Introduction and Donor Message

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 495

James Patterson [00:00:00] Hi, this is James Patterson, Mormon Stories Podcast producer. Did you know that Mormon Stories relies entirely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep Mormon Stories alive? Please consider becoming a monthly subscriber right now by texting the word Mormon to 41444 on your smartphone, you'll receive a text message directing you to a donation page where you can set the amount and frequency of your contribution. Again, that's the word Mormon to 41444 to donate now. You can also donate by visiting MormonStories.org and thanks for your support. The kindly light amid encircling gloom Lead thou me on. The night is dark and I am far from home. Lead thou me on.

Welcome and Guest Introductions

John Dehlin [00:00:59] Hello and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John de Lynn. It is August 27, 2014 and as usual, I am so super excited to have with us our guests for today. Two of them are repeat participants in Mormon Stories and one is new. The repeat participants are the are the amazing and gifted and talented, although I won't drop into hero worship because your book explicitly warns against that. But we have with us today Terrell Givens and Fiona Givens. We're here to talk about their new book published by Deseret Book entitled the Crucible of Reflections on the Quest for Faith. And just a brief intro about Terrell. He is a professor of literature and religion at the University of Richmond in Virginia and he's the author of several books. His books are amazing. When Souls Had Wings, Parley Pratt, the Apostle, the Apostle Paul of Mormonism, the Angel Wrestling the Angel, the Foundations of Mormon Thought by the Hand of Mormon is a fantastic book. People of Paradox. I could go on and on. Viper in the Hearth read Terrell Gibbons's books and he is of course the co author of the book that we've had them on, Terrell and Fiona, recently to discuss which is the God who Weeps. So Terrell Givens, thank you again for joining us on Mormon Stories.

Terryl Givens [00:02:28] Nice to be with you again, John. Thanks.

John Dehlin [00:02:30] And Fiona is a retired modern language teacher with degrees in French and German and a graduate degree in European History. She's an independent scholar in Mormon Studies and she's published in the journal Mormon History Exponent, two LDS Living, et cetera. Again, she is a co author of the God who Weeps, which everyone should read if they're into thoughtful, faithful Mormonism. And both Terell and Fiona are the grandparents of five, five children, which they write, are the fonts of delight. Are there grandchildren yet?

Fiona Givens [00:03:08] No, those are actually The. The grandchild.

John Dehlin [00:03:10] Okay, I'm sorry. I got it mixed up.

Fiona Givens [00:03:12] We. I don't know. Yes. We did it the wrong way around. Five grandchildren, six children. Don't want to let you know. Miss out any of the children.

John Dehlin [00:03:23] So, Fiona, welcome to Mormon Stories.

Fiona Givens [00:03:25] Thank you, John, very much. It's lovely to be here.

John Dehlin [00:03:29] And we have as a third guest on today's episode, a friend of mine. I don't know what to say, James, other than say that James Patterson has. Has been sort of a real substantive supporter of Mormon Stories over the past several months. And we're going to be digging into James's story sort of in the first hour. So, James, welcome to Mormon Stories.

James Patterson [00:03:58] Thank you. Thanks for having me. And it's great to be with all of you.

John Dehlin [00:04:02] And I'll just say that. So I'll tell a little bit of a story, and then I'll explain what the format's going to be for today, and then we're going to dive in. So several months ago, and James, you can correct me if I'm retelling the story wrong, but several months ago, I started receiving, you know, private messages from James. And one day it would be sort of like, john, I'm really struggling. I really have a hard time. And then another day it would be like, hey, John, I think I got it all figured out. And then a couple. And I'd say, well, good for you if that's true. You know, my experience is it takes a little longer than four weeks to figure everything out, but if you've got it, I'm happy for you. And then, you know, maybe a month later, James would come back and say, whoa, I'm really struggling again. And then he learned that Terrell and Fiona were working on a book called the Crucible of Doubt. And so he was so motivated and excited about this book that he said, hey, John, let's make a deal. If I can reach out to the Givens and get them to come on Mormon Stories to talk about their book, you know, is that all right? And I'm like, sure. So James read the book, and not to say that anyone's journey is ever finished, of course, so we're not going to set James up for that, but James did read the the Crucible of Doubt from start to finish. And I'd say less than 24 hours or maybe 48. James, is that true?

James Patterson [00:05:31] Yeah, it's about 48 hours.

John Dehlin [00:05:32] Yeah. And by the end, he felt like it was really a turning point for him. So. So what we're going to do is we're going to start. So we thought it'd be cool not just to cover this book in the standard way, but instead to have James tell a little bit about his story, to kind of, to kind of represent the modern struggles that people have in 2014 a little bit. Then we're going to talk about, have James talk about kind of his finding of the book. And then we're going to pause. We're not going to have them talk too much about the book. Then we're going to bring Terrell and Fiona on and they are going to talk about the book itself and we're going to cover some of the main points that they are trying to convey in the second hour. It's going to be kind of a Q and A. And and this has been one of the most active sort of question postings that I've ever had on Mormon stories. Probably up to 90 or more really substantive questions. Generally respectful. I didn't see a lot of really mean spirited or disrespectful questions there, but I doubt we'll be able to get to all the questions, but I'm hoping that we'll be able to tackle many of them. And so with that, James, why don't you dig in and tell us a bit about your Mormon story as it relates to this book.

James Patterson's Mormon Upbringing

James Patterson [00:06:53] Sure. So, I mean, you know, backing up all the way. I had a pretty average Mormon upbringing. I mean, I was born into a Mormon family. My dad's family was converted when he was a kid. My mom was actually adopted and her adopted family comes from pioneer stock. She would tell us stories of one of the pioneers, apparently relatively famous, maybe like a Bee lister pioneer by the name of Pleasant Green Taylor. I knew he was a B lister because when I was on my mission, I actually found out that somebody I was teaching was related to him and found out that it was a relatively common pioneer. But so I remember going to church since I was a little kid. I've never not known all of the primary songs. I've never not known most of the hymns. And I just kind of grew up relatively what I would think is a relatively average, normal upbringing in the church. I was very active as a youth. I was deacons, quorum, president. My mom taught seminary. I grew up in North Carolina. So, you know, all of my friends for the most part were Mormon. We kind of stuck together because that was kind of what you did in our area. There was some, a little bit of anti Mormon sentiment in our school. There's a big Baptist church just down the road. A lot of kids active in the Baptist church, and they would have these monthly rallies or youth rallies where the preacher would preach supposedly anti Mormon doctrine. So I'd get questions from kids at school, and we'd just all kind of band together. We hung out on weekends, the guys from Young Men's and whatnot. So. So, I mean, it was really a formative time for me in my youth, you know, banded together with people who kind of thought and felt the same way that I did. So I kind of had what I guess you would call it kind of a. It was kind of a Peter priesthood. That was the term that some people would use. I mean, skipping school was about the worst thing I did when growing up, and I felt guilty for that. But I just grew up with a love and a reverence for the gospel, for the church, and for the prophet. I always thought President Hinckley was a bit stodgy when he was a counselor. But then when he became prophet, I remember, it's like in my eyes, he became this whole different person. I felt like I knew him and he was always speaking to me. I actually went to the Raleigh Temple dedication, and I was sitting maybe 15ft from him, and I had this really profound spiritual experience. And I had those growing up as a youth, these spiritual experiences that led me through the church and, you know, kind of led to my testimony. But I also grew up with a very inquisitive personality. My mom calls it argumentative. I choose to call it inquisitive. So I search the scriptures more than I think probably most kids my age did. And searching the scriptures combined with these questions that I would get from kids at school is kind of where, you know, vernacular that we use. And building a shelf. That's probably where my shelf started. Although I guess looking back, I don't think I realized I was. I was building a shelf at the time, but I was. I was putting these things on the shelf that I couldn't quite figure out. You know, there was like, you know, one of my questions growing up, I remember was, you know, Alma in the Book of Mormon, you know, where did he get his authority from? Because it doesn't say that he, you know, had the laying on of hands before he baptized. So, you know, there's those kind of little nitpicky questions that I had that led into some bigger questions. You know, who did he confess his sins to? If, you know, it was a very. I was examining the Book of Mormon through a very, you know, 20th century Mormonism view, which led to Some questions, but it also led me to kind of question things. And then being on my mission and getting older. I served a Spanish speaking mission in Idaho and questions would arise then. And that's where I really started to find out more details about the priesthood band. There was a beautiful, just a beautiful African American couple in my ward growing up. They were just absolutely the softest, kindest people you would ever meet. And they were who I would think of when I got these questions or I started reading or studying about the priesthood ban. And it just never made sense to me. But I never really talked to anyone about it. I never went out and tried to get my, my concerns resolved in a real way. So I went on a mission. And my mission really followed kind of the pattern of me growing up. I was a. I was a rule follower. I learned about obedience was a huge thing on my mission. Our mission president actually had this thing called, they call it the celestial form, where at the top of the form would list the days of the month and on the side of the form would list all of the rules that you had to follow. And you had to put a little black mark for every rule that you didn't follow. And at the end of the transfer period when you'd have your interview with the president, you'd have to give him your form. So that was a big part of growing up then in the church, learning obedience. And I was a rule follower. I really felt like success was tied to obedience. I felt like blessings were directly tied to obedience. It seems so odd now to think that, I mean, God would really tie someone else's eternal progression on whether I went to bed by 10:30 or not. But that's how we were trained. That's how I really thought. I went through a summer on my mission where this was just like, I mean, really hyper focused. I was an area leader for the first time and I was just desperate for success. It seemed like this area was ripe for right before the picking. And I mean, we sacrificed and put in more hours in this area than I've ever seen any missionary do. We split off. We were actually in a threesome companion and we split off three ways with members and put in like 120 hours a week. We didn't open our letters until P day. I mean, we did all these things that just, you know, I was trying to bind the Lord to give us baptisms and it was the least, from a baptism standpoint, it was the least fruitful three months of my mission. And I just, I couldn't for the rest of my mission. I couldn't understand that experience. It didn't make sense to me. And then I had another experience on my mission that was kind of the first chink in my armor when it came to, you know, church leadership. I had a really big, really kind of a negative experience with my mission president. I won't go into a lot of detail, but I just. I lost kind of some faith in and some trust in him for the most part. We ended up working it out, but it just kind of changed how I've. You know, I kind of put him on a pedestal and it changed my viewpoint of him and made me question some things, you know, about church leadership and whatnot. But all these things I continue to just kind of put on the shelf. And so I got off a mission and I went to BYU Idaho. And the decision to do that was another one of. I don't consider myself a very spiritual person. Meaning I don't have. I don't regularly have, like, you know, any sort of profound spiritual experiences. I would say that I feel. Feel the spirit on a relatively regular occasion. But, I mean, I've never had a real profound spiritual experience. But when I. The decision to go to BYU Idaho was probably one of the exceptions. I just. There was just something that told me that that was the right decision for me and it would lead to good things. And it was interesting because that coincided. I had a phone call with my mission president. I was just checking in with him. He was asking how life was, and he was asking me where I was going to apply to school. And I told him I have some options around home. And I wasn't planning at all on going to BYU Idaho, not at all, because I just spent the last two years there. And I wanted to stay in North Carolina. When he suggested that I apply there, just had this. I can't even really describe it. It was just this wave of spiritual light or truth that just told me that's where I should go. It was a completely different experience than I've ever had. And BYU Idaho actually ended up being a really, really good experience for me for a lot of reasons. I mean, I'm. You know, I met my wife there. That's kind of what launched what is now, you know, my career as a writer and in advertising and marketing. It all kind of the genesis of that was at byu. So I'm definitely grateful for that experience. And that's really where I started into. I was on the student newspaper. And for the first time in my life, I was able to, you Know, what I couldn't do on the mission was kind of step outside myself and kind of test certain boundaries. Not when it came to, like, obedience, but when it came to critical thinking. And so that's kind of what I did. I was actually an opinion writer for the newspaper. And so I would just kind of take observation of things I saw around campus and I would write columns about it. And kind of the way my columns tended to be written were from kind of poking the Mormon bubble a bit. That's kind of the bent that my columns tend to take. I would talk about the honor code, and one of the things that always was curious to me was how the honor code at BYU Idaho is different from the honor code at byu. You know, you could wear shorts at byu, you can't wear shorts at BYU Idaho. So I started poking that bubble a little bit. I started around.

Attending BYU-Idaho and Early Faith Questions

John Dehlin [00:17:38] What year was this, James?

James Patterson [00:17:39] I started at BYU Idaho in 2003.

John Dehlin [00:17:43] Okay. And who was president at the time?

James Patterson [00:17:46] Elder Bednar.

John Dehlin [00:17:47] Okay. Okay. Yeah, Just making sure.

James Patterson [00:17:48] Yeah. So I was kind of poking all sorts of little bears around campus, like honor code and curfew, the activities program. Because BYU Idaho doesn't have sports like byu, they have kind of a glorified intramural program. And devotional was another thing. And just these kind of things that I was. I was just kind of poking this. This Mormon bubble a little bit. It was very kind of a high profile experience because a lot of students on campus read the newspaper and we got a lot of letters to the editor. Some really good and some people kind of. It resonated with. And other people, you know, they really had a hard time with it. You know, I tried to be. I tried to be a balance of, you know, providing good information, but also to be entertaining. One of my favorite columns I wrote was a very satirical column called how to Keep youp Super Bowl Sunday Holy. I've had a lot of fun with it, but some people took it. I mean, it was a completely satire column, but some people took it absolutely seriously and wrote it in letters to the editor, wondering why I would dare suggest some of the things I was suggesting. So it was just interesting in those ways that I was just kind of trying to poke at that.

John Dehlin [00:19:04] Yeah, you know, BYU has this long tradition of like the 7th East Press and then Student Review. And I've always wondered if BYU Idaho had anything even similar. Sounds like you were trying to play that role.

James Patterson [00:19:16] Yeah, yeah. We didn't really have any kind of underground thing. And so, yeah, it was, you know, me And a couple other writers that were trying to kind of, which we were trying to, I mean, push the boundaries a little bit and see what kind of things we could talk about and what kind of reactions we would get. For the most part, I mean, there was never any. I never ran into any problems with anything I wrote. With one exception, there was. So there's a. To make a long story short, there was a curfew policy that got changed during the time I was there. And it was a really complicated situation. But in essence, the student life office announced that they were going to be changing curfew. And all the students, I think they were going to be extending curfew by an hour.

John Dehlin [00:20:10] Okay.

James Patterson [00:20:11] But I don't know if they do this at byu, but there's also a guys out, girls out rule where, you know, an hour before curfew, girls have to be out of guys apartments and vice versa. And so when they published the actual pamphlet and the information, the press release and everything to announce the new curfew, you know, they said, I think they were extending curfew from 11 to 12. They actually said that they, you know, however was written, made it seem like guys out, girls out was not moving. So now there was going to be a two hour period in between when guys had to be out of girls apartments and vice versa, and when curfew was. And a lot of students were actually kind of up in arms about it because they felt like it was kind of putting, you know, some kids were going to see it as a situation where, well, you can't be in each other's apartments and you don't have to go home yet. So being Rexburg, Idaho, people were worried that some people were going to go park or go to dark places and do things they shouldn't. And so there was a lot of chatter around campus about it. And so I did what I usually do and I decided to write a column about it. And I criticized the administration, saying this new curfew policy was either poorly communicated or it was not very well thought out. And, you know, I think students would just kind of like to know which one it is. And a couple days later I got called into the office of the dean of student life was a great, great man. His name is Jim Gee. He's been a mission president. He's an amazing man. And I was told that administration. And it was, it was made pretty clear to me that by administration he meant that at the time, President Bednar was not happy with my column. And so I kind of got a little Bit of, you know, a little bit of a slap on the wrist for that. And then about. I don't know if it was six months after that or a year after that. That's when Elder Bednar was called as an apostle. And so I was kind of like, whoa, this guy just called to be apostle? And I kind of called him out in public. And it was kind of a. A weird, interesting experience for me. And I was at the press conference when he was called to be an apostle, and I got to ask him a few questions. And just kind of those interactions were really interesting, but kind of indicative of my time at school and how I started kind of poking the bear, as it were, a little bit. I started to get outside my shell and start questioning things more. That's kind of what college represented for me. So I got married in our senior year of college. We graduated, we moved to the East Coast. We lived in New York for a few months, did internships, and then we moved to D.C. and so I got. So, I mean, it's quite a culture shock to go from Rexburg, Idaho to Manhattan and living in New York and living in D.C. and, you know, working. Working here in this area. It kind of, you know, in the sense of meeting new people who weren't Mormon, it kind of, you know, opened my eyes to a lot of things. It was a great, great time in our lives. We were, you know, we didn't have kids and we were working and just enjoying the city. And this is actually around. I believe this is around the same time that things with Proposition 8 were kind of heating up. So I started to really develop this kind of internal turmoil. About the same time, a friend who we'd gone to school with came out as gay. And I had friends and co workers who I worked with who were openly gay. And it just started to become very, very difficult for this equation that I had put together in my head in regards to the church and, you know, the issue of homosexuality, it started to not compute anymore because I was actually starting. I was actually being exposed to, you know, real people in my life who were gay. And that's. That's when it really started to get kind of difficult for me. And. But I tried to put that on the shelf as well and just trust that, you know, God's going to figure it all out. And then we moved back to Idaho for work reasons, and I got called eventually into a bishopric where I served for several years. And that was another, you know, it was a great experience. It was a very hard experience. There's a lot of things that I learned. It's, it's. It was uplifting at times, but it was also very, very difficult at times. And it was. I almost liken it to. I mean, it wasn't all like this, but it's kind of like, you know, the thing about, you know, working at a sausage factory, you know, I got to see kind of the. More of the inner workings of what it takes to really run the church on a local level for the first time. And there were both positive and negative aspects to that. And then just after that, we moved back to D.C. which is where we are now. So we've kind of been hopping back and forth. And when we moved back here, I was called a seminary teacher. And that calling really, I was really at a weird, stagnant place in regards to the church and my testimony. I viewed moving back here and being out of the bishopric as kind of an opportunity for me to kind of take a break from thinking about all these hard things and kind of clear my mind. And I wasn't planning on going inactive or anything, but, I mean, I just had a lot of my mind and things were just hard for me. And then I. So that was my plan. And then I got called to be a seminary teacher. So that was actually a good experience because I got to work with the youth, which was great. And I actually tried to really sincerely dive into the scriptures and learn new things. But as I studied, it was just this last December. I don't remember what I was studying or what I was looking up, but I. I happened to come across the church's new essay that came out in December on the priesthood ban and blacks in the priesthood. And it was just this really weird thing where reading that, and especially the last section of that, where the church completely disavowed the teachings of past, essentially past prophets about the priesthood ban and about, you know, racist statements that. That past leaders have made. It was just like this. This singular moment where everything just came kind of came crashing down my shelf, just completely crashed because I just started to realize that even, you know, up to the very top, this kind of experience that I had with my mission president, you know, I was like, oh, you know, nobody's safe. You know, it goes all the way up to the very top. Everyone can make mistakes. And what does that mean for everything? I suddenly realized the prophets had been wrong. That means everything could be wrong. And just over the course of several weeks, everything just started to completely unravel, and I felt like I was in a complete free fall.

John Dehlin [00:27:46] You're not the first person to tell me that the church's new essays, which, by and large, for me, I'm grateful for and excited about. You're not the first to tell me that. That those were actually the impetus to a faith crisis, which is, you know, unfortunate and interesting and probably natural, too. Terrell and Fiona, have either of you heard similar stories around that or not?

Terryl Givens [00:28:12] Well, we've heard that there are some of the more conservative and orthodox membership of the church who have been deeply offended and disappointed in those essays.

James Patterson [00:28:24] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:28:25] Okay. So for you, it's been more. The More the orthodox you've heard.

Terryl Givens [00:28:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:30] Yeah. Because if they sort of say, hey, the brethren were wrong in the past, or they're kind of maybe viewed as giving up some ground a little bit, and that might make some of the more conservative folk uncomfortable. Is that.

Terryl Givens [00:28:43] Yeah, I think so. And because it represents a kind of flexibility on the part of the Church, a kind of accommodation to historical research and recent developments that some people see as a kind of cowardly movement away from core positions, which I think is a pretty poor interpretation.

John Dehlin [00:29:03] Right. And we'll. Yeah, we'll definitely get to that. Anything to add, Fiona, or.

Fiona Givens [00:29:09] No, but I do. I do agree that some people on both sides are finding the essays disconcerting, but I think that's a good thing. Yeah, disequilibrium is actually a good thing. We need more people thinking more. More intensely about these issues. And disequilibrium is not bad.

John Dehlin [00:29:30] Right, right. And it's just natural. The church couldn't make any move without, you know, people being happy and mad at the same time.

Fiona Givens [00:29:37] So true. Absolutely.

James Patterson's Faith Crisis Unfolds

John Dehlin [00:29:39] All right, James, back to you.

James Patterson [00:29:40] Yeah. And I. I guess I wouldn't say. I mean, the essay itself itself didn't make me angry or upset. I mean, the words themselves, it was, you know, is the realization that they brought me to that was just really troubling for me. And this all happened over the course of Christmas break. You know, we were on break from seminary, and I'm just in a whirlwind about literally, you know, everything, and I just had no idea what to do. And seminary was starting back up the next Monday, and I just was. I was at a point where I didn't know what to do. And so I just. I mean, I emailed the bishop the night before seminary was to start, and I just told him, I don't think I can teach seminary anymore. And he was concerned, and, you know, he wanted. We met later about it, and that went okay. But, I mean, I had to abruptly stop teaching seminary because, I mean, I got to a point where I just had to completely deconstruct everything and I mean everything about. About what I believed. So I just went through this process of where I just kind of threw. I mean, I threw everything out that I. That I thought I knew.

John Dehlin [00:31:03] Did he release you? Did you just say yes?

James Patterson [00:31:06] I asked to be released, so I said, I'm not going to be able to teach you anymore. It was a really awkward situation because we had two other teachers that we were coordinating with. But I said, I know this is awkward, I know this is frustrating, and I apologize to the other teachers, but I just can't. I can't do this and I really need to be released. And it was really awkward and frustrating.

John Dehlin [00:31:23] Yeah, I know you know this, but my crisis of faith started in around 2002, in my second year of teaching seminary. And I actually too had to step down halfway through the year. So that's a. That's kind of an interesting coincidence because I had the same experience.

James Patterson [00:31:40] Yeah, I was like, I was down to the wire and it was like, either I wake up tomorrow morning and I teach this stuff that I'm really not sure that I believe, or I have to do this awkward, you know, hard thing and just step down. And that's what I decided to do because I had no idea what I would even say to my students the next morning. So I was released from seminary and I just kind of went through this. I think it was like a two or three week period where I just kind of deconstructed everything and I. I just, I started to just try to examine what in my life that I knew was true. Because that's where I realized I was at the point where I don't know that the Book of Mormon is true in the sense that, you know, it's a real. I mean, it's a real book about real people. I've, you know, I've never met Nephi or Lehi. I wasn't there in the sacred grove when Joseph had his first vision. So I can't say that I, you know, I used to say in my testimony, I know that Joseph saw what he said he saw, but I can't say that anymore because I don't. I wasn't there. And I started to just do that about everything, everything about my testimony. And I just broke it all down. And I started to say to myself, okay, what do I know? And I just, I kind of marinated in that question for like two weeks. What is it? I know. And what it came down to was I actually remember the moment I was sitting on the bench waiting for the bus, and it was this beautiful, crisp winter morning, and there were not really a lot of people around, and there were leaves rustling. And I was sitting there just thinking about this question, what do I know? And this overwhelming feeling of just. I can't even put a word on it. It's love, it's compassion, it's warmth, its kindness just washed over me. And I knew at that moment that there. That's what I know. I know that there is this essence, this something, you know, call it whatever you want, call it divine nature that exists in the universe that I can't deny, because when I tap into it, it's real and I can feel it. And that's the feeling that I feel for my family. It's this real thing. So I was like, I know that that exists because I can feel it. And I know that I love my family above anything, but other than that, I don't really. I don't really know anything. And so it was like, what do I know? And then I started to make kind of a new category. What do I. What do I believe or what do I hope for? Because, like, there's some things that I just. I are probably just not knowable. And that's where I kind of put a lot of the things about the church in respect to. That's where I put God. I don't know that he's real, but I hope that he is. And I know that when I think about him in that way, I feel that feeling of love and everything else just kind of became kind of periphery in a way. And I just kind of. When I came to that. That belief or that, you know, choosing to hope in God that the world doesn't. To me personally, the world doesn't make sense without some sort of divine interceptor or plan or purpose. This belief in God and Jesus Christ, the world just doesn't make sense to me personally without those. And so I kind of put that in the belief, in the hope box. And I just kind of sat with that for a couple more weeks. And I just felt so different. I felt alive in a different way. I viewed people differently. I viewed my family differently. I feel like I started expressing love in a more unique way. And, you know, silly, stupid things, like, I tend to be a little aggressive when I drive. You know, you can ask my wife. But I started to notice that, you know, when someone would cut me off, whereas before, I'd be like, you know, I get it back or honk at him, let them know that I'm really mad. And now it's just this very natural, you know. Yes, absolutely, sir. You must be in a big hurry. Something must be going on in your life. Please, you know, take the spot in front of me. I'll happily break for you. But it was a real tangible, like, change in my heart that happened and that. I mean, it wasn't, you know, it sounds funny saying it, but that was, it was real. And I still try to kind of tap into that.

John Dehlin [00:36:13] And it's lasted, huh?

James Patterson [00:36:15] I mean, it ebbs and flows for sure, but I just swam in that it was like this two week period where that just flowed through me with this intensity that I'd never. I mean, I never felt anything like that on my mission, which is, you know, logically to me that would be the place where you would feel it. But I didn't. I mean, it happened through kind of my shelf breaking is where that kind of deconstructed and turned into that. And then kind of life got, got back in the way. I mean, I was back at work and I ended up meeting with my bishop. And that was not the best experience, meeting with him, because he wanted to know, you know, he wanted to know if there was something that, you know, I was unworthy to teach seminary. And so he wanted to meet with me. And, you know, I was at a point where I was, you know, a little frustrated with some, some stuff with the church. And so I kind of, I didn't unload on him, but I, you know, I let him. I wasn't, I didn't beat around the bush about the stuff or the reasons that I stopped teaching seminary. And he, you know, he handled it like probably most people would, but it just wasn't in the most loving way that I would have loved. And so that was hard. And that kind of made it frustrating to go to church. And that kind of wasn't that specific experience that kind of launched me into. But I just naturally kind of, as I studied more and started thinking about things more, I kind of left this kind of spiritual high that I was on. And I entered kind of what I call the anger phase, where I was just angry, you know, I was angry because the picture that I had in my mind of Joseph Smith growing up was not the picture I was learning about.

John Dehlin [00:38:01] Hey, James.

Fiona Givens [00:38:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:05] How did you learn about the race and the priesthood essay and to what extent did sort of involvement on the Mormon Internet, with blogs or podcasts or Facebook or Whatever influence, you know, what led to that December kind of event.

James Patterson [00:38:21] Sure. I. The only interaction I really had with the. I mean, you know, the Mormon blogosphere would be, I. I read by common consent on a semi regular basis, meaning I would. I would kind of check a post here or there every maybe few weeks, but I was not a regular reader.

John Dehlin [00:38:42] How'd you. How did you learn it by common consent? I'm just curious.

James Patterson [00:38:44] I don't. I don't remember. It's probably. It was probably through a friend or through social media. I honestly don't.

John Dehlin [00:38:50] Okay, that's fine.

James Patterson [00:38:50] I don't remember.

Terryl Givens [00:38:51] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:38:52] So no Mormon stories at this point?

James Patterson [00:38:54] No, no, I had not heard of anything about Mormon stories.

John Dehlin [00:38:57] Okay.

James Patterson [00:38:58] And I came across the essay. I believe it was on Facebook. Somebody had shared something about it, and I clicked on it. And it was a night while I was studying for seminary. And I was like, oh, this is interesting, because it's a topic that I had always wondered about and the church is actively talking about it. So I thought I'd read it. And that's kind of where it all started. And so, you know, furiously searching and googling and reading. After that happened, after my shelf kind of broke and after I was down off this spiritual high, that's when I just. I mean, I tore up the Internet looking for information. And I had always. I'd always. On my mission growing up, I'd always tried to distance myself from what I thought of as anti Mormon materials. And so I was very keen on trying to go to read about from safe sources and stuff. I wanted to hear from active members of the church and stuff like that. And that's, I think, about the time I stumbled on. I think it was your interview with Richard Bushman. And I listened to that and I was like, whoa. I mean, some of the stuff that I heard on there that I had never heard about before, like, you know, polyandry. And I had heard some of the stuff about Joseph Smith and his involvement with magic and peep stones, but I didn't actually think that a lot of that stuff was actually true. I thought it was just anti Mormon stuff that, you know, anti Mormon people put out. And so I kind of. I would. I would always push it off. But to hear an active member of the church who was a patriarch and a former stake president talk about these things as, you know, factual realities was just. That's kind of, you know, what kind of opened my eyes and in a way made me kind of angry and frustrated. And so I just kind of. I Just jumped in with both feet, my whole body into reading everything I could.

John Dehlin [00:40:56] I don't mean to keep drawing parallels, but I can distinctly remember reading Joseph Smith and the beginnings of Early Mormonism, which was before Rust Unrolling was published. And I had read Fawn Brody. I had read, you know, Grant Palmer all before, but. But just like you here, reading it from someone who had been a Stake president, a patriarch and confer, it wasn't that his book was. Was gnarlier or more controversial. I had read the tougher stuff elsewhere. But having someone from the inside confirm it. Right. Really, really shook me. Maybe even more than Fawn Brody's book did, which I was surprised about because, you know, he's. He's still, you know, obviously Richard Bushman and is still faithful to this day. But, yeah, that I had the same experience. So.

James Patterson [00:41:45] And I think it was because I could always. I could always rely on putting that anti Mormon stamp on stuff that I heard about. You know, that was always my fail safe. Okay, I'm just, I'm gonna stamp this as anti Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:41:56] It's suspect. It's suspect, exactly. Because it comes from an apostate source. Right.

James Patterson [00:42:00] So I'm gonna stamp that and then put it on the shelf. And it's fine on the shelf because it's stamped with anti Mormon. So to hear that was. I mean, it was like this. Okay, I have to examine this in a completely different way than I was before. And so, I mean, I really kind of went through a little bit. I mean, not directly, but like this. You know, the stages of grief. I was. Sometimes I would be bitter, sometimes I would just be in denial about it. Sometimes it really, really scared me. And, you know, sometimes it made me really angry. So I went through all these different emotions with it. So, you know, and it started in a way to, you know, affect, you know, life at home. I had trouble going to church, feeling motivated to go to church, because I really know where everything was at. And I was angry and frustrated at the church. And, you know, the only thing I knew at the time was that, you know, I love my family. I wanted that no matter what happened, I wanted to just, you know, keep our family together. And, you know, we, you know, we had a lot of long hard talks, me and my wife and trying to work through everything. And I just got to a point where the more I learned, the more frustrated I got. But I started to feel like it was the most frustrating thing for me was that it felt almost impossible that I was going to be able to live an authentic life within the church. And that's when I started to really get sad. I guess I started to get really frustrated and bitter about little things like were primary teachers and, you know, part of the primary curriculum this year is they're teaching about the proclamation to the family. And, you know, in primary they have, you know, how the children stand up at the end of primary and they'll give a scripture. And one Sunday I was sitting in primary and the scripture was a quote from the proclamation. And I was incensed. I got up and walked out. I was so frustrated because, you know, technically the proclamation to the family is not to canonize scripture. And I shot off an email to the bishop and I was, you know, was very frustrated about it. You know, he, by that, by this point, had just kind of, you know, kind of had enough of. Of me and my rantings. And so he kind of brushed me off. And so I sent an email off to the stake president because I was bound and determined to rid our stake of this, you know, corrupt curriculum. And he actually was incredibly gracious. And he asked me to his office and we had like a two and a half hour conversation about tons of stuff. And he, you know, I walked out of there not seeing eye to eye with him at all. But he just. He was able to talk to me in a way that made me feel loved and accepted and like I was welcome. And so that. That helped a lot. But I still was just. I was just in a very strange place. I just felt heartbroken. I remember one Sunday, I was just sitting right in the middle of the chapel, in the middle of testimony meeting, thinking to myself, I can't bear my testimony. For the first time in my life, I feel like I can't bear my testimony. And I just started to sob because that was a feeling I'd never felt before. I could always stand up and feel confident bearing my testimony. And here I was in the middle of church and I couldn't do that. And it was like. It was like a part of my identity had been taken away from me. And it was this point where I was just voraciously reading everything I could find that I came across an essay that Terrell wrote called Letters to a Doubter. And it really, really resonated with me, some of the points that you made in there. And I'm nothing if not persistent. And so I found Terrell's email and I shot an email to him I enjoy communicating with. So I shot off an email to him. I said, I just want to let you Know that, that really, really resonated with me and that kind of led me to John, your interview with him. It was like a five part interview where you guys just tackled pretty much everything. I mean, it was amazing. I have an hour, you know, over an hour commute every day to work, so I can blow through some podcasts. And so I listened to that one over the course of only like two or three days.

Terryl and Fiona Givens on Doubt and Disillusionment

John Dehlin [00:46:27] And Terrell, I should just tell you that people to this day tell me that they sometimes listen to an interview four or five times a year, just. Oh yeah, as a continual rejuvenator of their faith.

Terryl Givens [00:46:38] So, so that's nice to hear. Oh, I should probably listen to it some.

James Patterson [00:46:46] There was a, there was a spot right in the middle of that, that podcast where Terrell talks about this kind of concept of belief as a choice. And I just, it was, it was, this just resonated with me so, so much in the, in the context of what it, you know, it was a discussion about the Book of Mormon. And I started to realize that concept just started to really resonate with me and it started to really help me put together some of the pieces that had been broken. And that's probably one of the occasions, John, where I, you know, I shot off a message to her like, I'm feeling really good, you know, yada, yada, yada. But then, you know, something else would, would inevitably happen. I came to a point where I had solved. I hadn't solved, but I had come to a place where I felt, I felt more comfortable with some of the, you know, historicity issues because of that podcast with Terrell. But I hadn't really solved some of the modern day kind of frustrations that I had with the church and modern revelation and stuff like that. So I was kind of going through a very up and down period as you talked about. But that podcast is one of the things that really resonated with me. And so I shot off an email to Terrell and we started corresponding back and forth a little bit. But then I had one week. For some reason, I don't remember what it was, but I just had a very, very bad week at church. It seems like it would be every other week. One week would be a really good week and I'd feel like, I can really make this work. This is, you know, I'm okay. And then the next week something would happen that would kind of trigger me and I would just feel like I couldn't go back. And there was this one week where I just. One of the Worst, I felt like, I literally felt physically like I was in a straight jacket. I felt constricted. I felt this anxiety, like I didn't fit in, I didn't belong. And it just, I, I was trying to fit into something that didn't fit. And it was that same week that news about the disciplinary action against Kate Kelly and you, John, came out. So it was the very week after I had had that experience at church. So I was all that put together. I was just extremely angry. And I had already scheduled a meeting with my bishop because we'd just gotten a new bishop. Our bishop moved and I wanted to, I wanted to meet our new bishop and kind of talk to him. And I was sitting in the, I was sitting in the hall waiting for the bishop and the stake president ended up showing up. And so he was like, I'm going to meet with the bishop. And I was like, I am too. You know, would you mind sitting in? Because I'd had a really good experience with him and I was really frustrated at this point. So I really wanted to talk to somebody who understood and I didn't want to unload this completely on my brand new bishop who had been literally only called a couple weeks. So I asked the stake presence to sit in and we had another two hour conversation about everything. And I told him that I had gotten to the point during that week because of everything that was going on with John and Kate and how I was feeling about things that I told him that I didn't know if I could stay in the church. I was legitimately considering resigning my membership and I wanted to know, you know, if they had any thoughts or anything. And it was a, it was a, it was a pretty good conversation. They, you know, they, they, you know, we talked about things and you know, they weren't able to necessarily resolve my concerns, but my new bishop was just so unbelievably loving and compassionate toward me and has, is every time I interact with him that he just, he just made me feel a lot better from that standpoint. And so I told him, you know, I'm not going to make any rash decisions, but I just want to let you know that this is really on my mind and I'm really struggling. And all this was also happening as I was kind of corresponding back and forth with Taro because he told me about his new book that was coming out that was going to kind of be kind of based on or kind of the same theme as the Letter to a Doubter. And that really piqued my interest Because I was looking, you know, I was trying to soak up as much tarot gibbon stuff as I could because it always really helped. And so we started a conversation like you talked about earlier, John. It was just kind of like I was corresponding with Terrell and I was corresponding with you, John. And it was just kind of like this thing where when that book comes out, there should be a. You should do a podcast about that, John. And then I started kind of insert myself. And so. But in corresponding with Terrell, he actually. I was able to view an advanced copy of it. So this was about. Probably all of this happened that I've been talking about over the course of the last six or seven months. And about a month ago, a little over a month ago, he sent me an advanced copy of the book, and I just devoured it within about 48 hours. I mean, I had to sleep and I had to eat, so it took me a little longer, but it's just. Just the way he was able to.

John Dehlin [00:51:59] And Fiona.

James Patterson [00:52:00] Yes, and Fiona, too, absolutely. I apologize. The way. I mean, I've always been just mesmerized by the way both of them frame their outlook on the church, both from kind of a philosophical standpoint. And I just. I'm mesmerized by. It's kind of this poetic feeling that I get. And I'm always mesmerized by Fiona's accent, too. So it's kind of this siren song that draws me in. So, I mean, I listen to the podcast. I listened to the one about the God who weeps. I read this book, and so I just couldn't get enough. So I read this book, and the way that they talked about things and framed things helped me just get a new outlook on things. And it just lifted a huge weight off my shoulder. And we'll talk about this probably a little bit later, but it changed my paradigm of the way I viewed a lot of things. You know, I was expecting certain things out of the church and its leaders and its history that had shaped my outlook. And once I let go of that and of the way I had grown up looking at the church, my outlook completely changed on everything. And that analogy, or the concept of the paradigm shift just really resonated with me. And as I was willing to let go of my previous paradigms, that's when things. You know, I absolutely wouldn't say that I have things figured out by any means, because now I'm at a point where I feel like there's a lot of things that just aren't Necessarily knowable. So I haven't yet, nor will I ever arrive anywhere. But I'm just able to examine things in a whole different way. That just makes more sense for me. And literally since I read that book, I mean, I haven't had a bad day at church. I enjoy teaching primary, although some things still kind of stick in my craw bit. I don't love the whole teaching that the proclamation is scripture because technically it isn't. But I don't let that, you know, ruin my whole church experience. And so the last month has been really just different. A great uplifting departure from where I've been the last six or seven months.

John Dehlin [00:54:33] Well, Fiona, how's that for a one hour endorsement?

Fiona Givens [00:54:38] I thought. James, I thought your story was very beautiful and very moving. I had a question. When you were going through a faith crisis, did you feel isolated? Did you feel that you were the only one in your ward or in your friendship group who was going through this? I mean, was there a sense of isolation, that this was only happening to you and not happening to anybody else?

Isolation, Leadership, and Bearing Testimony

James Patterson [00:55:04] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it was the point where, I mean, I couldn't talk to anyone. It took me forever to even bring this up to my wife because, I mean, there's so many implications to even suggesting that the church isn't quite what you thought it was. I mean, even getting those words out of your mouth has so much weight to it that it's just almost impossible. But it's interesting that as I started to open up my best friend, it turns out we had some conversations back and forth. Turns out that he was having some faith struggles as well. And I've come to know a lot of people in my personal life who are struggling with their faith in similar ways. So as I've reached out, I have been able to find people close to me who are going through a lot of similar things. And that has been a huge, not just a help, but a relief to know that you're not alone.

Fiona Givens [00:56:02] Right, Absolutely. I think that's probably the most awful thing is feeling absolutely on your own and that you're the only one, that you're the odd man out or the odd woman out. And it's very interesting. Terrell was asked to give. I hope this is all right, darling. Me jumping in a priesthood quorum, high priest quorum lesson in a ward, not our ward, it was in Utah. And he actually started off the lesson by saying, put your hand up if you are in faith crisis, if any member of your family is in faith crisis, or you have Friends in faith crisis. And the place was packed. There were so many high priests in it. How many were there, do you think, darling, would you estimate?

Terryl Givens [00:56:49] I don't know, 40 or 50.

Fiona Givens [00:56:50] Probably 40 or 50. Every single one of the men in that room put their hand up, except for one who then challenged Terrell at the end. But he, he had, I think there were issues there, but apart from that one person, every single person raised. And I think that is so warming, you know, to know that you're not part of, you're not on your own and you're not a minority. Because this is a very well established ward in Provo with people who had served high positions or were serving high positions. All of them obviously had been in bishopric cornings. Some of them had been mission presidents. So, yeah, I think that's probably the most important thing is to realize that you're not on your own.

James Patterson [00:57:40] Yeah. And that's why, I mean, not to. I mean, I feel like I'm just free advertising for everybody. But that's one of the reasons why Mormon stories has been such a lifeline for me, because being able to connect and communicate with other people who are going through similar things and have been, I mean, there's people who've been going through this for years and years and years and have been processing the same things has absolutely been an essential part of helping me.

Fiona Givens [00:58:10] James, I was very interested and I wonder if you could explicate a little bit your relationship to leadership and how your, your feeling about being a member of this church was either supported or not supported. And it seems to me that it started with your mission president. You describe your mission, your relationship with your mission president as sort of you, as a very rule orientated man, like to check off the boxes. Was that the primary feeling you had coming from your mission president? Were there any feelings of love that you felt emanating from him towards you as a missionary?

James Patterson [00:58:56] You know, I love my mission. I loved my mission president for the fact that he was my mission president. And I think you naturally develop a bond with your mission president. Especially as, you know, missionaries tend to put their mission president on a type of pedestal that we tend to put our leaders on. And I definitely put him on one of those. And so I have great respect for him and a love for him. But he was, he was a businessman and he was not a naturally affectionate person. I remember, you know, not physically affectionate. You know, you would have to ask him for a hug after an interview. It's one of the things I remember from My mission, he was just very, you know, down to business. He was very much about filling out the social form and getting your numbers in by 9:30 on Friday nights and things like that. That that's how, that's how I gauged my worth. You know, not in all ways, but in a lot of ways that's how I gauged my worth to him as a missionary was through those kind of things. And my interaction with him towards the end of my mission was when, I mean, I felt like I was really reaching out to him for some compassion in a very literal way, and it was not reciprocated. And that's where I just kind of got really angry and frustrated and where I kind of lost a little bit of that kind of reverence, I guess you would say, for him.

Fiona Givens [01:00:27] And then also you mentioned, as you were struggling with your faith crisis, you know, going to your bishop and then your stake president, and it seems to me that, well, describe that a little more for us, if you wouldn't mind. The meeting with your first bishop seemed to make matters worse, whereas the meeting with your stake president following that is different. Do you mind extrapolating?

James Patterson [01:00:54] Absolutely. I mean, the whole time I'm going through all this, like we talked about before, I'm feeling like I don't belong. Maybe I'm feeling like other people don't understand what I'm going through. I'm feeling, in a real way, I'm not feeling safe at church. And so, you know, when I emailed my bishop, tell him I'm not going to be able to teach seminary anymore, like I said, he wanted to meet with me to find out what was going on. And I kind of unloaded all my doubts and concerns and all the, like, real, you know, historicity problems I was dealing with. And that was really not what I was going into the meeting. I was going into the meeting to kind of get this sense of, do I, you know, can I really belong? Can I feel safe at church feeling the way I feel? Because I told him at the time, I was like, it's not like I'm not going to go and stand up at the pulpit and say all these things during fast and testimony meeting. That's, you know, that's not, that's not my intent, but I just, I just don't know if somebody like me really belongs at church feeling the way I feel. And his specific reaction was just, I mean, his, his tone was generally kind of just casual during the meeting, which I took as a little dismissive. And when I finally, you Know, we talked about a lot of stuff. We probably talked for over an hour. And then I just, you know, he was like, is there anything else you want to talk about? I just said. But I just said, well, there was just one main question that I came into this meeting with, and that was, do you think someone who feels the way I do and thinks the way I think belongs here at church? And I was expecting him to, you know, lean into me and, you know, quiet his voice and tell me how much he loved me and how much. How welcome I was. But it was kind of the opposite reaction. He sat back and he kind of threw his head up in the air and he laughed. And I was really taken aback at first, and I guess examining what he was really trying to say, it kind of makes sense because he laughed a little bit. And then he said, if, you know, of course, you know, that's. It's almost like that's a silly question to ask. And I understand what he was trying to communicate, but his, you know, the whole way and, you know, future interactions with him just made me feel just not safe. That's. That's the best way I can kind of describe it. And then. But then to kind of juxtapose that with my interactions with the Stake president and now with my new bishop, we're just. It was kind of like. It was kind of like night and day to me.

Fiona Givens [01:03:33] I thought it was also very interesting when you said in the middle of the fast and testimony meeting that you couldn't feel that you could bear your testimony and how. As I had actually misspelled it as I was writing it down, but I just realized that you couldn't. You can bear it, like, make it bear. And an authentic testimony. Because you also mentioned about being authentic.

James Patterson [01:04:01] Right.

Fiona Givens [01:04:01] An authentic testament does require some type of vulnerability. And I think we'll probably go into this. But this is something that Terrell and I talk about in the book. This. This culture of certainty we have adopted, which is really very destructive because it prohibits authentic testimony in many cases, because not all of us. I don't know how many of us can actually go to the podium and say, you know, concretely certain things. And, you know, that's. That's. That's been a great concern to Terrell and myself. When God doesn't seem to differentiate between knowledge and belief, you know, to some is given to know that Jesus is Christ, to some is given to believe on their words. And so there needs to be, I think, some room to move. So, you know, when you said that you couldn't. But that struck me as so tragic. And I just wonder how many people listening feel exactly the same way you do. But for me, I feel that there is always an element of risk and an element of courage now, particularly within this culture of certainty in which we've been swimming for so long, that we bear authentic testimony, because I don't feel that the Holy Spirit can bear witness to something that is inauthentic. But the idea of bearing, it's like baring your soul really, is now the sort of place where we need to go, where we can't just, you know, shoot off platitudes at the podium, because nobody, I think, is feeling anything with the cliches coming out. But that really struck me that we are. That we are now entering this sort of era of vulnerability where we're sort of reclaiming the idea of bearing testimony as inauthentic. I hope I believe that sort of thing. Yeah. Well, those were my two questions. Please do answer that. That would be lovely to just.

James Patterson [01:05:53] I think the. And the interesting thing for me in that moment was I was. I was sitting in, you know, testimony meeting, trying to run through my mind some way that, I mean, I could get up there. And the only way that I felt like I could even, like, boil it down to something that wouldn't be threatening to anyone or anything would be to stand up and give the classic testimony that I would usually give. I know the church is true. I know the Book of Mormon is true. I know Joseph Smith is a prophet. But replace no with believe. And I was sounding it out of my mind, and it still sounded so incredibly foreign. And I felt like if I stood up and I said, I believe the church is true. I believe that, you know, President Monson is a prophet, it would still sound so foreign that I would have so many eyes on me, and I would be so uncomfortable. And that. That thought that just changing that one word would change so much for me is what just kind of just in a way devastated me. And so I think there's a real point to that, that, you know, as I've tried to examine the way that I bore my testimony in the past, and like you said, mostly speaking in platitudes, and since my faith crisis started, I still haven't bore my testimony to church because I'm still searching for the right words to say and the right way to say it. But that feels so much more real to me to think that I want to really come up with the best words that I can find to Express how I feel about things. That feels so much more real to me than. Well, I guess, you know, I guess. I guess I should bear my testimony so I'll get up and say the same things I've said before. You know, this new way of thinking about it feels so much more real to me. And so I know when I do get up and do it, it's going to be a more uplifting, a more profound experience for me than the other times that I've done it before.

Honest Testimony and What Faith Can Look Like

Fiona Givens [01:07:49] What did you think of our friend's testimony? Non. Testimony that we have written in the book, which essentially she said, you know, I don't know anything. She's been a member of the church ever since she was a child, has had no belief in God, has struggled with all of that and stood up and essentially bore an on testimony, but then said, you know, I know when I read the scriptures, you know, the atmosphere in our home changes. Did you find. Did that resonate with you? I felt.

James Patterson [01:08:20] I read that and I remember thinking if I was sitting in testimony meeting and I heard that kind of testimony, I would stand up and I would clap. Because, I mean, I just. And it's not just from a. You know, it's a different kind of testimony to hear.

Terryl Givens [01:08:32] It's.

James Patterson [01:08:32] It's like you, like you were talking about earlier. It's this feeling of being vulnerable with your thoughts and your beliefs and sharing that with other people and being able to do that and be accepted in spite of. Maybe there's people in the audience who don't think exactly the same way you do, and yet you're still accepted. That's beautiful. To me. That's. That's what testimony meaning to me should be more about.

Fiona Givens [01:09:00] Yeah, no, I'm. I hope we're there when you obey your testimony. Please tell us. We'll drive up. But, but no, seriously, seriously, because I, you know, I want to be there for the applause because there are. There are so many people in. It's like the little girl in the math class who finally raises her answer and says to the teacher, I have no idea what you're talking about. And everybody else in the class is going, oh, thank goodness. I thought I was the only one.

James Patterson [01:09:27] You know, such a sense of bravery in that, that, that.

Fiona Givens [01:09:30] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think, I think, I think your congregation is full of people. I think every congregation is full of people who would just rejoice, you know, as, oh, I'm not on my own. Okay, so this is. Okay, the. I wasn't struck by lightning and the chapel didn't collapse.

John Dehlin [01:09:47] Right.

Fiona Givens [01:09:48] So, yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:09:51] Great questions, Fiona.

Fiona Givens [01:09:53] Oh, thank you.

Terryl Givens [01:09:54] Thank you.

Fiona Givens [01:09:54] John

John Dehlin [01:09:57] Terrell, any quick reaction or question regarding James's ringing endorsement?

Terryl Givens [01:10:02] No, I'm, I'm delighted to hear that. What we had to say resonated with him and I was glad to hear him focus in particular on the notion of faith is a choice because to my mind, that is kind of a master paradigm shift that at least in my life, rescued me from my own, I guess, trek through the wilderness of doubt. And I think it's an important way of rehabilitating the importance of faith in our tradition.

John Dehlin [01:10:36] Excellent. Well, James, I loved your story and I'm super excited now to, to jump into part two in just a second where we will discuss with, with Terrell and Fiona kind of the main, the main points or the main premises or foundations or pillars of their wonderful book, the Crucible of Doubt, Reflections on the quest for Faith. So stay tuned for part two.

James Patterson [01:11:06] Mormon Stories is production of the Open Stories Foundation. Music for today's episode was provided by the Lower Lights. Check out the rest of their music by visiting thelowerlights.com or on facebook@facebook.com thelowerlights. Heart, anger or mouth I draw myself apart searching my soul.

Part Two Begins: Origins of The Crucible of Doubt

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 496

James Patterson [00:00:00] Hi, this is James Patterson, Mormon Stories podcast producer. Did you know that Mormon Stories relies entirely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep Mormon Stories alive? Please consider becoming a monthly subscriber right now by texting the word Mormon to 41444 on your smartphone, you'll receive a text message directing you to a donation page where you can set the amount and frequency of your contribution. Again, that's the word Mormon to 41444 to donate now. You can also donate by visiting MormonStories.org and thanks for your support.

Terryl Givens [00:00:36] Lead kindly light, amid encircling gloom Lead thou me on. The night is dark and I am far from home Lead thou me on.

John Dehlin [00:00:56] Hello and welcome to part two of my Mormon Stories interview with Fiona and Terrell Givens about their new book, the Crucible of Reflections on the Quest for Faith, published by Deseret Book. We just finished a really wonderful hour with James Patterson, a friend of mine, kind of a newer friend of mine, who talked about his journey. And James, I would have to say that your journey really is in many ways, you know, very familiar and very typical of the things that many people face. From the, you know, the early shocks to the, you know, from the shelf to the early shocks to the, you know, to the stages of grief, to the oscillations back and forth, to the eventual rage and anger and disillusionment. I just really resonated with your story. And so if those of you haven't listened to it yet, I really recommend it. And now I would like to dive into the book the Crucible of Doubt, published by Deseret Book. And I actually want to begin before the birth of the book. Terrell, this is going to, I'm sure you're going to remember this. I remember one of the most stunning things from our interview. And our interview, I believe, was a few years ago. Does anyone know how many years ago the interview was? Terrell?

Terryl Givens [00:02:34] I've lost track.

John Dehlin [00:02:35] James?

James Patterson [00:02:35] Two or three years, I believe. It's 2012.

John Dehlin [00:02:40] Yeah, two or three years ago. And Tara, one of the, one of the things you told me that really stunned me was at the time you told me that it was your understanding that Deseret Books was not willing for some reason to stock all of your books. Do I have that story right?

Terryl Givens [00:03:00] Yeah. Yeah. The very first book, Viper on the Hearth, was rejected because they assumed by virtue of the title that it was an anti Mormon book. Right. At least that was one explanation given to me by somebody there in the corporate headquarters. And I don't know that there was any particular reason. I mean, I think Deseret just tends to stalk their own publications for the most part with a few others, but they tend not to stock a great deal of material that appeals to a more scholarly clientele. And I know that Sherry Dew has made efforts in recent years to address that deficit, so I've been very pleased to see that.

John Dehlin [00:03:44] Yeah. And I remember feeling really impressed that you. I mean, I think as a writer and, you know, your books have been published by Oxford University Press and, you know, really reputable press, I just remember thinking, wow, I would be kind of hurt and offended. And you were still sort of holding fast to the iron rod in spite of that, what would be perceived as a setback. And so.

Terryl Givens [00:04:09] Well, yeah, it did feel like a slight. It seemed rather ironic that as Mormon authors were breaking into Oxford in a significant way, that the church publisher and bookstore wasn't supporting that effort.

John Dehlin [00:04:23] Yeah. So talk to us about how that changed a little bit, and take us then to the work of the Temple Observatory Group and kind of your travels around, because I'm guessing that all of that is what led to this book. Is that true?

How Widespread Is Doubt in the Church?

Terryl Givens [00:04:41] Yeah, Well, I guess it's kind of a long, tortuous path that got us to this book. But, you know, I had conversations with Sherry Dew a few years ago at the time that they weren't carrying any of my books. And it was shortly thereafter that she approached me and asked me if I would write a book for a general audience. And as I turned to start writing the God who Weeps, I realized that most of the best ideas were coming from Fiona and that it was hard to tell where her ideas ended and mine began and vice versa. So we decided to do it as a collaboration. So we were really thrilled that Deseret was as supportive as they were of that effort, even though it took a rather unconventional approach to LDS culture and thought and belief. And it was subsequent to that book that I was invited to give a Fireside in Palo Alto. And the choice of what to speak about was left to me. And so at the time, we had various members of our own family who were struggling with faith challenges, and I had written a letter to one of them, and I decided at that point to take the letter and present it as the Fireside. And so that was where I first read in public the letter to a doubter, which had actually been written and addressed to a personal family member. And the reaction to that was so overwhelming, both at the time on site and through the Internet. And Communications we received. In days and weeks following that, I realized that this was like the great elephant in the room that nobody wanted to address was the fact that a number of recent developments having to do with open access to the archives and Internet developments, and perhaps also just the fact of a new, younger generation in the church who was less prone to accept received wisdom and traditional answers, all were precipitating a number of. I don't like to use the word faith crisis, but I'll say faith challenges that were fairly, I think, unprecedented in volume. So Fiona and I began to give firesides on the topic. And generally, once it was known that we were willing to offer these firesides, we did them by invitation. We didn't put ourselves forward, but were asked to do these by a number of local leaders throughout the British Isles. And the response was really quite phenomenal, Overwhelmingly positive. And the most common response that we got to these firesides was, thank heavens that we finally have a place and a time where we can just express honest questions and doubts and perplexity and talk about it. So it wasn't that we had any particularly good answers, but it was that we tried to create a setting in which it was appropriate and helpful to talk about these issues in a constructive way. So Fiona and I did these throughout England and Scotland and Ireland, and then we came back to the States and we invited Richard Bushman to join us in doing some stateside. And again, the reaction was, for the most part, very, very favorable. And so out of those efforts grew our decision to turn the Letter to a Doubter into a full length book, which is the crucible of doubt.

John Dehlin [00:08:20] And so did you propose it to Deseret book, or did they ask you to do it?

Terryl Givens [00:08:24] Fiona, do you remember? I think we ran it by them. Not sure that they would want to broach a subject as fraught with minefields as this one, but. But they did.

John Dehlin [00:08:36] Yeah. Okay. And, you know, one of the questions from the listeners was, did they provide any ground rules? You know, to what extent did they have a heavy hand in editing? Did the correlation committee kind of seize the book? I don't expect you to say anything that you'd be uncomfortable to say, but what are you guys able or interested in saying about those types of questions?

Terryl Givens [00:09:01] Fiona, you want to take that?

Fiona Givens [00:09:02] Yeah. No, I don't think it had to go through the board, of course, the Deseret board. I think there was some concern about whether the book would raise faith challenges, challenges to the faith, or whether they would assuage faith challenges. So I think that was a sticky wicket, but otherwise there was no heavy handedness. I worked primarily with the editor, who was a very sensitive reader and very much aware that there were two audiences that were being addressed. One was the sort of faithful membership who either don't have questions, haven't entertained questions, or who have shelved questions. And then the audience with whom we are primarily engaged is those who are really struggling. And it was just a really interesting exercise trying to coalesce the subject matter so that it would help create empathy among those who, who have no problems with their faith at all. I mean, there are people whose gift is that of faith and. But develop an empathy, hopefully, for those who are struggling and create a safe place for those within the pages of the book for those who are. So it was actually a really edifying process, I think uplifting. And the general consensus from Deseret book was that that this, this book was needed and that while a number of people working for Deseret didn't have challenges, they felt much better about their faith. In fact, one, one person with whom I talked said that she had shelved. I think we do a lot of shelving in our church. She. Well, I think actually in every faith tradition things are shelved. But she had been able to take those things off the shelf, re. Examine the puzzle and put the pieces into an order with which she was now much more comfortable than she had been. So that. And that was typical of the response we got from the leadership at Deseret. So they felt, they felt that this, it was very important that this book come out and at this time. So it's very encouraging.

John Dehlin [00:11:31] Do either of you and Fiona, your anecdote about Terrell asking the question in Hyper's group leader and having all the hands go up speaks to this. But, you know, do either you have a sense for how serious, you know, of a problem this is? I hear everything from. This is really just a very small segment of the church's population. It's within a very narrow band. Maybe, you know, maybe one or two in every ward. But, but, you know, it's, it's not as big of a deal as people want to make it. And then of course, you have other people with their histrionics basically saying that the sky is falling and the church is hemorrhaging and that everything, you know, that the church is going to not exist in 20 years. You know, I guess. Do either of you have a sense for how serious of a problem this is in the church? And you know, do we have a sense for any conversations with church leaders about the sense of gravity or non gravity, you know, involved.

Terryl Givens [00:12:36] Well, the problem is that we don't have any hard statistical evidence, and we can't because there aren't any metrics that are measurable. In other words, the only statistics that the church keeps have to in this regard have to do with how many people ask to have their names removed from the records of the church. But there's something about today's younger generation where most of these faith crises seem to be occurring that they're not going to go through that bureaucratic process of asking to have their names removed. In most cases, they will either lapse into inactivity, form parts of new communities like New Order Mormons or semi dissident communities, or marginalized groups that get together on websites and chat rooms and find solidarity with another. So there are all of these kind of underground communities that are a manifestation that there is great perplexity and engagement with faith challenges. But all evidence ultimately is going to be anecdotal. But our experience certainly convinces us that there are overwhelming number of people who are personally or indirectly affected by this.

Fiona Givens [00:13:40] I think also a lot of it is geographical. I think there's a huge, in the west, western part of the U.S. i think the numbers of people who are being challenged are big because, and particularly with this younger generation, because the Internet, social media is the way everybody connects with each other and that's how you transfer information and it comes very quickly. But also Europe, for a lot of Europeans who are also keeping touch with people and up to date on the Internet, this is an issue. So it's not just the United States and our particular ward, probably not so many. We're a rural ward in, in Central Virginia and for the most part. Well, I think, I don't think anybody in the ward has heard of the latest issues, quite honestly coming up. So, you know, I think a lot of it is geographical, but I do agree with Terrell that it is larger than we think.

John Dehlin [00:14:45] So you feel like a lot's at stake?

Fiona Givens [00:14:48] I do, Yes, I do. You know, my personal feeling is that the Lord wants as many people in his circle of influence as possible. So my feeling is that he wants that umbrella kept as wide as it possibly can be.

John Dehlin [00:15:07] Right. And you guys may or may not have information on this, but one of the most common questions I get is, do the brethren, number one, know about the issues that are causing people the doubt? Number two, do they know the extent to which this is a problem? And three, to what extent do they really get it and care versus sort of, are they kind of out of touch and maybe not really having a grasp of what's going on? And it's a tough question. It may be speculation. Feel free to just say you don't know. But I just. Listeners ask that all the time, so I thought I'd ask.

Terryl Givens [00:15:45] Oh, I think there's no question that the brethren are fully aware of and they get the seriousness of the problem. I think the evidence of this is the fact that we have the Gospel topics web pages that have come out and very directly and honestly addressed key issues in church history, that the manuals are being revised, that the Joseph Smith Papers project is proceeding apace with unprecedented openness and transparency, that they recently approved the council of 50 minutes to be published. So I think it's clear to me, at least, that these are all the church's way of responding to these developments by saying the solution is greater openness and transparency.

John Dehlin [00:16:30] Yeah. And this book is obviously evidence of that as well. Okay, so, Fiona, you talked a tiny bit about audience. I'm eager to jump into the book, but I'm just going to ask this one last question. You know, I thought about how to. How to conduct this interview. You know, I could put on my. My sort of faithful believing hat and just sort of explore. This book is just one huge celebration of awesomeness. And that's kind of what James communicated in his ringing endorsement last hour. Because if I'm wearing my sort of thoughtful, faithful believing hat, you know, I'll just say, I'll just compliment this book like, it's rich, it's powerful, it's meaningful, it's poetically written, beautiful prose. It's actually incredibly accessible from the standpoint that it's not a long read yet it's so dense with insight that you can read a chapter in literally five or ten minutes. And yet by the time you're done with this book, it feels like a game changer. So, you know, from a thoughtful, faithful perspective. The other thing I have to say is that it really is truly a groundbreaking book if you consider the publisher, if you consider our history. It is just sort of standing in the middle of the huge challenges and with. With a lot of grace and power and wisdom and insight. It's. It's taking the issues head on. It's not some expose. It's not going into detail on the problems. But I don't think that's neither necessary or the point of the book. But I. I say all those things to say that for those, you know, for the. For those who are wanting to believe and for those who are trying to find a way to hang on, I think it's a groundbreaking masterpiece.

Fiona Givens [00:18:37] John, I just want to interrupt you. That was so kind of you. Thank you so much. And I know I'm speaking for Terrell as well. That was just such a beautiful thing to say. We felt that we were taking a risk with this book because we do feel that we are tackling head on issues that are disconcerting. And so to have your endorsement as well as James is is really absolutely, quite marvelous. You've been so kind. Thank you. Thank you very much.

John Dehlin [00:19:13] My pleasure. And it's. And it's well earned. Now, my. My praise. I mean, now, now I am going to ask a question about the audience because I think you both probably know as well as I do that there's a group of. We'll just say, you know, struggling Mormons or post Mormons or ex Mormons, where the frustration or the doubt or the disbelief is so incredibly grave and forceful that there's probably pretty much no text or prose that could be written in defense of faith that would be satisfactory to, you know, to the certain types of people. And I'm. I'm not even meaning to distance myself, because I can put that hat on, too. And if, If I read the book from that perspective, to be honest, there, you know, there are things that made, you know, I started feeling frustration and anger from that perspective. And really, it's from a. A disbelieving paradigm, because people can get to the point where they just. They're angry at God. They don't believe in God anymore. They don't believe in a literal Jesus anymore. They see the church as corrupt or as evil or whatever it is. And so for them, the fact that you might be quoting scripture or quoting general authorities or speaking out in defense of faith might even make them more angry than they were before. And so I wonder if you've thought about that particular audience and whether you would say, like, this book really isn't for that audience or. No, we wrote it for them, too. Do you have any insight into the extent to which this book has kind of a bracketed target of those who are still within the realm of faith and commitment and openness versus there being sort of a point that they can go past where you would say, yeah, probably not. Probably not for. For you?

James Patterson [00:21:19] Well, we'll.

Fiona Givens [00:21:19] We'll soon find out.

John Dehlin [00:21:20] Okay.

Fiona Givens [00:21:21] Because angry, angry people are not shy about letting their hurt and anger be shown. And that's fine. I Think there is this wonderful piece where we haven't have in that I think as, as a culture, Mormons are raised to be deferential to God and that anger is a bad thing in relationship to God. But I think God can handle anger and shouting and yelling at him quite well. So I'm hoping that there are parts in that book that are actually not from the brethren and not scripture, that are actually other people speaking outside our faith tradition that would appeal to those people who just simply cannot hear scripture anymore, cannot hear words of the brethren anymore without being angry because they feel so betrayed and their pain is such that it's just not going to fly, that hopefully that they can hang with the book. You know, just getting from one non Mormon to another because I think our non Mormon writers have really important things to say. So this isn't just an issue about Mormonism really. We're a new church, a young church. I'm pretty sure that the Catholic Church was in this very same position, the same predicament about the same time. It seems like a number of sociologists are saying that we're tracking. So I think that they would be. That's why they had all of these different councils is just try and sit down and sort out the theology. And we don't have a systematized theology as yet. But the idea that other faith traditions have gone through this. I think my mother was a very, very orthodox Catholic. And I have to tell you, when all of the scandal broke about pedophilia, it really shook her. It really, really shook her. But to her day, she just went through her morning liturgy and she hung onto what she believed in, God, even though her faith in the church, the institutional church, had been severely shaken. And I think many Mormons are in that very same case where their faith in the institutional church has been so traumatized that it is very difficult for them to bear with anything at all. And so no, we, we do hope, and I suppose this is my plea is like, you know, I know you're going to get angry. Just skip over the scriptures. If you're. As soon as you come to a general authority or a scripture, just jump and then just look for the, look for the ones who are obviously not lds.

John Dehlin [00:24:30] Yeah. And I definitely didn't mean to mischaracterize the book because for me some of the most beautiful parts are when you're quoting from poetry or literature or non LDS religious scholars. It's certainly at least I'd say half non LDS sources from which you draw inspiration.

James Patterson [00:24:49] So, okay, John Can I kind of. Can I jump in just with a comment just as you both were talking? I think from my perspective, I think I just want to acknowledge that I do marketing and advertising for a living. So I tend to look at everything from that angle at some point and in some way. And I fully acknowledge and was aware as I was reading and as I've been thinking about the book, that if you had to identify a primary target audience for this book, I would fall smack dab into that. From my perspective as I read the book, you know, I was, I was. You know, I feel like as we talk about, you know, putting things on our shelves when you. I feel like, at least for me, when I would put something on my shelf, it's almost like it would take. It would take a little piece out of me. And my searching and my yearning was trying to fill that hole that I had created. And I had all these holes that I was trying to fill. And this fit so well into that hole that I'd created. That's why I had such an experience with that. But that's me. And different people resonate. Different things resonate with different people. And so I just wanted to make that point that I fully acknowledge that I went into reading. The book is probably kind of the primary target audience that this book was kind of designed for. And, you know, it's. It's going to resonate differently to different people because the fact of the matter is we are all different people.

John Dehlin [00:26:32] Sure, you were in the sort of struggling, but. But not. But not done right.

James Patterson [00:26:37] And I was. I was primed. I really was primed for exactly what this book said and how it said it.

Core Premises of the Book

John Dehlin [00:26:42] Yeah. Okay, so I'm ready to dive into the major premises of the book, but I want to, because I don't want. I want to. I want to try and keep some people that I think we might otherwise lose there. A lot of people really fastened on to the description in Amazon about the fact that people's testimonies are based on false premises. Possibly. And it's true. Each chapter of this book, as I read it, sort of takes on maybe a less mature or maybe even a possibly completely false premise or perspective or paradigm that then. That. Then I think both of you try and offer maybe a more mature or a more reasoned or more accurate perspective or a safer, solid foundation upon which to build. But many people immediately interpreted that very defensively, as if to say, oh, yeah, you're doing it wrong. And for somebody who's really been struggling, you know, these people are oftentimes you know, they consider themselves to be some of the best and brightest in the church. Marlon Jensen has used those terms. They studied, they prayed, they were APs on their mission. They were leaves, presidents, bishops, you know, they don't want to hear, you know, just read the scriptures and pray. They don't want to hear you were the problem. Because many of them feel like if they built their foundation on weaker or false premises, that it was the very sort of church leadership that encouraged or nurtured those false premises. And so to not lose anyone from the start. Terrell, do you have anything to say so that that sort of opening salvo, if you will, isn't perceived as sort of blaming the victim? Does that make sense?

Terryl Givens [00:28:38] Sure, sure. Well, I think that to the extent that we keep offering the same solutions, you just need to pray more, you need to read your scriptures more often, you need to have your family. Who means. I think we both trivialized the problem. And that actually can be a form of blaming the victim. I mean, no less an authority than Elder Dallin Oaks once gave a General Conference talk in which she related the story of his close friend who had read the Book of Mormon. And from Elder Oaks perspective, he had done everything enjoined by Moroni in chapter 10, and yet had found himself utterly unable to receive the confirmation of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon that he was seeking. He gave that as an example of the fact that the gospel doesn't always work according to simple formulas. And so I think what Fiona and I are trying to do here is to take a non traditional approach by saying maybe instead of just suggesting that you work harder, that you reconsider some of the premises and kinds of questions that you're asking and see if there isn't a more fruitful lens through which you can view these difficulties. And so we try to offer this in a spirit of humility by simply suggesting, look, we have had our faith challenges and we have found that these different approaches to these different paradigms have proved a more fruitful way for us to pursue our spiritual journey. And we offer them in the hopes they may do the same for others.

John Dehlin [00:30:07] But not out of a spirit of, you're doing it wrong and it's your fault.

Terryl Givens [00:30:10] We certainly don't. I don't think there's anything in the book that would. Could honestly be characterized in such a way.

John Dehlin [00:30:18] Yeah, I think we'll just. I think we'll just get more people because I think maybe that little Amazon quote might have struck some people the wrong way and I just want to. I want to grab them and keep them versus have them turn off because of that.

Fiona Givens [00:30:30] No, John, you're absolutely right. And the thing is that these people to whom you're referring and hopefully are listening, have been so beaten over the head with these platitudes, if you just do this or do that, things will get better, therefore it's your fault. We're hoping to validate the. The reason that they're feeling this way is because they've been hit by these paradigms again and again and again and they haven't worked. It didn't work for me.

Terryl Givens [00:31:03] Yes, darling, Can I give an example of this? We talk exceedingly, frankly, for example, about the kind of history that dominated the 20th century, and we lay the blame firmly at the feet of the historical department. But at the same time, we tried to understand the world from which people like Joseph Fielding Smith, who was church historian for 50 years, came and the fact that he's one generation removed from the horrors of Carthage.

John Dehlin [00:31:33] So, yeah, I just have to say, I love the part where you talk about Joseph F. Smith, like, standing over the body of his dead father at like age 8 or 9.

Terryl Givens [00:31:41] Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:31:42] That really drove home to me kind of the. The multi generational trauma. You know, I've honestly viewed Joseph Fielding Smith as somewhat of an enemy, but dang it, if I can't put myself in his shoes and his father's shoes and at least have a little bit of empathy for the multi generational trauma that they likely experience, that I'm not much of a psychologist, I can tell you that.

Terryl Givens [00:32:07] Well, exactly. And I'll say at this point that that was the page that probably made the editors at Deseret the most uncomfortable. And one of the comments we got back, you can't blame the prophet and church historian for this. And we responded by saying we're not blaming, we're seeking to understand what his perspective was.

Fiona Givens [00:32:29] Yeah. And I think it does seem, you know, you have either two ways to go. You can either blame him because he was church historian for 50 years and he essentially, the history on which we have all been raised leaders and, you know, all of us is his history. But if we understand, as you so correctly said, this generational trauma and that his, in his eyes, he needed to protect his family. And so anything that would discredit or would make his family appear badly was eradicated from the history. When one understands that, it doesn't justify what, what he did, but it certainly makes it more reasonable. We can empathize, we can put ourselves in his shoes and say, well, you know, what would I do if I were in that situation and the outside world was really, really bad and they had killed my uncle and my, well, my great uncle and my, my grandfather? One can see that one would, would actually delineate history in a very white and black way.

John Dehlin [00:33:39] Yeah. Yep. And, and again, that, and that's, people are going to say, oh, we're just making excuses. And I'll just say, I do believe it's important to understand people's perspectives. And you guys do it beautifully here.

James Patterson [00:33:53] If I could jump in from just like the reader's perspective on the point of, you know, to me, as I was reading, you know, there's no feeling of blame by any means, even on me as a reader. I just, I felt this feeling from, from the outset of the book that it was an invitation to, I kind of look at it like almost looking through a kaleidoscope. I've been looking through this kaleidoscope in this certain fixed way my whole life, and it was almost like the book was an invitation to. Why don't you just try, why don't you try turning that kaleidoscope just, you know, a few degrees to the left and see how that resonates with you. And it was just like those parts in the book like that, like we're talking about with Joseph Smith. I had never considered looking at in that way. And being able to turn the kaleidoscope in that way opened up new possibilities for me that helped me feel more safe. So it was just this kind of sense of an invitation to just look at, look at things a little differently.

John Dehlin [00:35:03] Yep. Yep. Very good. Okay, so let's dive in. I, I, I don't know if it'll take too long, but I, you know, one format is just to take each chapter and spend a few minutes just talking about the, the paradigm shift we're considering. So I'll start with you, Terrell. Is there anything you would want to say just about the, the introduction, which is paradigms and premises starting off on the wrong foot?

Terryl Givens [00:35:32] No, except in a way, this is a revisiting of your earlier question about where blame is. I would just add this thought that there is very little that we can do to alter the church, its history, its overall leadership, or culture. So all we're really left with is what kind of adjustments can we make that will bring us greater peace if we are seeking a way to remain within the boundaries of the church? And I guess that is why we're suggesting in the Introduction. And I love the analogy that James used. We would have used that if we'd have thought of it, that if you just try rotating the prism a little bit that these may turn out to be much more fruitful and peace bringing ways of thinking about your relationship to the Church.

John Dehlin [00:36:19] Excellent. Okay, well, let's move to the use and abuse of reason. Who, Fiona, do you want to start, start off tackling that one?

The Proper Role of Reason and Science in Faith

Fiona Givens [00:36:29] Well, we've definitely got our favorite chapters, the ones that definitely speak to us and this speaks to Terrell. So I'm going to let him go. He seems to, he's. He. His ideas seem to dominate, then mine pick up towards the end. But he loves this, this chapter. Yeah, you remember, you take, you go away, darling. You take it away. Yeah.

Terryl Givens [00:36:49] Okay. Well, we frequently get questions that have to do with how can you prove in any scientifically verifiable way that the claims of the Church are true? And part of what we're trying to suggest here is that there are very few of our major life decisions or commitments that rely exclusively upon the use of reason or that we would jettison if we can't articulate a rational defensive. I mean, we know that child abuse is wrong, but we don't know that it's wrong because of some rational calculus of good and evil. We know that it's wrong because our conscience tells us, because we revolt intuitively at the notion. So in this chapter we simply explore a few of the alternative ways of knowing that we use and that we rely upon to suggest that we need to escape the error of scientism, which is the fallacy that only science can offer access to the truth, or that it offers necessarily the best or most unimpeachable access to the truth.

John Dehlin [00:37:53] And this is going to be one of the, you know, a really inflammatory sort of just title for some people because there, there are some who sort of have said science is the best method we have at discovering truth. It's the most reliable emotion, can be manipulated emotion. You'll have any member of any faith using emotion to substantiate their own distinct and varying claims. And so if the Muslim or the Catholic or the Buddhist all use emotion to take their contrary points of view, then why rely at all on emotion or what we call the spirit? But sometimes we can't differentiate between the spirit and emotion. Why even rely on that? Reason and science are really, are really the most reliable foundations. What would you say in response to that?

Terryl Givens [00:38:49] I'd say, well, the unfettered and unchallenged use of Reason and science got us Hiroshima and euthanasia and mass killing and the Nazi regime. So the unfettered use of reason can be just as perilous as the unfettered, exclusive use of emotion. What we're arguing is that there needs to be a balance of the two in any wholesome and healthy life.

John Dehlin [00:39:13] And people are going to say but you know, but, but, but emotion got us the Crusades and, and you know, lots of atrocities done in the name of religion too. Right?

Terryl Givens [00:39:23] That's right. Sure, sure. Either one carried to the extreme.

John Dehlin [00:39:27] Okay, okay. And so it would. Would it be. Would it. Would you guys be, be willing to offer reverence and respect for the, the place of science just to make sure that people don't misunderstand what you're saying?

Terryl Givens [00:39:40] Absolutely. I think we make that caveat clear. I think we acknowledge the fact that science itself is a magnificent, splendid, clearly successful avenue to all kinds of great truths and understanding of the earth and everything in it.

John Dehlin [00:39:58] So you're not deniers of science or not of science.

Fiona Givens [00:40:02] We're huge promoters of science. In fact, Terrell, his alter life would be a scientist. That's all he reads in his free time are books on science. But no, I think what we're trying to do is, Terrell said, is, is sort of, you know, combine the two. So the mind and the heart, you know, one without the other is going to lead to, you know, absolutely absolute catastrophe. So I think, I think we've come to the point where we're now privileging science over conscience and that that can be very dangerous. We're trying to not privilege one over the other, that they both have a part to play in our lives.

John Dehlin [00:40:39] Okay.

James Patterson [00:40:41] All right.

John Dehlin [00:40:44] And, and you guys talk so beautifully just about there being something else, something higher, something that's calling us. And I, I will, I will confess that at times I, I have my atheistic or completely skeptical moments. But, but I think I still call myself a believer. I don't even know that I can give form to my belief. But it's because I, I still either want to feel or do feel that there still is something unknown out there, something magnificent or higher. And it seems like it seems like you both are refer to that often. Is that true? Something transcendent?

Fiona Givens [00:41:28] Yeah, no, absolutely. I think, you know, John, you are so like we are, I mean we certainly have our atheistic moments. I think everybody does. If was one's watching or listening to the news, I mean the tragedies in this world, you know, you're definitely going to get angry at the universe at one point or another, or you. You don't have a soul. But I think there is something transcendent. I may not have an opportunity later on. May I share my favorite quote? This is kind of my creed. Sort of like the basis, the fundamental of who I am. Please, would that be okay? It's from George MacDonald. It's a little long, but anyway, you. You decide whether you want to keep it. Whatever energies I may or may not have, I know one thing for certain that I could not devote them to anything else. I should think entirely worth doing. Indeed, nothing else seems interesting enough. Nothing to repay the labor but the telling of my fellow man about the one man who is the truth and to know whom is life, even if there be no hereafter. I would live my time believing in a grand thing that ought to be true if it is not, as facts can take the place of truths, and if these be not truths, then is the loftiest part of our nature a waste. Let me hold by the better than the actual. And fall into nothingness off the same precipice with Jesus and John and Paul and a thousand more who were lovely in their lives and with their death make even the nothingness into which they have passed like the garden of the Lord. I will go further and say I would rather die forevermore, believing as Jesus believed, than live forevermore as those that deny him. So that's sort of my creed. That's my fundamental. I find the truths of the Gospel to be so beautiful that even if they're not true, I would prefer to live my life as though they were true. I find that it adds richness and beauty to my life and a sense that my fellow man is a fellow traveler in mourning and suffering and struggling along with me. And it helps me to be less selfish and to turn outward rather than inward and assume that everybody is coming carrying crosses. I think that's beautiful.

John Dehlin [00:43:49] It is beautiful. Thank you for sharing. Kind of reminds me of kind of an Occam's razor. I'm sorry, a Pascal's Wager. But. But rooted more in love and beauty and then in sort of a calculus of consequence, right?

Fiona Givens [00:44:05] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:44:05] Yeah.

Fiona Givens [00:44:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:07] And that resonates with me. So I. I can say that as. As much as I'm struggling, I still. I still want to believe in something. And I still. Sometimes I miss a lot of the certainty and conviction that I had. But also I. I still long for that at times and sometimes even feel like I still am led by it. So love it. Okay. The role and function of the church. Or no, I'm sorry, of life. Of life's fundamental incompleteness. Chapter two. Who likes that chapter?

What We Expect Religion to Provide

Fiona Givens [00:44:42] Well, I think. I think we both do. I like it because I think a lot of us turn to religion, assuming that we're going to have peace. We're going to go into this in a little more detail later on, but we. We always assume that religion is actually. We want religion to be an opiate. Isn't that funny? Mark said it was, but so many of us actually want it to be, but it's not. It actually contributes to huge disequilibrium. I mean, Christ, I think, is the great example. You know, he's. He's talking some really, really unintelligible, very uncomfortable doctrine. And most of the disciples leave him and he turns to the apostles and they're the only ones left. And he says, well, are you going to go away, too? And it's like, okay, so we've really, really put everything on you, and we are really disturbed by what you have just said, but we don't know where to go. And that's what religion does. I think that's its purpose. It's not to offer an opiate to the masses. That's not what it's supposed to do. It's actually supposed to stir us up and keep us thinking and keep us a little off balance. Because it's only in the off balance that we are actually asking the questions we need to be asking. And diving. I like what Flannery o' Connor says, and it's in this chapter. Religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket. And of course it's a cross.

John Dehlin [00:46:14] And yet we have the scripture. Men are. That they might have joy. It's almost like men are. That they might have joy and discomfort.

James Patterson [00:46:20] Yeah.

Fiona Givens [00:46:21] No, I don't think you can have one without the other, to be quite honest. I think it's. I'm seeing this. It's. I think Terrell put it so eloquently that the. That the. The tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil and the Tree of Life are in the same orchard. They're not in different orchards. They're in the same. You know, so it's like, yes, there will be joy, but my experience of joy is that it's. It doesn't last.

Terryl Givens [00:46:49] It's.

Fiona Givens [00:46:49] You. You have to hang on to it. You have to remember it. But there will be moments of joy in our lives. We've all experienced moments of joy in our lives. It's not to say that life is going. It's going to take away life's difficulty and our fears that there is no hereafter, our fears that there may not be a God. I mean, I think those are. Those are important things with which we have to wrestle.

John Dehlin [00:47:14] Yeah. It almost reminds me of the premise of Buddhism, which is that life is suffering. It's. It. What would you say to somebody who said, well, you're kind of lowering the bar here. You're basically. You're basically telling people to lower their expectations.

Terryl Givens [00:47:29] That's exactly what we're talking.

John Dehlin [00:47:34] Yeah.

Terryl Givens [00:47:35] Yeah. It just.

James Patterson [00:47:36] I mean, I. Can I just jump in here and say that it's funny and I laugh because. But that's exactly why, you know, this specifically, this chapter resonated with me so much because that's, you know, that's exactly what it did for me. Do you. Do you mind if I just. I mean, I went through this and highlighted a bunch of places, but especially the parts that resonated with me, Fiona and Terrell. Would you mind if I just read some small excerpts?

John Dehlin [00:48:02] Hey, James, have Terrell or Fiona reference the page and have them read it if you want.

James Patterson [00:48:07] Okay, sure.

Fiona Givens [00:48:08] No, James. No, James, you go ahead and read it.

John Dehlin [00:48:10] Yeah, go ahead.

Fiona Givens [00:48:11] People are hearing us too much anyway.

James Patterson [00:48:13] All right, so this is on page 31 of the chapter we're talking about. And it says, we feel unmoored if our religion fails to answer all of our questions, if it does not resolve our anxious fears, if it does not tie up all loose ends. We want a script. And we find we stand before a blank canvas. We expect a roadmap, and we find we have only a compass. We have yet to learn. As the poet John Ciardi wrote, that clean white paper waiting under a pen is a gift beyond history and hurt in heaven. And that. I mean, I remember reading that and thinking that that concept had never truly entered into my soul. And when I read that, it was one of those fundamental paradigms that I had been expecting my religion to answer all of life's burning questions when perhaps that's not really its intent.

John Dehlin [00:49:13] And why lower expectations, Terrell?

Terryl Givens [00:49:17] Well, because if we come into church misunderstanding what the nature and the function and the design purpose of our church and our faith is, then we're doomed to disappointment from the get go. And the expectations that we have, I think, are often misdirected. And, you know, I say lower expectations half jokingly because it's really to change your expectations rather than lower them.

John Dehlin [00:49:47] Right.

James Patterson [00:49:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:49] Okay. The role and function of the Church of Sadducees and sacraments. Terrell, do you want to take that one?

Terryl Givens [00:49:55] Sure. You know, of course, what's really at stake in faith crisis is usually whether or not we're going to remain in the church. And so in some ways, this is one of the most fundamental topics to address is, well, what are we expecting out of the church? And we make two points in this chapter. One is that there is an indispensability to the kind of community that the Latter Day Saint faith offers. It was Dietrich Bonhoeffer who said that one form of cheap grace is to accept baptism without the discipline of community. And the Latter Day Saint church offers a unique kind of community in that it's the only community in Christendom today that is modeled on the family, in that we can't escape it. If you move into an area that's your ward, you can't shop around a church. And so that's the kind of discipline that I think Bonhoeffer was talking about, where we are forced into proximity with people that we don't love. Gene England talked beautifully about this in his essay on why the church is as true as the Gospel. But we also tried to add some other dimensions to this question. We point out, for example, that if you look at how the word worship first appears in both the Old and New Testaments. In the Old Testament, it appears in conjunction with Abraham's sacrifice of Isaac. In the New Testament, it first appears in conjunction with the offering, the gifts that the magi offered to the Christ Child. So in both cases, worship is associated with offering of gifts, not seeking of gifts. And yet we tend to go to church expecting to receive edification or inspiration or satisfaction. And what we're saying is that if we look to church more in terms of what it is that we bring to the altar instead of what we take home, we'd be less prone to disappointment and frustration.

Community, Ordinances, and Scripture

John Dehlin [00:51:45] Excellent. And two of the main. Two of the main sections you have in here are community and ordinances, right?

Terryl Givens [00:51:55] I didn't address the ordinances.

John Dehlin [00:51:57] Oh, no, no, it's good. And community is a beautiful thing. I think it's one of the. I think it's one of the most important, profound parts of the religious experience. I did, you know, you asked the question yourself on page 46. You say, but why should such formality be required? Meaning why do people need to have ordinances? You know, why can't God just bring everyone back without these sort of certificates or, you know, whatever word you want to use? And I do think that's a Question that a lot of people who are struggling have. They think about the tremendous expenditure of time and money and resources on these ordinances for people who have passed away that, that they may not, you know, may or may not ever really take advantage of. And I think some people kind of get caught up wondering, is that really necessary? You know, what would you say about ordinances?

Terryl Givens [00:52:57] Well, I think it's a terrific question, right? One time I got a call long distance from my daughter Lizzie, who put me on speakerphone to ask the question before herself and friends, dad, why do we believe in a God who's going to separate me from my family if I don't go through the hoops of the ordinances that he asks us to? And that seems to me as an absolutely fair question. But with a little reflection, one should begin to consider, well, wait a minute. Exactly what kind of a concept of heaven is implicit in that question. That presupposes that heaven is a place to which God could simply grant admission to whomever he wants. But the thing that is absolutely unique about the Latter Day Saint conception of heaven is that it is constituted entirely of relationality. That it is a sociality that constitutes the celestial kingdom. And if that's true, then it isn't simple adherence to moral requirements that qualifies us for heaven, but it is the constituting of particular kinds of heavenly relationships. And so it's our argument in this book, and this relies on a wonderful insight provided by a student of mine, Ryan Davis, who points out that ordinances may very well be the mechanism by which those relationships are constituted in at least two ways. One, because every ordinance in the church is associated with some kind of familial relationship. We are adopted into the family of Christ. We are sealed to our wives and our children. We constitute part of the chain of belonging that goes all the way up to Heavenly Father. And the second way is that it is precisely the arbitrariness of ordinances that is the point. Just in any loving relationship, my wife Fiona loves flowers. I think flowers.

Fiona Givens [00:54:49] I love flowers.

Terryl Givens [00:54:51] I think they're a ridiculous waste of money because in three days they'll be wilted and thrown out. But it's precisely because her request of me is arbitrary, that it is not grounded in any kind of rational utility. That when I offer her flowers, it builds our relationship, one constituted of interpersonal acts of generosity and giving an unquestioning service. And I see ordinances in the same light, and so does Fiona, that complying with the ordinances that Heavenly Father asks of us become the building blocks by which we establish a relationship with him. And therefore, that is how we build heaven.

John Dehlin [00:55:34] Wow, that's a. That's an interesting take. I've never heard that before. Thank. Thanks for sharing.

Fiona Givens [00:55:39] Yeah.

James Patterson [00:55:41] All right.

John Dehlin [00:55:42] The use and abuse of Scripture. Who. Who wants to take that one?

Fiona Givens [00:55:48] Oh, this is so much fun. We had to bring in Henry viii. It's actually Terrell's. It was absolutely brilliant. He said, you know, there's canon and canon, there's scripture, and then there's this loaded weapon. And Henry VIII was. Is such a great example. Essentially, we're talking about the fact that there are inconsistencies within the Scriptures. And I think, James, you happened upon them. This was probably part of your crisis, if I'm not mistaken.

James Patterson [00:56:19] Yeah, that was one of the points I brought up with my bishop. Of course, one of his first questions was, well, are you reading your Scriptures? And I said, yes, Bishop. That's part of the problem.

Fiona Givens [00:56:31] All right, so you're reading the scriptures really closely, which is just excellent. And I think Scriptures serve the same purpose as religion. They discombobulate. There are so many inconsistencies within scriptural text. And I think Henry VIII is such a. Such a wonderful example for this. So he. He wants to marry Catherine of Aragon, who is his brother's wife. And the Pope says, no, you can't do that, because this is sort of incestuous. And so what does he do? He has his, you know, scriptural know it alls, run to the Scriptures and say, look, find me something to help me out. So they did. And the Deuteronomic law says, if brethren dwell together and one of them die, her husband's brother shall take her to him to wife. Done. So he gets the papal dispensation to marry Catherine. And then some years later, you know, Anne Boleyn steps onto the stage, and Henry's tired of his wife, who hasn't produced any male heirs anyway. So he petitions the Pope for an annulment of this particular marriage. And he sends his scriptorians off to the Scriptures again. And in Leviticus 18, it stipulates that thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy brother's wife, which most commentators took to me, shall not wed your brother's widow. And so, you know, then we have this huge conflagration and, you know, the. Henry's reform and heads roll and one thing and another. So he used the canon. He used scripture as a weapon to get what he wanted because he could find the contradictory scriptures. So there is a There is a concern that we tend to take the scriptures literally. And Terrell and I don't believe that they should be taken literally. Even the Book of Mormon is, is said to be the most correct book. But in that record, you know, Nephi says, you know, there may be mistakes because, you know, if it's more correct, it could be less. There are the less correct books and then, you know, as only as far as it's translated correctly. Now, translated and transmission are used interchangeably. Yes. The Book of Mormon was transmitted through one editor, namely Joseph, although there were many editors within the Book of Mormon who were writing from various points of view. So I think this is generally a warning against reading the scriptures literally. You know, there are different ways God is portrayed in the scriptures. There are some passages who refer to him as having emotions and being feeling and regretting things that he has done. And then there are others who paint him as a genocidal maniac. And so, you know, it's again, I think it's, I think the scriptures are really, really good because they like religion. They force you to come to the table. Like, what are your experiences of God? Who is the God you want to worship? What qualities would he emulate? So I think that this, this chapter sort of follows that train of thought.

John Dehlin [00:59:53] And, and so we, you know, but, but, but there's still a reverence for Scripture. But you're basically saying that, that not, not to take it so literally, not to use it as a weapon and

Terryl Givens [01:00:10] not to expect them to be infallible. John. I think I'd add it's not just whether they're literal, but we can't expect there to be perfect compatibility or perfect consistency in the Scriptures. We find too many flagrant inconsistencies.

Fiona Givens [01:00:25] Sorry, darling, continue.

Terryl Givens [01:00:26] Yeah, so our point is that you have to read the Scriptures with a spirit of discernment and not as if you are a textual critic completely divorced from the workings of the spirit.

Fiona Givens [01:00:38] Yeah, because Joseph himself said that many plain and precious things have been removed from the Bible. And if they've been removed, nature pours a vacuum. So things that are neither plain nor precious have been placed in their. And I think again, this is a really important working of reason and your heart, as a heart and mind thing, they have to be working in tandem not only to go through religion. How does religion fit in my life? What is its role? But then also the same can be said with scriptures. I like the most common verb used as far as our engagement with scriptures is to search. It's really interesting verb why would you search? You know, you search because you've lost something or there's something there that is so deeply, you know, hidden between, you know, under heaps of ecclesiastical rubbish that you've got to. You've got to really search to find the truth therein.

Terryl Givens [01:01:43] So we think one of the problems is that we. We often find ourselves boxed into the same kind of indefensible corners that the fundamentalists are in. And there's no reason why we should be. Joseph Smith was never a scriptural literalist or fundamentalist. And we also get into trouble trying to understand the nature of God if we assume that everything in the Old Testament is equally inspired as the prophecy of Enoch, for example, in the Book of Moses.

John Dehlin [01:02:09] So I'm mindful of what my good friend Phil Barlow has said to me before. He says that some people look at the Church as this predominantly divine institution that occasionally is marred by the. The flaws of mankind. And he says he likes to flip that over and say that he. He sees the Church as like, comprehensively mortal and it basically represents man's attempt to understand the divine. And I guess I would ask you whether you think that applies to Scripture, because as a Mormon, the. What I absorbed was, okay, Scripture is truth and solid. And then if it's something that came in the modern dispensation, if it's something that the First Presidency has kind of ratified, then we can call that kind of secondary doctrine. And then there's all these general authority opinions that may or may not be considered. And it could be just the opinions. And I'm just wondering whether is what you're saying the Scripture also represents its author's best and editor's best attempts at understanding God, but not necessarily the explicit literal mind and will of God. Is that what you're saying?

Terryl Givens [01:03:23] Absolutely. And I think the Church itself has radically affirmed that position by virtue of the conduct of the Joseph Smith Papers Project, in which part of their task has been to show the repeated and consistent, consistent efforts of Joseph Smith and five or six additional editors to continually revise and change the revelations in an effort to achieve an ever greater harmony with what they believe. The original intent of the Spirit was in the revelatory act.

John Dehlin [01:03:59] And I thought it was bold of you to kind of reference that, because obviously I interviewed Sandra Tanner just, just a few months ago, and, you know, the critical perspective is just that Joseph was making it up as he went along and that he sort of brazenly and brashly would take something in the Book of Commandments and like, flip A revelation over and have something in the Doctrine and Covenants actually be the opposite of what the revelation was in the Book of Commandments. And some people show that as evidence that, that he's actually a false prophet. That when a prophecy doesn't come through, he just, he just flips it and that in reality he's just kind of making it up. Can you empathize with that perspective? And then, you know, what do you. Do you have an alternative perspective?

Terryl Givens [01:04:48] Yeah, I can't empathize with that perspective really, because if I were going to set myself up as a false prophet claiming to have the same kind of revelatory prowess as a Moses, I would make sure that the revelation I gave out the first time was the only one that anybody would ever see. I certainly wouldn't invite five collaborators to help me revise my own revelations. That seems to me a pretty transparent acknowledgment on Joseph Smith's part that even as a prophet he didn't have perfect access with unambiguous clarity to the mind and will of God, but that he was continually seeking a greater understanding of what he felt generally as spiritual impressions and intimations. Now there were a few more dramatic revelatory experiences apart from that, such as the first vision and section 76, but in general he worked by the general principle of a kind of inspiration and intimation. That seems to me it betokens honesty, not fraudulence. And in those times when he did utter prophecies that failed to find fruition, he was quite frank in acknowledging that he was only a prophet. When he spoke as a prophet. And some revelations were of God and some were of the devil. That seems to me a pretty frank acknowledgment of a capacity to fail.

John Dehlin [01:06:06] And maybe he didn't even know when one was one versus the other, even from his own mouth at times.

Terryl Givens [01:06:13] I think that may be true. I think that there were moments when he was very self questioning. And I think you see some of that in section 132 where the Lord is responding to Joseph's own sense of self doubt about his practice of plural marriage.

James Patterson [01:06:28] I think we can always. At least me personally and the way I kind of grew up in the church and my view of prophetic revelation is I boxed it into this. One specific category of this is obviously this must be how a prophet receives revelation. And I stuck it in that box and I didn't allow it to kind of have those different. It's kind of, you know, the bat phone analogy. Obviously the you know, the prophet must have a phone that he just picks up and is able to talk to God. And that's how it works. But I love this passage on page 56 that says, you know, the reason for scriptural imperfection should be obvious. Scripture comes to us through human conduits. This does not suggest a process by which a prophet invariably takes dictation as the Lord verbally recites a set of verses. The variety of prophetic utterance, the assortment of genres and categories, the array of circumstances and conditions under which Scripture came to be recorded and canonized admits no such simplistic view. So that, to my mind, takes prophetic revelation out of that box. And while that makes it much more complicated, it also helps. It helps me reconcile a lot of the problematic things that I saw, especially with Joseph Smith and other things.

John Dehlin [01:07:46] And I'll just end this part by just saying that if I put my believer desiring to believe hat on. What this chapter does for me is it basically says we are all in it together with all our flaws and frailties, trying to discern the Lord's will imperfectly. From ancient prophets to ancient Scripture to modern prophets, modern scripture, to every single last member of the church, faithful or struggling. We're all sort of democr, in a democracy, democratized sort of way. We're all doing our best to figure it out. There's a beautiful message of sort of democratization, I gather, from that.

Fiona Givens [01:08:30] No, I think you're absolutely right, John. I think, James, you're absolutely right. Most of us have grown up on the idea that, you know, you have the prophet God receives. You know, God gives revelation through this prophet. But Joseph is showing that this is a collaborative effort. You know, he may have received revelation, but, you know, he's. He acknowledges that he's working with a fractured, broken language. And his was particularly fractured and broken. You know, so. So he did rely on better educated men, people who had read more widely than himself, to help him pass it out and elaborate on this, to make the revelation as close to what he had experienced as possible. I think that shows an incredible humility on his part that he wasn't playing around. You know, he was genuinely asking questions. I need your help to get this the way I feel it sounded. And you're right, it's a democratizing thing. It's a very collaborative effort which most people are unaware of.

John Dehlin [01:09:39] Right. Well, I think one of the most important chapters in this book is the Perils of Hero Worship, which is chapter five. Who wants to jump in there? Because it's Obviously talking about how we. I mean, I thought it was a brilliant point that if you. If you tear down a hero of a human, the average human is going to just find some hero to replace it. It's almost like we have this irrepressible need to create heroes at even. Even at those. Those targets. Best attempts at trying to prevent us for. From. From making them. So. So who wants to tackle this?

The Dangers of Hero Worship and Prophetic Infallibility

Fiona Givens [01:10:19] All right. So, yeah, darling, why don't we both tackle this? We both really love this. Go ahead.

Terryl Givens [01:10:26] I'll do the Ring of Pharaoh next.

Fiona Givens [01:10:27] Okay. All right. Brilliant. I think we love to create heroes, and Thomas Carlisle thought that was a really great thing. You could see heroes is actually working as lightning rods, getting people to move in one direction or another. I think Dostoevsky was actually more insightful when he said that, you know, we're all struggling. We're all trying to eke out an existence on this miserable planet of ours for the most part. And we just need somebody. He says, you know, there was no greater need and comfort than to find some holy shrine or person to fall down before and worship him. And then this leads to the idea of responsibility. And when Christ says, you know, take my yoke upon you. Most of us would rather just ride in the cart, even though he promises that the yoke we can actually carry. And so it's sort of a release of the burden of responsibility. If you can create a heroic figure, then you can just put on him everything you don't want to take responsibility for, which, in an ecclesiastical sense, is really, really dangerous, because these are, after all, men. And when the Lord announced to Joseph that he was going to tell him why, he actually called him to be the prophet of this dispensation. You wonder what was going around in Joseph's head. It's like, oh, maybe he thinks I'm particularly amenable to truth, or I'm super humble or something. And the next morning, the Lord says, you know, I called you, Joseph, to be my prophet because I want to show the world what I can do with the weak things of it. So I sort of flattened any expectations he might have had of getting a, you know, confirmation that he was the best man for the job. And I think that works for all prophets and leaders and heroes, quite frankly, they all have feet of clay. And it's interesting that the Lord says, you know, don't rely on the arm of flesh. It's like, all of it. And I go to Winston Churchill, who is a huge hero for England and for most people, actually, quite Honestly, I don't think Europe would have got through the Second World War had it not been for him. But at the same time I do believe that he should have been tried as a war criminal at the end of the war because it was he personally who ordered the fire bombings of those German cities that had nothing to do with infantry or military stuff at all. So I think when you realize that our heroes and our prophets also have feet of clay, that that that puts the responsibility back on us. And Brigham Young actually said, and I'll just end with this quote, I'm more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by Him. I am fearful that they settle down in a state of blind self security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself with what the purposes of God let every man and woman know by the whispering of the spirit of God to themselves whether their leaders are walking the path the Lord dictates or not. He's squarely putting that responsibility back on our shoulders. You know, there's no cart riding for Mormons. We have to study everything out, everything we hear and read. It's a huge responsibility, but it's placed. And contemporary leaders of the church are saying the same thing. Reminded by Elder Todd Christophson that leaders of the church make mistakes. It's important for us to understand that our leaders are fallible. And I think the story of Gideon is so instructive in this regard. You know, he has this huge army. He's going to fight the Midianites, it's going to be great. And then God says no, actually not, because your armies are of equal size and strength. And therefore they'll think, people will think that if you win this battle it's because of your brilliant battle strategy. So we're going to pare this army down. So they pare it down to the 300, which I think is really interesting. The 300, there's a film of that name as I recall. But anyway, so he does and they win. And you know, does everybody say, wow, God won this battle? No, they go straight to Gideon and they want to worship Gideon because Gideon is the one they see. And so it's just really, really that we, we don't idolize our leaders that, because that is, that is a sure way for disappointment and hurt and a sense of betrayal to set in.

John Dehlin [01:15:37] And I felt like you, you really made a strong case. And I just have to read this one quote That I don't think I'd ever heard before. You have Joseph Smith saying, quote, I don't want you to think I am very righteous, for I am not very righteous. I, I'd never heard that quote before. And, and of course, Brigham Young's quote, I'd heard a bit more. So I, I love the case you make. It resonated with me. I think it's true. I, I have two follow up questions here. The, the first is that, you know, one of the things I wrote in the margins is kind of, you know, selective quotes kind of question mark. Because, because certainly you can find instances where Brigham Young also very much probably was grumpy or even punishing of people who ever crossed him. And maybe, you know, Joseph Smith excommunicating people who doubted or crossed him. And, you know, you could think about the church's own, you know, some of the covenants that we make in the temple that basically, that basically forbid us from being vocal critics of our leaders. And I can tell you I've tried really hard in the history of Mormon stories to not criticize the Brethren. But there came a time where a speech was given last fall that really upset me. Is it related to LGBT people and suicides that might happen? And I did publicly criticize a speech, and I got a really severe backlash. And so I guess I have a two part question. Part one is, haven't the Brethren themselves fostered a culture where adoration, where at a minimum, criticism is discouraged and punished, but sometimes where, when you think about everyone rising to their feet when President Monson enters the room where they've almost cultivated a culture of hero worship, that's part one of the question. And then part two of the question is, if we shouldn't worship them, does it then follow that it's okay to criticize them? So who wants to tackle that?

Fiona Givens [01:17:54] Well, I'll tackle the first part of the question and maybe the second, if I remember it, my concern about this issue arose when the books, the hagiographic biographies of the Brethren, started coming out, because it's very much a Gideon. I think Gideon is a leader. He's posed as a spiritual leader as well as a military leader, and he falls prey to the adoration. It is really, really rare for a person not to succumb to adulation and adoration. It's something we all wrestle with. And as a Catholic coming to Mormonism and leaving Catholicism where I could no longer see Christ because he was completely obscured by myriad of saints and particularly his mother, to a church where I Felt Christ was central and venerated. As soon as I saw those books coming out, I thought, no, this is wrong. This is wrong. Our attention should always be on Christ. Whatever it is, it should not be on anybody, no matter how good a life they've led. Mother Teresa should not be worshipped for the myriad good that she has done. Everything we do, everything our leaders do, should point us in the direction of the Christ. So when that stops happening or where the, where the emphasis is, where Christ's role, central role is de. Emphasized, then we are on a path that will cause great unhappiness. What was the second part of the question, John?

John Dehlin [01:19:43] Well, so I guess I'll ask that first part a little bit more directly. And that's. Don't you think the Brethren themselves in some ways have contributed to the, to the Brethren worship that, that so many Mormons fall privy to right now? And I know I'm touching on the second part of the question, which was, are we allowed to. To say criticisms or is that still taboo? And isn't that part of the problem?

Fiona Givens [01:20:13] Absolutely. I think insofar as they allow these books to be written about them, either posthumously or while they are alive. Absolutely. Adds to that whole culture of adulation and idol worship. And I mean, they may not be doing it consciously. It may be, you know, this is, you know, to help church members feel stronger or whatever. But most of us church members are just struggling. We want to see real people struggling with us. I mean, Terrell, that was a beautiful talk in General Conference that you heard. Can you talk about that? Because I think it was a priesthood meeting.

Terryl Givens [01:20:57] It was a priesthood meeting about three years ago where a Latin American 70 gave a talk. And I think it was in the priesthood session in which he related what ended up being a really poignant and yet hilarious story of trying to get his family together for a family home evening. And as all of us can identify with this, where he's trying to gather the scattered kids and they're busy and voices get raised and it escalates and pretty soon people are yelling and tears and his daughter runs into a room and barricades herself. And then he realizes the pathetic irony of him as a father trying to assemble for family home evening, and he's ended up hurting and alienating everybody. Well, it was the mere fact of the confessional honesty of that story told in General Conference that struck me as almost without any parallel or precedent. And I thought what a healthy, wonderful thing it would be if more of the Brethren felt comfortable revealing that kind of human Dimension to themselves.

John Dehlin [01:21:56] The vulnerability.

Terryl Givens [01:21:58] Yeah.

Fiona Givens [01:21:59] And the humanity. Humanity that they make mistakes, you know, that they sin as well. You know, I think that's what's caused this huge gulf, and that's what's caused an incredible amount of hurt. Because one, it's expectations. The expectations now are so much higher. And so when the institutional church, led by these men, then you sort of wonder and mistakes are made. That's a huge letdown for many, many people. Absolutely.

Terryl Givens [01:22:34] You do have some brethren trying to dial the expectations back. Elder Holland and Elder Christopherson have both addressed fairly Adeld Ostorf and, yeah, President Uchtdorf have addressed quite directly the fact that leaders have erred. Things have been said, decisions have been made that weren't right. So that's a refreshing bit of honesty, but we don't see enough of that.

Fiona Givens [01:22:55] Yeah, but hopefully that will start, you know, that that will start the ball rolling because we need to see more of it. I think as a church, we need to bridge the gap. It's a chasm between us and our leaders because quite frankly, we are a lay church. Sorry.

Terryl Givens [01:23:14] No, no, go ahead, please.

Fiona Givens [01:23:16] I mean, we don't have theologians. And that also puts them in an incredibly untenable position because one assumes, therefore, that they know the history of the church, that they know the real history of the church, and they've just been keeping it hidden when in actual fact, they were raised on the same manuals. They're not historians. They were raised on the same manuals we were all raised on. And you know, but. But if you set those expectations so high, then you're thinking, well, then that you should have known the history of the church, then you must have known the real history of the Church, when in actual fact, they don't.

Terryl Givens [01:23:51] Yeah, it's kind of a damned if you do and damned if you don't predicament that the brethren are in. Because as soon as you get acknowledgement, such as in the Gospel Topics webpage that says, look, Brigham Young probably made a mistake, then immediately you have people clamoring for, well, then why am I going to stay in a church where prophets can make mistakes? So you can't have it both ways. We either have to be willing to embrace the fact that our leaders can make mistakes even in high position, or we have to. But if we do that, then we're also going to have to lower our expectations of the infallibility of prophetic direction.

James Patterson [01:24:27] Can I jump in with just a personal example of why this all resonates with me? And if there are Any young children cover yours, because I'm about to talk about Christmas, but just a personal example of how I'm dealing with my children, how I can kind of, you know, we talked about having maybe more empathy for our leaders. And as I'm going through a period with my 6 year old in which he's really questioning the literality of everything around him. He's very much into superheroes and he's very much into whatever particular LEGO set he's in. And he wants to know what things are real. They taught him last year in school the difference between fiction and nonfiction. And so he goes around the house asking what things are fiction and nonfiction. And as it relates to Christmas, I have really had this existential struggle with him, as he's asked me, is Santa Claus real? And I haven't been able to find the right way to explain the principle of Santa Claus and Christmas in a way that will resonate with his six year old heart in the right way. I think maybe if I allow myself to put myself in our leader's shoes, I can see a little bit of that, that they maybe anticipate what happened with me happening with a lot of people and it brings a level of sadness or fear or discomfort or something, and I can, I can readily empathize with that because, you know, I go through a similar kind of thing on a very much different scale with my children. And I'm not really sure how to respond. And I make mistakes along the way and I'm not, you know, I don't say the right things all the time and I end up, you know, hurting where I should be helping.

Fiona Givens [01:26:20] Yeah, I think, James, that's so relevant to the discussion because when you think of the brethren that, you know, they're flying all over the place, they're in meetings 24 7. There are so many things that are of absolute immediate import, you know, like the possible attack on the temple in Nigeria and so many global issues with which they are daily involved that I think a large level of generosity behooves us understanding that these aren't paid ministers in the same sense as many others are, you know, and that we are a lay community. And I really like what Joseph said, you know, I'll put up with your imperfections if you put up with mine. So it, I think our own particular issue, of course, is burning. And it tends to obviate the other particular issues that are burning for people around the globe who are members of our faith tradition.

John Dehlin [01:27:33] So does it follow then that we should develop a culture where we're comfortable saying, I disagree with President Packer on this or that talk by Elder Oaks really rubbed me the wrong way. Do you guys feel like that's a step too far? Or that actually that would be a healthy thing to foster as an antidote to our desires and proclivities to worship these men?

Fiona Givens [01:28:00] No, I think that's a. Darling, you took a breath. You wanted to answer. I think I've really commandeered this question. Go ahead, darling.

Terryl Givens [01:28:08] I would just say I would wish we would have a culture in which people were not intimidated into silence or afraid of expressing discontent or disagreement. At the same time, I personally ask myself, when I'm about to say something negative, is this going to be constructive and conducive of some good end, or is it merely venting of spleen? So I wouldn't ever presume to prescribe to others what degree of dissent or criticism they should feel comfortable with.

John Dehlin [01:28:41] So. So we should be able to talk constructively about disagreements, even if it reaches to the level of the brethren, but try to do it responsibly?

Terryl Givens [01:28:52] Yeah, I think so.

John Dehlin [01:28:53] Yeah. Okay. Ring of the Pharaoh. Sorry, Terrell, we're ready for you.

Delegation, Difficult Church History, and Doubt

Terryl Givens [01:28:58] Okay. Ring of the Pharaoh is in some ways an extension of chapter five, where we continue to talk about the ramifications of a church belief in prophetic leadership and authority. And the chapter is really oriented around an anecdote that is told by the family of Elder McConkie that one day he came back from a stake conference and his son asked him if he had installed a new stake president. And he said he had. The question then arose, are you sure that he was God's choice? To which Elder McConkie replied, He is now. And most people who hear that story, they chuckle because it's a story that somehow seems entirely consistent with what we know about Elder McConkie as a man of great self confidence and powerful leadership. But there's also an important principle embedded in that statement that seems innocuous enough when we think of it at that level of leadership. Certainly no one would be so naive as to believe that every calling a bishop makes is inspired. That every pianist and young men's leader he calls is exactly the choice that God had in mind. And yet we understand that delegation means that God gave to that bishop the authority to make those calls. And so we accept them as if they were made by God himself. And so we're simply posing the question, really, what might that mean in terms of prophetic leadership if we were also to believe that, as when The Pharaoh gave his ring to Joseph, or when a Spanish king gives authority to a viceroy or God gives keys to a prophet, he is effectively giving a kind of power of attorney which carries with it no guarantee whatsoever that every decision made with that authority will be perfectly in harmony with the Lord's will. And to my mind, that's. It can be a daunting or a frightening consideration, but it also, I think, is a very comforting one because it tells me that as long, and this is an important caveat that we want to emphasize, as long as I am not being asked to violate my conscience or engage in anything that is wrong or harmful, then it seems to me that we are called upon to sustain our leaders in the knowledge that. That their actions will not always be perfectly inspired, but that that's what it means to sustain somebody within the concept of the principle of delegation.

John Dehlin [01:31:55] And that's maybe the trickiest part of this whole book for me and maybe for others, because it's these very types of issues, whether it be polygamy or that many people have a hard time believing to this day the treatment of blacks, historically that now the church has acknowledged probably wasn't really of a divine treatment. And many would say, whether it's the equality with women or the treatment of LGBT individuals, they would say the giving of that ring and then the sort of blind trusting of the leaders, on the one hand, is maybe too much allegiance that we can offer because of the historic examples of damage, that collateral damage that's been wielded from that confidence.

Terryl Givens [01:32:52] We knew that this would be by far the most controversial and contentious aspect of the book. And no matter how we reworked it, we weren't satisfied that we had conveyed with sufficient clarity what we mean and what we do not mean. We do not mean to suggest in any way, shape or form that the principle of delegation implies that we should give unquestioning, blind obedience or assent to anything that is issued from Salt Lake. We believe that it is always our responsibility to confirm through our own study and prayer and responsiveness to the Spirit, whether what we're hearing is the mind and will of the Lord or not. And I think you mentioned the case of the priesthood ban. I think that's a great example of how this works within the concept or under the rubric of the principle of delegation. Many people were uncomfortable from the get go with the priesthood ban. They objected. They criticized it. They couldn't sustain it in their hearts, and time proved them to be right. And I believe that they were blessed then and will be blessed in eternity for their responsiveness to a conscience and a sensitivity to the humanity of all people. At the same time, I believe other people with more limited experience, with less reflectiveness, with less of a tendency to question and interrogate for themselves, that accepted too readily and unquestioningly this principle will bear the burdens of. Of that unquestioning acceptance. In other words, I think that in every case, we are responsible for how we respond to that direction that comes from prophetic leadership, understanding that it is always our responsibility to personally confirm, through the spirit, the truthfulness and inspiration of those words. That's what you know. Fiona quoted a few minutes earlier, a quotation from Brigham Young to that very effect, that his greatest fear was that people would resort to blind obedience rather than finding personal verification for what comes from the leadership. All I'm saying is that there are many, many cases where we can assume that there is going to be an imperfect degree of inspiration behind what happens. And in most cases where there is not grievous harm that is at stake, it seems to me that there is no harm in simply acceding to that leadership.

John Dehlin [01:35:32] And yet what do we make of those who see, maybe even ahead of some of the prophets, the error of a particular doctrine or policy, and then when they speak up about it, they find themselves, in some ways almost terribly punished or marginalized or ostracized or even rejected from the fold for what turns out to be vindicated, but at the time, it caused them great pain and suffering. What do we make of that? How do we. How do we feel good about that?

Terryl Givens [01:36:05] I don't know that we can feel good about it, but what we can see are many heroic examples in history of people who had to pay that price as part of the cost of discipleship. I think of Helmut Huebner, the faithful Latter Day Saint teenager in Germany who opposed the Nazi regime and was excommunicated by his own congregation. Or I think of Orson Pratt, who alone, of twelve apostles, refused to consent to the false doctrine of Adam, God, and only many years later was vindicated for his steadfast integrity. So it may be that in the short term, we do find ourselves on the margins or ostracized. But I think that our devotion always has to be first and foremost to our conscience before to any institution.

John Dehlin [01:36:54] Are there any modern examples, like Eugene, England, or Lil Binion, that either of you draw inspiration from? Juanita Brooks, you know, or is it mostly 19th century?

Fiona Givens [01:37:06] No, no, Absolutely there are. I see them all around me. Modern exemplars of. Of holding on to their conscience above all else. This is, you know, you've got to be true to yourself. And what, what I have discovered in my own life, not that I put myself in the same category as these people, but what I have noticed in my own life is that while God cannot prevent the suffering that incurs due to lack of inspiration or just an inability to see as God sees, is that he is able to transmute that suffering and that pain into joy at some stage or another. That's. He cannot, he does not create chaos. We create chaos. But what he can do with chaos is he can alchemize. And this is my daughter Rachel, who brought this to our minds, that he alchemizes suffering and turns it into something beautiful. It won't be immediate. I think it's very interesting that Christ enjoins us to take up our crosses and follow him. Each of our crosses is different, and he's not carrying them. I think it's really important that we understand he is not carrying our crosses. We have to carry them ourselves. We follow him, we follow his example. But it's going to be very, very painful for those of us whose consciences feel that they simply cannot go there. I think of Darius Gray. He is one of the, my great heroes. I have to tell you, John, when I met that man, I don't think I could have felt that meeting Nelson Mandela would have been a greater experience than meeting that man. He is a holy man and has worked for years and years and years quietly behind the scenes, not making a fuss, trying to, but years and years of his life, his entire life in trying to change the position of the church on blacks and the priesthood, but also members changing their views of blacks in the Latter Day Saint community. So, yes, there are, I have extraordinary contemporary models whom I, I venerate as great and holy men and women who are leading out in, in many of these areas.

John Dehlin [01:39:54] Excellent. All right. Well, I, I, I definitely don't want to end this part of our discussion without discussing chapter seven. I kind of view it as the greatest universalistic chapter. So holy persons ye not know, ye know not of, Of Mormons and monopolies.

Fiona Givens [01:40:20] Yeah, I think. Is it right if I start on this one, darling?

Terryl Givens [01:40:24] Sure, go ahead.

Fiona Givens [01:40:25] Okay. And of course, this is a lot of me coming from Catholicism, so I'd love. Do we use that quote at this? Yes, I love it. The old Catholic church is worth more than all this. Is what Joseph said in his last sermon before he died. Of course. That makes me feel really good. After we've been vilified by the leadership of the Mormon Church, at least through most of the 20th century.

John Dehlin [01:40:52] Right? Yeah.

Fiona Givens [01:40:53] But what this chapter speaks to me is that we do not have a monopoly on truth. And that's really, really important because I keep hearing people standing up and saying we are the only true church. And that would make God an incredible favoritist. There is such a word, you know, that we are, you know, a community of what, a few million million maybe, and there are billions of people on the earth and yet we're the only ones that have, you know, they have the repository of truth. It makes absolutely no sense. I have traveled most of the globe. I have seen beautiful Christlike men and women of myriad faith traditions. And I think I was just reading in Alma 5 and pretty much I can't find it now, but what he was saying, that anything that persuade us to do good is of God. So, you know, once you open the category to that, then all of the faith traditions and all of the peoples of different cultures are now involved in this process of moving the great work of goodness throughout the world. And this is what we were really trying to do in this chapter. And also talking about the KE Ona Mauer, I think that's in this chapter as well, the Church Without Walls. And, and then there is a scripture that Terrell happened upon, and it's absolutely beautiful. Darling, can you, can you comment that? It's DNC 1053, 55d and C10, which

Terryl Givens [01:42:37] is, remarkably enough, given in 1829 before the organization of the church. We're beginning in about verse 52. The Lord, through Joseph Smith is expressing concern for those members of his church who might be threatened or offended by the restoration. So it's clear that he considers there is a church that is not comprised within the institutional framework of the church. So even in Joseph Smith's Revelations, you find very firmly entrenched this notion of the invisible church, a universal church that transcends any particular denominational boundaries. And so we just think that's a lovely allusion that the Lord is making there to people whom he considers his beloved, people who are not Mormons.

John Dehlin [01:43:31] And yet there's. And so I love that there's clearly a universalistic impulse in this chapter. I think it's sorely needed. I celebrate it. And the only thing I'd say is there's a difference between saying, you know, we're the best, but of course, others have some truth. And that, that stops short of where I'm comfortable. What I, what I, you know, where My egalitarian sort of impulses want to go is sort of where Elder Werthland went in one of the talks he gave before he passed, which was, you know, maybe what if every faith tradition, and what if even the atheists and the agnostics, what if we're all part of this beautiful orchestra and just like the hand cannot say to the foot, I have no need of thee, what if we're all sort of, in some quasi egalitarian way, all God's children, and nobody can say they're better because just saying that we have all the truth, but they have some truth, that's almost a bit of a. It's not as important to me as to say we're all legitimate children of God and nobody can say they're superior. Am I going too far?

Fiona Givens [01:44:41] No, no, John, you have hit the nail right on the head. I mean, you have said it absolutely eloquently. That's exactly what we're saying in this chapter. We are all God's children.

Terryl Givens [01:44:53] Part of what we're trying to do is shift the discourse from emphasizing truth. Because the church, the Latter Day Saints, don't even have all the truth, right? I mean, clearly Joseph Smith said there are many things yet to be revealed. We think when that expression the true church is used, that what it has reference to is the fact that the Lord has designated this particular institution and its people to be the guardians of the temple ordinances that serve as the portal to salvation, but it's not the reservoir of the righteous. So there's no monopoly on truth. But there is an important, important role that the church plays relative to priesthood keys and ordinances.

John Dehlin [01:45:37] But not a superior status to other traditions?

Fiona Givens [01:45:39] Absolutely not.

John Dehlin [01:45:40] No. I love it. I love it. Okay. That, that chapter in and of itself is groundbreaking for me. Okay, well, I, I, I hoping that we're not wearing out our listeners, let's. Let's talk briefly about finding your watering place.

Finding Spiritual Nourishment Beyond Sunday Meetings

Terryl Givens [01:45:58] Okay. This is one. Can I do this one?

Fiona Givens [01:46:00] Of course, darling.

Terryl Givens [01:46:01] This is one that comes out really of our personal experience. You know, we, as so many other people, learned long ago that if you go to church on a Sunday expecting to come home replenished with all kinds of new Gospel insights and understandings and spiritual edification, you'll often be disappointed. And so we have made a habit in our own home of creating a kind of library of people that we consider to be members of the Church of the General assembly and Church of the Firstborn, inspired, beautiful, gifted, lovely people from past ages and other traditions. And we have found tremendous kinship with these people, a source, a sense of fellowship and tremendous insight and inspiration. It's really began first when I was working on my book on the pre existence when I discovered a plethora of people who had been beautifully inspired to uncover this truth that was so long in being restored to the earth. And so in this chapter, find your own watering place. We're simply suggesting that people should make more of an effort to find their own sources of spiritual nourishment and find a path to communion with God and devotion and spiritual development out of your own resources that you develop independently of any church structure.

John Dehlin [01:47:29] And this is an idea that sometimes is referred to as supplementing. But what I hear you saying is if you're not comprehensively nourished in your LDS Sunday experience, if in some ways your spirituality is sagging, don't for a moment hesitate to find a wonderful movie or a wonderful piece of music composition or a wonderful piece of literature that might be created by the non LDS folk and that might not even be sold a deseret book that you can still feel comfortable grasping to, to be inspired and uplifted.

James Patterson [01:48:06] Absolutely.

Terryl Givens [01:48:07] Joseph Smith was. I'm sorry, he was so eclectic. I mean, in his personal library he had sermons from Congregationalist ministers, from Catholics, from other Protestants, from Unitarians. And that's.

John Dehlin [01:48:20] There was from Muhammad. Right.

Terryl Givens [01:48:22] And I don't know if he was. If he had any Islamic texts. I don't know that he may have as well. It certainly would have been in keeping with his kind of universal generosity.

Fiona Givens [01:48:32] He's a huge fan of Walter Scott.

Terryl Givens [01:48:34] That's right, yeah. And you know, the school of the prophets that promulgated the study and the absorption of all kinds of literature and history and tradition. So we need to be much less provincial than we are in the modern church.

Fiona Givens [01:48:51] Sorry, James. No, go ahead.

James Patterson [01:48:53] I love this part from the book, this chapter. I didn't expect to jump out at me so much, but it did in a very real way. And I circled this part about three times where it says on page 100, the challenge then, and the enticing opportunity is to find a pattern of devotion and nourishment that extends beyond the confines of a Sunday curriculum, one that constitutes our private life of discipleship. And it goes on and says, for while the established church provides a framework of service, an occasion for community and a vehicle for saving ordinances, it is in the secret chambers of our private temples that we must have ultimate recourse to the inspiration and revelation that guide our discipleship. That part just resonated so wholly with me.

Terryl Givens [01:49:37] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:49:38] Beautiful.

Fiona Givens [01:49:39] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:49:41] I don't. I, I. Unless you guys object, I feel. I feel the need to jump to chapter 10. Do you guys. Are you guys gonna object if I skip the chapter about.

Terryl Givens [01:49:51] No, we gotta leave something.

John Dehlin [01:49:53] Okay. Yep. Okay. So I'm gonna. I'm gonna skip to the chapter 10 on silence and solitude. This is something that, that really did. It really did jump out to me, and it. It made me uncomfortable. But maybe that's kind of. Fiona, what you were saying, sometimes discomfort isn't necessarily a bad thing. But what are you guys saying in chapter 10? Who wants to grab that one?

Fiona Givens [01:50:17] Well, we are. We are saying that it's all right when we feel that the heavens are closed. It's a really difficult thing to say. But the heavens do close at times in our lives when we feel that they must stay open. When things are urgent, we have a loved one in distress, and we get no inspiration, we get no answers to our prayers, and we feel like we're just sending off letters or entreaties and they're not being heard. I think it's very difficult for Mormons to grasp this because we have been told all the time that if you ask, the question will be answered. And I'm not saying that the question won't be answered, but it won't be answered immediately. And it often the answers don't come in the way we anticipate. And there is also a tendency, unfortunately, and I don't know if this is. Well, Catholics actually don't believe God's going to answer their prayers. But this tendency that God will answer our prayers the way we prescribe that there are certain models of reception, of revelatory reception that we anticipate. And I think what we're trying to do in this chapter is say that God is trying to reach out to us in all sorts of ways, you know, for us to be able to see his handprint in our lives. He is trying to offer us opportunities, different avenues for revelation. And yet so often we stop him from answering our questions because we are telling him how he should answer our questions, if you see what I mean.

John Dehlin [01:52:14] Right.

Fiona Givens [01:52:15] So this idea of this really dear friend of mine who was in this awful depression, couldn't get out of it, and the revelation comes through a dog. I mean, it sounds absolutely ridiculous, but seriously, that dog, penned up in the neighbor's yard opposite her, was her way out of her depression. As she started walking him, people would talk to her. And so we found. I mean, we were In a discussion with a young man who wanted to tell us why he had left the church. And this really was the issue for him is that he wanted clarification on the job that he was deciding. And he never felt that God answered that particular prayer. And I said, well, what did you want to do? And he said, well, I really wanted to work in a humanitarian basis and also make some money. And it just so happened that his job was facilitating the movement of wheelchairs across Africa. And it was like, but your prayer was answered, but it wasn't answered in the way he expected it to be answered. So he was oblivious to the answer. So I think this particular chapter is just open yourself up. Just let those tenets, the traditions, traditional modes of revelatory experience, drop them, because God will speak to you in your language. For times we aren't even aware of our own revelatory language because we're trying to seek for another.

John Dehlin [01:53:57] It's a great message. Well, I. I think. I think I want to. To sort of do what, what tarot suggests, which is to not necessarily close out every chapter, but to leave a little bit for the reader to actually buy this, the splendid book for those who want to believe and to. And to read it cover to cover. So. But I do want to have an impactful close to this, to this segment. And so I haven't really. I haven't really given you guys time to. To come up with a. With a few closing statements, but I. I guess I do want to just close by again, thanking you for this book, thanking you for sharing and asking each of you to sort of, if you can put your minds for a second into the perspective in the heart of those who are really struggling right now, those who are really, really feeling the anxiety, the depression, the isolation, feeling alone, feeling hopeless. And I guess I would ask each of you to close this interview tonight with any final words. It can be additional wisdom, perspective, testimony, whatever you want. Just to sort of make your final appeal to the struggler as a way to close out this beautiful hour and a half that we've shared together. So, Fiona, why don't we start with you and then we'll end with Terrell, if that's okay.

Personal Reflections and Closing Thoughts

Fiona Givens [01:55:36] Yeah, absolutely. And I'd love to hear what James has to say as well. For me, I only know one thing, John. The only thing I know is that Jesus is the Christ. It's part of my genetic makeup. I was born with it. It is the only thing I can say with any conviction that I know. And so the question is When I left Catholicism. And while it was a wonderful Pentecostal experience, my conversion, when I left Catholicism, I left something incredibly beautiful. And there was a price that came with that, and I'm still paying it. There is still a lot of suffering involved. And so for me, I had to ask then, what is it that Mormonism has to offer that Catholicism couldn't offer you? Or why on earth would God ask you to move from this extremely beautiful, liturgical, rich tradition to an obscure religious group very few people know about? And so the things that help me when I am struggling myself is the beauties of the fundamentals of Mormonism, that God himself is a universalist, that he has devised a plan whereby all of his children will eventually, it's not automatic, but all of his children will return home. I think that is absolutely wonderful. The Catholic Church has just recently announced that there may be hope for children who die unbaptized. And so that distance of coming from that to a God who will save all of his children and has devised a way to do so is extraordinary to me. The idea of the Fall as not being a fall at all, but being an ascent. The idea that Eve is the heroine of the human family is particularly empowering to me as a woman. And the fact that sin is educative, not punitive, because we all sin, and therefore there must be some reason to it, or God is absolutely irrational. He could have created us with better spirits. Those things resonate very, very deeply with me, and they help me hold on when the going is tough or when I have particularly bad days.

John Dehlin [01:58:38] Beautiful. Thank you, Fiona. James, before we have Terrell give the final word, is there anything you wanted to close with?

James Patterson [01:58:50] I think one of the biggest things that this book in particular, but my faith transition, this journey that I've been on, has helped me realize is that there is great beauty and yet great struggle in nuance. I have found so much richness in my faith when I allowed it to open up to these great possibilities. I went through a period in my life where I felt like, and this is part of my personal hubris, but coming off, coming out of seminary and then my mission and then going into young adulthood, I studied a lot about the church, the doctrine of the church. I felt, in a sense, like when I would listen to General Conference, there usually wasn't anything that I didn't already know. It was just all repeating the same things. That's how I often felt in church. And so I came to a point where I almost got bored with church. And what I've Noticed has been one of the great blessings of what I've gone through in my faith transition is how it has opened up so many new possibilities and nuances to my faith that didn't exist before, and how I can explore those things knowing full well that there are a lot of those things that I will probably never fully reconcile. And whereas before that, that would have been a great fear of mine, it is one of the most beautiful things about my life right now. And I just love what Fiona just said and the kind of list that she checked off. And all those things resonate with me. And I feel like I often hear the statement that everything that is true about Mormonism is not unique and everything that is unique is not true. And I really struggle with that, that statement because I find a lot of unique things about the church that resonate so deeply with me. Many of those same things that Fiona just, just talked about. And they. Those are the things that make me want to keep trying with Mormonism in spite of how difficult it can be at times and how painful it can be, not just for me, but the struggles that I see other people going through. That's what keeps me going, is the beauty of those principles and how those resonate with me and draw me closer to God.

John Dehlin [02:01:32] Beautiful. Thank you, James. What a wonderful contribution to the close. All right, Terrell, bring us home.

Terryl Givens [02:01:39] Well, I will end with a quotation from Flannery o', Connor, the great novelist. She wrote, I think there is no suffering greater than what is caused by the doubts of those who want to believe. And I think because of our own personal experience and experience with family members whom we love, that Fiona and I have come to know firsthand what suffering Flannery o' Connor was referring to. And it was out of concern and a desire to alleviate the pain of those who want to believe that we wrote this book. And I feel that because of my own experience off the coast of Africa, as you, John, know, when I had my near death experience, I know what it is to have one's faith wrenched dramatically and abruptly away from one. And it also occurs in many cases, of course, that it dissipates more gradually. But I'm grateful that in my own case I discovered that one of the gifts of the Spirit that the Lord promises to his people is the ability to choose to believe when knowledge and certainty are gone. And I have made that choice to believe. And along with my wife, Fiona, I am drawn to the same beauteous truths that Joseph Smith restored. I am drawn to a vulnerable God who weeps over our misery. I am drawn to an expanse of heaven that is generous and universal in the souls that it admits into heaven. I am drawn to the idea of an eternal sociality and relationality heaven that consists of eternal relationships with those whom we love. And I'm drawn to the exciting and exhilarating possibilities of human futures and possibilities that Joseph taught about. Ultimately, though, I think what keeps me in the Church are the words that are spoken in the Epistle to the Galatians where the author refers to the fruits of the spirits as being peace, joy and love. And when I contemplate what I think are these beautiful and sublime truths that Joseph Smith restored to the world, when I'm able to focus on those rather than on the institution and its flaws and foibles and those who sometimes lead it, then I feel the peace and joy and love of which the Scriptures speak. And that is why I choose to remain. Thank you John for having us here tonight.

John Dehlin [02:04:25] Well, thank you Terrell. For me, the word for tonight is lovely. It's a lovely couple. This has been a lovely conversation and frankly, it's a lovely book. The book is the Crucible of Doubt or Reflections on the Quest for Faith. The authors are Terrell and Fiona Givens, the publisher of Deseret Book. You can order it pre order it@mormonstories.org right now. You can go to Amazon.com and order it. And I hope everyone who is desiring to remain in the church will get this book and read it because I think it'll help many people. So Terrell and Fiona, thank you again for coming on Mormon Stories and for that trust.

Fiona Givens [02:05:07] Thank you John.

John Dehlin [02:05:08] Thanks John and James, thank you for making this happen. It would not have happened without you. So thank you James.

James Patterson [02:05:13] Thank you John. Thanks for having me. And thanks for Terrell and Fiona was a pleasure. Pleasure talking about this.

Fiona Givens [02:05:21] Thank you James. Likewise,

James Patterson [02:05:27] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories Foundation. Music for today's episode was provided by the Lower Lights. Check out the rest of their music by visiting thelowerlights.com or on Facebook@facebook.com TheLowerlights

Terryl Givens [02:05:44] cease to make me whole

John Dehlin [02:05:51] when with

Terryl Givens [02:05:53] a wounded heart, anger or malice

James Patterson [02:06:02] I

Terryl Givens [02:06:03] draw myself apart Searching my soul.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.