Introducing the Series and Guests

John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hi everyone. This is Dr. John Dehlin of Mormon Stories podcast. I want to thank you for joining us today on this epic 17 part series featuring Dr. Matthew Harris and his amazing book, Second Class Black Mormons and the Struggle for Racial Equality. This series has been groundbreaking. We've never had the response so far that we've had in terms of people really valuing our in depth coverage. This groundbreaking book that's talking about the Mormon Church's priesthood and temple ban against black people and then the dynamics, the inner workings, the political machinations of how the sausage gets made in terms of lifting the priesthood ban in the aftermath. So we have some good news and bad news about this series. The good news is thanks to the generous donations of those who have been watching it so far, we've been able to, I believe, more than generously compensate Dr. Harris for his contributions. That's the good news. The bad news is, you know, because we made the promise that 100% of the donations would go to Matt, we have not received any compensation for about the $20,000 of production costs that we incurred to produce this series and that that sort of imbalance would make it so we wouldn't be able to produce series like this going forward. So. So if you value this series, if you want to see the Open Stories foundation also be compensated for its production cost for this series and if you want to see series like this with Matt and with other people continue, we kind of need you to step up and donate to cover our production costs. And it's really easy to do that. All you have to do is go to MormonStories.org donate or go to MormonStories.org and click on the donate button and you can do a one time donation, a recurring donation, and if you want to, you can type Second Class Saints or Matt Harris in the description and that will hopefully allow us to cover our production costs for this epic series. Regardless, we want to thank Dr. Matt Harris for his generosity in doing this series. We want to thank all of you who have supported us. Please go buy this book, Second Class Saints, Black Mormons and the Struggle for Racial Equality. And again, if you're wanting, if you're grateful for this series and you haven't donated and you want to see it continue, please please donate to Mormon Stories podcast. Thanks again to everyone who donated to make the series possible. Thanks to Matt and we hope you enjoy this next episode in the series. Take care. Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It's 7-2-2024. And we are here. I'm so excited for today.

Guest [00:02:44] We're.

John Dehlin [00:02:45] We are here with a panel of distinguished guests, black Mormons and or ex Mormons. I don't know how they want to be referred to. They can tell us themselves. We are here to review the first three episodes of the amazing series that we have been running on Mormon stories on the book Second Class Saints, Black Mormons and the Struggle for racial equality by Dr. Matt Harris. We've released three episodes so far. As of today, we've recorded 11. So we've eight in the pipeline. We hope to record another nine more. But it's been a great series with one huge problem. I've been vexed that we haven't been able to have sort of a black historian panelist be a part of the episodes. So what we decided to do was sort of with some frequency after we've released a few of the episodes. Well, we'll bring on black historians when we can. We were really fortunate to have Darren Smith on our most recent episode. I think that's episode 11. But what I decided to do is, was to bring a panel of black Mormon slack slash ex Mormons on to kind of react to, you know, some of the episodes as they're released. So that's what we have today. We have a three amazing black Mormon ex Mormons here to respond to the first three episodes in the series. And, and the three panelists that we have, all of them, I'm happy to say, will be familiar faces to Mormon Stories fans. We have Summer Rain. Hey, Summer.

Summer Rain [00:04:20] Hello, everybody.

John Dehlin [00:04:21] Welcome back.

Summer Rain [00:04:22] Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.

John Dehlin [00:04:25] So thrilled to have you back in studio. We also have Nate Bird from Black Menaces. Hey, Nate.

Nate Bird [00:04:31] Hello, everyone.

John Dehlin [00:04:32] Thanks for, thanks for joining us.

Nate Bird [00:04:34] Of course.

John Dehlin [00:04:35] And then the final panelist that we have joining us from the University of Washington that tried to ban all sports with BYU in the late 60s, early 70s, we have Dr. Darren Smith back. Hey, Darren.

Darren Smith [00:04:49] Hello.

John Dehlin [00:04:49] Thanks so much for joining us today.

Darren Smith [00:04:51] Absolutely, John. Anytime, brother. For you, anytime.

John Dehlin [00:04:54] We're so happy to have you. Okay, well, we've got a lot to cover today because what I've asked you three to do. And by the way, we, we've got a new. We've been playing with some new lighting and some new background. So you'll notice instead of our brick background, we have a blue background today. And then Summer and Nate have kind of nicer bokeh effect backgrounds. You guys let us know. Do you prefer the brick? Do you prefer the Blue. Let us know we've got better lighting. Anyway, we're trying to up our game on Mormon stories. As always, let us know what you think. Anyway, we, we've got a lot to cover today. I've asked each of you to respond. So let's just begin by having each of you remind our audience just a little bit about you and why this topic matters to you so much. And summer, we'll start with you.

Summer Rain [00:05:43] Okay. So I am, my parents are converts to the church. My father joined the church in 1983 when he played in the NFL. He is Ados, American descendant of slavery. Slavery. So this topic in particular with the temple priesthood ban, when it was removed, why it was removed is very, very important to me and my lineage and DNA. I am. Like I said, my parents converted when I was three. So I was raised in the church my whole life. And then I got married in the temple in 2012. Bountiful Temple. I have three kids and I am what they call a pimo, physically and mentally out. My husband is a believing member. And so what works for us is I still attend church, but I raise havoc when I go with my questions. And yeah, that's it. That's where I am.

John Dehlin [00:06:45] All right. And we. You did your own long form Mormon stories episode, right?

Summer Rain [00:06:48] I did, I did. And it was a lot of fun.

John Dehlin [00:06:51] Yeah. All right. And you're. What do you do for a living? Do you want to share that?

Summer Rain [00:06:54] So, yeah, I work for my father, who is the NFL player I was talking about earlier. He is the Burgess Owens, the current Congressman for District 4 and Utah. In Utah. Yes, in Utah. District 4 in Utah. And very proud. He's the first black congressman for Utah when he was elected in 2020. So I work on his campaign side. My official title is senior political advisor, but I help with messaging, public relations, everything on the back end for his campaign. So that's what I do.

John Dehlin [00:07:28] All right. Well, we're thrilled to have you. Thanks for coming. Nate, remind us who you are.

Nate Bird [00:07:34] I'm Nate. I live here in Salt Lake City. I am a member of the Black Menaces on TikTok and Instagram, if you're familiar with them. Mainly behind the scenes now, doing a little bit of stuff here and there and just living life, enjoying life with my wife and, and working, not enjoying that as much, but, you know, it's, it's good as a living. I am also very passionate about the plight of black people both in and out of the LDS Church. And you know, during my time at byu, it was something that I was very vocal about. And I was a full time consultant for byu, just unpaid. They didn't recognize me. Um, but, you know, I enjoyed the. The work that I did there as well.

John Dehlin [00:08:13] All right, do either of you want to talk about your relationship to the church? In, out, anything like that? Do. Do you? Or would you just rather keep that private?

Summer Rain [00:08:23] Oh, I said I was pimo.

John Dehlin [00:08:24] Okay.

Summer Rain [00:08:25] So basically, physically and mentally out.

John Dehlin [00:08:27] Okay.

Summer Rain [00:08:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:28] So you attend. I'm still a member of record.

Summer Rain [00:08:30] Still a member of record. Do not believe any of the truth claims.

John Dehlin [00:08:33] Okay. Nate, do you want to talk about that at all?

Nate Bird [00:08:35] Yeah, for me, I would say I'm still a member of record, but. But I do not practice the LDS faith anymore. I do not believe any of the. The truth claims of it. I talked a little bit about it. I think I was still more undecided when I had done my interview. But now I've reached the point where I, you know, I've done enough research and watched enough Mormon Stories episodes to know that it's not for me.

John Dehlin [00:08:54] Hey, don't blame me.

Nate Bird [00:08:57] Yeah, so, you know, Lord Voldemort convinced me to.

Darren Smith [00:09:01] You heard it first here, folks. You heard it first here.

Nate Bird [00:09:05] Yeah, so I would say that I'm no longer in and just working on, you know, becoming a more spiritual individual than a religious one.

John Dehlin [00:09:13] All right, thanks for being here, Nate and Summer. All right, Darren, you're. You're last. Our audience will know you as well, but tell us a little. You're. Darren is. Is one of the first 30 people I ever interviewed on Mormon Stories. And if you know, we've got over 1900 episodes, so that's saying something. So, Darren, tell us, remind us who you are.

Darren Smith [00:09:33] Hello, everyone. My name is Darren Smith. I have been a member for a minute now, I think over 30 years or so. I no longer practice, and I certainly do not believe the truth claims. And so the people are awesome. I still have lots of affection for my friends who are Mormons and who are those who are still practicing. But me, for me, I no longer participate. Currently, I'm a professor at the University of Washington, and before that I was professor at the University of Memphis, where I taught in the Sociology Department. I'm here in Washington. I'm teaching actually in the department of Family Medicine, primarily teaching PA students how to be good providers. So when I'm not doing that, I'm doing harm reduction work. I work in mental health, mental illness, as a physician assistant. And my area of research of late has been psychedelic work, primarily with African Americans. And harm reduction. And so this is a really fruitful discussion for us to have. And then just let me pause by saying as a longtime member of the church, way back when summer's father was 1983 is when I by 81 is when I came in summer. So to see second generation Mormons and third generation Mormons coming in now, it's a trip to see that. So it's kind of, you know, for a long time I thought I was the only one. So it's nice to see folks who are members and whether they're in or out. So yeah, I'm just kind of, just kind of blown away by that. But still. Anyway, anyway, thank you for having me here again, John. I don't know how many times I've been on this show, but you know, John Dehlin, when John deland interviewed me back in the day, y', all, I was stationed at Fort Rucker. It was long ass interviews I think I got there and I think by the time I got done I was interviewing it was like 11 o' clock at night. I had to be up at like 06:30 in the morning. But those were some of the most fruitful discussions that we had. And people still reach out to me, John, about those discussions made all these years later. So it really made an impact on folks and so thank you for that opportunity. I was grateful to be a part of this and so still am. Huge fan.

John Dehlin [00:11:49] Yeah, I mean this is no disrespect but you're an OG or Mormon stories og Darren, not trying to appropriate anything but you know, oh, go ahead

Darren Smith [00:12:02] now I just said west side for those who don't, you know, it's all good.

Reviewing the Book Second Class Saints

John Dehlin [00:12:08] All right. Okay, well, let's begin. So we're covering three two hour episodes so like we're going to try and cover six hours into. And again we're starting with this book. Please buy it. Please donate to this series@donorbox.org Matt Harris. That's how to see this series continue. So let's just start with just your feelings about this book being created. Just if you could talk about it at a high level and just your, your reaction so far. If you were to like say so far, three chapters in. Two, two, three chapters in. Is this book important to you and would you recommend it and if so, why? So let's start with you, Summer Rain.

Summer Rain [00:12:53] I would highly recommend this to anybody. I would highly recommend this book to members, non members, nevermost people that are out. This is this book. I spoke with Matt Harris like a week ago. And I told him this book for me is on par with Fawn Brody's no Man Knows My History and In Sacred Loneliness for me and learning about more about Joseph Smith and more about polygamy. But because I have such a personal connection to race and what has happened within the church and race, this book was mind blowing. It was mind blowing. And I think the. The biggest part for me is just understanding. Like Darren said, you have friends that are still members of the church. You have friends who are very active in the church. Members. And a lot of them, I do believe, take a lot of the onus on them. For racial issues that have happened in the past and racial issues that are happening in the present, I think it's important to know where it comes from, where it stemmed from. And. And that is the leadership. And what Matt Harris has done with not just tying those together, but also giving black voices a voice in the book is so important. It is so important. So that's. I highly recommend. I think everyone should go on Amazon right now and get a hard copy. I know it is electronic too, but I got a hard copy just so I can highlight things. Every page is mind blowing.

Nate Bird [00:14:36] It is.

John Dehlin [00:14:37] I totally agree. I'm happy to hear you had that experience as well.

Summer Rain [00:14:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:40] I like to say it kind of just shows how the sausage is made. How the sausage was made. And, you know, there won't be a better book written about the priesthood and temple. Band. Band. But this speaks to the LGBT issues today. It speaks to how women have been treated over the years. It just. If you want to know how the first presidency, the prophet, and the quorum of the 12 all interoperate and how. How change happens or doesn't happen, why change happens or doesn't happen.

Summer Rain [00:15:12] It's in this book.

John Dehlin [00:15:13] It's in this book, Right?

Summer Rain [00:15:14] It's in this book. You felt the same way with letters. With letters. With notes. With.

John Dehlin [00:15:18] I mean, with receipts.

Summer Rain [00:15:19] Right, with receipts. Matt Harris has done a phenomenal job.

John Dehlin [00:15:24] Yeah. Yeah. And photos, we should say.

Summer Rain [00:15:26] And photos. And photos. Which we'll show.

John Dehlin [00:15:29] Okay. Nate, anything you want to add to that?

Nate Bird [00:15:31] Yeah. I would say one of the biggest journeys of my adulthood has been like, finding the language to figure out things that are wrong with me or things that I need to work on or just like, things that need to change. Finding the language for that. And I feel like this book is another one of those things that helps me do that. It's almost like when you go to the doctor and they run a bunch of tests to try and find out what's wrong. Then once they find out what's wrong, they can fix it. I feel like this book is kind of like a diagnosis. It really presents a lot of helpful information that hasn't been, like, super out there before, you know, like, about how the church works, how decisions are made, especially major decisions like this. And so being able to get the language for that and have that out in the open, I think that provides a turning point for the church to really have some work to do and for people who read this book, both in the church and out of the church, to have the language to be able to speak to the issues that are going on now.

John Dehlin [00:16:25] Beautiful. Thanks, Nate. Okay, Darren, any. I know that I. I'm pretty sure that Matt worked with you. Collaborate. Well, at least consulted with you. That's right. Y' all have been homies for a while, so.

Darren Smith [00:16:38] Absolutely, absolutely. And. And, you know, and I've read a lot of different books on this subject. I've even contributed to some of the scholarship in this area for years, actually.

John Dehlin [00:16:48] Oh, yeah, you have your book, which

Darren Smith [00:16:50] is interesting, that one. And also the book When Race, Religion and Sport Collide, blacksbyu and Beyond. And so Matt, you know, Matt's work, this book. So this is this. And also Paul Reeves, excellent work. You read Paul Reeves, Religion, Religion of a Different Color. So it's been a lot of different, exceptional scholarship over the last. Probably last 10 years or so, even last maybe 20 years, there's been a surge in. In scholarship, and I would say Mormon race studies. Lots of people who are writing about these are doing some excellent work, from, of course, our dearly departed Armand Moss to even Lester Bush as a breakthrough therapist. I would look at Armand. Not Armand, but for me, Lester Bush's article that he published, was it in look magazine. I can't remember when it was. Back in the dialogue.

John Dehlin [00:17:43] Dialogue, 1973.

Darren Smith [00:17:44] Dialogue, 1973. Dialogue. For me, a pivotal moment in my consciousness and understanding of Mormon race relations. And I think that really set the framework for me and helped me to understand it. So what Matt's book is about, and I'll say this real briefly, I know I've been kind of long winded with it, but I've got so much to say. Matt is an exceptional archivist. I think that's what folks have been commenting on, is the fastidious note taking his historical attention to detail. In fact, I think I have a little. If you look at the back of the book, I think I have a. Is my name on that book somewhere?

Summer Rain [00:18:20] Yep.

Darren Smith [00:18:21] So I read some of the earlier drafts of the book and so, yeah, yeah, you're the.

John Dehlin [00:18:26] You're the final. You're the final blurb.

Darren Smith [00:18:29] Yep, that's right. That's right. So, you know, so it is an excellent piece of scholarship. I'm really happy to see Matt has finally finished it. I mean, he's working this forever, y'. All.

John Dehlin [00:18:39] 15 years.

Darren Smith [00:18:40] 15 years at least. So I'm really happy to see that he has finally brought this to the public domain. But listen, what he's done that others have not done is what John indicated about the sausage, how the sausage made. He really gets into the details of the Brethren and how they operate and how they think about race, which is really an eye opening to me. Now, I did not know some of Spencer Kimball's, you know, post revelatory, you know, racist views that continued and persisted. That really gives me some insight into why it was that after 1978 you still got people teaching about this stuff. Right. So the 1978 was not the definitive end of it, end of the priesthood ban, per se, but for us, it was the beginning of the racist explanations and justifications that continued after 1978. So that was really a real big revelation for me. So bravo. Matt Harris, go out and buy the book. I highly endorse this book and Matt's work. And so he is a. An exceptional historian. So, yeah, wonderful.

John Dehlin [00:19:49] Beautiful. All right, thanks for those summaries. Let's dive in. So in chapter one, it kind of starts talking. It kind of goes a little bit chronologically. So obviously the place to start when you're talking about black Latter Day Saints is with Joseph Smith ordaining several men to the priesthood, black men to the priesthood, including at least Elijah Abel and Walker Lewis. And then it talks about Jane Manning, James, and we'll talk about her in a second. Do any of you have anything to say about what you read in the book about Elijah Abel or Walker Lewis or others, other black men that Joseph Smith would have ordained? Or just general reactions about when you learned about that and how it felt, whether you learned about that early or late in your Mormon experiences. Who wants to go first on that?

Summer Rain [00:20:44] All right, I can say something really fast because my deconstruction, which I talked about on my Mormon stories, started in November 2022 when I reread the essay. It was Race in the Priesthood essay. Race in the Priesthood essay, yes. And it was 2016, 2018, I think it was. I. I don't remember the name, but the year, but that was when I First read it and I'd never heard of Elijah Abel.

John Dehlin [00:21:12] So you've been a member of the church how long for? I should say a black member of

Summer Rain [00:21:16] the church for 30, 30 plus years

John Dehlin [00:21:19] and you would never know.

Summer Rain [00:21:20] I never heard of Elijah Abel that

John Dehlin [00:21:22] Joseph Smith had ordained.

Summer Rain [00:21:24] I never heard that. I never heard that he ordained anybody. And I'd never heard the name Elijah Abel. And I remember very vividly reading that essay the first time. And I broke down in tears because I. It was the first time I ever recognized that there was a temple ban, that it was not just a priesthood ban. And I also.

John Dehlin [00:21:50] What do you mean by temple ban?

Summer Rain [00:21:51] So what I was taught growing up was this was a priesthood ban where black men were not allowed the priesthood. Right. And we don't know why. That's when I was growing up, we didn't know why, but it was reversed, right? We don't know why. But now God said it's okay. What it truly was was a temple ban. If I could just take a second and just put this in perspective for never Mo's and members of the church, we talk about human rights all the time, especially in the political world. We talk about, you know, the right to bear arms or is insurance a right. These are human rights. What this was is an eternal right. We are literally talking about an eternal right, saying that you have the right to believe that the God created all men and women equally and you have a right to return to him. What this was was saying that a group of people, because of something that was done before we were on this earth, we don't know what this group of people were not allowed that right. They were not allowed the right to return to him on a celestial level. Now, when you are a member of the church, the belief is, is that you are endowed with certain ordinances and those ordinances you need to enter the celestial kingdom. Those ordinances were denied a group of people, office social constructs in which we won't even get into, but a group of people, black people, were told, men, women, children, you cannot receive these ordinances and return to him. So when I read that, number one, me being sealed in the temple years before, I am now being told that there were people in my lineage and my DNA that were not allowed, that they were not allowed to be sealed together, they were not allowed these endowments. It was very upsetting. But it was even more upsetting to hear that someone like Elijah Abel was given that and then it was taken

John Dehlin [00:24:11] away because he was a 70, which is like a general authority. For the church.

Summer Rain [00:24:14] And he went on missions.

John Dehlin [00:24:15] Yeah.

Summer Rain [00:24:16] So to be given it by one prophet and then be told, just kidding, that is devastating. And I hope that people understand. To be told, you are given this right to return to God with your family, with your lineage, and then told, just kidding, you are not is devastating. And that's what I felt when I heard the first time about Elijah Abel. I bawled and prayed about it and said, why? What kind of God would do that? So that's my experience with Elijah Abel. And I appreciated Matt kind of going more into that. Sorry, I didn't. I didn't want to take up too much time, but that was my experience hearing about Elijah Abel.

John Dehlin [00:25:01] I just.

Guest [00:25:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:02] And if I can just react to that for a second, like it's another form of erasure, isn't it? Because, like, women, it's like black women weren't even important enough to mention. It's like, oh, well, men are important. So we'll talk about black men being banned from the priesthood, but the fact that women couldn't do. Black women couldn't do temple ordinances. Well, we won't even think about that or mention. I'm. I'm laughing, but it's. It's the way I proxy.

Summer Rain [00:25:29] If they wanted to even be baptized, it was through a white proxy. I mean, we'll talk about Jane. Jane. But this is done by white proxy because she wasn't even allowed to go in the. Let's.

Jane Manning James and Early Black Mormon Experiences

John Dehlin [00:25:40] Let's talk about Jane while we're there. And I know Darren has things about that, but go ahead and say what you want to say about.

Summer Rain [00:25:45] Well, I. I want, you know, I'd like for to hear what everyone else has to say, but Jane, as a black woman, you want to tell our

John Dehlin [00:25:52] audience just a 10 seconds about who she was?

Summer Rain [00:25:55] Sure. She was an early member of the church, black woman. She was very, very close with the Smith, Joseph Smith and his family. She was a member of the church. And then she ended up wanting to be sealed after Joseph's martyrdom. And they would not allow her to be sealed to her family. And so she asked to be sealed to Joseph. And long story short, she was but as a servant or slave from back then. And even that proxy, the sealing ordinance was done by a white woman. They wouldn't even allow her to go into the temple to be sealed to Joseph Smith as a servant for the eternities herself that a white woman go in to be proxy for her.

John Dehlin [00:26:46] And I just have to say, you skipped over or went over quickly the Idea that Jane Manning James was sealed as a slave. And, Darren, I know you had thoughts on that. I muted your mic. But, Darren, do you want to jump in and talk about that idea of a celestial slave with Joseph Smith?

Darren Smith [00:27:02] Yeah. It just speaks to the consciousness of the church leaders at the time, you know, that blacks were debased and uncouth. And what are some of the other language that Brigham Young had used to really define to describe black people? And so, I mean, I'm sure words

John Dehlin [00:27:20] like filthy and loathsome.

Darren Smith [00:27:22] Filthy, Absolutely uncomely. You know, some of the words that was used that everybody who's read anything about Brigham Young know. But. Yeah, so Jane Manning James and Elijah Abel were two. Two early figures in the church who were very much, you know, I would say conflicted or traumatized by these events, by the treatment that they had or what. Or what they could expect from, you know, church authorities with the contact that they had. But let's make no mistake that given their. And there's more to say about Jane Manning James, but the issue, the fact that she stayed in the church and was so devoted and loyal to Joseph Smith. In fact, I think she was Joseph Smith's launderer or laundress, if I'm not mistaken, when she was working with him and living with the family. And so. But there was apparently affection in the Smith family for Jane Manning James. Read some of her accounts. There was definitely some affection there. But to reveal, regard her as less than and perform a ritual with that in mind just illustrates the way in which white folks thought about black people during that timeframe. Underscores it

John Dehlin [00:28:40] when you see, like. Oh, Derek, were you going to say something?

Darren Smith [00:28:43] Oh, just one last point. In fact, what's interesting is that if you look at church leaders, their racial attitudes, they were all kind of all over the place. They weren't really any coherence with. With. With the way. The ways in which they believed about these kinds of things. But certainly in the early. In the early days of the church, the narrative has always been that. That Joseph Smith was much more favorable to black people than. Than his predecessor was.

Guest [00:29:11] And he.

John Dehlin [00:29:12] Successor. You mean his successor, right?

Darren Smith [00:29:14] Yeah. Excuse me. Thank you. His successor was. Yeah. And if you read the accounts between both men, that certainly seems like the case.

John Dehlin [00:29:23] Yeah. Because if you think about, like, those Temple Square movies that tried to portray Joseph Smith, he's, like, not just playing with his kids and a feminist and telling Emma he's gonna sweep and let her go off and rest, but he's, like, frolicking with, with black kids and, like, being kind to black people. And who knows? Maybe he was right. I mean, there's a reason Jane Manning. James loved him, right? So he, I'm sure he was kind to black people on some level.

Darren Smith [00:29:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:49] Y' all have a reaction to that? Like the, the, the image versus what, you know, about the reality of Joseph Smith's treatment of black people.

Nate Bird [00:30:00] I mean, I, I, I don't know a lot about maybe, you know, his actual views, because I feel like it's been very, it's been very muddied. But I mean, being frank, slave masters were affectionate of their slaves.

John Dehlin [00:30:14] You know, they, to the point of having children. Exactly.

Nate Bird [00:30:17] Like, they had them stay in their house with them and, you know, pour their, their, you know, the kids would, would serve their table and, you know, the women would cook in the kitchen and. But they still viewed them as less than, right? They were still less than human. Kind of more like an intelligent pet. Right. And so I don't know what Joseph Smith, you know, what his views were specifically being from the north, but they, I doubt that they were wildly progressive for that time, you know, so I'm sure that he was, you know, very fond of, of Jane and her family and whoever else. I'm sure he was kind enough. But we also know that there was a darker side to him.

Summer Rain [00:30:49] So, yeah, I think that it's been, it's historical that he was, he was not necessarily. He was not pro slavery, but he also was not an abolitionist. There is a difference, and I think that that is what needs to be understood. There were abolitionists within the church that were leaders that were anti slavery and very against slavery. But that is different than, you know, what, slavery can be better or, you know, I don't, I'm not for it, but also not doing action against it. So I, I think that, you know, Joseph Smith, he's not, he's no Brigham Young. He isn't.

John Dehlin [00:31:34] But at the same time, he's not super duper racist.

Summer Rain [00:31:36] Oh, yeah. He's not super duper racist. Yeah.

Darren Smith [00:31:43] Oh, sorry. I was going to say that. Oh, go ahead. Go ahead, Nate.

John Dehlin [00:31:45] Go ahead, Darren. And then Nate.

Darren Smith [00:31:47] Okay, I was just going to say there was. There are other accounts of Brigham, other council of Joseph Smith, encounters with black people. I think it was one account when he ended up paying, he had to pay. He, a gentleman didn't have enough money for some carriage and that Joseph Smith stepped in and paid that for that man. There seems to be some, you know, I mean, I don't think we know a lot about his. His affection toward. We can only assume that he was affection toward Jane Mangend.

Guest [00:32:13] Right.

Darren Smith [00:32:13] And him playing with children. So this just seems that he had a better.

Guest [00:32:16] His.

Darren Smith [00:32:16] His disposition was better. But make no mistake. And I think. I think, Nate, you kind of raised this point. He was as racist as the rest of them. I mean, his. Look at his. His. His president, his political campaign. When he tried to run for president, his platform called for recolonization. I don't want to talk much about that. You may have get into that in another episode, perhaps, but. So he certainly harbored racist views, but people can harbor racist views and be just as kind as can be, I. E. Mormons. Right. So many Mormons walk around with these racist views and actually, you know, kindly and nice to folk, but they still have these racist views.

Nate Bird [00:32:57] Oh, yeah. I was gonna say also, you know,

John Dehlin [00:32:59] we're all laughing in here, right?

Darren Smith [00:33:02] I mean, what's the.

Guest [00:33:03] I mean, what.

Darren Smith [00:33:03] I mean, did I say something that was. That wasn't true?

Nate Bird [00:33:06] You just weren't expecting that violence. Beautiful Tuesday.

Darren Smith [00:33:10] Okay. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:33:13] What were you gonna say?

Nate Bird [00:33:14] I was just gonna say, you know, Joseph Smith also wrote the Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price. You know, those are directly from his mind. And so, you know, he details. I think maybe his more intimate feelings about black people overall, that may not have played into his behavior towards. He may have had, you know, just idea of, like, being kind to everyone. But on a deeper level, he definitely harbored some views of black people being less than or cursed, what have you.

John Dehlin [00:33:36] I mean, he laid the train tracks for the curse of Cain being adopted by Brigham Young in the sense that it's in. I mean, he could. I like to say Joseph Smith couldn't create scripture that didn't involve the cursing with dark skin. Like the Book of Mormon, Book of Moses, Book of Abraham, Doctrine of Covenants, they all endorse the idea that God curses people with dark skin 100%. He's like, say what you want about Joseph Smith, he's four for four. Right?

Summer Rain [00:34:05] And we'll talk about this a little later. But, you know, later on, leaders are kind of disagreeing about, okay, are black people cursed? Is it the curse of Cain? Is it because they were inferior or less valiant in heaven at the end of the day, or were they neutral against the war against Satan? The end of the day, you're saying they're inferior. So I think that's what we're talking about right now. It doesn't really matter if you're Saying black people are cursed, or if you're saying we were less valiant, which is why we have dark skin, at the end of the day, you're saying that there is a problem with this group of people. And Joseph had thought, believed that there was a problem, period. It may not have been as bad as others, but it wasn't as good.

Darren Smith [00:34:54] And I think all of this illustrates, just for me, listening to you Summer talk about this, it illustrates to me the deeper white supremacist thinking that pervaded the first presidency and also the verbal gymnastics that they did to try to bend and flex into finding out some kind of a theory on race religio theory that would stick within the Mormon canon. I mean, these people were trying to find any way, any way they could. And all of it. If you look at the 1930s, 1920s, 1930s, you've got this eugenics movement afoot, and you've got members of the. Members of the leadership actually highly. I mean, these people aren't insulated from what's happening in the larger, broader society. So they're getting this information from other sources about eugenics. You see a lot of eugenics thinking, even in Joseph Smith, this idea that one race is superior to another. And so, and this is a continual theme, and of course, this is not unique to Mormons. I want to say that first and foremost, Mormons aren't the only one, only ones that walk around harboring racist feelings toward black people. Evangelical churches were very, very notorious for that as well. Mormons have their own unique twist to some of these racial myths and folklores that existed that forbaded black people to worship in their spaces. That's why black people form their own churches to avoid, you know, the kinds of animus they get when worshiping with white people, because it's difficult to worship with white people. So that's when I said earlier that all white people are racist, and I've said that before, that's what I'm talking about is the fact that white people walk around with white privilege and they. And they swim around in a soup of white supremacy and they're largely unaware of it, but yet the people who are affected by it are definitely aware of it. Right? Definitely feel the impacts.

John Dehlin [00:36:46] Beautiful. Thanks, Darren. Okay. Should we move to Brigham Young next? I didn't give you a chance, Nate, to talk about Elijah Abel. Is there anything you want to say about that?

Elijah Abel and the Origins of the Priesthood Ban

Nate Bird [00:36:57] I didn't learn about it growing up. I didn't learn about Elijah Abel until my mission. And of course, I didn't learn at the priest? No, I did learn that the priesthood was taken away. There was this apologist that I used to listen to called Mr. Mormon. He would do all the topics that didn't make sense, and he said, oh, yeah, Elijah Abel had the priesthood and then it was taken away. But also God gave the priesthood to the Levites and then, you know, took it away from everybody else. So it's basically the same thing. And that was like. I was like, well, okay, that doesn't make a lot of sense, but I'll take it for now. And, you know, then coming home from my mission, I learned more about Jane Manning, James Green Flake, and, you know, these other people in history, Q. Walker Lewis. But yeah, I did not learn any of that growing up.

John Dehlin [00:37:32] Yeah. Yeah. And that's one of the important things that will come out throughout the book is that I think progressive Liberal Mormons in 2024 want to think that the Brethren just somehow forgot about Elijah Abel and that just kind of went down the memory hole with the past administration. But, you know, Joseph Fielding, Joseph F. Smith knew. Joseph Fielding Smith knew. B H Roberts knew, all the prophets knew because, because Elijah Abel's children and grandchildren stayed active and faithful. It was like this inconvenient black man that just couldn't disappear.

Summer Rain [00:38:07] Right.

John Dehlin [00:38:08] So they, they, he was always like, what do we do with this problem of knowing that Joseph Smith gave a man the priesthood and made him a 70? And that's, you know, so the, the Brethren now can't say that they didn't know they knew. Right.

Summer Rain [00:38:23] Yeah. And, and back then, the, the way to fix that problem was to say it was a mistake that Joe Smith mistakenly gave it to Elijah, which they completely made up. Mistakenly.

John Dehlin [00:38:35] Joseph Smith that claimed that.

Summer Rain [00:38:36] Yeah, he mistakenly gave it to him.

Nate Bird [00:38:40] Claiming that you're in fact mistakes is interesting.

Darren Smith [00:38:44] They've been using verbal, verbal gymnastics as long as I can remember to, to Nate's point. This idea of equating one thing with another goes back to what you talked about, John. Presentism.

Guest [00:38:57] Right.

Darren Smith [00:38:57] There's an awful lot of presentism that exists within the Mormon Church. You want to explain what that is, John? Presentism?

John Dehlin [00:39:03] Oh, I think it's just the idea that we, a historian, would say we erroneously apply people in the past, our current moral standards, to historical figures in the past, that it's unfair to expect someone around the time of Christ to be pro LGBT. They probably didn't even have the word gay 2,000 years ago. So if that's an example of, like, they try and tell people today not to judge people 200 years ago by today's moral standards. That's what I understand prisonism to be.

Darren Smith [00:39:34] That's right. And I use a metaphor called apples to apples. Right. Just, you know, comparing apples. You know, it's, it's, you can't, you know, it's not, it's not possible. Mormons also engaging in a lot of hagiography as well. Another historian term where you are, where you attribute positive attributes to a historical figure even though they did terrible things.

Guest [00:39:56] Yeah.

Darren Smith [00:39:56] Or you only look at the most positive things about them. And so the church has been notorious for hagiography. You know, they only, only want to address, you know, in any general conference, the most positive things they can, they can conjure and not look at the things that are really vexing the church. These controversies and these social issues that. In which society continues to change and the church has to change with it and some of the resistance that goes along with it.

John Dehlin [00:40:20] Yeah, absolutely. Okay, well, let's go to Brigham Young. And he's, you know, summer's already laughing. You know, Brigham Young is on record as saying some of the most vile, awful, horrendous, racist things. What surprised me in the book, that maybe it was new information for me or maybe I just forgot was that there was a. There were several years where Brigham Young didn't implement the priesthood ban. That it went several years until what? Can you guys fill in the blank of what the book tells us of what got under Brigham Young's skin that made him decide that he wanted to implement the priesthood ban?

Brigham Young's Racism and Interracial Marriage

Summer Rain [00:40:58] Do y' all remember interracial marriage?

John Dehlin [00:41:01] Yeah, I don't. I remember the guy's name, but he learned about a black Mormon who he had some reason to believe was wanting to sleep with white Mormon women and

Summer Rain [00:41:11] that trying to practice polygamy. From what I remember, from what I remember, he was married to a white woman and was trying to practice polygamy with other white women.

John Dehlin [00:41:21] And that was what made Brigham Young. That's what sent Brigham Young over the edge and made him implement the priesthood ban. What do you think about that?

Nate Bird [00:41:30] Wasn't it? Was it Q. Walker Lewis?

Summer Rain [00:41:33] I think so.

John Dehlin [00:41:34] Was it? I, I, I'll have to look in the book, but why don't you talk about it first and then I'll look up. I'll look it up.

Nate Bird [00:41:39] Okay. I don't want to use his name if it was wrong, but I feel like in the story, he, whoever the gentleman was, was also, like a member of the bishopric or something, weren't they? Or like, in A position of power. And they were kind of using that to, like, try and. And, you know, encourage spiritual wifery for themselves. And we're teaching some disavowed teachings and, you know, a few other things. We're teaching the concept of heavenly mothers.

John Dehlin [00:42:03] Okay, wait, I found it.

Nate Bird [00:42:04] I found it.

John Dehlin [00:42:05] Sorry. Thanks. So it says this is on. This is in the book. This is on page five of the book. It says he didn't explain why he made such an abrupt announcement, but there were rumors swirling throughout the church that a black Latter Day Saint named West William McCary had taken a polygamous white wife, which angered Brigham Young. That's how the priesthood band started.

Summer Rain [00:42:31] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nate Bird [00:42:34] Interesting.

Darren Smith [00:42:34] So I envisioned Brigham Young sitting down with smoke coming out of his ear. How dare, how dare they? How dare they?

John Dehlin [00:42:45] I mean, like, there's just so many things that are wrong with that. Why don't you go. I remember the movie Malcolm X. I mentioned this in the episode, like something out of the book of the movie Malcolm X. Someone, some white FBI agent or whatever just says nothing. Strike fears in the heart of a white man. And the idea of a black man sleeping with a white woman like that is. That is not just the source of the Mormon priesthood and temple ban, but it's what made it continue all the way through the seventies, every single decade. It's like Harold B. Lee or Joe, but. But black men might sleep with white women. Like, that's literally the. The backbone of the priesthood in temple.

Darren Smith [00:43:23] Black men. And what's funny is that black men, Black men been sleeping with white women and every other kind of woman since the dawn of time. So.

John Dehlin [00:43:30] And I mean, white white men. How many white slave owners slept with their black women? And what. Why is that not outrageous? Right?

Darren Smith [00:43:39] Well, but yeah, but the conditions that that happened, that occurred were not. Not equally, you know, yo. Raped and so on. Yeah, right. It wasn't constituent, but. But, but, yeah, but yeah, that. That really sent the brethren over the edge. And I just remember, you know, being at Ricks College and BYU Idaho, for those who don't know who are old schoolers out there and having. I remember somebody, one of the parents called me up one day and said, are you Darren Smith? I said, yes, that would be me. They go, I don't want you dating my daughter. It just came out. I don't want you dating my daughter. I said, who is this? Tell me who he is. And I said, shouldn't your daughter be telling me these things? And he's like, no, I'm her dad. And you should go back to Africa. That's what he told me. I said. I was, like, blown away. And he starts spouting off this racial folklore by Brigham Young and so on and so forth. I had it happen to me several times in the church. It really opened my eyes to just the. The widespread nature of this thinking in the Mormon faith and a large part of it being driven by some of the early church leaders and their interpretations of Scripture.

John Dehlin [00:44:56] Nate, any thoughts on that?

Nate Bird [00:44:58] I think just the fact that Brigham Young was that angry about it, I think that was probably when his personal belief started to bleed into the position of power that he held, and he started to try and implement some of his personal beliefs as revelation. Because why else would you be that angry about it if you didn't, like, have a secret, or maybe not secret, but if you didn't have an internal disdain or hatred for black people, a fear of. Of black people? So, yeah, once you heard about that, I'm sure that he. He started to think of ways, maybe conscious or not to. To eliminate that from happening in the future.

Summer Rain [00:45:34] Yeah, I think something that I learned most from Matt Harris, the episodes and the book is cultural. The culture is so important because Mormonism wasn't formed in a. In a vacuum. And so to me, it's interesting. It's so interesting. So I was just talking to my stepfather about this last night with black Men, because he's an actor and in Hollywood, and he was just talking about how even up to the 90s, black actors were not allowed to be love interests. You just didn't see it. They were allowed to be funny, they're allowed to be athletic. But it was. You didn't cross that line.

John Dehlin [00:46:18] Cole's not dating Katharine Hepburn. Absolutely.

Summer Rain [00:46:20] And it. And he was pointing out that this was through the 90s. I mean, he was. He was an actor around this time. And it's just. I'm hearing this right now and just kind of thinking about how he was saying there was such a thing, threat to Hollywood at the time and white directors, and to see a black man as a love interest, as a human. Right. And so it's just interesting that we're Talking about the 1800s, right. And there's this prevalence of, as Darren said earlier, eugenics of this pure bloodline. And it may not be spoken, but it's kind of understood. We don't want to look at this race and allow them to come over here and muddy our waters. And so what I love about this book is that he shows not only what's going on in Mormonism, but what's happening in the country to show that it's more of a cultural thing. Mormons are going along. The leaders are going along with the culture and what's happening around them. I know that within the faith, we want to believe that, you know, prophets see around corners, but unfortunately we see that they kind of went along with the culture at the time. And so, yeah, that's what I think of is that, like, Nate, there was a deep disdain, but it was a cultural disdain. I mean, it wasn't crazy why Brigham Young was upset and a lot of people felt that way. And that's why the band lasted and still do, which is why the band lasted as long as it lasted and it implemented the first place. The Saints weren't saying, what are you talking about? We're going to pray about this and make sure they were like, yeah, keep them separate.

Darren Smith [00:48:17] Some of these, I would add these larger cultural notions that Matt brings out in the book is to really illustrate and to really illustrate that point that church leaders are influenced by larger cultural events happening in society. They're not immune from those things, and they do influence them. I think he does a nice job of discussing how presidents or prophets or lead church leaders come to understand what they know about race and the consensus building that they have to do amongst them. And the differing opinions they have amongst themselves about these issues was really quite revealing in the book as well. Yeah, the different cast of characters, cast of characters who were pro black or anti black. I mean, there's really quite apparent, and

John Dehlin [00:49:06] viewers and listeners, you're going to read in future chapters or here in future podcast episodes, the discussion of the Bennion Report, which is this report that the church asks an apostle, Adam Bennion to, like, study the, quote, the Negro question. And this is like in 1952. And it's the same type of research that like Joseph Fielding Smith and Joseph F. Smith did in the 1910s. And every time in the. In the 20th century, the church leaders try to find the basis for the priesthood ban. They don't find a revelation. They don't find it really in scripture, even though there's, you know, things that they can base it upon. And they don't even find a band with Joseph Smith. They just magically appears to Brigham Young, again, the reason why is because the origin wasn't revelation. It was Brigham Young's fear that a black man would sleep with a Mormon white woman. And so this is a really important point anyway. Brigham Young said a lot of other awful things and before we get into the one drop rule. I know Summer rain, you wanted to talk about just Brigham Young's statements around what happens if. If a white man or woman, as a Mormon, marries a black man or woman. Basically, Brigham Young statements about interracial marriage.

Summer Rain [00:50:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:50:29] Did you. Do you. Do you want to set that up or what do you.

Summer Rain [00:50:32] I mean, really, really quickly when I. So. So I've talked about this in my episode, but my husband was the first Mormon LDS member that I've ever dated. I dated lots before, like lots of people, but never a member of the church. And he is white. And so when I met him in New York, I had actually heard after we got married, thoughts from Kimball about interracial marriage, but never dug into it. When I recently, in the episode, heard about Brigham Young's speech that he gave to the Utah legislator. There's a lot to unpack there. But with interracial dating and marriage specifically, he said that they are candidates for blood atonement. That if somebody were to kill them, the white man, white woman and black man, black woman, that God would forgive them, that they would be forgiven because it is better that they are blood atoned than to continue in their marriage or relationship. And he mentioned the children that come from that. That was tough.

John Dehlin [00:51:50] Yeah. The quote. I'll just read it, shall I? This is Brigham Young. Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed. Oh, my gosh, chosen seed. Mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty under the law of God is death on the spot. Right. Isn't there a quote about, like, sticking a javelin through people? Like. Like. It's some gruesome stuff.

Summer Rain [00:52:19] It's some gruesome stuff. And he continues to talk about the children as well. And then he says, I know this might not sound great because he knows how radical and extreme it sounds even to members, but he says, you know, sorry, that's the way it is. And God has told me that this is okay, so.

John Dehlin [00:52:39] And Matt's book also mentions that if. If a white person sleeps with the black person, somehow through osmosis, the white person absorbs the curse of King.

Summer Rain [00:52:49] I haven't gotten to that chapter yet.

Darren Smith [00:52:53] So much of this is so damn ridiculous, you know, but yet we have to talk about this silly stuff. But it's. But people actually, this is. This is. This is a trip. Because people who actually fall for these kinds of things, right, you really wonder, you know, they fall for anything like goblins and witchcraft and Stuff, but at any rate, it's just these people's thinking about race. It's just mind blowing. Absolutely mind blowing. The harshness of it. So you mentioned how this sound, how this was a harsh pronouncement by Brigham Young, you know, but remember, it's coming from a harsh member of a haplogroup, right, that has been killing folks and pillaging folks and robbing folks and colonizing in the name of Christ and then taking shit that ain't theirs for since as long as Europeans have been, you know, around. And I think Europeans only make what, 5% of the.5% of the population, and yet they control damn near every. Every aspect. So this is not this. The point I'm trying to make is Brigham Young. And you make this point really nice summer. His ideas and Matt's take of his ideas were not new. It's just the extremeness of it and the outspoken nature of it is quite shocking. And I imagine a lot of members of the church don't even know, don't even know about what Brigham Young says or don't want to know about what Brigham Young said because they haven't been confront their own existence in the church. And it's a very tough things, tough thing for folks to do, especially white folks to do.

John Dehlin [00:54:23] Nothing to add on Brigham Young?

Darren Smith [00:54:24] Nope.

Nate Bird [00:54:25] Nothing else.

John Dehlin [00:54:25] It is a little wild that the church, I mean, there's a. There's a point of view that says, isn't it crazy, the church hasn't changed the name of its universities to be named after someone else because they're tearing down statues all over the place. You know, of like Confederate generals and, you know, that sort of thing. And no more Confederate flags. But like Bram Young's name remains on the universities, you know, they ain't changing it.

Summer Rain [00:54:50] Yeah, they'd have to acknowledge. They'd have to acknowledge what he said and did before they could do that. And they. That's a little bit a step too far.

Darren Smith [00:54:59] That's right.

Nate Bird [00:55:01] He told me that it was too expensive.

Darren Smith [00:55:02] Oh, you know what? You know, I agree with that too. I agree with that too.

Nate Bird [00:55:08] It wasn't even what I was talking about. I just mentioned it. He's like, well, that fall, before you go any further, it's too expensive.

Darren Smith [00:55:15] Spoken from a pew. Spoken from, spoken from the perspective of a. Of a pure capitalist by thinking about that. But then again, he's a bean counter. He has to think about things like that. It would be.

Nate Bird [00:55:26] You got to change the stationary eyes, you feel me?

John Dehlin [00:55:29] Can I just note that the church Used to have the brand Mormon. Used to have all the websites. Mormon. And it did a massive brand name change to its own core identity that cost billions. And it. It didn't even sneeze. It was just like Russell Nelson says, it's a victory for Satan. He used the word Mormon, and within a year, it's all gone. Like, they can do it. They can make a big change.

Summer Rain [00:55:53] And we just talked about Rick's college. It's no longer Rick.

John Dehlin [00:55:57] That's a good point.

Summer Rain [00:55:57] So what's. What's going on here?

John Dehlin [00:55:59] That's a good boy. That's a good.

Darren Smith [00:56:01] For black people is, you know, I can't do this for black people. I do for everybody else, but I can't. Black folks now.

John Dehlin [00:56:09] Okay. Anything else you want to say about.

Summer Rain [00:56:13] I just. I want people to look up that speech and hear it and process it and process it.

Darren Smith [00:56:21] Basically. Basically, I'm a summarize speech for y'. All. He's telling y' all to kill yourself if you dare sleep with a person of color. That's what brother's trying to say. So your children, all y' all can kill yourself. That's what he's saying.

Summer Rain [00:56:33] That's what he's saying. And then he also says that there will never be a man of African descent that will rule over him or his brethren, whether in Utah or on a federal level. So my dad's kind of like a middle finger to that. But there's a lot. There's a lot in those speeches, so I would. I would advise anybody to check them out. Don't do it. You know, don't change anything if you don't want to. But you should know, when I was

John Dehlin [00:57:01] growing up, most faithful. Oh, go ahead, Darren.

Darren Smith [00:57:03] Oh, no, please, please.

John Dehlin [00:57:05] I was going to say, when I was growing up, most faithful Mormons had a copy of the entire Journal of Discourses set in their libraries. And it was like 28, I don't know, dozens of volumes of books, which were basically all the general conference talks from, like, Joseph Smith until whenever they stopped doing it and we would all quote from it. It was all in the curriculum. And then when the Internet starts coming online, all of a sudden the church in its correlation department says, ixnay on the Earl of Discourses. Say, you know what I mean? And they made it illegal for the church curriculum to quote General Discourses because of a lot of these crazy statements from Brager Young. Right.

Summer Rain [00:57:45] So that's it? Yeah, that's it with. With good old Brigham.

The One Drop Rule and Its Theological Roots

John Dehlin [00:57:48] Okay. All right, well, we're not done With Brigham. Because we got to do the one drop rule.

Summer Rain [00:57:52] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:57:53] So anybody want to summarize the one drop rule?

Summer Rain [00:57:56] I will.

John Dehlin [00:57:57] Okay, Darren, go for it.

Darren Smith [00:57:58] It's so damn ridiculous. Okay, so it. So the one drop rule is a belief that. And just again, not unique to Mormons, but a belief that if. If a person of color, my person, African American, or an African of African descent, marry somebody or has or has any relationships with a person of color, they automatically, in Mormon language, become a member of that disaffected group like African Americans. So if you have one drop of Negro blood in you, then you are not entitled to the blessings of the celestial kingdom.

John Dehlin [00:58:38] And you're subject to the ban. Right.

Darren Smith [00:58:39] And you're subject to the ban and eventually exaltation. So this is a big deal for. For members who are true, you know, black members who are, you know, trying to find. Who find Mormonism attractive. And a lot of black people do find Mormonism attractive as a very attractive religious organism. I mean, I mean, they do, you know, the strong commitments to family, family values and what have you. The family values also is a very political position too. You think about Republicanism, right. Who likes to. Republicans like to tout the idea of family value. So it fits very nicely into this nice political box too, that you can check off with, with, With Mormonism and so on. Are we still calling ourselves Mormons or. We are. We have.

John Dehlin [00:59:19] You don't throw the term on this show. I still like using the word Mormon, but these Latter Day Saints get offended by that.

Darren Smith [00:59:26] Yeah. I'm from the old school, so with that. So. Yeah. But anyway. Yeah, that's all I have to say on it.

John Dehlin [00:59:35] All right. Yeah. And I guess it's worth saying, no, Negro blood is not a thing. Is that fair to say? Like that's not a thing. Like we all have it. Any old. Anything I want to say about that?

Darren Smith [00:59:47] Thank you. They would, you know, they would.

John Dehlin [00:59:48] Go ahead, Nate.

Nate Bird [00:59:49] And then, Darren, I was in. Africa is the cradle of civilization, so.

Darren Smith [00:59:52] That's right. Thank you, brother.

Summer Rain [00:59:54] Civilization.

John Dehlin [00:59:54] So the earliest humans were black and then we're all descendants from them, is that right? Not, Not Missouri. It's Africa.

Darren Smith [01:00:03] Thank you. I was going to mention it. Brigham Young will roll over in his grave right now.

Summer Rain [01:00:08] I was about to say the same African brother. You.

Darren Smith [01:00:11] You got, you have. You were. So the oldest haplogroup that's been discovered is a five foot, whatever or four foot, whatever African woman around 100, 240,000 years ago is the longest. They think it. Perhaps it was. But that particular haplogroup, the mitochondrial DNA contained within that individual, has populated modern humans. Other humans died off, but this particular haplogroup survived. And so we all share that empty DNA. So even. Even the host of this. This podcast is African.

Nate Bird [01:00:48] So when you diff.

Darren Smith [01:00:49] When you. Yeah, yes, that's right, brother. You.

John Dehlin [01:00:51] So when you. When you.

Darren Smith [01:00:53] So when Brigham Young is dissing on Africans and African descent and all. And all the church, church authorities, they're really dissing on themselves because they all are doggone African in the end.

Nate Bird [01:01:06] Yeah.

Summer Rain [01:01:07] So really what. What we find out is it's a social construct. It's not even real. It's. This is. People are being denied something, and they're not even real. And for me, this episode was tough because my father grew up in the segregated South. I know all about Jim Crow. I know all about the one drop rule. I've known it as black history.

John Dehlin [01:01:30] So it was a thing outside of Mormonism.

Darren Smith [01:01:32] Oh, the one drop rule.

Summer Rain [01:01:33] A thousand percent one drop rule is what dictated a lot of state rules during.

John Dehlin [01:01:40] Oh, whether you could vote. Jim. Jim Crow stuff.

Summer Rain [01:01:43] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:01:43] Interracial marriage. What's that?

Darren Smith [01:01:45] Right.

Nate Bird [01:01:45] The paper bag test. If you were lighter than a paperback, then you could vote in some places.

John Dehlin [01:01:49] If you were dark. Oh, wait, they would explain that again. If you were what?

Nate Bird [01:01:54] So you hold up like a brown paper bag, like a lunch sack. And if you were darker than that, then you were considered black, like, depending on the area that you were in, like, you couldn't vote.

John Dehlin [01:02:02] I am speechless.

Summer Rain [01:02:03] And there's also the. The pencil rule that you put a pencil in your hair and if it falls right out, then you pass.

John Dehlin [01:02:11] You're not making this up?

Summer Rain [01:02:13] No, this. This is where the racial passing. Right. This is where we get into that, where when you start to realize that there are people that are biracial and mixed race, they had to figure out other ways. So, I mean, this is black history. I've known this all my life. The one drop rule. So to hear that the church instituted it within the faith was very hard pill for me to swallow because I did not know that it was institutionalized within the LDS faith. I've heard about it in the South, Southern states all my life. But to hear I'm part of a faith, that this was. They said, yeah, let's go ahead and adopt this rule. That was tough.

Darren Smith [01:02:57] I think this is. This is a. You see this in evangelical face. You see it in orthodox Jewish face as well. These generally white conservative Catholics as well. You know, Orthodox Catholics are very much have had a history of exclusion. So these. So the elder. And this goes back to your original point, Summer, about how culture, the church is influenced by. By the outside events that are occurring. This is exactly the. The point that we're trying to get at, that the one drop rule was something that was pervasive in larger society, but just Mormons adopted it and put their own little accent on it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:41] And. And, you know, we talk about the fact that. And. And the Mormon apologist would say that the brethren were products of their time, which is true. Darren, you talked about presentism, that we can't apply today's morals to the past, which is true. The problem is that supposedly Heavenly Father and Jesus, they don't change. And because Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and John Taylor and Wilford Woodruff and Lorenzo Snow and Joseph F. Smith and all of the Mormon prophets claimed that they were getting their instructions directly from God and Jesus, then that's why they have some splaining to do because, you know, starting with Joseph Smith, the whole idea was that God was speaking through them. So which is it? Either God's a racist or you're. You're not speaking for God. Right.

Summer Rain [01:04:37] So we go with God's a racist.

John Dehlin [01:04:40] So dark.

Summer Rain [01:04:41] I mean, it is, but that's what was said at the B1 event. I. I mean, I was there, and I remember hearing Elder Oaks say, we don't know. Why you pretty much ask God.

Darren Smith [01:04:52] I mean, hear that?

Summer Rain [01:04:54] I mean, heaven forbid we. We say, you know what? These guys were wrong and we now know better. No, it's. It's God. It's God.

John Dehlin [01:05:04] And doesn't the race in the priesthood essay basically say, yeah, we don't know.

Nate Bird [01:05:09] Trust God's trying and. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:10] Wait, what?

Nate Bird [01:05:11] Basically like, trust God's coming? That's also what they said about David O. McKay not being able to lift the band, that he went to God and God told him it wasn't time yet.

Summer Rain [01:05:18] So I've heard that all my life.

Darren Smith [01:05:21] Heard it. That's a very prevalent. It's kind of a.

John Dehlin [01:05:26] It's kind of a heinous thing to push your racism onto God, isn't it?

Nate Bird [01:05:31] I mean, it's pretty standard.

John Dehlin [01:05:34] I'm surprised. Right. Because I feel like the Southern Baptist

Nate Bird [01:05:37] Convention, the Crusades, like, it goes back to the end of time.

Darren Smith [01:05:41] I always blame God. God is a very powerful. I mean, in the book, like that movie, the book of Book of Eli with the one that Denzel Washington did.

Summer Rain [01:05:51] Yeah.

Darren Smith [01:05:52] You know, and, you know, the whole point of the film, real Briefly, is that if I can, if I get this book and the book that they were talking about was the Bible, if I have all the books in the world, if I have the Bible, then I can control people's minds. Right. That's what the whole. And it's kind of eerily. It's like what. So it really is kind of. It makes you think about, you know, the degree of mind control that goes on with. With. With the use of God and how God is used and, you know, and misused as well.

Nate Bird [01:06:21] So.

John Dehlin [01:06:22] Yeah, it's why religion has been called the opiate of the masses. Right. It lullifies, it dulls the brains of the masses. Right.

Summer Rain [01:06:31] And I do. I do want to make a point too, that Matt Harris did a great job in saying that although this is prevalent among other religions, Mormonism is the only religion that codified it in a way that said that this was something due to premortal.

John Dehlin [01:06:51] Yeah.

Summer Rain [01:06:52] So all these other faiths might be racist, but we were the only faith that said it is due to something that happened before we even came to the earth. So it was institutionalized.

Darren Smith [01:07:04] And it flies in the face of the canon of Mormonism. I mean, all of this is contradictory to Mormon. Mormon theology, right. We're talking about in the Book of Mormon, there's scriptures to talk about. We're all. All are like unto God. And you got, you know, reference. But you also have references in. In the Pearl of Great Price also that. That cast the castigate that presumably, presumably that were used to castigate black people. Right. And justify why they were. This presumably cursed. This curse existed. So you've got this really this odd, you know, mix of metaphors going on in the church where you've got some people who are saying one thing and doing another and others who are. Who are, you know, not buying it. I mean, just really. And it puts black people in the middle of this. Of this tension and that black people have to decide, well, I'm going to be on this side of this tension of this particular debate or this side of this particular debate that white people are having about them, about us as black people. Right.

John Dehlin [01:08:05] Which.

Darren Smith [01:08:06] Where do we fall in on these two extremes? And so that makes it really difficult for black people. And that's part of the trauma, I think, that. That African Americans in the church have to. Have to.

Summer Rain [01:08:17] And the cognitive dissonance, the cognitive dissonance that we have to be part of. I mean, I'm in primary learning. Man shall be punished for their own sins and not Adam's transgression But then I'm hearing

Darren Smith [01:08:32] black people are. I mean, just.

The Book of Mormon, Race, and Cognitive Dissonance

Summer Rain [01:08:33] Yeah, it doesn't make sense. But there's got to be a cognitive dissonance. It's figuring out, how do I make this make sense? Well, it's got to be God. He's the only one that can't speak for himself.

Darren Smith [01:08:45] That's right.

Summer Rain [01:08:46] Can't answer the question.

John Dehlin [01:08:48] This makes me want to ask you guys. You know, the Book of Mormon isn't specifically talking about people of African descent, but on the one hand, it's got God cursing Lamanites with dark skin because of their wickedness and to make them loathsome to the white Nephites. But it also has got the scriptures that say that God is not a respecter of persons, or they're all like unto God or whatever. And so there's this modern Mormon apologetic tendency to then say either one of two things. Either. No, no, no. It was Nephi who was racist, or it was Alma who was racist, or it was Helaman that was racist. That wasn't God. That was the personal prejudices of the Book of Mormon prophets allowing their prejudice to bleed into the scripture. That's version one. Version two is like, oh, no, it wasn't black skin. It was like spiritual countenance that was dark, or it was tattoos, or it was like animal skins that were darker. But because the Book of Mormon says all are like unto God or God is no respecter of persons or whatever it is, then when it talks about a skin of blackness in the Book of Mormon, it can't be literal. It's got to mean something like tattoos or animal skin or a spirit, dark spiritual countenance. I want to give each of a chance to respond to that apologetic.

Summer Rain [01:10:15] So I want to hear Nate's experience with that. Because when I was growing up, it was always skin. I mean, I can.

John Dehlin [01:10:23] Human skin, right?

Summer Rain [01:10:24] Yeah. This. Their skin was darkened. I mean, that was the curse.

John Dehlin [01:10:27] Yeah.

Summer Rain [01:10:28] So I'd like to hear if you heard different, you know, if that this whole tattoo thing, I mean, tattoos were a no for a while.

John Dehlin [01:10:36] And this is mainstream Mormon apologists given these excuses, Nate.

Nate Bird [01:10:40] I mean, When I was nine years old, I was sitting in Sunday School Volume 9, and the little girl in the class asked, you know, when we all go to heaven, will Nate be white? And so I don't think she was. I don't think she was talking about getting tattooed white.

John Dehlin [01:10:51] Baby, is your cap.

Nate Bird [01:10:53] Yeah, maybe. Maybe I was just an evil little darkness little boy. And, you know, once I fly up to the celestial kingdom, my countenance will fall away. I mean I, it was always thought that it was skin and it, I had never heard the, the apologetics until I listened to the Blacks in the Scriptures dvd. If you, when that came out and they were talking about, oh, it's, you know, go to this chapter in Second Nephi and they talk about scales falling off of their eyes and it's scales of darkness and not the skin. And the countenance changed. And you know, black in Hebrew is referring to countenance. And oh, this scripture in Ecclesiastes talks about a black countenance. And so this is why you should believe this. And I remember listening to it and being, I just kind of accepted a lot of things as they were. I was like, that doesn't make a lot of sense, but I'll accept it from, for right now. And you know, that cognitive dissonance was very, very strong. I will say I never did go out of my way to defend the church's racism. I just kind of accepted it for what it was and tried to move past it, but it just kept coming back up. And so yeah, with, with that it was always skin and the, the pathetic attempts to, to try and reframe it or rebrand it as anything other than that is a disservice to, to Brigham Young and Joseph Smith and what they were trying to do.

John Dehlin [01:12:00] So absolutely, it certainly wasn't animal skins or tattoos or spiritual countenance for the first 150 years of the church when the priesthood and temple band was being implemented.

Nate Bird [01:12:10] Right now I've never mistake the white person dressed in all black as a black person. So I'll just put that out there.

Summer Rain [01:12:15] Yeah. And, and I spoke about this in my stories, but when I first came to Utah, we were in a family ward and a little five year old looked at me and said, mommy, look, a laymanite. And you know, she did not, she wasn't, she didn't care if it was Native American, she didn't care if it was black. It was because I was a darker complexion than they are. And so I think what we are seeing with this apologetic, this new apologetic is what we read in Second Class Saints where it's just this mental gymnastics of how do we reframe, how do we explain instead of just saying we were wrong. I mean really, this book would not even be necessary if the church at some point had said, you know what, leaders have said some things and we were wrong. We acknowledge it. Let's move forward. What we're seeing with this whole skins tattoo, is it countenance? I feel like 20 years from now, there'll be a book that says, do you remember when they were trying to say this? Because it's mental gymnastics, as Darren had mentioned earlier, and it's not necessary.

Nate Bird [01:13:24] You'd have better luck trying to untangle, like, 50,000 yards of Christmas lights than you would Mormon apologetics.

Summer Rain [01:13:31] Yeah,

John Dehlin [01:13:33] well said. Darren, you want to add anything to that whole apologetic? You may not be hearing that. You may be a little removed from that stuff.

Darren Smith [01:13:42] Well, I mean, I mean, it's just interesting to see the different generations represented here and our experiences with. With this and, you know, and my experience is no different than what Nate and Summer have encountered. The circumstances may be different, but the underlying issue is race. The underlying issue is people's perceived perceptions of blackness and how that continually shapes their understanding of reality.

Summer Rain [01:14:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:14:11] All right, well, if it's okay, we'll leave Brigham Young now. Is that okay? Can we leave Brigham Young? He. So he's the one who implemented the ban. And. And it kind of limps. Kind of lumbered on with, you know, subsequent profits. So Joseph Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, Lorenzo Snow. And there wasn't really a reason to even question it or challenge it because there weren't a lot of black folk in Utah. And if they were in Utah, they were probably slaves. No, that's probably exaggerated.

Summer Rain [01:14:44] I will say, say too really quickly about John Taylor, because this is something I didn't know until the episode. He was the one when asked about why there was still a curse after the flood. He said, because Satan needed reputation. So black people are representation of Satan. This was the next prophet of the church number.

John Dehlin [01:15:06] Yeah, after. Yeah, yeah.

Summer Rain [01:15:09] So I just want people to understand this isn't just, let's change the university name. This is a progressive problem that we're seeing with the president.

John Dehlin [01:15:17] It's like each prophet's trying to out white supremacists.

Darren Smith [01:15:19] The previous prophet. That's right. That's right. That's right.

John Dehlin [01:15:22] Brigham said, one drop and kill him with the javelin. So I'm going to say that they're represent Satan. Right.

Summer Rain [01:15:28] They represent Satan needs representation.

Darren Smith [01:15:31] I mean, I mean, if you think about us, man, you think about this is this. These beliefs and teachings. This is how Mormons felt about black people. This is how. And there's been no apology or attempt to. To redress any of it. Right. And so because Mormons are taught to be blind, blindly follow leaders. Oh, yeah, this guy said it. So it must be True. I mean, there's. I mean, there's no investigation part. There's. There's no think, you know, there was all. And Matt mentions this in his book, or we talk about this somewhere. Thinking people are really. A church is always concerned about thinking people, intellectuals essentially, who are uncovering key points about. What we know about black people today has nothing to do with the leadership of the church. It has to do with the work of historians who are untrained historians who've done prolific work or those who have done exceptional work, like Matt Harris and others and Omar Moss and other folks in church who've done such good work along these lines. But that's where the changes have come, is from people like that, Lester Bush and others. And so. And that's why I said earlier in my work with John, is why I know this is not. This particular series is not about black menaces. But it shows to me a degree to which people resist this in betwixt and in between state that black people in the church have been in. You know, this in. So it creates conflict, internal conflict. You mentioned disconsciousness or for black people. And they have to find a way to deal with it in some way. Either it's with black menaces, it could be with humor. With Sisters in Zion, it could be with blind acceptance, like Alan Cherry's work or even Keith Hamilton's work, where he basically. Basically says in Keith. I like to pick on Keith because when he showed me a draft of his book I about died, I said, you cannot say this. You believe this stuff, Keith.

John Dehlin [01:17:45] Yeah, I have no idea who you're talking about. Summer's over, Summer rain's over here. Laughing. I don't know. A lot of our viewers and listeners know who you're talking about, so.

Darren Smith [01:17:54] So Keith Hamilton wrote a book called Last. Look it up real quick, John. It's called Last Hour Laborers or something like that. Back in the. Back in the. You know, what was it, early 90s or somewhere in the 90s. But I had a. I. He sent me an advanced draft.

John Dehlin [01:18:08] Last Laborer Thoughts, Reflections of a Black Mormon.

Darren Smith [01:18:13] Thank you. Thank you very much.

John Dehlin [01:18:14] With Thorold Bailey, former Jazz member Thorough Bailey.

Darren Smith [01:18:18] Oh, so many of them. There's so many of them out there. But. But basically Keith Hamilton says, darren, you know, I just believe that the Lord just didn't, you know, the Lord. You know, people had to wait before they get the priesthood, and black people had to wait. I'm like, man, you are so wrong. And then later on, the church came out and said, was you know, blame it on Brigham Young, that it was there, that it was him. I said, dude, what do you think about your statement you made then about this? You know, it's just so many of. So many folks, black people included, have. That's one of the ways that black people cope is just to capitulate and I guess internalize. Internalize the racist feelings and thinking about themselves. That can produce really, really, you know, horrible effects for their. For themselves as well as their family. This is betwixt and in between period stuff. All right, pack your bags and leave. You feel better? Just pack your bags and leave. These members of the church, the church itself as an institution, has historically viewed black people as less than. Do you think that's changed? Is there any evidence that it's changed?

John Dehlin [01:19:29] Yeah, because they're baptizing up a storm in Africa, Darren. That shows that they love black people.

Darren Smith [01:19:35] Africans love white people. Kenya, Nigeria, those countries. They love white folks over there. Right? They don't have the same kind of experiences with race presidents we have here. I mean, they weren't. I mean, those were African. African people running the country. They don't have the same experience that we have here with slavery and brutality and what have you. So white folk, white folks, Mormons love Africa. They love, love Africa, the Africans. In fact, I've heard members of church tell me, I like Africans. They don't complain as much as African Americans don't complain as much. Is that not a racist, racially loaded term or what?

Summer Rain [01:20:10] Yeah, yeah.

Has the Church's Racial Culture Really Changed?

John Dehlin [01:20:12] All right.

Darren Smith [01:20:12] And y', all, I'll say one last thing. I'll say one last thing. I'm on Harlem Show. One last thing. The experiences of the first black student body president at BYU. My homie, Dr. Foster, man, he blow y' all away with what happened to him. White folks were not happy that he was the student body president and what he went through. So that's why I asked the question, is it changed much? I mean, this. Is this. The earlier formulations of the church. This is the root, right? This is the root of it all. And, you know, has it changed? I would say no, but that's the question I leave to the audience. You know, has it changed much?

Summer Rain [01:21:00] I don't think it can. I mean, not even just talking about the root, but just unless the leadership takes ownership of what they did. Not just, oh, Brigham Young said some things, but this is what our roots are, and we were wrong. I mean, the Pope has done that for Catholicism. If Mormonism and their leaders could say, say, this was not just the members or the culture, Because I, I hear that a lot. Well, it's Mormon culture. We don't know where it came from. That's a problem. Even the essays we've heard, it's Curse of Cain, we heard it, they were less valiant. But these things, just so you know, we admonish, we just don't know where they came from. No, say where they came from. And once you say that these came from the leaders. And this is why people in their 60s, 70s, 80s, whatever, believe this and still believe this. That's when the trauma can start being healed. But I mean, it's like America saying we admonished slavery. We don't know where it came from. We don't know. We don't even know what. No, you acknowledge and you say this is what happened. This is when it started. Not, you know, there's a couple of people that we think started slavery. I mean, you've got to acknowledge it and you've got to say this is where it came from. Members are not going to let go of these ideas. If they remember, like their pioneer stories that, you know, these prophets that they grew up with said these things over the pulpit, it's not going to change.

Darren Smith [01:22:37] Summer, your, your, your just, your, your, your analysis. Summer really speaks volumes to the principle, the principle of atonement. This is what the church talks about. This is what members of the church stand up in sacrament meetings on any given day and talk about the atonement. Right. If you want to teach the atonement, then you teach by example. And this is one example where the church needs to. I've been saying this for years. They need to come out and truly apologize for these awful things that they didn't said that has impacted black folks and I would say white folks as well. And until they do that, this is going to continue.

John Dehlin [01:23:22] So I'll channel my best modern Mormon race apologist I can and just say what they'll say is, number one, the race and the priesthood Gospel topics essay acknowledges now that it was a policy and racism has been repeatedly denounced now over the General Conference pulpit. And we're baptizing like crazy in Africa. Nate, y' all are never happy. What else do you need? Well, I'm totally kidding.

Nate Bird [01:23:58] So first off, it wasn't a policy, it was doctrine. So that's a lie.

Summer Rain [01:24:01] That's what I thought.

Nate Bird [01:24:02] And you know, if you read Second Class Saints by Matt Harris.

Summer Rain [01:24:05] Yeah.

Nate Bird [01:24:06] If you read that, you'll, you'll find

Darren Smith [01:24:07] out that that's a lie.

Nate Bird [01:24:09] Secondly, let me see, what were the

John Dehlin [01:24:11] Other points that we denounce racism now explicitly over the pulpit. We denounce it regularly. Repeatedly.

Nate Bird [01:24:17] Yeah. Denouncing racism is not the same as, like, fighting against it. It's not enough to be not racist. You must be anti racist.

John Dehlin [01:24:25] Which means what?

Darren Smith [01:24:25] That's right.

John Dehlin [01:24:26] What would it mean for the first presidency, the quorum of the 12, to be anti racist?

Nate Bird [01:24:30] Well, it would mean, first off, taking accountability because, you know, hiding a little disavow. Disavowing on, you know, the back. The back channels of lds.org is not enough. You need to publicly, in your most. Your most viewed settings, General Conference. Right. You need to speak directly and openly about the. The race and priesthood band and not in a, you know, a way that paints the church in the best possible light. Needs to be an honest and raw conversation.

John Dehlin [01:25:02] Yeah. Because literally what percentage of the active global Mormon population knows about the race in the priesthood essay, let alone has read it? What would you guess?

Nate Bird [01:25:13] Very, very small.

John Dehlin [01:25:14] Less than 1%.

Nate Bird [01:25:15] Yeah. You did research, right?

John Dehlin [01:25:16] Yeah.

Nate Bird [01:25:16] A lot of people don't know about it. And those that do find out about it usually end up leaving the church over the things that they read.

Darren Smith [01:25:21] Right.

John Dehlin [01:25:21] So that's why they don't read it over the board.

Darren Smith [01:25:23] Yeah.

Summer Rain [01:25:23] Right.

Nate Bird [01:25:23] You know, and so, you know, they would have to be willing to be honest and open more than they're willing to, you know, collect tithing money and. And stay good in the eyes of their members because, yeah, they would take a hit, but if they were honest about it, they might take less of a hit than I think they will.

Summer Rain [01:25:39] So what you're saying is, do what is right. Let the consequence follow.

Nate Bird [01:25:42] Yeah, something like that. I don't know. It's crazy, right?

John Dehlin [01:25:47] Good.

Darren Smith [01:25:48] Darren, I'm sorry these people teach this stuff, but why. Why don't they practice it? That's all I'm saying.

John Dehlin [01:25:53] Yeah. And then. And then I'll just say, y'.

Summer Rain [01:25:56] All.

John Dehlin [01:25:56] I want to hear what y' all think about the church going bananas in Africa. There are two problems with that. Even corporations know that Africa is an important growth center for the future because finance, you know, the. The. The economies of many African countries are growing like gangbusters, like China and Russia, you know, of the past several decades, and Brazil and what they called the BRIC countries. Brazil, Russia, India, China. You know, 20 years ago, everyone knew there was, throw your money into China and in Brazil and Russia and India, and you'll get good returns. That's the way Africa is now for corporations. And then secondly, it's the only way to get growth because all the other markets have been tapped out other than China and India, maybe. And then also, it's like a numbers game. It's like the only way the church can inflate its hemorrhaging membership statistics is to grow like bananas in Africa. So I don't know. I shouldn't answer your question, but that's the third is, hey, we're baptizing lots of Africans. We can't be racist. Any final responses to that?

Darren Smith [01:27:01] Are you asking?

Nate Bird [01:27:02] Yeah,

Summer Rain [01:27:05] asking me.

Nate Bird [01:27:06] Yeah. In response to that, you know, I think one thing, as black Americans, I'll speak for myself. One thing I tend to do is they tend to lump the people of Africa, like, into one group of just like Africans. But I'm learning, you know, as I'm, like, trying to. To educate myself more, I'm learning that, like, there are very different circumstances depending on each country that you go to. Just like each, you know, each. Each state in the United States has different politics. Each country in the European Union has different politics. Same with countries in Africa. And, you know, there may be some hot spots of. Of Mormon growth activity, but I'm willing to bet that, you know, in a few years we might hear about some. Some baseball baptisms or maybe football baptisms, because, you know, football's big over there. We're talking about real football, not American football, soccer. And yeah, you know, I think that there's likely some things like that going on as well as maybe some, you know, some financial things. But I also know that there are a lot of. Of people in Africa and different countries in Africa who are not as favorable towards the church or, you know, as favorable towards white people. And I know that there is a strong movement in a lot of countries there to try and remove colonial influences from Africa. They're trying to return resources back to the people that are there. And I think that probably applies with religions as well, because a lot of colonization took place through religion. Right. And. And so, you know, really what the church is doing is just trying to colonize Africa in the same way that that Christians and other. Mainly Christians. I don't know about too many other religions that do a lot of colonization, but Christians have been trying to colonize the world for so long, you're just seeing the same thing with Mormonism. And so it's really not something that they should be bragging about because they're trying to, you know, gain influence and power through the spreading of religion. And of course, they're teaching a sanitized version of Mormonism. They're not going to teach them about the priesthood ban. They're not going to teach them about a lot. Elijah, Abel, all the details are going to teach them about all the details of Jane Manning. They're just going to teach them about the, you know, the plan of salvation, the atonement of Jesus Christ, things that can appeal to any, you know, anyone who has a knowledge of Christianity or Catholicism. They're going to teach those things that appeal to them in the most sanitized way possible and try and get them to convert to that church.

Summer Rain [01:29:17] Yep, I, I agree. That's exactly, exactly what I think. I, I'm, I'm curious to know because I know Darren said that he was, he became a member around the time my dad did.

John Dehlin [01:29:30] They.

Summer Rain [01:29:30] I feel like it's the same thing. Priesthood ban ended in 78. My dad joined the church in 83 and was not told about the priesthood ban at all. The missionaries did not include that in the lessons. And so I know that's what's happening in Africa, but I'm curious for Darren what his thoughts are on that because it was so close to the ban being lifted. 81.

Darren Smith [01:29:56] Yeah. So. So this is in reference to what's happening in Africa, Summer or.

Summer Rain [01:30:00] Yeah, yeah. And just your thoughts on how they're going to probably tailor the lessons like they did for black Americans here in America when the ban was lifted.

Darren Smith [01:30:13] Yeah.

Summer Rain [01:30:14] And Brazil.

John Dehlin [01:30:15] Yeah.

Darren Smith [01:30:15] Yes. So I think, I think Nate hit it right on the head. I mean, I think the church is going to continue to do what it's doing. I mean, they're not going. So the lessons that were, that were taught to me as a, as a, as a con, as a, you know, someone who was interested in church investigator, they'll tweak that lesson, you know, here and there. But in terms of, you know, it fundamentally changing, not a lot. I mean, and when I joined, when I was, when I was proselytized, they didn't mention the priesthood band. They're not going to mention that. You know, just as they did with me and your father. They're not going to mention that. That's something. And missionaries don't know how to get into that discussion. That's a really intellectual, high level discussion that you have to be well read in to be able to talk about. So they're not going to get, you know, missionaries get just the superficial information enough to present a coherent, coherent message of love and peace and acceptance. That doesn't, that's kind of a racial apolitical and what have you. But you all know the subscripts. That's one thing. Secondly, Africans perceive that very differently than African Americans. When that comes up in discussions, I mean, how it lands and how it hits with Africans are very different than how it land and hit with Africans. African Americans.

Summer Rain [01:31:36] That's a good point. Yeah.

Joseph Fielding Smith and the Way to Perfection

John Dehlin [01:31:39] All right, so this is a brilliant discussion. We are talking about this amazing book, Second Class Saints, Black Mormons and the Struggle for Racial Equality. Let's go ahead and go to the turn of the 20th century. And, you know, we fast forward to Joseph F. Smith being prophet. He was the son of Hyrum Smith, the nephew of Joseph Smith, and he appoints his son, Joseph Feelingsmith, to be an apostle in his 30s. But maybe right before Joseph Feeling Smith becomes an apostle or around that time, there's a lot of questions about the priesthood ban, partly because Elijah Abel's posterity are still around, and people are just trying to figure out. And probably more and more black people are moving into the state of Utah. They're building a railroad. You know, there are more black people showing up in places like Ogden to help with the railroad and, you know, lots of dynamics, missionary work, et cetera. Just start raising the question. And I was blown away to see, and I mentioned this earlier in this episode, that they were confused, that Joseph F. Smith and Joseph Fielding Smith were confused about the origins of the priesthood and temple band. Right. And even. Even as early as the 19 teens, Joseph Fielding Smith himself tries to find a doctrinal, like a revelation or some piece of doctrine or some piece of history that sort of enshrines it the. The priesthood and temple ban as doctrine. And what happens? Summer?

Summer Rain [01:33:23] Can't find it.

John Dehlin [01:33:24] Can't find it.

Summer Rain [01:33:25] Can't find it.

John Dehlin [01:33:26] Yeah. So what else should you do then? Then write a book that basically tells the whole church that it's doctrine. Right. Like, Nate, this is something you wanted us to talk about. So I've got a little video clip queued up. Do you want to set up why? You know what it was about this book? This book is called the Way to Perfection. If you haven't read Second Class Saints or listen to the podcast, it's a doozy. But. But, Nate, you want to set this up before we play the clip?

Nate Bird [01:34:01] Yeah. So I get the feeling that Joseph Fielding Smith was kind of like one of those. Those missionary companions that you have that loves the deep doctrine. Right? Like, oh, the. The Oakland Temple is shaped like the star of Melchizedek, like that type of stuff.

Darren Smith [01:34:13] Right.

Nate Bird [01:34:15] And he loved to, like, toot his own horn and talk about all the scriptures that he knew and the things. And he. He invented a lot of his own theology for why black people were. Were cursed by the, you know, the seed of Cain, why they were responsible for the Son of Adam's transgressions, if you will. And so you read a clip from that book. These were not your own thoughts, if I'm not mistaken. And when I was listening to the podcast, I was just dumbfounded by the things that Joseph Fielding Smith had to say about black people.

John Dehlin [01:34:44] Yeah. And you know, he would have been an apostle by the time he writes this book, so that means he would have been sustained as a special witness of Christ and as a prophet, seer and revelator for the church. And Matt Harris's book notes that the First Presidency asked him to write and publish this book. And part of the reason was to just make it clear to everyone that, you know what the doctrine was. And Matt gives us examples of where the. The Way to Perfection was incorporated into official Sunday school and church curriculum. So what you're about to hear is passages that. That became Mormon doctrine. This book was sold worldwide, 12, 13 different languages, and it was hidden in

Summer Rain [01:35:39] the back of a website. It was very widely known and very widely read.

Nate Bird [01:35:44] And they stopped distributing it in what, the mid-80s?

John Dehlin [01:35:46] Yeah, yeah. Like not too long ago.

Summer Rain [01:35:49] Not too long ago.

John Dehlin [01:35:50] All right, so here's me reading from Joseph Feeling Smith's Way to Perfection.

Guest [01:35:56] It's really ingrained into the church.

John Dehlin [01:35:58] And can I. Can I read one more passage from the book? Yeah, I just really want to drive it home. So again, this is the Way to Perfection. This was printed in 1970, so it's 14th printing. Right. And I just have to read this. This is on page 43.

Nate Bird [01:36:18] And.

John Dehlin [01:36:19] And again, think about this as a book commissioned by the Mormon Church, First Presidency, written by an apostle, the son of the prophet Joseph F. Smith. Right.

Darren Smith [01:36:28] And Houston Sunday School.

John Dehlin [01:36:29] Houston Sunday School, yeah. Used to churchwide. Yeah. Okay. For a long time that the Negro race, for instance, have been placed under restrictions because of their attitude in the world of spirits, few will doubt it cannot be looked upon as just that they should be deprived of the power of the priesthood without it being a punishment for some act or acts performed before they were born. So he's saying, hey, if they don't have the priesthood now, they must have been bad in the pre earth life. Reason. That's the only conclusion we could arrive at with reason. Not that the ban is wrong, but that they must have done something bad in a pre earth Life, he goes on to say, yet like all other spirits who come into this world, they come innocent before God, way too happy so far as mortal existence is concerned. And here, under certain restrictions, they may work out their second estate goes on. If they prove faithful in this estate, without doubt, our eternal Father, who is just and true, will reward them accordingly. And there will be in store for them some blessings of exaltation. Can somebody tell me what some blessings of exaltation means exactly? It's not like full. Full exaltation. All the blessings that. It's like, if they're really good in this life, they may get some of it. I'm sorry, I'm acting a little bit sarcastic, but like it, you know, later, the church is going to issue, you know, a very controversial gospel topics essay, which is something you've covered on Mormon stories. Stories where they're going to basically just say all the, you know, opinions of the past were folklore and they were just the opinions of the. The leaders. No, this is books commissioned by first presidency members, written by apostles and sons of prophets, established as curriculum and used for half a century in the church. That's not just little rumors and opinions of some men. All right, so what's.

Nate Bird [01:38:45] That was.

John Dehlin [01:38:46] What's wrong with that?

Nate Bird [01:38:47] Well, you know, it's just so comforting to know that if I'm really good in this life, I get to be a slave to Brigham Young in the next.

Guest [01:38:53] That's just.

Summer Rain [01:38:53] You get some blessings, Nate.

Nate Bird [01:38:55] Some blessings of the blessings probably includes being a servant, I don't know, ministering angel. I don't know what that looks like, but, yeah, to say, oh, like, you know, it's. Few will doubt that this is, you know, this is the case that black people had to have done something bad before, and that's why their skin looks like this, and that's why they're in this plight. It's just. It's a very white supremacist mindset, which, you know, is a product of the time, however, to be speaking for God, because there's no doubt. There can be no doubt. Like, he was asked by the first presidency to write this book. And Dr. Harris talks about how, you know, when the brethren had questions or when they, you know, needed a. When they needed a scripture for something or when they needed some kind of, you know, doctrinal backup, they would always go to Joseph Fielding Smith and say, hey, what's the scripture for this? Or what's that passage in the Bible that talks about this? Or in the Doctrine and Covenants talks about this and so they went to him specifically because they trusted him and they respected him as someone who understood the. The teachings of the Church, and they knew that he could weave a story in a way that would be well accepted for generations to come. And so that's what he did.

John Dehlin [01:40:01] Anything you want to add?

Summer Rain [01:40:02] No, I. A thousand percent. I mean, that's the thing, is Joseph Fielding Smith wasn't just some guy. He was supposed to be the most authority within the church, you know, within the leadership. And so it's. It's. It's problematic. It's problematic when you say we can't find doctrine, so let's just make sure we solidify it as doctrine instead of just saying, you know what we can't find, that it's a revelation, so maybe it wasn't.

John Dehlin [01:40:34] Yeah. And we know that he knew, because he's on the book tells us he knew that they couldn't find a source for the revelation and that he wasn't sure it was doctrinal in the 1910s. The other thing that the book mentions or Matt mentions is he knew about Elijah Abel before he published this book. And he leaves. He intentionally leaves that out. So he knew Joseph Smith ordained black men to the priesthood, and then he intentionally leaves that out of the book.

Summer Rain [01:41:02] Isn't he the one that. That said that it was. It was a mistake. It later on. Wasn't it Joseph Fielding Smith that said it, that, you know, Joseph Smith didn't mean to give Elijah Abel priesthood?

John Dehlin [01:41:16] Also, Matt says that he had the theory that there were two Elijah Abels.

Summer Rain [01:41:20] Oh, yeah, that was another one.

John Dehlin [01:41:21] There was a black Elijah Abel and a white Elijah Abel. Did you hear that, Darren?

Darren Smith [01:41:26] Yeah, that was. That was really.

John Dehlin [01:41:28] What's that, Darren?

Darren Smith [01:41:29] Yeah, I had. Yeah, I had to sit down and ponder on that before.

Summer Rain [01:41:37] Had to ponderize that one. Wasn't Joseph Phillip Smith also the one that took the. The Joseph Smith's first vision?

John Dehlin [01:41:47] And. And, yes, he comes upon an inconvenient version of Joseph Smith's first vision that. The 1832 version that's totally different from the official, you know, 1838 version.

Summer Rain [01:41:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:41:58] So he rips it out of the journal and hides it for several decades.

Summer Rain [01:42:01] I mean, if. If you were to look up lying for the Lord in the dictionary, Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith Smith is there with jazz hands. I mean, lying for the Lord. Lying for the Lord. I mean, come. I mean, it's so problematic, but.

John Dehlin [01:42:18] Oh, man. And he's like. He becomes prophet. Like, he literally becomes prophet of the Mormon Church.

Darren Smith [01:42:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:42:23] Eventually.

Darren Smith [01:42:24] All right. It's funny when you look at Dar, if, you know, you contrast him with Brigham Young, right? Brigham Young's pronouncement. No, man said it before. I'll say it now, dog on it. You can't hold the priesthood. Then you look back, you know, fast forward to Joseph Felding Smith's ridiculousness. You know, another kind of a pronouncement made in. In way to perfection. You know, is incredible what church leaders did to justify this stuff, man. The backflips they did and the.

Summer Rain [01:42:58] The.

Darren Smith [01:42:58] I don't know if they. I mean, they certainly didn't know. I mean, the consequences of their. Their actions. But, man, when I look at. When I listen to you two talk about this. John, I'm sorry. I'm kind of, you know, I'm kind of disassociating right now. I don't have a lot to contribute because so much of what's been said by Summer and Nate are so poignant and so spot on. And so it's just surreal to listen to. Listen to Summer and Nate. For me to have these conversations. I've had these conversations. I can't tell you how many times over and over and over, whether it be with members, whether it be in a conference, delivering a paper, or even in even the books that I've written to try to make sense of all of this stupidity that's been going on for generations within the church. I think, again, Matt puts a lot of meat on the bone, on the bones to digest a lot of the underpinnings of the stupidness that the church went through, like Joseph Fellow Smith, some of these other characters. But it just underscores the fact that, you know, the church, unfortunately, was a, you know, just another, you know, racist institution, you know, so trying to reconcile its existence when it comes to black people.

Summer Rain [01:44:10] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:14] All right. Well, that's. That's the way to perfection. Another shocking part. I think this is episode three. Is that right, Nate, that this last one. This is episode two or three. I don't even know which one.

Blackface and Racist Imagery in Mormon Publications

Nate Bird [01:44:26] The black face.

John Dehlin [01:44:27] The clip we just played.

Nate Bird [01:44:28] Yeah, that was part.

John Dehlin [01:44:30] That was. That was part two. Okay, so in part two, we also have the clip about blackface in Mormon magazines and Mormon road shows. Anybody want to talk about that before I play the clip?

Summer Rain [01:44:41] I'll give Nate the honors.

Nate Bird [01:44:42] You just play the clip. Yeah, this one. Self explanatory.

John Dehlin [01:44:45] Okay. All right, so. All right, we're gonna play another clip now talking about blackface in, I don't know, Mormon curriculum and Mormon roadshows.

Guest [01:45:01] That Mormons would put on what's called blackface that white people would put chalk or charcoal on their faces to pretend that they were black. And they would oftentimes use blackface and put on what are called minstrel shows, where they would put on dancing shows and white people pretending they're black dancing around, essentially making a fool of themselves. The audience, most of whom are white, would be laughing, and they would pay money to go to these shows to watch black Mormons or white Mormons in blackface dancing around. So it was a form of entertainment that Americans at large had done ever since the 19th century, and Mormons are following this practice. And in this image, John, that you'll show here, it's. It's a picture of blackface from. I think this was from the Latter Day Saint messenger in Portsmouth, England. And you can see that there are three Latter Day Saints here in black.

John Dehlin [01:46:00] I'll read the caption. So this is for those who are just listening. It looks like a road show, but it's basically three people dressed in what looks like temple clothing, but I'm guessing it's not. But they're doing some sort of art performance in blackface with just white around their eyes and their mouth. But the rest, it's totally black. They're wearing some sort of baker's cap with aprons, which is weird. But the. But the caption says three N word minstrels from the Portsmouth MIA Roadshow, which was supported by members from the Lee park and Gosport Ferrum branches. And again, what publication is this published in?

Guest [01:46:44] I think this is the Latter Day Saint messenger and Advocate, if I recall. It's. It's a. It's an international church magazine.

John Dehlin [01:46:52] And around what year do you think

Guest [01:46:54] this one right here was? 1963.

John Dehlin [01:46:57] Whoa.

Guest [01:46:58] Yeah. And so this was. This had been going on. I. This had been going on, pictures like this ever since the 1920s. And when I. I shared one of my dear friends who passed away a couple of year and a half ago or so. His name is Armand Moss. And for your Mormon listeners who may follow Mormon racial history, they. They'll know his name. Anyway, he was a sociology professor at Washington State University, professor of sociology and religion, and he retired to California. Anyway, so he wrote some great work on race and. And Mormons and also other topics over the years. Well, I had Armin before he passed. He read about six of the 10 chapters of this book. And when he read this stuff here, he wrote me an email and he said, you know, Matt, I'm afraid to admit this. But I remember in our California ward. So Armin would have been working on his doctorate degree at Berkeley at the time, in the late 60s when he lived in Northern California. And he said, I remember in my California ward that we would do fundraisers with blackface. I am ashamed to admit this. This is 1969, but we did it.

John Dehlin [01:48:10] All, right? So I think. I think folks get a sense for that. Nate, you start.

Nate Bird [01:48:15] I can't imagine any fundraiser that is more successful if you wear blackface. But that's. That's interesting to me. But, you know, even more so than that, the fact that. That those three individuals were printed in a church magazine. I think, again, that just kind of goes to show, you know, maybe it was a little less sterilized than it is today. I know they just recently got rid of the enzyme. Is that right? Or they rebranded, renamed it, you know, so maybe it wasn't quite as. As manicured then as it is now. But still, the fact that you would have that in a church magazine that sends out the message to whoever reads it that that is okay and that that's a part of church culture, right? And that that's acceptable. And, you know, that was 1963, so those people are still alive. Like, there were primary kids there who are, you know, probably bishops and stake presidents now. And maybe they've, you know, maybe some of them have gotten rid of those ideas, but a lot of them probably haven't, you know, because those things that you learn as a child, they tend to stick with you. So if you're learning that stuff like that is acceptable as a kid, that shapes the way that you view the world. And, you know, so it's that that influence is still very much alive today, you know, within the LDS Church.

John Dehlin [01:49:24] So, Marie?

Summer Rain [01:49:25] Yeah, I just. I just keep thinking product of the time, right? And American culture. I mean, we know what blackface is not because Mormons did blackface in a. In a magazine. It's because it was a. A thing that they did since, like Matt Harris said, the 19th century. The problem is this is supposed to be God's church, led by God, his one and only true church. So, you know, that's. That's where it becomes problematic again if we can say, well, you know what, this was a mistake. This was just the times. This is what everyone else was doing. That's one thing. But when you say that these are prophecy or revelators, they should know better, because God should be telling them. And there are people during that time that are saying, this is wrong. You Know, it's not. Everybody is saying blackface is funny. There are people during that time, contemporaries that are saying this is wrong, this is harmful. These are tropes. There are groups of people that are saying this is wrong. Why are we as members of the church not part of those groups? Why is the church leaders constantly behind when it comes to these issues? So that's all I have to say. I just think it's very sad and

John Dehlin [01:50:52] you know, it's awful that it ever happened in a Mormon ward or publication context, but the, you know, the Civil Rights act of 1964, you know, was. So that predated some of these roadshows by six years. Like Martin Luther King emerges in the mid-50s. So the fact that these were existing 15 years after the emergence of Martin Luther King is just another level of just unbelievability.

Summer Rain [01:51:22] Well, if you've got church leaders that are saying, in essence, separate but equal. Yeah, I mean, that's what they're saying. When you're saying no interracial anything, dating, marriage, anything like that, stay separate. We know there, there is no such thing. If you're equal, you won't be separated. So, I mean, it's easy to say civil rights 64. So why are they still. It's because they still believe that black members are inferior, which is why they want us to remain separate.

John Dehlin [01:51:54] And we'll cover it in future episodes. Matt covers very well how Mormon church prophets and revelators fought Martin Luther King in the civil rights movement. Let's bring Darren in to comment on the blackface part of the book as well.

Darren Smith [01:52:08] You know, I just want to just go back to what some of Harking and what. To what Nate said. I mean, just this just really underscores the deep seated racist educational experiences that Mormons, white people in general have had. Mormons in particular have had to struggle with since the inception of Mormonism, particularly with the leadership that, you know, really shows their. Just the degree to which they're willing to capitulate to prevailing public domain racial tropes that are in existence. And so just. But what I know we're talking about Matt's book and all that, but my issue is that this whole affair and the influence it has on African Americans and other black people who are members who are coming in, some of the first to come into the church and how they had to reconcile these horrible notions about themselves. That must have been really a tough head trip for all of us. Summer, Nate, me. It's a head trip to being in a space that's had such a long history of racism and white supremacy. Right. The idea that white people are in. Are. And I'm not talking about just for Mormons. I'm talking about broader white supremacy and Mormonism's particular version of it. I mean, it's just hard to. And their persistence, their persistence with it, you know, not letting. Holding on to it. And you see it. You see it in. In white paternalism. You see it in, you know, white paternalism. You see it in. You know, I've had people tell me, I mentioned earlier, before we. We started this, that resurrection story that was told to me by a church member, and at the end of that, in the end of his. This, you know, unbelievable story of resurrection, some. Something he found or. And he goes, yeah, and Darren, you know, you'll be white. You know, when in the resurrection, I'm like. It was like, you know, the. The record. The record, you know, goes off. I'm like, what? He said, you go, you'll be white in the resurrection. I had to sit with that for a minute. Is this man crazy or is this is what the church actually believes? I mean, it's just a hard thing to have to swallow as a young dude. And they didn't tell me, like you mentioned, that missionaries didn't tell me anything about this. I remember they told me one night I went tracting with them, proselytizing with them, and they told me, they stopped the car and said, darren, we want to talk to you about something. Elder so. And so. And I, you know, just feel that we need to tell you this. I said, what? Tell me what they told me at the Precip band and all that. Black people. Yeah, I was 15. I didn't really understand the implications. Implications of all that at the time. I just. And like, Nate, I just accepted it on faith and just moved on with it until it started to surface. So, Nate, you said something earlier. You accepted much of this on faith and just put your head down and drove forward. But people continue to remind you of it. And so it continued to surface at every turn. And. And at some point you have to. You have to address it. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:55:28] Yeah, I just want. I. I thought of this earlier. There's a. There's several movies that have been instrumental in helping me gain better perspective. One is the movie Guess who's Coming to Dinner with Sidney Poitier. And I think it's Catherine. Katherine Hepburn. Right. And. But it talks about interracial marriage, and it's a. It's a phenomenal, phenomenal movie. To help educate us about that topic a little better. And then I don't know if y' all have ever seen the movie Bamboozled by Spike Lee. It's an amazing movie that helps portray the way that the black people have been portrayed in the media, in Hollywood specifically, and on TV over the past 100 years. Have you seen Bamboozled, Darren?

Darren Smith [01:56:18] I have. I have. And you're right. You're right. It does a nice job of exploring these topics and blackface and so on. And you guys remember, you might be you, Nate. You may have been involved in this. There was some brother that was walking around in blackface who was a member of the church or something like that back in. A couple years back. You remember that, Sean? Who was that cat that was doing blackface?

Nate Bird [01:56:40] You know, I don't. It happened more than once when I was at byu. Some kids showed up to a Halloween party in blackface.

John Dehlin [01:56:46] So I think some kids in St. George showed up, like, Halloween party in

Nate Bird [01:56:50] blackface Or Cedar City.

John Dehlin [01:56:52] Cedar City, Yeah.

Nate Bird [01:56:53] That was a couple years ago, so a few different.

Darren Smith [01:56:56] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:56:57] Anyway, check out Bamboozle.

Darren Smith [01:56:59] Didn't you do some study, John? John, you worked on something back in the day, in the work that you were doing, collecting data on something. I can't remember. You came across some really interesting things about race that you shared with me, and I cannot remember what it was, but it was pretty profound, man.

John Dehlin [01:57:14] I'm roasty on that, so I'm gonna have to go back and. Yeah, yeah, I apologize for that.

Summer Rain [01:57:19] Anyway, yeah, there's also another movie called Imitation of Life.

Nate Bird [01:57:24] Yeah.

Summer Rain [01:57:25] It's from a long time ago. And it talks. It gets into racial race passing, which is when you are light enough or have certain features that you can pass as white. And it really dives into. The girl looks white, but her mother's black. And just the struggles that happen with that. It's called Imitation of Life. It's. It's a deep movie.

Darren Smith [01:57:51] That's a painful one to watch, too.

Summer Rain [01:57:53] Painful?

Darren Smith [01:57:53] Yeah, very painful.

John Dehlin [01:57:55] Love, Julia. All those to the. To the show notes. Thank you for sharing. Okay, so. Yeah, don't do. If you ever have the impulse to do blackface for Halloween, don't do it. Please don't do it.

Darren Smith [01:58:08] Yes. That's not a good thing to do. So stop it.

John Dehlin [01:58:12] Yeah, don't do it. Okay, so, Nate, the next thing that you mentioned was from episode three, which is around one big hero that emerges. Go ahead, Nate.

Nate Bird [01:58:24] I was gonna say, if you want, we could skip that one and move to the other One. But it's.

Summer Rain [01:58:28] Yeah, yeah, let's do the Bruce Armaki because he really wants to talk about that one.

John Dehlin [01:58:32] Okay, okay.

Summer Rain [01:58:33] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:58:33] Well, the. You know, I do want to make sure people check out that Larry Nelson episode because he was a real legend. Just really quickly, one sentence.

Darren Smith [01:58:42] I love talking about Larry Nelson.

Nate Bird [01:58:44] Yeah, just maybe next time we can cover it.

Darren Smith [01:58:47] Next time maybe.

John Dehlin [01:58:48] Yeah, we can do that. Yeah.

Nate Bird [01:58:49] I'll just say that was my first time learning about Larry Nelson, but I. I was fascinated by him and by the work that he was doing. Calling out the brethren at that time was, you know, it was respect to him for being able to do that and have that correspondence. But also that correspondence kind of shows the state of the. The church and where the brethren were at with race. And it was just basically just like a bullheadedness, refusing to.

Summer Rain [01:59:11] Yeah.

Nate Bird [01:59:11] To give it, you know, and refusing to just take stock of. Of what was going on around them. Read the room and see that times were changing. It's still that same way now, except with the LGBTQ community.

John Dehlin [01:59:24] So just the idea of, like the church wanting to send missionaries to Cuba, but they only want to find the white people in Cuba, but it's not just the white people. They need to find the white people with no drops of African blood. And so they find an expert in Cuba that happens to be, you know, a friend of the church. And they're like, how do we find the pure white blooded people in Cuba? And he's like, I have an idea. How about don't go to Cuba, because that's super offensive and racist. Plus, no, no drop of African blood is not a thing. And like, he's. And it's unchristlike. And he goes and he tells the First Presidency, stop this in the 40s. Like, it's. So it's not like they didn't. Weren't put on notice. Larry Nelson puts the First Presidency on notice, and their response is to warn him to back down. And then they double down and issue their first. First First Presidency letter affirmation that the priesthood bands doctrinal in 49. And they don't issue it publicly. They just keep it private and they just share it with like, like what a. What a legend. And then Lowry Nelson turns around and

Summer Rain [02:00:36] goes to the media and publishes. Goes to the media. He's like, you know what? These private letters aren't working. So I mean, it's interesting that I know the NAACP had gotten involved at that point. And when I say got involved, they did their editorials and they spoke about how racist this was and why people should, you know, how black members were being treated. And I don't remember what editorial, but they, they talked about it. And then Larry Nelson said, I'm going to go ahead and blow this open to. With the media. I mean he's, he was one of the first activists, one of the first allies for black members of the church.

Closing Reflections from Black Mormon Voices

John Dehlin [02:01:18] Yeah. Darren, we got to give you at least a minute on Larry Nelson.

Darren Smith [02:01:22] Well, you know, I came across Larry Nelson's work a couple several years back and I was blown away by it. I just didn't know that there was such a, such a figure that existed in the church. But he was really inspirational. In fact, you know, you say something, John, in one of the episodes that I was listening to. I can't remember if it was one or two where you talk about that. That could have been the processes that occurred with Larry Nelson, with Heber Meeks and the first presidency could have really been a turning point for the church in its beliefs. Had decisions been. Had they had something during these exchanges actually took. Took Larry Nielsen's advice about the changing times. But they dug their heels in, man. That's what it's been like every single. They dug their heels in on these beliefs and, and, but I think that we need more Lowry Nelson's in the church, more white people to stand up for justice and to break free from the, from the shackles of ideological slavery. And so we just don't get that very, very much in, in the Mormon faith. I think there's a reason for that. I think some of the reasons have to do with the political leanings of the church. The fact that the church is right facing pretty much gop. Most of the people in eastern Utah at least are very strong supporters of the Republican Party. No offense to your father, Summer, but I'm not sure what kind of Republican is. He's an old school moderate Republican or he's the extremist Donald Trump type that's really kind of taken over the Republican Party as we know it. Hey, the Republicans are the party.

John Dehlin [02:03:08] Lincoln, right? The Republican Party.

Darren Smith [02:03:10] All of the things they say, man, family values. Not true. It's just not true. It's opposite of. It's like, it's like the. What's that book, George Orwell book, 1984. It's like the opposite of everything that they say. Love is hate, right? I mean, you know, evil is good. I mean, it's the opposite. People with their alternative realities. And if people don't read and educate themselves. Right. Which is Looked upon with disdain, you know, by extremist members of the right. People will never learn. They'll stay trapped in their ignorance. And so this is partly the problem with these very strong orthodox religions and sort of the mind game that they have, the mind control they have on their members about that man.

John Dehlin [02:03:58] That's why I think it's so beautiful.

Darren Smith [02:04:00] I think for myself. Well, if you thought for yourself, then you'd have. You'd have a different attitude toward black people. But what would give white people the incentive to do that when the prevailing winds say that, you know, you can go anywhere you want to as a white person, you don't have to worry about the same things that people of color have to worry about. Would you be inclined to sort of change that system if you thought that it would be. It would take advantages away from you, which it won't. But if you. Would you be inclined to change a system like that of white supremacy? There's been no. There's been no. No with the church and in the larger society, no real effort to redress the historical wrongs done to black people. Until you. Until the church does that, they are guilty of the very things that they. They profess that their members should do. They're really complicit in their own demise when it comes to, you know, proselytizing and truth claims. So African. So if you can't get African Americans, which have been very, very. African Americans, have been very dubious of Mormonism, so they go to other places like South America or Africa, where they.

John Dehlin [02:05:14] And.

Darren Smith [02:05:14] And that's. And that's not unique to the church. Protestant faiths are there, too. Church, Church. Worldwide growth in Europe is not happening, and that's with any church, Catholic Church as well. So they're turning to other. Other markets to keep. To stay relevant. Like John, you said this earlier in one of the. You said middle of the segment we're talking about. That is so important to understand. And so, yeah, when you all were talking about John as a. You know, I'm sorry, y'.

John Dehlin [02:05:44] All.

Darren Smith [02:05:44] I don't want to seem like I'm a stage on the stage, but I've heard all of this before. All. Everything that Matt has talking about and written, I'm very familiar with it. What Matt has done has really unpacked it and really put meat on the bones. And for that I'm grateful for. But, yeah, just looking at it, hearing this shit now, I'm like, did I actually believe this? I did. I did.

Nate Bird [02:06:13] Yeah.

Darren Smith [02:06:13] And I had to unlearn.

Summer Rain [02:06:14] We all Did. Yep.

Darren Smith [02:06:15] And I had to unlearn. Yeah.

Summer Rain [02:06:20] And as Nate said earlier it, he and Matt Harris did a great job of, of giving us the language, giving us the. The verbiage to be able to speak to what we've all been trying to unpack within ourselves.

Darren Smith [02:06:33] That's right.

John Dehlin [02:06:34] I just love the idea Summer rain of, of the revenge of a. Of a black man being a congressman in Utah who's Mormon.

Summer Rain [02:06:42] Yeah. Like no man of African descent will ever rule over Brigham Young or his brethren. Really didn't see that one coming. Did you bring them back?

Darren Smith [02:06:55] Slips in his grave right now.

Summer Rain [02:06:57] Oh, yeah. So I think we're going to do Bruce Armor.

John Dehlin [02:07:01] Okay. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So do you want to set this up? Nate is kind of. We'll have this be the final thing we talk about today, and then we'll resume this panel if y' all want to. For. For some future episodes. But Nate, do you want to talk about what you liked about this next clip?

Nate Bird [02:07:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:18] Or. Or the historical kind of setup for it?

Nate Bird [02:07:20] Yeah. So this clip was about Rusar McConkey and the talk that he gave. I believe it was immediately after. So they, they read deck Official Declaration 2 at General Conference in.

John Dehlin [02:07:30] Or.

Nate Bird [02:07:30] No, it was like a special announcement in June of 1970 which lifted the

John Dehlin [02:07:33] priesthood and temple ban.

Nate Bird [02:07:36] And then immediately after that. Or was it at the following general conference? I don't know. Anyway, he. Bruce Armor Conkey gave this talk where he said, forget everything that we've said. I would always.

John Dehlin [02:07:46] And I don't think he said that in general conference. I think he said it to church educators in a private meeting.

Nate Bird [02:07:51] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:07:52] That's what I understand. But I could be wrong.

Nate Bird [02:07:54] I. I feel like I. I could be wrong, but I thought I had heard a recording of it or something like that. I don't know. But I know that somewhere I've heard that, you know, he. He said basically, forget all that we have said before on this issue. And I was always taught that that was kind of like his way of saying, like, oh, you know, what we said before didn't matter. You know, kind of like a not even half hearted, a quarter hearted, an eighth hearted apology. And so this clip, this next clip kind of like changed the way I thought about that in a major way.

John Dehlin [02:08:28] And this is an address. I'm reading an address to Book of Mormon symposium for seminary and institute teachers at Brigham Young University, August 18, 1978. So I just don't want to give them too much credit, even this, that it's at least it's Some mea culpa in some shape. It was not in General Conference.

Nate Bird [02:08:49] So they never, they never addressed the major things in General Conference.

John Dehlin [02:08:52] No, I, I think they try to avoid that. But like you, I was always told that this statement was basically Brigham Young admitting at least privately, or sorry, Bruce Armaconkey admitting at least privately that, that the brethren made a mistake about the priesthood ban. But Matt Harris educates us context about some, some important context. So let me add that and then we'll play it. This is from episode three, right.

Guest [02:09:20] When non cursed lineages get the priesthood, then black people will have their time. And when I'm going to jump ahead just for a quick second, but when Bruce R. McConkey, the famous apostle in the late 20th century, when the priesthood ban was lifted, he gave this famous talk, and I'll talk great length on this because it's such a seminal talk, but he said that forget that I was wrong. And a lot of people in the church thought that he meant the race doctrine, the justifications for the doctrine. And that's not what he meant because he still taught that the black people were cursed. And less than to the day he died in 1985. What he meant was that, that black people will never get the priesthood in mortality. Why I'm alive because non cursed lineages will not have had that opportunity first. And so when he said forget what I said.

Darren Smith [02:10:15] Oh.

Guest [02:10:16] Referring to the timing of it.

John Dehlin [02:10:17] Wow, I didn't know that. That's good. So that, so that was, Was that news to you?

Nate Bird [02:10:25] Yeah, absolutely. I was always taught that was always held it as, you know, an apology or, you know, it was a weak excuse for an apology, but still that was people's excuse for saying, oh no, you know, the church apologized for everything they said before it's been disavowed. Which. What does that even mean, disavowed? You know, and so to hear that and to hear that he was saying basically the exact opposite, you know, that everything was still in place, kind of like that nudge, nudge, wink, wink, you know, black people are still cursed. You know, we just had to change our public policy on it. That was very eye opening to me. And you know, it doesn't necessarily surprise me, but it was still just kind of shocking to hear how sanitized and how manicured everything has become or everything is within the church. They do. They put a lot of work and a lot of money into maintaining lies.

Darren Smith [02:11:14] That's right.

Summer Rain [02:11:15] Yeah. Yeah. I mean that's, that says it all. It. They, they spend a lot of money and a lot of time to perpetuate things that just are not true. And then the question just. The question is, why don't you just acknowledge. I mean, they just said they disavow. And I just have such an issue with. With disavowing something that you're not taking accountability for. It's like you, John saying something and me saying, I disavow what John says. I don't know where it came from. I don't know why John thinks the way he thinks, but I'm going to say we disavow it. It's disingenuous. And I truly wish that leaders understood the amount of healing that would come just by acknowledging and saying we were wrong. This happened. It wasn't an opinion, it was doctrine. We were wrong. It was not God. God is, you know, not racist, and we do not believe these things anymore.

Darren Smith [02:12:21] Instead, they dug their heels in and said, no, this is. This is the way we are. You know, so. And I think that these statements, remember, they. They weren't speaking to black people. They were speaking to white. White saints, right? So.

John Dehlin [02:12:35] And only the church educators in private, right? Yeah, yeah, Right, Darren?

Darren Smith [02:12:41] Yeah, yeah. What's interesting to y' all is that, you know, the church, Mormon. Mormonism was considered an out, a distinct racial group, right? They were considered outsiders, cast, you know, castaways. And, you know, they were racialized. Mormons were Mormons. Mormons were racialized. Y' all remember that? Y' all don't know read Paul Reed's book about it, but. And yet there was no. They can't translate that experience into other people's experience in a meaningful way. I think they're blinded by their own. The mythology of Mormonism is blinded by that and the sort of blind obedience

Guest [02:13:24] to,

Darren Smith [02:13:26] you know, key stakeholders. Church leadership is really, really difficult for Mormons member white members to sort of unhook from. I mean, for them to unhook from, Unhook from. Mormonism is a whole. And John knows this quite well. It's a. It's a big issue when you. When you have generations who are involved in all this shit, but doesn't do anything for us as black people. So what we do is we just leave and do our own thing. I noticed Nathan has a cross around his neck.

Nate Bird [02:14:00] Oh, no, this is an ankh or whatever that is.

Darren Smith [02:14:02] What's that again, brother? Show me what that is.

Nate Bird [02:14:03] It's an ankh. It predates.

Darren Smith [02:14:06] I thought that was a cross, but I can't see. So. So everybody expresses their. Their Their spirituality. Oh, my God, y'. All. I mean, just. I mean, I'm just thinking about black people. How the hell do we find ourselves in this?

Summer Rain [02:14:28] Well, I. I was only three, so I don't know what y'.

Darren Smith [02:14:30] All.

Summer Rain [02:14:31] Your excuse was.

Darren Smith [02:14:33] I'm pleading ignorance of this because I, I, you know, I mean, I know

Summer Rain [02:14:36] I don't know what your excuse was, but Nate and I, we were. We were little babes.

Nate Bird [02:14:41] Listen, I knew it was true in Sunbeam, so you can't tell me my excuse was.

Darren Smith [02:14:46] I needed friends. Okay. I need a friend.

Summer Rain [02:14:49] There you go.

Darren Smith [02:14:50] Real nice to me.

John Dehlin [02:14:53] Darren, were you raised Mormon in Nashville, is that right?

Darren Smith [02:14:56] I was. I was a convert, but.

John Dehlin [02:14:58] But in Nashville. Okay. So I do, you know I just interviewed Jennifer Ellsworth on Mormon stories.

Darren Smith [02:15:07] Yeah, that's my. I've known Jennifer Ellsworth for. Dude, I can't tell you for years. It's been 35 years. When she told me she left the church, I was. Again, the Ellsworths were really, really prominent family, Mormon family in Nashville. They lived in Brentwood, Franklin area. That's where all the rich white folks lived back then. So if you lived in Franklin, Tennessee, or Brentwood, Tennessee, you're known to be considered to be bougie. So she came from a very influential family. His. Her dad was very strong at the church. I think he was in leadership. Church leadership. State presidency, I believe her father.

John Dehlin [02:15:39] So he was presidency with D. Todd Christofferson.

Darren Smith [02:15:43] Yes, well, that was. D. Todd was my state president.

John Dehlin [02:15:48] Yeah.

Darren Smith [02:15:48] So he. He. He and I have.

Summer Rain [02:15:50] He.

Darren Smith [02:15:50] D. Todd and I go way back. I can tell you all some things that D. Todd has done personally for me. And so, yeah, we go all that whole clan. So. So, yeah, I know she did a podcast with you.

John Dehlin [02:16:02] Yeah, yeah, no, she's my most recent long form interview. Her and her and her husband Darren.

Guest [02:16:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:16:07] Did a Moment Stories episode and they. And they mentioned you in it. I'd mention that.

Darren Smith [02:16:12] I need to see that. I need to see, see that. Yes.

John Dehlin [02:16:14] Check it out. All right, well, this has been an amazing, brilliant panel. I'm so thrilled that y' all have honored me by listening to the podcast, have honored our audience by being willing to come on. But also, I'm so happy that you have enjoyed Matt's book and that you're finding value in it. I want to give you each a chance to kind of give any final words for today's panel. And if you'd like, I'd love to bring you back. So, Darren, let's have you go first, any final words for today's episode?

Darren Smith [02:16:48] No, I just think it was wonderful to be able to be in. To be able to break bread with Nate and Summer and to feel their spirit and to see their, you know, kind of their impressions about this. You know, I've said it before. Matt Harris is a very fastidious researcher, historian. This is excellent work. I mean, it's been. It's been 15 years in the making. So Matt has covered every. So everything that Armand missed, everything that anybody else missed in their work, Matt has been able to step up and really put a lot of meat on the bones and give us a lot of great details about the underpinnings and under workings of this. Of the First Presidency. So I have nothing but love for my brother, and I'm glad he finally published this work. So I encourage the audience to listen, who's listening to me, to us, to read this book, and hopefully you'll be transformed by it in the process.

John Dehlin [02:17:45] All right, Darren, thanks for joining us. Hope you'll join us again soon.

Darren Smith [02:17:48] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:17:49] Nate, final words.

Nate Bird [02:17:52] Just happy to be on the podcast. It was good to hear the thoughts and feelings of other black Mormons. Ex Mormons. Right. That's always great. And it's just important to have community. I think that's one of the biggest things that the church lacks when it comes to saints of color or just people who don't necessarily fit that mold is there's a lack. There can be a lack of community or a lack of belonging. That's definitely something that I struggle with, like, all growing up. And so I think, you know, even there would be so much more love and goodness. And not to say that there isn't, but there would just be so much more. More in the church if they would just be honest about their past. If they could address that, then they would be able to open up to a whole new demographic of people. Right? Because there are people out there, black people. Like, you know, Darren mentioned. I mean, he was looking for a community when he joined the church. There are still people out there like that, and they'd be able to find that community within the church, but it's, you know, it's finding that community. And then, you know, once you get in and you learn all those dark things in the past and that history that isn't addressed and those under those underpinnings that are still prevalent among members of the church. Church, that's what drives people right back out again. And so I think, you know, or I hope, my hope for the church in the future is that they will. They will open their eyes and, you know, learn to see other people and not expect people to fit into a particular mold. And, you know, John, we appreciate you letting us come on this podcast and be uppity.

John Dehlin [02:19:17] My pleasure. Thanks, Dave. All right, Submarine, you get the last word.

Summer Rain [02:19:22] Just to piggyback. I'm so grateful and honored to have done this with. With Darren and Nate. It's been an amazing experience with you guys, and I'm so grateful for that. I want to say thank you to John and Matt. For me, you know, I. Growing up, my father would always talk about I am a representation of the Owens name, and I take that seriously. And so when I walk around and say that I'm a member of the church before, when I was still believing, I took that seriously. And I am grateful for people like Matt who want to make sure that we are informed as black members of the church. And we know the history because we are representing. People are looking at us and saying, why are you at the racist organization? Or do you know the history? And I think it is a disservice and it is wrong for so many members, especially these members in Africa that are being baptized, to not know what they are representing, because as soon as you get baptized and you take that name that you have to answer for these things. So I'm just so grateful for Matt. I'm grateful for you, John, to put this out there so that we can discuss it and have the space to talk about our experiences and our voices. So thank you guys for taking the time. And thank you, John.

Darren Smith [02:20:46] All right.

John Dehlin [02:20:47] Thank you, Summer Rain. Thank you, Nate. Thanks, Darren. Check out the Black menaces podcast on YouTube and also on TikTok and Instagram. Is that right?

Nate Bird [02:20:58] Yeah, we're. Yeah. Still. Still up on Spotify, YouTube, all that. You can look us up.

Summer Rain [02:21:03] All right.

John Dehlin [02:21:04] And, Summer, anything you want to give a shout out to in your world?

Summer Rain [02:21:09] No. Shout out to America.

Darren Smith [02:21:11] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:21:13] Yeah, absolutely. Go America. And. And. And then finally, a shout out to Matt Harris. Please buy this book, Second Class Saints, Black Mormons and the Struggle for Racial Equality. Please donate to this episode to allow it to continue to this series. You can go to donorbox.org Matt Harris, like, 60 of you have donated, and I know tens of thousands of you have watched. So if, like, another 50 people could become monthly donors at, like, 10 bucks a month. Come on, y'. All. 10 bucks a month. We'll get this series finished and we'll pay Matt what he deserves for his participation on it. Anyway, thanks again. Check us check out the series on Spotify on YouTube and on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch it as a playlist, a standalone playlist on YouTube, on the Mormon Stories Podcast YouTube channel. Or you can see it as a standalone podcast on Spotify or on Apple Podcasts. Be good to each other, be kind to each other, and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast. Take care.

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