Welcome and Guest Introductions

John Dehlin [00:00:13] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. I'm here with my dear, amazing, brilliant partner, Margi. We're on location in Nashville, Tennessee, or better said, in Brentwood and Tennessee. We are here with Darren and Jennifer Rogers. They have been so gracious and kind enough to invite us here not only to do an amazing, epic three plus hour interview with them, but also to host a Mormon Stories meetup where we're going to have over 150 people from all over the region. Not just Tennessee, but also Kentucky and Georgia and other states, literally for one purpose, to find friends and community of support while they're going through their own Mormon faith journeys or, you know, left the church, or left the church a long time ago and just need new friends and community. So we're super excited to be here, super grateful you'd have us, and we're so excited to dive in and learn more about your epic Mormon story. So, Darren and Jennifer Rogers, welcome to Mormon Stories Podcast. Thanks for joining us.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:01:21] Thank you so much. Happy to be here.

John Dehlin [00:01:23] As always on Mormon Stories Podcast, our goal is to just give people space to tell their story and to share what the Mormon Church meant to them in their lives and if they've moved on, to kind of tell that part of the story too. So we're really excited to jump into it. And I think the main. One of the main themes today is going to be parenting beyond Mormonism, because y' all were kind of with Mormon Stories, as I understand it, like maybe even all the way back to 2005, 2006.

Darian Rogers [00:01:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:01:54] And so you've got like 12 years out of the church at this point.

Darian Rogers [00:01:57] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:01:57] And you felt passionately about talking about parenting and this conditioning that all of us Mormons have experienced that you can't raise happy, healthy, successful kids outside of a Mormon paradigm. But before we jump in, we always like to give people a chance to kind of share an intention, like why they're doing this interview. Because people sometimes get the wrong idea about why people come on Mormon Stories podcast. So, Jen, why don't you start, and Darren, you can add.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:02:25] Yeah, well, Darren and I both, the biggest goal is to give people hope that there's beauty on the other side of your pilgrimage of sorts of out of Mormonism, and the. The grace that you find along the way and the surprises of the people that actually show up for you is shockingly surprising. And so there's a lot of beauty in the struggle, and we want to show the progress, like the process what we went through, which was probably one of the most difficult times of our lives. That, man, if you can hang on like the roller coaster ride and get to that other side, you can get. Put your hands up on the, on the way down. Not that it's not going to go back up. Right. But it feels really good to let go and embrace it and be like, that was an amazing ride.

Margi Dehlin [00:03:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:23] Love it.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:03:24] Yeah.

Darian Rogers [00:03:25] Mine would be similar. Like, when I left Mormonism, I had a ton of fear. And so it's to give that guy who's. Who's scared hope and also a chance to give back. Like, I am not a. You can already hear my voice. I'm not a vulnerable, open person. I'm very closed off. And so it's, I've seen other people do it and listen to their struggles and. Yeah. And I'm hoping if I call out my vulnerability, I could actually be it. So we'll see if it works. We'll see if it works or not. But. But no, this is, it's, it's to provide hope. You know, we've kind of been on the other side of it with our kids kind of all leaving the house and you kind of look at it and say, hey, we made some, we made some good choices and we also made some, made some lousy ones, made some bad decisions. And, you know, we, we joke about being perfectly imperfect, and I probably fit more on the imperfect side than the perfect side. But anyway, it was kind of beautiful.

Margi Dehlin [00:04:29] Beautiful. Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:04:30] Margaret, anything you want to say before we jump in?

Margi Dehlin [00:04:33] Just that I'm really glad we're doing this interview. I think parenting is one of the first things I personally really felt for amidst our transition too, because I think that that conditioning around scarcity, just that without the religious piece, you've got nothing. Your children are like, empty of morals, empty of goodness, empty of. So I'm just really grateful that you both are showing up for this interview today. So thank you, thank you, thank you.

Growing Up in Tennessee Mormon Royalty

John Dehlin [00:05:04] So Jennifer's okay. We're in, we're in Tennessee. As I understand it, not only did you grow up in Tennessee, but I think your, your dad was kind of, you know, stake presidency level Mormon.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:05:15] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:05:16] So that sounds like it could have been at least a semi intense Mormon upbringing, but maybe not. But maybe let's start with giving you a chance to kind of paint the background of your Mormon upbringing.

Margi Dehlin [00:05:26] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:05:26] And what it meant to you maybe up through kind of high school time.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:05:30] High school, yeah. So my dad and mom are originally from Utah. They both Went to U of, um. And when my dad was in his 20s, I think my mom was probably pregnant. Well, for sure was pregnant with me at the time. He found some property out in Knoxville called Foxton Subdivision. And, like, just as an entrepreneur, pretty brave and courageous. And he and his best friend from all growing up started a company and came out here.

John Dehlin [00:05:59] Do you know why? Tennessee? Do you know why? Tennessee?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:06:01] I think he just found this pop property that was in bankruptcy. So very. I think it was very random. And they were like, let's go. Let's. Let's brave the. Yeah, let's go be trailblazers and do it. They were literally in their 20s, I think. Probably. Let's see. I'm 54 now.

Darian Rogers [00:06:19] Young and dumb and risky. Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:06:20] And risky ski. And. And so that's what brought us here. So I was born in Knoxville, and then we moved to Nashville when I was four. And we were. There were no Mormons, like, at all. Like, when we first started, we were in a little warehouse down in downtown Franklin out in the middle of nowhere. Like, it was almost like a trailer. Like, not. When I say warehouse, not big. Like, almost like a trailer like that you would see in a trailer park. That's where we were meeting.

John Dehlin [00:06:46] And there was nothing downtown Nashville or anything.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:06:48] Oh, my gosh, no. Downtown Nashville was, like, scarce. Not really safe. I mean, everybody went down there just for work. No, not. Not a ton of nightlife or anything. And so it was a branch.

John Dehlin [00:07:01] It wasn't a word.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:07:02] It was a branch. Yeah. And then we used to. Haywood Lane. I mean, Darren Smith has been on the podcast. Yeah. So he grew up here, but there's like. So we're one of, like, the old school family. So if, like, you heard our. The Ellsworth name, that everybody would be like, oh, you go way back.

John Dehlin [00:07:20] So you're kind of Tennessee royalty. You're Nashville royalty.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:07:23] Nashville royalty.

John Dehlin [00:07:24] Most likely for Mormons. Nashville Mormon royalty.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:07:27] Yes. And my dad was in the state presidency, and we would travel with him, so he would always take one or two of us with him. Every. Every time he would go, which was a beautiful thing because, like, that's that family component. So you think about people that are traveling for work all the time. Well, my dad did. Did his duty, but he always had his kids with him. So we were on the stand with him. We were like. He took us everywhere. So I thought that was a pretty amazing. Like, I don't have that experience of your dad working all the time and you not seeing him. We went with him. We Went to the office with him. We went to the hunting club with him. Like, very engaging, fun. Made everything fun.

John Dehlin [00:08:09] And for our never Mormons, a Mormon steak is like 10 congregations, so. So he would have been one of three men that led between eight and 10 congregations.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:08:18] And Todd Christofferson was a state president

John Dehlin [00:08:21] at the time who is currently a Mormon apostle.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:08:23] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:08:24] Okay.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:08:25] And I. Amazing memories of him and his family. Like, incredible. His wife Kathy is hilarious and off color sometimes and just keeps it real. Keeps it real. Like, it's just so authentic and real and, you know, says the things that nobody else will say in your ear that make you laugh and kind of not feel so insecure or take things too seriously. And Todd always made me feel loved. I never felt judged by him. I always felt unconditional love from him. He's an incredible human. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:05] So in what ways was your Mormon upbringing similar or dissimilar to what. What we all kind of experienced?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:09:12] So, I mean, Bible belt, which you. Which you understand. So the only Mormon there is a little bit of. Not of being a bit embarrassed. I mean, we were actually. I mean, in the Bible belt, so we had neighbors that wouldn't play with us. We had definitely, like, told that to stay away and not so definitely that ostracization from the outside community. And I always felt like a little bit of a misfit. An island of the misfit kid.

Darian Rogers [00:09:41] What about the story about, like, your boyfriend's always breaking up with you after church camp?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:09:44] Oh, yeah. In high school. Yeah. They would go to church camp and

John Dehlin [00:09:49] come back, like, Evangelical Christian church camp.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:09:54] Yes. He was a Presbyterian, my boyfriend through high school.

John Dehlin [00:09:57] Stay away from those Mormon churches.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:09:58] Whenever he watches this, he'll laugh hysterically because he was right. But anyway, he would come back from camp and be like, jen, I heard this, like, stones in a hat and all this. He was saying all the things, basically

John Dehlin [00:10:12] saying, you're in a cult, basically.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:10:13] Later. Yeah. And I was like, oh, that's not us. And you don't know what you're talking about. You know me. You see me like sticks finding water. Like money digging. No, no, no, that's not. Yeah. And just would deny. And he'd be like, two weeks later be like, okay, you're right. Your family's nothing like that. And we're good. So. Yeah. Just a lot of misunderstanding and feeling like a misfit. Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [00:10:41] What about your family, like, doing all the Mormon things? Did y' all behind the scenes?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:10:45] Very much. My family home evening every Monday. We were always Encouraged to invite friends. So it's like, no, you can't leave the house on Sundays or Mondays, but anybody's welcome to come here. So it was always really fun, as you probably have seen just being with me the last couple days. My home is a rotating door of humans, and everyone is welcome, and I love it. And if you meet me, you can always. Yeah, so that I got that from my mom and dad. That is a home where literally, I would call home in high school and one of my brother's friends would answer the phone and be like, hi, Ellsworth's house. And I'd be like, andy, is that you? Is anybody around? Nope, I just stopped by to grab a snack after school. So just very fun loving, you know, a lot of idyllic childhood memories, but also nuance, too. Like, if my, you know, if my dad met a general authority that he thought was controlling and egotistical, he would say so. He'd be like, yeah, I don't. I don't love that. I'm not impressed. Not impressed.

John Dehlin [00:11:56] That's different.

Margi Dehlin [00:11:56] Yeah, that is different.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:11:58] And yeah, he would always say, so. Not. Not that one. Don't have to listen to that one.

Margi Dehlin [00:12:03] Oh, how about your mom? Like, were there moments where you found your mom differentiating from things that you learned or heard or experienced with regard to religion or Less. So was it more your dad?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:12:14] No, it's both. It was both because, like, sleeveless tanks were not a thing until, obviously you're in garments. So until then, it was like, wear whatever you want.

John Dehlin [00:12:27] So your mom let you wear.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:12:29] Never was also very different. And, you know, my dad is an athlete and runs and exercises and golfs and, you know, he used to wear his garments golfing. I don't know if he does anymore, but not when he's mowing the lawn and going for runs and he's like, that's just not me. Sorry. So dad. He's a contrarian, my dad. So if you say one thing, he's always going to. There's always a rub, which I feel I got that from him. And it's one thing he despises about me now when going through this religious transition. Like, why are you such a contrarian? And I'm kind of like, Yeah, but, yeah, he always pushes back, which I like, some skepticism there. But at the same time, he is strictly obedient. Like, he does what he is asked to do. So never missed, like, 100% home teaching, always. But he did it really fun. Like, he'd invite him to go hunting or he'd invite him on a bike ride or he would like. It was always fun. He always played a game or took a message when he was seminary teacher. And my mom, they made it fun. Like had games and played like 10 minute lesson and the rest was game. So like I got 10 minutes to get ya and then the rest of the time let's just have fun and have breakfast. So. Both of my parents have been really amazing at making work playful. Like I love. We always had a garden and I loved it. And, and mowing the lawn. You, like, were excited to do it. I don't know how they did it. I tried it with my children.

Margi Dehlin [00:14:16] Yes, right.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:14:17] It did not work. I'm like, what's the special sauce here? Because I ain't got it. How did I not get that? But yes, like, loved to be. Yeah. Dad was like, you wanna go help me build a duck club and do dams? Yeah, like, what is that? You wanna go build a garden? Yes. Like, what kid is excited to see?

Margi Dehlin [00:14:38] It's like, wherever you are. Yes, I'm down to be with you.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:14:42] Yes. Because he and my mom just made it so fun. So, yeah.

Personal Spiritual Development in Youth

John Dehlin [00:14:47] Let's talk about your personal spiritual development in terms of your faith, your beliefs, going kind of into high school. How would you describe what was going on internally in terms of your church beliefs and faith in Heavenly Father and Jesus and Joseph Smith, all that Book of Mormon, the church, all that stuff.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:15:03] So my first really questioning, and I remember it very, very vividly, we were at the Haywood Lane building, which was where Darren Smith went, which was like our first, one of our first church buildings. And it was 1978 and they announced that blacks could have the priesthood. And I remember being eight years old, sitting in the pew. I'm in the middle of the south where they are, there's, you know, there's busing and integration and I am so against race. Like, it just disgusted me. And I heard that and I was like, looked at my dad or my mom. I just remember going, wait, they couldn't have it. Like, wait, what? Why are we all so happy? They're just getting it. Like, I was so confused by it because everyone was sitting in the pews crying and so elated. And I was like, but they should have had it all. It was very confusing for me. So that's like kind of my first experience, especially growing up in the south

John Dehlin [00:16:08] and just for a never Mormon audience. Before 1978, the Mormon Church excluded black members, men from having the priesthood, and then men and women from temple blessings so eternal marriage and your endowments and all the most sacred, important ordinances and powers that a man or a woman has in the church were excluded based on race for over 150 years. And then I remember that as well.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:16:34] It was shocking to me. And I just remember that was my first cognitive, dissonant moment. Now that I know what that is, I'm like, that was my first right there. And then.

John Dehlin [00:16:46] What about your faith, though? Before the cracks, I was only 8.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:16:52] And so I'm a pleaser, very codependent. I'm finding out now through therapy. But, yeah, so I was. Whatever. Whatever you're gonna tell me to do, I'm gonna do. I idolized my mom and dad. They could do no wrong. And I still do in a lot of ways. And, yeah, so it was just like, I trust them. Todd Christofferson, this beautiful, loving, kind. He's at my house. We're playing games because we were friends. Like, we were. We were. That's. We only had. It was such a small, tight community. That's back when you could have food at the. I mean, we just had fun. We made it so fun.

John Dehlin [00:17:32] So God, Jesus, Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, you. You just never.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:17:37] Never questioned.

John Dehlin [00:17:38] Okay, so you started with just those assumptions.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:17:41] Yeah, just born that way.

John Dehlin [00:17:42] So at 8, that's when you first started to have your first question?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:17:46] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:17:47] Is that what you're saying?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:17:47] Yes. And then I remember getting baptized and being terrified. I got baptized. When? With Laurie and Chris Hutchinson. We were the same age and they were twins and we had the same birthday. I still keep in touch with them, which is kind of fun. But, yeah, we got. I remember specifically getting baptized on the same day and being terrified about making a mistake right afterwards.

Margi Dehlin [00:18:13] Just this idea of being. And so pure after.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:18:17] I very vividly meet. Remember feeling fearful. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:25] Okay. So going into high school, how did you navigate your strong belief, your family relationships? Growing up in high school, that was mostly evangelical Christian and looking forward to what the church would want for you and from you.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:18:45] Right.

John Dehlin [00:18:45] How was that all working in high school? So as a woman, Awful.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:18:50] Oh, so that's what. Yes. So it went. Because that's when you start getting the modesty conversations. That's when you start getting the sexual conversations. Like, before you even know what petting is.

John Dehlin [00:19:06] Tell our viewers and listeners what? Those are the ones who don't know what. What do you mean?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:19:10] So as a young woman, modesty is massive. And so, like, covering your shoulders, nothing above your knee, like, almost feels very, very restrictive. As far as your Dress. And you. You definitely got the sense that you were responsible for making sure men did not look at you. Like that was your job. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:34] Did that bug you? How did that affect you?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:19:36] It felt shaming. Yeah. It just. I was ashamed to be a female.

Margi Dehlin [00:19:41] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:19:41] If that makes any sense. Like, don't be. Don't be. Don't be you.

Margi Dehlin [00:19:48] Right.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:19:49] In a really weird way, it's. It's an out of. It's very discombobulated. It's like you have to detach from who you are.

Margi Dehlin [00:19:58] Disconnected.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:19:59] It's very.

Margi Dehlin [00:19:59] Your body experience.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:20:01] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:02] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:20:03] And so I remember thinking boys were cute and, you know, and then having sisters that were older who grew up in the church who had the same conditioning, almost like being. Making fun of me or also making me feel bad about liking boys or having boys like me or having boys call the house or, like, anything with boys was, you know, like, not good.

John Dehlin [00:20:29] And what was your understanding about why they were so terrified of boys on your behalf? Doctrinally.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:20:36] Doctrinally, yeah. I think that, like, Dre, you're. You're responsible for not. Don't let them look at you. So it's like.

John Dehlin [00:20:45] Because what happens if.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:20:46] If they do, then they get sexually aroused. If I can be, like, super detailed. You don't cause a man to think a bad thought. And in Mormonism, if you think a bad thought, like, it's just as bad as doing it. Like, that was. I remember vividly reading that and hearing it.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:03] Yep.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:21:04] That a thought is just as bad as an actual. Like, oh, my gosh, we're all effed. Screwed.

Darian Rogers [00:21:11] That's why you should go ahead and do it. If you're damaged, well, might as well.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:21:17] Might as well.

John Dehlin [00:21:18] But what was the church's teachings around premarital sex, as you remember.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:21:22] Oh, it's worse than death. I mean, our next two murder. And I believed it, literally, and had, like. Yeah, yeah. Like, full on you. Like, if you've not seen the Book of Mormon musical where there's Hitler and

John Dehlin [00:21:38] the Starbucks Spooky Mormon Hell dream. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:41] Yes.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:21:41] The Spooky Mormon Hell. So, like, yeah, Like, I was like, I'm Ted Bundy. I'm there with those kinds of people. Like, and it wasn't just sex. It was petting. Like, I was just as terrified for any kind of sexual exploration whatsoever, which is very normal, very natural. But I mean. I mean, Darren and I have talked about, like, your first kiss is so confusing because you're like, oh, my God, that was so great. Oh, my God, I'm terrible. Oh my God, that was so amazing. Oh my God, I'm a sinner. Like, it is this wild roller coaster and all your friends are like your first kiss. Your first kiss. Talk like excited. Never had that experience with my mom ever. I don't think she would have been happy for me for my first kiss. I think she would have been afraid. Yeah. Oh, shit. You've done that too soon. Wait, you're too what? Your first kiss. Well, you know where that goes. Like just there was no connection with really important times in a growing up life. Like to come home and be like, guess what, mom, we kissed. None of that. Couldn't even do it with my sisters because I was sexually shamed by my sisters as well. And I don't blame them. I blame the culture that they were like that messaging and young women's. What girl is not going to project that? When you're hurt people. Hurt people. Who's not going to project that?

Sexual Shaming and the Role of Women in the Church

Margi Dehlin [00:23:17] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:23:18] If they feel like damaged goods.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:20] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:23:20] And maybe there's a bit of like a protection, like they're trying to protect you. Like don't, don't go down my same path. And so maybe there's like, if I were to figure out why, because it felt just very cruel and shaming. Yeah. But maybe the intention was to be. I mean, I'd like to believe that the intention of my siblings, my sisters were, you know, maybe to try and keep me away from what they had experienced. But the way that it was done was maybe the way the church does it, which is fear and shame.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:55] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:23:55] Which is really sad.

Darian Rogers [00:23:57] It is crazy. We rank that sin like next to murder. Like it's a bit nuts, especially for like teenagers like that, that, that teaching is just so like there's a lot more sins that I could rank up higher on the list. Like if you talk to a regular person, it doesn't even make the list. Like it's not even the top 25.

John Dehlin [00:24:17] And the problem is it's in the Book of Mormon. So what do they do?

Darian Rogers [00:24:20] Take it out?

John Dehlin [00:24:21] They can't take it out.

Darian Rogers [00:24:22] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:22] Okay. So I'm curious about how as a teen you, you like what messaging you received around what makes a woman valuable in the church? What are the things that make women, you know, and thinking about the young women values at that time or, or whatever.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:24:43] This sounds really bad, but if I'm like the first thing out of my brain is her virginity and that sounds really bad, but that is the message I got was her virginity is her value and a virginity in every way. Like, don't even show your skin virginity like that. Your, like your value is in covering up and getting small.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:08] Yeah, right.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:25:10] Don't be like covering up and getting small. And the thing that I experienced in young women's was women being cruel to women because of this messaging and within my own home. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:24] So kind of taking that message, taking that messaging in as a. As a way to kind of be violent or to each other, hold each other accountable. Absolutely.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:25:35] So gross.

John Dehlin [00:25:36] Because effective organizations get members to enforce

Margi Dehlin [00:25:39] the rules, to do it for them,

John Dehlin [00:25:40] to each other, so that we're great

Darian Rogers [00:25:42] at policing each other, but in a

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:25:44] really horrific, horrendous way. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:48] And then also, I'm kind of curious, in your teen years, what did you differentiate at all around the role of a woman? I think for me, I'll just speak for me and young women's. Right. There's a lot of messaging around getting married, having children. The temple was like the end. All of the young women experience education. It's sort of like, well, if it can make you a better mother or a better wife, then sure, but probably not the most important thing. So how did you relate to whatever messaging? What was the messaging you got with the role of women and did you differentiate with it or was it a great fit for you at that time?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:26:28] I kicked and screamed. No, I hated it. And it's interesting because so I felt all that for sure.

John Dehlin [00:26:36] What were you talking about? Your gender role?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:26:38] My gender role was to be a good girl, don't be a problem. But I mean, the teacher is a wife and mother. A wife and mother. What about education and work within the Mormon culture? No, I think education to teach your kids, education to be better for your. For others, but not education for the betterment of yourself.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:02] Right.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:27:03] And so I think that's where my codependency, like, I feel like the culture within Mormonism really is a breeding ground for narcissism and codependency and toxic relationship. Because you're taught to defend the indefensible and not be really accountable for, like, cruelty because it's under the guise of God. So no accountability for like, mistakes or problems that have happened with your messaging. Right. Like, well, it was cruel, but like, it should have been because that's what you should be hearing. Cover up. If it's cruel, it's because you're bad, not because the message is cruel, but, like, it shouldn't feel cruel. Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [00:27:49] What about career?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:27:51] No, absolutely not.

John Dehlin [00:27:52] What do you mean?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:27:53] What were you taught not to have one only A career that keeps you, allows you to still be a mom. And Darren and I have talked about this. How the new generations are dealing with that. Is Instagram becoming Instagram? What do you call that? Influencers. That is how Mormon women, all of my friends who are not in Mormonism are like, what is up with all these Mormon influencers? What is it? And I'm like, for me, if I were to like psychoanalyze it, it's like these women are just screaming to be seen and heard in this religion. And how do I do it? How do I not have. How do I not get small? Also how do I help make money? And also presenting that perfect picture so I can do this and get. Look what I'm doing for my religion. Look how good I'm looking. Look how wonderful I'm making. Yeah. So it's still not like it's for the. It's for the woman, but she's not allowed to say it's for her, which. What's wrong with that? What's wrong with going, I'm doing this for me? Like, why is that? Taken me Till I was 54 to say that out loud.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:03] Yeah.

Career Aspirations Versus Church Expectations

John Dehlin [00:29:05] What did you natively want for yourself in terms of career?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:29:09] As a high school, I was always. Wanted a career. I was always driven. I was a daddy's little girl. And my dad loved my feistiness, he loved my competitive nature. He, I mean, he, he never told me to get small ever. He always had, like, was proud of who I was, let's just say in the athletic arena. Oh, isn't that interesting? So within athletics, it's okay to be competitive, it's okay to be big, it's okay to be seen, it's okay to be heard. That's the one place I was allowed to. You know how we talked about how you run and it's where you push yourself self for pain to help work out your stuff. So athletics became my coping because I was allowed to go as big and as hard as I wanted to. And I was allowed to be good and I was allowed to be better. I see, right? Like it's okay if I'm better than you because then that only makes you better. Like that team, that whole Caitlin Clark, why she's so great? Well, why are we huge fans? Like, why do I. Well, one, because my husband's from Iowa. But two is it's this beautiful thing playing out on television and the world is accepting it because it's in an athletic arena. But take Caitlin Clark and those women and put them in A corporation doesn't happen.

Margi Dehlin [00:30:51] That's right. Take the competitive or politically take that sort of. And it plays out.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:30:57] It's okay. On a sports field.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:00] Yeah, got it.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:31:01] What is that? And I think it's culturally.

John Dehlin [00:31:04] So you did want a career.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:31:06] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:31:06] But. But always. But you felt that that was not going to be okay and so you channeled it into sports. Is that what you're saying?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:31:14] No, I always had. I told you I was going to have a career. I was like, I'm not your typical Mormon girl. I'm going to. I defied. Yeah, I'm a bit of a rebel. And I get that from my dad.

John Dehlin [00:31:25] Okay.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:31:26] Yeah, my dad's a rebel. And I defied. And I was like, no, I want a career. And the reason is because my mom grew up in a really. Her dad was a raging, abusive alcoholic, and my grandmother had no way to escape that. And so my mom, from the time she was very little, was like, don't you ever put yourself in a situation where you are dependent on a man? So that's one thing that she did outside of Mormonism. She was like, very encouraged for education for yourself, but for sure, if something ever to happen to your husband was more of the thing. But I took that generationally and said no. For me, I did my take on my mom's kind of. I leveled up on my mom's advice, if that makes sense.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:18] I'm noticing some differentiation between your family culture and kind of church. The church culture overall. But I am noticing also really in line when it comes to like, modesty, sexual purity. Would you say that's true?

John Dehlin [00:32:34] Gender roles.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:32:34] Mass and gender roles. Massive gender roles.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:37] Okay.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:32:37] Yes. Yes.

Darian's Path to NCAA Division One Basketball

John Dehlin [00:32:39] Okay. So knowing that you ended up playing basketball at BYU while we were there.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:32:43] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:32:44] Do you want to talk about. Just really quickly before we jump to Darren's story, just like, what sports and basketball particularly were and how you ended up playing NCAA Division 1.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:54] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:32:55] Basketball.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:32:56] Yeah. So sp. Sports were. My. Growing up in my household was a little tricky. I had a sibling that I did not get along with. So I never really felt safe at home. Unfortunately, I did with. When we were all together, but I never felt. I never felt safe by myself, if that makes any sense. And so sports were how I could leave. So if I just needed to. If someone was home and I needed to not be in that space. Space. I would go outside and shoot basketball. Does that make sense? Like, it was kind of my way of escaping without hurting someone's feelings. Like, I'm going away because I don't Want to be with you. No, I'm going away because I'm gonna shoot basketball or I'm gonna ride a bike or I'm gonna go play in the woods. So that was really my coping. It's also like when I was the most sad, that's what I would do. I think there is some repetitive like ritual. There's ritual within sports that is healing. So like going and practicing free throws and doing the same thing over and over again and not letting myself leave until I made a hundred in a row.

Margi Dehlin [00:34:02] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:34:02] That is how I dealt with a bad day. Yeah, truly. Or I'm going to teach myself how to shoot a left handed layup. And so from the time I was little, I had goals to play beautiful basketball in college. I don't know why I grabbed onto basketball, but I did. I love the team aspect. And I never felt safe around girls because of what I explained earlier. I always felt safer around men because I'm an athlete and I'm a guy's girl. I'm not a typical girl. So I just felt safer there because I was like, they just like to go play sports. And so I'm with them. I'm going to go play sports and watch sports and I don't want to talk about all the, whatever you guys are doing. It's not my thing. But yeah, and so I had a goal to play when I was little, I wrote in my journal and it was at a, it was at a youth fireside and they. I was 12 and it said to write in your journal where you want to be in, see however many years. Right. Like 18 or 21 or whatever. Right. And you put it in an envelope and you sealed it and then it says not to be opened until this date.

Margi Dehlin [00:35:19] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:35:20] And so I did that and I, one of, one of the things was to be best friends with my older sister who I struggle. Our relationship really struggled. So that was always a goal, every year is to be best friends with her. My second goal was to play sports at an Ivy League. That was like a massive.

John Dehlin [00:35:42] That's not byu.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:35:44] No, it is not. I wanted to play at an Ivy League school. Really, really important to me because I wanted my. I was an achiever. That's probably a Mormon thing, but high, high, high, high achieving. And then yeah, if I'm not moving, I think I'm failing. Which is really sick and twisted. And then that was in there. And then going on a mission, which, for the church to Hawaii.

John Dehlin [00:36:14] Wait, you wanted Hawaii?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:36:16] I wrote that.

John Dehlin [00:36:17] You wrote Hawaii.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:36:18] I wrote Hawaii. And I'll tell you the story of how that. So if you want to talk like spoiler.

Darian Rogers [00:36:25] Spoiler alert.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:36:26] Yes, it's a spoiler alert. So I wrote. So that was in there playing basketball in Ivy League and going on a mission to Hawaii.

John Dehlin [00:36:33] So super quickly, what was it like? How did you achieve that basketball dream and end up at byu?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:36:40] I worked my ass off. I got invited to a blue chip camp out at Pepperdine. Also a future trip. As you know my story where my son. Spoiler alert. And it was like dream of dreams because Ivy Leagues were going to be there and I was obsessed. So Jennifer A.C. i don't know if you guys know who she is, but she was a basketball player from Oak Ridge, Tennessee. She is a coach and she is a broadcaster some too. And I played against her and I idolized her. She is this beautiful, curly brown hair, just badass. She played for Stanford, wonder, ncaa, I mean, then played for the Olympic women's team and then also played in the wnba. So I was like, I'm following her. Like, if she can do it, I can do it. And I just was like, she. I hope she hears this one day. That freaking idolized her.

John Dehlin [00:37:37] And so in high school, did your teams do well? Did you do well?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:37:40] We had. I did well. I always made state, but we made state.

John Dehlin [00:37:44] What do you mean?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:37:45] Like the substate or state teams. And I got made all district and. And I was mvp. Yeah, I was MVP of all of the. I was a bit of a badass.

John Dehlin [00:37:55] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:37:56] Good. When it came to sports. But I think it's. Cause it was where I got out my rage.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:00] Yeah, it was like a major outlet for.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:38:03] A massive outlet where I could just let everything out.

John Dehlin [00:38:08] So were you recruited by lots of universities or.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:38:10] So I was at the time. BYU was my only option. Unfortunately, I was heavily recruited by Princeton. So my dream had come true. And this is where the church conditioning comes in that plays out. And took it to my mom. And the coach was calling me saying, you know, you've got the grades, you've got what you need. I'm like, done. I have like. And my mom was just like, number one, we can't afford it. And I was like, well, they'll. There's scholar. Like not. They don't do scholarships, but they do like aid. Like, they will work with you. And I was like, mom, they will work with us. And she's like, it's not even on our radar, honey. I'm sorry. BYU is your only option. So it was like I had no Choice. My choices were taken from me, and it was devastating, but I couldn't show it because I was a peacemaker in my home and my parents had enough shit on their plate. And so I really wasn't allowed to show emotions other than the positive ones. Positive ones. Yeah. And so it was absolutely. Can you imagine? Like, you've reached your dream and it's just. And I had it. And I was just like, how did you feel?

John Dehlin [00:39:29] Like, how did you feel?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:39:31] You can still hear it. My voice. It is, like, so devastating. Yeah. To work that hard for something and then have somebody go, no. And not even try or even try and find a workaround or, like a. Let's see what we can do. Let's. You know what? Nothing wrong with going down dead ends. Like I talked about, like, what's wrong with going down a dead end? You just turn around. But you went as far as you could. Let's take this as far as we can. So. So none of that. Just. Sorry.

John Dehlin [00:40:03] I'm so sorry.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:40:04] It was super devastating.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:06] I can imagine.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:40:07] So BYU was not my happy place initially. I did not want to go. I didn't go to any of the. I, like, didn't even find a roommate. I showed up right. The day before school started. All I had was an individual room at the end of the hall. Showed up depressed and not happy to be there. And that was really hard. Really, really hard.

John Dehlin [00:40:31] Thank you for sharing. Thank you. I'm so sorry.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:40:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:36] That's hard. Were you recruited by Princeton?

Margi Dehlin [00:40:41] Princeton?

John Dehlin [00:40:42] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:42] No, not in particular.

John Dehlin [00:40:43] Brown. Who was it?

Margi Dehlin [00:40:44] Columbia.

John Dehlin [00:40:45] Columbia. I knew it was one of those.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:40:47] Ah, Columbia.

John Dehlin [00:40:49] So Margi ended up. Yes. Running from byu. Right.

Darian Rogers [00:40:53] At the same time, we were likely in the hall.

John Dehlin [00:40:55] Y' all were paralleling each other. Yes. Same high school graduating class.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:00] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:41:00] So y' all would have been athletes at BYU together.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:41:02] 100%. Same training.

John Dehlin [00:41:04] You would have walked by, same.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:41:05] You got taped by the same people sat in the same hot tub.

John Dehlin [00:41:09] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:41:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:10] Anyway.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:10] That's right. What I'm noticing about as you're telling your story about that, first of all, you know, basketball being an outlet for you, a place you kind of turn to work through difficult things and to maybe tap into a side of yourself where you got a lot of. It was like an asset in basketball or in sports is too like being in environments where you don't have control, like a family system or a home as a. As a younger person, and then taking control in a way with sport like you can. Right.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:41:45] I took control.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:46] I will work harder than I Will train harder. I will do all the things. And that you did that for year after year after year and, and got yourself into the position where all that work control that you poured into that and then to have it taken out of your control once again, you know that you're in this place where. Oh. And it's actually not up to me. In this moment.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:42:10] It's not up to me.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:11] I'm just feeling for it.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:42:13] Yeah, yeah. It was, it was like, oh, shit. It's not up to me.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:18] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:42:18] Wow. Okay. It's almost like, oh, you don't have my back or you don't see me. It's the first time I was like, I've been such a good girl. Like, I really, I thought I did everything I needed to do.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:33] Yes.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:42:34] You're like, I'm pleased have your support. I pleased. I did. I did all the things. It's very effortful, as it turns out.

Darian Rogers [00:42:42] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:42:43] I did stay out one night past 2:00 clock and you busted me. But I told you exactly where I was. And they were like, you're good, go to bed. But yeah, it was devastating. And how the way you put it is exactly it. It's that control piece. Because you don't have control. And that's the one thing I wanted to give to my kids. Like, if I'm going to go ahead and jump to that is you are in control of your own destiny from day one. And we are here to.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:18] Yeah, but that's where that was birthed. Was in that moment.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:43:21] Totally birthed in that moment.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:23] Wow.

John Dehlin [00:43:23] Powerful. And once y' all hear about their kids, you'll know why that's significant. Well, thank you, Darren.

Darian Rogers [00:43:31] I gotta talk now.

John Dehlin [00:43:32] Tell us about your sit and look pretty the whole time you're doing that too, babe.

Darian Rogers [00:43:38] What do you need to know, John?

John Dehlin [00:43:39] Tell us about your Mormon upbringing.

Darian Rogers [00:43:41] So I grew up all over the Midwest. My dad worked for JCPenney's and so I was kind of a retail brat is what we joke about. And we moved from small town to small town. And when we talk small town, we're talking like 8,000 people in the whole town. And it was when J.C. penney's was in downtown areas and it was kind of a dying concept. We'd move in, Walmart would move in about two years later and we'd pack up and move out because it was just kind of, it was shutting down, like small town Walmart, but really the most being North Dakota, South Dakota and Iowa. Iowa and North Dakota is kind of in all at the Branch level. So like a ward building. I never saw one. Like a gymnasium was like, what is this? You know, we would drive, we would drive when we lived In Iowa, about 30 minutes to this small, even smaller town because it was like where everyone else was coming from. And it looked like an outhouse. Like, I mean it was like, it's, you know, just the chapel's tiny and all those things. So both my parents worked at a very young age and so there were five boys and we were kind of, we really raised ourselves on their own. As much as, you know, my mom, Peter Pan. Sorry, mom, I love you. But we were kind of like the Lost boys. It was like the youngest two got to go to like a nanny, but really 10, 8, 7, we're all on our own. And it was kind of like, you know, it's five boys, it's a fend for yourself. Like you want to know how to eat? Here's some chips. This is cheese. You put it on the microwave for 60 seconds, you should be good for life.

Margi Dehlin [00:45:20] That's all you need to do.

Darian Rogers [00:45:21] That's enough. That's enough. I can also teach you a hot dog and then you're good to go.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:45:25] Make sure you put a fork in it so it doesn't blow up in your microwave.

Darian Rogers [00:45:29] Yeah, yeah. So there's a piece of us that, you know, we are a little bit. Jennifer jokes. I'm, I'm the Peter Pan of the Lost Boys because I don't want to grow up, that kind of thing.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:45:39] But yeah, which is why I married him. But it's also makes it hard. It's like the, both the.

Darian Rogers [00:45:45] Yes and, and as a kid I didn't. For some reason small towns just did not fit me. I felt very like claustrophobic. I felt like, you know, I just couldn't wait to get out. And I, I kind of self reflect back now and I'm like, I'm not even sure why. But then I go home and I go, yeah, I know why. I have a 3 day maximum stay in my small town. Like after 3 days it feels really long. But so yeah, so there was that, you know, Mormonism was. I was very skeptical. So you know a branch. We might have 50 people and there's like youth program is like myself and like we're going to cover all the ranges. So it's like we only have one teacher for 18 year olds to 12 year olds.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:46:34] Like oh yeah.

Darian Rogers [00:46:35] There's like so like community. When I was going through it kind of grew as I left, but it was kind of like, that you're a little skeptical. Like, I'm supposed to be special. I'm supposed to believe all this. But why aren't there more people here?

Margi Dehlin [00:46:49] This is not looking like it.

Darian Rogers [00:46:53] Totally so true. So it was very, like, I was. I was that kid, you know, that was. You know, there's. There's.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:47:00] We have it all, right. There is everywhere.

Darian Rogers [00:47:05] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:47:07] One true church with 12 people. Yes.

Darian Rogers [00:47:10] Sounds great.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:47:11] Are we wrong or are they wrong?

Darian Rogers [00:47:14] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was. I was pretty skeptical and almost. I was probably a lukewarm, like, you know, we have the scripture about being lukewarm and I'll spew out. I wasn't into being spewed out, so I was like, I'll be by 3 degrees above lukewarm, but I'm not going to be hot.

John Dehlin [00:47:32] Okay.

Darian Rogers [00:47:32] And I'm not going to be cold either.

John Dehlin [00:47:33] Okay.

Darian Rogers [00:47:34] Because that seems like too much effort. So I'm going to be just slightly above lukewarm.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:47:39] Yeah, well, average. Nothing wrong with average.

John Dehlin [00:47:42] But.

Darian Rogers [00:47:43] Yeah. So it was, you know, it was this kind of. Lots of spaces, you know, motorcycles and BMX bikes, riding all over North Dakota and trails and all that kind of stuff. But, you know, I was thinking about, like, growing up. There's one experience, and you guys may have experienced this, too, that had an impact in my life was. I think I was like 12, and there was this, like, because. Because I had to be in, like, the young men's program. And there was this special evening where it was a combined activity of, like, young. Young men and young women and adults. And all of a sudden I know I got to go to church on a Sunday night, which is not usual. I already gave you three hours. That's.

Pre-Mission Faith and Spiritual Doubts

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:48:24] You're not happy about it, right?

Darian Rogers [00:48:26] I'm not happy about it because going an extra hour is past my lukewarm tendencies. But I'm like, I'm in. I'll show up. And it was an event where you walked into the chapel and they had. You were now in the. What do you call it? Pre existence.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:43] Correct.

Darian Rogers [00:48:44] So it was. You are now have entered into pre existence, and you are here to gain a body and play the plan of salvation game. And so for non Mormons, the pre existence is the belief that we all live with God spiritually before we came to Earth. And so we're all gathered in there and we were in a real chapel because then we turned around and they opened up the folding doors back to the gymnasium.

John Dehlin [00:49:11] Were you all asked to dress in white?

Darian Rogers [00:49:13] We did not have to dress I don't remember dressing. No, I don't think we had a dressing.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:16] Like, can you imagine?

Darian Rogers [00:49:17] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:49:17] I can't imagine. I can't imagine. But this is a branch. This is a branch.

Darian Rogers [00:49:21] This is a branch. But they have turned the gymnasium now into the world. Like, this is the world, and you're getting your body. You're going into the world. And as you pass through these doors, you're given talents, and I think you may have been given 10 talents, and there's not a whole lot of instruction other than that. But being a competitive kid, I'm like, this is a game. I can figure out how to win this thing, right? And. And real quickly, you realize, like, there are. There are different rooms set up that are worldly and, yeah, churchy, fun, and boring.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:02] You live forever, and it's miserable.

John Dehlin [00:50:07] And if you die,

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:50:10] you can be with all the other people that are.

Darian Rogers [00:50:12] There's, like. There's, like, a dance room where they get the disco balls, but you're tempted. There's got to be some cute girls in there. There's got to be something fun going on there. There's a soda area that you're like,

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:50:26] do not get distracted.

Darian Rogers [00:50:27] You can go get a soda.

John Dehlin [00:50:28] You probably had Coke, right?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:50:30] Yes, they had Coke. There are coffee, and then you can

Darian Rogers [00:50:35] choose to go to the temple, or you can go do genealogy. You could go to, like, you know, do a service project instead of a disco ball dance. But what you. Once again, I'm competing, right? I'm competing. So this. This guy's gonna, like, you find out if you go to the fun space, you give a talent, and it costs you a talent. But if you go to the churchy thing, you give a talent, but you get two back.

John Dehlin [00:50:58] No.

Darian Rogers [00:50:58] Right? So I'm like. I'm like, okay, I got this figured out. I'm gonna be churchy for the day because I'm gonna win this.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:05] Not so complicated.

John Dehlin [00:51:05] These are talents, like money. Okay, got it.

Darian Rogers [00:51:15] No real talents. It's an important question to ask. And so. So anyway, so I'm raking it in, right? I'm killing it, and all of a sudden, the spell goes off, and now it's judgment time. And so next thing I know, everyone's kind of lining up to now go back into the chapel. You guys did not experience this little. This little thing, huh?

John Dehlin [00:51:36] It's iconic.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:51:38] It's a thing. I said it was a stake. It was like.

John Dehlin [00:51:41] The version that I have is, like, a plane crashes.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:51:44] Yes. Yes.

Darian Rogers [00:51:46] All right, so now the bell goes off, and we're getting ready to get judged. So, so everybody gets in line. I get in line in the back and it takes forever to like for the line to move.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:51:56] Cause you're lining up, right?

Darian Rogers [00:51:58] But as I'm going, waiting to get through the line to my right is this pizza, right? It was like the pizza area that I've avoided, I've avoided the world the whole time I've been doing the good stuff, the church stuff, but I am starving and there is this piece of pizza that looks delicious to me. And it's not delicious pizza, it's like this half baked biscuit that's squashed down with fingers with some tomato sauce. But I'm like, that looks so good. Fricking piece of pizza. You gotta have it, right? So I reach out to get the piece of pizza while I'm in line and now I feel guilty cause it was like a doll. It's like a talent to get a piece of pizza right. So I'm like, take my one talent, slide it back even though nobody's there, right? I'm like, I'm a little honest boy. I've been doing good the whole time. Slide back, go through the judgment line. I am one talent short of the celestial kingdom in which in the Mormon world is the highest level. Only one short, one talent short.

John Dehlin [00:53:02] Heavenly Father's presence for eternity for a

Darian Rogers [00:53:05] lousy, no good, didn't even finish it. Bite a biscuit pizza, right? But that little story stuck with me like my whole like even in like you're sitting in the sections and I'm like, I can see my sleigh, I can see my parents in the celestial kingdom. I'm looking for my older brother and I'm like, he's gotta be up. No, he's actually in the back. He's been in the telescope kingdom, so I gotta mock him a little bit. But it just was one of those moments where it like stuck with you. Like hey, don't blow it for a piece of biscuit pizza.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:53:40] For a piece of biscuit pizza.

Margi Dehlin [00:53:41] That's right.

Darian Rogers [00:53:42] But so anyway, that story stuck with me. But going to high school I was kind of once again, one foot in, one foot out. It was, you know, seminary is taught. We have seminary in my home in my basement with one other student and his mom. I'm going to show up 20 minutes late every day because I don't want to be there. I don't have an interest. And she was actually an amazing teacher because all of a sudden I started like listening and I was like, oh, that's what the Book of Mormon's about. I've never actually read that thing, you know. Oh, we're like learning stories. And she was really dynamic and wonderful. But it makes me laugh to think, like, I'm always showing up late. Like, what's the latest I can show up? And you'll still give me attendance.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:28] Right?

Darian Rogers [00:54:29] But. And it was a challenge in high school. So, like, there were no other Mormons period to end. So any girl I dated in high school is not gonna be Mormon. And I'm gonna put distance between her and me. Cause, like, you know, I'm not supposed to be dating you, but I got no one else to date. We gotta have this relationship.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:54:49] They all probably thought he was a jerk, you know, maybe because he would, like, date him and then. And then. But never got. Certainly never would get too close. For sure.

Darian Rogers [00:55:00] Yeah. But in all high school, I'm kind of. I have a lot of fear. Like, I don't know where my fear came from. It's like a fear of dying. And so I had an older brother.

John Dehlin [00:55:10] What in the world would make you afraid of dying? I don't know

Darian Rogers [00:55:17] where it came from.

John Dehlin [00:55:18] Were there little bad pizzas, like, haunting you in your death dreams?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:55:22] Like in the bubbles, the thought bubbles.

John Dehlin [00:55:25] You had your own spooky Mormon health, but instead of Mormon Starbucks and DMer and Hitler, it was fat pizza.

Margi Dehlin [00:55:32] But you say that we're making light of it, but I'm so real.

John Dehlin [00:55:36] You were afraid.

Darian Rogers [00:55:37] So, like, my oldest brother did not buy into Mormonism early on. And he, he, he partied, he smoked. You know, I found weed in this. I'm just going to get a pair of socks and I find a bunch of joints and, you know, and I, as a good Mormon, judged him. I told my parents when I saw him drunk. And shortly thereafter, my oldest brother was, like, shipped off. Like, he was gone. And their theory was he had graduated high school. They didn't like the decisions he was making going to this community college. I had a cousin in Arizona. They were both kind of like, I was one foot in, one foot out.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:56:13] They were Jack Mormons is what we used to call.

Margi Dehlin [00:56:16] Yeah.

Darian Rogers [00:56:16] And they're like, hey, if we put. Put them together, they'll help each other get back. And they are still amazing friends today, but they had a lot of fun together. But my parents dream of them coming back. Never happened.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:56:32] And talk about your guilt. You talk about how, like, you've teared up before, about how guilty you felt. He felt like, Doug's getting shipped off. He's Like, I caused that. I was. That I tattletaled. So he's like, honestly cried to me about it and just been like, I. Like, I did that to him.

Darian Rogers [00:56:54] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Even though there's. I found out later there was more to the story. It wasn't just me that got him out, but it was. It was. You know, it was kind of a little eye opening. And so I. Like, all through high school, I'm a good kid. I'm not touching any alcohol because I have a fear of dying. So, like, I will drink and I will die on the way home. Even though I could walk home from anywhere in my small town, it was. I never thought about that until, like, two days ago. I was like, oh, shit. I could just walk to him.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:57:29] Why didn't I.

Darian Rogers [00:57:30] Why didn't I try that? Right, Right. And so, you know, a lot of chastity was more of my jam as far as, like, for my high school sinning because I wouldn't die. So, like, I know if I. If I touch a boob, I won't die on my way home, but.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:47] Yeah, but.

Darian Rogers [00:57:48] Yeah, so. So high school for me was one foot in, one foot out. Then is. Is when I was in high school, like, my senior year at a girl I dated, I had sex with. And so now I've committed this index to murder.

John Dehlin [00:58:01] Did you. Were you taught that? Oh, yeah. And did you believe that?

Darian Rogers [00:58:05] Oh, I totally did.

John Dehlin [00:58:05] When you.

Darian Rogers [00:58:06] Because I'd gone to so many, like, efy things and whatnot, and. And so, like, kind of in the. In the sexual purity, like, when they talked about petting, I was like, what the. What. What the hell's that? You know?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:58:16] And they're like, that's the weirdest word. Can we just say it's the weirdest,

John Dehlin [00:58:20] 40s, 50s kind of word?

Darian Rogers [00:58:22] It's so weird. And then they're, like, explaining, there's light petting. It's heaven pet. I'm like, really? There's.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:58:29] What's this heavy petting you're talking about?

Darian Rogers [00:58:31] Heavy petting sounds more interesting than the light. Right? But anyway, so, you know that messaging was there. And so, like, I was like, I thought I. Once again, I just blew the celestial kingdom for a piece of biscuit pizza.

Margi Dehlin [00:58:51] Yeah.

Darian Rogers [00:58:52] Sorry to call my girlfriend a biscuit. She was more than.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:58:56] She wasn't. She was the best pizza you had so far.

Darian Rogers [00:58:59] So I went through, like, a massive kind of repentance process. Like, somehow I got my hands on the miracle forgiveness, which was horrible. But for some reason, it worked for me. At the time. And then it was like, all right, I gotta figure out if this Book of Mormon stuff is true or if it's not true. Like, I'm at a big decision point. I'm either. Either I gotta get back on track or I'm. I'm done.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:20] Yeah.

Darian Rogers [00:59:21] And so. So, yeah, I went through that whole process and then my branch president told my parents about it.

John Dehlin [00:59:29] So you confessed?

Darian Rogers [00:59:30] Oh, yeah, I went to that. Oh, yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:59:31] And then the brand.

John Dehlin [00:59:32] And how was he when you confessed?

Darian Rogers [00:59:34] How old was he?

John Dehlin [00:59:34] How was he? Oh, how was he when you confessed?

Darian Rogers [00:59:37] You know, he was actually really great. So that was not my first time talking to him. That was a we joke.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:59:45] See his eyes go up. That was not my first time.

Darian Rogers [00:59:48] I was more of a bundler when

John Dehlin [00:59:49] it came to things.

Darian Rogers [00:59:51] Like we always have those, like, confessions times.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [00:59:53] And I'm like, he was a bundle.

Darian Rogers [00:59:55] You know, I'm like, hey, I didn't expect we were gonna have confession day today. And I got a lot of stuff,

Margi Dehlin [00:59:59] but as it turns out, I don't

John Dehlin [01:00:01] think I'm done yet.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:00:02] He's like, I might have a party this Friday, so I'm going to wait till the next go to the future.

Getting Into BYU and Faith at That Time

Margi Dehlin [01:00:07] Just make this really efficient.

Darian Rogers [01:00:09] Yeah, no, we joked. My brother and I joked were like, that wasn't enough. Like, we get to stack three or four things and before you have to go, now it's worthwhile. But going back, he was. He was actually really good in, in, in, in. In. Helpful. And it was, for him. It was like, I probably. He was kind of like, not a big deal. And. And he was actually really. So I was like, awesome. And then I got home and my dad was like, hey, so I talked to the branch president today.

John Dehlin [01:00:39] So he broke your confidence?

Darian Rogers [01:00:40] Yeah. And I didn't realize branch presidents don't have half confidence. Only bishops do, you know? Oh, no.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:00:45] Oh, is that true?

Darian Rogers [01:00:46] No, I'm joking.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:47] Oh, I'm joking.

Darian Rogers [01:00:48] I'm like. But I was. I was totally joking. I was like. I was like. I was surprised.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:53] Yeah, right.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:00:53] Because I was like, you thought it was confidential.

Darian Rogers [01:00:55] Like, what are you talking about?

John Dehlin [01:00:56] He didn't have to come down on you because your dad would.

Darian Rogers [01:00:59] Yeah, right.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:01:00] That's kind of.

John Dehlin [01:01:00] Again, it's the self enforcing is better.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:01:03] That is actually.

John Dehlin [01:01:04] So.

Darian Rogers [01:01:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:05] How was you doing? You felt betrayed by this?

Darian Rogers [01:01:06] I totally felt betrayed.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:08] Yeah.

Darian Rogers [01:01:08] And it was. And, And. And my dad and I, you know, we worked through it. In reality, it's the person I should have been talking to about all that stuff. Right. It wasn't some guy I don't know from Adam. And so. But yeah, so I had a decision to make. And as I went through that process, I was like, okay, I'm gonna give this. I'm gonna give this BYU thing a shot.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:01:32] And so you also saw it as your. As your way out too.

Darian Rogers [01:01:36] I did.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:01:37] Because just a small town. He's the first one to graduate college in his family ever. Like, so talk about before then. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:48] I just want to say, I want to note how well the program, the. The Mormon formula works, because if you're like Jen and you do everything you told, you're end up doing what the church wants.

Darian Rogers [01:02:00] Right.

John Dehlin [01:02:01] If you mess up, then you get put through the shame parade.

Darian Rogers [01:02:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:05] And you end up doing everything the church wants.

Darian Rogers [01:02:07] You're right.

John Dehlin [01:02:07] So either way, the church gets what they want, which is somebody giving their life to the church.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:02:13] I did make mistakes, and we'll get into that.

John Dehlin [01:02:15] But.

Darian Rogers [01:02:15] But, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:16] Yeah, but you're right.

Darian Rogers [01:02:17] The shame, the shame.

John Dehlin [01:02:18] They win either way. Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:02:20] Is.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:21] Is a way to control you, and it's.

John Dehlin [01:02:23] It got you on board.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:02:25] Most horrific.

John Dehlin [01:02:27] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:28] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:02:28] It got drama. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:30] It got you on board.

Darian Rogers [01:02:30] Yeah. And she's right. I. I wanted out of Iowa, so I just wanted out of the state. It was. It was really, for me, it was like University of Iowa, byu. Both. Both are great schools.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:02:40] And BYU is cheaper because you had the money, the money issue.

Darian Rogers [01:02:43] So money was. Money was a challenge. Here's a funny. Another funny story about your mother. No. So I was. I took school really serious in high school. Like in. Once again, it is rural Iowa. Not always the highest academic schools, but I was rocking that school. Right as much. The hardest class dominated. I dominated. Granted, there's no honors, there's no AP in our school, but I'm dominating. And what was your class size? 100. Okay, 100, I think. 100. 150. So that's good. Not too bad some people. But where was I going with that?

John Dehlin [01:03:25] You dominated.

Darian Rogers [01:03:26] Oh, so I'm dominating. Right.

Margi Dehlin [01:03:28] And.

Darian Rogers [01:03:28] And no one from my family had gone to college. My mom attended like two years. So there wasn't like, you know, my mind, I'm. I'm going and I'm just. And once again, it's. It's hands off in our family. So it's like, you want to do something, you go figure it out. So, like, you know, I'm getting ready for school. I want good grades. And one day I show up, my friends are like, hey, did you sign up for the act? I'm like, what are you talking about?

Margi Dehlin [01:03:50] Yeah.

Darian Rogers [01:03:50] Like, I had no clue what it was. And they're like, you got to take that to get into college. And I'm like, where did I miss that mess? And so the next thing you know, I'm signing up for the act. I didn't know you could study for it. I didn't know you could take it more than once. So I show up, I take it one time, I get a grade.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:04:06] It's good enough, and it's good enough

Darian Rogers [01:04:07] to get into BYU.

John Dehlin [01:04:08] It's impressive.

Darian Rogers [01:04:09] I have, like a 4. 0. My ACT score.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:04:11] This is in the 80s.

Darian Rogers [01:04:12] My ACT score is not that high. I could not get into byu. Now.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:04:15] No way.

Darian Rogers [01:04:16] But the funny story is, I get to byu. And at the time, they give you, like, your recommended classes for your major, right? And it was pre Internet. No. Like, you gotta sign up. And, you know, you gotta figure

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:04:32] that

Darian Rogers [01:04:34] in one of my classes, I couldn't find in this. In the book, right? Like, and it was like, my freshman English class. It's got to be. It's got to be in there somewhere. And so I went and talked to a lady at, like, the counseling place, and I was like, hey, they recommend I take this class. And she was like, oh, honey. I was like, it says freshman English esl. I was like, what does that mean? She's like, that's English as a Second Language. What country are you from? I was like, hello. And she was like, what'd you get on your act? I was like, in English, a 13. And she was like, well, you probably should take esl. I'm not taking it. I got too much pride.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:22] You actually qualify.

Darian Rogers [01:05:24] You think that's what I might want to consider? That's the guy you're talking to? I think not. Although, take the regular class, please. And then when I got an A in it, I went back to her to show that I got an A. And she was like, who are you? Why is this means a lot?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:05:37] But he also flirted with the ta. Let's just say that he knew how to get that good grade.

Darian Rogers [01:05:42] Guy's got to do it, guys. I was friends with her really quickly.

John Dehlin [01:05:47] What was your faith like by the time you reached BYU in terms of God, Jesus, the Bible, Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith?

Margi Dehlin [01:05:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:55] How would you describe it?

Darian Rogers [01:05:57] Between my, like, middle of my senior year and kind of getting to byu, I'm in.

John Dehlin [01:06:02] Like, how'd that happen? How'd that happen?

Darian Rogers [01:06:04] Just through my whole repentance process, so. That whole repentance process to me was just like, you know, it's kind of rabbit hole of like, I'm gonna read everything. Like, I'm gonna read the Book of Mormon, I'm gonna read Marvel, Smoke and Wonder. I'm gonna read Jesus the Christ. I'm gonna read anything I can absorb. Now I'm engaged. I'm in. And so I go to byu and I am like, I am getting to the promised land.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:06:24] He was like, they're like, you like, all in guy.

Darian Rogers [01:06:28] There are other Mormons here and they're normal.

John Dehlin [01:06:34] Did you get like the witness from Heavenly Father kind of thing?

Darian Rogers [01:06:37] Yeah, yeah, yeah. To me it was like, yeah, I, I prayed and prayed and prayed and prayed and finally my testimony was pretty much, of course it's true. Yeah, Everyone, you know, believes it.

John Dehlin [01:06:50] Yeah.

Darian Rogers [01:06:50] You know, they're smarter people than, than you.

John Dehlin [01:06:52] Yeah.

Darian Rogers [01:06:53] So, yeah, I did get it. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:06:55] Okay.

Darian Rogers [01:06:56] But no, I will say kind of

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:06:57] got it in a sense of like, you already know it's true.

Darian Rogers [01:07:00] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:07:01] Not really like a voice telling, like, not really all that. Yeah, that transformational. It's kind of like, huh.

Darian Rogers [01:07:08] Yeah, it was kind of more like. It was more like acceptance in some ways.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:07:12] Yeah.

Darian Rogers [01:07:12] It was like, I fought it. I fought it. Oh, yeah, it's true. But in that process, there were two things that bothered me socially about the church that I kind of took up. Once again, I'm in this like six month process where I'm like going to go to Iowa or going to go to byu. I'm trying to figure it out. And I remember talking to my dad. I'm like, all right, dad, polygamy, don't get it. And why did we practice it? And he had a decent enough answer for me to go, all right, I'll put that on the shelf for now. And then similar, like Jennifer's talking about, like, I was like, blacks in the priesthood don't get it. Why, why would we do such a thing? And he had kind of a canned answer and I was like, all right, good enough. I'll put it up there. But, but those were, you know, then I went to BYU and I'm, I'm all in. Like, I love the religion.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:08:04] Cute girls everywhere with bows in their hair. Darren loved girls with bows. Do you remember the.

Darian Rogers [01:08:10] I feel shame for that in my time.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:12] That was elementary education.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:08:14] Yeah, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:15] Girls.

Darian Rogers [01:08:15] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:17] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:18] Yeah, yeah, both.

Darian Rogers [01:08:19] That's kind of paint the picture.

John Dehlin [01:08:21] Okay. Yeah. So I know you both serve missions and there's a lot we could talk about between you both arriving at BYU and your Eventual marriage and the loss of faith. But because we want to focus on parenting after. Yes. Like, let's just say we'll start with you, Jen. Between arriving at BYU and marrying Darren, is there anything like really crucial to your story since we won't have time to really arriving at go year to year? I mean, you played basketball at byu. Yeah, I guess that didn't last.

Missions, Marriage, and Early Married Life

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:08:54] No, I went on a mission the year at like I decided to go on a mission. I didn't, I didn't love my experience. I didn't get. Get along great with the coach. I don't know that she would even know that now.

John Dehlin [01:09:05] But played one year?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:09:06] Yeah, I played one year.

John Dehlin [01:09:07] Were you redshirted? Redshirt freshmen?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:09:09] No, I didn't. So. So I actually, when I went to byu, I never asked to get recruited. Like, BYU wouldn't look at me. I had all these other schools looking at me. But back then you didn't recruit in the Southeast. Back then I was actually shamed at BYU from being from Tennessee. Like it was the California, Arizona, Utah people. Anyone outside of there. Good luck.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:32] Good luck.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:09:33] Yeah. Good luck finding good luck. Good luck making your way in. That was my experience because. Or Texas may have had a bent, but we like.

John Dehlin [01:09:43] Are you saying you didn't play or what?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:09:45] Oh, no. Freshman year. So I did not, I did not play basketball. They did not recruit me. So I just went to BYU with my head hang down, crying and devastated. Just kind of gave up all hope to even play playing in college.

Darian Rogers [01:09:59] You walked onto the diving team?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:10:00] I walked onto the diving team my freshman year because I was a lifeguard and dove all my life and was a diving coach and I just took a diving class and the diving coach asked me if I wanted to join the team and I was like, sure. So I did that my freshman year and then didn't ever compete. Like I was going to like red shirts. But then it just, it was too much. It was like swimming in the morning and then workouts in the afternoon and then swim. It was like the hair. I mean when you have curly hair, that's.

John Dehlin [01:10:31] But didn't you see a plaque? A basketball plaque?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:10:33] Yeah. So then second year I was after I was miserable and Darren and I met our freshman year. We were best friends. Healman House, DT Desert Towers, U Hall.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:44] Wow.

Darian Rogers [01:10:45] U Hauleman Stall.

John Dehlin [01:10:47] What The Helaman was the one true dorm.

Darian Rogers [01:10:52] It was down on the bottom of the hill.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:10:59] And all my people were at Helaman because the athletes were there. And so like I felt, yes, I felt like, very out of sorts at dt. But anyway, so I did that freshman year, and then he. We ended up dating two weeks before school was out because I refused to date him because I know if we did, he would want to. Like, it would be boyfriend, girlfriend. And I was like, no, I've done that all through high school. I need. I wanted to kiss a lot of boys and experience what it felt like to actually go on dates with lots of different people. And so, yeah, so we started dating two weeks before school was out. We kept it a secret because everyone accused us of that. We were in love the whole time. And I was like, him. Nah, he's my best friend. Shut up. You know that whole ruse of sorts. Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:11:45] It's like When Harry Met Sally.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:11:46] It was very. That's his favorite movie. Yeah. But are we friends?

Margi Dehlin [01:11:50] But are we?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:11:51] Totally.

Margi Dehlin [01:11:52] Exactly.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:11:53] Yeah.

Darian Rogers [01:11:53] I was always trying to become more than friends and was getting the stiff arm over and over.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:11:58] Yeah. To the point where I broke his heart and then he broke mine. So anyway, he got back at me. But, yeah, so. So when he left on his mission and I. I've touched on this a little bit. I would never felt safe around other women, ever. I just felt judged. I felt like I might say something wrong. I felt like I'm too much. I'm too intense. I'm too. Like. I always felt like in order to hang out with other women, I needed to be small or get small. And I think that's from my upbringing in my home with my older sisters, so that. That just kind of. I've never felt safe around women. So my people and with ATH sports. So my people were always guys. Like, I was always on the basketball court playing with guys. Like, most of my freshman friends were guys. And I found my friends later, but that didn't happen until later. And so after he left, I had nobody. Like, all my best guy friends went on missions.

John Dehlin [01:13:04] He went on his mission after his

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:13:05] friends, but so did all my friends.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:07] Right.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:13:09] All of my friends go. So it was hard enough to even find them and make them. And then I go into my sophomore year, and I don't have any girlfriends. Like, I. They're like acquaintances, but nobody deep. And my best girlfriend ended up going to BYU Hawaii to play softball. Kathy Kidder. So she left me, and I just had. I was back to, like, nobody. So I was in a massive depression, and I was like, you know what? Basketball's always been my thing. I'm just gonna train all summer, and I'm gonna walk on. I'm gonna walk onto this team. God damn it. Yeah. I was like, I'm gonna do this. And I did. So I walked onto the team my sophomore year and I traveled and I got to play. It was a awesome experience, but also a hellish experience, you know, like a mission. Very similar, but yeah. So then after that I was like, that's not for me. I didn't, I didn't get along with a coach very well. I didn't feel because I was in dt, they're all in Helaman. It's so different when you're a walk on, like, it's so different. Yeah.

Darian Rogers [01:14:14] Mention your, like your mission. You had a couple cracks on your mission. I'm kind of pushing you forward.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:14:18] Oh, yeah. So I'll get to my mission. So anyway, ended up going to BYU Hawaii. My cracks on my mission.

John Dehlin [01:14:26] You went to BYU Hawaii?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:14:27] No, sorry. I went on my mission to Hawaii, but as a, as a missionary, I taught on campus.

John Dehlin [01:14:33] Okay, wait, you had predicted you would serve a mission in Hawaii?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:14:37] Not predicted, just. You wrote in the envelope, like, I just hope so.

John Dehlin [01:14:41] How in the world, given the mission calls are from God to the prophet, how did you know as a 12 year old girl that of all the places you could get called 200, 300 missions around the world, you picked the mission as a 12 year old, that you were going to be randomly sent?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:14:57] Yeah. And you want to, you want to hear the crazy part? It gets even crazier. It gets even crazier. While he was on his mission, I was dating a guy that was not good for me at all. Not a good fit. And he was very much pressuring me to get married. Kathy Kidder was at BYU Hawaii. My parents could sense that I was not okay. And I was like, I need to get away. I need to clear my head. And I was like, Kathy said to come see her. And they were like, bought my ticket instantly and were like, go to Hawaii. So I went to Hawaii for two weeks. While I'm in Hawaii, guess why I'm there to decide if I like how to get rid of this relationship. But also, do you go on a mission? Do you go on a mission? Is this, is this what you do? I am fasting and praying the entire time I'm there. I am waking up in the mornings, I am walking on the beach. I am so intentional. I am spending a lot of time by myself because Kathy was in school and it was perfect because I could just be alone all day and pray and fast and meditate and just. I was like begging and pleading for. Like, I was at the low, low, you know, depressed, low, low, low. That basketball didn't go well. I'm in this horrible relationship with this guy who's pressuring me to get married. My person is on a mission. I'm like, he's my person. And I am like, I have nobody and I have a dream. And in that dream I see myself. And I was praying because I wanted to know what it felt like to feel real joy I'd forgotten. And what it felt like to feel myself and to feel grounded and to feel unconditionally loved. Like, I was praying, like, remind me, God, what that feels like. I haven't felt it since he left. I need to. Like, I just. It wasn't like, is this person for me? It was not specific. It was just. Just remind me what that feels like. And I had a dream and I was. We were driving in a car and I felt. I felt it. I felt unconditionally loved. I felt that joy. I felt. Seen joy, like, just joy. And I was in a convertible and there was somebody driving me. And like I was in a sundress. Like it was kind of like this bit movie screeny thing. And we are driving and we pull up to my parents garage. And when Darren first met my parents, he came to visit me over the summer, freshman year. And he's the first guy I've ever dated that the first time he met my mom walked away in the door and was like, mom, nice to meet you. I'm Darren. Like, just called her mom. Like, I've heard so much about you. And the whole time I'm feeling this feeling and I remember it like it's tangible. Like you've ever had those dreams where you're like, wake up and you can still feel it on your skin. And it's like that joy. And the whole time I couldn't see this person's face. It was blocked. But when we walked in and I heard mom, I turned around instantly and I saw him. Now, I did not think I woke up. I did not think for one second that this was God telling me that he's my person. What it was, was, this is a person who loved you. Well, remember that. Remember how you felt when you were with him. Not he's the one. Let's be very clear.

Darian Rogers [01:18:37] And I view it as I was the one. I view it as I was the dancer to adultery.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:43] It's up to interpretations.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:18:45] So exactly. Darren's like, why you gotta say that? But I don't want to. And the Reason I say that is because how many guys have dreams that say, I woke up and you're the person I'm supposed to marry. And I was like, I'm never going to do that to somebody ever. It was just like this feeling.

John Dehlin [01:19:00] I see.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:19:00] I see was the key. Being reminded of this is what it feels like. And so I woke up and I wrote it down and I wrote him a letter and I was like, I don't like to him on his mission. And was like, I had this dream, and by no means does it mean you are my. We're to get married. Thank you for giving me that gift of feeling what it feels like to be unconditionally loved by somebody. I don't think I had ever felt it other than, like, my best friend Paula Linville, my best friend Kathy Burgess from middle school, who they're still in my life. They're gonna be here tomorrow. And him that unconditional. And my parents occasionally. But there was so much cultural overlay, overlay that it wasn't them. It was the cultural overlay that it just seeps through their messaging without them even recognizing it. They didn't mean to, but I did not feel unconditional love in my home growing up. It was not intentional.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:20:11] So is there anything essential about either of your missions that you want to make sure to mention as it plays in to your faith journey? Because we won't have time for everything.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:20:20] So I will say really quick. So the two breaks was Masonry. I was serving on the temple grounds. I was a visitor center sister.

John Dehlin [01:20:29] Okay. So you were called to serve as a temple missionary in Hawaii. In Hawaii, yeah. Okay, you're. Now you're going to say things that cause you to question your faith.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:20:40] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:20:40] As a missionary, yes. Okay. What were they? Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:20:42] So one was the Masonic Temple.

John Dehlin [01:20:44] Tell the story about how you.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:20:45] So I was one of the older couples that were on the mission. He was a Mason. And when I was on my mission, I was mission. I was delving in and reading everything, and my scriptures were highlighted. I was seeing Trinity in the Book of Mormon and I was like, trinity, like you can see it. And I'm like, question mark.

John Dehlin [01:21:08] God and Jesus are one.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:21:09] Yeah, question mark. Then I'm going, the Book of Mormon

John Dehlin [01:21:12] has a different theology than Mormonism today.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:21:14] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:21:14] Because in the Book of Mormon, God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are one.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:21:17] Right.

John Dehlin [01:21:17] But then later, Joseph Smith changes that. God and Jesus are separate beings. You were noticing that?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:21:22] I noticed it on my mission, and I was never taught that. It's in the Book of Mormon. Right. Because the scriptures you learn, they don't point out the Trinity. Yeah, no. And so I was like, question mark, Trinity, what is this? And then where does the temple come from? Like, actually. And so I went to this guy who was a Mason. Yeah, A Mason. And he was like, oh, yeah. And he was like, it's from Masonry. And that's where Joseph. And he was like, all open and honest.

John Dehlin [01:21:52] That sentence. That's where Joseph what?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:21:54] Got the temple ordinances. That's where it came from.

John Dehlin [01:21:58] Joseph Smith became a Mason and then sort of like imported the Masonic ceremony into the Mormon Temple ceremony.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:22:04] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:22:04] How'd you find out this guy was a Mason?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:22:06] He wore a Mason ring, which is a little.

John Dehlin [01:22:08] Had a G and a compass and a square.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:22:11] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:22:11] On the ring. Yeah. Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:22:13] Yes, yes. And I was like, those are the

John Dehlin [01:22:15] signs in your garments, right? The compass in the square.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:22:17] Yes, yes.

John Dehlin [01:22:18] It's on the ring.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:22:20] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:22:20] And it's also the sign, like in the sign right in the. In the Hawaii Temple. Oh, yeah. There was the. The.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:22:26] I mean, it's like every. It's just like. Yeah. So, I mean, how crazy is to have this guy. What's that ring is. Oh, what? And then him like telling me like, isn't it beautiful? And me going, is it like, wait, like it came from man? And he was like, did they. He might have said, or maybe I interpreted it wrong, that it's been around for thousands of years.

John Dehlin [01:22:50] It's not true.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:22:51] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:22:52] Masonry has not been around for thousands of years.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:22:54] So I was told. I think I was told that. Or maybe I made it up.

John Dehlin [01:22:56] That's what people say. It's like folklore.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:58] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:22:59] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:22:59] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:23:00] So I think he was like, oh, it's been around for thousands of years. And it was on the land when Christ was here. And it's just Joseph Smith brought it back. So I, like, I don't think I'm making that up. I think that's what I was told.

John Dehlin [01:23:11] For sure. He told you that for sure. It's not true.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:23:13] Right. But I was like, okay. But okay. You know, like that. Then I taught a part member family. She was African American or. And her mom was white. Her dad was black. She was mixed. And then she was marrying an African American man and they had a. And she had a little boy, and the man she was marrying was not a member and she wanted him to take the discussion. She was trying to get back to the church. So I'm teaching this family. And of course, what. What. What scripture comes up in Nephi? The Black skin, right?

John Dehlin [01:23:55] Oh, about. About how God cursed the Lamanites with dark skin so they would be loathsome and unappealing to the white Nephites.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:24:05] And I'm teaching this family, who I

John Dehlin [01:24:08] love, says God called us, caused a skin of blackness to come upon the Nephites. The Lamanites, as a curse.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:15] Yes.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:24:16] So we're doing the scriptures, and I'm encouraging.

John Dehlin [01:24:19] She's reading that scripture. She reads as a black person from

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:24:23] the Book of Mormon, her husband at the time, who I'm teaching the discussions to. And she's like, huh? What. What it. What do you have to say about this? And I was like, I'll tell you what I have to say. People say it means, like, black heart, like, in internal. Like, that's how they will justify that. But I'm with you. It says skin, and it says it right here. And if I. I have no words. I was like, I have no words.

John Dehlin [01:25:02] That's embarrassing.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:25:03] As a missionary, it was so embarrassing. And I don't know that I ever knew the skin. Like, I. It's like. Because you're told it's just dark. Dark soul. Because that's what they say about us. Like, when Veron and I were leaving, I'm sure people were like, oh, they're dark now. They've lost. You've lost the light. That light. That brightness. You seem so sad. I'm like, well, yeah, my whole world just fell apart. Of course I'm sad. Give me a minute. Give me a minute to gather myself and put myself together. But, yeah, so it was polygamy, blacks in the priesthood and the temple. And I hated the temple, by the way. Hated it. That was horrible. Horrendous.

John Dehlin [01:25:41] Now, would y' all have gone through before the mission penalties with the.

Darian Rogers [01:25:44] I did.

John Dehlin [01:25:45] With the slitting or throws.

Darian Rogers [01:25:46] You missed it. Yeah. For me, when I went. So one of the cracks was, I go to the temple before going to mission. First thing they say is, like, you're not really willing to live by these rules. Check out now. And I was like, wait, hang on. What are we talking about? You tell me I should check out. I'm like, I'm interested in checking out. Like, it already scared me. I should just go ahead and check.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:26:08] I was the same. I felt like, where's the door?

Margi Dehlin [01:26:10] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:26:11] And is anyone else taking it? Yeah. Yeah.

Darian Rogers [01:26:14] And then when. When. When you're going through, like, the. The covenants, whatever. And there was the penalty. So there's a slash in the throat and your stomach. And I remember doing it going I think I probably even mouth words. Like, I'd be like, what? That. Like, what am I doing? Like, no, I won't. No, I won't do this.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:26:34] This is.

Darian Rogers [01:26:34] This is a lie. Like, I'm like, I'm making a promise that I'm knocking. Like, if I ever actually say something, I'm not. Slash in my throat, to be clear, figuratively, ever again or, you know, whatever. I was like, just.

John Dehlin [01:26:46] Just so our viewers know, you would. You would take your thumb and you would say, suffer my life to be taken. And you would reenact slitting your throat in the temple.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:26:56] And then you would.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:26:57] And then the belly.

Darian Rogers [01:26:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:26:59] Then cutting out your heart.

Darian Rogers [01:27:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:27:00] Suffer life to be taken. And then disemboweling yourself. And you. You make those different.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:27:05] Say that. But we took the signs away, don't we?

John Dehlin [01:27:08] They took that away in 90.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:27:10] Yeah. So that. But did they still say things similar.

John Dehlin [01:27:13] They took out the penalties.

Darian Rogers [01:27:15] They took them out.

John Dehlin [01:27:16] And that's because the evangelical Christians created the movie in the book the God Makers, and they revealed how barbaric the temple ceremony was. So the church changed it.

Darian Rogers [01:27:26] Yeah. So it was. It was. It was a bit of a mind f. Going to the temple where you're like, this is the end. All. Be all. This is like, you know, you hear theories like, Jesus may walk through the temple someday. Like, all this kind of crazy stuff. And. And so you think it's going to be this amazing spiritual thing. And I'm like, wow, this is not. I don't like the uniforms either. That, you know, like, everything about it.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:27:48] I had to cover my face. That was. I was like, I am not okay with this. And I was saying. I was like, what's he. What is this? I was not okay. Men go over here. Women go over here. I'm like, where are we? Back in the dark ages. Like, what just happened? It is a complete. And. And then you're taught about ceremony and how evil the Catholic Church was for the pomp and circumstance. That is so ritual. It felt like secret, secret combinations. Like, you're told how bad that is, and then you go to the temple and you're like, wait, this is secret combinations?

Margi Dehlin [01:28:25] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:28:25] Like, that's. That's what this is. It's very confusing. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt.

Darian Rogers [01:28:30] And then, then two experiences on my mission. So I went to Tampa, Florida. I, too, had written a capsule about what I wanted to be when I grew up. And mine was have a trip to Disney World.

Margi Dehlin [01:28:41] Missionary.

Darian Rogers [01:28:43] I saw Orlando, Nanny, Nana, Boo Boo.

John Dehlin [01:28:46] But Was Orlando part of your mission at the time?

Darian Rogers [01:28:48] It was. It was Tampa, Florida. I was not excited to go because I wanted to.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:28:52] Oh, he was devastating.

Darian Rogers [01:28:53] I wanted to learn a language.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:28:54] I did, too.

Darian Rogers [01:28:54] Everyone's getting called to Germany and the walls coming down, all this cool stuff.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:28:58] And the wall was coming down, by the way. When we were at byu, everyone was going to Germany. Do you remember that? Everybody was like, well, sorry. Sorry, John.

Darian Rogers [01:29:09] And so two experiences. One, when we were tracking this, some guy was like, he answered the story. He's like, I'd love to talk to you. Why don't you meet me in my back garden? I was like, oh, okay. We're like, this is going to be great. We found the amazing.

Margi Dehlin [01:29:26] The garden.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:29:27] The. What could possibly go wrong?

Darian Rogers [01:29:30] What could possibly go wrong? And so we sit down at this picnic table and this guy comes out with his wife, and in his case, he's in a wheelchair. This is just the visual I remember is the front of his electric wheelchair has a table on it, and there are 20 books stacked. And it looks like a bulldozer is coming in with information. And he comes rolling in and he starts asking us questions. And he. He's everything. He's talking about, like kind of Bible bashing, but he's Bible bashing with the Book of Mormon, right? So he knows the Book of Mormon inside and out. So, like, what Jennifer's talking about, like, hey, you know Three Degrees of Glory. Show me where it's in here. I'm like, you can't find it? You know, he's like, hey, it sounds like there was Joseph Smith. This sounds like trilogy to me. Show me how it's not trilogy. Using your Trinity. Yeah, using your Book of Mormon. Like, I got nothing right. And he was beating me over the head with all this stuff that I didn't know. Once again, now I'm gonna go home and go rabbit hole. You know, I'm just gonna. I'm gonna learn every answer for. For everything that I could find. But it was a little bit like, huh, seems odd, you know, some information. And then two was a lady answers the door and she's like. It was during the timeframe where the church was doing commercials on tv. And then if you wanted a Book of Mormon, you could sign up for one. What you didn't know is the guy who's gonna deliver it to you is me. So I show up at your door with the book you wanted.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:04] That's right.

Darian Rogers [01:31:05] Surprise, surprise, it's free. But in this case, she's like a puppy.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:11] Yes.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:31:11] A free puppy.

Darian Rogers [01:31:13] This lady, she answers the door and she's like, I just saw the commercial. I would love to learn about your Book of Mormon. Can we.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:20] Can.

Darian Rogers [01:31:20] We're like, oh, my gosh. We go in, we teach her, like, two or three discussions and commit her to, like, read the Book of Mormon. And we go back two days later, and she's read the whole thing, right? And so we're like, all right. She's like, did you read? She's like, because nobody ever reads it. Half time. People don't read it. But she's like, yeah, I finished the whole thing. I was like, wow. So did you pray about it? She's like, yeah. Like, what'd you get? She's like, God said, no, this isn't true. And I remember going, huh?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:31:53] Does that happen?

Darian Rogers [01:31:54] That does not happen. I've never seen this happen before.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:31:57] You need to go back. Go back and read it again.

Darian Rogers [01:32:00] And it was like, let's try again. You know, like, you're kind of taught as a missionary. Like, in those moments, stay with that person and have them pray with you. And it's kind of like this coerced, like, used car sales kind of impact. I'm like, I'm not going there. I'm not that kind of guy. But I was like. I remember leaving, just going, this is not go as God's plan. It's like, you know, everything was supposed to line up. And so that was kind of another. Like, that's weird. But I would say those were between

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:32:30] pretty typical blacks in the priesthood, polygamy, the temple, got married.

Darian Rogers [01:32:35] Those are the kind of the things. So all those other things on my shelf kind of floating around a little bit. But yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:42] Yeah.

Coming Home From Missions and Getting Engaged

John Dehlin [01:32:43] So y' all both come home from your missions. How soon were you engaged once the last of you came home off your mission?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:32:51] So I came home this interesting. I left six weeks before he got home from his. I left for mine. And he was not happy about me

John Dehlin [01:33:02] going 17 months, basically.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:33:04] So we did not see each other for three and a half years? Pretty much, yeah. Yeah. So it was really hard. And he was. Is. And still my best friend. So, like, beyond dating, I was like, he's my best friend. And so. But yeah, so we didn't see each other for three and a half years. We wrote. He sent me, like, cute little VCR tapes while he was on his mission. He did break the rules. And every Mother's Day and Christmas, we called each other and stayed on the phone, like, when he was on his. And when I was on Mine. And we stayed on the phone way past. I mean, I mean into the morning probably six hours as many calls, six hours on the phone just catching up on everything. Like tell me about your life. How are you? How are really? Like how are you though? Because he would call me. He called me once from his mission when I was at the worst point of my life. The worst. And this is where I'm like, I just. Yeah, there's some God winks or I don't hire power however you want, like karma, I don't know. But lowest point where I'm like if I just need to talk to Darren, he could get me through this. And he called me out of the blue that. The next day, that morning and like I bawled and you just said you were on my mind and I've been worried about you. I hadn't. He hadn't heard from me. I hadn't written him in a while. And he was just like, you're not okay. And I'm like no, I am not okay.

Darian Rogers [01:34:33] I did have a strategy. I did. I did stay connected to her grandmother like who I loved. And I always. I'd write her grandmother as well as Jennifer. And so I was kind of like getting that information.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:34:44] She loved him.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:45] Him.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:34:46] So she.

Darian Rogers [01:34:46] And all of a sudden your letters dropped off. But I'm still hanging out with the grandma.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:34:50] Yeah.

Darian Rogers [01:34:50] Via letters. And I'm like something seems off here, let me.

John Dehlin [01:34:53] Resourceful.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:34:54] Yes, he was very resourceful. Alexand's named after. But anyway so we. It was. I got home in December. He insisted on pick me, picking me up from the airport. We. I flew home. Bob Garf set me apart. My parents grew up with the Garves who I absolutely love and adore. And so we flew. Flew to Utah. Cuz I wanted to go straight to byu right. So I left to be able to go. So I didn't even go home to Tennessee. So I went home straight from my mission right into. Right into freshman or college. So he picked me up over Christmas break and I was like we are not dating. I am not kissing you. Stay away. Don't do like. Like I. I have people to date. I've got to find myself. And then like that night I was like, like yeah, it was over.

John Dehlin [01:35:42] You can't resist how soon you're engaged after you're coming home.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:35:45] August we got engaged like probably got married in August. Probably like like a really short engagement. You got home probably in December. It's probably like three months May or June.

John Dehlin [01:35:57] Got engaged way too short and married

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:35:59] and then married by.

John Dehlin [01:36:00] So eight months between you coming home and. Yeah, okay. Just for the sake of time, what was your. Both your expectations for how your Mormon life was going to be? So there's always either explicit or implied when you get married in the Mormon Temple of what you're both agreeing to in terms of your mutual commitment to the church, both for yourselves and for any children you might have. Darren, I'll ask you first, what do you think the understanding was in terms of what role the church would play in your future lives as a couple and with kids?

Darian Rogers [01:36:39] What role would they play?

John Dehlin [01:36:40] Like, what role would the church play?

Darian Rogers [01:36:41] Everything. Like, they're, they're. It's so entrenched. Right. Like it, it's, it's following the plan. Right. So I'm back home from a mission. If I don't get married within like, you know, a certain period of time, I'm going to become some kind of wacko, loser, natural man, like, enemy to God kind of thing. And so it's like, I'm gonna get married and then, you know, I'm. This is where I'm gonna push back a little bit. So, like, I'm, I'm gonna follow the plan. I'm gonna follow it on my time frame. So, like, you know, the thought of, like, I grew up poor. The thought of like starting having kids as soon as we get married was not something that was.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:37:21] And not mine.

John Dehlin [01:37:22] That's fine.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:37:22] Yeah.

Darian Rogers [01:37:23] And so for us, it was going to be like, hey, we're gonna get married, we're gonna have. We're gonna chase careers a little bit. Eventually, in my mind, I'm going to stay on with the career. You're going to drop off because we're going to have kids to take care of, which.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:37:34] You didn't clue me in on the drop off part.

Darian Rogers [01:37:36] I didn't. Not so good.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:37:38] You know, kept that one to himself.

Darian Rogers [01:37:40] But it's going to be like, you know, and then church is everything. It's every Sunday and it's temple and it's home teaching. It's all that. So I guess, is that kind of

John Dehlin [01:37:50] answering your question, committed to the church for life?

Margi Dehlin [01:37:52] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:37:53] Except we did talk about, about polygamy even before, and I was like, by the way, we, we ain't doing that in this life or the next. Absolutely not. And if you are into that, bye. Bye.

Darian Rogers [01:38:05] And I'm like, I can barely handle one. I don't need another.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:38:08] Had that conversation, like, not in this life or the next or whatever you. If we get. If I die and you want to remarry. You divorce me. Like, we're not doing this. I am not dealing with that. So very clear on that. And then also very, very clear because we both had so much sexual shaming and trauma that even in byu, when we, when that's another thing that brought us together, it was like Wounded bird. Wounded bird found wounded bird because he felt like an outsider coming from Iowa. I felt like an outsider coming from Tennessee. I felt like I wasn't worthy enough because I was a fringy Mormon. Like, the tank tops and the holy jeans and.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:52] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:38:53] And. Yeah. And so we connected in that. And also I, I also bundled my law of chastity. That happened to me as well in very similar circumstances as Darren. And so I had mass. I, I, Why? Anyway, I have massive trauma from that major. And so I didn't think that he'd even want to marry me. I was like, you're not going to want me.

John Dehlin [01:39:19] Okay, so you're. I don't know if you want me to be this explicit, but you're saying you had premarital sex.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:39:24] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:39:24] As he had.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:39:25] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:39:26] But you were worried.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:39:27] Did you know that he had a boyfriend?

Margi Dehlin [01:39:28] Did you know that? Did you know the extent?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:39:30] No. So. And I wouldn't even. I wouldn't call it sex, you know. You know how that goes. I would not call that sex to what I know sex to be now.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:39] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:39:39] It wasn't consensual.

Darian Rogers [01:39:41] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:42] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:39:42] Not that. Yeah, that was, that was not. It wasn't great. But that's okay. But they're so. It was even, just even, like, petting, like, that was enough to make me go, I'm unworthy. So I did not take the sacrament from, like, in seventh grade, I was, I was kind of pinned down after basketball practice by a guy and groped and sorry. I couldn't tell my parents or anybody because I thought, yeah, I'd done something wrong. So I didn't take the sacrament from seventh grade until BYU when I finally, before my mission, went to tell my bishop.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:43] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:40:43] Yeah. Because I wasn't gonna tell anybody. I, I was too good of friends with my bishops and Todd Christofferson and like, I, But I, I never felt judged. Like, I always felt unconditionally loved by, by the.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:00] But you held that inside for all those years and then just didn't take the.

John Dehlin [01:41:08] Had you been taught the. Licked cupcake, Chewed gum.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:41:11] Oh, totally.

John Dehlin [01:41:12] So did you relate to the tell if you related to that?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:41:16] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:41:16] Chewed gum and tell them. Tell them what that is?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:41:21] Well, like, the brownies. You pass a plate of brownies around and. And you're.

John Dehlin [01:41:28] You're.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:30] Or you can say you don't have to go through.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:41:33] Yeah. But, like, they put their hands on it and throw dirt in it.

John Dehlin [01:41:38] This is a church. Young women are around and a leader

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:41:41] teaching what that nobody wants. Chewed a dirty brownie. Like, nobody's gonna want that.

John Dehlin [01:41:48] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:41:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:41:50] Do you feel like you internalized that?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:41:51] Oh, I know I did. Yeah. Like, I have massive trauma. I'm realizing now.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:57] Right.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:41:58] I didn't know I had trauma. So highly encourage people to go through therapy because you have trauma from this that you don't even know you have. And I think it's so crucial for progress. Right. I mean, it's been a massive piece of keeping our marriage together and. And owning the trauma that I passed on to my kids. And, like, that accountability piece, which I don't think Mormonism does well because they don't. They don't. What do you call it? Model it. Yeah. The church does not model that acknowledgment or accountability. And so it's. I think it's part of that. The culture of zero accountability. That's. That narcissism piece. Joe Smith had zero accountability. Joseph. Does that make sense? And, like, how do you get away from that when that's the guy who started that religion?

Margi Dehlin [01:42:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:42:51] Do you want to share what you're feeling, Dar?

Margi Dehlin [01:42:54] No.

Darian Rogers [01:42:55] Yeah. I say no. Yes. It just makes me really sad to, like, see her in, like, in pain, in. In so many ways, unnecessary pain. Right. And. And. And it was similar because he had it, too. Because when we talked about it, you're like, I get it. You felt the same shit I did, you know, and you feel like. You know, you felt worthless, and you felt like, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:26] Wow.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:43:26] Like, honestly, we were driving from Arizona after seeing his brother Doug, and Darren was like, I'm. I'm in love with you. I want to marry you. And I was like, no, you don't. I was like, you don't. You don't want to marry me. I'm not who you think I am.

Darian Rogers [01:43:44] Yeah. Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:43:44] And he was like, tell me. He's like, actually, I think I might know who you are. And he was like, I might have something. A similar story.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:53] Right. Wow.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:43:55] Yeah. And so we basically said it without saying it.

Darian Rogers [01:43:59] Yeah, I guess so.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:44:00] But.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:01] Wow.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:44:02] Yeah. I, like, so grateful I found him, because I don't know.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:09] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:44:09] I wouldn't have told another female because I felt women were so judgmental. Like, I didn't sense Safety at all. Anywhere.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:20] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:44:21] To share.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:23] And I've heard of Mormon marriages where like the husband hadn't had sex, but the wife had and the husband held that over her. They maybe they got married, but he always felt resentful.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:44:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:34] That. That she wasn't worthy and that she had soiled herself and that he had to marry damaged goods kind of thing that became.

Darian Rogers [01:44:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:42] Became a power dynamic in their marriage. I'm so glad you guys arrived in our wounded birds.

Darian Rogers [01:44:48] It was, you know, as. I mean, just myself. There was this huge concern of like, is this something I got to like, tell somebody? Like there's a little bit like in normal.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:44:59] None of anyone's business.

Darian Rogers [01:45:00] No, you did none of the business. But in the Mormon culture, it's like, hey, I'm just letting you know I'm a chewed pack of gum if you're interested.

John Dehlin [01:45:08] Right.

Darian Rogers [01:45:09] Still blow bubbles with it.

Margi Dehlin [01:45:12] I have some flavor.

Darian Rogers [01:45:13] I got flavor left.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:45:14] It's not bubble gum.

John Dehlin [01:45:15] Got a little gritty.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:45:16] It's like trying to blow bubbles with the experiment. Yeah. It's such a mind, a self hatred haven. Just a self hate haven.

Processing Trauma and Building the Marriage

Margi Dehlin [01:45:29] And let's just also address that you suffered an assault and that extra layer of. Of conditioning that told us that we're responsible for what another person feels. Right. We did.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:45:46] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:45:47] That.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:45:47] Why were you there?

Margi Dehlin [01:45:48] You getting support for something that was horrific that you experienced. Instead you internalize all this shame and you punish yourself and keep yourself from taking a sacrament for years.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:46:01] Years.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:02] Years.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:46:02] Self like inflicted kind of like that. What do you call it? The. From the.

John Dehlin [01:46:08] From money python.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:09] The whole.

John Dehlin [01:46:12] Exactly.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:46:16] Yeah. Like that's what I think of. Yeah. I'm still alive.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:21] Yeah. Also, can we just celebrate like in a. In a culture that is so armored around perfectionism as. As Mormonism is and kind of shame around virtue and. Right. If you have a sense of like that you guys, you had a moment where you actually met each other for real. So you like penetrated through that armor in a very real way. Like that is worse.

John Dehlin [01:46:50] Could have bonded you.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:51] Yes, it sounds like it did.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:46:52] Well, we had bonded even before that. In a sense of misfits, he's always felt like an outsider and so have I. I tell people I am most comfortable on the island of misfits. That is my safe space. That is why I feel the happiest because we are all here and we are like, misfits are like. It's what I am. I've been told I'm not acceptable by everybody and I've tried to be different and guess what? I can't. So it's kind of like, hey, misfit, are you really to be. Are you ready to be real? Cause I am. I'm tired. Yeah, you want to be real? Let's be real. So it just feels like I say that in like a honoring way of. That's my big tent.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:40] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:47:41] Come as you are.

John Dehlin [01:47:42] It's so weird that you were such a high achiever and yet the Mormon doctrine, theology, and culture left you feeling like garbage.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:47:50] Garbage.

John Dehlin [01:47:51] Like a misfit.

Darian Rogers [01:47:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:47:52] And that's. And that's also how they get you again.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:56] Right.

John Dehlin [01:47:56] I'm going to guess that you get married in the temple and you're super committed Mormons, at least at first.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:48:01] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:48:03] So I'm just going to guess that, like with you, your. Your sins right before you finished high school, turned you to the church and bonded you in high levels of commitment.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:15] Totally.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:48:15] Both of you, most likely. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:48:18] Both of you now realizing you had committed the sinister murder and then choosing to get married in the temple, repenting. I bet you were going to be super Mormons at that point.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:48:29] We were. And I will put out. No, no, we were committed to being. We are, but we're both edgy. I'm just saying we like to.

Darian Rogers [01:48:36] We're.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:48:37] We're both a little bit rebels.

John Dehlin [01:48:38] But you did the temple marriage thing.

Darian Rogers [01:48:40] We did.

John Dehlin [01:48:40] Which templates?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:48:41] Which templates? Salt Lake.

John Dehlin [01:48:44] Salt Lake Temple.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:48:44] Yeah. And I will say, too, that, like, what we were talking about, Temple marriage.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:50] Oh, shoot. I had a thought.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:48:52] I can't remember. Anyway, move on.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:53] It'll.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:48:54] It might come back.

John Dehlin [01:48:54] So you're both. You're both married. You were married in the Salt Lake Temple.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:48:57] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:48:58] Okay. And you were going to be. You're in it to win it.

Darian Rogers [01:49:00] We're in it. We're in it.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:49:01] Oh, yeah. And I know I was going to say when we were dating, we were very committed to not make any mistakes whatsoever, he and I. He never did anything to me to make me have to go to the

John Dehlin [01:49:14] patient for prior to getting married.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:49:15] Ever.

John Dehlin [01:49:15] Whoa.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:49:16] Ever after.

John Dehlin [01:49:17] Waiting that long.

Darian Rogers [01:49:18] Such a good boy.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:49:19] Ever. I have never felt more safe, which is so interesting because I needed to not feel pressure because women are pressured to do things that they don't want to do a lot, but then there's also. You want to do them and then you feel bad. So it's like just. It's all the things. But yeah, for me, it was.

Darian Rogers [01:49:40] For me, it was like. I didn't.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:49:41] He didn't want to.

Darian Rogers [01:49:42] I felt the Pain. I don't want anyone else to feel that. Yeah, it's before we.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:49:45] He was like, we know what it feels like to make that mistake. We're not going back there. We're getting it right this time. And so we were like, perfect.

Margi Dehlin [01:49:55] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:49:55] Dating. I was like, I will never give you a reason to question me wanting to marry you.

Darian Rogers [01:50:01] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:50:02] Ever.

Darian Rogers [01:50:02] And we got. When we got ready to get married, you always have the whole, like, I'm gonna pray about it and, like, fast about it. And in my mind, I was like, I'm not doing that. I'm like, if God doesn't know me and that this is the right person.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:50:18] Oh,

Darian Rogers [01:50:20] then he didn't give me.

Margi Dehlin [01:50:25] Yeah.

Darian Rogers [01:50:26] Oh, I got emotional about that. I don't like it that much. Podcast, you're great, but you're not that great.

Margi Dehlin [01:50:33] Sorry.

John Dehlin [01:50:35] It's beautiful. So I'm guessing you were married around 95ish. What year were you?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:50:40] 93.

John Dehlin [01:50:40] 93. Okay. Same year as us.

Darian Rogers [01:50:42] Yep.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:50:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:50:43] And then. Yeah, we were married in December. 93.

Darian Rogers [01:50:46] Congratulations.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:50:47] Congrats, guys.

John Dehlin [01:50:49] So how many years between your temple marriage and just to kind of get a sense for timeline. Oh, it's around 2000.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:50:59] 2004 is when we started listening. We were listening to you when you had, like, five followers or maybe just five episodes up. Like, we are OGs.

John Dehlin [01:51:09] Okay, so you're married in 93. So it's 12 years between your marriage and one of you starts listening to Mormon stories.

Darian Rogers [01:51:15] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:51:16] Well, and it started with. There was a 60 minute that we watch together. What you take in.

John Dehlin [01:51:21] Okay. Really? I was just gonna say. So you had three kids. We do talk really quickly. Just give us, like, the one minute of. Between your marriage. And when the crack started to emerge, what was your Mormon story in terms of kids?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:51:34] A kid. So I was on a career path, moved back, worked with my. Started working with my dad.

John Dehlin [01:51:40] Moved here.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:51:41] Yes, we moved back. Darren moved back, worked for Deloitte and Touche. He got his master's in accounting. We did a trip around Europe for a month, which was like the most amazing thing. I highly recommend. Way better than a mission. So if you're going to do something, go do something like that. And then went to work and started our careers. And I was on a career path, and he was on a career path. Real estate development. So I graduated in finance at BYU and then always took real estate classes. Always loved. I idolized my dad. Always want. I love development. And I think that's that creative side that we were talking about. That's Come out through design. But, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:52:23] What was the ratio of men to women in those BYU business classes?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:52:27] Oh, very small. And there's a whole story behind that. I wanted to get in the accounting program, and I was told I'm not to take a seat of a guy.

John Dehlin [01:52:37] What? Wait, who told you that?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:52:40] The professor.

Margi Dehlin [01:52:41] I've heard that before.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:52:43] I will not. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:52:44] You went to a bou. Professor and said what?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:52:47] Well, I had gotten straight A's, and I had done poorly on a test. I had gotten sick and. And, like, could not, like, was legit sick. I think I had a migraine, which. My migraines take me out, like, for days. Like, they're really bad. And so I had gotten a migraine and, like, during the test and got a horrible grade and went into him and said, hey, can I retake this? I had a migraine. And, like, this is the only thing that's going to possibly keep me out of this program. And he was like, absolutely not. And I would. Why would I do that for you when there's other people that have earned it? And by the way, you're a female and this is a men's. Like, why would I give that to. That up to a man who's just earned it?

Margi Dehlin [01:53:31] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:53:31] I was like, but I think your

Margi Dehlin [01:53:32] breadwinner is actually gonna have to. As opposed to you where you're going to.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:53:37] And I was like, but I have earned it. I got. But I'm wondering, like, if a man had said, I got a migraine, can I retake? Especially with my straight A's up until that point.

Margi Dehlin [01:53:49] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:53:50] Yeah. And I don't know that it would have kept me out of the program. I was concerned it would. But that. I mean, I called him afterwards. We were married at the time. I called him and sat in the car and just sobbed and sobbed and sobbed. And he was like, just still apply. And I'm like, no, F that. No. Eff it. Screw him. I'll go finance. I don't need this program. Like, I. It just was awful. It was a huge. Another byu. I don't have great memories and that. I have this. And I have our friends who are still with us, and our closest are. They're like cousins. They're our FR. Family.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:24] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:54:24] And. But other than that, horrible experiences with professors and coaches. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:54:31] So y' all moved to Nashville.

Darian Rogers [01:54:32] Nashville.

John Dehlin [01:54:33] You're doing real estate. You're doing Deloitte.

Darian Rogers [01:54:36] Doing Deloitte, yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:54:38] And then I get. I have an oopsies.

John Dehlin [01:54:41] How many. How. How long?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:54:42] Five years later, we've been married for

John Dehlin [01:54:43] five years, so that's a big deal. You waited five years.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:54:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:54:46] That's not on plan.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:54:47] No. And I was not ready, like, I was gonna have a baby in my 30s. And what's cool is my mom. So my mom got pregnant on her honeymoon because a doctor would not give her birth control. Refused, said, you can't get pregnant. Your uterus is tilted. Well, she is, like, I mean, ridiculously fertile. So got pregnant on her honeymoon and always said, do not do that. It made marriage so much more difficult because my dad ended up going to Vietnam. So she was pregnant alone and had a husband in Vietnam raising a baby. So just with my. That's where my mom and dad are trailblazers. They are trailblazers. Like, my dad is as an entrepreneur and leaving his family, and my mom is leaving the alcoholic, abusive family behind. And Mormonism saved her, so. And she trailblazed sheep. Stop that generational trauma. And my dad. They both did in their own way. But, yeah. And so, yeah, it got pregnant with Andrew. Oopsies. And then we were just like, well, it's going to happen. Here we go. Let's do this. Five years in and then all in. I always wanted kids. I always wanted a big family. I loved having. I freaking love kids. I love them. I just think that where God is, if there is such thing, or humanity, the most perfect, beautiful pieces of authentic humanity. And the vulnerable, all of it. Just the awe, the play, all of it. It's just I love to be in that presence.

Family Life and Callings in the Church

John Dehlin [01:56:22] So three kids in how many years?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:56:25] Three years apart.

John Dehlin [01:56:26] Okay, so intentionally, in six years, you had three kids?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:56:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:56:30] Okay. And so do I get a sense, Darren, you were lukewarm again. In your church children. No, in your church engagement.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:56:39] Yes, very.

Darian Rogers [01:56:40] I joke, but it's not a joke. It was serious. Like, I'm very driven, but I like to get paid for working. And so the concept of, like, trying to climb the ranks in, like, the Mormon Church.

Margi Dehlin [01:56:52] Yeah.

Darian Rogers [01:56:53] Didn't really appeal to me. Like, I would joke, like, I will support anyone to be bishop or stake president, as long as it's not me. I'll raise the hand, I'll slap your back, like, whatever you need. Just don't put me in charge. Like, I had no interest. And so, you know, I would joke that, like, you know, Sunday school was a little boring to me, so now I have a child that means I can roam the halls. I tried to get the bishop to give me a calling as a church hallway teacher, you know, for everybody roaming the Halls.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:57:23] Everyone else got a great idea. Yes.

Darian Rogers [01:57:27] If you're the. If you're the hallway riffraff and you're listening to this, you're my people. Like, I was gonna put up a scripture. You could go by and read it. And like, he didn't. He didn't buy it.

John Dehlin [01:57:36] But.

Darian Rogers [01:57:37] But yeah. So. So once again, similar. Like, as we got ready to leave Mormonism, the last calling, Jennifer was the young women's president, and they wanted me to be the Boy Scout leader. And funny story, they talked to Jennifer first because she had the.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:57:54] I was young women's president.

Darian Rogers [01:57:55] Yeah, women's president. And they're like, hey, we're going to offer this to your husband to be the Boy Scout leader. And she said, my husband didn't have a good experience in Boy Scouts. I was like, did you just tell them I got abused in Boy Scouts? Because that's not true.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:58:11] No, that's not what I meant to do. Like, he's not a camper. He's not a. But there was a little. Okay. I was.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:18] He wasn't the best at fire building.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:58:20] Is that what you were? Hated it. He hated it. So I was like, how do I. And he. We were also questioning big time at the time. Like, we were done. And so I'm like, how do I dodge this without making. Because Darren's like, just take care of it for me, please.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:35] Oh.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:58:35] And I was like, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:58:36] So super quick, how did. How did you feel about being lukewarm in terms of your relationship with God? And how did you, Jennifer, feel about him being lukewarm before the crack started emerging?

Darian Rogers [01:58:49] Once again, I'll say I'm not lukewarm. I'm 2 to 3 degrees. So I'm. I am in God's favor, John. Right. I'm just not the dude nibbling on,

John Dehlin [01:59:01] nibbling on the bad pizza.

Darian Rogers [01:59:04] Just want to creep in. I'm probably going to be a talent short. Back to my biscuit pizza. But I just. That's what I'm shooting for.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:59:11] He's just. Just get me in.

Darian Rogers [01:59:12] Right, right. Just get me in.

John Dehlin [01:59:13] Okay.

Darian Rogers [01:59:14] Get me in. I'm still doing all the things. Okay, so you were committed, you wanted

John Dehlin [01:59:18] it, you wanted it.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:59:19] Just no call it. Doesn't want to not get paid big callings.

Darian Rogers [01:59:22] You want primary, you want gospel doctrine, I'm your guy. But, like, you want someone to listen to bishop confessions, I'm out.

Margi Dehlin [01:59:28] I love that, though, because that is a bit of individuation. It is a bit of space from this, you know, all consuming narrative of yeah, yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:59:38] And I loved it. Like, I didn't mind that. I. I don't.

John Dehlin [01:59:42] You loved him being.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [01:59:43] Yes, I. Yes. I don't like people who are aspiring to callings because I feel like that's the opposite of what it's supposed to be. Yeah, truly. So I have a real aversion to people who aspire to callings, and I think that's judgy. So I'm gonna, like. I don't say that. I don't think that's necessarily right. If you want to know that. What's wrong with aspiring to a calling? If you want to do that and give, like, for whatever reason, it's a hard gig. Like, I did young women's. I was like, take it. Anybody. Like, you know, after so long, you're like, good luck. Take it.

Margi Dehlin [02:00:22] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:00:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:00:23] Were you able to keep your career while having kids? And if so, did you feel Mormon working mom shame?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:00:30] Oh, yes, absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:00:32] So both.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:00:33] Both. So, yes and no. So what. How I was able to navigate it is I do live near my family, and so my mom was extremely awesome. I also work with my dad, so I was taking my kids nursing. I had a stroller in my office, and I just was like, I'm here. I'm not going anywhere. So I would shut doors when I had to nurse. And Andrew was like the most perfect child ever. He's an observer, so he'd just sit in all my business meetings and just do this and not make a peep. And, like, it was amazing. Yeah, I took him. I showed. We built condos downtown. People 20 years later are like, oh, my gosh, Jen, I remember when you had Andrew in the little, you know, softy selling condominiums. So I just. I'm a girl in a man's world, and I always have been. And I'm also like, I just am who I am. So I have babies. That's who I am. And I'm not going anywhere. So that's maybe my rebellion a little bit. And I'm not going anywhere, by the way. Yeah. And so I was able to have help with my mom. Then one of my young women's was a. Was a homeschooled. And so she. I was like, they needed money. And I was like, do you want to nanny my kids? So how safe is that to have one of my young women's. And I would be able to go home, see him for lunch, go back. So I made it work. And the only. But that's. I just made it work. And I was lucky because I Worked with my dad, and he was open to it, and there was definitely pushback and I definitely got shamed at the office. Kind of like, are you really working? You know, kind of that thing or. But yeah, which I don't love. Which with COVID solved that a lot for people. And the.

John Dehlin [02:02:19] Did you feel Mormon working with shame?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:02:21] Just like, I wouldn't have been aware

Margi Dehlin [02:02:25] of it because you already have said you kind of already felt.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:02:29] Yeah. I didn't have a ton of friends within the church. Most of my friends are outside of the church. And I also just was so busy. Like, my friends were my exercise friends, if that makes any sense. And they were Mormon members of the church, but half of them didn't even go to my same ward, so I would. Yeah. So I was like, my young. I had time for my kids, my husband, my extended family, and my young women. And that was all consuming. Like, my weekends were with my young women. My young women were, like, coming to my house, hanging out like they were. They were my people because I was not going to let them feel any shame. So I wanted to have a place where they could. Came and were safe and could be fully authentically themselves. So that was my goal as young women. I didn't care about anything else.

Margi Dehlin [02:03:25] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:03:25] You will not be shamed. You will not be. You will be loved and valued and honored and safe. You can tell me anything here. I am not afraid of you. Yeah. That was just. That is how I approached that because of my own.

Margi Dehlin [02:03:41] Yeah, that.

Darian Rogers [02:03:42] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:03:42] And I love. I love how where you were hurt, where you were harmed and wounded, that when it came your turn around where you could switch.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:03:53] Oh, I did.

Margi Dehlin [02:03:54] You did. And you flipped it intentionally. Were absolutely determined not to do that.

John Dehlin [02:04:01] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:04:02] When it was in your power.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:04:03] Absolutely. I was like, you will be safe here. And if you don't have any of these other girls with you because I. Because girls can get catty. You got me.

Margi Dehlin [02:04:12] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:04:13] Yeah.

Raising Three Kids in the Church

John Dehlin [02:04:14] So up until the crack started emerging, you were raising your three kids devout Mormons. So they were raised Mormon up until time.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:04:23] Yes. Up until Andrew was 12.

John Dehlin [02:04:25] Okay.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:04:26] But it started when I was pregnant with Wyatt.

John Dehlin [02:04:28] What did our.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:04:30] Our listening to Mormon stories.

John Dehlin [02:04:31] Let's get into it. How did the crack start emerging in your Mormons?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:04:34] You were a gospel doctor teacher.

Darian Rogers [02:04:36] Yeah. There were things that we would talk about, kind of like all the stuff we talk about on our shelf that we talked about. Like, maybe we should look. Maybe it was a lot like we were talking about, like, never really looking at them, but, like, talking about Them. And we were close to. We were probably like 35 years old when we were. And I got. She got called to be young women's. I got called to be gospel doctor. And all of a sudden your world just like imploded with work. Like, work and all this stuff. And so we shelved everything. And then when I hit probably close to 40, you know, I got. I was retired from gospel doctrine. Like, I'm done with that. And I. It was kind of like a year where I, like turning 4. I was like, I'm going to start facing all my fears. So fear number one for me was swimming, of all things. It was like, I'm going to learn to swim better. And as exercise, I lasted like three days. But I started kind of going like, I'm willing to go look.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:05:32] And we both did. We were like. And we said when we first started dating, we were like, we're gonna look. Like, when our testimonies are solid, we're gonna look and we're gonna figure this out so that we then will know how to tell our kids and help and like, where. Because I am not a hider. I don't like secrets. Secrets, I think are. I can't do them. I'm like, no. Expose. Expose.

Margi Dehlin [02:05:56] Expose.

Darian Rogers [02:05:57] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:05:57] So.

John Dehlin [02:05:58] But also note you're saying that you held off looking into questions about the church for 20 to 30 years.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:06:05] Yes, that's a great point.

Darian Rogers [02:06:07] Thank you, John.

John Dehlin [02:06:08] You're like, we're gonna look once we're 40 years. I mean, how much time they give you paid at that point?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:06:19] Oh, my gosh. What is that?

John Dehlin [02:06:21] Yeah.

First Cracks in Faith and Faith Transition

Darian Rogers [02:06:22] And there were two things that, you know, I. I mentioned before. One was the south park episode about Mormons.

John Dehlin [02:06:28] Tell the audience what. What happens in.

Darian Rogers [02:06:31] In, you know. And it did.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:06:33] It did make a crack in the.

Darian Rogers [02:06:35] Right. In this episode. If you've never seen it, you should go see talks about the starting of Mormonism. In. In. In it, there was a lot of information that I had never heard of before. Like, there are rocks and. And hats. And I'm like, didn't know about that.

John Dehlin [02:06:49] What do you mean rocks and hats?

Darian Rogers [02:06:50] Like, how. Oh, yeah, how Joseph Smith trans. Like, I was taught that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon through a Urim and thumma.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:06:56] An actual golden plate.

Darian Rogers [02:06:58] Golden plates. And then in this south park episode, they're talking about Joseph Smith looking into a hat with rock. Magical rocks.

John Dehlin [02:07:05] And I was like, and the plates aren't anywhere.

Darian Rogers [02:07:07] And the plates aren't anywhere. And I'm like, that's not true. And My brother in law goes actually, and he had like read something about it because he had seen the episode before. And so there were, there were things that I was like, I never heard that before.

John Dehlin [02:07:19] And why is south park teaching me? I'm like, about my own church.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:07:23] South park go see Book of Mormon musical. That's all I have to say.

Darian Rogers [02:07:27] Like, they know more about my religion than I do. And I've been in this for 20 years. You know, how dare you. No more 40 years. And then there was a PBS special about Mormonism in. In.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:07:39] We were. I remember sitting in bed watching it and we both went like this and we're like, we got some investigating.

John Dehlin [02:07:44] It's called the Mormons. Yeah, that was right around 2000.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:07:46] Yeah.

Darian Rogers [02:07:47] It was supposed to gonna be this

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:07:48] inspiring like a show.

Darian Rogers [02:07:49] And I was like. I was like, it still holds up.

John Dehlin [02:07:52] People should check that out.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:07:54] So that's a wave of like fear comes over you and anxiety. Like, I know what that is now. That was like fear that we. That we. So a lot of people are like, if it's feels bad, that's a. That's a sign that it is bad.

Margi Dehlin [02:08:07] Right.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:08:08] That is not true.

Margi Dehlin [02:08:09] That's right.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:08:10] That is absolutely not the case. And I do want to talk about really quick, if I can interject. Mormonism teaches you to turn away from yourself. From yourself. To turn, turn it off and to not listen to it. And so when. And so that feeling bad like that, that feeling of, ooh, that fear that when we heard that there was definitely something in there that was like, something is not right. But it wasn't this. But Mormons turned that into, oh, this is bad. I shouldn't listen. No, something is not right. Something is not. You're. You're absolutely correct. Trust that. Trust that something is off.

John Dehlin [02:08:53] With the church.

Darian Rogers [02:08:54] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:08:54] Yes. Not with you. Something is off. And so like, that's one thing. I was with my kids. You don't ever turn your moral authority over to anyone else. That is yours. Including me. Including your dad.

Margi Dehlin [02:09:10] That's right.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:09:11] Like, we are not that either. Yeah, no one should be. Yeah, yeah. Sorry, I went off topic.

John Dehlin [02:09:20] South Park.

Darian Rogers [02:09:20] And so, yeah, south park and PBS special. Then I started going down a rabbit hole and started researching whatever I could find. Like what?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:09:28] Because the Internet now, it's all.

Darian Rogers [02:09:29] There's a lot more information. And I'm running into Terrell Givens and I'm running into like all of it.

John Dehlin [02:09:34] Richard Bushman.

Darian Rogers [02:09:35] Richard Bushman. Roughstone Rolling was kind of coming out at the same time frame I was Like, I gotta look at this book. And I also had a good friend of mine that Jennifer mentioned that she grew up with was another guy. And we'd get to lunch, go to lunch like every week just to hang out. And he, his wife, he had married a girl from college and she had converted to Mormonism. They had never been married in the temple. And they were kind of at that point of like, hey, we kind of need to do the whole marriage.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:10:03] Like, are we going to get married in that. Yeah.

Darian Rogers [02:10:05] For eternity thing. And so I was kind of doing my little study on the side. And I didn't know he was kind of talking to his wife. And his wife was struggling with some of the concepts and within Mormon.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:10:16] Well, because she's getting ready to get married in the temple. And so she's googling and researching and then comes across all this information. So she's this convert now talking to her husband who's been in Mormonism his entire life, sharing information he's never heard. I can't even imagine being in Laird's shoes. Like, I can't even imagine.

Darian Rogers [02:10:41] And we would go to lunch and his wife had seen stuff. And we were also reading things for the first time too.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:10:46] And we were like, endless.

Darian Rogers [02:10:47] I was like, I didn't know Joseph Smith was a polygamist. Like, I really didn't. I'd served two years. Like, you know, I didn't know that. I thought those just spring and my young stuff, you know, and then he'd be like, wasabut, what's polyandry? I'm like, I don't know. What's polyandry? Marrying someone who's already married. Like, like all these new things.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:11:05] Never heard of it.

John Dehlin [02:11:06] What does that have to do with Joseph Smith?

Darian Rogers [02:11:07] What's that?

John Dehlin [02:11:08] What does that have to do with Joseph Smith? For our audience.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:11:10] So they know to explain it.

Darian Rogers [02:11:12] Yeah. That, you know, polygamy. He took on more wives, but then he started marrying other men's wives. And they're alive, you know, and, and

John Dehlin [02:11:22] like up to 12.

Darian Rogers [02:11:23] Yeah, yeah. Like the. Who is it?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:11:25] They were already married.

Darian Rogers [02:11:27] The Xena. Yeah, yeah. You read that story and it is heartbreaking from, from. From the wife and the husband's perspective.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:11:38] Right.

Darian Rogers [02:11:38] That poor husband, like her husband shipped off her mission so he can move in. Like, it's, it's. It's nuts. And in. For me, the polygamy thing really starts. Starts to hit because I have a daughter.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:11:53] Right.

Darian Rogers [02:11:54] And you really start to think about it. You're like, my daughter is worth one fifth of A man's love. This is complete bullshit. Like, is the biggest bunch of bullshit I've ever heard. Like, I'm not signing up for this.

Margi Dehlin [02:12:10] Yep.

Darian Rogers [02:12:11] And if I don't believe that you're not willing to live it, I'm out. Right. And if you're telling me my daughter's gonna have, like, I'm not doing that. And it's crazy. It didn't bother me about my own wife that she would have been like. Or that you had been put in that position. Like, it just hit me, like, just a bag of bricks.

Margi Dehlin [02:12:37] Yeah.

Darian Rogers [02:12:37] But. Yeah. Yeah, that was. That was. That was just massive for me, as well as all the doctrinal stuff, though, in the history. The history. Like, everything.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:12:48] Everything. It just. It's. It's like a giant wave that starts like this and then it just grows and fully envelops you. And. And you. You, like, go into this cocoon. Like, you go into fetal. You are literally in fetal because it envelops you, and you're like, how do I survive this wave? Like, bunched up in a ball. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:13:18] But the typical believing spouse response is to be mad that your spouse is learning these things and to double down and go the other direction towards more devout faithfulness. You didn't have that reaction?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:13:31] I'm taking no. And there's no way I would have, because this man has never given me any reason to question his sincerity, his honesty. So that's. Yeah, it's easy if you're with someone who's never given you a reason to question that. And look, how do you. How do you see this and turn away from it? That's the part I don't get. How do you see pain and not lean in? I don't understand it.

Margi Dehlin [02:14:10] That's right.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:14:11] Right.

Margi Dehlin [02:14:11] Yes. With someone you love, how would you.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:14:14] How do you not go here. Sorry. As I'm eating the microphone. How do you not lean in when you see pain? And pain can look like rage, it can look like anguish, it can look like tears, it can look like gray rocking. But, like, I can see it on, John. I can see it on. I could see. I can see where you're at the minute you walked in my house. And then I saw something positive happen. And I could see. We were. We. We got. We made it through that.

Margi Dehlin [02:14:50] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:14:50] And I just don't get it. Yeah, that's the piece I don't comprehend.

John Dehlin [02:14:56] But you were the. You were an exception because 99% of. Well, I'll say 60 to 80% of faithful Mormon spouses question whether they want a divorce. In my experience, they're questioning spouse. I mean, a lot of them don't make it through that, and they just end up getting divorced because you're not gonna stay married to someone who's left the church. Yeah, but you didn't have that reaction.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:15:22] And I won't lie. Like, I had moments where. Cause we laugh. Humor is, like, our release. And I'd be like, God damn it. Why are you. Are you seriously making me do this right now? I do not have time for this. I am working. I am literally young women's president right now. I am nursing a baby. I am like, you are traveling. I could kill you. I could kill you right now. But then it was like. But I gotcha, you know? Like, so it was not perfect.

Darian Rogers [02:15:52] It was messy.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:15:53] Like, it was messy. Like, I would get mad. He would get mad. I mean, tell the story about driving in Florida. Like, we had our kids. So our kids joke about. Well, we were telling John and Marty that John, he should be on the calm app for our children because they were raised on his voice on car drives.

Margi Dehlin [02:16:10] Like, time to go to sleep.

Darian Rogers [02:16:15] Time to shut it down.

Margi Dehlin [02:16:18] He's told that a lot by adults. Even

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:16:22] Wyatt was like, oh, you're John Deyn. He goes like this. So, I mean, that's their experience of it. Of course. Like, way over their heads. They're not listening. But we would get pretty heated.

Darian Rogers [02:16:36] Tell the funny story about Andrew.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:16:38] Yes, you tell. No, you're funnier.

Darian Rogers [02:16:41] Not true. But, yeah, we were. We were. We were going to the beach. We're going on vacation. We're listening to Mormon stories. Our kids are in the back.

Margi Dehlin [02:16:48] Some light fair.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:16:50] Because once you start, you can't stop.

Darian Rogers [02:16:52] You can't stop. And we would. You know, we'd put, like, stuff like headphones on our kids.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:16:56] Yeah, we were like, put these headphones on.

Darian Rogers [02:16:58] You watch your TV while we play in the front of the car.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:17:01] And I wish I had one of those glass things.

Darian Rogers [02:17:04] Yeah, we wanted to.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:17:06] Where it's like, every parent wants one, right?

Darian Rogers [02:17:08] Like, can't hear you, but we're arguing about something, and I can't remember what it was. I don't know what the topic was about Mormonism. And it got heated, and Jennifer did say, fine, we'll just get divorced. Then, like, she threw.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:17:22] Just divorced me.

Darian Rogers [02:17:23] Then she threw the divorce card so quickly, like, bam, take that. And there's kind of quiet in the car. And a couple minutes later, I hear our oldest son Andrew's phone just getting texts, like, ping Ding, ping, ping, ding, ding, ding, ding. And like, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Andrew, what's going on? He's like, nothing. And like more text. Ping, ping.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:17:43] I'm like, give me your phone.

Darian Rogers [02:17:44] And Jefferson's like, give me your phone. And she takes his phone. And he had sent a text to all of our family members that said, my mom and dad are getting divorced. Can I come live at your house?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:17:56] Everyone and our closest friends?

Darian Rogers [02:17:59] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:18:00] And so then I'm getting calls like, hey, is everything okay? I'm like, what the. Yeah, we're fine. We're fine. Thank you, Andrew. And nice to know that he was just like, well, I'll go find somewhere else to live. About the main concern, which is where I'm gonna live.

Darian Rogers [02:18:17] Right?

John Dehlin [02:18:19] So. So tell me if I'm wrong, but I was conditioned to believe that if you didn't raise your kids in the Mormon Church, they would likely become drug dealers or sex workers. Like, you couldn't raise healthy, happy, moral children outside of Mormonism. And I'm not making that up. I'm not exaggerating.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:18:39] No, I.

John Dehlin [02:18:40] It kept me in the church 13 years after I lost my faith in it, thinking there's no way I can raise a healthy, happy, moral kid. So did. Did you guys think about that when you thought about leaving? And did you think about it in the other way, about how you might harm your kid by raising them Mormon? Each of you take a turn.

Darian Rogers [02:19:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:19:04] Each of you take a turn at your thoughts around leaving the church as it related to what would be best for your kids. Do you want to start, Jen?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:19:14] Sure. So I did a slow burn. Like you, I kind of follow you were trying to stay in. So I was like, great, we're going to try and stay in.

John Dehlin [02:19:22] Sorry, John's staying in.

Darian Rogers [02:19:24] We're staying in.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:19:24] It's all John's fault. Do you like, do you like to hear that? It's all John's fault? But anyway, so we really were trying to. And what, that's what people don't understand is when you start this, you're trying to make it work. You. Because otherwise you are losing your family, you are losing your community, which I lost. Your extended family, you lose. I lost all of it. I lost all of my community. I got completely X' ed out of my friendship group. Completely. And I own a lot of that because I was very prickly at the time. I'm recognizing now I was in trauma. Like I was in full blown overwhelm, PTSD trauma, and just grabbing, like needing help, like desperate grabbing Onto anybody who I thought was. Would be there because your family and your closest friends. Like, where. Where else you gonna go? A stranger. Like, that's the weirdest part about the whole thing. And so. Yeah. So raising our kids was slow burn. We would. We would go to church and then I would say, what did you learn? We would come home.

Margi Dehlin [02:20:33] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:20:33] And I would say, what did you learn? And then we would have to deconstruct that. We're not taking. But this. Let's talk about this message. This. This. Beatitudes. Basically just Beatitudes. We just went always back to Beatitudes. Love, love, love. Yeah. And then. And then I would make them listen to scriptures on the way to school. I started with the Book of Mormon and then the blacks in the priesthood scripture came up. It was the kids version. Oh, wow. Right. And it came through my speakers and I was like, well, that's done. So I stopped doing Book of Mormon. Then I went to Bible and we would do bible listening on the way to school. And then there's such gen. Like, that's also not great.

John Dehlin [02:21:16] Genocide. You're gonna say.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:21:18] Yes. And Abraham and Isaac, like small children. That's. It's not. No.

John Dehlin [02:21:25] Noah's flood.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:21:26] Yes. Yes. Like, it's. It's like pretty scary stuff, you know. And Wyatt has this guy's anxiety, which is like, just came out of the womb.

Margi Dehlin [02:21:37] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:21:38] Fearful. And so. Yeah. Like, no, I'm like, we can't do this. And so then it turned to. For me, it was like family home evenings. Yes. Love the concept. We're doing it. My parents made family home evenings so fun. So I'm like keeping that. We're going to do that Sunday turned into hikes. We went one year. We were going to do every waterfall hike within a driving distance. Like one summer. So it just. We just. And then there was always a lesson to talk. Talk about some kind of spiritual something. So we just really. You know, I took that on. Darren, on the other hand, was just done. Like, he was like, chapter closed. I don't want to think about God. I don't. Like, he was like a. Like a burned.

Darian Rogers [02:22:32] I was like a divorced husband who's like, I'm never getting married again.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:22:35] Yes.

Darian Rogers [02:22:35] That's. That was an abusive relationship. And I. Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:22:38] Yeah. It's like, I'm never doing.

Darian Rogers [02:22:39] Not worth the risk that we had a connection and you took me down the wrong road for a really long time. You didn't say anything. And if you existed, then you should have said something. And I'm out.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:22:49] Yeah.

Darian Rogers [02:22:50] It was. It was kind of a. Like a bad relationship with a father and son at that point. I was like, yeah, so no new church.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:22:57] And no.

Darian Rogers [02:22:58] And I'd love to talk to mom, but I'm out, too. She's. If she's hanging out with you, God.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:23:02] And then, yeah, Mother in heaven, I

Darian Rogers [02:23:04] don't know how she's putting up with you, because I read the Old Testament, and I was like, yeah, she should

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:23:09] have put you in your place by now.

Margi Dehlin [02:23:11] So where is she?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:23:12] Where is she? Yes. Come on, Mom. But, yeah, so there was that. And then I did try to other churches. I did, because I was speaking. I lost all my Mormon friends because I couldn't talk to them about anything. Couldn't talk to my family. Really damaged all my relationships with my parents and my siblings. Like. Like, almost to the some. To the point of no return, unfortunately. I will own that. But they also have their. I will meet you 50. 50 wasn't all me. Happy to compromise and own half of it, but not taking all. Not owning all of it anymore. So that. And then. So I was talking to other. Everybody goes to church here. So I'm like, tell me about your church. Tell me about your church. So we had a million churches we could go to and try, but it was during Prophet. Right. So all Christian churches are on the bandwagon. So eventually, some dogma would come up, and I'm like, can't do it. We're out. And so eventually, just none of that.

Navigating LGBT Issues and Shifting Values

John Dehlin [02:24:18] So anti LGBT rhetoric cannot do it.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:24:22] No. I have a cousin who is gay and. And has a beautiful wife, and my kids met her for the first time when they were little, and we were going out to Arizona, and this was why we were still in the church. And I was like, hey, we're gonna go meet my cousin Angela and Tanya. They're amazing people, and they're married, and just like dad and I and my kids were like, oh, like. And is Tanya a boy? I'm like, no, Tanya's a girl. And they're like, oh, cool.

Margi Dehlin [02:24:50] Yeah. Awesome.

John Dehlin [02:24:52] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:24:53] Nothing. Yeah, nothing. No, really? That's weird. Nothing.

Margi Dehlin [02:24:57] Just.

John Dehlin [02:24:57] Oh, cool.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:24:58] Can't wait to meet her. And they absolutely adore them.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:01] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:25:02] And then the other story, at the same time, where I really found my community was through the creative community, the creative arts with my kids. And Wyatt's vocal coach was gay and was afraid to tell us. And he also went to school at Belmont, which is a Christian university. And at the time he was going there, you couldn't really come out, right? And he grew up as a son of a pastor kid. So if you tell your story, people are going to come out of the woodwork talking to the audience. You will have people outside of Mormon who have experienced your experience, just a different path, and they're. That you will find your people. But anyway, he was afraid to tell us he was gay because he. Where you. Where'd you go to school? I hate saying byu, because then people are like, oh, you're not going to like me and would not tell us. And I kept saying, ryan, come to dinner. Like, come. Like, come have. Bring who? Like, are you dating anybody? Bring them. And finally one day, and he just kept saying, no, no, no, no, no. And finally he was like, jennifer, I need to tell you something. I'm gay, and my partner is a man. And I was like, awesome. When do we get to meet him? Like, awesome. Love it. And he goes, really? And I'm like, yes, would love it. And I was like, we've got. Does he like hockey? He was like, he loves hockey. He's from Chicago. And I was like, darren's gonna take you and Wyatt and your. He was his fiancee at the time. To a hockey game. So Wyatt goes with Darren to this hockey game, and the whole time, Darren says he's just watching to see if Wyatt says anything about Ryan. Like. Like. Kind of like, are they dating? Like, who is this Evan guy? They got watched the whole thing. We're Predators fans. We're playing Chicago Blackhawks. And after the game, they have the greatest time. Wyatt gets in the car with Darren, and. And. And Wyatt goes, hey, dad, you know what I think? And Darren's like, what? He's like, something about Evan and that, you know, which is Ryan's boyfriend. And. And he goes, yeah. And Wyatt goes, I think he's a Blackhawks fan. There it is.

Margi Dehlin [02:27:17] Yeah, absolutely.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:27:19] Yeah. Kind of like, I don't know about him. He's a Blackhawks fan.

Margi Dehlin [02:27:23] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:27:23] And they ended up years later getting married and our backyard. So these are like, this is what can happen if you expand, stay curious, and open up.

Margi Dehlin [02:27:35] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:27:36] And certainty kills curiosity.

Margi Dehlin [02:27:39] Yeah, absolutely.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:27:40] Say that out loud. Certainty kills curiosity. And I think the goal for us is to remain curious the rest of our lives. Yeah, I love that. All right.

Parenting After Leaving the Church

Margi Dehlin [02:27:55] I have a question about parenting. Before your kind of faith shift, I don't know how you would talk about it. Faith, transition, faith. But how you would kind of talk about your parenting values. I think it's, you know, within the church. Obedience, control. I don't know how you kind of how you would describe if there was a big difference at all. Maybe not, but your kids were kind of young, it sounds like, when you started this path. So if they're. And if not, that's okay. But also where you ended up, like, how would you describe, as they were teens, what your values for parenting, how they became or what they became or how they changed? Let's say.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:28:41] Yeah, talk about my dad really quick about what he said about Andrew and what he was saying.

Darian Rogers [02:28:45] You should tell the story because you

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:28:47] were there, but you tell about what she said.

Darian Rogers [02:28:49] Yeah. Just try to answer your question. 1. I'll answer both your question, like, your question and what you were saying earlier. When I, when we got ready to, like, leave, I had tons of fear regarding raising my kids because that was. The parenting I received was really more Mormon parenting.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:29:10] It wasn't only Mormon.

Darian Rogers [02:29:11] It was just Mormonism. It wasn't like, hey, what do you want to do for a career? What's your goals? And all those other things, or what's your passions? It was more like, go to church, go on a mission. Like, we, we within the boys, we talk about, like, we didn't really get to know our authentic dad. We got more of a bishop than a. Than a father figure.

Margi Dehlin [02:29:31] Right.

Darian Rogers [02:29:31] And even when he passed, you're kind of like, you're looking through pictures and you're like, who was he beyond the kind of Mormon personality and mask. So tons of fear there. I would say kind of one of the things that we did, whether we did it consciously or subconsciously, is we replaced your passions in place of Mormonism. Does that make sense? So, like, rather than Mormonism is going to be your track of who you are in high school and what you. You're going to be and what you want to do. It was like, what are you interested in your passions? So, like, our oldest was a tennis player. So we're like, hey, as a Mormon, like, tennis is big in the Southeast, and there's tournaments every weekend somewhere at different levels. It's like, if we're Mormon, we're not taking the time to do that because it's on Sunday. Right? And it's on the weekends. It takes away from the family.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:30:26] You're never. You're.

Darian Rogers [02:30:27] Now it became more of like, you want to chase that? Let's chase it.

Margi Dehlin [02:30:31] Yeah, right. Let's see and let's.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:30:33] Let's go as far as we can explore it. Let's go support that. Yeah.

Darian Rogers [02:30:38] I read some book about growing the tree you got. I don't know if you've ever seen that book before, but it talks about let your kids chase the dream as far as they can, and if it comes to an end, let them go for another one.

Margi Dehlin [02:30:50] Yeah, that's right.

Darian Rogers [02:30:51] It's just like, one ends and another one begins. And so that's kind of where our kind of focus went was like, so our oldest is going to be interested in tennis, our daughter's going to be more theater and songwriting, and our youngest is going to be performing arts. So it's going to be like singing, musical theater, and acting. And so that kind of became like, hey, and. And now you can learn lessons about work ethic and you. And goal setting. And that's.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:31:24] Yeah.

Darian Rogers [02:31:25] Like.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:31:25] But it's also like, we. We did not have choice. I didn't have choice in my home.

Margi Dehlin [02:31:30] Right.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:31:31] Like, truly no choice. That's the piece that people don't get. Or if you've never grown up Mormon, like, your choices are taken from you. You don't have choice. Like, it's. This is what you're supposed to do. It's what you're supposed to do.

Margi Dehlin [02:31:49] That's right.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:31:50] And that was the one thing we both talked about, is our kids will have choice.

John Dehlin [02:31:57] Beautiful. So it seems like encouraging your kids to pursue their passions was a really important way that you shifted your parenting style. Did you ever have an explicit sit down with your kids saying, hey, we're leaving the church, and here's why. Was that even necessary? And if so, what was that like? And did you tell them why?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:32:20] I'm gonna let you take that one,

Darian Rogers [02:32:21] honey, I don't remember.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:32:23] We did.

Darian Rogers [02:32:23] Did we? You're gonna have to tell. Unfortunately, you have to tell it, cuz

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:32:26] I. Yeah, we did. Well, first of all, we made all of our kids take the missionary discussions, so before they even got baptized, we were very like, this is a huge commitment. This is a lifestyle. We were very open and honest and we were like, and you need to know why you're doing this. And these are all. These are our concerns. Like, polygamy is an issue. You know, blacks in the priesthood is an issue. They're not. They're not positive lgbtq. So none of that was really happening with Andrew as much because he was 12 when we, like, officially left. But for him, you know, when he. He. So we are. None of our kids got baptized at 8 because we thought that was way too young. Yep.

Margi Dehlin [02:33:10] And.

Darian Rogers [02:33:11] And we waited to the ripe age of nine.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:33:13] The ripe age of nine. Because you're much smarter than.

Margi Dehlin [02:33:16] Than.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:33:16] Yeah. But it was really a choice. It was like, it is your choice and you absolutely do not have to do this. No one is requiring this of you. But if you're gonna do it, you're gonna have eyes wide open.

Margi Dehlin [02:33:28] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:33:28] So that's. That's the goal. And I still would not tell my kids they cannot be Mormon. I'm like, no, eyes wide open. If you investigate everything, it's like writing a pro con paper in school. I told my children that we have to earn our opinions. You have to earn your opinion, which means you have to do the research and you have to do a pro con paper. So you're not allowed to earn an opinion if you're only listening to one side. That's not an opinion. We don't call that an opinion. So you have to earn it. So that's one thing that came out of all of this. And then Andrew chose, and his reasoning was he had seen his cousins all get baptized and it was part of our family and he wanted to just participate as just a family ritual. And I was like, yeah, love it. Perfect. And so Darren baptized him in our pool.

Darian Rogers [02:34:23] Yeah. We never baptized in a Mormon church.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:34:25] Never church.

Darian Rogers [02:34:26] We did it in a pool with Andrew. We were just starting to like leaving to think about leaving. Right. It was like some cracks were happening. And then.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:34:36] And we had all of our friends, all of our non Mormon friends. We didn't. Everything we did within Mormonism, we did with people outside, like Laura. We didn't know Laura and Tony at the time. Had we. They would have been invited.

Darian Rogers [02:34:49] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:34:50] All of our neighbors were invited where like that. Our neighbors Brad and Wendy, who woke up or who came down when they were drinking and came to befriend us. We told you guys that story on the hike. It was all non members. And we did it at our pool and it was beautiful and it was a celebration.

Darian Rogers [02:35:10] The funny thing is, our youngest, when he met with the missionaries.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:35:15] Oh, yeah, this is fun. He's our fear guy. He's our.

Darian Rogers [02:35:19] He just has an experience of three weeks where he had had like some. Some kind of virus where he was on the toilet 24, 7, literally for three weeks.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:35:28] It was awful miserable.

Darian Rogers [02:35:30] In that process, he lost his faith in God because he was like on the toilet at age, like 8, and he's like, I've been praying to get better for three weeks now, and nobody's answering.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:35:40] He's like, God.

Darian Rogers [02:35:41] He's like, God did not exist. So the missionaries.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:35:43] Absolutely not.

Darian Rogers [02:35:44] Missionaries show up and they're like. They're like, hey, Wyatt, you know, God Answers prayers. And he's like. His hand goes up. His hand literally goes, three weeks on the toilet, you know, I got nothing.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:35:58] I got nothing.

Darian Rogers [02:36:01] And Wyatt then started interrogating the missionaries. He's like, I have a question. How long's your church?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:36:08] How long do I have to go?

Darian Rogers [02:36:10] Like, how long do I have to go? And they're like, well, you know, there's Sunday school, there's this or that. There's three hours. He goes, no, no, no, no, no. My friend Kyle goes to church one

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:36:18] hour, and there's a live band.

Darian Rogers [02:36:20] And there's a band.

Margi Dehlin [02:36:21] Yeah.

Darian Rogers [02:36:22] He's like, do you have a band? They're like, no. He's like, I'm out.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:36:25] Yeah.

Darian Rogers [02:36:25] Why

John Dehlin [02:36:28] I should warn people that there's. They're doing. There's lawn mowing going on. So if you hear noise. No, no, no, it's fine. No, no, no. I'm just saying they wanted me to tell the audience that if you hear the lawn mowing, we'd rather get the recorded than worry about the sound. So please bear with us with the lawnmower. So did you. So I. I think that's why it

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:36:45] chose not to get baptized.

Darian Rogers [02:36:47] He's the one that the missionaries show up for, and they. He gets scared.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:36:50] Yeah. So he. They're still coming after Wyatt. We tell him every time. We're like, well, when they come, you know who they're coming for. It's like, you're the last. Last old.

John Dehlin [02:36:59] It's such an interesting approach where you're thinking about leaving the church, and so you have your kids take the missionary discussions. That's counterintuitive, but kind of brilliant.

Darian Rogers [02:37:08] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:37:08] Yeah.

Darian Rogers [02:37:08] If you're kind of like.

John Dehlin [02:37:10] It's kind of like informed consent. You want your kids to know if they're going to join, what they're really giving.

Margi Dehlin [02:37:15] You're adding the layers of informed consent. So not just the discussions, but also, hey, here are some things we think you should know.

John Dehlin [02:37:23] But also, Jesus said, be like the little child. You're letting your kids make their own decision without the coercion.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:37:30] None.

John Dehlin [02:37:30] And. And instinctively, at least in Wyatt's case, they're saying, I'm out. This doesn't feel good.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:37:36] Yeah. And Wyatt just is like, yeah. And then Alexand joined because, one, she wanted to do what her family did. She's our middle. And the other, she had a crush on a boy. And she said, there's this boy at church, and he's really cute, so I'm gonna get baptized so I can see him on Sunday.

Margi Dehlin [02:37:54] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:37:55] And I'm like, that's the age they're at. That's what baptism means. It's just I want to be part of a community. So isn't that interesting? Yeah, that's all it is to a child at that age. I just want to be part of something.

Margi Dehlin [02:38:09] Yeah, I like that too because in framing it that way, it allows them to have the process of connecting to what's important to them. Their why, whatever that why is which that self connection, I think is a really important piece that's not within Mormonism does not want that. Actually.

John Dehlin [02:38:31] You're handing over the driving to them. They're driving their own ship.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:38:35] They are driving it, which is where

Darian Rogers [02:38:37] it really should be. So much of Mormonism is forcing down your kids throats what you were taught versus like, hey, this is your life. What do you want to do with it?

John Dehlin [02:38:48] Well, Jen, like you had said you could be in sports, but you, you know that your parents had where they wanted you to go.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:38:56] Yeah, right.

John Dehlin [02:38:57] And you weren't going to do that

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:38:58] to your own kids. No. And I think too it's limiting with women because for sure I was like, I need to pursue something that I can still be a mom now. I wanted kids, so, so that was important to me and I did want to raise my own children, but I still wanted to work. Yeah, I, and I loved having nannies. They are like my own children and they are some of my young women's. And we are still, I mean she's. Christina Chatfield is still like a daughter to me. I mean, and now she's one of my best friends.

Margi Dehlin [02:39:29] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:39:29] So it's these children. I also think like a lot of times you think you're fooling kids. You're not, you're not actually fooling anybody. Like everybody can see you and you know what I'm saying, like we think we're fooling people. We're not.

Margi Dehlin [02:39:50] Give me an example of that. Like with regard to.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:39:52] Well, if, like, if somebody's like, you know, heard you, I heard you were talking about me and you said this thing about. Or you think I, you know, like somebody said this and it sounded like they'd been talking to you because, you know, you think I'm sorry, selfish or self absorbed.

Margi Dehlin [02:40:08] Right.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:40:08] Or something like that. And it's like, you know what, I wouldn't have to say that if you were that in that moment, that is who you were in that moment.

John Dehlin [02:40:17] So apply it to the church so we know what you're really saying about the church and your Kids. You're saying you. You're not fooling your kids.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:40:23] Yeah. Like, you just aren't fooling anybody. Like, as far as, like, we. We can pretend we're happy in marriage. You're not fooling your. Your kids, they know you're not happy.

Margi Dehlin [02:40:34] Right.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:40:35] That's kind of what I mean.

Margi Dehlin [02:40:36] Got it.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:40:37] Right.

John Dehlin [02:40:37] Are you saying they knew you weren't into the church?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:40:40] No, I'm saying. Well, if anything, like, if, if we were trying to pretend we were in church, our kids would have known it.

Margi Dehlin [02:40:47] That's right.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:40:47] That's what I'm trying to say.

Margi Dehlin [02:40:48] That's right. There's an integrity kind of piece and let's just say like a bullshitometer. Especially, Especially teens, like tweens and teens. I feel like it's like, very. It's just honed in. Just like you are a hypocrite or you are not doing what you say you want me to do or.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:41:08] Right, yeah, no, that's what I mean. Like, you're not fooling your children.

Margi Dehlin [02:41:12] Right.

John Dehlin [02:41:12] So you said there was a moment you set them aside and said, we're done.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:41:15] We did. It was after. Yeah, we just said we're not going to go anymore. And it was the. It was after Andrew got the priesthood. And that's when going into young men is. That's the scary. Because that's when all that morality stuff starts.

Margi Dehlin [02:41:27] That's right. The shame.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:41:28] And that is our trauma. And it's massive. And so I just was having like, massive angst. Like, what are they telling and what are they teaching and what are they saying and how much self hatred has already started. Like, it's just when you're told you're evil, naturally, that's just such a damaging message. No, my humans, all humans are naturally beautiful.

Margi Dehlin [02:41:52] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:41:53] And yeah, it's just such the opposite.

Darian Rogers [02:41:58] We, we also, we did kind of a slow walk away.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:42:02] Very slow.

Darian Rogers [02:42:03] Like, it wasn't abrupt. Like, we're done with our kids, like doing travel, sports and kind of other activities. It gave an excuse to not be at church, if that makes sense. And it was kind of like, oh, we're here.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:42:15] Where you been?

Darian Rogers [02:42:16] Two weeks out. the same time. I had business with. With, like, the people who were buying were both Mormon. And I was so.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:42:26] He couldn't.

Darian Rogers [02:42:26] I was afraid at two companies. I was afraid, like, it was 90% of all the income coming into those entities at the time. I was like, I'm not exiting right now. Like, you know, I'm gonna.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:42:36] It would have, like, it would have destroyed us Financially. And it was actually Christina Chatfield's dad was one of them. But even as much as I love her and that family, it's. You're nervous about.

Margi Dehlin [02:42:47] Yeah, yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:42:48] Letting people know.

Darian Rogers [02:42:49] One guy was our former bishop, and he ended up being the CFO in Florida. Like, it was kind of happening, but at the same time, you're just like. You're fearful. We connected on Mormonism. Now Mormonism is no longer here.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:43:02] Do you still.

Darian Rogers [02:43:03] Do we like each other?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:43:04] Yeah.

Darian Rogers [02:43:05] We've never known this without it, you know, it's kind of a weird space to be in.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:43:09] Did you feel that, like, kind of not knowing who to trust? And if.

John Dehlin [02:43:14] It's very common for people to be terrified, to stop believing. There's this notion of pimo physically and mentally out. And it's this huge number of Mormons that stay in because they're terrified of what will happen with their spouse, with their parents, with their kids, with their jobs, with their income, with their community if they leave. And so they just stay and just hide. But y' all didn't do that.

Margi Dehlin [02:43:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:43:37] How did you. And I want to now just kind of go right to parenting, but I'll just hit the big one. So you didn't want your kids to be put on the shame parade and. Or the shame treadmill, and that's why you took them out.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:43:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:43:50] So they wouldn't get on the word of wisdom, law of chastity, but you also would have in your brains the conditioning. What if your kids start smoking weed? What if your kids start drinking and getting a car wreck? What if your kids. What if your kids. What if your kids have sex? What if your kids have an unwanted pregnancy or get a sexually transmitted disease or have a teenage pregnancy? Like, if your Mormon brains are anything like my Mormon brain, that's immediately what you. What if they become drug addicts?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:44:19] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:44:19] So how did y' all deal both with your fears around what your kids might do, but also in dealing with those issues of sex and drugs and alcohol and honesty and integrity and morality without a church framework to scare your kids into, you know, doing the right thing?

Darian Rogers [02:44:41] We use the gen framework in this situation because I was. I was lousy in all these spaces. So, like, talking about sex. My dad didn't talk to me about it. His dad didn't talk.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:44:52] Like, I had a really funny comedian thing. We'll show you later about how he told his kid about sex. But every. It's.

Margi Dehlin [02:44:59] It's a hard.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:45:00] It's hard.

Margi Dehlin [02:45:01] It's hard.

Darian Rogers [02:45:01] Jennifer has always been Willing to take on a hard conversation. I don't like hard conversations and conflict. And so I like exit out, which is shitty. And. And you, you did a great job really talking to all our kids on. On about sex. Right. Is that fair?

John Dehlin [02:45:17] What'd you say?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:45:18] Well, I just set him down and I just was like, here's the thing. It's natural, it's normal. You're going to experience it. You're going to have feelings. It's got to be consensual. I was very, very, very much about consensual for you because I have boys. But I'm also like, you get to choose whether or not you want to too. Like, it's not everyone assumes guys want to. But like, no. Like, it needs to be consensual. No means no. Yes. Then no means no. Yes. Yes. Yes. No means no. Like just kind of all those conversations around that experience espress. Especially with what I experienced growing up, I was very, very clear that it's a beautiful thing when two people want it and the timing is right and it's beautiful, but it has to be both. And I talked about how just my experience with other guys who push me to like that are a little more controlling and make you feel like they're not going to like you if you don't like my middle school boyfriend who tried to do things, and I was like, no. And then you broke up with me the next next day. And I had the party at my house at the end of middle school, and he showed up with the other. His girl, another girl, and they made out in the pool house at my party.

John Dehlin [02:46:33] Not the good thing. What's the good thing?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:46:35] Yeah, so, you know, but like, you're just all those kinds of things of just then. Then that wasn't the right person, you know, so.

John Dehlin [02:46:42] But you. Y' all very okay with your kids having premarital sex, because that's a big. Even ex Mormons. Yeah. We were like, my kids can't have sex before marriage.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:46:52] I was 100% okay with it.

Darian Rogers [02:46:54] And we didn't want them to grow up with, like, shame around learning any of that. Like, I was, I was in essence, kind of jealous of my friends in high school that I knew that got to experience those things and they weren't like, shameful and sad and talking to bishops, it was like a change.

Margi Dehlin [02:47:10] It was like, developmentally appropriate. Yep.

Darian Rogers [02:47:13] Don't how to shame.

John Dehlin [02:47:14] How do you justify that? How did you come to that for their welfare? That it was a good or so for me.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:47:20] I. I'm a research person. Like I'm a fact based person. Like I have to. I feel like I. Here's all. Here's. Here's the info kind of earning my opinion. I gotta. Yeah. Here's the pros, here's the cons. So I. I studied books about sex and when the appropriate things that. Tons of stuff on that Natasha Helfer Parker.

Darian Rogers [02:47:40] Part of that.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:47:41] I'm not.

Margi Dehlin [02:47:41] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:47:42] Natasha was huge when she talked about masturbating. That it was what okay. And natural. And babies do it in the womb.

John Dehlin [02:47:50] Probably healthy.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:47:51] Yes. And very healthy. Funny story about that. But anyway, it's just. There's. Yeah. Just telling my kids that is natural and normal. That is okay. And there is no shame. And having. I mean, funny. Yeah. Very open.

John Dehlin [02:48:09] You told your kids it was okay to masturbate.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:48:11] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:48:11] And they were okay having that conversation.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:48:13] Very open. Well, I mean, squirmy. My daughter. No. Funny. My daughter no. My boys will like talk about everything. So I don't know what that's about. But yeah, she's just a little more private and they're a little more open. But. But yeah, just this is normal and natural. I did with sex say it needs to be at the right time. I would love it for you to be older. Where you're like talked about brain development and how everyone's different mentally. And some people can get really attached if you. You know from that. And like you take care. Whoever it is with, take care.

Margi Dehlin [02:48:51] Right.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:48:51] Period. The end.

Margi Dehlin [02:48:52] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:48:53] And it needs to be consensual. And so I was like, when you want to have sex, you have to come tell me. And if you can't tell me, then you're not ready.

Margi Dehlin [02:49:00] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:49:01] Period. And whoever that is that you're having sex with, are they telling their parents? Because if they can't tell their parents, they're not ready. So I was like, I want to be able to call the mom and be like, okay, this is happening. Have you talked to your daughter? I've talked to my son. Are we good? We're good. Like, it's just. Or no, I don't think my daughter's ready. So then I can call my son up and be like, hey, we're not doing this. Like just very. I just am. Open and honest conversations without judgment is just always the best way to go, in my humble opinion. And that's what I'm talking about. You're not fooling your kids. Anything I'm saying, they're hearing in the locker room.

Margi Dehlin [02:49:44] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:49:45] They've already heard it from the wrong source.

John Dehlin [02:49:47] So what about drugs and alcohol?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:49:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:49:50] Every. Mormon parents.

Darian Rogers [02:49:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:49:52] Nightmare. Right?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:49:52] You know, it's a bigger fear for you.

Darian Rogers [02:49:55] Yes, similar. I mean, similar. We kind of met each child, where they were at and kind of what, what their interest level was like.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:50:04] So Andrew had no interest going through.

Darian Rogers [02:50:07] Not, not, not. He's kind of waited till he got to college. Our daughter drank, but secretly at her friend's house, we thought she was great. I mean, she's still great. She's still great.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:50:17] No, but we didn't. But, but it was, was with. I know those parents and I know her group of friends and they're amazing and I love them. And I had, there's, there's an inkling, but she's just more private now. If I said, hey, were you. She'd be like, yes, but she's not going to come share.

Margi Dehlin [02:50:33] Yeah, yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:50:34] And that's okay. And if she's like, I'm not going to say, I don't feel like talking about it. That's okay too.

Margi Dehlin [02:50:39] Right.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:50:40] As long as you were.

Darian Rogers [02:50:42] And I'll say like, like I gotten over my own fears. So like I was always told that drinking, I would not be able to remember my name. I'm making horrible decisions. My whole life's going to fall apart.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:50:53] You're going to cheat on me, become an alcoholic?

Darian Rogers [02:50:56] Yeah, I drink. I'm like, okay. Still know who I am.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:50:59] Still, like, he's like, I can still walk in line.

Darian Rogers [02:51:02] I can still be okay. So like there is, there's.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:51:04] I still love you. I'm not wanting to cheat on you.

Darian Rogers [02:51:06] There is a healthy balance, you know, in our space. You know, weed is not legal here, but Delta 8 is. So like I've, I've done that too. Don't think it's, you know, I'm not encouraging to anyone, but I don't think it's that scary. I don't think it's scarier than alcohol.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:51:21] I think it's probably safer than alcohol.

Darian Rogers [02:51:22] Probably safer than alcohol in my perspective. So. So I had to overcome my own fears then to be able to talk to them about it. Does that make sense?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:51:32] And so, but each kid was different. Like Andrew was not interested at all. He was tennis, tennis, tennis, tennis and perfectly happy there in video games and his buddies.

Darian Rogers [02:51:43] But our youngest, very interested. Was interested in.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:51:47] Very curious.

Darian Rogers [02:51:48] You know, there are boys who are drinking at our house now for that

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:51:52] was hard for him.

Darian Rogers [02:51:53] Retired Mormon dad scares the shit out of me because I'm like, some kids die from like. So I'm Doing the. And I'm totally uncomfortable doing, like the check in and how are they doing? And we set up, like, explicit.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:52:08] All the parents. Like, we. It very like. Yeah, it's.

Darian Rogers [02:52:12] But really put us in. It's, it's. It is a little bit of a mind. You're like, this is not something I'm comfortable with, I've ever done. Like. And all of a sudden it's in my face.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:52:22] He couldn't sleep. He. He, like when they were here, he could, he could.

Darian Rogers [02:52:27] I'm not going to sleep until everything's

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:52:29] shut down, until everyone's safe. All the doors are locked. Locked. We always had curfew. We came in. I made all of them talk to me. We. I am best. I mean, my kids, friends. I'm like their mom. So you do something wrong in my house, I'm going to call you out. Absolutely. That's not acceptable here. Don't do that again. I love you. Yeah, we're not doing that.

Margi Dehlin [02:52:48] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:52:49] You want to come back? Don't do that. So very open and honest. And I'd say to their faces, like, respectful. This isn't. This is. You want to act like an adult. Act like an adult and be accountable. And also, if you get busted, you better own it.

Darian Rogers [02:53:04] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:53:05] Whatever choices you make, you own the good and the bad. You don't get to just own the good. We're not doing that.

Darian Rogers [02:53:11] And Jennifer, because her grandfather was. Was an alcoholic. You've always talked about addiction and how to the family, always be careful and be aware and all those things.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:53:20] It runs in our history. It runs in our blood, I think.

Darian Rogers [02:53:23] Helpful.

Margi Dehlin [02:53:23] Yeah. If we were going to kind of lean in a little, even more to rebuilding. I'm hearing some of the themes now. Shifts. Right. Our curiosity. Allowing your children to make choices for themselves, steer their own ship. Right. In life. A lot of communication and education. Ongoing kind of when it comes to teenagers, the value of exploring. Not seeing it as a negative, a unilaterally negative, scary thing, but that there's real value in exploring. Would you add anything to that? Am I missing anything crucial? I was thinking about your kids when it came to. I think we had mentioned, you know, their vocations, what their paths, what they've chosen to do now. Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:54:15] Yeah. So. So one thing I would say is, again, like, what did you. If you experience. So you drank for the first time. Okay. How was it? What did you experience? What was it like? What did it feel like? How much did you have? Did you notice anybody else? Did anybody overdo it? How did everybody feel about that guy?

Margi Dehlin [02:54:36] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:54:36] You know, or that girl? Nobody likes the sloppy drunk. Yeah, nobody. So let's not do that. Like just very open, honest conversation, casual. Have a glass. Have one glass. We're done. Like you're curious if it's a. Be an adult. You're at, like, do it. Do it like proper. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:55:00] Wonderful. Okay. And I thought we could also touch a little bit on. I think it's very. It's normal to have it be part of the experience of shifting away from religion to feel maybe, let's just say a loss of ritual of what I'm thinking of Brit Hartley right now and how she talks about how grounding rituals can be and how it can bring meaning into your world to have kind of. And I know you've done some of that. Would you like to share?

John Dehlin [02:55:34] And traditions, you mean?

Margi Dehlin [02:55:35] Yeah, Traditions and rituals, family culture. So it can be.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:55:38] Yep.

Margi Dehlin [02:55:39] Anything from daily, but it can also be like real moments. And I know you've done things particularly with regard to, like, something in place of patriarchal blessings. So do you want to share some of that?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:55:51] Sure. Yeah. So we did. We did replace. So we didn't just leave and go empty. We certainly, you know, replaced church with hiking or church with family time or church with God. Like, it. Like, those are still very intentional, carved out sacred space. But it's on our terms, if that makes any sense. And as a family. So there's that. One thing we also did is we wanted our kids intentionally to feel like they could share anything and have an open home. So all feelings, anger, that's.

Margi Dehlin [02:56:25] That's big.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:56:26] Rage, sadness.

Margi Dehlin [02:56:28] Yep.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:56:29] You are allowed to feel all your feelings here, and you will not be shamed for it. So that was one. One thing we started with, like, just like swear. We were like, you know what? We want you to be yourselves. And so you can swear in our house. Open swear house.

Margi Dehlin [02:56:45] Open swear.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:56:46] Open swear. Open swearing. Home. Like, but. But if you're doing it out, out in the out world and you get like, learn from your lessons. Like, know who you can and who you can't. Like, you know, but like, here you're safe. So we. And then my kids called me in eventually and were like, hey, mom, you're taking that swearing thing a little too far. You know, I embarrassed them. I started swearing too much. So there was that. And then the patriarchal thing is one of the most beautiful things I did. And it just. It happens just organically. If you are open and curious and seeking, it will. You'll find it. You'll find it, and it'll. You'll. You'll. You would never guess where you're gonna find it on a hike. You'll find it. But anyway, one of my best girlfriends. Known her since high school. She's an artist, and she's an empath, and she, like, her art is spiritual. It's a ritual how she does it. And I. You know, I just would see her art, and she just does it. She works as a creative director at a nursing home. Okay. So she does. Just does art with all these things, and she always puts meaning behind everything. She's one of my friends that if you call her and you're angry, she's like, do you need to go break plates? Let's go break plates. She's also my friend that says you're angry. It's okay. I don't fear you.

Margi Dehlin [02:58:10] Mm. Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:58:12] Yeah. Which is beautiful.

John Dehlin [02:58:15] Said no Mormon leader ever, right?

Margi Dehlin [02:58:16] I was gonna say Mormon parent.

Darian Rogers [02:58:19] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:58:20] Or Mormon parent. You are angry. I'm not going anywhere. I don't fear you.

John Dehlin [02:58:25] And Mormonism. Anger is of the devil.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:58:28] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:58:29] Contentions of the devil.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:58:30] Yeah. And I. To experience that, I just want to give that to people. Like, if you are angry, come see me, because I got you. But, yeah. And so she's an artist. So I went to her, and I was like, I. I. And if you can see my house, everything is around. Cozy, comfort, life, giving it. There are. There's evidence of the. Of my relationships in. In every corner. And that's what it's about.

Margi Dehlin [02:59:01] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [02:59:02] Period. But anyway, so what was I saying? The art. And so she's an artist. So I asked her to do a painting of each one of my kids. I had. It's their playroom, their music room where they all hang out. And I had a specific wall. It's above a keyboard, and I had the exact size. And so I was like, here's the measurements. Here's the size. One for each of my kids. Have at it. And she was like, okay, I'm gonna do this, and I'm gonna take it real serious. She came over and interviewed each of my children for hours. Tell me what you love. Tell me what makes you tick. Tell me about your relationship with your parents. Where. Where do you feel safe? Where. What are you afraid of? What are your. I mean, just all kind of like what you and John do, Like, just pulling out the intricacies. And then months go by. I hear nothing. And then she calls me and is like, so I've got your art. And she's Married to a guy that we went to high. I also went to high school with. And Dan is like, oh, Jen, by the way, I'm coming for this presentation because I would not miss it for the world. Like, I. This is. This is going to be special. So when Dan said that, I was like, you know what? I'm going to invite my mom and dad over. I think this was something that they would really love, because I also. It's. It's letting them see into my world and how beautiful it is and seeing that I am creating those moments that they gave me within Mormonism. But I am. I'm doing that. I want them to see it right. I am taking their example, and I'm making it mine. And so she came over and presented. Stood right here in front of our fireplace and held up the piece of art and had a handwritten page, three or four pages, beautifully written about the process of the art and why she did what she did. And my kids have never felt more seen or heard. And it's a piece of art that they actually can take with them. And that letter.

Margi Dehlin [03:01:09] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:01:09] For the rest of their lives. Like, when I die. That.

Margi Dehlin [03:01:14] You're right.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:01:15] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:01:15] Right.

John Dehlin [03:01:18] So for the parent, that's like, but if I leave the church, my kids are gonna turn out bad. Right. Can you talk about each of your kids? Not. Not that any kid. There's. The story's never over. We don't expect perfection. We're not holding your kids out as role models. But for the parent that's terrified that if they leave the church, their kids won't amount to anything. Can you talk about each of your kids just briefly, and what they're up to and how, you know, you're proud of them and how they were able to become something you're proud of without religion? Sure.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:01:54] I'll let you go.

Margi Dehlin [03:01:55] We can celebrate them.

Darian Rogers [03:01:56] Oh, boy. No, Andrew.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:02:00] Top to bottom.

Darian Rogers [03:02:01] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:02:02] Okay.

Darian Rogers [03:02:02] No, the top to bottom. And your oldest was. Is a tennis player. I guess he's a retired tennis player at this profession. Yeah, I'll get there. So he got to play four years at Tennessee in. In that time frame, their team went from the bottom of the SEC to the top. And that when he finished the senior, you got to play in the final four of the NCAA Championship.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:02:23] I do want to say he was a walk on.

Darian Rogers [03:02:25] He was a walk on like his mother.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:02:27] Yeah, he was a walk on. And I told him, it's going to be measured. I was so honest, and I was like, you're going to be the scum get ready.

Margi Dehlin [03:02:36] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:02:36] And he was like, I, I. I'm not afraid, Mom. Yeah, I can do this. Yeah.

Darian Rogers [03:02:43] And. And one of the things we.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:02:45] And he was team captain and a leader, and like, like, defied all odds. Get out of your kid's way. That's all I have to say in.

Darian Rogers [03:02:54] In an amazing experience that most likely, as if we were still Mormon, would not have supported. Like, I probably would not have supported him going to Tennessee because that's a party school and he's going to become an addict and he's never going to survive. And, and frankly, when we sent him to his freshman year, we were a little. Both scared because he's a Mormon kid.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:03:14] Like, he was a Mormon.

Darian Rogers [03:03:15] He was. He wasn't Mormon, but he was, like, very naive.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:03:19] He belonged at byu.

Darian Rogers [03:03:21] BYU was like, a better fit freshman year, mentally, for us. And then he got a graduate year at Pepperdine to play tennis there. So one of the other things we did for missions is we kind of allow our kids. We're like, hey, if you want a gap year, we'll give it to you, as long as you're not on a mission. But. So he played professionally for a year and traveled all over and got to kind of get that experience, see the world. And now he's setting screenwriting at Pepper Dine.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:03:54] He was in a movie.

Darian Rogers [03:03:55] He was.

John Dehlin [03:03:55] The New Zend movie.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:03:56] He was in. He's in Challengers.

Darian Rogers [03:03:58] He's in Challengers. He's got three minutes of fame.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:04:01] He does. I. I think it's more than that.

Darian Rogers [03:04:03] More than that.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:04:03] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, like, that never would have happened.

Margi Dehlin [03:04:08] Right.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:04:08] Ever in a million years.

John Dehlin [03:04:09] And can I be clear? The point isn't that.

Darian Rogers [03:04:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:04:12] That he made achievements.

Margi Dehlin [03:04:14] That's right. The point is he followed what.

John Dehlin [03:04:17] What he loved.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:04:17] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:04:18] Okay. I just want to make that clear.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:04:20] Passion, like, get out of their way

Margi Dehlin [03:04:22] and creativity and all of it.

Darian Rogers [03:04:24] Yeah. Because, like, I remember when we were doing recruiting and they were talking, like, what do you want to study? He's like, English. I was like, oh, my gosh. In my mind, I'm like, that's. That's another plan A. You're supposed to have a plan B. Right. Like something you can fall back on and similar screenwriting as a Mormon. That one's a hard thing to, like,

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:04:42] support because you're in Hollywood and it's scary and it's unsafe and they don't. There's drink, sex, drugs, and rock and roll and be afraid. Yeah.

Life, Creativity, and Thriving After Mormonism

Darian Rogers [03:04:52] When you go on the other side of kind of Mormonism, and you, in my view, you're like, all right, you got one life to live. What do you want to do with it?

Margi Dehlin [03:05:00] Yeah.

Darian Rogers [03:05:01] And if you can find something passionately that you want to do and make any kind of a career, I don't care. Who cares if it's high, low, like, if you can just make a living doing what you want to do, that's amazing.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:05:14] That's enough.

Darian Rogers [03:05:15] That's what I want.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:05:15] That's enough.

Darian Rogers [03:05:16] And so you want to talk about Alexand?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:05:19] Yeah. Alexanne was our. Oh, my God. The sweetest little butterfly. Just an angel, but just creative. From the minute she came out of my body, she's just. It. L. She lives in another world. Like, she's always lived in fairy tale land. And. And her younger brother Wyatt just absolutely idolized her. She. She's just the most loving, kind, gracious soul. And so she was bullied really horrendously, pretty much all of her childhood. And I think it's because she's so kind, like, easy target.

John Dehlin [03:05:57] And girls thrive.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:05:59] Yeah. And she always want. Tried to. She's always tried to get small. Right. Don't notice me. Don't notice me. And got bullied anyway. So it's an interesting. Yeah, but. But, yeah. So singer, songwriter, like. Like, the creative arts is. That was where she felt safe. And she could be a nerd and she could be silly and funny and dumb.

Margi Dehlin [03:06:24] Yep.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:06:24] And it all works there. It works there. And so, yeah, that's her. And so she went. We just got out of her way, same thing. And she's graduating in Belmont with a singer songwriter degree and music business, which is so interesting. That piece of control. Certainty. And control kills creativity, too. Curiosity. Creativity is curiosity. Right. So it's so interesting that when you remove that certainty and control, where your kids go, the creative arts, there's got to be some kind of connection there, in my opinion. So you want to talk Wyatt?

Darian Rogers [03:07:08] Yeah. And then our. Then our youngest. I'll kind of give you the longer story. When he was. When he was little, he had a hard time speaking. He spoke like Yoda. Like, his words. Words would go in the wrong spot, and his pronunciation was a challenge. Like you. He had a best friend, and he'd come to tell you something like, what do you want? You're like, I don't understand. And his friend would say he'd like a glass of milk because they can communicate, but like.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:07:35] Like the two year olds know what they're saying to each other. But.

Darian Rogers [03:07:37] And so he. He hated getting pulled out for, like, speech therapy.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:07:43] And occupational therapy and ate all the things.

Darian Rogers [03:07:46] By chance, his sister was doing acting and the musical theater thing.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:07:49] And.

Darian Rogers [03:07:50] And the lady was like, hey, would you be interested, Wyatt? And he was like, there's a stage I'm in.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:07:56] But he couldn't speak. So this is what you need to know. Like, he could not speak. Like you couldn't understand a word out of his mouth. So we were shocked because he is our skeptical, afraid kid. But then the stage, for some reason he was like, yeah, I want to do that. And so I told the. It was Act 2. Sandra Morton, still to this day, cannot thank her enough. And she was like, I don't care if you can't understand him. I don't care. He's a child. And this will be good for him because he was on my lap with a blankie, sucking his thumb and she saw him with me every day. And so she like snatched him up and said, hey, come here. This place is safe. This is a safe playground.

Darian Rogers [03:08:43] But musical theater ended up being like his speech therapy. Like the first time he got a solo, we listened to it. We're like, he was totally into it, but I didn't understand anything.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:08:53] No, but he hit every note.

Darian Rogers [03:08:54] He hit every note.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:08:55] He hit every note, plain as day. And it was like incredible. Like it was just everyone bald in the audience, couldn't understand a word. But there's this kid up there just giving it his all. All in feeling himself, living his best life, getting the audience to laugh.

Margi Dehlin [03:09:15] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:09:16] And just, it was just the most beautiful. As a parent, you're just like, okay, this is the path we're on. Like, this is where he's going to find himself.

Darian Rogers [03:09:25] Then two years later he gets a solo and you can understand everything. And now as parents, we're like crying, sobbing, like, oh my gosh, this has been the best kind of therapy. And so, and so he's, he's, he's chasing the acting world.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:09:37] Well, he got, at age 10, he got cast as Michael in Elf, the musical National Broadway. So we did a national Broadway tour with him at 10, which as a Mormon family, leaving my senior and my freshman to take our youngest on tour. And I'm gone gonzo on a bus with 20 somethings. And I've got a 10 year old. And I remember my dad going, this isn't safe. Like, you know what happens in this industry, you know, being very. Starting with fear.

Margi Dehlin [03:10:14] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:10:15] But then seeing my dad, see my son on stage with thousands of people, I mean, the pride, the joy, like there's not a thing they would miss. They even went to see Challengers just because Andrew was in it. And they wouldn't leave the theater till the credits came up and they could see, see his name. So it's interesting because they've also shifted.

Margi Dehlin [03:10:36] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:10:37] They, they've also seen the beauty of my kids.

Margi Dehlin [03:10:43] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:10:44] Yeah.

Darian Rogers [03:10:44] One, one other thing from that is they took us on a journey where you, where you meet other people in communities.

Margi Dehlin [03:10:54] Right. Yes.

Darian Rogers [03:10:57] I don't know. I'm. Emotionally. He's speaking.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:10:59] Well, I know because we didn't have anybody.

Darian Rogers [03:11:02] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:11:03] So at the time I left for tour for Wyatt, I had a group of friends that completely shut me out, closed me off. Done.

Margi Dehlin [03:11:14] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:11:15] Like literally came back from tour and had nobody. And. And in addition with the tension with my family, trying to, you know, the drill. So I go on tour with these 20 year olds who it's their first national Broadway tour and I am empty and have nothing, but I'm like, I find purpose. There's these 20 somethings. One of the girls had just lost her mother literally a week prior to accepting this gig. So she enters this tour and I'm here and I'm, I am like, do you know, it's like wounded bird, wounded bird. You can just see each other. And we just collected each other. And these kids, they called me, I'm Mama Jen. Basically I was on, I was the mom on tour. They were in our room. We made great, incredible memories. They mentored my child, they helped raised my son. These are gay men who, who are still the most influential people in his life. And women, really strong women. Like, how cool is that? These are the most influential people in my son's lives. They love him. He, you know, one just came in town to do Frozen. He plays the, ah, who's dead? The dwarf. The troll. He plays the head troll. Well, he was on Nat Wyatt's first national Broadway tour. He took Wyatt in. He was like, you were me when I was your age. I got you. He pulled me onto the side stage. I was in the back. He pulled me in and let me watch my son where I shouldn't have been. He was like, mama, you're not missing this. So it's like he saw me but didn't know really what was going on, had no idea. And what this has done, this, this podcast, but this Thrive event, it is about us reaching out. We. This has given us John and Margi, you have given us the opportunity to reach out to all those people who

Darian Rogers [03:13:28] showed up,

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:13:31] didn't know, but they sensed it. They sensed It. And we all found each other, and it's gonna happen to the people that are coming to this event. Like, this will happen for them if they remain open and curious and vulnerable. And it doesn't need to be a Mormon. It can be a cash register lady who just sees you and says, hey, I mean, this has happened to me. Hey. I can sense you're having a hard day. And the thing is, when you're going through that, you sense it, and you see those people and you give them what they need. You. You open the door and you say hello. Like, you see it.

Margi Dehlin [03:14:22] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:14:23] You can see it. And so, yeah, this. This whole thing has given us the opportunity to say thank you. We have reached out to all. All of them and invited them all to come for this weekend and just said thank you for catching us.

Margi Dehlin [03:14:36] Yes.

Darian Rogers [03:14:37] Yeah, it. It's expanded our village for our kids in a wonderful way.

Margi Dehlin [03:14:45] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:14:47] Like the. The relationships. And we never would have had.

Darian Rogers [03:14:52] Yeah. Ever in their authentic relationship. It's not like. It's not like, hey, this is built on, we're workout friends. Or you're. We're just friends because we're church. It's like, authentically, I care about you.

Margi Dehlin [03:15:04] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:15:04] Yeah.

Darian Rogers [03:15:04] It's. It's a deeper. You know, in some ways, it's a deeper relationship than sometimes you had in Mormonism, which was more surface. You know, it's. It's. It's been. It's been fun.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:15:16] They don't leave you when you. They don't fear you. They don't leave you when you're struggling. And Mormons do. It's fear. I get it. I know it. But they don't leave you.

John Dehlin [03:15:38] So my final question. The church would teach you that wickedness never was happiness, and the biggest wickedness would be leaving the church. Can you just tell the audience if you're happy and if so, how your life has improved after leaving the church?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:15:54] Well, I just want to say you're seeing us on the other side.

Margi Dehlin [03:15:57] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:15:58] So the purpose of this was to give hope, but I do not want to diminish the fact that it was hell. So you. Whoever is going through, like, where we were 20 years ago or 15 years ago, it's hell. It is hard. You will not be your best self. Your marriage will struggle. Your relationship with your children will struggle. You will have a lot of apologizing to do when you get to the other sign. Likely unless you've listened to John and Margi better than we did. We kind of were experiencing it with you.

Margi Dehlin [03:16:35] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:16:37] Very parallel. But not in the public eye. But yeah, like I just think, yeah,

Darian Rogers [03:16:46] I would agree with you.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:16:47] You know, like it was a struggle.

Darian Rogers [03:16:49] If you are still in Mormonism or outside of Mormon, life's messy, right. We're all, we're all broken, we are all flawed. But can life be beautiful outside Mormonism? 100%.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:17:03] We're closer than we've ever been because it's open and authentic and it just

Darian Rogers [03:17:07] opens your world to, to I guess in some ways I call it the real world versus kind of this PG version of more like Mormon world. It's like go experience, go see everything. Go. You know, within limits of course, but like go touch it, go smell it, go, go, you know, go chase it.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:17:25] Learn from it, learn from it, learn

Darian Rogers [03:17:26] from it and experience it. Because you know, in, you know, there's a saying of you get two lives. The second one begins when you realize you only have one.

Margi Dehlin [03:17:35] Yep. So that's right.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:17:37] And I will say there was, there was like where our marriages really struggled. And one thing you change is required to stay in relationship with somebody for 31, 32 years. It's required. Yeah, it's required. So you can't fear it. If, and I will say it's worth it. Lean in. Like lean in, it's worth it. You loved that person once. Obviously, if it's not a healthy relationship, that's not what I'm talking about. But if it's healthy and if he is good and you are good, lean in and hang on and get to that other side. Because we are now empty nesters and now we just get to enjoy it and look and just watch. We're observers of our kids lives. It's like amazing to watch. Just watch. That's all I have to say. Don't lead, don't control, don't force. Witness, just witness.

Darian Rogers [03:18:39] Yeah, I would. And you touched on it earlier. The one thing I wish we would have done sooner would be like get there therapy.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:18:47] At least we waited too long.

Darian Rogers [03:18:48] I think, you know, you're like, I got rid of Mormons and I'm fine. And then you're not. Later on you're like, you're not. There's, you know, I think about the, the, you know, we talked about the chewed gum, but there was also the, the, the story about, hey, here's the board. And you nail, you put nails in the board. Right. And those are your mistakes. But repentance pulls the nails out. But there's still a hole in the board. Right, Right.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:19:18] Woodcock and paint over them.

Darian Rogers [03:19:19] What's the message. Yeah. I'm similar.

Margi Dehlin [03:19:22] Yeah.

Darian Rogers [03:19:22] But I can buy some putty, cover that up. You know, even leaving Mormonism like 15 years ago, there's still some conditioning.

Margi Dehlin [03:19:32] Yeah.

Darian Rogers [03:19:33] And. And there's holes in that board.

Margi Dehlin [03:19:37] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:19:37] And therapy helps you.

Darian Rogers [03:19:40] You're like, you're like, I thought it was done.

Margi Dehlin [03:19:42] Yeah.

Darian Rogers [03:19:43] But there's still, there's still some stuff I gotta get out.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:19:46] It's like vines. They're vines. And you cut them back and then, and then that you digress and you're like, that thought is unacceptable here anymore. This self hatred thing. We're not doing it. But it creeps back in.

Margi Dehlin [03:20:00] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:20:01] It really does.

Margi Dehlin [03:20:02] Yep. That's right. It requires ongoing tending in Mormons.

Darian Rogers [03:20:07] We're kind of at least just our parents generation really fear it. You know, they even go as a. It is.

Margi Dehlin [03:20:14] It.

Darian Rogers [03:20:14] Is it doing you any good?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:20:15] And you're like, well, they think that it's feeding you bad things. Yeah. They think therapy is filling your head with nonsense. And you're like, no, I feel healthy. It teaches boundaries and that's why it feels like nonsense. But when you've never had healthy boundaries.

Margi Dehlin [03:20:32] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:20:34] They don't feel good.

Margi Dehlin [03:20:34] Yeah. Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:20:36] Beautiful.

John Dehlin [03:20:37] Well, Darren and Jennifer Rogers, what an amazing thing. Three plus hours. Thank you for welcoming us into your home. Thank you for hosting Mormon Stories meetup this weekend. 150.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:20:50] Can't wait.

John Dehlin [03:20:51] Yeah. Folks around the region are going to get to know each other. The types of friends and community.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:20:57] We got you. We got you people.

John Dehlin [03:20:59] But thanks for sharing your story. Thanks for being vulnerable. Thanks to your children for the fact that they're going to have to live with the fact that she talked about them.

Margi Dehlin [03:21:07] We'll thank them ahead of time.

John Dehlin [03:21:09] I don't even know if they know what they're consenting to, but thanks to them anyway. Thanks to you. What a beautiful story. This is gonna help a lot of people. Did you have a final thing to say, sweetie?

Margi Dehlin [03:21:18] Just that we see you, we appreciate you, thank you for today. Thank you for sharing a bit of yourselves. And truly there were so many stories to tell. Right. And I think that's true of many of us. It could have been your marriage story. It could have been just so many stories. And we feel so lucky to have gotten this one.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:21:37] Thank you, guys. Thank you from the bottom of our hearts. Truly. It feels good to give back, doesn't it?

John Dehlin [03:21:43] Yeah. All right, thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories podcast. It's been great to have you. Email us with feedback, MormonStories gmail.com We always appreciate your donations. Go to MormonStories.org Click on the Donate button. We can't do this without your support. So if you want to become a supporter and allow us to keep doing this type of work, that's how you do it. Be good to each other, be kind to each other, and we'll see you all again soon, maybe even on location on another episode of the Long stories podcast. Take care, everybody.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:22:14] Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [03:22:38] This camera.

Darian Rogers [03:22:42] Sorry, Jen, you're not dancing.

Margi Dehlin [03:22:44] We are.

Darian Rogers [03:22:46] Got Darren's eye drops here.

Margi Dehlin [03:22:49] Yeah.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:22:51] For your fake tears.

Darian Rogers [03:22:52] He had y' all going.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:22:59] Money the lumify. I do.

Darian Rogers [03:23:02] I've always wanted to see one of these.

Margi Dehlin [03:23:04] I accidentally ripped one,

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:23:09] you know.

Darian Rogers [03:23:10] You know, it was a really. You know, Alexander is such a social butterfly and a fairy and she's just my rock. And Andrew's been a great leader, a fearless leader. A fearless leader and a good, athletic person. But, you know, my life is pretty chill. I like it. I love every second of it. I like to sing, I like to act. Hopefully we'll make that happen. Get on stage. Andrew beat me in challengers. So I saw him yesterday. He looked really good, by the way. You guys didn't see that, but I feel like I look awkward. No, you don't.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:23:49] No, you don't. You look like yourself. It looks like they just video. You don't look like you're acting at all, which I guess is a compliment.

Darian Rogers [03:23:56] No, no. He literally does not look like he's acting.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:23:58] No, he looks like he looks great. How do you look right now?

Darian Rogers [03:24:01] No, like, his blue eyes looked really, really good on the screen.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:24:05] It was dazzling.

Darian Rogers [03:24:06] Honestly. I think he should swap Mike Feist part. Honestly. Cut that. Don't want Mike to hear

John Dehlin [03:24:15] that.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:24:15] In case this goes viral.

Darian Rogers [03:24:16] Yeah, in case this goes. In case it goes viral.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:24:19] Yeah.

Darian Rogers [03:24:19] Right?

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:24:20] I mean, like, one out of ten would recommend listening. Or challengers.

Darian Rogers [03:24:26] Challengers or. I don't know. I'm just yapping. I'm a big yapper.

Jennifer Ellsworth Rogers [03:24:29] I would. I saw challengers. I don't know if my parents told you guys this, but I went to challengers with a group of girlfriends and my grandparents came and sat right in front of us. And there's like freaky things that happened that you should not watch with your grandparents. It was so terrible.

Darian Rogers [03:24:46] Oh, my gosh. And papa, who are like the most Mormon. Mormon cultured people on the planet. I did call them like a couple days ago and I was like, so what you guys think? And Mama K just started laughing hysterically. She was like, I don't know what I will want. Yeah, I was like. I was like, yeah. I am very excited you guys saw. Thanks, mom, for telling me what to do. Saw the movie in the first place because I didn't think they were gonna see it.

Margi Dehlin [03:25:19] Yeah, I thought that was awesome. You guys told them not to go?

Darian Rogers [03:25:22] No, I told them not to go. And then Papa called me, and he was like, I saw it. I got taught a lot of things in that movie. That's what he said. It's really funny.

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