Introduction and Episode Overview

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 385

Fiona Givens [00:00:00] 1, 2, 3.

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John Dehlin [00:00:28] hello and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I am your host, John Dehlin, and today I'm very excited to have with me Fiona Givens and Terrell Givens. You all will know Terrell from a multi part interview that I did a year or two ago.

John Dehlin [00:00:49] I'm a little bit fuzzy on the exact date of that, but it was a while ago. It's been one of the definitely one of the most popular and probably important interviews that we've done on Mormon Stories. Terrell, of course, is a noted scholar and a really shining light for many sort of 21st century thinking and feeling Mormons. So, Tara, welcome back to Mormon Stories.

Terryl Givens [00:01:19] Thank you. Good to be here again, John.

John Dehlin [00:01:22] And with Terrell is his wife, Fiona Givens. I don't know a lot about Fiona other than that I've talked to a lot of people who know her and say she's not to put any pressure on you, but they say she's delightful and charming and very thoughtful and witty and wise. And Fiona, together with Terrell have co authored a new book called the God who How Mormonism Makes Sense of Life. And so we're going to be featuring Fiona first and then the book second for this podcast. So, Fiona Givens, welcome to Mormon Stories.

Fiona Givens [00:02:01] I'm delighted to be here. John. Thank you so much for inviting me.

John Dehlin [00:02:05] Oh, my pleasure. So I should sort of start with a shout out to the Thoughtful Faith podcast. I listened to that this morning. They do a great job. And Fiona and Terrell were interviewed there and some really good insight about the book, about faith issues and doubt issues and historical issues and spiritual issues and theological issues. I want to highly recommend that interview and I want to sort of, I mean, I'm intending this interview to be a bit of a supplement to that one. So make sure and check that one out@a thoughtfulfaith.org but we're going to begin this first part of the interview introducing you, Fiona, to our audience.

Fiona Givens [00:02:54] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:02:55] Yeah. And I should say at the outset that I had the ability to listen to a lot of this book on tape. And I have to say how delightful it was to hear you as the narrator of the book. And my favorite part, as I told you guys in email was when you actually read from the book, was it the Adventures of Huckleberry Finn?

Fiona Givens [00:03:21] Yes, it was. Yes, it was.

John Dehlin [00:03:25] Oh, go ahead.

Fiona Givens [00:03:26] No, it was really funny because obviously one can't read Huckleberry Finn in an English accent. It just doesn't work. I mean, one can do Dostoevsky, one can do numerous other, but not Huckleber. And I practiced for hours, and I. I thought I'd done quite a good job. And Terrell walked in the door and I said, darling, I think I've got it. Here it is. And he burst out laughing because it was so exaggerated. So then I had to go back and tone it down. And tone it down. So what you had was the toned down version. Did it sound anywhere close?

John Dehlin [00:04:05] Yeah, no, it was, it was. I thought it was great how you could. I didn't get a. A strong taste of a British accent at all.

Fiona Givens [00:04:12] Oh, that's brilliant.

John Dehlin [00:04:13] Yeah, yeah. I thought that in and of itself was a remarkable achievement. Yeah. But then you, you had a nice southern twang. And I, you know, I'm from Texas. I grew up in Texas, so I, I'd say I'd give it an A plus, personally.

Fiona Givens [00:04:25] Oh, you're lovely. Well, thank you very much. I think we're fortunate and living in a beautiful part of Virginia. And of course, we go, We. We attend services with lots of people who have that delightful accent. So they were in the back of my mind as I was practicing.

John Dehlin [00:04:42] It was great. It was great. I also noticed when you threw in a reference to your learning Mandarin Chinese as a person of a certain age. I'll say. Do you remember that part?

Fiona Givens [00:04:54] Yeah, yes. No, no, I remember that part. In fact, quite honestly, John, I don't think I could handle Mandarin at any age. Maybe two or three. But yes, after six, I don't think that would be for me at all.

John Dehlin [00:05:09] Well, that was great. Okay, well, Fiona, I'd like to begin this first, you know, segment. Just learning a bit about your life and I can tell that you're not from Virginia.

Fiona's Childhood in East Africa and the Seychelles

Fiona Givens [00:05:23] No, well done. No, I'm not.

John Dehlin [00:05:26] So tell us. Yeah, just tell us a bit about your. Where you're from and a little bit about your growing up, I guess.

Fiona Givens [00:05:34] Yeah, absolutely. It's a little convoluted. I was born in Nairobi in Kenya, and my two brothers were born in Dar es Salaam in Tanzania. My father worked for the British government. And so I spent the first 12 years, 12, 13 years of my life growing up in East Africa, which was the most extraordinary experience and part of me will always be East African.

John Dehlin [00:06:00] So you were born in Africa?

Fiona Givens [00:06:02] Yes, I was in an African hospital. Yep. I was. I was born in an African hospital in Nairobi.

John Dehlin [00:06:08] What were African hospitals like?

Fiona Givens [00:06:10] I don't remember.

John Dehlin [00:06:12] No, but I mean, was it like. Was it horrible circumstances or was it sort of nice colonial, kind of.

Fiona Givens [00:06:19] There you go. There you go. Yes, it was a beautiful, clean hospital. I remember actually having my tonsils removed and was sent to the Children's Hospital for that. And it was lovely. I mean, the most extraordinary was the little boy. And the ward next to me had had his eye torn out by a hyena. That's why he was there. So it was those sort of accidents that happened in Africa? Yeah, really, really wild animal accidents. So, yeah, that was quite extraordinary. So that. That was my Kenya background. And then my father moved us to England for a year, and then he moved to the Seychelles Islands and where we lived for the next four years of our lives.

Fiona Givens [00:07:06] And that was just indescribably beautiful. My two brothers and I were sent to boarding school in England. And that's the accent you're hearing. Boarding schools are rather like sausage factories. It doesn't matter where you're from in the world. You get put into one of these and you come out like this. So.

John Dehlin [00:07:25] So. So what does your dad do for the government?

Fiona Givens [00:07:30] He was the head financier in East Africa for East African railroads and harbors. And then when he was in the Seychelles, he supervised the financing of ensuring that the harbor worked well and was receptive to all sorts of mostly naval vessels, to be quite honest. And then later on cruise ships of various types of.

John Dehlin [00:07:56] Wow.

Fiona Givens [00:07:56] So it was money and numbers was his game.

John Dehlin [00:08:00] Businessman.

Fiona Givens [00:08:01] I'm no good with. No good with numbers at all. Okay, sorry.

John Dehlin [00:08:07] At what age did you. At what age did you leave Africa?

Fiona Givens [00:08:13] Well, we left East Africa when I was 13, spent a year in England, and then my high school years were spent in the Seychelles. My brothers were boarding schools in England. And I. I was raised Catholic. My mother was Cathol from Southern Ireland, from Tipperary. My father was born and raised in Oxford. But they married at a time when the Catholic Church insisted on the children being raised in the Catholic faith tradition. So I went to Catholic girls schools all my life. And absolutely my Catholic faith tradition, which is vibrant and beautiful and rich, has had a very powerful impact on my spiritual journey.

John Dehlin [00:08:52] So. So I don't know. I've been to England a few times, but, you know, obviously the Anglican Church kind of reigned supreme, I'm assuming. And so did that make you a religious minority in the United Kingdom?

Fiona Givens [00:09:08] Well, it was difficult to know, really, because I was in a boarding school and we were in the country. There were really only hundred of us there. Christian Amanpour actually was in my year. I was her head girl. Just quite extraordinary. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:27] What does that mean, to be a head girl?

Fiona Givens [00:09:30] Oh, head girl. Have you read the Harry Potter books?

John Dehlin [00:09:32] Yes.

Fiona Givens [00:09:33] Percy Weasley and then think his female counterpart. And that was.

Terryl Givens [00:09:38] I.

John Dehlin [00:09:39] Okay, got it, got it, got it. Okay.

Fiona Givens [00:09:42] All right, so it's a big deal. I went to New Hall School, The. It was the school of the nuns of the Holy Sepulchre. And they had fled lorraine about over 400 years ago, I think, seeking sanctuary in England. So. Which is odd, as you said, it's primarily Anglican. So I think we were a minority, although we never felt as though we were a minority because it was a Catholic boarding school. Yeah, we were pretty secluded. We lived in the heart of the English countryside, not far from Chelmsford, about an hour north of London. And so, no, really felt that.

John Dehlin [00:10:22] Okay, okay. Now, where are the Seychelles for those of us?

Fiona Givens [00:10:26] Oh, yes, The Seychelles are islands in the Indian Ocean. They're about a thousand miles south of India and a thousand miles east of Kenya, so right in the heart of the Indian Ocean. They're volcanic, which. No, I'm sorry, they're granite, which is unusual. Most islands are volcanic, but they're extraordinarily beautiful. There's flora and fauna found on those islands that are found nowhere, nowhere else in the world. So they're quite extraordinary in that regard and just stunningly beautiful.

John Dehlin [00:10:58] What did. Growing up in these exotic foreign countries, what do you feel like that taught you as a kid? What did you take from that?

Fiona Givens [00:11:08] Well, it spoiled me horribly like that forever and ever. I've never quite recovered from the shock of it not being like that.

John Dehlin [00:11:19] Meaning what? Like that? Meaning just beautiful.

Fiona Givens [00:11:22] Yeah, it was just so stunningly beautiful. I mean, we'd get up on Sunday mornings and go, you know, go out into the game reserves and we'd be driving by prides of lion and elephants. And there was so plenteous in those days. There was not the awful poaching that has been going on in the intervening years. So I suppose I saw Africa and the Seychelles at their very, very best. And so I was very spoiled. But it also gave me, I think, a deep appreciation for God's magnanimity. I mean, where are the Seychelles? Why should he take so much time and care in decking them out in such beauty when they weren't found, discovered forever. And very few people can afford to actually deck that. I think it really developed in me a huge sense of gratitude for the beauty of our planet.

John Dehlin [00:12:28] Do you know if there were natives in the Seychelles when they were discovered by Western folk, or did it have a native population?

Fiona Givens [00:12:39] That's a very good question. It's a very mixed population. I'm not sure if there was an original population. The French discovered them originally and they brought with them slaves. And so there were. There was a lot of intermarriage between them. And so there's this. And they speak French is the official language of the Seychelles, but they speak a patois creole French, which is a mixture of African languages and French. So, yeah, it's a very diverse community in that regard.

John Dehlin [00:13:13] Right. So how, how important was. Was religion like how. I've never been to a Catholic boarding school, so what was that? Was religion shoved down your throat? Was it modeled in a healthy way? You know, the, the images of nuns with rulers, you know, wrapping your fingers. Tell us how your upbringing, the boarding schools and religiosity sort of all melded together for you?

Religion as a Natural Part of Family Life

Fiona Givens [00:13:43] Well, I think you're quite right by using the word melded. It was part of our life as far as being shoved down our throats, I don't think so. There were very office. There was various offices held throughout the day, but we were a school, so we weren't required to attend all the offices as the nuns were. In fact, I think their order was very strict.

Fiona Givens [00:14:04] We had the opportunity to go to mass every morning if we chose to do so before breakfast. I became very religious inclined, I would say, probably talking to my classmates. They would probably have put me in the zealot category.

Fiona Givens [00:14:20] I tend to do everything overboard and was quite convinced at one point that I would become a nun. I would have made a very bad nun, actually. But I mean, I loved it. And it just. It was just woven seamlessly in my day to day life. It was the air I breathed, it was the way the air we all breathed. And, and I really didn't feel that there was any aversion to it from anyone, at least, I don't recall.

Fiona Givens [00:14:51] But. But it really sort of cemented my belief in the fact that there was a God. There was a conversation I had with Sister Mary Stephanie, my house master, at once, which quite terrified me. I'd asked her about heaven and she said that heaven was a state of being, that one just floated forever in sort of this sublime presence which absolutely terrified me. The idea of just Existing but not doing anything had really a profound effect on my mind. And so I really embrace this idea of heaven that Terrell and I have articulated in the book, of heaven being a continuation of relationships, because those were always to me, the ties to my family, the relationship with my family and friends.

Fiona Givens [00:15:47] The idea of just existing for the sake of existing was really quite a harrowing thought. So I think that was probably quite pivotal, actually, in my way, in the way my mind started to think. It revolted at this idea of mere existence for existence's sake.

John Dehlin [00:16:04] So you were zealously Catholic.

Fiona Givens [00:16:07] I became. I became zealous. I didn't start out that way. I became zealous for a while. And then when I was in my final year of school and Head Girl, then I went the other way. I sort of. I became anti established.

John Dehlin [00:16:26] So, yeah, okay, so the, the equivalent of your senior year of high school, is that right?

Fiona Givens [00:16:32] Right.

John Dehlin [00:16:32] You started. You started sort of rebelling against the church?

Fiona Givens [00:16:37] Not against the church, it was against the structure, the power structure within our tiny little community. So the headmistress, for example, Sister Mary Frances, she didn't like me and she made it quite clear that had it not been for the popular vote, she certainly wouldn't have voted for me. So that sort of set us both on edge. And so there was a power struggle, I think, between herself and myself and the rest of the school, because I knew I had the rest of the school behind me. It's all very heady stuff. We didn't do anything too terribly exciting. It was just nice to know that I had the power and she didn't.

John Dehlin [00:17:15] Wow. Okay, and. And so you were a little bit anti establishment. And, and okay, so, and, but that didn't impact your, your faith at the time. You were still highly observant religiously, is that right?

Fiona Givens [00:17:31] Well, yeah, it's difficult to define highly observant religiously.

John Dehlin [00:17:37] Everybody was doing the same thing.

Fiona Givens [00:17:39] Yeah, everybody was doing the same thing. It wasn't really actually until after I left school that religion became urgent in my life. I had been so busy being head Girl that I neglected my studies. I did not do particularly well in my A level exams, which ruled out Oxford and Cambridge right there and then. And I was at quite a. Quite at a loss as to what I should do next. And so I found myself during that summer praying with an urgency and an intensity I had never prayed with before.

Fiona Givens [00:18:14] And it's quite extraordinary. I ended up taking a gap year, which is not unusual. Most of us took gap years. We take a year off between high school and university. It's actually a very sensible thing. I decided to go to Germany because I was going to read German at the University of Wales. But I wanted my German to be as fluent as possible because I knew that the course would be an arduous one. And it so ended up that I ended up with living in a family where one of the occupants of the home was LDS and we talked about God because God had become very, very important in my life.

Fiona Givens [00:18:53] I really needed some guidance. I really needed to know what I should do with my life. It sort of stretched before me like a desert and it was. It quite terrifying. And so she was not averse to talking about God and I was thrilled. And we had lovely conversations about God and I like, say about Him. I actually agreed with many of the things she said. So she said, come to me with me to my church one Sunday. And I said, sure, fine. I'd never heard of Mormons in my life before, but I thought, you know, why not? I wasn't looking for another religion. I mean, we are the oldest, after all.

Fiona Givens [00:19:31] So I felt pretty grounded. But it was quite extraordinary. It was in East Garden and it was a little room on a second floor. And I'd always. I'd always searched for something spiritual. I never felt it. In my faith tradition, we'd become quite ecumenical and we'd have these little meetings and everybody would sort of bear their testimonies or. And I never felt anything. In fact, you know, sometimes I cheat and stand up and say, oh, I feel blah. And I felt nothing. And I felt like such a liar and a deceiver.

Fiona Givens [00:20:06] But when I walked into that room in Wiesbaden, I was struck by something I had never felt in my life before, but something for which I had yearned. There was a love and a warmth and a friendship. I felt safe.

Spiritual Awakenings and Encounters with Faith

Fiona Givens [00:20:26] It comprised mostly soldiers, soldiers, families and elderly German. Germans. It was extraordinary. And then I met this young girl, Sister Cazeli, and she started talking to me about the church in German. Very, very bad German. I asked her actually if she could start speaking in English because I couldn't understand it. But what was more striking were her eyes.

Fiona Givens [00:20:55] Her eyes flashed with this light, this luminosity. Just bowled me over. It was like, what is this? And I like to think I can tell the difference between the light of fanaticism and the light of faith. This light was warm and engaging and beautiful.

Fiona Givens [00:21:21] So then my faith journey started from there and the experience was Pentecostal. It took me quite by surprise. I'd Never anticipated anything like this happening to me in my life. And it was something I could not have manipulated or contrived myself. It was coming from outside of me, recognized it was quite extraordinary.

John Dehlin [00:21:43] So, Fiona, it sounds like these experiences, these kind of spiritual experiences were things that you had never really experienced before.

Fiona Givens [00:21:50] Absolutely. I'd never experienced. Experienced these. These feelings before. I remember the missionaries giving me a tape. It was a. President Kimball was the president of the church at the time, and they'd asked me to listen to it. I was very careful during my discussions. I would not allow them to play me anything that had music attached to it because I knew how manipulative music could be.

John Dehlin [00:22:17] Wow.

Fiona Givens [00:22:17] So if it had music in it, they were not allowed to share it with me. They were not allowed to play it or show it to me.

John Dehlin [00:22:23] That's called. That's called a high maintenance investigator.

Fiona Givens [00:22:26] Oh, yeah, I was high maintenance, John. Yes, I really was. I think I was every mission presence nightmare, quite honestly. I was 19 and flirtatious. Yes. These young men stepped into the very jaws themselves and, yeah, extraordinary. But they were starving. This is Germany after all.

Fiona Givens [00:22:47] But I remember they left a tape with me of President Kimball. I have no idea what he was talking about. I remember having to adjust myself to his voice. You know, I had to talk my kid. Obviously there's something wrong with his voice. It sounds as though he's had throat surgery. And then, whoosh. This incredible feeling. It came from above me and through my head, through my entire body. It coursed through me that I was listening to a prophet of God.

Fiona Givens [00:23:18] And that was just absolutely extraordinary. You can. You can't manufacture things like this. And I'm very, very sensitive to manipulation. And so it was. It was experiences such as these that I'm. And I have to say, they don't happen every day. I really have never experienced again that experience that I had then. And I think it is right that I have not, because it would have been coercion. It was like, Fiona, this is a taste of the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is this beautiful. It is this real.

Fiona Givens [00:23:57] And then. So when I do have my crises of faith, I think that verb in the Book of Mormon to remember is probably the most important verb we have. Because I think some of us, many of us, don't receive Pentecostal experiences like I did.

Fiona Givens [00:24:16] I was fortunate. I think there have been many very difficult passages in my life and crises of faith in my own life. But I've been able to walk back to those and remember and also authenticate that they Were not manipulated, that they came from outside. And they have given me an anchor and a mooring.

John Dehlin [00:24:43] I have to admit that I had a very similar experience growing up, too. There's something about late adolescence that God, you know, if God's there, there's something about. And I'll say, you know, God, heavenly Father and mother, whatever. There's something about adolescence where that. That's often the time when we have something just so powerful that we never forget it.

Fiona Givens [00:25:11] Absolutely. You know, I wonder if that's not the reason why missionaries are sent out so terribly young, you know, towards end of their adolescence. Because even. Even with people who have left our faith tradition, those who have served missions remember fondly and with great love and joy their missionary experience. So now I think you're absolutely right. I think there's something that is authentic, authenticated. We're not yet become steel. We are still malleable and open. One of the most rich and rewarding experiences I've had in my church experience and my church callings was actually teaching gospel doctrine to young singles and just the wonderful, vibrant discussions that we were able to have because their minds were so open and their hearts were so open. I think you're absolutely right.

John Dehlin [00:26:10] And that's around the age when Joseph had his experience, isn't it?

Fiona Givens [00:26:15] Well, he was a lot younger, I think. I don't know. Adolescence, 14, 19. For me, that seems to be a big. Yeah. You know, when you're a teenager, that's a huge difference, isn't it? But when you're my age, it's not really that much. Well, I don't know. Actually, I. I think it is still good for me.

Leaving Catholicism and Discovering Mormonism

John Dehlin [00:26:31] Mine came at. Mine came more at like, 16. And I've heard the first vision be anywhere from 14 to 16.

Fiona Givens [00:26:38] Right, right. Yeah. No, so you're absolutely right. Yeah. Yeah. There is something about adolescence. I think that's when our brains and our hearts are actually really starting to. To pump and. And move. And, you know, as I said, my, my. My question to God was sincere and urgent, and I really didn't. Did want need guidance. And I felt very strongly that he would answer me. But it was many, many months going to that little Catholic church in our community and kneeling in there and praying. You know, God has such an interesting way of answering prayers. They're totally unexpected. But my people.

John Dehlin [00:27:20] Beautiful story. I'm glad you shared that. Yeah.

Fiona Givens [00:27:22] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:27:23] Yeah. Oh, keep going. I just wanted to comment that. I'm glad you shared it. What were you about to say?

Fiona Givens [00:27:29] Oh, no, it was just that my family were not as enamored as I was of the decision.

John Dehlin [00:27:35] Well, yeah, I mean, your dad's this. This sort of English businessman, and your family is well traveled and probably highly educated and probably wanted you to go to Oxford or Cambridge, right?

Fiona Givens [00:27:49] Oh, absolutely. No, they absolutely did. And, you know, changing one's religion is rather like changing one's nationality. One really doesn't do it unless it's absolutely essential. It's just so. It was. It was just so discombobulating for them. And unfortunately, it occurred at a time when a lot of young people in similar economic circumstances were, you know, joining the Moonies or joining terrorist gangs. And I just happened to fall right into that. That statistic.

John Dehlin [00:28:21] Oh, like the Patty Hearst kind of.

Fiona Givens [00:28:24] Yeah, the bar de minor. In fact, my father's question to me when I told him that I wish to join the Mormon Church was, fiona, have you joined the Bada Meinhof terrorist gang? And it's like, daddy, you don't know me well at all. I. I have no compunction to kill. It's so and so against everything I am. So boarding schools can be rather disastrous, I think, as far as developing those communication and knowledge skills of family members. But anyway, so it was quite devastating for me because it was so glorious and so beautiful. And obviously I'd noticed I had failed magnificently in communicating the beauty of the decision I was going that I was about to take.

John Dehlin [00:29:09] Well, how can you. How can you explain that internal experience you had? You can't.

Fiona Givens [00:29:13] No, you can't communicate it. Right? You are absolutely right. And I was so sure I would be able to communicate it and couldn't and how frustrating. Yeah, it was very painful more than anything else.

John Dehlin [00:29:26] Did you look up to your parents? Like, were you close?

Fiona Givens [00:29:28] I adored. I adored my family.

John Dehlin [00:29:30] That makes it harder.

Fiona Givens [00:29:32] It made it incredibly difficult. And had I been, you know, a really wretched child, you know, I think they could have seen perhaps some. Some advantage to be gained. But I wasn't. And so they were just totally at a loss as to why on earth I would do such a thing. Because it would damage the family. And I realized how much it would damage the family. I was doing something so horrendous. I don't think they could imagine anything worse that I could do, that I could do that I could inflict upon the family.

John Dehlin [00:30:03] Oh, man.

Fiona Givens [00:30:04] And it was. John. It was extraordinarily painful, I have to admit. I went home to England for a week to try and show them that I had not become a monster, that I was still the same person that I just. I discovered this beautiful thing that I wanted to share with them, and they were at a loss. It was winter, and the trees were stark against the winter sky, and I just saw crucifixes everywhere. I was. It was, you know, adolescent. So you have to have the melodrama. And I was queen of melodrama.

Fiona Givens [00:30:36] But, you know, I returned back to Germany and I. I couldn't. I couldn't do this to my family. And I recognized that. That if I did take such a step that they would no longer be able to understand me, that we'd be communicating on such different levels, that there would be no more communication between us. And that terrified me. And so for six months, I wandered in the wilderness. It really was a wilderness period.

Fiona Givens [00:31:04] And finally it was. I couldn't go back to my. To the Catholic Church, and I didn't have the courage to go on. And so finally, six months later, Shakespeare came to my rescue.

John Dehlin [00:31:20] How's that?

Fiona Givens [00:31:20] As he often does. Well, there's this line which is ironically given by Polonius and Hamlet. Part of the speech he gives is, to thine own self be true. Thou canst not then be false to any man. And that was what I needed. That gave me the courage to take the step.

John Dehlin [00:31:40] Wow.

Fiona Givens [00:31:41] And to be baptized.

John Dehlin [00:31:44] And how very British.

Fiona Givens [00:31:46] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:31:47] Have Shakespeare be your inspiration.

Fiona Givens [00:31:50] Yes. How very British. Yes. Shakespeare is near and dear to my heart, as is to all Englishmen. You are quite right.

John Dehlin [00:31:56] You know, and somehow Shakespeare escapes the accusation of a cliche. You can't really say how cliche that a British person was inspired by Shakespeare, because I think Shakespeare transcends cliches.

Fiona Givens [00:32:08] Yes, yes, I agree. I agree. Absolutely.

Baptism and Immigration to the United States

John Dehlin [00:32:12] So you. So you decided to get baptized.

Fiona Givens [00:32:15] I did. I did. It was a wrenching. I mean, I was. I was a mess in the bathroom. The sweet sisters were comforting me. I was so frightened. I was crying all the way up. I know I delayed my baptism. People were wondering whether this was really going to happen at all. But I. But I was. Until I got into the waters. But as I came out of the waters of the baptismal font, I felt a peace that I had not felt. I felt a rightness. And I felt a validation from God that he acknowledged that the step that I had taken was an extraordinarily painful and difficult one for me, but that it was. It was right, and that it would bring me joy and happiness eventually.

John Dehlin [00:33:02] Wow. And you know what? Pentecostal really is the right word to describe this experience.

Fiona Givens [00:33:08] Yes, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:33:10] Oh, that's Just what a gift.

Fiona Givens [00:33:12] Thank you. It was a gift. It was really lovely.

John Dehlin [00:33:16] And so at what age you were baptized? At what age?

Fiona Givens [00:33:19] I was 19. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:33:22] Wow.

Fiona Givens [00:33:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:24] Okay. So beautiful. So what'd you do? Well,

Fiona Givens [00:33:30] I ended up working with the church office buildings in Frankfurt. Actually. I worked for the area supervisor and the Presiding Bishopric area supervisor and the legal attorney, the legal counsel, Brother Farnsworth, for Europe. And both of them encouraged me very strongly to continue my academic studies. And I was a very wobbly convert. And so going back to England, my testimony would not have survived. And so they suggested that I go to. I apply to byu. And so I did apply. Was accepted.

John Dehlin [00:34:01] Wow.

Fiona Givens [00:34:02] Yeah, I know. I went to the American Consulate for my visa, which they turned down. They said I didn't have enough money for four years. And I tried to explain to them I had a job in the study abroad office, but they were having none of it, so they sent me packing. And so that was it. And I was. I was hopping between the German ward and the American serviceman's ward. And I was very close with the bishop and his family, and it was all. It was American servicemen. They were all related to the army and the Air Force. It's Frankfurt. So most, mostly army was huge American base in Frankfurt. And it just so happened that two weeks prior to that, we had a new family move into the ward, and he happened to be the head of the international visa section of the American Consulate. Now, how weird is that?

John Dehlin [00:34:45] Again.

Fiona Givens [00:34:45] Again, the one person I needed, and he just happens to walk into our ward two weeks prior. I mean, extraordinary.

John Dehlin [00:34:54] This is one long Sunday school miracle right here.

Fiona Givens [00:34:57] Except, yeah, it really is. But anyway, so my bishop said, you know, we have a problem. And he said, oh, not a problem. I'll have a problem. 4 year multiple entry visa for her next week. And he did.

Fiona Givens [00:35:09] And then it was a question of, you know, choosing classes. And in England, you major right away. You know, you go three years, you read a subject. When I was confronted by this huge book and too much choice. I'm European, after all. It's like, choice is fine, but not like 1000 pages of classes I could possibly take. And so, again, you know, it was his brother. Sandra was. I think it was elder Theodore Burton's nephew. And he was doing research in Europe and visited building. And he talked to me about comparative literature. And I fell in love with the discipline. I thought, oh, this is marvelous.

Fiona Givens [00:35:45] I'd never heard anything, anything like it before. And I spoke French and German, and I love literature. And it was like Great. And so I applied for the introductory class to Comparative Literature with Larry Pier. And I showed up on that first day sitting on the front row, and there was Terrell. I was. I was there, you know, on the front row, you know, engaged in displaying myself. And Terrell was on the back row engaged in self effacement.

John Dehlin [00:36:16] Opposites.

Fiona Givens [00:36:17] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:36:18] Okay. I have to ask how your parents are taking not only your baptism now, but you're moving to the United States and going to some school they'd probably never even considered existed.

Fiona Givens [00:36:32] Very badly. Very badly. My father's response was, fiona, they're very strange people over there. Are you sure you want to go over there? There are some very strange people among them.

John Dehlin [00:36:44] Yeah. Be terrifying for a parent.

Fiona Givens [00:36:47] Yeah, they were terrified. They were. They were very, very concerned. I think the wonderful thing about all of this, quite frankly, is Terrell, because then when I announced to them that, you know, that I was not only going to an American school, but that, you know, I was going to marry an American, that sort of hounded the problem. But Terrell has really been the avenue back to my family. My family adore him. He has been so kind and so considerate to them over the years that whatever headway I have made with my family is primarily because of my husband's kindness towards my family members.

John Dehlin [00:37:27] Really nice job, Terrell.

Terryl Givens [00:37:29] Yeah, well, thanks.

John Dehlin [00:37:32] Okay, this is great. Okay, so. And seriously, the first day of the first class, you met Taryl.

Fiona and Terryl's Courtship and Marriage

Fiona Givens [00:37:40] Seriously, the first day of the first class. And it was so strange because really I was. I was just absolutely, absolutely obnoxious. I was so full of myself. And, you know, I was going on about how brilliant I was and how wasn't everybody so, so pleased to have me in their midst. And then because, you know, Brother Pierre said, you know, please introduce yourselves. We got to the back row and there's this person who says, my name's Terrell Givens. He's going to. I turned around, I looked at him and it was the most remarkable thing because his eyes were. Had this light in them that I had seen on my mission. It was beautiful eyes. Luminous, radiant. And I thought, I really want to meet this guy. But how am I going to meet him if all he's going to say is, my name is Terrell Givens.

John Dehlin [00:38:32] So, Terrell, what was she like? I can see you maybe being a serious guy and I don't know you well enough to be able to guess, but a really studious serious guy. Who is this sort of. Who is this English person who's come and is drawing all this attention. Was she off putting or was it love at first sight?

Terryl Givens [00:38:54] Well, it was interest at first sight, that's for sure. But what, you know, I don't know that we ever actually went on a date. We went on a lot of walks together very soon after we first met. And what drew us together, I think, was that we had such a shared love of. Of so many things, but particularly of literature and art and music. And she was just refreshingly different from any. Any. Any kind of young woman that I had dated till then.

John Dehlin [00:39:24] Okay, so it was. For you, it was immediately engaging.

Terryl Givens [00:39:29] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:39:30] And were you off your mission by this point?

Terryl Givens [00:39:33] Yeah, one year off my mission.

John Dehlin [00:39:34] Okay.

Terryl Givens [00:39:35] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:39:35] Okay, Fiona, so you guys start dating, you're studying literature. What else should we know about your BYU experience and your courtship before we talk about the plunge?

Fiona Givens [00:39:49] Well, no, I think Terrell's quite right. We actually. I don't think we ever engaged in dating. We just walked and talked. We'd stay in the Wilkinson center until we were thrown out late at night. And it was just wonderful. I felt in Terrell that I had found not only a soulmate, but a mind mate and a heart mate. It was. It was. Again, you know, I hate to draw the analogy, but it was all Pentecostal. It was just. It was just absolutely fabulous. Just. We never ran out of subjects to talk about. We. I was never bored with his conversation. I loved his mind. It was bright and quick and nimble, and his heart was magnanimous and. And he was kind. It was just lovely.

Terryl's Own Spiritual Formation

John Dehlin [00:40:43] Terrell, I'm sorry I have to ask this, and I should remember, but I don't. Did you have a spiritual quickening or some type of comparable experience in your adolescence?

Terryl Givens [00:40:58] Well, not in such a concentrated fashion, I wouldn't say. We had joined the church when I was a young child and out west. And we had been rather in and out of the church over a period of many years. And I had had what I would call a sprinkling of experiences that I was able to draw upon in later years. But I really became rooted in the gospel just the year or two before I left on my mission.

John Dehlin [00:41:23] Okay, but by the time you meet Fiona, is the gospel a real important part is the light that's shining forth in your eyes at least partly, sort of, you know, is the wick in some sense or the wax, the gospel that helps support that flame?

Terryl Givens [00:41:45] Oh, absolutely. Yeah. The gospel was my rock by then.

John Dehlin [00:41:48] Okay. Okay. All right. So you guys were best friends from the start. Did you, Fiona? Did you date around, or was it just Terrell all the way?

Fiona Givens [00:41:57] No, I'd come to the States a little earlier and I had dated around, but I found the topics of my dates quite limiting. They either wanted to talk about cars or football, and I had no interest in one and knew nothing about the other. And American football games are dreadfully complicated. And I remember getting burnt at my first football game, and I thought, okay, if a game goes on for this long, that one is burnt by the end. One has to wear sunscreen to it. Then it's too long again.

John Dehlin [00:42:29] So, come on. Don't people get sunburned watching cricket or something? Rugby?

Fiona Givens [00:42:33] Oh, yeah. Well, yes, but it's English. It's a gentle sun and they wear hats and. No, rugby is fast and furious.

John Dehlin [00:42:41] I'm just pulling out all the British stereotypes.

Fiona Givens [00:42:43] No, you're right. You're absolutely right. You nailed them. We are a rugby family. So. Yeah, okay. But anyway, so, so I, I had, but I, I, it was. I was really thirsting for a more companionate relationship of ideas, very similar to the friendships that I had fostered when I was at Newhall. I had really close friends there. And again, it was this, you know, questing and diving into literature and art and asking questions. And I really miss that. And when I met Terrell, it was like it all came back again. The things that I really loved, all of these mental exercises and gymnastics, which I was brought up in, I just loved and was able to explore with Terrell.

John Dehlin [00:43:32] Beautiful. So did. So how soon did you guys get married?

Fiona Givens [00:43:36] Do you want to answer that question, darling?

Terryl Givens [00:43:38] Well, Fiona asked me after we'd been.

Fiona Givens [00:43:40] Oh, you liar. Oh, gosh, I should never. Don't believe him because I'm older than he now.

Terryl Givens [00:43:49] We made the decision rather quickly. We started dating, really in. Started our walks together in October, and we were, we were engaged by December, at which point I abruptly left for Vienna for six months with 39 young women. I guess I felt I needed a St. Anthony in the Desert experience before I could be sure that Fiona was the one.

Fiona Givens [00:44:11] Yeah, John, do you want to know where he proposed to me?

John Dehlin [00:44:14] Yes.

Fiona Givens [00:44:15] He proposed to me in the humor section of his father's bookshop.

John Dehlin [00:44:20] Yeah, that's the one your brother runs, right, Terrell or something like.

Terryl Givens [00:44:22] That's right. Seemed an appropriate place.

John Dehlin [00:44:25] So you were visiting, like, over Christmas. You were visiting the family, Right, Right in the humor section.

Terryl Givens [00:44:34] Yeah. Well, it was very symbolic of the kind of foundations we wanted to lay for our family.

John Dehlin [00:44:40] So is humor an important part of your relationship?

Fiona Givens [00:44:44] Oh, Absolutely, absolutely. Terrell is so funny. He has me in so stitches most of the time. His humor is very irreverent and absolutely delightful. So, yeah, it was really, really appropriate.

John Dehlin [00:44:59] Okay, so you're married by 20 then, Fiona?

Fiona Givens [00:45:03] No, I was old, I guess. I'd grown up. I worked in the church office buildings for a couple of years. I was turning. I was 22, turning 23. Terrell is six months older than I am. Don't let him tell you otherwise.

John Dehlin [00:45:18] Okay, so, Fiona, I have no idea how a late 20th century young woman would have been raised in Britain in terms of career and profession and ambition. What the above?

Fiona Givens [00:45:34] What's that with all of the above?

John Dehlin [00:45:36] Okay, so the UK would have been ahead of America in terms of feminism and women working and things like that.

Fiona Givens [00:45:46] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think the Second World War was, well, the First World War II, the First and Second World War was. We're really defining watersheds as far as women working in the, in the workforce. But also we have a history of really, really powerful women leading. You know, we have Elizabeth Bloody Mary, this Elizabeth, you know, the Iron Lady, Maggie Thatcher. So our history is saturated with very powerful women. So.

John Dehlin [00:46:12] Yeah, what a great, what a, what a great set of role models for a young lady.

Fiona Givens [00:46:18] No, absolutely. And, and I think also going to all girls schools and this just maybe my own experience, but also primarily taught by women as well. There was no such thing as a glass ceiling. We never felt inhibited or, or curtailed in, in our academic enterprises or achievements. And the school I went to was very academically driven. We were given awards for our academic progress. It was very important part of our upbringing. And so I do think there is a cultural difference, like the New.

Introduction to The God Who Weeps

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 386

Fiona Givens [00:00:00] 1, 2, 3.

Fiona Givens [00:00:29] But you're right. I think our life together of. Of searching and questing and supporting each other in our faith crises and in our, in our tragedies, shared and individual, have. Have brought us. Have not. Not brought us, but have educated us in these ways of recognizing that vulnerability is the salvific force in the universe that God chose to love us and in so doing made himself vulnerable. And as Dietrich Bonhoeffer, one of my great, great heroes, said, God wins power and space in the universe by his weakness. We are drawn to the suffering God, not the triumphant God. So it's our sufferings and friends of ours, their life tragedies and their experiences that they have shared with us that have brought us, I think, culminated in this book that we have written conjointly

John Dehlin [00:01:30] called the God who How Mormonism Makes Sense of Life. Sold at Deseret Book and everywhere. Okay, so here's how I. And this was your idea, Fiona. Here's how I'd like to structure this part of the interview. I would like to put you guys kind of on the spot. You know, your book's broken up into a few chapters. I'm going to read them really quick.

John Dehlin [00:01:57] And they are basically what this is. It's trying to, you know, this is just my understanding of it. You guys can correct me, but it seems like what this book is trying to do, it's trying to say Mormonism has a few great, great ideas that sometimes get lost. And they're powerful, they're salvific, they're transformative, and we need to put more attention on them and talk about them.

John Dehlin [00:02:30] And so it's broken up into five chapters and I'll just read them. The first is his heart is set upon us. The second is man was in the beginning with God. So that's sort of a pre existence. Then there is we are that we might have joy, the purpose of life.

John Dehlin [00:02:50] Then none of them is lost. A bit of a universalistic impulse. I'm going to sort of label that. And then participants in the divine nature. And that could go as far as the discussion about theosis of man becoming God. But even stepping one a step short of that, it's just being able to partake in as much of God's glory as we choose. And so that's how the book's set up. And what I'd like to do is have you guys in whatever order chronologically or topically you'd like. And, Terrell, I'm going to throw it to you and have you start. I would like to ask you guys to talk about, you know, let's talk about each one of the main points of the book from an experience or two that each of you have had in your life that informed your conviction about that particular chapter, to help give it color and to give you motivation to choose that and to want to offer it up as something powerful that we should consider. Does that question make sense at all?

Five Core Principles of the Book

Terryl Givens [00:04:03] Sure, sure.

John Dehlin [00:04:04] Okay.

Terryl Givens [00:04:04] That works well for us because I think, you know, the way that we see this book is, I mean, one could say that, yes, these are just five standard teachings or propositions in Mormonism. But for us, even though each one of these is a core Mormon principle, and though each one has universal resonance, we think with a broader humanity, we also believe that each one is a familiar theme, but with a particular twist in Joseph Smith's thinking. And these are five principles or articulations of these principles that we just feel very, very passionate. And so I'm going to let Fiona talk about the first one, because the first one was really the germ and the nucleus of the book that unfolded before us many years ago in Southern Utah.

John Dehlin [00:04:48] Okay, Fiona, before you do that, Terrill, I recall last time I interviewed you, and I don't want to say anything inappropriate. If you want me to cut this out, I will. But when I first approached you about doing the original Mormon Stories podcast, I remember you saying that the Deseret book wouldn't even carry all your books. How do we go from that to where they're publishing one of your books?

Terryl Givens [00:05:13] Okay, I'll detour a little bit to give you the background on how this book.

John Dehlin [00:05:15] Sorry, it's just. I.

Terryl Givens [00:05:17] It's fine. It's a good story. I was asked to give a keynote address at the Bonneville Communications Conference in New York City about a year ago.

John Dehlin [00:05:25] Travis and Russ Moorhead and my buddies at.

Terryl Givens [00:05:27] That's Right, that conference. And in the course of my remarks, I laid a lot of the blame for problems with media perceptions of Mormonism at the feet of. Of us, ourselves. And I said that we had been complicit in a compromise going all the way back to 1893, at the time of the Chicago World's Fair. At which time, what we learned in that week or two of the World's Fair was that we could sing and dance for the American public and they'd be happy with that. They'd let our Tabernacle Choir walk away with the silver medal, but they wouldn't let us talk theology. BH Roberts was barred from addressing the Parliament of Religion. So effectively, we said, okay, we'll sing and dance for you, and we want to ask you to take our theology seriously.

John Dehlin [00:06:08] Almost like minstrels.

Terryl Givens [00:06:09] Absolutely.

Fiona Givens [00:06:10] Absolutely.

Terryl Givens [00:06:11] So we're the singing minstrels, and Mormons have been happy to take that role.

John Dehlin [00:06:16] Right.

Terryl Givens [00:06:16] We have, you know, we dance with the stars and we provide quarterbacks.

John Dehlin [00:06:21] Donny and Marie.

Terryl Givens [00:06:22] Donny and Marie, exactly. But we don't really try to put our best theological foot forward. And that's why the median fills that vacuum with discussions about Kolob and Garden of Edens in Missouri and magic underwear. So it's not entirely the media's fault. So as I was saying, the people at the Bonneville Conference said, well, how can you talk theology on 30 second TV spots?

Terryl Givens [00:06:44] And I said, well, I think you could do it very easily. And then I rattled off these five propositions as examples just rather spontaneously. And there was a kind of shocked response to that as it, well, gosh, I guess you really could make a point about our God being a God who weeps when humans weep and rejoices when we rejoice. You could say that in 30 seconds. You could describe heaven in 30 seconds as the extenuation of those relationships that are most dear and precious to us in the here and now and so forth. So anyhow, I made those five points a little while later in the course of the conversation, I made reference to to the Great and Abominable Church of the Devil and made some wry remark about Deseret Book in connection with that designation.

Terryl Givens [00:07:33] And then I followed that with the observation that, with my luck, there's probably a representative from Deseret Book here. Well, it turns out there was. So some of my remarks made their way back to Sherry Dew rather quickly, and to her credit. Right. She contacted me and she said, I understand you have some concerns about Deseret Book. Can we talk about this? And so we did. We had a very good exchange, and I spoke very frankly about what I thought was an opportunity that Deseret hadn't exploited to really shape Mormon intellectual culture in more vigorous and deliberate ways.

Terryl Givens [00:08:09] And so apparently she gave that some thought. We exchanged a few more emails, and I heard nothing further. But then A few months later, out of the blue, she called me and she said, you know, going back to those five things that you talked about at the conference in New York, would you be willing to write a book based on those five?

Terryl Givens [00:08:27] And I said, sure, I'd love to. And shortly after that, I realized that, well, these are ideas that have really coalesced as a result of my life and conversations over the course of many years with Fiona. And so that was when we decided to do it jointly. So I have to say at this point that I have to give Sherry Dew a great deal of credit because rather than reacting defensively, she took up the challenge and she said, well, let's. Let's move forward in this kind of a direction that. That. That you urged.

John Dehlin [00:08:57] Nice, beautiful story. I love that. Love that story. So that. That wasn't too long ago.

Terryl Givens [00:09:02] No. She contacted us in the spring, and we put the book together by early summer.

John Dehlin [00:09:08] That's amazing. Okay. All right. So that is. That's what I wanted to know. All right, Fiona, so you're going to set up the first chapter, is that right?

Moses 7 and the Image of a Weeping God

Fiona Givens [00:09:19] Yes. As Terrell said, we were reading. We were in Cedar Breaks, which is absolutely beautiful, one of the most beautiful places, calm and peaceful. And we happened to be reading Moses 7 aloud together. And I remember something happening to the air around us. It sort of crystallized into something beautiful. It was like beauty was being spoken into the air, and the air was resonating with it. It was really a remarkable experience. And so it sort of seared itself into my mind and heart. That Moses 7 was a very important scripture. I wasn't quite sure why then, but it. You know, as these things do, they percolate in your mind. And they did for a number of times. I mean, for a number of years. A friend of mine had had an awful experience. Something absolutely horrific happened to her when she was a little child.

Terryl Givens [00:10:13] And

Fiona Givens [00:10:15] later on in her life, she told me that she. That the Savior had appeared at the foot of her bed, and he was weeping. And he didn't offer her any platitudes. He didn't tell her to have more faith. He didn't tell her that, yeah, this life really is awful, but the next life is great. Nothing like that. All he said was, I am so sorry for your life, he repeated again and again as he was weeping.

Fiona Givens [00:10:42] When she woke up, her pillow was bathed in her own tears. But she was transformed. Inside. There was a strength that she now had that she didn't. She knew that the Savior loved and cared and mourned for her life.

Fiona Givens [00:11:00] He was incapable of preventing what had happened. The Lord God loves to use people around us. There was nobody there to come to her aid. So it was experiences like that the women shared with me of the tragedies in their lives and of their experiences with the divine that kept this idea of this vulnerable God alive in my mind. And I happened to be watching a film on Africa.

Fiona Givens [00:11:26] It was a very bloody film. It was about African genocide, quite frankly, and it was horrific. And at one point of the film, I just said, you know, I. I'm just telling you now, God, I don't want to be a God.

Fiona Givens [00:11:39] I don't know how you can do this, honestly. And should you be seeing somebody about it? Because this is awful. To subject yourself to this 247 on a personal, familial, societal, and global basis. Something's really wrong here. And so I just backed off and I said, I don't want this. I want the Seychelles and a library of books. That's what I wanted. I'm God.

John Dehlin [00:12:04] And Terrell.

Fiona Givens [00:12:05] Yeah, yeah.

Terryl Givens [00:12:06] Don't forget.

Fiona Givens [00:12:06] That's it. No, not you, my darling. You're coming. Coming with the sunscreen and your library. Anyway, so it was just a really. I was angry. I was really angry with God. And, you know, I just vented and I thought, okay, all right, well, I'm going to pick another God to worship then, because this is not working for me, especially if I'm supposed to become like you. And so I went through. And I don't have a huge pantheon of go. I know a number of them, but I went through them all and I kept coming back. And it was as though God was just waiting for me patiently.

Fiona Givens [00:12:39] And I realized that every other God out there has required his creation to sacrifice themselves for him, that this was the only God who had actually sacrificed himself for his creation. That in choosing to love us, he made himself vulnerable and chose to do that necessarily at the horror that would ensue.

Fiona Givens [00:13:02] And it just clicked. It was like, there is no other God worthy of emulation and adoration than this God. And so I went back to Moses. It was like I went. I started hunting through Moses because I knew the key was there. And I found it.

John Dehlin [00:13:22] Will you read us that passage? Or at least quote it or paraphrase it or.

Fiona Givens [00:13:27] Yeah. No, it's. When Enoch confronts God and he sees God is weeping and he recognizes that these aren't happy tears. And the earth shakes Now Zion has been taken up. Enoch's a good man. He's got all of those wonderful divine attributes. But this idea of God weeping is so horrifying to him. Essentially, that's why I think I was drawn to it, because he was having exactly the same experience I was. And he doesn't ask God, why are you weeping? He asks him, how canst thou weep, seeing thou art from all eternity to all eternity? He asks the question three times.

Fiona Givens [00:14:08] He is so discombobulated. He is so shattered. It's like, you know, a seminary student discovering that Joseph actually used a peep stone in the bottom of the hat rather than the urim and thumb. I mean, it was that sort of an experience he was having, you know, and it was like, this doesn't work in my velt unshown. Heaven is a happy place. You're the author of heaven. How is it possible that you're crying?

Fiona Givens [00:14:30] And then God responds, and he says, you know, these are my creation. I've created them. I gave them agency. They hate themselves. They hate. They hate each other. They hate me. They are without affection. Wherefore should not the heavens weep, seeing that these shall suffer?

Fiona Givens [00:14:46] And it was just there, you know, that it was really crystallized to me that God isn't crying because his creation is wicked. He's crying because they are sin, suffering. It's a lot of the suffering is caused by the dreadful things we do to each other. Indeed. But it is the suffering that elicits his tears, not their wickedness. And that came to me with such force and clarity that I knew that this was the defining characteristic of God. Everything else, it's rather like the great Commandment. You have the first commandment, and then everything sort of falls off of that.

Fiona Givens [00:15:22] It's his vulnerability. It's the core of his existence. It's what. What makes him God, what makes him turn. And the really important thing, John, was that, unfortunately, I think Mormons tend to blur God the Father and God the Son into sort of this amorphous nothing. You know, it's like we say they're distinct, but we never know who's talking, and we never know when they're talking. So we call it divine investiture just to try and get ourselves off the hook. But in Moses 7, it is Elohim speaking. And he makes it very clear because he says, man of holiness is my name. And then he goes on with another list of titles, and then he says, my son is called the Son of Man.

Fiona Givens [00:16:05] It's very clear that it's Elohim who is speaking. And I think it's important for us to understand that It's Elohim because the very real vulnerable God is personified in Christ. We see him in Christ, absolutely, but we pray to God the Father.

Fiona Givens [00:16:21] So it's really, really important that we understand that he is also vulnerable, that he is the one who authored all of this and made Himself vulner. And so that we know that when we are praying to him, he really does understand.

Fiona Givens [00:16:37] And I think for us, it was so important to rescue God's reputation because heavenly Father, I mean, not heavenly mother, because her reputation is not in jeopardy. It has not been tarnished, but his has. Over the centuries, he's been labeled as indifferent, as distant, as angry, as genocidal as so many things that people are confused.

Fiona Givens [00:17:07] And so positing this idea of this vulnerable God that is emphatically embedded in the pearl of great price in Moses 7 was a starting point for all of the other things that we talk of. And I would love to Terrell to speak about the pre existence, because that's his thing and he does it so beautifully.

God's Vulnerability and Response to Human Suffering

John Dehlin [00:17:28] So, so before Terrell jumps in, one thought occurred to me and I think you, you touch on these sentiments very thoroughly in the book. But if, if God's any God worth worshiping, he better be weeping. Right?

Terryl Givens [00:17:45] Right.

John Dehlin [00:17:46] That was just a thought I had. But, but, but I know that we're not going to solve the theodicy in, you know, in 90 seconds, but so just tell us quickly how you view God as it relates to human suffering, just your framework for it.

Fiona Givens [00:18:08] Well, the framework for it is the fact that he is God. And so as God, he has innumerable choices open to him. And yet he found himself amidst intelligences who were inferior to himself. And he could have just walked away, but instead he said to us, inferior intelligences, intelligences nonetheless, and said, you know, this is what it means to be part of my family. Would you care to be part of my family? And we all said, yes.

Fiona Givens [00:18:44] And I think that's really empowering and empowers God. And it empowers us because we made this decision to follow him. As harrowing as this life is for him and ourselves, that we're in it together. We're in it together to the very, very end. And God promises that we will all return home, all of us who come here. I think Joseph has this beautiful quote where, saying, where he says that God will ferret out every soul.

Fiona Givens [00:19:15] And that of course, then spills into our universalism. It's like if he has, if he is a God who truly loves us all, then he would Devise a plan whereby he could save all of mankind. If not, it's a pretty lousy plan to begin with. And we don't think that he is a bad architect. We think he is a brilliant architect. So the plan that he devised was one that would ensure our endless joy at the end of all of this pain and suffering and that he shares in our sorrows. And it's right there in Messiah. Mourn with those that mourn. It's part of our baptismal covenant, which I think is so central.

Fiona Givens [00:20:00] But it's. He's speaking. He mourns with us, but then he also rejoices with us. And I just. God doesn't exist outside of time. He exists in time. He is intimately connected with our lives. I think that's.

John Dehlin [00:20:15] So what I hear you saying is that he's with us. He's part. And you have a faith that the suffering will all be made right in the end?

Fiona Givens [00:20:30] Oh, absolutely, absolutely. I mean, we would go to Isaiah for that. I mean, it's gorgeous. You know, he will replace ashes with beauty, the oil of joy for the oil of mourning. I mean, it's there. I mean, that's his promise to us, is that this is going to be hard. This is going to be painful, but there is joy. There is this promise of joy at the end. And also it's Adam in that beautiful hymn. I mean, he acknowledges that even in this life I shall have joy. So it's not all pain and suffering. And there are, there are. Joy does erupt into our lives from time to time.

Fiona Givens [00:21:15] Beautiful signs. The birth of a child, the kindness of a friend, you know, somebody mourning with us when we are mourning. I mean, there is so much joy in this life, perilous as it is, that we can hold onto and gives us momentum to continue to move forward

John Dehlin [00:21:37] and just to tie this up. And it's the toughest part of probably this whole conversation. What do you do with the really hard, really difficult elements of humanity that the atheists and the agnostics like to throw out to just really do a gut punch to God? What do you do with the really difficult trials of humanity, natural disasters and, you know, the things that are. That are very, very difficult?

Agency, Hardship, and Pre-Mortal Choice

Fiona Givens [00:22:06] How do you know That's a. That's a brilliant question, John. I think it is the structure of the universe to which we agreed. I think we knew that it was going to be very difficult. It's all a question. Well, I think we tend to put a lot of responsibility on God, like too much. It's like why weren't you there to stop the tsunami when in actual fact the Lord said, the poor you will always have with you. There will always be natural disasters. There will always be tragedies. What are you going to do about it?

Fiona Givens [00:22:39] I feel that we need to take more responsibility ourselves to alleviate tragedy and crisis and, you know, and those sort of things. I mean, God is giving us an opportunity. Okay, this is what's happened. You know, this hurricane has struck.

Fiona Givens [00:22:56] What are you going to do? What is your part to be. And I think he's giving us an opportunity to, you know, to quote that, you know, savior's on Mount Zion. But really it is. We have an amazing. We are empowered to save each other, to help each other. And I think we should take it. I think we should grasp that it is not. We should not leave it up to God or up to our leaders to direct and guide. But, you know, we should be anxiously engaged in good causes ourselves of our own free will and choice, I think.

John Dehlin [00:23:31] Yeah. Just two quick responses. The old John in me wants to sort of say, well, isn't that just a position of privilege that we, you know, white, Western affluent people have the luxury of minimizing the pain and suffering of some of the third world type things that go on. But the truth is, I've lived in those third world countries, and I'd have to say that the mean levels of joy of some of the most disadvantaged people is often much higher than the people I meet every day on the streets in Logan. So I don't want to trivialize the pain and suffering of humanity, but that's the answer that I would give to the old question that I would have given myself.

John Dehlin [00:24:13] But also, I just want to say as a psychologist, how important empowerment is to motivation and meaning and purpose. And I do feel like instead of just this passive, God, why did you do this? And God, why aren't you doing that?

John Dehlin [00:24:33] Thinking of this existence as we're partners in a very big enterprise. God is our leader, master, friend, and we have a chance to partner with him, to do something beautiful. But much of the great work lays in our hands, not just his. That can be a very empowering vision for our purpose and meaning in life.

Fiona Givens [00:25:02] Absolutely, John. High five. I am so with you on that.

John Dehlin [00:25:06] Yeah, I love that. I love that message of responsibility. I love it. Okay, Terryl so she's asking for you to talk pre existence.

Terryl Givens [00:25:17] Okay, well, the second chapter.

John Dehlin [00:25:18] We wrote a book. You wrote a book on this, right? I think I've got it up on my shelf. I Did I did have wings. I'm just going to plug your book, if you don't mind.

Terryl Givens [00:25:25] Yeah, thanks. Yeah, that was my first foray, kind of outside of Mormon studies. That was really an intellectual history of the idea of premortal life from Babylon to the present. And what that alerted me to, I think, was the fact that we have so much to learn from other traditions about pre existence and the power and beauty and richness of that idea. I frequently say that Joseph Smith, in the case of pre existence got the answer, but he didn't know what the question was.

Terryl Givens [00:25:59] And what we find is that it's revelation, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, it just came. And he kind of espouses this doctrine of pre existence when it first pops up even by 1830. But he doesn't develop it much, he doesn't explore it or seem to understand exactly what the richness and potential of the idea is.

Terryl Givens [00:26:17] And one has to turn outside the tradition to come to appreciate, I think, how powerfully pre existence serves to establish a basis for human freedom, how it explains the familiar resonance of the good, the true and the beautiful in our lives. It makes greater sense of the variety of human predicaments and conditions that we encounter as mortals. It can explain the power and immediacy of some of the most intense human relationships. So there's this whole range of powerful theological work that pre existence can do.

Terryl Givens [00:26:52] And the appeal of this idea throughout time, throughout history, suggests that Mormons do a much better job of putting that forward as one of the great lost pearls that has been restored through Joseph Smith's ministry.

Edward Beecher and the Doctrine of Pre-Existence

Fiona Givens [00:27:10] Darling, tell John the story of Edward Beecher, because I think that really influenced you and that's such a beautiful story.

Terryl Givens [00:27:18] Well, we discovered that in the course of the history of pre existence, many people sacrificed their scholarly reputations, their ministries, even their careers to bring to light this doctrine. And the best example of that was probably Edward Beecher. He was a member of the famous Beecher family. Everybody's heard of Henry Ward Beecher and Lyman Beecher, his father, and Harriet Beecher Stowe, the author of Uncle Tom's Cabin, but nobody's heard of Edward Beecher. And he's faded from history. And this is the background to why he has disappeared. In the 1820s, his sister Catherine was engaged to be married and her fiance drowned at sea in a shipwreck.

Terryl Givens [00:28:00] As they were going through his effects, they discovered that he was a non believer. So this staunch Calvinist family had to break the news to Catherine that she had been engaged to an infidel and he would spend eternity in hell. Well, she wasn't about to accept that notion. And she conferred with her brother Edward, who was himself a recent graduate of a seminary. And he tried to help her work through the crisis of faith that this idea precipitated in her mind. But he found that the more he studied it out, the more he was swept into the same dark abyss that she was in.

Terryl Givens [00:28:34] And as he struggled and labored prayerfully over a course of many months to come to terms with God's justice in this matter, he one day experienced what his brother described as a sunburst in a darkened cathedral. A revelation that revealed to him the entire plan of salvation, beginning with the premortal existence of the human spirit in God's presence.

Terryl Givens [00:28:59] And as a consequence of this vision that he had, the plan of salvation suddenly made full sense to him. And he went to his father, like the young Joseph Smith. But unlike Joseph Smith, Edward Beecher's father told him, don't go public with this or you'll lose your job and your future.

Terryl Givens [00:29:17] So for a number of years, he kept his Revelation secret. But by the 1850s, he was convinced that Christianity was headed toward a catastrophic implosion because of the conflict between a basic sense of justice and a Calvinist conception of deity. And so he published his Revelation and expanded it into a 400 page book called Conflict of the Ages, published in 1853. And as his father predicted, it did in fact finish him off as a public figure. And I tracked his biography, handwritten biography written by his brother, down to a college in Illinois. And on top of this manuscript, history of his life, there was a note that said, we bequeathed to you this manuscript history of the life of Edward Beecher, a man of unusual promise and potential. Unfortunately, he became distracted by the ridiculous heresy of the pre existence which highlighted his career.

John Dehlin [00:30:18] Wow.

Terryl Givens [00:30:20] So we discovered in the course of this book and our other researches into the so called apostasy, there were many, many valiant, noble souls that gave their all to restore truths to a Christian world, looking and yearning for fuller understandings. Very inspirational.

John Dehlin [00:30:42] That's a beautiful story. Thank you. And thank you, Fiona, for asking Terrell to share it. So something comes to mind. I was at a sunstone, one of my first sunstones, and Michael Quinn gave a talk. And I think it was referring to when President Hinckley was asked by Time magazine at some point about the doctrine of man becoming gods. And I know I'm sort of saying this out of place, but I want to tie it to the talk about the pre existence.

John Dehlin [00:31:16] You know, the way that some people interpret President Hinckley's response was that he was sort of trying to distance himself from that doctrine and Michael Quinn's. You know, at the time, I didn't believe that Michael Quinn was a sincere believer. I didn't think it was possible that one of the September 6th could still literally be literal believers in plates and in a God and in the Restoration. But he ended his talk by saying that distancing ourselves from these core Mormon doctrines was akin to selling our birthright for a mess of porridge. And the reason why that thought came to mind is because I'm thinking about the.

John Dehlin [00:32:01] The contradiction between the fact that I grew up listening to and loving Saturday's Warrior and the whole premise of Saturday's Warrior was that there's a pre existence. And I'm telling you, I get chills right now thinking about that narrative and the music and the message and line upon line and the whole deal.

John Dehlin [00:32:24] Yet this is one of the most mocked and dismissed principles probably in modern Mormonism, that if you're to say, oh, I feel like I knew them in the preexistence, that's like a joke. And to say, we have to have another child, because I feel like there's one waiting. It's almost like this has become a doctrine that's mocked. And you can respond to that if you want to.

Terryl Givens [00:32:54] Yeah, I will.

John Dehlin [00:32:54] Okay. Okay.

Terryl Givens [00:32:56] Well, I think it's the representations and the sentimentalization of that idea that is subject to mockery. When I was in the early stage of this book, I made a presentation to the University of Richmond faculty. It was an interdisciplinary presentation. Several dozen faculty members were present from the psychology department, history department, science department, the whole gamut of the university. And I spoke for 45 minutes on this idea that pre existing.

Terryl Givens [00:33:22] And I have to say, the response of that audience was absolutely electric. They were intrigued, they were fascinating, and most interestingly, they were bewildered. The question which arose again and again was why haven't we heard of this? This has enormous appeal. It makes tremendous theological sense. Why did it disappear from Christian history?

Terryl Givens [00:33:46] As a missionary in Brazil, we had trouble teaching a lot of doctrines. But not once in two years did I ever find an investigator who was resistant to the notion of premortal existence. I think there's something deeply intuitive in our natures that responds to that idea when it's taught with sobriety and clarity.

John Dehlin [00:34:07] It's so beautiful to have somebody stand up strongly for distinct Mormon doctrine. I mean, as a Mormon, it just. It feels like I Want to cheer, you know, to hear someone who's thought through this and then they stand up and say, yes, yeah, yeah, we believe this. Yep. Before we move on to the next point, and I'll ask this to either of you. Have there been moments in your life personally where the pre existence has had personal meaning to you that you're comfortable sharing without asking you to share something too personal?

Terryl Givens [00:34:48] Well, I can't give a specific experience. I can say that I am haunted by the idea of pre existence, that I find it gives a compelling explanation for a kind of familiarity that I sense not only to certain truths as I hear them and they're manifest to me, but also to certain experiences and states of being.

Terryl Givens [00:35:18] I can also say that Fiona and I had a number of deeply spiritual experiences in the course of writing this book where we felt confirmed again and again in the importance of the idea that we were bringing forth and in the voice that we were giving to so many deceased representatives of this idea throughout history. I mean, it's absolutely astounding the number of people and the intellectual and theological sophistication of people who have defended and advocated this idea through the centuries. I mean, all the English romantics, the greatest Cambridge platonists of the 17th century, theologians and philosophers of the caliber of Immanuel Kant and Goethe. It's got quite an esteemed prehistory.

John Dehlin [00:36:08] Beautiful. So, Terrell, I should probably just ask the question, but I'm going to answer it for you and then let you respond. And that's just that sometimes this notion of pre existence maybe has been misused in ways that almost can blame the victim and. And take people who are already sort of down on their luck and heap more difficulty upon them by blaming current situations to things that might have happened in the past or defects of character in the past. I'm going to guess that that holds no part in your view of pre existence or yours, Fiona, But I'll give you a chance to respond.

Terryl Givens [00:36:54] Well, sure, if you got three minutes for another story.

John Dehlin [00:36:56] Yeah, please.

Terryl Givens [00:36:57] I can tell you how in the history of pre existence the doctrine has been used to propound an explanation for present inequities of circumstance exactly opposite to what developed in Mormon folklore. In the case of Plato and his Republic. He has a discussion in the 10th book where he imagines a scene where spirits are gathered together, preparing to be embodied.

Terryl Givens [00:37:22] And as they contemplate their future lives, they are told that they will be able to select the very conditions under which they obtain a mortal body as those who are given first choice. Are about to choose lives of greatest ease and richness and health. The prophet who is addressing them pauses and says, remember, the purpose of life is the acquisition of virtue.

Terryl Givens [00:37:51] The easiest path in life is not necessarily the most conducive to that virtue. So choose carefully. In other words, the implication there is that people might very well have chosen to be born under disadvantaged circumstances, knowing that it would be conducive to a life of greater virtue, greater learning, greater educative value.

Terryl Givens [00:38:15] So the beauty and the power of that myth in Plato is that it plants the seeds of an idea in the mind that those inequities that we see are not a reflection of spiritual inferiority, but of spiritual superiority. Now, in either case, we're merely speculating. But the point is, Mormon mythology and folklore could have developed in the opposite direction to that in which it did. And that we always make a connection between present circumstance and previous state at our peril.

John Dehlin [00:38:50] Yeah. And so we can sort of decide that we want to have noble interpretations of the pre existence or ignobling. What's the opposite of ennobling?

Terryl Givens [00:39:03] Yeah, ignoble. Exactly. Or employ that doctrine in order to advocate or justify inequality or disadvantage.

John Dehlin [00:39:12] And I like the former. I'll go ahead, Fiona.

Beauty, Suffering, and the Human Longing for More

Fiona Givens [00:39:14] Now, I think what you said earlier, John, is so important. You said that you had been in. Spent some time in developing nations and you found there a beauty and a sense of value, possibly joy there that we don't experience in our more advanced, more technologically and economically driven societies.

Fiona Givens [00:39:38] And so, you know, I think that's really, really interesting. You know, what. What is. What brings the greatest joy? You know, family solidarity and happiness and caring for each other or caring for oneself and seeing how much money one can accumulate in one's trust fund somewhere. You know, I mean, that's a bit facetious, I suppose, but you mentioned it earlier, and I think you're quite right. And I think we're always so this definition of the other, you know, it's.

Fiona Givens [00:40:09] That is one thing I love about missions. America is so geographically isolated from the rest of the world, is that we tend to develop this very superior notion of our superiority. And I love the idea of missionaries being sent into all parts of the world to learn to love and to serve and to recognize that all cultures have incredible value and value systems that are worth incorporating.

John Dehlin [00:40:42] Yeah. And I'll just share one final remark, and that's that I've worked for Microsoft, I've worked for mit, I've hung around a lot of rich and powerful people. And if you Think about, in our Western society, and probably in any society these days, who is most ennobled, who is viewed as the wise? It's not the rich, successful, powerful person. When someone gets rich, wise and powerful, what do they do? They go to India and find some monk. The existence seems to point towards humility and kindness and love and wisdom as the ultimate virtue. And you cannot argue that a third world existence is deprived of those sensibilities. You just can't argue that.

Fiona Givens [00:41:31] Absolutely, Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:41:33] Okay, well, Terryl set you up for the next chapter or two. Yes.

The Fall as Ascent: A Distinctly Mormon View

Fiona Givens [00:41:41] Another uniquely Mormon doctrine, that the Fall is not a fall, fortunate or otherwise. It is an ascent. If God is setting us on this trajectory to become like him and Christ himself is embodied, then I think the Mormon view of the Fall as being an ascent is much more coherent. I think we see this in the fact that after Adam and Eve had partaken of the fruit, the response of God is they have become as one of us. Very few people recognize that line right there, and it's so significant.

John Dehlin [00:42:22] Okay, wait, is that the Bible?

Fiona Givens [00:42:24] Yes, in Genesis. So it's there in the Bible for everybody to read, but nobody seems to notice it.

John Dehlin [00:42:30] We really don't pay attention, do we?

Fiona Givens [00:42:32] We don't. We don't. And it's like such an important line. It's probably the most important line we get. We all get lost in the, you know, pulling weeds and giving birth and, and we, we. We don't see this incredible line that we have actually stepped forward. We have moved towards God in our imitation of the divine. So it's fabulous. And I think it's reiterated in both Adam's and Eve's acclamations that this was the right thing to do. And I think we empower Eve for all of Christianity. She's been blamed, and she and women for being in the wrong place, wrong time, whatever.

Fiona Givens [00:43:17] But I just. The Mormon conception of Eve is this powerful woman who is wrestling with these principles. And it's not a question of between good and evil. That's much too easy. It's a question of. It's a Hegelian dilemma. It's a question of two goods, the safety and security of the garden, or, you know, this beauty, goodness and wisdom. You know, she's weighing them. Adam isn't there. He's playing a computer game somewhere else in the garden. She is there confronting Satan. And she makes the decision as she weighs these things. And I'm wondering if in the back of her mind that something is just nagging and saying, Eve, if you do this, it's going to be really, really bad for you personally.

Fiona Givens [00:44:05] And she's been vilified all through Christianity for taking of the fruit when what she did was tremendously courageous and helped us, enabled us, empowered us to become more like the divine. And it's right there. It's core Mormon doctrine. We celebrate her as the heroine of man's ascent onto this continued path towards divinity. It's fabulous.

John Dehlin [00:44:33] And if I were a woman, that is the narrative I would want for the mother of humanity, right?

Fiona Givens [00:44:39] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:44:40] Or a man. Or a man. Either one.

Fiona Givens [00:44:43] Yeah. Yeah. It's just so empowering. It's fabulous.

John Dehlin [00:44:50] People often wonder how, for all the things that Joseph may have done that we might criticize, critics have to be able to answer the question, how did he maintain so much loyalty? And as we think about these doctrines and wonder whether in some ways they were able to come through him because of his sensibilities, you get the sense that he's adding such a hopeful spin to core doctrines that otherwise were formed.

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