Introduction and Episode Overview

Carey Foushee [00:00:00] Sa.

John Dehlin [00:00:29] Hello everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. We're broadcasting live from holiday, Utah. It's November 17, 2017. My name is John Dehlin, and we're really excited about the topic that we have in store today. As some of you who follow Mormon Stories will know, we've been doing this series on what we're calling Neo Apologetics.

John Dehlin [00:00:54] What I'm defining Neo Apologetics as is sort of a new apologetic movement in Mormonism that's different from classic Mormon apologetics. So when you think of classic Mormon apologetics, think of sort of Hugh Nibley, think of Daniel Peterson, think of Brian Hales Fair and Farms and the Maxwell Institute historically, before the changes of late. And it's basically attempts to defend Mormonism through science, sometimes some would say pseudoscience or not very high quality science. It's the reliance on sort of sometimes ad hominem attacks to attack anyone who's willing to question the church.

John Dehlin [00:01:44] And it's sort of apologetics that either gaslights or invalidates the doubting perspective. And we'll just call that classic Apologetics. Please check out our past two Mormon Stories episodes to understand that a little bit better. We've been doing those with Dan Witherspoon of Mormon Matters podcast, and we hope to have him back for more analysis of that. But we're contrasting that with what we're calling neo Apologetics. You can think of Neo Apologetics as the work of Patrick Mason with his book Planted with Terrell, and Fiona Givens with Richard Bushman, which is very much more a pastoral approach. There's a lot of love, a lot of empathy for doubters and questioners.

John Dehlin [00:02:32] And it's not so much an attempt to respond to challenges of the church's truth claims directly through the use of science. There's a heavy reliance on humanities and on just almost poetry and theology to sort of see if we can not only help people stay at the church, but also provide people with ways to see the church differently. And in no arena, I think, has Neo Apologetics sort of been more influential in the church than this sort of dynamic of Terrell and Fiona Givens traveling around the world, literally paid for by an organization that at one time was called the Temple Observatory Group, I think they were called, which were a group of wealthy Mormons who pooled money to pay for the Givens to fly all over the world and to do these types of workshops and retreats.

John Dehlin [00:03:34] Temple Observatory Group, I think, was their name. And so they've done this. And to some extent it's really Kind of a little bit secretive and behind the scenes, but I think they might object to that characterization because I think in some cases, these firesides have been advertised more broadly and just kind of open to the public.

John Dehlin [00:03:58] And so what we're doing right now is we're actually going to bring on to Mormon Stories Podcast two individuals who. Who recently attended one of these Terrell and Fiona Gibbons firesides. And the fireside that was held in Arizona, I believe, and we'll get more details about it. The fireside was held to discuss the new book that the Givens have come out with. The book is called the Christ who Heals, which is a follow up to the God who Weeps, which, again, is a very poetic kind of humanity sort of device.

John Dehlin [00:04:31] You know, the God who Heals, the Christ who Weeps. It almost sounds like poetry. And that's sort of what we're talking about here. They were in Arizona at a fireside to promote their book, and the two individuals who we have on board talking to us today were two men who were actually in attendance. And so the two men that we have with us to discuss this are Scott Turley and Kerry. How do I pronounce your last name?

Carey Foushee [00:05:05] Fouche. Like Fouche, but Fouche.

John Dehlin [00:05:08] Yeah. And we're just gonna talk about what the Givens are saying, what they're teaching, and kind of get Scott and Kerry's reactions to what the Givens are teaching personally, what it means to them, and then we're gonna try and have a little bit of a conversation about what it all means, or does it mean to mormonism in the 21st century. So with that, what I want to do is welcome both Scott and Carrie to Mormon Stories for the first time. And I want to invite each of them to briefly kind of introduce themselves to our audience. So, Scott Turley, would you mind going first and introducing yourself to our audience?

Guests Introduce Themselves and Their Backgrounds

Scott Turley [00:05:51] Yeah. Hi. Thanks for having me on. My name is Scott. I have been a lifelong member of the church. The Turley name goes back all the way back to Joseph Smith. I grew up in Arizona, and I kind of gotten into this world of liberal Mormonism.

Scott Turley [00:06:13] I'm not quite sure how long ago now, but my sister actually sent me a link to your podcast, John, several years ago, and she had kind of gotten introduced to it just before that, and it just kind of led me, got me on this journey. I just kept listening. And I especially enjoyed some of these neo apologetic interviews that you. Using the term you're using, especially the Bushman interviews, the Giddens Interviews Adam Miller, Those were the ones that really spoke to me and kind of really got me firmly in this kind of world of liberal Mormonism and kind of in that journey. It kind of led me to the Facebook groups.

Scott Turley [00:06:51] And so I was in, I think, some of the Mormon stories Facebook groups for a while, and eventually a thoughtful faith group came up and I joined that. And actually I've been a moderator for that group now for the past three or four years, I believe.

Scott Turley [00:07:06] So, yeah, that's pretty much kind of a brief summary of how we've gotten into this kind of part of Mormonism. But I've loved it. I really love this kind of light over here in this corner of Mormonism with the Givens and Bushmans and Adam Miller and some of the other kind of take on Mormonism. It really speaks to me. So I'm happy to be here and talk about that.

John Dehlin [00:07:29] So happy to have you here. And I just can't say how important I believe the work of the a thoughtful faith Facebook group is you and Jerry Lee and Mark Crago and Dan and everyone else who participates. Who are some of the other mods, John, that are okay. Being mentioned? Public issues?

Scott Turley [00:07:47] Yeah, I'm not sure about that. Yeah, we have a handful. We've had some recent ones that are doing a lot of good work. So. Yeah. Not sure who would be. Who'd mind being made public. So I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:07:59] Okay.

Scott Turley [00:08:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:00] And that's how I learned about this Fireside. Okay. Well, Scott, it's great to have you. Kerry, why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself as well.

Carey Foushee [00:08:07] Yep. Kerry Fichet, living here in Mesa, Arizona. I've. I go back to Mormon Stories about seven years ago, listening to your podcast. I was even. There was a. When we Mormon Stories used to have the little local groups. I had the. I was in the Phoenix Mormon Stories Book Club. That was pretty vibrant thing going on. We had book clubs and played basketball together at the church. We did. We did lots of different things as a. As a group for a long time. And I was really involved in the Facebook and all those online groups for a while.

Carey Foushee [00:08:49] I think over the last maybe year or two. I've kind of just my Facebook time and thoughtful faith. I am a member of that, but I haven't really been as participant on it. You know, I kind of just come in and come out. So. But yeah, I've definitely been still involved in the Mormon studies or the. What Scott's called Mormon liberalism. I've been reading the books of the Givens, the Bushmen, Joe Spencer, those, you know, so, you know, I listened to a lot of different podcasts. I still am a pretty avid podcast listener. I'm not. I don't consider myself a scholar and, you know, in the Mormon studies thing, but I do like to read and participate that, you know, just as an informed person. And, you know, I still am an active member of the church and going. And that's me.

John Dehlin [00:09:47] All right, well, it's a real honor to have you both. I am going to just mention, because that's a. It's an important part of our values here in the Open Stories foundation and Mormon Stories. We don't like it that there's just three. Three men here and no women.

John Dehlin [00:10:04] And we did arrange to have Renee Brunner van Aostal join us because she was one of the main people, as I understand it, to help organize this event and was also a participant. But we, you know, recording time came, and we haven't heard from Renee, so we're hoping she can still join us. But we also want you to know that for us, it's suboptimal to not have a woman joining us. And honestly, if there's a woman who's listening right now who attended this event and who wants to participate in this conversation, I would literally share with you the link. You can join us, and we would love to have you.

John Dehlin [00:10:48] So just message me on Facebook if you are a woman who attended this event and wants to participate in the conversation. Again, we would just love to have you. All right, so, Scott, would you be the best person to kind of tell us what you know about how this event came to be and kind of what it was just to give listeners a sense for what's going on.

Reactions to the Givens Firesides

Scott Turley [00:11:09] Yeah, And I heard you talk about that organization that kind of organizes these firesides. I'm not sure that that was the case here. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:11:18] The Temple Observatory Group.

Carey Foushee [00:11:19] Yeah.

Scott Turley [00:11:19] Right, right. My understanding was the Givens is we're in Arizona. Anyway, there is a women's conference that happened a week earlier. So they were in town, that ward. I think they had a member that was in the Givens home ward back in Virginia at one point. And so they had a connection, and so they invited them over to their building to do this fireside. It was on a Friday evening, and it was made public. I knew some people on that ward, and I saw them advertise it on their Facebook page. And so I arranged it to head on out there. And so that's how. That's my understanding how it came about.

John Dehlin [00:11:59] Okay. Great. Tell us more about it.

Scott Turley [00:12:02] Okay. Yeah. So basically Fiona and Terrell Givens were both leading it and Fiona took the first half and Terrell took the second. And I didn't even know about the book, so I just kind of came in blind to that. But just to kind of talk about the main kind of topics that were that were described. And basically this is going to be through my own filter, so hopefully it's accurate. But it's what kind of struck me the main thing was they were really focused on what Joseph Smith was trying to do, especially in the context back then of, you know, the world. The United States at the time was very steeped in this Protestant Protestantism and it was very steeped in Adam, the original sin and salvation.

Scott Turley [00:12:51] Christ saving us from our sins and the God who kind of condemns us and the Jesus who advocates for our sins to this God who advocates. And he was really pushing up against that kind of view of God in Christ and especially really pointing out that Joseph Smith was doing the same thing. So rather than a Jesus who saves us from our sins, it's a Christ who heals us from our woundedness. And rather than a God who condemns us and judges us, it's a God who mourns with us and the God who weeps. Right.

Scott Turley [00:13:24] And rather than us having this sinful, like being born into a sinful state, we're actually born into a state of woundedness. And that our job here coming, it's not Adam. Kind of the event of Adam wasn't a fall, but rather an opportunity to ascend. Right. We come into this life to ascend back to God. So it's this idea of coming from this wounded state and finding Christ and through the process of our lives finding wholeness, which was his kind of replacement for perfection. So rather than be therefore perfect, be therefore whole through a Christ that heals. And that kind of paradigm shift I just found really beautiful and resonant.

Scott Turley [00:14:10] So that was. Those were the main kind of thesis. And he spent a lot of time going back and really digging out the scriptures that kind of proved this point in the Pearl. Great price in doctrine and covenants and looking at the original Greek of the New Testament and really try digging out kind of how kind of proving this thesis out. So that was the main summary of the prior said that I got out of it.

John Dehlin [00:14:35] Talk about what they said about baptism, what it was and what it wasn't.

Scott Turley [00:14:39] Yeah, no thanks. That's a good point.

Carey Foushee [00:14:41] Yeah.

Scott Turley [00:14:42] So commonly we view baptism as a remission of sin. So if life isn't necessarily about receiving forgiveness of sin, but being made whole from woundedness. So baptism, similarly, is not necessarily remission of sins, but. But it's an adoption into the body of Christ and then taking a covenant to being a collaborative partner with Christ and God to help each other receive that comfort. So it's going back to Alma of making a covenant to mourn with those who mourn, comfort those who stand in need of comfort, and to lift each other's burdens. And that's really what baptism is about. It's an adoption into the family of Christ to make a covenant to help each other in a collaboration with God to heal each other from our wounded state. So, again, yeah, that was a really important point that they made.

Carey Foushee [00:15:36] So.

John Dehlin [00:15:37] And then talk, and I'm just going through the bullets. You wrote in the thoughtful faith group talk about the judgment and what the judgment is and isn't according to the givens.

Scott Turley [00:15:48] Right, right, right.

Carey Foushee [00:15:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:49] So

Scott Turley [00:15:51] trying to remember. Exactly. So, yeah, the main point is I'll

John Dehlin [00:15:57] read what you wrote. You want me to read what you wrote?

Scott Turley [00:15:58] Yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [00:15:59] They talked about judgment as an event to see oneself clearly so that we can be healed.

Scott Turley [00:16:04] Yes, yes.

John Dehlin [00:16:05] Not so much as a. You know, is like, you're being judged with the big weight.

Scott Turley [00:16:09] Right.

John Dehlin [00:16:10] Of like, did you have enough sins or enough good things and counterbalancing that.

Scott Turley [00:16:14] Yeah, yeah. It's to bring out.

John Dehlin [00:16:15] It's.

Scott Turley [00:16:16] It's to allow ourselves to be aware of ourselves and to bring out these dark places so that we can be, like you said, we can be healed. And a big part of that is it's not like we're condemned to one kingdom. And that was another point that came up. This is a chance where we can kind of progress through the eternities to reunite with God. Right. And that's universally available to everybody. So. Yeah. And so, yeah, the judgment is a time of healing and a time of unification. It's time of finding union. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:48] It almost sounds like he's saying it's not sifting the wheat from the tares. It's not about exclusion.

Scott Turley [00:16:54] Right, right.

John Dehlin [00:16:55] Is that. Is that the sense you're basically conveying?

Scott Turley [00:16:58] Yeah, I think so. Yes.

Theology of the Givens: Degrees of Glory and Baptism

John Dehlin [00:16:59] Okay. And then you. You mentioned the three degrees of glory.

Scott Turley [00:17:03] Right.

John Dehlin [00:17:05] And, you know, historically, maybe many of us were taught there's no progression between kingdoms.

Scott Turley [00:17:10] Right, right. What.

John Dehlin [00:17:12] What were they saying about the three degrees of glory and progression?

Scott Turley [00:17:15] Yeah, I mean, he referenced Joseph Smith's brother Alvin, who died really young, and he said that Joseph Smith had this vision of seeing him in the terrestrial kingdom at one point and then later seeing another vision of him in the celestial kingdom. And so the point was that there is this progression, like we're not stuck in one kingdom. Right. It's the opportunity to progress from kingdom to kingdom. And he ended. This was a little bit controversial in that Facebook post, but what I got out of it was this was a lot of general authorities were talking along these lines back pre1950s, but it was after Joseph Fielding Smith and Bruce Armand Conkey, and I kind of in my head was thinking correlation when they really tightened the screws and became more term Mormonism and a lot more Protestant. And we've kind of lost some of that is what I heard them say.

John Dehlin [00:18:09] So in some ways, he's basically reaching into our historical past to find maybe more conciliatory doctrines so that we can feel comfortable about shifting from where we are now. It's not so much a divergence, but a return to what many have taught previously.

Carey Foushee [00:18:29] Oh, yeah, jump in there. I think that's Terrell Gibbons work, you know, in his other books to wrestling the angel and stuff. He doesn't just go back to the Mormon restoration. He's going back to the early church.

John Dehlin [00:18:44] Yeah, yeah.

Carey Foushee [00:18:45] Always pulling on those threads. But they're always just seeds out there. It's not, you know, I mean, there's probably a lot of seeds. There's probably a lot of different ways you can. You can do that. But that's his work. Right. He kind of goes in there and he's like. And I think even in the. I haven't read their new book, but they alluded to it that, you know, they went and looked at the different stuff path that the western and the eastern Christian churches take. And they're saying, oh, we're seeing all this emphasis that we. That, you know, Mormonism kind of more aligns with in the eastern part of the thing, you know, is that the restoration isn't just a restoration of this authority, power. They're trying to emphasize the restoration of our ideas, of our theology.

Scott Turley [00:19:25] Right.

Carey Foushee [00:19:27] You know, and in some ways, I don't know that that's as sexy of an idea. You know, the place wasn't very packed. I mean, there was probably a quarter of the chapel field. My brother, actually. My brother.

John Dehlin [00:19:44] A quarter. So like 50 people? 800 people?

Carey Foushee [00:19:50] Yeah, 50 to 60 people.

John Dehlin [00:19:52] Yeah.

Carey Foushee [00:19:54] You know, so you could kind of spread out wherever you wanted. I mean, you know, there was Maybe there were 60, 70 people. Maybe, maybe, you know, it was not full I went in there like, oh, it's just gonna be packed, you know, because for me, it's like, oh, the Givens are coming. And I drove 35 minutes. You know, it's in Queen Creek, and I'm in Mesa. So, you know, I drove 35 minutes to go see it. And I know Scott comes from Tempe, so he's coming that far, too. My brother is in the stake. My sister's in that stake. They hadn't even heard of it.

John Dehlin [00:20:31] Yeah. Okay, so that's interesting. Well, before we talk about all that, Carrie, what do you want to add? You attended, so what do you want to add to what you heard the Givens teach that you found meaningful or noteworthy?

Scott Turley [00:20:49] Yeah,

Carey Foushee [00:20:53] it wasn't most. Some of it wasn't new to me. Like, the eternal progression through the kingdoms wasn't new to me, but I actually went with. I brought somebody with me that lives right by me, and it was completely new to him. So, you know, I could talk about that later about his kind of.

John Dehlin [00:21:12] Yeah, we'll talk about that in a second. But. Anything else? Just about what they said that Scott didn't cover. That you found noteworthy.

Carey Foushee [00:21:19] One thing, too, is a lot of what they're redefining is that that idea of instead of sin, it's more about weakness.

Scott Turley [00:21:26] Right.

Carey Foushee [00:21:27] It's kind of. Instead, they're seeing some of. Like. They even mentioned Royal Skousen some of the new interpretations or that, you know, he'll. You know, Royal Skousen has been tracking the different translations of the Book of Mormon, the different versions of it, and going back to the original manuscript. And so sometimes there's words changing. And he brought that up, you know, that we seem to always kind of want to redefine things as sin rather than leaving these words as woundedness or weakness.

Carey Foushee [00:22:00] But it's a very fine theological point, the difference, you know, in some sense, I think, to the average Chapel of Mormon, you're just gonna be like, what? It doesn't make any difference. But they're kind of building this. The ideas that they're talking about.

Carey Foushee [00:22:16] It does make a difference. You know, it does have impact, and that's what they're. They seem to be focusing on. I almost felt like it was a restoration of the restoration. Right. You're kind of going back and trying to restore those. Those original ideas and say, you know, this stuff matters, you know, that we don't believe in original sin.

Carey Foushee [00:22:35] I don't know that they brought that up in the Fireside, but it is in his book. And you Know, he'll focus on what that even means, you know, so they have. They've got to do education first to explain what that means before you can say, why is it that we don't believe in it? And I think what the givens are getting to is, like, these distinctions, these theological distinctions in early Mormonism are important, and we need to kind of emphasize those again.

John Dehlin [00:23:03] I love it. Okay, so let's do this. Scott, tell us what dog you have in this hunt, so to speak. Can you talk to us about your. Whatever you're comfortable sharing about your personal approach to Mormonism or your framework within Mormonism and what the givens work means to you personally?

Scott Turley [00:23:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:30] I mean, even a little bit about your story.

Scott Turley [00:23:32] Sure, sure. No, I mean, I grew up in a fairly marginal family in terms of just a dad who had trouble keeping a job. You know, parents who struggled in a lot of different ways. They didn't have a lot of friends. They liked to just stay home.

Scott Turley [00:23:53] They struggle socially. And the church for them meant everything. Right. They went to every church activity. We had a lot of support from the ward in terms of financial support. You know, they. They were all in on home teaching and visiting teaching. But it was a. It was kind of a way of living Mormonism that was. I kind of looking back especially, it was a little bit dead for them. I mean, it was. It was good in that it gave him some structure, it gave him some survival, and it gave him a network.

Scott Turley [00:24:24] But it was just about, you know, if I get my home teaching done, if I go to church every Sunday, I'm done. I made it right. That's salvation. Right. I got my. I baptized all four of my kids. I got my son to the priesthood, and they kind of went through all the check boxes, right? So that's kind of how I grew up, is that for them, as long as they did those things, they were good and that's all they did. Right.

Scott Turley [00:24:50] And kind of growing up and I looked at the mission, too, and I struggled a lot as a kid. It was tough. I had a lot of my own issues. Depression. I had a lot of anxiety and a lot of that, too. I could see Mormonism at the time as both kind of salvation as well as it was like, saving me from a lot of different things. There's also, like, brutal in that. I was. I constantly felt like I was not good enough. I constantly felt like the. The weight of sin, right, was just a presence in my life. And I never felt good enough.

Scott Turley [00:25:30] I never felt worthy. I always, like, I took the sacrament, and I passed it and blessed it, but I never felt like I was doing it worthily. And I didn't have trust. I didn't have good relationships with bishops. I. I think they all meant well, but I just. It was kind of a scary, this judge in Israel kind of concept. I just. It was hard for me at the time, but the mission, you know, I felt like the mission was a way for me to really get my life together. And it was for me, it was life changing.

Scott Turley [00:25:58] And I came back like, on fire, and I was all in on Mormonism. But, you know, I. Again, I have influences. I've had a lot of influences outside of the church. And the main thing for me just kind of growing up is I had a lot of good things and bad things in Mormonism in my life, but I had a lot of really good things and maybe not so good things outside of Mormonism.

Scott Turley [00:26:20] I've always saw these lights outside. So my two older sisters were very steeped in feminism, and they were very liberal from early on. They both went up to BYU and really struggled from an early age, much earlier than I did with Mormonism, very upfront and. But they also, they were very much into arts, and they were getting me exposure, getting me to theater, to art and music and different things. And there was this whole world that I saw outside of Mormonism that I found beautiful and full of lights. So I always had that. And so.

Scott Turley [00:26:58] And so that's kind of what I was talking about. And so my sister sent me a link to Mormon stories. And so I started listening, and I just started seeing these perspectives from anti Mormon folks or from nuanced Mormon folks or liberal Mormons and feminism. And, you know, your world starts expanding, your thought process starts expanding. So for me, it wasn't.

Scott Turley [00:27:24] So there was a mix. There was a light out that I was just following this light. But it was also. There's certain things in my life that just wasn't. It just wasn't. Mormonism wasn't always the solution for. And I needed to find different ways to frame it. Like, I struggled a lot just being like that whole perfectionism kind of thing, right? Or okay, you know, I see bishops, I see stake presidents. I want to be like them. I got to home teach every month. I got to do my calling, like 110%. And it was just really stressful and I. Anxiety and stress. That's. That's kind of part of my personality to begin with.

Scott Turley [00:28:02] And so just when I saw these other approaches, hey, you know, I can relax. There's grace. Like, without a knower, there's grace. There's. You know, by the way, Joseph Smith had his own flaws. Right. You know, like, he had his own mistakes. So these great people I've been putting up on a pedestal aren't always that great either. So. Right. I can kind of take it easy on myself.

Scott Turley [00:28:27] So it's kind of a complicated story, but that's the essence of it. And so anytime when I hear a message like the Givens is like a Christ who heals, that just speaks to me, like, at a deep, deep level. And it allows me to really like, hey, you know, this is Mormonism. This is how Mormonism really could and should be, and this is how I can live it right. In my personal life, and this is how I can, like, teach it to my kids as well. So, I mean, I think that's basically the essence of it.

John Dehlin [00:28:58] So it sounds like you've had a textured perspective to the church, like probably all of us have in different ways, but that at different times, you've either questioned or struggled or not felt completely edified by what Mormon doctrine or theology or practices had to offer. And so for you, the Givens is sort of present a brand or a form or a look at Mormonism that feels more hopeful, that feels more healing, that is more edifying to you than maybe Bruce R. McConkie, Joseph Fielding Smith correlated CES, historical Mormonism. Is that right?

Scott Turley [00:29:42] Yeah, definitely.

John Dehlin [00:29:43] Okay. And so for you, are the givens an important part of what allows you to kind of feel good about staying engaged with the church?

Scott Turley [00:29:52] Yeah, I mean, and yeah, I think so.

Carey Foushee [00:29:55] Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Turley [00:29:57] I mean, there's a lot more to it, but definitely that this is a brand of Mormonism that I really love. I think I'm going to. I mean, I was never. I've never really contemplated leaving the church. Right. So my roots in.

John Dehlin [00:30:11] You never had a faith crisis that challenged your commitment to the church?

Scott Turley [00:30:15] No, no. I mean, no, I mean, because like I said, it's. There's a lot of parts of Mormonism that have been life saving and there's a lot of stuff, a lot of this stuff that the Givens are bringing up I found in other ways. Right. Just that whole, you know, just this network, this community, this opportunity to really engage. And some of this stuff came up too, in their crucible of doubt. Right. Of just kind of be an opportunity to serve others as other people served me when I was a kid, kind of struggling because there were people in my life through the Mormon, through my wards and the young men, presidents and seminary teachers. And like I said, there was a mixed bag. There are some things that were kind of brutal, but on the whole, I think I gained a lot more out of it than was harmful.

John Dehlin [00:31:06] Got it. Okay, so that's great, Kerry. What's your dog in the hunt?

Carey Foushee [00:31:14] Yeah, I mean, I resonate a lot with Scott saying, you know, one interesting thing that the friend I brought, you know, he was like. After me and him were talking and he was like, saying, you mean you can progress through the kingdoms? You know, it's like, I'm like, you. The next day, I talking to him, I said, you never heard that before?

John Dehlin [00:31:36] Forth.

Carey Foushee [00:31:37] And he's like, no. You know, he went in and he was talking with his bishop, apparently, and he went and told his bishop, and he was like, the bishop's like, yeah, we really don't know what goes on, you know, what exactly it's gonna be like, you know, in the afterlife or whatever. And so he felt a little, you know, permission to kind of believe in that idea. And I was like, you never even heard that or thought, you know, I sometimes will forget, you know, different perspectives, how different they can be.

Carey Foushee [00:32:10] And then he said to me, what. How do you know what is true? You know, how do I know what to believe if I can believe that versus believe that? You know, because he's. So some of it becomes about an authority thing. And I think the givens, because they.

Carey Foushee [00:32:25] Because they approach it through an academic kind of lens, right? They're going into research. They're telling you what. What the translation of this Greek meant, you know, in the original thing. And. And, you know, they do their research and they're talking about the early church fathers and everything. So they're giving you, you know, some kind of ground to base these ideas on. But in the end, if you're. It's still about authority, you know, whether you're willing to listen to.

John Dehlin [00:32:53] Yeah, we're gonna. We're gonna cover that. But I'm just trying to get a sense for why you care. You personally. Why does Kerry care? Is this just fun intellectual? Are you, like, in the church? Are you, like, trying to find reasons to stay? Is there work meaningfully, personally to you? If so, why?

Carey Foushee [00:33:12] Well, because. Yeah, I'm. I don't. You know, I've come to a point where I don't need. I don't have to have it all defined for me, right? But I am staying and I am trying to. To make sense of Mormonism in my real life, you know, and make it. Make it help me with my life and my wife and my kids and you know, going to church and dealing with things. And there came a point in time where, you know, the very, I don't know, classic story, rigid story, kind of orthodoxy kind of broke. Right. And I was left almost with nothing. And so I started to become aware that there were other people with other ideas, you know, from all kinds of different.

Carey Foushee [00:34:04] I wasn't aware of sunstone, of dialogue, of these, you know, and now there's even more, right, The Maxwell Institute, all these different kinds of ideas and reading and you know, it's like when I read, when I read Rough Stone Rolling, I kind of both fell in love with Joseph Smith again and. But I got a sense of his vision. And yet there were times where I still kind of felt like there were things where I'm like, well, he's, he's clearly, you know, crazy here or he's just the normal, you know, weaknesses of people. You know, I kind of had judgments of him, but I also was inspired and that's how I've just kept going.

Carey Foushee [00:34:47] So this kind of thing for me is a way to, you know, it's a watering hole. It's a way to kind of go and you know, I go to these things occasionally and be with people that are like minded that, that are both, you know, involved in Mormonism. But it doesn't have to be that the traditional understanding, you know, they're willing to entertain new ideas.

Carey Foushee [00:35:14] So that's, you know, I go because it uplifts me and I'm interested in learning, you know, I'm interested in learning about history and anthology.

John Dehlin [00:35:25] Okay, so you're. Yeah, in some sense it's similar, it's similar to Scott, you're looking for, you're trying to hang on, you're hanging on, you're committed, you're in at some level and you're looking for additional perspective or nourishment that can help you feel better about your engagement. Right, right, right.

Carey Foushee [00:35:46] And that would be, that would be why I do, why I go home teaching. That's why I go to church. Is it a sense, I mean the same answer to all of those things. I don't do most of. I don't really do things out of. I'm obligated otherwise I'm going to, you know, burn or I do it out a sense of fear, you know, I'm probably, and I say I generally I'm not that awesome. Right. I probably still do some things out of fear or trying to please others or things but relatively speaking, it's a lot less. Mostly what I'm doing and serving. It feels more authentic to me.

John Dehlin [00:36:24] Yeah, got it. Okay. Let me just say as a side note, that I've tried multiple times over the past couple years to get the Givens to come on Mormon stories, and they continue to decline. So I'm only saying that not to criticize them, but to let people know that it may be weird that we're talking about their firesides in their books and they're not here for now. It's because I can't get them to come on. Now, I did write Fiona back in 2015 and asked her if she'd come on Mormon stories, and she said something interesting. She said, our primary concern is the possible misperception that we may be setting ourselves up as faith crisis gurus, which we most certainly are not.

John Dehlin [00:37:10] Also, their publicist apparently has me on an email list, and when they publicize this new book, I volunteered to interview them because their publicist reached out to me. And of course, when I said, yeah, I'll do it, bring them on. I've heard nothing back yet, so I hope the Givens will be willing to come back on Mormon stories. We feel like we not only have a lot of people that could benefit from what they have to say or who care about what they have to say, but also we feel like we've kind of helped help them get visibility, and we would just appreciate it if they didn't just kind of, now that they're doing what they're doing, kind of ignore and forget us.

John Dehlin [00:37:49] But I just wanted to make sure everyone understands that I want the Givens here speaking for themselves, and I'm going to do everything I can to make that happen. But having said that, do you, either of you, have a reaction to this idea that Fiona would say that she doesn't want a perception that they're setting themselves up as faith crisis gurus? My reaction was, isn't that exactly what they are? Scott, what would your reaction be to that?

Who Is the Audience for Neo-Apologetics?

Scott Turley [00:38:16] I'm not sure. I definitely saw the crucible of doubt as that, for sure. I kind of feel like this book and this Fireside was more directed at the church. Wholly like, hey, this is theology gurus, right?

John Dehlin [00:38:32] Theology gurus.

Scott Turley [00:38:33] Yes, yes, yes. Like, they're saying they're pulling out these really beautiful parts of Mormonism with the idea of trying to get the broader church community to really respond, I think. But for sure, that crucible of doubt was directed right toward faith crisis. Okay, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:50] So they're so, so this is more a theological act than a faith crisis act.

Scott Turley [00:38:55] I mean, that's my interpretation.

John Dehlin [00:38:56] Okay. Yeah, well, that matters. You were there, right? And you're someone who cares. Kerry, do you have anything to add or not?

Carey Foushee [00:39:05] No, I guess I agree again with Scott. You know.

John Dehlin [00:39:07] Okay, that's fine. That's fine. All right, so let's get into some of the issues or concerns that people have expressed. These are going to be obvious things, and they're going to be things that others. That others are going to know. We want to invite anyone who's listening live to please post your questions or comments about what they've heard so far.

John Dehlin [00:39:34] I'll just read a couple comments that have been listed so far. So Kiersey writes, and these are just reactions to what you two gentlemen have already said. So Kathleen wrote the word, single word, spin. I don't want you to respond to that yet, but I want to just start giving what some of the listeners have said so that we can have them in our minds as we talk about this. So Kathleen wrote Spin. I'm guessing that she's saying that the givenses are trying to spin Mormonism.

John Dehlin [00:40:06] Kjersi wrote, mormonism promotes perfection and routine, which breeds depression. So I think Kjersi's responding, Scott, to some of the things that you wrote about how perfectionism can get you down and the high standards and maybe even the theology that some of the more harsh or rigid apostles may have advanced over the years can lead people just to feel really down. And it sounds like the givenses are trying to promote a theology in a gospel that's more hopeful, that's more healing, to make people feel great about the gospel instead of just beat down and depressed about the gospel. And I'm guessing that, you know, you've already said, Scott, that that's kind of what it means to you, right?

Scott Turley [00:40:52] Yeah. Yep, for sure.

John Dehlin [00:40:54] Clark wrote, when my shelf broke and the profit pedestal came down, so did that perfection and guilt complex. So Clark is basically echoing what you, Scott, and what Kiersey have also said. David writes, I fully support the effort to change institutional Mormonism, but I really struggle with the message that the givenses and others push. To me, it feels they are representing a version of Mormonism, that it's simply not the givens version of Mormonism is often foreign to what is being taught by the 12. Okay, so let's jump into that really quick. So what would. Kerry, we'll start with you this time. So you're not always.

Authority, Institutional Church, and Listener Comments

John Dehlin [00:41:34] Me too. Ing, Scott, you know, Shannon wrote on the Shannon wrote on Facebook, I love these thoughts and ideas. If only the quorum of the 12 taught the same. So I have two questions for Carrie and then Scott. Who are the givenses to be theologizing?

John Dehlin [00:41:50] Right. What gives them authority and power to even think that they can be opining on theology? And I don't mean that in a challenging, negative way. I mean, I think there's a healthy discussion about where theology comes from and whose right is it to theologize. Right. So don't. Don't take this as me questioning them or criticizing them. I think it's a valid question. Who are the givens is to be theologizing. And if this isn't coming from the 12, does it matter? Kerry, what's your reaction? And then we'll get Scott's.

Carey Foushee [00:42:26] You know, I mean, that's. That's kind of what I was alluding to with my friend, too, is kind of. It's about authority. You know, what's about authority? Right. Yeah, the theology versus doctrine. And I think that's kind of where we've.

Carey Foushee [00:42:42] Even the givens at the fireside at the end, they had a Q and A. And he did say, you know, what we're teaching here, you know, in response to somebody asking a question, is we don't speak with authority. You know, they're not trying to deliver it with, you know, thus saith the Lord or something like that. You know, it's about persuasion. You know, either you're going, and you're either gonna listen and, you know their arguments and go and verify them. You know, in terms of the act, it's more of an academic type of situation. You know, you're either gonna be persuaded by their arguments and their evidence, or you're not.

Carey Foushee [00:43:22] And the hard thing with, you know, coming out of a different paradigm of Mormonism is you're. You're normally always, you know, this is what I took out of it. And I will say that, you know, lots of people take different things out of even the Church. There's not just one version of things, but there do seem to be prominent versions that we all kind of glum to.

Carey Foushee [00:43:49] And, you know, I feel like I was a quote, unquote, victim of that, too. You know, I grew up with things now that I look back on and say, oh, man, that maybe that's why that hurt me in my life and maybe why that made me so unhappy. You know, I'm glad I learned something new and better about it now.

John Dehlin [00:44:10] So it sounds like you're saying theology can be this marketplace of ideas where people shouldn't speak for authority, speak with authority, because they'll get in trouble. But why can't. Why can't the church be this place where people have different private perspectives about theology? And those who like and benefit from it can enjoy it, and those who don't like or benefit from it can believe what they want to believe. Is that kind of what you're saying?

Carey Foushee [00:44:36] Yeah, I think that's actually what the church is, you know, to some extent.

John Dehlin [00:44:39] Okay.

Carey Foushee [00:44:40] I think there is a part of that going on. We've just. People don't feel quite as open and free about that. I think, you know, you go back correlation or just that, you know, what happened. I mean, they're not writing books on the New Testament anymore. You know, I do think there's starting to be a separation between the scholars and the general authorities, the administrators of the church. And I know they still, you know, have messages to speak about the gospel and Christ and stuff like that. But I do see a difference in

John Dehlin [00:45:15] who's not writing books on Christ any or

Carey Foushee [00:45:19] unlike Jesus the Christ, like Talmage or Mormon doctrine. You know, we're not seeing those type of books come out from the 12. We're seeing those kind of come out through.

John Dehlin [00:45:28] Okay, all right.

Carey Foushee [00:45:29] Through BYU channels through more of experts.

John Dehlin [00:45:32] Got it. Scott, what's your react. What's your reaction to the questions? Who are the givens is to be theologizing and does it matter if it's not coming through the 12?

Scott Turley [00:45:42] Yeah, I mean, like Kerry said, they were upfront with that. And the fireside, they said, hey, we don't speak for the church. These are our opinions only. And you hear people say that all like. And I think that's very common, too.

Scott Turley [00:45:55] You do hear people say, hey in Sunday school. Say, hey, this is a doctrine according to me. Right. You hear those kind of disqualifiers quite often. But I will say, though, there was a lot of this stuff I would challenge is very core to the gospel, like a Christ who heals. That whole concept of a healing Christ. I've heard a lot on a local level, especially, like where bishops talk about, hey, you can use grace and the atonement to heal you from your whatever pain or damage. I think that's very core to the gospel. And I mean, there are some things that I haven't heard, like officially, especially like progression through kingdoms. I think that was fairly controversial.

John Dehlin [00:46:38] My brother was taught that doctrine by his mission president back in the. In the mid-80s.

Scott Turley [00:46:44] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:46:44] But it was taught as kind of the secret Thing that only those in the know could talk about. And you almost got this sense that there were brethren who believed it. But if they taught that to the general membership, members wouldn't take repentance seriously in this life because. Because then they would just logically conclude, well, I can have fun in this life because I can always progress in the next life.

Scott Turley [00:47:07] Right, Right. Yeah, I can kind of see that thinking, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Carey Foushee [00:47:11] So.

Scott Turley [00:47:12] So I. So, yeah, I definitely don't believe they are speaking for the church officially. These are their ideas, their opinions, and they're. But they're found, they're. They're trying to find the foundation within scripture. They quote Book of Mormon, they quote Pro Great Price and Doctrine and Covenants and other general authorities. Right. They quoted Brigham Young, even Joseph Smith and various others in the Fireside. So I think they're trying to find legitimate grounds to offer these ideas with the recognition that it's a little bit off from the.

John Dehlin [00:47:48] But to what end? To what end? What do you think? I mean, here's me guessing. My guess is they would hope that, number one, a bunch of members who might feel shame, feel sad about the gospel would no longer live and dwell in shame. I'm guessing that that's part of their motivation. And then a second part of their motivation is this hope that if enough people talk about it, and I got this phrase from the ATF group, this idea of trickle up theology, that if there's enough scholars and lay members who talk about this stuff that the general authorities will hear it and start to talk about it more. Because I don't think they're just writing this book and doing, doing these firesides just to pontificate. Right.

Scott Turley [00:48:33] No, I agree with that. I agree with that totally. And I think they mentioned too that a lot of this stuff is not necessarily official doctrine that they're countering. A lot of it's just deeply embedded in the culture. And you could say that the general authorities and correlation and these manuals are a big driver of that culture of sin. And a lot of that is Protestantism. That kind of leaked in. But a lot is embedded into culture. And I think they're really trying, like you said, they're trying to change the culture of the church. I think that's their main drive.

John Dehlin [00:49:02] That question of what's the difference between doctrine and culture. Right. Is a huge. No, no one knows the answer. I would argue there's no such thing as Mormon doctrine. That really there's just a bunch of things said and things written and interpretations over the years. And what's actually officially doctrine.

Scott Turley [00:49:20] Right.

John Dehlin [00:49:21] I mean, we don't even know. I'm gonna. So I'm gonna riff up. So this idea that Kerry advanced about marketplace of ideas. I'm gonna, I'm gonna read something that Brittany wrote in our comments, and then I'm gonna, I'm gonna talk about Denver suffer for a bit. So Brittany writes, I think that Fiona and Terrell are very aware that they need to be careful with their image the second that they are seen as a threat.

John Dehlin [00:49:43] This is, to Kerry's point about authority. They will be unable to reach those who need it most. Posturing matters, unfortunately, when it comes to things like apostasy, because they do call out problems in church theology. And in a sense, that was my reaction. They are absolutely contradicting teachings that Boyd K. Packer or some of the more harsh apostles over the years. Joseph Fielding Smith. I'm sure we could find examples in modern apostles. And really what we're really talking about is outlined in the Book of Mormon. The there's mercy and grace that's a value in the Book of Mormon, and then there's justice. And you really can't ever eliminate both.

John Dehlin [00:50:26] And so it's always going to be just this tug of war where we're trying to find the right harmony of justice so that people take things seriously and are held accountable. But mercy, so that people feel hopeful and don't get too beat down and discouraged. And all they're basically trying to do is is kind of put their thumb on the scales of mercy a little bit more so that people feel hopeful and optimistic.

John Dehlin [00:50:50] But what they have to be careful of is what's the difference between the Gibbons and Denver Snuffer? Denver Snuffer is simply just picking interpretations of the Book of Mormon or of things Joseph Smith said and advancing his theology. Right. And for him, I guess the difference might be that he's claiming to have direct authority, direct communication, communication with Christ. And that's going to be immediately seen as threatening by the brethren. But he's also encouraging members to gain a lot of individual authority in terms of their relationship with Christ to kind of cut out the brethren as the middleman between their relationship with Christ and themselves.

John Dehlin [00:51:30] But what do you guys think about the fact that the Givens need to be careful and that this is sort of dicey business? Scott, we'll have you answer that one first. And then Kerry, if you have anything

Scott Turley [00:51:43] to add I don't know about, I'm hopeful that they don't, that that's not true because I feel like this is hard for me to know because in my position, my perspective, I feel like what they're offering is well within the broad hint of Mormonism, as far as I can see it.

John Dehlin [00:52:06] Yeah, I think so, too.

Scott Turley [00:52:07] I don't think they're really trying and I think what they're doing fundamentally is different than what I know of Denver Snuffer doing because they're, they're in the church. They're, they're, they're going, they're, they're. I don't know what their callings are, assuming they have callings. They're in their word, they're participating and they're really pointing. They're trying to build up the church itself. Right there. It's yes, we have our individual revelation, we have our individual perspective and opportunities, needs to learn and get these insights and they're offering theirs. Right. They're publishing books, but they're also, they're also very loyal, as far as I can tell, to the church, the institution itself.

Scott Turley [00:52:45] They're really pointing people to the church as well. Right. And they're quoting current general authorities. I think they quoted Elder Uchtdorf in the Fireside and things like that. So they're pointing us to the church. Right. And I don't ever see them attest the church directly. I could see them kind of questioning and criticizing the culture, as I said earlier. And maybe you could point out disagreements with, between what they were saying and specific talks, like you said. Maybe you can point out a quote, President Packer's talk, but they don't call it out directly. Right. They're just offering. They're really, it's very positive way of doing it. They're finding quotes and scriptures and general authorities they agree with and they're pointing everybody that direction.

John Dehlin [00:53:36] Yeah, it's very, it's very strategic and smart and diplomatic, which to their credit, that's the way you, that's the way you survive. I, but, but I think what some of our listeners are saying is they're walking a tightrope a little bit because they want to, they want to try and encourage a different approach to theology, but they have to be careful not to step across lines that make the brethren feel challenged or contradicted. I think that's true. Michael writes that the institutional church isn't denouncing the Givens says something that's true. The fact that their book is published by Desiree book says a lot. And the fact that they're allowed to run around and go to various chapels and give these firesides speaks volumes.

Scott Turley [00:54:26] Right, right.

John Dehlin [00:54:27] So. So it seems like they're pretty. Pretty operating on pretty safe territory. My next question is. Well, you know, so recently, you know, Ballard said some things that were kind of really, you know, shook some people up. So he basically made that point that. That we may be general authorities, but we're not authorities on all things, and that we need to find a place for LGBT brothers and sisters. Some looked at those comments as signs of hope.

John Dehlin [00:55:00] Others said that's doublespeak, that, yeah, we're gonna have these awful LGBT policies that cause kids to kill themselves, but the church doesn't wanna look like they're anti lgbt, so occasionally they'll make positive LGBT comments, and that way they can sort of speak to both sides of the audience. Kerry, what do you think about this idea that the church kind of the brethren are going to keep toeing the conservative line, and that's what General Conference is. And in that way, they're going to shore up their base, but then as a tactic, they're using the givenses to go around sort of in private, sort of in this rifle way, to sort of speak to the liberals, speak to the progressives, so that they can sort of have their cake and eat it too.

John Dehlin [00:55:44] They could be orthodox, they could be fundamentalists, they could be more justice warriors, but at the same time, have the givens is out there to kind of COVID the bases and reach out to those who need a different message. And is that bad? What do you think about that, Kerry?

Carey Foushee [00:56:02] That sounds very kind of conspiratorial to me. Like, it's. It's too well organized of a thing. You know, I see it more. I see diversity within the upper leadership, except, you know, in certain ways and policies. You know, they all come together and, you know, I don't know, maybe it's a little bit of all those. Maybe all that could be true at some sense, because it's just something always in motion. I mean, no matter what, what he said is hopeful, but maybe that hope won't reach the light of day. You know, maybe there'll be something, somebody else, some other thing that comes along and squashes it. But, you know, as long as you think what he said was honest, you know, he's trying to push it that way. He's trying to build a base or build, you know, momentum in that. And I think there's a lot of things.

John Dehlin [00:57:04] You mean, Ballard. Yeah, yeah. So you're saying there's. That not all the brethren are in agreement. I think we know that's true. I think that the apostles themselves disagree and have different approaches. And then instead of it being viewed in some Machiavellian way where, like, the brethren are trying to be dishonest, what we're seeing is different apostles or different wings of the church institution sponsoring different approaches, so that in the church there can actually be a diversity of thought and a perspective. Is that what you're saying?

Carey Foushee [00:57:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:39] That's cool. Scott, what would you add?

Scott Turley [00:57:43] I tend to agree with that. I think. I don't get the sense that the Givens are acting on behest of a direct kind of coordinated effort with general authorities. I kind of feel like they're. Who knows? But I just kind of took it as they're being honest and authentic. And I think Ballard is being honest and authentic. And I think others are being honest and authentic maybe in ways others don't like. So I think there is probably. I agree. I think there's a lot of diversity of opinion, and I think the church is really trying to work through this in an official way. Right. We get these official statements, but, you know, you see the church evolve over time in a lot of different ways, and I think officially you're going to see that. I love it.

Critiquing the Givens Approach and Tactics

John Dehlin [00:58:24] Let me ask you guys specifically about the Givens tactics. And this speaks to this issue of Neo Apologetics. Nick writes, the Givens rationalize and distract from the falsehoods using intellectualism and flowery words. What do you guys think about that? When I read the God who Weeps, there was a part of me that's like, oh, if we can just quote enough poets and philosophers, we can sort of put lipstick on a pig. And I don't. And I don't mean that. That's my view. I'm just saying that's a point of view.

John Dehlin [00:59:00] When I interviewed Tova Mirvis recently, an ex Orthodox Jew, she defined apologetics as helping people feel good about things they don't feel good about. And what do you guys think about that argument that the Givens tactic is to use Greek, to use French, to use philosophy, to use poetry and literature just as a way to sort of have these mellifluous words that make us feel better? And in reality, it's just an apologetic approach to make us feel good about something that we. We maybe shouldn't feel good about? Scott, why don't you start on that one?

Scott Turley [00:59:36] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:59:37] I mean, is there something to that? Is there nothing to that from your point of view?

Carey Foushee [00:59:42] There's probably.

Scott Turley [00:59:43] Perhaps there's something to that. I think, though, for me at least, first of all, I love poetry, I love theology, I love academics. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I think there's a lot of beauty and depth, and that's what we're all. That's what we all should be trying to do, right? Like dig in and really appreciate beauty and poetry and theology.

Scott Turley [01:00:05] So I think. And this is the givens is. That's their whole life, that's their career, that's what they do, that's their expertise. So I don't expect anything else from them. I also think the church is this mess, like everything, the world, all of its institutions, every individual. We're all messy. We have beauty, we have darkness, we have shadows, we have struggles, we have sin. And we hurt each other in all kinds of ways. I mean, that's just the way life is. And so I know, sure, there's gonna be institutions are really. That probably shouldn't exist, and we should shut them down. I don't think the Church.

Scott Turley [01:00:45] I don't think the Mormon Church is like that. It's just. I think it's sincere and it's trying to do good. And when I read about Joseph Smith's biographies and like, Rustin Rowling, that's how I see his life as. These people with whom have this inner sense of goodness mostly are trying to build things up, and there's all these flaws and rough people in it and doing things that hurts people. I think on the whole, we're just trying to make it better and grow it and make it more. Closer to the way God would want it to be. Right. So that's how I take it. Yeah. So there is. There is pig kind of stuff, and there's lipstick on pig stuff.

Carey Foushee [01:01:26] Stuff in there.

Scott Turley [01:01:26] But that's way too simple.

John Dehlin [01:01:30] Yeah. You're saying, what's wrong with poetry and literature? Poetry and literature are awesome. Exactly.

Scott Turley [01:01:35] Right?

John Dehlin [01:01:36] That's like, good stuff. Carrie, what would you add to anything to what Scott said?

Carey Foushee [01:01:40] Yeah, so it's like. As opposed to what? You know, it's like if I quote Billy Corgan, you know, it's like, despite all my rage, I'm still just a rat in a cage.

Scott Turley [01:01:50] I mean, I.

Carey Foushee [01:01:52] It's. Even if. And I have spent years out of the church, like, 21 to 26, you know, listening, just living a different life, and you still are listening to philosophy, poetry, music, movies, you know, and, I mean, that's what we want to say on Mormon stories, right? Is that you can be atheist, ex Mormon, all that, and you still have values and ethics and you live a good life and, and you argue for things that matter. Women's rights, feminism, all these great things that we all share and we're persuaded with those things through the arts and through literature, through the whole thing. And so how do we ever decide on a message?

Carey Foushee [01:02:41] I guess that's going back to Christianity. That's the fruits know, are these things creating fruits in my life, you know, in the here and the now that, that enable me to, to feel like it's working, right? To feel like this is real and it's not just another iteration of falsehoods. And you know, I'm constantly, you know, at times going through that where I learn or I redefine different areas of my life. But yeah, it's kind of been a hard struggle at some times over these last six, seven years, you know, in particular down this road. But I have found, I found it worth it and illuminating at times. And so, yeah, you know, I'm enjoying the journey.

John Dehlin [01:03:34] You're bearing a new order Mormon testimony, Kerry. That's what you're doing. I love it. Megan writes for me. I listen to the givens to improve myself, to find a better way to be a Christian, one of love and inclusion. I listen to the GA's for similar messages. When I find messages that don't promote that, I move on. Some gas do talk with this type of message on grace, doubt, etc. And some don't. Is that good stuff? You guys like that?

Scott Turley [01:04:05] Yep, totally.

John Dehlin [01:04:07] Okay, so Kent writes, I wonder, I do wonder if neo apologetics is a long term answer for people throughout their lives. I think for many it's hard for them to straddle the middle view, the middle of road view of Mormonism for an entire lifetime. It appears that eventually you're all in that church is the one and only or completely out you're all in that the church is the one and only or completely out. Okay, this is great, Kerry. I'll ask you then. Scott. So I've been talking forever about this idea of Reformed Judaism that Judaism had to face modernity and science and literalism and historicity 200 years ago, 100 years ago, 50 years ago, and they came up with Reformed Judaism, which now has become the largest branch of Mormonism, sorry, of Judaism, which basically says, you know what, believe in God or don't believe in Moses or don't keep kosher or don't obey the Sabbath or don't.

Progressive and New Order Mormonism Today

John Dehlin [01:05:09] It's more about ritual, it's about community, it's about spirituality. Do you guys think that this sort of emerging New Order Mormonism, new wave Mormonism, progressive Mormonism, whatever you want to call it, is it sustainable in the long term for individuals? And it is sustainable within this church as an institution. Kerry, what's your reaction? And then, Scott, I want to hear yours.

Carey Foushee [01:05:35] Yeah, I guess I would think it is. I mean, that's part of, you know, you go back to your comments before. We don't have what is Mormon doctrine? It's kind of hard, right? I mean, that's what was so nice about McConkie and Fielding Smith is like, we could point to it, we could define it, but it gets harder as time goes on and doesn't. By not having that systematic kind of it all written down and all defined. You know, when we say then, then I think that does open the door for having different understandings and beliefs. You know, I think I remember hearing Patrick Mason talk about the truth cart and he would put less things in the truth cartoon versus And I think that's a lot of things.

Carey Foushee [01:06:19] There probably are some things that are harder to move out of that cart, and they might not ever move out of that cart, you know, to where some people are more uncomfortable with that. So you're gonna have to live with a certain tension in that community if you stay. Because, you know, it's hard when you have a different interpretation sometimes to, you know, to coexist and feel like you're, you know, your belief isn't as valid as theirs. So.

John Dehlin [01:06:49] So you're optimistic about New Order Mormonism, Progressive Mormonism?

Carey Foushee [01:06:56] Yeah, I don't think it, you know, in the end, it has to be Mormonism. Right. It's for it to work. And I think that Mormonism itself has enough that it can. That can infuse it and it just feels more what Mormonism is. I mean, a lot of what the Givens talk about, if you went back to your chaplain, you said, oh, they were talking about how God is this really great guy. He's. He's not a mean person. Right. That. That's part of their. Their message too, I guess.

Scott Turley [01:07:23] We didn't cover.

Carey Foushee [01:07:24] But if you went and said that God is loving and he doesn't, you know, he's not there to punish you, everybody would just be shaking their heads. But when you start to look at the theology of it and you go, well, actually, you know, the Protestants, they, you know, and they do use some of the quotes of some. There's some preacher back in the 1800s, 1700s, that has like, you know, you're like a spider to God.

Carey Foushee [01:07:50] Yeah. So they referenced that in their presentation. They have a slide on that, you know, and they're. So what they're restoring or, you know, in a sense is talking about that, that. That goes over really well in the church, in the chapel.

Carey Foushee [01:08:05] Except sometimes we muddle our theology so much that the things we're actually talking about agree with this guy. You know, they agree with the damnation one. So they're trying to illuminate like, no, the restoration means that, you know, we have an embodied. We have a. You know, we're not. A fall is an ascent. You know, if we take those doctrines seriously, then we'll have, you know, we have better results. But in some ways, people don't have to know theology. They know Heavenly Father is a loving God. So.

Carey Foushee [01:08:38] So I don't know. You know, in some ways I could see that the general authorities, you know, they teach God is loving, but then maybe their theology isn't so well defined that they end up contradicting themselves sometimes. Elder Nelson, but, you know, in terms of some of his stuff.

John Dehlin [01:08:54] Right. Scott, what's your answer about your bullishness about progressive New Order Mormonism?

Scott Turley [01:09:01] I don't. I think I want to say I'm optimistic, although I do understand that's difficult. So I. There are times at church on Sunday where I just don't feel like it's really tough to kind of really express myself fully and authentically. And it's good. I could understand that challenge.

Scott Turley [01:09:23] But I'm hopeful and I guess I'm hopefully optimistic that there is. And I really see the Catholicism, what the Catholic Church does. And I'm not an expert on all these different churches, but I see the Catholic Church, they have a pope, they have this correlated Catholicism, but they also have liberalism in Catholicism. There's these different sects and stuff all thriving in the church. And I kind of see that as a model that I hope Mormonism can get to, where you do have a conservative branch, you have a liberal branch, and they're kind of working together and working off each other, and you still have the authority structure and the hierarchy, which I feel is important for an organization to work, but it holds these two branches intention.

Scott Turley [01:10:10] I kind of feel like we used to have that more because we had Hubie Brown and other liberal Mormons in leadership positions kind of in tension with the more conservative aspect. So for some reason, we've kind of lost some of that. And I feel like it's possible that we'll get that back. I mean, it's hard to know. I could see why People would be negative about it and I could see why people be positive about it. I just. The world is complicated. We're all complicated. It's really, would be really sad to me if we just kicked out all the liberals from the church. That's just not what any church should be doing. So.

John Dehlin [01:10:46] And the fact that, you know, all these people like the Givens are getting book contracts with Deseret Book is a positive sign, right?

Scott Turley [01:10:54] Yeah, for sure. Yes. So, yeah, yeah. And there are, I think more liberal Mormons in leadership, I think, you know, President Uchdorf and others. So yeah, you know, we're all complicated and we're all learning and growing and I think. Yeah, yeah. So hopefully things.

John Dehlin [01:11:12] Let's read a few more comments from our listeners. Kent writes, Bruce R. McConkie took a shot at defining Mormon doctrine and failed. And that's true. The Mormon doctrine is now out of print. So the book that was like defined the Mormonism of my generation has now been mothballed and is out of print. And that really has to be looked at as a rejection by the modern church of Bruce Armaconki Joseph Smith doctrine. Right.

Carey Foushee [01:11:39] I've heard Terrell at the Fireside. He said somebody asked him about that and he said it's not because of lack of sales.

John Dehlin [01:11:48] Yeah, right. Something that, something that Thomas, Thomas wrote in that I think is really interesting to mention. He said before Patrick Mason was here in Arizona a week before the Givens. And it's interesting that both Patrick and the Givens are reaching back to the first century Christianity to define the Restoration today. And that's kind of a sense that I get that we're always continually restoring the Restoration and that we were trying to get prior to kind of the Protestant stuff that was more harsh, maybe Calvinism, I don't know. I'm not a historian or a theologist, but trying to. We have to reach back to a point of time in Christianity where we can sort of validate the approach that we think is useful.

John Dehlin [01:12:39] And I'm gonna also read what Tiani writes. What the Givens are doing is very similar to the Remnant, meaning Denver Snuffer, as far as some of the theology and reinterpretation of Scripture. But the difference is that the Gibbons is don't directly challenge the authority structure, whereas the Remnant movement does. So they're viewed as helping rather than hurting. They toe the line enough to perhaps not get called out on it. That's an interesting point.

John Dehlin [01:13:09] So those are some really good comments from our listeners. Megan writes, the Givens are trying to bring people to Christ without challenging the patriarchal structure. What do you guys think about that? You're always safe if you don't challenge the patriarchy. And is that a good thing? Should they be challenging the patriarchy? Kerry, what do you think? Are you a fan of the patriarch? Are you a fan of the patriarchy, Kerry?

Carey Foushee [01:13:38] No, and I think, you know, sound like an apologist. Right. Because I feel like a lot of that is going away anyhow. To some extent. It's not emphasized. You know, a lot of that is being de Emphasized. And that's. That's kind of how Mormonism works. Right. We just start to de. Emphasize one thing and it kind of falls out of favor rather than, you know, having this big announcement that we're no longer going to speak of it this way. But, you know, you start to see those trends.

Carey Foushee [01:14:09] I. Yeah, I mean, seeing Fiona up there and speak and articulate, you know, if we're just talking patriarchy in terms of, you know, her as a. As a scholar and as a. Just somebody that, you know, you can admire and you recognize how brilliant and she is up there, is to some extent, you know, speaks against the patriarchy when viewed through those kind of old lenses of, you know, the males are the ones, you know, endowed with all the.

Carey Foushee [01:14:47] The intelligence and authority of knowing God and those kinds of things. So, I mean, I would think Fiona just in herself is a symbol against

John Dehlin [01:14:56] that, I have to say. Scott, I want to bring you in, but it's worth noting that the Bobby Givens Gotler. I don't know how to pronounce her last name, but she writes, for what it's worth, as Terrell and Fiona's sister. Guessing she's Terrell's sister, but Fiona's sister in law, I can tell you they're absolutely not acting on the directive of the church, either officially or unofficially. So that's fun to have Terrell's sister kind of opine. Scott, what were you gonna say about the patriarchy?

Scott Turley [01:15:33] Yeah, I think.

John Dehlin [01:15:35] Should they be criticizing the patriarchy or should they be diplomatically working within the patriarchy jerky?

Scott Turley [01:15:39] I think we all have our own roles to play. I was. I had a conversation the other day about Richard Ward. He was talking about if you really want to challenge, I mean, really, you really have to be called to really challenge and advocate for a certain cause. Especially when you're like, the negative. Right. If you're really trying to pose something, you really have to do it with the right spirit. And, you know, if the givens don't feel called to do that. I totally respect what I fully respect what they're doing. I respect what other people are doing who feel called to do otherwise. I think we all have to find our own kind of path. So I definitely am glad that there are people out there challenging the patriarchy. I'll say that I don't necessarily think the givens have to be those people.

John Dehlin [01:16:25] All right, Tiani writes, I agree that the Givenses are honest and authentic. I think they have truly found some aha gems in their research and they're excited about it and want to share it. On the church's end, I think the church is happy to allow, quote, expert apologists to help them any way they can get help, as long as the experts don't directly challenge the authority. The church is happy to let scholarly work express some diverse ideas. Tiana, you're awesome. We need to have you on Mormon stories.

Carey Foushee [01:16:57] There's our woman voice.

Scott Turley [01:16:58] Call her up, get her on.

John Dehlin [01:16:59] I love it. Tiana, if you want to join us, I will actually literally add you to this conversation. So message me if you want to join us. Other women as well. Bobby, if you want to join us and speak on behalf of the Givenses or on behalf of yourself, just message me on Facebook and I'll add you to this, to this conference call. Really quickly. There was a point that was made again on Facebook where basically the cynical people are like, well, if the brethren are teaching it, it doesn't matter what the givens teach. And then somebody else said, well, if it's not in the curriculum, it doesn't matter what the givens teach.

John Dehlin [01:17:36] And then Susan wrote, hey, that's our job. Our job is to introduce these ideas into Sunday school, into Sunday lessons. And if we as progressives step up and just start teaching these ideas, they'll get around. Now, I did that for several years in Elders Quorum. I tried to teach progressive lessons, and it was hard. It was hard because a third of the people slept through the lesson, a third of the people loved it, but a third of the people were angry and were annoyed. And you start fostering contention where people are saying, well, Bruce Armaconka didn't say that or Elder Ballard didn't say that. And then they start complaining to the bishop and scowling at you whenever you teach your lesson.

John Dehlin [01:18:21] And this goes to that point about, is the New Order Mormon middle way sort of sustainable? What is it? What are your guys's thoughts on this idea of being the progressive voice at church? Kerry, let's have you answer. Have you Ever tried to be that progressive voice at church?

Being a Progressive Voice Inside the Church

Carey Foushee [01:18:37] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:18:37] And if so, how's that worked out for you?

Carey Foushee [01:18:40] You know, I have hits and misses, you know, I mean, but you're doing it.

John Dehlin [01:18:45] You're saying you're doing it. You're in the struggle.

Carey Foushee [01:18:48] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:18:49] What's that like? What's that been like for you? Has it been positive, negative? You like it?

Carey Foushee [01:18:53] Well, that's what I'm saying. There's areas where I've been really successful with it, and there's areas where I experienced what you've experienced, you know, a little bit where, you know, especially Sunday school, you know, I'm not the teacher up there, so, you know, just having the person raising their hand with an alternative viewpoint doesn't always go well. So, yeah, they're definitely our challenges. I don't know that. You know, I've listened to some of your podcasts, and if people have good answers for this, I definitely don't have a better answer than theirs.

Carey Foushee [01:19:30] I just keep at it, and I kind of recognize that's just part of the game, you know, it's part of. It's just part of that struggle. And I try to allow people to kind of be wherever they're at. And, you know, I push back, though. I'm not. I'm not afraid to push back and make comments. And sometimes you have to just stand alone, you know, sometimes you have to be willing to speak out against your friends. Right. On different ideas. And that's when I try to go back to those basic Mormon and Christian principles, you know, that sit there and reward the person with courage.

Carey Foushee [01:20:07] And, you know, Jesus is standing alone against all these things. You know, there's a lot of there. And so, you know, I take, I guess, some refuge in that and. Yeah, you know.

John Dehlin [01:20:19] No, that's good. Scott, how about you?

Scott Turley [01:20:23] No, I totally agree. In fact, it was fast. It was testimony. I mean, for us, because we had state conference the week before, and I got up and bore my testimony, and it was all about what the fireside. I gave testimony of a Christ who heals and a God who mourns and the Holy Ghost, a Spirit who comforts that. We were all broken. Right. That was my testimony, and I really. And I didn't get any pushback because, like I said, that's very in the mix. So there's a lot of overlap. There's a lot of. In the core theology, there's a lot of progressive, compassionate.

Scott Turley [01:20:57] And so there's a way to word and phrase things in a way that just. That doesn't directly make people feel. Because you want to be able to speak the language, right? The goal in church is to connect with people.

Scott Turley [01:21:12] So rather than always challenge, you want to find connection. And, and then in the connection I can grow, I can learn from others and they can hopefully learn from me. And I try to do that. Lately I've been, you know, it's hard sometimes in Sunday school because I sometimes I'm the person sleeping or just reading my own stuff because it's so hard sometimes stay engaged. But I definitely, that is a challenge I try to take on is just kind of being a voice and sharing other points of view in ways that lead more kind of breadth to the conversation. For sure.

John Dehlin [01:21:45] I love it. What about people that say that the church needs to be more accountable, that apologists are used in a way as a shield to keep the church from just saying, look, we've taught harmful stuff, we've taught wrong stuff, and we apologize. You know, we're taught the steps of repentance. And Dallin H. Oaks is on record as saying we don't apologize. And yet many people, I think, you know, this topic of apologetics and neo apologetics really strikes a chord with people.

Accountability, Apologists, and Closing Reflections

John Dehlin [01:22:22] And a lot of people who have left the church get really triggered by all this. And I think it's at least partly because they want to see some accountability. They want to see the church make restitution, apologize, make restitution.

John Dehlin [01:22:43] And apologists maybe sometimes are seen as a shield to keep the church from being accountable. What do you guys think about that feeling that many sort of post Mormons have? Can you empathize with it at all?

Carey Foushee [01:22:58] Oh, yeah. I mean, I've had, I have those feelings myself at times. You know, I've gone through and I get frustrated. You know, there's a certain type of apologist that just, you know, is like nails on a chalkboard for me too, when at least for me, you know, the apologist that has to just toe the party line, whatever that's kind of been traditionally thought of, you know, that's what they're, you know, that's what their arguments are. And I think that's the negative kind of apologist.

Carey Foushee [01:23:32] And perhaps everybody from time to time is that apologist. But, you know, the neo apologists I think you're talking about are ones that are willing to say, you know, there, there were things done in the past that this isn't right and this wasn't here, but they, I think they still come at it with love, with an understanding and with forgiveness.

Carey Foushee [01:23:56] For that person. And I think that's what, to me, I see that modeled in Terrell Gibbons at times where he's able to criticize or critique different theologies, doctrines, practices, maybe both modern or past. But he does it in a way that he still puts forward his support of the brethren, of the church, of the institution, and so that is what allows him to succeed.

Carey Foushee [01:24:39] I don't know what it's going to take for the institution as a church to. To be like that. I mean, you know, I get frustrated many times and still feel that way. I wish they do this, you know, and I have a hard time with everything that takes place, you know, so.

John Dehlin [01:24:57] Sure. All right, Scott, what's your answer to that?

Scott Turley [01:25:01] Yeah, again, I just don't see these. The neapologists really. They're really speaking for themselves. I don't think there's a coordinated kind of their. That they represent the church in a sort of way. So I think.

John Dehlin [01:25:15] But that's true. But some would say they're being used. And so the bigger question is, can you empathize with the idea that before we can have these nuanced approaches, that the church leaders themselves need to sort of acknowledge their own mistakes, their own accountability, their own diminished status. And in some sense, that's what Ballard did last week when Ballard said, I may be general authority, but I'm not authority of all things in general. Because if the brethren would just say, hey, we're all trying our best. We all make mistakes. We're all just given our best opinions. Sometimes we get it wrong. We've gotten it wrong in the past. Sometimes. Sometimes it's really hurt people. We're sorry. We're going to try and do better work with us here. That's kind of what a lot of people are looking for.

Scott Turley [01:26:06] I agree. I think a lot of what the church. A lot of the ways the church is hard for people would be a lot easier to take if they just did that. I think that's at core when they project themselves as not only official leaders of the church, but these, like, people on the pedestal can do no wrong. Speak for God. Everything they say is exactly from God. Right? When that's the notion that's projected, that's the way I viewed them. That. That can get. That can be really. That could makes everything so much harder because you have to, like, try to figure out, okay, how does. How is polygamy from God? How is blacks in the priesthood from God? If we could just admit, hey, we just made some mistakes, we got this wrong. Right? Which is it just eases the whole experience. The whole experience for everybody. Right. So I know.

Carey Foushee [01:26:55] I don't know if it does it for everybody, Scott.

John Dehlin [01:26:56] Right.

Carey Foushee [01:26:56] It's like then all of a sudden you're like, wait a minute. What is true? What is the red. I thought I would join this church and they were going to tell me, and it was all. I mean, then you're disillusioned and.

Scott Turley [01:27:09] Yeah, you're right.

Carey Foushee [01:27:10] It opens a whole nother can of worms.

Scott Turley [01:27:13] You're right. It's a tough. It's tough. No, I sympathize with the people who want that. I also sympathize with the church who. Maybe some of them would like to do that. But. Yeah, it's. I don't. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:27:29] And so I think what we're seeing is, is that this process is messy and it takes time.

Scott Turley [01:27:34] Right, right, right, right.

John Dehlin [01:27:36] And what we're seeing is what we're living in 2017 with the Givens, with the Bushmans, with Patrick Mason, with Ballard, with Oakes, is we're just living the messiness of the time it takes for a church to become more diverse and more mature.

Scott Turley [01:27:54] Right.

John Dehlin [01:27:54] And I guess we could say kudos to the Givens and the Masons and, you know, the Colvins and the Witherspoons and the Turley and the Foshees. I don't. I don't remember how to pronounce your name. Kudos to everyone who's in that conversation.

Scott Turley [01:28:11] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:28:12] All right, I'm going to give. Kerry, I'll give you a final word, and then, Scott, I'll give you the last word. We'll wrap up.

Carey Foushee [01:28:19] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:28:21] What would you like to sort of say in closing as we sort of look on, as you've experienced one of the Givens firesides, as we look at the Christ who heals, as we look at the role of neapologetics. What's your. What summary do you want to leave our listeners with in this episode?

Carey Foushee [01:28:43] Man, that's hard. Mine goes blank thinking like that. But, you know, I still just struck by how little there were of people there. You know, that's kind of what I feel like, too, is, like, I do a lot of this. You know, I'm reading these books, I'm thinking all these things, and for the most part, I don't have a lot of people doing even talk about religion with people at church aren't really interested in talking about those kinds of things. I've kind of grown to accept that and appreciate that, like my own Wife, she would rather just go to church on Sunday and most of the time, and then, you know, just basically she's orientated by the gospel.

Carey Foushee [01:29:27] She lives her life and, you know, we kind of live those ways, but she. She just doesn't really care about the details. Like, you know, in a lot of ways, she'll let me talk to her a little bit, you know, express this and that, but she's just out of complete non interest in theology and all these details of religion in general. You know, she's. And I get that. And then I think in some ways there's only certain people that are going to be that interested in these differences. So in that way, I'm a little more pessimistic about these things actually mattering in terms of lots of people getting involved, because I think there's just not that many people that really care about those details until you have to.

Carey Foushee [01:30:11] And then being in these online communities of Mormon stories and Mormon matters and the ATF and all those is there's always people that have a hard time with, because I know I'm gonna sound apologist to them, is because the brethren don't sanction this. And that's always the stopper, is, you know, they just don't feel like it's legitimate. And I don't know how I got there, but I did. I just got to where it. I didn't. I didn't need that. That external authority approval, you know, that. That's sort of what I ended up learning is I didn't need that. I don't necessarily need them to still be able to feel Mormon and feel genuinely and grow.

Carey Foushee [01:31:00] Yeah, there's still tension in dealing with that. And, you know, when I go to church and stuff like that, but that's why I go to the givens. That's why I read these books, is because I'm still, you know, working on it. And I'll leave you with that.

John Dehlin [01:31:14] I love it. All right, Kerry, you've been great. Thanks for joining us. Scott, give us. You get the final word.

Scott Turley [01:31:20] All right. I just want to say too, that I think this is. This goes way beyond just Mormonism, because again, I had a recent conversation about Richard War. I kind of feel like he's doing the same thing from a Catholic point of view. And I just think there's these thinkers and out there just broadly theologians and in all different faiths and there's others, too, that I need to dive into.

Scott Turley [01:31:47] They're saying a lot of the same things about compassion and connection and wholeness and Bigness. Right. And I just find it beautiful and poetic and big. While at the same time, I do agree we need standards and boundaries, and we don't want to be total messes. Right. We don't want to. We want to have these lives that are good and.

Scott Turley [01:32:13] And stuff. So I just. I find it really beautiful and it light. So much light here, and I love being here, and I wish there was more of it, as Carrie was saying, but I just. Yeah, to me, it's just a beautiful thing. And I really appreciate. I can't wait to buy the book and to read it and dig into it. There's a whole stack of other books I want to read and dig into and bring it into my lived experience and in my conversations with people in church on Sunday as well.

Carey Foushee [01:32:45] So.

Scott Turley [01:32:46] No, it's great stuff and I love talking about it, so appreciate you having

John Dehlin [01:32:50] me on in some way. You guys at A Thoughtful Faith are kind of carriers and spreaders of the light, right? You're trying to just say, let's have more light, let's have more love, and let's find a way to spread it, even though it's just scratching the surface. It's a couple thousand people, really. Right?

Carey Foushee [01:33:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:33:10] But that's a start. And it's a real act of love that you guys are sort of engaging in, I think.

Scott Turley [01:33:15] Yeah, I think so. I hope so.

John Dehlin [01:33:17] So shout out to you, Scott, to you, Carrie, to all the good people at A Thoughtful Faith, to the Givens and the Bushmans and the Masons and all those guys. I really liked our conversation. So, Scott and Kerry, you're awesome. Thanks for joining us. Please, let's get some women on these discussions. That's an open invitation.

John Dehlin [01:33:38] We would love to have more women. So love you guys. Thanks so much. Thanks to all the listeners. Definitely. Our Facebook Live participants made this conversation more meaningful. So thanks to everyone who participated. For those who support the Open Stories Foundation, a thoughtful faith podcast, Mormon Matters Podcast, Mormon Stories Podcast. We can't do this without you, so please do support us if you can. Just go up to your favorite podcast, go to the top right click on donate and 10, 15, 100 bucks a month, whatever you can afford. Allows us to keep paying. Gina allows us to keep paying. Dan allows us to keep the lights on with the Open Stories foundation staff, and it makes a big difference.

John Dehlin [01:34:22] Thanks to all the moderators of A Thoughtful faith Forum for keeping that forum so awesome. And please join us again soon. In just a few minutes, I'm going to be interviewing Weird Alma, which is actually a gentleman named Eric Herrmann who has written some parodies about Mormonism that are really funny in the style of Weird Al Yankovic. So stay tuned if you want to hear about that. We'll be starting that in just a few minutes, but thanks everyone for joining us. Thanks for the support, and we'll see you guys again soon.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.