Welcome and Introduction to Holly Laurent

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 1600

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is May 5, 2022, and I am over the moon. Super excited for today's episode. We have in studio the wonderful, the brilliant, the insightful Jen. Hey, Jen, Good to have you.

Jenn Kamp [00:00:20] I was waiting for you to go to Holly first.

Holly Laurent [00:00:22] Hi, everybody.

John Dehlin [00:00:23] Yeah, thanks for joining us.

Jenn Kamp [00:00:25] You're welcome.

John Dehlin [00:00:26] And we're doing something kind of new and exciting today on the podcast. So new. Normally we interview, you know, progressive and post Mormons that happen to be in the Salt Lake City area. Occasionally we do remote interviews over the Internet with people that can't join us in Salt Lake. And occasionally we interview people who were raised in other faith traditions like Scientology or Jehovah's Witnesses or, you know, Orthodox Judaism. And those have been some of my favorite episodes, like Christmas, Chris Shelton, Lloyd Evans, you know, so many others that I'm going to forget to mention. But one area of high demand religion that we've never really explored on Mormon Stories is evangelical Christianity. And that's been something that's been a long time coming. And recently, my dear friend Steve Kovalenko reached out to me and told me about this amazing podcast called Mega that is kind of a religious satire comedy podcast that. That is led by a woman named Laurent, Sorry, Holly Laurent. And so Stephen was kind enough to hook me up with Holly and her husband, and we got to know them a little bit, and we decided to do something that we don't do. We flew Holly to Salt Lake City. Jen and I picked her up at the airport, and we are going to be covering kind of like, you know, a faith journey of someone who was kind of born and raised into evangelical Christianity and then has left it and is a comedian now. A brilliant, funny, insightful comedian who also runs a podcast. And she came up with the title from Christianity to Comedy. Is that right?

Holly Laurent [00:02:06] Or Replacing Christ with Comedy.

John Dehlin [00:02:08] That's it.

Jenn Kamp [00:02:09] Yeah. Replacing.

John Dehlin [00:02:09] Replacing Christ with comedy.

Holly Laurent [00:02:11] If you like it, John.

John Dehlin [00:02:13] Yeah, that's great. Yeah, yeah. So. So, Holly Laurent, welcome to Mormon Stories podcast.

Holly Laurent [00:02:18] Thank you so much, John and Jen, I'm so happy to be here.

John Dehlin [00:02:21] Yeah, we're thrilled.

Holly Laurent [00:02:23] Oh, man.

John Dehlin [00:02:24] And. And as I look at your vita, your description, like, you've got. You've done a lot of cool stuff. So you've written for the Onion, which is awesome. You trained at Second City or, you know, and that's where all my favorite comedians of the seventies, John Belushi, Dan Aykroyd, Jane Curtin, Gilda Radner, like all The Saturday Night Live. A lot of the Saturday Night Live folks came out of Second City. You freaking trained there. Margi and I went there once and, and just had the Second City experience. And you've even. You studied at Columbia College, which is super impressive. Right? Columbia. You've been on CBS and NBC and Comedy Central, Funny or Die, which I love. And you've even been on the Late Late show with James Corden. So you've been freaking. You're like a superstar.

Holly Laurent [00:03:09] Oh, what I've always wanted to hear. I've done it.

John Dehlin [00:03:15] No, but we're so glad to have you. And a shout out to Steve for kind of making this happen. But let's start from the beginning. Is that all right?

Holly Laurent [00:03:21] Fantastic.

Holly's Family and Christian Upbringing

John Dehlin [00:03:22] Okay. So were your parents Christians before you were born?

Jenn Kamp [00:03:27] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:03:28] Do you know?

Holly Laurent [00:03:28] Yeah, because my parents got together by starting one of the first ever Christian rock bands in the 1970s called the Good News Circle.

John Dehlin [00:03:36] So were they converts to Christianity or had they been raised Christian?

Holly Laurent [00:03:39] My mom is a preacher's kid and so it was all she ever knew. And my dad was. Was raised by a mean alcoholic and pill popper who then replaced the alcoholism with Fundamental Baptist. Fundamental baptism. O.

John Dehlin [00:03:57] What states were they in, your parents?

Holly Laurent [00:03:59] My mom grew up in Michigan and my dad grew up in Illinois. My dad came from Springfield and my mom came from Cadillac, Michigan. But they met the. The way my dad tells it is my mom was on a, like, outreach music group from Judson College where she went to school and she was singing in some church for some like, special music program. And my dad was there with a friend. A friend brought him and my dad said he was like, who is that on the piano? I like what I see. And the way he tells it is that he dropped out of Milliken University and enrolled in Judson College to go try to date my mom.

John Dehlin [00:04:41] Yeah. Ok, so were they. Did they meet in a religious context then? Kind of.

Holly Laurent [00:04:47] They met at a Christian college and then they started a band because they're both really musical and,

John Dehlin [00:04:57] and do you know around what, what decade or year was it like during the 70s? Was during Woodstock? Was it in the 80s? Like when in the 60s do you know? Like, I'm trying to. Like, is this Beatles time? Is this Janis Joplin?

Holly Laurent [00:05:10] Like, yeah, I'd say it was like late 60s.

John Dehlin [00:05:13] Late 60s?

Holly Laurent [00:05:13] Ye. No, I know exactly when. If they were born in 47 and they got married when they were 20, they got married in 67.

John Dehlin [00:05:21] Yeah.

Holly Laurent [00:05:21] Okay, so the mid-60s is when they met.

John Dehlin [00:05:23] It's like right around the time I'm born, 69 Beatles are raging. Woodstock's about to happen.

Holly Laurent [00:05:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:28] Hippie town, Haight, Ashbury, marijuana, long hair. Your parents are Christians, raised in Christian homes, and they meet and they want to start a Christian rock band. I love it. I love how this is starting.

Holly Laurent [00:05:41] Yeah. And they. And like, my dad was Beatles crazy and very much a Simon of Garfunkel. All that. And like those. And even, like, sometimes their music, I have their vinyl albums. Like, I almost hear sometimes the Dead in there. A little bit of ccr, a little bit of, like, Mamas and the Papas, a little bit of. You can hear all those influences of the time. But they were singing about this long haired, counterculture Jesus dude who loves you like you have never been loved before. You're gonna love this love. It's gonna feel so good.

John Dehlin [00:06:14] Would they have ever told you whether they were, like, obeying all the rules or whether their former Christianity was kind of like, wouldn't meet the purity standards of today kind of thing? Do you even know?

Holly Laurent [00:06:24] They told me they were virgins on their wedding night. They didn't even know how to do it. Like, so no hip.

John Dehlin [00:06:31] No drugs? No. They wouldn't smoke in weed or.

Holly Laurent [00:06:33] Neither of them have ever had a drink or smoke of anything in their life. They're very. And for my dad. And you might have had some of this from listening to some of your experience. John. My dad kind of came by the no booze thing. Honestly, I. He. He, like, grew up. His grandpa ran a bar and he used to have to clean as a kid. He would, like, clean up this tap. I think it was like the Laurent Tavern or something in Springfield. And there'd be, like, vomit and stuff. And he was a kid and he was like, this is gross. And also, like, his dad would get drunk and, like, make his sons, like, punch each other in the face and stuff.

John Dehlin [00:07:10] And, like, was this before or after his dad had converted to Christianity?

Holly Laurent [00:07:15] His dad. It was really weird, I think, for my. For my dad, because his parents were so hard. You know, his mom, she'd go to a bunch of different doctors and get a bunch of different pills and just sort of be like, like slurring her words, like, on the couch. And so he'd be embarrassed to, like, have friends over. And his dad was pretty mean.

John Dehlin [00:07:36] And even after Christianity, well, I think

Holly Laurent [00:07:40] they kind of came to it sort of at the same time, but they came to different versions.

John Dehlin [00:07:45] Okay.

Holly Laurent [00:07:45] I actually, now that you see this, I don't know what my grand.

John Dehlin [00:07:49] I just wonder if Your, his parents cleaned up at some point or if there was always a mess, you know,

Holly Laurent [00:07:53] that his parents cleaned up. So cleaned up that they went in a direction that my dad always thought. My, the way my dad always described it to me was. He was like, how they're about the law, you know, and Jesus tells us it's not about the law, it's about love, you know. And my parents were really swept up in the Jesus movement of the. Ah, was the Jesus movement the early 70s? It might have been, but they, they were really into that counterculture, you know, like them doing Christian rock was very hard on. Like my mom's parents were like, excuse me, because, you know, like, it's organ, it's piano and no clapping, you know, with hymns and stuff.

John Dehlin [00:08:32] So both your parents grew up in kind of eventually strict Christian home?

Holly Laurent [00:08:37] Yeah, well, I think once my dad was out of the house, I think, man, that's interesting. I should ask him. I have a really bad memory and I think some of that is trauma, some of that might be cannabis. But I. Want to ask my dad that because my dad, I think once he was out of the home, somehow his father, my paternal grandfather, converted to this really wild, like a fundamentalist, fundamentalist Baptist in Crown Point, Indiana, called Bethel or Baptist City. It's a church called Baptist City. And it was very like, women had to wear dresses, you know, all that stuff of like, you know, very prohibition prohibitive dresses. And their big thing was soul winning, absolute purity culture. There's a college that I don't think is accredited or anything called Hiles Anderson University in Hammond, Indiana. Hammond, anyway, where my grandpa became a professor and a preacher. He had no, like, no seminary, no education. He was a, he was a mean drunk who worked for the phone company. He would climb those poles for the. To like do repair on the telephone poles. And then when he converted to this Fundamental Baptist culture, he became a really mean soul winner. But he made a, a promise to God on the day of his conversion that he would go. They call it. Have you heard of soul winning?

John Dehlin [00:10:06] No, I was gonna ask you. What is soul winning?

Jenn Kamp [00:10:08] Wow.

Holly Laurent [00:10:08] Isn't that a wild term? Yeah, soul winning. Soul winning is a big thing, at least in that like, fundamentalist Baptist culture where it's basically knocking on doors and getting people to repeat the sinner's prayer after you. And then you write their name down in your notebook and you turn in their name at church for credit for. You have to be winning so many. Winning so many souls, you know, for.

John Dehlin [00:10:31] And because like, if they Say those words somehow it saves them in heaven. And so you're saving them from damnation.

Holly Laurent [00:10:37] Yeah, you get that name in the book of life. So that when you walk up to the pearly gates, Peter gonna look up and be like, got you right here. Because Carl Laurent had you say the magic words in Hammond, Indiana, when he came to your door. And, man, I used to go with him. He was always. He was one of those guys, my grandpa, that, like, if he smelled weakness, he would know right where to get you, you know? And I think something in me as a really highly sensitive kid who was also really, like, I had a real, like, strong will streak in me. So when I would recognize that in someone, I would do this power up thing. And so I think there was something about me that he kind of respected that. And he wouldn't, like, go in on me the way he would my siblings. I would watch him, like, intentionally hurt their feelings, insult and scare them and stuff. And he wouldn't do that to me. I mean, we would get in fights. I would challenge him when we talk and stuff. But, like, I remember I used to go soul winning with him on purpose, which I hated. I hated doing it. But I would go because, I don't know, maybe something in me was curious. But mostly I just wanted a relationship with him. And I was like, this is the way to be with him. What he would do was he would bring my grandma. They would come for the grandma and grandpa visit to our house, and he would walk. He would pull up, walk in the door. We would all have to put on long dresses, cover up our legs, and. And it couldn't be. One time I messed up. I put on a jean skirt and I ran out to the car. I took off my summertime shorts, you know, and I put on a jean skirt because that's. He'll approve of that. He wouldn't talk to me if I, you know, wasn't in a dress. And he looked at my dress and I tried to hug him in the driveway, and he wouldn't hug me. And I started, like, pulling on my jean skirt, like, wondering what I did wrong. And he was. I was like. He eventually told me when I asked him, he was like, denim is the devil's fabric. And I was like, really? And he was like, yeah. And I was like, why is that? And he was like, because it's designed to show what you got in the front and the back. And I'm like, at the time, I remember the time being like, whoa. And then later thinking about it, I'M like, you perv. You're looking at the front too, buddy. What are you looking at? You're looking at the. I wonder if there's some like weird gay repression in there with him or something. I don't know. I, I, or self hatred or something. But, and, and he would deposit his wife, my grandma in, in an easy chair in our house and he would go back out and get in the car and go to the local nursing home. He went to nursing homes because he, it's just like shooting fish in a barrel like you, you to do the soul thing. To do the soul winning. He would knock on the door, he'd check the nameplate at the door. Ruby, how you doing today, Ruby? My name's Carl and I got a question for you. $64,000 question if you died today, Ruby. And she's shaking with pleasure at having a visitor. She's so lonely. She's so excited somebody's talking to her. This handsome man in wingtips and a cheap suit and brill cream hair walks in and is talking to her and holding her hands and she's just already crying. And I'm just watching all this and he'd be like, yeah, sixty four thousand dollar question. Ruby, if you died today, would you go upstairs or would you go to the bad place? This woman's got one foot in the grave, one foot on a banana peel. And so she's of course, just like, I want to go to the good place, you know. And so she, he would be like, why don't you repeat this prayer after me? She repeated it, write down, see you later, Ruby. And walk out. Check the name plate at this door. James, how you doing today, James? My name's Carl and I got a question for you.

John Dehlin [00:14:22] Wow.

Holly Laurent [00:14:23] And one time I saw him get in a fistfight with a Catholic. His church thought Catholics were wolves in sheep's clothing. And he was trying to soul win a Catholic guy. And this old man got cantankerous, tried to punch him and like fell out of his wheelchair forward. And so I was like, whoa, grandpa. But. And no. One time I went with him two days in a row and he hit the same dementia ward two days in a row. I'm like, that doesn't count. But he kept his, he kept his promise to God that day at least, even if it was the same souls. But those people didn't know that kind

John Dehlin [00:14:59] of has the same vibe as his proxy work for the dead. It's just kind of like this super, this is a Mormon practice, but it gen Tell me. It's just like this superficial ordinance where you got to win the souls, and it's kind of rote and mechanic, and you just got to get it done and onto the next and onto the next. And how many can you rack up?

Holly Laurent [00:15:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:16] I don't know.

Holly Laurent [00:15:17] And then it will.

Jenn Kamp [00:15:17] You'll never get to all of them, as you can watch John Larsen's episode, but you'll never get to.

John Dehlin [00:15:24] Yeah, all of them. But it reminds me of a Mormon practice of just like, soul winning through baptizing dead people. It's. It's not totally dissimilar.

Holly Laurent [00:15:33] Wow.

John Dehlin [00:15:33] I don't expect you to process that. No, that's real time.

Holly Laurent [00:15:36] But that's fascinating.

John Dehlin [00:15:37] Anyway. It's.

Holly Laurent [00:15:37] Is it. Is it also based in snatching souls out of hell and getting them into heaven?

John Dehlin [00:15:41] Yeah.

Holly Laurent [00:15:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:42] Like, if you die. The theology is if you die without being baptized Mormon. Right. With the right authority, then you go in heaven, your spirit goes to a place called spirit prison, and it's just there. It's kind of like a Catholic version of limbo or whatever.

Holly Laurent [00:15:58] It's called purgatory.

John Dehlin [00:15:59] Yeah. And then. Then you're waiting because you haven't gotten a baptism yet, and a confirmation, that counts. But if a Mormon goes into a temple and gets baptized in your name, in your literal name, then you can smokes, then you can accept that baptism in spirit prison. And then once you accept that baptism and confirmation, you get to move on and you get to go to heaven. But it's an interpretation of the Bible that says, except you're born of the water and the spirit, you cannot enter the kingdom of God. Mormons interpret that to mean a literal Mormon baptism and confirmation. But it. But it. You know, you go to the Mormon temple, and it's like you sit there in the font with a Mormon guy in a white jumpsuit, and you're literally in the water in a baptismal font.

Holly Laurent [00:16:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:47] And he's like, you know, holly Laurent, have you made commission of Jesus Christ? I baptize you in the name of Jose Guadalupe, who is dead, in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holly Ghost. And then you get baptized and. But then it's like, holly Laurent, have you been commissioned of Christ? I baptize you the name of Maria Guadalupe Hidalgo, who is dead, in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holly Ghost. Amen. And it's like these rote rituals are somehow going to save somebody. Does that sound. Does it sound familiar?

Holly Laurent [00:17:18] Yeah, dog. So when you're in.

Jenn Kamp [00:17:21] Are way more complicated, we have to have the baptismal font, and they just can go up to the door.

John Dehlin [00:17:26] Yeah. You just have to get them to recite some little thing. The sentence your grandpa just got on to recite some little thing. What were you gonna say?

Holly Laurent [00:17:32] But it's so funny, because when you hear someone else's. The specificity of someone else's belief system always sounds so. Like, this is clearly bananas. Right. But, like, that's. That's what all of them sound. But when it's yours, you don't hear it at the time. You don't hear it until you do.

John Dehlin [00:17:48] Yeah.

Holly Laurent [00:17:48] But I heard that recently with Margaret Atwood. Somebody was asking Margaret Atwood about Elizabeth. What's her name, Moss, who played the girl? Gilead. The. Because Margaret Atwood wrote the Handmaid's Tale. Handmaid's Tale, Yeah. And the woman playing the lead in the Handmaid's Tale.

John Dehlin [00:18:07] Scientologist.

Holly Laurent [00:18:08] Is a Scientologist. And so they were asking Margaret Atwood, how do you feel about that? Or whatever. And she was like, well, you know, it's. Of course, Scientology Sounds absolute Bennett. It's.

Jenn Kamp [00:18:18] It's.

Holly Laurent [00:18:18] It's, like, bonkers.

John Dehlin [00:18:20] Yeah.

Holly Laurent [00:18:20] But she goes, compared to what?

John Dehlin [00:18:22] Yeah.

Holly Laurent [00:18:23] Like, if you listen to any of them, it's like, oh, like, ours is a talking snake. How did it talk? It doesn't have mandibles. You know, it's like. Okay, and. And. But my question is, okay, so if you're in prison.

John Dehlin [00:18:36] Yeah.

Holly Laurent [00:18:36] Can you, like, in. In human life prison, you can, like, write letters to the governor, try to get off death row, whatever. Can they contact anyone from there? Or. It's just like, if someone has the thought to go get baptized for them.

John Dehlin [00:18:50] So if I'm playing the role of a Mormon, it'd be like, you know, we don't totally understand all things we don't know.

Jenn Kamp [00:18:57] Oh, I. They told me there's missionaries in heaven. There's missionaries receiving the discussion. Yeah. And they go down to prison, and they'll give them the missionary discussions that they do.

John Dehlin [00:19:10] But, Holly, aren't you asking if they, in spirit prison, can come visit us in. In.

Holly Laurent [00:19:15] Or can they get any message of, like, I'm in prison, y' all give me a dunk.

John Dehlin [00:19:20] So, yeah, in Mormon theology. Mormon theology, yeah. There are stories in Mormon mythology, there are stories of, like, someone's a Mormon is, like, sleeping, and they have a dream, and it's their great grandma who comes to them in the dream and says, do my work for me, so can it be? But that's not, like, in the mainstream. Mormon zeitgeist.

Holly Laurent [00:19:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:42] That the spirits in spirit prison are constantly coming, but it can happen.

Holly Laurent [00:19:46] And is it like prison prison? Do you need food?

John Dehlin [00:19:48] It's probably Gucci, but it's spirits, you know, don't ask too many questions is what the church would always say. You're, you know, you're asking too many questions.

Holly Laurent [00:19:57] Does that have a title? Somebody who asked too many questions. Are they called something?

John Dehlin [00:20:00] It's called, you know, someone who could be an apostate. You know what I mean? Like a skeptic.

Holly Laurent [00:20:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:06] A doubter.

Jenn Kamp [00:20:08] Waste of time.

John Dehlin [00:20:09] Dangerous. What's that?

Jenn Kamp [00:20:10] I said waste of time. Missionaries. If they are asking too many questions.

Holly Laurent [00:20:15] This stuff is fascinating. It completely fascinates me.

John Dehlin [00:20:19] Okay, but back to you.

Holly Laurent [00:20:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:21] So your grandpa and grandma are kind of your, Your paternal and maternal grandparents are kind of hardcore Christians.

Holly Laurent [00:20:27] At some point they became cultish in their, like, fundamentalism. Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [00:20:31] And so you.

John Dehlin [00:20:32] But you're raised by hippie, dippy Christian parents that were still kind of purity culture.

Holly Laurent [00:20:37] Very purity culture.

John Dehlin [00:20:38] So let's talk about your upbringing by your hippie to be Christian purity culture parents.

Holly Laurent [00:20:45] They. My mom, I think was a little bit sheltered and her. But her parents were. Her. Her dad was a Northern Baptist seminary trained preacher and he was the preacher of the First Baptist Church of Niles, Michigan. And we lived in Niles, Michigan. So I went to, to First Baptist Church of Niles, Michigan, where my grandpa was the preacher and he baptized me when I was 12 and all of that.

John Dehlin [00:21:12] So your grandpa was the preacher, Your mom's dad was the preacher?

Holly Laurent [00:21:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:15] Of our church you were baptized into? Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [00:21:17] Okay.

Holly Laurent [00:21:18] And. And he was a really lovely man. He was, he was, you know, he had the good stuff. He had the what? I don't know if you're familiar with the fruits of the Spirit.

John Dehlin [00:21:32] We want to hear all about it.

Holly Laurent [00:21:33] So in the New Testament, I don't

John Dehlin [00:21:37] you mean, do you mean charismatic kind of Pentecostal kind of stuff? Speaking in tongues and.

Holly Laurent [00:21:44] No, I was always scared of Pentecostals.

John Dehlin [00:21:46] Okay.

Holly Laurent [00:21:47] They really scared me. I had a Pentecostal babysitter for a while and when my parents would be out of town for long trips, she would take us to her church and I would get so scared because they'd be speaking in tongues, being slain in the spirit, all that stuff. And our church was very like, you come in, you sit in the pew, you sing the hymn, you listen to the sermon.

John Dehlin [00:22:09] You know, Pentecostals would call speaking in tongues one of the gifts of the Spirit. So I'm Curious what you, what you think meant when you.

Holly Laurent [00:22:17] The fruit of the spirit.

John Dehlin [00:22:18] Fruit of the spirit.

Holly Laurent [00:22:19] Biblically is okay, that if you have the spirit of God inside of you, you will bear certain fruits in your life. And those fruits are love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, and self control.

John Dehlin [00:22:33] Yeah. And so say this slowly again.

Holly Laurent [00:22:36] Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness and self control.

John Dehlin [00:22:45] Self control.

Holly Laurent [00:22:47] It's like the, that's like the Boy Scouts. Have you ever heard the boy Scouts?

John Dehlin [00:22:51] Trusted.

Holly Laurent [00:22:51] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:52] Trusted, loyal, patient, virtues, thrifty, kind, clean Reverend.

Holly Laurent [00:22:56] Yeah, so, but. So those fruits of the spirit were. Those were fallen off my grandpa's tree. My mom's dad, he was very, he was very kind. He was very lovely person. And, and so yeah, I grew up with him as the pastor. But you know, he, he kind of had a hard time with my mom marrying this. You know, like my dad, he looked like a 70s, like, you know that, like Burt Reynolds or that kind of like porn star look of like he's like tan, he's got the mustache, he's got the great hair. And my dad is like funny and he's a storyteller and he's a great speaker and communicator. And so he. So my parents, from the time I was born, my, my early years were all about my parents band. They had a band called the Good News Circle. And they wrote and recorded a lot of albums and they got quite a following. And they started out, they were one of the first ever Christian rock bands. And they started out playing like high school assemblies and county fairs to eventually stadiums. Like they opened up for Billy Graham in one of. In a Billy Graham crusade at Texas A and M University.

John Dehlin [00:24:13] Wow.

Holly Laurent [00:24:14] And the reason I know that is because if you Google the Good News Circle, it's the first thing that comes up and you can watch this video of them being like, welcome to Texas A and M University with Reverend Billy Graham. First we're gonna hear these lovely kids from Chicago who are gonna sing a song to us called I Just Wann Jesus. And my dad's up there in a plaid on plaid leisure suit, you know,

John Dehlin [00:24:39] and we're gonna include that in the show notes. Jen's already looking at it.

Jenn Kamp [00:24:42] Ah, good.

Holly Laurent [00:24:44] So yeah, they. And so they were making albums. They ended up with an office and where they had a newsletter going out to their fans and they're like Dove award winning albums on the wall.

John Dehlin [00:24:55] And did your dad, was he lead singer? Did he play guitar? Was your mom in the band?

Holly Laurent [00:25:00] Yeah, my mom played piano and backup singing, and my dad played guitar, and he was lead, but the lead would sort of switch between a few guys, depending on the songs. But he would write a lot of the music, and they put out these albums. And so my earliest memories are of sort of being backstage, feeling that subwoofer, like, the beat in my body, you know, of. Of being behind the, you know, the. The wedges and all the sound stuff, and sitting on hard folding chairs or, like, falling asleep on the floor, like, during concerts and. Or, like, running off. My brother and I. I have a brother that's two years older than me, and we would kind of, like, when my parents got on stage, we'd take off and go look for, like, change and try to find ice cream and, you know, like, it's funny, in the 70s and 80s, nobody knew where their kids were any. Any time. Now, like, they actually have, like, leashes on kids or helicopter. They're chipping. Get. Like, my dog has a chip. Maybe people are going to start chipping their kids. What.

Siblings, Rock Band, and Family Dynamics

John Dehlin [00:26:07] So what ages were your parents, like, running a rock band, like, and other siblings? How many siblings?

Holly Laurent [00:26:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:13] So in your birth order, like, all that?

Holly Laurent [00:26:15] I'm the second of four.

John Dehlin [00:26:18] Okay.

Holly Laurent [00:26:18] I have a big brother, and I have two little sisters. And I think in my early years, I'd say the first, I don't know, five, six, seven years of my life, it was mostly just, you know, half the time being home with my mom, half the time being on the road with all of them. Eventually, my mom came off the road because she was having more kids. She actually had five pregnancies. The child after me, like, didn't make it. And. And that was really hard on them. But it's funny, I grew up going to. He only lived for a few hours. He was born at, like, maybe she was six months pregnant. He probably would have survived today, but they just didn't have the TEC technology. He was, like, in an incubator. My dad said he could hold him in his hand. He was so small, and he would have, like, probably been blind and not. He. He wasn't fully developed, and he didn't make it. But they had, you know, a little casket and a funeral. And I grew up going to my brother's grave. And the stone, his gravestone says, Joshua David Laurent, August 22, 1976. Jesus is Lord. That's all it says. And my parent, I remember always just looking at that and being like, jesus is Lord on the grave of a dead baby is intense, man. Like, I think the incredible pain of that experience just drove them even deeper into the like perfect loving arms of a comforting heavenly father. And, and so they, on the very grave of their dead child, they declare that Jesus is Lord. It's intense. And, but my dad too, I think like my dad's father was so unkind to him and hurt him so deeply and made him have such a crushing low self esteem and self loathing and all that. That like the idea when my dad got bit by that idea of a heavenly father who perfectly loves you, I mean that's, that's, there was no going back from that.

John Dehlin [00:28:27] Like a replacement father that's living that

Holly Laurent [00:28:29] he, he needed that and, and that gave him what he needed. And so let me ask you this.

John Dehlin [00:28:35] Yeah, so, so let's just say from 0 to 13, how, how was Christianity practiced in your home? So not most evangelical Christians parents growing up weren't in a rock band, but what was a Christian? What did a Christian life mean to your family? Let's just say from 0 to 13 years old and then we'll talk about high school as kind of its own thing. Yeah, but like how did Christianity manifest itself in your family?

Holly Laurent [00:29:07] Such a great question over the practices. It was very important to always be in church. You had to be there physically

John Dehlin [00:29:17] every, every Sunday.

Holly Laurent [00:29:18] Oh yeah. Keeping up appearances, you know, and praying before every meal. We would, my parents would bring people like pick up hitchhikers a lot and try to save them. Bring Mooney's home and like feed them. And like we would, a lot of times we would have people at dinner as a kid, I'd just be like, there's some new stranger sitting at dinner. And my parents were, you know, evangelizing them and trying to, you know, in their minds they were like, we have, we are holding the truth that can save the world. And if we don't reach out to every person we can to try to share that love with them, to change their life and also get them out of a gnashing teeth, eternity of eternal torment, which, I mean, let's talk about that. Like annihilation would be compassionate. We gotta be an eternal torture. But so yeah, people showing up at our table a lot of like daily devotions. And it was just all we talked about. Everything, everything was this, this dualism of heaven, hell, Jesus, Satan, angels, demons. I mean I grew up with all the adults in my life telling me to my face as a very sensitive kid, telling me to my face that there are very real invisible demons surrounding us all the time, like seeking to like, like Bring us down and destroy us. And I mean, I would lay in bed and I, I would get to the point where I, I would envision them. I know. Have you ever had like a sleep paralysis nightmare where you're like, I'm not asleep, but I'm not awake and I can't move and I can't talk or whatever, where I would like, like swirling, like where the sky would start to swirl above me like Ghostbusters and a demon would like, like fly down. Its whole hand would be bigger than my body and it would just put a talon in my mouth. And I like, could. And I thought that's why I couldn't talk, is I was under demonic attack because I watched people at, at my dad's shows a lot of times. Like, my dad would go be like the chaplain at a summer Christian youth camp and he would be leading praise and worship and then he would give this like, powerful message. And what, what I saw happen a lot as a kid was people would be possessed by demons. Their eyes would roll back in their head, they would start foaming at the mouth and shaking uncontrollably with the. And you'd hear the demon like gut, like moaning out of them. And my dad would run over, place a hand on them and lift a hand to the sky and say, in the powerful name of Jesus, I cast you out. You have no place here. And, and, and supposedly, according to the Bible, demons hate the name of Jesus. They cannot abide by it. They hate it and have to get the hell out if you say the name of Jesus. And so I, and I mean, John, it took me well into adulthood to be like, oh, at rock shows with lights and crowds and whatever, epileptic people have seizures that are followed that are where your eyes roll back in your head and you have guttural noises and you're violently shaking. Oh my goodness. Like, ha. And, but, but like it being so real to me and me being really creative and imaginative. Like I would, in sleep paralysis things, I would be like, I'm under demonic attack. And I would see these things. That was probably just a nightmare, but I thought it was very real. And so I was. The fear in me was so, so, so deeply soul crushing. I, I really, I really, really struggled. And then there's also a thing in, I mentioned earlier that I always felt like a black sheep. And the thing that really scared me is there's this thing in evangelical. I don't know if it's like Calvin, Calvinism, if it's like Augustine, Augustine, how do you say, but do you. Are you familiar with predestination?

John Dehlin [00:33:39] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Holly Laurent [00:33:40] Do you have predestination?

John Dehlin [00:33:41] No.

Holly Laurent [00:33:42] And not you, but no.

John Dehlin [00:33:44] Joseph Smith would have been down on predestination.

Holly Laurent [00:33:47] So I got a hold of that ideology and then became very afraid because I was like, oh, no. That's why I can't find the Jesus gear in my shifter. I'm not predestined. And I was put into a Christian family. And so I've been exposed to the truth of the gospel and it doesn't matter because I'm not holding the right ticket to get into the, you know, at the deli, they're never going to call my number because I'm not predestined. You know, all these, like, these ideologies that when I latched into a man, it really messed with me. And let me.

Childhood Theology and Worldview Inventory

John Dehlin [00:34:24] Can we do a quick theological inventory? Because I just want to ask you a bunch of theological questions of like how, what, what your worldview was religiously in your childhood. Is that okay?

Holly Laurent [00:34:35] I'd love to.

John Dehlin [00:34:35] Okay, so I'm gonna just say some ideas or words and you just tell me as you're a kid growing up what, how you would have described that idea or concept. Okay. Okay. So God, what was God to you growing up as an evangelical Christian?

Holly Laurent [00:34:50] The all powerful divine creator of the universe who loves us deeply and. And who. But who so. But who is so. But our sin problem disgusts him. So that the very nature of our existence being sinful is it tarnishes the good things of God. And so God had to create a path for us to be able to be redeemed and be with him because he loves us so much. He wants us with him, but we can't be with him with sin.

John Dehlin [00:35:31] And if you were to kind of describe God's personality type. Well, first of all, was God a man? Was he male?

Holly Laurent [00:35:39] Definitely super male. Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:43] And did God have a body?

Holly Laurent [00:35:46] Well, yeah, because we're made in his image. So it's got to be kind of like this. It's anthropomorphized. Okay, think. I think. But also. No. Like it's big and invisible and everywhere all at once.

John Dehlin [00:35:55] Okay, and then what was God's personality?

Holly Laurent [00:35:59] A loving, perfect father.

John Dehlin [00:36:01] Okay.

Holly Laurent [00:36:02] Who only wants what's best for us, but cannot abide by our sin problem. So he's got to kill his kid or sort of kill himself.

Jenn Kamp [00:36:12] And.

Holly Laurent [00:36:15] But here's a. That question is interesting, John, because two things. Two things exist with the God of the Bible that I was raised with one is perfect, loving heavenly father who will sacrifice dearly to redeem you and restore you and be in a perfect, beautiful relationship with you. And then there's also this warlike God who is vengeful and murderous. You know, Lot's wife just turned to look back at the home that she loved and he turned her into a pillar of salt. He cast Adam and Eve out when they disobeyed him. So like, you know, when you think of a like, perfect, loving relationship, you don't ask someone you love and trust to obey you. You don't ask your wife to obey you, you know, but obedience is a big thing. And with the personality of this God, like, if you don't obey and get in line, you will be cast out. So there's not a lot of. For as much as the message is about like reconciliation, restoration, there's also time and time again in the Bible, he cast Adam and Eve out of the garden when they disobeyed. He cast Lucifer out of heaven when Lucifer disobeyed. He cast the people of Israel to wander in the desert for 40 years when they disobey. You know, it's like very. And, and you know, he has an angel of death somehow that goes around Egypt and kills all the firstborn babies like that. How do I hold that? With perfect, loving heavenly father. And also. But I do have an angel of death, you know, and, and, and also, like, think about the way we treat, you know, mothers. Like if a mother had a child and, and put that baby into a little cradle and then threw a bunch of like straight edge razors in there, we would lock her up and throw away the key. But God put Adam and Eve, his perfect creation that he loved so much in this garden and then put a death tree in there. Why is that in there? This is what I would always drive my Sunday school teachers crazy because I was always like, wait, why does God need Abraham to kill his kid to prove his love to him? Like, why? You know, and they would. But there's an answer for everything, you

John Dehlin [00:38:48] know, because what I'm. What I think I hear you saying is that God is simultaneously all loving and compassionate and kind but super judgmental, harsh, vindictive as well. It's almost like a bipolar personality where he can love you better than anyone, but damn you to hell. Both.

Holly Laurent [00:39:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:09] So which is it? Is it both?

Holly Laurent [00:39:10] So there's such cognitive dissonance in it. And evangelicals will love to tell you all the time that like the, the God of the Bible and this Belief system, like is not mental gymnastics. It is not intellectual suicide. That is a big thing. And I'm like, how so?

John Dehlin [00:39:27] Well, what's most important is how you experience God as a kid. So you're a kid and you're trying to reconcile an Abrahamic God that basically asks a dad to stab his child.

Jenn Kamp [00:39:40] Right.

John Dehlin [00:39:41] And even if he says no, don't worry, just kidding, you don't have to do it. If someone did that in real life, that would be viewed as horrific parental abuse.

Holly Laurent [00:39:49] Right.

John Dehlin [00:39:49] So there's that kind of dad and then there's like loving, kind.

Holly Laurent [00:39:53] Right.

John Dehlin [00:39:54] Knows you personally and cares about you

Holly Laurent [00:39:56] and, and the kindness and the goodness and the love is shown in the person of Jesus.

John Dehlin [00:40:02] Right.

Holly Laurent [00:40:03] That God poured himself. I sometimes I like to take away the. It's. It makes it more interesting and like sticky to me to replace he with it because I think it helps us get to other like, like interesting like ideas of consciousness in the nature of reality and what might be going on here.

John Dehlin [00:40:21] But, but right now you're a 12 year old Christian girl.

Holly Laurent [00:40:25] Yeah. And I always asked all those questions of like, cool, cool. He loves me so much. I've never experienced any kind of love like this. That is the, the thing that makes the world go round. But also if I don't love and obey him and dedicate my life and loyalty to him, he. He's gonna torture me for eternity. Because the, the. The beautiful person of Jesus part. Self sacrifice, redemption, giving of your life, creating a way to be together. The only way that's possible is like blood has to be shed. Like so. Because. Wait, so God's making the rules, right? Yes. God made everything, right? Yes. So God made a hell. Why? Why would God make a hell? Also.

John Dehlin [00:41:22] Okay, this is sounding so super familiar.

Holly Laurent [00:41:24] So, so God made everything. So, so got me the rules. So, so God must have known that we were going to sin. God put a death tree in there. He set us up to disobey. And then, and then now that our disobedience, our. The very nature of our sin condition is so detestable to him that somebody's gotta die. That has to be the way we redeem is through blood. Like if I was like, john, you have disappointed me so much, I'm gonna kill your friend. It's like you'd be like, you're a psychopath. Like we lock people up who, you know, so all that cognitive dissonance.

John Dehlin [00:42:04] I have a question though.

Holly Laurent [00:42:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:05] Okay. Because in Mormonism, Joseph Smith evolved to God and Jesus being literally two totally separate Beings that Jesus is literally the son of God, just like we're children of God. And so God and Jesus weren't one. They're not in Mormonism.

Holly Laurent [00:42:21] Is Jesus God in Mormonism?

John Dehlin [00:42:23] So Jesus has God superpowers, but Jesus is the son of God. So God, I mean, this is Mormon theology. I'd rather focus on your story. But like, God maybe was a human like us in some other existence, but was super righteous and so graduated to become a God. And then God had a bunch of spirit children. Jesus was the first of 50 billion spirit children.

Holly Laurent [00:42:47] Wow.

John Dehlin [00:42:48] And then. So we're brothers and sister. We're brothers and sisters with Jesus as children of God. And then Jesus as an independent being was God's chosen child to be sent to Earth to be sacrificed for the rest of us. But what I was going to say is, in your theology, God's kind of killing himself. Because if God and Jesus are really the same thing in your Christian theology, then it almost seems less barbaric because in our theology, it's like Abraham literally God as Abraham literally killed his child, being Jesus.

Holly Laurent [00:43:25] Right.

John Dehlin [00:43:25] In your theology, God's this superhero that can be in multiple places at once where he just kind of amoeba ties is a part of himself, sends that down as Jesus. Jesus gets killed, but Jesus is God, so why is that even a bad thing or a sacrifice? And then Jesus goes right back up and amoeba ties back into God. Is that even like a tragic thing? Like, if I was teenage, you, I would have been like, how is that really a sacrifice if God is just kind of harming himself a little bit, but then like it. Right. So, I mean, anyway, but you're in your mind, it was still a violent act, even though God was kind of doing it to himself. This is how my Christian Mormon brain would have worked.

Holly Laurent [00:44:02] This is fascinating to me.

Jenn Kamp [00:44:04] And.

Holly Laurent [00:44:05] And the story of Jesus death is presented to us as just the most beautiful thing of. Like, it is the ultimate representation of love, is that you would give your life, you know, but does it. Do both of those come from. Because the Greeks had previously their gods started to have sex with human. Like Zeus would have sex with a human woman, and then there would be a son of that God. So they're. So the. The Greeks predated us and they had sons of God. So then we're like, oh, we have a son of God too. I mean, is that kind of weird?

John Dehlin [00:44:44] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Some would say Christianity is just a. It's like remix.

Holly Laurent [00:44:48] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:48] Christianity is just a remix of earlier form yeah. Even a lot of Christ's teachings about, like, being in the present moment.

Holly Laurent [00:44:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:55] Some people say his Buddhism just mixed in with.

Holly Laurent [00:44:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:58] Greek mythology and.

Holly Laurent [00:44:59] Right.

John Dehlin [00:44:59] And. And a lot of the. Even pagan stuff, you know, it's kind of remix. Everything is remix.

Holly Laurent [00:45:07] Every. I mean, everything is. Right.

John Dehlin [00:45:09] Yeah.

Holly Laurent [00:45:09] And. And it's fascinating to me, John, because it makes me think, like, from coming from the tradition I come from. One of my biggest problems with it is that. That it's taken literally because we do keep making these stories. It keeps evolving these stories that humans are telling as storytelling creatures. We've been telling these stories for all these centuries. And it morphs. And it morphs. And it morphs. It's a big game of telephone, you know, of like. But it's religion. And, you know, always at the point you're currently at, it has reached its perfect apex of truth. We are so lucky that we here in the Midwest of America, in this little blue dot in the cosmos, we are holding the one truth, you know. But what's interesting to me is if you don't take it literally and you listen to the evolving stories that all these humans have been telling from. From all of them that we know of recorded history, whether it's like Tibetan Buddhism. Buddhism, Mormonism, Scientology, Evangelical Christianity, Fundamentalism, Islam, you know, all the. If you. If you. If you look at all those stories and. And don't take them as literal, but take like, what is the meaning that we're trying to communicate? There might be something really, really valuable there, and you might be able to, like, put them all together and actually make some connections that. That start to, like, work and make sense. Yeah, but we're. But what we do is we get. We get hung up on the, like, yeah, like, what if there is something. And let's call that thing God?

John Dehlin [00:46:52] We're gonna come to this. This is how we're gonna do this.

Jenn Kamp [00:46:54] What if.

Holly Laurent [00:46:54] Okay, I'm getting there. Too bad. Sorry, sorry, sorry.

John Dehlin [00:46:56] No, no, no.

Holly Laurent [00:46:57] We're go planet to have a material experience. And what if it. And what if we're talking about us?

John Dehlin [00:47:04] No, I didn't mean to. I didn't. I like. What I like to do is kind of follow the chronology and then kind of like see where we are today. But that's. I love that thinking. And can we promise. Jen, can we make a note. I want to come back to that. But. But I want to focus on what you were experiencing in those moments.

Holly Laurent [00:47:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:22] And I'm trying to figure out whether your conception of God and Jesus. Well, Jesus's sacrifice, It doesn't sound so tragic and violent to me if God's doing it to himself.

Holly Laurent [00:47:34] Yeah, that's so interesting.

John Dehlin [00:47:35] But how did you think of it when you were taught Crystal your Christology

Holly Laurent [00:47:39] like that, like you're saying of like, wow, I mean, he loves us that much that, you know, wow, it's this beautiful. You know, he laid down his. His life, his own life, God's life.

John Dehlin [00:47:50] So you saw it as Jesus as a manifestation of God laying down his own life for us?

Holly Laurent [00:47:55] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:56] Because I was wondering, if God's a superhero, does he really feel pain like us? Is it really a sacrifice if he gets to be a God anyway, before.

Holly Laurent [00:48:04] I know? And is it death if he comes back?

John Dehlin [00:48:07] Right, right.

Holly Laurent [00:48:08] And that's.

John Dehlin [00:48:09] Were these thoughts you were having? I'm not trying to project me back into your.

Holly Laurent [00:48:12] I don't think I was now, you know, in adulthood, I've started to. But then, you know, as a kid, you believe what you're told, and I was hook, line and sinker man.

John Dehlin [00:48:23] So what were your feelings for Jesus?

Holly Laurent [00:48:29] I wanted so badly to get it right and to be in this most meaningful, beautiful relationship with him, but honestly, it never made sense.

John Dehlin [00:48:40] What relationship were you told you should have with Jesus that you were striving for?

Holly Laurent [00:48:46] I think that's the problem is the word relationship. Because I was. As a kid, I was. And maybe that was part of me being like. Like, I'm doing it wrong. Because, like, to me, a relationship was with a friend or a parent or my grandpa. You know, a relationship was that I'd go ride his riding lawnmower with my grandpa when he was cutting the grass. How do I do that with Jesus? You know?

John Dehlin [00:49:08] But when you say doing it wrong, what were you trying to do? Or what was what. What was in your mind doing it right based on the perception other religious people had given you?

Holly Laurent [00:49:18] Maybe liking it. I didn't like it. I was like, we were supposed to do our devotions. We were supposed to, like, pray all the time. I think the relationship.

John Dehlin [00:49:29] Did you pray to Jesus or God?

Holly Laurent [00:49:31] A lot of times as a kid, we would begin prayers by saying dear Jesus.

John Dehlin [00:49:35] Okay, so you're praying to Jesus.

Holly Laurent [00:49:37] That's very personal, but that's also God. So it gets tricky, but it's. It's. I think, you know how we still do this all the time. You look around and everybody seems to have it together and to be fine. And then when you talk to a person individually, they don't have it together, and they're not Fine. And you're like, oh, okay, I guess it's okay that I don't have it together. And I'm not fine either. But we just always imagine everyone else's. So I, I was doing that with Christianity. I was looking and I was like, everyone's feeling these songs and they, they're feeling this love for Jesus and they're feeling that connection almost like, like it's almost like now like with cannabis, your consciousness can be like, here is my mood, my day, me right now, I want to change it. And you're distinctly like immediately in your mind you're like, and now I am like my, my. I am different. And, and there's something I like about that that is distinct. It's like a switch. I am, I am sober, I am high. And I think what I was doing, looking at them and I was like, I'm sober and they're all high and I can't figure out how to click into that thing that they're doing. Cuz I don't want to be here. I don't like these songs, I don't like these stories. I don't like praying. It doesn't feel like a relationship to me. Talking to an invisible boyfriend, which is what you're selling me is supposed to give me the greatest peace, joy and comfort of my life. It ain't working.

John Dehlin [00:51:14] Yeah.

Holly Laurent [00:51:14] And so I just was like, ah, okay, man, that's such a good question, John. I don't think I've ever like, I'm a verbal processor and that helped me even like make some sense of my childhood.

John Dehlin [00:51:25] Oh, that's great, that's great. Let's keep going. So what was the, the Holly Ghost? What did that mean to you as a Christian, as a kid, as a teen? Was that even a part of it? The Holly Spirit?

Holly Laurent [00:51:36] Big.

John Dehlin [00:51:36] What was the Holly Spirit? What was its role? What did it do?

Holly Laurent [00:51:39] The Trinity is very important. Though it does not appear in the Bible. The Holly Spirit is the third part of the Trinity. I don't know in what century that became like a Christian doctrine. But they pieced together verses that sort of referenced in the upper room, these flames came over the disciples heads and they began speaking in an unknown tongue and la la. And that was the Holly Spirit speaking through them or whatever. So even though the, the title, the Trinity, you know, doesn't exist in the Bible, also so many things don't exist in the Bible that the church sort of references as if it's in the Bible, but it's not like heaven is not in The Bible, the. The time in which Jesus lived, they had no concept of a soul. That's a newer idea. So when Jesus talked about the kingdom of Heaven, he was talking about a community on earth. He was talking about still being in space and time. And. So wait, now I just. What were we talking about?

John Dehlin [00:52:48] So the Holly Spirit, what was the role of the Holly Spirit?

Holly Laurent [00:52:52] So the Holly Spirit became. Is the third member of the Trinity. The Trinity is a very important doctrine in Christianity and, or in evangelical Christianity. And the Holly Spirit, it's so hard to describe. It's actually like the way we were taught it is that it's water vapor and ice are all the same H2O, but they're in different forms. And that's how you know the H2O doesn't change. You can drink it in this form, you can crunch it up and eat it in this form, or you can inhale it in this form, but it's always the same. And so, yeah, so I guess God is water, Jesus is ice, and the Holly Spirit is vapor. It's so hard to say what it is, but the way I was told it as a kid is that. And that's why those scary people would be speaking in tongues was because they would open themselves up to the Holly Spirit who gives them what's called a prayer language. And where they're just going like Hamanahamana. And. And that is the Holly Spirit speaking through them because their sp. Their personal spirit is unable to express its own love for the Creator God adequately. And so the Holly Spirit comes into you and speaks it for you, through you in this like, unknown language. And the Holly Spirit also is sort of like a bonding agent that makes us love each other and we're all Christian brothers and sisters in Christ. And the Holly Spirit is the one bonding us. The Holly Spirit is also the way you would describe intuition. The Holly Spirit is the one giving you that idea. The Holly Spirit will tell you,

John Dehlin [00:54:48] will

Holly Laurent [00:54:48] put things on your heart to pray about, to confess, to go visit that lonely person. The Holly Spirit is the one telling you that it's a commi. It's sort of like God emails.

John Dehlin [00:54:59] I guess that's good.

Holly Laurent [00:55:01] I got an email from the Lord.

John Dehlin [00:55:04] What was the Holly Bible to you?

Holly Laurent [00:55:08] God's the. The book that God gave us to explain all of the nature of reality, where we came from, what it's all about and where we're going. It's the ultimate truth. It was God breathed. So even though it was written by human beings, God was doing it through them.

Jenn Kamp [00:55:27] And,

Holly Laurent [00:55:29] and everything we need to know is in there. And it is completely. It is sacred text. It is not to be taken lightly. It's not to be dismissed, and it's not to be touched or added to or anything. It's meant to be taken literally. It's perfect.

John Dehlin [00:55:47] So it was perfect. Inerrant.

Holly Laurent [00:55:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:51] Okay.

Holly Laurent [00:55:51] And. And the inerrancy of the gospel is. It's something. It, it is Timothy in the book of first Timothy that the, the book is inerrant. Blah, blah. The funny thing about that is they, they read that Christians read that verse and apply it to the entire Bible. But that, like, wasn't canonized till, like, you know, centuries and centuries and centuries later. And that writer could only have been talking about the, the one letter he was writing.

John Dehlin [00:56:20] Right. Because he didn't have any idea put together until later.

Holly Laurent [00:56:23] He didn't have an idea of. Of those 64 books. And the canonization of what we now say is like the perfect God breathes holy text.

Biblical Literalism, Noah's Flood, and the Age of Earth

John Dehlin [00:56:33] Age of the earth.

Holly Laurent [00:56:35] Age.

John Dehlin [00:56:36] How old was the earth when you were growing up?

Holly Laurent [00:56:41] We're going on, let's say if most people live to be almost a hundred, then we could say that it's like there have been 20 or 30 generations of humans on this planet. It just over 2000 years ago.

John Dehlin [00:56:53] I mean, that Jesus came 2000 years ago.

Holly Laurent [00:56:57] I guess Jesus came 2000 years ago and just a little bit before that, God made the entire universe and everything

John Dehlin [00:57:04] in it so literal. Garden of Eden literal.

Holly Laurent [00:57:08] Adam and Eve, we all came from them. And I always was like, wait, but now that you told me what sex is, who was boning to make offspring? Adam and Eve's sibling. Adam and Eve's children.

John Dehlin [00:57:21] Yeah, because Adam and Eve would have. Adam and Eve's children would have had to engage in incest.

Holly Laurent [00:57:25] Yeah, I would always remember that. Yeah, I would. Always in Sunday school, I'd be like, wait, Adam and Eve's kids were all having sex with each other and making children? But that's the only way it could possibly be.

John Dehlin [00:57:37] What was the answer to that?

Holly Laurent [00:57:38] And then also Noah's kids. They. It had to have happened again. Oh, no, no.

John Dehlin [00:57:41] What would the answer have been to that question? Question?

Holly Laurent [00:57:46] Shut up.

John Dehlin [00:57:48] Shut up. Would it have been shut up, you dumb.

Holly Laurent [00:57:51] No, it would have been. Gosh, I mean, I asked it so many times. What did they say? I. The answer for that, for, for those tricky ones was always. It was like a different thing back then. It was different. It was. It was like they were able to in the same way God Was able to inseminate Mary with a baby without any, you know, contact taking place or whatever. In that same way, he can also, you know, make it not have been that the brothers and sisters were banging. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:58:33] No, in the flood.

Holly Laurent [00:58:35] Yeah. What about.

John Dehlin [00:58:36] What was the view on that global flood? Every two of every animal in the boat.

Holly Laurent [00:58:42] Yep. It was a. It was a cute, darling, lovely story of how much God. I mean, the twist, the spin of. Of how much he loves us, that he would save us is like, Wait, hold on. Genocide of the entire planet and everything in it, all the species, everywhere except for, I guess sea creatures probably did fine, but everything else died. Like, and. And like, everything, like mosquitoes, tigers. I have to kill everything in existence because I'm not getting worship and obeyed. Worshiped and obeyed. It wasn't looked at like that mass genocide. It was looked at like God had to clean house. This happens from time to time. He had. The world had become so wicked that he had to destroy everyone in the whole planet. Except there was one righteous man and his family. They went on the boat and then it was so cute. The animals came on two by two and Z, two zebras, two giraffes. And I love now to this day to like. I was just recently talking to a Christian who was real trumpy. And I was like, oh, let's have a little fun. And because he kept telling me that he was. He had just been to the Creation Museum. Have you heard of that?

John Dehlin [00:59:59] Yeah.

Holly Laurent [01:00:00] And he said, where is it? Somewhere Kentucky, Tennessee, something.

John Dehlin [01:00:04] Okay.

Holly Laurent [01:00:04] And there they have. From the measurements in the Bible, they have recreated an actual ark built in proportion to the cubits that are mentioned. And it's like, however long and it's however many stories high and you can walk through it and everything. And. And this guy was telling me about having been there and about how amazing it was. And just imagine that, like, the tigers wouldn't even, like, eat the sheep because the tigers.

Jenn Kamp [01:00:36] This.

Holly Laurent [01:00:36] The Holly Spirit. I was also told this. The Holly Spirit came into all the animals so that they wouldn't eat each other. And that also I was told in my Christian school, in a science class, I was told that the way God flooded the whole Earth is that the planet Earth at that time had a water canopy in the atmosphere that completely surrounded the sphere of the planet. A layer of water in the atmosphere, and it created a greenhouse effect. And so everything on Earth was really, like, lush and stuff where it was like, warm and mild and it was perfect conditions for people like T Rexes and brontosauruses. And stuff. And when the two brought. And. And so the way God destroyed the Earth is that he collapsed the water canopy to flood the whole Earth like that.

John Dehlin [01:01:31] That's where the water came from.

Holly Laurent [01:01:33] Yeah. And then. And that's how you could flood an entire planet in the cosmos at the same time.

John Dehlin [01:01:38] Okay.

Holly Laurent [01:01:39] Not even thinking that. Like, wait, The Bronze Age tribal writers who wrote this, they thought the whole world was what they knew, which might have been 20 miles approximately, you know, like. And so there could have been a flood that killed a bunch of people in a little village. And they were like, the whole world was destroyed because that's all they knew.

John Dehlin [01:02:04] Their perspective. Yeah.

Holly Laurent [01:02:06] So. So the.

John Dehlin [01:02:08] We just did an episode on the. On the flood, Noah's flood, just a week or two ago. So we'll include that in the show notes for those.

Jenn Kamp [01:02:14] Oh, yeah. Ye.

Holly Laurent [01:02:16] I was told is the brontosauruses got off the ark and the environment of the planet Earth had changed so drastically.

John Dehlin [01:02:23] Not having. The brontosauruses were on the ark.

Holly Laurent [01:02:26] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:02:26] Wait, aren't brontosaurus is bigger than an ark?

Holly Laurent [01:02:29] Yeah, probably.

John Dehlin [01:02:31] How do they have fit.

Holly Laurent [01:02:32] I know.

John Dehlin [01:02:32] If they're bigger than the boat.

Holly Laurent [01:02:34] But the two got off and with no. And with no canopy around the Earth anymore, there was no greenhouse effect. And so all the dinosaurs immediately died. And so that's why.

John Dehlin [01:02:44] How they fit on the boat.

Holly Laurent [01:02:46] I know, I know. And also, if there's no evolution, I always. So this person was telling me about

John Dehlin [01:02:52] how was evolution viewed. Oh, when you were growing up.

Holly Laurent [01:02:56] As lies made up by scientists who hate God. And this. This guy, this Christian, who was telling me about the Creation Museum and how powerful the experience on the ark was. He had a chocolate lab with him. Cutest dog. And I kept looking at the dog, and I was like, were there two chocolate labs on the. On the ark? And he was like, well, yeah. I was like, two yellow labs. He was like, yeah, two black labs. Yep. I was like, are there two English bulldogs? And he was like, of course. And I was like, how'd they get there from England? How'd they. England's an island. How'd those English bulldogs dogs get to the Fertile Crescent? It was a long walk.

John Dehlin [01:03:39] What about the kangaroos?

Holly Laurent [01:03:40] What about the kangaroos? But that was an explanation for why. Because. Because I'm looking at your chocolate lab and like, that's evolution. Your dog is actual evolution. Like, we genetically created that by using the laws of evolution. Like, no, no, no. Were there two Yorkshire terriers on the ark?

John Dehlin [01:04:03] All right, so. But. But literal flood. Oh, yeah. Growing up.

Holly Laurent [01:04:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:04:08] Okay. What was sin? What were the big sins that you were taught are, like. And there's kind of like sins that no one in the family should do and then like really big sins. But what. How was sin described and what sins were really emphasized in your family growing up?

Sin, Salvation, and Being Saved

Holly Laurent [01:04:29] It was just don't smoke, don't drink, don't have sex.

John Dehlin [01:04:34] Cigarettes, alcohol and sex. Yeah, we're sins.

Jenn Kamp [01:04:38] Yeah.

Holly Laurent [01:04:39] And. And I mean, the ten Commandments, those are big ones. But the, the three, the smoking, sex and booze is. That's even in terms of like the, the. The constantly, like, pounding it into my brain that they gave me. Sin is a condition that we are born with because of the curse, you know, from Eve in the garden. Also a great way to tell 51 of the Earth's population, all the females that, like, not. If. If you go for what you want and you go take what you want, you'll not only destroy your life, you'll destroy everyone's life for all time in the entire planet. Poor Eve. But it's a condition that we have that is, again, like we were talking about earlier, so detestable to God that it separates us from God because he's perfect. And sin tarnishes that perfection. And he can't be tarnished because he's perfect. But he wants to be in a relationship with us, so he has to wash us in blood and to sanctify us to be able to be with him in a relationship. And so sin is just this condition that we're born with because all humans are. And the only way to take care of that problem is to repent, to acknowledge that you are wrong, that you are bad, that you are shameful, and to repent and to throw yourself onto the mercy of the death of Jesus Christ, to redeem you and wash away your sins so that you can be with God and not bring your sin problem along.

John Dehlin [01:06:30] Okay, so you talked about that thing your grandpa did. I'm sorry. Soul winning. So, like, did you have to win your own soul? Like, was there an idea of being saved? What did being. And if so, what did being saved meant? Not when you're trying to save someone in the old folks home to get them to say the magic words. But like, how would. Like, you're. You're being raised in a Christian faith.

Holly Laurent [01:06:53] Faith.

John Dehlin [01:06:54] How did you or family members become saved? If that was even a thing.

Holly Laurent [01:06:59] You have to literally say the prayer. So you have to. And the prayer I was given was, dear Jesus, please forgive me for every sin I Ever committed, you know, I believe that you died to save me. I believe in you. I devote my life to you. You know, forgive me for my sins. And I. I want to be in a relationship with you. I want to walk, you know, with you and be with you forever. Someday in heaven.

John Dehlin [01:07:23] Is this, like, written in a pamphlet somewhere?

Holly Laurent [01:07:25] Sometimes, yeah. Like, you can get tracks, like, people will pass out, like, for you, little zines.

John Dehlin [01:07:32] Those words you just said, were they literal, or was it a prayer you literally read? Or was it.

Holly Laurent [01:07:38] We just heard it so much because we were also supposed to, like, tell other people, you know, what to say? We learned it in Sunday school.

John Dehlin [01:07:44] And do you do it? Like, is there a date to time where you're like, I'm gonna. Gonna profess this?

Jenn Kamp [01:07:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:49] And is it in front of the whole congregation?

Holly Laurent [01:07:51] It's usually, like, with your parents or, like, for me, it was because. Because they kind of say there's an age of accountability and kind of when you reach reach that age where you. I. I think what it is, is just developmentally, as a kid, you can under. Now you can understand it. So now you have a choice to make. Do you. Do you want to, like, be with God in heaven? Yes. Do you want to, you know, be with Jesus? Do you believe Jesus died for your sins?

Jenn Kamp [01:08:18] Yes.

Holly Laurent [01:08:18] Okay, so do you want to, like, say this prayer with me? Yes. And so then. And just like that, you're. Now you are a Christian, and now you are saved from.

John Dehlin [01:08:28] Do you remember when this happened to you?

Holly Laurent [01:08:30] I remember.

John Dehlin [01:08:31] Well, who's around?

Holly Laurent [01:08:32] Like, I would say it was really early. I probably did it in Sunday school or with my parents or my mom or something. I. I kind of have, like, a sensory memory of it, but I. I don't remember where I was. But the thing is, John, I. For me, the math never worked because I was like, well, I did it, and so I'm saved. But also, you know, then I sinned again or whatever. I remember, like, I would admire Catholics because I'd be like, oh, they can go to confession. I wanted that tangible thing, you know, of. Like, I can go to confession, confess it. I'm done. But I was afraid that even though I had said the sinner's prayer, that I would then do something so egregious or whatever. Because there's also a belief within this belief system that you can't even think something, because if you think something to God, you have done it. So if I think about murdering you, like, I've actually now committed the sin of murder. If I Think about having sex with that person to God, I've already done it.

John Dehlin [01:09:36] It.

Holly Laurent [01:09:36] And so that math to me, like, destroyed me because I was like, oh, no. So what I did was I started doing it almost like a breathing thing all the time, because I. So I would just, all the time as a kid, be like, dear Jesus, please forgive me for every sin I ever committed. I love you, want to be with you forever. I would just do it all the time in case there was an indiscretion I forgot about or wasn't aware of or whatever. In case I got hit by a car, in case I died in my sleep. I was. Was just always saying that prayer to try to cover if I'd done anything bad.

John Dehlin [01:10:11] So I'm going to pull out my psychologist training for a second. Is that okay?

Holly Laurent [01:10:15] Love it.

Scrupulosity and Religious OCD

John Dehlin [01:10:15] Does the term scrupulosity mean anything to you? Have you ever heard of that term before?

Holly Laurent [01:10:19] No.

John Dehlin [01:10:20] So as you're. I mean, we talked in the car before. Like, as you're trying to heal from the trauma of your upbringing and process everything, there's a. There's a psychological condition called scrupulosity that is basically religious obsessive compulsive disorder.

Holly Laurent [01:10:36] Order.

John Dehlin [01:10:38] I'm gonna cue to your face. This is. This is the thing. So. So we. When we think of ocd, we think of, like, arranging things or, like, cleaning things or washing your hands.

Holly Laurent [01:10:50] Right. Clicking the doorknob.

John Dehlin [01:10:52] Yeah. Like.

Holly Laurent [01:10:52] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:53] There's a form of religious OCD where you're obsessed about purity or cleanliness or worthiness and things like hyper confessing to an ecclesiastical leader or hyper praying to God or hyper reading the scriptures or hyper ruminating or even praying or reciting a prayer is a form of obsessive compulsive disorder with a religious manifestation. And it sounds like you may have had that.

Holly Laurent [01:11:25] Whoa.

John Dehlin [01:11:26] And this is not something I'm making up. This is a legitimate.

Holly Laurent [01:11:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:29] You know. You know. American Psychological association diagnosis.

Holly Laurent [01:11:34] Wow, that is so. I'm so glad you told me that, because I'm gonna go, like, see, like, am I currently ocd? That would explain a lot of stuff. That's great. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:46] If you're so worried about your worthiness.

Holly Laurent [01:11:47] Yeah. Oh.

John Dehlin [01:11:48] That you're monitoring every potential bad thought.

Holly Laurent [01:11:51] Right.

John Dehlin [01:11:51] And then constantly. That's a ritual.

Holly Laurent [01:11:54] Right, Right.

John Dehlin [01:11:54] So. So OCD always has two parts. It has the obsessive thoughts.

Holly Laurent [01:11:59] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:12:00] Safety or cleanliness or whatever. In this. In your case, worthiness.

Holly Laurent [01:12:04] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:12:04] And then the compulsive behavior that. That is hopefully going to neutralize the obsessive thoughts or the anxiety of the. And so the. The hyper reciting of the sinner's prayer would be a. A compulsive ritual to neutralize your obsessive thoughts.

Holly Laurent [01:12:21] Wow. I am so glad we're having this talk. That's fascinating, John. Wow.

John Dehlin [01:12:30] You know, so you cared. It's not that you didn't care. See, this is the thing that I've learned. A lot of post Mormons didn't leave the church because they cared too much, too little. Which is the stereotype. The stereotype in Mormonism is people leave Mormonism because they never really believed or they never really were committed.

Holly Laurent [01:12:48] Did.

John Dehlin [01:12:49] Right. But what I found is a lot of the people that leave were taking it super seriously. Yeah. But they were like, everyone else seems happy, but I'm not. And I'm not just gonna lie and fake it. I really want to feel what everyone's. I'm supposed to be feeling.

Holly Laurent [01:13:04] Right.

John Dehlin [01:13:04] And I really believe in this purity thing of like, pure thoughts. I want to have pure thoughts, but I keep having the bad thought, oh, what do I do? And then you develop the compulsive behavior.

Holly Laurent [01:13:15] Wow.

John Dehlin [01:13:15] As a way. So you care. It's not that you didn't care. Or weak.

Holly Laurent [01:13:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:21] Or uncommitted. It's that you cared so much. You were taking it so super seriously.

Jenn Kamp [01:13:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:25] And it was causing you so much. And I'm not trying to project.

Holly Laurent [01:13:28] No, I really, really appreciate this because now even as you're talking, I'm like, I'm having more memories of, like, speaking of earlier, I said I would have sleep paralysis that I thought was a demonic attack. I. Because of those things happening, you believe

John Dehlin [01:13:44] that the demons were real. You were taking it seriously.

Holly Laurent [01:13:47] And so I think I developed sleep disorders because what I started to do, because I knew demons hated the name of Jesus. And so all night long I would be like, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus. And I would. I would be like, as long as I am saying Jesus, demons will peace out. Because they'll be like, oh, we hate them. They can't be around it. And. And so I would. Would try to not sleep and say Jesus all night long. And now my whole life I've had the most insane, like, sleep disorders and sleep problems. Holly smokes.

John Dehlin [01:14:18] So maybe you had a little scrupulosity.

Holly Laurent [01:14:21] I. I'm gonna have to have you write that word down for me later.

John Dehlin [01:14:23] It's in the show notes.

Holly Laurent [01:14:24] I got it for you.

John Dehlin [01:14:25] I actually did my master for my Psychology PhD. I did a. My master's thesis on the treatment of scrupulosity. So that's why I know a little bit about.

Jenn Kamp [01:14:34] About it.

John Dehlin [01:14:35] Whoa.

Holly Laurent [01:14:36] I did my master's thesis on performers getting up in front of audiences to test their existence to see, like, do you see me? Do I exist?

John Dehlin [01:14:50] Nice. Okay, so you were a conscientious kid, really trying to take all this religion seriously and really trying to be pure and good.

Holly Laurent [01:14:59] I guess so, yeah. I was really. I really was. I tried. I tried so hard. And then I think, honestly, I got so beat down by the fear. And now what, this scrupulosity.

John Dehlin [01:15:12] Scrupulosity.

Holly Laurent [01:15:13] Scrupulosity, yeah. Of. Of my crushing OCD that I'm now discovering that I just started to rebel. I mean, I tried.

Purity Culture and Adolescent Sexuality

John Dehlin [01:15:22] Let's talk about your adolescence, though. So let's go to your lessons. Yeah, I'm sure. What were the purity rules? So in moral. Mormonism is like, don't drink, don't smoke, don't do drugs, don't have sex, don't have bad thoughts. Dress modestly. What were the. What were the purity standards that you were trying to live up to? Be righteous, be pure, have a soft voice, you know, Exactly. Follow your gender roles. What were yours?

Holly Laurent [01:15:43] 100. All those you said.

John Dehlin [01:15:44] No, no, I didn't want to plant that.

Holly Laurent [01:15:49] It was. Wait, let me think. Wait, wait. Say the question again.

John Dehlin [01:15:57] What were the purity standards and the religious standards you were trying to conform to as a teen? And then how did that go? And then what was the result of it maybe not going so well?

Holly Laurent [01:16:09] The purity culture was big, big, big, big, big, big. And that was really hard on me, man.

John Dehlin [01:16:15] Like, what were the standards?

Holly Laurent [01:16:20] I think it was okay if you kissed a boy, had to be hetero, but it really should be, like, maybe just like, you know, the. Like a peck kind of smooching. Maybe you'd get into some of the tongue stuff. But be very careful, you know, like, don't do that. It's probably better just to not even kiss. And of course, nothing past that.

John Dehlin [01:16:50] What about dress?

Holly Laurent [01:16:51] Yeah, modest is hot as

John Dehlin [01:16:56] mini skirts, the tank tops.

Holly Laurent [01:16:59] The role of a female is to protect the thoughts of the males. So we were told that, like, the way men are wired, they're more sexual, they're visual, they get turned on, like, visually. And so you have to hide anything you got. You know, we would still, like, have bathing suits in the summer and stuff,

John Dehlin [01:17:21] but one piece or were bikinis okay?

Holly Laurent [01:17:24] One piece.

John Dehlin [01:17:25] Okay.

Holly Laurent [01:17:25] And, you know, I. Of course, as soon as I was a teenager, I got a bikini. And, you know, they did not like that. But I was like, I have a long torso. The one pieces go up my butt. I was like, I have to break it up. Long torso. So. But I mean, my dad, like, when I got, you know, to be a teenager, I mean, my dad, like, almost every single time I would walk in the door, my dad would go, still virgin, still virgin. Still a virgin. Still a virgin.

John Dehlin [01:17:58] Are you joking or.

Holly Laurent [01:17:59] No, just checking in.

John Dehlin [01:18:01] Like, like, tell me how he would actually.

Holly Laurent [01:18:03] Oh, he would do it kind of jokey. Yeah. Like he'd be like, oh, yeah, he's still a virgin. He would come over and smell me to see if I smelled smoky. It would be sort of.

John Dehlin [01:18:11] You'd go to a party or whatever. Whatever.

Holly Laurent [01:18:13] Yeah. And he, he would hug me. He would. I, I wondered if the hugging was a veiled. Just checking for cigarette smoke smell. But a lot of times when he would hug me, he would say, girls who get affections, girls who get affection from their fathers don't sleep around. And I was always like, dad, shut up. Like, let me, let me go. I, I look back at that now in adulthood, and I'm like, whoa. Like to be constantly sexualized, you know, at that age too, when you're like so uncomfortable in your body. And my sexuality was such a constant conversation in my home in terms of like, checking in on it of like. And man, that like, was very, very, very hard.

John Dehlin [01:18:59] And how can I make it so you don't think about it all the time if it's all your parents are.

Holly Laurent [01:19:03] I know. I'm like, you're clearly thinking about it all the time because you keep bringing it up to me all the time

John Dehlin [01:19:09] and so want you never to think about it when that's all they talk about or care about. Yeah. Is that right?

Holly Laurent [01:19:14] Yeah. Yeah. And you're getting horny and that's so confusing and scary. And then, you know, you do start, like, kissing and, and, and, and, and I, I, it's, it's, it's funny. Like, to this day I sometimes feel like in, in sexual scenarios, like, I'll almost feel like my arms start to like, go in front of me, like in an X. Really, like rigidly, where I'm like, whoa. It's just all this, like, muscle memory of like, getting turned on and then like, putting up the big barrier between me and him of like, you know, and that was a thing too. Of like, we can't, you know, you would smooch and get all like, turned on, but you wouldn't do anything else. But then you'd kind of start like, Grinding on each other in your clothes and like, oh, I feel something there, you know, and then the like, abject terror that would come after that, you know, like we had our clothes on the whole time, you know, but like, like the guilt and shame and all that stuff, but like, the. The way it played out for me in my home was just a lot about my sexual purity. My dad, he told all of us and it was like honor system, but he told he had three girls and he was really. It was really important to him that they stay sexually pure. And so he. He told all of us that if we had never been kissed by the time we were 16, he would buy us a car. So now, like, we're our. Our purity is like being purchased, you know, I didn't. I didn't make it. My. My baby sister did.

Jenn Kamp [01:20:54] And I did that same thing to my daughter. I'm in a confession.

John Dehlin [01:20:58] Wow. I didn't know that.

Jenn Kamp [01:21:00] Jen. Yeah. Jen Camp confession. Yeah. I told one of my daughters I'd give her 500 bucks if she didn't kiss anyone until she was.

John Dehlin [01:21:07] Until 16. Wow. So this is. This is ringing familiar to you?

Jenn Kamp [01:21:12] Yeah.

Holly Laurent [01:21:14] And the, The. I understand, though. And it was always a little bit jokey, you know? You know, but I understand that because, you know, I think pregnancy destroyed the lives of so many women that they're just trying to protect us. Like, it will destroy your life if you get knocked out up and can't abort.

Jenn Kamp [01:21:39] I was. Yeah. And I was 18 when I got married and. And had my first baby.

Holly Laurent [01:21:46] Your skull wasn't really hardened yet.

Jenn Kamp [01:21:48] And I have four daughters, so, like, I. I kind of did the same thing, which I. I am not proud of right now, but I would like, I almost like. I don't know what the word is, but I would tell them, you know, no, no kissing in till you're. I think I was said 16. No kissing till you're 16. You can't go only group dates until you're 18. You. Something about like college. I forget what it is, but anyways, I had like, rules, and I was like, just follow these, you know, and then in my mind I'm like, if they knock a couple years off of each of those and they'll be okay.

Holly Laurent [01:22:33] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [01:22:34] You know, but I'm like, like. And I think it was me just like, I want you to go to college. I want you to live on your own. I want you like, all the things that I didn't get to do. I was trying to like, make sure they, of course, got there but, but

John Dehlin [01:22:48] Jen, thanks for sharing that. But for Mormons, it's more than that too. It's that. And I was gonna ask you this. Like, in Mormonism, we're taught that sex, premarital sex is a sin next to murder. So it's kind of like murder and, and premarital sex. So like, for us, it's more than just like, don't want to have pregnancy. It's like you're going to be doing something that's horrific in God's eyes.

Holly Laurent [01:23:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:23:11] What was it for you if. If like is your dad's not wanting you, is your dad's desperate that you marry a virgin?

Holly Laurent [01:23:20] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:23:20] What is he believing and what is he teaching you that would be the implications or the consequence of, of, of committing such a grievous sin? What would happen if you had premarital sex to God or in your faith? What would it mean?

Holly Laurent [01:23:36] You are, you're damaged goods. You know, you're. That was a gift. You're supposed to save for your husband. You know, God's idea of marriage, like now is you're, you're thrown off track. You know, you, you, you messed up the perfect plan. You know, God has a plan, man, and you can't jump the rails, man, or you will have a worse life. You will suffer. You will end up with a guy with, with a shitty husband because, you know, a good and upright man isn't going to want to marry. You know, we had youth group where

John Dehlin [01:24:10] they finish that sentence, a good and

Holly Laurent [01:24:12] upright man isn't going to want to marry a. Or, you know, all that shaming a girl who's like already giving it away. You know, he's going to, to. So you're going to end up with a lesser. You're going to have a lesser than life, you're going to have a lesser than spouse, a lesser than life, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And in youth group, they, we would all often have these purity talks from our youth pastor at church and stuff. And they would do all these, like, they would give us all construction paper, fold it in half, cut a heart, open up the heart. And then, you know, they would say, like, if you kiss a boy, like, they're tearing apart off of your heart. And if you sleep with a boy, you're tearing apart part off of your heart. And then, and then, you know, and, and also when guys have sex with girls, they, it like dehumanizes the girl. She now has like lost her precious power or whatever. And so you crumple up the construction paper and, and so in the end, they're like, this is your heart and you're in terrible pain and no one will ever want you. And, you know, and, and, and, and, and. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:25:19] Can I just connect with you on this?

Holly Laurent [01:25:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:25:21] Mormon culture, they would take a fresh stick of gum and then chew it up and say, well, this is. This is you if you're a virgin.

Holly Laurent [01:25:29] Fantastic.

John Dehlin [01:25:30] Now I'm gonna. Now I'm gonna chew it up. And this is you if you have premarital sex. So it's basically. That's what you're. This is what they tell women. Yeah, the men didn't kind of get the men.

Jenn Kamp [01:25:41] Yeah, I was just gonna say that they. This is given to the women and young women's. Or they would bake us all cupcakes.

Holly Laurent [01:25:47] That.

Jenn Kamp [01:25:47] And then they would lick off the

Holly Laurent [01:25:49] frosting and they'd be like, eat this.

Jenn Kamp [01:25:51] And then like, that's what if.

John Dehlin [01:25:52] This is what marriage.

Holly Laurent [01:25:54] That's what you are.

Jenn Kamp [01:25:55] You, You. This is what you get to offer your future husband. You don't get to offer. You don't get to offer him the one with the sprinkles and the frosting and like the, you know, different things, the really great, yummy ones. No, you get. You offer him just like this cupcake that has nothing on, that's been pulled apart.

John Dehlin [01:26:12] And what we're saying is we have the same. We basically have the same object lessons.

Holly Laurent [01:26:17] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:26:17] Slightly modified.

Holly Laurent [01:26:19] Think about those lessons, man. I mean, I'm a chewed up piece of gum. I'm this, like, complex.

John Dehlin [01:26:25] You were a crumpled piece of.

Holly Laurent [01:26:27] Crumpled up piece of construction paper, of red paper.

Jenn Kamp [01:26:31] And at least you can be taped back together, I guess, maybe.

John Dehlin [01:26:35] What do you mean, chew the gum? You can't unlick the cupcake.

Holly Laurent [01:26:38] Right, Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:26:40] But also you can't uncrumple the paper. You can't. Yeah, it's still dam. It's still. Think about an uncrumbled piece of paper.

Jenn Kamp [01:26:46] Jesus. Iron it out.

John Dehlin [01:26:47] Right? Oh, man.

Holly Laurent [01:26:49] And also, like, you mean this guy? Like, if. If. If my animal body, like, rubs its genitals against another animal's genitals. You. You mean to tell me that that act dehumanizes me in some way, but not your metaphors for what I am. Your metaphors of, like that I am a chewed up piece of gum. Like, I would say that is dehumanizing. I'd say that is not taking into account that I am a, like, complex being that's alive and evolving with intellect and vision and creativity and like, no

John Dehlin [01:27:26] but that's how you feel.

Holly Laurent [01:27:28] I know, but at the time I absorbed all those messages and I was just like, holy.

John Dehlin [01:27:33] Are you feeling emotional right now?

Holly Laurent [01:27:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:27:35] Why? Like, so take us back. You're a teenager now. You've got your dad's virginity checking you all the time. Time. You. You don't want to be a crumpled up piece of paper. How did the Christian. Did the Christian dream start falling apart for you in high school? And if so, how it did?

Holly Laurent [01:27:50] And the way it did was that.

John Dehlin [01:27:54] Was it a boyfriend? Was it a party? Like, did. Did something happen? Like, was there a beginning to the end?

Jenn Kamp [01:28:01] Yeah.

Holly Laurent [01:28:01] What was that?

John Dehlin [01:28:02] Started turning down the dark path kind of thing?

Holly Laurent [01:28:05] It was. It was probably.

John Dehlin [01:28:07] If you want to show.

Holly Laurent [01:28:08] Yeah, it was in high school. I just started. You know, that's where you start to. I mean, developmentally, it's where you start to break away from your family unit in terms of, like, I'm a. I'm an individual, and here's how I'm going to express myself. I'm going to wear Minor Threat T shirts. I'm going to wear these sneakers. I'm going to. You know, you start to be like, I'm a. I'm a me, me. I'm not just a member of this family. And I think I started doing that really, really strongly. And I think. I think, yeah, when I started with boys and, like, I honestly was just drawn to. I wanted to fit in. I was looking for belonging. And I just started, like, going to high school parties and stuff. And, like, some. Some boy I liked one time was like, smoking, and he was like, do you want me to teach you how to smoke? And I was like, yeah, like, just to be rebellious. It's that thing of, like, all that repression almost leads to obsession. I see it with so much of the community that I come from, the tradition I come from, the thing that they're so prohibitive about is. It's like what you're saying. It's like. Like, you want me so badly not to have sex, but all we do is talk about my sexuality. It's so prevalent in this environment. And so now I'm like, seeing myself as a sexual creature because I'm seeing myself through your eyes, because I think you're only seeing me as a sexual creature. You know, you.

Jenn Kamp [01:29:44] That.

Holly Laurent [01:29:44] That repression, I mean, as a psychologist, is that like a real thing of that repression is like, the other side of. The other side of that coin is obsession.

John Dehlin [01:29:55] It totally can be that way. Yeah. Yeah. Like. Like. And I want to focus on Your story. But like, in our culture, porn is like the worst thing a teen can do almost besides sex. Like porn.

Holly Laurent [01:30:08] Look at porn.

John Dehlin [01:30:09] So. Yeah. And so, so you can't go to a Mormon church service without porn being mentioned. And so porn's mentioned all the time. And the worst thing you can do, guess what the per capita porn use in Utah is, is Utah is like one of the highest, if not the highest, per capita porn usage state in the country. Because you combine and this is.

Holly Laurent [01:30:29] A psychologist won't stop talking about it. So the kids are like, I got to see what this is exactly.

John Dehlin [01:30:33] You combine. Never, never think or talk about it or do it with. It's the most horrible thing. If you do and then you get a teenage brain, you're actually multiplying the, the frequency and the severity of whatever behavior you're trying to squelch.

Holly Laurent [01:30:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:30:50] So you create the monster that you claim you know, everyone should fear. You create it in the people. So is that what happened to you? So you're trying to not be sexual with boys?

Holly Laurent [01:31:00] Right. But that's so funny, John. I, I, I'm having so many revelations because as you're saying it, I'm like, oh, yeah, I wouldn't have until today said that, but that's exactly it.

John Dehlin [01:31:11] How was it for you? So you're trying to be pure, Your dad's virginity checking you constantly.

Holly Laurent [01:31:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:31:17] You go to these parties and then,

Holly Laurent [01:31:19] and, and, and I just, I, I liked it. I was like, I. And it's so funny now to look at it in that light and be like, oh, maybe the reason was because it was so all around, around me all the time that I was just like, all right. It almost was like curiosity killed the cat for me.

John Dehlin [01:31:36] Where I'm like, don't look in the closet.

Holly Laurent [01:31:37] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:31:38] Yeah.

Holly Laurent [01:31:38] So I finally looked and so you're,

John Dehlin [01:31:41] you're saying you had sex?

Holly Laurent [01:31:42] Yeah, when I was, I, when I was 17. And then, and all around that same time, I, I drank, I smoked, and I had sex. And so I was like, well, I guess now I am. With a capital F. How did it feel?

John Dehlin [01:31:56] I mean, it probably felt great at the time. I wasn't asking that. I'm saying afterwards.

Holly Laurent [01:32:01] Oh, I was, I wanted to die. I wanted to. I was like, like, I was like, I mean, I was like, hell is going to be really rough. And, and, and in evangelicalism, I'm not even, like, doomed to hell because I did the worst three. I, I could be forgiven for that if I threw myself on the mercies of Jesus. You know anytime, like, he will always. His grace is sufficient. Right. But I just knew, I was like, oh, no. I was like, this is, this is who I am. And, and looking back, it's who you are. It's who all of us are. We who were created to procreate or we wouldn't be here. I, I, I, I'm fascinated with the church's obsession with. No masturbation. I would think that if you, if you do want to curtail, some of the, like, real problems can come from actual sex. Like, why wouldn't you be telling all the kids, like, go to town, man. Go crazy. It's just you and your body. It's not going to hurt anybody.

John Dehlin [01:33:01] I actually, I actually have an answer, but I don't want to derail your story. But, but, you know, I mean, Mormon is, in Mormonism, you need the, you need the members to feel like they're dependent on the church. Right. And so you need them sinning so they can feel terrible, so that they can turn to the church to get forgiven for their weaknesses. So you tell them not to masturbate or look at porn or have any sexual behavior. And you do that enough, they're guaranteed to do those things they're not supposed to do so that they're guaranteed to feel horrible, which is what you want, so that then they can go confess and say they're terrible and I need you church more than ever. And that's how you bind them. So it's, I'm not saying it's cynically a business model, but I call it Mormonisms and maybe Christianity's business model. You want the members to feel shamed and horrible and terrible.

Holly Laurent [01:33:55] Right.

John Dehlin [01:33:55] So that they need the church. Which is exactly what happened to your paternal grandpa, right?

Holly Laurent [01:34:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:34:01] Like your dad's dad.

Holly Laurent [01:34:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:34:02] Got in horrible places and eventually how did he clean up? He confessed to the church and realized that he needed the church to keep him on the straight and narrow.

Holly Laurent [01:34:13] I mean, John. Whoa, Nelly. It's, that is so interesting because I don't think, I don't think people in church, like pastors or bishops or anything, they would never say no.

John Dehlin [01:34:28] I don't even think they think, I

Holly Laurent [01:34:29] don't think they're necessarily conscious of it.

John Dehlin [01:34:30] I don't think it's conscious in, in

Holly Laurent [01:34:32] the tradition I come from, they would say, say honestly, it's that it's the best way to live is to not be like touching yourself all day and sleeping around and getting hammered and hurting your lungs. Like, they would say it's just the Best way to live. And it's also, they would say, it's that we are called to be like Jesus, and Jesus wasn't jerking it and sleeping around and sticking it in people and smoking cigs in the Bronze Age in the Fertile Crescent. And, you know, Jesus wasn't doing that. And we're called to be like Christ, and it's gonna give you a better life is what they would say. But, but this.

John Dehlin [01:35:05] And I think they believe that.

Holly Laurent [01:35:06] They 100% believe it.

John Dehlin [01:35:07] There's truth to that.

Holly Laurent [01:35:08] There is truth to that, absolutely. And they 100% believe it. And, and, and, but the sinister thing underneath that, that you're referencing of, like, this is a shame cycle, and we are in a place of Stockholm syndrome, where we love our captor and, and think about it like, like the, the essence of this whole relationship we have with this creator is that, like, it's all based on guilt and shame. Like, you, you need me because you are shameful. Will you admit it? Yes, I am shameful. I am in need of you. Please forgive me and bring me into your fold. Wow. Wow. I need a cigarette from this talk, and I don't even smoke.

John Dehlin [01:35:57] It's kind of a codependent, you know, abusive. It is spouse kind of relationship.

Holly Laurent [01:36:05] It is, it is, it is.

John Dehlin [01:36:08] Without intending to be so, without intending to just give people the best lives as possible. But, but what's the classic indicator of an abusive partner? You. You're nothing without me. Yeah, right.

Holly Laurent [01:36:22] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:36:23] You need me.

Holly Laurent [01:36:24] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it would break a lot of good people's hearts to hear these words, and they would fundamentally say, you are wrong. And that is not true. And that is the thing I, I, I notice all the time. I try to pay attention to that in me, because I know, because when you see someone else doing it, it stands to reason that I'm probably doing it in other ways. You know, like, I, I felt like that a lot with, like, Black Lives Matter movement of, like, oh, wait, if I've this whole time been like, cops are good. Cops are good. Cops are the good guys. Cops are the good guys. And then all of a sudden I'm like, oh, wait, this is a, this is an organization that's established in really, like, systemic racism, and it's hurting a lot of people, and it's essentially there to protect white wealth and, like, our brothers and sisters of color are being murdered in front of us all the time.

Learning to Lie and Codependency in a Religious Home

John Dehlin [01:37:29] Paradigm shift, right?

Holly Laurent [01:37:30] Yeah. And so when I go from like,

Jenn Kamp [01:37:32] oh, wait,

Holly Laurent [01:37:36] what are the other ways in which I'm going, but cops are good. Cops are good. I have to be doing it in other ways.

Jenn Kamp [01:37:41] Ways.

Holly Laurent [01:37:42] And, and what are those ways? It sort of keeps me up at night. Like, what?

John Dehlin [01:37:46] Yeah.

Holly Laurent [01:37:46] What are my blind spots? What are the things that I'm doing? Even, like you, Janet, saying, like, oh, I. I did that with my kids. And your intentions were so good.

John Dehlin [01:37:57] Right.

Holly Laurent [01:37:57] And you would have passed a lie detector test of, of that because you believed it was so good. Was. What are the other messages we are giving people sometimes with good intentions. I know. I'm doing it too.

John Dehlin [01:38:15] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [01:38:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:16] Jen, you were going to say something.

Jenn Kamp [01:38:17] Oh, yeah, I forgot what I was going to say earlier, but. Yeah, exactly. And I think that's. That's actually been part of the hardest. The hardest part of my deconstruction from the LDS Church is that seeing all the times where I thought I was doing good and I thought I was being a good parent and. But the perfectionist culture that I was putting onto them, like, I've had to, like, sit down with them and apologize to them and try to speak differently and, like, learn different habits now. And at the time, I thought I was doing so good, you know, I thought I was saying the right things and, like, teaching them the right, you know, modest is hottest, you know, kind of things. And, and now, like, just the way I've changed, the way I've talked, like, my daughters even see it. Like, my second daughter came to me in, in tears and we had a conversation because she was jealous of how I was talking to my youngest because she's, she was like, I wish you would have talked to me like that moment, Mom. And it was, it was hard. I had to sit in that and kind of take that in and, like, understand that, you know, I thought I was doing. I was doing the best I knew how to do at the time, but I'm so glad that I know better now.

Holly Laurent [01:39:48] Right.

Jenn Kamp [01:39:49] And I'm trying to do better.

Holly Laurent [01:39:51] Right. And at least you got there, but.

Jenn Kamp [01:39:53] Yeah, yeah, but I see, like. And that's why I think I can hold space for everyone where they are, because I. Yeah, I remember being there and I remember thinking I, I was doing good.

Holly Laurent [01:40:08] Right.

Jenn Kamp [01:40:08] You know.

Holly Laurent [01:40:09] Right.

Jenn Kamp [01:40:09] You know, which probably your parents are thinking, you know, like, I, I was trying to, you know, bring her up and.

Holly Laurent [01:40:15] Right.

Jenn Kamp [01:40:16] You know, and you. It's hard to fault them.

Holly Laurent [01:40:18] Right.

Jenn Kamp [01:40:20] And. But.

Holly Laurent [01:40:21] Right.

Jenn Kamp [01:40:22] You know, it's.

Holly Laurent [01:40:22] It's all those evangelicals who voted for Trump because. Because they gotta save those unborn babies and we might not have a Democracy pretty soon, but like, we gotta save those unborn babies. And I mean. And again, like, it is, man, it's really thick and tricky and complex and hard and it's so. I tend to react very strongly. Like, even we're talking about in adolescence, I just reacted to being like, then I'm doing it. Here I go, sliding down the hill.

John Dehlin [01:40:58] And so, so you mean you became, you like, became extra sexual because you, like, had blown it? Is that what you mean, what you just meant, or did I totally misunderstand what you were saying?

Holly Laurent [01:41:11] Oh, no, I think I don't know

John Dehlin [01:41:16] what I was just saying with that, because I'm curious. Once you knew you were a crumpled up piece of paper.

Holly Laurent [01:41:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:41:24] Once you knew you had disappointed your dad.

Holly Laurent [01:41:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:41:27] And disappointed. God.

Holly Laurent [01:41:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:41:29] Where. Where did you go from there?

Holly Laurent [01:41:32] It's really interesting, John, because I felt like I learned something from an episode you did with what's his name, the neon Trees. You, you and you two talked about a phrase that really popped out in my ear years. One of you said, learning to lie. And I was like, oh, whoa.

John Dehlin [01:41:58] So it happened.

Holly Laurent [01:41:59] Yeah. And I, I, until I heard you say it, I never would have. I've always kind of beat myself up because I became quite the bullshitter. And I.

John Dehlin [01:42:12] So you didn't, you didn't go to your dad and say, hey, dad, I blew it?

Holly Laurent [01:42:15] No.

John Dehlin [01:42:16] Oh, hey, dad. You know that you always checked in with me. Yeah, I, I did it, dad.

Holly Laurent [01:42:21] No.

John Dehlin [01:42:21] What, so what'd you do? Was you. The next time he checked in with

Holly Laurent [01:42:25] you, the same thing I always did. What you do, I was like, I just acted like everything was same old, same old. I mean, to this day, I don't think he knows. He probably knows, but he doesn't want to know, you know? Yeah, but like,

John Dehlin [01:42:42] Learning the lie.

Holly Laurent [01:42:43] Learning to lie is very interesting because I have always beat myself up because I, I, for a long time there, I became a, A big bullshitter. Like, I was just full of it, man. I, I was. And I thought that a lot of that came from just crushing low self esteem. I thought that who I was was so unworthy and so detestable and so incriminating and so fill in the blanket that I just, that's why when you said learning to lie, I was like, whoa. Because I think I just started giving a version that was acceptable. And the, the more I learned to lie, then you kind of, it becomes a performance of sorts. It's funny that I became an actual

John Dehlin [01:43:29] performer because there's the public self and the Private self.

Holly Laurent [01:43:32] Yeah, yeah. And I, and I watched my dad. I mean when my dad preaches like it's a, it's a. He would never say this and I wouldn't want to hurt his feelings, but like it is, he is a fantastic performer and it's a performance. And, and as a, as a kid sitting backstage even at their music shows or then the way it kind of started to happen with them is the Good News circle would do these exciting shows and everyone be whipped up into a frenzy from this like great music of, you know, all the sounds of that time and you know, rock and roll and everything was very compelling. I think it was moving people, it was exciting. And so these shows would get people to this, this state that was then very able to. You could come in and what my dad would do is at the end of concerts, he would start to give these little messages. He would, he would come out, he would talk, he would be funny, he would tell anecdotes. He would be self deprecating. He was really handsome, you know, and the girls are looking, looking at this hot guy who's been singing this whole time is like, yeah baby. And, and, and then he would, he would give the message of Jesus and he, and, and this Jesus dude who loves you and is going to powerfully change your life. And do you want to have a better life? Yes. And do you want to, do you want to finally be comforted from the pain that you're in? Yes. You know, do you want to all these things? Yes. And he would have altar calls and as a kid I would watch people come down to the altar her and get on their knees and have these emotional conversion experiences. And I would just watch it from the side stage. And I'm always seeing in front, I'm seeing in front of the curtain and behind the curtain, you know, and so

John Dehlin [01:45:10] you're saying like it has to be with everyone. The, the private life of what your dad and your mom and your family lived could never live up to that rapture of a Christian emotional love fest. Right. And so there's the, even with your dad, there's the public in the private.

Holly Laurent [01:45:27] Yeah. And we have a home where we like really don't talk about stuff. You don't mention it.

John Dehlin [01:45:33] Hard stuff, elephants in the room, all

Holly Laurent [01:45:35] that, all of it. We, you just don't talk about it. And, and, and it's funny, like when we were talking about even this stuff, Jen, with of you learning and changing as a mother, evolving in that role and in those relationships and stuff, it's Interesting. Like, I, I look at it with this. Of. Oh, man. How do I synthesize? I'm trying to say, like, three things at the exact same time. I, I wonder if. Oh, I, I'm not. I'm messing it up.

John Dehlin [01:46:17] Up.

Holly Laurent [01:46:19] What were we just.

John Dehlin [01:46:19] So you're, so you're basically. You were talking about you learned to lie because you knew you were sinning, but you wanted. But you didn't talk about hard things so you would make your dad and everyone else feel like everything is okay.

Holly Laurent [01:46:32] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [01:46:32] Yeah. Oh.

Holly Laurent [01:46:33] Oh. What we were just talking about of, like learning these things. And you, you see it in others, like, they believe what they're saying and they would tell us we're wrong about what we're saying. The effects of that thing are, you know, know. And what are the ways in which we do it? And all of that. And even you blowing my mind today with the OCD stuff and everything, like with the learning to lie thing in a home where you don't talk about it. And I, I recently was reading about codependency, which I'm sure you know more about than me, because I, I, I. But I was just reading about the idea of codependency, which I've heard my whole life, but I've never looked into it. And as I was. Was reading, like, what it is, I was like, this idea of behaving in a way that protects the other person from the consequences of their own actions. Like, when I heard that, I was like, wait, that's the way we do everything. That's the way everything works in my home. Of, like, that's why we don't talk about it. We don't. Because we're the instincts I have to protect the appearance and everything of my family, of this. My. That compulsion in me is so strong to protect them, even from themselves. And it. And I'm like, whoa, there is so much there. There's so much work to be done. I'm so tired.

John Dehlin [01:48:07] Yeah. And so you're. You're learning to lie, which is a problem.

Holly Laurent [01:48:13] And I.

John Dehlin [01:48:13] But you're doing it because in your family, you don't talk about the hard stuff, and you don't want to upset your parents and disappoint them or even worse, call their attention to the fact that they've. They've inserted you into a very toxic, unhealthy system.

Holly Laurent [01:48:31] Right. Right.

John Dehlin [01:48:31] And so the unhealthy codependence is you maintaining the silence.

Holly Laurent [01:48:36] Right.

John Dehlin [01:48:36] Learning to lie, bifurcating yourself into a double life.

Holly Laurent [01:48:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:48:41] And allowing Your parents to think they're helping you.

Holly Laurent [01:48:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:48:45] When really they're perpetuating deep harm to you.

Holly Laurent [01:48:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:48:50] While thinking they're doing you the best thing they could ever do for you

Holly Laurent [01:48:53] and intending only good.

John Dehlin [01:48:55] Yeah. That's all they want for you.

Holly Laurent [01:48:56] 100%.

John Dehlin [01:48:57] Yeah.

Holly Laurent [01:48:57] Yeah. This, this codependency thing is. That's kind of blowing my mind because it's like all these things like Stockholm syndrome and OCD and all of that and codependence and codependency. What you're saying, like, that's what you're saying.

John Dehlin [01:49:11] I'm just reflecting back what I'm hearing

Holly Laurent [01:49:13] from you is, is. It's, it's, it's like. It is the, it is. It's the molecules that make up these belief systems.

John Dehlin [01:49:21] Yeah. Yeah. And everybody thinks they're doing good. Good. You know, you think you're doing good protecting your parents.

Holly Laurent [01:49:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:49:28] By lying and hiding who you are.

Holly Laurent [01:49:30] Yeah. And. And oh, let me ask you this.

John Dehlin [01:49:36] So as you're sinning but bifurcating your life and living a double life, but feeling horrible inside, how does that progress in terms of your, your life? Like where, where do you go from there?

Holly Laurent [01:49:49] Well,

John Dehlin [01:49:51] I graduate from high school. Were you faithful through high school? Were you faithful in church? Did you start, you know, becoming less. Attending church less or like falling away to your parents's mind?

Holly Laurent [01:50:04] Yeah, all that.

John Dehlin [01:50:05] I quit the church. Like.

Holly Laurent [01:50:07] Yeah. I mean, I would go with them when I had to. I would get any possible chance to not. I would always. But I, I, Yeah, I, I would say the name of the game in high school was just that once I'd sort of broken the seal, once I had become a crumpled up piece of paper, then it was just like, well, I'm gonna have as good a time as I possibly can because hell's gonna suck. And so it was a lot of like, you know, partying and I, I still though the purity culture. I still never like had a one night stand, slept with a whole bunch of people. I would always just. It was always in long term committed relationships. I think that was a way I was also trying to be like, but I'm not that bad.

Jenn Kamp [01:50:48] Bad.

Holly Laurent [01:50:49] I might be boning. But I, but, but it's, you know, it's sort of like simulating the, the, you know, Christian ish. Yeah, the mon. The, the monogamous. I'm simulating this monogamous standard or guys. You know, I guess as I look back now. But yeah, I got to college and basically was like, oh, because, because I, Because I was always really creative and storytelling and funny. And so I was always kind of like the bad kid anyway. Always kind of like, popping off. And I was really into music, and I was really into just all things comedy. And in general, like, the essence of comedy is. Is riskiness, right? And. And so I was always this, like, little risky. The. The way you. You start. The thing that I learned as a, like, as a funny creature is like, how, like, what. How I worked the tool of comedy is like, you. You. You have to sort of like, play with ideas verbally with people to find their threshold of, like, ooh, you didn't like that, did you? You didn't like that right there. That was bad there. Okay, so your threshold is right there. And when you find that threshold of what people sort of, like, deem appropriate or whatever, then for me, comedy, for me at least, was that then when I. I would have to find your threshold so that then I could, like, dance on.

Jenn Kamp [01:52:09] On it.

Holly Laurent [01:52:09] I wouldn't, like, move back from the threshold. I'd be like, oh, here are your buttons. So now let's. So now let's play, like, comedy being a. A conversation between the audience and the. And the comic of, of, of. And comedy is really powerful because it's disarming. Like, if I can make you laugh, you sort of set your weapons and, like, armor and shield down for a second, and I can kind of like get in the little message to you. You. But I would have to find your, you know, thing. And so I was always pushing it with my parents, and, like, there was so much prohibition of our language as a kid. You know, you can't say cop. You have to say police officer. You can't say crap. You have to say crud. No curse words. Never. Oh, my God. You. You could kind of sometimes get away with an oh, my gosh. But that's not even that good. Just so much regulation of language that then as I started to express my intention, individuality, I was just like, I loved cursing. And also, it's this simple seeming.

Jenn Kamp [01:53:09] It's.

Holly Laurent [01:53:09] It's, at its essence is an arbitrary word. Every word we speak is a metaphor. So it's just. I say a word, it puts a picture in your mind, and. And I'm like, whoa, that's powerful. I can say this word and somebody will jump. Like, I can. I can control your body. And in a way, like, not control your body, but I can affect you physically. And which is also what comedy is doing. Like, I do something, and then all of a sudden, now I can see everyone's teeth and their bodies are moving. They go from still to, like, open and animated. Whoa.

John Dehlin [01:53:44] Or they're feeling great.

Holly Laurent [01:53:45] There's a power there. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:53:46] Or you're releasing endorphins or oxytocin or. Yeah, serotonin.

Holly Laurent [01:53:51] That makes me feel good. I'm making them feel good, and that makes me feel good.

John Dehlin [01:53:53] Yeah, it's a rush, right?

Holly Laurent [01:53:55] Yeah. And it's attention and all that stuff. So I was already kind of. Of. I was always just kind of the. The. I always was sort of like, what's the boundary? And then I would just push it, you know, that was just kind of the way I operated. And so when I had a little bit of autonomy that came with going away to college, I just started, like, pushing every boundary, you know. Then I was able to, you know, do more with my boyfriends or this or that or, you know, be. Be more naughty in the way that I would party or, you know, find pot or whatever. And, you know, so I got to college and just found all the, like. Like the kid. The bad kids who were sleeping through chapel and, you know, or the drama nerds or, you know, and. Yeah. So got to college. And the interesting thing that happened, though, is that I went to a Church of God school. My dad was then teaching at a Christian college. He was a Bible professor. And so I had the opportunity to go to a certain coalition of colleges, colleges tuition free. And so I just sort of picked one and ended up at. And I remember as we pulled onto campus, ended up where Anderson University in Anderson, Indiana. A little Church of God school. Probably like 3, 000 students or something. Liberal arts. It said a Church of God school on the sign as we were pulling up. And I was like, what's Church of God, dad? And he's like, they're all right. Because I would always check, you know, like, Wesleyan Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist, you know, all the. I would always. Catholics. I would always be like, how. How are the Methodist, dad? And he'd be like, well, you know, their doctrine gets a little loosey goosey, but they're all right, you know, like, whatever, you know. You know, oh, you know, for first assembly, you got. The Pentecostals are getting a little wild, you know, pushing it in some directions that, you know, it's not my cup of tea or whatever, but I remember asking, like, what's Church of God? And he was like, you know, they're all right. There is. There might be a little bit of danger for some, like, progressive. Like, there might be, might be, might have Some, like, twinges of, like, some liberalism in there, you know, they. Hopefully they'll be more on the conservative side. Okay. And then I ended up in a philosophy class where the professor, Dr. Reed, gave me a book and asked me to write him a paper on it. And it was called the Myth of Satan. And I was like, oh, what are you talking about? The myth of Satan? Satan is a very real, like, being. I mean, I don't like all the heaven and hell, God and angels, demons and Satan and all that stuff. I don't like it, but it's true. And I read this book and was like. Because then I started to be like, wait, I'm doing the math on everything. I remember, like, my aunt and uncle were Christian missionaries to. To a Hopi reservation in Arizona. And when I would go visit them and we would go into the Hopi, you know, villages and see traditional rain dances and stuff, I remember one of the first things I noticed when I walked into my aunt. Uncle's house is they had these kachina dolls on the mantel of their house. And I was like, what are those? Because they're kind of like. They have, like, mean faces and they. They look scary. And they were like, oh, kachina dolls. You know, the Hopi. The. The Hopi people tell their children that if they're naughty and they misbehave during the day, the Kachinas will come into the village at night and beat them.

Jenn Kamp [01:57:13] Them.

Holly Laurent [01:57:15] And I'm like, oh, so just like a. A way to regulate behavior with threat. And I'm like, oh, like, maybe the idea of Satan is a way to regulate behavior as a threat. And I just really. As I started to learn how to think critically in college, I just started being like, oh, man. I mean, maybe it wasn't that. Like, maybe it wasn't that I didn't. Didn't have the Jesus gear. I. E. I wasn't predestined. Maybe it's that I'm thinking also. You and I talked previously about our mutual friend Bart Campolo. One of my favorite things that he says is that his father, who's a big evangelical leader and deep believer of the Christian faith to this day, and Bart is out to his dad as not being a believer. And they have these compelling conversations, and I think they even have a documentary in a book, why I Left, why I Stayed. And Bart talks about how his dad asked him, like, you've been doing. You've been reading all these things, like Sam Harris or different writers, like, all of all these books. You're reading, like, what's. What's the one that made you not believe anymore? And Bart's like, the Bible?

Doubts, Biblical Scholarship, and Losing Faith

John Dehlin [01:58:28] Yeah.

Holly Laurent [01:58:30] I read every word of the Bible, and when I look at what's in there, knowing what's in there, I am not a believer of this. Of this thing. And I kind of went that way for me. And it's actually now a big part of, like, why I do the podcast I do. It's a satirical. It's an improvised satire of a fictional mega church. But what I'm doing at its essence is I'm wanting to create a conversation with listeners about theological illiteracy and about this. This community and tradition that I come from is, for the most part, in my opinion, overwrought and overrun with people with believers who have built their entire idea of reality on a book that they do not know what is in that book. They know a few things. They know some things. They attribute a lot of the things that the church or culture has told them is in there. They think that are in there. And a lot of times I'll be like, show me that in the Bible. It's not there. Yes, it is. And they could pass a lie detector test that it is, you know, like, heaven.

John Dehlin [01:59:40] I think you mentioned earlier the idea of heaven.

Holly Laurent [01:59:42] Yeah. And. And when I was in college, I. As I started to be like, wait a second.

John Dehlin [01:59:48] There's no. There's no. Is there a. Is there a Satan in the Bible? Like, is that another. I don't mean to stop where you're going. I just.

Holly Laurent [01:59:55] There. There is in. In the book of Job, Job, Satan and God are sitting around having a conversation, and God's like, you seen how much this guy Job loves me? And Satan's like, yeah. And you know, and then, you know what happens?

John Dehlin [02:00:11] He's like, doesn't Satan tempt Jesus when Jesus is fasting for. Yeah, you know.

Holly Laurent [02:00:16] Yeah, so.

John Dehlin [02:00:18] Okay, so that wasn't one of the things not in there. Keep. You were saying there are things that Christians believe are in the Bible that aren't in the Bible. Bible.

Holly Laurent [02:00:23] Right, right, right, right. And. And a lot. I mean, like, even homosexuality, the word homosexuality was put into in, like, the 60s or something. Like, very recently, it was. What's the word? Ketamite, The. The. The Greek practice of. Of men having sex with young boys. That was like. That was the word in the original text of. Of the Bible, and it got turned into homosexuality. So even a lot of the cultural and Christian, you know, homophobia, which they point to the Bible as, like, you Know, the whole love the sinner, hate the sin thing isn't even in the Bible. And that's one of the things that happened for me in college is that I, I started taking Koine Greek so that I could interpret the New Testament myself, because I was like, if this is the truth, I, I have to understand it for myself. And so the more I started to think critically and, and started taking classes like philosophy and stuff and learning how to think and, and, and coming into a conversation with my own ideas of reality and consciousness and all of this stuff and what does it all mean? And the, the more I, I almost obsessively started studying the Bible. And so I became a Bible and world religions major so I could study all the major world religions, even if it was just like a cursory, and then really dive into mine. And so I learned Koine Greek so I can interpret the New Testament. I, I took every single Bible and world religion class that was offered in my college. And when I ran classes, they let me start taking classes at the seminary. And so while I was an undergrad, I was taking graduate level courses in the Bible and I was taking literature and history of the Old Testament, all of these different things with professors who could read and speak Hebrew and starting to understand the original text of the Old Testament. And, and even.

John Dehlin [02:02:33] Did you learn about biblical criticism and historical criticism, that sort of thing?

Holly Laurent [02:02:37] Absolutely. Took all the exegetical exegesis classes, all of that. Took all of them. And, and dove in so hard to, to be like, if this is it, I, I have to be able to, like, Christians love to, you know, talk about C.S. lewis and how C.S. lewis was such an incredible thinker and it's not intellectual suicide and there isn't an intellect to the, to all of this and everything. I was like, okay, say let's go then. And so he even went to England to study like CS Lewis stuff. Now I'm in the, now I'm taking these seminary classes and I'm learning in literature and history of the Old Testament. Now I'm interpreting the New Testament for myself and I'm learning the context and the original language of the Old Testament and I'm learning like, oh wait, there's a, there's a, a pagan creation story that way predates the Bible that is also like, oh, wait, so this is a borrowed story from a pagan, Pagan religion. Oh, wait, Satanic. Yeah, all that. The flood. Oh, wait, Satanic. Satanic groups speak in tongues. I thought tongues was coming from the Holly Spirit. Wait, like other forms of Like Islam and whatever. There are the. These sects and, and, and out and out, like, cropping, like parts of all the different world religions where they're speaking in tongues. Tongues. Wait, speaking in tongues is the Holly Spirit of our Trinity speaking a prayer language through us? So, wait, how are those other religions doing it? I was under the impression that they were. Those were all lies. They're all wrong. They're all misguided, you know. Wait, so maybe is it is speaking in tongues not a thing from the outside in, but something from the inside out where anybody can tap into it and start, you know, going bananas? Wait a second. So all these things, you know, and so I was like, whoa, like, I'm almost becoming a danger to myself. And now I feel like. But, but it, but it became empowering. And even though what it did was collapse my Jenga of beliefs, now at the very least, I can go into conversations with people potentially who still believe. And I can come from a point of literacy of, like, I do know what's in your book. I can read it in its original language, at least the New Testament. And, and the fascinating thing about Koine Greek that the New Testament was written in is that it's an inflective language that's only understood through the way that it is spoken. So you, you understand, like, we understand meaning in a romantic language. We understand meaning because of the sentence structure I'm speaking with, like a subject, an object, a verb. You know, you're. You're understanding because of. Of the sentence structure of how I'm talking. But in Koine Greek, you would understand based on the way they were saying it out loud. So sometimes, like, it would. For instance, it would. You could have one word that means 10 different things, and it depends on how you say the word to get the meaning. So when you go and interpret Koine Greek, you might. The only example, really, I can think of is that if you took the word, if you took the letters. Oh, there's also, like, not spaces and stuff. So you're. You're deciding, like, where the word begins and ends based on the context of, like, what you're interpreting. Does this make sense? So if I take the. If you saw the letters G O, D, I, S, N O, W, H, E, R, E, what would you read?

John Dehlin [02:06:30] God is nowhere.

Holly Laurent [02:06:31] Okay, but what if it says God is now here? Right?

John Dehlin [02:06:37] Yeah.

Holly Laurent [02:06:38] So that's exactly what's happening when you are interpreting the original language of Koine Greek is that you're making a whole bunch of decisions. Is this God is nowhere or is this God is now here? Because those are diametrically opposed ideas. And so you kind of put it in context to the rest of what's around it, and you make a decision and you choose. So when you're interpreting the Bible and when the people and, you know, know King James or whatever are. They're making a bunch of choices there.

John Dehlin [02:07:08] Yeah. And what about, like, I'm thinking about when I was. Like, Mormons are raised to believe that the Book of Mormon is perfect, but that the Bible got screwed up over time. And so, yes, Mormons still believe Bible is a fundamental part of their religious canon, but we believe that the Catholics and the Protestants corrupted it. And so you can't really fully trust it, but you can fully trust the Book of Mormon because it came through Joseph Smith, God to Joseph Smith to the Book of Mormon, and it talks a lot about Jesus. So you grow up with the permission to. Not fully. To. To love the Bible, but not to fully trust or respect it. That's how you grow up as a Mormon. So when I'm reading the Bible, I'm feeling encouraged in high school to, like, find problems with it. And so I'm noticing that the sign above Jesus is heavy head in all four of the Gospels when he's crucified. Says something different each time. Like, well, that's. Yeah, that's what. That's what we're talking about. Like, can't they get it right?

Holly Laurent [02:08:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:08:07] What is said in the sign above Jesus head? Or like, Judas is dying and in one place he hangs himself, but in another, he's running in a field and he falls and he's. And he. His bowels gush out like, See, they can't even get. Can't even get it right how Judas died. And like, each resurrection of Jesus, like, different people are there when he's resurrected. And like. So I'm. This is all kind of Bart Ehrman stuff. Yeah, but I didn't know who Bart Ehrman was, but I was noticing these things in high school. What about noticing flaws or inconsistencies in the Bible while you're in college or just freaking genocidal God that's like killing men, women, children, and animals. Were you having this sort of awakening in college or not? Was that not part of it for sure?

Holly Laurent [02:08:52] All of that? And what's so funny to me, John, is that all of those things that you say, like, Mormons think that everybody else is, like, close but no cigar. They sort of bastardize it or. That's exactly what we were taught about Mormons, of course. Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:09:06] What did you think of Mormons?

Holly Laurent [02:09:08] It was that Mormons were. It was weird. It was sort of, like, made up. It's like, newer. It's like some guy came to America and, like, he took, like, biblical ideas and sort of bastardized them. And, you know, it's like, oh, they're really weird. I remember because. Because they'll be like, oh, Catholics are kind of. I was taught that Catholics are, like, sort of okay, but they have, like. They worship Mary, and that's not good. And it's like, again, it's like they're. They're getting it wrong. But there were certain ones where they're like, oh, they're being a little too liberal or they're getting it wrong. But I was taught that Mormons are just like, that's. That. That shit's just bananas. And so then when.

John Dehlin [02:09:48] No. Were we a cult to you? Yeah, yeah, we were.

Holly Laurent [02:09:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:09:52] Pro.

Holly Laurent [02:09:53] I don't know if we'd say cult, but. Ish. And. And I remember kind of getting pissed when Romney. When all of a sudden they were like, well, if it's between a black liberal and Romney, I guess we got to go mor. And. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:10:06] And black liberal and Mormon.

Holly Laurent [02:10:08] Right. And I remember being like, wait, I thought you said. And they're like, he's a family man. He's a good guy. He's all this stuff. I'm like, yeah, but okay, you're. You're the one who said, like, cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs, you know? And like, now it's just like, h. I guess we're always constantly, like, shifting and going with the lesser of two evils.

Jenn Kamp [02:10:29] I don't know.

Faith Deconstruction in College

John Dehlin [02:10:30] So in college, did you lose your faith in the Bible and in Christianity in college?

Holly Laurent [02:10:36] Yeah. Yeah, but I'd say it took me like, a full year. I went to graduate school, school at Columbia College, much later, maybe 10 years later, and still even there started, like, studying a lot of, like, paganism and a bunch of different things. Still just kind of scratching at that. At that thing and. And uncovering rocks in my brain that still had weird dogma under. Under them. But, I mean, I would say for me to fully, like, squeeze all that out of my sponge was a decade

John Dehlin [02:11:06] of, you know, deconstruction.

Holly Laurent [02:11:08] My 20s. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:11:09] So between undergraduate in grad school, you're away from the home. Are you still attending churches? Are you still praying? Are you still reading your scriptures? Are you thinking yourself as liberated or thinking of yourself as, like, the prodigal daughter wayward? How are you thinking of yourself during those 10 years? And what type of life are you living? A life that your parents would be proud of? Are you living a life that your parents would be embarrassed by? And are you lying to them about it that whole time? Time.

Holly Laurent [02:11:42] So it's funny, as you were asking that, I was like, no, I. I stopped going to church. I was thinking about it while you were asking. I was like, I think I tried to sometimes go to church when I was in college to still, like, be a good kid, but for the most part, no, I stopped going. I was like, it's just never been my bag. I just don't like it. People like it. They get stuff from it. I'm always just like, oh, this place is a drag. I just always. So I looked for every opportunity to not. And I probably would have got out of college and never gone to church again. Actually, I did never go to church again after college. But here's the real bonkers part is that I got out of college and started working at a mega church, Like a big evangelical, you know, Bill Hybels, Willow Creek outside Chicago. Big. Like, this was. You know, he's the. He's the personal spiritual advisor to Bill Clinton. It's. This is big time, baby. It's like. And it was just because I. Basically, when I graduated from college, I didn't have any skills, and all I'd done was study the Bible and world religions. And I also. I was a double major, and I also was an acting major, drama. And so already I had these two. It's like the Christ in comedy thing was already this. The. These, like, two tracks where I have a foot in each world. And I. I got out of college, came back home, and I was like, I don't know what to do. Like, serve tables. Where do I work? What do I do? I have no skills. And my mom was like, oh, I just was at Willow Creek, and I saw in the bulletin Willow Creek Community Church, this huge mega church outside Chicago. And my mom was like, I saw in the bulletin that they're looking to hire a. A drama director for the children's ministry, like, doing these. Like, there's a. There's a children's ministry where they use drama. There's, like, music and drama and all these different things for the children's programming at this church that was, you know, like a rock and roll church with, like, drum kits and strobe lights and stuff. Fog in the room on a Sunday morning.

John Dehlin [02:13:50] Literally.

Holly Laurent [02:13:51] Yeah. While everyone put their hands up in

John Dehlin [02:13:52] the air, your church had a fog Machine. Machine.

Holly Laurent [02:13:54] Oh, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:13:55] A rock band.

Holly Laurent [02:13:56] So that it would look like a, so it would look like a U2 concert, you know.

John Dehlin [02:14:00] Wow.

Holly Laurent [02:14:00] And, and, and the praise and worship is like Coldplay. It's like, whoa. I'm like, at a Coldplay show on a Sunday morning.

John Dehlin [02:14:07] It sounds like your parents would be proud.

Holly Laurent [02:14:09] That's like they were so proud of me. And that really was, that hurts, man. Because they, they were so proud because my dad then at the time was, was a teaching pastor at a mega church. And I was at, I was working at the mega church and I'm like, and I'm moving. So. So I went and got that job and I started working at that church just because I was like, that's a paycheck. And all I know is church culture. I was raised in a Christian school, Christian college, going to church. Both my grandpas were preachers. My dad's a preacher. It's like, all I know, I'm like, I'll do this. So I started working this mega church church and, and, and for the whole time I worked there for like a decade. I was fully deconstructing to the point where, and I'm simultaneously moving up higher in, to where finally I got to the point where I was moving up in my, my role. Where then I'm finally like sitting at a table with Bill Hybels and like church leadership, like programming like the weekend services, which that's the big deal because like the weekend services have to be like the driver, the generator. That's what's going to pull people in when they walk in and, and are like, this is awesome. There's these incredible compelling like dramas that are like Oscar winning moments. And there's this, the music's like a cold blaze show and you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And now I'm sitting at the table with the leaders of this church, the executive pastors, all the leaders. And I'm sitting at the table like on the creative programming team. And I'm like fully now admitting to myself, sitting there silently in my mind while they're droning on in a conversation about how to bring more people to Christ. And I'm like, I don't believe any of this. I don't. I think I used to think it was true and I just wished it wasn't true because I didn't like it. Now I don't think it's true. It's definitely not true. I remember in the big green room where we would have our meetings behind the main auditorium, like I Mean, this was, like, plush. It was like. Like. Like the rug in the green room backstage, like, was enough that. I remember one time, like, hearing that the rug, like, cost enough to, like, buy a house. It was pretty. It was pretty nice. And I remember there was a Time magazine in. In the church, and it was talking about Mother Teresa's. Did you ever hear about Mother Teresa had a crisis of faith?

John Dehlin [02:16:37] Absolutely. By the way, C.S. lewis did, too, but we'll talk about that later.

Holly Laurent [02:16:42] Really?

John Dehlin [02:16:42] They don't tell you that.

Holly Laurent [02:16:44] What. But he came back to it a little bit, I guess. I guess Billy Graham did, too. I just. I'm. I'm right now reading the book Jesus and John Wayne. Fascinating about, like, how white evangelical Christian culture has continued to shape Jesus into. For a while, Jesus was an incredible businessman, man. For a while, Jesus was a powerful athlete. And then Jesus was like, John Wayne. It's, like, masculinity, authoritarian, like, fighting for justice, like, on the Western front. Fascinating. But there's a lot in there about, like, Billy Graham. And Billy Graham evidently had a crisis of faith and then just decided, no, I'm just going with it. And. And then, you know, like, had an incredible effect on. On, like, the culture we're now enjoying. But. But when was. What was C.S. lewis's.

John Dehlin [02:17:39] Oh, well, I don't want to derail your story. I. I just read an article on this. This just this past week. But I guess as he got older and older, he started having some public criticisms of his apologetics. And then he falls in love with this woman, and then she dies of terrible cancer.

Holly Laurent [02:17:55] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:17:55] And he starts to just, like, question everything.

Holly Laurent [02:17:58] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:17:58] But they don't talk about the.

Holly Laurent [02:17:59] That as much. Yeah. I read his book. Surprised by Joy about having lost his wife. Yeah. Interesting. Because I was like. I liked C.S. lewis so much. I was like. I was looking for. It's sort of like Bart Erdman or whatever. Like, I'm looking. I was looking for. There's got to be a good. A good teacher. There's got to be someone who doesn't feel like they're full of. There's got to be. You know, and I thought. I thought C.S. lewis would be that for me for a while. But I remember looking at this Time magazine about Mother Teresa's crisis of faith, and I'm sitting there being like, oh, my gosh, I work at a church. I don't believe in any of this. I don't believe it's true. I don't even think it's real. What am I doing here? And then. And then I was like. I felt closeted. It was like, like, now I'm, like, hiding. Talk about, like, back to the thing we were saying of, like, bifurcating or, like, two lives or learning to lie or whatever. Now I'm like this closeted non believer working at a church. And I was like, this isn't gonna work. I have to leave. But the funny thing is, is I was working at that as a day job to support my comedy habitat. And I Night. And so I had spent that whole time I was working at the church. I. I was. I would race. I would race back into the city from the mega church. I would race back into the city, change my clothes, take shower, go down to the theater, and I would do. And I would do improv every single night for 10 years. And so I was building up this, like, comedy life. And I mean, I was two totally different people. I was this person working at a mega church and who was just like a. A creative consultant, like, helping them be the best. And then I was this, like, absolute, like, non believer, like, comic, just devoting my life to improv and having a great time doing it. But I then. Did you ever watch the West Wing Wing?

John Dehlin [02:20:11] Love the West Wing.

Holly Laurent [02:20:13] Remember when they hired Ainsley Hayes, the Republican strategist, to come work for the Democratic presidency? Do you remember that? She was that beautiful blonde actress. And because they were like, we need.

John Dehlin [02:20:30] Is that Kristen Chenoweth?

Holly Laurent [02:20:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:20:32] Was it from Wicked?

Holly Laurent [02:20:34] Oh, it must have been. I never made that connection.

John Dehlin [02:20:37] Like Glinda from.

Holly Laurent [02:20:38] Yeah,

John Dehlin [02:20:41] I'm not sure if that's right,

Holly Laurent [02:20:42] but I was obsessed with West Wing, and I was like, oh, remember when the. The. This Democratic presidency hired a prominent Republican thinker to help them? You know? And so I remember sitting there and that was somehow how I justified it for a while, where I was like, oh, I'm like the Ainsley Hayes of. Of this. Of Willow Creek, of this. This big, huge, mega church. I am the other side. I'm the person they're trying to reach. So maybe it's, like, really smart and helpful for them to have a non believer at the table when they're trying to reach non believers. That's their whole point. And they've got one. They don't know it, but they've got one sitting at the table. I'm like, can you imagine how much I could help them speak to people like me? And then there came a day where I was like, wait, I don't want to help them, because I don't think this is Helping people. I believe this is hurting people. I'm watching this turn females against themselves and have shame in this authoritarian, like, patriarchal culture and this, like, white evangelicalism and the. And. And no voices of color at this table and all, you know, and I started. Started. And then I started becoming more and more outspoken and, like, started pushing on all them, and I was kind of getting myself in trouble because I was really pushing on the LGBTQIA plus stuff of, like, homophobia. Yeah. I'm like, this is. You're on the wrong side of this one man. And Bill Hybels was a pastor who caught a lot of. From. He started marrying interracial couples, and that was a whole thing.

Jenn Kamp [02:22:24] Thing.

Holly Laurent [02:22:24] And I'm like, you.

John Dehlin [02:22:28] You've done good, though, right?

Holly Laurent [02:22:29] You've done this before, right? You said, no, we're not gonna do that. Racist. Like, so don't do this. Homophobic, you know?

John Dehlin [02:22:39] Yeah.

Holly Laurent [02:22:39] And I started. Really?

John Dehlin [02:22:41] What'd they say?

Holly Laurent [02:22:42] It wasn't going well. I mean, there wasn't a lot of. I had to very tactically know who I could, like, voice those things to and when. And so I. I kind of started really pushing on it. And. And then there reached the day. And then the nice thing was, in that time, I happened to. I. I fell in love with this other improviser, comedy guy named Greg, and we got married. And once we were married, was he a Christian? No, but raised in the church. But he didn't get hammered with the evangelical stuff like I did. He was Presbyterian, and he kind of grew up being like, this is cool. But he had a big time purity culture, too. And. And. And. And he kind of similarly. He studied. He. He actually was gonna go. He studied religion in. William and Mary and then was gonna go to seminary because he was. His grandpa was a pastor. He was like, you know, maybe I'll do this. And then he was like, oh, wait. In college, he realized he's like, I don't think I believe any of this. And so he had been in an improv group in college, and so he moved to Chicago to do improv, and I met him doing comedy at night, and so we were sort of similar. I. I think that made me feel kind of safe that he kind of knew the language and the culture and the world and the tradition that I came from. But he was similar to me now. And so. And now it's like, it is such a big part of our relationship is us constantly having these conversations of, like, deconstruction, you know, like, he's the One who got me this book, Jesus and John Wayne. And I'm like, whoa, this author is speaking to the. She's. She's singing a tune that is all the notes I've been playing this whole time, but she's putting them together into a perfect song. And Greg is really great about, like, constantly engaging with me and stimulating. This is my favorite thing to do. What we're doing right now is, like, talking about. About this and making discoveries and even like, Jen, you being like, oh, wait, I did that. Or you being like, oh, that's OC and like, the constant. I love that, like, growth and the insights and everything. And so when we got married, Greg went and took this really terrible day job that he hated to be able to support us. It's gonna make me emotional to. And he was like, holly, I got us for a while. Like, you can leave. Like, it's hurting you to. To feel closeted, you know, working for a church that you don't believe and that you're starting to think that maybe you're part and parcel of a hurtful commerce and not a helpful commerce. So he. He made it possible for me to. To walk away from it. And that was so good for me. And such a beginning, the beginning of a journey of being able to start, like, healing from it. And I think my podcast, Mega, with. I didn't even mean for this. This is a side effect of it, but I think satirizing it and starting to laugh about it has also been really healing. And it's also been like, when we. When I created Mega, I. I was trying to reach comedy nerds. It was a podcast for comedy nerds. And then that was the target. And then what I ended up hitting was these two, like, other camps of, like, cool Christians and exvangelicals. And I'm like, are you cool Christians who like this. Are you listening to what we're saying or. Or is there a new kind of cool Christian who's able to laugh at themselves and not take it too seriously and not white knuckle it and be like, no, you can't. You know, that might be a. A good start or something? And then. But I didn't even. I'd never even heard the word exvangelical before. Before my podcast, like, I started, the guy who coined the phrase has the podcast exvangelical. And he contacted me, was like, you got to come on, and there's a big ex. Angelical community and everything. And I was like, what I'd never heard until a friend of mine Having moved to la, a friend of mine in LA was like, oh, I'm on the waiting list for this therapist in Pasadena who specializes in religious trauma. And I remember in the moment hearing those words, religious trauma put together, I was like, wait, that's a thing? Oh, of course that's a thing. Oh my gosh.

Marriage, Career Choices, and Leaving Religion

John Dehlin [02:27:02] And that'll be, I think that'll be maybe a big part of our focus in part two.

Holly Laurent [02:27:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:27:07] Is, is healing from that.

Holly Laurent [02:27:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:27:09] Let me just ask you, so your, your husband volunteers to do whatever he can so that you can quit that job.

Holly Laurent [02:27:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:27:18] What year was that about? Do you remember? You would have quit the megachurch?

Holly Laurent [02:27:24] I. It was probably around like 2009. 10.

John Dehlin [02:27:30] Okay, okay. So about 12 years ago. Let me just ask you this question. So you go through all this. It's weird for me to apply this to another faith tradition. But like, I'm always surprised. Like, if you think of, in an ideal world, if you think about, like, what does it mean, mean to have parents? What does it mean to have a spouse? What it means is you can tell them anything. Like the hardest, worst things, the ideal parent, the ideal spouse, you can tell them anything. Yeah, but I'm thinking about the fact that you, like, were raised in this church. You, you fell off the path, but you created this bifurcated self and you were presenting to your parents and your community something that really wasn't who you were. But you started to live that double life and sin, but still make them think that you. And you didn't go to your dad, he's virginity checking you, and that's all you're taught to care about. Then you actually lose your virginity. The last thing you want to do is tell him.

Holly Laurent [02:28:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:28:29] So like, he's got no clue. You know, you graduate from high school, you go to a religious college, the whole time you're deconstructing your faith while your parents are thinking, wow, she's at a good Christian school, you know what I mean? And then you leave and you start a megachurch. So your parents are like, oh, great, she's working for a megachurch.

Holly Laurent [02:28:47] Couldn't be better.

John Dehlin [02:28:47] Where you're deconstructed even more.

Holly Laurent [02:28:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:28:50] By the end, you've got all these 10, 10 years plus college, 14 years of like moving farther, farther away from what your parents raised you to be and deconstructing and deconstructing and moving away theologically from all the things your parents taught you to believe. And you get to the end of that. That you would think that be like, mom, and dad, like, let me just tell you what's happened. And you raised me this way, but this is how it's worked out for me. And you would think you'd be able to go to your parents, forget the religious stuff. You would want to be able to go to your parents and say, mom and dad, I've learned these new things. Let me tell you what I learned about the Bible. Let me tell you what I learned about. Let me tell you the problems I'm seeing with Christianity and why it's hard for me. And I'm really struggling, struggling. But mom and dad, you can help me, right? You would think that parenting would be. You could be your most authentic, vulnerable self, and your parents would unconditionally love you and you would tell them everything and then they would help you and then you would grow together, maybe you'd even teach them some things, and then they would change and grow, and then together you would become more advanced, enlightened citizens. But I get the sense that that's not.

Holly Laurent [02:29:55] Well, I think what I've discovered today is that it's actually this codependency because I am actually the reason I'm not going and being like, hey, all these things and it, and, and, and I feel like I'm becoming a more whole, more wholehearted.

John Dehlin [02:30:10] Healthier.

Holly Laurent [02:30:10] Healthier.

John Dehlin [02:30:11] More enlightened.

Holly Laurent [02:30:12] Yes. More enlightened, more authentically me. More able to feel the freedom of actual unconditional love. Like with Greg, I, I can't. I have that. I can tell him. I can tell him the really, really, like the friends, frightened, frail, angry, worst possible things, the darkest, most sinister, you know, shameful. And, and, but like with my parents, I'm actually, I think the reason I'm not doing that is because it would crush them so totally and completely. And they are such literalists about the Bible that it would not only anger them to no end to hear me say such heretical things about the, like, the thing that is, like, driven and given their entire lives purpose and meaning and that they've dedicated everything to, but also, so they would be so crushed to know that instead of being in eternity forever in the beautiful, perfect presence of God, together with their daughter, that they do love that, that she is going to be in this horrible place of torment and suffering forever while they're having the time of their life, this, this, this person they gave life to, who they deeply love, is in teeth, gnashing pain. And, and I, I guess I'm just protecting them from that, that pain also. I'm, I'm still. This is a great grief of my life, but I am still living up to the standard that has. Was set in my home, in those relationships of my. My family. I'm still living up to the standard that was set of. We don't talk about it, we don't want it, we don't want to hear. I. I remember one time I tried. I. I told. I don't know why, but I told my mom that I had smoked pot. This might have been when I was like, home from college or something. I was always like, sometimes when I start going and I'm, like, trying to be funny and stuff, I like, pushing something too far. And I pushed it too far. And I was honest with her about that. And she tackled me flat on my back, knees on my shoulders, on top of me. It was like, like, tell me that that's not true. And I was like, it is true, though. I've actually done that. And she was like, tell me it's not true. And I was like, oh, it's not true. And so I used to, like, get into kind of. Of like, sort of arguments with my dad when I was really, you know, like, reading the Myth of Satan book and stuff. And I was like, dad, let's talk about hell, because that's some shit I don't like, you know. And we would kind of get into it and it would go nowhere and it would be terrible, and we would walk away from it both frustrated and hurt, you know, And I just stopped. I was just like, you know, and. And we just didn't talk about anything. But, like, they, you know, they knew. I. I mean, like, I was living with Greg before we got married. And honestly, it was just a, like, practicality thing because, like, his lease was up or something, and we were moving. He was going to move into my apartment, and then his lease was up so he could get a place for three months, but pay. But whatever. And we're like, we'll just say we're getting married in three months. Like, just move in now. We'd been sleeping together the whole time, like, but. And so. And like, my parents were. I was like, are you cursing my marriage? My mom was like, God's not going to bless your marriage now. And I was like, well, I'm just. I'll give it a shot. I'll take my chances. And. And then, man, my dad, like, really, My dad married us. My dad was the officiant, and my dad, like, really embarrassed us in our wedding. Like, during the ceremony, he. He started talking about, like. Like, Christian sex and like the way God wants sex to be. And like my wedding ceremony became about sex. And everyone in the audience is like, I mean, my new in laws and Craig's grandparents and stuff are sitting there and they're like, what? And like, it was the most awkward. It was the most awkward. Like, and all my comedy friends are there and they're like, this is. They're all sitting up in their seats. They're like, this is actually a real life Christopher Guest movie.

John Dehlin [02:34:39] This is material.

Holly Laurent [02:34:40] They're like, this is material. They're like, this is actually the funniest thing I've ever seen in my life. And I was so humiliated in front of everyone I love. I was so humiliated. I remember, like, I remember Greg's hands, Greg's hand, his nails were digging into the palm of my hand, digging in so hard that I like looked at him and I was like, you're hurting my hand. And I looked up at his face and I could tell that it was like he, like all the doors were shutting. He was like going a million miles away. And I was like, I am too. Like, I am dissociating from this moment. I spent the entire reception just like, everyone was coming up. Holly, so beautiful. And me being like, I didn't know that was gonna happen. I'm really sorry. I'm embarrassed by this. Like, I, I was like traumatized. I cried for most of my honeymoon. I was like. And I, Because I trusted my dad. I'd seen him do so many weddings and he was always so good. And I was like, this is going to be the like, secret golden ticket part of the wedding is when everyone sees how good my dad is. And like, and then he really deeply humiliated me. And it was so hard. And like, I was like, the first year of our marriage, I was like,

John Dehlin [02:35:52] what do you think that was about for him?

Holly Laurent [02:35:54] Ambassador Case? He, I.

John Dehlin [02:35:56] What was he doing in his mind? What was he thinking and feeling?

Holly Laurent [02:35:59] I mean, isn't. Isn't that the question? I, we, when we came back from our honeymoon, it was so bad. Like, Greg and I went to my parents house and we're like, we have to talk about this. Which is also like, I'm breaking the number one rule. But maybe it was the, Maybe it was like Greg was able to do it. Greg was like, I would like, you know, an explanation for like, what happened there, because that was my one wedding and that was. And, and my dad basically, he like really did not want to talk about it. And I could tell we weren't going to get much from him. It wasn't going to be a like, let's talk or turn. Yeah. It was like, no. And he, basically what he told us is that he was like, I was on a lot of cold medicine and I had been reading this Christian book that I found really exciting and compelling. And it had this chapter about like great Christian purity culture, like Christian sex and marriage. And I, I just was cribbing a lot of it from that chapter that I thought would be. Because I was like, were you trying, Were you doing that? Because like, I had all my like comedy friends there that were all like, you know, bad sinners who were all out like, you know, doing drugs and sleeping with each other and stuff. And I was like, maybe. Is he trying to teach them a lesson? Is he, Is it because I, he knows I didn't stay sexually pure. Was it punitive? Was it. I don't think it would be punitive. I mean, sometimes John, I'm like, I don't know.

John Dehlin [02:37:36] Mark Driscoll.

Holly Laurent [02:37:38] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:37:39] Was it, Was he reading Mark Driscoll. Driscoll at the time?

Holly Laurent [02:37:42] I could ask him.

John Dehlin [02:37:44] Well, here's what I was gonna, here's what I was gonna say. And I'm so sorry that happened.

Holly Laurent [02:37:47] Oh, thanks, man.

John Dehlin [02:37:48] I'm so sorry.

Holly Laurent [02:37:49] And yeah, that was rough.

John Dehlin [02:37:51] What I've thought about in Mormonism and in high demand religions and I'm, I'm, I'm feeling like it really applies here. But you can tell me, like. Okay. We talked earlier about like how a Christian pastor or a Christian dad is gonna teach purity culture. Thinking they're doing good.

Holly Laurent [02:38:08] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:38:08] When in oftentimes they're actually doing harm.

Holly Laurent [02:38:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:38:12] But they think they're doing good.

Holly Laurent [02:38:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:38:14] Right. Like your parents were trying to do good.

Holly Laurent [02:38:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:38:20] And they were raised as Christians to think of parenting in a certain way, which is you purity check and you virginity check and you police your kids morality and you, and you be kind and loving, but then you never talk about anything. And like your mom said she didn't want to know. Know.

Holly Laurent [02:38:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:38:37] Like, obviously there's a lot of head turning going on.

Holly Laurent [02:38:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:38:40] In Christian families.

Holly Laurent [02:38:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:38:41] Because what kids can ever live up to those standards? And so the parents kind of want to live in this, this sort of like, of reality void where they don't really want to know what their kids are doing.

Holly Laurent [02:38:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:38:54] And so you're going into college and adulthood doing stuff that would be horrific for your parents, but they don't, they don't want to think about it.

Holly Laurent [02:39:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:39:02] But, but the Presiding rule is don't be vulnerable, don't be honest, hide, lie. Your mom's even telling you.

Holly Laurent [02:39:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:39:09] To lie.

Holly Laurent [02:39:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:39:11] They want you to lie. They don't want to know.

Holly Laurent [02:39:13] Right, right.

John Dehlin [02:39:14] And what, and a lot of that interaction is about you trying to be honest and then getting that your mom tackling you, those horrible reactions.

Jenn Kamp [02:39:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:39:23] And the violent, emotionally violent and sometimes abusive reactions when you try and be vulnerable and honest or say you don't believe or you know, haven't followed certain this or that. That's all right. Out of the Mormon playbook as well.

Holly Laurent [02:39:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:39:36] And it, what it, what it, what it realized, what it kind of brings to my mind is this idea that it, it creates like there's this perception that the Mormon family is the ideal family.

Holly Laurent [02:39:49] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:39:50] Parents that love their kids and a family that's happy and on a surface level that's often true.

Holly Laurent [02:39:56] True. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:39:58] But what, what's actually going on below the surface is hiding and lying and double lives and conditional love and the worst form of parenting, which is this. Be good or, or I won't love you. I'll look down on you. And if you're doing bad, just lie. I want you to lie. Like, like that's the worst possible foundation for a parent child relationship and for a healthy family culture.

Holly Laurent [02:40:29] Right.

John Dehlin [02:40:30] It's horrible, it's abusive. And I always say the first sign of a cult is if you lie to your spouse or lie to your parents because you're afraid to tell them the truth. Because who should you be truthful to more in an ideal world than your own own parents? Especially when you're an adult. It's one thing if you're a kid messing up, but once you're like an adult and you're about to get married and you're trying to, you're, you're an adult now and you've been processing things. Who in the world should you be able to have a heart to heart with more than your own mom and dad?

Holly Laurent [02:41:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:41:09] And they're the ones you feel like you have to lie to and hide from and you're ashamed.

Holly Laurent [02:41:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:41:15] That feels, feels horrific. That feels violent and abusive and horrific. And I'm not. No shade on your parents. I'm sure if I met them, they're lovely.

Holly Laurent [02:41:25] Maybe you'd love them.

John Dehlin [02:41:26] And most Mormon families are lovely on the surface. But that, that framework, that system of hiding and lying and conditional love and judgment, it is at its core fundamentally abusive and emotionally and psychologically violent.

Holly Laurent [02:41:46] Yeah. And you're describing the God of The Bible of like.

Jenn Kamp [02:41:52] It.

Holly Laurent [02:41:53] It is the definition of conditional love. It is the, it is the definition of conditional love. Because if you don't devote yourself and behave. If you don't obey me and behave in the way that I have deemed appropriate, it. I'm going to kill you. You're.

John Dehlin [02:42:14] You're dead, either physically or spiritually.

Holly Laurent [02:42:16] Right, right, right, right. I mean, well, you know, hell, the very real hell. And, and it's funny because I almost feel like the stuff Jesus was actually talking about was like freedom and, and

John Dehlin [02:42:33] compassion and empathy and.

Holly Laurent [02:42:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:42:35] Integrity and, and, yeah.

Holly Laurent [02:42:37] And. And I do believe that the truth does set you free. And I, and I, I. I don't see a lot of those fruits of the spirit that I mentioned earlier falling off the church's tree. I don't. I mean, Jesus said it's love. And against. That there is no law. Like, don't let any law come over love. And, and now, like, Christians are actually voting for laws. Laws to like, take away the rights of human beings. I mean, look at what's happening in our country this week with, like, women. It's, it's. And, and, and women's health care and, but like, yeah, it's, it's. It's tough, man. And, and I, and I. And that brings me back to the gratitude that I have for the comedy community sort of swooping in and filling that. What to me felt like this screaming void of like, my ent. Everything I believed about the nature of reality was. Was God and Satan, heaven and hell, and, and getting people out of hell and getting them into heaven. And when that goes away, holy smokes. It's like now all of that stuff of like, belonging, worthiness, community, all the things that actually make you. We are social animals. We're social creatures. Most of our decisions are based on survival. Like, what do I have to do to survive? And a big one is that I need to be in community. You know, I need to know that, like, if I, If I fall and break my neck, like, someone is there to take me to the hospital. You know, we're just, we're all just animals trying to stay alive. And, and yeah, the. I really wonder if. I think so much of the idea that. That someone had to die to make you worthy of God's love is really an a sea. It's like a nut at the center of this thing. That is like, what you were saying earlier of, like, the shame has to keep driving you back to church. I think, I think there are good things, you know, a lot of the, like, sex positivity and, like, body. Even body positivity and stuff that is starting to come up in my lifetime. But of like, oh, wow. That's a way better way to think of things. Oh, wow. The. You know, it's like, ooh. I see it as very dangerous to the church because if. If.

John Dehlin [02:45:28] If we, like, if we love our bodies, if sex is a healthy, natural thing that you just get educated about,

Holly Laurent [02:45:36] then, you know, like, shame. It's. It's. That's. That's kryptonite to shame. And then maybe there's no more church. Or. Or maybe we. Well, this is for part two, but is a huge part of why I'm grateful to comedy. And so what happened was I'd been really developing my actual passion and vision for life. You know, at night was doing improv in Chicago, and it was a cool time. It was a cool era of. Of. Of comedy in Chicago.

John Dehlin [02:46:14] And we will focus on your comedy stuff for part two. Okay, so. So I don't. I'm not cutting you off. I just want to make sure.

Jenn Kamp [02:46:20] Great.

John Dehlin [02:46:21] So. But did you want to finish what you were. You're saying they were there for you?

Holly Laurent [02:46:27] Yeah. And. And it was kind of funny because these things don't always happen in life, like, really cool, like, leap and the net will appear type of things. But, man, it happened for me because. So here I was, my day job was at this mega church. I was feeling so conflicted about it. I was finally able to. Through such a lovely, loving gesture from Greg, I was finally able to walk out of there. And, man, did it feel good to leave. And. But I'd been working so hard. That whole time I had been working at the church, I'd been working so hard on comedy, and, you know, I mean, every single night for 10 years, I was playing. I was doing everything. I was writing sketches, shows. I was putting up shows. I was like. I was directing comedy. I was. I was. I took every single class at every single comedy house in the whole city. I was, you know, doing it all, doing it all, doing it all. And after 10 years of doing improv every single day for 10 years, I finally made it onto the bench, is what it's called at Second City. I made it to the Bench, where you're an understudy for the touring companies, and you have to go sit on the bench and, like, watch all the shows and know all the shows and be ready to go in if you need to go in. And as an understudy or whatever. So now I'm sitting on the bench. And Greg, my husband Greg at the time was actually on one of the national touring companies of. Of Second City. There's Red Co, Blue Co and Green Company. He was on the. He was on the blue coat and he. He was touring and. And I was on the bench and I, I finally. I got bumped up to a touring company and I started touring and it was making my day job, but it was not enough money to live off of. You still had to have a day job. And so I was getting in so much trouble at work because I just was like, this is my priority. This is what I want to do.

John Dehlin [02:48:13] Oh, at the megachurch.

Holly Laurent [02:48:15] And. And my direct supervisors were getting more and more pissed because they were like, they could just. They could feel that, like, I'd always been a problem child there because what they wanted was nothing short of your life. It wasn't just your job. You also were in a small group and you were. Attended the services and you were part of the community and you were, you know, all. You were volunteering and you were. It was like everything. And I was like, no, this is a job for me, man. And I, like, never was there for services. I ne. And. And that didn't play well. And it really was a problem for a really long time. And. And so I. I went in. So. So when I knew I was quitting, I went in and to have a conversation with my boss to put in my two weeks. Weeks, and my boss was sort of sitting there prepared to really, like, reprimand me and give me the old, like, you got to get in line and, you know, do. Do the whole deal like the rest of us. And I was like, actually, I'm quitting. And the day that I turned in my laptop and my keys to the HR department and like, signed my papers or whatever that I was like, you know, no longer employed there. I got in my car and I drove out of the parking lot and I was like, whoa, I have showed up here at this place for so many years and I am never coming back. This is a feeling, man. Like, I'm driving out of here for the last time and I'm never coming back. And, man, this might be like a. I mean, it just felt like a big life moment. And then all this fear raced in and I was filled with crushing anxiety. Where I was was like, oh, no, but what am I going to do? And I was in my car driving on i90, driving back into the city to the neighborhood I lived in, and I was looking at the huge, like, Beautiful skyline of Chicago. And my phone rang and it said, Allison Riley, who's the producer of the main stage cast of, of Second City in Chicago.

Jenn Kamp [02:50:18] Chicago.

Holly Laurent [02:50:19] And I was like, why is Alison Riley calling me? Hello? And she was like, how you doing? Holly blah, blah, small talk. And I was like, great. She's like, are you in the car? And I was like, yeah. She was like, would you pull over for a second? And I was like, pull over. I'm like, who died? I was like, scared. And I was like, yeah. And she was like, I'm calling because we're offering you a spot in the main stage cast for the next review. And honestly, John, it's all I'd ever wanted. It's what I'd worked for every day for 10 years. And so had, you know, hundreds of other improvisers. And there's six spots, you know, thousands of improvisers through the years, and there's only six spots on that stage. And I mean, as I was driving away from that place that had become, become such an albatross, you know, and. Is that the right use of the word albatross? And man, I, I left and the net appeared and that was, that was quite a moment. And so for the next three years, I day, all day long I would write comedy and all night long I would perform for like sold out rooms of people who were there to eat it up. I didn't have to like, you know, go to Kinko's and make show posters and put them up on telephone poles all over town and like hand out flyers and try to get people to come to my shows and, you know, try to like, whatever, like I just got to show up and, and put on my show clothes that, that they had laundered for me and bought for me and, and hear the stage manager Be like 15 and be like, thank you, 15, and put on my makeup and get ready and just shoot the shit and do the dumbest bits with the five funniest people in the world. And, and we would do these shows every night and they would, the laughter was like, it was like a drug and it just would come in like waves every night and, and you know, and then you become so familiar with it that you even like, you have a, you have a bad audience one night. Like a lot of times Friday night late shows, the 10:30 show on Fridays are always pretty bad because people are tired because they actually worked that day. And also it's, it's after 10:30, so now they've had a few drinks, so They're a little bit, like, intoxicated, and it can end up being, you know, like a slog. And, like, wow, what an incredible privilege that, like, live comedy can become a slog, you know, And. And. And it. It truly was the best.

Jenn Kamp [02:52:53] And then.

Holly Laurent [02:52:53] And we would have improv sets at the end of the. You would do the, like, full sketch review that was, like, directed and set and everything, and, like, cues and chair sets and everything. Everything. And then. And then we saw the audience, like, and now we want to improvise for a while, like, order another drink. We're gonna do an improv set for half hour. An hour. So. And I got to improvise every single night, like, as my job, which was all I ever wanted. It was really great. It was. It was like, whoa, what do you do when you actually get the thing, the only thing you ever wanted? It's weird, man. It's really weird because then. Then there came a point where I was like, I have to eventually leave this job, and I have to figure out what's next. And, man, it. That for me was honestly, like, I. I grieved leaving that job as if someone had died. I mean, the grief for me was as deep as it was for grief I've had with death.

John Dehlin [02:53:47] Like, you were leaving the church sort of.

Holly Laurent [02:53:49] Right.

John Dehlin [02:53:49] You were leaving religion kind of. No.

Holly Laurent [02:53:51] Oh, my gosh, John. This is why you're so good at it. Yeah. I never would have thought about it like that. But, I mean, I was. No, I couldn't. I never did. I. I didn't. I didn't realize that.

John Dehlin [02:54:02] I knew, like, something big was happening.

Holly Laurent [02:54:04] This is the cuz. Like, my other friends left. Left the show, too, and moved on to other jobs and whatever. Saturday Night Live, all stuff. And. And I. Or just leaving the show, and they weren't crushed. I was, like. Crushed. I mean.

Jenn Kamp [02:54:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:54:23] When you left what?

Holly Laurent [02:54:24] When I left Second City.

John Dehlin [02:54:25] Oh, okay.

Holly Laurent [02:54:26] Well, I mean, I was crushed.

John Dehlin [02:54:28] So tomorrow I want to. I. When we do part two, I want to talk about your comedy career, because, again, I. I want to geek out a little bit about that.

Holly Laurent [02:54:34] Okay, cool.

John Dehlin [02:54:35] But I. But I want to go back to the. When you're leaving the mega church. Right. And you're getting that, you know, you're making the decision and you quit and you're leaving the church and you're wondering what your next step is going to be, and you get the call.

Holly Laurent [02:54:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:54:55] That almost sounded like, number one, a leap of faith that you're leaving.

Holly Laurent [02:55:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:55:00] And then, number two, divine intervention that you get blessed for taking a leap of faith. Except you're leaving your religion.

Holly Laurent [02:55:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:55:10] And going to do something secular. And I'm just wondering how that was for you. How did you process the fact that you left your religion, you left your church effectively and went to do something very secular, but it almost felt like divine intervention. How did you process that?

Holly Laurent [02:55:30] That's crazy, John. I don't know that I, I don't know that I did process it on that level, but you're exactly right. That's what was happening, happening. And I think what you're saying is true. I think I made comedy my religion. It filled all the same things. It, it was the, it was the community. It was, we gathered, we had leaders, we had language, we had lingo, we had codes of conduct. I mean, you have the comedy, you know, you don't steal jokes, you don't crib material. You don't, you know, you do that. You know, all it was.

John Dehlin [02:56:12] Right. You're professional. You.

Holly Laurent [02:56:14] Yeah, it's, it's a. And it became, it became my church. And so, yeah, maybe that was part of the crushing depression and, and grief when I left was because I'm like, oh, wow. I mean, and, and, and, man, you know, Second City in Chicago, that's kind of the, that's kind of the, the top. You've, like, hit the ceiling, you know, know, in terms of being able to, like, a job in comedy. And so then my husband and I got into the, into our car with our dog and we drove to la, and I cried the whole way there. And then it was a really humbling and painful reset, man, to go from, like, you know, you start to believe the, like, bullshit about yourself of, like, this thing that I'm doing is really special. It's so special to me. And then you kind of believe the, of, like, oh, I must be special. And then I got to la and I was like, I'm not special. I'm nobody. And, you know, I built up a, I, I, I'd, I'd gotten up to a certain amount of, like, I, I, I, I don't know, in Chicago, it was like I was somebody, I could do it, you know, I could do. And I got to LA and I was 100% nobody and had to start from scratch. And that was. Wow, that was, that was a really hard year. Like, that first year of my marriage was, like, really hard. I'd say that first year in la, LA was, I guess, I guess wasn't. What doesn't kill us makes us stronger.

Reflections on the Faith Journey and Closing Part One

John Dehlin [02:58:03] All right, one Final question for this, this episode. So this has been a beautiful ride with you of your journey from what, Christ to comedy or from Christianity to comedy? Right.

Holly Laurent [02:58:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:58:16] That was beautiful. Perfect. I want to go back. You know, you just shared with us three hours. Three hours of really intimate stuff. Right?

Holly Laurent [02:58:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:58:29] Your most vulnerable and important and interesting moments, including your faith journey. Right. And your upbringing. And I'm kind of repeating a tiny bit, a theme we've already talked about. But at any point did you ever go to your parents and tell them what you just told us? This whole story? Everything. How the church hurt you, how it, how you studied, how you wrestled with it, lost your faith, got. Got to the mega church, were serving in it, but didn't believe and had to leave because it was tearing you apart. Was any of this stuff you could take to your parents and just tell them?

Holly Laurent [02:59:15] I've had the thought several times while we're talking, John. I've had the thought for the first time in my life maybe I could talk to them.

John Dehlin [02:59:22] But, but that's my point is you just told the world something that you to this day haven't felt comfortable telling your own mom and dad.

Jenn Kamp [02:59:35] I know.

John Dehlin [02:59:36] Like what organ? Because you don't like. I do not consider myself a religion hater. I don't. I'm not even. Mormon stories isn't about taking people out of religion or, or, or, or tearing down faith. It's not, it's not. It's about informed consent and about supporting people in transition. However. So even though I and I, I had a great religious upbringing, so I'm not anti religion, I don't hate religion. But what type of monstrous organization. I just want to end on and get your perspective. What type of organization raises to adulthood a kid that goes through such heart wrenching and powerful and beautiful and tragic experiences that they can never actually tell to their own mom and dad.

Holly Laurent [03:00:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:00:29] Even their 48.

Holly Laurent [03:00:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:00:32] And they can't tell their mom and dad what they end up telling the whole world, but they still haven't told mom and dad. What system creates that. What type of system.

Holly Laurent [03:00:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:00:44] Creates that dynamic.

Holly Laurent [03:00:47] That's a.

John Dehlin [03:00:48] Because this is the Mormon experience.

Holly Laurent [03:00:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:00:50] Right. Yeah, this is the Mormon experience. And it's, it looks like it's the evangelical Christian experience.

Holly Laurent [03:00:56] Oh. Oh, yeah. You're hitting the nail on the head there for sure. And it was only in the last few years, like the first time I did Bart Campolo's podcast, Humanize Me, he was like, is there anything we don't want to talk about? And I was like, yeah, I'm not out to my parents, and so I don't want that to come up. And he was like, okay. And so we never said, like, in that we did a whole interview and we never talked about what my actual beliefs are. And he's. He sent me, like, people were emailing afterwards and being like, what? What's her? Is she or isn't she? What is she? And. And I was like. So I came back on. And. And after I came after, I decided, like, I. I'm. I may not have had that conversation with my parents, but I'm no longer going to withhold it from. Yeah, my. The. From my life of sharing. Like, this is actually me. If you. You know what?

Jenn Kamp [03:02:02] If.

Holly Laurent [03:02:03] Because you're asking me, I'm telling you. And anytime anyone asks me now, in the last several years, sort of since I've now become more vocal about, like, this is actually me, I. Anytime someone asks me, I'm more than happy to tell, and they're not asking me, and they don't want to know. And it's one of the most asked questions I get with my podcast Mega, because my dad is currently a pastor of a megachurch, and I have a podcast called Mega, an improvised satire from the staff of fictional megachurch. And people are always in any interviews or whatever. The question I get almost every single interview is like, what does your dad think about this podcast? And I'm like, I don't know. I have not hid it from them. Greg and I talk about it in front of them. I say, I have to do a call for my podcast. We're pocket We. I am very. And they don't ask. And I. And people are like, well, do they listen to it? And I'm like, I don't know. I think they've figured out how to. Like, they're not really technologically savvy. They don't have iPhones and stuff. Like, but I think they know how to. I mean, my dad Googles everything. I'm like, what if he Googled my website? Like, I have essays on there of things that I've written, like, wrestling with this. I wrote an essay that got nominated for a Pushcart Prize called Villain, where I'm deconstructing all of this. And, like, who is the villain? Me or my parents? Like, I think that their news source is misguiding them. They think that my news source is misguiding me. Me. You know, Like, I. I've. I've been putting it out there. I'm like, what if it wins the push cart price. And, like, what if somebody sends it to my dad or whatever? And I'm always just like, well, then maybe we'll have the conversation. And so I've never thought this until this very moment, but maybe actually that's why I am writing these things and sitting and having these conversations and answering these questions and being forthright about it, finally, is because maybe that will make that conversation happen, maybe it won't. And it's. One of the great griefs of my life is that my parents are such good people and intended such good things for me and unintentionally harmed me. And all parents do in all ways, you know, like. Like, for sure, no parents is perfect. And you learn and you do your best. But it's really interesting. I also. I've had all these first thoughts today. One of the first thoughts I had when we were back when we were talking about sex, I was like, oh, wow. Maybe that's a big part of why I never had kids was because it was so pounded into me the whole. My whole life that, like, pregnancy will destroy your life. I'm like. And I'm so sensitive. Like, I take that to heart, you know? And I know a lot of people talk about how it's so. So it's so insane, cuckoo bananas to be like, no sex, no sex, no sex. No 6. No 6, no 6. One day, everything goes. Have at it, kiddos. Do anything and everything. It all go. And. And that, like. And that these Christian kids are like, on their wedding night, just being like, what? I've heard so many girls be like, I didn't want to have sex because I was so freaked out. Like, the big X thing of my arm. Arms, like, pushing away. Like, I've sent. I've spent so much time defending myself against, like, a male. Come on. And then in the switch of a. Of a light switch, it's like. And now it's all sanctioned and condoned again. It goes back to the college stuff of, like, wait, marriage all came from a thing of, like, property being passed down. So there wasn't marriage. Adam and Eve weren't married. Married is about property. And it's a thing with the state. Like, you're not married when you have the ceremony in the church. You're married. Married when you sign that paper at the courthouse. Like, it's all a thing of like, oh, but I think the divine cosmic creator of the universe is so interested in where I rub my genitals that, like, there's this marriage certificate that ultimately is Only about property. That is what sanctifies this thing. Wow, sorry. I just really got up on a soapbox about that. But, but it's interesting to me that like maybe be interesting, maybe that thing with my dad and my wedding was him trying to push it. And maybe me now being honest in the world is me trying to push it. But this codependency thing of protecting someone else from themselves is I guess gonna be like the. A number one first thing I gotta go get into therapy for and maybe ocd.

John Dehlin [03:06:44] Well, I don't mean to be hammering this, but it, it, I just. I'm not anti evangelical Christianity per se. I'm not anti Mormonism per se. I'm not anti religion per se. But I will say this. Any system that makes it so too spouse. Because in Mormonism I've literally had this happen where like a wife comes to me and says I don't believe anymore, but I'm terrified to tell my husband. Yeah, her very husband independently came to me and said I don't believe in Mormonism anymore. And I'm terrified to tell my wife. Like any, any system that makes it so two spouses. You can't tell the person you love most you've given your life to. You can't be honest and open with them about the most sensitive and tender and important things about your life. Any system that does that to a two partners, any system that comes between a parent and a child where the child can't say, hey mom, hey dad, I'm really struggling with this. I'm having a hard time with this. I need your help. Can you help me? Especially when they're an adult, is the system is a damaging, harmful, toxic system. And that's what I loathe. Number one thing I loath both about high demand religions above the purity, culture above the shame, is the way it destroys families, is the way it comes between families, destroys relationships between parents and children, between spouses and. And it's weirdly darkly validating to see that it's just not our culture.

Holly Laurent [03:08:24] Yeah, yeah. That it's, it's pervasive.

John Dehlin [03:08:27] Sorry and thank you.

Holly Laurent [03:08:28] Yeah, exactly. John. I was sitting at a dinner with some friends, peers and their parents recently and I was watching my peers talk to their parents and it was everything I could do to hold it together because I was looking at them talk because they were like just talking about everything and anything, politics, this, the stake, the whatever, the weather, everything. And I, and I had the verbal thought in my mind, I wonder what it would be like to not be from a cult. And to be able to have these relationships with the people who I so deeply love and who I admired for so long. And now that admiration got kind of toppled because of, you know, I mean, the Fox News ification of our parents has created some really, so such painful, painful things, you know, and, yeah, I marvel. I look at people talking to their parents and I'm like, wow. I, I, what would I give? It is one of the great griefs of my life. And I talk to Greg about this all the time of, like, and, and who knows? Maybe, maybe it'll happen. Maybe it'll never happen.

John Dehlin [03:09:49] What would you give to, to what?

Holly Laurent [03:09:51] To be able to, like, have an open relationship where we talk about everything and anything. I mean, of course, there's some stuff that, like, you know, that your parents don't want to hear and you're not going to talk to them about, but just to be able to be like, this is who I am, and it's how I see the world, and I'm changing all the time, but I, I'm finally getting to a place where I'm like, like, who I am is not that bad. And if you knew who I am, you would think I'm really bad. And, and it would hurt you and it would wound you and all that stuff. And yeah, I'm, I've, you know, been doing the work lately of, of that, of that thing of coming to believe something other than the fact that I'm bad and wrong and shameful and deserving of a very real hell and all that stuff. And a lot of that comes through the voice of my character in, in mega. My character. It's funny, the longer I've played her, the more it, like, kind of starts to, it's like, dinging my soul a little bit to say the things, things that she believes, which is the things that I was raised to believe. And, and, but, but I think it's also been kind of healing. And, and it's the number one thing, like, we get when people reach out to us. It's, it's never about, like, the comedy. I mean, we get compliments for the comedy and that people are, you know, laughing so hard, they're embarrassing themselves at the gym or whatever, which is great. Which is, that's what I want to hear. But so many people are, so many people are reaching out. Being like, this is helping me so much in healing. And I'm like, wow. I, wow. But also, it's, like, very strange to be like, I come from a line of, like, of Preachers and performers. I would say it's a performance. And now here I am, I'm like, wait, do we just undo our father's work and then our children will undo ours? Maybe, you know, I don't know. I don't know. But I guess the question of what would I give to have that relationship with them is I guess the question I need to answer of, like, what would I give? Maybe I just have to give a lot of codependency therapy hours and dollars and then just go force it.

John Dehlin [03:12:29] Well, we could. That's its own episode because those. That doesn't always go well. And the truth is some people. People just never want to have that. And that's one of the most tragic things, is when people have to just accept that they'll never have an intimate relationship with their parents. And then sometimes a parent will surprise a kid and actually be really affirming and loving and supportive over time, and they'll change. So. But go ahead.

Holly Laurent [03:12:51] I think your question that you stated so well of like, again, not shade on the, like, people who believe, who get good things from it, not know. But your question of, like, what kind of system. Because you could think about it, like, if. If there are some cultures where if a. A teenage daughter of a. Of a strict family is raped, like, they have to stone her and kill her. You know, that's the same thing we're talking about here of like, what kind of system brings that about. And that's like a physicalization of like actual violence, you know? Know. But I never would have put it. I never would have put it into the context you're putting it of, like, so you can stone a girl for being raped and losing her purity or

Jenn Kamp [03:13:38] whatever,

Holly Laurent [03:13:40] but isn't that also kind of like, that's just a physical manifestation of the emotional thing that we're all.

John Dehlin [03:13:46] If your parents. If your parents think you're smokes, if your parents think you're bad, if your parents think you're so bad they don't want to know what your life is really about. Out. Is that psychological stoning?

Holly Laurent [03:14:00] Yeah. Damn, dude.

John Dehlin [03:14:05] Jen, you were going to say something. Any reflections before we tie this up?

Jenn Kamp [03:14:13] No, I think. I think I'll keep it.

John Dehlin [03:14:18] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [03:14:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:14:18] For next episode.

Jenn Kamp [03:14:20] Maybe. Okay, maybe. I think it's just you always bring such insight.

John Dehlin [03:14:25] Everyone loves your insight, Jen. What are you. What are you thinking or feeling? We.

Holly Laurent [03:14:29] We.

John Dehlin [03:14:30] We're going to close with this.

Jenn Kamp [03:14:31] I just don't. I don't want to. I don't want to take away from Holly's story.

John Dehlin [03:14:34] Okay.

Jenn Kamp [03:14:35] And mine is super personal and I'll get super emotional about it.

Holly Laurent [03:14:39] Okay.

Jenn Kamp [03:14:40] But it tied in. But maybe.

Holly Laurent [03:14:41] Maybe tomorrow.

Jenn Kamp [03:14:43] Okay.

Holly Laurent [03:14:44] Yeah, I'd love to hear. But also, if you want to sleep on it and you change your mind, that's cool too.

Jenn Kamp [03:14:49] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:14:51] Do you have any reflections on similarities between.

Jenn Kamp [03:14:55] That's what, like, this whole. I have at the bottom of, like, I do show notes and time codes during the episodes, and I have my own little gen notes that I put at the bottom of this and some in here that I've highlighted and stuff, just because it's crazy to me, the similarities. And I'm. And I'm starting to, like, as I'm learning here and deconstructing here, where we're mostly talking about Mormonism, like, it's crazy to hear the same kind of things in different religions and. And also. And also connecting with you on that. It's. It's not really. It's not really Jesus you're angry at.

Holly Laurent [03:15:49] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [03:15:50] You know.

Holly Laurent [03:15:50] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [03:15:51] It's the religion man made.

Holly Laurent [03:15:53] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [03:15:53] From Jesus.

Holly Laurent [03:15:54] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [03:15:55] That caused all the shame and anger.

Holly Laurent [03:15:57] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [03:15:58] And that, I don't know, it's just like. Like when you left your church and you, you know, had this phone call that, like, was still in your life for you, was maybe a spiritual experience, you know, and how little things like that can be a spiritual experience, you know, can be something that's, you know, sacred to you or like a time in your life where it was a new beginning for you.

Holly Laurent [03:16:28] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [03:16:30] So I don't know. I'm just kind of listening to your story and just writing down things that are. Are coming up that I haven't thought of. But hearing you say them in your own way, in your own religious experience is kind of healing some parts of me. So I think that's a really kind of cool. So. Yes. Anyways. Yeah. So I'm just kind of taking it all in right now.

Holly Laurent [03:16:56] Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jenn Kamp [03:16:59] So thank you.

Holly Laurent [03:17:00] Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:17:01] It.

Holly Laurent [03:17:01] It is nuts, isn't it, that, like, we. We only know what we know in our culture of, you know, whatever church or whatever is so specific. And then to hear and you think,

John Dehlin [03:17:13] like, we think we're alone. We think we're unique. We think we're special. We think we had a uniquely horrible experience.

Holly Laurent [03:17:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:17:20] No one else can empathize with us.

Holly Laurent [03:17:22] Right. And then it's like, oh, wait, wait, this is everybody.

Jenn Kamp [03:17:27] Yeah.

Holly Laurent [03:17:27] And.

John Dehlin [03:17:27] But see, what you. What. What I found is when we. If you. If you show a Mormon how difficult Mormonism can be. They get defensive sometimes. But if you show a Mormon how difficult Scientology or Jehovah's Witnesses or Orthodox Judaism or evangelical Christianity can be.

Holly Laurent [03:17:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:17:46] There's enough distance in that story where they can feel comfortable relating to. To it and then be willing to do that introspection. So you're giving our people a gift by your willingness to tell your story, your evangelical story to us.

Holly Laurent [03:18:00] Oh, wow. Good. That's. Man, it's great.

Jenn Kamp [03:18:05] It's.

Holly Laurent [03:18:06] It's. I knew I was supposed to do this.

Jenn Kamp [03:18:10] Yeah, it is. It is. It's kind of like a healing. It's kind of like a healing. Yeah, it really is. And it's a healing that like.

Holly Laurent [03:18:16] Like the.

Jenn Kamp [03:18:18] The love that you talk about and like the already being worthy just inside of you, like, just you being is like you're worthy. You know, you don't have. Have to check all these boxes. You know, it's the same. Like, that's one place, like, we can all come together if we choose to and kind of live in that love, that would be amazing.

Holly Laurent [03:18:45] Yeah. And I think one of the things that's the most sinister of what all three of us know to be true about these people who believe and who want so badly to. They believe they're good people and they want to be good and they desire goodness. The thing that's so sinister is that we can be written off so easily because they're like, you're just. You're getting it wrong. You're getting the wrong Jesus. You're getting the wrong picture of God. I have the right picture of God. You don't have the right picture of him. And so there's no and so any kind of, like, actual. You know, we say in improv that, like, the essence of improvisation is listening. So you're great improvisation and you're a great improviser. But like that, that active conscious listening, we often confuse listening for waiting our turn to talk. Waiting our turn to talk is not listening. We say in the improv tradition, I come from that actual active, conscious listening is a willingness to be changed. And I just.

John Dehlin [03:19:59] That's good.

Holly Laurent [03:20:00] And I. And. And I just feel like the crux is in there of, like, if. If. If I come into this conversation with you, and I'm like, the Bible is actually perfect and the resurrection is true, and none of that can be touched.

John Dehlin [03:20:16] And I know God's will, and I

Holly Laurent [03:20:18] know God's will, then. Then there. There can't be any actual listening happening. Because. Yeah, because if. Because listening to understand is more infrequent than listening to respond. And so I think with a lot of these people, you end up in a conversation where they are listening to respond rather than listening to understand. And maybe we are too. But, like, this feels really nice because it does feel like we're listening to understand each other. And yeah. And honestly, again, the truth will set you free. Like, what's the word? Worst that's gonna happen.

John Dehlin [03:20:59] I recently. And let's wrap up for today. This is so beautiful. But we recently did this interview with Kara Santa Maria, who's a science spokesperson and an act. It's kind of like a media person personality. She lives in LA, but she's been secular and atheist since, like, 15. Raised more. And. But I. I was thinking she. She's been an advocate for skeptic skepticism and critical thinking and science. So I was expecting her to. I was trying to set her up to say, like, isn't it Sad that in 2022, religion so prevalent and science is still struggling and critical thinking is wanting?

Holly Laurent [03:21:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:21:41] And I was expecting her to, like, say, yeah, religion, blah, blah, blah. And she's like, do you think that if I had a magic wand. Wand, what I would do is. Is get rid of religion? I'm like, kinda. She's like, no, religion can help a lot of people. What I would want to wave a magic wand and do is to give everyone empathy.

Jenn Kamp [03:22:04] Whoa.

Holly Laurent [03:22:07] Wow. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:22:08] Because that's listening. Right. Empathy is listening with your heart.

Holly Laurent [03:22:12] Right.

John Dehlin [03:22:12] To learn. Learn.

Holly Laurent [03:22:13] Right.

John Dehlin [03:22:13] Isn't that what empathy is?

Holly Laurent [03:22:15] Right. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:22:16] That's what we need. It's not that we need to get rid of religion or even churches. We just need to stop objectifying people and thinking that we know everything and learn to listen.

Holly Laurent [03:22:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:22:26] And care and be willing to change. That's what we need. Oh, right.

Holly Laurent [03:22:31] There's this great story where my. My husband is in an improv group called the Improvised Shakespeare Company, and they, through a wonderful series of events, Sir Patrick Stewart, who's an incredible Shakespearean actor. He was part of the Royal Shakespeare Company in England and all that before he became like a movie.

John Dehlin [03:22:48] And he's part of the Marvel universe, so. Right.

Holly Laurent [03:22:51] And Patrick came to do a show with the Improvised Shakespeare Company, and he'd never improvised before, but he's been acting his whole life. And he has such an amazing, powerful

John Dehlin [03:23:03] presentation.

Holly Laurent [03:23:03] Yeah. And his Shakespearean language. He has a real skill with Shakespeare. Shakespearean language and the pentameter and the rhyme and all this stuff. And. And so. But he'd never improvised before. And he was about to play in this show, that's a pretty heady concept. Like, it's a. It's a 90 minute Shakespeare play that has never been done before and never will be done again. They're improvising the whole time, and they're. And they get a title for tonight's play at the top of the show, and then they improvise the whole thing. And they're in full. There's. They're in full. I don't know if it's like quadrameter, but they're. And rhyming the. The whole time and referencing stuff. It's like really intensely cool and very impressive and incredibly hard. And Patrick. And. And so Patrick was like, explain to me how to improvise. And. And this is before the show while they're backstage in the green room, like, doing warmups and stuff. And they basically were like, okay. And they gave him a crash course of what long form improv is in like two minutes. And he listened to the whole thing that they were saying, and he just goes, oh, I believe so. What you're doing out there is your listening. And they were like, yeah, if you just listen, like, it'll all. Then it'll like, flow out of you. All you have to do is. And he's like, so just. It's just listening. And they were like, yeah. And I was like, wow, Sir Patrick Stewart just, like, in one word, like, condensed our art form perfectly. All I got to do is listen.

John Dehlin [03:24:40] And what's wrong with churches?

Holly Laurent [03:24:42] Right, right, right.

John Dehlin [03:24:43] Yeah.

Holly Laurent [03:24:44] Because if you listen, it's all there.

John Dehlin [03:24:46] Yeah.

Holly Laurent [03:24:46] Yeah. Thanks for this talk, John.

John Dehlin [03:24:49] Oh, thank you, Holly and Jen.

Holly Laurent [03:24:51] Jen.

John Dehlin [03:24:52] Yeah. Thanks, Jen.

Jenn Kamp [03:24:53] You're welcome.

John Dehlin [03:24:54] All right, well. Well, Holly, that's part one.

Holly Laurent [03:24:57] Yay.

John Dehlin [03:24:58] Of your two part interview with Mormon stories. Okay, thank you. It's really beautiful and powerful. You've given our people a huge gift today.

Holly Laurent [03:25:05] Thank you. Thanks for. I like that you have a degree in psychology. It's very helpful.

John Dehlin [03:25:15] I'll bill you later.

Jenn Kamp [03:25:16] Okay. I'm.

Holly Laurent [03:25:17] And I'm glad now I have your number too. Now I'm gonna be like, hey, John, I feel like when I never, like, as. As a. As a person in comedy, I often don't have insurance. And so whenever I meet someone who's a doctor, I'm always like, oh, what is this thing? You know, I'm gonna start doing that with you with. With. With psychology, like, John, what's wrong with me?

John Dehlin [03:25:36] I'll say, I have no idea. But this is wonderful. And check out mega. It's a just. Holly is super talented. It's your husband, right? He does the Australia. And, yeah, he's super talented. It's really funny. We'll talk tomorrow will all be about our comedy career and. And Mega and what we're doing. That'll be. And. And building a new life after religion.

Holly Laurent [03:25:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:25:58] And. And all that. So thank you, Holly. Thank you, Jen. You're awesome.

Jenn Kamp [03:26:04] Thank you. You're sweet.

John Dehlin [03:26:06] Thank you, listeners and viewers. And come right back for part two with Holly Laurent. Laurent. Yep. Where we're going to be talking about her life after evangelical Christianity and her life with comedy. But thanks for your support. We appreciate all of you who make Mormon stories in the Open Stories foundation possible. Thanks for your donations. If you want to support us, go to MormonStories.org click on the Donate button. Become a monthly donor. And if they want to support Mega, what do they do?

Holly Laurent [03:26:37] If you have a Patreon or Mega the podcast? Patreon, maybe.

John Dehlin [03:26:41] So is it patreon.com mega. Okay.

Holly Laurent [03:26:45] Or mega the podcast, and they can support you. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:26:47] All right. We'll include a link to that in the show notes.

Holly Laurent [03:26:50] Hey, thanks, man.

Jenn Kamp [03:26:50] Got it.

John Dehlin [03:26:51] All right, everyone, be kind to each other. Be good to each other, and most importantly, listen. Listen to each other. Love you guys. Take care. See you soon.

Holly Laurent [03:27:02] Is that what you were going for?

John Dehlin [03:27:03] Yeah, that's exactly what I was going for. I was like, good job, good job.

Part Two Introduction and Comedy Beginnings

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 1601

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is May 6, 2022, and we're back with Holly Laurent.

Holly Laurent [00:00:12] That's how I wanted to.

John Dehlin [00:00:13] Holly, yesterday was so amazing.

Holly Laurent [00:00:15] Thank you so much for saying that. I really. I. My head was spinning last night, and I'm so glad that you liked it.

John Dehlin [00:00:23] We did, like, three and a half intense hours, and I'm like, I gotta go. See ya.

Holly Laurent [00:00:27] I know you're both amazing in that way because, like, my friends are like, how can you have anything to say for that long? And I'm like, I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:00:35] You're like, yeah, I may need to go to the bathroom after an hour. And I'm like, we'll see. Three and a half hours go by.

Holly Laurent [00:00:41] I was sweating. My shirt was a goner. I got back to the hotel and was like, wow.

John Dehlin [00:00:48] Did you have a vulnerability hangover?

Holly Laurent [00:00:50] 100%. I really did. I was like, oh. Oh. Like, yeah. And I genuinely started to feel, like, fear for a few different things that I shared. And. And I sat and I was talking about it with a friend that I met last night, and she was like, oh, yeah, then that's gonna be the good parts. And I was like, yeah, exactly.

Jenn Kamp [00:01:11] I've.

Holly Laurent [00:01:12] I've learned so far that, like, as soon as something really genuinely frightens me, I'm like, oh, there's the thing. Like, that's the thing that we're supposed to be talking about.

John Dehlin [00:01:20] Run to it instead of run away from it. Of course, that sometimes has familial implications. Right? Like, we don't live on islands.

Holly Laurent [00:01:28] Right. In improv, we have a little slogan you'll see on T shirts and stuff that say, follow the fear. Like, what's the. Like, what feels risky? What feels like go for that.

John Dehlin [00:01:37] And I was dying to say this yesterday. And let me just say, for those of you who didn't join us in the last episode, Holly is the co producer, host of an amazing podcast called Mega, where she and her husband do satire around an evangelical Christian megachurch. Do you wanna introduce that again?

Holly Laurent [00:01:58] You said it's so great. Yeah, It's a comedy. It's an improvised satire of a fictional megachurch. We play characters who work in the church. And each episode we have another comic come on and play a character from that community. And it's always like, the thing about a megachurch is it could just go forever. Cause there's a food court. And now, as the world of the show has continued to build, the campus of the megachurch has a lazy river. It has a, like, it's all these. You. Cause someone was like, wait, during the

John Dehlin [00:02:26] sermons, there's a lazy river?

Jenn Kamp [00:02:28] Yeah.

Holly Laurent [00:02:28] I mean, so that people can like go have a wholesome water park experience at church, you know what I mean? And we'll go do baptisms in the lazy river and it'll be so great. And like the world has been built out in such a way because we just let, when our guest comes on, we're like, what's something that you like? Like, what's a weird job you've had or something that you're really passionate about? And so, you know, like, we've had one. One person came on and she was a. A judge, a pie contest judge, pie eating contest judge for the, like, Christian Fair.

John Dehlin [00:03:02] I heard this. Wasn't there like a thousand five hundred submissions or something like that?

Holly Laurent [00:03:06] Yeah, yeah, you listen to that one. And we had one person come on and be like, I lead the walk on water ministry, ministering to people who enjoy aquatic activities. That's the person who placed a lazy river on the campus. It's just like. And it can just keep going and going and going and going and going.

Jenn Kamp [00:03:22] We need to build an ex Mormon community. Like when everyone comes, they get to like add something to like our ex Mormon little park or whatever like you guys are doing. Yeah, yeah.

Holly Laurent [00:03:33] Build the world and then play in it.

Jenn Kamp [00:03:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:36] So, yeah. So last episode we had Holly talk about her being raised not only as an evangelical Christian, because on Mormon stories we try and interview people of other high demand religions or faiths, but as the granddaughter, having two grandfathers who are both preachers and having a dad who's a preacher and a Christian rock star along with your mom. So, like an intense evangelical Christian upbringing. And we talked about her faith journey of being raised in that environment and then working for a mega church for 10 years while she was doing comedy at Second City and other places in Chicagoland. And then. But we ended with her leaving the megachurch, kind of losing her faith and not talking to any family members about it basically, to this day.

Holly Laurent [00:04:25] Nailed it.

John Dehlin [00:04:27] So that was yesterday. If you haven't listened to it, stop, go back and listen. Today we're going to talk mostly about comedy. It's going to be about two hours because Jen has to go. I'm going to go watch the new Marvel movie with Dr. Strange, Margi and I. So we're going to do about two hours and we're going to talk about comedy and sprinkle in the Christianity and The mega stuff towards the end. How's that sound?

Holly Laurent [00:04:48] Fantastic.

John Dehlin [00:04:49] And we've got the wonderful Jen camp with us, as always.

Jenn Kamp [00:04:53] Hi, everybody.

John Dehlin [00:04:54] Thanks for joining, Jen.

Jenn Kamp [00:04:55] Yeah, you're so welcome.

John Dehlin [00:04:56] Okay, so I want to go back. Rewind.

Holly Laurent [00:04:58] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:04:59] I grew up loving. I had older siblings. So I'm this Mormon kid in Katy, Texas, near Houston in the 70s, falling in love with Gilda Radner, Jane Curtin, Chevy Chase, Bill Murray, Dan aykroyd, John Belushi, Mr. Bill. Like Steve Martin. Steve Martin. Totally listening to Steve Martin albums. So whenever somebody says to me Second City, I'm like, boing. Because I know that's where a lot of those people got their comedic start. And by the way, my eldest child was born in Chicago. I lived in Chicago. I've been to Second City with Margi. My sister Gina lived. And brother Joel all lived in Chicago. So I have a love for Chicago. I have a love for comedy. I have a love for Second City. And I've been into comedy forever. So I want to start with kind of like, how did you get an interest in comedy? How did that start? Who were your early comedic influences? And then I want to go from there. Is that okay?

Comic Influences and Early Interest in Comedy

Holly Laurent [00:05:58] Yeah, I'd say I have all those same exact comedic influences.

John Dehlin [00:06:01] I mean, you're a few years younger than me, but.

Holly Laurent [00:06:03] Yeah, but did you say Bill Murray?

John Dehlin [00:06:05] Yeah.

Holly Laurent [00:06:05] Really big.

John Dehlin [00:06:06] Totally. Groundhog Day.

Holly Laurent [00:06:07] Groundhog Day and what about Bob are top five?

John Dehlin [00:06:10] Totally. Also, I got Ghostbusters. Right?

Holly Laurent [00:06:13] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:06:14] Oh, freaking Caddyshack. Right?

Holly Laurent [00:06:16] 100%, yeah. Did you get into Fletcher?

John Dehlin [00:06:20] Oh, totally.

Holly Laurent [00:06:20] Really liked Fledge?

John Dehlin [00:06:22] Yeah, yeah, Huge.

Holly Laurent [00:06:23] I had. I would memorize them. I would watch those movies so many times they'd be memorized.

John Dehlin [00:06:26] Yeah.

Holly Laurent [00:06:27] And a lot of times I had the weird VHS taped off of TV version of the movie. So it was like, not all there, you know, cut it down and stuff. But.

John Dehlin [00:06:38] Right. Because the commercials, they would have edited out parts of the movie because it was inappropriate.

Holly Laurent [00:06:43] Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:06:43] Or they needed to make room for commercials.

Holly Laurent [00:06:46] Exactly. So it's funny, John. Cause my earliest memories are of thinking that I was performing. I had this assumed audience. This might be psychosis, but like, I would. I would, like, think that, like, someone was watching me. And I would kind of like do a little show and I would become a different person. And I remember, like, I would decide who I was and like, have this different, like, you know, I would sit and be like, oh, man, if this drinking doesn't kill me, her memory will. And I would just like. And I would walk into the kitchen. And a lot of it was like mimicking. When I was really young, I would just mimic anything I saw. But then I would decide. I was like, I one time was like, I think I'm a Hell's angel. Cause I'd like seen Hell's Angels. And my parents had said they were bad, you know, the guys on the Harleys and stuff. And I would just be like, ooh, that's who I am. And I would walk into the kitchen and look at my mom and she would be like, holly, blah, blah, blah. And I'd be like, you fool, I'm not Holly.

John Dehlin [00:07:55] You're a method, method comedian.

Jenn Kamp [00:07:57] Yeah.

Holly Laurent [00:07:58] And, and, and I also really got very, I found making people laugh to be a really intoxicating feeling because like, you're like, ooh. I just, I just like, I can like see and hear an effect that I'm having over you. You know, I, I of my master's thesis on the psychology behind performance and the history and everything. Because one time I read a quote from Laurence Olivier where someone asked him some high minded question about his craft and why is it that you act or whatever. And he looked at the person and was like, so people will look at me. And I was like, whoa, is there something to that? And I started looking into that. A lot of performers are people who, who at a very like crucial developmental age, like, didn't feel seen or like, like because they weren't. Because their primary love source, like couldn't or didn't like see them or notice them because whatever was going on in the mom's life or the dad's life or whatever. And so then it becomes this thing of trying to put yourself in front of people to see, like, do I, do you see me? Do you hear me? Like, am I here? You know, like you're almost testing your own existence or definitely your self worth. Like you get up for actual applause. Like in comedy, I'm like getting up there to actually get applause. Like, like, oh, yeah, there's something to this. But I, I just really loved making people laugh and I just wanted more of it. And if I got one laugh, then I get another one. So I would kind of turn it on, you know. And I look back now and I'm like, oh, I was completely getting that from my dad. I remember thinking like, most preachers and pastors are so boring. Conch, shoe, snooze. But my dad will get up there and he would kind of do like dramatizations. He would tell funny stories. One of my, I'D say, my first performance. Thing is, my dad taught me. He was like, hey, Hal, do you want to do Echo Canyon with me? When I would travel with him when he was doing, like, he was an itinerant evangelist for a long time and just to be able to spend time so he was never home. Like, after the band broke up, he became an itinerary evangelist.

John Dehlin [00:10:22] What is that? Oh, wait, what's Echo Canyon?

Holly Laurent [00:10:25] What?

John Dehlin [00:10:25] You said Echo Canyon.

Jenn Kamp [00:10:27] What did you just say?

Holly Laurent [00:10:27] Oh, yeah, Echo Canyon.

John Dehlin [00:10:28] Yeah.

Holly Laurent [00:10:29] So Echo Canyon is this thing he made up or cribbed from somewhere that it was a little, like a little bit. A little sketch that he would do at the top of when he would get up to speak at these different, like, youth camps or, like, he would do, like the chapel at this college or, you know, different. He was just always traveling around, speaking. And so we did this thing called Echo Canyon where I would hide beforehand in the venue and I would sit and wait in my hiding spot. And finally, when there would be music and everything, I'd just be waiting and waiting and waiting in my spot, and I'd be like, oh, it's gonna be so good. And finally, when my dad would come out and start speaking, he would come out and he would do a character where he'd be like, oh, wow, look at this beautiful Canyon. Wow. Sign here says Echo Canyon. Wow. Beautiful. Oh, it says, try your echo. All right, I'll start with like a one syllable word. Something easy.

Jenn Kamp [00:11:27] Bread.

Holly Laurent [00:11:28] And where I was hiding in the venue, I'd be like, bread, bread. And everyone would be like, ah. And I'd be like. And then he'd be like, that was great. I'm gonna do another one. Butter, Butter, butter, butter, butter. Wow. Maybe I'll go three syllables this time. Baloney. And every time I'd be like, don't do baloney. He'd be like, that's weird. It didn't work that time. Maybe I'll do like a sentence. I'm the handsomest man in the world. Baloney, baloney, baloney. Nice, wholesome little joke. The venue. But the venue would always, like, they would just think it was so cute or unexpected or whatever. It would always get a huge laugh. And John, y', all, that laughter seeped into my blood. And I was like, I like that. And. But he would. I remember thinking, like, most preachers are so boring. And my dad is.

Jenn Kamp [00:12:21] He.

Holly Laurent [00:12:21] He just blows the roof off of every place he. He walks into. He would walk into places and be like, I. I'm going to tell you about The Jesus that I know. Because I don't know if you know about the Jesus that I know. And so, you know, what. What's your name, sir? John. John, get up here, John. And he would always pick, like, the hot athlete who everyone wanted to be or kiss, you know, and. And he'd be like, get up here, John. Oh, wow, John, you're tall. Okay. This is the story of Jesus healing the leper. So I'm gonna be Jesus. Get down on your knees, John. Get down on your knees. You're gonna be the leper, okay? And everyone would be like, ah. Cause, like, seeing the hot athlete who'd been winning capture the flag all week, like, up there on his knees, they'd be like, oh, what's happening? And my dad, the leper came to Jesus. And, you know, it was. It was the law in the land at that day that if you had leprosy and you saw someone coming, you would have to shout out the word unclean so that they knew and could avoid you and, you know, not become infected with your terrible disease. And he's like, so, okay, you're the leper. You have leprosy, John. So. So shout it out. Unclean. And the guy would be like, unclean. My dad would be like, you could do better than that. You know, and we just act it all out. And then he'd be like, do you think. Do you think that Jesus came up to the leper when he said, I know that you can heal me, Jesus. And he would make John do like, I know you can heal me, Jesus. Do you think he came up and, like, put a finger in his head of, like, okay, little leper, but don't get your leprosy on me or whatever. He's like, no, Jesus I know healed the leper like this pulls him up into this embrace and is, like, holding him in front of him, the g. And then he would keep preaching right through it while he's holding him in his arms. The Jesus I know doesn't care that you have porn under your bed or that you blah, blah, blah. The Jesus that I know doesn't care that your parents are divorced or blah, blah, blah. The Jesus that I know wants to hold you like this, you know, like, it was this whole. And I mean, people would really, really respond. And I. And I was watching all that, and I think I just started doing that. And I'm a lot like him. And so I. But I really. I think that I was from a world that was so. The stakes were so dire. I mean, we're talking about heaven and hell. We're talking about eternal damnation for everyone, you know, and love. And that was so intensely scary for me that I think I saw life as like, this absolute dualistic thing of like, well, it's laugh or cry, and I want to laugh because, like, so much of this is crying. Like, the altar calls every night. Everyone would be having these cheerful conversion experiences. And, you know, and. But I would still always give my dad. I'd be like, so if. So if you want to pray over everyone at the altar call, why does it always seem like you're mostly praying over the hot girls and tank tops dad, you know, and just wanting to, like, push stuff with him. But, like, a memory like that tells me that, like, I. I was seeing it, you know, and my way of engaging it was to, like, joke about it or, you know, to, like, give. Kind of like give him guff about it and to joke and whatever.

John Dehlin [00:15:46] And I mean, I was having this thought yesterday that you. You explained some of the reasons why you might have been interested in comedy yesterday, but you also talked about how in your family, you didn't talk about certain things. Isn't comedy a way to talk about things that you're not really supposed to be talking about? 100 in a way, people. So, I mean, it allowed you to say things to your dad you probably couldn't get away with saying without the comedy.

Holly Laurent [00:16:10] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:16:11] Maybe.

Holly Laurent [00:16:11] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:16:12] Yeah.

Holly Laurent [00:16:12] And there's. But there's also a sinister side of that with the stuff that we're talking about here, because, you know, it's really. It can be very abusive and manipulative when somebody can say stuff to you and then be like, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding.

John Dehlin [00:16:25] Yeah. It's. Can be duplicitous.

Holly Laurent [00:16:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:28] Passive aggressive.

Holly Laurent [00:16:29] And then you're like, oh, well, what's wrong with me? If they were only kidding, I guess it's on me. I can't take a joke.

John Dehlin [00:16:33] It's like gaslighting.

Holly Laurent [00:16:34] Yeah, totally.

John Dehlin [00:16:35] Yeah. Okay. You just got emotional talking about working with your dad. I have a question about the. The power that an evangelist has. I don't want to get off track with the comedy stuff, but I just want to know why you felt emotional talking about your dad. And these times with your dad, do you even remember, like, a couple minutes ago, you started to kind of get.

Holly Laurent [00:16:56] Oh, yeah, yeah. And I got so mad at myself for tearing up.

John Dehlin [00:17:02] Nope, nope. We go. We lean into that.

Holly Laurent [00:17:06] I. I think it's probably because, well, a. My emotions are always so Close to the surface because. Probably because I shoved them down for so long, but I think it's because I was tapping into what it felt like to watch him work his magic and how taken I was with it. And it. I was just really like, wow, my dad is really something special. And so then something that happens with probably most kids as they grow up and learn that their parents are human beings who are flawed and, you know, is when they fall off their pedestal, apparently you really idealize. It's very, very painful. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:57] Yeah. And that's what. That's. So you talked about your dad having maybe a little bit of an eye for the hotter, younger women. And I mean, this is Joseph Smith. Right. I mean, Joseph smith had over 40 wives. Right. And. And he married 14 year olds and 15 year olds and 16 year olds. And that's the founder of our religion. And this is a world religion with hundreds of billions of dollars of assets. Like, it's the richest church in the United States, period. Right. And it was founded by what some would say is a sexual predator. Right. I mean, 40, 40 women, 14 year olds. Like, I mean.

Holly Laurent [00:18:33] Yeah, that's. That's assault to do that to a child when you're a person of power.

John Dehlin [00:18:38] Yeah. And so, but, but that's also. That's also, you know, I don't know if the word Elmer Gantry means anything to you or Jim and Jim. Jim Baker or. Or Jerry Faldwell or Jimmy Schwager or. I was going to say Mark Driscoll.

Holly Laurent [00:18:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:57] And the Rise and Fall of Mars Hill. And I want to add that to the show notes.

Holly Laurent [00:19:00] Yeah. Oh, that podcast.

John Dehlin [00:19:02] Oh, did you, did you watch Rise and Follow Mars Hill?

Holly Laurent [00:19:04] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:05] Or listen to it. Yeah, yeah. Because that's every freaking. Every Christian pastor ever. It's just so much power. And I was also just gonna say as you were talking about him bringing you along for his comedy bits.

Holly Laurent [00:19:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:17] And that's kind of what it was. They were. It was a bit. Right.

Holly Laurent [00:19:20] 100% bits.

John Dehlin [00:19:22] Comedy bits plus charisma, plus handsome, plus music. Yeah, that's. That's the power.

Holly Laurent [00:19:30] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:19:30] It's Joel Osteen.

Jenn Kamp [00:19:31] Right.

John Dehlin [00:19:32] It's all of. And that's all of them. It's all the religions I got.

Holly Laurent [00:19:36] So I really struggled with the Rise and Fall of Mars Hill when I was listening to it because I would get so enraged that I would be like, my blood pressure is rising. There's steam gonna come out of my ears. I would have to like take breaks from it and do deep breathing. Because when I would hear him sort of, you know, the clips of him kind of raging from the pulpit. And also the. The atmosphere in which we just give these men carte blanche, authoritarian leadership and don't question it. How we kind of let them overpower us. And there are no checks and balances in these churches. Like, you know, the church that I worked at had a big scandal with the lead pastor and founder and at first the board of elders who are appointed by the, you know, the board of elders, of course they're on his side. They're like, well, we looked into it, we didn't find anything, and he's fine. You know, like, there's what. And I just recently heard, I thought that after the rise and fall of Mars Hill and I had a little bit of trouble with. I was like, this is being done by Christianity Today.

John Dehlin [00:20:45] Yeah. I thought that was kind of. I don't want to swear, but badass. I thought that was kind of cool.

Holly Laurent [00:20:50] I know, I. But at first it bothered me because

John Dehlin [00:20:52] I was like, wait, for listeners who don't know viewers. Seattle had a mega church with, like a millennial pastor who was like, younger and hip and there were grunge bands and everyone's accepted, but he ended up being quite bigoted and hot tempered. And it went from nothing to a megachurch to blowing up and imploding. Is that.

Holly Laurent [00:21:18] And he was very much in the vein of a big, like, conservative, like, white evangelical culture of it's this, this like toxic masculinity and this, like, upholding and celebrating patriarchy. And he would, like, scream from the pulpit about, like, men you need to be. It was just this almost like chest pounding, like, ape behavior of, like, gender roles and women want a man like this. And like, we are these godly men. And it's just very like, oh, yeah. You can see how all these evangelicals could go for a guy like Trump who is against all of their ideals and values, but is the strong man who could give a shit and will step on you if you get in his way. And that really speaks to them because, like, that's how the leadership has been in white evangelical culture for a lot of decades now.

John Dehlin [00:22:11] And he would yell, yell at his, you know, at his parishioners. There was even an episode, you know, content warning, where he told the women in the congregation to, like, if in effect, to give their husbands blowjobs.

Holly Laurent [00:22:28] Yeah. And to be hot.

John Dehlin [00:22:30] To be hot.

Holly Laurent [00:22:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:31] And that. That's what a good Christian woman should do.

Holly Laurent [00:22:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:34] Which, I mean, I don't know, but

Holly Laurent [00:22:36] I Mean, honest to God, it blew

John Dehlin [00:22:38] me away that he would do that. Right.

Holly Laurent [00:22:40] Yeah, yeah. And telling men like, this is what women want and stuff, and it's like, excuse me, it's. And what blew my mind is that I found it interesting because Christianity Today was founded by Billy Graham. Right.

John Dehlin [00:22:55] Oh, I didn't know that.

Holly Laurent [00:22:56] Who.

John Dehlin [00:22:57] I'm Mormon. We don't know anything about anyone else.

Holly Laurent [00:22:59] Basically, we are guilty of the exact same thing in evangelical culture. We just know that all y' all are, like, getting it wrong.

John Dehlin [00:23:07] We're cults. And you guys are all cool because you're not cultish at all.

Holly Laurent [00:23:11] And that's what I was wondering about Christianity Today or ct as I think they're sometimes, you know, abbreviating it. And I'm like, oh, I wonder if that's just a little bit of a, like, branding image, kind of, like, change or whatever. And I could tell the people who were doing the mic, who were producing the rise and fall of Mars Hill, they were like, it's very important to us as Christians to not brush things under the rug and to let you know toxic and abusive behavior go unchecked. And, you know, we're trying to get it right and everything. And I was, like, a little suspicious of them at first, and then I was like, no, maybe it is badass, you know, but basically what happened is that the church, like, spontaneously combusted in a massive, like, explosion after becoming massive

John Dehlin [00:23:57] and all these satellites. And like, he was. He was like. He was preaching it like. Like Kingsbury Hall. Not Kingsbury, like, where the Queen of England.

Holly Laurent [00:24:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:08] And the Beatles performed like, he was all over. He was global. Yeah.

Holly Laurent [00:24:12] He's a big name.

John Dehlin [00:24:13] Yeah.

Holly Laurent [00:24:13] And then it fant. Exploded and the whole church ended. And I just figured that he, you know, would.

John Dehlin [00:24:21] I thought it was going to be sexual scandal. Okay. Keep.

Holly Laurent [00:24:24] Right, Right.

John Dehlin [00:24:24] Yeah.

Holly Laurent [00:24:25] But I thought he would just sort of recede into, like, you know, tail between your legs land. But I just heard that he's.

John Dehlin [00:24:31] He's back.

Holly Laurent [00:24:32] He's a pastor of a church now.

Religion, Power, and Women in Comedy

John Dehlin [00:24:33] Yeah. Yeah. What a crazy world. And I guess all I'm saying is, like, you know, you're looking at your dad, you're thinking about how much power he had. Religions are set up based on patriarchal charisma.

Holly Laurent [00:24:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:52] Like, every single one.

Holly Laurent [00:24:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:54] And it's just almost always too much power and it's almost always too dangerous to rely on patriarchal charisma as the foundation of your movement.

Holly Laurent [00:25:03] Yeah, Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:04] I say as the male leader of a male run podcast.

Jenn Kamp [00:25:08] Right.

Holly Laurent [00:25:08] Right, right. It's interesting that my parents used the parenting curriculum and books of James Dobson.

John Dehlin [00:25:17] Do you know James Dobson Focus on the Family?

Holly Laurent [00:25:19] Who. Yeah. Who would say things very much into gender roles and like, women are like this and men are like this and women need to very much, like, stay at home and be, you know, mothers and like, there something. I just was reading James Dobson thing of like, men are like. Men want to be on the field, you know, in the game or whatever. And women want to be like, lazily watching from the sidelines and stuff and like, wait, what are you? And always was hard for me. I. I caught a lot of shit growing up in the church because I just naturally had such a strong will and I always wanted to push back on stuff and I really didn't like my relegation as female.

Jenn Kamp [00:26:02] It.

Holly Laurent [00:26:03] I really, from the beginning was like. And I would, like, I would. When I noticed power, I would try to like, power up it with it instead of, like, cower from it.

John Dehlin [00:26:11] But if women do that, they're accused of being too aggressive. So I can see why comedy could be your way.

Holly Laurent [00:26:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:17] To. To have to empower yourself.

Holly Laurent [00:26:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:19] Maybe it's not trying to project that.

Holly Laurent [00:26:21] No, it was my sneaky way, I think without even really being conscious of it. I think it was my sneaky way of. Because. Because truly, like when you have the mic or when you're on that stage, when you were in the moment, like, in comedy, you're the one who has the power in the room.

John Dehlin [00:26:35] Yeah.

Holly Laurent [00:26:35] And. And that also was incredibly intoxicating to me. It was great at Second City with like, different, you know, you'd get like, I was telling you, the late night shows oftentimes had a lot of drunk people. Sometimes they get belligerent. We're getting heckled or whatever. And it was so fun to be like, oh, like, I welcome you to heckling because I will destroy you.

John Dehlin [00:26:57] That's material.

Holly Laurent [00:26:58] I'm the one who has the power up here. I do this every single day. And you're intoxicated and my mind is clear. And. And I loved it. I loved the moments with that of like. Because I think I was so irritated my whole life. It was like a pee under the mattress for me. Always this thing of like, I don't like this. This. This box I've been put in.

Jenn Kamp [00:27:22] This.

Holly Laurent [00:27:23] This femininity and the, and the role and the expectations. I don't like that. I don't. I don't want that. And yeah, that's an interesting insight that comedy was a sneaky way, because it's interesting because there's a real common refrain of, like, women aren't funny. Women aren't funny. And my whole life in comedy, anytime I've, like, I've gone to do, you know, the Chicago Women's Funny Fest, and so I get interviewed by WBEZ about, like, oh, the show you're doing for the comedy festival or whatever. Okay, so this is a women's festival. What do you think about, you know, the, the women aren't funny.

John Dehlin [00:27:56] Oh, my gosh.

Holly Laurent [00:27:56] You know, and I mean, I answered that question. I answered that question so many times. No, I just am like, it's.

John Dehlin [00:28:06] Have they not heard of Lucille Ball or Carol Burnett or freaking. I know so many amazing, legendary female comics.

Holly Laurent [00:28:14] Yeah. And I got so. And, and even, like, doing women's festivals and stuff. I would always be like, I don't know if I even want to do the women's festival, because, like, like, yeah, I don't want to be relegated to, like, give the girls their little thing, because would we have a men's festival? You know, we just recently had, like, International Women's Day, and so everyone's posting and whatever, and I was like, it just sort of, like, bugged me all day. It was like a little. It's like a little splinter in my finger. I'm like, why don't I like International Women's Day? I'm like a raging feminist, but I'm like, yeah, I'll give the girls a day, you know, like, what? I'm like, I. Not only. I mean, I, I, I. It really, I really struggle. But I started to realize that the thing that is underneath the women aren't funny sentiment is that it's coming from men and that it is very uncomfortable when a woman does make you laugh. That woman is now, like, in control.

John Dehlin [00:29:10] It's power.

Holly Laurent [00:29:11] It's power. It is. And they don't like that. And so all they have to do is say women aren't funny. I don't find them funny at all.

John Dehlin [00:29:17] Yeah.

Holly Laurent [00:29:18] And also, I think, I think sometimes if you view women as sexual objects, you really struggle with them. Like, being outside of that role, being a different role in your, in your view of, like. Because what, what always happens is, like, what's happening here with us. We're. We're talking and listening to each other, and we learn. Every time I shut up and listen, I learn something. I almost learn something when I'm talking. And so when you're listening to a comic, like, you'll learn something. And I don't Think there are a lot of men who don't want to hear it from a woman, you know, but, I mean, some of the funniest people in the world are women. It's just. It doesn't even make any sense. No, that would be like, you know, it's. It's also like, you throw like a girl, you run like a girl. Whatever. I was just talking about this, but do you know Jen Hatmaker? She's. She was kind of well known in the Christian community, and then, like, kind of came out against Trump, and the evangelicals attacked her, and then she went through a really painful divorce and the pandemic, and a lot of. She went from being, like, really lauded in the Christian community as an author and speaker and all this stuff to. She's still doing all those things, but she's now, like, a lot of Christian bookstores all pulled her books and stuff because she wasn't getting in line and stuff. And she just recently came on our podcast, and then we went out and had some drinks, and we were talking about. She has the same thing I have of, like, tearing up so easily. And she is a very powerful woman, and she's leading these. She. She has a whole foundation, and she's like. She's leading this organization. And, you know, she's like, I'll start crying in meetings, and I get so mad because I feel like it's undermining my power, my. Whatever, you know.

John Dehlin [00:31:10] What's her name again?

Holly Laurent [00:31:11] Jen Hatmaker.

John Dehlin [00:31:12] We'll leave a show note.

Holly Laurent [00:31:13] She's wonderful. And she and I were talking about it recently, and I was like, what do you think the crying thing is, man? Because it drives me crazy, too, because I do feel. I watch. Not you. You're kind of great. Jen and I have both been tearing up, and you're just like, okay, cool.

Jenn Kamp [00:31:30] Hold space. No big deal.

Holly Laurent [00:31:31] It's not the end of the world. But, like, a lot of times men will get visually, like, a woman starts crying, and it's like. They're just like, where's the door? You know, uncomfort with that emotion, a display of emotion like that. And. Or my fear is that then they view you as weak, you know? And Jen and I were talking about it, and I was like, what do you say? What's your thing you usually say when you start crying at a time in a meeting or whatever, that you don't want to. And she. And I can't remember what she said, but she was like, what's yours? And I was like, mine's always like, oh, I'm sorry. I didn't expect to get emotional. And I'm like, why do I say that? Why am I, A, apologizing and B, lying? That I expect to always be emotional. But I'm trying to say, like, my intention is to be very professional, and here I am, like, you know, tearing up. But we were. As we were talking about it, we were like, what if we replace and we give ourselves a. A little, like, common. Like, the thing we always go to whenever we do tear up at a time that feels inopportune to us. What if we start saying something? Like, we had a little brainstorm session. I was like, what if we start saying something along the lines of, like, oh, one moment. I don't. My. My power is really. Is really present. I don't. I. I don't want to overwhelm you one second. I love it.

Jenn Kamp [00:32:44] I'm gonna use that.

John Dehlin [00:32:49] I have a hard time crying, but I love it. For me, it's almost math. It's like, you know how, like, remember those little pressure cookers where when, like, it's hot, it goes. It starts whistling. Crying means you're hitting emotional vulnerability gold. So I love crying on Mormon stories. I love it. Oh, that's when somebody cries. I'm like, tell me more.

Holly Laurent [00:33:08] That's great.

John Dehlin [00:33:08] Let's go there.

Holly Laurent [00:33:10] Here I am. The whole time, I'm like, I hope he doesn't notice I'm tearing up. And he's like, okay, what's that about?

John Dehlin [00:33:14] Exactly.

Jenn Kamp [00:33:15] Yeah, he'll catch every time.

John Dehlin [00:33:16] Okay, so you're doing bits with your dad. You're noticing his power. Let's talk more about either comedic influences or how you start really thinking about that as a path you want to pursue as a Christian.

Saturday Night Live, Improv, and Second City

Holly Laurent [00:33:32] Yeah. So I fell in love with Saturday Night Live.

John Dehlin [00:33:38] Literally.

Holly Laurent [00:33:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:39] Like the Eddie Murphy years, the Joe Piscopo years. Like, I. I have a hard time thinking you were watching Chevy Chase in the original couple.

Holly Laurent [00:33:46] Yeah, I really came in. In the, like, Chris Rock, Will Ferrell, Sherry o'. Terry, like that generation of Dana Carvey.

John Dehlin [00:33:56] Yeah. Mike Myers.

Holly Laurent [00:33:58] Yeah, Mike Myers. That was really. And. And. And when I first started seeing it, it. The. An electricity flowed through my body where I was like, what is this? And I would record them, and I would spend all week long memorizing the. All the female parts.

John Dehlin [00:34:17] Did you say Julie Sweeney? Julie Sweeney, yes.

Holly Laurent [00:34:20] Love her. Love, love, love her. And so I would memorize it all week long. I would. Molly Shannon, you know, sniffing her pits. And, like, I'm 50. And I would. I Would, I would memorize everything. Delta Delta Delta. Can I help you help you help ya? And I would. And then I would sit at the dinner table every night. Cause it was my only audience. And I would just do all the scenes and I would do, I would do all the parts. And my family said that when I did go away to college, they all just sat at the table looking at each other and nobody had anything to say. I'd never given anyone like a moment to like, like speak for the last four years. And so I was just turning it on. I was always just like, oh yeah, I like doing it all.

John Dehlin [00:34:58] And did you do any drama? Speech and drama.

Holly Laurent [00:35:00] In high school, I had such crushing low self esteem that I wanted to try out for plays so bad. But the very dynamic of having to audition and then go look at the piece of paper and see if your name was on it. Rejected was, was so in. I mean, so deeply. Like if, if my name wasn't there, the, the wound would like. I was afraid it would kill me.

John Dehlin [00:35:23] Yeah.

Holly Laurent [00:35:24] Because I just couldn't. And so I just didn't even try. And one time somebody said, you know, are you doing it? Holly blah blah. And I, I went and did. I volunteered to do props and to set the props and to like do costumes and props just so I could be in proximity to it. And then I sat on the sideline and just watched it. And again with this electricity going through my body. And then I. Finally, when I was in college and I was studying religion, a girl in my dorm who was like, Miss Drama department came to me and was like, I think you should audition for this play I'm auditioning for. And I was like, oh, I've never auditioned for a play. And she was like, you just do it. And I did. And I got it. It was called the lion in Winter. And I know that that's Henry viii. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I played Princess Alaise, who was his mistress. The king's mistress.

John Dehlin [00:36:19] Nice.

Holly Laurent [00:36:21] And I mean. And then after that it was just over. And I walked in the day I went in to add drama as a major, the head of the drama department had to like sign the piece of paper for me to take back to the registrar to like, you know, officially have that as my major. And he said to me, he was like, well, with this degree and 50 cents, you can get yourself a cup of coffee. And I was like, how dare you, sir? I'm gonna tell this story when I'm sitting on Letterman's couch. Didn't get to Letterman's Couch.

John Dehlin [00:36:51] James Corden's not bad.

Holly Laurent [00:36:51] But I did get to James Corden even though I was an audience plant. Doing that better. Yeah, it's better than me on the couch, right yet. No, I'm just kidding. Exactly, exactly. But so.

John Dehlin [00:37:03] Because you're part of the act.

Holly Laurent [00:37:05] Yeah, exactly. Which was really great. Which was really, really great.

John Dehlin [00:37:08] Yeah.

Holly Laurent [00:37:09] So I. And so then I knew that everyone I loved from Saturday Night Live had all kind of come from Second City. Second City, Toronto. Second City, Chicago.

John Dehlin [00:37:23] Oh, that's right. There's a Canada version here.

Holly Laurent [00:37:25] Yeah. Because it's all.

John Dehlin [00:37:26] Because Dan Aykroyd was Canadian for sure.

Jenn Kamp [00:37:29] And.

Holly Laurent [00:37:29] Oh, what's her name? From Schitt's Creek. The most amazing. What's her name? She's incredible.

John Dehlin [00:37:36] Oh, the Alexi.

Holly Laurent [00:37:41] I'm looking at it. She's from Second City.

John Dehlin [00:37:43] Oh, Catherine. Kathleen o'. Hara. Yeah, yeah.

Holly Laurent [00:37:46] Like her. All of the, like.

John Dehlin [00:37:50] Yeah.

Holly Laurent [00:37:51] So I knew that they'd come through Second City and so I was like, second City's in Chicago. So as soon as I grow up, I'm moving to Chicago and I'm going to do. And I'm going to do everything I can to do Second City. And so then when I was in college, I.

John Dehlin [00:38:08] Do you remember when John Belushi and Chris Farrell both died separately? I know they're separate, but Chris Farley. Do you remember when John wasn't Chris Farley also sc.

Holly Laurent [00:38:17] Yeah, he was. He was Second City. He was the main stage where I worked.

John Dehlin [00:38:20] You remember Chris Farley?

Jenn Kamp [00:38:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:23] But not John Belushi.

Holly Laurent [00:38:24] No.

Jenn Kamp [00:38:24] Well, I just know Chris Farley because he looks like my brother or my brother looks like him. So I would. And he would always do impressions of him.

Holly Laurent [00:38:31] Is your brother funny?

Jenn Kamp [00:38:32] Yeah, he's totally funny.

John Dehlin [00:38:33] Yeah, it's like Richard Pryor, John Belushi, Chris Farley. Comedians sometimes die.

Holly Laurent [00:38:39] Yeah, Chris Farley. So Chris Farley was on the same stage I was on in Chicago, obviously prior. And the stage manager had VHS recordings of some of their improv sets that people never saw. And we would sit backstage and watch them and we would watch. We would be like. Oh, like in between scenes, we'd be like watching stuff backstage and then go out, do a scene, come back in or in between shows, like on double. On double show week on two show nights. And there was this one we used to watch where Farley got so hammered and came out on stage and was trying to improvise and was so hammered he was that the audience started like booing him eventually and like booed him off Stage and we're like, oh, it was a. You know, the signs were there, you know, like, he cries for help and stuff. But yeah, yeah. And so once I declared drama as a major, I got this new. So I had to take these acting classes. And there was a new. A cool new young, hip acting teacher at my. At my little Christian college. And he had just studied with Paul Sills in this, like, summer course. Paul Sills is one of the, like, founding fathers of. Of improvisation. Viola Spolin and like early like theater games. That was originally used for like as back as. As like exercises for creating theater. But like Paul Sills and some of these other people started. And Del Close, who was the father of like the, the improv house I come from and the tradition that I come from, where they started saying, no, improvisation can actually be the craft and not an exercise to create the craft or an exercise, you know, to. So I got this new acting teacher and he had just been studying with Paul Sills and he came back, back to school in the fall and was like, we're gonna do improv. And he implemented this improvisation course for my acting degree. And I was like, oh, no. I was so scared because with improv, when you're acting, you're on book. It's. It's the screenwriter's words and you're just the, you know, vessel. But like, with improv, every single thing that comes out of your mouth is coming from you. And I was so afraid of being judged for what I said or being found, you know, offensive or stupid or. And I think I always had this idea that improvisers were really, really smart. And I had a deep seated fear that I was not because I got this Christian education. I feel like a lot of the dualistic thinking of the church that I came from had made me somewhat of a concrete thinker. And I would like, say dumb stuff a lot and get laughs and be ashamed. But then I started to realize that that was actually what I was doing on stage. That some of my comedy voice that was coming out on stage when I was improvising, I would say things sincerely and it would get huge laughs. And I would try to like, do the math backwards to figure out like, why they laughed. And I would act like I meant what I meant it the way they took it. But I didn't like an example of this. And this is why I was so afraid and the thing I was hiding. So the thing about improv is I think, think improv is ultimately it's an amazing way to learn about Yourself. And one of the things I learned was that I think because of the tradition I come from, I have a way of seeing things kind of concretely and dualistic, us and them. You know, a really, a way of thinking that actually can kind of keep you in pain. But it also, I'll, I'll biff all the time on weird things. Like, here's an example. When I first started dating my Greg, my now husband, I was like, not in a good place. I was drinking too much. I was like, I had a really bad broken heart. Actually, I got my heart broken really badly. And I was trying. So, you know, when you first start dating someone, you're just like only putting your best foot forward. Like, look how likable and lovable I am, hiding all the fear and frailty and everything from them. And I was really in the still trying to impress him phase. And we were sitting at a stoplight in this really. We were driving in Michigan to see his. I was going to meet his grandparents and we were driving through this tiny little one horse town in Michigan and we're sitting at a stoplight and I looked at this big industrial building and it said Eagle Storage. And I was like, oh, wow. And Greg was like, what? And I was like, this must be a really unique town. And he was like, why? And I was like that so many people would have eagles that they would have an Eagle Storage. And he, he did that. And then I stopped and I was like, like. And then, and then I tried to do the math really quick and then I was like, oh, oh, oh, oh. There's not eagles in there. But if it says Eagle Storage, I'm like, oh, that's all eagles in there. And I realized that I was doing that stuff on stage all the time and getting laughs and then acting like I, that's what I meant, but it wasn't what I meant. And but when I first started improvising, I was trying so hard to do it like everyone else. And I was trying so hard to shut my, my inner weirdo up because I was so afraid of what my inner weirdo would say and that I would embarrass myself. And so, but what I started to realize the longer I did it is that when my inner weirdo accidentally spoke, it was my truest funny bone. And so when I started to let her speak, it started to become really easy and fun and being like, oh, this is my comedic voice. And not like I'm trying to do it like anyone else. Don't ask me why I'm Tearing up.

John Dehlin [00:44:21] Well, yesterday you said some beautiful things about listening, and you talked about Patrick Stewart and how, like, improv is listening. It sounds like it's listening to yourself.

Holly Laurent [00:44:31] Holly cow. Yeah, exactly, exactly. And why are you.

John Dehlin [00:44:38] Why are you getting emotional about that?

Holly Laurent [00:44:40] I think because it's helped me learn how to better override that voice of fear and shame and imposter syndrome that

John Dehlin [00:44:51] is associated often with religion.

Jenn Kamp [00:44:52] Right?

Holly Laurent [00:44:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:53] Not to make it always about religion, but.

Holly Laurent [00:44:55] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:56] But you're overriding your conditioning.

Holly Laurent [00:44:59] Right. And when I first started improvising, I was still hiding, because all I knew was to hide. And then I realized through improv that it's entirely about that vulnerability. As our divine Mother Brene Brown says, vulnerability is our most accurate measurement of courage. It's not weakness. And so the more I started being like, ooh. And then learning that, like, ooh. This is about taking risks and finding the audience's threshold and then dancing on it. Because comedy is ultimately a conversation. There's a reciprocity happening between the player and the audience. And that's what I love about my comedy podcast, Mega, is that, like, through the comedy, we're able to create commentary of, you know, the critique of white, evangelical, authoritarian, patriarchal culture. But we do it in a way that's making people laugh. So we. We were able to get away with a lot more by making it funny.

John Dehlin [00:46:02] I love it.

Holly Laurent [00:46:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:03] This is great. Love this stuff.

Holly Laurent [00:46:06] So then you'll like this. John, wait.

John Dehlin [00:46:08] Did you. Jenny, were you gonna jump in?

Jenn Kamp [00:46:09] I was just gonna say that I wrote down, like, when you said it was letting her speak, like, it was the first time that you were letting. Like you were listening to yourself.

Holly Laurent [00:46:21] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [00:46:22] And, like, finding out, like, what. Like, not the. I don't know, the layer of yourself that you've put up for everyone for. For so long, but it was the first time that you were actually listening to. Listening to what you. You brought what was inside you, what made you who you are. Like your. Your own self, your own inner. I don't know what I say. Inner knowing. I don't know what the right word is. Yeah, but. And that's where you, you know, you started to tear up again, where you just. That's where you connected to yourself. I think that's beautiful.

Holly Laurent [00:47:00] And it's where I'm. I think, learning to trust myself, because the church also turned us against our own intuition, told us that the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak. Your desires are going to be your downfall. All of that stuff. Like, so we've Been turned against ourselves and assuming. And I do have that default mode of, like, always assuming that I'm wrong. And this is very much about, like, hey, trust your gut. I. I feel like now I've had so many improv students who, like, they're always like, if I do this, will it. This? Like, how. How do I know if it. And I'm. I just always hear myself telling my improv students, like, there's only one way to find out.

Jenn Kamp [00:47:40] Will it work?

Holly Laurent [00:47:41] I don't know. Like, one way to find out, do it, and see what happens, you know? Like, and also, there's such an incredible intrinsic quality in comedy where failure is absolutely necessary. And I feel like we spend so long and so much energy trying to avoid failure. And in comedy. But, like, think about baseball. Like, if you bat.500, you're the best player in the world, right? Like, they're not all home runs. Like, we strike out a lot. And in comedy, like, that's the only way, you know, they can't all be winners. You know, like, you have to do some stinkers. You have to, like. And that's actually how you learn. And I honestly have learned more from the shows where I got up there and ate. You know, I've learned more from those shows than the ones where I was like, I feel like a rock star. You know? Like, failure is built into it. I read this great thing from Colbert who he was talking about. The phrase he uses is learning to love the bomb. Like, when you're bombing, there's so much of a scramble of, like, I'm dying up here. Oh, my God. Like, trying to, like, where's the escape hatch? Where's the brakes? You know, like, trying to, like, fix it, fix it, fix it, fix it. And when I watch Colbert really closely, I'm like, ooh. I can see in him that, like, when something starts to go poorly, a little, like, light comes on in his eyes, and he's like, ooh, this isn't going well.

Jenn Kamp [00:49:13] And he.

Holly Laurent [00:49:14] And there's something he likes about it because he stopped resisting failure and learned that, like, loving the bomb is the porthole you fly through to eventually, like, become confident and just play more freely is that you're not avoiding the. Like, you know, like, with skiing, if on the incline, you actually have to put your shins into the front of your ski boots and not the back. Like, if you're resisting the. The. The. In the decline of the. Of the hill.

John Dehlin [00:49:46] Nice skiing reference. We're in Utah.

Holly Laurent [00:49:49] You're not going to be a good Skier. Right. You have to lean into the. You think like I have to go against the slope so I don't topple over. But you actually have to go into it. And I think it's that with failure is if you're like avoiding failure.

John Dehlin [00:50:00] Yeah.

Holly Laurent [00:50:01] You can only succeed to the point at which you are also willing to fail. So you have to kind of like swing for the fences and biff it a lot. A lot. So I think that's been really good for me too. Because the stakes were high. If you failed in the church.

John Dehlin [00:50:18] It was actually.

Holly Laurent [00:50:19] It was.

John Dehlin [00:50:20] What is religion if it's not micromanaging your life so you don't sin or bomb? Think of sin as bomb. Religion is trying never to bomb.

Holly Laurent [00:50:29] Yeah, right, exactly. And the stakes are high because if you fail, you're going to hell.

John Dehlin [00:50:33] Yeah.

Holly Laurent [00:50:34] Or you're going to spirit prison.

John Dehlin [00:50:37] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [00:50:37] Good job.

Holly Laurent [00:50:38] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:50:39] Hey, she's paying attention.

Jenn Kamp [00:50:41] Listening.

Holly Laurent [00:50:42] No.

John Dehlin [00:50:42] And I don't want to derail because I love the comic stuff. But like this, this really applies to. I, I would imagine it's really hard to be a good long term comic and remain an orthodox religious believer because if, if high demand religions are about anything, it's literally about grooming you to ignore your inner voice and to obey the dictates of the high demand religion so that you become like the, the matrix. You're plugged into the matrix and you're feeding with your time and your money and your attention and your missionary work. You're obeying and paying and praying and serving the church. Well, you don't do that if you're always listening to your inner voice.

Holly Laurent [00:51:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:26] So the church wants to silence your inner voice choice. And then they want you just to always be afraid you're going to make a mistake. This is the whole shame concept we had yesterday.

Holly Laurent [00:51:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:36] So that you're always, you know, serving the church.

Holly Laurent [00:51:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:40] And it leads to a 500 billion dollar organization in our, in my church's

Holly Laurent [00:51:45] case, who doesn't have to pay taxes.

John Dehlin [00:51:47] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Plus no taxes. But if you're being a comic and you're telling me becoming a comic is learning to listen to yourself and learning how to fail and to feel comfortable with making mistakes and failure. Well, that's almost Antichrist.

Holly Laurent [00:52:06] Yeah. It's funny because you called comedy secular yesterday and I was like, oh, that's so interesting because I think it does. Like people will think like, oh, it's the Antichrist. And you know, I was taught that that's what scientists were too. Scientists are God Haters who are trying to like, turn people away from the folders and. But it's funny because when you said, you know, so I went from this, the world of spirituality to the secular world of comedy. And I was thinking about the word secular meaning not sacred, and I was like, oh, comedy is sacred to me.

John Dehlin [00:52:38] Oh, no, I just mean not churchy.

Holly Laurent [00:52:40] Yeah, totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:42] But you can be spiritual and secular, by the way. I mean, I know I'm not trying to preach to you, but yeah, I just want to make sure you understand.

Spirituality, Listening, and Lessons from Improv

Jenn Kamp [00:52:50] Well, and I think some of the most, most spiritual things you talked about yesterday were in comedy. Like you learned them or felt them or they happened because of your comedy.

Holly Laurent [00:53:01] Oh, wow. Yeah, right.

Jenn Kamp [00:53:03] Like it. So it's almost like those most spiritual experiences were with, with secular comedy, if you want to call it that.

Holly Laurent [00:53:10] Yeah, yeah.

Jenn Kamp [00:53:11] As your spiritual place.

Holly Laurent [00:53:13] Yeah, yeah. And you kind of. In the same way that you can kind of get away with more if, if you're being funny, it's sort of like a real comfort or a relief because it allows you to explore a little bit. And also, especially with improv, you have to. My improv students always ask me, how can you walk into a scene? And because especially like Chicago, long form improvisation is very character based where you are playing very distinct characters. Your physicality is different, your voice might be different, you know, whatever. And so to get into those other. For me, I like trying on other people being like, what does it feel like to like play a 70 year old man or an 11 year old boy who's like, I'm running away tonight. Get on my way, mom. You know, like, and to explore. Because you're able to explore, like on stage, I can like murder people and stuff and like play with those ideas and be like, oh, what is that? Like, what does that, you know, feel like? And it doesn't matter because it's all invisible. And I can stab someone in a scene and they can go off to the side and then come back as another character or come back as a ghost of that same character or whatever, you know, but it's a safe place to sort of explore and, but my. And try on other people's shoes. And my improv students would always ask me, like, how can you walk into a scene and immediately already like, be in the point of view of a specific person who's not you? And I thought about that for so long and I, what I came to. And this might change, but what I think about it right now is that what I tell my students is I think your character's point of view comes from, do you, the player, know what you have to say? What is you, what is your voice of what it feels like to be in the world right now? What is your commentary about the culture that you live in? What is the, what are the ways in which you are thinking critically about what is happening and, and what is relevant and what is happening in current events and all that stuff? And you take all of it and then, and so if I find that I'm playing a 45 year old like Muscle Man, I get to maybe explore ideas of like, I don't know about consent, you know, I mean, all these girls are just trying to like, you know, give me some blue balls, you know, and like try to like try on another ideology, you know. But you can see where if I'm tinkering with the idea of consent from the, the perspective of a 45 year old muscle bound dude, I'm able to get out my commentary of what I think about consent. But through his voice. You know, it's interesting because on our podcast I always have to do like these double reversal layered commentaries of what I want to say of like, what conversation I kind of want to be starting in the, in the mind of the listener, but I have to do it through the voice of my character who sees the world through a very like patriarchal, white, evangelical, like authoritarian lens. And so I have to kind of like double reverse on like what I'm saying. And I sometimes. And, and so I introduced a character to the world of the show that is my character Hallie. It's her son who's named Day. And I come on and we move my voice down a few decitones or

John Dehlin [00:56:56] wow, whatever it's called, wow.

Holly Laurent [00:56:57] And I play this, I play this boy who's like, you know, I don't know, my mom always says like that I'm always, you know, and I play my character's son, Day, who actually has all of my actual thoughts and feelings and I'm able to get them out through the voice of my character's son. And people, a lot of people have told me they're like the Day episodes are my favorite ones. And it's because I finally get to just be like direct, you know, say it. We just recently had one all about abortion where I just as Day went through every single like verse in the Bible where like, if you're looking for the Bible to be anti abortion, you're going to the wrong text because I'm going to go over the next 20 verses that come throughout the entire Bible where God is the most prolific abortionist known so far in, like, in literature. And that, like, there are verses of like, I will tear the unborn child from the women's bellies. I will like all of this stuff. And like, if. If you're looking for the Bible to be your anti abortion text, you've come to the wrong place. And, and sometimes it's really fun for me to.

Jenn Kamp [00:58:03] Yeah.

Holly Laurent [00:58:03] To be able to like, switch up and just have that direct perspective.

John Dehlin [00:58:06] But man, so like now it's, it's. Comedy means listening to yourself. It means taking risks and exploring. It means having empathy for other people and really understanding and having your own voice. That just sounds antithetical to a high demand mindset. Yeah.

Holly Laurent [00:58:27] And maybe why it was so perfect for me to start healing.

John Dehlin [00:58:29] Yeah, healing.

Holly Laurent [00:58:31] And what you're saying is so true that like, like, nobody's gonna listen to you when you're on a soapbox. Right, right. And so the tradition that I come from in the Chicago long form improv tradition is very much that if you have something to say about a person or a belief system, the most effective way to do it is to be that person to the best of your ability. And we constantly talk about, like, play it to the height of your intelligence. A lot of times when people are new improvisers, they like, do dumb stuff on stage because they think like, oh, it'll be funny. Can we get a suggestion of anything at all? Brain surgery. Brain sur.

Jenn Kamp [00:59:05] Surgery.

Holly Laurent [00:59:05] Thank you. Oh, boy. I don't know how to cut through this skull. And like, that's not funny. But we assume, like, the dummy side of it's going to be funny when truly, like, the, the best way to do it is to be like, okay, I actually, Holly, know nothing about neurosurgery, but I can. But I'm playing a person, not a plot. So I don't have to make the scene about brain surgery. I just have to be doing brain surgery in the scene and talking to my assistant who's handing me things and be like, so did you finally grow a pair and ask Rosie out or you still being a puss, you know, and just make it about something that is a relationship or make it about something like, you know why I never buy a bottle of wine that has an animal on the label? You know, I'll make it about something that I do know about. You know, but there's an interesting thing happens that ha. There's an interesting thing that happens when you play a Character who you so deeply disagree with or that you find desp. Despicable or whatever is if. When you try to play them with empathy and to the top of your intelligence and with the most sincerity, kind of like a Christopher Guest movie, you know, like best in show and all

John Dehlin [01:00:14] those movies, you know, don't forget Spinal Tap.

Holly Laurent [01:00:17] Oh, yes.

John Dehlin [01:00:18] And.

Jenn Kamp [01:00:18] And.

Holly Laurent [01:00:19] And like, they're so funny because they're playing these characters very sincerely, which is also what we try to do on our podcast. We play sincere characters who we're genuinely speaking through their voices of the way they see the world. And we're doing it with empathy and compassion for that character by being them. There's a great example I use with my improv students of way back in. I think it was like, during the election cycle of 2016, Tom Hanks was on Saturday Night Live and he played. They were doing Black Jeopardy, and Tom Hanks played a Trumper in a red Make America a Great Again hat. In this. In this. He was wearing a mega hat. And which I hate because it's so close to my podcast name. Mega. I'm like, it's an E. It's an E. But. But there's a moment where Keenan was like, kenan is playing the game show host.

John Dehlin [01:01:15] So good.

Holly Laurent [01:01:16] He's so good.

John Dehlin [01:01:17] So good.

Holly Laurent [01:01:18] All of 30 Rock smells like cannabis, by the way, because of Keenan.

John Dehlin [01:01:24] How would you know?

Holly Laurent [01:01:25] Oh, we'll get to that. So. So as the game show host, Keenan is like, Tom Hanks is playing a Trump supporter and he's playing it to the top of his intelligence and with great empathy for this person. And he. At one point, Keenan comes up and he's like, you're all right. I like you, man. And he goes to give Tom Hanks a high five. And Tom Hanks does this sort of like, backpedaling, like, fear thing. But it's so real, this little, like, fearful moment of like, oh, what a cool piece of commentary. Of. Instead of vilifying this Trump supporter and being like, two dimensional, look how dumb they are. He makes it an actual human being and shows that, like, these divisions come from a fear of otherness.

John Dehlin [01:02:14] Yeah.

Holly Laurent [01:02:14] And now you're looking at a human being instead of a hat that's like, you know, yeah, I hate this person. Or they're dumb or, like, ignorant or they're a blight or whatever. It's like, oh, that's a person who, like, there's a bunch of reasons why that person has come to have this perspective. But empathy, yeah, it's empathy. It's Empathy.

John Dehlin [01:02:35] And you're getting teary always. I'm old enough to remember Tom Hanks as a comedian because he was. He started out with a comedy like, sitcom before he was a dramatic actor.

Holly Laurent [01:02:47] Yeah, yeah, yeah. When he. When Tom Hanks was really young doing one of his first projects, I think he was filming a movie in Chicago, and he fell in love with the Second City. And he would always show up and watch the. Whenever he was done on set for whatever he was filming, he would show up at Second City and watch the improv sets as like, a really young man. And he fell in love with it. And so when I was on the main stage at Second City, Tom Hanks son Chet was graduating from Northwestern, and Tom Hanks and his wife Rita came up for Chet's graduation. And they were like. And Tom was like, let's go to Second City. And so we found out when we got to work that night, they were like, Tommy, we were all just, like, buzzing. We're like, oh, my gosh. And of course, like, you can see a lot of the audience because the stage lights coming off of us are reflecting into the house, and you can, like, see a lot. You can see pretty far back into the room. And of course, like, every single one of us was just, like, on stage performing the show, but only watching Tom Hanks watch the show the whole time. And then at the end of it, we were. They came backstage and they were so lovely, and he was just, you know, here's the thing, Tom, okay? People would come to our show that were, like, sort of, you know, TV actors that maybe were in a show you'd never heard of or whatever. They would come backstage and they would walk in as if, like, not even introducing themselves, as if, like, of course, we all know who they are, and they kind of have this air of, like, arrogance about them or whatever. And I'd be like, I actually don't know know who this person is, you know, Tom Hanks, who you can fairly say, like, everyone knows he does not behave as if that's the case. He came up to each one of us cast members, stuck his hand out and said, hi, I'm Tom. And, like, was so sincere. And I'm like, yeah, I know. And we were like, tom, will you play the set? Will you play the set? Will you play the improv set? Will you play the improv set? And he was like, ah. You know, and we talked him into it. And there was a scene where I went out on stage and I was playing this matriarchal, like, Meth head lady who sort of, like, was, like, ruled my, like, trailer park with an iron fist. And everyone was afraid of me. And I was doing a scene. I walked into a scene, and I. I initiated something. Like, I was in a trailer, and there was a handyman who had come over to fix something. My AC unit was broken or something. And I'm just standing there like. Like, mercilessly harassing him the whole time, coming on to him and, like, being sexually suggestive to him and whatever. And I. And I said something like, you know, you want to have a little fun, we better get it started because my husband's coming home soon or something like that. And all of a sudden, Tom Hanks walked into the scene and was like, honey, I'm home. And I turn around and I look and I'm like, oh, my gosh. I mean, I was so out of body. I'm just like, I'm doing a scene on Tom Hanks right now. I'm, like, watching it as I'm in it. And he comes running over, and he's like, what's going on here? And he's all mad because he can tell I'm hitting on the handyman. And he. And Tom grabs my hand and he sh. My left hand. And he shows it to the handyman. The. The, you know, my. My fellow improviser who's playing the handyman. And he goes, do you see the ring on this finger? Do you see the ring on her finger? And I'm just staring at my left hand because it's being held by Tommy Hank's hand. And I'm just looking at it, and I. As I looked at his hand holding my hand, he was shaking. And I was like, Tom, who is. Is nervous and cares and, like, wants to do well in this. And I was like, I will love him forever. Such a good person.

John Dehlin [01:06:16] And then isn't it weird to know that he and Oprah eat children's hearts out? I mean, isn't that strange?

Holly Laurent [01:06:20] I know they have a whole, like, I think, pedophile ring or something.

John Dehlin [01:06:24] Yeah, you would have never thought.

Holly Laurent [01:06:26] It's so funny reading about, like, I

John Dehlin [01:06:28] just made a dark qanon joke for those who have no idea what I just did.

Jenn Kamp [01:06:31] I have no idea what you just did.

Holly Laurent [01:06:33] That's a whole, like, we just had a sweet.

John Dehlin [01:06:35] We just had a sweet story. And then Josh said something super awkward.

Jenn Kamp [01:06:39] Is he ruining that moment?

John Dehlin [01:06:41] Okay, I was trying to be funny, but I bombed. And I'm leaning into the bomb.

Holly Laurent [01:06:46] Yeah, baby, you're doing it. See yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:49] I'm leading into my bomb. You got the joke.

Holly Laurent [01:06:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:53] You have with it?

Holly Laurent [01:06:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:54] You thought about it for a second.

Jenn Kamp [01:06:55] I just had. I'm.

John Dehlin [01:06:56] Look up QAnon. Look up Q. Q. Anon and Tom Hanks.

Jenn Kamp [01:06:59] Okay. I have so much to learn still. Sorry, guys.

Holly Laurent [01:07:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:01] It turns out Oprah and Tom Hanks and Hillary Clinton run a child pedophilia ring out of a basement of a pizza joint that actually doesn't exist. There's literally not a basement.

Jenn Kamp [01:07:13] I. I don't receive that.

John Dehlin [01:07:15] You don't receive that. Have you heard a pizza. You've heard a pizza gate?

Holly Laurent [01:07:21] What?

John Dehlin [01:07:21] The pizza gate.

Holly Laurent [01:07:22] Oh, yeah, yeah. 100. This is.

John Dehlin [01:07:25] This is a serious. Someone went to jail.

Holly Laurent [01:07:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:28] What there was. During Trump. Trump years, there was a rumor that Tom Hanks, Oprah, Hillary were all running a child sex trafficking ring out of the basement of a pizza joint in D.C. and a bunch of Trump supporters, I don't know how else to say it, believed it. And it became a worldwide belief by a bunch of. Of. And so one guy in North Carolina or wherever got so upset about this that he brought a bunch of guns to the pizza joint, broke in and demanded that he be let into the basement so he could liberate all the children.

Holly Laurent [01:08:01] Oh, my God.

John Dehlin [01:08:02] And it turns out the pizza joint had no basement.

Holly Laurent [01:08:04] Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [01:08:06] Oh, my gosh.

John Dehlin [01:08:07] It's called pizza.

Jenn Kamp [01:08:08] I don't know where I was.

John Dehlin [01:08:08] There's a whole New York Times episode about this.

Jenn Kamp [01:08:10] I don't know where I was.

John Dehlin [01:08:11] It's called QAnon Pizza Game.

Jenn Kamp [01:08:12] I've heard QAnon, but I've obviously never looked it up.

John Dehlin [01:08:15] Up.

Jenn Kamp [01:08:16] Sorry, everybody.

Holly Laurent [01:08:16] Q on is pretty scary.

John Dehlin [01:08:18] It's super scary.

Holly Laurent [01:08:18] And the problem, too, is that, like,

John Dehlin [01:08:20] now we're really derailed.

Holly Laurent [01:08:21] We're these people.

Jenn Kamp [01:08:22] Got to get back to Holly Story.

John Dehlin [01:08:23] I know.

Holly Laurent [01:08:25] Yeah, it's. It's. But that's actually. There's a long standing. Like, there is a long history, and it's always pedophilia. Of. That's how you try to take down your opponent.

Jenn Kamp [01:08:35] Like, for. For.

Holly Laurent [01:08:36] This has been for centuries.

John Dehlin [01:08:37] I mean, Jews 2,000 years ago, like, they're.

Holly Laurent [01:08:41] They're eating baby babies.

Jenn Kamp [01:08:42] They're.

Holly Laurent [01:08:42] They're raping babies.

Jenn Kamp [01:08:43] The.

Holly Laurent [01:08:43] The pedophilia thing is always like, the thing.

Jenn Kamp [01:08:45] The.

Holly Laurent [01:08:46] The conspiracy thing that. That is, like, intentionally, like, circulated to try to destroy your opponent. And, yeah, like, it's old as. It's old as time.

John Dehlin [01:08:57] Really quickly. I just had to make one last connection as you're talking about playing your character to the highest level of intelligence. That reminds me of the concept of Steel Manning. Your opponent's argument instead of Straw Manning. Have you heard of Steel man versus Straw? Strawman is making up a stupid argument as if it's your opponent's argument and then knocking it down as if you've actually accomplished something.

Holly Laurent [01:09:21] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:09:22] When all you did was really misrepresent your opponent and try to make them look dumb, which is insulting. Steel Manning is a technique, and I learned this from Sam Harris and Jordan Peterson. It's where you do your best to represent the best argument your opponent would make and as a technique of dialogue. And that's. It sounds like that's what you were saying.

Holly Laurent [01:09:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:09:44] Steel Manning versus Straw Manning, which is.

Holly Laurent [01:09:46] Doesn't it just feel so much more dignified?

John Dehlin [01:09:48] That's what Tom Hanks was doing.

Holly Laurent [01:09:50] Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [01:09:51] Fear is a way better thing than, like, stupid stupidity or Right. Or bigotry, even.

Holly Laurent [01:09:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:09:55] Fear is a way better way to characterize your opponent than bigotry.

Holly Laurent [01:09:59] Right. And to humanize them.

John Dehlin [01:10:00] Right. Yeah.

Holly Laurent [01:10:01] And if we can keep. If we can maintain our humanity, like, then maybe we won't have a civil war.

John Dehlin [01:10:07] Yeah, right. But no empathy. Like, so I talked about yesterday.

Holly Laurent [01:10:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:11] Empathy is what we need.

Holly Laurent [01:10:12] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:13] And comedy. It sounds like empathy is an important part of comedy, a good comedy, if

Holly Laurent [01:10:17] you have the courage to. To get vulnerable. There are a lot of players who kind of. You can tell they're hiding behind some walls or some powering up or, you know, a Persona or whatever. And. And that will work if you're really, really fun funny. It'll work. But. But otherwise, you know, your walls become extremely uninteresting to the audience.

Jenn Kamp [01:10:40] Right.

Holly Laurent [01:10:40] I mean, it's even like what you. You and I are talking about here. I'm like, oh, I shared some stuff that scared me. Oh, that's probably the good stuff, you know?

John Dehlin [01:10:47] Yeah, yeah. I've heard comedy defined as pain plus time. I'm sure you've heard of that.

Holly Laurent [01:10:53] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:55] So that means that when you get emotional around comedy, I'm not surprised, because comedy is dealing with the dark stuff, stuff that a lot of people don't want to deal with.

Holly Laurent [01:11:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:04] And you just add humor as the sugar that makes the medicine go down. Right. So it's serious stuff. Not to make it too serious.

Holly Laurent [01:11:11] Yeah. And that's what I think. I. Sometimes I come to a point where I'm like, oh, wow. I live in a neighborhood in LA that is. It's like right by the Hollywood bowl, where there's this big, white, glowing cross on the hill. And I live right beneath this huge, white, glowing cross on the hill. And when I first moved there, I remember being like. And I would say stuff like, that's, like, for me to live under this big, glowing cross is like, you know, a victim of abuse, like, living under the picture of their abuser, you know? And like, and I, and, And then a few years passed and I, I learned, like, the history of, like, why that cross was there or whatever, and it, like, really stopped bothering me. And I, I. A lot of different things happened where I was like, you know what? I don't think I, I don't think I'm angry anymore. I might be out of the anger phase of grieving. My, My. The tradition I come from and, and being such a late bloomer and the way that the, that belief system, like, really set me back. I could be so much further in life if I had had the tools and, you know, all the lamenting that I do or whatever. I'll be like, I'm really not angry anymore. And I'll get so, like, full of glee about that and patting myself on the back of like, oh, talking to a friend. You're still angry. I'm not angry anymore. And then the next thing I know, a year will go by and I'm just, like, enraged again. And I'm like, oh, healing's not linear.

John Dehlin [01:12:37] But we relate so much to what you just said. That is such a post Mormon experience.

Holly Laurent [01:12:43] Yeah. Where you'll, you'll come into times where you're like, wow, I can actually be grateful for coming from this. I can be grateful for what it's taught me. I can be grateful for the way it's, like, enriched and fertilized my soil. And now I can grow from what I've learned from this and all this stuff. And then other times just like, why,

John Dehlin [01:13:01] you know, or burn it the F down. Right.

The MEGA Podcast and Satirizing Megachurch Culture

Holly Laurent [01:13:03] Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And I, I have to be really careful because we, I was telling you, we do a, A Patreon podcast midweek where we play ourselves and we deconstruct the. Where we are just being ourselves, talking as ourselves, deconstructing a lot of the points of view and issues and things that came up in that week's episode. What, what the point of view of what some of the stuff our characters were saying is we, We. We have a Patreon podcast where we deconstruct it all as ourselves. And it, it really has become. I'm like, oh, this is the podcast I want to make, because this is my favorite thing is, is the, the process of learning from that point of view and sort of synthesizing it and, and understanding. Because the more you can understand what is fueling a dynamic and keeping a thing alive inside of you, the more you can understand what feeds that that thing, the more you can kind of like cut off its blood source and sort of dissipate some of its power over you. You know, is there a.

John Dehlin [01:14:08] Like, is there a. I hate to say this, is there like a John de Lynn of evangelical Christianity podcasting? Is there, is there a podcast that's all about leaving evangelical Christianity, or are there a thousand of them?

Holly Laurent [01:14:20] Like, well, there's definitely Bart Campolo's Humanize Me where he really seeks to help people who feel lost and isolated and alone and without community and meaning and purpose and all the things that when they, when they are no longer a person of faith and they feel very adrift, he very much looks to minister to those people. And also his big thing is to provide community and ritual for those people who still miss it and also to help people keep finding the things they have in common with their loved ones who are still in the faith. Like, what are the ways in which we can still do our best to be in relationships with them.

John Dehlin [01:15:03] Yeah, that's good.

Holly Laurent [01:15:04] And remember, like, there's a lot we have in common. There's a lot we love about each other. It's so painful, the differences that we now have in terms of being a faith based person and being a person who is no longer a person of faith or a faith based person versus an evidence based person or. And he does so much with that, of trying to help people sort of reconcile that and not throw the baby out with the bathwater and all that. I'd say him. I mean, I love Bart.

John Dehlin [01:15:32] Yeah, we've had him on Mormon stories and we can put a link to that as well. But Bart's great. We love Bart too.

Holly Laurent [01:15:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:15:39] And then I'm just wondering if there's like anyone who does criticism and analysis of evangelical Christianity from a kind of an ex member point of view, and there might be a gazillion, like, I don't know, know.

Holly Laurent [01:15:50] Yeah. Well, now there's like the exvangelical podcast. There's. I've. I've been noticing there's sort of a new movement showing up in social media, like on Instagram and stuff. There are Tik Tok and Tik Tok of, of your friendly heretics and your, like, people who are now becoming more outspoken. And it's really interesting to watch this. I'm like, whoa. If I was, if there was. Was the Internet when I was, you know, in that dualistic thinking and I could. I think about what's his name there. There's a standup set that I saw recently where I was like, if I had seen this standup set when I was a teenager, it would have changed my life because he, he starts talking about, you know, the God as the magic, you know, can provide anything. And it's this whole really funny set about like, like space pancakes or something. And I'm like, man, if I had heard a, A. A satirizing of my belief system and been like, oh, wait, we're allowed to, like, think about it a different way.

John Dehlin [01:17:00] So you never heard of Monty Python's Life of Brian?

Holly Laurent [01:17:03] Not when I was little, I don't think. I don't think I was allowed to.

John Dehlin [01:17:06] Yeah.

Holly Laurent [01:17:07] It's funny. I remember early on going to see a George Carlin show.

John Dehlin [01:17:10] Yeah.

Holly Laurent [01:17:11] And I remember being very frightened. Frightened of him. And not only because is he like. But I remember being very frightened because I'm like, I don't know. I, I am definitely not allowed to be hearing these ideas.

John Dehlin [01:17:23] Yeah. Because he was kind of atheist and,

Holly Laurent [01:17:26] and very outspoken about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Go ahead.

John Dehlin [01:17:31] Okay. So, I mean, this is just so fun. I feel, this feels really self indulgent. I'm just like, I want to have a cool conversation wherever it goes. Usually I'm like, what's the chronology? And now I'm just like, having fun. Will you forgive me, viewers? Will you forgive me? I'm just having fun.

Holly Laurent [01:17:48] I can talk about comedy and improv all day long and you'll like this. So Saturday Night Live comes every so often when they're about to begin casting a new cast for the upcoming season. And so they come a lot in the summer to Second City City. And, you know, it will. It'll always be like, everyone calls it, like, Get Famous Night. It's Get Famous Night show. And, and then, you know.

John Dehlin [01:18:17] Does Lorne Michaels come? No.

Jenn Kamp [01:18:19] Often.

John Dehlin [01:18:20] His people?

Holly Laurent [01:18:20] Some, but sometimes it's his people.

John Dehlin [01:18:22] Okay.

Holly Laurent [01:18:22] Yeah. And. But a lot of times it would be Seth. Seth Myers would always be there and was always so kind and lovely and, and, and then you would wait to hear, and then you'd be like, oh, did you hear?

John Dehlin [01:18:37] So you've tried out. You. You've sort of auditioned for Saturday Night Live.

Holly Laurent [01:18:41] Yeah, well, they, You. They come to the show and everyone's all at Twitter. And then, like, and then you wait and hear, and it's like, oh, did you hear, like, Mike got a fly out? Oh, Katie got a fly out. And it's when you get contacted and that they're flying you out, putting you up, and you're going to go audition on that spot on the second or on the Saturday Night Live stage where, like, the guest host does the monologue every week. Like, on the. That spot, you get up and you have your five minutes and you have to do characters and all original material. And so the year.

Jenn Kamp [01:19:14] The.

Holly Laurent [01:19:14] The year they came out, when I was on stage, I got the fly out, and my. And my husband Greg had had the fly out the year earlier, and, and, and, and wasn't cast. And then I got the fly out, and I mean, I was so out of body, John. I couldn't. I was like, like, I mean.

John Dehlin [01:19:31] So you stood on that stage?

Holly Laurent [01:19:32] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [01:19:33] Whoa.

Holly Laurent [01:19:34] Absolutely. Myself.

John Dehlin [01:19:36] That's where Steve Martin did King Tut, man.

Holly Laurent [01:19:40] Oh, you will love this. I've done a show with. With Martin Short where, like. Because. Because Martin Short did Second City, and he'll come back and do little.

John Dehlin [01:19:51] He's probably Canadian. Second City.

Holly Laurent [01:19:52] Yeah, he's Canadian. And. But he'll come back and we would do shows. He'd be like, ah, okay, we're gonna do some classic old archival Second City scenes. And then we're gonna do that. And then. And we would just do sketch shows, like, for, like, hotel ballrooms of rich people who were just like, you know. And Martin would get up there and be like, okay, everybody, your presence in this room means you're doing really well in life. My presence in this room means I'm not, like, I'm here to just, like, get some of your money.

John Dehlin [01:20:19] And that's so good.

Holly Laurent [01:20:21] And he also is lovely, lovely, lovely. But, yeah, so it was very intense. And I. I mean, I. I was. I was honestly shaking like a leaf when I went. And you get there and they put you up at the club quarters right across from 30 Rock, and then they tell you, like, a producer is going to call you at this time. It'll be between these hours, and then you'll be called to set. And, like, it's all just so. It was so surreal because teenage me, who had been doing all the scenes at the. At the dinner table for my family, me, I'm like, now this is the real thing. And so I was. I mean, my ears were ringing. I was like, I. I'm walking through the halls at 30 Rock. Just, like, they put me in someone's dressing room. And it was off season, so I first immediately just went through everything in the, in the dressing room to see like, what all their stuff was. I was like, oh, what do they drink? And then you sit in this dressing room waiting. At any moment a PA can come up and be like, are you ready? And so I'm just in there, just like, I'm like, how do I. I was so nervous. I. It was really intense. And so the PA came and got me, took me down. I'm walking like it's all 30 racks, so tiny and old. And like all the hallways are really small and. And like kind of grimy. And you kind of come onto what is the floor where the audience sits during the show. And you can see some of those shots where they're sitting when they, when the bit. When the TV cameras pan, you know. But there were all these like, like bleacher things there because it wasn't set up for an audience. And I'm coming through all these, like, underneath all these bleachers. And they were like, stand right here. And. And then when that cameraman, like calls you down to him, walk down to him. And I was like, okay. And I'm standing there and I'm just like, stop shaking, stop shaking. To breathe deeply. Breathe into your belly. And then I looked in this. It's like this tall guy standing at those big ass TV cameras. And he waved for me to come down to him. And I went down to him and he was like, are you Holly? And I was like, yeah. And he's like, all right, Holly, you got about a minute. And then you're going to go up and I'm going to. As soon as you see this light come on on my camera, just do it straight to me. And he was like, I'm sure you're probably nervous. He's like, I'm sure you're probably nervous. But I just want you to know I'm so excited to watch you and I'm gonna be cheering for you the whole time. And I threw myself into his arms. I was so touched that he, in that moment, like, what human kindness meant to me in that moment is I threw myself into his arms and I hugged him.

Jenn Kamp [01:23:04] That's so cute.

John Dehlin [01:23:05] Cause he could have just been like, next, next. You know what I mean?

Jenn Kamp [01:23:08] Yeah.

Holly Laurent [01:23:08] He been like, stand right here. I'll let you know when to go look for the red light. Do it into this camera. Okay. But he went out of his way to be like, I'm sure you're freaking out, like. But, man, he's like, I'm gonna laugh. It's gonna be great. So I got up there, and truly, I mean, I'm standing on the. It was so surreal. I couldn't. I. I. I did my whole thing. They were like, thank you so much.

John Dehlin [01:23:29] Do you remember your. Do you remember your bit, Your piece or whatever?

Holly Laurent [01:23:33] Yeah, I mean, I did. I probably did, like, I don't know, know six or eight different characters in. In, like, five minutes. I did a bunch of. But you write each of the bits, too, you know, so it's all your original material. And so I was trying to. Like, I was doing. I think I remember doing the. The William and Kate had just had a baby at the time, and so I did one character that was that baby that was like, all right, my mom trying to tell me and, like. And then trying to, like, do commentary on, like, the stuff with, you know, the United States and Britain and all through the voice of, like, the new baby prince or whatever. I did. I did. I'm. But I'm not great with impressions, like, with actual celebrity impressions. And. And so I didn't do a lot of impressions, but I walked off that stage and a bunch of my friends were there. We were all auditioning at the same time, and we went out that night, and I mean, we all just started, like, drinking our faces off because we were like, just must slow down my robot. I need to slow my robot down. Because I'm like. We were all just like. Because it was just, you know, everything in your life leads to this one moment.

John Dehlin [01:24:46] And was that your dream for many, many years, to end up on snl?

Holly Laurent [01:24:50] I mean, yeah, for sure. But also, I think it would have eaten me alive, you know, like, I would have done it, but I wonder what it would have done to me as a highly sensitive person and all of that. And it's a really, really tough environment for everyone and especially for women. And my best friend Katie ended up six months later getting hired. We all thought like, oh, we didn't get it. We didn't get the call. Six months later, my best friend Katie got the call from Seth, and he was like, do you want to come write for Update? And we're like, oh, my gosh, that's almost the most perfect job there, because Update is always fantastic. It's just hard joke writing, and you really can't even start till Wednesday of each week. Or the.

John Dehlin [01:25:39] The old jokes are old.

Holly Laurent [01:25:40] Yeah, yeah. I mean, but. But then even on Saturday, like, things are changing in the news, and you're having to rewrite, like, oh, you know, developments and stuff. And so she did that for, like, six or seven years and.

John Dehlin [01:25:52] Really?

Holly Laurent [01:25:52] Yeah. And so I would always go out and, like, sit, you know, backstage and go to. Go to shows and stuff, and it was really fun.

John Dehlin [01:25:59] How fun?

Holly Laurent [01:26:00] Yeah, it was really fun.

John Dehlin [01:26:01] Okay, so some of the. At least one of the people that you worked with ended up making it.

Holly Laurent [01:26:06] Oh, a bunch of mine did. I was on the stage with Timmy Robinson. Who? Timmy Robinson.

Jenn Kamp [01:26:11] Got it.

Holly Laurent [01:26:11] Then he was a cast member for one year, and then he was a writer for a long, long time. Do you know him? He has that sketch show on Netflix now called I Think youk should leave. 80 Bryant. 80 Bryant. Got it that year. Maybe the year before I got the Fly out. Cecily Strong was the understudy for the current, like, main stage show we were in, and Cecily got it. Yeah. So, so, so, so many. It's. It's. It's really great.

John Dehlin [01:26:42] So did it kind of break your heart when you. When you kind of. That. That. That opportunity came and went, even though you're saying you think it would have broke you? Was there some depression or some coping?

Holly Laurent [01:26:53] Oh, for sure.

John Dehlin [01:26:55] Yeah.

Holly Laurent [01:26:55] But I also, the hardest thing for me was, like, no feedback. Like, I just was like, I would love to know, were they like, ugh, that broad sucks. Or were they like, oh, wow, that was really good. But she's too similar to someone's, so, you know, it can be the grid of what they're. Of what and why and who and how. Like, I just would love to know what it was that, you know, wasn't. Or was it just like, oh, she's not ready yet. Let's watch her for a few more years. Because I know they do that too, you know, but, yeah, of course, now with some distance, I'm like, oh, yeah, it's probably. It's probably best. But it also just makes me have to fight that much harder to hustle and make stuff happen. Because if I'd gotten that, that I would be getting jobs pretty easily for the rest of my life. Now I still just have to, like, hustle to get these jobs or, like, with my podcast, just to create work and make it myself. And again, what a privilege. Like, even on the days where I consider my podcast like a slog, like, oh, my gosh, I have to go. Do I gotta edit this? Like, I have to spend the next four hours in this edit, and I gotta figure out.

John Dehlin [01:28:06] You do your own edits.

Holly Laurent [01:28:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:28:08] What the.

Holly Laurent [01:28:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:28:09] Use Audacity. What do you use?

Holly Laurent [01:28:11] Yeah, but I, because we, we, we break a lot and so I, I just go in and like take out all the laughter if, if. And I want everything to hit so if I'm like, this section isn't funny, I just cut it. So I do we. It's really editorial. I mean it's completely improvised. But like, if, if a section feels like it's dragging, I take it out. I'm just like, it's got to be all killer, no filler.

Jenn Kamp [01:28:33] But like,

Holly Laurent [01:28:36] yeah, of, of, of. And, and now we're really trying to grow it because I'm like, we're not going to do this forever. And I really believe in this project. So we're really trying to grow it. And as you know, it's so hard to build it from scratch and now the podcast space is so saturated. We got, we got into it like five years too late in terms of being able to easily, you know, garner a if. So but I believe that if, if my podcast got out to people, like people would really, really be into it because so much of America has been raised with in the church. And again like I, I was setting out to just. I wanted to make people laugh, but I accidentally hit this other group of people who contact us and are always like, this is so healing for me. It's been so therapeutic to laugh. I have other people tell me like, you know what? I've only been listening to the Minis lately because I'm actually mad right now and I can't laugh, I don't want to laugh. So I only listen to the Minis. And then when I'm in a better mood or whatever, I'll go back and start laughing at the Megas, you know,

John Dehlin [01:29:40] but that's so great.

Holly Laurent [01:29:41] But we're like, we're not going to do this forever and I really want to give it the biggest shot to reach a bigger audience. So now we're doing all this stuff of like Twitch streams and like it has really become a full time job. And even when I'm.

John Dehlin [01:29:56] You're Twitch streaming your recording sessions.

Holly Laurent [01:30:00] We're now doing one episode recording per month of All4 because it comes out every Sunday. Now we're doing one of every four is going to be. You can watch live us record an original episode and like improvise right before your very eyes and so you can watch it. And I think people find it interesting because then you can kind of see how the sausage is made. They can see like us just sit and talk to our eyes. Guest first. Like Cecily Strong came on, and she was like, I wish we had this one on film. This is before we started filming them. But when Cecily came on, she was like, I'm actually really, really nervous because I didn't grow up in the church, and I have almost zero understanding of this world, the lingo, blah, blah. And we were like, don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. Like, we'll cover all the language and we'll make. And we'll, like. We'll just keep, like, teeing you up, and you can then just, like, knock them out of the park, and it will make it sound like you, you know, are familiar with the world. What she ended up picking is she played a character who was kind of this, like, crazy drunk who had been in prison. And someone from our church's prison ministry kept visiting her in prison and telling her about. About Jesus. So as soon as she got out of prison, she heard that she could get free meals at our church. And so she was just coming for the free food, and she based the character on. She's like, have you ever seen that thing on YouTube where there's a pastor at a church who's, like, handing the mic around for people's testimonies? And this one lady takes the mic, and she's like, I was so low. And she's telling her story, and she's like, I got so low. I was. And before the pastor could grab the mic, she said, and I should say this. I'm about to say something naughty. What do I say?

John Dehlin [01:31:42] Yeah, no, it's good. Just do it.

Holly Laurent [01:31:43] Content warning. If you're driving in your car with kids in the backseat. And she showed. And Cecily showed us this YouTube clip of. Of this woman giving her testimony. And she goes, I was so low before I found Jesus. I was sucking dick. And the. And the. And the preacher, the pastor starts, like, lunging for the mic, and he grabs it from her, and she holds onto it, and she's pulling it back towards her mouth, and she goes, I was licking balls. And before he can, like, pull it away from her. And we laughed so hard. And Cecily's like, can I do this character? And we were like, absolutely. And so she kept doing that stuff as we were improvising with her character. And it was so funny because from the point of view of our characters, like, scrambling when someone starts talking like that, you know, like on our megachurch podcast, podcast that my husband Greg, his character Gray, just kept being like, you know, if I can, I'm just Gonna say a word of prayer right now, Lord, if you. You know. And he would just, like, start trying to instruct her character through his prayers. You know, how do Mormons do that? Where sometimes people will pray in a way that they're actually instructing you with the prayer. They're telling God something. But in a way to, like, that's

John Dehlin [01:33:00] every father priesthood blessing ever.

Jenn Kamp [01:33:02] Right.

John Dehlin [01:33:03] It's basically the Mormon man. Man gets to tell the wife or the kids what he wants them to do.

Jenn Kamp [01:33:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:33:07] In God's voice, right?

Jenn Kamp [01:33:08] Yeah, yeah. Patriarchal blessings.

Holly Laurent [01:33:10] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, we.

John Dehlin [01:33:14] We're really. You guys have a lot of fun.

Holly Laurent [01:33:16] Yeah. Oh, we. We. We do have a lot of fun. And.

Jenn Kamp [01:33:19] And I have an idea for you.

Holly Laurent [01:33:20] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [01:33:21] I think you should have characters play Mormon missionaries and then you guys be your megachurch.

John Dehlin [01:33:28] Oh, yeah. Like. Like missionaries. Missionaries knock on the door of the

Jenn Kamp [01:33:32] megachurch of the megachurch, and you're talking to them.

Holly Laurent [01:33:34] Do you know any ex Mormon comedians?

John Dehlin [01:33:38] Yeah, yeah. Alan Mount runs Marriage on a Tightrope.

Jenn Kamp [01:33:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:33:41] He literally performs at the improv, the sports, whatever. And. Yeah. And Cara Burrell is a really funny comedian. There's several.

Holly Laurent [01:33:49] That'd be so fun.

Jenn Kamp [01:33:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:33:50] Alamount. I'm out. We just. You just got an invite to an improv.

Jenn Kamp [01:33:54] That would be so good.

Holly Laurent [01:33:55] But would he be playing a Mormon who's currently Mormon?

John Dehlin [01:33:58] He could do that. Yeah.

Holly Laurent [01:33:59] That would be fun. Because our.

John Dehlin [01:34:02] He's been a mystery. He's an improv guy.

Holly Laurent [01:34:04] It would be so fun because our characters would then be trying to constantly tell him why he's wrong, convert him. And he could be trying to convert us. And that's my idea. It's a conversion off Alan Carroll.

John Dehlin [01:34:15] Jen just got you a gig, Alan.

Jenn Kamp [01:34:16] All right.

John Dehlin [01:34:18] You need more Mormon content, but you do have Mormon content.

Holly Laurent [01:34:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:34:22] You have.

Jenn Kamp [01:34:22] Modest is hottest.

John Dehlin [01:34:23] Is hottest.

Jenn Kamp [01:34:24] Kind of the hottest.

Holly Laurent [01:34:25] It's an episode from maybe a year ago with Anatasha Blakely, who grew up here in Salt Lake and grew up Mormon. And when she was my improv student in la, we became friends, and she was still had. Never had a cup of coffee, never had a sip of booze, never had a smoke, never, you know, anything with a boy. Nothing. And, yeah, we became friends, and she got out of Mormonism pretty quick. Like, comedy saved her pretty fast. And she was so funny on that episode. You know what's funny about Anna?

John Dehlin [01:35:01] It's about honor code, office stuff and byu, basically. But it's not byu, but it's.

Holly Laurent [01:35:05] But that's the character she played. On, on mega.

John Dehlin [01:35:08] And I was include a link to that.

Holly Laurent [01:35:11] It's so good. That is the only mega episode ever. And I was like, I'm taking all the credit for how good Anatasha is because I was her teacher. But it's the only episode ever that didn't have one single edit. Oh, the whole thing from beginning to end.

John Dehlin [01:35:29] I was like, our church is true.

Holly Laurent [01:35:31] Yeah, baby, you just won. That's right.

Jenn Kamp [01:35:36] We know our role.

Holly Laurent [01:35:37] He connects with the ball every single time you send it out of the park.

John Dehlin [01:35:41] Okay, so really quick, tell me all the famous people you met at Second City. Did you ever meet Julia Louis Dreyfus? Her son went to Northwestern and any other cool famous people, I would kill to meet her.

Holly Laurent [01:35:53] You know what was a big one for me? Paul Simon. He, one summer when I was on main stage at Second City. And he's a big one for me. Like, I, he's a baller. I think Rhythm of the Saints or Graceland might be my like Desert island record. And I really, he, he has just meant a lot to me through the years. And anyway, we, we got to work one night and it was like, guess who's on the rail? The rail were like the good seats, you know, and, and I, I, I think I did like dribble in my, in my pants a little bit when they said it was Paul Simon. And I immediately called Greg and I was like, greg, you got to come to the show tonight. You got to come to the show tonight because Paul Sim. It was summertime and Paul Simon was doing a thing with his son where they were going to every big city that summer and going to that city's baseball team.

John Dehlin [01:36:35] Oh, fun.

Holly Laurent [01:36:36] So they had come to Chicago to go to a Cubs game and then.

John Dehlin [01:36:39] Not White Sox, Cubs.

Holly Laurent [01:36:41] It was Cubs. And, and he brought his son to, to a show and so he came backstage afterwards and I, I have, I can show you later a couple pictures that I have with him where I was even taking like pictures of his shoes because I was like diamonds on the soles of his shoes. And, and the best part was he was lovely. But we were like, hey, would you play the set? And we had the, this shitty out of tune guitar backstage in the green room. And we're like, we have a guitar. And he was like, all right, I'm game. Whoa. And he went out and sat on a stool with this terrible beat up old out of tune guitar. And we were like, what if we do a follow the follower thing where you just improvise? We were like, are you Comfortable improvising musically. And he was like, yeah. And we were like, okay, you improvise musically. And then we will improvise off of what your music inspires. And then you can then improvise some music off of what our scene inspires. And then we'll just kind of keep going in that Ouroboros, you know, like, snake eating its tail thing. And so he got out there and started just noodling on this guitar with one of the coolest, like, original, like, just improvised tunes I've ever heard. And a few players, like, walked out and started and started a scene and he kind of underscored it. And then our. Our stage manager did a light pole to signify like a new scene. And when the new scene started, Paul started morphing what he had just been playing into the sound of silence.

John Dehlin [01:38:24] Whoa.

Holly Laurent [01:38:25] And he was just playing the sound of silence on this guitar. And two of my castmates walked out and had the wherewithal and the wisdom. Wisdom to do a silent scene. And I just watched it from the side. I think I have a video I can show you too. I watched it from the side where I was like, this is one of the most profoundly cool things I've ever, ever experienced. And then it's interesting because when we moved to la, we got a gig, you know, on npr. When Garrison Keiller used to do Prairie Home Companion, I was always a big fan of that. My comedy friends would make fun of me. They'd be like, it's so corny. You're so dumb.

John Dehlin [01:39:10] And I. Northwestern Christian humor, kind of.

Holly Laurent [01:39:13] Right, yeah, right. And it was so.

John Dehlin [01:39:14] Sorry. Midwestern. Midwestern Christian humor.

Holly Laurent [01:39:17] Yeah, yeah. And I, I found it comforting if I was driving or whatever. It felt like old time radio, where you're swept away into this other place and you can see it all. And I always liked it. And when, like, I saw the last show ever at the Hollywood bowl where Garrison was like, conducting the audience in like acapella, like hymns and songs. And it was really powerful and beautiful. And my husband and I then pitched to. When it got taken over by Chris Thiele, who then did Live From Here. And it was still a live music and variety show on npr. We pitched out to like, create their sketch. So we. And we got hired and we started working. Greg and I got to work together and tour with the Live From Here, the new iteration of Perio Companion. And so every single weekend we would be in a different city, in a different venue, doing this variety show. And every single weekend there would be a New, like, two new, like, guest musicians. Like, amazing. I was like, ben Folds is this weekend. Sarah Bareilles is on the show this weekend. It was like, every single weekend. It was new, like, like absolute heroes of ours from, like, Ben Fold. I mean, so it's been. It's been everyone you can think of. I mean, so. So many lovely, amazing Jim Gaffigan we got to do. Do it with. Jake Gillenthal came on. What's his name? Who was the guy who's not Jim Carrey in Dumb and Dumber. What's his name? Name.

John Dehlin [01:40:46] Yeah, I know who you're talking about. Lloyd. Lloyd. No.

Holly Laurent [01:40:50] Yeah, what's his name? He came on.

Jenn Kamp [01:40:51] I can never.

Holly Laurent [01:40:52] I'm. I'm.

John Dehlin [01:40:53] But did you ever meet Al Franken?

Holly Laurent [01:40:57] No, and I would really like to.

John Dehlin [01:40:59] He's a Midwestern comedian.

Jenn Kamp [01:41:01] He sure is.

Holly Laurent [01:41:01] Minnesota, baby. And, yeah, I. I would really.

Jenn Kamp [01:41:06] Jeff Daniels.

Holly Laurent [01:41:07] Jeff Daniels.

John Dehlin [01:41:07] Thank you, love.

Jenn Kamp [01:41:08] You're welcome.

Holly Laurent [01:41:08] Yeah. Producer for the win, Jeff Daniels. So many standups. Oh, my goodness gracious. So, yeah, I have felt very, very delighted through the years to be able to meet a lot of really wonderful people who are at the top of their game, doing incredible work. And. Yeah, it. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:41:37] So when you. Why.

Holly Laurent [01:41:38] What.

John Dehlin [01:41:39] What led you to. To say, I'm Balin. I made the main stage on Second City. I've arrived. Didn't make snl. Yeah, we're going to la. What was the. What was the thing that.

Holly Laurent [01:41:51] I felt like I was bumping my head on the ceiling in Chicago in terms of, like, what there was left to pursue.

John Dehlin [01:41:56] How long were you, like, main stage, if that's the right term. Three years.

Jenn Kamp [01:41:59] Yeah.

Holly Laurent [01:42:00] I wrote three original reviews, and, I mean, I would have stayed forever. I want to stay forever. But you don't get.

John Dehlin [01:42:08] It's not enough to make a living. Or is it?

Holly Laurent [01:42:10] It is. Which is amazing to be able to make a living and have insurance from doing live comedy. It's the dream, you know? And so that's another reason why it was so hard for me to leave. But also, it's. It's just not sustainable. It's really hard to. On your relationships. That was three years of never being able to go to a wedding, be at somebody's birthday, nothing. You only have Mondays off. And it was hard on my marriage because, like, I wouldn't see my husband all week long, and then just on Mondays, my only day off, I would be like, everything has to be perfect. The meal has to be good and the movie has to be funny, and we have to be laughing all the time. And if anything goes wrong, I'd just be like, I'll see you again next week. That sucked. You know, and it was just too. It's. It's just not sustainable. It's not a. You. It's really hard and on your relationships and stuff and you can't really be a real person. And honestly, like, you do get some weird depression setting in because your, Your body changes so much from when you are working at, like, on, on. On the weekends. Our late shows and then improv sets would go well into like midnight. We'd be finishing around like 1am and then have a drink backstage. And you're like, just finishing work in the wee hours of the morning. And because you've been standing under stage lights till the wee hours of the morning at massive wattage, it's releasing serotonin into your body because. Because you're. That much light in your eyes is telling your brain that it's high noon. And so you're. You're not switching from serotonin to melatonin to be able to go to sleep. And so, you know, my husband would always be like, well, just come straight home and be in bed by two. And I'd be like, I can't just like, go from like. Like, I'm working really intensely to like, fall asleep. You know, I would like, come home and have dinner at 2am and then sit there and be like, I gotta unwind and watch some Seinfeld and see, you know, know. And then I'm falling asleep at 4am, getting up at 10 or 11. Everyone else is working during the day and I. And you end up feeling really isolated. There's a weird isolation to the rhythm. And a lot of my standup friends say the same thing. Like, when you're on the road, you're so alone and you're really isolated.

John Dehlin [01:44:24] I imagine SNL can be even worse, right?

Holly Laurent [01:44:27] So it's yeah, yeah, yeah, and, and, and. And cutthroat and, and so demanding. And they have one overnight every week where you, you. Tuesday nights, you work all night long into the next day and work all day that day. Like, it's just.

John Dehlin [01:44:41] Yeah, it's just inhumane.

Holly Laurent [01:44:43] Yeah, it's bananas.

John Dehlin [01:44:44] It's like working for Mormon stories.

Jenn Kamp [01:44:45] I know. It's crazy.

Holly Laurent [01:44:48] It's a grind.

John Dehlin [01:44:50] So. Yeah. Okay, so after three years. After three years, you were just.

Holly Laurent [01:44:55] Yeah. And my husband Greg had, You know, he was taking one for the team for a long time, like, allowing me. Me to. To live, not allowing me. But, you know, like, he, he was I was living my dream and he was willing to do whatever to accommodate that and to be cool about it.

John Dehlin [01:45:15] He was less living his dream.

Holly Laurent [01:45:17] Right, right. And. But he had been hustling and hustling and hustling and hustling, and he had sold a few things. He sold. He sold a half hour comedy to Comedy Central. He had started selling things and going out to la. So, like, while I was still on the main stage at Second City, he would be in LA for like months at a time, like shooting and trying to sell. He sold a script and then he sold a pilot and he got to shoot the pilot. And so we weren't together as much anymore. And after I had done two shows, it looked like Greg maybe was gonna need to move to LA for work. And I remember going to him tearfully and being like, I really want you to keep your ball rolling. And I deeply feel like I'm not done with the work I want to do on the main stage and the stuff I want to say. Like, I have another show in me that I want to write, and I'll write it knowing it's my last one and I'll be able to do it from start to finish and run it for a year knowing that this is my last one and I can say goodbye to it, you know? And I was always haunted by this thing where when Colbert had come back for the 50 year second city reunion and we did all this archival material and Colbert and Carell were, you know, doing their old scenes they wrote together at Second City and stuff, and it was really great.

John Dehlin [01:46:40] Wait, Colbert and Carell were at Second City?

Holly Laurent [01:46:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:46:44] Oh, I didn't. Yeah, Remember that? Wow.

Holly Laurent [01:46:46] And there are old archival scenes that they're both in that are. Lights out, man. So cool. And my friend, one of my best friends, Shelly, who was on the main stage at the time, during the 50th, told me one day that when she was sitting with Colbert backstage, they were doing this big reunion show and they. She was in one of his scenes or sketches or something, and she was talking to Colbert and at the time he was doing the Colbert Report and which to all of us comedy kids, we were like, he's living the dream. He has his own show satire on Comedy Central. He actually is, like, creating cool commentary of. Of our dualistic society.

John Dehlin [01:47:26] And when he interviews guests, he's doing improv to. To make jokes in response to those interviews, right? Yeah, yeah.

Holly Laurent [01:47:32] And so we're like, he's living the dream. And she said that when she was talking to Him. He was like. When she was just getting to know him, he told her. He was like, this job is the dream. He's like, I'm not kidding you. He's like. He's like, you know, the, the. The being able to, like, show up and do it with your friends and write all your own material, and the, the way you get to play here and have improv sets every night live with a. With a room full of people who you've already, like, warmed them up with your, like, perfectly polished sketch show, and so now they think you're hilarious. So now you get to come out and improvise and they're going to be on your side for everything and think you're hilarious. And it's the warmest, greatest room. And he was like, second City is the. It's. It's the best there ever is. And so when I was like, gearing up to leave, I kept hearing those words and I'm like, what do you do when you just had the thing? Like, do I just kill myself now?

John Dehlin [01:48:32] Yeah, it's all downhill.

Holly Laurent [01:48:33] Like, how do you find. How do you find the next thing? And I honestly feel a deep amount of gratitude that, honestly, that I found my podcast Mega because. Because it. It a. It. It saved our asses in the pandemic. We lost everything. The Live From Here show was canceled. All of our improv theaters closed, like, permanently. Like, we. We lost everything. All the gigs that we had in line, everything canceled. We just watched our calendar cancel and then nothing ever come back. And we were like, we're in trouble.

John Dehlin [01:49:06] Is that after moving LA or before?

Holly Laurent [01:49:08] Yeah, okay. And we. And when the pandemic hit, we were like, whoa. We used to always, like, just have our comedy friends over to sit around our kitchen table. And we were recording Mega like that. And it was just the side thing we were doing for fun, like, because we both were, like, traveling with the radio show and everything else, doing a lot of other stuff. And then when the pandemic hit, we had to. Had to figure out how to do it remotely, how to still have guests on without being able to see each other, and had to figure out the equipment and all that stuff. And we sort of pivoted and the. I think our podcast, like, kind of became a new iteration of itself in the pandemic. And. And it saved us, which was really great. Which was really, really great. And I really want to sell it for tv because I'm like, this is a Christopher Guest style comedy, and this could be something like the Officer Community or Parks And Rec, where it's just a workplace comedy, but it's. The colorful backdrop is a megachurch, and you can do all this commentary with really funny ensemble. Cat past.

Moving to Los Angeles and Starting Over

John Dehlin [01:50:07] So did Unrighteous Gemstones bum you out?

Jenn Kamp [01:50:10] It.

Holly Laurent [01:50:11] It hurt us really bad when we were actually taking.

John Dehlin [01:50:14] You know what it's called?

Holly Laurent [01:50:16] Righteous Johnson. Yeah. When we were first taking Mega out and trying to find someone, like, a champion for it, like somebody who kind of caught the vision and. And was like, yeah, yeah, I. And. And Righteous Gemstones dinged us pretty hard at first because everyone was like, well, there's Righteous Gemstones now, so it's been done.

John Dehlin [01:50:35] Yeah.

Holly Laurent [01:50:35] And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. Would you say that Weeds is the same as Breaking Bad? Like, those are two, like a parent who starts selling drugs to save their family. And those two shows couldn't be further from each other, but the pitch would sound identical. But, like, Righteous Gemstones is a big, slick, almost, like, heisty, and it's also a little bit more televangelist, and it's all about. It's a lot more like, you know, know, action. And it's big and broad, and it's really slick. It's really expensive. This would look more like the office or, like Parks and.

John Dehlin [01:51:08] I get it. I get it.

Holly Laurent [01:51:09] It would be a small ensemble, like, workplace comedy, but if we could just pack every single page with hard, hard, hard jokes and just make it the funniest thing in the world. But so far, at first, when we started taking it out as a TV idea, like, everyone in Hollywood looked at us like, we don't want to offend. There's so many, like, church people in America. We don't want to offend. And we're like, you don't get it. We're not. The podcast is not. We're not making fun of them. We're not, like, I am not interested in. In punching down. Like, I'm not interested. I'm not making fun of human beings who believe stuff. I'm punching up at the power structure that hurts people and that, you know, is authoritarian and.

John Dehlin [01:51:54] Right. It's always the church that spoils religion. Religion. You know what I mean? Like, every single church, every Christian that I know and respect, if it's just, you know, there's just like, oh, it's just about those simple things Jesus said and love people and be kind and. Who has a problem with that? Literally, no one.

Holly Laurent [01:52:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:52:14] No atheist I know has any problem with the Christian that's preaching love. It's the church that always screwed things up. So Margi and I just started watching Abbott elementary, which is. Have you. Have you heard about that?

Holly Laurent [01:52:25] Yeah, I haven't seen it, though.

John Dehlin [01:52:26] Yeah, it's. It's just. It's. It's office, but a inner city elementary school. So it's the teachers making jokes back and forth about each other. Yeah, I think that would be beautiful. You could even be respectful of religion.

Holly Laurent [01:52:40] Right.

John Dehlin [01:52:41] But just at the bad part, you're only taking potshots at the harmful parts.

Holly Laurent [01:52:45] Exactly. Of church, not the people. I mean, you humanize the people. It's like if you look at best in show.

John Dehlin [01:52:51] Yeah.

Holly Laurent [01:52:51] Like you. I wouldn't say it's making fun of the people who do dog shows. It's making fun of dog shows.

John Dehlin [01:52:59] Right.

Holly Laurent [01:53:00] And the people who do dog shows are the best part.

John Dehlin [01:53:03] Yeah.

Holly Laurent [01:53:03] And they become humans to us, and we love them. And so it would be the same with mega. And I'm. I'm really kind of chomping at the bit on it right now of like, really trying to sell it for tv, because I'm like, if I don't, somebody else is going to, and then I'll be so mad and sad.

John Dehlin [01:53:20] Well, the thing is, also. So you've probably heard about the Pew foundation, the rise of the nuns. Yeah, yeah. Like that market share. I. I know lots of TV executives in LA are watching Mormon stories that that market is growing. The market of people who used to be in an evangelical church but now aren't. That's also growing. So, I mean, jump on the bandwagon or get left behind.

Holly Laurent [01:53:44] And it seems that people, younger people who are into the church now, now are. Are forging new movements of a potentially, you know, I don't know of like, it's like when Christians tell me they love my podcast and I'm like, what do you love about it? And. And they're like, there might be a, like, healthy thing emerging of like, it's good to laugh at yourself. Like, we should be able to laugh at ourselves. If we can't laugh at ourselves, then. Then what is this? You know, like.

John Dehlin [01:54:17] Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah, totally fun. Okay, so three years, things got too swamped. Your husband got some great opportunities and you decide to make that switch to la. Yeah, that's kind of giving up. Well, it's living your dream and then kind of giving up your dream and

Holly Laurent [01:54:37] starting over in a new town and like, moving from being a big fish in a small pond to being being a minnow in the ocean.

John Dehlin [01:54:43] Insignificant fish in a massive pond.

Holly Laurent [01:54:45] And man, it was just incredibly humbling and so hard. And that first year, it was really, really, really hard. I mean, LA will. It'll show you what you're made of. And wow, it was so hard and. But one foot in front of the other, one day at a time. The beautiful part about it is that I think LA can be an incredibly isolating place. But I already had like a built in Chicago community. So many of my generation of like comedy kids all moved to la. Everyone went to New York or la. So like, I had a really soft landing and there was community already there. And Chicago people love each other and we, you know, try to cast each other and stuff and help each other out. And so, you know, so I had, I had Community and I started there. There was. I had been. I came up at I.O. chicago and there was a smaller I.O. hollywood. Hollywood. And so I started teaching at I.O. hollywood. And so then. And started doing shows there. And my improv group, the Reckoning, who had been doing like years and years of shows in Chicago, all kind of. Or half of us moved out. So we just kept doing shows in, in la. You know, not making money. You just show up at this like, grimy little comedy club and just do improv shows as many nights a week as you can for free. You know, in fact, you're out, out 20 bucks probably every time you go do a show because you, you buy a drink and you have to pay for parking and, you know, so like going broke doing comedy in la. But it helped us meet new people and, and find the wonderful things about the city and make connections. And then, and then we, then we got on the NPR radio show Live from Here, and then we were doing it. We were able to do comedy for a radio variety show. And then through that we, we met so many. Now we have this like, rich wealth of friends that are all musicians. And now we're trying to do some pilot shows in LA right now, live shows called the New American Variety show, where we're. Because we've become really tight with the Nickel Creek people and the Watkins Siblings, Watkins Family Hour, who play a lot of music. And Greg is in a comedy show at Largo, which is also a music venue. And so we've met so many incredible music musicians. And so we're like, okay, how can we kind of like put all these worlds together and still do a. What we want to do is create a show that's kind of like the Muppets show, where there's like a drama happening backstage in a really funny way that Kind of bleeds out into the room and you start to not know and. But then you have like musical guests and you'll have like polished scenes and stuff. But then you'll also have a bleeding of like, where the, you know, what's, what's real and what's not. Greg has a bit that he was doing in the last one where he was like, I need somebody to come up here. And he picks this guy in the audience who's, who's walking, who, who has like, like broken both of his legs and is walking on crushes. And it takes him like five minutes to get to the stage. When he gets up there, the bit is like 10 seconds long. And he's like, thank you, sir. And he's like. And that's like five minutes all the way back and things are happening simultaneously of like what's real and what's not. It's a plant, you know, but so we're kind of like, what's next in that? Because I really, it's harder and harder, especially like pandemic wise. But I really, really have like, my greatest love is the live stuff and I'd love to sell something for tv and I would love to.

John Dehlin [01:58:17] I want mega. I want mega, the TV series. Yeah, that's what I'm shooting. Yeah, that's what I'm wanting for you. Yeah, that's what I'm putting out there into the universe.

Holly Laurent [01:58:24] Thanks, John. Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [01:58:26] Manifest.

Holly Laurent [01:58:27] Yeah. So, I mean, who knows, who knows where it's going? But now I love LA because I love my friends and I might not have any money, but like I'm rich in the way I want to be rich, which is like I, I'm so wealthy and friends and I as such, I feel like, so grateful to have such incredible people in my life who, who are. We're all kind of having similar conversations and able to just, just affirm and support the ever living out of each other, you know, it's really, it's really great. And, and you know, sometimes it is like, whoa, how long can we make it work here, man? And, and do we even want to be here? Because it is a really hard place to live. But so far, so far, so good.

John Dehlin [01:59:12] How many years ago did mega start?

Holly Laurent [01:59:15] 18. 20. 18.

John Dehlin [01:59:18] So five. No, two.

Holly Laurent [01:59:20] Four years ago. Yeah, we're in our fourth year.

John Dehlin [01:59:23] Okay.

Holly Laurent [01:59:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:59:24] So. So let's shift, if it's all right, let's shift now into Mega. You've already talked about it a bunch but like, I want to geek out about it a bit. So just to maybe we've already talked about this. To blow your mind. I started Mormon stories podcast in 2005.

Holly Laurent [01:59:41] Amazing.

John Dehlin [01:59:42] So like, I literally don't know of a podcast that's been around longer than Mormon Stories.

Holly Laurent [01:59:47] Me neither.

John Dehlin [01:59:47] But I've grown up, up completely isolated from the entire podcasting world. So I've got 1600 episodes. But I've, but I've never once had a sponsor. I've never once sold a product. There's no network. It's just me and my donors and this in internal ex Mormon world. So I'm just, you know, and I, you know, everybody's like chopping it up in less than an hour and I'm like six hour interviews because I feel like it, it's just totally like, I love it.

Holly Laurent [02:00:23] John. When I first heard of Mormon Stories and I went and looked and saw how many episodes you have, I almost like fell off the roof. I was like, and what I love about your podcast is every single episode is so specific. You're drilling down on like such interesting nuance of everything that spins out from this one thing. Thing of religious trauma or whatever. Yeah, it's really, really.

John Dehlin [02:00:47] I just like to go deep. I just always have. So it's just, it's so self indulgent. The whole thing is just like, what do I want to know? What do I want to hear? You know what I mean? So it's fun. Anyway, yeah, so I'm curious how other podcasts, I don't even know how other podcasts work. Like the fact that there are networks or that you can get paid for this. If I didn't have donors, we wouldn't exist. So anyway, so let's go back just for a second. And you're like, you're in LA and you. So the idea, how does the idea of doing mega in a podcast even start?

Launching and Growing the MEGA Podcast

Holly Laurent [02:01:17] I just started getting this urge where I was like, I want to do a podcast. I want to do a podcast.

John Dehlin [02:01:21] I think I had started four years ago.

Holly Laurent [02:01:23] Yeah, maybe, maybe probably five years ago before. Because I, I think it was when I started getting into really listening to podcasts and I just started to be like, I want to do that, I want to do that. I want to do that also. So I think there's something I really like about podcasting. As a female who just refuses to die, which means I'm aging. And I feel like our culture is so cruel, especially to females who age, that I love in podcasting. I can be ageless. It doesn't matter what I look like and what I. How old I am, you know, like. And I, there's something I really, really like about that I hate.

John Dehlin [02:02:08] I'm just gonna say it. I talked to. You should meet Kara Santa Maria, by the way.

Holly Laurent [02:02:13] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:02:13] Because she's a podcaster in la, really smart, successful woman and she told me the same thing. She's like, she's on the Skeptics Skeptics Guide to the Universe podcast. She's ex Mormon, she's secular, she's science loving, she's a woman. And she's like, I'm like, why don't you guys do. Do video? And she's like, well, in, in Hollywood, if you're a woman and you're more than 30, nobody wants you. And I'm like, F that 100. But, but I hate that. I freaking hate. It's like the whole Renee Zellweger, Meg Ryan, like, you have to like, what is wrong with our culture?

Holly Laurent [02:02:47] I know.

John Dehlin [02:02:49] 50 year old women are gorgeous without any work done. Like, what are we thinking? Gray hair is awesome. Like wrinkles don't matter better.

Holly Laurent [02:02:55] And I know what is, I know,

John Dehlin [02:02:58] I'm sorry, I'm sorry. On behalf of the human race and the Hollywood industry, I'm sorry.

Holly Laurent [02:03:04] That really honestly means so much to me because it is a, it is, it's a deep cut that, that we get from culture. I mean it is, it's extremely painful. And I, I sometimes I'll just like, I'll realize what's bothering me if I listen to what I'm joking about. About. And I heard myself just say some dumb like improvised joke where I was like, oh, you know, age old, age old. Question of what would you rather have the ability to fly or be invisible? Like, well, if you're a woman, all you got to do is wait till 40 and you got, you got one out of the two dreams, you know, and it's, I've been thinking about that a lot lately, John, like transform. The transformation into an older person is, has been so painful to me and, and so fearful, you know, of like, because, because then that worth and value stuff comes up and yeah, I remember sitting in therapy and my therapist being like, man, I've got the ideal job because as a woman, as a therapist, the older I get, the better that is for my business. Because I'm more. Why, you know, I have more experience, whatever. Whereas like for, for females, like in entertainment. Oh wow. It's so, it's so painful and hard and like I, I had an agent for the first few years I was in LA who Dropped me. Because they were like, you're in the dead zone. Like, when you're, when you're Betty White come back, but you're in the dead zone, where it's like the Julia Louis Dreyfus. There's a Amy Schumer Schumer. Have you ever seen that Amy Schumer sketch where it's Amy Schumer, Patricia Arquette, Julia Lewis Dreyfus, somebody else? And they're all, like, celebrating the day they all became unfuckable. Like, there's a day on the calendar where you go from this to this, you know, And I'm like, look at all of those people. I'm like, I would have sex with every single one of those women.

John Dehlin [02:05:09] Like, I can't say that, but I may or may not be. Have thought that.

Holly Laurent [02:05:13] But, but, like, but they're, you know, they're trying to just make fun of it, to be like, isn't that funny that, like, you get with the turn of a page of a calendar, like, you went from being, you know, and it goes to all those things of, like, what are the ways in which we value women? And whatever. And I've lamented it a lot. Like, I really absorbed the narrative as a young girl. I absorbed and absorbed the narrative that my value carries, came from and was only validated through male attention for my appearance and trying to live up to all those expectations. And it's tyrannical, man. It's tyrannical. Yeah. So, yeah, but it's part of why I love podcasting, too, because I'm like, oh, it doesn't matter what I look like, and I don't have to worry about, like, losing jobs because of my age or appearance or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:06:03] All right. So anyway, you're. Five years ago, you listen to podcasts,

Holly Laurent [02:06:07] and I was like, I really.

John Dehlin [02:06:08] And then all of a sudden. And then all of a sudden, there's a glare, so. And then all of a sudden, you get the idea for Mega, or how does that work?

Holly Laurent [02:06:18] I didn't get the idea for Mega. I, I, I got, I got the, the meeting to pitch to a network. Network, Podcasting network. And I was really excited, and I came up with all these ideas, and I really wanted to do something about, like, improv and comedy. And I had my page of, like,

John Dehlin [02:06:37] oh, like, Mark Marin, like, a podcast about. A satire podcast about comedy.

Holly Laurent [02:06:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:06:43] Or.

Holly Laurent [02:06:45] Or a podcast where we would improvise and then, like, break it down and then talk about improv and be able to, like, take suggestions and, like, you

John Dehlin [02:06:53] know, and that's kind of nerdy.

Holly Laurent [02:06:56] Yeah, totally nerdy. And in their insider baseball. And so I walked into the pitch, like, going to lead with my most favorite idea that I think is going to knock their socks off.

John Dehlin [02:07:07] You're pitching. So this is where. I don't know anything. You're pitching a podcast to someone who takes podcast pitches? I don't even know what is that.

Holly Laurent [02:07:16] I guess there's, like, podcast networks where. So basically all it did for us was, was provide. So do you have to have an

John Dehlin [02:07:23] agent to make a pitch to a podcast network?

Jenn Kamp [02:07:26] No.

Holly Laurent [02:07:26] Greg had met these guys. Greg had pitched. Greg had pitched to this podcast network and had been talking to them a little bit, and I was like, hey, can you. Can I get their information? Can I, like, try to get a meeting? And so I did.

John Dehlin [02:07:38] And you're like, I worked for sctv, you know, whatever.

Holly Laurent [02:07:41] And, yeah, I've been like, I've been on a radio comedy tour and all this, and I'm interested in starting a podcast. And so I. I met with these three white guys and. And I gave them all my favorite ideas of what I wanted to do. And I could tell they were all just, like, looking at their watches, and I was like, oh, no. You can feel like nothing's gaining traction, nothing's sticking. And Greg had always. When I was brainstorming everything I wanted to do in podcasting, Greg was always like, you should do a podcast about a megachurch because of all the time you spent at Willow. Like, you know that world. You speak the language. He's like, holly, you're. You're. The joke you always throw around is that you're bilingual, you speak English, and you speak evangelical. And he's like, do something with that bilinguality. Is that a word? And I was like, no, I don't want to do anything about a mega church. I don't want to think about that place. I don't want it already.

Jenn Kamp [02:08:34] It.

Holly Laurent [02:08:34] It robbed too much of my life. I. I don't want to, you know, I was like, no, no, no, no, know. And he was like, well, specificity in comedy is gold. And the specificity of the evangelical lingo and language and vernacular and everything is so specific. It's like. It's like a Christopher Guest thing of, like, the specificity of dog show culture, the specificity of. Of, you know, acapella culture or whatever. Like, it's so specific that it's. It's like, it's really. It makes it fun and easy for comedy, and because it's already, like a colorful world. And so he kept saying, he's like, you're. You're bilingual, you speak evangelical. Do it. And I was like, no. And so I'm sitting in this meeting pitching to these guys, and I can tell that they're all looking at their watches and yawning. And I'm like, damn it, pivot. What can I do? And I was like, or I have this idea about a mega church.

John Dehlin [02:09:29] That's where improv comes in handy because you're improvising, improving in your podcast pitch. Yeah, right.

Holly Laurent [02:09:35] Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I was like, I have this idea. And I kind of threw it out. And all of them sat up and they were like, wait, say more about that. And all of a sudden it gained traction and they were like, yeah, we're interested in that one. That sounds funny. Like, go away. Write the show Bible. Bring it back to us. And I was like, okay, okay. And I overthought it and overdid it, and I spent like three months trying to create the show Bible, which was like, kind of like laying out and. And laying out the world of the show, you know, like, okay, what will the church be called? And I was like, looking up all these different mega churches. Willow Creek, Saddleback, Mars Hill. I'm like, okay, it has to have this cool, non churchy sounding name, you know? And I ended up calling it Twin Hills because between you and me and the lamp post, I was like, eh, it'll be funny. It'll be like, boobs. I'll be like, we'll call it Twin Hills Community Church. And the way I'll remember Twin Hills is that it'll be boobs, you know? And then on our logo, we can kind of make it like it's these two hills, but we put crosses on the top of each hill and it looks like. It looks like boobs.

John Dehlin [02:10:44] And your show is all about double entendre or whatever. What's the word?

Holly Laurent [02:10:49] Yeah, that's it.

John Dehlin [02:10:50] Dual meaning. And yeah, sexual innuendo, I guess. Right? That's a big part of it.

Holly Laurent [02:10:55] There's some of that in there. We try. Greg's always like, I don't want this to always be. We don't want sex humor and stuff. So. Yeah, right, I know, but you can't control improv. That's where it's going. You got to say yes.

John Dehlin [02:11:09] And.

Holly Laurent [02:11:11] But. So I overthought it and I was just like, okay. And. But. But having worked at a megachurch, I knew that, like, okay, so there has to be a cool name for the Singles ministry and the high school ministry and the prison ministry and the whatever. So I sat and I was like, oh, what would be a funny name for a high school ministry? I'm like, oh, yeah, Climax. Like, because it's just like, yeah, are you coming to Climax this weekend, kids? Yeah, you know, like. And so I kind of created the whole world of like, here's it, here's what it is, and whatever. And then I was like to Greg, just because I trust him so much, and it would be so easy to do it with him because we can. We kind of have an emotional or a comedic shorthand with each other. I was like, will you be my first guest? And on it. And we'll just pilot it. And all the network basically does is they provided me with like a producer and an editor who would come and set up the mics and do all the recording. And so all we had to do was sit down at the mics and start playing. And then, you know, they would edit it and all that stuff and they would, like, you know, post it to the stream and they handled the. The that side of. Of it. And so we didn't have to pay for that, which was great. And. And then, you know, we would split anything if we had ads or whatever. And we were with this little tiny network called Campfire. And then we had actually moved from Campfire to a new network in LA that was like a better known comedy podcast network. And then the pandemic hit. And then.

John Dehlin [02:12:48] So do they give you like a down payment when you strike a deal? Do they like, pay you per episode? Do they pay you per hour?

Holly Laurent [02:12:55] No, we don't get paid at all. They just provide the, like, you know, hosting it and putting it into the feed and giving us someone who had the recording equipment and would edit it. And so we. What we have now eventually done is we've gone completely independent. Now we're like, you know, but when

John Dehlin [02:13:13] you do that, how do you make ends meet?

Holly Laurent [02:13:15] I know.

John Dehlin [02:13:17] So it's just. Okay. What do they get out of it? Oh, they get free content.

Holly Laurent [02:13:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:13:22] On their network.

Holly Laurent [02:13:22] Yeah, exactly. So.

John Dehlin [02:13:23] Sounds exploitative.

Holly Laurent [02:13:25] Yeah. So that's why we ended up going independent. We were like, the longer.

John Dehlin [02:13:28] Okay, so Covid hit. The second thing didn't work out.

Holly Laurent [02:13:31] Is that right from COVID And so we were like, what do we do? What do we do? And I remember having fearful moments where I was like, is this slipping away from us? Is it. Are we not gonna be able to, like, keep this alone alive? But the longer we kept it Going now we've just learned so much about how to make a podcast sustainable and how to do it ourselves. And now, you know, we're. Yeah, we're in the process of trying to grow it and I've had to educate myself and.

John Dehlin [02:13:58] And so when you. When the second thing fell through, covet hit you, is that when you went independent?

Holly Laurent [02:14:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:14:04] And so does that mean. Mean just putting a donor button up and having people donate or just going to Patreon and having people donate, or does that mean going out and trying to sell ads?

Holly Laurent [02:14:13] Yeah. So we both, we started page. We started a Patreon and then, yeah, we were trying to figure out how to get ads. We found Gumball, which is a company that can, you can help, like, for independent people, like, start putting ads on. But it's amazing. You don't have ads, right?

John Dehlin [02:14:31] Never.

Holly Laurent [02:14:31] You make very little from ad.

John Dehlin [02:14:33] I know.

Holly Laurent [02:14:33] It's almost.

John Dehlin [02:14:34] When I looked into it, I'm like the, the way that I'll turn off donors by having to sit through an ad for the amount of money I get for an ad, especially because I have a niche. I have a niche audience.

Holly Laurent [02:14:44] Yeah. Now all the ads are wanting you to do personal endorsements, and in some cases that's fine, but in other cases, I'm like, I don't personally endorse this.

John Dehlin [02:14:52] Yeah, I'm.

Holly Laurent [02:14:53] I don't think I can do a McDonald's or a gasoline commercial, you know, Like, I don't think I, you know, and so I don't know about ads, man. We're currently wondering if we're going to move the whole thing behind Patreon so that instead of. Because if we're having 10,000 downloads or 60,000 downloads, but 300 Patreon people, it's like, well, if we made the whole thing behind Patreon, like maybe, you know, instead of 300 when, you know, 10,000 people listen on, you know, every episode when it comes out, and then each episode gets upwards of 60. Like, but we have 300, you know, so we're like 300 patients? Yeah, we have 300 patrons, but 60, 000 listeners, you know, so it's like, well, if we put it all behind, how many would we lose?

John Dehlin [02:15:39] Or.

Holly Laurent [02:15:39] Or maybe we do one free one a month and then the other three are all behind. We're trying to figure it out. Like, we're just still like bobbing and weaving and.

John Dehlin [02:15:47] So how are you living in la?

Holly Laurent [02:15:49] I know how. I know.

John Dehlin [02:15:52] Like, we.

Holly Laurent [02:15:53] The podcast currently pays our rent and that's it. And then we honestly. We got an emergency PPP that has been sustaining us through the pandemic. And now that we're sort of. Now that things are sort of starting to, like, maybe have potential of filling up our calendar and working again now, it's just like hustling and trying to make the rest. It's really scary.

Jenn Kamp [02:16:20] Scary.

Holly Laurent [02:16:20] It's intense. But also, like, knowing how to be poor is kind of a superpower because you.

John Dehlin [02:16:26] Minimalism.

Holly Laurent [02:16:27] Yeah. And. And you're no longer afraid of it. You're like, oh, I know how to be poor. It's okay. Like, the sky never falls. You figure it out and, and, and then you don't have to fear it and do a bunch of. You don't want to do that. Eats your soul from the inside out just for money. You, you know, you can be like, oh, it's okay to struggle. It's okay, you know, but yeah, it's.

John Dehlin [02:16:55] You are. You are a leading with the heart artist.

Holly Laurent [02:16:59] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:17:02] Sacrificing, making sacrifices for art and integrity.

Holly Laurent [02:17:09] It's funny because I've always heard people say, like, do what you love. What are you passionate about? And if you can make that your job. Job. And I was thinking one time about the. Why is it. Why is that movie about the crucifixion? Why is it called the Passion of the Christ? Why do we call that the Passion? Oh, why do we call Easter the Passion? The Passion Play and all that stuff? And I, like, just was like, asked my phone define passion and was like, oh, passion means to suffer, like the, the. The essence of the, like, suffering thing. And I'm like, oh, so to live a passionate life for me, I guess is like, what is the thing that you're willing to suffer for? And I'm like, oh, I'm willing to suffer to do comedy. That's what I'm willing to suffer for. And that to me is a passionate life. And it's just. And it's so not easy, but it does make you tough and it does show you what you're made of. And it does end up giving you a, like a different kind of. Of confidence, I think, where. When you begin to believe in yourself, I think then you start to draw better people. And that gets really exciting to me. And though LA is very hard and I don't know how long we'll be able to make it work, I do get turned on by LA being a place where there's a lot of people doing it, and I get turned on by that of like, people come here to do It. To do the thing, whatever it is for them. And so it just feels like more shots on goal there. Even though it's hard. Hard. And I'm like, if we have more shots on goal, one of these are gonna go in, you know.

John Dehlin [02:18:42] Well, that's every. Every famous person's story ever is they didn't quit.

Holly Laurent [02:18:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:18:47] And then they instructed the hard times. Every single. I've never heard.

Holly Laurent [02:18:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:18:51] A successful person that didn't have those hard. Yeah. And you've already been super successful anyway. How many comedians would like to have already done what you did?

Jenn Kamp [02:19:00] Right.

Holly Laurent [02:19:00] Yeah. Feel. I feel, like, pinch myself lucky. And also, like, a frustration and a drive of, like, you know.

John Dehlin [02:19:08] Yeah, you should be. I don't want to. You should be doing better. If I were in your mind, I would be thinking, I should be. This should be easier.

Holly Laurent [02:19:15] 100%. And I do think that, you know,

John Dehlin [02:19:17] I've auditioned for effing Saturday Night Live. Like, I should be doing better. Yeah.

Holly Laurent [02:19:21] And.

John Dehlin [02:19:21] And I'm not trying to. I'm just saying it's hard.

Holly Laurent [02:19:24] You are saying that is the voice of my head. 100%.

John Dehlin [02:19:27] Yeah. Yeah.

Holly Laurent [02:19:27] But there was. There was a moment it. I experienced a few years ago where I heard this phrase, what if you're sitting in the shade of the tree you're looking for? And I was like, I 100% am. Like, I really love my partner. He's so good. He keeps getting better. I really love of being married to him. That in itself, if I never. If I never make another dime doing comedy or suffering to do the thing that I love, like, it's. Yeah. I. I have to acknowledge the ways in which I am sitting in the shade of the very tree I'm looking for. And it's at every level.

Jenn Kamp [02:20:24] My.

Holly Laurent [02:20:25] My friend. I have a comedy friend who I was doing improv shows with before the pandemic named Jason Manzoukas. He's a. He's a big improv and comedy guy who does a lot of TV and movies and stuff. And he's a wonderful improviser. And during the pandemic, we would meet and go on walks because we both live in the Hollywood Hills. And he's really. He's a germaphobe. And so he would be, like, double masked, 10ft apart, both in masks, outdoors, like, walking. But it was our only way of, like, you know, trying to. You remember in the lockdown thing when you were like when we pre vaccines, when we were still, like, you know, scared. And I think of Jason as having a career that is the most. Like, he's at the top of the peak. And I talk with him about comedy and he's like, oh, I'm. You know, every day I was like, what am I doing? What am I doing? What am I doing? What am I doing? And pushing himself. And everyone is looking at the people who are above them, but you don't realize where you are, that if you turned around, there are people looking up at you and being like, oh, you know, she's living in Hollywood and teaching comedy and doing these, you know, and it's like, I think I'm doing nothing. And like, what can I do? You know, and that's just. That's just the nature of it. The. The chase is the thing. And. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:21:40] And the trick is learning to just really. It's so cliche, but living in the moment and, and valuing what you have right in front of you. Yeah, it's so cliche and.

Holly Laurent [02:21:49] But the, but the confidence that you kind of get from living that way or performing or playing or operating that

Jenn Kamp [02:21:56] way,

Holly Laurent [02:21:59] I do believe it starts to draw more talent into your life. It's that thing of like, A's, higher A's and B's, higher C's, you know, like a person who kind of views themselves as a B, they're going to. Of like, higher Cs around them so that they. You know what I mean? But if you see yourself as an A, you're like, oh, I want A's. I want only A's. Like, I want. I. I don't want someone who I'm better than. I want to hire someone who's better than me who's gonna, like, you know, like, so I have to be sharp, you know, And I think. I think that's kind of a cool side effect of, of really. Of really hanging in there with that hustle. Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:22:47] I love it. I have a few friends out in LA making it or trying to make it or in the mix, and I just look at them and go, that would be. If I could, like, multiverse myself, I'd go back 20 years and go to LA. Yeah. And suffer and suffer and suffer and suffer. Cover. Yeah. It's funny.

Holly Laurent [02:23:05] I've always wanted to live. I always, until now, wanted to live in New York. And I recently, I. I was there a lot when I was on the radio tour and I realized, like, oh, you can really only go move to New York when you're in your 20s and. And it doesn't matter that you're living in a, A, A mouse Hole. And like, everything is uncomfortable and dirty and painful and challenging and hard all the time. You reach an age where you're like, oh, yeah, the only way to live in New York City is if you have a lot of money. You can't go do that. Like, you know, hustle. Yeah, it gets. Yeah, yeah, Gets really hard.

John Dehlin [02:23:38] Okay, so. So when you. So you decide. So did you start MEGA under that. That first network and then just continue it on your own?

Holly Laurent [02:23:51] Yeah, and it's funny that it was like, the one thing I didn't want to do was the. Was the podcast I ended up making speaking and, and which is, of course, always the way, you know, where I'm like, I. I don't wanna, I don't wanna, I don't wanna. Okay.

John Dehlin [02:24:09] And it's refusing the call. It's the hero's journey. Have you ever heard of the hero's Journey?

Holly Laurent [02:24:12] Oh, yeah. Joseph Campbell.

John Dehlin [02:24:13] It's like, like, like Jonah. Like, yeah. God, right, Right.

Holly Laurent [02:24:18] Knock, knock, run away. Right?

John Dehlin [02:24:22] But you feel like you were meant. I'll use air quotes for the listeners. You were meant to do mega, but you were kind of avoiding it a little bit.

Holly Laurent [02:24:30] Oh, yeah, I was like, the last thing I want to do is talk, like, think about or do anything mega church related, but.

John Dehlin [02:24:36] Or make fun of your dad and your grandparents.

Holly Laurent [02:24:38] Yeah, totally, totally. But again, we were sort of saved by the fact that the comedy tradition we come from is to be the thing you're satirizing to the. You know, and to humanize them and play to the top of your intelligence and not. And to. And to punch up at the power structures, not down at the, like, individual people who are just doing their best. And so I just asked Greg on the first one, I was like, I'm not really sure how this is going to run, how to do it, what it is. And so I asked Greg to be a guest on the first episode. And he was like, oh, we knew this other guy, Ross Kimble, who came up through comedy with. With us. And he was like, you know, Ross grew up in a megachurch and he's super funny. He might be funny too. And I was like, great, let's have him. And he. He and Greg came on the very first episode ever. And afterwards I was like. And they were just supposed to be my guests. And I was like, man, we were really humming. That was really fun. And we. We thought the first episode was really, really funny. And we were like, wow. And so I was like, do you want. Do you two want to keep going on with Me. And they were both like, sure. And then after, after like 20 or 30 episodes or so, I wasn't vibing with Ross. And I also was like, you know what? I'm not really, I don't really want to. Of all the, of all the ways I could use my platform to like, give an audience to certain voices. I don't want to give one to another, like white straight guy. And also, like, we just weren't vibing. And so I was like, Ross, I'm going to continue on with this with just Gray. And I, we. We can be more nimble. And his schedule wasn't working anyway and it was making it too hard. And so it just sort of was like a de facto way of, like the way it all shaped up was on accident that like, then Greg just became my co host. And he's so funny and so easy to play with. And then it was sort of fortuitous because, you know, then he was the only person I was with physically for a year of lockdown. And so we were able to do it together.

Jenn Kamp [02:26:37] Together.

Holly Laurent [02:26:38] And. Yeah, and so. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:26:41] So do you recommend people start with episode one and listen sequentially or.

Holly Laurent [02:26:47] No, you don't have to. You can pick up on. All of them. Are completely contained.

John Dehlin [02:26:51] Okay. Okay.

Holly Laurent [02:26:52] There are like some now running jokes where you'll sort of, if you are listening to them every week, you'll see sort of how they emerge and then how we like, you know, do callbacks through the time. But each one, they, they all can like exist solo. So sometimes like people will just like a certain guest. Like we had Jason Manzoukas on. He played the actor who was playing Jesus in the Easter drama. And he got like really shredded and wanted to. And convinced the director of the Easter drama to let him only wear a loincloth. And he was like super hot. And all the women in the congregation were like, my land. Like, I need a fan. And he, he. And this is all just improvised, but he said that in the Easter drama he had them. He got so shredded for the part that he had them make it be an 80 foot cross. And he free soloed it in a loincloth and then got up there and put himself on it so he could show his, his, his physical prowess.

John Dehlin [02:27:53] That's cool.

Holly Laurent [02:27:54] And so like there are some, some where people are just like, oh, I'm a huge Jason Manzoukas fan. So they send that one around to all their friends and, and that works too because like you, they don't have to be. They're not Cumulative in terms of it making sense. They can all fly solo.

John Dehlin [02:28:07] Okay, so really quickly, the concepts of the plot and the characters of the podcast, describe it for those who have no idea what we're talking about. You play what?

Holly Laurent [02:28:17] I play a character named Halle labant who's like a Midwestern mom, who, who really does represent the point of view that I was raised with, which is everything we've been talking about here today. Purity, culture, female, low self esteem from, you know, the Bible. My character always says, like, you know, joined by my co host who's a man, because, you know, women are only 1% of the Bible. And so if I didn't put a white man on this, you know, it wouldn't be a legitimate Christian.

John Dehlin [02:28:46] And podcasts and is she passive aggressive?

Holly Laurent [02:28:49] Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. But she's got what she thinks is a heart of gold. And so, you know, do the character.

John Dehlin [02:28:56] Can you do this, like, give us a sense for what it's like? Yeah, I put you on the spot. Oh, wait, you're an improv person.

Holly Laurent [02:29:02] You know what, that's what I love so much about Christianity is that, you know, what we do, what we take, we take what the world does. Like they might make an Oscar winning movie, but we take it and we, we give it a message of Christ and it's so much better. You know what I mean? And like, our music is better, our comedy is better. Like, there's nothing better than a Christian stand up. You know what I mean?

John Dehlin [02:29:29] Why are evangelicals better than Mormons?

Holly Laurent [02:29:32] Oh, to Halle. Well, you know what? The Mormons are a little bit out of their minds. And it's, it's a really dangerous group. They're wolves and sheep's clothing. See, because they think they really believe that they're right. But they got all this crazy stuff with underpants, multiple wives and all of that. And you know what? Marriage is one man and one woman. I did think Mitt Romney was very handsome, though. He reminded me of Billy Graham.

John Dehlin [02:30:04] Well, you guys have skeletons in your closet. You have Jim, Tammy Faye Baker.

Holly Laurent [02:30:09] You know what? Sometimes people fall, fall out of God's plan for them, but his grace is sufficient. And it's covered in the blood also.

John Dehlin [02:30:21] Are Mormons under that? Mormons covered in the blood?

Holly Laurent [02:30:24] Well, I don't think so. And it is strange to get washed in blood. It seems like it would make a mess, but it really does purify you. And I think, no, Mormons aren't washed in the blood because they don't believe in the real Jesus. But we're so lucky. I just pinch myself every day when I'm praying in the shower, going over my prayer list. I always say, thank you, Jesus, that I. Of the whole world, that I was born into the only one. That's true. I just. I just count my blessings every day that I was born into the only real one. But that's what I was taught, that Mormonism is true. True.

John Dehlin [02:31:02] I was taught the same thing.

Holly Laurent [02:31:03] Oh, well, it's very clear that, you know, they. They kind of have, like, a bastardized version of the Bible. And it's a real shame because, you know, I could go on like this.

John Dehlin [02:31:15] I want to. I want to. Okay, that's fine. We'll leave it to Alan. Alan's gonna come back and be the missionary.

Jenn Kamp [02:31:21] Oh, yeah.

Holly Laurent [02:31:22] Oh, that'll be fun.

John Dehlin [02:31:23] Episode. We'll do an episode.

Holly Laurent [02:31:24] That'll be really fun.

John Dehlin [02:31:25] Okay. So that gives us a sense for your character. And her role in the church is what?

Holly Laurent [02:31:30] She's a weekend producer, so she really is so proud of the fact that the weekend services that they put on that are these, like, you know, fogging the room, concerts, lights, you know, all the bells and whistles that the weekend services are the big, like, driver, the generator of what creates growth in the church and brings in unchurched people and converts them into. To wholehearted followers of Christ and all that stuff. And so she is the. My character Hallie is kind of like an assistant to the head guy who we call Steve. And, you know, everyone.

John Dehlin [02:32:12] Is he the lead pastor?

Holly Laurent [02:32:13] He's the lead pastor.

John Dehlin [02:32:15] And Steve, has he ever been on the show?

Holly Laurent [02:32:17] No. And he's like this untouchable.

John Dehlin [02:32:20] He's Joel Osteen.

Holly Laurent [02:32:21] Yeah. We talk about him and Rick Ward. Rick Word, such high regard. And he can do no wrong. And it's Steve. And then. But of course, all the things that we share about how awesome Steve is is showing you like, this guy is a dick. You know what I mean? And we're just like, oh, Steve. And it'll be interesting because I'll be like. Because Hallie has, like, really bad. Like, one of the things that came up one time we were just improvising, but I there. I was like, you know what? There's been so Stephen. Steve has three assistants. Me and Kimmy and Rihanna. And we all were kind of competitive, you know, because we, you know, want Steve to think that each one of us is doing a good job and that, you know, I hope he doesn't have a favorite and everything. But we all just were talking and we realized that all three of us have something in common. We've all had breast reductions. Can you believe it? And it's, you know, and we're able to be like, oh, yeah, that Steve likes. Steve likes big cans and. And you know, just take the piss, you know, of those powerful guys in. In those. In any little way that we possibly can.

John Dehlin [02:33:29] Our. Our. What are they called? Mega pastors. What are they called, like, in. In real life?

Holly Laurent [02:33:34] Megachurch pastors.

John Dehlin [02:33:35] Yeah. Are mega church pastors usually jerks? Do you think that's true? Is that fair?

Holly Laurent [02:33:43] I'd say most of them that I've ever met. I mean. Well, it's tricky.

John Dehlin [02:33:51] It wouldn't surprise me. I just don't know.

Holly Laurent [02:33:53] I don't know. I'm sure there's some lovely ones. I'm sure there's some lovely ones. And then Greg, my co host, he plays Gray. Everyone who comes on, it's a play off their own name. So my name is Holly Laurent and my character is Halle Labont. My husband's name is Greg Hess and his character. Character is Gray Haas. And then every guest just does a playoff of their name. Like Jason Manzoukas was Mason Janzukis and, and. But Gray plays. Greg plays Gray, the youth pastor of the youth ministry called Climax. And he's always. And in the way my character is kind of like going in on the, like, theological illiteracy of people who've based their life on the Bible. Bible. Greg's character is really kind of driving at the way that, like, it has become a capitalistic enterprise in, in terms of these, these, these. These churches and these systems and these. And so he. His is very like this more materialistic. He's very vain. He's always like, trying to act like, I'm really. I'm really young, you know, like, I'm young Haley, I'm, you know. And I made him be Australian because every mega church has like, the cool, hip Australian dude who plays like, bass guitar. I know, I know. And on our very first recording, I was like, greg, you have to be Australian. You have to be Australian. Because everyone has an Australian. And he's like, I don't know, an Australian accent. And I was like, google it really quick.

John Dehlin [02:35:15] That's pretty impressive because I think he sounds really authentic, but, like, I think of Australia as being so secular. So why is there a connection between Australia and mega churches? But there is.

Holly Laurent [02:35:27] Is. I honestly don't know.

John Dehlin [02:35:29] It's just a hot accent, I'm sure.

Holly Laurent [02:35:30] I think that too, John. Like, and, and that is so Funny and corny like. But, but Americans are a sucker for an accent, especially a British or Australian. And we just love it. We.

John Dehlin [02:35:42] Like there's a whole Crocodile Dundee kind of macho man kind of thing. Yeah, right.

Holly Laurent [02:35:45] And, and do you.

John Dehlin [02:35:46] Are you old enough to know that?

Jenn Kamp [02:35:47] Oh, yeah, I know. I know him.

Holly Laurent [02:35:49] That's not a knife. And, but, but it's. I think it comes from. And this is what Greg's character is really drilling down on is that there's such a desire to be cool. They just want to be that cool. Justin Bieber Church like.

Jenn Kamp [02:36:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:36:04] Alpha male.

Holly Laurent [02:36:05] And so he's kind of representing that of the alpha male.

John Dehlin [02:36:08] Sensitive alpha male.

Holly Laurent [02:36:09] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so he's.

John Dehlin [02:36:11] That's what Mark Driscoll kind of was.

Holly Laurent [02:36:12] Yeah, yeah, A hundred percent. So that's kind of what he's. What he's going after. And, and, and then it's really fun.

John Dehlin [02:36:19] And then it's pretty much you two always on every episode. Episode.

Holly Laurent [02:36:22] Yeah. And then we'll have a guest on. Except when I play my son Day, then I'm always like, oh, my mom wanted me to come in and talk to you. Great. Because you're my youth pastor and I think it's been really fun in Climax lately because, you know. And so.

John Dehlin [02:36:35] And are you playing you as a girl to your dad? Basically? A little bit like the naysayer skeptic or not. Is that who the son is?

Holly Laurent [02:36:43] I guess I am, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:36:46] That's fun.

Holly Laurent [02:36:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:36:47] And then the, these comedians you bring on, are they like well known improv people in the industry or.

Holly Laurent [02:36:53] Yeah, a lot of them. I mean, we get some really great, we get some really great people. We had Louie Anderson on and then became very, very good friends. We really spent most of the pandemic on FaceTime with Louie Anderson just goofing and doing bits. And then he passed away and we were really, really grieving and oh, he is such a goofy little, little darling. And, and you know, Cecily and Thomas Middle Ditch and Jason Man Zoukas and Matt Walsh from Veep, who I love so much and like so many people who I, who I look up to. We recently had Duncan Trussell and we've had.

John Dehlin [02:37:36] I'm going to, I'm going to say something I probably shouldn't, but, you know, whose line is it anyway? That's like the big. Is that like the biggest improv thing that's ever happened?

Holly Laurent [02:37:44] That's, that's the show that. Where improv went the most mainstream. Yeah, but that is short form improv, which Is like game based. And so short form improv, where it's really like, all right, what's it going to be? We're going to have this box of Kleenex and what can it be? It can be anything but a box of Kleenex.

John Dehlin [02:38:03] Hello.

Holly Laurent [02:38:04] You know, and like, that stuff, those came from. From a lot of the theater games that were the early iterations of improv being used as an exercise in the theater. And then one of the evolutions that came from that short form improv was an offshoot was long form improv, where you get one suggestion from the audience and it's more just like live theater where you get one suggestion from the top and then you do. And then you play and you do a show for 30 minutes, 45 minutes, 60 minutes. Before the pandemic, Manzoukas and I were doing a two person, a duo show that where we would do one scene where the characters never change. We would do one scene for about an hour. And it was some of the best, most fun play I've ever had in my life. Because when you can't like, edit and jump out and turn around and like, you know, be like, I'm. I'm playing the judge. That and then also jumping over and being the bailiff and being able to like, you know, pimp my other characters or like, you know.

John Dehlin [02:39:05] Because there's also this question about how much do improv people really write it beforehand but act like they haven't written it?

Jenn Kamp [02:39:11] Zero.

Holly Laurent [02:39:12] There's zero.

John Dehlin [02:39:13] Even in that short form. Whose lines did anyway kind of stuff?

Holly Laurent [02:39:16] I don't think so. I mean, that would be like a cardinal sin, right? Like, improv has to be pure.

John Dehlin [02:39:21] There's integrity.

Holly Laurent [02:39:22] Improv. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. So short form still really exists. And there's a lot of people who find short form, like, much more accessible. And I don't prefer it, but I've done it. I went and spent a summer in Bar Harbor, Maine, at an improv theater called Improv Acadia, where it was just all short form. So it would be like, bam, bam, bam, bam. And like start, like singing improv song, like improvising. Musically, it's got to be one of

John Dehlin [02:39:50] the hardest parts of comic, hardest forms of comedy to be funny on the fly.

Holly Laurent [02:39:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:39:56] It's hard to write good jokes. Being funny on the fly just feels impossible.

Holly Laurent [02:40:03] Yeah. But like, if you can kind of get over yourself and again, like, stop fearing failure.

John Dehlin [02:40:09] Yeah.

Holly Laurent [02:40:10] You'll just stumble into, like, improv, I think, at its best is not just two people talking to each other, who are deeply listening to each other. But it's also, it's being in a state of discovery versus invention. Like if you're inventing, you know, things on the spot from nothing, that is incredibly difficult. But if you keep it in a state of discovery where you're hanging on, not knowing where it's going but like racing toward it anyway, you know, stepping off the, you know, the Indiana Jones stepping into the chasm and the, you know, bridge appears years. That's when it gets really fun. That's when it gets really fun.

John Dehlin [02:40:55] Yeah.

Holly Laurent [02:40:56] And so, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:40:57] So is there like a, a Second City equivalent in LA that you've tried to be a part of or is that been there, done that, been at the highest, it would be a downgrade to even.

Holly Laurent [02:41:08] There is a Second City Hollywood. And when I got to la, it was really disappointing of you know, how it was like functioning compared to.

John Dehlin [02:41:17] Yeah. The real deal.

Holly Laurent [02:41:18] Yeah. And, and, and like the space is really bad. It's.

John Dehlin [02:41:24] And it's like going back to high school.

Holly Laurent [02:41:27] Yeah, it was a little bit. And, and, and yeah. And so, and I think Second City Hollywood is still. They like went online during the pandemic and I think they survived. But the place where I was playing the most when I got to LA was IO Hollywood and that one closed down forever.

John Dehlin [02:41:42] Okay.

Holly Laurent [02:41:42] And it's interesting. I was.

John Dehlin [02:41:44] Oh, cuz there's an I.O. chicago.

Holly Laurent [02:41:46] Yeah, there's an I.O. chicago. But even that she sold it off during the pandemic.

John Dehlin [02:41:50] Bummer.

Holly Laurent [02:41:51] And so I think maybe somebody bought it and they're going to try to bring it back, but I don't know if it'll be the same.

John Dehlin [02:41:57] You know, it's a dying craft.

Holly Laurent [02:41:59] It, it really, it's interesting.

John Dehlin [02:42:01] I don't mean to make fun of

Holly Laurent [02:42:02] it, but it, it, I think, I think improv is a little bit like skateboarding. Like kids will always come up and start skateboarding but because it's a little like it's, it's, it's community, it's. It's you. It's the clothes, it's the, it's the language, it's the everything.

John Dehlin [02:42:20] The culture subculture.

Holly Laurent [02:42:22] Yeah. And, and like skateboarding I, I think like isn't. You can't really turn skateboarding into a big like huge multi million like people find it because like what I fell in love with, what, what really got me with import improv was that it was so exciting to show up to this tiny little place every night with low ceilings and like everyone packing in and it Felt like you were finding some underground thing. And I think what happened with improv is, like, the big improv spots kind of started to get greedy and, like, grow. And Second City in Chicago started to be like the Mall of America. It just kept like, you know, now we have a. Like, film school, and we have this and the train center, and now we're putting shows on all the boats and everything. And just some degree, that's a good thing because it's creating more opportunity for more players, which is great, but it starts to be the snake eating its own tail. Like, IO went from, like. And. And then, like, you open up too many theaters, and then you're in competition with yourself, trying to, like, fill up all your theaters and all of that stuff. So I feel like it might just be, like, the stock market resetting, where everyone got greedy, tried to make it big. It has to go back underground and be a successful subculture again, I hope.

John Dehlin [02:43:33] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [02:43:33] I don't know.

John Dehlin [02:43:34] Yeah, it's probably always been with us. It probably always will be.

Holly Laurent [02:43:37] I hope so. I really hope so.

John Dehlin [02:43:40] Okay, so. So those dudes from Whose Line Is It Anyway? They're. Do you, like, have guests? Do you have guests that. That, like, your. Your list of, like, the top five guests you'd want to have still on the show? Like, if you. Dream list. Do you even have a dream list or have you had. Had? You know what I mean?

Holly Laurent [02:44:01] Yeah, it's on the spot.

John Dehlin [02:44:04] It's on the spot. Question.

Holly Laurent [02:44:06] Who would I love to have on the show? We just had Lisa Lampanelli on the show, and my goodness gracious, she is a wild woman and so amazing. And. And. And we had Louie Anderson, and we've had some, like, stalwarts of the crowd, and now we're starting to get younger people who, like, sometimes I've never heard of. We just finally hired a producer and. Because booking guests, as you probably know, starts to be a real hard thing, especially how many you've done. But so now, I mean. Oh, yeah, I would love to have, like, Julia Louis Dreyfus, people like that. We. It's funny because I was at one of the. Greg's Improv.

John Dehlin [02:44:55] She was Second City, right?

Holly Laurent [02:44:57] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And. And snl. She had a terrible. She had a really hard time at snl.

John Dehlin [02:45:02] She was like, one year, right? Half a year or something gone. Yeah.

Holly Laurent [02:45:09] But. But one time, John, I was at Largo at one of Greg's improv shake shows, and sometimes they have people sitting into their shows, and Jason Alexander from Seinfeld, George Costanza sat in and played in Greg's show that night. And afterwards, I was in the lobby, and I was, like, looking at him and trying not to act like I was looking at him, you know? And I was like, oh, man, I want to go over and just be like. But I don't want to be that person, you know, like, leave him alone or whatever. And I was just like, okay. And I think I was just waiting for Greg and looking at my phone, and someone tapped me on the shoulder, and I turned around, and it was Jason Alexander. And I was like. And he was like, are you the lovely wife of Greg? And I was like, yeah. And he was like, is your name Holly? And I was like, yes. And I almost started crying. And he was like, my son tells me you're the best improv teacher there is. Do you think you could teach me? And. Because his son had been my student at Iowa, in Hollywood, and. And I just, like, burst into a million pieces and died right there in that moment, that day.

John Dehlin [02:46:18] You met George Costanza.

Holly Laurent [02:46:22] Yeah. So great. So great. Oh, George. But yeah.

John Dehlin [02:46:29] Okay. All right. So how many episodes into Mega are you.

Holly Laurent [02:46:32] I think we're about to have our 200th.

John Dehlin [02:46:35] Okay.

Holly Laurent [02:46:36] Which for us is a big deal.

John Dehlin [02:46:37] That's huge. Congratulations to you.

Holly Laurent [02:46:39] You're like, oh, you're reaching the toddler phase of it.

John Dehlin [02:46:44] No, that's amazing.

Holly Laurent [02:46:45] Hey, thanks, man.

John Dehlin [02:46:46] Yeah. Okay. And you have a producer. That means you have extra money to hire somebody. That's a. That's. So you're doing. I mean, I guess la. Like, I almost wish you could move to, like, some small town, affordable. Yeah, yeah. But then you want to be near where a lot of the. A lot of the talent.

Holly Laurent [02:47:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:47:04] Is centralized and. Or visiting. I get that. That's why I'm in Salt Lake.

Holly Laurent [02:47:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:47:08] Because it's just where all the Mormon action is.

Holly Laurent [02:47:10] Yeah. But our producer was so cool. She's like, look, I'll do it for, like, 10% of your net. And we were like, fantastic. And like, when we have been writing her, like, her check for the month, like, when I know how much she was working that month, and then, like, I look at what we're sending her, I'm like, oh, I'm always like, katie, I promise you. Like, it is my goal to get these checks way bigger that we're sending. Sending you. And she's like, no, that's my goal. And I'm like, yeah, that's good.

John Dehlin [02:47:41] She's incentivized.

Holly Laurent [02:47:42] Yeah. Yeah. So she's been really great.

John Dehlin [02:47:44] But you're grateful for her generosity.

Holly Laurent [02:47:47] Yeah, man. I mean, we couldn't. Yeah, yeah. Because having her as part of us being like, okay, let's give this one last shot of. Because if we could really grow the audience, if you know it, then we could definitely sell it to tv. Tv, you know, but we're gonna try.

John Dehlin [02:48:03] How big would it have to be?

Holly Laurent [02:48:05] Oh, man, I don't know. But if we had like, if we had a regular, if we had a million, if we had a million listeners, like, we would sell a TV show instantly, you know?

John Dehlin [02:48:13] Listeners. That's hard.

Holly Laurent [02:48:15] So hard. But I wonder what it would be. I don't know. That's a great question.

Ex-Evangelical Community Online and on TikTok

John Dehlin [02:48:19] Do you do Tick Tock at all?

Holly Laurent [02:48:22] We tried to, we tried to. And Greg got on there. People were telling us like, you got to be on Tick Tock, you got to be on Tik Tok. And Greg got on there and got pretty freaked out pretty quick. He was like, I don't know what the algorithm, who they think I am, but this is all like QAnon stuff. AR15 people and then like girls dancing in bikinis. And he's like, I feel really weird about this, like. And he just like deleted it immediately. Do you do Tik Tok?

John Dehlin [02:48:47] Oh, yeah, yeah, we have, I hired a, Before Jen, we had a, A really awesome, awesome, talented 33 year old ex Mormon woman who, whose husband did a podcast with Tig Notaro in la.

Holly Laurent [02:49:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:49:05] Back in the day. And then they moved here and she started doing ex Mormon Tiktoking. Her name is Carrell. And then, and then I brought her on to run our TikTok. So we, she grew our TikTok channel from like, no, nothing to like 120,000 subscribers in like a few months.

Holly Laurent [02:49:23] That's fantastic.

John Dehlin [02:49:24] And, and it, it, that and what we've done on YouTube and video.

Holly Laurent [02:49:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:49:30] Like doubled our viewing audience in like one year. So like TikTok and Instagram and video has really fueled our podcast.

Holly Laurent [02:49:40] Interesting.

John Dehlin [02:49:41] So I'm happy. I mean, I, this is like now we're just so in the weeds now

Holly Laurent [02:49:45] we're talking to the podcasting mechanics.

John Dehlin [02:49:47] But I, I, I just want, I, I want to help. I mean, so I like the, like the ethic in LA day. Like, okay, now we're gonna make this relevant to everybody. Like when, when Leah Remini and Mike Rinder had me on Fair Game podcast.

Holly Laurent [02:50:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:50:03] And you should go on that. Maybe. I don't know, but I'd love to, but. Because they just interview former members of cults, basically. I Had this idea like every year there should be like an ex religious convention where and everyone who's come out of a high demand religion, the authors, the podcasters, the YouTubers, the talent and all the people can get together and meet all these people and talk about coming out of a high demand religion. Talk about the healing, talk about the trauma, talk about the growth mental health professionals and building community. So that's like, that's like one thing that would be super cool, like a comic con, but for, for ex. For cult survivors. Yeah, a comic con for cult survivors.

Jenn Kamp [02:50:48] Right.

John Dehlin [02:50:49] And that's. That'd be cool. And then I was talking to you in the break just about how cool it would be to have a weekly podcast. Not that you need another thing and what you want to be doing is comedy. So this does it, you know, but like if me and you and Leah or, or even Sarah Edmondson from the Nexium.

Holly Laurent [02:51:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:51:08] She came here, she sat in that chair. Do you know Sarah?

Holly Laurent [02:51:11] Yeah, from a little bit.

John Dehlin [02:51:13] Oh my gosh. I just swore a little bit Culty.

Holly Laurent [02:51:19] Hallie did that recently too where I was like, I am. Bless, bless, bless, bless, bless.

John Dehlin [02:51:23] Brass Press.

Holly Laurent [02:51:25] Whoopsie.

John Dehlin [02:51:28] Sarah Edmondson and Nippy. Sarah Nippy from culty.

Holly Laurent [02:51:31] Yeah, I watched that.

John Dehlin [02:51:32] They've been out here. You watched, you watched the Vow? Yeah, on hbo.

Holly Laurent [02:51:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:51:36] Anyway, she's lovely. Like there's so many cool JC and Lady C from the Jehovah's Witnesses, Chris Shelton. There's so many cool ex cult influencers. It would be cool if like Super Friends, like Event Avengers, like X Men. It would be so cool if we could find a way to build each other up. John and Cross promote and market.

Holly Laurent [02:51:59] Yeah, I would do that in a heart.

John Dehlin [02:52:00] How would you have time?

Holly Laurent [02:52:01] I would, I would love to do that. And I don't only do comedy like I've been. The podcast I was pitching this morning, the meeting that I had was I'm pitching a very dark like investigative thing. So I'm. It doesn't always only have to be comedy, but sometimes it's nice because I like to be maybe like one of the funny people in the room on a non comedic thing to just help to bring some levity in the, in the, in, in, in the like more difficult content and stuff. But I would do that in a heartbeat. I would love. This is my favorite stuff is talking like this.

John Dehlin [02:52:33] Yeah.

Holly Laurent [02:52:34] Like the behind the scenes stuff this

John Dehlin [02:52:35] week in cults, you know, something like that. Yeah. With a panel of like. I think we do a pilot, interesting

Holly Laurent [02:52:41] people and Just see what we learn from just doing one. Because even the convention thing you're talking about, like, we could probably get some of the most incredible musicians. I'm now meeting, like, people of. Of all. In all the arts that are at the top of their game, who are deconstructed, converting, and who, I mean, you could get. And. And. And it would be. It would be so fun because it would be a conference or whatever of a bunch of people not taking themselves seriously. Because it doesn't have to be turned into propaganda because we're not trying to convince anyone of anything. We're just like, I know, right?

John Dehlin [02:53:17] Well, I mean, if you think about it, and we're just brainstorming here, like, tick tock. There's a massive ex. Evangelical presence on T. TikTok. Imagine if all those exvangelical tiktokers had a conference to go to to meet their respective audiences, but they could also be speakers at the conference. Same with YouTubers. Yeah, same with. You know what I mean? So podcasters, tiktokers in influencers, former preachers. Bart Campolo.

Holly Laurent [02:53:44] Musicians. Musicians, former worship leaders.

John Dehlin [02:53:47] Totally.

Holly Laurent [02:53:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:53:49] And speak and just like, like doing comedy routines, doing music, meeting their fans, giving inspirational talks along with, like, mental health professionals and fast. Right.

Holly Laurent [02:54:00] Be so fun.

John Dehlin [02:54:01] Yeah, yeah. There's. And. And again, this is a rise of the nuns growing market.

Holly Laurent [02:54:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:54:08] With.

Jenn Kamp [02:54:08] No.

John Dehlin [02:54:09] You know, it's. I. I'm thinking of Bob Geldoff. Do you remember we, Live Aid. We are the world.

Holly Laurent [02:54:14] Yeah. Of course.

John Dehlin [02:54:15] It took, like, one obscure musician to say, hey, all these people are starving in Africa. And then he's bringing Michael Jackson and Sting and Phil Collins and.

Holly Laurent [02:54:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:54:25] You know, like, anyway.

Holly Laurent [02:54:27] Yeah, we.

John Dehlin [02:54:28] We need this. The world needs this.

Holly Laurent [02:54:29] I'm in.

John Dehlin [02:54:33] It starts with the podcast. It started with this podcast episode, y'. All.

Holly Laurent [02:54:38] You were here for the inception moment.

John Dehlin [02:54:41] Anyway. Okay. I. I dream too much sometimes. So. Okay, so Mega is about to hit his 200th episode. Okay. And. And financially. So do you have, like, a donate button? Is it. Is it mostly just Patreon? You say you've got 300 Patreon people?

Holly Laurent [02:55:04] Like, yeah. And now I don't understand Twitch, how it works on Twitch yet. But, like, we've been doing Twitch for a few months now, and I think. Think you can build it up to monetize. You know, we've been. For a few months now, we've been like, I wonder what it'll turn out to be. Like. And if you break it down into the hours we're putting in, like, if It'll end up being worth it, but we're giving it a shot. So we're trying all the different avenues of how to monetize it for sure. Because honestly, it has gone from like a pet project to becoming like, our jobs. And so we really do need to try to like, make it a sustainable thing, you know? Know.

John Dehlin [02:55:41] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So if people want to support you,

Holly Laurent [02:55:44] how do they do it on Patreon? Yeah, Mega. The podcast on Patreon. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:55:49] Okay.

Holly Laurent [02:55:50] And we give lots of like, I think that, I think the behind the Patreon Wall podcast that we do, that's called the Mini. And, And I, and I write. My character, Hallie always says, like, if I might offer you a word basket of encouragement, John. So I have this newsletter letter I do just for our patrons every month called the Word Basket, and where I'll like, try to do these really thoughtful essays to them about just sort of synthesizing some of the issues that are coming up in. In culture, but also of some of the stuff that comes up in our podcast. And so we do, like, I, we do the letter, we do the behind the scenes mini episode episodes. We do, we're about to, we're trying to do. We're like, okay, let's really swing at every possible ball on this, but we're trying to do. Or we're about to do a role playing game. We're about to do an RPG game where we play Climax kids who are doing a Christian role playing game of like, Dungeons and Dragons, but it's called Hunter and it's where we're hunting very real demons and, and using like, Bible verses to like, increase our power inside the RPG game and stuff.

John Dehlin [02:57:05] Power up.

Holly Laurent [02:57:06] And, and this is a new, like, I didn't know this, but, like, RPG games, like Dungeons Dragons and stuff. Like now is. Yeah, like, full streaming, like, entertainment. Like, people will just watch, like, and I'm like, wow, so we're gonna do one of those in collaboration with this rpg, like, Glass Cannon Company. And like, so, yeah, we're. We're. We're just swinging at every possible ball. And yeah, I really, I really am curious to see where it goes. And I'm, and I'm excited about it. I really try to not let myself dip into the, like, oh, man, where's this going? I. Maybe I flamed out, whatever. But trying to keep that thing of like, ah, the best is yet to come. I got to believe that. I got to believe that. And in the meantime, I get to do comedy with people I love, love Goodness gracious. And the podcast has allowed me to continue to improvise on a regular basis, which to me is like my heart's greatest love.

Jenn Kamp [02:58:07] And.

John Dehlin [02:58:09] Yeah, yeah, so you're. Maybe you're sitting under the tree, you're seeking shade or what was the quote?

Holly Laurent [02:58:18] Yeah, I'm. I'm sitting in the shade of the tree. I'm looking for. I'm here. I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah, what if. Yeah, you know, I think there's a. And I'm sure a lot of. I'm sure a lot of the pain that we keep ourselves in comes from the lot. A lot of the dualistic thinking of having been raised in, in, in these churches, but also, you know, from a religious trauma and all that stuff. But, yeah, I. Think that. I don't know, the older I get. Yeah. Being able to. The only thing that improperly asks of you is to be fully present. And I think we're so very rarely, like, present, because when you're, when you are fully in the present, it's usually not a very, like, anxious or depressing place to be, you know, but we, like, go into our heads a lot and into the story that we're telling, and our anxiety and depression sort of grows, you know, so, yeah, I think. I, I, I. It's like what we were talking about yesterday, that the more I leave behind the binary and the, like, dualism, the more I begin to experience less fear. Because it's like that Ram Dass quote of, when I know myself, when I don't know myself, I serve you. When I know myself, I am you. And, and starting to. And maybe that's why I like to try on so many different characters in improv, because maybe it's fun to take a break from being me, but also maybe I'm exploring the, like, connectedness of all of us. And like, with psychedelics, when the ego falls away, the first thing, one of the main things you experience is that, like, we're all, it's all connection. We are connected, and we are, like, held in these connections and everything's okay, whereas my normal brain is, like, things aren't okay. You know, And I, I don't know where I would get that other than the fact that there's a very real hell waiting for me if I, like, don't get my act together. And, you know, life is suffering. So,

Psychedelics, Therapy, and Post-Religious Healing

John Dehlin [03:01:17] yeah, nowadays we can't have an episode without mentioning psychedelics like that. It wouldn't be, it wouldn't be Mormon stories.

Holly Laurent [03:01:24] They're. They're really resurging man. And now it's like so much.

John Dehlin [03:01:27] Tell me about it.

Holly Laurent [03:01:28] For therapy and ptsd.

John Dehlin [03:01:29] There's actually a po. There's a podcast called Mormons on Mushrooms and it's all about ex Mormon psychedelic exploration. You. You didn't know that?

Holly Laurent [03:01:38] No.

John Dehlin [03:01:38] Your mouth is wide open.

Holly Laurent [03:01:41] I mean man, psychedelics are get racing back into the mainstream. I. I also think it's that. Do you remember that game, that board game as early childhood shoots and ladders where once in a while you're going up, up, up. And then you'd like, you'd get that big slide down, down. You'd be like, damn it. Up, up, up, up, slowly. But remember when you would hit that big ladder, there was that one big ladder that would take you all the way up to like one line from the top. I think that's kind of what psychedelics do in terms of like, like therapy is going each box to do for your whole life. All the way up is therapy, man. Psychedelics done in a therapeutic setting is like you hit that, you hit that ladder. Sort of feels like cheating, but it's nice.

John Dehlin [03:02:34] It's like two years of therapy in one trip, basically.

Holly Laurent [03:02:37] Yeah, for sure. And when you actually be. When you actually feel self love in your body and what it feels like to love yourself and to have compassion for yourself, it feels amazing. Like we're so familiar with the feeling of hating ourselves and it's like a little death every single time. And when you feel self love, it's like, oh, it can start to teach you slowly of like, I can maybe get to this without psychedelics. Learning that feeling, healing, learning how to continue to. First you make the new neural pathway and the new synapses with the psychedelic and then you can kind of keep trying to reinforce that, that pathway that synapses that has create. You know that the mushrooms taught you that like, it's okay, everything's okay, you're okay. That painful relationship, it's okay. Like that, that trouble at work, it's okay, everything's okay. And, and you can kind of then start to practice that, that thought and deepen that neural pathway so it's not so hard to access. You know, sometimes I wondered when I was in therapy for a long time, I wondered, I'm like, am I deepening the groove of this neural pathway by continuing to sit here and cry about these same stories? You know, I want to think new thoughts and make new. I mean there's neuroplasticity. You know, you see all those deep grooves in a brain and we made those deep grooves by thinking all the same thoughts and letting everything fire down the same pathway till it became a deep, deep track, you know? So I think psychedelics are useful for that, for that neuroplasticity and all of that. But it's funny because a lot of people who. Who stopped believing in God do psychedelics, and then they're like, oh, I wouldn't call it God because I have too much baggage with that word. But there's something. It's not what's represented in, like, world religions, but there's something. There's something. There's a. I listened to a podcast recently called Where Is My Mind? And it was basically about all the new science, brain science that's coming out about. About consciousness and that. We've often thought of the brain as like a generator of consciousness. So, like, if you get knocked out, you become unconscious, you know, it's because you had a brain injury or whatever, because the brain is generating your consciousness. But what I've been hearing and doing a lot of reading about is that it's starting to appear as if our brain is not the generator of our consciousness. It's more like an antagonist antenna that's like picking up on a consciousness. And that's really interesting to me because it's like, oh, what if that's the thing of, like, okay, let's call it God for a second. Let this. This may be like, force of connection in the cosmos or whatever. It becomes more interesting to me to be like, oh, what if this God, this, like, force or of consciousness or something. And maybe that's also why we're so scared of death, because. Because our consciousness feels like it can think of more like. Like, maybe our consciousness is outside of space, outside of space and time, but our body is trapped in space and time. And so we. We get. There's like a cognitive dissonance about. And so we have to be like, oh, we will live on past death. We'll go to heaven, you know, like, because we're like, there has to be more than this. That might be that, like, our. Our antenna is up and tapping into this consciousness. That might just be God, because let's say God poured itself into the material experience so that it could. Because if the God force is outside of space and time and wanted to experience change, it would have to pour itself into the material space and time world to experience that. So maybe that's what we're doing. And so all these stories that we've been telling all these years with all these religions, like, Maybe we're not describing God, maybe we're describing us. Like we are capable of creating, we are capable of casting out, we are capable of self sacrifice. We are capable of, of both that warlike God we were talking about and the like self sacrificing Jesus. We were talking about the, the prolific abortionist, the, the, the genocide and, and then the self sacrificing. Like that's, that's us. You know, one, one remember Jesus said

John Dehlin [03:07:45] the kingdom of God is, remember now, now within is within.

Holly Laurent [03:07:52] You know, I was just talking about this with Jen last night that I heard someone on Duncan Trussell's podcast talking about how so these teachers become enlightened and they start sharing their thing. Buddha Joseph Campbell Jesus, you know, Jesus emerged as a teacher in the first time he spoke and had an audience of people listening to him. He said that like the kingdom of God he talked about like the destitute is like that's the kingdom of God. Like if you can get to the point of the, the thing we're all avoiding and afraid of. Like it's like the anti capitalist, which is funny that we've made. We've turned Jesus into a like democratic capitalist. But when he wasn't even a communist, he was beyond communism. He was like, no, I'm not even saying everybody have the same. I'm saying give everything you have to the poor, you know. And after his first time speaking, when he kind of shared what his enlightenment was of like what the kingdom of God is, everybody was like, nah, nah. And he never. And he only spoke in parables from that point on of like, oh, they're not ready to hear. And so I'll tell them stories of like ways to live and in, in ways that they can understand. And it's. I heard one of my teachers, one of my viewpoints teachers, this amazing trans woman named Alexandra Billings, she, I heard her one time in class say, when the student is ready, the teacher appears that for. And I was like, oh yeah. It's like you can, someone can be telling you the same thing the whole time and until you're ready to hear it.

John Dehlin [03:09:50] Yeah, the.

Holly Laurent [03:09:52] When the student is ready, the teacher appears. So yeah, I, and I notice that all the time. Time that I'll finally learn something and I'll be like, oh, it was there all the time for sure. But I wasn't, I wasn't ready for sure. I, I feel like it's probably like that with you or with therapists is that like the therapist can look at you and be like, I know the thing. But I can't tell it to you because you have to get there.

John Dehlin [03:10:16] Yeah.

Holly Laurent [03:10:16] Is that how it is?

John Dehlin [03:10:17] Well, and I mean, or being a parent, like, with kids.

Holly Laurent [03:10:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:10:23] Holly moly.

Jenn Kamp [03:10:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:10:25] You just. I can sit there and tell one of my kids, if you do this, this is going to happen. You don't want to do this. And they'll like, oh, thanks, dad. And then the next week they'll do the thing you said not to do and literally come back to your dad. I did this thing and it was a disaster. And I wish I hadn't done it and I'm not going to do it anymore. And you just, like,

Holly Laurent [03:10:46] you have to restrain yourself from being like, no. Doy. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:10:52] Anyway. Yeah, that's cool. Well, just to close that out, like, because Mormons, you know, are so anti alcohol, anti cigarettes, anti drugs, like you were. Some of my listeners are really uncomfortable when psychedelics get mentioned because it's still very early. And just for. To be clear, I've never tried any drug or alcohol or tobacco. Tobacco. But there's just no beating back. The site Psychedelics is coming for you. Yeah, it is.

Holly Laurent [03:11:24] I think it's coming for you. I think mushrooms are going to be legalized in California pretty soon.

John Dehlin [03:11:28] Yeah, yeah. I. I read how to change your mind. I was a Michael Pollan fan before he ever even got into this stuff. And I. There is no. I don't think there's an ex Mormon alive that hasn't tried psychedelics except me. I think I'm like, the only one.

Holly Laurent [03:11:41] You're the holdout.

John Dehlin [03:11:42] I'm the only, only one. So it's coming for you. But don't think that this is, like, promoting illegal behavior. You don't officially promote any illegal behavior. No. Or psychedelics, because there's still work to be done. But if you want to watch fabulous fungi.

Holly Laurent [03:11:56] Oh, fantastic.

John Dehlin [03:11:57] Fantastic fungi. Or read how to change your mind, you can learn more.

Holly Laurent [03:12:01] Yeah, yeah. And.

John Dehlin [03:12:02] Or check out mushroom Mormons on mushrooms

Holly Laurent [03:12:04] podcast and you don't have to do anything you don't want to do ever.

John Dehlin [03:12:09] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so really quickly. Back to mega churches. It. Are mega churches on the rise or are they on the ropes? And is that a good thing or a bad thing? Do you have your pulse? Finger on that pulse. Are you like. Are you like a watch. Are you a mega church watchdog at this point or not?

Megachurches, Media Literacy, and Critical Thinking

Holly Laurent [03:12:34] Ish. Like, I get triggered so easily that then I'm like, do you follow them?

John Dehlin [03:12:38] Do you follow megachurch.com.

Holly Laurent [03:12:39] news when it's in the news, you know, like when. When the rise and fall of Mars Hill came out, I was like, oh, yeah, I gotta do this. Like, people, because of my podcast, people will send me stuff a lot. And so. But it's funny. Greg and I have laughed because we've been out of the church for so long now that it's funny that a lot of our references, like, for Christian music or whatever, our references are so old because, like, I'm not listening to Christian music now. I don't know what's happening, you know?

John Dehlin [03:13:06] So what do you think about our mega church? This is the question I asked. Believe it or not, our megachurch is on the rise or the. On the decline. Like. Like, what's happening to the megachurch? Or do you even have a pulse on it to know? Are they thinking. Because the Mormon Church is in decline, period?

Holly Laurent [03:13:25] No question. Because people are leaving.

John Dehlin [03:13:27] Yeah. And because the Internet. The Internet. Well, so people of my generation and are stumbling on podcasts and the Internet and YouTube channels, and they're learning that the church hid all this history from us and all this information. And there's that. And then there's a bunch of us that have LGBTQ kids or family members, or there are a bunch of us that are awakening to feminism or anti racism. And so there's a whole social. So there's a historical, doctrinal component that's leaving because they realized either the church clearly isn't true or that the church hid information from us. That's one huge block. Then there's a huge block of social justice people for whom they realize the church is just bigoted in eight different ways. Eight different major ways. And then there's just the youth. Like, anyone under 30.

Jenn Kamp [03:14:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:14:18] Like, that's. Yeah, that's what's killing Mormonism. Yeah. What's happening? Do you have your pulse on evangelical Christianity and mega churches?

Holly Laurent [03:14:26] My gut says that it's similar and for many of the same reasons. You know, people are getting on social media and being exposed to, like, oh, wait, there's a different way to look at this. And, And. And. But it. To me, my feeling is that it's in decline. I really don't have my pulse.

John Dehlin [03:14:47] That's right.

Holly Laurent [03:14:47] My finger on the pulse enough to say. But as much as my gut says, like, I think it's on the decline, similarly to Mormonism, but there's also. It really does feel like there is a groundswell right now of. Of a coalescent. A coalescing of coalition. Coalition coalescing of the. Of the right and and that it, it feels like it's sort of gaining some steam and power and, and, oh, yeah, they're mad and, and they're on the move. So I, I could be wrong. I, I such a good question.

John Dehlin [03:15:20] I, like, I was seeing some crazy stat. And this isn't to get political, it's descriptive that, like some crazy low percentage of America wants to get rid of abortion. I know, like between 10 and 20%.

Holly Laurent [03:15:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:15:35] And yet somehow the religious right has found a way to work through to the Supreme Court to take away something that, like, the overwhelming majority of the country doesn't want to get of.

Holly Laurent [03:15:48] Rid.

John Dehlin [03:15:48] Rid of.

Holly Laurent [03:15:49] Right.

John Dehlin [03:15:49] That's weird. And it's religion.

Holly Laurent [03:15:51] Right.

John Dehlin [03:15:51] Isn't it? Am I wrong?

Holly Laurent [03:15:53] It is.

John Dehlin [03:15:53] Yeah.

Holly Laurent [03:15:54] And it, and it's minority rule.

John Dehlin [03:15:55] Yeah.

Holly Laurent [03:15:56] And you don't want to get into that. Yeah, that goes nowhere good.

John Dehlin [03:15:59] Yeah.

Holly Laurent [03:16:00] You know.

John Dehlin [03:16:00] Yeah,

Holly Laurent [03:16:03] yeah, yeah. I went out last night for dinner here in Salt Lake, and I had a server whose accent was. So I was like, where are you from? And she was like, like. And I was like, what is she going to say? And she's like, I am from Russia. And she's like, I don't, like, you know, she's like, that's really bad right now. And I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, she had so much shame. Yes, she had so much shame. And I was like, oh. And then she started talking and opening up, and she was like, it is so bad. We cannot get money. Like, she can't get money to her family. Her family can't, can't access money. Like, she just started, like it was a, a dam broke. And I was like, oh, my gosh. And, and she was like, when, she was like, I have access to information. When you don't have access to information. I mean, you are in the dark ages and there's nothing you can do. And she's like, they can't, they don't know. They don't, you know, And I'm like, man, that's really scary. And now if we have, have a country where we're all operating with different information, you know, isn't that a similar problem to operating with no information? It's, it's, yeah, it's a huge problem.

John Dehlin [03:17:20] I, I, I, I hope. I don't know if the listener is going to be listening, but I have listeners in Russia, and I had a listener from Russia reach out to me. So I did an episode with a Ukraine. Ukrainian, Right. Who, like, lived, you know, lived in, was raised in Ukraine. Was raised in Ukraine, moved To the States, converted to Mormonism.

Jenn Kamp [03:17:44] Wow.

John Dehlin [03:17:44] And then married a Mormon and then ended up leaving Mormonism.

Holly Laurent [03:17:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:17:49] Moving back to Ukraine.

Holly Laurent [03:17:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:17:51] And they were there up, you know, right until the pandemic. So I like, you know, Ukraine's happening, so interview a Ukrainian ex Mormon. Because, like, it's Mormon stories. I'm thinking I'm just only doing good. And then one of my Russian listeners reaches out to me and he says in, you know, text, like, I'm really disappointed in you, John. I'm like, why? And he's like, well, like, I really looked to your podcast as a source of truth and information and you helped me deconstruct like a really damaging high demand religious system. And so I'm just really disappointed that you've been sucked into the leftist liberal agenda about what's going on in Ukraine. And I was like, oh, really? Tell me more.

Holly Laurent [03:18:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:18:35] And he's like, oh, well, we're not sending. Russia's not sending soldiers into Ukraine. Russia's sending peacekeepers into Ukraine. I'm like, what? He's like, yeah, yeah, they're sending blankets and care packages. It's. It's the Ukrainian president who's bombing his own building buildings and bombing his own hospitals. And we're just trying to save the Ukrainian people from the tyrannical Ukraine leader.

Holly Laurent [03:19:04] Wow.

John Dehlin [03:19:05] And I'm like, what? Like, really? And that's. And, and he's like, yeah, here's some random YouTube channel, here's a random YouTube video, here's Tucker Carlson. Like, you're getting propaganda. And I was like, I'm getting propaganda. He's like, yeah, I'm not getting propaganda. We're delivering care packages. What do you do in that world?

Holly Laurent [03:19:30] I mean, you can't win. It's really. Yeah. And that's what we're doing with CNN and fox.

John Dehlin [03:19:38] Oh, yeah.

Holly Laurent [03:19:39] I'm not. You are. I'm not. The like. And the what about ism is like, there's no winning.

John Dehlin [03:19:44] I'm not, I'm not going to be saying MSNBC and CNN are the right. I'm not going to say that. Just where do we find objective, mutually shared, agreeable information? Where religious or political or economic or social.

Holly Laurent [03:19:59] Anything else? I mean, at this point, he's lucky that he can even get your podcast.

John Dehlin [03:20:06] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was surprised.

Holly Laurent [03:20:09] I, in la, my neighbors, I have these really cool Polish neighbors who are just lovely and they, they said all their families, their in laws, everyone they know in Poland has like upwards of 15 people sleeping on their floors, like indefinitely. And they've started this sort of, like, the. The Polish kids have started this kind of, like, guerilla campaign to figure out ways to try to get information into Russia. So they'll go into a, like, Yelp review thing of a Moscow pizzeria. And so they'll be like, the pizza was really good. And then they'll, like, start just putting in the facts of, like, Russia is attacking Ukraine and trying to, like. And they're putting it in the Yelp reviews of things, just hoping that Russians will try to, like, will start, like, reading it and seeing it. And I'm like, I love that kind of guerrilla type thing. But also if there is a, like, you know, if. I guess there's no winning if they're like, oh, that's just propaganda. That's lies. Like, how do you get. It's a real problem.

John Dehlin [03:21:18] And I was saying, you're. I think you're affected by propaganda. And he's saying, I think you're affected by propaganda. Yeah, it's just so weird, and it makes you question your own reality.

Holly Laurent [03:21:32] I think one of the most important things we should be teaching in schools now is, like, media studies and, like, how to consume news because, yeah, critical thinking 100%.

John Dehlin [03:21:41] Yeah.

Holly Laurent [03:21:41] As well as emotions. I always, like, wish we would had. Have had a. Like, we would have made fun of it, like, health class and stuff. Like, oh, dumb. But, like, if. If, you know, we could have, you know, open, honest discussions about, like, in school with kids of, like, oh, this is what. This is what grief is. This is what it feels like. This is how. This is how it makes you view things. For while sometimes it lasts this long, sometimes it lasts this long, it won't last forever in its intensity. But, you know, you'll experience it like this, and everyone feels it. And sometimes it'll make you think this. But, you know, you have to remember this. And this is what jealousy feels like. And jealousy is different than envy. And here's the thing. And like, a lot of times, jealousy can be seen as, like, a negative emotion. And then you kind of commit yourself up and, you know, like, I would have just like, man, if I had learned like that, like, it's okay to not only have feelings, but to feel them. But, man, I. I really didn't. I was like, do anything but feel it, you know, and that's information. And again, when the church turns you against your own body and intuition and gut feelings and everything, I'm like, no, no, no, you're wrong. The spirit is the, you know, no thing. Like, you're and if you. And it. I noticed as a woman, I can only speak for me, but, like, I would have a feeling and I would override it so often of, like. No, no, no. It's what the church is saying, that eventually you start to not be able to hear that thing your body is trying to tell you. I. I read or I heard. I must have been in a podcast. It was something about. There was a sociological study on. You know, we've been hearing more and more stuff lately about how the gut is like your second brain and that your gut and your brain are, like, very much connected and.

John Dehlin [03:23:34] Serotonin in your gut.

Holly Laurent [03:23:36] Yeah, yeah. And all of our feelings are information. Like, even, like, anger. Women aren't allowed to be ang. Angry. It's. It's unbecoming of a lady or whatever. Whatever. But that anger is so much information. What it's telling me is, like a boundary has been crossed, and when I identify what that boundary is, then I understand what I value more. And there's so much incredible information coming from that, but it's like, don't feel. It's not allowed. Yeah, but like, I was listening to this study where they took people and they. They wired them up so that they could be, like, reading what was happening in their bodies and in their brains, and they had them play this thing of cards where if. If the cards went this way, they would, like, win money, and so you'd get five bucks every time you finished one or whatever, but if. If the card debt deck finished poorly, you would lose money or whatever. And what they discovered and what they did was they stacked the decks so that they knew which ones were good and which ones were bad or whatever. And then they studied the people who were playing. Playing it, and they watched that people's bodies always recognized a bad deck before their brain did. And. Yeah, that. It's like this.

John Dehlin [03:24:54] Well, this is the Jonathan Haidt thing that the elephant and the writer do you know about.

Holly Laurent [03:24:57] No.

John Dehlin [03:24:58] Righteous mind.

Holly Laurent [03:24:59] No.

John Dehlin [03:24:59] Oh, I interrupted you.

Holly Laurent [03:25:01] No, go.

John Dehlin [03:25:02] I'm vibing with you.

Holly Laurent [03:25:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:25:03] Jonathan Haidt is a sociologist or social psychologist who. Who. Who studied the brain, and he realized that. That. That people think that they act logically and rationally, but they've, like, studied the speed of emotion versus the speed of logic and. And cognition. And they found that we register our emotion before we. We. We Even. Our brain starts. Our. Our. Our cognitive brain even starts functioning. Functioning. Yeah. And that we usually. We arrive at our position emotionally, and then we use logic or reason to justify the position that we arrived at emotionally.

Holly Laurent [03:25:45] Wow.

John Dehlin [03:25:45] And he calls that the writer and the elephant. Because the elephant is your emotions, it's your amygdala, but the writer is your cerebral frontal cortex or your emotion.

Holly Laurent [03:25:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:25:53] And if they're in competition, it's always the elephant that's going to win. So we're, we're mostly emotionally driven creatures now. There's good and bad to that, Right, Sure. Because religious people, they'll say all the time is the Holly Ghost, it's the spirit, but that's their emotion and they can justify all sorts of horrible things.

Holly Laurent [03:26:11] Right.

John Dehlin [03:26:11] Maybe you're saying something slightly different though. There's a danger in relying on emotion and there's a beauty of it in a power. It's both.

Holly Laurent [03:26:19] Right, right, right. Well, it's also just to turn us against our own bodies. You know, in the church that your body is wrong and weak and bad and it's going to. Its desires will lead you astray and get you sent straight to hell. And all that like, has made us miss out on so much good information that's coming from our bodies. And the more we override it and say no, no, that has to be wrong. Yeah, we're only doing ourselves a disservice. It's interesting. Also, speaking of putting wires on the old brain and seeing what's going on, I, I won. I read a, I think this was on a TED radio hour where they were taught, they wired up these jazz musicians brains and had them improvise with their instruments. And they found that when the players entered a flow state of like pure improvisation that their prefrontal cortex went completely dark. Like the part of your brain that is interested in like being appropriate and correct and you know, all that stuff, it went dark. And then like the creative parts of your brain, like the autobiographical, like self expressive creative parts started to like light up like fireworks. And, and that so much of that, like being in a state of exploration has to be about like, there's no right or wrong. Because the way jazz works, even Miles Davis would always say, don't play what's there, play what's not there, there. And the way that they're improvising together is that we're all riffing on this one thing and then somebody will like do a weird off note that doesn't fit in. And instead of being like, whoa, dude, get back with the program. We all go, oh yeah, we're going that direction. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so shutting off the like there, there is no correct.

John Dehlin [03:28:10] Yeah, yeah, well I could talk to you forever. It's probably time to, to be drawn near a close. We're almost at four hour mark.

Holly Laurent [03:28:23] Oh my gosh.

John Dehlin [03:28:26] This has been so lovely. I want to kind of end with this. Like. Well, let me ask you, do you feel like you have a tribe with mega. Like you know your listeners, you meet your listeners, you connect with your listeners, you have lunch with your listeners, you correspond with your listeners, you make friends with your listeners, you get feedback from your listeners. Listeners. Do you feel like you're kind of part of a tribe? A little bit, yeah.

Finding Tribe, Community, and Meaning Without Religion

Holly Laurent [03:28:49] A little bit. Like from the feedback we get. And then also now that we're doing Twitch streams and people can be engaging with us in the chat, I feel like. And we're on Discord and Patreon.

John Dehlin [03:29:02] I feel like people have your own Discord server.

Holly Laurent [03:29:04] Yeah. And so I feel like jumping on there now. Like there's a lot more engagement and it's really fun because, because I, it's. I, I love watching that. Like even when we're not on there, like now they're all starting to like have a community that doesn't require us being there. You know, they're like, it's, it's, it feels like a little community is, it's a fledgling thing and it's cool. Yeah, I really like it.

John Dehlin [03:29:30] Yeah. Well, I love my community too. And I think about a lot of what I do is try building. But post religious community is hard.

Holly Laurent [03:29:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:29:42] Like, I think that this one of the superpowers of organized religion is community building.

Holly Laurent [03:29:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:29:51] And secular. I don't know that secular folks have figured that out quite as effectively. And maybe it is that we don't need a church like community anymore. But it's definitely something that ex Mormons miss is the tight knit, close knit, meeting regularly, know each other, have our kids play together, youth groups, kind of community casseroles delivered when you're sick. Totally help you move kind of stuff.

Holly Laurent [03:30:18] Totally.

John Dehlin [03:30:19] And the reason why I'm saying that is like, I'm thinking about all the problems in the world right now. Like I lived through the Cold War, I lived through, you know, I was alive during the Vietnam War. Like, I've seen a lot of awful stuff. Tough. Nothing like World War II, obviously, or World War I, but you know, I've seen a lot of hard stuff. I'm, I'm in some ways more afraid now than I've ever been. Not because I think things are horrible now, but it, but for the first time I feel like, whoa, we're, we're like right at a Cliff. Of something really bad happening if we're not really, really careful. Like you said, take, taking. Taking granted. Taking for granted of, of. Of what's got us to where we are now, whether it's democracy or capitalism or whatever. And I think about my post Mormon friends and this, this has got to be like confirmation bias and self selection. But I think of so many of my post Mormon friends as being so wise. They're thoughtful, they're educated, they're compassionate, they're caring. And I think we have important things to contribute. Ex religious people, ex members of high demand religions. Like religion's on the decline, so what's going to rise up and take its place? And if, if things get really bad, religion's just going to grow again. So like, when I talk about like, like a collaboration with me and you and Leah Remini and Sarah Edmondson and.

Holly Laurent [03:31:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:31:55] And whoever. Like, I just wonder, how do we build secular community?

Holly Laurent [03:32:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:32:04] Because if we don't, we're just all living in our houses.

Holly Laurent [03:32:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:32:09] It, what, what led to the, the Supreme Court being stacked? It's a bunch of people that got really organized and focused. Their money and their time and their attention at a goal.

Holly Laurent [03:32:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:32:21] And if liberals or, or like secular people have a harder time doing that. Do you ever think about that?

Holly Laurent [03:32:28] All the time. All the time. And if I didn't have comedy such a niche little thing that like, I kind of got lucky that I still had a community when I got out of mine. But yeah, I hear that as like one of the biggest challenges. And I, and I don't know what the answer is. I don't, I don't know. I, I'm pretty sure it's not going back, but it's starting to feel like. Have you ever been on a roller coaster that unexpectedly starts going backwards and you're like, you know, I wasn't ready for that momentum.

John Dehlin [03:32:58] Yeah.

Holly Laurent [03:32:59] I'm starting to feel that in this, like, even this stuff with row and whatever. Of like. Wait, wait, wait. Genie's not supposed to go back in the middle. Like you can't get the toothpaste back in the tube. But like, this seems like, like it's, that's the, that's the. Exactly like you're feeling. I'm feeling that.

John Dehlin [03:33:14] And, or like, or like you don't go back to tyranny. Like once you go to democracy, you don't go back to authoritarianism.

Jenn Kamp [03:33:22] I know.

John Dehlin [03:33:23] Or once you go through the civil rights movement, you don't go back to like, you know, nationalism and, you know, like Right.

Holly Laurent [03:33:30] But.

John Dehlin [03:33:31] But.

Holly Laurent [03:33:31] But it feels like we are.

John Dehlin [03:33:32] Yeah.

Holly Laurent [03:33:32] And. And, like, if we get back into, like, with this stuff with roe of, like, like, getting women back into that, like, place of, like, disempowering and. And lack of opportunity and all that stuff like that, it's like, if. If we go back, because it feels like there is this now desire for the authoritarian strongman, the. And.

John Dehlin [03:33:56] Yeah. And I'm not saying that, like, religion's bad and secularism is good. You can. There can be. Be abusers, abusive people, patriarchy, racism, sexism, homophobia, misogyny. Obviously, in secular spaces, too, there is, of course. So I'm not trying to say that we're the answer and they're all bad, but at the same time, like, I'm just trying to figure out how we build, like, at this really important moment in time, how do we band together to have an influence for good where, you know, just. Just because religion did so much good to get us to where we are.

Holly Laurent [03:34:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:34:37] Order, structure, community.

Holly Laurent [03:34:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:34:40] Good stuff.

Holly Laurent [03:34:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:34:42] I think about a lot of the stuff that got me to adulthood as being good.

Holly Laurent [03:34:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:34:48] But. But, like, it's unambiguously racist. Mormonism is unambiguously racist. Sexist, homophobic, phobic, misogynist. Unambiguously. It's in the scriptures. It's written into the Book of Mormon. It's in the Bible. Patriarchy. You just, you know.

Holly Laurent [03:35:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:35:06] So, like, how do we build a better world without religion? How do we do it? Because, you know.

Holly Laurent [03:35:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:35:15] How do we do it?

Holly Laurent [03:35:16] Well, we're storytelling creatures. Right.

John Dehlin [03:35:18] Yeah.

Holly Laurent [03:35:18] Very. You. So. So because we are. Are an animal that develops speech and that. That language is the. The. The tool of our thoughts, and. And when we speak, it is always in story. I was talking to my friend who's. I really. I'm thinking about going and getting my PhD in linguistics because I'm so fascinated by the fact that, like, we mentioned this a little bit in the first episode, but that everything we say is metaphor and we don't think about that, but it is. Like, it's. Even if you say, how you doing, Holly? And I'm like, it's been a tough day. Like, even me just saying it's been tough. Like, that word tough is like, oh, yeah, you're like, I get that. I'm. I'm.

Jenn Kamp [03:36:02] I'm.

Holly Laurent [03:36:02] I'm following the story of what that means. Everything is metaphor. But

Jenn Kamp [03:36:09] I.

Holly Laurent [03:36:12] I think it might be in, like, storytelling and listening. I. I'm serious. Like, my husband started working with the LGBTQ center in Hollywood. They have a, A, A branch called the Leadership Lab where they do deep canvassing. Like, they went into Orange county and they were trying to flip Orange county from red to Blue in 2018. And the way they did it was by going door too. And my brother would. My brother, My husband would always be with. Paired with, like, usually, like a younger trans kid or queer kid. And they would go to door and they would just ask people. They would never say, like, here's who I'm voting for, or, you need to, like, see things the way I see it. All they would do is ask people their stories and just get people talking about it of, like, oh, I'm actually caring for my grandson right now. He moved in. He lives here, or whatever. Like, and then they would be like, okay, what are ways in which, like, you need support with that as your current reality, and how does that look? And they would just simply. And a lot of times they would ask people, you know, like, where are you on the whole? Like, because Prop 8 and all of that happened in Cal. So they. And people would usually be like, I don't know any gay people. And so then there would be a kid standing right there who would be. Be like, well, I'm. I'm gay and I'm a woman who's married to a woman. And these are the things. And we just tell their story a little bit. And like, through story, which is really, I guess ultimately what religion is too. Like, through story is usually the only way you get someone to change their mind. And, and, and through listening, like, that goes back to where we ended yesterday of like. But the reason I feel like we're maybe in danger is because it's such a reply culture now. And we're, we're only listening to reply and to, like, push our agenda and our opinion. But really listening to someone makes it a lot harder to, to hate them. Sort of like the way Tom Hanks played the, you know, humanizing people. But it's. It's a good question, John. And it's a scary. It's a scary, very, maybe unanswerable question, but that is, I think, what has to happen. And I mean, I think the last thing that the GOP should be worried about is the Democratic Party, because it's like the way they just can't get. Yeah, it's, It's, It's. It feels very tenuous right now. And it's interesting for me to hear you say that you, you are feeling the tenuous, like, feels like we're at A precipice. That's scary.

John Dehlin [03:39:06] Well, I'm. I'm reminded again what Kara sent to me or Maria said that. I told you, it's not that religion is the problem. It's religious fundamentalism that's the problem. And it's not that getting rid of religion is the answer. It's. It's promoting empathy and listening. Listening. And so I'm combining the empathy part that Kara Santa Maria said with the listening part that I've learned from you. And I'm starting to piece together just, you know, those thoughts that we just. How do we promote listening? How do we promote storytelling?

Holly Laurent [03:39:42] Right.

John Dehlin [03:39:42] How do we promote empathy? Because. Because debates and, and one minute tick tock gotchas and, and YouTube response videos. Videos.

Holly Laurent [03:39:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:39:52] They're not going to get us there.

Holly Laurent [03:39:53] Right. Yeah, right. I heard. Speaking of empathy, I was reading something recently of how, you know, how when we. I think this is fascinating for us as creatures. You know how when some, when somebody starts talking to you and they go, I'm having a really hard time. And they. The, the musicality of their voice changes to reflect like the, the emotion that they're experiencing. The, the immediate instinct in the human species is to. When somebody goes, I'm having a hard time, we go, oh. And we mirror it. Because what we're doing, even unconsciously, is we're mirroring the, the sound so that it can trigger that information to our body and tell us what this feels like so that we start feeling the same thing that person is feeling and that we, as, as creatures, like unconsciously, our bodies have learned how to recreate the emotion inside of ourselves so that we can feel what they're feeling in that moment. Isn't that fascinating?

John Dehlin [03:41:00] And it may also communicate to them that we're empathizing with them if we match their tone. Right, right. It's both. It's bidirectional, I'm guessing.

Holly Laurent [03:41:08] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:41:10] Interesting. Yeah, it's pretty beautiful. Well, we need more of it. Yeah. Well, I am just like. I have to give you an award. You get an award for participating in the most self indulgent podcast. Two days of podcasting that I've ever done. Because all this was was just me talking to you about whatever I effing felt like talking to you about.

Final Reflections and Farewell

Holly Laurent [03:41:30] Good.

John Dehlin [03:41:31] Yay. And it's kind of improv, so it's kind of on brand.

Jenn Kamp [03:41:35] All right.

John Dehlin [03:41:37] Anyway, you're freaking awesome.

Holly Laurent [03:41:38] You're freaking awesome.

John Dehlin [03:41:39] Holly La La. It's been so fun to meet you. And I hope, I hope this Isn't the last time we can talk or collaborate? I know Jen loves you. I know you'd love to meet my friend Alan Mount, who's in improv, I think. Cara Barell, my. My other friend.

Holly Laurent [03:41:57] Hook me up.

John Dehlin [03:41:57] Let's do a party in la. Can we do, like, a ex religious party in la?

Holly Laurent [03:42:02] Yes, come to la.

Jenn Kamp [03:42:03] La.

Holly Laurent [03:42:03] And I think we should do one. We could pretty easily put this together and pilot up the kind of, like, ex. Like, coming out of a cult. Coming out of a cult. And we can make it, like, engaging and funny and interesting and. And encouraging.

Jenn Kamp [03:42:23] That's.

Holly Laurent [03:42:24] That's the stuff I live for.

John Dehlin [03:42:25] All right.

Holly Laurent [03:42:25] All right, let's do it.

John Dehlin [03:42:26] Okay. We'll follow up.

Holly Laurent [03:42:28] Okay.

John Dehlin [03:42:28] Anyway, the podcast is.

Holly Laurent [03:42:30] Is mega.

John Dehlin [03:42:31] It can be found where?

Holly Laurent [03:42:33] Everywhere you listen to podcasts. M E G A an improvised satire from a fictional megachurch.

John Dehlin [03:42:38] So it's on Spotify, it's on Apple,

Holly Laurent [03:42:40] podcasts, all the places, everything put in mega. And then the. The little tile icon image thing is it's black with yellow letters that just says mega.

John Dehlin [03:42:51] And the URL for your website is. Oh, you have your own Hollywood. Laurel.

Holly Laurent [03:42:57] Laurel dot com. And I'm@holly Laurent dot com. And. And megathepodcast dot com.

John Dehlin [03:43:02] Megathepodcast dot com.

Holly Laurent [03:43:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:43:04] All right, well, thank you so much for sharing everything with my listeners. It's been amazing. You are brilliant, funny, and a sweetheart. Is that. Is that condescending?

Holly Laurent [03:43:17] That's awesome. You are. You are sensitive, kind, and courageous.

John Dehlin [03:43:29] Oh, wait, you're those things, too. Can I add those to the thing?

Holly Laurent [03:43:33] I think you're the things I. You said about me, too.

John Dehlin [03:43:36] No, you are. But I said that you.

Jenn Kamp [03:43:39] No.

Holly Laurent [03:43:39] Yeah, but no, you are.

John Dehlin [03:43:40] Wait. Okay. All right, Holly, this has been fun. Thanks.

Holly Laurent [03:43:44] Thanks so much.

John Dehlin [03:43:44] Can't wait to meet Greg, right?

Holly Laurent [03:43:45] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [03:43:46] You'll love him.

John Dehlin [03:43:46] Yeah. All right.

Holly Laurent [03:43:48] Right.

John Dehlin [03:43:48] See you soon.

Holly Laurent [03:43:49] Go, go enjoy your movie.

John Dehlin [03:43:51] All right, I will.

Holly Laurent [03:43:51] Take care.

John Dehlin [03:43:52] Have fun. Drive. Have a nice wedding.

Holly Laurent [03:43:54] Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:43:54] You're going to a wedding.

Holly Laurent [03:43:55] Going to a wedding from an ex Mormon who I love.

John Dehlin [03:43:57] All right.

Holly Laurent [03:43:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:43:58] Okay. All right, well, thanks, listeners and viewers, for. If. If any of you. Here's the deal. If any of you made it through all seven or eight hours of my interview with Holly, you are invited to a special LA part of Mormon Stories. People and exvangelical mega people all getting together in la, We'll. We'll. We'll charter a bus and we'll all go together. And of course, Steven Kovalenko, because you made all this happen, you get to drive the bus and you'll come with us. Anyway, thanks for listening. Thanks for your support. We couldn't do this without you. And I'm not even going to do my normal ending. Take care. Be kind to each other, love each other, each other, listen to each other, empathize with each other, and be good to each other. And we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Check out Mega the podcast. Take care, everybody. See ya.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.