Introduction to Mormonism and the Internet Conference

John Dehlin [00:00:00] The following presentations were delivered on March 29, 2012, as part of the Utah Valley University Mormonism and the Internet Conference. To see the accompanying data and slides from John Dehlin's why Mormons Question presentation, please go to why mormonsquestion.org so again,

Guest [00:00:21] welcome on behalf of Utah Valley University. We have three illustrative speakers today. The first speaker is John Dellen, who is presenting on why Mormons Leave and how the Internet is helping. And John is I lost my notes. Those of you who have the program can read along with me. But John is currently working at as president of the foundation of Apologetic Information and Research Fair. Is that right? No. Oh, that's Scott. Sorry, got too many names here. John is a PhD student. Are you a candidate or student at this point?

John Dehlin [00:01:04] What's the difference?

Guest [00:01:06] Have you defended your. Are you writing your dissertation or taking classes?

John Dehlin [00:01:12] I'm writing my dissertation.

Guest [00:01:13] All right, so he is a doctoral candidate in clinical and counseling psychology at Utah State University. That's an important distinction to make. Sorry about that. So go ahead. The microphone is yours and we look forward to hearing your comments.

Why Latter-day Saints Question Their Faith

John Dehlin [00:01:31] Welcome, everyone. And I want to thank so much, Utah Valley University, for inviting me to speak today. I was in the restroom with my father just a few minutes ago, and he reminded me that I needed to always make sure and keep things positive. And that made me extra nervous because the truth is, the things we're talking about today are really difficult. I have tried to take some of the sharp edges off the presentation, and I think there are a few areas of hope. But if it ends up being a presentation that makes you a little bit sad, I hope that you can maybe just channel that as you think about the people that we're talking about.

John Dehlin [00:02:12] Because in some sense that might not be completely inappropriate. But I'm excited to have you here. On November 11, 2011, Elder Marlin K. Jensen was asked the following questions during a visit to Utah State University. Quote, has the church seen the effects of Google on membership? Is the church aware of that problem?

John Dehlin [00:02:35] What about the people who are already leaving in droves? Elder Jensen provided the following response. We are aware. Maybe I'll just say this. I often get this question, do the brethren really know? They do. And I'm not speaking of me. I'm Speaking of the 15 men that are above me in the hierarchy of the church. They really do know and they really care. And they realize that maybe since Kirtland, we have never had a period of, I'll call it apostasy like we're having right now. Largely over these issues. End quote In a desire to bring more visibility and understanding to this growing problem, a survey was designed and administered by the Open Stories foundation in the summer and fall of 2011.

John Dehlin [00:03:20] The participation criteria for the survey were as follows 1 the participants must have once believed that the LDS Church was true, and 2 they must no longer believe that it is. The survey was administered via snowball sampling through various means, including email, Facebook, prominent Mormon blogs, and online forums where formerly believing Mormons congregate. A total of 3,086 respondents were included in the final analysis of these data, which can be found at the website why mormonsquestion.org this presentation seeks to review some of the highlights from the study and to briefly explore how the Internet is helping formally believing Mormons navigate their lives post Belief it is important to acknowledge that this survey focused on a specific group of disbelievers, I.e.

John Dehlin [00:04:08] those with historical, doctrinal, theological, cultural, and social issues with the Church who also spend a lot of time on the Internet. This survey did not draw from a randomized sample and does not claim to be representative of all LDS believers. Now to the findings. Finding number one the respondents as a group appear to be relatively well educated, with higher than average income, and with notable levels of prior church leadership experience.

John Dehlin [00:04:38] 97% of our survey respondents had at least some college education, 60% are college graduates, and 31% hold graduate degrees. Regarding income, 43% indicated an annual income of $80,000 a year or more and 29% of over $100,000 per year.

John Dehlin [00:04:58] Regarding leadership callings for our female respondents, 42% served in young women's presidencies and over a third in Relief Society presidencies. For our mayor respondents, three fourths served missions, half served in elders quorum presidencies, and one out of five have served in bishoprics, or 20%.

John Dehlin [00:05:21] Interestingly, 20 of our participants have served in stake presidencies, five have served as mission presidents or in mission presidencies, and one respondent served for five years in one of the quorums of the 70. Finding number two the traditional explanations as to why people lose their testimonies do not appear to apply to this population.

John Dehlin [00:05:44] According to our data, only 4% cited being offended as a reason for losing their faith. Similarly, only 4% indicated a desire to drink alcohol or to have extramarital sex as reasons. Qualitative responses suggest that such accusations are experienced as deeply hurtful to this group. Respondent3129 wrote, Stop assuming people who leave do so because they are offended or want to sin. Look at church history and all its inconsistencies and you will find the answer. I left the Church. No one offended me. I enjoyed the ward members and

Scott Gordon [00:06:21] still

John Dehlin [00:06:22] consider them to be my friends. I obey the law of chastity and word of wisdom. I am faithful to my wife. It's the history and it's not just a single issue. They compound each other until you realize something is fundamentally wrong with the picture and the stories you have been fed and the emotions you have been feeling were all based on falsehoods.

John Dehlin [00:06:42] Finding number three the 10 most common issues contributing to disbelief are in decreasing order Cease to believe in the Church's doctrine and theology studying church history 3 losing faith in Joseph Smith as a prophet 4 loss of faith in the Book of Mormon 5 loss of faith in the general authorities of the church 6 the church's stance on homosexuals and proposition 87 the church's stance on women 8 the church's stance on race issues, including both blacks and Native Americans 9 not feeling spiritually edified at church and 10 the church's historical stance on scientific matters.

John Dehlin [00:07:27] Finding number four in the qualitative responses, there are a few additional themes emerged that merit consideration. They are the one feeling judged for not conforming socially, financially or politically to the norms Number two the constant emphasis on this being the one true church Number three unrealistic expectations of Church members with regard to time, money and behavior and 4 the church's handling of its finances specifically related to its lack of financial transparency and the Church's investment in the construction of the City Creek mall.

John Dehlin [00:08:07] Finding number five the 10 biggest historical issues are the following. Tying it first place are one the issues of polygamy and polyandry, polyandry being Joseph Smith's marrying of other people's wives and 1B issues with the translation of the Book of Abraham not matching the original Propyla papyra from which it was purported to have been translated Number two the denial of priesthood to blacks Number three DNA evidence in the Book of Mormon Number four Masonic influences in the LDS temple ceremony Number five Multiple and conflicting versions of Joseph Smith's first vision story Number six Anachronisms such as horses and steel in the Book of Mormon number seven the denial of priesthood to women Number eight Issues regarding the authenticity or credibility of the priesthood restoration Number nine past Church positions on science, age of the Earth, evolution, etc.

John Dehlin [00:09:04] And 10 Joseph Smith's use of a peep stone in translating the Book of Mormon to provide just one illustration. Participant 2612 wrote, the largest factor for me was polygamy by Joseph and the dishonesty involved Sneaking and lying to those you care about taking other men's wives just sounds like something Warren Jeffs would do and every part of me said that this was wrong and not something God would want a real prophet to do. It made me suspicious and started my search for truth Finding Number six It is rarely one or few issues that lead to someone's disaffection.

John Dehlin [00:09:43] Instead, it appears as though our respondents metaphorical shelves are collapsing or from the weight of numerous major issues. On average, Survey respondents cited 15 major factors and 13 minor factors as having an impact, indicating that there was not simply one or two issues that led to disbelief. On the contrary, many issues appeared to stack up until belief was lost.

John Dehlin [00:10:06] Participant 2612 continued, There are just too many things that do not add up. One or two historical problems may be okay, but there were too many things to put on the shelf and the walls came crumbling down. Finding Number seven It is clear from the qualitative responses that the perception of a lack of transparency and openness on the part of the Church regarding its history is a major cause for disaffection for these participants. Respondent 1857 the problem was not so much the history of the Church, which is really accessible in many good general history books. Rather, it is the discrepancy between what I was learning about Joseph Smith in church history and the sanitized version that I had been taught by LDS leaders my whole life.

John Dehlin [00:10:53] If LDS leaders had taught the truth about Joseph Smith from the very beginning, then I would have never left. Respondent 113 as for history, in some cases the fact that the Church actively hides some elements of its history is worse than the actual events themselves.

John Dehlin [00:11:11] Finding Number eight While we are aware of many fine people working in the field of LDS apologetics, including Scott, it is apparent from the qualitative responses that for many of our respondents, LDS apologetics are not always helpful and in some instances may actually accelerate disaffection, especially when done poorly or with condescension. Respondent 2844 wrote, As I studied church history and uncovered many controversial historical evidence, I would frequent LDS apologetic sites for Answers, Farms, now the Maxwell Institute, Shields, and Fair. I soon discovered that those sites rarely dealt with the controversial evidences, but rather often skirted or obfuscated the issue and frequently resorted to personal attacks on the individuals who were publishing historical information from Respondent 1865 please stop the ridiculous apologetics.

John Dehlin [00:12:05] Their circular reasoning and logical fallacies do more harm than good. Finding number while 56% of our respondents no longer attend church, it's interesting to note that 44% of our respondents that no longer believe the church is true still retain some level of church activity.

John Dehlin [00:12:26] Finding number 10 for those who remain active in the church, it appears as though they overwhelmingly do not feel comfortable discussing their faith crises with ward members, church leadership, friends, and some family members. The list of those who still have been told little to nothing by those who are struggling includes the ward members at 92%, extended family at 85%, friends at 74%, children at 73%, bishops at 72%, and parents at 66%, providing a clue as to why some might not be comfortable speaking with their bishops. Respondent 172 wrote, in addition to the historical inaccuracies I discovered, my testimony was destroyed by judgments I received when I brought questions to my local ward and stake leadership.

John Dehlin [00:13:18] Instead of helping me find answers, I was accused of being in sin and stripped of my temple recommend. Based on this and other responses, it appears as though LDS bishops may be ill equipped to deal constructively with the challenges facing this population.

John Dehlin [00:13:34] Finding number 11amajority of respondents indicated that their disbelief has led to high or extremely high costs to their relationships, spiritual or mental health, or employment. Numerous stories that we have gathered in preparation for this presentation help to illustrate the extent to which families have been destroyed over these issues. I will read only one I was the fifth child in my family to go inactive. Seven children total, but the first child to officially resign from Mormonism. I told my family and my husband's family we were taken out of wills. We went from being the first choice to raise my nieces and nephews upon a death by will to never being able to raise a niece or nephew if a sibling died.

John Dehlin [00:14:17] My dad told me that when I announced that I had resigned, he felt like he had been slapped in the face, sick to the stomach. Then my dad proceeded to tell me that I had caused him more pain and anguish than the six other kids combined. I have a brother that has fathered 10 kids. He's abandoned six of them. Yes, a real deadbeat dad. Three marriages, an affair, $100,000 in debt. Some of his kids are drug addicts, teen pregnancy. But I have caused more pain than my messed up brother and all my siblings combined. I'm happily married to my first husband. My husband got an MBA at a top university.

John Dehlin [00:14:52] We are financially solvent. I had two children. One of my kids was born with many delays and diagnosed on the autism spectrum at age four. After many countless therapies he is nine and a half, totally mainstream and just about considered recovered.

John Dehlin [00:15:07] My daughter is beyond amazing 4.0 GPA all star athlete, beautiful, respectful, she is the dream grandchild and we get nothing. He didn't see her perform on stage at a university when she was 6, didn't see her qualify or win. State has never come to a concert, performance or sport meet of hers ever.

John Dehlin [00:15:28] The two years after my resignation every picture of me was taken down in the house. He couldn't even look at a picture of me, even a baby picture. He just kept hoping that the neighborhood would never find out and if someone asked how I was doing he didn't know how to answer. He is just embarrassed and confused finding number 12 disbelievers who remain active in the church indicated significantly higher mental and spiritual costs than those who go inactive or resigned from the church. In other words, staying active in the church as a disbeliever for many is perhaps the hardest and most damaging of all scenarios.

John Dehlin [00:16:06] Participant 3330 provides some clues as to why activity is so difficult for non believers. It's a very destructive reality of our Mormon culture that those that feel they are struggling with intellectual aspects of our religion and or culture end up in a position of isolation. We often feel like we have no choice but but to quietly, tight chestedly continue on in a church we're not sure we believe in anymore or throw in the towel altogether. It is the loneliest, ugliest feeling to exist in a community that you feel complete, that you feel completely outcast from because of an otherwise perfectly wonderful need. You have to understand rather than to just accept.

Impact of Disaffection on Families and Marriages

John Dehlin [00:16:49] Finding number 13 perhaps the most saddening portion of the survey involves the ways in which marriages have been affected by the fallout from participant disaffection. 28% of still active respondents indicated paying a high or extremely high cost in their relationships with their spouse. The following qualitative responses perhaps capture best the impact that LDS disaffection is having on marriages and families. Respondent 1080 I wish that the Church allowed me to participate as a non believer as I experience it now. Unless I pay tithing, have a temple recommend, etc. I can't participate in the rituals ordinances that are so important to my believing family, baptism, priesthood ordinances, temple marriages.

John Dehlin [00:17:33] I think simply allowing unbelievers to participate in these types of events will make a huge difference in my family relationships. Right now they are just a painful reminder to my family, so I just end up not attending these events at all. From my perspective, the Church is dividing my family, not bringing us closer together.

John Dehlin [00:17:53] Respondent 3076 My wife divorced me because I had critical doubts over the Church's divine leadership on the issue of homosexuality. The Brethren's attempt to protect the sanctity of marriage from homosexuals to some degree resulted in the dissolution of my temple ceiling.

John Dehlin [00:18:09] Respondent438 we desperately need a General Conference address telling spouses to not divorce an otherwise good spouse. Non belief. I have several friends who have been divorced over primarily this issue and my own marriage is still on the rocks due to it, even though I am fully active and respond at 691 tell your bishops and leaders to tell their members to not divorce their spouse when they leave the LDS Church. My husband was advised by his bishop to divorce me. We had 10 children. It was awful. The Church says that families are the most important. You should be ashamed of yourselves

Scott Gordon [00:18:44] and

John Dehlin [00:18:45] finally finding number 14 while 76% of respondents indicated no desire to return to church and dad, here's some happy news. It is worth noting that 24% of respondents indicated that they would be willing to come back under some circumstances.

John Dehlin [00:19:01] The main conditions given for returning were the Number one Greater openness and acceptance towards those with doubts and or non literal beliefs Number two More transparency and up front information about historical issues and controversies. Number three More acceptance and treatment of homosexuals and Number four More respect, sensitivity and equality for women.

How the Internet Supports Faith Transitions

John Dehlin [00:19:31] Last Tuesday I posted the following question to my Facebook page. For those of you who have lost your faith in in the one true churchness of Mormonism, how has the Internet helped you make your transition easier or better? Within minutes, I received dozens of thoughtful and heartfelt responses that I will group into the following categories.

John Dehlin [00:19:50] Number one the Internet has helped these people to not feel so alone and to find new communities. Monica Whitlock writes, I shudder to think how much more agonizing my transition would be without the community of support available on the Internet. I don't feel alone and I know I'm not crazy.

John Dehlin [00:20:09] Rob Barton wrote, the Internet became my new ward. Hillary Hunt added, the friendships I have now feel 100% more authentic. Jack Cadence Steele wrote, I found people who are willing to offer a listening ear and a shoulder to occasionally cry on.

John Dehlin [00:20:27] Second, the Internet has helped to accelerate the learning process through informational sites like MormonThink.com and podcasts like Mormon Expression, Mormon Stories, and Mormon Matters. From Jennifer Ball Kuntz what would have taken two decades of exploration, doubt and confusion ended up being just a few months because all the resources I needed were easily accessed. I was quickly able to at least find my direction from those who have gone before me.

John Dehlin [00:20:55] Number three the Internet has helped them deal with overwhelming emotions. Martha Cook Arndt wrote, a lot of my harsh, negative attitude softened as I was able to read other people's experiences and see how others addressed issues. Janelle Brinton added, online support is where I found the most peace and healing.

John Dehlin [00:21:14] And Ashley Petty Murbeck wrote, without the Internet, my problems and questions with the church would have festered to an unhealthy degree. Total depression, identity crisis, possible divorce, loss of trust in self, total aloneness, no one to talk or admit to, no safe space. All of these were mine and would have been for years and years longer if it had not been for the Internet. To the Internet, I truly owe my current happiness.

John Dehlin [00:21:42] Number four Somewhat surprisingly, some indicated that the Internet has helped them to either reclaim or rejuvenate their relationship to the church in more authentic ways. Holly Bloomwell wrote, I was able to claim my Mormonism instead of pushing it away. I am a Mormon and an agnostic, and that's good.

John Dehlin [00:22:01] Ben Doleman added, on the Internet, I found so many examples of thoughtful people that had grappled with these issues. These people shared a perspective that made me realize I didn't have to throw out everything good because of some problems.

John Dehlin [00:22:16] Number five and in perhaps some of the most dramatic instances, some respondents claim that the Internet literally saved their lives. Liv Ableton shared, PostMormon.org literally saved my life. If it was up to me being left with how my family treated me, I would have killed myself.

John Dehlin [00:22:34] Another Anonymous writer noted, the Internet has literally saved me. I would probably still be suicidal from it all if it were not for the one of a kind support I have found on the Internet. I cannot express how much comfort I have gained from being able to have this access to people and information. It is not a stretch to say this is one of the reasons I am still alive today.

John Dehlin [00:22:54] For the past few minutes for the last few minutes, I would like to share a few personal reflections. In 2001, while studying my heart out as an early morning seminary teacher, I experienced my own crisis of faith. As I turned to family, friends, ward members and ward leadership for help, I encountered landmines at every turn, turning to the Internet for support. Out of almost desperation, I was disappointed to find either apologetic or antagonistic resources and almost nothing that sought to be a neutral support for me in my journey. This led me to start Mormon stories podcast in 2005 and since then, I've interacted with well over 2,000 disaffected Mormons from all over the world.

John Dehlin [00:23:35] In all these interactions, perhaps no story has touched me as deeply as that of Marco, a third generation Mormon from the Netherlands. Biochemistry, PhD, father of three, returned missionary, former Elders Quorum president, Young men's president, ward mission leader, temple worker and institute teacher. A few months ago, Marco shared with me his story. He wrote, although losing my faith in the LDS Church was not a pleasant experience, the main cause of my pain was the sorrow I was putting my wife through.

John Dehlin [00:24:07] Instead of a worthy priesthood holder, she now had an atheist at her side. Prayer and scripture study as a couple and as a family, which for years had brought our family peace, were now awkward and uncomfortable moments. I could hardly stand being at church anymore.

John Dehlin [00:24:22] Only the thought of half the family going to church was actually worse. I was making my wife live a temple marriage by herself. I could stay in the church for her sake, just going through the motions and shutting off inside, but that would mean our children would be raised in the church and set up for the same pain I was going through.

John Dehlin [00:24:41] I remember being on my way to pick up my mother in law to babysit as I burst into tears. I had just run a red light at a crossroad on entering the highway. I wanted to hit the brake but was compelled to keep my foot on the gas.

John Dehlin [00:24:54] I realized I had become an actual danger to myself I my surroundings. I was disgusted and frightened that I might not be able to resist carrying out the horrible thoughts that had been forcing themselves on me. I just wanted my pained soul to end as I saw no way forward. The option of ending things permanently for me and my wife and children became an option that was constantly on my mind.

John Dehlin [00:25:20] Later, Marco shared with me that he knew it was time to reach out for help when he found himself running the same red lights on purpose with his wife and children in the car with him. I'd like to end this talk by bearing a solemn witness of sorts regarding the thousands of Latter Day Saints like Marco who are losing their testimonies of the Church. Number one, their issues are legitimate.

John Dehlin [00:25:45] Number two, their motives are overwhelmingly genuine. Number three, their pain and suffering are real and are significant. It is our hope that the Y Mormons Question Initiative can serve a constructive role in building greater awareness, empathy and support and less judgment and marginalization to those who struggle.

John Dehlin [00:26:09] For those who are interested in accessing the survey and potentially sharing it with friends, family, ward members and ward leadership, I encourage you to download the findings@whymormonsquestion.org and to do your part to join us mourning with those who mourn and comforting those who stand in need of comfort. Please look for more surveys, podcasts and screencasts from us in the weeks and months to come ahead. And thank you for listening.

Guest [00:26:49] John My apologies again for screwing up the introduction. So now we're going to hear from Scott Gordon, who is the president of fair, and look forward to his comments.

FAIR and Apologetics Online

Scott Gordon [00:27:19] Well, as the introduction said, I'm the president of fair, and most people actually should say president of an organization known as fair. And the reason most people call it FAIR instead of the full official name is because the full name is long and difficult to remember. The full name is the foundation for Apologetic Information and Research.

Scott Gordon [00:27:39] Name often confuses people because of the word apologetic. So here's a bit of knowledge that's obviously worth the price of admission to the conference today. Get what you pay for, right? So people are often confused and they ask why we're apologizing. But the word apologetics does not mean to apologize. It has its roots in the Latin apologeticus or the Greek apologeticos. Hear the difference there? Latin, Greek, all you experts out there.

Scott Gordon [00:28:06] But apologetics is the branch of theology that is concerned with defending or proving the truth of Christian doctrines. Michael de Groot from the Deseret News summed it up by saying, being an apologist means never having to say you're sorry.

Scott Gordon [00:28:20] The word apologetics and apologists unfortunately has emotional baggage today. As John mentioned in one of his comments, very much like the term cult, which is often misused as a pejorative, the word apologetics means to some that we are apologizing for our position and to others that we're giving unsupported polemic opinions. Neither viewpoint is correct.

Scott Gordon [00:28:43] So just as a start, our mission statement is FAIR is dedicated to standing as a witness of Christ and His restored Church. Our mission is to address the charges leveled at the doctrines, practices and leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Mormons or Mormons with documented responses that are written in an easily understandable style. We'll use current scholarship, scripture, church doctrine, historical literature and sound logic, and constructing faithful, well reasoned answers.

Scott Gordon [00:29:12] What we do is provide answers for people who are looking for information to counter criticism of the Church. Many in our audience are spouses, other family members, or friends of people who have left the Church and are looking for, as they put it, the truth about the issues.

Scott Gordon [00:29:29] So where did FAIR come from in Internet years? We are really old. Remember, the Internet finally allowed full commercial traffic in 1995. So before YouTube which was started in 2005, before podcasts which was in 2004, before blogging started 1999 and even before Google in 1998, there was Fair on the Internet in 1997.

Scott Gordon [00:29:55] We began with the America Online message boards. Back then, the two major methods of communicating on the Internet were message boards and chat. The religion message boards on America Online were controlled by Christianity today. And they tended to ban or put restrictions on Mormons they saw as too strident or too effective in their discussions. We had quite a conflict with AOL and the Christianity they group.

Scott Gordon [00:30:21] The message boards on AOL were a place where people would come to ask questions about Mormonism. There were essentially three groups there. First, there are the people who asked the questions. Second, the anti Mormons who were lying in wait to pounce on any unsuspecting questioner in order to enlighten them with their version of the truth.

Scott Gordon [00:30:41] And third, a small group of Mormons also lying in wait to rebut their perceived falsehoods put forth by the anti Mormons. In our conversations, we observed two things. First, we recognized it was difficult for one person to be an expert in everything. Some read Greek, some understood theology, some understood philosophy. That would not be me.

Scott Gordon [00:31:01] Some understood history, but very few understood everything. The second thing we recognized with the same question came up over and over and over and over again. So we decided to create a website as a repository for our good answers. That way we didn't have to type out our answer each time, but we could simply provide a link.

Scott Gordon [00:31:22] Eventually, we decided to incorporate and create our own message board. Our main purposes were to create a repository of good answers to help train students in apologetics, to share information, to create a place to discuss Mormonism on the Internet, and to not allow anti Mormons to control the discussion in the public square.

Scott Gordon [00:31:43] We started with a few articles, a message board and what I call a message board style. And by message board style, I mean one that is mostly about winning the debate and is often confrontational. Over time and with a change of leadership, we decided that debate was not the proper role of fair. We decided that FAIR was there to provide information, not to debate.

Scott Gordon [00:32:09] Eventually, our message board became a problem for us. Even though at the time it was one of the most active LDS websites on the Internet. We had to sever all ties with was an open message board that attracted both believers and non believers and that made it interesting and exciting.

Scott Gordon [00:32:25] But we started reading fair's position on various topics on other websites on the Internet we would read that FAIR said this or FAIR said that or fair's position was this. And frankly we didn't know what they were talking about.

Scott Gordon [00:32:40] We would try to figure out where they got that idea. And we eventually figured out that people were quoting someone's post from the message board. And frequently we didn't even know the person who made the post. And sometimes it was even an anti Mormon being quoted defining fair's policy.

Scott Gordon [00:32:57] So people were interpreting the kind of organization FAIR was based on the message board posts. So of necessity we cut those ties. That's what it looks like now. That's not ours, but that's what it's gone into. We now have a website.

Scott Gordon [00:33:16] For some reason I can't get rid of that little pencil in the middle and my mouse isn't doing anything to help me. We know what to do there. Well, it's okay. So I have a website@fairlds.org which contains several articles as well as a topical guide.

Scott Gordon [00:33:33] And then with the advent of Wikipedia, which was formally launched in 2001, we created our own wiki@fairmormon.org to provide a place for our volunteers with different points of view to collaborate on the answers. Now I do want to mention something else.

Scott Gordon [00:33:50] FAIR is an Internet based group of volunteers. There currently are about 100 people in our volunteer email list. Sometimes we have more, sometimes we have less on our list. We have conservative members. People assume that automatically if you're with fair, you must be a really conservative member. But we also have liberal members.

Scott Gordon [00:34:07] We have bishops, we have stake presidents, we have mission presidents and higher as well as Relief Society presidents and workers and nursery leaders and primary pianists. We have Republicans, we have Democrats, we have libertarians, we even have socialists. We have members with same sex attraction. We have a member who was an ex FLDS member. We have ex anti Mormons on our list and all of them are volunteers for fair. At one point we even had a Catholic on our list.

Scott Gordon [00:34:36] So what did we have in common? We had one thing in common. We all believed that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints really was restored by Jesus Christ through Joseph Smith. I should add, except for the Catholic. He didn't believe that. He was just interested in the scholarship.

Scott Gordon [00:34:53] So. So going on the Wikipedia was good because it allowed us with our differing and divergent viewpoints to collaborate on answers that are given. Typically, one volunteer would write an answer to an email that we received which would then take that answer and put it on a Wikipedia article.

Scott Gordon [00:35:11] And then other members of the group would suggest changes or point out weaknesses. Since we have a wide variety of opinions, this has led to responses that are by and large reflective of that variety. Our philosophy is that sunshine is the best disinfectant. So when criticism have arisen about the church, we send our team busily scurrying to their private collections, to the universities, and to the archives to dig up anything they can find on the topic.

Scott Gordon [00:35:38] We try to look at things in context of the talk given, in the historical context of the culture, in the context of other comments made by the same speaker and others of that time period. I find that many, if not most anti Mormon arguments are rebutted simply by going back to the source documents and by understanding the culture of the day and many argument Many anti Mormon arguments can be framed by the phrase Joseph Smith is a false prophet because and you just go and fill in the blank.

Scott Gordon [00:36:10] Now sunshine leads to a variety of outcomes. Often it shows the quote is out of context, but occasionally it shows the quote is quite correct. Then you have to move on to the next question. Does it matter? For example, does it make the church less true when you have two apostles arguing opposing sides of the evolution issue?

Scott Gordon [00:36:31] Sunshine can lead to other interesting things. For example, Gerald and Sandra Tanner of Utah Lighthouse Ministries have long made the claim that there have been 4,000 changes in the Book of Mormon. Well, actually it started with them claiming there were 2,000 changes and they upped the ante to 4,000 changes later. But after careful research we at fair can definitively state that that is a lie. It is false. There are not 4,000 changes in the Book of Mormon.

Scott Gordon [00:37:01] The number is much closer to 105,000 change. Now most of these changes are simply punctuation or spelling. The few changes that are more than that have been carefully studied and well documented. But there are other common anti Mormon tactics that we run into. For example, we have documented in many popular articles and books about Mormons. Mormons are frequently described as claiming, admitting, confessing and alleging, whereas non Mormons affirm, acknowledge, say and testify.

Scott Gordon [00:37:39] Another common tactic is the claim the Church is hiding the information. Two quick examples. Many are upset when they learn that Joseph Smith practiced plural marriage. Everybody knows Brigham Young practiced plural marriage. But if Joseph Smith did it, that's bad and the Church must be hiding it. Or they learn that Joseph Smith may have used a hat and a seer stone while translating the Book of Mormon.

Scott Gordon [00:38:00] The typical claim is the Church has been hiding this or has been dishonest about it. Here's a short list of where you can read about Joseph Smith's marriages. Of course we have Lesson Manual in 2007 Ensign 1992, N sign 1989, Ensign 1978, Ensign 1977, New Era 1973 and of course there's always the DNC section 132 that talks about plural marriage as far as translation with a stone in the hat nsign 1997 nsign 1993 nsign 1998 nsign 1997 and the friend 1974 that talks about that.

Scott Gordon [00:38:37] So we all know it's a children's magazine entry. The fact you may not have heard about something in a Sunday school lesson does not mean that it's hidden. Too many members believe that we teach history in Sunday school classes. That is not what we do.

Scott Gordon [00:38:52] We use examples from history to teach gospel principles. You can learn about history from a book about history, not from a church lesson manual. And speaking of anti Mormon literature, non Mormon scholar Lawrence Foster says they always assume the worst possible motives in assessing the actions of Mormon leaders, even when those leaders faced extremely complex problems with no simple solution, goes on to say every bit of evidence, even if it could be most plausibly presented in a positive way, is represented as yet another nail in the coffin being prepared for the Mormon Church. There is no spectrum of colors, only blacks and whites, good guys and villains.

Scott Gordon [00:39:39] Speaking of villains, Fair has been declared the villain on more than one occasion. In 1995 we were sued by Utah Lighthouse Ministry was a groundbreaking lawsuit. Remember, Internet's been fairly new, so it was a groundbreaking lawsuit where after a victory for Fair in Utah Federal court, it was appealed to the 10th Circuit Court of Appeal in Colorado, where we again prevailed. The discussion centered on what constituted commercial use on the Internet.

Scott Gordon [00:40:08] That's important because commercial speech has restrictions put on it that other speech, such as religious or political speech, does not. And one of the arguments put forward at the time was that if a website linked to a place that sold books or had book reviews such as Amazon.com or if it had banner ads, it therefore became a commercial website and was subject to those free speech restrictions.

Scott Gordon [00:40:36] So those of you who enjoy freedom of speech on the blogger NACL and on the Internet can thank Philosophy Fair. Better yet, you can donate to our legal fees. That would be helpful. And with apologies for those who heard me relate my next story. I've told this before.

Scott Gordon [00:40:52] I had another experience where life met my Internet life met my on the ground life. When a pair of individuals not favorable to FAIR sought out my home and knocked on my door. I wasn't home, but my wife and dog were. It was then announced on a prominent Internet website that they had visited the world Headquarters affair.

Scott Gordon [00:41:11] They proceeded to say disparaging things about my house, about my wife, and even about my dog. They pointed out that my lawn needed to be mowed, which is true. And I was on the Internet. Probably I'm not mowing my lawn.

Scott Gordon [00:41:28] My wife looked frightened and oppressed and that I had a yippee little dog at the time. It pretty much upset everybody in my household. So some time has passed now, so I've moved beyond that. And of course my wife, being the good person that she is, has forgiven them too.

Scott Gordon [00:41:46] But my dog's still pretty angry about it. So getting back to the concept of sunshine being the best disinfectant, we have a conference every year where we provide an opportunity for scholars to discuss controversial topics within a faithful LDS context. We have it in August up in Sandy.

Scott Gordon [00:42:07] We pulled in experts in population genetics to look at DNA in the Book of Mormon. We talked about the Kirtland Egyptian Papers, the Book of Abraham Papyri, the Kirtland Banking Society, Masonry in the Temple, black LDS history, plural marriage, same sex attraction, and much more.

Scott Gordon [00:42:22] We started to expand out with more projects and websites. We did a full review of the Joseph Smith DVD which was put together by some prominent anti Mormons. The newsroom@LDS.org even provided a link to that review. They have since linked to many other articles that we post.

Scott Gordon [00:42:38] We prepared background for Sunday school lessons to point out areas of potential controversy and misinformation. One project that changed my life was we created blacklds.org complete with a discussion of the priesthood ban and history timeline where we put black LDS history side by side with black American history. For those who wonder, yes, I did work with Margaret and Darius and several others.

Scott Gordon [00:43:01] We as a people have not done enough in that area and we need to stop both the race baiting. And the glossing over of facts in our discussion in this area. I'm going to do a Joanna here as Marvin Perkins, an LDS member who happens to be African American, mentioned to me just last week.

Scott Gordon [00:43:28] A big difference between our church and many other churches on this issue is that our church has done an excellent job of documenting all of its racism and racist remarks. FAIR created a blog. Here's the side by side we do.

Scott Gordon [00:43:45] Vera created a blog and a podcast website@fairblog.org that deals with some very sensitive issues. We've recently had a series of Latter Day Saints with same sex attraction. We also recently addressed both polygamy and past racism in the church.

Scott Gordon [00:44:00] Fair's podcast, called the Mormon Faircast, is a winner of the 2011 People's Choice podcast Award for Best podcast in the Religion Inspiration category. Fair created an online bookstore where you could find books from the various universities and publishers. We carry lots of books you would have a hard time finding at Deseret Book.

Scott Gordon [00:44:21] As I like to say, we carry all the boring books that normal people don't buy. We started a Fairlds.org YouTube channel. We also put together a Twitter account and a Facebook page. There's our Twitter account. We even put together a page about Mormon temples. @mormontemples.net Fair sponsors a page done by Dr. Daniel Peterson called Mormon Scholars Testify. In other words, it's not a fair thing, but we sponsor it and we keep it going for them.

Scott Gordon [00:44:56] One of the unique characteristics of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is its emphasis on education and scholarship. This has led to higher education levels among LDs and the US population in general. And the number of LDs who have completed post secondary education is significantly higher than it is for the US Population.

Scott Gordon [00:45:14] Studies have shown that among Latter Day Saints, higher levels of education are strongly correlated with higher church attendance and higher levels of devotion. This differs from the reverse correlation one finds in many denominations. I was just reading blog comments from one person who left the Church long ago who said he still likes being involved with Mormonism because of its scholarly discussions.

Scott Gordon [00:45:38] Fair has three free we have a monthly Fair journal which I edit. We have a daily press clipping, a daily press clipping called Fairs front page which includes links to both positive and negative articles about the church and the press. And then we have a website and newsletter for our newest venture called MormonVoices.org well and that's where you can actually sign up for the newsletters on our on our website there's MormonVoices.org while Fair's writings are directed internally to members of the church, Mormon Voices attempts to interact with the non Mormon press and with the Internet comments to make a shameless plug. At this point we're looking for volunteers who don't mind making comments on articles to help us with that.

Scott Gordon [00:46:23] We're always looking for volunteers there. Now many people when you say the word anti Mormon, especially in the LDS community, they immediately think of this group at Temple Square. Of course you get signs like this which is a little interesting, But their target seems to be newer converts or the youth or recent converts with evangelical backgrounds. And often it's simply fence building with their own congregation to discourage sheep Stealing the brand of criticism that seems to affect LDS members is the secular argument against the church. Typically, these arguments revolve around history or some contradiction in understanding, or even a loss of belief in God. These contradictions often lead to a painful sense of personal betrayal, as John so adequately or so expertly relayed.

Scott Gordon [00:47:28] So what's the difference between an apologist and an apostate? We both read the same literature and come to completely different conclusions. Apologists strongly believe that learning more builds faith and is not a path out of the church. So what's the difference?

Scott Gordon [00:47:49] Is it our worldview? Is it our choice? Is it our desire for the church to be true or false? Is it our desire for belonging? Either belonging to the community of the church or belonging to the community of the secular world? As one person put it recently, belonging to the 99% group?

Scott Gordon [00:48:11] That's something you're going to have to decide for yourself. I've read the good, the bad and the ugly about the church and have dealt with it for a long, long, long time. As I said at the beginning, fair is old in Internet years. I suppose Internet years are all like dog years.

Scott Gordon [00:48:29] I look at it through the lens of a New Testament Scripture, John 6, 67 and 68. This is after many of Jesus disciples didn't like what Jesus said and left him. It says, then Jesus said unto the twelve, will ye also go away? And Simon Peter answered him, lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, I find the words of eternal life thank you, Thank you,

Guest [00:49:16] thank you, Scott. Up next is Rosemary Evance. Am I pronouncing that right? Rosemary? I met Rosemary, by the way, at a conference on digital Media and religion International Conference in Colorado. And I was actually planning on skipping out and going to lunch and buying some souvenirs because it was in Boulder, Colorado. And then I saw her name on the panel and that she was doing a subject similar to what she's talking about today. So looking forward to hearing what she has to say this time because I missed lunch over it last time.

Mormon Deconversion Narratives and Online Identity

Rosemary Avance [00:49:50] I really appreciate the invitation to be part of this conference. I'm a scholar of communication. I'm from the Annenberg School of Communication at the University of Pennsylvania, where I'm interested in studying religious identity and how people talk about their faith and how people make choices to be parts of particular communities.

Rosemary Avance [00:50:09] And so because of my academic background and trying to build up my CV to get a job, I've been presenting at mostly academic conferences related to my discipline of communication. So usually when I present at a conference, there's a Mormon in the audience. This is the first time I've presented to an audience of Mormons. So this is a new experience for me. So hopefully you'll enjoy some of my research. Earlier this morning, Joanna mentioned sort of a need for qualitative and ethnographical research into what identity means to Mormons. And that's really the question that I'm interested. That's the question that I'm proposing to investigate in my upcoming dissertation.

Rosemary Avance [00:50:51] And this is sort of a little small taste of the kinds of questions that I'm interested in as a scholar, a non Mormon scholar, I should add some studying religion and studying how identity is narratively developed. And so you'll see from my title, Seeing the Light, Mormon Deconversion narratives and D is in parentheses, which is a really cutesy little way of saying, I mean conversion and deconversion narratives in on and offline worlds. So I'm interested in testimony and I'm arguing that testimony is a narrative form that former and current Mormons share.

Rosemary Avance [00:51:27] So it's some common ground. And this might be the bright side to some of these. I mean, this is a really interesting panel to put together and I'm really proud to be on this panel. And I think this is sort of a thread we can see that can hold some of this together and maybe take away some of the depression from the idea of defection when we think about communities and when we think about what it means to belong.

Rosemary Avance [00:51:51] So as we know, and as you know, intuitively, the Internet is very vital in this increasing expression of Mormon identity in the public space. Now Mormons have all these venues now to express their identities and to develop identities online that weren't available to them in the past. And so it can serve these community reinforcing roles. And this comes from normative sources like lds.org and mormon.org apologetic sites and places where Mormon voices can join into secular conversations and help correct misperceptions in the media and the gathering place. The blogger nacl, the idea that you can fellowship with like minded believers online.

Rosemary Avance [00:52:39] But as the Church recognizes, affirmation is clearly not the only role of the Internet in religious identity. And as John has pointed pointed out, this is seen as a problem from the Church's perspective increasingly. So in this presentation, I'm really interested in the other side of the religion and digital media question, which is hopefully not playing into any moral panics about the Internet and the danger of the Internet for faithful Mormons searching online.

Rosemary Avance [00:53:10] In the case of Mormons, the Internet obviously can serve as this for information that can lead to disaffection or doubt or a change of identity to a more heterodox identity. So I have a little personal anecdote. As a scholar of Mormon who is not Mormon, I began studying Mormonism by taking the missionary lessons. And I took the lessons from a retired couple that was so gracious to give me their time. Even though they knew I was doing academic study of Mormonism. I was really interested in the stories that they told me. They told me the same things they would tell me if I were a potential convert.

Rosemary Avance [00:53:48] And they told me all about Joseph Smith, and they told me some really great stories, and they gave me a lot of literature and they told me if I'm interested and I want to learn more about Joseph Smith, that they would bring me books and pamphlets and all kinds of resources that they had. But then they said, and they got really quiet and really serious. They said, but please don't google Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith.

Rosemary Avance [00:54:10] And so I did. As soon as they left, I googled Joseph Smith because I wanted to know what's the problem with googling Joseph Smith. So when I googled Joseph Smith, and this has been a few years ago, but even at that time, the church had their search engine optimization. So when I googled Joseph Smith, the very first thing that popped up is the sponsored link from the church. But then right after that was anti Mormon sources or sources that are about exposing the church as a first.

Rosemary Avance [00:54:34] So I could see clearly why they didn't want me to google Joseph Smith. They didn't want me exposed to that type of information. So the fear of that information is real and ongoing, as my experience illustrates. So in my work on Mormon identity, many heterodox and former Mormons that I have interviewed have explained that the Internet, and this echoes what John said when he said that the Internet is the second ward for former Mormons, is now their new ward.

John Dehlin [00:55:00] So.

Rosemary Avance [00:55:00] So I found that many former Mormons and heterodox Mormons literally say that the Internet is their sanctuary. It's the place where they fellowship. And this is not just former Mormons, but heterodox Mormons who may not have viewpoints that are in line with literalist interpretations of the Book of Mormon.

Rosemary Avance [00:55:21] So I'm making sort of a broad thematic approach to the idea of narratives and testimonies, and that is to say, narratives of conversion and deconversion. These are the stories you tell about how you became what you are. And these, in online and offline spaces, are ways of creating and sustaining ritual communities. And your identity is a result of that community to which you belong. And so when I talk about the narratives, I'm specifically talking about literally the testimonies that are offered. But I'm also claiming that there's a corollary for former and heterodox Mormons. There's a story that they tell about who they are that relates very closely to the idea of testimony.

Rosemary Avance [00:56:02] So I'll explore a little bit that discourse for you to show you exactly what I mean. So I draw on two sources of ethnographic data. And the first source is interviews offline with 17 Mormons. And in these interviews, I asked Mormons to tell me to share with me as a non member, their testimony of the church. And then I took those narratives after transcribing them, which took hours. After doing that, I took those narratives and analyzed them in relation to official church discourse. And by that I mean testimonies of the general authorities, essentially. So I took testimonies of the general authorities and I looked at them for narrative structure, how they're composed, what they relate to.

Rosemary Avance [00:56:46] Then I compared those with the stories that the members told me. And so when I analyzed that, I argued that the Mormons that were offering me their testimonies have similar testimonies to the general authorities. And the general authorities, in turn, modeled their own testimonies after the Joseph Smith experience.

Rosemary Avance [00:57:03] So, and I'll get a little more into the details of what I mean by that. So the idea is that members are able to kind of richly embody the Joseph Smith experience when they offer their testimony. I think this is something that is implicitly acknowledged by Mormons themselves. But then in this project, I juxtapose that first source of data with online participant observation at two sites, websites, that some of you probably be familiar with if I told you the names of them. But in keeping with norms for anonymity, because this was an academic project, I'm making up names, and the names are the Path and the Escape.

Rosemary Avance [00:57:41] And so on these two boards, these are two very different kinds of communities for two very different kinds of the Path is heterodox Mormons and the Escape is former Mormons. So I juxtapose the testimony ideas from the first source of data that I gathered with the stories that were told on these two boards after doing participant observation and interviews with members of those boards.

Rosemary Avance [00:58:07] So don't get confused as I juxtapose these three groups and I sort of interchange and talk about them. Hopefully you can keep up the craziness. Okay, so first let me sort of illustrate. I'm sure you'll be familiar with the taxonomies that I have laid out here. And these are just sort of my own analyses of these types of sites. And these are two specific websites. So the Path is generally sympathetic to the Church.

Rosemary Avance [00:58:33] They draw a nuanced distinction between being Mormon and believing literally in the Book. So you can be Mormon, you can get value from that identity without having a literal interpretation of the Book of Mormon or the Church's history.

Rosemary Avance [00:58:46] They generally want to remain Mormon, but they have some sort of issue with the Church's history, moral positions, politics, structure, etc. And they see the Church overall, broadly as a source for good in the world, as a positive source source, but that it needs some progressive change within its structure in order to be most effective. So those are sort of the themes that come up there. And they want to nuance truth claims. So what does it mean for something to be true? There can be truth in all things.

Rosemary Avance [00:59:13] And they want to nuance whether or not the Book of Mormon is true by talking about, well, what do you mean by true? So maybe truth is relative for the Pathist. And then they also, they see the website itself as a full. These both are message board based websites and they see the Path as a forum for learning and intellectual and spiritual growth. So that's the purpose of the forum.

Rosemary Avance [00:59:36] The people on this website are not necessarily out, and I say out, they're not necessarily known to be to hold these beliefs about the Church, non literalist beliefs, to their family and friends in the real offline world. So online they have these viewpoints that they share and this is a community where they can freely share those views. And then in contrast, the escape is sort of very different from that forum.

Rosemary Avance [01:00:00] These are antagonistic to the Church. They have left the church or they consider themselves on their way out. Some of them have not actually left, but they generally take issue with all aspects of the Church, from the history to the practices to the people in the Church. And they find few redeeming qualities in the institution or the culture of the Church. So unlike the papists, the escapists don't see the Church as a force for good in any way. They see Joseph Smith and modern day prophets as frauds and liars or as deluded psychopaths.

Rosemary Avance [01:00:34] They see the members themselves as deluded or brainwashed members of a cult. I mean, you've all heard these tropes before, this is not new. So, but similarly to the Pathist, these people are not all necessarily out. And I think John pointed to that when he illustrated with the graph so much more cleanly than this.

Rosemary Avance [01:00:54] A lot of them are still participating in services. Some of them are leading Sunday school. Right. So as I explored these communities and I read their stories about how they came to inhabit these identities, I noticed some really strong, striking parallels with the narrative testimonies that had been offered to me in my other project that I conducted. So obviously they just held different stories, right? Believing and non believing stories, these are very different. But all three groups are creating testimony about who they are and why they believe what they believe, and they use narrative scripts to do that. So these are, these are canonic forms for ritually expressing your identity.

Rosemary Avance [01:01:34] And so the ways that pathis and escapists talk about their relationship to the Mormon faith and to faith more generally follows a normalized structure that emphasizes these kinds of cohesive narrative elements. So this is just sort of a maybe less interesting idea about where I'm coming from, why I'm doing it this way. I sort of take a social constructivist perspective to religious identity, which is to say there's no such thing as Mormonism out there. Mormonism as an identity is something that's created by interaction, by ritual, by participation. So praxis creates Mormon identity. Right? So the things that you say about what it means to be Mormon create the idea of Mormonism.

Rosemary Avance [01:02:15] That's not to say there's no such thing as the church, because obviously there is a church, but it's just to say that when you want to understand what it means to be Mormon, then you need to ask people and you need to their stories that they tell construct Mormonism as they tell those stories. Now these are just some interesting theorists, if you're interested in that.

Rosemary Avance [01:02:33] And I also draw on John Durham Peters here and his idea of the communicative impulse behind the spiritual impulse behind communication. So John Durham Peters is a communication scholar, very renowned and also a practicing Mormon. And his, his book is really about how there's this impulse in human behavior when we try to communicate with one another. There's this impulse that we're trying to obtain. This meeting of the minds are this touching of souls. He calls it like an angelic impulse to try to become one with one another through our communities. And so that's why we form communities. I mean, that's why we have rituals of testimony.

Rosemary Avance [01:03:12] We share our stories, we try to convey the essence of who we are with one Another. So, but if this impulse is at the heart of what it means to be human, as Peter's claims, and if it finds one of its prominent expressions in religion, what does that mean for people who don't have religion or who have lost religion or who are losing religion, or who have a different kind of religion than the officially sanctioned version. So I'm interested in the ways that those individuals who find themselves sort of on the margins or outside the bounds of the institutional religion, they can still embody these impulses, this human yearning to meet the minds and touch the souls of other humans.

Rosemary Avance [01:03:55] So here's the data that I gathered at these sites and the first, I'll start with the escapist narratives when they talk about how they came to leave or to be on their way out of the Mormon church, the ways that they talk about that, and here I'm just comparing that with the faithful testimonies that I mentioned that I gathered in offline interviews.

Rosemary Avance [01:04:17] So as you can see, this is the script and they almost exclusively follow it to some degree. So there's usually on these websites, there's usually a form that's dedicated specifically to telling your story and telling the story of how you became doubting or questioning your faith.

Rosemary Avance [01:04:36] And the parallels here are really sort of uncanny. So both converts and both the faithful testimony and the escapist testimonies here talk about a moment where they receive some kind of momentous information misinformation that threatens to challenge their worldview. So for a faithful Mormon, this is the seed of the gospel being planted. And for a former Mormon, this is a seed of doubt being planted in their mind by some type of information that they received. So in the faithful case, they zealously seek more information.

Rosemary Avance [01:05:06] The people who gave me their testimony said they read the Book of Mormon from COVID to cover and couldn't put it down, whereas the former Mormons told me that they could couldn't stop reading non Mormon anti Mormon websites or books that were not sanctioned by the church. So they're zealously seeking information from two very, very different sources.

Rosemary Avance [01:05:26] Both tell about an affective response to the information that they receive, which is really interesting to me because the escapist narrative is framed as rational and scientific, whereas the faithful testimony is framed as an experience that one has. So in the faithful testimony case, they talk about seeing the light, being filled with a burning in the bosom, being filled with peace and warmth, and ultimately a feeling of peace and surety that they know the truth.

Rosemary Avance [01:05:52] Former Mormons say a light came on. They were filled with anger. And ultimately they were filled with the feeling of peace and surety that what they knew was the truth. So it's the exact same thing. Right. And for former Mormons, then they go to, after they have this experience, they bear their testimony about it. And this is ritualized in fast and testimony meetings. It's ritualized in exchanges with non Mormons like myself. It's highly ritualized through missionaries. I mean, the whole rite of passage of Mormonism, it's a very evangelistic in its expression to tell the story. It's important to tell the story. And for former Mormons, this actually, in the code of conduct on this website, it says this is not a form for bearing testimony.

Rosemary Avance [01:06:36] And they say that to keep people from proselyting Mormonism to the former Mormons. But in fact it is bearing testimony. They continue to bear their testimony and are very evangelistic in their fervor of freeing people from Mormonism. So it's an attempt to convert, to deconvert rather than to convert. But it's the same impulse, I would argue.

Rosemary Avance [01:06:58] So the path is different, obviously, because these are still people who find value and substance in what the Church has to offer. So unlike the Escape, the Path emphasizes that individuals must come to their own conclusions about the church and own that through faith and rationality, and blending faith and rationality with modern ideas about evidence and intellect and proof.

Rosemary Avance [01:07:25] So the members here are heterodox in their approach to their own faith. And the path, like I said before, is less vitriolic and less apologetic than the Escape. But anger and sadness are still main themes here, and loss, as people come to terms with a religion that they once thought was perfect, and they begin to question some aspects and may see it now even as less than inspired.

Rosemary Avance [01:07:47] So despite the array of experiences, obviously this encapsulates. I mean, the term heterodox itself sort of encapsulates a broad swath of extension that are potential on this website, but there's still some formulaic. There's some important formulaic elements to the stories that they tell on these sites.

Rosemary Avance [01:08:05] Like members of the Escape, they previously occupy a position of normativity in regards to their church. So they're orthodox in their. In their practice. They believed the Church to be true at one time, and they accepted the history and doctrine of the Church on the Church's own terms. And usually on the path, they begin this story by giving their Mormon bona fides. And I'm sure you've seen this if you're a frequenter of websites, like this, where it starts by saying, you know, my pioneer heritage and I served a mission and I was married in the temple. And so it goes through a list of things to show how invested this person was in the church and that they really were a real believer at one time.

Rosemary Avance [01:08:41] And so then it goes from that to describing this momentous event, similarly to the other two I described, where they talk about a piece of incendiary information that sort of interrupted that idyllic relationship to the faith with more or less catastrophic results. So this is a heterodox community. So some of them do not believe the Book of Mormon is true, but they still see value in the church, whereas others do believe the Book of Mormon is true, but they want to qualify what it means to be true.

Rosemary Avance [01:09:09] So an escapist might tell about anti Mormon information that they encountered that sort of upended their worldview and sparked all these questions and doubts. But pathists tend to tell of social or cultural failings of the church that disappointed them.

Rosemary Avance [01:09:26] And then from there they move to negotiating their relationship with the church on their own terms. So they are not assenting to the church and they're not rejecting the church. They're occupying a liminal space. Of course, it'd be interesting to do a longitudinal study of the types of users of the site to see if they eventually occupy a position of full ascent or if they eventually reject the church outright. That's obviously unknowable at this point, but just like on the Escape, there's some ironic posting guidelines for the Path that says this is not a forum for bearing testimony or trying to raise polemics against the church.

Rosemary Avance [01:09:59] But despite the fact that their testimonies are obviously very different, their personal accounts are still testimony because they're establishing points of affinity with other members of the group and they are welcoming others to do the same, to share testimonies and to share how they have experience, experienced difference from the church. So the experience of difference relates them to each other in an experience of sameness within the community, of the path itself.

Rosemary Avance [01:10:27] So among faithful Mormons, testimony serves this ritual function, creating and maintaining religious identity and offering testimony. Testimony is created by saying, I know the church to be true. One comes into that knowledge of knowing the church to be true. In fact, church leaders have have told people, the best way to get your testimony is to bear your testimony. So in saying that you know the church is true, you come into this knowledge and into an obligation to the church and to the ritual community that is the church.

Rosemary Avance [01:10:56] So what do we make of deconversion stories. So I'm arguing that questioning and former Mormons are engaging in this ritual of sharing, and it binds them in a spiritual community. And it also imagines a worldview, a totalizing worldview. Similarly to Mormonism and to them, this worldview is predicated on logic and rationality.

Rosemary Avance [01:11:19] But it's still, they say, rather than emotion and faith, it's predicated on rationality and logic. But still they discursively mirror the same experience, including the affective portion of that experience when they give their testimonies. So believing Mormons obviously put their bodies on the line for the richer communities. But often this is online. Often these doubting and former Mormons do not.

Rosemary Avance [01:11:43] There is something at stake for them to come out in the real world as doubting or former or heterodox in some way. So they have this vested interest. They are afraid of these risks that John mentioned, losing their family, being ostracized. And these are themes you see on, on these sites.

Rosemary Avance [01:12:02] And they also opt for anonymity to shield their believing spouses from scrutiny and embarrassment. Even if they're not afraid that they'll be left, they don't want to cause that kind of harm or pain. So one member of the Path said he recognized the sensitive nature of being public with my spiritual journey. So Mormons who don't toe the line in belief or practice are afraid of disappointing their family and friends, and they run the risk of ostracism or even excommunication, which, which has been a threat in the past.

Rosemary Avance [01:12:31] So I think at this moment, where religion and modern technology are sort of starting to collide in a big way, we might expect to see erosion of religious impulses. And you can make the argument, as people disaffect from the church, that that might be what's happening. But this isn't the erosion of the impulse for communion and for fellowship. It's a different manifestation of that impulse. And people are finding communities and they're finding fulfillment in other ways than the traditional way. So we can rethink a little bit about what it means to belong to a spiritual community.

John Dehlin [01:13:04] Thanks.

Panel Discussion with Conference Participants

Guest [01:13:26] Okay, so instead of opening directly to questions, let's take a. We have the panel discussion in 15 minutes. Let's take a 15 minute break and then come back, those of you who can or want to. And then we'll have the panel discussion open to questions and we can have a more, less formal way of having a conversation with our panelists. Thank you.

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