Introduction and Guest Welcome

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 760

John Dehlin [00:00:28] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It's June 19, 2017. It's a little bit early in the morning, and we're very excited to be bringing you kind of a little bit of an extemporaneous interview.

John Dehlin [00:00:50] A couple days ago, Amy Grubbs and some of the OSF board members and I all noticed an article that was posted to the Internet called They can leave the church, but they can't leave the Church alone. And we noticed that it was gaining a lot of traction, that a lot of people resonated with the article. And the article was written by Bryn Thomas Gant, who has actually been on Mormon Transitions, Mormon Stories before.

John Dehlin [00:01:22] She was actually one of the first people, along with her husband Jared, that we interviewed about experiencing a Mormon religious transition. And it was great to have her. And so I recognized the little image there, and we thought it's such a common issue, it's such a common topic that we would go ahead and include it as part of the Mormon Stories, Mormon transitions kind of discussion. So this kind of fits both categories.

John Dehlin [00:01:52] But today, this early morning on a Monday, we're going to be doing a Facebook Live discussion with Bryn about the article. For those of you who are interested, we've posted a link to the article in the description. I'll have Amy maybe post a link to the article in the comments as well on the Facebook livestream. And what we hope to do is just have a discussion about this. I don't know if we call it a meme or stereotype or what exactly we should call it, but it's basically this idea that so many orthodox believing Mormons have that when people lose their faith in the church, they can't just sort of go on and build a happy, healthy, productive life, but instead they leave the church, but they can't leave it alone.

John Dehlin [00:02:48] I believe the original phrase was coined by Neal A. Maxwell. I don't know that for sure, but my memory is that he popularized that phrase. He was an apostle who really liked to write and whose prosecution, when I was a believey member, felt really poetic and scholarly.

John Dehlin [00:03:11] So I don't know, for those of you who remember Neal A. Maxwell, a little bit of a shout out to him. But that's going to be what our topic is today. And before we jump in, as always, we just want to make people aware of some of the events coming up, sponsored by the Open Stories Foundation. So we'll talk about them very briefly, July 7th and 8th. That's in about three weeks. We're going to be in Dallas, Texas, doing a full retreat there. We're going to have some swimming, we're going to have some barbecue, but most importantly, karaoke. No, not karaoke. Most importantly, we're going to be helping people, Mormons who are struggling to navigate a transition, whether they're staying in the church or trying to leave.

Open Stories Foundation and Community Events

John Dehlin [00:03:56] In these retreats and workshops, we talk about how to have healthy relationships, how to communicate more effectively with believing family and friends. We talk about spirituality or secular spirituality. We talk about mental health, healthy marriage, all sorts of things, how to find community. And that's what these events are about.

John Dehlin [00:04:16] So if you want to join us July 7th and 8th, please email us@mormonstoriesmail.com There are scholarships available to all these events. So. So if the price doesn't seem affordable to you for some reason, you can email us@mormonstoriesmail.com and request a scholarship. Send in a description of why you want to attend, what your needs are, and we'll find donors to make it so you can attend these events.

John Dehlin [00:04:44] So please, please do check these events out. We also August 11th and 12th are going to be doing our very first Mixed Faith Marriage retreat with Julie Dazevedo Hanks. She's a believing, active Mormon. She's a therapist in Salt Lake City. And this is an important event because we're going to have half believers, half non believers. No one's going to feel overwhelmed. And we're going to do our best to save marriages and keep families from being split up over these difficult issues. It's going to be two full days, so please check that out. August 11th through 12th mixed faith marriage retreat September 14th and 15th will be in Seattle, Washington.

John Dehlin [00:05:22] October 20th, 22nd in Sydney, Australia, November 9th through 10th in San Francisco Bay Area. And of course, if you're interested in going on a cruise, this will be the first cruise I have ever gone on. Our listeners have requested that we hold a cruise to have some fun and to do some healing. So October 2018, we'll be doing a cruise through the Bahamas and we love people to come.

John Dehlin [00:05:47] All the proceeds from these events go to support the Open Stories foundation, the staff, the mission. I don't get paid any extra money for these events. They're purely to support what we do with the nonprofit. And none of your donations to OSF are used to fund these events. These events are all self funded by the people who register. So anyway, we would love to have you come, we would love to have you attend and we're grateful to everyone who donates to the Open Stories foundation that makes these podcasts and these events possible.

John Dehlin [00:06:26] Just one more thing about that. I'll just say that, you know, it's one thing to deconstruct one's testimony, but as the article that we're going to be discussing today really helps illustrate, it's a whole other thing to build a new life after you've decided that Mormon orthodoxy doesn't work for you. And whether that's in the church or out of the church, the Open Stories foundation exists to help people through that difficult transition.

John Dehlin [00:06:55] And so we feel like it would be derelict in our duties to just be a part of people's faith deconstruction. We feel like it's really important to also be a part of helping people build healthy, happy lives and relationships. And so that's what we're about. So if you support the Open Stories foundation, if you love these podcasts, if you love these events, please consider donating a monthly donation of 10 or $25 a month or whatever you can afford.

John Dehlin [00:07:23] We're fully transparent in our finances to the extent that the law requires. And we even go above and beyond that. We've been transparent since the beginning and we're going to always be transparent. And your support is what makes it all possible.

John Dehlin [00:07:38] So thanks for your patience as we talk about some of that business. And now, without any further ado, we are going to welcome to the show Bryn Thomas Grant. Bryn is an attorney. Bryn is a mother of two children. She's married to Jared Gant, who is a photographer, a professional photographer. She lives in Colorado. Bryn, welcome back to Mormon Stories. Mormon transitions. It's so great to have you.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:08:10] Thanks. Good to be here.

John Dehlin [00:08:12] Tell us a little bit about your background. Just what did I miss in your bio that I should mention?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:08:18] Well, you mentioned Jerry. You know, we met in high school. We've been together long time. We've been married 10 years and we have two kids. We have one six year old girl who's crazy and hyper and excited about everything and very, very passionate. And then we have one almost two year old boy who's very, very, very calm and sweet. So they're awesome. Yeah, we live in Colorado. We've been here since 2013 and we love it here. Yeah, I mean, that's us. We, you know, Jared's a wedding photographer, probably one of the top 10 in the country, I think. And I am an attorney for pay, but other things for not pay.

John Dehlin [00:09:01] Jared, you say he's one of the top 10 photographers in the country.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:09:04] I think so. Wedding photographers.

John Dehlin [00:09:07] Wedding photographers.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:09:09] Clearly, I'm a little bit biased, but okay. No, he's very, very good.

John Dehlin [00:09:13] All right. Well, it's great to, it's great to have you back, Bryn.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:09:17] Thanks.

John Dehlin [00:09:18] We have, I didn't know what type of reception we'd have, but we have 107 people right now connected to Facebook Live. And that's exciting. And one of the reasons we do this on Facebook Live is to get feedback from our listeners. We think these discussions are much more rich when people can contribute and collaborate real time. And so we want to encourage the. Those of you who are joining us on Facebook Live, check out the article by Bryn. You can click on it in the description or in the comments. Read through it if you haven't already. And what we would love is to have people actually contribute questions or comments or stories to this discussion.

John Dehlin [00:10:08] And what I'll do is I will read those comments and questions as we go and incorporate them in. Julie's joining us. Joyce. Hans, I think Hans Mattson is joining us. Chelsea. Chelsea says she loved your article, Bryn. I said, David Bockavoy joining.

John Dehlin [00:10:32] Someone said the light is distracting so I may close my blinds. That's good to know. Logan says this is an important topic. And Patricia is joining us from Colorado. All right, so Bryn, to begin in this discussion, why don't we start a little bit with kind of talk a minute about your commitment to the church and what it meant to you before you. Before kind of things went wrong. Just talk about what the church meant to you.

Growing Up Deeply Committed to the Church

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:11:05] Well, it's best if I start out early then because I think, you know, you talk about the Nephi syndrome, I think I had that to the nth degree. I was the youngest of eight kids. And growing up I was the only, I recall being really the only super orthodox believing kid in my family. My parents were very active, but all my siblings would, you know, whine about going to church. They didn't want to go. We had to give them incentives to make them go. And I was one of those that I remember as a probably six year old thinking I will go every Sunday for the rest of my life.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:11:40] Like, it's just sort of dawned on me like, this is something I will do forever. And I don't know if I took it for granted a little bit, but I grew and grew in my testimony sort of in a very different way than I think a lot of people do. And I was upset by that often. And what I mean by a different way is it was very logical. I didn't have a lot of, like, experiences where something really sort of supernatural happened to me. And so when I was annoyed with that, I would talk to my mom about it, and I remember her just sort of comforting me, saying, don't worry about it.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:12:17] You know, your testimony is something that you just always had. So I sort of took that and ran with it. And I. But then I remember as like a 9 or 10 year old reading the Book of Mormon all the way through for the first time, and I tried that promise and nothing happened.

John Dehlin [00:12:32] How old, how old were you?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:12:34] I think I was nine.

John Dehlin [00:12:35] Wow, that's young. That is super young.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:12:38] Yeah, I. I didn't realize that at the time because, you know, as a family, we had read probably three times the Book of Mormon together at that point.

John Dehlin [00:12:47] What state, what state were you raised in?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:12:49] Utah.

John Dehlin [00:12:49] Okay.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:12:50] Utah county in Orem.

John Dehlin [00:12:51] Okay.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:12:52] So. But I read it and I tried this Moroni's promise, and I was like, I'm sure I have the hope. Like. Like, I know I want this to be true. And I sure. I'm sure I'm acting on the things I need to be acting on. So what's going on? Like, why am I not feeling anything? So again, I talked to my mom and she comforted me, which at the time was very helpful. You know, she said, everybody gets their testimony differently, and if you. It's not going to feel like a stark contrast for you because you've always believed it. So I was like, okay, that makes sense anyway.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:13:22] But, but so I took that and I did all the things that I. I was maybe a little more black and white than I should have been. I was like. I fell off the bandwagon of scripture reading for a little bit, but I started in seventh grade and I read every day. I didn't miss a single day until about a year and a half ago.

John Dehlin [00:13:42] Oh, my goodness. That is amazing.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:13:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:46] I mean, that's a level of scrupulosity that I think is not. Not even in, you know, not even, I don't know, in the 95th percentile. It's got to be in the 99th percentile.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:13:56] I mean, I read the Old Testament, so there you go.

John Dehlin [00:13:59] Wow. Yeah. So you read the Book of Mormon every day for what, 15, 20 years?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:14:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:08] That's amazing.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:14:09] That, and I mean, not just the Book of Mormon. I went through all the scriptures and went to church every week. I read the conference edition of the, of the Ensign after watching all of conference the month that it came out. I read the other Ensign articles every month. I mean, I went. I participated in everything. I fasted, all of it.

John Dehlin [00:14:32] Okay, so anything. Anything noteworthy about your sort of teenage years or college years that are important part of this whole story?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:14:43] Probably, yeah. Because so when I talk in my. In the little thing I wrote, I talk about some of the guilt that people feel that they didn't need to feel. And I did, you know, as. So let me back up a little bit because there's a little bit of a precursor.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:15:01] And so I was the victim of an attempted sex assault as a kid by a stranger. And that painted. I didn't go to therapy for it. And so I ended up sort of making my own sense of it. And that painted my sexuality in, like, junior high and high school. And so I was very much wanting sexual attention because I felt sort of a connection to it being, in a way, to show that you were loved.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:15:27] And at the same time, I was trying to be very, very lds. And so the first part of those high school years and junior high years being sort of torn religiously was when people started asking me out before I was 16. And so I remember sort of reasoning to myself, well, is going out with someone really the same as dating someone? And I knew it was semantics and it was really the same thing, but I kind of tried to justify it. So I had a little boyfriend in eighth grade. We didn't really do anything sexually. And then I had a couple other boyfriends. And then I met Jared, and we tried real hard to be great. We were pretty dang chaste.

John Dehlin [00:16:02] But in high school, okay.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:16:05] Yeah. I mean, he went to junior high with me.

John Dehlin [00:16:08] Wow.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:16:08] I always joke because he circled in my yearbook. I highlighted him, and I think I wrote hot over his name.

John Dehlin [00:16:13] Nice.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:16:14] But that's. That was like seventh grade. And so we started dating more in end of. No, 11th grade. Anyway, so. But his mind, his relationship was really a lot of guilt for me. Lots and lots of guilt. Especially because he seemed to be more stalwart than I was. And so to me, that was backward and it was all wrong. And, like, I just felt real bad about it. And I remember any time he and I kind of got carried away, we'd stop and we'd pray together. We were that annoying couple that, like, wouldn't hang out with people that would swear. Anyway, so lots and lots of guilt from that. That was the only kind of derailing part of it. And I. I got so depressed that I did get into, like, a really bad clinical depression.

John Dehlin [00:17:02] But around what age? Around what age?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:17:05] So middle of 11th grade through 12th grade.

John Dehlin [00:17:12] And did you have ways to kind of self medicate that depression? What were the ways that you coped?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:17:18] I mean, Jared was the way I coped, unfortunately. So it was sort of paradoxical there. Yeah. I mean, for as far as coping, like, we would just talk things out.

John Dehlin [00:17:31] Okay, that sounds healthy. Okay, so you got clinically depressed 11th to 12th grade. How did you. How'd you get out of that? Or what happened?

Teen Years, Depression, and Early Relationships

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:17:43] So Jared left on his mission, and well, before that, I went out to visit him. He lived in Florida. His dad did. So he was here during the school years, and he was there in the summer, and I'd gone out the previous summer for several weeks. And then I went out 12th grade, summer while he was getting ready for mission. And he went on, like, a mission prep camp thing and left me at home, at his home for like a day and a half. And I was super duper introverted, very, very shy. So I had a hard time kind of chatting with his stepmom. So Instead I read 7 Habits of Highly Effective Teens, which actually was very helpful. I thought.

John Dehlin [00:18:21] That's a great book. Yeah.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:18:23] Yeah. So I ended up just sort of little by little, you know, when you're depressed, the hardest thing in the world is to, like, get out of bed and, like, do something. So I would just try very small things, like, I'm gonna wake up today. I'm gonna make a breakfast that's not cereal. And it. And it felt empowering. And it kind of reminded me about what I liked about life. Right. I'd go rent a new movie, which I didn't do often because I was so stingy about what I was allowed to watch. And it would be very entertaining to me. That would make me feel like, okay, there is color in life.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:18:55] There is. There's things in life that are worth living for, you know? So little by little, I kind of followed the steps in that book. Tried to be a little bit productive each day. And I think as I started doing that more and got out into the community more, I started college. That helped.

John Dehlin [00:19:11] And you associate that depression with the guilt you felt for sometimes, you know, being more romantic with Jared than what the church allowed.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:19:22] I do. I think there's always. It's multifaceted for anybody. Sure, A lot of it was issues with sleep, but even the issues with sleep were also caused by some of the guilt. But, yeah, I mean, that was the number one thing that was always on my mind. Like, I'm becoming the thing that I hated. I sort of compared myself to this, to like the abuse that I'd suffered before, and I was like, I'm becoming the thing that's, you know, tempting Jared or, you know, bringing him down or whatever. So, yeah, that was hard. Hard.

John Dehlin [00:19:52] And the way that the messages the church sends to young women about, quote, the law of chastity, put really do put an extra burden on the female, don't they?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:20:04] I mean, I don't know if it's always on purpose, but I know that church members spread around things that make you feel that way. For sure. I mean, I remember thinking in junior high that it was a doctrine that if you purposefully tempted somebody and they had a bad thought, that it was your fault, not theirs. Like it was your.

John Dehlin [00:20:23] The female's thought it was the female's fault. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a lot of pressure, especially when you're so intense about the church being true and trying to live it. And I. And, you know, I'm guessing you guys weren't going crazy. It was probably just normal teen stuff, right?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:20:41] Yeah, I mean, we were. We. We married in the temple and we were worthy of that. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:50] Right. Okay, so. So Jared goes on his mission. What else about your story do you want to talk about before things started unraveling?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:21:01] I mean, I told you, I'm an open. I'm an open library, so there's. There's so much to say. I don't know. I mean, if you have something specific you want.

John Dehlin [00:21:08] So you went to. Did you go to college while he was on his mission or.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:21:11] I did. Yeah. So we stayed together. We fasted and prayed about it to decide whether it was the right decision to stay together while he was on. And I did decide that. And so I went to college. I was really non traditional. I should say that some of my dates in my childhood are a little mixed up because I didn't go to a school with grades, grade levels, and we didn't have the kinds of assignments where you're writing the date each day. And so I was age mixing in a lot of my childhood.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:21:46] So to get into college, because I had not really gone full time to high school or anything, I didn't graduate from high school. I just went to a summer semester. So I applied to BYU as a summer as a homeschool student, and then gave them my transcripts, explained why some of my classes were not the best grades ever because I hadn't cared about them in high school. And then after that semester, then I went full time to byu. I got in full time. So that's What I was doing the first year of, of him being gone, and then I continued with, with college and just, you know, making friends and specifically not dating anybody else until he got back.

John Dehlin [00:22:27] Okay, checking, checking in with, with our listeners on the topic of depression. Logan writes, people say, just do something to make yourself happy. When, I guess when he was depressed. And he says, sometimes I would consider it an accomplishment to, to want to wake up and get dressed. Do you relate to that? Logan or Bryn? Do you relate to Logan?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:22:51] Yeah, for sure. I think, like, I mean, you just, you just sit there and you kind of feel like the walls are closing on you. You don't want to do anything because nothing's worth doing. And to me, probably because I'm so logically wired, I got myself into all sorts of circles logically. I mean, I'm just sitting here thinking, what do we live for? Like, why, you know, people get excited about stuff, but why? And it was just on and on and on in my head. And yeah, it just made it hard to want to do anything. Everything seems silly.

John Dehlin [00:23:19] Yeah. Chris writes, love and guilt. Argh. Breaks my heart. That's what Chris writes. Logan also asks, what, if any, difference did you see while reading the Book of Mormon versus other scriptures? Was the Book of Mormon or other scripture reading helpful to you during the

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:23:35] time, like, during the time of this depression?

John Dehlin [00:23:40] Yeah. Did it help you or hurt you during the depression?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:23:43] It did, but not for the reason I think so many people think. I actually had a friend in junior high sort of have a dream and come and tell me about it. And that's what started my scripture reading. So when I say I didn't miss a day, I kind of attribute it to this friend that was like, hey, I see that you're starting to kind of want to be with these boys. And I had this, you know, dream about us, and I just want you to know I, you know, I want you to stay stalwart, basically. And so, you know, that's really what started my scripture reading.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:24:13] And what I think helped me with the depression was the habit, not necessarily always the words that I was reading, because sometimes they didn't really apply or I didn't understand them, but because I was doing a thing every day that felt responsible and that sort of kept me on a schedule, for me, that's what helped the most.

John Dehlin [00:24:35] Yeah. Yeah, totally makes sense. Oh, Aubrey asks, do you resent giving up that much time to reading the scriptures? That's a lot of time. She writes.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:24:48] I haven't thought about that being something I resented. But I mean, as far as it's the time frame. No, but the fact of, like, trying to make sense of the world through what I now see is like random scriptures. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:25:05] Right.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:25:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:08] So did your guilt alleviate when. When Jared was on his mission because you didn't have that stress kind of wearing. Wearing down on you?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:25:17] Yes, absolutely. Initially it was. I felt bad because I felt like he had been the strong one. And so I never had the chance to be the strong one again. And now it was just by default that I was being strong. And so I didn't feel real great about that. But that soon passed and I had two years of us specifically trying real hard to grow at the same spiritual speed. And so I was really diving into. I mean, I read the Book of Mormon like, three times in that year. I read Isaiah with, like, my little Isaiah companion. And so, yeah, that felt better.

John Dehlin [00:25:53] Did you. How much did you date again while he was gone?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:25:56] I didn't.

John Dehlin [00:25:57] Didn't date. You just put yourself in cold storage this Saturday Warrior, Saturday's warrior calls it.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:26:02] I got tricked into two dates where someone was like, hey, do you want to come and hang out with my friends? And what he meant was, my friend and my friend's girlfriend, and I'll pay for you, but other than that, no.

John Dehlin [00:26:14] Did you confess your sins to your bishop?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:26:17] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:26:18] How did that go?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:26:20] Not great. I mean, I think we. I think we did it twice. Like, we confessed twice. Which. The first thing is as a teenager, you're kind of. I was given this impression that when you do something wrong, it's like this one time thing, and then you go in and talk to your bishop and then you feel better and then you don't do it anymore. And I think they don't do a great job explaining that most of the time the thing that people struggle with is gonna just keep on happening.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:26:46] And. And then you're like thinking, oh, all of the former sins have returned and now it was all for nothing. So it didn't go well because we went in and talked and there wasn't really any plan put in place for, like, here's how we help you feel better from this. It was just like, okay, I just told you. And now I feel embarrassed that I told you.

John Dehlin [00:27:08] Oftentimes they'll like, tell you you can't take the sacrament or, you know.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:27:13] Yeah, so I was a little tricky. They. They said I couldn't take the sacrament. And I thought, okay, that's because of me and my worthiness, but other people don't need to Know that. So I took my little water cup and I poured it out. And then I took my piece of bread and I held it in my hand.

John Dehlin [00:27:29] Oh, my goodness. I've never heard of that before.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:27:34] I thought, this isn't about public shame, so why should anybody else have to know that I'm not taking the sacrament? So.

John Dehlin [00:27:40] So you pour the, you pour the water out in your hand.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:27:44] I can't remember where I poured it. I know I didn't drink it because I would feel so bad if I got even a drop in my mouth, but I took the cup. I think I'd like, purposely spilled it. You know what I mean?

John Dehlin [00:27:54] Like, as you're taking the cup, as you're taking the cup out, you kind of. You kind of spill it and then pretend you're drinking it. Wow.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:28:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:02] I mean, that shows a lot of conflict for a kid because you feel that intense guilt. But you don't want to be publicly shamed, right? I mean, what 16, 17 year old wants to be publicly shamed, right as dirty, Right?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:28:15] Right.

John Dehlin [00:28:16] Yeah. And then the bread, you just kind of tuck in your pocket or something.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:28:20] Yeah, yeah. And then I thought I kind of even made more of it than that. I was like, here, I'm gonna have this crust and it's gonna be a symbol to me, and I can hold it all day and I can remember it. And so I kind of used it to my benefit, I guess, in trying to heal and repent. It was a little reminder. Symbolic reminder.

John Dehlin [00:28:39] Sure. All right, so when. When Jared got home, what happened?

Marriage, Faith Struggles, and Early Doubts

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:28:47] He got home. So like I said, his dad lived in Florida and his mom lived in Utah. So he had a one day layover here in Utah. And I went to that. I mean, I went and hung out with him for that, with his mom.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:29:01] She had previously let me come to her house for like Mother's Day and things to talk to him. And then he went to Florida while I did my finals. And I flew out there, I want to say, like two weeks later.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:29:14] And the day I got there, I'd been on a red eye flight and was kind of out of it. And he had this whole, like, Mormon proposal. And I say Mormon because I'm thinking, like, you know, you set up the whole day and you have cute little things and little like gifts that you gave and then you propose. Right. So he had asked an antique shop to stay open late and kind of close to the public, but leave it open to us. And they had a little restaurant there. And then he had bought a different little symbolic Present for each meal that was brought out or each part of the meal.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:29:51] And the last one was the wedding ringing. So he proposed to me that day, and we had already been talking on the phone about all of the wedding plans, so we got married February 18th. He proposed December 19th.

John Dehlin [00:30:05] Wow. Super intense.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:30:09] Yep, in some circles.

John Dehlin [00:30:12] And you were.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:30:12] So you were how old at that time? 21.

John Dehlin [00:30:18] Okay, so not like 18, but still super young.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:30:23] Right, Right.

John Dehlin [00:30:25] And okay, so how long have you guys been married?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:30:28] 10 years.

John Dehlin [00:30:29] Okay, so you've been married 10 years. To what extent were you guys just a normal, faithful couple? I mean, you did. You did go to law school, so that's not normal. So just talk about in what ways you were and were not, not typical orthodox couples.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:30:51] So even that part of it, John, was actually pretty typical because I had a patriarchal blessing that basically told me I was going to grad school. So I think that's super. Probably super rare, but.

John Dehlin [00:31:01] Oh, wow.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:31:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:03] I mean, that kind of makes it simple, doesn't it?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:31:06] Yeah. So we knew that I wanted to do that, and I got invited to this law school luncheon as an undergrad, and they were trying to kind of recruit some women to be in the law school. And so it was like a Women in the Law lecture series.

John Dehlin [00:31:23] This is J. Reuben Clark, law School at byu.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:31:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:25] Okay.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:31:26] So I loved that series, and I thought, this is perfect. Like, I don't know why I didn't think of law school before. I never stopped debating and thinking and talking. So I went and I loved it. We had our first kid, law school.

John Dehlin [00:31:40] Whoa.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:31:41] So that was a little different.

John Dehlin [00:31:42] What year?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:31:43] The 1L year.

John Dehlin [00:31:44] You were a 1L with a baby?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:31:47] Yep. There were three of us.

John Dehlin [00:31:50] That's like Grace Kelly dancing backwards in high heels. You know what I mean? It's just, how do you survive law school with a baby?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:31:58] You know what? I think sometimes that it was easier because people freak out so much about their studies in law school. And I think at some point they're giving like 90% effort for 10% return on investment. And when you have something to distract you, you end up doing the fundamentals. And then I think you. You cut the fat, so to speak, like, you know what I mean? And then be regulated or easy because they have. They actually have these little rooms where you can go in and, like, nurse the baby and stuff, and watch on the screen live your lecture. So that was really helpful.

John Dehlin [00:32:33] That's super nice. I'm sure that you weren't the only pregnant or mom in law school.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:32:40] I'M guessing no, that for the 1L year there were three of us, and then one of them, I think she ended up having two more kiddos in law school, at least one. And I feel like it was two,

John Dehlin [00:32:51] not to mention husbands who have little children as well. Okay, so. So you go to law school, talk about, you know, between law school and eventually you guys having kind of, let's just say, a faith crisis. Was there, was there anything significant that happened that's kind of worth mentioning that feeds into this, the crisis you guys had?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:33:19] I think probably, yeah. So branching off of the depression that I felt when we got married, that always comes back a little bit when you. When anybody, I think, that's been sexually victimized has issues when they get married.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:33:34] Maybe not anybody, but a lot of people that I've met do. And that was certainly true for us. And so I ended up going to therapy and working through that. And the main thing that I realized from the therapy, and I should know, I was. I was victimized more than just the one attempt. There were lots of other little, little things and at least one other big thing. So for me, the thing I learned from therapy was that I was a very black and white thinker. I was an all or nothing thinker. And unfortunately, I really did a lot of all or nothing conclusory work, like building up these conclusions in my head while Jared was on the mission trying to be super duper righteous.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:34:12] And I was extremely hyper vigilant. Like, we didn't watch almost any media. I went like a year and a half or two years without any TV at all. And so trying to break that down, though, it took a long time, but I finally realized how much of an all or nothing thinker I was with regard to that. And so then I started applying it all over the place. Like, well, am I all or nothing thinking about the church? Am I all or nothing thinking about what I think about people and in this situation or whatever?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:34:45] So that. And then law school piggybacked right on top of that. And law school, it's like one of my favorite things I've ever done, and I would highly recommend it to anybody. I mean, it was just awesome. And so the teachers were really respectful and the discussion was really open, and it was all about everything that I already do in my head, which is just like open debate and open discussion. And it just really opened my worldview even more. So now I'm not an all or nothing thinker, you know, at this time when I'm going through law school, and really focusing on that and just thinking. Thinking. Thinking very broadly. So, yeah, that would have been, you know, one of the big precursors to me being open to Jared's transition.

Childhood Trauma and Its Lasting Impact

John Dehlin [00:35:26] Got it. Okay. And. And I. As I was looking through the comments, I think. Did I hear you say that you experienced sexual. Some sort of forms of sexual assault more than one time?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:35:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:40] Was that. Oh, go ahead.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:35:42] As a little. Little kid. And then lots of little things which I wouldn't have called sexual assault before, but now I. Now I do. You know, just random groping, random people ogling, talking, touching me all the time. All the time.

John Dehlin [00:35:57] And that. And I. And as I read through your article, I see maybe I see a little bit of that reflected in some of the comments. Comments you made in your article, which we'll get to. Did that increase your interest in law at all to be able to somehow protect women, or was that even something that occurred to you?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:36:15] I think so, because I was real disappointed in the prosecutorial side of my case. So the attempted sex assault that the stranger, like, broke into our house legitimately and tried to assault me and they didn't charge it. And so to me, that was always really offensive. You know, the officers, as a kid, I had to call.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:36:38] So we called the police, they came over, they did nothing. So I called back as a 12 year old and I said, you know, you sent somebody over here. They didn't collect this. There's physical evidence in my house. Like, they didn't collect it. They didn't ask me for a statement. They didn't ask us to ID anybody. Can you please come back? And they did. And they ended up charging one very low misdemeanor charge against something that this guy had done to my sister in a different room, but nothing against me. So I had always just held that sort of as a grudge, like, you know, something failed in the system there.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:37:08] And so I'm sure that that was part of it. Like, if I go to law school, maybe I can learn a little more about that prosecutorial side of that.

John Dehlin [00:37:17] Very cool. Okay, so you're saying that Jared had the faith crisis first, huh?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:37:23] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:37:23] So you were. You were still your orthodox believer when something happened to Jared?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:37:28] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:37:29] All right, when was this? And talk about what happened.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:37:32] So I didn't know, obviously, because he was very, very quiet about it and also just very kind and patient about it. I think so. But it was before we moved out here, so it would have been, I think, probably 2012 maybe, that he started kind of feeling this way.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:37:46] And I Think the impetus for him, and I hope I'm not present words in his mouth, but it would have been being in leadership because he had been called to be like the young men's president. And he was going to these meetings and seeing like, wow, revelation does not work the way that I thought that it worked. This is much more of a bureaucracy than I thought.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:38:04] I think he was just disappointed in a lot of that. And then he started, you know, reading and thinking and pondering and all of that. And would. He would bring up things to me in a very discussion kind of a way, because he didn't ever want to be confrontational, which was excellent, I think, on his part. So he wouldn't just come up and say, I learned this thing, this is crazy. He would say, what do you think about this? Or did you know, did you know that Joseph Smith was polygamous? You know, did you know this thing? And then we would discuss it. So for several years that happened with increasing frequency and increasing intensity problems

John Dehlin [00:38:45] and that, that can really make an orthodox believer nervous. Were you getting nervous?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:38:50] Absolutely. I tried, I try in all things to be very open minded and very calm, but I'm not. And, but I think he used that to gauge how to react. So there were times when he would talk to me and I would just like flat out say, I cannot talk about this right now. And then there are other times where I would feel my discussion to him, like, you know, my responses to him getting very heated, even though the language wasn't necessarily heated. Like, I like my, you know, I just get anxious and tight. And he would say, like, you're getting really upset. Just, we're just talking.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:39:24] We're not making a decision, we're just talking. And I'd have to calm myself down. But reading between the lines, you know, I knew what kind of was going on. And I remember just saying to him, like, well, are you still praying? Like, are you still reading? I know you're reading all this other stuff. Are you still reading the Scriptures too?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:39:42] And he would kind of inwardly roll his eyes. He didn't roll his eyes at me, but he'd be like, I am in my way. Like, I promise you I am. And I knew he was a good, like, honest guy. So I was just trying to be like, okay, just give him the space and let him do that.

Watching a Spouse Leave and Then Leaving Yourself

John Dehlin [00:39:59] And you know, one of the most important things you do in the article that we'll get to is you talk. You try and sort of convey the mindset of the person who's lost their Faith, but you're also working really hard to communicate with the mindset of the orthodox believer. And what. How so, as you think about the ways that Orthodox believers mistreat or mischaracterize or misjudge someone who's losing their faith, did you do that to Jared? And if so, in what ways?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:40:37] Absolutely. Which is probably why I feel like those people need to be talked to, too. Because I wasn't a bad person. I just. I don't know. I mean, I had been taught so long that there were certain things that if you did them, they would lead to apostasy. And it was so clear to me, and I was, like, so scared that he was just missing the mark. You know, I thought he was looking beyond the mark, so to speak, and he was not doing the fundamental things. And so I'm sure I, you know, asking those questions, if you're doing these, was one of the ways and other ways he could just tell I was emotional. There'd be times when I would just say, you know, like, I need a break. And I would go and cry. And he. I'm sure he could hear me, like, you know, so, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:22] So did you think he. Like, one of the things you mentioned, the article, is sort of assuming that people are taken over by Satan or about influence. Did you kind of wonder that about Jared, that he was being, you know, influenced?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:41:36] It was a conflict. So my mind knew and my heart really knew that he was this really, really good person. Like a really, really, really good person and an honest person. And so I was like, that's where my heart, my mind was. But then I had this sort of, I guess, feeling that, yeah, I mean, maybe he was accidentally, like, missing the mark. Maybe he was. But, yeah, I mean, I thought if he's not doing these fundamental things, then he's subject to the wiles of whatever Satan wants him to believe. Right. So. So it was a conflict for me. And I remember, actually, this is going to sound so weird, and it's going to kind of make people, any believers who are listening, think, oh, yeah, I should be more of a believer.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:42:20] But I turned to the Scriptures and it actually worked. So I turned and I read Second Corinthians, I think it was. It's the one where it basically says, if you have an unbelieving spouse, then you stick with them, and who knows, but what they might become, believing in the future. And so I was like, okay, cool. That's my answer. Let him do what he wants to do. And I, from then on, tried real hard to Just, I don't know, be more understanding.

John Dehlin [00:42:47] So did it drive a wedge between you guys, or were you able to stay close during this time?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:42:53] I think those are sometimes the same thing. So, yeah, it drove a wedge, but if you'd ever have a wedge to kind of work on, then you never progress. And so, yeah, like, we had times where the conversation was difficult and times where I was mad and times where he was mad, and we would pause, right? We stop and we say, like, we're both upset. Like, let's. Let's figure out why we're upset. And then if it's not a good time to talk about it, then we'll calm down and talk about it later. And we did that a lot, and it led to this amount of understanding.

John Dehlin [00:43:23] So, okay, so what point did he just. So how did things start really unfolding? Did he just at some point say, I'm done, or did you start paying attention and you started going astray? Like, how did it start unraveling in its full form?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:43:44] From my perspective and his is probably a little different, but from my perspective, he asked a couple times, like, you know, I'm not gonna go to Elders Quorum. Do you care if I just, like, walk home and you can meet me at home? Or he would just kind of sit out and go run an errand or something. And so to me, that was, like, the beginning of the end for him. I was like, whoa, that's. That's like a real thing. Like, you always go to all three hours. What are you talking about? And I remember kind of sitting in Relief Society and feeling, like just real final about it for him, like, oh, he's.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:44:19] You know, I'm gonna be that. I'm gonna be that person. That person that comes without their husband, and what is this gonna look like? And. And then I. You know, as I said, like, he'd been giving me little things to think about and. And whatever for a long time, and I just didn't have the time. My job was insane. I was working, like, 55, 60 hours most weeks.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:44:42] And so I was just trying and trying to find time. So what I finally started doing was I listened to Lindsey Hansen Clark's podcast, and then I. I had read already a bunch of books on, like, atheism and mainstream Christianity, things like that, because I had wanted to before I even knew about Jared. I just wanted to be able to discuss more, like, with my family and other people.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:45:05] So I had read some of those things, and I was starting to sort of crumble away as well. And I think that the main issues I had were, like, I thought this was a huge conflict between the blacks and the priesthood. And the. And second Nephi. I was like, this is. This is the Book of Mormon. This is the word of the prophet. Like, what am I going to do with this? And there are very few scriptures that are that clear. I could not justify my way around what that scripture was clearly saying. So that was hard for me. And then the podcasts, the year polygamy podcasts, where I was matching up dates and realizing that based on these dates, there had been a grave dishonesty.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:45:44] And I was thinking to myself, like, there are two examples in the scriptures of dishonesty. One is like Abraham being told to say that Sarah was a sister, and the other one is God saying, endless punishment isn't actually endless. And those aren't even straight up dishonesty. So I'm like, this is not a thing that God is okay with. God is not okay with dishonesty. That was really, you know, difficult for me. So I just. I mean, that was the beginning of the end. And I, once I knew those things and I started dedicating a little more time to reading and a little less time to read his scriptures, then I was done.

John Dehlin [00:46:22] And how long ago was that?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:46:25] Probably it was around October. Yeah, October 2015. So, like a year.

John Dehlin [00:46:34] So right before the policy was with the LGBT policy was released by the church.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:46:39] Yeah. And at that time, I know I was in a mindset of like, okay, a lot of things are imperfect, but maybe I can still work through this, because I remember when the policy came out, I was like, I kind of prayed about it and read a scripture. And the scripture I opened up to was like, some things are false. And I was like, okay, good. This was false. So I kind of. I mean, I remember being in that mindset then, so it must have been kind of right after that. Probably a month or two after that.

John Dehlin [00:47:04] Got it.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:47:04] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:47:06] All right, so let's check in with our listeners really quick. Neil writes, I love this podcast. Larry writes, the comment quote, what is this going to look like? Unquote, ring so familiar, and adds guilt. Mary writes, so relating to this, thank you for sharing. Had some ladies come over to my house in the guise of being friends, Friendly neighbors. Accused my husband of being an alcoholic or abusive, because surely something must be wrong. Well, what do you think about that, Bryn?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:47:40] It makes me just feel sick to my stomach. The same thing happened to me. This is not. I shouldn't compare this, but it's a little bit Comparable. So in high school, that happened to me too, because when I started dating Jared and people knew that we were being kind of more touchy than we should be, I had some friends come up and say, like, well, I don't think he's a good influence on you. And they were. These were friends who like their boyfriends, I thought were stalkers. So I was super offended. It felt super hypocritical. They didn't know this person and it wasn't helpful. It's not helpful at all. Like, if I. If my husband is an alcoholic and abusive, I probably know that. I mean, granted there's situations where people need some outside support to get out of real bad situations, but this is not one of those and it doesn't help anybody.

John Dehlin [00:48:24] Right? Yeah. One more comment. Matthew writes, John Loving, your live podcast from Tokyo. They are so much more personal. So shout out to Matthew in Tokyo. I think that's pretty cool. People can join us from that far away. And then also I'll read Leah. Leah writes, my father was incredibly strict when I had a boyfriend similar to hers. I would always feel immense guilt for arousing him. And after we would kiss too much, I always would beat myself about it. And it bothered me that my boyfriend was never guilted like me, probably due to the fact that my father conducted bishop like interviews with us kids.

John Dehlin [00:49:05] And I was probed how far I was going sexually. That would not be fun. I hated bishop interviews during my life because it reminded me of how my father lectured and probed into my sexual life. Wow, that doesn't sound fun. Leah, thanks for sharing. What do you have in response to that for Leah?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:49:23] Bryn, the same thing happened with me. I mean, they want to know. They want to know how far you went. And I don't. I don't get that. And I remember just speaking in negatives because rather than wanting to describe it, I described what we had not done.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:49:37] And yeah, I remember I hadn't thought about that before, but Jared and I went into at least one of these interviews together. And now I remember it being like I was doing the talking, like I was being questioned and he was sitting there for support. And I'm like, I don't know why that was.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:49:52] And he went as well to a different bishop later on, and he felt like that bishop was very helpful. But that may have just been Bishop roulette, I don't know. So. But the same is true. You kind of made me think of something else, which is when I had started to try to go to therapy, even before college. So in high school I tried this. One of the therapists that I went to was like real super interested in how far we had gone and was asking me a lot of details about it on the like, first time I had been there.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:50:21] So I don't know if, I mean, I don't know if I can really make a conclusion about that, but it is very off putting for sure.

John Dehlin [00:50:29] Definitely. Kimberly writes, Bryn, you are incredible. So proud of you and everything you've had the courage to share. Let's see. All right. And I should just add that we have over 200 people now joining us live. That's a very large number for a Facebook Live broadcast. So I just want to welcome everyone who's joined us through Facebook Live. We're so glad to have you. We want to encourage you to make more comments or ask questions. Again, the. The article that we're going to be discussing is linked to in the description of the Facebook post and it's called they Can Leave the Church But They Can't Leave the Church Alone by Bryn Thomas Gant.

John Dehlin [00:51:15] Okay, so now for years you were looking at Jared with some suspicion or some concern. And then in your narrative you joined the ranks of the non believers. How were you treated by family and friends once you fell into the same category as Jared?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:51:35] Well, I think I had it a little easier for, in some ways than other people because I had these seven siblings, most of whom I felt like would be probably even not more accepting, but easier for me to talk to once I left.

John Dehlin [00:51:49] So now in adulthood, most of your siblings just didn't stay engaged in the church.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:51:54] Nope. And even as you younger kids. So there's seven of them and I'm going through. Yeah, I mean there's two that I that I think identify LDs. They're definitely not orthodox.

John Dehlin [00:52:08] Liz, by the way, your sister Liz just posted I'm so proud of my sis. So Liz is tuning in.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:52:14] Yep. She and she's actually sister in law, but we call each other sis because it's awesome.

John Dehlin [00:52:18] Okay, cool. All right. Hi, Liz.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:52:21] She's Jared's older sister.

John Dehlin [00:52:22] Got it. Okay. So were your siblings supportive?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:52:28] Yeah, you know, we have so many people in our family that some of the relationships are closer than others because you just don't have the time and ability to be super close with everybody. But my oldest sister is super duper supportive. She always has been, really. And you know, next to her. So Julie's supportive, Tammy's supportive, Ann's supportive. Carmen is one of the ones that's active. I haven't heard anything rude from her. Like, it's not like she came out and ever said anything mean to me. She's been supportive and Shah Shawna is her name. She's treated me exactly the same.

John Dehlin [00:53:06] So have you and Jared experienced any of the treatment sort of outlined in your article?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:53:14] Yeah, I mean, so my siblings are the one exception. I think my parents have been mostly the same, except that the default issue is I can't really talk to them about almost anything anymore because they are. They're very, very believing in a very deep, spiritual sort of way, like, less. I mean, they do all the right things on the surface as well, but it's more than that. It's like they, you know, anything they think about in life is colored by the church, just like I talk about there. And so the discussions are different. I don't talk to them a lot anyway.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:53:55] I kind of wish we were able to talk more, but they have a lot on their, their plates that, you know, they help some of my other siblings. And so that changed sort of just by default. And then, you know, Jared's relationship with his mom actually has been great. She's been very, very understanding and accepting and just kind to us. And then his dad, you know, he's got some other complications going on as well, but his dad doesn't really call him anymore. So, I mean, there's that. And then his brother, interestingly, was also very upset by some of the life changes, even though he's not active.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:54:36] And so that was sort of surprising to Jared. And then we've had some friends and stuff, that some of the friends have stayed the same. Some of them, I think by default you only talk to them at church. And so we just don't. We don't get the opportunity to see them much anymore. I've had a few that have reached out and just said, hey, like, I don't get to talk to you very much. Like, how are things going? And then I've had some people email and say, you are making the wrong choice. I don't believe you. You're lying. You're, you know, you're going to hell and you're going to hate your life.

John Dehlin [00:55:06] In 10 years, you have had people reach out like that?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:55:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:11] What's that like?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:55:14] It didn't affect me as much as I thought it would. Sometimes I get real stressed out about that stuff. It affected me enough that I responded in sort of a mean way in most of the instances, but then I sort of calmed down and let it go. So it's just not fun. I mean, and the thing about it that's not fun is it feels real unfair. Like you want to go back and explain. You want people to understand it. And I think the irony of it is, had I been a believing Mormon, I would have thought there would have been a time when everybody would know the truth. And now I'm like, dang it, I don't even know if there's a time when they're gonna see that they're wrong. They might just die and turn into dust, and then I'll never be vindicated. And it's upsetting, but,

John Dehlin [00:55:55] yeah. Yeah. So it's hard to be attacked and it's hard to be judged and it's hard to be written off, and especially when you feel like you're doing something from a place of being informed, from a place of being courageous, of loving truth, of. Of doing what is right, I'm guessing. Does that. Does that ring true to you as well?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:56:15] Yeah.

What Prompted the Open Letter

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 761

John Dehlin [00:00:29] And so what we'd like to do now is just thank everyone for joining us so far. And we'll now jump into part two of the interview, which is actually discussing the article itself. And so for those of us, those of you who have the article or computer handy, you're welcome to pull that out. And what I'd like to do is just kind of go through some of the points you make in the article, Brynne, and talk about them. And there may be even points where we read from the article. Do you have the article handy in case we do read? Okay, so I may ask you at a point or two to kind of read, if that's okay.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:01:08] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:01:09] Okay. So first and foremost, what made you write this article? What was the trigger?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:01:19] The new name Noah post about Savannah is really what I had been wanting to like. I had already written down some bullet points maybe six months ago about just not liking this phrase. And I just hate this phrase and sort of pondering about it, but I hadn't written anything. And then the, this post about Savannah came out.

John Dehlin [00:01:38] For those, for those who are on Mars and have not heard at all what happened with Savannah, why don't you just talk about that? Give a, give a little background.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:01:45] Oh, yeah, and you can, I'm sure you can google it and just, it'll just come up. But a 12 year old girl went to give her testimony in church and she had decided, you know, she prayed and thought about it and she felt like she was accepted by God even though she was gay. And so she had written down her testimony and she went to go give her testimony. And I think after, you know, two or three times of talking about being accepted as being gay, the stake leader, I can't remember who it was, had asked her if she could please sit down. So she was sort of silenced in doing that and somebody in the audience was recording it.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:02:19] And I know there's been some talk about maybe this was staged. I mean, I don't know. It doesn't look staged to me. But whether it is or not, I think it's believable. And so the issue was people were commenting on this and I should, I don't read the comments usually, but Jared refused to let it go. So he came out and read these comments to me while I was like working in the yard. And I just got really angry and I stopped working in the yard and I came in and I typed this up.

John Dehlin [00:02:43] What were the. What, what, what about the comments made you upset?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:02:47] Oh, there was some. There was one Main, you know, discussion going back and forth where this gal was saying that basically, you know, why don't you ever see anybody ranting and raving against the Catholic Church or Muslim? I mean, I don't think she said Muslims because that one's so, like, obvious. But she said, you know, I think it's just telling that this means that the church is true. And I have thought that before. As a kid, I remember going to conference and seeing people, you know, ranting and raving and feeling in my little small world, like, oh my gosh, why did they care so much about this church? It's clearly true. Like, why else would they be doing this? And I was just so sick of that sentiment. And I was sick to my stomach that I felt that way before. So I had to go right about it.

John Dehlin [00:03:36] So basically she was arguing that if the church receives opposition, that it must be true.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:03:42] Yeah, well, because of the amount of opposition that it receives it, because it's the only one that receives it.

John Dehlin [00:03:49] Yeah.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:03:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:50] Okay, cool. So you got really upset and you wrote it. And the first thing you do in the article is you talk about how the believer views the non believer and you try and put yourself in their shoes. Why don't you go ahead and read just that first paragraph for the article?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:04:17] Okay. So it says, I've been mulling over this idea for a while. This idea of people leaving the church in Mormonism but being unable to leave it alone. Do you have someone in your life like this? What does it tell you about the gospel to know that they can't leave Mormonism alone? Does it strengthen your beliefs as you literally witness the adversary work his hardest against that which is clearly true? Is it not just another testimony to your beliefs? Do you see that the spirit has left them and that now they are unhappy? Do you watch them feeling angry and sad and feel bad for them, wishing they could just see the error of their ways? Like the prodigal son, return to your loving arms. Do you see the literal unfolding of divine consequence as you know, that wickedness never was happiness.

John Dehlin [00:04:55] So the audience of this article is who, who are you targeting towards? I mean, it's obvious.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:05:01] Well, let me, let me clarify first that a lot of times when I write a blog, I kind of just write. I mean, all of my things are just. It started out almost like a personal journal, but just online. So I didn't come out and think like, here's who I want to affect with this particular piece. But naturally I have people on believing and non believing sides who I care about. And so I'm always thinking about those people. So I'm sure I was wanting to sort of reach out to my believing circle.

John Dehlin [00:05:35] So it's meant for believers. And that's tricky because are they even going to want to read an article that challenges their viewpoint? You know, did you think about that?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:05:44] I did. I had some angrier language in here that I ended up editing out. Like, I think I had used the word patronizing at some point. And I was like, no, I mean, they don't think they're patronizing. So I'm going to take that out. And now anybody who's believing that's watching is like, oh, that's how she really feels. I'm not reading this.

John Dehlin [00:06:04] So the target is believers. And was it your hope that people would actually. Believers would actually read this article and really give it a fair shot? Was that your hope?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:06:19] I think so. Let me kind of look at it. And like I said, I kind of just write. But so whatever I'm feeling is what ends up coming out. I wanted believers and non believers to read it. I wanted to believers to feel comfortable reading it. I tend to write a lot in that way. Like, I tend to not cite to anything not, you know, really anti Mormon. I tend to not say anything too inflammatory because I do want people to feel comfortable reading it. I think most people are only going to read something that's uncomfortable to a small degree. So if you make it uncomfortable to a large degree, no one's going to want to hear that.

John Dehlin [00:06:58] Yeah, and it's just so tricky because so many, so many orthodox religious people, or Mormons particularly, are oriented towards really only seeing the only credible authority as a church leader or the scriptures. And so they're going to be predisposed to not want to listen or take this seriously. And that's got to be hard. So, you know, you know, it makes sense. You're basically just writing what you feel and hoping there's an audience out there. I'm curious if there's any believers who are listening to this podcast and who have read Bryn's article. I would love to hear comments and questions for them. I'll give them preference because I think it's going to be rare the believer that's actually willing to read this with an open heart. And that's part of the problem, isn't it?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:07:45] I think so. I think the church leaves room for people to do this kind of thing. I mean, treating people a certain way and up to a point. And so I hoped that people could read it. Without it having to be like a. Is this doctrinal or. Not doctrinal, but rather this is more about how we treat people on an everyday basis.

John Dehlin [00:08:04] Yeah. So an open invitation to believers out there to comment or ask questions. We would love to include you guys in the discussion and to give you kudos for being willing to step outside what's correlated to consider other things. All right, so you talk about catchphrases. Talk about the catchphrase. They can leave the church, but they can't leave it alone. And what catchphrases do, in your opinion?

Catchphrases, Clichés, and How They Shut Down Conversation

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:08:35] I mean, what I wrote there is what I think. Like it's a shortcut to some thing that you've thought out before. So you have some train of thought, some analytical reasoning or emotional reasoning, and you say it in some succinct way. And that's exactly what they can leave the church, but they can't leave it alone. Is. It doesn't. It's not saying what it says on the surface. What it's saying is it proves something. It shows something, that they cannot leave it alone. And that something is that it's. I think for a lot of people, that something is. That it's true.

John Dehlin [00:09:09] Yeah. For me. For me, what it also does is it allows. It allows people who've left the church to be kind of dismissed. If you can come up with the cute catchphrase that maybe sounds a little bit witty and authoritative, then you don't have to actually consider their concerns and view them as human. You can just sort of go, oh, well, they leave the church, but they can't leave it alone. So now I'm gonna just dismiss them and not really listen. Right.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:09:37] Yeah. I think for some people, that's. That's what it is. It's a. It's not only a thought shortcut to, you know, it's a. It's proof that it's true, but it's a thought shortcut to they are antagonistic, and I don't need to be around antagonistic people. So done.

John Dehlin [00:09:54] And there's also this. This sort of assumption that they're. If they leave the church, but they can't leave it alone, that they're kind of. They can't get over it. They're offended. They're just kind of weak and complaining. And we don't want to mess around with those types of people. There's also a brilliance to the phrase because its attempt is to silence people. Right. What would you, you know, can you see? And of course, we're just. We're just brainstorming here, but can you see how basically shaming people who speak up against the harm the church does, how that works in the church's favor? Right.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:10:36] Yeah. I mean, if you're thinking of it as super contrived, which I don't always think of it as.

John Dehlin [00:10:40] No, I don't think it is. No.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:10:42] But if it. If it were. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:43] The effect of it. The effect of it is what I'm talking about.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:10:46] Yeah. The effect, whether it's planned or not, is definitely to do that. I mean, the effect is it distances people. I think a person who speaks up about leaving the church or conflicts with the church is not just a non believer at that point. They have changed to be more like Nihor or more. You know, they are the Antichrist now. They are. They're not just the person who's misled, they are the person who is misleading. And that's a whole different ballpark for believing Mormon. It's. It's something that you are. That you are allowed to stay away from, that you are allowed to shun.

John Dehlin [00:11:21] Yeah, yeah. And so. And just more importantly, I think the church knows that information. I mean, why else would they have hid or changed the history for so long? Why would they have spun a historical narrative that was incomplete and sometimes completely wrong? The leaders have to know on some level that information is powerful, that information is toxic. It's like a virus. And as we've seen the effects of Mormon stories, podcasts of other podcasts of ces, Letter of Mormon, think of the Church's own essays.

John Dehlin [00:11:57] Once information gets shared, it spreads like a virus and other people get infected, just like it happened with you with the issue of polygamy. And so it makes sense that to defend against that dangerous information, the Church would want to create some catchphrase. Whether they do this intentionally or not, it would benefit them to create a catchphrase so that anyone who is vocal could be dismissed out of hand and devalued and demeaned in a way to where you wouldn't want to give them thoughtful consideration. Doesn't the catchphrase kind of do that a little bit?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:12:35] I feel like it does. I mean, it did with. When I was on the other side of it. That's what it did to me. Like, you know, I'm not going to give these naysayers any time because they're just running around, you know, yelling and arguing about stuff that I don't need to know about.

John Dehlin [00:12:50] Right.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:12:51] I mean, I've heard that in a testimony meeting in our ward Someone stood up and she said, you know, I posted something on Facebook and somebody commented to me and said, well, have you ever read this? And I didn't go read it because I didn't need to. I didn't need to know what it said because I knew what it was sort of, you know, getting at, which was anti Mormon or whatever, and I didn't need to read that. Yeah, it's common to hear that.

John Dehlin [00:13:14] Totally. Okay, so you go on the. One of the main sections, kind of the first sections you write to try and create empathy for those who speak up after they've lost their faith is the section that says they didn't leave Mormonism until it left them alone and with absolutely no direction. Talk about what happens when somebody leaves Mormonism and what you mean by it left them. What do you mean? Mormonism left them alone.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:13:44] I mean, mostly this is going to be from my personal experience because I talk to a lot of people, but I have. I'm never going to have the depth with them that I have with myself. Right. So this is about like everything I thought was wrapped up in Mormonism or when you find out for me, find out that it's not what it said it was. I mean, I didn't do that. I didn't decide that it wasn't what it was. It just wasn't. And so it's its fault, not mine. And now I have, you know, I didn't have anything. I didn't have anything to go off of anymore. So that's what I mean. I mean, I. All I did was read and study and pray and think. And that's what humans do. So it's not my fault that this left. It left me.

John Dehlin [00:14:32] And. But you're also, you know, when you talk about the church leaving them alone and with no direction, you're using that as a way to explain why people need to be vocal. Did you, you know, did you feel like you were without direction? And what is your experience with people who leave and feel that sense of directionlessness?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:14:55] I mean, they need. They need other people to talk to. That's. I think that's what that is. It's like when you're left alone, you can't go to the normal community that you would normally go to for help. So where do you go? And especially people whose spouse is on a completely different page, you know, that's supposed to be their confidant. So now what do they do? Well, I mean, they need to speak up because as soon as one person speaks up, everybody else says, oh, My gosh, that resonated with me and I'm so glad you said it because now I know I'm not alone. Now I know there's someone else I can talk to to get ideas, examples, you know, what do you do on Sundays?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:15:27] What do you do, you know, when you have a problem, where do you go to think it through and then you have answers whereas you didn't have them before.

John Dehlin [00:15:35] Yeah, and it's, it's so complicated because Mormonism is such as most high demand religions, Jehovah's Witness, Scientology, you know, orthodox Judaism, evangelical Christianity, it's such a comprehensive mindset and worldview. Plus, as you mentioned in the article, you're only encouraged as an orthodox religious believer to communicate and stick with other orthodox religious believers who share your views. So not only is it catastrophic to have that worldview unravel, but all your friends and family are usually part of that. And so when you experience the distress of having your worldview unravel, you, like you mentioned the article, you need, you're angry, you're sad, you're lost, and you need someone to talk to. Well, all of the people that you would have normally relied on to be able to talk to are part of the system. And so it leaves you literally alone with your whole world kind of falling apart. Is that what you're getting at?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:16:43] It is, yeah. One thing I would clarify. I mean, you say they're only encouraged to talk to each other. I think that's on paper, not true. I think it ends up being true. I think we're actually encouraged, you know, to try to go out and be a, every member, a missionary. I just think we're not really great at that most of the time.

John Dehlin [00:16:59] Yeah, yeah. And I don't mean that we're taught don't talk to non Mormons. That's not what I meant to say. But definitely you're so busy in church with all the activities, you're socializing with the people. And I think we're taught that. I think that it's reinforcing as a believer to be around other people that believe. I just think that's something that we all do naturally. Post Mormons tend to hang around each other, and so that's natural, I think. But also nobody wants to be around people who are going to threaten or challenge their worldview. Right. And so you're right. The church definitely encourages relationships outside of Mormonism to the extent that it can hopefully lead to missionary efforts. But I think by and large most Mormons, especially in heavily populated Mormon areas their, their main friendships and relationships are other active, believing Mormons. Isn't that fair to say?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:17:59] I think it's absolutely fair to say. I think that it's, it's scary for them to be around things that happen. Well, maybe not for everybody, but for someone that was real orthodox like me, it's nerve wracking to be around a group of people who talk in very colorful ways or, you know, do things that you can't do or disagree with. And so, yeah, it's very, very difficult and not a lot of people do it. I remember we made friends with a neighbor who was inactive once and they were basically saying, nobody else has ever talked to us ever. And you know, the lady had considered, you know, never wearing tank tops because she didn't want anyone to know she wasn't Mormon. And they had just moved to Utah like a year or two before that. So yeah, I mean, it's rare.

John Dehlin [00:18:44] Yeah. Chris writes, when something is part of your core identity, it doesn't leave you overnight. You see this when anyone believes any type of belief system. John Larsen's response to this catchphrase had something to the effect of what kind of psychopath could either could leave the entire worldview overnight and be fine with it. And I would add, and not talk about it. Yeah, you would actually be crazy and unhealthy and probably diagnosable. If you lived 20 or 30 years under this, 40 years under this incredibly strong and comprehensive worldview, and then all of a sudden you just, oh, I'm moving on, I'm not going to talk about it anymore.

John Dehlin [00:19:22] That would actually be pathological. That's a great point from Chris. Mary writes, one reason leaving has been amazing for me is that it allowed me to view others through fresh eyes. The world is so much brighter. That's a great point. Ann writes, when you have been raised and have made almost every major life decision and then leave, it is a huge sense of hurt, deceit, sadness. And Britt, I think you were getting at this in the article. It's very normal to mull over in your head how for however long it takes to reconcile the amount of time, effort and emotions that goes into transitioning out so quote, can't leave it alone, end quote, is more about emotional distance and healing than obsession over justifying a bad decision.

John Dehlin [00:20:02] And I will add, Ann and Bryn, that what I've discovered about Mormon Stories podcast, because we're over 750 episodes in and a lot of the stories end up sounding very similar. But when you start doubting or Even disbelieving a really rigidly orthodox religious believing system, oftentimes you doubt yourself and you, you know, am I crazy? Could I be wrong? The stakes are so high. What if I am wrong? And so talking about it is the way that you process it.

John Dehlin [00:20:38] We are creatures of language, and so, yes, we must talk about it. We must talk about it with non believers, with non Mormons, and with believers. Because even a year, two or five into a faith crisis, many of us are still hardwired to think we're sinning, that we're wrong, even if the evidence is obvious and clear.

John Dehlin [00:20:58] And so talking about it is just the way that we process it. And in many ways try and decide that we're not crazy. Right? That we're not evil and bad and crazy. And I think that's really important. Any thoughts on that?

How Believers Treat Those Who Have Left

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:21:14] For sure. I mean, I quantified my experiences sort of scientifically. I remember taking it, you know, making a journal. And I had different lists of, here are the things that have happened to me that make me believe. Here are the things that made me not believe. And then I started actually writing down the times. I have a different post about this, but the times when I tried to find a spiritual answer and got one versus the times when I tried to find a spiritual answer and didn't. And I was, like, looking at these, comparing, being like, oh, I thought I was getting ANSWERS, you know, 80, 90% of the time, really, it's like 10% of the time, you know, I just had all these lists so that I could, you know, look at it on paper and say to myself, like, am I really?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:21:59] Is what I think is true? Actually true? From my experience, and it wasn't actually initially. So definitely we have to write the right. We have to talk. We have to, I don't know, work through it.

John Dehlin [00:22:11] Absolutely. The last thing I'll say is there's. You know, it's probably worth mentioning, by the way, that there's an actual temple recommend question that says something to the effect of, do you associate with people, you know, who have thoughts or beliefs or actions that are encountered to the church? And even if that question is really engineered towards polygamists or apostates or whatever the case might be, it's basically priming you to think, well, I should stay away from anything that would ever cause me to doubt a question. And I think that's going to naturally cause people to stay away from people who hold opposing worldviews. So I think even the temple recommend question sort of prejudices people in this Way.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:22:59] Yeah, it's a very broad question if it was meant to be real, finite. I mean, I think there was a more like a more finite way of saying it, but it's. If I remember right, it's very broad. You know, groups or individuals who are antagonistic to church and.

John Dehlin [00:23:15] Yeah, okay. So having talked about some sexual assault in your background, it's really interesting that you bring up domestic violence relationships as a way to sort of compare, analogize to the experience of someone losing their faith. Talk about why you chose that comparison.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:23:36] So that's less of a personal example. I, in law school kind of focused on domestic violence prevention, so that was more sort of educational. But I've, in my job before, did a lot of domestic violence prosecution, worked with a lot of those people. And most of the time it's a cycle and they're stuck in it and they rely on this person. So, you know, whoever's being abused is in this situation where a lot of times their money comes from this person. They're love and support comes from this person. Their children are tied to this person, their home. A lot of times they're isolated, so they might not live near other family members.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:24:20] A lot of times they've gotten bad habits like drinking or whatever, which, if I'm using a metaphor, would be like judgment or distancing yourself from other people. And they're stuck there. And so then when they finally decide they get, you know, brave enough to leave, everything comes crashing down and they don't have support anymore because all of their family's mad at them for drinking or whatever they're doing, and they don't live somewhere and their kids are, you know, stuck in a custody battle. It's really similar, I feel like, because. And I said it's harsh, and I think it is maybe kind of a harsh comparison, but there are so many things that are easy to compare.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:24:59] So your community's tied up there. A lot of times your children are tied up there. There are very few things that I find more heartbreaking than hearing a person's story about how their kid feels, like they're more righteous than their parent and is trying hard to get their parent back. I just think that's. It's just so, you know, flopped, and it's really sad. So that's. That's where that comparison came from. I'm passionate about that in my work life, and I just saw a lot of parallels. Hold on a second. I lost your sound.

John Dehlin [00:25:32] No, sorry. I was. I sometimes cough, and so I mute. Sorry about that. I Muted myself. And what was really powerful to me about that connection is that, you know, it's always tricky because so many sexual assault cases come down to he said, she said, or she said, he said, or something to that effect. And it can get really complicated, especially when it involves someone you love on either side. And what you're saying is regardless of whatever the facts are, those things don't matter so much as if you're really trying to do good, then what you care about is what the person feels happened, because that should matter regardless of the facts. Isn't that kind of a main point you were making?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:26:21] It is. I think I'm being slightly manipulative there because obviously I also believe my, my position is right. So I'm doing my best to get somebody to listen to it enough that they can finally learn that it's right. And. But I think everybody does that. I think everybody just, you know, they want to be heard. But at the core, I mean, at the beginning of that. Yeah. I mean, whether you think you're right or wrong, how somebody feels matters. And it matters a lot more than I think we give it credit for sometimes in our society.

John Dehlin [00:26:53] Yeah. So someone feels they've been lied to or betrayed, that that deserves love and understanding. And you'd think that'd be very consistent with the sensibilities that Christ tried to put forth of love and empathy and understanding and compassion. Compassion go the extra mile, that sort of thing. It seems like that would resonate with an orthodox Christian or Mormon to just say whatever, they're in pain and I'm going to listen to them and love them. And unfortunately, it's often too triggering for them to be able to do that.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:27:28] Yeah, I think so. I think a lot of people suffer from too little self analysis. And so they feel some feeling when they talk to their loved one. And it's hard. And rather than asking themselves why it is hard, they use a catchphrase or they use something to distance themselves from it. So they get away from the hard thing instead of saying like, oh, am I being triggered because I have some doubts? Or am I being triggered because I'm so scared of not being with my loved one for eternity? And it's hard to face that.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:28:01] And so they need to face that. They need to analyze it, figure out what the issue is, and then I think, work through the conversation. Because when you find a little catchphrase or something that makes you feel good about it, you're just digging your, you know, you're digging your own grave. Like you're you're distancing yourself from the person you love when it's that person's love that's causing you to be fearful in the first place. You know, losing that person's love or losing that relationship.

John Dehlin [00:28:26] Yeah. You go on to write about betrayal and how these, you know, people often feel betrayed. You talk about promises that weren't fulfilled, that in many cases they were lied to. There were hypocrites. You know, there are hypocritical things going on. You talk about this teeth gnashing guilt that people often suffer from addictions that they develop when they're in an unhealthy religious framework and they're experiencing so much anxiety or depression or trauma. Often addictions do develop. And then you talk a lot about, you know, other regrets that they'd have. If you don't mind, why don't you start from some of them wasted away their time and read that through the end where you write they are. Can you read that little section?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:29:17] Yeah. So some of them wasted away their time, their energy, their educations, their. Their relationships. Try and stand firm to something they now believe is utterly false. They shunned opportunities for good. It's better to go on a mission than to join the Peace Corps. They shunned people they should have loved. Don't date anyone you wouldn't marry. Don't jump into a pit to try to push someone else out. They increased their likelihood of poverty, putting off education for missions, placing no limit on the number of children they had, making life choices based on feelings rather than logic. They lost out on opportunities for personal education.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:29:49] Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. They wasted their life feeling empty because of a faulty womb. God's commandment to multiply and replenish the earth remains in pores. Some of them starved themselves or cut themselves, wondering all the while if they were legion and if God could and would cure them of their filth. All the while reading and praying and fasting more fervently than ever, trying to place themselves more in line with a book they now believe is nonsense. Some of them came close to suicide. Some of them are no longer with us. Whether it is or isn't, it feels like the ultimate betrayal. And so they are hurt. They are.

John Dehlin [00:30:24] That was really powerful to me, and I think a lot of people resonate with that. And I'll just say, back when the church was, you know, back when Marlon Jensen was church historian and when he was, he realized that the Internet was going to really damage the church. He saw the writing on the wall. And he reached out to us, believe it or not, and asked us to help him study people who left the church. And so we surveyed over 3000 non believing and post Mormons to find out what caused them to leave the church. And of course there were all the typical reasons. Polygamy, polyandry, blacks in the priesthood, Book of Mormon historicity, Book of Abraham, all that stuff.

John Dehlin [00:31:11] But you know, the truth is the world is full of people that believe crazy or difficult things. And a lot of people would say the polygamy, you know, is surmountable. You know, the questions about Book of Mormon historicity are surmountable. What so many people wrote in that study was that what was insurmountable was feeling like the church had betrayed them and lied to them and deceived them.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:31:40] Exactly. You know, you said two things. One is you got the typical responses. And I think for a lot of believers, those aren't the typical responses. They don't think that people are leaving over true like doctrinal issues. They think people are leaving over being offended or, you know, not wanting to comply with the rules. So that's, that's the one thing. But the other thing is, it's just.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:32:02] Let me go back to this part here. I think that when people leave, they're misunderstood and they want to be understood. Right. And it's the exact opposite of what's going on. They're being distanced and nobody's going to be listening to what they want to explain about that.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:32:23] I think, you know, for me, the issue wasn't polygamy. The issue was the dishonesty about the polygamy. Even when I talk to people about, let me tell you about polygamy, they stop there and they say, oh, she's been offended by something. There's some, there's some things she doesn't want to obey. She doesn't want to share her husband with somebody.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:32:43] And I had worked through that a long time ago. You know, I had reasoned to myself that people have multiple kids and they love all of their kids the same. And having more kids doesn't divide their love. So why couldn't the same be true of wives? Right. I had reason to my this out. That's not the issue. The issue was the dishonesty and the material about the polygamy.

John Dehlin [00:33:02] Yeah. I'm going to stop and read a comment from our own Jeralee Renshaw. She's wonderful. She writes, I'm listening while on my morning walk on a beautiful trail that makes me happy to think that people are listening live while walking on a trail somewhere in Utah and she had to stop and write this comment. So Geralee's hobby hiking and she writes this comment on the side of the trail with her thumbs and her mobile device. She writes, I would self describe as a thoughtful Mormon as it has been my experience that the terms believing and non believing can create an automatic divide. That's a good point.

John Dehlin [00:33:38] We talk about believing and non believing a lot and it's hard to use categories when we're describing people and not oversimplify. So thanks for helping us be thoughtful about that anyway. Jerry Lee also writes, I appreciate this effort for greater understanding and bridge building here when our son first came to us with his faith deconstruction. I can't even begin to describe the intense fear I experienced intense years later. I now fully understand the difficulties and reasons why many cannot stay. And not only is the fear gone for me, but I honor those choices. Greater understanding makes all the difference in my opinion. And I think both sides can learn from these discussions.

John Dehlin [00:34:18] My hope is that we can begin to bridge the gap as we learn to better understand. And I think Jeralee's right. The more that we can use language that helps make people feel comfortable to listen and to talk and to be open minded and to discuss, the more we bridge the gap. And I'm assuming that was hopefully your goal, Bryn, and that's why you sometimes had to edit a little bit of your anger out of the essay. Is that true?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:34:46] It is. Because, I mean, the fear, I think, is what drives people apart from their loved ones. And I think if they understood the people's intentions better, that fear would go away. Because doctrinally, people who are good people who are, you know, trying to find truth are going to be fine.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:35:12] I mean, arguably from a doctrinal standpoint, I grew up, Jared always says I grew up in a different Mormonism than other people, but that's what I grew up believing, that really accepting the gospel was about trying to be happy here and now because it had good life lessons and that everybody would have a chance and a real chance, not a, oh shoot, I didn't know, you know, I didn't know enough then to accept it like a real chance. And so I think if you can get rid of that fear and just feel comfortable with people who are making a different decision that you don't have to worry about eternally, you can talk to them a lot more.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:35:46] Jared used to use this metaphor that I loved and he talked about being a Kid going outside and playing in the mud. You walk inside, you get the carpet all dirty, and your mom's not home. And there's seven different cleaners. There's Windex, and there's 409, and there's. You know, you're trying different things on this carpet, and you got them all wrong. And your mom came home and there was the stain. And she said, well, here's. This was mom's special cleaner. You were supposed to use this one cleaner. But the kid tried, right? The kid was trying his best to get the stain off. He was trying everything he could think of.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:36:18] I go, I don't see a parent, not a good loving parent, saying, okay, too bad. You know, you're cast out of my house now because you didn't find mom special cleaner. I think that holds up doctrinally, and I think when you believe that, if you can accept that, you can talk to all sorts of people with different ideas and be comfortable doing it.

John Dehlin [00:36:39] And I love Jerry Lee's example of a still faithful, committed, thoughtful Mormon that's believing on some level, I'm guessing, who now not only loves and fully supports her son, but even can get in a place where they can feel secure in their belief and commitment to Mormonism, but they can also celebrate, not only fully understand, but even celebrate someone's decision or at least honor it in a deep, respectful way, their decision to have to leave. And that. I think that's what we're all going for. I don't think. I know. At the Open Storage foundation, we're not about tearing people away from the church, about hurting the church.

John Dehlin [00:37:23] We do want people to become aware of these difficult things. And then once there's awareness, then if people decide they want to stay or leave, that's not so important. What's important is that families don't get torn apart, relationships don't get torn apart, and that people are respected whether they stay or go.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:37:42] Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:37:45] So, but the fear on the believing side and the anger and betrayal on the other side, those are really difficult emotions to bridge, right?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:37:58] Very, very much so. Yeah. I mean, I think that's the main. I don't know if it's the main, but it's definitely a big problem with relationships. Like, somebody is one person's real angry. And that's why I say, like, you got to look past that anger. If you're, you know, a very thoughtful, still active, believing member, you got to look past that anger, that sarcasm you get. And you should do that in all aspects of anytime a person is very, very hurt because that's how humans respond. And they need a little bit of leeway to do that. And then on the other side, you know, you gotta calm yourself down and realize who you're talking to. Take a couple of steps back and be patient with how you talk.

John Dehlin [00:38:35] Yeah. Chad writes, imagine being told after 40 years that your mom and dad aren't your mom and dad. You were kidnapped as a child, your entire perspective of the world would change in an instant. That is. Yeah, it's an example of feeling betrayed. Okay, so the next part of your essay talks about you titled it it stole and broke their families. Now that's pretty, that's pretty hardcore language you're using there. You know, stealing a family is kind of language that you associate with like a cult, literally kidnapping your family. So why did you use such strong language saying it stolen broke families?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:39:20] I think at this point in the article, I've made it pretty clear, I think for the reader that I'm talking about how somebody feels. So I hope it's not, you know, so much of a headline that it turns people away. So harsh of a headline. It turns people away, but this is how people feel. And the, you know, the groups that I'm part of and the people that I talk to, like what I hear over and over and over is, you know, my wife's divorcing me and telling the kids that I'm a bad example. And I mean it does, I don't, I don't know if it means to the church do this, but it does to lots of people.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:39:54] They break up their families, they can't make it work and they're hostile about it and they're sowing seeds of more and more misunderstanding to the next generation or to parents or to siblings. And it sucks.

John Dehlin [00:40:08] Yeah. I don't want to make it sound like this always happens or this is church policy, but I certainly have heard many reports of a believing spouse being told by a bishop, you know, this is going to. If this spouse won't honor their covenants, then that's grounds for finding a new spouse.

John Dehlin [00:40:30] And I've heard of even parents. This is even crazy. Let's just say there's a non believing husband and a believing wife. I've heard of parents of the non believing husband encouraging their daughter in law to leave their own son and find a new spouse because the son had lost their faith. And what type, you know, what type of system would cause, you know, a parent to encourage their daughter or son in law to leave their own child It's a crazy mentality that really does break up families. And again, I have a very close friend who was faithful for more than 20 years and recently he came out to his wife and in an otherwise very healthy and happy the surface relationship, her immediate response was I want a divorce.

John Dehlin [00:41:27] And so it happens. And you go on in your article to talk about different statements made by different general authorities that kind of reinforce that mindset. Can you talk about some of these statements that are often made in general conference and in the Ensign.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:41:45] Yeah, I don't like I said, I don't think that they are directly saying any person who decides they don't believe in the church. So I'm going to call that a non believer, you know, is bad or evil or apostate.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:42:00] Certainly it infers that and certainly it says it for those who speak up because I mean, what other conclusion is there? But just to think that when you get told over and over again about Antichrist being among us, I think Carlos AC his talks about many of them are still among us, you know, releasing new floods of lies and false information and all they really want to do is break down your piece.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:42:26] I think he calls them faith killers and he talks about using printed word and electronic media and you know, that's back in, I think his is in the 1980s. But you know, we believe these are words from God. It's spoken in conference and so it gets applied to today. And certainly electronic, you know, word is huge right now. And so anybody that's spreading information is now in line with these Antichrists and anti Mormons and being associated with that the same.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:43:02] I had a talk in there from Claudio Zivic. I can't remember if his was from conference or not, but yeah, it's about how to avoid personal apostasy. The way to do that is not to fall in line with, you know, these like five things that cause apostasy.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:43:17] And so I mean the implication is you shouldn't be around people who would make you do that and those are the people that are apostates and talk about it. So we can't talk about it or else we become in line with those people.

John Dehlin [00:43:29] And it makes sense why the again, why the brethren are so concerned about people talking because talking about it is what leads to empathy which leads to reading. You know, it's just like what happened with you, Bryn. If Jared hadn't have started questioning and talking to you about it, you might not have ever started reading and thinking and talking about it. So it makes logical sense why the continual effort to silence, whether it's intentional or not intentional, and to speak ill of or defame or encourage people to distance themselves from non believers because it really becomes viral.

John Dehlin [00:44:09] And so the only way to respond to a virus is to quarantine, at least in the Mayans. I would just say to those Mormon leaders, you can't escape the Internet these days. You can't escape truth. I think what they should want to do is to create members with commitments to the church so strong that information doesn't affect that.

John Dehlin [00:44:33] And that's a difficult thing. And I think they're trying to do that with the essays and with the new changes to the curriculum, but that just seems like a much more sustainable way than to sort of try and demonize everybody and encourage everybody to distance themselves from those who have doubts or

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:44:51] questions or maybe allow it to be affected without being destroyed like it is for people like Jera Lee who can talk and who can empathize without it destroying everything. And I think that's a much more comfortable place for us all to be in.

John Dehlin [00:45:06] Yeah. So using terms like anti Mormon or apostate or antichrist, all these warnings to not talk and to stay away. I think they're anti family. The church likes to say that it is pro family, Family's the most important thing, and that it's all about family. But this is where things get really difficult. Oftentimes high demand religions and definitely Mormonism can actually be responsible for harming families, for causing stress in families, for dividing families, and ultimately for tearing families apart.

John Dehlin [00:45:46] George writes, I'm slowly being erased from my extended family's history. History. I'm becoming the forgotten, unknown uncle who when once I was the star because I was carrying on the family name and priesthood. And Brian writes, what's so funny is I'm experiencing all the same things because my wife is now a vegan. Not being invited to the family's Father Day barbecue. Not going when we had a late invite because my wife can stand to be a. Cannot. Can stand to be around people like them. It's just ridiculous on both sides. So Brian makes the point that it's not just Mormons and believing Mormons. And I imagine that there's post Mormons that judge and ostracize and alienate believers and demean and criticize those who choose to believe and who even exclude them and ridicule them. And I would say from the Open Stories foundation, both are bad. We need to have love and empathy and tolerance going both directions.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:46:49] I agree. I don't think it has to destroy your position either. I think, you know, a vegan can do their best to kind of stomach the idea that other people are not going to be treating the earth and the animals and anything, you know, the way they want them to. They can go to this party and on the other hand, the people there can say, hey, you know what, could we make you to eat that would be appropriate for you and you can keep your position and make it work. And I think what needs to be happening more is giving us the tools to work in that middle ground. We don't have those tools in Mormonism or really in post Mormonism very much to bridge that gap.

John Dehlin [00:47:27] Yeah. So I hear in your essay a strong plea to Mormon church leaders and to orthodox believers to stop demonizing those who doubt as evil or bad and even referring to them as under the influence of Satan, etc. You write that that's really extreme language, but that it's relevant, that it's pertainable. Right.

Why Former Members Can't Simply Move On

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:47:57] It has to be. Because I was a very deep thinking, believing Mormon and I thought that, I mean, maybe I'm taking my own personal experience and projecting it on too many people, but I've heard other people think that and I thought that, and I feel like I don't think that that's too out of line to say that.

John Dehlin [00:48:18] Yeah. And then I think the point that you bring home in this section that's most important is if the church does end up coming between people and their families, if it does end up dividing families either emotionally or leading to divorce, then of course people are going to want to talk about it. Because their whole family, now not only have they lost their worldview, but now their whole family's been torn apart. Why don't you go and read the last paragraph in this section? It starts with, and if their family just got ruined, if their family just

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:48:55] got ruined by something that not only utterly misunderstands them, but that refuses to. To listen to them for fear that it will lead them astray and that leaves them alone as the one out because it fears talking to them or doesn't know how to talk to them or both, then is it really any wonder why they might want to talk about that? Why they might not be able to just move on from that. I mean, if they seek to listen, to be heard, maybe they can get their spouse back, Maybe they can get their family members to start calling and chatting with them again, to treat them normally.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:49:20] Maybe they can help others feel loved when they are, when they too are questioning. Maybe they can help a sibling or a nephew or a friend or an old home teacher. Maybe they can clear up the misunderstanding. Maybe they can heal relationships. Maybe they can be seen once again as a good father or a good daughter or a good neighbor or just good.

John Dehlin [00:49:40] Yeah, so many people just want to they want to be understood. They want to be heard. They want to help others who might be new to the questions or struggling or uninformed. They want to help out people who are in need. They want to be understood.

John Dehlin [00:49:59] And all of those are the reasons why. And so you're right. And so they're going to talk. They're not going to leave it alone when it affects the very fabric of their relationships, not to mention their worldview. Okay, so you go on to write about Savannah and her post, her testimony that the that was then silenced.

John Dehlin [00:50:23] And I want you to go ahead and read in the next section, and the section is called It Continues to Affect Them, you write how once they leave, they cannot escape it. And this is, you know, I've actually seen many articles over the years dealing with this topic of leaving the church and not being able to leave it alone. And basically what but the argument post Mormons often make is the church won't leave me alone. The church keeps calling. They keep sending out people to try and save us. They keep bringing cookies by. They keep trying to keep our kids in the church. They keep judging us.

John Dehlin [00:51:01] They exclude us from things. If those of you who checked out Jen Parkinson's interview from last week, you know, many times non believers get disinvited from family events when they used to be invited. And so it's not like you can just leave the church and then it's all unicorns and lollipops and jelly beans and rainbows. Oftentimes you're continually barraged by missionaries, by well intended ward members, by family members that send you articles that you didn't want, or they subscribe to the Ensign for you, and those Ensigns arrive in your mailbox and you're disinvited to things and marginalized and ostracized. Go ahead and read that paragraph that starts it surrounds their families.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:51:49] It surrounds their families, their communities, often their neighborhoods. It checks in on them from time to time, invites them with ulterior motives to hang out. It writes them random, often anonymous warnings about how they're going to hell. It tells them they're ruining their children. It refuses to let their children play with its children, crosses them off of potential spouse lists. It prays for them to turn from their wickedness and it tells them as much. It posts passive aggressive memes knowing they'll see them. It calls them on Sunday and tells them what a wonderful time it had in church and how they're missing out on so much.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:52:19] It pans up and down when it sees them eyeing their completely normal but I guess it would say worldly clothing choices. It feels a surge of righteousness. It's standing boldly and loudly in print or spoken word against how they act or even who they are. It misunderstands them. It fears them, it judges them. Call it righteous judgment, call it pity, call it caring. But spoken or silent, it is judgment. And it leaves them substantively alone but practically bombarded by Mormonism.

John Dehlin [00:52:48] Go and read the next. The next little section.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:52:51] And so even those who have emotionally moved on and who have made new communities and relationships are prodded and poked and pushed and prompted and provoked. So they're going to talk. They're not going to leave it alone when it continues to refuse to do the same for them.

John Dehlin [00:53:04] Yeah, I really love that they are bombarded. They're substantively alone, but bombarded by Mormonism. So the church doesn't leave us alone. And so of course we're not going to go silent. Or at least many of us won't. Mary, this is interesting. Mary writes, I grew up in the Worldwide Church of Grand God, which went from cult under Herbert Armstrong to evangelical Christianity.

John Dehlin [00:53:33] HWA took some doctrines from Mormonism. That is how I began researching the LDS Church. The missionaries visited me several times recently. Also, I found Mormon stories, and I'm shocked at the similarities. I was disfellowshipped and I'm very shunned by my mom still, even though she doesn't even have a church to attend anymore. The control is still there from all the years of brainwashing. I had friends, Mary. I had friends growing up who were in the Worldwide Church of God.

John Dehlin [00:54:01] Mary, I'd love to have you on Mormon Stories podcast to tell your story. So please reach out to me and we want to schedule you. Yeah, a lot of people think that if the church somehow were to be harmed or destroyed, that this would all end. But the truth is we know from the movie Spotlight in the Catholic Church that you can have systemic child abuse worldwide and the church still thrives.

John Dehlin [00:54:27] So this stuff isn't going away. And that's a really powerful story that Mary's mom doesn't even have a church to attend and she's still feeling the effects of having left that church. Larry writes, they've followed me for 30 years. I even asked to be on the do not contact list. And they still keep coming.

John Dehlin [00:54:49] Everything else you said, magazine subscriptions, transcripts of Mormon talks, etc. Julie writes something that's really important because oftentimes, you know, families aren't overtly mean or rude. But Julie writes, it's often the emotional distancing in my family that still kills me. Since leaving the church years ago, I'm not sure it's anyone's fault. I left the club, and in the club is where my family bonds. And that's just true. So many Mormons, all they talk about is Mormonism. And they talk about their callings, they talk about the mission, they talk about the latest thing at church or general conference. And so there's this question of what are we going to talk about now?

John Dehlin [00:55:35] Because maybe I love science now. Maybe I love, you know, a TV show or a really great movie, or maybe I'm into, you know, new things that I'm exploring. But do my Mormon family and friends even want to talk about that? Does that connect with you in any way, Bryn?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:55:53] Yeah, for sure. And I think maybe one of the things that's helped me be able to bridge some of that is when I first started my job out here in Colorado, I had a couple of colleagues who were just really interested, not in Mormonism, but in talking to me about Mormonism. And so I had all these conversations. One of my good friends, Erin Hogan, I talked to her, you know, for hours about what I believed and what she believed. And it was fascinating. It was fascinating. And at the time, I was still traditional, believing. It didn't change my beliefs and I didn't feel like I needed to change hers. I didn't feel like I needed to save her. And it was just very enjoyable. So I thought, well, here's this thing. Why can't we do this thing all the time in our families?

John Dehlin [00:56:40] Absolutely. All right, well, we're nearing the end of the article. In the article, you end by with the section, mormonism colored me. What were you trying to say? If you don't mind, why don't you just read how you close the article?

Mormonism as Identity and the Grief of Leaving

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:56:57] Sure. Mormonism colored me. It is part of who I am. It is woven throughout all my childhood memories. It is. It is the entire foundation of my college years. It was the guiding force for my first post grad school job, for my move to Colorado, for my choice to have children. Luckily, I think that the logical parts of me were secretly at play in these decisions as well. Whether I accept its teachings or not now. How profoundly ridiculous it would be to think that I would just never talk about it again. Why on earth would I leave it and then leave it alone? This is the sentiment of a thousand voices who are all trained to sing under the guidance of a Sunday hymn.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:57:30] So you can take that sentiment and apply meaning to it if you want. This must mean that Satan has it out for the church, and Satan must have it out for the church, because it's true. And then you can give that sentiment a little catchphrase. People can leave the church, but they can't leave the church alone. And you can continue to feel biased about that position. Or you can listen. I think you're muted again.

John Dehlin [00:57:51] Yeah, I love that. Or you can listen. I loved. I love the way you ended. And that's the trick. Is that all so many post Mormons want. Questioning Mormons, liberal Mormons, they just want to be listened to. And yet it's. That's. You know, I wrote in the very beginning of the article, is this even possible?

John Dehlin [00:58:20] Is it possible, Brynne, to have a believing, orthodox mindset and to listen? Because so much of a Mormon testimony is based on emotion. It's based on the youth conference experience. It's based on love for family, it's based on love for community. It's based on a sense of security for the things that the church offers you, like a sense of identity, answers to questions about death, what the purpose of life is. All of those things inform why someone oftentimes believes, and they're very emotional.

John Dehlin [00:59:01] And so listening means you open yourself up and literally, you open your mind up to hearing things that could threaten and challenge your worldview. And so I think that's why listening is such a simple request, Brynne. And I think it's almost unreasonable to ask for someone who cherishes their religious beliefs. What do you think about that?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:59:25] I think it has to be possible because it was. It was for me. I listened to Jared. I listened to him little by little. I think that everything needs to be, for a lot of people, slow. And I think everybody is emotional, whether you think you are or not.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:59:43] You can conclude logically one way or the other on any given argument based on how you feel about it emotionally. And one of the ways that's applicable is Mormon doctrine is broad and vast, and it has so many opportunities for you to validate listening. I validated listening to Jared through Second Corinthians. I validate listening to other people's experiences because I'm supposed to be a member missionary. How do I be A member missionary. If I can't be out in world the, the world, you can take what you have and if you feel emotionally driven to do so, you can logic your way there. Unfortunately, that's how logic works.

Brynne Thomas Gant [01:00:22] I think too often we think it's separate from emotion and it's not. So if you can change your emotion to be, you know, you love this person and you want to still have a relationship with these, you know, a community or a person or someone in your family, then you get yourself there through your own doctrine and maybe you take it slowly, but you still go.

John Dehlin [01:00:45] Absolutely. And that's why I love your case as an example of where this is possible. But you have to admit it's really hard and it's really scary.

Brynne Thomas Gant [01:00:53] Right.

John Dehlin [01:00:53] And look how you end up. Bryn, isn't it fair to say you're the cautionary tale of what happens when you listen?

Brynne Thomas Gant [01:01:00] Maybe. But I mean, what about Jeralee who's commented today? She, you know, she was listening to her son. She's not afraid anymore and she's where she is and she's, she's strong and she's glad to be there and her son's where he is.

John Dehlin [01:01:15] Yeah, and I would agree. My, my, my parents on both sides are still believers and, and they've listened to me. My sister has listened to me and she's still very much a believer and it's very much possible. So I think people should have hope. I was just trying to touch on the part that it really isn't just a simple ask, it is a scary, terrifying ask. And there are many people that just don't want to go there.

Brynne Thomas Gant [01:01:44] Right? Absolutely. I mean, I can't tell you how many times I, I had a simple conversation, maybe 10 minutes long with Jared and then I spend the night bawling and listening to Mumford Sons on repeat. You know, like there's, I mean, but then you wait a week and then you have another 10 minute conversation and then you understand where that person's coming from, how they feel. And you don't have to accept what they say. And you can if you want. I did. Because that's what felt honest to me.

John Dehlin [01:02:13] Right. I love it. Hector writes. And this is my good friend Hector. This was the first Father's Day that not a single one of my five true believing Mormon adult children contacted me to say, happy Father's Day. Hector writes, I left the church in January 2014 after 43 years. So love you, Hector.

John Dehlin [01:02:35] We're standing with you during a difficult time. We're so Sorry that that's how your kids have responded. Holly writes, when your fundamental beliefs change, so do the fundamentals of all your relationships. Some can survive that change, some cannot.

John Dehlin [01:02:52] It is like grieving the death of relationship that will never be the same. And that's true. Not only are non believers and questioners grieving the death of their orthodoxy and their worldview, but believers are grieving the death of their visions of a celestial family where no one's left behind and everybody. There's no empty chairs and everybody's together up in the afterlife. And it's difficult and a matter of grieving for both sides. And I appreciate Holly for reminding us of that. Kathy writes asking us to be a little bit more balanced. She writes, how is not inviting believers to events being bombarded? If you have immediate family who hasn't left the church that's part of their life still, what is the answer?

Navigating Relationships Across the Faith Divide

John Dehlin [01:03:39] Do you want to be invited or do you not want to be invited? I think each individual would have a different preference. And I think there are levels of leaving the church just as levels of conversion. There's no handbook to understand each individual's journey. Throw believing families a bone here. Their intent is not malicious. What would you say to Kathy? That's a good point. Yeah.

Brynne Thomas Gant [01:04:01] You know, when you were talking earlier about how much people get bombarded with it, I wanted to say a lot of that is valid. If you believe that the way to make people happy is to give them a doctrine, eternally happy. I don't think that you should be as faulted as we sometimes fault you for spreading that, for taking that to people, for, you know, and you've been told you do this by visiting teaching and home teaching, and that's how you do it. So that's valid, and I think it needs to be valid. But we're not talking about necessarily the actions themselves always being the problem they are for some people, but we're talking about the actions being a problem.

Brynne Thomas Gant [01:04:41] You then say that I can't talk about the actions. We're saying we need to listen to how we feel about it. And everybody's experience is individual. So you need to ask the individual. You know, when I was still believing and I was assigned to visiting teachers, I would first ask each person, are you interested in being visit taught? Is this even something you want? And if so, like, are you okay with, you know, how should we do this? Because the church has subscribed a way to do it. But I'm uncomfortable being told to be your friend. And yet I would like to get to know you. So yes or no? Do you want this? Listen. You just need to ask and listen.

John Dehlin [01:05:18] Yeah, I love it. I'm really grateful for Kathy's challenge of us and her highlighting the fact that it really is a paradox because if you leave the church and everybody just sort of leaves you alone to give you space, then you're angry because people, you know, you can be angry because people have sort of, you know, ghosted you, or they're distanced from you or you feel isolated. But then if they engage with you, sometimes you can feel bombarded. And so I appreciate Kathy highlighting that paradox. But, Bryn, I think you give a really good response to Kathy, which is, well, why don't you just ask what would you like?

John Dehlin [01:06:00] What would you not like? What would work for you? How can I be a support? And I think that goes both ways. I think non believers can ask that of believers and believers can ask that of non believers. What are the boundaries that we can have in our relationship where we can both feel safe, where we can both feel supported, and we can both learn and listen and empathize with each other and carve out a new relationship where we both feel respected? That's reasonable, right?

Brynne Thomas Gant [01:06:26] I think people feel awkward sometimes being that practical about their relationships. And yet when you actually do it, it doesn't end up feeling as awkward as you think it's going to, to have that kind of a conversation. And it's not just about, you know, how often should we talk to each other? How should we talk to each other, but what should we talk about? That's one of the issues I think people have. They don't get invited to the family barbecue, which, why not? But then they do get asked to be home taught, which is all based on, you know, doctrine and religion. So why is it that you can share the religion with me, but not yourself, not your, not your personal life? That feels harsh for a lot of people who are not in the church.

John Dehlin [01:07:02] Absolutely. I'll read a few more comments from our listeners. Melissa writes, it's almost like a death, and everyone has to adapt to a new normal. Barb writes, I think communication is the key. Kathy. I haven't told my family that I don't believe any longer, and so I'm not offended at all. When they invite us, they're acting out of love. If at some point I come out to them, we will have to have those conversations.

John Dehlin [01:07:29] Paul writes, when a church stops listening, how can it continue to respond to the needs of its members? Instead, we're advised to Doubt our doubts, keep silent and don't share your concerns and questions with others. Thanks Paul, for sharing that. Patricia writes great article, great podcast.

John Dehlin [01:07:47] Hector expresses love. I mean, Becca expresses love for Hector who's going through a whole hard time. All right. And Jennifer writes awesome podcast, y'. All. Thank you. And I think she's posting the flag from Chile. It's either Chile or Texas, but either way, thanks, Jennifer, for the kind words. All right. So Bryn, what's the response been to your article? Has it been silence? Has it been outpouring?

Brynne Thomas Gant [01:08:14] I mean, so far there's only a few comments in. People have just been kind, you know, sharing their positions about. Well, you know, some people need to do, need to learn how to move on. And I think that those were valid points. I haven't had a lot of like backlash which I, I would expect. I think in something that's being read this much. I'm really surprised at how much this resonated with people. I'm really glad that it did. But so far no hate mail. I'll go check. Maybe I have new ones.

John Dehlin [01:08:46] Does it say how many reads so far, how many views? And also have any family or have any close family or friends reached out to you?

Brynne Thomas Gant [01:08:57] Yeah, so it has 16.2 thousand views.

John Dehlin [01:09:00] That's great.

Brynne Thomas Gant [01:09:01] Yeah. And then I had a second cousin reach out to me and just sort of validate and say, you know, thanks for sharing, I'm glad that you've been honest. And you know, he shared with me that he's honest in his decision to stay and he's. And I believe that he's a very good, honest person. So that was very nice. And other than that, I mean sometimes I receive some like hate mail stuff like I've said, people saying I'm going to hell. Nobody's really said that this time.

John Dehlin [01:09:28] Not yet.

Brynne Thomas Gant [01:09:29] All right, not yet. Now they will.

John Dehlin [01:09:32] Well, that's been great. Well, I just want to thank. Oh, Jennifer clarifies it's Texas, not Chile. We're glad that she is tuning in from Texas. Corinna writes we are not only not invited, but not even told about baptisms, blessings, etc. Our kids especially feel ignored and are hurt at not being told about the events of their cousins lives. It would be nice to at least know what is going on in family members lives. And Karina, I can relate to that. We've been not invited to graduations and baptisms and we wouldn't be disruptive. We would be supportive of people's baptisms and confirmation and priesthood ordinations. But at some point, many times those invitations stop coming.

John Dehlin [01:10:15] And that's sad when that happens. And there are family members who won't speak to me, who literally will leave the house when I come visit. And that's hard. But again, I don't really. It's hard to hold it against anybody because everybody's just trying to cope in the way that they know how. And it's just a mess.

John Dehlin [01:10:36] It's just a mess, isn't it? All right, Bryn, so what final comments or suggestions would you have for our listeners or any final insight you want to share?

Hopes for Transformation and Closing Thoughts

Brynne Thomas Gant [01:10:50] You know, like you said, it's a mess, right? But life is a mess. And one of the things that I find most enthralling in life is finding an opportunity for transformation. And you don't find an opportunity for transformation unless you have a mess. Because cleaning up something clean is not a transformation. And so, you know, take your mess, maybe it's not all up to you. And so maybe you can't fix it on your own because somebody else is unwilling. But find the friend or the cousin or the aunt or the whatever family member that is willing to be open to you.

Brynne Thomas Gant [01:11:28] Start taking the steps on either side. You know, maybe you're not inviting them to the baptism because you think they'd be offended, but then call them up and say, hey, I know you're not out of the church. I don't know how you feel about the church, but we're having a baptism. Do you want to come? I mean, other churches do this all the time. Lots of non Catholics attend Catholic christenings.

Brynne Thomas Gant [01:11:47] We can do that. So find that person who you think is open and call them or text them or talk to them or ask them how they feel and you'll see that transformation.

John Dehlin [01:11:59] I love it. Are you hopeful, are you hopeful that these bridges can be created? That someday there can be a point where faithful, orthodox believing Mormons can harmoniously live side by side in families and communities with post Mormons and non believing Mormons?

Brynne Thomas Gant [01:12:18] Not categorically, but I don't think that anything changes categorically. The idea is to affect certain people that are willing and open to it.

John Dehlin [01:12:27] But maybe things can get better.

Brynne Thomas Gant [01:12:28] I think so. You know, I was surprised joining some communities of post Mormons to find out how much was so overt. I didn't realize how many people would, it would have a mother literally come to them and say, you're evil or you're bad. And so it's much more insurmountable than I thought initially. However, I also have My mother and my father, who are very, you know, they're a little bit. They're a little silent. So you don't. Sometimes you feel judged by them, but at the same time, they're very accepting and open in other ways. And so that gives me hope. My own story gives me hope. I think that it's possible, at least in some places, some with some people.

John Dehlin [01:13:15] I love it. Well, Bryn Thomas Gantt, the article is entitled they Can Leave the Church, But They Can't Leave the Church Alone. You can link to it. We'll put it on the show. Notes of the podcast. When we put it up, we want to invite people to share the article, want to invite people to comment on it. And Bryn, we just want to thank you for having the courage to write this article and for trying to be a part of the solution.

Brynne Thomas Gant [01:13:38] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:13:40] Also, thanks for coming on Mormon Stories for a second time. It's always great to have you and we hope to have you back again.

Brynne Thomas Gant [01:13:46] Sure thing. I'm. Like I said, I'm not just an open book. I'm an open library. So you can ask me anytime, anybody's welcome to ask me things. And I hope that this resonates and helps some relationships.

John Dehlin [01:13:57] Thanks, Bryn. It's great to have you. And I'll just close by thanking all of our listeners. We had hundreds and hundreds of people join in to this episode, which was really great. We weren't sure how popular it would be this early in the morning, but we kind of found out about this over the weekend and for Bryn's schedule, we needed to kind of make it early. So we want to thank everyone for tuning in.

John Dehlin [01:14:24] It says that 5.5 thousand people viewed it. 17.99 4,000 people were reached. We know that that's going to extend to people listening asynchronously through the podcast. So we just want to thank everybody who tuned in, everyone who commented, everyone who made suggestions.

John Dehlin [01:14:46] Doing this live is often fun and it really helps make it more engaging and interactive. So thanks to everyone who joins us for our Facebook Live discussions. We also want to thank everyone who tunes in through the podcast or through YouTube.

John Dehlin [01:15:02] This conversation can continue, so please don't hesitate to go to MormonStories.org and make comments or questions there in the blog. Also, those of you on YouTube watching later, there can be conversations there as well, so please feel free to continue the conversation. We want to thank Amy Grubbs and Cody Layton, who are part of the OSF staff, along with the Open Stories foundation board, the board and the staff keep everything alive.

John Dehlin [01:15:31] Those of you who donate to Mormon Stories or the Oba Stories foundation, your donations go to the mission of the foundation and to allow us to have the staff we need to do things right, to run in an efficient and in a effective and in a transparent way, to do the marketing that we need to get this information out, to hold the events that we hold, to be able to not only support people in their deconstruction of their worldviews that aren't healthy, but also to construct new lives.

John Dehlin [01:16:06] So if you do not donate to Mormon Stories or the Open Stories foundation and you find these programs valuable and you want to see them continue, please consider today a donation. $10 a month, $25 a month can really keep us alive. So please consider supporting us. If you don't, don't forget our other podcasts, the Thoughtful Faith Podcast with Gina Colvin, Mormon Matters Podcast with Dan Witherspoon, Mormon Mental Health Podcast with Natasha Helfer Parker, and of course, as a part of Mormon Stories, my dear wife Margi joins me for Mormon Transitions themed podcasts where we help people in their transition. And this is one of those episodes.

John Dehlin [01:16:46] We did it so early that Margi couldn't join us, but she'll be joining us for our next episode as we continue our series on supporting people who are trying to stay faithful in the church as unorthodox or untraditional Mormons. So join us more for that as well. Again, we just want to thank everyone for tuning in. We really appreciate all the Support. Check out MormonStories.org events for the upcoming events in your area and stay tuned for more incredible, transformative content from the Open Stories Foundation. All right, Bryn, thanks again. So great to have you. Please take care.

Brynne Thomas Gant [01:17:19] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:17:21] And everybody else take care. Thanks for joining us and we'll talk to you again soon on Mormon Stories. See you everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.