Welcome and Introductions on Facebook Live

John Dehlin [00:00:28] So, hello, Facebook Live listeners. This is John Dehlin. It's July 5, 2017, and we've got about 31 people who have joined us so far on Facebook Live. Hey, Megan. Hey, Cody. There's Cam and Doug and Rick. Rick, I'm going to see you in a day or two. Becky. Hey, Becky. Kerry, lots of cool people have joined us. Logan's joining us from North Carolina. Hey, everybody. Hey, Megan. So Bar Campolo is super cool. And I'm interviewed. Well, Bart's interviewing me today. Bart's dad is named Tony Campolo. And I've heard Tony Campolo described as sort of like in the vein of Billy Graham, just a nationally known, probably internationally known evangelical pastor. And Bart, as I understand the story, and I'll be interviewing Bart for Mormon stories in a month or so, so we'll get the full skinny then. But Bart became sort of a youth pastor and started to get his own national or international following. But then he had this unfortunate experience of losing his faith as an evangelical minister and it rocked his world because all of a sudden it was not easy for him to do what he had done because he it's kind of hard to be a Christian pastor when you're not sure if you believe in Christ. So Barth has retooled his ministry to be targeting, you know, humanists, secular people, non religious people. And he's done it through creating communities in places like Cincinnati. But of most recent sort of time frame, Bart moved to Southern California and became the humanist chaplain at University of Southern California where he tried to create community and administer, and I would say, by his account, successfully created, and I believe him when he says it, a secular community with humanist students and staff faculty at University of Southern California. I met Bart Campolo when I traveled to the Sunday assembly national conference with Steve Holbrook and Michael Nicolaisson and Christine Jepsen Clark and Allison Udall. We all went to Atlanta to check out Sunday assembly to see if we wanted to bring Sunday assembly to Utah. And we ended up bringing Oasis instead of Sunday Assembly. But Bart was one of the featured speakers there. And I was blown away by Bart's knowledge and his charisma and his ability to speak to the issues that I was just starting to scratch. So Bart and I have been in touch, but it's taken us too long and it's been my fault to actually do some type of podcast together. So Bart started his podcast in that time. Bart also just recently published a book, and I'm holding the book up now. The book is called why I Left why I Stayed. It's a book that he co authored with his father, Tony Campolo. And it's a really cool set of dialogues where they go back and forth and discuss, respectively, why Bart left and why Tony has decided to stay. And so Bart's doing all sorts of cool stuff, and he's just a general, really thoughtful, inspiring guy. So he started a podcast, wrote this book, and has been shaking things up. And he asked me if I'd come on his podcast. So that's what this is. So even though we're broadcasting this through Mormon Stories podcast's Facebook page, this is going to be recorded as Bart's own podcast on his podcast called Humanize Me. And that's the name of Bart's podcast. And from there, I'm going to be interviewing Bart maybe in a month or so as well, for Mormon Stories. And we're collaborating potentially on a new project that we, you know, that we're thinking about trying to work on together. So without any further ado, we've got 41 listeners, which is not bad. Bart Campolo, I turned the tables over to you.

Bart Campolo [00:05:05] Well, thank you. And, you know, like, before I start podcasting, I just want to say hi to your peeps, man. This whole Facebook Live thing is completely new to me. I don't even have a Facebook of my own, so. But I'm fascinated. And just when you started saying hello to people, I was like, there's real people out there. And so the idea that you can have this kind of, like, live interaction with people kind of both excites me and scares me a little bit. But I'm just so glad to be talking with you again. And so, you know, and so, you know, for your people, one of the things to know is, like, we both came to that Sunday assembly gathering excited to see what they were about. Like, neither one of us are Sunday assembly people. But that seemed to be at the time and still is one of the most sort of popular forms of secular people who are trying to figure out what fellowship would look like. What would it look like to try to create a community that's built around values and shared values instead of, like, dogma or doctrine, you know, or supernaturalism, but just saying, like, hate. If this life is the only one that we have, how do we make the most of it? And who have sort of collectively come to the conclusion that the way to make that there may not be any meaning to life, but that there can be a lot of meaning in life if we create it by loving each other and by Helping to make things better for other people and by cultivating a sense of kind of gratitude and wonder just. Just for the privilege of being alive. And so we went to that thing sort of going like, wow, maybe this is this thing that we're looking for. And I think we both kind of came away going sort of, but not exactly. And the thing is that you and I both, a lot of the people that are in that Sunny assembly thing, they've been secular their whole lives. They never believed in any kind of form of supernaturalism. But you were a heavy duty Mormon, and I was a heavy duty evangelical Christian. And so for us, like, our. Our taste buds are very refined when it comes to fellowship, when it comes to community, when it comes to kind of transcendent moments. And so we were sort of like, yeah, you guys, I think you. You know what you're. You kind of want to be church for secular people. But it felt like they were keeping in all the parts of church that I didn't like, and they were throwing out all the stuff I thought was the best. And so I still love watching what they're doing. I'm always hope. I think that they're great for people, that that's what they're looking for. But you and I, coming out of that, were sort of like, what are we looking for? And, you know, my guess is that the people that listen to your podcast, like the people that are overhearing us on Facebook, they're probably all people that are looking for something on the other side of their faith or on the other side of their Mormon faith or their evangelical faith or, you know, now I meet people on the other side of their Scientology faith or on the other side of their Islamic faith. Like, there are X. Everything's out there. And so anyway, to all of, you know, so. So that's who we are. We're two guys who come out of faith backgrounds, lost our supernatural credulity, but still had a heart for community. And still had a heart for the intentional pursuit of goodness.

John Dehlin [00:08:54] Yeah.

Bart Campolo [00:08:55] You know, okay, so, John, so, like, so that's where. So now all your people know who's. Who we're talking to.

John Dehlin [00:09:01] That's right. And now the Bart Campolo. And if you. And if you go to Google and you Google Bart Campolo, there's a lot of cool stuff that comes up. Bart's been covered all over the place. Newspapers, magazines, New York Times, tons of podcasts. He's super well known outside of, you know, Mormondom. And so, yeah, Bart, you've done a Lot of great work.

Bart Campolo [00:09:26] Yeah. You know, and that's the funny thing is, like, whenever I meet an ex Mormon, I always say, hey, do you know my friend John Dehlin? And they're like, oh, absolutely. Like, I have not. I have yet to meet an ex Mormon that doesn't know you. And yet, like, if, like, if I go to my. My secular kids at USC and say John Dehlin, they're like, what? You know, same thing for me, like, in evangelical Christianity, if you said Bart Campolo, or even more so, my dad, Tony Campolo, everybody knows him.

John Dehlin [00:09:53] Right?

Bart Campolo [00:09:53] But, like, then you go to a Mormon thing, and they're like, tony who? So, okay, so. So now we'll jump in and like. And like. And now, like, I hope your people aren't offended that I sort of act like it's my show.

John Dehlin [00:10:06] Take over. Take it over, brother.

Who Is Bart Campolo and What Does He Do

Bart Campolo [00:10:08] All right, so here's the thing. We just introduced ourselves to your people. My people still don't know who you are.

John Dehlin [00:10:14] Right.

Bart Campolo [00:10:15] And so I never know how to do these introductions. So, like, I'll tell people stuff about you before I bring in this podcast, but for now, I guess I go, like, when somebody says to you, hey, John, what do you do? What do you tell them? What do you do?

John Dehlin [00:10:33] So I think I'm most well known for a podcast that I started in 2005 called Mormon Stories. So it's the longest running and most popular Mormon themed podcast in the world. It's 12 years running, and I have over 760, almost 770 hours worth of content. And Mormon Stories was started with the intention of celebrating, exploring, and challenging Mormon culture and also the LDS Church. So that's my bread and butter. That podcast has tens of thousands of listeners at any given episode, and it's

Bart Campolo [00:11:17] almost all interviews, isn't it? Like, you interview people who. Everyone I've heard is on the other side of Mormonism. Like, they're all ex Mormons.

John Dehlin [00:11:27] No, it's actually. I mean, a lot of the people that I interview have either left the church or leaving the church, but there's a lot of true believers that I've interviewed. There's a lot of people trying to grow a liberal or progressive space within the LDS Church, within the ranks. And so it varies. Just recently, I've been doing a series on people trying to be progressive, liberal Mormons inside the church. I've interviewed apologists, people who defend the church. So it just depends. But definitely, you know, over 50% of the people I've interviewed are people who have left the church.

Bart Campolo [00:12:05] But what's funny is when people leave the Mormon Church, they're still fascinated with the Mormon Church, aren't they?

John Dehlin [00:12:12] Yeah, yeah. There's a. There's a sort of a snide saying or meme that has been coined within Mormonism. You know, they leave the church, but they can't leave it alone. And we. Maybe you have an analog to that in evangelical Christianity, but we actually did an episode on that meme just recently. Because what orthodox Mormons want are you just to disappear. Because it's one thing for there to be Sam Harris or Christopher Hitchens or Richard Dawkins out there attacking religion. That just makes Mormons more resolute to be believers. But when someone who's been on the inside, someone who served a mission, someone who served in, who's married in the temple, someone who dedicated their lives to the church.

Bart Campolo [00:13:02] Wore the underwear.

John Dehlin [00:13:03] Yeah, exactly. When they wore the underwear and they start doubting and questioning, it can become a real threat to other people who are still believing. And so the church just wants us to disappear. And we're not going to disappear because, number one, truth matters. Number two, we still have family members and friends who are in it. Number three, we love our people. Number four, we don't want to see more harm caused to people. We don't want to see more ignorance perpetuating. We don't want people to be fooled. We want people to be as healthy as possible. Don't forget the LGBT youth suicides that are happening at an epidemic rate within Mormonism. Don't forget all the marriages that are being destroyed when one person believes and one person loses their belief and the believing spouse takes the children and divorces the non believer. Like, all that pain and suffering and ignorance and suicide is sort of unacceptable. And so Mormon Stories, the Open Stories foundation, all the work that we do in my nonprofit and our nonprofit is to promote openness and awareness, open discussion, to prevent harm, to alleviate suffering, and to promote growth for transitioning and post Mormons.

Bart Campolo [00:14:15] If somebody said to you, because people ask me this, sort of like, what do you want? Like, at the end of the day, do you just. Do you want to destroy the church? You know, like some of my Christian friends are saying, like, hey, are you against us? Like, do you wish this movement would collapse? Like, what do you do people ask you that? Like, what do you. Like, what's your end game? Like, what do you want?

John Dehlin [00:14:39] No, you know, believing Mormons just label me as an anti Mormon and say, you know, tell people to stay away. I think most of my listeners know what I'm about. But if I had to summarize it, this would be it. Let's say I could have a magic wand and I could wave that magic wand, and every Mormon in the world and everyone who would ever investigate the church with its missionaries, would know the basic facts about our church's history. That Joseph Smith, you know, every time he told the story of God's visit to him, the story changed significantly. That the Book of Mormon has all these problems as a historical document. That the Book of Abraham, which is another part of our scripture, is not at all what it's claimed to be, a translation from Papyru. It's not that Joseph smith had over 30 wives, that many of these wives were in their teens, one was as young as a couple, were as young as 14. That he married other men's wives. That he would send a man on a mission to, you know, Europe or the Middle east and then proposition his wife to be his own borough wife. That he propositioned probably 20 women before he ever told his wife that he was doing polygamy, that he was lying about polygamy. All these problems with Mormonism, I would just want every Mormon to know these things. Now, from the outside, you may think, well, that's all common knowledge. We evangelicals have known, you know, all these problems with Mormonism for decades. The truth is, to this day, most Mormons, most active, orthodox believing Mormons don't know any of the things that I just told you because the church controls information and it controls people's thoughts. So if I could wave a magic wand, everyone knew, number one, all the problems with Mormon history and its truth claims. And then, number two, people were made aware of all of the damage that the church causes to people. Again, the divorces, the LGBT suicides, the depression, all that stuff. If that could just be fully known, then I actually have no problem if people decide, well, it doesn't matter. I. I still want to be Mormon. It makes me happy. I can accept the collateral damage because I think it does more good than bad. I've got no problem with that. But I do have a problem with people giving 10% of their income, five to 20 hours a week of their lives, their children, to an organization that they actually don't know even many of the basic details about the organization because it's been kept from them or, or because they've been scared into fearing any external source or piece of information that would threaten their orthodox belief. That's kind of what I have a problem with. That's on the One hand. And then. So in addition to full awareness and full disclosure, I think the second thing would be for all the people who are impacted by Mormonism in a negative way, that they would have resources to find community, to support each other, to learn that they're not alone, to learn that they're not broken and evil, and then in some way to heal and grow beyond orthodox Mormonism. And whether they stay in the church or leave it, we as an organization are neutral on that fact. We're fine if people stay. We just want them to stay fully informed and to be able to find joy and happiness, whether it be in or out of the church. So that's maybe longer than you wanted a description.

Bart Campolo [00:18:20] It's so funny. I was so thrilled because I'm thinking, like, I get all these emails from podcast listeners who are like, you always interrupt your guests. You talk too much. You never let anyone else get a word in edgewise. I'm like, not this week.

John Dehlin [00:18:33] Keep going, brother. I'll try and shorten it up a little bit.

Bart Campolo [00:18:36] No, no, no. Let me ask you a question, though, because, you know, it's funny. I just had lunch with a guy today who, an ex Catholic guy who's longing, missing the church and missing community, but. And doesn't know where to find. And we had this whole conversation about how he could build and create fellowship for himself outside of that. And, you know, one of the things he said is, he said, it's so exciting to talk to you. He said, because just seeing somebody who's done it makes me think I can do it. He said, you know, he said. And he was talking about how that he was listening to David Blaine, the magician, talking about how long you can hold your breath. And he said, David Blaine said that when you see somebody else do this amazing thing, he said, you can actually hold your breath much longer. And I think it's the same way about creating fellowship and finding hope and meaning on the other side of faith. When you see somebody doing it, you go like, it's not rocket science, you know? But here's the thing is that he was saying, why do you. You're so nice to the church. Like, you don't have one of those negative church things. And I said, well, part of that's just not my temperament. Part of it is I never got hurt by the church, and I love all those people that are still in church. Part of it is just bad strategy. Like, if you want to rescue people from a bad way of thinking, you don't wave a flag saying, hey, you're stupid. That's a bad way of thinking. As you approach them, you know, you just show them an alternative. You just show them a better way of life. And a lot of times people are just like, well, gosh, I wasn't that excited about the believing stuff anyway. But the one problem that I have, and he brought this up to me, he said, the one thing that makes me think I can't sit still is original sin. He said, they're still teaching kids that just for being human, that just for having sexual desires, that just for wanting to eat and having to crap and just being a human being, they are worthy of damnation, that they are objects of wrath, that they deserve to burn in hell forever except for the grace of God, unless somebody saves them. That's what they deserve. And he said, I just can't. I just can't stomach that. Does Mormonism teach that to its kids, that they are sort of unworthy by default?

Mormon Theology and Why People Leave

John Dehlin [00:20:56] Yeah. So, interestingly, when Joseph Smith, he wrote this letter early in his ministry that tried to describe what the main tenets of Mormonism were, and they've changed a lot. But when he wrote the letter, one of the main 13 articles of faith for our church basically said, we believe that man will be punished for their own sins and not for Adam's transgressions. So Joseph Smith rejected. He rejected original sin from the very start. So technically, Mormons don't believe in original sin, but it's still very much a fact that everyone violates the church's commandments or rules throughout their lifetime. So whether or not we're born with sin, Mormons believe that by the time you're eight, which is when you're baptized, you're sinning within a few hours of getting baptized, and thus you still need Christ's atonement.

Bart Campolo [00:22:00] So, yeah, there's plenty of shame, like you're human. And that's not good.

John Dehlin [00:22:05] Oh, yeah. Yeah. So all that stuff in the scriptures about even if you have bad thoughts, that. That's almost like committing adultery itself. If you. If you lust upon a woman, that's. You've already committed adultery in your heart, I think that's in the Bible. I think it's in the Book of Mormon as well. And, yeah, and if you masturbate, you're sinning. If you look at porn, it's, you know, it's a revolting, disgusting habit. Within Mormonism, if you touch a girl's boob or if she touches you where she shouldn't. You know, Mormons teach that sexual transgression is a sin next to murder. And so they pick these sins that are these sins that are going to be pervasive among teenagers who are normal with hormones. And they liken those sins unto murder. And then even if you're not sexually transgressing, but you're simply looking at pornography and masturbating in the privacy of your own home, and let's just say you're doing it once every three weeks. Mormons are conditioned to call that an addiction, to view themselves as addicts much like a drug addict would with, would sort of think of themselves. They'll talk about themselves in terms of sobriety. You know, I've gone three weeks without masturbating. I've gone eight weeks, I'm sober. I've fallen off the wagon. But yeah, even, even Mormon girls, they're, you know, they're told, cover up your bodies, cover up your shoulders. Mormons don't, you know, devout Mormons never show their shoulders because if they show their shoulders, then they're causing young men to have dirty thoughts. And then if the young man, heaven forbid, touches the girl, then in some way she's complicit because she caused the young Mormon man to. And then even Mormon teachings about purity.

Bart Campolo [00:23:55] Is it all sex?

John Dehlin [00:23:57] It's a lot about sex. So if you're in Sunday school, they'll take a piece of gum and they'll chew it. The teacher will, and then take out the gum and pass it around and say, how many of you want to chew this gum? And well, that's what happens if you ever have sex before you're married. You're like a piece of chewed gum. What man is going to want you as a young woman if you've chewed that, you know, if your gum has been chewed or whatever they damaged. And so yeah, there's just infinite ways that Mormons can feel guilt and shame. It's piled on a lot of it's around sex, but it can be about anything really. And it wreaks havoc. Of course, if you're gay or lesbian, you're viewed as an apostate, you're viewed as a pervert. You know, Mormonism puts homosexuality next to, you know, child molestation and murder in terms of severity. In some ways, it makes even same sex marriage worse of a sin than murder or child molestation. And so of course, that's why we have three times the national average of youth suicide in Utah, because homosexuality is viewed so abominably. So, yeah, the list is long.

Bart Campolo [00:25:15] Yeah, see, and that's before you get into like caffeine and, you know, and like greed or like, you know, getting angry at your mom and all those other things.

John Dehlin [00:25:27] Tea is a sin in Mormonism. Coffee is a sin in Mormonism. Some Mormons are taught that Coca Cola, you know, caffeinated beverages are a sin. So yeah, the list is long and deep.

Bart Campolo [00:25:38] So you don't need original sin. You can accumulate enough on your need

John Dehlin [00:25:42] about 12 minutes after your baptism and you've already got your sins.

Bart Campolo [00:25:47] So then here's. So like I say, what do you do? You say like, well, I run this podcast and this podcast is, it seems like it has the dual aim of educating Mormons. Like, here's all the stuff you don't know and if you want to stay Mormon after, you know, all this stuff, great. But like, I'm going to tell you a bunch of stories about people that learned this and how it changed their lives and how, you know, and then, and then it seems like the other goal of your podcast is to sort of have, you know, and the thing is like, that's the weird thing. Ex Mormons, they're, they're really nice too. And like, and they tend to, you know, what I notice is that the tone and the language of the people, the ex Mormons on your show, they remind me of all the Mormons I know. They're like these lovely family people with like six kids and they, you know, they're going camping and like, they're just very family oriented people. And so it sounds like, it seems like the other agenda is to show people that there's hope and that there can be meaning and that there can be joy and that there can be friendship and love on the other side. Yeah.

The Mormon Stories Community and Its Members

John Dehlin [00:26:55] Yep. And the only thing I'd add is that a lot of our listeners are still active in the church. Either they, they can't leave because their spouse will divorce them, or they can't leave because they'll lose their job or they'll lose their source of income, or they'll disappoint their parents or be cut out of their will, or they'll lose all their friends, or they don't want to be viewed as a disappointment. Those are some of the reasons. And then also just they don't know where else to go. Because for me, I tried the Episcopal Church, I tried the Unitary Universalists, I tried Presbyterian, and none of it felt good to me. Just like, I think you can relate to that. And so they just don't have a better option. And so a good chunk of our listeners and supporters of the nonprofit, they are still in the church. And so for them, what we do is there are two other. There are two other podcasts that the Open Stories foundation sponsors. One's called A Thoughtful Faith and one's called Mormon Matters. And both those podcasts are specifically targeted to people who are trying to stay in the church. Maybe as agnostics, maybe as semi believers, maybe as complete atheists, maybe they hate the church, but they just.

Bart Campolo [00:28:10] It's like Radio Free Europe. Like, we know you're in there. We know.

John Dehlin [00:28:13] Yeah, exactly.

Bart Campolo [00:28:14] We're going to try to help you survive.

John Dehlin [00:28:16] And there's some who just still find spiritual value in the church, even if they don't really believe all of it or even if they're not orthodox. So for them, it'd be like reformed Jews. They value the ritual, they value some of the spirituality. They just don't buy a lot of the truth claims. So we do target them, but then we also target the majority, which are, you know, I don't know if people know this, but of all the people in the world right now who were ever baptized Mormon, and let's just say there's 16 million of them, only about a third self identify as Mormons today. And so the majority of people baptized Mormon, two thirds leave the church, and that's actually accelerating. So, yeah, a good chunk of our listeners are people who just can't make the church work.

Bart Campolo [00:29:05] Okay. And like, you know, you and I, one of the reasons that we connect is because we stay up at night dreaming about creating communities for people where they can thrive and they can pursue goodness and they can find a sense of mission and purpose and belonging and transcendence, even. Like, you know, by transcendence, I don't mean magic or supernaturalism. I just mean, like, that. That exciting moment where you go, like, I'm part of something bigger than myself. Like, you know, it can happen at a concert, it can happen in nature where you just go like, oh, my gosh, the universe is gigantic and I'm part of it, and I'm not the most important thing, but I'm connected to something that's really beautiful and amazing. And so, like, you and I sit up at night trying to figure out how to make that happen. And you've tried a few things.

John Dehlin [00:29:58] Yeah, we have.

Bart Campolo [00:29:59] How's it going?

John Dehlin [00:30:02] Well.

Bart Campolo [00:30:04] What have you found out?

John Dehlin [00:30:07] Yeah, well, thank you for asking. So I'll just. I'll talk a little bit about our history. So. So I started the podcast in 2005, and by 2007, 2008, it really was taking off. We had thousands and thousands of listeners when Facebook came on the scene. I remember Facebook coming on the scene around. Oh, when did Facebook come on the scene? Anyway, at some point, Facebook created groups. And around 2010, 2011, we just decided, you know, for many, many years, I just tried to answer every email that I could, have phone conversations with as many people as I could. People would travel from all over the world to want to meet with me for lunch or dinner. And I had thousands and literally thousands and Thousands, probably over 10,000 phone calls or email exchanges or lunches or dinners. And I'm seeing you shake your head.

Bart Campolo [00:31:04] That's my life right now.

John Dehlin [00:31:06] Yep. And at some point, I just realized I can't answer all these emails. I can't support everybody, and there's just way more pain than I'm able to support. So in 2011, when Facebook created these groups, we actually created 100 Facebook groups all over the world. You know, the Boise Mormon Stories Facebook group, Dallas Mormon Stories Facebook group, London England Facebook group. And this wasn't the.

Bart Campolo [00:31:36] Just so these people could meet each other and find each other so they

John Dehlin [00:31:39] could support each other. Yeah. So instead of calling me, they could meet in a coffee shop or, you know, at a McDonald's or in someone's home and start having book clubs, start having dinner groups, playgroups where wives could get together while their kids played together. That was the idea. And Mormon Stories wasn't the first Mormon group to do that. There's a whole website called Post Mormon that's not active like it used to be, but at the time, it was a really one of the main go to websites for kind of alternative Mormons. And they created some of these support groups as well. And it was really interesting because these groups started taking off and some of the groups within a very short amount of time had, oh, let's just say hundreds of members. And at this point now, today, some of these groups have over a thousand members, and they have weekly activities, and it's really, really powerful. So that was one thing that we did. And I just want to make sure

Bart Campolo [00:32:45] you were going to tell me why it didn't work.

John Dehlin [00:32:47] I'm getting there. I'm getting there.

Bart Campolo [00:32:48] Oh, it did work.

John Dehlin [00:32:50] Well, it worked and it didn't. So I'm going to share with you my screen really quick. I'm going to plug something that's actually really important. Can you see my screen?

Bart Campolo [00:33:00] I can.

John Dehlin [00:33:01] Okay, so we podcast.

Bart Campolo [00:33:04] Can. But, like, I can.

John Dehlin [00:33:05] Okay. So if listeners who can't see this, we've Pulled up a website called mormonspectrum.org and if you go down to the bottom, it says Communities Map in the bottom left.

Bart Campolo [00:33:16] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:33:16] And if you click on Communities Map, what you're gonna see is this world map with all these dots on it, right?

Bart Campolo [00:33:24] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:24] And as you. And as you zoom in to any specific area, I'll zoom into Los Angeles. Okay. What you can see there are all these little green dots in Los Angeles. And as I click on each dot, you'll see, okay, there's a meetup group. It's called the Los Angeles area Post Mormon Ex Mormon meetup Group. So that's a meetup.com site. And then over near San Bernardino, there's an Inland Empire postmo group. And then in Anaheim, there's an ex Mormon group there. And then if you go even closer into Huntington beach area, there's Los Angeles Mormon Stories. Now, that would have been the group that. That we created through Mormon Stories. And there's some in San Diego. There's a bunch in Northern California. All over the United States is dotted with these support groups. And this Mormon Spectrum Project, which is not owned by the Open Source foundation, my nonprofit, but it's a project that we helped incubate and that spun off from our work. It's become this network of hundreds of support groups for liberal, unorthodox, progressive, and post Mormons across the world. So that was kind of stage one, and it has been successful in the sense that it's made so many enduring communities and friendships where people are able to form best friends. Couples were able to find other couples like them.

Bart Campolo [00:35:00] People have shared. They shared. They had the same pathology. They came out of the same scars. They can talk about how their moms don't understand them anymore and won't talk to them.

John Dehlin [00:35:10] Yeah. And they go skiing together and they go biking together, and their kids are friends, and they go boating and camping and fishing and all that stuff. And in that way, it's been a huge success. I can tell you. Thousands and thousands of people across the world who are post Mormons or liberal Mormons have lifelong friendships deeper than any friendship they ever had from their actual Mormon congregations as orthodox Mormons. They now have friends for life from these. From these groups that we created and now that other people are creating. So that. That part has been a huge success.

Bart Campolo [00:35:49] And can I say something like, in evangelical Christianity, there is no analog for that.

John Dehlin [00:35:55] There's not.

Bart Campolo [00:35:56] No, no. As a matter of fact, people write to me off the podcast and say, hey, could you start something like that? You know, and I don't have the bandwidth to do it, but I also have, like, 2,000 listeners. Like, it's not like I don't have 20,000 people.

John Dehlin [00:36:10] Right.

Bart Campolo [00:36:10] But the weird thing is that, like, if I go looking for that, there's no analog for that, where people are like, I'm ex Christian. I think, because the Christian experience is so diverse. Like, you know, like an ex Episcopalian who just doesn't believe in God anymore has had such a different experience than, like, an ex hardcore fundamentalist Baptist in the South. But there's. Yeah, there's no. Like, it's crazy to me.

John Dehlin [00:36:39] So.

Bart Campolo [00:36:39] Okay, so that is amazing. And you say, like, in general, that was a positive thing.

John Dehlin [00:36:46] Oh, he's hugely positive now. There were. We learned important lessons and there were problems, but overall, it was incredibly. And it continues to be incredibly positive.

Post-Mormon Challenges Around Sexuality and Identity

Bart Campolo [00:36:58] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:36:59] Yeah.

Bart Campolo [00:36:59] So that story doesn't have, like, an ugly ending where you go, like, and then they all killed each other.

John Dehlin [00:37:05] No, no, no, no, no. But there are patterns in the experiences of progressive and post Mormons that make community building complicated.

Bart Campolo [00:37:17] Yeah. It's funny because, like, when I was hanging with your people in Atlanta, one of the things they said was when we first started doing this kind of work, we would run these weekend retreats at, like, a hotel, and we would get all these ex Mormons together. And they said it was kind of disastrous sometimes because we. All these people who'd been sexually repressed their whole lives would come together, ostensibly to kind of work through, you know, post faith issues. But he said, like, all of a sudden, like, everybody's sleeping with everybody. Marriages are getting messed up. People are, you know, getting involved in stuff that, you know, that it was, in a sense, like, you took off, like, you threw people too fast. Like, they weren't ready for that kind of, like, hot house environment.

John Dehlin [00:37:56] Yeah. And I have to be. It's. It's kind of. It's a very sensitive thing within my world to talk about this stuff because. Because if I'm being completely honest, the vast majority of post Mormons or liberal progressive Mormons, they don't get involved with any of that stuff. They just live happy, healthy, normal lives where they just go on and have a healthy marriage and their kids are healthy and they find other things to do on Sunday. So it would be completely wrong to say that even a majority of post Mormons follow any path like what you're talking about. Like, personally, I still have never tried alcohol. I'm still married to my wife. I've never been engaged in Those kind of things you're talking about personally, have

Bart Campolo [00:38:48] you quickly become a polyamorous drug dealer?

John Dehlin [00:38:50] I'm not yet a polyamorous drug dealer, no.

Bart Campolo [00:38:53] So you know what, even as I say that, I got to be careful because I, you know, in terms of my background, like, that's a cheap joke, but like, I have polyamorous friends.

John Dehlin [00:39:08] Yeah, me too.

Bart Campolo [00:39:09] And I don't like, and I don't have a moral judgment about that. Like, I'm not sure how that lifestyle is gonna work in our society initially. But like, I don't have a moral judgment. I don't think there's any scientific basis to think that monogamy is their right way to be. And so like, even as I make that joke, I go like, damn it, I'm just doing the same crap that other people do. So I apologize.

John Dehlin [00:39:28] No, I appreciate that. And I've made similar mistakes. We actually did an episode on Mormon stories about non monogamy and I was really tough on it. And a lot of my poly friends, I'll call them, have been and continue to be really upset with me for not treating the issue more delicately. But let's talk about that for just a second because one of the things Mormonism is awful at teaching its members. Mormonism does a lot of great things. Like I graduated from high school never having premarital sex, never trying drugs or alcohol, Student body president, captain of the varsity basketball team, honors national honor society, scholar, full ride scholarships, you know, I was an all American boy, you know, and the Donny Osmond image. What Mormonism has been really carries true for a lot of kids. There's just Mormonism creates a lot of highly educated, wholesome, honest, hard working people. And that's not to say it's better than anyone. I'm just saying I think that I'll stand behind that claim. What Mormonism is not good at doing is teaching moderation to its members. Not only that, but there's something critical thinking. Yeah, potentially for sure.

Bart Campolo [00:40:48] How to evaluate and go like, how's this affecting me? What's going on here?

John Dehlin [00:40:52] Yeah, there's just, there's, there's acceptable sources of information and you pretty much accept them. And then there's non approved sources of information and you just ignore them. And then you go and be a super rich lawyer or super rich doctor or super or super rich engineer and you have lots of kids and you serve the church. But yeah, critical thinking, moderation are not things that Mormonism teaches. So yeah, there's this dynamic that happens when sometimes when people Leave an orthodox religion like Mormonism. Number one is they go, holy crap, if this church isn't what thought it was. I would have made so many different decisions in my life. I would have had multiple sexual partners. I would have found maybe someone who is more emotionally or sexual compat, sexually compatible with me. I would have tried alcohol and drugs and in college and experimented with that stuff.

Bart Campolo [00:41:53] And so they just improvisational theater and found my passion. Or I might have.

John Dehlin [00:41:59] Or I wouldn't have been a housewife and had six kids. I would have gone on and got a graduate degree. Like, all these things. And so you're just like, oh, my gosh, I'm 40. I'm in a midlife crisis, and I've given my whole life to this church that now turns out to be not true. And so it leaves you with this sense of, like, anger and missing out of, like, what in the crap did I miss? And especially if you're in a marriage, like most marriages do when you're in your 40s, maybe some of the excitement's worn off. Maybe, you know, some of the glamour is worn off by that point. And so you're like, all the sex I could have had, all the parties I could have gone to, like, that it becomes a thing not for everyone, but I went through this huge regret of, like, what did I miss? So that's part of it. And then the other part is for those who decide to experiment with alcohol or drugs or sex or whatever, they don't have a basic education of, like, what's consent, how to have safe sex, you know, how to. You know, how honesty and the ethics of sexuality, let's just say, let alone how to drink, what's a drink, what's responsible drinking. And they just have no clue about this stuff.

Bart Campolo [00:43:16] Like, how do I know who's trustworthy? Like, how do I, in terms of friendship or a romantic partner? Because in the church, like, they vetted everybody for you. Like, if they were there, you knew their rules, you knew their ethics. But, like, the idea of, like, hey, I've got to figure out if this person's somebody I should trust, if I. If this is somebody I should. I should fall asleep next to. And, you know, and there's, you know, that is a skill, learning how to judge another person not in that kind of judgmental, but just in that kind of common sense. Like, who do you trust?

John Dehlin [00:43:51] Because Christ said, judge not. And the church just solved that problem for you by, you know, if you're a member in good standing, you've got A temple recommend. You just assume, oh, well, they must be good people. A lot of times they are. But Utah is also the nation's capital for affinity fraud and pyramid schemes because there's so many untrustworthy people that somehow slip through that filter. I'll add one more thing, Bart. One of the things I realized as I lost my faith is that I had outsourced my morality to the church. So instead of having this intrinsic morality born out of reason and out of life experience, you know, adultery was bad simply because the church said adultery was bad. And I remember sitting in a hotel room in Cambridge, Massachusetts, when I worked for mit, and I literally had this thought. I'm embarrassed by the thought, but I'm not because I think it's so normal. I'm like, okay. So I. There's, you know, maybe there's a woman who's coming on to me, and I've always been faithful because that's what Mormons do, supposedly. But now there's no big daddy in the sky writing down and watching what I'm doing. And as long as I'm a good husband to my wife, as long as I'm a good father to my kids, and as long as I don't contract some venereal disease and bring it home, as long as I have safe sex, if I have sex and just nobody knows and it's just two people exchanging intimacy in a safe way, is it wrong? You know what I mean? Is lying wrong if it doesn't hurt anybody? And I had these thoughts, and of

Bart Campolo [00:45:38] course, I figured didn't have a framework. You didn't have a way. What are my ultimate values? And, like, not intrinsic.

John Dehlin [00:45:46] They weren't intrinsic. Right? They were. They were outsourced.

Bart Campolo [00:45:49] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:51] And so, yeah, so a minority of post Mormons go through this experience where, like, they party and they lose control, they become addicted to drugs or alcohol, they cheat on their spouse, or they. They experiment with non monogamy. And sometimes they experiment with non monogamy and it works out great, but other times they experiment with non monogamy and it ends up either wrecking the marriage or harming the community or, you know, just, you know, being a last step before the marriage was going to end anyway. So you don't want to end all divorces on non monogamy, but certainly I know a lot of people who experimented with non monogamy who ended up divorced.

The Case for Building Secular Communities

Bart Campolo [00:46:33] And so now I'm gonna stop you because, like, that was a long tangent for us. And, like, it's a real thing. But like you said, it's a minority thing. But I think the larger, like, when I go back to, like, so what do you do? And you go like, I run this podcast. And then in about 2011, we started these groups, and, oh, my gosh, like, these people found each other, and in most cases, it was just a positive thing. They made friendships and they felt less alone.

John Dehlin [00:46:58] That's right.

Bart Campolo [00:46:59] So that was your first foray into, I guess, what you call community building. Yeah, it's more facilitation.

John Dehlin [00:47:06] That's right. That's right.

Bart Campolo [00:47:08] Like, my instincts tell me that while it's great when people find each other, like, putting 100 people who are friend, like, who have a lot in common into a room together, doesn't, like, that's not. You need something more than that to make it into a genuine fellowship or a transformative experience or something that can, like, help people when they have cancer or they can help people raise their kids. Did you find that people naturally knew how to take it to the next level and create sort of mutual care structure?

John Dehlin [00:47:42] Yeah, that's interesting. Mutual care structure. I would say yes, it was often found. But what I would find is that five or six or seven couples would coalesce and become really close friends. But once you've got five or six couples to go to the pool, to go to the beach, to go out camping, you really can't have more close friends than that. And so what was more often happening was that these people would find a group of friends that they were comfortable with and then just kind of separate from the group because they kind of had their needs met. And I've had to struggle myself with,

Bart Campolo [00:48:23] Is there a problem with that?

John Dehlin [00:48:24] That's what I'm saying. So you and I, you started this podcast by saying we keep ourselves up at night trying to figure out how to recreate this wonderful church experience that we had in a secular way. So many post Mormons are like, I don't want to, you know, I don't need this. I don't want to get together with a big group of people. I don't want to be associated with a big group anymore. I'm happy I can go hiking on Sunday and get all the spirituality I need. I've got these three or four couples that are super close friends. I figured out how to drink responsibly. I figured out how to be sexually responsible. My kids are doing just fine. John, not only do I not need what you're trying to provide, in addition, I am triggered by anything that's almost with the post traumatic stress disorder, Impulse reflex.

Bart Campolo [00:49:18] Anything.

John Dehlin [00:49:19] I'm. What's that?

Bart Campolo [00:49:20] Anything that's organized?

John Dehlin [00:49:21] Yeah, anything that's organized. Anything that involves singing. Any. Especially anything that brings people together on Sunday in a room. Anything where a charismatic person is up there in front talking, like, get me away from anything that smells or looks or tastes or feels anything. Like the Mormon. The traumatic Mormon experience I just had.

Bart Campolo [00:49:44] And so how do you respond to that?

John Dehlin [00:49:48] Well, that's. I mean, that's kind of the project. That's the question that you and I are still trying to figure out. And that's what made me go to that Sunday assembly conference, check out what they were doing. Then I went to Kansas City and checked out what Helen was doing in Kansas City, you know, with Oasis, and Mike, Alice was doing in Houston. And ultimately we decided to bring Oasis to Utah, and we started five Oasis congregations or groups in Utah in an attempt to try and build that next level of community beyond four or five couples that just kind of get together.

Bart Campolo [00:50:28] And the obvious question is, why?

John Dehlin [00:50:32] Why do that?

Bart Campolo [00:50:33] Why bother? That's what they ask us. Well, Bart, I haven't answered that, but I want to know yours.

John Dehlin [00:50:39] So I'm like you, and most people that I know, post Mormons oftentimes feel damaged by their church experience. I did not leave Mormonism because I felt damaged. In fact, Mormonism kicked me out because of my podcast. But I was still actively attending the LDS Church up until my disciplinary council was sort of in the works. And so I just. I loved it.

Bart Campolo [00:51:05] I'm so jealous of you for getting excommunicated. Do you wish nobody ever bothered to excommunicate me?

John Dehlin [00:51:12] It's a right. It's. Yeah, it's. It's a privilege, isn't it? It's an honor. It's not super fun, but it. You know, in some ways, I'm proud of it. But thank you for the. For the envy. For the excommunication.

Bart Campolo [00:51:25] Envy.

John Dehlin [00:51:26] No, I. You know, my parents, Bart, my parents were divorced when I was in sixth or seventh grade. And, you know, divorce can really wreck a family. And I just feel like the church was there for me to raise me when my parents weren't always able to be there for me. Now, they were great parents. I'm not saying they weren't there for me as parents, but when you've got remarriage and then divorce and then remarriage and business failings and things going wrong, you just can't be the same level of parent that you were with an intact Family and everything going right. And so to the LDS Church's credit, they stepped in, the leaders, showed up for me and showed me love. I went to these awesome dances. Mormons, whatever you want to say about Mormons growing up in the 80s, they had the most amazing dances where they play Michael Jackson and U2 and, you know, INXS and all the awesome bands. And you would get this huge stake center.

Bart Campolo [00:52:31] I've never heard in excess in the same sentence as all the awesome bands.

John Dehlin [00:52:35] What? NXS was amazing in the 80s? What are you talking about?

Bart Campolo [00:52:40] You really are a Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:52:42] Why?

Bart Campolo [00:52:43] Come on. That was just. That band was just so white bred. What they were. Come on.

John Dehlin [00:52:49] Oh, but we liked Men at Work. We liked, you know, Journey and Sticks and Foreigner and Rush and yeah, Howard, Howard Jones and yeah, Church created.

Bart Campolo [00:52:59] It's so funny dancing too, because what does dancing do except stimulate the lust of the flesh? That's what they always used to teach,

John Dehlin [00:53:05] but that's not what it did for me. Like, I never had premarital sex and I went to hundreds of Mormon dances. And just imagine 300, 500 kids in this chapel with a wooden basketball court with a wooden floor, DJ going with the lights and just hundreds of kids just having three, four hours of a ecstatic experience. And that's just a small part of my Mormon experience. We took trips to Arizona, we took temple trips.

Bart Campolo [00:53:37] Pastors came to your basketball games and cared about what you were doing and asked you about it afterwards, like, yeah, yeah, it was probably, like, it was probably great for you.

John Dehlin [00:53:48] We had dance festivals, we had youth conferences, we had testimony meetings, and kids would bear their testimonies and uplift and inspire each other. There were leaders who cared about us and best friends and intimate relationships. And it was just, it was just like summer camp for like six years.

Bart Campolo [00:54:06] They took leaders like you, like the sharp kids, and they said, you know, there are some other kids here and they're not having as good a time. Could you go and befriend this little girl?

John Dehlin [00:54:14] Totally, totally.

Bart Campolo [00:54:15] And taught you how to be a caring person. They taught you how to look out for the, for people on the outside of the group. So you learned all these leaderships. They probably then had you planning the dances for the younger kids and all this, you know.

John Dehlin [00:54:28] Yeah, yeah, yep. It's not just a Mormon thing, it sounds like.

Why Non-Religious People Resist Organized Community

Bart Campolo [00:54:31] Yeah, so, so here's, so here's what I hear you saying, because this is, this is the answer I get when those seven couples say, hey, we're cool. I was like, hey, good for You. Good for you. Because, like, you know, I'm here in the inner city. There's a lot of people here, and they're not cool or, like, I'm out here in rural America, and there's a lot of people on meth. And you know what they need a family. And the fact that you've got a family and even an extended family that you've created for yourselves with your friends, like, good for you. Now the question is, what about everybody else? Don't you feel like a part of what you want to teach your kids is to care about the needs of the rest of the world? Well, that's why we build these churches. These church. Like, so some people, I'm like, I need you to join this church because you need this party. And those people, I always say, I know you don't need this party. I think you need to help throw this party.

John Dehlin [00:55:31] It's easier to make that case when the people believe that if they don't throw that party, they're not gonna, you know, they're gonna either go to hell or have some inferior status in the afterlife. But once people believe that, this is probably the only life I'm gonna have. And that Jesus guy, I'm not even sure if he existed anymore. And I tried that group thing once, and it was cult like. The best they'll say oftentimes is, hey, I'll give. I'll give to charities. The charities can help that drug addict. The charities can. Can help those kids in the inner city. I'll donate my time. Maybe I'll go donate in a soup kitchen every once in a while. But most of the people that I know, secularism doesn't provide the motivation to then turn and spend a huge amount of your time serving your fellow man. It makes you want to buy a boat. It makes you want to get a cabin. Basically, just spend as much of your life finding joy with your immediate family as you can, because you may not get another life.

Bart Campolo [00:56:38] Oh, you know, I mean, I hear you.

John Dehlin [00:56:42] I'm sure.

Bart Campolo [00:56:43] I mean, it kind of breaks my heart.

John Dehlin [00:56:44] I'm sure you hear this all the time, right?

Bart Campolo [00:56:47] I do. I do. But my experience with it is, is that after people have the boat, they have the house and they have the cabin. A lot of times they look at each other at 40 or 50 and they've raised their kids. I mean, especially, like, why you're raising your kids. I get it. Like, because kids can be consuming and, like, you don't need any, you know, any other external thing to give you A sense of meaning and purpose. But, boy, you get to be my age, you get to be 50 something, your kids are gone. And my wife and I look at each other on a Tuesday night and sort of go, like, where exactly is the meaning of our lives? And ultimately, I think people get bored. And I think ultimately I look at myself and I think, what are the best stories that I have to tell? What are the things? If I look back at the last 50 years of my life and say, what are the things I'm the most proud of? What are the things that I reflect on the most? What are the things that make me happy? They're always opportunities that I had to get involved in the life of somebody and to watch them be positively transformed. And so a lot of times, like at usc, what I try to turn the kids on to is not just community for the sake of, like, isn't it fun to be part of a big group? Because a lot of my kids go, like, I don't need a big group. Like, I'm cool. I don't need to be part. I don't need. I don't need a group to give me a sense of belonging or identity. And I go, no, no, no, no. What I'm trying to turn them onto is not the joy of being part of a group. I'm trying to get them, turn them on to the joy of transforming the life of another human being for the better. Because then the group is not the end. It's the means. It's just one vehicle. There are lots of ways to transform people's lives. This is just one that I found that's very reliable and it's very flexible. But ultimately, one, what I'm trying to turn people onto is like, at the end of the day, another weekend at the cabin at some point is just another weekend at the cabin. Like the real joy of life. One real joy of life. I mean, you know, I mean, you've seen those kind of positive psychology things where they're like, look, in order to flourish, people need fun experiences and meaningful relationships, but they also need accomplishments and, and they need a sense of purpose and contribute. And I'm like, listen, if you just spend all your time at the cabin, you're going to miss out on this opportunity to be an agent of transformation in somebody else's life. And like, you know, and I know somebody said, well, that's just your temperament. You get off on that sort of thing. But I have, I've yet to meet somebody who, when they have that opportunity, when that happens, it isn't the biggest thrill of their life. That's why people raise kids.

John Dehlin [00:59:47] Absolutely.

Bart Campolo [00:59:48] And so, and so for me, this community building thing is not because I love getting together on a Sunday morning and singing songs. It's about. I love seeing a person that didn't have any place to be all of a sudden feel like they have a place to be. And I love watching some really cool high school basketball player with straight A's who's got a full ride scholarship and go like, oh my gosh, like making that little kid feel like a million dollars actually is more satisfying to me than scoring 40 points in the game last night. You know, I just like for me, watching a cool kid figure out like that there's something to do with their coolness besides just enjoy it. I don't know. And so like, that's the only case I can make for, you know, because ultimately it's the same economic case. Like there are people that can feed themselves and take care of themselves and like, why should they worry about anybody else? Like, let the world burn.

John Dehlin [01:00:54] Yeah, it's almost Bart. It's almost like you're. It's like that crazy Christ guy has reincarnated in 2000 and whatever, 15, 17 and is making the case again. But it's almost like we have to start over because back then the case either was made from or got intermingled with this sort of like fear of death and motivation for heaven. And it's one thing to make the case of Christ, which is serve your fellow man, spend your life in the service of your fellow man, serve others, sacrifice. It's one thing to make that case with the incentives and the disincentives of obeying versus not. It's a whole other calculus or formula to make that case without the incentive or the disincentive of heaven and hell. And so it's almost like starting over, right?

Bart Campolo [01:01:53] But you know, like this thing like when you spring up like the Jesus case, like, first of all, like, my stomach starts to turn because like, I never knew who Jesus was. Like, which Jesus are you talking? Like Jesus is just an icon that people project onto whatever they wanted to be. Like this case, like, first of all, that wasn't the best. And like that case wasn't that good a case. That wasn't that good a case. The scientific case is better. Like this will cause you to flourish. The experiential case is better. Like just, just the pure self respect case that says like, you know, I don't look at kids and say you ought to do this because for the other person needs. I go, like, when I come home. Like, I go, like, when you go home at night and you look in the mirror, don't you want to love that person? Don't you want to look at the mirror and go, like, that's a great woman. I love that woman. I'm so proud. And yeah, I said, the joy of this stuff has nothing to do with external rewards. This is what they mean by virtue is its own reward, like honor, integrity, humility, compassion. Like, these are the gifts a person gives themselves. I could never, even when I was a Christian, I was in Christianity for about six minutes before I stopped trying to motivate people to come and serve in the inner city with me, because they would go to hell if they didn't. I always said the reason to come do this is because it is a chance to become a different kind of human being. And because you'll never experience meaning like you'll experience in this, in the setting of service. And so, like, I don't get it. I. I don't like, the Jesus thing never compelled me. The hell thing never compelled me. The only thing that ever made any sense to me was, what could you do that would be more intrinsically fun than transforming the lives of other people in a way that makes them joyful?

John Dehlin [01:03:54] And I think that has to be the value proposition. And so if I could augment. So I'm still. I still have faith and hope in what you're putting down, Bart. So, you know, even though I'm laying down one side of a case, I want this thing that you're talking about. And it's basically all I've been able to think of for the past five, 10 years.

Bart Campolo [01:04:17] We just gotta preach it better. We just gotta preach better.

John Dehlin [01:04:19] No, it's not just that. It's not just preaching's part of it, but we have to figure out a formula. And here's what I mean. So part of the formula. Part of the formula is the case, the altruistic case you're making, that it's make a difference in the world. It's more meaningful and it's really enjoyable to make a difference.

Bart Campolo [01:04:37] It's hedonistic. I just want to be happy.

John Dehlin [01:04:40] Okay, so here's where. So in the case of Mormons, right? In the case of Mormons, we used to spend three hours a week on Sunday sitting and listening to super boring, you know, congregational meetings. We call them sacrament meetings. We where speakers get up and read these talks, and they're really boring. And then we Sit through a second hour of Sunday school where the same old lesson is repeated over and over again and you never really learn anything of worth. It's more just, it's more of a ritual of self affirmation and groupthink where everybody repeats the same old teachings and everybody agrees and if anybody disagrees, it's really awkward. And then everybody just kind of moves on and ignores whatever was said that isn't, you know, subscribing to the, to the group think. And then you sit through a third hour with just men or just women where basically you do the same thing. Mormons would go every single week for their entire lives to that and never really learn anything. And whatever formula Mormonism had, we don't have that luxury. And so one of the pieces of the equation that I see is us having the burden of making the Sunday experience so amazing, so incredible that people wouldn't want to miss it. And so, and so that's, and that's something that both Sunday assembly and Oasis are trying to do. Sunday, at least when it comes to Oasis.

Bart Campolo [01:06:12] Oasis, dream on.

John Dehlin [01:06:15] Okay, well, let's just for our listeners, we'll lay it out and then we can critique it, right? So in Oasis, they'll get a local professor to talk about climate change. They'll get a local physician who's traveled to Africa to talk about their experiences providing medical aid to the African people. They'll bring in a physicist to talk about space and Saturn and the rings. And just, it's almost like people finding local TED talks. Local people to give the equivalent of a 20 minute TED talk. And then there'll be coffee and community. That's. And sometimes, you know, and oftentimes people will share an experience. They call it a community.

Bart Campolo [01:07:00] What do you think the selling proposition is there? Come to our thing and you will what? You will be stimulated.

John Dehlin [01:07:05] You'll learn some stuff. You'll maybe be stimulated or inspired and you'll meet, and you'll meet other people and you'll start being part of a community.

Bart Campolo [01:07:14] I can watch better talks at home, right?

John Dehlin [01:07:17] I mean, that's what I think. That's what a lot of people feel. And in Utah, I could go hike through Mill Creek Canyon and see beautiful nature on a Sunday morning. And all the Mormons are at church and so the canyons are empty.

Bart Campolo [01:07:32] I could go golfing in Hollywood. And you can't out educate Ted and you can't like if you want to. That's the biggest ridiculous waste of energy I could imagine. Now, I'm not saying there shouldn't be talks. I'm not saying that it shouldn't be music, but don't kid yourself. That's not why people come. If they're going to come. That's not. People only want to. Why do people go to CrossFit? Why do people go to those things? Because why don't they go to yoga? Like, I don't care how good the concert is, people aren't going to come back to a concert every week. I mean, there's improv groups in LA that put on hilarious shows. Every Friday night, people go and then they go back a year later, but they're not going to go every week because entertainment is not going to keep me coming. It's only if I'm at something where I'm with people that have a shared sense of mission. And together we are being transformed in a positive way. And so, like, if you're not willing to trick. If you. If you're not willing to look me in the eye and say, I'm going to make you a better person and you're going to make me a better person, that's why we get together. We are working on ourselves and we're going to do something significant together. If it's not transformative, nobody's going to like. And that's the thing. People come to Sunday Summer and they go, this is amazing. It was so much fun and stuff like that. They're not going to keep coming year after year for a pep rally.

Oasis and Other Secular Community Models

John Dehlin [01:09:02] Right. And with Oasis, I should just say, my understanding is that the Kansas City Oasis and the Houston Oasis continue to thrive, and they do service projects regularly as a group in addition to the Sunday, they do meetings throughout the week. And I should also add that the Salt Lake City Oasis group is actually thriving. The other four Oasis groups in Utah, I'm not so sure about. I'm not so sure. The one in Cache Valley in Logan, Utah, where I used to live, it continues, but I wouldn't say it's thriving. I would say it's kind of continuing to exist, but not thriving. Now the low again. And Cache Valley people, I've moved. They can update us if things are going better than I thought. But so. So I guess at the one hand, I don't want to sell short the great work that people like Helen and Mike and Joanna and others are doing with Oasis. But I do resonate with what you're saying, that maybe there's some elements of the formula that if we don't have, thriving is going to be a lot harder. And my opinion Is I've been to

Bart Campolo [01:10:15] those oases, and I like them. And I think you ought to have good speakers giving cool talks about, you know, science or whatever, but at some point, it has to land in. And the reason we're listening to the science talks is not because science talks intrinsically are interesting, but rather, this is going to help us be more loving people. Like, and, like, we're good. We're going to. This is going to change us. Like, we're trying to. We're trying to get somewhere. We're trying. Or, oh, my gosh, this talk. It'll be boring to you, but if you bring your friend from next door, this could be a really good introduction to them, to this idea of, like, you've heard the stuff. This BART camp holder, this John de Lind guy has said before. Bring your friend, though, because this could be the place where they catch that idea that the way to be happy is by making other people happy. And if they get turned onto that idea, whoa, all bets are off. And then. And so all of a sudden you go like, oh, the singing. It's to get us somewhere, because I'm not gonna sing for singing sake. I don't like singing that much. But if you convince me that singing will help me change JoJo's life, I'll sing for JoJo. Or if you convince me that helping change JoJo's life will make me. Will make my marriage better, I'll work with Jojo. Like, you've got to show that's the thing. Like, I'm convinced that these people have adopted a lot of the good stuff from church, even. But what they haven't been willing to own is we're selling a way of life. And we think this way of life is better than that other way of life. So, like, a kid's selling meth on the corner, and I go up to him and I go, like, kid, don't come to my church, because if you don't, you're going to go to hell. I go to a kid, My friends are better than yours. We eat better food than you do. We have more fun than you do. I like myself way better than you like yourself. My way of life is really working for me, kiddo. I think it would work for you, too. Listen, if you're a part of that synagogue, if you're a part of that mosque, if you go to that church and you're thriving over there, I got nothing to say to you. But if you're struggling, if you're struggling, I got a way of life. And the proof is, like, look at my friends. It's working for all of us. And that's. See, when I see those seven couples up there at the cabin and I go, like, I'm so happy that you figured out how to love each other and how to raise your kids together. That's just beautiful. I'm so happy for you. You're really going to keep that to yourself? Really? You're going to keep that to yourself? Because I got to tell you something. I got a feeling that if I stabbed a kid to death and. And laid him on your front doorstep, all seven of you would run out. And you pick him up and you bring him in the house and you bind up his wounds and you nurse him back to health, because that's the kind of people you are. Well, just because he's not on your doorstep doesn't mean he doesn't exist. And so, like, you know, so my thing is I'm not down. I think John, I think. I think Mike and Helen and I think the folks at Sunny Summit, like, I think they're all doing amazing jobs.

John Dehlin [01:13:29] Agreed.

Bart Campolo [01:13:30] Creating this context. I'm just worried that in some ways they're not as evangelical as you and I are, because you and I will look each other right in the eye and say, you know what? I'm in this to change people's lives. I see them where they are, and I think, like, they're not happy enough. There's too much pain there. Like, I'm here to relieve pain. I'm here. I'm here to create happiness. And I think sometimes people are like, we're here to create a context where people can be and do whatever they want. And they. They can, you know, and they can. And there's a great chance to learn stuff here. And I'm like, yeah, I'm not learning for learning sake. I'll leave that to the university. This is learning for goodness sake.

John Dehlin [01:14:11] I love that. Okay, so can I. So I'm not. I know you're interviewing me, but this is a dialogue. This is a dialogue. And so I'm going to. I'm going to jump into interviewer mode for a second. Is that okay? So my. So when I've shopped this idea to post Mormons and we. And I agree with you. I actually agree with you that, you know, I spent six years getting a PhD in psychology. Like, I just graduated a year and a half ago. And. Yeah. And I've. Thank you. And I've studied, you know, John Gottman and his work on Marriage. And I've studied, you know, Shefali Sabery and her work on how to raise a child. And, you know, I've studied the principles of mental health, and I know that they're scientifically, you know, empirically supported ways to sort of, like, become happy and fulfilled and to have a healthy, happy relationship or marriage and to raise good kids. Like, in some ways, the university became inspiring in a way that religion was, because I think that the social sciences and the natural sciences have brought to us truth or wisdom that you could very easily build sort of a new way of life upon that was somewhat monolithic and somewhat universally positive. So I'm with you on that. But as I talk, you know, you say my way of life or a way of life. Let's just say that you and I were committed to figuring out whatever kind of the good life is in a secular way and then sharing that with as many people as possible. What my listeners and what my friends would say is, okay, wait a minute. So you're going to have some charismatic leader up there leading the organization. Well, that sounds a lot like Joseph Smith. Okay, now, wait a minute. You're going to have a bunch of sort of guidelines on how to live. Oh, okay. Well, that sounds a lot like scripture and. Oh, oh, these are sort of guidelines for how to live. Not only is that scripture, but it's also like commandments now. And all of a sudden, oh, there's going to be people who disagree. Oh, we're going to have to get rid of them because they're causing too much trouble. Oh, well, now we're having excommunications all of a sudden. Oh, and then, by the way, John Dehlin or Bart, they get a little bit too close to someone in the congregation. And now all of a sudden, let's just say there's some marital thing that happens, or members of the congregation or leaders start abusing their money and authority. Well, how's that different from Jimmy Swaggart or Oral Roberts or, you know, because scandal. Anytime you get 200 humans together, people are gonna. Some people are gonna have sex with each other that they shouldn't. Some people with money and power are gonna abuse it.

Bart Campolo [01:17:04] All of that stuff can happen.

John Dehlin [01:17:05] And so basically, they're saying, you're just basically recreating a secular religion. And I'm not going to be, you know, fool me once, shame on me. Fool me twice, you know, Wait, fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. And they're just. They're scared to build what you want to build and what I want to build.

Bart Campolo [01:17:24] Honestly, they're scared, right? And my response to them is.

John Dehlin [01:17:29] Or turned off or traumatic, right?

Bart Campolo [01:17:31] My response to them is like, first of all, like, you may be too traumatized by your first experience, like, to organize the next one. Like, you may not be on the. On the. On the planning committee for this party because you just. You just got too hurt. Like, you're gonna need a good experience before you can, you know, get over. But. But I will tell you this. It's like somebody said. Somebody comes to me and says, like, I love somebody, and they hurt me. And. And so I don't. I'm not gonna love anybody ever again because I don't want to be hurt. And I sort of go, like, you know, I. You have every reason to be scared. Whenever you love somebody, you could be hurt. Like, unfortunately, I don't have any alternative to you. Like, the human experience of love. Like, I've got. Like, you're gonna miss out. Like, you have to take that risk. And you go, but I could get hurt. I'm like, yeah, I know. You really could. And somebody says to me, like, well, you know, government, you know, when you get a bunch, when you. When you create a government, it can be. It can become corrupt and terrible. Like, you could become the Third Reich. It could come Stalin. And I go, like, you know, like, that's true. Governments can be perverted and governments corrupt. There's a whole history of that. And I go, like, the alternative of anarchy, I don't know. Like, I don't think it's going to do very well for, like, the. The average guy, especially for the little person. And so, like, you know, I still believe in government. And you go, but you can go wrong. I know. And Karl Popper, the great political theorist, said that the real job is not to come up with a system that gets you the best leaders. He said, the real job is to come up with system that enables you to get rid of bad leaders as quickly as possible. Because he said, bad leaders will emerge all the time. And I think, like, bad leadership in a congregation or bad systems or overly dogmatic people, like, it's gonna emerge in any system. I go, what's the alternative? Like, you say, whenever you have a bunch of people together, there's the possibility of conflict. I know you got something better for me. And so. And so, like, leader, you know, people say, I don't want there to be any leaders going, yeah, you know, every good thing I've ever seen in the world, every good Drama company. Every good school, every good company, every good family. Like, everybody has somebody who goes, like, hey, gang, let's put on a show. Hey, gang, let's get this. You're gonna have. You need leaders. And so, like, the alternative is not like, let's. Let's get accountable leaders. Let's create checks and balances on our leaders. But, like, you can you dispense with leadership? I don't think you're gonna get very far. You say, well, don't be singing any damn songs. I got. I got. I got reams of science that will tell you that when people sing and. And move and dance together, that they feel connected to one another. And so, like, if you got a lot of lonely, depressed, sad people like I have at usc, you might want to sing some songs, you might want to dance and play some games together. And you go, but that's. But that can be abused. And they go, everything can be abused. Everything can be abused. And so on some level, I don't. Like, if somebody says to me, life is risky, I say to them, absolutely. Life is scary and risky. So what do you want to do? And the answer is, I want to live. Yeah, I want to live. We're tribal. We're tribal animals. But there's problems when people get tribal. Like, I know I want to live.

Affluence, Belonging, and the Secular Community Challenge

John Dehlin [01:20:51] And so the trick is. Well, I don't know what the trick is. Like, I can say that for the post Mormons and the liberal progressive Mormons, most of us are middle to upper middle class. You know, I don't interact with people in poverty very often, very rarely. And so these people, they've, you know, and I'm repeating myself here, but they've got good schools, they've got good educations. For the most part. They have solid incomes. And they're like, I'm okay. Like, my kids are doing great, I'm doing great, and I'm happy enough. And so it's gonna have to be something really compelling to get them to want to move out of their comfort zone where they're really happy.

Bart Campolo [01:21:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:21:44] And that's. That's what we have to figure out. We have to figure out that formula. Because if you ask me, you know, I've lived in Seattle, I've lived in D.C. i've lived in Chicago, I've lived in Dallas. And you fast forward a couple generations, people are just kind of isolated. They don't know their neighbors. They're living alone. And when bad things happen, they may or may not be connected with their family, because families tend to Split up as everybody moves across the country. And I think that our nation is. I think that our nation, to the extent that it's good, it's been built on the back of religious communities that acted as a fabric for our civilization and growth. And I don't think the answer is more isolation and less community. I think we do need.

Bart Campolo [01:22:35] Every study would indicate that you have greater levels of affluence, greater and greater levels of anxiety, greater levels of depression, greater level. You know, I work on a college campus. Like, you got kids that don't know how to make friends. You know, they got social media out the wing wang, but they got, they don't know how to make a live connection. And so I think what you're going to find is, is that ultimately those people that say, like, I don't need this, their kids may grow up with a. Without a real sense of purpose, without a real sense of, like, when you, when you're born on, on the top of the mountain, where do you climb? And so for those kids, what may have to happen is, is that they may either have to be brought down, which is sad, or maybe somebody will do them the favor of taking them and having them spend a summer in Guatemala in some barrio, and then they'll go, oh, wait a second, wait a second. Maybe there's something else for me to do with my life. Maybe there's something that I can do that'll make a difference in the lives of other people. I think that, you know, I think that the danger of the Mormons, the ex Mormons, is that they are affluent and educated and in many ways very wholesome. And so it may take a few generations for them to realize that if they're not striving to go to heaven, if they stop striving, they may find that, like, without something to fight for, life becomes, you know, life is struggle. And if you eliminate struggle, I think you're gonna find people that don't have a sense of identity and don't have a sense of purpose anymore. And so, you know, my thing is this is like, I'm not trying. Like, I don't waste a lot of time or spend a lot of time. Maybe it's. Maybe it would be a waste. I don't know. I don't spend a lot of time trying to convince people that aren't interested that they need what I. They need my way of life. Like, if your way of life is working for you, like, or if you think it's working for you, same thing. You know what I'm telling you is I meet a lot of people who have left the church who are like, I had such a sense of purpose and now I don't have it. I had such a sense of mission and now I don't have it. I had such a sense of connection and now I don't have it. And it's those people that I go, like, listen, like, let's do this other thing. And if somebody goes like, but that triggers me, I go, hey, if you're triggered, don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. Maybe you'll come around later. Maybe you come around later when. When you see what a good time we're having. So, so, like, this isn't, like, you're not gonna get. I, like, I. I will not debate anybody. I will not. I have no time to debate.

John Dehlin [01:25:24] Absolutely. But what I do is when I

Bart Campolo [01:25:28] connect with you, I get so excited. Like, the last time we talked was offline and we talked for like three hours and was like, please come to dinner. And it's just because I just am so excited whenever I encounter somebody who has figured out that kind of core truth. And that is that life is more meaningful when you are passionate about making life more meaningful for other people. So, you know, for the 40 people that are listening to us live, or maybe the 12 that are left, 60 with 60. Okay. So, you know, like, I hope that, like, if there's three of those that go like, okay, okay, like, I've got my own circle, but, like, you've got it. You've got some. You and John have. Are cooking up some tricks to try to help me open that circle and create space for people that can't make a circle for themselves. I go like, and that sounds like fun. I go like, ah, those are our people. Those are our people.

John Dehlin [01:26:39] Yeah. And I, as far as I'm concerned, when I think about Sunday assembly and Oasis and other people, all these groups that we talked about, the Mormon spectrum groups, all the ex Scientologist groups, the ex Muslim groups, the universalist churches, Jehovah's Witnesses. I see us all as being in this together, experimenting on what we can do to kind of address these problems really quickly. You mentioned how many, you know, ex religious people are going to have to maybe have their kids struggle for a bit, maybe a generation or two before they realize that they're missing something. It's not just that. Because it's not like all children of extra religious people stay secular. A lot of people, a lot of secular people raise religious children because their kids don't find that sense of meaning and purpose in a secular home. They're susceptible, and they end up converting to more evangelical religious groups.

Bart Campolo [01:27:39] They are susceptible, and I would much rather evangelize them into a form of love that doesn't require them to believe in crazy stuff or to hate themselves for being human. In one sense, like, I don't want to leave all those kids vulnerable, but because I know that when you're 16 years old and you don't have a sense of identity and purpose and mission, anybody that comes along and says, like, join my revolution, you're susceptible to it. And I would much rather have it be a revolution that's based on, you know, reason. Yeah, not based on reason, but that uses. That embraces reason as a way to love people, you know, because, like, for me, the only revolution that's ever going to really capture a kid's attention is one that convinces them that he or she can do something of true value in the world. That's what kids want. They want significance, and so we've got to offer them significance. But I would much rather offer them significance that doesn't require them to hate themselves.

John Dehlin [01:28:38] Yeah, for sure. For sure. And that's what I like. You've grabbed on to the term, you know, humanism or humanist. And it does, coming from my background, kind of a Cold War background, I think you referred it to in such a way it has some baggage, but, you know, so what do we get people to believe in? I really like this idea of the human race. Like, you look at the way politics are going right now and the way, in some ways, we're not always moving in the direction that maybe many of us would want sometimes. You know, overall, we've made some really good advances. And like Martin Luther King Jr. Said, The long arm of history bends towards justice. That's probably true, but we also backslide a lot along the way. I like the idea of having the goal just be the belief in the importance of mankind and a desire across each generation to leave the world and humanity a little bit better than we found it.

Bart Campolo [01:29:38] Yeah, you know, I don't know. Like, I don't know if humanity will last a hundred years. I don't know if it'll last a thousand years. I don't know. But what I do know is, like, if there's something that we're doing that extends humanity even 20 years, it'll give some young woman the chance to discover literature and fall in love with it. It'll discover some young guy will get all turned on to math. And he'll feel, he'll learn. And they might meet each other and fall in love. And I loved falling in love with my wife. It was one of the greatest experiences of my life. I just. I remember it so. I remember it was so much fun. And it' been so. And if they could fall in, if I could extend it 20 years and just one more generation of kids got to fall in love, that would be worth it. I don't know what the future is. It may be that the civilization, like all species, most species, it seems like they rise up and then they die out. And you go, like, well, what's. What's the point if we're all going to die out? And the point is right now, right now, you and I are friends. And you know what? It's really valuable for me to be friends with you right now. And so, like, if I. And if something you and I can do will make a space where some other kid, instead of killing himself, will end up having friends in the middle in some town in Utah 20 years from now, I'm like, let's do that. Let's do that. Cause aren't we loving our lives? Like, don't you want to share that? Like, and so for me, yeah, humanism, I don't think of it as secular humanism. God, you know, atheism, you know, let's stamp out religion. For me, it's just like, being human is being limited. It's being small and not knowing any. Not knowing everything and not being sure of everything and knowing that you're going to die someday. And I go, like, within those limitations, there can be a lot of meaning and a lot of beauty and a lot of joy. And I'm just committed to that experience. I want to share it with other people. And so, yeah, I think humanism is not a bad thing to call what we are. But, you know, you said, like, you know what? These communities, I think, like, we should just call them communities of good. And I was like, that's a damn good name. I go, I like that real well. Because that's the thing is like, like, like what people need to know is like, this community is about something, and if you want to be a part of it, you don't have to believe anything in particular, but you got to be committed to this value.

John Dehlin [01:32:06] But it kind of does involve identifying best practices of living a happy, healthy life, doesn't it?

Bart Campolo [01:32:11] Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Like, and that's the thing. Like, like, I'm not. Like, when I say I don't say, this is the way of life. Like, if you're an autistic kid in China, I'm not sure that my form of community is the thing that's going to, like, really help you. You may be better off. And, you know, you're going to. Your human thriving for you is going to look very different because the way your brain's configured. And so I'm just saying, like, this is a way of life that works for a lot of people I know across a lot of different boundaries. And so, like, this is just what I got to offer. It's like exercise. Like, if you do yoga, great. And this other person goes like, well, you know, weightlifting has changed my life. I'm like, great. Like, I think everybody should be healthy. I don't have a particular. You don't need to get healthy the way I'm getting healthy. I'm just saying, like, this is what I have to show you. Like, this is the way I know. And, like, so when you and I find each other, we just go like, oh, yeah, Our ways are very similar. We should just try to help people who respond to this way of life. And then if there are other ways of life that other. That cause other people to thrive, we should, like, go like, hey, good for you. That would work for me with. Terrific. And so, like, yeah. So I just think, like, we are offering a way of life and sort of saying, these are the best practices that we know. If you want to be happy this way, like, you don't have to ride a bicycle, but if you ride a bicycle, these are the things we've learned about riding bicycles. And so, like, the only thing you and I really have to show anybody is how to be happy the way we're happy.

John Dehlin [01:33:52] Right.

Bart Campolo [01:33:52] And the truth of the matter is that there are a lot of kids out there, and nobody's trying to show them how to be happy anyway. And so when an old guy like you shows up and says, hey, son, you know, you want to have coffee with me? Like, kid goes, you'll have coffee with me. Yeah, because that's. I mean, at usc, you know, people say to me, how do you get kids to hang out with you? I go, like, I just asked them. Like, no kid I ever asked a coffee ever turned me down.

John Dehlin [01:34:20] Hmm. That's awesome.

Bart Campolo [01:34:22] Yeah. Hey, listen, we should go. This is beautiful.

John Dehlin [01:34:25] All right, Bart.

Bart Campolo [01:34:27] We build it up to 61. And I'm worried that if we keep talking, your Facebook Live crowd will begin to diminish and we'll know that we've Bored everybody to death.

John Dehlin [01:34:34] So it sounds like we need a curriculum or a text for how to live the good life. And then we need the right formula for how to create a community experience that's really compelling and engaging, that people will feel like they're missing out on if they don't.

Bart Campolo [01:34:49] I wonder if we need text or. I wonder if we need a critical process by which we could read any text and ask the same questions, and we could pull truth out of virtually any text if we were asking the right questions. Like, I worry about. Like. Like, I worry about that. Like. Like, that stuff that your friends are worried about. I don't want to go to sort of like, this is. I've written the book. Like, I just want to say, like, you know what? Here's a book, a book called Constellations of Mortality, Right. A meditation making sense of death written by a guy named Andrew Stark. I don't know what he says, but I have a feeling that whether I agree or disagree, if you and I read this book together and we asked the right questions, we would be able to draw stuff out of it that would help us to live better.

John Dehlin [01:35:34] I just wonder if, like, principles around sound mental health, principles around healthy relationships, principles around rearing healthy kids, principles around building community.

Bart Campolo [01:35:45] I think those are gonna emerge.

John Dehlin [01:35:46] Yeah, well, I think they. I think that's gonna be part of it. That's all I'm saying.

Bart Campolo [01:35:49] I really do. Like. Like, I read Martin Sigelman, and he has those five sort of.

John Dehlin [01:35:54] Seligman, right? Yeah.

Bart Campolo [01:35:55] And I just go like, you know what I think? And then I read this other book called the Power of Meaning, and she's got four. But, gosh, you know what? They're the same as his five. They're just cut up differently. And I go like. I think what is emerging is this sense that people are getting that, like, you gotta. If you want to be. If you want to flourish, you gotta have some good relationships. You've got to do some work that makes a difference in the lives of other people. And you've got to cultivate a sense of gratitude and a sense of wonder and a sense of curiosity about the life, the world around you. And I have a feeling that, like, however we chop those things up, if we can turn people onto that stuff, they're gonna be okay.

Humanist Chaplaincy and How to Get Involved

John Dehlin [01:36:38] So if our listeners want to help be a part of this, what do they do?

Bart Campolo [01:36:42] Well, for now, they listen to Mormon stories Now. Like, my podcast is called Humanize Me. And all we do every week is talk with people about, like. Like. Like, the last person I talked to was this woman who does a Harry Potter as sacred text thing. Just a book group that she runs that's aimed at helping people pursue goodness. And, like, we. You know, I talked to an improv artist one week. I talked scientists the next week. But it's all aimed at this, like, how do we help each other make the most of this life, and how do we build communities where that happens? So, I mean, I think part of it is, like, we just got it. We got to start listening and talking to each other. But I think that the main thing is, is that people who hear this, who get turned on by it, rather than, like, thinking that they've got to start the next huge thing, start to say, like, what would it take for me just to invite a handful of people over once a week to have a conversation about becoming better people? I think if it started there, like, I think that. And, like, we're just gonna pick a book, and we'll read it together, and we'll just ask the question at the end of every chapter, how could we use this to be better parents, to be better friends, to be better spouses, to be better neighbors? I think if, like, just. I mean, it sound like a Nike app. Just try it. Just do it. It's not rocket science. So, I mean, I think that that's. I think that. I think that. I wish I could say to people, like, go to this website, and you can find a local humanist community in your neighborhood. And there are people there, aren't? There aren't. I get letters every day from people going, I'm the only person I know. I don't know what to do. And I go, like, you know what? Some people are gonna have to learn to be a little more articulate about, like, I'm trying to be a better person. Then invite people to go. Like, would you want to get together and try to be a better person with me? I think it's. I don't want to say it's that simple, but I think the place to start is that simple.

John Dehlin [01:38:42] I love it. All right, thank you, brother. Let's talk again soon.

Bart Campolo [01:38:47] We will talk again soon. We'll do this thing on your podcast in a month, and that'll be beautiful. For now, just love, goodness, happiness. I'll talk to you soon.

John Dehlin [01:38:57] Back at your brother. Thanks so much for joining us. All right, talk soon. Okay, bye.

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