Introduction and Episode Overview

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 798

John Dehlin [00:00:02] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking the Donate button on the top right side of the page. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support. Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is September 13, 2017, it's four o' clock sharp in the afternoon and I am so very honored and excited to be able to join with you to be discussing what I think is one of the most important issues in, let's just say 2010, 2015 timeframe in the United States. Today the issue of discussion is going to be drug addiction and specifically in this episode, opiate addiction and Opiate recovery. So we'll be interviewing a courageous young man who was raised as a devout Mormon and his name is Thomas and he is willing to publicly talk about how being sexually abused as a five year old, about having his brother commit suicide, and about how shaming messages around sexuality and masturbation as a teen from his perspective led to drug use, ultimately opiate use and opiate addiction. That's going to be the main topic. In addition, we're going to be talking about recovery from opiate addiction. That's obviously maybe one of the most important parts is not just to talk about the difficult journey, but how to get better. This will be a multi part series on Mormon Stories Podcast, so expect us to be doing additional interviews. If you've got a story about drug use, opioid use, addiction recovery, we want to consider it. So feel free to email us@mormonstoriesmail.com as always, one of the ways that we pay the bills with Mormon Stories Podcast is do some very brief announcements. So I'll do really quick. Please follow us on Instagram and Twitter ormistories. That would be awesome. Please like right now, please like our Facebook page Mormon Stories Podcast and if you're willing to please give us a positive review on the Mormon Stories Podcast Facebook page and if you're even willing to do more, go to itunes and give us a positive review there. Those reviews are really helpful. Of course if you value these programs, please consider giving us signing up for a monthly donation@mormonstories.org just 10, 15, $20 a month can keep this Podcast alive very quickly. We have several really exciting events coming up and some of them are new, so please pay attention. Tomorrow, September 14th and 15th, I'll be in Seattle, Washington to do a Mormon Stories workshop there. Can't be more excited about that. We're going to be doing a really fun party on Friday night in Seattle and we are super excited. New announcement October 27th in Utah County. We're going to be doing a workshop on finding spirituality and improving mental health during and after a faith crisis. This is something we're trying new. Instead of just doing a two and a half day retreat or some type of workshop in another state, we're going to be bringing shorter workshops to Utah. So again, October 27, fighting spirituality, improving mental health during and after a faith crisis in Utah county. We're doing San Francisco, the Bay Area, November 9th through 10th. We're excited about that. And then here's the second new announcement. We're going to do a half day workshop November 17th on healthy relationships within Mormon post Mormon contact. So that's healthy marriages, communicating with believing family and friends, raising healthy children, all that sort of stuff. So again, October 27th is the full day workshop on spirituality and mental health in and after religious transition. November 17 Healthy Relationships Half day workshop in Utah county. You go to mormonstories.org events to register for those events. As soon as that event page is up. Feel free to email us if you have questions. Of course, we're accepting nominations now for events in 2018@mormonstoriesmail.com and don't forget the Mormon Stories cruise to the Bahamas October 24 through 28. All right, that is all the announcements we have. It looks like we already have 31 people joining us through Facebook Live. Live listeners, I just want to welcome you. Thank you for joining us. And I want to please invite you all to post your questions and comments on the Facebook live stream because we would love to have this dialogue be interactive and incorporate your comments and questions into the episode. So without any further ado, grateful for your patience, Thomas. Welcome to Mormon Stories Podcast.

Thomas Introduces Himself

Thomas [00:05:55] Thank you, John. Excited to be here.

Understanding Addiction From the Outside

John Dehlin [00:05:58] All right, so I guess I wanted to begin with what was my first question when I talked to you just a few minutes ago, which is I've never tried drugs. I think a lot of Mormons and post Mormons haven't tried drugs. Some have maybe tried marijuana, but it's a world that is completely foreign to me. So I'm just going to be honest. I'm coming to you with like complete ignorance. Never tried marijuana, never Tried anything. Never really. I've never really spoken in depth with someone who is a recovering drug addict about their drug use. So I'm going to be asking you really new and naive questions, and I'm just going to ask your forgiveness in advance about that.

Thomas [00:06:45] That's fine.

John Dehlin [00:06:46] And the first naive question I'm going to ask is, why would anyone, and specifically why would you be willing to talk about such a sensitive topic in a public forum?

Thomas [00:07:01] I think that. I think that I've, you know, I struggled with this so long that it's not. I've just accepted that it's. It's a part of who I am. And I, you know, I would like people to kind of be educated on the reality of, you know, drug addiction. There's a lot of misconceptions surrounding that. And, you know, I'm just. I. Maybe I'm kind of an open person anyway, but I love it.

John Dehlin [00:07:37] Well, I just want to let you know, I mean, anyone who's paying attention to the news in 2017 will know, or if they're paying attention to their family and friends, that there is a nationwide. I guess I want to say epidemic. Correct me if it's a poor use of words, but there's a nationwide epidemic in opiate addiction, both heroin and prescription drug medication, and it's rampant in Utah specifically, maybe even more rampant here than elsewhere. I don't know for sure. Is that your understanding?

Thomas [00:08:14] Yeah, yeah. My understanding is that there is quite an epidemic occurring in Utah and that, yeah, there's. It's a big problem here, I think. I don't know, maybe someone can look this up, but I'm pretty sure that Utah has one of the, I don't know, a really high rate for abuse of prescription medications, I believe, but I'm not certain.

John Dehlin [00:08:44] Yeah, I think that's. I think that's the case. So thank you so much. Heartfelt for your willingness to tell your story.

Thomas [00:08:52] Oh, you're welcome.

Thomas's Mormon Upbringing and Early Childhood

John Dehlin [00:08:53] Okay, so with that, let's just begin, you know, tell us. Tell us about your Mormon background and your background as a child and a teenager, just so that we can understand kind of, you know, kind of a bit about you and kind of what led to this experience for you.

Thomas [00:09:14] Yeah, so I come from a very orthodox Mormon family. Both my parents were born and raised in the church we have.

John Dehlin [00:09:27] What states were your parents raised?

Thomas [00:09:31] My. My father was raised in Washington a little bit, and my mom, I think just here in California. Okay. San Diego area. Okay. Yeah. But.

John Dehlin [00:09:44] And where did they. Where. Where did they raise you? Where were you raised primarily?

Thomas [00:09:47] So Southern California is where I've spent my whole life.

John Dehlin [00:09:51] Got it. Okay.

Thomas [00:09:52] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:54] And a big, a big family, if I'm not mistaken.

Thomas [00:09:56] Yeah. Huh. Yeah. So I have six brothers and one sister and I'm the fifth child, so kind of in the middle there.

John Dehlin [00:10:08] So a family of eight, is that right? Eight children, Is that right?

Thomas [00:10:11] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:10:12] And just to be clear, talk to us about the level of orthodoxy in your family growing up before we go back and talk about the things that contributed to the drug use.

Thomas [00:10:23] Yeah, sure. So we were expected to, you know, attend church every Sunday. All three hours was expected. You know, seminary was required. You know, we, we had family home evening. You know, it was the whole, the whole thing, I guess. You know, I wasn't forced to read my scriptures or anything like that. But, you know, my parents lived the gospel very closely, and that's how they kind of centered their family, you know, around the church.

John Dehlin [00:11:05] And what, what were their teachings about word of wisdom growing up?

Thomas [00:11:10] Well, neither, my parents had any experience at all with word of wisdom stuff. So I, you know, honestly, John, I don't think they ever, they did not ever anticipate actually that they would have such a big word of wisdom problem with their children, with, with four of their, their sons. And so, you know, I don't know, it wasn't really talked about. Um, we weren't, we weren't allowed to, you know, to drink coffee or tea, you know, anything like that. But drugs and stuff, you know, we were never like, warned against that.

John Dehlin [00:11:56] Got it. I'm gonna just throw in a quick comment from our listeners. Mark writes, I'm an 11 year police veteran, six years in Dallas, Texas, five years here in Utah. I find way more drugs here than I saw in Dallas, especially heroin. Now, we should note that in your story. You're growing up in Southern California. I think the point is that this issue is just very relevant to Mormons.

Thomas [00:12:21] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:12:21] Which I think is the point.

Thomas [00:12:23] Yeah. That's crazy.

John Dehlin [00:12:24] Okay, so definitely devout Mormon home where the word of wisdom was emphasized and orthodoxy. So tell us what in your mind, what experiences led to you through feeling like drugs were something you wanted to try?

Thomas [00:12:40] So I think that, you know, I guess what's kind of interesting is that, you know, at first it wasn't like, you know, one day I decided that because of the struggles I had as a child that, you know, I needed to go try drugs. There was no conscious relation. Okay. So it wasn't until later, you know, with a lot of therapy and understanding, kind of, you know, just. I don't know, just kind of the way my mind has kind of worked and been affected by, you know, my abuse and stuff. Did I learn that there was actually a very direct connection, but really the being sexually abused part and the effects that that had on me were profound. It changed my whole entire life. It made me a different person.

Experiencing Sexual Abuse and Its Lasting Impact

John Dehlin [00:13:53] So without going to details, at age five, you experienced sexual abuse, right?

Thomas [00:13:59] Yeah, somewhere between five and six years old.

John Dehlin [00:14:02] Okay. And how long did that last, or as much as you're aware of?

Thomas [00:14:07] I'm not sure. Yeah, I'm not. I'm not even certain how long it lasted.

John Dehlin [00:14:11] Was it one. So was it possibly just one time? Are you pretty sure?

Thomas [00:14:15] Yeah, it could have been. It could have been one time. I'm not sure. You know, you know, people had. Some people have experiences where they were abused. Like, I have family members who were abused multiple times sexually or had multiple sexual experiences, and that hasn't done a thing to them. Yeah, but then you have some people who have one experience, and they just. It affects them differently, you know, so I'm not certain, but I know that. I mean, it was very clear how it affected me was. Was very, very evident.

John Dehlin [00:14:55] So how did. How did being sexually abused affect you as a child, As a growing child?

Thomas [00:15:02] So the way I like to describe it is, if you could imagine, you know, a little child does not think about sexual. You know, there is no word. There is no sexuality right there. There's no such thing. What. So what happened was being sexualized at an age that. That shouldn't be introduced. My. My innocence was sort of taken from me, and I became. I just became a sexual being at a very young age. That's. That's how I would describe it. And. And I. And I just sought out that sexual interaction with other males.

John Dehlin [00:15:53] And that's something that is. I hear that people who are sexually abused, well, in some cases become abusers. But. But what I'm hearing from you is they just start thinking of themselves as sexual beings or as their worth or identity coming from sexuality, even, you know, even before they awaken as sexual beings. Is that kind of what you're saying?

Thomas [00:16:21] Yeah. Yes. Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:16:23] Okay. And so you, because of that experience, you as a child, would seek out people who were interested in that sort of. Is that right?

Thomas [00:16:33] Yeah. Other. Yeah. So other. Other boys. There isn't one friend I can. I can think of just when I was a young boy first doing these sexual things, not one of my friends that I would either, you know, sleep over at their house, or I was on the soccer team with, or all of my friends was sexually interacting with. Now, somebody might say, you know, that, you know, oh, it's normal for. It's normal for little kids to play doctor, and it's normal for that sort of experimentation to take place, which is true, but we're talking about an entirely different. You know, we're not talking about just a couple occasions of curiosity. We're talking about having a deep sort of drive. And, you know, I mean, it literally was a part of my identity. Does that make sense? It was. That other half of myself was. It was a secret part of my identity, and no one could ever guess, but it was a part of me, and it was important to me.

John Dehlin [00:17:55] And was this something you ever got caught doing as a kid or, you know, someone told on you or your parents found out or anything like that?

Thomas [00:18:03] Yeah, you know, I had a couple experiences with my mom or my dad kind of, you know, walking in on me, you know, but I. Doing something with another boy. But it wasn't. I. I honestly don't think that they. I think they just thought it was, you know, boys, quit being naughty. You know, it's just like they thought it was probably just experimenting, but little did they know that it was much, much deeper than that. And it's kind of interesting, John, because my. Everybody who, you know, my whole family and people who knew our family, I was like the angelic child. You would never guess that anything was wrong with me. I hid it very well.

John Dehlin [00:18:58] And when your parents found out about this, it was just like a slap on the wrist or no big deal. Like, I'm wondering in a Mormon context why it wasn't catastrophic to them.

Thomas [00:19:12] I think. I think the mentality was just, oh, you know, these. You know, they're. They're just. They're just little kids. They don't even know what they're doing. You know, they're not, you know, just a little slap on the wrist. It wasn't. I got in trouble, but it wasn't like. It wasn't some big topic of discussion. It was just like, don't do that. That's not appropriate. We don't, you know, expose ourselves.

John Dehlin [00:19:37] Okay, so at least from your parents, it wasn't, you're evil, you're dirty, you're terrible. No, I mean, that's good. I'm just gonna say that sounds.

Thomas [00:19:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:45] Positive.

Thomas [00:19:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:46] Okay. So. And. And. And if you're comfortable sharing, did any of the sexual experimentation happen, like, in a Mormon context, like, with Mormon boys? At Boy Scout camp? Cub Scouts? Or was it with non members and sort of outside a church context?

Thomas [00:20:02] No, no, the. The church was. Because the church was so involved in my life growing up. I. I mean, everything you just stated was the case involved with, you know, other boys at church scouts? Yeah. Oh, yeah, the whole thing.

John Dehlin [00:20:22] Okay, cool. Not cool. I mean, that's.

Thomas [00:20:26] No, that's. I get it.

John Dehlin [00:20:27] Yeah. That's good to know. And it makes sense. Cause Mormons tend to hang around Mormons. That's just what we do.

Thomas [00:20:33] Absolutely.

A Brother's Death and Its Aftermath

John Dehlin [00:20:34] So how did this grow? Okay, so talk about. I think your brothers passing maybe is the next thing to talk about in the chronology.

Thomas [00:20:42] Yeah. So I guess it's important to note that that that's the sexual abuse and the effects that it had on me. It was not like just in my, you know, really young childhood that, That I was doing sexual experimentation and then it stopped one day. Not whatsoever. So the whole entire, like, while everything else is going on, this sexual side of me was not only going on, but becoming more intense, more involved and a bigger problem than it was before, if that makes sense. But When I was 8 years old, my oldest brother was 15, turning 16, 16 at the time, and he. He took his life. And, you know, it obviously changed our. Our family dynamic forever. Although I was only eight years old. You know, we know that, you know, when something traumatic happens in a child's life, even a baby's life, they are and can be affected, even if they don't remember, you know, specifically, you know, they might not remember a traumatic experience necessarily, and it will still and can still affect them.

John Dehlin [00:22:17] But you were eight, so certainly you remember the funeral and that.

Thomas [00:22:21] Yeah, yes. Yeah, I do. I actually. I actually received the phone call. I think it was after school one day. I'm not sure, but I received a phone call of a girl. I think she was a friend of my brother's. And she was very panicked and she was saying, you know, are your parents home? Your brother's hurt. He's really hurt. I need to talk to one of your parents right now. None of my parents were home, so. But my. My older brother was. And so he. He ran out of the house. He. My brother. My brother shot himself at. At my elementary school, actually, which was right down the street. So. Yeah, anyways, so. But I remember.

John Dehlin [00:23:14] Oh, go ahead.

Thomas [00:23:15] Sorry. Go ahead.

John Dehlin [00:23:16] Is there any. Was there any indication as to what was tormenting him?

Thomas [00:23:20] He had severe depression, and depression runs in my family, very much so. And he just, you know, he was the first child, I think that my parents were very much still learning how to. How to, you know, properly parent a child and not be too extreme. You know, I know for a fact that the, The Mormon values. Right. And, and, and morals that my parents had stuck by their whole lives, they expected right out of their children. And because they never had experience with like, you know, smoking or drinking, this experiment, experimentation, they had no idea what to even do with that. When my, when my older brother started getting into, you know, smoking and stuff, they had no idea. And they, they only reacted in the way that they knew. And I just think they were probably a little bit harder than. They certainly have let up a lot now because they've learned a lot through their children, but not in any way

John Dehlin [00:24:32] to put the blame on your parents. But I mean, you know, we have to look at what, what factors might and might not contribute or we don't learn anything from it.

Thomas [00:24:40] Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:24:41] So you're thinking that the harshness or the rules of Mormonism and the guilt and the shame may be piled on top of maybe a predisposition for depression anyway.

Thomas [00:24:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:52] Could have, could have pushed your brother over the edge.

Thomas [00:24:55] Yeah, he. I think he also had just had a change in his depressant. Antidepressants.

John Dehlin [00:25:02] I've heard that.

Thomas [00:25:02] Yeah. Yeah, so at least that's what my mom told me. She kind of thinks was kind of contributing to that.

John Dehlin [00:25:14] So hard. Okay, so. So I can only imagine how that might have affected you growing up, huh?

Thomas [00:25:20] Yeah, I, I just remember it being, you know, it just, you know, I don't think my dad had to really give his attention and support to my mom a lot because she just basically became dead inside, you know, she couldn't function for a while, actually. And I think that, I don't know, I think for everybody in the family, we could have used more support than we received at that time, but what are you going to do? You know, And I'm not saying anyone did anything wrong. I'm just saying, like, you know, how could my parents give as much support as, you know, they themselves were suffering greatly. Right. So it must have been hard for them to kind of take care of us as well. And I'm not saying that they neglected us. That's not what I'm saying.

John Dehlin [00:26:34] Right. Okay, so how is this. So how is this affecting you as you. As you start entering into your young teen years?

Thomas [00:26:43] I think that my brother's suicide specifically served as an example to me. As twisted as that sounds, it told me that, hey, look, this is a way out when feeling tormented and, you know, if my brother did it and he could go through with it, I could too. And so it kind of served as an example. But on the same token, I always had that when I had, you know, when I was having suicidal ideations. I would also kind of weigh in that factor of, you know, if I did this, my mom would never recover. I mean, with a second child, I mean, my family would never recover. Like, this would just be devastating. And that kind of held me back at times as well. So.

John Dehlin [00:27:50] Yeah, so you saw what suicide can do to parents and to families, and maybe it made you committed to not following in your brother's footsteps to a degree.

Thomas [00:28:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:04] Tom writes, antidepressants can lead to suicide and homicide. I would maybe say be associated with suicide and homicide or correlate with suicide and homicide, just to try and be technically a bit more accurate. Tom writes, the shootings in Springfield, Oregon and Columbine were by some attributed to antidepressants. That's interesting feedback from Tom. Raina writes, much love to you, Thomas. Sorry to hear about your abuse and losing your brother.

Thomas [00:28:36] Thank you, Reyna.

John Dehlin [00:28:37] So listen, listeners are sending some love and support.

Thomas [00:28:41] Thank you.

The Church's Sexual Messaging and Adolescent Shame

John Dehlin [00:28:42] Okay, let's talk about how, as you start becoming a young teen and progressing in the church as a young adult, as a youth, how the church's sexual messages might or might not have also added fuel to the fire, so to speak.

Thomas [00:28:57] Yeah, so. So prior to becoming a deacon in the church, which is 12 years old, right? Isn't it 12 years old you become a deacon?

John Dehlin [00:29:11] It is.

Thomas [00:29:14] Prior to that, I didn't understand the gravity of the sexual escapades, if you will, that I was. That I was involved with. I could describe it like this. I didn't even know why I was doing those sexual things. It just. It felt as if I was born that way and it was second nature to me. So I didn't know why I. I did them. I just knew that I did do them. I had to do them. I enjoyed doing them. And it felt good. And I. That's all I knew. I didn't. It wasn't like I received some choice where it was like, you know, where I got to like, think, okay, do I really want to do this? Do I really want to, like, become this sexual. I never got that choice. It was just like, it was put on me. And when I went into deacons quorum and we started having actual lessons, you know, you know, not primary lessons and, you know, when we talk about. When we talk about sort of morality and chastity, and during bishop interviews. Right. Because at 12, you really start meeting with the bishop. At least. At least I did, in my word. Right. Because deacons can go to the temple to do baptisms.

John Dehlin [00:30:50] Right?

Thomas [00:30:51] Yeah. So. So it was at this time that I realized that the things I was doing were in the church's eyes, according to the church, next to murder, in a way. And specifically with masturbation, my. You know, anytime I would meet with the bishop, one of the main, you know, questions here was, are you masturbating? Do you have a masturbation problem? Now, even though I did masturbate, I was never gonna admit it. But what's kind of interesting is that because of that. Of that focus on do not masturbate, masturbation is a sin. It's. It's equivalent to having sex with yourself. Basically.

John Dehlin [00:31:51] That's.

Thomas [00:31:51] That's what I grew up to understand. Because of that, masturbation was the first thing I ever got depressed over. And that's really weird because had already done so much worse, you know, worse than just masturbating. Sexually speaking. I had already gone much further than that as a child. But because of that emphasis put on do not masturbate, this is a sin that became a huge source of depression. And I despised myself over. Over it because I couldn't help not masturbating. Now, the other thing that. The other thing that I kind of picked up from the messaging in the church is that I was addicted to masturbating. And it's just bizarre looking back and thinking that I believed that I was addicted to masturbation. That. You know, when we're talking about addiction, we're talking about something that you have that. That affects the rest of your life. Something that you cannot go without. It wasn't like that. So I just.

John Dehlin [00:33:12] Yeah, I just want to say that one of the. I'm sorry to interrupt your story.

Thomas [00:33:15] No, you're fine.

John Dehlin [00:33:16] I worked as a. As a therapist at the Utah State University Counseling center for probably six years. And in one capacity or another, or at least I worked with USU college students for six years. 80% of them are Mormon. And I was so shocked whenever a young returned missionary would come in or a young woman would come in and they would say, I'd say, hi, thanks for coming. What are you here for? And they'd say, well, I just want you to know, I'm an addict. I've been sober for three weeks. I'm really fighting this addiction. And then I would say, oh, my gosh, what can you tell me More about your addiction. And they're like, yeah, I go to a 12 step program sponsored by the church my wife attends with me. I masturbate. We're laughing. But they.

Thomas [00:34:15] Yeah, no, I know, I know.

John Dehlin [00:34:16] Many of these young men and women were suicidal over that label of being an addict because it's such a shaming. It's a heavy label and a charged label.

Thomas [00:34:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:30] And you're saying in your mind, masturbating occasionally doesn't qualify in the same category as other types of addiction. Is that true?

Thomas [00:34:40] Absolutely not. It's a normal part of growing up and it's just, you know, but also

John Dehlin [00:34:48] like, like fight the new drug. You know, they like to say that certain parts of your brain light up when you're looking at porn and masturbating. Just like cocaine or meth.

Thomas [00:34:58] Yeah, right.

John Dehlin [00:35:00] Is it, Is it chemically and physiologically the same thing?

Thomas [00:35:05] From my experience, yeah, there's. There was certainly. As a 12 year old boy, there was certainly a, you know, fascination with it and a pleasure center reward, if you will, but not on the same level whatsoever as drugs, you know, And

John Dehlin [00:35:25] I'm just going to say the drugs activate the pleasure centers of the brain just like orgasms do. So. Yes, yes, they're similar in the sense that they both make you feel really good. Orgasms and heroin or meth or whatever. That doesn't mean that masturbation has the same effect on the brain as hard drugs, right?

Thomas [00:35:48] No. Yeah, not at all.

John Dehlin [00:35:51] Not at all.

Thomas [00:35:51] Not at all.

John Dehlin [00:35:52] Okay. I didn't mean to derail you. I'm just saying.

Thomas [00:35:54] No, no, no.

John Dehlin [00:35:55] This is a very serious issue confronting. We talk about LGBT epidemics in this podcast and in Mormonism and what we almost never talk about is the severe trial that so many young Mormon men and women face, feeling deep shame and guilt and stigma from something as innocent and as common.

Thomas [00:36:21] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:36:22] As masturbation. Okay, keep going. I'm sorry, Keep going.

Thomas [00:36:25] No, no. Can I kind of add to that a little bit, please? I, you know, although I giggled. I mean, I, I personally experienced that too, just at a younger age that I, that, that I thought I was just the worst person on earth because I masturbated. So I didn't mean in any way to, to kind of offend anybody, because I experienced that, that shame as well. But it's just really sad that, that, that so many people, probably almost everyone. Okay. Because almost everybody has or does masturbate in some form, especially when you're going through puberty and whatnot, that we have to make that become such a shameful thing. I mean, you know, my friends and I, I remember, we thought we were all addicts, okay. And we thought as 12 year old, 13 year old boys and we kind of banded together to have accountability to one another to not masturbate anymore. Right. Well, the punishment for if you did slip up was, you know, getting shot with a paintball gun, point blank with your shirt off on your back for masturbating. There was this, this sort of self harm thing going on, like that's how seriously we took it and how much shame we felt when we did masturbate. And it's just such a shame that that has to be the case. So one thing I. Yeah, it's, it's tough.

John Dehlin [00:38:10] I'll just, I'll just add a couple comments from listeners. Mark writes, as a porn addict and police officer that deals with drug addicts, I find a major factor to addiction in the Mormon community is the demonization and ostracizing of people who may slightly experiment with something forbidden. Then they feel so dirty or bad for having a drink or looking at a pornographic image and having no one to talk to without being treated like a pariah. It becomes so easy to just go extreme. Super great comment from Mark. Thank you, Mark. Dan writes, when my assistant scoutmaster began molesting me at age 11, I had no psychological construct for sexuality. That sounds similar to some of the things you were thinking and feeling, Thomas. And then Becca writes, as a mother, I'd rather have a child with a masturbation addiction than an opium addiction. So that's Becca's perspective. Okay, Thomas, let's get back to your story. Yes, it's great, thank you.

Thomas [00:39:15] Yeah. So John, I forgot to mention before we get too far that growing up in the church with this drive and desire from my sexual abuse to, excuse me, sexually act out with other males had me convinced that I was gay so much that, you know, from the ages of, you know, six, five or six, although I didn't know what it meant to be gay at that time, but I knew I carried things, I wanted to carry things out with other males. But from, from 5 or 6 to until I was about 17, probably 17 years old, I was convinced I was gay. And because of that I bore the shame and the guilt and just the hardship of growing up in the church and hearing comments, you know, just people making comments that have no idea what the hell they're talking about. And I'm sitting there, you know, silently kind of suffering that, you know, they're talking about me. That's, that's how, you know, that's how I felt.

John Dehlin [00:40:42] Although.

Thomas [00:40:43] Although I. Although I am not gay, I took those offensive comments as if I was gay in this very same way. I'm. I'm actually identify as bisexual, but I was convinced that I was gay because I didn't understand that just because I, I was sexually and physically attracted to males just because of that, that didn't make me a gay man. That, that doesn't make me gay. It was, it was. It was purely from my sexual abuse by another male. That, and being sexually activated by a male that, you know, that just was instilled in me from a very young age. And even to this day, I, you know, and now I. It's. It's taken a long time to come to terms with and be proud of who I am and own who I am in confidence. I haven't. I've never stated this publicly, by the way, that I am bisexual. This is my first time doing that. But, you know, it's. It. It was just really, really difficult for a long time. And I didn't understand until I was in therapy, you know, when I was 17 years old that, you know, my therapist telling me that I wasn't gay, I was like, oh, my gosh, like, for all these years, I. I've taken that upon myself, like I was gay. But even. Even just being bisexual, I think there are some of the same kind of offensive, you know, things said that even if you identify as bisexual, that are going to be offensive to you. I don't know if we should get into it later talking about Prop 8,

John Dehlin [00:42:34] but let's not now in your story, but unless it affected your journey as a youth, because you were in California when that happened.

Thomas [00:42:44] Yeah, that was later on, though, after I was already using drugs.

John Dehlin [00:42:48] Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So you've got the extra stigma of thinking that you're gay. And we all know that the church talks about LGBT people in heinous ways sometimes.

Thomas [00:43:00] Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:43:01] So that's just an intense amount to carry as a youth. Your brother's suicide, sexual abuse, all the stigma around masturbation. You, like we're carrying, you may as well been black or Native American, and you would have had. And a woman, and you would have had been carrying pretty much every major shame or stigma that Mormonism carries.

Thomas [00:43:21] Yeah, that's actually an interesting way to say that. I did feel like I had a backpack of bricks that I was carrying on my back and that nobody understood me and that nobody could help me. It was a very Lonely place to be in. I, I was convinced. Absolute. I mean, if people can maybe imagine this. I was convinced for years, you know, maybe until I was about 16 or something, that, that I was the sole person on earth who, who was like me. That's what I believed. I thought I was. I mean, I can't describe how lonely that felt. That I believed I was the only person who was like myself in that, in that I was very sexual with, with other, with other males. That I, that I had this masturbation addiction that I, I mean I just. And because of that I had a lot of self hatred and a lot of, you know, I just felt worthless.

John Dehlin [00:44:41] To add that this rhetoric about. You've already mentioned this, that sexual transgressions are worse. You know, next to murder and severity and all the Spencer W. Kimball miracle forgiveness garbage.

Thomas [00:44:53] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:44:55] All that rhetoric is still well alive in Mormon consciousness. You know, I remember on my mission when a missionary transgressed, the mission president pulled out the old quote saying I'd rather have my kid brought home in a pine box than return home without honor from his mission. You know, unbelievable. All that rhetoric is, you know, very much with us.

Thomas [00:45:21] Oh yes. Which is really too bad. And that really makes me conscious about protecting my children. I refuse to let them suffer with that messaging. I think maybe some people take for granted or maybe just don't really understand how children damaging these, this, these negative messages are. It's not just like, you know, oh, someone said something that is rude and you should just learn to brush it off. No. When you're developing as a child and you are, and when you're involved in the one and only true church and you're hearing these, you know, this messaging from your leaders and from people you respect and that you look up to, you believe it, you, you believe what they say is true and you take it upon yourself as such. So.

John Dehlin [00:46:24] Yeah. So any other, any other stories from your youth or adolescence to just illustrate the burden that you were carrying? Because to use drugs, you. I'm guessing that it's about self medication, anesthetizing the pain. And you've already given us a sense for how much pain you were experiencing. Any other stories or you know, experiences in your chronology that you want to share before we talk to what, you know, that first decision? You know.

Early Encounters With Drugs as a Teenager

Thomas [00:46:53] Yeah, I think that, I think I would just say and maybe underline again that. And it's not something that I necessarily feel comfortable getting into, you know, extreme detail, but the, the, the sexual things I was involved in from a very Young age are some of the heaviest things to ever carry on your shoulders, even though they took. Even though they took place. An innocent child. And I had no idea what was even. I didn't have any idea why I was doing these things. But I just want to, you know. You know, re mention that these things, I mean, still to this day bug me. I have a really hard time forgiving myself for a lot of things. And this is what. This is what sexual abuse does. I mean, it's. It's an. It's a nasty. It's a nasty thing. What it does to. To a developing child and even to grown, you know, grown adults who get raped or, you know, it's really horrible too. But anyways, those things were a daily source of sadness, of depression, of not wanting to live anymore. And as I went to. And this is leading up to the drug abuse, as I went to junior high and high school, my life sucked more than it ever had up to that point. Elementary school. John was out of my school years. The best time of my life. That's kind of sad. I was liked at my school. I. I mean, a ton of girls liked me, although I just wanted to be kind of more their friend at the time. I felt popular. I don't know, I felt enough social attention and acceptance that it helped offset the secret side to myself that I felt horrible over at that time. Okay. And so when junior high and high school come around and my social life takes. Takes a, you know, takes a dive, that's when it just becomes, you know, unbearable because I don't have any. I don't have anybody to connect with, nobody to feel. I don't know. I'm not experiencing any. Any love or affirmations from. From friends that. That I was surrounded with when I was younger really, really affected me. And I think I kind of put myself in that situation in. Starting in junior high, I kind of became introverted and I became. I don't know, I guess I feel like I became inferior to. To everybody. Like, I. I don't know if it was the hormones, you know, from puberty and whatnot, but I just felt like I slouched into this dark, like, lonely place. And I never got out of that all through the rest of my school school years. So in junior, and I'm sorry, in high school, when I was about 16 years old and it was my junior year in high school, I had about had enough of life. I mean. I mean, I was so over my life. I just felt like it was pointless. You know, it'd be 95 degrees outside in California. And every single day I would come to school with a long sleeve hoodie sweatshirt and have my hood on. And I would sit with my head down, my head in my arms, you know, just kind of like this all lunch. I mean, I, and, and when we'd have like break times and stuff, I just didn't want to be a part of the world anymore. It was too, it was too, too lonely, I guess. And again, I felt like I was the only person on earth that was like this. So I just, I stopped caring to impress people who expected, like, maybe my parents and, I don't know, maybe my teachers. And I just stopped trying to be that good angel, Angelic boy who doesn't have any, who doesn't, who doesn't abuse drugs like his older brothers, who doesn't, you know, who doesn't talk back to his parents, who goes to church, who is a valiant, you know, member of the church. I was sick of playing that role. I was done really quick.

John Dehlin [00:53:03] Did you try and talk to a bishop about all this and get the bishop's help?

Thomas [00:53:07] Oh, not, no, not until, no, not until I was about 17 or 18.

John Dehlin [00:53:13] So you didn't feel safe reaching out to a bishop? What about reaching out to your parents? Was there anything your parents could have done to help you or did you just feel too shameful to even talk to them?

Thomas [00:53:24] They, they could have, but I just, you know, I know they would have got. Got me into therapy, which eventually did end up happening, but prior to the prior, I mean, it was too late by the time I ended up getting therapy. As far as using, I was already using drugs and kind of full blown into it before I started receiving therapy. I just didn't feel comfortable talking to anybody about it.

John Dehlin [00:53:51] Okay. All right. Yeah, so that's hard when a kid doesn't feel safe talking to the people that should be there to help them the most. That's why when I talk to people about parenting, I just always say connection with your child is the most important thing. It's more important than rules, consequences, boundaries, discipline. It's. Does your child feel comfortable telling you the hard things?

Thomas [00:54:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:18] Yeah. There's no other important thing in parenting, more important thing?

Thomas [00:54:22] Oh, no, I totally agree. And something positive I can take from my experiences is that I will make sure, if it's the last thing I do, that my daughters feel like they can approach my wife and I and tell us anything. I want them to feel like, you know, we're friends, we have a sort of a Friend, relationship. We're the parents, of course. But I want them to feel safe in saying whatever they, you know, whatever they want around us, I want them to have that safe space. And I'm not saying my parents were bad people, you know, it's just they weren't on that level of understanding it. Okay. They still had some progressing to do, I guess.

John Dehlin [00:55:15] So tell us. Tell us. So you say that you just decided you're gonna stop playing this good boy role. How. What led to your first time using drugs?

Thomas [00:55:26] So technically, the first time I. The very first drug I ever, ever ingested was a painkiller.

John Dehlin [00:55:38] So it wasn't alcohol or marijuana.

Thomas [00:55:41] It was a painkiller. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:55:43] And how old are you at this point?

Thomas [00:55:45] I was. Well, this was a little bit previous to trying other drugs, so it was like when I was maybe, I don't know, 15.

John Dehlin [00:55:54] Okay, how'd you find a painkiller?

Thomas [00:55:59] It was actually given to me by one of my siblings.

John Dehlin [00:56:05] Okay.

Thomas [00:56:07] And I. I didn't even.

John Dehlin [00:56:10] Do, you know, do you know where they got it? And it doesn't even matter if it's your sibling. Is it, like, from a medicine cabinet? Was it their own prescription?

Thomas [00:56:19] Like, so that. That was. Okay, so I should say that in California, the pill epidemic, it's. I think, I believe it's rated as like, one of the pill capitals of the United States. And. And what I mean by that is illegal buying and selling of. I mean. Yeah. Of buying and selling hard drugs in prescription form. Okay. Whereas here in Utah, you are not going to. You are not going. It's very unlikely that you will find doctors that are crooked and who are willing to prescribe you anything harder than, you know, Vicodin or Percocet. Okay. But in California, we're talking about. We're talking about pills that if you don't know what you're doing, if you swallow this pill, it will shut off your respiratory system. Okay. Very, very potent, powerful drugs. So. So it was easier to come by these drugs, whether it was in somebody's medicine cabinet, whether it was bought off the street. So that's where it came from in general. Does that answer your question?

John Dehlin [00:57:37] Yeah, yeah. I just, you know, where do people get these drugs? And it sounds like it's. There are places where doctors are just way too liberal or just maybe doctors are totally conservative and thoughtful, but family members or friends, if they get access, people just need to be care. You know, we lock up guns in our society so that kids don't shoot other kids. Or.

Thomas [00:58:02] Yeah, maybe.

John Dehlin [00:58:04] Maybe opiates are things we should consider locking up too, right?

Thomas [00:58:10] 100%. In fact, I would like to say this. Anybody listening who, who doesn't already know this or understand this, you can bet that the, if you have any painkillers in your cap, in your medicine cabinet, that more than likely you know, your child will end up finding out about painkillers because it's so common in the schools and stuff. And if they are curious or they just want to try them, they're going to know where to go. And you really should not just leave them in your medicine cabinet.

John Dehlin [00:58:57] Doctors need to be more careful prescribing these things. Patients need to be very careful about accepting them into their home because I'm guessing they're over prescribed and overused. Then if you do have them in your home, lock them up and be super careful.

Thomas [00:59:16] Absolutely. Because if your child is not experimenting with those drugs or doesn't ever want those drugs, you can also bet that more than likely one of their friends at one point in time will check your medicine cabinet when they're hanging out at your house. I know that sounds crazy, but trust me, that's. It's very common.

First Use of Opiates and the Nature of the High

John Dehlin [00:59:45] Okay, so you, and when you receive that pill, what was the context? Why would someone give you a pill? Was it like, hey, hey, try this. Or were you like, I'm sad. Why would a pill be given to another person?

Thomas [00:59:59] It was that, hey, try this. And I didn't even question. It was just like why. I asked what it was and, and they said it's, it's Vicodin. And I'd heard that name before, you know, my mom talking about Vicodin and how my, my older brother, you know, my older brothers, you know, would, would nab my mom's or something like that. I knew what Vicodin was here in Utah, people like to call it Loretab. But I.

John Dehlin [01:00:35] What are some of the other names of common opiates if you have them off the top of your head?

Thomas [01:00:40] Oh, absolutely. So the weakest or most common ones that you're going to find are Loretab, Vicodin, Norco. And they come in different strengths. People may be familiar. 5 over 510 over 325, 7.5 over 750. These are all different strengths of how much of the opiate is inside of the pill versus Tylenol. And then you go up to Percocet, which is Oxycodone. That is a stronger form of the painkiller. Okay. And that, that most people have heard of Oxycontin that is a very powerful drug. And if you can imagine that, you know, if. Let's say you. You got your. Your wisdom teeth pulled out, okay? And. And you got a prescription of a few percocets. Okay? Now, five over 500. Five represents how much. How many milligrams of the. Of the opiate is in there. Okay. Taking one of those for just about anybody will make you high. It will make. And some people will get sick because it's so intense. Now imagine that multiplied by, you know, 80 or, you know, an 80 milligram tablet of that. So instead of five 80 milligrams, that's why we're talking about things that can kill you. But that's how. That's how potent they make these.

John Dehlin [01:02:11] Okay, and what are the names of the 80 milligram dosages?

Thomas [01:02:18] They. They. Oxycontin. Extended release is usually what those are called. Okay. And then there's Opana, and there's some other ones, too, but the ones I state are the most common.

John Dehlin [01:02:33] All right, so even though five over whatever. Five over 500. Is that what you said, Can. Can get you high? Some people are taking a hundred and, you know, I mean.

Thomas [01:02:45] Yeah. Yeah. Crazy.

John Dehlin [01:02:46] Six. Sixteen times that amount.

Thomas [01:02:49] Yeah. Is it five into five? 10, 15, 20?

John Dehlin [01:02:54] I think. Yeah. Five and a. Five into 80 is 16.

Thomas [01:02:58] It's a. Yeah. Yeah. Yep, you're right. That's crazy. Sixteen times the potency.

John Dehlin [01:03:02] Yeah.

Thomas [01:03:03] Yeah. So. Okay, so I took. I just took it. I swallowed it.

John Dehlin [01:03:09] And I've taken opiates before, like, once or twice, depending on the surgery I

Thomas [01:03:15] had and how to make you feel.

John Dehlin [01:03:17] I mean, it felt great. It felt great.

Thomas [01:03:19] Oh, okay.

John Dehlin [01:03:20] But, I mean, I. I never got addicted. It wasn't ever something I never even considered being.

Thomas [01:03:25] You had good intentions. You obviously were using it as it's prescribed.

John Dehlin [01:03:29] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So what was it like for you when you took it?

Thomas [01:03:33] So some people don't even necessarily feel it very much the first time until they take it the second time. Then their body, like, kind of recognize it, and it's like, whoa. But I. I sure felt it. It was. I just. I. I couldn't believe that this feeling that I was feeling inside of my chest and just in my body was something that I had never known about before or something that I have never. That I had never experienced before. It was just good. And that was my first experience with that drug. And ever since then, you know, I was hooked. Not that I had. Not that I was gonna withdraw from just taking one pill, but I was hooked on the feeling that I knew it brought about. So shortly after this, this, this first pill that I take, I decided I was going to smoke weed. I just, I, it was just kind of like, I don't care, I don't care anymore. I want to smoke weed. I'm gonna try smoking weed. And I ended up, I ended up doing that and my dad actually ended up drug testing me and catching me. And that was like the first time my parents, I mean, they were devastated because I was supposed to be the child who does not use drugs. I was supposed to be the good child that wasn't going to take that route. So when my dad knew that I had done that, he was always suspicious after that. And I had to be very careful. And I got in trouble many times because I'd get drug tested, you know, many times. But I kind of dabbled around in a little bit of everything, you know, ecstasy and, you know, some, you know, over the counter medications that you can actually abuse, which parents should also know about those. You know, you can look them up online. But make no mistake, you don't, you know, your child doesn't have to get a hold of a prescription. They can go to the store and buy an over the counter medication that will get them high.

John Dehlin [01:06:08] Like certain cold, cold medicines or.

Thomas [01:06:10] Yes, correct, right. Yeah, yeah. You know that, what's that? You'd heard of that, the cold medicine?

John Dehlin [01:06:15] Oh, sure, sure, sure, sure.

Thomas [01:06:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:17] I mean, a lot of people make meth out of cold medicine. If I understand, if I understand correctly. Um, real quick, so I'm guessing that maybe one of the big differences between you and me was that you were in way more intense psychological emotional distress than I was. And so that relief meant a lot more to you than it did to me. I mean, is that, is that reasonable to say?

Thomas [01:06:44] Yeah, well, and, and your relief, John, was, was, was physically right, because you were taking that medication for physical pain.

John Dehlin [01:06:52] Right, right, right.

Thomas [01:06:53] Whereas I was experiencing mental pain. And yes, it did relieve that. It did make me happy. Now, it wasn't like right away I understood this idea of, okay, I can take drugs and not feel hurtful feelings and emotions anymore. It wasn't like I just, you know, knew that right away. It became more apparent to me as I became full blown addicted that, that these drugs turned you into a robot basically. That, you know, no sexual drive. No, no, you just don't, you don't care about sex, you don't care about eating very much. You don't care about, you know, if something stressful or something sad is going on, you have the answer to that, which is, you know, for me, was an opiate.

John Dehlin [01:07:54] Now, how are you getting the money? How are you getting these drugs over time at this age?

Thomas [01:08:00] So I see, at first, prior to my. Prior to my marriage, Okay, I got married when I was 20 years old. So the first four years of my addiction, the beginning years of my addiction, I wasn't seeking out. I mean, I wasn't on drugs every single day because I didn't come across them every single day. It was more like, you know, whenever a friend had some or a friend found a hookup. Okay. Or, you know, maybe one of my siblings had gotten some. Or maybe I, you know, went through somebody's cabinet and I found medication. It was every here and there that I was getting a hold of these. These pills. I was doing other drugs at the time, but what I knew I liked the most was the opiates. And I didn't. I wasn't taking them enough to where, if I stopped, I was going to withdraw. Not until literally right before my temple marriage did I experience that level of dependency.

John Dehlin [01:09:21] Right. Okay. So you weren't necessarily, like, addicted at first. Addiction probably takes time and certain frequency of chemical reactions.

Thomas [01:09:31] Right.

John Dehlin [01:09:32] To really hook you.

Thomas [01:09:33] Yeah, yeah, right, right. To really hook you in to where it's not going to be easy for you to get out of this. And you may. You will, like you. You. You will likely struggle with this the rest of your life. That's what. That's what, you know, we're referring to. And we're talking about hooking you in.

John Dehlin [01:09:51] Right. So real quick, Dr. Stephanie Jackson writes us, doctors are trapped by the system when it comes to pain medications, especially those of us who deal with patients with chronic pain. I'd love to learn more, Stephanie, about what you mean by trapped in the system. So, Stephanie, if you want to come on Mormon Stories, I'd love to have you join us. Let's see. Carver writes, people get desperate for money and sell these drugs. And so that's a really important point. One of the ways these drugs get distributed is people who need money sell them. Melissa reminds us that benzodiazepines are also at risk for abuse. Lindsay says, as parents, how do we see signs in our teenage children that they might be using drugs? Any tips for Lindsay, real quick? I don't want to get off your story too much.

Signs of Dependency and Family Dynamics

Thomas [01:10:49] No, no.

John Dehlin [01:10:50] Any tips for Lindsay? I mean, you were saying, you're wearing a hoodie, you're withdrawing your irritable. Anything else you would ADD Yep.

Thomas [01:11:00] So I think that you know, you know your, you know your children better than anyone else and you, you will have experienced them being a certain way for, you know, you know, many years until they're, well, until they're, you know, a teenager. Usually that's when the experimenting goes on and if you pay attention, you're going to notice something off about your child. Most of the time they are going to try to do this when they're out at a sleepover or they are going to be really worried about being actually high in front of you or at home. So most likely this would occur away from the home or when it's not around you, but looking for signs of being withdrawn or, you know, depression or just being, just being suspicious, maybe trying to avoid you, not looking your eye, you know, avoiding talking to you at all. Because when we're high we tend to think that we are super noticeable when maybe we aren't necessarily noticeable. And so me, for example, I would, I would avoid at all costs having to talk to my parents. And if I did, if I had to, I came off as rushing the conversation, wanting to get away. Now those are the lighter, those are the signs of perhaps like, you know, someone who's dabbling in drugs. There are much more, there are other signs that are much more serious for a full blown addict, but those are going to be more obvious and, but different. Okay, they're going to be different. Hopefully that someone.

John Dehlin [01:13:02] That's good. Yeah. So if they're withdrawing, if they're avoiding

Thomas [01:13:06] connection, acting odd at all, and you can drug, you can drug test them. I mean, I think that it's wise to be sensitive and understanding of your children if they, if they do slip up or experiment. I promise you it will not help anything if you, you know, you know, just, just, I don't know if you just like punish them, give them some severe punishment because they experimented. It's normal to experiment and typically that is a sign that something else is going on in their life that they perhaps need help with. So.

John Dehlin [01:13:52] Yeah, good. Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org thank you very much.

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 799

John Dehlin [00:00:02] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking the donate button on the top right side of the page. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support. Okay, so you start taking it more and more and withdrawing and losing interest in other activities.

Thomas [00:00:46] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:00:48] Where do we go from there?

Thomas [00:00:50] So I, during this kind of time in my life, I, after I had graduated from high school, So I was 18, is when I met my future wife. Up until this point, I had had quote unquote girlfriends, but they were, they were more like just friends. Okay. They weren't. It was not any serious relationship because

John Dehlin [00:01:22] you thought of yourself as gay, right?

Thomas [00:01:25] So it was like this is this. It was uncomfortable. Like, I thought I had to. I constantly was thinking of how to act like a straight person with this girl that I'm with. For example, I remember my seventh grade, my eighth grade girlfriend, she. We were at the movie theater and she was taking my hand and, and putting it on her breasts. And it made, not only did it make me uncomfortable, but I didn't want to do that. And all of my friends, my guy friends were sitting there and they were looking and they were laughing and they, they were just thinking like, what is, what the hell's your problem, Tom? Why are you not like, hello, aren't you not like all, you know, all for that? And it really deeply, like, just offended me because little did they know, I felt self conscious about acting as if I was straight. And anyway, so a lot of experiences kind of like that, but no, no serious, no serious girlfriends. And so I was. Let me describe this. Okay. My bisexuality is like this. I am overall more sexually and physically attracted to males. However, I do not have any attraction or desire for an emotional, you know, an emotional bond with a mate who is male. Okay. That there's not any. Because of the sexual abuse was purely sexual. Right? Is purely physical. That is that. That's the end of my bisexuality in that. In that regard. So. But although I'm more attracted to males in general, that doesn't mean that I am not attracted to. I mean, obviously my, my wife, you know, we have an honest relationship and it's not like I'm faking our, our marriage. She knew the first you know, she knew the first day we were dating up front the way that I was. But I, it took some time for me to develop really a liking and an attraction really in general for women. But up until this point, meeting my future wife, I wasn't like, you know, when I first met her, it wasn't like I was swept off my feet. And it wasn't because she's not attractive. I mean, my friends at that time were like, dude, Tom, she's. She looks amazing, man. She's so, she's so hot. Whatever. And I'm like, okay, I guess I didn't know. I didn't, I didn't. Does that make sense? I didn't, like, I didn't understand what Hawk girl looked like that for some reason.

John Dehlin [00:04:29] Sure.

Thomas [00:04:31] Anyway, so what is, what is special about my relationship with my wife is that she was the first female that, that I had a deep physical and emotional attraction, you know, attraction to and connect and a bond with. She was the first. And she, she really pretty much is the only. You know, I just have a hard time, you know, being attracted necessarily to, you know, when you're, obviously when you're married. Okay. You're, you know, that doesn't mean you can't appreciate if someone is beautiful. Right. Or someone is good looking.

John Dehlin [00:05:25] Sure.

Thomas [00:05:26] So that's what I'm trying to say. Like, I, I just, My wife is like, she, she is just the only woman I really am attracted to. And I, like I said, I was very upfront with her that I was this way and she accepted me and she was kind to me and it didn't bother her. And so we have a very open relationship in that sense. And I don't have to be afraid or ashamed of the fact that I am bisexual and that I have that aspect to me and fortunately am not in a marriage where I have to lie to myself that I'm, you know, attracted to my wife. I, you know, yeah, I'm just grateful for that.

John Dehlin [00:06:26] No, that happens. And if. For those who want another story or an example, the Josh and Lolly Weed episode that I did on Mormon stories, Josh Weed self identifies as gay, and he says he's in love with and sexually attracted to his wife, Laurel or Lolly. And there are others, Ty Mansfield and others claim something similar. Okay, so as far as someone asks how you knew when you were addicted versus just a user. And I'm also curious if you went on to serve a mission. So talk about the first those two questions. Okay, so first, how did you. How did you know when you were addicted versus just using.

Addiction Through Young Adulthood and Marriage

Thomas [00:07:10] So like I said, the first time I realized I was addicted was right before my temple wedding. It was just in the months prior to getting married in the temple.

John Dehlin [00:07:23] So you didn't serve a mission?

Thomas [00:07:24] I did. I did not. And that the reason was that I. I honestly just did not feel like that was what I was meant to do. I had so much crap that was not worked out mentally and emotionally, that I just. That wasn't something that I desire to do, wasn't something that I could mentally take on. Right. I just had.

John Dehlin [00:07:53] Sure, yeah.

Thomas [00:07:54] I had all these other things.

John Dehlin [00:07:56] But you did want to. You did want to. Do you do want to get married in the temple?

Thomas [00:08:01] Yes, yeah. That was always one of my. Well, yeah, it was always one of my goals and my wife and I had to work on it. You know, we couldn't just go straight into the temple and I, I had stopped using drugs completely, but I ended up getting a prescription of painkillers for, you know, I think it was for my back. I was telling myself that it was necessary for me to have this prescription, which is, you know, sort of a self lie that I told myself. And I knew I was addicted because it was interfering with all other aspects of my life. I could not go socialize without being high. I could not, you know, it was more important to make sure that I was high first and then everything else follows. That's when you, that's like a true addiction. Like when even over your family, the drug becomes the ultimate. It becomes what is most necessary. Because if, think about it, if you can't, if you can't be high and feeling good, you're withdrawing, you can't take care of your family, you can't go to work, you can't, you know, function like a person when you're, you know, look like you're deathly ill, withdrawing. And I also, at that time when I ran out of my medication, I was going through withdrawal and I was physically dependent on the drug, so I had to get more. But I ended up, you know, kind of coming to terms with that, that I, I was addicted. I needed to, to, to kick this addiction. And I did. I went cold turkey, got off of it, went through the withdrawals, and I got married in the temple. And I thought at this point that everything was okay.

John Dehlin [00:10:19] Incidentally, I think it's interesting to note that while in fact. Do you keep the word of wisdom is a temple recommend question. Most Mormons think word of wisdom means alcohol, illegal drugs, and coffee and tea, which in many cases are super healthy. And I don't, I wonder how many Mormons are still attending the temple or getting temple recommends with an opiate addiction. Not really. Either lying or not really.

Thomas [00:11:02] Their denial, you mean? Right.

John Dehlin [00:11:03] Thinking of that as being against the word of wisdom.

Thomas [00:11:06] Right.

John Dehlin [00:11:07] And is it against the word of wisdom? Because I don't know that Joseph Smith was thinking about opiates when he.

Thomas [00:11:12] No, certainly not. And of course, in the church, you know, there's the whole thing about everything in moderation. Right. And, you know, obviously something that is, you know, technically harmless if it becomes a true addiction and becomes something that you have to have or you cannot function in other parts of your life that can be bad, whether it be video games or, you know, whatever else. But no, that, you know, it doesn't say in the, in the word of wisdom in the scriptures to not take opiates. But it certainly, it certainly, I, in my opinion, would definitely be against the word of wisdom if they were being taken in a way that is not genuine, you know, for obviously your intent is to abuse it.

John Dehlin [00:12:05] So tell us about how the addiction played out once you got married.

Thomas [00:12:11] So I was naive to. I don't know, I just, I thought that I, I was naive. I thought that because I had kicked the pills and I got married in the temple that I would no longer. That this wouldn't come back, that this wouldn't be a problem in the future. I thought it was just over and done with. The thing is that when you become addicted and dependent on a drug, you basically are. Even if you kick it, you're sort of teaching yourself that when you are in a stressful situation or life really sucks or you're depressed, that your coping mechanism, your ability to get through those tough situations is resorting back to using those drugs. So I, almost immediately after getting married, I justified getting a prescription for painkillers, for some back pain. And I knew in the back of my head that, you know, this is probably stupid and this is not a good idea, but I convinced my wife that it would be okay. And okay, okay to. Okay to take them responsibly and that I was going to take them responsibly and for a purpose other than abusing them. And I did at first. But of course, you know, an addict, just like an alcoholic, they can't just take a drink and put it down. It doesn't work that way. You know, I was, I was naive to that idea. And so I just, I, you know, spun out of control. It became something that, that my Wife obviously knew, like, you know, you can't take ever take this again. Even if you're in legitimate pain, you are addicted, you cannot afford to take painkillers. And I started being secretive and doing whatever I had to to, to get my hands on drugs. And this is where it really started to cut into our finances. Because prior to getting married, not only was I not sharing my finances with somebody else, but I really got a lot of drugs without even having to pay for them. So at this point, I'm having to pay for all these drugs and they're very expensive. And I had to look for excuses to justify where this money is going to. You end up spinning this, like, intricate web of lies that is so well thought out and so like, just well constructed. You know, it, it. You just, you get sucked into this idea of lying. You almost tell yourself that you're not lying and you just, you build this web of lies. And then you realize that you are like in deep, you're in deep doo doo because you had lied about all these things, even little tiny things. And so when that web of lies gets exposed, it's not just like one lie, it's like all of these things. And it just causes a massive amount of distrust, you know, and anytime that I was discovered, you know, I would become like, humble. I'd feel bad about it. I'd go talk to the bishop and I'd work on it and I would get, get better.

John Dehlin [00:16:22] What would the bishop say to help you?

Thomas [00:16:27] So I can't say that a bishop has ever been able to give me advice that was valuable in actually doing anything about it. Oh, that's a good point, John. It's the classic answers. It's the class or it's the classic suggestions of, you know, you need to read your scriptures more, you need to pray more, you need to go to the temple. If. And if you do xyz, you will not be tempted. Okay. Every time. Well, I don't know. Maybe that works for some people, but when we're talking about a physical dependence to an opiate, you know, I just. That that's not enough sometimes that's maybe a lot of the times that's not enough to, you know, there are other things you have to do, like whether it be going to na, Narcotics Anonymous or AA or outpatient rehab if you're married and have kids or, you know, there are other things that should be added to that. So I think it's dangerous when bishops tend to think that they're giving all of the advice and help that is necessary by just saying, read your scriptures, go to church, go to the temple.

John Dehlin [00:17:48] What should a bishop or stake president or mission president say to someone who's struggling with drug addiction?

Thomas [00:17:56] My current bishop, I think, said something really valuable to me in the recent past. He, he, because he has, because he has experience with someone in his family, he was able to understand that he couldn't just tell me to do the primary answers, you know, as they are. Do the, do the, you know, you're familiar with that, right? Do the primary answers or the primary, the base, primary basics. He stated that he knew he couldn't just suggest that and that that would be enough. And I never have had a bishop tell me this before. He said, I understand that you need additional help and that, that this isn't going to be something that gets fixed overnight. So what I, what I think works is the, the bishop also suggesting and helping with, you know, therapy. Definitely. Being able to identify why you were using drugs in the first place is vital. Otherwise you can't fight it.

John Dehlin [00:19:12] Stephanie writes, and this is Dr. Stephanie. The underlying trauma needs to be addressed. Drugs cover up our feelings of trauma from childhood or later, even childhood memories that we don't remember. It's how the brain is wired.

Thomas [00:19:29] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:19:31] So you're saying it's not. Tell them it's not just read the scriptures, pray. Just being loving Christ and being faithful is not enough. Ask them to get help and make sure that they see a licensed professional psychologist, psychiatrist, licensed mental health professional who can help you get to the bottom of the root of your pain and suffering so that you can address the underpinning pain that then begs for the drugs.

Thomas [00:20:01] Just like the doctor was. Yeah, that's absolutely right. Just like the doctor was saying. You know, a lot of parents, you know, just because they don't know any better and even bishops, you know, maybe think that, oh, just send you off to rehab and, you know, you're safe in rehab, there's not gonna be drugs any around you and you're gonna be able to get better and just be off of the drug long enough to, to learn to live without it. No, you need to address the root of the problem. Right, Just like, just like we're saying.

John Dehlin [00:20:34] Kerry writes, bishops are not doctors. The primary answers are great and should happen. But I also agree with getting therapy and getting to the root of the problem. And then Carver writes, I always got a false sense of security from priesthood leaders about my problems. And some bishops, Stephanie, Dr. Jackson writes that some bishops, there's still a taboo amongst some Mormon leaders about seeking psychologists or help from mental health professionals.

Thomas [00:21:04] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:21:04] Yep, that's probably true outside of Mormonism. Okay, so bishops weren't particularly helpful, though you've had a good one recently. Talk more about how the drug use spiraled out of control, if you don't mind.

Life as a Functioning Addict

Thomas [00:21:15] Okay. Yeah. So you mean just like, kind of like what it's like to be.

John Dehlin [00:21:20] Yeah.

Thomas [00:21:20] A drug addict.

John Dehlin [00:21:21] Yeah.

Thomas [00:21:22] And. Okay. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:21:25] And why you can't stop it. Like what?

Thomas [00:21:27] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:21:27] When you just try and stop it, why you can't, you know.

Thomas [00:21:30] Okay. So, you know, people obviously who haven't experienced it tend to think that it's a lot easier than. I mean, it's. It's never a good idea to think that you know better if you have not experienced it or just think that someone can just get over it, which it. You know, it's kind of sad that some people believe that, you know, you. I guess I should say I, I would pick up where I left off every time. And you hear this very commonly with drug addicts that, that. Let's say that they stopped using drugs for a period of time and then they relapsed. Instead of starting small, they're going to pick up right where they. They left off. So with me kind of doing this roller coaster up and down thing through my marriage, it got progressively worse each time I relapsed. The pills would be harder, a harder drug. I would do a lot more until eventually hit a point where it's like, you know what? This isn't even worth spending all this money on these pills. It's gonna be more worth it to get heroin because heroin will last longer. Heroin is cheaper than buying these individual pills for $20 a piece. You know, that you're gonna use, you know, just a few days and be done.

John Dehlin [00:23:16] Now, heroin, to me is like a whole other class of seriousness. I think of heroin along with meth, maybe crack and as like, whoa, that's serious, right?

Thomas [00:23:32] Yeah, that's a common. Yeah, that's a common.

John Dehlin [00:23:35] And is that true? Is heroin among the most dangerous and deadly of all drugs?

Thomas [00:23:41] See, that's not. That's not true when we're talking about. That's not true when we're talking about hard painkillers. Okay. Because you can die from the both of them if you're not careful. But where we are talking about probably you'd be right. In seriousness, is shooting the drug rather than swallowing it, smoking it. Now, I'm not saying that taking Vicodin is equivalent to smoking heroin. I'm not saying that, but I'm saying the harder pills can be, you know, we have this common misconception that just because it's, you know, heroin, it sounds scary. Heroin, cocaine, methamphetamine. And they are, they are hard drugs. But there are, you know, pills are also hard drugs too. And so if, you know, if your child's doing pills versus heroin, that doesn't necessarily mean, oh, I'm relieved. You know, it's just pills. You can't look at it that way. And I avoided heroin for a long time, John, for that specific reason. And what you're talking about is that sort of idea that, oh, you know, heroin, that's really serious. Like, I don't want to resort to that. I don't want to go there. But, you know, everyone eventually does after long enough, you know, if they're addicted to opiates. And for many years I actually held off, I guess, which is kind of uncommon. I avoided I.V. ing the drug for actually like three years. I was scared to I.V. i, you know, I've seen what it does to people. Once you use the IV you will never go back. You will never go back to smoking it. You will never go back to any other way. Because the feeling you get is so great that, you know, and invigorating, I guess, that you, you just, you're not going to go back. And there's a lot of dangers that come with IV use. Obviously, you know, if you're sharing needles and that sort of thing. But it's kind of a.

John Dehlin [00:26:02] You mean like AIDS and other types of things?

Thomas [00:26:05] Yeah, and you know, hepatitis and things like that. But it's a really scary place to be in, to be in full blown addiction because you understand that, that you are not. If you've, if you've gone through it enough times, it's very clear to you that you are not going to stop until something really bad happens. You know, I had to hit a further low each time I would relapse. I had to hit a worse place than I had the past time. Even though I thought, oh my gosh, like that, that, you know, the reason I stopped last time, that was really severe. I can't imagine anything worse. And then something worse happens. And it's scary realizing that you are not going to be able to stop yourself when you, when you become addicted. You treat the drug as if it were water or, or oxygen in a way. You know, you cannot live without it. So you will not, like I said, you will not be able to carry out any of your other tasks. Unless you were high if you're a full blown addict. And it's really, it's really hard for, you know, like my wife, for example, until she really understood the inner workings of addiction, how could she not feel like heroin is more important to me than her and my daughters? How could she not feel that way? I have to be high in order to go to work, to provide for my family. I have to be high in order to spend time with my wife. I have to be high in order to, you know, just have the energy and the desire to take my daughters out to go play on the playground, you know, and that's a huge guilt factor for me as an addict when I'm in that position. But I guess it's important to state and for people to know that although the drug becomes priority over even your family, it doesn't, that's not because they truly, it's not because they truly love the drug in a, in a love sort of way. It's a chemical dependence. It's, it's a, you know what I mean? It's, it's a, it's a love in the sense that you are chemically dependent on it. So it's, it's not that, you know, it's not that you, that, that the spouse who's not using is not loved anymore, but it certainly will feel that way. No doubt that you weren't loved, that you're using, spouse is, is more in love with the drug than they are with, with you. And it's, it's hard. It's hard. And. Go ahead.

Hitting Rock Bottom and Seeking Recovery

John Dehlin [00:29:26] So was there. What, what did you hit rock bottom? And if so, what did rock bottom look like?

Thomas [00:29:34] So it's kind of hard to talk about. I, and I'm, I'm, I'm willing to kind of give some examples. But, you know, hitting rock bottom could be that I've spent $3,000 in a month on heroin and we have $0 left and we have bills to pay, we have rent to pay. That is very crushing as a man, as a father who, you know, I'm the provider. You know, my wife has never chosen to go to work. She's very shy. She doesn't have the desire to have a career. And so I am, I'm the provider. And so when I'm not capable of providing for my family, that is a really humbling, sad position to be in. Another example is one time I was withdrawing. And every drug addict will tell you that withdrawals, they will do, we will do anything to not be in withdrawal because you feel like you're dying, but you're not gonna die, but you feel like you're dying. Things like Xanax, benzodiazepines, you actually can die withdrawing from those. But opiates, you know, you're not going to die, but you are going to be, like, really, really sick. Chills, fevers, diarrhea, achy bones and muscles. Just. You're going to be in hell. And so you do anything to not feel that way. And I remember this specific time I needed to go use drugs to not feel that way. And my wife was onto me, and, you know, I was giving some dumb excuse to leave the house, and she knew what was up, so she followed me outside, and she would not. She got on the back of our car. Actually, I got in the driver's seat and I turned the car on, and she was, you know, yelling to me, like, open the door. Open the other side of the door. Let me in. I'm coming with you. As before, we had kids, and I kept saying, no, no. And I. I was so just not myself, like. Like a depraved animal. That's what you become that I. I needed to go use. And so I turned the car on, and I slowly started backing out, like, to warn her, like, look, I'm gonna pull away. You better get off the car. And she wouldn't get off. And because she was committed to not letting me go, she wanted to do everything in her power to stop me. Later she learned that, you know, really, you can't stop someone from making the choice to use drugs. They have to decide on their own. But I thought she had gotten off the car and. Oh, no, no, I'd unlocked the door, like she said. I stopped the car. I was listening to her demands that she wanted me to stop the car and unlock the door so she could sit in the. In the passenger seat. And so I did. And my plan was that I was, you know, going to. When she got off the back of the car, that I was going to pull away. Well, I hadn't realized that she had come up to the passenger side, and she had already opened the door at that point, and I had peeled away in the car, and. She was hanging on to the. Just like, hanging on, you know, to the door so she wouldn't fall and get caught under the. The wheel of the car. And I remember when I was in our apartment complex during the day, I remember when I stopped the car because I realized what was going on. I looked over at her, and the look that she gave Me was like nothing I had ever seen before. It was like. It was. It was as if I knew exactly what she was thinking and she didn't have to say a word. And the look on her face was like, who are you? I don't even know who you are. It almost like I had been alienated or, you know, I was a different person because she knows that the true me would not put her in that danger. And so, you know, drug addiction pushes us to do really crazy, horrible things. You know, stealing money from family members, you know, selling family members expensive items, you know, at the pawn shop, you know, anything you can imagine, you know, where someone might be able to make money off of taking advantage of you. You know, those are all things that drug addicts tend to do.

John Dehlin [00:35:44] Got it. Thanks for sharing something so personal and so hard.

Thomas [00:35:49] You're welcome.

Treatment Options and the Road to Sobriety

John Dehlin [00:35:51] So are you comfortable talking about where you are now in terms of usage?

Thomas [00:35:58] Mm, yeah. So I recently I've been sober for a few months. I just got through the worst of my relapses I had ever had. And my wife and I have lived our whole lives in California. We grew up there, but we've lived here in Utah for a year. We moved up here because I had gotten a job that I had been applying to for like a year straight. And we really wanted this, this job for me because it would. It would provide us with a good opportunity in Utah to make decent money and live cheaply in Utah, you know. And so we moved up here and about six months into my job, we. I mean, there was a company wide layoff that occurred and I was one of the people getting laid off. The day that I got laid off, that they called me into work to fire me. I mean, I had just found out like a couple days prior to that that we were having our third child. Totally unplanned. This, you know, we were not prepared to have another child. We were not wanting to have another kid for a while, another baby. So, you know, here we are finding out that my wife is pregnant, which was more of a really hard thing to hear. Not a happy moment at first. You know, it was sobering and scary. Then a couple days later, I get laid off and that was it. You know, as a drug addict, it is very scary when you go through any sort of hardship because, you know, and my wife knows and fears that anytime a hardship occurs that she has to fear and worry that I'm gonna go off the deep end. And so that's exactly what I did. I. This is the first time I even started shooting heroin. So that's it. And I'd never done that before. And I. You know, I didn't know anybody up here that had drugs. So I had to, you know, search to the ends of earth to. To make that happen and do risky things, and I did, and I ended up making that happen. So it was a bad time. And I really put us in a dire position financially. I do have to say that I'm very grateful for the help of my bishop. He has been so understanding and helpful to help us financially during this time. And without that help, we would be. We wouldn't have a place to live.

John Dehlin [00:39:37] So the church can be the good guy. Sometimes the church can help someone. The church can help someone with funds. So what, did they give you money to seek treatment? Is that what happened?

Thomas [00:39:49] No, just for our. Our, you know, our rent and. And our utilities, but.

John Dehlin [00:39:57] Okay. So to help you make ends meet.

Thomas [00:40:00] Yeah. But also, I was. We. We did some research, and, you know, my bishop was like, I want you to heal completely from this. I don't want to just put a band aid on this. I will. I will support you financially in any treatment that you need, which was really awesome. But I ended up finding this place. I don't know if you've heard of it in Provo. It's called Project Reality. There's one in Salt Lake as well. It's a methadone clinic. There's a lot of misconceptions about methadone. Another one is Suboxone, which is. These are drugs that are administered to you under strict conditions. And these drugs, they reduce or sort of kill your cravings for opiates. And in fact, even if you try to go get high, the drug that you're taking, the methadone or the Suboxone, prevents you from even feeling high. And so I am fortunate enough to have Medicaid totally cover my treatment at Project Reality, which is awesome. So I go in every day and the nurse gives me the medicine, and I. You have to take it right there in front of them. There's a lot of accountability. And then you're also required to do a certain amount of therapy every week. I love my therapist. She has helped me tremendously, even though I've had therapists in the past. I mean, she is awesome. And I've done a lot of work with her, processed a lot of tough things. And, you know, you get to step up in the program by. If you. If you show that you are staying on track, that you're staying sober, they end up. You know, you can be on these different levels of trust where they will allow you to actually take home the medication for one of those days. And then eventually, if you get to a high enough step, you actually get to take in or you take home medicine that the methadone for, you know, the whole entire week. But otherwise, when you're first starting, you have to go in every single day and take the methadone. But it's been, it's been awesome. I've been able to have my life, my life back. I've been able to, you know, be a father. And I'm just so grateful. I've been able to be active with my kids and spending time with them and just feeling good about myself as a father.

John Dehlin [00:43:10] So you've been clean for a few months?

Thomas [00:43:13] Yeah, since April.

John Dehlin [00:43:14] Are there. What about the support groups? Narcoholics Anonymous or Alcoholics? Are those it things you would go to or have used or.

Thomas [00:43:25] Yeah, I have in the past. You know, for some people they're great. For other people they're not as great. But I've never been to one in Utah. I'm curious to. I guess I'd be curious to know how, how they'd be. The culture is very different here than it is in California, but I haven't personally gone to any up here. I do do three hours of individual therapy a week and three hours of group therapy a week. So I've been doing very intensive outpatient sort of therapy along with the methadone treatment. But yeah, those can be definitely helpful. You know, you get a sponsor. You know, it's about accountability and, um, you know, you get your chip when you've gone certain amount of days without using drugs. And it feels good to, to, you know, get those chips, even if it's like 30 days. It's like you're proud of yourself. You know, everyone cheers for you and claps for you and it feels good. Of course, the church does have their, their program, which I have been to plenty of those. I'm not sure where my opinion kind of lies with that program. I think there's some questionable, some questionable attributes of it. Have you heard much about the church's program?

John Dehlin [00:44:57] Just mostly when people take this 12 step program in the church that's just for masturbation and so I've got a negative association with it.

Thomas [00:45:06] Oh yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:06] All these men and their wives and

Thomas [00:45:09] talking about they run one specifically for masturbation. I know they do one for pornography and one for drug abuse. But you're saying there's One specifically for masturbation.

John Dehlin [00:45:17] A lot of pornography and masturbation are, you know.

Thomas [00:45:20] Yeah, that's true.

John Dehlin [00:45:21] They happen simultaneously.

Thomas [00:45:23] Right.

John Dehlin [00:45:23] So I don't know whether the church's program is helpful or not to drug addicts, but I love, I love that you're getting treatment. Talk about sort of like relapsing rates with opiate sort of addicts. And you know, you hear this thing, once an act, always an addict, and sobriety and you're never fully recovered. Can you talk about what you know about that?

Thomas [00:45:54] So there are, you know, different statistics, like, you know, 30 days in, in rehab. You know, if you leave after 30 days, you're, you're this likely to relapse. It's like a really high relapse rate, you know, and the longer you, the longer you obviously stay off of the drug, the better chances you have. But I don't know, actual like. Yeah, okay, hard statistics. But, but it's worth mentioning that relapse rates are, I mean, absolutely common. I mean, if you're, if you're a full blown addict, I would be absolutely shocked if you, your first round, were able to get off the drug and set it aside forever. I mean that. I don't think I've ever heard of that. If you're truly addicted because it, it changes your brain chemistry when you are in these addictions for such a long period of time and just relapsing. It's sad to say, but it's a very common part of dealing with addiction and it is something, once an addict, always an addiction. I agree with that in the sense that once you're addicted to, you know, whatever your, your drug of choice is, you will never be able to be around that drug again. You will never be able to take that drug and just take it one time. You know, you're always, you're always going to be addicted to it or have that tendency. Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [00:47:41] Yeah, it does. What can you tell us about your wife and your, your thoughts and feelings around her sticking with you during such a hard thing?

Advice for Families and Those Struggling With Addiction

Thomas [00:47:53] Oh, I, I am so grateful, you know, she, I'm just, I'm, I'm grateful that she has taken the time to understand the dynamics of my addiction. It could be very easy for one to, to just not, you know, just be like, okay, I'm done. This, this is, this is, this is too much for me. I'm leaving without actually trying to understand why, you know, your spouse is using drugs and why it is so hard. Now, I'm not discounting or minimizing the pain of anybody who just kind of throws their hands up and leaves the marriage. But I just, I think that would be a lot easier than sticking with your spouse who has an addiction. But you know, my wife is a huge part of my, my desire and my ability to stay sober and so are my daughters, excuse me, my voice recipe. And you know, she, what's important to me is that she doesn't stick around because she doesn't have anywhere to go or because she's intimidated by me. You know, that, that, that would make me feel horrible if she was just staying with me out of fear, which is a totally a common thing. You know, I mean, I know, I know, I know married couples who have been married for years and you know, one of the, one of the, the spouses have, has been using forever and the other one can't seem to leave because they are intimidated and they have, you know, it's not easy to go through a divorce with kids. But I'm just glad that my wife sticks by my side and supports me and that she, she's, you know, she's in it for a good reason. You know, she's not just staying just to, you know, because she can't go.

John Dehlin [00:50:16] Shout out to her. Okay, so as we kind of wrap up for today, I'm going to give you a couple different groups of people and I'm going to ask you to sort of give some really quick advice to each group. So for somebody considering drugs or self medication, what can you say to them? Is there anything you can say to prevent someone from going there or are people just going to do it no matter what?

Thomas [00:50:50] Like I said before, like, you know, I wouldn't be surprised. I would try not to be surprised if your kid, your child experiments. But you know, you know, there's a right way to go about that. I don't know if there really is a way to just ensure that your child isn't going to use or ever try or experiment with a drug. But definitely what would help prevent a full blown addiction coming into fruition would be making sure that your child has a relationship with you. Like you're saying, John, in which they feel they can talk to you so that if they do experiment it can be discussed and you know, you can kind of discuss why, you know, they, they shouldn't do that. But you know, it kind of the problem kind of lays or lies with the, the upbringing of the child or whatever has happened, you know, in their life. You know, you know, if you have that open connection and Relationship you should be able to identify also or before drug usage if there's some other like under underlying problem, some type of trauma. And the best thing to do is get help for your child for that root cause or that root issue like we were talking about. If you can get that root, the root of the problem addressed before your child feels like they want to use or have a tendency to use, then you're going to be much better off.

John Dehlin [00:52:40] Love it. What would you say to someone who is addicted, how to come clean?

Thomas [00:52:51] You know, I think know I don't have my way is not the only way. There are many ways to go about getting clean and something different works for, you know, each individual person. But there, I guess the most important thing to know is that there are like, Even in the 10 years that I was, that I have used and dealt with this addiction over 10 years, I wish I would have known sooner about some of the services and programs and different things that are available to drug addicts to help them. Actually here in the state of Utah, a drug addict is considered a person with a disability because it is a form of a disability. The person isn't using because they're a bad person and they just want to do bad things. They are, they have a deep rooted psychological something going on inside of them and they need help. It's a, it's a, it's a, it's a form of a disability. And there is, there are programs that will financially back those recovering drug addicts who are trying to better themselves and stay off drugs. You know, financial backing and support, resources for getting a job that will work for you. I mean there's so much. The other part, John, is that there's nothing that can be said to any drug addict, you know, anywhere that is going to make them have the desire to stop using. Unfortunately, that typically only comes about when they hit a low because they have, we always hear this. The drug addict has to decide that they're done. And that's absolutely true. But usually the addiction, the mental psychological aspect of it is so powerful and the chemical dependency that, you know, sort of a realization or a reality check doesn't occur until they hit a very low point.

John Dehlin [00:55:16] Got it. Okay, that makes sense. And so for other loved ones or even bishops or church leaders, what can we do to help someone who's struggling? You've already said maintain that connection. Is there anything else we can do?

Thomas [00:55:36] Yeah, I mean, you know, don't, you know, I don't judge something that you have no idea personally, like you haven't experienced. I think people really, you know, like, for, you know, other people who don't understand and have not experienced something like addiction personally, the addict, you know, or me, for example, I like when people approach me and, you know, instead of talking behind my back or judging me, I appreciate it when they want to understand why I use. And oftentimes, you know, they. You know, they realize, like, oh, okay, that makes sense. Like, I haven't experienced that, but that makes sense more. You know, I just thought you use because you think it feels good. You know, like, there are a lot of misconceptions. So having that understanding and that loving support where the addict feels safe around you, okay. And they're not going to be judged and then just offering them the support that they need. Like some of these programs I've talked about, their medical treatments, there are outpatient, inpatient rehabs, and providing those services or offering help with, you know, kind of getting involved with those services so that when the addict reaches a point, a low point, where they're like, I'm done with this. I want to change. They know exactly who to go to, because at one time you had offered to them or told them that you. That you want to help them in these sort of ways. Don't be shocked if, you know, if they're in their addiction and you have this great offer, you know, and they don't take it. You know, it may. And it may not be until down the road when they hit that low, that they come back to you. But the important thing is that they do come back to you and take you up on that offer or, you know, come to get your help.

John Dehlin [00:57:56] Love it. Any final words you want to say about if or how any of this has affected your faith and we don't have to even go there if you don't think that's an important thing to mention.

Faith, Recovery, and Closing Reflections

Thomas [00:58:07] Well, is, though, you know, I. It's really tough when, you know, you have a serious shaking in your faith, when your faith, you know, has shaped your understanding of everything. You know, the church isn't just a religion where, you know, we, you know, do certain practices or rituals or believe certain things. It actually, you know, Mormonism actually provides sort of a. Its own understanding or explanation for how the world works. Okay. Like, for example, we go through trials. You know, we're told we'll go through trials. We're here to go through trials to better ourselves and to, you know, perfect ourselves. Well, when that all gets sort of shaken, your whole foundation gets shaken, and you are questioning your perception of Reality that has been based off of or filtered through the church. You know, what I'm kind of going through right now is thinking like, well, you know, I used to think that there was some bigger purpose to going through being sexually abused and, you know, and my brother dying and, you know, just causing so many people so much pain with this drug addiction and wasting so much of my life to this horrible addiction. Like, what is the purpose? You know, that. That's what. That's what's been kind of hard for me is just, you know, when. When I was. Had a super strong testimony and did not question anything, I had a sort of an idea in mind of a bigger purpose. But I'm still very much in the middle of kind of my faith crisis. I just, you know, it's been harder and harder for me to go to church and sit there and just feel so. Not include, like, just so different. So, you know, it's not even that I say anything. It's just I feel like I'm alone, even though I'm surrounded by people, because. Because the narrative that I have grown to know is not the real narrative. And so it just has been increasingly harder and harder to go to church and to be really invested. And in the past, that has been a vital part in me staying sober. So really, John, I think it's like a matter of finding what makes me stay sober, what helps me, what keeps me happy. And, you know, that's a little scary right now because I'm not sure where, you know, what my beliefs are. They're in question.

John Dehlin [01:01:32] Yeah. And I imagine, and I'm just guessing, I don't mean to project, but I imagine that it would be such a hard, potentially a really hard conflict between wanting to hold on to the religion as a source of moral or community support or even financial support.

Thomas [01:01:51] Right.

John Dehlin [01:01:52] And not only sometimes questioning its claims, but also recognizing that maybe many of the damaging messages that religion can put forward could be some of the underpinnings for your addiction.

Thomas [01:02:08] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:02:09] Is that a conflict you experience?

Thomas [01:02:12] Yeah, absolutely. That's. Yeah. See, so because. Because of this sort of questioning in this crisis of faith, it makes me look back and be like, oh, my gosh, like, this is so unhealthy. Like, like the, like you were saying, John, these, these, these certain messages and, and ideas within the LDS culture are still very present today. And they're still, they're still, you know, those same unhealthy messages are still being sort of spread around today. And I just. I look back and just realize how, how, how Could I not, or how could any Mormon not have experienced some sort of psychological something, Whether it be. Whether it be shame or, you know, shame of their bodies or, you know, just being hard on themselves or not thinking they're good enough or, you know, like. It's just really hard for me to sit with that.

John Dehlin [01:03:24] Yeah.

Thomas [01:03:24] And it makes. It makes me scared for my children. I don't want them to soak in any of this negative messaging at all, you know?

John Dehlin [01:03:37] Sure, sure.

Thomas [01:03:39] So.

John Dehlin [01:03:40] And, man, if religion helps you get well, I want you to get well however you can get well. You know what I mean?

Thomas [01:03:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:48] That's so hard.

Thomas [01:03:49] Appreciate that.

John Dehlin [01:03:50] Well, just to close, thank you so much again for being willing to share your story with us. It's so brave. It's so valuable. Thomas And I just. I did this series to give hope to people so that they know that you could, you know, that this stuff is serious. Let's get educated about it, and let's go ahead and educate ourselves so that we can help ourselves and others get better. And that's the spirit with which this is all happened.

Thomas [01:04:27] I appreciate. I appreciate you allowing me to kind of talk about it and that. And that, that. That is a huge part of it, John. Education, you know, that's really just getting educated and about this stuff, because if you haven't gone through it yourself, obviously you're not gonna, you know, there's some. There's some things to learn. So beautiful.

John Dehlin [01:04:48] Just one last time, Vicki asks, where should an addict go to find these programs you're talking about? What would you say? And we can put links on the blog post.

Thomas [01:04:59] So the Utah Department of Health and Provo, I think that's what it's called. I went in there. Where did I go? I went in there and they, like, assessed me. And they, like, they assessed how much they were going to help me financially based off, you know, my. Our expenses and, you know, whether I have a job or not. And they gave me resources, like, whether it be outpatient rehab or, you know, the methadone clinic or therapy services. I apologize. I don't know specifically what department I went into, but if you call the Utah Department of Health and you. I'm sure they direct you to the right place. If you just ask for services for addicts and really just searching online. I mean, I know it sounds cliche, but in Google, like, all of the services and the. The organizations that help addicts, there are a ton. There are a ton in Utah.

John Dehlin [01:06:18] What was the one you went to?

Thomas [01:06:21] It's called Project Reality. But they offer other things, other services at the Utah Department of Health.

John Dehlin [01:06:30] Okay. Project Reality Utah.

Thomas [01:06:35] There's one in Salt Lake, too.

John Dehlin [01:06:37] So that's projectreality.net it looks like that's the website for people. I'll go ahead and post it to the Mormon Stories Podcast Facebook page. There's another one that I just found called Discovery House.

Thomas [01:06:54] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:06:56] Comprehensive Treatment Centers of Utah. That looks.

Thomas [01:07:02] That's just a. This is just a different form of treatment for, you know, like I said, every. Every person is different, but some people have tried so many different rehabs, and they just can't seem to, you know, stay sober. There's a different option of being medicated on something that really helps you not think about drugs and not want to use. And I have found it very valuable for myself.

John Dehlin [01:07:28] Okay, so Utah Department of Health, utahctc.com, projectreality.net are just a few of the many programs.

Thomas [01:07:36] Yeah. Yep. For sure. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:39] All right, cool. Well, again, Thomas, thank you so much for being willing to come on Mormon Stories. I'm sure you're gonna save at least a life or two from your courage, so we can't thank you enough, I hope.

Thomas [01:07:54] All right, thanks, John. I appreciate it.

John Dehlin [01:07:57] And to all our listeners out there, thank you so much for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Please check us out@mormonstories.org if you want to comment on this episode, if you want to share experiences, resources. If you want to come on Mormon Stories. If you've got a story to tell, email us@mormonstoriesmail.com and we'll look at your story and see if we can fit it in. I want to thank everyone who donates to Mormon Stories. You keep this alive, please consider donating@mormonstories.org you can click on the donate button. $10, $20 a month. A monthly subscription can really make a difference. If you can do more, that's great. All our contributions are tax deductible in the United States and go towards keeping this podcast alive, keeping the Open Stories foundation alive, supporting our staff, and allowing us to do events, workshops, retreats, etc. To help people. So please support us if you can. Check us out for future episodes of Mormon Stories. Please feel free to check out mormonstories.org events and if you want to attend one of our upcoming workshops or retreats, those are super useful to people. So again, thanks everyone for tuning in. Please tune in again soon, and we just appreciate all the support. Take care, everybody. All right, talk soon. Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org thank you very much.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.