Introduction and Episode Overview

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone, and welcome back to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast and the Joseph Smith Podcast. I am your host for today, John Dehlin. It's November 3, 2025, and today we are in part 21 of our series with Dr. John Turner on this groundbreaking, very important book, Joseph the Rise and Fall of an American Prophet, again by John G. Turner. We want to thank our donors for making all this possible. Please like and subscribe to this channel wherever you listen to it. That helps us with the algorithms. And we have back with us today, John Turner. Hey, John, welcome back.

John Turner [00:00:41] Hi, John Dehlin, great to be back with you. Excited for today's conversation. Grateful to everyone who has supported this podcast and who have been listening, commenting, reading, any of those are always super welcome.

John Dehlin [00:00:59] Any, any quick news or announcements or anything before we jump in?

John Turner [00:01:06] Well, we could call this the financial advice episode of the Joseph Smith Podcast. I'll just say I have a comment in the introduction to my book which caught some people's attention, which was I wouldn't trust him with my money, my wife or my daughter. We'll talk about the latter two in upcoming weeks. And today we're, we're essentially talking about Joseph Smith's leadership, specifically his financial leadership of the church and really an enormous financial debacle that for a good number of church members called Joseph's leadership into question.

John Dehlin [00:01:58] Yes, we are here today to talk about the Kirtland bank scandal. We're in chapter 18 of John Turner's book entitled Follies 1836-1837. Last week we covered Fanny Alger or Fanny Alger for most, I think it was just an extramarital affair. Sometimes Mormon apologists try to refer to that as Joseph's first polygamous marriage. Today we're going to talk about the Kirtland bank scandal. And I'm going to begin a little bit non traditionally because I'm going to read kind of the climax of action of this Kirtland bank scandal just to give people a teaser for how unchained things become. So this is the bottom of page 198 and it says another Sunday meeting in the temple, Joseph Smith Sr. Criticized Warren Parrish in relation to the Safety Society. That's the bank Parrish charged at. The church's patriarch, Joseph Sr. Called on Oliver Cowdery, who was a justice of the peace, to detain Parrish. Cowdery sat like a statue, meaning did nothing. Before Par could pull Joseph Sr. Out of the pulpit, William Smith grabbed Parrish and began carrying him toward the door. This is William Smith, who just in the past couple episodes had a melee with his own brother, Joseph Smith. Now he's in a melee with. With parish, grabbing Parrish, pulling him out the door. Dissident apostle. This is an apostle. John Boynton drew a sword. A sword. And threatened to run him through, meaning William, if he took another step. So Mormon apostles are threatening to run each other through with swords. According to Eliza Snow's later recollection, other men drew pistols and bowie knives. A melee ensued while some church members, quote, tried to escape from the confusion by jumping out of the windows. Was this the temple where this melee was happening? This is in the Lord's house. Okay. And then meanwhile, Joseph and Sidney are needing to flee. And if I'm reading right, do they dress up as women to flee Kirtland, or is that in a different episode?

John Turner [00:04:33] That is. That is not here. They are actually. They are actually busy dodging a hostile sheriff in nearby Painsville. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:47] So they're. So Joseph and Sidney are fleeing, hiding in. Oh, here it is. They took refuge in a swamp and laid down next to an old log. That's. That's how. I mean, and it's so ironic because just a couple episodes ago, we had the Kirtland Temple, we called it Pentecost dedication, where, like, basically they're. They're pretty much at Zion at that point, right, John Turner.

John Turner [00:05:14] Yeah, absolutely. It is. It is. It's just surprising how quickly everything fell apart. Right. Because there are these months in which Joseph is instilling this decorum and order and hierarchy, and then a year later, it all goes to shambles. And. Yeah, it's a. It's a reversal of fortune, to be sure.

John Dehlin [00:05:43] Yeah. So, all right, so, of course, this podcast is best consumed chronologically. We. We provide it in a playlist on YouTube, the Joe Smith Podcast playlist on the Mormon Stories podcast channel. Go. If you haven't watched the previous episodes, go back and watch it. We're also providing it as a standalone podcast on Spotify and on Apple Podcast. Or you can pick and choose and find these episodes in the traditional Mormon Stories podcast stream. All right, John Turner, so maybe let's start out today with the financial shape the Kirtland Temple left Joseph Smith and the church in. Is that okay?

Joseph Smith's Financial Desperation in Kirtland

John Turner [00:06:25] Absolutely. Because Joseph felt increasing financial desperation and partly because of that, did increasingly desperate things to try to solve financial problems. And that. That is the root of a lot of the folly that we're talking about this week. So, yeah, you're right. A couple of episodes we Go. We talked about the soaring success of the completion of the Kirtland temple, but that came at a steep price. Joseph and the church, church leaders more generally had to borrow a lot of money to pay for the temple's construction. The exact figures are uncertain, but according to reasonable estimates, church leaders were 13 or $14,000 in debt at the time of the building's completion. Joseph and other associates had additional debts as well. So once Pentecost is over, Joseph partly has to switch his attention to how do I meet these debts, how do I pay these bills? And you know, the church has been growing, but bringing in a large amount of money in a relatively small period of time. That is a real challenge for Joseph Smith. And typically when people borrowed sums of money back in the 1830s, there's often a steep repayment expectation. So you might pay everything back in one, two or three years. There weren't any 10 or 30 year bonds like institutions typically do today. So financial pressure could stack up really quickly.

John Dehlin [00:08:37] Okay, so Joseph's feeling the heat, trying to find a way out. And you talk a lot in this chapter about Andrew Jackson and a larger climate around banking and I'll even call it anti banking in the United states in the 1830s. What's wrong with the bank? Why would the president of the United States be viewed as anti bank? And what was the banking climate just in general?

The Chaotic Banking Climate of the 1830s

John Turner [00:09:08] Sure. So the banking climate by the mid-1830s was pretty much chaos. So today, you know, if you have some paper money in your wallet, it's all from the United, it's all the United States government. That's the, that's the source of those banknotes. In the 1830s, things were far more complex. There had been a bank of the United States, but then also states charter themselves, chartered banks which, which issued their own paper money biz. Some businesses simply put their own banknotes into circulation. Some people would start banks without any sort of government charter and would just sort of set up shop and start issuing currency. So it was very complex. The bank of the United States had maintained some check on this chaos because they essentially forced state chartered banks to keep some hard money, meaning silver and gold, on hand in order to redeem banknotes. And I realize this is going to get a little bit into the weeds, but I think this is an important point. If you, you know, if you have in your wallet a $1 bill, that piece of paper itself is the dollar. If you look at a banknote from the 1830s, such as those of the Kirtland Safety Society, it'll Say something like, the Kirtland Safety Society will pay the bearer of this note $1 on demand, essentially meaning if you have that banknote and you give it to the bank, they'll give you the equivalent dollar in silver or gold. So I think it's pretty hard for us who are used to, you know, simply seeing paper money and thinking of it at face value. And a lot of us, we don't, we don't even do that anymore. We're just making electronic payments and with our credit cards. It's hard for us to wrap our heads around how chaotic banking and paper money were in the mid-1830s.

John Dehlin [00:12:03] And why was Andrew Jackson seemingly running around trying to get banks to fail? Or did I read that wrong? It's almost like he was causing banks to fail by his monetary policy.

John Turner [00:12:16] Yeah. So Jackson objected to the power that the directors of the bank of the United States could wield. So in his mind, the bank of the United States essentially arrogated to itself the power to destroy state chartered banks as it saw failure fit. And so Jackson objected to that concentration of financial power also. Jackson, you know, and a lot of the Democratic Party, they simply, they preferred hard money, gold and silver to paper money. So there was a wing of the Democratic Party as a whole that objected to the whole concept of paper money and favored gold and silver. Jackson's main beef with the, with the bank of the United States was its concentration of financial power.

John Dehlin [00:13:28] Okay. And I know we're really getting in the weeds, but I think it's important so that we can understand what happens. I don't know that we always think of banks as like businesses, but basically what you start a bank, you hopefully have some assets there, and then you ask people to give you their money and put, store it in the bank. You give, you know, you keep track of how much money they put in, maybe you promise them some return on the investment. But then the bank doesn't just keep all that money in the bank and store it to keep it safe, which is one of the functions of the bank. It sounds like they also will either loan that money out to other people to get interest to make money off the interest, or invest that money to get a return. And so the bank is trying to make money by collecting assets, keeping enough to keep the bank solvent, but then investing in, in either loans or in other investments to just try and gain a profit.

John Turner [00:14:31] Right, Correct. Yeah. Banks definitely didn't exist to protect your money. They existed to make money. And in short, one way that a bank could make money would be to put banknotes into circulation as a form of loan. And if people in the surrounding area had confidence in the bank's ability to meet its obligations and to be able to redeem those notes for gold and silver, then those banknotes were. The word is current, where we get our word, currency. You know, people had confidence in them. You could, you know, you can buy and sell things with those notes. And as long as people had confidence in the bank, you know, that, you know, that worked just fine. If people lost confidence in the bank or their confidence in a bank wavered, that's when things became chaotic and dangerous. Because then anyone who would have that bank's notes would go to that bank as quickly as possible, demand their silver and gold. And if an institution ran out of its reserves of specie of gold and silver, then it would collapse.

John Dehlin [00:16:06] Okay, so specie means assets held at the bank, by the bank. You know, that would allow people to have confidence that enough of a percentage of the deposits are being held at the bank, such that if a certain percentage, not all of the people who've kept their savings at the bank needed to get it back, there'd be enough to satisfy the average or even heightened demand of the. Of the people banking with the bank. Is that right? The customers?

John Turner [00:16:42] No, that's correct. And typically, if a local bank was well run, people in the vicinity would have confidence in its banknotes. And if, you know, if a bank had a more impressive balance sheet and a larger profile, its notes might circulate at a wider radius. So the whole system depended on confidence of individuals in particular banks. And in the late 1830s, in the banking system in general.

John Dehlin [00:17:26] Okay. I think that gives us enough of a sense of, do we know if there was a bank in Kirtland at the time that Joseph. I guess. And God presumably decided to start a bank, there was already a bank there.

John Turner [00:17:41] That's a great question. I don't think so. I believe I know church leaders, and I think Kirtland's residents more generally, they relied on the bank of Geauga. So for Geoga county, which was in nearby Painesville, and that was actually an interesting situation. One of that bank's directors was Grandison Newell, who had financed Philastus Hurlbut's campaign against Joseph and the church. So you essentially had a situation in which Kirtland residents were dependent on a bank that was not friendly to them. Now, that bank of Gaga did extend credit to Joseph and his associates. But I think one can understand why Joseph might think that Kirtland needed its own bank and currency so they could essentially take, you know, greater control of, you know, their, their own economic interests.

Key Events Leading to the Kirtland Bank

John Dehlin [00:19:00] Okay, I, I have it here just at the top that September 11, 1836 was an important date. Let's get that out of the way because I think it's at least worth noting. Why are we noting September 11, 1836 in this chapter?

John Turner [00:19:18] So September 11, 1836, back in 1834, I think this actually stretches back to 1831. But in 1834, Joseph had, in the wake of the Zion's camp march, he had prophesied that Zion would finally be redeemed on September 11 or by September 11, 1836. It related to an earlier revelation that Kirtland would be a stronghold of, of Zion or something like that for, for five years, which was given back in 1831.

John Dehlin [00:20:00] And how'd that work out?

John Turner [00:20:02] Well, it didn't work out well. In fact, the, you know, Mormon settlers in Missouri were in this spring and summer of 1836, they were under renewed duress. So back in 1833, when the Mormons had been expelled from Jackson county, many of them took refuge in neighboring Clay county, just to the north of Jackson county over the Missouri River. And as they established themselves there, although they had first been more or less tolerated as refugees, within a couple of years their numbers had grown and non Mormons in Clay county wanted them to move on. And anti Mormon committees and groups formed. And in the summer of 1836, Mormon settlers in Clay county agreed to leave and they reorganized themselves further to the north in a less populated part of Missouri.

John Dehlin [00:21:18] So if Joseph made the promise that by September 11, 1836, Zion would be redeemed, were there members who like, held him accountable or said, hey, you promised this, we've been waiting around. Or was there any accountability to Joseph for the prophecies that he made with dates attached?

John Turner [00:21:41] Yeah, I would say not in this case, John. And I would think a lot of church members would have remembered those predictions. There also was, you know, a lot of rhetoric at the time of the Kirtland temples dedication that if any more church members were driven from their lands, the Saints would not rest until they were avenged. And then just a couple of months later, the Saints are essentially again driven from a county. And there's no, not much of a response from Joseph Smith. He essentially endorses the decisions that Missouri leaders, church leaders have made. And there's, yeah, I would say there's just not, there's not a closer or most more vociferous Engagement on the prophet's part.

John Dehlin [00:22:50] So I guess we're learning that humans who are following someone who claims to be a prophet have a very high threshold for continued devotion, even if and when some or many prophecies just aren't fulfilled. That's. Humans have a very high resilience. Believing religious humans have a very high resilience to keep demonstrating devotion even after multiple prophecies just don't come true.

John Turner [00:23:17] Well, I think that's true. I think. I think also church members throughout this whole sort of sequence of conflicts in Missouri, when things go south, they don't blame Joseph Smith for a false prophecy. They blame their enemies for persecuting them,

John Dehlin [00:23:44] or maybe themselves for not being righteous enough sometimes. Maybe.

John Turner [00:23:49] Maybe. I mean, I think some of, you know, a number of Joseph's revelations and statements go in that direction. I don't know whether very many of the saints buy into that thinking. I'm thinking they blame their enemies.

John Dehlin [00:24:05] Got it. Okay. I'm glad we mentioned that. So where did the idea for the Church of Jesus Christ? Is it the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints? By this point, I would lose track.

John Turner [00:24:18] I think at this point we're getting to the point where it's the Church of the Latter Day Saints.

John Dehlin [00:24:24] Okay. Okay.

John Turner [00:24:25] I think it's 1838 that you first see what becomes the full name of the church.

John Dehlin [00:24:31] Okay, so where did the idea for the Church of the Latter Day Saints to create a bank in Kirtland or a safe society come from? Was it revelation from God? Was it just Joseph's idea? Combination of the two?

John Turner [00:24:45] Great question. So maybe to tell a little bit of an additional story. So Joseph has this pressing need to meet these financial obligations by the summer of 1836. At the end of July, he leaves Kirtland in the company of Oliver Cowdery, Sidney Rigdon, maybe one or two other folks, and they travel to New York and then ultimately to Salem, Massachusetts. And the reason for going to Salem is super curious. Joseph apparently has gotten a tip from a church member that there's a house in Salem with a valuable treasure in its cellar. You know, a large amount of money, maybe, you know, a pile of silver, something like that. And Joseph believes, or is led to believe that if he can acquire that property, he's going to get the treasure and solve his money problems in short order. And so in a way, this is an 1836 treasure quest which also doesn't pan out. According to what Joseph writes, Emma, they do. He is able to identify the house. It's uncertain whether they are able to buy or rent it, but they leave New England without any treasure chest or pile of money.

John Dehlin [00:26:42] So even though he received a revelation that he should go get it, right?

John Turner [00:26:47] So it's interesting. So there's a revelation that he dictates that the Lord has much treasure in this city for them. Concern not yourselves about your debts, for I will give you power to pay them. And I think, yeah, the little, the literal reading of that revelation is you're going to get the treasure. Which, you know, that turns out not to be the case. I think it's during this trip that Joseph, Oliver Cowdery and the others discuss the idea of starting a bank. It's not clear to me if the idea originates from Joseph Oliver God, but by the time Joseph and company are back in, in Kirtland, they are ready to move forward with the bank idea. Joseph sends Oliver Cowdery and Hyrum Smith to New York City to purchase a safe and to purchase printing plates. They start finding investors for this bank and they're essentially ready to start their operation by the end of, of the year.

John Dehlin [00:28:23] That treasure digging expedition in Boston, it almost feels like he's falling back on his old ways out of desperation to try and fix a financial problem. Is that an unfair, uncharitable way to kind of interpret that?

John Turner [00:28:40] Yeah, I mean, so I don't think the methods are the same that Joseph used back in the mid-1820s. So as far as I know, he's not looking into his seer stone to try to find out where the house is, though you never know. It's always possible, I think. I think it really simply speaks to Joseph's desperation, you know. So this church member tells him, hey, there's this house in Salem, there's this money in the cellar, and if you can acquire the house, you're going to get the money. And you know, if I told you, John Dehlin, you know, there's this, you know, there's this house in Cedar City. If you can get it. I don't know exactly where it is. It's in this neighborhood. But ask around and if you can, if he can get it, you know, you'll have a million dollars. You might think it was worth the trip, but you might also be more financially prudent than Joseph Smith. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:29:44] But God endorsed the expedition, right? So is that right? So, I mean, there's divine sanction of the expedition.

John Turner [00:29:53] There is divine sanction. So the Lord says that he's not displeased that they've come that there's treasure in this city for. For them, and promises that they're going to be able to pay their debts. They shouldn't be, you know, they shouldn't be concerned about them. They should. They should have faith.

John Dehlin [00:30:17] And this is all on the heels of the Fanny Auger scandal breaking out, which we covered last episode with, with Emma and Oliver and maybe a few others, you know, exposing Joseph into. In a likely adulterous affair. Correct.

John Turner [00:30:33] That's my interpretation. And whatever transpired between Joseph and Fanny, I think it definitively ends when Joseph leaves on this trip to New York and New England. So by July 25, 1836. And yeah, so Joseph really has his hands full. You know, there are troubles for the church in Missouri to which I don't think Joseph really gives his full attention. There's the fallout from Fanny Alger and then there's this financial pressure in Kirtland.

John Dehlin [00:31:15] It almost gives the vibes of like a Hollywood movie, sort of like bank heist. It's like they know that this house has treasure, but it's currently occupied. And don't they end up renting it or buying it to get access? I almost expected them to break in at night and try and break into the cellar to find the treasure. It seems kind of like a fool's errand, but also kind of comical. But clearly it was serious to them or they wouldn't have been spending their time this way.

John Turner [00:31:49] Yeah, no, it is kind of comical and I think also a little erratic. Right. On Joseph's part, I think that'd be. I think that would be fair to say. So, he writes Emma in mid August, we have found the house, but the house is occupied and it will require much care and patience to rent and buy it. And within a couple weeks, they're on the road. So they apparently didn't have that much patience. According to Ebenezer Robinson, who was a church member at the time, who was reasonably close to Joseph smith in the mid-1830s, he wrote an account of this many decades later. He suggests that Joseph was able to rent the house and failed to find any treasure, but I think it's uncertain. It may be that they just gave up and left and headed back to Kirtland.

John Dehlin [00:32:59] Yeah, and I'm almost getting the sense that Joseph's got his colleagues saying, we're in debt. What are we going to do? And the scandal with Fanny Algara happens. It's. It's in Joseph's mind. Man, I got to get out of town and let's go try and find some Money. And maybe he's stalling. Maybe he's just avoiding the drama back at home. It does seem like a fool's errand. And to get rich quick scheme, which. Which I think the Mormons have a. A reputation for pursuing even to this day, in terms of the MLM stuff that seems to happen a lot in, in Utah. So it's, it's interesting kind of foreshadowing of at least our culture's affinity towards get rich schemes a little bit sometimes. I thought it was interesting what he writes to Emma in that letter on the top of page 199. Do you want to read that, John Turner?

Joseph Smith's Letters from Salem and Early Bank Plans

John Turner [00:34:02] Sure. So he writes, believe me that I am your sincere friend and husband. I think that's the conclusion of one of Joseph's letters to Emma Smith from Salem, Massachusetts, where they're looking for this house and money. So my interpretation of that, and I would readily concede I may be reading into it, is that it reads a bit like a plea for forgiveness. I do think it seems that by the time Joseph gets back to Kirtland, you know, there's no particular evidence of ongoing strain in their marriage because of Fanny Alger. There is strain for the household by the following spring, but that seems to be because of financial and legal pressure rather than conflict between Joseph and Emma.

John Dehlin [00:35:01] Yeah. Okay, so they leave. They leave Salem. Some people find it interesting that Joseph spent some time learning about the Salem witch trials. Is that right? And is that interesting to you, John Turner?

John Turner [00:35:15] Well, I always like those little details, you know, of what, what people are doing with their spare time. And basically they're in Salem for a few weeks. They, I think, you know, they may have done a little bit of preaching though, possibly Sydney Rigdon more than Joseph. So they go to the East Indian Marine Society Museum. They went to see Witch Hill, as it was known, where victims of the 1692 witchcraft trials had been hanged. They also went to see the remains of a Catholic convent that a mob had burned down several years earlier. So, yeah, you know, they're kind of, in a way, they're killing time as they try to figure out where this house and treasure are. So, you know, they take advantage of being somewhere new, different and interesting.

John Dehlin [00:36:15] I imagine there wouldn't have been a Salem witch trial museum back in the 1830s. 30s.

John Turner [00:36:22] I don't think he could do a ghost story at night or, you know, that whole industry of Salem hadn't quite come into being yet.

John Dehlin [00:36:30] Julia's mentioning that maybe Joseph had in his ancestors people who participated in the Salem witch Hunts, I guess. But really quickly, what would have been the public perception of those witch trials back in the 1830s, that it was sort of like a moral panic where they really weren't witches, but women were just being falsely accused by men with false supernatural claims? Or would it have been like, whoa, there were really witches and wow, good thing they all got killed. Do you have a sense for what the common perceptions of the witch trials would have been back in the 1830s?

John Turner [00:37:13] So I am pretty confident that in the 1830s, the perception would have been that these people were falsely accused and that it was the result of hysteria.

John Dehlin [00:37:28] Oh, really? Even as early as 1830s, they would have. They would have understood the concept of hysteria and moral panics. That's interesting.

John Turner [00:37:38] I mean, my sense is that very soon after the witch trials, you have some participants, say judicial participants in what took place who feel guilty and recognize it as a hysteria that did not rest on legitimate evidence. Now, you could find some people, certainly in the immediate aftermath who wouldn't have agreed with that. But I think by the 1830s, that would have been the clear view of the vast majority of people in Salem and in the rest of the country.

John Dehlin [00:38:24] Fascinating. All right, John, thanks for all the color you're able to share. All right. So at some point, Joseph's got a face, the saints back in Kirtland, his debts, the Kirtland being cash poor. We talked about Andrew Jackson, the national bank and banks. Just to kind of be fair, in the context of this bank that's about to get start ultimately failing. Not to give the ending away. Lots of banks were failing during this time. Is that correct?

John Turner [00:38:59] So that's true, but not quite yet. I mean, there are plenty of banks that are always failing, but there's a national bank panic in really the spring of 1837.

John Dehlin [00:39:14] Okay.

John Turner [00:39:15] And that actually post dates the faltering of the Kirtland bank.

John Dehlin [00:39:27] Okay, so this comes. You're saying the Kirtland bank fails before there's a big wave of bank failures in 1837.

John Turner [00:39:35] Correct. Or at least it has substantially faltered by then.

John Dehlin [00:39:40] But you're saying that the bank of the United States was insisting that banks had enough specie to cover, I guess, you know, their. Their debts or whatever, and that that was causing a lot of banks to collapse, you know, during this time frame.

John Turner [00:40:00] Well, so the bank of the United States had. Had this procedure essentially for rooting out financially unhealthy state chartered banks. That's a good.

John Dehlin [00:40:15] That's a good. I mean, that's a good thing, right?

John Turner [00:40:18] Well, it's a good thing. It sounds like a good thing in the mind of Andrew Jackson. It gave too much power. It gave too much power especially, I mean, Jackson just had this long standing feud with the director of the bank of the United States. And so the Bank Congress attempted to renew the charter of the bank of the United States in 1832. Jackson vetoed the renewal bill right before Jackson. Well, not right before, but not too long before he left the White House, Jackson issued what became known as the Specie circular, which required payment for federal land purchases in gold or silver. So that meant that a lot of individuals, they needed to redeem their paper money for gold and silver. That further weakened the banking system. So there was a lot of trouble on the horizon. By the time Joseph Smith and his associates started the bank, this then evolved into a more widespread banking panic the following spring.

John Dehlin [00:41:48] Okay, and I was going to say I don't think we have a Federal bank of America today per se, but then I realized we have the Federal Reserve Bank. So did the Bank Jackson was fighting Dai, or did it just end up evolving into the Federal Reserve bank that we have today?

John Turner [00:42:06] So it died.

John Dehlin [00:42:07] Okay.

John Turner [00:42:08] And I believe the Federal Reserve banking system, I believe it was established in the nineteen teens.

John Dehlin [00:42:16] Oh, okay.

John Turner [00:42:17] But that's getting a little far afield for me.

John Dehlin [00:42:20] Yeah, yeah. Okay. All right. So Joseph sends some folks to New York to get some plates and a safe. And he's still got to get the. I assume he wants to create a state bank. So he's got to convince, what, the state of Ohio to approve the Kirtland Banking Society. How does that go?

John Turner [00:42:42] Well, it doesn't go well at all. So they basically have these plans, well in progress, I think, where people are beginning to invest in the bank. And then Joseph sends Orson Hyde, who's an apostle, sends him to meet with the Ohio state legislature at the time. The state legislature is controlled by what you would call hard money, Democrats. Democrats who just generally didn't like paper money. And so they weren't interested in chartering additional banks. I think in December, when Hyde goes to Columbus, I don't think they vote on his proposal. You know, they're just not interested. By that point. The leaders of the bank, the Kirtland bank, have already begun printing banknotes. And so it's at that point that they stamp anti in front of bank on some of those notes at the thinking being they're concerned about operating an unchartered bank.

John Dehlin [00:44:05] Which is illegal. Correct?

John Turner [00:44:07] Which is illegal. So. But then maybe it would not be illegal to operate an anti company.

John Dehlin [00:44:19] Okay, a couple things. So first of all, how, like, in my mind, I'm like, I would never even buy the safe or the plates, let alone start printing currency until I had gotten approval. Not. Not for any other reason than that. I just wouldn't want to waste the money if I didn't have the approval. But there is the. There is the also potential problem of getting ahead of yourself in a way that becomes illegal. So how normal do you think it would have been for someone not related to any religion who wants to start a bank? You know, they haven't. Maybe they've applied or maybe they've sent some people to talk to the right people, but they just, as a matter of faith and optimism, buy the safe, buy the plates, start printing the currency. Even though, you know, is that already foul play? Or is that just normal business optimism in your view? Or could you even make that call?

John Turner [00:45:17] No. It's a great question. So I think it's a little bit hard for us to get ourselves in the mindset of the mid-1830s. So today, if, let's say you wanted to start the Mormon Stories bank, right, and you just started issuing Mormon stories currency, you would get. You'd get in trouble with the authorities really quickly. They would, they would shut it down. Right? But in the mid-1830s, it is sort of the wild west of banking. And there are railroad companies that start issuing paper money. There are people who start unchartered banks. So not everyone chooses to jump through the proper hoops. And rules vary from state to state. In Ohio, I do agree this is risky. There's an. There's an 1816 law that threatened individuals who operated an unchartered bank with $1,000 fine, which is a stiff fine at this time. There was also an 1824 law that declared that the notes of unchartered banks were void and therefore worthless. So, yes, a more prudent step would have been to try to get approval before going down this road. I think perhaps one reason why Joseph and his associates don't do that is because it's. It's probably easier to get approval if you can convince state legislators that you're sort of legit in the sense that they have already taken in deposits and investors. They have their safe and printing plates like they're ready to go.

The Kirtland Safety Society and Unauthorized Currency

John Dehlin [00:47:23] I mean, that's like. That's like creating a drug that isn't FDA approved and you want to apply to get FDA approval. So you just start selling the drug on the market, hoping that by Just selling the market anyway. And nobody's complained of dying yet. The FDA will go, well, they've already started selling it and we haven't heard of any debts. So I guess we're more inclined to approve the drug now. I don't know. That's probably about an unfair analogy.

John Turner [00:47:51] I mean, I think that, I think the thing is, it's the whole world of American banking in the mid-1830s. It is pretty loosey goosey. So the odds that you would necessarily get in trouble for operating an unchartered bank, they're not like they would be in 2025. I do think, however, the fact that they alter some of the notes to read anti banking company, that just shows you how amateurish this whole effort is. Like the, this is, this is on shaky ground. And as I said, banking and paper money, they rest on confidence. And so putting notes into circulation that are stamped Anti banking company, that is probably not going to instill confidence. And the reality is if these notes had only circulated among friendly church members, maybe there wouldn't have been a problem. But of course, people who, you know, have these notes, they're going to want to use them to meet their financial obligations. So you know, church member is going to want to pay his neighbor who's not a member of the church with Kirtland Safety Society notes. And is that individual going to have confidence in them? So yeah, this is not a well thought through operation.

John Dehlin [00:49:30] Yeah. And I have to admit that, you know, for the first 30 years of my life, I didn't know any of this, even though I was raised LDS when I saw. I mean, just imagine everybody, for those who are new to this story, you're reading about this bank that gets started that you were never taught about as a member of the church, and then you learn that they couldn't get the approval fast enough, but they went ahead and printed the currency anyway. And so they it said Kirtland Safety Society and then they stamped the word anti just so that they can keep printing and using money that they do not yet have the permission to use and the approval to use. I mean, that already starts screaming of amateurishness at best, but fraud at worst. Because how in the world are they thinking that's going to be okay? That whoever the state or the federal officials who are in charge of making sure banks are approved are going to go, oh, oh, it says it's stamped Anti anti bank. Oh no, no harm, no foul. Because you put anti there like that doesn't make any sense at all. Makes no sense. Zero sense, Negative sense. Does that make. It's like telegraphing. You're doing something really fraudulent. Don't worry, it's not a bank. It's an anti bank.

John Turner [00:50:56] Right. Well, and I think they actually, they realized this was a bad idea, so they stopped doing it pretty quickly.

John Dehlin [00:51:02] Whose idea was it? Was that Joseph's idea?

John Turner [00:51:04] I don't know. I, I have no idea. Probably not. I mean, could have been his idea, could have been Oliver Cowdery's idea, could have been Sidney Rigdon's idea. It was a bad idea. We can agree on that.

John Dehlin [00:51:22] All right, so. But that's, but that's where it was. Okay, so what is the price? I read here you wrote Joseph bought 3,000 shares worth a stated value of $150,000 with an initial payment of $1,342.69. How in the world do you spend $1,300 to get shares worth 150,000?

John Turner [00:51:50] Like that?

John Dehlin [00:51:52] That seems weird. That seems like favorable pricing.

John Turner [00:51:56] So it is pretty weird, John. So let me take a crack at explaining. So the bank wanted to be able to put, you know, a certain amount of notes into circulation. So I think their, their first sort of effusion, if you will, of paper money comes from loans that put $10,000 worth of notes into circulation. So they don't have, I don't think they take in $10,000 in investments. I think what they did was they sold shares in the bank and they sold them for a fraction of their stated value. So in theory, a share was worth $50, but you pay like a very small percentage of that to, to buy in. Now that doesn't actually mean that suddenly you have, in Joseph, Joseph's case, it doesn't mean you actually own shares that are really worth $150,000. It simply means the bank takes in a relatively small amount of investment, hopefully a certain amount of silver and gold, probably notes of other banks primarily. And then the bank starts issuing loans and by when it does so, it's loaning out its own paper money. So that's the way it puts these notes into circulation.

John Dehlin [00:53:57] Okay, so is that sketchy what he's doing? Is he giving himself favorable pricing or not, in your view?

John Turner [00:54:05] He's not giving himself alone favorable pricing, like in theory. What this means is that whether you're Joseph Smith or Brigham Young who invests in the bank or John Johnson who invests in the bank, what it means is that if the bank really prospered, you would get a fabulous return on your initially small investment. But that return, that potential return, that hinges on the bank's success. So it's not as if Joseph puts in 1300 and gets 150,000 out. You know, that windfall just never arrives.

John Dehlin [00:54:55] Okay. And, you know, I've, I, I was interviewing an ex Scientologist, and he once accused Scientology of being, you know, basically a corporation masquerading as a religion. What, what do we make of this idea? Like, I'm, I'm sure Joseph doesn't have any money that he actually earns on the side from a store or some side business he's running. Like, all the money he gets comes from members and donations and the generosity of his followers. And then what's it about a church starting a bank anyway? Is this a normal type of thing that churches would do in New England in the 1830s? Would churches be intermingling, you know, these types of things, commerce with, with religion?

John Turner [00:55:53] So this actually is something that points to the distinctiveness of the Church of the Latter Day Saints. So by the way, you said Joseph isn't making money on the side. Well, he's trying to. He actually is also. He's also borrowing money for merchandising operation at the same time. I mean, he also opens a store in Nauvoo. So Joseph actually always has a side hustle. They just never really make him very much money. So technically, this is not a subsidiary of the church. This is formed by. By a initial group of directors and investors. Now, that's synonymous with the leadership of the church in general. Would other churches do this? No, but I think one of the distinctive things about the Church of Christ, then, Church of Latter Day Saints, the movement started by Joseph Smith, is they are attempting to establish Zion on earth. They are building communities. So they're not primarily trying to spread a religious movement across the country in which individual congregations will build church buildings. They're trying to. They're trying to build communities in northeastern Ohio and Missouri. Now, one of the, you know, there are sort of two rationales for the bank. Number one, this is going to help Joseph and his associates paid. Pay off the debts that they have accrued.

John Dehlin [00:57:53] Second, for church for, like the temple, Right?

John Turner [00:57:57] Like, Correct. Exactly, exactly. Not only that, they've also purchased lands in Kirtland and Missouri, so they have a substantial amount of other debts as well. They need to pay off those debts. And they also want Kirtland and by extension, themselves to prosper. So people have been moving into Kirtland. Real estate prices are rising in general. It's a community. And this is common in the United States at this time. It's land rich and cash poor. Now, you know, listeners are probably familiar, familiar today with the federal, federal government sometimes trying to encourage economic growth by putting more money into circulation. Right? More, more money either by spending or perhaps lower interest rates. More money in circulation equals, you know, more economic activity. Well, part of the goal is if you put $10,000 worth of, of currency in circulation in and around Kirtland, it's going to give the economy a jolt. And actually, for a short time, this seems to work. People are moving in, homes are being built, wages are rising, property values are going up. Church members are writing letters about this in January of 1837. So it seems, you know, for a very short time that this could be a good idea. And then it all goes south really quickly.

John Dehlin [01:00:00] Okay, so, and, and by the way, just for the fun visually, here's, here's a copy of a Kirtland safety. Here's a visual copy of the Kirtland Safety Society Bank. And it's hard to see, but the anti is stamped really small. It's almost like a hyphen. Like you really wouldn't see it unless you were really looking closely. Is that fair to say, JOHN Turner?

John Turner [01:00:29] Totally fair to say.

John Dehlin [01:00:31] Yeah.

John Turner [01:00:31] It's actually, it's a little bit clearer on some of them than it is on your, your example, but absolutely. And you can see if you're watching this, this is a note that's signed on January 4th of 1837 by Joseph Smith and Signe Rigdon. And as I was saying before, if you look, it's a little bit different than if you look at your $1 bill in your wallet. It says, we'll pay $1 on demand to the bearer of the note. And so if you had this, you were entitled to $1's worth of gold or silver.

John Dehlin [01:01:16] And it's got a photo of what, a guy shearing a lamb, bunch of sheep behind him. So he's, I guess he's shearing wool off a lamb. And are those railroads like the little photos of railroads? There's industry, there's looks like it, smoke or something. Were railroads existing back then? At this point?

John Turner [01:01:37] They, they did. I mean, passenger rail was not yet a big thing, but it was a thing. And if, if listeners are interested, they printed notes into nominations from one dollar to a hundred dollars. They're all quite lovely. So they have, you know, they're kind of, they got nice printing plates. And so the scenes on them are often like, bucolic and very pleasant.

John Dehlin [01:02:04] That good graphic designers back then.

John Turner [01:02:07] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:02:07] Okay. And again, you know, I'm reading in your book that Sidney Rigdon was the bank's president and Joseph was its cashier. I think you've answered this. But was this church owned and run or was it. It just so happened that the church's leaders were also running a bank. Like it, it's shady in the sense that if they're trying to make it look like it's not a church run bank, it kind of is a church run bank. Unless they're just doing it as a church. It, you know. And then again, I'm going to ask you, is anybody saying why is a Christian church running a bank? Is, is anybody concerned about this?

John Turner [01:02:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:54] At this point?

John Turner [01:02:55] Yeah. So I think initially people within the church. I don't think there are records of people within the church being concerned. As soon as these go into circulation, people on the outside take note and question this. Not so much. And just to answer your question, this is, it's not a church bank per se, legally. But yes, it's a, it's a bank run by the leaders of a church. And I do think this next point is important. It's a bank, it doesn't have a state charter, but it's got the Lord's blessing. And I think that's, I think that's important. I'm not saying that, only just tongue in cheek. Joseph explicitly tells people at a gathering in early January of 1837 that he has received the word of the Lord upon the subject of the Kirtland Safety Society. And Joseph, he doesn't just say, I think the Lord is going to bless this project. He, he says he's heard an audible voice from God and he assures his followers. There's a customary little bit of hedging here, but he assures his followers that all would be well if they heeded the Lord's commandments. So he very much gives the bank divine sanction.

John Dehlin [01:04:36] And what's the benefit to Joseph of clarifying that it wasn't just he didn't just hear the voice of God, he heard it audibly. What's he doing there, you know, for the confidence and the minds of his followers?

John Turner [01:04:52] Yeah, I think it's to, you know, clarify that what he's, what he's interpreting really comes directly from God. It's not just in his mind.

John Dehlin [01:05:08] Was there any doubt? I mean, that's really interesting because we've talked a lot about spiritual eyes versus physical eyes as it related to the plates and other sorts of things. I guess it does infer that there was this idea in the minds of people, church members, that you could see or hear things with your spiritual eyes and you can see here things with your physical eyes, and that there might be some question in their mind. And so Joseph needed to make it really clear to leave no doubt about was my physical ears that heard it like that. That also is problematic in the sense if we think about confidence men. He's trying to use that claim to gain more confidence with the membership. Is that fair?

John Turner [01:06:01] Well, I think it's totally fair and it's apt in this case because paper money rests on confidence. If people are confident. If, if people have confidence in a bank's paper money, then it's stable and secure. If they lack confidence, things can go badly quickly. So yes, Joseph wants church members to have confidence in the Kirtland Safety Society notes. And so I think saying that he heard an audible voice, that's a way of really emphasizing that point, like, I really heard from the Lord that all will be well.

John Dehlin [01:06:46] And these days I'm trying not to really come at the church with a heavy hand. I'm trying to learn objectivity and fair mindedness from you, John Turner. But you know, when people are concerned about the mix, you know, I've said this before on the podcast L. Ron Hubbard, the founder of Scientology, once said, if you want to get rich, start a business. If you want to get really rich, start a religion. I think that's not only because in the United States, religions are often tax exempt, but I think it's also because if you can convince people to give your money and time because you say God says so, that's a lot of undue influence that regular old corporations don't necessarily have the benefit of. So I guess I want to keep asking this question, like, is it inappropriate for Joseph to be telling everybody that God is sanctioning this bank and that they can feel safe depositing their money there, knowing what's going to happen to this bank? But also, like, I want to read some book on the intermingling of business and religion in the United States, because I want to know how unheard of it is for a bank, for a religion, for a church to be this intermingled in business as early as the 1830s, was this remarkable? Or were lots of other churches starting corporations and convincing people to follow God by investing in the business like this seems significant, especially in the context today of the Mormon Church being worth anywhere between 300 billion and a trillion dollars. I think we can see why Religion and business can be good partners.

John Turner [01:08:35] Yeah, I think what I'd say in this case is, well, I, maybe the simplest thing to say is let's, in this case, let the actions and the results speak for themselves. Because this is, this is the, this is a problem for Joseph Smith. Right. He has told his, he's told church members that the Lord is going to, you know, the Lord has told them that all will be well with the bank. And in a way he's also, in so doing, he's staking his own leadership on the bank's success. And it's very unwise because. And this speaks to the lack of wisdom of the whole enterprise. Joseph, ultimately can't control the bank's success.

John Dehlin [01:09:33] Yeah. Well, if any of our viewers or listeners know as well, I am dying to know how normal, unheard of it was for a church to get this deep into a business scheme or if that's normal in the 19th century.

The Bank Panic Begins and Notes Collapse

John Turner [01:09:52] It's not normal. I will see if I can dig up some parallels. I mean, I think historically you could find some parallels like dating way back. And I'm saying this because I wrote another book on the subject. This is a little bit far afield, but the, you know, the founders of Plymouth Colony, they're essentially planting, transplanting a congregation and starting a fur trading enterprise at the same time. And one of the Mayflower passengers, a guy named Edward Winslow, he says that his intention is to make religion and profit jump together. So you could find some other examples. But no, most church leaders are not starting banks in the 1830s. It's pretty much unheard of.

John Dehlin [01:10:46] Most people don't know that in the United States today, the Mooney, the Unification Church, I think they own like 50 to 60% of the fish wholesale business in the United States through I guess, wholly owned subsidy subsidiaries of the Unification Church. Like, if you eat sushi, there's a greater than 50% chance that it's the Unification Church owned wholesale fish business that supplied the fish for that sushi company. It's kind of crazy when, when you see how this works. Anyway, very cool, John. Okay, so. So the bank's going now. Let's just ask about specie. I. We may be getting ahead of ourselves, but to what this was like, this was probably a real death knell for my orthodox traditional faith when I learned about the specie in the Kirtland Safety Society bank or the lack thereof. Do you cover that in your book?

John Turner [01:11:51] Yeah. No. So this is. So like I said, things go south really quickly. So they are issuing these notes Essentially in early January, by mid January, you have newspapers in northeastern Ohio who complain about, you know, this Mormon money. And, you know, they, they make several complaints. They say the, the Safety society probably doesn't. Probably doesn't have the specie or any assets to redeem their notes. Other people notice that they've stamped anti on some of them, which they see as deceptive. And it's tiny, so, you know, you might not notice it. And then they're accused of being illegal, you know, because it's not approved, it doesn't have a state charter. And it never does.

John Dehlin [01:12:49] Correct. It never does.

John Turner [01:12:50] Never gets. When they make a second attempt to get one in February. But the state's legislature, at that point, it does take a vote and they lose. And so here's the thing about banking in the mid-1830s. It's not that hard to topple a bank that's poorly invested. So what happens, as far as we know, is Grandison Newell, who had funded that sort of anti Mormon information gathering campaign a couple of years ago, he is connected to the bank of Gallagher. So he knows how these things work. He orchestrated a run on the bank by buying up Kirtland notes and taking them to Kirtland for redemption. You know, basically showing up or probably sending somebody on his behalf with a fistful of notes saying, give me the gold or silver. And you know, within a couple of weeks before the end of January, the bank has to suspend specie payments. So at that point, if, say you had a few hundred dollars in Kirtland banknotes, you'd be pretty nervous that they might not be worth those few hundred dollars. And so the bank is really only on solid ground for a week or two. And you know, within three, four weeks it's on life support.

John Dehlin [01:14:27] This seems like a scene from It's a Wonderful Life, you know, when the George Bailey in the Savings and loan and then Mr. Potter decides he's going to, you know, cause a run on the bank and bankrupt.

John Turner [01:14:41] Right. That kind of thing. Right.

John Dehlin [01:14:44] And George. And George is running around the neighborhood like in a panic, realizing that he's ruined. I'm ruined. Yeah. Jimmy Stewart's I'm ruined. You know.

John Turner [01:14:54] Right. I mean, basically, if, if these notes had only passed among church members, it might have been okay. But this bank is so vulnerable that, yeah, this is a. It's like easy pickings for Joseph's local opponents. I mean, they, they could do this bank in within a couple of weeks.

John Dehlin [01:15:20] I had it written that God and Joseph must have believed in spiritual species.

John Turner [01:15:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:15:28] What do you think that's pretty good? No, but what this is, again, one of the most disturbing things is there aren't there reports that if you could go into the bank and go to some place where it would look like they had gold in a big repository, but really it was like fake stuff, like only the top layer would show gold, but there was fake stuff underneath that top layer. So they were literally giving a false impression of how much gold they had on reserves and deceiving people explicitly in that way. Or is that not what you understand?

John Turner [01:16:07] I don't know. I mean there, there are stories along those lines. I don't actually know whether they're true. I don't know how much, I don't think anybody knows how much specie they actually had on hand. You know, they, they had taken in, can't remember. So Joseph had invested apparently 1300. Kind of trying to think what the total amount they took in was. Maybe 5 or 10,000 at most. And it's unclear how much of that was in specie and how much of that was maybe in the notes of other banks. I mean, not a lot of church members had a lot of, you know, precious metal on hand. So given how quickly the bank collapses, they clearly didn't have very much in terms of reserves.

John Dehlin [01:16:58] Yeah, Julia's looking for the reference, but she's remembering what I remembered, which is literally they had a box full of sand with some layer of gold or gold appearing substance on the top to make it look like it was solid gold reserves. And again when I read that, and maybe I misread it, or maybe it's, I mean, the fact that you didn't include it suggests to me that you didn't. Maybe you stumbled on it, but the source wasn't reliable or credible enough to include. Is that something we should maybe assume because, you know, you, you do leave no stones unturned.

John Turner [01:17:36] John Turner, I, I try not to. So, yeah, I don't, I just don't know. I don't know how much they had. And I mean, I think this descends into acrimony so quickly that then retrospective accounts, it's a little bit hard to know. What's clear is that they had very little specie on hand. And so it wasn't hard for Grandison Newell to, you know, basically strike a death blow against the Safety Society within a couple of weeks.

Public Reaction and Accusations Against Joseph Smith

John Dehlin [01:18:15] Okay, well, the quote, the quote that I have. Yeah, I'll share this, I'll share this on the screen. Julie may be able to find something better, but this is from an LDS discussions episode the Absurdities of Mormonism portrayed a brief sketch by Oliver H. Olney. It says 3rd of March 1843. As peddlers to and fro from the bank in with businessmen from different parts of the land, they see themselves in difficulty as gold and silver begin to be scarce. They got a hold of a quantity of boxes and nearly filled them with sand, lead, old iron, stone and combustibles. That's at least one reference. And again you're saying it doesn't matter because the bank failed. But, but I do think that just like the anti, the anti bank scribbling is, is really clearly problematic, but it's almost comical and transparently fraudulent. But if they're literally creating a box, putting boxes together that have the appearance of money on the top but have sand below, that's outright fraud. And that's another level of, of a problem versus just not managing the reserves properly, properly in good faith. Does that make sense now?

John Turner [01:19:44] That makes sense. So I, I'll look into Olney's comment and recollection a little bit more afterwards. I would say the two big problems are not enough specie, a lack of foresight. You could foresee that people who don't like Joseph Smith would be demanding redemption. That was a foreseeable problem I think. Then I think the other big issue that we've already touched on is Joseph is promising people that all will be well, that the Lord has told him that this is going to prosper. And so that I think probably was more persuasive to church members than subterfuge with gold and silver. I don't know. It's possible, but I think giving the bank that divine sanction was a big problem both in terms of inducing people to support the bank at first, but then also staking Joseph's own prophetic leadership to the bank's success.

John Dehlin [01:21:05] Okay. And again, don't be mad. John Turner. Julie is looking up sources just because we don't want to give people the wrong impression. There's another book that's called. Mormon Portraits I believe. And in the book it says they went to New York and had notes engraved, beautiful notes, the finest I'd ever seen. In the bank they kept eight or nine window glass boxes with which seemed to be full of silver. Okay, it's silver, not gold. But the initiated knew very well that they were full of sand. Only the top being covered with 50 cent pieces. The effect of these boxes, what's that?

John Turner [01:21:58] I think those would have been silver, but I'm not sure.

John Dehlin [01:22:00] Yeah, silver it Says silver.

John Turner [01:22:02] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:22:04] The effect of those boxes was like magic. They created general confidence in the solidity of the bank. And that beautiful paper money went like hotcakes. So like you said, that's how they sold the paper money was by having people believe that there was silver coins backing up the paper money. Is that right? I mean, theoretically. Right, John Turner.

John Turner [01:22:29] Yeah, that, that's what is alleged here. Now I actually would put more stock into Oliver Olney's early 1840s memory then this recollection from Chauncey Webb four decades later. I think it's definitely possible.

John Dehlin [01:22:48] Okay.

John Turner [01:22:49] I think we don't know. I don't know that. I mean there are a lot of people who are really angry about what, what takes place right. In 1837. And there's a lot of accusations going back and forth. Joseph ends up making some accusations against Warren Parish and Frederick G. Williams of the First Presidency. He accuses them of stealing bank deposits. You know, I think there's so much acrimony on both sides. It's, it's, it's a little bit hard to adjudicate.

John Dehlin [01:23:34] Yeah. And that's right. That book is from 1886. So it is a very late source. But it's something that I didn't want people to listen to this episode and not at least know that they were allegations of that sort. And we'll look forward to hearing from you, John Turner, if you learn more. I know that Dan Vogel and others listened to, to this and Ganesh. So if any of our amateur or professional historian listeners want to weigh in, if we see any of those comments, we'll share them next time because we do want to be accurate for sure. Okay. So the bank starts to implode. The Kirtland Safety Society, which is a. It is an ironic name at this point, right?

John Turner [01:24:23] It is a very ironic name. Yeah. Somebody. I don't know if I used the quote in the book or not, but somebody comments on the notes being as good as gold. Not exactly.

John Dehlin [01:24:37] But also things get quite unsafe pretty quickly to the point where Joseph. What happens to Joseph? What does Joseph do in respond to the scandal?

John Turner [01:24:46] So a couple of things. So they're desperately trying to stave off the banks failure. So he sends Orson Hyde back to Columbus to make another attempt at getting a charter. I think even, even if they'd gotten the charter, it wouldn't necessarily have solved the problem. Then Joseph himself goes to Michigan and he leaves.

John Dehlin [01:25:15] He leaves. He runs away. Is that, is that fair to say or not fair to say or. He's oh, he's trying to buy the other bank. That's right.

John Turner [01:25:22] Okay, he buys another bank.

John Dehlin [01:25:25] Does he actually buy it?

John Turner [01:25:27] He apparently acquires a controlling interest in bank of Monroe. Bank of Monroe, which is chartered in the state of Michigan. The problem was, as I point out in the book, the bank of Monroe itself is on the verge of collapse, which is why he's able to acquire a controlling interest so easily. So basically merging two really shaky banks, that's not helpful.

John Dehlin [01:25:56] I mean, one anti bank and one actual bank. But like that, that almost seems as kind of sophisticated. If you can't get a charter, go buy a failing bank to get your charter and merge the banks. That almost sounds sophisticated, right? Well, but it, but it doesn't work because the other, the Baker Monroe fails. Is that why?

John Turner [01:26:18] Yeah, exactly. It's, it's itself on shaky ground. It has to suspend specie payments in March. I mean, again, so the heart of banking in the mid-1830s, the heart of banking really at any time is confidence, right?

John Dehlin [01:26:37] Yeah, yeah.

John Turner [01:26:39] You know, if, you know, let's say you've got $50,000 in your savings account and we'll just leave out like the fdic. Let's say, you know, you get, you get wind that your bank might collapse, you're going to go there because your confidence is faltering and you want to get your money out as quickly as possible. And it's very hard to, it's very hard to reestablish confidence in something that is failing. I mean, I think the only solution would have been some massive, you know, infusion of specie, you know, some solid investment in the Kirtland bank. And nobody was in a position to do that. And certainly no one who had the means would have wanted to do it.

John Dehlin [01:27:34] Was that a fundamentally deceptive act to go try and buy an existing bank to get a charter? Because basically it's going to try and create the impression that they have approval when they, at that point they knew the bank was imploding. Right. It would have, it would have given people a false impression, wouldn't it? Have or not?

John Turner [01:27:54] Maybe. I think in part it's hard to know if they're, if they're trying to do that to save the bank. It's probably not going to work because it, people didn't have, people didn't lack confidence in the Kirtland bank because it lacked a charter. They lacked confidence in it because it lacked specie.

John Dehlin [01:28:15] Yeah, yeah.

John Turner [01:28:16] So it may have been an attempt to avoid possible prosecution for operating an unchartered bank. In that sense, maybe it could have been a decent workaround. I don't know.

The Panic of 1837 and Its Impact on Kirtland

John Dehlin [01:28:31] And then you mentioned, I think you mentioned earlier in this episode that timing couldn't have been worse because then a broader bank, what, failure wave hits the United States. Is that right?

John Turner [01:28:44] So The Panic of 1837 is essentially the failure of scores of banks across the country, I think, mostly starting in the spring of 1837. And it turns into essentially a bit of a national financial meltdown and economic depression. Now, I'm mentioning. I'm being a little precise on the timing because the Kirtland bank doesn't fail because of this widespread panic, like the Kirtland bank fails for locally specific reasons. Now, it makes it. I'm sure it created additional challenge in terms of trying to solve this problem. It was a difficult kind of.

John Dehlin [01:29:40] It didn't help.

John Turner [01:29:42] It didn't help. But it's not the reason why the bank.

John Dehlin [01:29:44] Yeah, yeah. Because apologists will often say that. They'll often say, don't hold it against Joseph or God. They won't say, God, don't hold it against Joseph because banks were failing all over the place. But what you're saying is the. The Kirtland Safety Society failed because it wasn't set up properly to begin with. And the wave of banks that failed later failed for totally different, well, totally unrelated reasons. And the Kirtland failure, the Kirtland Safety Societies bank failed unconnected to all the other failures in that wave of the panic of 1837. Right.

John Turner [01:30:24] You got it. John de la. That's exactly what I'm saying.

John Dehlin [01:30:27] Okay, so Joseph and the Lord don't get a pass is, I think, what we. What we should conclude from that.

John Turner [01:30:35] Yep, maybe.

John Dehlin [01:30:36] Okay, so Joseph's response after fleeing the state or, you know, going to Michigan or whatever, it seems like his response to the scandal, his next response to the scandal is to hold a solemn assembly. Why in the world would that be his next step?

John Turner [01:30:55] Well, that's a good question. I think really they're simply reprising the solemn assembly from the year before. And I don't. I don't actually think it's necessarily connected to the bank. It is sort of a mini Pentecost, as opposed to the major Pentecost of the year before. But, you know, the year before, Joseph's talking about the situation in Missouri. This time at the assembly, when Joseph is sermonizing and speaking, he talks about the banking crisis, and he wants to reassure them that Kirtland has a glorious future, essentially, if the saints continue to support the church. Bring themselves and their money to Kirtland. He's confident he and other church leaders will be able to settle their debts and the town will flourish. But it's pretty clear that the failure of the bank is irreversible by this point. Sidney Rigdon notes in a meeting that many of the church had refused Kirtland currency. So like church members are no longer even accepting these notes from other church members. They're that shaky.

John Dehlin [01:32:41] Is it kind of irresponsible for Joseph to hold a solemn assembly which denotes God and Jesus and you know, divine approval, and then tell them, according to your book, if the saints brought their money to Kirtland, the church's debts could be settled and the town would flourish. That's almost basically saying, hey saints, the failure of the bank is up to you, but also implying that God wants them to put their money in and save the bank. Am I reading that wrong?

John Turner [01:33:14] I don't think you're reading it totally wrong. Now like, first of all, why is Joseph saying this at the solemn assembly? Well, Joseph's giving a sermon to this large congregation. He can't really avoid the elephant in the room. I'm sure by early April 1837, and this has probably been the case for two and a half months, all anybody in Kirtland's talking about is the bank. And so Joseph needs to address it now. In a way it's a little. It may be unfair, but he's not wrong to say that the success of the bank hinges on church members faithfulness. Because it is true. If all church members have had kept their confidence in these banknotes and had continued to circulate them, the bank might have been able to pull through. The problem is it's really hard to restore confidence in a failing bank. And you know, people, people are wise to that. They're, they're, you know, they're. Everybody's nervous.

John Dehlin [01:34:28] I mean, how long would it have taken that bank to become solvent? Let's just say everyone kept their, you know, money in the bank, the bank would have still needed to become a solvent institution. Right.

John Turner [01:34:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:34:41] Well, I just, I could that have ever happened ever?

John Turner [01:34:44] I think it was hopeless because also Joseph's opponents, they were pretty shrewd. All they had to do was, you know, let's say you're Grandison Newell and you, John de Lynn, you've got some Kirtland money. Well, you're a little uncertain about it, but you know, you've got, say you've got $100 of Kirtland currency and you're worried it could be useless. Well, Grandison Newell is going to come along and say, well, I'll give you $50 for it in bank of Gaga notes. You're going to be thrilled. So you're gonna, you're going to make that deal and then he's going to try to redeem them for gold. Or, you know, it's just the bank from the start was vulnerable to a run and Joseph created circumstances that made himself and the church vulnerable to their enemies.

John Dehlin [01:35:44] And it does seem like another example of blame reversal, like we mentioned in Zion's Camp for kind of members to be given the impression that they were the ones to blame for the failure of the bank because clearly it was a fraudulent. I don't know if. Do you like the term fraud or do you feel like fraud doesn't apply because it was created with what, good intentions?

John Turner [01:36:10] So in this case, I would say. I would say it was mostly unwise and amateurish and it was illegal. So those three things, I mean, I don't think that. I don't think Joseph's intention was to defraud church members. I think he wanted the bank to prosper and I think he hoped that he would prosper and the community as a whole would prosper.

John Dehlin [01:36:45] Right, but, but if, if it's true that they had fake. They had faked the appearance of actual species and deposits, that's fraud, right?

John Turner [01:36:56] Of course that would be fraud.

Legal Troubles and Charges Against Joseph Smith

John Dehlin [01:36:58] Okay, so it gets to the point where someone accuses Joseph of threatening to kill them. That, I mean, that, that surprises me. That seems pretty shocking. Do you want to tell that story?

John Turner [01:37:10] Sure. I don't know a lot of detail about it, but Grandison Newell, again, who's one of the directors of the bank of Gyaga, and now he's been an active opponent of Joseph Smith for a few years. He swears a complaint before a justice of the peace that Joseph had threatened to kill him. A court apparently acquitted Joseph of the charge. In a way, it reminds me of Joseph's complaint against Philastus Hurlbut from a couple years earlier. I don't. I don't know. Joseph easily could have said something at a gathering. I'm sure he's really steamed at Grandison Newell for orchestrating this run on the Kirtland Bank. So, so if he said something about, you know, wanting to kill Grandison Newell, doesn't mean he was actually planning to kill him.

John Dehlin [01:38:14] But for you, it's, it's. With, it's, it's possible, it's within reason that Joseph did threaten to kill someone.

John Turner [01:38:20] Yeah. It may have just been a stupid, angry comment.

John Dehlin [01:38:24] Okay. And then again, things get so hot that what does Joseph decide to do again?

John Turner [01:38:30] So. So what. What is essentially going to happen from this point forward? This is April of 1837. For the next nine months, this financial crisis creates a situation in which Joseph's creditors sue him for payment. And he is constantly under duress from creditors and from sheriffs who are essentially supporting the complaints of his creditors. So he has no peace until he flees Kirtland for the last time early in 1838. So he's frequently on the run, he's frequently out of town, is on the lam.

John Dehlin [01:39:25] A fair thing to say.

John Turner [01:39:26] Oh, he's on the lam because I think at first he's evading. He's evading arrest and a hearing on that charge of threatening to kill Grandison Newell. And then a lot of the time he's trying to evade sheriffs who want to arrest him on charges pertaining to his debts. It is constant trouble for Joseph Smith until he clears out of Kirtland for the last time.

John Dehlin [01:40:05] Is this the most legal trouble he's been in since his treasure digging days? I'm trying to remember. Or. Or did things get really bad for him in Missouri during the Zion camp stuff? I'm trying to remember.

John Turner [01:40:20] So this is. This is the most legal trouble he's in until. In the aftermath of the Missouri Mormon War.

John Dehlin [01:40:30] Okay, so that's to come.

John Turner [01:40:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:40:33] It's okay.

John Turner [01:40:34] Yeah. It's mostly. It's mostly debts. And then later on this, he's charged with illegally operating an unchartered bank. And that also creates a big legal problem for him.

John Dehlin [01:40:50] And it's kind of 10 years from. It's kind of 10 years past his legal troubles in Pennsylvania. Right?

John Turner [01:40:57] Correct.

John Dehlin [01:40:58] Okay. So, all right, so you write that Joseph receives word from. Was it from Hiram that. That Kirtland isn't safe, Is that right?

John Turner [01:41:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:41:16] And. And so he goes to New York to hang with an old friend, Martin Harris.

John Turner [01:41:21] Yep. He goes, goes to spend a little time with Martin Harris and Palmyra. Now, Harris is often in Kirtland, so I don't know if they perhaps made the journey in tandem. It's not clear to me, but Hyrum basically warns Joseph, don't come back to Kirtland too quickly. It's too dangerous.

John Dehlin [01:41:51] I'm wondering if in the Articles of Faith that says that the Mormons believe in obeying, honoring and sustaining the law, that's one of the Articles of Faith that Joseph publishes at one Point, I believe prior to this event, I might be wrong. But is it honoring, obeying and sustaining the law to be fleeing the arms of justice when you know that you're in trouble for breaking the law?

John Turner [01:42:18] So that's a great question. I don't know if I really want to weigh in theologically. I think what I would do is I would try to separate instances in which Joseph has really done wrong and deserves to be held to account legally, and situations in which Joseph's enemies sort of take advantage of circumstances to afflict him legally. Now, let me just give you an example. You know, back in the fall of 1830, Joseph Smith Senior gets thrown in a Canandaigua, New York jail for the failure to pay a really small debt. So that kind of thing can happen. And you know what would. What would be typical is usually a creditor doesn't want to throw somebody in jail. They'll give them a little bit more time to pay. For Joseph Smith, once things start going south in Kirtland, all, almost all of his creditors put the screws on him. And so he's really under legal duress now. I do think later in the year, he and Signy Rigdon get charged and actually convicted in absentia for having broken Ohio laws against unchartered banks. And, I mean, I think that's fair. They operated an unchartered bank. What can you say in some of these other instances? Joseph's creditors, you know, they're. They're taking advantage of his weakness and. And putting the screws on him.

John Dehlin [01:44:08] But is it, I guess I'm asking in an 1830s context, is it dishonorable to intentionally flee the law when you know the law is trying to arrest you?

John Turner [01:44:21] Hmm, that's a good question.

John Dehlin [01:44:25] I guess if you think you're being unfairly or unjustly persecuted by the law, you could. You could feel like you have moral grounds to resist arrest. But I'm imagining Joseph didn't feel like he was being falsely accused here.

John Turner [01:44:43] Well, no, I think he does get acquitted of threatening to kill Grandison Newell. So he probably does feel like he's being falsely accused. Let me give you another example, and I'm not trying to apologize for Joseph's behavior in all of these instances, but in Nauvoo, Joseph frequently evades arrest because if he's arrested, he's going to be extradited to Missouri and he thinks he's going to get killed. Now, I don't really fault Joseph for trying to avoid that circumstance. What I think is a real problem in 1837 is. Once the bank starts to fail, everybody in Kirtland seems to turn on each other. And Joseph fails to provide steady leadership for the church during these months. I'm sure Joseph has some creditors who unfairly afflict him. I'm sure in some cases, he should have simply, you know, faced the charges. I think, again, I would say Joseph has almost throughout this whole episode. His behavior is erratic, uncertain. And once things begin to fall apart, Joseph's behavior certainly doesn't, you know, doesn't do much to stem the bleeding.

Emma's Struggles and the Smith Family's Hardship

John Dehlin [01:46:25] Okay. I was feeling sad for Emma because at this point, I guess they have three children. And I'm thinking Emma's just left alone to, you know, to take care of three children while Joseph's constantly fleeing. But you write that there are 20 people living with Emma in Emma's house.

John Turner [01:46:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:46:45] It almost feels like. I think I was thinking of, like, gilded age or Downton Abbey. Like, why. Why are so many people living with Emma?

John Turner [01:46:54] I mean, they do have their own house now, and so, I don't know. I don't have all the names, but there's Joseph's parents. There's three children. There are people boarding with them. There's some hired help. There are often visitors. So I don't know if there are always 20 people in this Smith home, But apparently, at least at one point, there are 20 people there. And, you know, Emma very much feels left in the lurch. You know, she writes, joseph, everybody has so much better right to all that is called yours than I have. And creditors are trying to essentially get legal attachment to property and the house to settle Joseph's debts.

John Dehlin [01:47:43] Yeah, and you mentioned the creditors were really angry. What is it? Give us a sense for how it really hurts people. Like, yeah, I think that's something we're not really talking about here. Joseph starts a bank. He did it as a. You know, as a fool's errand. It obviously wasn't professionally run. How does it actually hurt people in their lived lives that this bank was created so irresponsibly and run so poorly and ultimately fails.

John Turner [01:48:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:48:14] How does it hurt people?

John Turner [01:48:15] Great, Great question. So one example I give in the book is Parley Pratt. Pretty famous name to people familiar with early Mormon history and probably not someone that people think of as frequently at odds with Joseph Smith. But in this case, it's the bank and also this real estate bubble in Kirtland that, for a time, puts Parley Pratt at odds with Joseph Smith. So, Joseph, I don't know if this is maybe late 1836, early 1837, he sells three properties to Parley Pratt for $2,000. And there's a down, down payment of $75. And you know, these days if you buy a house, you know, you usually do it with like a 330 year mortgage, you know, for $2,000, you'd be paying what, 10 bucks a month for a long time. I forget the exact terms of this arrangement, but payment schedules were usually pretty steep. So I think Pratt maybe owed a big payment six months later or something like that. And Joseph, when he comes back to Kirtland in mid May, he's got this debt, you know, that Parley Pratt owes him. And he turns it over to the Kirtland Bank. And then Sidney Rigdon, as an officer of the bank, demands payment from Pratt. Now what Pratt says is, look, I don't have whatever it is at the time, $500, $1,000, maybe the full $2,000. Can I just give you the properties back that I bought from Joseph? And Rigdon says, no, no, you can't do that. You owe me the money. And he demands Pratt's house as payment. And Pratt is just steamed about this. And you know, he's steam because he also knows that Joseph himself, he had, he had bought these properties for something like $100. So this bubble has created this, you know, this sort of crazy situation. And Pratt apparently tries to meet with Joseph, can't get an audience with him, writes him a blistering letter in which he blames Joseph and Sidney for leading this people astray through false prophesying and preaching. And Pratt says that Joseph had made a sacred promise that Pratt, this is a quote, would not be injured through the land transaction. And now Pratt is facing ruin. And I think there are a number of situations like that. You know, Joseph had promised people that everything would be well. And now people are putting the screws on him. And at least in this instance, he in turn is willing to put the screws on Parley Pratt.

John Dehlin [01:51:44] What does it mean to be ruined in 18, in the 1830s? What does that even mean?

John Turner [01:51:49] That's a great question. So number one, loss of his house, in theory, if you couldn't meet your debts, you could be thrown in jail.

John Dehlin [01:52:02] So he'd become potentially homeless and potentially go to jail. That's pretty serious.

John Turner [01:52:09] Potentially. I mean, you know, maybe it wouldn't have gone quite that far. But you know, Pratt, obviously he's beside himself at the prospect of losing his house. But I think his basic complaint is that Joseph has been acting like a false Prophet.

John Dehlin [01:52:31] Yeah. And so on the one hand, I'm thinking finally somebody holds Joseph accountable for his prophecies not coming true. On the other hand, I'm. I don't know a lot about Parley P. Pratt other than he's a name you hear a lot being raised in the church. But I assume he stays faithful past Joseph's death. So even this doesn't end Parley P. Pratt's faithfulness to either the church or Joseph.

John Turner [01:52:59] So, yeah, I mean, for a stretch of time, he's disaffected. Then I think he and Joseph mend faces a couple of months later. But a lot of people. Well, there are a lot of people who temporarily lose their faith in Joseph, but there are others for whom, I mean, this is it. The, you know, President Frederick G. Williams of the First Presidency, Warren Parish, Lyman Johnson, John Johnson. I don't know how familiar the Johnson family is to listeners. They were stalwart supporters of Joseph Smith. Joseph was living in their home when he was assaulted and tarred and feathered in March of 1832. They were wealthy. Their property and wealth during these years had been sort of a financial backstop for the church. So that was a big deal. By the end of the year, Martin Harris, you know, who had. He had had his ups and downs with Joseph Smith, but. And this is not like the end of his association with the church, but he. He's sort of on the outs by the end of the year. So this is a really, really tough pill for a lot of church members to swallow.

John Dehlin [01:54:38] And again, Rigdon is kind of like Joseph's bulldog with Parley.

John Turner [01:54:44] Right, Right. Yep.

John Dehlin [01:54:46] What happens there?

John Turner [01:54:48] So Rigdon basically is the one who puts the screws on Joseph. So. So Pratt essentially owes Joseph nearly $2,000. And so Joseph turns that debt over to the bank to collect. I think it might have been a move that helped Joseph settle some other debts. I'm not. I'm not quite sure. But Rigdon then basically tried to collect on Pratt's loan. And of course, Pratt couldn't come close to paying. Paying, I assume, one way or another. Because Joseph is able to work things out with Parley Pratt. They must have found some way of settling the dispute.

John Dehlin [01:55:42] Yeah. And that's where just business and ecclesiastical leadership, that's really ugly. And some of the apostasies I've seen in my lifetime are just people where bishops or stake presidents or general authorities got involved in shady business deals using their religious or spiritual influence. And things just always get messy. So there's some who just say Religion and business kind of shouldn't mix. And it certainly went bad for Parley. And at one point, the Kirtland High Council tries to meet, and what happens?

John Turner [01:56:21] So that doesn't really. Yeah, at that point, you get it. Just a sense of paralysis. So, you know, charges are just going back and forth. Let's see. So Lyman Johnson and Orson Pratt, who are both apostles, they send a charge, basically an accusation to Bishop Whitney accusing Joseph of lying and misrepresentation for extortion, for speaking disrespectfully against his brethren behind their backs. And then Joseph's supporters bring charges of their own against some of the. The people who are now basically dissenters. Kirtland High Council met in the temple to discuss these charges. Joseph doesn't even show up. The council apparently just dispersed in confusion. So that basically you had financial chaos lead to ecclesiastical chaos.

Crisis in Church Leadership and Open Revolt

John Dehlin [01:57:33] And. Modern members of the church would have a hard time imagining members of the Quorum of the twelve Apostles kind of in open revolt and accusation against the president of the church. But that's what was happening, right?

John Turner [01:57:50] Yeah. So you have at least three apostles who are, I think, four by the by, later in the summer, who are at odds against Joseph, a member of the First Presidency, Oliver Cowdery, second member of the First Presidency, who's also increasingly disaffected. So things are seriously going off the rails.

John Dehlin [01:58:16] And when the Kirtland High Council tries to meet, your book says Joseph just didn't even bother to attend. Is that right?

John Turner [01:58:23] He did not attend. In my. You know, I'm sort of interpreting that as at that moment, he did not want a direct public confrontation with his enemies. Now also with his enemies or with his leadership. Right. I mean, it's. It's basically. Yeah, everything is falling apart

John Dehlin [01:58:47] with his fellow leaders of the church. Wait, enemies? Okay, sorry, I don't mean to laugh, but I mean, this. That Kurtland, I've heard it referred to as the largest apostasy that the Mormon Church ever faces.

John Turner [01:59:04] Yeah, no, I think that's true because it's such a high percentage of people really at the top who get disaffected.

John Dehlin [01:59:14] And these are Zion's camp participants, largely. Right. So, okay, so what does Joseph do in terms of ownership in the bank to try and solve, put this all behind him?

John Turner [01:59:25] Well, he just heads for the exits. So he transfers all of his own safety society shares to a couple of church members who are faithful to him. A lot of individuals withdraw their shares in the bank. Joseph and Signe Rigdon resign as officers in the bank, leaving it in the direction of Warren Parish, Joseph's former scribe, who's now an antagonist by this point. Joseph himself condemns the bank. He condemns the speculators, renegades and gamblers who are its remaining operators. The, you know that beautiful $1 banknote you showed earlier in the episode that would now have been worth pennies on the dollar. Although I will just point out, John, if you held on to these from the 1837 forward, they're now worth thousands.

John Dehlin [02:00:29] So, yeah, I was going to ask. Not because of the species though, right?

John Turner [02:00:33] I know. Good long term investment.

John Dehlin [02:00:36] Just because they're rare documents.

John Turner [02:00:38] Right, right. And yeah, they're, they're kind of quirky and fun.

John Dehlin [02:00:44] Do you own any more?

John Turner [02:00:46] No, One of my goals in life is to acquire Mormon money.

John Dehlin [02:00:52] Well, I'm sure there's some viewers or listeners that are going to be FedExing you something that they own.

John Turner [02:01:00] I'll pay pennies on the dollar.

John Dehlin [02:01:03] Okay. So yeah, Joseph and Signe abandoned it and then Joseph gets sick. Like that. Is that, I mean, that's legitimate illness. Like what is that? Psychosomatic distress?

John Turner [02:01:17] Who knows? I'm just, let's just presume he's legitimately sick. But I think it adds, you know, it really adds to the sense of crisis. So I have this detail. While Joseph is sick and possibly on his deathbed, people aren't sure. Parley Pratt is standing up at a Sunday morning meeting in the temple announcing that Brother Joseph Smith had committed great sins and that, you know, lots of people have departed from God. And apparently it's the first time since the temple has been completed that a Sunday meeting ends without the celebration of the Lord's Supper. So I mean, it's the level of rancor, and you alluded to it with the pistols and bowie knives at the outset. I mean, the level of rancor just reaches a fever pitch in the summer of 1837.

John Dehlin [02:02:20] But also you write that saints were fasting and praying for Joseph's well being. So in some ways, at least with some, he's able to turn this into him being the victim. Is that right?

John Turner [02:02:32] Well, I mean, let's just presume he actually is the victim of this virus.

John Dehlin [02:02:38] Oh, because he's sick.

John Turner [02:02:39] Right. So yeah, No, I mean, there are, of course, this is, this is not just everybody turning on Joseph. This is in a way, the church being divided over what has transpired. So of course Joseph still has some stalwart supporters.

John Dehlin [02:02:58] Talk about the confrontation between Fielding and Joseph because Joseph still had some fight in him. Right,

John Turner [02:03:04] Between Fielding and Joseph, let's see.

John Dehlin [02:03:07] You talk about a confrontation. You said. Oh, with Parley. You said Joseph remained formidable. When he met his critics face to face, he could often persuade or cajole them into contrition.

John Turner [02:03:22] Right, right. So, yeah, I think that actually is one interesting thing about Joseph's leadership during these months. And we've already alluded to the fact that he's sort of in and out of Kirtland. And especially when he's absent, you know, rancor very much grows, and people are expressing a lot of bitterness toward him. But I've noticed whether it's Parley Pratt or whether it's Thomas, Thomas Marsh and David Padden who hear that Joseph has committed adultery, when Joseph gets face to face with many of his detractors, he is able to persuade them either of his own righteousness or of their own errors. I think perhaps this speaks simply to the strength of his personality. A lot of people, when face to face with the prophet, backed down.

John Dehlin [02:04:27] Yeah, very, very. A powerful, charismatic presence. Right.

John Turner [02:04:32] That's my interpretation.

John Dehlin [02:04:34] Yeah. But ultimately Joseph flees, right? He flees the county.

John Turner [02:04:39] Yeah. I mean, again, he's in and out partly because the, you know, he is still under constant duress from creditors. And also, I think. I think he does just want to clear out. I don't think it. It helps the situation in Kirtland. But in late July, he and Signe Rigdon decide to visit branches of the church in Canada. And basically, anytime they go through Painesville, Ohio, there is a sheriff there who detains them for a failure to pay debts. And Joseph, in these instances would, you know, either try to settle the debt or post bail to pledge a later appearance in court. Apparently in one of these instances, there's a sheriff in Painesville by the name of Abel Kimball, no relation to Heber C. Kimball, as far as I know. Apparently, one time, Joseph is passing through Painesville and the sheriff leapt into his carriage, seized him in the reins, and basically handed him a writ with some sort of complaint. Joseph just hands over his watch on the spot to try to pay a debt. I mean, it's pretty crazy.

John Dehlin [02:06:08] It reminds me when Warren Jeffs was on the lam, the federal government was going after him. There were reports that he had just bags of money, and, you know, he was basically just riding around in some car in the back seat paying, Paying cash with everything until he finally was caught. Like, it gives those types of vibes of him, just, he's got money, he's on the run, and it's just a matter of time. Before he ends up in jail.

John Turner [02:06:37] Well, yeah. And then you alluded to this story at the outset, which. Which I rather like. So he's gone to Canada, and then he's coming back, and they're headed toward Kirtland. And apparently he and Sidney Rigdon disguised themselves because they don't want Sheriff Kimball to bother them as they pass through Painesville. Apparently, when they get four miles from Kirtland, they're arrested, they're brought back to Painesville. Joseph fears that, you know, he might be assaulted the way he was back in 1832. Sheriff Kimball keeps the two of them at a tavern owned by a member of the church who basically lets them slip out the kitchen door. And Joseph and Sidney flee into the woods, and they have enemies pursuing them, and they take refuge in a swamp and lay down next to an old log.

John Dehlin [02:07:49] Log, Right, A log.

John Turner [02:07:51] A log. And I like this detail that Joseph tells Sydney to try to breathe more quietly if he doesn't want to be caught. And I have to think Joseph can say that with a bit of a chuckle or a smile at least. And their pursuers don't find them, and they basically go through cornfields for a while. They get back to Kirtland shortly before dawn. And then this is classic Joseph Smith. I mean, whether. Whether you love Joseph Smith or hate Joseph Smith, he has some impressive moments of bravado. So after all this, it happens to be Sunday, and he goes to the temple and he speaks, apparently in a very powerful manner. And the congregation is. Is sort of impressed. Like, this guy is kind of hard to keep down.

John Dehlin [02:08:55] Yeah, yeah, it is. It is fascinating. And it's. It's gotta be the type of stuff that makes people like you and others just so interested. We already mentioned at the beginning of this episode that things get so out of hand back in Kirtland that in the Kirtland temple, swords are drawn, guns are drawn, people are jumping out of windows, there are bowie knives, there's a melee. Any. Any report of injury or death occurring in the temple?

John Turner [02:09:25] So that's a great question. I think some reports of minor injuries,

John Dehlin [02:09:29] but no stabbings or shootings.

John Turner [02:09:32] No stabbings or shootings. You know, it seems like people are basically ready to come to blows with each other, but don't quite. I do think By September of 1837, Joseph is starting to recognize that it might not be tenable for him to stay in Kirtland. You know, his. His property's clearly at risk. He has all of these extensive debts. He doesn't seem to be able to go anywhere without getting arrested. It's going to make it kind of impossible to conduct church business. And so I don't think it's a coincidence that in the fall of 1837, Joseph decides to visit Missouri. So he takes this trip to Missouri.

John Dehlin [02:10:31] Can I just say I mentioned him being in a disguise before it does note in your book that Sidney and Joseph disguised themselves and they were in the cup. They're. They were in the company of Samson Avard, wasn't he? Doesn't he end up being one of the council of 50?

John Turner [02:10:53] No. He is involved with the day nights.

John Dehlin [02:10:56] Oh, the day nights, that's right.

John Turner [02:10:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:10:58] So, okay, so they were. They were in disguises at one point.

John Turner [02:11:02] Yeah. I don't. I don't know what the disguises were. You know, it's a. It's a reference. I think it's a reference from a letter, either Violet Kimball or Mary Fielding, but I'm. I'm not 100 sure.

John Dehlin [02:11:18] Okay.

John Turner [02:11:19] Apparently they're not very good disguises because they're spotted.

John Dehlin [02:11:24] Okay. And then it's also worth noting, even though last episode we talked about Fanny Auger, that all of this scandal is primarily the Kirtland Safety Society imploding. But there is the layer of some of Joseph's colleagues and leaders knowing about the Fanny Auger adulterous affair and being upset about that as well. Correct?

John Turner [02:11:49] Correct. Right. So it seems that Thomas Marsh and David Padden, they're discussing this with Warren Parrish and Oliver Cowdery. Now, you know, it's possible. I'm just going to speculate. If it hadn't been for the Kirtland bank, it may well be that the Fanny Alger affair or rumor may have been something that Joseph could easily have overcome. But I think you have the circumstance in which a large number of people, including high ranking leaders of the church, are actively questioning Joseph's leadership. And you'd have to think that that provides a lot of oxygen for the Fanny Alger rumors.

John Dehlin [02:12:41] And again, Joseph denied that he had an affair with Fannie. He made sure she was run out of the state, and he bullied anyone that made that claim to him. So he was deceiving people. He was covering it up and denying that affair. Is that unfair to say?

John Turner [02:13:02] Well, Joseph absolutely denies that he's committed adultery with Fanny Alger. I mean, that's absolutely true. And there's this one report that this is Brigham Young's recollection that when David Patton challenges Joseph on the issue, Joseph slapped him in the face and kicked him out of the yard. So, yeah, Joseph, Joseph is not interested in being challenged on this point.

John Dehlin [02:13:37] And Julia's trying to nuance it and say that he denied that it was an affair, which, what implies that maybe he thought it was polygamous and that God was okay with it.

John Turner [02:13:49] That's not my interpretation because I simply don't think. I mean, yes, it's possible that Joseph simply thought that God had sanctioned some sort of intimate relationship with Fanny Alger. I don't think Joseph has developed his theology of sealing yet. So I, I would read it simply as Joseph denying intimacy with Fanny Alger.

John Dehlin [02:14:18] Okay. Okay. So you mentioned that Joseph just decides he comes back into town on December 10, but at some point he realizes he's just gotta flee the state. Right?

Conviction, Excommunications, and Departure from Kirtland

John Turner [02:14:35] Yeah. So what happens is while he's in Missouri, he is tried and convicted in absentia, along with Sidney Rigdon, of violating the 1816 law against unchartered banking. And by the way, the mechanics of this are actually pretty interesting. The statute, the law mandated a thousand dollar fine, half of it going to the state and half of it going to the individual who brought the complaint, Grandison Newell, who'd orchestrated the run on the bank, also orchestrated the lawsuit. So he can then pursue legal actions to collect the debt. And what happens is he basically gets the sheriff. I think again is Sheriff Abel Kimball, who is Joseph's least favorite sheriff ever. I think he's basically going to attach all of Joseph's property and eventually he would take his house in order to pay this debt. So once Joseph is facing that $500 fine, besides the ecclesiastical chaos, it's just untenable for Joseph to stay, at least without individuals coming forward to help him financially.

John Dehlin [02:16:10] And does that, does that earn Joseph the label of a convicted criminal then or not? Is that too harsh or is that just descriptive?

John Turner [02:16:19] I think that's just descriptive.

John Dehlin [02:16:21] Okay, so he, by this point, he is a convicted criminal and he flees the state to avoid punishment. Well, correct.

John Turner [02:16:31] So sort of. I mean, his property is attached in order to pay the fine. It's a fine. And so what happens is the sheriff in early January, I think you can see this in a newspaper, basically announces a fire sale. Joseph's assets are sold in order to pay his debts, including furniture, the church's printing press. He also seizes and sells Joseph's Egyptian materials, including the mummies and papyri. Now apparently some church members either bought them on Joseph's behalf or reacquired them. So Joseph's able to retain possession of the papyri and mummies. Joseph had tried to shield certain things from being sold, like the Kirtland temple. But according to Violet Kimball, the prophet is basically stripped of everything, even food and clothing. So it was only a matter matter of time before the sheriff came and sold Joseph's land and house. And so Joseph dictates a final revelation in Kirtland. And Jesus puts it pretty clear, get out of this place or there shall be no safety for you. So Joseph's property was in danger. It's probably fair to say that on some level, his life might have been in danger, given the level of ecclesiastical rancor. And so Joseph flees on horseback, I think, at night, and Emma and the family soon join him, and they begin a journey west to Missouri.

John Dehlin [02:18:38] Yeah, so not a good outcome. And as far as the. The. The folks that remain, the apostles and church, well, this ru. Does this ruin for good Joseph's relationship with Oliver Cowdery?

John Turner [02:18:56] Pretty much. So basically, what Joseph does in December when he gets back to Kirtland is he publicly states at a meeting that Cowdery has confessed to lying about him and Cowdery. Then he's irate by that, and he says, unless. Basically, unless you take it back, Joseph, we are parted. Or something like that. And, you know, Joseph doesn't take it back. So, yes, they never overcome their breach after this.

John Dehlin [02:19:32] And again, from Joseph's perspective, how. How is Oliver the bad guy?

John Turner [02:19:38] Well, from Joseph's perspective, or at least what Joseph maintains is that Oliver Cowdery is falsely accusing him of adultery.

John Dehlin [02:19:48] But also, I guess Oliver wasn't happy about the bank, right?

John Turner [02:19:53] I don't think Oliver was. I'm sure he wasn't happy about the bank. I will say, as far as I know, their breach was mostly about Fanny. Fanny Alger, the bank.

John Dehlin [02:20:07] I kind of have a picture of Oliver grinning the whole time this bank thing's going down, you know, just sort of saying, yeah, like, that's who. That's who we have as a leader. Did. Did it affect Joseph's relationship with Sidney? Because Sidney was basically Joseph's partner in the. In the failed bank, right?

John Turner [02:20:27] Yeah. No, it doesn't affect Joseph's relationship with Sydney. So, you know, once. And we'll. We'll see in the next episode when, you know, a lot of these problems follow Joseph to Missouri. Joseph gets away from his Kirtland creditors, but, you know, problems of dissent within the church persist. Sidney Rigdon is loyal. He resolutely stands with Joseph against his critics in 1838.

John Dehlin [02:21:01] What about the Whitmers? Did this affect his relationship with the Whitmers. And. And I read at the top of page 202 that there were 30 excommunications. Who's getting excommunicated and why?

John Turner [02:21:15] So, yeah, no, a lot of people. So the Whitmers aren't excommunicated yet, but David Whitmer and John Whitmer and Frederick G. Williams, they are at odds with Joseph by the fall of 1837. Also Apostles Luke Johnson and John Boynton, Martin Harris and Warren Parish. Also apparently the 30 excommunicated individuals include Harris. I think that's not absolutely clear whether he's formally excommunicated or not. I don't know. I'd have to look up the list. A fair number of the high profile individuals are actually excommunicated the following spring.

John Dehlin [02:22:14] But these are apostles and top leaders of the church, right?

John Turner [02:22:17] Oh, yeah. No, this is absolute serious sort of ecclesiastical civil war by the second half of 1837.

John Dehlin [02:22:30] And if you had to kind of summarize why so many, why Joseph and whoever is still loyal to him are excommunicating dozens of top church leaders, it is because.

John Turner [02:22:45] Well, I think it's because through the debacle of the Kirtland Bank, a large number of church members conclude that Joseph is a fallen prophet. And like I said before, I think one reason for that is people had. Well, I have to think this through as I say it. I mean, I think there are quite a few times where we've seen Joseph stake his prophetic authority on a particular outcome and it doesn't always come to pass. And in this case, Joseph says that God has told him that all will be well with the bank. And so people believe him and they stake some of their money and economic fortunes on. On the Kirtland Bank. Now, when we're talking about something like Jackson county or the failure of Zion's bank. Excuse me, Zion's March, Not Zion's bank, that's a different bank. It was easy for the Saints not to blame Joseph because at the end of the day, it was anti Mormons in Jackson county who were responsible for the persecution and expulsion of the Saints in this instance. Certainly enemies have something to do with it, but it's really easy for people to blame Joseph and other church leaders for this debacle. There's not really anywhere else for Joseph to point the finger. Now he does do that to some extent. He accuses Warren Parish and maybe Frederick G. Williams of stealing bank deposits. But as far as Joseph's opponents in Kirtland are concerned, this is on Joseph Smith. It's not on anybody else.

John Dehlin [02:24:59] Yeah. If ever there were credible grounds for someone being denounced as a false prophet, you would. I mean, one might think the Kirtland Safety Society anti banking scandal would qualify.

John Turner [02:25:18] Absolutely. So according to Apostle Thomas Marsh, who's still loyal at this point, maybe wavering.

John Dehlin [02:25:24] And he's the milk strippings guy, right, that the church used to claim he apostatized for being mad over not getting enough milk or something.

John Turner [02:25:33] Correct. Which I think is not true, but we'll talk about him next episode. According to Marsh, the dissenters, they claim themselves to be the old standard and called themselves the Church of Christ. They saw Joseph as either a fallen prophet or a liar from the beginning, whom God had nevertheless used to bring forth the Book of Mormon and the earlier revelations. You actually get a similar response of some dissenters in Nauvoo. You know, they see Joseph as a fallen prophet, but you know, they have, you know, they converted to this church for a reason and they don't want to totally disavow that.

John Dehlin [02:26:13] Yeah. The NAVA Expositor with William Law seems to make similar charges later. Really quickly, I seem to recall Grant Palmer in his book An Insider's View of Mormon Origins, saying that it was during this whole Kirland bank fiasco that Martin Harris maybe introduced again, or for the first time, the idea that he didn't see the plates with his physical eyes, but instead saw them with his spiritual eyes. Does that ring a bell? Was it tied to all of this? And if so, why would Martin be talking about physicalized versus spiritualized in the gold plates at this particular moment in time?

John Turner [02:26:54] Yeah, so, great question. I think that quote, you know, about Harris making that comment, I think it's from either 1837 or 1838. I don't remember the exact source off the top of my head. I do think, though, yeah, it's probably not coincidental. Harris is among those who have lost faith in Joseph's leadership by the end of the year. So it stands to reason he'd be a little bit more critical or self critical of some of his earlier experiences. He's not permanently disaffected. A few years later, Parley Pratt reported that Harris was still in the church. So he may not have been formally excommunicated, or he may have been cut off and then regained his fellowship or still had some faith in the Church.

John Dehlin [02:27:59] Yeah, okay. I mean, I could imagine people saying, well, Joseph can't have always been a false prophet because you saw those gold plates in the angel Martin and Then Martin could say, well, I saw him with my spiritual eyes. I mean, that's how I'm constructing a possible dialogue. But I know I'm. That's just my own construction, but I'm just trying to figure out what the context might have been.

John Turner [02:28:23] Yeah, I mean, it's quite possible that because of these reversals of fortune, Harris is hedging his bets a little bit more by this point.

John Dehlin [02:28:33] And then you said there was an actual fire. Was the Kirtland temple on fire?

John Turner [02:28:37] Not the Kirtland Temple, the Kirtland Printing office. So that is among the properties that are sold to settle Joseph's debt. And. Soon after it is sold, it burns down in the middle of the night, I think, the day after it's sold. And it does scorch the exterior of the temple, but the temple doesn't burn, and it's understood to be arson. And suspicion falls on a few men who were sympathetic to Joseph. Oliver Cowdery's brother actually dismisses the charge. He's the justice of the peace. But it seems that Joseph supporters are upset that the printing office has been sold, and so they burn it down. I don't think definitively certain, but seems possible.

John Dehlin [02:29:44] It seems sad that. Or outrageous that so many people lost so much money in this bank. There's a little bit of collateral offered to try and offset the losses, and so Joseph supporters want to destroy what little collateral is even available to offset the losses. That seems just downright dirty.

John Turner [02:30:04] Yeah. I mean, if that's the case. Yeah, I think it. I think it was.

John Dehlin [02:30:11] And then Emma's pregnant. To put all to. To add on top of all of that, apparently Emma's pregnant.

John Turner [02:30:18] Yeah. This is not the first time she's moving in difficult circumstances. So I think if. If you recall, when they moved to Kirtland initially, I think she was getting toward the end of an earlier pregnancy, and now she's in the second trimester of another pregnancy. And actually they have a pretty arduous wintertime journey to Missouri ahead of them.

John Dehlin [02:30:54] Yeah, well, I guess in an ideal world, Joseph could have just stood up and instead of excommunicating dozens of his followers fleeing justice, in an ideal world, he would have said, hey, I shouldn't have started that bank. I'm really sorry that so many people lost their money. You know, you're right. You know, follow fellow apostles and Book of Mormon witnesses and church members. I misled you. I'm sorry. I should have done this all. I'll submit myself to justice and do my best to spend the rest of my days and years making this right for all the people that I'm hurt. But Joseph kind of sets a precedent here for how the church handles harm and scandal that it's involved with. Is that fair to say So?

John Turner [02:31:54] I actually like your. I really like the first half of your comment.

John Dehlin [02:32:00] Nothing.

John Turner [02:32:00] I dislike the second half. I just haven't thought about it as much. You know, I think this is just sort of. It's not like I always live this out perfectly, but in general, in life, if you make a bad mistake, I do think the best recourse. I don't mean that it's always the best recourse politically or, you know, in some other way, but I think the best recourse is to say, yep, I completely messed up. Maybe explain this is why I did it. My intentions were good. I thought this would benefit. Benefit of. Benefit us. We can recover from this. Right? If we all stick together. The fact that this bank failed. This doesn't have to be the end. You know, let's. Let's find other ways. It'll be hard, but let's pay off our debts and. And we can hang in there with each other. I think in this case, as things unraveled, you know, Joseph didn't find. Didn't find a way to take responsibility for at least his part in it and therefore could never stem the bleeding. And the only recourse that he eventually found was to clear out and start over in Missouri. And I do think. I do think this is, you know, just. It's an ex. It's an example of poor leadership on. On Joseph's. On Joseph's part. And, you know, the irony is this is right on the heels of one of Joseph's most signal successes in Kirtland, and then it all just falls apart within a year.

John Dehlin [02:33:47] Yeah. And it, you know, when Dallin H. Oaks, the current president of the church, made that statement that the. That the church neither offers nor seeks apologies, in some sense, he's kind of just describing the precedent that Joseph said. Joseph didn't really seem to apologize, at least publicly, for the trouble he got himself and others into. And so I think if the church leaders, if the LDS Church has that position today, that it just doesn't apologize. It kind of is just doing, in essence, what Joseph did. Because if ever there were a point where Joseph and the church could have apologized, it would have been 1837 Kirtland. Correct?

John Turner [02:34:30] I think so. I don't know if it's the example that most needed an apology, but, yeah, I Mean, and I think on a human level, for, you know, Joseph. Joseph had some real strengths in the sense of when he failed or encountered failure, he was super resilient. You know, he. He would come back stronger. But he wasn't great at humbling himself and saying, you know, I messed this up. And. And, you know, he could even have said, I think, you know, the Lord wanted us to do this. And, you know, it turned out it was just impossible circumstances. Our enemies had it in for us. I'm sorry. I know this has cost some of you a lot of money, and I think. I think a lot of people would have been forgiving of that, but I think Joseph's choice instead was he wanted to blame everybody but himself for the bank's collapse. And I think people understood that on some level, a lot of this was on him.

John Dehlin [02:35:51] Yeah. And the thing that always makes me most sad is when people that are hurt are the ones that are punished or blamed. And, you know, that's the collateral damage. But then again, like, if we're just looking at a macro level, look at where we are in the book. So, like, we're. We're. We're completing chapter 18. You know, Joseph. Joseph begins his Kirtland time. What, 1831. Is that right? When Joseph first comes to Kirtland? Like, that's six or seven years where he starts out coming into Kirtland with just, what, hundreds of members? And where does this leave Joseph in terms of his prophetic mantle, his prophetic power? Because even though Joseph leaves Kirtland in scandal and in what would be seen as failure, this is not by any means the end of Joseph. And if you were to count his power and his following, it's quite significant by 1837, right?

Looking Ahead to Missouri and Closing Reflections

John Turner [02:36:55] Well, it is. And I think we have not seen

John Dehlin [02:36:59] the last of Joseph.

John Turner [02:37:00] Oh, no, no, don't worry. Don't worry, dear listeners. We have quite a few chapters to go, and, you know, the most exciting chapters, I think, are yet to come. I think for Joseph, practically speaking, his leadership in Kirtland is just, you know, it just doesn't function anymore. By the end of 1837, he is able to regroup in Missouri, but problems from Kirtland follow him. In part because of these unresolved conflicts with people like Oliver Cowdery, David and John Whitmer. Joseph isn't able to really, I would say, fully regroup until he establishes Nauvoo.

John Dehlin [02:37:53] Yeah. And Mark, you would include Martin Harris in that list as well, right?

John Turner [02:37:58] Well, Harris is no longer. He's not really in Joseph's orbit at all after this. So this probably is an unresolved conflict, but it's not an active one.

John Dehlin [02:38:11] Yeah. All right, John Turner. Well, what a. What? This could be its own movie, right? Just the Kirtland, you know, Safety Society bank fiasco. Someday they're gonna either create a movie or a multi series, a multi season series on all of this history because it's fascinating. So thanks for bringing it to life for us, John Turner.

John Turner [02:38:37] You are welcome, John Delenn. Crazy stuff.

John Dehlin [02:38:41] So what do we have to look forward to in our next episode, Missouri.

John Turner [02:38:46] We are going to have plenty to talk about next week.

John Dehlin [02:38:50] You're titling it east of Eden. That's got Steinbeck references. That's my favorite Steinbeck book.

John Turner [02:38:56] Excellent.

John Dehlin [02:38:57] All right. Well, John Turner, thanks so much for your generosity today. We really appreciate your book and all you do. Again, the book is Joseph the Rise and Fall of an American Prophet by John Turner. Please buy it. It's a great Christmas gift. Buy it for you. Buy it for your friends and family. I think this book. Buy it for believers. Do you get good feedback from believers about this book, John Turner,

John Turner [02:39:25] or do

John Dehlin [02:39:26] you even hear from believers about this book?

John Turner [02:39:30] I have gotten quite a few emails from active Latter Day Saints who have enjoyed the biography. I mean, I like to think, and you often say that I give Joseph a fair shake. Now, not everybody reading the book agrees with that. I like to hear from people, honestly, whether they agree with my interpretations or not. I appreciate people reading and engaging. I think, you know, we have a lot of, we have a lot of evidence for Joseph Smith's life, but we have plenty of things that are open to interpretation and debate, which I always welcome.

John Dehlin [02:40:15] All right. Well, we really appreciate it. We're 21 episodes in and I imagine we've got at least 10. How many more to go? At least 10 or 20 more to go. I don't know.

John Turner [02:40:29] Well, we'll keep rolling along. I think we've got another 10 or 12 chapters.

John Dehlin [02:40:33] Okay. So at least another. Another 12. But thank you for your generosity. For those who have donated. We couldn't do this without you. We are, we are paying John Turner not nearly what he deserves. So if you want to donate financially, half of all donations are going to go to John. And so if you want to thank him for his work, you, you can go to donorbox.org Joseph Smith become a donor to this series. Thanks to everyone who donates to this series and also to Mormon stories. We couldn't do it without you. All right, John Turner you take care and we'll see you next time.

John Turner [02:41:08] Thanks. See you soon and thanks for joining

John Dehlin [02:41:10] Sarah Mormon Stories everybody. Give us your feedback, email us, comment on these episodes. We really love your feedback and we look forward to seeing you again next time. Take care, everybody.