Episode Transcript
Host: John Dehlin · Co-hosts: Gerardo Sumano, Margi Dehlin · Guest: Jake Bellenfant
This transcript is machine-generated and lightly edited for readability. The audio is authoritative. Please excuse occasional errors in names and spelling.
Welcome and Show Introduction
Margi Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to another episode of Thrive Stories. I am your host, Margi Dehlin. And today I am joined by my co hosts, Gerardo Simano.
Gerardo Sumano [00:00:09] Hi, Margi.
Margi Dehlin [00:00:10] Hi, Gerardo. How are you?
John Dehlin [00:00:11] Good.
Gerardo Sumano [00:00:12] I'm doing great.
Margi Dehlin [00:00:13] Glad to have you here.
Gerardo Sumano [00:00:14] Yeah, I'm pretty excited to be on my first episode of Thrive Stories.
Margi Dehlin [00:00:20] And John Dylan over on Sound. Yes.
John Dehlin [00:00:22] Hello, Margi, how are you?
Margi Dehlin [00:00:26] I am doing well. How are you? John over there?
John Dehlin [00:00:28] It's been a while since I've seen you this morning.
Margi Dehlin [00:00:32] That's right.
John Dehlin [00:00:32] I'm playing Cara today because Kara's out of town, so. Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:00:37] Well, welcome everyone. We are glad you're here.
John Dehlin [00:00:39] Not out of town. She's on much needed vacation, so.
Margi Dehlin [00:00:43] This is true. Breaks are good. Yeah, yeah. So before we begin, just a short summary about what Thrive Stories project is. Basically, the idea are shortened interviews. So the interviews tend to be one to two hours long, as opposed to kind of the longer form of the traditional Mormon Stories podcast. Podcast interview, where we have people nominate either themselves or someone they know in an area of thriving. And so some, let's just say potential areas might be parenting or mental health or grief and loss, or perhaps finding meaning and purpose. It could also be conscious, like a more intimate marriage. What else, John, what am I missing?
John Dehlin [00:01:29] No, those are all good.
Margi Dehlin [00:01:30] Yeah. So picking an area of thriving, nominating someone, and if you're interested in participating, you can. We'll probably provide a link. Yeah, yeah.
John Dehlin [00:01:40] The whole idea is just we do a lot of deconstruction, we do a lot of truth claims, we do a lot of long form, but we want to help people heal and grow and kind of figure out how to build a big, beautiful life after religious orthodoxy or religion falls apart. So any domain you think would be useful to other people, we want to. We want you to throw in your story.
Margi Dehlin [00:02:00] That's right.
John Dehlin [00:02:00] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:02:01] Yeah. So before we begin today's interview, which I am so excited about, we're going to go ahead and have hit it over to John one last time for announcements.
John Dehlin [00:02:11] Yeah. And also I'll just say that in the bottom of every Thrive story episode on the blog or even in the show notes on YouTube, you can click on a link to apply, Right?
Margi Dehlin [00:02:22] That's right.
John Dehlin [00:02:23] And then Margi approves and then I
Margi Dehlin [00:02:25] read them through with. With great love. And yes, we kind of move on from there. So feel free to submit.
John Dehlin [00:02:34] Yeah. So just a couple really quick announcements. We had our first open arms collective event last week. Jen Camp leads those. And it's just this amazing group of Women and gender non binary individuals that are enjoying life together. And we're having one with Leah Young. Leah Young is going to be in town April 3, 1 to 3pm I think that's a Sunday. It's going to be a communication and parenting class. We love Leah. You can go to mormonstories.org events to register for that. And of course Thrive Day for women is coming up April 2nd. Thrive Day for Men April 3rd. And then Thrive Houston, Southern California and Florida are all April 2nd as well. And you can go to thrivebeyondreligion.com to register for those events.
Margi Dehlin [00:03:14] Beautiful.
John Dehlin [00:03:14] Back to you, Margi.
Margi Dehlin [00:03:16] Great. Well, let's dive in finally. So I would like to welcome our interviewee. Is that who it is? The interviewee of the day. And I'm so excited to welcome Jake Bellenfant here.
Jake Bellenfant [00:03:28] How's it going?
Gerardo Sumano [00:03:29] Good to be here.
Margi Dehlin [00:03:30] Thank you. Welcome, welcome. We are thrilled to hear from you today.
Jake Bellenfant [00:03:33] Glad to be here.
Introducing Jake Bellenfant
Margi Dehlin [00:03:35] So why don't we start out just so that you all can get to know Jake. Just sort of on a, a basic level having Jake just kind of introduce himself a little bit. Kind of where you find yourself today, who you love. Just a little bit about you in this moment. Okay.
Jake Bellenfant [00:03:51] A little bit about me. Well, I am a Orange county boy, born and raised. I'm the oldest of four and my parents are both converts to the church. My mom was British so she was from a small fishing town in Grimsby town and she had served her mission Anaheim Spanish speaking and had met my dad over here post mission. We growing up in Orange county was great. I had a great upbringing overall. We had as far as like living in the area. We had Disneyland close to us. So we always were lucky to have like SoCal residents who were huge Disney fans in my family. And you know, post coming back from my mission I moved here to Utah and had my adventure here and then met my husband about five years ago. So who I love today, I love my husband Trevor. We have our long haired German shepherd bear, bear and my family I love my dad, my stepmom, my sister, my two younger brothers and my stepbrother. And yeah, that's. And my friends and family, friends and family that are here in Utah area.
Margi Dehlin [00:05:01] Beautiful. And do you want to talk a little bit about the program that you're in right now just because it is such a big part of your life right now?
Jake Bellenfant [00:05:06] Right, right. Yeah, my life's pretty hectic right now. So I graduated from the University of Utah's bachelor of Science in nursing. So I am a licensed registered nurse. I've been working in mental health since 2012. So I've been both a psych tech and an RN. I've worked with a variety of populations, from adolescent residential to our crisis services, step down hospital diversion, inpatient units with populations across lifespan, and also the Utah State Prison. I am currently at Vanderbilt University and I am studying to be a psychiatric mental health NURS practitioner. So continuing on my education, my end goal is to earn a doctorate of nursing practice degree. And I just want to be able to provide care and give back to the mental health community that I care so much about.
Margi Dehlin [00:05:58] Brilliant. Yeah, that sounds like a full, very full life.
Jake Bellenfant [00:06:02] Yeah, it is. Yeah. I was just in Nashville last week, so I'm sometimes going back and forth between Utah, Nashville, and, you know, my sleep. Sleep hygiene are the best. I pick up shifts as a nurse still at night, and then I do clinical hours in the days and have to study. It's, it's. It's. It's pretty wild right now.
Margi Dehlin [00:06:17] Yeah. Balancing act.
Jake Bellenfant [00:06:19] Yep.
Margi Dehlin [00:06:19] Well, we're so glad you could squeeze us in.
Jake Bellenfant [00:06:21] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:06:23] So why don't we start? What were some of the areas that you selected for? Areas of thriving for yourself.
Jake Bellenfant [00:06:30] Mental health, for me, for sure, that is something I'm passionate about. It's something that I have personal experience with and also a lot of work experience with, and also focusing on, like, grief and loss and finding a new sense of community and finding yourself as well.
Margi Dehlin [00:06:46] Yeah. Beautiful. So if we were going to maybe begin in your formative years, like, if we were going to kind of take a look at the messaging or any kind of standout stories with regard to themes that played into your mental health? I would assume maybe growing up gay played into that a little bit.
Growing Up Gay in the LDS Church
Jake Bellenfant [00:07:07] Right, right.
Margi Dehlin [00:07:08] Like, do you want to kind of take us through some of the messaging you received around being who you were and growing up kind of in your family, in your church community, what stands out?
Jake Bellenfant [00:07:20] You know, it was really difficult growing up gay. I grew up around a really difficult time. We had Prop 8 come out around when I was in high school. So, you know, kind of starting around that. I do. I remember the day when we had that letter written and. Or read out loud in sacrament meeting. I still can vividly remember that day. And it was just a really difficult time because I feel like there was just such high tensions between, you know, the LDS community and the LGBTQ community, and sometimes that didn't always come out in the best ways from members and leaders and the youth around me growing Up.
John Dehlin [00:07:59] I just realized Prop 8 was 14 years ago. That's a long time. So like you're a kid, you're a gay kid in Mormon kid in California. For those who don't Even know what Prop 8 was, talk about like how you remember experiencing that as a gay Mormon kid in California and how old were you?
Jake Bellenfant [00:08:18] Honestly, I just remember that I was in High School.
John Dehlin [00:08:20] 14.
Jake Bellenfant [00:08:21] I'm 30 now, so.
Margi Dehlin [00:08:24] Yeah, 16.
Jake Bellenfant [00:08:25] Yeah. And I just remember just feeling what
John Dehlin [00:08:30] was prep 8 and how do you remember learning about it?
Jake Bellenfant [00:08:32] Well, I'm going to talk about how I understood Prop 8 from being young. It was just, you know, a battle to fight against marriage equality in California. The church was very much pushing members to put up signs to go around asking for donations and my parents did so as well. So that was really hard on me to like, you know, see the community kind of gathering against another community. I just felt a lot of fear and terrified because, you know, you're sat there and you know, the LGBT community is within the congregations. You know, we're born into all these families, so it's, you know, we are them and it's, it's hard when you hear, you know, difficult things from coming out of some certain members mouths and stuff.
Margi Dehlin [00:09:16] Yeah. In your memory, was that kind of one of the first major times you felt messaging around kind of being gay or had you, or growing up, had you felt that before, if that makes
Jake Bellenfant [00:09:31] sense, like negative messaging?
Margi Dehlin [00:09:32] Yeah. In church, like was that part of your story or do you remember kind of the, that the Prop 8 being the first real pivotal kind of woe.
Jake Bellenfant [00:09:41] I think that was the first pivotal kind of woe. But I had had some experiences before as well that I can remember from starting mostly around like junior high with even just at kids at school, you know, they start using bad names to, you know, calling them other kids gay and you know, that's when the gay jokes started and you kind of, you, you notice I've always known that I was different and I always, I could say that I always knew that I was gay. So it's just constantly living, having that fight or flight response going and constantly living in fear.
Gerardo Sumano [00:10:13] Yeah.
Jake Bellenfant [00:10:14] So I had that surround me a lot with both my schooling and with the youth and adults within my ward. So.
Margi Dehlin [00:10:22] Yeah.
Gerardo Sumano [00:10:23] So I have a question for you, Jake. So do you remember, was it during your teenage years when you came out to yourself? Because I feel like, I don't know, for me growing up in a, in the LDS Church, like, I did know I was different, but then I didn't know how to rationalize it or put it together with my beliefs. So, like, a lot of us would just, you know, deny that we're gay. Some may just say, oh, I have same sex attraction, but I'm not gay. And, and even some gay members of the church would even support things like Prop 8 and stuff during that time because of internalized homophobia and all the messaging that we get around what being gay is, is like the church paints this picture of gay people are evil and are bad, but I'm not bad, so I'm not gay, you know, so. And those are the ones that the church is fighting. But, you know, so how did you think about all that stuff?
Jake Bellenfant [00:11:29] I really did believe that I was inherently bad. I, you know, hearing all these messages, I really struggled. I thought that I was in a. Sometimes I would go into a sense of denial, like, oh, I'm not gay. But I always did know that I was gay. And it really took a toll on my mental health. I just remember that during my teenage years, just kind of talking about how I was as a teenager. I was a bit in religious orthodoxy, a bit of a shell of a human. I was very quiet, not humorous. I was very, like, irritable, easily annoyed, easily bored, sometimes would speak out if I was upset. But at the same time, I was a good kid and had really good grades and was involved in soccer growing up. But I still had these things going on. And these are common symptoms that in adolescents that are struggling with depression.
Margi Dehlin [00:12:19] So that's right.
Jake Bellenfant [00:12:23] But I, I just remember growing up having this sense of being bad and that I had to pray harder, I had to be more perfect. I pushed myself to get better grades. I wanted to make my parents proud. And I literally would cry myself to sleep every night, just praying like, please don't make me gay. I don't want to be gay anymore. And it was really hard on me. And then also with the suicidal ideation, which we'll get to.
Margi Dehlin [00:12:51] Okay, so I'm hearing kind of this split sense of self, is that right? It's like this. You have this self that's accomplishing and achieving right in the external world, but then internally you're suffering, you actually are experiencing. Is that, Is that how you would describe that?
Jake Bellenfant [00:13:11] I would say that's correct. Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:13:13] Okay.
Jake Bellenfant [00:13:13] I was really suffering at that time.
Margi Dehlin [00:13:15] And would you say, like, how early do you remember kind of having. Being conscious or aware that that was. So like, do you remember as a boy. As a boy being aware of. Or when do you really feel like the weight of that emerging of sort of like I have this self and this is like my striving kind of or whatever. But at the heart too, I'm also just really, really feeling like there's a piece of me that I can't let people know about.
Jake Bellenfant [00:13:44] Probably around age 12. When you become a deacon. Yeah. Once you get, you know, you have different standards set for you and you're getting into that adolescent life and.
Margi Dehlin [00:13:53] Yeah.
Jake Bellenfant [00:13:54] You know, you're beginning to pass the sacrament and have the spotlight on you a bit. I felt that more at that time.
Margi Dehlin [00:14:04] Yeah.
Jake Bellenfant [00:14:04] So then I did in my early years. Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:14:06] Okay. And what would you say kind of if you had to describe what religious orthodoxy, like what that. Let's just say how it was not serving you at that time. What would you say with regard to that to when you look back, how. What would you say about that for those years?
Jake Bellenfant [00:14:30] I would say for those years it was mostly not serving me well because I felt that I was in an unsafe environment. I felt like a lot of it was toxic and I worried for my life, both with this kind of the messaging around being gay. It affected my mental health so greatly. And I just kind of always had that fight flight response of feeling in danger and feeling fear and who can I trust? And it just. That's how I remember my adolescent years. Just being scared all the time.
Margi Dehlin [00:15:02] Yeah.
Jake Bellenfant [00:15:02] And that was, that was hard. That's. That's not a healthy way to live.
Margi Dehlin [00:15:06] It's not. And our bodies, our bodies and minds are not designed to live in constant fight or flight. Right, right. So there's like a toll that that takes on human beings.
Jake Bellenfant [00:15:16] Exactly.
Margi Dehlin [00:15:16] They are in that state for long periods of time.
Jake Bellenfant [00:15:19] Yeah, there is. Yeah. You know, there's a study, the adverse childhood event study, and they go over, you know, different experiences that you could have during childhood and how it affects how having cortisol and the sympathetic nervous system over activated for such a long period of time, it increases your risks for a lot of physical and mental health issues later on in life.
Margi Dehlin [00:15:43] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I'm hearing kind of this perpetual cortisol stream around safety. Just always feeling like a threat, a potential threat could be around the corner.
Jake Bellenfant [00:15:55] Right, right.
Margi Dehlin [00:15:56] Okay. And then what about your relationships just at that time, did you have this sense of could you be authentic? Could you be fully you with people in your life or were you. Did you feel quite isolated?
Jake Bellenfant [00:16:11] Yeah, absolutely not. I felt pretty isolated. I felt like everything was very superficial. So all my relationships were just on the surface and a lot of that had to come came down to trusting other people. That was a huge issue I went through was learning how to trust people, even growing up and. And being. Being authentic and, you know, opening yourself up to others. So.
Margi Dehlin [00:16:37] Okay. Okay. That's a great kind of nesting, I feel like, for.
John Dehlin [00:16:43] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:16:43] Did you want to say something?
Gerardo Sumano [00:16:44] Yeah. So maybe for some heterosexual people watching this podcast might not fully understand, like, what that hiding or being in fear, how that translates in your. In your day to day, you know, like, actions. To me, what comes to my mind is like, not doing something super feminine. So, like, no one would notice that I'm not gay or not. Not really talking about my feelings with. With friends, even with, like, my closest friends. Or how would that constant, you know, fear and. And trying to protect yourself translated into your actions? Do you remember any of that?
Jake Bellenfant [00:17:30] I would agree that I felt pretty similar. I definitely would purposefully try to act more masculine. I was involved in soccer, and I love to stay athletic and in shape. I was just. I felt like I was really quiet and it was really hard for me to just open up and have fun and smile. And that was. That was really hard for me because we had a lot of great activities going on around us that our leaders would put on. And I felt like I could not be a kid and enjoy and have fun because I was so stressed out and so scared all the time.
Margi Dehlin [00:18:08] So that totally makes sense because I feel like in order to get to that place where you can have fun, like, just looking at it, like, evolutionarily, you have to feel safe.
Jake Bellenfant [00:18:20] Right.
Margi Dehlin [00:18:21] Like, when we're being hyper vigilant, when we think harm is, you know, imminent, we're not in a place of, like, experiencing joy or. And that's so interesting because in talking with you, it feels like now that's part of you. Like, that is part of you. Is that sort of joy and humor. And would you say that's true?
Jake Bellenfant [00:18:41] Oh, I would for sure. I could be, you know, I'm nervous now, but I could be a bit of a goof in my personal life. So,
Margi Dehlin [00:18:49] yeah.
Jake Bellenfant [00:18:50] And yeah, I'm a bit. I'm a bit silly, I'm a bit awkward, and I embrace that self brace, that part of myself.
Margi Dehlin [00:18:56] So, yeah, so that's high effort, Gerardo. I would feel like that's such a good point of just like, what's being asked of someone.
Jake Bellenfant [00:19:06] Right.
Margi Dehlin [00:19:07] Yeah. So in thinking about all of this and looking at mental health and you can bring in kind of grief and loss naturally, but in looking at this, what would we See, if we were going to drop in kind of you before either that awakening or transition happened, what would we see in you? You've kind of gone over it a little bit. But if we kind of dropped right before the impetus for change, what would we see in you? What would. What was your coping like? How are you showing up in the world? What was it? Much more about this. I feel like you can kind of maybe take us even through mission almost.
Adolescence, Identity, and Isolation
Jake Bellenfant [00:19:46] Right. Yeah. I mean, I still want to cover some things from my adolescent childhood. Yeah, sorry.
Margi Dehlin [00:19:50] Love that.
Jake Bellenfant [00:19:51] Before we get into. For my mission. So some stories. Yeah. You know, growing up I had. I'll just bring up them randomly. I remember my sister, indirect bullying of her. I remember she was at girls camp and she, she's a beautiful woman,
John Dehlin [00:20:10] but
Jake Bellenfant [00:20:10] she struggled growing up with feeling self conscious about her acne. So she always wanted to wear makeup. And so, you know, she was wearing makeup at girls camp and a couple of the girls were making fun of her, saying, who are you trying to impress with the makeup? And then they started to see, you know, I Kissed a Girl by Katy Perry. And that really affected her. And I could see that. And it indirectly affected me because it created more fear, you know, of bullying for being gay. And then just also wanted to discuss like a specific topic of where. Of where, like and where my distrust in all leaders and my youth around me kind of happened. And this is a pretty like serious story for me. So it's hard to you know, go over, you know, growing up, we had a great high adventure trip to Yosemite and we were climbing Half Dome. And on that it was like a 40 mile hike, I believe. And on that hike there was a boy that me and him played soccer together and we didn't always get along and we were not getting along on that trip and the leaders did not sense that and we were not around any of the other leaders and we had gotten into a physical altercation. And right after that physical altercation we had the young men's president at that time around the, kind of around the hill taking pictures as we were like walking down. And I had just had my fight or flight response mode going and I had, was super upset and I had flipped off the camera. So. And immediately after doing that, I got a lot of belittling, shaming, said, how could you, you know, I'm have to tell your parents. And I was terrified at that moment.
Margi Dehlin [00:21:59] Yeah.
Jake Bellenfant [00:21:59] So. And then I ended up getting grounded when I got home. So this was. I just remember that the messaging there Was, no, like, Jake, this isn't like you. What's going on? Can we talk about this? It just was straight into, you know, kind of feeling shame and feeling guilt about what I'd just done. So we get back and we had a huge spaghetti dinner, and for the ward, kind of to show our trip that we had had. And on the PowerPoint slides for that trip, he had put the picture of me flipping off the camera in front of the entire ward. All the children, the elderly, all the families were there, and it had shown on the screen, and immediately this. This was a huge moment for me because I was struggling so hard with feeling suicidal at that time, and that was one of the days that I really wanted to go and end my life. All trust had been pretty much destroyed by any leaders at that point in time and feeling like I. I am not in a safe environment here.
Margi Dehlin [00:23:08] Yeah.
Jake Bellenfant [00:23:09] And that's really hard for a kid to go through a lot of embarrassment and that public shaming.
Margi Dehlin [00:23:14] Shaming.
Jake Bellenfant [00:23:14] Yep.
Margi Dehlin [00:23:15] Yeah.
Jake Bellenfant [00:23:17] So that was, like, a huge environment. Sorry. Huge story as to, like, also why I struggled with so many trust issues, I think, with growing up.
Margi Dehlin [00:23:24] Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So would you say. How old would you say were you? Around 14, 16?
Jake Bellenfant [00:23:31] I was around 15.
Margi Dehlin [00:23:33] Around 15 for that.
Jake Bellenfant [00:23:34] Yep.
Margi Dehlin [00:23:35] And the first part of that story was kind of. So you witnessing your sister. Right. Go through some bullying. Right, right around. Basically makeup.
Jake Bellenfant [00:23:46] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:23:47] Something normative. Yep. Okay. But being kind of called out.
Gerardo Sumano [00:23:51] They were alluding that she might be lesbian because why would she be in wearing makeup on a girls camp.
Margi Dehlin [00:23:56] Girls camp.
Gerardo Sumano [00:23:57] Yeah.
Jake Bellenfant [00:23:57] Right, right. And then seeing.
Margi Dehlin [00:23:59] Interesting.
Jake Bellenfant [00:24:00] The Katy Perry song. So.
Margi Dehlin [00:24:01] Yeah. Okay, so you had that. And then you have followed up net then your own experience.
Jake Bellenfant [00:24:08] Right, right. And the boys around me, you know, would go out of their way to, you know, make jokes about being gay, go into a little more effeminate voices, because I thought it was funny. I had heard even leaders go into more effeminate voices as well. Just around that Prop 8 time, there was a lot of, like, just kind of demonizing of the LGBTQ community.
Margi Dehlin [00:24:30] Yeah.
Jake Bellenfant [00:24:31] And how, you know, they're all, like. I've heard they're all addicts. They all, you know, the marriages are a sham. It's. They're. They're battling. That's war on the family. And I had so, so many messages, you know.
Margi Dehlin [00:24:46] Yes. I am just feeling it. I am feeling it for, like, a developing human
Jake Bellenfant [00:24:53] even now.
Margi Dehlin [00:24:54] Yeah, I could imagine so.
Jake Bellenfant [00:24:57] And I remember even one. This was when I was 17. I remember one leader had even shown me a funny meme that was actually pornographic in nature. And it was, I remember it. And it said, you know, it said like hitting the bottle again. And it was of a man who was self stimulating with the glass bottle up his butt. So that was really hard for me to see, you know, and just I had so many messages and to be shown that as a, as a minor as well was, was.
Margi Dehlin [00:25:30] Oh my gosh. Wow, you really did. I'm. It's so. That is so hard to hear. Let me ask you, just going back to this thing where your, your photo on the showing the right. Did. Did no one. Did no adult find that problematic at all?
Jake Bellenfant [00:25:50] Oh, this, this is a hard topic. So, you know, I personally, the, the adult who did that, the person had personally apologized. I personally think that this specific leader is a little bit narcissistic and I, yeah, don't fully believe the apology. Yeah, my parents, although very upset, I think they were very, they weren't as worried about this. This is what's wrong about it is that I, I feel like my safety and my mental health didn't matter. It was about peace for the community and keeping everyone okay, but not really focused on me. There was no real follow up advocacy for how I was doing.
Margi Dehlin [00:26:31] Right.
Jake Bellenfant [00:26:33] And I remember from them just, you know, we talked a little bit about like how I would spend my time, you know, before bed just crying and feeling these intrusive thoughts constantly about wanting to end my life. And I would go on long runs with my ipod shuffle. I remember ever, pretty much every single night. And I would literally get to the end of the street and just want to walk in front of a car or truck pretty much every night. It was bad if I didn't have soccer practice and I was running by myself. It was pretty bad. And you know, this goes into what I want to talk about with, you know, parents and adults is really doing wellness checks on your youth. You know, you can seem like you have it all together or a kid could put on a, you know, a happy fake smile and you know, they could appear to be doing well in their sports or schooling. But you just never know. You never know who's really struggling. And so I think it's important that, and I think that people are getting better at that and we are educating our leaders and parents on mental illness. But I think it's important, so important,
Margi Dehlin [00:27:42] it's so important to advocate and take care. And part of that too, do you feel, is also being the type of parent that a child would tell right. If they weren't doing well. Right. Having the type of relationship and trying to sort of prioritize being the type of parent your. Your child would want to talk to.
Jake Bellenfant [00:28:04] Right? Yeah, exactly. So, you know, struggling with this ward, it had already kind of like my trust had been completely lost by this ward. The father of this specific leader was the. Also the stake president at the time, and he was much more difficult than I thought this other leader was. You know, funny story, he had, like, I remember at a young men's camp, the boys like to play playing cards with, like, spoons or Egyptian hand slap. And I remember one night, this was by the fire. He had been visiting the stake president visiting. And he threw the playing cards in the fire and started yelling at all the young men, you know, talking about how bad gambling was. And they had seen so many families get destroyed by gambling. And I was just like, is pretty terrifying, but I'm pretty funny looking back at it now. But yeah, this. This was the kind of the leaders that I had in my ward. So becoming 18, I had. I felt what was best for me was to move to the sister stake in the singles ward after graduating because of a complete loss of sense of trust for these adults and, you know, kind of feeling. Feeling like an adult that I could be safe with was hard. And kind of going into a little bit of my story, I actually was. My family is really close with the McCurdy family. So people who don't know that is Jeanette McC. She plays Sam on iCarly. So they were also in our ward and really close with them growing up with their brothers. And with her. She also podcasts as well. So she talks a lot about, you know, eating disorders, her time in Hollywood, Mormonism, finance. So definitely check her podcast channel out.
John Dehlin [00:29:48] We'll. We'll add that to the show notes.
Jake Bellenfant [00:29:50] Okay. And. But her mom was someone that. Because I knew that they had that experience in Hollywood, I knew that they were a little bit more progressive in their views. So she was one of the first adults that I felt comfortable with talking about my mental health issues and talking about coming out as being gay. So that's how that kind of plays into my story is just.
Margi Dehlin [00:30:11] Okay.
Jake Bellenfant [00:30:12] More safe with her than I did with the leaders that I was constantly surrounded around.
Margi Dehlin [00:30:16] Got it. And she did she. So was she in your homeward, or was she in the ward that you went to when you were 18?
Jake Bellenfant [00:30:22] No, she was a homeward.
Margi Dehlin [00:30:23] Yeah, so she was in the house.
Jake Bellenfant [00:30:25] We've been really close with them all growing up since I Was like five years old. Yeah. Really close family friends with them.
Margi Dehlin [00:30:29] Okay.
Jake Bellenfant [00:30:30] Got it all growing up.
Margi Dehlin [00:30:31] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:30:32] Well, what was her name again?
Jake Bellenfant [00:30:34] Jeanette McCurdy. She played Samuel Nickelodeon's iCarly.
John Dehlin [00:30:37] What's the podcast called? Do you know?
Jake Bellenfant [00:30:39] She just has a. She has a channel. Look up for Jeanette McCurdy on YouTube. She has her own channel.
John Dehlin [00:30:44] Okay. All right, thanks.
Jake Bellenfant [00:30:45] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:30:46] All right. So that sounds like it could be a good Mormons. I don't know if they're faithful, but that sounds like it could be a good Mormon Stories podcast episode.
Jake Bellenfant [00:30:53] She talks a little bit about Mormonism on her.
Gerardo Sumano [00:30:55] I don't think she believes anymore.
Jake Bellenfant [00:30:57] No.
Margi Dehlin [00:30:58] Yeah. Well, let me just say, like, makes sense why you didn't feel safe. And that is. It's one thing, you know, to have messages around not being safe. It's another thing to have messaging that makes you feel unsafe and then experiences your direct experience after experience of feeling safe in this place that you exist as a child. There's not a lot you can do about that.
Jake Bellenfant [00:31:23] Right, Exactly.
Margi Dehlin [00:31:25] Yeah.
Jake Bellenfant [00:31:26] And so, you know, going into this kind of carrying on my story, going into the sisters ward, it was actually a much better fit for me. The stake president actually has a transgender son, and the bishop was really, really kind. He was easy to talk to. So this was just. It was a healthy, better fit for me at that time.
Margi Dehlin [00:31:48] Wow.
Jake Bellenfant [00:31:50] Pre mission. Pre.
Margi Dehlin [00:31:51] Got it.
Jake Bellenfant [00:31:52] Right, right. And so before, you know, going on my mission, I had came out to the bishop. He was the first one that I kind of trusted, ecclesiastical leader wise, you know, to talk to about this in an. In a formal interview before going on my mission. And, you know, in order to get approved, I had to go through LDS Family Services. So which.
LDS Family Services and Conversion Therapy
Gerardo Sumano [00:32:18] Well, wait, so that. So while you're going through your interviews to receive a calling, you know, to apply for your mission.
Jake Bellenfant [00:32:27] Right, right.
Gerardo Sumano [00:32:28] They asked you that you need to go to lds?
Jake Bellenfant [00:32:31] They did, yes. Because I had admitted that I was gay. So that was something that they said I was going to go to LDS Family Services and receive therapy for. To get clearance for me to be able to go on a mission.
Gerardo Sumano [00:32:44] I've never heard of that. Have you, John?
Margi Dehlin [00:32:47] Wow.
Jake Bellenfant [00:32:47] Yeah. This was back in 2010, so quite a while ago.
Margi Dehlin [00:32:52] Okay.
Jake Bellenfant [00:32:53] Things have changed since then.
John Dehlin [00:32:54] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:32:54] Yeah. Okay.
Jake Bellenfant [00:32:57] So surrounding that, I had. We'll talk a little bit about therapy and the program that they had put me in, that's separate from that. So as far as the therapy goes, there was no sense of real. I was naive, 18, had no idea what therapy should look like. And, you know, it was funny, the kid that you had on last week, he talked about how his therapist had always started with a prayer and mine had also always began therapy with a prayer. And I remember on one instance, also a scripture reading.
Margi Dehlin [00:33:29] Oh, my God.
Jake Bellenfant [00:33:30] And looking back at that now, I'm like, oh, that's not, you know.
Margi Dehlin [00:33:33] Yes. Not a good sign.
Jake Bellenfant [00:33:35] No, no. And in these therapy sessions, there was no real mental health assessment. There was no PHQ9, there was no GAD7, no Columbia suicide Severity Scale rating, nothing talking about depression or anxiety. It all revolved around me being gay and be able to control my thoughts and control my actions. And that's all it focused on. And to make sure that I would be safe going on a mission, being around other men, having a companion. And so I could talk about some of the, you know, this is a sorry, content warning. Before I go on for a minute, some of the questions that I was asked prior to going on a mission was that I remember was, have you ever penetrated another man? Have you ever been penetrated by another man? Have you ever performed oral sex? Have you ever received oral sex? And then they would do. This is the scales I got was like, on a scale of 1 to 10 today, how attracted are you to men? You know, how much do you want to perform these acts? In addition with those questions? So they were really trying to.
Margi Dehlin [00:34:39] Wow.
Jake Bellenfant [00:34:39] And they also would throw in, like, scenarios like if. If a friend did this or if a companion had, you know, touched her hand, would you go in for a kiss or something like that? Like, just really kind of embarrassing stuff for me to talk about some boundaries. And so I, at the, you know, looking back on it, I'm like, this was not evidence based. This was not therapy. It was pretty damaging to me. And this was my first ever experience with the licensed professional.
John Dehlin [00:35:08] Wow.
Jake Bellenfant [00:35:09] So. So I had a little bit of a skewed view of what mental health treatment looks like.
Gerardo Sumano [00:35:16] I had a question, and I was wondering if the reason why maybe they referred you to LDS Family Services was because. Had you confessed to have done anything with a guy before? Or was it just like you confessed to your attractions and that. That's. That was it?
Jake Bellenfant [00:35:35] No, at that point, just to confess to my. About my attractions. Yeah.
Gerardo Sumano [00:35:39] Okay.
Jake Bellenfant [00:35:39] And also. And also struggles with, you know, porn and masturbation, which is common among young men.
John Dehlin [00:35:44] Okay, so something to that point, you would not. Is there anything you would want?
Jake Bellenfant [00:35:49] No, at that point? No. No. At that point, I had not had any sexual relations with other men because
John Dehlin [00:35:54] I'M just like, what's it like? You're just this serious, trying to be righteous, trying to go on a mission.
Jake Bellenfant [00:35:59] Right, Right.
John Dehlin [00:36:00] Asking you all these. Really.
Margi Dehlin [00:36:02] As if they're assuming explicit questions.
John Dehlin [00:36:04] Asking you all these super explicit questions. What was that like?
Gerardo Sumano [00:36:07] This was by lds. The questions by. Was by LDS Family Services. Right. Or was. Was them.
Jake Bellenfant [00:36:13] Right. Yeah, I was with. It was with the therapist with LDS Family Services.
Gerardo Sumano [00:36:18] Do they remember if they make you sign something that the therapist was able to communicate with the ecclesiastical leaders or.
Jake Bellenfant [00:36:25] They were. Yeah, they were, because I was trying to get clearance for my mission, so they were allowed to communicate with my ecclesiastical leaders. I do remember that. Um, sorry. So what was your question again about? I think John asked me, what was
John Dehlin [00:36:39] it like to have such graphic questions asked to a young, naive boy just trying to go on a mission.
Jake Bellenfant [00:36:43] Humiliating. Pretty embarrassing. Just kind of in shock, you know, I'd never been asked those kind of questions by anyone.
Margi Dehlin [00:36:54] Yeah.
Jake Bellenfant [00:36:55] So that was a. That was really damaging to my mental health.
Margi Dehlin [00:37:01] And also, probably trust still, like, you went in with already being. Right.
Jake Bellenfant [00:37:06] Right. Trust. Kind of feeling like, okay, I'm gonna get a sense of coping skills and therapy. You know, I don't know what that looks like, but let's go for it. And that's not what I was getting at the time. It was just, you know, I felt like it was. It was a kind of a sense of conversion therapy for me.
Margi Dehlin [00:37:22] Yeah.
Jake Bellenfant [00:37:23] To just maintain.
Margi Dehlin [00:37:25] Yeah.
Jake Bellenfant [00:37:28] And so the other program that they had me in was, like, one that the church was trying out was, like. It was a type of mentorship program. So I don't know if Evergreen had done this. I had binders on it, and I do not own them anymore. So I really wish that I remember the name of this program, but they had set me up with a guy in the singles ward. He was 29, and I was 18 at the time, who had done this before with other young men. And it was to kind of, like, build male relationships healthy in a healthy way. So I had three mentors, and two of them, I would say, are great friends of mine. Absolutely love them. Great. Outstanding guys. And this other man, I just kind of still have some questions for in the present. You know, looking back on it. We would hang out, and then he would take. Want to take me up to his room and in the living room and cuddle. And I thought that was, you know, as a young, you know, naive male, I was like, okay, I'll have physical affection. I'll cuddle. But, you know, looking back on that. Now I kind of see the power dynamics and how inappropriate that was at the time.
Gerardo Sumano [00:38:33] What was this for?
Jake Bellenfant [00:38:35] This was also a program that was with the singles word that I had been with in collaboration with a therapist that had been.
Gerardo Sumano [00:38:43] What was the program called?
Jake Bellenfant [00:38:45] I honestly cannot remember. I know it was. I know. It was like a mentorship program, though, where you were supposed to, you know, kind of hang out with other men and one on one and gain trust and gain healthy relationships with other men.
Gerardo Sumano [00:38:56] So it was for people who had same sex attraction, right?
Jake Bellenfant [00:39:01] Yep.
Gerardo Sumano [00:39:01] Okay.
Jake Bellenfant [00:39:02] Yeah.
Gerardo Sumano [00:39:02] And. Wow.
John Dehlin [00:39:04] So that's like North Star.
Jake Bellenfant [00:39:05] Yeah, yeah, that's what I was saying. It sound. It sounds similar to what something that like Evergreen North Star would be.
Gerardo Sumano [00:39:10] Well, these are the years when Evergreen is thriving, you know, and conversion therapy is at its peak with. In Mormonism. And really the church is embracing these ideas of homosexuality is caused by a distant relationship with the father and maybe not really good connections with males while growing up and maybe too close relationship with girls and that's what made you gay. So now you have to repair your male relationships.
John Dehlin [00:39:42] And.
Gerardo Sumano [00:39:43] And I imagine that's what this program that you were attending was about, right?
Jake Bellenfant [00:39:48] Like, correct. I agree. Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:39:52] So this just feels so aggressive.
Jake Bellenfant [00:39:55] It does, yeah. A lot for me to go through church, through my adolescence and life.
Gerardo Sumano [00:40:00] You would meet at a church. Sorry, you would meet at a church or where would.
Jake Bellenfant [00:40:05] We would go out in the community and do activities. Yeah.
Gerardo Sumano [00:40:07] But like, was it a church sponsored program or was it like nothing. It had nothing to do with the church. Kind of like.
Jake Bellenfant [00:40:14] No, it did because it was set up by. I remember, set up by my bishop and.
Gerardo Sumano [00:40:18] Oh, yeah.
Jake Bellenfant [00:40:19] In conjunction otherwise.
Margi Dehlin [00:40:20] Therapy.
Jake Bellenfant [00:40:21] Yeah, in conjunction with therapy. Yes. Yeah. Because I would have had no idea to look for something like ever going to North Star.
Margi Dehlin [00:40:27] Exactly.
Gerardo Sumano [00:40:28] I didn't know this was going on because this is a big deal because the church has always tried to distance itself from. Oh, conversion therapy. That was evergreen. Even though we've been able to prove that the church gave funds to them, they still try to say, well, that was them, not us. But the fact that bishops are creating this program and allowing it to be in words and stuff. I mean, that's the church promoting conversion therapy.
John Dehlin [00:40:55] Yeah. It's like, oh, you're gay. Okay. We've got this thing you go to where you cuddle with men so that we can fix you so that you won't be gay and you can marry a woman and.
Gerardo Sumano [00:41:02] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:41:03] Is that right?
Jake Bellenfant [00:41:04] Sounds about right.
John Dehlin [00:41:05] Yeah.
Jake Bellenfant [00:41:06] And it felt. And it felt Also really weird for me because this guy at the time had a girlfriend who he had, like, had become married to. So it also felt, like, really awkward to me. I'm like, okay, you're already in a relationship. Why are you becoming any sort of physical way with me?
John Dehlin [00:41:18] So your bishop's referring you to a married man to cuddle with?
Jake Bellenfant [00:41:21] No, he was in my singles or he was not married yet. He had a girlfriend at the time, but he did marry the. This particular girlfriend. So I still felt guilty, you know.
Margi Dehlin [00:41:28] Yeah.
Jake Bellenfant [00:41:29] In a sense of, like, awkward. Like, okay, but, you know, you're in a relationship. This is really weird.
John Dehlin [00:41:34] Just to be clear, there's no evidence in the world that cuddling with another man makes you less gay.
Jake Bellenfant [00:41:40] Right?
John Dehlin [00:41:40] Right.
Margi Dehlin [00:41:41] Definitely not. Evidence based.
Jake Bellenfant [00:41:43] No.
Margi Dehlin [00:41:44] Research based. Yes. Okay.
Preparing for and Serving a Mission
Jake Bellenfant [00:41:49] So I guess that brings me going on to kind of back to where you were at was around the mission time I had.
Margi Dehlin [00:41:53] Right.
Jake Bellenfant [00:41:54] I had gone to Jamaica. So.
Margi Dehlin [00:41:57] And was your suffering. Can I just drop in with sort of your suffering point around this time? So, you know, clearly you end up going on a mission.
Jake Bellenfant [00:42:07] Right.
Margi Dehlin [00:42:08] But, like, what are you. What are you feeling as you're like, prior to going on a mission? That process, like, what's your suffering level and how. How that. That internal self, how are you coping?
Jake Bellenfant [00:42:22] I don't know how I got through that time. Honestly, I don't know how I'm still alive today. I'm really. I feel really lucky to be here today. I felt like I had been the oldest of four and wanting to please my parents and my leaders. We had a lot of young men growing up at my time that were also going on missions. So I felt like I did not want to be the black sheep. I felt a lot of social pressures.
Margi Dehlin [00:42:47] That's right.
Jake Bellenfant [00:42:48] To carry on. You know, we all got our Eagle Scouts. We were that kind of award. So I felt like I needed to continue being the perfect son and go on. And that's just kind of what I had my mind set on was like, oh, I need to be perfect. This is a part of being perfect is the next step of going on. And maybe if I'm more righteous, I'll be able to one day not be gay. That was. It was all focused on not being gay. That was in my mind all the time anymore. Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:43:19] Wow. Okay. All right. And so then you end up being called on a mission. You go to Jamaica.
Jake Bellenfant [00:43:25] Right, Right.
Margi Dehlin [00:43:26] Okay.
Jake Bellenfant [00:43:27] Jamaica. I. It was a bit of a love hate relationship with Jamaica. I loved, you know, the humanitarian aid experience we did building you Know, chicken coops and gardens for members there. I absolutely love that. You know, doing English and reading lessons for them who couldn't read and write, but, you know, teaching people that are really in poverty about tithing.
Margi Dehlin [00:43:55] Right.
Jake Bellenfant [00:43:56] I really felt guilty about it. Didn't feel right to me.
Margi Dehlin [00:44:00] Yeah.
Jake Bellenfant [00:44:02] But, yeah, it was a bit of an experience. And I was struggling with my mental health on the mission, and really at that time, like, feeling like, do I actually believe this or not? And I had. I was a really super straight A student. I had read all the books, everything that I needed to. I was constantly praying. And that was really a pivotal moment as to, like, do I really believe what I'm preaching at this time? Yeah.
Gerardo Sumano [00:44:30] I'm so sorry to maybe go back just a little bit, but I thought this was an important thing to address because there is a comment by someone named Justin Hyatt Novak, and I just went and looked up his Facebook and it looks like he's currently serving as a missionary. That's what his profile on Facebook says. But he says regarding your question, regarding the questions that you were asked to get clearance to serve a mission. He says, well, those are just common sense, because he says, you can't be gay and serve. He says, so the questions are embarrassing stuff. The church was making sure you weren't going to molest or rape a companion. So this guy, meaning you, chose to get offended by questions that he got asked. If you choose to get offended by what someone says or ask you in the church, you in the church and you leave because of that, that's pretty childish. So I was not going to highlight
Jake Bellenfant [00:45:40] making a lot of assumptions and see a lot of stigma around.
Gerardo Sumano [00:45:45] Yeah. And.
Jake Bellenfant [00:45:46] And we gay and what that means.
Margi Dehlin [00:45:48] I was gonna say that those questions have anything to do with rape or.
Jake Bellenfant [00:45:52] Right, right, right.
Margi Dehlin [00:45:54] Sorry.
Gerardo Sumano [00:45:55] And so we had Colby Sorensen here, who was a missionary just recently, and he told. He was telling us about how in. At least in the two missions where he served, the culture and the way missionaries today talk about LGBT issues is pretty disgusting. So that's why I thought maybe it would be a good opportunity to whoever is listening out there and maybe has this ideas, including LDS missionaries, to maybe just respond to. Why would this questions be out of line, you know?
John Dehlin [00:46:38] Yeah, yeah. Because there's another way to ask. It is what's it like to be a gay, young Mormon man on a mission, living with other men for the first time? And implicit in those questions are, well, of course you're gonna rape and abuse your companions, but that's why. Why wouldn't all heterosexual men rape people? Like, it's so. So, I mean, maybe let's just. Instead of trying to cool. Well, instead of getting. I mean, I'm heated up by the offensiveness of those questions, maybe just talk about what that's like for you and what that was like for you, and then why those questions don't really make sense from your point of view.
Jake Bellenfant [00:47:16] The questions were confusing to me because I was really young and naive and had not engaged in any of those behaviors. I was a really good boy. And so to hear these kind of explicit questions right off the bat was really demeaning and humiliating. And it was like I. I felt pretty innocent at that time. I was like, what. What's going on? I'm kind of confused. And. And I remember kind of going back kind of on your comments, John. I remember there was a story told about, like, it's. So it's okay to punch your companion in the face if they are gay or try to make a move on you. Was. Isn't that a story?
John Dehlin [00:47:46] That's.
Gerardo Sumano [00:47:46] Yeah, we came back here.
Jake Bellenfant [00:47:48] Okay. Yeah, I remember that. So I guess I had some messaging, I guess. Yeah, that's hard one to respond.
Gerardo Sumano [00:47:54] And as a Jew, that are very informed and very involved with mental health and how mental health professionals should, you know, navigate therapy and that. What's wrong with a therapist, you know, crossing boundaries and asking those type of questions and making a lot of assumptions that maybe are not in line with why. What psychological associations would teach about LGBT people and ethics?
Jake Bellenfant [00:48:21] Right.
Gerardo Sumano [00:48:21] Yeah.
Jake Bellenfant [00:48:22] Well, I feel like, especially since I had never even had a good psychiatric evaluation done to cover even just the basics of, like, my depression, anxiety and suicidal ideation that I felt like that's inappropriate to even go there because that's a pretty honed in, specialized area for people to focus on is sexuality. Yeah, sex therapy.
Margi Dehlin [00:48:41] Yeah, that's right.
John Dehlin [00:48:43] But I mean, I think implicit in the question is like, oh, you've got male companions, so you, like.
Gerardo Sumano [00:48:47] Right.
John Dehlin [00:48:48] Want to make out with everyone, you know?
Jake Bellenfant [00:48:50] Right.
Margi Dehlin [00:48:52] Have no control.
Jake Bellenfant [00:48:53] You. You would have no control.
Margi Dehlin [00:48:55] And there's this sense of like, I guess if. If you feel attracted to a. That you would also not be a risk. A respectful human being. Right. Like you would want to abuse someone. Because I just don't think we have those assumptions about heterosexual relationships around attraction and how attraction works. Are we animals? Are we just, like, if we feel attracted to someone, we're going to go pummel them so that we, you know, so.
John Dehlin [00:49:25] So what was that like? Having. Having roommates that were.
Jake Bellenfant [00:49:29] Oh, that like that wasn't even an issue.
John Dehlin [00:49:32] Yeah. So what was.
Jake Bellenfant [00:49:34] No. Yeah. I've. I felt pretty controlled. And you're not even. Not even attracted everyone. I'm pretty particularly turns out. So.
Margi Dehlin [00:49:43] No.
Jake Bellenfant [00:49:44] Not pretty much a non issue there for me anyway.
John Dehlin [00:49:48] Yeah.
Gerardo Sumano [00:49:49] And that's something that John have asked me and asked me I think on my interview too.
Jake Bellenfant [00:49:55] Right.
Gerardo Sumano [00:49:55] And it's the same as Jake. I had never had an issue where like I was attract. Super attracted to a companion or fell in love with that companion. Like anything close to. To that.
Jake Bellenfant [00:50:06] Yeah, none of that for me either.
John Dehlin [00:50:08] So I think that's what's assumed.
Jake Bellenfant [00:50:11] Right.
John Dehlin [00:50:11] Is that you just want to make out with everything. Everything you see.
Jake Bellenfant [00:50:15] Right.
John Dehlin [00:50:15] Or something. Right.
Jake Bellenfant [00:50:16] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:50:17] Yeah.
Jake Bellenfant [00:50:17] And this just goes on to this. This messaging that you get in this high demand group of what it's like to be gay growing up. And there's harmful messaging everywhere. So.
Margi Dehlin [00:50:27] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:50:28] Wow.
Margi Dehlin [00:50:28] There are so many assumptions there that I really want to go into, but I'm not going to.
Jake Bellenfant [00:50:33] Right.
Margi Dehlin [00:50:33] Just around how attraction works for human beings. Human beings. Just a human being thing. Yeah. Okay. So.
Coming Out and Navigating Family Relationships
Jake Bellenfant [00:50:44] So let's talk about me coming back home for my mission.
Margi Dehlin [00:50:47] Let's do that. And that's kind of where the catalyst. Right. For change if we were going to.
Gerardo Sumano [00:50:51] Kind of.
Margi Dehlin [00:50:52] Right. This is where it kind of hits for you. Where something in your mental health it hits and then you kind of. So tell us about that.
Jake Bellenfant [00:51:01] Yeah. I had come home from my mission and that was the point in time that I had came out to my parents. And I absolutely love my parents. They've been very supportive of me and my marriage. But I remember even my mom at the time she had. Her initial reaction was tearful. She was worried about her friends and how this would be portrayed. She was a little bit embarrassed. And I always had this sense even growing up, but being compared to the other sons. And that was really hard on me growing up. So I think at that point I still felt unsafe in SoCal and I had moved out with one of my best mission friends here in Utah. So that's how I kind of ended up in Utah. Studying at UVU is where I began kind of my Utah journey. And that was kind of the. Once I was out in the college environment, my, you know, moment for change is noticing. Like what did I just go through?
Margi Dehlin [00:51:57] Giving you a minute.
Jake Bellenfant [00:51:58] Right?
Margi Dehlin [00:51:59] Giving you space.
Jake Bellenfant [00:51:59] Giving me a minute to think and some space. Yep, got it. And that's the point in time where I actually sought help Myself, I had used the school services, and that was my first ever, you know, real great interaction with a therapist was through uvu. Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:52:18] Okay. So at uvu, you were able to actually, it sounds like, have an experience with a therapist who was like a fully licensed, ethical.
Jake Bellenfant [00:52:30] Yes.
Margi Dehlin [00:52:31] Okay.
Jake Bellenfant [00:52:31] We got straight into. And covering my anxiety, depression.
Gerardo Sumano [00:52:34] I went.
Jake Bellenfant [00:52:35] We got. I got CBT therapy, which was really great for me, learning coping skills, how to live healthy and for, you know, in my intrusive thoughts at the time, you know, after having a minute to breathe and get away from that, all those had kind of gone away. It was interesting after being, you know, stuck in this environment.
Margi Dehlin [00:52:56] Confined, high control.
Jake Bellenfant [00:52:58] Yeah. And that highly controlled environment that once I had been escaped from, that it was not struggling with those intrusive thoughts as much. So.
Margi Dehlin [00:53:06] Yeah. Okay. Yeah, so that makes sense. Okay. So you come home from your mission and you described kind of this. This. Would you say, did you have a feeling of, like, letting down your mom? Did you feel like you had let down your mom in that way, or was it more feeling peers? Like that social pressure component, that conformity that's so pervasive of that external kind of. Within Mormonism.
Jake Bellenfant [00:53:37] All of it.
Margi Dehlin [00:53:37] All of it. It was all put together. And. And would you say when you went ahead. I'm just going to notice, by the way, you've made some key choices and advocacy for yourself in moving away from your homeward, first of all, and shifting to that other ward where you can. When you were 18, and now, again, coming off your mission, having this sense of getting out of that environment and away, like those two things were. So it feels like. Like almost life preservers at that time just to keep you above water for another minute.
Jake Bellenfant [00:54:13] Exactly. Yeah, I do feel that way.
Margi Dehlin [00:54:16] Yeah.
Jake Bellenfant [00:54:16] And they were the right choices at the time.
Margi Dehlin [00:54:18] Yeah. Okay. So would you say your suffering had reached before this catalyst for change where you sought? You went to uvu, you went with this. This friend. Right. And you went ahead and started meeting with a therapist. Was your suffering. Was it pretty bad?
Mental Health Crisis and Early Therapy
Jake Bellenfant [00:54:35] Yeah, there was a lot of. A lot of intense therapy sessions and really talking about everything that we've just gone through and how I'm going to move forward. And so that was really my kind of moment in my mental health, you know, journey for actually beginning to take care of myself.
Margi Dehlin [00:54:51] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:54:51] What were the dilemmas you were exploring? Because usually when people feel suicidal, they feel stuck.
Margi Dehlin [00:54:56] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:54:57] That they, you know, And I also just know that with the Family acceptance Project research, that if. If a youth feels rejected or highly Rejected or even not fully embraced by their family members that suicidality and depression and, and even unhealthy self medication can, can really skyrocket. So not getting the family support that maybe you wanted or needed. I wonder how that was for you. So what were the main issues were making you feel stuck for feeling.
Jake Bellenfant [00:55:30] For feeling stuck in the sense of. In my family or just your anxiety and depression? Oh, I think yeah. Having to, having to please my parents. Having to live, you know, up to expectations and to carry on with what was expected of me I think was where a lot of that stemmed from. So I think had I had not had that orthodoxy environment, I don't know if I would have those struggles of anxiety, depression, si as bad as I did. Yeah, I think it definitely was a huge factor into me struggling with mental health.
Gerardo Sumano [00:56:06] So were you worried about marriage and what your life was going to look like after your mission and you know, eternal families and on our mission you're constantly, you know, that's the one of the main messages you're teaching people and how is that going to work with on your life when you are gay? And I've never thought about it that way. Just right now that John said LGBT people can feel stuck in the church because there's no progression. Like you can't achieve the highest level of the celestial kingdom. You can't have high up callings because you can't be a bishop, you can't be a stake president, you can't have a lot of callings if you are not married. So you're stuck in like no progression kind of thing. So it was that any of that on your mind?
Jake Bellenfant [00:57:02] There was, yeah. I just, you know, facing a lot of stigma and messaging about around being gay is that, you know, you can't truly be happy. You know, there's. If you do get married, it's not a real marriage, you know, what, what is life going to look like? Are you going to become a drug addict or an alcoholic? You know, if you do this, are you gonna get sick and get HIV right away? You know, there was just so much messaging around what is going to happen for my life and yeah, the sense. But I kind of felt at that time that I knew the route that I wanted to head and something that my parents always did say is that they actually would prefer if I were to leave that I would one day get married to a man. They did actually prefer that.
John Dehlin [00:57:46] So.
Margi Dehlin [00:57:47] Interesting.
John Dehlin [00:57:47] Yeah, that's rare actually.
Jake Bellenfant [00:57:51] It is. And so my, so personal phone, my dad's, my uncle is actually Gay and he has unfortunately not been able to have good outcomes after coming out as gay. So I think that they saw what he was going through and they didn't want that for me. So I think that could have affected it as well.
Margi Dehlin [00:58:13] So.
John Dehlin [00:58:14] Yeah, I just have to say that like in Mormonism, you, you often. Because Mormons tend to hang around active believing Mormons. A gay Mormon youth wouldn't have a lot of healthy role models for like gay Mormon who, who left the church and found a long term committed partner and had a great job and became a respected member of the community. It's more like cousin who went off to San Francisco and you never heard from him again. Or family kind of, you know, uncle that lives across the country and has no connection with his family members. And maybe a lot of negative cautionary tales. But where would you ever pick up it as a 20 something Mormon, gay Mormon youth, like role models that could be like, oh no, you got this. You can have a great education, great career, great love, great companionship, positive outcome. Super positive. Where would you even have an idea that that were possible, let alone a role model?
Jake Bellenfant [00:59:09] Exactly. Yeah. And that's what I hope to change. That's why we're here. You know, Gerardo and I both.
Margi Dehlin [00:59:16] That's right.
Jake Bellenfant [00:59:17] Both married and both living good lives, living healthy, becoming successful and thriving.
John Dehlin [00:59:24] But at the time, but at the
Jake Bellenfant [00:59:25] time there was none of that for me. Right.
Margi Dehlin [00:59:27] That's right. That's right. And something that I was noticing when you were talking about first going into therapy at UVU and just around your themes, right around your parents and you know, kind of that perfectionism, that outward achieving kind of self is just, you know, the level at which, you know how you were talking about the hollowness that you had this hollowness. It's like you're. You're showing up for everyone else, you know, like.
Jake Bellenfant [01:00:00] Right.
Margi Dehlin [01:00:00] You're showing up to get love and to make everyone happy. But in the end you're on the inside. It's the, like you're taking the hit for all of it. Very much so. Right. That's what I'm feeling from you as you're going into therapy is just like a shell of a human that has really tried to love and get love in the way you were taught and shown and feeling just absolutely like in that cycle of self betrayal to have to be there. Which that's why it feels like that space was so important. Would you agree? Moving and having that space and time to, to look at your life so far.
Jake Bellenfant [01:00:38] It is. Yeah. You know, you keep. You are kept so busy, and it's. Yeah, under a bit of, like, time control. You know, we at an early morning seminary and soccer and, you know, honors classes and, you know, then scouts and youth programs and firesides. You are on the go all the time that you never. I felt like I never really had time to just, like, get away from it all.
Margi Dehlin [01:01:01] Sit down, be with yourself.
Jake Bellenfant [01:01:02] Yeah, be with myself. Yeah.
Gerardo Sumano [01:01:05] Great.
Margi Dehlin [01:01:05] Okay. So you. You're having this experience now with a therapist.
Jake Bellenfant [01:01:09] Right.
Margi Dehlin [01:01:09] And what's that like for you now, this time around?
Jake Bellenfant [01:01:13] Very different. It was great. I felt heard. I felt like she was able to focus on the right things and was able to teach me coping skills that I needed. I was able to talk about all these things we've just talked about with her and work on my interpersonal relationships with my family members, be able to set boundaries. And. Yeah, from there, I felt like my mental health really skyrocketed. From there, we talked. I got really active into weightlifting and took care of my physical health that way. So there was just. I got a lot of good skills from her, a lot of mindfulness techniques as well.
John Dehlin [01:01:53] Ooh.
Margi Dehlin [01:01:54] I'm gonna ask more about this because I almost feel like we're kind of now in the rebuilding phase.
Jake Bellenfant [01:01:58] Right.
Margi Dehlin [01:01:58] John, what did you want to say so really quickly?
Finding Affirming Support and Leaving the Church
John Dehlin [01:02:01] This is at uvu, correct?
Jake Bellenfant [01:02:03] Right, correct.
John Dehlin [01:02:04] So one of the big problems people have is something you alluded to in Utah, which is, yeah, you go to a therapist, but it's the one that your bishop recommends, and it's someone who's tied to, like, LDS Family Services. They start, you know, like you mentioned before, they start therapy with prayer, and their whole goal is to keep you from being who you are and to try and push you into an orthodox Mormon mindset. And I think a key decision you made is to go with a licensed ethical therapist who is culturally competent in LGBT healing and growth and who wasn't going to tell you to pay to pray and fast and have faith in Jesus and start your therapy sessions with the prayer and become more righteous, and then you can just marry a woman. You're. You're choosing a secular, you know, whatever their personal religious beliefs are. A secular therapist whose allegiance is to their code of ethics.
Margi Dehlin [01:03:04] That's right.
John Dehlin [01:03:05] And to professionalism. And that's a. There's a. There's a lot of Mormons in Utah or Idaho or other places that. That don't find therapy, and that's bad. And then there's a whole block that do find therapy, but they find an incompetent, unethical therapist. And I just have to highlight that what you chose, you were able to find, probably through the UVU counseling center, I'm assuming.
Jake Bellenfant [01:03:27] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:03:28] Is a, you know, and usually even at BYU Provo, I don't know about. By Idaho, even a BYU Provo, the therapists there respect their codes of ethics and they provide empirical based, evidence based ethical treatment. And so I'm just happy you finally got that, because that's what you need and that's what so many people need. Need.
Jake Bellenfant [01:03:50] Exactly. Yeah. And this therapist was amazing. Very. No, I don't. You know, I'm not supposed to know what upbringing this person has or what biases, but there was none of that sort of pressure of feeling like this, you know, this has to go in conjecture with the religion. And it felt. It felt safe, which is what I needed. Ethical, safe, and evidence based.
Margi Dehlin [01:04:13] So was that. So was that one of the first places that you experienced safety, just thinking about your upbringing and how much of it safe?
Jake Bellenfant [01:04:24] Yes, I felt pretty safe with her. And that was. That's a huge thing for, you know, our LGBTQ youth is a sense of feeling like you can be in a safe space and you can trust those adults and stuff around you. So I hope that, you know, people who are active in the church hearing this, you know, advocate to make changes in your local wards and be that adult that a kid would approach and feel comfortable talking about their mental health with you or.
Margi Dehlin [01:04:57] Or advocate or.
Jake Bellenfant [01:04:58] Right.
Margi Dehlin [01:04:59] Openly.
Jake Bellenfant [01:05:00] Right. For the youth. So, yeah, they, you know, younger generations, millennials, raising up these kids, and right now they have a lot of. I feel like they can make a huge change to how previous generations have done things, and they could create safe spaces.
Margi Dehlin [01:05:19] That's right. Like one person. Just the power of one person in an environment.
Jake Bellenfant [01:05:25] Right.
Margi Dehlin [01:05:25] That can be safe. Yeah. Okay, before we. Can I just pause for a minute before we. We're about to kind of head into, I feel like, the rebuilding. But can I ask you a quick question around grief and loss at this time? Okay. So in thinking about that minute that you take a pause, right. And now you're at UVU and you're starting to kind of feel support and safety, did you have moments of feeling grief and loss around the boy, the boy growing up, and what you had wished you had felt or been able to, or relationships, or did you have any backward grief, or did you have feelings of grief and loss come up? And if so, you know, what was it around and how did you grieve that loss I did.
Jake Bellenfant [01:06:16] It was really difficult. You feel like when you leave, you lose a sense of your community. Your relationships are not as authentic as they were when you were active in the church. You always feel a sense of, like, them trying to get you back in, you know, bring it back into the fold, per se, and. But some of them have been authentic as well. But I feel like my being. I had lost that person. I had to say goodbye to that person. And, yeah, it was a. It was a sense of grief.
Margi Dehlin [01:06:48] Okay, so almost a grief around, like a self.
Jake Bellenfant [01:06:54] Yep.
Margi Dehlin [01:06:54] A self that you had to be for a time.
Jake Bellenfant [01:06:57] Right.
Margi Dehlin [01:06:57] Is that right? And then giving birth to sort of a new being.
Jake Bellenfant [01:07:01] Reborn. Yep. And taking on adult life and becoming who I want to be. Set. Set my own values, set my own ethics and.
Margi Dehlin [01:07:10] Yeah.
Jake Bellenfant [01:07:11] You know, my own morality. On.
Margi Dehlin [01:07:14] Yeah.
Jake Bellenfant [01:07:14] I want to be as an adult growing up.
Margi Dehlin [01:07:16] So what did grief and loss look like in that at that time? How did it appear to you?
Jake Bellenfant [01:07:23] That's a hard question. I think that.
Margi Dehlin [01:07:27] I think culturally, oftentimes too, it's not something that's really openly acknowledged. We are more apt to see, like, the grief that comes from a death of a person versus a death of a piece of ourselves or a part of our identity, or even loss that we experience from a childhood we wish we had had or a love, you know, from parents during a pivotal time that we wish we had. Those are. They're actually called something. I can't remember if it's intangible griefs or it's something like that, which are hard because we. They're not acknowledged culturally, but still their griefs that are equally, you know, deep and true.
Jake Bellenfant [01:08:11] There are so many. Yeah. So looking.
Margi Dehlin [01:08:16] Yeah. Just at the grief and loss. Do you remember what it felt like? Did you feel heavy? Did you cry? Was processing with the therapist huge. As. As a way to process that.
Jake Bellenfant [01:08:26] A lot of it was processing. And, yeah, I did. It was. It was really sad. It was really sad to say that this, you know, I'm going to leave this person behind and I'm leaving this community behind, and I need to, you know, start fresh and start anew, so.
Margi Dehlin [01:08:38] To save yourself.
Jake Bellenfant [01:08:39] Right, Right. To make sure that I would be okay and be mentally safe. So. And a bit about grief and loss, you know, carrying on a bit in my story, is that my mom actually did pass away. So, you know, very similar to the submarine officer that you guys had on. I remember his, you know, his mom had got pancreatic cancer, and that's what my mom had. This was Right before I started my nursing program at the University of Utah. So I had to, you know, we had a short time with her by the time she got diagnosed to the time she passed away. And, you know, she got to meet my husband a month before she passed and was really kind and loving and supportive of us and to him. And that was really hard to see her go and a sense of grief, you know, with losing her. And also given this, like, map of reality and worldview that you're given growing up. And if those beliefs differ, I'm looking at. What does that look like when greeting my mom?
Margi Dehlin [01:09:43] Exactly. Yeah.
Jake Bellenfant [01:09:45] You know, where is she? I don't, I don't necessarily, you know, we don't know if there's an afterlife or not. I'm more in the agnostic. Agnostic theist belief system where, you know, I'm okay with having her. Having her spiritual and the energy she had in this life touched me and move forward. But it's, It's. It could be difficult because you have a sense of what's going to happen, and if you don't agree with those things or don't believe in them, that's. It's a. I guess I revisited that sense of grief when I. When she passed away.
Margi Dehlin [01:10:19] Yes.
Gerardo Sumano [01:10:21] I'm just interested in hearing more about. How were you able to. I mean, you come back from a mission, you go to uvu, you start taking therapy. How. How did you get to the point of being more like an agnostic side? You know, did you go through a. A faith crisis?
Jake Bellenfant [01:10:44] I did, yes.
Gerardo Sumano [01:10:45] A lot of, I mean, for, for me was a process where, like, I was living authentically while still believing in the church. So I was still. I was already. I was dating, you know, I got engaged, and me and my current husband, we still believed in the church. But did you have. Was it different for you? Did you have to kind of make peace with the church's teachings and kind of leave that aside, and then you started living authentically after that, or how did it work out for you?
Jake Bellenfant [01:11:16] I did. They went hand in hand. We're not going to go into a lot of, like, the faith crises, deconstruction stuff in this episode, but I went through, you know, reading. Went dig down into history.
Gerardo Sumano [01:11:26] Okay. Because that's not. Honestly. Yeah, go ahead.
Jake Bellenfant [01:11:29] You know, and had come to my own conclusions about truth claims that separately from my own mental health journey.
Margi Dehlin [01:11:37] Wow.
Jake Bellenfant [01:11:39] And also when I especially kind of revisited it and started learning more about, you know, Stephen Hasson, who I'm really
Margi Dehlin [01:11:46] big fan of, and he's key to your rebuilding, right?
Jake Bellenfant [01:11:49] Yeah, kind of process. Yeah. More so learning about like undue influence, thought reform tactics and, you know, recognizing that in my life. So I felt like that was really huge. And that happened more so actually at the beginning of the pandemic when I went to NYU as a travel nurse in the beginning to go take care of the patient. COVID patients in Manhattan. And at that time, you know, everything was shut down. So I had a lot of free time when I wasn't working and had a lot of time to kind of research. And that's how I would kind of find his. His freedom of mind.org, i think is his website and had read his books Combating Cult Mind Control and Freedom of Mind.
Margi Dehlin [01:12:31] Yep.
Jake Bellenfant [01:12:32] So I definitely recommend people read those.
Margi Dehlin [01:12:34] Yes. And I'm gonna pause you there and we're gonna pick that up thread because I want to go back a second because what I'm hearing that Gerardo also kind of brought out is that basically this UVU time, it seems like you're deconstructing a lot. You're having like, a lot of towers go down. Meaning, like, right, You're. You have kind of faith going down.
Jake Bellenfant [01:12:56] Right.
Margi Dehlin [01:12:56] You have identity tower going down and who you are, you have relationship tower that you're trying to rebuild and. Right. Renegotiate. Like, it feels like you've. You are reconstructing from the ground up in a lot of areas. Yeah.
Jake Bellenfant [01:13:11] Effort in every area of my life, almost from what I had known, I felt like I had to reconstruct. Like we had talked about my own, you know, ethics and morality and what goals I. And what kind of person did I want to be in a sense of. Also, what do I believe now?
Margi Dehlin [01:13:25] Yeah.
Jake Bellenfant [01:13:25] After going through a faith crises and transition.
Margi Dehlin [01:13:28] Yeah. And how was just to revisit the safety thing? Because I think you. It feels like so much of your life you did feel unsafe, even with people who you on some level should have been able to trust. So was recreating safety for yourself in yourself part of that? Like, how do I feel safe in my body for myself? How do I sort of. Was that a key part in relationship. It sounds like to the therapist, but also in relationship to yourself.
Jake Bellenfant [01:14:02] Yeah. To find a sense of safety. I think that as an adult, I've moved forward where if I felt like people, you know, were going to be harmful to me or toxic, I just. I don't have to be around them anymore because I'm not in a high demand group where you're forced to Be around them.
Margi Dehlin [01:14:18] Exactly.
Jake Bellenfant [01:14:19] And I'm going to make authentic relationships with who I'm drawn to and who speaks to me spiritually.
Margi Dehlin [01:14:25] That's right. Because now you do control your environment. I do much more. I love that. I love that. Okay, so can I go back real quick to your mom?
Gerardo Sumano [01:14:33] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:14:34] As well. So can you tell me for that particular tower of just. It feels like this is existential and it's highly, highly personal. Right. When you lose someone that you love. So what was that experience like for you? When you don't have the belief, when you don't have the answers. Right. That can feel so reassuring. So what was it like for you to watch someone you love leave without answers? What did that feel like? Because for many people this is one of their biggest fears. Like coming out of. That's why we give it its own category for a potential thriving is for some people. They're like, I just don't wanna. I really worry for when I lose my mom or when I lose my dad. Right. Or. And so just how did not having the answers. How did that do you think change your experience with losing someone you love?
Jake Bellenfant [01:15:42] This is really difficult for me to
Margi Dehlin [01:15:43] talk about and you don't have to answer too.
Jake Bellenfant [01:15:46] No.
Margi Dehlin [01:15:47] With regard to this, you can always pass.
Jake Bellenfant [01:15:48] I think for me, you know, seeing her pass away. She passed away in her home and I want to say that I was focused on respecting her beliefs and I even had saying a couple of hymns to her that she liked and I didn't, I don't think I wanted to focus on that so much at that time.
Margi Dehlin [01:16:10] Yeah.
Jake Bellenfant [01:16:11] And for me, I knew that everything was going to be okay. Even with my own belief system, I felt at peace with her passing. It was really hard to lose her. She was only 54 and all of us were really young. I'm the oldest, I'm only 30 now. So we lost her really young and that was really hard. But yeah, no, I felt at peace and I don't, I don't feel like my beliefs differing affected how you showed up. Right, right.
Margi Dehlin [01:16:43] I love how you showed up because what I hear is you kind of showed up in her language and it was about her.
Jake Bellenfant [01:16:49] Yeah, it was. Yeah. And people of all beliefs, you know, need to be respected.
Gerardo Sumano [01:16:54] So.
Margi Dehlin [01:16:55] Yeah.
Jake Bellenfant [01:16:56] And I, I, we had a really supportive and amazing funeral for her with the LDS community. They were amazing and. But you know, my beliefs differ and I, you know, don't. I, I don't know to say if life goes on after this, but I know that I connect to her spiritually, every day, in the, in the energy and what she taught me and how I want to be. She really was a loving, kind person, and I think she really represented Christ like values.
Margi Dehlin [01:17:28] So overall, yeah, beautiful.
John Dehlin [01:17:31] Were you ever able to get from her? I guess when you came out to her first, she was disappointed. Is that what you said? Were you ever able to get, like, I know that she was able to see you with your partner, but she ever tried to communicate to you in some way, like full unconditional love and acceptance, or was she not able to offer that? And regardless, did you feel closure in, in that regard of kind of full acceptance and unconditional love from her?
Jake Bellenfant [01:17:59] I think that that closure, I, I, I still would want to ask her those questions about the time of me coming out if she was still here. Those are things that did not bring up with her. But I feel like that closure was met when, for me, when Trevor came to visit and when we went to say goodbye, you know, we were flying back to Utah from California and she gave, you know, both of us a hug and she said, you know, we love you. You're always welcome here. And I think that was my, my, I got my closure.
Margi Dehlin [01:18:29] Yeah, you got that. How would you say, how would you say now you connect with your mom? If you do, if you, or that you kind of feel close to her being gone? Are there ways that you remember her?
Jake Bellenfant [01:18:44] Oh, absolutely. All the time when I'm, like, out, you know, usually when I'm by myself, whether it's at the gym or I'm like, grocery shopping or driving in the car, I have happy moments with her, and I just can feel her presence. And I know that she'd be proud of me. I think that she'd be proud of me, you know, telling my story and speaking up for marginalized communities and working to make a difference.
Margi Dehlin [01:19:07] Yeah.
Jake Bellenfant [01:19:08] And to save lives. That's ultimately, you know, why I chose this field is to really help people with their mental health and save lives.
Margi Dehlin [01:19:14] So, yeah, after, after she actually passed, what was the grief like for you once you, you know, I feel like oftentimes in moments where that's my best
Jake Bellenfant [01:19:28] friend, by the way, that just commented. Sorry, Seth. Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:19:30] Should we highlight. Seth?
John Dehlin [01:19:32] Yeah.
Jake Bellenfant [01:19:32] I love you, Seth.
John Dehlin [01:19:33] Yeah.
Jake Bellenfant [01:19:34] I see you on the side. Yeah, yeah. He was great. He was one of the young men that grew up with me, and he's stayed in touch with me.
John Dehlin [01:19:43] Seth wrote, love, Jake's mom. She is such a wonderful person, always so kind and charitable. So thanks for joining us, Seth.
Jake Bellenfant [01:19:49] Yeah,
Margi Dehlin [01:19:52] yeah. I feel like. Did you feel like oftentimes around a death. Right. There's this mobilizing where you come together. Ideally this is an ideal circumstances. Right. And you show up and then the person passes. And then oftentimes grief can kind of hit usually after the funeral and all the. To doing, all the doing subsides. And did you have sort of moments of. Of deep grief? And if so, how did you process the loss of her here in sort of this.
Grief, Loss, and Rebuilding Identity
Jake Bellenfant [01:20:27] I think I had delayed grief, actually. I think during the time I was really at peace and then kind of getting to that time again. When I was a nurse in Manhattan, I had a lot of time to think. I wasn't. Trevor wasn't even with me at that time. And that was. I kind of went through, I feel like delayed grief of missing her at that point in time because it was so quiet when I was by myself in the hotel room and, and missing her.
Margi Dehlin [01:20:50] So that's totally makes sense to me. Yeah. Having the space and the time and you're in a place of just being. Because we can do our way, I think, out of. For a time. For a time. And it can help us kind of avoid.
Jake Bellenfant [01:21:06] Exactly. Yeah. And yeah, you know, I'll go on it. You know, a little bit of our story. We are working on my family dynamics with my dad and my stepmom. You know, he had got married really quickly after the funeral with. He had started dating a week after the funeral and had been Married within about 6 months Time to one of her best friends growing up. And so it's been really hard on our family to kind of navigate. You know, I, I always say, you know, adults are going to do what they're going to do. They're going to make their decisions. And that's kind of how I felt about my dad getting married so quickly. And I've supported them in the same respect that I ex, you know, want them to respect my marriage and my life and have. Have that given back to me. But we've, you know, it's been difficult for our family to come together again to how it was before my mom passing.
Margi Dehlin [01:21:58] Right. Right. Rebuilding there too, it sounds like.
Jake Bellenfant [01:22:01] Right. And we still are. Yeah. My sister is still not on speaking terms with my dad right now. And we're, we're working on it.
Gerardo Sumano [01:22:13] Yeah.
Jake Bellenfant [01:22:13] This is still in the present, so. Yeah, I hope that our family can come together again.
Margi Dehlin [01:22:17] Yeah, I hope so too. I hope so too. So if we're. What if we go into rebuilding now a little bit and we can. If you want to touch more on family, we can. I'm curious, just as you are now, so kind of going back to sort of UVU through now. Right. It seems like you were starting to say you gained a lot of tools during that time, coping skills that you started working out. Would you mind just sharing some of the rebuilding blocks that really helped you during that time, slowly rebuild yourself and a life that actually you felt safe in and that you wanted to live.
Jake Bellenfant [01:22:58] Correct. I think taking, you know, what you learned from therapy and applying it to your life of making goals in your interpersonal relationships was huge for me.
John Dehlin [01:23:05] Who.
Jake Bellenfant [01:23:05] What kind of people did I want to surround myself with? What kind of person did I want to become? All these are huge in rebuilding and being able to also take, you know, if you need. I kind of say this. If you need to use medication. That's also something that I advocate for. There's a time and a place where I needed to use medication, needed a medical provider at that time. You know, they work. Therapy and meds work in different ways from like a top down and bottom up approach. And sometimes you need both. And that was huge in me just being able to recognize where I'm at mentally and if I need to seek help again in part of rebuilding. So. Hoping that answers your question.
Margi Dehlin [01:23:41] Yeah. And do you mind also talking about some of the. So I'm hearing kind of medication as well as good sound therapy. Right. And then talk, if you don't mind talking about habits, some habits that emerged there in coping. Cause it sounds like your fitness was kind of part of that.
Jake Bellenfant [01:24:01] Fitness was huge. And also spending time to meditate and be mindful every day, taking time to yourself. I think that's huge.
John Dehlin [01:24:08] Did you use an app or.
Jake Bellenfant [01:24:09] I did not use an app, no. I just. I just.
Margi Dehlin [01:24:11] You sit in quiet.
Jake Bellenfant [01:24:12] I sit in quiet, yeah. That's for me. Or I listen to music that's like more soft. That's what. What I prefer.
John Dehlin [01:24:18] Did you read on meditation so you could kind of learn about how to develop a practice like Eckhart Tolle or Sam Harris or any of that kind of stuff?
Jake Bellenfant [01:24:27] I didn't read in any. No, in any of that, but I. I just used what my therapist had t me. So a lot of breathing techniques for me as well.
Margi Dehlin [01:24:35] Oh, breathing, yeah. Breathing can be huge. Okay. So I'm hearing kind of meditation. Daily meditation emerged for habits and then some breathing and then being active. Is that right? So is that where it did. Did lifting weights and stuff?
Jake Bellenfant [01:24:53] I think that do. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I think that you know, working out with cardio and even, you know, a certain amount of weightlifting could help you for sure.
Margi Dehlin [01:25:03] Right.
Jake Bellenfant [01:25:03] In your mental and physical health.
Gerardo Sumano [01:25:05] So.
Margi Dehlin [01:25:05] Right.
Jake Bellenfant [01:25:06] Weight bearing activities.
Gerardo Sumano [01:25:07] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:25:08] How did you deal with and heal from the internalized. Well, we call it internalized homo negativity or internalized homophobia. So you go 20, 25 years, kind of learning to hate yourself, learning to deny yourself, learning that you, yourself, who you are inside is bad. And that doesn't just like wash off in 12 days and getting a therapist?
Jake Bellenfant [01:25:32] No.
John Dehlin [01:25:33] So how do you like it? So, you know, it's okay who I am, it's okay to date other men.
Margi Dehlin [01:25:38] It's like rewriting love.
John Dehlin [01:25:39] It's okay to even be. That's sexually accurate.
Jake Bellenfant [01:25:42] That takes a while. That takes, that takes several years, you know, to become comfortable in yourself, to be able to say, you know, I'm gonna surround myself with people that I feel safe with and I, I can be okay and feel comfortable in my own shoes, that I could be quirky and awkward, a little bit effeminate and be okay with that. And if people, you know, if people don't like you or if they say negative things, just brush it off and just don't care.
John Dehlin [01:26:07] So because, because the Mormon brain, you make all these associations. It's like if you have attractions to man, it's bad. If you, if you were to touch a man, it's bad. If you have certain thoughts, it's bad. And, and so as I imagine as you're starting to maybe accept who you are or talk differently or maybe even date, you would have these feelings or thoughts come into your brain that you would have been taught to associate with the Holy Ghost or the adversary. And then in all this conditioning, how do you move through and still make the behavioral changes when your brain or even your emotions are telling you, don't do that, that's evil, that's bad. You were taught not to do that. How do you silence the, those negative feelings and the negative voices in your head as you're changing? Does that make sense?
Jake Bellenfant [01:27:00] It does. Yeah. I think that's, I think that's difficult for a lot of young men to do. And especially for me, I think it's, you know, when those thoughts come in, it's telling your, you know, telling yourself, that's not true. You are a good person, you're a kind person. You care about other people and you can live happy and you could date others, you could respect others and be a good person. Being gay moving forward, I love that.
Gerardo Sumano [01:27:25] Yeah. So I, I I know this is not about me, it's not my story. But at least for me, what helped me honestly was going through a faith crisis. And like when I, once I decided that it was not true for myself, like, it was so much easier to just not care about what I had been taught. I mean, those things still show up, you know, and internally and maybe on your subconscious. And that's something that you have to still fight for a while. But I could see myself struggling a lot more when I was still believing in the church and trying to make the church work and believing the doctrine, but at the same time trying to be authentic. That's when I think I struggled the most with internalized homophobia. Once I stopped believing, it was a lot, lot easier.
Margi Dehlin [01:28:33] Yeah, that makes sense. I love the way you describe it too, because I do feel like on some level it's almost like you have programming that you're rewriting over. Like the programming was never you and it was never true, but it still pumps through your. Because it was planted during like your, you know, developmental years. So it's sort of like you're. It sounds like you have practices where you're aware and you're rewriting and rewiring your brain exactly around like a default setting or something that comes up.
Jake Bellenfant [01:29:07] I think John says, when he's, when he comments, says he has a more his Mormon brain on. And that's, you know, that you're. You spend so much time in this culture that you can never really shut that off. That's always going to be a piece of you and a part of you. But to reprogram and to accept yourself is really difficult. And that's what a lot of young adults have to. That have a faith crises and existential crises have to overcome.
Margi Dehlin [01:29:35] That's right. Yeah, that makes sense. So if we were going to continue with rebuilding, were there some hard parts about rebuilding? So during this time, as you're like, you know, rebuilding relationships, rebuilding your identity, rebuilding even your sense of self and what you're worthy of, that you're worthy of, good love, that you're worthy of, like happiness and joy, were there things that were difficult about that process? Barriers or things that you found were particularly sticky to work through? And if so, what were they
Jake Bellenfant [01:30:11] in? Like, rebuilding my person to who I am today?
Margi Dehlin [01:30:13] Yeah,
Jake Bellenfant [01:30:17] I think that. I honestly don't think that after my crises and moving here, going through that, I had such a hard time with. With that, to be honest with you. Yeah, I felt like that kind of came naturally for me. I kind of advocated for myself.
Margi Dehlin [01:30:32] Yes.
Jake Bellenfant [01:30:33] I, I, maybe that's just me and I'm different that way, but I felt like I honestly didn't have too much difficult of a time rebuilding and finding friends and dating and trying to maintain a healthy relationship with my parents and friends previously and becoming a sense of who I want to become. I don't think that I had too much difficulty with that, to be honest with you.
John Dehlin [01:30:58] What about doing it in Utah?
Jake Bellenfant [01:31:01] Utah's different. It's even being raised in California. You know, Utah's, Utah's great. You could find, you can always find your people in Utah. There are all sorts of people here. Tons of people are moving into Utah with differing beliefs and, and that's great. It's getting to be more, a little bit more of a melting pot of beliefs and cultural backgrounds than it maybe has been in the past.
Margi Dehlin [01:31:26] Yeah. So, yeah. Salt Lake City, right? Salt Lake City is a little bit of a.
Jake Bellenfant [01:31:31] Right. Yeah. And I transferred, I had transferred over to University of Utah as well. So I felt like I was able to be surrounded by similar to California people of all sorts of belief systems.
Margi Dehlin [01:31:42] Nice. Nice. So kind of what I'm hearing is like a new community there.
Jake Bellenfant [01:31:47] Right, right.
Margi Dehlin [01:31:48] For you with a bit. Okay. How about on the flip side? And I was wondering if honestly it. The difficult side was, I wonder because you'd suffered so long and if, you know, in such.
Jake Bellenfant [01:32:03] It's kind of interesting in my case where I feel like I was struggling so much in orthodoxy and then once I took time to myself, time to be free from that and to actually seek out evidence based therapy, that I was able to kind of move pretty quickly. I felt like, I mean, these last. I feel like eight years have gone by quick.
Margi Dehlin [01:32:26] Yes.
Jake Bellenfant [01:32:27] But I feel like I've been able to, to grow a lot faster from leaving orthodoxy.
Margi Dehlin [01:32:34] Exactly.
Jake Bellenfant [01:32:35] Because it was so confined.
Margi Dehlin [01:32:37] Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. Okay. What about on the other hand, like, joys or like just in that rebuilding moments that stand out to you as being pivotal to you or meaningful to you in that rebuilding process of your life. Or it could be meeting your husband or whatever. Just whatever sticks out as sort of like a joy in that process, coming
Jake Bellenfant [01:33:00] to terms with who I am and also at that same time finding out what I wanted to do professionally. Yeah, it was huge for me and I absolutely love what I do. I love the medical field and I love giving back to people in the mental health community. And then meeting my husband, it was, he is my everything. And when I met him, it was kind of weird. We pretty quickly we knew that we were the ones for each other.
Margi Dehlin [01:33:30] So. Yeah.
Jake Bellenfant [01:33:33] So we've had a lot of joy, a lot of good times.
Margi Dehlin [01:33:35] Yeah. Do you find. Okay. A couple follow ups. Can I follow up on a little bit? Okay. So with, with regard to. It feels like you found meaning and purpose in your job. Would you say that is. Am I infusing that? But it feels like you have. You feel really, really powerfully about it.
Jake Bellenfant [01:33:58] I do, yeah. I do feel like that is. I found meaning and purpose in my job, in giving back and. But I'm a professional, you know, I come in with being neutral, no biases. I keep that those boundaries, these kind of things that we're talking about, do not discuss at all. We do not go in any of that with patients. And it is all about the patient and helping them in their. In their moments of crises.
Margi Dehlin [01:34:23] Yeah. Yeah. And I would imagine your experience, having experienced the other side of that. Right. Would so make you, I don't know, be. Have extra care.
Jake Bellenfant [01:34:35] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:34:35] Around those ethical kind of things and wanting to care for the patient in that way.
Jake Bellenfant [01:34:39] Right. And I know what good care looks like. I've received it and I hope I can give that back.
Margi Dehlin [01:34:47] Yeah.
Jake Bellenfant [01:34:47] In the future. So.
Career Path and Becoming a Nurse
Margi Dehlin [01:34:48] And just touching on that rebuilding part, did you always feel drawn to the medical field or was that something that you had your own journey with and seeking and searching out what you wanted to do?
Jake Bellenfant [01:34:59] I was always a bit of a nerdy kid. I was always into biology, so I was actually like biology, zoology before deciding that I wanted to go into nursing. So I kind of thought for a while I wanted to do like vet school or med school. So I feel like while I loved science, I didn't life sciences particularly. I didn't know exactly what my life was going to look like with that, what I was going to decide to do. And so, you know, working as a mental health technician with these populations, I got exposed to nurses and who were kind of mentors to me and got me really interested in that field. I was able to learn about psychiatric, mental health, nurse practitioners that way and that's how I was drawn to that field. So.
Margi Dehlin [01:35:44] Got it. Mentors.
Jake Bellenfant [01:35:45] Yes.
Margi Dehlin [01:35:46] Are so huge, aren't they?
Jake Bellenfant [01:35:48] Because that's kind of a, you know, talking about nursing, that's not a field you really think about as a male growing up. That's, you know, there's their own stereotypes about that and that's nothing I really, really considered. But I've found my love in it and I'm where I'm where I need to be brilliant.
Margi Dehlin [01:36:07] And with your husband a little bit. Do you mind sharing a little bit about how you met your husband and at what time in your life you met him?
Jake Bellenfant [01:36:16] Yeah, this was about five years ago, so I was still in nursing prerequisite courses. I was already a senior in biology at that time and had swapped to want to do nursing. And so I was extremely busy at that time. And he had actually, surprisingly added me on Facebook. And I usually don't add people I don't know, but he. I saw mutual friends. I was like, okay, he's. He's a handsome guy. And he started chatting with me on Facebook and he actually had asked me out to a date. And at that point in my life, like, I think that I was so focused on my career that I was not really focused on having a relationship. I just wanted to continue my education and get that done. So it was kind of weird how the relationship was, like, kind of fell into my lap that way. It was not something I was seeking, but I'm so glad that it happened. And, you know, we met and we became each other's best friends, and he supported me through my whole nursing schooling and grad school. So he's been amazing. And he, you know, us saying my sister and him kind of, I feel like, inspired me to come on this podcast because I love my sister. She had just put herself out to be Miss Huntington beach, and she was in the finals for Miss California this past fall. And my husband is going to be competing in bodybuilding next month for his first show. So, you know, seeing both my husband and my sister put themselves out there to be vulnerable in a different way, you know, inspired me to kind of come forward and in something that I'm passionate about.
Margi Dehlin [01:37:55] So, yeah, feeling inspired by. I can feel it. I feel inspired by that.
Jake Bellenfant [01:38:00] That's vulnerable to be here, you know.
Margi Dehlin [01:38:01] It sure is. Well, look at you, right?
Jake Bellenfant [01:38:04] I'm in the hot seat. It's been hard. You know, I don't know what comments are coming my way, but do you
Margi Dehlin [01:38:09] have any comments you want to share? Are there any comments coming in that you want to share? At the moment?
Gerardo Sumano [01:38:14] I haven't. I. I was paying attention to anyone stories. I was not reading them.
Margi Dehlin [01:38:18] That's good. Okay, so let's pick up around resources, then. So we've talked a little bit about rebuilding. Right. And if we were going to go for kind of some resources that have been important to you in your rebuilding process, particularly, let's say, around mental health and if there were any that came kind of forward during grief and loss or even in general?
Mental Health Tools and Resources That Helped
Jake Bellenfant [01:38:46] Just. Just in general?
Margi Dehlin [01:38:47] Yeah, Even in general that you think are healthy for you.
Jake Bellenfant [01:38:50] Even. Because even if you aren't seeing a therapist right now or you have to be on a waitlist, something like get a self. Hair self therapy manual. Like mind over mood is a good one that I like that. Cbt.
Margi Dehlin [01:39:01] Okay. Mind over mood.
Jake Bellenfant [01:39:04] Right. And I think utilizing. We have crisis lines here, if that's something that you need someone to talk to immediately. We have peer support specialists here in Utah. We have a pretty good setup for mental health here.
John Dehlin [01:39:19] What's. What's the crisis line that you're like by name?
Jake Bellenfant [01:39:21] University of Utah's crisis line is one that people could search up, and that's the one that I recommend in the area or here in Utah. But there's suicide hotline for people struggling with those. With those kind of things. And then being able. It's pretty easy to just search up, you know, YouTube videos and techniques of mindfulness and meditations.
Margi Dehlin [01:39:41] Right.
Jake Bellenfant [01:39:42] And that's what I would say go to first if you cannot meditation right away with someone. Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:39:49] In your experience, what. What is it that you feel like meditation has brought you peace? Yeah.
Jake Bellenfant [01:39:55] Yeah. It helps me, you know, to ground myself if I. I get stressed out really easily. So it's really helps me to kind of just calm down, keep my anxiety down.
Margi Dehlin [01:40:05] Yeah. And your practice looks like. Do you sit in the morning or what. What is your practice right now?
Jake Bellenfant [01:40:12] Well, my schedule's all over the place, so.
Margi Dehlin [01:40:15] Oh, that's right.
Jake Bellenfant [01:40:15] I'm actually more of an evening person, been more nocturnal, so I feel like I take my time, my alone time at night to kind of be in my thoughts and think and meditate. And that's. That's my time.
Margi Dehlin [01:40:25] Beautiful. Yeah, I love that because I love the idea of picking a time that actually works for you as opposed to like some prescribed or, you know, what you hear.
Jake Bellenfant [01:40:35] Right.
Margi Dehlin [01:40:35] Finding the right time for your life.
Jake Bellenfant [01:40:37] Yep. And having, you know, having to be a nurse and working graves for so long, it kind of gives me a bit of that shift work disorder. Some.
Margi Dehlin [01:40:45] Yeah.
Jake Bellenfant [01:40:46] Struggle in the daytimes, actually, more so with my thoughts. So, yeah, more for me, nighttime.
Margi Dehlin [01:40:52] Okay. So I hear kind of books, the mind over mood. I hear good therapy. I hear meditation.
Jake Bellenfant [01:41:02] Lots of podcasts.
Margi Dehlin [01:41:04] Lots of podcasts. What are a couple of your favorites that have been important for you?
Jake Bellenfant [01:41:08] Well, I think that, well, Mormon stories. You guys cover a lot of that of mental health on here. This is not the first episode on Mental health. And I, I just look up a lot of meditations online. So I don't have. I love Stephen Hassan's Influence continuing podcast, but these are all separate things. Talking about undue influence and, yeah, kind of deconstruction, like what was going on with me at those times. But yeah, I don't have a particular. Yeah, that's my favorite.
Margi Dehlin [01:41:38] But, but so to go back to the. Steve. It's Steve Hassan, right?
Jake Bellenfant [01:41:42] Yeah, he.
Margi Dehlin [01:41:43] Do you feel like he. What does he bring for you? What is the value that you feel like he has been able to. Is it kind of understanding yourself, understanding your brain?
Jake Bellenfant [01:41:52] Yep.
Margi Dehlin [01:41:53] Yeah.
Jake Bellenfant [01:41:54] Yeah. I think understanding a lot of what I was going through is prevalent in his work.
Margi Dehlin [01:41:59] Yeah, that's why he means a lot to me. So. Yeah, that makes sense. Okay. All right. Any other resources that you feel like we haven't mentioned yet with rebuilding, would you put your health and exercise in there?
Jake Bellenfant [01:42:13] I would, yeah. Definitely. Try to work out three times a week if you can. Any sort of movement is great.
Margi Dehlin [01:42:19] Yeah. Okay.
John Dehlin [01:42:21] As I'm listening to you, I'm thinking, wow, he's basically telling us things that we probably hear a lot, which is like, be who you are, surround yourself with good friends, exercise regularly, get a good therapist, eat right, you know, pursue your dreams. But I think there's a lot of people that have a hard time doing all those things. What, what are the secrets to. For you making this? You know, because it's a cliche. You go to a therapist, you're depressed, they say work out, get good sleep and eat right. But then you're depressed and you don't want to do any of those things. So what's, what's. Do you have any tips on how to work on that self improvement that will lead to improved mental health when you don't feel like it? You know what I mean? When you feel stuck. I don't even know if you experienced depression and if, if that was something you had to battle or if all that lifted once you just became your authentic self. And maybe that's been your secret.
Jake Bellenfant [01:43:20] You know, I think that there's. What I would say is you need to write it down, you know, make some goals of what you're going to do for the week. Take it week by week. And, you know, we talk about this, you know, action. So take action before and hopefully the benefits will come after. So that's. And it's difficult for a lot of people that are struggling with depression to do that. But even, you know, when it comes to health, even if it's just like one day this week, I'm going to get out and be active.
Margi Dehlin [01:43:52] Yeah.
Jake Bellenfant [01:43:53] Or I'm gonna, you know, cook at home, eat healthy. I'm going to listen to a meditation. Start small. Don't, don't, don't overwhelm yourself.
Margi Dehlin [01:44:02] Yeah, I love that. I love that too, that it breaks down to sort of practices and habits really, because I think there's this sense of like, I don't know, with aspirational thought that you should just arrive somewhere. But I think really we are a result oftentimes of the things we prioritize, prioritize and the habits that kind of come to the surface. But I love too that it's just small. Like sometimes health looks like a glass of water. Like really, sometimes it looks like just sort of getting up and moving and getting up out of a seat for a little bit or. Yeah, I love that. Great.
John Dehlin [01:44:40] Also, just want to note, going back to Stephen Hasson and it sounds like you may have appreciated the Luna Lindsay Corbden.
Jake Bellenfant [01:44:47] I did. She's in my notes.
John Dehlin [01:44:49] Yeah, yeah. Recovering Agency book. And you know, you don't think about. And by the way, we're always going to want to be sensitive on Mormon stories to. What do you say?
Margi Dehlin [01:44:59] I was saying they.
John Dehlin [01:45:01] Luna Lindsay Corbin, they. Thank you. Thank you, Margi. We're always going to be. Want to be sensitive on Mormon stories podcast about not referring to the Mormon Church as a cult and to being careful how we talk about high demand religions. And having said that, I think when people are thinking about their mental health, especially after faith transition, they don't think about awareness around high demand religions, undue influence, kind of awareness around that as being its own intervention. But like for me, watching documentaries about cults or high demand religions really helped me see it in other organizations, understand conditioning, understanding, undue influence, influence so that I could kind of deprogram and detach myself and rebuild. And that's actually a really important intervention. It's why when I do, when I've done kind of coaching with people in faith crisis, I'm like, watch Pleasantville. Watch the Truman show. Watch the Matrix, Watch the Village. There are all these tangled. There are all these, there are all these movies or documentaries. Watch Holy Hell or the Vow or Wild Wild Country. So whether it's cult documentaries or Going Clear or whether it's these movies that, that seem to be about being raised in an artificial reality, then having this awakening and then having to rebuild, those become their own interventions of sorts. And so I basically, I'm Just saying, you keep mentioning Stephen Hassan, you keep mentioning education and awareness around undue influence. And I'm going to say that's sounding like one of the major tools for your improvement of mental health. And I've never really thought of it that way before. You know, you think about eating right, exercising, meditation as, as important things for mental health, but like undo, like high demand religion slash undo influence awareness seems like it was a big one for you.
Jake Bellenfant [01:47:14] I think it was probably one of the most pivotal to understanding what I had just gone through growing up. Yeah, absolutely.
Gerardo Sumano [01:47:22] Yeah. And also because these techniques that are used in high demand religions or cults can be used in, in the workplace sometimes and relationships. It's not. There's a new documentary in Netflix called Bad Vegan where this lady has her partner is employing all of these techniques, you know, to have her like mind do mind control on her and stuff. So it can, it doesn't necessarily need to be an organization. It can later play out and by us having already gone through it, if we're not really informed, we can fall back into.
Margi Dehlin [01:48:11] So true.
Gerardo Sumano [01:48:11] Yeah. So being informed about all that stuff, I think it's really important to avoid it. Even us. And when you raise kids and stuff like that, you don't want to be controlling and you want to be careful how you're. That the techniques you're using to parent that are.
Margi Dehlin [01:48:32] Are mindful and yeah, I think identifying, being able to identify systems too. Healthy systems versus not. And I think whether we like it or not, we're all taking part in systems, whether it's the medical system, educational system, you know, political systems or. And so I think just because life does require us as being. As part of being alive, that it's super important that we become very aware of what a healthy system, how it operates, what it asks of you, how it, what it looks like and then how we want to behave and act or protect ourselves and advocate for ourselves. Right, right. And for our kids too.
Jake Bellenfant [01:49:20] But yeah, yeah, I think it's. And a lot of it looks at just relationships, not even systems, focusing on what abusive relationships look like and family systems, family dynamics, family systems. And I think it's great to learn about these things because yes, you could be the kind of medical professional, you could be the type of parent, you could be the type of leader that you want to be in your respective system and advocate for changes when you see that things might be undue influence or unhealthy.
Margi Dehlin [01:49:47] I love that. I love that. I love that. Especially with personal relationships too.
John Dehlin [01:49:53] The other thing I'll add, is it, it seems like high demand religions, they're not optimized for helping you discover who you are. They're kind of optimized for shaping you into the type of human that would be of good service to the organization.
Margi Dehlin [01:50:08] Exactly.
John Dehlin [01:50:09] And so once you've untangled from a high demand religion, it's all about who am I, how do I listen to my own voice again? How do I figure out what drives me and what excites me and then how do I, how do I become self centered in a good way? Because then if I'm healthy and aware and in tune with who I am and learn to listen to my own voice, not the voice, my religion program to me to listen to, then I can not only be my best self, but then I can show up as a healthy self for other people.
Jake Bellenfant [01:50:41] Yeah, I love that.
John Dehlin [01:50:42] I would agree.
Jake Bellenfant [01:50:43] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:50:44] Is that true for you?
Jake Bellenfant [01:50:45] I think it would be true for me, yeah.
Life Today and Thriving After Mormonism
Margi Dehlin [01:50:49] So what is your life like now? If we were going to get a kind of a snapshot of. So this is like the thriving part is just today versus kind of where you've been. So thinking about mental health and, and because you touched on community a bit, we can come back round too to, because you brought it up, the importance of, you know, chosen family or also family where you feel like it feels healthier. So what does it look like now? What is your, you know, how does it differ from before your life now and does it feel healthier?
Jake Bellenfant [01:51:25] Life is complete 180 from where it was before. It's very happy, very healthy. We keep ourselves selves, busy with positive things, things that we feel like are progressing ourselves towards who we want to be. And look, we're talking a lot about my husband and I about raising kids and what kind of parents do we want to be. And right now we're still finding ourselves a bit. And right now I'm so busy in school and caught up in stuff that I'm passionate about to get to a place where I can, you know, give back doing what I want to do. So I think life has been pretty great I think overall and I have people around me that love and support me. We're pretty close with Trevor's family and they've been amazing to us. And then also building, you know, those relationships that I had growing up with friends that I'd grown up with as well, keeping in contact with them and really trying to build more authentic relationships with them as has been a challenge. But I think that it's been pretty positive Overall, since I've been able to come out and get married and be who I am, because I'm able to set boundaries and I'm able to be myself and feel comfortable in my own shoes.
Margi Dehlin [01:52:50] Yeah, yeah. So. And would you say kind of in the present moment that your mental health is something that you have to tend to? It's something that is like a continual or.
Jake Bellenfant [01:53:02] Absolutely.
Margi Dehlin [01:53:03] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:53:03] Yeah.
Jake Bellenfant [01:53:04] That's something that I. I know that I am going to struggle with the rest of my life and coming to terms with that as well, knowing that I do have, you know, some depression, anxiety that will always, you know, be there, but I have the skills to be able to be happy. And just because you might struggle with those things doesn't mean that you can't be happy.
Margi Dehlin [01:53:26] Yeah, yeah. Beautiful. So beautiful. Are there any other. Oh, yeah.
John Dehlin [01:53:33] So I remember when the fight for marriage equality was going on. You know, there's like, well, we'll LGBT people even really want to get married or like, does it really matter? Is there really a difference between legal marriage versus civil unions versus just choosing to live together? And I remember in my research that there actually were meaningful differences in quality of life between just, you know, sexually active and dating versus, like in a non legal committed relationship. But the highest outcomes in our research were legal marriage. And I'm just wondering now that, you know, same sex marriage was legalized and now that you're in a legal marriage, whether the ability to be legally married, if you associate that for you with. With positive outcomes, and if so, why?
Jake Bellenfant [01:54:28] I. I would think so. I. And you know, I've been lucky enough that that was passed for the time that I found my husband. And, you know, it's a sense of being equal to those around us and that, you know, we have families too, we have marriages, and they can still have happy and similar outcomes to heterosexual marriages. So. And I think it's. It's huge in us feeling fulfilled and happy in that.
Gerardo Sumano [01:54:57] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:54:57] Yeah. Though I. Don't you think there is an irony in always feeling like there's. The comparison is with heterosexual marriages, where so many heterosexual marriages are unhappy, that they're the standard. Where you're like, wait, why are we comparing to you? Because I'm pretty sure you're having a very hard time of it. But anyway, the irony. Right. Yeah. Are there any final things that you would want to say that maybe I didn't ask you or about your journey or about things that you think they could also be tips for people that are struggling in these particular domains, particularly like like, right now, is there anything or are you feeling quite.
Reflections and Closing Thoughts
Jake Bellenfant [01:55:43] I feel. I feel like coming here to focus on more of my thrive story and just sharing my personal story. Becoming vulnerable. I just wanted to, you know, kind of had a few populations I wanted to focus on, hopefully from getting this message. I hope that individuals who are struggling in mental health can have some hope and can be given resources and know that you can live healthy and thrive outside of religious orthodoxy. That was a. That's a huge thing for me coming on, and I hope that can help someone. So as well as parents and leaders, I want them to learn about undue influence and these thought reform tactics and unhealthy systems so that they can create safer spaces for all of our youth, but especially our LGBTQ youth who have higher rates of mental illness. For sure. Yeah, she's with that.
Margi Dehlin [01:56:37] Beautiful. Yeah, beautiful. Well, in closing, can I just say something that I think is. Has been so lovely to witness in you?
Jake Bellenfant [01:56:46] Absolutely.
Margi Dehlin [01:56:47] It's just like following your story and. And from the beginning and feeling like safety was such a. Just such an issue early on. And also this feeling that you kind of shared of just feeling like broken or innately wrong that I have just loved witnessing how you have come to value, to restore those things. It's like now you have a life where you have safety. You've created one for yourself where you can feel safe, and you're also trying to make the world safer for other people. It's not just for you, but you're also trying to advocate and create spaces for other people. I love that full circle there. And I love that you have good love that you have that you feel seen in that part of you that you were programmed or so wrongly like, you know, it's just. I can't think of. It's just such a horrible thing to do to human beings that you have created on the other side, all this love in your life as a. It's just a. It is a beautiful thing to. To witness. So I really appreciate you being willing to come and kind of lay yourself bare here, not knowing me particularly well. It's been incredible to witness.
Jake Bellenfant [01:58:14] I really appreciate that. And that's. That touched my heart. So get emotional hearing that. Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:58:19] Oh, thank you.
Jake Bellenfant [01:58:21] You've been great welcoming me here, and I really appreciate you meeting with me today.
Margi Dehlin [01:58:25] Ah, beautiful. Any other comments before we sign off?
John Dehlin [01:58:28] Werta.
Gerardo Sumano [01:58:29] No. This been. This. It's been great. Yeah. Just highlighting queer stories of those of us who have been able to thrive, you know, in different ways. And, yeah, it's just great. Thanks, Jake, for coming.
John Dehlin [01:58:47] And if there are any LGBT youth or young adults or older adults or just people, humans, because it's kind of a universal story. I learned from everyone and we all have things to learn from everyone. If you were to kind of give any final tips to somebody going through their transition, gay or straight, what would be your final tips of wisdom for someone who feels like they're stuck or they maybe they're not feeling a lot of hope and they're wondering if it gets better. Any final words of encouragement you want to, you want to offer?
Jake Bellenfant [01:59:23] I would say, like kind of with the advice I had given earlier. Take it small, but take action. You know, ultimately we're all in charge of our own mental well being and we need to advocate for ourselves. I think that's the most important advice that I can give anyone.
Margi Dehlin [01:59:40] Love it. Yep. So thank you, Jake. Thanks, Roberto and John, and thank you for being here for another episode of Thrive Stories. And until next time, keep thriving.
John Dehlin [01:59:51] And Margi, if people want to sign up for a Thrive story, anything you want to offer or add about that?
Margi Dehlin [01:59:59] I don't think so. Just I feel like we've made it pretty straightforward. You can click on the link that gets to me and then from there we are prioritizing in person interviews for now. We may add streaming interviews later, but so just kind of knowing that. And then from there I am picking topics. We only have two a month and so I usually get back with some type of submission form or interview form. If all is in line, you can
John Dehlin [02:00:33] go to the description in the blog or on YouTube or on Facebook and click on the link in the show notes that will take you to the application form.
Margi Dehlin [02:00:43] That's right. We would love to have you on. So happy thriving, everyone.
Join Margi, John, and Gerardo for our next episode of Thrive Stories this coming Tuesday at noon (MST). Come listen and participate in the conversation as we talk to Jake Bellenfant. Find out how Jake has processed the damaging experiences of his youth and young adulthood growing up gay in the church and how he has reclaimed his own mental health. In addition, listen to how Jake has navigated grief and loss in witnessing both the death of his mother and the loss of his community. Jake is now a mental health advocate, studying at the #1 ranked Psychiatric Mental Health Nurse Practitioner program at Vanderbilt University. He aspires to improve the mental health of populations across the lifespan and in marginalized groups that are struggling with mental illness– particularly those who have suffered the mental health effects of undue influence, high demand belief systems, abusive family dynamics, and religious trauma.
Thrive Stories is a new podcast series where Margi (alongside John and Carah) will be interviewing a member of the community twice per month. The interviews will be shorter (1-2 hours), story-based, but will be focused on a particular aspect of healing and growth AFTER a Mormon faith crisis (thus the THRIVE name). They will happen on Tuesdays at noon (MST). Some examples of areas of thriving include: Family Relationships, Healthy Boundaries, Finding Community, Finding Meaning/Purpose, Dealing with Grief/Death, Religion after Mormonism, Health Sexuality, Parenting, Improving Physical Health, Identity, Health Marriage/Relationships, Secular Spirituality, Word of Wisdom 2.0, and Women Finding Their Own Voice after Mormonism.
If you would like to nominate someone you know who would be a great candidate for a THRIVE interview, please nominate them (or yourself) HERE.
Show Notes:
- THRIVE story application form link
- Prop 8
- Podcast (icarly) Jennette McCurdy
- Empty Inside Podcast
- Kolby Sorensen MS Episode
- Combating Cult Mind Control
- Steven Hassan website
- Mind Over Mood
- Utah Crisis Line
- Mindfulness Meditation
- Steven Hassan – Influence Continuum Podcast
- Recovering Agency
- Documentaries on cult control and mental control:
- Bad Vegan – Netflix
- Wild Wild Country – Netflix
- The Matrix – HBO Max, Peacock TV & Redbox
- Pleasantville – Prime Video, Vudu Movie & TV Store, Redbox., Apple TV
- Tangled – Disney +
- Holy Hell – Amazon Prime
- The Invention of Lying – Prime Video, Vudu Movie & TV Store, VUDU, Apple TV or Redbox
- Smallfoot – Prime Video, VUDU, Vudu Movie & TV Store or Redbox
- The Vow – Hulu
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One Response
Something told me there may not be any comments on this episode. Interesting. Just wanna say I’m glad Jake is still here to tell his story. Very relatable story. Amazing guy.