Introduction and Welcome

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 1624

Auz Engemann [00:00:00] Hello, everyone.

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I am one of your two co hosts for today, John Dehlin. I'm super happy to have you with us and really excited about today's episode. And today I am joined by my occasional co host, Samantha Shelley. Hey, Sam.

Samantha Shelley [00:00:17] Hi, John.

John Dehlin [00:00:18] Thanks for coming.

Samantha Shelley [00:00:19] Thank you for having me again.

John Dehlin [00:00:20] So on a scale of 1 to 10, how excited are you for today?

Samantha Shelley [00:00:23] Oh, I'm out of 10. I've been so excited about this since you asked me. Yeah. Eleven, John.

John Dehlin [00:00:31] Sam, I've loved the feedback on your story. So it was so great to have you on Mormon Stories recently. If you haven't checked out Margi and my interview with Samantha, it's great. All right, well, I'm super excited for today's episode. You know, one of the staples of Mormon Stories podcast, kind of our bread and butter, is people's faith journeys. And, and interestingly, the way that we brought Samantha on, the very first time she was ever on Mormon Stories, was to kind of was when our interest was getting piqued about what was going on with millennials in the Mormon Church. It won't be a surprise to people who follow Mormonism to know that the Mormon Church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints in 2022, is having a really hard time keeping its millennials in its gen zers. I've heard reports, you know, the church isn't public with its retention or activity rates, but I've heard as high as 80% of LDS Church members raised in the United States who are in their 20s or early 30s have left the church. And that's not, you know, converts. That's people raised in the church who, you know, identified as Mormon growing up. So the church is really using its youth, losing its youth. This isn't unique to Mormonism. This is kind of every religion in the United States is having trouble hanging on to its young people. So in one sense, today is just a very important and sort of check in with how is the church dealing with its millennials and, you know, to what extent is it struggling to keep them? So that's going to be part of today a lot like the Losing Mormon Millennials episode that you did, Sam. But in another sense, it's also going to be some new stuff. So today we are interviewing a really cool couple. The, the couple that we're bringing on is Ellie Duke and Oz Ingeman. Hi, guys.

Ellee Duke [00:02:28] Welcome to Mormon Stories. Thanks for having us. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:32] And I'll just kind of give kind of just an intro in the sense that Ellie Duke, what's interesting is that Ellie was raised in Draper, Utah. If I had to pick like the four most intense areas in the, in Mormonism to be raised, it would sort of be Provo slash Utah county. Maybe add Alpine and Highline and Highland into there. But certainly the Sandy Draper area can be super intense. And then maybe I'd add like Bountiful and then of course Rexburg. So in this, I don't, I don't know that we've. How many people we've interviewed on Mormon stories that were actually raised LDS in Draper. So you get to represent Draper, Ellie.

Ellee Duke [00:03:10] Juicy.

Samantha Shelley [00:03:12] Great.

Ellee Duke [00:03:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:14] And Oz, you were raised in Provo.

Auz Engemann [00:03:15] Sure, sure was.

John Dehlin [00:03:16] And that's always, that's always worth covering is just what it's like. And, and of course Carabarell was raised in, in Provo and, and others. But we're always, always interested to hear what it's like to be raised in the belly of the beast.

Auz Engemann [00:03:30] The Mecca. Yes, the Mecca.

John Dehlin [00:03:32] Yeah. So that's going to be one of the angles that we covered today. And then what's also just another layer of interesting to today's episode is that Ellie and Oz, they both live in the LA area and they're both creative artists. And that's how I, I learned about Ellie and I'll just read her bio really quick. Ellie Duke is an American artist, songwriter and entrepreneur. Blending real life stories with original quirky pop beats. Ellie Duke has a gift for expressing complicated feelings in an accessible vibe setting way. Ellie got her first Billboard number one with the song she co wrote called Craving, a 2019 collaboration on with Artie and Audian. Is that right?

Ellee Duke [00:04:16] Yeah, that's right.

John Dehlin [00:04:17] She's also cut songs for Walk the Earth, who I've heard of, and Alexander Stewart and Ali Simpson, and is currently CEO of her own label, New Me. You've also toured with Leanne Rimes.

Ellee Duke [00:04:29] I have, yeah. And I opened for Rachel Platten a couple years ago. Yeah, yeah, we out here.

John Dehlin [00:04:35] That's super cool.

Samantha Shelley [00:04:36] It's a huge gap for you, John.

John Dehlin [00:04:38] I'm excited. Yeah. And if that weren't enough, this week is kind of the global debut of a new single of yours, right?

Ellee Duke [00:04:47] Yes. Last Thursday the 7th, my single deeper came out, which kind of encompasses a large portion of my story with this whole thing, why we're here.

John Dehlin [00:04:58] Yeah. And that's how I, and I, you know, I'm super old and so I haven't, I haven't heard of your music. I'm just being honest. But I did, I did run across it on TikTok and Instagram, because it's a super cool song. I shared it with my. With my wife and kids. I have kids your age. And it. It actually relates to kind of how I raised my kids and how they often felt being raised Mormon. So it was something that I and my family just immediately connected with. So Deeper is a cool single. We're really excited and we're going to play it in its entirety later on in this episode in the space where it makes most sense. So it's kind of like a global debut.

Ellee Duke [00:05:43] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:05:44] Of your single.

Ellee Duke [00:05:45] Yes. Thanks for having us for it. It's an honor.

John Dehlin [00:05:48] And it's directly related to faith crisis stuff.

Ellee Duke [00:05:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:51] Mormon Faith Crisis 100.

Auz Engemann [00:05:53] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [00:05:53] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:05:54] So in the tradition of, like, having Tyler Glenn on and Mindy Gledhill and. And Sarah Sample and several other performing artists, we love to bring on performing artists who discuss Mormon faith crises in their art. So I love that.

Ellee Duke [00:06:12] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:13] And then, Oz, you are also an aspiring filmmaker in the LA area?

Auz Engemann [00:06:18] Yes, sir.

John Dehlin [00:06:18] And that's cool, too.

Auz Engemann [00:06:19] Yeah, yeah. I've been doing film for the last, like, three and a half years and trying to direct. That's what I'm trying to do, so.

John Dehlin [00:06:26] Yeah.

Auz Engemann [00:06:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:27] And you two are married, is that right?

Auz Engemann [00:06:29] Correct?

Ellee Duke [00:06:29] Yes, we are. Four years.

John Dehlin [00:06:30] Four years.

Auz Engemann [00:06:31] Four years in May.

Ellee Duke [00:06:32] Four years this May. Yep.

John Dehlin [00:06:35] So hopefully that gives everyone a sense for what you're in store for today. It's going to be your traditional, longer form, epic, heartfelt, authentic Mormon stories interview. You asked if swearing was okay. My answer was the authentic. All right. Yes, sir. So we'll give it a PG G13 rating, where there may be a swear word here and there. And that's just because we're trying to keep it real.

Ellee Duke [00:07:00] Yes. I just love it.

John Dehlin [00:07:04] Yeah. Okay. Sam, is there anything I forgot or anything you want to add before we jump in?

Samantha Shelley [00:07:08] No, I think you're doing great. I'm so excited.

John Dehlin [00:07:12] All right. Okay. So, Oz, you're older.

Auz Engemann [00:07:15] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:07:16] Is that right?

Auz Engemann [00:07:16] Correct. 31.

Ellee Duke [00:07:18] He looks 21, though.

Auz Engemann [00:07:19] I have a baby face.

Samantha Shelley [00:07:22] The facial symmetry on both of these, I can't bear it.

John Dehlin [00:07:27] Well, who wants to begin? Whose story should we tell first? Maybe. Maybe, Ellie, we should start with yours. Is that okay?

Ellee Duke [00:07:32] Yeah, that's great.

John Dehlin [00:07:33] So we'll do your Mormon story first.

Ellee Duke [00:07:35] Perfect.

John Dehlin [00:07:35] And then we'll pause, jump to Oz's. And then we'll talk about when you guys meet and how it all unfolds.

Ellee Duke [00:07:41] All right.

John Dehlin [00:07:42] How does that work?

Ellee Duke [00:07:42] Yeah, perfect.

Ellee's Mormon Upbringing in Sandy, Utah

John Dehlin [00:07:43] All right. So, Ellie, where does your Mormon story Begin.

Ellee Duke [00:07:47] So, yeah, I was born in Sandy and grew up in Draper.

Auz Engemann [00:07:53] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [00:07:53] So when I was seven, my parents bought this old farmhouse and we were remodeling it. Basically, my parents took it on, and me and all my brothers were just painting, sanding. My mom made this, like, vinegar spray that we took down all the wallpaper with, like, just totally like DIY just, like, thrown into remodeling this house together, which was amazing. So that was, like, a really beautiful part of my childhood because I grew up on this big piece of property, and I feel like we didn't have cell phones. And like, nowadays I feel like social media is just such a huge thing. And so I. I really treasure that time that, like, we spent there. And just as kids and growing up. My family is Mormon and I grew up lds, so that was a huge part of my upbringing as well.

John Dehlin [00:08:41] Were your parents multi generational? Did they like, pioneer ancestry kind of stuff?

Ellee Duke [00:08:46] Yeah, yeah. Yep, as far as I know. Yeah, I know for sure. So my. My dad's mom is a convert, and she converted when she was, like, 18. And then my mom's parents have been members, like, their whole lives and grew up in it.

John Dehlin [00:08:59] Where'd your parents meet, do you know?

Ellee Duke [00:09:01] They met in Sandy at a singles ward, I believe.

John Dehlin [00:09:05] Okay.

Ellee Duke [00:09:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:06] Okay.

Ellee Duke [00:09:06] And then they were married, I think, like, you know, not long after Temple married. Huh. Temple married. My mom was like, 19, I think, and. Yeah. Total cuties.

John Dehlin [00:09:20] And how many total kids do they have?

Ellee Duke [00:09:23] 3. So I have an older brother and a younger brother.

John Dehlin [00:09:25] Okay.

Ellee Duke [00:09:26] A middle child. Yeah. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:09:29] Yeah. And so. And so were you. Were you born in. In Draper.

Ellee Duke [00:09:32] Sandy area or Born in Sandy, but grew up in Draper? Yeah. Yeah. So my parents, they lived in, like, Sugar House for a while, and then when my mom got pregnant with me, they lived in South Mountain. And then we bought the farmhouse, and I lived there till I was where I was about 16, and then we moved to another house, so.

John Dehlin [00:09:50] Okay. And people outside of Utah are gonna have no idea what we're talking about. Like, Draper, Sandy, these are suburbs that are like 15 minutes south of Salt Lake. Downtown. Salt Lake City.

Ellee Duke [00:10:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:02] And I'll just say my impression of Sandy Draper is like, almost. I don't know if Edward Scissorhands is kind of the right metaphor, but just like, really nice houses, middle to upper middle class, like professionals largely, that probably work downtown, and they commute in the rush hour traffic along I15. But, like, I don't want to say it's the most affluent Mormon area in Utah because that'd be Park City or probably the Avenues or the East Bench along. But like middle to upper middle class class, kind of an intense form of Mormonism. That's how I think of Sandy Draper. And my mom lived there for, like, 20 years.

Ellee Duke [00:10:49] Okay, cool.

John Dehlin [00:10:50] But tell me if that's. So when you talk about, like, growing up in a barn, I'm like, what? Like, is it next to a Home Depot? Like, how did that work? Oh, my God. But this might have been before Draper got overdeveloped.

Ellee Duke [00:11:01] It was. It was honestly, like, right before. So, like, there was this huge, like, fields across from this, like, farmhouse that my parents bought, and it's now just homes. Like, there's just. It's just stacked with homes, apartment buildings. So. Yeah, but at the time, it was still a little more rural, I would say. But then, so my parents, we sold that house and they bought, like, they built a brand new house up in kind of the more mountainous area of Draper, which is kind of more of a neighborhood of what you're talking about. More like kind of middle, upper class

John Dehlin [00:11:36] by the neighborhood Temple or a little.

Ellee Duke [00:11:39] A little further south or. No, a little further. I don't know. Directions. Okay. North.

John Dehlin [00:11:45] North of the temple.

Ellee Duke [00:11:46] North of the temple.

John Dehlin [00:11:47] That was another big thing when they built the Draper Temple.

Ellee Duke [00:11:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:50] Which is southeast Salt Lake Valley. That was kind of a big deal. The Draper Temple, right?

Ellee Duke [00:11:54] Oh, it was a huge deal. Yeah. I remember the open house, and it was just like, everyone was just raving about it, and it was this huge

John Dehlin [00:11:59] deal because it's this gorgeous temple up on the hill.

Ellee Duke [00:12:02] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:03] In this really kind of affluent Mormon community.

Ellee Duke [00:12:06] Yeah, it was a huge deal. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:08] Yeah. And it was the only temple on the east side of the valley other than the Salt Lake Temple, because it was always the West Jordan Temple, which is where I took out my endowments on the west side. And this is just total insider baseball. But in Utah, I had a friend once, tell me more east, more good. And what he means by that is Utah is split right down the middle by i15. And doesn't matter kind of where you are along the I15 corridor, whether it's Farmington Bountiful, you know, Davis county, all the way up to Ogden and. And Brigham City or all the way down to Provo. If you're on the east side of i15, it's known as more affluent, more educated. And then if you're on the west, west side, it's always viewed as kind of maybe less educated, less affluent.

Auz Engemann [00:12:56] That's so funny. Yeah.

Ellee Duke [00:12:57] Interesting. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:58] That's new to you guys?

Auz Engemann [00:12:59] No, no, not to me.

Ellee Duke [00:13:00] I. I didn't know that.

Auz Engemann [00:13:01] Yeah. Yeah, that's kind of like the stereotype, I guess.

John Dehlin [00:13:04] So when. So the only reason I'm saying that is, like, West Valley was, you know, West Jordan was the temple. You know, that. That was for people over in Magna and people over in West Valley. So to have Draper get its own temple was, you know, it's kind of.

Auz Engemann [00:13:19] Ooh.

Ellee Duke [00:13:19] Draper did their own temple.

John Dehlin [00:13:23] You know what I mean?

Ellee Duke [00:13:23] Bougie.

John Dehlin [00:13:24] And my parents worked in the Draper temple as. As temple workers for, like, 15, 20 years.

Ellee Duke [00:13:29] Oh, wow.

Samantha Shelley [00:13:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:30] So I have a Draper connection, too. That's why I'm geeking out about Draper. How was it for you, though? Was it in. Was it suburban? Was it intense? You know, did it feel affluent or not or.

Ellee Duke [00:13:43] Yeah, I mean, I definitely. I remember because I. So I went to Alta High School. I remember when I was in high school, like, you know, I had quite a few friends who, like, got a brand new car for their, like, 16th birthday, which I didn't. My parents let me use a car, but it wasn't like, here's a brand new car, which is fine. But, yeah, there definitely was, like, a lot of people that had money, but I would say it was still kind of like, there was still diversity. But, yeah, a lot of. A lot of, like, wealthier people and families and just. Yeah, like, Pepperwood was kind of a big part of growing up. Pepperwood parties and what's Pepperwood? Pepperwood is like this really kind of like a bougie neighborhood. And I think it's where.

John Dehlin [00:14:24] I think that's where Denver Snuffer lives.

Ellee Duke [00:14:26] Oh.

John Dehlin [00:14:26] I mean, that's. We're kind of talking about.

Samantha Shelley [00:14:28] He doesn't live in a yurt somewhere?

John Dehlin [00:14:30] No, no, no. He looks like in Sandy Draper. Like, like, fancy east. East up close towards the mountain kind of Draper.

Ellee Duke [00:14:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:37] So I had a Pepperwood.

Ellee Duke [00:14:38] I had a few friends who lived in Pepperwood, and whenever you heard, like, oh, yeah, I live in Pepperwood, it was always like, oh, like, wow, you know.

Auz Engemann [00:14:45] Pepperwood parties.

Ellee Duke [00:14:46] Pepperwood parties, yeah. Kissing parties. Yeah. Did you not know about Pepperwood Parties?

John Dehlin [00:14:53] No. What's a Pepper?

Ellee Duke [00:14:54] Oh, my gosh. So Pepperwood parties was like this end of the year party in high school, and basically people would go. And do you think there's parents that don't know about what this party was? Because I feel like I'm probably, like, riding so many people out. You would just go and, like, kiss people. Like, it was literally like, how many people can I kiss? Yeah. I'm not joking. My senior year, I didn't.

John Dehlin [00:15:18] These are Mormon kids.

Samantha Shelley [00:15:18] Oh, yeah.

Ellee Duke [00:15:19] Just a bunch. I mean, all. There was people that weren't Mormon too, but. Yeah, a bunch of Mormon kids just, like, making out, like, at the end of the year.

Samantha Shelley [00:15:25] Party.

Auz Engemann [00:15:27] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [00:15:27] Good times. Good times.

John Dehlin [00:15:29] We're jumping ahead, but that's fun. We're setting the stage.

Ellee Duke [00:15:33] Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:34] Yeah. Okay. So. So jumping back a bit. You're restoring this barn. You've got two siblings.

Ellee Duke [00:15:42] I didn't live in the barn, though. You know that, right? The house, too, was, like, older. Older farmhouse. And there was a barn.

Samantha Shelley [00:15:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:50] Were you guys flipping it, like, an investment property you were gonna restore and then flip?

Ellee Duke [00:15:53] I think that was initially, like, my parents thought, but then once we flipped it, like, we just fell in love with it. And like, to this day, my parents, they don't regret moving, but I think just, like, it was such a special place because we all put so much into it.

Auz Engemann [00:16:08] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [00:16:08] It was a. It bonded us in, like, a way because we just. We worked on the house together, like, every summer. There was this. There was this really long white fence, like, a wooden fence around this big field in the front of our house, and we would paint it, like, every summer, and we hated it. But, like, I learned how to work at that house. Like, I learned how to work my. My ass off.

John Dehlin [00:16:29] Oh. She looks at Samantha.

Samantha Shelley [00:16:31] I know. I don't know why. Happy to be engaged.

Ellee Duke [00:16:37] Samantha, are you okay?

John Dehlin [00:16:38] Are we good? As a parent, I'm like, I want to teach my kids, but I'm.

Ellee Duke [00:16:44] I'm really thankful for that we move there because, like, I learned so much, like, moving into that house, and I just. It's just sentimental. I still drive past it. If you hear that song by Miranda Lambert, the House that Built Me, I feel like that was how I feel about that house.

John Dehlin [00:17:00] We'll add a link to it in the show notes.

Ellee Duke [00:17:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:05] What's it near? Just if anybody is, like, really getting more.

Ellee Duke [00:17:07] It's on Pioneer Road.

John Dehlin [00:17:09] Pioneer Road.

Ellee Duke [00:17:09] And you know, like, the roundabout right by Draper Park.

John Dehlin [00:17:12] Okay. Yeah, yeah.

Ellee Duke [00:17:13] So if you go up Pioneer Road, just straight, and then you take a right on 123rd, I think.

John Dehlin [00:17:18] Okay.

Ellee Duke [00:17:19] It's, like, right on that road, and there's, like, this. They put this, like, horse fence, like this cool wrought iron horse gate. Can't miss it, honestly.

John Dehlin [00:17:28] Okay. All right. So how. So thinking back to kind of pre adolescence, how Mormon was your family in terms of, like, scripture study, prayer, like, yeah, very. All that stuff. Very.

A Deeply Orthodox and Devout Family Life

Ellee Duke [00:17:45] Like, we would. We would get up at like, you know, 5, 6am during the school year and like read scriptures as a family, like every day, say prayers morning and night. We'd always have family night on Mondays. Going to church was just like, it wasn't like an option. It was just like, we're going to church is what we, our family does. And my dad was like a bishop and then he was also in the high council and so he had what, stick.

Samantha Shelley [00:18:14] This is.

Ellee Duke [00:18:15] Oh, my gosh. I don't, I don't remember.

John Dehlin [00:18:18] You grew up in. It's fine if you don't.

Ellee Duke [00:18:21] I. Man, I'm. I'm trying to remember, but I don't.

John Dehlin [00:18:24] But if your dad was a bishop, I mean, that's a really high honor within Mormonism, right?

Ellee Duke [00:18:29] Yeah, he was a bishop.

John Dehlin [00:18:30] And then do you remember what age you were? Ages. You were.

Ellee Duke [00:18:33] I was. We still lived on South Mountain, so I was like, I was probably like four or five.

John Dehlin [00:18:39] Okay. You were young.

Ellee Duke [00:18:40] I was really young.

John Dehlin [00:18:41] So he was called young as a bishop.

Ellee Duke [00:18:43] He was really young.

John Dehlin [00:18:43] Normally they don't call bishops with really young kids.

Ellee Duke [00:18:46] Yeah, yeah. Because I was probably four or five and then my mom had just had my little brother and then my older brother was probably like. Yeah, seven or eight. So. Yeah, it was a lot. And he, he was gone a lot. Like, I remember just. I didn't see him a ton because he was busy serving and doing that and. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:05] How would you describe. Like, I know your parents may watch this and I'm not looking for tea, but like, how would you describe their personalities? Like pious or. Or laid back and cool, like, personality type? How do you.

Ellee Duke [00:19:19] I would say my dad is like definitely like more of an intense personality. He played football and he's like a really big dude.

John Dehlin [00:19:28] Football, college or. Football?

Ellee Duke [00:19:29] Yeah, college. He played at the U of you. Oh, and he was like a linebacker

John Dehlin [00:19:33] because you're tall, you're 511.

Ellee Duke [00:19:35] Yeah, my dad's like 6, 3, 6, 4.

John Dehlin [00:19:38] He played football at the U. Yeah. Oh, wow.

Ellee Duke [00:19:40] Oh, yeah, big time. Like was like on his way to going pro and then he blew his knee and so. Yeah, that sucks.

John Dehlin [00:19:48] Are you comfortable sharing his name if there are any big youth. Oh, what's his name?

Ellee Duke [00:19:51] Yeah, Jim Duke.

John Dehlin [00:19:52] Jim Duke.

Ellee Duke [00:19:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:53] So he was an offensive lineman for the Star.

Ellee Duke [00:19:56] Yeah. And then he played center a bit as well. But yeah, really, really talented at football. Got like a full ride scholarship and yeah, just killed it. So my dad, I think he has that like athlete kind of, you know, just, like, tough, big guy, but he's like. He's a total teddy bear inside. But definitely growing up, my dad was. Yeah, just. Just intense and, like, strict, but super, super fun guy, but just, like, had that, like, authoritative role for sure. And my mom is definitely social butterfly. Just, like, super sweet, super bubbly. Really. Just, like the sweetest person you'll ever meet. And my dad's a little more, like, stoic, I would say.

Samantha Shelley [00:20:37] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [00:20:38] Really nice when you get to know him, but you can't. He's, like, hard to read. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:41] Okay.

Ellee Duke [00:20:42] My mom's just, like, hard on her sleeve. Like, you can just see everything she's feeling all the time.

John Dehlin [00:20:47] You said she was a relief study president.

Ellee Duke [00:20:49] No, she. I don't know. She's never a leaf society president, but she had. She had callings. Yeah, she was in Young Women's for, like, a long time when I was in young women's, which was super fun.

John Dehlin [00:21:00] Oh, nice.

Ellee Duke [00:21:01] Yeah. But, yeah, she's had callings and through the years, you know.

John Dehlin [00:21:06] And so would you say your family was pretty orthodox, like, kind of in Mormonism was an intense part of your identity?

Ellee Duke [00:21:13] Yeah, it was kind of like the whole world, our whole world was the church. And, like, kind of every aspect of our life revolved around the Mormon Church. Yeah, definitely.

John Dehlin [00:21:24] Okay. Like, for those who want to get a sense for what you mean by that, like, were there things your family didn't do or things your family did to kind of. Really.

Auz Engemann [00:21:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:38] Demonstrate your orthodoxy.

Ellee Duke [00:21:40] Like. Like this, like, Sundays were like, a very, like, holy day. So, like, we couldn't watch, like, certain movies on Sundays. It was only kind of, like, certain, like, church movies we could watch or, like, music we could listen to. We couldn't play with friends on Sundays. We never went out to eat. We never traveled. Like, Sunday was very, like, set aside as this.

John Dehlin [00:21:59] Like, didn't go out to eat on Sundays.

Ellee Duke [00:22:01] Yeah. No.

John Dehlin [00:22:01] Never play with friends.

Ellee Duke [00:22:02] Didn't spend money. Didn't play with friends.

John Dehlin [00:22:04] Maybe Disney movies or church movies, but no, like, worldly.

Ellee Duke [00:22:07] Yeah, not even Disney, just, like, more so, like. Like, there's, you know, like, Deseret Book. Yeah, like, all those kind of movies.

John Dehlin [00:22:14] So, like, Book of Mormon cartoons you could watch?

Ellee Duke [00:22:16] Yeah, or like, the. The movies about, like, missionaries and. Yeah, the old, like, Book of Mormon movies that were kind of, like, reenacted things like that. Yeah. And then just like I said prior, like, we would get up super early, read scriptures every morning. We'd always say family prayers, morning and night. Church every Sunday.

John Dehlin [00:22:39] No alcohol. Tobacco tea?

Ellee Duke [00:22:41] Yeah, no, coffee. Like, word of wisdom was a cute. My family or my parents were very, like, they followed that like, very strongly. Modesty was like a really big thing, which I thought that a lot.

John Dehlin [00:22:56] What did that mean in your family?

Ellee Duke [00:22:58] I think I was still kind of in the time period of like. I think this has kind of changed now from what I know. I don't really know, but it was. You as a woman are kind of responsible for young men's thoughts. And so if you're showing up to church or like young men, young women's activities wearing shorts that are too short or showing your shoulders, it was kind of like you're gonna cause them to think bad thoughts. And so it's your responsibility to be modest, because if not, then you're the reason that these boys are gonna be. Or men or whatever are gonna be having impure thoughts about you or whatever. So my mom was like, pretty. She was. She tried to be strict with modesty with me. And I definitely rebelled against it quite a bit. Like, I got a job teaching guitar lessons when I was like 15. So once I was making my own money, I would like buy the, like, short shorts from American Eagle and I would wear the long. Just long shorts that she would buy me. Just. And then I would change. Like, I would. I don't know if she even knows this, but I would. I would take them with me in my purse and I would change after I left, and then I changed back when I came home.

John Dehlin [00:24:11] Super common. I don't know, Smith, if you heard, you've heard this, but of Utah Mormon girls.

Samantha Shelley [00:24:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:16] Bring to school a second set of clothes and change into the clothes they really want to wear when they're in school.

Ellee Duke [00:24:23] I remember being at like, this is another example. Like, I was at a young woman's activity, which we had like weekly, where all the girls in the church of a certain age would all get together and there was like a leader that would be like in charge of the activity. And we did a swimming party once and everyone had one piece swimsuits on, except for this one girl that had a bikini on. And we're probably like 12, 13 years old. And I remember the activity day leader called her mom and asked if she could bring her a one piece swimsuit because. And I remember feeling like, oh, it's all my. Like just all of us kind of like. Like she's wearing a bikini and it was kind of like this shocking thing that so much of her body was showing. And I. I have just felt bad about that. Just because it's like, I remember feeling, like, judgmental towards her, like, oh, she's. That's bad. And she's so rebellious and. And then she was so embarrassed because her mom came and she changed, and it just like, you know what I mean? Just kind of was. And then here I, you know, I probably just wanted to wear a bikini myself, but didn't feel like I could, you know.

John Dehlin [00:25:32] But in Mormonism, bikinis are bad.

Ellee Duke [00:25:34] Yeah. Right?

Auz Engemann [00:25:35] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [00:25:35] I mean, it's just. It's too much skin.

John Dehlin [00:25:38] Were you gonna say something? Wrestling? Same.

Samantha Shelley [00:25:41] Well, I am curious about how you felt about getting baptized. I know we're at 12, 13 right now, but do you remember if it was, like, much of a decision or, like, were you excited to get baptized? Did it feel scary?

Ellee Duke [00:25:53] I was excited. Yeah. I was excited. I. I kind of just being that young, like, I just felt like, oh, this is just. This is what all of my family is. And so, like, why wouldn't I do it too? I definitely. It was very, like, emotional for me, and I just felt honestly, like, a lot of love and just kind of like, this is just what I'm supposed to do. But, yeah, being that young, like, I don't know if I made the decision because I felt the church was true as much as I just. I just felt like, oh, this is the next step for me in my life, and my family is going to be so proud of me for doing this. So that was kind of more the general mood, I would say.

Samantha Shelley [00:26:43] Yeah. You also said you pushed your mum on the modesty. How much was. I feel like a lot of people's Mormon stories, especially women, they talk about, like, various kinds of guilt and shame growing up and like, that, you know, just feeling like you're never doing enough. Did you also have that? Because it sounds like you were pretty, like, non. Rebellious, generally.

Ellee Duke [00:27:02] Yeah, I was very. I'm very much a perfectionist. And so. And also being a middle child, like, you kind of. I mean, I know everyone's experience is different, but for me, like, I always felt like I was kind of. I had to be kind of the peacemaker between everybody. And so from a really young age, like, my older brother in school would kind of get in trouble a lot, and then my little brother kind of in school would get in trouble a lot. And so I was always. Or like, you know, they'd have things with grades and whatnot, and my parents would get upset. And so I always kind of felt like, oh, I have to be the kid that keeps it together. And Gets good grades and, you know, just kind of falls in line, I guess would be a good way to put it. And. Yeah, like, when you. When you grow up in this one specific kind of way and your identity is so intertwined with this religion, it. It's like everything I did, every waking moment, pretty much I was thinking about, you know, I have to be good. I have to be polite. I need to be worthy. And from a really young age, like, I felt that way. And I had a lot of anxiety as a kid about never being enough and just kind of always feeling like, what else do I need to do to prove that I'm a good kid and a worthy member of the church? Like, I kind of just always felt like that since I was super young. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:28] Wow. Okay. Yeah. Do you remember your beliefs as a child? Like, did you even try to pray yourself?

Ellee Duke [00:28:39] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:39] Did you talk about your beliefs as a child before adolescence?

Ellee Duke [00:28:43] Yeah, I think because, like. Because I prayed and read scriptures so much with my family, that was just such a huge part of what we did. And my parents talked a lot, too, about, like, personal scripture study. And so usually after our family scripture study, we'd have, like, our personal scripture study where we'd go read our scriptures. And my parents taught us a lot about prayer and just, like, you know, thanking God for things and asking for things and. Yeah, so as a young kid, like, I, you know, like, super young, was like, reading the Book of Mormon by myself and saying prayers by myself. And, yeah, I definitely had good feelings, like, doing that, you know, I was just, like, super immersed in it. And so I just, like, it's all I knew, you know, and so I just was like, let's go, like, giddy up. We're like. We're all out here reading our scriptures and praying. And so I did it, and I definitely felt good things, you know, and. And felt connected to something at a lot of points, you know?

Samantha Shelley [00:29:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:49] So it was working for you as a kid?

Ellee Duke [00:29:50] Yeah, definitely. Definitely working for me as a kid.

John Dehlin [00:29:53] Do you remember, because you're. I ask everyone this, but especially musicians. Do you remember any primary songs that meant a lot to you? Any favorites?

Ellee Duke [00:30:00] Yeah, Child's Prayer. I really love that one a lot.

John Dehlin [00:30:04] What you love about that,

Ellee Duke [00:30:08] I think it was just, like, the melody and I don't know, like, it was always my favorite to sing in primary, and I think it was just because it felt. Felt the most honest. It was just genuinely asking, like, are you really there? And, like, do you. Do you actually answer my prayers? And I think As a young kid, I'd subconsciously just. That felt like the most real kind of just way to say something, you know? And so that was the one I always felt the most connected to. And when we'd sing in church and stuff, I always. I feel like I always sang that one really. Like, I would stand up straighter kind of.

John Dehlin [00:30:46] You know, there's kind of verse one where the kids sing in the Heavenly Father.

Ellee Duke [00:30:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:50] And then there's the second verse where what pray is there?

Ellee Duke [00:30:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:56] Speak.

Ellee Duke [00:30:57] He is listening.

Samantha Shelley [00:30:58] Yeah.

Auz Engemann [00:30:59] Even it's like.

John Dehlin [00:30:59] It's like. Is it the parents singing back to the kid? Is that right? You are his child. His love now surrounds you.

Auz Engemann [00:31:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:08] He hears your prayers.

Auz Engemann [00:31:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:10] It kind of switches the children and then it goes into a round, right?

Auz Engemann [00:31:14] Oh, yeah.

Ellee Duke [00:31:15] And you, like, layer it. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:19] Right? That's a great one.

Ellee Duke [00:31:21] It is.

John Dehlin [00:31:22] Did you ever hear that one, Samantha? You have no idea what we're talking about.

Samantha Shelley [00:31:25] That round slaps I love around.

Ellee Duke [00:31:26] Oh, it does slap it.

Auz Engemann [00:31:28] Honestly, even as an adult, like, growing up, I would listen back to that song and be like, wow, it's a good. It, like, it would hit me hard even as an adult. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:36] So everyone pause this episode.

Ellee Duke [00:31:38] Listen to the rounds. Or John can just.

Samantha Shelley [00:31:42] We.

Ellee Duke [00:31:42] You can sing.

John Dehlin [00:31:45] Are you really there? I'm not gonna inflict everyone. It's part of my shtick anyway. Thanks for entertaining that.

Ellee Duke [00:31:54] Of course. I got you.

John Dehlin [00:31:55] Okay, so. Yeah. So. Okay, so you're having, like an idyllic. Is it fair to say? I mean, your dad' bishop, you're restoring a barn. You're like Mormon and praying to Heavenly father. Yeah, it sounds like idyllic Mormon. And you're in Draper, Utah, almost in the shadows of the everlasting hills. You know what I mean? Like, this is sounding like an idyllic Mormon upbringing. Sammy, what do you think?

Samantha Shelley [00:32:21] Yeah, I mean, so far, based on what you've said, it sounds like it. Well, maybe there were, like, more positive elements in your Mormon upbringing than maybe some people have, and so it didn't feel quite so horrible. It sounds like you had a nice childhood.

Ellee Duke [00:32:35] Yeah, I definitely did.

John Dehlin [00:32:37] That's how I think of my Mormon. Every is awesome. So.

Ellee Duke [00:32:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:40] Yeah. Okay. Okay. So anything else you want to share about your pre adolescent years? Either that happened to your family or that happened to you. That's important for your story.

Discovering Music and Early Artistic Passions

Ellee Duke [00:32:53] Pre adolescent. Is that like pre.

John Dehlin [00:32:54] Preteen.

Ellee Duke [00:32:55] Preteen?

John Dehlin [00:32:59] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [00:32:59] No, I was just. I was just a happy kid and I wasn't too worried about. I had. I had anxiety as a kid. But honestly, I wasn't too worried about much. You know, everything just kind of felt right. And my parents were great parents, and we just had our rules. And as long as I was following the rules, like, I always felt. I always felt okay, you know?

John Dehlin [00:33:20] So you're living the Utah Mormon girl dream.

Samantha Shelley [00:33:23] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:33:24] All right, all right.

Ellee Duke [00:33:26] Just.

Samantha Shelley [00:33:26] Sorry.

John Dehlin [00:33:27] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:33:27] Just wanted to know, did you start. Did your singing talent become apparent in early childhood?

Ellee Duke [00:33:33] Yes. So when I was five years old, my parents put me in piano lessons, and I hated it. But I didn't hate the fact that I could go home and I started to learn the notes and the chords, and I started to write my own songs. So my teacher at the time would get really frustrated because I would come to our lessons and I'd be like, look at this new song I wrote. But I would never practice, like, any of the songs she gave me. And so I think my parents were, like, they were really supportive of it because I think they were just like, okay, this is cool that you're finding this outlet and you're. You're not really practicing. But they kind of said, like, if you guys can just learn how to play the hymns, then you can kind of be done with lessons, Basically, which I never learned how to play the hymns. I just kept trying to write my own songs. But I just wanted to learn, like, I wanted to learn the Disney songs, and I wanted to learn songs that I could sing and play because, yeah, I was just a super young kid. Like, the Disney movies and which ones? Like Pocahontas and Mulan and, like, the music from Cinderella. Like Snow White, Beauty and the Beast. Like, just kind of like the OG Little Mermaid. Like, the music from those movies. I would watch them over and over and over, and I would learn the songs and I would sing it.

John Dehlin [00:34:53] And were you more Ariel or more Belle? Which were you?

Ellee Duke [00:34:58] Probably two genders. Probably Belle. Honestly, I loved, like. I loved a bad boy. Like the Beast. Yeah. Or not Gaston. He was gross, but the Beast. Like, I was like, oh, he's just. Misunderstood tale as old as time. Yeah. I was obsessed.

John Dehlin [00:35:17] Is that Celine Dion? Did you do a Celine Dion?

Ellee Duke [00:35:20] I kind of. I don't know if I kind of did. Yeah. But. And then my mom had this giant, like, giant boombox. I mean, it was literally huge. And she got all these different CDs when we were remodeling the house, and so she'd just play, you know. You know, Celine Dion, she'd play. Martina McBride, she'd play. I'm trying to Remember who else? Like, a lot of country music and, like, Sara Bareilles, Colby Kelly, like, kind of all that stuff. My mom. And then I would just be out there with her painting, and I'd just be singing and learning all the words and. Yeah, just from a really young age, I was just, like, so obsessed with music and writing songs.

John Dehlin [00:36:08] So in addition to the Disney soundtracks, were there. You mentioned some artists, but I'm curious what artists became, like, the ones you really, really loved and gravitated to.

Ellee Duke [00:36:19] I was obsessed with Celine Dion, like, super young. And then it kind of morphed into, like, Hilary Duff, like, Disney Channel kind of teens. Or, like, those girls I just looked up to, like, that's so Raven. Like, her music. Or, like, the Cheetah Girls. And then Taylor Swift. I was obsessed. I mean, I was like. I think I was 11 or 12 when teardrops on my guitar came out, and I was like, okay, I have to learn guitar. And so Rihanna. I was obsessed with Rihanna and, like, Beyonce. Jesse McCartney. I was convinced I was gonna marry him. Backstreet Boys. I was obsessed. I thought Nick was so hot, like, the lead singer. His little, like, blonde tips. You know how all the boys, like, had that for a face?

Auz Engemann [00:37:07] Frosted tips.

Ellee Duke [00:37:08] Frosted tips. Yeah. Yeah. It was just. And then I kind of just. I got into John Mayer. I got super into, like, rock. I loved. I would watch American Idol as a super young kid, and every time at recess, like, whoever was, like, the top two girls, I'd always be like, be like, oh, I'm this person. Like, at recess, when me and my friends would, like, play pretend games, I'd always be the name of someone on American Idol, and everyone's like, who is that? I'm like, it's like this girl on American Idol. So, yeah, I was just obsessed with all things music. And anyone who sang, really. I was just like, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:48] Was there a point where you remember, like, I want to do that? Like, where you're actually seriously thinking, I want to?

Ellee Duke [00:37:54] I think I was, like, 11. I saved up all my allowance, and I went to Radio Shack, and I bought this pink Barbie karaoke machine. And at every family party, I would, like, make my family listen to me sing. And I'd come out and I would get, like, instrumental versions of, like, CDs, and I would sing NSYNC and Backstreet Boys and Hillary Duff and, like, all those, like, OG early 2000s artists, and I just loved it. And I think I just. In my mind, I was just like, this is what I'm Gonna do. And, like, whenever anyone asked me, I'd be like, oh, I want to be a singer when I grow up, I want to be a songwriter.

Samantha Shelley [00:38:38] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [00:38:39] Like, you know, from 5 to 11 that, like, really just, like, developed quickly.

John Dehlin [00:38:46] Okay.

Ellee Duke [00:38:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:49] Okay. And were you. I mean, you hear about, like, these parents that are, like, I don't know, showbiz parents. I don't know what to call them, where they're like.

Ellee Duke [00:38:56] Like a momager.

John Dehlin [00:38:58] Yeah, yeah. Like David Archuleta's dad or whatever.

Ellee Duke [00:39:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:02] Like, did your parents glom onto that and really, like, we're going to get you in all the lessons and tap and dance and we're going to make you a star? Or was it more just like, okay, go figure it out?

Ellee Duke [00:39:12] You know, they. I would say, like, they weren't, like. It wasn't. No, they were, like, really supportive. And I don't feel like it was in a way that was like, oh, we're gonna, like, live through you with this thing that you're doing. You know, it was more so, like, they, like, my mom is, like, my biggest fan, and, like, she loves, like, when I was super little, like, I would write songs, and she'd always want to hear them, and they really believed in me and, like, believed that I had talent. So they got me into singing lessons. And so I took that for a while, and, like, it wasn't until high school that I kind of. You know, people are, like, asking you, oh, where are you gonna go to college? And, like, what are you gonna study? And what. You know, what's the next steps for you? And it was in high school that I started making trips to Nashville, and my parents, like, took me out there, like, paid for it. They helped me go out there because we didn't really know how to do that. Like, how do you do this as a job? And everyone we had talked to was like, you need to get signed by, like, a label or a publishing company or some. Somebody that has a team that, like, knows what to do with a talent of songwriting and singing. And so my parents definitely just, like, stepped to the plate and were like, cool, you want to do this? Like, we'll try to help you figure it out. So they, like, they were really supportive.

Auz Engemann [00:40:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:39] Like, from the beginning, other than taking lessons, starting early on, seeing lessons, was it classical or was it pop?

Ellee Duke [00:40:48] So I actually took from David Archuleta's vocal coach, Dean Kalin. And so it was. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:54] Like, that had to have been expensive for your parents.

Ellee Duke [00:40:57] Yeah, it wasn't cheap, for sure. And I Think I took from him for about like nine months to a year maybe and got so many great gems out of that. And then he ended up because he has like a direct connection with American Idol and so he gets like us a kind of private tryout for his students. And so I ended up doing that when I was like 17.

John Dehlin [00:41:19] You tried it for American Idol?

Ellee Duke [00:41:21] I did, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:22] We're jumping ahead, but. Oh yeah, we'll jump back.

Ellee Duke [00:41:24] But yeah, I made it to Hollywood week and we can jump back. But at the same time, I had been going to Nashville and gotten offered a record deal at the same time that I made it to Hollywood week on American Idol. So I kind of had to choose which one to do and I didn't choose American Idol. So I called the producers and I was like, yo, I'm gonna go a different route and thanks so much for the opportunity.

John Dehlin [00:41:49] And that was it too big for American.

Samantha Shelley [00:41:51] I know. I was like, what, Flex?

John Dehlin [00:41:57] So went from 11 to Nashville?

Auz Engemann [00:42:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:01] What were you doing in Utah to build your career?

Samantha Shelley [00:42:03] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [00:42:04] So When I was 13, I met Paul Cardall and Trevor Price who was

John Dehlin [00:42:10] just for viewers and listeners who don't know. Sorry to interrupt. Paul's been on Mormon Stories, so he's like a really well known global

Ellee Duke [00:42:19] pianist,

John Dehlin [00:42:20] composer who's probably had more Spotify listens of Mormon hymns than anyone in the world because he would do piano compositions of Mormon.

Ellee Duke [00:42:30] His own like renditions. Yeah. And they're. Yeah, wildly successful. He's extremely talented and he even wrote

John Dehlin [00:42:37] a hymn with Bednar that Elder Bednar released the Christ or something like that.

Ellee Duke [00:42:44] I did not know that.

John Dehlin [00:42:45] So. So everyone. Well, first of all, shout out to Paul, we love you. Second of all, check out, we'll put in the show notes our link to our interview with Paul Cardall because he's a stud.

Ellee Duke [00:42:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:54] Great guy. And yeah. So anyway, so you met Paul.

Ellee Duke [00:42:59] Yeah, so I met Paul and he, you know, thought I had some talent. And so he introduced me to Trevor, who was a producer that he had worked with and was really good friends with. And we basically made like a little album of all the songs that I'd written from like, you know, ages probably 9 to 13. And I think it had 10 songs on it and we recorded it in Trevor's parents basement in Draper. And yeah, I did a photo shoot and basically had this little demo and then I actually opened for Paul Cardall at one of his shows. I think it was the Draper Amphitheater that I opened for him. And then there was like a couple other different Bands in Utah, like the Charlie Jenkins band that used to play here a lot. I don't know if you've heard of them, but I used to open for him a couple times. And then Lindsey Sterling actually was opening for Charlie Jenkins because she was in his band as his violinist at the time.

John Dehlin [00:44:03] She's the one that plays the violin?

Ellee Duke [00:44:05] Yeah, she was, like, on America's Got Talent, and now she's this amazing, huge success. But, yeah, I remember, like, her doing her violin set basically after I had played an opening slot, and then she played in Charlie's band for, like, the big show. And so I kind of knew her, like, right. Right before, like, her career just took off. And so I just kind of got in the scene as much as I could playing shows. I started playing at weddings when I was in high school. I. My high school had this singing competition called Alta Idol that was kind of like a talent show, and I ended up playing original music, and I ended up winning, like, my sophomore year, and I got, like, a standing ovation.

John Dehlin [00:44:50] Idol.

Ellee Duke [00:44:51] Yeah, like, Alta Idol. And it was, like, the kind of the first, like, biggest performance in front of my peers that I'd ever done. And I played a song called you're the other half of my hole that was about this guy I had a crush on, and basically, yeah, ended up. Ended up winning the. The talent show or whatever. And then the next year, I was a judge for them, like, at my high school, which was kind of crazy. And so everyone just kind of started to know me as, like, this singer that wrote songs. And, yeah, everyone was kind of like, you're gonna make it big and be famous. And that was kind of the general, I guess. The more I performed, the more I played, the more I did. And then American Idol, people just kind of would say those kind of things to me. And so I kind of felt like, okay, cool. This is what I'm supposed to do. And other people are validating it outside of me.

John Dehlin [00:45:46] You know, that's got to be exciting. So, yeah. So as you're kind of rising to early stardom, how's your Mormon journey going in terms of, like, your spirituality, your family's spirituality? You're now in the teen years where you're, you know, you're starting to, you know, mature you. You know, you. In adolescence, you even start liking boys, maybe, I assume, and dating?

Ellee Duke [00:46:15] Oh, definitely.

Auz Engemann [00:46:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:16] And. But then there's all the messages the church sends about dating and about the purpose in life and the role of women. So let's start by you talking about the messages you received about what a woman's role is as a Mormon woman and how you should behave, especially in dating and relationships with boys. And then also how you were thinking about that relative to your growing career.

Gender Roles, Testimony, and Chastity in Teenage Years

Ellee Duke [00:46:44] Yeah, so in my home, like, my dad was very much like, patriarchal and like, very much in that role. And so growing up, like, as a kid, like, I definitely kind of felt like my dad was, you know, how do I say it? Like, yeah, just the leader of our family in a. In a bigger way than my mom was. And so I. That was kind of hard for me at points, to be honest, just because I would, I would see certain things where I, I didn't want to be told what to do by men or anyone in general. Honestly, I was like a pretty independent kid even coming into high school. And so I was a very much like, goody good two shoes. And so I kind of just kept that to myself as much as I could. But yeah, I definitely noticed that, like, men were more esteemed than women in a lot of ways and like, taken more seriously and made the rules. And women, it was kind of the general consensus, especially growing up in Utah, of like, when you're a woman, it's like your role is kind of, you know, to be polite and quiet and not make a stink about things and kind of honor the man and his wishes and kind of support him in his role. And I definitely saw that a bit and didn't like it, honestly, but kind of just dealt with it. But as a really young kid, like, I didn't want to get married. Like, I was very much like, I don't have any interest in like, being a wife. Whereas, like, a lot of my friends were like, already making pinterest boards of their wedding dress and like all these things that they're so excited about. And I kind of felt like, I guess as a, as a woman that had these big dreams of being a singer and having this really, like, you know, having a career, I didn't know, like, how that would fit into the Mormon religion. And so as I was performing and when I'd sing at church and I sang at firesides and I sang it state conferences and I sang at girls camp and all these, like, church related activities, people would come up to me and they'd start saying things like, oh my gosh, when you're famous, you're gonna convert so many people to the church and when you make it big, you're gonna be this example for all of us and you're gonna like, save so many People's like, souls, essentially. And like, oh, my gosh, please, you know, you need to always stay modest because my daughters are watching you and so many girls look up to you. And so years and years and years, you know, from probably When I was 13 until I left for Nashville at 18, I had been told that just over and over and over and over. And I think also, you know, feeling like, okay, if I'm gonna be Mormon and have a career in this religion, the only way for me to kind of justify it being okay is if it's all kind of for this bigger purpose of me kind of converting people and bringing people to the church and, like, trying to get to this point where I have this big platform that I can use to be this, like, example. And so I sort of felt like it wasn't. It wasn't good enough for me to just want to be a singer. It had to be tied to this, you know, much deep, big, intense purpose with the church. Otherwise, it wasn't something I should do or I would be successful at. And so that was ingrained in me from a young age, like, feeling like, you know, you start seeing people going on missions and getting married, and I kind of felt like, okay, my mission is becoming the singer and using my example and role and platform to bring people to the church, basically. But not in the Christian market, in, like, the pop or country or whatever market of music, basically.

Samantha Shelley [00:50:46] So you knew you didn't want to make, like, Mormon music.

Ellee Duke [00:50:48] Yeah, yeah, definitely. Like, none of the songs. I never wrote religious music, really. It may be, like, I did one song for an album that Paul made that he asked me to write a song for called Lift Me out, which was probably the only, like, religious song. I mean, that wasn't even religious. It was more just like, spiritual because it was just a non denominational, more like Christian album. But that was like, the only song that I'd written about church, I guess.

John Dehlin [00:51:15] And it's called Make Me Out.

Ellee Duke [00:51:17] Lift Me Out.

John Dehlin [00:51:18] Lift Me Out.

Ellee Duke [00:51:19] Yeah. And it's on the Worth of Souls album. And that was a great experience, but I just. I knew I didn't. I was writing songs about boys and my crushes and heartbreaks and friendships and, you know, childhood. And just like, that's. That's what I was, like, writing about and felt natural to me. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:40] So as I think about growing up in the church, like, the Osmonds were just such a huge deal. Like, in the 70s, Donnie and Marie were a huge deal. They had their own variety TV show, and then the Osmond brothers were like a white version of the Jackson 5 and they were a global phenomenon. And Samantha, this ties to you a little bit because as I've traveled through the uk, there are entire generations of UK Mormons who joined the church in the wave of the Osmond sort of phenomenon that swept the world. Is that something. Is this even news to you, Samantha,

Samantha Shelley [00:52:17] or that is a little bit news to you?

John Dehlin [00:52:18] I'm Brit explaining you.

Samantha Shelley [00:52:20] Thank you, John. Well, my mom, I think, loved Donnie and Marie, but I never remember her mentioning that they were Mormon. I don't feel. So maybe there's a divide because I just feel like a lot of British people don't really care about what religion and American singers, I don't know. Yeah, I had heard of Donnie and Marie growing up, but I hadn't heard of Mormonism.

John Dehlin [00:52:39] So yeah, in my experience, a ton of. Of British people joined the church, heavily influenced by the Osmond wave. And. But, but Mormon had. Mormonism has this rich tradition of celebrities. Gordon Jump was a, was an actor on WKRP in Cincinnati who was also incidentally in one of the original temple movies. But then you fast forward, there's, you know, athletes like Steve Young that are a huge deal. But then, you know, in recent years, there's Imagine Dragons, there's. There's Tyler Glenn and Neon Trees, there's David Archuleta. And whether it's athletes or musicians. Yeah. There's always like, do they serve a mission or not? Well, maybe their music is. Or their athleticism is their mission. But certainly the church wants, you know, and does Gladys Knight, you know, another example, put them up front.

Ellee Duke [00:53:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:36] And say this is. You lead with. It's like Scientology. I'm sorry, I'm just kind of fumbling as I think about this. But just like Scientology leads with Tom Cruise, they lead with John Travolta and Kelly Preston.

Auz Engemann [00:53:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:49] You know, oftentimes high demand religions lead with their celebrities and so that their Mormon is. I guess I'm saying Mormonism has this rich tradition of global celebrities that have been an important part of, if you're being cynical, kind of the church's pr.

Auz Engemann [00:54:07] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:54:07] But also if you're not, if you're being faithful Mormon, then they've been an important part of the church's missionary work. And so I guess I'm just acknowledging that that's a thing and it was a thing before you ever started. And it sounds like even in your teen years you were starting to feel that.

Ellee Duke [00:54:26] Yeah, definitely.

John Dehlin [00:54:27] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:54:28] Huh.

John Dehlin [00:54:28] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [00:54:29] 100%.

John Dehlin [00:54:30] Yeah.

Auz Engemann [00:54:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:30] And. And does that make you feel excited? Does it make you feel awful? Pressured?

Auz Engemann [00:54:35] How does it feel?

Ellee Duke [00:54:36] Yeah, I felt. I felt pressure, but I also felt kind of like. Yeah, just like, oh, wow. Like, you know, a lot is expected of me. And so I felt kind of, like, honored by it, but also pressured by it and also excited, but also terrified, because it's like, you just feel this. Like everyone is watching you, which who knows to what extent people actually even were. But, you know, I just felt. Yeah, a lot of pressure, I would say. But also, you know, my love and passion for music was real and so, like, genuine. And the songs that I wrote, like, literally had nothing to do with religion or Mormonism or anything, but it was just like these two worlds that just kind of combined over time and. Yeah. Just definitely presented a whole slew of things. Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:34] Were you. Right fast. Were you aware of Mindy Gledhill?

Ellee Duke [00:55:36] Yes, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. At a young age. And I loved her song all the Pennies, like, was, like, one of my favorite songs. And she definitely inspired me a lot with, like, songwriting and her just, like, quirky style and. Yeah, I thought she was just. Yeah, she's amazing.

John Dehlin [00:55:56] Okay. All right. So really. So how was your testimony developing in your teen years? Talk about dating. Talk if you. If love. Chastity kind of stuff was even a thing. Worthiness stuff and your testimony. So talk about testimony, Law of chastity, worthiness, dating, all of that.

Ellee Duke [00:56:19] Because that's.

John Dehlin [00:56:20] If. If that's even relevant.

Ellee Duke [00:56:21] Yeah, I. I felt, you know, my testimony was strong. I believed in the church. I believed in, you know, God and the Book of Mormon. And I. Yeah, I felt like I had a strong testimony. I. When I was, I think, 12 or 13, I had a lesson about chastity. That was the cupcake lesson. And so the teacher.

John Dehlin [00:56:49] That's what that is.

Ellee Duke [00:56:49] Yeah, the teacher brought in a bunch of cupcakes and took one of them and took a bite out of it. Or. No, she. She had the cupcake just beautiful, perfect. And she was like, who wants it? And everyone raised their hand, and then she took a bite out of it, and she was like, okay, now who wants it? And some people still raise their hand, you know, to be funny, whatever. And then she pulled out, like, a jar of dirt, and she, like, poured some dirt on it, and she's like, okay, now who wants it? And, like, no one raised their hand. And so the lesson was like, this cupcake represents your purity, your chastity, your virtue. And when you give that away to somebody outside of marriage, you're like, defiling yourself where no one is gonna want it anymore, essentially. And I don't think it was said that, like, brutally, but it was displayed that brutally. And I know that I definitely. I was terrified, like, terrified of sex, of anything around that. I just felt like, it's bad. Don't go there. And so I was like. I got to the point where, like, you know, I'd have, like, a steamy makeout with someone in high school and whatnot.

John Dehlin [00:57:59] Well, you talked about those parties.

Ellee Duke [00:58:00] Yeah. Like, I would. I would kiss people, but I would never go past Pepperwood parties. Were they called Pepperwood?

Auz Engemann [00:58:06] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [00:58:06] Kissing parties. Pepperwood party, yeah. Yeah. So I definitely, like, I had, you know, I dated people in high school, but my parents were very much like, you know, having a boyfriend is. Is bad or, like, having a serious relationship is bad because most of the boys got to go on missions anyway. And so there's no point to, like, get serious with somebody. And then if you get serious with somebody, then bad things can happen. And, you know, the physical aspect of it, things can go too far. And so, yeah, I was just very scared about that whole world and kind of just tried to steer clear of it. So I would kind of. I just always had a point where I would just, like, stop or I would like. I just was very, very diligent in, like, not going past a certain point with anybody. And I didn't my entire, like, high school years. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:58:57] The implication of that object lesson that we call those object lessons in Mormonism, and it. Sometimes it's the licked cupcake. It's the chewed gum.

Ellee Duke [00:59:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:07] And then they chew the gum and say, if you have premarital sex, you're like, this chewed gum.

Samantha Shelley [00:59:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:12] What's the dollar bill one?

Ellee Duke [00:59:14] I think it's like a brand new dollar bill. It's, you know, it's perfect. There's no wrinkles. And then if you just scrunch it up, like, it just looks, like, dirty and just like, ugh.

Auz Engemann [00:59:25] That one's better, though, because it's still, like, it still was worth a dollar.

Ellee Duke [00:59:28] Right.

Auz Engemann [00:59:28] You know, so at least that one's not like.

Ellee Duke [00:59:30] Yeah, that's probably the best of all of them.

John Dehlin [00:59:34] I mean, we're laughing.

Ellee Duke [00:59:35] The least toxic of all of them.

Auz Engemann [00:59:36] Yeah. But it is. It's intense.

John Dehlin [00:59:38] It's kind of heavy, dark stuff. Another one that I know of is the board nail with the board. So they'll have a board that's got no holes in it.

Samantha Shelley [00:59:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:46] And then you. You nail a nail into it, which is a Weird metaphor. And then. And then even. And then you. And then you take the nail out and the hole's still there. And so the message is your. And this is the thing you said that the message you got was that no one will want you. But as soon as you're adding dirt to the cupcake or a nail to the board, there's also this idea that you're ruined.

Ellee Duke [01:00:13] Yeah. You're broken, you're. You're dirty, and, like, there's no hope for you at that point, essentially. And I. And I truly. Like, I perceived it that way, like, very literally. And I'm sure, you know, everyone has different. Like, everyone, I believe they have good intentions and they think they're teaching something that probably is going to help you be safe to an extent. But I think that's the struggle, is that a lot of us do take it very literally. And that really hurts your spirit and your identity and your soul and how you feel about yourself based on your decisions and.

Auz Engemann [01:00:50] Well, and especially because it's from such a young age, like, being taught that when you're so little, like, it just gets ingrained into you, and then you go forward thinking that that is just how it's going to be if you mess up. Right.

Ellee Duke [01:01:02] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:01:04] I feel like it's giving you, like, it's teaching you to shrink your sexuality as much as possible into the smallest box. Whereas I feel like the healthiest, happiest sexuality is like an exp. Chance of you. So it's like, you know, the idea that you're, like, it's becoming less and less valuable the more you engage with it.

Ellee Duke [01:01:21] It's. Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:01:22] Wild.

Ellee Duke [01:01:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:25] And potentially damaging over time.

Auz Engemann [01:01:26] Absolutely.

Ellee Duke [01:01:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:28] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [01:01:29] That was. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:32] Okay, so. And if we're taking our best faith interpretation of that teaching, whether this is conscious or not, I can see that whether it's a religion or parents, they don't want their kid having unwed pregnancies. They don't want their kid having STIs. You know what I mean? There are practical. They don't want their kid getting assaulted or abused.

Ellee Duke [01:01:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:54] And so, you know, there are good intentions behind that.

Ellee Duke [01:02:00] Kids have a moral. Moral compass with sex and that aspect. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:06] And in that sense, it was effective from you in that you graduate. Is it fair to say you graduated from high school? Quote, I hate. This is an awful term. I'm air quoting it a virgin. You know, like.

Ellee Duke [01:02:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:16] You were able to obey the law of chastity all the way through high school.

Ellee Duke [01:02:20] Oh, yeah. No one had ever touched my boobs. Literally nothing. Maybe, like, once, but not for long. So I would have moved their hand, you know. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:30] Yeah. That's how I. That's how it was for me.

Ellee Duke [01:02:32] Yeah. Like, nothing past kissing at all. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:35] And so. So did you think of the church's standards around morality as. As a good thing through high school, or was it a source of conflict or problem for you?

Ellee Duke [01:02:49] I like to kind of give this a little more context. Even, like, growing up, my parents, like, my dad specifically, like, anytime we were watching a movie or a TV show and like, a kissing scene or like, even just like a, you know, a very innocent kissing scene that wasn't like, you know, some of the things nowadays where you're like, it's kind of normal now, but, like, my parents would. It's like, close your eyes, close your eyes. Fast forward. You know, look away. And so even from, like, a really young age, like, even in my own household, like, any kind of physical affection on TV and media, like, my parents kind of had this attitude towards it that it was bad and, like, don't look at it. Look away. And so seeing, you know, my parents, these people that I idolize, and I. I, you know, think the world of, like, feel that way about it also. They're not very affectionate themselves. And so I feel like I just kind of, I think, thought, okay, these things are just bad and I'll just kind of put them off until maybe I meet somebody in the far, far future, and then maybe it's okay if we get married and blah, blah. But I kind of just, like, out of sight, out of mind. Like, I just didn't.

Samantha Shelley [01:04:06] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [01:04:07] I just didn't engage with it really, at all. And just my childhood, it being such a kind of this scary bad thing. Yeah. Just pretty much planted that seed. So I was just kind of stuck in that place. I would say.

John Dehlin [01:04:22] Okay.

Ellee Duke [01:04:23] Yeah. Was that the question? I feel like.

John Dehlin [01:04:24] Yeah. No, I mean, I. I think maybe this comes back into your story a little bit later.

Ellee Duke [01:04:28] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:04:28] It's kind of the stage.

Ellee Duke [01:04:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:04:31] But I was just. I was just curious, you know, when I was. When I graduated from high school, I was proud to be a virgin. I was proud.

Ellee Duke [01:04:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:04:39] So live the law of chastity. It made me feel, frankly, superior.

Samantha Shelley [01:04:44] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [01:04:45] My high school peers, I definitely felt that way. And like, the. So the senior year, Pepperwood party, I remember, like, I specifically didn't kiss anybody. And I remember tweeting about it because I wanted to be able to be like, I didn't kiss anyone at Pepperwood party. You Know, so dumb, but like I felt, yeah. Like a chip on my shoulder. Like, oh, this makes me different and kind of special because I'm not doing all these things that everyone else is doing, you know?

John Dehlin [01:05:11] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [01:05:11] Yeah. So I felt the same way and I felt proud of it and like, oh, I'm a good person because I did this. It makes me a good person.

John Dehlin [01:05:19] Yeah. And that's a double edged evaluation. If you're, if you're a good person by living the church's standards, then what happens if you slip up? Right.

Auz Engemann [01:05:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:31] Is that right? Yeah.

Ellee Duke [01:05:33] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:05:33] Yeah. Anything you want to add there, Samantha?

Samantha Shelley [01:05:35] No.

John Dehlin [01:05:36] Okay. All right. Okay. So from there, so you're reaching. Okay. What about your testimony really quick?

Ellee Duke [01:05:47] My testimony? Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:49] Yeah. Did you have doubts? Did you know questions? You went to seminary? Did you, you know, your relationship with Heavenly Father? How did you know all that?

Ellee Duke [01:05:58] I went to seminary, I think, like, I think like I didn't, I didn't love seminary. Like they, they had asked me to be like one of the seminary. Like, I don't remember what it was called, but kind of like a leader that, you know, someone that came in and, and I think a lot of people knew who I was because of my singing and the talent show and Alta Idol and all these things. And so part of me had kind of felt like, are you just asking me because if I'm going to seminary, then maybe like it was, you know what I mean, like this effect. So I don't know. I think that I just, I, I didn't end up doing it because I just didn't really want to. And my testimony was, it was good. It was all I knew. It was just like all I'd been given, all I'd ever known. And so I thought everything was dandy. And like I said before, as long as I was like going to church and like doing everything right, to me that kind of meant you're good with God. And like my testimony was good because I'm a good person. I'm living worthy, I'm doing everything right, quote unquote. I'm not, you know, doing drugs and drinking and having sex and I'm going to church and I'm doing all these things. And so for me, that was almost kind of like my testimony of like, I feel like I'm good with God and if I'm good, God will keep blessing me to like be rewarded in my career or whatever. And so it was just kind of a weird, I don't know, like my, I would say my testimony was good. But it was kind of just my lifestyle. Like, I don't. It just wasn't. I. I just feel like I relied a lot as well on my parents, testimony and the community and just kind of. It's just what you do here, you know, Like. And I'd never done anything else, so to as much as I can say, like, it was good and I was. I felt as connected as I could. Being that was the only thing that I've. I'd ever connected to, you know?

John Dehlin [01:07:56] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [01:07:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:57] Makes sense.

Ellee Duke [01:07:58] Yeah.

Pursuing a Music Career and Talent Competitions

John Dehlin [01:07:59] So was it tough to juggle your aspiring career in school or not?

Auz Engemann [01:08:06] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [01:08:06] So I ended up graduating early my senior year, and that was the year that I got offered a record deal by Big Machine in.

John Dehlin [01:08:15] You talk about that story.

Ellee Duke [01:08:17] Yeah, I. I just started making trips out there when I was like, I think I was 15 the first time I went out. And I ended up meeting this guy named Will Robinson who was like a really well known songwriter. He'd had a lot of big hits. He kind of just in passing heard my music at a studio and was just like, we should write together and I want to introduce you to some people. And so kind of just like slowly but surely, like, I planned some more writing trips that he was sort of mentoring and my mom would come out with me and, you know, we'd get dinner with him and he was introducing me to people and he ended up introducing me to like, all the labels and all the publishers and all the music companies. And he just really believed in me. And I had tried out for American Idol and he was kind of one of the people that was like, you know, if you do American Idol, first of all, you might not win. And second of all, there's kind of like a stigma sometimes about artists that have done American Idol because not a ton of them go on to like, really have a huge successful career. Like David Archuleta has Carrie Underwood, Chris Daughtry, Kelly Clarkson. And then you're kind of like, who else? You know? So he kind of was saying to me, like, getting a. Getting a record deal would be like the better move. And so that was a big part, I think too, of kind of me feeling like, okay, American Idol probably isn't the best path. And then, yeah, within a week, I met with Big Machine. I played him some songs.

John Dehlin [01:09:46] Sorry, really, really quick.

Ellee Duke [01:09:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:09:48] What was it like to audition? Like, was your audition ever, like, televised?

Ellee Duke [01:09:52] I think they televised my audition, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:09:55] Well, that's a huge deal. Was that your first national televising?

Ellee Duke [01:10:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:01] Of your work?

Ellee Duke [01:10:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:03] Like, was your Whole high school super stoked about it.

Ellee Duke [01:10:05] And, like, I think they were. But then it's like there was this news article in the. In the Utah paper that, like, I wasn't doing it anymore and I was, like, moving to Nashville, so people were, like, excited. But then it's like, I wasn't on the show, so then it was just kind of like, okay. But, yeah, it was cool.

John Dehlin [01:10:21] It was definitely about just what it's like to audition.

Ellee Duke [01:10:24] Yeah. Like, I mean, it was really intense. There was tons of people. They had all these tents set up in this. I remember. I think it was at the Staples center or some, like, big arena. And I. No, in. In Utah. In Salt Lake.

Auz Engemann [01:10:39] The. The Delta or.

Ellee Duke [01:10:40] Sorry, the Delta Center.

John Dehlin [01:10:41] Vivint. Whatever.

Ellee Duke [01:10:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:43] Energy Solutions. Whatever.

Ellee Duke [01:10:44] Yeah, they had literally just tents separating people. Auditioning. And so I went through. I think it was like six or seven rounds of auditioning.

John Dehlin [01:10:53] You sing your own songs or.

Ellee Duke [01:10:55] No, I sang covers. I sang Yellow by Coldplay. Yeah, I did a cover of that

Samantha Shelley [01:11:00] when I was a teenager.

Ellee Duke [01:11:01] Really?

John Dehlin [01:11:01] It's on YouTube still, right? Yeah, we'll put a link to that in the show. Notes.

Auz Engemann [01:11:05] Great song.

Ellee Duke [01:11:06] So good.

Auz Engemann [01:11:07] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [01:11:07] And so then it was. It was Harry Connick Jr. Keith Urban.

John Dehlin [01:11:11] Wait, which Harry connects them?

Samantha Shelley [01:11:12] Huh?

John Dehlin [01:11:13] Which Harry Connor?

Ellee Duke [01:11:14] No, I'm saying the judges at the time. What was Harry Connick Jr. Keith Urban, J&Jlo. I think it was just those three.

John Dehlin [01:11:21] What, you sang in front of them?

Ellee Duke [01:11:23] Yeah, so I sang in front of them. JLO didn't like me, but Keith and Harry loved me and were like, we're going to put you through. And so I got my golden ticket. And Ryan Seacrest is so short.

Samantha Shelley [01:11:37] Like, he.

Ellee Duke [01:11:38] My dad was there, too. And my. You know, my dad's like 6, 4, and Ryan Seacrest was just this tiny little man and, like, so, like, his face, like, he doesn't age. I was like, oh, my gosh. You like a wax figurine. But he was super nice. I came out and he was like,

Auz Engemann [01:11:51] how do you feel?

Ellee Duke [01:11:51] And I was just like, good and was probably really awkward and just didn't know what to do and ran off.

John Dehlin [01:11:58] And they're. They're videoing every moment.

Auz Engemann [01:12:00] Oh, yeah.

Ellee Duke [01:12:00] Every moment. Every moment. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:12:02] What's that like? Just to constantly have the camera on you.

Ellee Duke [01:12:05] It's. It's kind of weird, but I mean, I was excited, exciting, and I think too, there was elements of them trying to kind of twist, like, what's your story? You know, and, like, what. You know, what makes you interesting?

John Dehlin [01:12:18] Did you come with it. I'm sure you're coached to come with the story.

Ellee Duke [01:12:22] Yeah, definitely. I kind of was like, oh, I. You know, I quit volleyball to do music, which is just like, how can we spice it up? You know? Like, they were just like, has anyone died in your family after a death somewhere? You know, what's. Something bad that's happened in your life? So there was definitely quite a bit of, like, how do. How do we make you more interesting? And at the time, you know, it wasn't so much an artist show as it was just a singing show. Now it's much more, like, artist centered, I think, and, like, there's more original music, but at the time, it was very much just, like, more about being a singer. And so for me, like, I'm. I would say I'm a songwriter before I'm even a singer. And so that the. The. The deal I was offered was so much more exciting because it was all about writing songs and being an artist. And American Idol at the time was like, being a singer and trying to pull some story out of my ass that, like, wasn't true. And so I was just kind of like, okay, this clearly is the better move, because it just felt more me, you know?

John Dehlin [01:13:22] Do you feel like you did a good job in your. Like, were you nervous?

Ellee Duke [01:13:25] No, I killed it. I feel like I did a good job. Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:13:31] I'm thinking back to when I auditioned for the X Factor in London. Didn't get past the first round. Did not kill it.

Ellee Duke [01:13:36] Oh, their loss.

Samantha Shelley [01:13:39] Yeah, their loss.

John Dehlin [01:13:41] But, like, why weren't you super nervous? And why weren't you, like, you know,

Ellee Duke [01:13:46] I mean, at that point, like, I was 17. I'd been. I've been performing since I was 13, so for. Or. I mean, so for my whole life, like, I'd performed, I'd sang for people, and I think the adrenaline also kicked in, and you kind of feel like, you know, they really kind of beef. Beef it up for you. Like, this is your one shot. And, like, you know, like, Q Eminem, like, it just. Like, it just. They really kind of. There's a lot of energy and adrenaline. And so I think that I just kind of tapped into that and just tried to have fun. And also my vocal coach Dean was like, so he's like, just have fun. Like, I had a lot of good support, I think, for it, too. And so I was just. I just thought, you know, I'm just gonna wing it, and no looking back,

Samantha Shelley [01:14:28] you know, I have a question, because it sounds like you got a Lot of good validation from your community as you were becoming an artist. Did you ever, as a teenager, deal with. Not that, you know, like, feeling judged or insecure about.

Ellee Duke [01:14:43] Yeah, I definitely had friends that I think were. I had some issues with girlfriends, I think just because people knew me for something and I stood out in a way. And so I would have girls just not like me or just be really mean to me or kind of if I showed up at, like, a party or a hang, people would kind of be upset I was there because they felt like I was going to take the attention or something. And I don't feel like my personality is like. Do you think my personality is, like, intense and, like. Like, everyone look at me like, I'm. I'm not that way down to us. And so anyways, I just. I. I would have moments where I had some issues with friendships throughout the years, and so I would. I started to feel like I needed to kind of dumb myself down or, like, not be as excited about things that were happening for me because I didn't want my friends to feel. To feel bad or to feel like, oh, Ellie's just so cool doing all these things. And, you know, because my friends would. I had friends that would, like, kind of knock at me or kind of say things like. And when I'm. Even when I moved to Nashville, I had friends that were just kind of like, okay, well, whatever. You're too good for us now. And I'm just like. I never have thought that or acted that way, but it was just this weird. I don't know if it's, like, just jealousy or what, but it was. It sucked. And it was definitely, like, deep insecurities of almost, like, don't shine too bright because you're gonna, like, make other people not like you if you do that.

Samantha Shelley [01:16:16] Yeah. Yeah. That's definitely aligns with my experience being a teenage girl. There's so much, like, envy and.

Ellee Duke [01:16:22] Yeah, it's rough. It's really rough. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:16:26] And. And then you. You go to American Idol. You kill it. You get the golden ticket. And what does that mean exactly?

Ellee Duke [01:16:37] You go to Hollywood.

John Dehlin [01:16:38] The golden ticket means you're going to Hollywood.

Ellee Duke [01:16:41] You're going to.

John Dehlin [01:16:41] You're gonna be on the show, right?

Ellee Duke [01:16:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:16:43] Or not.

Ellee Duke [01:16:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:16:44] You're gonna be on the show, like, in the final. Like, they start out with a certain number, right?

Ellee Duke [01:16:47] Yeah, I think it's like the. The first. You know, I think it's like 50 or more people that make it, and then you get in the teams and you do all the Crazy stuff in Hollywood. So they. I. They were, like, trying to book my ticket for September, something to fly out there and do the next.

John Dehlin [01:17:03] And what year was this?

Ellee Duke [01:17:05] 20. This was 2014 or 15.

John Dehlin [01:17:10] Okay.

Ellee Duke [01:17:11] I think. Or 20. 2013 or 2014. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:17:15] So there's. And I just have to ask this because we don't always get people who, you know, audition for American Idol on Mormon stories, so I could. There's probably, what, tens of thousands of people who. This would be their dream just to get an audition.

Auz Engemann [01:17:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:17:32] And then, like, they would be outside of their realm of possibility that they would get the golden ticket. And you did both. You both auditioned, and you got the golden ticket, and then you turn it down. Like, was that hard?

Ellee Duke [01:17:48] Yeah, it was way hard. I did not know what to. I was, like, very. I was very. It was just weird timing because I didn't. I truly. I didn't think I was gonna make it because I don't feel like I'm this Kelly Clarkson singer with just this huge voice. Like, my power is my songwriting, and I wasn't able to show that. And so I was like, I have a good voice, but I'm not Kelly Clarkson. I'm not Carrie Underwood. So I truly didn't think I would make it. And even Dean Cailin, my vocal coach, like, the thing we were always trying to work on was me singing more powerfully and singing, you know, bigger notes and longer notes, because that was kind of my weakness as a singer. And so I'm just like, oh, they're not gonna want me on the show because, a, I'm not some powerhouse vocalist, and, B, I don't have some crazy story. So it was. I mean, I just. I didn't expect it, honestly. And then I didn't expect to get an offer to be signed. So it kind of just, like, I was just plugging myself in wherever I could to try to, like, give myself the opportunity to succeed somewhere. And I think, because I just relentlessly was, like, throwing myself into all this stuff. Like, it just. I don't know, call it partial luck and maybe just a good day. Like, who knows? If I would have sang a different song, I wouldn't have made it, you know? But it was tough. Like, I probably spent three months just, like, so conflicted. Like, do I do American Idol? What if I win? What if I. What if I could sing original music? What if I did an original song and it blew up, and then that changed my life? But what if I let go of this and then, like, it was. It was a Total, really hard couple months. And obviously that's kind of a good problem to have, but at the time, it was like, that was my life, and that was, like, the situation. And. And I remember making the phone call to the producer, and I just had this pit in my stomach. Like, I knew it was the right thing to do, but I also just felt bad because I knew that so many people would have given anything to have that ticket. And I literally said to them on the phone, I was like, can you guys, like, please give this to somebody else that, you know, you didn't have enough tickets left, but still, you know, would have had a shot, you know, and so, yeah, I hope they did. I don't know if they ever did, but I hope they did.

John Dehlin [01:20:00] So I guess. I guess all I can say just about the American Idol thing is, like, I can see on the one hand, you making a very logical, rational decision that's maybe best for your career and your ultimate ambitions. But there's this idea of, like, getting a break and, like, seizing it when you get the break. And, like, I could. I could imagine myself if I got a break, I'd be like, there's no way I'm turning anything down, because you never know if you're going to get another one. And this is one of the breaks in modern pop culture. So, like, I could just see myself, number one, being super tormented if I had other ambitions, but number two, being unable to resist the shot, wondering if I would then pass it up and then never get the shot again. Yeah, And I'm projecting all that on you, but that's. Do you relate to that, Samantha?

Samantha Shelley [01:20:52] Well, I was just gonna say it's not like. I mean, it. It was, like, already clear that you had another break that was kind of there. It's not like you were just giving up for nothing. Right.

John Dehlin [01:20:59] Because you'd already got the record offer.

Ellee Duke [01:21:01] Yeah, I already gotten that offer. And. And I think the reason why the offer was so, you know, it was Taylor Swift's label, and so I was. Obviously, she was like my icon, idol, all the things at the time. And so, yeah, for me to give that up almost felt like more of a loss than this chance that maybe I could win American Idol. But then there's, you know, 50 plus other people probably way better singers than me that I. I would not have beaten, honestly. So, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:21:35] Yeah, I guess. I guess I can also see, like. Well, just sounds like you made a smart decision. But I could also see myself. And again, I'm projecting, but I could see myself Wanting to not do it because. Because I'd be afraid of what if I failed. Right. Yeah, but it's not like that wasn't you either, but no.

Auz Engemann [01:21:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:22:00] So I'm just.

Samantha Shelley [01:22:00] Basically, because, I mean, you're going on American Idol hoping to get the result that was already, like, coming up.

Ellee Duke [01:22:06] The deal was the prize was like a record deal, essentially. Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:22:11] It's like when musicians do Eurovision, it's like you can't risk it for your career. You know, you got to go with the.

John Dehlin [01:22:18] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:22:18] Very bad reference.

John Dehlin [01:22:20] Well, I guess it speaks to a couple things. One, it's. It speaks to you having a real clear sense of what you wanted to do and what you loved and. And is it fair to say, some confidence that you felt like you. You were gonna make it and so you didn't need to jump at the first chance.

Ellee Duke [01:22:36] Yeah, definitely. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:22:39] Well, that's kind of badass, right? Yeah. Okay, so what was that like to turn it down? And. And again, that means that out of JLo, what, Harry Connick Jr. And Keith Urban, that at least two out of the three wanted you. Like, that's pretty cool. So then to, like, say no. Like, I don't know.

Record Deals, Songwriting, and Industry Pressures

Ellee Duke [01:23:02] It's really funny because I actually. I wrot song called Heart Condition that JLO actually cut. She was gonna release it. I don't. I don't know what's happening with it, but she cut it. And they were saying it was going to be the album track. They're the single track of her album. This was like, what, three or four years ago or three years ago?

Auz Engemann [01:23:21] It was less than that.

Ellee Duke [01:23:22] Yeah, three and a half years ago. So I have a song that has her voice on it, and it's a song I wrote. And so it's just funny because she said no for me being on the show, and then she cuts a song that I wrote.

John Dehlin [01:23:33] Did you get to hear your song?

Ellee Duke [01:23:35] Yeah, I have it in my email. Crazy. So it was like a full circle moment where I was like, ay,

Auz Engemann [01:23:46] you

John Dehlin [01:23:46] know, I love it. Not everyone gets to say that. J. Lo sang a song they wrote.

Auz Engemann [01:23:51] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [01:23:53] Pretty insane. I'm still pinching myself. She's like my girl crush forever.

John Dehlin [01:23:58] And this is not. I didn't know any of this stuff when I brought you on, so this is just fun to learn.

Auz Engemann [01:24:02] I know.

Ellee Duke [01:24:02] I'm enjoying you being like, what you're

John Dehlin [01:24:04] like, why did you even interview me? You don't know anything about me.

Samantha Shelley [01:24:07] I'm like, well, you were talking about the hook and, like, American Idol, and I was Like, American Idol's not the hook. Ellie Duke is the hook again. American Idol. It's one tiny face. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:24:19] We knew her when Samantha. We knew her when.

Samantha Shelley [01:24:21] Oh, my God. I thought about that. I'm like, I'm going to look back on this interview in, like, three years and be like, yeah,

John Dehlin [01:24:27] sensation. Yeah, you're kind of already there anyway, so. Okay, so you say. So you got the record deal before you said no to American Idol, Is that right?

Ellee Duke [01:24:38] I got the offer.

John Dehlin [01:24:39] Yeah, the offer. And can you. Is there anything you want to say about what it's like to get an offer? Like.

Ellee Duke [01:24:46] Oh, I mean, also.

Samantha Shelley [01:24:47] Also.

John Dehlin [01:24:47] Oh, sorry. I have to ask this question, too. Like, you hear about Celine Dion and the guy that was her manager. She ends up marrying him, and then you hear about, like, Alanis Morissette and whoever it was that she did her album with. She ends up singing about that abuse. And so I guess I'm wondering, like, so this guy that you mentioned that you were kind of working with in Nashville, if I'm your parent, I'm thinking, there's wolves out there. I'm not gonna want my daughter around these men. Some are gonna want to take advantage. Some are gonna have ill intentions. What. And I. And of course, I don't want you to share anything you're not comfortable sharing, but, like, yeah. Would a parent. Would it be legitimate for a parent to be worried about that? And what was it like to be navigating this person that you wanted to trust who seemed to really want to make you successful, but then you never know what the intentions are or if things go sour? I think.

Ellee Duke [01:25:41] I think the. The intention was kind of clear later on, which I can speak to later. But. But initially, I mean, he. Yeah, Will is. You know, he's a very good person. And, like, my mom was, like, with me because, I mean, you know, I'm 15, 16 years old, so my mom is on all these trips with me. She went to all the shows I played. Anytime I had, like, a session, like a songwriting session, she would either drop me off or she'd wait outside, or there'd usually be. If it was, you know, there'd usually be three people. And so my parents were really, like, protective in the way that they vetted people enough, and we kind of got to know him together for long enough, went to dinner. And then also, like, I met this girl, Heather Morgan, who was signed to Sony, and she became a good friend of mine, and she knew him. And so it was like, the more you kind of saw, oh, these People know this person and can kind of vet that. Like, they're not a shark. Like, maybe these people are. Was super helpful. So I kind of just like the outside validation that started to come of like, yes, he's legit, he's super. He's like, has a great reputation and he doesn't do this a lot. He doesn't just like, he's not someone that's just going around trying to sign 15 year old girls. Like, he'd never done this for someone before until he met me. So yeah, honestly, it was. It's just a ton of work. Like, I feel like sometimes people just hear, oh, you got signed. And it's like I literally spent, you know, three and a half years making trips to Nashville. I played in dive bars. Like, I played in just the most like, kind of raunchy places in Nashville.

John Dehlin [01:27:25] Like, literally underaged.

Ellee Duke [01:27:26] Yeah. I mean, if I had my mom with me, I could, but like, not like, not like strip clubs or anything like that, but just like, oh, bars. Just bars. And you know, there's like just, you know, all these like crazy people just like partying, having a good time. And I would sing. Yeah, I would just get up and sing like four songs. And like me and my mom literally just cold calling venues and being like, can she, can she perform? You know, if I'm with her. Well, how do we do it? Where do we come? Like, my mom and I literally just like DIY this shit. Like, we just called people. We were kind of just fearlessly like, what do we do? And calling. Just like, not really afraid to just kind of ask questions. And yeah, like, to this day I'm forever thankful to my mom for doing that because she just like rallied around me as like a parent. Just like, I believe in my kid and like, I have your back. And she was just like there every step of the way for that, you know?

John Dehlin [01:28:23] And how was that in your relationship with her? Like, was it grueling? Was it fun? Like, you hear about like when I interviewed Wayne Sermon of Imagine Dragons.

Ellee Duke [01:28:32] Yeah, you talk about just.

John Dehlin [01:28:34] Oh, you've met Wayne.

Ellee Duke [01:28:34] Yeah, I've worked with Wayne. Yeah, Love him.

John Dehlin [01:28:37] Great guy, right?

Ellee Duke [01:28:37] Fabulous.

John Dehlin [01:28:38] Yeah, he just talks about like schlepping around Vegas casinos.

Samantha Shelley [01:28:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:28:43] For years.

Ellee Duke [01:28:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:28:45] Playing crap gigs.

Ellee Duke [01:28:47] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:28:48] Like, is it fun or is it

Ellee Duke [01:28:49] grueling or is it grueling as. Oh, it's just like I played some gigs, like, in just really like, you know, kind of the middle of nowhere in California, in Utah. Even when I, when I went on tour with Leann Rimes. It was amazing. And that was, like, such an incredible opportunity. And those shows were great because I'm an opener and, like, she already has this built in audience. But when you're, like, trying to build your audience as an artist that, like, isn't just, like, nationally, globally known. Like, there was times where I would play shows and, you know, people in the audience that were drunk, if I was telling a story about a song, they'd be like, just get on with it. And, like, people would kind of heckle you. And there was, like, creepy guys that would try to talk to me or give me their card, or people would try to scout me for, like, weird modeling things. And, like, there's just gnarly people everywhere just trying to, like, take advantage of you at every moment. So the fact that I had my mom to, like, buffer that and then Will as well, who kind of became my mentor, like, you know, I just kind of found a couple people that could kind of help protect me from getting in, like, a bad situation. But it's. It's tough and it's hard, and you have to, like, really want it, you know? Like, you have to, like, really. You have to want to be a musician more than anything to, like, get through all this stuff and, like, the paying your dues, because that was one thing in Nashville when I first showed up there. It's like, even if you have all this raw talent, there's also this gatekeeping of, like, well, you need to prove that you're worth our time. You need to show us why we should pay attention to you. You need to come back in when you have this all tied up in a bow for us. Like, there's a lot of. Kind of, like, prove to us your worth, and then we'll give you the time of day. And so I was kind of just. I was rejected a lot. There was so many meetings that I took where people were just like, you're too young. You're not ready. Your voice isn't fully developed enough. Your songwriting needs work. Like, I got rejected for years by people I met with so many other people before Big Machine that were just like, nah, not into it. But I just kept going. And I basically just told my parents. I was like, I'm not going to college. So if y' all were gonna. If y' all were gonna help me out in any way with that, like, can we just try to get my music, like, somehow me in some situation where I can do this for a living, you know? And so my parents were all stars and they're just like, okay, let's figure it out, you know, And I'm super blessed in that extent of it, for sure.

John Dehlin [01:31:21] And how did your mom balance being a mom to two other kids when she's giving you so much attention? I'm asking you to spill tea on your family dynamic.

Ellee Duke [01:31:30] Yeah, no, it was hard. Like, and. And it's not like we were gone for, like, months at a time, but, like, she, you know, she'd come out, we'd go to Nashville for a week, and so we'd be gone for a week. So it wasn't like anything super crazy. And we, you know, we'd go out there every couple months for a week. And at that time, you know, my little brother is. He's like, 13, 14. And then my older brother, I think, was either about to go on a mission or on a mission at that point. And so it was doable for our situation. But, yeah, I think it was. It was hard because, like, I did get a lot of time with my mom that, like, my other siblings weren't getting, necessarily, but there really wasn't. Just to be honest, like, there really wasn't any huge issue with it. And my brothers have always been really supportive of me, too. And so I think they were just like, oh, this is. Yeah, just like, dope. Do your thing, you know? Get it, girl. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:32:26] And were there, like. I'm thinking back to the Beatles and their years in Germany where they're just playing for years.

Auz Engemann [01:32:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:32:33] Were there times you wanted to quit? Just give it. And if so, what was that like? And how did you just say, I'm not going to quit? Like, how do you. How do you develop? Like, I'm thinking of sales, right. And how hard it could be to sell, and you just want to quit. Like, how do you gather the fortitude to keep going when you want to quit?

Ellee Duke [01:32:51] You're discouraged at that time, I think, because my. Why was so ingrained in the church and this, like, mission to, like, you know, I have to push through all this stuff because I have to show God a. That I'm going to work hard enough to deserve it. And I also have to prove that I'm gonna stay, you know, because I had, like, when I moved to Nashville, I had so many opportunities to, like, to drink or to have sex with someone or hook up with someone or whatever. And I. Like, I never did because in my mind, I'm thinking if I do this, like, God is not gonna bless me to have this whole career. And. And it was like, I was Trying to do a trade. It was like, if I'm worthy and I do all the things you want me to, then you're gonna give me my dream, and I'll be this example for you, and we'll just be this team God, like, let's go. And so that was a big part of. I think what kept me fighting so hard was just because I. It was rooted in this thing that was so much bigger than myself, you know, so in that way, I'm very thankful for that, you know.

John Dehlin [01:33:53] So the Mormonism was helpful in that regard.

Ellee Duke [01:33:55] Yeah, for a time.

John Dehlin [01:33:57] And if there was a pie chart of, like, how much of it was you having just ambitions to be a star and how much of it was, you know, glory be to God and to the church, what was the pie chart?

Ellee Duke [01:34:08] I worked my ass off. I worked my ass off.

Samantha Shelley [01:34:12] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [01:34:13] So I do believe I was given a gift, but I also know the work that I put in, and I know the work that my parents and time that they put in and just, like, how much I pushed and pushed and pushed myself and. And put myself in so many situations to be rejected, to not get the deal, to then finally. Finally get the. The thing that I was, like, working for all those years, like, basically my entire life, you know, so.

John Dehlin [01:34:47] But. And. And what percentage of that was you wanting to glorify the church and God versus you just being ambitious and wanting?

Ellee Duke [01:34:55] I don't. I don't know if I could put a percentage. I mean, I think half. Like, I think that genuinely I was. I was just scared. If it wasn't rooted in that, then it wouldn't work.

John Dehlin [01:35:05] Okay.

Ellee Duke [01:35:05] And so I think that your secret

John Dehlin [01:35:07] sauce, he's like your secret weapon.

Ellee Duke [01:35:09] And I had that kind of chip of like. Well, I have. I have all these answers of, like, life and afterlife and all these things and the point of everything and the purpose of everything. And so I kind of just felt like I'm special because of that and because of that, it's all going to go the way I want it to.

Samantha Shelley [01:35:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:35:27] So it gave you confidence.

Ellee Duke [01:35:29] Yeah, big time.

John Dehlin [01:35:33] So, so far. So we're up to what age? 18. And Mormonism is just an unambiguous good in your life, basically. Yeah, yeah. And tons of positive things are happening. And your parents are LDs, and so they are committed to their kids and they're focused on their family. And so, like, just good, good, good. Mormonism. This is like one of those Mormon stories where, like, how could anything go wrong?

Ellee Duke [01:35:58] Yeah, right.

Samantha Shelley [01:35:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:36:01] Dun, dun, dun. Okay, one. One last Quick question. You hear about singer songwriters writing a lot of songs before they ever even have their first album?

Ellee Duke [01:36:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:36:19] Do you have a sense for how many songs you wrote by the age of 18? Did you write a lot?

Ellee Duke [01:36:24] Well over 400.

John Dehlin [01:36:27] What?

Ellee Duke [01:36:28] Yeah. Like three to 400 probably. I mean, I've been writing songs. I was five. So if you count that, I mean, that's like 13 years of songs, you know?

John Dehlin [01:36:39] Would you record each one? Would you write down each one?

Ellee Duke [01:36:42] I would. I would write them in notebooks. I'd write out all the lyrics, and, man, I'm trying to remember how I would record them because I didn't have a phone until I was, like, 15, and I couldn't record. I don't think I could record anything on it, so I think I would.

Auz Engemann [01:37:00] Those camcorders?

Ellee Duke [01:37:02] Yeah. Camcorder?

Auz Engemann [01:37:03] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [01:37:04] Yeah, my parents had a camcorder. So I would record. I would record some of the songs on that, and otherwise I just kind of write, like, which chords I was playing and which capo or which fret I had capoed on the guitar, what key it was in. And then I would just kind of try to remember it whenever I came back to it, and I usually could.

Auz Engemann [01:37:23] Yeah, you have a gift for that, too, remembering stuff you write.

Ellee Duke [01:37:27] Yeah, it's weird.

Samantha Shelley [01:37:28] I don't know. Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:37:31] And most of your songs were, like, Teenage Love. What were they about?

Ellee Duke [01:37:35] I wrote. Yeah. Like, I wrote. I had a song called Tippy Toes that was, like, about, like, falling for someone, and you're, like, right there about to fall for them. I wrote a lot about relationships. I wrote this song called June, about the month of June, because I just. That was, like, my favorite month. So I wrote a song about it. I wrote a song about my dog. I had a dog named Jack that I wrote a song about. Like, I think I was trying to, like, like, morph it with, like, Titanic and, like, Jack, like, on Titanic. And it was like these really, like, kind of indie, like, chords and. Oh, my gosh. I wish. Yeah, I probably still have it somewhere. But it was. It was very dramatic. Like, I was like, just all the, like, feelings and emotions at such a young age where you're just like, how are you feeling? All these things, like, what is going on with you? Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:30] In the spirit of Taylor Swift. What about boyfriends you broke up with that you're gonna burn down?

Ellee Duke [01:38:34] Oh, yeah. I definitely did like the Petty I'm gonn breakup song on my Instagram. And I know they're gonna see it for sure.

John Dehlin [01:38:41] You did that oh, yeah.

Auz Engemann [01:38:42] Okay.

Ellee Duke [01:38:43] I actually sent a couple songs I wrote to different guys that had, like, broke up. We'd broken up and they were annoying or whatever, and I just, like, sent him a song. Like, this is a summary, you know? So ridiculous.

John Dehlin [01:38:58] I love it.

Ellee Duke [01:38:59] Yeah, I love it.

John Dehlin [01:39:00] Okay, so, like, at your heart, you're a singer. Song, you're a songwriter first before singer. Is that fair to say?

Ellee Duke [01:39:06] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:39:07] Okay. All right. Okay. Well, I think it's probably time to jump to Oz and. And hear a little bit of Oz's story.

Auz Engemann [01:39:17] Sure.

John Dehlin [01:39:17] But, Samantha, anything else you want to ask before we jump to us?

Samantha Shelley [01:39:21] No.

John Dehlin [01:39:21] Okay.

Auz's Background and Family History

Ellee Duke [01:39:22] All right.

John Dehlin [01:39:24] Okay. Well, Oz, you've been waiting patiently.

Auz Engemann [01:39:26] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:39:27] We hit. We hit kind of her adult years, so let's just jump back in the time machine.

Samantha Shelley [01:39:32] Cool.

John Dehlin [01:39:32] You're actually older than Ellie, so when we go back, we're going to be going back even maybe to a little bit earlier than.

Auz Engemann [01:39:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:39:40] Where her story started. So where does your. What do you want to say about your Mormon story?

Auz Engemann [01:39:44] Oh, yeah. So my dad's side, we, you know, go all the way back to the pioneers. Have a long history with the LDS faith. My mom's side, she. Her parents, my grandparents converted when my grandma was pregnant with my mom,

Samantha Shelley [01:40:10] and

Auz Engemann [01:40:10] they were living in Northern California, and they converted and then lived their whole lives as part of the church. Right. All my mom's siblings and everything. I'm an only child. I was born in Los angeles in January. 91.

Ellee Duke [01:40:26] Kim Kardashians.

Auz Engemann [01:40:28] Oh, yeah.

Ellee Duke [01:40:30] What do you call it?

Auz Engemann [01:40:31] The person who helps you?

John Dehlin [01:40:33] Doula. Doula, like midwife or.

Auz Engemann [01:40:35] Yeah, something like that.

Ellee Duke [01:40:36] Kardashian's midwife?

Auz Engemann [01:40:37] No, the. The. The man who helped my mom with the whole process of birth. I don't know what that's called, but.

John Dehlin [01:40:44] Obgyn.

Auz Engemann [01:40:46] Yeah, yeah, yep.

Samantha Shelley [01:40:47] Wait, delivered you.

Auz Engemann [01:40:49] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:40:49] As well.

Auz Engemann [01:40:50] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:40:51] So because you were. Your parents were in the LA area by then.

Auz Engemann [01:40:54] Yeah. So just to give you a little bit of background on them, because I think it ties in to a lot of, I guess, my story. My dad. So my grandfather was the vice president of A R at Capitol Records for a really long time. He actually signed the Beach Boys and.

John Dehlin [01:41:14] What?

Auz Engemann [01:41:15] Yeah, yeah.

Ellee Duke [01:41:16] Carl Ingaman.

Auz Engemann [01:41:17] Carl Ingaman. Shout Out.

Ellee Duke [01:41:18] Oh, gee.

Auz Engemann [01:41:19] Yeah. So he would. Yes.

John Dehlin [01:41:21] Which label again?

Auz Engemann [01:41:22] Capital Records.

John Dehlin [01:41:24] Oh, wait, was he friends with, like, Stay Azevedo, like.

Auz Engemann [01:41:28] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:41:28] Way back in the day.

Auz Engemann [01:41:29] Yeah. So they. They started the Saturday's Warrior.

John Dehlin [01:41:33] So I've interviewed Lexi Azeveda for warmer stories. Oh, you're talking about he talks about. This is your grandpa.

Auz Engemann [01:41:38] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:41:38] He was a big deal.

Auz Engemann [01:41:40] He kind of was.

John Dehlin [01:41:41] And the King Singers, which is. Which is Lex's mom.

Ellee Duke [01:41:44] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:41:45] Is it the King.

Auz Engemann [01:41:46] The King Sisters.

John Dehlin [01:41:47] Sisters.

Auz Engemann [01:41:47] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:41:48] They were Mormon.

Auz Engemann [01:41:49] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:41:49] Talk about more Mormon celebrity singers. Like, so that's your grandpa. And that's. That's Hollywood kind of LA or what part of it.

Auz Engemann [01:41:58] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:41:58] So they.

Auz Engemann [01:41:59] They lived in Studio City.

John Dehlin [01:42:00] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [01:42:01] Big.

Auz Engemann [01:42:02] And, like, just huge in, like, the Mormon community out there. So my. My father grew up in Studio City, California. And, yeah, my grandpa was doing the music thing. Like, all of my. My dad and a lot of his siblings, you know, were, like, involved in music growing up. They would, like, sing on, you know, like, kids tracks with, like, bigger singers and stuff and. Yeah. Just fully involved in kind of, like, the creative, artistic world out there. The music business. And then my grandfather. Actually, it's funny you brought up the Osmonds because he was also Marie's manager for 30 years. So that's what originally brought my grandfather and the family out to Utah. They moved to Provo, as far as I remember, specifically to be around Marie and to help with the career and everything, so.

John Dehlin [01:42:57] So your grandpa managed the Osmonds?

Auz Engemann [01:42:59] He managed Marie.

John Dehlin [01:43:00] Marie.

Auz Engemann [01:43:01] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:43:01] For 30 years.

Auz Engemann [01:43:02] 30 years.

John Dehlin [01:43:03] That's big time. Yeah, that's big time. That's cool.

Auz Engemann [01:43:06] Yeah. Yeah. And so they moved to Provo, kind of like OG Provo, like, basically when it was just nothing out there. Right. Like, it wasn't developed. It was just like a bunch of farm fields and everything. And, you know, they've been here ever since,

John Dehlin [01:43:22] so.

Auz Engemann [01:43:24] And then as far as my mom goes, so. So my. Well, my father. His career was in. It was in the music industry. So he was like. He was a artist. He was the lead singer of a few different bands and stuff in the 80s. And he sang the theme song for Scarface, the movie. And, like, you're my dad.

Ellee Duke [01:43:43] Yeah, yeah.

Auz Engemann [01:43:44] So he was just, like, fully like Scarface.

John Dehlin [01:43:46] That's Al Pacino.

Auz Engemann [01:43:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:43:48] That's awesome. What kind of song? I don't know. The theme song for the Scarface, it's

Auz Engemann [01:43:53] called Push it to the Limit.

Ellee Duke [01:43:55] You've heard it.

Auz Engemann [01:43:56] Rick Ross even did, like, a remix of it called Push It. Like, it's just. And my dad's voice is on the Rick Ross song. It's super fun.

Samantha Shelley [01:44:03] It.

John Dehlin [01:44:03] That was. No, no.

Auz Engemann [01:44:04] Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's Push It. And then his. His. Like, my dad's vocals in the background saying, push it to the limit. It's just so funny.

John Dehlin [01:44:12] So what Types of bands were. Was your dad in?

Auz Engemann [01:44:15] It was like, rock, like rock bands. Like kind of pop rock. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:20] In the 80s.

Samantha Shelley [01:44:21] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:44:22] But any names of the bands that you remember?

Auz Engemann [01:44:24] Yeah, so one was called Device and one was called Animotion.

John Dehlin [01:44:27] An emotion.

Auz Engemann [01:44:28] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:44:29] I think I've heard of Animotion. Could I have heard of Animotion?

Auz Engemann [01:44:31] You could have, yeah. I think there's some movie called, like, I can't remember the name of it, but yeah, you know, they're. They're pretty successful. And he had a whole career doing that. And so your dad. My dad, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:43] Okay.

Auz Engemann [01:44:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:44] And is he. Is he mormoning the whole time?

Auz Engemann [01:44:47] Mormoning the whole time, yeah. Yep, Yep.

John Dehlin [01:44:49] So I can Google, like, in a motion. What song did I know from them?

Auz Engemann [01:44:53] Yeah, yeah. I wish I could remember the name of the song that was in that movie, but.

John Dehlin [01:44:57] Okay.

Auz Engemann [01:44:57] Movie, but obsession. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:45:01] My obsession, probably.

Auz Engemann [01:45:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:45:03] But this is not a woman who sings that.

Auz Engemann [01:45:04] So. So he was co. Co singer. So they. It was a man and a woman as well.

John Dehlin [01:45:09] So what do you want me to be? To make you sleep with me? You're my. That's. Is that the song?

Ellee Duke [01:45:16] I can't.

Auz Engemann [01:45:16] I honestly. You don't even know. I can't remember that one.

John Dehlin [01:45:18] So this is my. The soundtrack to my high school.

Auz Engemann [01:45:20] There you go. Yeah, it's before I was born, so no shame.

John Dehlin [01:45:26] I'm just totally joking.

Auz Engemann [01:45:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:45:28] All right. So that's your dad trying to make it as a rock pop artist in the 80s.

Auz Engemann [01:45:33] Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So. And then as far as my mom goes, so my mom grew up doing that from Provo. So he was in Studio City, and then he went on a mission to Peru. And while he was on his mission, that's when my grandpa and grandma moved to Utah.

John Dehlin [01:45:49] Okay.

Auz Engemann [01:45:49] So he came back. He left from Studio City and came back to. To Provo, which was a big change for him.

John Dehlin [01:45:56] So he would have gone to high school in the LA area.

Auz Engemann [01:45:58] Yeah, yeah, he did.

John Dehlin [01:45:59] Okay, so, okay, so you served. Your dad served a mission?

Auz Engemann [01:46:04] He did, yeah. Peru. Yeah, in the jungle. Just roughing it. So he lost, like, 50 pounds on his mission.

John Dehlin [01:46:13] So your dad's Paul.

Auz Engemann [01:46:14] Paul, Yep, that's my dad.

John Dehlin [01:46:15] Okay, so I'm. I'm reading the Wikipedia entry for an emotion, and. Yeah, sure. It is Paul Ingeman right there.

Auz Engemann [01:46:23] So you heard the songs?

John Dehlin [01:46:24] Yeah, at least. At least. At least a couple. Yeah. It's so funny.

Auz Engemann [01:46:28] Yeah. So, okay, and then. So as far as my mom goes. And this all ties directly into, like, you know, my story. And My upbringing and everything and how my parents raised me. But my mom grew up in Northern California, like super, super far northern, a place called Eureka, California. And kind of from, you know, very humble beginnings, my grandfather on my mom's side worked in, they owned like a butcher shop. And when my mom was 18 or just under 18, she moved to New York and became a model and an actress and lived in New York back and forth between New York and LA for like 20 years. And so, yeah, both of them just, you know, were very, I guess, involved in like those industries. Right. And so they didn't have, I guess like the, your standard like Mormon upbringing in like Utah or Idaho or something. Right. They kind of traveled a lot and they,

Ellee Duke [01:47:26] they didn't live here for like most of their lives.

Auz Engemann [01:47:28] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So and then, yeah, my, my, my mother actually ended up working with my dad's sisters who were in the, you know, movie industry, film and television. They like worked on, I think a few TV shows together or like a movie or something. And so because of that, my mom met my dad. I think, I think it was through them or like just through mutual friends. Right. My mom was traveling somewhere and she ended up in Utah and she went to one of my dad's shows at the Hill Air Force Base. And my dad is like four and a half years younger than my mom. So when she saw him it was just like, oh, he's just like some cute kid but. But never like thought anything of it. But my dad was just like googly eyed all over my mom. And then they met, you know, met up a few years. Oh, a crazy story actually is my grandpa growing up because my dad was a few years younger than my mom. My mom was already in her career when my dad was in high school and she did a commercial called Pearl Drops. Commercial. Do you remember that? Pearl Drops. It was like a teeth whitening.

John Dehlin [01:48:36] Yeah.

Auz Engemann [01:48:37] Oh, yeah, yeah. So my mom was like the face of that. And that commercial ran for years and years and years. But my dad and my grandpa saw that commercial on TV when my dad was in high school. And my grandpa said, he pointed at the girl and said, now Paul, this is the type of woman you need to marry.

Ellee Duke [01:48:52] No. Yeah.

Auz Engemann [01:48:53] And then they ended up marrying like, it's just.

John Dehlin [01:48:55] And she was lds.

Auz Engemann [01:48:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:48:57] And he didn't know it.

Auz Engemann [01:48:57] No.

John Dehlin [01:48:58] It's the Holy Ghost.

Auz Engemann [01:49:01] Right, right.

John Dehlin [01:49:02] What's that?

Auz Engemann [01:49:03] Samir?

Samantha Shelley [01:49:03] No, I was saying, so we didn't know anything about her when he said this is the type of guy she married.

Ellee Duke [01:49:06] No, she's like this gorgeous woman.

Auz Engemann [01:49:08] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:49:08] Amazing.

John Dehlin [01:49:09] Church is true. I'm going back, right? Yeah. Samantha, you going back?

Samantha Shelley [01:49:15] John, you make that joke every episode.

John Dehlin [01:49:20] So.

Auz Engemann [01:49:21] So yeah, then, yeah. Crazy. They just end up getting married and they are living in Los Angeles and Temple, L.A. temple. Los Angeles Temple.

John Dehlin [01:49:28] Yeah, it's an LA Temple marriage.

Auz Engemann [01:49:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:49:31] With like movies star, celebrity artists, people.

Auz Engemann [01:49:35] Yeah. Just out there living their dreams.

John Dehlin [01:49:37] And the. I'm sure the Osmonds and like all the stars are at the, at the wedding or the reception.

Auz Engemann [01:49:43] 100%.

John Dehlin [01:49:43] And you weren't born yet, so.

Auz Engemann [01:49:44] Not yet. So. So yeah, from there they're in California. My dad is, you know, doing the music thing. My mom was doing the acting and modeling thing.

John Dehlin [01:49:54] What's your mom's name?

Auz Engemann [01:49:55] Suzanne. Suzanne Barnes. Sue Ann Barnes. Ingerman.

Samantha Shelley [01:49:57] Yeah.

Auz Engemann [01:50:00] And then long story short, my dad had kind of like a really big music kind of deal fall through last minute where some people just kind of were dishonest about some things and it was just kind of like a rough time. And so they ended up moving in to Utah to live with my grandparents for a while. And I was actually born in California and then they moved to Utah when I was like two and we lived with my grandparents for a few years and then moved into a house in the River Bottoms in Provo when I was seven. So.

John Dehlin [01:50:31] And that's a nice place to live in Provo, right? River Bottoms.

Auz Engemann [01:50:34] Yeah, definitely. Yeah. So I honestly just had like a beautiful upbringing. Like I was an only child, so I didn't grow up with siblings. So I was always just very close to my parents. Still am. Like, just have always had a really great relationship with them. It was just like us, you know, and I looked up to them a lot and. Yeah, just, just had like. So I guess going forward from here, like, I didn't have. I mean, what's normal, right? Like, who says what normal is? That's relative. But I guess in my mind, like, I didn't have the normal like Mormon upbringing. Like my parents were a little bit more

Ellee Duke [01:51:15] chill.

Auz Engemann [01:51:15] Yeah, just chill. More like liberal minded, I guess. Just more like open minded about things. Not as like strict with the church. More like spirit of the law versus letter of the law.

Ellee Duke [01:51:25] Right.

Auz Engemann [01:51:26] So yeah, I mean we, they had strong, strong testimonies though. And I grew up with a very strong testimony of the church. We'd go to, you know, church every Sunday and. But like, you know, on the other side of like we, we would still like go out to eat on Sundays and. And it just wasn't as like, like following the rules. Yeah. Like it was vastly different.

Ellee Duke [01:51:51] Very different.

Auz Engemann [01:51:52] Very, very different.

John Dehlin [01:51:53] Yeah. So more liberal believing, but liberal relaxed Mormonism versus a more strict.

Auz Engemann [01:51:59] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:52:00] Orthodox Mormon.

Ellee Duke [01:52:00] Yeah.

Auz Engemann [01:52:01] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:52:01] Okay.

Auz Engemann [01:52:03] So, yeah, just like my whole life I just, I had a happy childhood. Everything was great. And I always like, you know, wanted to be baptized, wanted to go on a mission, wanted to be married in the temple.

John Dehlin [01:52:17] Let me ask, did your parents stay in the entertainment modeling kind of industries while you're growing up or did they branch out in other things?

Auz Engemann [01:52:28] Yeah, so when I was a young child, my mom was still a working actress. So she would, she would travel to New York or LA for jobs, commercial jobs or movie or TV jobs.

John Dehlin [01:52:40] So your mom's got an IMDb sort of thing and you see her credits.

Auz Engemann [01:52:43] Definitely. Yeah. And even in the Utah community, like she was very involved with a lot of the kind of Mormon film and television people out here as well. So

John Dehlin [01:52:56] I'm just, I'm geeking out. Like, I'm. What, what movies or TV shows or whatever.

Auz Engemann [01:53:00] Yeah, I mean, my mom was on like, who's the. The Boss? She was on Knight Rider. She was on. Yeah, just like really well established in like the commercial world as well.

John Dehlin [01:53:13] Yeah.

Auz Engemann [01:53:13] So that's just what she did for a long time. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:53:16] So, okay, so your mom is a, is a successful actress slash model. What was your dad doing?

Auz Engemann [01:53:23] Yeah, so during that time, you know, after, after his like the big kind of music deal fell through, that was literally supposed to be like millions of dollars. It was just a big hit like to them and the way that they saw their life going and they had to move to Utah and that was just a big shift for them. Right. So in the ward that we were going to in Provo, as like a little baby that I was, there was this couple in the ward who they became friends with and they would come over to our house and they'd say, oh, we love the way that you've decorated your house. Like, will you decorate ours? And so they decided to do it and they just kind of fell into interior design. So for a long time both my parents together had an interior design firm that they worked at and were super, super successful at for years and years and years and years in all over the US they would do interior design

John Dehlin [01:54:24] for kind of high end clients.

Auz Engemann [01:54:26] Yeah, I mean, probably the biggest, they were on the COVID of Architectural Digest because they did Larry King's house, who is actually my uncle. Yeah. So it's just like, it's just a weird, like crazy.

John Dehlin [01:54:44] So Larry King one Of his late wives.

Auz Engemann [01:54:47] Yeah. So his, his, his most recent wife, who he was with for over 20 years, is my aunt, my dad's sister.

John Dehlin [01:54:54] That's cool. Yeah.

Auz Engemann [01:54:56] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [01:54:56] So I, we actually got engaged in their backyard.

Auz Engemann [01:54:58] In their backyard in Los Angeles.

John Dehlin [01:55:01] In Provo.

Auz Engemann [01:55:02] In Los Angeles. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:55:03] So Beverly Hills and Shawna had a home in.

Ellee Duke [01:55:06] Sean.

John Dehlin [01:55:07] Sean.

Auz Engemann [01:55:07] Yeah, Beverly Hills and Utah as well. Yeah. So.

John Dehlin [01:55:12] So Larry King was a huge inspiration for me. Like, really, what would make me do 17 years of, like, interviewing people? Yeah, I grew up watching Larry King interview people.

Ellee Duke [01:55:22] No way.

John Dehlin [01:55:22] And I. Yeah, he was a really important influence. And I hate to say Charlie Rose, because he got me too. But Charlie Rose was another influencer. But Larry King was even Rush Limbaugh. But anyway, yeah, anyway, Larry King is a legend.

Auz Engemann [01:55:35] Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:55:37] So that he was married to your dad's sister.

Auz Engemann [01:55:40] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:55:41] That's cool. Yeah, he just passed away like. Like a couple years ago, right?

Auz Engemann [01:55:44] Yeah, less. Less than. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, something like that.

John Dehlin [01:55:48] Rest in peace, Larry.

Auz Engemann [01:55:49] Yeah, yeah, definitely.

John Dehlin [01:55:52] So, okay, so interior design, your parents got into that and doing really high end things. So you said Larry King's house.

Auz Engemann [01:55:59] Like, so the interior design work that they did for my uncle Larry was on the, the COVID of Architectural Digest. Yeah. So that was a big thing for them. And that, you know, obviously gave them

Ellee Duke [01:56:09] a lot of credibility.

Auz Engemann [01:56:11] Credibility. Yeah. So they did that for a really, really long time.

Samantha Shelley [01:56:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:56:16] And that's a bit of a switch going from entertainment to design. But I mean, they were successful and mean cool people and making a good living.

Ellee Duke [01:56:24] So they have amazing fashion. Like, they're just, they're so silent. How do you explain.

Auz Engemann [01:56:30] They're just very artistic and very. They just have good taste and good. Yeah, I don't know.

Ellee Duke [01:56:35] They like color coordinate all the time, and it's just so impressive, the outfits they put together and they're just, just. They're so cute.

Samantha Shelley [01:56:42] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [01:56:42] So they're just cool people.

Auz's Affluent Upbringing and High School Years

John Dehlin [01:56:44] Okay. Okay. So I imagine they're gone a lot. Like, are you raised by nannies?

Auz Engemann [01:56:50] Like, no. So, I mean, they weren't necessarily gone a lot. I mean, a lot. A lot of the work that they were doing was in Utah, but they always worked for themselves. Right. So I actually got to spend a lot of time with them because they, their schedule was just so flexible and they were fully autonomous. Right. So they just had full control over what they were doing and they would just take projects on when they came around or, you know, so, so, yeah, we spent a lot of. A lot of time together growing up. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:57:21] Okay, so what was, what was the Mormon aspect other than just being more relaxed?

Auz Engemann [01:57:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:57:27] How, you know, I guess Ellie had said that like Mormonism default. What was it defined everything.

Ellee Duke [01:57:34] Like it meant our world revolved around. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:57:37] Was it fair to say that your world also revived around Mormonism even though you were jet setting with the stars?

Auz Engemann [01:57:43] Yeah, I mean, I think it was definitely a, a very core, big part of our lives and of my life, but it was just more, I don't know, like, open minded, I guess. Like, my parents also traveled a lot throughout their lives and like me growing up, we traveled a ton. So I got to just like culturally see a lot of different types of people, how different people live, different religions, like. Yeah. So I was really, I feel very blessed and lucky in that sense that I was able to experience that at such a young age and just see so many different types of people and how they live their life. And I think that also influenced just how I see the world and that, you know, it's very easy to like, be in a bubble here in Utah. Right. It's just like this is all, you know, this is the whole culture of how everyone lives. So I think that contributed just to like, me having a little bit more like, laxed view about the church and like, not as, I mean, don't get me wrong, I still had my things where I, you know, wanted to do the right thing and wanted to feel like I was close to God and like living the commandments and stuff, but if I'd mess up. My parents were very, like, we were just, we just had a very open relationship and they, they, they were very open with me and we, like, communication was just a very, very important aspect of our lives. And so I always felt like I could talk to them about things and stuff like that.

John Dehlin [01:59:08] So tell me if I'm reading this right. So, like in your teen years, whereas Ellie was like, I'm the law of chastity. I'm not even gonna let a boy touch me. I'm gonna be, you know, like, super strict. It sounds like in your family, like, you know, they were teaching you to live the commandments and to be righteous, but there wasn't this level of strictness and that you probably weren't as, like, worried about making a mistake as Ellie would have been.

Auz Engemann [01:59:34] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:59:35] Is that right?

Auz Engemann [01:59:35] I mean, when we compare it to her, like, absolutely, absolutely. I mean, I still, I still dealt with that. Right. Just. That's just kind of a big part of the church is like, you know, if you mess up, you mess up and you gotta repent and do all these things. But it was. I think my parents just taught me more that like it's okay if that happens and it's. And you're still loved and God still loves you and it's not like gonna. Your life's not over. And it was less fear based, I guess.

John Dehlin [02:00:01] You're not chewed gum or a licked cupcake. Yeah.

Auz Engemann [02:00:03] Basically 100.

John Dehlin [02:00:04] You didn't believe that you would have been.

Auz Engemann [02:00:05] No, no, not at all. Not at all.

John Dehlin [02:00:08] And did that work for you?

Auz Engemann [02:00:10] Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah. I mean, I still had moments, you know, obviously where when I'd mess up and I would be super hard on myself and especially like being an only child. I think there was a lot of just like pressure, I guess on me. Like I'm the only kid and like all of my parents attention was on me and like I looked up to them and they were these very successful, like cool, interesting people. And so I wanted to be like that. And so I was very hard on myself too. And like some senses, you know.

Ellee Duke [02:00:47] Yeah.

Auz Engemann [02:00:47] I don't know.

John Dehlin [02:00:49] Was there like. I'm sure there's a ton of people that know the names. The Ingham name, I'm sure is. I'm sure if you go to like prominent Mormons or even church leaders, it's like, well, this is an important family connected to the Osmonds, like.

Auz Engemann [02:01:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:01:08] Did you feel a pressure to live up to the name, that sort of thing?

Auz Engemann [02:01:12] That's a really good question. And yes, I did for sure. And you're right, like the Ingamen name, like in. Particularly in Provo, it's like a lot of people just knew who we were.

Ellee Duke [02:01:24] Right.

Auz Engemann [02:01:25] My uncle even was like the quarterback of byu, Brett Ingaman for a while. My other uncle was quarterback up at the U.

John Dehlin [02:01:34] Is he an ingenu too?

Auz Engemann [02:01:35] Yeah. Ryan. Ryan Ingamen. Yeah. So just. Yeah. It's like the name is just kind of known and it's like. So I felt pressure that I had to kind of be something important or big, I think too. And that's kind of been a trip.

Samantha Shelley [02:01:53] Yeah.

Auz Engemann [02:01:53] Even recently, so.

John Dehlin [02:01:56] Yeah. Well, I mean that raises the stakes of an interview like this. Right, but what's that? I mean, that kind of raises the stakes of an interview like this. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ellee Duke [02:02:06] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:02:08] So do you want to talk about your high school years?

Auz Engemann [02:02:11] Yeah, like, absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:02:12] And let's talk about you. Like what? You can tell us your favorite primary songs or like.

Auz Engemann [02:02:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:02:17] Did your family do scripture study or family evening or did they kind of not. And.

Auz Engemann [02:02:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:02:21] And. And let's go into your adolescent years, too.

Auz Engemann [02:02:24] Sure. Yeah. So growing up as, like, a child, we weren't, like, super consistent with, like, family home evenings or scripture study or things like that. We would kind of do it in phases. Like, I think my parents would be motivated at certain times to, like, just feel like that was something important that we needed to do. And then, you know, we would just kind of, like, fizzle out and, like, not do it as much. But, like, regardless of any of that, like, we always just had a great relationship and felt close as a family and, like, loved each other a lot. And so I don't think that that was anything that, like, we just didn't really care about that stuff. You know what I mean? But we'd pray together. And don't get me wrong, the church was a big part of our lives, for sure. And it was a really big part of my life, too. But then I was so growing up and getting into my teenage years, I was always. Ah, man, how do I explain it? So I was kind of always the kid who, like, in my mind, I was like, oh, I'm never gonna. Like, I had super strong testimony. I always just wanted to be, like, diligent in the church and, like, go on a mission and, like, I said, get married in the temple and all these things. And in my early high school days, I. I struggled with, like, some depression and, like, was, like, in therapy and, like, was put on some antidepressants and things like that. I think I was just kind of, like, overly angsty. I don't really know, like, where that came from or what it was, but I think I always was. I always wanted to be, like, different, and I always wanted to be, like, an individual.

Ellee Duke [02:04:08] Right.

Auz Engemann [02:04:09] And I think also growing up as, like, an only child, I spent a lot of time by myself. And so I'd be in my head a lot, and I'd think a lot. And I think about life, and I think about God and, like, just, like, the existential questions of life. And I think I thought about those things as, like, a young child. I also spent a lot of time with grownups as a child, right? So I'd been. I'd have conversations with, like, these kind of older people who were more mature and more just, like, versed in, like, the world and how it works. And so that caused me to. That was just, like, a big part of who I was. Like, I was always very, like, deep, I guess, right. And so I think part of, like, that depth, like, maybe Contributed to like some of the depression and just like, I don't know, just. I mean, I don't think I was necessarily any different than anyone else. Like, I think when you're a teenager and you're kind of like trying to figure out your life and you're going through puberty, it's just like, it's just a lot, you know. And so like a. Kind of a big part of my whole story is I was always the kid who like never said I was going to do drugs, you know, that was. I was just like, oh my gosh, like, are you kidding? Like, I'll never ever do that. And then like I was in a group of friends. Like in high school I was. I mean, I feel stupid saying this, but like, I was like, popular and like, I had a lot of friends.

John Dehlin [02:05:24] What?

Auz Engemann [02:05:24] High school Temp view.

John Dehlin [02:05:25] Okay.

Auz Engemann [02:05:26] Tempe High school. Yeah, I had a lot of friends and I was well liked. And I just, I was friends with a lot of different people. Like I. I was very, very non judgmental. So I was friends with, you know, like the stoners and the skaters and like the sports people and just everyone. Like I. I was just friends with a, like everyone. And I just loved people and I loved just like learning about people. Right. So I wasn't very like, clicky. I was always kind of the kid who like, was just, you know, just friends with everyone. But like my core group of friends, like kind of got into drugs and stuff. Right. At least a portion of them. And so, you know, I would like worry about them and all these things.

John Dehlin [02:06:15] And let me ask like, you know, like someone that looks at Utah from an. Utah Mormonism, from an idealistic, naive lens is gonna say Mormonism, teen Mormons and drugs. Just those two things don't go together.

Auz Engemann [02:06:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:06:31] Yep. Would they be wrong?

Auz Engemann [02:06:33] No, not at all. Yeah, that's.

John Dehlin [02:06:34] And in Provo, like Provo, these three things don't go together. Mormon teens and Provo.

Auz Engemann [02:06:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:06:41] Right.

Auz Engemann [02:06:41] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:06:42] But they're wrong.

Auz Engemann [02:06:42] They're absolutely wrong.

Ellee Duke [02:06:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:06:44] Tell us how that works.

Auz Engemann [02:06:45] Well, it's way, it's way more prevalent, I think, than, than people realize. And I think a lot of that comes from like the, the strong belief against it because it causes kids, particularly me, to be curious. You know, it's like we're not supposed to do these things. But then it's like, well, what's it all about? Like, why am I not supposed to do it?

John Dehlin [02:07:08] You know, so the prohibition maybe even makes it more alluring or enticing.

Auz Engemann [02:07:14] Absolutely. Absolutely. I think so.

John Dehlin [02:07:16] Even in Provo.

Auz Engemann [02:07:17] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:18] Especially. You're saying especially.

Auz Engemann [02:07:19] I mean, people are just people. You know what I mean? Like, I think you'll find that anywhere.

John Dehlin [02:07:22] Yeah.

Auz Engemann [02:07:23] So. But, yeah, so it's like. It's this kind of, like, unknown, kind of like. Oh. Kind of thing that's like, oh, like, I'm not supposed to know about that. But then when your friends start doing it, it's just. It's like, around you, you know? And so, like, this one night, I went to, like, I said I was always that kid who was like, I'm never, never gonna do it. And I went to IHOP with, like, one of my friends one night, like, super late, and it was just me and him, and he was explaining what, like, mushrooms was like, right? And I was just like, I want to do it. And the next day I did it. First thing I ever did was, like, these psychedelic mushrooms. And

John Dehlin [02:08:06] this is before mushrooms have gotten super popular. So this would have been how many years ago?

Auz Engemann [02:08:10] So this was like, 15, 16 years ago. I was like, 15 or 16 years old.

Samantha Shelley [02:08:15] How was that?

Auz Engemann [02:08:17] It was a trip, as they say.

Samantha Shelley [02:08:20] Right.

John Dehlin [02:08:20] But how many grams you took?

Auz Engemann [02:08:22] You know, I don't. The first time, I don't.

John Dehlin [02:08:25] But it was a. It was a big.

Auz Engemann [02:08:27] It was probably like one and a half to two.

John Dehlin [02:08:30] Two grams, maybe.

Auz Engemann [02:08:31] Yeah. But I can't say for sure. Right. But it definitely took you some change things. Right. But anyway.

John Dehlin [02:08:39] What do you mean, change things? Like, was it, like, changing I.

Auz Engemann [02:08:43] So I can get into that, but I specifically mean, like, it changed.

John Dehlin [02:08:48] Yeah.

Auz Engemann [02:08:48] My reality. Right. And that was something obviously that I'd never experienced and was just kind of, like, crazy. Right. And so I did that a few times, and I kind of, like, got into, like, you know, cannabis. And it wasn't like, a huge, huge part of my life, but there were a few years there where I was just kind of doing things. I even got, like, caught by the police with marijuana and me and a friend, and I had to, like, go to court for it and all these things. And it was like, I just never really saw my, like, life going that way prior to that. Right. And it's not like I was addicted or, like, anything like that, but just I just had a bunch of friends who were just, like, messing around with it.

Ellee Duke [02:09:27] Well, it's a big deal here. I feel like just because there is this stigma around drugs in general and this, like, fear, and so even more then than now, I feel like it's just, like, a really big deal to get Caught?

Auz Engemann [02:09:41] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [02:09:41] You know.

Auz Engemann [02:09:41] Oh, for sure.

Samantha Shelley [02:09:42] Yeah.

Auz Engemann [02:09:43] My parents are not happy about that. So, anyway, so, yeah, just, like, through my experiences in my, like, mid to later teenage years, I would do these psychedelics or these different things. And, like, it was interesting because I found myself feeling. There were times where I, like, would feel very connected to God or, like, a higher power. And in my mind frame back then, it was God. Right. It was God and Jesus. And I would. I would feel like, how is it that I can do this and feel, like, more connected to God than even, like, prior times when I'm not doing this? And supposedly this is something that's bad. So it's just kind of weird, you know? But it was very conflicting because I still had a very strong testimony of the church. And I knew, like, at face value, these things were things that I wasn't supposed to be doing. And so I think I had a lot of, like, internal conflict with that. But at the same time, I still. I still was very forgiving of myself just because I had been taught and raised that way. Right. So I didn't think it was, like, something that was gonna damn me to hell or, like, any of these things. It was just like. Yeah, it just. It wasn't the biggest deal. But I think it also caused just some stress in my life. And, like, a lot of times I'd be like, think of my parents and, like, what they think of it, and it would just cause me to, like, get sad, you know? And just like, deep down I knew I shouldn't be doing it, but it was. And it's like, looking back now, it's like, whatever, you know? But just where my mindset was back then, it was something that I knew I shouldn't do. Right.

Substance Use, Depression, and Mission Service

John Dehlin [02:11:25] So you said a component of it was just peers doing the.

Samantha Shelley [02:11:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:11:30] Fun, exploration, even doing something a little bit dirty or naughty or whatever. Was some of it treating your depression, do you think? Or do you even. Have you even thought about that? Like, because sometimes drug use is just treating depression.

Auz Engemann [02:11:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:11:48] When you don't go to a physician or a psychologist and you don't get SSRIs or whatever. Yeah, it's just like, untreated.

Ellee Duke [02:11:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:11:56] Self. Self medicating some sort of anxiety or depression.

Auz Engemann [02:12:00] You know, it could. It could have been. Back then, I just saw it as like, I'm just having fun.

John Dehlin [02:12:05] Okay.

Auz Engemann [02:12:06] But my. My parents, you know, at times they'd, like when we'd have conflict about this or like, when I get caught. Right. Specifically when I got caught with marijuana, because they didn't really. They didn't know anything up until then, but they would say, like, why? Like, what's so wrong with your life? Or why. What have. You know, what have we done that's like, caused you to do this? And in my mind, I was just like, it has nothing to do with that. Like, it's just. I'm just, like, having fun with my friends. But. But maybe, maybe subconsciously or maybe internally there was something that I was dealing with and that was something that I was, like, going to. To treat those things. I'm not really sure. Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:12:45] Well, it sounds like you were quite introspective from a young age and thinking about those existential questions, so I could see you being drawn to.

Auz Engemann [02:12:52] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:12:52] Did you stay within that, like, soft drug category, like psychedelics and weed, if you want to?

John Dehlin [02:12:57] Sure, yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:12:58] You know.

Auz Engemann [02:12:58] No. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what. What do you consider a not soft drug?

Samantha Shelley [02:13:05] I guess something that there's, like, more of a danger with.

Auz Engemann [02:13:09] Yeah. I never really got into anything, you

Samantha Shelley [02:13:11] know, cocaine or anything like that.

Auz Engemann [02:13:13] Yeah. At that time, I had never really gotten into any of that. It was more just like weed and shrooms, you know?

Samantha Shelley [02:13:19] Yeah. Did you. Did you find it helpful, like, when you first did mushrooms? Like, did you have a positive experience the first time?

Auz Engemann [02:13:28] Honestly, I just, like, it was. I hardly remember it, just because it was so. Just, like, kind of crazy. But the next few times that I did it, it was. It was very positive and I felt connected to things and I felt like I learned more about myself. But then I did have one experience that was horrible. I just had, like, a horrible, horrible trip, you know, and I just got, like, super sick and I threw up. And then I started to be like. I just got super in my head about, like, I shouldn't be doing this, and, like, I'm a bad person. And like, like, why am I doing this? And, like, I'm better than this, you know? And, like, that was kind of like a very gnarly experience, you know? But. Yeah. Anyway, I don't really know where I was going or anything, but.

John Dehlin [02:14:14] So. So you would be experiencing some guilt for breaking the church's commandments, the word of wisdom, but also for causing your parents distress.

Auz Engemann [02:14:23] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:14:23] And for not living up to the Ingaman name, maybe.

Samantha Shelley [02:14:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:14:26] Right.

Auz Engemann [02:14:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:14:27] Ingaman.

Auz Engemann [02:14:28] Yeah. Yeah, yeah, definitely.

John Dehlin [02:14:30] And then do you have goals or, like, hobbies or pursuits parallel to this? What are you into?

Auz Engemann [02:14:37] What do you. Yeah, you know, so I started playing guitar when I was, like, 13 or 14. My parents put me in lessons. I Always grew up, like, not really knowing exactly what I wanted to do with my life. I still kind of struggle with that even, like, to this day. But, yeah, I was just like, like, generally like a pretty happy kid, pretty chill kid. Like, didn't have, like, a ton of worries, like, things were taken care of in my life. My parents gave me a lot, maybe sometimes a little too much, you know, but I really didn't have, like, a lot of worries or I was just kind of living my life. And I wasn't like, super, super goal oriented just because I didn't really, like, know what I wanted to do. And honestly, like, I hate to say it, and I feel kind of, like, dumb or, like, gross saying it, but just, like, things kind of, like, came easy to me and, like, my teachers liked me a lot and so, like, I could just kind of skate by and. Yeah, I don't really know, but I always knew, like, I always knew I wanted to go on a mission. Right. So even, like, when I was experimenting with these things, like, I knew at some point I needed to, like, stop doing it and clean up. Clean up my act, so to say. Right.

John Dehlin [02:15:57] And by the way, that's a huge percentage of Mormon kids experience with drugs or alcohol. Growing up secretly feel guilty. Certainly my siblings, many of my siblings, all of my siblings did at one point or another. And I'm sure, you know, your story is very common.

Auz Engemann [02:16:14] Yeah, yeah, I guess. I don't know. But so anyway, going forward from there,

John Dehlin [02:16:23] you know, like, did you do seminary?

Auz Engemann [02:16:27] Yeah, seminary.

John Dehlin [02:16:28] Were you into the doctrine and the theology and all that?

Auz Engemann [02:16:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:16:31] As a literal believer?

Auz Engemann [02:16:33] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:16:34] One true church and all that.

Auz Engemann [02:16:36] Absolutely. Absolutely. I believed all the doctrine was, like, core part of my beliefs. For sure.

John Dehlin [02:16:42] Yeah.

Auz Engemann [02:16:44] And then. Yeah. Like, graduating high school.

John Dehlin [02:16:51] Let me ask you this really quick. What's Provo culture? Mormon culture? Like, is there anything you want to say about that? Like, like, were you up on the. You were in the river bottoms, Right? So there's going to be a lot of money and a lot of prominent Mormons and Utah county and Provo is kind of special. We talked a little bit about Draper, but, like, it really. In Mormonism, it doesn't get more intense than Rexburg, Idaho, which Sam, we talked about in your interview a little bit. And freaking Provo, Utah. Like, those are two. That's ground zero Mormon orthodoxy. There's a really great episode with Donna Showalter. She was a relief study president in Provo. Super intense kind of Mormonism. Was it. Was it like that? And Kara. Kara also was raised in Provo. Kara Burrell. And it was really interesting in Kara's interview because she talked about how she had liberal young women's leaders that were not into like modesty, weirdness and were not into shaming, but were kind of intellectual progressives. And so I'm trying to get a sense for like the, the flavor of Mormon culture in your ward and stake and in your neighborhood. There's going to be affluence, there's going to be kind of notable names and then there's going to be some flavor of like strictness or lenience, leniency. Can you color that picture for us a little bit?

Auz Engemann [02:18:33] Yeah, I think it's definitely like, I mean, Provo is where BYU is and it's like, it's very like. I mean, at least in my mind, like when I think of Mormons or tell people that I'm Mormon, they always know Provo or Salt Lake or byu. Right. So it was definitely like kind of in my mind and. Well, and especially now looking back on it, it's like it's kind of the heart of like your average Mormon and unlike what someone thinks of when they think of Mormon. Right. But yeah, like, it was definitely strict. It was definitely. But, but, but I always felt like I didn't really feel part of that. Right. Like just because of my upbringing and my parents like being a little bit more open minded about things and it, and it, it wasn't like as much as of like keeping up with the Joneses, but like there were part. There were like, like, you know, bits and pieces of that. But at least in my world, in my life, like I always just felt not quite like in that, you know,

John Dehlin [02:19:40] this is gonna sound awful, but is, is it kind of. Because your parents had already arrived, so they weren't climbing socially. Does that make sense?

Auz Engemann [02:19:48] That's an interesting thought. I, I mean, I don't think that they would describe it that way and I don't necessarily think I describe it that way either. But I, I understand what you're saying and I think maybe, maybe, you know. Yeah, I don't know. That's an interesting.

John Dehlin [02:20:03] I mean, we're talking privilege here, right? We're talking about Mormon privilege. Not in a way that's condemnatory, but just exploratory.

Auz Engemann [02:20:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:20:11] I mean, if your parents are like designing Larry King's, you know, doing the interior design for Larry King's home in, you said, Hollywood or wherever, like.

Auz Engemann [02:20:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:20:23] And your grandpa's like hanging out with Marie and the Osmond, like there's Just a matter of privilege or having arrived where you don't have to try so hard. And it maybe it can be a little bit less relaxed than those who are climbing, trying to arrive.

Auz Engemann [02:20:37] That's interesting. It could be. Yeah. I've never thought about that, but that's. That's an interesting question.

John Dehlin [02:20:42] But it sounds like it saved you from a lot of the distressing dynamics of worrying about the appearance and worrying about too much, how decisions might impact.

Auz Engemann [02:20:54] I mean, in fact, I. I strive to be the opposite. I strive to be individualistic and to be my own person. And, like, I found a lot of, like, pride and value in. In trying to be that way, you know? But I think, like, even that might have tricked me into, like, some of the depression stuff where it's like, oh, I'm so different. I'm so, you know, like, angsty and whatever. Like, I don't know. But it's really interesting, actually, like, talking and, like, reflecting on these things, because it's not really ever something that I've done.

John Dehlin [02:21:21] You haven't talked to your parents in this way stuff necessarily?

Auz Engemann [02:21:24] No, no, we. We have, but not, like. Not in a way where I'm, like, really dissecting, like, my childhood and my life, like, when it's so directly tied to the church. It's just interesting.

John Dehlin [02:21:35] So with your parents being, like, your mom a noted actress and your dad and your mom noted interior designers, like, you're graduating from high school, I imagine I would feel like, well, I've got to do something. I've got to be something. Like, absolutely. Grandpa was something. My parents are both something. And I'm just a kid playing a guitar in Provo who's maybe goofed up some, you know, I mean, like, so you're graduating from high school. Like, how are you thinking about your future at that point?

Auz Engemann [02:22:05] Honestly, when I graduated from high school, it was just like, mission prep, okay?

Samantha Shelley [02:22:08] That.

Auz Engemann [02:22:09] That's all it was. I wasn't really focused on, like, what's gonna happen after the mission or what was gonna, like, what my career was gonna be or anything like that. It was just like, okay, time to buck up, and just time to, like, prepare for that. Right. Because it was. It was always something I wanted to do. So, yeah, between, like, when I graduated. So I. I graduated in, you know, May or June, and then the following January is when I went on my mission.

John Dehlin [02:22:35] Where'd you go?

Auz Engemann [02:22:36] To Orlando, Florida.

John Dehlin [02:22:38] So they didn't send you to where your dad went?

Auz Engemann [02:22:40] No, no, I wanted to learn Spanish, but, yeah, I just went Stateside English speaking and.

John Dehlin [02:22:50] Okay, wait a minute.

Auz Engemann [02:22:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:22:51] In the Book of War musical, Elder Price gets called to Orlando.

Auz Engemann [02:22:56] Orlando. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:22:57] Orlando. That's a. That's a song in the Book of War music.

Auz Engemann [02:23:01] It is.

John Dehlin [02:23:01] That's where you got called.

Auz Engemann [02:23:02] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:23:03] Do you remember. Did you see the Book of War musical?

Auz Engemann [02:23:04] I've seen it since my mission. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:23:06] Do you remember?

Auz Engemann [02:23:06] I do. Yep.

John Dehlin [02:23:07] Yep.

Auz Engemann [02:23:08] He goes to Orlando or he's called there. Right.

John Dehlin [02:23:10] But that was. That was a bummer. Wait, was that a. No. He was excited in the musical for getting called to Orlando, right?

Auz Engemann [02:23:16] Yeah. So we got called to Orlando and then, like, isn't it that he has to go to, like, Africa or something? Yeah. Instead. Right.

John Dehlin [02:23:22] Okay. Were you excited to go to Orlando?

Auz Engemann [02:23:25] Yeah, yeah. I was just like, you know, as like, someone who's going on a mission, you're always like, oh, man, I don't want to be called to, like, Idaho or, like, somewhere that is just like, kind of typical or something, like. Right.

John Dehlin [02:23:36] But Midwest or.

Auz Engemann [02:23:37] Yeah. And so I thought that Orlando was kind of like a good. I want. I wanted to leave the country, honestly. But Orlando was like, a great middle ground. I was just like, still really excited about it, you know?

John Dehlin [02:23:48] Yeah.

Auz Engemann [02:23:51] So, yeah, I go on my mission. I have the. I was a great missionary. I was very dedicated, had a very strong testimony. I felt like I. And like, the whole drug thing and like, and all that was kind of like a big part of my story where it's like, I did these things and I felt like because of those things, I could relate to people more and could, like to. To people's, like, struggles and people's problems and particularly if they had drug problems or if they were addicted to things. Like, I felt like I could relate to those people and, like, give them a hand up right away from those things. So. But yeah, I just had, like, the. Honestly, like, the. I don't. I don't know what word I'm looking for, but it's like, I was, you know, trainer, district leader, zone leader, assistant to the president, like, trained, like, three or four missionaries. Like, just the. I just loved my mission and I, like, thrived there. And, like, I. Even to this day, like, I don't look at it as anything that was negative. Like, it was just something that was a very powerful experience for me. And I feel like I learned a lot and, like, got outside of my comfort zone a lot. And like, regardless of, like, my belief system now, like, I. I still felt like I was helping people, and I felt like I was helping people to at least try to live a better life and to be better people. Right. So I. I loved my mission and I had a great experience.

John Dehlin [02:25:07] So you're AP That's a big deal.

Auz Engemann [02:25:09] Yeah, I guess.

John Dehlin [02:25:10] And. And I imagine, like, my brother, you know, enjoyed life before his mission and then kind of like, cleaned up and went on his mission and became AP And I know that for him, that was a really transformative thing to like, okay, I've got. I've made some mistakes, I've messed around, but the mission was like that moment where it's like, all right, I cleaned up and then I made apart, and now that means I'm. The Lord must be good with me now. And now the rest of my life is I'm going to be smooth sailing on to greatness. I mean, I don't know, is that how you felt or how did you feel?

Auz Engemann [02:25:56] Not necessarily like. Like that. Because I still, once again, like, going back to just how I was raised, like, I was just always taught that, like, we're gonna mess up and, like, and it's okay. Oh, you know, and it's like you just. You follow the things that you need to do to, like, the path of repentance. You follow that, but, like, it's okay and. And everything's gonna be fine. Right. But, like, going on a mission, like, it very. In a serious way, like, solidified my. My testimony and just like, my. Who I felt like I was. And I. And I felt like, oh, I had left all of that other stuff, like the drugs and stuff, like, behind. And it was. I didn't think it was gonna be smooth sailing, but it was like, I'm gonna come home and every day I'm gonna read my scriptures. I'm gonna wake up super early, and it's just like that enthusiasm that you have and that motivation to, like, continue the things that you learned on your mission.

Ellee Duke [02:26:51] Right.

Auz Engemann [02:26:52] And then I come home and just kind of quickly, like, didn't do those things, you know, like, wasn't. I woke up for the first few days early and was like, reading my scriptures, and then just kind of life happens and you're home and it's like this whole new thing, and you're excited to be back into, like, the normal world, and then you just kind of. I don't know, at least for me, just, I wasn't putting as much, like, effort into those things. I would still pray and do all that, but, like, all the things that when you're on your mission and you're taught, like, you need to continue to do these things. And the next step is getting right in the temple. And it's like, don't forget the things you learned on your mission. It's like, I didn't forget those things, but I just wasn't, like, doing all the things that a missionary does. Right. Because I was just back in, like, normal life and, like, excited to be there. So.

John Dehlin [02:27:42] So oftentimes people just go to byu. That's what you do. You go to byu, you get off your mission, you go to byu. What was your path?

Auz Engemann [02:27:49] Yeah, so I went to UVU for one semester, and then I was like, dude, screw this. Like, I was like, I don't.

John Dehlin [02:27:54] You didn't like school?

Auz Engemann [02:27:55] I just didn't like school. Yeah. I didn't feel like I needed to go to college to do something with my life. I don't know. And, like. And my dad always. My dad, like, went to BYU and. And nearly graduated. Like, I think he had, like, one semester left or something, and then just. I don't remember. For whatever reason, he just didn't finish. And I think he always regretted that. And so whenever I was, like, not wanting to go to college, like, he was always trying to encourage me to go. And I think just because he had always regretted it, he wanted me to not have those regrets.

Ellee Duke [02:28:31] Right.

Auz Engemann [02:28:31] But I don't know, it just, like, wasn't. I just didn't feel like it was something I needed to do or wanted to do. And my parents always worked for themselves, too, and it's like, they didn't use their. I mean, I didn't have a degree.

Ellee Duke [02:28:42] Right.

Auz Engemann [02:28:43] But he didn't, like, use what he learned in school necessarily for, like, what he did with his life. And so it just wasn't something I wanted to do, really. So I went for a semester, and then I withdrew. And then. Yeah, honestly, like, I. Saw something I forgot to mention was, like, in high school, I got addicted to Adderall, which was kind of a bitch in my life and caused me, like, a lot of just, like, pain and depression, honestly.

John Dehlin [02:29:14] Do you want to talk about that?

Ellee Duke [02:29:15] Sure.

John Dehlin [02:29:16] Some people don't even know. Like, I. It's an ADHD med. Right. It's kind of an amphetamine. Is that.

Auz Engemann [02:29:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:29:21] So maybe back us up and just take us through that, how that started and how that progressed.

Auz Engemann [02:29:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:29:27] If you're comfortable.

Auz Engemann [02:29:28] Sure. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:29:28] I imagine this will help a lot of people.

Auz Engemann [02:29:30] Yeah, sure. So I think. Oh, man. Yeah. The first time I took Adderall, it was, like, just. I felt like, on top of the world. And it's like, what it does is it releases dopamine, so it makes you feel like you're accomplishing all these things, even though, like, you're not necessarily doing anything. Right. It's just kind of like, cheap. Cheap dopamine. And so I just got, like, kind of sucked into that, and it's like, I felt like I needed to take that to, like, be who I was supposed to be, kind of. And, like, you feel like it's this, like, motivation and a pill kind of. Right. And so you take it, and you just, like, feel like you can do anything. Right. So it's a very, very addictive thing. And, like, it's. I want. Yeah, it just. And when you take it and take it and take it, it, like, it's releasing dopamine, and then you get to a point where you don't really have any dopamine left to, like, release, and so it causes you to, like, be really depressed. And so that.

John Dehlin [02:30:27] What age did you start?

Auz Engemann [02:30:32] 17.

John Dehlin [02:30:34] And was it when you took it? Was it prescribed by a doctor or just, like, friends had it the first

Auz Engemann [02:30:40] time I took it. No, it wasn't prescribed. But then eventually I got a prescription. But. But I tricked. I tricked myself into believing, like, oh, but, like, I need this. Like, this is something that is, like, helping me. Right. And so it's like, you justify it.

John Dehlin [02:30:51] You probably googled ADHD symptoms and you said, oh, that's me.

Auz Engemann [02:30:54] Yeah, 100%.

John Dehlin [02:30:55] You know, 100. Just skipping the doctor because.

Auz Engemann [02:30:58] Yeah, yeah, yeah, 100.

John Dehlin [02:31:00] And by the way, for those who don't know, Utah. Utah, I've heard, in some ways, leads the nation in prescription drug abuse.

Auz Engemann [02:31:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:31:10] It's a real problem here. And so we're. We're not just talking about a. A story.

Auz Engemann [02:31:14] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:31:15] This is a big deal. And in Utah County.

Auz Engemann [02:31:17] Yeah, it's a.

John Dehlin [02:31:17] You guys are both nodding.

Auz Engemann [02:31:19] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:31:19] Probably Sandy and Draper, too.

Auz Engemann [02:31:21] Yeah. I think. I think with kids in general, it's. It's just. It's. And especially now, it's a huge problem. But, yeah, like, so many people were taking it, like, and especially in college, too. Like, everyone takes hetero, honestly. But I hate that stuff because it just caused me so much pain, honestly.

John Dehlin [02:31:40] So you just started taking it and then you got a prescription?

Auz Engemann [02:31:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:31:44] And the doctor, was it pretty easy to get?

Auz Engemann [02:31:46] Yeah, super easy. Super easy.

John Dehlin [02:31:48] Just adhd.

Auz Engemann [02:31:49] Yeah. I just can't focus. Okay, so. So, yeah, and that was, like. That was the big thing that I had to, like, stop for my mission. Right. Because I was like, it Was it's something that's super addicting, and so it's hard to kind of stop. And, like, that was the big thing where I was like, this is really what I need to do to, like, clean up my act.

John Dehlin [02:32:06] Why'd you have to stop if you had a prescription?

Auz Engemann [02:32:09] Because I. Because I knew internally that I didn't like it. It wasn't something that was helping me. It was. And I. And I knew that I was. I was taking it too much, and I was just, like, the addiction, honestly, like, being pulled to it, and it just. I knew it wasn't good, but, like, we do these things in our minds where we trick ourselves into believing it's okay, and we justify and we justify it, but deep down, I'm like, this isn't good for me.

John Dehlin [02:32:33] So you knew that?

Auz Engemann [02:32:34] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:32:36] So you stopped before your mission?

Auz Engemann [02:32:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:32:39] Wow. Was that hard? Did you get help or just cold turkey?

Auz Engemann [02:32:44] Mostly cold turkey, yeah. Yeah. I was dating a girl at the time, too, who, like, you know, made me want to be a better person, too. And, like, I dated her up until I left on my mission, and she helped me a lot with that. Just. Just with, like, feeling like I could do that and, like, I should do that.

Ellee Duke [02:32:57] Right.

Auz Engemann [02:32:58] Like, women have a special way of making guys feel like they need to be better, I think. I mean, we can get into that later, too. But she. She was a big part of that for me as well, so.

John Dehlin [02:33:11] Okay.

Auz Engemann [02:33:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:33:12] So you wanted to mention that just because it's an important part of your story later.

Auz Engemann [02:33:15] Yeah. Yeah. So. So going forward, like, from my mission, I kind of, like, slipped back into that and, like, would justify it again and be like, okay, you know, like, I need this to focus. And, like, yeah, just. It just so easily, like, just slips back in. Right. And so, yeah, for the next few years, I'm just, like, trying to decide what I want to do with my life, and I'm, like, kind of bouncing all over the place. I move out to California to pursue, like, modeling and acting for a little bit. My mom helped me, like, get a modeling book together because of her experience with it. And I move out there and, like, was out there for, like, a year kind of pursuing that. And then a buddy of mine, like,

John Dehlin [02:33:56] did you have a sense for what type of acting you wanted to do? You have a role model? Kind of. Like, Ellie talked about Celine Dion.

Auz Engemann [02:34:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:34:03] Like, roles, or is it a TV show you were trying to get or a movie role?

Auz Engemann [02:34:07] Yeah, so. So just movies in general were always a really big part of My life, my parents life growing up, like, we loved watching movies that were, like, deep, and we love talking about them and discussing them and talking about how they applied to our lives and, like, what the meaning was and all that.

John Dehlin [02:34:19] Do me a favor.

Auz Engemann [02:34:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:34:21] Tell me three to five movies that you just really loved that meant a

Auz Engemann [02:34:25] lot to you growing up.

John Dehlin [02:34:26] Yeah. The types you would watch with your parents that were deep and that you talk about it. Like, most influence, three to five most influential movies.

Auz Engemann [02:34:36] Oh, wow, that's hard. Oh, I remember the first movie I cried in, which was Secondhand Lions.

John Dehlin [02:34:41] Yeah.

Auz Engemann [02:34:42] Did you ever see that? Yeah, yeah, that's one that comes to mind. My parents just always had, like. I'm trying to think of, like, specific movies, but my parents just had, like, interesting taste and, like. Like deeper things and so. And. And I really valued that as a kid. And like, even looking back now, like, having these deep conversations with. With my parents and talking about life and talking about struggle and pain and, like, just. Just what it's like to be a human, you know? So I feel very grateful for that.

Ellee Duke [02:35:12] I'm.

Auz Engemann [02:35:13] I'm trying to think, did you have

John Dehlin [02:35:13] favorite actors as a teen growing up, like, Matt Damon or.

Auz Engemann [02:35:17] I mean, I love Brad Pitt. I loved Edward Norton. I loved, like, Philip Seymour Hoffman.

John Dehlin [02:35:25] Yeah. Philip Seymour Hoffman's amazing.

Auz Engemann [02:35:27] Yeah. You know, rest in Peace. But. Yeah. And. And it's funny now because I'm in film and that's what I want to do. And, like, I finally feel like I've kind of decided, like, my career path, but it took me a super, super long time to get there. But I think once I was, like, looking back on my life and looking back as a child and, like, how important movies were for me and for my parents and, like, just how big of a part of our lives it was. Like, it all is, like, kind of starting to make sense a little bit more now. Right.

John Dehlin [02:35:56] So Almost Famous, was that one of the movies you saw and loved? No, that's.

Auz Engemann [02:36:01] I don't know if I. I don't know if I've seen that one.

Ellee Duke [02:36:04] Hudson in that.

Auz Engemann [02:36:04] The Prophet. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:36:05] Kate Hudson's Almost Famous. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You like that one?

Ellee Duke [02:36:09] I like that one.

John Dehlin [02:36:10] That's a musician one. Okay.

Ellee Duke [02:36:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:36:12] I was like, I've seen that, but the Prophet. Yeah, you did see the Philcy. Okay. And then, like, did you ever see River Runs through it? With. With Brad Pitt?

Auz Engemann [02:36:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:36:25] 100. Okay.

Ellee Duke [02:36:26] Yeah.

Auz Engemann [02:36:26] And, like, I mean, I saw Fight Club and, like, Edward Norton. I was just like, dude, Edward Norton.

John Dehlin [02:36:30] So Fight Club. Oh, yeah, that's a deep.

Auz Engemann [02:36:32] I loved.

John Dehlin [02:36:34] That's a deep book.

Auz Engemann [02:36:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:36:35] And a deep movie.

Auz Engemann [02:36:36] The Departed was also a big one. Martin Scorsese.

John Dehlin [02:36:38] Oh, okay.

Auz Engemann [02:36:39] Right. Just kind of like the crime, like gangster movie and.

John Dehlin [02:36:41] Huh.

Auz Engemann [02:36:43] Anyway.

John Dehlin [02:36:44] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's a, That's a non typical Mormon upbringing in many ways because it's more liberal, it's less shame based, it's less harsh, but it's more artsy, it's more sophisticated. It's obviously kind of affluent and connected, but you're an only child.

Auz Engemann [02:37:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:37:04] Like, and you're not beating yourself up all the time and you're able to experiment and yeah. You don't, you know, you shouldn't be doing it, but you're also not. Got hung up on a cross of guilt and shame.

Auz Engemann [02:37:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:37:16] That's a non traditional Mormon upbringing. But it's. I'm glad we're, you know, we're. We're having that story told.

Auz Engemann [02:37:21] Yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [02:37:22] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Auz Engemann [02:37:25] So, yeah, going forward, I guess, like, I just was just kind of bouncing all over the place. What I wanted to do. I lived out in Europe for a few months with a friend. Just kind of like went to like seven different countries, just kind of roughing it out there, which was a great experience. From there, I moved to Hawaii and went to byu. Hawaii for a couple of semesters.

John Dehlin [02:37:43] And school again.

Auz Engemann [02:37:44] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:37:45] Maybe I'll figure it out there.

Auz Engemann [02:37:46] Exactly. I was in Europe and I was like, man, like, you know, I'm about to go back to the States and like, what do I want to do? It's like, maybe I'll. I was reading My Patriarchal Blessing actually and was talking about school and I was like, you know, maybe I'll try that school thing again. It's like, if I'm gonna go, like, why not byu, Hawaii, you know, why not go out to Hawaii to do it? So I went out there for a little bit and like, relearned pretty quickly like, I don't want to do this. Why. Why did I do this? You know?

John Dehlin [02:38:11] School isn't for you.

Auz Engemann [02:38:13] Yeah. Yeah. And so from there, I, I ended up moving back out to California and. And throughout this whole time, like, I'm. I'm still kind of like experimenting with different, like, drugs and stuff. And it's not like a huge, huge part of my life, but it's like here and there and the friends I'm hanging out with and out in California, it's like a different crowd. But throughout this whole time, like, I'm. I'm still like, struggling with Adderall, and I go through these cycles where I'd, like, I kind of get addicted, and then I would. I would have this come to Jesus moment and just, like, go through this depression and, like, you know, pray and be like, oh, like, you know, like, help me with this. And then I'd dump all my Adderall down the toilet and, like, be good for a while. And then I'd just justify it again and slowly get back into it and just. It just ran in these cycles, and it was just, like, pretty bad, honestly. Like, it just. Like I said, it just caused me, like, a lot of strife. Right. So now I'm.

Addiction, Recovery, and Meeting Ellee

John Dehlin [02:39:13] Let me ask. Did your parents know about the Adderall addiction?

Auz Engemann [02:39:18] I. They knew that I was taking it. I don't ever know.

John Dehlin [02:39:22] You were struggling to get off it?

Auz Engemann [02:39:25] I think they did, but I don't think they necessarily knew, like, to the extent that it was, like, kind of a. Yeah. Just kind of like a. A problem for me. And I think because I was ashamed, like, I didn't want them to know.

Ellee Duke [02:39:41] You told me about the time your. It was your birthday and your mom came out.

Auz Engemann [02:39:45] Oh, yeah.

Ellee Duke [02:39:47] Or something.

Auz Engemann [02:39:48] Yeah, my mom came out for my birthday, and I had taken some Adderall, and it just, like, messed me up. It just made me feel like the worst person because I felt bad and she didn't, like.

Ellee Duke [02:39:58] No.

Auz Engemann [02:39:58] No.

John Dehlin [02:39:58] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:39:59] No. Would you take more than you prescribed?

Auz Engemann [02:40:02] Oh, yeah, way more. But I did have, like, quite a high prescription.

John Dehlin [02:40:10] But I appreciate you talking about this, because this is, you know, it's. It's one of those things that would cause people maybe some shame or some fear to talk about this publicly. But if we don't talk about it.

Auz Engemann [02:40:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:40:20] If you don't name it, you can't tame it.

Samantha Shelley [02:40:22] Yeah.

Auz Engemann [02:40:22] I mean, for sure.

Ellee Duke [02:40:24] I like that.

Auz Engemann [02:40:24] Yeah. So I just kind of had these, like, demons, like, just. And it's all internal. It's all, like. Yeah. Just. You just, like, beat yourself up a lot.

Ellee Duke [02:40:35] Just a shame cycle.

Samantha Shelley [02:40:37] Yeah.

Auz Engemann [02:40:37] Like, it kind of makes you emotional, like, just thinking about it. It's pretty hard, you know, and you just feel like you're, like, not enough. Like, you can't be. Who you're supposed to be without it. It's like. It's bad. Yeah, it's bad. So, like, if anyone's out there, like, struggling with that, like, hit me up, you know? Or, like. I don't know. Just. If you don't need it and you're gonna try to take it, don't because it can lead to a very dark place. So I wasn't expecting to get emotional, but yeah, and I think I'm also emotional about it because the way that I met Ellie was. And keep in mind, like, this whole time I'm going to church and I'm like. And there's that conflict too, of, like, I know I'm not supposed to be doing these things, but, like, I still have this testimony and I'm just struggling with it. And so I was. And it was like each time that I go through these cycles, like, it would get worse and worse and worse and, like, I would get deeper into it. And finally I was just like, I'm so sick of this. Like, I'm so sick of doing this. Like, I'm not living up to my potential. And like, so I've really had like, a very, like, serious chat with like, God and just myself. And it's like, what am I doing? Like, what do I want to do? Like, I can either keep doing this or, like, change. Right. And so I really, like, made a very strong commitment to myself to stop. And like, literally right after that was when I met Ellie. And I felt like that was something that, like when I really firmly made that decision and it was something that, like, I knew I wasn't going to do anymore. I was, it was like, okay, now I'm ready to, like, move on and like, create a new life. And I have.

John Dehlin [02:42:48] So you're, you're saying you've been sober since meeting Ellie? For the most part, yep.

Auz Engemann [02:42:54] So January of 2017, I stopped and I met her February 3rd.

John Dehlin [02:43:01] So you're five years sober? Yeah, in that regard,

Auz Engemann [02:43:06] yeah. And it's interesting, even hearing you say, like, sober, it's like, I never even thought of it that way, but it is, it's, it's what it is. Like, I, I, I had an addiction to it. So I was not expecting to, like, get into all of this, but it's like, yeah, it's good, babe.

John Dehlin [02:43:28] Well, first of all, that's hard stuff. Yeah, that's hard to break addiction. We had, we had Austin Archer. He's a, he's kind of a semi famous tick tocker who grew up in, went to Brighton High School, grew up in kind of Sandy area. He got addicted to alcohol and he had to go to Alcoholics Anonymous. We'll add that to the show notes as well. But it's a good episode because it just talks about how hard it is when you're addicted. It just, yeah, it's one of the hardest things in the world is to break an addiction. So, I mean, I'm really grateful, number one, that you were able to get sober, number two, that you're willing to share it. That's a huge deal.

Auz Engemann [02:44:06] Yeah. Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:44:07] Yeah. Congratulations.

Auz Engemann [02:44:08] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:44:09] Yeah. And you didn't go to AA or any of that kind of stuff. You just. Yeah. Yeah. So another thing that's interesting. Just saying, I don't know if you feel the same way, but, like, what's a little bit unique about your story is that when kids. When Mormon kids goof up, a lot of times it's like parental shame or ward shame. That's like the. The voice in their head. Yeah, but because you were raised with kind of liberal, progressive parents that were like, oh, the atonement and forgiveness, and it's all self. Your. Your shame was all kind of self. Feels like it was more self driven. Does that make sense?

Auz Engemann [02:44:48] Yeah, it was both.

John Dehlin [02:44:50] More external.

Auz Engemann [02:44:50] It was both. But it. But I mean, when I say external, like, I'm thinking, like, God and, like, my relationship with God. And I. Like I said, I always felt like it was something I shouldn't do, but you're absolutely right. Like, it was a lot of, like, internal and just, like, my own kind of shame that I was putting on myself.

John Dehlin [02:45:06] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And what age were you when you guys met?

Ellee Duke [02:45:13] I was 21.

Auz Engemann [02:45:14] I was 26.

John Dehlin [02:45:16] You were 26.

Auz Engemann [02:45:17] Right.

John Dehlin [02:45:18] Before we jump back to Ellie, I'll just say one last thing. One of the themes of your story is privilege and affluence. Because I'm guessing that, like. Like, when I'm thinking about me, like, by the time I'm a senior, my parents had been divorced, my dad was bankrupt. Like, I've got a go to college and get good grades and figure out a great career because my parents are broke. And if I don't make it, you know, I'm not making it. So, like, that was a real motivator for me. It's different for my kids, and it was probably different for you because my kids know we're going to, you know, we. We're not wealthy, but, like, you know, we're doing. We're solidly up middle to upper middle class. So, like, my kids know if they get in a rut, we're gonna help them, and that's a different upbringing. And it's like we're gonna say, cry crocodile tears. Oh, it must been so hard to have grown up an affluent Mormon family. But, like, I almost feel like I would have chosen my upbringing over my kids. Because, like, it would have been harder to know there was that support there and that cushion there. That would have been harder because then I don't think I would have felt as hungry or as motivated. Whereas if, number one, my parents had already been successful, that would have been its own pressure, because it's like, how do I live up to that? But then also knowing that they're going to support you no matter what might take. Not. Not out of any lack of character, but it's just reality. It takes away. It could take away some of that fire in the belly or that drive or even that focus of. For me, it was desperation. It's like, I got to pick a major. I got to get straight A's. I got to keep my scholarship. Okay. Now I have no money. I'm married. I've got kids on the way. I got to go make a living. If you don't have that kind of back against the wall stuff, if you've got more leeway or flexibility, then you're not forced to, like, figure it out sooner. And I. In some ways, that would be harder. And I'm just wondering if that resonates with you or if I'm just.

Auz Engemann [02:47:31] No, I definitely. It definitely does. And. And I'm actually going through just, like, some stuff right now where I'm just, like, thinking back on my childhood and, like, who I am and who I want to be. And I think you're absolutely right. Like, I. I was given a lot, and. And I don't discredit my parents. I mean. I mean, I don't, like.

John Dehlin [02:47:47] Right.

Auz Engemann [02:47:48] Put down my parents for that at all. Like, they're just, like. They gave me a great life, and they worked super hard for. For what? For where they got into their life. Right. But, like, yeah, things did just kind of come a little bit easier for me. And. And to this day, I, Like, I'm. Like I said, right now I'm kind of going through this thing where I'm trying to just, like, learn more about myself and get better and, like, kind of quote unquote, fix. I don't think there's anything wrong with me, but I just. I'm, like, kind of taking a hard look at my life, and, like, I want more, and I need to work harder and I need to be more, because I know I can be right. But these, like, the. The ease of life, I think, like, was a little bit built into me just as a child and, like, the. Just what you're saying. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:48:36] Just to summarize, like, I've Because I have four kids and they're adults now. And I think a lot that, like, having a harder upbringing sometimes is an advantage, and having an easier or softer upbringing is sometimes a disadvantage. And it's real because we talk about privilege and money and wealth and all that, and no one's gonna cry crocodile tears again. But I, I, I think it. Affluence is hard on children. I think it just is.

Samantha Shelley [02:49:08] I don't think that reveals something kind of dysfunctional about the system that, like, so often in capitalism, scarcity and fear are what's driving people's motivation and productivity. And I see it as a good thing that you didn't have to grow up with that. But then you're still left to, like, live in this system that is, like, driven by that and that people, like, really value this, like, excessive achievement and productivity when, like, what's wrong with just being stable and, you know, kind of just like, feeling out what you're passionate about? I feel like we just. I could imagine for you, it would be so much easier to get in your head about it all because you feel like you have to do these big things.

Auz Engemann [02:49:41] Exactly.

Samantha Shelley [02:49:42] Instead of just being able to sort of, like, slowly feel out what calls to you.

Auz Engemann [02:49:45] Yeah, you are spot on. You're spot on. Yeah, that's exactly it. And like, at the end of the day, it's just, we all just are given the cards that we're given. Right. And it's like, there's nothing wrong with it. There's nothing right with it. It just is what it is. And it's like we just, no matter what our situation, we're just born into this world and we just have to figure out how to live and how to thrive. And it's like, this is just the cars that I was dealt, and so I'm just dealing with it, you know?

John Dehlin [02:50:14] Yeah, well, I'm reading, I'm reading. Margi and I are, as part of a book club, we're reading a book called the Comfort Crisis. And it, it just talks about how so many indicators, depression, anxiety, death by suicide, they're off the charts in 2020 at the, the time of the greatest affluence of the history of civilization. And you just look at, like, death by suicide in developing countries. Even today, it's nowhere near where it is in places like Utah.

Auz Engemann [02:50:54] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:50:55] And Utah is amongst the leading states in the nation for death by suicide.

Samantha Shelley [02:51:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:51:01] I don't think there's any maybe better indicator of how hard things are on a teen or young adult than Death by suicide. Because, I mean, when you're driven to that point, you know, it's awful. It doesn't matter how much money you have if you want to end your life, it's awful.

Ellee Duke [02:51:17] Yeah, yeah. Money. Yeah. Money won't fix that.

John Dehlin [02:51:20] It won't. But it. But my point is it might make it harder.

Ellee Duke [02:51:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:51:23] There's this weird thing where the more comfortable we're raised, the more privilege and opportunity and sometimes affluence that we have, the harder it makes it for us.

Samantha Shelley [02:51:37] But then I feel like even if you grow up in, like, a scarce environment, you may achieve, like, the, the wealth and security you didn't have, and then you still have to reckon with the fact that it won't make you happy. So it's kind of like, you know, people that have, like, become famous or are wealthy, like, they have to. Yeah, you have to reckon with the fact that that's not going to be the thing either. But for so many people, that's what keeps you pushing. You're like, when this happens, they're not, you know, it gives you like a.

Ellee Duke [02:52:04] And then once you get it, you're like, okay, what's the next thing I can get and the more money and the next thing. Right.

Samantha Shelley [02:52:10] It's just like, to see we're not taught to seek out, like, a healthy reason for, you know, like, our society's views on, like, meaning and purpose are, like, quite distorted. And so, so many. So much of the time it's like we're chasing, like, fame, wealth, and, and it's. It's not really about those things, but those things can get you out of bed in the morning, you know?

Ellee Duke [02:52:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:52:30] Yeah. And my point isn't that, like, it's. It's good to be overly driven, fearful, capitalistic, either. It's all. It's all, you know, as Buddhism would say, they're suffering no matter what.

Samantha Shelley [02:52:43] Right?

John Dehlin [02:52:44] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:52:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:52:44] They're suffering wherever you go.

Auz Engemann [02:52:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:52:46] But I do, you know, when I look at my own children and a lot of other people's, like, there's a real. Well, two things. There's a real mental health crisis right now happening in the United States, and it's happening in spades in Utah with, With. With teens, but really with young adults.

Auz Engemann [02:53:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:53:04] And we've already mentioned it. The prescription drug abuse rates in Utah and the death by suicide rates in Utah are really off the charts. And it's. It's gotta be at least part. Some of these things we're talking about. And that's why I'm Taking the time to kind of like. Like at least explored a little bit.

Auz Engemann [02:53:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:53:21] Because why is Utah leading the nation in. In prescription drug abuse? Right. So we're. We're going there a little bit, I guess. That's all. Any, Any other reflections, like, did you see any of this in. Out in Sandy Draper growing up?

Family Struggles With Substances and Church Teachings on Sex

Ellee Duke [02:53:38] Ellie? My. Yeah, my little brother, like, at a younger age, I think he was about 14 or 15, kind of similar. Like, had a friend group that just started experimenting with stuff. And he also had some depression and I think part. Part of it was also trying to deal with that. And he got into weed and, you know, just some other things. And he went to, like, rehab for a period of time, I think, too. Like, my parents didn't know anything about it, and so they were just. Just trying to protect him and trying to help him, and they're reading all, like, the worst things about it, and so they're just, you know, thinking that they're helping. And I think that he. He left the church like, shortly after. He was like, 16 or 17, I think, and it was tough. Yeah, he, like, I think he. He moved out at like, one point and then he came back and my. Yeah, it was just hard for my parents to have a kid that was just like, I'm not going to go to church. I'm not going to do these things, because none of us had ever done that, you know, and so that was kind of the first one of us, I guess, to like, put a flag in the grounds in a different way somewhere else. And yeah, he's. He's just. He's the. One of the best people I know. And he's doing amazing now and, like, is getting his life together. And he's like, just one of my favorite people. And he. What I admire about him a lot is, like, at such a young age, like, he had the courage to, like, actually say and own, like, I don't know. And this doesn't resonate with me, and I'm okay with that. And if you're not okay with that, that's your problem. And it was like a really. He's just a really, like, he's the most chill person, but he's very, like, grounded in who he is and his beliefs from, like, a really young age. And I mean, I think he would tell you too, that weed, too much weed and too much of anything is not good, you know, and it's like, if you are going to dabble in those things, like, finding a balance is really great just because it's healthier And I think that's what he's tried to find in his life is he enjoys these things and what's the balance of doing them and enjoying them without it becoming. Without becoming dependent on it? Yeah, yeah. So that was a big part of my growing up and I was very close to him and so, you know, he would tell me a lot of things. And then my parents, like I was kind of in the middle of the whole situation, which I think put more pressure on me to feel like, oh, I can never do these things because I'm watching what's happening here and needing to try to keep it together and keep my brother. Okay. And my parents knowing these things and everyone. Yeah. Trying to juggle it.

John Dehlin [02:56:37] I guess. There's a way both, you know, the Mormon way of life and specifically the Mormon word of wisdom or the health code can like help a certain percentage of us reach adulthood relatively safe, relatively healthy, relatively functional. And then there's like this whole underbelly of like not understanding mental health and not understanding exploration and healthy developmental processes. Yeah, where, where, you know, where alk. You know, alcohol can be one of the worst possible things you could ever drink in terms of addiction and damage and harm. But then like, maybe that's not viewed as bad, but then weed is viewed as horrific, even though in many cases, or even mushrooms, it's way safer. Like we would all benefit from healthy adult education and discussion around substances. But of all the places in the world, Mormonism is one of the worst places for that because it's just like it's all evil. It's all black and white terrible. And it's all black and white and stay away from it all. And people aren't. Or maybe they don't do marijuana or alcohol, but then they're popping Adderalls or opiates and they're just self medicating in a totally different way. But sometimes in a more dangerous way.

Auz Engemann [02:58:00] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:58:01] It's a real problem in our culture. I'm sure I'm preaching the choir.

Samantha Shelley [02:58:08] Yeah. I've been on Adderall for 10 years because I got prescribed it at BYU Idaho. I don't really know if I have ADHD. I honestly like couldn't say one way or the other, but it's like BYU Idaho is where I was. Well, I feel like I did have an Adderall addiction phase where I was taking one of my prescription and it got. It got weird.

Auz Engemann [02:58:29] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:58:29] But listening to you share. Sorry, I'm backtracking a bit, but no, it's making me kind of question my relationship with Adderall because I kind of feel like I did a similar thing of, like, tried it and then got a prescription and then talked myself into thinking I have adhd.

Ellee Duke [02:58:45] I don't know.

Auz Engemann [02:58:45] Well, I. And listen, like, I do think it is something that does help a lot of people. Yeah. Right.

Samantha Shelley [02:58:50] And then I will say, yeah, it did really, like, significantly help my life. But I wonder.

Auz Engemann [02:58:56] Well, it's just with anything in life, you have to really look at your relationship with it. And if it's something that is genuinely helping, you keep doing it. But you have to be honest with yourself. And if it's not, maybe take. Maybe reconsider, you know, process. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:59:12] But what we need is we need healthy education around all these substances, Even psilocybin and mushrooms, even marijuana, cannabis, you know, opiates, Adderall. We need a healthy conversation. We need healthy education and the ability to communicate and be able to look

Auz Engemann [02:59:29] at it without the, you know, the blinders, biased, emotion. Yeah. Of the religion or the. Whatever your belief system is. Like, you just have to look at it and see it for what it is and decide if it's something that is. I mean, you have to make those decisions for yourself if it's something that you think is right or wrong. But looking at it from a. The most objective view that you can about it, I think is the healthiest way to do it.

John Dehlin [02:59:54] Yeah. And just to kind of. It's coming to me, kind of. What I'm saying is this idea of scripture is such an interesting and a powerful but problematic meme because these things were written in the case of the Bible two to 3,000 years ago. Right. Or in the Book of Mormon's case, 200 years ago, which is still in eternity in terms of, like, what we know about science and health and medicine in the world. And yet we, like. So, like, that's the source of truth. And like, Joseph Smith was literally just looking around Kirtland like, oh, people are complaining about alcohol. And Emma didn't like that. People are spitting tobacco in the temple. Let me, you know, pray to God and, okay, let me come up with some guidelines. And that's what we're all living with in 2022. Like, what about the potential health benefits of psychedelics? What about the fact that marijuana is probably a thousand times more safe than alcohol? Like, what about prescription drugs? Word of wisdom's got nothing.

Auz Engemann [03:00:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:00:59] On any of that. It's just like, stay away from it all and it's all bad. And, like, that's where scriptures Turn. They give us a superficial good. And I think, Ellie, for maybe for you and me, it served us well for a time. I'm not complaining. I got to adulthood safe and healthy and. And no big car crashes and no addictions and no unwanted pregnancies. And, you know, it worked for us, right?

Ellee Duke [03:01:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:01:25] But then there's a lot of people that like the black and white, poorly educated, insufficient. Both education and dialogue about these things drives things underground where you're doing stuff that's secret, where it's hidden, and you don't really know what you're getting into until it's too late. And you're afraid to talk to people about it because it's either all good or all terrible. And it. Again, it's the secrecy and this lack of education that drives a lot of this culture. And I think part of it stems from just like infantilization of relying on text that was written 200 to 2,000 years ago. Like, why do we have. If the church says modern day revelation, then freaking prophetess and revelators write new scripture that incorporates psychedelics and cannabis and updated medical research on all these substances, including prescription drugs. But otherwise, I think the scriptures are holding us back. I believe in the point.

Auz Engemann [03:02:31] Samantha, what do you think?

John Dehlin [03:02:32] You know?

Samantha Shelley [03:02:33] Yeah, of course. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:02:34] You see what I'm getting at?

Samantha Shelley [03:02:35] Yeah. And I mean, I grew up in England where we would have like, drugs education and they would teach us, here's what this drug does. Here's what. So we, we all had kind of a sense of like, okay, these are the ones that you really, really don't do. These ones, they just sound weird and like, I don't want to go there. And like, with sex education, it was like, have sex but do this. So it's like, people like me also made it to adulthood perfectly safe because I was never gonna have unprotected sex, was never gonna drink and drive, was never gonna do. You know what I mean? I wasn't gonna do drugs because my brain wasn't developed or, you know, didn't have any interest anyway. But it's like you can talk about all these things more nuanced and. And it's more safe because you don't have like that black and white thinking where if you do one thing, it's all kind of equated together and. Yeah, yeah, it's like, better for kids to know, okay, like, probably just don't do any drugs as a teenager because your brain's not developed. But like, if you do, at least don't do these Ones, you know?

John Dehlin [03:03:28] Right.

Ellee Duke [03:03:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:03:29] It's like, okay, you know, cannabis and maybe some psychedelics. Totally different class than like meth, heroin, cocaine.

Auz Engemann [03:03:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:03:39] You know, and honestly, alcohol, I think alcohol you could argue is as serious or worse. Right, right.

Ellee Duke [03:03:46] Poison.

Samantha Shelley [03:03:46] But if you like.

John Dehlin [03:03:47] No. Oh, go ahead.

Samantha Shelley [03:03:48] I was just gonna say like, if you grow up with parents who model healthy drinking habits, like having one or two glasses of wine, then it's, you know, it's like not. It's fine for a 19 year old to have a glass of wine, you know.

Auz Engemann [03:03:58] Well, I mean, it just goes back to. It's just your relationship with that thing.

John Dehlin [03:04:01] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [03:04:01] Right.

Auz Engemann [03:04:02] You can have a glass of wine or two and it's like no big deal.

Ellee Duke [03:04:05] Alcoholic.

Auz Engemann [03:04:06] Yeah. But then some people are drunks and it's like they're. That's all they can do.

John Dehlin [03:04:11] Yeah. And for, for believing Mormons out there listening, this is not like pro substance Mormon. No, no, I still haven't tried alcohol. I've still never tried cannabis, you know, but, but I mean, we just, we need to do better. We need to figure out how to have better. And I was just going to say no young men's, you know, lesson ever. No young women's lesson ever. No relief society lesson ever, or no elders quorum lesson ever talked about more dangerous drugs. Less dangerous drugs. Relatively not super dangerous drugs. Let's talk about all of them and understand.

Auz Engemann [03:04:48] Right.

John Dehlin [03:04:49] Like, why wouldn't we be having those conversations in fear in God's one true church?

Auz Engemann [03:04:55] Right. Yeah.

Ellee Duke [03:04:56] Information is power. So like the more knowledge you have, the more you can make the conscious better decision versus if you're just winging it and you're just like, I don't know, this sounds fun or this person did it and you don't actually have the science or the knowledge behind. Okay, let me critically think about if I take this drug or if I do this thing, how will this affect me? So that's, that's really cool that you had all that information and you could make those critical decisions, you know. That's great. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:05:25] Yeah. And, and I think just going to sex, like Natasha's talked about this. Good sex education leads to less unwanted pregnancies, less abortions, less rape, less assault. There's no. I think it's actually been demonstrated that a lack of good sex education leads to more unhealthy sexual activity.

Samantha Shelley [03:05:50] Yeah, definitely.

John Dehlin [03:05:52] But it's, but it's. I don't want to like beat up religion or Mormonism, but it's like a lack of, of education and a And a backwards, you know, centuries to millennia old mindset that really keeps us from learning and behaving in more healthy ways. I hate to say it, I'm not trying to beat up the church, but that's how I feel.

Auz Engemann [03:06:18] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [03:06:18] No, I mean, I feel like if there's an area where you should beat up the church, like, sexuality is one, because it, the, the, the damage is so endless. Like, even just the shame cycle that, like, people will get in for masturbating, which is like a healthy thing to do. Like, there's just so much. But this, I feel like sexuality is the, is one of the church's primary control tools because it's what keeps you in the shame cycle. Keeps you, you know, psychologically dependent on them.

John Dehlin [03:06:45] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [03:06:45] And. Yeah, like pregnancies and people having kids when they're not ready and like, that stuff is like, not small, you know, like, that's a thing where it's worth beating up the church for because it, the consequences are really big.

John Dehlin [03:06:58] Yeah. Yeah. So I'm super sorry you had those experiences, us, and I'm really, I'm really glad you were able to get, get sober and get well. And I'm really, mostly I'm just grateful that by sharing this part of your story, we're able to have a conversation about it.

Auz Engemann [03:07:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:07:15] Which may help other people later.

Ellee Duke [03:07:17] That's the goal.

Auz Engemann [03:07:18] Well, and something I feel like I need to say too is I appreciate you saying you're sorry, but like, I, I look at it as a great thing because it's made me who I am and it's made me stronger. You know, like the, the tough things that we go through in life are the things that hopefully, if we have the ability to look at them in a positive way, they can be things that forge like a really beautiful, like, person. It's just all part of the human experience. Like, and I'm thankful for it because it's made me better.

John Dehlin [03:07:49] Yeah.

Auz Engemann [03:07:50] And more and more empathetic and more compassionate and.

John Dehlin [03:07:53] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it's certainly common. Yeah. So thanks everyone for, for joining us for part one of this amazing episode with. With Ellie Duke and us Ingaman and don't go away. Come right back for part two where we're going to hear all those things and much, much more. Thanks, Sam. It's great to have you with us today.

Samantha Shelley [03:08:13] Yeah. Having a good time.

John Dehlin [03:08:14] All right, see you guys soon. See you back on the flip side. Don't go away. Come right back for, for the next part. Take care, everybody.

Part Two Begins and Ellee's New Music

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 1625

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I am one of your hosts for today, John Dehlin. And of course, I'm in the studio today with special guest co host Samantha Shelley. Hey, Samantha. Welcome back.

Samantha Shelley [00:00:14] Hello.

John Dehlin [00:00:15] It's good to have you. It is July 11th, and we are now in part two of what I'm finding to be a really fascinating, epic, interesting, heartfelt interview with Ellie Duke and Oz Ingeman. And we've covered so many cool themes and topics. So if you haven't watched part one, pause this, go back and watch or listen to part one. But in part one, we talked about Ellie growing up in Draper, Utah, knowing that she wanted to be a singer songwriter from a very young age, and how she and her family were super determined, including going to Nashville, including, you know, auditioning for American Idol, including paying her dues, including winning Alta Idol. What was it called?

Ellee Duke [00:01:04] Alta Idol.

John Dehlin [00:01:05] Like, even winning Alta Idol, doing whatever it takes to. To make it big in the music industry. And when we left off for your part, Ellie, you. You had been accepted onto American Idol, but you declined because you also got an offer to have a recording contract. And I should also state, most importantly, that we're timing this episode to coincide with the release of a brand new single that you are releasing today. And so I'm gonna hit that. I'm gonna mention that at the beginning of both these episodes. So tell us again what that single is.

Ellee Duke [00:01:43] Yeah, it's a new song out called Deeper, and I wrote it about kind of just encompassing a faith transition that I've been through. And it's available on all streaming platforms. And hope it makes you cry. Happy, happy good healing hot girl healing summer tears.

Samantha Shelley [00:02:02] Yes, it did make me cry. Well, it made me cry when I was watching you and your mom listening to it in the car.

Ellee Duke [00:02:08] Oh, yeah, that was powerful. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:12] And that's how. And that's how I found out about you is just through TikTok and Instagram. But. But that's just shows how old and out of touch I am because you've. You've written a number one hit. Like we mentioned in last episode. Not only did she, you know, get accepted into American Idol, but she, like, wrote a song that was recorded by JLo that hasn't yet been released. Is that right?

Ellee Duke [00:02:33] Yeah, it's not out yet.

John Dehlin [00:02:34] But you also had a number one Billboard hit, which was called Craving with

Ellee Duke [00:02:39] already an audience song that I wrote that came out in 2020. And yeah, I went number one on Billboard wild.

John Dehlin [00:02:46] And you've got your own Your own singles that you've released on.

Ellee Duke [00:02:49] Yeah, I've been releasing music on all. Just. All the. All the places for last since, like, 2019.

John Dehlin [00:02:56] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [00:02:57] And I just opened my own label last year, and I'm a CEO.

Guest [00:03:05] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [00:03:05] It's great. We out here just living the dream.

John Dehlin [00:03:09] Yeah. And so part two is going to be where we kind of pick off from you. Graduating from high school.

Ellee Duke [00:03:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:15] Getting your record deal and just to kind of, like, bring us from then to now in this exciting time. And. And. And as I mentioned before, like, whether it's Mindy Gledhill or Wayne Sermon from Imagine Dragons or Tyler Glenn of Neon Trees, like, whenever there's an artist that is weaving their Mormon journey or their faith journey into their art and making that public, I feel like I want to do all I can to showcase it, promote it, and help connect it with my audience.

Auz Engemann [00:03:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:49] So that's. That's why I felt passionately about having you out.

Ellee Duke [00:03:52] Oh, well, thank you. Yeah. This is the perfect platform for it, honestly. So.

John Dehlin [00:03:57] And then, as I have to admit, I didn't know anything about you at all, like, up until, like, two days ago. I don't even think it was planned that you were gonna come.

Auz Engemann [00:04:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:05] But Ellie's like, hey, OS is available. And, like, your episode was so cool. Just you're part of your story, and I'm just recapping, but, like, you growing up with. With kind of a really famous grandparent that managed Marie Osmond and was in the recording industry, and then your mom is an actress and as a model and your dad as a musician, and then your parents as architects and as, you know, Larry King connection. But then your story of growing up in Provo and, you know, figuring out who you wanted to be as a kid, and then your struggles with Adderall addiction and with drug addiction and then overcoming, it was like a. It was like a secret weapon. Like, I had no idea that was coming last episode, and it was really powerful. So I'm only recapping because I want people to pause and go back and watch that. It's going to make this next part so much more useful. So, Oz, it's a surprise and a super delight to have you on Mormon stories as well.

Auz Engemann [00:05:04] Thank you. Glad to be here.

John Dehlin [00:05:05] Yeah. Okay, so as we left off, Ellie, with your story. You're 18, and you've got this record deal turning down American Idol and us where we left it is you. You were about to meet Ellie, but we now have to go back five years because you meet Ellie when you're how old?

Label Experiences and the Cost of Artistic Compromise

Auz Engemann [00:05:22] 26.

John Dehlin [00:05:23] 26. And Ellie is 21.

Ellee Duke [00:05:25] 21.

John Dehlin [00:05:26] 21. So we've got like, we got to go back and just rewind and. And so it's. We're 18 again. You graduate from high school, Ellie, and where. You know how and where did your career progress after turning down American Idol and getting. Getting a record deal with Taylor Swift's label, by the way?

Ellee Duke [00:05:47] Like, yes.

John Dehlin [00:05:48] Can't forget to mention that.

Auz Engemann [00:05:49] Right?

Ellee Duke [00:05:51] Yeah. So I graduated early. I moved to Nashville like the summer after my senior year. And I found this little condo on Hillsborough in, like, almost in the heart of Nashville is like probably 10, 15 minutes from Music Row. And it was like a two story little condo that I found for a steal. And I just moved in. My parents came out, helped me kind of like move in, and then they took off and I was just thrown right into the mix. I was writing with different songwriters and producers every single day, almost at least five days a week. The plan at that point was kind of just like, find a sound. Like, you need to find a sound and a lane. And I. I wasn't like fully country when I signed. Like, I was definitely kind of like Colby Calais, like, singer, songwriter, pop, but I played guitar. And so when I signed, they kind of said to me, like, oh, you know, well, we'll see what you do, like, genre wise. But then immediately I'm thrown into these writing sessions with like, the most country old men in, like, the industry, and they want to write about trucks and, you know, bear.

Auz Engemann [00:07:12] And I was just like, sounds so stereotypical.

John Dehlin [00:07:14] But that really was.

Ellee Duke [00:07:15] No, that really was what it was. And I'm like, I'm just kind of a weird, like, quirky person. So I would bring in like, weird titles and weird concepts and. And like, people would just look at me like, are you out of your mind? Like, that's, that's not. You can't write a song about that. And so that was kind of immediately a struggle because I was so used to writing by myself and, like, writing whatever. I wanted to suddenly have all these people kind of telling me like, you can't sing about that or that's not gonna work or that's too weird or that's too off center. And so, yeah, I kind of just wrote for like, you know, a solid six, seven, eight months. A lot of, like, country songs that, like, didn't really feel country and nobody kind of knew what it was. And it was definitely trying so hard to be pop, but there'd like, still be a banjo on it or like, like it was just trying to stay in that lane so hard that I think the songs were still good, but it was kind of just this weird like cluster thing of sounds and styles that just weren't like marrying and. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:24] So can I ask a question about that?

Ellee Duke [00:08:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:25] Because I, I like to geek out.

Ellee Duke [00:08:26] Yeah, geek out.

John Dehlin [00:08:28] So. So like a record. So Taylor Swift's record label is signing you. In my mind, it's like you would have already had an album, you would have already had songs, maybe you would have self produced an album and they would have just like put you with the producer, tuned up that album and you'd be off and running. And that you, you had mentioned having 400 songs you had written by the time you're 18 or whatever.

Samantha Shelley [00:08:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:53] You know, you could pick 10 songs for your next album and 10 songs for your next album and you would have, in, in my mind of how it would normally work, you would have already known your genre, you'd have already known your lane as you called it, your brand or however, you know, and you would have already had a following and hits. So I'm thinking I must not understand what makes a record label sign someone. Because for them to sign you and then you go out there and you're like, okay, who am I? And let's put them with the banjo. Let's put her with the banjo. That's a different beginning than what my mind would have said would have been how it all began. Can you help explain that a little bit?

Samantha Shelley [00:09:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:35] So it's wrong, it's just different.

Ellee Duke [00:09:36] Yeah, no, I mean, I feel like I thought that a lot myself. Like before I was signed, I just kind of thought, you know, all these songs that I'm playing are going to be the ones that we probably record. And yeah, like typically in an industry like standard deal, whether it's record deal or publishing deal and you're signed as an artist, there's kind of this process that people want you to go through of like, I think at that point too, no one felt like I had like the biggest hit. And that's what kind of the goal was when they signed me was like, you have the potential to have like the big hits, but you haven't written them yet. And so let's put you in the room with all these other songwriters, producers who have written successful songs, who have a track record of having a hit or two or three, and then see what you write with them. And hopefully you write a hit and hopefully we all think it's a hit. And then if it is. And that all works out, then we'll put it out, and you'll get famous, and you'll be the next Taylor Swift and Bada Bing, bada boom. So that was kind of their, like, plan, I guess, how it was explained to me.

John Dehlin [00:10:39] So they would have heard you sing?

Ellee Duke [00:10:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:41] They would have said, okay, she's got a voice. Okay. She can play an instrument. Okay. She meets whatever appearance criteria we have. She's been doing this for a while. Like, I'm wondering what the checkboxes. And you, I guess you had made relationships.

Ellee Duke [00:10:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:57] Because you mentioned the gentleman that you kind of got connected with.

Ellee Duke [00:11:00] Yeah, well, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:02] So, I mean, I guess I'm trying to guess what the checkboxes were that made them go. Yep, we signed the deal.

Ellee Duke [00:11:06] Yeah. Like, when they signed, when Taylor first was there, I mean, like, she. I know that she worked with, like, a couple different producers for a while before they started releasing music on her. So I think it was just this process that had kind of already been established that when, you know, me not having ever been signed before, I didn't know that. But then I'm thrown in, and it's like, oh, you know, we probably won't release a song for a couple of years or a year or. And you're kind of just like, whoa. But, okay, like, what do I know? I'm just this girl from Utah that. You guys have done this way longer than I have, you know? So there was a bit of me just kind of entrusting my career with these people that I kind of felt like they knew the ropes. They'd done all the things, and they knew all the people that were doing all the things I wanted to do. And so I just kind of didn't ask questions. And it was like, cool, great. But then when they started trying to really push country on me, and I wrote for six months and tried to write country songs, and it didn't feel right. That's when I kind of started to push back a bit.

John Dehlin [00:12:06] What do you mean?

Ellee Duke [00:12:07] I just came into my. My. I just came in one day, and I just was like, I just don't feel like this is the lane for me. Like, I feel like I need to not be so locked into, Like, I have to be country because I don't feel like, creatively I'm able to create what I want to if I'm in this box.

John Dehlin [00:12:27] And so that's what the label exec

Ellee Duke [00:12:30] or whatever, or that's kind of with, like, one of the people on my team that was like, I didn't ever deal with, like, the president of the label day in, day out. It was more like the publishing people that were kind of, like, developing me and setting up my calendar and introducing me around and taking that on. And so, yeah, so then they put me in with, like, a couple producers that did, like, a lot more, like, just pop stuff. And like, immediately it was like, oh, okay, this is, like, something different and more, like, special. It feels more unique. Feels like Elaine. And so they were all excited and. And then I wrote, like, more pop stuff for a while. And then my booking agent that I had gotten when I signed with them, he also was Leanne Rhymes booking agent. And so I was kind of telling him about, you know, I really just kind of want to do more, like, pop stuff. And, like, I'm just kind of sick of feeling boxed in with my concepts and the things I want to say. And so he ended up getting me on a tour with her. And so we came to the west coast and I played, like, 12 shows with her. And then when I was in LA, I did, like, three sessions there, songwriting sessions with, like, really, like, pop producers and writers that, like, only did pop. They weren't, like, country producers who did pop kind of half time. It was like full time. They were always writing and creating pop music. And I just had so much fun. It was like, the most fun and most joy I'd had in a session and creating in, like, a really long time. And so I came back to Nashville and I basically was just like, I want to move to la. Like, I feel like that's where I'm supposed to be and I don't want to do country. And my team was kind of just like, okay, well, yeah, we obviously hear what you're making, and it's definitely like, there's something there. So, like, let's, you know, kind of package some songs together, and then let's take this to the president of the company and kind of pitch it to him and see what he thinks, and then try to get his blessing on you going to L. A. And so I, like, prepped really intensely for that meeting. Like, I rehearsed what I was going to say, what I was going to wear, like, what songs I was going to do, how I was going to introduce them. Talking about the tour. I had all these, like, talking points I was supposed to bring up. And, um, I'd only interacted with the president of the label, Scott Bruschetta, like, you know, handful of times, like, didn't know him super well. So I Go into this meeting and, like, everyone is there, my entire team. He's there. My mom was there. Will, my, like, mentor was there. And I kind of start talking about, you know, these couple. I've been writing for a couple years, and I have this new sound and this kind of direction that we're wanting to go. And I just went on tour with LeAnn Rimes, and I was in LA and. And I was like, and I want to move to LA and I want to do, like, more pop stuff. And long story short, like, the meeting was just kind of a disaster, and he was not happy about that at all. And I ended up leaving, and I was crying, and it was like, oh, well.

John Dehlin [00:15:53] So just to get some context for that, had they had invested a ton of money in you? Had they given you, like, a signing? Like, you don't have donates or anything that you're not getting?

Samantha Shelley [00:16:01] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:01] Like, is there a signing bonus or are you on salary? Are you living, like, eating ramen and, you know, like.

Ellee Duke [00:16:08] Yeah, so I had, like, a salary, and there's kind of like a general salary that you get, like, and you're basically. Your job is creating music and working with this company, and they're kind of. It's sort of like a partnership in a sense, but it's all recoupable. So as soon as I start making money, they start getting paid back for the money that they've put in, essentially. So it's like a loan, you know, it's not like your money. It's like you have to pay it all back. So it was just interesting because, like.

John Dehlin [00:16:37] And how long. How long had you been working for them before you have this big meeting?

Ellee Duke [00:16:42] About a year and a half.

John Dehlin [00:16:44] Whoa. So they didn't. I mean, and I'm not trying to make a big deal about it, but they'd invested for a year and a half, so I can see why they'd be like, I don't want you to go. We've invested, you know, we're almost there. Like, stick with us. I could imagine.

Samantha Shelley [00:16:55] Or.

Ellee Duke [00:16:56] Yeah. I mean, we weren't almost there at all, just because the country songs that I had written were just not it. And so it was just kind of like, are we. It was kind of like, I either just be this artist and. And cut someone else's song and put on this whole image that wasn't me, or I tried to do the initial, which was get with really great writers and create something really special and unique, like what Taylor Swift did. But it wasn't necessarily Going to be country. But because they had. They were really comfortable with that process and they were familiar with how the country world works with, like, it's so different from the pop world. It's completely different worlds, how music comes out, how stuff released, radio, the budgets, everything is so different. So, yeah, 100. Like, I could totally see as well why he would be like, what. Like, that's not what I was hoping would happen, you know. And so he, yeah, didn't go well. And I. He basically said, like, if we're wasting your time and like, there's the door. If like you want to do your own thing, like, feel free to go. And so the team that I'd worked with and like kind of gotten all this. Gotten to this point with thus far was like, you know, still behind me to an extent and still believed in, like, what I was doing. And so they were kind of like, oh, he'll come around. Like, we'll figure it out. And so I moved to la and they were kind of, for a while, just. We were trying to figure out maybe another team in LA that could sort of partner that would make sense with everything.

John Dehlin [00:18:24] And because do they own you at that point? Like, do you have a contract where, like, if you. You're not allowed to.

Ellee Duke [00:18:30] No, I couldn't have worked with any. Like, they would have had to approve and sign and be like, heavily involved in that. So, yeah. And so I went out there, we met with a bunch of people. Like, there wasn't a ton of interest and it was kind of. I don't know. I also wasn't at the point where I had the song yet, or so everyone thought. And so it was like, well, she needs the hit. Like, where's the hit and what's the sound? And she has all these like half country songs. And now she's trying to do pop, but she hasn't done it long enough where it fully makes sense. And so I just, I. It was just like a headache and just kind of like my, my big dream and this company that I wanted to be with more than anything, I suddenly was kind of just. It's just you have this, this, this interpretation of it outside and then you get right in it and you're like, oh, like, this isn't at all what I thought it was gonna be. Like, what you said. Like, I thought I was gonna jump in and make an album and have a hit and it was just gonna all like, boom, boom, boom, boom happen.

John Dehlin [00:19:30] And soon you'd be playing stadiums.

Ellee Duke [00:19:32] Yeah. And, you know, here I am Like a year and a half in and I don't know what my sound is. I don't have the songs. The president of my label basically was like, CEO, I don't care what you're doing, feel free to leave. And I moved to LA and no one wanted to partner. And so it was just like. It was tough. It was a tough time and

Auz Engemann [00:19:53] I.

Ellee Duke [00:19:54] My deal was up for renewal, so basically they could either keep me or drop me that, like, September. And I basically just. I asked for them to let me out because I just felt like a. The president of my company. There was a lot of parts of my, I guess, my contract where, you know, there was control that was had and so things could go one way or the other for me that wasn't in my control to a large extent. And that made me really nervous because if someone isn't behind what I'm trying to do and supportive of me being myself and really, like, being an artist and not just a puppet, like, what's the point of me being there? Like, I could just get totally screwed over. And so I didn't have a lot of trust anymore in the team and what kind of the situation was because of things that were said in that meeting. And so I asked out and because he had said, well, you're free to go. Like, I. I went and I got out and thank God I did because it was definitely not the right situation for me. Although I learned a lot and I. I'm glad it all happened. It was. Yeah, it was a really tough time.

John Dehlin [00:21:03] I mean, I'm just thinking back to you saying no to American Idol. Now you're saying no to the label. Every musician wants to sign a label with table. Taylor Swift's label. And you're saying, I, I. Peace out. I think, and for good reasons. But, like, that's. That must have been a really difficult.

Ellee Duke [00:21:23] It was really. I mean, I had so many people that were like, you're an idiot. Like, what are you doing? Just. Just be. Just be this thing that they want you to be for a couple years, and then maybe you can sing what you want to sing about.

John Dehlin [00:21:36] But. But then you hear about artists selling. There's the word, selling out, you know, and like, you started doing it because you loved it.

Ellee Duke [00:21:44] Yeah, and I lost. I was losing that. I started to resent the industry and my passion because I just felt like the exact reason why I was doing this. I don't know where it is. It's like I'm now listening to, you know, all these other people and their Voices. And I'm trying to be these things that I'm not. And I'm trying to please all these people on top of the church pressure of trying to be this example and plea. And, like, the community in Utah that knows I'm a singer, and all these girls that are looking up to me. And it was just this whole mess of, like, outer expectation and pressure that I was just so, like, so in. Like, I was so in it. And so basically, I. I got out of that deal. My booking agent, he sent my music to a bunch of other labels and. And companies in Nashville. And I had this. Meghan Trainor's publishing company, which is, like, songwriting and music licensing and all that kind of stuff, heard one of my songs, and they wanted to meet with me, and so I met with them. And this was literally maybe a month and a half after I got out of that whole thing. And so I'm just like. I'm kind of freaking out because I'm, like, a. I'm not getting paid anymore and be like, what do I do now? You know, like, I spent the last, like, couple years thinking this is. And then now it's not, and, like, what's happening? And so I go and meet with this other company, and I don't know why this happens, but, like, first meeting, they're just like, we want to sign you. We're in. And I'm just like, really, like, okay. And they're just like, you're super talented. We love what you're doing. We totally get. You're not country, like. And so I signed with them two months later and was in another deal.

John Dehlin [00:23:33] What year was that?

Ellee Duke [00:23:34] That was 2016. End of 2016.

John Dehlin [00:23:39] Okay.

Samantha Shelley [00:23:40] Yeah. Okay.

Ellee Duke [00:23:42] So I. At that same time, I started dating this guy that I had known from high school, and we'd always been really good friends. I dated a lot of his friends. He'd taken me to a dance once, and, like, we were just friends, but I think he'd always liked me more than that.

John Dehlin [00:24:01] He was out in la, and he.

Ellee Duke [00:24:03] Yeah, So I found out that he was living in San Diego and, like, doing modeling, and he was going to school, and. And we, like, were both going back home for Thanksgiving. And so he hit me up and was like, oh, do you want to, like, road trip, like, and drive together and, like, share gas, whatever? And I was like, sure. And so he and I ended up, like, getting into a relationship eventually, and at the same time was like, I was just in this new deal, and he had been Mormon, but, like, wasn't Anymore. And when I lived in Nashville, like, I went to some other churches like that. Like, I went to a non denominational, like, Christian church with some of my friends and I just met a lot of people for the first time in my life that weren't Mormon. Like, for the first time in my life, I wasn't like, special for being Mormon. It was like, you're just another person and nobody gives a crap what your religion is. Like, that's like the least interesting thing about you basically, you know, and that was like, new for me to be in this. It's like, oh, nobody cares if you're Catholic, Mormon, atheist, Buddhist, whatever. And so I went to these other churches and I started to kind of feel like I would get emotional or I'd feel really connected or I'd have these really cool moments. And then when I moved to la, I went to this church called Mosaic and church home and I would have like, just these really great feelings and. And a lot of like, feeling of just like, love and kind of this like, simplified overview of like, God loves you and you're good, Just keep doing your best. And that, like, really spoke to me. And so I think I started getting a little bit in my head about like, if kind of what you were saying when you were like doing shrooms, like, if you feel these things in these places, then is this the. Is this thing that you're from really the only true thing or the only way? And also making relationships with all these people that I became close friends with and respected, and I'm seeing them live these completely different lives than me, but I'm like, you're an amazing person and like, we're really not that different. And what we believe really isn't that different. And so I don't really get why mine is the only one that's true, you know, and you're. You're really wrong, like, underneath this, but I'm, you know.

John Dehlin [00:26:19] Meaning Mormonism.

Ellee Duke [00:26:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:20] Yeah. Mark Twain is famous for saying, travel is fatal to prejudice. Meaning that once you get out there and you see other types of people, you can't be a bigot anymore because you just see the world. If you see gay people, you see feminists, and you see people of color and, and Jews and Muslims and atheists.

Ellee Duke [00:26:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:40] Sudden it's like, wait, we're no better than them.

Ellee Duke [00:26:42] Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:26:43] And they're better than us.

Ellee Duke [00:26:44] Yeah, exactly. That totally happened to me where I'm like, man, you're a better person than I am. Who would have thought? Imagine that. Yeah. So basically, I that was kind of. When I moved out of Utah was kind of the beginning of, you know, me kind of. Yeah. Just experiencing all these different things, different cultures, different churches, different people. And I think my mind just was so opened to, like, oh my gosh, there's just. We're all just out here believing stuff and talking about stuff. And like, are any of us really wrong? You know, and so that was in my mind. So anyways, I started dating this guy. I just got in this new music deal. I started dating this guy. He had been Mormon, wasn't anymore, and had some pretty, like, strong feelings about the church and whatnot. And so it came up, you know, like, where I was kind of questioning things and he kind of started saying things to me about it, you know, that kind of got in my head a little and I was like, yeah, those are kind of good points. And anyways, previously to that relationship, I had dated another guy in California right before this guy. And I was like, pretty brokenhearted about that relationship. And so I think there was part of me that was in like an effort phase that kind of just felt like I just don't really. I like, I'm tired of like, trying so hard in all these aspects of my life. And I kind of hit this, like, with the church with like, my self worth. It's like I was so exhausted from just like spending. Yeah. Just so much of my life kind of living for other people. And I just sort of was like, so burned out of like, caring so much about my beliefs and my worthiness and my actions and my career. And it's like all of it kind of just came to this head in this relationship and I just wasn't in a good place. Like, mentally. I just. I just kind of lost myself in this relationship. I also lost my virginity. And it was kind of a gray situation because I. I didn't want to. And I was really pressured and it was just like a really tough time where I just. I didn't care about myself as much as I did previously. And I just like, mentally was kind of deteriorating with just. Yeah, just kind of like. It's like these extremes. It's like I went from one extreme to another. It's like I cared so much and I was trying so hard. And then I kind of just. Just kind of like the air just completely went out of me and I just like, didn't care about myself anymore.

John Dehlin [00:29:25] You referenced last episode your why and you said it was the church. It was sort of like, yes, you wanted to be a singer songwriter, but like, there was a. Why there? Which was to, like, promote the gospel and to promote the church. And kind of. It was almost like, heavenly Father, in your mind, you struck a deal with Heavenly Father.

Ellee Duke [00:29:44] I'm like, you gave me this gift, and so I'm gonna live my whole life and use it to all these. And do all these great things with it. And so when that wasn't happening, my dream deal, my Taylor Swift label, whatever, had completely fallen apart. And the president of the company was basically like, middle finger Sia. Don't. Don't care. Go, like, go away. You know, it's like I kind of internalized that as, like, I'm not worthy enough. I'm not doing enough. Maybe I did something wrong. Maybe this is another test. And I kind of got angry with God because I was just kind of like, you're not following your end of the deal. Like, I am. And so this relationship that I got into, I think part of it was kind of like, okay, well, I'm just gonna do whatever the hell I want because you're not helping me, and I don't care. And I'm trying and, like, trying to be so perfect. And I just had this, like, really twisted mentality about all of that and.

John Dehlin [00:30:45] Or normal and healthy and natural.

Ellee Duke [00:30:47] Right, right, right. I mean, yeah, of course that's what I'm gonna think based on my experiences. Yeah. But it was just. Yeah. Looking back at it, it's like, wow, that's. It was not my job to do any of that, but I just thought it was, and that was my reality. And. Yeah, so with that relationship, obviously, after I wasn't a virgin anymore and I. And that relationship had ended, I went to my bishop and, you know, told him about the relationship. And it was. It was just. It was a tricky thing because it was a really toxic relationship. And I had never, like, done anything past the point. So it was kind of a 0 to 100 for me with this person that I wasn't in love with. And it was just, like, a really shitty situation. I felt really bad about myself and bad because I wasn't treated well also in the relationship.

Early Relationship Harms and Ecclesiastical Shame

John Dehlin [00:31:41] Sounds like your first sexual experience wasn't fully consensual. I mean, it sounds like that's kind of what you said.

Ellee Duke [00:31:45] It wasn't. Yeah, it wasn't fully consensual. And that's been really hard for me. Cause I tried so much in the relationship to resist. And then I got so worn, like, so wore down because I was just mentally and emotionally a total disaster. And so I was in such a vulnerable place, and that was taken advantage of. And so basically I came to my bishop and I tried to explain these circumstances and. And it wasn't. I didn't ever feel like it was received with. I don't know. And obviously it's my opinion, but I just. I didn't ever feel like it was fair, kind of like how I was treated. And it was kind of like, okay, you're not going to be able to go to the temple for a year. We're going to take your recommend. You can't take the sacrament. And coming from somebody that was like. And I had explained this, like, such a perfectionist, so hard on themselves, had never done anything like this to be like, okay, you are just like, no sacrament, no temple, no nothing. Was kind of just like, for a year. For a year.

John Dehlin [00:32:59] So that's called disfellowshipment or informal probation.

Ellee Duke [00:33:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:05] Were you allowed to take the sacrament?

Auz Engemann [00:33:06] No.

John Dehlin [00:33:07] So you couldn't take the sacrament, Couldn't go to the temple? And for those who aren't Mormon, if you're, if you're attending a congregation with other kids your age, what is that? I mean, Scarlett letter comes to my mind, but what is that? What are the social implications?

Ellee Duke [00:33:22] Especially in a singles ward where, like, everyone there are your peers and, like, you sit next to everyone in church, and it's a small ward. I mean, I'm in LA. I'm not in Utah where there's like 150 people or more. It's like, you know, there's. It's a smaller, smaller wardrobe. And so immediately you're just like, oh, my gosh, everyone's gonna know that I'm not worthy or I can't participate in

Auz Engemann [00:33:44] these things because the sacrament comes to

John Dehlin [00:33:46] you and what do you have to do?

Ellee Duke [00:33:47] And you hold it and you take a piece, and then if you. If you can't, then you just pass it along and you can't, like, participate.

John Dehlin [00:33:52] And in your mind, what happens when you receive the sacrament tray with bread in it or water in it? You're in your. And you pass it by in your mind. What is that?

Ellee Duke [00:34:01] You're unworthy. You're not forgiven. You're. And everyone around you and everyone around you is. Is may. Are they thinking that of me? Are they aware of this? Do they think I'm a bad person? So the shame for me was like. I mean, it was a living hell, like, what I felt like. And I think the cupcake thing came up in my. My psyche, you know, and I'm Just like, no one's ever going to want me. Like, I. And also, how am I. How am I ever going to explain this to somebody? And in that relationship, I had a pregnancy scare. And so there was one point where I thought that I was. And I had to go to my OB GYN and I took a test and I wasn't, but they were like. But I still had missed it for my period for, like, quite a while. And that was, like, torment. I mean, I felt like this is God punishing me for having sex. Now I'm gonna maybe be pregnant and my career will be over and I'm gonna have to have a baby and, like, be with this. Like, I was just so, like, everything that was happening to me was, like a punishment or a blessing or based on if it was good or bad and on my, like, actions, essentially. So I had. I called my parents and I told them, Like, I was like, I, you know, this happened and I might, like, I don't know, and. And obviously I wasn't. And everything, you know, ended up. It ended up coming when I was at church ironically, and I had, like, a white dress on, and it was like, oh, hello. But, yeah, that scared. Scared me so bad. And I kind of just felt like, okay, this was. This was a sign from God that, like, a. You need to, like, get your life back together and if you want your career to work out, then, like, this is kind of your last chance. And, like, I just thought that, you

John Dehlin [00:35:57] know, when you made that call, like, your parents weren't us's parents, right?

Auz Engemann [00:36:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:02] Like, that's a different phone call that you had to make. And I'm not asking you to out your parents or disown your parents, but I just.

Ellee Duke [00:36:08] They were super loving.

John Dehlin [00:36:09] Oh, wow.

Ellee Duke [00:36:09] Yeah, they were. And I. And I was distraught. I mean, I was. I don't. I don't know if they could have been upset because I was just like. I couldn't barely talk, you know.

John Dehlin [00:36:18] You were kind of sobbing.

Ellee Duke [00:36:19] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:20] Ugly crack.

Ellee Duke [00:36:21] Oh, yeah. I was just.

John Dehlin [00:36:22] I'm so sorry.

Ellee Duke [00:36:23] That's okay. Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:29] All right. Is something coming up for you? A little bit.

Ellee Duke [00:36:33] Yeah. I. I think I'm just feeling. I'm remembering, like, how dark that time was. And it just makes me so sad when I think about her because she didn't do anything wrong, you know, and she hated herself. Like, I don't even feel like I'm that person anymore because I've truly, like, come so far from that. But, like, at the time, like, I. I just Like, I was barely hanging on, you know? Like, that was just. Yeah. Like, the kind of the lowest, like, I'd ever. I'd ever been. And I just didn't. I didn't have, like, a good relationship with God because I feel like my relationship with God was transactional. And so I didn't really have, like, anything grounding me except this, like, hope that maybe, like, I could, you know, someday feel forgiven of this, and, like, maybe things would get better if I, like, earned my way back to that point, you know? And it just. It's just crazy because, like, I'm. That's so far now from what I believe about all those things, but, like, to know how deep I was in that and the shame, like, and also with it being blurry with the consent, I think it's just been. It's been tough. It's been a really tough thing for me. And, like, literally, right. I. I remember being in my car, and I had just met with my bishop, and he'd, like, said all those things about my. My repentance process. That's what you want to call it, but. And I literally just, like, started praying, and I was just like, I don't even know what I want anymore. I don't even know what to do. I don't even know what I believe. Like, and, like, I'm just done. Like, I'm never gonna date anybody again. Like, I'm never gonna, like, look at anybody again. And, like, if you want me to, like, meet anybody or, like, if there's anyone for me, like, you're just gonna have to send them to me because, like, I'm not. Like, I just completely give up, and I just don't know if approach, like, these emotions again. And, like, around this time was when I had met Austin.

John Dehlin [00:39:05] So you're what age by this time?

Ellee Duke [00:39:07] I'm 21.

John Dehlin [00:39:07] Okay.

Ellee Duke [00:39:08] Yeah. So I met Austin through my roommate who was friends with him, and basically, like, I was. You know, I had been dating this guy at the same time that I had met Austin, and so he was kind of, like, flirting with me a little bit, and then he saw that my screensaver was me and this guy, and so he kind of, you know, like, I feel like you backed off of it. But then eventually, like, you know, we broke up, and then he found out because, like, I had had a picture on my Instagram, and I deleted it once. The relationship. Yeah. And so he texted me this the night of, like, the morning that I said that prayer. And, like, you know, I didn't. He was Just like, hey, like, what are you doing tonight? You want to go on, like a night hike with some friends? And I was like, yeah, like, you know, these are good people for me to be around.

Auz Engemann [00:40:00] And it was the first time that I had texted, yeah, individual.

Ellee Duke [00:40:03] He had kind of been texting me in group texts and stuff. And yeah, it was the first time he just texted me. And so I ended up going and having just like a great time. And like, everyone was just.

Samantha Shelley [00:40:15] It was just.

Ellee Duke [00:40:15] It was just being around people that. It was like, a really good feeling. And I hadn't. I hadn't had that for a while in that previous relationship. And so, yeah, we kind of just from there, like, it slowly just. We kind of started talking and then, you know, a few weeks went by and then we were hanging out at, like, this bonfire and we just, like, talked the whole time. And it was like one of those moments where, like, you literally feel like the whole world stops and it's just the two of you and there's, like, nobody else there. And I had never really felt like that with anyone before. And so we were just talking around this campfire and yeah, like, we both were just crushing, like, super hard. And then he asked me out, like, a week later maybe, and we went out and I, like, I had never. I don't feel like my family was as big on communication. I feel like it was a little bit more of like, we don't know how to talk about our feelings, so we're just gonna sort of step over them. And so I didn't know how to communicate my feelings super well. And so I feel like Austin was kind of the first person that I'd ever met slash dated that, like, made me feel so safe to, like, feel whatever I was feeling, be wherever I was at. And just like how he is so non judgmental and just so, like, unconditional. Like, I just. I think it was like, maybe this, like, a few times into us hanging out that I told him about my relationship and all the stuff I was going through with the church. And like, I just kind of opened up about everything. And I'd never, like, done that with anybody before. And so.

Auz Engemann [00:42:02] And she was tormented. It was like bad, bad, bad, bad. Just in. In her head, just like shaming guilt just so much.

Ellee Duke [00:42:12] Yeah.

Guest [00:42:13] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [00:42:13] And so he, like, was kind of the person that helped me so much with that. And kind of I would be talking through these things and he'd be like, whoa. Like, you know, he kind of explained, like, okay, God isn't out to get you and, like, you're not being punished. And, like, he kind of was the first person to, like, hear how I was talk thoughts and be like, like an editor and, like, hold on, that's. There's actually another way you could think about this that, like, isn't going to make you feel so shitty about yourself. And, like, I never had anyone do that the way he did it for me before. And so, like, that immediately, like, I feel like we just became so close, like, emotionally, because. Yeah, like, I never really had somebody, like, bring that out of me and, like, make me feel so safe to just be exactly where I was at and not have to pretend that I was something I wasn't, you know? And.

John Dehlin [00:43:12] Yeah, and us, as we. As we think about where we left off with you, you would just. You would just sort of, like, really hit rock bottom in terms of your Adderall addiction. And was it a prayer that you had said, like, you had made a personal resolution, that you were done?

Auz Engemann [00:43:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:31] With that. And so you were coming off intense shame and, like, self disappointment as well.

Auz Engemann [00:43:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:39] And so, like, I don't want to call that trauma bonding, because the bonding was beautiful, but you both had had your own kind of versions of Mormon guilt and shame or trauma. And you. I don't know if that helped forge the early parts of your relationship, but it sounds like it may have. I don't want to project that, but that's what I'm seeing.

Ellee Duke [00:43:58] I don't feel like. I mean, I don't wanna speak for you. I don't feel like you had. I feel like you let go of a lot of, like, the shame about the Adderall.

Auz Engemann [00:44:10] Yeah, it was. How do I explain it? It's like I still had, like, I think a healthy mindset about just, like, life and God and, like, my relationship with God and, like, how all that worked. And, like, I think that that was just like a positive thing for me, but I still was tormented by these things and, like, partying and. And all this stuff. And then on top of that, like, the Adderall addiction, like, that was really, like, the super heavy thing. But I. I think just with my upbringing and just my mindset about life, like, I had just had a little bit more of like, a. Like a. Not as much of, like, a narrow perspective on, like, what makes a person good and what makes them not good and. But yeah, like, you are right. Like, at the same time, I had just gone through, like, this thing where I had really, like, made a strong resolution to stop doing it, and it was a powerful experience for me. So I felt like when she came into my life, it was like, honestly, like, I was being blessed because I had, like, really strongly committed, through prayer and flushing my Adderall down the toilet,

John Dehlin [00:45:09] that it was committed to what?

Auz Engemann [00:45:11] To stopping doing drugs.

John Dehlin [00:45:15] And what about, like, God in the church? What? Did you have any commitments there?

Ellee Duke [00:45:19] You were still very much.

Auz Engemann [00:45:20] I was still. Yeah, I was still.

John Dehlin [00:45:22] What I mean, though, is like, hey, Heavenly Father, I'm gonna, like, I'm gonna be that super good Mormon now. Was there any of that or not?

Auz Engemann [00:45:30] It wasn't as much as, like, I'm going to be a good Mormon. It's just like, I'm going to stop doing these things that I know aren't serving me and that, like. Yeah, like, I'm. I've been taught aren't the right things.

John Dehlin [00:45:41] Yeah.

Auz Engemann [00:45:41] If that helps.

Samantha Shelley [00:45:42] What?

John Dehlin [00:45:42] Yeah, but there's also the idea of, in my mind, of, like, getting on plan. Like, it's time to get on plan.

Auz Engemann [00:45:47] Yeah. Yeah, totally.

John Dehlin [00:45:48] Mormonism.

Auz Engemann [00:45:48] Totally.

John Dehlin [00:45:49] What's the plan? Yeah, what's the plan?

Auz Engemann [00:45:51] Totally.

John Dehlin [00:45:51] Tell the audience what the plan is. When I say get on plan, you're saying, totally. What? What. What is the plan? What's the Mormon plan?

Ellee Duke [00:45:59] Yeah, just get back on track so

Auz Engemann [00:46:01] you can be worthy to do all

Ellee Duke [00:46:03] the things and then be saved and. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:05] Get worthy to go to the temple. Get married in the temple. Get your eternal marriage. Was that. I don't want to. It sounds like I planted that. But was that it or not?

Auz Engemann [00:46:15] For me.

Ellee Duke [00:46:16] No, not for me at all.

Auz Engemann [00:46:17] I didn't.

Ellee Duke [00:46:17] I didn't want to get married in the temple. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:21] Let's talk about that.

Auz Engemann [00:46:21] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:46:22] Wait, can I ask a question for you? When you went to your bishop about having sex, you were still with that boyfriend at that time?

Ellee Duke [00:46:29] No.

Samantha Shelley [00:46:30] Oh, you'd already broken off. Okay, cool.

Ellee Duke [00:46:33] Do you mind if I. Because I. I just. This came up and I. It's just an interesting point. I think I remember, like, telling him, because I had told him about the bishop and I was going to a different ward, but he had told me that he had come in and told his bishop some things that he had done, and it was like, take the sacrament immediately. Like, you're good.

John Dehlin [00:46:54] Oh, so you had to wait a year.

Ellee Duke [00:46:57] So that was really hard. That was just confusing for me because I was kind of like, it's different situations, but also it just felt like this. This individual bias towards certain things. And I just felt really angry at

Auz Engemann [00:47:13] the time about that, and I was pissed I was pissed that this bishop, who didn't even know anything about Ellie could somehow just say, oh, you're restricted from doing these things for a year. When, like, he didn't even, like, really get to know, like, the full situation and who she was.

Ellee Duke [00:47:29] What made it worse was that I tried to explain those things, but it was almost like it didn't matter how it happened or like, any of the background. It was kind of just like, well, you committed this sin, so this is the punishment.

Auz Engemann [00:47:41] And then that gets into the whole idea of, like, bias of bishops and bishops. Experiences that shape the way that they give an individual, like, guidance or like, what they think is, like, the spirit telling them what to do. Like, it's just. It's so messy. And it's like one. Like, if she would have gone to a different bishop, the bishop could have said the exact same thing that he said to me. But this one bishop, like, was just the way he was.

John Dehlin [00:48:04] We call that Bishop Roulette in.

Auz Engemann [00:48:06] Yeah, 100. I've never heard that, but that's. That's perfect.

John Dehlin [00:48:09] It's called bishop Roulette. But also, this is not the first time I've heard women getting more severe punishments than men for the same sin.

Ellee Duke [00:48:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:21] Samantha's nodding your head and. And Ellie, you're nodding your head. Does that resonate?

Samantha Shelley [00:48:25] Bishops are always men.

John Dehlin [00:48:26] What?

Samantha Shelley [00:48:27] And bishops are always men.

John Dehlin [00:48:28] Yeah. And you hadn't. You hadn't gone to the temple, Ellie. You hadn't taken out your endowments yet. You hadn't served a mission, and you had to whatever extent you messed up after your mission. So according to Mormon doctrine, it for sure should have been you, us who got the more severe punishments, 100% because you were endowed returned missionary Melchizedek priesthood. And Ellie, you hadn't done any of that yet.

Auz Engemann [00:48:59] No, I was. I was pretty upset about. About this.

Ellee Duke [00:49:03] Yeah, it was. It was tough because I.

Auz Engemann [00:49:05] Because I saw the pain that it was causing her and just the mind f. Of just this whole process and it just, it was frustrating.

Ellee Duke [00:49:12] Well, when your whole identity is your worthiness in this religion, that was my entire identity. And so for that to be taken away and it's like, oh, you no longer are worthy. It was like my identity, I was just kind of like, I guess I'm just a bad. Like, I just. I didn't know how to cope with it.

John Dehlin [00:49:29] You're the chewed gum.

Auz Engemann [00:49:30] You're the moment where you're trying so hard to become that person that you

Ellee Duke [00:49:35] want and to have the courage to go in and Say, this is what I've done. I'm trying to. Trying to make amends, and I want to change or, you know, be forgiven. It was like. It just was. Yeah, it was just a really intense process for me.

Auz Engemann [00:49:48] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [00:49:48] So I. I would go through, you know, I. Because. And part of my repentance process was going to church every Sunday, which was kind of just like a reminder of my unworthiness. And so I would. It's like I could barely make it through sacrament without crying, like, every Sunday, because it was just. It was so. Just, like, deep for me. And so I think that I didn't want to get married. And, I mean, I had. Honestly, I just had never really wanted to get married.

Auz Engemann [00:50:16] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [00:50:16] Like I had said in the previous episode, I just. Because I felt like, okay, if I'm Mormon, then I'm probably gonna marry some guy that's, like, patriarchal and tries to tell me what to do and what to wear. And, like, I need to be more modest and I can't swear. And I. And, like, I just kind of had this idea, and everyone I dated was, like, not Mormon. And it was. It's, like, interesting looking back at that, because anyone I dated seriously was not a member. And it's like, that's a little weird because subconsciously, I think I was trying to find a way to kind of escape it in some way, you know? But, yeah, once we met and, like, we're dating and, like, we. I think. How long had we dated? Like, what, eight months? And we kind of started talking about getting married. Nine months.

Auz Engemann [00:51:02] I don't remember.

Samantha Shelley [00:51:03] We.

Auz Engemann [00:51:04] We really fell in love quick, and we were just like. Honestly, just, like, we created a super strong connection right off the bat, and we would have a super deep chat. Like, our first date, we literally, like, she came, like, got in and out and Talked to, like, 4 in the morning at her apartment. Just, like, talking, you know, just laughing and joking.

Ellee Duke [00:51:20] We had the same sense of humor. Like, just on every aspect. We were just. It was kind of just like, this is, like, weird. Like, yeah, I've never met someone that. I just feel like I have such a good connection. But also we see things really similarly. And he was like the first guy that was Mormon that I dated that wasn't like. Because I had dated a few. And, like, you were just, like, so chill, and you were kind of telling me, like, you know, to. To, like, you were trying to help

Auz Engemann [00:51:49] me a little bit about things.

Ellee Duke [00:51:50] And I was like, oh, I like that. Like, I like that someone is like, let your hair down, like, you know, it's like, everything will be okay. And yeah. And then in this whole time, I wasn't able to go to the temple or take the sacrament. And so for a lot of our relationship, like, I was just kind of dealing with that. And then I started going to a new ward and his bishop, I had met with him and he was just like, take the sacrament. He's like, you haven't been taking it this whole time. And I was like, no. And he's like, okay, just, you need to take it. Like, just take it. I hope you're just be taking it. And I. And then I was kind of like, it's that simple. Like, it was just like almost like laughable. Like, oh, just take it. You know, And I was like, it was just a weird situation, honestly. Anyways, so that kind of.

John Dehlin [00:52:44] That's like we have to pause there because like the amount of distress and shame and self loathing that that former bishop's punishment was causing you is. It's horrendous. It's abusive.

Ellee Duke [00:53:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:03] And to learn later that that's just. Oh, that's his approach. And then the new bishop's like, just take the sacrament. Like that. Oh, well, that's better. Oh, good, I'm glad you got out of it. But no, that makes it worse.

Ellee Duke [00:53:17] Yeah. Because I'm like, why did I just go through all that? Like really, it was just that easy. Yeah, it was interesting.

John Dehlin [00:53:26] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [00:53:26] But just.

John Dehlin [00:53:28] Samantha, you mentioned this, but the shame cycle that high demand religions put you through, they have, it's the bite model, behavior, information, thoughts and emotions. But they have strong behavioral controls that almost no one can meet. Whether it's dietary restrictions, clothing restrictions, or, or sexual restrictions. It's always going to be tied to things that everybody does. Eating, sex, and wear clothing. And they're going to get you with the shame. And then once they do, they catch you in that trap of self loathing that makes you feel awful about yourself and makes you feel like you need the church to be better. So they create the disease and then they offer you offer themselves as the cure to the disease that they created. And what that does is it binds your commitment to the church by giving you this awful punishment. Well, you're never going to disobey the church again. And that's when they get you. If they get you, you know, that's how they get you.

Samantha Shelley [00:54:37] Yeah. It's just disturbing how much control bishops have over people's identities. Because if you would have had a more chill bishop who was like, you

Ellee Duke [00:54:45] know, Go on your way.

Samantha Shelley [00:54:47] Don't do it again. Like, still love yourself. Jesus loves you. Like, how you viewed yourself would have been different, but, like, because you had such a harsh bishop and like, you said your whole identity was the church.

Ellee Duke [00:54:57] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:54:57] Then it's like he's like, holding your identity in his hands and has the power to like, determine whether you're going

Ellee Duke [00:55:02] to be like, well, I'm still a

Samantha Shelley [00:55:03] good person and like, Jesus still loves me versus, like, I suck. And for the next year I have to be socially shamed and.

Guest [00:55:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:13] I'm so sorry. And there's hundreds of thousands of Mormon youth and young adults that go through this every year.

Ellee Duke [00:55:20] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:24] And it. And it just. It just continues like year after year, and everyone's okay with it somehow. And the church doesn't fix it.

Ellee Duke [00:55:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:33] You know that the church relies. It's like the secret. It's like, not only do they not fix it, it's like their secret sauce of getting people on the shame spiral of unworthiness. That's how they bind people to the church.

Ellee Duke [00:55:48] Yeah.

Auz Engemann [00:55:49] Now I have a question for you. How much of that do you think is, like, malicious versus none? Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:56] No, these are from their perspective. From that bishop's perspective, it's like, oh, I'm gonna help her. I'm gonna help her become righteous and clean. And we want healthy living and so 0% pernicious. Yeah, they are. For their perspective, they're good men helping you repent, follow Jesus and get.

Ellee Duke [00:56:16] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:17] So that's what makes it so awful. It's this thing that gets kicked off and then it has a life. It's of its own.

Ellee Duke [00:56:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:23] And everybody's the hero in their own story.

Auz Engemann [00:56:25] That's what I think as well.

Ellee Duke [00:56:26] Yeah, yeah, totally. Oh, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:32] Well, I'm glad. I'm so glad you found each other.

Samantha Shelley [00:56:34] Yeah.

Auz Engemann [00:56:34] Oh, yeah, me too.

Ellee Duke [00:56:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:38] Was this the Huntington. Huntington beach singles ward in.

Ellee Duke [00:56:41] No, it was the Glendale.

John Dehlin [00:56:43] Okay.

Auz Engemann [00:56:43] Yeah, I was. I was in the Glendale.

Ellee Duke [00:56:45] I was in the LA first because I lived in West Hollywood at the time.

John Dehlin [00:56:48] Okay.

Samantha Shelley [00:56:48] Yeah, yeah.

Ellee Duke [00:56:49] But then I started going to his ward because he. His bishop. It was kind of known that his bishop was really chill.

Samantha Shelley [00:56:55] Great.

Ellee Duke [00:56:57] He is awesome. We love him. Yeah. Anyways, so where was I at?

John Dehlin [00:57:03] So you recorded for nine, eight, nine months.

Ellee Duke [00:57:06] Yeah, we were dating. I mean, dated for a year and a half and then we.

Auz Engemann [00:57:13] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [00:57:16] New Year's of 2019 or 2018. Yeah, 2018.

Auz Engemann [00:57:23] Yep.

Ellee Duke [00:57:25] We were at Joshua Tree camping with some friends. And for New Year's and as we were driving back, I, like, got a text from my mom that my uncle was missing. And my uncle, just for context, he is my mom's younger brother. Not the youngest, but, like the second youngest brother. And, like, from a pretty young age, I think it was like high school, like, knew he was gay. And kind of the story of, you know, going on a mission and trying to do the trade of, like, if I go on a mission, God will take these feelings away from me and then I'll be able to get married and, like, do all the things that I'm supposed to do as a straight male Mormon member. And he didn't, like, want to be gay. Like, went through a lot of, like, really hard, challenging struggles with that and had attempted suicide prior, I think, one or two times in his life. And yeah. Just never felt like he was whole because of this. And in my family, like, I didn't even know about any of this until I was probably in high school. And even then, like, even when it was talked about, it was like, okay, like, it was very. Just like kind of this secret that, like, everybody knew, but nobody talked about. Nobody was, like, open about it.

John Dehlin [00:59:07] And you knew he was gay.

Ellee Duke [00:59:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:09] Okay.

Ellee Duke [00:59:10] But it was like no one, it was. It's just this, like, unspoken kind of thing, but no one really acknowledged it ever.

John Dehlin [00:59:16] It's like erasure. It's just like these people.

Auz Engemann [00:59:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:19] Don't exist. Because you don't. Is a Mormon culture. We don't know what to do with gay people.

Ellee Duke [00:59:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:24] So you just pretend they don't exist and. Right.

Ellee Duke [00:59:27] Or just pretend that it's not. They don't feel that way. Really. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:31] Or that they're not gay.

Auz Engemann [00:59:32] Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:59:33] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [00:59:33] Yeah. Okay. And so, you know, I'm still very young when I'm like, finding out about this. And he, you know, he was like, much older than me and. But I was close to him. He gave me my 12 string Martin guitar that I still have hanging in my studio and we played guitar together. He wrote songs. He was like, so into music and, like, was just like one of my biggest fans, like, would just always message me and want to hear new songs. When I moved to Nashville and was always asking my mom, like, how I was doing. And I think in a way, like, I was kind of living his dream in a sense, because he loved music and had kind of always wanted to do that, but just, I just think never knew how. And so it was like I kind of gave him this hope of, like, oh, she's doing it, you know, and so yeah, I got this text from my mom on New Year's and it was just like, uncle Brian's missing, like he doesn't have his phone, like no one knows where he is. And he told my grandparents that he was going to be at a friend's house and he told his friends he's gonna be at my grandparents house.

John Dehlin [01:00:38] How old was he at the time? About.

Ellee Duke [01:00:41] He was in his 40s.

John Dehlin [01:00:45] 40s, yeah.

Ellee Duke [01:00:49] And so I remember like messaging him on Facebook or like I. Because I couldn't text get through on text and I was just like frantically like, oh my gosh, like this is not happening. And then a couple days later, the police found him in a hotel room in Salt lake and he'd OD'd and was gone. And. Sorry, it's kind of hard for me to talk about sometimes. It's. It doesn't come up as much.

Auz Engemann [01:01:31] But.

Ellee Duke [01:01:35] Yeah, that honestly changed my life. Like I was never the same after that happened. And I don't know how anyone could be, you know, because your whole reality like just crumbles and like falls apart and everything you think, you know, you just don't anymore. And what was like really devastating was at his funeral I sang and I couldn't even make it through the song, but a lot of his friends got up and like spoke about him, you know, marching in the parade. And I think I know for a fact that the, the thing that. Because he had tried really hard to kind of stay in the church and he had tried to stay celibate and he tried really hard to kind of live this life, you know, to still kind of make it after and not act on his feelings and his. For his friends that he, you know, were like his family that like knew him truly for like just him got up and spoke at his funeral and like were very open about him and how he felt about things. And like, I know with the church passing, the thing about gay kid or kids whose parents are gay, not being able to be baptized was kind of the last straw for him from what I kind of gathered.

John Dehlin [01:02:57] So that was the November 15th policy.

Ellee Duke [01:03:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:01] Where the church makes same sex marriage grounds for immediate excommunication and apostasy.

Auz Engemann [01:03:10] Or the kids.

Ellee Duke [01:03:11] The kids.

Auz Engemann [01:03:12] And then the kids of gay parents can't be baptized till they're 18.

John Dehlin [01:03:16] Yeah. The exclusion policies where they can't get baptized, they can't go through the ranks of the priesthood for men and they have to denounce. If they want to join the church at 18, they had to denounce Their parents, their gay parents, their marriage before they could get baptized. It was a really dark day.

Ellee Duke [01:03:33] Yeah. And we even struggled with that. I mean, a lot.

Auz Engemann [01:03:35] That's part of the story.

Ellee Duke [01:03:36] Yeah, that's part of the story for sure. But so anyways, just, I. I know that that was just a huge thing for him, as obviously it would be. And there was people in, like, there at the funeral that were, like, very upset and, like, offended by, like, his friends being so open and, like, real about him. And that really upset me. And, like, just. Honestly, it just made me feel like a. This is not how God would view this, in my opinion. And I don't feel God here. And I. I just. Yeah, it was just a really tough time where I. Nothing really made sense. And I.

LGBTQ Family Members and Shifting Church Views

John Dehlin [01:04:18] What had you been taught that God felt about gay people? And then what did you feel God felt about gay people? Well, talk about the discrepancy.

Ellee Duke [01:04:30] Had been taught that, like, God still loves them, but, like, doesn't condone their. Them acting on gay feelings. Same sex, attraction, whatnot. And me having now lived in Nashville, Louisiana, One of my really close friends is gay. And I had been, you know, obviously la. There's so many people there that are part of lgbtq and so many that I had become so close to. And so it's this very conflicting thing where even when I did end up getting my recommend back and they asked me about that, I was just like, if any of my gay friends get married, I'm gonna go and I'll march in the parade. So if you don't want to give me the recommend for that, like, don't, because I'm gonna do it. You know, like, I was very much like. And my uncle. And that happening with my uncle also just. Yeah, it's just like, you. You never think that's going to be your family until it is. You know, you, like, hear about it happening and you see that it happens to other people and then it happens to your family, and it's just like this. What? Like, it's just this.

Samantha Shelley [01:05:44] It's just.

Ellee Duke [01:05:45] Yeah, it's a really. It's a really intense thing to go through. And. Yeah. Just trying to wrap your head around, if God created everybody and God doesn't make mistakes and somebody's gay, what, like, how do you. How do you explain that? How do you explain that God created them that way, then how would he not want them to find love and be happy just like anybody else? And that was really. I just. I. For me, I just. I couldn't really find Any closure with that perspective, the church's perspective on it.

John Dehlin [01:06:27] Oftentimes, Mormon apologists will try and say, well, suicide's complex. Death by suicide's complex. It's multidimensional. And they'll say, you know, the altitude. It may be the altitude, or it may be other factors that aren't related, but there's a real desire amongst apologists for the church to say that when a gay Mormon dies by suicide, it's not really tied to the church. Do you have a opinion about whether it was in the case?

Ellee Duke [01:07:00] I know for a fact that it was because of his suicide note.

Samantha Shelley [01:07:04] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [01:07:05] It very explicitly, like, said things about the church and the life after and how that was all kind of gonna go because of how he was.

Samantha Shelley [01:07:18] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [01:07:19] So I know that was a very large part of it, for sure. Yeah.

Guest [01:07:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:28] I'm so sorry.

Ellee Duke [01:07:29] Yeah. It's all right. I believe that he's in a better place, and.

Samantha Shelley [01:07:39] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [01:07:39] I mean, I don't know for sure, but I believe that he is and that he's at peace now with, like, that whole dark time of his life. And I hope that he is, you know. Yeah. So. Yeah. That was right before we got engaged.

Auz Engemann [01:07:58] Yep.

Ellee Duke [01:07:59] Like a month.

Auz Engemann [01:07:59] Three weeks.

Samantha Shelley [01:08:00] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [01:08:01] Month before.

Samantha Shelley [01:08:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:06] Were you saying that you never looked at the church. The church the same way again, or the church's LGBTQ policies the same way again?

Ellee Duke [01:08:14] I would say, like, initially the policy, but I think it was. It was just still really hard for me to, like, even want to get my temple recommend back at that point. Like, I kind of just. I don't know, I just. I started to, like, lose. Yeah. My faith. Like, I just kind of. I just didn't know how to make sense of everything that was happening. And also with my experience with my. The relationship and the shame and this whole process, and then my uncle, and it was kind of just thing after thing where I just, like. It just wasn't enough for me anymore. It didn't make me feel good anymore. It was kind of this place where I just felt a lot of trauma and, like, pain, and just being there would kind of bring up these emotions for me that I didn't know how to deal with. And nobody would talk about it, and nobody would. Would be angry with me or, like. I think it was kind of like, oh, well, let's not equate this to abcd, like you were saying about apologists or whatever. And I think that was just hard for me. Yeah. So I wanted to marry Austin, and that was, like, something that I definitely knew that I wanted to be with him, and I didn't want to get married in the temple, and I. I didn't feel ready. But we also. It was such a tough, sensitive time. And after this happened with my uncle, right as I'm kind of trying to

Guest [01:09:43] get back

Ellee Duke [01:09:45] in the church, I get a letter from some members in my family that just was, like, very, very hurtful and just kind of talking about my social media presence and me wearing certain things and not being a good example. And they're really concerned about my worthiness and how I'm representing the family. And there was just like, all these things in this letter that just kind of came out of nowhere and just kind of ripped me apart as a person.

Auz Engemann [01:10:17] And mind you, these things, like the social media posts and whatever, and what she was wearing was, like, the most tame things.

Ellee Duke [01:10:23] Maybe a bikini. Maybe I said damn or hell yeah in an Instagram story. I don't really know.

John Dehlin [01:10:28] I mean, showing your shoulders can be enough to be a scandal in orthodox Mormonism.

Ellee Duke [01:10:33] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:34] Am I wrong?

Auz Engemann [01:10:35] No.

Ellee Duke [01:10:35] No. Yeah. So that kind of came up, you know, shortly after this thing with my uncle, and it was that same side of the family that. That, you know, was my mom's side, and that was. I mean, here I am, like, literally trying so hard to get my temple recommend back, and then I get this letter, and this just happened with my uncle, and I'm just kind of like, are you kidding me? And so that just created, you know, some problems, like, I guess with,

Samantha Shelley [01:11:07] I

Ellee Duke [01:11:07] think, part of me, like, my ego, to be totally honest, like, I kind of felt like, oh, I'm gonna prove you guys wrong. Like, I'm gonna show you that I actually am, like, a really good member and I am worthy. And so, like, part of my ego, I think, felt like, you need to. Like, I didn't want to get married in the temple, and you knew that. And we talked about maybe just doing, like, a normal, like, civil wedding, but we also just didn't want the drama if we didn't, or people making assumptions. And it was kind of just kind of feel like the last thing we need is, like, all these other people people's opinions or just this kind of judgment if we didn't do it this way that we felt like we should.

Auz Engemann [01:11:48] Well, yeah. And I had always wanted to get married in the temple, even at that time. Right. And so I'm worth where my mindset was that I was just trying to be supportive and helpful, and, like, I truly believe that, like, going that route would be Something that would be helpful. Right. And so I was trying to get

Ellee Duke [01:12:04] married in the temple.

Auz Engemann [01:12:04] Yeah. And so, like, I was trying to be encouraging, and it was never anything that caused conflict between us, but I was just trying to be helpful to her. And, like, I think you said the other day, like, you were also just trying to put your best foot forward and, like.

Ellee Duke [01:12:14] Yeah. And I had kind of gotten to this point where I was like, okay, maybe this is exactly what I need. Maybe, like, making this commitment and this next step is exactly what I need to kind of make all these things feel better and, like, make my career get better and how I feel about myself. And everyone talks about the promises of the temple and, like, all the blessings and. And it's just, like, you can't even comprehend all of it. And so I kind of had this, like, romantic. Romanticization about going through and, like, once again, sort of the trade off of, like, okay, if I do this, then all my problems will be solved, and, like, I'll be able to get through this and, like, be okay, you know? And so I just kind of pulled up my bootstraps and was like, okay. And so I finally got my recommend back. And I got. I took out my endowment, like, very shortly after getting my recommend back, after literally not having it for a year. And then just, like, a lot.

Auz Engemann [01:13:18] It's just a lot.

Ellee Duke [01:13:18] Yeah. And then a couple months, like, you know, really, like, we got married.

Guest [01:13:23] Yeah.

Auz Engemann [01:13:23] In Salt Lake Temple.

Samantha Shelley [01:13:25] What did you think of the endowment?

Ellee Duke [01:13:28] I. I was so, like, hopeful that, like, I would feel different, that I was, like, I didn't really feel anything. I. I felt kind of weird, and, like, I didn't really know what was going on, but I just kind of kept telling myself, like, this is. This is what you need. Just, like, just trust. Just trust it and have faith that this is all gonna. Like, it's all going to work out somehow, and just, like, keep trying to have faith in it. So that was. I just kind of tried to put away everything else and just sort of move on in, like, faith with. With all of it, you know? And so we went on our honeymoon and, like, came back, and I'm also, like, I'm someone that, like, expresses myself a lot through clothing. And so to suddenly have garments and, like, all these restrictions with all, like, so many of my outfits and so many of my performance outfits and, like, all these things that I had worn. I don't think I completely registered, like, how big of a change that would be as a girl and also living in California and, like, the fashion there. And, like, it's just such a huge part of being an artist and a creative is like, how you look and how you dress. And so I kind of just felt like this whole part of me was like, gone. Like, I just was like, how do I be myself, but I have these restrictions and how does this all kind of work? And so I was, like, fighting that a lot. But I was just trying to believe, like, if I just. If I just do it, then, like, everything will. I'll be blessed. I'll be blessed. And that's just like, what I kept telling myself. And I just. I very quickly just got crazy depressed. Just really, really depressed because it didn't fix anything.

Auz Engemann [01:15:25] I mean, there was just so much internal conflict. Yeah.

Ellee Duke [01:15:28] And it's like, we did it and we, you know, did all the things. And I just. My mindset at the time was like, oh, well, this is supposed to help me in some way. And I think emotionally and mentally and like, when that didn't happen, it was just like, once again turning on myself of like, okay, what. What else do I need to do? And, like, maybe I should get a calling. And it was like, you know, and people at church asking us when we're gonna have kids. And like, it was just. I just kind of felt like I woke up in this life for myself that I just did not, like, recognize or feel connected to at all anymore. And I just didn't know why I was even doing it almost because it just. It felt like this just reaching for, like, the next thing that would make me blessed or take me to happiness or peace, but, like, I could never quite get there. And it was just this, like, endure, endure, endure, endure, endure through all this stuff. And it's like I never felt relief. Like, it was just this never ending heaviness that, like, I could not get rid of. Even going to the temple, I was worthy. I. I did everything. We were worthy. Like, we prepared. Like, it's like in the Mormon handbook of, like, worthiness. And if going to the temple should make you feel abc, if you're living ABC did not work. It didn't, like, equate. And I think I was just like, what is wrong with me? And I would see it working for my friends. I'd see my friends getting married in the temple or my. Or making my family so happy or whoever. And I would just be like, why is this not working for me? Like, it's working for them and they're happy and, like, having good things happen. And like, from what you could tell you know, and it's like, I just. That just was not how it was happening for me. And so I spent a good, like, six months, like, going to the temple. I went to church. I would go to church every Sunday. Not every Sunday, but I was trying to go as much as I could. And, like, every time I would go, I would feel like, okay, God, like, give me a sign. Just the tiniest. Like, whatever it is, like, just if this is where I'm supposed to be, just like, tell me in some teeny, tiny, tiny way. And I did that for, like, six months. And I had just radio silence. I didn't hear anything. I didn't get an answer. I didn't. And I was like. It was just such a dark time in my life because I just. I just could not figure out what to do. Why couldn't get. Get like, a revelation or a connection or. And then it's like. And then I would go into these cycles of, like, maybe I haven't been forgiven for having sex before marriage. Maybe it's because I wore a bikini. Maybe it is because I drank coffee that one time. Or it's like I would. Maybe it's because I didn't wear my garments the other day when I went to the studio where I had a show. And it's like I would just go in these cycles over and over and over again. And eventually, like, I kind of just. We had like, this big conversation and he was just like, just step away. Like, just don't go. Like, if it's making you feel like, this bad, like, maybe it's good if you just, like, take a break and, like, don't wear your garments.

Auz Engemann [01:18:54] Like, just see what happens.

Ellee Duke [01:18:55] Yeah, just like, see how you feel. And it was like, yeah, it wasn't like, day and night, but I definitely. The first couple months of just sort of giving myself a break and just kind of like stripping everything down to just, like, just do your best today. Just try to have a good day. And like, that's it, you know? Just like, best foot forward and just strip it back to the bear down. Like. Or bare basics of just. You're, like, just trying to connect with God in some way, whatever that looks like. Even if it's just through music or hiking or the beach or whatever, like, just try to find where that is for you. And that was like, the first time that I felt any kind of peace or, like, solace or relief in year. Like, literally years. Like, years and years and years.

Auz Engemann [01:19:58] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [01:20:00] And so I didn't ever go back. That's not the end. But yeah, I want to.

John Dehlin [01:20:08] I want to switch to Oz and ask him some questions. But I just. Gerardo made one of the most brilliant observations I've ever heard on Mormon stories, and I want to repeat it as many times as I can. So many people know that Joseph Smith, before he was ever wrote the Book of Mormon or started the church. He was a scryer or a paper where he would tell people he could find buried treasure and he would take them on treasure digs. And so he'd say, hey, come on, pay me, follow me, come on the treasure dig. I'll help you find the treasure. He'd take him to the point of the treasure, allegedly. He'd have them dig and then they dig, dig, dig, dig, dig. They get down to the bottom and then as soon as allegedly they were going to hit the treasure, he would tell them that the treasure slipped away and, oh, it's their fault, they did something wrong. That's a perfect metaphor for the plan of happiness or for the. The covenant path is they put you on it and they tell you there's a treasure and they tell you if you just follow them, they're going to help you find the treasure. And you follow and you follow and you follow and you dig and you dig and you dig to get the treasure. And then when it doesn't come, what do they tell you?

Ellee Duke [01:21:26] It's your fault.

John Dehlin [01:21:28] And with both with Joseph Smith and with you and with others, when you tell someone it's their fault that they didn't receive the treasure, it makes them more committed to keep following. And that's how it works.

Samantha Shelley [01:21:45] Like when the end of the world doesn't happen in a cult and people get more dedicated to the cult because they're blamed.

John Dehlin [01:21:52] They're blamed for the reason why Jesus didn't come. And then they're more committed. This happened in the FLDS church when Warren Jeffs predicted the end of, you know, Jesus was going to come and just watch that everyone got ready, everyone moved people around the street.

Samantha Shelley [01:22:05] Sweet in a bay.

John Dehlin [01:22:06] What's that?

Ellee Duke [01:22:07] Have you ever seen.

John Dehlin [01:22:08] Yeah, keep sweet.

Auz Engemann [01:22:09] It's crazy.

John Dehlin [01:22:10] Yeah, but you were on the. You were on the hamster wheel of hustling for righteousness and hustling for joy, pursuing something that was never there in the first place.

Ellee Duke [01:22:22] Yeah. At least for me.

John Dehlin [01:22:24] And how'd you find joy?

Ellee Duke [01:22:28] By just stop stopping digging,

John Dehlin [01:22:34] stepping off the covenant path. I say that in air quotes. Is where you found joy.

Auz Engemann [01:22:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:22:40] And yet they'll teach you wickedness never was wickedness Never was happiness, Wickedness, of course, is leaving the covenant path yet. How did you find joy?

Ellee Duke [01:22:52] Yeah, by just finding my own path.

Samantha Shelley [01:22:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:22:56] And then they'll say, well, that's not real joy.

Ellee Duke [01:22:59] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:23:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:23:02] What would you say? I mean, we're jumping ahead, but I like my joy.

Ellee Duke [01:23:07] Like, I like my version of it.

John Dehlin [01:23:09] Did you get better? Did you start? You said you. It was the first time you felt peace in years.

Ellee Duke [01:23:15] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, just relief. I feel like I could breathe. Like, I felt like I would just. There was like a thousand pounds off of me, but it still took me. I mean, it. Honestly, it wasn't even until probably last year that I. That my thinking and the fear mindset that I had so deeply has, like, really, like, I've gotten it under control because, like, I've had to work so hard for a really long time to change that because I ingrained. It was so ingrained in me. Yeah. And it's like I was, you know, the church was my entire identity for, like, most of my entire life. And so when I lost that, you know, it was like, yes, I felt better, but it was also suddenly like, who am I now? And what's the purpose in my music? Like, I would. I went through these depression point, like, periods of depression of, like, how do I do this now? Because my.

John Dehlin [01:24:17] Why.

Ellee Duke [01:24:18] My whole. Why was becoming this example of the Mormon Church, and I just left, you know, and it was like, like, well, what. How do. What do I do? And. And is it even. Is there even a point to try and do it now if I don't have some, like, grand, you know, thing that's underneath me and bigger than myself? And it's like, I. I never felt like just me being honest and like, being myself was enough. Like, that was never enough. It always had to be attached to this religion or this higher thing and this belief. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I just think it can be a slippery slope because you just. When things don't work out, then what. Then what does it all mean? You know? And that's exactly what I went through. And it. It's like that all fell apart. And then I was there with all the pieces, and I was just like, okay, well, what now? You know? And so the last, I would say three and a half years is like, has been me trying to, you know, take all those pieces and build something new, you know,

John Dehlin [01:25:34] so, Oz, you know, well, you both were raised by faithful parents, but Oz, you know, you had. Had the. You had served a Mission. You have faithful parents, and you. Right before meeting Ellie, this was like, your recommitment to the gospel. And then you meet her and you get married in the temple. And it's supposed to be storybook Mormon ending. Right. So what was it like for you to kind of reach that goal of temple marriage, find the love of your life, be on the covenant path? And then to see her, were you having your own parallel journey and. Or what was it like to see her struggling?

Leaving the Church and the Weight of Doubt

Auz Engemann [01:26:18] Yeah. So I can tell you about my parallel journey because we kind of both came to some conclusions about not being in the church separately. Like, it wasn't even something that we really, like, did together.

Ellee Duke [01:26:35] Yeah, no, I mean, we were kind of on our own.

Auz Engemann [01:26:37] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [01:26:37] Timelines.

Auz Engemann [01:26:38] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ellee Duke [01:26:39] And when I had said. When he had said to me, like, just don't go. You know, just kind of step away and see how you feel. Like, I was very much like, I'm so supportive of you still going and being active. And, like, I want you to know I'm, like, I'm fully behind that. I just. I just got to do what I need to do to be a healthier person.

Auz Engemann [01:26:56] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, like, listen, I never thought life was gonna be, like, easy after the temple. Like, I wasn't that naive, right. But, yeah, I was just, like, it felt good. It's, like, cool. Like, I've done the highest ordinance, right? And now, like, not that it's smooth sailing, but it's like, we just gotta live our lives now, right?

John Dehlin [01:27:21] So there's actually one higher ordinance, but that's another podcast.

Samantha Shelley [01:27:24] Oh, wow.

Ellee Duke [01:27:25] Okay.

Auz Engemann [01:27:28] So anyway, yeah, it was honestly, like, from the time we started dating till, like, the. With. Through the first year, like, it was. It was hard. And it was mostly hard because she was going through so much pain, and I loved her so much, and, like, watching her go through it when. When I had just such a vastly different mindset about life and how it works and about even the church. Like.

Ellee Duke [01:27:54] Yeah. Just so.

Auz Engemann [01:27:55] Just so different.

Ellee Duke [01:27:57] Opposite.

Auz Engemann [01:27:57] So opposite.

Ellee Duke [01:27:58] Yeah.

Auz Engemann [01:27:58] And. And there were times where it was just, like. It was. It was never frustrating because it was all just love, but it was, like, confusing to me. Like, you know how it was just so heavy just because that wasn't my experience. Right. So I had to practice just, like, a ton of empathy, and it brought us closer. Right. Because I had to step outside myself and see things, like, through her perspective and what she was going through. And it was super, super, super hard.

Ellee Duke [01:28:26] Yeah.

Auz Engemann [01:28:27] Like, she was just going through so much pain and it like. And it wasn't just her that, like, I was about to say it, you know, like, we had our fair share of, you know, fights and problems and stuff, but. Yeah, well, we were both just trying to figure it out and, like, we're just newly married.

Guest [01:28:41] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [01:28:41] It's like margin of itself is, like,

Auz Engemann [01:28:43] hard on its own.

Ellee Duke [01:28:44] Right. It's like this whole. You have, like, a mirror to yourself through this other person. And that's all new experiences and emotions and feelings and this new set of a dynamic. And it was like all of these things kind of at one time just erupting.

Auz Engemann [01:29:00] It was a lot, but it never felt like anything that, like, I didn't want to do, you know, it was always just like, this is my person and, like, we're just gonna figure it out, right? But, yeah, seeing her go through the pain and then just like, I had no problem being like, just step away. Just like, if it's causing this much torment. Yeah. Just like, stop. Like, if it's like, you shouldn't be living your life this way. It's not healthy. It's not a healthy way to just be a human. Right. So, like, just have a way and see. So, yeah, that was super hard just watching, like, all the pain that she was going through. And I was still, you know, like, in the church and. And going to church each Sunday. And like, it was just. It was just weird. I don't know. It was just weird. But. But as far as, like, my kind of parallel journey goes, I had a catalyst that made me just kind of like, take a step back and look at everything. And that was when we were dating. They made the policy about the children of gay parents, which we've discussed, and they can't be baptized or go through the priesthood or things until they're 18. And I remember we were dating and we even talked about it and like, I. It was a big moment for me where I was like, this doesn't really make sense. And it's not like, it just feels strange that this is going on. And I was like, I just have to think about this. I just have to, like, really think about this and take some time to see if, like, I vibe with this. And after a lot of thought, I was like, okay, like, I've trusted the prophet in the past. God's ways are higher than my ways. It might not be something I fully understand, but I'm just going to put my trust in God and in the prophet that this is the right thing. Right? And that was like, a really big thing. For me, I never really had that big of an experience where I. Where I put that much time and thought into, like, is this something that I'm gonna, like, be okay with? And I decided, yeah, okay. I'm just trusting. And we get married, and a year later, after the. After they made that policy, they redacted it.

John Dehlin [01:31:20] May have been two years, but they definitely.

Auz Engemann [01:31:22] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:31:23] They rescinded it.

Auz Engemann [01:31:24] Yeah. Yep.

John Dehlin [01:31:24] Yeah.

Auz Engemann [01:31:25] So. And I think it was within the first year of our marriage. Yeah, it definitely was.

Ellee Duke [01:31:28] Yeah, it was.

John Dehlin [01:31:29] And I think it was 17 when they redacted it. Okay.

Auz Engemann [01:31:34] I thought it was maybe 18, but.

John Dehlin [01:31:35] Oh, maybe. Maybe. Yeah.

Auz Engemann [01:31:37] I could be wrong, but I just felt like. And so many people were upset, and so many people left the church, and, like, it just caused so much pain and so much. Like, not only did people leave and were upset when they instated it, but then when they redacted it, more people. Right. And it's just like, oh, I'm totally.

John Dehlin [01:31:58] It's 19. It was 20. 19 that they were.

Ellee Duke [01:32:00] Yeah. So it was a year after we were.

Auz Engemann [01:32:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:32:03] Yeah.

Auz Engemann [01:32:04] So I just.

John Dehlin [01:32:05] I. I know it sounds pedantic, but I just want people to know the history.

Auz Engemann [01:32:08] So, yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:32:09] November 2015, they implement the exclusion policy. Russell M. Nelson doubles down as an apostle, not yet as prophet. Right. And says it's doctrine. Right. Bears testimony of it as doctrine. Wasn't Monson prophet at the time?

Auz Engemann [01:32:26] I think so.

John Dehlin [01:32:27] And then there's so much backlash that, like, within four years, something that they're testifying is revelation. Something that they're testifying is doctrine. Something that contributed to how many deaths by suicide? How many people leaving the church?

Auz Engemann [01:32:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:32:44] Then the church leaders just turn around and say, never mind it. We're reversing it. Yeah. That's what you're talking about.

Ellee Duke [01:32:51] Yep.

Auz Engemann [01:32:51] So that. So when they redacted it, I was just like, what was the point? What was that for? All this pain, all, like you said, this Suez, these suicides, these, like, just people leaving the church. Like, just so much contention and confusion and sadness. Like, why? And then on top of that, like, there didn't feel like there was any responsibility taken. It was just like, well, that just is what God wanted for that period of time. At least that's how it felt. Right. Like, there was just no accountability for it. And that was. That just made me, like, just feel gross. And so from there, that was when they redacted it. That was when I was like. That was the catalyst to me being like, what. What's going on here? Right. And what, what, like, what do I actually believe here? And so I just started thinking about life and religion and my experience in the church and just like, just kind of reevaluating everything from the backdrop also of, like, all of my experiences traveling and seeing people around the world with different religions and cultures and, like, them being happy and like, And I was just like, do any of us even, like, really know? Like, can any of us actually say? Because, you know, you bear your testimony in church and you're like, I know the church is true and we use the word no, but it's like, no, you don't. You believe it, and that's fine. You can believe whatever you want and good on you, you know, Believe whatever you want. I don't care. But you don't know, right? And, and then I was like. And every religion, for the most part, says they know or believes that they're the right one, right? So in my mind, it's just like, man, it's just this big, like, ego thing. And, and that's not necessarily an ego thing of, like, a pride thing. It could even just be like a fear thing, right? Like, it's like we're all just scared. And, like, did we just create religion? Because we're all just afraid to die and we're afraid, you know what I mean? Like, all these thoughts are just coming to me and I'm just like, okay, what do I actually believe? So I just stripped down everything. I was just like, take it all away, all down to zero. I don't believe anything. What do, what do I actually believe? And what I actually believe, and still this is what I believe to this day, is that there's a higher power. I choose to believe that, and I find meaning in that. But that's as far as I got. You know what I mean?

John Dehlin [01:35:36] There's that small matter of Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, doctrine and covenants, like, one true church, Prophets, priesthood authority, temples, like eternal families, three degrees of glory. What about that?

Auz Engemann [01:35:48] Yeah, it was just like, I don't know. I can't stand here and say I know that. But I, I, I'm choosing to believe that there's a God because I've, I've. It's just something that just feels right and makes sense to me about the world, and I could be wrong, right? But that's, that's what I'm choosing to believe. I think at the end of the day, we all choose what we believe, and we all choose what things mean to us. And that's just what I felt very strongly about. And. Right. Like I said to this day, like, that's really as far as I've gotten. And like, it's weird taking away everything that you believe that you know. Right. And there are times where I'm like, man, and I'm very comfortable just like kind of not knowing, but like choosing to believe that there's, there's a higher power or God or whatever. And I have my moments where I'm like, man, maybe someday I'm just gonna have this crazy, massive existential crisis where I just like, just like, I don't know, just like freak out with all this because I was raised with such a structured religion. Right. But like, it's just what feels good to me. And like I, I don't really ever see myself being part of a religion again just because I would just see it from this perspective where we're all just here just trying to figure it out. And if there is something, it's probably just one thing. And we all just come down here and we're scared and we try to make up these stories about like things to make our life make sense. And at the end of the day, I think we're all just trying to get to the same thing and we're all pointing to the same thing, but we have just have different ways of doing it. And so I just believe that try to be a good person, love people, serve people. And I think that the church teaches a lot of these things that are great. Right. Like, I don't look back on my time in the church as anything bad. Like I think that it taught me a lot of wonderful things.

Ellee Duke [01:37:41] Yeah.

Auz Engemann [01:37:43] But I think I just got everything that I could out of it and it was time to move on to something different.

John Dehlin [01:37:51] But there's the matter of your parents and your siblings, your siblings and extended family and cousins and aunts and uncles and grandparents. It's a non trivial thing to leave a religion like Mormonism and many people that potential adversity alone is enough to just make them lie and hide and fake it and stay in it because they don't want to face, you know. How did you guys deal with disappointing pretty much everyone except your brother?

Samantha Shelley [01:38:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:27] And your uncle who. I mean, I want to be glib, but like.

Ellee Duke [01:38:29] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh man.

Auz Engemann [01:38:34] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [01:38:34] I mean, I, like, I just called my mom one day. Like it was shortly after, I think I had decided to just like step away. And something I found like that for me just, I think was really helpful was like I was seeing a therapist for a Period of time. And she had kind of. We had kind of talked through me talking to my family about these things, and something that she kind of helped me with was, like, when you just, like, own how you feel somewhere, like, when you own your feelings, people. People can try to fault you for that, but it's a lot harder to. And so she was kind of just, like, you know, the more you can just kind of own how you feel, it's hard for people to kind of fault you and judge you because, I mean, even though we still do as humans because we're imperfect, but, like. So when I talk to my mom, like, I basically just. And, like, she had seen me go through that relationship. I'd obviously called my parents when that all of that was going on. My uncle, like, there was just, like, a lot of things that I think had happened that I don't want to say could, like, justify somebody leaving, but I think just made it harder for someone to, like, fight to keep you there with, like, you know, the history. But, yeah, I was just super honest, and I was just like, mom, like, I have been super depressed, and, like, I don't feel like I'm a healthy person. Like, I'm. I'm feeling no, like, pull to anything in my life, and I just. I'm having, like, suicidal thoughts, and I, like, don't want to be here, and I just, like, don't know the purpose of anything. And I think I just need to, like, be really honest with you and with myself that, like, I'm really struggling and I don't really know what to do. But I know very strongly that, like, I need to, like, step away from the church right now because it's just. It's not somewhere that is making me feel okay. And she was just like. I mean, yeah, she was just like. Well, I mean, I obviously don't want you to be depressed, and I obviously don't want you to be, like, feeling and thinking these things. So, you know, like, if that's what you need to do, like, that's what you need to do. And she was really supportive of it.

Guest [01:40:58] And.

John Dehlin [01:40:59] Wow.

Ellee Duke [01:40:59] My brother, you know, at that point, he left, like, years prior and, like, was. He's never gone back. So I think, like, he took the brunt of that, I'm sure. And, you know, my parents just have had to just, like, love him and accept him where he's at and as we all have. And I always had, you know, and so, yeah, like, I think it's more of my extended family that I've had some, like, you know, friction with. And I think also they. They don't know me, and they don't really know what I've been through. And so it's easy to kind of place judgment or assume things when you haven't talked to someone or ask them how they're doing, you know, so. Yeah, yeah, but it was hard. I mean, I definitely still had, I think, for me, too, like, having this. This following on social media to an extent, because I was Mormon, and all these people that were Mormon that were following me, and they knew I got married in the temple. And then as soon as I, you know, after a period of time, I started posting things that, like, maybe I clearly wasn't wearing garments or just things where maybe people would think, oh, is she still active? And I would get messages, like, a lot that were like, why aren't you wearing garments? Why aren't you at church today? Like, are you in Austin still married? Are you guys. Did you guys get married in the temple? Like, was that real? Like, just people, like, judging me that people I don't even know that I've never even talked to. And I think for me, like, that was also scary because I did lose, like, a lot of followers, and I started to lose this kind of community or support system that I kind of felt, I think hugely had followed me because I aligned with the things that they believed, which obviously, yeah, makes sense. And then as soon as I didn't, it was like I just lost a lot of people, you know, And I think that was hard because I felt like, yeah, just it. It's like a feeling of rejection, and you just kind of feel like, man, like, no one actually liked me. For me, it was kind of just this idea of me that people had, which is okay because I've done that, too with people. So it's all good. But, yeah, definitely tough. Definitely friendships were affected by it and just kind of losing touch with people and. But at the end of the day, like, it was kind of like the deals that I'd been in. It was like, I can sing all these songs that don't mean anything to me, and I can live this life that isn't authentic, and I can be absolutely depressed and miserable and not even want to be here because I'm just. I'm living my life for everyone else, and it's not even my life anymore at that point, so what's the point? Like, that was how I felt. And then it was like, the same with the church. It was like, I can put on this face And I can do all these things and these. Go through the motions and I can try to be this thing that I think everyone wants me to be and be totally miserable and depressed and. Or I can face the fear of rejection and have a shot at actually being happy and, like, living my truth, you know? And I think what I'd already been through up to that point, I just. I had nothing to lose. I had nothing else to lose. I was like, okay, you know, I've already lost a lot, so can't really get much worse. And it honestly didn't. You know, it just got better with time.

Emotional Struggles, Suicidal Ideation, and Healing

John Dehlin [01:44:17] How was this you mentioned, like, saying, you want. We're having suicidal ideation from the religion that's supposed to be making you happy and bringing you joy.

Ellee Duke [01:44:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:30] When you were living it, by the way.

Samantha Shelley [01:44:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:32] Like, that's. And when you had done all the things, gotten worthy, gotten married in the temple, you were on the covenant path and it was making you want to end your life.

Samantha Shelley [01:44:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:42] Did that get better once you stopped and told your mom and left, in terms of the suicidal ideation?

Ellee Duke [01:44:49] Oh, yeah, it's definitely gone so much better. Yeah, Like, a lot better. But, yeah, there was a period of time where it was just always that. That hopelessness of, like, I'm never enough and I. I'm never gonna be enough, and. And how can I. How can I be in this thing that requires so much of me when I just don't feel like I can do all of it, you know, like, it was just this up. It just constant, like, uphill climb. And I just. I think, just like the. The hopelessness that. That made me feel at points and then reflecting everything back on my worth as a person and the state of my life being dictated by who I was and my worthiness and all these things was just.

Auz Engemann [01:45:39] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [01:45:39] I mean, it just drives you to the lowest point because like you said, the way out is through this religion. But when you do all of that and you can't find a way out of that stuff, then you feel hopeless, you know? And nobody had ever said to me before, just do something else. No one had ever told me that. I didn't even. Like, it didn't even register as an option to me. I didn't think there was another option. But, like, when he said that to me, it was like I kind of felt dumb because I was like, oh, yeah, like, I can just not do these things anymore that are making me feel feel this way. But that's how it is. Like, you're so deep in it that you can't see any other way aside from that, you know? And so, yeah, on the one hand,

John Dehlin [01:46:39] you've got to be incredibly grateful that you married Oz. And on the other hand, I wonder if you ever wonder or wish that someone had said that to your uncle.

Ellee Duke [01:46:50] Oh, I think about that a lot, and I wish I could have said it to him. You know, I wish somebody could have said it, and I don't know if somebody did. I mean, he definitely had friends that were very supportive of him or exactly who he was, and I always wanted to be, but I also felt this. This, like, just this tension that you could, like, feel. And it was like when you see. When you don't see your parents bring it up or anyone, like the adults kind of hiding it, it's like you kind of feel like you have to follow the lead. And I also was still very much in the church as well, and so I'm trying to kind of figure out how I feel about these things also knowing my uncle feels how he feels and. But you can't. Nobody can talk about it. And it just was kind of. Yeah, I just, I was talking about that the other day with Austin, where I just was like, man, I just. I wish I could talk to him now. You know,

John Dehlin [01:47:55] I've been wanting to share this thought for a while, but I wanted to wait till it made sense to share it. But, like, every once in a while I just look at some of these things. I've. You know, this podcast is 17 years old, and these issues have been issues for 40, 50, 60, 100 years. But every once in a while I just go, I can't believe we're still having these conversations. I can't believe we're still doing what we're doing as the Mormon people. And I had this thought when you told me about your uncle. So your uncle dies around what year?

Ellee Duke [01:48:30] 2018.

John Dehlin [01:48:31] Okay, so four years ago, right? Four years ago. The church has this awful policy that causes a bunch of people to die by suicide, including your uncle. And it's clearly a combination of the church's long standing policy about LGBTQ people, plus this disaster of an exclusion policy that not only was a disaster because it was implemented, but it was a double disaster because it was removed. So your uncle dies, takes his life, ends his life as a result of all this. And everybody knows it. And that's not enough to make you and your mom and all the family just go, wait a minute, someone just ended their life over this time out, we're all going to stop all of this. And we're going to either get to the bottom of this and fix it or we're done. But like, literally someone of a close, loved family member, one of your favorite humans on the planet, ends his life. I'm sure your mom loves her brother.

Ellee Duke [01:49:48] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:49:49] Right. And somehow that happens and everybody's just like, that's sad. Okay. Let's move on. Let's keep going. How?

Auz Engemann [01:50:03] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [01:50:03] I couldn't. I couldn't do it. I don't know.

Auz Engemann [01:50:08] No.

John Dehlin [01:50:08] But isn't it just weird that this just keep the, the train keeps rolling on?

Samantha Shelley [01:50:15] Yeah. If it's so scary to give up the ideology that you're psychologically dependent on. And I feel like a lot of the time, even when a traumatic thing like that happens, it's like, that's what you've been taught your whole life, is the thing that you rest on when stuff like that happens.

John Dehlin [01:50:32] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:50:33] So it just puts you in this impossible double bind because it's. It's not like, you know, it's not like you don't care enough about the person that's died. It's just that, like, your psyche is not capable of, like, going there because you've just been, like, conditioned that way for so long. So it's like, it's just like, scary that our evolutionary wiring is this way and we just like fall into these intense cult like ideologies because we're scared.

Auz Engemann [01:51:00] Yep. Fear.

Ellee Duke [01:51:01] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:51:02] Yeah.

Auz Engemann [01:51:02] Fear.

Samantha Shelley [01:51:02] Fear.

John Dehlin [01:51:04] Yeah. On the one hand, it makes all the sense in the world, but on one hand. On the other hand, it's completely insanity.

Samantha Shelley [01:51:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:51:10] That just one death by suicide doesn't pull the whole Mormon Church into a screeching halt.

Auz Engemann [01:51:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:51:19] To say we got it. And yet, like thousands, tens of thousands have died by suicide within Mormonism. I mean, I'm guessing because the church doesn't want that number released, but it's certainly in the thousands.

Ellee Duke [01:51:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:51:31] And like 2022, business as usual. It's so maddening. It's insanity. Am I being overdramatic?

Auz Engemann [01:51:42] No, not at all.

Samantha Shelley [01:51:43] It doesn't give you a ton of

John Dehlin [01:51:45] humanity or, you know, just the fact that women can't. Women can't lead. They'll never be a woman prophet. Women can't be general authorities. Women can't be bishops, Women can't be stake presidents. Like a hundred years ago when women got the vote, like, somehow that should have just like. No, we're cutting that. We're fixing this. It's 2022, and everybody's like, oh, yeah, women are second class citizens. That's how we roll.

Auz Engemann [01:52:14] Just a doctrine.

Samantha Shelley [01:52:15] And if you don't make Mormon babies, the church doesn't grow.

John Dehlin [01:52:19] But am I? Am I? It's insanity, right? Like. Yeah. Isn't it insanity?

Samantha Shelley [01:52:24] Yeah.

Auz Engemann [01:52:24] When you take a step back and, like, really look at it. It is, for sure.

Samantha Shelley [01:52:27] Yeah.

Auz Engemann [01:52:27] And it's, it's sad. It's sad.

Ellee Duke [01:52:29] It's really sad.

Auz Engemann [01:52:30] That's what it is.

John Dehlin [01:52:31] Yeah. I don't mean to be glib or.

Auz Engemann [01:52:32] No, not at all.

Ellee Duke [01:52:33] No, it's a completely valid thought. Tragic.

Auz Engemann [01:52:38] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [01:52:39] It's hard.

John Dehlin [01:52:41] Well, and I'm. And again, condolences about your brother, your uncle, and no offense to your family. It's no one's fault. We're all victims.

Auz Engemann [01:52:50] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [01:52:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:52:50] Even the leaders are victims. We're all victims. Right? Everyone's doing their best.

Samantha Shelley [01:52:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:52:57] Everyone's just doing what they think is right. That's what makes it so weird. Yeah, I, I, what's that?

Ellee Duke [01:53:03] No, I just said yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:53:06] Like, even the Mormon prophet and apostles, they're literally just doing their best.

Auz Engemann [01:53:11] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [01:53:11] 100.

Auz Engemann [01:53:12] I believe that for sure.

Ellee Duke [01:53:13] Yeah, me too.

John Dehlin [01:53:14] Doing what they think God wants them to do.

Auz Engemann [01:53:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:53:17] They don't like this. That's the weird thing. They don't like this. Holland doesn't like saying things that make people angry and want to die, but he feels like he's doing what's right anyway.

Guest [01:53:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:53:31] I'm just processing this. Like. Okay, so I have to ask one question that, that I don't think you're expecting me to ask, and it may not even be a thing, but I want to ask it.

Samantha Shelley [01:53:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:53:40] So when Natasha Helford Parker did, like, her story on Mormon stories, and this was years after we met and years before excommunication, she talked about having a sexual experience in high school as a Mormon kid, but she just loved. It's Joe. It's actually the person she's with now, but it was just this non Mormon guy she meets in high school. They fall in love and she knows the rules, but she has progressive parents, kind of like you, Oz. And she has sex, but instead of feeling awful about it, she loved it. And she said it was a great experience. And it was like, I'm just so happy I was able to have a really positive first sexual experience. And somehow she was able to compartmentalize. Now it came back to bite her in a few ways later with some things that happened in her life and at BYU and with, you know, in her marriage ultimately. But it made me just realize, like, how how beautiful it would be to be able to have like a beautiful, edifying, guilt free, informed, educated first sexual experience. And what would it be if all Mormons and all people are able to have that?

Ellee Duke [01:55:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:55:08] But then I think about your first sexual experience and so many other Mormon women where it's like, best case, you wait till you're married. Right. But you know nothing about sex. You've been told for 10, 20 years, it's bad, it's dirty, it's awful, and it's shameful. And then all of a sudden you're supposed to have a great wedding night. And you know, I've had hundreds of Mormon stories, episodes at this point about how that's a nightmare on the wedding night for the Mormon woman. Because it doesn't work that way. You don't just turn off the, the negative associations and the guilt and shame. You don't just shut that off. But that's the best case. A worst case is what I'm thinking your first sexual experience was, which was non consensual. It was before marriage. It was probably not a great experience. But then you add all the guilt and the shame and the bishop and the punishments and the disfellowshipment and the shame and telling your mom and all the guilt that you experienced and then that's, that's your first sexual experience. And then you go into a marriage with that being what you bring into it. Now, I'm not going to project what your first experiences were or not, and I'm not even trying to pry there other than to just at least put that up there as a, as something that occurred to me that that probably doesn't set. If someone goes through what you went through, Ellie, that doesn't set them up for a great beginning to a marriage.

Ellee Duke [01:56:55] Yeah, I think it's all about the purse. It's a lot, I mean, a lot of it is my having to reframe what sex is because it meant something different in that relationship than it would with Austin. Because I think also when you are genuinely in love with someone and you know that they deeply care about you and want the best for you and respect you, that actually. Yeah. Because I mean, I, I didn't know like if I'd have, like how that would go, trying to do that again, you know, after you go through like where it's just not. Yeah. It's just not a great thing. And so. Yeah, I just want to say, like for anyone else who's been through that, like, just have hope that like for me, like finding Somebody that cherishes you and like, really loves you deeply. Like, it can still be very beautiful and really amazing. And yeah, it's, it's just takes finding that person and also I think healing that part of yourself that's also a really large part of it as well. And, and, and trying to find the tools to do that. And I think for me, it's just been talking about it, being open about it. And shame wants you to not talk about it. Shame wants you to keep it secret and heavy and dark and painful deep inside of you. And as soon as you talk about it and as soon as you are open about shame of any kind, like whether it's sexual or it's from addiction or whatever it is, like when you face it, it's like you set yourself free. And the more you do that, the more you become free of it. And so I like, for myself, that doesn't affect me at all now. And it truly didn't. I think for me, it was more so about the mental and emotional side of it for me. And yeah, there's still been times where things have come up for me, but it's being with somebody that, like, I trust really changed my whole perspective on that. Yeah. And it's great. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:59:21] I mean, I'm so happy. I'm so happy that has worked out.

Ellee Duke [01:59:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:59:26] And for, for a lot of people, it. They don't start out great. And.

Ellee Duke [01:59:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:59:33] Years into the marriage, sometimes decades into the marriage, that part doesn't get figured out or worked out. And people end up with Natasha or Whoever in their 40s with like. And it's. It's hard for all parties. Like, it's hard for everyone. So I guess I'm. I didn't need you to tell me, but I'm super glad to hear that was something you guys were able to work out. And, And I hope people can find a good therapist or sex therapist or whatever they need to do to heal from the sexual shame that so often comes into a Mormon marriage.

Auz Engemann [02:00:08] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [02:00:09] 100. No, thanks for bringing that up because I think that is something that is not talked a lot about because there is so much shame around it. And it's really important to talk about because that's the first step of addressing it and healing it, you know? So. Yeah.

Coming Out as Post-Mormon to Family and Moving Forward

John Dehlin [02:00:29] Oz, what about your parents?

Auz Engemann [02:00:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:00:33] Yeah.

Auz Engemann [02:00:34] So. So with. With Ellie. And once again, I never mean to speak for you, but I think I have a pretty good insight on this. For Ellie, it was her, like, transition out of the church was a much like, longer, slower burn that, like, caused a lot of pain and a lot of. Yeah. Just horrible things in her life and a lot of just stress. And for me, like, not a lot changed as far as how I view the world and, like, how I. I mean, yes. Like, I kind of view God in a different way now. And I'm still. I'm still, like, trying to figure that out. Right. And, like, my relationship with that source. Right. Like, I'm still, like, figuring that out, but it was just more of, like, okay, I'm thankful for this part of my life and I can just move on. Right? So I'm really thankful for that. And I think, honestly, like, just how I was raised and my parents and once again, just my mindset about life has, like, helped me to do that. But because my parents have always been so supportive. And so just, like, what I know and what I'm so thankful for is that at the end of the day, they just want me to be happy, and they want me to, like, find my bliss and just do the things that make me drive. Right. And they will support that. And I've never questioned that. And I know that's not a lot of people's experience, so I'm very, very, very grateful for that.

Ellee Duke [02:02:06] But you. Sorry, not to interrupt you, but I know you were nervous.

Auz Engemann [02:02:09] No. And that's what I was just gonna get into. Right? So, like, I. I would. I was, like, making my. When I was, like, leaving, I was making myself believe, oh, it's no big deal. Like, my parents are gonna be chill. Right. Because I knew that. But still, like, I still had that part of me that didn't want to disappoint them and didn't want to,

Ellee Duke [02:02:30] Like, worry them.

Auz Engemann [02:02:31] Yeah. Worry them. Right. And so for. For. For quite a few months, I, like, I was just telling myself, oh, yeah, like, I'm going to tell them it's gonna be no big deal. And, like, months will go by. I'm telling it's gonna be no big deal. But I think internally, I was just a little bit nervous about it. Right.

Ellee Duke [02:02:48] And we'd, like, be, you know, here and visiting, and they would say things. Yeah. About, you know, the church and whatever. Like, if. As if we're all, like, still part of it.

Auz Engemann [02:02:57] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [02:02:57] And, like, I just. I also kind of started to feel awkward because I'm just like. But, like, we're not. And they don't know.

Auz Engemann [02:03:03] And she had already talked to her parents, and so it was like, I was really the only one left that, like, had to do it.

Ellee Duke [02:03:08] But I also was like, it's also someone's thing to tell. It's not my place to, like, take over that conversation.

Auz Engemann [02:03:15] And the more time that went on and the longer that I didn't tell them, the harder it became to tell them. Right.

Ellee Duke [02:03:21] Yeah.

Auz Engemann [02:03:22] And I'm trying to remember. Do you remember how it happened? Like, I can't even recall.

John Dehlin [02:03:27] Really quick. For, for those who aren't Mormon, who don't know, this is always the thing. You're living your, your married life independent.

Auz Engemann [02:03:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:03:35] But you got to come home, you know, to visit. And so, like, they'll look at your clothes and they'll be like, huh, Are they wearing garments or not? Are you wearing a. Are you wearing a sleeveless shirt? Is the garments poking out from the shorts? Right. Or you got a tattoo.

Auz Engemann [02:03:51] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [02:03:51] Or like, oh, there's another tattoo there. Or like another piercing.

John Dehlin [02:03:55] Or they'll say, what. What's your calling right now? Right.

Auz Engemann [02:03:58] In the church?

John Dehlin [02:04:00] Or they'll want to talk about the church. And you'll want to be silent, probably.

Ellee Duke [02:04:05] Yeah. Not interject too much. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:04:08] There's that awkward dance of, like, them wanting to probe but not probe too much because oftentimes they don't want to know the answer. If it's bad.

Auz Engemann [02:04:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:04:15] But they also want to make sure you're living the covenant path. And if you're not, they want to know, but you don't want to tell them and you're afraid to tell them. And like, this is a really common Mormon phenomenon, this dance. You guys are talking.

Auz Engemann [02:04:30] Yeah, for sure. For sure.

Guest [02:04:32] Yeah.

Auz Engemann [02:04:32] Like, do you remember?

Ellee Duke [02:04:33] I, I do remember the conversation during 2020 that. When, when you had had that panic attack. Oh, yeah. And we had gone when we were in Utah, we had talked to them about, like, things that you were dealing with. I don't remember if it came up. I remember when we were out in the backyard and they, I think they kind of brought it up.

Auz Engemann [02:05:00] Right.

Ellee Duke [02:05:01] And we're like, I'm.

Auz Engemann [02:05:02] Honestly, I'm having a hard time remembering

Ellee Duke [02:05:03] because I feel like it would. It kind of came up a few times and it. And it, like, it wasn't like a super clear in depth conversation.

Auz Engemann [02:05:11] And they had been suspecting. Yeah.

Ellee Duke [02:05:13] His dad was in town a few times and, like, asked to go to church with us. And then we, like, showed up to the building and then sacrament was like, over because we didn't know what times we got. And so it was kind of an awkward, like, whoops, like, oops, must have forgot. Must have forgot when church was so

Auz Engemann [02:05:29] they had kind of been like, suspecting that something was going on. But what I do know is that I can't like, recall all the specific

Ellee Duke [02:05:37] things, but we did. We did. I remember the conversation in the backyard and they were very supportive and they were just like, we just want you guys to know, like, we love you and support you and just want you to be happy. Yeah, yeah, that can talk to us about this. And we want to like, talk to you. And yeah, that's like. They were like, it's been, you know, it has been like, hard for us, but like, we. It's your. It's your journey. And who are we to like, inhibit someone else's journey, you know? And so, yeah, it was a really good conversation.

Auz Engemann [02:06:03] Yeah, yeah, it was super, super positive. And once again, like, I know that's just not a normal experience for so many people. And like, people get disowned and it's like, can be very sad. So I'm just very grateful for my parents. Like, they've just.

Ellee Duke [02:06:16] Yeah. And for mine, they're just kick ass.

Auz Engemann [02:06:18] But yeah, and your parents were super supportive too.

Ellee Duke [02:06:20] But yeah, like, when I played that, my song, the one that just came out for my mom in the car, like, I. I didn't know how she was gonna react. And she's like, heard that song before, but I mean, it's talking about therapy and growing up in a religious home and, you know, losing your virginity and drinking and doing drugs and all these things. And then it's like, I just want you to know me, like, aside from all that. And like, she's heard it. She's heard me perform it a few times. But like, sitting in a car, like, playing that for your mom, like, even though she was like, supportive, it was still terrifying. And we both, like, got emotional and after we had like a super long conversation. And recently. Oh yeah, this was like a month ago and like we had this conversation and my mommy, you know, she brought up, you know, she's like, man, I. I just like, I know we could have talked about perfectionism more and we could have talked about sex more and like all these things. And it was just really cool to see my. To. To see my parents, like, journey as well with just like. Because I know when my, when my brother, my little brother left, like, it was really, really difficult. And like, they were still supportive for sure, but it was still like, hard, you know, And I just feel like seeing them just like be really open and loving and like, choose to like, have that perspective has just been a huge blessing and Like, I truly believe, like, it is something that you can just choose to do, whether you're the parent or the child. You know, like, at the end of the day, like, I think we all just want to. To be seen and loved and accepted, and sometimes fear just gets in the way of that and our own projections and our own thoughts. But, like, at the end of the day, like, I've just found that it's, like, it's so worth it to, like, have those uncomfortable conversations and to push through the fear because, like, what's on the other side of that is so worth getting to, you know? Yeah, yeah,

John Dehlin [02:08:23] yeah. That. That we're going to include a link in the show notes to that. Is it Instagram or Tick Tock or both?

Ellee Duke [02:08:31] It's a Tick tock. Yeah. It's almost at a million views.

John Dehlin [02:08:35] Oh, wow. Really?

Samantha Shelley [02:08:35] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [02:08:36] Oh, that's getting close. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:08:39] Yeah, I only have one or two of those. That's hard to get, right, Sam?

Samantha Shelley [02:08:42] Yeah, I wouldn't know.

John Dehlin [02:08:46] Yeah. But that's a really beautiful moment where you play that song for your mom. So we're going to include a link to that in the show notes because everyone should see it. I almost. I almost want to play that somehow, like, splice that in. So let's go ahead and go to the. If it's okay. Should we go to the song? Did you get to finish what you were saying about your parents and.

Auz Engemann [02:09:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:09:06] Can I give a shout out to your parents, both of your parents, Ellie's mom and dad and Oz's mom and dad, for choosing family over beliefs?

Auz Engemann [02:09:17] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [02:09:18] Yeah. They're perfect examples of that.

Auz Engemann [02:09:21] Yep. We're very. Just thankful. Very thankful.

John Dehlin [02:09:27] We're gonna sit down. We're gonna say.

Auz Engemann [02:09:28] The only other thing I was gonna say that I did want to mention is my dad, is that my parents are just the greatest people ever. My dad is just a little bit of a worry wart. He's just like a naturally more anxious person. And I think he. He just loves so deeply and, like, just loves me. And because of that, he worries. Right. And so I. I think possibly he might have had a little bit harder of a time with it than my mom. Not to discount my mom if she's had a hard time. I don't. I don't know, but she hasn't seemed like she has as much. I just know my dad worries. Right. And so I did have a good conversation with him in the car one time when he was out visiting in Los Angeles, and we were just kind of talking about things And. I was just, like, saying, you know, I was just making sure he knew that I was okay. Right. And that, like, I'm not, like, living any type of different, crazy life. Like, I'm still just me. I'm just kind of, like, choosing to look at life a little bit differently. But something I said that I think was very helpful, at least in my mind, I hope it was. I said, okay, dad. So I don't believe in a God who. Even if I. Even if. Let's just say the church is true 100%, and there's, you know, the celestial kingdom and families are forever and all of this. Right. Going from that perspective, that's all true. Do you believe in a God that if I had walked away and followed what I felt like was the right thing to do for me and was still living a good life and still trying to help people and still trying to be positive and just was still me. Do you believe in a God that would be like, sorry, Austin, you know, you stepped away from the church, so even though you lived a good life and you helped people and serve people and whatever, did your best, followed your heart, you can't. You can't come in. And he was like, no. I said, okay, I don't either. Right. So. So we're good, right? Like, at the end of the day, like, it's all fine. Like, we, both of us don't believe in a God that's like that. So let's go from there, you know?

Ellee Duke [02:11:41] Yeah. And I think for me, a lot of conversations I've had with my. With honestly, every member of my family, my immediate family, like, has just been like, there's always that quote in the church. Like, faith and fear can't exist in the same mind at the same time. And so that was something that's, like, still stuck with me where it's like, if. And I have to be aware, like, when I'm acting on fear, like, you're not acting on faith. And so anytime, like, you're. You're scared or you're acting on that, it's, like, just a good practice I've found, to, like, check in and be like, why am I gonna say this? Or, why am I gonna do this? And am I acting on faith or am I acting on fear? And faith doesn't necessarily mean in God. It could just be in general and in humanity, in yourself and a relationship, whatever, you know, Future hope. Yeah.

Auz Engemann [02:12:35] Just hope.

Ellee Duke [02:12:36] Yeah. And it's like, for me, you know, spending so many years of my life acting on fear, literally just Led me to depression, anxiety, these thoughts about life and not wanting to be alive and, like, all these really heavy things. And it's like, as soon as I change my mindset to, like, a mindset of hope and more, like, faith in myself and. And just the world in general, like, that was when my healing, like, really took a turn on the up. And so I don't know. I just think that's something that has really helped me in, like, the process of getting to the other side of a lot of these things, you know?

New Music, Future Plans, and Closing Reflections

John Dehlin [02:13:17] Well, that takes us to your song.

Ellee Duke [02:13:19] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:13:20] And your emerging rebirth of a career.

Ellee Duke [02:13:24] Yes.

Samantha Shelley [02:13:25] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [02:13:26] It's resurrected.

John Dehlin [02:13:28] So that second label. Did you tell us whatever happened with that second label?

Ellee Duke [02:13:33] Oh, yeah. It didn't work out.

Auz Engemann [02:13:33] Okay.

Ellee Duke [02:13:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:13:38] Okay. Was that a bummer?

Auz Engemann [02:13:41] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [02:13:42] Yeah, it was a huge bummer. And I. I just kind of clawed my way through the next couple years. My parents helped me out with some things, and a family friend helped me out, and I almost quit a couple times. And then in 2020 was when I had that Billboard number one. And I think that that was called

John Dehlin [02:14:08] again just for those craving.

Ellee Duke [02:14:10] Yeah. With Artie and audience. When that happened, I wrote the song. Yeah. And I sang on it as well. Yeah. So I'm singing on it.

John Dehlin [02:14:17] Include a link to that.

Auz Engemann [02:14:18] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [02:14:18] And I think that kind of just gave me kind of a reigniting of, like, okay, let me just kind of put myself out there one more time. And so I did this, like, songwriting competition. It's like, a really cool thing in Los Angeles, and there's, like, a lot of people that try out for it. And I submitted a song called Broken Crayons that I actually wrote about my uncle, and I ended up winning the songwriting competition. And one of the judges named Tommy, he contacted me, and I ended up signing a sync licensing deal with him, which is basically. He has a company that pitches music to TV shows and commercials and movies and all kinds of stuff like that. And so we kind of started there, and I signed with his company for that, and then just kind of slowly but surely, like, I got to know him better, and he just became, like, a really special person in, like, both of our lives and has just, like, he's, like, a really successful businessman. He, like, him and his wife never had kids, but they just do a lot of good for people. And he and I just have, like, this really cool relationship. I feel like he was like my brother in, like, another life or something or like, my uncle or something. And anyways, he just. We just decided to start A company together. And he was like, I want to be partners. Like, I want you to have, like, creative control. Like, I want you to have a say in all these things. And, like, you've been through, like, at that point, I'd been through enough to know exactly what I wanted, and it wasn't to do the same things that I. The same kind of deals that I'd done before. And so, yeah, he's my business partner, and he's one of my closest friends, and he has, like, a couple other companies. And so we. We've, like, run our company for the last. Just over a year now, and it's going amazing. We have some really cool partners that have jumped in the last couple months. And, yeah, it's honestly just been phenomenal. Like, I. There were points where I. I didn't think this would happen. I didn't think I would be able to feel genuinely excited again about my career. And to know that that has still been possible and to, like, organically and naturally, like, find it again has just been a huge blessing and also a testament to my whole journey of, like, this never had anything to do with, like, my worthiness, you know, like, that it was, like, all these things that I equated to my success or whatever. Like, there's still so much power and just a human being just being. And just being themselves and just doing their best. Like, there's so much more power in that than we realize. And not to say that God or a higher power isn't involved in it, you know, I think that I believe it very much is so. But also, at the end of the day, like, it's on us to, like, choose to, like, get back up and to choose to do something different and to choose to take another chance and to try again, you know? And I think we. I think for myself, I didn't ever credit myself enough to, like, the power that we have and our agency and our ability to, like, be empowered by our choices and not leave that up to someone to tell us what to do, but to just, like, have the courage to, like, follow your gut and just keep getting back up, you know? And that's worked well for me thus far. So I'm just gonna keep doing it.

John Dehlin [02:18:01] So you kind of. So what? So the traditional path was sign with the label and then try and write the songs and get the album and get the hit. The hit and go on tour. What's your strategy or tactics now?

Ellee Duke [02:18:17] So it's. It's. It's still similar. Like, I just had, like, a big Part of our business plan has been, like, you know, getting music and TV and film, because that's. The money is really good. And also that's immediate exposure. So with, like, a song I just had was, like, the opening scene in a new, like, Netflix series that was, like, top 10 for, like, a while. It's called first Kill. Okay. It's like, a little. It's like a queer vampire, kind of like Twilight, but like a modern, like, high school version. And it's two girls that are, like. I think one is, like, a vampire killer and one is a vampire, and then they, like, fall in love. Anyways, I haven't watched the whole thing yet, but so my. One of my songs was, like, the opening track for this.

Samantha Shelley [02:19:01] The.

Ellee Duke [02:19:01] I think it was, like, the second episode of the first season, and it got, like, 57. It's called I think you're the devil. And it got, like, 50,000 Shazams in, like, the first, I think, two weeks. And it's at, like, almost, I think, 500,000 streams. And this was just, like, a month and a half ago. Yeah, a month ago. So, like. Yeah. So we have a. And so that's a big part of our business plan is, like, getting your music in these, like, streaming platforms is huge to get exposure as an artist. So that's helped me on all fronts. We also. One of our partners has a lot of connections with, like, major labels and just, like, really great producers and songwriters. And so she's been able to connect me with just, like, some people that are just, like, very. Just heavy hitters in the industry. And so my next single that's coming out is, like, with these really amazing people that are just killing it, and we have, like, a big push behind it. So it's still very much, like, getting exposure, and, like, how do you do that? But also, how do you make money while you're doing it? Because so many of these artists, you know, we go broke trying to do that. And so a big way to not go broke is to, like, do TV and film. And so we have, like. My team is amazing. I could literally talk about this for a whole episode, like, all the stuff that we're doing, but it's still very much to get a hit, but it's not completely reliant on that. And I think that's the problem, is that so many people are so reliant on getting one hit. You don't know it's gonna be a hit.

Auz Engemann [02:20:33] You.

Ellee Duke [02:20:33] No one has any clue. The audience decides that. So it's like, we're putting out what we feel are the best songs and giving them their best shot. And we're just going. And we're not going to stop because something wasn't the biggest song in the world, you know, so. And TikTok is a huge part of our plan. And I've been having so much fun with TikTok. Like, I love it.

Auz Engemann [02:20:54] And I'll say one thing, the cool thing is too, that at the same time she was deciding to jump in with this business partner, she had another deal on the table, another offer from another company.

John Dehlin [02:21:02] Oh, third deal.

Auz Engemann [02:21:03] And so it was just kind of like, fourth deal. What do I do? And it's like, I'm just super proud of her for choosing the thing that she felt was really, like, the right thing to do, even though the other one was very enticing and very, like, the normal path to go down as far as, like, music goes.

Ellee Duke [02:21:16] And also just the names associated with it was my attorney at the time was like, you have to do this because they have blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm just like, bro, I just did this twice and it didn't work out. Like, why would I. They had Taylor Swift.

Samantha Shelley [02:21:30] Hello.

Ellee Duke [02:21:31] Like, you know, so, so anyways, thank you. Yeah, it was definitely. There was actually quite a few people that didn't think I was making the right decision, but I definitely did, and I'm glad I followed my gut.

Samantha Shelley [02:21:41] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [02:21:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:21:43] Isn't that courageous, Samantha? Like, isn't that inspiring?

Samantha Shelley [02:21:48] Yeah. But it sounds like you've had a strong sense of self since, oh, I don't know, the second record label.

Ellee Duke [02:21:54] Yeah, I'm trying. I mean, I feel like when I listen to it, it doesn't lead me astray. And so I'm just trying to trust it more. Cause I think for a while, I, I, I didn't do that. And it showed, you know, so.

John Dehlin [02:22:08] Yeah, so. So the single that we're premiering today is deeper. And I'm going to just one little mini biographical thing quickly. Like, so I. When Tyler Glenn did his article with Rolling Stone and came out as gay and Mormon, I reached out to him and I'm like, hey, Tyler, let's talk. You know? And he didn't respond for, like, another year because at the time, he was trying to tell the world that you can be gay and Mormon. But then the November 15 policy happened, and that's when he reached out to me, is after the November 15 policy happened, he watches Samantha and Tanner's episode on Mormon Stories and we become friends. And he had had a Successful career with Neon Trees and his, you know, two or three albums with them and a lot of success.

Samantha Shelley [02:22:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:22:59] So he decides for his solo album called Excommunication to talk about his faith crisis. Like 10 and a breakup, but like 10 songs, a lot of it about. And he does a video where he's spitting on the painting of Joseph Smith and he's another one. He's stripping down to his garments and in the video and he's merging his faith crisis with his art. And for me it's. It's definitely my favorite of his albums and my favorite songs of anything he's ever done are on that album. And I think it's an amazing work of art and of heart and it's inspiring. And it's of course the worst performing of all, you know, anything he's ever done. And I don't know if he would look back and say it hurt his career or didn't. But like, I'm also reminded of when Richard Dutcher, who is a really well known Mormon filmmaker, had a faith crisis and made a movie about his faith crisis and it basically ended his career. And so it's an interesting and kind of courageous. And like imagine dragons, they've been really careful. I interviewed Wayne Sermon and you say you're friends with him. Like great, great people. And I met Dan and they never like went explicit with their faith crisis. But if you ask Wayne, it's like every album we've done has been about our faith crisis. We've just. I just think maybe they've been more subtle about it.

Ellee Duke [02:24:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:24:32] But like, it's a courageous but also an interesting creative choice to decide to talk about your faith crisis with your art. And I'm not saying that to like make you scared and you're.

Ellee Duke [02:24:45] Oh no, you know, believe me, I've got all of these things already.

John Dehlin [02:24:48] So talk us about, talk, talk about that. I just curious, what's your thoughts?

Ellee Duke [02:24:52] Yeah, like, I mean, when I wrote the song, like I literally wrote it for myself. Like, I was just in such a bad point that like, that's why I think it is pure art is because like, I had no agenda. I had no. I literally was like using songwriting to like survive what I was going through. And I was like, I have to like get this out of my body in some way. And for me that song was sort of like this final declaration. And I think with the song, like, what I love about it is that it's not like coming after anybody and it's not like, it's not like a negative bash to the church in any way. It's more of just like a very personal. Like, this is some things I've been through that have not helped me to feel like I'm worthy of knowing. And I literally posted a random compilation video of the song a couple months ago because I was just sick of doing all the stupid Trend stuff on TikTok. And I was just like, I just want to, like, get deeper, for lack of a better word. But, like, I was like, I just want to, like, connect with people. Like, I don't want to just be posting my outfits or whatever. Like, it just didn't. Like, it just wasn't bringing me any fulfillment. And so I just made this video randomly and I just was like, this is my story for anyone who needs it. Here's a song I wrote and, like, blah, blah. And I just posted it. And I think within the first couple days, it had, you know, like, two, three hundred thousand views. And I was getting so many followers and so many comments and people from every religion just saying, oh, I was flds, or I was. I was Buddhist or I was whatever. And I just, like, couldn't find my way. And now I'm not. And now I'm this. And so I feel like. Like, I didn't plan this. This was the first. This is the first song I didn't plan.

Auz Engemann [02:27:00] Yeah, you weren't gonna put it out.

Ellee Duke [02:27:02] I wasn't even gonna put it out. The next song that I'm releasing was supposed to be the plan, but then this song just, like, started blowing up. And then I kept posting videos about it, and all the videos just kept doing so well. And it was just, you know, I just kind of came to my team and they were like, oh, you know, let's just. We can put it on an EP maybe like, later on. And, like, I just kept feeling like, no, like, it's gotta come out now. And so we had a meeting and I was just like, I want to release this. Like, this needs to just, like, come out. And so, yeah, I shot the artwork and we got the song all wrapped up and done, and it was already, like, basically done at that point. We just had a few things we had to do. And, yeah, honestly, I just. Yeah, it wasn't planned at all. And I feel like it's. It's the most reaction organically that, like, I've ever just, like, had to a song, you know, and so that was a sign to me because I was sitting there thinking I could get so much hate for this, or, like, I could have people that come in, and if I mention, you know, hashtag exmormon or whatever, I could have all these people that are just, like, hating that or upset about it. But I think my song. I don't think my song evokes hate or judgment. I think the emotion that you feel from it is really relatable. And I think no matter if you're in a religion or not or you're gay or you're straight or whatever it is, like, you just want to be known. Deeper. Aside from all the bullshit that we. We create in our. In this world, it's like, I'm just a human being, and I'm complicated as hell, and I'm messy, but I'm beautiful. And, like, that's what my song is saying. I just want you to know me amidst all the mess and. And, like, love me still. And I literally feel like we all feel like that, and we all want that and we all need that. And I truly believe that's why the comments are like. I mean, if you go and read the comments, like, it changed my life. Like, reading these people saying, I've never related to a song more. I just sent this to my mom. I just told my mom last night that I'm gay. And I just came out to my family, like, seeing what this song was doing for people, I was just like, I cannot keep this to myself. Like, this isn't for me anymore. Like, it's. It's for whoever needs it, and I don't even care what the song does. Like, those couple comments were enough. Like, I was like, okay, great. I, like, dream came true. Like, all I want as an artist is to. To help people find their truth and, like, know that they can their worth being known for who they are.

John Dehlin [02:29:38] I love it. I think it's time to roll the song. Should we roll the song?

Ellee Duke [02:29:42] So excited.

John Dehlin [02:29:43] All right, so do you want to introduce it? Do you want to introduce the song?

Ellee Duke [02:29:47] So we are about to premiere my newest single, Deeper, and there's going to be some different video footage. The song just came out on July 7th, and I hope it gives you whatever you need right now.

John Dehlin [02:30:02] All right, roll. Roll the video.

Guest [02:30:13] It's not that I don't believe in therapy, but I'm paying someone $150 an hour to sit in a chair and stare at me, waiting for me to say something. But I don't want to say. Say nothing. What do you want to know? I grew up in a religious home, and most of the things I've done, my parents don't even know Been so depressed from all the shame Living two lives with just one name I sing in church they say you convert the whole world when you become a famous singer. Then I drink and I smoked and I lost my innocence Before I had a ring on my finger I used to want to please you and show you I'm enough But all I really want is to be loved for the me you don't see Cuz I've hit her so well But I just want you to know me deeper I want you to know me I want you to know me I want you to know me I just want you to know me deeper. It's not that I don't believe in God. But sometimes I think about it all and it feels like a lot. And I know that you think it's wrong to have my questions and my doubts. But hey, isn't that what life is all about? I was so stuck when I thought I had all the answers. Got so caught up that I forgot what really matters. Forgave myself for being a self destructive disaster. And then I turned to a new chapter. I want you to know me I want you to know know me I want you to know me I just want you to know me deeper I want you to know. When you become a drinking I smoked and I lost my innocence I used to want to to please you show you I'm enough but all I really want is to be love without me you don't see cause I hit her so well But I just want you to know me deeper.

John Dehlin [02:33:02] All right. Well, that was so incredibly powerful and beautiful, Samantha. What'd you think?

Samantha Shelley [02:33:08] Yeah, I've been loving it more every time I listen, honestly.

John Dehlin [02:33:11] Did you say you got emotional when you first heard it?

Samantha Shelley [02:33:13] Yeah, I did. When I watched her play it to her mom in the car.

Auz Engemann [02:33:17] Yeah?

John Dehlin [02:33:18] Yeah. Such a powerful, beautiful, raw, authentic song. And it's a universal message. It's totally. Who doesn't want to be seen and loved for who they are and. And known at their deepest levels.

Samantha Shelley [02:33:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:33:33] So powerful.

Ellee Duke [02:33:33] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:33:35] It. It was so meaningful to me because I. Even though I lost my faith early on, I still raised my kids in the church. And my first kid was kind of a rule follower, but my second kid, you know, kissed a boy early. Felt a ton of shame. Like you know, dressed like to kind of. It was very artistic. Like to dress differently was, you know, it was boy crazy. And I was on her and the boy she dated like a duck on a June bug. And yeah, I was. And. And eventually she ended up experimenting sexually. She ended up experimenting with drugs and alcohol. She ended up being assaulted. She ended up, you know, getting lots of tattoos. And I just remember each one of those things was like a knife to my Mormon heart. And she felt it that I was experiencing her decisions that way. But every one of her decisions was developmentally normal and healthy. But I had been conditioned to associate negativity with every life choice she was making, and I was. Not only was I ruining our relationship, but I was causing her incredible sadness and grief because she loves me, right? And yet she's feeling like every step she takes, she's disappointing me more and more. And so I feel like I've worked on that. But your song was a beautiful expression of the work I've tried to do, which is like, who cares about tattoos? Who cares. Who cares about if she found someone she loves and they're, you know, living together now and. And are having the healthy sex that, you know, that they weren't able to have before? And they're not married yet. They just got engaged, by the way. But, yeah, like, and who cares if. If she's find. Finds a healthy relationship with alcohol or with other substances? Like, none of that matters. What matters is the beautiful, brilliant human that she is. So I was able to share your song with. With Maya and just tell her, I love you, and I'm sorry that I made you feel that way for so long. And your. Your song captured that experience for me in a way that I've never experienced before.

Ellee Duke [02:36:07] Wow. Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:36:09] Thank you.

Auz Engemann [02:36:10] That's really cool.

Ellee Duke [02:36:12] Thumbs up for John. For being a dope dad? No, for being a good dad, though.

Auz Engemann [02:36:17] That's.

Ellee Duke [02:36:17] That's important to do, and that's. That's really amazing. I'm sure that meant the world to her.

John Dehlin [02:36:22] Well, my point is thumbs up for you for encouraging people to see others for who they are and not for these conditioned, preconceived notions that we all have.

Guest [02:36:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:36:38] What are you doing over there, Sam?

Samantha Shelley [02:36:39] I'm fine.

John Dehlin [02:36:43] Are you feeling something you want to share?

Ellee Duke [02:36:45] No, I'm just.

Samantha Shelley [02:36:46] I think the song is really beautiful, and I think, like, just seeing who you are as a person is really lovely. You're so sincere and, like, it's so devastating that you felt like you're a bad person for a period of time, because I feel like you've always just been trying to do your own thing, and so it just feels really nice to like, hear the whole story and then see how it's affected you and Maya. It's lovely that you're, like, using your talent like, that special, and it's inspiring.

Ellee Duke [02:37:13] Thank you. Thank you so much. I'm. I. Like, what's crazy to think about is, like, if, like, I hadn't gone through all that, we wouldn't be doing this.

Auz Engemann [02:37:23] And, like, you wouldn't write in the song.

Ellee Duke [02:37:25] Yeah, I wouldn't have written the song. And so I think in hindsight, like, I've, Like, I'm learning. Like, that's the point of, like, going through these things is, like, to try to use it to help somebody else. And, like, there's no. No kind of fulfillment, like, that kind of feeling. And, like, what you do as well, like, trying to give people this place where they can just feel what they're feeling, and it's okay, you know? And so thank you so much for having me. Like, this has been so amazing and so special and just. Is. Just has been such a joy to do. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:38:03] I have to add one last thing. Like, forgive me, but, like, when I think about the story. We just spent six hours. What? Like. But, like, think of these moments, like, you falling in love with music early on, your uncle inspiring you, your parents supporting you, your mom going to freaking Nashville with you. Right. And then turning down. What's that?

Ellee Duke [02:38:29] I said, go, Marcy.

John Dehlin [02:38:30] Yeah. And your dad, I'm sure.

Samantha Shelley [02:38:32] Right.

Ellee Duke [02:38:32] And go gym. He was helping pay for all of it.

John Dehlin [02:38:34] And I'm sure your siblings had to make some sacrifices to be able to have your parents support you. But then you.

Samantha Shelley [02:38:40] You.

John Dehlin [02:38:40] You say no to the American Idol thing, and the first contract doesn't work out, and then the second contract doesn't work out, and then you have these bad experiences and you lose your faith, but you freaking get to meet Oz,

Ellee Duke [02:38:53] and, like, it was all worth it for him.

John Dehlin [02:38:56] And, like. And Oz plays a really important role in helping you feel permission to become yourself, right?

Ellee Duke [02:39:06] Oh, 100%.

John Dehlin [02:39:08] And then to be there with you as you're healing and to show you a reparative type of love and support where he's seeing you. Like, he's embodying this, the. The message of your song.

Ellee Duke [02:39:20] Yeah, he's seeing.

Auz Engemann [02:39:23] That's. Yeah, that's heavy.

Ellee Duke [02:39:27] Yeah.

Auz Engemann [02:39:28] Yeah,

John Dehlin [02:39:30] yeah.

Auz Engemann [02:39:31] He.

John Dehlin [02:39:31] He saw you deeper, and that's. He. What's more healing than that?

Ellee Duke [02:39:37] Yeah. And I. I think because you made me feel that way, I knew what it felt like so I could write that song because that's how I wanted my parents to see me and my extended family and just anybody, you know,

Auz Engemann [02:39:53] and that about that.

Ellee Duke [02:39:53] How I wished my uncle could have felt too, you know?

John Dehlin [02:39:59] But then even to have both of your parents be so cool about your own faith journeys and you don't have to carry around the baggage of parental disapproval, that's huge.

Ellee Duke [02:40:11] And I think on that, to our parents, like, our relationship is. Was just. Has gotten better and better and better, and we're both like, yeah, we're still figuring things out. We don't have, like, a perfect relationship or life, but, like, we're probably both the healthiest and happiest we've ever been.

Auz Engemann [02:40:29] Yeah, definitely.

Ellee Duke [02:40:30] And imagine our parents not supporting us. Like, all those things affect us sitting here right now, like, our families and their support and feeling like we can even come and do this and we're not going to get, like, shunned or something, you know?

Samantha Shelley [02:40:46] So.

Ellee Duke [02:40:47] Yeah, that's. It's huge to have that and we're so thankful for it. And it's worth it. It's worth it. Parents.

John Dehlin [02:40:57] And it's. It's kind of good. You didn't have a big, huge Mormon base because. Because you don't. You didn't have a big base to disappoint in some major way.

Ellee Duke [02:41:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:41:09] Like, when Tyler was doing his neon trees thing, there was a huge morning.

Guest [02:41:12] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:41:12] So when he loses his faith and leaves the church, there's just like, I'm gonna lose this big audience. You didn't. Because you said no along the way and stuck true to your artistic vision. You didn't have that big. The baggage of a big base that you.

Ellee Duke [02:41:26] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:41:27] Had to worry about.

Ellee Duke [02:41:28] 100. And I feel like, if anything, my. My fan base is. Is not Mormon, but can relate so much because they're Catholic or Baptist or whatever. And.

John Dehlin [02:41:37] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [02:41:38] And it just. With that song, like, they've been through so many things, but, yeah, 100%, like, the timing is beautiful, you know?

Auz Engemann [02:41:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:41:47] Yeah. And then the last thing is just every. Every artist ever cliche is selling out to be. For pop. You know, selling out to be popular to. To get the hits to. And like, the idea of you, like, trying to force. Fit yourself into some lane in Nashville and like, that kills people. Like, how many artists have died? Whitney Houston, Prince, like, like, we could go through a list. Jim Morrison, Michael Jackson. Michael Jackson. Like, how many artists have died, like, suffocating under the. The pressures of fandom, but also like, selling out or pop or whatever.

Auz Engemann [02:42:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:42:28] I think that's how it starts, is by selling out. And so I'm just so grateful that you're able to begin this exciting part of your career. From this place of genuine authenticity. It's really inspiring. And I know, Sam, you. You care about that type of stuff a lot. You just left the job. Right. Like, I know this touches you.

Samantha Shelley [02:42:47] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I. It's been. I like listening to your story and hearing about the times we turned down American Idol or, you know, walked away from the record contract. I like that you had that thread throughout. Even though sometimes you would, like, walk down a path for a while and it didn't work out.

Ellee Duke [02:43:02] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:43:02] Like, you always had that.

Ellee Duke [02:43:04] It's always another door.

Samantha Shelley [02:43:05] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [02:43:06] If not, there's a window, you know.

Guest [02:43:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:43:10] Well, you've got at least two fans here.

Ellee Duke [02:43:13] Oh, well, same.

John Dehlin [02:43:15] And ditto. And now hopefully tens of thousands more.

Samantha Shelley [02:43:18] Yeah. Minimum.

John Dehlin [02:43:21] Plus all that you're getting. So we're just, we're excited for you both and we're so thrilled you would come give us the honor of premiering your single on Mormon stories. And we're going to be your biggest fans.

Ellee Duke [02:43:33] Thank you so much.

Auz Engemann [02:43:34] Yeah, this has been great.

Ellee Duke [02:43:36] Yeah. It's been unforgettable.

Auz Engemann [02:43:38] Yeah. Beautiful.

John Dehlin [02:43:39] And Oz, good luck with your career.

Auz Engemann [02:43:41] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:43:41] Yeah, thank you.

Auz Engemann [02:43:42] I appreciate that.

Ellee Duke [02:43:43] Yeah, baby. I'm working on it.

John Dehlin [02:43:45] Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, you've such an inspiring story. I'm sure you've drawn inspiration from what you two have done together.

Auz Engemann [02:43:55] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:43:55] That can only help, right?

Auz Engemann [02:43:57] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:43:57] Yeah. Yeah. Well, beautiful. All right, so tell everyone how they can find you.

Ellee Duke [02:44:05] Yeah. So I'm on Instagram, I'm on YouTube. Everything is Ellie Duke. E, L, L, E, E, D, U, K, E. Okay, so E, double L, double E, Duke.

John Dehlin [02:44:16] Okay.

Ellee Duke [02:44:17] Spotify, Apple music, itunes, Amazon, anywhere you stream music. And then I'm super active on Instagram and Tick Tock if you want to like, keep up with just the day to day stuff going on and then kind of big announcements. I also have a really cool merch line that's dropping soon. I have charm bracelets that I designed the charms and they're kind of symbolic of certain songs or certain themes with my brand. And then I also have some T shirts that I designed, the logo that I just got back and there's going to be a bunch of different colors and I'm going to have. I'm like starting my own store basically. So there's going to be all kinds of fun things that you can get that kind of represent this whole journey that we're all on and like healing and conquering together.

Auz Engemann [02:45:05] So.

Samantha Shelley [02:45:06] So, yeah, catch me and John in our charm bracelets and T shirts next episode.

Ellee Duke [02:45:11] We'll be rocking them.

Guest [02:45:12] Seriously.

Samantha Shelley [02:45:13] I'm immediately sewed.

Ellee Duke [02:45:17] Yes. So stay tuned for that as well.

Samantha Shelley [02:45:19] All right.

John Dehlin [02:45:20] We'll include links to all that in our show notes.

Ellee Duke [02:45:22] Beautiful.

John Dehlin [02:45:23] Thanks again.

Ellee Duke [02:45:24] Thank you, guys. Much love.

Samantha Shelley [02:45:26] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:45:27] And Samantha, part of the deal is that when you come on, you get to kind of let people know about the good stuff you're doing. And I always like to. Not today, no.

Samantha Shelley [02:45:37] I'm like, what am I doing?

John Dehlin [02:45:38] Okay, well, Samantha's an amazing faith transitions coach. She's helping people through these transitions who need support.

Auz Engemann [02:45:46] Cool.

John Dehlin [02:45:46] I'm just gonna. I'm gonna plug you even though you wouldn't do this.

Guest [02:45:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:45:49] So your. Your website is Samantha shelleycoaching.com and that's Shelley with an ey. Is that right? So at the Shelley. Yeah. And I family members close to me have worked with Samantha friends. And she's one of the wisest people I know.

Samantha Shelley [02:46:06] Thank you. Wow.

John Dehlin [02:46:08] And she is also. She writes pop music. So you have your own Spotify little channel.

Guest [02:46:15] Right?

Ellee Duke [02:46:15] I can't wait to check it out. I'm so excited to listen. I'm so excited.

John Dehlin [02:46:19] I think it's really good stuff.

Ellee Duke [02:46:20] Heck, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:46:21] So what. How do people find that?

Samantha Shelley [02:46:23] It's Samantha Shelley again. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:46:27] Yeah. And then of course, the way she's often most known is as the co host of Zelf on the Shelf, which is a YouTube channel. And you have a tick tock as well. So I'm gonna plug all that.

Samantha Shelley [02:46:37] Yeah. The sounds bow is my handle everywhere.

John Dehlin [02:46:41] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [02:46:41] Cool.

John Dehlin [02:46:42] You're so understated, Samantha.

Samantha Shelley [02:46:43] I know. It's like I wanna. I need to strike the right balance of like that because I haven't figured it out yet.

Ellee Duke [02:46:50] You're a good hype man, though.

Samantha Shelley [02:46:51] That's good.

John Dehlin [02:46:52] Well, Samantha, it's great to have you on. Thank you so much for joining us.

Samantha Shelley [02:46:56] So much fun.

John Dehlin [02:46:57] And the teal episode we did is like going gangbusters. Like.

Ellee Duke [02:46:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:47:01] It's over 100,000 views and it's just a month in or so.

Samantha Shelley [02:47:03] So.

John Dehlin [02:47:04] Anyway.

Auz Engemann [02:47:05] Wow.

Ellee Duke [02:47:05] It's amazing. Congrats.

Auz Engemann [02:47:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:47:07] Thanks for coming on, Samantha.

Samantha Shelley [02:47:09] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:47:09] Yeah, you're the best. All right, you guys take care and stay in touch.

Auz Engemann [02:47:14] Definitely.

John Dehlin [02:47:15] And. And if we can ever help in any other way, let us know.

Ellee Duke [02:47:18] Thank you so much.

Samantha Shelley [02:47:19] Same here.

Auz Engemann [02:47:20] Yeah.

Ellee Duke [02:47:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:47:21] And everyone else, thank you so much for joining us today on Mormon Stories. We really appreciate the support. You can find us@mormonstories.org we appreciate your emails@mormonstoriesmail.com we live and thrive by your financial support. So you can always go to MormonStories.org, click on the Donate button at the top of the page. Become a monthly donor and you can know that your donations are tax deductible. In the US we're fully transparent and every dollar you give to us goes towards creating programming like this where we help people share stories and we help normalize a faith journey, help you realize you're not alone, you're not crazy, and help you get the support you need and inspiration in the case of Ellie Duke. So thanks for your support if you already support us. If you don't, please become a monthly donor. And of course you can follow us on TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, YouTube and even Twitter, though we're inactive on Twitter. But please follow us and support us. Subscribe to us share these episodes and we'll keep doing this as long as we have the support support for it. So thanks so much everybody. You guys take care and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.