Welcome to our channel, where we dive deep into the evolving landscape of Mormonism, academic freedom, and church policies. Our discussions explore controversial changes happening within The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and its affiliated institutions, including Brigham Young University.
In this episode, we analyze a recent Salt Lake Tribune article exposing how Clark Gilbert, the Mormon church’s education commissioner, has enforced strict policies at BYU and other church-owned schools. BYU professors are under increased scrutiny, facing audits of their social media, job terminations for LGBTQ+ or feminist support, and even losing their positions if their spouse leaves the church. These policies have led to a mass exodus of scholars, declining university rankings, and rising concerns about suppression of academic freedom.
We take a deep dive into how these developments impact BYU professors, students, and the reputation of BYU. From Elder Holland’s infamous “musket fire” speech to the chilling reality of faculty members being forced to conform or be removed, we explore how obedience is now prioritized over critical thinking. As university rankings drop and top academics seek employment elsewhere, we discuss whether BYU is becoming more like Liberty University than a prestigious religious institution.
This livestream isn’t just about reporting—it’s about conversation. We encourage viewers to share their personal experiences with BYU, church education, and the shifting power dynamics within Mormonism. Are these policies strengthening faith, or are they creating an environment of fear? What does this mean for the future of academic integrity at LDS institutions?
If you’re interested in ExMormon discussions, faith transitions, and in-depth analysis of church culture and policy, this is the place for you. Subscribe to join the conversation as we uncover the realities of religious control, education, and the fight for open dialogue within the Mormon community.
Link to the original article: https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2025/01/05/byu-blue-why-these-are-dark-days/
Episode Transcript
Host: John Dehlin
This transcript is machine-generated and lightly edited for readability. The audio is authoritative. Please excuse occasional errors in names and spelling.
Introduction and Episode Overview
John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is January 6, 2025. Happy New Year. And today we are going to be covering an episode that the thumbnail basically says Harvard's Clark Gilbert terrorizes BYU professors.
John Dehlin [00:00:22] The real impetus for this, this episode comes from a Salt Lake Tribune article that dropped just over the weekend. The Salt Lake Tribune article says, dark days, new rules, have BYU professors running scared. Clark Gilbert, the Mormon Church's education commissioner, is determined to have faculty members who support the faith's teachings, or at least how his office interprets those teachings.
John Dehlin [00:00:55] So, you know, as someone who attended byu, as someone who felt like he got a really good education at byu, I met my wife Margi at byu. I, I've historically been someone who's cared pretty deeply about BYU and, and its progress.
John Dehlin [00:01:16] And so I think this is an important topic to cover. What I'm basically going to be doing today is doing a combination of reading the Salt Lake Tribune article and also playing some clips and also sharing some comments that we've been able to call off the Internet and some personal comments that have been sent to me as well.
John Dehlin [00:01:45] I'm going to ask Julian Maven to please star. We want to welcome our live audience and any really good stories or comments or questions that are shared in the live stream either on Facebook or on YouTube. I'm going to ask Julia and Maven to please star them and then I will do my best to read them. I do want to thank everyone who's joining us on the live stream.
John Dehlin [00:02:14] We. It's really fun to do some of these episodes live just so that we can get your, your live feedback. It's always fun. So welcome, welcome to all and also, of course, welcome to everyone who's joining us later as well.
Background on Clark Gilbert and BYU
John Dehlin [00:02:33] Okay, so let's just go ahead and, and jump right in. There's maybe a little bit of history that we want to share before we actually get to the article again. Here's what the article looks like. Let me just read a little bit on the biography of Clark Gilbert, if that's okay, just to give some of you a sense for who this Clark Gilbert person is. This is from Clark Gilbert's bio on the LDS Church's website. It basically says Clark G. Gilbert was sustained as a General Authority 70 of the LDS Church in April 3, 2021.
John Dehlin [00:03:20] As far as his church service goes, Clark G. Gilbert was sustained a General Authority 70 again in April 3, 2021. He currently serves as the Commissioner of the Church Education system At the time of his call, he had been serving as an Area 70 in the Utah area.
John Dehlin [00:03:37] Elder Clark Gilbert has served in a number of church callings, including full time missionary in Japan, Kobe Mission, Elders Quorum President, Counselor in Stake Presidency and Bishop. For those who don't know, the Church education system is the organization in the Mormon Church that oversees Brigham Young University in Provo, Brigham Young University Hawaii, Brigham Young University Idaho, which is in Rexburg, Idaho, as well as I believe it's called Ensign College, which is like a LDS formerly known as LDS Business College in Salt Lake City. And it oversees Pathways, which is this online degree seeking program that the church recently rolled out that's affiliated with byu. I think it's called BYU Pathways and I think it's my understanding that Elder Gilbert is behind BYU Pathways as well.
John Dehlin [00:04:36] Let's read a little bit about his professional life. If we go on it says Elder Gilbert received a Bachelor's degree in International Relations from Brigham Young University in 1994. I received a minor in international relations in 1993, so we were at BYU around the same time.
John Dehlin [00:05:00] He got a Master's degree in Asian Studies from Stanford University in 1995 and a doctorate from Harvard University in 2001. Interestingly, it doesn't say what his doctorate from Harvard was. I'd be curious to know what that was. Maybe some of you can find out in the show notes. But he has a doctorate from Harvard. He worked as a professor of Entrepreneurial Management at Harvard University from 2001 to 2006. He then served as Associate Academic Vice President of BYU Idaho until 2009, at which time he began working as Chief Executive Officer of the Deseret News and Deseret Digital Media. In 2015, he became President of BYU Idaho and was subsequently appointed as President of BYU pathway worldwide in 2017.
John Dehlin [00:05:49] And this is common for top leaders in the Mormon Church to spend significant time in the church education system. My understanding is that you know Boyd K. Packer, former Apostle and President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, Boyd K. Packer was a CES guy. My understanding is that Elder Holland was a CES guy.
John Dehlin [00:06:10] He was president. Elder Holland was president of byu. Elder Bednar, who's an Apostle, was president of BYU Idaho. And Clark Gilbert seems to be kind of of the same mold. So that's one clear pathway to becoming a Mormon Apostle is by being involved in the Church education system.
John Dehlin [00:06:32] So that's worth knowing and then personal life. Clark Gordon Gilbert was born in Oakland, California on June 18, 1970. He married Christine Calder in 1994. They are the parents of eight children. So he's a year younger than me. He's 54 years old, and, yeah, a Harvard guy. So that's good. That's good to know a little bit of his background.
Holland's Musket Speech and Its Implications
John Dehlin [00:06:59] Before we actually jump into this article, though, I also do think it's worth sharing some comments from Elder Jeffrey R. Holland in his 2021 speech at Brigham Young University, the YouTube channel that has a record of the speech. It's entitled the Second Half of the Second Century of Brigham Young University. Jeffrey R. Holland but this is the famous musket speech where Jeffrey R. Holland basically asked BYU faculty and staff to take up their muskets, metaphorically to defend the church against critics who oppose the Mormon Church's LGBTQ policies. And so it's also interesting that in this talk, Jeffrey R. Holland calls out Clark Gilbert by name, sort of introduces Clark Gilbert to BYU faculty and staff, and basically lets them know, kind of that there's a new sheriff in town and that he's going to be more directly involved in byu. And so, just to give a little historical context, let's go ahead and play some clips from that talk.
▶ Video Clip 1Video Clip 1 [00:08:21] In a way, Latter Day Saint scholars at BYU and elsewhere are a little bit like the builders of the temple in Nauvoo, who worked with a trowel in one hand and a musket in the other. Today, scholars building the Temple of Learning must also pause on occasion to defend the kingdom. I personally think Elder Maxwell went on to say, this is one of the reasons the Lord established and maintains this university.
Video Clip 1 [00:08:46] The dual role of builder and defender is unique and ongoing. I am grateful we have scholars today who can handle, as it were, both trowel and musket. Then Elder Oaks said challengingly, I'd like to hear a little more musket fire from the Temple of Learning.
Video Clip 1 [00:09:07] He said this in a way that could have applied to a host of topics in various departments. But the one he specifically mentioned was the doctrine of the family and defending marriage as the union of a man and a woman.
Video Clip 1 [00:09:22] Little did he know that while many would hear his appeal, especially the school of family life, who moved quickly and visibly to assist some others fired their muskets all right, but unfortunately didn't always aim at those hostile to the church.
Video Clip 1 [00:09:38] We thought a couple of stray rounds even went north of the point of the mountain. My beloved brothers and sisters, a house divided against itself cannot stand, and I'll go to my grave pleading that this institution not only stands, but stands unquestionably committed to its unique academic mission and the church that sponsors it.
John Dehlin [00:10:11] So many of you who are following Mormon stories three years ago will know about that talk. It's something that I think now Elder Holland is pretty much on record as saying he deeply regrets, you know, using military metaphors in association with a marginalized, vulnerable population.
John Dehlin [00:10:31] I think that was just unwise. You know, it's also, as I'm just hearing that quote now, I'm reflecting on just some thoughts around the talk. I think we would all agree that a private university run by a church has the right to hire and fire who it wants under the law and would reasonably expect that those who are a member of the university, who are employed by the university, who teach at the university, align with the organization that. That pays the checks. Right, I. I can see that at the same time, you know, when people go get a university education, they're. They're seeking an education that they can use in the secular world, in the professional world, and they want the best science, the best social science.
John Dehlin [00:11:31] They want diversity of thought. And, you know, for that reason, universities have tenure, you know, tenure policies to, you know, to protect faculty and staff from being able to express what they truly think and feel, even if it differs somewhat from what the sponsoring institution, you know, might stand for. And that's just to allow faculty to feel protected to do research, faculty to feel free to share credible, you know, instruction to the students. It's just basically, you know, why there's accreditation at universities and the type of thing that. That sets universities apart from churches, frankly.
John Dehlin [00:12:20] So, you know, it's. It's weird to have Holland. We're not going to go back and review that talk, but it's weird to have Holland frame it as a house divided against itself because reasonable people can disagree on, on, you know, the points that are in question here.
John Dehlin [00:12:36] And the church itself has changed so much over the past several decades in terms of all sorts of things. How it views marriage from being against polygamy to for polygamy to against polygamy again. And its stances on LGBT issues and gender and transgender issues and evolution and science.
John Dehlin [00:12:59] If you check out the Second Class Saints series that we did on Mormon stories or Matt Harris's Dr. Matt Harris's wonderful book, Second Class Saints, you can see how the Mormon Church over time has been super racist and then changed its racist policies, how BYU has been super racist and then changed its policies.
John Dehlin [00:13:20] And so because the church changes, its doctrine changes, and if even the university changes, it's more complex than just sort of a house divided against itself, that everybody get in line. The church. You know, you have as many opinions in the church as you have as the church has people, and you have as many opinions at BYU as you have faculty members. And so, you know, I imagine it would be very hard for a faculty member to know when they're speaking out against the church, which church, which policy, which doctrine, etc. But regardless, you know, the military metaphor and the military rhetoric is also unfortunate. Let's go ahead and go on and play the next clip that we had selected from Elder Holland.
Guest [00:14:15] Our bright buddy. New Commissioner of Education, Elder Clark Gilbert, is one of my traveling companions today. You may be certain that Clark loves this institution, his alma mater, deeply, and brings to his assignment a reverence for its mission and its message.
Guest [00:14:37] As part of Dr. Gilbert's introduction to you, I am asking Elder Gilbert to come on campus on any calendar he and President Worthen can work out. And whether those visits are formal or casual or both, I hope they can accomplish at least two things.
Guest [00:14:56] First of all, I hope you will come to see quickly the remarkable strengths Elder Gilbert brings to his calling, even as he learns more about the flagship of his fleet and why our effort at a church educational system would be a failure without the health, success and participation of byu.
Guest [00:15:20] Secondly, noting that we're just these few short years of halfway through those second hundred years that President Kimball spoke about, as Elder Bednard said earlier, I think it would be fascinating to know if we are in fact making headway on the challenges he laid before us and of which Brother Bednar reminded the leadership team just a few weeks ago.
Guest [00:15:45] When you look at President Kimball's talk again, a copy of which will be distributed following this conference, may I ask you to pay particular attention to that sweet prophet's effort to ask that we be unique in his discourse? President Kimball used the word unique eight times and special eight more times.
Guest [00:16:12] It seems clear to me in my 73 years of loving it that BYU will become an educational Mount Everest only to the degree it embraces its uniqueness, its singularity. We could mimic every other university in this world until we get a bloody nose in the effort, and that world would still say BYU who?
Guest [00:16:43] No, we must have the will to be different, to stand alone if necessary. Being a university second to none in its role primarily as an undergraduate teaching institution, that is unequivocally true to the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Guest [00:17:06] If at a future time that mission means foregoing some professional affiliations and certifications, then so be it. There may come a day when the price we are asked to pay for such association is simply too high, too inconsistent with who we are.
Guest [00:17:28] No one wants it to come to that, least of all me. But if it does, we will pursue our own destiny, a destiny that is not a matter of chance, but largely a matter of choice. A destiny not a thing to be waited for, but a thing to be envisioned and achieved.
Gilbert Introduced to BYU Faculty and Staff
John Dehlin [00:17:56] So I think, number one, it's important to understand that Clark Gilbert gets introduced to the BYU faculty and staff in the context of this musket talk. And it was interesting to me how Elder Holland starts by introducing him as Dr. Gilbert, but then switches and changes to Elder Gilbert. That's basically to say he has the authority of a general authority, and y', all, you know, really need to pay attention to him, especially as it relates to LGBT issues and dissent. So to me, he's basically saying, hey, byu. Hey, church education system. Clark Gilbert is my enforcer. You know, he's the guy that's going to come in.
John Dehlin [00:18:49] He's, you know, metaphorically going to crack skulls. He's going to get the university aligned, and he's going to find people who are criticizing the church. He's going to ferret you out if you differ from the Church's doctrine. And, you know, he's going to clean you out. Clean. Clean it up and clean you out and. And get things in order.
John Dehlin [00:19:14] So. So I think that's important. You know, he. He. He. He basically makes it really clear that the church, the Mormon Church, is willing to lose accreditation status if needs be. You know, if. If. If it comes to that. And, you know, some of y' all might remember that in the communications department at byu, in the speech and language pathology department, as I understand it, a couple years ago, one of the main skills that a speech and language pathologist learns in modern times is for transgender individuals to retrain their voice to feminize or masculinize. I don't know the exact correct term, their voice, once they've undergone transgender surgery.
John Dehlin [00:20:09] And so this was a service that was offered by students who were training at BYU in the speech and language pathology department. And then it came down from above that students were no longer going to be providing that sort of training and professors were no longer going to be supporting that sort of training, and, as I understand, caused a huge fracas in the department, and it caused at least one professor to leave and go elsewhere. So, you know, that's the type of cleanup and the type of changes that the Church has been and will be seeking from Clark Gilbert I do think it's really interesting that Holland also frames this as a matter of copying and mimicking because I don't think that's really what's at stake here.
John Dehlin [00:21:10] It's not so much about is BYU just going to mimic other people? What I think it should be about, especially for a university that claims to be led by a church that's led by God and Jesus. It's what's the most compassionate thing to do? What's the most evidence based thing to do?
John Dehlin [00:21:30] What's the most Christlike thing to do? How should we treat people? What is right and what's based in truth? And what would God want? And that's difficult because Mormon church doctrine and theology and policies, the BYU policies again, has changed so much. Elder Holland speaks as though that's really straightforward and that we all understand what that doctrine and theology is and how it should be followed by and he knows better. He knows that we all see through a glass darkly and that the church and BYU has changed so much over time. And there's so much disagreement even in the Quorum of the twelve Apostles, there's so much disagreement on even LGBTQ matters.
John Dehlin [00:22:18] He should know that it's much more complicated than just BYU mimicking a secular universities or you know, standing on its own. But, but he doesn't choose to sort of frame it that way, unfortunately. So just a couple other things we want to share before we actually jump to the article itself.
Gilbert's Vision for Church Education
John Dehlin [00:22:41] There's, there's an article in the Church News that came out in 2022 and I'll, I'll basically share that here and it says, elder Gilbert explains why the church education system much h must have the courage to be different.
John Dehlin [00:22:59] And I'll just read from that. This is August 17, 2022. Elder Clark Gilbert, Church Commissioner of Education, spoke at BYU Education Week about why there are so many BYU goes on to say to lead into his remarks. During a presentation at BYU Education Week, Elder Clark Gilbert showed an old video clip from Candid Camera, the hidden camera reality television series. In the clip, three or four Candid Camera actors enter an elevator with a lone individual and face the back of the elevator instead of the doors. The actors perform the prank several times with different unsuspecting riders. Inevitably, the individual awkwardly turns to face backward in the elevator like the others.
John Dehlin [00:23:46] Elder Gilbert, a general authority and church Commissioner of Education, compared the experience of the elevator writer to the church education system. Quote, we ask our universities to be different from the world and from each other, Elder Gilbert explained, or to stand alone despite pressures to face the wrong way in the elevator and what we want to do, we were able to. Julia was able to help find us a clip of Elder Gilbert and Dallin H. Oaks showing this video in front of an audience. And I'm just going to apologize ahead of time that those of you who are listening only may not get the full impact.
John Dehlin [00:24:33] If you're on Spotify, you could actually switch to video because Spotify allows both audio and video now. And of course, if you're watching on YouTube, you can watch the video. If you're just on Apple Podcasts or others, you may either want to skip or watch this on YouTube. But we're going to go and play the clip now so that you can get the full experience of what Elder Gilbert and Elder Oaks are communicating as they sort of try and establish a tone for BYU and its universities going forward. So let's go ahead and roll a clip.
John Dehlin [00:25:09] I think of an experience I had watching people be torn by pressure from others. That's watch the short clip from Candid Camera to show what can happen to us if we only take the influence of the world.
▶ Video Clip 2Video Clip 2 [00:25:26] The gentleman in the elevator now is a Candid star. These folks who are entering, the man with a white shirt, the lady with a tractor trench coat, and subsequently one other member of our staff will face the rear.
Video Clip 2 [00:25:41] And you'll see how this man in the trench coat. Tries to maintain his individuality. Little by little. He looks at his watch, but he's really making an excuse for turning just a little bit more to the wall. Now we'll try it once again.
Video Clip 2 [00:26:15] Here's the candid subject. Here comes the Candid Camera staff, three of them at least. And this man has apparently been in groups. Now here's a fella with his hat on in the elevator. First he makes a full turn to the rear and Charlie closes the door. A moment later we'll open the door. Everybody's changed position.
Video Clip 2 [00:27:09] Now we'll see if we can use. Now we'll see if we can use group pressure for some good. Now, in a moment, on Charlie's signal, everybody turns forward. Very notice, they take off their hats and now do you think we could reverse the procedure? Watch.
Video Clip 2 [00:27:40] Despite the humor of that video, you
Video Clip 2 [00:27:43] are going to have to learn to
Video Clip 2 [00:27:45] turn and face the right way in the elevator, even when everyone else is telling you to turn around and face the back, in your heart you'll know this can't be the right thing they're doing.
Video Clip 2 [00:27:58] But you have to have the courage
John Dehlin [00:28:00] to stand fast looking in the Right direction. I think it's particularly ironic and that was Clark Gilbert there speaking with Elder Oaks. Y' all tell me if you feel similarly. But it's so ironic that, that a church so rooted in conformity, in exact obedience, is using a metaphor about conformity to mock, you know, other people. Like this is a church where you're only supposed to wear white shirts to church. You're only supposed to wear, you know, white shirts and ties and solid color suits. You know, you're not, if you're a woman, you're not supposed to have multiple ear piercings. Tattoos are discouraged. Short hair is encouraged for men.
John Dehlin [00:28:46] Beards are discouraged. Like there are just so many ways the church is in the, the Mormon Church is in the 99th percentile for conformity. It's really ironic when then they use an example, mocking people who blindly follow to, to illustrate a point.
John Dehlin [00:29:07] And again, Elder Gilbert with his Harvard PhD talks about there being one right way and we all need to figure out what the right way is or follow the right way. He knows, and surely Elder Oaks knows, and we all know that when it comes to issues, moral issues, that there's never just one right way to anything.
John Dehlin [00:29:34] It's such an over simplistic framing for, you know, a situation that's really, really serious and that's impacting a lot of people. So I just think that's, it's, it's kind of funny, but it's also weird. It's also a little bit ironic.
John Dehlin [00:29:55] So that's who Clark Gilbert is. That's, that's an introduction to Clark Gilbert. It's an introduction to how he's framing things. The message is there's one right way, you know, for BYU professors to act. It's follow the brethren. If you get out of line, we're going to censor you, we're going to fire you, we're going to, you know, not hire you. And I'm the new sheriff in town and I'm going to be cleaning up the BYU's and I've got my elder title and Elder Holland's support in this and watch out, you know, that's the tone that was being set before this article came out and hopefully some of that context is useful.
John Dehlin [00:30:38] Now what we're going to do is we're just going to read through this article and we're just going to let you know what's going on at byu. And I think people should be concerned. I think anyone considering applying to BYU as faculty or staff should be very, very concerned and careful. I think Anyone considering going to any of the BYU's should be very, very concerned and careful about choosing to go.
John Dehlin [00:31:06] And I think anyone who's considering working for BYU should be concerned as well. So let's go ahead and jump and now jump into this article and learn a bit about what's going on. So here's the article. It says, dark days, new rules have BYU professors running scared. Clark Gilbert, the church education's commissioner, is determined to have faculty members who support the faith's teachings, or at least how his office interprets those teachings.
New Policies Leave BYU Professors Fearful
John Dehlin [00:31:45] Midway through Jeffrey R. Holland's hotly disputed musket speech, in which he admonished Brigham Young University's faculty to take up metaphorical arms in defense of the faith's opposition to same sex marriage, the Latter Day Saint apostle pointed to a less familiar face, Clark Gilbert, the church's quote, budding new commissioner of Education and his traveling companion for the day. Then it goes on to talk about music professor Jason Bergman.
John Dehlin [00:32:11] He was sitting 10ft away in the marriage center that August day in 2021. He could not have predicted then that the popular apostles, uncharacteristically harsh rhetoric was an omen of the next three years under Gilbert's leadership. Yet Bergman felt a growing unease. Bergman, who had been teaching trumpet at a prestigious Texas University in 2018 when BYU recruited him, bristled at the increasing clampdown on LGBTQ activism he saw on BYU campus, which eventually would include shutting down Y Mountain to rainbow colors. So for those of you who don't know, BYU has this big, huge letter, white letter Y that's up on the side of a mountain right there, very prominently displayed on BYU campus.
John Dehlin [00:33:04] And over the years, LGBTQ students and allies have found different ways to either paint or project rainbow colors on to that big Y just to show their support for LGBTQ people at byu. And it's been a long standing controversy.
John Dehlin [00:33:25] And you know, that's what's, that's what's being talked about. That's what's being talked about there it goes on to say, and at the denial of racism and misogyny that still existed. So basically, some of the main cultural points that we're talking about with all this cultural controversy are, you know, racism, the way the church treat, teaches about people of color and treats people of color, the way the Mormon Church treats women and how it views feminism and the teachings about mother in Heaven and how, how it treats, teaches its members and its doctrine around lgbt, gay, lesbian, transgender individuals as well. Those are three of kind of the main Mormon Teachings or doctrines or pieces of theology that are, that are prominently featured in sort of these cultural clashes.
John Dehlin [00:34:22] At byu, Bergman writes, quote, I had LGBTQ students and saw how they suffered. I started to pay attention to how people of color and women were treated. It was and continues to be hard for them. Then in 2022 came a new employment contract, a sort of loyalty oath in which faculty members, incoming and current, were expected to attest to their support of the Mormon Church's position on marriage, family and gender. Too many, like Bergman, who felt pressure to agree it went beyond the church's own stance and seemed to carry an implicit threat. You can't advance if you don't sign off. So that's disturbing to a lot of people that, you know, BYU implements an employment contract for current employees, you know, forcing them to sign a loyalty oath where if they, if they were supportive of LGBT people, of feminism, if they were anti racist or whatever, you know, and, and, and if they're understanding, if that led them to not feel comfortable signing the loyalty oath, then they could get fired or, or in the case of new hires, they could be denied employment, sort of a, a doctrinal allegiance or a loyalty oath at a, at A, you know, R1, you know, Division 1 university is kind of trouble, troublesome.
John Dehlin [00:35:51] It's kind of, it's kind of alarming, really. And that's kind of how Bergman was framing it in this article. A convert, informal bishop, former bishop in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Bergman began to wrestle with his faith, but feared discussing it with his local ecclesiastical leaders or fellow congregants. What if he had said something in a Sunday school class that was seen as challenging on, say, polygamy? And it got back to his BYU superiors. He decided I could never speak up in church again, you know, and that's true.
John Dehlin [00:36:27] The Mormon Church still has polygamy enshrined in its Doctrine and covenants in section 132. So if a BYU professor loses his faith in polygamy, can't believe in D&C132, can he talk about it? Can he talk to his bishop about it?
John Dehlin [00:36:44] You know, can he speak publicly about it, or will his job be threatened? What's implicit in all this, for those of you who aren't members of the church, who don't know about how BYU works, is that a BYU faculty or BYU students have to, you know, maintain a state of worthiness as judged by their congregation leader, their bishop, and if a BYU faculty is judged to be not an orthodox believer by Their bishop. The bishop can decline to give them a temple recommend and in effect, turn them into church headquarters so that then they can be potentially fired from byu. So it puts BYU faculty in this really weird position of having their church leader being able to ultimately get them fired.
John Dehlin [00:37:44] I remember a BYU faculty member who simply got in an honest disagreement with his bishop about, like, I think his daughter wore, like, a sundress or wore a dress to a church activity where her shoulders were showing. And the bishop, you know, got mad at the girl and got mad at the BYU faculty member and said, your daughter's dressing immodestly. And because there was just a genuine disagreement between the BYU faculty member and his bishop, the bishop refused to allow that BYU faculty member to have a temple recommend, which then, you know, led to him either leaving BYU or being fired from BYU because of just an honest disagreement.
John Dehlin [00:38:32] So that's the type of power now that the Mormon bishop has over a BYU faculty member's employment. And that's also problematic because what if a BYU faculty member has genuine spiritual or moral or ethical concerns and he wants to go to his or her church leader to get counseling and support? Now there's this really weird conflict of interest where if you want to seek spiritual or moral guidance from your church leader, they can turn you in and get you fired from your employer.
John Dehlin [00:39:13] It's really problematic. And that's kind of one of the things that this article is trying to showcase. The article goes on to say the whole point of the Gospel is to bring people to Christ through repentance and pastoral care, Bergman said. But when you make those people who can offer that care also control your job, you shut down the ability to be honest about concerns or problematic issues in virtually all settings. In the end, it seemed to him that faculty members were being asked to be, quote, unchristlike at a Christlike institution to keep our jobs.
John Dehlin [00:39:50] So, like many others, Bergman remained silent. He later found a position at Indiana University's Jacobs School of Music. BYU is not safe, Bergman said, for anyone who doesn't fit the orthodox mold. So that's another major concern that I'll be highlighting, is that BYU is losing many of its best and brightest faculty over time, as they just decide. I don't want to sign crazy loyalty oaths when I don't even know what the church's doctrine really is or if I disagree with it or if I have sincere, you know, concerns based on my conscience.
John Dehlin [00:40:31] That's a problem. You know, I'm just going to leave BYU and go elsewhere. That's Sad because there are so many, historically there have been so many excellent professors at byu and BYU is basically chasing off some of its best and its brightest faculty members.
John Dehlin [00:40:48] Here is a photo of Jason Bergman, music professor. I believe he's going to be on Mormon newscast, you know, later on in a couple hours on the radio Free Mormon Bill, Real Mormonism Live sort of channel. So check out Jason Bergman. We may have him on Mormon stories as well, but there's a photo of them. Let's go ahead and go on with the article.
John Dehlin [00:41:18] The article continues and says that seems to be a sentiment shared by a sizable number of faculty members who feel demeaned, disrespected and powerless. And then it uses the term and afraid. And that's another very troubling thing that I'm learning is that there's this chill of fear amongst BYU Provo, BYU Idaho, BYU Hawaii faculty and staff where they're afraid and they don't trust, they don't know who they can talk to, they don't know who they can trust and they're afraid to share their opinions or to speak to many of them. The environment represents a throwback to the era of Ernest Wilkinson, BYU president from 1951 to 1970, who worked with conservative apostles and future church presidents Joseph Billing Smith and Harold B.
John Dehlin [00:42:09] Lee to remold church education. Quote, they targeted instructors they believed unorthodox, tightened their curriculum and transformed the process of hiring to favor teachers who shared their own ideas about orthodoxy. Latter day state historian Matthew Bowman writes in his latest book, Joseph Fielding Smith, A Mormon Theologian. If you read the history of byu, the and of the Ernest Wilkinson administration, you'll learn that Ernest Wilkinson in the 50s and 60s went as far as to organize a spy ring where students and faculty were literally employed to spy on professors and their classrooms and to take notes of any unorthodox or non doctrinal or even liberal teachings that were being espoused.
John Dehlin [00:43:04] And then of course their employment was either threatened or terminated. Those sort of spy rings are well known about. You can read about the Ernest Wilkinson spy rings in the 60s and 70s. It's, it's a really gross time in the history of byu. It's really unfortunate time. And now people are speaking about BYU returning to those sorts of days.
John Dehlin [00:43:28] The article goes on to read a pre meme quip from the time mocked Ernest Wilkinson's approach with the jab free agency and how to enforce it. That's a funny quote before the day of memes. All right, so the article continues today. The threat of Retribution apparently is so real that after dozens of interviews with president and former BYU faculty and administrators across many disciplines, not one current professor, including those with tenure known as continuing status, would go on the record for this story. So that's really disturbing that the Salt Lake Tribune interviews dozens of BYU faculty and staff, and all of them confirm concerns with this article, confirm that they feel terrified, that they feel terrorized, that they feel afraid, afraid for their jobs.
Faculty and Staff Fear Retaliation
John Dehlin [00:44:25] And yet they. They don't feel like they can speak publicly about it. And I can confirm it. I speak to BYU professors, faculty, and staff regularly who hide that they listen to Mormon stories. They. They hide. They lie to their bishops. They lie to their stake presidents.
John Dehlin [00:44:43] They. They hide what they truly think, feel and believe at byu. They privately drink alcohol. They privately, you know, support LGBTQ people. They. They. They no longer believe in the Mormon Church's truth claims. They privately identify as atheist or as agnostic.
John Dehlin [00:45:03] You know, they. They no longer believe at all, but they lie to their bishops to get temple recommends and to their stake presidents. And they. And they don't, you know, say what they really think and feel. It's just a really unfortunate culture, and it's something that the church is fostering at byu.
John Dehlin [00:45:26] The article goes on to say that low morale is pretty universal. Said a veteran teacher. The default position is not to trust anybody. The article goes on to say, for their part, Latter Day Saint leaders in the Global faith of 17.2 million members are ditching chess checklists, checklists in favor of choice and personal accountability on how to be a righteous member.
John Dehlin [00:45:53] I do want to say that that 17.2 million member number is just totally inaccurate. The Salt Lake Tribune knows better. The Mormon Church claims 17.2 million members of record, but we all know that that something around 25% of that number represents those actively attending church and identifying as Mormons. So, you know, I think 4 million worldwide members would be much more accurate.
John Dehlin [00:46:27] The vast majority, well over half of that 17.2 million members, are people who the church has lost, people who never should have been baptized to begin with, people who don't identify as members of the church or just have lost their faith and have disaffected from the church. So again, it's unfortunate that the Salt Lake Tribune would ever use such a egregiously inaccurate number. That numbers should be 4 million, I think, at best.
John Dehlin [00:46:57] The article goes on to say, church founder Joseph Smith famously taught that the best way to manage people was to teach members correct principles and let them govern themselves and approach the faith's Latest for the Strength of Youth booklet follows along with its Design It Yourself ministering program.
John Dehlin [00:47:16] So, you know, here the Salt Lake Tribune is basically highlighting a contrast between the independence that Joseph Smith allegedly taught and what the Mormon Church is doing today with Clark Gilbert and. And President Holland and the way it's policing byu. I think the Sally Tribune knows better as well to be quoting Joseph Smith as sort of a supporter of free thought and of allowing people to govern themselves. Joseph Smith excommunicated people who criticized him, even rightly criticized him, who called him out, who defied him. And especially in those Nauvoo years, Joseph Smith ruled Nauvoo with an iron fist, punishing people, you know, if he would.
John Dehlin [00:48:05] If he would, you know, proposition a woman to be a polygamous spouse and she defied his requests and spoke publicly about him propositioning her for sex and for plural marriage, Joseph Smith would defame her and malign her in the press to the world.
John Dehlin [00:48:24] And that's just one example. You know, Oliver Cowdery, Joseph Smith's co president, caught him having sex with Fanny Alger, called him on it publicly, called it a dirty, filthy, nasty affair, and Joseph Smith had Oliver Cowdery excommunicated. So it's weird to hold Joseph Smith up as a light of free agency, knowing his history. And we know the Salt Tribune knows better as well to do that. But, you know, you know, no, no, no article is going to be perfect. We're certainly not perfect here in Mormon Stories.
John Dehlin [00:48:59] Okay? The article goes on to say even Clark Gilbert, who declined to be interviewed or comment for the story, espoused the freedom to choose and encourage what he called in a recent speech at BYU Idaho, quote, moral agency. But under his leadership, interviewees say the church education system seems to favor the obedience to rigid doctrinal interpretations over personal choice.
John Dehlin [00:49:27] You know, there's a lot there. You know, moral agency these days is a replacement. So many of us who are, let's just say, 30, 40, 50 or older were raised at a church that taught free agency. But lately, more current Mormon apostles like Elder Bednar are sort of claiming that free agency no longer exists, that we should stop teaching, that we have free agency. A better teaching is moral agency. And basically the argument here is those of us who are Mormon agreed that, you know, sided with the church and agreed to come to the world as Mormons, agreed to join into families that were Mormon before we were ever born.
John Dehlin [00:50:15] And once we made that commitment, we apparently abandoned our or. Or rescinded or renounced our agency to choose and at that point signed up to obey Jesus and God's plan. And so that free agency was then replaced with a sense of moral agency or a commitment to obey.
John Dehlin [00:50:40] And we have this teaching of moral agency trickling down now such that area authorities and general authorities are teaching, you know, young, young men and young women that they don't have the right to choose whether they go on missions. That because in a preexistent life that they don't remember, they already committed and covenanted to obey Jesus, that they made the decision to go on missions before they were born. And so they've already made that choice. And so now they don't have the choice on whether or not to serve a mission. They have the moral agency to obey.
John Dehlin [00:51:18] That's the sort of logic that now is being taught in the Mormon Church. And so, you know, when this article talks about moral agency, that's the sort of logic that now the, the church is turning to, which is a real change from, from the church that I grew up in.
John Dehlin [00:51:38] The article goes on to say if the school continues on this path, some academics warn BYU may look less like a latter day sent Notre Dame and more like Liberty University, an evangelical school founded by Jerry Falwell in Lynchburg, Virginia, which requires faculty members to agree to a lengthy list of Christian doctrines and policies, including opposition to same sex marriage and transgender rights. And I actually think 20, 30, 40 years ago, the church would have been embarrassed, I think, by a comparison to Liberty University or Bob Jones University, and would have felt much more comfortable being viewed as the Mormon equivalent to Notre Dame, which still, at least at the time, had very high and rigorous academic standards.
John Dehlin [00:52:27] I think today, in 2025, the Mormon Church would be proud to be affiliated with Liberty University and with Jerry Falwell and Jerry Faldwell Jr. I'm not sure that's true, but that's my impression. So I'm not sure the church is going to receive that in the way that the Salt Lake Tribune is hoping that the Church might receive that.
John Dehlin [00:52:50] All right, so the article goes on to say unique and compelling mission. Oh, I do think it's also curious why, why is Clark Gilbert afraid? You know, if he's a general authority, if he's a general authority for the Mormon Church, which means he's a general authority to the world authorized to speak for and in behalf of the church, if he's got a special mantle and authority from the church, why would he be afraid to speak with the Salic Tribune? Why wouldn't he be proud to speak to the Salt Lake Tribune and to grant an interview with the Salt Lake Tribune and to, to bear his testimony about the importance of what he's doing.
John Dehlin [00:53:36] What, what would he have to hide? What would he have to be afraid of? You know, you, you think about, you know, Samuel, the Lamanite, the prophet standing on the walls, you know, while the slings and arrows are being shot at him. He's standing for truth to the world. If you, if you think about King, you know, if you think about Abinadi, the Mormon prophet, standing up in the court of King Noah bearing his strong testimony, you know, if you think about Old Testament prophets, even Jesus and, and New Testament prophets, it used to be that prophet seers and revelators were sort of noted or characterized as being proud to stand for truth and to speak up and to raise their voice.
John Dehlin [00:54:28] Why is it that modern day Mormon church leaders, general authorities, apostles, prophets and revelators are afraid of or embarrassed to speak to the press? You would think that they wouldn't be afraid or embarrassed to speak to the press and to stand for truth. And yet that's, that's what Clark Gilbert is choosing to do here. And he's following, frankly, you know, the lead of modern day Mormon prophecies and revelators like Elder Holland and Elder Oaks that are basically afraid any longer to speak to the press. That, that hasn't always been true.
John Dehlin [00:55:14] You know, when I was growing up in the church, even as I was a young adult, Gordon B. Hinckley would go on 60 minutes, he would go on Larry King Live and he would speak, he would grant press interviews.
John Dehlin [00:55:28] And ever since around 2008, you know, the Mitt Romney campaigns in the Internet age, when, you know, reporters and the news media started becoming more aware of Mormon Church teachings and policies and practices, they started asking tougher questions and Mormon church leaders just started cowering and being afraid to speak to the press and to the public.
John Dehlin [00:55:58] So that's telling. All right. But spokesperson Kerry Jenkins is willing to speak up. So she writes, according to the article, the school has a unique and compelling faith based mission to develop disciples of Jesus Christ. Our employees and students come to BYU because they want to contribute to the university's special mission. Jenkins wrote in an email. We are grateful to have employees who are deeply committed to the values and aims of a BYU education.
John Dehlin [00:56:30] Not really saying a lot there. To that end, Gilbert, who previously laid off 43% of the staff at the church owned Deseret News, has worked to disrupt faculty systems long in place at BYU and make it more overtly orthodox so that's worth mentioning.
John Dehlin [00:56:49] It's a typical sort of Harvard MBA tactic to downsize or to fire large percentages of staffs as part of a savvy business play. And, you know, Clark Gilbert, before he was, you know, CBS commissioner, he, you know, was the head of Deseret News, or the digital media organization that ran Deseret News. And he took a hatchet to the Deseret News, and not only did he fire 43% of the staff, which is fine sometimes in businesses, people need to be laid off or it's good for a business to have layoffs.
John Dehlin [00:57:32] You know, I'm, I don't think any of us are opposed to layoffs in general. That large percentage is kind of eye opening. But it's also really, it's also notable that some of the people that he put in place at Deseret News, like Candace Cyriac, like Jacob Hess and others, are these ultra orthodox, pseudo social scientific, apologetic hacks who pose as journalists.
John Dehlin [00:58:04] And, you know, that's who he, that's the type of people that he hired at Deseret News. And, and, and so I think that's, you know, that's worth noting. Let me just really quickly thank Susie Catherine for her donation on YouTube as a super chat. We really, we really appreciate that, that type of support. Any of you want to make sure your comment or question is read, one way to do that is to provide it as a super chat, and I'll definitely see it. I also just want to take a moment to thank all our regular donors who donate to Mormon Stories in the Open Stories Foundation.
Donor Appreciation and Support
John Dehlin [00:58:45] My ability to do this job, my salary and, and the compensation of my staff, you know, is, and the expenses of this organization are all because people like you go to mormonstories.org they click on the donate button and they become monthly donors. So thank you to everyone who donates to make Mormon Stories and the Open Stories foundation possible. If you value this type of programming and you want to see continue. If you would be willing to go to MormonStories.org become a monthly donor, that would be amazing. Also, we love it when y' all will subscribe to YouTube or Facebook or Instagram or Tik Tok and like this episode as well, please become a subscriber.
John Dehlin [00:59:29] It looks like only 35 people have liked this episode. We have about a thousand people joining us and only 35 people have liked this episode. And we know that a fraction of those who watch or listen have subscribed to the channel. All of that is really helpful.
Secularism, Dissent, and Academic Pressure at BYU
John Dehlin [00:59:46] Okay, let's go ahead and keep going with the article. Secular pressures, quote, threaten to limit the valuable contribution of religious universities, says Gilbert, who supervises BYU campuses in Utah, Idaho and Hawaii, as well as Salt Lake City's Ensign College and a global online offering called BYU Pathway Worldwide.
John Dehlin [01:00:09] He argued this in a 2022 essay for Deseret magazine. So this is the classic scare TAS tactic of using secularism, you know, science, academia as a boogeyman to make people afraid. And, you know, that's always been an unfortunate rhetorical choice because universities, their value is in the scientific method, in academic freedom, in scholarship, in standing, being willing to stand apart from superstition and folk magic and folklore and honestly, religious coercion to seek truth.
John Dehlin [01:01:02] And so, you know, it's just, it's kind of gross when the man in charge of education for what four or five universities is using is sort of using this secular bugaboo as a way to make people afraid of professors, to make people afraid of science, to make people afraid of academia. When that's, that's the tradition that universities are built on.
John Dehlin [01:01:31] So, you know, whatever. That's what some conservative religious traditions do, and that's what he's doing here. Another danger, he wrote, is decoupling of faculty hiring from religious mission. It goes on to say, in his first year as CES commissioner, Gilbert undertook an informal study of BYU faculty members and grouped them into four categories.
John Dehlin [01:01:56] So this is a typical. I worked for a management consulting firm called Bain and Company, right. As I graduated from byu, I worked with a ton of Harvard types, Stanford, Wharton, Northwestern types. And it's very common thing to create this sort of quadrant analysis where you group a large group of people into four quadrants. And so this is right on brand. It's right what you would expect from a, a, a Harvard MBA graduate. And there, there's a lot of great Harvard graduates and a lot of great Harvard MBAs out there. We're not knocking them in any way, but, but it's just classic Harvard MBA to, to do this quadrant analysis.
John Dehlin [01:02:47] And so he's grouped BYU professors into four quadrants. One is the faithful core. They teach with the Holy Spirit and weave in church tenants as they understand them. So those are the good guys, right? If you teach with the Holy Spirit and you weave in church tenants as you understand them, you're part of the faithful core. Notice that it's not saying excellent scientists, excellent, excellent social science, excellent social scientists, people who have true academic integrity, people who speak out and speak the truth, no matter the consequence, with their Academic integrity, who don't lie in their research, who don't create shoddy scholarship. He's not saying any of that.
John Dehlin [01:03:34] He's saying, do you teach with the Holy Spirit? And again, no one's been able to explain to me or anyone that I know what the difference is between the Holy Ghost or the Holy Spirit and just your emotions, just your feelings, just your conditioning, just what you know, you've been raised to think or feel or believe.
John Dehlin [01:03:55] No one to this day has been able to explain to any of us what the difference is. But those are the good guys at byu, the ones who teach according to their feelings of what they think the Holy Spirit is, and then weave that into their teaching. They, I would just venture to say those are going to be the worst professors out there, frankly.
John Dehlin [01:04:15] The ones who violate their code of ethics, the ones who don't stay true to the science or to the social science or to the academic rigor. They're going to be the ones to the classes to drop the classes to avoid. But they're the ones that Clark Gilbert is highlighting as the best the second.
John Dehlin [01:04:38] These are the, you know, not as good, but acceptable is the supportive center. They support the Mormon Church, but are not enthusiastic as, as, as enthusiastic as church leaders think they ought to be. So, yeah, so, you know, you're kind of lukewarm in supporting the church, but you're not enthusiastic.
John Dehlin [01:05:02] You know, your leaders think you should be more enthusiastic. You're not sort of pulling out your muskets and defending the church's LGBTQ stances or its feminist stances or its calls for female or women equality. It's, you know, openly objecting to the church's racism.
John Dehlin [01:05:23] You're just not enthusiastic in supporting racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. Unfortunately. But, but, but you're, you know, as long as you're quiet, you're, you're not going to maybe have any problems or as long as you hide and lie about what you truly think or feel and sort of toe the party line unenthusiastically.
John Dehlin [01:05:47] It looks like the church, you know, isn't going to be coming for you or your jobs. The final two, I think, are the, are the ones that definitely have to fear for their jobs. The third is the secular first. They put the truth from any source on an equal footing with the Latter Day Saint gospel.
John Dehlin [01:06:11] And I think that's a really interesting thing. They put the truth and the truth is in quotes. So if a professor thinks that they have, you know, some sort of truth, whether it's organic, evolution, or, you know, the, the earth being billions of years old or, you know, this idea that racism's bad or that, you know, gay or lesbian people don't choose to be gay or lesbian, or that, you know, that, that the medical profession supports gender affirming care, whatever it is. If you, you know, if you put that scientific truth on equal footing with the Latter Day Saint gospel, and I would say the current perceptions or current interpretations of what the Mormon Church is currently saying is its gospel, sometimes very unclearly anyway, if you do that, you're a problem and you risk sanctioning.
John Dehlin [01:07:24] That's the third group and then the fourth group that he mentions, the open foes, they write an article or they take a public position contrary to that of the church. And those are the people to be, you know, most fearful to, to be most afraid. The ones who publish science that the church doesn't like, that the modern church leaders don't like, the ones who teach science or teach with academic rigor things that the Church doesn't like.
John Dehlin [01:08:00] Whether that's truthful Mormon history, whether that's the age of the earth, whether that's evolution, whether that's social justice, you know, whatever it is. Be very afraid if you follow academic standards as you know it and publish or speak out publicly against things that the Church has denounced. And let me just make it really clear, the Mormon Church has been in favor of polygamy for a couple centuries now. The Mormon Church has been against women and men being equal for a couple centuries now. The Church has taught that same sex attraction, same sex attraction is a choice, that being gay or lesbian is an abomination and, you know, is sin.
John Dehlin [01:08:52] You know, the church is taught that. The church leaders have taught that the earth is 6,000 years old, that organic evolution is a teaching of the devil. You know, these are the types of teachings that professors are going to be terrified to potentially contradict because they contradict the teachings of prophets, seers and revelators historically.
John Dehlin [01:09:17] So, you know, that's the tone that Clark Gilbert is setting. Want to thank Jay Larsen for his donation. Jay Larsen writes, I forgot to like until you mentioned 35 likes. Thanks for the reminder. So thanks, Jay, for the donation and thanks to everyone who has liked it. Looks like we're up to 43 likes. So there's a thousand people who have joined us and only 43 people have liked us. So it'd be great if we could get that number up. All right, let's go ahead and continue with this article. When presenting this to a Salt Lake City Dinner group of prominent Latter Day Saints. Clark Gilbert said that the faith's governing first presidency, quote, will not stand for a contrary opinion by professors at byu, according to several attendees, and that he would find a way to get them out.
John Dehlin [01:10:10] So this confirms kind of what I said before that. When Holland introduces Clark Gilbert to the BYU faculty and staff and administration, he's saying there's a new sheriff in town and if he finds out, if word gets out that you're teaching anything at the university that contradicts the brethren or the perception of Mormon doctrine and theology, you're going to get fired, you're going to get removed, you're going to get punished.
John Dehlin [01:10:38] So that's what's going on. Gilbert did not respond to a specific solitaire question about how he would remove them. It goes on to write, quote, I honestly don't know any open foes among the faculty, said a senior professor or a single bad apple. I have no idea what that quote means, but what I imagine it to mean is that BYU faculty and staff are terrified that if they speak openly or criticize the church, they're going to get fired. All right. Gilbert's groupings, quote, fail to recognize a variety of spiritual strengths that professors bring. A female instructor wrote an anonymous, terrified to give her name, female instructor wrote in an email, quote, they just don't capture the thoughtful, heartfelt and spirit filled ways that faculty approach their faith, their academic disciplines, the church and its leaders, or their stewardships at byu.
John Dehlin [01:11:38] The article goes on to say it's, quote, pretty hurtful to think that faculty might be lumped into some of these categories. She said. So it's probably not surprising there are tensions and distrust on all sides. Now the article is going on to talk about the clearance office, which I think is the brainchild of Clark Gilbert and something that was implemented during his time as the head of the church education system.
John Dehlin [01:12:05] So it, the article reads, the ecclesiastical clearance office, which Gilbert leads as a General 3070 and as CES head, has say over hiring and firing, it is intended to, quote, assist in the process, said Jenkins, the BYU spokesperson of ensuring that employees in the church education system commit to maintain the gospel standards as part of their employment, including an annual ecclesiastical endorsement from their local bishop. The university, quote, has been clear about its commitment to these expectations which are consistent across all church schools, Jenkins said, and communicated to all prospective BYU employees. It's not clear, however, to everyone, the article says, and what I'm going to do is just kind of explain what I know about this process and the article is going to go along to explain it as well.
John Dehlin [01:13:05] But the basic process is a department at BYU would need to hire someone. They would probably have a committee to go out and find the best candidates possible, do a search, call for applications. The department would then vet CVs or curriculum vitae.
John Dehlin [01:13:25] They would check out their publications, their teaching records, make sure they're aligned as best as possible, invite them for interviews, have them get interviewed. The departments would then make their recommendations for which faculty members should be hired for a given position.
John Dehlin [01:13:52] And then historically, what would happen is as the final step, most BYU professors historically would do an interview with the BYU General Authority as the final step of an interview. And the BYU General Authority would sort of say, hey, are you going to, you know, make sure and support the church and its overall mission as a BYU faculty member? And if the General Authority gave the go ahead, the faculty would be hired. Well, now they're adding some layers on top of that process.
John Dehlin [01:14:27] So let's go ahead and learn a little bit more about that, what that is. The article goes on to say the guidelines about what is and isn't church doctrine can be ambiguous, said Taylor Petrie, a Latter Day Saint religion professor at Kalamazoo College in Michigan. Quote, what Clark Gilbert and some church leaders think is fixed and unquestionable church doctrine is not what others think. And there's a picture of Taylor Petrie, take the new contract, which professors say goes beyond established protocols of belief and behavior on top of the traditional, quote, recommend standards, recommended standards which are required for entrance to any of the faith sacred temples.
John Dehlin [01:15:08] And so what we're talking about there is that the BYU professor would need to promise to pay 10% of their income to the church while their by employees to not drink coffee, to not drink alcohol, to not chew or smoke tobacco, to, you know, to not have any sort of sex outside the marriage, you know, legal marriage of a man and a woman, that sort of thing. There are these behavioral guidelines that are required to get a Mormon temple recommend.
John Dehlin [01:15:42] All BYU faculty would need to promise to commit to those standards and to live to be temple recommend worthy. That's what it means by traditional recommend standards. The article goes on to say, on top of the traditional recommend standards which are required for entrance to any of the faith sacred temples. Lay leaders must affirm that candidates have a testimony of church doctrine, including its teachings on marriage, family and gender support. Current church policies and practices have demonstrated an exemplary and extended pattern, at least one year of avoiding pornography. So basically they're saying if you are LGBTQ affirming don't bother applying to BYU if you believe that gay citizens of the United States should be allowed to be married in the United States, which is the law, or that lesbian women should be allowed to be married, you know, under the law, and that that marriage is a good thing, that that marriage is a noble and a worthy thing and that it's even a moral and an ethical thing.
John Dehlin [01:16:59] If you believe those things, don't bother applying to byu. The only people that should apply to BYU to be faculty are people that believe same sex marriage is a sin, that believe that it's a bad thing, that it's an abomination and that it should be illegal. Those are the only people that should be applying to be professors or staff at byu.
John Dehlin [01:17:27] But it goes even further. If you drink coffee or tea, don't apply to BYU to become a professor. And if you have by chance looked at pornography in the past 12 months, don't bother applying to BYU to be faculty. We do not want anyone who masturbates or looks at pornography to be a faculty to be a professor at byu. Those are the standards.
John Dehlin [01:18:02] And I just want you to think about what it's going to be like to send your kids or to go to a university of people who believe that to be same sex buried is a sin, who believe that coffee and tea are sins.
John Dehlin [01:18:25] And you know, who have never in the past year have not even in any way ever, you know, masturbated or looked at pornography even once. Like, just imagine how many people that is going to filter out, how many qualified professors that's going to filter out. And I can just promise you there are very, very few faculty currently at BYU who meet those standards and frankly, very, very few Mormon bishops who meet those standards. And yet it's the standards that they're trying to enforce.
John Dehlin [01:19:02] For BYU faculty, this is quite disturbing if you think about the implications of what that faculty is going to look like. All right, let's go ahead and continue. The Utah based faith opposes same sex marriage, for example, but does not necessarily penalize members who support it. Could a BYU professor who writes in support of LGBTQ rights or wears a rainbow pin be seen as bucking the church and in danger of workplace discipline, even dismissal? Could attending a same sex wedding be seen as rebellion? Is saying that you are a feminist taking a stand against church leaders? Is discussing Heavenly Mother tacit disobedience? Will studying Brigham Young in slavery put you in jeopardy?
John Dehlin [01:19:52] Is criticizing Donald Trump against the church's policy of political neutrality so you can Think of all these examples, like whether you're wanting to apply to BYU or you're currently a BYU faculty. If you march in a gay pride parade, you if you put a rainbow flag out outside of your house to support Pride Week, if you attend a pride march with your queer kid or sibling or parent, if you support the ERA or say you're a feminist or just have a little rainbow lapel pin, whatever that might mean, Is that enough to get you not hired at byu? Is that enough to get you fired from your job at byu?
John Dehlin [01:20:39] If you speak out against racism, if you acknowledge the Mormon Church's deeply and offensively racist past, if you criticize the Mormon Church's past prophets, seers and revelators, or even the current ones for racist and sexist and homophobic things that they may have said, are you at risk of being fired from BYU or being denied a position there? It's a really scary. It's a really scary thought.
John Dehlin [01:21:15] Not to mention just how ambiguous this all is, because who's deciding? If you have an aggressive bishop who's extra conservative, are they going to be enforcing these sorts of guidelines on ward members and potential or current BYU employees?
John Dehlin [01:21:36] Evenly, we all know how famously uneven this idea of leadership roulette is within the church. You could have super liberal bishops that will let you or stake presidents that'll let you hold a temple recommender, even be a bishop if you're an atheist or identify as agnostic or don't believe the Book of Mormon's historical you've got super liberal bishops that'll let you smoke weed or smoke cannabis and have a temple recommend or not pay tithing all the way to super conservative bishops or stake presidents that will literally punish you for very minimal things like not paying tithing on your gross instead of on your net.
John Dehlin [01:22:22] Or just not believing that Doctrine and Covenants 132 is inspired that section that promotes polygamy. So it's a real concern that bishops are given so much power. Let me go ahead and read a comment from jc. Thanks for the support, jc JC writes, isn't it odd a supreme deity would mislead its supposed favored church and prophets? Why don't sciences and truth claims match? Either the church is true or it is a fraud. There's no middle ground. That's a quote from Gordon B. Hinckley. Thank you JC both for that comment and for the super chat.
John Dehlin [01:23:05] Jay Larsen also writes the term pornography is subjective. We can make the argument the church's polygamy cartoon for children is porn that's a great point. Jay Larsen, thank you for sharing as well. All right, so this is just disturbing again on so many levels.
Controversial Hiring Practices in Religious Education
John Dehlin [01:23:26] So the article goes on to write, the administration recently appointed three BYU Idaho teachers to the Religious Education Department in Provo, including Ross Baron, co author of an anti evolution book. But the church has not taken a position on evolution, and the flag flagship school has been teaching it for more than 50 years. So let me just go ahead and share with you a slide that Julia prepared for us. Here's the slide.
John Dehlin [01:23:59] It's basically a book by a guy named Ross Baron, PhD. I'm dying to know what his PhD is in, but the book is entitled Philosophy, Evolution and the Restored Gospel. And it says, yeah, so this guy was recently hired in religion and social ethics.
John Dehlin [01:24:19] He's a, he's apparently against evolution and he's allowed to be hired at byu. But if, if some person wears a rainbow pin or flies a rainbow flag or expresses support for women or speaks out against racism or supports LGBTQ causes or criticizes the church in any way, they're going to be potentially fired or denied their position.
John Dehlin [01:24:52] That's where things are. Let's go ahead and continue. It says other professors wonder why Barron's position on evolution is not seen as disqualifying why those who explore feminist ideas about priesthood, for example, are considered suspect. And I was at BYU at a time where if you just taught that it was okay to pray to Mother in heaven, you got fired. So Cecilia Farr, Gail Houston, others, other professors at BYU simply just started speaking about praying to mother in Heaven about the existence of Mother in Heaven and encouraged, you know, people to not just pray to their father in heaven, but pray to their mother in heaven.
John Dehlin [01:25:34] That was enough to get people fired nowadays, like in the case of Fiona Givens, who is the wife of Terrell Givens, the chief apologist for the Mormon Church at BYU Maxwell Institute. She was sort of run out of BYU and her position in the Maxwell Institute for speaking too openly about Mother in Heaven. So I guess what the concern here is that ultra conservative, sort of ultra orthodox conservative faculty are now going to be getting a pass.
John Dehlin [01:26:06] Even if they teach things that are counter to more modern Mormon Church sensibilities, they're going to be given a pass and hired and not fired. Whereas if you have more liberal or progressive causes that are out of line with what have been interpreted to be modern Mormon Church sensibilities, you know you're going to be in trouble. So that's, that's another concern.
John Dehlin [01:26:32] Let me just go ahead and share another comment from Lavandula angustifolia. They write, suppressing free thought is a step backward. Backwards to medieval times. That's true. And I'll just venture to say that BYU is much less scholarly, much more conservative and much more problematic than it was when I was there 30 years ago. Which is, which is saying something because that was during the September 6th excommunications and it was deeply problematic back then.
John Dehlin [01:27:09] Okay, so the article goes on. It's got a section called a black box. It says, like at most universities, BYU's hiring begins in academic departments where candidates are vetted, interviewed and then recommended up the ladder to deans. Potential faculty members must already have an ecclesiastical endorsement from their local lay leader. After they are approved by the dean, they must meet with a Latter Day Saint general authority and finally be approved by the Ecclesiastical Clearance Office. That's where Clark Gilbert and his work comes in. In the past, most candidates put forward by a department sailed through the other levels. During Gilbert's administration. However, the Ecclesiastical Office has overruled those decisions, professors say, leaving many wondering whether it was vetoing General Authority sign offs.
John Dehlin [01:28:00] Now that's interesting because what the SALT Tribune is trying to do here is say that Clark Gilbert and his Ecclesiastical Clearance Office is vetoing or overruling the, you know, the decisions of inspired prophets and revelators. And that's a fun little twist that the Tribune seems to be trying to introduce there.
John Dehlin [01:28:23] The article goes on to write, in the past, most candidates put forward by. Sorry, I already read that part. Jenkins BYU spokesperson insists that is not happening. Quote, neither the CES commissioner nor the Ecclesiastical Clearance Office can override a General Authority interview. She said, quote, the final arbiter of all hires is the Church Board of Education made up of the First Presidency and other top church leaders and not the Commissioner nor the Ecclesiastical Clearance Office. I'm going to call, I'm going to call foul or BS on that. I absolutely guarantee that, that this Ecclesiastical Clearance Office is acting like the well known Strengthening the Memberships committee.
John Dehlin [01:29:15] Like the kgb, like the CIA, like the FBI. They're doing deep background checks on current and former or prospective BYU employees and professors and candidates. And they're scouring their Facebook, their Twitter, their Instagram, any of their social media accounts, all of their academic publications.
John Dehlin [01:29:43] I wouldn't be surprised if they're, if they're calling their bishops and they're gathering any possible dirt or controversy they can on these people. And even if a Mormon Church General Authority approves prospective a higher, highere, I guarantee this, if if the Ecclesiastical Clearance Office finds dirt, unapproved beliefs or unapproved teachings or unapproved writings for a candidate, they won't get the job. So I'm calling foul, I'm calling untruths on this claim made by Jenkins.
John Dehlin [01:30:27] She added that the most recent statistics on ecclesiastical clearances, quote, indicates that the overwhelming majority of employees greater than 95% are cleared for employment. Well, that's after word has gotten down to general authorities and departments about what types of candidates are allowed. So I'm sure a lot of the filtering is already going on at the department level and at the dean's level. The dean doesn't want to send up a candidate to a general authority or to the Ecclesiastical Clearing Office to be rejected. And so I'm sure a lot of these candidates are being winnowed out, being weaned out early in the process. But also, how do we know that those statistics are even true?
John Dehlin [01:31:18] The Church could be making them up. The Church could be manufacturing them without transparency there, you know, claims to a 95% approval are pretty meaningless and probably deceptive. I would say that's just my opinion. Y' all may. May have different feelings. The article goes on. Even so, these unspecified rejections can breed speculation and paranoia.
Gender and LGBTQ Concerns on Campus
John Dehlin [01:31:52] And because a few female candidates were rejected after all other interviews appeared to go well, faculty members said some have asked if women were being singled out. Before Gilbert came along, the history department, quote, had been able to cobble together women faculty at a higher percentage than most, said Ed Stratford, who recently left the university where he had taught ancient near east studies for 15 years. The history department had recommended several female faculty candidates who were, quote, cancelled without explanation or deemed ineligible. Stratford said women were more exposed than men.
John Dehlin [01:32:34] The reason given, quote, not a mission fit, close quote, which f sounds like legalese to me. The article continues. For rejecting prospective hires or denying advancements felt like an umbrella euphemism. The former history professor said, it's a cloak under which a number of measures that could not be explained out loud can be hidden. And this is typical legalese, probably advanced by Curtin McConkey, the church's law firm.
John Dehlin [01:33:07] They. They can't ever say, yeah, we're not going to hire women because the woman's place is in the home. We're not going to hire a woman because she's taking the job of a man. We're not going to hire a woman because she's probably a feminist or we don't want to give female students at BYU the impression that. That becoming an academic and pursuing scholarship is even an acceptable thing. Of course, we can't give those reasons for why we're denying a female faculty candidate. So instead, Curt McConkey, you know, what's the approved language that we can use?
John Dehlin [01:33:47] And Curt McConkey come back and says, you know, know, says the quote, not what is it? What does it say? Not a mission fit. Thank you. Not a mission fit. So, you know, those are some of the reasons why, you know, women are likely being denied interview positions at BYU. But of course, Kurt McConi tells, tells the, the departments and the dean, not a mission fit. So that's what we're dealing with here.
John Dehlin [01:34:27] It is unclear who exactly made all these decisions and why. Stratford said, quote, it is a black box that doesn't seem open to anyone but Clark Gilbert. So people are just concerned about the transparency here. He said BYU. This article goes on to say, he said BYU's atmosphere under the CES boss was a, quote, contributing factor in his decision to change careers. These days, faculty members are also noting another worry. And I just want to, I just want to say thank you, Ed Stratford, you know, thank you, Ed Stratford and the other faculty for being willing to speak out. Because even though they've moved on, they still are probably LDs or if they've left the church, they probably still have family and friends who are either on faculty back at BYU or who are still in the church.
John Dehlin [01:35:19] It takes a lot of courage to stand up and speak out about your former employer and about your current or former church. So kudos to Ed Stratford and all the other professors and faculty that are willing to contribute to this article because I'm sure the article couldn't have been written without it.
John Dehlin [01:35:44] Let's go ahead and keep reading from the article. These days, faculty members are also noting another worry. And I'm going to just say right now, this is one of the most disturbing things I read in the entire article.
John Dehlin [01:35:58] The article says previously spouses were invited to accompany a prospective hire to the General Authority interview. In some cases, according to several candidates and faculty members, that now has become required. So let me just restate that. When you, as a possible prospective BYU faculty member, is interviewing with the Mormon Church General Authority, which is weird in of itself for an academic position.
John Dehlin [01:36:29] Now, it's not only optional that you bring your spouse to, to that interview with you, it's required that you bring your spouse to that job interview. You are required to bring your spouse to a job interview with a church leader.
John Dehlin [01:36:49] I'm just like, blown away. But it even gets worse. It is Absolutely unprecedented at other schools, said Petrie, the Kalamazoo College professor. I've never heard of that. On top of that, some lay leaders have threatened to withhold candidate or continuing faculty members ecclesiastical endorsement if their spouses stop attending church.
John Dehlin [01:37:18] A number of faculty members pinned this on Gilbert. Indeed, a longtime professor, said he is, quote, the most proactive and interventionist commissioner we have ever had. We've never seen anyone this aggressive. So think about it now. If you want to be a professor for byu, you can't drink tea, you can't drink coffee, you can't support same sex marriage, you can't speak openly. You probably can't speak openly about being a Democrat or a liberal or you risk being in trouble. You can't disagree with, you know, racist or sexist or homophobic things that the church is saying or has said. You can't have looked at pornography once in the past year and your spouse has to be fully active and faithful in the Mormon Church and you have to pay 10% of your income to the church, etc.
John Dehlin [01:38:15] We're getting ridiculous here. Why in the world should a high caliber academic or scholar who I presume is faithful and committed to the Mormon Church, why should they be punished to either not be allowed to be hired at BYU or to be feared that they'll be fired after fear that they'll be fired from BYU if their spouse is no longer believing and or attending the Mormon Church. And not only is that unfair to the current or the prospective BYU employee, how unfair is it to the spouse that if the spouse just doesn't believe anymore, it feels hurt by the church, is been abused by the church, feels like the church is unethical.
John Dehlin [01:39:03] They're forced now to attend church to hide their disbelief, to attend a church that they don't believe in, that maybe they feel offended by, that maybe has abused them in some way, they're forced to fake it and, and hide and attend a church just so that their spouse can either keep their job or get a job at byu.
John Dehlin [01:39:31] I, I, I think that's abusive. I think that's horrific. And I can't believe that in 2025 a Division 1R1 level university would be requiring that both for the prospective or current employees or for their spouses. And that's why I don't think it's at all exaggeration.
John Dehlin [01:40:01] For the next quote, but before I do that, I just want to quickly thank Teresa Palmer for her comment. Thank you for all your hard work and content and thank you Teresa, both for the word of support and for the super chat. And I want to thank everybody for commenting.
John Dehlin [01:40:19] Thank you everyone. I'm being told that a few of you have liked or followed this channel, that it's higher than 59. I'm not sure what the number's at, but thank all of you who have liked and like this episode, commented on it, or subscribe to this channel.
John Dehlin [01:40:39] But mostly thanks to all of you who donate to Mormon Stories and the Open Stories Foundation. We could not do this without you. Thank you. If you're a longtime or a current donor and and please become a monthly donor, go to mormonstories.org click on the Donate button right now and become a monthly donor. That's the only way we can afford to keep this channel alive. And that's the only way we can afford to do these sorts of episodes okay, so the article goes on to have a subtitle creepy and Orwellian, and it's got a photo here of a man I've met. His name is Frederick Geddix, a retired BYU law professor.
John Dehlin [01:41:19] Frederick Gettick says some new BYU hiring practices are creepy and Orwellian. So this is a former, I assume, a current and active and believing member of the Mormon Church. A recently retired BYU law professor, Frederick Geddes is calling Clark Gilbert and his policies at BYU creepy and Orwellian. Thank you Frederick Geddes, for your candor.
John Dehlin [01:41:47] So it writes. Frederick Gicks was a professor of Constitutional law and legal theory at BYU's J. Reuben Clark Law School for 34 years, enjoying a successful career before retiring in the spring. During the summer, though, one of his junior colleagues asked Geddes to return as a part time adjunct to Team Teach a seminar on Natural law and natural rights. Geddes agreed and thought it all would entail and thought all it would entail would be a call to his bishop. Sorry, I just botched that. G agreed and thought all it would entail would be a call to his bishop for clearance. To his dismay, G discovered he was required to open an account with a background investigating firm which advertised its expertise as scraping off the Internet every bit of information about a person.
John Dehlin [01:42:42] He asked a senior administrator about it and was told the company was checking only for criminal convictions in the past seven years and whether he had earned the degrees. He claimed the official denied any knowledge of what the Ecclesiastical Clearance Office might be looking for. G said and closed by saying more or less quote, that if I didn't like the process, I simply shouldn't apply without specifics. Without specific details, Gettex assumed the firm would prepare an in depth report on him and his life's work. There's actually no disclosure of what the eco is interested in, he said. So I can't say for sure what it's looking for.
John Dehlin [01:43:24] The legal expert began to wonder if there were items on his curriculum vitae that, quote, could be seen as liabilities, like his work with the American Civil Liberties Union and Obergefell the landmark Supreme Court decision legalizing same sex marriage. He said, quote, the I have gay relatives, so we have hung a pride flag. So again, here's a BYU three decade long retired BYU professor invited to come back and teach and he's afraid that he's not going to be brought back because he may have rendered a legal opinion around a Supreme Court case involving same sex marriage or hung up a pride flag, for heaven's sake.
John Dehlin [01:44:15] So, you know, and he, and, and he does have gay relatives. So the article goes on to say these were aspects of his career that he is proud of. G said, quote, it just irritated me that the process was making me worry about them. Close quote. It also bothered him that strangers were going to look at a report and make a decision about my spirituality without having met me. The process is creepy and Orwellian. G said. They are operating on standards of spirituality that are not disclosed. Gick believed he would have been cleared but didn't want to be part of the process.
John Dehlin [01:44:54] So he called his colleague to say he would pass on teaching that summer. Quote, it betrays a deep lack of trust in the faculty who are already there and in people who apply, he said, and in bishops and regional stake presidents. I just think this is embarrassing. I think BYU should be embarrassed. And I think anybody who is considering attending BYU or working for BYU should have serious pause given these practices.
John Dehlin [01:45:29] And this is a proud graduate historically at byu, someone who felt like he got a great education from BYU and somebody who still wants to see BYU succeed. All right, the article goes on the LGBTQ conundrum and it includes a photo of the. The Y that we referred to earlier in. This is the big white letter Y on. On the side of Timpanogos mountain, I assume. Or that's.
John Dehlin [01:46:03] Maybe it's a different mountain, but it's right off of BYU campus and it's colored in rainbow lighting because several LGBT students and, you know, allies and staff lit the BYUY to be rainbow colored as a sign of support for LGBTQ members, which the church has banned.
John Dehlin [01:46:29] Okay. So the article goes on to say of all the issues that seem to raise the most red flags for Faculty. Any support of LGBTQ rights seems to be the most common. After the new contract required employees to support the church's stance on marriage, family and gender, a number of adjunct professors, including some with decades at BYU campuses, were dropped without explanation.
John Dehlin [01:46:54] So basically what the article is saying is that the Mormon Church scoured the social media accounts and publications and private lives of a ton of BYU faculty and staff and fired them for any indication of supporting same sex marriage and their LGBTQ plus brothers and sisters. That should be deeply alarming.
John Dehlin [01:47:20] It reminds me of Animal Farm, you know, when. When, which is a book by George Orwell. It's sort of this red scare, McCarthy hearings, Salem witch trial, you know, sort of mentality that everyone's terrified to be a supporter of of LGBTQ rights and legally same sex married people. And so they have to hide it or deny it or be silent about it or they fear being fired because that's what the Church is doing at byu.
John Dehlin [01:47:56] After the new contract required employees to support the Church's stance on marriage, family and gender, a number of adjunct professors, including some with decades at BYU campuses, were dropped with that explanation. This is troubling. The Church doesn't even have the guts to just say, we're getting rid of you because you're supporting same sex marriage and LGBTQ rights. They just fire you. And they don't offer an honest explanation that's deceitful. Like all universities, BYU does not have to cite why adjunct contracts weren't went unrenewed. But many, including Sue Bergen, assume it was for their LGBTQ advocacy. And then it goes on to talk about Sue Bergen, who was a BYU faculty member who was fired without an explanation, and she assumes that it was because of her support.
John Dehlin [01:48:49] Goes on to write, Brock Kirwan, who taught neuropsychology at BYU for 15 years, was turned down to direct a study abroad program in Budapest, Hungary, as he had done in 2022. Having a temple recommend, having opted into the new contract, and having a temple worthy wife were apparently not enough. Senior administrators gave him no idea what the problem was. Quote, maybe I posted a few rainbows on social media, equipped Kieran, who took a job in May at the University of Pennsylvania, I would say a step up. So good job, Kieran. As executive director of the Ivy League school's Mind Corps neuroimaging faculty facility on behalf of my two queer kids.
John Dehlin [01:49:36] Another shout out to Jeff Dotson, who writes, who contributes to the article. Jeff Dotson, who had taught in B We's Married School of business since 2013, faced a conflict because of close family, friends and relatives. He wondered how he could endorse the church's position on same sex marriage while supporting his LGBTQ loved ones. He said he felt he would have to lie about his beliefs to keep his job. Dodson began to suffer panic attacks, especially since his wife had recently stepped away from the faith over the issues and turned to his bishop for counsel. A big mistake. Quote I was forthright about my personal struggles, my family's challenges, and my feelings about recent policy changes at the university.
John Dehlin [01:50:21] To his bishop, he explained, despite what I believe to be a productive discussion, the bishop elected to revoke my endorsement a couple of days later. This decision initiated a chain of events where I was placed on probation and told I would be terminated in 90 days unless I resolved the issues with the bishop.
John Dehlin [01:50:43] He ultimately resigned at BYU effective at the end of 2023. 2024 academic year later, after a second interview, the bishop reinstated his endorsement, allowing him to finish out his employment. Dotson ended up securing tenured faculty position at the Ohio State University, which again, I would say is an improvement. So congratulations.
John Dehlin [01:51:08] Dotson. Quote the shift from behavior based to belief based standards raises theological and practical concerns. Dotson said. I personally struggle with the idea of being required to have a testimony of policies which are subject to change as opposed to doctrines. And again, no one's arguing with the Mormon Church's right to employ who it wants or to, you know, terminate people that violate its policies. I just think it's interesting what wars the Mormon Church is, you know, choosing to fight.
John Dehlin [01:51:51] You know, it's, it's basically saying that if you support the idea that women should be treated equally to men, if you hate racism, and if you oppose racism and you speak out about it in any way that references the Church's very problematic racist past, if you support the law of the land, you know that same sex marriage is legal and moral and ethical and worthy. If you just love and support a marginalized community, which I believe Christ would ideally have supported, if you just show love and support for people who choose to love who they want to love and who are just trying to live their quiet, peaceful, happy lives, you're not welcome at a university you're viewed unworthy to teach these students, that's just such a weird hill to die on.
John Dehlin [01:52:54] And then if you think about the professors that are willing to be bigoted, who are willing to be racist, who are willing to be homophobic, who are misogynistic and hate women, I imagine those professors are going to be retained. I imagine Those professors are not going to be screened out by this process.
John Dehlin [01:53:15] It just makes you wonder what type of education you or your family members are going to be receiving. And it's just so weird for a Christian church to be dying on this, on this hill. So the article continues. Distinctive or diminished?
Proposals to Reshape BYU's Identity
John Dehlin [01:53:35] In his 2022 essay, Dare to Be Different, Gilbert outlined the ways universities that started as religious institutions lost their way that he avowed, would not happen at BYU on his watch, quote. While religious identity requires courageous leadership, it also calls for deep structural alignment, Gilbert wrote, taking, quote, steps to ensure that religious governance remains strong, beginning with the selection of university leadership.
John Dehlin [01:54:01] All these changes, observers say, may have contributed to BYU's decline in rankings by U.S. news and World Report from 61 in 2017 to 109 today. They are already affecting BYU's reputation, Petrie said. In the broader academic world, I may be mistaken, but my memory is that during the time I was at BYU, BYU rose to as high as 25th in the US News and World Report rankings for universities in the United States. I could be wrong about that. That's my memory. To see that it's fallen to below 100. To be ranked as low as 109, 109 today is. It's just a really sad thing. For those of us who love BYU and want to see it do well, the article goes on to say the new strategy is a classic purity campaign to root out undesirable people and ideas and to create homogeneity, he said.
John Dehlin [01:55:05] But purity campaigns are always dangerous. They create division, stifle thought and prioritize fear over faith. I'll add that in this case, they promote bigotry. They promote racism, sexism, homophobia, they promote bigotry. And they prevent super qualified professors and teachers and staff members from working at a university.
John Dehlin [01:55:31] And that's just really bad for the students there. Some say they also undermine the worldwide church's shift towards principle based learning and personal responsibility. Jesus did not list, quote, a dozen administrative steps they had to take, Holland said in so here they're using Holland's comments against himself. Holland said in a 2018 General Conference sermon. No, he summarized their task in one fundamental Commandment, love one another as I have loved you. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples if ye have love One to another the problem BYU faculty members are confronting is, closes the article what makes someone a true disciple? And who gets to decide?
John Dehlin [01:56:18] And that's the end of the article. And apparently the answer is Clark Gilbert is the one who decides who's Christlike and what church doctrine is and how it's enforced. And it's chilling, it's disturbing, it's deeply problematic. And I think this is a dark day for byu, for its faculty and for its staff.
John Dehlin [01:56:47] So that's, that's the, that's the Tribune talk. I'm going to I'm going to now turn away from the talk and turn to several articles that the Julia and I pulled together from Reddit and from messages that people sent me privately. And I'm also going to share some of the comments and questions that have been starred by Maven and Julia during this episode. So let's go ahead and jump into it. So this is a comment from Reddit. It basically is. It comes from Throw away for
Guest [01:57:36] for
John Dehlin [01:57:36] AITH aq and the title is the Firing of the BYUI Employees is a Warning Shot to Rexburg. Support your family and risk everything. So this is referring, I believe, to a couple years ago when BYU Idaho started firing employees based on this loyalty oath and based on Clark Gilbert's policies. It writes, my family is from Rexburg and I have parents who work on campus at BYU Idaho. I've been proud of the amount of progress that Rexburg has made in the last five years. They have built an LGBTQ plus center and celebrated pride in the park. Yeah, they definitely could do more, but things were slowly headed in the right direction.
John Dehlin [01:58:20] The fact that employees were fired even though their bishops and stake presidents wholeheartedly endorsed them is crazy. The fact that the question for the endorsement form now is has an open ended question about how the employee feels about LGBTQIA people is so telling.
John Dehlin [01:58:38] So that's weird. An open ended question for an applicant or an employee to say what they think about LGBTQI people. What are they going to say? I hate that they love each other. I hate that they want to get married and enjoy the basic civil rights of normal citizens. That's so weird and disturbing.
John Dehlin [01:58:58] The Reddit post goes on to say Rexburg has very limited employment opportunities. The surrounding towns aren't much better. Professors at BYU Idaho would be very unattractive candidates to any other university due to the lack of published or die mentality on campus. Rexburg is full of bigoted, controlling leaders who are intolerant. If an employee is supportive of their child, it can now be considered a liability to employment. A parent may have to choose between supporting a child and having a job. Many of the families are single income. This could put families in financial ruin. Make no mistake that this is what Holland and I would say Clark Gilbert called for several months ago.
John Dehlin [01:59:42] This is only the beginning of what is going to happen. It will get worse before it gets better. All right, here's the second article or post on ex Mormon Reddit from Cataclysmic Catalyst. It says as area President over Utah, Kevin Pearson, who's an area authority for the church, has banned missionaries from reading the church published Saints book.
John Dehlin [02:00:12] I presume it's because he doesn't want them learning even a whitewashed glossed over version of Mormon Church history that's attempting to be semi factual. Pearson has emphatically stated that progressive prospective missionaries should not pray about whether they should serve a mission. That's the whole moral agency Elder Bednar stuff. He has doubled down on the church monitoring how and where its members wear their underwear.
John Dehlin [02:00:42] As Commissioner of Education Clark Gilbert has cracked down on liberal professors. He has created a structure that bans priests penitent confidentiality for BYU employees. He has asked bishops to report to him whether or not BYU employees sympathize with LGBTQ issues. If they do, they are fired. He has forcefully responded to Jeff Holland's rallying cry for more musket fire in response to liberal, unorthodox or LGBTQ sympathizers. Additionally, Gilbert led a strategy to make Mormon Church owned media KSL Deseret News become a proselyting arm of the Church's PR department.
John Dehlin [02:01:20] Both men are. Well, this is what the person's opinion is Both men are absolute tool bags. Both men are doing their best to be the biggest sycophants to the hardcore members of the Quorum of the Fifteen Oaks. Nelson, Holland and Bednar are the ones they listen to. It's bad for church members and for the future of the church, but for this person writes fun to watch from the outside. I'm going to say it's sad for those of us who care about byu, who are graduates of BYU, and who want to see BYU be its best and brightest.
Student and Community Experiences Under New Policies
John Dehlin [02:02:03] All right, here's Here's a story from a student at BYU who is in a graduate program. This is a particularly disturbing story. I'm going to go ahead and just read it because the font's just too small to read.
John Dehlin [02:02:24] So it says I was in the business school and did one of those. Actually, I'm going to. I'm going to move this forward. I was in the business school and did one of those combined bachelor's master's programs where I got both degrees together and after a total of five years in school, I was in the first weeks of my final year and needed my endorsement renewed. And in that review, I confessed to a bishop, a guy I had a pretty good relationship with, that I periodically viewed pornography. He asked all the inappropriately probing questions how frequently I masturbated, whether it was straight porn or gay porn, did I masturbate to it, did my wife know, etc.
John Dehlin [02:03:05] And after about a half hour of interrogation, he told me he was uncomfortable signing my endorsement, which would allow this student to continue as a student at byu. My heart stopped and my mind started racing with the implications. I already had a job offer. I had already put in four years of time and tuition. My credits wouldn't transfer. Not getting that endorsement would set me back probably two years at least. For a moment, my entire world crumbled as I sat across from the person I believe was representing Christ. The bishop went on to say that he'd like me to read the entire Book of Mormon, then come back in a week to discuss it, to see how much my testimony had grown.
John Dehlin [02:03:45] I went home and couldn't even bring myself to tell my wife about the ultimatum I just received. I was unbelievably ashamed. I started reading, but didn't get very far in a week because I was still in the middle of school. By the time I met with the bishop a week later, I was somewhere in early Alma. Well, congratulations for making it through second Nephi. Anyway, continued. So I decided I would lie to the bishop. I didn't agree with him and concluded that I had gotten caught in leadership roulette. I wasn't going to risk my future over this. And most importantly, I didn't feel like God or Christ would want that for me either.
John Dehlin [02:04:23] I sat down with the bishop again and he asked me how it went. Great. I told him. Finished the whole thing, meaning the Book of Mormon. Had an incredibly spiritual experience doing so. Testimony of the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith and Christ were all strengthened. I played it up, giving him all the answers he was looking for. May have even shed a few tears if I remember correctly. I needed to sell it. He signed the endorsement and I walked out relieved. I finished my program, but it would be another five years before I would step away from the church permanently. It wasn't my first shelf item, but it was the biggest up to that point.
John Dehlin [02:04:57] The bishop is now the stake president and I'm no longer on the church record. So this is even harming the church because it's causing. You know, these types of experiences really do cause people to leave the church. All right, let's keep going. This is from a BYU professor, Former BYU professor, he writes. I was talking to some current faculty members this week. News from their Dean BYU faculty morale is at an all time low going into this fall semester. This is not a surprise to me. The constant attacks on BYU as an academic institution from church leadership were one of the reasons I left. This week's news that new hires have to forfeit any expectation of ecclesiastical confidentiality is surely just more to more just sure to add more fuel to the fire.
John Dehlin [02:05:48] And this was a couple of years ago. Let's go ahead and read some more current ones. This one is from prancinghamster on Reddit. I think the Church is making a conscious effort to weed out the nuanced members. I believe the Church's desire is to have a membership of totally faithful, tithe paying do whatever they're told Individuals. Oops. Not individuals, but rather people stripped of any individuality. One day ago on Reddit, someone who calls themselves Sterling McMurran wrote the most deplorable thing about Gilbert is how his stealths. How he stealths his way through the institution and ruins people's lives without being individually accountable. The yes Men administrators and yes, they are all men.
John Dehlin [02:06:42] I assume they're mostly men, carry out his execution orders for him, and often lie to cover up the truth behind his final hiring decisions. I have known colleagues go through as many as a dozen interviews for a new position, passing all aspects of the hiring process, including the General Authority interview, only to be rejected at the very end without ever being given a clear reason. So this contradicts what I called out as likely untrue statement made by the spokesperson in that Select Tribune article.
John Dehlin [02:07:16] GA decisions are being overridden by Clark Gilbert's committee. Entire searches for new hires, which have taken a year, yes, a year to complete, have been completely scrapped for mysterious reasons at the 11th hour, and the searches have had to be completely relaunched. I know of a recent case where one particular candidate was the only finalist left in the hiring race, having passed the General Authority, faculty and president interviews. The job looked like a given until Clark Gilbert's office struck again when the search was relaunched months later, faculty re leading the search were told they could recommend a finalist candidate, quote, if they wanted, alluding to the bleak reality that they have no power or influence in the hiring process at all, and that presumably the search would again be scrapped over and over, endlessly, unless candidates aligned with Clark Gilbert's despotic will and yes, as the article reports, to disproportionately affect women.
John Dehlin [02:08:23] The thing that's really terrifying about Gilbert is that he is basically a Harvard Business School bro like Kevin Pearson and Reed Nielsen. And that's sadly unlike the fishermen of the New Testament who forsook their nets to follow the nomadic life of a radical mendicant preacher. These businessmen have refused to forsake their net profits and are instead implementing their cruel ideologies in the church for nothing but their own gain and vain ambition.
John Dehlin [02:08:53] Sterling McMurran goes on to write, BYU spokesperson quoted in the article is clearly not to be trusted. And as long as Gilbert is at byu, faculty morale will remain at an all time low. Isn't it time that these leaders stopped blaming their failures of leadership on those they are supposed to be leading? And when is and where is transparency and accountability for those at the top? Those who, I must say, are happily collecting their generous stipends whilst hiding in the clandestine institutional corridors. There's nothing Christian or spiritual about any of it.
John Dehlin [02:09:29] I truly hope reasonable and responsible church leaders read these words of the Tribune so they can intervene on behalf of those who work tirelessly for BYU only to be treated with hostility and contempt. Such behavior ought to have no place in this church.
John Dehlin [02:09:49] So I did get other comments from people who worked with Clark Gilbert. Some of them were positive comments. I'll just read some of those as well. Someone wrote me I had a few trainings under Clark Gilbert for a BYU Idaho program where upper class students gave a college prep course to incoming freshmen. Clark Gilbert was a super nice guy, definitely came off as confident and didn't take any bs. First training, was very energetic and he told a story about his wife hosting a dinner where she swore and to a 20 year old guy he seemed like the man. So he's basically saying Clark Gilbert came off as very impressive.
John Dehlin [02:10:31] Another person wrote me and said Clark Gilbert, I attended Harvard Business School when he was a newish professor there. We had a cordial friendship, sincere guy. He was approachable and remembered me over a decade later. Last time I saw him was during his term leading pathway. He said they were doing miracles with the program and it was clear he believed that was happening. Clark is very smart and genuine. I would also say he doesn't shy from being seen as obsessive in terms of being of being always on the Lord's errand and very dedicated to building the church.
John Dehlin [02:11:10] Another personal comment I got was someone who said my husband works at byu. Since Gilbert was appointed it's been a different environment. Tithing was paid this year in haste because he was afraid he'd lose his job. He went on to say in the past he paid his tithing because he wanted to and would check in with the bishop because he wanted to. Now he pays his tithing. A BYU faculty member or employee because he pays his tithing because he might lose his job if he doesn't and is afraid a bishop might not sign his ecclesiastical paper and cause him to lose his job.
John Dehlin [02:11:54] Here's another really important direct message that I got Hi John, since you asked for relevant stories regarding the present situation at BYU, here's what I'm aware of. Two to three years ago, a member of my ward, a PhD from Michigan State, tenure track faculty at Texas Tech, interviewed for a position at byu. He's an outstanding scholar and a committed member of the church, at least much more than I am. Based on my observation, he was Sunday School President and seemed like he was doing a great job of it. The version I heard of the BYU story through his wife to my wife was that the faculty hire was basically a done deal and the department was excited to get him.
John Dehlin [02:12:34] They had only to undergo the formality of sending him to be interviewed with his wife via 70. In the interview, his wife disclosed her work in support of the LGBTQ community. The job was not offered and he was informed only that the position was not going to be filled and would be closed. Or something along those lines. Which sounds to me like a face saving move by the department in response to being denied the ability to hire the person they wanted. So in this case, it wasn't just that the person was denied because they were supportive of LGBT people. It was, it looks like they were not given the job because this candidate's wife was supportive of LGBT causes.
John Dehlin [02:13:25] So ridiculous. And this is kind of what we're talking about. So now I'm going to go ahead and just sort of come to a final section of this interview where I'm going to just maybe read some of your comments that you made because these have been generously starred by Julia and Maven. So Tristan Lofting wants us to know that Clark Gilbert's PhD is a doctorate of Business Administration. So that's good to know. Our good friend Samuel Pinson writes, BYU has repeatedly improved as it has become less Mormon and more like everybody else.
John Dehlin [02:14:12] I'm not sure what Sam means by that exactly. Connie May Rasmussen writes, Samuel James Pinson BYU is a laughingstock in the scientific and archaeological communities. Delusional is holding on to beliefs that have been proven false. Let's go on. Oh yes, Sam, they're opining on them on that elevator analogy that they showed and making fun of conformity. Samuel Pinson writes, yes, super ironic that they're holding up individuality as something they encourage. They certainly don't appear to Nicholas Anderson writes, it should say, quote, I would like to see a little more hate and segregation at the Lord's temple of learning that that is fair to say that those are potentially the the implications.
John Dehlin [02:15:04] Nicholas, thank you for sharing that. Celeste writes, that elevator metaphor is likely the early members falling into line with polygamy conformity at all costs. Jason Weber or Weber writes, I feel like leaving the church is facing the right direction while everyone around you tells you that you are wrong and deceived. That's a great turn of the metaphor. And it was the Mormon Church that taught us all to do what is right and let the consequence follow.
John Dehlin [02:15:35] So you know, that metaphor cuts both ways. Clark Gilbert Dallin H. Oaks and Mormon Church Leadership E. Brewster writes, never mind the fact that the church adopts the prominent social views at the time it stepped onto the elevator, then refuses to change when everybody else corrects themselves. That's a great point. Abe Brewster Whether it's the Mormon Church stopping its practice of polygamy in response to social pressure, canceling the priesthood ban on a priesthood and temple ban on black members because of social pressure and governmental pressure and its evolution on LGBTQ issues and a million other things, the Mormon Church has shown that it caves to peer pressure.
John Dehlin [02:16:24] So if anything the Mormon Church has done is shown that it excels at caving to peer pressure when it's applied intensely for a long period of time. So it's just weird that the church is a master at caving to social pressure, yet it's making fun of people who do.
John Dehlin [02:16:46] Tyson Hadfield writes, the church eventually complies prophecies and revelators are just behind the curve the by a few decades, that's all. Yeah, if you want to know, you know where the church is going to go. The Mormon church just wait 10 or 20, you know, 20 or 30 years on any social justice movement and in 20 or 30 years you can expect the Mormon Church to conform with the prevailing mores, you know, around social justice. That's just the church's playbook.
John Dehlin [02:17:24] Okay. Some other comments Tech no File writes anecdotally I've heard that by graduates with the graduates with the history degree already aren't taken seriously. Why even pay for a degree, no matter how affordable, if it isn't taken seriously? That's sad.
John Dehlin [02:17:41] That's really sad to hear. Beyond Orthodoxy writes I was fired after 20 years teaching seminary simply because I express doubt. There's no room for doubters in any CES position. They want only loyal, orthodox drones to maintain the inoculation of the youth. JC writes, what was the line about enemies to the Mormon Church, intellectual feminists and homosexuals? Help me out folks. I'm in nevermode trying to catch up. I think it was Boyd K. Packer who basically said that the three great threats to the Mormon Church are gays, so called homosexuals, feminists and intellectuals. I believe that's the quote.
John Dehlin [02:18:20] And of course, you know, that's continued to be the way the Church administers. All right, Funny Fuzz writes, this is a great story to cover and affects a lot of my family. Thanks, John, for covering it. Thanks, Funny Fuzz for the feedback. Kurt Hostetler writes, in my opinion, Gilbert isn't afraid of the press. He's not authorized to speak with them. That's a good point. It may be that Clark Gilbert has no fear about speaking to the press, but he's forbidden.
John Dehlin [02:18:57] 32 Flavors writes, It is insulting to compare a silly elevator peer pressure gimmick to academic standards at a university. I would agree that that is disturbing. Let's see. JC writes on the same footing. Nope, it must be the only footing. The church's truth claims that don't match reality are frauds and lies.
John Dehlin [02:19:20] Not foes, just honest scholars. All right, Life Take Two. Life Take Two does great work on TikTok and Instagram and on YouTube. Now check her out. She writes, it will look like any other radicalized fascist community of leadership. I assume it's talking about the direction of the church.
John Dehlin [02:19:45] Carrie Swords writes and asks, how can these discriminatory employment actions be within accreditation guidelines? And I think that's a good question. I think that's what Elder Holland was saying. If it comes to BYU losing its accreditation or having to cancel entire programs, Elder Holland has already given his direction. He would prefer that. Prefer that than byu. Cave on, you know, its its support of Mormon Church doctrine and theology as it's currently defined.
John Dehlin [02:20:24] All right, well, you know, that's the main, you know, that's the article. Those are some of the main critiques that y' all are sharing. Heidi Christensen writes, my brother has a high level job at BYU and Provo. I wonder if my doubts are a threat to his employment.
John Dehlin [02:20:44] I hope not, Heidi Christensen. I hope not. So just to go ahead and conclude today's episode, this is a really disturbing trend for BYU and for the Mormon Church and not just for byu. Provo, byu, Idaho BYU Hawaii, Ensign College and BYU Pathways.
John Dehlin [02:21:08] By all accounts, Clark Gilbert is a nice guy, a sincere guy, a kind guy. At least that's the personalized direct messages here. But the policies that Clark Gilbert is implementing are, are causing low morale at be at the byu. They're causing great professors to leave, they're causing great professors to be denied employment and they're causing great people to just choose not to apply. They're causing, they're causing BYU's credibility to, to decline. BYU's reputation is in the tank and that's really sad.
John Dehlin [02:21:57] They're, you know, you know, it's good for other quality universities like Iowa State, Ohio State University, like, you know, University of Pennsylvania, you know, uvu, all these other universities that are getting excellent former BYU professors. I guess it's good for them.
John Dehlin [02:22:18] But, but, but I think it's really bad for students at the university and for faculty and for the future. I think I, I think it's safe to say that these policies are promoting bigotry, they're promoting anti LGBTQ hate, they're rewarding racism, they're, they're rewarding misogyny, they're rewarding anti feminism.
John Dehlin [02:22:42] That's a problem. They're causing professors and staff and faculty to live in fear, to lie to their ecclesiastical leaders, to hide who they are, they're causing spouses of faculty and staff to have to hide and lie who they are and to attend church when it may not even be healthy or good for them to do that again. They're degrading the reputation of byu, making it more like Liberty University than University of Notre Dame.
John Dehlin [02:23:17] And they're just unrealistic and misguided, I would say. And again, I'll close by saying it's absolutely the Mormon Church is right and BYU's right to have standards and to enforce them in employment. I just think the Church is picking the wrong hill to die on here.
John Dehlin [02:23:40] It's siding with bigotry at the expense of compassion and love. It's siding with bigotry at the expense of scholarship and science and academic freedom. And it's acting more like an ultra conservative, fundamentalist Christian corporation than it is a Christlike, peace loving, compassionate institution that values science, that values social justice, that values learning, and that wants to provide the best, most compassionate, loving, science backed, evidence based education to its, not just its, you know, current students, but frankly to its future leaders and members. And so I, I do feel sad for the, the cultural body of the current and future Mormon Church because the Mormon Church is, is destined to be more Close minded, less educated, more bigoted, less kind and less Christlike as a result of these decisions.
John Dehlin [02:25:05] And I know that Clark Gilbert doesn't want that result. I know that Jeffrey Holland doesn't want that result. I know that they probably believe that they have the best intentions that. But to me it's pretty clear that that is going to be the results of these policies by Clark Gilbert, by Jeffrey R. Holland. And let me also just conclude by saying it's not Clark Gilbert's fault. I think he is a tool in the hands of Jeffrey R. Holland, Dallin H. Oaks, Russell M. Nelson and other members of the Quorum of the twelve Apostles. Even utter Holland is a tool in the hands of Russell M.
John Dehlin [02:25:46] Nelson and Dallin H. Oaks. It's the church, it's the Mormon Church. It's the system of the Mormon Church at the end of the day that is implementing these policies. And these leaders from Down H. Oaks to Jeffrey R. Holland to Clark Gilbert are, are affected by a system, by a church, by religion that many say is a fraud, that many say is corrupt, that many say is rotten, that many say views science and education as enemies and that embraces bigotry. If you know, you know, if that has to do with, with white skinned people versus dark skinned people or men versus women or straight people versus LGBT people, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
John Dehlin [02:26:49] The Mormon Church for its history has proven time and time again to be, to have a racist doctrine and theology, anti women, sexist doctrine and theology and homophobic doctrine and theology. And I'm just going to add anti science, anti evidence, anti intellectual, anti scholarship, doctrine and theology. That's the Church, that's its doctrine, that's its scriptures, that's its administration.
John Dehlin [02:27:27] And so let's not be unkind to Clark Gilbert. Let's not be unkind to the people who have set this up. Let's just recognize the Mormon Church for what it continues to be. An institute of $250 billion plus organization that is systemically, doctrinally, culturally, spiritually and organizationally racist, sexist, bigoted, homophobic, anti intellectual and anti science.
John Dehlin [02:28:10] And that's where we are. And so it makes sense that BYU would move in this direction. So my condolences to BYU students out there, my condolences to BYU faculty and staff out there. I feel sorry for you that you have to hide and lie who you are and that you have to be a second rate teacher, a second rate scholar to be a BYU faculty or staff and that you have to get a second rate bigoted education As a BYU student, I'm really sorry for all of you that that's the environment that you're living in.
John Dehlin [02:28:50] And more importantly, I'm really sorry to all the people who have all the students that have to leave BYU and lose a semester or two of credits, lose time, lose money to transfer because they can't swallow remaining in a bigoted, racist, sexist, homophobic, anti intellectual university.
John Dehlin [02:29:17] I'm sorry. I'm sad that that is happening is going to continue to happen. I'm happy for the professors who leave BYU and find better jobs at better universities. I'm sad for BYU professors who get kicked out of or leave BYU and because they worked for byu, are not able to get credible jobs at credible universities or institutions of higher learning because they have the stain of BYU's reputation on their CVS, on their resumes.
John Dehlin [02:29:56] That's sad. I'm really sad that that is the case. And the final thing I want to say is, given these policies and practices, as sad as it is for me as a BYU student, as a proud, once proud BYU graduate who feels like he got a fantastic education at byu, who met his wife at byu,
Guest [02:30:25] I
John Dehlin [02:30:25] feel like my recommendation to anyone considering going to BYU is don't do it. Don't go to byu. Do not apply and attend a bigoted, racist, sexist, homophobic, anti intellectual, anti science university. Don't do it. Go to uvu. Go to Utah State University. Go to University of Utah. Go to Southern Utah University or Utah Tech.
John Dehlin [02:30:58] Go to Arizona State or University of Arizona. Go to Boise State. Go to University of Idaho. Did I mention Utah Valley? Go to Salt Lake Community College. There are so many good universities and colleges that aren't racist, sexist, homophobic, anti science and anti intellectual and that don't wield their bigoted ideologies and doctrines and theologies in ways that are so harming to so many people. Don't do it. Don't apply there.
John Dehlin [02:31:29] Don't build your career around working for BYU and don't go there. And if you're forced to hide and lie to stay at BYU to keep your to be able to get your degree, my deepest condolences. We're here for you. Email me@mormonstoriesmail.com and I will help you find other BYU students who you can find community with while you're trying to survive your education to get your degree.
John Dehlin [02:32:06] If you're faculty or staff, email me@mormonstoriesmail.com and I'll do my best to help you find a new job. If there's Any way I can support you? You know, we'll do all that we can. Anyway, it feels like a dark day for BYU and its various universities.
John Dehlin [02:32:27] I'm sorry to end this particular episode on a downer, but let's just hope that this press, you know, changes things. Let's hope that the attention that this Salt Lake Tribune article has brought to this situation, let's. Let's hope that this episode and the others who are going to cover it, let's hope that all of you speaking out in various ways makes the Mormon Church reconsider. Let's hope that Elder Holland either steps down or is no longer over byu. Let's hope that Clark Gilbert either changes his ways or at some point gets relieved.
Closing Thoughts and Call for Accountability
John Dehlin [02:33:13] And let's hope that BYU can return to a better institution. Let's hope that there's backlash by the press, by the media, by students, by faculty, by staff, by members, by tithe paying members. Let's hope that there's backlash and feedback that causes the church to change these policies because it would be fantastic. No one would be happier, I think, than me if that happens. I want to thank the Salt Lake Tribune for producing this article.
John Dehlin [02:33:45] I want to thank again all the current faculty members and staff members who anonymously shared their experiences with the Salt Lake Tribune. And I want to thank all the former faculty and staff who were willing to speak up and be a part of this article.
John Dehlin [02:34:07] Thank you. I'm grateful for the Salt Lake Tribune. I want to thank Julia for her help preparing for this article for this episode, and Maven for helping with the moderation. And lastly, I want to thank all the wonderful people who commented. I want to thank the donors who donate to the Mormon Stories and the Open Stories Foundation. We couldn't do this episode without you.
John Dehlin [02:34:27] So thank you. If you're a regular recurring donor. If you're not, I want to just ask you as a final plea to please go to MormonStories.org, click on the donate button. Become a Monthly donor. We have lost a ton of donors in 2024 and if we don't replace them, we risk having to reduce our services and our coverage and our programming.
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John Dehlin [02:35:19] So please support us. You can also support us by subscribing to this YouTube channel. Subscribing to us on TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, Facebook, again, YouTube, and I'm sure I'm forgetting somewhere and liking us and sharing these episodes. That's all super helpful.
John Dehlin [02:35:39] Also, I just want to make sure everyone knows that in a few minutes. If you're joining us live, the Mormon Newscast with Bill Real, Radio Free Mormon and Rebecca Biblioteca is going to be covering this topic. Please check out that podcast as well. They do great work.
John Dehlin [02:35:58] I also want to thank Gerardo and Brooklyn and Margi and all of those in the Open Stories foundation for all that they do as well. So thanks for joining us today. Hope you enjoyed this episode. Please email us with any feedback@mormonstoriesmail.com if you want to be on Mormon Stories Podcast as a guest, go to mormonstories.org, apply. To become a guest, you have to make a three minute video.
John Dehlin [02:36:24] We're always looking for people to bring on interesting stories. If you've got a story of being a former BYU employee or current BYU employee or faculty or staff and you want to tell your story, we would love to have you apply to be on Mormon Stories Podcast. We always love insider stories of church employees, BYU employees, etc willing to tell their stories.
John Dehlin [02:36:52] So please apply. And again, you can always comment on these episodes to give us any feedback. All right, thanks for joining us today. We appreciate all that you all do. We've got lots of good programming coming up in the days, weeks and months ahead. Be good to each other, be kind to each other and we appreciate all your support and we'll see you all again very soon on another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast. Take care everybody.
Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.
Thumbnail Credits: Image of campus from ABC 4 News.
One Response
This is also what happened to me in the spring of 2022. I was applying be a full time seminary teacher here in salt lake county & had passed every part of the process (over a year long- including student teaching at 2 high schools, & months of training classes provided by the church to potential teachers). I had passed every part of the process & finally arrived at my GA interview at the church office building (yes my husband was required to attended). After this interview, I was rejected with no explanation to why. Not a fit. The interview in April of 2022 was odd & included the exact questions about family and heavenly mother & the family proclamation. I felt from the moment it happened that it must have been my sympathetic answers to the lgbt questions but never had any validation for that feeling. I was also told I could not even sub as a seminary teacher after this experience. A 14 month application process over in a moment with no explanation. This isn’t just a BYU thing – seminary & institute teachers are held to the same policies too. Sad for the many lgbt youth who are suicidal in our state. Very very sad.