Introduction and Gabrielle's Background

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is June 17, 2025. Today we're going to be answering the question, what's it like to be raised as a non Mormon kid and teen in Utah? And I would say in one of the most heavily Mormon areas of Utah today it's going to be the Farmington Davis area. And then what happens when life circumstances get you to the point where you feel like the best thing for your life might be to convert to the Mormon Church? And then what happens in the aftermath? And there's sort of a theme of converting to Mormonism, at least in part under social pressure. And so that's what we're going to be covering today. And we're super excited to have with us Gabby Zelaya. Hey, Gabby.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:52] Hi.

John Dehlin [00:00:53] The thanks for being willing to tell us your Mormon story. This is an important one.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:00:56] Of course. I'm so excited to be here. Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:01:00] And of course we have with us today, I'm so grateful to have Margi Dehlin as co host. Hey, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:07] Hi.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:01:07] Hello there.

John Dehlin [00:01:09] So is there anything else I missed as sort of the teasers for, for your interview, Gabby?

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:01:14] I, I think that's right. Yeah, I think that sums it up.

John Dehlin [00:01:17] And there will be some, maybe some, you know, intense mental health themes that we should just let people know. Maybe even some self harm or even possibly some suicidal ideation discussion. So just be warned, be thoughtful about your own self care and about the care of anyone who might be listening or viewing this episode. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:40] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:01:41] All right. And, and I'll just say, people write me all the time saying can you please give voice to the experience of being a non Mormon in Utah? So I know there's a lot of audience members that are really grateful that you're helping give voice to that experience.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:01:59] Oh, great. I'm so glad that I could come tell my story and hopefully just bring some perspective to that part of the experience living in Utah.

John Dehlin [00:02:11] All right, well, Gabby, let's begin. Did, did your parents move here? Were they born here? Maybe we should start there.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:02:20] Yeah, let's start there. Both my parents were raised Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:02:25] Okay.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:02:27] I think my mom was more orthodox than my dad's family, but they were both baptized Mormon and by the time they were teenagers, they both had kind of definitely left the lifestyle. But I think like into their early 20s they were still LDS.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:53] And then do you know what took them out of the church?

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:02:56] So my mom, I know, had some really bad experiences and experienced her own faith Crisis in her early 20s. And then it wasn't until I was maybe 5 or 6 that she sent a letter to have her name removed from records. And she received a letter back saying that she wasn't able to do that without the priest holder like signing off on it. So I, I don't want to say what she did, but she made it happen.

John Dehlin [00:03:30] Okay.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:03:31] So both of my parents had their names removed from records at that point. And we as a family tried like some different churches and kind of landed on Presbyterian. We weren't super involved. We, we kind of went on Christmas and Easter and. But we were in like a religious household.

John Dehlin [00:03:51] How many, how many siblings?

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:03:52] I have three siblings.

John Dehlin [00:03:54] And where are you in the birth order?

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:03:55] I'm the third. So when my parents met, they both had a child already. My mom had a son, my older brother, and my dad had a daughter, my older sister. And then they met and my mom got pregnant and kind of, it was kind of like a shotgun wedding. Like my, my grandma was like, you guys like need to get married. And so they did. And then I also have a younger sister in the mix.

Family Culture Growing Up Outside the Church

John Dehlin [00:04:23] Okay, and you say your family culture was not Mormon and not religious. So was it secular? Was it a strong family culture? Was it not much of a fam. What was your family culture like?

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:04:37] So I will say like all my extended family, my grandparents, cousins, everybody else is active LDs still. And that had it like, you know, like with my parents getting married and stuff, that had a big influence on our family still. And it is interesting because we weren't religious, but I still felt a lot of the Mormon culture influenced my family and like how my parents raised us. I, I still feel like was like culturally pretty Mormon, if that makes sense. I think in the early years for sure, things got pretty turbulent in my family and between my parents at a pretty early age. They were still separated probably like five or six times before they divorced when I was 12. And yeah, that was definitely hard.

John Dehlin [00:05:37] That sounds rough. I'm sorry for that. Did, were either of your parents, you mentioned they, they both had strong LDS families. Is that right? There's this thing in Utah where really devout, tight knit Mormon families will all gather for Sunday dinners at grandma and grandpa's house and all the cousins are there and the aunts and uncles are there or you know, big family reunions where everyone gets together and you know, you could say everyone's supporting each other or you could say everybody's in everybody else's business. Did. Were either your mom's side of the family or your dad's side of the family, Those types of Utah Mormon families. And if so, what was that like to be kind of the, I don't know, black sheeps or like the non Mormon family in one or both of those super tight knit, multi generational Utah Mormon families.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:06:39] Exactly. Yep. So Sunday dinners at my grandma's house.

John Dehlin [00:06:44] Your mom's mom or dad's mom?

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:06:45] My mom's mom.

John Dehlin [00:06:47] And where was that? Like you're in Farmington there.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:06:49] Where Bountiful.

John Dehlin [00:06:49] Oh, okay.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:06:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:51] So that's. And this is. Maybe describe Farmington and Bountiful really quick.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:06:55] Okay. So well, and Farmington's different now. So they have the big shopping mall, lots of restaurants. It wasn't like that when I grew up. There was a Burger King and a Subway. That was it. And as grocery store. But yeah, just really small town feel. I cannot recall a single person I knew like in elementary school who was not lds. Everything we, we were in a cul de sac, like in a like sub, you know, suburban neighborhood and everyone was Mormon. It. It felt like except for us there, you know, churches on every block. You know, Bountiful's very similar.

John Dehlin [00:07:39] Yeah.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:07:40] Does that kind of.

John Dehlin [00:07:41] Yeah. And like, what about the culture of like girls or teen. Teenage girls and dress and gossip and boys and popular culture and then we'll get back to your, your grandparents and that. That's.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:07:54] I mean I, I can recall like even elementary school age hearing little boys talk about missions, all the little girls talking about activity days. I was invited a lot, like almost weekly getting calls and people were very friendly when it came to inviting me to the activity days or mutual or. I, I think that's what it's called. Right.

John Dehlin [00:08:18] Were you on the rolls? Were you ever confirmed as a baby or baptized such.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:08:23] Nope.

John Dehlin [00:08:23] Your name was on the list?

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:08:25] Nope.

John Dehlin [00:08:25] Okay.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:08:25] Nope. None of my. I think my older brother might have been blessed, but that was the extent of our involvement. Okay. So.

Margi Dehlin [00:08:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:35] And like. Okay, so highly religious, you know, you

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:08:40] know, surroundings, very like very modest clothing.

John Dehlin [00:08:45] Meaning what?

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:08:47] Always like short sleeve shirt, shorts down to the knee.

Margi Dehlin [00:08:53] So basically children being dressed in elementary school, four garments like that they would be.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:09:01] Oh yeah. And I knew and because of how much it was talked about, it wasn't talked about in my home. I knew a lot about Mormonism from a very young age. Just from at school and, and things like that.

John Dehlin [00:09:15] You're kind of swimming in it.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:09:16] Oh yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:17] Okay. So back to these Sundays or family reunions with grandparents, your mom's mom and dad, you were saying?

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:09:24] Yep. So My mom's mom. That was. Over the years. It's better now. Just like with my mom, that was a strained relationship, just because even at a young age, it felt like she was always kind of disappointed we got baptized.

John Dehlin [00:09:42] Your grandma was disappointed in your mom.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:09:44] Yeah. And like, us as grandchildren and, like, really wanted us to be lds. It, like, I could feel that at a very young age that, like, something is kind of off with this relationship and. And I love her. I would never want to offend her or any. Of course I love her, but we were baptized Presbyterian, I think when I was, like, eight or nine, she came and she was crying, like, in the pews.

John Dehlin [00:10:11] And not.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:10:12] Not a happy cry. No, she. She was, like, devastated.

John Dehlin [00:10:16] Yeah. Okay.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:10:17] So it was hard. And like. Like, she. Yeah. She's extremely orthodox, and that's been a rough relationship between her and my mom because my mom didn't really want us to have anything to do with the church after she had left.

John Dehlin [00:10:31] Yeah.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:10:33] Which was hard where we grew up.

Margi Dehlin [00:10:35] Yeah.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:10:35] It was, like, inevitable.

John Dehlin [00:10:37] So would you go to those Sunday dinners with aunts and uncles and cousins? And if so, did it feel cruddy or did you skip those, or.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:10:45] No, we were. We were there. Like, my mom, despite leaving the church, she still wanted a family culture, like, more than anything.

John Dehlin [00:10:53] With extended family.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:10:54] With extended family.

Margi Dehlin [00:10:55] It was just.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:10:56] It was really strained.

Margi Dehlin [00:10:57] Yeah.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:10:58] We couldn't relate to them.

Margi Dehlin [00:11:00] Yeah. I think that is something that is, well, how would I say it? Brilliant. I don't know about the church in that it kind of creates in family cultures. The church at home.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:11:16] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:11:17] Right. So when you're at home, the church shows up through this family system of. And so when you leave, you know, especially in Utah, where there are these families that gather on. On Sundays, not only are you experiencing otheredness with your family, which can feel very sad. Very. Right. But also you feel this, I don't know, tremendous pressure of. Of trying. Of conforming because of that, I think. Right.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:11:53] 100. It's like. It's hard not to feel like there's something wrong with your family because everyone around you is the same. You know, I would go spend the weekend at my cousin's house and, like, it was just so different than my family. And. Yeah. They'd have that Sunday dinner. And, you know, from just a really young age, you start thinking, like, why. Why doesn't my family do this on Sundays? Or it's just from the very beginning, you start feeling like, what's wrong with my family? I remember that kind of being my. My Thought process for whatever reason.

Margi Dehlin [00:12:30] Yeah.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:12:30] You know, can I ask you a

Margi Dehlin [00:12:33] sensitive question around this? I'm curious if, you know, there's a. A kind of a. It's not intentional always, but this conditional love model. Right. And it's. It's ironic because you'll. You can have adult children in this Utah system of family systems. Right. Who return home, but they're in their 30s or 40s and when they walk in that door, they're like kids. Right. They're treated like they're young still. And the parents are the center and their parents needs and wishes for you are the center. And so I'm curious if, you know, as you got older, did you feel a sense that the love or interest, like from your grandparents was different than, say, members, the grandchildren who were members, or does that make sense?

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:13:29] Yeah, that makes perfect sense. And absolutely. And I don't want to jump ahead. We'll get there. But when I. That really occurred to me when I got baptized and how draw in the Presbyterian. Oh, LDS got baptized. LDS in the future. And how the relationship. And we'll get into that. But how the relationship shifted it. That's when it really all came together to me. I'm like, oh, this was really conditional.

Margi Dehlin [00:13:54] But as a child.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:13:55] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:13:55] Do you have memories of just noticing inequity? I guess I'm trying to say at those family gatherings of like, wow, Grandma went to so and so's activity or. Or even just interest in engagement. Like, do you remember as a child being able to perceive. Wait a second. Like, things feel a little bit like, different.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:14:17] Yeah. And I know exactly what you mean. And it's hard to explain because my grandma was present for us. She. She was there on every birthday. She was at soccer games. She was great. It's hard to explain. The feeling was different.

Margi Dehlin [00:14:31] Got it.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:14:31] And there were things we experienced. I know, that other kids didn't like. You know, we were a Mormon, so I was wearing tank tops and shorts and it was always an issue. My grandma would make comments about, like, what we were wearing or even like, call my mom after the visit and be like, you know, tell her like, hey, like, your little girls shouldn't be wearing things like that. And it all. It just felt like it was crushing when that happened because I, like, I knew I had disappointed her, but I knew that wasn't a shared experience like with the other family members who are members.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:02] Yeah. Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:15:03] It's rough because you've already said it. We don't want to dump on grandma or grandpa.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:15:07] No.

John Dehlin [00:15:08] And they're just acting like every other Mormon grandparent.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:15:11] You know, they're wonderful. They're wonderful people. I have a relationship with them today. They have a relationship with my son. But, you know, this is part of the story. It's just what I experienced.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:21] Yeah. And it's part of the system. It is Mormonism.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:15:25] It's just the system. It's the training or.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:29] Yes.

Feeling Pressure to Belong as a Never-Mormon in Utah

John Dehlin [00:15:31] So did that make you or your siblings, like, constantly want to ask your parents, why don't we join? Why haven't we joined? Can we join? Like, did y' all feel, as kids, pressure to want to conform?

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:15:44] That's a great question. It's not something I've discussed with my siblings a lot. I know it's not something we vocalized, but I know for me, it was a constant internal conversation with myself, and I'm not sure if my siblings shared that.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:59] That's.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:16:00] That's something I. I should definitely talk to them about, but I haven't.

John Dehlin [00:16:04] But for you, did you ever say, mom and dad, why don't we join? I want to join.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:16:08] As a kid, I was the one who was like, why can't. Why aren't we Mormon? Why can't we be Mormon? And my. My mom, I think at the time, she really had, like, a hatred toward it. She was really bitter after leaving, and so it wasn't something I think she wanted to talk about a whole lot or she. She didn't have good things to say.

John Dehlin [00:16:28] Did she tell you why she felt hatred for the church? I've learned that there's a taboo against anger in Mormonism, and sometimes I think that's put in place by believers so that. So that people leave the church will be disempowered.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:16:46] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:16:47] Um, because I think anger is valid, especially when you've been really hurt.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:16:50] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:51] So did your mom ever tell you when you were growing up why she was so angry?

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:16:56] I know now.

John Dehlin [00:16:57] Okay.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:16:57] Not at the time. I just knew. Mom doesn't like this. Mom thinks this is bad, but I had no idea why at a young age.

John Dehlin [00:17:05] But you felt pulled to want to join from an early age, join the church?

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:17:09] Yeah. I mean, my family just looked different. I mean, my. My. I have no problem saying, like, my parents were not in love with each other, and I would, you know, go to other people's houses, and I. Their houses felt warm and, like, their parents loved each other. And I just, like, accounted that to Mormonism. And I'm like. I just knew from a young age, I'm like, I want my. I want like, to be in love. I want to have a happy family. I wish my family was like that. And I just thought, I'm like, it must be being Mormon. That's what it is. That's what separates my family from that happiness.

Margi Dehlin [00:17:43] Don't you feel that so hard? That just makes all the sense from a child's perspective. Yeah.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:17:49] My two plus two equals four. I need to be Mormon if I'm ever going to have a happy family.

John Dehlin [00:17:54] And weirdly, it's the. It's the core theme of the south park episode called all about the Mormons. If you've seen it, there are these kids, these four south park kids in total dysfunctional homes. And then a Mormon kid moves into the neighborhood, and his family's like, singing in a band together and doing family home eating and playing games and making desserts and. And these, the kids just like, I want to be Mormon, mom and dad,

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:18:17] I want to be Mormon. Yeah. Maybe if we were Mormon, my parents would love each other or, you know, we'd be more connected as a family. Like, that must be what's stopping us, I think, is what my logic told me.

John Dehlin [00:18:28] Okay. Wow. Okay. Okay. So how did things advance for you? And you're into adolescence, I guess.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:18:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:38] So like I said, got divorced when you were 12?

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:18:41] When I was about 12, yeah. Yeah. That was a hard time. And again, I was just surrounded by Mormon families who. Yeah, I didn't have any friends whose parents were divorced or anything like that. And so when I got into high school, it was so hard to make friends. I think a lot of kids starting high school know each other from church and they have kind of, like built in friends already. And so starting high school was super lonely.

John Dehlin [00:19:14] This is Davis High School.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:19:15] Davis High School.

John Dehlin [00:19:16] Okay.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:19:17] I don't know. Did I jump too far?

John Dehlin [00:19:18] No, no, no, no. David starts. Go. Davis starts.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:19:20] Go. David starts. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:24] Okay. So super lonely. Okay. So you didn't, like, make friends in elementary and middle school that you brought in high school with you?

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:19:31] No, I. As long as I can remember, I really struggled making friends. And I think. I think I really felt like it was because I wasn't Mormon. Maybe there were other factors, but generally, like, people weren't really allowed to come to my house. And not everyone said that point blank, but I didn't. There were not friends over at our house a lot. It was like, very much like, you've got to come to our house. And there were a couple people who straight up said, like, you're not allowed to come to my house because you're not Mormon. And so making friendships was. And connections was really hard. And that just continued into high school.

John Dehlin [00:20:10] Okay, that sounds really severe. Are you saying you think or know that there were parents that wouldn't let their kids go to your house because it was a non Mormon household?

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:20:24] 102 people specifically point blank told me, like, I'm not allowed to hang out with you because you're not Mormon. Or, or I heard sometimes, like, I can hang out with you if you come to my activity days, like if we hang out there at the church or.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:41] Yeah.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:20:41] Or whatever. So it, it wasn't. I mean, some of. After those things happen, I could kind of assume. I'm like, yeah, it kind of seems like they're not really allowed to hang out with me. Or, you know, they keep their distance from me because I'm not Mormon. But for sure, I was told straight up a couple times.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:59] Yeah. Yep. I am not shocked by that. Just from our experience in living in Logan, which is kind of another very Mormon. Yeah.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:21:11] And kids are really blunt. So I don't know if the parents were like, hey, you can't hang out with her. It might have been more general. And then, you know, the kid comes and it's just super blunt. I'm not, I'm not sure what the conversation was behind closed doors, but that's what the, the child conveyed to me.

John Dehlin [00:21:28] And I know that Utah is becoming more and more secular. So, I mean, even in Davis county or Farmington or Bountiful, I'm guessing at least 20 to 30% of the people there aren't active LDS, because, like, salt Lake is more active today. It's more non LDS than it is lds. And so there's a part of my brain that would be like, well, you would have at least 10 to 20% of the student population of non Mormons where those kids could find each other and hang out. Was that not your experience?

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:22:01] No. And I, I do think, surprisingly, that even if you're not active, there's still a difference to people between just not being active and having been baptized. Or like, your parents are okay with you going to activities and you can say to people when they ask, yeah, I'm Mormon, then, you know, is different than someone asking, are you Mormon? Which is a very. Was a very common question, and being like, no.

John Dehlin [00:22:28] Okay.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:22:29] I think to kids and even like their parents at the time, it was probably. It's shocking to hear that in that area.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:36] Yeah. And what's really being said, I imagine. And did you. Well, let me ask you this in elementary school, where you asked, are you Mormon a lot?

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:22:45] All the time.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:45] All the time.

John Dehlin [00:22:46] Oh, my goodness.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:22:47] Anytime you like, I would meet someone new. It's, are you Mormon? And I remember having, like, going over to, like, this little boy's house and just, like, sitting on the driveway. I just have this memory of him crying and saying, like, so you're never going to get married in the temple? And just thinking. I'm like, I don't know, like, and not really knowing, like, why he was so upset. But even I think that was maybe first or second grade.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:13] Yeah. That's intense. And I was just gonna say, like, really? What's inferred in that question, are you Mormon? Is like, are you like, me? Are you safe? Yep.

Social Exclusion and Mormon Identity Screening

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:23:25] It's kind of like a screening. Like, are you. Yeah, Are you safe? Are you good? Are you okay?

John Dehlin [00:23:33] You mentioned wearing a cross. Do you want to talk about that?

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:23:36] Oh, yeah. My mom gave me a cross necklace, which is. It's really common, and I. People don't know, like, in Christian churches to wear crosses, and it's just imagery. And I wore it to school one day and kind of was bullied about it and told, like, hey, that's really bad.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:00] And.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:24:01] And, like, to a point where by the end of the day, I just took it off.

John Dehlin [00:24:05] Wow, you felt so. And it's so weird because, yes, growing up, I was taught crosses are evil. As a Mormon kid, there's a real disrespect for both Catholicism and other Christian denominations as being just false churches. So it doesn't surprise me at all. But never Mormons might be shocked by that, that. That Mormons historically have had such contempt for the cross.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:24:33] Right. And I recall one of the little girls said specifically, like, you should take that off because we should be celebrating Christ's resurrection, not his death. And that was confusing to me because I'm like, you know, in Presbyterianism, it's like, that's the big thing. Like, that Christ died for us, and that's why we get to ask for forgiveness. Like, that's a main theme. And so crosses were, like, a symbol, like, of that. And so then I had all these kids telling me, like, hey, that's really bad, and then feeling like I had done something wrong.

John Dehlin [00:25:08] And it's weird because Mormons want more than anything to be accepted as Christians, and yet they're accepting the cross. And then also, can't you. Can't you celebrate Christ's life and his overcoming death in the resurrection? Like, can't we celebrate a couple aspects of Christ.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:25:26] Apparently not.

John Dehlin [00:25:27] So, yeah, I guess it. I tend to argue that Mormons should be considered Christian, but I can see why my Christian counterparts sometimes just maybe feel so disrespected that they don't want to even grant the title to Mormons. Yeah, yeah, but that's sad to think about your little girl just trying to be accepted. You wear a cross and you're shamed into taking that cross off by the end of the day. That makes me sad.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:25:52] Just a piece of jewelry. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:54] Yeah. You. You mentioned a sleepover in second grade. Do you want to talk about that or did you already talk about that?

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:26:01] No, I haven't yet. So I think, like, just these stories are kind of like the build up to what finally broke me. I was like, I just want to be Mormon. And so one really strong memory is going to a sleepover really late at night, just laying there and me not being warming got brought up and the little girls were just kind of explaining to me what happens to people who aren't Mormon when they die. And I just, I remember it was like kind of traumatizing. Like they. I just remember hearing the words like spirit prison and thinking like, what? Like I'm going to spirit prison and just being really terrified about that and just thinking in my head like, I have to get baptized at some point because I don't, I don't want to go to spirit prison or whatever they said. That scared me. I. It's hard to remember.

John Dehlin [00:26:56] Well, I do know that Mormons generally believe that if you're not baptized with the Mormon baptism and married with a Mormon temple marriage, you won't be with your spouse or your children or your parents. And in heaven.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:27:10] Yep. They talked about that, like, not being like, I won't be with my family in heaven.

John Dehlin [00:27:14] In heaven for the eternity.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:27:16] For the eternity. That my. I think I shared that my mom had left the church and they're like, well, she's going to outer darkness. And.

John Dehlin [00:27:26] Yeah, because apostates are the. In the worst spot in heaven. Right.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:27:29] And so that was really scary as a little girl to be told. And I took it as truth. I was like, I thought, you know, I thought the Mormons had the last say on everything. So. And I mean, like, I was out of place. I was the one in the wrong.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:42] They.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:27:43] They were right. And so whatever they told me, I, I really believed.

John Dehlin [00:27:47] And then you talk about being befriended and sometimes feeling like a project and what would happen if you didn't accept their invitations to, to activity days. Do you want, do you want to talk about just that whole.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:01] Yeah.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:28:02] So like I said a little bit before, it was a really common occurrence to be invited by people who I weren't really even friends with or didn't know. Well, you know, they'd come knocking at the door or call on the phone, can you come to church on Sunday? And, you know, they'd ask a couple times, and the answer from my parents was no. Like, most of the time. And then, yeah, I wouldn't hear from those people anymore. And it just felt like. Yeah, it felt like I was a project for people. Like, here's this person who's not Mormon. Let's conquer this. If it kind of. I got that feeling from people in my neighborhood and at school.

John Dehlin [00:28:43] Yeah. Because Mormons are pressured. I was pressured very heavily to. There's the saying, every. Every Mormon a missionary, Every member a missionary. And I was taught, write your testimony in your Book of Mormon and give it out to all your friends in high school. Figure out who in your neighborhood is in a Mormon. Talk to them about the church. Invite them to church. Mormons are heavily pressured to convert their neighbors and their co workers to the church where possible.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:29:14] Totally. Yeah. I was given a lot of Book of Mormons. Yeah. I got that feeling like sometimes that's the only reason people were. Well, not just got the feeling like it was the only reason people were knocking on my door or calling me on the phone.

John Dehlin [00:29:30] Yeah, it's such. It's such an objectification of people to look at them as targets for religion instead of just as humans that are co. Equals. Right.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:29:43] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:29:44] Did you feel like a.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:29:45] A project or 100%? That's how I felt. Like I was just an opportunity for them to do something to make them feel good.

John Dehlin [00:29:56] Yeah. Yeah. All right, well, so really quickly, what stuff were you into as a teen? What were your, likes, your hobbies, your interests? Just to get a sense for your budding personality as a teen?

High School Years, Friends, and Seminary Culture

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:30:12] Yeah, I loved music. I taught myself to play a little bit of guitar, and I love to sing. I did ksville Idol a few times as a teenager.

John Dehlin [00:30:24] What types of music? What. Who are your favorite artists?

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:30:26] Oh, Taylor Swift was my. Was my number one. That's how I taught myself to play guitar. Was all Taylor Swift song.

John Dehlin [00:30:33] So you're a Swifty?

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:30:34] Oh, big Swifty to this day. Yeah. That's all I remember listening to as a teenager is Taylor Swift.

John Dehlin [00:30:43] Okay. And. And you. When you did talent shows, would you sing Taylor Swift songs?

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:30:49] Yep, I think I did. Like, like Traveling Soldier by the Dixie Chicks.

John Dehlin [00:30:55] That's a good one.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:30:56] That's a good song.

John Dehlin [00:30:57] Yeah, I love Dixie Chicks.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:30:58] Yeah, Caseville. Loved that one. I think I did Alicia Keys. I would sing a few different things.

John Dehlin [00:31:04] Yeah.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:31:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:06] Okay, so. So you mentioned starting high school and, like, feeling like you had no friends. Did you eventually settle into a friend group or were you isolated? How did that talk about your social and relational evolution through high school?

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:31:24] So I'd say most of sophomore year I was by myself. We lived really close by, so I would just.

John Dehlin [00:31:30] Oh, is the first year of high school in Davis sophomore or freshman?

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:31:34] Sophomore. Three years.

John Dehlin [00:31:35] Some high schools. It's ninth grade.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:31:38] Yeah. So my junior high was seventh, eighth, and ninth, and then 10th grade, I started at Davis.

John Dehlin [00:31:43] It's so weird. Why? Why? Utah tends to want high school to be 10th, 11th, and 12th.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:31:48] Really strange.

John Dehlin [00:31:49] Yeah.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:31:49] Even my. My husband was in high school four years and.

John Dehlin [00:31:52] Yeah.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:31:52] Yeah, just a little different. But we live close by, and in high school you can leave for lunch and so I would see all the kids, like, hop into each other's cars and go to Wendy's for lunch or whatever, and I would just walk myself home and, you know, spend a lot of time by myself.

John Dehlin [00:32:10] Did you notice kids going to seminary because there's release time. Talk about release time seminary in Utah, what that's like in high school? And then what's it like to know all the other kids are doing that and you're not?

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:32:23] Oh, so weird. Yeah. Everyone did seminary. Everyone was talking about it, and I

John Dehlin [00:32:30] didn't know what's seminary?

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:32:31] For those who don't know, seminary is like church you go to for a period in school.

John Dehlin [00:32:37] In high school.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:32:38] In high school, I think they do. They offer it in junior high as well sometimes, I think sometimes in junior high as well. But one period of your. Your day will be spent with a seminary teacher learning about the church.

John Dehlin [00:32:50] And where does that class take place?

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:32:52] On school grounds. There is like, a chapel. Is that what you would.

John Dehlin [00:32:56] It's a seminary building. And weirdly, in Utah, they let the Mormon Church build these seminary buildings either right on campus or right, like, across the street.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:33:08] It was the high school, the auditorium, and the seminary building right next to it.

John Dehlin [00:33:13] So every class, period, a bunch of kids were. Would all go together, walk over to the Mormon seminary building and have religious instruction as part of their education. Yeah, so did. How did that. As you watched and observed that. What was that like?

Margi Dehlin [00:33:31] I was.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:33:32] I was jealous. Oh, like, well, all these kids bonded over this thing and they all had friends, like, somewhat, like, because they have kids in Their wardrobe. And I just. I just wanted that connection. I wanted friendships so much that. Yeah, I was. I was like, I wish that I. I want to go there.

John Dehlin [00:33:55] Did you ever ask mom and dad, can I do seminary? Or did you ever just secretly try and enroll?

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:34:01] No, I. At this point, I knew it was a subject not to really bring up or push, so I never asked. But. But I did get a free period of the day where I just sat there or went home.

John Dehlin [00:34:14] Oh, you didn't have to fill it with some other elective?

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:34:17] No, I. Because technically the seminary is just release time.

John Dehlin [00:34:21] Okay.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:34:22] So anyone can have release time.

John Dehlin [00:34:25] So if you don't go to seminary, you just get a free period.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:34:28] You get a free period or, you know, you can do an elective, but

John Dehlin [00:34:32] you don't have to.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:34:32] You don't have to.

John Dehlin [00:34:33] Oh, I didn't know that. Okay. That's how I. That's how oblivious Mormons are to the non Mormon experience. I didn't even know that.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:34:41] I think I said it for, like, the first period of the day, so maybe I got to sleep in or something. I don't remember. Or go home early.

John Dehlin [00:34:47] Okay.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:34:48] But a lot of. But all the Mormons had that release time filled with seminary.

John Dehlin [00:34:51] I could see some Mormon girl at Davis High School inviting you to come to seminary with her. Did that ever happen?

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:34:59] It's hard to. It's hard to remember. I don't think so. I think I was more often just invited to Sunday church.

John Dehlin [00:35:05] Okay. Okay. Okay. So how did your social or relationship. Did you ever try and date Mormon boys?

Dating, Relationships, and Purity Culture

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:35:14] Well, first year, it's easy because Nobody's dating. Everybody's 15, pretty much. And so. And Mormons don't date till they're 16. Okay. So that was fine. But later, like the second half of the year, everyone turns 16 and everyone's going to dances like prom and whatever else, and I wasn't being asked. And so that was. That was another, like, blaring thing that I'm like, is it because I'm not Mormon? You know, and people ask people from their ward, you know, people just know each other. I didn't know anybody, so.

John Dehlin [00:35:50] And Mormons are taught not to date non Mormons.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:35:53] Oh, yeah. No. Nobody was gonna ask a girl on a date or go to a dance with a girl. Who was it? Mormon. And so what ended up happening? Well, I want to just say there's kind of like a. A thing where there's two extremes. It felt like at the school, so there was Mormons and then there was the select few. Who probably were Mormon and their parents were Mormon, but they were kind of like rebelling against it, and they were seen as kind of like the bad kids, a bad crowd. But what ended up happening is those were the people who ended up kind of befriending me and accepting me.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:36:31] And I don't think they were bad kids, but just because they were. What's. I don't know, more alternative or whatever, they were kind of marked by Mormon people as, like, the bad crowd. But that's kind of the people I ended up being friends with.

John Dehlin [00:36:46] That's. You know, we experienced that because our. You know, I was excommunicated while my kids were in high school and they lost all their Mormon friends as a result, or most of their Mormon friends. And so you really have to. Either you're either in the big Mormon crowd or they're these kind of perceived as edgy.

Margi Dehlin [00:37:06] Edgy.

John Dehlin [00:37:06] Edgy kids. You know what I mean?

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:37:08] Exactly. The more edgy kids. And I ended up dating one of the more edgy kids. It was kind of like a whirlwind. I think at the time, I wasn't quite ready to be, like, in a serious relationship at all.

Margi Dehlin [00:37:28] I was.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:37:29] When I entered high school, I was way more interested in, like, just going to dances with different people. I wanted a friend group, but I was so lonely. And then here are these people that, like, finally, like, they were willing to accept me, they thought something of me, and so, you know, end up dating one of them and getting a lot more serious than I think I ever was ready for or wanted to, even at the time.

John Dehlin [00:37:56] But it must just be almost intoxicating to finally have someone showing interest, someone

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:38:03] showing interest in me or telling me that I'm. That I'm okay the way I am, that I'm worth something. And, yeah, I think that is intoxicating or was at the time. And I don't know if it was like, the Mormon culture, I bet. Yeah, I don't know if it's Mormon culture, but I also never learned a lot of boundaries. Like, I never learned that it was okay to tell somebody no or say, oh, like, I'm not comfortable. Like, I was kind of taught to be a people pleaser, whether that was Mormon culture or my just my upbringing or both. A nice, splendid, nice mix of both.

John Dehlin [00:38:45] Okay, so do you want to talk about what do you want to share about that relationship or your junior senior years?

Margi Dehlin [00:38:52] Yeah.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:38:53] So the. The boyfriend I was with, he did come from a Mormon family. Like, his family was pretty orthodox, but he was very Rebellious. He smoked cigarettes, he smoked weed, he, you know, was drinking and it was always a really. Is really chaotic with him. He was, we were both suicidal at the time and kind of like that feeds off of each other, I think.

John Dehlin [00:39:24] So you would talk about that with each other?

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:39:26] Oh yeah. And like, I think at the time we saw it like we were there for each other, but it was, it was really toxic and I think just like, yeah, feeding like negative feeding off of each other.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:39:40] And like I said, there were things happening like, going a lot further than I was comfortable with, but not able to feel like I had the right to say what I was comfortable with or not or whether that was even respected if I did.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:40:00] And so what ended up happening with that and how I kind of got out of what I feel now is kind of somewhat of an abusive relationship was he got sent to a year long program for like drug rehabilitation, which I found out recently. The name of the facility, not. I won't say the name of the facility, but is a really extremely like abusive facility religiously.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:40:28] But yeah, that he was sent there for a year and I, I never. He was sent there and I, I've never spoken to him again.

John Dehlin [00:40:35] Didn't you feel like that kind of was good for you to have him sent away?

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:40:40] Yeah, because otherwise I don't, I don't know what would have happened. I don't know if I would have ever had the, the strength or like be empowered to end things or say like, this is enough.

John Dehlin [00:40:57] Yeah.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:40:57] You know, we did have some friends that were kind of in our like edgier group who were Mormon. I think they were like edgier Mormons. But that culture still really affected them in a sense that I came to them several times for help saying like, this is what's happening. And what they did is kind of just cut me off instead of helping. And like we were children. I don't know. I, at this point in my life, I don't, I understand, like, they didn't have the tools to know what to do. But I think it got to a point where they're like, this is too far out of Mormonism for me and like cut me off as a friend.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:41] Okay, but you did, like, it's something to recognize. You made attempts to vocalize your needs and to get support at that time. It was just met with judgment. Yeah, that's.

John Dehlin [00:41:59] I, it just occurred to me, like, Utah has like probably a lot of predominantly Christian states in the United States. Utah's got weird laws around sex education. It. It has this Weird maturity lessons that you get, I guess in middle school where they're kind of, you know, they try and dance around sex education. But it's a very Mormon even, even Mormon church leaders give those maturation lessons. Did you do maturation and yeah. Do you remember anything about it?

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:42:30] There was a maturation in sixth grade where it's mostly like hygienic. We learn about, you know, deodorant, things like that. And then in junior high, in high school I can remember it wasn't absolutely abstinence only per se, but that was like heavily preference preferenced. And so we did learn about like STDs types of protection, but I would say abstinence was the biggest conversation.

John Dehlin [00:42:58] Did you learn about consent? Healthy consent?

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:43:01] No, no, no, no, no, no. Definitely not.

John Dehlin [00:43:04] Did you learn about birth control?

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:43:07] I, I think like, I think it's great, like grazed over a little bit. Like here are options. Yeah, yeah. So it's not. I don't think it's the worst in the country, to be honest. The fact that we even learned about like contraception.

John Dehlin [00:43:19] Yeah. Okay. It would be useful for the Mormon Church in all its changes in these days to get really good at talking about consent.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:43:30] Yeah. Because you know, I think it's like almost, I want to say it's like almost the opposite. Like I'm very aware of in the Mormon culture of like women feeling like they definitely owe their husband and things like that. And so I, Yeah, I know consent in my household at school or anywhere was not something that was on my radar until I was like well into an adulthood. Like. Oh yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:57] Almost like a male centered desire within sexual relations. Like it's focused on more of a.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:44:07] Males 1000%. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:11] I just wonder if that left you a little bit vulnerable as a non Mormon, you know?

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:44:15] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:16] Possibly.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:44:17] Yep. I, I think that is a big part of what happened is I was so uncomfortable. I was so. I think it contributed so much to my, my self harm and suicidal ideation just because I grew up so immersed in the Mormon culture that I did feel like I was like ruined was how I felt. Like I felt like no one was ever going to want to marry me. I felt like no one would ever look at me the same. And yeah, I just, I never learned that it was okay to ex. Even express that. Like express that.

Margi Dehlin [00:45:00] Express.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:45:01] No. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:45:03] Can I ask you really quickly at home, did you talk about sex? Were there conversations with either parent?

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:45:12] No. So that was a really. It was a taboo subject.

Margi Dehlin [00:45:15] Okay.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:45:15] In my house, I think they, I Think they tried, but it was like, like my dad would go red.

Margi Dehlin [00:45:20] Yes. When, when it makes the parents so uncomfortable.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:45:23] It was so uncomfortable for them that they were definitely not like a resource for me at the time. I, and I've talked to my mom about it since and I think like that breaks her heart. Like, I don't think that's what her. Their intention was. I think they absolutely would have wanted me to come to them. I just, I didn't feel that then

John Dehlin [00:45:45] I'm gonna say how much I just so relate. Like when our kids all ended up leaving the church because I was kicked out, we, I believe me and Margi were just so ill equipped to provide help and counsel to our teenage and young adult kids because we hadn't ever sort of lived non Mormon lives. And so there are all sorts of things that normal, healthy developmental experiences our kids were having as young as teens and young adults. I just don't think we had any way to help them.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:46:22] No, you know, well, we had to.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:24] I will speak for myself. I feel like I had to educate myself at that point in time as to like what's normative, how, what are other approaches other than a fear based approach where you could even be giving options. But if all the options are shrouded in fear, like you know, sti, you could die or you know what I mean? Or like birth control. But also here are all the risks and you can still get pregnant or that fear based, you know, it took a real effort, I'll say for myself to really get educated, talk to people and kind of recondition so that I could show, show up better for my kids and even to like nervous system too, like low risk.

Margi Dehlin [00:47:21] This is not like that something's being taken away from a child. It could be something that's given. It's an experience that can be enriching. It's an experience that can really be, you know, a positive.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:47:36] Which sounds crazy, but. And I think fear, like, fear is the exact right word because my parents would say things like the conversation would be, we woke up one day and had three kids, so don't have sex. Like, you know, wait till you're married. And that, that was like the extent of it.

John Dehlin [00:47:54] Yeah, yeah. I'm just thinking when my kids became teens or young adults, if they'd come to me and said, dad, how do I get weed? Or how do I get weed in a healthy way? Or how do I drink in a responsible way, or how do I have a conversation with my partner about contraception or consent? I would have just been like, just don't do those things. You know what I mean? Like, and. And I guess that's. I guess that's a discussion of being an ex Mormon parent trying to raise kids without a healthy, secular worldview. You're many ex Mormon parents maybe just aren't equipped on how to raise super healthy, modern kids.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:48:37] They're not.

John Dehlin [00:48:37] Yeah.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:48:38] And like, what I. With my education and what I know now is like, it's not really ever too early to start talking about these things. Like, if they're old enough to ask or to think about it, like it's. They're old enough to have the conversation and they. There's no benefit to, like, you know, in an age appropriate, you know, there's no benefit of withholding that information.

John Dehlin [00:49:01] Yeah.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:49:01] You know, and not explaining it in an age appropriate way. But I think a lot of kids are not getting that.

John Dehlin [00:49:07] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:08] I have. I have a question about going back to your story now. So it sounds like your boyfriend was sent to a program for a year. Do you remember at that time getting the news or finding out that he was sent away and how you felt in that moment when you heard that news? Like a few emotions that you remember?

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:49:33] Yes. So I was part of the reason it happened. I had a lot of information and somewhat close relationship with his mother. A great person, but just like an orthodox Mormon and very concerned about, you know, her child. But he, like I said, we were having lots of conversations about, you know, suicidal ideation. And this was like a particularly turbulent time for him. And he was sending me text messages that like, he had a gun.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:50:13] So I ended up calling his mom. Oh, I. And it was, it was, it was like a really scary situation. Like, I thought something was gonna happen. I reached out to his mom and I felt a lot of guilt. I think he probably was angry with me.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:50:33] It's strange, though, I never spoke to him after that. I think it took like maybe a month or so for my nervous system to calm down. But it was pretty quickly that I realized, like, I felt pretty at peace.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:46] Yeah.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:50:47] Like, this is not how I wanted this to happen, but like, I'm free now.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:55] Yeah.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:50:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:50:58] Just going back a tiny bit also to what you mentioned. I'm. I'm struck by, you know, we often talk about the kind of purity culture in Mormonism, the chewed gum, the licked cupcake analogies. I find it fascinating that you weren't even a believer in the church. And yet somehow, as a non Mormon, growing up in Utah, as a teen who experienced healthy, normal development well, who experienced probably typical developmental experiences. You were. You absorbed that purity, culture licked, cupcake, damaged goods mentality, even without the belief, because you're swimming in the culture.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:51:39] Swimming in the culture. And as I got older, I went, enough. I. I started going, you know, I was. Attended young women's and Sunday church. I mean, like a dozen times or more. Like, I think enough to understand, like, what they were teaching. But, yeah, just swimming in the culture enough that I think it impacted me just as much as someone who was a member.

John Dehlin [00:52:03] That makes sense.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:03] And I think that added layer that you gave us earlier, where you as a child kind of absorbed all that I want and all I don't have is because of Mormonism.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:52:18] Because of Mormonism. And, like, not to mention that boyfriend whose family was so Mormon. Both of his older siblings went on missions while we were together. And after he was sent away, like, I think it was like the day after his mom texted me and said, hey, can I ask you a question? And I was like, sure. And she asked, were. Were you two having sex? Like, that was what she wanted to. After everything that happened and he was now in rehab, that's what she wanted to ask me.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:49] Wow.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:52:49] And I think, like, the shame and the guilt, like, wow, I really did something really bad, that this is what she's asking me out of everything. Not how did he get a gun? Not, you know, were you two having sex?

John Dehlin [00:53:07] It may be suggesting to you that your sex with him might have been what caused him to go off the edge.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:53:14] Maybe, you know, he was, you know, he was doing drugs, drinking, doing. He was doing a lot of so many things. So many things. And I honestly think that was her biggest concern and sexual piece. I'll say. I'm sure she was extremely concerned about everything, but, yeah, that was. I'll say that was one of her big concerns.

Margi Dehlin [00:53:37] Yeah.

Depression, Anxiety, and Mental Health Struggles

John Dehlin [00:53:39] So in your outline, you talk about kind of the depression, anxiety really getting significant for you by your junior year. Do you. Do you want to talk about your mental health treatment?

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:53:49] Yeah. So after that occurred, I was in such, like a. A negative space. I did go to inpatient psychiatric hospital twice. Self harm and just, you know, coming up with a plan and, like, that was enough to, like, luckily I. I felt comfortable reaching, like, going to my mom and just letting her know how I was feeling and got the. I got the help that I needed.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:18] And I'm so glad you went to her. Yeah. Mm.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:54:21] I'm really grateful that I felt, like, comfortable at that point to. To talk to her about that and just. I Knew because I. I just. I remember, like, I'm, Like, I didn't want to. To die, but I. You know, you just don't want to feel how you're feeling anymore. I feel. It felt so overwhelming. I felt like I had kind of. I'm, like, I've ruined my life. Like, if, you know, you're. I'm just kind of had, like, this short focal point of, like. It was hard to see that there would ever be a life outside of what was going on, what had happened, what was going on, how I felt.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:59] Was inpatient treatment helpful? And if so, how.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:55:06] No, I mean, not. I wouldn't say with, like, the healing. I. What it is is just a safe place where you can't hurt yourself. But for me, for some years after, I think it just added to my judgment of myself and, like, made me feel more tarnished.

Margi Dehlin [00:55:24] Like. Oh, is that because. Are you meaning. Because it's now part of your narrative?

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:55:29] It's now part of my story that I had to leave school and go to this hospital. And I ended up going through, like, leaving school and going through a program for a few months that was outpatient, but you go there instead of school.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:55:44] And, I mean, there were some kids there who had really severe, you know, mental health problems. And I'm like. I felt. I'm like, do I really belong here? Like, I'm just depressed. I'm just. I'm anxious. It made it. I think it made it feel like I'm like, oh, I'm. I'm really messed up is how I felt at the time. Now I see it differently. But that's how I felt at the time. Like, I just felt like I had really gotten so off track that there was no going back. And because at a young age, I held myself to such a high standard, and I felt like I had really lost the path that I wanted to go on.

John Dehlin [00:56:28] So your outline mentions at some point saying, maybe I need a restart. Maybe I need to start over.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:56:35] Yep. And that's where this happens. I'm like, how can I get back on track? How can I. Yeah, clear this up.

John Dehlin [00:56:43] So what happened?

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:56:44] So I went to somebody I kind of knew from school, who I knew had, like, that dream family. And she was just, like, this idealistic girl. And I went to her and I said, hey, like, I think I'm interested in getting baptized. And you can imagine, like, how elated and excited. And, like, within the week, she set me up with missionary lessons in her home. And I actually was doing this behind my mom's back. So going there every week for these lessons behind my mom's back, what was that like?

John Dehlin [00:57:21] The lessons,

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:57:24] I mean, I felt almost on top of the world because of how I was being treated. Like, I was just being told, like, how amazing it was that I was making this decision and I didn't tell them to the full extent of that, of the story. I let them know, like, I've gone through kind of a dark period, I want to start over. And they really, like, grasp onto that throughout the lessons. Like, you know, you. This is how you can be clean. You're like, you're. When you get baptized, you're going to be washed clean again. And that, like, for your brain, what

John Dehlin [00:58:06] was that like for you?

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:58:08] It was so, such a relief, the idea that I might be able to like, wash my soul clean of everything terrible I had done.

Investigating the Church and Deciding to Get Baptized

John Dehlin [00:58:19] Did you believe in a soul and did you believe your soul was dirty?

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:58:23] It's, like, complicated because it was. I don't know if it was that or if it was like, just how I saw myself or how other people saw me. Maybe a mixture of all of it. I think I'll be like, perfectly honest. I wasn't like, super connected to the. The gospel or like Joseph Smith. Like, there was no testim testimony there, but I just. I went into it knowing, like, I'm gonna get baptized. So they're like, did you read this page? And did you feel the spirit? Yes, I did. Like, I was just. I was just hell bent on, like, I'm just gonna get baptized. Because just of that idea, like, and the wording they used of, like, clean again.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:12] Yeah.

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:59:13] Like, I. This was how I could start over and like, having, like, had sex and feeling like that was like the worst thing I could have done. And knowing that, like, this was kind of like a restart. Yeah, that was like, really huge for me.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:30] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:59:32] So. So there's like, worrying about your soul. Will I go to heaven or not? Purity or there's just my life's in the dumps and I just want to, like, get. Get my life going in a better direction or I just want to feel better. How. Where were you on those two kind of scales?

Gabrielle Zelaya [00:59:51] Like, honestly, just wanting to feel better about myself. I think. I thought at the time, like, I really thought that I would be able to forget everything that happened after I got baptized. Like, this was really just a fresh start for me.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:08] And.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:00:08] And like, though maybe the world would see me differently and maybe I'd see myself differently if I was doing this really, like, what other people thought Was a really good thing.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:20] Right.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:00:21] I just wanted to do something good.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:22] And I'm also hearing, like, have a different experience because you'd been suffering for so long. So I can see that why it was so enticing to you.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:00:35] Yeah. I need. I'm like. I want to go towards, like, this thing that I viewed as, like, the light, because the people that weren't involved in church, like, really hurt me. Yeah. And so I'm like, I've got to go, like, hard right. Like, hard right. Turn.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:53] Yeah, I see that. So can I just make an observation, like, it seems, and correct me if I'm wrong? In your story, you go from this place of tremendous suffering and loss and it sounds, like, lonely, to, like, I'm going to get baptized. And then you have all the people and you have all the praise, and you have this hope of, like, ooh, I could start again. I could be a new version of me. I could be this in. But it's, like, such a flip in so little time.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:01:30] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:31] Is that right?

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:01:31] That's exactly right. I'm like, this will make. I'll be a new person, and all these people will see me in a new light. And. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:41] And you was. It was part of it. You'll make new friends. You'll finally have a bestie. You'll belong to a social group. Maybe you'll get asked to dances, you know.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:01:52] Yeah. Well, right off the bat, this family. And by the way, they're a grave family. I still. I still follow up, and they're great people. They were. I came to them for help, and they responded the way I wanted them to. I just want to say that because I really appreciate them. But immediately I was over at their house all the time eating dinner. And, I mean, they were the picture. The picture of a perfect family to me. And I was starting. I was involved and going to church with them and kind of felt like a part of their family. And the girl, you know, kind of took me under her wing at school. I was going out. I was going out to Wendy's now for lunch. And, like, already before even getting baptized was such a. A big change in, like, like, socially, and I already felt more accepted.

John Dehlin [01:02:45] You mean going to Wendy's with the kids during the.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:02:47] During lunch instead of going home by myself. Wow.

John Dehlin [01:02:50] Did you start going to seminary?

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:02:52] I did. I never went to seminary. This was so. I guess I should say this was like, halfway through my senior year.

John Dehlin [01:02:59] Oh, okay.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:03:00] By this point.

John Dehlin [01:03:01] Okay. So you couldn't have even changed your schedule at that point. Plus, it would have tipped your mom off.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:03:06] Yeah, I think you have to get a parent's signature. And I don't think I told my mom anything was going on until I needed her permission to get baptized.

John Dehlin [01:03:16] Did you start getting asked out on dates by Mormon boys or invited to dance?

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:03:21] Sure did.

Margi Dehlin [01:03:22] Sure did.

John Dehlin [01:03:23] What was that like?

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:03:25] I mean, it just had the exact effect that I wanted it to have where, like, people did see me differently and I was worth something now to people. And at my baptism, there were so many people there that I didn't even know. Like, all the seats were filled and there were people standing in the back. And I remember looking around like, I don't even know. Like, I see these people at school, but they've never even spoken to me. And they were all there giving me hugs, telling me how great this was. My ex boyfriend's mom came. She was just like. Everyone felt like on cloud nine for me, and in turn that I'm like, okay, like, this was the right. I'm doing the right thing. People see me as a good person now.

John Dehlin [01:04:22] How long did you do the lessons with the missionaries and quote, investigate, as

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:04:27] they call, was quick because I came to them saying, I'm going to get baptized, but I want to say I don't. Just the full. However many you need to take six lessons or whatever. Yeah, I want to say it was just like a little over a month.

John Dehlin [01:04:40] Okay. What was that conversation like with either your mom or dad or both?

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:04:46] My dad was supportive. He was like, this is what you want? I was like, yeah. He said, do you want me to come? I said, no, just because I think I knew my heart wasn't in it for the right reasons. I think I felt a little guilty, like, having him come, I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:05:04] Because you weren't a literal believer, you mean?

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:05:06] Yeah, I wasn't. Like, I believe in this church. Like, I think I knew in my head I was kind of doing it for not probably the reasons they would

Margi Dehlin [01:05:17] like, but really you were doing it for, I mean, basic needs reasons. You were trying to save survival with survival. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:27] It was mental health and it was social.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:30] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:05:30] And those are actually great reasons, in my opinion.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:05:33] Yeah, I mean, to me it was. And.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:35] And it.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:05:36] It, like I said, it did exactly what I needed at the time. It was how I survived with my mom. It was really, really bad for a time we. We didn't talk for. We just weren't talking while it was happening. She went out of town when I was being baptized. She didn't want to be There.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:00] Yeah.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:06:00] I think I. I think I forged her signature on the paper asking permission.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:07] Yeah.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:06:07] Hopefully that's okay to say.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:10] But. Yeah.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:06:12] Yeah. She wouldn't sign it. She's like, do whatever you want. Sign my signature. I'm not signing it.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:18] Yeah.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:06:19] What was interesting was the people out, like, the missionaries, the family who helped me, and there was some like. Oh, I don't know what you call, like, the senior missionary.

John Dehlin [01:06:28] Senior companion.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:06:29] Yeah. They. They were just having me over and they would just tell me, like, you're so brave. You're having such a hard time with your mom. She doesn't want to get you to get baptized. Like, we're proud of you.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:40] Yeah.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:06:42] You're doing the right thing.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:45] Wow.

John Dehlin [01:06:46] Really quickly. And. And I know this theme's going to come out later probably, but, you know, if you, if you read, like, Stephen Hessen or any of the kind of cult experts, they come up with this term love bombing, which is this idea that cults will swarm you with attention and love and compliments and treats and goodies and social connections and friendships as a way to kind of lure you in. And I'm mindful you've already said it was you who went to this family because you were wanting it. So we're not accusing anyone of that. I want you to talk about that spectrum of, like, is that just an unfair characterization of people who just believe something sincerely and love you and want to help and were there for you when you needed it?

John Dehlin [01:07:39] Or is it fair to just say that's nefarious social manipulation? Or do you think that's just an unkind and un. Unfair way to describe what you. What you experience? Do you have thoughts on that?

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:07:52] 100. Yeah, 100. I think that's fair. Because what's fair that, like, what you said is true, that there is, like a love bombing and lose my train of thought.

John Dehlin [01:08:06] Is that bad or good, though?

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:08:09] I think it's negative. And I did come to them, but we're talking about a lifetime of people of the love bombing, of the bringing brownies come to come to church. And, you know, there was a reason I felt confident and comfortable coming to this girl. Like, I want to get baptized. She wasn't somebody random. She was somebody who had time and time again, like, invited me to young women's, invited me to church. Like, that's how I knew her. And so that's why I felt comfortable going to her is. And she was the contact because there

Margi Dehlin [01:08:46] was,

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:08:48] you know, that pattern.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:51] Yeah.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:08:51] But the whole. A whole lifetime of conditioning of, like, this is what these people want from me. This is what. This is how I'm going to get my acceptance.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:00] This is how do you get. You get love and belonging here. Here. Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:09:05] Okay, so you're saying it's a little bit potentially pernicious because it's a lifetime of grooming you to where that's the only acceptable path for you. And they, it's almost like Carolyn Pearson used this term, once they throw you in the gutter and then expect you not to get dirty. In other words, it's almost like they create the conditions. This may not be fair. Let me just ask you, if some were to say it's almost like Mormons in Utah create the conditions where non Mormons are going to feel like their life is empty and sad and meaningless and they're inferior such that then their only real option is to end up joining that. It's almost like you're set up for that, set up to fail so that then you'll come on your knees back to the church. Is that giving too much credit or, or even slandering the social dynamics here?

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:10:00] No, no. I think you're spot on. I think, I think that's really well put because I was cast out for this one reason. So when I want acceptance, how am I to think there's any other way? You know what I mean? So, I mean, it wasn't even a question. I'm like, I, I'm. I've been so alone for so long. I've been so sad. I've tried everything. I, I did like, I joined track, I did like, I've tried to reach out to people. I've tried to. I've tried everything. The only thing I haven't tried is becoming Mormon.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:35] Yes. Like, because none of those things would bridge the gap.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:10:38] It doesn't bridge the gap.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:42] Just as a, Just a brief aside, when I was doing my research with the LGBTQ community, we actually did a study of like mental health and well being. If you're gay and celibate or gay and just dating, but not in a committed relationship versus gay and in a committed relationship where you're not married versus gay and legally married. And long story short, is the best mental health was when you're gay and legally same sex married of the, you know, thousands of, you know, hundreds and hundreds, if not thousands of people we surveyed. So I thought, oh, well, the Mormon Church, once they know that the healthiest, happiest gay person is one who's legally same sex married, even if they're not in the church.

John Dehlin [01:11:31] The church is going to want legalized marriage for same sex couples because it's going to lead to the best health and outcome. And Weirdly, when the November 15th policy happened in 2015, they'll excommunicate if you got legally same sex married.

John Dehlin [01:11:50] Mandatory excommunication if you just dated a gazillion partners but never settled down to have a committed relationship or there was no action. So like, I just thought, why would the church make excommunication mandatory for the gay person that chooses the healthiest possible choice?

John Dehlin [01:12:14] And then I thought, well, they don't want non Mormons to be healthy and happy. They either want you. And I don't know that this is intentional, but the thought came to my mind. They either want you a cautionary tale in the gutter suffering or groveling on their knees back to join the church and being. They don't want healthy, happy, non Mormons in the world.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:12:40] No, they don't. That's exactly right. And exactly like, I feel like I was that cautionary tale and I, I feel like what happened to me was exactly what. Not what they wanted, but what was told would happen if you're not Mormon, like, you're going to end up in bad relationships and, you know, with a bad person or involved in drugs and alcohol and, and that's what they, that's how they scare like kids. Like, that's why you need to stay on the path. And that's exactly what ended up happening to me. And I think that like, little girl in my mind was like, and it's because I'm not Mormon. Yeah, that's, that's what happens when you're not Mormon. Those are the kinds of situations you end up in. Just like they said. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:27] I think the irony is, and this is just, uh, like, I don't know, says a lot about how powerful the conditioning is, is how often that tale happens within Mormonism. Right. We all know people that we grew up with who, you know, lived the cautionary tale within Mormonism. They had Mormonism. Right. So but instead of it being viewed as. And, and, and there are all sorts of problems, right, with judging how kids grow up and choices they make. And so we, we could do a whole podcast on that.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:14:02] Right.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:02] But we'll just accept that that's the given. But isn't it amazing that you can, you know, grow up and within Mormonism, there are all sorts of narratives of people who live and it doesn't touch, it just doesn't touch this conditioning point of like, Mormonism creates You know, goodness. Yep. Mormonism creates value of a person. Right?

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:14:29] Exactly.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:30] Yeah. Yep.

Love Bombing, Belonging, and the Decision to Join

John Dehlin [01:14:32] And then it's the only last thing I'll say because, I mean, the whole point is to kind of. For us to learn from all this. Margi, didn't someone once tell you there's two problems with Utah culture? Do you want to finish the sentence? Do you remember?

Margi Dehlin [01:14:44] Yeah. It was the Mormons and the ex Mormons.

John Dehlin [01:14:47] In other words, you know what I mean? It's like all the Mormons are. There's the conditional love and the. And the doctrine that leads to some very unhealthy things. But then so many of the ex Mormons here almost end up living as an opposite of whatever Mormonism was. So like we talked about, you either have to be an orthodox, Mormon or in this rebellious crowd kind of rebelling against, reacting against something, the host culture, what there isn't a lot of in Utah is just a middle ground, secular, healthy, normal culture. Or at least, I don't know, maybe people have a hard time finding that. Right.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:15:31] I hadn't seen it for you.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:33] For you, if you don't have any. You have no peers that are not Mormon. I just don't know how it's. That is an incredibly suffocating existence.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:15:45] Totally.

John Dehlin [01:15:45] Yeah.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:15:46] I mean, and even my parents, like, you know, my parents had alcohol in the house. They drank and. Which is fine, but like at, you know, it wasn't. It wasn't even just that we were like secular whatever. I think people really. I think that's like why people weren't allowed in my house and stuff is like maybe the alcohol or.

John Dehlin [01:16:08] Or coffee maker.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:16:09] Or coffee maker, whatever else. Yeah. Which none of that is bad, but I think in the heads of little kids, it's like the worst thing you can see.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:18] So we're at a point in your story where it feels like you are now making a decision to join the church. It's really for basic needs, survival, belonging, mental health reasons. And the cost is now there's this chasm maybe in your relationship with your mom in particular. Right. So your personal relationships kind of suffer.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:16:48] Yep. 100. And like, this is kind of like I like foreshadowed earlier with my grandmother. Like, she was so thrilled and like my grandpa baptized me and she. I remember just coming out of the. The water and she made me a towel and sewed my name on it and wrapped me in it and just like shaking, crying, just so happy.

John Dehlin [01:17:18] And your mom and dad weren't in attendance? Oh, okay.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:17:22] No, I like, none of, none of

John Dehlin [01:17:24] my siblings and what was that like to have your grandma's and grandpa's love

Margi Dehlin [01:17:29] and that approval finally?

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:17:31] Oh, my gosh, it's. It felt amazing to finally feel like I had done something right in her eyes. And, like, I mean, as a people pleaser, you know, just to have someone that pleased with you and, like, was, like, enough to feel like it was worth it to have this strained relationship with my mom. But it even. It was strained between, like, my mom and my grandparents because of their involvement. And my mom knew the reasons I was doing it, and she told my grandma, like, you know, Gabby doesn't even really believe in the church. Like, she's just doing this to make friends. And like, my grandma didn't even care. She was like, that's fine. That's just fine.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:18:21] So I'll just say it again that that's a good reason. Like, friends are social. Like, there's a saying, a lone monkey is a dead monkey. We are tribal animals. And, like, one of the most toxic things to mental health and physical health is loneliness. So I'm just going to say it to make friends and to be accepted into a social group, you could argue is actually a good reason to join a church, even if you don't believe in the theology or the doctrine. That's my opinion.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:18:51] Thank you for saying that. Just because. And I feel that too. Now I'm like, oh, my gosh. I was just a child who just wanted acceptance. Like, that's such a basic need. Need. And so I'm like, go for it, girl. But at the time, I, I didn't want. I was like, mortified that my mom had told my grandma that's why I was doing it. I was so mortified because I felt a lot of shame and guilt about that.

John Dehlin [01:19:16] But. But also, I can relate. Not personally, but so many ex Mormons I've met, they feel so traumatized by the church. They're just like, okay, you may feel happy now, Gabby, your mom. I'm trying to channel your mom. You may be happy now, but just wait till the abuse or the patriarchy or the oppression or the judgment starts. You're just going to be like, she's probably thinking, I stopped the chain of multi generational harm. And now you're. You're just gonna get.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:19:46] For you to go and get baptized.

John Dehlin [01:19:48] Yeah. Like you, You'll. It's. Get. It may feel good now, but I imagine your mom is feeling the harm is gonna come.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:19:55] Right? 100. Well, and especially because, I mean, I wasn't perfectly honest with them. You Know, they ask you before baptism what you've done.

John Dehlin [01:20:07] Have you had sex?

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:20:08] Yeah. I was not honest just because.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:11] Okay.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:20:11] I didn't want anything in your way. In my way, which not great.

John Dehlin [01:20:19] But they would have still let you get baptized even if you had confessed.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:20:22] Really? I didn't. I didn't know that. So I wasn't very honest with them.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:26] You. I really sense in you that this was. You were in a desperate state, and this is kind of part of that. And back to the love bombing. It's sort of like I feel hard for your mom around this. Like, sh. The issue with love bombing is what comes after love bombing. And she. It sounds like she know. She knew it all too well, that it wasn't free, you know? And so, yeah, I. I feel hard for her, and I feel hard for you, because the truth is, if this

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:21:04] saved you for a week, a month,

Margi Dehlin [01:21:09] and allowed you to sort of be in this place of softness for however long, till you were a little more stable, grounded, had a little more sense of yourself to kind of, you know, survival's real. We do what we do to survive. And there's not a huge choice, actually, in that. When we're really in a survival mode. Right. So I'm just so happy. With your resources, you were able to grapple and. And grab at something that kept you here.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:21:40] Yep, exactly. I was just clawing at anything.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:44] Yeah.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:21:45] And. And that's what it. Like, it was a lifetime of. Of my conditioning of what's good, what's right, what. What will lead me, what's the. The right path. And, like, that was just the closest thing.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:57] Yeah.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:21:59] But, you know, surprise. It wasn't a magic eraser. Okay, wait.

John Dehlin [01:22:04] So. Okay. So how'd you feel on the day your baptism? Just spiritually. The baptism, the gift of the Holy Ghost. Did you feel things spiritually?

Margi Dehlin [01:22:14] No.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:22:14] So, like, socially, like I said, like, everything lined up the way that I needed at that time. And, like.

John Dehlin [01:22:23] And you're 17, right?

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:22:24] I'm 17. But I remember sitting there and, you know, people were singing and talking, and there were people in the. The crowd or whatever, call it, like, crying. And I'm just like, why don't I. Like, why am I not. I wasn't emotional. I didn't. Yeah, the testimony, like, the. The spirit wasn't there for me even on that day, But.

John Dehlin [01:22:53] But the social stuff was. And how did that feel?

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:22:56] It was, like, a little overwhelming, but. And I also think it was like. I think my heart broke a little too, though, seeing how many people were there and like, oh, I would. Like, I was right. This really was it. I spent my whole life struggling and being like an outsider and this is all it took.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:19] Yeah.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:23:20] This is all that had to happen for there to be a hundred people in this room wanting to talk to me.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:26] Wow, that's.

John Dehlin [01:23:28] So you say that made you feel what?

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:23:30] I felt a little heartbroken that I had spent so long suffering. And I'm like, well, this. And this was it.

John Dehlin [01:23:38] Did you wish you had done it sooner or not? Oh, okay.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:23:40] I wish I had done it sooner. I think I also kind of wished that people just liked me for me and that I'm like, I really had to kind of put on this big show for people in this town to care about me.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:58] That's right. Yep. It reminds me of the fitting in belonging paradigm by Brene Brown. The difference between fitting in is that usually you're. You're sacrificing parts or pieces of yourself in order to be part of the group. As opposed to belonging, where you show up as you are and you're wanted and loved as you are.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:24:19] Yep. And like, Whereas, like, I. I wasn't really believing, Like, I knew it wasn't true, like, what they were saying about, like Joseph Smith and. And things like that. It was. I was like. The feeling of belonging was like. I think the closest thing to the spirit that I felt was like belonging and community. But it almost felt artifact. It felt artificial because it was.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:46] It's like almost you had a glimpse of. Wait, this is fitting in though?

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:24:49] This. Yeah. So this is what it's like to belong.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:53] Yeah.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:24:53] But there's still pieces missing. Because I knew it wasn't real.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:59] Yeah, that's right. What about feeling clean? What about feeling like you're new? Did you feel that on your.

Life After Baptism and Disillusionment with the Church

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:25:07] I did for a while. For some time. I.

Margi Dehlin [01:25:11] It did.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:25:12] It crept back up with me. But I think for a while knowing, because I think everybody knows that, like, when you get baptized, like, all your sins are washed away. Someone said it's like you're a brand new baby or something like that. And I knew that's how everyone else saw me. And so that gave me permission to feel that way about myself. But it wasn't a spirit. Does that make sense? Like, it wasn't spiritual or like religious that I really believed that, like, my soul was clean. It was like giving myself permission to feel that way about myself because I knew that's what everyone else saw in me.

John Dehlin [01:25:51] It's almost like your feelings about yourself were just mapping on to what you perceived the the social group thought about approach. So if the crowd thinks you're clean now, then you have permission to believe you're clean now.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:26:06] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:26:07] That's kind of messed up.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:26:08] Oh yeah. I had like. It's like, I think I just didn't have like a sense of self.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:13] Yeah, yeah. I was gonna say it's also psychologically on point and something developmentally. That's right.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:26:19] Is it okay? For a while I'm like. I was like. That was kind of crazy. But yeah, that's just the truth.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:26:26] So how did your Mormon life go?

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:26:29] It was short lived.

John Dehlin [01:26:30] Oh, really?

Margi Dehlin [01:26:31] Yeah.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:26:32] So because my heart wasn't in it, I struggled, I really tried to go to church and, and young women's and it was hard for me to go. I didn't, I didn't like to go. It also, like, why not? I didn't, I didn't like how it made me feel. I didn't believe what they were saying.

John Dehlin [01:26:52] I do, you know, what about it you didn't like or believe?

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:26:56] Well, I knew at the time, I mean when I was 17, like this was 2015, so I knew the church was homophobic.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:02] In.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:27:02] In my opinion, I. That did not sit right with me. I have always been. I've just always been like an ally and someone who believed people should be able to feel how they feel and live their life how they want to. And so that never sat well with me at all. I think the purity culture, actually going to church and stuff is. It is when it started to creep back in with me, even though I had been baptized.

John Dehlin [01:27:36] The worthiness stuff.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:27:37] The worthiness, knowing I hadn't been honest. I think there was like some guilt and just so much. I mean, shame is the word I would use for this period of my life. So much shame that it was hard to go and like pretend like I was like a believing member because I just wasn't. Yeah, I couldn't put on the show anymore.

John Dehlin [01:28:03] Did you like maintain these friendships, become besties with these people that helped bring

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:28:07] you in for a while? Yeah, the. In fact, the people who had kind of like cut me off and stopped being my friend after I had reached out for help, they like hopped right back into my life.

John Dehlin [01:28:19] The non Mormons, they were Mormon.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:28:21] They were Mormon.

Margi Dehlin [01:28:22] They just.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:28:22] Oh, they kind of were okay with hanging out with that.

Margi Dehlin [01:28:25] They were like edgy Mormon.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:28:26] They were edgy Mormon. They were cool with that. You know, we all listen to like the screamo music and like they liked the same music and we're tolerant to a point of of everybody. They didn't know the extent. Like they didn't know about the cigarettes and the drinking. Like, I think had they known, those people would have been cut off as well. But for me coming to them and telling them, hey, this is what's going on in this group and like, I need help or whatever, they were like, whoa, I didn't know any of this was happening and we were all kind of cut off. Does that make sense? So I don't think they knew the extent of what was happening, but they came to the baptism, wanted to be my friend again, which was, which felt amazing that I felt like I had earned these friends back.

Margi Dehlin [01:29:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:18] Okay. And you got us to dances. Did you start dating Mormon boys?

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:29:24] A little bit. Yeah. I mean it was all, it's like Mormon, so it's very casual, but like, yeah. Started hanging out with Mormon boys and we kind of like there was one situation where we kind of expressed we liked each other, but he's like, I can't. We're not, you know, getting into this. I'm going on a mission. He was graduating early to go on a mission. So like that was my next kind of like fling was somebody who was leaving on a mission. Got. I went to prom with a Mormon boy. But then my end of my senior year I actually met my husband. So. Who was also Mormon at the time.

John Dehlin [01:30:01] Okay.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:30:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:30:02] Was he a return missionary?

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:30:04] No, he never went on a mission. So he, his mom passed away when he was 17. So like right at the time that I was getting baptized, his mom passed away and kind of lost his faith at that time and wasn't even considering going on a mission.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:30:24] So you're the same age and you meet your senior year and fall in love. So what does your brain say to you about falling in love with the non believing Mormon boy after you'd been baptized?

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:30:35] It was such a relief.

John Dehlin [01:30:36] Why?

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:30:40] That just, I just knew that would have been, I would have been pretending my whole life and I knew I couldn't keep that up. But what I like what was good about him is he was, he was required to go to church every week. Required to go. He was, he's an Eagle Scout, all the things. So he was doing all that and he wasn't very, he wasn't anti Mormon. He's still not, you know, he wasn't very vocal, but he just, it was safe, he was safe to like not put up the front anymore.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:14] Right.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:31:14] But he wasn't this extreme dream of like, you know, what I had experienced before, it was a Lot safer.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:31:25] So then when you're like, hey, we like each other, but I'm still attending church. You're not attending church. Was there a conversation like that?

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:31:35] We didn't talk about it a lot. Yeah, he's like a. I mean, he's a big part of my story, but, like, the Mormon angle of my story. He's not a big part of it. He.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:46] We.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:31:47] It wasn't a huge conversation between us. I think I asked him kind of casually, like, are you going on mission? And she's like, no, I. You know, I didn't ask a lot about it. I knew that he wasn't. Like, we both just weren't into it.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:01] I was gonna ask what it felt like in your home with your mom after you were baptized, like, how it felt between you two, kind of how you navigated your relationship after making that defining move.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:32:20] Yeah. Those were some of the hardest years.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:22] Okay.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:32:23] Like, I. I think I said, like, a little bit before. Like, we weren't really talking, and I think it was a big reason. It was hard to go to church because it was, like, a big fight every time before.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:35] Okay.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:32:35] Like, she. She was really put. Like, even though I had been baptized, like, I think she didn't think I was gonna do it, and I did. And then it was. Yeah, there was.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:46] We.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:32:47] We fought a lot during that time.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:49] Okay.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:32:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:32:52] So you mentioned your outline. This is just kind of summarizing. You wrote, I became more immersed in Mormonism just to realize that my pain, pain, shame, and trauma were all still there.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:33:03] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:33:03] Do you want to talk about that? Just as like a. Yeah.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:33:07] So I. You know, once. Once the. It all kind of weared off. You know, the love bomb. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:33:16] Did it wear off?

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:33:16] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:33:18] Describe that.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:33:20] I mean, a lot of the people who are at my baptism, like, they never spoke to me again. Like, after that, I think socially things were just easier because it was a small enough town that, like, everyone knew pretty much that I had been baptized. So now I was acceptable. Today, I was acceptable to be asked to the prom. And so that part got easier. But I wasn't being, like, praised in the same way. No one was telling me how amazing I was anymore. And so, yeah, it just kind of wore off. Like, the love bombing, and which it

John Dehlin [01:33:59] always does because it's not sustainable.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:34:01] Not sustainable.

John Dehlin [01:34:02] Yeah. So it's like a withdrawal of a drug almost.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:34:05] Yeah. Yeah, it was. I was like, okay. But. Yeah, then you just kind of realize, like, oh, like, I'm still traumatized. I can't. I can't just completely forget about everything I went through and I still feel this shame. And there was still just kind of like a darkness that I think I really thought would go away.

John Dehlin [01:34:29] But the social acceptance didn't make up for that.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:34:33] No. Like you said, it was like a drug that wore off. Like, wasn't cutting it anymore.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:39] It didn't cover. It wasn't large enough to cover the pain. It sounds like it wasn't a way.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:34:46] And some of those issues I dealt with were. It was like real men, real mental health issues. And so.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:51] That's right.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:34:52] Like there's so much, you know, that just social acceptance isn't going to heal.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:59] That's right. And it also sounds like your experience being in those social, religious situations was almost like you still felt other though you still felt like, you know, you had access now. But am I right in saying that you have the access to the people and to, like, your basic, you know, needs or rights as a human being, but you actually didn't feel the same?

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:35:31] No. And like, it kind of brought out other things that made me different. Right. So, I mean, a lot of people who go to Davis are very. Well, it's a very wealthy school. Like, a lot of kids were driving, like, brand new Range Rovers and it's a very divisive school there. They had like a north end and south end. And if you hung out the north end, like, you were probably a geek and like, you know, weird things like that. That I.

John Dehlin [01:35:57] What was the south end?

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:35:58] The south end was like, you were probably wealthy. You're popular.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:04] Breakfast Club is alive.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:36:06] It was like a movie there. There's a staircase called the Stoop. And if you're really, really popular, you got to hang out there between classes. But anyway, I wasn't. What? I wasn't one of. I still was. I still was different. You know, I live, you know, me and my family were like, low income. My parents were divorced. My mom was going to school full time.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:36:28] I still.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:36:30] I was Mormon. I still didn't have that family that I thought, you know, I didn't have that perfect family.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:39] Yes. It didn't fix it.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:36:41] It didn't fix it. I was still. I still felt alone. I still felt different and. And especially, like, alone in my household, you know, like, my relationship with my mom was so damaged from that. Like, we weren't getting along. I was. I was still, like, so alone.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:58] Yeah. Yep.

John Dehlin [01:37:00] Oh, it's kind of that wherever you go, there you are. You know what I mean?

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:37:04] Yeah, that's exactly right.

John Dehlin [01:37:05] You can't Run from yourself.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:37:07] I couldn't run from myself.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:09] I couldn't.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:37:10] I couldn't wash away my myself.

John Dehlin [01:37:15] So. So you say you met your boyfriend and that coincide and the love bombing stopped. So you just started what, to lose interest in the church and decide it wasn't gonna really fix what you thought or what. How did, how did your inactivity sort of develop and then how did that. How did you deal with that in relation to the family that helped convert you? Your grandma, family and friends that were believers, and then even your mom and siblings.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:37:48] So I kept up a front for a lot of people. Even like my husband's family is still very orthodox. His dad three married and very orthodox. We, we me and him put up a pretty good front. Like going. We would go to church with his family because he lived far away. He lived in Heber. I was in Kaysville, so like an hour apart. So I had some cut. We met through my cousin and my cousin lives up there. And so I would stay there the weekend and then I would go to church with his family every Sunday. And so I think like, to everyone around us, like all was in line.

John Dehlin [01:38:29] Okay.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:38:30] So it was still kind of like a silent internal.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:33] Yep.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:38:34] Thing. And like I said, like, I didn't. We didn't have a lot of conversations about it. Me and my husband and I at the time. I don't think he knew what he was doing or.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:44] Yeah, yeah.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:38:45] Not. He's a. He's his own story. But yeah, it wasn't a big conversation. I think we were just kind of going through the motions for quite some time.

John Dehlin [01:38:53] So it wasn't like, hey, everyone, I'm leaving the church now.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:38:55] No, no, no, no. And we, we also like, we got married really. Like, we were engaged at 20 and we lived in Orem. And so we were like very immersed in the culture and like definitely going through the motions.

John Dehlin [01:39:09] Still not byu.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:39:11] Not be. I would. I graduated from uvu.

John Dehlin [01:39:13] Did he have to explain his parents why he wasn't going on or his dad, why was he going on a mission? Did he come out as a non believer to his dad or family?

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:39:22] No, I, I think he. That's that conversation. Still not like had his. His dad is a, a convert from Mexico.

John Dehlin [01:39:31] Okay.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:39:31] And very, very respectful guy. And hasn't. He hasn't dug into it or anything. He's like very like, I just love you for my son. I just want to be in your life. So he has a very good, respectful.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:48] Okay, it sounds non confrontational.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:39:51] Non confrontational. So it hasn't Additional and more.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:54] Yep. Which Lovely.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:39:57] Very unconditional. His. Yeah, his. His dad's amazing. So I.

John Dehlin [01:40:01] Because he's a convert. I don't know.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:40:03] I think like maybe the Hispanic culture and conver. And just who they are. I'm not sure. Just very loving and accepting and. But aren't we here for it? We're here for it. And they, they have asked like can we, you know, I have an 11 month old and they've asked to bless him and we've, you know, just politely declined and we do worry about in the future like it being kind of an. Not an issue but just some. I think it's going to have to be something we talk about eventually.

John Dehlin [01:40:37] What about with your mom and your grandma?

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:40:42] Haven't had a conversation with my grandma. I, I think she knows but doesn't know the extent of.

John Dehlin [01:40:49] Because of the tattoos.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:40:51] Yeah, yeah, I was kidding. But no, I mean I'm sure she, she can make her assumptions but yeah, she hasn't pried either. Me and my mom have had a lot of amazing conversations about that period. She has a lot of regret about how she handled the situation. She definitely sees now like you, you just needed.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:17] Yeah.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:41:18] Some love and acceptance and like she's apologized like I'm sorry I made it harder on you and you know, she was going through her own.

John Dehlin [01:41:26] Yeah.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:41:26] Things and so yeah, things are a lot better now and she's like totally understanding of what went down and why and yeah, we've had a lot of really good conversations about that.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:38] How do you navigate going back to your grandmother? How do you navigate kind of family systems gatherings so Sunday things or now.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:41:51] Now in my life, like as an adult I'm a lot better at boundaries and I, I don't attend a lot of things and I think over the years I think everyone's of kind. Kind of like uncomfortability with each other has kind of separated us. So there's not as many of those gatherings or reunions I think now I have a lot of like quite a few cousins who are I would imagine not active or you know, I, I think it's actually a lot more common now. People are kind of. I think it's like they're like quiet quitting, like quiet leaving just kind of. They're not, not everyone I think is making like big declarations. But you could, I can kind of spot who's like I don't think they're. Yeah, they're attending anymore.

The Forever Families Ideal and Feeling Like an Outsider

John Dehlin [01:42:41] But you write this culture of happy forever families. Told me my family wasn't Good enough. Do you want to? Because like I think Mormons, I think universally Mormons would say the best teaching in all of Mormonism is the teaching of forever families. So it's all. And maybe the atonement, like would be the other one, Jesus in the atonement. But like any Mormon is going to read that phrase, the happy forever families teaching is problematic. Do you want to address that?

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:43:14] Yeah, I think that's absolutely true because again from my education, what I know now is there are so many ways to be a family and so many. There's such a variety of families out there and to say there's only one way to be a family is so crazy and harmful to kids everywhere. And I think to, to me growing up, even when my parents were married, we were not, we were not tight knit.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:48] Right.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:43:48] And to have like my parents divorced, to have my mom working and in school, like she, she was like a boss, like single mom and but you know, I, what I saw was a lot of like stay at home moms who were like very involved in the school and very involved in activities. Like my mom couldn't be there. She was either, you know, she was going to Weber State.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:11] Yeah.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:44:12] Or at work. And so yeah, there was just throughout my life there was always some way that my family wasn't measuring up to what I thought they were supposed to be. Right.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:22] And taking, just speaking to your mom, your mom is absolutely being heroic and developing herself and. But within a Mormon system, she's gonna not get any. You're not gonna hear how valuable that is.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:44:39] Nope.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:39] What you hear is valuable is kind of being home serving callings, right?

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:44:47] Yep. 1, 100%. And, and that's what I saw growing up was, you know, like my mom wasn't in the PTA or you know, there's, it felt like maybe, oh, my mom's not involved in this way because we're not Mormon. Which wasn't true. Like lots of parents work, you know, but it did feel, I did feel left out or you know, othered or different in that way that like my mom wasn't as present as what I saw Mormon kids, moms were.

John Dehlin [01:45:21] It's so tricky because I think it's okay for a group or a culture to have like a standard or like an ideal to strive for. But it almost seems unavoidable that if any cultural group has an ideal, it's going to make a bunch of other people feel like they're inadequate or inferior or don't live up. And on the one hand, I don't think the answer is for cultures or groups not to have ideals or standards. But then how do you have an ideal or a standard and make everybody else feel like they're just as good? Yeah, it's almost impossible.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:45:54] 100%1. And I think a problem. The problem that we see is, like, when your ideals or standards exclude so many people and excludes so many groups, I think that's when we really. I really start to have a problem with it, which that ultimately is why I'm like, I want. I don't even want my name associated with this organization. That was when I was like, I think I was 23 or 24.

John Dehlin [01:46:19] So you mentioned 2018.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:46:21] 2018, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:46:22] You did what?

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:46:24] I took my name off church records. I. I became actually very aware of, like, the racist background and the real homophobia within the organization.

John Dehlin [01:46:34] How'd you learn about that?

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:46:36] I mean, social media now is a lot better. Even when I was in high school, I wasn't coming across that, but, like, Mormon stories and a lot of ex Mormons speaking out is how. Online is how I found out about that background and was actually able to, like, see talks that were. That happened, you know, in the past. And that was when I was like, that was a hard stop for me.

John Dehlin [01:47:01] Seeing past Mormon leaders say racist and homophobic things.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:47:07] Made you say, I can't stay a member.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:47:08] I can't stay a member. And getting a college education in family science and learning, you know, their standards for, like, what a family is. It's just. It's not real life. It's a.

John Dehlin [01:47:22] The church. The Mormon church's standards.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:47:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:47:24] For, like, the traditional patriarchal Husband works, mom stays home, lots of kids.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:47:30] You're saying what I'm saying it's a fantasy. That it. It's unfair, and it excludes so many groups. And I now, like, in my life, I know so many different types of families and people, and, like, they're all. They're all beautiful. They're all, like, worthy and great. And I. I just, at that point in 2018, I did not want my name associated with the church anymore and was comfortable saying, like, I don't stand for this.

Therapy, Healing, and Redefining Forgiveness

John Dehlin [01:48:02] You also mentioned coming to a realization about forgiveness and love. God versus yourself. Do you want to talk about that?

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:48:11] Yeah. So I, over the years, got involved in EMDR therapy.

John Dehlin [01:48:16] What is that? For those who don't know?

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:48:18] For those who don't know, it is revisiting memories and reworking them, like, revisiting the feelings going back to the memory, and you almost feel it all over again what you felt then and you kind of dissect it and heal from the bottom up.

John Dehlin [01:48:44] There's usually like lights. There's. There's always some sort of bilateral. Bilateral stimulation for my eye movement.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:48:52] Yeah. So for. For mine, I had like a screen and there was a dot that moved back and forth to clicking in side by side headphones. So. And you, you know, close your eyes and you do your best to really, like, focus and bring yourself back to those really traumatic moments and times and talk through them. What, you know, what that made you believe about the world and yourself and. Yeah, just working through that.

John Dehlin [01:49:27] Are you comfortable sharing what. Aha. Realizations you had from EMDR and.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:49:32] Yeah, I mean, just realizing, like, how young I was and like doing that inner child work, like revisiting and like, like imagining sitting there with that little girl. It was so emotional and just really realizing that that little girl was like, so deserving of love and acceptance and that's not something that should have to be earned. And that even the traumatic things I went through, like that those things didn't say, that didn't tell a story about me. Like, those are just. Just for things that happened and like, just completely changing what I believed about myself.

Margi Dehlin [01:50:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:50:23] Yeah. You wrote, I finally gave myself the forgiveness and love I was told only God could give me.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:50:30] Yes. Because that is what I really believed or was told for the longest time was that I needed church or God to give me the permission to. To be okay with myself, to love myself. That I needed that permission from God or the church. And I think that therapy really taught me that. It was like I could give myself that permission.

John Dehlin [01:51:00] Yeah. Wow, that sounds radical.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:51:03] Yeah, it was, it was, it was, it was like its own spiritual awakening. But just like, just knowing, like, I had all this within me because for so long I was searching externally like, okay, I need the perfect family or I need these friendships or I need to go to church or like, I need some. I need these people to believe that I'm good. For me to believe that I'm good.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:29] Right.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:51:31] And then just kind of discovering that it's all. It's all me and none of those external things. We're gonna. We're gonna fulfill me. I had to give that to myself.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:44] Yeah.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:51:44] I had to forgive myself for. For all of it.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:51:52] If you know that there's a. There's a mindset I could imagine, which is, man, the church didn't work out for me, but I'm so grateful it was there for me during a rough time and Maybe even saved me in a way to like, oh, what a detour. The church misled me and it was harmful for me. And, you know, they love bomb me, and then they went through the love and it was all fake. Let's just say those are two ends of a spectrum. Looking back now, where do you kind of. Where are you sitting with, like, on that spectrum?

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:52:26] Let's say, like, somewhere smack in the middle.

John Dehlin [01:52:29] Okay.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:52:30] I think, like, both of those things are true at the same time.

Margi Dehlin [01:52:33] That's right.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:52:36] I think I wish that there wasn't this culture in the church where, like, so much has to be earned even if you are a member. There's so much conditional love and support. I wish that wasn't the case. I wish that I had just, like, people had just seen you. Person I am and seen that, like, it doesn't matter what religion you are, but, like, you're just a good person.

Margi Dehlin [01:53:08] Yeah.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:53:08] Yeah. I wish there was more of, like, a diversity of people to interact with and be friends with, you know, in Utah culture. They're just. It. There wasn't.

John Dehlin [01:53:20] Yeah.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:53:20] At the time. But I also do feel like it was kind of like it did pull me out of the space that I was in. Yeah, it totally did. And it kind of. It did salvage the last of my high school experience. So it wasn't all bad. You know, when I get down into it, I'm like, well, I mean, it was because I got baptized, but it did salvage kind of like a. Maybe somewhat of a normal teenage experience. Got to go to the prom and. And, you know, have some friends for a little while. So I think both are true. I don't feel like, any anger or resentment towards the church for that reason. I'm very aware that it was just like, the conditioning.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:11] I'm curious also if that experience made

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:54:14] you

Margi Dehlin [01:54:17] more sensitive to relationships where you have to fit. Like, you're noticing, you're fitting in. You notice actually I'm filtering here, or I'm not being authentic here, or. And if that's something that came out of that experience, having lived what it was like to be part of the group, but then being required almost to kind of show up that way.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:54:44] I wish that I had learned that lesson the first time around through that experience. Unfortunately, it did take me some more time.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:52] Yeah.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:54:53] So I think through that conditioning and even coming out of it, it still stuck with me, and I still found myself in situations throughout my early 20s.

Margi Dehlin [01:55:05] That makes sense with people

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:55:08] where I there, I'm like, okay, I need to perform, or, like, mask A little bit to get approval or find acceptance. And then, you know, as soon as. Just like my experience with Mormonism, as soon as that front breaks, everything kind of crumbles. And like, it. That did happen again in my early 20s.

Margi Dehlin [01:55:32] Yeah.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:55:32] With a group of people. But I Now I do from that experience. Like, I just. I just needed to be. I just needed to learn. Have the experience a couple times to learn it. But now I do. Now I. And it. That experience helped me see, like, create awareness. Create awareness and like, look back and be like, okay, this is a pattern of mine.

Margi Dehlin [01:55:55] Yeah, that's right.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:55:56] Yeah.

Reflecting on Utah, the Church, and Moving Forward

John Dehlin [01:55:59] Would it be a stretch to say you feel at least some gratitude for the church for being there when you needed it, in spite of the toxicity of the culture it also created in Utah?

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:56:12] That would be a nice thing to say that I had gratitude.

John Dehlin [01:56:16] Well, yeah. I'm not. I don't want you to say things you don't know.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:56:18] I. Yeah, I don't. I don't feel that. I don't feel that. I think. I think it really. It could have been anything, honestly. I think it was the closest thing that I had at the time. And I. In my life, I think they created the church, created more harm than good.

Margi Dehlin [01:56:38] It's kind of like I would imagine it created the root problem, presented itself like a conforming way to solve that problem that in the end didn't solve that problem.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:56:55] Right. And like I said, I still experience that in two to my, like, even outside Mormonism, the conditioning of, like, needing to conform, needing acceptance.

Margi Dehlin [01:57:06] Yeah.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:57:06] For survival and like, not wanting to experience that loneliness again, it dry. It drove me to do the same thing, like just not having boundaries. Not like being able to say, like, this is who I am. You should accept me the way I am. You know, that was something that followed me even into adulthood.

Margi Dehlin [01:57:30] Yeah. I mean, that makes sense to me that it would.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:57:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:57:35] And for better, for worse. Different viewers might feel differently about this, but the Utah landscape has dramatically changed between 2015 and 2025. Salt Lake county is now more non Mormon than Mormon. Wards and stakes and chapels are all closing across Utah, even in the Sandy Cottonwood Heights, even in the Draper. That's not to say the church is shrinking everywhere. I guess in Utah county, there are areas where the church is still growing. But weirdly, I just read a recent report, I think, from the Pew foundation that said that Utah was like, in the top five in the country for religious switching away from religion. In other words, Utah had a higher percentage of people leaving religion than like 45 other states in the country. And so for better, for worse, Utah is becoming less Mormon.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:58:36] Yeah. Well, and it's interesting because, you know, I'm still like, Facebook friends or Instagram friends with a lot of these kids from high school.

John Dehlin [01:58:43] Yeah.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:58:43] And I'm like, the lot of the kids who kind of outcasted me and. Or, you know, didn't want anything to do with me or what are now ex Mormons.

John Dehlin [01:58:53] Oh, really?

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:58:55] Or, you know, some. One of the people who cut me off is, like, is gay and out in, like, in a. An, you know, public relationship. And. And I'm so happy for that. I think that's great. And it is kind of, like, interesting to see, though. The. I'm like, wow, like, you caused me a lot of pain. And now, you know, and now you're not even a part of it anymore. But I feel more, like, glad for them than anything else. But it is just kind of interesting to see.

Margi Dehlin [01:59:28] Yeah, that is interesting.

John Dehlin [01:59:31] Well, man, what a brilliant story. And we're like, under two hours.

Gabrielle Zelaya [01:59:35] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:59:36] I don't think that's ever happened before, but. No. Before we end, Margi, did you have any final thoughts or questions?

Reconnecting with Mom and Final Reflections

Margi Dehlin [01:59:41] I think I was going to just. I'm curious what it has looked like you've talked about a little bit with your mom, how you've had conversations to kind of connect and fill in some of the spaces of what was going on with her. It sounds like she's apologized and so a lot of connecting, deep connecting there. How else have you navigated kind of

Gabrielle Zelaya [02:00:09] healing,

Margi Dehlin [02:00:11] your personal healing and your healing with your mom? Is there anything else you want to add? And let me just provide a caveat. I think healing can be looked at as, like, neat and tidy. Like, you. You heal it and we're good. And that's not what I'm talking about. I view healing as, like, ongoing, oftentimes practicing new. If there's conditioning involved, you're. You're actually, you know, practicing new ways of thinking for the rest of your life. Right. Like, sometimes that's the healing or just regulating your nervous system is healing and can go on for the rest of your life. So it's not. I'm not talking about healing is like, I put a bow on that, and I'm just feeling so past that.

Gabrielle Zelaya [02:01:03] Right, right.

Margi Dehlin [02:01:04] But what are. What is healing looked like for you and also in your relationship with your mom, that repair work?

Gabrielle Zelaya [02:01:12] Yes. So still in therapy, I don't know when I won't be. Just. There's always something I'm uncovering And yeah, I love what you said. I think it's absolutely true here. Like, healing doesn't happen in a straight line. And I do find myself all the time. Like, sometimes it does sit a little differently, you know, what happened. And sometimes I do still feel angry.

Gabrielle Zelaya [02:01:37] Luckily, with her, like, we do have an open line of communication where, like, it's something we talk about often. And now as a mom myself, I realize, like, even parents are trying to heal. And, you know, I know she didn't have a lot of tools or support herself for her own healing. And, you know, there's no handbook. I know that as a parent now.

Gabrielle Zelaya [02:02:05] So, yeah, I think just continuing to talk about it and. Yeah, just like holding space for all these feelings that. And things that I've experienced, I even like. Yeah, like I said, having a child, it even, like, brings it up in all a new way.

Margi Dehlin [02:02:23] Right.

Gabrielle Zelaya [02:02:23] And all the. Now all these fears I have, like, raising my son here, is he gonna experience.

Margi Dehlin [02:02:29] Yeah.

Gabrielle Zelaya [02:02:29] The same thing that I did and just allowing myself to feel all that.

John Dehlin [02:02:35] And some choose to move.

Gabrielle Zelaya [02:02:38] And I. I have, I think, like, what. What you said about, like, Salt Lake is so, like, I do think it would be a different upbringing raising him in Salt Lake, but me and my husband have considered, like, moving out of state just to. I don't want him. I. Yeah. I don't want him raised in the culture that I was raised in, for sure.

Margi Dehlin [02:02:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:02:59] So not Davis County.

Gabrielle Zelaya [02:03:01] Oh, yeah, we won't. My dad would love that. But no, he won't be more predominantly Mormon now.

John Dehlin [02:03:06] Utah county, not Davis County.

Gabrielle Zelaya [02:03:08] It would be. It will have to be so Salt Lake or, you know, we've considered maybe going to California just because of that fear.

John Dehlin [02:03:16] One thing I learned, I got into the ultimate Frisbee community when my kids were in high school. And there are a lot of Never Mormons who move here for work. They send their kids to private schools. So there's like Catholic private schools. Even, like atheist parents send their kids to Catholic private schools like Judge Memorial or. I know there's others because in the private schools there's more tolerance, but also, you know, a healthy, strong, vibrant community socially where you don't have to be

Margi Dehlin [02:03:49] Mormon or like West High School isn't private.

John Dehlin [02:03:52] West High School is great. I've heard Skyline High School's great.

Margi Dehlin [02:03:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:03:56] For not Olympus so much. But there are high schools like west and Skyline and private schools where non Mormon kids are just normal.

Gabrielle Zelaya [02:04:07] They're just driving.

John Dehlin [02:04:08] Yeah.

Gabrielle Zelaya [02:04:09] Yeah. Like, I would never want my son to experience, you know, like, Davis High School at our senior year, almost every day of the week was a missionary call opening.

John Dehlin [02:04:21] Yeah.

Gabrielle Zelaya [02:04:21] Farewells like constant. And I don't ever want him to

John Dehlin [02:04:25] feel that those bleed into schools.

Gabrielle Zelaya [02:04:28] Oh, my gosh. Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:04:29] Now they lowered the mission age to 18. Kids are getting.

Gabrielle Zelaya [02:04:32] When I. It had been lowered. When I. You. It had just been lowered. So a lot of guys I knew were. Were hurrying to graduate early so they could just go on their mission.

John Dehlin [02:04:43] And so there's mission call buzz in high schools in Utah. I had no.

Gabrielle Zelaya [02:04:48] Oh, my gosh. It was a huge part of like, it was graduation season. But like, mission call opening as a

John Dehlin [02:04:56] part of your high school experience.

Gabrielle Zelaya [02:04:58] That was high school. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:05:00] So for never Mormons, what's that like when all the buzz is who got called to what mission, you know, in high school.

Gabrielle Zelaya [02:05:05] And can you imagine?

Margi Dehlin [02:05:06] It's so wild. I remember first moving to Utah, just the lack of separation between church and state, being out in public places, also official school events and having prayers or. It was extremely disorienting. Yeah. Hard to express.

Gabrielle Zelaya [02:05:29] Like. Yeah, I can't. Yeah. I can't express what a big part of the school life is. Like, like we said, the seminary buildings just like plopped right there next to the.

Margi Dehlin [02:05:39] Yeah.

Gabrielle Zelaya [02:05:40] To the school.

John Dehlin [02:05:41] Yeah. Interesting.

Gabrielle Zelaya [02:05:43] Big part.

John Dehlin [02:05:44] So interesting. Okay. All right. So we'll just. It'll be fun to watch Utah over the next five or ten years to see what non Mormonization of Utah high schools looks like.

Gabrielle Zelaya [02:05:57] It's going to be. It's going to be really interesting to see.

Margi Dehlin [02:06:01] It's.

Gabrielle Zelaya [02:06:01] It's fun. Yeah. Salt Lake is definitely, I think, like a great haven for non Mormons or never Mormons. Like.

John Dehlin [02:06:08] Yeah.

Gabrielle Zelaya [02:06:08] There's a lot of acceptance and.

Margi Dehlin [02:06:12] Yeah.

Gabrielle Zelaya [02:06:12] For all kinds of people.

John Dehlin [02:06:13] I gotta think East High School has a lot of non Mormons.

Gabrielle Zelaya [02:06:16] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think so too. I think Salt Lake is.

John Dehlin [02:06:20] Yeah.

Gabrielle Zelaya [02:06:21] Is a great place. I, you know, I haven't experienced. I think it, like, things would be different even now if I were living in like, Davis County.

John Dehlin [02:06:28] Yeah.

Gabrielle Zelaya [02:06:29] But living in Salt Lake has been a great.

Margi Dehlin [02:06:31] Oh, I can imagine moving and actually considering. And I actually think it's, you know, moving requires a lot of money, a lot of resources, a lot of. I feel so all the support for looking at different places, different soil for you within the state that actually, you know, you can make a bit of a move and actually experience quite a different life within the state. So.

Gabrielle Zelaya [02:07:06] And I think that's important for people to know, like, you know, if you're living in Utah county or Davis County. I just feel overwhelmed and consumed by this culture. There is, like, Salt Lake is better.

Margi Dehlin [02:07:18] Yeah.

Gabrielle Zelaya [02:07:19] I guess I should mention I did move. We lived in. Me and my husband lived in New York for a year, and that was a healing experience.

Margi Dehlin [02:07:25] Oh, yeah.

Gabrielle Zelaya [02:07:26] Because we got to see, like, we kind of got immersed in our neighborhood, community, and, like, you know, some people don't even know what Mormonism is there. They're like, oh, is that the. I think I've seen, like, a. A show about that or something.

John Dehlin [02:07:39] Aren't they Amish?

Gabrielle Zelaya [02:07:40] Yeah. You know, they don't even know. They're like, oh, are there lots of polygamists where you live? Like, they don't even know it's illegal. Is it still elite? I don't even know if it's illegal still.

John Dehlin [02:07:48] Polygamy is illegal. Yeah. But it's not. It's not enforced in a lot of places. Yeah.

Gabrielle Zelaya [02:07:52] Yeah. So that was a great. I'm like, there are. There's a world out there, like, right. You know, when we moved there in my early 20s, like, there's a world out there, like, where there's communities of people and nobody cares.

Margi Dehlin [02:08:06] Yeah.

Gabrielle Zelaya [02:08:07] Like what. Where you come from, what your.

Margi Dehlin [02:08:10] That's right.

Gabrielle Zelaya [02:08:10] Upbringing is. And, like, people just can love each other and accept each other. And, like, seeing it was like, this isn't humanity. This is a very. You. This was Utah culture. Warming culture. Not all of humanity was a healing experience. Yes.

Margi Dehlin [02:08:28] That makes. I can imagine. And I'm so glad you had that.

Gabrielle Zelaya [02:08:32] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:08:32] Yeah.

Gabrielle Zelaya [02:08:33] It makes it more tolerable. Like, and, you know, we. Funny enough, like, we missed it here. Like, Utah's. You know, we. We missed it here, so we came back and. But now knowing I'm like, this is just kind of a funny little culture, like, little pocket of the world. That's kind of interesting. This is not the world.

Margi Dehlin [02:08:53] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:08:54] Amen. Oh, I guess we didn't mention Cash Valley. Cache Valley can be rough, like Utah county and Davis county, but Ogden can be pretty secular. Right? Ogden?

Gabrielle Zelaya [02:09:06] Well, a little. Maybe a little bit. I think Ogden is still pretty more, but maybe less so than. Yeah. The Cache Valley or Utah. Utah County.

John Dehlin [02:09:16] All right, well, any final words? This has been so wonderful, Gabby. I can't thank you enough. Any final words before we. Before we end?

Gabrielle Zelaya [02:09:24] No, just thank you for letting me share my story. I think it was really, like, further healing to own my story and be able to just, like, this is what happened, and here I am. So thank you for letting me share that.

John Dehlin [02:09:43] Thank you. I am kind of curious how someone never raised Mormon and who is only Mormon for a few years would find Mormon stories interesting. You know what I mean? Although I do have a lot of non Mormons in Utah say thank you for Mormon stories because it helps me understand the culture I'm living in.

Gabrielle Zelaya [02:10:02] Yeah, I don't know, I just, I find it fascinating. And yeah, even just having been a part of it for a short while, ex Mormon content is fascinating to me. And I love hearing, like, the variety of experiences and knowing, just knowing you're not alone. Even though mine is kind of a unique story, you know, maybe it's not, you know, and now maybe, maybe some people can relate to me. I'm not sure. But it is a unique one.

John Dehlin [02:10:34] Yeah. Well, thank you. Well, please, listeners and viewers, please leave comments on YouTube or Spotify or wherever you consume the podcast. Those comments we read. Everyone, if you want to tell Gabby how much you enjoyed the story, we'd love to hear those types of comments. We love your email. So please email us@mormonstoriesgmail.com with any thoughts or feedback. The way we found out about you, you just applied, right?

Gabrielle Zelaya [02:11:01] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was just curious. One day I'm like, like, I wonder if there's other people who would relate to my story. I wonder how I, how people get on this podcast and went to your website and yeah, I was like, okay, I was, I was nervous and I honestly didn't think I'd hear back. So when I got your email, I was, like, elated. I was so excited.

John Dehlin [02:11:22] Yeah. And so, yeah, please. We're always, you know, we have more applications than we could ever accept and we're always looking for new and interesting stories that maybe our audience hasn't heard or that we think will hit in special ways. So again, go to Mormon Stories. Find the button to apply. You have to record a three minute video. If you don't record the three minute video, you probably won't even be considered because we want to hear that you know enough about our podcast that you can conceptualize how you think your story will fit or resonate with our audience. So that's really important. So please apply.

John Dehlin [02:12:03] We encourage you to apply. Please make that three minute video. And then the only thing, other thing I'll say is we really, you know, we depend on our donors to make all this possible. So thank you. If you're a donor, you are. Literally, you made today possible. If we're also losing donors every month. I think we had 10 donors cancel last month. If we don't replace those with new donors, then we have to start cutting back. So if you're. If you value this content and you're not currently contributing, please go to MormonStories.org click on the Donate button. Become a monthly donor, and we'll keep doing this stuff in addition to donating.

John Dehlin [02:12:43] Or if you can't donate, don't worry if you just subscribe to the channels, comment like, you know, thumbs up our episodes comment, all that sharing the episodes, that helps a lot. So there are different ways you can help in addition to donating. So that's it. Thanks again, Gabby.

Gabrielle Zelaya [02:13:02] Thank you so much.

Margi Dehlin [02:13:03] We honor your story and are just really wishing you all the love in your life.

Gabrielle Zelaya [02:13:09] Thank you. That means the world. I'm so happy I got to share.

John Dehlin [02:13:12] Yeah. And thanks, Margi. It's great to have you.

Margi Dehlin [02:13:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:13:14] All right.

Margi Dehlin [02:13:15] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:13:15] All right, everyone, take care. Be good to each other, be kind to each other, and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.