Welcome and Introduction to Scientology

John Dehlin [00:00:00] What's it like to be born into Scientology? Hi, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is September 10, 2025, and today we have in studio two people who, in effect, were born into Scientology. And not only that, they worked closely with David Miscavige and Shelley Miscavige and worked at the highest levels of of Scientology for many years, eventually escaped, and since then have become advocates for helping others escape Scientology and heal and grow afterwards. They've also been featured all over the place in lots of different venues. But today we have joining us on Mormon Stories podcast, Claire Headley. Hey, Claire.

Claire Headley [00:00:47] Hello. Thank you so much for having us.

John Dehlin [00:00:50] Yeah, so glad to have you. And we also have Mark Headley. Hey, Mark.

Marc Headley [00:00:53] Thanks for having us.

John Dehlin [00:00:55] And y' all are co hosts of the YouTube channel blown for Good. Is that right?

Marc Headley [00:01:00] That's correct.

John Dehlin [00:01:01] And you also have a book, Mark, called Blown for Good as well.

Marc Headley [00:01:06] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:01:07] And y' all have. And I think also, Claire, you head what used to be called the Aftermath Foundation, Is that right?

Claire Headley [00:01:14] That's correct. I serve as volunteer board president for the now Michael J. Rinder Aftermath Foundation. Mark and I have both been on the board since the Foundation's inception in December 2017. And, yeah, we're very proud of the work that we do through the foundation to help people get out of Scientology and start new lives.

John Dehlin [00:01:35] Yeah. Yeah. Well, we're really, really glad to have you. And also, if all that weren't amazing enough, we have Margi here as co host. Hey, Margi.

Claire Headley [00:01:45] Hi there.

John Dehlin [00:01:46] Thanks for coming. Yeah, so just a tiny bit of background info for those of you who have been following Mormon stories for a lot of years. We have covered Scientology a bit in the past. There was this time where we had Chris Shelton, the YouTuber Chris Shelton, on many, many hours, he gave an entire, you know, background on the history of L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology. We're going to cover that a little bit today, but we're not going to go into the depth that I did with Chris.

John Dehlin [00:02:17] That was back in the zoom days of Mormon Stories. So the video quality wasn't that great. The audio quality wasn't that great, but I think the content of it still very much holds up. So we'll have. We'll make sure that Brooklyn includes that in the show notes because I think that's some really. That y' all will find valuable as background. We also have had Mike Rinder on Mormon Stories, if my memory is correct. Yep.

Claire Headley [00:02:44] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:02:44] And the late Mike Rinder, he is he passed away in the past year. Is that right?

Claire Headley [00:02:50] January 5th of this year.

John Dehlin [00:02:51] Yeah. So, you know, our hearts go out to Mike's family. And he'll always be a legend.

Claire Headley [00:03:01] Yes, completely.

John Dehlin [00:03:02] And of course, Mark and Leah Remini were kind of co. Led, not just their podcast, but also they had the TV series.

Marc Headley [00:03:15] Was it Leah Remini in the Aftermath?

Claire Headley [00:03:18] Leah Remini, Scientology in the Aftermath, which is what that show was the reason for the formation of the now Michael J. Rinder Aftermath foundation because of the huge outpouring of support and outrage that was really generated on a broad public basis through that show.

John Dehlin [00:03:40] And then I can't help but, you know, not mention. I can't help but mention the Going Clear documentary, because when I was trying to process my Mormon life, Going Clear was a really important part of that as well. I'm trying to remember. We all involved in that.

Marc Headley [00:03:57] We worked with Lawrence Wright when he was writing the book, and we're covered in the book. And then when they did. When Alex did the film version of the book, we contributed, but we're not really featured in the documentary. I think there's one or two documents that they show in the documentary, and we're listed in the documents. But it's funny that you say that, because when that film came out, Scientology did a whole bunch of hit pieces on everybody who they thought would be in the film. And so we had hit pieces done on us. But when the film came out, we weren't even in. We're like, we're just catching shrapnel here.

Claire Headley [00:04:40] They did a Freedom magazine, which is their hit piece that their magazine that really goes to town on trying to destroy anyone who speaks out against Scientology for that. It was specifically for that Going Clear show. And we were on the COVID and we were like, hey, we weren't even in it. Yes, we were absolutely used extensively to corroborate the research and all of that. And our lawsuit was referenced in that. In Going Clear.

John Dehlin [00:05:10] Yeah. And we should mention your lawsuit as well. So y' all have been involved probably in more than one lawsuit or.

Marc Headley [00:05:17] No, just one. But it went the. It was ultimately. It was. We lost it. We ended it, ended up going up on an appeal. And in the decision, the judge said, if you had used different causes of action, you might have fared very differently. And because the FBI was invest. Investigating Scientology for human trafficking, then the lawyers sort of went all in on human trafficking when they probably should have gone in on forced imprisonment or assault and battery or forced abortion. Forced abortion. There was other causes of action, which the same law firm did have other people that went forward with those causes of actions, and those cases were ultimately settled when they were about to go to trial, Scientology ended up up getting out the checkbook.

John Dehlin [00:06:09] So y' all sued Scientology for.

Marc Headley [00:06:13] For human trafficking and labor law and

Claire Headley [00:06:17] labor law violations, forced abortion, and a number of other causes. And yes, as Mark mentioned, the judge in the final ruling, because this went on over four years, said, had we pursued false imprisonment, assault and battery, etc, then we might have come out differently. But it is what it is. That is a tough.

Marc Headley [00:06:40] Yeah. And it. It also. Scientology is notoriously litigious. And they have. I. I usually ask people, they say, well, why. Why don't people sue them and why don't they do? Well, Scientology has, let's say, three or four billion dollars. How much would you spend if you had that much money? How much would you spend to keep it? Would you spend a billion? Sure. You spend a billion to keep another.

John Dehlin [00:07:08] We get that. Yeah, we get that.

Marc Headley [00:07:11] So. And they don't. They. They love. They, they. They have decades and decades of experience in that arena.

John Dehlin [00:07:18] Yeah.

Marc Headley [00:07:19] And they use lawfare to their advantage all the time.

John Dehlin [00:07:23] We'll get into that for sure.

Marc Headley [00:07:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:25] Yeah. And Brooklyn's telling me I may have said Mark Rinder instead of Mike Rinder. I don't know if that's true.

Claire Headley [00:07:30] But you did. Okay. It's okay.

John Dehlin [00:07:32] Okay. It's Mike Rinder, not Mark. It's Mark Headley.

Claire Headley [00:07:35] It was after. It was when you were talking about the show and you just said Mark and Leah instead of Mike and Leah.

John Dehlin [00:07:40] That's all.

Marc Headley [00:07:42] Mike and Marx are often interchangeable. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:46] So the way we're gonna do today's sort of interview, we're gonna do two parts. We're gonna. Part one is going to be Claire and Marx sort of being born into Scientology up through the point where they start to really question it. And that will be part one of this series. And then we're going to come back for part two, which is going to be what caused them to start questioning it and how they escaped and then what their life has been since. So it's going to be traditional Mormon stories, long form, go grab yourself a latte or whatever, a beverage of your choice and settle in. Because Scientology might even out cult Mormonism, I think. I think there aren't many organizations these days that out cult Mormonism, but I think Scientology does. It's for its size, let's say billion dollar, you know, religions. I think Scientology probably takes the cake. So.

Claire Headley [00:08:46] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:08:47] Let's do it. Should we buckle in?

Claire Headley [00:08:49] Yes, let's do this.

John Dehlin [00:08:50] All right. Okay. So, Claire, I thought since you were literally born in to Scientology, I thought it would make sense for you to start. And what we do is we kind of COVID a certain portion, and then I'll switch to Mark and then switch back kind of childhood, childhood, adolescence, adolescence, and then early adulthood, early adulthood, and we'll just kind of go from there. Is that okay?

Claire Headley [00:09:14] Sounds great.

Claire Headley's Early Life in Scientology

John Dehlin [00:09:15] All right. So, Claire Headley, where does your Scientology story begin?

Claire Headley [00:09:20] Yes, so my mother got into Scientology when she was a teenager. She had been raised Roman Catholic. My grandparents immigrated to England from Ireland after World War II. And so my mom's. All her siblings were born in Manchester, England, and that's where I was born. My mother was, you know, it was mid-70s, hippie, had gotten into some drug use, had, you know, was going astray, and her older brother got into Scientology and got her in. She read Dianetics when she was pregnant with me, as that was a book

John Dehlin [00:10:00] by L. Ron Hubbard.

Claire Headley [00:10:01] Yes, Dianetics, the Modern Science of Mental Health by L. Ron Hubbard is. It's referred to as book one in Scientology as, you know, a primary text and a very foundational piece of the body of knowledge of both Dianetics and Scientology.

John Dehlin [00:10:20] Actually, let's do like a three or four or five minute background on Scientology before we totally jump in. Is that okay?

Claire Headley [00:10:28] Sure, sure. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:30] How did L. Ron Hubbard go from, like, science fiction author to religion founder? You know, let's just do a quick.

Claire Headley [00:10:38] Yeah, I. I mean, my answer to that is he. He was exceptionally intelligent and psychopathic in seeing and seizing an opportunity. The best ground or the best reference to learn the truth of L. Ron Hubbard's life is Barefaced Messiah by Russell Miller. We always recommend that book. It's excellent. It's really the only true biography on who L. Ron Hubbard was. And of course, you know, for me being born into it, I just knew what the only things I was ever told. But yes, he. L. Ron Hubbard was a science fiction writer. There are many references to that. In the 50s, he saw an opportunity to make a lot of money by creating a religion.

Claire Headley [00:11:28] And so he wrote Dianetics, the Modern Science of Mental Health that was released May 9, 1950. And then from there, it expanded into a very elaborate structure designed to lure people in, get a lot of money from them, keep them very isolated, get their whole families in, get them. You know, it's a very structured and restraining environment that. That Scientology has created that exists to this day. That's how I would sum it up.

Marc Headley [00:12:01] Yeah. In Scientology, they paint this picture of L. Ron Hubbard like he was a. He traveled. His father was in the military, so he traveled as a young child, and he went to all these exotic countries. And he. You know, he.

Marc Headley [00:12:16] They say that he was the youngest blood brother of a certain Indian tribe, and they have all these, like, this folklore that they talk about. Hubb. And they reference his science fiction writing years as. That's what he did to finance his research.

Marc Headley [00:12:37] And so he did that. But the true reason for him doing that was so that he could do this research, so that he could. The evolution of Dianetics could sort of come about. And then when you read any of the Russell Miller book or any of these books, the history, the actual history of Elrond Hubbard, they'll say the Indian tribe that he said he was a blood brother of. They don't do that in that. Like, these are all basically just propaganda pieces that the church has put together to. To bolster this image. And even old photographs of him with his prior wives. They photoshopped the wives out of these pictures because they don't want him to look like, oh, he had multiple wives.

John Dehlin [00:13:19] And so he was a polygamist.

Marc Headley [00:13:21] He. It's funny because he was interviewed. He was on his third wife, and he was asked, well, what about your second wife? And he said, I never had a second wife. And you're like, but you're on your third wife. How did you skip the second and the third? And so it's very funny when he gets caught out when he's asked questions.

John Dehlin [00:13:45] So, like the Mormon Church, I guess, number one, the church has obscured and hidden and whitewashed its founding prophets.

Claire Headley [00:13:58] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:13:58] And like the Mormon Church, Joseph Smith was a polygamist. So there are a couple parallels there.

The Sea Organization and L. Ron Hubbard's Origins

Claire Headley [00:14:04] There is another important piece that's, I think, relevant for our stories and that's important to talk about, which is that in the late 60s is when L. Ron Hubbard created what's referred to as the SEA organization. Sea as in ocean?

Claire Headley [00:14:19] Yes. And that is where that's relevant for two reasons. Number one, that's when the billion year contract became something that Scientology members were required to sign to commit themselves, allegedly lifetime after lifetime after lifetime in service of L. Ron Hubbard and the goals of Scientology.

Claire Headley [00:14:43] And also relevant to that is that the reason it was created at SEA is because L. Ron Hubbard was already by then, an incred paranoid madman who was convinced that government agencies and anyone of any importance was dead set on destroying and stopping him from expanding Scientology. So there's always this element of, you know, hiding and keeping things not in plain view that has been baked into Scientology because of L. Ron Hubbard for many, many years.

Marc Headley [00:15:18] Yeah, he basically got chased out of America. He was in England. Got chased out of England, was in South Africa. Got chased out of South Africa.

Claire Headley [00:15:26] This is uncanny.

Marc Headley [00:15:28] And so the sea organization was a necessity because it was the only place that they. In international waters, was the only place they weren't gonna get chased down.

Claire Headley [00:15:38] Interesting.

John Dehlin [00:15:41] So, I mean. Interesting. So both Joseph Smith and L. Ron Hubbard were fiction writers. Cause the Book of Mormon, I think we all agree now, is fiction. Both were polygamists.

Marc Headley [00:15:54] When you say polygamist, he had two wives at the same time, but they weren't together. Yeah, no, I just want to. I just want to make that distinction. They had overlap, but they weren't. He wasn't with the two women at the same time.

John Dehlin [00:16:08] Same. I mean. I mean, what you. What do you mean? Not, like, living together?

Marc Headley [00:16:14] Yeah, they weren't together. He had just basic. He basically.

John Dehlin [00:16:18] Yeah.

Marc Headley [00:16:19] Pretended the second wife didn't exist and then just remarried kind of thing.

John Dehlin [00:16:23] No, but I mean, still, both fiction writers, both polygamists, both became paranoid by the end of their lives. Both led organizations that were driven out of city after city after city after city. So many parallels. So really quickly, as far as special powers go. Joseph Smith was able to gain a reputation by creating the perception that he had special powers, that he could see treasure, that he could look into a stone and be a treasure digger. I didn't even expect y' all would have a reaction to that.

Marc Headley [00:17:00] L. Ron Hubbard wrote a book called Mission Into Time, where he took a bunch of new Sea Org members, these people that have signed the billion year contract, and they went off into a remote island somewhere to go look for treasure that he had buried in a past life, and he.

John Dehlin [00:17:21] Whoa.

Marc Headley [00:17:22] And he knew the location of it.

John Dehlin [00:17:24] So both were treasure diggers.

Marc Headley [00:17:25] Treasure diggers of treasures that they buried in another life. But when you said the special powers thing, there is this thing in Scientology, and this also applies to David Miscavige, but it did originally apply to L. Ron Hubbard, where Sea Org members and Scientologists would meet or have a conversation with L. Ron Hubbard, or, in the case of the current people, David Miscavige, and he would know things that there's no way he could know, or he would come into an office, and he'd be talking to you, and then he'd reach into a drawer, and there'd be the one thing that shouldn't Be in that drawer. Would be in the drawer. And so there were very similar ideas that they do have some extra ability or superior intelligence that they're able to spot and know things, but there's no way how could they know that? So there. There absolutely was that as well.

Scientology Beliefs, Powers, and Blame Reversal

John Dehlin [00:18:27] Interesting.

Claire Headley [00:18:28] But I would say too, it's important to note. So in Scientology, you have upper levels, you have the bridge to total freedom. And so you come in, you're at the bottom of the bridge, and you move up. Both in TR Counseling. And then they have the upper levels referred to as the OT levels, or operating thetan. Thetan is Scientology's word, an equivalent for soul.

Claire Headley [00:18:51] So when you reach the upper levels, it's confidential. And there are. It's alleged that you will get special powers. However, it's also completely forbidden to discuss, to ever demonstrate those special powers to another person because it would be out reality.

Claire Headley [00:19:12] It would create upset and division. So you're not allowed to show the special powers and you're not allowed to compare notes. Like you're not allowed to talk about the materials on the level. So for example, I had gotten up to OT level 5.

Claire Headley [00:19:29] Mark, not so much. Not so much. And so we never talked about it until after we left of what was on the upper levels. And the point being too, in retrospect, of course, it's one of the most elaborate scenarios of the Emperor's New Clothes that you could imagine is the Scientology reality. Because there are no special powers.

John Dehlin [00:19:55] Well, that's another parallel because Joseph Smith implemented a super secret temple ceremony that only certain people could go to. And then you had to swear that you'd rather be killed than ever divulge what you learned in the super secret temple ceremony. So many parallels. Let me go back. Oh, also, so the parallel of sort of perceptions of special powers is key for both. Let me just ask about theology really quick. Like, Joseph Smith was squarely someone who believed in God, and he was squarely someone who was Christian. And Mormonism is, you know, ultimately named after Jesus Christ. And it follows it's different than, you know, Protestant Christianity, but it definitely belongs in as a cousin of. Let's just say Protestant Christianity. Is Scientology have a belief in a God in. Does it believe in Jesus? Where does the name Scientology come from? And what are kind of the core theologies that are worth mentioning?

Marc Headley [00:20:59] Yeah, I'll let Claire go on this.

Claire Headley [00:21:00] Okay. So Scientology is definitely diametrically opposed to Christianity. In fact, L. Ron Hubbard wrote that religion is. Is something that was developed by psychiatrists and psychologists on the Whole track to control and. To control people and as a control mechanism. And I think even at one point, Hubbard wrote that Jesus Christ is a pedophile, according to L. Ron Hubbard.

Claire Headley [00:21:31] Yeah. And so definitely there is no belief in God. I always think the best way to explain that is if you ask any Scientologist, do you believe in God? The ironic thing is you'll get a different answer from every one of them. In Scientology, in terms of core beliefs, there are eight dynamics which are considered concentric circles. It starts with, the first dynamic is yourself, and it goes out from there. The eighth dynamic. So you have self, family, group, mankind, the animal kingdom.

Claire Headley [00:22:09] And then you have the physical universe, matter, energy, space, and time. Then you have the spiritual dynamic, which. Where you. Yourself as a thetan or soul. And then the eighth dynamic is referred to as the infinity dynamic, which is really just a very vague belief in a higher power, undefined, not God. There's no praying in Scientology. And so it's more of a practical approach. In fact, we were born into.

Marc Headley [00:22:43] They call it applied religious philosophy. That's how they technically describe it. And that also helps them with the religious cloaking. So when they get up to no good, they can say, oh, that's our part of our scriptures, or that's part of our religion. But up until.

Marc Headley [00:23:01] Up until the late 60s and the 70s, there's many references where L. Ron Hubbard says, scientology is absolutely not a religion. And only when they start having government and prosecution and investigative issues that they kind of morph over into, oh, no, this is part of our scriptures, or this is part of our religious beliefs. And then they. Hubbard quickly realized that if he was in that group, then the sky's the limit in terms of what you can do because you're a religiously protected group as opposed to a cult.

Marc Headley [00:23:37] And so that is the kind of switch to the religion aspect of. It was sort of a developmental aspect of Scientology. It wasn't baked into it from the beginning.

Claire Headley [00:23:49] Yeah. And. And it's a misuse of language. But Scientology believes itself more to be a technology than a belief system. And a technology in that it has the mechanisms and all the theories and everything developed so that you can live successfully in any area of your life.

John Dehlin [00:24:11] So it's kind of pseudoscience, self help.

Claire Headley [00:24:14] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:24:14] Wrapped in the cloak of a church or religion and just to be able to afford it. It. Religious protection.

Marc Headley [00:24:21] It's a cult operating as a business masquerading as a religion.

John Dehlin [00:24:27] I'm gonna repeat that. A cult masquerading as a business.

Marc Headley [00:24:31] A Cult operating business. A cult operating as a business masquerading as a religion.

John Dehlin [00:24:36] I mean, some. Why are you laughing, Margi?

Claire Headley [00:24:41] It's kind of on point.

Marc Headley [00:24:42] And it's funny that. That you wouldn't know it going in and growing up in it and being part of it as a child. But when you look back at it, almost every single module or concept or piece of all feeds in to the main core, which is Scientology is good. And if anything bad happens in Scientology, that was because of you.

John Dehlin [00:25:10] Yeah. Blame reversal.

Claire Headley [00:25:12] Yes.

Marc Headley [00:25:12] Yeah. So Scientology can never do anything wrong, can never make a mistake. And if anything bad happens, then you did something, or you have crimes or you have things that you've done in this life or a past life that you are now punishing yourself for because you're trying to do better. And in order to do better, you need to. Basically, you need to punish yourself to stop you from doing bad things. And everything sort of feeds into that, including when you're growing up in it. If you don't want to do Scientology, you're taught that the only people that don't want to do Scientology or don't want Scientology to succeed are criminals, because then their crimes will be uncovered, because Scientology is sort of the cleaner.

Marc Headley [00:26:07] The. That wipes away all of the facade and all of the coverups. And so only the criminals don't want Scientology to succeed because then people will realize their true nature. So they've sort of baked into it this thing where if you're growing up in it, then you're like, well, I can't say I don't wanna do it, because then they know I'm a criminal or. So you're kind of. It's. You're kind of stuck. If you're a young person and you have this sort of moral dilemma that's going on. And that's the other thing. You can't tell anybody anything in Scientology. They will.

Marc Headley [00:26:51] If you voice or express any discontent or complaint, they call it nattering or. And then. And if you do that, then that means you have overts and withholds, acts of commission or omission that you either did or you did and you don't want people to know about. That's the missed withhold that they have in Scientology. And almost all Scientologists are required or instructed to write up what's called their ows, their overts and withholds. It's basically like a written confession, and you write anything bad that you've done, where it happened, when it happened, all of the specifics in great detail. And then you turn those in, and then you basically.

Marc Headley [00:27:40] It's sort of like a confession. And then you're. Then it's like, okay, good. Now that you've done this, you're good. The slate's clean. And anytime anything happens, if you get sick or if you get into an accident or anything happens bad in your life, you must have done something again. And so then you need to go back and do this again. And so this is. Scientologists could have been in for decades. You might write up your overts and withholds. You might write them up a hundred times throughout that period. And it depends on where you are and what you're doing in Scientology. But in some places, once you write that up, you actually get put on what's called the E meter, where you hold these electrodes to can hands that are hooked up to this machine.

Marc Headley [00:28:29] And if the needle on the machine is doing a certain characteristic, then it means you rip. You wrote up everything. But if it has other characteristics, that means you have to go and write more. And so if you're thinking, and this is another weird thing about Scientology, if you think the E meter works, it will work.

Claire Headley [00:28:50] It's the power of belief.

Marc Headley [00:28:51] Yeah. If you think that. Because they teach you. And this is a thing I only learned afterwards, they teach you that this E meter has all these different characteristics depending on how you're thinking or depending if you did this or if you did that, if you know that it's going to do those sort of things and you have those thoughts, you sort of manifest it to do those things. And so then you go, oh, I didn't write up the thing. I did this thing. And then. So then when you're thinking about that, and they go, hey, you must be thinking about something, because. And so everything in Scientology feeds into everything they want it to do.

Claire Headley [00:29:28] Yeah. Circling back on, though, Mark talked about that the it's not optional to participate in Scientology and that they'll call you a criminal. To expand on that a little bit, it's in Scientology, L. Ron Hubbard wrote the he, the suppressive person, which is also referred to as the antisocial personality. And there's 12 traits of an antisocial personality. And he details that anyone who doesn't want to participate in Scientology is an antisocial personality who is part of the two and a half percent of Earth's population that are suppressive. And of course, that's as a child growing up in Scientology, it's almost the worst label you could possibly imagine. And it comes with very, very real consequences, such as losing your entire family to disconnection. So it's. It's layer upon layer of leverage and control.

John Dehlin [00:30:30] Yeah. And I just. I love noting the parallels. So Mormons also believe that things done in a previous life can impact your. Your status in the next life. There's the. There's confession, there's repentance, a strong guilt and shame component where you're always unworthy and you're always trying to become worthy. Criticism is the worst thing. The absolute worst thing in Mormonism, by far, is criticizing leaders, criticizing authority that gets you excommunicated. You guys are laughing.

Claire Headley [00:31:04] It's completely the same.

John Dehlin [00:31:06] Like, you get excommunicated for criticizing leaders. You don't necessarily get excommunicated for being a pedophile. I mean, that's just a fact.

Claire Headley [00:31:13] And that's the same in Scientology.

Marc Headley [00:31:15] The same in Scientology. If you say David Miscavige is a bad person, you're never gonna see your family again. If you run a daycare and you're abusing kids, that's, you know, maybe a weekend. You'll have to do some amends project.

Claire Headley [00:31:28] Yeah. On the contrary, Scientology will actually protect said criminal acts and said criminals to avoid any bad fallout to their public perception and reputation. And there are many, many instances of that. I mean, the Danny Masterson trial, in which I testified as an expert witness, is a prime example of that. That is broadly known to the public, where Scientology had documentation of Danny Masterson's criminal acts against women and covered it up and did not report it to law enforcement.

John Dehlin [00:32:03] Yeah. And I'm pretty sure we have the same consultants. The Mormon Church and the Church of Scientology have the same consultants or the same lawyers or the same accountants. Yeah, because where else in the world are whistleblowers the worst people ever? But criminals and sexual predators are protected and sometimes even promoted.

Claire Headley [00:32:23] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:32:24] Like in Mormonism, there are instances where predators actually get promoted. So we've got similar lawyers or consultants at some point, but then shunning. So, like, disconnection. If you leave the church. If you leave the church. We don't have hard shunning like Jehovah's Witnesses or Scientologists, but you can definitely be divorced, you know, withheld access to your kids or grandkids, and socially ostracized and marginalized. And there's no ethical, gracious way to leave. There's no good reason to leave.

Claire Headley [00:33:01] And if you do leave, you are perceived as a threat, for sure. Yes, very definitely. But I'm curious. So in disconnection, it's carried out in such a way, like remove all photos. It's like as if the person has died and absolutely no communication is allowed. Like, if they were to run into you in a grocery store, they'll leave and pretty much run away. I'm curious if shunning is that extreme.

John Dehlin [00:33:32] It's not that extreme on average in Mormonism.

Marc Headley [00:33:35] So, like, if you ran into somebody that you knew at the grocery store and they said, oh, hey, John, what's up?

John Dehlin [00:33:40] It would be a sticky sweet kind of high. Well, it would either be. They would avoid to talk to you. That would probably be the most. The most likely thing is they would just avoid talking to you. If there was a confrontation, it would kind of be a sticky sweet, hello, superficial. And then leave.

Marc Headley [00:33:57] Yeah. That's a similar thing in Scientology, except for the fact that, like, if you. If you leave, that's one thing, but if you leave and then you speak out.

John Dehlin [00:34:07] Yeah.

Marc Headley [00:34:08] Then you are what's called a suppressive person.

John Dehlin [00:34:10] Yeah.

Marc Headley [00:34:11] And that is put up on a very, very high pedestal of, like, this person. If you are in Scientology and you're getting counseling and you are connected to a suppressive person, and they find out that's it, you can't do Scientology because you're basically.

Marc Headley [00:34:29] Just by the connection, you are liability to them. And when you're in it, everybody knows, oh, this guy's an sp or this guy did this, but you don't really know what happened. You just know that he was labeled. And that is another thing. When you are. Are declared a suppressive person in Scientology, they write an issue, a piece of paper that says suppressive person declare. And it goes to everybody, everywhere to let everybody know this guy is a suppressive person, and. And you cannot have any contact with him whatsoever. So as long as your family are still in Scientology, if they talk to you, then they're not allowed in Scientology. Like, they.

Claire Headley [00:35:14] In fact, if they talk to you in violation of that paper that Mark referenced, they themselves can also be declared suppressive people. We both have our suppressive person declares. They don't actually issue them publicly anymore, but we have ours.

Marc Headley [00:35:33] We got a copy of ours. But the best part of that is that if you were witness to some wrongdoing and you saw crimes being committed, and then you said, hey, this is not cool. You guys can't be doing this.

Marc Headley [00:35:49] As soon as you're labeled a suppressive person, you've just been isolated and siloed against any of their current members. So it's a great way of keeping people siloed. And also people that are willing to say, hey, I worked at the headquarters for 15 years and I saw this and I saw that that can never get to these lower level people because then they get to see behind the curtain. And then everybody goes, is that really happening? And so it's a very. And they use family as leverage. Basically.

Marc Headley [00:36:24] If you've done something and they suspect that you're gonna leave or you're gonna speak out against them, they'll say, hey, listen, your mom wants to talk to you, your sister wants to talk to you. These people wanna be in your life.

Shunning, Suppressive Persons, and Family Separation

Marc Headley [00:36:37] If you do this, they're not going to be in your life. And the second they flip the switch and they say you're suppressive. Like we have family members, we have hate websites that Scientology runs on us where they have her mother, my mother, my sister, her brother, they have their stepdad, my cousin. Yeah.

Claire Headley [00:36:57] People we worked with at the headquarters that's run by their tax exempt dollars to maintain. We've had those sites for. They've had those up on us for more than 10 years.

John Dehlin [00:37:10] Yeah. And the Mormon Church definitely indirectly funds hate sites against critics. I've had plenty of that. They don't go to the extent of going to my believing family and friends and get them to record testimonials. So y' all take it to a

Claire Headley [00:37:28] level that is next level. It's really painful. That is painful. Painful.

Marc Headley [00:37:33] I imagine even in the past year, this is a new thing. We hadn't, we hadn't really experienced this before. Maybe within the last few years, where they actually have been going to my business clients and writing letters and sending emails and sending the hate website things directly to my clients and to mine and to Claire's clients, doing a whole

Claire Headley [00:37:59] slander campaign on me, on Twitter, to our entire town of Castle Rock, like the Chamber of Commerce and this. And wrong audience, for sure. 100%. But also like chaos makers. Complete your life.

Marc Headley [00:38:16] Yeah. When you leave Scientology, you're basically declared a suppressive person. And there is a policy that L. Ron Hubbard wrote which is basically how you treat suppressives. And in it, he says they're fair game. SPs are fair game. And the purpose of the operations that Scientology runs against someone who's fair game is to destroy them utterly. He says it very clearly in this thing. The purpose of a fair game campaign is to destroy them utterly. Utterly.

Claire Headley [00:38:54] And to silence. And to silence them and to find what they love and destroy it, Find what they hate and use it against them. Like it's fair game is an entire body of policies that is structured on it and breaking it down to exact steps of how to silence anyone who dares talking.

Marc Headley [00:39:17] It's kind of crazy. And. And it. And.

John Dehlin [00:39:19] And

Marc Headley [00:39:21] I don't want to say we're numb to it, but the fact that we grew up in Scientology, we were there. We were raised there. It's funny to me that they were like, well, these people are horrible people. And these things, all the things they've done, it's like your creation. All the things that you're saying we did are things that you taught us. We were there. You're saying we did all these bad things. We were working for you when all these things happened. And then even in my case, they're trying to portray me as like a devil child. So even when I was 6 years old and we were. My mom was just getting into Scientology, that I was doing things when I was six, and my sister and my mom are doing these videos.

Claire Headley [00:40:05] They're alleging. Alleging.

Marc Headley [00:40:07] Well, they're saying, like, oh, he tried to drown me when I was six. And I'm like a six year old trying to drown a ground. A grown woman when he was six years old.

John Dehlin [00:40:15] And.

Marc Headley [00:40:15] And that's why I was in Scientology and worked at the headquarters for 15 years and kept getting promoted, because I was this evil child. So to me, it's almost like. It's. It's almost comical when they send it to people. And the people that know me, they go like, dude, I got this email from Scientology. What the hell? And I go like, oh, yeah, that was a lifetime ago. And they go like, yeah, where was they? Also, when I first left Scientology, I had a birthday in Hollywood, and it was the first time I had had a lot to drink, and I passed out. And I passed out right on Hollywood Boulevard.

Marc Headley [00:40:55] And one of the guys that was with me was working for Scientology. He took a bunch of pictures of me, gave them to Scientology, and then when I started speaking out, they said, hey, we wouldn't want these pictures to get out, now, would we? And I got sent. I got texted this picture of me passed out on Holly Boulevard. And so I immediately was like, this

Claire Headley [00:41:14] was like seven years after it happened, by the way.

Marc Headley [00:41:16] And I said, wow, how long have you guys been holding this for? And so I just sent it out, I tweeted it out or whatever, and I put it on Facebook, and I said, hey, just so you know, I'm speaking out against Scientology, and they're gonna try to whip this photo out. So I'LL just tell you, this is the scenario, and that is the photo that they're sending to my clients now.

John Dehlin [00:41:35] Yeah.

Marc Headley [00:41:36] And some of my clients are getting this email with this photo, and they're going like, hey, where was that guy when you. When you were here doing that job? You know, we wanted to meet this guy. This guy seems like a party.

Claire Headley [00:41:46] Yeah. I would like to add two things, though. I. In my opinion, the entire body of fair game policies is as much designed to deter someone who leaves Scientology from speaking out as it is to destroy the people that do. And Mark says we're numb to it. I would.

Claire Headley [00:42:03] I would say that Mark started speaking out before I did. And being that I was born into Scientology, to me, it was terrifying. I was absolutely, very fearful of what they would do to us. But there was a moment. Mark had been posting for about a year and a half and just saying what our experiences were at the headquarters, what David Miscavige actually does to his staff in terms of physical abuse and all these things that we'd personally witnessed.

Claire Headley [00:42:35] However, in mid 2008, by that point, we had a two year old and we had a second son who was about three months old. And child services showed up at our door and they said, we're legally required to be here. But we've looked into this claim. It's obviously false. You need to watch your back. And it was at that moment, like. Like, you know, frozen in time for me, where I realized they are never going to stop. It does. Our silence means nothing. We have to stand up to this bullying and abusive organization for the sake of our kids and for the sake of the truth.

John Dehlin [00:43:13] That's a great segue to jump back to your story, and we'll definitely come back around to that stuff. So thank you for sharing. I'm so sorry that's happened to y'. All. You know, the Mormon Church has done versions of that to us and others, but not that bad. So we're so sorry. Really quickly, before we jump back into your story, Claire, and then yours, Mark, just in terms of, like, I don't know, I remember watching the south park episode, you know, Tom Cruise in the closet or whatever it was, and they talk about the volcanoes and the thetans. I want to get a sen.

Core Theology and the Appeal of Scientology

John Dehlin [00:43:57] That deeper theology. I know you don't learn that until you reach a certain level. And it's kind of top secret also. Just like, there's got to be good things about Scientology. In other words, ways that it does help people learn and grow. That's got to be the core of what draws people in and makes. Allows them to pull people off the street and get them what the lure is. So let's talk about the lure and then also that deeper theology really quick. And then. And Claire, we really want to get to your story.

Claire Headley [00:44:26] Sure.

Marc Headley [00:44:27] My friend Jason Begay said it best. He says there's always got to be some cheese in the trap. And that in Scientology, they have sort of these things, they're called introductory courses or extension courses that you can do in Scientology, where if you're having problems at work, they have a course that's how to make work easier. And they have a communication course that will teach you how to have a proper conversation with somebody and be able to talk to anybody and how to have successful relationships. And so they have a lot of these kind of starter courses that you can do that are. And sometimes under $100, like maybe a $25 course or a $50 course, or you can buy a book and read a book and get the audiobook and listen to that.

Marc Headley [00:45:21] And a lot of those things are things that Hubbard sort of lifted from all these other different areas. So Scientology is essentially a whole bunch of stuff that L. Ron Hubbard read about or experienced in other books or in other cults.

John Dehlin [00:45:40] Like a mishmash of self improvement. Exactly.

Marc Headley [00:45:43] Completely life improvement, self help sort of collection that he kind of reworded or tweaked or did something like that. Ron Miscavige, David Miscavige's father, Ron Miscavige Sr. He actually, when he left Scientology after he escaped from the same property we worked at, he was doing a project for many years to try to isolate these key components of Scientology and where Hubbard had got the them from. And I think he had, like 11 different books that pretty much contained all of the core practices of Scientology, and they were all 40 or 50 or 20 or 30 years predating Scientology. So you could see, oh, Hubbard 100% read this book because he didn't even really change that much about it. He just lifted it in an in toto and put it into something.

John Dehlin [00:46:34] Okay. And so that. That's another parallel because Joseph Smith was definitely a plagiarist. A lot of the Book of Mormon comes from the Old Testament, comes from the New Testament, comes from what's called the mound builder myth about Native Americans, comes from Protestant Christianity at the time. So, like, both plagiarists, 100%.

Marc Headley [00:46:56] And the other funny thing is that even the Lord Zenu story, so that's sort of. That what's covered in the south park episode.

John Dehlin [00:47:04] Do you want to just give an overview of that?

Marc Headley [00:47:06] Well, essentially, there was over 75 trillion years ago, there was overpopulation in Another star system 9 light 90 light years away or something.

John Dehlin [00:47:16] Was this in one of his fiction books?

Marc Headley [00:47:17] No, this is on operating Thetan level three.

John Dehlin [00:47:20] But he didn't start this in a fiction book.

Claire Headley [00:47:22] Well, there is a script called to the Stars that covers a lot of the story in parallel.

Marc Headley [00:47:27] Like Revolt in the Stars.

Claire Headley [00:47:29] Revolt. Yes, that's right. Revolt in the Stars.

Marc Headley [00:47:32] It's essentially a book. Book slash screenplay that he had written before or after? Before before. But it is the entirety of the story, but in, like, book form. And that. But that. That is very sort of. In Scientology, no one's allowed to read it because then you would essentially be reading this confidential level. But even in that, he has this. The character Xenu, he says he could be called Z New or Z Mu, which is kind of a weird thing to say because it's totally different. But even that, there was a. A very similar alien character that had been created many years prior by Marvel, the comics. And. And he's called Zemu, and he is. Has all the same sort of powers that the guy. So even the fact that. That this core belief, it very likely was ripped off from a Marvel comic

Claire Headley [00:48:35] book, which, you know, we do love Marvel, however, in this case. Yeah, you love Marvel as fiction. That's right. Not as human. The reason you're struggling as a human being is because Xenu, the galactic overlord from tjak77, 36 million years ago, engaged in a depopulation. There was overpopulation, so he took all the thetans and smashed them into hydrogen cubes and transferred them to Earth on. What was it? DC7s on the planes.

Marc Headley [00:49:08] DC10s with jet engines.

Claire Headley [00:49:10] DC10s with jet engines, and then launched said hydrogen cubes into volcanoes all over Earth, by the way.

Marc Headley [00:49:20] Volcanoes that technically weren't there.

Claire Headley [00:49:23] Yeah.

Marc Headley [00:49:23] At that time period, because they hadn't formed yet. So, like, there's.

John Dehlin [00:49:27] So there's an anachronism problem.

Marc Headley [00:49:29] Yeah, so there is. There are. And also TGI is the name for Earth for.

Claire Headley [00:49:34] Oh, you're right.

Marc Headley [00:49:35] You're right. Yeah, they were from another.

Claire Headley [00:49:37] Yeah, they were from another. They were brought to tgiac, AKA Earth. He's right. Yeah. But. Yeah. So when you. And so in Scientology, once you've reached the state of clear. That means you've now established that you. You were the source of your reactive mind. And everything. It's gone now. And everything's Wonderful. But wait, you have millions of body thetans who are stuck to you as a result of this Lord's inu and the hydrogen bombs and all that. So you literally have to address those body thetans telepathically using the E meter, find out which volcano they were put in. Even if the that said volcano didn't exist at the time they were put into it, that's not a part of the narrative.

Marc Headley [00:50:23] Essentially all those beings that he put into the volcanoes, when they escaped from the volcanoes, he captured them. And this also ties into the Christianity he basically says. Hubbard says that when Lord Zenu recaptured the souls from the aliens, he implanted them by showing them movie pictures of a man on the cross and the angel, and he showed the cherub and the chariot.

Claire Headley [00:50:51] There is a lot of Christian symbology that is tied into those upper levels as that they were used to implant beings and is the cause of why you are irrational.

Marc Headley [00:51:07] So basically every person on Earth has these aliens in them that were implanted with these memories of, of Jesus and angels and all these things. And so that's why everyone has a common attachment or drawing to it, because everyone was brainwashed with those images. So that's why they're useful to those religions and they can capitalize on that so really quickly.

John Dehlin [00:51:38] So many parallels. So yeah, it's just hilarious that when Joseph Smith produced the Book of Mormon, he saw horses and wheat and sheep and silk and things like that all around him in early 19th century America. So he writes all that into the Book of Mormon. Chariots and wheels and steel.

John Dehlin [00:52:00] Well, during the time period the Book of Mormon, none of that stuff existed in Mesoamerica. So I guess both the creations, the fictional creations of both founders have anachronisms that pretty much prove, in your case, the volcanoes that L. Ron Hubbard says, what Zenu sent the thetans to. Those volcanoes didn't exist yet. We have anachronisms too. We also believe that in a pre life, Satan got a third of God's spirit children to follow him, and they were all cast out of heaven. And so Satan as a spirit demon, along with a third of all the spirit children God created, are sent to earth. And the purpose of Satan and those demons are to infiltrate the bodies of humans and tempt them to do evil.

Claire Headley [00:52:54] Wow.

John Dehlin [00:52:56] So we have thetans. They're just Satan, something else that follow Satan.

Claire Headley [00:53:01] Thetans, not thetans.

Marc Headley [00:53:04] Yeah, they mispronounce. They mispronounce it in the south park episode.

John Dehlin [00:53:08] Oh, that's why.

Claire Headley [00:53:09] Yes,

Marc Headley [00:53:11] I want to see which rhymes With Satan.

Claire Headley [00:53:13] It's relevant.

Marc Headley [00:53:16] Satan and thetan. The guy that was the consultant on the south park thought he. I think the story is that he corrected him and said, oh, no, it's actually faith. But it was comedically funnier to say it as a thetan. So they left it wrong for comedic value.

Claire Headley [00:53:36] Okay, I have a quick clarification question. So when you're talking about this story that you just told us.

Marc Headley [00:53:42] Yeah.

Claire Headley [00:53:43] So. And you said the book one Dianetics, right? Yes. So are they viewed as, oh, they're helpful books to read or. Oh, there. Or is it like scripture? And is this story you just described in another work of. That you read and then you get. Is that how it works?

Marc Headley [00:54:06] Yeah, yeah. The operating thetan. Level 3 is the level where you find out about Lord Xenu and the body thetans, and that whole entire story is written in words and it's actually in L. Ron Hubbard's handwriting writing.

John Dehlin [00:54:22] And you were taught this, Claire, because you made level three, right?

Claire Headley [00:54:24] Yes, I did.

John Dehlin [00:54:25] Okay.

Claire Headley [00:54:25] I made level five.

John Dehlin [00:54:26] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Claire Headley [00:54:27] But yes. No, it's, it's. And it's super, super confidential like they are. They're the. It's printed on what they. They call them plantains, platons. And it's locked up and you have to go through double security doors and it can never leave. And it's super. It's like wired to the tables and levels.

Marc Headley [00:54:48] Yeah.

Claire Headley [00:54:49] Doesn't that remind you of. So I don't know if you've watched

Marc Headley [00:54:51] Severance, but we've done many episodes on our channel because like Mormonism people will say, oh, my God. If you watch Severance, the amount of things that are like Scientology are insane. And if you've watched Severance, the sea organization in Scientology is Severance. Except you don't have an Audi. You're always an innie. That's how you only have.

Claire Headley [00:55:16] You only have an Audi if you escape. But yeah, we've did like three episodes just deep diving on Severance. I'm a huge fan of the Severance show. I think it's brilliant. Yeah, absolutely brilliant. For Mark, it was a little too

Marc Headley [00:55:31] triggering because I was like, why do I need to watch this? I worked there. I know what this is. The amount of. Of the amount of parallels between that show and Scientology are kind of wild. And I want to say Ben Stiller

John Dehlin [00:55:49] was never a Scientologist, right?

Marc Headley [00:55:50] No, he wasn't, but his dad was on the same show with Leah Remini, the King of Queens show.

John Dehlin [00:55:56] Okay.

Marc Headley [00:55:57] And we were told that there are several People that were involved with the show that 100% studied Scientology to then do the show or use that as. What do you call it? As inspiration.

John Dehlin [00:56:14] That's weird because we thought it was based on Mormonism.

Claire Headley [00:56:19] Probably a lot of cult people thought, oh, that's because there are so many similarities. Maybe it's a study in cultic control and parallels and everything else. But yes, to us, there are many, many parallels.

Marc Headley [00:56:32] Yeah, there is a very funny video on YouTube that's probably from the late 70s or early 80s, which is like signs you're in a cult and everybody's wearing. You can tell by the way it's shot and what everybody's wearing of the outfits. But if they're like information control, and then they basically go through all these things. And when I first saw the video, I thought, oh, this is. This is super lame. This is kind of like a dumb video. But then when I watch the whole thing, I'm like, oh, yeah, Scientology has every single one of those things.

L. Ron Hubbard's Final Years and Death

John Dehlin [00:57:03] Okay, so let's just go from L. Ron Hubbard to David Miscavige really quick. So L. Ron Hubbard lives until what, the 80s?

Marc Headley [00:57:14] Is that January 1986?

Claire Headley [00:57:16] Yeah, January 24th, 1986 is the day L. Ron Hubbard passed. Which ironically, January 24th, unbeknownst to me, actually is the day I escaped. I didn't realize it was the same day L. Ron Hubbard died because they kept it very hush hush, like Scientologists don't actually know. At least I never knew what day he died or the circumstances or anything else.

John Dehlin [00:57:38] Was he supposed to live forever?

Claire Headley [00:57:39] Yeah, well, no, it's because he didn't die. He intentionally dropped his body and left to go to target 2. And so we were left behind to finish clearing planet Earth. And with the. Then maybe on target too.

John Dehlin [00:57:54] According to theology of Scientology, or belief, he consciously chose to move to a different lifestation.

Marc Headley [00:58:01] This body would no longer support his research. So in order to travel to the planes that he needed to travel to, then he had to discard this body because it wasn't capable of doing the research that he needed to do. And so, and then, and he actually, in his writings, he talks about basically the over writing purpose of all of Scientology is to clear the planet so every single person on the planet will reach the level of clear in Scientology.

John Dehlin [00:58:35] That's getting rid of all the thetans.

Marc Headley [00:58:37] No, no, the thetans come after clear. First. You. You find out in Scientology. In Dianetics, you find out that you have ingrained and that these, the engrams

Claire Headley [00:58:47] are a part of Your reactive mind. So you have your analytical mind and your reactive mind. And the reactive mind is the source of all psychosomatic illnesses, aberrations, as they're referred to in Scientology. And so, yes, when you're cleared, you've run out those engrams until you realize that you made your reactive mind, and now you've reached the state of clear.

Marc Headley [00:59:14] And then once you're clear, you find out, well, now you're in a very dangerous level, and it's called the non interference zone. And you have to, as quickly as possible, get from clear to OT3, because on OT3, they call it the wall of fire. And once you walk through the wall of fire, now you basically become cause over the universe. And actually, the way they define an operating thetan is someone who is cause over matter, energy, space, and time. And in order to be an operating thetan, you have to be cause over matter, energy, space, and time.

John Dehlin [00:59:57] And that's meaning you have special powers.

Marc Headley [00:59:59] Yes. And they actually. It's funny that later on in Scientology, that there was always the cause. They call it mess cause over messed matter, energy, space, and time. But they have a. They have an actual course in Scientology that you do that is called Superpower. It's an actual. That's what the name of it is, the Superpower Rundowns.

Claire Headley [01:00:22] So it's. It's training and counseling in various different steps, but there's all. Yeah, it is called the Superpower Rundowns.

Marc Headley [01:00:33] And so either way, they have. They basically tell you at first you have Ingrams. So then you do all this auditing and counseling to get rid of your engrams. As soon as you find out that you have no more engrams, that you actually realize I created the engrams. And so then you find out not only that, but you've got these space cooties living in you too.

John Dehlin [01:00:57] Called.

Marc Headley [01:00:58] Called the body thing. Thetans.

Claire Headley [01:01:00] Not to be confused with thetan. You're the. Yeah, you are a thetan. But the reason you're struggling in life for any reason whatsoever is because you have body things. And L. Ron Hubbard even says body thetans is what causes cancer. So by. By doing the upper levels of Scientology, according statistically, it hasn't proven out to be true, of course. But circling back to Elrond Hyper, yes, he left us all here behind to finish clearing the planet with the technology he'd created and the path he had outlined. And he was going off to target too. Of course, that doesn't line up with his death certificate, but that's Neither, because

John Dehlin [01:01:41] in theory, he would have been so pure without all these thetans and whatever, he wouldn't have died of cancer or whatever. Yeah, because he would have been so righteous. He would have been pure. So he couldn't just die immortal. Certainly not by cancer.

Claire Headley [01:01:55] Correct. Exactly. Yes.

Marc Headley [01:01:56] And one of the kind of wild things is that there were people with him where he lived. He lived in a place called Creston in California. He lived on a horse ranch there. And he actually instructed one of the people that worked. It was like a maintenance guy that did stuff around the ranch there. He had instructed him that he wanted this E meter to be modified. The Scientology E meter to be modified.

Marc Headley [01:02:22] Because even right before his death, Hubbard believed that he still had body thetans that he had not been able to get rid of. And his thinking at that time was that he had to electrocute the body thetans to kill them. And that the guy basically disregarded Hubbard's instructions because he said, if I do this and you use this, you're going to kill yourself. So he wouldn't do it. But Hubbard was still paranoid up until his death that he still had body thetans that were doing things and making things happen in his own life, and he was paranoid about getting rid of them and how he could possibly get rid of them.

John Dehlin [01:03:09] What does death certificate say? Do we know?

Marc Headley [01:03:12] I think he. It was. I think he. I don't remember exactly.

Claire Headley [01:03:14] I'd have to look.

Marc Headley [01:03:15] Pulmonary embolism.

Claire Headley [01:03:17] There was a. There was a few different things, including drugs in his system. And. And again, any. All of those. The documents relating to that were never shared with Scientologists. All of that was very. Nobody should talk about it. Nobody should ever see it. No. You know, because. No, the narrative is Hubbard went off to target too, and Miscavige swooped in and did a coup, essentially, and took control of everything, because that's not what Hubbard had intended.

John Dehlin [01:03:52] And then also, oh, Brooklyn just shared L. Ron Hubbard's death certificate, signed by his personal physician, Dr. Jean Denk. Dr. Jean Denk stated the cause of death, death as cerebral vascular accident, stroke.

Marc Headley [01:04:10] There you go.

John Dehlin [01:04:10] A diagnosis also confirmed by the official news report at the time.

Marc Headley [01:04:15] Yeah, and the interesting thing about that,

John Dehlin [01:04:18] his body was cremated, it says.

Marc Headley [01:04:19] Yes, well, they cremated him because they didn't want anybody to know that he had psychiatric drugs in his body. In Scientology, they're very anti psychiatry and anti psychology. And L. Ron Hubbard, when he died, he had an antipsychotic drug in his body. So.

Claire Headley [01:04:37] And Dr. Jean Dank is a Scientologist. It Bears mentioning.

John Dehlin [01:04:40] And then really quickly, one of the big questions I always get is, do the Mormon Church leaders really believe what they're teaching? And did Joseph Smith really believe he was seeing angels? So you're saying there's good evidence that L. Ron Hubbard actually believed in the thetans?

Marc Headley [01:04:57] I genuinely think that he really did think whether it started out that way, and then by the time he got to be how many ever. I mean, he. He was born in 1914.

Claire Headley [01:05:09] 1911.

Marc Headley [01:05:10] 1911, and he died in 86. So he was in his 70s, and he was paranoid. He was taking antipsychotics, and he thought there were space cooties or body things in his body.

Claire Headley [01:05:28] So meanwhile, convinced that government and all kinds of other people are all out to get him, chasing after him, and they're all out to get him.

Marc Headley [01:05:37] And he thought Scientology was stealing his money. He thought David Miscavige, specifically was stealing his money. So he was paranoid and thinking certain things, and he wasn't too far off on. On a few things. So it's hard to say. And this was also 86. I was like, I think 1312 years old when that happened. So I remember going. They had an event at the Hollywood Palladium in Los Angeles, and that is where it was a big thing. All Scientologists had to attend. It was a mandatory event that everybody had to go to, and everybody went to the Palladium in Los Angeles. And. And there were.

Marc Headley [01:06:19] You know, there's a lot. Tons of people there. And they. These people in Navy uniforms from the Sea organization came out and they announced that L. Ron Hubbard had dropped his body. That's what they call it when you pass away in Scientology. You drop the body because you're a spirit. The body is just like the container.

John Dehlin [01:06:38] And Mormons believe that, too.

Marc Headley [01:06:40] Okay. So as soon as they said he had dropped his body, people started crying and gasping and all kinds of.

Claire Headley [01:06:48] This video is on YouTube, by the way. Yeah.

Marc Headley [01:06:51] And it was a wild thing.

John Dehlin [01:06:53] Pretty sure Tom Cruise was there.

Marc Headley [01:06:54] No, he wasn't there. This was. This was in 1986.

John Dehlin [01:06:58] Oh, before.

Marc Headley [01:06:59] So it was before Cruz was in Scientology, I think, even. But. But I remember when that happened. And they put this number up on the screen that showed how far back L. Ron Hubbard had researched or something like that. It was a specific date, and it was like, 47 digits long. And it was sort of like, for some people, they say, he's passed away. Oh, and this is his research or whatever has gone this far back. Some people were like, I'm out. Like, this Is crazy. You guys are crazy, basically.

John Dehlin [01:07:37] Okay, okay, so you all a little

Claire Headley [01:07:39] tell a little tell there.

Marc Headley [01:07:41] What? It's funny because actually the person who told me this is my neighbor in Castle Rock. My. A neighbor who lives two houses over went to the same Scientology school that I went to. And we didn't even know he was a Scientologist. He didn't know I was a Scientologist until, like the Scientology and the Aftermath show came out. And he watched it and he saw Claire and I on the episode and he walked across. Hey, man, I wanted to share my yearbook. I think we went to the same school. And I was like, dude, this guy had done work. He's a construction guy. He's like, you've done work for me. He goes, yeah, I don't lead with that. I'm like, I don't lead with that either.

Claire Headley [01:08:20] Even his wife didn't know.

John Dehlin [01:08:23] Well, that's wild that L. Ron Hubbard, by the end of his life, believed his own fiction. That's crazy.

Claire Headley [01:08:29] I think that has a lot to do with, number one, the power of belief, number two, his psychosis, as proven by the information we've heard from people who were directly with him. You know, at some point you can spin a story so elaborate and start, you know, believing it. I don't. I personally don't think that's the case with David Miscavige.

John Dehlin [01:08:54] Yeah, well, really quickly, so did again, probably another parallel with Joseph Smith. Did L. Ron Hubbard leave a clear succession plan for who would take over?

Marc Headley [01:09:04] No, same with Joseph Smith.

John Dehlin [01:09:05] In fact, Joseph Smith. Smith probably told five or six different people they would be his successor.

Marc Headley [01:09:10] That's exactly what Hubbard. That's exactly what Hubbard did. In fact, Hubbard had written the levels up to OT level 8 and that was it. But the bridge to Total freedom that he wrote in the 60s has all the way up to OT level 15. But he had never written from 8 to 15. He spent the last several years of his life writing a fiction series called mission Earth. It's 10 volumes and all of the volumes are a lot. And it's also very, very graphic. Space porn. That is what it is. Anybody reading it would, as any Scientologist reading it, could not, not negate that fact. It is horrible, horrible, violent porn in space. That's what it is.

Claire Headley [01:10:09] The whole series, including also involving children and very extreme.

John Dehlin [01:10:16] Is this available to read?

Marc Headley [01:10:17] Oh, yeah, it's called Mission earth. It's a 10 volume science fiction series.

Claire Headley [01:10:21] Yeah.

Marc Headley [01:10:22] Okay. He didn't write past OT8, but he spent years writing this and Right. It was basically released right after he passed away.

Claire Headley [01:10:34] Well, they start the Mission Earth started. The release started in like the early 80s, but they were coming out regularly. And yeah, that was one thing. Like, oh, well, at least he finished Mission Earth, but bummer, he didn't finish the upper levels.

Marc Headley [01:10:49] So that's the other thing that's kind of like. So wait a minute. So he wrote all these upper levels and he spent all this time to this point, but from 8 to 15 he didn't do anything, but he spent all these years writing this instead, so it couldn't have been that important to him that if he. He decided, oh, no, this science fiction series, I really want to get that out. Who cares who takes over the Scientology Church? And who cares about these upper levels? I really got to jam this space space series.

Claire Headley [01:11:21] And it bears mentioning too. Okay, so we're referring to the bridge to Total Freedom. There's two sides to the bridge. One side is all the training where you come up the levels. And there are all these different classes is referred to of auditor. So you have Class 0, Class 1, all the way up to Class 12. Class 12 is the top of the grade chart. It's the highest trained auditor or counselor that you can be.

John Dehlin [01:11:46] How much money gets you there? Just to let people know how much

Claire Headley [01:11:48] of this, like, ballpark for the training is cheaper than the counseling. So I would say just off the top of my head, probably a quarter of a million dollars, including materials, multiple E meters that you have to own

Marc Headley [01:12:02] if you want to do the training and the counseling. You can't get in. You can't get up to there without a half a million.

Claire Headley [01:12:10] Like, at least.

Marc Headley [01:12:11] And if you want to do it fast, then maybe a million. Like, it's not cheap. No, there's no poor OT8s rolling around.

Claire Headley [01:12:21] And keep in mind that's just the cost of those transactional pieces of it. That doesn't include the donations you're expected to make to the International association of Scientologists, nor going traveling to Clearwater to do the upper levels, staying in their hotels, all on and on and on. All the elements of it. But yeah, so as Mark's saying, the. The training side was fully released up to Class 12, but the counseling side, the auditing side, lists up to OT15, but he only got as far as OT8.

Marc Headley [01:12:55] And I will note that by the time you get through operating thetan level 7, you are supposed to have excised all of these body thetans. So the fact that there was an OT Level 8, which does not involve any body therapy. It has to do with you realizing that you. And when we talked about the God dynamic earlier and that Hubbard didn't really definitively define that there is a God, but there are higher level beings. When you get to OT level 8, you find out that you are a God and you created Lord Xenu, you created the body thetans, you created the reactive, you created everything. And so the fact that Hubbard wrote a level that said that, but at the same time he thought he still had body thetans.

Claire Headley [01:13:57] Yes, exactly.

Marc Headley [01:13:58] Then you go, there's a sort of a hang up right there where ot 7. You're not supposed to have any more body thetans. Hubbard wrote OT7 and then he wrote OT8. But then you find out that he still thought that he had body thetans. You basically go like, well, he must have got writer's block on the OT levels because he couldn't resolve that. How do we write these next levels? And that's another crazy thing in Scientology is they still are telling members that there are ot 9 through 15 are still going to be released. But everybody that worked at the headquarters and everybody who knows anything about any of this knows There is no OT levels above OT 9. They don't exist.

John Dehlin [01:14:45] Interesting. And by the way, Joseph Smith taught that righteous Mormons would become gods as well someday.

Marc Headley [01:14:51] Wow.

Claire Headley [01:14:51] I've heard that. And that they would get a planet and that's where their wives would go live and that they would all be called. Don't they have a secret name? The wives get given a secret name.

John Dehlin [01:15:03] I mean, all Mormons when they go to the temple, are given a new name when they go through the temple for the first time. Wow. But so many parallels. It's wild.

Claire Headley [01:15:14] Which is funny, by the way. It just occurred to me this is not the case now, but in the 70s, when this property, when the headquarter property was acquired, it wasn't for a religious belief. No, no, we're talking about the. I'm talking about the headquarters in Hollywood, the compound in Gilman Hot Springs, California, which is where Mark and I worked for 14 years. But for security reasons, nobody was allowed to use their actual name. They were all renamed. It wasn't religious. It had nothing to do with religion. It had to do with paranoia. But nonetheless, it just occurred to me,

Marc Headley [01:15:47] like if somebody was listening on, on the radios or on the phone, no one used anyone's real name. Yeah, Identif identified name. So everyone had nicknames. And even to this day, we still interview those people or talk to those people. And we use their code name. We don't use their real name because we never knew their real name. We only knew their code name.

Claire Headley [01:16:11] Yeah, that's very innie. That's very innie.

Marc Headley [01:16:15] That's another thing.

Claire Headley [01:16:16] Yes, very much so.

Marc Headley [01:16:18] They even have different names. It was funny because somebody. I can't remember who it was, but somebody I was talking to that said, oh, I talked to Gary the other day. And I go, who's Gary? And I go, you know, Gary used to be the security guy at the international headquarters. I go, oh, you mean Jackson. And they go, yes, Jackson. That was his code name was Jackson.

Claire Headley [01:16:37] Because we just never knew him as Gary. So why would. We were like, who's Gary?

John Dehlin [01:16:41] And when ex Mormons are feeling naughty, they tell each other their temple names, refer to each other by their temple names. But that's real blas. That's blasphemous.

Marc Headley [01:16:51] Oh, it's a bad thing. Thing.

John Dehlin [01:16:52] But it's super bad.

Claire Headley [01:16:53] That's. But. So that's on par.

John Dehlin [01:16:57] Mormon wives are allowed to tell their husbands their temple names, but Mormon husbands aren't supposed to tell their wives their temple names.

Claire Headley [01:17:04] Wow.

John Dehlin [01:17:05] So it's super.

Marc Headley [01:17:07] So we have a very similar thing which is in. In the Sea organization, specifically, it doesn't matter if you're male or female. If you're a female and you're an officer, then the other Sea Org members have to call you sir or by your last name with Mr.

Marc Headley [01:17:27] So because she worked in Religious Technology center, which is the highest Scientology organization. And I worked in Golden. Golden Era Productions, which was the. Like, the propaganda machine of Scientology, where they made audio, visual, TV ads and stuff like that. But it's a much lower organization, the Religious Technology Center. If she came to my work area with other RTC Sea Org members and they were asking me questions, and if she asked me a question, I would have to say, yes, sir. And I would have to call her Mr. Headley, even though she was my wife. And I would have to say, yes, sir. Or if somebody said, did somebody come by? I would have to say, yeah, some people from RTC. And they say, well, who. Mr. Headley?

Claire Headley [01:18:11] If he referred to me as Claire, he could get written up in a knowledge report because it's out fo 38 Flag Order 38, which is called Ethics

Marc Headley [01:18:21] Presence, which dictates these rules and. And things that you have to do. Yes, really had to call her Mr. Headley many times.

John Dehlin [01:18:33] Just the final parallel. Joseph Smith. Absolutely. Because Became super paranoid at the end of his life and made all Sorts of terrible decisions, endangering the lives of so many people because he. He was being chased by the law and kind of went crazy anyway. All right, well, that's it.

Marc Headley [01:18:51] Okay, so press like a baseline for what we're going to talk about.

John Dehlin [01:18:56] Yeah. But then also Brigham Young. Young was the successor to Joseph Smith, and he kind of seized control of the Mormon Church. Do you want to tell us, just briefly, David Miscavige.

David Miscavige's Rise to Power

Claire Headley [01:19:09] I love how we use the word briefly. I feel like this whole last discussion, John, was like, let's 20 minutes, three minutes. Three or four minutes. Yeah. Well, unfortunately, the history of Scientology and everything is so involved. This is a brief version. Absolutely. I believe you.

John Dehlin [01:19:26] It is.

Claire Headley [01:19:28] We're doing as the cliff, but yes. So David Miscavige. So when L. Ron Hubbard died, Annie and Pat Broeker were a husband and wife that were with him until the day he died. And again, some of this is somewhat folk law because it was kept very under wraps. But the initial announcement was that Pat and Annie were to be to take over as the loyal officers. But within a day, that was canceled and scrapped. And now David Miscavige was at the Palladium event announcing the death of L. Ron. Or no, not the death. L. Ron Hubbard dropped his body and had moved on to target two.

Claire Headley [01:20:11] And that was the beginning of the end of anyone else having any position of power in Scientology to where you fast forward to today. David Miscavige is. His official title is Chairman of the Board, which implies that there is a board, which there isn't. He's the chairman of a board of one.

Claire Headley [01:20:35] And even any person during the years that we were there, any person who had an executive position in Scientology already had a signed letter of resignation on file. So that no matter what. But David Miscavige had complete control over every organization in Scientology. And he, as the chairman of the board of Religious Technology center, is the highest ecclesiastical person in Scientology that has complete control.

Marc Headley [01:21:03] And the way he did that was he was the head. David Miscavige was. Before this, he was chairman of the board, Author Services. And what Author Services is, it's a corporation that is set up within Scientology, that is Hubbard's literary agent.

Marc Headley [01:21:26] So every time somebody anywhere in Scientology buys a Scientology book or does a Scientology course or goes through a Scientology sponsored rehabilitation program, they get a cut, they get a royalty of that. And that. That royalty organization, Author Services, was what David Miscavige was the head of. And he was involved with the lawyers and involved with all the different corporations in Scientology so that he knew how to protect Hubbard from. And insulate him from being charged in any of these cases, because he's just the author and he's just getting royalties. He's not getting all the money from Scientology.

Marc Headley [01:22:13] And so they basically corporately and legally figured out how to insulate Hubbard. But David Miscavige was the one in charge of that project, and it was actually called. I want to say it was called Project All Clear, and it was so that Hubbard could eventually come out of

Claire Headley [01:22:31] hiding from law enforcement and to eliminate the pending lawsuits. At the time, that was also part of Project. Project All Clear, or maybe Project Clear, I can't remember. But yeah.

Marc Headley [01:22:43] But basically, when David Miscavige was doing that, he figured out, and as instructed to him by L. Ron Hubbard, you have to make it so that I can be in the clear again and I'm not being chased by all these different governments. And in order to do that, David Miscavige isolated all of the weaknesses in Scientology, figured out how he could silo all these different.

Marc Headley [01:23:11] And I think this is my opinion, that during the course of that, he realized that he now knew everything, how it could work, even more than Hubbard did. And he was. Him and Pat Broeker. Pat Broeker was the one with L. Ron Hubbard, and David Miscavige was in Los Angeles or at the headquarters in Gilman Hot Springs. Those two places was where David Miscavige was operating out of. And during that time period, David Miscavige was isolating. Okay, these are my allies. These are my enemies. These are the guys that are threats to me. So as soon as Hubbard passed away, he put his plan into action, and he immediately got rid the people that were.

Marc Headley [01:24:02] This is an interesting thing, too. The people that were with. With L. Ron Hubbard, besides Pat Broeker, everybody that was with L. Ron Hubbard when he passed away went to this thing that's called the Rehabilitation Project Force within the Sea Organization. It's basically like a labor and reprogramming camp.

Claire Headley [01:24:19] Yeah, it's the ultimate punishment to a member of the Sea Organization. You're literally not allowed to talk to anybody else outside of that program. You dress in black. You have to run everywhere. You're interrogated five hours a day for your age. Evil purposes. And when you're not getting interrogated for evil purposes, you're doing heavy manual labor. It's the most extreme reprogramming in Scientology.

Marc Headley [01:24:43] Do not speak unless spoken to. Yeah, the whole thing. So all of those people besides Pat Broeker and The only reason Pat Broeker didn't stay is David Miscavige suspected that he might have OT 9 and 10. And David Miscavige couldn't find OT 9 and 10. And Pat Broeker said, hey, Elron Hubbard said, I would be in charge. And Dave's like, well, that's not going to happen. I'm going to be in charge. And Pat Broeker was like, well, I'm going to tell everybody all the stuff you've been up to. And David Miscavige told him, you've been transferring large amounts of cash over state lines. I can just turn you in right now.

Marc Headley [01:25:22] We've got that all taped up. And so he basically offered Pat, you just ride off into the sunset and you don't say anything, and we'll never bother you again, and we'll never hear from you again. And that's the last time anybody ever hears of Pat Broeker. His wife, Annie Broeker, tried to escape and go see Pat. And then she was essentially isolated and locked up on the. In the Gilman Hot Springs property until the day she died. And she had escaped. She had at least tried to escape once or twice. And she was recovered and caught mid escape and brought back to the property.

Claire Headley [01:26:01] Yeah. And so Hubbard passed in January 1986. In 1987, by that time, David Miscavige took over the Religious Technology center, which is the. It's also referred as. Referred to as the Inspector General Network. It's essentially intended to be the internal affairs of Scientology or the policing organization. They're the ones who are supposed to have oversight at any level of Scientology. And as we mentioned earlier, it's the highest ecclesiastical organization. So he, David Miscavige comes in, takes that over, and then systematically removes anyone who was loyal to anybody other than him.

John Dehlin [01:26:49] Yeah, that's how power works.

Marc Headley [01:26:52] And the funny thing is that a lot of the people that worked with L. Ron Hubbard throughout, all the way from the 50s all the way up into the 80s, they gotta go. Well, if you look at it in Scientology, L. Ron Hubbard says that 2.5% of the population of Earth are suppressive, period. And then there's a small portion of people that are sort of susceptible to those people.

Claire Headley [01:27:22] 20% are potential trouble sources. And of that 20%, 2.5% are suppressive persons. So basically, to clear the planet, you'd have to clear 80%. And the other 20%, they're just.

Marc Headley [01:27:35] They're just a write off. They're just a write off. They're never going to be cleared. Well, if you look at historically, I would say it's about 97.5% of the people that worked with L. Ron Hubbard have been declared a suppressive person. And even at the headquarters, there is a large percentage of the people that work at the international headquarters of Scientology that used to work with L. Ron Hubbard. And most of them are doing things that they're not public facing or they're not interfacing with public, and they're on a job in the middle of nowhere, isolated until they die. And once they die, then there is no living person that's going to be able to tell you about what Elrorn Hubbard was up to. It's only gonna be the Scientology propaganda that's left.

John Dehlin [01:28:27] So they've all been isolated.

Marc Headley [01:28:29] They've all been isolated or declared suppressives and kicked out of Scientology.

Claire Headley [01:28:33] And even within the executive structure at any time, information is very carefully siloed so that, you know, it's not broad, common knowledge, even within the executive structure of Scientology, as to, let's say, what's going on with this legal case or what's happening with this. You know, it's David Miscavige is the kingpin on top that runs everything, but there's not. There's a very small handful of people who have the same information he has. Shelley Miscavige, by the way, was one of those people.

John Dehlin [01:29:07] So really quickly, it's David Miscavige who declared so many of L. Ron Hubbard's associates as suppressive people. Is that right?

Claire Headley [01:29:15] Well, that is right, yeah.

Marc Headley [01:29:16] During. During the. I want to say during the 80s and the 90s, there was a lot of. Because the Scientology were being investigated by the FBI, and they had been raided in the late 70s, and it was uncovered that they had perpetrated the largest infiltration in the United States government in its history. Hundreds and hundreds of operatives. Irs, FBI, Department of Justice, American Medical association, they had infiltrated organizations all over the United States and in foreign countries as well. They had people everywhere, and they were essentially trying to whitewash Scientology's criminal files, take information out of them, and plant, like, just flowery nonsense stuff in them.

Marc Headley [01:30:06] So when people was like, hey, we got this thing on Scientology, and they pull out the file and be like, oh, these guys are like hippies. Like, who cares? They're not doing. They're not doing anything wrong. And. And that was a project called Operation Snow White that L. Ron Hubbard had basically been running. And when they caught them in the late 70s, they raided them. They raided Scientology facilities in Los Angeles, I think in Washington D.C.

Claire Headley [01:30:33] and subsequently in Canada. There were raids as well.

Marc Headley [01:30:36] Yeah. So basically when that happened, there was a big campaign to flush out any SPs that were within the organization. So there were people that were being declared suppressive just regularly. And if you had any, if you had any, if you discussed something like, oh, I think this is wrong, or immediately pulled in, people would rat each other out in order. Scientology's very dog eat dog within the Sea organization. Stepping on somebody to get another level up is very, very common within the Sea organization. It's very. If you're loyal to David Miscavige and you show your loyalty, then you will be rewarded. If you show dissent or you show disagreement, then that will also be very quickly flushed out.

Claire Headley [01:31:32] Yeah,

John Dehlin [01:31:35] really quickly. So yeah, those of you who follow Scientology will know that David wife Shelley has been missing for decades now. How long?

Claire Headley [01:31:45] Since approximately mid-2005.

John Dehlin [01:31:49] So 20 years.

Claire Headley [01:31:51] Yeah. So publicly in Scientology. That long. And I don't think her family have heard from her since 2014. So it's. She's gotten, become more and more isolated. During the years that Mark and I worked at the headquarters with David Miscavige, Shelley was, was always present. She was at every meeting. She was, she worked as his assistant. So yes, she was his wife, but also she was his deputy, his, you know, right hand man there. At every single meeting, every single. She was copied on every single piece of correspondence he had with anybody.

John Dehlin [01:32:29] And some people think she's dead.

Claire Headley [01:32:32] I don't think she's dead.

Marc Headley [01:32:32] We don't think she's dead. She was at a property in near Big Bear called Running Springs. There's a property, there's another division of the church, which is called the Church of Spiritual Technology. And this group is responsible for taking any of L. Ron Hubbard's recorded or written materials and burning them into gold records. If it's audio and if it's written word, it is etched into metal plates that are put into to hermetically sealed with argon gas. Titanium time capsules, they bore out the entire side of a mountain.

John Dehlin [01:33:14] I was gonna say there's gotta be a mountain involved.

Marc Headley [01:33:17] They bore out the entire side of a mountain and all of these cases with all these materials, it's a long, like hundreds and hundreds of yards long corridor that has tracks that all of these titanium, they're called time capsules. And they're all loaded with all these materials and they're put in these mountains. There's locations in Running Springs, near Big Bear. There's one in New Mexico, in Trementilla, New Mexico. There's one in Washington. I want to say Petrolia, California. Yeah, Petrolia, California. They have all these mountains everywhere and they have a distinct logo that is made in the top of the property so that it can be seen from space. So that if somebody comes from another planet after the planet's been destroyed by nuclear.

Claire Headley [01:34:05] Yeah, that's what I was going to say. In the event of an Earth ending event, the technology of Scientology will still be available. They even had solar powered cassette players.

Marc Headley [01:34:16] And record players.

Claire Headley [01:34:17] Yeah, record players, exactly. To listen to his lectures. Because, of course, if the planet is destroyed, your number one priority is going to be to listen to Elwin Everett lectures in that movie.

John Dehlin [01:34:27] And y' all will not be surprised to learn that the Mormon Church has a huge granite vault in the side of a mountain. And in our case, we put genealogy, you know, there because we believe that again, when Jesus comes again, we'll spend a thousand years all getting baptized for all the people who have died. Baptisms for the dead. But we'll need all these genealogical records to know who to get baptized for. So we have a big granite vault that's wild for record keeping.

Claire Headley [01:34:58] Wait, I just don't understand what you mean by baptism is for the dead.

John Dehlin [01:35:03] So there's a Bible passage that says, except a man be born of the water and of the spirit, he can't enter the kingdom of heaven. And so in early 19th century, that was often interpreted as meaning you had to be baptized by water and then by the gift of the Holy Ghost to be able to go to heaven. And if you don't get baptized by water, you can't go to heaven. But then that begs this question. What do you do for all the millions and billions of people who died before Joseph Smith restored the one true church, or even before Jesus was born?

John Dehlin [01:35:36] How do all those people go to heaven? Or are they all just going to hell? Well, Joseph Smith came up with the bright idea that humans who are living, once they've been baptized into the true church, they need to go to temples and get baptized in a water font proxy for all the people who have ever lived who died without a baptism.

Marc Headley [01:35:59] But their specific ancestors.

John Dehlin [01:36:01] Them, Anyone, Anyone. Anyone who was anyone who was in membership.

Claire Headley [01:36:09] That sounds a equivalent to trying to clear the planet statistically.

Marc Headley [01:36:12] No, no, no, no, no, no.

John Dehlin [01:36:14] And it's not just anyone who wasn't baptized Christian, anyone who wasn't baptized Mormon. So all the Catholics and all the Baptists, they all have to get re baptized Too. And not just all the ones living now, but all the ones who've ever lived or who will ever live. Wow. So Mormons are going to spend a thousand years with Jesus in the millennium, just constantly getting baptized in temples for dead people.

Life Inside the Sea Org Day to Day

Marc Headley [01:36:38] Well, they have a similar thing in sc. We have to clear the planet. And there is the belief, while there is the belief in Scientology, that you had a prior life, and the things that you did in that life will affect what's happening in this life. If you were, let's say, a Scientologist in your last life, and you went clear when Hubbard was around, if you remembered in this life that you were clear in the last life life, then you were called a last lifetime clear.

Marc Headley [01:37:12] And because there had been so many generations of Scientologists, this was a thing. As soon as David Miscavige took over, he canceled all of that. So Scientology, every few generations, they have to wipe the slate on clearing the planet because they lost all those people that were clear that have now passed away, and they have to restart.

Marc Headley [01:37:35] So the clear the planet is. It's inherently flawed by math because, well, to start off, they can't even clear the zip code that they operate in. But besides that fact, every 20 or 30 years, they're wiping out all the old Scientologists and all the new ones. They have to have new ones to then clear. So whenever we're talking with Scientologists, because that's all they ever talk about, about usually clear the planet. Clear the planet. Clear the planet.

John Dehlin [01:38:02] They can't even clear the Scientologists.

Marc Headley [01:38:04] Yeah, you can't even get the people that are in Scientology clear. How are you going to clear the planet?

John Dehlin [01:38:10] Yeah, yeah.

Marc Headley [01:38:10] And so it's sort of this. It's. Whenever you're talking with a Scientologist, they. They have. They've been trained for years, even, sometimes even decades on how to respond to criticism of Scientology, but as soon as you start using magic math, then they kind of. They. They start glitching, like, oh, well, you're like, yeah, it's. It's mathematically impossible for you to clear the planet.

John Dehlin [01:38:38] Bad news. They're gonna. They're gonna keep believing anyway, regardless.

Claire Headley [01:38:41] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:38:42] This reminds me of the Jehovah's Witnesses. They have that teaching that 144,000 are gonna, like, make it, you know, into whatever type of salvation they do. But they've had so many Jehovah's Witnesses now for over 100 years. They've well exceeded. Exceeded the number of people promised or told they'd be in the 144,000. So they have to keep excluding people or redefining what it means.

Marc Headley [01:39:03] Do they have a list?

John Dehlin [01:39:04] They used to. They used to have a list.

Marc Headley [01:39:06] They did.

John Dehlin [01:39:06] But, you know, like. Like. Like with David Miscavige, at some point the math stops adding up and starts to become problematic. So they have to get rid of lists or redefine things. I forget.

Claire Headley [01:39:17] But, yeah. By now, there's no question in my mind. There are far more. More former Scientologists than there are actual Scientologists in today's world.

John Dehlin [01:39:25] For sure.

Claire Headley [01:39:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:39:26] Okay, well, that's a good background. That's at least five minutes, right?

Marc Headley [01:39:33] Six minutes.

Claire Headley [01:39:34] Glad we took that five minutes.

John Dehlin [01:39:36] Thanks. That's really fascinating, and I think it's fun to do the parallels. Someone really should do either a YouTube video or a book on the parallels between Joseph Smith and.

Marc Headley [01:39:47] Well, I think by the time we're done, we will. Somebody could just clip this.

John Dehlin [01:39:51] Yeah. Okay. All right, Claire.

Claire Headley [01:39:55] It is fascinating to see the parallels.

John Dehlin [01:39:57] Absolutely.

Claire Headley [01:39:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:39:59] And I'm sure there's more. All right, Claire, back to you. So you're born into this situation in what year?

Claire Headley [01:40:07] 1975.

John Dehlin [01:40:09] So you're born while L. Ron Hubbard is still alive?

Claire Headley [01:40:12] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:40:12] And your parents were already members?

Claire Headley [01:40:15] Yes. My mom and dad were both staff members at the Manchester Org in England. My mom read Dianetics while she was pregnant with me. She actually named me after the state of clear. Clear is French for clear. Oh, interesting. I didn't even tell Mark that until a couple of years ago. It was so embarrassing.

Marc Headley [01:40:35] I was just like, say what? You're like, one more thing you have to clear other. Like, that's so.

Claire Headley [01:40:44] Yeah, but. Yeah, so my dad quit very quickly, became disillusioned with Scientology, and decided he wanted nothing more to do with it. So my first experience with disconnection was when I was 3. My mom divorced my dad, and I've had. No. Never had contact with him since that. Since that time, she always told me the narrative that, well, he cheated on her and he's not a good person. But since I've gotten out of Scientology, I've found that. That the facts from his family, who we are in touch with, they're like, yeah, no, it was all about Scientology

John Dehlin [01:41:27] passed away before you.

Claire Headley [01:41:28] No, no, he's still alive. Yeah, yeah, he's still alive. I. I'm. I'm in contact with all my aunts and uncles. He's also the black sheep of his family, allegedly. So there's more there than me. See, I did reach out to him. But wasn't meant to be.

John Dehlin [01:41:42] Yeah, yeah.

Claire Headley [01:41:43] But nonetheless, so. So my mom and dad are divorced. I'm three now. My mom is just becoming more and more involved in Scientology. She was very fanatical from the get go. So she had this dream that she wanted to go to the ship and work with L. Ron Hubbard as a messenger. Anyhow, so shortly after my fourth birthday, she signed a billion year contract and we moved to Saint Hill, which is the headquarters in England. At that point, I was moved into what's referred to as the Cadet organization, where children of Sea Org members at that time were groomed and trained in Scientology with the intention of then carrying out their own billion year contract.

John Dehlin [01:42:30] So your mom was in the Sea Org?

Claire Headley [01:42:32] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:42:33] When she signed the billion year contract?

Claire Headley [01:42:34] Well, she signed the billion year contract and then joined the Sea Org institution.

John Dehlin [01:42:38] Okay, so then you were born as a Sea Org. I mean, you were a Sea Org

Claire Headley [01:42:42] kid from the age of four. Yes. Until age 10. And the cadet Organization is. Best way I've been able to find to describe it, that people can relate to is it's like Lord of the Flies meets orphanage meets Nazi Youth in that from the moment you enter the Cadet organization, the schedule is such that if I saw my mom two hours a week, I was lucky. That was a good week.

John Dehlin [01:43:10] So they separate the kids from the parents.

Claire Headley [01:43:13] Yes. And then not only that, but they have the children run themselves. So There was maybe one or two adults for 40 to 50 kids. The kids age ranging in age from 6 weeks old to 14 or 15, by which age they would then start on their own billion year contract. But Hubbard had a policy. At that time, children were allowed in the Sea Organization, but Hubbard's policy was that they were allowed at most, best case scenario, six weeks maternity leave. And then their kids would be put. Put into the newborn babies would be put into the nursery, and then by the age of four, being a part of the Cadet organization.

John Dehlin [01:43:55] And was this for you all on a boat or not?

Claire Headley [01:43:58] Is it a building? No, this was at Saint Hill in England.

John Dehlin [01:44:01] So you could be in the Sea Org but not at sea.

Claire Headley [01:44:03] That's right.

John Dehlin [01:44:04] Okay.

Claire Headley [01:44:04] Yes, okay. Yes, exactly.

Marc Headley [01:44:07] So it's a good distinction.

Claire Headley [01:44:09] It is a good distinction.

Marc Headley [01:44:09] There's only one distinction, place in the Sea Organization where you're actually at sea, and that's on. They have a cruise ship in the Caribbean.

John Dehlin [01:44:16] It's one cruise ship. Right.

Marc Headley [01:44:19] It started out as multiple boats in the ocean, and then when they moved to land, the boats were gotten rid of. And then in the 80s they bought this cruise ship that used to be a ferry or a cow transporter, and they turned it into a little cruise ship. If you see it next to any other cruise ship ship, it looks like

Claire Headley [01:44:39] a tugboat, but holds about 300 people, I think.

John Dehlin [01:44:42] Oh, so there's no more than 300 people actually at sea in Scientology.

Marc Headley [01:44:46] In the Sea organization.

John Dehlin [01:44:47] I did not know that.

Marc Headley [01:44:48] There's 5,000 Sea Org members probably around the world between all their facilities. And there's about 150 that work on that one ship.

Claire Headley [01:44:58] Yeah, because the 300 capacity is max capacity. So that includes the staff and the public.

Marc Headley [01:45:04] The people that are coming there to pay to go there and do scientists, Scientology counseling or courses are part of that maximum amount of people.

John Dehlin [01:45:13] But it's not that the top leadership is on that boat.

Claire Headley [01:45:16] Oh, no, no. Definitely not.

John Dehlin [01:45:17] Okay, that's good to know. I didn't realize that, but L. Ron Hubbard was on a boat.

Claire Headley [01:45:21] He was for many years. There were a few different ships that he was on, but I think for the most part, he was on the Apollo. But that was at the time that the Sea Organization was first created and before it moved to land as.

John Dehlin [01:45:35] And he was running from the law. He was kind of a fugitive, right?

Claire Headley [01:45:37] Completely.

Marc Headley [01:45:38] I mean, there's stories from people that worked on the Apollo. We know there's a channel on YouTube called Peeling the Onion. It's with a guy named Mark Fisher and a woman named Janice Grady. And Janice Grady was a messenger for Hubbard from. I think she started when she was, like, in early teens or like, 9 or 10, and she was a messenger, and she worked with him on this

Claire Headley [01:46:01] ship, which, by the way, bears mentioning. Shelley Miscavige also worked on that ship from about the age of 11. Her parents were not on the ship. She was just there with L. Ron

John Dehlin [01:46:12] Hubbard as a messenger for alienation.

Marc Headley [01:46:16] She tells stories of they. Sometimes they left port with the locals and police and, like, the people of the port throwing rocks at the ship and try and getting them, like, get out of our town.

Claire Headley [01:46:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:46:30] Okay, that's good. That's good to know. So. And by the way. Yeah. Joseph Smith and L. Ron Hubbard were both fugitives from the law. So you were in the Sea Org, as your mom was in the Sea Org. You were a Sea Org kid, but you were separated from your mom, and it was Lord of the Flies, plus Hitler used Hitler Youth plus orphanage.

Claire Headley [01:46:49] So not a great time. No, not at all.

John Dehlin [01:46:51] Do you have a. What are your memories?

Claire Headley [01:46:55] So A Day in the Life of a Canadian at was pretty Brutal. It was. You know, there was my. Our parents had no money. We barely ever saw them. We. There was a girl's dorm and a boy's dorm, so we weren't even allowed to sleep in the same room with our families.

Claire Headley [01:47:19] And in my case, it was only my mother. She was a single mom by now. And so, yeah, there was a lot of heavy manual labor. We would go to the local school because our parents couldn't afford to send us to Scientology school. So we would constantly get teased and called sino. And we were often had ratty clothes and poor hygiene and just a general lack of care.

Claire Headley [01:47:49] And within the Cadet Org, it was run just like any Scientology organization. So we each had posts assigned. We were like. We. We were grouped into groups of six kids. So you had a kid in charge of another five or six kids. And we were essentially parented by checklists as, you know, lists of get up, make your bed, eat breakfast, go to school, study Scientology, do what they call Chinese school, which is chanting L100 precepts over and over again until you know them verbatim. Like, I will never be able to get those things out of my head.

John Dehlin [01:48:32] An example just. It would be traumatizing to. No pressure if you don't.

Claire Headley [01:48:37] Yeah. Definition of a team. A team has a tendency to know what the other team members are doing and thinking and coordinate thereby and thereby with. And that is the definition of a team. It is people who cooperate, one with another, to push forward a common purpose, and they normally get along great.

Claire Headley [01:48:52] Interesting. That's a. That's a relatively benign one. Keeping Scientology working. One, having the technology. Two, knowing the technology. Three, knowing it is correct. Four, teaching correctly the correct technology. Five, applying the technology. Six, seeing that the technology is correctly applied, and I could keep going on. So the idea is, when you're going over these things verbatim over and over again, are you in, like, a classroom setting? Is this. As you're working, you're standing in a crowd in front of a big sheet that has it written out, and you have a person with a pointer who will chant it, and they'll say, keeping Scientology working. What is it?

Claire Headley [01:49:31] And the whole group, in unison, will chant, like, at the top of their lungs or not the top of their lungs. So it does remind me of shouting youth. Yeah, but. Yeah, it's that. Exactly. That's what I'm saying.

Claire Headley [01:49:43] That's why I started including that reference, because the indoctrination in Scientology, like, we're talking. In my case, I was four when I started learning the language of Scientology. I didn't even have a grasp of the English language. So when you're learning the language of Scientology before even understanding any having real world parallels, it's really challenging to walk that back. Yes. I am so, so sorry. We're here today, right?

Marc Headley [01:50:15] Yeah.

Claire Headley [01:50:15] So, you know, it has a good ending. Every day is a blessing of freedom and love and, you know, making our own choices. So it, you know. Yeah.

Marc Headley [01:50:25] Were you.

John Dehlin [01:50:26] Were you protected from abuse? I guess there's psychological abuse, physical abuse, sexual abuse.

Claire Headley [01:50:30] None of that. I was not protected from any of that.

John Dehlin [01:50:33] So do kids raised in Scientology experiments a lot of abuse?

Claire Headley [01:50:38] Very definitely. Do they abuse? Is that the Lord of the Flies abusing each other like older kids abusing us younger kids was very common. And because of the snitch culture, when you translate that into a Lord of the Flies scenario, you have no recourse. And not only that, Scientology believes that, you know, as Mark was referencing the Overts and the Withholders, which is what they call transgressions, they have the overt motivator sequence. So if I say, hey, Billy punched me, then I deserved that, and that means that I've committed transgressions. And the only reason Billy punched me is because I pulled it in and it was my fault. So it's the ultimate victim shaming as well.

Marc Headley [01:51:23] In Scientology, the victim is always guilty, no matter who, because they're a victim, and they have a thing called the tone scale, and victim is way, way down at the bottom of the tone scale. So if something happens, are these vibrations

John Dehlin [01:51:38] when they say tone?

Marc Headley [01:51:39] No, it's more like an emotional tone, like anger, happiness, cheerfulness.

Claire Headley [01:51:45] Yeah, it's a signed digit. So the highest is 40.0. It goes down to zero, which is body death. And minus 40.0 is total failure.

Marc Headley [01:51:55] Yes. So there's tones below body death that you could be exhibiting while alive.

John Dehlin [01:52:03] It's insidiously darkly smart to make any mistake. Any member makes the fault of the victim, because then the organization's never responsible for anything.

Claire Headley [01:52:15] Exactly.

Marc Headley [01:52:15] It's the Scientology's get out of jail free card is, hey, this happened to me. Well, what did you do?

John Dehlin [01:52:21] Yeah, no, it's called blame reversal.

Claire Headley [01:52:23] Yes. And eventually, the member, the. The person who's been indoctrinated in all this, they are, for all intents and purposes, doing the work themselves. Yes. Scientology has reinforced that with physical and control mechanisms that keep you in. But really, you're going, oh, no. I had a critical thought. I want to leave. Oh, I can't do that. And you're doing the work yourself. That's great.

Marc Headley [01:52:48] I watched another episode that you did, and you mentioned something I think it's called, I want to say scripulosity.

John Dehlin [01:52:55] Yeah. Religious ocd, basically.

Marc Headley [01:52:58] Yeah. In Scientology, if you're a dedicated Scientologist, you have that all day, every day. You can't do anything in your life and not be thinking, well, where is this guy on the tone scale? And where is his this? And you look through everything in your life, your business, your family, your personal relationship, Everything is through that Scientology lens.

Claire Headley [01:53:22] Yes. In fact, you reminded me now, there's not the language of, oh, I'm feeling upset. It's like, oh, he's griefy. Grief is a tone level on the tone scale, or he's being really one. One that's covert hostility, which is depicted as a person who's smiling at you while holding a dagger behind their back. Like, low, lower. A lower. Negative tone on the tone scale. The language is so oriented around the beliefs, you know, the. And the scriptures. Yeah.

Marc Headley [01:53:54] Yeah. And Scientology is a fundamentalist belief system. So you can't be 25% a Scientology. You can't be 70. You can't be 90%. You're either 100% or you're not a Scientologist. In fact, so that. That scrupulosity thing, when you. When you were talking about that, that really resonated with me as like, oh, you can't be in Scientology if you're a requirement. You have to be that.

Claire Headley [01:54:21] Yeah. In fact, in Keeping Scientology working, series number one, which is a policy every Scientologist reads multiple times. It's at the beginning of every single course. Hubbard says, we'd rather have you dead than incapable.

Marc Headley [01:54:38] He says, scientology is. It's rough and tumble, and only the tigers survive, and even they have a rough go at it.

John Dehlin [01:54:48] Yeah. But I mean. And I don't mean to be apologizing for the abuse there. Does it produce very resilient, capable, hardworking, dedicated people or not?

Claire Headley [01:55:03] I think my answer to that is it produces very damaged people. And I've thought about that, and my perspective on that, and my answer to that has changed through my own recovery therapy, reading books and so forth. Because, unfortunately, when someone gets out of Scientology, they're not. They're very often have a lot of trauma and a lot of struggle. So in our case, I believe the catalyst that led to our success. Success was the fact of escaping and the motive and that motivation. I don't attribute us being successful to, you know, 100 plus hours work week. I do no education. I do. You do?

Marc Headley [01:55:49] Well, I, I, I. My take on it. My take on it is a little different that in Scientology and specifically in the C. Organization, if you're just a Scientology that lives at your house and you pay to do courses and counseling, not the same kick, not the same situation. But in the Sea Organization and specifically at the Sea Organization at its highest levels, at the international headquarters, they beat the wimp out of you. You cannot work there if you get tired, if you can't work till 8

John Dehlin [01:56:25] o' clock in the morning, they make you tough.

Marc Headley [01:56:26] Till midnight, they make you tough.

John Dehlin [01:56:27] Result.

Marc Headley [01:56:28] But I won't say they make you tough, but they do beat the wimp out of you. You are. Some people become a robot.

Claire Headley [01:56:38] Yeah.

Marc Headley [01:56:38] So they basically are just an automaton. They just do what they're told. They do that. They do this. They don't complain. There's no emotions. That's the thing. Maybe it's. They don't beat the wimp out of you. They beat the emotion out of you.

John Dehlin [01:56:52] So they beat the you. They beat the you out of you.

Marc Headley [01:56:54] They beat the you out of you. And so if you can't find you after that, then a lot of people get broken. And that. And that's the thing that happens. They either make you stronger and more resilient, and if you can, if you, if that you is still in there, then you can find your way out of it.

John Dehlin [01:57:15] Yeah.

Claire Headley [01:57:15] Yeah. Stronger as a result of abuse, not stronger as a result of something that works. Yeah. You either figure out how to power through, and that's very, very hard.

Marc Headley [01:57:27] But I'd say 50, 50 on. There's 50% of the people get broken and 50% of the people, they. And also they might. Even the 50% that become successful, it might still be a little bit broken.

John Dehlin [01:57:42] That's right.

Marc Headley [01:57:43] Sure.

Claire Headley [01:57:43] It's like they're coping.

Marc Headley [01:57:45] Exactly.

Claire Headley [01:57:46] Successful. We would say that their coping shows up in socially. Like where socially we're like, oh, we really admire that.

Marc Headley [01:57:54] Yeah.

Claire Headley [01:57:55] For example, you know, really coping in the way of never resting, overworking as a result. Or like there are some. It feels like socially approved of ways of coping. That's still psychologically.

Marc Headley [01:58:10] Yeah.

Claire Headley [01:58:10] And it's not healthy. Yeah.

Marc Headley [01:58:12] Even we did actually sort of. We had to reintegrate because we never really lived outside of that world. But even the reintegration was, how do we not work till midnight every night?

Claire Headley [01:58:29] Yeah. My mom still gets frustrated with me because I have a terrible habit of taking on way more than I can comfortably hand. And it's and it's an. It is a flaw. It's not something that I realize, like, oh, yeah, let me just work myself to death. He gets very, very frustrated, you know, which there's no reason to. And he's trying to protect me and make me realize that, like, hey, this is not a. This is not a path to success.

Claire Headley [01:58:58] Or even like, as a child, you're experiencing so, you know, aggressive so much, sort of not just with your schedule, but, you know, emotionally and all those things. And so later on, what looks like self discipline actually in your mind is a lot of self. Aggressive thoughts. Completely. But no one knows and it can look so. And that's why it's so problematic when you're talking about what a successful person or a resilient person. Completely. Yeah, completely. And the irony is that fast forward to which. And I can give you a few examples of some extreme things that happened in the cadet org that were just.

Claire Headley [01:59:40] I mean, I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy, honestly. But then fast forward to our lawsuit. And my mother wrote me a letter from Scientology headquarters in which she said, well, you were in the SEA organization as a child, so. So I thought you knew how bad it was.

Claire Headley [01:59:59] And again, it's blaming me for, you know, not. I never told her many of the things that happened to me as a child because I knew. I knew that that victim blaming mechanism would break me as a person. And so I prefer to just keep my mouth shut and power through than say, hey, this kid, what he did was abuse. It's not. Okay. I could not ever say that. That, and I didn't for many, many years. And so, yeah.

Marc Headley [02:00:29] Anyway, let me really quick ask.

John Dehlin [02:00:31] Did.

Claire Headley [02:00:31] Did.

John Dehlin [02:00:32] Would someone who is sexually abused be blamed as being the reason why they were sexually abused?

Claire Headley [02:00:38] Very definitely. Yes.

John Dehlin [02:00:39] Okay, so that. That's. That would be an extreme example, but that was applicable.

Claire Headley [02:00:43] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:00:44] Okay. Okay, let's keep going, Claire, with your story. So.

Claire's Childhood Experiences of Hardship

Claire Headley [02:00:48] Yep. So I lived in a dorm, you know, it was.

John Dehlin [02:00:51] Was.

Claire Headley [02:00:52] I can give a couple of examples, but I went to the local school.

Marc Headley [02:00:58] It was about when you broke all your.

Claire Headley [02:01:01] Broke my collarbone. Yeah. So when I was approximately seven years old, I was sleeping in a bunk bed with a friend of mine. We had no play dates, no sleepovers, all of that. So we would. That was our only version of like, oh, let's have a sleepover in my bunk bed. And I fell out.

Claire Headley [02:01:19] Someone had left wooden planks on the floor. So I cut open my head, broke my collarbone. But my mentality in the cadet organization was the only normal part of my life was going to school, because it was a public school, so it was my only string to the outside world. And I loved school, and I was doing really, really well. I was, despite everything, a star student. I loved the teacher.

Claire Headley [02:01:47] And so I went to school anyway with a broken collarbone and my head cut open. And of course, I could not. I mean, it was excruciatingly painful. Anytime I would move my arm, I would start crying. So the teacher kind of had me first sit by her desk. Then she noticed my head cut open.

Claire Headley [02:02:05] The headmistress then called me into her office at lunchtime, and it didn't occur to me until many years later that she obviously saw signs of abuse and neglect. And so she asked me, well, what happened? And I never said anything. I was just like, oh, I fell out of bed. Never mentioned the fact that I was living in a dorm and I landed on wood planks, because, again, already by that age, I had been programmed to never say anything bad about Scientology, ever, under any circumstances that would cause any kind of negativity on that. So my mom came to pick me up, went to the hospital.

Claire Headley [02:02:43] I was not allowed to be given any drugs, even though the doctor suggested it. And, yeah, so that was one example. Another example was in the C Organization, members are not allowed to have any form of sexual activity outside of marriage. My mother was single, so she was dating another member of the C organization, and they engaged in sexual intercourse, for which she was then assigned to the rehabilitation Project Force when I was 6.

Claire Headley [02:03:17] So I was not allowed to know where she was or talk to her for months. While she was off on that program, she was doing heavy construction at the St Hill Castle. She ended up getting hit in the head by a brick, rushed to hospital.

Claire Headley [02:03:33] I was then trained on how to do touch Assists deliver Touch Assists Assist technology developed by L. Ron Hubbard of how to nurse someone back to health after an injury or illness. There are several different kinds of assists, but touch assist is the primary one. It's look, feel my finger, feel my finger, feel my finger over and over. There's an exact process. So I was trained on how to do those.

Marc Headley [02:04:00] Not creepy at all. Someone touching somebody else with their finger all over their place body saying, feel my finger.

Claire Headley [02:04:06] Yeah. And so I hadn't seen my mother in months. She got hit in the head, and I'm. I hate to say it, but I was just grateful to be able to see her again, even if I had to do these creepy touches on her. Yeah. Another time, she escaped and left me Behind. Anyway, it was. It was a. A complete chaotic, chaotic train wreck. Yes. And. And very rarely did I get to see any of her family who are not in Scientology. When I was seven to eight, she used to put me on a train in London to go visit my grandmother in Manchester. So it was like a four hour train with like 20 stops. She would just ask some family to keep an eye on me, you know, this was like, not that long after the Yorkshire Ripper serial killer and various other things that was going on. So in. It's. I'm.

Marc Headley [02:05:01] She also used to hitchhike with you a lot?

Claire Headley [02:05:03] Yeah, yeah, she. We hitchhiked a few times. And then my grandmother got really mad. That was during the time of the Yorkshire Ripper in England. Serial killer killing hitchhikers. But anyway, my grandmother put a stop to that. But nonetheless, because my mom had to work all the time. Another element was that starting at around the age of six or seven, I don't exactly remember, but all of the children in the cadet organization were required to sign billion year contracts. So I eventually started my own billion year contract at 16, but I signed my first one when I was 6 or 7, another one when I was 10, another one when I was 12, another one when I was 13.

Claire Headley [02:05:46] Multiple contracts. Wow. Okay. I have a question for you. Okay, so you're. So I'm gonna ask you, like, in looking back, maybe now, do you. It feels like you're in survival mode for years. That's what it feels like when you're kind of describing this experience.

Claire Headley [02:06:05] So I'm curious if you can remember if you experienced it in a way where you were like, dysregulated all the time? Are you just. Just perceiving? Are you stressed? Are you dissociating? Are you disconnected from your. Like, how. I guess I'm trying to get at, like, how did you cope with this level of severity when it comes to just a reality? Like, did you have moments where you're like. Like this. Why is everything so hard? Like, this is just like life or death all the time, feeling that way, or did you get numbed out and dissociated? No, I did not. I was all. Very commonly in my childhood, I just cried all the time.

Claire Headley [02:06:53] As an example. So my mom's a member of the Sea Organization. She would get two hours once a week to do her laundry and clean her room. And that was. You know, it's probably a bad analogy, but it's extreme enough to be relevant in this case. It was like a drug addict getting it hit but the hit is time with my mom and safety.

Claire Headley [02:07:17] Exactly. And so every week I remember I would have to write a completed staff work to say it's Saturday or Sunday. I can't remember which day it was. But can I please go into work with my mom? And I'll help and I'll work there. It would always get disapproved. No, you got to be here at Stonelands, which is where we live. Do it chores and manual labor. And I would go into hysterical crying. Like crying. Crying. Crying could not stop. Like headache throbbing.

Claire Headley [02:07:48] Just a mess. Because it was a constant battle for any time with my mother. And being at a public school, I obviously knew that was not normal, relevant to what I saw from my friends. And the only thing I ever wanted was was a normal life like we live now with our kids. But I couldn't even say that because that would be me. I'm trying to leave. Or I'm trying to drag my mother out from the sea organization. That would make me a suppressive. That's right. Yeah. Yeah.

Marc Headley [02:08:23] Didn't you at one point, your mom then started a relationship, and then that's how she ended up leaving the sea org. And then. Was she going to leave you there?

Claire Headley [02:08:35] Yeah. So she. Again, it's very strict relationship rules within the sea organization. She began a relationship with the gentleman who's now my stepfather, but he was not a member of the c. Organization, so it gets a little complicated. But she had to have special approval to even marry him.

Marc Headley [02:08:59] They don't allow this now.

Claire Headley [02:09:01] No, they do not. They do not. And even talking about stress, like, the first time she went on a date with him, she left the property where we lived. And I woke up the next morning and went to her room, and she wasn't there. She hadn't been there all night. And so I panicked. I'm like, oh, my gosh, where's my mother? She's my only human in this alien world that I live in. And so. So I ran around and I ran down to the mess hall looking for her. I found her friend, and I was like, oh, she didn't come home last night. Anyway, I go back up and factor in my mother had already been assigned to the rehabilitation project force with a previous boyfriend for having an affair with him outside of marriage.

Claire Headley [02:09:45] So now I go up to my mom's room and she's there all of a sudden. And I'm like. Like, I've been looking for you. You didn't come home last night. She's like, yes, I did. I was in the shower. She was lying. She, many years later apologized for lying, but she made me go explain to the people that I talked to that she was there and cover for her and blamed me for getting. Potentially getting her in a lot of trouble. Anyway, it was just so.

Claire Headley [02:10:14] Yeah, layer upon layer of really bad, you know, child abuse, child neglect, Scientology. Stressed over the importance of actual education. We were required to study Scientology every day after school. So, yeah, it was a constant stress factor that was really hard to navigate and really hard to ever kind of find a, you know, a balance. Yeah, I can see that.

John Dehlin [02:10:48] And you mentioned crying a lot and being sad. Was there a part of you that was into it or grateful for it or committed to it where you were also feeling like you were sacrificing or doing what was right or learning the truth? In other words, were they successfully compartmentalizing you to also feel like it was good what you were doing, even though you were sad and missed your mom and being abused?

Claire Headley [02:11:16] Good question. In the years that I was in the cadet organization, no. It was so miserable.

John Dehlin [02:11:22] You just hated it.

Claire Headley [02:11:23] I just hated it. I wanted a normal life. I wanted to figure out a way to get out of that life where it can. Where they. You know, the constant pressure was such that it became evident to me at some point that this was the path of least resistance. And you find a way to acclimate, to go, okay, well, then I may as well find something good or at least commit myself to doing this. So by the age of 13, I had decided, okay, well, maybe if I become an auditor and a counselor, then I can help people. And if that's. If this is the only way to help people, then, you know, so it was more of a compromise in my mind of a way to not lose my family and not be a bad person in their eyes.

Claire Headley [02:12:12] So I would never say that I was, like, hardcore fanatical, but I was definitely, from a very young age, programmed to be a very good rule follower. Mark would absolutely agree with that. He was always the rebel. And. And that was where our relationship was such a breath of fresh air. Like, wow, how does he not give any shits about this?

Claire Headley [02:12:41] But it does make sense, given that to me. What you're describing is you were born into a really unsafe, chaotic experience of the world. And so it totally makes sense. Sense to me that at some point, you become very cognizant of, like, okay, if this is what the world is and this is what I have to work with, how do I. With what I have as a child, literally to work with. How can I create safety? How can I control what I can control?

Claire Headley [02:13:17] To at least have a little more of, you know. Yes, that hits the nail on the head. Literally. It was like, okay, the only way to succeed in this environment is to embrace it. Even though, you know, that was not my goal, not my dreams. I wanted to be a teacher. I wanted to go to Oxford University. I had this whole game plan that included, ironically, from when I was, like, 6 or 7, I was like, I will join the SEA organization when I'm 45 years old, because by then I will have had a boy and a girl, and my life will be over because I'll be 45.

Claire Headley [02:13:56] You know, that's a good plan. But that plan got torpedoed because of the environment I was in. And so, yes, it was. The only way to survive was to embrace it and figure out. I just gave up at some point that I had any path out.

John Dehlin [02:14:17] So in those early teen years, in your mind, were you ever like, this isn't true. I don't believe this. But I just. I'm basically in prison. Did you allow yourself to even question?

Claire Headley [02:14:28] I did not. Okay. Questioning had already been broken much, much earlier than that.

John Dehlin [02:14:35] Okay.

Claire Headley [02:14:36] Yeah. Because it was dangerous. And, like, I had. You know, I'd already lost my dad, so I couldn't lose my mom, too. And I'd seen my friends get in trouble for rebelling. So the only path that I saw as a child was to dive in. And I did have an. When I was 13, I did try to rebel a little bit. Unfortunately, that didn't go well at all and ended up just driving me further into Scientology. But I was already, by that point, in a Scientology school and very firmly ensconced in an environment that completely depended on Scientology. My mother, my friends, all of that was absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:15:24] Random question. Why do you have no British accent at all?

Claire Headley [02:15:27] Oh, yeah, Great question. So I always wanted to move to America. I always wanted an American accent. Americans think that the English accent is cool. Well, conversely, English people think the American accent is super cool.

John Dehlin [02:15:42] I never heard that before.

Claire Headley [02:15:43] Oh, no.

John Dehlin [02:15:44] I guess I've never heard of Brit that would admit that. Maybe.

Claire Headley [02:15:46] Well, yeah. Well, I'm just being honest. Like, kids would come to Saint Hill from America, and we would always be like, say something. Say something. So I had a dream to become an American and get an American accent. My family moved to the US when I was 13, and I was told that I was too old to lose the accent. And in fact, when Mark and I got married, I was 17. He was 19. And I still had a British accent at that time. But you know what's funny?

Claire Headley [02:16:18] Not to credit Scientology with anything where credit is not due, because Scientology did not create the dictionary. However, the barriers to study the misunderstood word, lack of mass, the skipped gradient, the misunderstood word means that any Scientologist in studying Scientology spends a lot of time in the dictionary. Well, wouldn't you know it? One day I have an American dictionary and I'm sitting. Somebody is doing word clearing with me where you have to read stuff out and so forth. And the word was walk. W, A L, K. You walk down the street. So I would always say that walk.

Claire Headley [02:16:57] And this person was an American. And I looked at the pronunciation key in the American dictionary and it said wok. And I was like, wok. He's like, you're saying it right. Anyway, it's a long story to just explain that the final barriers to my English accent were broken by learning to use an American dictionary, which told me how to say that even when my brain couldn't figure it out. So I so thoroughly lost my English accent that nobody believes I'm from England anymore.

John Dehlin [02:17:30] And I mean, are you even able to.

Claire Headley [02:17:33] I'm not.

Marc Headley [02:17:33] She's not even. When we go. We've been to England many times with

John Dehlin [02:17:37] the kids, you don't drop into it.

Marc Headley [02:17:39] No, she cannot understand.

Claire Headley [02:17:41] There's about five words. There's about five or six words. Tor. Sixth.

John Dehlin [02:17:49] And aluminium.

Claire Headley [02:17:51] Yeah, whatever.

John Dehlin [02:17:52] Insulation.

Claire Headley [02:17:54] Mark always used to give me a really hard time about my accent. I think now he regrets having done that.

Marc Headley [02:17:58] I do, I do. She used to call me mock. So she would say, mark, and I'd say, you know, there's an. There's an R in Mark. Most people say mark.

Claire Headley [02:18:09] Mark.

Marc Headley [02:18:10] Whenever she would say boot or the bin or I would say would. Water, butter, cutlery. I would just say that every single time. She would say, I would think it's in the boot of the car. I'd go, water, butter, cutlery.

Claire Headley [02:18:24] I do think it's interesting, though, because when we talk about cults or high control, high demand religions, this idea of conditioning. Right. And how a conditioned self is created, which is very different than a self that we, you know, organically create as we grow. It's just a completely different thing, right? Yes. But it makes it so clear to what level of detail you were conditioned. Yes. That actually the way you spoke this, like the root of where you were born and where your story began, it even, you know, it eliminated that.

Marc Headley [02:19:05] Right.

Claire Headley [02:19:06] Like, it's kind of chameleon. In nature. A little bit. Bit. Yeah, I know. I've thought about that a lot because I have been asked that a lot. Like. Like, why does she not have a British accent? Yeah.

Becoming an Auditor and Using the E-Meter

John Dehlin [02:19:19] So you say around 13, you decide to switch from one test to another. What was the main.

Claire Headley [02:19:28] I was. So I. At 13, I was still living in England, and I was trying to rebel and get away from it.

John Dehlin [02:19:34] Yeah.

Claire Headley [02:19:35] And it didn't work out well. I got in a lot of trouble with my parents. I was assigned lower conditions, which is ethics. Conditions for betrayal after trust. Condition of treason. Find out who you are. Oh, no. Find out that you are. That's the formula for treason. Find out that you are. Condition of enemy is find out who you really are. There's. It's. It's part of. It's a whole nother segment of the ethics technology of conditions of existence. You're either doing well and contributing to the group, or you're betraying it.

John Dehlin [02:20:08] And, yeah, this reminds me, many religions have to make you sick so they can then offer themselves up as the cure. And it sounds like that's very similar.

Claire Headley [02:20:20] Very, very similar.

John Dehlin [02:20:22] Okay.

Claire Headley [02:20:22] One of the lower conditions is also the condition of doubt. So, again, it's another control mechanism where if you're thinking of leaving Scientology, that means you're in a lowered state of existence, and there's a formula to fix that, which is the doubt formula.

Marc Headley [02:20:38] And the formula for that, for doubt, is find out who you are.

Claire Headley [02:20:43] No, that's enemy.

Marc Headley [02:20:43] Oh, enemy.

Claire Headley [02:20:44] Yes. Yeah. Doubt is where you basically do this whole evaluation of the good guys versus the bad guys. And then. And then. So you say, what's good about this, this, and this, and what's bad about this, this, and this, and then make a decision as to which group you're going to join, which group should be

Marc Headley [02:21:04] helped or supported, and which group should be rejected.

Claire Headley [02:21:07] And then you have to announce the fact publicly to both sides.

Marc Headley [02:21:11] But the greatest thing is that you can never do a doubt condition in Scientology, where Scientology is the group that should be rejected. It's always the way it's worded and the way it's engineered is. It's. If you're thinking, oh, I need to leave Scientology, if you do this, you will decide that you should stay in Scientology.

Claire Headley [02:21:32] In fact, there's even a policy that if you decide that Scientology is the bad group, there's a policy to fix that, and it's called hung up at doubt. That means if you're making the wrong decision, you have to go through interrogations and other steps to handle being hung up at doubt.

John Dehlin [02:21:54] And did you say at some point you decided you wanted to be an auditor? Is that right?

Claire Headley [02:21:57] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:21:58] Okay. What age was that?

Claire Headley [02:22:01] Let's see. I think 11 is when I decided.

John Dehlin [02:22:06] So what was that like?

Claire Headley [02:22:07] Well, so I began, I think, I think the first auditor training that I did. I was 12, and it was the Hubbard Qualified Scientologist course. And I, you know, I had never really wanted auditing as a child. The first auditing I received was from my mother when I was about 6. And I really didn't want auditing. But as we talked about earlier, you cannot refuse auditing, otherwise you. You're a suppressive person.

John Dehlin [02:22:39] And that's holding the cans and the little meter and all that?

Claire Headley [02:22:43] Yes. And you know, so. Yeah, you hold the. Yeah. So I, I began learning how to do. Use the E meter and do that counseling on other people. By the time I started learning to use the E meter, I was 13. And so I started moving through the what's called academy levels to become. Become a classed auditor at 13. And very quickly it was very, very uncomfortable as a child learning how to do that on adults.

John Dehlin [02:23:17] So you were doing that on adults. Whoa. And aren't they confessing big sins and dark sins and.

Claire Headley [02:23:26] Yep. Especially when you get to the. What's called a Class 2 auditor. That's where you are trained on how to deliver. Deliver security checks and interrogations. And for example, there's a. What's one of the more famous SEC checks or security checks is called the Johannesburg confessional. And so I learned how to do that specifically when I was about 13, going on 14. And it's. Did you murder someone? Did you rape someone? Did you commit sodomy? Did you have sex with someone of another race? Did you.

John Dehlin [02:24:02] Interracial sex is bad.

Claire Headley [02:24:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:24:05] I didn't realize there was a racial grouped into a.

Claire Headley [02:24:08] It's a. I mean, I can give you a copy of. The questions are outrageous, especially if you,

Marc Headley [02:24:14] if you can just imagine a 14 child asking them. And also did ask about beast.

John Dehlin [02:24:20] Did you say bestiality did that?

Claire Headley [02:24:22] I'm sure that was on there.

John Dehlin [02:24:23] And just as being gay bad. Just being.

Marc Headley [02:24:25] Oh yeah, that is 100%. That's called covert hostile. Hubbard says that anyone who is homosexual is at the tone level of 1.1, which is covert hostility. So they are presenting a face, a good face while holding a knife behind their back.

Claire Headley [02:24:44] While trying to stab you in the back. Yeah. It's covered extensively in another book by L. Ron Hubbard called Science of Survival where he details and he says that. That people who are 1.1 on the tone scale cover hostility should be sent off on a leper boat to die on an island. That's a scenario that he gives in that book.

John Dehlin [02:25:08] Okay, so as a 13, 14, 15 year old kid, you're learning how to interrogate adults to uncover deep transgressions.

Claire Headley [02:25:18] Yeah, and it was. It was definitely a conflict of being very uncomfortable with what I was being required to do. But yet in Scientology, again, it's another layer of the indoctrination and programming, like the way out is the way through. What turns it on, will turn it off is another thing you have to push through no matter what, and they will not let you quit. So I didn't have the option to say, oh, I just don't feel comfortable doing this anymore, because actually, then the opposite will happen. I'll be pushed through even harder. And on the flip side, now I'm learning and doing auditor training, which, of course, my mother and my stepfather by now are incredibly supportive of.

Claire Headley [02:26:03] It's the only thing they've ever supported me in. I never even went to high school after we moved to the U.S. they didn't put me back in school, but yet here I am. I'm doing my auditor training, so they're super happy and super proud of me.

Marc Headley [02:26:17] Also, as a kid, if you're the child of a Scientologist, if you're doing Scientology courses and you're doing stuff at the organization, everybody is like, this kid's a superstar.

Claire Headley [02:26:32] Right.

Marc Headley [02:26:34] The amount of love bombing when you're doing what they want is over the top. As soon as you pull back, or you're like, oh, I don't want to go on course anymore. Or now it's like, what's going on? What are you doing? Are you up to. Are you out ethics? Are you doing.

Claire Headley [02:26:50] Are you committing off purpose? You have other fish to fry.

Marc Headley [02:26:53] Committing overts, all these things. So then when you do do it, yeah, everybody switches into, oh, this is amazing. Oh, let's take you to go shopping. Let's do. So when you do it, you get rewarded, and that is a big thing in Scientology. Rewards and penalties.

Claire Headley [02:27:10] That's right.

Marc Headley [02:27:11] People that are productive and do Scientology and are dedicated are rewarded and everything else is penalized. And that. You learn that as a kid, you learn the rules of the game pretty quickly. Like, yes, when I do this, it's good. When I do that, not so good.

Claire Headley [02:27:28] Talk about baptism by fire. You know, it's like, oh, you better cooperate, or, yeah, your parental rights are Optional. And you're not going to have any parents anymore or you're going to have your, you know, so much at stake. Yes.

Marc Headley [02:27:41] And the other kind of interesting thing that I wanted to say, because she mentioned it in passing, is that she didn't go back to school after she moved to the States. In Scientology, L. Ron Hubbard really, really puts down a traditional education system. Like you're basically just being brainwashed to be what society wants you to be. And in Scientology, we're going to. To teach you the truth of the universe.

Claire Headley [02:28:07] Right. The one true technology, the. The path out that we've never had the opportunity for in all the past millions of years.

Marc Headley [02:28:15] So they almost treat it like it's a waste of time. So, like, if you're going to a traditional school, that's not a Scientology based school.

Claire Headley [02:28:26] Got it.

Marc Headley [02:28:26] You're not learning the real things that you need to learn. Reading and writing. And the three Rs was the only thing that Hubbard really put any. Like you need to know how to read, write, and do math.

Claire Headley [02:28:40] Yeah.

Marc Headley [02:28:40] Those are the only three things you know how to do. Everything else is useless.

Claire Headley [02:28:45] Interesting. Okay, so I'm kind of hearing at this point in time that you're having more approval. And in some ways did you feel more valuable, like when you learn skill or you climb make that ladder, I guess that you're kind of describing of the levels or you're cooperating also I guess within a person that really wants obedience. Yes. So on one hand, are you feeling the safety, Are you feeling more of the approval? Which basically did you feel desperate for from your childhood being like. So I don't know where you didn't really have any of that. But then on the flip side, you're also now being exposed to really adult situations, themes as a child.

Claire Headley [02:29:39] Yes. And it sounds like with not a lot of resources on how to process that or what you're so. It's like this dark, confusing. It sounds. Yeah, for sure. I know. So. So backing up a little bit just for context. So my mother ended up leaving the SEA organization when I was 10 because she had now married my stepdad and he had a lot of debt from having done the upper levels of Scientology and she'd gotten pregnant. And this was right at the time when they implemented the new rule of no more kids in the C organization. So she was actually told, if you have this baby, this is going to be one of the last babies born into the C organization.

Claire Headley [02:30:26] Or you can take a one year leave of absence, get the debts paid off, have the baby and then come back. That's the option she chose. She just never ended up going back into the C organization. So, yes, a huge part of and a huge driver of what motivated me to want to become an auditor or a counselor was that My stepdad was OT and he was a Class 8 auditor, and my mother had great respect and love for him. So I was like, oh, well, maybe if I do that, then I'll get my mother back and somehow have a decent relationship with her. So there was definitely a huge piece of.

Claire Headley [02:31:06] The requirements for approval within Scientology were to do Scientology and always be. Be participating and growing and earning love. Yes. Yes. In fact, I did. I drafted a TED Talk for To try and explain to people what it is to be born into a cult as a child. And that was one of the things I covered, is that unconditional love does not exist in Scientology, especially not for kids, but even not in husband and wife relationships. It's just not a thing.

John Dehlin [02:31:38] So how long were you an auditor for?

Claire Headley [02:31:42] Until I escaped.

John Dehlin [02:31:45] So until you were in your early 30s?

Claire Headley [02:31:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:31:48] So was that your main role?

Claire Headley [02:31:49] No, it was never my main role, but it was always a part of my duties was to put people to do. Sometimes do counseling. So there were. Let's see, there were several years where I did a lot of auditing on people, and it wasn't always necessarily like the interrogation piece is, to me, where. Where it's super, like, really invasive and really destructive. There are other elements where you're just asking people, oh, you know, remember a moment you were happy, recall a moment you were happy, recall, you know, or talk about problems with communication. That is less. I wouldn't say it's harmless because, unfortunately, it's all centered around the E meter and the belief that the E meter can see into your soul, and therefore they know everything about you. And so I think that's a very. It's a control mechanism of Scientology that, in retrospect, I think is very destructive and hurtful.

John Dehlin [02:32:53] Do they record the sessions? They do audio and video.

Claire Headley [02:32:57] Yes. In fact, my mark can speak to that.

Marc Headley [02:32:59] That was my job. I was the one who went to the organizations and wired up all the cameras and made all the systems so that it would record to a hard drive.

John Dehlin [02:33:08] So they keep everyone's confessions of their deepest, darkest things?

Claire Headley [02:33:11] Yes. And not only do they record the sessions, but part of an auditor's role is. So you're set up. You're sitting across from me. We have an E meter in between. So I'm looking at the needle Dial. You're holding the camera hands, there's a shield, and I have a worksheet. And everything you say, every question I ask, every reaction of the needle, everything you say in response is all written down on these worksheets. So there's not only an audio and a video visual recording of this session, but there's also a written recording of it as well.

John Dehlin [02:33:47] Yeah, and that's dark.

Marc Headley [02:33:48] And that is something that they are going to run into some problems with with the new, like, privacy laws, especially in Europe and other countries where they. If you don't have any dealings with an organization after so many years, you have to destroy all of those personal records. Well, because Scientology policies can never be changed. Once Hubbard wrote them, he says, you don't ever destroy anything. So they're gonna. That's gonna be. I really do think. Think that that will be a major hurdle that they will not be able to overcome outside of the US but

John Dehlin [02:34:23] in the US they just say religious freedom, but they can do whatever they want.

Marc Headley [02:34:27] And in the US I think eventually they will have to do something different than keep everybody's deepest, darkest secrets for the rest of time.

John Dehlin [02:34:36] Yeah. Okay. Okay. So how did your responsibilities grow and how did your personal life evolve after you became an auditor?

Pressure to Join and Claire's Recruitment

Claire Headley [02:34:45] Yeah, so. Well, from age 10, when my mom left the SEA organization, until age 16, I was constantly being hounded by Sea Org recruiters. Constantly. So, as I mentioned, starting at around age 7, I signed my first contract, and I signed at least four or five more after that until I eventually started. Started at age 16. But the more I became trained, the like I. I got. So I finished Class 0, Class 1, Class 2.

John Dehlin [02:35:18] So you were going through it too, yourself.

Claire Headley [02:35:21] Well, so this is the auditor training, right?

John Dehlin [02:35:24] Oh, the training.

Claire Headley [02:35:25] Yeah. So I was becoming trained in how to deliver the. The bridge to other people.

John Dehlin [02:35:30] And it doesn't involve being audited yourself or.

Claire Headley [02:35:34] No.

Marc Headley [02:35:37] Hubbard recommends that if you're doing the training, you do the processing at the same time. But a lot of people just do the training, and then they just do the counseling.

Claire Headley [02:35:49] Yeah, we were super poor, so we had no money for me to be getting auditing, so I would get student auditing, which is cheaper, where you twin up with somebody. So I had done. I did the purification rundown when I was 13. That's five hours a day in the sauna, taking up to 5,000 milligrams of niacin daily, which, by the way, is carcinogenic, according to the last research I looked at. And not to mention the fact that the Only drug I had had by that point, I'm 13, was Novocaine. But allegedly that resides in your fatty tissues and can cause problems and prevent you from getting the full benefits benefits of counseling. So that's why the purification rundown is one of the first things that you do on the bridge to total freedom. So I had done that.

Marc Headley [02:36:39] And it's also a good test for how much nonsense you're gonna put up with.

Claire Headley [02:36:44] Yeah.

Marc Headley [02:36:45] Because you have to sit in a sauna for basically five hours.

Claire Headley [02:36:49] My reaction seem good? No. At 13 either. I got violently ill after three weeks doing this program. I was up all night throwing up vitamins, which, by the way, I do not recommend, is one of the nastiest things on earth. If you're gonna throw up, do not throw up vitamins.

Claire Headley [02:37:07] Anyhow, it was, you know, it was bad, but yeah, so. But the pressure to join the SEA organization was just ever increasing, like more and more and more. And at one point, even so, I had done the professional TRS course is what it's called, where you have to do the training routines outlined by L. Ron Hubbard to a professional level, which includes sitting for two hours looking at somebody without blinking, without flinching, without yawning, without looking away. Just perfect TR0 and then TR0. Anyway, so I had done those drills multiple times when I was younger, but by this point, and this was a prerequisite to start the auditor training too, by the way.

Claire Headley [02:37:57] And one of the results of that course is that you should be able to handle any situation, no matter how rough. So when I went to my mother and stepfather and said, hey, I really need your help getting these recruiters off my back. My stepdad said, well, you should be able to deal with any communication situation since you finished the professional TRS course, so you can deal with it yourself.

Claire Headley [02:38:21] So, yeah, I asked for help and eventually I gave in at when? By the age of 16. Because already by that, by that point, I wasn't in school, I had no life. Everybody I knew was a Scientologist. I wasn't going to be able to resist the recruiters that much longer. So I gave in and I started on my contract at age 16, which was in July 1991.

Claire Headley [02:38:49] So do you feel like part of your conditioned experience was kind of being left alone a lot as a child and young adult, that when you attempted to, when you did kind of brave through and face even punishment for reaching out the times you did, you weren't really helped in any way? I do, yeah, absolutely. And even the significant trauma and abuse That I suffered. I never told anybody. You know, it was better to just suffer in silence and power through and not be victim blamed. That was less than right, you know, saying what happened for sure. Absolutely.

Marc Headley [02:39:40] In. In Scientology, whenever you complain or anything happens to you, it sort of goes on your permanent record. And so they will. There's a lot of times in Scientology where if anything happens, any major accident or event or trouble that you get into, they sort of go through all of your history, and they go through it and they go, he's got a history of this or this happened here or that happened or. So anything you do, if you bring it up, like, hey, I have a. I want to bring something up, it's like, okay, put that in the file. You know, so you've got to. As a kid, you sort of have to keep your cards close to the chest. You have to keep your cards close to the vest.

Claire Headley [02:40:27] It's kind of weaponized against you.

Marc Headley [02:40:30] They weaponize your bad experiences against you. So and. And. And if. And if you're succeeding Scientologist, you shouldn't be having any bad experiences. So it's kind of goes both ways. Like, if I'm having a bad time, it's because I'm bad. And if I'm having a bad time because I'm not bad, it's because I'm bad.

Claire Headley [02:40:52] So you can never, never win.

Marc Headley [02:40:54] You can never win as a kid. It's very. It's sort of. It's basically like there's no way to win. There's no good way to do this. There's no. There is no lesser evil. It's only more evil or as evil as is now. There's never. And so the Sea Org, it's kind of like it's almost a get out of jail free car. Because now you don't have to worry about your parents. You don't have to worry about school. You don't have to worry about a job. You don't have to worry about paying bills. You don't. You're getting rid of a whole bunch of problems. And if I do it, my parents might even like me a little bit too.

Claire Headley [02:41:37] It's like, it creates this world of, like, extreme scarcity when it comes to, like, human relationships and human needs.

John Dehlin [02:41:45] Yeah. Manufactured.

Claire Headley [02:41:46] That's right. Right. So that it creates this desperation where you're willing to kind of. I'm just thinking on the rebuilding side for y'.

Marc Headley [02:41:53] All.

Claire Headley [02:41:53] I know we're not there yet, but I'm just thinking, like, of how much damage to undo cause it's like taking healthy relationship principles and you're like conditioned to do the opposite, that it's a bad thing. So anyway, just a moment of feeling for you.

John Dehlin [02:42:09] So how was that for you to join?

Claire Headley [02:42:13] Yeah, I, you know, I felt like I. I was backed into a corner. I literally was backed into a corner. My stepdad told me, if you don't join by tomorrow, my best friend is getting a committee of evidence, which is like a tribunal, like just severe punishment.

John Dehlin [02:42:32] We call that a disciplinary council.

Claire Headley [02:42:34] Yeah, there you go. Disciplinary council.

John Dehlin [02:42:35] That's what we call it.

Marc Headley [02:42:36] Yeah.

Claire Headley [02:42:37] And does that include guilty?

John Dehlin [02:42:39] Yeah, I was excommunicated.

Claire Headley [02:42:40] Presumption of guilt. Guilt, yes. Disciplinary. What did you call it?

John Dehlin [02:42:45] Mormons have called it a disciplinary council, but it's where you're tried and ultimately excommunicated.

Marc Headley [02:42:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:42:51] Like a court of law.

Marc Headley [02:42:52] Yeah. So it's not.

John Dehlin [02:42:53] Yeah.

Claire Headley [02:42:53] So committee of evidence is the one that can. What do they call it? Expelled. Expulsion. Expulsion is a punishment only deliverable by a committee of evidence, technically.

Marc Headley [02:43:04] And that's also where a lot of people are declared a suppressive person is in a committee of evidence. They have another one which is like a baby committee of evidence, which is called a court of ethics. And that usually just dishes out some punishments and recommendations that you should do. And if you don't do those, they can result in a committee of evidence.

John Dehlin [02:43:28] But it's got to be weird. Your own stepdad is.

Claire Headley [02:43:30] I know. From a.

John Dehlin [02:43:31] Threatening you with that. Plus your mom left.

Claire Headley [02:43:35] I know. It was definitely a conflict.

Marc Headley [02:43:37] And he wasn't qualified to be in the Sea Org.

Claire Headley [02:43:40] No, it was.

Marc Headley [02:43:40] So he couldn't be in the Sea Org.

Claire Headley [02:43:42] Yeah. But it was his friend who was a member of the sea organization, who was going to get a committee of evidence if I didn't start the next day. And I remember, like, it was yesterday. My mom denies it now, but I went home and she was crying and like. And I'm sure part of that too was that I was looking after my siblings by that point, like 40 hours a week.

Marc Headley [02:44:07] And how old were they at that time?

Claire Headley [02:44:09] So, well, when that started. So let's see. Let me just think for a minute. So 14 to 16, I was the daycare for my siblings. So at the start, they were four, two and three months old. My youngest sister. And so I would look after them from noon until. Until, you know, ten to midnight each day. And I taught myself to cook by reading the entire Fannie Farmer cookbook front to back. And, you know, you get pretty creative when you have no Money, like, oh, well, what can I make with the ingredients we have and no money? Oh, let's make ham croquettes. We got ham and we got bread and we'll make it work.

Claire Headley [02:44:51] Anyway, so yeah, I literally had no life, no social life. I was babysitting my siblings, which I love them, I love them like they were my own kids. And that was actually the biggest reason for me that I didn't want to join the sewer because they, I knew they wouldn't remember me and sure enough, they don't. And now they do hate videos against me. So, but yeah, so I, I joined and I was terrified. I, I, I, I remember like just packing a bag in my comforter and getting dropped off at the big blue buildings in Los Angeles and being moved into a dorm with a bunch of other women.

Claire Headley [02:45:32] It was like, you know, bunks were 3 high in this small, little smelly, cramped space. And I right away was miserable. I didn't enjoy it at all. A few times I called my mom and was crying and telling her I couldn't do it. And she was, you just have to push through. You're going to get in a lot of trouble if you quit now. And I know it's hard. And you know, anyway, it was just being, you know, as a child really, I was still 16, being thrust back into this very alien world where it was just a lot of, you know, no freedom, no capacity to breathe, no spare time, no access to family.

Claire Headley [02:46:19] One of my first experiences within the first few weeks was there was an Italian woman who had been, she was under security watch in our dormitory where we were sleeping. And she was beautiful and I was really, she had been working with us. And then all of a sudden it was like, oh, she's not here, she's sick. And then I saw she was on a security watch. So I went, went up to her when I got home late one night and I said, what happened? Are you okay? And she's like, oh, I'm okay, I'm okay. But meanwhile, there's a security watch sitting outside. I'm like, something's not adding up here.

Claire Headley [02:46:54] And so I just kept pushing and she finally went like this and she tried to unalive herself and it was just really, really sad. And as a 16 year old, it was so overwhelming, like, oh my God, how could this happen? But again, I already felt by that point I had no way out. That's right.

John Dehlin [02:47:14] What did your main roles become? Your main duties?

Claire Headley [02:47:19] Let's see, this was July 1991, when I started by September of 1991, I had been moved to the headquarters where I met Mark. This was the 500 acre compound in Gilman Hot Springs, California. And for the five first five years there, I was in the staff training department. So I would.

Claire Headley [02:47:40] Staff were required to do two and a half hours a day study. So I would either oversee them. Yeah, exactly. Scientology courses. So I would. My role was supervisor, and I also did counseling during that time. And then.

Claire Headley [02:47:59] So that was the first five years until March 1996. And then I was moved into Religious Technology center, where I worked for the next eight years directly under David and Shelley Miscavige in various roles, but primarily executive correction. So all the management executives, I would have to correct them if they mess things up again with Scientology, word clearing or interrogations, or various different tools provided by Hubbard. I had to attend most meetings with David Miscavige, with the management executives. That was during the time that he was at the property. It would be meetings every day then starting in 2000-2004. So the last four years that I was in Religious Technology Center, I was over the internal functions of Religious Technology Center.

Claire Headley [02:48:58] So technically, I was number three under Marty Rathbun, who worked for David Miscavige. Of course, that didn't mean I had any more freedom than anybody else, but I was responsible for recruiting new staff into Religious Technology center, approving the financial planning, staff training, things of that nature.

John Dehlin [02:49:20] So is this one of the most

Marc Headley [02:49:21] elite groups within highest Scientology organizations?

John Dehlin [02:49:24] And was Rinder there when you were there? Yes.

Claire Headley [02:49:27] Yeah. He was not in Religious Technology Center. He was, but he was a management executive, though. There was about a year where he was considered in Religious Technology center, even though he wasn't.

Marc Headley [02:49:42] Whatever.

Claire Headley [02:49:42] It gets confusing.

Marc Headley [02:49:43] He was running Religious Technology Center.

Claire Headley [02:49:45] We worked with him. Sometimes I had to interrogate him, sometimes I had to bring him coffee. It just depended on the day. And Miscavige, his mood, kind of all over the map. He forgives me. I forgive him.

John Dehlin [02:49:59] So what are the stories you feel are really important to tell about working at Scientology headquarters from the beginning to the end? Like, if people wanted to get a sense for your experiences there, what are the key stories to tell? Because obviously I want to ask all about David Miscavige.

Claire Headley [02:50:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:50:18] There, you know, rumors that he was physically abusive to people, that he was a tyrant. But I don't want to just jump there. So talk about whatever you want to talk about about working at Scientology headquarters.

Claire Headley [02:50:31] Yeah, let's see.

John Dehlin [02:50:33] I'm sure there's so much you could Tell.

Claire Headley [02:50:34] No, there is. I mean, I. Key points. I mean, it sucks to talk about, but I was forced to have two abortions in the year years that I was working there. The first was when I was in Golden E Productions. The second was two years later.

Marc Headley [02:50:54] You're not allowed to have children in the SEA Organization.

John Dehlin [02:50:56] Okay, so what. What year did y' all meet?

Claire Headley [02:50:58] And so we met in 1991, and then we married in August 1992.

John Dehlin [02:51:08] Okay, and you joined what year again?

Claire Headley [02:51:10] So, 1991 is when I joined, and then I was moved to the headquarters, which is where we met, and I

Marc Headley [02:51:17] had already been there since 1990.

John Dehlin [02:51:19] Okay, so maybe. Maybe let's back up.

Marc Headley [02:51:21] Well, we can tell mine. Maybe then ours kind of match back up again.

Claire Headley [02:51:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:51:25] Yeah, let's do that.

Claire Headley [02:51:26] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:51:27] All right, well. Well, first of all, thank you so much for sharing. Going through all that, Claire, so much of that. I mean, we can't imagine what you've been through, but we know it's sacred stuff to be sharing.

Claire Headley [02:51:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:51:41] What you've.

Claire Headley [02:51:42] I appreciate that. And I will say just in closing, that I know it's an awful thing, but to me, it also speaks to the tenacity of children and the importance of education to gain perspective on that, because, speaking for myself, I really did not have perspective on my childhood until I had kids of my own. And all of a sudden, everything shifted very dramatically. And as. As our kids have reached each milestone where we can compare and go, oh, my gosh, like, you know, when our oldest son turned 4, I was like, what? That's how old I was when my mother joined the SEA Organization. It has really put a lot into perspective on the road to recovering from all of that. Oh, absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:52:28] Yeah.

Claire Headley [02:52:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:52:29] Okay. Well, thanks for sharing, Claire. Mark, where does your Scientology story be?

Marc Headley's Path Into Scientology

Marc Headley [02:52:37] So my parents. I was born in Nebraska, and then my parents moved to Kansas City. And then in 1979, my father in high school was in a band, and one of the band members had moved to Los Angeles. And I think my father was in college for. For a little bit, and then ended up dropping out.

Marc Headley [02:53:07] And then the guy in LA was like, hey, you should come out to la. We can. I can get us. We can be a band, and we can make it big, and. Da, da, da, da, da. So in 19, and I want to say November of 1979, my mother, my father, and my sister and I, we all moved to California from Kansas City.

Marc Headley [02:53:29] And I want to say within a month, the guy who was the band, in the band with my dad, we found out he was in Scientology, and he got my mother into Scientology, and my dad didn't want to have anything to do with it. He was like, this is not good. I don't want to do this.

Marc Headley [02:53:50] And I didn't know at the time, but for that reason, they split up. So I have the memory of the family pre Scientology, and then after Scientology. And after Scientology is when everything goes to. And before that, we weren't rich or anything, but we lived in a house and we went to regular schools, and it was like, this is how life is. And then as soon as we got to Los Angeles, my parents split up. We were now poor because it cost a lot more to live in California than it did in the middle of Kansas City. And. And my mother was sort of all in from the get go, like, did that.

John Dehlin [02:54:30] Do you know, have you ever thought about what made them want to join things in their life? Personality traits? Like, what would make someone make such a dramatic change? What made your parents want to make such a dramatic change? Do you even have a sense of.

Marc Headley [02:54:46] I think my dad genuinely wanted to be a musician, and so moving to California for that dream made perfect sense. And they put out cassettes and albums, and they were doing stuff, and they were always almost about to make it, and then the whole thing would fall apart. And oddly enough, there was a lot of Scientology people that were involved with all kind of parts of this journey and including this band, because one of the members was a Scientologist. No, actually, two of the members were Scientologists. One, the drummer was.

Marc Headley [02:55:25] Was a gentleman by the name of Thad Korea, which was Chick Corea's son. So they had connections into the music industry. And one of Thad Korea's best friend was this guy named Danny Keo, and Danny Keo's girl friend was Lisa Marie Presley. And there was all of these sort of Scientology celebrity and musician connections, which they seemed to be able to maybe have access to, but then it would kind of all fall apart. So in terms of my mother and why she was so drawn to Scientology, she grew up on a farm in the middle of nowhere. And I think that the fact that John Travolta and Chickorea and there were these famous. Tom Cruise wasn't in Scientology in the early 80s, but there was.

John Dehlin [02:56:17] But Travolta went early.

Marc Headley [02:56:18] Oh, Travolta was 100. Travolta, I think, got in either right before or after he got welcome Back Cotter.

John Dehlin [02:56:25] Oh.

Marc Headley [02:56:25] And so that's how long he was in.

Claire Headley [02:56:27] Oh, wow.

Marc Headley [02:56:28] That's early and, and so I think that was sort of part of the allure also. We. We lived in Hollywood, and that's where the Scientology celebrity center is. So in la, in the industry, if you're an actor or if you're a musician or if you're any kind of artist in la, Scientology's all over.

Marc Headley [02:56:51] They have people in all these different areas of the industry, and they use their celebrities to get in other celebrities, and then they use the celebrities to get into regular folk. So I think, if anything, my mom, that was sort of her thing, like, she kind of gravitated to these are successful people, and they're using Scientology to be successful. So she was sort of all in right away. And I remember even when I was. I think I was probably 7 or 8, and it was like, oh, you're going to go to a different school now. You're not going to go to the public schools anymore.

Marc Headley [02:57:31] You're going to go to a Scientology school. And there was a school in Los Angeles called Apple School, and they used L. Ron Hubbard's study technology. They did all of the normal classes a regular school would do, but if you ran into a word that you didn't understand, you had to look it up in a dictionary, and you had to do these certain procedures which are identical to what you have to do if you're in the scientific Scientology organization.

Marc Headley [02:57:56] And so there's just a. It's just kind of like just a kiss of Scientology. And then the. The people who ran that school didn't want to be paying Scientology royalties and have to do certain things. That Scientology was sort of imposing Scientology, the rules of a Scientology organization on these schools that were using Scientology.

Marc Headley [02:58:23] And so they sort of rebelled, and then the school blacklisted, and the people that were running the school were declared suppressive persons. So literally one day, it was just like at the end of school, like, oh, you're not going to go back to that school again. It's like, what do you mean? That's where my friends are. That, nope, you can't go there anymore. And like, what? And then later on, I found out, oh, they got declared suppressives, and now no one can go to that school. That's a Scientologist.

John Dehlin [02:58:48] Dang.

Marc Headley [02:58:49] And so then I had to go back to regular public schools again. Again. And it turns out in the Scientology schools, they're not really keeping up with the curriculum of the standardized public school system. And so I ended up not doing so well in those schools just because I was behind. And then my parents said, listen, we have enough money to maybe send your sister to a Scientology school, but not necessarily you. We're going to see how it goes. And so then I ended up going to another Scientology school called the Deli Academy, and that is also in Los Angeles in California. It's actually in like a.

Marc Headley [02:59:32] It was in a town called La Canada, which is maybe like 30 minutes from Scientology's big blue building complex in Los Angeles. And I ended up going there for several years and at the. That school by this time, this is in the mid-80s now. And they teach Scientology at this school. They don't just dabble in the study technology. They teach other Scientology concepts. And you do the courses, you do just a regular history course you do with a Scientology check sheet. So you read something, then you demonstrate something. You might do a clip play demonstration, and then there's a tests, and you have to get tested in a Scientology fashion.

Marc Headley [03:00:16] And when you're done with the course at. In this school, you put. You go on an E meter and they do a check. And so it's very kind of hybrid Scientology mixed with a regular education.

John Dehlin [03:00:29] It's like a charter school kind of thing.

Marc Headley [03:00:31] I don't know how they designate themselves.

Claire Headley [03:00:34] It's a private school.

Marc Headley [03:00:35] It's a private school.

John Dehlin [03:00:36] Wow.

Marc Headley [03:00:37] And so at this school, and also by this time, Scientology sort of evolved its organization structure so that the office that we talked about, Scientology, perpetrated the largest infiltration in the United States government. Well, the government infiltration was mainly perpetrated by a Scientology organization called the Guardians Office. And the Guardians Office office was responsible for the Scientology schools. So when they. When they. When all these people, these Scientology officials, including L. Ron Hubbard's wife, went to jail for this government infiltration, they had to disband the Guardian Office. And so all of the schools that were under the Guardian Office, they had to make a new organization, and they called it the association for Better Living and Education able.

Marc Headley [03:01:28] And that. That group is the one that controls the Scientology schools. The Way to Happiness foundation, which is kind of like a precepts to good living that was written by L. Ron Hubbard, like, brush your teeth, don't sleep with your neighbor's wife. You know, these type of things.

Claire Headley [03:01:45] Don't murder, don't do anything illegal.

Marc Headley [03:01:47] Support and support and forward government supportive of the people and all these different, different things.

John Dehlin [03:01:56] But.

Marc Headley [03:01:57] And criminal, which is a criminal rehabilitation program that uses Scientology courses, and Narconon, which is a drug rehabilitation program that just uses Scientology courses as a drug rehab course. So this organization, able, ran the group that Ran the schools. It was called Applied Scholastics, and it's just a corporation. So Applied Scholastics is just a corporation that runs all of the Scientology schools that license. License L. Ron Hubbard's study technology. So that's again, how this authored services organization gets a cut from all. They get a cut from the Narconon. They get a cut from any group that uses any L. Ron Hubbard technology. They have to pay a royal royalty fee to the Church of Scientology, this one group, which.

Claire Headley [03:02:53] Which, by the way, just to interject, I'm pretty certain that that was replicated off the Mormon tithing system.

Marc Headley [03:03:00] Oh, yes. Yeah. And we'll get into David Miscavige's fascination with the Mormons later on, but I

John Dehlin [03:03:07] want to hear all about that.

Marc Headley [03:03:09] Yes, of course. David Miscavige loves him. Some Mormons. He loves what they're doing and all

Claire Headley [03:03:16] the things and all the ways they do and the bank accounts. And

Marc Headley [03:03:22] he is more and more shifting everything in Scientology to that. To Mormon systems and the way they fundraise, and all of those things are slowly morphing over. And most of the things that they do do in Mormonism, Hubbard, for Bates, he said, you cannot do that. So for the fact that David Miscavige is slowly migrating everything over is an interesting choice on his part. But. So I was going to this school, Delphi, and again, this is now I'm 12, 13, 14, and because this organization, the association that is a C organization, they're in charge of the school.

John Dehlin [03:04:07] School.

Marc Headley [03:04:09] So they would send Sea Org recruiters from their organization to the school.

Claire Headley [03:04:14] Got it.

John Dehlin [03:04:15] Yep.

Marc Headley [03:04:15] And so you're at. And by this time, by the time I was 14, I had. I never had a good relationship with my mother once she got into Scientology. As long as I didn't do Scientology, I was a zero and I did not matter and there was no fixing it. So. So I, at the age of. I think I was 13 or 14, I was like, I'm out. My dad had moved to Nebraska from California.

Marc Headley [03:04:45] The band thing didn't end up working out. He moved to Nebraska, and I was staying with my mother. And she was like, if you don't go on course and do Scientology courses, then you can't be a part of the family. So I was like, okay, good. It was sort of like a ultimatum. And I was like, okay, good. Then I'm not going to be part of the family. And so I moved out and I was actually living with my friend, my best friend, and his parents used to be in the Sea Org when He was a baby, and they got out, and the dad became very successful and started a whole bunch of companies.

Marc Headley [03:05:24] And so. And so. And because we went to school together and I was his best friend, whenever they would go on a trip, the dad would be like, well, Mark, why don't you come that way? Jesse's got somebody to hang out with when we go to Steamboat for two weeks or when we go jet skiing and the Kern river or whenever. So I was with them all the time. And so when the trouble started at my mom's house, he was just like, why don't you just stay with us? You're not having a good time with your mom. Just come with us. And they were Scientologists and they were former Sea Org members.

Claire Headley [03:05:55] Okay?

Marc Headley [03:05:56] But they were. They understood that I wasn't in a good place. So, like, just come stay with us. So I just moved in with my friend and I lived with him. And my dad would send him like $200 a month and just be like, hey, here's something to help him. And my dad knew when he lived in California, I would constantly be back and forth, oh, you're going to live with your dad now because you're not going to do Scientology. And your dad. My dad wasn't in Scientology at had nothing to do with it. And he didn't care that I didn't want to do it.

Marc Headley [03:06:29] So it was a safe place for me to go. So when he moved out of state, I was like, well, now I'm. You lost your life. I have no safe place to go. And so I ended up going living with him. And then he ended up. He was. He. His name was Ron Rasdrom. He's since passed away. But my friend's dad, he. In the early days, days of cable television, he was the one who manufactured the cable boxes that you would sign up for Showtime or Z Channel or whatever it was back then. You'd have to buy his box, and then you'd sign up for their service.

Marc Headley [03:07:06] And he had two companies, and they were each their biggest competitor, and he owned both of them. They made all the cable boxes, and so he ended up selling that. Those businesses. And I remember to this day that word got out amongst Scientology that he had sold these huge companies.

Marc Headley [03:07:29] And so they sent these people who are the ones who get the money from you. They sent them to his family, to his house, and when we got home from school, they were. There were all these people there meeting with him. And he had made several million from the sale of all these companies. And Scientology wanted their cut, and so they got him to pay for his entire bridge, which means all of the training and all of the auditing for him, his wife, and, I think, their children, from nothing all the way to ota.

Claire Headley [03:08:06] Wow.

Marc Headley [03:08:06] Which is hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars per person. And so as part of that, the people that run that cruise ship that I was talking about, that's in Aruba and Bonaire and Curacao, well, they wanted their cut too. And so he signed up for himself and. And for my best friend and for me to go to that ship and do some Scientology courses.

Claire Headley [03:08:32] I see.

Marc Headley [03:08:33] And as part of that, we would also go to Clearwater Water, and we would do a bunch of courses in Clearwater at the headquarters there, which is the Mecca they call. That's the only place that you can do the highest operating thetan levels. You can only do them in Clearwater.

Claire Headley [03:08:48] They call flag, the mecca of technical perfection.

Marc Headley [03:08:53] So if you want to do the higher levels, you have to be trained in Florida, and you have to do your counseling. Your highest levels of counseling. You have to do that. That in Florida.

Claire Headley [03:09:02] I see.

Marc Headley [03:09:03] And so for the summer, we basically. His dad sold it to us, like, hey, we're gonna take. He had two jet skis. He said, we're gonna take the two jet skis and we're gonna do a cross country trip to Florida. We're gonna jet ski all over the place on the way there. We're gonna jet ski once we get there. And then you guys will do your courses. We'll go to the cruise ship and do some courses there, and we'll have a great summer. So this is.

Claire Headley [03:09:31] This is, to me, the importance of packaging. The packaging, because it feels like you left your mom's house, like, living with your mom, being like, yeah, I don't want anything to do with it.

Marc Headley [03:09:41] Exactly.

Claire Headley [03:09:41] But then this version. See, this is a little more palatable.

Marc Headley [03:09:45] Exactly. He knew how to sell it. She was like, do it or nothing. And he was like, hey, listen, we're gonna do a lot. We're have a lot of fun, and you got to do a little bit of work.

Marc Headley [03:09:57] So during that trip, my best friend gets recruited for the sea organization. He's gone. His girlfriend, also a good friend of mine, recruited for the Sea Org. Gone. My girlfriend was being recruited. She didn't want to go in the Sea Org. And I was being recruited, and I didn't want to go in the Sea Org. I lived in Hollywood right around the corner when I was with my mom, we lived right around the corner from that big blue building that has the big sign to it. We lived like a block and a half away. And I always would see the Sea Org members and they stunk and they were dirty and they were.

Marc Headley [03:10:34] It was basically like a lower. A Sea Org member was a lower life form to me. They were filthy, and they lived and filthy and they. They were just. They were to me as a kid, I always got. I always. And I had also when I was young, growing up, when my dad, he lived across the street from the Celebrity center. So my mom lived across from that big blue building, and my dad lived across the street from the Castle, which is the manor, the celebrity center in Hollywood. And they had a Sea Org daycare facility next to that, the Celebrity Center. And whenever I saw the kids, I would always feel bad for the kids because they never were with their parents.

Marc Headley [03:11:16] They were always filthy because they weren't taking showers or baths daily. They would take like a once a week bath or shower. So they would always be dirty, they would always stink, and they'd always be. You could tell they were just. No one was taking care of them. And so for me, I always thought the worst thing is the Sea Org. You can never join the Sea Org because it's horrible. Horrible. And they don't care about the kids.

Marc Headley [03:11:43] Anyway, I ended up. They. My friend gets. Goes into the Sea Org. His girlfriend goes in the Sea Org. And so now I'm living with the family because my friend is in the family and now he's not in the family anymore.

John Dehlin [03:11:59] He's gone.

Marc Headley [03:12:00] So now I'm actually living with the family and my friend is gone. So I'm like, well, I can't do this. So I move back to California and I stay with another friend that went to school. It was actually a girl and her sister was at a board a Scientology boarding school. So they had an empty bedroom. So they're like, hey, you could stay here. And then I ended up working for the school. So that's how I would pay for my schooling because it was a private school, I think I want to say cost five or six hundred dollars a month at the time in the eighties.

Marc Headley [03:12:35] And so the school said, listen, if you work for us, then that'll pay for your education. And on top of that, we will pay you additional money. So I was basically making a few hundred dollars a week, but I was also paying for my schooling. And then I had enough money for some bologna sandwiches and some ra.

Marc Headley [03:12:58] And I had to figure out how to get to stay somewhere. I was Staying with this girl, her family. The girl that I was staying with, her parents were recruited for the Sea Organization. So they went to the c. Organization. So then I was like, you gotta be kidding me. So then I had to. I'm 14.

Marc Headley [03:13:18] And so now I'm like, well, now I've got to find another place to live. So then I. There was two teachers or one teacher that worked at the school who had a roommate who was like a paramedic or something. She wasn't. She might have been like, barely in Scientology or kind of knew about it. But anyway, so I ended up staying. She had a room where her stuff her son would stay in when he would come to visit her, but he lived with his dad, so I got to stay in his room. Okay. She was. This teacher was recruited.

John Dehlin [03:13:50] They keep recruiting everyone away from you.

Claire Headley [03:13:52] Okay, can I just ask a really quick question? Cause the way you're describing, at least your perception of the Sea Org Organization, like that it's, you know, the kids are dirty, that it's not the most appealing, but yet it's so successfully picking up. And even the son of. Didn't you say the first friend you moved in with.

Marc Headley [03:14:17] Yeah.

Claire Headley [03:14:17] Who the dad got all the money.

Marc Headley [03:14:20] Yeah.

Claire Headley [03:14:21] And. And then why didn't he quit it? Did he quit the sea? Why would he want his son to do it?

Marc Headley [03:14:27] Well, if you are a Scientologist and you're in the Sea Organization and you leave, it's usually in their case, it was because of the children that they had to leave. They said, no more kids.

Claire Headley [03:14:41] You can't have kids.

Marc Headley [03:14:41] So because they had kids, it was like, okay, we'll go raise the kids and then we'll join once they. The kids are older or whatever. They don't really end up going back. They get in the real world and they're like, well, of course I'm not going to go back, because that place is crazy. But when the kids are old enough now, it's sort of on them. Hey, you never came back.

Claire Headley [03:15:03] Got it.

Marc Headley [03:15:04] The kids. And it's sort of.

Claire Headley [03:15:07] It reminds me of missions almost like where the parents feel the pressure to have the kids go 100%. The motto of the SEA organization is we come back. And also, many are called few are chosen.

John Dehlin [03:15:20] So with we use that many are called, but fewer chosen.

Marc Headley [03:15:24] That is the motto of the Sea Org.

Claire Headley [03:15:25] Many are called, many are chosen, few are chosen. So Mark is telling you his honest perception as a child of the Sea Organization. But no Scientologists would ever say that. They're like, no, they're the most true.

Marc Headley [03:15:40] You could never say that. I can say it now. No, because I'm a suppressive person. Yeah, but if you were.

Claire Headley [03:15:45] But within the structure of Scientology, members of the Sea Organization are pitched and presented as the most dedicated beings on the planet.

Marc Headley [03:15:54] They're the elite of Scientology.

Claire Headley [03:15:56] Got it? Yeah.

Marc Headley [03:15:57] So, okay, thank you. And so even all the time that I was going to the school, I was constantly. They were trying to recruit me to be in the Sea Org. It's a very. If you're between the ages of 13 and 16, that's the perfect Sea Org age. Because you don't have any debts, you don't have it. You can't have done anything bad that could disqualify you for the Sea Org because you're not that old.

Marc Headley [03:16:26] And actually, one of the main disqualifications for the Sea Org is, is if you have debts, because they don't want anything to pull you back out of Scientology, and they don't want anything to be a liability for them. So if, say, you owe somebody a half a million bucks and they're like, hey, well, this guy works for these guys. Let's go after those guys. So they don't want any of that. But the other thing is drugs. If you've done LSD or angel dust

Claire Headley [03:16:51] or those two, if you've done those two specifically, you can never join the Sea Organization.

Marc Headley [03:16:57] Yeah. Because L. Ron Hubbard, I'm pretty sure, had done both of them and had many Sea Org members that had done both of them. And those guys turned out to be the flat ball bearings he had lots of troubles with. So he said, nobody who's done those two drugs can be in the Sea Org. And so when I was a kid, when I was 12 or 13, when the sea Org members would be like, hey, can we talk to you for a second? I'd be like, LSD in 79. And I just keep walking, walking down the street.

John Dehlin [03:17:22] Let me just say, for the Mormon Church, they don't necessarily grab them for multi year commitments in their early teen years, but they grab them when they're 18 missionaries and they serve for two years. They pay for themselves to go on the missions. They're basically paying to be the church's salesman.

Marc Headley [03:17:44] Yeah. And then they have to do so many baptisms or so many, many this every month or whatever.

John Dehlin [03:17:49] But the church knows, you know, they've done studies. What guarantees or what decisions will most likely guarantee that the members will stay faithful for the rest of their lives. If you can get them on a mission, when they're 18 or 19. They serve a two year or in the case of women, a year and a half volunteer mission. They pay for and then immediately they get married in the church, in the temple, and then having kids and they know that if they can get them in. And so the missionary program, people outside the church think that the Mormon missionary program is to convert the world. But the number one purpose of the Mormon missionary program is to convert the teenagers. A lifelong commitment to the church.

Claire Headley [03:18:41] That's crazy.

Marc Headley [03:18:42] Yeah, yeah. So in the Sea Org. Yeah, in the Sea Org.

John Dehlin [03:18:46] It's like our Sea Org, basically. And the Mormon mission is the most cult like aspect of Mormonism.

Claire Headley [03:18:53] Right. It's like a little more extreme. The expectations, the control ramps.

John Dehlin [03:18:57] We can't read the newspaper, you can't watch movies, you can't watch tv, you can't date.

Claire Headley [03:19:02] Is it similar?

Marc Headley [03:19:02] You know, they, they you, if you're in the Sea Org and you get People magazine, if there's a bad article about scientology in there, it doesn't get to you. Oh, it just gets thrown away.

John Dehlin [03:19:15] Well, as more missionary, you can't even read the magazine. Well, yeah, yeah.

Marc Headley [03:19:18] There's no, you're not watching tv, there's no tv.

John Dehlin [03:19:21] Right.

Marc Headley [03:19:22] There's no newspapers, there's no magazines. If you're from wealth and you end up in the Sea Org, so you might have a car. Most Sea Org members don't have a car. Most of your members don't have a driver.

Claire Headley [03:19:32] You and far between. Between few and far between.

John Dehlin [03:19:34] I never had a car as a missionary in Guatemala. Never had a car.

Claire Headley [03:19:37] Yeah.

Marc Headley [03:19:38] So. So here I was though, I'm now 13, 14. I've already had to move several times.

Claire Headley [03:19:46] Yeah.

Marc Headley [03:19:47] And I'm paying for my everything. I, my dad was sending my friend's dads a couple hundred bucks. But once I was on my own, he didn't send me nothing. And I don't even think he sent the dad that much money over the year or whatever I lived with him. But. So it was at a point where I was having to somehow get a ride to school, somehow pay for food, somehow get home, make it so I had like a bed and clothing and just all the necessities and somehow feed myself.

Marc Headley [03:20:21] And I was 14. So I was at a point where I think by the third place, like when I got this final place with the teacher, I was like, I'm good. I got my own room. She doesn't care what I do. She lets me borrow her car. She gives me a ride there, a ride back. I was Sort of like, I finally got it.

Claire Headley [03:20:44] Yeah.

Marc Headley [03:20:45] And then these recruiters show. Sea Org recruiters show up at the school, and there was a rule, because they had been swiping so many students, a rule was instituted, basically, like, sort of agreed upon between the Sea Org and the school that you're not going to recruit any more kids. You got to let the kids. You got to leave the kids alone, because we're trying to get these kids to graduate, and you're stealing them all before they can ever graduate. So nobody ever graduates the school.

Marc Headley [03:21:14] So I was like, well, hey, they're not going to mess with me. And so then they. I got called into this office, and the recruiters are there, and I was like, what's the deal, guys? They're like, well, we wanted to talk to you. I was like, you can't talk to me. I'm a student. They're like, you also work here, so we're going to talk to you because you are. You're. You're. You're. You're employed here, right? And we're allowed to talk to the teachers. We're not allowed to talk to the students. Well, you're teacher, so we're going to talk to you.

Claire Headley [03:21:42] Got it.

Marc Headley [03:21:43] Anyway, I was like, that's kind of lame. I'm coaching soccer for.

John Dehlin [03:21:47] For.

Claire Headley [03:21:47] For seven years to pay for your tuition, no less.

Marc Headley [03:21:50] I'm kind of like, come on, guys,

John Dehlin [03:21:52] this is a stretch.

Marc Headley [03:21:53] Anyway, they sell me this story about how I can go off to this Indian reservation in Oklahoma where they have a Narconon facility that helps get people off drugs. Now, I grew up in Hollywood, and I grew up right next to Hollywood Boulevard, and I've seen anything and everything as a small kid. Again, when you're. When your parents are in Scientology, you're kind of like, no one's watching you. You're. I would stay out till midnight every night when I lived in Hollywood, and sometimes I'd come home and my dad hadn't even got home yet. And sometimes when I was with my mom, she'd be at her boyfriend's house or she'd be at another boyfriend's house. So I could go and do anything all day in a night, and no one would know the difference.

Claire Headley [03:22:36] Incredible. Which, by the way, is driven by the belief by L. Ron Hubbard that children are not children. They're adults in small bodies. So that is the overriding of where it's just an extreme lack of adult supervision across the boards and driving your childhood and my childhood in different contexts, of course, but that's why that is interesting.

Marc Headley [03:23:05] Anyway, so they pushed, but they knew where. This is another thing that's very interesting in Scientology is they study a person and where they live and what they've done so that they can sort of craft a narrative that's going to appeal to that person, and they call it buttons. So if you. If I grew up in Hollywood and maybe some friends passed away of drugs or I saw drug use or I brought up that I was kind of sad that that was happening around me or whatever it was. So they were like, hey, you can go to a Narconon facility that's run by Scientology, and you can help get people off drugs, and we're going to pay you to do it.

Marc Headley [03:23:51] It's not going to be like the regular Sea Org where you don't get paid. We're going to pay you minimum wage. Because Narconon is not part of the Sea Organization. It's. It's just a group, and you have to get minimum wage if you work there. So I'm thinking, I don't have to go to school anymore.

Claire Headley [03:24:07] Yeah.

Marc Headley [03:24:07] I can join the Sea Organization and do this instead of the stuff I've seen. The Sea Org. It's horrible in Los Angeles. The Sea Org is horrible. I'm not going to be in Los Angeles. I'm going to be in Oklahoma doing this drug rehabilitation program at the C.

Claire Headley [03:24:22] Big acreage with Land Beautiful. Sold it.

Marc Headley [03:24:26] Yes. For me, at the time, I'm paying rent. I'm. And I'm 14. I'm like, there's too much.

John Dehlin [03:24:32] Both of you.

Claire Headley [03:24:32] Both of you are like, literally children as adults.

Marc Headley [03:24:36] Yeah.

Claire Headley [03:24:36] Yeah.

Marc Headley [03:24:37] And so for me, at the time, I thought, this is going to solve a lot of problems, and it might even fix the problem with my mom, because. Because unless I'm doing Scientology, she doesn't want to have anything to do with me. And so as soon as I sign that contract. Oh, she's the biggest supporter of me that in my entire life, I never felt so much support from the day I said, hey, I signed a Sea Org contract. I'm going to go work. I'm going to go work for these guys. And this is what I'm going to do. Da, da, da da. And then.

John Dehlin [03:25:12] And the parental conditional love and moral is not that extreme, but I think it's similar in the sense that we very much have performance equals worth righteousness equals worth obedience culture, where many kids only feel love and support from their parents if they're doing what's right.

Claire Headley [03:25:37] That's right. And parents Particularly mothers hold a lot of. Of this sense of, like, how successful they are if their kids remain Mormons.

Marc Headley [03:25:47] I was just going to tell you, in the Sea Organ or in the Scientology world, if you're a Scientologist and your children are in the Sea Org, your status as a Scientologist is raised because you raised two people that then now are in the elite of Scientology.

Claire Headley [03:26:05] Yeah.

Marc Headley [03:26:06] So there is. Is no there. It's. It's almost. Even if you did something bad as a Scientologist, you can erase that. If one of your children joined the

Claire Headley [03:26:16] Sea Organization, which happened with my mother. My mother had been in the Sea Organization, left, didn't go back. The way that she was allowed to be approved to do the upper levels of Scientology was because I was in the Sea Organization and I was a member of Religious Technology center, and that literate wiped her slate so that she could be approved to do the upper levels. Got it.

Marc Headley [03:26:41] So I understood that. I understood those dynamics, and I did want to have a relationship with her, even though, I mean, she was very physically violent with me when I was a children, like, punch, punch me in the face kind of violent. Not, you know, not a spanking.

John Dehlin [03:26:56] We're talking, like, would she have been taught that that was wrong as a Scientologist?

Marc Headley [03:27:00] I think corporal punishment. Well, she grew up on a farm.

John Dehlin [03:27:04] Okay.

Marc Headley [03:27:04] That wasn't scientist, and I think that was okay. That kind of. She might have gotten a lot of that from the farm life in the middle of.

John Dehlin [03:27:11] Because I know David Miskovich.

Claire Headley [03:27:14] And so my answer, Scientology.

Marc Headley [03:27:16] It's not frowned upon to get violent with somebody. It's not frowned upon.

Claire Headley [03:27:20] So it's sort of encouraged to put their ethics in like Hubbard outlined. If somebody's misbehaving, take them in a dark alley and do. And, you know, do what you need to do.

Marc Headley [03:27:32] Yeah. There's a policy. It's in actually the policy called Knowledge Reports, where you're encouraged to. If somebody does something, you're encouraged to at least report them. But it's also in there that says if Joe's going around with pins, it's literally Joe.

Claire Headley [03:27:47] Yeah. First pin prick, give Joe a black eye.

Marc Headley [03:27:50] Yeah. And then it says, and if Joe ends up getting taken in a back alley and dealt with, then that so be it. But as long as somebody's not doing what we want him to do in Scientology, then bad things could happen to that person.

Claire Headley [03:28:03] Yeah. That's human. That's where. That's where, you know, corporal punishment, like Mark is describing, is not necessarily encouraged broadly, but it's Definitely not forbidden.

Marc Headley [03:28:16] Yeah.

Claire Headley [03:28:16] And. And Hubbard outlines frequently that in his body of ethics technology, you have to make the punishment too gruesome to be faced and enforce those punishments to gain and enforce compliance.

Marc Headley [03:28:35] And yeah, that's actually, that policy is called too gruesome. So if somebody's not complying, make the. The penalties so gruesome that they will not dare non comply. And in a lot of instances that is physical, too gruesome is getting punched in the face.

Claire Headley [03:28:56] Right.

Marc Headley [03:28:56] So especially because Mark was always the

Claire Headley [03:29:00] rebel that really didn't care about Scientology.

Marc Headley [03:29:03] So clearly I wasn't contributing to de. Escalating that system because whenever. Whenever I would do something, my mom would pull out an L. Ron Hubbard book and be like, let's see what policy says should be done. And I would always be like, oh, you can take that green book and shove it. I don't care what that old dude had to say. And so anytime I was having sort of challenges as a child, it was always Scientology was going to be the parent and the solve this, not her. She's just going to read from this book and tell me all the things I need to do, and if I don't do them well, she'll be the enforcer and give me a whip.

Claire Headley [03:29:45] Scientology was the parent?

Marc Headley [03:29:47] Yeah. That is a big thing. Even in the Sea organization, when you're 14 or 15 and you join the Sea Organization, the Sea Org is now your parent. They take ownership, and even somebody there becomes your legal guardian if you're underage.

Claire Headley [03:30:05] For both of us, when we moved to the headquarters, well, I didn't have.

Marc Headley [03:30:10] By the time I got to the headquarters, I was 16, so I didn't need a guardian there.

Claire Headley [03:30:14] Oh, I did.

Marc Headley [03:30:14] But she did. She needed a guardian.

Claire Headley [03:30:16] My parents signed over guardianship of me when I was 16 to somebody that neither they nor I had ever met who worked at that property.

Marc Headley [03:30:26] Wow. So. So I go. So the very first thing that you do in the Sea Organization is you do what's called the Estates Project Force, and it's called the epf. It's very similar to the rpf, except the RPF is the Rehabilitation Project Force. And if you screw up as a Sea Org member, you gotta go do that project. But when you first start, you do what's called the Estate Project Force, and it's basically you do a lot of hard manual lab labor for many hours a day, and then you study for a certain amount of hours a day, and you study all of the introductory courses that you need to know to get into The Sea Org.

Marc Headley [03:31:07] And this is a very telling thing that a majority of those courses I did while a student at a Scientology school. So you kind of realize that as soon as I got there, I was like, they say it's going to take three months to get through this program. And they're like, there's no way it'll take you three months. You're from a Scientology school. And I'm like, what? And they're like, you already know all this way to study. You already know all the sea work, how everything works. You've already done three of the five courses that need to be done. You've already done them because you did them at school.

Marc Headley [03:31:44] And so I was like, oh, so, like, I've already being. Been being prepped for this at the Scientology school. It's a. And so then you realize that's why the Sea Org recruiters are so heavy on the Scientology kids, because they're already halfway in the door without even being there. They're already kind of. They already know how everything's going to work when they get there.

John Dehlin [03:32:08] The conditions. Some would say brainwashed.

Marc Headley [03:32:10] Yeah. You already primed. Your parents are. You already know the punishment systems. You already know. Know the reward systems. You already know the way to study the technology. You know, you're. You're. You're like their best case scenario. Yeah, they're getting in adults that don't. That have learning disabilities or they're not productive. Those people are going into it because they don't have anything else. They need three hots and a cot. That's what they need.

John Dehlin [03:32:36] Three hot meals.

Marc Headley [03:32:37] Yeah, three hot meals and a place to sleep. So there are a lot of people in the Sea Org from that are foreign nationals. They're escaping a country, and they're going, oh, I'm going to go work at this place. They're going to feed me. They're going to train me on whatever this Scientology stuff is, make the world a better place. And I'm going to get a free visa out of it. I'm going to get a religious R1 visa. What the. This is the best setup ever. Yeah, there. There are a lot of foreign nationals, and even at the International now, more

Claire Headley [03:33:08] so since we've left, but. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:33:10] No. And more and more, the Mormon Church targets people in developing countries. Immigrants.

Marc Headley [03:33:17] They don't know anything about it.

John Dehlin [03:33:19] And they're also. They don't know anything about it. They're also the most vulnerable, the most needy, and they have the most to

Marc Headley [03:33:28] benefit from joining 100% even as bad as it is in the Sea Org, they're like, this ain't nothing like where I came from.

John Dehlin [03:33:35] Yeah, yeah, try after. This is a walk in the park.

Marc Headley [03:33:39] Anyway, so I end up doing this program, and. And usually it does take people several months to do it. I think I did it in two weeks because I'd already done most of it. And in. If you do a certain. If you do a certain collection of courses in Scientology, you get, like, a bonus status that's called fast flow, which means no one can challenge whether or not you know the materials or not. And you have to do those courses. And I did those at. When we went and did that trip for the summer, I did those exact courses in Clearwater at Florida at the best place you could do them. So when I was in the Sea Org, if somebody said, hey, you got to do this, and I go, oh, no, I'm. Fast Flow basically means you just read it, and you're like, I'm done. And you don't do a test.

Claire Headley [03:34:27] You just zip through your studies.

Marc Headley [03:34:28] You don't do any tests. You don't get any exams, nothing. If you did those courses and you read things, you know what they are. Ironically, I am very good at sort of just mass absorbing. If I'm reading, I just kind of just glance through everything, and then you can quiz me, and I can tell you everything about everything. So. So I was very good at bullshitting my way. If somebody did suspect that I wasn't really reading it, I'd be like, go ahead and quiz me. And then they quiz me, and I'd just tell them everything they needed to know, and they'd be like, okay. So. But then I'm like, hey, I'm going. When you're doing all these courses, you find out, how old are you at this point? 15.

John Dehlin [03:35:13] Okay?

Marc Headley [03:35:14] I just had my birthday and turned 15. And another thing they told me is that, look, listen, you will have to go to school on the weekend or maybe one day a week, you'll have to go to school, because as long as you're under 16, you legally have to go to school a little bit, a few hours a week at least. And so I was like, okay, whatever. It's only a year that I have to do that. I don't think I went to school one day when I was 15, not once. I'm a. Wow.

Claire Headley [03:35:44] They. They made the same alleged. The same requirement for me, too. Like, oh. Because I would say, oh, I don't want to join this year, guy. I want to get my high school Diploma. It's like, no, no, no, no, no. We got it all taken care of. I think I went once too.

John Dehlin [03:35:58] I can't believe that's legal. Well, you know, basically a clear cult in the United States can keep kids from getting any real semblance of an education and instead they're allowed to just brainwash the kids for years, disconnect them from their parents.

Marc Headley [03:36:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:36:16] And there's like, I couldn't. And it's totally fine in the United States.

Marc Headley [03:36:19] The thing you think about is, well, who's telling? The kid's not telling.

Claire Headley [03:36:23] Yeah, that's right.

Marc Headley [03:36:24] The parents not telling.

Claire Headley [03:36:25] How would they find out?

Marc Headley [03:36:26] Nobody around them's telling.

John Dehlin [03:36:27] Well, no, I mean, at some point it would get out that this type of behavior is going on. I mean there's enough whistleblowers throughout the

Marc Headley [03:36:35] country like now, now it is a little bit more, they try to do it a little bit more under the radar.

Claire Headley [03:36:43] Okay, so you're saying back down for example though, because we know this from the work through the work we do with the Michael J. Rinder Aftermath Foundation. More recently, what they've started doing is they've developed this two week zippity zip through your high school equivalent program and still join the Sea Org. So they are still doing. It's not even the GED though. It's like a high school proficiency equivalent. That's a two week fast track program.

Marc Headley [03:37:13] But again, it's not technically a ged, but it's some way they figured out to train you to take a test that they know what the answers are going to be. So they train you to take that test and you get a diploma. And then if anybody asks, by the time anybody figures out it out, you'll be 16 and it won't matter. But once you're 16 you can do whatever. Once you're 16 you don't have to go to school.

Claire Headley [03:37:37] I'm sure this, this latest version is not accredited and if somebody, if a government oversight agency looked into it, I'm sure it would be fraudulent. Yeah.

Marc Headley [03:37:50] So anyway, I get into the Sea Org. Once you start doing, they have you do a course. It's called the welcome to the Sea Org course course. And it's basically a bunch of L. Ron Hubbard lectures that he gave in the 60s on the ship the Apollo. When he's saying, hey, he's welcoming these people to the sea organ, he's telling them basically how living and working on a ship is. And that's pretty much what it is. It's him just bullshitting about Seas Sea Stories.

John Dehlin [03:38:18] Weird. They'd be playing those videos in the 90s or whatever.

Marc Headley [03:38:21] Well, these are. These. These are recorded lectures. So you're sitting there in a course room listening to headphones, and you're reading a transcript, and if you come across a word or symbol you don't fully understand, you need to stop and look that up, look it up in a dictionary, use all of the definitions in a sentence. And then. So you listen to these lectures.

John Dehlin [03:38:41] It's got to feel irrelevant and kind of dumb to a 15 year old.

Marc Headley [03:38:44] It's crazy. When you're there, if you have science. Scientology is a study in. What is it called? When you. When you're watching a movie, you have to suspend.

John Dehlin [03:38:59] Suspended reality. Suspended.

Marc Headley [03:39:02] What is it?

John Dehlin [03:39:02] I'm trying to.

Marc Headley [03:39:03] I can't remember the word.

Claire Headley [03:39:04] I'm trying.

Marc Headley [03:39:05] It's basically when you just denounce reality and you.

Claire Headley [03:39:09] Cognitive dissonance.

Marc Headley [03:39:10] Cognitive dissonance. Science is a study in cognitive. Cognitive dissonance, right? Because you're like, these guys are gonna clear the planet. And these are the most ethical group,

John Dehlin [03:39:19] and this is the most righteous, pure man who's ever lived.

Marc Headley [03:39:23] And this guy's like, if you mix

John Dehlin [03:39:25] a little rum in your hot chocolate,

Marc Headley [03:39:26] that'll keep you up for a late night at the helm. And you know, you're just like, what?

Claire Headley [03:39:30] And I was. I remember listening to that, going, oh, he's just joking. Of course, no Scientologist would ever drink alcohol or be, you know, I don't

John Dehlin [03:39:39] know, because alcohol is forbidden.

Marc Headley [03:39:41] Well, you're not allowed to do any type of drug or alcohol within 24 hours of getting counseling.

Claire Headley [03:39:49] So it is incredibly frowned upon. Like, for sure, absolutely. Drugs, way more so than alcohol. But alcohol too. It's just a. It's not a. Yeah, yeah.

Marc Headley [03:40:01] Anyway, so. And that was the other. That's the other reason why a lot of Scientology kids are recruited for the Sea Org. Because some of the main qualificate disqualifications are having done drugs or debts. And obviously, a lot of kids that are the kids of Scientologists, they're not exposed to drugs and alcohol and these sort of things. So most of them have lived a pretty clean life up until this point, which I had that as well. I never drank or smoked or anything like that as a kid. And so. So when you're doing the course, though, there's a policy that you read, which is basically, wherever we tell you you're going, that's where you're going.

Marc Headley [03:40:42] And it don't have anything to do with what you want to Do. It's where we need you to be. And as soon as I read that, I was like, there's no way I'm going to Oklahoma to help people get off drugs.

Claire Headley [03:40:54] And I would just like to add to that. It's not only will you go any. Anywhere and do whatever we say, it's that regardless of training, training means nothing. You will do any job assigned no matter what. So it's like this whole pre. Litmus test to make sure that you're going to toughen up to become a member of the Sea Organization.

John Dehlin [03:41:17] Yeah. And for the record, Mormon missionaries don't get to choose where they go. If you get assigned to Sacramento or Mud Lake, Idaho, you go Venezuela. Or if you get. Yeah. Guatemala or Kinshasa, Africa.

Marc Headley [03:41:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:41:31] You go where you're told to go. Yeah.

Claire Headley [03:41:33] And you pay for it to go there.

John Dehlin [03:41:34] You pay to go there, wherever it is. Like, that's so genius. How do you get people mad.

Claire Headley [03:41:39] Genius.

John Dehlin [03:41:40] To work for you? Yeah, that's genius. Or really hand it to them.

Claire Headley [03:41:45] Yeah.

Teen Years Inside Sea Org Headquarters

Marc Headley [03:41:47] In this case, in the C Organization, you. You basically, when you're doing the estates project for us, that's sort of. It's like the Sea Org boot camp. And so you're doing drills, you do marching. And it's. The Sea Organization is like. We call it Davies Fake Navy.

John Dehlin [03:42:04] It's militaristic. It's militaristic.

Marc Headley [03:42:06] You have rank. Rank and ratings. You have. Oh, you're a PO3. You're a petty officer third class. You're a lieutenant general junior grade.

John Dehlin [03:42:14] Because they'll run Hub Harbor. Was in the Navy, right?

Marc Headley [03:42:16] He was.

John Dehlin [03:42:17] Yeah.

Marc Headley [03:42:17] And he. Yeah, he was discharged. There's controversies. He remember He. Yeah, you in Going Clear. They're talking about. He was bombing an island that they thought was the end. It was Mexico. And they're like, you can't bomb Mexico when you're on a. A U.S. navy boat. That does. That's. That's frowned upon.

John Dehlin [03:42:40] We have friends in Brevity, and we were told he lived in Bremerton, Washington for a short time.

Claire Headley [03:42:44] Yep.

Marc Headley [03:42:46] Anyway, so during.

John Dehlin [03:42:48] Let me just say, what are the. Just for the sake of time, what are the main stories you want to tell about? Kind of those early years, those teen years in the Sea Org. What are the most critical stories that really convey what it was like for you? If you could even reduce it to that.

Marc Headley [03:43:06] Yeah. I mean, during that time. So like I said, I got in because I wanted to do the drug rehab. So as soon as I graduated the program, which is just A few weeks, I went to ABLE International. So those were the recruiters that recruited me were from this association for Better Living and Education, which is a Sea Org organization that Scientology controls. It's all Sea Org members, and it used to be part of the Guardian's office.

Marc Headley [03:43:33] So when I got there, they told me, you're going to be in charge of recruiting recruitment for Sea Org members for able. You're going to be the vice president of personnel, which is a. If you're in a science, if any sort of Scientology organization. They have the workers, they have the department heads, they have the division heads, and then they have the executives. This is a division head executive post at an international organ Sea org organization. I'm 15 years old, and they're like, you're going to be in charge of this entire division, which includes all of the communications in and out of the organization, all our bulk mail promotional activities, recruiting people, keeping the ethics in of all the policing, all of the members of the organization.

Marc Headley [03:44:20] I'm 15, first day on the job. You're in charge of all of these people here. And I failed miserably at that job. I got one person in, and that was my sister, and she was going to the same school I was. And I said, hey, you gotta get over here. I'm gonna get killed if I don't get somebody in. And she joined, and she's still in to this day.

John Dehlin [03:44:41] Wow.

Marc Headley [03:44:43] Anyway, then I was kicked off of that, and I was put into accounts. I became the treasury secretary for that, Vice president for Treasury. And then within a few months of that, I went. I was promoted. So I gotten taken off of the post of the personnel post in disgrace. I think. Think I might have gotten a committee of evidence.

Marc Headley [03:45:07] Like, this guy is horrible. He's a piece of junk. He couldn't do the job, so we'll just put him on another division. I got basically promoted laterally to another division, and I was the only person in accounts and Treasury. So then I did that, and then out of nowhere, some people came from the headquarters, and they said, you're coming to the headquarters.

Marc Headley [03:45:28] And so. So I went and they. In order to go from a lower organization to a higher organization like the international headquarters, you have to get heavy, heavy interrogations. And so you get on an E meter and they ask you lists and lists, and do you have any evil purposes towards L. Ron Hubbard? Do you have any evil purposes towards David Miscavige? Do you have any evil purposes towards Scientology? Do you have any evil purposes? They just. Anything and everything. It's Hundreds and hundreds of questions.

John Dehlin [03:45:57] Lie detector test.

Marc Headley [03:45:57] It's 100%. And if you show any sort of reaction or there's a certain characteristic that the needle makes, then you're guilty or you're innocent. And. And this is. I will tell this because this is a funny story when I. I've been a very big fan of a group called Depeche Mode for my. Ever since I was.

John Dehlin [03:46:18] What do you mean, a group called Depeche Mode? We are children of the 80s, okay?

Claire Headley [03:46:22] So we're with you. We're with you.

Marc Headley [03:46:24] In 1988, I went to a concert that they had at the Rose Bowl. It was called Concert for the Masses. It was the 101st concert of their tour that year, and I was front row center. What was the album that was Music for the Masses.

John Dehlin [03:46:37] Okay.

Marc Headley [03:46:38] It was the very last concert of that tour. And that friend that I was talking about, that I lived with him and I went and his dad was the one who bought us the tickets, front road tickets for this big, giant concert.

John Dehlin [03:46:48] And Scientologists can listen to pop music.

Marc Headley [03:46:50] They are allowed to listen to it, but not at the international headquarters. Depeche Mode is banned at the international headquarters because I was a big proponent of them. And then I became a big, bad suppressive person. So no one is allowed.

Claire Headley [03:47:03] And because Mark used to run the all hands that would get done at the property, and he would always play Depeche Mode. So much so that everybody on that property knew Mark. Mark was the biggest Depeche Mode fan and associated the music with Mark.

John Dehlin [03:47:18] Wait, what's Depeche Mode's best album?

Marc Headley [03:47:21] That's. That's like picking a best kid you can spell. No, that was their first album.

John Dehlin [03:47:26] Not that. No, that's not it.

Marc Headley [03:47:28] No.

John Dehlin [03:47:28] No. What's your favorite Depeche Mode song?

Marc Headley [03:47:32] I don't have a favorite. I have, like. I listen to. Anybody who knows me knows if you ride in my car, you're just going to be listening to Depeche Mode for the entire.

John Dehlin [03:47:39] The answer is somebody. That is the answer.

Claire Headley [03:47:41] Right?

Marc Headley [03:47:42] That's a nice song, but that's not.

Claire Headley [03:47:45] I like a bunch of them. I like Precious. I think that's a good one.

John Dehlin [03:47:49] Give me three. Give me three songs.

Claire Headley [03:47:51] There's some Funny World in My Eyes. That's a nice policy of truth, Mark.

John Dehlin [03:47:56] Give me three songs.

Marc Headley [03:47:57] Okay. To be fair, I like the live versions. More recent live versions. I like Never Let Me Down Again, World in My Eyes, Pain that I'm Used To. There's Enjoy the Silence Live. I like A lot of their new live stuff, that's old songs, but the way they do them live. My favorite thing in the world.

John Dehlin [03:48:17] And your favorite three albums are Violator

Marc Headley [03:48:21] Music for the Masses and maybe Memento Mori, the latest one that they just came out.

Claire Headley [03:48:28] And I would. As long as we're going to talk about Depeche Mode, I will attribute Depeche Model Mode for helping me break free. Because after he had escaped, which we'll get to later, and left me behind, I went home. I was crying. I packed my bag, but I didn't think I was going to be able to make it out. Turned on the CD Depeche Mode is playing, and I just knew there's no way I was going to be able to live without him, and I had to escape.

Marc Headley [03:48:55] Anyway, this all leads back to this interrogation, because for someone who loves Depeche

John Dehlin [03:49:01] Mode, you don't want to talk about him.

Marc Headley [03:49:02] Well, no, because I want to tell you the story circling back to Depeche Mode.

Claire Headley [03:49:07] He'll get there. It is relevant.

Marc Headley [03:49:10] So when you get an interrogation, if the needle has to do something, that's called a floating needle, it has to

Claire Headley [03:49:18] just rhythmic sweep of the dial back and forth.

Marc Headley [03:49:21] It has to move back and forth, like floating.

Claire Headley [03:49:23] I'm stressed just thinking about going into something like this.

Marc Headley [03:49:27] So this is the best thing, thing ever. If your needle is floating, that's good. But there's a dial called the tonearm, and if the needle goes off the dial, they have to use this other a lever on the meter that's called a tonearm. And they have to get the needle. They have to move it to get the needle back on. And if your needle is floating so much that they have to use the tone arm, it's called floating ta. And this is basically in Scientology.

Claire Headley [03:49:59] It's just like a really big.

Marc Headley [03:50:01] In Scientology, it means that you are so awesome right now, that you have. There's no way you could have done anything bad because so do people try

Claire Headley [03:50:10] to get a floating tube?

Marc Headley [03:50:11] Well, so that's the thing they teach you in Scientology, that you are. It's not possible to successfully manipulate the needle of the E meter. You cannot trick it.

Claire Headley [03:50:21] But conversely, you also do a metabolism test at the beginning of each session, and when you take in a deep breath and let it it out, the needle drops if you've had enough sleep and food. So it's just kind of a contradiction. And.

Marc Headley [03:50:32] But either way, if you have a floating needle, then they're basically like, you're good. Nothing's wrong.

Claire Headley [03:50:39] Okay.

Marc Headley [03:50:39] And when they're doing this list of questions. You could have a floating needle on one question, but on another question, not have a floating needle.

Claire Headley [03:50:47] Yeah.

Marc Headley [03:50:48] If your needle is floating through a lot of the questions, it just continues to float, then. Then that means everything they're asking you is not applicable to you at all.

Claire Headley [03:50:57] Okay.

Marc Headley [03:50:58] If you have what's called a floating ta, then it basically means your shit don't even stink. This kid's cleaner than a whistle. And so I formulated very early on, whenever I would get interrogated on the E meter, we just think about that Depeche Mode concert. Front row sent. Listening to. I'm even getting.

Claire Headley [03:51:21] You went to a happy place.

Marc Headley [03:51:22] I'm even getting goosebumps just now thinking about it. Like, I get emotional thinking about that concert and just being there, front row, and growing up with it my whole life, and then being right there, and the band is right there. It was just. For me, it was a very spiritual moment, and I felt a lot of joy in that one moment. I had a lot of turmoil, and that was sort of like. Not that.

Marc Headley [03:51:44] Anyway, I aced the interrogation, and I went straight to the headquarters. And then every time I would get in trouble at the headquarters and I would get interrogated, I would just go. Just lock right into that moment. And I was a person that was in trouble a lot, but never got in really big trouble, because when I would get interrogated, it would turn out it was just a misunderstanding or it was just whatever, because he's fine. And also because I grew up in Scientology, what could I have done that was so bad to get interrogated? I'm not. The things on these lists are insane. Like she said, you know, having sex with another.

Marc Headley [03:52:28] I grew up in la. Okay? I'm. I'm here. I'm a kid. I was a kid. I got here when I was 15. What did I do? Yeah, so. So that was sort of how I got to the international headquarters. And that pretty much lines up where Claire's story is.

Claire Headley [03:52:46] So now you're.

Marc Headley [03:52:47] So now we're at the same place There was in 1990. There was a Come to Jesus moment in the August of 1990 at the International headquarters where there was a flash flood that pretty much destroyed the entire property. It was a disaster.

John Dehlin [03:53:06] In Clearwater.

Marc Headley [03:53:07] No, this is in Gilman Hot Springs.

John Dehlin [03:53:09] Okay. I keep asking that.

Marc Headley [03:53:10] It's in the desert of California. If you know where Hemet Oro Santo. It's out. It's like two hours outside of LA.

John Dehlin [03:53:17] Okay.

Marc Headley [03:53:18] They have a giant 542 acre compound, and it's.

Claire Headley [03:53:22] It's a confidential location within Scientology. So for. No. No Scientologists were allowed to know the address. Our parents weren't allowed to know nothing.

Marc Headley [03:53:31] All of our mail going in is opened and read, and any mail that we send out is left open so that they can read it, and then they seal it when they mail it. Like I said, if there's any kind of magazines or anything that you could subscribe to, if one has a bad article about Scientology, they just throw it in the wastebasket. That month.

Marc Headley [03:53:53] If your family members are like, hey, I don't know what's going on. We haven't seen you. You don't write. You don't get that letter. You get told, hey, your family would like you to write a little bit more. And then when you write to them, you have to write what's called fair roads, good weather. Like, hey, everything's good. Everything's wonderful. My life is amazing. I'm getting lots done. I hope you're good.

Marc Headley [03:54:19] And that's what. You don't talk about any specifics. You don't talk about what you're working on. You don't say anything like it. You're not even allowed to say what you do.

Claire Headley [03:54:27] Right.

John Dehlin [03:54:28] Mormon missionaries are also discouraged from writing about negative. Negative mission experiences. Home.

Marc Headley [03:54:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:54:34] They're told to keep it positive.

Marc Headley [03:54:35] Yeah, good. Good roads, fair weather or fair roads, good weather. Either way.

Claire Headley [03:54:39] Yeah, good roads, fair weather. The idea being nothing. Everything's great. Life is wonderful.

John Dehlin [03:54:44] Don't worry about us.

Claire Headley [03:54:46] Yeah, exactly. Don't worry about us. It's from a Hubbard lecture called can we Ever Be Friends, where it says, don't create antagonism. You know, you just always keep it mellow. And, yes, everything's great.

Marc Headley [03:55:00] Yeah. And then. And the. When I was brought there was in May of 1990. That's when I first got there. And there in August, this flood occurred. And it. And the property had been being renovated for many, many years.

Marc Headley [03:55:25] And one of the reasons was because there was a certain individual named Tom Cruise who was. It was planned that he would be brought there to that property, and David Miscavige would sort of wow him on all the amazing studios and recording facilities and film studios. We had all these different things, and those were at the table, tail end of being done.

Marc Headley [03:55:52] And he was supposed to. I think he was supposed to come and visit the property in, like, September or October of that year. And this flood occurred, and it destroyed the entire property and specifically destroyed the bungalows that had been renovated for Tom Cruise to live in when he was staying at the property, they were fully destroyed. Destroyed, filled with mud. And David Miscavige was so angry at us that we had allowed the flood

Claire Headley [03:56:24] to occur because, of course, that would be emphasis on allowed.

John Dehlin [03:56:29] Because you were like 16, right?

Marc Headley [03:56:32] The entire.

Claire Headley [03:56:33] Pulled it in.

Marc Headley [03:56:33] Yeah. The entire property was assigned a condition of confusion, which is the lowest condition operating existence that you can have in Scientology. Like, you don't even know what's going on.

John Dehlin [03:56:45] I thought you were going to say they declared the property a suppressive property.

Marc Headley [03:56:48] No, but they. But he. He declared many people on the property suppressives that were still in the Sea Org because the.

John Dehlin [03:56:55] The mudslide happened, not because of the

Marc Headley [03:56:57] mud, but because of other things. But either way, the penalties there. Because when with conditions with these are called. There's. There's conditions that are above that are good. There's like normal and not very many.

Claire Headley [03:57:12] There's more lower.

Marc Headley [03:57:13] There's normal.

Claire Headley [03:57:14] There are good ones.

Marc Headley [03:57:15] There's normal. Affluence, power, power, change.

Claire Headley [03:57:18] That's it.

Punishment Conditions, the RPF, and the Hole

Marc Headley [03:57:19] There's four conditions that are okay to be in, and there's formulas to get to that next one. And then there are many that are called lowered conditions.

Claire Headley [03:57:28] Yeah. So there's like eight. Eight or nine lower conditions or considered negative, but below normal is negative. Emergency, danger, non existence, liability, enemy, treason. Confusion. Confusion.

Marc Headley [03:57:42] Yeah, confusion.

Claire Headley [03:57:43] And.

Marc Headley [03:57:44] Oh, and also there is another one.

Claire Headley [03:57:45] Yeah.

Marc Headley [03:57:46] Child.

Claire Headley [03:57:46] Condition of child is the only condition that Hubbard said is lower than a condition of confusion.

Marc Headley [03:57:53] And people at the property were assigned a condition of child.

Claire Headley [03:57:56] Yeah.

Marc Headley [03:57:57] Even though they're like 60 years old.

Claire Headley [03:57:59] Yeah.

Marc Headley [03:58:00] Anyway, so he inside, he blanket. Just assigned the entire property a condition of confusion, which was at the time, I want to say it was about probably 800 people that work there. There's 800 people that work at this one facility, and there's various organizations that are there, but the main organization was a production propaganda organization called Golden Era Productions.

Claire Headley [03:58:24] Yeah, that was the largest organization, but all of the management of all Scientology emanated from that property.

Marc Headley [03:58:32] So Religious Technology center is there. There Golden Era Productions is there. Executive strata, Religious or there's like a. A tech research and technical compilations where they take all of L. Ron Hubbard's writings and they go through it, verify that this is his original recording, and this is where it was modified. We need to go back to this. It's basically where anything that happens or gets disseminated any to any Scientology organization in the world, it's packaged and created at this one facility.

John Dehlin [03:59:08] Let me just ask. I. I forgive me If I missed this. Were either of you there when the rain, the flood happened?

Marc Headley [03:59:15] Yeah, I was.

John Dehlin [03:59:16] You were there?

Claire Headley [03:59:16] I was not there yet.

John Dehlin [03:59:18] Okay, yeah. Was it. Did anyone die? Was it terrifying?

Marc Headley [03:59:21] No one died. It was basically a flash flood. And they were.

John Dehlin [03:59:24] Sometimes flash floods kill people.

Marc Headley [03:59:26] Well, they were fully unprepared for the flood just because the way the property was being designed and maintained and they were oblivious that the. They had. There was a construction division there, an electrical department and a. An engineering department. But they were the. The.

John Dehlin [03:59:45] It's like the flood that happened in Texas at that summer camp. Did you hear about that?

Marc Headley [03:59:49] Yeah, yeah, very similar to that. But it only lasted for maybe 15 minutes.

John Dehlin [03:59:54] And you said it was declared by him. What was the label again?

Marc Headley [03:59:58] We're assigned a condition of confusion.

John Dehlin [04:00:00] And does that mean all the people were assigned?

Marc Headley [04:00:02] Yes, means every single person, no matter what they were doing in their job or their life or their work or what their production performance was, you're now the lowest of the low.

Claire Headley [04:00:13] Because of flood.

Marc Headley [04:00:14] Because of the flood.

Claire Headley [04:00:16] But also too to understand it's not just because it flooded, it's that they weren't prepared in order to stop it. It's a flood. But in the Sea Organization, the theory is that you drill and drill and drill and drill and if you're prepared, then nothing will happen. You will be able to prevent it. Like they should have gotten the sandbags there faster to prevent the.

Marc Headley [04:00:41] That's where it's in Hubbard's mind. And if you're in the Sea Organization, a lot of the things I talk about in the sea org indoctrination is that an emergency is only an emergency unless you're prepared. And if you're not prepared, an emergency becomes a catastrophe. So if you were prepared, you would have turned this emergency into a non emergency, but you weren't. And so it was a catastrophe.

John Dehlin [04:01:05] I'm reminded in Mormon history of Joseph Smith needing to save the members in Missouri that were running afoul of the law. And so he brings a bunch of. He assembles an army and brings them all down to the people of Missouri to rescue them, and they end up being run away. And long story short, he blames the soldiers he recruited for not being righteous enough. And that's why they were. That's why they were kicked out. That's why why they ran away. Even though he told all the people to go to Missouri, he recruited the army to bring them to Missouri. He prophesied that the Missouri town would flourish, and he prophesied that they would rescue the people in Missouri, none of that happens. It's a big catastrophic failure. And instead of just saying, I got it wrong, I gave a bad prophecy.

Claire Headley [04:02:00] Yeah, that's what I was going to say. The inability to self reflect is another huge parallel or to take any responsibility between Joseph Smith, L. Ron Hubbard and David Miscavige.

John Dehlin [04:02:08] You never apologize, never somebody else's fault. It's always the fault of the members.

Claire Headley [04:02:12] Or rather, it's never their fault. It's always somebody else's fault.

Marc Headley [04:02:16] It's funny that you say that because David Miscavige was the one who sort of picked that these bungalows would be the place where the VIP and the pros would stay. He chose it and it just happened to be the place. Place that was in the path of the mountain. Like basically the entire mountain in a floodplain went to this one spot. And the highway that ran through was. There's a major California highway that runs through the property. And on the other side of where this mountain goes to this, those bungalows are right there. So all of the water is going to go to one single and mud and everything else was going to one place. And it was the place that he picked to be the VIP housing.

Claire Headley [04:03:00] Oh, and by the way, his own bedroom was also in that path. So it was not only, that's right, Tom Cruise's bedroom, but also David Miscavige's bedroom. Yeah, it was.

Marc Headley [04:03:12] When that happened, everyone was assigned a condition of confusion. And in order to move up the conditions, you have to do what are called, called formulas. And it's basically just a few steps. And if you do those and it's approved by the, like the police department of the organization, they look at it and they look at it and they go, okay, it's okay, this looks good. And then you get upgraded to the next condition. And then you have to do that. When you get to the condition of liability, like you are a liability now, you've moved up from confusion and enemy and treason to liability. Liability. When you get to liability, you have to petition everybody else on the property to rejoin the group.

Claire Headley [04:03:59] And it has to be approved by majority permission.

Marc Headley [04:04:03] So if you work in Golden Era Productions, Golden Era Productions at the time was probably 300 people. If you worked in Golden Era Productions, you had to get 300. Most of these people, you might not even. You might not even work with them. You might not even know their name because you're not in their division. You don't see them, you don't eat with them, you don't Talk to them. Who cares? You've got to go to all these different people and they have to sign. They have to assign it. They can't just say, yeah, yeah, I'm good. No, they have to sign their name and say, yeah, I'm okaying you to get back in the group.

Marc Headley [04:04:35] So you probably. They would. The people at the time. You have to factor in. There's a lot of other people that might be in liability too. You don't ask them. They're not in the group, they're in liability. You have to ask the members that are not in liability. So it creates this catch 22 because, well, we're all in liability, so who are we going to ask to get out of liability? So just when you do these blanket things, it kind of short circuits how the systems work. Because you're like, well, wait a minute, find out who I am. I'm with a bunch of people that are in confusion. I don't even want to be part

John Dehlin [04:05:11] of any of this. I should be getting.

Marc Headley [04:05:13] But either way, in order to get out of all of the lower conditions, he basically assigned production tasks. And only one of them had anything to do with the flood. Everything else was totally disrelated to the flood. So it was basically a lever for him to pull. Hey, we had a flood. Guess what?

Marc Headley [04:05:36] I'm going to rain down the wrath on you guys. And if you don't do these things, then you're gonna be in the shit for the rest of time. So you better snap too. And one of those things was that the area that I worked into, that I worked in, we manufactured cassettes. And the previous people that had worked in this area, they made 300,000 cassettes that were bad quality. They were overt products.

Marc Headley [04:06:04] And the tapes cost about a buck each. They were very, very expensive. Cassette type tape, metal, TDK tape used, and it cost a dollar. So these guys basically wasted half a million bucks worth of materials and production masters and time and whatever. And they were all sent to the rehabilitation project force except for one person, and that was a girl by the name of Clarice. And Clarice was Shelly Miscavige's sister. And she was the only person left in the manufacturing area that didn't get sent to the religion Religious rehabilitation project for us or declared a suppressive. Some of the people were just declared suppressive and kicked out of the store.

John Dehlin [04:06:46] So, yeah, I'm stunned by the craziness of these rules and these punishments and just the treatment of the most committed, devout members. But ironically, what I've learned about psychology is sometimes in a cult or high demand religion or in an abusive marriage or abusive relationship. Relationship. The worse someone's treated, the less they're respected. The more they're asked to sacrifice, the more committed they become.

Marc Headley [04:07:16] Yeah. Because you're trying to climb back up that ladder. And. And again, there's Sea Org bases in UK and Denmark and Los Angeles and Florida. This is the top.

John Dehlin [04:07:30] Yeah.

Marc Headley [04:07:30] You cannot go anywhere any further than this one facility. You can't get higher than that. That is the top of the top. So if you're there, it's sort of like you. We're gonna ask more of you than you're gonna get asked anywhere else. Because this is the top of the top. This every decision, everything that gets done here is the most important thing you're gonna do today. It's gonna get done here. Yeah, but when that thing happened and he said, you have to.

Marc Headley [04:08:04] The area where I worked, it was the thing, the benchmark that we had to achieve to get the entire property out of this condition was we had to produce 50,000 cassettes every single week. If we could produce 50,000, it had never been done in the history of them making cassette sets. And also because they had made all these bad ones, the machines had to be essentially hot rotted to be the best quality that they could be. And they had to. We. They couldn't be any bad ones. In order for us to make 50,000, all of them had to be amazing to be able to pass.

Marc Headley [04:08:46] And when the day we did that was Thanksgiving of 2000 of 1990. Thanksgiving Day is in Scientology. The work week ends on Thursday at 2pm and everybody in the sea organization has a statistic. And if your statistics this week at Thursday at 2pm are higher than last Thursday at 2pm Then you are what's considered an upstat, an up statistic. If your statistic stick is down, then you are in a lower condition than normal. And you have to do something so that you make more of or more widgets, or more auditing hours or more study hours or whatever it is you do. You have to do more than last week.

Marc Headley [04:09:34] And so we did 50,000 cassettes by Thursday at 2pm and then David Miscavige assembled the entire property for a meeting and said, okay, that just so you guys know the tapes, guys did 50,000. I'm upgrading you all from lower conditions. And hold on to your hats. You can have 45 minutes for dinner

Claire Headley [04:09:58] tonight, for Thanksgiving, Thanksgiving dinner. 45 minutes, which is a big deal when you've been on a 15 minute meal break for a month.

John Dehlin [04:10:06] That's crazy.

Marc Headley [04:10:07] The penalties when we were from that. So from August to November is when everybody was in. In this, if you. There was three to four musters per day. So everybody lines up and every division says we're all present or present or accounted for. This person's on security watch or present or accounted for. This person is with a celebrity or whatever it is. But every single person has to be accounted for.

Marc Headley [04:10:33] If you are late for a muster, you have to do an all night amends project that night. So if. If muster is at 12:30, right after lunch and you arrive at 12:30 and 10 seconds, you're late all night Amends project, you have to work through the night and be on post first thing in the morning.

Marc Headley [04:10:53] If you're late a second time after that, you go to the Rehabilitation Project Force in Los Angeles. They moved the rehabilitation. There used to be a rehabilitation project for us at the end the of base. But a bunch of German media came and were filming them working and doing all this stuff. And people were now exposing that. There was this thing, this reprogramming camp called the Rehabilitation Project Force. So they disbanded it at the international headquarters and they moved it to Los Angeles. So if you were laid a second time, then you would immediately get shipped off to Los Angeles. Could be the Rehabilitation Project force.

Marc Headley [04:11:31] Could take two or three years. It could take take 15 years for you to finish that program. So if you were late once all night amends, if you were late twice, you went to the Rehabilitation Project Force. And I would say, I don't know, maybe 10 or 15 people ended up going to the RPF during that. Or they were just, they just got kicked out of the C organization altogether. They just said, I'm not going to the RPF and I'm not going to do anything, Anything. I'm gonna leave and there's nothing you can do to stop me. Then those people would usually get given $500 and just kicked in the ass and said, go do whatever you're gonna do.

Marc Headley [04:12:11] Over the years, David Miscavige was basically figuring out that people were trying to get assigned to the RPF because it was better than staying at the international headquarters. Like, you know, you're going to sleep every night, you know you're going to be in la, you know you're going to get fed, you know, you're. It's like this, that's better. Doing the rehabilitation project, which was always like the worst, too gruesome to get assigned to the rpf, the RPF was now a vacation compared to working at the park by.

Claire Headley [04:12:47] By relative comparison.

Marc Headley [04:12:49] So when he would be yelling at people, he'd be like this and this and this. And the person would be like, I don't know, sir, I just think I need to go to the rpf. He'd be like. He'd be like, no way. Now I know that the RPF is no longer a too gruesome. No one's going to the rpf. You're staying here. I'm going to figure out how to make this place worse than the rpf. And. And you don't get to take a break from this. You're. It's. This is it. And that is about the time when this thing called the Hole was created at the property. And that is a place that you don't leave. You get locked in a room and you eat there, you sleep there, you work there. And that's where all of the big key executives from all of Scientology were all in this place.

Claire Headley [04:13:43] Well, ironically, originally that was the building where their ARM offices were, this double wide trailer. And then. And we're talking about management executives for running Scientology on Earth. But David Miscavige considered that all these people were incapable and non compliant and counterintention and all these other things. So he converted. That's. He essentially decided. Started declaring management executive suppressive people and then restrained them to what's referred. Became referred to as the whole, which Mike Rinder talks about in his book and Next Level of Punishment and Two Gruesomes.

Marc and Claire Meet at Headquarters

John Dehlin [04:14:29] All right, so I think. I think I have a good sense for kind of both of your individual experiences leading up to you actually meeting any other stories from each of you that are kind of crucial, that need to be told before we talk about how you met.

Marc Headley [04:14:47] Well, I did think about something that you had said earlier and something we were talking about where you, when you're in Scientology, you're growing up in Scientology, there's always this sort of idea that the, the elders or the executives or the people that are high up in Scientology. Scientology have these like kind of these powers that they talk about in Scientology that you'll get cause over matter, energy,

John Dehlin [04:15:13] space and time, special powers kind of thing.

Marc Headley [04:15:14] Yeah, like, kind of like superpowers. You can move things with your mind, you know, things you can locate things that people can't locate. And one of the things very early on at my time at the property was that David Muscat Savage, the leader of Scientology, would come down to our area all the time. Every day, he would come to where we were making the cassettes of all of the subjects that he was very interested in and that he liked to deal in. Audio visual was one of his favorite because he used to be a cameraman when L. Ron Hubbard was. Had the film crew, he was a cameraman on L.

Marc Headley [04:15:52] Ron Hubbard's shoot team. So he was. He was a camera guy who then became an audio guy. So he would always be in the audio and video production areas, but he would come down every single day, and it was sort of like, everything has to be perfect. Everything has to be clean. Everybody has to be on their best behavior. We've got to be working when he comes in. You can never not be working when he comes in.

Marc Headley [04:16:18] And it was always like, oh, my God. And no one ever called him Dave or David. David Miscavige. It was always cob, chairman of the board. And you never even said chairman of the board. You just said, cob is coming, or COB's in the building, or it was like panic stations if he was in the building. And there were many, many stories and folklore that went around of things. He'd walk in, and he'd see something, and he would go, like, what's that over there? And then you'd open the drawer, and there'd be something that wasn't supposed to be in there. And then everybody would get in trouble.

Marc Headley [04:16:52] And that. He just had this sixth sense kind of thing because he was the head Scientology guy. You go, well, yeah, that's what happens when you get that high. You get this. Well, when I was working, making the cassettes, I was on the night shift, and we would have to walk by a whole bunch of the cinematography division to go to where the dining hall was. And we would go in the middle of the night. There's nobody else there, just the people that are on night shift in the entire property. That was 800 people. There might be 20 people on the property in the middle of the night.

Marc Headley [04:17:28] And David Miscavige lived on the property, so he would be up and around sometimes late at night. And one day, we were walking past the cinematography division, and normally when he would. Would come into your area, he'd have five or six people with him, maybe 10 or 15 people with him. He was all by himself, and he was in the cinematography division. And we could see because the lights are on in there. We could see in, but he couldn't see us out in the dark. And he was digging through all the drawers in the cinema. He was Just going through all the offices, pulling the drawers and looking in them. And we kind of walked by and we kind of stood there for a second and he was just rummaging through all these desks.

John Dehlin [04:18:08] Desks.

Marc Headley [04:18:09] We thought, that's so weird. Anyway, we just kept going. We went to midnight rations called mid rats. We went to mid rats. We went back to our workspace, we worked all night. And then we would sleep during the day, so a bus would take us to our apartments. We would sleep during the day. And then at dinner time, right before dinner, we'd get picked up and brought into the property. And as soon as we got to the property for dinner, there were people running around and there was flurry of activity. And it was like, what's going on? What's going on? It's like, oh, everyone is white gloving all of their offices.

Marc Headley [04:18:49] And there was a huge flap during the day today. And we found out that in the cinematography division, David Miscavige had showed up to do a surprise inspection. And what he had done is the night before, he had gone through all their desks and rummaged through everything looking for anything that was contraband or illegal. And then in the middle of the day, he just showed up. And then he was able to just literally walk into this person's work area and zero in on every single day drawer that had contra. Like, it was a pair of dirty shoes in one person's desk and maybe some magazines and another person's desk.

Marc Headley [04:19:38] But he opened the two desks that had this thing in it. And everybody was like, oh, my God, he has this extra ability and that we're being told the story. Like, he just walked in and he's talking to the group of people and he said, hey, what's in that drawer right there? And then they opened the drawer and there was a pair of stinky, dirty shoes. And you would. That's like, come on, you don't. Nobody does that. And then in somebody else's drawer there was a magazine that was forbidden. And everybody's like, he opened two drawers and he knew and those two drawers were the things.

Marc Headley [04:20:15] And they opened every other drawer in the place, and none of them had it. And we're. And I'm sitting there going like, wait a minute. He was digging through all those drawers last night when we were on the way to the meal. And I'm thinking to myself, is that it? That's the hack. You just go in in the middle of the night while everyone's asleep, and you just dig through everything and then the next day you show up and you're suddenly, you have extra powers.

John Dehlin [04:20:41] So have you heard the story of Napoleon?

Marc Headley [04:20:44] No.

John Dehlin [04:20:45] So I was told once that Napoleon, to engender confidence with his true troops, he would find out the name of just a random soldier by asking. And then imagine thousands of soldiers lined up. He would just be riding along and he would stop and address one of the soldiers by name and would be the one that he was told beforehand what his name would be. But it made all the soldiers feel like he knew them each by name.

Marc Headley [04:21:19] Yes.

John Dehlin [04:21:20] Does that make sense?

Claire Headley [04:21:21] Totally, absolutely.

John Dehlin [04:21:23] That sort of thing.

Marc Headley [04:21:24] So that was sort of the very first little peek behind the curtain. And I wasn't supposed to see it, and nobody else saw it, but I knew. Well, he's not. And the funny thing was, is people, when they would tell that about those kind of stories about David Miskevin, they would say Hubbard did the same thing. He'd walk in and he'd go into the galley and he'd open up a drawer and there'd be some rotten food in there. Or. And I go, what if that's what that guy was doing? He was doing the same.

John Dehlin [04:21:57] He was.

Marc Headley [04:21:57] They were on a ship in the middle of the ocean. He could have been walking around the whole ship all night long. Nobody would have known. So immediately I sort of had like this. I don't want to say it was dissent, but I knew that there was. I knew there was a little bit of sleight of hand and trickery that was making this guy, this guy that's all so powerful, knowing. I kind of know that he's not. Because I saw him, what he was doing the night before. So it's really just a trick he does. And nobody knows that that's what he's doing. And the other guy, great thing about it is that when he had. When he goes somewhere, he has this entourage. So not even his entourage was with him.

John Dehlin [04:22:42] Yeah.

Marc Headley [04:22:42] So they don't know either. So then I thought even the people that are closest to him don't know this is how he's doing the trick.

John Dehlin [04:22:50] That's interesting.

Marc Headley [04:22:51] So. But there were many kind of instances of that over the years. And my job was for many years was manufacturing. Then I worked in film production and video production and event production.

John Dehlin [04:23:04] Is that kind of propaganda stuff or.

Marc Headley [04:23:06] No, 100. They have seven events a year. Scientology holds seven, like, convention type events where basically all the Scientologists in that geographical area are sort of expected that they need to come. And if they don't show their face there. Then it kind of is like, we haven't seen this guy in two or three.

John Dehlin [04:23:26] One in Europe, one in Latin America, that kind of thing.

Marc Headley [04:23:29] More US And England. But they have one in Florida, one in Los Angeles. Sometimes they'll do one in England, sometimes they'll do one in Denmark, but most of the time they're either in LA or Florida or England, those three places. And then they also that cruise ship in the Caribbean. They have a week of events there every year where David Miscavige Savage brings all of the top, top donors. So if you haven't given a million or more, you don't get to go. So the kind of guy, and even now, it might even be the guys who've given 10 million or above, are the ones that are coming in.

Claire Headley [04:24:09] Yeah, the events are not location driven, they're theme driven. So the New Year's event, for example, is held in Los Angeles, but then broadcast to all organizations elsewhere. Then they have Auditor's Day, L. Ron Hubbard's birthday.

Marc Headley [04:24:28] The anniversary of the publication of dianetics is in May 9, and then June,

Claire Headley [04:24:33] the one that's on the cruise ship is commemorating the anniversary, the maiden and maiden voyage of that ship.

John Dehlin [04:24:42] And so those. You said seven events a year.

Marc Headley [04:24:44] Basically, it's about. It's. It's loosely, because that one they do in Curacao is really a week of events. So technically it's like seven events on its own, but they're kind of mini events. But yes, seven major conventions. And for that, we might produce two or three videos for each event. And what we do is we go to an organization or a prison that's doing a Scientology criminal rehabilitation, the criminal program, or we go to a drug facility that's using the Narconon program, the Scientology drug. And. Or we're do one for. They have a sort of a business arm of Scientology that's called the Wise Group, and it's the World Institute of Scientology Enterprises.

Marc Headley [04:25:32] So any company that is owned by a Scientologist or is Scientology run, they're a member of Wise, they pay a membership fee. And as part of that, they have to kind of run their business using Scientology principles and teachings. And if there is a dispute within the business or with another Scientology person or business, then they are the mediator between them. And usually whoever gives more money to Scientology is the winner of that mediation. That's how that works.

Front Groups, Celebrity Involvement, and Inflated Numbers

John Dehlin [04:26:10] And so were you always filming, like, testimonials of people that got clean from drugs or had successful businesses that you could play those in? The Rah Rah Annual. Annual meetings to make everyone feel excited that they were part of something meaningful.

Marc Headley [04:26:26] Basically proof that Scientology is doing all the good things they say they're doing.

John Dehlin [04:26:32] Yeah.

Marc Headley [04:26:33] And. But when you're doing those, there's a lot of movie magic.

John Dehlin [04:26:39] Well, let me just ask, like, we all want to hate on cults.

Marc Headley [04:26:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:26:44] But let me be fair. Like. Oh, I'll give you an example. So I'm at Microsoft now. We're talking 25 years ago, and I meet an ex Mormon woman. It was about one of the first ex Mormons I'd ever met. She's working at Microsoft, and I'm asking her about her life, and she says, I have a son that got hooked on drugs, and believe it or not, he's in a Scientology rehab, because as far as she knew, 25 years ago, that was the best rehab out there. So do your best to be fair. Are these programs sometimes really helping people?

Marc Headley [04:27:19] Well, I would say that, but if you are doing drugs and you're addicted to drugs and then you get off of drugs and you no longer do drugs, then that's a good thing. Yeah, that's a. I would say that's a no. Yeah, I'll say that is considered a successful individual. That that happened to that. I would consider that a success. Scientology likes to say. Say that they have. I can't remember what it is, but it's like a 90% success rate, which is.

Claire Headley [04:27:58] They claim they have a 90%.

Marc Headley [04:28:00] Yeah, they'll say we have a 90% success rate on keeping people that come in on drugs, that stay off of drugs. We have a 90% or whatever it is. Let's just say it's 90. It might be more. It might be a little less. In the drug rehabilitation universe, 30% would be amazing. 90% to them is like. Well, that's, of course, absolutely false, because it's not true. Nobody has that success.

John Dehlin [04:28:28] So they over inflate their.

Marc Headley [04:28:29] They 100% overinflated. But this is the thing. In order to get that person off drugs, they do Scientology courses and Scientology practices that were never designed to get people off drugs. They do the purification rundown, which is meant to rid your body of any residual drugs that might be in your body so that you can then do Scientology counseling. They do a course that. It's called ups and downs in life, but it really teaches you about pts people and suppressive people and to stay away from.

John Dehlin [04:29:04] Let me just say, if I'm a parent of a kid on drugs. Yeah, I don't Give a crap what they're learning if they get off drugs.

Claire Headley [04:29:11] But you would care if. Has the program been studied medically? Has it been scientifically proven? Is it even safe to give kids on drugs huge amounts of niacin, up to 5,000 milligrams a day that is provably potentially carcinogenic? Like, there are no studies that show that the claims made by this purification rundown are anywhere remotely true.

Marc Headley [04:29:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:29:40] So what do you think? If you had to guess what the actual success rate is of these drug programs?

Marc Headley [04:29:46] I would say it's probably about 10%.

John Dehlin [04:29:48] So a third of a really successful program.

Marc Headley [04:29:50] And maybe not even that, because the thing that happens at these Narconon facilities, and we did, we shot at these places so you would see it when people graduate. So I come in, I'm addicted to, let's say the person's addicted to Adderall. They come in and they do the program and then they stop taking Adderall. As soon as they graduate the program, they're like, this is amazing. I'm clean. I want to help other people. That person immediately becomes an employee. His only qualification to become an employee at the drug rehab is that he was a drug addict. That is 99% of their employees are former addicts that can't get a job anywhere else because they were a drug addict. And now they want to help other people get off drugs so they become a Narconon employee.

John Dehlin [04:30:41] It's like Landmark Forum uses former Landmark Forum participants.

Claire Headley [04:30:44] Yes. And I don't think that they've actually studied the effectiveness of it. I do know, yes, they have had some, I can name a few people that I know that they came in because they, they were on drugs or struggling addicts and they got off. But when you put someone in an isolated and highly controlled environment, what's getting them off drugs? Is it the purification rundown or is it the environment? No, no, no. What does that have to do with it?

John Dehlin [04:31:13] I mean, on the one hand, placebo effects, real.

Claire Headley [04:31:16] Right.

John Dehlin [04:31:17] But also, who cares, like if it gets you off drugs? I don't care.

Claire Headley [04:31:22] So.

John Dehlin [04:31:22] So like, evidence based is always the best, for sure. And you know, a lot, you know, non evidence based treatments that cause harm are terrible.

Claire Headley [04:31:34] Yes.

John Dehlin [04:31:35] Benign. Non evidence based treatments that have, you know, placebo effect that lead to healing. I'm okay with that.

Marc Headley [04:31:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:31:44] But I guess what I also hear you saying is there's harm. It's false advertising rising because their effective rates, effectiveness rates are over inflated and you end up in a cult.

Claire Headley [04:31:55] That's right.

John Dehlin [04:31:56] It's exploitative.

Claire Headley [04:31:58] Yes, exactly. It's one of the many ways. It's one of the many front groups that they use to get you in the door.

Marc Headley [04:32:07] The key statistic is they have less and less Narconons every year. Year compared to what they had 30 years ago. There used to be Narconons all over the United States, and now they're. They're barely holding on and staying. And they've had. They had. There's that facility that I told you about in Oklahoma. They moved that to another Indian reservation in Oklahoma, and they had three deaths within three months.

John Dehlin [04:32:38] Oh, so it's become a liability.

Marc Headley [04:32:39] Probably. They had. Not only did they have non qualified personnel supervising. Oh, that's the other thing. There's no detox. It's cold turkey. You come in, you're addicted to drugs. They don't. There's no procedure to detox you. There's no Scientology procedure on how to detox somebody from drugs. So they just say, don't take drugs while you're here. And that's how you detox. It's just cold turkey. Some people can't go through that depending on what drug they were on or what. That doesn't work physically for their body. It's not safe to do it that way. Or if they are doing that, they shouldn't do other things that they are doing at the Narconon facilities. But regardless of that, the only reason I even brought this up was because when we would shoot there, sometimes there wouldn't be anybody there. Doing the prisoners program. Doing the Narconon program.

John Dehlin [04:33:37] Yeah.

Marc Headley [04:33:38] So the staff would dress up like they were participants in the program, and we'd shoot the full program.

John Dehlin [04:33:46] Oh, so when you did these testimonial

Marc Headley [04:33:49] videos, we have to spice them up. We got.

John Dehlin [04:33:51] Because we're like a fraud.

Marc Headley [04:33:52] Yeah. We can't show nobody here. And that's the same thing we did with the Scientology organization.

John Dehlin [04:33:57] Okay. So it's making members feel like they're controlling, contributing to a cause that's super worthwhile when there's nothing. When it was kind of fraudulent.

Marc Headley [04:34:07] Yeah. And you. And so you see that we didn't always have to do that, But I'd say 75% of the time it was like, why are there only five people? You guys dress up, take off your uniforms, put on some civilian clothes, and get in here. Or we would. Sometimes we. We would just get people off the street. Hey, do you want to be in a video?

Marc Headley [04:34:30] You're in la. Everybody wants. Everybody wants to be in a Video. Everybody wants to be on tv. You say, hey, will you mind signing this release form? We're just. We need to. We need some extra people. And then those people would be in a Scientology course room studying or going into an Applied Scholastics education facility.

Marc Headley [04:34:53] And they're just somebody that happened to be walking down Sunset Boulevard while we were shooting. So there was a lot of that over the course of many years of shooting those videos. But then the only other thing I wanted to say just in terms of that was sometimes when we were pre producing these stories that would get shown at one of these events. So David Miscavige is the MC of all these events. He gets on the stage, at the podium, and he runs the whole event. And he'll tell little. Little factoids and little tidbits throughout his speech.

Marc Headley [04:35:30] And so somebody will write in and then say, hey, we have a Dianetics seminar that we're running down here in Mexico, and we've got 25 people that are coming in for this thing. And so then a little blurb gets written up, and then that gets put into a speech for David Miscavige. And then the speechwriters get a hold of that and they go, well, we can't say 25.

Marc Headley [04:35:57] We could say dozens, dozens of new people. Because a dozen is 12, two dozens is 24. It's 25, it's dozens. So dozens of new people are coming in every day? Well, no, it was those amount of people are coming in every month.

Marc Headley [04:36:14] Well, did it say month? Did they say when? We'll say a day. The speechwriter's trying to spice it up, cuz he's pitching this to David Miscavige to put into his speech. So then David Miscavige gets it. He goes, dozens. We're trying to clear the planet. Okay, so maybe we say. Maybe we'll say scores or he'll punch it up.

John Dehlin [04:36:36] Up.

Marc Headley [04:36:36] When it gets to him, he punches it up. And so then when the event happens and he's giving the speech, he would literally be like, there's hundreds of people coming into this Mexican organization. So it just. It basically each person that touches it just puts a little extra spin on it. And that's pretty much how everything goes for these events.

Marc Headley [04:37:02] They take a. They make a mountain out of a molehill for the purpose of deceiving the members. And that's where you go, like, it was similar. You were telling that you were talking about, you know, on a mission. Maybe you witnessed these guys are baptizing drunks or children without their parents. And it's sort of like that flavor of, hey, guys, you kind of are lying in these things, and none of this stuff's happening. But the worst part is that in a lot of these events, we're talking about a Scientology organization. There's Scientologists that work there that are in that place, and they know that these are lies because they work there.

Marc Headley [04:37:51] And they're like, we didn't tell you that there was hundreds of people coming in. We said there was 25 people we got in a month.

John Dehlin [04:37:57] Yeah, no, I get it.

Marc Headley [04:37:58] And so. And so they're writing in after events saying, hey, I don't know who put this in the speech or did this, but that was a lie. That never happened.

John Dehlin [04:38:08] Yeah.

Marc Headley [04:38:09] And then those people are getting in trouble, or those people are being like, hey, you know, maybe something got mixed up here or there. But it's sort of a. They. It's basically a widespread issue where they. They exaggerate.

John Dehlin [04:38:26] Yeah.

Marc Headley [04:38:27] For the greater good. And that's the overlying excuse for everything, is that it's for the greater good. We're gonna get more people into Scientology. And so just telling a little white lie about how many people is not bad in the overall scheme of things, if that gets more people in Scientology or if it keeps them members from leaving.

John Dehlin [04:38:51] Yeah. In the Mormon church, they claim 17 million members, but we all know there's probably only 4 million that actually attend worldwide. The overwhelming majority leave, and, you know, you never hear from them again. But the church still boasts 17 million. And then once. Once the activity rates started falling and people started defecting with the Internet, the church stopped publishing its statistics.

Marc Headley [04:39:17] Yes. Scientology has the exact same thing they used to claim. For many, many years. They claimed they had a million members, and then it went up to millions of members. And for most of the people that leave the Sea Org, they keep track of everything meticulously. And most Sea Org members that have left within the last decade or so, give the estimate that there's between maybe 25 and 20,000 active Scientologists in the world. In the world?

Claire Headley [04:39:47] Yes.

John Dehlin [04:39:47] 25,000.

Claire Headley [04:39:48] Yes.

Marc Headley [04:39:49] It's not that many.

Claire Headley [04:39:51] Best case. And that's best case scenario, what was the peak?

John Dehlin [04:39:55] What was its peak?

Marc Headley [04:39:56] Probably in the 80s. I would say in the 80s, they probably had about 100,000. And that's another interesting fact, because everything in science, Scientology, is measured by a statistic. Every single person that works in a Scientology organization or in the Sea Organization has a statistic. And since 1986, the International Statistics of Scientology have been going down, and they kind of just kind of mosey down. But in 1996, David Miscavige released a new program that was called the Golden Age of Tech. And it was basically, he revamped all of L. Ron Hubbard's courses and the counseling technology and everything so that it would be much faster. And in actual effect, it became much, much longer and more painful and arduous for members to do, and much more

Claire Headley [04:41:02] expensive since they had to redo all the training that they'd already done because it had now been revamped.

Marc Headley [04:41:08] So basically, anybody who was trained to any level in Scientology, that was erased. And you start from the beginning again, and you had to pay to redo it would be like me telling you, hey, this car you've had is really good, but it has to get. It's been recalled. You can't drive it.

John Dehlin [04:41:25] It's like, dig a big hole now. Fill it up now. Dig the hole again.

Marc Headley [04:41:28] Yes, exactly. You know, anyway, so they. So when that happened, and you can see this in. In Scientology, you are. It's crushed into your skull, into your activities, into everything you do. Statistics are the key to everything, and if the statistic goes up, you find out why, and you do more of that. If the statistic goes down, down, you find out why and stop doing that. And in 1996, when David Miscavige released this new Golden Age of Tech, all of the Scientology statistics internationally have been going down since that time. They've never, ever recovered from 1996.

John Dehlin [04:42:18] Given how sacred they view L. Ron Hubbard's instruction and rules to be, I'm surprised Miscavige had the courage to try and change anything.

Marc Headley [04:42:31] Well, this is how he does it. And this. You only would know this if you worked at the international headquarters, because that's where everybody is that knows what all the original L. Ron Hubbard writings are and where he gave this lecture. Most of the.

Marc Headley [04:42:48] Most of the policies and most of the things that L. Ron Hubbard wrote were during the 50s to the late 60s. And then there's just a smattering of things throughout the 70s and maybe into the 80s, but most of it's throughout the 50s through the late 60s. And there were typists and transcriptionists and people that recorded it, and then they transcribed, and then we never found the original recording. And then. So they've spent decades and decades finding all of the originals and transcribing them exactly how he said it. And this is another kind of part where you see behind the curtain, because when you listen to one of these lectures, it's very polished and it sounds great and everything, but L.

Marc Headley [04:43:35] Ron Hubbard recorded it himself originally, and it took 1,000 hours to make his recording listenable. It was horribly recorded. It was horribly mixed. It was horribly mic'd. It was. But he was an expert in all these things, so how did he record such a horrible recording? And then you find out he had no idea what he was doing, but he professed to be an expert in all these fields. And then you find out they're removing coughs and racist statements and farts and burps and slurs. And so then you're going like, whoa, wait a minute. And there's many instances where he was very racist. There's actually a few recordings that are still floating around where he's talking, calling Asian people by a certain name or calling black people by a certain name.

Marc Headley [04:44:30] And these are out there. But he left instructions that all those things should be edited out of those lectures before they're manufactured and print out. But then you find out David Miscavige has changed something. And you're like, well, how can he change it? Well, then he'll go to one of these events and he goes, well, we found out that there was a. Somebody did a transcript, and they altered the transcript and they added things to in that weren't in the original recording. And so we had to take a bunch of that out because it wasn't in. But really, that never happened. He said something that contradicted another thing that he said.

Marc Headley [04:45:10] And so something has to go away. And the only reason you can get rid of it is if it wasn't really L. Ron Hubbard who did that. And so a lot of times when Dave changes something thing, there's a whole explanation on what. And the last time that he did this, he redid all of L. Ron Hubbard's books, all of them, and some of them were edited and a lot of things were taken out.

Marc Headley [04:45:37] And the reason that he gave to the Scientologists at the event was, well, there was like semicolons and periods and that whoever edited the book didn't understand the age English language. So they were adding and taking things away. And so we cleaned all that up. And it's like, that's why that troublesome paragraph and that one book just disappeared because of misplaced commas and periods.

Marc Headley [04:46:02] But either way, he's been doing this since the 80s. He would say, oh, we did a. We went through all of. They call L. Ron Hubbard's source. We went through all of the source materials and we isolated all of the original L. Ron Hubbard writings. And that's what's in this new course that's been streamlined and all this other stuff. But the real and most of the

Claire Headley [04:46:26] courses were not written by Hubbard in the first place. Since the 70s, he had a compilations unit that would put together the actual steps of the courses, and those would get approved by Hubbard, but were not written by him. So Miscavige uses that as well as. As a justification by which he's just rearranging the steps to train Scientologists.

Marc Headley [04:46:50] Yeah. So in 1990. Well, actually, 1990, when Tom Cruise was just getting into Scientology for real, he went to the international headquarters, and they had to have somebody for him to audit. And because I had never really done any auditing in Scientology, I had done some courses and training things in Scientology, but not really any auditing. So then I was to be his guinea pig that he would practice on. And when he was doing that, they brought a whole team of the people that made the courses to be the supervisor for Tom Cruise so that he could do the courses exactly the way they were supposed to be done.

Marc Headley [04:47:35] And there's a film that teaches you how to do certain procedures in Scientology, and they got the guy who played the star of the film to work with Tom to do those procedures. So they basically took out any possibility of anybody doing anything wrong with Tom to be there for that. And then, you see. And then Tom didn't want to think like they were treating him special, so they brought in Kirstie Alley also. Kirstie Alley is somebody who came in through narcissist working on. She had a very horrible cocaine habit. And because she got into Scientology, she was able to not do cocaine. But then she became a Scientologist, and then she just did everything the Scientology way.

Marc Headley [04:48:19] And although she wasn't doing cocaine, there was other things in her life that didn't survive Scientology, like her marriage and, you know, her career and other things. Things.

John Dehlin [04:48:30] Do we know why John Travolta joined? Was there.

Marc Headley [04:48:32] John Travolta joined because he had. It was either his girlfriend or a new. A wife that he had just some sort of relationship, and she passed away, and. And that was. That wrecked him. And then somebody scooped him up. And there's a thing in Scientology that's called life repair. And if you have a horrible. Or some tragedy or some horrible, horrible thing that's happened in your life, they. The way they isolate this is. They call it your ruin. So whatever's got you in this state that your life is horrible, they figure out a way for you to get past that, and that is an introductory step to Scientology is life repair.

Claire Headley [04:49:17] Yeah. That's how they. Yeah. Finding the ruin is how they prey on vulnerable people, find out what is really destroying their life, and use that to get them into Scientology. Everybody does life repair as one of the introductory services when you're becoming a Scientologist, and then for a few.

Marc Headley [04:49:37] Born in it. I never did that.

Claire Headley [04:49:38] I did.

Marc Headley [04:49:39] You did. Oh, I never did it.

John Dehlin [04:49:41] And then do we know what got Tom Cruise hooked?

Claire Headley [04:49:44] He had. Tom Cruise became interested in Scientology through. Yeah, through Mimi Rogers, who was a second generation Scientologist, but he had always struggled with dyslexia. And they offered that they could provide a solution to that, allegedly.

John Dehlin [04:50:03] And I guess the south park episode alleges that Tom Cruise was secretly gay. And I think also people have made the same types of inferences about John Travolta. Possibly.

Marc Headley [04:50:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:50:15] How is that processed by people in and out of Scientology?

Marc Headley [04:50:18] Well, first of all, it's very, very well known within Scientology that what. That John Travolta. May. That. May there be maybe some truth to that rumor about John. The rumor about Tom is not unfounded, but it is his.

Marc Headley [04:50:38] The thing that David Miscavige. This is another very sensitive subject. But anyone who gets counseling in Scientology, there are cameras and microphones in the counseling rooms, and they record everything. And David Miscavige loves to watch those and dish about things that come up in those confessions. And so before him and Tom were best buds. Whenever Tom's sessions would get recorded and he'd say things, Dave would tell people about him and joke about him and be like, he's worried people are going to think he's gay.

Marc Headley [04:51:15] What a stupid thing to worry about. Or. Or anything of that nature. And. And even when Tom Cruise found out that there were the. The sessions, that all sessions get recorded,

John Dehlin [04:51:27] they don't tell you ahead of time.

Marc Headley [04:51:28] No, no, no, no, they don't.

Claire Headley [04:51:31] They didn't. In the years that we were there. Maybe they.

Marc Headley [04:51:34] Now you would secretly record people 100.

John Dehlin [04:51:38] Oh, my goodness.

Marc Headley [04:51:39] Audio and video.

John Dehlin [04:51:40] So Tom Cruise got. Well, allegedly.

Marc Headley [04:51:43] Well, no, no, no, no.

Claire Headley [04:51:44] I was there. So Tom Cruise, when he was being brought back into Scientology by Marty Rathbun in this was in the early 2000s. So right around the time he divorced Nicole Kidman, Marty Rathbun was deputy to David Miscavige and was bringing. Was doing counseling with Tom Cruise. Tom. Tom specifically stated he did not want to be recorded. And so instead they removed the cameras and Put in hidden cameras and recorded.

Marc Headley [04:52:12] We just moved him to the hidden camera room. So some rooms you can see the cameras. Yeah, some rooms you can see the cameras. And they tell you these are for quality control purposes.

John Dehlin [04:52:23] So they did record Tom Cruise.

Claire Headley [04:52:26] Absolutely.

Marc Headley [04:52:26] In this instance, he moved to the room that had the smoke detector cam and the mirror cam and the picture.

John Dehlin [04:52:31] So that's the recording.

Marc Headley [04:52:32] 100%.

Claire Headley [04:52:33] Yeah. And so those videos. It was cassette tapes at the time.

Marc Headley [04:52:37] Well, vhs.

Claire Headley [04:52:39] Sorry, vhs. It was VHS tapes that would record the session of Tom Cruise, and then that VHS tape would go with his folder to get reviewed by people in Religious Technology center and including David and Shelley Miscavige.

Marc Headley [04:52:57] So they would watch his confessions or his sessions in Scientology, and then based on that, they would social engineer what we're going to do with him to make him stay in Scientology.

John Dehlin [04:53:11] So is there any solid confirmation that y' all are aware of that Tom Cruise admitted to being gay in those.

Marc Headley [04:53:18] No, no, no. His thing was that he didn't want people to think that he was gay.

John Dehlin [04:53:23] Okay.

Marc Headley [04:53:24] Yeah, because he was going to join. He was going to be a priest. That's what his path was when he was young.

John Dehlin [04:53:30] Catholic priest.

Claire Headley [04:53:31] Yeah.

Marc Headley [04:53:31] He wanted to become a priest, and he was going to go to the seminary, and all these things were going to happen. And then, if you believe everything, he then got in. I think it was Taps or some movie he was in. And then he became an actor, and then that's where he went. But he did struggle with dyslexia. And so his first wife, Mimi Rogers, she was a second generation Scientologist, and even their marriage, when he did a movie, he did this. He saw Nicole Kidman, and I think it was a movie called Dead Calm. And then he was like, oh, we should get her for Days of Thunder.

Marc Headley [04:54:10] That is, when I met him, was. They had just finished shooting Days of Thunder, and so him and Nicole were a thing. But Mimi, it was basically like, hey, he likes her now. You gotta. You guys gotta get divorced because he likes her now. And it was just like, okay, dah, dah, dah, dah. Okay, Mimi, you're out. Nicole, you're in. And now that's this. It's not. It wasn't even. It didn't even seem like it was a big deal. It was just like, yeah, she's out, she's in. But then as soon as Nicole went sour on Scientology, then it was like, we got to figure out what she's up to so we can get rid of her.

Marc Headley [04:54:43] And during that time, the Entire time from when he was there. And they just finished Days of Thunder, and Nicole was there at the property with him when we was. When he was auditing me and doing Scientology counseling on me. Nicole Kidman was 10ft away in a chair doing a Scientology potential trouble source suppressive person course. Like, right on the other side of the room.

John Dehlin [04:55:07] Wait, you've met Tom? And the question.

Marc Headley [04:55:09] Cool, yeah. They went to the property to be trained and get into Scientology and get moved. Like, they basically got super speed to do everything. Like, you're not going to go to a regular place. You're going to do it here, and we're going to get you through as fast as you can possibly get through. And from that time to when they divorced, Tom was not in Scientology. He had nothing to do with. Signed off. We didn't even know if he was still in Scientology. And then we were told at the property, we would get updates all the time. And Dave would talk mad trash about Tom Cruise, about how he wasn't really a Scientologist, and he never really did anything. He never talks about Scientology.

Claire Headley [04:55:54] In the mid-90s, during this time period, Tom and Nicole had two people working for them, a husband and wife who were their assistants. Those two people were Scientologists, and they were sending reports to Dave and Shelley Miscavige on exactly what was going on on a daily basis in their marriage,

Marc Headley [04:56:13] in everything in their work life, in their personal life. And so Dave would dish.

John Dehlin [04:56:18] So Miscavige had spies spying on her.

Marc Headley [04:56:22] Nicole Kidman's personal assistant was a Scientologist, and. And Tom Cruise's personal assistant was a Scientologist, and they were a couple that was married, and they were both reporting directly to David.

John Dehlin [04:56:34] And then you're saying David would dish what he had.

Marc Headley [04:56:36] He would dish on anybody, but he would especially dish on them. And we were told by him that Tom Cruise was sterile, and that was one of his ruins, that he couldn't have kids and because he was sterile. And so then they found out. I'm assuming. I don't know where that information came from, but the information that was relayed to us by David Miscavige was that Nicole was pregnant. And so.

John Dehlin [04:57:08] Meaning Tom Cruise wasn't the father.

Marc Headley [04:57:10] Yeah, because he's sterile.

John Dehlin [04:57:12] So she had an affair.

Claire Headley [04:57:14] Yeah, that was the allegation it was

Marc Headley [04:57:16] told to us on.

Claire Headley [04:57:18] That was Scientology's allegation and which was provided to Tom Cruise. Whether it's true or false, I don't know. But this is what David Miscavige was telling us. Was going on behind the scenes and was. That was then a pivotal piece that resulted in Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman's divorce.

John Dehlin [04:57:38] This would make Suri not Tom Cruise's

Marc Headley [04:57:43] daughter if he is in fact sterile.

Claire Headley [04:57:46] Again, it all came from David miscarriage. So who knows?

Marc Headley [04:57:51] It's hard to say what's true and what's not, but this is the narrative that Scientology was creating. She had just done a movie with Ewan McGregor. I think it was called Moulin Rouge.

John Dehlin [04:58:05] Yeah.

Marc Headley [04:58:05] And she was pregnant. So if Thomas Star, then it is impossible that she could be pregnant. So therefore she must be cheating. And then this is how it was sold to us. And because Nicole's father was a psychiatrist, it was basically. And she was the one who didn't want them to be involved with Scientology. She was labeled a suppressive person. And it was very imperative to him that if he was going to succeed and have good a relationship and have a good life, that he needed to divorce her. And that was basically Scientology's pitch to him.

Marc Headley [04:58:45] And they did get divorced. And he. And oddly enough, he didn't have any children. With Mimi Rogers, she went off and remarried and had children. He didn't have any kids with Nicole Kidman, she went off and got remarried and had children. He had had a relationship with Penelope Cruz. They didn't have any children. She went off and had children. Every person that he's been with, besides Katie Holm, Katie Holmes, has gone off to have children with another spouse, but with. With him, they didn't have kids. So that's just a. I don't know how to reconcile that piece of information.

John Dehlin [04:59:24] Is that general gossip that Tom Cruise is sterile? Have you. Is that on the. I mean, is that bit leaked onto the Internet?

Claire Headley [04:59:31] I don't actually know.

Marc Headley [04:59:32] The specific quote that I heard from David Miscavige was, tom Cruise is more sterile than a sand trap.

Claire Headley [04:59:42] Yeah, but so, circling back on John Travolta, Scientology, as we've talked about, is incredibly homophobic. And so it's sad that he would even be in a position where he has to hide or lie about. About his personal relationships. But that is the nature of Scientology. And if you so fast forward to, I think 10 years ago now, Scientology very publicly was attacking and behaving homophobically, which then resulted in Paul Haggis leaving Scientology and contributing to the New Yorker article that led to Lawrence Wright's book going Clear. So by their actions and history, there's a lot of behavior on their part that is homophobic.

John Dehlin [05:00:35] Okay.

Marc Headley [05:00:36] Yeah. The only other thing that I wanted just to say about that was that when they sort of got Nicole out of the picture, when we were at the property, we would do auditions for film projects all the time. Time.

Marc Headley [05:00:53] And there was one period, and this was right before I ended up leaving, near the end of 2004, and we were doing interviews with actresses in Los Angeles, but they had. They weren't for anything we were shooting. And when I asked, I said, why are we doing all these interviews? And it was like, oh, this is a project being run by Religious Technology Center. And I'm like, what are you talking about? And. And it's like, let me see the questions they're asking him. And the questions are, what do you think of Tom Cruise?

Marc Headley [05:01:25] Where are you on your Scientology training? Where are you on your Scientology counseling? What do you think about David Miscavige? And it was very odd questions to be asking somebody for a movie part.

John Dehlin [05:01:41] Weren't they trying to find him a wife?

Marc Headley [05:01:42] They were looking for a girlfriend, which

Claire Headley [05:01:44] is at the time I was in Religious Technology Center. Mark and I didn't talk about this until after we escaped, but, yes, Shelly Miscavige told me personally that she was having to run a project to find a wife for Tom Cruz because Tom Cruz was on the phone with David Miscavage every single day complaining about lack of having a Scientologist as a partner. So that that entire project was run directly by Shelley Miscavige.

Marc Headley [05:02:14] And they. They never found a Scientology person to be his girlfriend. There was no Scientologist that could be his girlfriend. And eventually they ended up with Katie Holmes. And the only reason they picked Katie Holmes was because she had written a magazine. She had done a magazine article years before, and in there, she mentioned that when she was a teenager, she had a Tom Cruise poster on her wall, and that's the only reason she got pulled out of the hat. And she ended up being, you know, the love of his life, and he jumped on a bunch of couches for her, and, you know, the rest is history.

Claire Headley [05:02:51] All right.

John Dehlin [05:02:52] Okay. So

Marc Headley [05:02:55] most of the gossip. Gossipy.

John Dehlin [05:02:57] No, it's good. We'll break some. Break some stories here on Mormons. Okay, Mark, so I have a good sense for what you did. A lot of videography, filmmaking for conferences and events. Sounds like you helped out with video stuff at the center, that sort of thing. Why don't we. Let's give Claire some time now, maybe a little bit. Why don't we talk about two things, Claire, I'd love to hear the stuff you did when you Were working at headquarters, whatever you called it. But we also needed to talk about how you guys met and fell in love and that sort of thing. So floor is now yours, Claire.

Marriage, Forced Abortions, and Reproductive Coercion

Claire Headley [05:03:36] Okay, sounds good. Yeah. So Mark and I met when I was moved to work at the headquarters in late 1991. In May of 1992, we became a couple. You can't call it dating because when you're working 100 plus hours a week, there's no time for that. It was just kind of like, hey, hold it.

Marc Headley [05:03:58] Holding hands at dinner.

Claire Headley [05:03:59] Yes. Or on the bus, if we were lucky to ride home at the same time or even eat together. There's no dating in the Sea Organization. There's not any time for that. So anyhow, we met and we were married in August of 1992 in a very whirlwind. Like, we drove to LA on Thursday night, we drove to Vegas the next day, Got our marriage certificate, got our rings. We're married at. At Celebrity center on Saturday. And by Sunday dinner, I was back at work.

John Dehlin [05:04:31] And is premarital sex taboo 100%?

Claire Headley [05:04:35] Yeah. Premarital sex is completely forbidden.

John Dehlin [05:04:39] And do people blow that off or do they observe?

Marc Headley [05:04:42] Well, if you're caught. And that's actually a good point. If you're caught, most of the time, if you're at the international headquarters and you get caught, you get assigned to the Rehabilitation Process Project Force.

Claire Headley [05:04:53] Yes. Yeah. No, it's 100% completely. In fact, you can also be beached for that, kicked out completely, or sent to the Rehabilitation Project Force. It's definitely forbidden. And as a result of that, members of the Sea Organization end up getting married very young. And most of the time, there's a very high rate of divorce in the Sea Organization. So we're a statistical anomaly by Sea Org stand standards for sure. In that we just celebrated our 33rd anniversary.

John Dehlin [05:05:22] Congrats.

Claire Headley [05:05:23] Thank you.

John Dehlin [05:05:24] Yeah. That's exciting. Wow. Margi and I have only been married 32.

Claire Headley [05:05:28] Yes. We were married in August of 1992.

John Dehlin [05:05:32] Wow. Congrats.

Claire Headley [05:05:34] Yes.

John Dehlin [05:05:35] How old are you?

Claire Headley [05:05:36] I was 17.

Marc Headley [05:05:38] That's the worst part about her telling that is that people think I picked her up at daycare and never brought her back because we don't look as old as. Or she doesn't. To be fair, she doesn't look as old as. That old to be married for 33 years.

John Dehlin [05:05:54] Okay. So, yeah. Do you want to talk about, like. So. But also, you're not allowed to have kids. Right?

Claire Headley [05:06:02] Right. So by the time. So backing up for just a minute, I joined The Sea Organization. When I was 16 years old, I was aware of. Of the no kids policy which was already in place at that time. However, number one, I had. I was 16 years old. I wasn't married. I'd never been in a serious relationship. And so. And the pressure was so great to join the Sea Organization in the first place that I just followed the path of least resistance. Fast forward to now. I'm working at the headquarters. Meet and marry me. Mark. As we've mentioned, if we were lucky, we'd get $46 a week and having to out of that pay for birth control. So there were months at a time that our pay would get cut.

John Dehlin [05:06:52] And so you didn't have health insurance benefits?

Claire Headley [05:06:55] Oh, no, Nothing. No.

John Dehlin [05:06:58] So you couldn't afford birth control?

Claire Headley [05:06:59] No.

John Dehlin [05:07:00] So what did they expect couples to do to not have babies?

Marc Headley [05:07:04] Figure out out.

Claire Headley [05:07:05] Make it go. Right. Well, and that's. So that's the thing, and that's a solid question which is very applicable because there was. From the time that I came to the property, I became aware that it was a common practice for first of all, women to get pregnant and second of all, for them to then be pressured to terminate those pregnancies. And third of all, if they refused to terminate the pregnancy, that they would be put on heavy manual labor, restricted to the property, put under security guard like security watch and interrogated as to. Because it was considered wanting to leave the Sea Organization, which is an unauthorized departure which circles back to. You have crimes and transgressions against group. And that's the only reason you would ever want to leave the Sea Organization.

Marc Headley [05:08:02] So even tell them about the van and the amount of people that were.

Claire Headley [05:08:06] Yeah. So it was such a common practice that the. There was women being forced to terminate pregnancies. Was such a common practice, Forced abortions? Yes. Correct. That the medical officer weekly would take a number of women to the Riverside county, what's it called, Planned Parenthood. The medical officer would take women every week to the Riverside Planned Parenthood clinic. So much so that the director at that clinic started speaking out against the practice of forced abortion at that property. To which they changed to a different clinic.

Marc Headley [05:08:46] They were bringing so many girls there that the Planned Parenthood place was like, there's something wrong. You shouldn't be bringing people here every single week. There was a list that was made.

Claire Headley [05:09:00] I made it. I made a list for during our lawsuit of the people that I personally knew who'd been forced to abort a pregnancy. And that was more than 60 women long. Some of those women had up to six forced abortions during the years that they were there because of multiple pregnancies.

John Dehlin [05:09:21] It's weird. They just didn't provide birth control for everybody. They had a lot of money. Do you have a theory for why?

Claire Headley [05:09:28] They don't want to pay staff. They don't want to provide support. After our lawsuit, when someone falls pregnant, they leave immediately. When someone gets married, they're provided with birth control. So that's what people. We've heard from several people who have left more recently than we have because there were multiple lawsuits of forced abortions.

Marc Headley [05:09:52] Yeah, the. The story we heard from somebody who recently left was that the cheapest, most effective way is just to have all of the men sterilized. Get sterilized. And that's what they're now doing to Sea Org members.

John Dehlin [05:10:08] So Scientology is sterile sterilizing the men.

Marc Headley [05:10:11] That men are getting a vasectomy. If they want to have sex with their wife, they're getting a vasectomy so that they don't have to worry about the women getting pregnant. And so that's what we just heard. Within the last few years, we've heard it from a few different people because we were like, well, what are they doing now? Because there was a very. There was many years where, because of our lawsuit, if a girl came and said they got pregnant, they just said, okay, okay, well, we're gonna have to have you leave the Sea Org, and we're not gonna tell you to get an abortion.

Marc Headley [05:10:42] We're not gonna do any of that. We're just gonna let you leave. And then that. There were. There was. We. We know of about 30 couples that were able to get out during that time period. And then we suspect that they learned that that was just not gonna be sustainable because that was becoming the new epidemic, that they would get pregnant because they knew it was a sure shot. They couldn't do anything to make him terminate it. And so then we heard then, oh, no, they don't do that anymore. Now the guys just get vasectomies.

John Dehlin [05:11:12] So, Claire, do you feel comfortable sharing the story of your two forced abortions? Okay.

Claire Headley [05:11:20] The first time was in 1994.

John Dehlin [05:11:23] You were how old?

Claire Headley [05:11:24] I was 19, and we had been married for two years. Two years. And so at this time, I was still in Golden Era production, and so working at the headquarters in Gilman Hot Springs, California. We hadn't been getting paid, and I rarely saw Mark at the time. So the last thing I expected was that I would get pregnant.

Claire Headley [05:11:50] Certainly I had always wanted children. I love My husband. But I also was very aware that here I am in a position where if I do get pregnant, I'm going to be severely punished, isolated, taken away from Mark, and that they would do everything to split us up. And anyway, it was not a good situation. So when I. Oh, and so backing up for a minute too, it's not like I had access to the outside world.

Claire Headley [05:12:22] So the first thing, as soon as I realized I had missed my period, I had to go see the medical person because it's not like I could just go to Walmart and get a pregnancy test. I had to pay and ask her to get me a pregnancy test. And then she required that I take it right in front of her. So immediately, the moment I found out I was pregnant, the pressure was on. She was sitting right there.

Claire Headley [05:12:48] I was not even allowed to discuss it with Mark because that would be considered a suppressive act and a statement of wanting to leave. So if I said, oh, I'm going to try and dig in my heels, and that was just not even an option. And that's really tough at 19, like, what should be your most precious enjoyed moment of your entire life is now, you know, you can't even have a conversation about it. And, and, and the threat of consequences of like, okay, as a pregnant person, if I'm going to say no, I want out, then they're going to put me on heavy manual labor for months until I give in.

Claire Headley [05:13:35] And it. It was terrifying to me. That was. I. I didn't feel, having been born into Scientology, that I even had the strength to withstand that. So I was forced to go through with that. In that moment, it broke a piece of me forever. And I swore to myself that if it ever happened again, I would, no matter what happened, just like, grab my husband and get the heck out of there, no matter what it took. Unfortunately, two years later, I was.

John Dehlin [05:14:08] Okay. Wait, do you mind if I ask? So did they drive you to the Planned Parenthood?

Claire Headley [05:14:12] They. They prepared me. They said. They said exactly what I was to say, that I didn't want to speak to a psychologist about it. I didn't want to have any conversation about it. I was not to have any drugs during the procedure, which, by the way, I have, I know now is completely barbaric.

John Dehlin [05:14:36] So, no pain, no nothing? No.

Claire Headley [05:14:41] And so I had to get special approval to take time off from my job, to be driven to the clinic and to a six foot guy named Mark. Treasure was waiting in the waiting room while I was taken back. What almost broke me in that moment was the lady who was checking me in looked at me and she said, where's your husband? And. You know, it's one of those things. Like it's.

John Dehlin [05:15:27] And he didn't know. Is that right?

Claire Headley [05:15:29] He knew. But there was no. There was no choice. There was nothing either of us could do. Do.

Marc Headley [05:15:34] I wasn't allowed to come. I wasn't allowed to be part of it because we could have. Basically, they. When people escape, it's usually right around this, this kind of, this subject when they're like, you know what? We're out of here. And when they go to do the procedure, they never come back from the procedure and they don't end up doing the procedure.

John Dehlin [05:15:53] So she was allowed to tell you, but you weren't allowed to.

Marc Headley [05:15:56] And I didn't find out until it was already a done deal.

Claire Headley [05:15:58] And I was not allowed to even have a conversation. Like, we weren't allowed to discuss what do. What do we want to do? That's not, that's not a. Because that would have been considered a suppressive act for either of us to even suggest for one moment that we would fight against this. It was just not an option. So in that moment, I, and again, I didn't discuss this with Mark at that time, but I just in my mind decided that I would never go through with that ever again. And unfortunately.

John Dehlin [05:16:31] One more question. Sorry.

Claire Headley [05:16:33] No, it's okay.

John Dehlin [05:16:33] Had y' all talked before that first pregnancy? Like, okay, Scientology doesn't let us have kids, but we want to have sex, so we need to be careful so that we don't get pregnant, so that we don't have to terminate. Like, was there any of that?

Marc Headley [05:16:50] Not really between.

John Dehlin [05:16:52] But you knew that you couldn't get pregnant?

Marc Headley [05:16:55] Yes, but it wasn't. It was sort of like, I don't know, it was sort of like, if it happens, we, we might be able to just leave. Because that is how it is. If you do get pregnant. Sometimes they leave, sometimes they let them go.

John Dehlin [05:17:11] It wasn't like, oh, we'll just abort it. It wasn't like that.

Claire Headley [05:17:13] Oh, no, it was never.

John Dehlin [05:17:14] And it wasn't. We'll just do the pull out method or we'll just.

Marc Headley [05:17:17] No, it was never. It was never. I don't think we ever talked about.

Claire Headley [05:17:23] We didn't ever talk about it. But also, I think it's important to understand, like, Again, we're working 109 plus hours a week. We've committed to a billion year contract. We're not allowed to have any conversations that would even infer the possibility of leaving because that's a suppressive act. So you're under such completely tight control that it's not even like even having a conversation with Mark, who I met. We'd already both committed to a billion year contract. Contract. If I say to him, so we're going to get married, you want to have kids. That's a suppressive act because. Because the only way. Because no kids are allowed in. In the sea organization. So even just having that conversation was completely forbidden. So. No, we never told you that.

John Dehlin [05:18:06] Yeah. So in a cult, it makes all the sense in the world to me. But my, my logical brain is like, well, surely there would sort of be a thing where they sit a couple down and say, you're going to get married. Married, but you can't have kids. So like here are ways to prevent getting pregnant so you don't have to have an abortion.

Marc Headley [05:18:23] No conversation.

John Dehlin [05:18:24] There's no education around that.

Claire Headley [05:18:26] No.

Marc Headley [05:18:26] And again, most of the kids that are there that were our age or

John Dehlin [05:18:29] your parents would have done it, or your parents would have sat each of you down and had, quote the talk. And your parents would have said, okay, sweetie, you're going to get married, but you don't want to get pregnant. You don't want to have an abortion. So he. And you didn't have that conversation with your mom?

Claire Headley [05:18:44] No, I never had that conversation with my mom and Mark.

John Dehlin [05:18:47] You never had with your.

Marc Headley [05:18:48] No.

John Dehlin [05:18:50] Like that's.

Marc Headley [05:18:51] I don't actually think my. I don't even think my parents had the birds and the bees conversation with me yet.

John Dehlin [05:18:58] I mean, I expect that from conservative Christians. I don't expect that from kind of atheistic Scientologists. Right.

Claire Headley [05:19:06] My mom was, she absolutely knew about the women being pressured to abort children. But it's taboo. Like you don't talk about it, but it's demonstrated policy by evidence of the list of more than 60 women that I know personally that were forced to terminate pregnancies, but also you should say

Marc Headley [05:19:29] those are the only. The person.

Claire Headley [05:19:30] That's only the people I know personally. Yes.

John Dehlin [05:19:33] And that's only if you're in Sea Org, right?

Claire Headley [05:19:35] Yes. Yes.

John Dehlin [05:19:35] Okay. So regular Scientologist couples are allowed to have.

Marc Headley [05:19:38] Yeah. They can do whatever they want.

Claire Headley [05:19:39] But within the Sea Org and organization, that practice was rampant.

John Dehlin [05:19:43] Okay.

Claire Headley [05:19:43] Okay. Like almost. I would say 90 of the women that I asked had terminated pregnancies statistically.

John Dehlin [05:19:52] Yeah.

Claire Headley [05:19:53] And again, some of them were multiple.

John Dehlin [05:19:56] Okay.

Claire Headley [05:19:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [05:19:57] I keep interrupting you. So now you were gonna say, you said you'd never let it happen. Again.

Claire Headley [05:20:00] Yeah, I. It was, you know, again, we didn't ever talk about it, but I. I'd decided for myself that it was such a complete violation of my personal desires, integrity, my love for Mark, everything that I was like, if it ever happens again, not that I'm trying to get pregnant, but I would just put my foot down. Well, Fast forward to 1996.

John Dehlin [05:20:27] You were how old at that point?

Claire Headley [05:20:28] Now I'm 21.

John Dehlin [05:20:30] Oh, so it's two years later.

Claire Headley [05:20:31] Yes.

John Dehlin [05:20:31] Okay.

Claire Headley [05:20:33] And we'd been staying up around the clock again. I'd rarely seen Mark. We also weren't getting paid again.

Marc Headley [05:20:42] And you went to Florida?

Claire Headley [05:20:44] I went to Florida because I was promoted. I was moved into Religious Technology Center. So I arrived there in March of 1996, and I was training to be an RTC representative directly working under David and Shelley Miscavige. I truly had no idea I was pregnant. And the way I found out was super weird.

Claire Headley [05:21:12] I was in a meeting, standing all day long with these other members of RTC with David Miscavige coming in and out all day, yelling and screaming apoplectically at us, and I collapsed and just, clunk, passed out. And I was carried out of there, taken to a bathroom. And to this day, I cannot tell you why they gave me a pregnancy test. I definitely was not showing. I was, you know, maybe two weeks past when I. You know, like, very early, very early.

Claire Headley [05:21:51] They brought me a pregnancy test, and it was positive. And now I'm in Clearwater, Florida. Mark is in California. I was working under Ann Rathbun. Now she's Ann Jozeim, who was Marty Rathbun's wife at the time. And I made multiple requests. I had to have written approval to make a phone call to Marty, and every single request I made was denied. And I knew that if I stuck to my plan and held my ground that they were going to.

Claire Headley [05:22:29] I would be out. And I felt quite sure that they would never even tell Mark that I was pregnant. So, once again, for the second time, I was forced to go to the clinic with a handler.

Marc Headley [05:22:44] And in Clearwater.

Claire Headley [05:22:45] Yeah.

Marc Headley [05:22:46] This time I didn't find out until you found out.

Claire Headley [05:22:50] I told you six months later.

Marc Headley [05:22:51] I didn't find out until six months later. I would. She would. She. I think she either came back to California, or I had gone to Florida to put on one of the events that we would do in. In Clearwater in Ruth Eckerd hall or the Fort Harrison or wherever it was there. And then she. She told me, and I was like, what? And I was like, why didn't you tell me? It's like they wouldn't let me. And I was like, oh, my God.

John Dehlin [05:23:18] How'd you feel, Mark, knowing two of your children had been terminated?

Marc Headley [05:23:24] It's one of those things where when you're there, there's not really an easy way to leave that Everything doesn't. You don't burn everything down. And that is. Is a way that. It's sort of like it's a chance for us to have a life and to have children and get away from this nightmare. And it's like. It's kind of like it could have been. It could. We could have got out of here, basically, and we could have had a kid. And I always knew she. When I. The more I got to know her and she used to take care of her siblings and she. I knew I was like, she would be an amazing wife, because I already know she took care of three kids for years that weren't even hers. They were her mother's kids, but she took care of them. And when I would go home, they

Claire Headley [05:24:16] were my half siblings. And yeah, I looked after them more than my mother did.

Marc Headley [05:24:22] And when we would go to. Sometimes we would do an event in Los Angeles, and because we were doing an event in Los Angeles. Angeles, we would get to stay the night in Los Angeles. And sometimes because I was always driving a crew around and we were always filming, I had a tiny bit more autonomy than most Sea Org members. And I would have a vehicle that I could drive all these crew around in, and I would drop the crew off and then grab Claire because she was also at the event. And we would go to her parents house, which was only like 30 minutes from the Scientology conference complex.

Marc Headley [05:24:56] And then we'd stay there just overnight, and then we'd drive back to the property in the morning. And her. Her brothers and sisters just loved her. Like, they were like gushing with, oh, Claire. And. And then she. They'd show her what they. And I was like, oh, my gosh.

Marc Headley [05:25:13] So to me, it was just more like a mist. You know, as tragic as it was, it was more like a missed opportunity that we could have been happy. This would have been our chance to be happy and to get out of here. And so it always makes me happy when. Because after we let. When. When I had left and I was talking with her, I don't. And I don't know if I don't want to jump too much ahead, but when I. When I did escape and then she was able to get ahold of me because I had a secret email address. Most Sea Org members didn't have email, but I was one of the few people because we were in film production, and I needed to have an email account to contact vendors.

Marc Headley [05:25:57] I had a secret email that I had told her about that I never used on any of the Scientology networks. And so she managed to get a message to me, and as soon as I got on the phone with her, she was trying to get me to come back. And I said, hey, listen, you can leave, and we can have kids. We can have a family. And I knew. Knew for me, I was trying to use what I knew. How Scientology does it like. I'm gonna play into what she. What her ruin is, what her.

Marc Headley [05:26:30] What the one thing she could never have. You could have that now, if you come now and get out of there, we can have kids. We can have a family. We can be happy. We can do the two dogs and a cat and some kids and a boy and a girl, and the girl never worked, but we got three boys.

Marc Headley [05:26:49] And so because I was so affected by what happened back then, I knew that was her thing. If she could have kids, it would be worth it. And to be fair, in order to have those three kids, we had to give up our entire other family to have those three kids. That was the trade off. If you want kids, kids, then you can't have any other family.

Claire Headley [05:27:13] Yeah.

Marc Headley [05:27:14] That are in Scientology. So it's definitely. It's the Sophie's choice of happy endings.

Claire Headley [05:27:19] The what ifs are hard to. To deal with, even in retrospect. You know, like, what if I had somehow managed to get a message to Mark? But the bottom line is, is we were still. Still so firmly entrenched in that organization at that time. And in retrospect, I would never want to expose any child to being raised in that environment. And until we were free, it was not even safe to have children. So not only was it not possible, it wasn't safe. You know, that's how I view it in retrospect, because we would have even had we somehow, despite all the odds, gotten out, we still would have been completely under their control, and most likely we would have had our family, but we would be in a position where we were being forced, in course, to raise our children in that organization.

John Dehlin [05:28:17] Makes sense. I could see you ended up suing Scientology for that reason.

Claire Headley [05:28:25] Yes.

John Dehlin [05:28:26] I could see Scientology coming back and saying, look, on the first one, we can talk about it, but by the second one, you know, knew what you were doing. Y' all knew better. Fool on once, fool me once, shame on us. Foolish fools twice, shame on you. Like, what would you say to the accusation by the Scientology people that by the second time, you knew better, and it was on you the second time? Yeah, I know that's a horrible question.

Claire Headley [05:28:53] No, it's not a fair question. But the problem is that there's a paper trail that thoroughly documents that I wasn't getting paid and that I had requested to be able to talk to my husband, and that was denied, and that then I was interrogated for and around this pregnancy, and that I was escorted to an appointment. So there's. Because in Scientology, there's always an extensive paper trail of everything. So. Sure, you could say that. But how am I supposed to not get pregnant if I'm not getting paid and have no money and so. Sure, celibacy.

John Dehlin [05:29:33] The answer is celibacy.

Claire Headley [05:29:34] Yeah, well, we're married. We didn't agree to celibacy.

John Dehlin [05:29:38] And, you know, that wasn't the requirement.

Claire Headley [05:29:41] No.

John Dehlin [05:29:41] Oh, interesting.

Claire Headley [05:29:42] No, it was not the requirement. We were expected to just make it go right.

Marc Headley [05:29:46] And it's funny that it's funny that you say that, because one of David Miscavige's so sort of pet peeves is he likes to know everything that's going on sexually between couples in the Sea Org, and when something goes sideways, it's his People magazine. It's his gossip. He likes to gossip about those things with other executives. And we've been in those meetings.

Claire Headley [05:30:12] Well, he's done that to us, David Miscavige, from the very first time that we went and, like, said happy New Year to him, three months after we'd been married, it was at New Year's. So we were married in August 92 at the New Year's event.

Marc Headley [05:30:26] Four or five months.

Claire Headley [05:30:28] Yeah, four or five months from that moment, multiple times over the next 13 years, he gave us a hard time about being married. Like, Mark would get in trouble, and he'd come to me and say, oh, you're still married to him. And then even during the time I was in Religious Technology center, he, in a meeting, said again, said to me, knowing full well I'm married to Mark, oh, I've implemented a new personnel policy and staff and Religious Technology center can no longer be married to staff not in Religious Technology center, which is me, because Mark was in Golden Era Productions, so. Meaning I'm now required to divorce my husband to retain my position position, which I refused to do. And that's what landed me in the hole okay. Yeah.

John Dehlin [05:31:20] Well, I'm.

Claire Headley [05:31:21] So.

John Dehlin [05:31:22] Words, I guess, couldn't communicate how sorry I. And others feel for what. What happened to you.

Claire Headley [05:31:28] I appreciate it.

John Dehlin [05:31:29] Yeah.

Claire Headley [05:31:30] You know, I. That this is one of those things that falls into the category for me of time does not heal all wounds, but it does motivate me to let people know the abusive and dangerous practices of this organization and to hopefully manifest change, like happened with our lawsuit, that there are many children now we know of that were born because we spoke up on the subject, so.

John Dehlin [05:31:57] That one's so good.

Claire Headley [05:31:58] Yeah.

Working Directly Under David Miscavige

John Dehlin [05:31:59] Well, Claire, what can you tell us about the main duties you had working with David Miscavige and Shelley and Esther at headquarters? And what are some of the main stories you can tell to give us a sense for what it was like for you? What are the types of things you did, and what were some of the interesting and. Or horrific and. Or inspiring things that you experienced?

Claire Headley [05:32:24] Sure. So during the years that I was in Religious Technology Center, I would very often attend meetings with David Miscalcules. The first time I was. Well, I was moved into Religious Technology center in March 1996, and that's also the same month that I personally witnessed David Miscavige physically abuse staff.

Claire Headley [05:32:49] Specifically, he beat up Ray Midoff, who was a senior executive in Scientology. And that was shocking for me at that. I had always had the idea, as we've talked about, that, oh, the executives are good people. They follow L. Ron Harvard policy. They're on purpose. They're getting the work done, and any manifestations of things that we see that are awful is just people not following L. Ron Harvard policy correctly. So then, to see the leader of Scientology physically abusing staff made me realize I was in a whole different game or whole different different on a whole different board than I realized even existed. And so from that point forward, so from 1996 until 2004, I attended hundreds of meetings with David Miscavige and witnessed him physically and verbally abuse staff many, many times.

Claire Headley [05:33:48] Mike Grinder, Lyman Spurlock, Norman Starkey, Mark Yeager, Guillaume the Serve. Like, it wasn't just an isolated instance. It was pretty much anyone in an executive position was fair game to David Miscavige's physical and verbal abuse. He would fly off the handle at the drop of a hat, and he had a reign of terror over that property and over the people that worked directly for him, including Shelley Miscavige.

John Dehlin [05:34:19] He didn't beat her.

Claire Headley [05:34:20] He didn't beat her that I ever witnessed personally. So in the years from 2000 to 2004, I was responsible for essentially the internal staff in Religious Technology center making sure they were doing their jobs and the financial planning of Religious Technology center recruitment, things like that, but also staff morale and seeing that they were doing well. And many of the staff in RTC were not doing well and were would constantly get yelled at by David Miscavige. And I was supposed to help them and correct them so that they would do their job.

Claire Headley [05:35:05] So during those four years, I would report directly to Shelley Miscavige, meet with her almost every day. And Shelley mentioned on a number of occasions that, that I had no idea what I was putting her through at meaning at the hands of David Miscavige by not getting the Religious Technology center staff to perform better than they were.

Claire Headley [05:35:31] So while she didn't say outright he is abusing me, she was just telling me she was not exempt from the treatment that everybody else was getting. And more and more I saw her isolate from David Miscavige. They were already sleeping in different rooms and she was more and more getting in trouble or being sent.

Claire Headley [05:35:52] Sent back early from trips with him to get things done at the property. So it was. We always thought it could never get worse. And yet consistently over and over and over, over the years, it always got so much worse.

Marc Headley [05:36:10] That is the one thing that we would joke about. We would say, there's one good thing. It can't get any worse than this.

John Dehlin [05:36:19] Oh, yeah, I'd never say that.

Marc Headley [05:36:21] And then the next year we'd be like, somehow it got worse. And the best part is we left in 2005. We talked to people who left in 2010 or 20, 20, 15 or 20 kept getting worse. Every time we talk to them, they're like, oh, dude, you got out just in time. We're like, what do you mean it got, it got way worse after you left.

John Dehlin [05:36:39] Let me ask, were there senior people that would help you feel better about David Miscavige's physical abuse? Was there some sort of apologetic or excuse or justification that the leaders would give?

Claire Headley [05:36:55] Shelly would just always say it was our fault, you know, or their fault, and they pulled it in and they just need to get their act together and do better and get his orders done and then everything will be fine.

Marc Headley [05:37:10] We good most of the time. Sorry. I'll let him do that.

Claire Headley [05:37:14] That's okay.

John Dehlin [05:37:15] I don't know what that was, but it's, it's, it's okay.

Marc Headley [05:37:19] Go ahead. Yeah, most of the time it was Shell doing mop up after there was like a bad meeting and where he punched a bunch of people or threw a bunch of people up against a wall or threw a bunch of packages at us or whatever it was. And then she would say, you know, you guys have no idea. We just came from a big legal case meeting, and he's under a lot of stress, and Scientology's being attacked and the spirit are launching a full onslaught against us, and he is the one who has to bear the burden of everything that's going on. And so it would be like, you guys have to do better because he's trying to do everything, and you not doing it means he has to do even more and sort of excusing why he had to beat us that day.

Claire Headley [05:38:14] Yeah. At the same time, however. However, Shelly had expressed to me and to another staff member that she was worried David Miscavige was going to have a psychotic break and try to escape or hurt somebody very seriously. And she was trying to get David Miscavige fixed with Scientology counseling, but he was even refusing that.

Claire Headley [05:38:38] So. And that's where. When we. When we talked earlier about how Hubbard believing or not, to me, like, at that time, David Miscavige hadn't received any Scientology counseling or training in more than five years. So that's not the actions of someone who's a firm believer when you're required to.

Claire Headley [05:38:58] By policy, you should be studying 12 and a half hours a week and going in session and going up the bridge. David Miscavige was not doing that. And Shelly was very, very concerned about. About him, clearly. Correctly so, since she's now been missing for 20 years, or at least banished to where she has no freedom. She has no personal freedom and no personal connection to the outside world.

Shelley Miscavige and Senior Staff Mistreatment

John Dehlin [05:39:23] What do you think happened? Were you there when she was banished?

Claire Headley [05:39:26] No, she was banished approximately six months after we escaped.

John Dehlin [05:39:32] And if you had to theorize what drove them apart and what led to her banishment and where she is and what's happening, what's happened to her,

Marc Headley [05:39:43] because we've talked to people that were there,

Claire Headley [05:39:46] and it had a lot. So Shelley's banishment had to do with two main things. Number one, she did not approve of the close and ever increasingly close relationship between Tom Cruise and David Miscavige. Where they were, was speaking daily, and his involvement in trying to find her, find a new wife for Tom.

Claire Headley [05:40:06] She considered all of those were a distraction to David Miscavige's primary role, which is to expand Scientology. Number two, there was a building on the property that had been built for Religious technology Center it was a $40 million, like, 40,000 square foot building. She moved management executives in there against David Miscavige's wishes. And that triggered the next series of events where she was now Persona non grata and removed from his presence to a remote property in Big Bear, California, and has been kept there ever since then, maybe moving around to different of those properties, but with at least three dedicated handlers and multiple security guards, guards on top of that, restricting her every move. And so what was her offense?

Marc Headley [05:41:02] Just, she basically implemented personnel changes. And for many, many years at the property, there was a project to post the. Everything in Scientology, everybody has a post and everybody has a stat. And David Miscavige had been going on for decades about how he has to do the job for these people, and they shouldn't even have these jobs because he has to do them. And so what he asked for was, I want a proposal so that every post that I'm doing, this is David Miscavige. Every job that I'm doing for somebody, you have to put somebody on those posts so I don't have to do those jobs anymore. She did that. She put all the people on the jobs that he was doing, but she didn't get his approval to do that. And. And he had been, let's say, what, a hundred proposals.

Claire Headley [05:41:52] Yeah, that's where it's difficult to explain and understand. Like, he told her, go get this done. She went and got it done. And as a result of that, he was pissed because she didn't get it approved by him when he told her, go get it done. It's the ramblings of a madman, in short, is the reason she was. So that's what got her doing what

John Dehlin [05:42:12] he asked her to do.

Marc Headley [05:42:12] It was an excuse to get rid of her, basically.

Claire Headley [05:42:14] And that's. So that's what got her into trouble. Then she was sent off to be interrogated. He stormed off to Los Angeles. She went and got in a car to drive after him to sort out their marriage. And then she was accused of escaping without authorization, even though she was driving to see her husband. And then next thing you know, she's completely banished off the lines and has not been seen or heard, heard from since by any of her family, and certainly by it'. Symmagine, if the President of the United States has a first lady, his wife, and she's everywhere, attends all the meetings and all of it for 15 years, takes the notes, manages his personal staff, everything, and all of a sudden, poof, she's gone.

Claire Headley [05:43:01] And nobody even Asks any questions or dares to ask any questions, because as we know from Leah Remini's book, she asked, where's Shelley? And was told, f you. You don't have the rank to ask that question.

John Dehlin [05:43:14] Well, I mean, I've heard just theories that maybe she was dead. And y' all are saying that as far as you know, she's not dead.

Claire Headley [05:43:22] I don't think she's dead. Because if she were dead, how convenient would it be for that to just be leaked out to go, she passed away.

John Dehlin [05:43:31] But then, as you. Is she lobotomized? Is she in chains? Like, do you think she's being held against her will, or does she believe that she deserves the punishment she's getting? What do you suspect?

Claire Headley [05:43:44] I suspect both of those. She's doing the work to keep herself in. She thinks she has no option to get out of Scientology, in addition to which, she's physically under guard and has no freedom in the outside world. But Shelly has been in Scientology since she was six years old. She worked with Hubbard away from her parents on a ship since she was 11 years old. So for all intents and purposes, Scientology is the only life she's ever known. And different to David Miscavige, I think she is a true believer. I think she considered L. Ron Hubbard a father figure, and she respected him and believed in him. Even if it doesn't make any sense, she did. And so now she considers that it's her duty to remain because she believes that eventually L. Ron Hubbard will come back.

John Dehlin [05:44:39] He was supposed to return, like Jesus?

Claire Headley [05:44:41] Yeah, he was supposed to show back 2007. In 2007, there was a prophecy that he would return.

Marc Headley [05:44:46] He said when he would come back. He told people in the Sea Org, I'm going to be back at this. This date.

John Dehlin [05:44:52] And what happened?

Marc Headley [05:44:53] He missed a bus or a train connection or something.

John Dehlin [05:44:55] He never showed up. Was there an event, like, to usher him in or.

Claire Headley [05:44:59] No.

Marc Headley [05:44:59] But we did build a multi million dollar mansion at that international headquarters property. It's called a Bonnie View or Beautiful View, and it is a giant mansion. You can cut to B roll of that if you want, but there's drone footage of this property. It is an amazing mansion that was built at that property. And the entire reason that it had to be built by the time it was built was because Hubbard was coming back and it had to be ready for him when he got back.

John Dehlin [05:45:32] How is it? So what happened? Yeah, when he never showed up.

Claire Headley [05:45:35] He's a no show in Scientology's terminology. He's officially Blown.

John Dehlin [05:45:40] Wait, so how was that dealt with with the membership?

Marc Headley [05:45:43] Well, it wasn't, it wasn't told to the membership that he was coming back. It was only known at the international headquarters that he was coming back. And it was a very specific date in 2007 was when he was coming back and this house had to be built. The only kind of odd thing about that though is that and in this house they actually put his clothes out every night and they, they like for tomorrow there's somebody putting his clothes out on a bed.

Claire Headley [05:46:13] His same clothes from the seven clothes

Marc Headley [05:46:16] that he wore before he died. So I, that I would always ask like, hey, if you're setting out the clothes for that old 70 year old

John Dehlin [05:46:25] dude, he's gonna show up as leisure or Suit Larry. Basically.

Marc Headley [05:46:27] Yeah. He's gonna be a 21 year old kid that's not gonna fit in those old fuddy duddy clothes from the 70s.

John Dehlin [05:46:33] Plus it looked kind of goofy, right. So that's funny.

Marc Headley [05:46:37] They have his, his cars are waxed and gassed and ready to go. His clothes are out on it. They change all of the bedding, all of the decor, all of the furniture in the house for every season.

John Dehlin [05:46:50] Do you think they're still doing this?

Marc Headley [05:46:51] They 100% are still doing it.

John Dehlin [05:46:53] Even though it's way past the year

Marc Headley [05:46:55] he said they were doing it when we were there the entire time we were.

John Dehlin [05:46:59] Were there.

Claire Headley [05:47:00] Yeah.

Marc Headley [05:47:00] Before they built the new mansion, they had his old house.

John Dehlin [05:47:04] So there's literally some people preparing the bed and the clothes for Zombie 70s L. Ron Hubbard that's gonna come back

Marc Headley [05:47:13] in case he comes back tomorrow. His stuff's all ready to get to go.

John Dehlin [05:47:16] And this is in 2025 still happening.

Claire Headley [05:47:18] Yes.

John Dehlin [05:47:18] And he still hasn't come because he

Marc Headley [05:47:20] laid out in a policy what he wanted done. And so they have to do it. They can't. You can't undo that. So there's an entire household unit of I don't know, maybe 10 or 15 people.

John Dehlin [05:47:31] What city is this?

Marc Headley [05:47:32] It's Gilman Hot Springs.

John Dehlin [05:47:34] Still in la.

Marc Headley [05:47:35] No, it's.

John Dehlin [05:47:35] No, in the desert two hours outside of.

Marc Headley [05:47:39] Yeah, but if you go. There's a drone. There's drone footage. People have gone to this property and filmed the entire thing in detail. And you can see this mansion that's built there is. It's solely for L. Ron Hubbard to return for when he returns.

John Dehlin [05:47:54] The same place the mudslide happens.

Claire Headley [05:47:55] Yes.

Marc Headley [05:47:56] And there's only two people that have ever stayed in this house.

John Dehlin [05:47:59] Tom Cruise and David Miskevich.

Marc Headley [05:48:01] You got It.

John Dehlin [05:48:02] How did I know?

Marc Headley [05:48:03] I don't know.

Claire Headley [05:48:04] You're not paying attention.

Marc Headley [05:48:05] Clearly, you've been paying attention.

John Dehlin [05:48:07] What did John Travolta do to not get to go?

Marc Headley [05:48:09] What's that?

John Dehlin [05:48:10] Why didn't John Travolta get to go?

Marc Headley [05:48:12] I don't know.

Claire Headley [05:48:12] That's right. Because of his relationship choices and not reforming Kelly Preston.

John Dehlin [05:48:16] Or is he on the outs?

Marc Headley [05:48:18] No, no.

Claire Headley [05:48:19] He would constantly be in trouble for his choices in men, which were frowned upon.

John Dehlin [05:48:25] So you're. I think what I hear you saying is that John Travolta was continuing to have relationships with men.

Claire Headley [05:48:31] Correct. And he was Persona non grata because of that. He was constantly being handled by Scientology to stop his relationship choices. And because of that, he was not considered in the inner circle the same way Tom Cruise was.

John Dehlin [05:48:48] I didn't know that.

Claire Headley [05:48:49] When.

John Dehlin [05:48:50] So he's not, is he, right now in 2025, a Scientologist in good standing, or.

Marc Headley [05:48:55] No, he is.

Claire Headley [05:48:55] Yeah, he is.

Marc Headley [05:48:56] He is. But he's not. He's not on the same level as Dave and Tom. He's another category of Scientologists. And even when we were shooting. We were shooting things at the property, but when John Travolta was shooting the movie Battlefield Earth, David Miscavige was. Was, like, secretly producing that movie for John Travolta. David Miscavige was seeing the costumes and the special effects and the storyboards and the. Who's going to be hired as this and who's going to be hired as that. And David Miscavige was Phantom producing Battlefield Earth. And when it was done, David Miscavige told all of us, this is the best movie that's ever been made. It's the best. It's not gonna. There is no movie that's.

John Dehlin [05:49:48] John Travolta was in this movie. Right.

Marc Headley [05:49:49] And John Travolta is the star. And Forest Whitaker and Kelly Preston, John Travolta's wife, who was. Rest in peace, she was in the movie as well. But David Miscavige told all of us it was gonna be the best movie ever. That's a done deal. John Travolta was amazing. The whole movie's amazing because he produced it, really. So he was the one taking care of credit for it being amazing. And he would get the dailies, all the footage would come to him. And when it came out, we all were paid. We got tickets bought for us to see it twice. Three times.

Claire Headley [05:50:25] Yeah, three times in a row.

Marc Headley [05:50:26] Three times. To make the ticket sales be up.

Claire Headley [05:50:28] Yeah. Which by the way it's rough watching a bad movie once. It's terribly worse watching a bad movie three times. And it's exponentially worse watching it three times when you've been getting about one to two hours of sleep a night.

Marc Headley [05:50:43] Yeah, a lot of us were able to take a few hour naps, get

Claire Headley [05:50:47] a good six hours of sleep.

Marc Headley [05:50:48] But the best story about this is that when the movie was released, it was panned unanimously by everyone as one of the worst movies ever. And I think it even won a Razzie or whatever the award is for the worst movie movie ever. But Tom Cruise called David Miscavage and he said, what the f, dude? And. And Dave said, I know John Travolta that out ethics. Mfer he. Meaning he blamed the whole thing on John because he was gay, but also because Dave produced the movie.

John Dehlin [05:51:21] Yeah.

Marc Headley [05:51:22] And now it was a giant pile of nothing.

John Dehlin [05:51:25] Out ethics means what it means.

Marc Headley [05:51:26] Basically, John is. Is the one who made this thing, and he's off the rails, and it's his fault.

Claire Headley [05:51:30] So if you're in ethics, if you're. If you're in ethics, you're being a productive, contributing member of Scientology. If you're out ethics, then you are committing transgressions and making mistakes and not doing your best to promote Scientology to the world and present a good face.

John Dehlin [05:51:50] So was that code for he's gay and that's why the movie was bad?

Marc Headley [05:51:53] I just.

Claire Headley [05:51:53] That was a piece of it. I don't think that was the entire reason. And it certainly, I don't think, was part of the conversation between David Miscavige

Marc Headley [05:52:01] and Tom Fish, I think is actually the way he told it, or the way it was told to us is he said, yeah, John, that sea sucker, he really. Which means, what a cocksucker.

Claire Headley [05:52:12] Oh, David Miscavige is notorious for absolutely terrible language.

Marc Headley [05:52:18] Yeah. When we first left, we cursed more than, you know, 40 year old veteran sailors. That's just the way you talk there. And David Miscavige, we will be in a meeting with him and he'll say, suck my big fat wet in a meeting with all of the executives of Scientology.

John Dehlin [05:52:36] But he would refer to David Miscavige of Scientology, would refer to John Travolta

Marc Headley [05:52:41] as A. Yeah, 100%.

John Dehlin [05:52:43] You heard that?

Marc Headley [05:52:44] 100%.

John Dehlin [05:52:46] You too?

Claire Headley [05:52:46] I did.

John Dehlin [05:52:48] And was it pretty much out within the Scientology leadership that John Travolta was gay?

Marc Headley [05:52:54] It was that he had a problem that he needed to sort out.

John Dehlin [05:52:57] They didn't like to call him gay.

Marc Headley [05:52:59] Yeah. And even He, John Travolta even had an auditor at one time, like a counselor. And the counselor was going to try to leave, and they were like, you can't leave because you know all these things. And when that guy eventually did escape, it was a big flap because now they have people that are being counselors that are, that are getting these secrets from people that Scientology is keeping a repository of, but now they're getting people that are escaping that know about these things. And they have that same problem with Priscilla Presley, with John Travolta, with Lisa Marie Presley. It's a very, it's a very big problem in Scientology that these people are being counseled and they're giving up all these secrets, and then the people with the secrets are then escaping from Scientology and they have no way to keep those people from contacting the person and saying, hey, just so you know, David Miscavige jokes about your sexual proclivity an hour after you've confessed them in the room with a bunch of executives.

Marc Headley [05:54:10] Or that's his gossip is Scientologists transgressions that they're confessing is his entertainment. And so, and it. The entire time we were there, we would have meetings with him and he would always have the up to the minute info on anything that was going on. And sometimes he would be talking about a person that had done something within the Sea Org or even a member. Sometimes he would tell us about members that had done things. And then that was even like, when you're hearing about the other Sea Org members, something went wrong. They're getting investigated. And so the results of the investigation are what he's telling us about.

Marc Headley [05:54:54] But then when he switched over to telling us, oh, there's this one guy in Australia, Australia, who's not even a Sea Org member, and he's been screwing the commanding officer of the Sea Org in that area. And it is the mother of somebody who's in the meeting. And he pretends like he doesn't even know that, but he's basically talking about the Sea Org person and a public member of Scientology, a paying member of Scientology, having relations, and he doesn't even know if it's true.

Claire Headley [05:55:25] True.

Marc Headley [05:55:26] Sometimes people are interrogated so long that they just confess to whatever they want them to confess to. So you could be in an interview for 15 hours and they just keep asking you the same thing, and after 15 hours you say, yeah, I did it, I slept with her, whatever, even though you didn't to end it. And this is a known thing with interrogations in the CIA. And they've done other studies where if you interview, interrogate somebody, and torture somebody, eventually they'll admit whatever you want them to admit to. And they have the same thing within

Claire Headley [05:55:56] the SeaWorld, especially when you factor in sleep deprivation and everything else that are all elements of those interrogations.

John Dehlin [05:56:04] Claire, let me ask you. You claim that you believe that David Miscavige doesn't really believe that Scientology is true. I'll use those words. How would you describe it? He doesn't believe in Scientology.

Claire Headley [05:56:17] I just believe that David Miscavige does not have. Have belief and conviction in Scientology. His commitment to it is as a result of the power and control that he's leveraged over its members and over its money.

John Dehlin [05:56:31] And the money, yeah. So two things. Can you tell us what evidence or what things you saw that led you to believe that David Miscavige wasn't a true believer, and any stories you wanted to tell that would be disturbing to members if they were to watch about kind of what goes on behind the scenes, bodies get buried, that kind of thing?

Claire Headley [05:56:58] Sure, yes. Primarily when I started to see that David Miscavige was not a dedicated, committed Scientologist, as I mentioned, is that he has not participated in counseling since 1993. Last I knew, obviously, I escaped in 2005. But also, he was not regularly studying Scientology. He was also not following the rules and guidelines of the Sea Organization the way he was requiring most other members of the Sea Organization to do. For example, he would keep his own schedule and meet behind closed doors with a close circle and drink scotch and go on extended trips doing scuba diving and had liberties that no other member of the Sea Organization had. And that was.

John Dehlin [05:57:51] Why is scuba diving bad?

Claire Headley [05:57:53] It's not that it's bad. It's that he's spending Scientology's money going on personal, private vacations to. What's that?

John Dehlin [05:58:02] Junkets?

Marc Headley [05:58:02] Oh, no, just vacations.

John Dehlin [05:58:04] Well, it's. That's what I think of when I think of the word junket. But anyway.

Claire Headley [05:58:09] Inerment.

John Dehlin [05:58:10] Okay. Yeah.

Claire Headley [05:58:11] Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. You know, so we're all living by the code of a Sea Org member and other requirements, and he's not.

John Dehlin [05:58:22] And did he tell people he was, or is there like, I'm the king, so I get to do what I want, and God's okay with that or whatever.

Claire Headley [05:58:28] Yeah. There was no disclosure that, for example, he's drinking scotch every night, which is strictly forbidden from members of the Sea Organization. Anyone else would have gotten in very RPA's trouble yes, for sure.

John Dehlin [05:58:45] So going on little private vacations, drinking scotch was there. You know, it's. Almost every single cult leader ever has multiple mistresses or, you know, sexual escapades. Any idea whether that was going on at all?

Claire Headley [05:59:00] I never witnessed him actually doing something, but I know that Shelly. Shelly Miscavige was very, very concerned with. So David and Shelly had three staff that were stewards for them, personal stewards who would prepare their clothes, bring them their breakfast, wake them up in the morning. And Shelley was concerned at various times that all three of those stewards were having inappropriate relations with David Miscavige and was having those three women interrogated about her suspicions of that. Then there was another.

John Dehlin [05:59:36] How do you know she was suspicious?

Claire Headley [05:59:38] She told me.

John Dehlin [05:59:39] Oh, yeah. So Shelley Miscavige told you that she was worried that three of his. David Miscavige's assistants were possibly having sex with him?

Claire Headley [05:59:48] Yes. And another person that Shelley Miscavige was suspicious of was Jenny Linson, who is still there to this day and is rather famous for a very bizarre interaction. Oh, yeah, Anderson Cooper. She was on Anderson Cooper. But then also subsequent to that, a very bizarre interaction that was filmed with her and Mark Yeager, who's another executive still. Still there with Marty Rathbun at LAX airport. Either way, Shelley was suspicious that Jenny had designs to create a relationship, an inappropriate sexual relationship with David Miscavige. Shelley's blame was putting it on the women, not on David Miscavige. But yet why would she be concerned if her husband was completely above board and the all holy leader he was pretending to be?

Marc Headley [06:00:47] One time there was actually, I remember there was one steward, Georgiana, one of his stewards, very attractive young woman that worked for David Miscavige. Shelly was convinced that there was a problem and the girl was interrogated and nothing had happened, according to the girl. And so Shelly just had moved her to another base. She.

Claire Headley [06:01:13] She moved. She. Shelly moved Georgiana to the Free Winds cruise ship.

Marc Headley [06:01:17] So she would only see David Miscavige for one week out of the year. Yeah, if she was there and she became a steward on the Free Winds, even though Dave wasn't on the Free Winds, and she became a steward there. And that. I think that was the last time she was at the base. Right.

Claire Headley [06:01:34] I don't think she come back after that. I think she was brought back after that, but yeah. And originally she was banished to do heavy manual labor in the engine room of that cruise ship as a punishment. And then eventually she was let out from that. But the point being, there were many signs that there was more going on than met the eye. So, again, I didn't personally witness him

John Dehlin [06:01:57] having the transaction, as they say.

Claire Headley [06:01:59] Yes, I didn't personally witness a transaction, but Shelley Miscavige expressed to me personally on many occasions, concerns of said transactions. For sure. Okay, yeah.

John Dehlin [06:02:10] Any other behaviors on David Miscavige's part that gave you the impression he didn't really believe or was a hypocrite? Basically, yeah. Or those. The main ones.

Claire Headley [06:02:21] I mean, he had. So another significant piece of this is David Miscavige had had many personal favors being provided to Tom Cruise using Sea Org members. So doing renovations of Tom Cruise's personal hangar, renovations of his private plane, you know, vehicles. Vehicles, yes. Hiring his personal staff, selecting his personal staff from Scientologists. I mean, there were numerous instances of that, which is like, that's not what the leader of a quote, unquote, religion should be focusing on, is catering to and pandering to a top celebrity and going way above and beyond what would be considered legal.

Leaving Scientology and Life After Departure

Marc Headley [06:03:13] There was also a time period after we left in 2005 and in 2006 with where we witnessed RTC Religious Technology center interrogators arriving at Tom Cruise's house. And we found out through people that worked for Tom Cruise that Dave was sending interrogators from Religious Technology center to interrogate his staff on the E Meter that were not Scientologists to find out how. How things were being leaked to the media and to tabloids. Because it wasn't Tom and it wasn't Katie, but things were fact. Factual items were being leaked to the press, and it had to have been within their household. And so Sea Org members were going and interrogating non Scientology members of Tom Cruise's household on what? Who's the evil person leaking things to the table?

Claire Headley [06:04:14] Towards 2003, 2004, during the time that I was still in Religious Technology center, the meetings were getting worse and worse and worse with physical abuse. But then David Miscavige started declaring the top executives as suppressive people and created the hole. And when that happened, it was.

John Dehlin [06:04:36] Created the hole. Do you want to talk about what that was?

Claire Headley [06:04:38] Yes. So the hole was essentially the management executive offices were in these double wide trailers. And at first, Miscavige designated a room as the SP Room and started putting holding people there who had been declared suppressive people. But then it expanded to all of management because all of management was not getting his orders done. So then when, you know, you don't have the moment to pause and consider it, because you. You're in such an environment where you raise your voice against David Miscavige, you're going to be in the hole too. And yet.

John Dehlin [06:05:16] So he could beat you, but you couldn't raise your voice back.

Claire Headley [06:05:19] That's right. No. And if you did, you would be immediately sent to the rehabilitation project for. So, for example, if I had ever done that, not that I dared to, in that frame of mind, I would have never seen Mark again. Or vice versa. Versa. You know, it was just. And we're talking about people, management executives who've been in Scientology for decades have committed to a billion years of service, and now they're suppressive people. And it really.

Claire Headley [06:05:50] You know, it's creates this environment of complete fear of the person who has complete control over your every movement. There's a security force that will keep you restricted to the property. You know, all the conditions were just so deteriorating, repeatedly, year after year, that by 2004, I. I mean, I couldn't imagine a life out of Scientology. At the same time, I longed for a life outside of Scientology. I would have nightmares about trying to escape, but I would never tell anybody that I had a night nightmare that I was trying to escape.

John Dehlin [06:06:28] Including your husband.

Claire Headley [06:06:29] Including my husband, yes. And because Shelly Miscavige had personally told me, I'd forgone my right to escape. And that came from a position of authority and power that I believed that even if I tried, they would track me down and bring me back.

John Dehlin [06:06:47] So you were you saying something about the whole.

Claire Headley [06:06:50] Oh, yes. So David Miscavige created the Hole as an extreme form of punishment where top executives were now labeled as enemies of Scientology. And

Marc Headley [06:07:04] couldn't leave.

Claire Headley [06:07:05] Yeah, they couldn't leave. They're being made to do heavy manual labor. Confessions. Group confessions.

Marc Headley [06:07:11] They welded bars on all of the windows of the building, so there was no way to get out of the building. Building. And they had guards posted at the entrances. And they barred one of the doors. They barred. So the door that is in the main room of the Hole, they made it so all of the windows and doors in that room you could not break out of if you wanted to. They were barred from the outside.

Marc Headley [06:07:35] And then the doors that you could easily go through that were locked and unlockable, they had guards at those doors. So even. Even if you were able to get out of there, you wouldn't be able to leave the building.

Marc Headley [06:07:47] And they had to eat there, they had to sleep there, they had to work there. They had to do group Confessions. That was also the time when he would. Basically, he already knew all of the crimes that these people had committed for decades because he was reading all of the sessions. So if they would admit to something in front of the group that he already knew, they admitted before that to their counselor, he would say, no, no, no. I already know all about that. And then people would say, no, no. They said there was a time in the 90s where Scientology was running a major campaign against Eli Lilly and Pfizer and saying that they were poisoning society and all of these different things.

Marc Headley [06:08:30] And they had been running a national ad campaign in USA Today day, putting giant. Anti Eli Lilly or Pfizer or magazine. They were attacking big Pharma every week in these giant newspapers. And David Miscavige was like, you guys need to confess your crimes. Well, one of a few of the big executives, Mark Yeager, Guillain Lessev, Ray

Claire Headley [06:08:56] Middaugh, Ronnie Miscavige, his brother, David Miscavige's

Marc Headley [06:08:59] brother, they had admitted that at the very, very end of that campaign, they all bought a ton of Eli stock because they knew it would go up after.

John Dehlin [06:09:12] So they were manipulating the market.

Marc Headley [06:09:13] Yes. And they were basically insider trading.

John Dehlin [06:09:17] They were taking the stock.

Marc Headley [06:09:18] They were taking the stock and then buying it because they knew when they ended the campaign, the stock would go back up. And this was a confession of the major executives in all of Scientology that they had bought Eli Lilly or Pfizer stock knowing it would go up so they'd make a ton of money. And when they admitted it, you would have to. The people in the hole would have to admit all these crimes, and then somebody would summarize them, and when he would come to find out what they had confessed to, he would go, okay, what's the big thing. Thing that these guys confessed to?

Marc Headley [06:09:54] And they would say, sir, this is so insane. But this is what they admitted. And he was like, that's not good enough. I knew about that a decade ago. That's not anything new. Let's hear something new. And to everybody there, it was like, wait a minute. You knew about this 10 years ago, and these guys have been in charge this whole time? And then you find about them. They were. This is another big thing in Scientology is statistics. And that every.

Marc Headley [06:10:27] Every organization has to have statistics so they can measure it. And then those statistics in the olden days would come up to management, and then management would present them to L. Ron Hubbard. All of the executives, including David Miscavige, knew that the organizations were falsifying the statistics and that they themselves were padding and blowing the statistics up to be sent to L. Ron Hubbard. And then L. Ron Hubbard was rewarding and penalizing people based on these false statistics. And they basically admitted that in the 1980s, when L. Ron Hubbard was still alive, they were all lying and false reporting these statistics to L. Ron Hubbard.

Marc Headley [06:11:12] And they were getting bonuses, those tens of thousands of dollars worth of bonuses that was later used to buy that Eli Lilly stock and these other things. And they all had sports cars and one guy had an MG and one guy had a BMW. And they were living high on the hog. David Miscavige and these top executives.

Claire Headley [06:11:34] Yeah, it was about 10 top executives. It was not broad. And there had been no bonuses in the SEA organization since that time. But they had amassed some decent amounts of money during those years.

Marc Headley [06:11:48] But they were basically admitting to things that were unbelievable crimes that if any Sea Org member committed, they would immediately be kicked out of the Sea Org. It's just impossible that they would be allowed. And not only did he know about them, but he might have been. The way the stories were told by these guys. He was in on it. He knew about it and that he kept it. He kept it under wraps as a way to ally them. And hey, listen, I know what you did. You know what I did, But I'm not gonna do anything if you don't do anything. And then now that he's risen to this, he's amassed all this power.

Marc Headley [06:12:28] He can play with people whoever he wants and he can throw anybody under the bus. And I don't think think there was ever a time when he came down and they confessed something that he didn't already know all about it.

John Dehlin [06:12:44] All right, so I've heard forced abortions, I've heard physically assaulting, beating people, misappropriation of funds, personal enumment, racism, homophobia, stock market manipulation, you know, hypocrisy, not living up to the standards any other, you know, imprisoning his wife and other people.

Marc Headley [06:13:13] Imprisoning. Just regular SEA orders.

John Dehlin [06:13:16] Yeah, exploitation, all that stuff. Any other big thing.

Marc Headley [06:13:21] Confidential. Releasing confidential information that's given under a priest. Pertinent, sort of penitent, a relationship.

John Dehlin [06:13:30] Violation of people's confidences, of their confidentiality

Marc Headley [06:13:34] and sharing the recordings without their permission, without their.

John Dehlin [06:13:40] Any other.

Claire Headley [06:13:41] I mean, those are the top.

John Dehlin [06:13:43] Are those the big ones?

Marc Headley [06:13:43] Sounds like the. That's like the top 10.

Claire Headley [06:13:46] Yeah.

Marc Headley [06:13:46] Okay. Yeah.

Claire Headley [06:13:47] And factor in this is up until 2005, and we know from other people who we. Since then. And it got dramatically worse. Yes.

John Dehlin [06:13:56] Okay, So I mean, like, we're past the time limit that we had set for this episode.

Claire Headley [06:14:03] Yes.

John Dehlin [06:14:03] So stay tuned. So, I mean, what we're gonna do, let's. I'm gonna ask you a couple questions to end today, and then we'll have you come back tomorrow and we'll talk about your escape.

Claire Headley [06:14:14] Perfect.

John Dehlin [06:14:14] Is that all right? Sure.

Claire Headley [06:14:15] Sounds good.

John Dehlin [06:14:15] Cause y' all have been really good sports today, and you haven't eaten all day, and neither have I. Y' all are treating me like David treated you. No, without the.

Claire Headley [06:14:25] We're all running on a lean mixture at this point.

John Dehlin [06:14:28] I'm joking. Sorry.

Claire Headley [06:14:29] I know it's all good.

John Dehlin [06:14:30] So, one, I guess, is just a reaction. Like, I am stunned and not stunned that this didn't collapse, that all these abuses didn't lead to everybody defecting, didn't lead to the collapse, did lead to scandals and betrayal. I want to talk a little bit tomorrow about, like, when Mike Rinder defects and Leah Remini defects and how defections were handled. So help me remember that. We want to talk about that tomorrow.

John Dehlin [06:15:02] But I'm just. The abuses and the illegalities are so severe. I just can't believe that, number one, it survived and survives to this day. And then the second thing is, I can't believe this is legal in the United States, that this organization continues to grow and thrive. Maybe not in membership, but in wealth. They're probably richer than ever, and they're probably going to keep getting richer and richer. I can't believe that this is allowed in the United States of America, that all this information's known.

John Dehlin [06:15:36] You guys and Leah and Mike and all the people and script, Chris Shelton, you've all come out whistleblowers. Everybody knows what's going on. And I guess under religious freedom clauses, Scientology is still allowed to thrive. So that's. I'm shocked at both of those things.

Claire Headley [06:15:53] Yes.

John Dehlin [06:15:54] Let's give each of you guys a chance to kind of summarize today, and then we'll come right back tomorrow and talk about your skin.

Claire Headley [06:16:01] Okay. I would summarize it as Scientology has decades long history of. Of perfecting their approach, their contracts, their legal team, in order to protect themselves and enable them to continue their abusive practices. I would say that we have made progress. It's not satisfying in that, at least yet, as that they're still getting away with it to this day. But we've certainly anyone who's spoken out against their abuse. Each voice matters, and each account, each lawsuit, each contribution has continued to portray the reality of this organization. But, yes, it's systemic abuse that is shocking that they're still getting away with it to this day.

John Dehlin [06:16:48] And today, we didn't even really go into the harassment of defectors, the lawfare, just the physical and emotional and psychological and physical abuse. Abuse of apostates and defectors.

Claire Headley [06:17:00] Correct.

John Dehlin [06:17:01] So that. We'll talk about that tomorrow. Yes, but. Okay, so you're saying every voice matters.

Claire Headley [06:17:07] Yep. And. And because Scientology has been getting away with this for decades, as Mark mentioned, they're responsible for the largest infiltration of the U.S. government. And that, and the raids from that proved that Scientology's body of fair game policy was alive and well. I mean, they. They were framing people for murder back then and bomb threats like Paulette Cooper's story. Anyway. Yeah, it is frustrating, but it also is why we continue to speak out and use our voices to continue to expose them.

John Dehlin [06:17:42] But I mean, in a better world, a government like, I mean, 2025, forget about it. But I mean, in a better world, any free, free market democracy with ethics would not allow this type of abuse and corruption in the name of religion.

Claire Headley [06:18:01] That's right.

John Dehlin [06:18:02] It did shut all this down.

Marc Headley [06:18:04] One of the key ways that they get away with it is not only the lawyers, but they use the celebrities, and they use the celebrities to paint this picture over here. And when you've got a DA or a prosecutor or a judge or a mayor who could go the wrong way or be an enemy, you invite that guy to the old Clearwater get together we're having, and let his wife dance with John Travolta for five minutes.

John Dehlin [06:18:37] Just go on the floor.

Marc Headley [06:18:38] And he's your biggest fan in the world because you made it possible for his wife to have a date dance with John Travolta. And now that judge is your best friend.

John Dehlin [06:18:48] And they would do that with. With judges and 100 police officers. That is law enforcement big deal and judicial system.

Marc Headley [06:18:56] You're going to have an la. We're going to have an. We're going to have a Christmas event, and we're going to invite all of the LAPD and all of the people that are involved with. If something goes bad for cyber Scientology, these are the guys that we need in our back pocket. The LAPD are performing at their Christmas show. They're singing and playing guitar at the Scientology showcase, and they're getting to meet the Scientology celebrities, and they're getting to pal around with all the muckety mucks that Scientology invited. And so. And also those. Remember we talked about. About those events that happen every year, seven events yeah.

Marc Headley [06:19:40] Every time they have one of those, they hire police to be off duty security for their event. And so they're having seven of those a year in Los Angeles, in Florida, in all these places. They have the events and those police.

Marc Headley [06:19:58] That's how they're taking their family to Hawaii, and that's how they're going to get the boat that they. The fishing boat they've always driven, dreamed of the Scientology. That little back rub that they're getting from Scientology is how they have a life besides what they make being a police officer. So when that girl shows up to the police station and says, danny Masterson did this and that and the other thing, there's a. There's a police officer there that goes, hey, we got one of your guys over here, and they're saying some stuff about one of your other guys, and. And then it goes away. So they have been doing this for decades.

Marc Headley [06:20:34] They know how to play this game. So if they don't win in the lawfare or the harassment, it just won't ever become a thing. When the people go to the police or when the people go. When the case gets assigned to a judge and the judge says, oh, give me a break.

Marc Headley [06:20:52] There's two lawyers that worked for Scientology. One of them was on our case, and one of them was on the Danny Masterson case. Those two lawyers are California Supreme Court judges. Now they're. They're the Supreme Court judges.

John Dehlin [06:21:08] Scientology helped them 100.

Marc Headley [06:21:10] How would two guys that work for Scientology within a matter of three or four years?

John Dehlin [06:21:16] Oh, there were lawyers hired by science.

Marc Headley [06:21:17] They were lawyers hired by Scientology.

Claire Headley [06:21:19] Lawyers were representing scientific Scientology and then became Supreme Court judges.

John Dehlin [06:21:24] That's so scary.

Marc Headley [06:21:25] Two separate ones.

Claire Headley [06:21:26] Yes.

Marc Headley [06:21:27] One that was defending them against Danny Masterson and one that was defending them against. When our lawsuit.

Claire Headley [06:21:32] Yeah, those are just the two that we know of. There's. There hasn't been a complete study of it. But then you look into and learn that now Scientology has created this whole false arbitration system, which we can talk about tomorrow, because that. That's a whole other thing that they've invented to prevent lawsuits from even making

Marc Headley [06:21:53] it to the courts, because the courts are not allowed to interfere with religious disputes. So Scientology says, well, we have a thing called the commev, the Committee of Evidence, which is basically just a kangaroo court that you're. If you. Scientology wants you to be guilty, then you're guilty. That's how that works. And so so these cases are being sent back to Scientology. So the judicial system is saying, we don't want to get involved with this. You guys have an internal arbitration system. So sort this out within yourselves. And so you're going to a lawyer, you're paying to sue Scientology and then you're being told you have to go and sort it out based on Scientology's policy.

Claire Headley [06:22:38] Yes. Not only that.

Marc Headley [06:22:39] And your lawyer can't come.

Claire Headley [06:22:41] Yeah. Go back to your abuser and they'll. And figure it out there. And giving them no recourse in the judicial system, even for the woman who had to escape in the trunk of a car. And that's the only reason she is out. Now they're saying go sort it out with Scientology and other worse examples too. But yes, this is.

John Dehlin [06:23:03] So Scientology's worked with the. What Legislature. California legislature to.

Marc Headley [06:23:07] No, they've just established through precedent.

John Dehlin [06:23:11] Oh.

Marc Headley [06:23:12] That this case went this way. And so now it's basically just to get out of jail free ticket for the judge to say, you know, this is going to come back to. To bite me. Also, if you're that judge, you are now entering into the fair game. We can. All your secrets are now going to get out of jail.

John Dehlin [06:23:30] Judges can be for Gamed100.

Marc Headley [06:23:32] Anybody who doesn't like Scientology can be fair game.

Claire Headley [06:23:35] Even. Even in the Danny Masterson trial, the district attorney's office, they were being fair gamed and they documented and spoke about it publicly.

John Dehlin [06:23:44] That's wild.

Claire Headley [06:23:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [06:23:47] Wow. Dang, man. What a crazy world. Okay, well, the one thing I'll say in closing is I'd be willing to bet $10,000 that the Mormon law firm, Kirtne McConkey, has the Scientology lawyers and law firm on speed dial and that they're communicating with each other regularly on tactics and techniques.

Claire Headley [06:24:13] I would absolutely agree.

Marc Headley [06:24:14] I would say the same because David Miscavige has said on many, many occasions that he. If we needed to do something when we were working there, if we needed to build an audio visual system for a haul or we needed to create a video for a certain thing, he would tell us, go see and see what the Mormons are doing, because they're doing it the way we want to be doing everything.

Claire Headley [06:24:39] Yep. David Miscavige was 100% an advocate for mimicking and studying and researching how Mormons were doing things and following that same approach.

John Dehlin [06:24:50] Any idea if there was direct communication between Scientology and the. The LDS Church?

Marc Headley [06:24:54] I don't know, but he knew a lot about a lot of Mormon stuff that, I mean, obviously we didn't know we were Sea Org members. We're kind of cut off from the whole World. But when we were building a new, there was designs, which is now they're trying to do it again. It's called the L. Ron Hubbard Hall. They're trying to build this thing down in Clearwater. But when we were designing different properties in Clearwater and we were putting the initial sort of, this is what we would have in this facility if we did that. And he was like, oh, you've got to go see what the Mormons did in Utah.

Marc Headley [06:25:25] Because they have a place there which is just teched out to the. It's just the best. And that's our conference center, basically. And that's what we need. We need to have it set up like they have it set up. And we would look up whatever we could look up on the Internet and see what equipment and hardware and we'd be like, I don't know. This is.

John Dehlin [06:25:43] This is a lot.

Marc Headley [06:25:43] This is like, this is way over what the budget we're used to submitting to Dave. And nobody wants to be that person that gives him the proposal that says it's going to be $10 million because he's going to. Someone's getting beat in that meeting for sure.

John Dehlin [06:26:02] Wow. Okay. Well, if that's not enough teaser for tomorrow, I don't know what else we could do, but yeah. So tomorrow we're going to talk about y' all escaping. We'll talk about the Danny Masterson thing, we'll talk about your legal efforts, y' all being fair gamed, what you know about other celebrities leaving, how they were fair gamed, how y' all have come out the other end, how you've tried to help people, how you've become healthy. And that's so a whole nother. I'm sure four or five hours we'll do a little more.

Marc Headley [06:26:37] We appreciate it.

Claire Headley [06:26:37] Sounds good. Yes.

John Dehlin [06:26:39] Well, I hope today was okay for you guys.

Marc Headley [06:26:41] Sure.

John Dehlin [06:26:42] Thanks so much for your generosity and fascinating stories. It's so disturbing.

Marc Headley [06:26:48] Well, yeah, that was the craziest thing when. When people would ask us about what happened when we were there. And then they would go, well, at least you're gone now. We say, oh, no. After we left and started talking about them, that's when they really started putting the screws to us. So. So that is like basically everything up till now was just training for us for what was to come.

John Dehlin [06:27:11] Oh, wow. Okay. So you didn't see nothing yet is what they're saying. So, Claire Headley, thank you so much for being willing to share your stories and experience.

Claire Headley [06:27:22] Of course. Thank you for having us.

John Dehlin [06:27:23] And Mark, thank you so much.

Marc Headley [06:27:25] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [06:27:26] So the YouTube channel is called Blown

Marc Headley [06:27:29] Flower for Good Scientology Exposing Scientology.

Claire Headley [06:27:32] Yes.

John Dehlin [06:27:32] And the book is called Long for

Marc Headley [06:27:34] Good behind the Iron Curtain of Scientology.

John Dehlin [06:27:37] And the non profit is called the Michael J.

Claire Headley [06:27:40] Render Aftermath Foundation. We also have just started a YouTube channel dedicated for those stories which is The Aftermath Foundation YouTube channel.

John Dehlin [06:27:49] Beautiful. Well, thanks for all you all do and your courage and for coming.

Claire Headley [06:27:54] Thank you so much.

Marc Headley [06:27:55] Thanks for having us.

John Dehlin [06:27:56] Thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. We couldn't do this without our donors. So if you're a donor, thank you. You made this possible. If you're not a donor and you value this content, we would love to have you become a monthly donor. Just go to MormonStories.org, click on the donate button. Become a monthly donor. We'll keep providing this content for as long as people support it. Also, there are ways to support us even if you can't donate. Don't worry about it. If you can't donate, we're happy to provide it for free. However, subscribing to the channel, liking the episodes, commenting, sharing, all helps with the algorithms.

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