Introduction and Podcast Overview

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Mormon Transitions is a production of the Open Stories Foundation. All donations are tax deductible and help to keep the podcast alive and to sustain our Mormon Transitions Facebook support community. To support the podcast and to join the support community, become a monthly donor. Today@mormontransitions.org I had a talk that was kind of written, and then I shared it with Steve and I told him I was a little bit worried that it was too angry.

John Dehlin [00:00:28] So I rewrote it like two hours ago. But I saved the old slides so we can pull up some of the old slides if we need to. But I titled it what I've learned from 1530 years of Mormon Transitioning.

John Dehlin [00:00:45] As many of you know, I first sort of went through my faith crisis as a seminary teacher working for Microsoft in Seattle right around the time 911 happened. And I won't go too much into that story, but it's been a long journey from then to now, 15, 16 years.

Opening Remarks and Personal Reflections

John Dehlin [00:01:08] I wanted to begin, though, by telling you guys a little secret. And the secret is I really hate public speaking. I really do. There's so much I dislike about it. It's stressful. It's really stressful to try and sit and think, how do I be interesting? These people have listened to possibly hundreds of hours of my voice. I hear some people actually use my podcast to help them go to sleep at night.

John Dehlin [00:01:35] That's really intimidating. How do you be thoughtful? I always forget people's names, and so I'm like, oh my gosh, I've got to see 120 people and I'm going to forget names and that's going to be embarrassing. I don't always love to travel.

John Dehlin [00:01:51] I honestly, just in full disclosure, I believe there's a lot of people who are more interesting or intelligent or even worthy of being in front of you than me. I feel that every single time. And honestly, I've talked about this before, but I really have internalized some of the lessons of Mormonism, one being sort of the risks of a cult of personality. And I swear to you, I don't take that lightly. That a crowd might gather and that people might express interest in wanting to hear what I might say.

John Dehlin [00:02:26] And all that's just really uncomfortable for me. So I guess it's fair to ask, why am I here? The first thing that comes to mind are so many pioneers that have come before us that I kind of just want to honor. This is primarily a post Mormon gathering, and this is just a small list of some of the people who really influenced me over the years. In terms of being pioneers, BH Roberts is an honorary member of my Post Mormon hall of Fame. Maybe if he had had a few more years, he would have ended up a little bit like us. But all these people have meant so much to me.

John Dehlin [00:03:07] I actually put Steve and Chris up there and Steve made me take their name off. So just to let you know what type of person Steve is, why are these people heroes? To me, they've exhibited incredible acts of courage and dedication.

John Dehlin [00:03:24] It's hard to be a Post Mormon in 2015, but imagine being Sandra Tanner or Fawn brody in the 1940s, or Sandra Tanner in the late 1950s, or Gerald Tanner or Bob McHugh or Richard Packham in the 80s. And there are people here who were actually influential in some of my earliest times back at Microsoft and trying to figure out where to go. But these people have made incredible sacrifices along the way. They have had a dogged commitment to truth and to alleviating the suffering of their fellow Mormons. And honestly, we have to give them credit. They got it.

John Dehlin [00:04:07] This is a point of view, but from my point of view, I feel like they kind of got it right long before many of us did. And so they're part of why I'm here. And I have to admit that I'm very aware and quite self conscious about the fact that I'm very late to this party, so to speak. Is this a party?

John Dehlin [00:04:33] In my attempts to kind of straddle that middle way to reach as many people as I could, to try and build a bridge between sort of irreconcilable sides. I have to be honest that sometimes I've been disrespectful and I've spoken ill of post Mormons and ex Mormons, and it's been a real learning process for me. And it's really humbling to be on the other side of that now and to be facing you all, knowing that many of you probably maybe felt some pretty angry things towards me at one point or another, maybe still do. And I want you to know that I'm conscious of that and I don't take it lightly.

John Dehlin [00:05:18] And these are the types of things that I struggle with. So the main reason I'm here is because Steve asked me to be here. But also I'm here because I believe that healthy community is the answer to so many of the ills that beset transitioning Mormons.

John Dehlin [00:05:38] Communities can lead to healing, to growth, to role models, tips and tricks on how to navigate. Just simply validating your perspective, feeling like you're not alone. Feeling like you're crazy. There's so much that's important about communities. And as far as I know, the Utah Valley post Mormon community is one of the strongest, if not the strongest, most thriving communities, Mormon themed communities sort of in the world. Is that what you guys experience as well?

John Dehlin [00:06:15] Not to discourage any other communities. There's so many good ones. I'm so thrilled with Mormon spectrum and how it's showing over 150 or close to 150, 120 communities. There are many more out there that are thriving and I want to. I want. One of the things I want to do over the next 30, 35 years, if life allows me, is to help build communities like this one and to help them grow. And so I'm here to help.

John Dehlin [00:06:45] And the best way I know to build community is. Is to have music time. So we're going to begin. We're going to invoke the spirit. And when I say spirit, whatever spirit you would like to invoke the spirits. Not on campus, as I understand it, but there's probably a party afterwards. Is that right?

John Dehlin [00:07:08] But I. This is. This is what I've never sung in a sort of a transitioning Mormon group before, but I want you to. You know, for those of you who are triggered by Mormon hymns, you don't have to sing. If you need to go get a drink of water, use the restroom, I'll understand.

John Dehlin [00:07:26] But I really like the words of this hymn. Oh, say what is truth? And I think it'd be really fun if we sang it. Is anybody willing to go along? Do you guys know the hymn the Melody Built?

John Dehlin [00:07:44] All right, so do I have to sing the first verse or. No, we'll just sing it. We'll sing it together. We'll sing it together.

Guest [00:07:52] All right.

John Dehlin [00:07:53] And those of you who don't know the melody can catch with the second verse, but pay attention to the lyrics because I like them. Are you ready? Oh, let's see. O, you ready?

Guest [00:08:05] O, say, what is truth? Tis the fairest gem that the richest of worlds can produced, and priceless the value of truth will be when the crown on our costliest diadem is counted but dross and refused.

John Dehlin [00:08:31] All right, second verse. Louder.

Guest [00:08:35] Yes. Say, what is truth? Tis the brightest price to which mortals or gods can aspire. Go search in the depths where it glittering lies, or ascending pursuit to the lofty of skies. Tis a name for the noble blessed desire.

John Dehlin [00:09:02] Who wants to bet that this was a drinking song before? Was it? Imagine having your little. All right. Third verse. Ready?

Guest [00:09:11] The scepter may fall from the despot's grasp when the winds of stern justice he copes but the pillar of truth will endure to the last and its firm wounded bulwarks of standard blast and the wreck of the fell tyrant's hold.

John Dehlin [00:09:38] You liking the lyrics? All right, one more, one more. Oh, let's do it.

Guest [00:09:45] There. Say what is true Tis the last and the first for the limits of time it stands o' er though the heavens depart and the earth's fountains burst Truth, the son of existence Will weather the worst eternal unchanged evermore. All right,

John Dehlin [00:10:23] We don't have to. My microphone fell. I wonder why we don't have to abandon music in our gatherings. All right, so I just have a few really brief disclaimers before I jump in. Anybody seen the movie Kubare? Who's not seen the movie Kumari? Who will promise to see the movie Kumari? All right, very briefly, I think one of the things we've learned is that there's a real risk to denying your own inner light and your own inner conscience and sort of outsourcing that to a higher external authority.

Lessons from Years of Helping People Transition

John Dehlin [00:11:07] And as a therapist, you would think that I would graduate after six years of formal graduate school training with sort of this attitude that, yeah, I know how to fix people and I can help fix them. And I've got all this wisdom. And after six years and probably well over a thousand hours of clinical contact with people, I believe more strongly than ever that my job, that. Your job, that all of our jobs is to learn to listen to our own conscience, our own wisdom, our own inner guide. And so I'm not here to be your guru.

John Dehlin [00:11:40] I don't want to be sort of revered or respected in that way. I don't even think that I have much to teach, but I can share some experiences. But what I want to nurture in everybody that I can is the nurturing of their own inner guide and source of wisdom.

John Dehlin [00:11:59] The only other thing I just want to say is that I'm going to be saying what my feelings are for today. These are my feelings. And, you know, someone made a joke once, I would argue with John if I could, if I could decide which of his multiple personalities to argue with.

John Dehlin [00:12:19] I know that I've changed quite a bit. And so I'm aware of that. And so I come to you with humility. Just saying that this is kind of how I feel now. I can change, you can change, and hopefully we're all changing. I think we can sort of look at that as A good thing. Is my mom here yet?

John Dehlin [00:12:38] My mom is going to come today. Oh, hey, Mom. Stand up, Mom. I want everyone to give you a round of applause. That's my mom. It's good to see you, mom. Strange meeting you in a place like this.

John Dehlin [00:12:59] So I wanted to begin by sort of maybe trying to just talk about what I've learned through the transitions that I've experienced. And I want to sort of model when people ask me how do I deal with family members and friends who are still believing.

John Dehlin [00:13:18] I guess I want to try and model that a bit because honestly, you come across as more credible. I believe when you're willing to acknowledge both the good and bad of anything, you're sort of seeking to provide feedback on.

John Dehlin [00:13:33] And so as triggers it may be for some people, or maybe not, I want to begin by just acknowledging and maybe telling a few brief stories of how beautiful Mormonism has been for me. There's just a couple stories that came to mind. I can remember a really trying time as a kid when this was after my parents had told me that they were getting divorced.

John Dehlin [00:14:01] This was after, you know, my father wasn't allowed to ordain me. I think it was to the office of deacon. Our family experienced quite a bit of sort of discomfort. And I think my dad experienced a lot of sort of shame for kind of what he went through. And a lot of us just sort of shell shocked about how can we sit and sing families that can be together forever when my family's kind of blown apart. And I can remember a time when I was feeling particularly low and a member of my ward who is sort of young men's leader pulls me just into his office in his home.

John Dehlin [00:14:41] His name is Warren Prince. Just as a funny little aside, I remember when Warren told us a story once about he was the shortest of all his brothers. He had like 10 or 12 siblings, and he was the shortest. And he was always frustrated that his older brothers and bigger brothers could beat him at arm wrestling. And I remember him telling us how he used to lift weights and got really strong. And one day he decided that he was going to arm wrestle his big brother and beat him.

John Dehlin [00:15:09] And he was telling us this story to sort of teach us about the atonement. And when Christ bled from a report. And he told us the story of how he got down to arm wrestle, his brother put his arms up and they started arm wrestling. And even though his brother was much stronger, he had the internal will and the fortitude to really take him on. And he actually told us that he fought so hard during that arm wrestling match, that blood of came out of his chest. He bled from the pores of his chest.

John Dehlin [00:15:42] I haven't told that story in a long time, but that was. We were like, whoa, that's really cool. You're kind of like Jesus a little bit. But he pulled me into his office in all seriousness one day, and he said, hey, John, I know that you've been going through some really hard times right now, and I know that it's probably easy to get down. And I just want you to know that I see something really special in you.

John Dehlin [00:16:07] And even though you may be down, even though you may feel like your family's been dishonored, you're kind of a superstar in my eyes, and I really believe in you. And as a freshman in high school who was really insecure, that really meant a lot to me.

John Dehlin [00:16:24] And I really appreciate Warren Prince doing that for me. I remember another time after my mission, my buddy convinced me to do summer sales. And so we went to Kokomo, Indiana, to sell yellow page advertising for this yellow page company in Provo. And they had promised us lodging and everything when we arrived. And when we got there, there was nothing. And we had driven literally from Provo to Indiana and had nowhere to even stay and really no money as well. And I just remember just feeling so desperate, like, what am I going to do? And all I could think to do was open up the yellow pages and to call the local bishop.

John Dehlin [00:17:13] And sure enough, the bishop had me over, met his family. He took me in, allowed me to stay there in his home for two weeks. I slept in his daughter's bed. I was able to earn enough money to get back home. And I just remember how. I mean, it's kind of a crazy thing, right? I could have been a lunatic, but I just remember how much that meant to me at the time. That was something really special.

Finding Beauty and Meaning After Disillusionment

John Dehlin [00:17:38] One last thing that sort of came to my mind as I was thinking about this was an experience I had on my mission where I was sitting on a bus in a bus depot, and there was this huge, massive waste pile of garbage. Like, imagine a city block filled with garbage. And I remember seeing a dog, a pregnant dog with little puppies, rummaging through the garbage to try and find food.

John Dehlin [00:18:06] And I was really like, oh, that's so sad. The dog and the kid, the pups, and, oh, I hope they can find some food. And then I looked over and saw a pregnant Guatemalan woman next to the dogs, also rummaging for food for her and her children.

John Dehlin [00:18:23] And I don't list that as a happy experience. But I can tell you that as a 19, 20 year old kid who grew up with a lot of privilege, having that experience, to be able to travel to another place and get to know a different culture and a different group of people meant an incredible deal to me in helping give me perspective in life. And that's shaped a lot of how I've lived. And so I have a lot to be grateful for about the church.

John Dehlin [00:18:55] But I kind of like to compare. As I've tried to process my thinking about how I think about the church, I've started thinking about the church as sort of a loving and a nurturing, but kind of a strict parent.

John Dehlin [00:19:09] And what I mean by that is I feel like sort of oftentimes the church kind of gets us when we're vulnerable, when we're at our most sad, at our most desperate, maybe at our most broken, maybe when we're really young, maybe during times of great adversity. And basically the church and sort of when other people fail us and when other people let us down.

John Dehlin [00:19:37] What the church basically says is they say, come into my arms, I will hold you, I will nurture you. I will take care of you. If you're fearful, I'll help make you feel better. If you don't know how to live, I'll give you some rules to help guide and protect you. The rules are to keep you safe. And if you just trust us and follow these rules, you'll be happy. And you know what? It often works. It doesn't always work, but it often works. I'll give you identity. I'll tell you who you are. You're a righteous, glorious child of God. And your purpose is to save mankind.

John Dehlin [00:20:17] And your ultimate reward is to inherit the celestial kingdom where you will rule over other earths as a loving parent. Just like the church is presenting itself to you. And so we'll give you meaning and purpose and we'll tell you what your life should be about and how you should live it and what you should do.

John Dehlin [00:20:35] It sort of takes care of every possible hole inside your soul and makes you feel really safe and comfortable. And honestly, for me, maybe it was different for you, but for me, that felt really fantastic for a young boy whose family had just split apart and who was looking for something sort of firm to hold onto.

John Dehlin [00:20:59] But there's a bit of a rub. And the rub is, and the rub is that day that you actually discover that the parent, that that parent wasn't actually what it claimed to be that, to use the extended metaphor, the parent really wasn't your parent.

John Dehlin [00:21:23] And you kind of looked up to that institution and you kind of idolized it. And then you realize that the institution wasn't just sort of flawed, but in some cases, tragically flawed, and that all of this had been hidden from you.

John Dehlin [00:21:39] And it's incredibly devastating. And as a child, when that happens and your family falls apart and that church that you trusted falls apart, as you know, it's extremely disorienting. And how do you ever trust again? How do you trust individuals? How do you trust groups? How do you trust institutions?

John Dehlin [00:22:03] But more importantly, who am I when that happens? I had that identity. Now I don't know who I am. How do I live? What do I do? What's my purpose? What about the afterlife? What about the covenants and the commitments that I've made? I meant it when I made those covenants and commitments. And now people are expecting me to hold to them. But I kind of feel like I was sold a car under sort of false pretenses. I'm mixing metaphors a little bit.

John Dehlin [00:22:33] And so we're sort of at some point, like children, lost and confused, disoriented. Maybe not all of you have had this experience, but it's been mine. And so we're forced to sort of pick up the pieces, and all these pieces fall to the floor.

John Dehlin [00:22:50] And here's where I kind of. Because I looked at the questions beforehand and I saw some people, you know, I read through the questions you guys posted. Here's where sort of some of the things that I've learned maybe can sort of start kicking in.

John Dehlin [00:23:07] What do we do when our life falls apart? And how do we regroup? One of the things I've learned to be extremely valuable is to really embrace the process of understanding what just happened to you. And I had a professor at BYU, Dr. Bill Bradshaw, who once taught that writing is thinking. And I didn't understand what he meant at the time. I thought that you think about something and then you write it, and then you think about it some more, and then you write it. But he actually tried to convince us that it's in the actual writing that you begin processing more fully, more deeply, what you've been experiencing.

John Dehlin [00:23:49] And so if I had a little tip to give to people, something that I've learned is that. Is that we begin by processing our journeys and writing it down. We think about and we express what our feelings are. We're angry, we're frustrated, we're sad, we're tired, we're disoriented. We ask, how did it happen? How did I allow myself to be deceived? How did it lead to this? And there's something really important to learn there in understanding how it happened, so we won't let that sort of thing happen to us again.

John Dehlin [00:24:27] What were the positive things that I experienced and what were the negative things? Those are all really crucial. And one of the things that Mormon stories has tried to do is to give people a chance to actually express and share that story. And it's so validating when you maybe some of you had this experience where you felt like you were alone and you felt like you were the only one, but then you listen to that other person tell their story and it really sort of lit this spark inside of you. For the first time, I'm not alone. For the first time, someone gets me. For the first time, I relate.

John Dehlin [00:25:06] And what I'm saying is I hope that each of you have had the chance to either write down or orally record or even video your story and your narrative. And I encourage you to consider doing that. Sometimes it can take years to process this, and sometimes it's a roller coaster ride, but it's really worth doing and it's worth telling. And I encourage you, if you haven't told your story, to find people to tell it to.

John Dehlin [00:25:32] One of the biggest sort of unfortunate stereotypes of post Mormons or transitioning Mormons is that they're bitter or they're angry, or they can leave the church, but they can't leave it alone. And we all know how insulting those things are.

John Dehlin [00:25:47] And so as a therapist, I've had to sit with these people and try and help them put their lives back together. And probably the main approach that I take is for you to start becoming more contemplative about the holes that have developed inside of you, your identity. We talked about this, the meaning and purpose of your life.

John Dehlin [00:26:11] There's a whole lot of time and money that all of a sudden you have on your hands that you didn't have before. That's something really important. That's a really important resource you have at your disposal. How do I act? What's morality now? If there's not necessarily a God watching over me, if I'm not trying to keep that temple recommend, what's morality now? What about the afterlife? Is this the only life we get? Is spirituality even relevant anymore?

John Dehlin [00:26:37] How do I interact with family and friends? What if I've lost family and friends in this experience? And then what if I've lost my community. And again, we talked about these covenants. This can be extremely devastating to have all these holes interrupt inside your soul. And if any of you right now are sort of struggling with where you are in the process, if I were to recommend a path towards healing, what I would recommend is that as you're contemplating your individual stories, that you do an inventory of these holes that maybe have developed since your crisis of faith. And I would ask you to consider where might you be able to enhance your current situation?

John Dehlin [00:27:22] Where might you be able to start filling those holes? Because I would argue that the healing can come from filling those holes. And one of the things that I sort of am going to end with, but I'm going to say it now as you're struggling to deal and interact with family members and friends and loved ones and former missionary companions who see you as a bad person, who are scared about you, who are judging you, who view you as a disappointment, one of the most powerful witnesses, testimonies that you can offer is a big, bright, beautiful, amazing, fulfilling, rewarding life. And that comes. Thank you.

Guest [00:28:15] And

John Dehlin [00:28:18] that's when this big, huge, bitter lemon can start becoming lemonade. Because it's always unfortunate to sort of have to gut a beautiful building that sort of deteriorated. I was at the Salt Lake Unitarian Universalist Church just a few weeks ago, and it's a very old building. It's one of Salt Lake's oldest churches, and it's been restored now. And I can't tell you, even if you don't like attending churches, go to that church and go inside. It's a beautiful building, and it's been renovated. And some of the most beautiful buildings I've ever been in are buildings that have been renovated. And I want to communicate to you this idea that as awful, as much of a stinking pile of feces that this experience, how many of you feel like it still is a stinking pile of feces?

Turning Loss into Growth After Leaving

John Dehlin [00:29:10] How many of you still feel that way? Okay, I'm telling you that this lemon can become lemonade. And the way it becomes lemonade is by looking at these holes as opportunities. You had an identity, but what is your identity now? What are you going to stand for now? Right? You had a meaning and purpose that was handed to you that maybe never felt quite right. And all of a sudden you've been given this huge gift of 10 years or 20 years or 40 years, or for some of you, possibly 60 or 70 or 80 years of your life has now just been handed to you on a silver platter.

John Dehlin [00:29:51] And you get to decide for yourself what life you want to make with the time that you have left on this earth. That is an amazing gift, my friends. As you all know, the opportunity to use your tithing dollars in more meaningful ways is an incredibly rewarding opportunity.

John Dehlin [00:30:10] What Margi and I did first, we started giving the charities that we actually supported. There's one called the Smile Train where you give money and they guarantee you that a large percentage of the money goes directly towards surgery to repair, collect pallets of children in third world countries. And you know that when you give, you know, $500 that you are giving a kid sort of a reconstructed face and a whole new opportunity in their life. We've given to Heifer, we've given to water.org and one of the most beautiful, powerful things that I've experienced, it runs counter to what the scriptures say. So beware of people who call good evil and evil good.

John Dehlin [00:30:49] Well, I'm about to do that. Okay. The New Testament says never let someone know when you've given them something charitably. But I'll tell you that when we've discovered a sister or a sibling or a daughter in law or. Actually I'm not married yet, so I mean, my kids aren't married yet, so a sibling or a neighbor or a loved one who's struggling financially and to be able to say, I used to give this $500 to the church, but now I'm going to give it to you so that you can make that car payment or make that house payment or pay that medical bill.

John Dehlin [00:31:25] It's an amazingly incredible experience that bonds you to them, hopefully, if they're grateful and if they're not resentful. Sometimes giving can breed resentment. But under the right circumstances, it's an incredibly meaningful thing to give that personal gift to somebody in a way where you know how it's going to be used and you know that you can trust the person or the organization you're giving it to, what a huge blessing and gift that's been.

John Dehlin [00:31:51] I can just tell you myself that a few years ago I went through a personal sort of crisis where when things got really dark for me, I started questioning everything, not just the church, but Christ and God and even sort of my commitments to my wife and my kids, you know, at the expense of over sharing. That happened to me and it was a very dark time. And I remember traveling a lot and getting caught up in the excitement of all these people I were meeting and all the attention I was getting, getting and sort of saying maybe I wouldn't have married Margi if I hadn't joined this dang church, and maybe I would have had more fun in college.

John Dehlin [00:32:38] What did I miss out on anyway? And it took me to a really dark place where I was starting to question whether I wanted to remain married to Margi. And I made some mistakes along that path, to be fully honest. Some of you may know that and some of you may not. But what I'm telling you is as difficult and as excruciating as that was for me and my family, what I learned from that is something that I never got to learn as that 18 or 20 year old kid who never masturbated before marriage, as that kid who never tried alcohol. And to this day I still have it as that kid who tried to always be good and to always follow that rule, that list that people gave me.

John Dehlin [00:33:19] What I learned is the negative, direct negative consequences of my actions. What I learned is what happens when you hurt the loved ones who have treated you actually very well. And what I learned is that I could take that morality that had been given to me and I just sort of blindly accepted. And all of a sudden I was able to internalize that in a way that I never had actually done before.

John Dehlin [00:33:45] And I can tell you that to this day, I feel more honest, more moral. I feel like I have more of a sense of integrity and honesty than I've ever had in my life. And I feel like it's intrinsic and for me it's a huge gift and it's a blessing.

John Dehlin [00:34:02] I could go down the list and we'll talk about some of these later. But I just want to tell you, I just want to sell you on the idea that this is an amazing opportunity and so many bright things await you. If you can frame it in that way, I believe it's true.

John Dehlin [00:34:20] I've lived it. So tell your story is the next thing that I want to share. Some of you will know that I did some research for lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender Mormons. We studied over 1600 LGBT Mormons and former Mormons about their experiences. And there's so many cool findings from that study. It's been published. Probably nine scientific peer reviewed journal articles have come from my dissertation data.

John Dehlin [00:34:49] And one of the most exciting findings was to see how healing coming out is for LGBT individuals. Now they have to be careful. They have to do it when the resources are appropriate, when it's time safe for them to do so. But we measured all sorts of things from depression, from self esteem, from sexual identity distress, to just overall quality of life. And all of those factors were significantly more positive after the individual decided to come out authentically to their parents, to their siblings, to their loved ones. It's one of the most terrifying things sometimes you can imagine.

John Dehlin [00:35:30] There are all sorts of social negative consequences, especially within the Mormon context, for doing that. And lower rates of depression, lower rates of anxiety, lower rates of distress, and higher rates of self esteem and quality of life were all associated with that act. And so my job isn't to tell you all that you need to all come out in your various spheres for those of you who. Who haven't yet. But here's one more small example that I'll give you. And again, it's an LGBT example. How many of you saw the movie Milk?

John Dehlin [00:36:05] Okay, do you guys remember the scene where Harvey Milk is sort of leading this legislative sort of initiative in San Francisco? He's the gay mayor. I'm going to get all the facts wrong, but he's. I believe he was the mayor of San Francisco. Is that right?

John Dehlin [00:36:21] City councilman. And he's trying to lead an initiative. It's been a while. And they're down in the polls, and he's in this room with all these other mostly closeted gay men and lesbian women. And what he does is he picks up the telephone and he says, we're about to lose this battle. But you know what?

John Dehlin [00:36:44] When they know one of us, they vote for us on a margin of 3 to 1. And so what his challenge was was to say, come out when you're ready, when it's safe to do so, because that's what changes the hearts and the minds of our loved ones. When they know one of us. Now, maybe it's not always going to be a favorable response, obviously from our parents or from our siblings or from our ward members. I'm not promising universal positive responses here, but what I am saying is the more of us that come out, the more of us that share our stories, the more of us that are authentic from a heartfelt place, share our emotions and our experiences, and put our integrity and our credibility on the line and say, I've looked this over, I've studied it.

John Dehlin [00:37:38] This is not me wanting to have a free Sunday, although that's been awesome, right? This is not me wanting to drink a can of beer, although there's nothing wrong with that. What this is about is an intense study, and this is a moral decision on my part that's very deliberate, and I do with love and respect for you, but I do it because I want to be a healthy Happy, honest person. And this is where the evidence and the feelings have left me. And I'm telling you, bit by bit, person by person, as we become open and authentic with our stories, more and more people are going to, at a minimum, become empathetic of our experiences and sometimes even supportive.

John Dehlin [00:38:27] And sometimes we'll even be surprised that some of those loved ones who we never thought might join us where we are. They sometimes very much do. And I've lived in this business long enough to know that that's the case.

John Dehlin [00:38:42] It's not a business, but sometimes it's funny business. The next thing I want to say is, when I talk about meaning and purpose, right? There are many things that you can do. There are people who are able to just sort of leave their Mormon experience behind and never look back. And I think that if people can do that, I'm envious. That's super healthy in many instances. But there are a lot of people who just really don't have that option.

Navigating Relationships in an LDS World

John Dehlin [00:39:15] Maybe you live. Maybe all your friends and family are lds. Maybe you live in Utah. And sometimes, no matter where you live, sometimes it comes back to find you. And so one of the most important things that you can do to fill one of those really major holes inside of you is to create meaning and purpose from your actual crisis of faith. And that's exactly what I did the couple years at Microsoft before I moved to Logan. Why would I leave a job where I was making over $200,000 a year working with the top vice presidents in the company, stock options? Why would I voluntarily leave that company and come to Cache Valley and go back to graduate school for $10 an hour?

John Dehlin [00:40:01] Okay. Why would I do that? It's because I was incredibly depressed in my life. Work was going great, the money was fantastic, and I felt awful inside because I was sitting with this sadness and with this pain and with the suffering, with this confusion. And I have depression in my family. My father was depressed after his experiences for probably two decades. And so what I decided to do. And you're all sort of my therapy.

Guest [00:40:30] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:40:31] I decided to turn my experience into something meaningful for me, something exciting for me. And so what I said is, I'm gonna. I'm gonna. I'm gonna start a podcast. Too many people are struggling out there. I'm not just gonna solve this problem for me. I'm going to take as many people as I can with me on this journey, and maybe we'll be able to make the church work. And I think I made a really sincere, honest, devout, long standing effort of trying to make the church work. But maybe, And honestly, as strange as it may sound, if they had not excommunicated me, my family would still be active in the church today.

John Dehlin [00:41:13] That's how connected my heart and soul have been to Mormonism. But with the Mormon Stories enterprise, I made purpose and meaning out of my experience. And what I was able to do is to say, I'll see if I can help as many people as possible. And together we'll figure this out. And together we'll either make it work for forced to change the church, force the church to change, or we'll find out that the church won't change, that they will not want us to be a part of it, and they'll send us that clear message. But one way or the other, we're going to do this together and have as many people sort of become as informed and as awakened and as enlightened as was possible.

John Dehlin [00:42:02] And that's what Mormon Stories was all about. And I got my answer last year as to what the Church wanted. But I think that we played a small role in some of the positive steps that the Church has made over the past 10 years, I think, along with many other efforts, and you all were a part of that.

John Dehlin [00:42:22] But also think about postmormon.org, exmormon.org think about open Mormon, think about New Order Mormon, think about By Common Consent, Feminist Mormon Housewives, ordained women. Think about all the different organizations, Sunstone Dialogue, Mormon History Association, Jeremy Runnels, letter to CES Director, Mormon Faith Right. John Larsen, Mormon Expression, Infants on Thrones. How many courageous people said, I've got this hole in my gut and I'm going to make something significant and meaningful out of this sort of lemon that I've been given.

John Dehlin [00:43:04] And I want to tell you that creating community like has been done here in Utah Valley, like has been done in 120 different cities across the world. Actually, not quite, because some cities have multiple groups, but creating those resources, creating those communities. I testify to you with every fiber of my being, with 100% certainty that this type of initiative can bring you more joy, more satisfaction, more fulfillment, better friends, more authentic relationships, more meaning, more purpose, more energy, better health than any calling or experience that I ever had as a devout, believing Mormon. I really got off the rails there. But that's true. That's a testimony.

John Dehlin [00:43:58] Some of you asked for some tips for coexisting in an LDS world. I'll do this quickly. How many minutes? 10, 15. Really? Okay. All right. Many of you are Sort of. How many of you are struggling with how to communicate with family or friends?

John Dehlin [00:44:15] Pretty much everybody. Okay, so this slide had a less elegant title to it before I read it by Steve. But we face some sensitivities as transitioning or post Mormons. It's really strange to me how intolerant our environment is for us to engage in authentic self expression. Right. Even if we're respectful, even if we're fact based for so many of the people that we interact with, we're immediately dismissed as anti Mormon. Right. It's kind of the F word of our, of our group.

John Dehlin [00:45:04] We're saying, oh, you're so negative. You're, you know, obviously you can leave the church, but you can't leave it alone. And of course we're not allowed to leave quietly. Right. Like, you know, and this isn't my original thought, but the church, you know, we sometimes can't leave the church alone because the church and our family members and our friends won't leave us alone. Right. And we're looked down upon, we're labeled, we're belittled, we're shamed, we're marginalized, sometimes we're excommunicated.

Guest [00:45:33] Right.

John Dehlin [00:45:36] It's a really crazy thing when you then flip that around and you look at the fact that the LDS Church has 80,000 missionaries across the globe and those missionaries are going to people's homes and they're knocking on the doors and they're saying, can I share with you a message where if you peel back the layers, as good hearted as people are and as well intentioned as they are, it's fair to interpret their message as, you know, what we have is the truth, what we have is the fullness. And you need what we have. Because what you have isn't as good as what we have. I don't mean to belittle, but that's sort of the missionary mindset and that's kind of that idea.

John Dehlin [00:46:18] And these teachings at their very face value can be very critical of other religions, of non religious, of secular people, of LGBT individuals, of people of color, of women of science, and of people who really value evidence. And it's just such a crazy disparity between the intolerance for our simple, authentic self expression and how comfortable believing Mormons feel sharing their testimonies to the entire world. And so we're in a bit of a difficult and a hostile environment. And to put it really simply, it's just absolutely not fair. It's not a level playing field.

John Dehlin [00:46:58] And so a few suggestions for communicating with Believing loved ones. When you come out, and some of you are way down the road on this, far more experienced than me, but when you come out, do your best to come out respectfully, you're just going to have more credibility, really. And at the end of the day, you don't want to create sort of the opposite effect of what you want.

John Dehlin [00:47:26] And keep it classy and consider keeping it brief. And I'm going to tell you why some of us feel like we want to write that 20 page sort of exit letter and share it with all our family and friends.

John Dehlin [00:47:38] Anyone tried that? What percentage of the people that you shared it with do you think actually read the whole thing? Shout out a number.

Guest [00:47:47] 5.

John Dehlin [00:47:48] 5%. Anyone else tried it? I don't think any of them read. None. None? Yeah. Now, I just got through telling you how important it is to write out your story. So do the writing part. The question is, how much value is there in sending it? And as someone who studied a little bit about psychology, let me tell you sort of the philosophy behind keeping it a little bit brief.

John Dehlin [00:48:17] But before we talk about that, I just want to give you sort of an idea, and that's this. One of the healthiest things you can do is something that's extremely hard, which is, before you ever come out, do your best to sort of internalize and accept the fact that most that you tell do not want to know.

John Dehlin [00:48:42] They do not want to know. One of the most surprising things that I find is person after person who has been in their ward for five or 10 or 15 or 20 years. Maybe they've been elders, quorum president, maybe Relief Society president, maybe bishop, maybe mission president. Crazy amounts of time and commitment spent with these communities.

John Dehlin [00:49:03] And then when they actually tell their community that they've left the church, guess what they hear. Crickets. Right? These are people that we have served for possibly decades, and they have no interest in knowing the first reason why we've left.

John Dehlin [00:49:24] And that may seem awful, but I'm asking you to take the intentional psychological maneuver to accept that from the start, okay? Accept it. Most don't want to know. And that may seem terrible, it may seem foolish, ostrich head in the sand, but accept it, okay? Because that's the reality for most of the people that you're going to interact with. And we can talk about the reasons why. I think you probably know a lot of the reasons why. But if you have a hard time accepting that, then I want to ask you to consider an exercise which is to spend some time really trying to consider the Perspective of the people that you are trying to come out to and trying to get them to empathize with you.

John Dehlin [00:50:13] And what I would guess, what I would wager, and some are going to find this a little bit insulting or demeaning, what I would wager is that the people that have literally no interest in even hearing what you have to say, chances are a few of these things have happened to them. Number one is the church rescued them from a very, very dark time in their lives.

John Dehlin [00:50:37] Okay. I interviewed Juliana Villegas Haas on Mormon Stories and released that this week. She's this delightful mother of several children. She's of Congo descent. She was raised in Belgium. And she tells the story on Mormon Stories of how her mother was raised in the Belgian Congo as sort of royalty in a mixed race family.

John Dehlin [00:51:06] And then ultimately she moved to Belgium, got married, but got divorced, had a couple kids, got married again, had some more kids, got divorced and was raising these children. And she tells a story about how her mother was sitting there with her children in the house as they were asleep, and she's ready to go to the gas oven, turn on all the gas, fall asleep and kill the children and herself, when in some miraculous sort of experience, the Mormon missionaries come knocking on her door.

John Dehlin [00:51:45] Now, you know, obviously she joins the church, she raises her kids in the church. People are healthy and happy in many ways. Some of the kids stayed, some of them didn't. But the point is, I have people in my own family who can tell you very similar stories. Some of the people closest to me, when somebody sort of owes that level of debt or gratitude to an institution, they're not going to be very likely to let it go.

John Dehlin [00:52:14] And can you see how perspective taking can be a really important part of just saying, I'll let you have that, that brings you peace, that brings you joy. I'm not going to try and mess with that. Enjoy it. Maybe they're struggling with mental illness.

John Dehlin [00:52:30] Maybe they've had just amazingly positive experiences in their church experiences. And they, they haven't been one of the groups that have sort of really struggled. There are all sorts of reasons why. Maybe they feel like they've had a divine confirmation that they can't deny. Any of those reasons are possible. And I'm just saying respect that, respect that, because you want that respect for your situation. Why wouldn't you want to offer that model, that respect for them? I know it's hard. I know it's terrible to feel like you could cure cancer and you're still going to be a disappointment to Your parents.

John Dehlin [00:53:08] I know that that feels awful, right? But there are solutions for you that cannot disrupt your relationship with others, and that can maximize the chance that someday they'll come around. And so how might that happen? And here's the magic psychological secret sauce. Never, ever, ever try to force or convince anyone of anything.

Guest [00:53:39] Okay?

John Dehlin [00:53:40] That's it. That's beautiful. And if you're struggling with that idea, just think about how uncomfortable you are when a Jehovah's Witness or a Scientologist or somebody or a Mormon comes knocking on your door trying to convince you of something. If I were to bring one of you up right now and I were to start pushing on you. Right, pushing on you, what is your immediate reaction? It's going to be one of two things. I'm pushing on you. What's your reaction? Push back is reaction one. What's the other option?

Guest [00:54:15] Run away.

John Dehlin [00:54:16] Fight or flight? It's in our lizard brains, okay? It's in our limbic system. It's in our emotion brain. When you confront and challenge somebody, you actually create resistance or fear. You do not create love and a fraternal or a maternal bond that will last forever. You create enemies. You create people who are scared of you. You create people who will do anything to oppose the very thing that you try and stand for. So don't do it. Don't do it. Raise your arm to the square right now and say, I will not do it.

John Dehlin [00:54:53] Bow your head and say yes. Don't do that. I'm kidding. There's a saying that what you resist persists. That which you fight, you strengthen. Okay? So don't do it now. You will be judged as a disappointment and as a failure by the people you love. Okay, that is going to happen.

John Dehlin [00:55:19] By your missionary companions or your mission president or your mother, your father, your siblings, your children. It will happen. You know what my advice is? You're not going to like it. Accept it. There will be deaths. You will go through a mourning process.

John Dehlin [00:55:40] Your life won't ever be the same. And it's like the seasons. There will come a winter where the leaves fall off the trees and the sun gets dim and it gets cold and dark. The seasons are here to remind us of the pain and the difficulty that life sometimes affords us. But what's the happy message of the seasons?

Communicating with Believing Friends and Family

Guest [00:56:05] Right.

John Dehlin [00:56:06] Spring is right around the corner, followed by summer. And it is. I'm telling you it is. And what you do, if you've lost your parents, if you've lost your siblings, if you've lost your spouse, if you've lost your children, if you've lost friends or community members in terms of their esteem or their affection or their support, I'll tell you the answer.

John Dehlin [00:56:32] Build new relationships. Through communities like this, you can find soulmates, friends, new marriage partners. You can find people that you would trust more than your own brother or sister in these groups. These people will not only sort of respect who you are, they'll validate it. They'll be able to give you tips and tricks. They'll be able to help you as a fellow journeyer along the way.

John Dehlin [00:57:05] You can find them out there. And these will be. Remember those ward relationships that I just talked about where you could serve them for 20 years? And then when you go through some difficulty, you get the chirping crickets. Remember those people, right?

John Dehlin [00:57:20] That's not. These other people that I'm talking about. These other people can be there for you. They will be there for you. They will validate you. Their love won't be conditional if you. If you use your good judgment on picking friends and associates, they won't have conditional love for you. They won't be out to try and change you. You may be in a different place from them, and they'll be like, hey, I get it, man. I was there. I support you.

John Dehlin [00:57:45] They will be there for you. They will love you and support you. I can tell you, I know probably 10 or 15,000 of these sorts of people. There are many more out there, and they're there waiting for you. And it won't be the same. And there will still be sadness, and you'll still miss some of those relationships.

John Dehlin [00:58:04] But in some ways, the relationships can even be better, More deep, more riching, more fulfilling than you could have ever imagined. The next most important thing that you can do psychologically is let them come to you with the questions. I don't have to tell you what my son Winston does when we say, don't open that door, right? Don't open the door, right? When I say to you, don't think of a pink elephant, right? Don't think of a pink elephant. Don't do it.

John Dehlin [00:58:41] What happens in your mind? Try not to think of it. You think of it, right? One of the most powerful things you can do psychologically is, like, when they go, like what? You're leaving the church? You're like, yeah, but you know what? I'm fine. We're fine. We're happy.

John Dehlin [00:58:58] You be happy. We want you to be happy. We're good. We don't ever have to talk about this. And I'M not saying do that to kind of mess with their lives because I think that's the most respectful thing to do. But what I'm telling you also is that a natural side effect of that is that you hand back the steering wheel to their own life and you say, I respect your journey, live your life. I'm not here to change you.

John Dehlin [00:59:24] I just, I'm going to go live my happy life. And I almost probably rather not talk to you about it. But if you ever really want to talk about it, I guess I will. But you know, I think as long as you're happy, I want you to be happy. And I'm just telling you that does the opposite. Just remember when I was telling you about pushing people, right? When you do that, when you do that, it's just like, hey, you know what? It's okay. You know what the automatic response is, the human response over time, it's like, no, wait, I want to be there for you.

John Dehlin [00:59:54] You step back and they step forward. Not always, right? Again, it depends on the things that are sort of keeping them in their mindset. But many times that happens. And most importantly, if you have a spouse or a loved one who you want to at least become empathetic for you, this is the way to make that most likely most probable. In my experience, if you do start talking to them, lead with the positive again. It helps them feel like you're objective and not this stereotypical angry post Mormon person.

John Dehlin [01:00:34] Validate their own right to self determination, say, hey, look, I'm not here to influence you. We're happy. Validate that you want it, give it to them, let them know you're not there to change them. And then when you tell them your story, focus on your feelings. It's not about this happened or that happened or whatever with, with other things, right? People aren't converted to the church through doctrine or history. It's usually feelings, right? And so if you really want to touch them, if you really want to

Guest [01:01:09] move them,

John Dehlin [01:01:12] then just tell them your story and tell them how it felt and what it was like and how it hurt and why you felt frustrated. And as you tell them that story that's been sort of the same secret sauce behind Mormon stories, as people take the time to listen to the story, they get educated, they get informed, but also their heart gets moved.

John Dehlin [01:01:33] There's a saying that you can't reason someone out of a position that they arrived at emotionally and honestly. That's how we arrived, I believe, at our religious decisions. And so focus on your feelings and Your experiences? One of the craziest experiences I ever had.

John Dehlin [01:01:54] I had a neighbor whose brother was a listener of the podcast. And so I knew the neighbor, but the brother didn't want me to ever tell my neighbor brother that he listened. So for years and years I was friends with this neighbor. Knowing that his brother didn't believe anymore, he left the church. Well, one day, somehow the neighbor finds out that his brother left the church because he comes out and the neighbor finds out that I, you know, had known his brother this whole time. And so he comes to my house and he sits down and he says, john, I heard you know, about my brother and I heard you've been struggling with the church, like, tell me everything.

John Dehlin [01:02:36] And I'm like, You know, masonry, you know, just everything, right? Mountain males massacre blacks in the priesthood, women, feminism, all the whole deal, right? Thinking, oh, this is going to be this moment. I'll finally have a member of my ward who sort of is where I am and I can connect with them and relate, not feel so alone. And, oh, it's going to be wonderful, right? And after the conversation's done, he thanks me for the conversation, he leaves the house and then like two weeks later, he's called to give a talk in church and he stands up at the pulpit. Thankfully he doesn't mention my name, but he, you know, gives this incredibly mean spirited tirade about people who sow seeds of doubt in the hearts of others, who lead people astray, who don't have the fortitude to stand up for their faith, etc.

John Dehlin [01:03:35] Etc. Etc. And this is a guy that I had to live across the street from, you know, for the next like eight years, right? And the whole point of me telling you that story is sometimes they'll come to you saying that they want to know, but they, again, they often really don't want to know. And sometimes that conversation can go terribly, horribly, awfully wrong.

John Dehlin [01:03:58] And so one thing you might consider is instead of trying to have that conversation again, where you're going to feel pulled to try and convince them, right?

Guest [01:04:07] Right.

John Dehlin [01:04:08] What you do is you say, you know what? I've got a really good resource for you. Right? CES letter, MormonThink, the church's own essays. Right? There's a lot of things you can choose from, lots of books and friendly and not so friendly. And if they're really serious, right, they'll pursue those resources on their own. And if they have questions, they'll come ask you and then it'll be them again instigating their own journey instead of feeling like it's you trying to guide and shepherd and manipulate and control them.

John Dehlin [01:04:42] So something to consider. So the last thing that can be helpful is to try and discuss your narrative in sort of a story based way where you talk about it in terms of alleviating suffering. In my case, this is true.

John Dehlin [01:05:06] I feel like it's important to be open and honest because I see that there are a lot of people out there who are, who are being harmed by the church. The church may do a lot of good, but they also can harm people. There are many vulnerable groups who are struggling at the hands of the church.

John Dehlin [01:05:23] People of color, LGBT individuals, women intellectuals, scientists. And so if you frame it as something that you're trying to be an answer to, an answer to a problem, it can go really well. So those are just a few small tips that I have. I'm going to close with my testimony.

John Dehlin [01:05:43] I wanted to actually make this a transition so you couldn't read ahead. So try not to read ahead, but if you have to, that's fine. I want to get to your questions, but I want to end today by just sort of giving you my transitioned Mormon testimony. And I shouldn't call myself a transition Mormon because honestly, we're always changing. I'm changing, you're changing, we're all going to be changing. We're all going to be in different places five or ten or twenty years from now. And that's a good thing.

Personal Conclusions and Core Convictions

John Dehlin [01:06:13] But this is how I feel today. For me, I've studied the church now for anywhere between 15 and 30 years, pretty in depth. And for me, in my review of the evidence, I feel very certain for myself that the church is not what it claims to be.

John Dehlin [01:06:38] And the most important thing is, even though I'm the founder of Stale ds, even though I became the poster child ambassador for the Middle Way for many, many years, I've always felt this way. And I will assert it again to you this evening. I believe that it matters if the church is actually what it claims to be or not.

John Dehlin [01:07:08] It's true that I tried my best to make it work. And I don't believe it's my place to cast aspersions on people who still make that choice. I have a lot of respect for people who make that choice. But for me, there are two reasons why this is maybe three reasons why this is really a serious issue. Number one, I believe that most people join the church when they're very vulnerable. Either for the largest part, they're either really young, very influenced by their parents or family, or as you know, the missionaries seek out the people who are the poorest, the most vulnerable, the most struggling, usually in third world countries.

John Dehlin [01:07:45] And not only are they the most vulnerable, but they're not given all the information. And so people are raised in the church with partial information, very important information that they should know. And sort of most disturbingly, they're led to make very serious lifelong commitments and covenants and decisions when they're not given the full amount of information, when they're vulnerable, as they're being pressured by very significant and serious social pressures.

John Dehlin [01:08:19] Number two, once somebody is really in and committed to Mormonism, they invest a significant amount of money and time and resources and reputation and capital to the church. And that is a serious investment. And I believe that whenever someone makes a serious investment, they should have full or as full as possible disclosure on the thing that they're investing in.

John Dehlin [01:08:52] And then the third point, that I don't to want, have to believe her. I've sat in. You know, why did I go into the field of psychology after already spending three years in graduate school, after working for Microsoft and mit, really successful companies, why on earth would I, at age 40, go back to graduate school for six years with four children, three of them teenagers, with a wife who didn't work outside the home? Why would I give up $800,000, probably in income, and all the money that I spent trying to pay for school that many of you helped support, by the way. So thank you.

John Dehlin [01:09:27] Why would I make that decision? Okay, here's why. Because as soon as I started Mormon stories, it was as if I had taken this huge water balloon in the sky and poked this hole in it, right? And as I poked that hole, it turns out that there was this huge balloon of pain and suffering in the Mormon consciousness. And as soon as somebody said, hey, you know what, we're going to talk about this now, and poked that balloon. You cannot believe the emails, the visits that flooded my way as people would drive from Wyoming to come to Logan to have lunch with me for two hours at Cafe Rio just to have a chance to tell somebody about what they're experiencing.

John Dehlin [01:10:11] I would fly to London for a business meeting and a listener would say, hey, John, tell you what, I'll pick you up. I've never met you. I'll pick you up at the airport. You can stay in my home, you can sleep in my daughter's bed. I will drive you from venue to venue over multiple days for your business meeting. I'll take off work if all you'll have to do is Let me talk to you in the car rides between your business meetings. This happened. And it happened because people were experiencing incredible pain and suffering. They would disclose to me. I don't believe, but if I tell my wife, she'll leave me.

John Dehlin [01:10:50] I'm gay, but I can't tell anyone. But I'm thinking about killing myself. I'm bulimic. I'm addicted to drugs and alcohol. I secretly masturbate and look at porn and my wife thinks I'm evil.

Guest [01:11:05] Help me.

John Dehlin [01:11:06] I'm suffering. That is why I started Mormon Stories. And that is why this question about whether the church is actually what it claims to be actually really matters. And that's why. That's why we're all here, and that's why we're doing what we're doing.

John Dehlin [01:11:29] The third thing I want to say is that transitioning is very hard. It's terrible, it's difficult. But as I also said before, it can be really amazing. People need and deserve support. Maybe you've seen the movie Pay It Forward and I really believe it. If you have benefited from exmormon.org, postwoman.org, this community, CES letter, Mormonthink, Mormon stories, any of these assets that are out there, I want you to consider the idea that there are other people. We're just scratching the surface of the Mormon consciousness. There's so many people out there who are in need, so many people who are suffering in silence. People need and deserve support.

John Dehlin [01:12:12] The next two things I think are probably the things I feel most passionately about. I cannot believe that in my Life for probably 43 years, I questioned whether you can be a moral and a happy person outside of the LDS Church.

John Dehlin [01:12:33] That is one of the most ridiculous and insulting and crazy and demeaning and arrogant beliefs that a person could possibly hold in a world of six plus billion people. Not only can you live an incredibly happy and meaningful and fulfilled life as a transition or transitioning progressive or post Mormon, there are so many ways in which it's even more possible.

John Dehlin [01:13:08] Now. You can also live a happy and fulfilling life inside the church. I validate that fully. But do not, do not stay behind where your conscience or your soul or your spirit is urging you to go out of fear. If you heard the little talk I gave at the Unitarian Church a little while ago, if you listen to Jim Carrey's little talk that he gave at a graduation ceremony, he told a story about how his father was this amazing comedian, could make everybody laugh, but he was scared that he couldn't provide for his family as a comedian or an actor. So he took the safe route and became an accountant.

John Dehlin [01:13:52] And Jim Carrey tells how about when he was about 12 years old, his father had taken that safe route and then was laid off from that safe job. And the point that he makes is if you can take the safe route and have it end, in some cases catastrophically, you may as well follow that guru inside of you, that prompting urge that says there is happiness and truth out there somewhere. It may be scary, but it's worth pursuing. And so that's one of the two most important things I want to say. The other very, very important thing that I want to say is that second to what I just said, the second, or maybe tied for first, most crazy and insulting and ludicrous ideas ever perpetuated upon the Mormon mind is questioning whether or not you can raise amazing, brilliant, beautiful, kind, thoughtful, moral children as either a progressive or a post Mormon.

John Dehlin [01:14:57] And I'm here to tell you that it is absolutely possible and in some cases way easier to raise that sort of child outside of the paradigm from which many of us come. There is, there is so much good.

John Dehlin [01:15:18] I'm not going to deny that. But that good can be found. The good that's in the church can be found elsewhere. And there's so much risk and damage. As somebody who sits across these Mormon youth at a university and counsels with them, who are in the church, who are struggling with shame over masturbation or something that they did late night with a girlfriend or some mistake that they've made as they're striving to be perfect and suffering under the suffocation of anxiety or depression, as they feel unworthy and unloved. And that's not everyone's experience, but that is many people's experience. Or as they're blindly following this path that has been given them, only to wake up five or 10 or 15 or 20 years, as many of you did, after they've made the most important decisions of their life, after they've decided what job to take or not to take, what to study or what not to study, who to marry or who not to marry, after they've made those crucial life decisions, then the crisis comes.

John Dehlin [01:16:25] Think about what you're setting them up for as you just sort of say, well, I don't want to disturb things. I'm just going to kind of let it go. I'm not saying tell your kids how to live their life. We to this day allow our kids to go to church if they want to. They don't, but we allow them to. But what I am saying is don't necessarily think that by taking that apparently safe or easy route that you're giving your kids a ride on easy street. What I can tell you is I have met so many amazingly brilliant, gifted, sensitive, thoughtful, wise children beyond their age, raised by atheist or agnostic or, you know, non LDS parents.

John Dehlin [01:17:04] And so that's my testimony. Next thing is momentum is on our side. Even if you just look at the number of people in the world who were baptized Mormon, two thirds are no longer Mormon. Right? Two thirds no longer identify. And as you look at those that are remaining, the momentum is growing. It's easy to overestimate the number of people who are leaving. But I'm telling you, it's safe money that most or many of the loved ones that we experience are going to be experiencing the same things that we did soon in the future. So if you're betting for where the momentum is to going growing, and even outside of Mormonism, right, the fastest growing religious group in the United States is what, the nuns?

John Dehlin [01:17:50] You know this better than I do. So momentum is on our side. Fill those holes. Let your testimony be a big, bright, brilliant life. There's nothing that there's no testimony that speaks more loudly and more convincingly than a beautifully, optimistically, positively lived life of truth and integrity and conviction. So live that life. You can find it, and it's amazing. And the final thing that I'll say is community.

John Dehlin [01:18:22] Community. Community is the answer. It's the answer for you, and it's the answer for all those people out there who are struggling and suffering in silence right now, who need someone to sit across the coffee table from and just to say, can I tell you my story? Can I have someone understand, can I get some tips? Is this possible? Am I crazy? There are people out there who need you, and there are communities out there have yet to be formed who need someone like you to form them. And once those communities are formed, the people who are grasping tightly to that thing that makes them feel so good, if only they can look and say, hey, you know what?

John Dehlin [01:19:04] I can let go of this, because that is going to also make me feel good and it may even make me feel better. Community is what's going to provide that. And I cannot emphasize that enough. So that is my testimony, and I leave it in the name of the Utah Valley Post Mormons.

John Dehlin [01:19:38] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Transitions Podcast. To support the podcast and to join the Mormon Transitions Support Community on Facebook, become a monthly donor today@mormontransitions.org to comment on this episode, please visit the blog post for this episode@mormontransitions.org and thanks for listening.

Guest [01:19:58] Pay attention to the priest that he would read the holy word and consecrate the holy bread and everyone would kneel and bow today the only difference is everything is holy now Everything, everything, everything is holy now. When I was in Sunday school we would learn about the time Moses split the sea in two Jesus made the water wine and I remember feeling sad Miracles don't happen still now I can't keep track Cause everything's a miracle Everything, everything, everything's a miracle. Wine from water is not so small but an even better magic trick said anything is here at home

Guest [01:21:26] so the

Guest [01:21:28] challenging thing becomes not to look for miracles to finding where there isn't one. When holy water wasn't rare at best it barely wet my fingertips but now I have to hold my breath Like

John Dehlin [01:21:53] I'm swimming in a sea of air

Guest [01:21:56] it used to be a world half there Heaven sucking rain hand me down But I walk it with a reverend air Cause everything is one Holy nam. Read a questioning child's face say it's not a testament that'd be very hard to say

Guest [01:22:53] See

Guest [01:22:55] another new morning come say it's not a sacrament I tell you that it can't be done. This morning outside I stood I saw a little red wing bird Shining like a burning bush and singing like a scripture it made me want to bow my head I remember when church let out how things have changed since then Everything is holy now it used to be a world half there Heaven second rate hand me down But I walk it with a reference and hair Cause everything is whole.

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