Introduction and Guest Background

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome to a special edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, Dr. John Dehlin. We just finished a good three and a half hours with Kelsey Marie Warner. Kelsey is a well known TikToker, 500,000 followers and counting. And one of her areas of expertise is self harm. And because we care about mental health on Mormon Stories podcast and because we know there are a lot of youth and adults who deal with self harm and and who are trying to either figure out how to not self harm themselves or to support someone else who self harms, we thought it'd be cool to just create like a 20 minute how to deal with self harm either yourself or if you're supporting a loved one.

John Dehlin [00:00:43] And that's what we're going to do. And you go back and watch Kelsey's three and a half hour interview if you want the in depth but this is just going to be kind of a primer introduction. So Kelsey, welcome back to Mormon Stories podcast. And we're gonna tell tell them really quickly what you do and what your TikTok channel is about.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:01:01] Okay, so I have a tick tock channel about mental health with a focus on coping skills for self harm, self injury and all of my videos are pretty much point of views, which is it's like watching a mini clip from movie where you have myself playing the roles of two or three people, a parent and children and the mother is helping the child cope with depression and solve harm. So each video is a coping skill.

John Dehlin [00:01:28] And what is it about your background that makes it so you were interested in and or qualified to or capable of becoming kind of an expert on this issue?

Kelceymarie Warner [00:01:39] Okay, so as far as my background, I struggled with mental health as well as a child and did engage in self harm behaviors through much of my teen years and into my early twenties. So and then as far as qualifications go, all of my tiktoks are evident from evidence based research articles. So most notably I use Cornell University's website. They have an excellent PDF that has a list of coping skills you can use and it's also broken up into categories. So if it's like you're seeking sensory, try this. If you are depressed, try this. And I use that kind of to guide my videos just so I make sure that they are all evidence based and just safe.

John Dehlin [00:02:27] You know, I think it's also important to mention that you have an instructional design background because what that helps you do is design content and curriculum that's going to be compelling to people because who cares if you have a dissertation on self harm if nobody wants to read it because it's boring or not well designed. So that's, that's a skill.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:02:45] I do. I have a master's degree in education and instructional design and I was actually working on my PhD in education and curriculum instruction assessment. I was about halfway through and I decided to quit the PhD and start my second master's degree in mental health counseling. So I do have that background of lesson development, which is basically what a TikTok is. It's a very short, very compact lesson and as you mentioned in the previous episode, you have to be very quick and very intelligent about it. So I do. I, I think that helps, you know.

John Dehlin [00:03:18] And what's the name of your TikTok channel?

Kelceymarie Warner [00:03:20] Kelsey Marie Warner name Spell Kelsey K E L C E Y and then so M A R I E W A R N E R. Kelsey Marie Warner is my name.

Understanding Self-Harm and Why It Happens

John Dehlin [00:03:29] Okay, all right, all right, well, let's jump into it. What? And trigger warning. We're going to be talking about self harm. So, you know, pause, leave and. Or manage your viewing, however is best for your mental health and well being. But we're going to talk about it a bit. So let's start with, you know, what is self harm, what precedes it and what. Why do people do it?

Kelceymarie Warner [00:03:53] Okay, so what is self harm? Self harm is anything that you do that damages your body. So like intentionally. So it can be cutting, scratching, overeating, under eating, binge drinking, just anything that hurts your body. Burning, Burning, absolutely. Picking, like skin, picking fingernails, pulling out your hair, scratching if it hurts you. It's a form of self harm. Okay, basically.

John Dehlin [00:04:22] And why do people do it?

Kelceymarie Warner [00:04:25] People do for lots of reasons. The very basic premise is that it's a coping skill. It's an unhealthy one because it damages your body, but it is a coping skill. And it's something people do because oftentimes because of trauma, they're having a traumatic experience and sometimes they feel numb, disconnected, and they do something to ground them and grounding them, basically it brings them back into this present moment and it helps them focus. And that could be because of the pain or the endorphins that are released. Sometimes people do it because they want to punish themselves, others do it. God, there's so many reasons.

John Dehlin [00:05:05] I mean, the most common scenario I hear is that somebody's experiencing some significant distress in their lives and that distress is intolerable. And in this weird ironic way by, by causing injury to themselves through some type of self harm, like cutting that, that directed Intentional pain becomes preferable to the other global distress that they're experiencing.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:05:33] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:05:33] Does that make sense?

Kelceymarie Warner [00:05:34] It does. And it's also a way of gaining control in your life too because you have control over your body now. Maybe you didn't earlier with whatever happened to you, but in this moment you have control about what happens with your body. And so self harm and eating disorders can go hand in hand that way. It's a way of gaining control as well.

John Dehlin [00:05:49] Okay, okay. So we've talked about some of the ways that people self harm and kind of why they might do it. Okay, so what are, what are the healthy and unhealthy? Let's, let's start with the unhealthy. So what are the unhealthy ways to look at and, or try and treat or cope with self harm? Does that make sense?

Kelceymarie Warner [00:06:11] Okay, so unhealthy ways to treat a folks of harm.

John Dehlin [00:06:13] Yeah. So, okay, let's say you are self harming. What are unhealthy ways to look at your self harming and, or to try and stop or fix yourself? Harmony, if you can think of that.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:06:26] So.

John Dehlin [00:06:27] Or unhealthy approaches to it.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:06:28] An unhealthy approach would be deciding it's for attention. A lot of people are afraid to come forward to discuss or ask for help because they don't want to be seen as attention seeking. And so don't look at yourself that way. Um, and even if you do need attention, that's not a bad thing. Human beings need attention, you know. So another unhealthy approach would be to not take it seriously. Even if it's not attention seeking. It is kind of a cry for help in a way. You know, without being attention seeking. That's. I'm sorry, it's a sign that they need help as well. So take it seriously. Don't just like brush it off, they'll get over it, you know, take it seriously.

John Dehlin [00:07:04] What if you just feel so ashamed, it's like this is a horrible thing, I'm doing it. I don't want anybody to know.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:07:11] Know that you're not alone. I read a study recently, there was like 1 in 4 girls self harm teenage girls. So it's not that uncommon. In fact, one in four. One in four. I'll send you the article later. It was kind of mind opening, mind blowing, but it's very common. I know so many people that used to solve harm and a lot of people self harm without even realizing they're self harming. So even if your friend Sarah says she doesn't Self harm. But when she's, you know, upset, she scratches herself. That's self harm.

John Dehlin [00:07:40] You know, what if somebody feels like they can't get better? What if somebody feels like there's just no out, that it's just become part of who they are and what they do?

Kelceymarie Warner [00:07:48] You're not alone in that either. A lot of people, when they get into that mind state of mind, they can't see past this dark hole that they're in. So. But there is light on the other side. You just have to learn the coping skills and then build that support system and set those boundaries because something in your life is going wrong that's putting you in this place. So try to identify what that is. You can set boundaries with that person or that issue, you know, and small steps, you know, you'll get there.

John Dehlin [00:08:18] Okay, let's, let's change the perspective to the person, the parent or the loved one who's trying to support someone who self harms. Sometimes when you discover that a loved one is self harming, it's just mind blowing. It's, it's revolting or it's, it's terrifying, it's in some ways it's violent or it feels violent. What are the unhealthy ways that loved ones try and intervene with another loved one who's self harming?

How Loved Ones Can Respond Helpfully

Kelceymarie Warner [00:08:46] The most common one I hear is parents saying that they want it for attention, they're doing it for attention. And that is unhealthy because for one, it lessens what the child is going through. It says it minimizes, it shame you, you just want attention, which is a bad thing, you know, and you're making us look bad. So we're just going to brush this under the rug and it's going to go away. And I think parents do that simply because it's easier to believe your child is misbehaving than it is to realize that there's an issue in your home. And I think it's just that.

John Dehlin [00:09:20] Right, so, so don't dismiss it as just attention seeking. What else, what else?

Kelceymarie Warner [00:09:25] Don't think it's just a phase. Mental health is a long term thing. People have depression for years, you know, or anything else.

John Dehlin [00:09:32] And so that they're. Don't expect that there's necessarily a quick fix.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:09:36] Exactly right. It's, it might take time and it's important to be patient and try to be empathetic as best as you can. You know, even if you, you can't understand, one of the most important things you can do is just be there As a parent, I feel that's a lot of parenting. It's just being there without judgment.

John Dehlin [00:09:54] What if a parent wants to be hyper vigilant? In other words, like check you every day, see, find out where it is, where you're harming, monitor you. Oh, you did it, you know, put you time out or ground you or take your phone away. I don't know. What are the ways that parents try and or loved ones try and enforce or control someone's self harm and how does that work out when they do it?

Kelceymarie Warner [00:10:19] Does not work out very well at all. A lot of my viewers mentioned how their parents do body checks, make them undress and like look for the marks. And that just makes the kid feel worse because for one thing, if they screw up, they fail. They feel worse because now they're being. It's almost dehumanizing because they strip you down. They look and that just kind of takes away control over your own body. For one thing. It sends a message to the child. A parent doesn't trust them. And then the parents are disappointed because they find what they ultimately know is there. So it just makes the child feel so much worse.

John Dehlin [00:10:52] And when they feel worse, what do they do?

Kelceymarie Warner [00:10:54] They self harm more. You know, maybe they do it somewhere else. They get better at hiding it. You know, the issue doesn't go away, it just morphs into something else.

John Dehlin [00:11:01] Yeah, right, okay. But for a parent or a loved one who knows their loved one is self harming, it's like this is intolerable. We got to get this fixed. So let's jump into if you are self harming, what are some healthy ways to approach it and ways that you can slowly get better?

Coping Skills and Treatment Approaches

Kelceymarie Warner [00:11:20] Okay, so as an individual who struggled with self harm, the first thing I recommend people do is look into coping skills. Coping skills are so many things you can do. My videos are generally more extreme things. Just because people enjoy those more, you know, squeezing ice or like rubbing it on where you would self harm. Flicking rubands.

John Dehlin [00:11:41] Okay, okay. Give those examples and explain why they're good.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:11:44] Okay, so flicking the reband is a good one. Oh, I'm sorry. Simply because it's a sensory thing. It stings a little bit, which is enough to bring you back into the moment to ground you. But it's not generally so much that actually hurts you. Same thing with the ice. You hold ice long enough, it stings a bit, but it's still better than burning yourself, you know? Right. So it's a minimizing behavior almost. It lessens.

John Dehlin [00:12:09] I think this is Called harm reduction.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:12:10] Right, yes, that's what. Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:12:12] So you're. No, I'm not trying to correct you. I'm just so. So cutting may really harm you or you know, burning may really harm you. So it's like, why with the rubber band you're still harming yourself, it hurts. Or with the ice you're still hurting yourself, but it's about harm reduction because less harm is better than more harm.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:12:29] Right.

John Dehlin [00:12:30] So you gotta think about in terms of degrees of harm. Am I right?

Kelceymarie Warner [00:12:34] Yes, I agree. Absolutely. And it's kind of like a step on the journey. So maybe you were doing this very graphic thing before, but now you're just squeezing ice. Maybe tomorrow you are dosed in a flicker or a band and the next day maybe you're gonna go for a run, which is hard, it feels hard in your chest, but it's actually healthy for. So eventually people start choosing more gentle coping skills along the way. That is my thinking process. That makes sense.

John Dehlin [00:12:57] Yeah. And. And I guess if somebody was finding some sort of satisfaction or relief from, let's just say cutting or burning or scratching, it's it. One might ask, well, would. Would holding ice or flipping a rubber band be enough? Can it, can that be become something that someone progresses towards, where it becomes enough?

Kelceymarie Warner [00:13:18] It definitely can, because people self harm for different reasons. Some people want the pa want the visual of red fluids, in which case you can do talk about that.

John Dehlin [00:13:26] What do you mean visual of red fluids?

Kelceymarie Warner [00:13:27] So sometimes you get that release of endorphins from like a visual stimuli of

John Dehlin [00:13:32] seeing blood, for example.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:13:33] Seeing blood, for example. So rather than hurting yourself, you are holding like red food dye in your wrist or wherever and applying the ice. So as the ice melts, it does kind of sting a little bit, but it's not generally to the point that it hurts you. And then the red food dye and the melting ice trickles down as if it's blood. Right.

John Dehlin [00:13:49] So it kind of satisfies whatever that need is. And we don't even care necessarily what the need is. But if you've got it and you can satisfy it in a way, may seem kind of interesting, but you're reducing the harm. It's a win, is it?

Kelceymarie Warner [00:14:03] Right, exactly. And the other theory behind the other thought process behind this is that it postpones the actual self harm. So maybe it won't get rid of the overall desire, but it's delayed you like 5, 10 minutes, enough for your. It almost like clears your mind. It's like, okay, I don't actually have to do this. I have more will now not to do this because it got you past it.

John Dehlin [00:14:24] You ride the wave.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:14:25] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:14:26] You have this peak of distress and if you could just ride that distress wave long enough, it's going to, it's going to decrease. And so if you can just kind of practice riding out that wave, the more practice you get and experience you get riding out the wave, you can learn to ride out your distress and cope in a more healthy way. So that over time you harm yourself less and less and less and. Or with less harmful behaviors such that over time you reduce the harm and then eventually stop the harm.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:15:02] Right, exactly right, Definitely. And when people get to that point where they're no longer like actively self harming, often, I encourage them to continue using coping skills every day. Anyways, for myself, I go for runs and I actually, I exercise, I go hiking nature, I listen to audiobooks because sometimes my life gets stressful. But putting myself into the story mode of the audio book, you know, it's, it's like taking a mental break. You know, I'm no longer in a stressful situation. I come back, headphones off, oh, it's a breather. It was like a little break, you know. And if you keep doing these small coping skills, they don't seem like big things.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:15:41] It keeps you in a good headspace so you're less likely to go into that mood where you have to hurt yourself or even so dark that you want to kill yourself. You know, we just do these little things every day, these coping skills.

John Dehlin [00:15:53] Yeah. One thing that I, when I was first getting, and I have a, I have a PhD in clinical and counseling psychology and I had clients who self harmed. And when I first started treating clients who self harmed self harmed, I thought my goal was to get them to stop self harming.

John Dehlin [00:16:10] And when they didn't, each time I'd be like, are there marks? Are they still doing it? And when I started working with my supervisor, I realized that is the wrong way to think about this, that your goal as a therapist isn't to necessarily take away their only coping mechanism. We talked about this in the longer episode. What my supervisors taught me is sometimes as awful as self harm might appear, it's actually preferable to the ultimate self harm, which is ending your life. And I had a supervisor once tell me, never take away a coping mechanism unless you've got a superior one to replace it with.

John Dehlin [00:16:49] Because if they have no coping mechanism, sometimes, believe it or not, self harm could be keeping someone alive. And I didn't think of it that way. So the goal isn't to eliminate the self harm or you may get a worse outcome or a worse form of coping. Instead what we just talked about is your goal is to decrease the harm over time, harm reduction and slowly replace it with healthier coping. But don't think of it as the goal is to stop the self harm all at once because you may not get good results. It may be harmful to the person.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:17:23] I agree, and I'm not a professional or anything, but I kind of look at self harm as a symptom of a deeper issue. So getting the person to stop self harming is not going to cure whatever caused them to do it in the first place. So I think we have to take a step back and look at their lives, you know, as a system, like what is going on everywhere, you know, and see if we can like figure out what is the issue. You know, for myself it was church and then my traumatic childhood. Once I said that I left the church and I set firm boundaries. My family, my life got so much better. My self harm went away, you know, and so we have to figure out what is causing the symptom of the, you know, what mental illness is causing something.

John Dehlin [00:18:05] So do a root cause analysis.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:18:06] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:18:07] And if you can address the underlying issues that are causing your distress, then that might, that might go a long way towards helping.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:18:15] Exactly. That would get rid of it itself, wouldn't it?

John Dehlin [00:18:17] It can, yeah, yeah, yeah. What is the. So some people are going to go, john, why are you interviewing a tick tocker? Like you have a PhD in psychology, why don't you have a professional one? Well, it's because she's making a big difference and she knows a lot, that's why. But also, what is the role of mental health professionals? Do you encourage people to see licensed mental health professionals, experts talk about that?

Kelceymarie Warner [00:18:37] I absolutely do. So people message me and like, hey, I want to do this. Like reach out to a hotline. If you're really struggling at this moment, contact this hotline. And I messaged them the hotline. I also have a link in my bio that has a list of hotlines for countries as well as a website for Cornell University. And after encouraging them to reach out to professionals, I also give them for other professionals that are on TikTok. I'm like, this person is on TikTok. They are a licensed therapist. This person's a psychologist I talk to. They're great. You can message them as well. They can't counsel you because you're a different state. But they can also give you more advice too. So I refer them to other professionals in their area and also online to follow, if that makes sense.

John Dehlin [00:19:16] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just to reiterate the importance of TikTok, there's a whole bunch of people that can't afford therapy.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:19:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:22] Or there are a bunch of therapists that aren't competent or that are too expensive or that are too busy, that have a huge backlog. And so one of the main values of TikTok with competent people who know what they're doing is it's an easy way for especially younger people who may not have access to proper healthcare and or can't afford it, can get help now in a format that they're comfortable with in a mode of consumption that's very friendly and familiar and easy to use. So why shouldn't we be encouraging mental health through TikTok?

Kelceymarie Warner [00:19:59] Right. Yeah, I agree, definitely. A lot of people that are my followers mentioned how they've had that therapist and they wish that I had been their therapist and go, for one thing, I'm not actually a therapist, I'm just a student. But you will be. I will be, yeah. I will be, yeah. But what you can do in the short term while you're waiting for a better therapist or you're waiting for insurance is you can educate yourself now. So you can't diagnose yourself with depression legally, but you can look into the symptoms and look into coping skills. Same thing with anything else. It's good to educate yourself. So that way, when it's time to go to the doctor or the therapist or whatever, you can say, I'm feeling this way. Here's my thoughts about what I read. What are your thoughts? What plan can we make together to make me healthier?

John Dehlin [00:20:40] Are there, are there like experts or books or resources that in addition to yours, people should know about? Kind of the self. Self harm gurus out there. Are you aware of any?

Kelceymarie Warner [00:20:51] I haven't seen a whole lot of recent books in a self harm. I've been reading them, but I don't love them enough to send them to people just because they're very analytical, which is fine. But a lot of my readers aren't academically inclined. They're very young. You know, a lot of my viewers are young kids.

John Dehlin [00:21:07] There's not a self harm for dummies kind of thing.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:21:08] There's not. So I'm doing research to write one, but I haven't actually written.

John Dehlin [00:21:12] Interesting.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:21:13] Yeah, it's kind of a newer.

John Dehlin [00:21:15] It's kind of a newer area. No, it's been around forever, but there's not been a lot of focus on it.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:21:21] Right. There was one that I read, but the reviews, you know, weren't great overall in my opinion. People didn't want the. People didn't like the terminology, like self mutilation. It sounds very graphic, you know, and it was just very academically oriented. So I don't have any books off the top of my head that I love. But I do have tick tockers that I recommend people follow like Rise, Thrive, Repeat therapist named Tristan in Virginia. He's excellent. Jazz Thornton, you know, just people on top of my head. I do recommend people to follow these

John Dehlin [00:21:55] people and this Cornell website, that's helpful.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:21:57] Oh absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:21:58] And this has led to your creation of workbooks. So tell, tell listeners what your workbook, what your workbooks are and how they can get them.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:22:07] Okay. So I have a website and also have an Etsy.

John Dehlin [00:22:12] What are they called or how do they.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:22:14] The Sparrow's Box. The Sparrows box.

John Dehlin [00:22:17] Okay. That's your website?

Kelceymarie Warner [00:22:18] Yeah, I just like the name. You can also go to my TikTok and click the link in my bio. It's a link tree link. So like a million links on it. Click the one from my shop. And I develop a new journal each month and I do a lot of research into them. So I have them for anxiety, depression, self harm and PTSD right now and borderline personality disorder.

John Dehlin [00:22:39] And they're evidence based?

Kelceymarie Warner [00:22:40] And they're evidence based, Absolutely. So I do research for each journal and then I also send them to people who are diagnosed with these things simply so I can have their feedback in addition to the research. So maybe I'll like do a lot of reading and I'll like look into what journal prompts will be relevant for borderline personality disorder. It's not gonna be the same for anxiety, you know. And so then I send the journal to some people, like, what are your thoughts? Use this for 30 days. Let me know what you think. So for example, the self harm one. Just because I feel most comfortable talking about it because it's kind of my niche.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:23:11] They are 30 days and they come with mental health hotlines for your country, whether it's Israel or the UK or America. I get you a page for it. And I also send a list of coping skills, my most popular ones people recommend, as well as a link to the Cornell University website because I love the most. And then I also have a page for triggers and solutions. So you write down what triggers you the most, whether it's like talking to A certain person, a store because something happens there, you know, and then your solutions for it. So if something happens, you know what you can do.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:23:40] And then it's 30 days of mindful journal prompts that are meant to help you move forward. So it'll have boxes like what coping skill I tried, did it work? Why didn't it work? Or why did it work? So you can kind of get an idea and know yourself better, what your needs are as well as keep track of what you have tried. So when you go to your therapist, they say, what'd you try this week? You're like, oh, I can't remember. It's like, oh, it's right here, it's right here in front of me, you know. And I also have sections for people to keep track of who they contacted, how that person responded as well.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:24:13] Just so you can work on your support system because support systems are essential with mental health. And you don't ever have to ever have to worry about bothering someone because you know that you didn't contact them for like five days and that's like once a week. That's fine, you know, you're not a bother. And more than that, I have also created different designs. So those one, like smaller for like backpack sizes for kids taking to school or take them to work with you.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:24:38] I've also got them for themes I get requests for like Harry Potter, Hogwarts houses or Taylor Swift or something, you know, So I just try to make sure that they are very user friendly and helpful. So after like a month I'll get like an email like, hi, what are your thoughts on this? How can I make it better? So each month I also improve on the previous ones I made.

John Dehlin [00:25:00] So, and overall, what have been people's experiences with these workbooks? How has that helped them and if so, how?

Kelceymarie Warner [00:25:07] Overall, very positive. One of the best reviews I got was from a girl. She messaged me asking for an aerial themed one. I'm like, okay, I can do that. And then she emailed me like three months later saying, hi, my friend just got out of the psych ward.

John Dehlin [00:25:20] Ariel, as in Little Mermaid.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:25:21] Little Mermaid. And so I made a Little Mermaid one and I sent it to her friend who was in a psych ward. Her friend of course, couldn't have it till after she finished her, you know, time in the psych ward. But her friend told her it had been a huge help because I helped her realize what worked and what didn't work. And she used it every day just to keep track of her moods and it was an amazing tool. And that's the whole point of journaling was just to be a tool to fight and combat self harm, you know?

John Dehlin [00:25:48] Yeah.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:25:49] So yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:50] And just to be clear, we're not getting any money for this. This isn't a paid sponsorship. We simply when, when we discover cool things that help people, we want to promote it. And that's the only reason we're doing this. And it's a credit to you for all your good work.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:26:03] Thank you. I do a lot of research into it and spend hours a day making these and I send some out free when I can. Like if maybe people ask, they can donate money to help send out free journals to kids because.

John Dehlin [00:26:16] Yeah. How can people support you?

Kelceymarie Warner [00:26:18] Well, making a donations page that is just for the journals. So that means like if there's a 12 year old kid whose parents won't buy them one, well, I can make it to you and send it to you tomorrow, you know, if your parents are okay with your address being given out. And so that should be up by the end of the month. I'm trying to figure out a page that is just for that, you know.

John Dehlin [00:26:35] Okay.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:26:36] If you have any ideas, let me know, you know. Okay. Yeah. All right.

John Dehlin [00:26:40] Okay. Any. So just to close. For someone who's struggling, who's in the thick of kind of self harm and they're feeling hopeless and they're feeling lost and discouraged, final word of encouragement or

Closing Encouragement and Resources

Kelceymarie Warner [00:26:55] support for them, it gets better. It really does. I know it may not seem like it right now, but with the boundaries and coping skills, you will experience so much more joy than you ever thought yourself capable. And I look back on times in my life when I was self harming or considering suicide. I had no idea the incredible places I would go, the people I would meet, the little children that I would create and love more than myself. It does get better.

John Dehlin [00:27:22] And you can get better, can get better. And for a parent or loved one that's seeing their loved one in pain and suffering and they don't know how to reach them or help them, final tips or advice or encouragement for them.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:27:34] I know it's really hard and it's scary. I used to wonder every day if I walk in and see my sister dead, you know, because she struggled as well. And there are a lot of incredible support groups out there for parents, people who you can lean on and you know, improve your support system. My biggest advice is for parents is to listen without judgment because there's something going on in your kid's life. You just maybe you don't see it yet, you know, so just listen and watch and love unconditionally.

John Dehlin [00:28:07] It sounds so simple, but it's.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:28:10] Yeah, it's a simple message, but it works.

John Dehlin [00:28:13] It's hard, but it sounds so simple. Yeah. Beautiful. Well, thank you so much for coming on. Thanks for all the work you do. Please tell our listeners one final time how they, how they find you and your resources.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:28:24] Okay, so my website is www.the sparrows box. So the T H E Sparrow S P A R R O W S box B O x dot com. Sorry if that was long. And there's also my tick tock, which is just my name. So it's Kelsey K dash E L C E Y. Kelsey Marie Warner. Should be pretty easy to find.

John Dehlin [00:28:49] And then you've also got a discord and a Facebook, right?

Kelceymarie Warner [00:28:52] Yes. The Facebook is called welcome to the panic Room and the Discord. I can't remember the name actually, but it's linked in my bio from TikTok.

John Dehlin [00:29:03] So your link tree.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:29:04] In my link tree, yeah, on TikTok.

John Dehlin [00:29:06] All right, well, thanks so much for all you're doing. Thanks for coming on. And listeners get help, whether it's through Kelsey or a licensed mental health professional. Find an expert in self harm because most, most significant mental illnesses really do require an expert to get better. A generalist just isn't going to be what you need. But work with Kelsey, find an expert, have hope and you can do this. And thanks so much again, Kelsey.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:29:33] Yeah, thank you so much. It's been really great.

John Dehlin [00:29:35] All right.

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