Welcome and Episode Introduction

John Dehlin [00:00:28] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. We could almost call this Mormon Stories Mormon Transitions Podcast, because what we've done is we've taken these sort of more practical themes that we are releasing as Mormon Transitions episodes and we're folding them into the Mormon Stories podcast as well. Because people liked him so much that we wanted to make sure the most people as possible could check him out. And so here we are. It's June 15, 2017. My name is Sean Delin.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:05] I'm Margi Delin.

John Dehlin [00:01:06] And we're really excited to have you guys with us today.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:09] And this is our first time from our new house having Mormon Transitions.

John Dehlin [00:01:15] That's right. We're broadcasting from our new home in Holiday, Utah. And we love being here and we've loved the friendships that we've been able to get reacquainted with and the donors and the listeners that we've been able to have meetings with. Me a little bit more than you, right?

Margi Dehlin [00:01:34] Just a smidget. Smidgen more.

John Dehlin [00:01:37] But we love being here. We're in my office and it's fun. Okay, so we've got already about 23 people tuned in. We've got a little bit of announcements to make, so I'll start there. Let's see. Today's episode is around staying active in the LDS Church as either a semi believer or a non believer. And I'll just warn everybody that that means this show isn't for everybody.

John Dehlin [00:02:12] But for those of you who are interested, there are many people who either want to stay or need to stay. And this is for you. Margi and I stayed active in the church probably 13, at least 11 years, depending on how you count. Anywhere between 11 and 13 years after we either became semi believers or non believers. And we just thought about it and we actually have a lot of experience that we can offer because we did that for a long time. So that's what today's episode is about. We do have a few announcements that we want to go over first.

Upcoming Open Stories Foundation Events

John Dehlin [00:02:50] So we have several Open Stories foundation events that are coming up. July 7th and 8th will be in Dallas, Texas. We would love for any of you near Texas or who just want to travel and have fun, we're going to have a pool party. We're going to have food, barbecue.

John Dehlin [00:03:07] We're gonna hopefully do some karaoke, and we're gonna have a great time. So for those of you who are looking for support, Natasha Alfer Parker may join us. We think there's a chance she'll be able to come down.

John Dehlin [00:03:20] So join us in Dallas July 7th and 8th if you're interested. Dan Witherspoon and Natasha Hofer Parker are doing a retreat for the Mormon A thoughtful faith audience if you're and that's particularly relevant to those who are listening today. If you're trying to stay actively engaged in the church as semi or non believers or as religiously progressive or liberal Mormons, you know, check out the MormonMatters.org website where Dan's advertising the event there.

John Dehlin [00:03:51] We're having a really good event, a retreat August 11th and 12th in Salt Lake City, Utah county for mixed faith marriages. That's August 11th through 12th. Julie D' Azevodo Hanks will be joining me to co lead that retreat. Julie's a believer. She's active in the church. I'm not so active. I'd say not active and not a member anymore. So we want that retreat to be split half believers, half non believers. And we think that's going to be a fantastic event. So please register for that.

John Dehlin [00:04:24] And then September 14th and 15th will be in Seattle, Washington. October 20th 22nd will be in Sydney, Australia, based on demand from our friends in New Zealand and Australia, not because we want to take a vacation. And finally November 9th and 10th will be in the Bay Area in San Francisco. We are eager to do that. And of course, our Mormon Stories cruise to the Bahamas, again created by the request of our listeners, not because we want to take a cruise necessarily for fun. We're doing that as a service or support to those who have expressed a desire or need. That'll be October 24 to 28, 2018 again in the Bahamas.

John Dehlin [00:05:08] So if you want to attend any of those events, go to mormonstories.org events and you'll be able to see the events there. That is all we have for events. And now we're oh, I should announce that next week we're also going to be having a panel of people from the thoughtful faith community. So I'm working with Jerry Lee Renshaw to come up with just the perfect panel. We'll be announcing who's in that soon, but we're going to be doing this series for two or three sessions again just to support those who are faithful and trying to stay in the church in a constructive way.

John Dehlin [00:05:55] Let's see. Now it is time for what we call the weekly share and I'm going to be sharing this podcast episode on my wall. So Margi, while I do, would you mind beginning our share and talking about what you Wanted to share, and then I will be joining in after you do your share. Is that okay?

Margi Dehlin [00:06:16] Sure. Okay, so I'll just preface my share with the fact that I read a book called Just Mercy by Bryan Stevenson. And I read it about, I'd say, probably five or six months ago, and it just rocked my world.

Margi Dehlin [00:06:41] So anyway, with that background, it's a nonfiction book. And how would I talk about it? I would talk about it in the way what it focuses on or how many minorities are on death row in the south, particularly Southern states. So it's Bryan Stevenson's sort of personal experiences as he graduates from law school and heads down south and starts looking into it. And so it's a bit of a history, but it's also a lot of stories. It's a perfect blend because sometimes those stories can be really heavy and leave you kind of hopeless, especially as it gets into sort of how the justice system is sort of part of that and just the tragic nature of these innocent people on death row.

Margi Dehlin [00:07:35] So. But he does this great blend where you don't feel heavy the entire time. So that's a little bit of background. And I give that because Bryan Stevenson is actually part of 13th, which is a documentary that John and I just watched a couple nights ago. It's streaming from Netflix. Right. That's how we accessed it. And how would you describe 13th?

John Dehlin [00:08:00] Yeah, so. And I'm not an expert on this at all, but basically it begins by Talking about the 13th Amendment and how the 13th Amendment abolished slavery, but it made as an exception, it had some sort of exception clause saying that, you know, people that were excluded from this, from this sort of prohibition of slavery would be people who were convicted of a crime.

John Dehlin [00:08:26] And that, of course, happened in 1864, 65, whenever that amendment was approved after the Civil War ended. But. But what it really focuses on is how prisons have been used to oppress people of color for well over a century.

John Dehlin [00:08:43] And it talks about the prison population and how people in the United states have only 5% of the overall population in the world, but have 20% of the world's prisoners, and how a heavily disproportionate percentage of prisoners in the United States are people of color, African Americans and Hispanics, and how the political system has been carefully, you know, orchestrating or at least heavily influencing the incarceration of people of color. And it implies a little bit in the movie that it's being done intentionally to keep non people of color in power. And people don't like it sometimes on Mormon stories, when we talk about politics and the purpose here isn't to take a partisan position at all, Republican or Democrat.

John Dehlin [00:09:39] It's just we were heavily moved and we did not understand how the drug policy and how police policy has fed into this, this problem of incarcerating people of color, which has been, you know, a way to kind of has the outgrowth of that has been to really harm families, to tear apart nuclear families, to tear apart communities. And I think it's really had a significant impact on our culture.

Margi Dehlin [00:10:13] Yeah, it was historically quite fascinating as well. And you get to listen to recordings of past sort of not leaders, but people that influenced or were campaign managers or it's really interesting. So I feel more fully human, I would say, after watching it. So there you go. That's our share. Take it or leave it.

John Dehlin [00:10:37] All right. Thank you, sweetie. So we have several people joining us. We've already got, let's see, 67 people joining us. So that's fantastic. I'll just read through some of the comments. Daniel writes great documentary, 13th on Netflix. Well worth the watch. So thanks, Daniel. Glad you like it. Oswaldo is joining us from Peru. Hey, Oswaldo Dallin, Daniel, Leon. Hey, Leon. Lots of cool people here joining us. Pat, of course, Jana Nathan from the uk Lisa, so glad to have all of you. And we'll just want to remind our listeners, please do, please do make comments and questions because that makes our listening. We also want to welcome people from the Thoughtful Faith Community.

John Dehlin [00:11:26] We have a Thoughtful Faith Podcast hosted by Gina Colvin. We have Mormon Matters hosted by Dan Witherspoon. And one of the two Facebook communities that the Open Stories foundation sort of co sponsors is the A Thoughtful Faith Community.

John Dehlin [00:11:41] It's heavily moderated, which is a good thing. It's curated in terms of who joins. But that Facebook community is specifically created for people who want to actively stay, you know, engaged in Mormonism, whether or not they are literal believers. There are people in there who are progressive believers, semi believers, non believers, unorthodox believers. And it's a beautiful community moderated by Jerry Renshaw and Mark Crego, Dan Witherspoon and others.

John Dehlin [00:12:12] And it's just a great community. And we've invited members of that community to join us. So this is a shout out to those who have joined us. And just to introduce today's episode, I just want to give a disclaimer. There are going to be many Mormon Stories listeners who do not want to listen to today's episode because this is a really kind of almost a trigger warning. There are a lot of people that feel like staying in the LDS Church after you believe anymore is unethical, that it's immoral, that it's harmful, that it's bad.

John Dehlin [00:12:47] And I would say to them, don't listen to this episode. Margi and I obviously don't attend the Mormon Church anymore. It's not for us. However, the Open Stories foundation has as its core mission supporting people in or impacted by a religious transition. And.

John Dehlin [00:13:08] And so that means it's not just people who are leaving the church or who have left the church, but it's also people who are in the church. A lot of people want to stay because of their beliefs or their particular situations. And a lot of people need to stay, whether they don't have an option or it could impact their job or their family relationships or whatever.

John Dehlin [00:13:30] And so whether you want to stay active in the church or need to, the Open Choice foundation wants to provide you with support as well, because, frankly, the Mormon Church doesn't really provide support for unorthodox members. So we do here, and Gina and Dan do a great job with their podcast. But, you know, Margi and I were just talking and we were saying, you know, we'll have a panel to discuss this, maybe two panels. But what's for sure is that we did this for 11 years, and we did it because we wanted to, not because we felt forced or were obligated. And so today is a chance for us to sort of help kick off this episode along with the episode we did with Derek Clements last week, which was really great.

John Dehlin [00:14:11] Shout out to Derek. So that's what we're going to do today. We're going to dive in. So again, if you don't like this topic or it doesn't apply to you, please don't listen. But already we have 73 people who have joined, so we know that it's relevant to a lot of people. So as Margi and I talk about these topics, we want to invite people to make comments or to ask questions because this is not, you know, the reason why we do Facebook Live events is to have them be interactive. So please post comments and questions. Randy writes that he's watching us in between patients.

John Dehlin [00:14:50] So, Randy. Yeah. Make sure you take care of your patients. But. But as you're in between your patients, we're glad you could join us. Okay. So is Chris. So Chris and Randy are both watching and listening in between patients. So here's the first question. And Margi, what I'm gonna do is ask you the question as if you're the Interviewee, and then I'll sort of follow on as a co interviewee and then I'll kick back into inquisitor mode. Is that okay?

Why Some People Choose to Stay Active

Margi Dehlin [00:15:16] We can try that. We can try it.

John Dehlin [00:15:18] So the first question is, why would anyone wanna stay active in the church once you lost your belief? So for us, we lost our literal belief in 2000, 2001. Lots of study, Margi. I had you read no Man Knows My History by Fawn Brody. And for you, it didn't take long for your literal beliefs to completely unravel. So why. Why were you even interested in staying active after you lost your beliefs and you knew that I had lost my literal beliefs?

Margi Dehlin [00:15:51] Great question. I think. So at that point, we had moved to Utah. So in answer to your question, I think there was a lot of. I had a lot of love for the church and some of the things that they were offering our family at that point.

Margi Dehlin [00:16:10] So I think there was a lot of love for the stability and for some of the things that I was still finding there on a weekly basis. I think our children were still quite active and at that point, you know, thriving, it was a. It was a huge part of who they were. And I also feel like I was really tentative about the idea of reaching in and kind of just because I had a feeling about something or I had changed in some way, I really resisted the idea then I. Of then becoming the authority and then stepping in and saying, oh, guess what? Actually, for everyone here, you know, things have changed and so now your life will change.

Margi Dehlin [00:16:53] And our children were, you know, of thinking age at that point and really took things seriously with regard to church. Those things were probably at the forefront for me. We also had moved into a community in Utah where we were actively contributing. I think at that point I was still feeling like I had things to contribute and that I could contribute in ways that were true to me. So it was. I was in young women's for the majority of the time. I had great relationships with my. The young women presidents where I was able to teach lessons, actually, that were either not a topic in the manual or I could take a topic and then just sort of run with it a little bit.

Margi Dehlin [00:17:39] I had some leeway there, so contribution was still very real. John and I, we taught primary for many years, and it was a way. It kind of tied us to our community, to our neighborhood. We saw the faces of the kids, and again, we're able to take those really basic lessons of primary and we would skip over the ones that we didn't love. So much, but we could really take it and we played games with the kids and you know, I kind of feel like for those times it was a tie to the community in a really kind of neat way as well as I feel like with our extended family, there were some reasons there at that point in moving and some of the things that had gone on where we appreciated, I think keeping a level of connection there and not providing extra stress, let's say to grandparents or to.

Margi Dehlin [00:18:32] It just didn't feel emotionally like the right time. So those are a few of the things that I remember. What do you remember? What would you add to that?

John Dehlin [00:18:41] Yeah, so. And what I should say is for those of you who don't know about it, if you go to stale dls.com, stay lds.com There's a document there that I created with a good friend named Brian Johnston. I created it and then Brian added some things to it.

John Dehlin [00:18:57] The document is called how to stay in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints after a major challenge to your faith. And I think I wrote this in 2007, long time ago, 10 years ago. And we're using that as a framework for today's discussion. So if you want to go to staledeus.com and read that document, you can follow along. It's basically like a 50 page manual on how to stay in the church.

John Dehlin [00:19:24] So, yeah, I listed several reasons to stay there. The first reason I stayed Mormon for so long was because I loved being Mormon. We talked about this with Derek. It was my identity. I felt like it was my tribe. I am social, I am very extroverted. So I loved going to church. I loved getting to know people in the community. Having a community.

John Dehlin [00:19:45] You know, I sometimes say a lone monkey is a dead monkey. I felt like I needed a community to be healthy and happy. So reason number one is I loved it. I believe in spirituality. And even if you don't believe it's the one true church anymore, you know, whether it's the hymns or the testimony meetings, moments of vulnerability, you feel sense of spirituality there, or at least I did. So I like that.

John Dehlin [00:20:15] Community is important. Yeah, family, you know, we thought at the time I had been sort of conditioned to feel like if you don't have a church and if you don't raise your kids in the church, you know, you might cheat on your spouse or your kids might become drug addicts or prostitutes and I'd really internalize that. So for me it was sort of interwoven into my sense of how to have a Happy and healthy marriage and how to raise happy, healthy kids. So for me, you know, and you can still believe that the church can be a good support to family. Even if you don't believe it's necessary or essential to have a healthy, happy

Margi Dehlin [00:20:58] family, or even if you feel like they may get some things wrong, you can still use those as opportunities to connect more deeply, especially in your nuclear family.

John Dehlin [00:21:07] Yeah. So you can do it for the family, you can do it for your children. Now, of course, a lot of people are like, oh my gosh, that's why I don't go to church, because of my children. I don't want my children to be corrupted or polluted or whatever. That's a valid perspective. But it's also valid to say there's a lot of things that children can get. They can get friends, they can get social conditioning, they can get a sense of morality. And there are things you can do to buffer or neutralize the damaging messages that they receive. They can learn to public speaking. They can learn, have service opportunities.

John Dehlin [00:21:45] I am not one of those who thinks that it's toxic and evil to raise your kids Mormon. I think that you just have to keep your wits about you. And it can be, if you have the right leadership, if you have the right culture in your ward, it can be good for children to be raised Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:22:03] Clean living. I felt like I wanted to live a happy, healthy, moral life. And I felt like the church could provide positive reinforcements to that, whether it's the reminders to be a good husband or a good father, or to be honest or to stay moral, all that stuff.

John Dehlin [00:22:22] I'm still one who believes there's a lot of good that happens within a church. I also wrote in this document that it may not be the true church, but maybe it's one of the best churches out there. I know that's going to be polarizing or controversial for many, but that's what I wrote at the time.

John Dehlin [00:22:39] And even some of the doctrine, if you talk about Christ's teachings, service, kindness, charity, emphasis on family, those all things can be good. So those are some of the reasons that I think I wanted to stay.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:55] Awesome.

John Dehlin [00:22:56] Yeah. And it can be devastating to parents, to in laws, to siblings, and a lot of times we just don't want to rock the boat

Margi Dehlin [00:23:09] or even more, I think too, it can be where we assess our own situation and we can know where we are with regard to, like, is it right for our family right now to do this? And being able to, you know what I mean? Because there is legitimately there is some stress, there is some to doing it. And so I do feel like there's such a thing as looking at a whole picture and saying it's really, it's not the time.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:37] My children, I don't feel like my children necessarily, it's going to be great for them or they should have some say. So a very personal thing. And that's why I feel so strongly about doing this, because it's really about meeting people where they are and allowing people to feel like there are many ways to do things right. There are many ways to do things in a way that's thoughtful and where you're truly valuing goodness, you know, in your life.

John Dehlin [00:24:07] So, yes, really quickly, I'll read some comments and questions from our listeners. Comments Christy writes, this is a topic I've been trying to think through for myself. Susan writes, I want to hear more about the buffers, in other words, how to neutralize the damaging messages your kids and we will get into that. We're not going to hit that right now, but we will get into that.

John Dehlin [00:24:29] All right, so lots of good engagements on the podcast and we'll be checking in with other comments on Facebook really soon. So just let me see. Wynn writes, John, what I really respect about you is that you can keep it positive when talking about the church. Even after what happened, guys like me hold on to their anger like a warm blanket. Thanks for modeling such good behavior. Thanks, Win.

John Dehlin [00:24:54] Appreciate that. Jerry writes, did you ever enjoy temple work or believe it to be Christlike? We'll talk about the temple later. But I never really enjoyed the temple. Honestly. I tried. I tried really hard.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:08] But for people that do, that's one of the things that you can definitely keep and, you know, allow in for joy, you know. Yeah, a keeper.

John Dehlin [00:25:19] All right, so keep the comments and questions going. We love it. So. All right, so we've talked a bit about why, why stay? And so now let's talk about some of the mindsets that you have to adopt to be able to stay.

Overcoming the Binary True-or-False Mindset

John Dehlin [00:25:38] The first one, I think is about the binary, you know, true and false worldview. I think that once you, once you no longer, you know, once you discover that the church isn't true, you know, you had a black and white mindset. And oftentimes once you decide the church isn't true or it isn't what it claims to be, you just have this mindset where, okay, if it's not true, it's false and then you got to get out of it. And that's a reasonable point of view. But, you know, when I was in this mindset, one of the things that I would think is, you know, the world isn't black and white.

John Dehlin [00:26:13] The world is gray. And actually the world is multicolor. And one of the constructs that I had in my mind is there's not an organization in the world that's either all good or all bad. Everything's gray or multicolored color. And so you have to just sort of allow yourself to have a non binary worldview, I think. In this document we wrote, is a ham sandwich true or false? A ham sandwich is just a ham sandwich. It can be tasty for some, not tasty for others, healthy in some ways, unhealthy in others. But you don't go around saying, is my burrito true? You know, you're like, I'll have a burrito today because it's good enough.

John Dehlin [00:26:50] And I think you have to adopt that mindset to be able to stay in the church. What do you think about that, getting rid of the binary mindset?

Margi Dehlin [00:26:58] I think it's really true. And I did notice amidst, like the times when we would bear our testimony in this kind of phase, we, we eliminated true from the way we would express ourselves, became good or, you know, we would try and talk about how it worked for us or how it.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:19] And so that, that was a very apparent way. I feel like that it was conveyed in the way we lived another way though too. And this is a little bit of a different take on the true and false. But it's also that idea of fall in line for your own family, for your own, where everyone should view their church experience the same, everyone should read a scripture and feel the same way about it. Everyone should feel this sort of absolutist principle. And that I feel like falls into the true and false binary a little bit, that inflexibility of thinking. And what we're trying to introduce is this notion of flexibility.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:58] And that happened a lot around our dinner table after church was this new concept of that's another way the true false binary world would. You could see it in our home. Is that how we, how we talked about our church experience, even how we viewed attending church from being told this idea of being told truth right versus being able to say, hey, we're exposed to a lot of ideas there. We hear a lot of things, you know, spouse and children, and let's talk about those things when we get home and let's hear what, what we think. And it became this opportunity to really engage in meaningful conversation. So all those Things I feel like were physical manifestations of us moving away from the true false binary.

John Dehlin [00:28:45] Yeah, I remember times our kids coming to us and saying it's really confusing for us to go to church or seminary because we believe differently than everybody else. And oftentimes we have to remain silent because people aren't comfortable with our points of view, but they're totally comfortable expressing their own viewpoints that I disagree with. And I remember having talks with my kids about how good it was them, good it was for them. Just have the practice of being around people that view things differently. It teaches you to listen, it teaches you that you don't always have to say what you think, but. But it teaches you tact.

John Dehlin [00:29:21] So maybe you can share thoughts or feelings, but in diplomatic ways. But more importantly, it exposes them to views that aren't their own. And there's a value in that, even if it's not always reinforcing of the views that they have. And I told them, you're going to be in job situations where you don't agree with everybody, you're going to be in school situations where you don't agree with anybody and you're not always going to be able to say exactly what you think or feel.

John Dehlin [00:29:47] So I do think that without trying to brag about our kids, that exposing them to the church after we were non believers or non literal believers helped them become more mature and gave them more social depth, adeptness or ability. And again, my point isn't to brag. Do you see some truth in that?

Margi Dehlin [00:30:10] Or I see what you're saying. And I also feel like it does sort of present this opportunity, if you will, with the right mindset to go into a situation and potentially create some empathy between you and someone who is speaking and believing things that are really different from you. Because oftentimes you have enough exposure to that person to get know a little bit about their background, to know a little bit about their life circumstances to have. I think that repeated exposure can build potentially a level of empathy where you can go deeper. You can see why the church would fill in some of those holes for them and why they would come to some of the conclusions perhaps that they have, even if it would never work for you.

John Dehlin [00:31:01] Yeah, it's, you know, and that that goes to this Eugene England idea that he wrote an essay called why the Church is As True as the Gospel. It's kind of a Mormon classic. And he basically argues go to church because people are different than you. Go to church because they often teach things that are damaging because what it does is it teaches you empathy, it teaches you patience, it teaches you love. It keeps you out of an echo chamber. And it's a place to serve and to serve other people. And it's gonna make you a deeper and a richer and a more expansive

Margi Dehlin [00:31:33] human and a place to practice.

John Dehlin [00:31:36] Practice virtues. Right.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:37] To. Actually, it is the practice field. Because if you're just surrounded by people who are always like you, really, you know, where is the real sort of practice of these values of compassion, of forgiveness, of, you know. Anyway.

John Dehlin [00:31:54] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:55] Right.

John Dehlin [00:31:55] Yeah. And I think that's. You know, some people are gonna say it's too traumatic. Like, I had a listener write me last week that said she was having panic attacks attending church, and in her case, she has an LGBT child, and she was, like, worried about possibly fatal messages that her child was receiving. In that case, she shouldn't go. Like, if church is so toxic and traumatic for you that it's actually harmful and miserable, don't go. Right.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:30] Absolutely. I hope that's just sort of. There's an assumptive quality to that, that we are really only speaking to people today where, yeah, this would feel good to them, that this falls in line with their greater values. Clearly, if you are having.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:49] And we were there. I mean, we. At some point, we were in a lot of different places during this, but towards the end, we were not attending every week because it became more burdensome for us to do so. We did it more as a support to our children. We had different. But we very much, I feel like, weighed our situation, weighed our personal feelings. Sometimes John and I would switch off, so we didn't even have to go every week. And so clearly we would be supportive of people really doing their own work that way and being able to have this as an option that is really, truly good for you and good for your family.

John Dehlin [00:33:28] All right, I'm looking at the comments and questions. Melissa writes, I'm making ham sandwiches right now for lunch. That's good to know. There's several people saying that it's immoral or gaslighting to stay in the church. If you don't believe, I would invite you guys either to not listen or not comment. Because we've made several disclaimers that this is not for everyone, and if this isn't for you, please don't join. But there are people who need this, and so, you know, please don't be making those comments. It's not in the context of what we're doing here. Sylvan writes, as long as the church maintains it's the only true church, then it's difficult or impossible to be a part of it.

John Dehlin [00:34:08] The church is binary. And that's true. That's true. But that doesn't mean that it has to be that way for you. One of the things I really respect is, and this is something Derek said in the interview last week, Derek Clements, I really recommend you listen to it. Gina Colvin says this all the time. Just because the traditional, average Mormon thinks the church is or should be a certain way, and they would even say, even if the First Presidency and the apostles think that the church is or. Or needs to be a certain way, that doesn't mean the members need to believe that or follow it.

John Dehlin [00:34:42] And technically that's true. You know, we know that the church leaders have changed dramatically over the past 150 years. Polygamy was in, polygamy was out. Dynastic ceilings were in. Then they're out. Blacks couldn't be. Actually, they could be priests and holders, and they couldn't. And they could be again. Lots and lots of changes. So I guess you could argue if you don't like what the leaders are teaching or believing, just wait a while and it'll change.

John Dehlin [00:35:13] But really, the point that Gina or anyone else, Derek or Dan would make would be don't let that control your behavior. If you find value in the church, if you feel like it could help you in some way, it doesn't matter what the leaders or the most orthodox or the average member believes. What matters is what you believe and what is useful for you. Really quickly.

John Dehlin [00:35:36] Lots of comments saying that they love having Margi on the show. Josh writes, margie is the better half, and I won't be offended at that. Wynn writes, I really like Margi on the show. I enjoy her perspective and love to see more podcasts of us together.

John Dehlin [00:35:51] So Win's really enjoying you being here. I love having Margi on, too. Josh writes, I think it's good for people to do whatever works for them. To hell with other people's opinions. Do what feels in line with your integrity. And that's the spirit of this show. It's not recommending this path, it's just exploring it for those who find value in it. Okay, so I'm gonna jump to another point that I think is really important, and it's this idea of fully embracing the title of Buffet Mormon. So obviously, once the church is no longer what you know, once you see the church is no longer being what it claims to be, and once you no longer see it as true or the One true church.

Adopting a Buffet Approach to Church Participation

John Dehlin [00:36:35] But you still find that it's good. One thing I think you have to do is embrace this idea of being a buffet Mormon. What do I mean by buffet Mormon? It means like a cafeteria Mormon. There's cafeteria Catholics, buffet Catholics, cafeteria buffet Jews, cafeteria Jews, you know, unorthodox Jews, progressive Jews, reformed Jews. And the idea is, take what you like from the buffet or the cafeteria and leave whatever you don't like, period. And for many, that feels, like, impossible within Mormonism and immoral. But the truth is, everyone is a buffet Mormon. Before I jump into that more, Margi, in what ways did you embrace the idea of being a buffet Mormon? And how were you a different Mormon than an orthodox Mormon as an unorthodox Mormon?

Margi Dehlin [00:37:31] Well, I definitely. What immediately comes to mind for me was the temple. So for me, the temple was always a difficult relationship. I never felt like I had the connection that I was supposed to. I never found the inspiration or that I always felt like I had been told about. And so during this phase, what I feel like I was able to do was to let it go. Just let it go. Right?

John Dehlin [00:38:01] I don't think. I think you maybe attended the temple three times in, like, 13 years. Is that right?

Margi Dehlin [00:38:10] I don't think it's too far.

John Dehlin [00:38:11] I mean, and it was only when there was a wedding or, you know, like a wedding.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:16] I feel like at the beginning, I gave a good shot. I feel like there were at least a few times of honestly saying, maybe I missed it. Now let's go back over it just one more time. Maybe I this time, or maybe I'm in a different place, but you're right. At a certain point, I just. I let it go. And I think an important.

John Dehlin [00:38:33] And you didn't feel bad about it. You weren't like, oh, I feel so guilty. I don't go to the temple.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:37] You're just like, you know why?

John Dehlin [00:38:38] Temple's not for me.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:39] Do you know why? Because it's like any other relationship where that negativity, if you try, if you're. You're still wrapped up in kind of trying that ideal and making it work, or you're so fixated on that thing that really just factually is not working for you. It's like any other relationship, your husband, where you're fixated on some aspect of his personality you really can't do a ton about, right? It will, over time, erode the relationship. So this is a really key part. I feel like it allows the relationship to remain healthy. It allows it to actually, I feel like have its best shot of lasting and remaining relevant to you.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:22] So the temple is something that initially comes up for me that I let go. And I was just going to add with that, as much as we want to talk about buffeting and not what the things you don't choose. Right. It's really important the things you do choose, that you just maximize those. Like really have them work for you, really think of ways that they can fulfill you and just really maximize those choices. I feel like it's a mixture of both.

John Dehlin [00:39:52] Yeah, yeah, I know. I know certain Mormons, some of them high profile, who just decided, I don't want a temple recommend. I'm never going to have one. I'll just tell the leaders I'm not going to have one. And I'll miss my kids weddings or I'll miss those celebrations. But it's just, you know, maybe I want to drink a beer. Maybe I don't want to pay tithing. Maybe I don't agree or want to support the church in that way. So anyway, lots of people do that. I think temple attendance is a great idea of being a buffet Mormon. How about tithing? How do we handle tithing? Once we became liberal.

Navigating Tithing, the Temple, and Recommends

Margi Dehlin [00:40:27] Yes. So we still wanted to observe. Well, we went through different phases, I feel like, through this. Initially, I feel like the first step was didn't we do fast offerings or.

John Dehlin [00:40:40] Yeah, we would pay. Well, some. Yeah, we would definitely pay to the humanitarian fund or the fast offering.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:47] When we could specify.

John Dehlin [00:40:49] I hear, well, say what we did and then we'll talk about.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:53] So we did that in lieu of. We gave the same amount, but we would try and control where it went,

John Dehlin [00:41:00] thinking that the money would go to the poor or the hungry or, you

Margi Dehlin [00:41:04] know, disaster relief in our ward who needed assistance.

John Dehlin [00:41:09] Right.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:09] It was, it was more in line, I think, with sort of the values of the time.

John Dehlin [00:41:13] Yeah. Now, since then, I think they've actually changed the tithing slip to say with like an asterisk. You can designate where this money goes, but ultimately we can do with it whatever we want. Those are my words, not the church's. But so some may feel still confident that the church will use their money as designated. So for those of you paying more to the fast offerings, your humanitarian fund can be great. What did we do once we decided we weren't sure that we had confidence in how the church is going to use them?

Margi Dehlin [00:41:42] Yeah, once we felt a little bit. Yeah, we had lost some confidence there. What we would do was split. We would split our. We still observed tithing, but Then we picked our own charities that we felt in line with and we would either split it and go half and half or alternate months giving to various things that we. And that was really a fun way to do it.

John Dehlin [00:42:07] There's Women for Women where you would support women in developing countries. There was heifer international where water.org Smile train where money would go to fix cleft pallets of children. And wasn't it incredible to live the law of tithing but giving to charities where you knew the money would be used charitably.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:28] Yeah. And we also did this near and far thing. We would donate like to our local community if there were. Remember we did that with English Language center in Logan, Utah where they teach people to all large like a lot of things, but it's mainly how to speak English, but also how to live in America. Many refugees, you know, go through that. So we just, we kind of picked and we also did family members. If there was a family member that was struggling or needed money or.

John Dehlin [00:42:59] Yeah, that was a huge one.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:01] Personal. Through personal relationships. If we felt like someone could really. Then we felt empowered if it was gonna. If it was gonna.

John Dehlin [00:43:08] If a sibling or a cousin or a ward member, you know, had a surgery or some car breakdown, it was super rewarding to take, you know, the thousands of dollars we were paying and sometimes redirect it towards people who really needed it.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:22] Now something other people do. We happen to be largely on the same page, but let's assume maybe you're in a marriage where you are not. And let's say that there's, you know, sort of the traditional believer and then say a more. What would you say?

John Dehlin [00:43:37] I'm really non believer.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:38] I'm really bad with labels and I really don't love the non believer thing, but I'll go with it for just now. But let's say you're kind of in a multi faith marriage that way. What I've heard people do is they just split it in half so that the traditional believer pays how she or he wants to and then the other spouse gets to pay the way they. And I think that's a, that's a great way to think through.

John Dehlin [00:44:04] And we'll get to the temple recommend questions later. But you know, the temple recommends questions ultimately let you decide whether you're worthy or not. So if you're comfortable saying I pay a full tithe and in your mind, you know that you're paying that to non church sources, that's totally up to you. If you feel good with God. I remember many years Just saying, hey, as long as I feel good with God, if I feel I'm a full tithe bearer, I'm a full tithe bearer. You know what I mean?

Margi Dehlin [00:44:30] And even with your concept of God, if you're. If you believe in a God that honestly would feel equally satisfied about you supplying clean water to people on earth as you know, I think it kind of ties back to sort of how you view God that way, too.

John Dehlin [00:44:47] Now, I'll be honest. For me, I started feeling like I wasn't being honest in my temple recommend interviews. So that didn't last. It lasted for a few years, but it didn't last forever. Okay, Sunday meeting. I'm just gonna go through some of these pretty quickly. Sunday meetings. What did we do as buffet Mormons about Sunday meetings?

Margi Dehlin [00:45:05] Well, I want to hear your responses. I feel like you're asking.

John Dehlin [00:45:08] We would, we would sometimes just go every other week. We would just say we'll go every other week. And some Sundays we'll stay home and have breakfast and go on hikes and have fun. And then some Sundays we'll go and we didn't feel like we had to go every week.

Margi Dehlin [00:45:20] Well, and earlier on, I also feel like, let's say I felt like the first and the third meetings were easier for me. Like I was in Young women's and the family was together for the first meeting. So maybe I would bring a book and we'll get to that more later. But a supplemental book, and I would just read to myself in the lobby or go out to the car and read a book that I felt like inspired me and made me feel. And so we might opt out of

John Dehlin [00:45:49] meeting or talk to people in the lobby. And for those who are in Utah, there's a luxury. Usually home is like a one minute walk away. So we walk home and come back, right?

Margi Dehlin [00:45:59] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:46:00] Sometimes when Margi and I were really working on our marriage, we would go home during the second hour and do marriage strengthening exercises as a couple, leave our kids at church, and then come back for the third hour. Because I liked Elders Quorum at the time, believe it or not.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:16] Yeah. I think the point is to kind of be flexible and find ways that you can add value to the experience.

John Dehlin [00:46:25] With callings, we just got comfortable telling the bishop no for any calling we didn't want. We would make an excuse or find a diplomatic way to say no or blame it on some. If we could think of some bad thing that was happening in the family. But yeah, don't take the callings. You don't like People, period. Right.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:42] I love how you say that you would come up with an excuse. It's awesome. But I do think there's something to that. When you start valuing your time and your energy. And for me, that was always true. And I always felt like almost every time I had a baby, I'd get hit up with some really demanding calling. They'd ask me to do something like a really demanding calling. And I would always say, if I cannot go every. If I don't have to teach every Sunday, if I don't, I would basically build parameters where I felt like I could honor myself in that space. And I think that's important.

Margi Dehlin [00:47:21] And if I. You're right. If they called me to be choir director, I would be like, you know, honestly, I have no background or ward mission leader. Yes. I have no background there. I have no real interest there. And I feel extremely limited in my circumstances around that. So I'm gonna have to. And I became very good at the no. At the no. But, you know, I really would love to be involved in the ward in other areas. Here are all the other areas, you know, I'm interested in. Please keep me in mind. And ending it in a positive way versus just no, nah, don't want it.

John Dehlin [00:47:58] And honestly, we ended up in primary. We were just pretty much, we were in primary for like 10 years.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:03] But that was in the non trusted stage when we were in the non.

John Dehlin [00:48:06] When we were a little bit. Yeah, I'm just saying. But over time, and this goes to the point I was about to make, the church doesn't operate this way for many leaders, especially in Utah, where there's a million people and they can have their pick of who they want to lead wards. And so one of the requirements that you have to sort of develop as you're taking this approach is to unplug from caring about what leadership or others in the ward think about you. Because as soon as they know you're off script, as soon as they know you're non binary, as soon as they know you're non traditional, you can get a little either symbolic or literal asterisk associated with your.

John Dehlin [00:48:50] With your identity. And that's something that Mormons are really uncomfortable with. We think you're either all in or all out. You have to be with the program or gone. And that's not true. There's a ton of Mormons who don't believe, who are active or who don't do everything they're told.

John Dehlin [00:49:08] We're just conditioned to think that it has to be all or nothing but. And so once you start going off script and doing it your own way, you're gonna get weird looks from your bishop and you're gonna get, you know, mentioned in ward council and you're gonna become a project or become person of concern by members.

John Dehlin [00:49:27] And what we had to do is just to become comfortable with knowing that we were comfortable and confident in who we were being and that we didn't really care if the bishop saw us as different or if the ward members didn't see us as devout. We're just like, that's no longer going to be part of our identity. It's kind of the Nephi complex. You have to lose the Nephi complex.

John Dehlin [00:49:51] Just be comfortable with being viewed as a second class member. And that sounds awful, but sometimes if you enjoy what the church is offering, the benefits can outweigh the costs. Yes, you're good at that. You're really good at not caring what other people think. I'm not as good at that.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:09] Well, I don't know. I don't know if that. I think what happens is as you make something, some of these decisions, it feels so good to live it, that that just becomes the more important thing. Because what you realize then is, you know, do I take the calling? Because I, in this meeting, I don't want to disappoint this man before me that knows nothing about my life, my values, what I'm holding right now and what I'm capable of or. And so that's more what I feel is the more you sort of make those decisions from a values place, from yourself, the more you're reinforced and the more fulfilled you feel.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:50] And so to me, it really, it filled me up in a way that I would choose that kind of more and more. And one thing I think also is important, you ran a podcast. So we kind of came into it with some things that I think a lot of families or couples don't, is when you're making some of these decisions, really, really look at what you value. And if you don't want to be identified, if you don't want to sort of have the asterisk, that should be part of this decision making process and how you go about talking about a calling to the bishop, that would matter and it should be under, I think, something that you consider.

Talking to Bishops and Setting Boundaries with Leaders

Margi Dehlin [00:51:31] That's what I'd say because you actually have a lot of power, a lot of say in how this all sort of goes down. I know there are those leaders that are just, you know, I know they exist. I've heard lots and lots of stories. But I think by and large what you what you give and learning not to give too much and in learning how to sort of work through these things, do you agree that you can do things? So what I'm saying is that you don't out yourself. So if that's important to you, there is a way you can do both.

John Dehlin [00:52:05] Yeah, you can be diplomatic and subtle or fib.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:08] Not give reasons.

John Dehlin [00:52:09] Yep. Not give reasons. Just say something to the effect of our families were faithful. Everyone's okay. We're just going through some stuff right

Margi Dehlin [00:52:19] now where this would be too much.

John Dehlin [00:52:21] We just need, you know, if you can just give us a little time, just kind of be vague and general and sometimes that can be enough. Before I turn to listener comments and questions, this Buffet Mormon thing applies to the teachings as well. So obviously if there's doctrine or teachings that the church has that LGBT people are bad, that same sex marriage is bad, that women shouldn't be leaders, or that, you know, you shouldn't show your shoulders, you know, if you're a female or you know, even if, if you believe that drinking beer is consistent with the word of Wisdom, which I have news for you, it is.

John Dehlin [00:53:03] The word of wisdom allows mild drinks of barley and what they meant when they wrote that was beer. I've never tried beer, but some people drink beer and teach gospel doctrine. So anyway, feel comfortable getting rid of or tossing or denying or just keeping quiet to yourself your non belief in any of the doctrine that you don't believe in or like?

John Dehlin [00:53:27] I think that can be really helpful. Okay. So Jennifer writes, I worry about what people think of me. Always have. And this continues to be a struggle. It's gotten better, but it's always going to be a lifelong challenge. That's true.

John Dehlin [00:53:46] It's really hard. David writes, my home teaching companion is messaging me as we speak. Very good guy. But I've repeatedly asked to no longer be assigned a home teaching family. I would gladly volunteer for service opportunities for anyone in the ward. I've also turned down many callings. My reason? I may have other plans on Sunday that will keep me with my family where I want to be. I don't want to be in Sunday meetings all day long.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:12] It's a key insight.

John Dehlin [00:54:15] Linda writes, this is a great podcast. It takes a lot of courage and strong emotional health to be a Buffet Mormon and set these boundaries. I think it's commendable when people are able to do it. I think you're right. It does take a lot of privilege and strength and courage.

John Dehlin [00:54:30] Or sometimes people do it because they're forced. But also it can take courage and strength to leave as well. So I think it's true on both sides of the equation. Brittany asks, in your opinion, is it possible to be in CES as a teacher with this approach to Mormonism?

John Dehlin [00:54:48] Yes, I think you have to be more tricky. I think you have to be more diplomatic and subtle. But I do think it's possible. In fact, I was a buffet Mormon as a seminary teacher. Now, that wasn't a paid CES instructor. You do have to keep your temple recommend if you're gonna be on the church's payroll as a CES instructor. So in that case, you, you probably have to just be super diplomatic or lie. But David Buckavoy is a perfect example of a CES instructor who I know is a non literal believer. And I don't know what his practices are, but I'm guessing they're an orthoprax in some ways.

John Dehlin [00:55:24] So, yes, it is possible. Ask David Bachavoy. Jerry writes, saying no to callings and request for talks is very empowering. A simple no with no explanation can be all that is needed.

Margi Dehlin [00:55:35] I agree.

John Dehlin [00:55:36] You like that. Another thing is, we told the bishops, you'll never be alone with any of our children, period. So if you ever want to interview one of our kids, for whatever reason, one of us will be there. And that's another way that we kept things healthy for our children. All right, so John Faust, John Faust, my dear nephew, writes.

Margi Dehlin [00:56:07] What do you think he's referring to?

John Dehlin [00:56:09] He writes the term sacrament delight after sacrament after sacrament delight. I don't know. Is he talking about going home and coming back? Anyway, shout out to John. Tell us more.

Margi Dehlin [00:56:20] John.

John Dehlin [00:56:22] Catherine writes, this depends on your bishop. Some bishops are not going to be accepting about things like a partial tithe. And that's true. And isn't that crazy? Some people have bishops that say, I don't care if you're an atheist. You can teach Sunday school and you can have a temple recommend other people. Bishops will get upset if you don't pay on your tithing, on your gross versus your net.

Margi Dehlin [00:56:47] So one thing we did was we didn't provide information that way. We didn't go to tithing settlement anymore. Once we started doing things in a different way, we became very tight lipped about how much money he made, about how much. So there was enough gray area and leeway most of the time.

John Dehlin [00:57:04] Yeah. Chris writes a really important question. Were you allowed to perform priesthood ordinances during this time of your Membership. Were you allowed to participate in your children's church milestones, give talks, attend the temple? Did you ever feel like this system led to a public shaming for you?

John Dehlin [00:57:21] Some bishops are not tolerant of the Middle Way, Chris. The answer is yes, yes, yes, and no. No, no. There were times where we had leaders that were tolerant, and they let us do all these things. I spoke with my stake president for a year to be able to get to baptize Winston.

John Dehlin [00:57:37] He had to wait till he was nine. But eventually I was able to baptize him, but I definitely had to work really hard at it and be patient and be diplomatic. So it's possible. And they're also one of the most important Mormon Stories episodes ever was the Dan Witherspoon Tom Kimball episode on Stages of Faith, very early in Mormon Stories, where Dan Witherspoon told this really sad example of how he was denied the ability to ordain his son. But he stayed. And when they ordained his son, he actually spoke to everybody at the ordination and said, I'm not ordaining my son. But it's not because I'm unworthy.

John Dehlin [00:58:21] It's just because right now I see things differently than my bishop, and this is what I've chose to do. So, yes, you can find bishops who are tolerant and supportive and lets you perform all the priesthood ordinances. Sometimes it may cause you so much guilt and shame that you don't feel comfortable performing the ordinances.

John Dehlin [00:58:41] And of course, there's always the issue of temple recommends and being denied temple attendance. And all I can say is ecclesiastical roulette. Sometimes you'll be allowed, and sometimes you won't be discreet. Sometimes you just don't tell them everything. And don't give that power to the leaders to control whether or not you're in the temple. We'll get to the temple in just a second. And then sometimes these ordinances and temple access just become shaming mechanisms that are really gross and disgusting.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:10] And in that case, I'd say it becomes a boundaries discussion. So two things that came up for me when you were talking that also changed for us is I think at one point there was a bit of a relationship with authority, right previous to sort of us being buffet Mormons that we lost amidst the process. Instead of having an authority figure asking you questions about the temple, or what I saw was a peer, right, who was in a position, trying to do the best he could, doing. And that allowed for me to navigate the situation, I feel, from a place of integrity and from a more healthy standpoint. And then the second part stems from that. Once you're out of the authority, I feel like relationship, you're more apt to be able to. To put up boundaries, necessary boundaries that protect you and your values and your intentions.

John Dehlin [01:00:12] I love it. Melissa asks, when you taught primary, did you find yourself being careful of teaching the doctrine from the manual?

Margi Dehlin [01:00:19] Well, what I remember about primary was so much, was like, we love animals. We love the area that was, that

John Dehlin [01:00:26] was more like, like, like nursery.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:29] No.

John Dehlin [01:00:30] And five, six year olds.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:31] It was what we were teaching. Yeah, we were teaching the younger. But we did have. I think there was one about Noah, maybe Noah. We did have a few lessons where we just skipped it. We just literally didn't teach that lesson. So, yeah, I remember there being a handful, but I remember being surprised because there were so many topics that we could sort of expand on. But we usually didn't use the manual. We didn't use the stories from the manual, the scriptures from the manual. We just would use sort of the topic or the value.

John Dehlin [01:01:06] Let's face it, most wards are just grateful to have their Sunday school teachers show up. So, yeah, skip teaching anything you don't feel comfortable teaching.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:14] We brought a treat. We played games with them, we took them on nature walks.

John Dehlin [01:01:18] And then I also remember when I taught elders quorum and you taught young women, we would create our whole lessons, whole cloth, from scratch. Wouldn't even use the manual many times. And again, mileage will vary depending on your leaders and your ward culture. But I have. I know you know your sister. Like there are a lot of people that teach gospel doctrine and creative ways. Do it in creative ways, right?

Margi Dehlin [01:01:44] Yep. And cultivate meaningful discussion.

John Dehlin [01:01:46] Yeah. Okay. Chris writes, I was denied being able to bless my daughter a couple weeks ago. And that's why I asked about ordinations and such. It was a very sad experience for me. Chris, we're sorry that happened. That's terrible when that happens.

John Dehlin [01:02:02] Susan writes, would you still recommend the approach of requiring an adult to be present with your kid during interviews if you are divorced and you're your ex spouse and children at TBM and you've withdrawn your membership? Susan writes, she's concerned that could backfire, that the kids and the ex would resent that. But it is a concern.

John Dehlin [01:02:23] You know, I can't give you answers on that. Do you have an answer for Susan? It may be more trouble than it's worth, honestly. But if you have a decent relationship with your ex, what you might do is, is express to them your concerns about masturbation, about abuse, about that sort of thing, and just politely ask if they'd consider that. Of course, as a parent, you have the right to do whatever you want. But if you're trying to maintain a good relationship with your ex and kids, that may be really dramatic.

John Dehlin [01:02:59] You have your right to do it. But you may decide to try and work a little bit more subtly and see if you can get your ex to respect that request from you.

Margi Dehlin [01:03:08] That might be the place that I would start. The other thing I like the idea of is maybe through conversations and good connecting times with your children, really trying to cultivate an atmosphere of them feeling empowered about things that should be theirs, things that are private to them. And. And this can go into. I mean, we start young with certain things with good touch, bad touch, or whatever. These are conversations that I feel like as our children grow, this would be a situation where you can talk about privacy and how they want to. How I would ask a lot of questions about how they want to navigate this for themselves. Private details when they decide to share when they don't, and get really curious about them and try to have these open discussions. I think even doing that sort of puts it in their level, what, their awareness.

John Dehlin [01:04:09] Yeah. My dear friend Kimberly writes, this conversation is super important. I appreciate the candor and willingness to talk about your own journey. Kimberly writes, being a buffet Mormon is wrapped up in a lot of CIS and het privilege. What I think she means is cisgender and heterosexual privilege.

John Dehlin [01:04:29] And that's absolutely true. Kimberly and I tried to address that earlier, and I'll keep saying it. The ability to do this, you know, progressive Mormonism thing oftentimes requires you to be educated, upper middle class, heterosexual cisgender. Because, for example, if you're a transgender Mormon. I know there are some trans Mormons who are active. We had some on the show. But for many, it's deathly, it's toxic. It. It's fatal to continually be in a place where you feel assaulted. Same with, you know, gay and lesbian and bisexual Mormons sometimes. Same with people of color, sometimes feminists, you know.

John Dehlin [01:05:13] So 100% agree, Kimberly, that the ability to do this is wrapped up in privilege. I talked with Derek Clements a lot about this last week. He agreed as well. And so, Kimberly, thank you for sharing that. And I 100% agree that many times it's a matter of privilege. David writes, I was allowed to baptize my two children with the commitment of attending church consistently for one month. So I'm guessing David was inactive. He told the bishop, I'll attend for A month. And the bishop's like, okay, the bishop knew of his concerns and questions. He even offered that his father in law performed the ordinance.

John Dehlin [01:05:51] But regardless, he was allowed to baptize. And I think it says confirm his kid with only a month's attendance prior. He says, needless to say, the only confirmation I received was that this is another man made church. So it sounds like he tried to get spiritual witness during that time, but it didn't happen.

John Dehlin [01:06:16] Okay. Laurie writes, we have a dissenter. I love dissenters. Laurie writes, I think this is a sad way to look at the church and the gospel. She's not sure if the Lord would approve. Laurie, thank you for your candor, Margi. Laurie says the Lord wouldn't approve with this approach. What do you say to Laurie?

Margi Dehlin [01:06:34] Well, I say to Laurie she is completely entitled to that opinion. And I think this really goes to, to your concept of God and what that means. And my concept of God would be the more people that are on this growth sort of path and finding reasons to love people and serve people and find enrichment and meaning in their lives is the more the better. And so I love the idea of a God that meets people where they are and offers a ton of choices. So that works for me. But I can understand if it doesn't, it doesn't work for you. So you may want to listen somewhere else because it's only going to be more of the same, I'm afraid, Laurie,

John Dehlin [01:07:24] at least for today. Laurie. I would also just add that there are a lot of people in the world who are comfortable saying what God would or would not approve of. And I think everybody has the right to decide for themselves what they think God does or doesn't approve of. I think we should always be really careful asserting for other people what God wouldn't. Wouldn't approve of. You've got God approving of murder, not approving of murder, approving of polygamy, not approving of polygamy. God changing his mind on all sorts of commandments or teachings. He says don't kill. Then he tells Nephi to kill Laban. And then you've got all sorts of people justifying God's will in their behavior.

John Dehlin [01:08:04] The people, the men who flew the airplanes into the Twin Towers felt like God, you know, was, was telling them to do that. The Lafferty brothers, when they murdered people, felt like God was telling them to murder people. So I just think we should all be really careful about deciding what God does or doesn't want. Certainly we can have our own beliefs or Interpretations, but let's definitely not push that on other people.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:31] Mia has an interesting question.

John Dehlin [01:08:33] Mia has an interesting question. Where is it? Oh, yes, go ahead.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:39] How do you shift to a cafeteria Mormon without harming the community that you formerly led or taught, specifically youth? I know many of my family and friends are afraid that by shifting they will harm the testimonies of those whom they have been leaders of. They would like to shift without feeling responsible for others leaving. What do you say to that, John?

John Dehlin [01:08:58] What would you say? Do you want me to answer? Yeah, I'm going to answer with Andy. Andy writes, teaching colleagues are one of the best ways for non orthodox members to make a difference in wards. I don't. You know, I think Mia asks a fair question because if you go to church and you're always sowing seeds of doubt, you're always, you know, in your heart and your intent is to cause people to doubt and to question and to leave, then I think that might be unethical and it might be, you know, harmful to people.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:31] Is not what we're talking about today.

John Dehlin [01:09:33] I don't think it is. I think, I think if you. I think there's a way to be a liberal or progressive believer and to attend church, to be respectful of other people's beliefs, but to be a leavening influence. Even Christ talked about leaven in the bread. A bread is certainly not made all of yeast, but there's a little bit of yeast in bread that helps it rise and stay healthy. I would argue that a church, even Christ taught the body of Christ needs the feet, it needs the hands, it needs the arms, it needs the head, it needs all the different parts of the body.

John Dehlin [01:10:08] And I would guess that a church is going to be healthier with different points of view, even progressive points of view. And so you don't necessarily have to feel like you tactfully and respectfully sharing alternative points of view or even liberal or progressive ones are harmful. I think it can make a church environment more healthy. I know my cousin Greta and Wendy Montgomery has talked about this. They explicitly go to church to prevent harm that could be done. So when someone says something racist or sexist or homophobic, they're actually there to neutralize that message, to blunt it, to show love and concern for the youth that may have heard that message.

John Dehlin [01:10:55] And in some ways you can be saving souls. So I think a lot of it has to do with what's in your heart. If you're there to help make a difference, to not be disruptive, you can be affirming of Orthodoxy, but still lovingly and gently engage in a way that minimizes the harm and that maximizes the good that the church can do in people's lives, I say that's okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:11:16] And I think intention, you really hit it really well with intention there. And the only other thing I can say is there's so much good still in. I was able to teach lessons I really, really connected to in young women through topic. There was plenty I connected to and I stand by even now those things that I stood up and shared, personal stories, stories about poetry, songs.

Margi Dehlin [01:11:46] So what I'd say to you is the way I think about that is I resonated with certain things that I felt comfortable sharing. I also felt like on some level I did try to offer choices. If I felt like a perspective was particularly limiting, say to in young women's. If I felt like there should have been a little more choice in that it's not just about you get educated to stay home or some of those messages. And I felt like actually that was. I didn't erase that message, but I added to that message. I built on it. And I figured the lessons that I was, I did not resonate with temples or believe me, that'll be covered by other people, you know, plenty.

Margi Dehlin [01:12:32] So those subjects that we ended up sort of bowing out of or didn't feel were in line with our integrity of the moment were tend to be topics that are very well covered in church culture.

John Dehlin [01:12:46] Susan writes, this is therapeutic. Again, thank you very much. Ezra corrects me, it was Paul that talked about the body of Christ, not Christ. My mistake. Ezra. Although whether it be by the mouth of Christ or his servants, is it the same? No, I'm just kidding. Thanks for the correction, Ezra. Andy agrees that it's important to be respectful to orthodox beliefs and so forth. Okay. This has been a really powerful discussion, Margi. We have over 120 people listening right now. It's rare that we have that many people tuned in. So shout out to all the thoughtful faith community members to the, you know, believing and non believing Mormons out there that are tuning in.

John Dehlin [01:13:34] I think that's really awesome. Okay, so we've talked about being a buffet Mormon. Let's talk about some of the other coping mechanisms that are essential for. For staying in the church as a non believer. So you want to do one. What is the one you want to do right now?

Spiritual Supplements and Outside Practices

Margi Dehlin [01:13:56] Oh, I was curious. Are we going to head into considerations or not?

John Dehlin [01:13:59] We are. I just want to do a couple more mindset things.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:01] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:14:02] Is that okay?

Margi Dehlin [01:14:02] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:14:03] Okay. One of them was supplementing your spirituality. So oftentimes later on in our attempt at doing this, we didn't get the spiritual nourishment that we used to. Because sometimes church can be stressful or even toxic. If you attend and you hear things that aren't true, sometimes you have to stay silent in Sunday school or priesthood or Relief Society. And it feels yucky to be staying silent while awful things are said. And sometimes it's just not spiritually nurturing. So talk about spiritual supplementation. Margi.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:36] I think this is so fun. This is like. I don't know, it just. I feel like it added to my journey just a hundredfold. Once I allowed myself to open up a little bit to what connected with me, what made me feel inspired to grow or see something in a different way. I have read so many books through this idea of supplementing, and not just on Sunday. I mean, supplement your spirituality every day of the week. You know, every. So yoga came into my life this way. Reading parenting books, learning about Buddhism came into my life this way.

John Dehlin [01:15:21] Remember A New Earth? You want to talk about that?

Margi Dehlin [01:15:23] This is how I remember second hour in Seattle. I read A New Earth for the first time.

John Dehlin [01:15:30] And at that point by Eckhart Tolle. T O L L E. The book is A New Earth. He also wrote the Power of Now. And it became. When our spirituality was gutted, it replaced that with a new secular form of spirituality that was super powerful. So keep going.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:46] Also very. It's a great companion. You can use it. Being active in the church as well as. As not. It's. It's quite flexible. I would say, for me, it was huge to do it with the open program. I hope that's still available.

John Dehlin [01:16:02] So if you Google Eckhart Tolle, a new Oprah. What Oprah does is she interviews Eckhart tolle for like 8 or 10.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:11] It's chapter.

John Dehlin [01:16:13] So chapter by chapter, she with Eckhart Tolle. And then a panel of guests discuss each chapter of the book. And the book is called A New Earth, and it's basically secular Buddhism. You could listen to Noah Rochetta Secular

Margi Dehlin [01:16:24] Buddhism podcast, which is also a great supplement.

John Dehlin [01:16:27] Yeah, Buddhism is a fantastic spiritual supplement as well.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:31] Right. So anyway, that became something that was so enriching and so empowering at the time. And what I loved about the Oprah part of it was it made it practical because sometimes it was just a little bit. It felt, I don't know, removed. And when you had people ask questions or kind of call them with really everyday situations, it Just helped a lot to kind of see it break down into everyday life a bit.

John Dehlin [01:17:00] Do you remember some of the teachings of A New Earth that really resonated with you?

Margi Dehlin [01:17:05] I think the notion of reactivity came to me through A New Earth. The idea of when we're hurt, this idea of pain body, that we start reacting from a place where we're not thinking. This is also fight or flight. Like there are a lot of different names. But the way he talked about it, the way he spoke of it as like an energy you feel it just connected with me. I do think it's something that when you're in that mindset, everyone can feel it. Everyone can feel the agitation they can feel. So that's one concept that I remember.

John Dehlin [01:17:35] And then just acceptance. Remember you talked about what you resist, persists, what you fight, you strengthen. And that's a core teaching of Buddhism, that attachment. He calls it ego or pain body. But attachment in Buddhism is suffering, meaning expecting a certain outcome, expecting things to be a certain way, being disappointed when things didn't turn out like you expected.

John Dehlin [01:17:58] He talked about acceptance being the way of power that if you can just say things are as they are. Focus in the present moment, don't get stuck in the past, don't worry about the future. Live in the moment. And as you live in the moment, accept what happens in the moment.

John Dehlin [01:18:14] Actually quite freeing versus being angry about things not mattering and happening the way you want. And then reacting through pain body, through these emotional reactions that then causes all sorts of suffering for you and for everyone else. So anyway, a new Earth. Eckhart Tolle Secular Buddhism Lots of different ways to supplement nature walks.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:36] Nature walks started going in there. Meals, meals together, TED talks. Boy, there was. There's just been so. So much movies, watching certain movies that. So, you know, find your. Find your bliss, find what you connect to, what inspires you. And then, you know, make, make space for it. Oh, meditation, if you have sort of an anxiety component to you or restlessness to your life, a simple guided meditation, a really great way to supplement so. And it goes very well with, you know, actively participating in church.

John Dehlin [01:19:18] Catherine writes journaling is an important spiritual practice for her. I think that's a great one. Brian writes an Eckhart Tolle quote. Accept the situation, speak your mind or leave. All else is madness. Let's read that again. Read that one time.

Margi Dehlin [01:19:36] Margi, you want me to accept the situation, Speak your mind or leave. All else is madness.

John Dehlin [01:19:46] Graham writes, love a New Earth. It really helped add a positive perspective during a difficult Time Vicki asks if this is live. Yes, Vicki, this is live. All right. So that's. That is sort of supplementing spirituality. I love the comments and questions. Please keep them coming. Okay, now we are going to jump to the phase of practical considerations and common concerns. So we have talked about mindset. Now let's talk about practical concerns. The first one I wrote, and again, this is coming from Stalebs.com, the How to Stay in the Church After a Crisis of Faith document that I created back in 2007 with Brian Johnston. It's a great, great manual to help you stay in the church if you no longer believe. Be really careful what you tell others. That's the first piece of advice, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:36] So crucial.

John Dehlin [01:20:37] Why?

Margi Dehlin [01:20:39] Because I think. Here's the thing. I would go back to the authority sort of paradigm that we buy into at the early kind of stages of this process. But then I found kind of. It morphed as we went, is it can be difficult to read. I think once you divulge or give information, you no longer have control over what is done with it.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:11] And that is a tricky situation to be in. And that's why I think knowing yourself and being really clear on your intention. So we were always really mindful. Before I would go in to meet, I always, like, got in touch with myself, got in touch with how I wanted to convey what I wanted them to have, what I could trust them with and what I couldn't, and what I knew about them and what I didn't know. And from there, I would compose sort of a conversation. And if needed, I would make boundaries around the things that I didn't want to. I didn't want to tell.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:51] So that's what I would say. And a boundary looks like. Can look at, like, a lot of different things, but a boundary in many of those conversations for me would be repeating the same thing over and over again. Like deciding a place that I would go about. Let's say it's.

John Dehlin [01:22:10] Let's practice. I'm the bishop.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:12] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:22:12] Would you like to be. Hey, Margi, I have a calling for you. Would you like to be seminary teacher?

Margi Dehlin [01:22:18] Oh, I'm so grateful that you would think of me in kind of serving in this way. And boy, I sure love the youth. So that is just such a great something that I connect with. I worry at this time, for me, though, that the time commitment is simply not something that will work with our family and our family's needs right now. So as much as I want to accept, as much as there's Part of me that would really love that, I am gonna have to say no. And that would be if I really was disinterested.

John Dehlin [01:22:56] Let me follow up together.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:57] Because I would say a different way if I was open to sharing it

John Dehlin [01:23:00] or since we're talking about limiting the information, let's say. I say, well, what's wrong with your family?

Margi Dehlin [01:23:05] Yeah, my family's just not in a position where I can give that amount of time, unfortunately.

John Dehlin [01:23:10] So are there people, testimony, problems in your family? Are you doubting the gospel and the truthfulness of the church?

Margi Dehlin [01:23:19] No, it's more that my family's just in a place right now where I just can't give that amount of time and energy, where I'm just not in a place where I can do it. But thank you for thinking of me.

John Dehlin [01:23:28] What I'm trying to get at is sometimes they're awful of boundaries, and they want to drill and ask more and more questions.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:34] They'll be even more. Oftentimes the questions are.

John Dehlin [01:23:37] So let's. Let's practice, actually. You be a persistent. You be a persistent bishop. Okay. Just try. Call me as a. So let's say you call me as. Extend a call to me as word mission leader real quick.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:49] Okay. All right. I. We've been thinking about you, John, and your name came out as someone who would be perfect for this calling of ward mission level. What do you say to that?

John Dehlin [01:24:02] So I really appreciate that call right now. There are some things that my family's kind of working through. Everything's fine, but it's just not a good time for my family right now for me to take that call.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:14] Oh, are there issues that we need to be aware of?

John Dehlin [01:24:16] No, everything's fine. It's just not a good time for us.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:19] We would really love. You know, this is why we exist, John, is to really reach out and help you people in a time of need. But in order to do that, that's something that, like, we need to be made aware of so that we actually can play that role.

John Dehlin [01:24:34] No, I totally appreciate that, Bishop. It's just not a good time for us right now. But everything's fine. There's no problems. There's just some stuff, you know, that makes it just not a good time for us right now. So that's what I was gonna say. Feel fine saying no and not giving information. I was gonna just say, don't give them rope to hang you.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:55] Oh, yeah, there you go.

John Dehlin [01:24:56] Right. Don't give them the rope to hang you. Okay, a second point is setting boundaries. We talked about that already. Right. So not letting them interview your kid with you, not being there saying no to things, feeling comfortable saying no to callings. I think we've covered setting boundaries.

Margi Dehlin [01:25:16] And really, the idea of setting boundaries, this is an act of connection. Because what happens is if you're in relationship with an organization or people who are constantly making you feel uncomfortable. Right. Breaking boundaries or making you feel uncomfortable, you start to resent them. You start to have a negative emotional response to them. And so a lot of people are really uncomfortable with this concept because it kind of is foreign to this obedience culture that we have. But look at it as setting boundaries as your best friend. It is your new best friend, and it is there to keep this relationship working for you and healthy.

Margi Dehlin [01:25:58] So one thing that's a little bit different, and I'll say I had this some in our ward when John, at different times would stop attending. And I would have people in the ward come over and ask me repeatedly where he was. So where's John? Where has he been? We haven't seen him. Where is he? You know? Yeah, but is he sick? Is he. And I did the same thing that I just kind of tried to mirror with John. Whereas I would pick a response, he couldn't make it today, you know, but he sure misses y'. All. Or if that actually wasn't the case, I wouldn't say it, but I would say, he couldn't make it today.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:32] And then they'd be. See, they'd say, is he sick? Or where's he been? Or, it's been such a long time. Yeah, he couldn't make it today. And by the third time of me saying the same response, people get it. People understand.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:44] And at that point, I knew the questions weren't really about, like, how is John doing? I really want to connect. It wasn't safe. It wasn't particularly. And so that's when a boundary really is perfect.

John Dehlin [01:26:57] Yes. Jerry says yes to boundaries. Jill makes a good point. She says there's difference between being kindly assertive and aggressive in some setting. Boundaries. And I think she's saying you can be kindly assertive without being offensive. Right?

Margi Dehlin [01:27:13] Yeah. I love the idea of thanking people for the callings. Thank you for thinking of me even at the end. I try that with every interaction, even in asking about John, like, thank you for asking or whatever. Like, try and keep it light, keep the connection, you know, do your part. If that's something that you're valuing to keep it open and positive.

John Dehlin [01:27:35] Ezra and Kimberly are nominating Margi for bishop and Kimberly says, I can be young women's president if they'd want me, I guess. I know Jerry says, thanks for thinking. I'll give you an example of a response. Thanks for thinking of me, but I'm not interested. It's more time than I'm willing to give. That's an interesting approach. Melissa writes, it's hard not to say it's none of your damn business. Yeah, you sometimes do want to say

Margi Dehlin [01:28:04] that, especially as you go. I think some of these things can be wearing.

John Dehlin [01:28:09] Yeah. All right, so let's continue with a couple more practical considerations. One of the questions in this document is, can you be honest and ethical and stay? And I think that's a really important question. And I say the answer is sometimes. So for me, I got to the point where I couldn't, but there were many, many years where I felt like I could. And it's really a personal thing.

John Dehlin [01:28:40] You can be honest without being confrontational. And that's what this essay talks about. So, number one, you don't have to tell everyone everything you think or feel. I don't think honesty means that if a terrorist is running around a movie theater threatening to shoot anyone who loves gay people, that you have to raise your hand and say, I love gay people. Shoot me. It's none of his business. And he doesn't get to decide what you do or don't talk about. And you're allowed, most importantly, to navigate your own safety. And so, first of all, I don't think honesty means telling everything you think or feel.

John Dehlin [01:29:15] And then secondly, I think in terms of honesty, you know, don't give people rope to hang you, and you can be diplomatic when you're talking about things and you can learn a language. And I had to do this as a believing Mormon, where I would focus on commonalities. I would focus on, let's say I didn't believe in the literal resurrection or that Christ was a historical figure, but I still believed in Christ's teachings. And I was being asked to testify of Christ. I could bear testimony to the fact that I believed in Christ's teachings of charity without having to go into the resurrection and the historicity of Jesus. So you can definitely be honest without being confrontational. What would you say?

Margi Dehlin [01:30:00] I agree. I feel like largely we were able to do this. It may have gotten a bit more complicated, but that was from our own sort of circumstances that were really unique. But I felt pretty comfortable and empowered and not particularly labeled at the end, in spite of the fact that we were attending less than normal didn't hold callings.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:30] I still felt reasonably comfortable going with our kids. It just changed. It wasn't so much our social outlet. It wasn't a place where I was really looking for the feeling of inclusivity or belonging. It changed and morphed a bit. But by and large, from my experience, I feel like I was able to do it. And what I looked. This is the way I looked at it. The things that I with the buffet, the things that I really loved, I looked at it like I'm voting. So I put my energy toward things that I resonated with and that was my vote. And the things that I didn't, I either didn't believe or didn't agree or didn't.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:16] If there was a lesson on that or if there was, I just wouldn't go. And it was a really empowering way for me to have this interactive experience. And the voting helped break it down for me. Because I can't change history. I can't change the fact that certain things happened that maybe I wish hadn't. But if the lesson is coming up and it is agitating for me and I don't really love it, I don't have to go. I get to choose to read a chapter out of a book instead. And that was something that made me feel like I could maintain some of my integrity along with the practices. Really choosing those practices, that meant something to me and I connected with them. Not good.

Protecting Loved Ones and Practical Tips for Staying

John Dehlin [01:31:58] We talked about on the idea of protecting yourself and your loved ones. We talked about not allowing youth or children to be alone with leaders. Any other ways that we work to protect our loved ones that you can think of?

Margi Dehlin [01:32:14] I feel like when they went on trips or with Girls camp or that was something we were always kind of aware of Scouts. We were always aware of trying to have John be around. These were things that we felt.

John Dehlin [01:32:30] You try and go to Girls Camp, I would try and go to scouting activities. We would make sure they had the too deep leadership. We wouldn't send our kids to a meeting that had only one male leader or even one female leader.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:41] Sometimes, yep, those are. Some things come to mind.

John Dehlin [01:32:45] But definitely make sure and protect yourself and your loved ones.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:48] The other way you protect your loved ones, honestly is this idea of the talk and discussion after church because that allows for them to have a space of processing of saying, oh, this really kind of hurt me when I heard it or I disagree with this or I. And in the end, that really does serve as a protection for them to be able to connect with themselves through the process is the ultimate protection.

John Dehlin [01:33:14] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:14] It is the ultimate goal. And so I really recommend that. It's really a beautiful thing. And it really does teach your family that it's okay to have different opinions. And a different opinion won't get you ousted from our family or from our kitchen table. And you can really model that unconditional love. It's a beautiful thing.

John Dehlin [01:33:35] We sat our kids down and literally said, we're going to go to church. But we don't believe everything that is taught at church. And there are things that church teaches that we do not believe. You do not have to believe anything that you don't believe. You don't ever have to say anything, say that you believe anything you don't believe. You can disagree sometimes, you know, be thoughtful about whether you do that openly, but.

John Dehlin [01:34:01] And we don't think our leaders are perfect. We don't think Joseph Smith was perfect. We think the Scriptures are flawed. And. And anytime you don't like something or don't believe something or hear something that's troubling, first look inside your heart. Make sure you only agree with it or believe it if it feels right to you. If it's something that's troubling, we want you to come home immediately and tell us what you heard that you didn't like. And basically, it got to the point where every Sunday dinner was this deprogramming session where the kids would say, well, here's some things I liked, but here's some things I didn't like or that were troubling or that I didn't believe. And we would be very affirming and supportive in them rejecting any teaching or any doctrine or behavioral practice that they didn't feel comfortable.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:48] And also modeling this idea of respect, offering respect, and even more than respect, love and compassion at our table. Because oftentimes our kids would disagree. They would have different views on something that happened. And it's just a very. It's a great skill to be able to learn how to communicate yourself, communicate for yourself, but also being able to respond and have these conversations around differences. Centered, though. And what is it? Grounded in love.

John Dehlin [01:35:25] Yeah. Tammy King says she loves you. Your old. Your old friend Tammy King tunes in. Okay, so definitely protect your children and deprogram as necessary. All right. A couple other suggestions in this document. Think of church as a place to serve, not as a place to be served. That can be a framework that works for many people. There's this idea of building and spending credit in your ward. Obviously, you don't want to Be the guy that's always dissenting, that always is bringing up difficult topics. That's always sowing seeds of disbelief.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:36:04] That's just not enriching and always disagreeing and being that guy that always has to speak up. Having said that, what you can do is build credibility and credit in your ward. Social credit through being kind, through serving, through having real genuine friendships and relationships with people in your award. And then you can use and spend that capital thoughtfully. Let's say there's a moment where someone says something homophobic or someone says something about Joseph Smith that's not true. You can spend some of that credit disagreeing or correcting or saying your point of view. You can do that without destroying your reputation in the ward. Sometimes it's just a matter of building up credit and then spending that credit card carefully. So that's a topic in this essay that some have found value with. Did you ever thought about that?

Margi Dehlin [01:36:56] Yes. I was just gonna say in situations like that, it's. It definitely. I think credit helps. I also feel like energy helps.

John Dehlin [01:37:04] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:05] How you express that is the difference between like all of a sudden everything being derailed and then there's this argument where everyone's just feeling deeply uncomfortable, comfortable. So if you choose to go that route in, let's say, a Sunday school setting, just know kind of what you're up against a little bit that way. And it should be made like, as an offering, as an observation in humility, in love. And I also love the idea of one on one. I mean, why. Why go after someone in a perspective, in a. Versus, like, you know, something afterwards where you're saying, hey, let me meet you on that comment because I found it really interesting and I'm curious what you would say about. And you can kind of through one on one, decide if there's enough leeway or room for any type of insight or connection.

John Dehlin [01:37:55] You know, Love it. Derry writes, I have been a Buffet Mormon for years, Asked bishops if callings were called out of inspiration or desperation. Felt no guilt, felt for making my own choices and still being involved. It works for me. And I feel I am a better human by being involved on my own way.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:15] Makes sense. And bravo.

John Dehlin [01:38:17] Nice job, Dari. I'm glad that works for you. Jerry writes, making people uncomfortable at church is not cool. It's not cool for them and it's not cool for you. It's just yucky to always feel that

Margi Dehlin [01:38:27] it doesn't work for anyone.

John Dehlin [01:38:28] Yeah. Cal writes, john and Margi, would you deprogram your kids for public from the public education system. Yes, absolutely. And we do.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:40] And Cal wrote the same question. All right. Vicki writes, please, please don't allow your children to be alone with leaders. I think there's probably wisdom there. The last main topic we're going to cover for today, and then it's time to wrap up, is the temple recommend.

John Dehlin [01:38:56] Again, we mentioned a lot of people just don't have a temple recommend and are comfortable not having it. Other people just, just ask, answer the questions in the temple recommend. However, we'll get them a recommend because they, they just want to get it. And even maybe in their hearts or minds, they're not being totally honest, but they don't feel like it's a, an ethical system to keep people from their children's marriages or to ostracize or shame them.

John Dehlin [01:39:27] And so they just feel comfortable not necessarily being completely truthful at the temple recommend. What we tried to write in this document, how to stay in the church after a crisis of your faith, is give a framework for ethically navigating the temple recommend questions in a way that gets you a recommend, but that isn't dishonest. And I'll just briefly kind of describe what that is. The main idea is that, number one, the questions are generally vague. Joseph Smith never comes up in any of the questions, so you don't have to bear testimony about him. They ask about the restoration, but they don't really define it.

John Dehlin [01:40:05] They use the term prophet, but they don't really define it. In other words, if you read the actual language of the temple recommend questions, you could argue that they're very broad and kind of general and almost vague. And I would argue, intentionally so. The second thing is they allow you to be the final judge as to whether or not you're worthy.

John Dehlin [01:40:29] And another really important factor is that they do not allow bishops or stake presidents to add to the questions. You can literally get in trouble as a bishop or stake president if you add to the questions. So when you take those things all together, the questions are vague and general.

John Dehlin [01:40:47] You're allowed to be your own judge, and bishops and stake presidents aren't allowed to add to it. Then you can work within that framework of just saying, well, it's asking me if I pay a full tithe, how do I define tithing? Am I comfortable saying that I pay tithing in a way that makes me feel good between myself and God? If there's a God, yes. Word of wisdom. Do I live? Do I feel like I live the spirit of the word of wisdom? Do I feel Good about my interpretation of it. If I do, I'm an answer in the way that I want to and just kind of go with it.

John Dehlin [01:41:22] And you can do that about the Godhead, you can do that about Christ, you can do that about the restoration, you can do that about most of those questions. I've even heard people say, you know, when asked, are you honest in your dealings with your fellow men? They're like, no, I'm not always honest in my dealings with my fellow men. And bishops and stake presidents say, well, neither are we. We're all doing our best.

John Dehlin [01:41:41] And so at the end of the day, that notion of don't give them rope to hang you, you're your own judge, don't give power knowing that there's ecclesiastical roulette, don't give your power to other people. I think there's a way to ethically and morally answer all the questions in the way that you need to to get the recommend without feeling any guilt or shame about it.

John Dehlin [01:42:05] Two other things I'd add. Sometimes people decide to go into these multi hour discussions with their bishop or stake president where they have to define what they mean by Jesus, what they do and don't believe about Jesus, what they do and don't believe about God. Is it anthropomorphic? Is it not what I do and don't believe about the Scriptures? And I think that's a totally reasonable and ethical thing to do. It takes a lot of time and patience and energy. And you do risk ultimately giving them rope to hang you and being denied. I don't think that's wrong. If that's what your morals and ethics tell you needs to happen, go for it.

John Dehlin [01:42:43] And then the only final thing that I'll say about this approach to the temple recommend issue is mileage may vary. There were years where I was comfortable doing this and then there were years where I felt like it was unethical and dishonest and immoral and I had to stop doing it. But reasonable people take this approach and get temple recommends and feel completely fine doing it. Any thoughts on that?

Margi Dehlin [01:43:11] I think you covered it brilliantly.

John Dehlin [01:43:12] Okay. All right. Well, we are towards the end of the episode. We've still got 111 people hanging on. And so. So again, we want to recommend this article to people. How to stay in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints after a major challenge to your faith. It's@stalets.com we think it can be really helpful. It's also got a bunch of links to resources on how to stay that are really helpful to people. It's got a lot more detail. Again, I was the original author of it and then Brian Johnston added and edited things and, and I think we've covered the main things. Is there anything else you want to say? And I'll just open it up to listeners. Any more questions or comments you want to post or ask before we end. Margi, I'll give you some final thoughts while I look for final questions, final

Closing Thoughts and Encouragement for the Journey

Margi Dehlin [01:44:08] thoughts only, that we support you. And I think, boy, there are just many, many ways to try and navigate this journey, journey that we're on. And we're all in it together, trying to do the best we can. And we, we support you. And we know that, you know, there are challenges on your path just like there are challenges on ours. And we offer you our just love and support as you navigate your, your own path and journey.

John Dehlin [01:44:42] So beautiful. And I'll just say I want to challenge post Mormons and ex Mormons to stretch themselves to be less judgmental and critical of those who decide to stay and who try to make it work. You know, you don't, you don't. You haven't walked a mile in their moccasins. You don't know what their reasons are.

John Dehlin [01:45:09] You don't know to what extent they may need it or what. And it's just how Mormon is it for ex Mormons and post Mormons to become just as fundamentalist and just as judgmental and intolerant of other people as we sort of criticize the church and orthodox members for being? And so I find myself many times when I'm seeing the damage that's done by the church, when I'm seeing people harmed, wanting to say, anyone who stays in the church is complicit in the harm and they're harming people and they're unethical and they're lying and they all just need to get out. And I just want to stretch all of you to stop that and to not be that.

John Dehlin [01:45:54] And you myself. Yeah, and you, Margi, and me. And you and me not be that person that thinks that everyone has to follow what I do. Everyone has to see the world the way I do. I'll never forget again my cousin Greta and Wendy Montgomery, when I said anyone who stays in the church is complicit in the harm, they're basically saying, stop it, John. We're staying in the church to help make it safe. We're staying in the church to make it better. Quit criticizing us. You don't understand at all. We're Saving lives by staying in. And can any of us really judge that?

John Dehlin [01:46:32] Or even if they stay because it's best for them or stay because it's their spiritual home or it's their tribe or it's what they want or need. Margi, can we judge these people?

Margi Dehlin [01:46:44] I ask you, I ask you, what should we be doing?

John Dehlin [01:46:49] Yeah. So that's a call to ex Mormons and post Mormons to not become the monster that we ran from.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:56] I agree. And the judging, I feel like we come by it honestly because it is sort of part of our, it's part of our makeup culturally, I think religiously for sure. But I just really love the idea of, you know, let's look at ourselves more, what works for us more, and then allow people the space and support and compatibility to do the same for them and just trust that everyone is doing the best they can and just get out of the judge overall because it tends to not build bridges ever.

John Dehlin [01:47:33] Yeah, Amen. Kelly writes, exactly. Melissa gives three three thumbs up, not just one or two. Robin says, thanks for this perspective. It's refreshing. Kelly writes, it's not our job to judge. Catherine writes, estoy de e cuerdo. That's Spanish.

John Dehlin [01:47:54] Jessica writes, live and let live. Bob writes, great all around advice, guys. I thoroughly love this discussion. Love you guys. Robin writes, thanks for this perspective. It's refreshing. David writes, absolutely true. Respect goes both ways. Catherine writes, too oftentimes ex Mormons and post Mormons are trading one set of dogma for another. And that's the truth. I just posted a link to the PDF of the how to Stay document in the in the comments on Facebook. I'll ask Cody and Amy to make sure and include those in our show notes.

John Dehlin [01:48:30] I just want to conclude by thanking everyone for joining us today. We still have over 100 people listening. We've loved having you. I want to remind everyone to please check out mormonstories.org events if you want to attend any of the upcoming events. They're life changing.

John Dehlin [01:48:47] I want to thank everyone who donates to Mormon Stories, Mormon Transitions, the Open Stories foundation, all our different podcasts. Your donations make this possible. If you do donate. Thank you. If you don't donate, please consider going up now and becoming a monthly donor. $10 a month, $25 a month can really keep our foundation alive and we use it to support the mission of the foundation. And don't be a free rider. Please support us. We are transparent in our finances. We always have been.

John Dehlin [01:49:17] And all the money goes to support the mission. I want to thank Cody Layton and Amy Grubbs. We could not operate the Open Stories foundation without them. They make this all possible. They're brilliant and amazing. I want to thank the Open Stories foundation board, Roger McComber, Lee Stowell, Craig Woodfield and Steve Holbrook. I want to thank Margi for coming on this podcast.

Margi Dehlin [01:49:40] I thank you back. Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:49:42] You're brilliant and amazing. And I want to thank all of our listeners on Facebook who comment and ask questions, everyone who does so on the blog. Please make sure and join us on the blog@mormonstories.org if you have other questions or comments. We really appreciate that there. If you want to come on Mormon Stories or Mormon Transitions, we'd love to write in@mormonstoriesmail.com and let us know. We would love to have you if you have ideas of topics that you want us to cover. If you have constructive criticism, we love constructive criticism. And so please send it if you have any questions. And if you have any questions for our board of directors, email openstoriesboardmail.com or

Margi Dehlin [01:50:22] if there are things you want to see more of, less of anything, please share it. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:50:27] All right everyone. We sure love you, we sure appreciate having you. And we'll be tuning in again next week for more on this series of staying in the church as an active, maybe non believing or semi believing member. So thanks for joining us everybody. Stay tuned. Thanks for being with us. Thanks to Margi again and take care. We'll see you guys on the flip side soon. Love you guys.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.