Episode Transcript
Host: John Dehlin · Co-host: Jenn Kamp · Guest: Emma
This transcript is machine-generated and lightly edited for readability. The audio is authoritative. Please excuse occasional errors in names and spelling.
Welcome Back and Episode Introduction
John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John. We are joined in part three with the newest member of our Open Stories foundation family, Jen camp. Hey, Jen. Hi.
Jenn Kamp [00:00:13] Hi, everyone.
John Dehlin [00:00:14] Thanks for filling in for Kara.
Jenn Kamp [00:00:16] Of course, anytime.
John Dehlin [00:00:17] Yeah, you're always wonderful to have as a co host, so thank you.
Jenn Kamp [00:00:21] Thank you. Yeah, happy to be here.
John Dehlin [00:00:24] Some people may not know that. I'll just say this really quickly that Jen is kind of a director of operations for us and, and she's in charge of events. And we try not to fill the early parts of these interviews with tons of announcement these days. But if you had like 10 seconds to talk about events, what would you say?
Jenn Kamp [00:00:42] We're going to do an events little announcement tomorrow. I'm not sure when this will air, but yeah, after tomorrow probably. But we have a workshop with John and Margi coming up in March. Our alpine event on Sunday is full and, and the support groups are happening every Tuesday. A lot of them are full. I think just St. George and the online still have some spots available. So if that works for you, jump on there and look for that announcement of all the next fun things happening
John Dehlin [00:01:12] coming soon, including a mixed faith marriage retreat with Julie d' Azevito Hanks in July. Is that right?
Jenn Kamp [00:01:17] Yeah, July. Yeah, mid July. And that's on the website too under events tab.
John Dehlin [00:01:22] And you're planning a kind of some women's activities, right?
Jenn Kamp [00:01:25] I know, I'm super excited to announce that. So kind of think of it like Release Society, but a million times better.
John Dehlin [00:01:33] All right, go to MormonStories.org events to find out about all upcoming events.
Jenn Kamp [00:01:39] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:01:40] All right, well, we're in part three of our interview with Emma and the interview is about growing up as a Mormon prepper, sort of a millennialistic, end of times, fundamentalist kind of Mormon. So part one was Emma's upbringing in sort of rural Colorado to a fundamentalist, conservative, non polygamous Mormon family. That was part one. And we took part one all the way up to Emma leaving on a mission. And then we took a bit of a detour for part two where Emma talked about serving a mission in the Philippines and the just baptism corruption that was going on there as has gone on in Latin America and England and Japan and Africa within, you know, Mormon missionary work. And that was a gripping, very important episode. I was so happy with it. And now we're going to just sort of COVID you coming home from your mission and you learning some things about your own identity, sexual identity and going to byu, Preparation provo and dealing with a faith transition. And that's what we're covering for part three. It'll probably be about an hour to hour and 15 minutes. But Emma, where do you want to. Where do you want to pick up from where you left off after your mission?
Life After the Mission and Early Doubts
Emma [00:02:58] Yeah, so I kind of mentioned this in the last part, but after my mission, I didn't really know what to do with life. From the way I was raised, I just. College didn't seem super important because I was planning on being a stay at home mom. And also I was never sure when the world was going to end. And so it didn't seem important to prepare for those things. While I was on my mission, I prayed a lot about where I should go. And I never really felt like I got an answer, but this town that I went to high school in just seemed appealing. And I was like, oh, I can keep being a missionary there because it was a branch. I had moved from a huge ward to a branch in this town. So I moved there. My family didn't live there anymore, and I started working in a hotel and there were like no members around me. And so then I was like in this member missionary mode. But it kind of started to open my eyes.
John Dehlin [00:03:51] What does that mean, member missionary?
Emma [00:03:53] Yeah, it's a lot in the culture where even as a member, you're supposed to be a missionary. You're supposed to constantly be looking for people to share the gospel with, to hopefully have them be baptized someday. And even though my mission was like a really terrible experience for me, I just hoped that I could maybe have that experience, but in a better way at home. So I moved to this town and started working this hotel. And that's actually where I was just hanging out with some coworkers. And I had my first drink. What? It was just kind of out of the blue. And I felt so terrible. I was like, I just felt for temptation. I'm such a terrible person.
John Dehlin [00:04:35] The Mormons don't drink alcohol. And that's one of the worst things. To this day, I still haven't tried alcohol, but. But you're this orthodox, almost prepper Mormon girl, returned missionary. That's a big deal. That you would fall to sin. That's a big deal.
Emma [00:04:52] Yeah, it was. It was a really big deal. And I also felt double terrible because at the time I was in the branch young women's presidency, but was so weird because I had gone to high school with the girls that were in the oldest category. They were laurels. And I had gone to high school with Them. And now I was in their presidency. And I remember I had the drink, and then I drove down 40 minutes to the church and then taught a lesson. It was, like, under the influence. Well, it was just one drink, and it was mostly juice, so it was like, I wasn't even buzzed.
John Dehlin [00:05:24] So why would you be tempted to drink alcohol as a returned missionary? Like, what was going through your brain? Like, even from a mental health perspective, what do you think was going on?
Emma [00:05:35] Um, I had no member friends. I was, like, the only person my age that lived. It was a really tiny branch. I think 30 people would go to church, and my co workers were my friends, and one of them was the bartender at this hotel. And we were all just hanging out, and we were just talking, and they were like, you've never had a drink before. And I just felt like I was the time I was 21 years old, and I was like, I have not even experienced all these sorts of parts of life. I definitely wanted to feel included in the crowd.
John Dehlin [00:06:06] You know, we call this in Mormonism. Do you.
Emma [00:06:10] I can't even think of it, but I'm sure pressure. Oh, yeah. Peer pressure. Yep, definite peer pressure. And I remember my parents calling me the next day, and they were like, are you okay? Did something go wrong? And I was like, oh, they know everything. The spirit of discernment. They knew what happened, but they had no idea. So that was kind of like the first. And, you know, I had one drink. I didn't even feel buzzed. I didn't become an alcoholic, which was what I had, you know, been taught my whole life. You know, you have one drink, and it's over. And I didn't have another drink for months and months and months after that, maybe even a whole year. So that was just kind of like a. Huh. Like, I thought something really bad was gonna happen to me because I was so sinful, and nothing had happened.
John Dehlin [00:06:55] Did you like it?
Emma [00:06:57] Yeah, it was. It tasted good. The bartender knew that I'd never had a drink before, so he literally put, like, half a shot. And it mostly tasted like juice. It was really yummy.
John Dehlin [00:07:07] Okay.
Emma [00:07:09] But then I moved to Provo overnight. I was like, I need to get out of here. I'm surrounded by Gentiles. Like, I need to go somewhere where I can find my eternal companion and, like, you know, do what I'm supposed to do. So overnight, I, like, told my boss I was quitting, and I moved to Provo.
John Dehlin [00:07:25] Did you repent to your bishop for drinking?
Emma [00:07:28] I did not. I was scared. I didn't Say anything. I did say something once I got to Provo, but not while I was still in Colorado. So then I moved to Provo and was like, you know, rejuvenated. Like, okay, I'm going to do this thing right. And just, like, the question about my mission president kept coming back. And I remember talking to my roommate at the time, and I was just like, I don't know how to forgive him. And so she, like, talked to a professor, and the professor gave her some answer about, like, forgiveness. I think they told me to read the Miracle of Forgiveness.
John Dehlin [00:08:01] Forgive him for what?
Emma [00:08:05] Just, I. I felt like he had done wrong. I thought that everything that happened there was one, sinful and two, just, like, absolutely wrong.
John Dehlin [00:08:16] Like, abusive almost a little bit.
Emma [00:08:18] Yeah. Abusive is power. And I was really upset. And, you know, part of me felt guilt for the things that I did, but I was really blaming most of it on him. And so I was just really angry at him. And I just kind of still had the question of how could a prophet call this kind of person to be a mission president when it's such a big deal? And I would say, you know, they talk about your faith. Breaking is like a shelf. That was the first box I had put on the shelf where I was like, I don't have the answer, but I'm just gonna forget about it.
John Dehlin [00:08:54] Your mission. Your bad mission experience.
Emma [00:08:56] My bad mission experience. But it kind of kept gnawing at me. And then I sort of tried to talk to my family about it a few times. I would, like, roundabout bring up doubts and questions about the church. I just had this off feeling where I was just like, something's off. But I would always excuse it as I must not be reading my scriptures enough. I must not be praying enough. I must not be doing things right. In recent years, I've been diagnosed with borderline ocd. And so I realized at the time, if I wasn't following the commandments perfectly, I was blaming it on myself. Of like, okay, this is why you don't have a great testimony, because you were distracted while you prayed last night. You were thinking about what you did that day instead of, like, praying to God. So I just kind of excused it. And then my questions just. It kept bubbling up, like, the feeling. I didn't have a ton of questions. I had never really read anti Mormon literature. I had heard of it, but I didn't even know what it would include. I just knew it was, like this big bad guy that I was supposed to avoid. But the feeling of something was wrong with this kept boiling up, and then about a year ago, I was like, I need to figure out why. I need to figure out what exact questions I have about my testimony so I can fix it. So I went on a drive for, like, three hours. It was, like, midnight. I was out till 3 in the morning. And I figured out that I was confused, that if we were the one true church, why are other people of other faiths having spiritual experiences? Like, why would God bless them with that if we're the true church?
John Dehlin [00:10:40] And this was at byu? BYU Provo.
Emma [00:10:43] BYU Provo at the time, Yep.
John Dehlin [00:10:46] And so you're having doubts of BYU Provo, and it manifests in you asking, what about the spiritual experiences of other religious people?
Emma [00:10:54] Yep.
John Dehlin [00:10:55] That's how it starts.
Emma [00:10:56] That's how it started for me. It wasn't about, like, social issues. I. You know, like, women in the priesthood, LGBTQ stuff. I was a little clueless about myself at the time. Racism. I just had kind of excused all those things. Like, it was easy for me to excuse, which I think a lot of people start there. But for me, it was doctrinal, where I was confused about, you know, what is truth? How do I know truth? Because this is what the Book of Mormon says. You know, like, by your fruits, you shall know them. But by now, I'd had experience that the church has a lot of bad fruits. So I was like, okay, if there's bad fruits, how are we any different than any other religion? And so then I just had this huge chain of questions. I wrote down a note in a notebook where I was like, okay, we know this church is true because of the Book of Mormon, but there's issues with this because of this and this and this. And so I just kept going in a loop. And finally I was like, I need to talk to some people about this. So I told my roommate, and she kind of freaked out and was like, whoa. Like, you know, don't let Satan influence you. Like, these are not. These questions aren't good. And I told some other friends, and everyone was just kind of like, why, you know, we're at byu. We're all living in BYU housing. We all go to the same ward. And they were all scared. Like, I could see the fear in their eyes of, like, why do you have these questions? And I was scared, too, because what
John Dehlin [00:12:19] does it mean to a BYU student, Brigham Young University student, if you were to lose your faith, what does that mean?
Emma [00:12:26] It has huge consequences on your schooling. Like, you have to talk to. They call them an ecclesiastical leader, which would Be your bishop to get an endorsement every year to attend that school at a certain tuition. And you can't attend BYU if you're not a member, but your tuition like doubles.
John Dehlin [00:12:46] But you, you can only. It's only athletes that are non members really, that attend byu. For the most part.
Emma [00:12:52] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:12:53] But if you lose your faith as a Mormon, you can't keep attending. You have to leave byu. You can't attend BYU as a former Mormon, you're not allowed.
Recognizing and Accepting Her Sexuality
Emma [00:13:03] I did not know that.
John Dehlin [00:13:04] Yeah. Yeah. Because then you're an apostate. And apostates are the most dangerous Mormons in the world. People in the world.
Jenn Kamp [00:13:14] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:13:16] So you get kicked out of school is the answer. Yeah.
Emma [00:13:19] Like if you don't go to church enough or do all. If you don't keep the commandments, you can't get your endorsement, you can't go to school.
John Dehlin [00:13:24] Yeah.
Emma [00:13:25] So a lot of people were really afraid of the questions that I was bringing up. And they would just give me like what we call primary answers that are so simple, like, oh, the answer is Christ, or the answer is just to pray. And I was so frustrated because it's like, don't you think I know those answers? Like, I grew up in this. I served a mission. I know the basic answers, but they aren't good enough for me right now. So that just kept welling up. But I kept, kept excusing it of like, you know, you just must, you must not be doing good enough. You're just not being faithful enough. And then I had a close friend of mine come out as gay. And then that's when all the social issues started to bug me. And at byu, at byu, we were actually roommates at the time.
John Dehlin [00:14:14] You had a roommate come out to you as gay?
Emma [00:14:16] Roommate come out to me as gay. And I kind of knew beforehand. I was like, she hadn't really told me, but I was like, based off of past conversations we've had, I kind of knew. And she came out to me and she came out to her family and we started fighting because she was like, she was still in the church, but I felt out of the church, but I was at the time dealing with a lot of internalized homophobia that I didn't recognize. And the fact that she came out, I was like, scared of that. And so we were just fighting all the time.
John Dehlin [00:14:45] What were you afraid of?
Emma [00:14:47] I was. Well, I had been taught that being gay was a form of attention. That you did it, you made it up. It wasn't like something that was a part of you. It was something that you just did for attention or you did because you were tempted. Like, it could not conceivably just be who you were. And I was afraid of, I don't know, just potential bad consequences that would happen to her, which I don't even now thinking back. I can't even really think of any consequences. But at the time, the fear was real of, like, oh, if you're gay, that's so bad. But, you know, there's not even really good reasons.
John Dehlin [00:15:23] Well, one obvious reason to orthodox Mormon is they could try and make a pass at me. Like, if I had a gay roommate, what if he tries to kiss me? Or what if he tried. You know, that's a Mormon brain. Would. Would definitely wonder about that. What if they see me in my underwear? What if they see me naked? That, you know, they might get aroused or, you know, is that. Was that in there at all or not, or.
Emma [00:15:45] I think a little bit, but I guess that part didn't bug me. And I also think, you know, like, for me, dating had never really been a big deal.
John Dehlin [00:15:57] You hadn't dated boys much.
Emma [00:15:58] I had, like, gone on dates, but I'd never had a boyfriend. But I kind of prided myself on that because I had seen my sisters get in trouble with boys. And so as, like, the youngest kid in the family, it was like, oh, yeah, I'm, like, better than you. I don't get in trouble with boys. And so it was almost like a badge of pride that I wore that I was like, yeah, I'm like, don't get in trouble with boys, and I'm better. But then when it got to the time where it was like, hey, you need to get married, I just didn't seem to click with the guys, and I just didn't understand, and it was just inconceivable to me. And so then when she started to come out, I just started to learn so much about the community that I had never known before. And it started opening my eyes. Around this time, the whole lighting of the Y and rainbow colors happened.
John Dehlin [00:16:47] Explain people what happened there.
Emma [00:16:49] Yeah, so a bunch of BYU students and I think non students band together. They went up, they hiked up the Y, and they held, like, color over the lights so that it looked like a rainbow flag. And it was a big controversy because BYU came out and made a statement that they didn't approve of it. And then protests started happening on campus, where on one end there was people handing out rainbow flags. There were people shouting the family proclamation. On the other side of Campus. There was lots of posters going around. It was kind of a crazy time at byu, and this was all happening out as my friend, as my roommate had just come out, and as I was leaving the faith. This was awesome.
John Dehlin [00:17:32] This is just last year.
Emma [00:17:33] This was just last year. This was really recent.
John Dehlin [00:17:36] So how did you. How did you process protesters, Pro LGBT protesters at byu? Was it like, this is awesome, or this is terrible, or I'm afraid this is annoying? How did you process it?
Emma [00:17:52] Um, before. And I had heard my family voice, this, where it was like, if you are gay, why go to byu? You can choose to go to any other campus. Don't come here like you're not wanted is what I was taught, and that's what I believed. But for the first time in my life, I had a close friend that was dealing with this. And it made me stop. Like, before I was villainizing them, but it made me stop and be like, okay, I'm missing something here. So I had a co worker who was a lesbian, and I just talked to her. She used to be a member. And I was just like, can I ask you a question? How do you feel about the church and gays? And she was just taken aback. She was like, wait, you actually want to talk about this? And I was like, yeah, I'm just confused. I don't know how to deal with this because I had only had the voices before that were like, this is so evil. Like, they have an agenda. But now I had friends that were like, pro lgbtq, and I didn't know how to reconcile. So we started to talk about it, and then that's when I started to realize that I was also queer.
John Dehlin [00:18:57] Okay, wait, so this deserves explanation because maybe the. For someone who's been straight or has not experienced attraction to the same sex or gender, one would think you would know, you know, like. Like, even as a researcher, having researched LGBT stuff, around 13, at least, for men or boys, on average, they start to feel attraction for other boys or men. And by 15, 17, they for sure know they're gay. And then it's just a matter of, like, what to do about it.
Emma [00:19:33] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:19:34] So was that different for you? As you look back in your adolescence, how could you not know until you're 20? What, 21? How could you go till you're 21 not knowing who or, you know, what you're attracted to?
Emma [00:19:51] Like I said, we kind of had extra rules for, like, law of chastity that I explained where not only was it, you know, okay, don't have sex before you're married. But it was, try not to kiss them before you're married.
John Dehlin [00:20:05] A boy?
Emma [00:20:06] Yeah, yeah, try not to kiss a boy before you're married. And so for me, it just kind of stunted that realization because I was like, all right, relationships are bad outside of the context of marriage. And so I didn't even need to worry about it. So I didn't spend a lot of time thinking about who I liked. I mean, I always knew I was kind of different. Like, people would fangirl over celebrities, I. And like, in my time, they loved Justin Bieber in one direction and I had no part in it. And like, now looking back, I should have seen the signs. But at the time, I just thought it was because I was righteous. I was like, oh yeah, I'm so righteous. I don't have to deal with sexual attraction. I just thought it was cause I was better than everyone. And then when I got into the dating realm of dating boys, I was frustrated because it never seemed to work out, you know, where I would either pick someone that was so completely like out of my league or like, wouldn't even take a pass at me that it was not even possible that we could go on dates. But then if there was someone that was interested in me for some reason, I would just be like, well, like, what do you think you're doing? And so I just thought that I hadn't found the right one. You know, coming from parents who met within three days and got engaged, it's not really conventional dating experience. And so I just didn't have any context for what normal pre marriage dating and sexual attraction looked like.
John Dehlin [00:21:39] And so if you're thinking back to your adolescence through young adulthood, do you ever remember feeling attraction for another woman during all those years? Or did you just shut that part off?
Emma [00:21:52] I definitely shoved it deep down. But I remember in high school, I laugh about it now. There was this show called Faking it where two high schoolers, they're girls and they pretend to be lesbians. And then one of them actually falls in love with her best friend in high school. It's a TV show, it's on mtv.
John Dehlin [00:22:11] Okay?
Emma [00:22:12] And I remember like binge watching it when my parents were gone and then like feeling guilty. And so I like, did everything I could to hide it from the watch history. And like, I really liked that show. And I didn't spend time to think about why I liked that show over any other show, but I really like that show. And then just like, I had a roommate one time at BYU Idaho, where we Were watching a movie, and we were cuddling. I feel like it's more normal for girls to be physically affectionate with each other, whereas for guys it's not. So it might be more apparent for them, but for girls, it's more socially normal, which I don't agree with, but that's kind of how it is. And we were watching a movie, and I remember her turning her face, and, like, her nose was touching my cheek, and I just, like, felt these butterflies, and I was like, what is she doing? But I was just, like, so paralyzed that I didn't do anything about it. And then I just kind of forgot about that experience till later. And then this friend I just remember having. In the middle of my faith transition, I had a crush on a girl. It was, like, very brief, and I just, like, completely shut it down and being ignorant and having all the internalized homophobia that I had. I told my roommate that had come out. I was like, it's okay. You can choose who you like. Because I had a crush on her, but I chose not to have a crush on her anymore. And I just think about that sometimes, and I was just like, okay. I didn't really. I was just dealing with so much internalized homophobia that I was saying things that were wrong. But I did have a crush on this girl, but I was like, oh, I can shut it off if I want to.
John Dehlin [00:23:47] Okay. So there were some signs.
Emma [00:23:50] Some signs, but very few. I also identify as demisexual, which, for people who don't know what that is, it's. You don't feel sexual attraction to someone unless you have a strong emotional bond to them. So I think that had a huge part of playing into me not realizing till I was 23.
John Dehlin [00:24:10] I kind of identify that way personally. Yeah. But I just learned it was my daughter Claire that taught me what that term meant. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So you're saying last year, all this rainbow light the Y stuff is happening. Your. Your roommate comes out to you as gay, and then you realize maybe you are. How did. Like, was there. Were there some things that led to you realizing you were. Anything you want to say about that?
Starting a Relationship and Deciding to Come Out
Emma [00:24:41] Yeah, I actually started dating my girlfriend. There's, like, a lot of circumstances that happen there. She is not ready for her story to be told, so I'm just going to kind of gloss over that for her privacy. But that had a huge part in me realizing, because even after we started dating, I just would have, like, knots come up in my stomach where I would just be like, whoa, what am I doing, but then it would just feel so right. So that was kind of the culmination, like I knew before but was afraid to admit it. And then once we started dating, I couldn't ignore it anymore.
John Dehlin [00:25:23] And just to be clear, you were at BYU dating another woman in spite of the honor code and the risks of being caught?
Emma [00:25:33] Yes, I was at BYU at the time, which was really scary. We did things in private a lot where it was just this feeling of fear of nobody can know. But also, it was my first relationship. It was such a huge part of my life. I was also in the middle of a faith transition. And at this point, I felt like my relationship with my family could no longer continue because we had nothing to talk about because I. Church was taboo because I didn't know what to say. Dating was taboo because I was dating a girl and they didn't know. And this was the moment when I was like, I need to tell my family what's going on, because if I don't, we will not have a relationship. And I was afraid that if I did, we wouldn't have a relationship. But I knew if I didn't, there was no chance. And so going back to part one of why I'm sharing the story, I hope out of any of the parts, this is the one they listen to just to actually listen to the story.
Coming Out to Her Prepper Mormon Parents
John Dehlin [00:26:35] So you decide you're gonna come out to your prepper Mormon parents?
Jenn Kamp [00:26:39] I did.
John Dehlin [00:26:40] So when was this?
Emma [00:26:43] This was last July.
John Dehlin [00:26:47] This is so over summer break.
Emma [00:26:49] Over summer.
John Dehlin [00:26:49] Are you at BYU at the time, or is it.
Emma [00:26:51] I wasn't taking classes, but I was still living in BYU housing, like, right below campus, very much surrounded by all members.
John Dehlin [00:27:01] And there's risk to come out to Mormon parents because I've heard of Mormon parents calling bishops or BYU and getting their own kid kicked out of either in trouble with the church or kicked out of byu. Like, I don't know if you even realize the risks that you were taking by coming out to your parents.
Emma [00:27:19] I did, actually. I didn't mention this in the other parts, but I have a sister who left the church when I was in eighth grade. And that was like, the first thing they did was contact her bishop at another sister. Distance from our family for other reasons. And that was another thing they did was contact her bishop. So I knew that the moment I told them, a lot of bad things could happen, but I just didn't know what else to do. And so I chose to withdraw from BYU immediately before they could kick me out.
John Dehlin [00:27:53] So did you withdraw before you told them, or did you tell them and then quickly withdraw?
Emma [00:27:58] I withdrew. And then I actually decided to come forward to my bishop first because I figured if it came from me, it would be better than them calling him in retrospect, because I knew they would contact him.
John Dehlin [00:28:11] And I guess, you know, there's this whole Charlie Bird thing where you can stay at BYU and be gay, maybe even be out. You just can't date, and you can't be in any way sexually romantic or active. So did you consider that option of just, like, having friends, even having a girlfriend, but either just choosing to obey the law of chastity and not be sexually involved or lie? Did you consider those options?
Emma [00:28:40] I did. There's this thing in the community that we call Bishop roulette. I don't know if you've heard of that.
John Dehlin [00:28:46] I may have helped coin it.
Emma [00:28:47] Okay. Okay. That's. Maybe that's where I came from, but, yeah, Bishop roulette, where it really just depends on how your bishop is going to respond. So you have one bishop that is like, it's okay. Like, you know, it's fine that you're gay as long as you don't date anyone, that's okay. But you have another bishop that's like, oh, you're gay. I'm not going to give you your endorsement. Like, the giving of the endorsement by the leader is under their discretion. You know, they have questions, they ask, but for any reason, they could decide to revoke it. And they don't have to give. As far as I know, they don't have to give. Huge reasoning. They could just decide not to give it. So I considered that option, but I had a completely new bishop. He had just been put in as the bishop, and I knew nothing about him. And so I wasn't willing to take the risk because I figured if I tried to apply to different schools without getting kicked out, I would have a better chance of getting into other schools. So I contacted my bishop and I told him. And I won the bishop roulette because I actually had a really positive experience, which I was not expecting. And he told me some things that added to my questioning because at this point, I was pretty sure that I knew the church wasn't true. I had come across Mormon stories podcast on TikTok and like I said, yeah, nuanced hoes podcasts.
John Dehlin [00:30:15] So you saw Kara's TikToks on and what was that like for you to like. I'm really. I want to just spend a tiny bit of time of how TikTok is influencing youth and young adults in Mormonism. So you. You. You have a. You have a smartphone, you're a returned missionary, and you're living in Provo, going to BYU. Do you remember when you installed TikTok?
Emma [00:30:39] I do. It was a couple months before. I was in the middle of my faith. I called it a crisis then. Now I call it a transition. But I knew anti Mormon literature existed. But I was really scared. And I was also scared that if I looked it up, it would, like, devalue the questions that I had. And so I didn't want to go there, but sometimes they would just pop up on my for you page. Like, I saw some interviews. I think one of the interviews, I remember seeing that. Just a clip. I didn't even listen to the whole thing from Mormon Stories podcast was a mother, daughter pair, and their dad slash husband was a bishop, and they both left the church. And I remember being like, whoa. Like, there are people out there that, like, have family members that are bishops and still leave the church.
John Dehlin [00:31:28] So that would be the Mike Sells, I think, where the dad was still a bishop at the time.
Emma [00:31:36] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:31:37] And the mom didn't believe and the daughter came out as lesbian, right?
Emma [00:31:40] I think so, yeah.
John Dehlin [00:31:41] Yeah.
Emma [00:31:42] And so that was just shocking to
John Dehlin [00:31:43] me because that's the show notes, the mic cell. Yeah. Okay, keep going.
Emma [00:31:47] Yeah. It always been painted to me that people who left the church were, like, evil, but also odd ones out. Like, it didn't happen very often, and if they did, they still had a testimony. They just wanted to sin. That's how it was taught to me. But then when these tick tocks would just pop up, I realized that there was a whole other side that I had no idea about. I just thought that I was alone because that's how it had been painted out to be.
John Dehlin [00:32:12] So. And I. I've never actually talked to someone about this because I. I knew that TikTok was going to be big. And so we decided to create the Mormon Stories podcast, TikTok channel, and hire Cara to do it. I've. I've never. They're the first person I met that actually experienced the videos as a faithful Mormon or as a questioning Mormon. So what was it like to see Mormon Stories podcast excerpts? Just show up on your phone in TikTok?
Jenn Kamp [00:32:42] Yeah.
Emma [00:32:43] Well, was it scary?
John Dehlin [00:32:44] Was it exciting? What was it?
Emma [00:32:46] Yeah, I was excited because it kind of took out the guilt of me seeking out this material because it was coming to you. It just popped up. And I. It wasn't like I was after it but then I started to see things about, like, kinderhook plates, and I was like, what? I didn't know what that was.
John Dehlin [00:33:02] Tell. Tell our viewers what that is.
Emma [00:33:05] Yeah, it was a set of plates that they found, and then Joseph Smith said that he was translating them and was like, this is this. And then they later had archaeologists look at it, and it was nothing. What he said it was.
John Dehlin [00:33:18] The plates were. Were made to fool Joseph Smith. And they did fool him.
Jenn Kamp [00:33:23] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:33:23] So. So sneaky anti Mormons faked the creation of these plates to show that Joseph Smith wasn't really translating anything. And Joseph fell for it.
Emma [00:33:34] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:33:34] The Kinderg plates. What else?
Emma [00:33:38] Just, like, different things, like quotes from past prophets that are just so one we don't believe them, but, like, just show how much the church has changed over the years. Even though they say, like, we don't
John Dehlin [00:33:52] change, like racist or sexist or homophobic kind of.
Emma [00:33:56] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:33:56] Statements.
Emma [00:33:57] All of the above.
John Dehlin [00:33:57] Yeah.
Emma [00:33:58] I saw things pop up about Elder Oaks and conversion therapy that really disturbed me. And they were just things, like, to be honest, I haven't even delved into all of these things, but they were just, like, coming at me, and I was like, oh, I knew that this existed, but I never even thought to go look for them. And then I found Mormon Stories Podcast and started to listen to it.
John Dehlin [00:34:22] So you went from TikTok to actual podcast?
Emma [00:34:24] Spotify.
John Dehlin [00:34:25] Yeah, Spotify. Okay.
Emma [00:34:27] And I started listening on Spotify.
John Dehlin [00:34:28] Have you ever heard of Mormon Stories Podcast before that point?
Emma [00:34:31] No, never.
John Dehlin [00:34:32] 2021. And you had never heard of Mormon Stories Podcast? I mean, it's not about Mormon Stories Podcast. I always just refer to the bubble that, like, you're. You're an adult, and the church has been able to keep all these sources of information from you by, you know, either hiding them or making everyone terrified to learn about the church.
Emma [00:34:56] Yeah, I'd never heard of the CES letter. I'd never heard of the podcast. I never heard of ex Mormon Reddit. I had no idea that this entire community existed. I just thought it was, like, evil people trying to get people out of the church. And so then that popped up, and this is around the time that I started to decide to tell my family. And I talked to my sister who had left the church first. She seemed like an easier target. Just a trial run where I was like, hey, I don't believe in this anymore. And she referred some other podcasts to me. There's one called Cultish that gave a story. She's still very much Christian. I identify as agnostic. But she, like, sent some more to me and I began to be braver to look at more things and then. But I also want to be clear that she had no part in me losing my testimony because my family tried to blame it on her later.
John Dehlin [00:35:53] The person who runs Cultish podcast.
Emma [00:35:55] No, my sister, who I talked to first. Yeah, they tried to blame it on her, but I told her first. And then I decided she gave me some advice because she married a non member. And that's kind of why. Not why, but part of why she left the church. And she was like, try not to clump them together. Like, separate the church from other things because they will always group it together. Like, to this day, my family blames her husband for her leaving the church. So I was like, okay, I'm not going to tell my family I'm gay. I'm just going to talk about church first stuff and then we can talk about the gay stuff later. So I called one of my sisters and told her, and she responded okay at first, but then she had her lawyer husband call me back a couple minutes later, and we got in this weird argument where he was, like, trying to put me in a corner, and he was like, oh, you don't believe in covenants anymore? And just throwing all these things at me. And it was terrible. And then I was just. She told me, she was like, if you don't tell anyone else in the family, I will tell them. And I was nervous, but I was rushed into calling everyone in my family because she was like, if you don't call them tonight, I will call them and tell them. So then I was frantically calling up all my siblings and telling them, and I was like, I don't have much time, but I got to tell you. And then I got to call mom and dad, and then I called my parents, and after I told them, all of my family drove nine hours to come to Utah. What?
John Dehlin [00:37:22] From Colorado?
Emma [00:37:23] From Colorado. Well, first my sisters came. They. One of my nieces, my oldest niece was getting married. So they're like, oh, we're just doing wedding dress shopping. But it was definitely, like, exhausting conversations about church doctrine and why I had questions and what was going on.
John Dehlin [00:37:38] It's called an intervention.
Emma [00:37:39] It was an intervention. And then my parents came out that same. It was like an entire week of family coming and bombarding me. And then my parents came and I had work one of the nights they were here, and they were like, you need to not go into work because we're here and this is important. I Was like, if I leave, like if I don't go in, I'm gonna be fired. And they were like, it would be better for you that you got fired than if you left the church. And they were like, we will support you financially, like move home. The reason that you work there is like, because you work there. That's why you're leaving the church. And they like tried to manipulate me that way. And I was like, look, I'm going to work and then we can talk about this later. And while they were here, I wasn't planning on telling them, but I ended up coming out to my family while they were in Utah. And I was just like, that's queer as queer. Yeah. I was like, hey, I like girls.
John Dehlin [00:38:32] What? That's like adding insult to injury. It's like a double slap in the face.
Emma [00:38:36] I know, I. It just kind of came out. I wish I could have separated it more. But they kept saying like, something else must be going on and that's why you're questioning, like you must be doing something else. So I was like, hey, I'm. I'm queer. And it didn't feel safe to tell them that I had a girlfriend. And so I didn't. But then they like sat me down and they were like, you're not, you're lying to us. Like you're not telling us something. But I knew that I couldn't tell them, otherwise bad things would happen. And I was just like, I've told you everything. This is all. And they looked at me and they said, the spirit has confirmed to us that you are telling the truth. And that was the moment I was like, I just lied to your face. And I was like, this whole revelation spirit stuff is a bunch of bs. Like I have evidence now that I can verify. Because they looked at me like, yeah, the spirit told us. And I was like, it didn't because I lied. So that happened and they finally left Utah and then it was just like all sorts of things happened. They were pressuring me. My dad and I got like a yelling match on the phone. Cuz he was like, I still don't believe you. Like I think, you know, you might, you might be lying to me. Even though my mom had said the spirit had confirmed it to her.
John Dehlin [00:39:55] About what?
Emma [00:39:56] That I was sinning somehow.
John Dehlin [00:39:58] Oh.
Emma [00:39:59] Cuz they couldn't conceive that I could have questions without sin.
John Dehlin [00:40:03] Right. So you couldn't be doubting without being gay. But also they were wondering whether you were acting. Because it's one thing to be, to have Gay feelings, which is a relatively modern, you know, thing to be okay with in Mormonism. Well, it's not great to have gay feelings, but at least it's not viewed as evil or sinful to have gay feelings. It's acting on it. That's a problem.
Emma [00:40:28] Yep.
John Dehlin [00:40:28] And they couldn't conceive that you would be having gay feelings without acting on them. Is that right? Okay.
Emma [00:40:35] So then I decided to, you know, our relationships got even worse. I was hoping that they would get better because we could talk about things, but they got even worse. And I was like, well, the only way to do this is to be honest. And so I talked to my girlfriend. I was like, I gotta tell him. And so then I did. And I was like, hey, I have a girlfriend. I, like, drafted an email. And I was like, I'm not taking any phone calls while everyone processes. I'm not taking visitors. I, like, set clear boundaries because I knew they would all want to show back up.
John Dehlin [00:41:07] In Utah, did you have any guide to help you know, how to come out? Like, are there any resources for young Mormons coming out as queer to their families? Was there a club? Was there a website? Any resources?
Emma [00:41:20] I think there are, but I didn't use them. I listened to some of the Mormon stories about talking about church for family, and I did everything.
John Dehlin [00:41:28] Mormon faith crisis episodes. We'll. We'll include that in the show notes. Yeah, about coming out to believing family and friends.
Emma [00:41:34] I listened to that after I told them, and I did everything you basically said not to do. So.
John Dehlin [00:41:39] Oops.
Emma [00:41:40] I know. I wish I would have listened to it first, but I think there are resources. There are resources. Like the Out Foundation. I have since gone to them and used that as a resource. Encircle is this house in Provo where you can go and have a safe space. They offer therapy. They have other support groups. I now attend UVU and they have support groups. So there are support groups, but at the time, I was not using them.
John Dehlin [00:42:07] Okay.
Emma [00:42:09] So I told him I had a girlfriend. And then that's kind of when all hell broke loose. My father, in particularly, does had a really difficult time. I set the boundary that I wasn't taking phone calls. And then he just kept messaging me and was like, you need to call me tonight. And I was like, nope, you can send me an email. I'll read it and I'll respond tomorrow. And he was like, I am waiting up. You call me tonight or I'm showing up in Utah.
John Dehlin [00:42:37] Whoa.
Emma [00:42:38] And I was like, nope, I told you what to expect. Don't come out here. And for a week I stayed at someone else's house because I was afraid that my family was going to come to Utah. I purchased a car, but the title was in my parents name. I was afraid of them possibly putting out a warrant for my car. There was just a week where I didn't go to my apartment because I knew that they could find me there. And I just was afraid of what would happen. And then prior to me telling them I had a girlfriend, I had to go to the emergency room. I had like thrown up some blood. It was probably a stress response. And at the time we didn't have insurance. My parents don't really believe in insurance, so it was self pay.
John Dehlin [00:43:26] That's something we didn't talk about. But you and Kara were talking about during the break that just like Tara Westover in the prepper sort of culture, there's a real suspicion of doctors and hospitals. Is that right?
Emma [00:43:38] Yes. We never really went to the doctor growing up. We used essential oils to cure headaches and different things. I mean, ironically, my dad has diabetes, so they go to the doctor for that. But anything else, it's very suspect. Okay, so we don't really have insurance because the idea is we don't really use doctors. We had just enough to like not be fine during Obamacare, but that was it. So then when I went to the emergency room, it was self pay and it was over a thousand dollars and I didn't want to be financially dependent on my parents, so I told them. I was like, don't worry, I'll pay for it. But they insisted. So they sent me a check and I was like, well, if they insist, I'll take it. So I deposited the check. And then after I came out and told them I had a girlfriend, they put a stop payment on the check.
John Dehlin [00:44:25] Whoa.
Emma [00:44:26] And they didn't tell me. I found out from the bank the money just disappeared from my bank account. And then when I asked them about it, they told me that they could not possibly give any financial aid to someone living a gay lifestyle because that was against their beliefs. And I think it goes back to the temple interview questions where they ask you if you support any gay or. I don't know how they word it, but it's a question in the temple interview. And I think that that was weighing on their conscience. And so they took back that money. They told me I had till the end of the year to find a new phone plan and to get off their health insurance. And I mean, I was otherwise financially Independent. But anything that I had involved with them, they just took away.
John Dehlin [00:45:15] So when your parents found out you were gay and had a girlfriend, they cut off, they canceled the checks to pay for your medical bills and cut you off of their phone plan because they interpreted the Mormon Temple ceremony about not the Mormon Temple recommend question about not affiliating with or supporting causes that teach things contrary to the gospel. They interpreted you and your lifestyle as being in contrary to the gospel. So they had to cut you off as their own child. Is that right?
Emma [00:45:51] Which they haven't confirmed, but I'm guessing that that's part of it. They didn't straight up tell me that, but yeah, they did that. My father sent me an email and basically disowned me and was like my little girl is dead to me and was basically like, I will not have a relationship with you unless you come back to church and change your life and stop being gay. And so I called at this point, we didn't really have a phone call relationship because I had cut that off. It always led to fighting. And so I called and I was like, hey, I got this email. Did I interpret it correctly? And he said like four sentences to me. He said, I don't want to know what you're planning. I don't want to know about your life, I don't want to know about your partner. I don't want to talk to you. And he just kind of kept yelling and I was just like, hey, if you believe what you believe, I would suggest you look at the church website because they have sources that talk about not excluding gay members from family circles. They definitely take. The church takes a different position than my family was taking. But because of past, you know, I think my family is stuck in the 80s way that the church talked about homosexuality.
John Dehlin [00:47:01] And so be Kimball Boyd K. Packer down a jokes just. Yeah. They were taught for decades. You don't accept your child or their partner that it's all evil basically. And how do you unwind? You don't just come out with a new website that your parents had probably never seen or knew about. And all of a sudden they change. 60 years of conditioning, right?
Family Fallout and Being Disowned
Emma [00:47:22] Yeah. So even though the church has changed their stance, that was my parents era and that's how they view it. And so my dad pretty much disowned me. My mom was definitely in a different camp. She didn't know about him putting a stop payment on the check. She definitely didn't agree with everything else that he was doing. He was kind of spearheading that. So I still have a sort of relationship with her, but those are the things they did, and that's how they responded. I had family members, you know that we have a group family chat, and they just like, send out articles. I tried to reach out to a brother and I stopped by with some cookies with my girlfriend just to be like, hey, I still want you in my life. And then he didn't say thank you. He just sent an article with Elder Oaks in an interview, you know, just saying Elder Oaks things about how homosexuality is so wrong. He just sent that to the group family chat and was like, I appreciated how this clarified about the church's views on homosexuality. So you asked about me being worried about ruining family relationships. But with this, with this interview, with this interview. But the fact that I am gay kind of did that for me already. And that they are true believing members. It just doesn't fit in their world to have a gay daughter.
John Dehlin [00:48:43] And this is part of the paradox or the irony, because if you had asked the Mormon, if you ask an orthodox Mormon what's most important to Mormons, to an outsider, they might say, family. The family is the most important thing. And I know growing up, I would have said, yeah, God and Joseph Smith in the Book of Mormon. But family is like one of the core Mormon principles. So I know Mormons believe that. I think your parents and your family members believe that. But there's a huge asterisk because while the Mormon Church teaches that families are super important, the church comes first before.
Emma [00:49:21] Before family, if it intervenes.
John Dehlin [00:49:23] At least it was that way in your family.
Jenn Kamp [00:49:25] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:49:27] You're not, you're not. Like, we have different emotional profiles on Mormon stories. Some would be telling the story with a lot of emotion.
Emma [00:49:35] Yeah, sorry, I'm laughing.
John Dehlin [00:49:37] No, no. Like, how do you. I'm really just. I'm not saying, why aren't you crying? I'm saying, like, how. How has this been for you? How has this felt for you? That's all.
Emma [00:49:49] Yeah, well, I go to therapy now, which is great, but I actually have talked to my therapist about this a lot, where I just. Emotion is too overwhelming. And so I just. It's safer for me to not feel like even as I'm telling this story, I'm very disconnected from everything that has happened in my life the past few months. And, you know, there have been moments when my dad sent the email and disowned me. It wrecked me for a few hours. But to continue living, I just kind of have to shut it off and I get jealous Sometimes I have a co worker that recently came out and her family is members and they responded so positively and, you know, like, this is just a very human emotion. I was just so jealous that she could have a similar experience to me but not have to deal with all the fallout that I'm dealing with. And, you know, it's not her fault, but it just felt kind of unfair that this was an experience. But,
John Dehlin [00:50:55] Jen, what does it feel like to hear the story for you?
Jenn Kamp [00:51:01] It's just kind of heartbreaking, to be honest. You know, I. I remember I've only been out about a year and a half also, and I just remember having thoughts, you know, similar to just being ignorant of the queer community and how it kind of like tugs on my heart now, now that I know more and I've gotten to know people and don't have this list of boxes people need to check off, you know, and it's just. It's hard for me now to hear the church say that you can't act on love. And when God, their God, says that the first two commandments are to love, so to love him and to love others, and then they tell you that you can't. And so it's just hard. It's just heartbreaking now. It's just hard to hear.
John Dehlin [00:52:34] And what about the family rejection piece?
Jenn Kamp [00:52:37] Yeah, the family. If family is the most important thing in, you know, eternity, like everything that they preach, why would they want to break up so many. And. And it does their. What they teach. That's what it does. It. It breaks them up. And I wish that they would maybe step back for a minute and actually think and see and listen to. To stories and open their mind and their heart to maybe the way that their God should love.
Emma [00:53:23] So.
Jenn Kamp [00:53:23] I'm so sorry.
Emma [00:53:25] I appreciate that. Thank you.
John Dehlin [00:53:29] Yeah. And basically your coping mechanism has been to disassociate and to wall yourself off from your feelings. And I relate to that. That's. That's how I've been for. For many decades.
Emma [00:53:41] Yeah. And I mean, sometimes I wish I could be more connected to it, but the times that I am, it's almost debilitating. Like, yeah, I've told this whole story with almost no emotion, but when I do think about it, like, I have lost my family. I lost my community. You know, the church used to be my only community. Now that I'm not a part of it, I don't even know how to make friends when I'm not at church. Like, I lost the entire beginning of my life. Yeah. It feels When I like connect to it, it feels like I lost everything to be who I am. And it feels unfair. And it feels like, yeah, just unfair.
John Dehlin [00:54:28] And you weren't just Mormon, you were super Mormon.
Emma [00:54:31] Yeah, extremely. Fundamentalists. Like my parents, I just remember them talking about gay people in the past. And yeah, they would just say things like, oh, yeah, like it's. They do it for attention. They make it up like, this isn't a real thing. And we just took everything to the extreme. And the fact that this, like, even though they think they did everything right and. And then this still happened, I think they can't even reconcile that. Or it's like, oh, we were so righteous. How do we have a gay daughter? And so I recognize that it's hard for them. And they are also experiencing loss of who they thought I should be. And. But they were taught by the church that this is the way life should go.
John Dehlin [00:55:22] Terrible to say this, but in some ways you. To live your authentic life, you became your parents worst nightmare.
Emma [00:55:30] Yeah, they sent me, My dad sent me a couple emails where he was like, you are putting us in the grave. And he was like, you're being inhumane. And cruel was one of the phrases he used.
John Dehlin [00:55:45] You're being inhumane.
Emma [00:55:47] And he also at one point had sent a text. I was like doing no contact with him because I was very toxic. And he had sent me a text and was alluding to suicidal thoughts and that it was my fault.
John Dehlin [00:55:59] His.
Emma [00:55:59] His suicidal thoughts. And it was my fault because I did this to them. And that was a really hard moment because I had set a boundary and I was like, I don't want to break this boundary for myself, but I also, I want you to be okay. But I realized it was a form of manipulation. It was a huge form of manipulation to get me to come back to church, to get me to do all these things. And I don't even think that he realizes what he was doing.
John Dehlin [00:56:35] Yeah, yeah. And it should be your place to grieve, your place to be angry, your place to even have suicidal ideation. And in some sense you can't even do that because your dads or your parents are making it about them. Not. Not intentionally. That's. I mean, in some sense we talk about systems and not people. Sometimes listeners and viewers don't like that. But the truth is your parents were taught that if they were super righteous, their kids wouldn't fall away. If they had family prayer, family evening, if they were righteous, they raised you in faith, you wouldn't waver. So in Some sense they were taught that.
Jenn Kamp [00:57:18] I think that's one of the. One of the most hurtful things of the church also, is this narrative that they say that to people, that they say, if you're faithful enough, then this and this and this is going to happen. Like it is. Like that's what's going to happen. And when it doesn't and the person is a good person and they've done nothing wrong, and then they feel shame. They feel fear and shame and all these emotions and start labeling themselves in these ways that are not true. They're just not true. And it's the church teaching them. It's the church telling them that that is the way that they are when they're not. When that's not true. And I think that's one of the most hurtful things about the church.
John Dehlin [00:58:17] Yeah. Because even though they're telling you your disappointment and that you're selfish, what they're really feeling is guilt and shame that they weren't good, righteous parents.
Emma [00:58:27] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:58:28] It feels personal to you, but really they're. They're disappointed in themselves.
Emma [00:58:33] There is a scripture, I think it's in the Book of Mormon that talks about the. The fault be upon the head of the parents. Like, if anything goes wrong with the children, it's the parents fault. And I know that they feel that. And it's. Yeah. And like, I know that the church tries especially with, like, LGBTQ stuff. You know, when the 2015 policy came out, and it's like, oh, it's really to help the families not to tear them apart. You know, they try to take this family centered approach. And whether they realize what they're actually doing or not, it's. It really is tearing apart families and just creating this culture of shame and guilt that's really hard to escape.
John Dehlin [00:59:18] Yeah. So anti LGBT policies not only hurt LGBTQ Mormons, they hurt straight parents and family members as well.
Emma [00:59:27] Right?
John Dehlin [00:59:28] Yeah. Really quickly. For those who would be inclined to think, oh, it was abuse, or it was a choice, or it was a tension or rebellion, can you just briefly talk about once you fell for your girlfriend and was able to open yourself up to feeling the full range of attraction and love, was it something like a choice? Was it like, ambiguous? Like, what was it like to feel love and attraction for the first time?
Navigating Faith Transition and New Identity
Emma [01:00:05] Honestly, it was, I would say, maybe different than most people because I was dealing with my faith transition at the same time as coming out. And so I had a lot of those feelings myself where I was like, I'm making a bad choice or I am sinning and I was dealing with that. Like at times I would be like, yep, I'm choosing this and it's really bad. But in the moments of calm, like in my baseline, when I'm not overwhelmed with like anxious thoughts and shame and guilt, I feel happy when I'm with her and like I feel love in ways that I didn't feel before. And that's what tells me that this isn't a bad thing. And it, you know, who knows if it's choice or not, but when I think about not being with her or being back in the church, that's when all the anxious thoughts come back.
John Dehlin [01:01:06] What about when you think about the possibility of being with men? Like being a girlfriend to a guy?
Emma [01:01:13] Yeah, I'm honestly still on a journey with my own sexual orientation. I came out like six months ago and I don't know, but it just, Yeah, I honestly don't, to be honest, I don't have the answer.
John Dehlin [01:01:30] But, but the idea that attraction is a choice is something that sometimes religious people think. And there's no way I could ever choose to be attracted to a man. I just couldn't do it. I don't choose. I don't, I didn't choose when I was a 13 year old, 14 year old kid wanting to make out with the first girl I could. I didn't choose it. It just happened, you know, and, and it was, there was no question. And I, I guess I would just say to a straight Mormon, did you choose your attraction? And if you didn't, maybe, maybe believe others when they say they didn't. Do you feel like you chose yours?
Emma [01:02:06] No. And I guess you want it to happen. No. I actually cried a little bit at first. I mean, of course, like, you know, it's all very complicated emotion, but I did want to be with her. But it did scare me at first. And I felt like, you know, at first when I was still trying to reconcile my faith and we started dating, I knew that I, I couldn't not date girls, whether or not men were in the picture. But I also couldn't like, I couldn't go back to the church either. It was like, if I stay in the church, I will be single forever. Was the feeling of I can't be in a Mormon marriage. Whether it was with a man. Well, I guess it would never be with a woman. But like I couldn't do the church marriage context, if that makes any sense.
John Dehlin [01:03:00] And there are people that try and choose that life of celibacy in Mormonism. But I Guess that wasn't an option to you because by then you had lost your faith. Is that right? Yeah. When you think about trying to live a life of celibacy for the church, what. What comes up for you?
Emma [01:03:21] Kind of frustration of like, if this is what's expected of me, why don't the church leaders live a life of celibacy until they figure it out? Is almost what I feel. And you know, I've heard them say, like, oh, well, we do expect celibacy of everyone who doesn't.
John Dehlin [01:03:40] Straight people too.
Emma [01:03:41] Yeah, straight people too, who are not married. We expect celibacy, but it just feels more hopeless when you don't even know if it's an option for you to find. You know, I said, I'm still figuring out my sexuality. I don't even know if I'm attracted to men. But that not knowing feels hopeless. And like, either I just white knuckle it through it or, you know, trigger warning. I did have some suicidal ideation of like, I can't be in the church, but it feels too scary to leave. And I just wanted to disappear because there didn't seem. It didn't feel like there were any options for me.
John Dehlin [01:04:17] So in Mormon apologists try and say that LGBT Mormon suicidality isn't a thing, or it's the altitude, you know, or they try and come up, or it's. Or it's people like us talking about it creates the problem. If you want look into the camera and respond to that apologetic argument.
Emma [01:04:40] Yeah. I mean, to the point of people talking about it, creating it. I didn't know that it was a thing until after I experienced it. I looked it up to figure out what was going on with me. So that is not true. And the moment that I came to terms with my sexuality, it left.
John Dehlin [01:05:02] What left?
Emma [01:05:03] The suicidal ideation. As soon as I accepted myself for who I was, I did not feel the need to kill myself anymore. Whereas when I was trying to be gay and trying to reconcile my faith, it felt hopeless. Like I could not. Not even that I didn't want to do it, but I could not do it. So you can try and make an apology for that, but awful people. Sorry, almost use some expletives, but we rated this on pg, so.
John Dehlin [01:05:40] But it makes you want to swear and you're. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Emma [01:05:44] I mean, I. I know I'm not the only one. It's just suicide is not something that you should try and come up with apologies for, whether it's the system's fault or something else's. Fault. You just. You don't come up with apologies for
John Dehlin [01:06:01] that or justifications or excuses or denial.
Jenn Kamp [01:06:06] Yeah.
Emma [01:06:07] Because people's lives are at stake. Literally.
John Dehlin [01:06:09] Yeah. Yeah. So how many months ago did you come out to your parents and all this. This is not ancient history. This is pretty recent.
Emma [01:06:21] About six or seven. Six to seven months.
John Dehlin [01:06:24] So, like, you sacrificed a lot. You gave up your byu, you know, studies, you've lost the support of your parents and many family members. You've transferred to uvu, you've left the church. Like, some would say, was it even. Was it worth it? Like, you sacrificed way too much. Like, yeah, you were sad and maybe even question whether you wanted to live. But how in the world could all that sacrifice be worth just love?
Emma [01:06:57] I know that this probably sounds kind of cliche, but I feel like for the first time, I know what true unconditional love feels like. Because my entire life, I felt conditional love. And it manifested itself after I came out where my family pretty much disowned me. Some of them outright disowned me, and others did disown me subtly. And so it's like, yeah, that's what conditional love feels like. But now I know what unconditional love feels like. And there have been a lot of hard things, but I feel like I actually know myself now. Like, before, I had such a pseudo personality of, like, yep, I am a good Mormon girl. I like to cook. I'm a homemaker. And I always felt like I didn't really have a personality. Like, I just kind of shifted. But ever since coming out, like, I feel like I know myself and, like, what I like, and the moments of happiness are so much greater than they used to be. And I feel like I actually have. I take accountability for my choices. Before, I would just be like, oh, the spirit told me to do this, so I have to do it, or, like, I don't know, I just wouldn't take accountability. I would kind of blame it all on God. But now it's like, okay, I am in charge of my life, and I am not going to blame it on God or anybody else anymore. I am in control, and I choose what I do and what I don't do. Like, actual freedom, as opposed to the agency that we were taught about but wasn't really actually agency. And to me, that's worth. I would do it all again.
Advice for LGBTQ Mormons Feeling Stuck
John Dehlin [01:08:35] So if there are any BYU students or Mormon youth out there that are feeling stuck between their sexual or gender identity and their faith, and they're terrified about all the things that they might lose or give up or the negative consequences of living an authentic life. And they're afraid that it'll. It'll be too hard or too disastrous if they follow authenticity and sacrifice, potentially family or faith or whatever. We don't like to give advice on Mormon Stories podcast, but from your perspective, what would you say? How would you summarize your experience overall to someone listening?
Emma [01:09:20] Yeah, I was afraid to leave BYU because that was the only thing I had ever known. But I transferred to uvu, and I love it. Like, I feel like the people there actually care about the students. You know, this is just from my perspective, but at byu, I felt like everything was a competition and they were trying to weed you out, and it felt very cutthroat. But at uvu, I feel like people care. Care. The community alone at UVU is worth it. And I don't feel like I have to hide, which was so hard at byu. Living in BYU housing with roommates, just feeling like you can't share yourself and you have to, like, sneak around really greats on you. That is worth it. And the potential of, like, losing family support is real. But there are resources. The OUT Foundation, I mentioned that they have a transfer guide. If you're a BYU student and you are potentially thinking about leaving, they have a whole guide that you can follow. They also grant. They have grants that you can apply for if you need assistance for housing. There are options. Like, it feels hopeless sometimes, but there are options. And once you remove yourself from that situation, you will feel safer. I feel safer. It's been harder. You know, I had to be more independent, but I feel more. Way more safe than I did when I was at byu. I actually had some night terrors during the Jeffrey R. Holland moment where he came out and talked about musket fire. I woke up screaming in the middle of the night because I thought someone was out to get me. Like, that's just what that does to you. And as soon as you leave byu, those things are over.
John Dehlin [01:11:14] So you. When Holland gave that talk, you felt what?
Emma [01:11:18] I mean, at first, I was just really disappointed. I didn't realize the fear I felt until I woke up screaming from a nightmare. Like, actually fell out of bed and, like, stuff went everywhere because I was terrified that people were out to get me. And, like, I would be physically harmed by certain people in the community. And I didn't realize that I was feeling that until that moment.
John Dehlin [01:11:45] I'm so sorry. Sometimes they just don't realize the implications of what they say.
Emma [01:11:50] No, because I don't think that's what he intended, but that's what happened.
John Dehlin [01:11:54] Okay. Okay. So. So I love the message of hope that you're giving people that even in. And I think you would probably agree your situation's probably more on the worst case scenario because there are a lot of Mormon families that not only aren't rejecting of their LGBT youth, but there are even some that are affirming and or leave the church with their LGBTQ kids. So, I mean, I guess what you're saying is you were among the worst case scenarios for many kids, Mormon kids, and you're still saying that you're glad you did it, happier and healthier overall?
Emma [01:12:42] Yeah, I mean, if I could go back, I would try to come out sooner, but, yeah, happier, healthier. A lot of my friends have just, like, noticed, like, wow, like, the past few months, you've seen so much happier and, like, better than you did before. And like, a lot of them don't know because I haven't told them what's going on. And they're just like, wow, like, you just seem to be doing so much better and I am. I feel it.
John Dehlin [01:13:10] That's so great. Let's end with kind of coming back to the prepper thing. You. You've already kind of stated in the first two episodes a lot of the harm and the damage that you and your family experienced as a result of kind of the Mormon prepper mentality. But as you're now, as someone's looking at you, listening to you, and they're. They're trying to listen with an open mind and an open heart. They're in this mindset or lifestyle, or they're even flirting with it or contemplating it or they're recovering from it. If you wanted to kind of summarize your thoughts and feelings and concerns with kind of that. That prepper mentality, how would you kind of conclude today's episode addressing the prepper question specifically?
Reflections on Leaving Prepper Mormon Beliefs
Emma [01:14:09] Yeah, first thing I would say is the feeling that we are the last and chosen generation and the world is ending soon and the second coming is happening, doesn't go away. And so no matter what preparations you make now, you know you're going to keep feeling that way and it's going to continue. My grandparents thought it, my parents thought it, my siblings think it, their kids will probably think it, and it will just keep happening. And from what I've seen, all of the results that come from prepping are just wasted efforts. There have been millions of dollars put into it from my personal family.
John Dehlin [01:14:54] Millions.
Emma [01:14:56] Yeah. At least 1 million that has gone into the building alone. But before that, you know, the cost of building a barn and purchasing all the things required to butcher animals. Millions of dollars have gone into it, and most of it has gone to waste. And for the people who still believe in, you know, Mormon culture and the second coming, I think there are a lot of more moderate ways that you can prep that will not harm you or your family and cause this emotional and financial stress. Like, if you're going to choose to be prepared, choose more moderate ways. We all know that extremes are bad, and I would hope that the church would be more discouraging of this. I remember a talk by Quentin Cook where he came out and said, you know, extreme ways are not good.
John Dehlin [01:15:46] We should include a link to that in the show. Notes Quentin Cook's talk about discouraging extreme preparism, basically.
Emma [01:15:53] But I remember my parents hearing that in the midst of extreme preppering. And I. What is that even word prepping? Prepping. Prepping. And I remember them saying, this isn't about us. And so what does that mean? I just remember them saying, like, oh, they must be talking about, like, other people.
John Dehlin [01:16:11] This isn't about us. This isn't about us other people.
Emma [01:16:14] This is for the other.
John Dehlin [01:16:15] This is revelation for everybody else. We live by a different set of heavenly rules. Ooh. And so I just almost doesn't matter what the brethren say. They won't be listened to.
Emma [01:16:29] Correct. But I think it's the culture that continues, you know, there hasn't seemed to be very much like, you know, yes, John Pontius was excommunicated. Same with Julie Rowe. But I recently learned that, as I've been researching more about the church, because
John Dehlin [01:16:46] the bubble that the church puts its members in insulates them from information about these excommunications. And so whatever the brethren are saying, whatever they're doing, it's not reaching the people that need it.
Emma [01:17:01] Now, their current efforts to shut down these kind of things are not working.
John Dehlin [01:17:07] And they've insulated the people too well. They built the bubble too strong, so they can't even communicate with their own people effectively.
Jenn Kamp [01:17:17] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:17:18] Wow.
Emma [01:17:18] And it's frankly out of control.
John Dehlin [01:17:25] What do you think, Jen?
Jenn Kamp [01:17:27] Yep. I think. Don't feel bad. I lived in that bubble for, like, 43 years before I knew there was something outside of it because I didn't allow myself to even peak because I was so listening to what they told me to do. But it's a whole nother level of world and happiness and love outside of that little bubble. So I Hope more people will look into that.
John Dehlin [01:17:58] Well, this will be the start. There's going to be people flirting with prep. Preparism or who are engaged in prepperism that are going to watch this episode because of your courage, because of your willingness to speak out, that are maybe going to choose a new life path. Or there'll be people that come out of it that feel very validated by the fact that they could hear your story and. And feel like they weren't alone and maybe they weren't so crazy. They were victims of a system just like so many other people. So thank you.
Emma [01:18:34] Yeah, thank you. I hope so. I remember feeling alone and like we were the only people doing this, but it's not. And I think that realization will help a lot of people step away from it.
Final Thoughts and Closing the Interview
John Dehlin [01:18:47] Any final words you want to say before we end?
Emma [01:18:50] Just thank you. Thank you for letting me come on and for your patience to listen to this wild story.
John Dehlin [01:18:57] Yeah. You're feeling optimistic about the future, Feeling hopeful?
Emma [01:19:01] Yeah. No. So many great things are happening in life right now. I think it's really headed in a great direction, and you don't need a mystical being in the sky to make you feel safe about your life and the things you're doing.
John Dehlin [01:19:15] So for you, God and Jesus haven't survived your faith crisis.
Emma [01:19:19] I'm trying to figure it out, but there's just so many things that don't connect and don't make sense. That. That at the moment, no.
John Dehlin [01:19:31] So no churches right now for you?
Emma [01:19:34] No. I went to, like, five different churches in the middle of my faith transition to try and find a different one. And they all seemed along the same lines, just slightly less extreme.
John Dehlin [01:19:46] And this is a softball. But instead of worrying about the future, worrying about Jesus coming back or the millennium, where do you find meaning and purpose in life now?
Emma [01:19:58] I mean, I still think about the future, but in different ways. Like, for the first time in my life, I am seriously pursuing an education. Whereas before it seemed meaningless. But now, like, we all know that education is so important. But for me, as in a patriarchal family, as a female and preppers, education was meaningless. And now I'm actually pursuing that. And I'm excited about potential careers,
Jenn Kamp [01:20:24] a
Emma [01:20:24] life that I can create for myself that before I thought was never. Like, I didn't really think I was going to grow to be old. And now I can think about the future and be excited about it.
John Dehlin [01:20:36] Do you know what you might want to study or do?
Emma [01:20:38] English. I want to do grant writing. And I mean be an author. But everyone Hopes to be an author.
John Dehlin [01:20:44] Yeah. Do you have a dream? Do you want to write a memoir?
Emma [01:20:47] I do want to write a memoir
John Dehlin [01:20:49] about being the child of a Mormon prepper family.
Emma [01:20:52] I also thought about writing a memoir about being a white American in the Philippines and like, trying to take church out of it, but just focus on the culture and the people.
John Dehlin [01:21:02] Take church out of it. That's the. One of the most interesting parts.
Emma [01:21:05] I know. Maybe that'll be a memoir.
Jenn Kamp [01:21:07] Number two.
Emma [01:21:11] I'm excited for the future. Like legitimately excited.
John Dehlin [01:21:13] Oh, good.
Emma [01:21:14] Instead of scared.
John Dehlin [01:21:15] And maybe someday we'll meet your girlfriend.
Emma [01:21:17] Yeah, maybe she'll come on here when she's ready.
John Dehlin [01:21:22] Wow, Emma. And I've assumed you were named after Emma Smith, Joseph's first wife.
Emma [01:21:26] 100%. I was born in March, which is the month the Relief Society was founded, so.
John Dehlin [01:21:33] So, yeah. Do you wish you had a different name or are you at peace with your name?
Emma [01:21:37] I'm at peace with my name. It's okay. Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:21:42] Well, I'm a. Thank you so much for your courage. And I know this may come at a family cost. It may help some family relationships in the medium, the long run too, but at least in the short term, I know this is a real act of courage and there's so many people afraid to speak up. So thank you so much for your courage and your honesty and your integrity.
Emma [01:22:03] And thank you to you. You've been being courageous for however long you've been doing this.
John Dehlin [01:22:08] So only. Only 17, 18 years. That's all.
Emma [01:22:12] Yeah, almost my whole life.
John Dehlin [01:22:15] It's an honor. Okay. And Jen, thanks so much for filling in for Kara and being so lovely and, and all you're doing for the Open Stories Foundation.
Jenn Kamp [01:22:23] Thank you. I'm excited to be here. You're so welcome. And thank you, Emma, for coming and being so vulnerable in telling your story. And I just know it's going to touch so many people and hopefully open their eyes and their hearts and you're very brave. Thank you.
Support Mormon Stories and Upcoming Events
John Dehlin [01:22:45] All right. All right. Well, thanks everyone for tuning in. If you value these types of programs. Number one, please share this episode with anyone you think who will listen, who is open minded or open hearted or you think could benefit. Please share if you value Mormon Stories, podcast or this type of programming and you would like to join the. The hosts of. Of donors. We want your support. We need your support. So we pay for Kara, we pay for Jen, we pay for Jennifer, Gerardo, Brooklyn, me, all these facilities. We need your support. And as long as you will continue to support us financially, we'll keep creating stories and sharing stories that change hearts and minds and that provide informed consent to Mormons and that promote healing, growth and community for people questioning and or leaving Mormonism. So that's what the Open Stories foundation is about. That's a Mormon Stories is about. You can go to mormonstories.org click on the donate button. Become a monthly donor. 10 bucks a month, 50 bucks a month, a hundred bucks a month, whatever you can afford. It's tax deductible in the U.S. we're transparent in our finances. And 100% of the money you donate is going to go towards the cause and the mission of the Open Stories Foundation. So it's, it's fun to be a donor. It's exciting to have meaning and purpose and to be part of the solution. So if you want to be part of the solution, please join us. And thanks to everyone who does support us already. We couldn't do this without you. So email us@mormonstoriesmail.com if you have feedback or questions. Comment on YouTube or on the blog or on Facebook, wherever you consume. If you've got ideas for future episodes, we'd love to hear them@mormonstoriesmail.com and of course, follow us and subscribe to us on Facebook, on YouTube, on TikTok, on Instagram, on Twitter. And we have a new Discord Channel. You can become a member of our Discord community and talk and meet other Mormon Stories listeners and just make friends and play games and have fun. So shout out to Justin and the and the Discord team as well for the the amazing Discord Channel. All right, that's it. Any anything final, Emma?
Emma [01:24:57] No, that was awesome. Thank you so much.
John Dehlin [01:24:58] Thanks again. Jen, any final things?
Jenn Kamp [01:25:00] No, thank you.
John Dehlin [01:25:02] Check out MormonStories.org, the events tab on Mormistories.org for amazing events. Faith crisis events, workshops, retreats, women's events. Jen will be leading that effort going forward. And check, check out our events.
Jenn Kamp [01:25:16] I'm excited.
John Dehlin [01:25:17] All right, thanks, everyone. Take care. We'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care.
Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.
Join John and Jenn as they discuss with Emma what it was like coming out as queer while attending BYU, losing her faith in the Mormon Church, and facing rejection from some of her orthodox family members.
Since the founding of Mormonism, there has been a core belief in the imminent Second Coming of Jesus Christ (thus the “Latter-day” portion of the Church’s official name). But over the past few decades, there has been an increasing trend towards “end times preparedness.” Ultra-orthodox Mormons sell their assets, move to rural areas, attend “Prepper” conferences (like “Preparing a People”), build fortresses, deny healthcare and education to their children, and stockpile food/weapons/ammunition, etc.
This movement is benign for a few but, for many, it leads to extreme behavior, divided families, financial ruin, a host of charlatan “prophets” who prey on this mentality (e.g., Julie Rowe), and, in some cases, murder (e.g., Chad Daybell and Lori Vallow story).
See Part 1 and Part 2 of this series with Emma, who was raised in the Mormon “Prepper” movement.
Show Notes:
- “LGBTQ students at BYU light up the ‘Y’ in rainbow colors,” by Courtney Tanner, Salt Lake Tribune, March 5, 2021
- “A Bishop’s Family Questions Mormonism,” Kelly and Kayla Mikesell on Mormon Stories
- Cultish podcast
- “Coming Out as a Non-Believer to Family Members,” Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis
- Encircle: Utah Resources for LGBTQ+ Youth
- “Elder Jeffrey R. Holland Urges BYU to Embraces Its Uniqueness, Stay True to the Savior,” the August 2021 speech at BYU, in which Holland urges “musket fire” in defense of the school’s current standards under pressure for equal rights for LGBTQ+ students and staff
- The Out Foundation
- “Valiant in the Testimony of Jesus,” Quentin L. Cook, General Conference October 2016, in which he warns against the “stumbling block” of “expensive preparation for end-of-days scenarios”
- Upcoming Events with the Open Stories Foundation
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One Response
Thanks Emma for the vulnerable interview. So sad to see family member believe are they are treating you the way that Jesus would want them to. Dogma can be brutal, especially outdated dogma.