Welcome and Guest Introductions

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast, and I dare even say a special edition of Mormon Stories podcast. It is Sunday, August 29, 2021, and as you can visibly see, for those joining us visually on either YouTube or Facebook, I am joined by my dear friend and colleague, Kyle Ashworth. Hey, Kyle, how's it going?

Kyle Ashworth [00:00:23] It's well. Thanks, John.

John Dehlin [00:00:25] It's good. Good to have you here.

Kyle Ashworth [00:00:26] It is. It's good to have you here because we are broadcasting on both platforms, both the latter Gay Stories Podcast and Mormon Stories, which is unique and exciting.

John Dehlin [00:00:34] Amazing. Yeah, we're making history. So we are super excited today. It has been a busy week in Mormon land because last week Mormon Apostle Jeffrey R. Holland gave a very controversial talk to BYU faculty and staff. And we've covered that already on Mormon Stories Podcast. We had my dear friend Kyle here on, along with Gerardo, talking about their reactions as members of the LGBTQ kind of Mormon community to that talk. We also had John Larsen come on. Who shared his feelings and thoughts about it. But just to give you guys a quick overview, for those who have no idea what I'm talking about, many of you join us as having never been Mormon. Last week, one of the top ranking Mormon apostles gave a talk at BYU where he basically said several things. He tried to express some empathy for the LGBTQ Mormon experience. But then he went on to basically, in my interpretation, call out BYU administration staff and faculty expressing concern about the level of support that is being shown to the LGBTQ community and to criticisms made by BYU students, staff and faculty to the LDS Church and its leadership for the church's position opposing same sex marriage and other types of policies. He actually invoked some war like rhetoric, talking about picking up your muskets, talking about friendly fire in a way that, especially given the larger political environment here in the United States, was distressing to many people. And then another thing that Elder Holland did in his talk was he called out a former Brigham Young University valedictorian named Matt Easton. He actually called out Matt Easton, who two years ago in his graduation speech as valedictorian of byu, called him out for only coming out as a faithful gay Latter Day Saint in his valedictorian speech at byu, when he had vetted that talk with BYU and with the church. But Elder Holland expressed really concerns not only about Matt having done that, but also about the potential slippery slope of what might happen if things like that are allowed at BYU commencement addresses. And many of us were just aghast and offended that a man in his level of power. Someone who's viewed as a special witness of Christ, as a prophecier and revelator, would not only invoke war rhetoric, talking about muskets and friendly fire as a witness of Christ, but also in a strong position of power, but also someone at that level of power and influence would call out, not by name, but everyone knew who he was talking about, would call out a member of his church for something that was approved by byu. And that person, again, was Matt Easton. And so what we wanted to do is we reached out to Matt, who is at UC Berkeley. He's getting a PhD in political science at UC Berkeley. And we reached out to some donors and said, hey, guys, if any of you will support Matt, we'd love to fly him here to Salt Lake City to our studio on holiday over the weekend and interview him to hear his story, to talk about the speech he gave a couple of years ago, what the response was to that, to talk about his time at BYU Mormon, but also to talk about his thoughts and feelings about Elder Holland's talk last week, and just to talk about kind of where we are now at byu, in the church, et cetera. So we flew Matt Easton out. So, Matt Easton, welcome to Mormon Stories podcast.

Matt Easton [00:04:08] Thank you so much. I am so excited to be here and obviously it's great that I got to come see you, but I'm also grateful that I got to come visit my family and get a much needed hug from my mom, so. So thank you for that and to everyone who donated to get me here. It really means a lot.

John Dehlin [00:04:23] Yeah, yeah. Well, we're just so thrilled and so many people just want to hear from you.

Kyle Ashworth [00:04:29] I think that's the interesting part. As we were kind of show prepping and discussing exactly how we approach this topic, I kept thinking maybe we should have renamed the episode Vindication for a Valedictorian. And then the more I thought of it, that's really not the Matt Easton that I know. It isn't that Matt's out here looking for vindication from an ap, but this is an episode to allow Matt an opportunity to share his experience and share his story and how two years ago, a approved, under the umbrella of graduation, BYU administration approved a message that was not only affirming, but special and welcoming to that audience. And then to have that, ironically, Elder Holland says, commandeered. So in essence, Elder Holland commandeers Matt Easton's experience by using essentially the valedictorian as a bludgeon against, I think is probably the administration at byu. So instead of vindication for Matt. I think this is validation of a queer person's experience and your experience at BYU and your experience post BYU and where that's taken you. And so for the Latter Gay Stories audience, I'm sure where we're primarily a LGBTQ audience, I think that is the message that that audience likely would like to hear as well, is where is Matt going? And from where you came, how has that benefited and influenced your experience on where you see Matt a few years from today or even tomorrow? And so, again, we're excited to hear your story as well, and we want to lay out the red carpet. So for those of you who are on the Latter Gay Stories platform, we invite you to send in your comments. We do have our interactive system going for both our YouTube and our Facebook channels. So if you send your questions in, we're going to get them. You're live. And so we hope that Matt will answer those as candidly and nicely as possible.

Matt Easton [00:06:32] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:06:34] Yeah. And, Kyle, I just want to. I just. Would you mind just taking a second? We just. We just had Kyle Ashworth on Mormon Stories a few weeks ago. It's. It's one of the most effective, heartfelt and important interviews I think I've ever done. But for those who just don't know who you are, Kyle, would you mind just introducing yourself and talking just really quickly about Latter Gay Stories? Just because I think it's so important.

Matt Easton [00:06:58] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [00:06:58] The Latter Gay Stories podcast was originally born right here with the Open Stories Foundation. In 2012, it was branded under the Gay Mormon Stories Podcast name. And thanks to John and your work with the queer community, especially in your educational studies and your research studies, benefiting the LGBTQ community from that spawned the Gay Mormon Stories Podcast. Over the years, that podcast featured a variety of different stories that were a lifeline to me as a closeted, gay, active latter day saint in a mixed orientation marriage. In 2017, I approached John and the Open Stories foundation and said, either you do something with that podcast or I'm going to compete against you. And John, in his infinite wisdom, said, take it run. And so in 2018, I rebranded the Gay Mormon Stories Podcast into the Latter Gay Stories Podcast and took it under my own umbrella and allowed the podcast to go in a direction that was more queer driven. Highlighting the stories of the LGBTQ community without agenda. Not that I believe that there was an agenda before, but just allowing the LGBTQ person to share their story exactly where they were at today. And because of that, we've been able to create resources that have ministered in a very Mormon way to to the LGBTQ community here within the Intermountain west, but also beyond. And our listenership has grown exponentially as we share a message not only through the lens of Mormonism, but a lens that also is familiar with the Mormon Stories Podcast audience. A lens that is familiar with anyone within a religious society. And that really has been the mission. And thanks to generous sponsors and donors, they've allowed us to continue to spread and expand our reach to help us build bigger and stronger bridges between the LDS and LGBTQ community. Community.

John Dehlin [00:08:46] Yeah, just just for those who don't know, like how many hours and or episodes are you up to now on Latter Gay Stories?

Kyle Ashworth [00:08:53] We We're at 150 episodes. Every episode is is we have a video and audio version of the episode. We also feature written stories. We have a written coming out story that happens every Sunday, every Tuesday. We have In My Own Words. We also have parents and allies who share their written stories and video stories as well. And then we have a very active and vibrant Facebook group with about nine or 10,000 people who participate on the Facebook side, a YouTube channel, Instagram and sometimes we're TikTok friend, I shouldn't say friendly. TikTok's been fun. TikTok's been a great opportunity. And one of the hallmarks at the Latter Gay Stories podcast is our on the Record project which highlights the Church LDS Church's history in messaging and treatment of the LGBTQ community from 1830 all the way to the present. And that is a downloadable resource that has been it's a way to use Mormonism within Mormonism and essentially putting the church leaders on the record for what they've spoken of regarding this topic.

John Dehlin [00:09:54] And for me we're going to we plan to do an episode on on the Record, but for me it's a PDF that's as important as the CES letter. Maybe it's not quite as well known yet, but when you it's as well done and as important I think as the CES letter in terms of understanding Mormonism and its there is no spin

Kyle Ashworth [00:10:11] to the on the Record. It is just what our church leaders have said on the record concerning this topic. And as you for many people who say the church will never change, the church isn't changing fast enough. On the Record really is a detailed chronology of where the church has been, where they're at today, and potentially where they're going, essentially based on a chronological look of how they've treated this topic. So it isn't spin it isn't a hit piece. It is just what has been spoken on the record, mixed in with some leaked videos and some audio and some things that the church leaders probably didn't want you, the general public to know that also is on the record.

John Dehlin [00:10:47] Love it. Well, Kyle, thank you so much for coming.

Matt Easton [00:10:49] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:10:49] On a Sunday. I know you had a lot of stuff going on.

Kyle Ashworth [00:10:52] I know my second Saturdays have become quite busy lately, so happy to be here.

John Dehlin [00:10:56] All right, and. And last but not least, I really want to give a shout out to Kara Burrell. Kara, thanks for joining us.

Speaker D [00:11:04] So excited.

John Dehlin [00:11:05] It's Sunday and you. You had a busy weekend already.

Speaker D [00:11:08] Yeah, I just got back from Jesse. Amazing event up in Park City, especially for Truth for Women that I spoke at along with a lot of other amazing women and probably had 85 attendees. So I just spent an amazing weekend, drove down from Park City, pretty much patted my kids on the head, said, hi, remember me? I'm your mom, and then came over here.

John Dehlin [00:11:27] So thanks for coming.

Speaker D [00:11:28] Yeah, I'm excited for this one, though.

Matt's Early Life in the Church

John Dehlin [00:11:31] All right, well, let's go ahead and dig in. Matt, what. What Colin, I thought would make sense first was just to do a typical Mormon story, because every story counts. And I think your story is super cool. I don't know if you know this, but I graduated summa cum laude from BYU in political science.

Matt Easton [00:11:48] No, I did not know that.

John Dehlin [00:11:50] Yeah, I. I wasn't valedictorian, but I mean, I was close. Right. I did Washington seminar, and so I've got that background. But I'm dying. I'm dying to hear your story. So if it's okay, before we jump into all the Holland stuff, I just want to kind of do a classic Mormon story. Is that all right if we start?

Matt Easton [00:12:07] That would be awesome. I would love to.

John Dehlin [00:12:08] All right. So, Matt, where does your Mormon story begin?

Matt Easton [00:12:11] Where does my Mormon story begin? Well, I am born and raised here in Salt Lake City, Utah, Cottonwood Heights, for those who are familiar to a very religious and devout LDS family. Both my mother and my father come from, I don't know, seven or eight generations of members of the LDS Church. My direct descendants were converted by Brigham Young, came across the plains. So it's really a part of my blood and a part of my community and my culture, and it has been my entire life. I'm the third of four children, boy, girl, boy girl. I'm number three. And yeah, I was raised what I feel like was probably a pretty typical Mormon experience, going to church every week, family home, evening, reading scriptures but from a very early age, I knew that I was a little bit different. For example, I loved playing with Barbies. My older sister and I would play with Barbies. We'd paint our nails with washable markers. Just sort of stuff that was typically considered, you know, girly. And for the beginning of my life, I think my parents were pretty accepting about that. You know, they just let me and my sister go off and kind of do our thing. But I do remember a point in my life, I think I was eight years old, it was right around when I got baptized, where I suddenly got a lot of signals that that was no longer okay. Where I had to start washing off the nail polish. I, you know, couldn't get Barbies anymore. I remember one Christmas, I came upstairs to open my presents, and instead of the, you know, toys that I wanted, I got a bunch of sports equipment, you know, a set of golf clubs and a tennis racket and a basketball and football and. And I was like, mom and Dad, I hate sports. I don't want any of this. But it. But it sort of signaled to me that it was time for me to put away those things that I liked that. That weren't appropriate and really built some shame inside of me where I knew, even though my parents didn't tell me directly, I got this message that there were parts of me that weren't okay and that I needed to hide. So. So that's what I did. I think from what I understand, a lot of queer people have a similar experience to me. And I think I realized I was gay. Gosh, when I was a child, I mean, I had a crush on the red Power Ranger. I loved Eric from the Little Mermaid.

John Dehlin [00:14:34] Why the red one?

Matt Easton [00:14:35] Why the red one? I don't know. He's just.

Speaker D [00:14:37] That's such a straight question from a man to ask. I get you.

Matt Easton [00:14:40] Thank you.

Speaker D [00:14:41] Why the red one? John, please. Yes, continue, Matt.

Matt Easton [00:14:49] Where was I?

John Dehlin [00:14:49] Is it obviously the red one? Kyle, am I missing something?

Kyle Ashworth [00:14:52] I never got into the Power. My brothers were into Power Rangers.

Matt Easton [00:14:55] But when you talk about Ariel.

Kyle Ashworth [00:14:57] Yeah. And Eric and King Triton, that was my jam. Like, that is my era.

Speaker D [00:15:02] Yeah.

Matt Easton [00:15:03] I'm 26 years old. I was born in 1995. Okay.

Speaker D [00:15:08] Anyway.

John Dehlin [00:15:09] Red Power Ranger.

Matt Easton [00:15:10] Red Power Ranger. Yes. And so I think I knew I was gay as early as I can remember, ever since I had a crush on Prince Eric. Right. And I remember growing up, my favorite color was rainbow. And one day, my older brother, he told me, matt, you know, rainbow. You can't like rainbow. That's gay. And I'm like, what is gay? And so I remember asking my parents, Andy said that, you know, rainbows are gay. What does that mean? And my parents, you know, I don't blame them. I don't think they really knew how to handle that situation, but they just sort of said, oh, gay just means. It just describes people who don't support the church, you know, and it's something that we just kind of avoid. And so I didn't really understand that gay meant boys like boys, girls like girls, but I understood that gay was not okay.

John Dehlin [00:16:01] But can I cash you a quick question?

Matt Easton [00:16:03] Yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [00:16:03] So in terms of kind of the Mormon upbringing, like scripture study, family, home, evening gospel principles taught in the home, to what extent was your kind of family, the context of your Mormon upbringing really orthodox versus versus not?

Matt Easton [00:16:20] I would say we're like pretty traditional. You know, when I've talked with some of my friends or people I met at byu, we're not as orthodox as other families. Like we were allowed to watch movies on Sundays, but we couldn't go shopping, you know, and. And we went to church every week pretty regularly, you know, wore modest clothing. So yeah, we never had any. Anything with the word of wisdom, no secret coffee in the house or anything. So yeah, like I would say fairly orthodox, pretty traditional.

John Dehlin [00:16:47] And your parents beliefs were looked like what their beliefs?

Matt Easton [00:16:50] Yeah, yeah, they growing up, I think that they, they really believe in the church. They still do. And, and they did. All growing up taught all of my siblings and I to. To make it one of our biggest priorities, if not the biggest.

John Dehlin [00:17:05] So Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father in prayer and the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith, that was all. That was all heavily sort of like focused on in your family?

Matt Easton [00:17:14] Absolutely. Okay. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:17:16] Okay. So then you find out that, that, you know, you can't like rainbows because that's gay. And that being gay means you don't support the church.

Kyle Ashworth [00:17:24] And I think this slides into a familiar territory for so many LDS families with LGBTQ kids because typically a topic like this becomes so taboo that we don't talk about it.

Matt Easton [00:17:34] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [00:17:35] And there, there is no structure in that home. So I'm curious as to how much support or foundation existed in your family structure to allow a discussion about a real discussion, not just Matt run away from the rainbow, but a real discussion about sexuality and especially a sexuality that wasn't heterosexual.

Matt Easton [00:17:57] Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head. I mean, there really hasn't been that kind of structure. Definitely not growing up sort of a don't ask, don't tell policy. You know where. I think that. Because the answers aren't exactly straightforward. That's kind of scary. At least that's how I interpret it with my. With my parents and my siblings and. Yeah, so it's something we just didn't talk about, you know, and in retrospect, after I've come out, you know, I've received a lot of feedback from my siblings, my family, my cousins, that they're like, yeah, Matt, we knew you were gay, like, since. You know, since you were playing with Barbies. But nobody ever, ever mentioned or talked to me about it. And looking back, I think maybe it's cause they were scared that if they mentioned it, that would, like, encourage me give you ideas. Right, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:18:39] As if it's like something that happens when you learn. If you learn the wrong things that makes you gay. When your parents bought, like, golf clubs or, like, sporting equipment.

Matt Easton [00:18:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:49] Was that just what they did with everyone, or did you sense that they might. That might have been done out of fear and concern and a desire to help shape what might become your sexuality? Do you. Do you even know if that was even part of that?

Matt Easton [00:19:02] Yeah, I. I mean, I don't know for sure. I haven't asked them directly. But I do know that it was a different treatment than any of my other siblings, that there was a very clear line that they had made where the year previous it was okay, and then suddenly it wasn't okay. And none of my siblings, at least as far as I'm aware, had that same experience.

John Dehlin [00:19:20] Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So.

Growing Up Gay and LDS

Matt Easton [00:19:23] So. So I knew this gay thing means that you like rainbows. And so I'm kind of like, well, I like rainbows. Am I gay? But I love the church, so I can't be gay. And it wasn't till sixth grade that I learned what gay was. So I was, what, 11, 12 years old. And it's because my class had just gotten laptops in elementary school. And one day, this girl and I in our class were. We used the laptops to Google image search Channing Tatum. I think she's. The man had just come out, so there are all these shirtless pictures of him. And I remember looking at those, and I was like, oh, my gosh, I really like that. I like looking at this. What does this mean? And the girl next to me was like, oh, don't look at those matter. That means you're gay. And she explained to me what gay meant. You know, it means that. That boys like to kiss other boys, and Same thing with girls. And I remember the moment she told me that I felt just a pit in my stomach. I was like, oh my gosh, this is me. Like I think that's what I'm experiencing. And now I know that clearly there's something evil and wrong about me. And from that moment forward, I felt like I was forever in debt, that there's this big hole inside of me because I was gay and that I had to do everything I could to fill it, but that no matter what I did, I was never going to be able to fill it. And so at that point when I was 12, that's when I started going to the temple, I got the priesthood and I became hyper religious, which again, I think is a pretty common experience, but not in a way that looking back, that was uplifting, but a way that was overwhelming. You know, where I felt like I had to wake up at 5:30 in the morning and read my scriptures for an hour and if I didn't I would feel so guilty the entire day and I would, you know, do every single calling that I would ask or be asked to do and ask for more callings. And I developed a pretty severe case of religious OCD or scrupulosity. Scrupulosity, exactly where I had these intrusive thoughts constantly that were dictating how I had to live my life, but in a way that I was constantly on edge, constantly anxious. And it was hard too because the scrupulosity was reinforced by my community. So for example, something that happened to me all growing up is I would feel like I'd get these promptings from the Spirit, like if I'm driving down the street, if I drive past this light, I'm going to get in a car accident and I will die. And so I had to take a 45 minute detour, you know, instead of just doing the 15 minute ride. And I remember one time I was on a date, a double date in high school with fellow LDS kids and I felt that intrusive thought come back in and I told them and they were like, yes, absolutely, follow it. That's the spirit, let's do this. And and so I got these reinforcing messages that it was, it was good for me to do that. And I didn't realize how destructive that was and how overwhelming it was for me as just like a, you know, 15, 16 year old kid.

Erosion of Identity and Self-Worth

Kyle Ashworth [00:22:20] Let's talk about that destruction. What was it that started to destroy or erode who and what Matt was?

Matt Easton [00:22:28] You know, it would be things like if I Watched a movie. Like, I remember when Mamma Mia. Came out and there's lots of shirtless men in there. And I would see a shirtless man, and I would feel aroused, and I would feel so guilty that I would have to leave the room, say a prayer like 10 times, because I felt like just because I had those feelings, I had sinned. And that I was putting not only my own, like, celestial well being, but my family's and so much pressure. And so it would take hours out of my day. You know, I wouldn't be able to see my friends on time because I was busy repenting over and over and over for things that I couldn't control. And so in that way, I felt like my actions were starting to be shaped by these compulsions instead of shaped by what I truly wanted or who I actually was.

Kyle Ashworth [00:23:17] We often talk about this being such a loss of bandwidth. We invest so much energy into shifting and changing who and what we are. Think of where we could be if we could.

Matt Easton [00:23:29] Kind of.

John Dehlin [00:23:30] Running away from yourself, right?

Kyle Ashworth [00:23:31] Exactly. If we hadn't invested all of that energy and strength into becoming something that we're not. We shortchange ourselves into becoming something that we were created to be. And I think this is just a great example for those who don't understand the queer experience. This is a great. Just a really laser pinpoint sight into the experience of an. Of someone who is LGBTQ to see that this is what we deal with. These are the experiences that we have. The. Just the intense ability to please other people and the intense ability to become what we think God wants for us, completely masking that. The reality of who and what we

John Dehlin [00:24:11] are and what I. And. Sorry, what I loved about how you described it is, you know, as someone who's studied scrupulosity as part of my. My PhD, there is a difference between sincere religiosity, because it provides you with fulfillment and meaning and purpose, and scrupulosity, that is a compulsion, compulsive behavior that's developed to help neutralize a distress stimuli. And the latter is not good. You think hyper religiosity, well, that's got to be good because you're being extra. You're going to the temple a lot, you're reading scriptures a lot, you're praying a lot. No, that's a disorder. So sincere, edifying spirituality that's, you know, making you feel good. Amazing. What you're talking about is literally a diagnosis in the. In the dsm. It's a disorder that leads to depression, severe depression and anxiety I don't want to say that's your experience, but no,

Matt Easton [00:25:08] it absolutely was constantly anxious and worried. It was awful. And I think combined with that, I really quickly, you know, started noticing how people were interpreting me. And I felt like I constantly had to present myself in a way that made them feel comfortable and that proved to them that I wasn't gay.

John Dehlin [00:25:29] And like, changing your speech pattern or

Matt Easton [00:25:31] changing my speech patterns or not vocalizing what kind of music I like because it might seem too queer or, you know, I would go out of my way to be super flirty with women and go on tons of dates. So people would say, oh, like, Matt's just kinda, you know, he's just like fruity or he's really nice, but he's straight, you know. And it got to the point where my active LDs, they would defend me against people who would, you know, make jokes about me being gay at school. And that just added to it where I thought, you know, oh my gosh, my friends have just got into this sort of verbal argument in class defending me as straight, and I can't let them down now. You know, like, imagine how betrayed my friends are gonna feel if they find out that I'm actually gay. And so I felt like I was constantly people pleasing and doing everything to make everyone else happy and comfortable, but at the expense of me feeling safe and comfortable. Yeah, and that's hard.

John Dehlin [00:26:26] Super hard.

Matt Easton [00:26:28] Yeah. So I kind of dealt with that all. Growing up in high school, continued to be extremely religious. I was on seminary council here in Utah, did tons of different things with the church. I would go out with the missionaries as a 16 year old. And my senior year of high school is when the mission age changed. So it's when suddenly I was the first group where 18 year olds could suddenly go out on missions. So I'm sitting in high school and my friends are starting to get their mission calls and I'm realizing, oh my gosh, in like six months I could be on my mission. I maybe should start working out this, you know, big, deep, dark sin that I have.

John Dehlin [00:27:08] So you thought of it as a sin?

Matt Easton [00:27:09] I thought absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:27:10] Just to have the feelings, just to

Matt Easton [00:27:12] have the feelings to have crushes on boys, to have, you know, to be aroused by Channing Tatum.

John Dehlin [00:27:18] So, so I want you to go right where you're going. But I want to ask before that, like, did you try and you know, people are going to wonder, did you ever have any experimentation with, with, with boys or men as a high schooler and, or did you try and date Women, or did you, like many, just stay away from dating altogether and just have lots of friends? I know in Utah, there's this weird culture of, like, you never date, you never get serious before your mission. So that's what I'm guessing you're going to say, but I'm wondering.

Matt Easton [00:27:44] Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So, no, I did not do any experimentation in high school or middle school or anything. I was never, like, approached or coerced or harassed or, well, like, sexually harassed or anything. Nothing like that ever happened to me. I did date a lot of girls, but again, just casually. I never had a girlfriend. Really?

John Dehlin [00:28:06] What high school was it?

Matt Easton [00:28:07] Brighton High School. Yeah, the Bengals. But, you know, I would kiss a lot of girls, you know, had fun. We would make out or stuff like that. And. And I did that because, I mean, sure, it was fun, but also I felt like I had to do this to create this image of straight Matt.

John Dehlin [00:28:23] Was that distressing or was that just fine, neutral?

Matt Easton [00:28:26] No, it was tough. It was super distressing. Yeah. Why? Well, because, like, I can guess. I just know for sure, because I guess I just felt like I always had something to prove and I always, constantly had to show people that. That I'm not something that I am. Yeah. So the mission, age change comes around, and I think, well, gosh, I believe in this church with my whole heart. I want to do everything I can to support it. Of course I want to go on a mission. Maybe it's time that I talk to my bishop. So I went to my bishop when I was 17 years old, a senior in high school. And this was the first time I ever came out to somebody ever, ever. I had never told a single soul. I was even too scared to write it in my journal. I had, like, secret codes where I would say, you know, the thing or something where I could record it. But I didn't want anyone to even accidentally find my journal and see that I admitted I was gay. So I show up to my bishop's office and I tell him, bishop, I think that I might struggle with same sex attraction.

John Dehlin [00:29:30] Now, where did you learn that term?

Matt Easton [00:29:32] Where did I learn. Just picked it up at devotionals or, you know, I remember seminary teacher, he kept, like, a cabinet file with talks about every issue, and one of the talks was about same sex attraction. So one time I opened the drawer to look to see if there are any of them, but I was too scared to grab it in case anyone saw. But. But I knew that that was, you know, the term that we're supposed to use.

John Dehlin [00:29:56] Why are you Smiling while you're smiling, Kyle.

Kyle Ashworth [00:29:58] I smile because I also, I was a seminary president, so I was the one who ordered those. And I too was so worri worried about what other people would think seeing that I was interested or had some reason to have that pamphlet. And so I took one, a letter to a friend and it's still in my mission scriptures today. But I ordered it through the distribution center catalog and then slipped it in my mission scriptures, my scriptures in seminary, and then moved into my mission scriptures. But I get it, I know what that feeling is like knowing that you are clinging to every resource available out there. And unfortunately even, I mean we're 10 years apart in age, the only available resources out there to us. And so much so even today for people in our situation was the negative side of it. That there are the options are prayerful church service, extra callings, mixed orientation marriages, calloused knees, bloody knuckles. If you are not completely enveloped in doing the right things and your, your sexuality is not changing, it's because you're not trying hard enough. And those are the messages that you and I grew up with and still the messages that the well intended, intended church leaders today, stake presidents, bishops, auxiliary leaders, are still teaching their youth today as they come as 17 year old Matt did in a bishop's office and says, can you help me? I don't know how to fix this. And they say how are you doing in the temple? How are you doing with church service? And I don't want to, I really am interested in what your bishop said to you. But in terms of commonality, yes, we, we cling to every one of those messages. Sometimes they say church members will look at the queer community and say, well, you just don't understand our doctrine well enough. And I can assure you we probably know it better than most in terms of this topic.

John Dehlin [00:31:52] Yeah, for sure.

Matt Easton [00:31:52] Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. So I found myself in my bishop's office and he looks at me and he says, well Matt, have you ever kissed a boy before? And I said oh my gosh, no, I've never even held their hands. I've never like touched them anyway. Like, no, absolutely not. And he said okay, good. He said, well, have you ever kissed a girl? I said yeah, I've kissed a couple girls. And he said oh, it's simple then. Just, just don't kiss boys and keep kissing girls. You don't. And so that's the first problem solved, right?

Speaker D [00:32:27] Collect your Nobel Prize, you solved it.

Matt Easton [00:32:30] So that was my first feedback I ever got. And kind of the message I received was like, okay, I guess I'm just supposed to not talk about this. I'm just supposed to keep pushing through and keep hiding it. And so, again, I just felt like I was getting this validation that hiding myself and punishing myself and pushing myself into a mold was okay and it was the right thing to do and it's what God wanted me to do.

John Dehlin [00:32:56] And it would lead to what result? Maybe.

Matt Easton [00:32:58] Yeah, well, I guess I just hoped it would lead to, you know, exaltation, celestial kingdom or at least becoming an angel or something, you know, and if

Kyle Ashworth [00:33:06] nothing else, it allowed the spotlight to leave you and just allowed you to move on. That idea that you are molding yourself into something that you're not is a way to please everyone else at the sacrifice of who you are.

Serving a Mission While Gay

John Dehlin [00:33:24] And what I think I was, I was wondering is like, like, I think, Kyle, you shared in your story, there's this very common perception amongst LGBTQ Mormons that if you're faithful enough, if you're righteous enough, if you go on your mission, that Heavenly Father maybe will take away your feelings of, quote, same sex attraction and de gay ify you so that when you return from your faithful mission, you'll be attracted to women and then you'll be able to follow on the Mormon train where the Mormon train wants to take you. Was that your hope or. I don't want to. I don't want to inject that in your story.

Matt Easton [00:33:54] No, for sure, but. But absolutely it was. And so, yeah, if I get feedback from a church leader, I'm going to follow it to a T. Yeah, if that's what my bishop told me. Okay, I'm going to keep on kissing girls. Now we're going to kiss a boy. I'm going to do exactly what I'm supposed to. And so that's what I did. So a couple months later, I got my mission call. I was still in high school to Sydney, Australia. Korean SPEAKING Elder so I stayed in just a couple areas to work with some of the Korean people there. So I left like a month after I graduated high school and had. Overall, I have some pretty positive feelings about my mission. Believe it or not, my family and I actually lived in Sydney when I was a child. And so a lot of the members there knew my mom and dad and kind of watched out for me. So in some ways, I was spoiled, I think, in the sense that I did feel really well taken care of. And I was just, as you'd probably expect from someone who struggles with religious scrupulosity, extremely obedient wake up exactly at 6:30 exercise exactly 30 minutes. If I got a thought that I needed to talk to somebody, even if they were a big scary businessman, like, gosh darn, I'm gonna go do it. I'm gonna go talk to them. And I did everything that I could because just like you said, John, in the back of my head I was thinking, if I can pull this off, if I can be the perfect missionary, then maybe God could help me out. Maybe I can become straight or maybe I can just like be strong enough to push through and to push past this. And it did not work out that way. In fact, while I was on my mission, I only felt my sexual attractions continue to grow and develop. Sydney, Australia. One of the great things in retrospect about that place is there's lots of very handsome men there. You know, lots of surfers and attractive men from all over the world. And so I would be walking on the streets and sort of the same thing as when I was a teenager, if I saw a man and I thought that he looked handsome, I would beat myself up the rest of the week. I thought, oh my gosh, I've lost the spirit. And now I've lost the chance to convert somebody who really needs it. I am the worst person on earth. I'm, I'm no good. I better get to Sunday and take that sacrament because that's the only way I'm going to get clean. And this feeling of always being dirty, no matter how hard I tried, really, really got to me as I imagined. Probably hard for anyone not to.

John Dehlin [00:36:25] And so explain if you, if this is part of your experience, what the Mormon teachings are about thoughts and how to what extent are thoughts considered sinful and then how that would affect you when a thought comes into your brain. And maybe that wasn't part of your experience, but I know, I know the church has some pretty strong teachings about thoughts.

Matt Easton [00:36:48] Yes, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:36:49] Because again, you're not. It's not like you're, you know, acting, seeking out sex workers as a missionary. It's not like you're hitting on your companions. This is all going on inside your mind.

Kyle Ashworth [00:36:59] Or maybe you were.

Matt Easton [00:37:00] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:37:00] Yeah, maybe.

Matt Easton [00:37:01] No, I definitely was not. No. Yeah. I was raised to believe that even a thought is a sin, to even think something is a sin. And so sort of this idea that I need to keep not just my actions but my mind clean because if my mind is having these inappropriate thoughts, then I might as well be committing that sin. So, yeah, so I felt accountable for my thoughts. I felt like I was supposed to be able to control them. And I tried everything. I memorized so many scriptures where I would just try to recite scriptures over and over and over again in my head, or I would sing songs to myself, church hymns. And. And unfortunately, I found that the more that I did that, the more that these thoughts would come. Like, the thoughts I didn't want. Where it was almost like, you know, I hear the analogy. If you tell someone to not think about a carrot, all they're going to do is think about a carrot. And I think that's maybe in some ways what I was doing to myself, which just caused this, like, torrent of just constantly being anxious and feeling unworthy, you know, while I'm thinking about the church. 247 on my mission. So it got to a point about maybe a year, year and a half into my mission, where I really slipped into some deep depression and some deep anxiety where to the point that I was struggling to smile, which I'm a smile a lot. Yeah, I'm a pretty smiley person. I like both my mom and I. I mean, and my little sister. Like, I smile when I take an exam. Like, it's my resting face. So. So the fact that I was having a hard time, I think that really speaks that I was in a dark place. And so I had a. Like an interview with my mission president's wife. She sort of does like, casual interviews when your companion's doing a mission president interview. And. And I didn't tell her I was gay, but I said, sister Howes, I'm. I'm struggling. I think I might be depressed. And so she was awesome. She said, we've got a psychologist, missionary who's in New Zealand that you can call for a transfer. So she put me in touch with him. And so for six weeks, I. Once a week, I got on the phone for an hour and had a therapy session, which was the first time I'd ever done therapy. And this therapist, who I believe, if I remember correctly, he was a licensed therapist who was serving a mission for the church, he's the second person that I ever told that I was gay. And I told him this in tears because, you know, I thought, this man doesn't know who I am. He's in another country. I feel safe telling him my secret. And he was the first person, I think, that gave me some honest feedback where he said, you know, Elder Easton, this gay thing is not going to go away. He's like, when you get home from your mission, unless there's some mighty miracle, like You're. You're going to keep having these feelings, and I think the first step for you is you got to kind of accept that. And as a young missionary who believed wholeheartedly in the power of Jesus Christ, I could not accept that. I thought, okay, I know you're a therapist, but you are using some secular logic here, and I'm not going to buy into it. So I talked to him for six weeks for full transfer. And, you know, he gave me some tools about mindfulness to kind of calm my anxiety, and it helped a little bit, but I really did not believe him that I would be stuck being gay forever.

Kyle Ashworth [00:40:22] So was your therapist, was he part of mission medical, like LDS Family Services side? And do you think he was lds?

Matt Easton [00:40:30] Yes, he was lds. He was a missionary. So I called him Elder. I got you.

Kyle Ashworth [00:40:33] Sorry if I missed that part.

Matt Easton [00:40:34] Yeah, no worries. Yeah. So he was called on a mission to be a missionary therapist, basically for. For the Pacific area. So, yes, that kind of got me towards the end of my mission where I'm starting to think about possibly reconciling some of this dissonance or thinking about it, but still not quite ready. And as I got towards the end of my mission, my mission president was also about to head home from his mission. He left, I think, a month and a half, maybe two months before I did. And so as he's getting ready to leave, I'm starting to think about what I'm gonna do when I leave my mission. And I'm starting to panic because I think, okay, I'm still at this point where I've been righteous, but I'm still getting these gay feelings. What am I gonna do when I go home and go to byu? How am I gonna date a woman? How am I gonna be able to get married? How am I gonna be able to have kids? I mean, these thoughts were constantly stressing me out. And so as my mission president left the mission, we had a chance to do one final interview with him. So I get into my interview and I finally come clean. I said, elder or President Howes, I think that I have same sex attraction and I am so scared to go home. Please, as my leader, I know you're leaving, tell me what to do. And the first thing he did was he assured me he was like, Elder Easton, I had no idea you were gay. You never gave off any gay vibes. He didn't say vibe, but which, you know, reaffirmed to me, okay, it's good that I'm trying to mask this and hide this and at least it's working somewhat. So then the next thing is he said, well, you know what? Let's have the spirit do the talking and let me give you a blessing. So he put his hands on my head and he blessed that from that moment forward, every homosexual feeling I had would be replaced with a heterosexual one. He blessed me that I would find a wife who I would be sexually attracted to, that I would marry and have children with. He blessed me that I would become a bishop one day and that I would become a leader in Zion. And I remember, like, it hurts so much to think about this now, but that was probably the best day of my life. I was so happy because I felt like I was. I was cured. I felt like I got the miracle I wanted and that the power of the atonement of Jesus Christ was real. It was promised to me by my priesthood leader, and all I had to do was be faithful. So I left that meeting thinking, okay, problem solved, I've done it. I figured out the combination. I'm going to be good. So, finished out my mission, feeling super awesome. I come home two weeks later, I'm at BYU starting my first semester and become Elders Corn president. I start dating all the women that I can find in my ward, you know, doing all that I can. And my homosexual feelings were still there. And I was not getting heterosexual feelings. You know, I would kiss girls, have a good time, but I wouldn't feel any sort of special attraction. And pretty quickly that took me to a really dark place because I thought I've been promised this power through the atonement. And if it's not working, clearly that's my fault. Clearly I don't have enough faith. Clearly I am still sinning. Clearly my thoughts are still evil, because if I were just good, I could capitalize and bank on that promise. And so it just. I felt like I'd failed my faith and I felt shunned by Jesus Christ. But I didn't blame him. I blamed myself. And, yeah, it sucked. And I felt like I had no one to turn to, no one to

Navigating Life as a Gay BYU Student

John Dehlin [00:44:12] talk to, because you can't say, well, God, God blew it, or God's not doing his part. By definition, God and Jesus do their part.

Kyle Ashworth [00:44:20] And even under the guise of the blessing, it was because of your faith and your actions. Therefore, your faith wasn't strong enough. And clearly, whatever you were doing or not doing either, and this is familiar in Mormonism, these sins of omission or commission, what is it that you're not doing by choice? And what is it that you're not doing because you don't know that you're not doing them right. And this is just such a mind blowing and boggling experience for the LGBTQ person.

John Dehlin [00:44:46] You're saying that even if you're doing every, you know, even if you're not breaking any of the rules, there's always a million things you could be doing. So there's never a point where you can ever really feel like you are doing everything possible.

Kyle Ashworth [00:44:57] Yeah, there's this great Mormon message that. And it's kind of even a Maya Angelou message. We don't know what we don't know. And so therefore, we jump back into heavy scripture study to try to learn, or just a deep dive back into the words of the prophets to see what we missed in some other obscure lesson that we're not doing that we should be doing. Therefore, the blessings of the atonement, the blessings, the literal blessing that your mission president gave you can be effective, and that's where it just eats and erodes.

Matt Easton [00:45:26] Exactly, exactly. And I feel like it also encouraged me to just like, sacrifice more of myself, like in. In, like to support the church in the sense that, you know, I would give up hanging out with my friends like a normal college student, because I thought, nope, I've got to go out with the missionaries three times a week. And now I've got to, you know, I've got to pray about every single man in my elders quorum by name and make sure that I'm receiving revelation for them. And I've got to make sure that I've signed up for at least one religion class every semester, if not two, you know? Yeah. Constantly this feeling of never enough, never enough, never enough. So that's kind of where I was at. And I felt like I was probably the only person on BYU campus who was gay and who was dealing with this. I like, honestly, truly believe that because I thought, you know, other people who are gay, they have probably figured this out. They're not stupid enough to come to BYU like I was. But I went there in part because I was so afraid that if I went somewhere like University of Utah or another school that I would meet gay people and that maybe they would, like, coerce me or lead me down a dark path. So I chose BYU almost as like a safety net where I thought, this is the only place where I can be gay or where I'll be the only gay person and I won't be tempted or influenced negatively. Yeah. So which. Which now I'm like, oh, my gosh no, there's hundreds if not thousands of us there.

John Dehlin [00:46:53] Well, I mean there, there have been some recent surveys or studies indicating that upwards of potentially 20% of BYU campus identifies as either a sexual or gender minority in some way.

Kyle Ashworth [00:47:05] Encircle just did complet that study and they interviewed nearly 8,000 BYU students and 13.2% said their sexuality was not straight. So that they. So that was specific to Provo BYU Provo, which I think is a fascinating study. And when we dig further down into this conversation with what is happening at BYU today, if I were a church leader or an administrator at byu, I would absolutely take note of that study saying if we want to alienate a certain population, we need to realize that 13% of our population in a survey that wasn't church correlated. They were willing to answer that type of a question. Now how much? The reality of that is how much bigger a second study comes out and says nearly 23%. And then what about siblings and family members who attach to that? So we are talking about a large swath of Mormonism at that specific university. And one thing that Kara and I talked about just a little bit before this interview comes in is as, as a gay person, as a gay man going into byu, you had to have known that you were gay. What was it about BYU that you wanted to use? Was there something about BYU that you wanted to use to help fix you as well? Because I think that's a valid question for someone potentially looking at BYU as an option who is lgbtq.

Matt Easton [00:48:29] Yeah, absolutely. I again, I thought that, that BYU would be the only place that I could be safe, that I could ensure that I would be in an environment where I wouldn't be tempted or confused to leave the church or to accept my homosexuality. Experiment or experiment. Exactly. Because I'm like, yeah, clearly none of that's going on at byu. But that's what I thought. And so that's why I chose byu. And it's also a really great school. There's some really awesome things about BYU which, which we can, we can get into as we go.

John Dehlin [00:49:02] But I was just gonna say that the other thing is I talk about the bubble, just how, how within a real high demand religion culture, very, very well known things outside the bubble are just never discussed or known within the bubble. Yes. And the fact that you could be, you know, in a, in a university of 25, 30,000 people think you might be the only gay person there, when again, we know that at least 2500 to 3000 people all around, you were Experiencing something very similar. It just goes to show how. How strong the bubble is.

Matt Easton [00:49:40] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:49:41] Inside the church, inside Utah county, and inside byu.

Kyle Ashworth [00:49:44] Well, the flip side of that is also how strong the machine is at keeping those voices and those identities covered.

Matt Easton [00:49:51] Isolated.

Kyle Ashworth [00:49:52] Isolated. I like the word isolated. That there is a movement behind there to ensure that those 2500 stay as closeted and closed off as possible. I think that's reality.

John Dehlin [00:50:04] And this is gonna flow to why you came out later.

Matt Easton [00:50:06] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:50:07] So, you know, we're setting the groundwork.

Matt Easton [00:50:10] No, that's. That's where that leads right into what I want to share next. Yeah. So throughout my life, I think I never. I never really knew a gay person personally. You know, I think there was one boy who was out as gay at my high school, which I purposely avoided him because I didn't want to be associated for people to extrapolate that maybe I'm gay as well. And I think, you know, maybe I taught one lesson to a gay person on my mission, you know, But I didn't really know anyone personally until my second semester at byu. So still my freshman year, I'm going through this dark time, wondering where my place is with the atonement. And political science major. So I'm in my first international relations course, which is also count as a general education course. So there were all sorts of upperclassmen, lower classmen in this big class. And there was a boy that sat one row in front of me, just like a couple seats to the left, whose name was Harry Fisher. And I didn't know Harry super well. I think, you know, we did a couple, like, class exercises, and maybe I talked to him once or twice, and, you know, I might have asked him to clarify a comment or something. So I knew who he was, but I didn't know him very well. And I believe he was a senior at byu. And partway through the semester, when we're in this course, one day he just stopped showing up to class. And then a week later, my professor gets up, and in very vague terms, she says, we've lost a classmate. If any of you are ever struggling, please come and see me. And I thought, what? This is weird. And then I realized, oh, my gosh, this boy Harry is no longer here. And. And within a day or two, I saw the news articles where Harry Fisher had come out as gay during that semester. And I think because of some of that response, that he got some of the rhetoric in the community, obviously the turmoil that a lot of us experience and understand, he ended up taking his own Life. I just remember being a 20 year old freshman and the first gay person that I ever knew who took his own life and I thought I was looking at myself in a mirror and I thought, oh my gosh, if I ever come out, if I ever speak my truth, even just say that I'm gay, am I going to be led to that same outcome? It's just a really, really scary thought to have and really isolating and just, I mean it just messed with me, messed with my head. It freaked me out. And I think that that's a pretty common experience for people like me, for the queer community where constantly, you know, throughout, especially at byu, the only people that I saw while I was there who were like me were ones who were ending up dead, you know. And I don't know, I don't want that same outcome. But is it inevitable? Is the only place that the world and the church has to offer me is, is one where I'm not in it. I mean those are the kind of the messages that I felt like I was receiving and it was tough.

Mental Health Struggles in the BYU Environment

John Dehlin [00:53:14] Can you put, is there any way you can put straight people just have no idea. Like I mean there are straight people who have suicidal ideation and, or complete, successfully complete death by suicide. But, and we should obviously probably provide a bit of a trigger warning for those who might be sensitive to these sorts of things to, to practice self care to the extent that you need to as we talk about something very serious. But for, let's just say the average straight person, the average orthodox straight Mormon that has just no empathy or understanding for why being a student at BYU in orthodox Mormon faith would lead to those types of thoughts and, or behaviors. Can you help kind of describe the experience and, or the mindset that would put someone in a position to, to think in such dark.

Speaker D [00:54:04] And before you go there, just know the comments on YouTube. Everyone A loves your hair and everyone wants to know you are so loved right now by a thousand plus people watching. So answer John's question.

Matt Easton [00:54:15] Thank you and thanks for coming on my hair. I was worried about it. So thank you everyone.

Speaker D [00:54:18] That's the number one comment.

John Dehlin [00:54:19] You're getting Berkeley.

Matt Easton [00:54:21] That's what my parents say. Yeah. I got to fit in with the Bay Area.

John Dehlin [00:54:24] So.

Matt Easton [00:54:26] Yeah. So if, if I, if, if I understand what you're asking, you're saying what, what, what about coming out kind of puts people in a place where they might consider what about being gay at

John Dehlin [00:54:36] byu, being closeted gay at BYU and or then coming out could, could put someone in such a Place where they think that that might be the only option. Only or the best option for them.

Matt Easton [00:54:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:49] Just take some time to describe how and why that might happen. As a student.

Matt Easton [00:54:54] Absolutely. Well, for me, as a closeted student, I remember we're constantly getting this message that there is nothing more important than getting married in the temple and raising up a family to bring to the celestial kingdom. And every time I hear that message, I'm feeling my one most important duty I'm supposed to complete in this life. I don't think I'm gonna be able to do that. So what's the point? You know, I might as well just kind of call it quits right now and get out of this, because I can't take this pressure when I know that I can't live up to this and that if I try to, I'm not going to be very happy. I'm not going to have a very fulfilling life. So for me, at least, that's kind of what put me in that place. And I know from the experience, you know, my experience since coming out in the community, as well as, you know, other people who are at byu, the people don't always react positively. In fact, more often than not, they take a simple declaration of identity as like, a politicized statement to debate or to, like, argue or try to push back on. So, I mean, I don't. I can't speak to what Harry experienced, for example, but I can imagine that there are some people who are maybe unhappy or who pushed back or who said, you know, you are. You are denying God right now. You are, you know, you're not trusting him. You are doing something that is not okay.

John Dehlin [00:56:20] Path to sin, maybe.

Kyle Ashworth [00:56:21] You know, and I remember when, February 12th of 2016, when Harry took his life, he, right before that, did write a Facebook post where he thanked those people who did reach out to him and offered him just a bit of love. And I think the second part of this that correlates with what John is talking about is that Harry wasn't a lost cause and Harry wasn't rogue. The very last Internet search on his phone was on LDS tools, searching this topic, trying to find a place where God loved him. That is the queer experience.

Matt Easton [00:56:58] And it hurts because I know exactly what that feels like. And I think that more people than not knows. Knows what that feels like. All right, thank you. Sorry.

John Dehlin [00:57:14] Apologies. This is.

Kyle Ashworth [00:57:16] This is tough stuff.

John Dehlin [00:57:17] This is tough stuff.

Kyle Ashworth [00:57:18] This is a reality,

Matt Easton [00:57:21] and I know that it's not just my reality. And I think that's sometimes what makes Me so emotional is this is too common of an experience. Yeah. So that was my first year at byu. I'm grateful, at least that while these experiences socially were pretty negative, I did have a really, really positive experience in my department where I found out, oh, I really like political science, and I really like the professors in the department. And some of them reached out to me and said, hey, you should consider taking more courses or trying this research. And in that sense, I think that helped distract me or kind of compartmentalize a little bit, where I said, okay, I'm struggling right here, but. But I found a place where I can feel like I can give back and be valued academically. And so I'm gonna put all my focus in there. So I became a very rigorous student, worked really hard to keep my 4.0 GPA, trying to get involved in every club that I can. And I think that. Well, I'd like to say that it's because I'm just a natural go getter. I honestly think that it was sort of more a response just to keep myself alive, honestly, to keep myself from going back to that dark place.

John Dehlin [00:58:40] Stay busy.

Matt Easton [00:58:41] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:58:42] Yeah. Can I. Can I just ask really quickly? I. I remember in the news within the past five or so years, the story of another student, and again, a bit of a trigger warning for those who are sensitive to these sorts of things. Jumping off, like, the highest floor of the Tanner Building at BYU in an attempt to. To die by suicide. Did that happened before, during, or after your time there?

Matt Easton [00:59:05] It was during my time. I believe it was my senior year.

John Dehlin [00:59:07] Okay. You were going to get to that?

Matt Easton [00:59:09] Oh, no, I was. I just. I remember that.

John Dehlin [00:59:12] That was your senior year?

Matt Easton [00:59:13] That was my senior year. You had two.

John Dehlin [00:59:15] At least two public suicide attempts and. Or completions and. Of LGBT students, correct?

Matt Easton [00:59:23] Exactly. Yes. And Harry Fisher and then the student who was in the Tanner Building are the two, I think, most public ones from my time at byu. But I know of people every single year that I was at BYU who were queer, who took their own lives.

John Dehlin [00:59:38] So it's happening every year.

Matt Easton [00:59:39] It's happened at least while I was there. It was usually, though, it would happen, you know, a little more quietly off campus or so. And so I think there wasn't as much media attention, but. But, yeah, I watched my classmates die, like, left and right, you know, people like me, and they're the only people that I'm seeing. I'm not seeing a single queer who is surviving byu, you know, and that's a hard place to be put in Mentally as just, you know, a 20, 21 year old student. Where, you know, and in my political science research, there is evidence that shows just how important representation is in politics, for example, where it's only when we can see what people like us are capable of doing that we can feel that for ourselves. And. Yeah, anyway, so after my first year at byu, I had three months off for my summer vacation. Didn't have a job yet. And one of my good mission companions, we had served together for, gosh, 10, 11 months, almost a whole year. So he's one of my best friends. And we decided, we're like, we were Korean speaking elders. I'd never been to Korea. Let's go take a trip to South Korea. So I was there for, I think three and a half weeks, maybe a month, just checking out Korea, having a good time. And of course I got a little curious. I got on my phone and looked up, you know, where the gay scene is in South Korea. But I was just telling myself just because I wanted to see what it was like, but of course I wouldn't go. And it got to the end of my trip in Korea where one night I was like, you know what? To my friend, I was like, I really want to kiss a Korean girl, you know, again, just. Just trying to put up that wall of showing that I'm straight and that, you know, I like women. And he said, well, Matt, that's great. You can go out, go find a girl to kiss. That is definitely not my scene. So I'm gonna stay back at the hotel. So I went out for the first time ever in my life to like this, this college y part of town in South Korea where there were like a couple clubs and young people. And so I get there and I'd like to think I'm a pretty friendly person. So I make a couple friends there. I'm not drinking or anything. I'm just dancing and find a. I'm talking to her. We start kissing a little bit and I'm feeling absolutely nothing. I'm like, this is so boring. I'm just, I'm not vibing. And. And she, after a certain point, she like whispers in my ear and she's like, hey, do you want to come back to my place? And I felt like I was Joseph and Potiphar's wife. And I'm like, I was like, oh, I just need to go to the bathroom real quick. And I turned around and I ran out of the club and I ran all the way down the street because of course, you know, I'M a good Mormon boy. I'm not gonna do anything like that. And so I'm, like, running away. And I hail a taxi, and I get into the taxi and we start driving back to my hotel. And I look at the. The GPS or whatever, and I see that we're gonna pass by the gay district in South Korea. It's called Itaewon. And right at that moment, it's. It's like, what, midnight or one in the morning? And I think, okay, I'm here across the world in South Korea, all by myself. Nobody knows who I am. It's not really Mormon people around. Maybe. Maybe I should just go see what. What a gay club is like. And I thought, you know, I'm not going to kiss anybody. I'm not going to break any rules. I just want to see gay people like myself, because I've never seen that before. So I have the taxi driver drop me off in Itaewon. I go to this. This gay club, and within like a minute and a half, I'm kissing a boy. And for the first time, for the

John Dehlin [01:03:18] first time in my life at age,

Matt Easton [01:03:19] What, I was 21 at that point. First time I'm kissing a boy.

John Dehlin [01:03:23] Yeah.

Matt Easton [01:03:23] And.

John Dehlin [01:03:23] And you had to go across the world to feel safe to do it.

Matt Easton [01:03:25] Exactly. And it was amazing. I felt this, like. This, like, spark throughout my whole body.

Kyle Ashworth [01:03:32] And you liked it.

Matt Easton [01:03:33] I know. And for the first time, I'm like, oh, my gosh. This is why all my, you know, friends in high school were so obsessed with kissing each other and making out. And I'm like, this is what kissing is supposed to feel like. This is what, like, romance and, I don't know, arousal. This is what it can be. This is amazing. And, you know, that feeling was immediately accompanied by overwhelming guilt and shame where, I mean, I was wearing my garments at the time, you know, I was very, very still devout and religious. And so I leave that club and just break down. You know, I'm in the middle of Korea on some, like, dirty street at 2 in the morning, just feeling like I have betrayed God, that I've committed the biggest sin that I am. I am left to the influence of Satan now. And, you know, I was also visiting people that I had taught on my mission who were back in Korea, and I felt like I had let them all down. You know, I'd broken the honor code at byu, even though it was over the summer. And that's a scary thought all by itself. And, yeah, I was just destroyed, which is, you know, I wish I could Go back and just hold myself and say, you know, I wish I could just enjoy such a normal experience that everyone should be able to enjoy of kissing someone, you know, and, and in

First Steps Toward Coming Out

Kyle Ashworth [01:04:53] those moments, what bargains or deals did you try to make with God as you stepped out of that club and, and start processing and analyzing that shame and guilt, because I think that's probably very familiar with many who will listen to your story and remember that first kiss was, father, I have sinned, therefore I'm going to do this, this and this now. Or what was that interaction like with a higher power in those moments?

Matt Easton [01:05:19] Yeah, I, I am. Wow. I'm like, you know what that's like. Yeah, I didn't even tell you that. But then I'm like, of course, you know, because this is so common. And yeah, tons of bargains going through my head where suddenly I'm like, God, please, I will go to the temple every single day. I will go out with the missionaries more. I think the next day I met up with the missionaries in Korea who I didn't know and went proselyting with them on the street. I mean, I was like, okay, again, my like debt has just gotten ever, ever more deeper and it's time to just pile it back on.

John Dehlin [01:05:52] So, and can I, and can I just add, I'm sorry, just that in today's modern orthodox Mormon context, and you tell me if I'm wrong, Kyle, there are bishops that actually say that will counsel a gay Mormon. Well, kissing's not against the law of chastity. So number one, you're having a way later than normal sort of normative human experience of just trying to discover what gets you excited, what are you attracted to, what do you like? So that's completely normal and it's almost tragic that you have to wait that long, but it's totally normal. And it's actually not even technically against the law of chastity.

Kyle Ashworth [01:06:36] And I think Matt brings up a really good point. No, it's not in terms of most Mormon vernacular, against the law of chastity. But we are held to a different standard because we have the honor code. And Matt, you are a BYU student, therefore you have an extra layer of responsibility and that's where that just compounds itself again and again. Just so many feelings and experiences right now. I just think of my heart breaks for 20 something year old Matt because

John Dehlin [01:07:07] every straight person knows how great their

Kyle Ashworth [01:07:09] first kiss is, how special that is and how normal. It's something that a straight person doesn't say, oh, I had to. I didn't have to think about whether or not there would be a repercussion for kissing or for holding a hand or even going into a straight area of a bar or a straight area of town to attract another person that I was attracted to. Those things aren't common things that we worry about as straight people, but you had to analyze every single second of that experience and second guess and recount all of those steps, which is just fascinating. And I think that is a great look into the experience of an LGBTQ person.

Matt Easton [01:07:47] Yeah. Thank you. I'm really grateful, though, in that moment, that I did have one thought that I think is good, and that's that I needed to talk to somebody that I. That if I was left in my own head, I was not going to be okay. So I called my aunt, which, thankfully, I mean, it was like the middle of the night in Korea, but it was a normal time in Utah. So my aunt, who is basically like a second mom, you know, very close with her, spent summers at her house, you know, I really trust her. I called her, just weeping, saying, aunt Amy, I have broken my covenants. I have destroyed my future. I feel so terrible. And thankfully, you know, she's just trying to talk me down, saying, breathe, Matt. It's gonna be okay. And she gave me some really interesting advice. She said, you know, Matt, you just got off your mission where you spent two years helping investigators, like, learn about the church and do some trial and error and find the truth for themselves. And she's like, in this moment, treat yourself as an investigator. She's like, give yourself some space. All you're doing is just checking out some truth, you know, and whether or not it's your truth.

John Dehlin [01:08:58] What a cool aunt.

Matt Easton [01:08:59] Yeah, she's pretty awesome.

John Dehlin [01:09:00] I want to hug this aunt.

Kyle Ashworth [01:09:01] And did she know that you were gay? Did you jump into that part of

Matt Easton [01:09:04] the story or just say, oh, yes, I did. I came out to her in that moment. So she's the, what, 1, 2, 3, 4th person I came out to. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:09:12] And she kind of a progressive Mormon or like. Or I guess you should not speak for her. But.

Matt Easton [01:09:17] Yeah. Yeah, I guess I'm just loving that.

John Dehlin [01:09:19] That's all I'm saying. I'm loving that response. If you're listening, Aunt Amy, thumbs up for Amy. Thumbs up from John for. What a cool response.

Matt Easton [01:09:26] Yeah, it was.

John Dehlin [01:09:27] Wasn't shaming, you know?

Matt Easton [01:09:29] Yeah, I think it was. No, it was great. And I think it's what I needed to hear, so. So that kind of took a little bit. I mean, I still felt a ton of guilt and shame, but it took off a little bit, and. And kind of with that experience under my belt again, keeping it hidden, not telling a soul. I'm like, besides, Amy, no one's ever gonna know that I kissed this boy. I'm just gonna bury that away like, I've buried everything else away. And. And I started my second semester or my second year at byu, and during my second year at byu, so I'm a sophomore now. My first week of school, I saw a flyer for a counseling therapy group at the counseling center at byu.

John Dehlin [01:10:08] Caps.

Matt Easton [01:10:08] Yeah, caps. It was called Reconciling Faith and Feelings. And it was kind of advertised as the first, like, therapy group that was available to students who maybe were struggling with their sexuality. So I saw this flyer. I'm like, okay, awesome. This is, like, accredited therapists who are on Team BYU who I can trust, who are gonna help me live a straight life. That's honestly the thought I came in. So I signed up for this therapy class, excited that, you know, my mission president didn't help, My mission itself didn't help. Scriptures aren't helping, but maybe this therapy group is gonna help me become straight. So I signed up for this therapy group, and I show up there, and it's the first time that I met other queer people like myself who hadn't, you know, taken their own lives or who were in a club in Korea. And it was the first time that I was exposed to the nuance of our experience, which was super awesome. Where. And I mean that in the sense that I got in there. I think there were nine of us. Maybe there were 10. And then there were two counselors, BYU counselors. And there was. There were some students who were like, I treasure my faith. Absolutely. I will never act on my homosexuality, but I just need a place where I can kind of vent and to help me be a better active member. And then on the same spectrum, there was, you know, somebody who was gay, living with their boyfriend, totally ex Mormon, who was just trying to get out of byu. And then there were lots of people in the middle there. It was mostly gay men. I think there were one, maybe two gay women in there as well. And I really do think that that saved my mental health in the sense where I thought, okay, wait, first of all, I'm not alone. I'm not as isolated as I thought I was. There are other people who get what this feels like. And then in that same token, I felt for the first time I had a space where I could say, okay, this week I'm going to be totally devout and next week I'm going to be a little angry towards the church. And the next week I'm going to be. Just try for a week to just be happy that I'm gay. And then the next week I'm going to be sad that I'm gay. It just, it gave me a safe space to like test. Test out what my truth was and where I wanted to be to test

Kyle Ashworth [01:12:31] out this reality that there isn't just one way to be gay.

Matt Easton [01:12:34] Yes. Yes.

Kyle Ashworth [01:12:35] Seems to be kind of a common theme that we think if you're this way, this is the trail or the channel that you follow. I like that. I like the. I like the ability to recognize within yourself that you have options.

Matt Easton [01:12:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:12:47] And I like that it's a BYU CAPS therapy group that's seemingly supportive of you.

Matt Easton [01:12:54] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:12:54] Owning or trying to understand your identity and work with it versus suppress it and hide it and deny it. That's great.

Kyle Ashworth [01:13:01] Kudos to CAPS without electricity or vomit inducing. Oh, yeah, medications.

John Dehlin [01:13:06] The dark reference to the 70s.

Matt Easton [01:13:07] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:13:08] Check out on the Record for more information about what Kyle just referred to.

Kyle Ashworth [01:13:12] That's deep.

Matt Easton [01:13:13] Yeah. And you know, when I first joined, to be honest, I was a little mad that they weren't just giving me a prescription on how to be straight. But by the end of.

John Dehlin [01:13:21] It wasn't advertised that way though, right?

Matt Easton [01:13:23] It was not. No, no, no, it was. It was very vaguely. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I wanted.

Speaker D [01:13:27] So.

Matt Easton [01:13:27] But, you know, by the end of the semester, I was so grateful because for the first time I felt a little bit more sure of myself or at least a little bit less alone.

John Dehlin [01:13:37] I'm sorry, I had, I had dinner with some friends who either worked for BYU or love it last night and we'll get to Holland's thing later. But the point they wanted to make with me is BYU isn't all bad. Like, BYU does some good things. And I would say that the counseling center at BYU, you know, Counseling Psychological Services, or CAPS, has some amazing, you know, PhD level psychologists who are LGBT affirming, who are supportive of people who are questioning their faith. There's, as I understand it, a really good firewall between CAPS and the honor code office so that, you know, at least up until now. And I don't know if this is true about BYU Idaho, but at least to BYU Provo, you can go to caps, explore whatever you need to explore and not fear like it's going to put your university status in jeopardy. And so I just want to just maybe give credit where credit is due. That BYU maybe has done a really good job with caps, and it seems like it provided you with something very important and valuable.

Matt Easton [01:14:38] Absolutely it did. Yeah. And I learned during that first semester in this group that the group had existed before. I can't remember if it was like a decade before or two decade. I mean, it had been a long time in the past, but that it had been shut down because some of the people had started meeting up outside of group. They started dating. And so there was sort of. There was this pressure put on by the counselors where they said, you know, don't ruin this. Don't ruin it. Because. Because if anyone catches wind or they perceive this place as just like, a chance to meet other gay people and hook up, then it's gonna get shut down.

John Dehlin [01:15:17] Yeah.

Matt Easton [01:15:18] And. And that sort of clued me in that. That even just existing with other queer people at byu, I wouldn't be safe because I could be perceived as breaking the honor code or as wanting to sin. And so even though I felt safe in this group, I still did not feel very safe connecting, like, with anyone outside at byu, because I didn't want to be seen or associated. And I think. I mean, I guess this is speculation, so take it with a grain of salt, but from my understanding, that's sort of a similar reason why the club on campus, usga, was kind of kicked out of campus because they didn't want. Or they. I guess maybe there were concerns from administration or someone that someone like me could show up and maybe meet a future boyfriend or something at this club, and they could not have that. So also during this time, I did experience some pretty awesome things with my family as well. I have a very large LDS family. I've got 24 aunts and uncles, 56 first cousins, very typical large Mormon family. And we're all. All very, very close. In fact, people on livestream aren't seeing this, but two of my cousins are here supporting me today. They're practically siblings. You know, we're really close. And having that many aunts and uncles, as you can imagine, there are some who are quite devout, who were quite outspoken on LGBTQ issues. And, you know, even in college, whenever I'd go to, like, a family party or something, you know, I might have a really conservative uncle who speaks up and says, you know, isn't this gay stuff just awful? Or look at, you know, xyz and made me feel like I was really not in a safe place with my family. But I had a super awesome cousin who I've talked to since I came out. And, you know, he, like most people, he was like, yeah, I'm pretty sure Matt's gay. Like, there's a pretty good chance. And he thought, you know, I'm not gonna pressure Matt into, Like, I'm not gonna corner him and say, matt, tell me, are you gay? But. But my cousin, his name's Brett, he was like, you know what? I'm gonna do what I can to create a safe space so that Matt knows that I support him, so that if he ever did feel safe enough to come out, that he could come to me. And so the way that this looked was that at our family parties, Brett would speak up and push back against my uncle, and he would say, you know, I really don't believe that. I actually don't think gay people are so bad or so wrong. And first of all, I was impressed because I'm like, I'm too afraid to ever say that because I don't want someone thinking I'm gay. So it was almost like Brett was kind of taking that heat for me. But then also, I felt like, you know, even though he was talking to my uncle, he was talking to me, you know, trying to say, matt, I'm a safe place. I'm a safe person. And that, I believe, is Christ. Like, love, you know, that someone advocating for LGBTQ people just speaking up, letting me know that he didn't think that I'm some horrible, evil person. That's, like, the greatest love that I think I've ever felt, especially in terms of my identity. And it's something so small. Like, honestly, that's not hard to do. Just to say, yeah, I think gay people are great, or, you know, like, Ellen's awesome, or, I think Pride festivals are cool. Like, that subtle shift in rhetoric can really make a difference in someone's life, and I know that because it made

Kyle Ashworth [01:18:43] a difference in mine, and it doesn't cost the person offering that type of love anything.

Mixed Messages from LDS Leadership

Speaker D [01:18:48] Can I ask a follow up to that for believers who are in the chat who are maybe listening to this, and they. They love queer people, and they want LGBTQ friends of theirs and family to feel safe. But then they also have that rhetoric of, you know, love the sinner, hate the sin. So somebody asked, yeah, can somebody disagree with you without you feeling unsafe? Can somebody. Can somebody disagree that you are, whether it's choosing to be gay or without making you feel unsafe?

Matt Easton [01:19:22] That's a tough question. That's. And that's a good one. I think it's important to ask. I mean, I think just, you know, my like, initial response is like, what is there to disagree about? Like, this part of myself being gay is not something that's up for debate. It's not something I'm ever gonna be able to change or I can change.

John Dehlin [01:19:43] It's not like you hadn't tried, right?

Matt Easton [01:19:45] Yeah, no, exactly. And so when I hear that people are like, well, can I still disagree with you or speak peacefully?

John Dehlin [01:19:51] It's like disagreeing with your blonde hair or your blue eyes.

Kyle Ashworth [01:19:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:19:54] Disagree with your height, your identity.

Matt Easton [01:19:56] My intrinsic identity.

John Dehlin [01:19:57] Height is just.

Kyle Ashworth [01:19:59] But even further than that, isn't this a disagreement of what Mormonism and even other religious communities believe, that if we do know that you are created by a perfect creator, isn't it disingenuous? And on the other side of the coin, the opposite side of this, to believe that you were created wrong would, would lead someone to believe that God made a mistake in your creation. And within Mormonism or other religious societies, there is no room for this idea that God makes mistakes. So to answer that question, I don't see that either. That is not up for debate. If you believe God is perfect and his creations are perfect, and this is how Matt and Kyle and the millions of other people who are created queer were created, then we have to believe that this is part of a plan. And I think that is the religious question that should be asked. Do we believe God is perfect or not?

John Dehlin [01:20:53] And then I think in the back of the minds of orthodox Mormons, it's like God didn't do it. Like Matt either. Matt kind of messed up or his parents, or like maybe he was abused or, you know, maybe his dad was absent or his mom was over, you know, and they're, you know, whether it's, I don't want to pick on anyone, but like North Star Ty Mansfield, There's a lot of rhetoric that tries without any psychological foundation to pin someone's gayness on parents messing up or parents doing things wrong or abuse or some type of moral failing on your part. And I'm sure you know about all that.

Matt Easton [01:21:28] Absolutely. Yeah. And I, I remember looking at like reading articles about that and like going through checklists like, okay, I was not abused. Okay, My dad was very present. Okay. I feel like my parents love me, okay. Like, like I'm, like I'm constantly didn't do enough sports.

John Dehlin [01:21:42] It's like a self fulfilling prophecy. Because if your personality, you're given personality from childhood is that you don't like sports, well then they can say, well, he didn't do enough sports. If you had done more sports, then. Right.

Speaker D [01:21:54] And isn't there a perception from the church? Kyle, we were talking before. We're about a leaked audio from Elder Oaks. Right. That's probably on the record on your. On your PDF, right? I've been saying, like, nobody label yourself as anything LGBTQ because you don't know yet you might be able to undo it. So maybe that's in the mind of a believing Mormon. I'm guessing they're just projecting, like, I'm disagreeing that your label is accurate. You don't know yourself well enough. Because my interpretation of the God that I believe in would never, ever send somebody to earth making a mistake, making them queer whatsoever. So just wash off that label. That's kind of the rhetoric that. That Oaks was kind of projecting onto, quite honestly. And this is 13 of whatever the BYU population, they just need to wash it away.

Kyle Ashworth [01:22:38] Yeah. And this is so fascinating because there are multiple levels of messaging. There is the messaging that comes from 50 East North Temple through a general conference pulpit. There is a level of messaging that comes across a pulpit in a ward building in Richfield, Utah. There is a message that is promulgated across the kitchen table in wards and homes across Zion. There is this messaging that Kara's speaking about of a general authority. And we're not talking about 20 years ago. We're talking about right before COVID where Elder Oaks goes into a youth fireside and says, don't come out. Don't put a label on yourself. Don't qualify, classify or give yourself anything, because you could change your sexuality, could change. You could get into a mixed orientation marriage. And why diminish yourself? Why degrade that? Degrade yourself with a label like I'm gay or I'm lesbian if there is a chance for you to obtain the full effect of the atonement. And I think it was also interesting that in that very meeting, Oaks does come up and say, I hope this is not recorded, because I don't want this to get out because people will twist my words. So it's all these different levels of.

John Dehlin [01:23:49] You want to mention Bednar's comment?

Kyle Ashworth [01:23:51] And I think Bednar's comment is another great one. For those who don't know, that ties into the Fisher story at BYU with the Fisher suicide. The very next day, Bednar comes out and says, there are no homosexuals in the church.

Speaker D [01:24:03] Church.

Kyle Ashworth [01:24:04] And it wasn't that we were erasing the homosexual identity within the church. He's saying, don't Label yourself. You're only sons or daughters of God. You are not gay, straight, lesbian, bisexual, or transgender. This is the mixed messaging that we're speaking of. And if run of the mill, orthodox or centric Latter Day Saints are confused about this topic, then very far left, very right, Latter Day Saints are polarized. And if it's not coming directly from the top and bishop roulette or stake presidents or elders, quorum presidents, or young men and young women leaders who are coming up with their own versions of the doctrine based on their adjacency to someone who identifies along this spectrum, or

John Dehlin [01:24:51] the miracle forgiveness is lying around the house or the bishop's office.

Matt Easton [01:24:54] Right.

Kyle Ashworth [01:24:54] Unbelievable. Undoubtedly. Then where is the common messaging coming from? And that is the largest problem in Mormonism, is there is not common messaging. How is it that one day we can have a Ballard or a Gong or a cook say nice, pleasant things about a member of the LGBTQ community, and then a Tad Callister come out the very next week and say, if you are a supporter of the LGBTQ community or part of that community, you are a ticking time bomb. There is just this mixed messaging that speaks to exactly what Matt is talking about. How is it that you find direction on a compass that is constantly spinning in terms of this topic, and it gives us whiplash?

Matt Easton [01:25:35] I mean, I was, like, constantly feeling, you know, like, I can't keep up. You know, I'm just being thrashed around, and it's really hard.

John Dehlin [01:25:44] Yeah.

Matt Easton [01:25:45] Yeah. So during my second year at byu, obviously being in this therapy group helped me sort of of open my perspective that maybe there isn't just one way to live my life. Maybe there are a couple different options for me. And, you know, I signed up for the therapy group the next semester. So I did it for a whole year. And during that time, I was like, okay, you know what? I've given so much of my life to the fullness of the gospel, to believing it wholeheartedly. But now I've kissed a boy, I'm meeting other gay people like myself, and it's not as evil as I've been taught. And so I sort of had this moment where I thought, okay, well, you know what? If Mormonism is not true, I want to find out and know because. Because if there's any way that this isn't true, then. Then that will help me be able to live the life that I want to. And so my. My second year at BYU is when I read the CES letter, when I started.

John Dehlin [01:26:43] What year is this?

Matt Easton [01:26:45] This. Let's see. It was my sophomore year of college, so that would be 2016, 2017. Okay, so four years ago.

John Dehlin [01:26:52] Yeah.

Matt Easton [01:26:54] And to be completely honest, I don't think I was quite ready to address that stuff. I read the CS letter and left just a pretty nasty feeling inside of me where I felt a lot of cognitive dissonance, a lot of. I felt very uncomfortable. And so I thought, you know what? Okay, I'm just gonna put this aside. This is maybe not the time for me to explore this, and I'm okay with that. And so I think that while my faith at that point at byu.

John Dehlin [01:27:19] Cuz that's not gonna help you at BYU at all.

Matt Easton [01:27:21] Exactly, exactly.

John Dehlin [01:27:23] Yeah. Losing your faith on top of being gay at byu, Not a good recipe for success at byu.

Kyle Ashworth [01:27:29] So you're trying to tell me the CES letter isn't required reading?

Matt Easton [01:27:33] Maybe it should be, who knows? But yeah. So I guess there were like doubts in my mind, but they weren't more powerful than the connection and the feeling that I still had with my faith. So I continued going to church, continued praying, maybe read my scriptures a little bit less, worked on my scrupulosity, but. But still very much believed and participated. However, I did start dating.

John Dehlin [01:28:01] Oh, byu. Dating men.

Matt Easton [01:28:04] Dating men. Yes, yes. Which I, I haven't talked about a lot before. So I'm, I'm kind of excited to get to share this part of my story. But, But I found, you know, it started just getting on like a dating app. And I would get on there, you know, one night that I'm feeling sad or alone or curious, and I noticed, oh my gosh, like, I recognize that boy from my class. Like, oh, I saw that guy walking on campus. And again, the exposure that I got just from seeing these people where I realized like, like there are tons of people just like me that I'm not alone. And again, it was sort of this learning that, that by exposure and by understanding that there are more people like me, that I felt less alone and I felt more empowered. So I would download Tinder, you know, look at profiles, delete it like three hours later. Then maybe like three, three weeks later, I would download it for a day, then delete it and sort of, I don't know, slowly by slowly I would start chatting with them and then delete it. And, and then, you know, eventually I think I. My first date, I met up with someone for like, like ice cream or something, I think in Orem. And then feel so guilty just for meeting up with someone. Even though, you know, a date is just like Hanging out, you know, it's. But can I ask another question?

Speaker D [01:29:22] Because so much of BYU's culture is dating and getting married, so all your straight friends are going on an immense amount of dates, I'm sure. And are people starting to question, like, why aren't you dating? Or are people in your circle and your friends, like, they're noticing that you're not going on as many dates and you are just like, you kind of just given up dating girls at this point? Like, what did that situation look like?

Matt Easton [01:29:42] Yes, I actually continued dating girls as well. Not so much because I knew that I was not bisexual. So it's not that I was questioning if I was sexually attracted to women. It's more that I still wanted to keep up somewhat of an appearance. So it wasn't frequent, but it would be, you know, like, my roommate would set me up with his female friend and I'd go on a date with her. Or, you know, I would still, when I wasn't on Tinder for men, I would delete it and redownload it to match with women, you know, and so I was still trying to make it work, even while I'm exploring dating men.

Kyle Ashworth [01:30:14] And I think downloading timber, Tinder is incredibly vulnerable in that position. Because Tinder, there's no anonymity in Tinder. And maybe this is jumping ahead or the part of the story you didn't want to talk about, but I would see most people in your situation jump to a Grinder or an anonymous app like that first to start the exploration. But I mean, just props, I think

John Dehlin [01:30:38] that's great because someone can tell on you, right? At byu, with the honor code, you promise to report people if you find them breaking the rules. And so if your face is showing up on Tinder saying attracted to men, isn't that a huge risk?

Kyle Ashworth [01:30:53] It's a great risk. And that is associated with a Facebook profile. So the beauty of Tinder is that it's verifiable that it, for the most part, is for real.

John Dehlin [01:31:04] And for the non Mormon listeners, what I don't think anybody really understands is once you sign that honor code of byu, you're taking all these religion classes that aren't going to transfer to another university by he's got weird classes. And if the. If BYU decides that you've broken one of the rules, they can kick you out immediately. And it can be literally for drinking coffee, drinking a beer, or even going on a date with a man. And then that can put you behind sometimes one to two years because you have to Stop mid semester, then you gotta go apply to other schools. Then you have to get in. Then a year or two of your studies don't even transfer. It can set you back tens of thousands of dollars and at least one to two years of your education. And it happens all the time.

Kyle Ashworth [01:31:50] The current episode that I have on latter Gay stories right now is a young man at BYU Idaho who kissed another guy. And the young man was a year and a half into his school at byu. The guy he kissed was in his senior year, ready to graduate, and both were expelled for a kiss from BYU Idaho. Exactly what you're speaking of their credits, everything that they had worked hard for was removed. And that is. That is the world that someone like a Matt lives under.

John Dehlin [01:32:18] Not to mention the shame of going home to your parents who are so proud of you to get into byu, and your siblings who are looking up to you, and your ward members that all know that's where you went. And now you come home doing that shame walk of having been sent home. And again, these are the types of realities and. Or intrusive thoughts or fears that put people in these places where they feel like there's no escape that they. That then can lead to some of the suicidal ideation.

Kyle Ashworth [01:32:46] Which is the reason why we have discussions just like this, because for so many Latter Day Saints, they don't think this world exists. And these are realities of queer people within Mormonism.

Doubts, Dating, and Leaving the Church

John Dehlin [01:32:57] So back to Tinder.

Matt Easton [01:32:58] Absolutely, yes. And I think, to your point earlier, Kyle, the reason I think I chose Tinder over Grindr is because Grindr, I mean, it's pretty well known that that's a place where gay men go usually to find, like, hookups or to have sexual experiences. And so I knew that if, like, I got caught on Grindr, that it's pretty damning evidence. But say if someone tried to turn me in on Tinder, saying, oh, like, he's. He matched with me or he swiped on me, first of all, they would also be having. They would have to turn to themselves. And second of all, I think that I could easily say, oh, I must have just had my settings off or something, like, I'm on Tinder for women. But the program malfunctioned and showed me a man, you know, and so I did feel like even though there was less anonymity, it was in many ways safer for me. It's a great point.

Kyle Ashworth [01:33:46] Yeah, that's a good save, Matt. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Speaker D [01:33:50] I'm gonna have a very strongly worded message to this Tinder. They had matched me with men. I will be the first to complain to Apple Corporation.

John Dehlin [01:34:00] Yeah, but, but I mean, this is. We come back to this theme a lot. We sometimes learn the rules within a high demand religion, sometimes teach us to lie or to deceive.

Matt Easton [01:34:10] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:34:11] Because you get put in these boxes that don't fit who you are, and then you have this weird situation of a religion teaching you to lie to survive.

Kyle Ashworth [01:34:20] And the message of deceit is what we call exit strategy, where we have created these just like you had prepared yourself to say, oh, it was a malfunction in. This is the bandwidth that we talked about earlier in this episode, the wasted energy, because we create those things. Matt had to sit down and say, I need an exit strategy for this particular situation. If it goes awry, and we're not talking about that word, we can include that into the types of clothes we wear, the mannerisms that we showed in public, even the positions or places we found ourselves in. We are constantly covering our tracks in order to please a group of people that every member, a mission president, that are always watching us, watching our every move and criticizing and critiquing that because

John Dehlin [01:35:04] the church has hundreds of billions of dollars in the bank, access to the best mental health professionals in the world, they could come up with an explicit policy that says, hey, BYU students who are gay, here's what you can do. Here's what you can do. Here's how you meet each other. Here are the lines you can cross and not cross across. Here's a way to feel safe so that you can explore whoever you are, whatever you are. Here are the rules so that you can still be happy, happy and healthy, and not feel like you have to lie and do things in secret. But they keep it super ambiguous, super unclear, making you feel unsafe and that, you know, by 2021, shouldn't the BYU leaders now know that they need to create a better environment for the students? You know what I mean?

Kyle Ashworth [01:35:44] I hope we're getting there.

John Dehlin [01:35:45] Yeah.

Matt Easton [01:35:46] Yeah, I hope so, too.

John Dehlin [01:35:47] This leads to.

Speaker D [01:35:48] I hope that the, the bigger context of this discussion is, you know, people asking on the, the comments here a lot. And you answered this before about why you went to byu. You thought it would be safe, and then why stay, why stay in the church in general? And I hope that if you're comfortable, either now or later, just discussing the, the wider context that this is, sounds like the only way that you understood your place in the world is through being a son of God in this Mormon context. This is how you Become straight, you live a happy life. The only path to success and happiness in the church is pre paved in front of you. So you're going to lie, you're going to continue down this path that is full of just all of this, this kind of trauma and toxicity for a higher and a greater good that you've been conditioned through your family and your upbringing to think is the only way to live a successful, happy life. Is that. That sound about right?

Matt Easton [01:36:39] Absolutely.

Speaker D [01:36:40] Where else are you gonna go? Really?

Matt Easton [01:36:41] Yeah. Yeah. And I think like, again, I, I know that I signed the honor code and by getting on Tinder or by kissing a bo. The honor code, but you know, I didn't sign up to be gay. I didn't sign up to have these struggles. And so.

John Dehlin [01:36:57] And you were promised it'd go away if you're righteous by a priesthood leader.

Matt Easton [01:37:01] Exactly. And, and so I think there is much more like nuance and gray area to, to what I was feeling, experiencing, and, and also like, I really loved the academic rigor of byu and I loved the campus. I mean, they like the moment a flower starts turning brown, they pull it out and plant in a brand new one. Like, it is beautiful and people are so kind there, you know, and you know, walking around campus and you'll hear people scream, elder so and so or sister, and people run across campus to give each other big hugs. And like, in many ways it's really beautiful. And I loved being there. I loved my professors. And so when I contemplated, oh, should I transfer? Well, academically, what would that mean? You know, I've worked so hard to maintain my gpa, to work in these clubs. I'm gonna have to give that all up financially. I was on full scholarship. I don't know if I can afford going to another school. And spiritually, I don't know if I'm willing to give that up.

John Dehlin [01:37:53] You still believed.

Matt Easton [01:37:54] Exactly. Where I'm like, if I leave byu, is this leaving my faith? And I don't know if I can do that yet. So it was just complicated. I was just doing the best with what I had and I didn't have a lot. So my second year at BYU was a lot better than my first in quite a bit of ways. And I also remember, you know, Tinder is not the only way that, that you can meet queer people at byu. There's also usga, which I think I went to a couple times. But again, I was afraid of being recognized there. And kind of what I think is like the third way is just sort of organic meeting and there's kind of this like unspoken language, at least while I was at byu, that that queer people kind of have for each other. So, so for example, I remember being in one of my political science classes and I saw this boy walk in and, you know, you can just kind of tell, oh, maybe he's queer, kind of gay. And so like throughout the class, we'd kind of look at each other, you know, and then slowly in passing, it would kind of be like, at some point I'm like, are you gay? And he'd be like, yeah, are you gay? And sort of this like, quiet like, undercurrent where you're just trying to find out who you can trust. And even then you don't know if you can trust them. Are they gonna be like a safe place? Are they gonna turn me in? And so during my second year at byu, I was really lucky that I started slowly through these currents, finding a group of friends that was really supportive. One of my best friends, his name is Connor, he's also gay and he went to byu. So we met, we had the same major, political science. And so our first time hanging out, we made a pact. We said, you know, we really need gay friends who understand where we're at at. Let's promise each other we're never going to date, we're not going to be romantic, but we need like a best friend that understand each other. And so from that point forward and throughout the rest of my time at byu, I had Connor, who thankfully, you know, I could talk to and again overcome that loneliness and have someone as a support. And we also found a couple other friends in our program, some who were super active Mormon lds, some who were kind of in the middle, another one who was queer, some of them were straight. And sort of by forming this close knit group was sort of how I got to come a little more into my own. So, yeah, so also during that year, my second semester of my second year, is when I got my first boyfriend. So I started dating a boy at BYU who was another student. And in a lot of ways it was so fun. I felt like I was 14, you know, these experiences that, you know, people in my classes had when they were kids or teenagers, I was finally getting to experience at 22 years old. And with it came, you know, a lot of emotional immaturity because I don't know how to handle relationships. And then on top of that is this overwhelming fear that at any moment we could be caught and lose everything. So I remember, you know, we would go to the Student center, the Wilkinson Center. And we'd get lunch together and hold hands under the table, but we'd constantly be looking. And anytime that someone would look our way, we'd have to pull our hands back, you know. And I remember just hanging out together and, you know, his roommate would question us, Are you guys gay? And he would say, if you're gay, I'm gonna turn you in. Because there are BYU or kids who didn't get in who deserve to be here instead of some, you know, know, gay guys. And so there. There was this again, just really hard because I felt like I was having this, like, honestly, like, innocent experience of getting to date for the first time. But it was overshadowed by this fear and anxiety and constantly feeling like I was being watched and that I was one step away from. From losing everything. So we dated not very long. It was great experience, but by the end of the semester, you know, I wasn't dating him anymore.

The Honor Code and LGBTQ Students

John Dehlin [01:41:52] And.

Matt Easton [01:41:53] And that was the only time that I, you know, had a boyfriend while I was at byu. I continued to date off and on, but I think the anxiety was just too much. I really couldn't keep doing. Doing something like that. And so also. So after my second year, I'm slowly starting to experiment a bit more. And over that summer, my friend and I were in an airport. This time we were in India. So, I mean, I guess maybe there's something about me going abroad that maybe I should.

John Dehlin [01:42:23] Makes you feel safe.

Matt Easton [01:42:23] That makes me feel safe. Thank you.

Kyle Ashworth [01:42:25] Yeah.

Matt Easton [01:42:25] So we're at some airport and we're like. I remember just kind of feeling, you know, kissing a boy, dating a boy wasn't as bad as what I'd been taught. It was actually, like, pretty great. And so it made me wonder, what other things have I been have. Has there been a hedge put around that actually aren't as bad as I've been taught? And so we're at this airport and we decided to try some alcohol. So I had a drink there at this airport with my friend. We had a drink, didn't think much of it. And she and I didn't drink together again. And fast forward like 10 months later. So this is now my third year at BYU. And she comes up to me and she says, matt, you know what we did at the airport? This is in like February or March, so it's almost been a year now at this point point she says, I want you to know that I still feel really guilty about this. And I went to my bishop and I told him, and he said that I Have to go turn myself into the honor code, and I have to turn you in as well. And so in that moment, I realized, oh, my gosh, one of my biggest fears, I'm getting turned into the honor code for drinking. But then also I realized, you know, if they open any sort of investigation, I could be putting myself at greater risk if they find out that I'm gay or if some of my friends who are also gay, they connect and they. They accuse, you know, them of doing something where suddenly I felt like my. My entire, like, community and network was at risk. So that was this pretty freaky. So I. I went into the honor code and I turned myself in because I thought, you know, better they don't it open an investigation. I just come clean. So I get a message from the. The honor code counselor that I was to meet with. And so I Google searched her name, obviously, before I started. And the first thing that popped up when I searched her name was an article that she had written for the Universe, which is the campus newspaper. And this article, she's talking about how she had a friend that she really, really loved. You know, they were great, great pals. And that that friend confided in her and came out as gay. Gay. And that she felt even though she loved her friend so much, that the right thing to do to honor her covenants would be to cut that friend out of her life. And so this article that I read from this honor co counselor I'm about to meet with is I'm getting this feedback that she's willing to cut people that she loves out of her life if they're gay. And again, I felt incredibly unsafe where I thought, if this counselor even finds out that I'm gay, she'll take the harshest road possible, the harshest punishment, you know, and again, just shows how easy it is to feel unsafe and fearful at byu. So I get to the honor code office, and there are signs everywhere in this office that say, no recording. Absolutely no recording. You know, there's signs that say, like, if you're caught recording taking photos using a camera, you will automatically get the worst punishment possible. And so I'm sitting in this office like, oh, my gosh, this is so scary. Like, what do they have to hide? That I can't film something. They're afraid that they get exposed. And so I go into this meeting with this woman, and we talk about what happened, and I get put on honor code probation. And so I thought, just briefly, I can talk a little bit about what that's like. Like, for, for one drink of alcohol. I had to meet with my bishop weekly for six months. I was put on academic probation. So anytime I wanted to add a class, I'd have to call the honor code office and they add it for me. I had to, they recommended I go see a therapist. So I had to go start seeing a therapist. I had to meet with my counselor every month to check in. I had to keep a daily scripture journal. I had to watch devotional every single day and write a report on it.

John Dehlin [01:46:26] Holy moly.

Matt Easton [01:46:27] I to had to give three hours of service every single week and get them signed off. I mean it was so, it was like a four credit class for six months that I had to do. And during this time I interned at the United nations in Switzerland, but I had to keep doing this stuff. So, you know, while my other interns would go to Paris for the weekend, you know, I'd have to go to church and make sure at the UN I'd have to get people to sign off on my hours of service. And I guess I'm bringing this up all to say, not that, not that I'm, I'm like, I, I, I am accepting the punishment that I got. But I don't think that it had the same effect that they thought. I mean it made me kind of resent what they were forcing me to do. And, and if their purpose was trying to reconnect me with God, I felt like it was pushing me further away. And that, and that was hard to reconcile because it was too, it was kind of a little humiliating too. Yeah. Controlling, humiliating. Embarrassing.

John Dehlin [01:47:26] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [01:47:28] And one of the use or one of the people watching this just said, and we pay our tithing for this. And I think that's a really great point. Latter Day Saints, your tithing money is going to pay counselors and honor code office officers, these people within this office, to monitor a single drink of a Moscow Mule, which ruins your life for six to eight months in terms of, I mean this is just to me, over the top crazy.

John Dehlin [01:47:58] And I could hear orthodox members saying, well you sign the honor code and a lot of people want to go to byu and if you can't obey the rules, then you deserve whatever punishments they give because other people can just jump right in and fill your place. I can see people.

Matt Easton [01:48:13] Yeah. And it's interesting to people who say that. I usually like to respond by saying, you know, I went and saw my bishop right as this was happening. I'm like, geez, I've got to go talk to him. And so I Drive out to his house and I talk to him and I'm like, bishop, there's something I really gotta talk about with you. And he's all serious and I'm like, I had a drink at an airport with one of my friends and he looks at me and he says, why are you coming to talk to tell me about that? He's like, this is not a big deal at all. He's like, you know this. I wouldn't even stop you from taking the sacrament if you told me this. Like this is such a non issue. And it just shows me how could my ecclesiastical leader, who we believe is called of God to receive revelation for me is telling me that I am a okay in this category, that I am right with God and Jesus. But then this academic institution is giving me bureaucrat basically. Yeah. Bureaucracy is giving me all of this work to prove that I have repented. And in the same token, the feedback I got from my bishop was worlds different than the feedback my friend got from her bishop. And so, you know, people talk about this game of bishop roulette or needing to, you know, if you just go to a church, you know, the next city over is actually really accepting and it's going to be awesome. You know, I think my physical location should not determine whether or not I'm going to be safe or okay. You know, and I, I don't want to have to choose where I live just so that I get a bishop who's not going to try to get me expelled from byu. You know, it's just, it's complicated, you know, and I'm getting conflicting messages from my leaders and all in the name of faith and of Jesus Christ who drank wine. Yeah.

Being Selected as BYU Valedictorian

Kyle Ashworth [01:50:00] I think maybe the other part of this, the discussion that we haven't brought up up is what did Matt think? Because in a church that's so heavily influenced by personal revelation, you have all of these differing opinions that are telling you what you should think. How did that relate to Matt's personal revelation? What did Matt think about Matt?

John Dehlin [01:50:19] Yeah, and I want you to answer that. But I just want to make clear Jesus drank wine. Joseph Smith drank wine the night before he was killed, like many of the early prophet citizen revelators of our church, drank beer, drank wine. It was just a 20th century sort of change where the word of wisdom went from being a recommendation to an actual requirement. So, you know, the fact that you're getting punished for something that Joseph Smith and Jesus did is, I mean, it's obviously a little bit weird, but yes to Kyle's question.

Matt Easton [01:50:49] I mean, my first thought was, you know, I've already committed one of the greatest sins of all by kissing a man. And so, you know, the only worst thing I could do is what, murder somebody and then deny God in front of me, of me. And so I'm like, you know, drinking is, is several steps down on, on this, the sin spectrum, at least for me, that's how I felt. So, yeah, I didn't feel particularly guilty or bad about what I had done

John Dehlin [01:51:15] because you already kind of fallen in your own eyes a little bit.

Kyle Ashworth [01:51:18] But we're also talking about nearly a year later. So it wasn't that.

Matt Easton [01:51:21] It wasn't.

Kyle Ashworth [01:51:22] This wasn't a fresh sin. This was. I mean, you're bringing back an old wound. Essentially, you're looking at scar tissue, tissue and analyzing scar tissue and just remembering the day that that happened. And for most of us, we would just move on from that experience.

Matt Easton [01:51:35] Right. And what's interesting too is my counselor had told me that typically just for one drink, they probably would have just given me a warning or something, but because I wasn't an endowed student, that my punishment was going to be harsher. And so again, I sort of got this message that our students, even though we've all agreed to the same code, were being held to different standards. And I couldn't help but feel like, like that's so representative of how I feel as a queer person that I'm again, held to a different standard than my straight colleagues. So, yeah, anyhow, that's kind of the biggest, I guess, points throughout my BYU career until I get to my senior year where, you know, I decided just to focus in on my academics. You know, it's when I first started thinking maybe I want to go get a of piece. PhD, which I've now just started. So I really just put my energy and effort into working with my professors. And the time comes around near the end of my senior year where we can send in applications to be valedictorian. So every single department gets to choose a valedictorian. So for my college, the College of Family Home and Social Sciences, there was, I don't know, 7, 8, 9 valedictorians. There's one for political science, sociology, psychology. And so for my department, the way it works is you have to be in like, the top 5% of your GPA does. So, you know, I had a 4.0, so I was in the top GPA. And then you also have to submit your extracurricular activities, so internships, you've done Professors you've worked with, research you've completed, it's a pretty tough position to. To. To receive. So I got. I sent in my application, and a couple weeks later I got the email back saying that I'd been selected as the valedictorian, which was so exciting. You know, I called the college for.

John Dehlin [01:53:30] For your department?

Matt Easton [01:53:31] For my department, yes, for my department, which was super exciting because, you know, I'd worked so hard and to kind of get this positive feedback showing, yes, I've accomplished something really, really great and really awesome, despite the fact that I've gone through the hardest challenges in my life up to this point. Point. So even though there's, you know, half dozen valedictorians, the way that the college ceremony works, the commencement, there's only one valedictorian speaker, and then there's one valedictorian who gives a musical number, and then I think a valedictorian gives the opening prayer and a closing prayer. So they try to get us all to participate, but it's not guaranteed what position we can participate in. So we all went up to the dean's office and we did little interviews, all the valedictorians. And I was kind of surprised when I got the email back saying that I'd been chosen to be the graduation speaker. And so that's where I got to be the one who would speak for and on behalf of my college, the valedictorians, and all the students who were graduating. So a super great honor and also a little intimidating. And I remember when I got that email in a way that I honestly can only describe as inspirational, is I got this thought where, oh, maybe I should come out in my speech. It didn't come from someone trying to push an agenda on me or like a queer club who was trying to say, you know, let's make a big scene. It's. It's. What I believe was. Was my heavenly father telling me that there's a chance for me to do a lot of good. And so I kind of pondered, thought about this for a couple days, and I think that I was motivated as well, because I thought, once I graduate byu, if I don't come out soon, am I ever going to come out? Or am I going to be forever in the closet? I was preparing to move to Salt Lake to work at a data analytics firm, and I thought, am I just going to keep living this double life? Am I just going to keep crafting myself in the way that I think people want me to be? I thought I didn't. And so maybe if I came out this way, you know, there's no taking it back. There's no going back in the closet. And I think that was kind of appealing to me. So the next step that I did is I researched every single valedictorian speech that I could find. I mean, I listened to dozens and dozens on YouTube, famous ones at big colleges, every single BYU one that I could find. I mean, I really did my research about what was appropriate rhetoric. What stories do people typically tell? What is the length of. You know, I'm an. I'm an English minor. And so I actually really enjoyed this part. But I really took my time to make sure that I was intentional in the things that I was going to say. So after a bunch of drafts, I'm working through it, trying to figure out the best place to put in that I'm proud to be a gay son of God, making sure that I share my testimony of Jesus Christ, and making sure that I acknowledge other students who maybe aren't like me so that everyone can feel included and accepted. Like, I really am proud of the work that I put into this speech. And I was also told that I needed to get it approved two weeks in advance by the dean's office. So I'm working on this, and then two weeks before graduation comes around, I send my speech in, and kind of in my mind, I thought, okay, I know I want to come out this way. But I also know that some people, no matter what, are going to perceive it as agenda pushing or polarizing or political. So that's the dean's job, the approver's job, to see if it's good or bad. So I'm gonna let them choose their verdict, and I'm gonna follow whatever they say. So I made the decision. If they tell me that I shouldn't say that in my speech, I'm not gonna say it. I'm not gonna go against them. But I also thought, I wanna make sure that they don't just skim my speech and they maybe miss the one line where I talk about being gay. And so before I sent the document in, I made little notes off to the side. So, for example, at the beginning, I said, you know, I want to include all these people because we're all part of the gospel choir. And believe it or not, I quoted Elder Holland's talk. And when I came out, I cited Elder Ballard, who said that we needed to understand and empathize with our. The experience of our LGBTQ brothers and sisters. You know, and then I made sure that they know I want to bring it back so that people, their own struggles or their own triumphs and that they can feel their own love of Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ's love for them. So I made all these annotations because I just felt like I had to cover all my bases. And I sent in the speech, kind of say a little prayer, like, jesus, take the wheel. Whatever happens will happen. And less than 24 hours later, I got an email back from one of the associate deans who said, matt, I've read your speech. Thank you for all the annotations. So he acknowledged that he'd seen my notes. He said, I think it's a perfect speech. I loved it. I think it will be great and a great venue for it. So at that moment I realized I'd done everything that I felt I was supposed to. I'd made sure that I got all the approval that I needed. And now I was like, oh, oh, shoot, now I've actually got to come out this way.

Planning a Public Coming Out Speech

John Dehlin [01:58:43] Can I ask you one question about that?

Matt Easton [01:58:44] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:58:46] So I can hear kind of an orthodox Mormons saying, you know, a BYU valedictorian doesn't talk about their heterosexuality. They're not going to come out as heterosexual. So why would. Why is your sexuality even on the table? What was your. What's your agenda? What are you trying to do? Why would you. And again, these are a fictitious person's questions or thoughts. Why would you pollute a speech or make it political or, or try to advance some sort of agenda when that. It's about. It's about byu, it's about the church, it's about education, it's about celebrating, you know, people graduating. Why are you even talking about sexuality?

Kyle Ashworth [01:59:27] Clearly John hasn't read the comment section of any of the media going on right now. These fictitious people who would say, why? Yeah, I think that's a super valid question because every faith affirming comment section that I've read is asking that question.

Matt Easton [01:59:42] Yeah, to be honest, I thought back to my freshman year and I thought back to Harry Fisher and how alone I felt. And I thought about how undoubtedly there were other queer students who were freshmen at BYU right then who were feeling just as isolated as I did and probably who were looking around and seeing that the only people like them were the ones taking their lot, you know, that were. That were pushed and forced to suicidal thoughts. And.

John Dehlin [02:00:11] And so I thought representation thing you said.

Matt Easton [02:00:13] Exactly. I thought, you know what? I am in a place where I can show other queer people like myself that we can be the valedictorian. You know, that not only can we, like, like, be tolerated at byu, but we are needed at byu. You know, the professors need our ideas and our research and our comments and that our community needs our creativity and our ideas and that we can be successful. That just because we are gay doesn't mean that we are doomed to a subpar life. So I thought, you know what? Yes. I want other students like me to see that and feel that, and I want there to be, for maybe the first time in a long time, a positive narrative about a queer student at byu.

Speaker D [02:00:58] Can I ask a question? So I didn't go to byu, and you are. Are hot on the scene at byu, valedictorian in the groups, you would know the answer to this question. You mentioned earlier that one person a year of your time there that was queer ended their life in one way or another. So I'm. It sounds like what you said is that by being inclusive and coming out during your speech was a way to be vocal that you exist at BYU and to give a voice to other people. If that saves one life of somebody at byu, I think it's worth it. I think you would think it's worth it. Has there ever been anyone at BYU who has ever ended their life because somebody came out at BYU because somebody felt like their religious freedom, their. Their right to have a valedictorian speech that didn't have anything to do with anyone's sexuality? Has anyone ever. Has anyone ever, like, gone into a long depressive episode because of somebody doing that?

John Dehlin [02:01:59] You're kind of saying downside versus upside.

Speaker D [02:02:01] The downside versus upside. No question. So. So you were on byu. Is that. Is that even an issue?

John Dehlin [02:02:09] You were getting emotional when she was asking the question. What were you thinking?

Kyle Ashworth [02:02:12] What were you feeling?

Matt Easton [02:02:13] I was thinking that, you know, the way that I've come out, I've received a lot of love, but I've also received a lot of hate, and especially from people I love, from family members, from my mission president, from. From people I really care about. But I really believe that I will take that heat and those negative comments for the rest of my life if that means that one less person takes their life, so worth it to me. It is so worth it to me. And I hope. And in fact, people have reached out to me and said that because of the things that I shared at my speech, that it saved them at least for another day. And that's awesome. That's the only agenda that I have. And, And. And that's why I'm proud of it, and I'm grateful that I did it. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:03:02] Anything else about before versus after, or did you get everything you want to say about before the speech itself or the day of or anything?

Matt Easton [02:03:10] Yeah, I. I think. I think that I did, I guess. One other thing to say.

Delivering the Valedictorian Coming Out Speech

John Dehlin [02:03:14] Were you shaking in your boots when you actually gave the talk?

Matt Easton [02:03:16] Oh, I was. I was. I was. My hands were so clammy. I was so nervous.

Kyle Ashworth [02:03:20] But that's what I loved about the talk, because you said, I didn't ever plan on coming out to my graduating class. And I would think that most of us didn't ever plan or know when that moment was going to be. But under the umbrella of the Marriott center, with 10,000 people, family and friends and friend and foe, such an enormous

Matt Easton [02:03:40] opportunity, but also a lot of courage.

John Dehlin [02:03:44] That's a lot of courage.

Kyle Ashworth [02:03:46] Yeah.

Matt Easton [02:03:46] And to be honest, the response that I got immediately in the graduation arena was not at all what I expected. I had prepared myself to say, people are gonna, like, there's gonna be crickets, or maybe people will boo. Who knows? But I'm ready for whatever comes my way. And yet, when I came out, at least on my end, I felt just applause. You know, there was applause, there was cheering. I felt it at the end, or when you said it, right when I said it. I'm proud to be a gay son of God. There was. There. There were cheers. I mean, yeah, my cousins who were here, they. They were there as well. And. And I think they can speak to that. That people were cheering. People were excited that I shared this.

Kyle Ashworth [02:04:24] Were they the filmmakers?

Matt Easton [02:04:26] No, my sister was. Yeah. I do remember the night before I gave my speech, I really. I honestly did not think that. That it would kind of blow up the way that it did. I thought, you know, some people on. On Twitter, the desn community is probably gonna get mad at me or, you know, know, call me a slur or something. And, you know, progressive progmos on Twitter are gonna like it, but. But that's about where it will end. So I met up with my cousin Brett, the one who, you know, has been helping me through my. Through my journey.

Speaker D [02:04:58] Comment section. Loves Brett. Everyone wants a Brett.

Matt Easton [02:05:00] We love Brett. And. And so I read my speech to Brett, and I'm like, brett, I want you to know I'm gonna be doing this. I'm gonna need you the next couple days as grandma and grandpa find out.

Kyle Ashworth [02:05:10] And.

Matt Easton [02:05:11] And I don't know how our family's gonna react.

John Dehlin [02:05:12] And.

Matt Easton [02:05:13] And of course, Brett was like, yeah, I'm there for you 100%. And. And he kind of looked at me the night before and he says, matt, you know, like, this could go viral. And I was like, brett, you have. You have, like, way too much faith in, like, my abilities. Like, this is not gonna happen. So, like, I really honestly did not believe that it would kind of take off the way that it did. And it wasn't until the night after I gave my graduation speech that things started getting a little crazy. And, you know, it started with an article that bcc, by Common Consent, which is a popular, like, progressive Mormon blog. They wrote an article about me, and then within 24 hours, I was getting reporters calling me every 15 minutes. They showed up to my parents house, they were calling my family, you know, in the Midwest.

John Dehlin [02:06:00] The Trip Deseret News.

Matt Easton [02:06:01] The Trip Deseret News. Yeah. First it was all local, local papers, and then by the beginning of the next week, it was all national. Associated Press, Associated Press, New York Times, Washington Post, which was exciting, but also super scary because I don't know if you're aware, but you don't actually receive your diploma when you graduate. It takes about six weeks to get mailed to you. And I'd heard stories before about people who came out or who showed that they had broken the honor code after they graduated, but before they. They got their diploma, and their diploma got held, you know, and they never received it. And so here I am talking to reporters, and I feel this immense responsibility to be very careful about what I say, first and foremost, because I don't want to lose my degree. You know, I've worked four years to become valedictorian. This is something I'm not gonna be able to replicate anywhere else, and I don't want to lose that work. But then also, I felt like I had to toe this line where suddenly I was being asked by some reporters to bash on the LDS Church and the community that raised me. But then other reporters asked me to bash the LGBTQ community and to say that gay people can be perfectly happy in the church. And I don't know if that was my experience. No, I do know it was not my experience. And so again, there's this still immense pressure of. Of feeling like I had to be a certain way and I had to present a certain way, and I had to be very careful in what I said because I still wasn't safe. So anyhow, I start giving more interviews, went on a podcast or two, and then the social media response was kind of so overwhelming, both positive and Negative that I thought, yeah, I gotta check out of this. And so called up my friend Connor from earlier and another friend, Samantha, And I said, all right, you guys are gonna be my PR people. So I gave them all my logins, I gave them my email. I said, I am not gonna respond to anyone. You guys just do that for me. And they did, which I'm so grateful for. So anyone who ever goes viral or who kind of gets caught up in some controversy, that's my biggest recommendation, is find some people to help monitor your social media for you so you don't have to. Because I think that really saved my mental health. So they're, you know, replying, setting up interviews with me. They're deleting mean comments from my Instagram so I don't have to see them. And then one morning, I think it was Monday morning, Connor says, matt, you've got an email from the Ellen show. And I was like, oh, my gosh.

Speaker D [02:08:39] What?

Matt Easton [02:08:39] Like the Ellen show? And so it was. It was one of their producers, and they say, hey, can we get on a FaceTime? So I FaceTime her. And she says, we've heard your story. We're super inspired by what you did. We don't know if we want you on the show or maybe if we wanted to, like, like, film you locally and show it or just send you some swag. So they had me do like a bunch of interviews, probably four or five. And I think they were kind of gauging to see, you know, can I talk in front of a crowd? Am I gonna be weird or uncouth? And the whole time they're saying, we're not promising anything, but don't go on any other interviews. Just kind of wait. And so I'm, you know, I talked to Connor and I said, should I keep doing this? And he says, well, you know, what's. What's your purpose? What do you want to get out of this? And I thought, you know, I want as many people to hear my story as possible and be uplifted by it. And he thought, well, the Ellen show is probably a great place to do that. So the next day, less than 24 hours later, they called me and said, hey, can you go to the Salt Lake airport right now? So I packed a bag, hopped on the airplane, and suddenly I was on the Ellen show, which was such.

John Dehlin [02:09:47] In la.

Matt Easton [02:09:48] Was it LA in la? Yep. So flew out there, they had, like, a limousine pick me up at the airport. I mean, it was so fun. It was so much fun.

Viral Aftermath and National Attention

John Dehlin [02:09:54] What's it like Being on the Ellen show, I just want to hear it all. It's always been a dream of mine.

Matt Easton [02:10:00] Me personally, I know that not everyone has had a great experience on the Ellen show, and I want to recognize that. But I had a great time. They gave me a per diem for food, and I felt like a celebrity. And they did. So they took me to the studio and they put me in one of their waiting rooms. In fact, it was actually the waiting room where Taylor Swift got scared in. And so that was kind of cool. I was like, oh, my gosh, I'm sitting in a chair. Taylor Swift sat. And they were very strict. They were like, you cannot leave your room. You know, if you go trying to talk to other celebrities out there or try to find Ellen, we're just gonna cut your whole part. So I'm like, yes. Like, I would be very obedient. Stayed in this room.

Kyle Ashworth [02:10:36] Obedient. I'm good at this. I'm really good. I've had a lot of practice.

Matt Easton [02:10:39] I mean, for the most part, yes.

Speaker D [02:10:41] So staying in a closet.

Matt Easton [02:10:44] I am a pro. So they film two shows at a time. So I was there for like four hours before my segment went on. And during that time, a producer would come in and kind of say, here's the outline we want to do. Let's practice. So I kind of knew what I. What I was going to say, what I needed to say, but I didn't meet Ellen beforehand. So when my segment was ready, they take me backstage, and then when I'm walking on and meeting her is the first time I'm really meeting her. And it was. It was amazing. It was such a cool experience to. To feel people who I really admired and trailblazers for the LGBTQ community reach out to me with open arms, you know, it was a better feeling than I ever could have imagined. And honestly, I kind of blacked out during the interview. I don't remember what I said. So when I was watching it, when it came out a couple weeks later, I'm like, yeah, I don't even remember what I said to this response. And that's all to say that it was really fun and really loved. And as soon as the segment was over, I give Ellen a hug, the producer comes, pulls me away, I get put in the car, and I'm off to the airport. So it was very quick experience, but. But so much fun.

John Dehlin [02:11:54] I would have been so nervous.

Matt Easton [02:11:56] Yeah, I was super nervous. Super, super nervous.

John Dehlin [02:11:59] National, international tv.

Matt Easton [02:12:01] Yeah, yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [02:12:02] But of like minded people, you have Ellen that had that Same experience. And. And she's been able to trailblaze for so many, many LGBTQ people. So I just think that it's not even irony. It's just really a special experience to be able to meet a modern day Harvey Milk in a way.

Speaker D [02:12:22] Well, and how do you articulate to people who would assume that, like, well, of course you came out for attention that, like, look at all the viral, like, you gotta go meet Ellen. That people do not have a good faith interpretation to what coming out meant to you. At this speech, did you have a lot of comments like that as well, where it's like, oh, look at you, Mr. Celebrity now?

Matt Easton [02:12:42] Yeah, I had a couple of those. And I. And I struggled with that because I also felt quite a bit of imposter syndrome, because I am the first to say that there are other students who have worked way harder than I have for way longer to make changes at BYU who have gone through a lot of institutional pain and personal price. So I sort of felt. I was like, okay, I came out of my graduation speech, but I don't think that I deserve this platform in the same way, you know, like these other students. You know, for example, Addison Jenkins, who was the previous USGA president. I mean, he has devoted so much of his time that I was like, you know, I don't know if I should really be in this situation. But, you know, again, Brett, going back to him, another shout out, he told me, like, nomat, you don't have to feel guilty because this was meant to be. This was your time to do what you did. And there's a reason why it happened this way. We all have different purposes and callings in the way that we will help. But I believe the work roll forth. And this was just my part that I was able to play.

Speaker D [02:13:53] And that's the Brett that's right here.

Matt Easton [02:13:54] The Brett that's right here.

Speaker D [02:13:55] Brett. You say your name with one T or two T's because there's a hashtag be like Brett going on in the comments. Comments. So there's a campaign.

John Dehlin [02:14:01] Two T's.

Speaker D [02:14:02] Two T's. Okay, everyone get the spelling right. Be like Brett.

John Dehlin [02:14:06] Okay, I have to ask. So of course, you know, Kyle and I, you know, was this 2017, 2018. What year was this?

Matt Easton [02:14:13] It was 2019.

John Dehlin [02:14:14] Yeah, it was two years ago. Okay, it's two years ago. Of course, we heard almost immediately, holy crap. A BYU valedictorian during commencement came out as gay. And so we're like, you know, obviously we care and we're excited and we Want wonder what this type of thing means. I know I reached out to you and was like, come on, you want to come on more stories? And Kyle, you probably did the same thing.

Kyle Ashworth [02:14:35] Absolutely. So we both felt where you were at and also knew how inundating that whole experience was. And I also. And I think John's kind of in this position too, sometimes. I appreciate the interview when the storm settles, when things calm down, because that's where we get the real story. In my experience, in the heat of the moment, it is just frantic, and you're going from one spot to the next. But the beauty was in the later when. When everything was calmed down a little bit and clearer minds, I guess, prevailed at that point. So. But we were. We were rooting. We all were rooting for this. This great story. This was. This was a fantastic story.

John Dehlin [02:15:17] And I always know their sensitivities, but I always have to ask because I. You know. But anyway, I'm sure it's hard to make that decision. Was your faith still fully intact by this point and. Or had you listened to either Kyle's latter gay stories or Mormon stories by this point or not yet?

Matt Easton [02:15:36] Yeah, I had listened to Mormon stories and latter gay stories a couple times before, so I was familiar with it. And to be completely honest, I remember getting the message from you, John, on Facebook book, and, you know, Brett was the one that had introduced me to Mormon stories. And so I. Wow, this. This interview is something all about Brett. We got to get you up here. But he, you know, I called him, and I was like, should I do this? And he's like, well, just so, you know, like, it. It can be kind of polarizing, you know, and. And you should do what you feel

John Dehlin [02:16:05] comfortable, but definitely not before you get your degree.

Matt Easton [02:16:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:16:08] Yeah.

Speaker D [02:16:09] And.

Matt Easton [02:16:09] And that's exactly why where I was still really scared, and I was worried that if I. If I. If I went on record somewhere and I said the wrong thing, that, you know, I was still at risk. And so at that point, I didn't feel ready to share my authentic story. And so in some ways, I know we're getting to it, but this past week, as tough as it's been, I feel, like, immensely grateful that there's a chance that I feel like I can reclaim my story and speak a little more authentically, you know, that I can share my story about my first kiss. And, you know, I'm not gonna get kicked out of Berkeley for that, you know, and so in that way, thank you so much for having me on here again. It's been great.

John Dehlin [02:16:47] And was there any BYU administrative blowback, any negativity from church leaders, from BYU officials? Did you catch wind of any negativity after the talk and. Or the public media firestorm or rainbow storm, glitterstorm that came after your.

Matt Easton [02:17:07] The glitter storm?

John Dehlin [02:17:07] The media?

Matt Easton [02:17:08] Yeah. No, absolutely not. I got.

John Dehlin [02:17:10] Oh, it was all positive.

Matt Easton [02:17:11] So much support from my professors, from the administration, you know, from my local bishop, from my home ward that I grew up in. And I. I'm sorry, I have to tell the story a little bit vague just for privacy reasons, but one of my very best friends, her dad, is involved in senior leadership in the Elias Church, and so he expressed that, you know, I was his daughter's best friend, and she told me that he had had a meeting with. With the First Presidency in the Quorum of the twelve Apostles, and they told him to tell my friend, who, sorry to tell me that they were happy for me, that they were proud of me and that they loved me.

John Dehlin [02:17:55] That's validating huge.

Matt Easton [02:17:57] Absolutely. And so I remember, yeah, I was in tears telling my parents this because I'm like, can you believe that, first of all, that the Apostles know my name, and second of all, that they took the time. You know, obviously, it's a he said, she said thing, so I can't verify for sure that they said this, but. But I feel pretty confident in saying that, you know, this message that I got was. Was authentic and was real. And so I'm getting this message where. Where. Oh, my gosh, I. I did it. I followed the rules. I did what was right. I followed my heart. And I've helped the. The people that I've wanted to help. And I think the best part of coming out for me, me is that I didn't know there was such a large community that was waiting for me with open arms, that there were so many people ready to love me. And I think that's one of the things that's. That's too bad, as we talk about wanting to silence LGBTQ voices at byu is when is there's power and community in knowing that we're not alone, and there's safety in that. And, you know, I got invited to speak at the Utah Pride center, and I remember feeling so overwhelmed when, you know, people who were ex Mormon as well as, like, fully active Mormon were just there to embrace me and love me. And, you know, I got to march in the D.C. pride parade, and the whole time, I'm just crying because I could never have believed that thousands of people would be cheering for Me because I was gay. You know, if anything, the image in my head would have been the opposite, you know, and so just knowing that my greatest fears didn't have to be a fear anymore, that it was replaced with just so much hope and so much love, I thought, gosh, every queer BYU student, every queer Mormon kid, every LGBTQ kid in general deserves to have this feeling and should know that this feeling is available to us and it's out there. And that people like you and, you know, other communities everywhere are ready to support and love us was just the greatest feeling in the world.

John Dehlin [02:19:56] And it's almost like. It almost feels like the church never wants to, like, allow itself to have a great moment. It always wants to, like, destroy the good moment. Because I remember thinking, in 2019, maybe you do too. Like, wow, well played, LDS Church. You picked a valedictorian who was gay. You didn't negate his wonderful talk. And then you got a great media sort of of aftermath where everybody was saying, Whoa, that's cool. BYU's broken a barrier. And wow. And after. This is after, of course, the November 15th policy gets rescinded.

Kyle Ashworth [02:20:31] I was just going to say that April 2019 is when that policy was rescinded. So the church already was. They had a lot of capital bank there in terms of their favorability towards the LGBTQ community in terms of messaging. And then I saw the same thing. Here was this valedictorian who made a great speech, and then, then the church picks up great political capital in the court of public opinion with Matt's story being shared on all of these news networks.

Matt Easton [02:20:57] And I thought, what's bigger than Ellen?

Kyle Ashworth [02:20:58] This is a golden moment for lgbtq, lds, Mormonism.

John Dehlin [02:21:03] It's like, whoa, maybe we're having a new era of openness and of progressivity.

Matt Easton [02:21:08] Right.

John Dehlin [02:21:08] Or whatever.

Kyle Ashworth [02:21:08] But interestingly enough, the people in the comment section says, but this is just mixed messaging again. They already know where the story is going. This is the mixed messaging back and forth between. Between the experience and the church.

Life After Coming Out and the Church

John Dehlin [02:21:19] So I want to hear what happened in those two years. And I also just want to jump to Holland's talk.

Matt Easton [02:21:23] I know, right?

John Dehlin [02:21:23] So whatever you want to say about those two years between your talk and Holland. I guess Covid happened.

Matt Easton [02:21:29] Yeah, Covid happened. Yeah. To be honest, after that, I ended up going working on a political campaign, which was a great experience. During that time, I was working seven days a week, you know, 90 hour work weeks. And so it was intense, but it also gave me a chance to step away from active church membership. For a little bit, and I think that was really healthy for me. I needed a little bit of a break. And then obviously, when Covid happened, I moved back home with my parents and couldn't attend church in person. And so during that time is when I feel like I finally started to face some of those questions about my faith and started to go through a real faith transition where I felt I was comfortable enough in my sexuality and who I am that I started to ask myself some of those hard questions. I revisited the CES letter and also took a look at a lot of Mormon apologist websites and tried to see what I really believed. And to be honest, I'm still kind of going through that process. I think we say transition because it doesn't just happen overnight. It's a process process. But. But I did receive a confirmation for myself that. That God is happy with who I am, that. That God made me the way I am for a reason, and that reason is. Is to be me.

Kyle Ashworth [02:22:51] So.

Matt Easton [02:22:51] Yeah, so that was kind of during my two years experience. Yeah, during that time, I still felt a lot of shame about being open about what I was doing, namely about, you know, dating men. Men. The reason why is, is I did feel a lot of pressure because I felt like, in some ways, a lot of LDS people and very faithful members would look at me and say, we love your gay identity. We love that you want to paint your nails and that you like Ariana Grande, and we want to support you through all of that. And we are also so happy that you are a faithful, active member and that you're showing to kids that they can be. That they can be. Be proud and Mormon and gay. And. And so I'm getting these messages and I feel this pressure to keep up that image because people are looking at me as. As. As, you know, like a. As like a safety light. And. And if I expose myself as someone who is questioning and struggling with my own faith, I. I could do a lot of damage. And. And I. And I don't want to do that. So I felt like in some way,

John Dehlin [02:23:53] mistakes are so high.

Matt Easton [02:23:54] High, because the stakes are so high. Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:23:56] Yeah.

Matt Easton [02:23:57] And, you know, my family, my parents are still very active LDS members, and I love them and respect them. And so there's again, this sort of tension or needing to like, wanting to respect and love them. And so I still kind of hid those parts of myself away. So it's kind of crazy. Even after I came out, I still felt like, in some ways I was in the clock. So it actually was not until this year in February. My birthday's in February, where I got to a point, maybe it was quarantine, being stuck with my own thoughts all day, where I thought, you know, I've got to pull the band aid off. I am done hiding any parts of myself. I want to live authentically and openly, and if people in my life aren't going to accept that, then the sooner I know, the better, so that I can move on and find someone who will be accepted. So on my birthday, I sat my parents down and I said, mom and dad, I'm not sure if I'm LDS anymore. Maybe I am, maybe I'm not. I'm going through a faith transition. I don't know if I believe the Joseph Smith story anymore. And I just need you to love me. And if you're not gonna love me, I need you to tell me. And my parents are amazing. They said, matt, of course we love you. We're gonna love you no matter what. And they said, your journey is yours alone. My dad can't tell me what to believe or what not to believe, and he doesn't want to. You know, neither does my mom. And, you know, I'm so grateful that they told me that, and I'm so sad that I waited so long to be open and honest. But I understand why. I mean, it's so scary, but I feel incredibly lucky to have supportive family and to have siblings and parents and cousins who want me just to be me. And that's all I want to be, too.

Kyle Ashworth [02:25:43] And I think that's an important part. You had, really, a second opportunity at another coming out.

Matt Easton [02:25:48] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [02:25:49] And it was. It was beautiful in its simplicity.

John Dehlin [02:25:52] Some LGBT Mormons have told me that coming out as losing your faith, inexplicably, was actually harder for them than coming out as gay.

Matt Easton [02:26:03] Oh, 100% was my experience. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:26:06] It says a lot, doesn't it?

Matt Easton [02:26:09] Yeah. Where. Where I. I. I felt like I was letting more people down or that it was, you know, more condemning because being gay, I. I feel like at least the rhetoric that I've listened to over the past decade has really changed. You know, people are starting to understand that. That this is not something that we can electroshock away from us.

John Dehlin [02:26:28] Not a choice.

Matt Easton [02:26:28] Yeah, it's not a choice.

John Dehlin [02:26:29] It's not even a sin to have the feelings.

Matt Easton [02:26:31] Right. Right.

John Dehlin [02:26:32] By modern rhetoric.

Matt Easton [02:26:33] Yes. And that some bishops might even say, you know, it's okay for me to kiss boys and to go on dates with boys, but being faithful and staying in the church is a choice. And so that is where I think, at least in my experience, there's still sort of that pushback. And that's why saying that, you know, I've lost some of my faith is. Is just as hard, if not harder, than saying that I'm gay.

Kyle Ashworth [02:26:58] I think that's. That's super honest. And I think that's a discussion that I hope the Latter Day Saints who are listening to this episode can grasp onto, that there is a reality that I didn't choose my sexuality, but I could choose my religion. And when we get to that point, some of the healthiest people that I've seen in this space are those who are able to separate the gospel of Jesus Christ from Mormonism. And that's maybe a subsection of this topic. But I didn't choose to be gay, but I could choose to be Mormon. And which one brought me the most amount of happiness and which one was most authentic to me? To me, the one that I didn't choose, the one that was beautifully created and crafted for me. And so many gay or queer Latter Day Saints who are able to find that trans, especially our trans community, when you find that, that's where the growth happens, and that's where the beauty and the ability to finally shine, and sometimes to use Mormon vernacular, that's where we're able to. To fulfill the measure of our creation. That's where we're able to bloom and blossom the very finest.

Matt Easton [02:28:05] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:28:05] And what a better validation than to get into a PhD program at UC Berkeley.

Matt Easton [02:28:10] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:28:11] That's not a shabby political science program. I mean, it's one of the top in the country. Right?

Matt Easton [02:28:16] Thank you. Yeah. Yeah, it is. And it's exciting. You know, I also. I was so worried when I was applying to grad school because I hadn't fully come out yet, that I would be running away from something, that I would be running away from being honest with my family. I'd be running away from, you know, the Mormon corridor. But once I chose to be open and honest, I now feel like I'm running towards something instead. And it's exciting, it's fulfilling. And so being out in the Bay Area, you know, I'm excited to date, to meet other people, and to finally start exploring and crafting the life that I want to live. And, you know, the two years since I've come out have been extremely restorative for me, and I feel like my mental health has never been in a better place. Getting out of byu, I didn't realize as soon as I got my diploma, how much anxiety I had put on myself and how getting that diploma just released me from that. And so I've put in a lot of work with my therapist, with my community, with my family to feel better about myself. And I do, which is great. It really does get better. And so I think that's why this past week, when on Monday morning, I got this message about this talk where I'd been referenced.

John Dehlin [02:29:36] Tell us. Just take us through that kind of cinematically.

Jeffrey Holland's Speech Targeting LGBTQ Members

Matt Easton [02:29:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:29:40] Wake up.

Matt Easton [02:29:41] So I'm in California. I moved there the beginning of August. So kind of a new adjustment. I've been there a couple weeks.

John Dehlin [02:29:47] Weeks.

Matt Easton [02:29:47] And last week was the first week of my first year of my PhD program. So there's already a lot on my plate and on my mind. You know, I'm adjusting to classes and learning the area. And so I wake up Monday morning, and I get a message from one of my friends on Twitter that just says, oh, my gosh, Matt, I am so sorry about what was said today. I hope that you're in a place that it doesn't affect you anymore, but if it does, I'm here for you and I love you. And I was like, brett. What?

Kyle Ashworth [02:30:18] Where's Brett?

Matt Easton [02:30:20] Where's Brett? Well, I was like, what? Like. Like it. The last thing on my mind was something about me coming out. And so they mentioned there was some sort of devotional, which later I found out was like a speech towards the BYU faculty. And so I'm like, did they, like, call out gay people in general? Did they, you know, like, what's going on? And it wasn't until I'm reading the remarks by Elder Holland, and I get to the paragraph where he says, you know, if I want to read it,

John Dehlin [02:30:50] can I read it? Is that all right?

Matt Easton [02:30:52] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:30:52] Okay, so here is Elder Holland's talk where the part where he talks about Matt. Elder Holland says, if a student commandeers a graduation podium intended to represent everyone getting diplomas in order to announce his personal sexual orientation, what might another speaker feel free to announce the next year until eventually anything goes? What might commencement come to mean or not mean if we push individual license over institutional dignity for very long? Oh, that's gross. Ever. There's, like 15 words in there I want to. I want to dissect. But what's your reaction like?

Matt Easton [02:31:41] Yeah, I mean, I read those words, and so.

John Dehlin [02:31:44] Commandeer. Let's just pick a couple words. Commandeer. Let's do a rifle round. What do you think about that word?

Speaker D [02:31:50] Just a musket round.

Matt Easton [02:31:52] Oh, I mean, Yeah, it felt like a, like a gut punch, first of all. And second of all, I, I think thought it was such a gross mischaracterization. I mean, like we, we all know that Elder Holland is, is a brilliant rhetorician. I mean, you know, he went to Yale. Yeah, went to Yale. He got his, you know, English degree at byu. I got my English minor at byu. You know, like, like I, I know that he knows the impact of his words. And I thought commandeering. That sounds like, like I went off the rails and I said something that wasn't approved and I, and I made it all about myself and, and I was just crushed because I thought anyone, like people have told me that before, maybe not use the word commandeering, but everyone who said that I was selfish or I made it all about myself or I went off the rails without exception, none of them actually listened to the talk. And so I hear this and I thought, did he even hear what I said? Did he even ask the Dean's office of the College of Family Home and Social Sciences. I just thought he does not have the right information here and he has misinformation and he's still calling me out in front of all these faculty who I love and support and that I want to support me and getting a PhD. I want to go into academia. And so my second thought is, oh my gosh, are all these BYU professors that I'm co authoring with and I want to work with in the future, am I going to be a pariah to them now in just one single sense sentence? I felt like my reputation had been completely twisted.

John Dehlin [02:33:26] What about the power differential of a man, you know, for it's the Mormon church in, in 2021 is, is close to a trillion dollar organization. The First Presidency of the Quorum of the Twelve are literally viewed as mouthpieces of and for God and Jesus. Mormons believe they speak to God and Jesus and then just they, they have followers of anywhere. You know, let's just say 4 to 5 million people across the world and then all their power and money, it'd be like, you know, the President, United States, almost denouncing an individual. Like what, what was that like? Like the power differential.

Matt Easton [02:34:05] Yeah, it was. Well, it just felt like I was being punched down on by someone who has infinitely more, more power than I do, which makes it infinitely more hurtful, more painful. You know, it's one thing for my bishop to say something about me like that, but it's a whole nother thing to. For someone who's like, picture is hanging on the wall at my family's house, you know, someone that the people I care about raise their hand to the square and sustain. And so in this moment, my first feature is, oh my gosh, is my family going to have to choose between showing support for me and sustaining someone that they believe to be a prophet? And I thought, oh my gosh, this man, whether intentionally or not, with one single word, is pitting people against me, you know, and I'm not confident that they would choose me because they love their faith and they're taught to sustain unequivocally. Unequivocally, the, you know, the leaders of the church. So it's scary again. And suddenly I feel like, like someone, you know, is, is commandeering my experience. And, and he's dictating, you know, how people are going to react to me and, and how my relationships are going to be moving forward.

John Dehlin [02:35:30] Kyle. I mean, I, I felt like it was grossly inappropriate, 100% and abusive.

Kyle Ashworth [02:35:35] And I like the Matt, you're bringing up the fact that you felt as if Elder Holland was commandeering your experience. And I agree. We had that conversation when we sat down and discussed your valedictorian speech as opposed to what Holland was speaking of. And, and it was almost as if he was using, and you brought it up like he had misinformation and didn't fully. Perhaps he didn't even listen to your spirit speech. But we also contemplated, or wondered, hypothecated, whether or not he was using Matt as a way to get to the administration where he possibly was not able to do that in private channels, but in a very public setting was able to use Matt Easton as a bludgeon to say either. Yes, I acknowledge the Dean's office approved his speech, but let the record be clear, that'll never happen, happen ever again.

Speaker D [02:36:26] That's interesting.

Kyle Ashworth [02:36:27] And he brought that up, and I just saw that there were some correlations there. He, he, he opened that speech with I will go to my grave, and he closed that speech with I will go to my grave. Almost as if he had created a golden idol in byu, that he had created this, this idolization of the university. And it didn't matter who was crushed or who that university was founded upon, that idol must remain solid and golden. And Matt at that point was just a cobblestone in order to ensure that that idol did not fall over.

John Dehlin [02:37:00] How about grist for the mill?

Kyle Ashworth [02:37:01] Grist for the mill.

John Dehlin [02:37:02] And not just Matt. I mean, it's not just Matt, right?

Kyle Ashworth [02:37:04] It's the queer experiences of so many other BYU students.

John Dehlin [02:37:07] It is the past, present and future.

Kyle Ashworth [02:37:10] It is the affirming and allyship of faculty and staff and parents and family members and other tithe payers who very well know where their tithing dollars are going. And that is to support a community that has been marginalized by the very institution that it's using to profits. Golden idol. To me it was just mind boggling

Matt Easton [02:37:31] and irresponsible and hurtful and, and commandeering. Absolutely. And I think, you know, I can handle if people didn't like my speech or didn't think that it was the appropriate place, you know, and usually to them I say, okay, if you didn't think it was appropriate, you are more than welcome to become valedictorian and give your own speech. You know, like you are welcome to put in that work. But. But I put in that work and I said what I felt was right and I did it because I wanted to help queer students. And yet two years later, after I've done that, I felt like in one single blow, the action that I had made to help queer students was now being weaponized to hurt them. That sucks. It's a terrible feeling because I thought, have I just made it worse for them? You know, have I just made it harder for the next gay valedictorian? Have I just made it harder for the next queer kid who just needs to see a rainbow flag on campus so that they're not going to continue having suicidal thoughts? You know, that, that is antithetical to whatever agenda I had or whatever goal that I had. And that just hurts so, so deeply.

John Dehlin [02:38:41] Yeah. Because doesn't that send the message don't come out? I mean, what other message can a gay BYU student or don't label yourself,

Kyle Ashworth [02:38:50] don't inflict yourself with that type of there are no homosexuals in the church. It all leads to the same messaging which is destructive and unnecessary.

Matt Easton [02:39:00] Absolutely, absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:39:03] I'm so sorry that happened. So then there's the, then he goes on just that whole thing, the slippery slope argument that what are other people going to be announcing now and will it be anything goes? And what might just that use of kind of English rhetoric to say, what might commencement come to mean? Like what is he insinuating, he's stealing

Speaker D [02:39:25] it from pat Robertson? Whatever. 600 Club. What's it called?

John Dehlin [02:39:30] 700 Club.

Speaker D [02:39:30] 700 Club. Matt Robertson used to call it. What's next? Sex with ducks? Just like throw out whatever you want to say.

John Dehlin [02:39:37] No, I mean like really, what is like what he's choosing Those words. He's a smart guy. He chooses his words carefully. What is he envisioning there when he's saying, like, what's next?

Kyle Ashworth [02:39:48] I wonder if this conversation, the conversation we have around this topic is not about Matt and not about the lgbtq, LGBTQ community, but more about a discussion of control. Control. We've lost the left, we've lost the

John Dehlin [02:40:03] right meaning LDS church leaders, correct. At church headquarters, controlling.

Kyle Ashworth [02:40:08] Not the. Not only the LDS left, not only the LDS right. Not only LDS centric. It's the middle ground. But our faculty and our staff and our media and the very students who are academically surviving at byu. The church must look at this circular merry go round and say to themselves, we have fallen off a long time ago. How do we stop it? Or how do we get on? And which section of this merry go round do we attack first? And I think this is a situation of control, where the church has lost control with the myriad of different experiences that are happening. And just like you brought up earlier in the episode, Matt, all of the things that the church talked about and said about queer people, there is no happiness. There is. There are no spiritual experiences. There will be no success on this side of the aisle. Your lived experience proved that different. And that is the grand message that hurts Mormonism's message so much. And I think that's what most queer family members are seeing within Mormonism today, is that my son or daughter or non binary child's experience does not match the rhetoric or the teachings that have come from the church. And how do we decipher this dogmatic approach now? How do we decide what is truth? And most Latter Day Saint families are siding with their son or their daughter or their child. And that is the control that's being lost in Mormonism. And unfortunately, again, I think you were just a product of them lashing out to try to make that apparent. And I think that's what's sad. But the reality in this situation, yeah,

John Dehlin [02:41:46] I love that Kyle and I have a dear friend who will renew name, remain nameless, who made this analogy because he really loves BYU and he's still a member. And he compared it to the following. He said, it's kind of like the church is the Walt Disney Corporation and BYU is Disneyland. And there's nothing. You can have Disney movies, you can have Disney merchandise, but there's nothing that really reflects the Disney Corporation as much as the Disneyland experience. And BYU is the church's Disneyland. And if BYU is perceived to be kind of veering too much one way or the other, then the church risks a real damage to its flagship brand, you know, representation. And so what this represented was Elder Holland basically throwing you under the bus, throwing the LGBT community under the bus in an attempt to manage a brand that's kind of veering off course. But what a. You know, for a. For a leader that claims to represent Christ, who would give the parable of the lost sheep and say, leave the 99 to go protect the 1. It's kind of like he's taking what we all know to be the most marginalized, vulnerable population in Mormonism at this point and using them, sacrificing them, throwing them under the bus into the gristmund mill so that he can make some sort of brand management, you know, talking point sort of commencement speech to save the brand feels just so inappropriate. And I think it's violent.

Kyle Ashworth [02:43:28] I think the same Latter Day Saints who have questioned a lot of that we've discussed about in this episode are also one of the strong arguments they've come out with is, well, he was speaking to the faculty and the staff. This wasn't a general Mormonism issue. And I say using the Disneyland example metaphor, that is exactly what he needed to do. He needed to go to the characters that were out there on display, the Cinderellas, the Aladdins, the characters that were out on the streets. And he needed to ensure that those who were experiencing Disneyland, who were there to see the characters, knew where the characters. Characters stood. And we're using the characters to control the. The people who are visiting and people who are there to enjoy the experience. That makes sense.

John Dehlin [02:44:12] Yeah. And let's be clear, as he likes to say about himself, he's not a dodo. He knew that this was going to be released on YouTube. He knew this was going to be seen worldwide, and he knew what message he was sending, not just to BYU faculty and staff, but to LGBTQ kids, to BYU faculty, to LGBTQ parents of LGBTQ kids, to ward members and bishops. It's basically saying, be very afraid to be too supportive of LGBTQ kids or to be LGBTQ or to come out as lgbtq. And he knew. He knew he was doing that. And then to add to that, the. The musket rhetoric, the friendly fire rhetoric, and then calling BYU professors and faculty to pay pick up muskets in defense. It's just. And everybody says we're. We're misinterpreting them. We're giving a bad faith representation. I don't. I don't know. Am I? Why? What's your. I mean, what do you want to share, if anything, overall, of just your assessment of that talk?

Matt Easton [02:45:15] No. Yeah. I. I think I see a lot of my very faithful friends on social media saying, you're taking it out of context. You're looking at pieces. And to that, I said, say no. I read the entire speech. I've listened to it multiple times. We are.

John Dehlin [02:45:28] You've been to a pretty good school.

Matt Easton [02:45:29] Yeah.

Speaker D [02:45:32] You're reading comprehension a valve. Victorian levels.

Matt Easton [02:45:36] I mean, I hope so. Yeah. That the power of rhetoric is real and that. How are we not to interpret it this way is kind of blowing my mind. You know, when Elder Holland goes on later to say, there is no one who has wept more or has cried more or who is hurt and loves the LGBTQ community. To that I say, I don't know. I don't feel that love. If you have tears, look at my scars. You know, your pain is nothing compared to that of my community. And how dare you say in the same speech that you don't want us showing too much support. You don't want us speaking our truth in ways that are not against the gospel of Jesus Christ or the doctrines of the church, but then also say that you love us and that the world can be so cruel. Like, I'm sorry. My experience is that the world has embraced and has loved me. They're not the ones that have been cruel.

Kyle Ashworth [02:46:35] And I just want to bring up one point, because I ride along this discussion of tears. I sat up in bed the other night and I'm like, oh, my God. The beginning of his speech started with, I cry at the opening of grocery stores. I cry at the ribbon cutting. Used car dealerships, used car lots. And then he says, I've cried for the LGBTQ community. And I thought for the. Just that moment, it was so disingenuous to me because I love Elder Holland. There were so many. We both personally know the Hollands. There were so many moments there that I thought. Thought, that's so disingenuous. To boast about crying at a used car lot, the grand opening of a used car lot, and then to compare those same tears to the ones that will never bring back some of my friends who completed suicide to me was so disingenuous, and it was not the message that I would have expected from a special witness of Christ. The message that we've discussed here today. He knows what he's saying. And to me, that was just. It ripped. Something inside of me broke when I made that realization.

Matt Easton [02:47:44] I do also want to say. I do want to Address briefly. Some of the comments I've gotten is that, you know, people think that maybe Elder Holland was sent to give a strongly worded message against the LGBTQ community because he's so loved and he's so. Like, people perceive him as being more progressive or liberal or kind of. And believe it or not, a couple months ago, I think it was in June, I actually went on a date with a guy who's one of his good friends is a very open, active, gay member of the church, and he's very personal, like, close, personal friends with Elder Holland. And so this. This boy on my date is telling me, oh, yeah, actually, when you came out, my friend who's close with Elder Holland told me that Elder Holland was livid, that he was very upset that you came out that way, that he called me selfish, and that I was just making it all about myself. And so, I mean, just a couple months ago, I kind of through the grapevine got clued in that, like, oh, maybe Elder Holland doesn't like me so much. You know, that's a little weird. But then I just feel like when I heard this speech this week, it just reaffirmed that he's got some anger towards me. And I just want to tell him, you know, I'm part of your flock. I'm one of your sheep. You know, I've read all of your talks. I've grown up in your church, and you've never even met me, but you sort of have this anger towards me, like, a little bit upset. No, I'm just kidding. He's not. But it hurt. Yeah, it was mixed messaging again.

Kyle Ashworth [02:49:15] One of the great talks that I remember from Elder Holland was his just amplified and beautiful message of succor, suffering, and running toward someone. He says he talks about so often how the world, when they see someone in pain or peril, they run away from those people in their infirmities. But a true disciple of Christ, and Christ himself succors those people. He runs to them. And I parallel that with what he spoke of at byu. And that wasn't the Elder Holland suckering that I remember. That wasn't as a missionary, serving a mission and teaching investigators, that in the moments of your quiet despair and moments of being uncomfortable and when the liberty jail moment happens, when everyone else is abandoned in you, Christ will run toward you. I didn't see that this was an opportunity to run away. Literally, those words. Words were running away from Matt and asking others to run away. Just to me, it was. It was. It hurt. There was a lot of pain there.

Speaker D [02:50:23] Can I ask a question with that as well? Is that's a perfect way to put it that Christ to sucker. And it hurts to know that Holland had a choice of whose type of letter could you possibly read at byu? You could read a letter of somebody who suffered and ended their life over their life, like, you know, being part of the LGBTQ community. He could have read that, and he could have said, I want to make this a campus where we, you know, welcome these people. But he didn't. He read something from somebody who was probably a possible donor, and instead of running to sucker people who are on the margins, he ran to people who say, don't need quite as much suckering. So did that. Did between the tears that he cried over. Maybe we could call that performative since we're bringing in his own analogies of him crying over were. You know, use car lots. Did. Did that hurt to hear that he would say that he cried over something and then when he has an opportunity to say something to the staff over whose opinion matters a lot to him, it's somebody. Somebody's opinion who's telling you who not to associate, who not to advocate for. Instead of running to sucker people from the LGBTQ community, he did the exact opposite. It did that. How did that feel?

John Dehlin [02:51:40] Especially when we know that since 2008, there's been an epidemic of LGBTQ youth and adult suicide in Utah. Holland knows that it was on HBO and the movie Believer. It's been in all the news channels and reports, the trip and the desert

Kyle Ashworth [02:51:56] very question and do you believe the church is specifically responsible for. So during the. The November 2015 policy point, about 32 suicides that were documented specific to the November 2015 policy. And. And Oakes was asked specifically, do you bear any responsibility? He shrugged it and said, I would answer to a higher power. And that was his response to 30 lives that were lost with the completion of suicide.

Speaker D [02:52:24] Getting angry.

Kyle Ashworth [02:52:25] Yeah. That's the reality of why this discussion is super important and why words especially, especially from a special witness of Christ, matter. Because again, if we want to talk about control and we want to talk about audiences, you have the Mormon left, the Mormon right, the Mormon center, and the Mormon adjacent, who are all interested in seeing that people succeed and thrive. And this isn't thrive language.

Matt Easton [02:52:48] Yeah, absolutely. And I think, to answer your question, Kara, I was absolutely stung when I realized that that's the letter that he chose. Know I wrote a response to Elder Holland in the Salt Lake Tribune, which was published physically this morning, but I think Friday it was published electronically and I share that. You know, he's not the only one that's received letters and messages as well. And when I came out, I was inundated with hundreds of messages from queer struggling members of the church. I got a message from a young man who was a student at BYU Idaho, who, who had never come. I was the first person he came out to because he was so afraid that if he did that his roommates would react with violence. He was afraid of getting physically hurt for simply saying that he was gay. I got another letter from a trans woman on the east coast who said, who was contemplating suicide in that moment. She said, I really don't think there is a world in which I can be a trans woman and still exist in the live. You know, and, and, and when I compare these letters that I'm getting to one where someone says I'm, I'm hurt and confused that there are pride parades going on and rainbow colors.

John Dehlin [02:54:03] Too much support.

Matt Easton [02:54:04] Yeah. And I don't think I'm going to donate anymore. And I don't think my kids are going to go to your school anymore. I mean, sure, on its own that could be a concern for an institution, but, but it is nowhere near as important as saving lives. And then, you know, I mean, I did a simple Google search for the endowment of byu. I mean it's a billion dollar endowment, you know, is, is our donations really more important than lives? I hope not. But that's the message that I feel like I'm getting.

Speaker D [02:54:31] Right.

John Dehlin [02:54:32] Yeah.

Speaker D [02:54:34] So can I add one super important comment just to that? You're talking about the comments. You're getting so many I don't have time to read as many as I could. I'm going to start crying. Let's all just start crying right now because oh my gosh. I'm going to read the, this one. That said, after Holland speech, I had a few days where I experienced severe suicidal ideation again. Then I watched your speech, Matt, and it didn't give me a re. It did indeed give me a reason to keep going for another day. Thank you. So there's without question a lot of people suffering this week hearing these messages from somebody that again. But going back to. Is my family going to choose this religious leader's opinion of me over their own son or daughter or non binary individual or whatever. A lot of people I'm, I'm sure are going through that. And even something that you did that was small and important for you and the people at BYU that is still having these Beautiful ripple effects even to today that Holland can't touch.

Kyle Ashworth [02:55:32] So many people. So many people just want Matt to be safe and happy and so many want to know how are you coping with. With being the listening ear to all of these stories? Because you're a special person to be able to be in that situation to help them.

Matt Easton [02:55:49] Thank you. It's heavy, but I will gladly carry them. You know, I think that I'm just trying to be like Jesus. That's what I've been taught and I'll do that any day. And so I hope if anyone's listening who is still struggling, please reach out to me or to other people that you know, I will gladly listen.

John Dehlin [02:56:12] How do they reach you?

Matt Easton [02:56:12] Supportive. They can reach me on any of my social media platforms. Instagram is. Its Matty27. It's Matty27 on Twitter. I'm EastonMady. I don't have any videos on TikTok, but my TikTok is Matt's Potatoes, so you're welcome. It's a play on mashed potatoes. Anyway, yeah, reach out to me, please. I don't know if I can do a whole lot, but I will listen.

Faculty, Community, and Institutional Responses

John Dehlin [02:56:42] I was listening to the Radio west interview. It had Kendall Wilcox and Taylor Petrie. Taylor Petrie. And then this wonderful female of color, queer student at byu, who's a sophomore. She runs byuq, which is an organization for queer students at byu. And she told me the sad.

Matt Easton [02:57:05] She.

John Dehlin [02:57:05] She's sorry, I've never met her. And Kyle's looking up her name. I. I apologize. I don't remember her name. Check it out on Radio west if you can, so we can give her proper credit. But she. Okay, so just to back up a bit right now, I've had student. I've had teachers in public schools here in Utah reach out to me and say they've had a rainbow flag up in their. Their classrooms for a decade or more, just as a way to kind of show support. But that just this year for the first time. And her name is Maddie. Go ahead.

Kyle Ashworth [02:57:39] Maddie Hawes.

John Dehlin [02:57:39] Maddie Haas. So shout out to Maddie Haas. You did so great. Your work is so great. And your work on your, your comments on Radio west were really powerful to me, Maddie. But, but I, I have, I have teachers reaching out to me in K12 schools saying that just now in 2021, they're being asked to take down the rainbow flags because they're told by administration that they're viewed as being political now. And so then I heard Maddie talk about how prior to Holland's talk. She had a website for byuq and there's an Instagram page. I encourage people who are queer students of BYU to join this. She had a website. I don't even know the URL of the website. Maybe it's on that Radio west description as well, where she listed LGBTQ safe faculty. Right? BYUQ.org BYUQ.org okay, so she said that on BYUQ.org, she had a list of like 80 or 90 LGBTQ affirming faculty so that queer students at BYU could know who they could go to, who would be safe. She said that after Holland's talk, she took down that page for fear of those professors being targeted now, not to mention now because of Holland's talk about parades and demonstrations. Is it now? Are students going to be terrified to hold a rainbow umbrella, to wear rainbow colors, to wear a rainbow pin? Are faculty and staff going to be afraid to show a rainbow flag or a sticker? And this is going back to what you said about how I can imagine you feeling. Like, what happened? I thought I was doing good, and now the whiplash is things queer BYU students might even be worse off now, not because of you, but because of Holland's what I would say are irresponsible reactions. Is it now? Are BYU professors running? Are they running schemes?

Matt Easton [02:59:44] Scared?

John Dehlin [02:59:45] Are they going to have their continuing status denied if they're too LGBTQ affirming? Are rainbows off limits? Showing affirming support for LGBTQ students off limits? What does it mean to be too supportive of kids that literally want to end their lives? What does that now mean? Elder Holland, byu, can you please, with your new office of Whatever belong belonging, can you please make this really clear? Because the stakes now maybe are higher than ever. I don't even know if that was

Kyle Ashworth [03:00:19] a question, but that was nine of them. So pick which one you'd like, because then I have four more to follow up with.

Matt Easton [03:00:24] Oh, my gosh. Well, how. No, yeah, I just. I completely agree with what you're saying, and I think that it's disappointing. And I feel, personally, I mean, I haven't been at BYU for two years, but I didn't get that feeling on campus. I didn't get the feeling that having rainbow flags was an issue or that people are upset. I mean, I'm sure there's always gonna be someone who has a dissenting opinion, but overall, I just couldn't help but think there just feels like there's such a disconnect between these church leaders and these people who are dictating BYU policy and what's actually happening on the ground and how people really feel and what we really want. Want.

Kyle Ashworth [03:01:08] And I think that's the other part of the question that I am interested in. Last night, I saw that there was a experienced design professor that resigned his position at byu. And I think that brings up a valid conversation. And he said directly, as a result of Elder Holland's speech, I've resigned my position at BYU because I do not stand for this. This political rhetoric or the way we're harnessing and not allowing the civil rights of our LGBTQ community to be seen. And I think that brings up a valid conversation. And I am interested in what you have to say about this. Matt, being a former student of the university, by having an affirming ally who is faculty leave byu, does that provide a negative experience? Is that. Is there a negative ramification to him leaving or her leaving? Or in a show of solidarity, should more BYU faculty and staff members pack up and do what is right and let the consequences follow your perspective?

Matt Easton [03:02:20] It's tough. I think it can be a little bit of both. I mean, I know personally, I don't think it's as easy for professors to just pick up and leave their tenure and leave, leave, you know, their. Their. Because also, like, opportunities in academia are not easy to come by. It's not like there are just jobs readily available.

John Dehlin [03:02:36] Let's face it, BYU is not super always highly respected academically nowadays.

Matt Easton [03:02:41] Right, right, right. So. So I see that there can be some conflict there. And also, I really believe that queer kids are going to keep coming to byu. I mean, it's just going to happen like kids.

John Dehlin [03:02:54] Like a fifth of the campus.

Matt Easton [03:02:55] Yes, a fifth. I mean, it's not going to stop. And so if all the professors who are able to help leave, does that just make it worse for these queer students who are inevitably going to be there? I don't know. I do have to say I had one of my mentors at byu, a professor I'm very close with, who I've worked with, they actually left BYU as well. Not recently. They left maybe about a year or two ago. But in personal conversation, they said one of the deciding factors was because they felt like they couldn't be at a university with such discriminatory policies against LGBTQ people. And I talked with them on the phone this week. I called them immediately and they said, I'm so grateful I'm not a professor there right now, because this would just. The cognitive dissonance would be too great. And I've Had a lot of my professors and a lot of my mentors in several departments reach out to me personally this week and support some of them banded together. They. They donated $500 for me to go to, to get therapy, set up, a recurring. I mean, they really, their hearts are in the right place. They love us as students and they want us to succeed regardless of what our status is in the church. And. And I feel that, you know, and I hope that other students feel that as well. So. So I think that these poor professors are. Are caught in a really hard place where, you know, it's their morality versus their livelihood. It's a catch 22 in some ways. I guess I just feel for them. I don't know what I would do if I were them.

Kyle Ashworth [03:04:30] I think at the end of the day, it really is do what is right, let the consequence follow. And if we've learned anything from Mormonism, it is. I mean, the polarization that surrounds this topic comes because people are heeding to their personal revelation as opposed to policy or doctrine in a manual. And I think that's super important. So to that professor who resigned and to others who will likely follow in that procession, I say my hat is off and thank you for doing what is right. And to others, I hope that you understand that consequences will follow, whether that be for the better or for the worse, whether it is forced free agency or not, where some of those professors are dismissed because of their ally or they're able to still wave a banner at byu. Either way, I agree with you. I want to see in or out of the church, a student or someone adjacent to BYU happy and thriving.

John Dehlin [03:05:25] I'll just add John Larsen on Mormon stories earlier this week shared his perspective, which is how he felt like, you can't really be an ethical person and stay a BYU faculty member member because of the homophobia there. I respect John a lot. I respect that position. Isn't it also fair to give a shout out to the BYU professors who maybe at their own sacrifice or cost, decide to stay at BYU to be that safe haven or to be that affirming voice, either publicly or privately, for LGBT kids who feel like they don't

Kyle Ashworth [03:06:04] have any support and we know they need it?

John Dehlin [03:06:06] I mean, that shout out to them too. Like, maybe there's honor in both paths. Maybe there's no one right path.

Kyle Ashworth [03:06:12] Maybe.

John Dehlin [03:06:13] I don't know. I don't want to speak out of turn.

Kyle Ashworth [03:06:15] The old affirmation. A few years ago, Affirmations conference title was Many Paths, One Heart.

John Dehlin [03:06:21] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [03:06:22] And I think that is applicable in this situation, that there are many different paths to get to the end result. But the heart is in seeing people survive and thrive and that livability.

John Dehlin [03:06:34] Yeah.

Matt Easton [03:06:36] I'm wondering if for a second could we talk about kind of the timing of this speech. I think personally, for me, one of the things that really caught me off guard is why is this being brought up over two years after it happened? You know, if this really was such a big issue that I came out the way that I did and that BYU really shouldn't be supporting queer voices in this way, how come there was, you know, sharp reprimand? You know, the Doctrine and Covenants say reprove betimes with sharpness when moved upon the Holy Ghost. Why wait two years? And I'd love to hear what you think. But my personal perspective, I can't help but feel a little bit tokenized. I feel like my story, my experience brought a lot of good press to byu, sort of saying like, oh, byu, gay students can succeed there. There is a place for us queer students who are in high school who want to come to school. Maybe BYU is all right after all. And then as soon as that PR is kind of over, as soon as the good that can glean from it is gone, then they say how they really feel, sort of that whiplash. And it also reminds me in 2020 of the honor code policy change where, you know, for three and a half weeks, they let queer students think that it was now okay to date, that as long as we kept the law of chastity, we could kiss and be on hold hands. And there was so much good press around that and awesome conversations. Then as soon as that was over, they said, oh, actually, no, I can't help but see the parallels. And I can't help but feel tokenized and like it was disingenuous. But of course, I know I have my own bias. I don't know. I'm curious what both of you think.

Kyle Ashworth [03:08:16] Well, I think, I mean, back to our discussion about the Golden Calf or the idolization. I think the church has not only done a very good job at leveraging its real estate, but also its political capital. And I am in the camp that believes that you, Mormonism, especially in this space, likes a good weapon. Mormonism likes a martyr, and they like a weapon.

John Dehlin [03:08:39] It's just high demand. Religions do that. You have to have a weapon to rally the troops, to feel persecuted and to feel like you're fighting for a cause. So you have to have an enemy. You also have to have an enemy.

Kyle Ashworth [03:08:48] The boogeyman effect, where they create Matt or others like Matt as a boogeyman. You can't. You can't be this. Because there again, will be no happiness, no spiritual experiences, no success on this side of the aisle. They always create something to fear. And so now, seeing that there was positive capital that's coming out of a store immediately, Holland has to create a boogeyman and has to create fear around this topic. And again, this is why I believe that you are used as the bludgeon, used as this sharp stick tool to prevent or to deflate those balloons that were rising in terms of acceptability. And this isn't the first time we've heard Holland say this. In 2019, addressing the seminary and institute teachers, he comes out and says, my biggest fear and one of the most damning realities that we're seeing in Mormonism is that our Gen Z population is becoming affirming. They're blurring the lines between friendship and condoning in terms of the doctrine. And so he said, they all have LGBTQ friends. And that is a problem to Holland. And that's what he's telling the seminary and institute teachers is prepare for that and then find ways to combat that. So do we rip friendships apart at that point? Do we tell other Gen zers that they're not allowed to have LGBTQ folks friends? This is now the Mormonism that we remember in the 50s, 60s, 70s. You can't play with that family because they're not members of the church. You cannot associate with that family because they have a gay son or a gay daughter or a transgender child. That is the polarization that is so for a church that needs to combine and to bring its people together, why are we still creating. It's not. It's not necessarily us that's creating the divisive language, but that. That very statement to two separate groups of educators is creating division.

John Dehlin [03:10:35] Absolutely.

Speaker D [03:10:36] Can I read one comment? Somebody just said, maddie, you didn't even say anything against the LDS doctrine. All you said was that you were gay. Yet they saw that as a threat. And do you want to say anything toward to the. The heteronormative view of the afterlife and like celestial marriage is by labeling yourself as gay, I guess, at a church school, that that technically is a threat that they need to whack down? I don't know.

Matt Easton [03:11:01] Yeah, no. Which is crazy, because I can cite, you know, half a dozen articles, for example, Elder. Elder Ballard's talk where he says, you know, like, just saying that you are gay is okay. You can be a gay member of the church. You know, like, like, I agree what I said was not against any, any policy or doctrine of the church. And, and in fact, I specifically crafted my words to make sure that it, that it was, did not say anything that would go against it, which is just really disheartening, you know, and I hope that people who heard his speech and who heard mine are able to look at that and to see, you know, what is so divisive about my words that Elder Holland thinks, you know, that it could destroy the moral foundings of foundation of byu. I mean, I just, if, you know, if I ever get a chance to speak with him, I don't know if I will. I'd like to, can, I'd like to say, please can you point to the, to the divisiveness in, in my speech and, and how saying I'm gay is divisive? I, I only see it as inclusive.

Speaker D [03:11:59] Somebody else was saying in the comments that sounded like a faithful believing Mormon was saying earlier in the comments about how that you co opted the, the, the speech for your own agenda. You know, this, this boogeyman of like the LGBTQ agenda. This is its own religion, its own, you know, social justice justice camp of warriors, you know, and so at a church school, you have one agenda and that's God's agenda. And if you bring in these other ideologies, you are, you know, just punching Jesus in the face. I don't know what they would say, but like, you know what I mean? Just that, that, that general tone of like, you had your agenda and it's clear as day and how dare you use the pulpit that's paid for with, I don't know, again, Jesus money. I don't know. Just people being like that was so not the time, the place for the gay agenda to be brought, brought into our precious ear holes. You know, I'm sure you've heard that before. That's kind of. We've had quite a few active Mormons in the comments. I'm just trying to like, collect. I'm doing it poorly. But you know, the, you know, the general backlash that, Right, those kind of sentiments.

Matt Easton [03:13:09] I mean, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I don't if, if that's how they feel, I don't know how much I can change you. But, but I mean, I got all approved. You know, other true believing members of the church, like the dean's office approved this. They saw it was okay.

Speaker D [03:13:24] They've been co opted by the gay agenda, though.

John Dehlin [03:13:26] No, well, I mean, you think about that maybe Holland was sending a rebuke to your dean's office and to President Worthen and just basically saying, hey, maybe BYU approved it, but I, as the apostle, don't, don't and didn't and don't let this happen again. And he's announcing that as he's bringing in this new consultant adviser who's over pathways to kind of clean house. You get the sense that he's saying, well, maybe BYU approved it, but maybe that's part of the problem.

Kyle Ashworth [03:13:58] And we talked about this on earlier episode a couple days ago and I wonder if that is happening and this is just purely speculation, but even I, I believe it was Kevin Christensen who was the, the Commissioner of Church Education that was involved in what you just talked about earlier with the revision of the BYU honor code and coming out when there was the, the Kevin Utt and the, the battle between the commission's office, the CES office, that, that he's gone now too. So we have this whole purge, shifting of seats on the Titanic. And again, Elder Holland is the one saying, I'm not. I will go to my grave upholding the sanctity of byu. And all these other people are looking around saying, okay, we're going to take a lifeboat. Perhaps again a speculation, but I do see with this new office of belonging some of the previous positions that were filled during the November 2015 policy, the rescission point in April of 2019 perhaps, and we could even maybe look into the Dean's office and structure at the Dean's office at the same time as your speech happened. I just wonder how many seats were rearranged and how many positions just miraculously came available and were filled by new people in new responsibilities that have now become beholden to that ideology from the top down.

Matt Easton [03:15:19] It's kind of a scary thought.

Kyle Ashworth [03:15:20] Sure it is.

Matt Easton [03:15:21] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [03:15:21] But looking at it on paper, that's a reality.

Matt Easton [03:15:23] What's happening.

Kyle Ashworth [03:15:24] That is absolutely what's. We're seeing a rearrangement of photos on the wall in terms of new leaders that are responsible possible directly to the chairman and the members of the board, namely Russell M. Nelson as chairman of the board, first and second chairs or vice chairs Dallin H. Oaks and Henry B. Eyring. So that's, that's what's happening.

John Dehlin [03:15:46] I'm just sicken by the idea. Number one, the BYU students, lgbtq BYU students are not going to feel safe to come out and be authentic. They're going to be watching over their shoulder wondering if somebody, some desnat, you know, BYU student, conservative BYU student is going to be, like, harassing them or pouring water on their chalk drawing or like pulling down their flag if they, if they fly one or hazing them if they happen to wear a rainbow pin. Like, I'm sad and worried about all LGBTQ BYU students. I'm also sad and worried about LGBTQ affirming BYU faculty that are now going to be wondering, what if I'm too supportive? What if I'm too affirming? What if I show a flag? What if I put up a rainbow sticker? What if I'm too kind? What does it mean to be too kind or affirming to a kid who's struggling? That's just a horrible environment. And I think it's irresponsible of Elder Holland in the church to just let that lie there. There needs to be really clear, specific instruction. What. How loving are you allowed to be to LGBTQ BYU students?

Kyle Ashworth [03:16:52] And at the end of the day, when all of this energy is spent looking over your shoulder and looking in your rear view mirror, worried about who is chasing you or coming after you, the capital that is spent here and wasted is the education of these students who are supposed to go out and shine and do well and rise and shout. And that is inhibited by the energy being spent and wasted by people looking over their shoulders shoulder to determine whether or not they are being too kind, if they're throwing too many starfish back into the ocean, if they are doing the things that they personally feel convicted to do. It's sad because I think at the end of the day, it will be the students, both gay and straight, who suffer from a policy like this.

Matt Easton [03:17:34] Absolutely. Absolutely. It's heavy. It's sad. It's sad because I, I don't think that the problem that Elder Holland is identifying or that he feels it's not going to go away. I mean, just this week, I've had four BYU valedictorians who were valedictorian before me who said that they are part of the LGBTQ community. I've had one valedictorian since me who's told me that they're gay and there's gonna be more in the future. We're never going to go away. And it just, to me, I think by silencing our voices, by saying it's not okay, it's again, bringing in that isolation. It's saying, we want you to feel alone. We don't want you to see that there is a future for you or that there's an alternative path or even a path that still aligns but is just modified a little bit. And that's just heartbreaking because I've been in the place where I feel isolated and nobody deserves to be in that situation. Nobody, no matter. No matter if they're a member of the church or not. And that's just too bad that I feel like this is what the leaders want to have happen at byu.

Hope, Resources, and Closing Reflections

Kyle Ashworth [03:18:49] And I like that you said we've now it's Sunday, so we've completed a three hour block, so thank you for joining us.

Matt Easton [03:18:57] Yes. Oh, wow.

John Dehlin [03:19:00] What message of hope do you want to leave?

Kyle Ashworth [03:19:02] Yeah. And that's what I was like, what does the future look like now? What does the future look like for Matt? What does the future look like for us other BYU students? What does the future look like for that faculty and staff and Mormonism as a whole and in general, where do we look and what is the Nostradamus? Tell us what the future looks like.

John Dehlin [03:19:21] And what would you say to LGBTQ Mormons or LGBTQ BYU students when they might be feeling a little bit sad or scared right now? That whole thing. His question. Mine.

Matt Easton [03:19:31] Yeah, absolutely. I think to start. Start to say to the current queer BYU students, I just want to say I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry that this is going on and I'm sorry that you're being used as fodder for a culture war and one that you didn't ask to be a part of, but that we're being thrown into. I want those students to know that we see them and that we love them and that even if the worst thing that you think could happen if you get kicked out of byu, you're going to be okay. And there are people in places that will make sure that you will land on your feet. You are our family. We are your family. And we're going to make sure that you're okay. And we won't stop fighting until you are. I feel for them. I hope that they stay safe in the coming weeks and semesters and years and know that we don't blame them for staying at byu. I know there's so many reasons. I understand what that feels like. Like, and I just want to hold space for them. I think as a community, even after this week, as tough as it's been, I am really hopeful. You know, overwhelmingly, the messages I've gotten this week, a lot of them have come from very active members who are very supportive, who say, this is not the church that I belong to. This is not the Jesus that I worship. And I'm not going to stand for them. This, you know, I think that there is more solidarity than we realize and that we can feel and that maybe the church doesn't want us to think that it's there, but it is, whether they like it or not. And so many people are here to love us and to support us and that our future is bright. You know, byu, it may be tough right now where you're at, but you're going to get out of there one way or the other, you know, and you're going to have a successful career and a successful life and you're gonna find love. And I know that because I thought that I never was gonna find it either, but. But I am. You know, I'm in the process. I think we all are. And so I'm hopeful. I think that things are going to change. I don't know if they're changing fast enough for me to feel like it's worth my sacrifice to stick around. But I recognize and validate people who do feel that way. And I'm grateful for the ones who are, who are fighting for us, especially those active members who are heterosexual who, you know, maybe it would be easy for them not to listen or participate, but who are sticking out their necks for us. We see it and we feel it and we're grateful for it. And we need that. We need it.

Kyle Ashworth [03:22:07] So there are. I think maybe just we should probably mention some of the things aside from what you're doing in this space as well. Well, there are BYU organizations that are out there actively helping and. Excuse me. And trying to push this message forward. And I know BYU Pride, which is another organization, will be having their Back to School Pride march coming up on Saturday, Saturday the 4th. And I would highly encourage this audience and others to support that happening in Provo on Saturday, September 4, beginning at 3 o' clock and then going to 7. I know a lot of organizations are sponsoring and supporting that. This isn't the first little rally that they've had, which is just kind of a fun time in the park. BYUQ is another organization. Color the Campus is another organization that has worked diligently to share a little rainbow love to the BYU campus. And I think just speaking to what you just mentioned, Matt, this is going to be really difficult for Mormonism to hide the color in a religion that has done such a good job at being black and white and very little in the gray margins. The burst of color that is happening on these campuses throughout a variety of these activities is exactly what black and white needs. It is exactly what we talk about when we create a. An office of belonging focused on the marginal, helping the marginalization of people. There's nothing that says we're more marginalized than being just black or white. And I think the ability to share color is going to be super important for the longevity of a project like this and for the visibility of queer people throughout Mormonism and beyond.

Matt Easton [03:23:57] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [03:23:59] Yeah. I got, like, I love the message of hope. I got this sort of semi disturbing message that there are actually conservative BYU students who are camping out around the Y at night so that if any students try and light up the Y again with rainbow colors, they'll be there to stop it. But I, like, I don't think the rainbow is stopping. And I know that, that no matter what forces try and stop the beautiful plethora of colors from emerging at BYU, they are destined to fail.

Kyle Ashworth [03:24:34] I still have 2,000 more umbrellas. We're going to color that campus.

John Dehlin [03:24:37] Rainbow umbrellas.

Kyle Ashworth [03:24:38] Rainbow umbrellas.

Matt Easton [03:24:39] I love it.

Kyle Ashworth [03:24:40] And that was an initiative that we started because of the far right who said you need to shield yourself from the rainbow storm at BYU and, and, and buy a BYU bookstore umbrella and show that level of solidarity, solidarity around campus. And so in true fashion, we showed some color and ordered 2,000 rainbow umbrellas. And the campus is becoming more colorful because of that initiative. And it's just a minor opportunity to show the importance of being visible and showing that there are people out there, just as we mentioned earlier, that people like Matt do not need to feel alone or broken and that they need to know that their best days are ahead of head. And we can do that together.

John Dehlin [03:25:22] And Matt, you, you being who you are, giving the talk that you gave and now speaking out, what an amazing series of courageous actions to inspire and give hope to all of us. Thank you so much. And be willing to, like, it's no small deal to be at a sort of a ivy League equivalent PhD program. You freaking flew on a plane here in a really stressful week. I'm sure to be able to tell your story. I just. We can't thank you enough for all you are and all you've done.

Matt Easton [03:25:57] Thank you. I really appreciate that. And I'm so grateful for this platform that you guys have given me to share my story and my experience. And even if it helps just one person, that's enough. That's worth it to me. So thank you so much for all the work that you three are doing. Thank you to everyone who's listening and this isn't the end, it's only the beginning.

Kyle Ashworth [03:26:18] And I think we should note, like, by no minor stretch, we've had a tremendous audience that has paid attention to this episode.

John Dehlin [03:26:26] At least 15 between our two platforms. 15, 1600 people, constantly, continuously the whole stream. So shout out to them, Kara. In fact, you've got just some shout outs. You've been monitoring this. Do you want to share a couple of shout outs?

Speaker D [03:26:39] We've done quite a few live streams. This is the most super chats that we've received.

John Dehlin [03:26:43] What's a super chat?

Speaker D [03:26:44] A super chat is where somebody on YouTube can donate money to Mormon stories to keep this kind of content going. And I just want to encourage everyone listening that Matt's venmo is Matt Easton, 27, so please throw him some money. And so Soap and Clay donated $50 and said, Matt, thank you. Your voice helped countless LGBTQ youth struggling in the religion. And some old guy and his musket fire can never take that away from way. Thank you for your courage. From Jerem Thon, Logan d. Beck gave $170. Lauren Perry, who's part of EFT with Jesse Funk, said, I'm a proud apostate standing by my LGBTQ community, and I could. I could go on and on. There's probably at least two dozen different, different, just super chats that, that kind of come into my eyeballs, but an outrageous amount of support and love from the comments of people who want to thank you for just being brave enough to speak out in 2019 and then now taking all of these bullets, let's say so. Yeah. From me and all these comments. Yeah, seriously. Thank you, Matt, for coming out and speaking.

Matt Easton [03:27:56] Thank you so much. Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:27:57] So great. Yeah. And, you know, it's all sensitive to just talk about donations and support because, you know, well, we should mention some of the resources to BYU students who might feel like they're, you know, they. They don't have the support they need. Encircle House is one I want to make a shout out for if there's any BYU student in Provo who feels like they need a safe place to go. My dear friends Stephanie Sorensen Larsen and Jacob Dunford and the good folks at Encircle House. Encircles are great support. Any other support resources we want to mention in the. In the show notes.

Kyle Ashworth [03:28:34] And I also think, just in terms of mental health, I think there are a handful of suicide hotlines not only for the LGBTQ community, the LGB community, but also transgender community as well. The Trevor Project is also A friend and fan of our work with the Latter Gay Stories podcast. There is a community of people out there who are ready to support sometimes. Sometimes a distant phone number or a chat is similar to what Matt talked about. In a foreign country is a great way to connect with someone because they don't know you. On the flip side of that, sometimes someone close to you who understands and intimately can have empathy for your situation is important to you. So I encourage you to find resources. Affirmation is a great online community. The Latter Gay Stories community is super important, especially for parents. Parents who find out that they have a gay child and they don't know where to turn. And sometimes when we lose members of our community, it's because we lost a sense of community. We lose the inability to connect with other humans. And so I want to create a platform of connection. And as we talked about, BYU Pride, the rainbow connection, the USGA at BYU is super important for the monumental work that they're doing in the heart of the Lion's neighborhood. Dan in Circle as well there in the the Provo location.

John Dehlin [03:29:53] So good BYUQ and I just want to do a shout out to just good old BYU caps Counseling and Psychological Services. As far as I know, there's still a very safe, affirming place. They'll protect your anonymity and they're licensed psychologists with PhDs for the most part. And they'll give you the support you need if you're a BYU student needing support.

Kyle Ashworth [03:30:12] Flourish, counseling and therapy, symmetry solutions. Some of the these, these are professionals who understand who are members of this community as well. That can offer immense levels of empathy and understanding as you navigate this journey. And we, we want you, we need you. We need you to know that you're not alone, that you're not broken. And that just as Matt shared in his story, your best days are ahead.

John Dehlin [03:30:35] We'll have all those links in the

Speaker D [03:30:37] show Notes and for a church who loves spreading the gospel through storytelling, I think Matt, this is just a beautiful story. From the beginning of the way that you were raised and your dedication to the gospel, but coming to terms with your own sexuality, not fitting into this box that your family and culture has put you into and you growing from that and helping other people. This story. So many comments said this will be a pivotal moment. This interview, this story, Holland's talk. This is going to be a groundbreaking interview and you're here making history right now. And a beautiful comments of people saying that they're going to tell their kids about this one day. So this is A brave thing that, that you're able to step up and do this. And I know that you've, like I said, took some bullets for this, but like, the amount of response in the comments, I'm sure you'll go back and read and I'm sure people will DM you every day until you die. One day until you're an old man doing laps in a swimming pool, you'll be reading messages about the time that you gave that speech as valedictorian in 2019. So.

John Dehlin [03:31:37] And told your story.

Speaker D [03:31:38] And told your story here, man.

John Dehlin [03:31:39] Thank you, Matt.

Speaker D [03:31:40] It's going to have such wide, beautiful ripple effects.

Matt Easton [03:31:43] I hope so. Thank you so much.

Kyle Ashworth [03:31:44] And we didn't bite.

Matt Easton [03:31:46] And you didn't bite. That's right.

John Dehlin [03:31:48] All right, well, Kyle, dude, thanks for joining me. I. I just. It wouldn't be complete without you here, so thank you.

Kyle Ashworth [03:31:56] Thanks, Ying.

John Dehlin [03:31:57] Yeah, that make me yang, I guess. And thanks for Latter Gay Stories podcast. It's a huge, huge, important part of our community.

Kyle Ashworth [03:32:06] I hope so. Yeah. And I hope just. Just to give people an opportunity to be exactly who they were created to be. And no shame, no fear, but just an honest look at the beautiful people. And unfortunately, some of those beautiful people that Mormonism is losing that are, as was said earlier, members of this chorus and choir. And we need you. We need all those voices.

John Dehlin [03:32:29] Yeah, we need. Needs you don't give up. It gets better.

Kyle Ashworth [03:32:33] It does.

John Dehlin [03:32:33] And Latter Gay Stories can be found where?

Kyle Ashworth [03:32:36] Online latter gay stories.org we're on all the platforms as well. Our video and audio episodes are available everywhere you catch your audio podcast video video episodes are available on our website, our YouTube channel, and our Facebook page. And if you want to help out our many ventures as well, laddergay Stories is our venture. And our monthly donors can subscribe on our website, lattergay stories.org and click the donate tab at the bottom of the page. And we would happily put your money to good use in a variety of different opportunities.

John Dehlin [03:33:09] I know you don't do it for the money.

Kyle Ashworth [03:33:10] Oh, no, I don't.

John Dehlin [03:33:12] But you need money to do it. I mean, that's how it works.

Kyle Ashworth [03:33:14] It allows us to build bigger and stronger bridges. The Rainbow Umbrella initiative came because of donations from our community. And. And we have a variety of. We have an outreach program as well where we're taking this message to small communities. The Vernon's, the Richfields, the Fairview. These small communities that don't have a queer presence. Those are things that we do with your donations to be able to bring A sense of community to Salt Lake Provo. These areas have a large population of LGBTQ people. But think about the small cities where you're the only one or two or three. Three. Or the parents of those gay children. That's what we use donations for, is to help reach those families. And I think that's a vital and important work, especially with our queer siblings and family members.

Speaker D [03:33:59] Yeah, those are some great resources. Can you mention Mama Dragons as well?

Kyle Ashworth [03:34:03] I know my page was like, you didn't say anything about Mama Dragons. Absolutely. Mama Dragons as well. Who invented the great warm hug for the LGBTQ people? And I have been a recipient of those hugs. Hugs. And those Mama Dragons tirelessly work. They fight as dragons. And there's. There's a father. A dad. Dad dragon. I think they call Dragon dads Dragon dads. Yeah. Drew Armstrong Strong would kill me if I didn't mention that. But both for mothers and fathers who are finding themselves in these experiences, not only as a support tool, I. I would mention that Mama Dragons just released a new program called PARACHUTE that is out there to help parents. Parents find a soft landing as their children come out and give them the tools and resources that are necessary to help them survive and thrive.

Matt Easton [03:34:50] I think if I could also just mention one other foundation I'm actually a part of. It's called the Out Foundation. It's put together by queer alumni from byu, and it's specifically for current LGBTQ students at byu. They have emergency funds in case you're kicked out of school or. Or you need to suddenly get a new roommate or something. They also have resources if you want to transfer schools, and they offer scholarships for current LGBT students. So definitely BYU students reach out to the out foundation, and they'll be able to help you out.

John Dehlin [03:35:21] Love it. All right, well, last but not least, Kara, thank you so much for being here on a Sunday. You do the time codes, you provide wisdom, you monitor the chats, you make sure our audio sounds good. Good. You're helping us up our game. And. And you're fun to have around too, to boot. Thank you so much for coming.

Speaker D [03:35:41] No sweat. Like, it's an honor. So excited. So thanks.

John Dehlin [03:35:45] All right, well, I think that's it. Anything else you want to say, Matt? You good?

Matt Easton [03:35:49] I'm good. Thank you so much.

John Dehlin [03:35:51] Let's go. Let's go have dinner, if you guys are able. If not, that's okay too. But on a Sunday? I mean. Yeah, Ab. Especially on a Sunday.

Kyle Ashworth [03:35:59] Taco Bell is a open.

John Dehlin [03:36:01] Thanks to all you listeners. We had an amazing group so thanks to everyone who watched or listened now or in the future. Thanks to everyone who chatted or commented or asked questions. Thanks to everyone who donates to make Mormon Stories podcast and the Open Stories foundation possible. We'll keep doing this for as long as we get your support. But most importantly, Matt, thanks to you for making the sacrifice to come here. And thanks to those who paid for your flight, frankly.

Matt Easton [03:36:27] Exactly.

John Dehlin [03:36:27] And your expenses to make it possible. But we just look up to you. So many other people do. And thanks to you, Matt, most of all.

Matt Easton [03:36:35] Thank you so much.

John Dehlin [03:36:36] All right, all right, everyone. We've got a lot of cool stuff coming up on Mormon Stories Podcast in the weeks, months and years ahead, so please stay tuned. Please share this with everyone you can. Please put this on all your social medias, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok makes short videos of it. Spread Matt's life, love. Spread his story wherever you can. If you know any lgbtq, BYU students, please send this to them to let them know there's hope. Please share it with friends and family. And you know, we just appreciate all your feedback and support. Email us@mormonstoriesgmail.com if you have feedback, commentories.org or on the YouTube channel. If you've got any feedback or comments, follow us on all the different platforms. Instagram, TikTok, Tok, Twitter, Facebook, YouTube, because that helps us in the algorithms and just keep supporting us. And as long as you do, we'll provide you with more content. You guys take care, have a great Sabbath, be good to each other, love each other, and we'll see you guys all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast and Latter Gay Stories.

Kyle Ashworth [03:37:39] And most importantly, it's stories like Matt's and yours that help us to continue writing our latter gay stories.

John Dehlin [03:37:45] All right, take care, everybody.

Matt Easton [03:37:47] See ya.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.