Were the 8 witnesses to Joseph Smith’s golden plates actually credible? Or just gullible relatives caught up in his delusion? Shockingly candid statements from witnesses like Hiram Page and John Whitmer seem to contradict and undermine official LDS teachings about their testimonies. What are the implications of the past witnesses on today’s modern church?
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Witnesses Series:
- 1886: Are the 3 Witnesses to the Book of Mormon Credible? w/ LDS Discussions Ep. 52
- 1898: Additional “Witnesses” of the Book of Mormon Gold Plates | LDS Discussions Ep. 54
- 1905: Witnesses Roundup & Finale – LDS Discussions Ep 55
Show Notes:
- Martin Harris (Latter Day Saints) – Wikipedia
- The Joseph Smith Papers: A comprehensive digital collection of the papers of Joseph Smith
- Lucy Mack Smith, History, 1844–1845, Page [1], bk. 9 (josephsmithpapers.org)
- Letterbook 2, Page 64 (josephsmithpapers.org)
- Printer’s Manuscript of the Book of Mormon, circa August 1829–circa January 1830, Page 464 (josephsmithpapers.org)
- History, 1838–1856, volume A-1 [23 December 1805–30 August 1834], Page 6 (josephsmithpapers.org)
- Revelation, March 1829 [D&C 5], Page 1 (josephsmithpapers.org)
- History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints : Roberts, B. H. (Brigham Henry), 1857-1933
- Roughing It : Mark Twain
- See the Original Book of Mormon Manuscript (churchofjesuschrist.org)
- The true origin of the Book of Mormon : Shook, Charles Augustus, 1876-
- Hiram Page and his Seer Stone – LostMormonism.com
- Latter Day Saints’ messenger and advocate, Vol. II – Nineteenth Century Mormon Publications – Digital Collections (byu.edu)
- Times and Seasons Vol 1 – Nineteenth Century Mormon Publications – Digital Collections (byu.edu)
- The city of the Mormons, or, Three days at Nauvoo, in 1842 by Henry Caswall
- Other Witnesses (fullerconsideration.com)
- Letter from Martha Campbell, 19 December 1843, Page 1 (josephsmithpapers.org)
- Scraps of biography : designed for the instruction and encouragement of young Latter-day Saints
- Early Mormon Documents: Volume 5 : Dan Vogel : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
- Deseret News 1878-08-14 – Deseret News 3 – Digital Collections (byu.edu)
- Fayette Lapham – The Mormons (fullerconsideration.com)
- The Latter-day Saints’ Millennial Star Vol. 25; – Millennial Star – Digital Collections (byu.edu)
- A History of Illinois, from Its Commencement as a State in 1818 to 1847 : Thomas Ford, James Shields
- Ensign of Liberty 1847-1849 : William E. McLellin
- ‘Take Heed Continually’: Protecting the Gold Plates (churchofjesuschrist.org)
- An introduction to the study of bibliography, to which is prefixed a memoir on the public libraries of the antients : Horne, Thomas Hartwell, 1780-1862
- The star in the east : a sermon preached in the Parish Church of St. James, Bristol, on Sunday February 26, 1809, for the benefit of the Society for Missions to Africa and the East : Buchanan, Claudius, 1766-1815
- Indian Origins and the Book of Mormon : Dan Vogel
- The golden bible; or, The Book of Mormon : is it from God? : Lamb, M. T. (Martin Thomas), 1838-1912
- An address to the sons and daughters of Zion, scattered abroad, through all the earth [Francis Gladden Bishop] : Bishop, Francis Gladden 1809-1864
- Vol. 02 Journal of Discourses – Journal of Discourses – Digital Collections (byu.edu)
- David Whitmer and His Changing Recollections (xmission.com)
Mormon Stories Related:
- Book of Mormon Overview: The Gold Plates of the Book of Mormon (ldsdiscussions.com)
- 1734: Problematic Patterns in Joseph Smith’s Revelations | LDS Discussions Ep. 36
- 1651: Priesthood Restoration w/ LDS Discussions – 18
- 1388: Recreating the Book of Mormon Plates with Trent Told
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Thanks for the show. I very much enjoyed it. I have an issue with the eight witnesses’ statement, and would love to know what you guys think of it. It is where they say, “as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands.” Now let’s grant they saw and handled leaves with engravings on them. Now, they wouldn’t be able to read them; only Joseph Smith could. So they would have no way of knowing whether the Book of Mormon really was a translation of whatever was engraved on the plates or not. If you give me a text in English and another in my native Portuguese, I’ll tell you whether one is a translation of the other; but give me a page with Chinese characters, and I won’t have a clue. Is it only me who thinks this is a weakness in the eight witnesses’ testimony? I haven’t seen this issue addressed anywhere, and would love to know what you think of it.
Ok, I’m replying to myself. Because I hadn’t seen the issue I raised above addressed anywhere, but now I have. After I listened to the programme on the eight witnesses I went and listened to the programme on the three, and there it was: A guy in the 1880s had already made my point, and lot more clearly than I did too: namely, none of the eight could read the plates, so they were in no position to state that “as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands;” the fact that they stated it anyway, what does that say about them? I wonder why you guys didn’t bring this issue back up again in the eight-witnesses programme…
Mike, by faith I declare that you drank from a blue cup. I see that sacred event with eyes of faith as though I see a blue cup through a mountain.