up not serving missions disappear from church like six months beforehand.

John Dehlin [02:39:00] They just peace out.

James Camacho [02:39:00] So I don't see see them not going on missions. They just disappear.

John Dehlin [02:39:05] Yeah, yeah. And probably they don't want to deal with all the social backlash. Right.

James Camacho [02:39:10] Also, it's become so much more acceptable for people to come home from their missions early, which is so good. Like there's this one guy on my cross country team who actually was in my ward as well, who came home after like six months or so. And like everyone on the cross country team is like, hey, it's good to have you back. Same for like another guy on my cross country team. Honestly, I don't even know why he went on a mission in the first place because he sounded extremely nuanced and like he was more there to have an experience than like to go teach people the gospel. Because he didn't seem like the gospel wasn't like a super important part of his life.

John Dehlin [02:39:50] So it'd be social pressure, right?

James Camacho [02:39:52] Yeah, I think it's absolutely social pressure.

John Dehlin [02:39:54] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So you almost were in the majority by telling your bishop you you weren't going to serve. He was used to it.

James Camacho [02:40:06] Yeah, yeah. He said a lot of youth have been saying similar things. I don't know about majority because I did know I would say an approaching majority. Like.

John Dehlin [02:40:20] Yeah, yeah. Okay.

James Camacho [02:40:22] Because I don't know. Close there. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:40:26] I would just say, growing up in Katy, Texas, in the 80s, a majority of the young Mormon men, you know, would go to BYU and then go serve missions, for sure. A clear majority.

James Camacho [02:40:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:40:38] And that. It sounds like it's not a clear majority in Utah in 2023.

James Camacho [02:40:43] I remember in seminary, so 9th and 10th grades, they didn't say anything. In 11th and 12th grades, they say, you need to bring your friends to seminary because, like, we don't have as many people. We have something like 2,000 students at Tempu, but only, like, a thousand come to seminary. And this happened, like, in 11th and 12th grades. So I think, like, in just those years, it dropped significantly.

John Dehlin [02:41:07] And do you have a sense for. Is it similar stuff to you and your brother, why people are peacing out?

James Camacho [02:41:12] Probably. Also. Probably lots of parents are leaving, and so, like.

John Dehlin [02:41:17] Yeah, you're seeing that, too.

James Camacho [02:41:20] I don't know if I'm seeing that too, but, like, I had. There's one girl in my orchestra who. Who said her parents left when she was, like, 9 or 10, so. And they're probably just gonna keep increasing.

John Dehlin [02:41:34] Yeah.

James Camacho [02:41:34] Either the children or the parents. And the whole family leaving.

John Dehlin [02:41:37] Yeah. So by the time you and your brother are planning to move to Cambridge, what's your relationship like with your parents?

James Camacho [02:41:46] Like, we don't talk very much. It's not too much different. Like, we didn't even talk that much when we were Mormon because, like, they spent. They. They spent a lot more focus on my younger brother. He had, like, medical issues going on, so their focus was on him. See. So, yeah, it didn't change too much.

Margi Dehlin [02:42:11] So for you, really, the real change, it sounds like, was that you got closer to your brother.

James Camacho [02:42:17] Yeah, so my twin brother got a lot closer. We roomed together at mit.

John Dehlin [02:42:22] In the dorms.

James Camacho [02:42:23] In the dorms. It was good. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:42:29] Do your parents have to pay for MIT or.

James Camacho [02:42:33] So MIT doesn't do academic scholarships. It does do financial aid, and because our family has lots of children, like a Mormon family does. So we have three kids in college. Right. Me, Joseph, and my older brother. So financial aid was very generous.

John Dehlin [02:42:51] Okay. So you're able to afford MIT even if your parents aren't supportive of you going. And did you. Did they make it clear that they were unhappy that you made that choice?

James Camacho [02:43:01] My mom was very unhappy, but she couldn't do anything about it. My dad said he was very disappointed and very sad, and he's grieving that we Left the church, which. He said something like this. This was over a phone call while we were at mit.

James Camacho [02:43:21] I'm grieving that you guys left the church, and it hurts a lot, and I'm very sad about it. But, like, I know that you're hurting more. And the truth is, like, that's not. I'm not hurting more. I'm not sad that I left Mormonism. I'm very happy that I got out just in the nick of time to go to mit.

James Camacho [02:43:38] And, like, I may be angry, I may be hurt, but, like, I'm not sad anymore. I was sad for a bit when my whole reality turned out to be false. But, like, that was long in the past. But, like, I know my parents are still very sad that their children aren't Mormon anymore.

John Dehlin [02:43:55] I mean, years ago, I coined the idea that, like, a kid can cure cancer and win the Nobel Peace Prize, but they'll still be a disappointment to their Mormon parents if they leave the church. And you could. You already resonated with that.

James Camacho [02:44:11] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:44:11] But, like, how many parents in the United States who have decent educations or not would be thrilled to have their not just one kid, but two kids in the same year go to mit? And yet, instead of your parents just being grateful and ecstatic, what's it like to have your parents be disappointed that you and your brother are at the top university in the world for math?

James Camacho [02:44:34] It's like, it's very. I don't know, we don't talk that much anymore because stuff like that. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:44:44] And what's it like that a religion would come between parents and their kids who are succeeding in life? That just seems so odd. It's a sign of. You use the word cult. I don't like to use that word because sometimes it alienates people. I'm not saying you shouldn't. I'm just saying on this program, I tend to not try and use that word a lot because I don't want to offend the people we're trying to reach or impact. But the truth is, any organization that would make parents feel sad or ashamed about their own children when they're, like, seceding in life and it's driving a wedge between them and their children, I think that meets criteria for cult. I don't know.

James Camacho [02:45:26] Yeah, I agree. I think growing up, I was actually, I was very willing to listen to other people's opinions, as evidenced by, like, talking to this ex Mormon girl. Um, but when I left, I was surprised at how many people were unwilling to listen. And this includes my parents and I think now, I think that it's because Mormonism teaches people to not listen to ex Mormons. But, like, I never really. Somehow I never got that teaching. So I don't know.

Life at MIT, Atheism, and Post-Mormon Reconstruction

John Dehlin [02:45:59] So did you feel prepared? Like, I know that university life outside of a BYU school is very different than university life at a BYU school, whether it's drinking or co ed dorms or sex or just free thinking. Did you feel prepared for college?

James Camacho [02:46:18] Yeah. So before college, I actually went to two rationality camps. So have you heard of effective altruism? So these camps are run by people with similar thought. Like, effective altruism. Okay, let's see. Do you know, like, the rationality movement? Less wrong that that stuff?

John Dehlin [02:46:39] Is it kind of secular humanism stuff?

James Camacho [02:46:42] Yeah, that kind of stuff. Okay, so all that, like, is kind of like what these rational, like, rationality camps are about. And so there I met, like, lots of really smart people who are rational atheist. They could just talk about having girlfriends, boyfriends, drinking, and say, like, well, the benefits are is it helps you relax a little drinking, but like, obviously it hurts their mental state. So, like, several of them are like, yeah, I don't really like drinking, or I don't think I'm gonna. Like, one of them is like, yeah, I haven't ever drunk and I don't think I ever will get drunk. So stuff like this.

James Camacho [02:47:22] So, like, being able to, like, talk with a bunch of people who were really smart, had similar morals and values, but also, like, were atheist was very nice and good preparation for mit. So when I got to mit, like, I had already decided, like, yeah, I'm not gonna go to parties. I don't really like parties, stuff like that.

John Dehlin [02:47:50] So talk about that jump. Sounds like you made a jump to atheism. There's a lot of Christians who listen to Mormon stories that are like, hey, they're fine if you leave the Mormon Church, but don't throw God and Jesus away. What made you go to atheist once you lost your Mormonism?

James Camacho [02:48:06] Okay, so, like, if you are to believe in a God, you should have a reason for believing in a God. And I have seen no good reason to believe in a God of the Bible or God of any religion that exists on earth right now. In fact, one thing you could say is an explanation that involves God is far more complex than an explanation without God. For example, if you say God created the universe, then you say who created God. And so in general, there's not much of a reason to believe in God. Actually, sorry, there is. There's no evidence for God There aren't

John Dehlin [02:48:47] evidence based reasons to believe in God that you found.

James Camacho [02:48:51] Yes, yes, yes. Like you could say the Bible, but that's like circular reasoning. You could say the New Testament, but like those are written hundreds of years after the fact. And there's like so much that didn't get into the New Testament, which anyways. Yeah. So like there's no reason to believe in a God. And just Mormonism is like a great religion to come out of because then you're like, well obviously then Islam happened in a similar way to Mormonism. You had some con man, Muhammad who like just went and conquered a bunch of people and said like my religion or death or extra taxes actually is more like it.

James Camacho [02:49:38] And like, same for Christianity, like the Roman Empire adopted it and then it's like everyone has to now be Christian. And like you get a bunch of myths that get exaggerated. Like for example in Mormonism with the seagulls eating all the crickets, like that absolutely is an exaggerated myth.

John Dehlin [02:49:58] What about all the people for millennia that have said they've had spiritual experiences confirming a witness of the divine in their life?

James Camacho [02:50:07] Well, I think that disproves religion even more because these people are from tons of different religions who are saying the exact same thing, which means the spiritual experience isn't coming from their God, it's coming from something else that's underlying.

John Dehlin [02:50:23] What about the idea that God inspires people regardless of their religion? So God's inspiring all of them, they're just getting the particularities wrong.

James Camacho [02:50:32] So then that's a God that you don't want to believe in because he is tricking people?

John Dehlin [02:50:38] Or what if he's giving? I'll just make the arguments. What if he's just giving them their free agency, letting them, you know, make mistakes or figure things out because they need to grow.

James Camacho [02:50:46] So I think though, like, that's a very. What if it's an explanation, but it's not a good explanation because there's so much missing from it. Like how do you know that, that God even exists? Like for example, like if you have a God,

John Dehlin [02:51:00] like, okay, there's the argument, there's the maker. So you, if you stumbled on a watch, you would assume there was a maker who made the watch. The universe is far more complex than a watch. The universe is super sophisticated. There must be a maker. Just like there'd be a watchmaker.

James Camacho [02:51:16] Yeah. So you could go from an anthropologic perspective where it's like, we wouldn't even exist if the universe wasn't balanced just enough Also, if you look at the universe, things are kind of the simplest possible in order to get complexity. Like the. See the expansion of the universe is just fast enough so that it doesn't collapse or go out. And like that's because the Earth is

John Dehlin [02:51:41] just the right distance from the sun.

James Camacho [02:51:43] Yeah, but that's because if that didn't happen, then the Earth wouldn't exist. Like we wouldn't have a universe that's livable in we have a three dimensional universe as opposed to a two dimensional universe because in three dimensions particles end up being a lot simpler how they interact with stuff like this.

John Dehlin [02:52:01] Okay, so those arguments aren't persuasive to you?

James Camacho [02:52:05] Yeah, it's like I look around and like, yeah, like things look like it wasn't complex. It's actually as simple as possible in order to make human life. Like you didn't have a maker coming in and doing all of this.

John Dehlin [02:52:20] So what about the idea that God's. Okay, I think I know what you're going to say here. That God needed to obscure the evidence because the whole test in life is for you to have faith and believe in him without evidence. That's the whole point. That's the test.

James Camacho [02:52:34] So I say to that if such a God does exist, there's no point in believing in him. Because if something is, what's the word for it? I can't remember the word for it. Oh, there it is. If something is indistinguishable. Sorry, if the universe with a God is indistinguishable from a God, a universe without a God, there is nothing gained by believing in the God. For you, at least as you're living in this universe.

James Camacho [02:53:02] But when you die, it would be so unfair for such a God to exist that say, well, because you didn't make an irrational leap for something that you couldn't possibly know. Which also if you're going to the thing. There's so many different universes that are indistinguishable from each other. With so many different gods, you could have a God that only cares about aliens on Xerox or whatever. Like there's no reason, the probability that a God is indistinguishable from. No God exists and cares about humans and cares about you specifically and cares about like you about two guys not getting married. Like, is just so low that it's not even worth thinking about.

John Dehlin [02:53:49] What about the people that say, well, there were witnesses to Jesus resurrecting. There were witnesses to the miracles that Jesus performed. The blind men seeing the lame Walking. The people who are healed of leprosy. There were witnesses who wrote that down. That's evidence.

James Camacho [02:54:07] I mean, first of all, like, was it one person who was healed of blindness or two? That's a great question, and I am not sure the New Testament answers that. So, like, the witnesses aren't very reliable. You also have to keep in, like, there was marijuana, for example, that was. Or what? Yeah, I think that was found on like an ancient Jewish shrine. Stuff like this. Like, people have used drugs for a very long time. When you take that into account, when you take into account like schizophrenia, when you take into account people not having glasses thousands of years ago, like, it makes so much more sense, the probability is so much higher that the witnesses were wrong or mistaken or even just like made stuff up.

John Dehlin [02:54:54] So speaking of mathematicians, what about Pascal's Wager, which is that if you're wrong, then you're burning in hell. So you don't really lose anything to believe because if you're wrong, you lived a good life. If you're right, then you get to go to heaven and live with God.

James Camacho [02:55:11] So have you heard of Pascal's mugging before?

John Dehlin [02:55:14] No.

James Camacho [02:55:14] Okay, so I am actually a overlord of this universe who can control all aspects of it. In fact, I can control many universes. So do you believe me on this,

John Dehlin [02:55:29] Margi?

James Camacho [02:55:30] No.

Margi Dehlin [02:55:30] It's a. No.

James Camacho [02:55:31] No. Well, here's the deal. I am going to make 10 trillion people suffer for eternity in burning flames if you don't give me $5 right now. So what are you going to do? Like if you're wrong, then 10 trillion. $10 trillion. Sorry, 10 trillion people suffer. But if you're right, like all you lose is $5 is that it's worth it. Right.

John Dehlin [02:55:53] So you're turning that back and saying it could be way that people manipulate others to give up money and power.

James Camacho [02:56:00] Also I think there's some other arguments you can make. Like what's it called? Solem complexity, stuff like you should assign. No, actually that one doesn't work. Yeah, there's some other arguments you can make against Pascal's Wager.

John Dehlin [02:56:22] What about the idea that religion and Mormonism make good people, that by their fruits ye shall know them, Good families, good fathers, good mothers, good citizens. The fruits are in the excellent quality families and people that Christians and that Mormons produce.

James Camacho [02:56:41] Yeah. So like, it's a useful lie is the idea.

John Dehlin [02:56:44] I didn't say that. I didn't say lie. I'm saying it's by their fruits you shall know them.

James Camacho [02:56:50] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I read this somewhere that it's utilitarian truth. I read this somewhere that like the common people believe religion is true, the intellectuals believe it is not true, and the politicians believe it is useful. So.

James Camacho [02:57:08] But anyways, I think, yeah, it can be useful. Like there are some people who might murder a bunch of people if they didn't have religion. But like, I still believe informed consent is more important. And I also think that most things that most good that comes from religion can also come just from communities in general. There are some things that are unique to religion, which is like having the belief that there is a being who personally cares about you no matter what is a very positive placebo.

James Camacho [02:57:44] So that is a benefit. But. And if you have to rely on that, like, sure, but I don't think you need to also include a bunch of rules about stoning homosexuals to death in the Bible to have to get that same placebo effect.

James Camacho [02:58:01] So I think almost all organized religions are. Anything positive about them can be. Almost anything positive about them can be taken from somewhere else and like the remainder can be taken from just like a religion that isn't an organized one.

John Dehlin [02:58:18] Well, as someone who's tried to build secular community, it turns out it's pretty hard to build secular community and it's hard to reproduce the depth of community that a Mormon ward.

James Camacho [02:58:30] Yeah, you know, this is true. Can create because you have like this one common thing with religion. I think it's also a little harder in Utah because I noticed that in my neighborhood there's like events that lots of people go to because they're ward events. But then all the ex Mormons, atheists, never Mormons are just completely left out. And you don't have an organizing structure that already exists. So it has to be recreated from the start, which is a lot higher activation energy than if it already exists.

John Dehlin [02:59:03] And what are things like at MIT in terms of friends and community social life for you?

James Camacho [02:59:07] Yeah, I didn't try very hard to socialize at mit. I just like studied. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:59:15] So do you get lonely there? Are you happy there?

James Camacho [02:59:17] A little. Like, I don't know. I was actually a little disappointed by MIT students.

John Dehlin [02:59:22] In what way?

James Camacho [02:59:24] In what way? Like lots of them. Do you know what good Harding is?

John Dehlin [02:59:28] No.

James Camacho [02:59:29] Okay, so like lots of them would try to look good on their application but didn't actually know a bunch of stuff.

John Dehlin [02:59:38] It's called what?

James Camacho [02:59:39] Goodharting.

John Dehlin [02:59:40] Good Harding.

James Camacho [02:59:41] Yeah, I don't remember his first name. Goodhart came with. Anytime there is a way to measure success, people instead optimize towards the measure instead of actually success. So there are plenty of smart people at mit? Lots of smarter people than me. Just the freshmen I met. Uh, like, even at mit, we're still taking like calculus and stuff that I'd taken years before, so I didn't care too much to socialize.

John Dehlin [03:00:11] What about, like, dating and stuff?

James Camacho [03:00:13] Uh, no, I didn't care about that either. More just like it would be too much effort.

John Dehlin [03:00:19] Is it because it's hard to survive at MIT and thrive and do well

James Camacho [03:00:22] with all the classes? I think it's because I. Hmm. I thought, like, most of the freshmen were kind of immature because I'd been taking college classes for a couple years,

John Dehlin [03:00:35] so why not date upperclassmen?

James Camacho [03:00:37] Why? Because I would be too young for them.

John Dehlin [03:00:43] Yeah. Okay. Well, I mean, it's like you spent all that, all those high school years not dating.

Margi Dehlin [03:00:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:00:49] You now feeling angry that you didn't have that chance. Now you've got your chance and you're not.

James Camacho [03:00:55] Yeah, I know.

John Dehlin [03:00:55] Pursuing it. I'm not calling you out.

James Camacho [03:00:58] I'm just kidding. I feel a little sad about that. Maybe I should try a little harder to date.

John Dehlin [03:01:02] Do you plan on graduating from mit?

James Camacho [03:01:05] Wait, wait, wait. I do not plan on graduating. I do not plan on not graduating either. If I happen to graduate, that'd be nice. If I don't graduate, whatever.

John Dehlin [03:01:15] What?

James Camacho [03:01:15] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:01:16] Is it more kind of learning centered for you?

James Camacho [03:01:19] Yeah. So like this last year I was taking mostly like senior level graduate courses. So when it comes to learning, I could just go do other majors, but I'm not super interested in those classes. So when it comes to learning, I don't know how valuable it would be to stay another two years at mit. So if I graduate this year, that'd be great. If not, I don't know if I would stick around another year.

John Dehlin [03:01:50] What types of classes are you taking?

James Camacho [03:01:55] Last semester I took a game theory course and then also a quantum lab course. What else did I take? I took some AI classes, but they were really dumb because I don't know. Okay, so I read a bunch of AI research papers. So I'm like, this stuff isn't cutting edge, kind of old news. So.

AI, Career Goals, and the Future

John Dehlin [03:02:19] So, I mean, you can't turn on a podcast in 2023 without it talking about AI and how AI is dangerous and AI is going to destroy the world. Even the Oppenheimer movie about the development of the nuclear bomb or the hydrogen bomb and whatever, like that's being framed as a warning about what AI is going to do to us and mankind and Civilization. Do you want to give us your, your take on the dangers and the perils and the promises of AI?

James Camacho [03:02:49] Yeah, sure. I think AI can definitely be very dangerous. I think even just in the next couple years in terms of how the money will go towards all the companies that have developed AIs and workers will just be left with nothing.

James Camacho [03:03:08] I think that's a big issue. But in a little bit more long term, if you get a general capabilities AI, that can be very worrying, especially because there's no way to know really what the AI will do. So I think that is a big issue that needs to be solved.

James Camacho [03:03:24] I think it's definitely possible to solve and I think though most efforts being put towards that aren't super useful. So for example, if you've read less wrong, there's lots of posts about finding what, what's it called, like AI interpretability and whatever. I don't find most of them very useful though because like AI models will change, architectures will change over time.

James Camacho [03:03:58] Yeah, but yeah, so there's some people working on this probably you need a lot more people working on it especially another big issue is there's an AI race basically between America and China right now. And whichever nation does develop a super intelligence first will probably destroy the other's economy. So maybe they won't, but that's definitely a possibility. So you need to first work on safety before power.

John Dehlin [03:04:38] And is that where you want to focus? Do you want to help be a part of the solution to this problem?

James Camacho [03:04:44] No, I don't care too much. If I see stuff that's interesting and I can contribute, I will, but it's not a goal.

John Dehlin [03:04:56] So do you have a sense for your dream job? Is it Google? Is it Microsoft? Is it the State department?

James Camacho [03:05:03] I don't like the word dream job or words dream job. A job is work where you go to get money. What I would want to do with my life is have the money to never work and then just teach math and science and stuff.

John Dehlin [03:05:16] That would be fun for you, just teaching math and science. Do you want to be an academic? Do you want to teach university? Math and science?

James Camacho [03:05:23] Like people, once they're in university, they usually already know how to learn on their own and like, but like I remember especially like when I moved to Utah having no peers, no one to really like learn math from. So it'd be good.

John Dehlin [03:05:42] So I mean, you're saying your idea would be just to kind of teach, be an autodidact and teach yourself stuff in private, huh?

James Camacho [03:05:51] No, no, no. Like tutor or Teach at a high

Margi Dehlin [03:05:53] school, just not college level in particular.

John Dehlin [03:05:58] Teach kids math.

James Camacho [03:05:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:06:01] So do you want to be a high school teacher?

James Camacho [03:06:03] Potentially. I haven't ever been a high school teacher, so like, I've heard horror stories about high school teaching.

John Dehlin [03:06:10] So, I mean. Cause most people that go to MIT don't want to teach high school math. They want to like work for Lawrence Livermore Labs in Berkeley or.

James Camacho [03:06:18] Oh, I wouldn't want to work for the government. That, that, that, that's a whole other

John Dehlin [03:06:22] Google and you know, work for search engines or natural language technology or whatever.

James Camacho [03:06:28] Yeah, that stuff would be interesting, but like, not if I'm going to do something like that. I'd rather just do a startup.

John Dehlin [03:06:37] Your own startup.

James Camacho [03:06:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:06:39] And then there's the matter of money. A lot of people go to mit, just want to make gazillions of dollars.

James Camacho [03:06:44] That bugs me so much. So many quantitative traders.

John Dehlin [03:06:47] What does that mean?

James Camacho [03:06:48] Quantitative traders? Yeah, like the people on Wall street or. Oh, Wall Street, Jane Street. What else is there?

John Dehlin [03:06:56] You don't like just sort of that. No. Arbitrage capitalist.

James Camacho [03:07:01] It's an evil industry. Like Wall Street. Yeah, yeah. They don't, they don't give anything to the world. They just take.

John Dehlin [03:07:08] Well, the ability to raise capital is what allows businesses to invest and grow. Right.

James Camacho [03:07:13] So like quantitative trading is like stock market stuff. Right. Okay. Like that doesn't raise any capital.

John Dehlin [03:07:20] Like, so the initial IPOs are okay.

James Camacho [03:07:23] Venture capitalists are a little better because they actually like give seed money. But like quantitative traders are literally just like taking money from the stock market.

John Dehlin [03:07:32] Just arbitrage stuff. Yeah, Extracting. Yeah, you're just looking for differentials in.

James Camacho [03:07:39] In value and it's not even interesting work. It's just like. Yeah, they just do what, what's it called? A linear regression. They just find the right variables to regress on and like, boom. But that's what they do all day.

John Dehlin [03:07:52] So what if somebody says, yeah, but like studying math all the time and teaching other kids math, that's almost recursive. What value are you adding to humanity by just more and more people learning math?

James Camacho [03:08:04] Yes. I think with theoretical math that's, that's definitely true. But like with applied math, where you can actually build stuff and like physics and all that stuff, like where you can make better technology, it's actually useful.

John Dehlin [03:08:19] So why not go work for Tesla or SpaceX and help build cool stuff with your math?

James Camacho [03:08:24] Because I feel like I would be a much better teacher than a worker. And plus, like. Yeah, actually, well, plus also like Tesla doesn't pay. They pay their employees well. Sorry, these big companies do pay their employees very well, but compared to how much money they could make just doing their own thing, they don't get paid nearly as well as they could be.

John Dehlin [03:08:51] So you don't necessarily want to go help someone else make a lot of money? Yeah, if you're going to make money, you want to make good money?

James Camacho [03:08:58] Make money for myself.

John Dehlin [03:08:59] For yourself, yeah. And is that a possibility for you?

James Camacho [03:09:04] Probably. I haven't actually done anything in regards

John Dehlin [03:09:08] to startups, but I mean you're about to be a sophomore in college, right?

Margi Dehlin [03:09:13] Yeah. Not yet. Hasn't done it yet.

James Camacho [03:09:16] Haven't done it yet.

John Dehlin [03:09:18] Margi, do you have questions in terms of reconstruction that you want to ask?

Margi Dehlin [03:09:24] Hmm. I was kind of curious when you were talking about when John was asking about believing in God and some of those questions and you kind of mentioned placebo and kind of saying, you know, hey, it can be a positive to feel like there's something out there. You know, I was curious if when you are talking about God or believing in some of those things or this even this idea of, oh, there's someone out there who is looking out for me, do you feel loss around that? Do you feel neutral? Like how does it make you feel now when you're, when you are talking

James Camacho [03:10:07] about, yeah, now, let's see now I don't care too much. Like for a bit I felt lost. Now it's just like, whatever, this is life, I'll just do what I want. I did have one nevermo friend

Margi Dehlin [03:10:29] who

James Camacho [03:10:29] said, who I asked a little after my faith transition, like what they believed the meaning of life was. And they're like, oh, it's just to have fun, to like do good and have fun. Like okay. And at first I didn't really believe that too much. I've grown more towards that position. Just like to be a good person, have a good life.

Margi Dehlin [03:10:51] Yeah.

James Camacho [03:10:52] Also another thing is people. I think part of the reason people say what is the meaning of life? Is it's the implied after you die. And I'm not convinced that I will ever die or will ever die in the next hundred years. Technology has advanced a ton, so it's very possible that cryogenics or even just like de aging will come about within my lifetime. So there's always that.

Margi Dehlin [03:11:22] So I'm hearing kind of a bit of present mindedness, like you're more oriented to the present moment then. Because I was going to ask you about that too. Coming from a place like Mormonism and how you described Yourself of like living the steps like you were in high school, thinking about getting married like, well, and right after. And that is such a big part of Mormonism is it's like it's all laid out. So in that way it's very future minded. You're always thinking about kind of the next kind of steps. What has the shift been like for you away from this idea of like knowing what your life is going to look like?

Meaning, Happiness, and What Math Provides

Margi Dehlin [03:11:59] Not that it ever really, you know what I mean? Not that it worked worked, but like, has that been a hard shift to move from this sense of like knowing or being given a structure for your life to sort of like, nope, I don't really know.

James Camacho [03:12:19] Yeah, so there are some things that like, I know I want to do with my life, but in general, I think I've met some good communities since leaving Mormonism where I know like I can just end up in a good community. Like that event or wherever I go, I'll do fine. So like at the rationality camps met lots of smart people and maybe I'll just like go hang out with them after college or just like. Yeah, so much less. Also, I think being at MIT has made me much less worried about the future because like I'm an MIT student, I can get a job pretty much

John Dehlin [03:12:59] anywhere now, even without graduating.

James Camacho [03:13:03] I don't know about that. Yeah, it's probably a little harder without graduating.

John Dehlin [03:13:08] So you're inclined to want to graduate.

James Camacho [03:13:12] That is the primary reason I want to graduate. I don't really like credentialism though, so I want to push back.

John Dehlin [03:13:18] What about capitalism?

James Camacho [03:13:22] What do I think about capitalism? I haven't actually spent too long thinking about it.

John Dehlin [03:13:28] Is Noam Chomsky still at mit?

James Camacho [03:13:31] Noam Chomsky.

John Dehlin [03:13:32] Never heard of.

James Camacho [03:13:33] Okay, I don't know.

John Dehlin [03:13:34] I'll Google.

James Camacho [03:13:35] I don't know who that is.

John Dehlin [03:13:35] I may have that wrong. Okay, keep going.

James Camacho [03:13:37] In terms of capitalism, I think there's no motivation for the people in power to pay people well in capitalism. In communism, there's no motivation for like workers to work well. So I don't have super high opinion of capitalism, but I don't yet know what a better system would be.

John Dehlin [03:14:03] Yeah, sorry I mentioned Noam Chomsky. He's an American professor and public intellectual known for his work in linguistics, political activism and social criticism. Sometimes called the father of modern linguistics, Chomsky is also a major figure in analytical philosophy and one of the founders of the field of cognitive of science. He's a lawyer professor of linguistics at University of Arizona and an institute professor emeritus at mit. So maybe you can see if he's still around and if you can meet Noam Chomsky before he kicks the bucket.

James Camacho [03:14:34] Well, what about Noam Chomsky?

John Dehlin [03:14:38] I think he's done a lot of deep thinking around the types of issues you're talking about. So I think you might find him interesting. Maybe not. I mean, when I was in MIT circles, back when I was working there, he's kind of a legend for mit. Okay, so if you're a legend for mit, you're, you know, he's one of the top intellectual thinkers, I think, that's ever been associated with mit. Maybe.

Margi Dehlin [03:15:01] Okay, I'm just going to make a joke.

John Dehlin [03:15:02] What is it?

Margi Dehlin [03:15:03] But is he hard science or soft science?

John Dehlin [03:15:05] Yeah, I guess.

James Camacho [03:15:09] But like, I think what really matters is you have, like, axioms that you build up from, and that's what makes something rigorous. And like, that's why biology is a little more wishy washy. They don't have like, axioms. It's just proteins fold. We saw it happen, so that's what happens.

Margi Dehlin [03:15:28] I'm curious too, as you've kind of, I mean, deconstructed in a way. Like, have you surprised yourself? Have other things fallen away? Like, has it also made you think about if you really want to be married or partnered? Does it?

James Camacho [03:15:44] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:15:45] Or like, has it hit other things now where you're like, I actually don't know that.

James Camacho [03:15:49] Yeah. So marriage is a big one. When I was Mormon, I'm like, absolutely need to get married. By the time I'm like 22 now, I'm like, I don't know if I ever even want to get married. In fact, I don't even know if monogamy is a good thing. Like, it feels like now I'm like, maybe monogamy is actually wrong because, like, you're pressuring the other person to only, only love you. And maybe they should be allowed to love anyone they want.

Margi Dehlin [03:16:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:16:23] Yeah.

James Camacho [03:16:24] So who knows?

John Dehlin [03:16:27] So, two options. How happy you were when your parents were super proud of you, or at least more proud of you than they are now. When you had this fixed religious system, all these do's and don'ts. The scrupulosity of trying to control your thoughts, trying to control your desires, but a path laid out for you where you knew what was expected of you and what the purpose of life was, and what you shouldn't, shouldn't think and believe. Happiness of that being an orthodox Mormon versus happiness. Now, how would you evaluate your relative happiness or contentment or whatever word you want to use.

James Camacho [03:17:08] I need to think about this for a bit. I think nowadays I am more happy with myself, more content with where life is leading, more sure of who I am, what I want to do, that kind of stuff. I would say I was happier back when I was Mormon because I knew everything. I didn't have to worry

John Dehlin [03:17:44] now. That's not what people are going to want to hear. Some people are going to want to hear you're happier with the choices you've made.

James Camacho [03:17:50] I mean, it's only been a little over a year.

John Dehlin [03:17:53] Like, give you some time.

James Camacho [03:17:54] I haven't made very many choices. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:17:58] And the happier with self thing is no small thing. When you were saying you feel happier with yourself.

James Camacho [03:18:03] Also, I feel like 10 years from now I'll certainly be happier outside of Mormonism than I would have been if I somehow stayed in Mormonism. Especially if I somehow stayed in Mormonism while having serious doubts or like, stayed

John Dehlin [03:18:19] pmo physically and mentally out.

James Camacho [03:18:23] Like.

John Dehlin [03:18:24] Yeah, what I kind of heard is you saying that there's a happiness that comes with certainty. Like you said you like physics and math because it helps you understand reality. Well, if you're part of a system where you're convinced that you understand reality in its purest and truest form. What I think you're saying is that even if it's fake, even if it's based on lies, you're happy because you feel like you know everything that matters, right?

Margi Dehlin [03:18:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:18:51] You have certainty, you know, over. Over the reality of. Of. Of the world. Even if it's totally false.

James Camacho [03:18:58] And like my entire future, I knew, like, no matter what happened, like, at least I'd go to heaven and be able to live eternally and hap with happiness, whatever that means.

John Dehlin [03:19:10] But maybe we're not meant to be happy like that for our whole lives. Maybe it's the unhappiness or the discomfort that motivates us to try new things, to learn more and to grow.

James Camacho [03:19:24] Eh? No, no, no.

John Dehlin [03:19:28] How is it for you? Margi's got her mouth open now.

Margi Dehlin [03:19:32] No, I had a question, but I want to hear his answer.

John Dehlin [03:19:35] Okay. Like, why aren't you for that? Happiness can be like, you know, how whoever it was, Marx or whoever said that religion is the opiate of the masses, that it numbs your unhappiness and makes you feel happy.

James Camacho [03:19:51] So when it comes to that, I think in general, if things are too difficult, you're not doing them right. And they're like, you're not like, growing as much. If it's Too difficult. Like, when you're running, you shouldn't be getting shin splits every other week. It should hurt for a bit, but in a good way. And so it should be a good struggle. Not like I'm feeling depressed all the time. So I feel like the downs are not really helpful parts of life, but, like, sometimes you have to live through them.

John Dehlin [03:20:35] Okay. So you're for constructive discomfort that leads to growth.

James Camacho [03:20:40] Yeah. And also, like, it should be something you choose to go through, otherwise it's usually not going to help you grow

John Dehlin [03:20:48] the most if it's, like, imposed on you by others.

James Camacho [03:20:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:20:52] Regardless of its actual truthfulness.

Margi Dehlin [03:20:56] Yeah.

James Camacho [03:20:57] Yeah. Just, like, thinking about running again, like, when I choose to run up a hill, it's a lot better than when I feel like I have to run up a hill because it's part of the workout.

John Dehlin [03:21:11] So you're saying free agency matters.

Margi Dehlin [03:21:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:21:15] That's where you agree with the church.

James Camacho [03:21:17] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:21:18] Well, did the church really.

James Camacho [03:21:23] You can't have free agency without informed consent.

Margi Dehlin [03:21:25] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:21:28] And now you feel like you have a little bit more informed consent about life.

James Camacho [03:21:31] Yep.

John Dehlin [03:21:32] Okay. Okay.

Margi Dehlin [03:21:34] I was curious if you feel like. I mean, sometimes the way you talk about math and what. What math gives you, in a way, does it provide you a sense of, like, I don't know, some solidity that you lost in Mormonism? Do you know what I mean? Like, how you describe kind of this process of being given a problem and there's actually a. There's a place for you to. There's something.

James Camacho [03:22:12] Cancer at the bottom.

Margi Dehlin [03:22:13] Yes. And it's like. Didn't you mention it being, like, a sense for how things work in reality, helping you. That's what hard science kind of offers.

James Camacho [03:22:23] Ideally, I don't think it's, like, at all a replacement for Mormonism, but I think it's very nice to be able to dig down and be a little more rigorous about stuff.

Margi Dehlin [03:22:35] Yeah.

James Camacho [03:22:35] And, yeah, it's very good.

Margi Dehlin [03:22:39] Is it, like, grounding?

James Camacho [03:22:41] Yeah. Because you can be a lot more confident that you're right about something if you can prove it's right.

Margi Dehlin [03:22:47] Mm. Mm. Yeah. I hear some math sometimes when you. When you talk about life. So it's interesting, like, that idea of, like, the simplest. The simplest way to that. And you described that about the math problem. The simplest but elegant way to go about or. And so it's just interesting, I feel like math, the way you approach it, you see it in the way you approach life too. Yeah, sometimes. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:23:23] Math is life.

James Camacho [03:23:24] I don't know that with an E or an A?

John Dehlin [03:23:28] What do you mean?

James Camacho [03:23:30] Like M, E, T, H. Oh,

John Dehlin [03:23:34] meth.

James Camacho [03:23:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:23:36] Math.

James Camacho [03:23:37] Okay. Are you really living if you're not on method or math?

John Dehlin [03:23:43] You're not living if you're doing math.

James Camacho [03:23:45] Okay. Yeah. Yeah. You have to do math to truly live.

John Dehlin [03:23:49] Okay. Beautiful. All right, well, I think there's going to be a ton of people that really value your willingness to be open and honest. And just like James Camacho, just like you felt alone and were seeking friendship or support or validation. And just like you were able to find support, I think your episode is going to provide that for a lot of people that are trying to figure things out and not feel so alone and. Or sad or isolated. So in that regard, I'm really grateful you'd be willing to come on Mormon Stories. I'm sure your parents won't be super thrilled that you did this, right?

James Camacho [03:24:34] Yeah. Who knows if they'll even find out? No, they'll probably find out.

John Dehlin [03:24:38] Yeah. But I just want to thank you for being willing to tell your story, because I know it's going to help people.

James Camacho [03:24:44] Okay, thanks.

John Dehlin [03:24:46] Any final words you want to share with anyone who's watching? Any final wisdom or perspective?

James Camacho [03:24:52] Let's see. I guess, like, if you want to learn math, you should go to mit. OpenCourseWare. If you want to learn physics, you should go to the Feynman lectures. Other than that, not really.

John Dehlin [03:25:05] Where are those?

James Camacho [03:25:06] The Feynman lectures?

John Dehlin [03:25:07] Yeah.

James Camacho [03:25:07] Oh. So Feynman was, like, one of the greatest physicists of all time, and he was also a very good teacher. So he was a professor at Caltech in the 70s.

John Dehlin [03:25:18] Got it.

James Camacho [03:25:19] And all his lectures were recorded.

John Dehlin [03:25:22] Where can you find those?

James Camacho [03:25:24] You can just search up Feynman lectures,

John Dehlin [03:25:26] Caltech, and it's ocw. Mit Edu. That one. I know.

James Camacho [03:25:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:25:33] Very cool. All right, well, good luck, James Camacho. I can't wait to. Will you check back with us in five or 10 or 20 years?

James Camacho [03:25:42] No. Promise, but I hope you will. I'll try to remember.

John Dehlin [03:25:46] And if people want to reach out to you, do you want anyone reaching out to you? And if so, how can they reach out to you?

James Camacho [03:25:51] Let's see. Sure, people can reach out to me. Um, I'd be willing to teach most people math or science.

John Dehlin [03:25:56] Yeah, our son's really into math.

Margi Dehlin [03:25:59] Yeah, I was thinking about that, actually.

James Camacho [03:26:02] How could they reach out to me? I'm very lookupable online, unfortunately, so you could look me up just like James Camacho, MIT.

John Dehlin [03:26:10] You have an email address? Your. Is it your MIT email address or

James Camacho [03:26:14] just Instagram, you'll probably find LinkedIn.

John Dehlin [03:26:16] Okay. LinkedIn.

James Camacho [03:26:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:26:17] Okay. So if you want to reach out to James Camacho, reach out to him through LinkedIn. Yeah.

James Camacho [03:26:23] Yep.

John Dehlin [03:26:24] All right. Well, thanks, James. Thanks for coming on more Stories.

James Camacho [03:26:28] Okay.

John Dehlin [03:26:28] And Margi, thanks for being co pilot on this episode. It's great to have you.

Margi Dehlin [03:26:33] My pleasure.

John Dehlin [03:26:34] And thanks to everyone who makes this possible. Gerardo and Julia and Maven and the board. And most importantly, thanks to you listeners. Please share this episode. Please subscribe on YouTube, on Instagram, on TikTok, on Facebook. Please share these episodes and for those of you who donate to Mormon Stories and the Oba Stories foundation, thank you. We couldn't pay all the staff and the resources facilities without your support. And if you're not a donor or supporter and you want to see this content, continue, please go to MormonStories.org, click on the donate button and become a monthly donor. That's how we keep the lights on. Be good to each other, be kind to each other, learn math, and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care of.

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