Katherine Bernard (KB) Olsen is a never-mo (never Mormon) — but also one of the most devoted fans of Mormon Stories Podcast. A queer, secular journalist with deep Jewish roots and a high-fashion pedigree, Katherine has spent over 20 years captivated by the LDS Church — despite never being religious herself. In her first-ever full-length interview about her life story, she opens up about her lifelong curiosity with Mormonism, identity, belief, and American culture.
KB’s impressive journalism career includes work at Vogue, New York Times, and other top-tier New York publications. After moving from Maryland to attend NYU for Journalism, she found herself drawn not only to art and culture — but also to spirituality, history, and the paradoxes of organized religion. Over the years, her interest in Mormonism became a deep and serious intellectual pursuit.
What You’ll Hear in This Interview:
-Her upbringing in a secular household in Maryland
-Her exploration of Jewish identity and eventual conversion
-Her first exposure to Mormonism through South Park, Big Love, and The Book of Mormon musical
-Her emotional journey coming out as gay in a non-supportive environment
-Her reflections on shame, logic, identity, and community
-Her nuanced take on Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, and Mormon reality TV
-Her insights into conditioning, religious extremism, and spiritual seeking
This episode is a masterclass in curiosity — how someone with no personal ties to the LDS Church became one of its most thoughtful outside observers. KB explores Mormonism not as a critic or a believer, but as a seeker with a journalist’s eye.
Episode Transcript
Host: John Dehlin · Co-host: Margi Dehlin · Guest: KB Olsen
This transcript is machine-generated and lightly edited for readability. The audio is authoritative. Please excuse occasional errors in names and spelling.
Introducing KB Olsen and the Never-Mormon Perspective
John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It's April 23, 2025, and Margi and I are super stoked for today's interview. Is that right, Margi?
Margi Dehlin [00:00:11] Absolutely.
John Dehlin [00:00:12] As many of you know, we at Mormon Stories Podcast, bizarrely, over half of our viewers and listeners have never been Mormon. So we've been trying to feature Never Mormons on Mormon Stories podcast. We want to do more, so apply if you are a Never Mormon and want to be on the show. But today, in her own words, we possibly have the neverest nevermo that we've ever had on Mormon Stories. Is that right, kb?
KB Olsen [00:00:36] I think so. And I carry that mantle very proudly.
John Dehlin [00:00:41] KB is a freelance journalist and a screenwriter. She lives in New York City. Ish. She has written for the New York Times. She's written for Vogue magazine. She currently writes for Elle Decor. And she is freakishly, as she might say, into Mormons, as awkward as that might sound. Is that, did I, did I go too far?
KB Olsen [00:01:04] We haven't figured out how else to say it, but hopefully over the course of this conversation, we can have an identity for us. Never Mormons who need a life.
John Dehlin [00:01:14] But yeah, but she's never really been, not only never been Mormon, never been married to a Mormon, she has no Mormon kids, no Mormon extended family or in laws, never lived in Utah, and has never been really a member of a high demand religion. So why would this fascinating, thoughtful human be like a Mormon Stories superfan? And I don't want to like overstate that. Like, is that.
KB Olsen [00:01:42] No, I'm like enthralled just hearing you say like, this is John De Lune. Welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories.
John Dehlin [00:01:47] I'm like, ah, so yeah, so we're just going to hear KB's story and then we're going to hear what about her background maybe led her to be interested in Mormonism and then kind of her journey learning about Mormonism. And as I just like to always note, some of my favorite Mormon Stories podcast episodes are like with Michael Ko, the late Yale anthropologist who's really into the Book of Mormon, or Robert Rittner, the late Egyptologist who's really into the Book of Abraham. I love to hear outsiders views of Mormonism, Mormon history, Mormon truth claims, et cetera. So Margi and I today, it's just geeking out fun with someone who may care more about Mormonism than us. So welcome, welcome to Mormon Stories. Kb.
KB Olsen [00:02:37] Thank you, John and Margi, I'm so honored to be here.
John Dehlin [00:02:41] Anything you Want to add, edit, or delete from the intro?
KB Olsen [00:02:45] No, that sounds about right.
John Dehlin [00:02:47] Okay, tell us really quickly. Anything. I know I just asked this, but, like, anything else you want to say about what you do or your life just today, just so people can get a sense for who you are?
KB Olsen [00:03:01] Sure. As you said, I live in New York. I moved to New York City when I was 17 to go to NYU. So all of my adulthood was in New York City. I'm a lesbian. I'm married. And, yeah, I'm just fascinated by all kinds of narratives about, I guess, the ways that we process the context to which we are born. All kinds of, you know, waking up narratives. Even if it's waking up to, like, your personal style and fashion or, you know, what kind of things you want in your home. So much of these, like, aesthetic cues are about your personal identity. Who am I? Like, what does this mean? So there's a thread of connection, but otherwise.
Margi Dehlin [00:03:53] Yeah.
KB Olsen [00:03:53] My interest in Mormons has been two decades. It's freakish. We'll find out what the people think. Maybe I'll make some friends who share this proclivity.
John Dehlin [00:04:05] And she's auditioning to be a regular panelist on Mormon stories.
KB Olsen [00:04:08] Yeah. So shout me out, hype me up. We're gonna make this a fun one. Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:04:15] Really quickly. So Elle Decor is, like. Is that a branch of Elle magazine? Is.
KB Olsen [00:04:20] I guess so. It's their, like, interior magazine. So I've just finished my, like, second assignment for them.
John Dehlin [00:04:27] But you write personal pieces, not about, like. Like. Like interior design, right?
KB Olsen [00:04:32] Oh, yeah. No, I write about interior design.
John Dehlin [00:04:35] Okay. Okay.
KB Olsen [00:04:36] That's one of my, you know, several clients. I've written about fashion. I've interviewed a lot of different artists and cultural figures, worked in advertising with all kinds of, you know, fascinating public figures selling who knows what. Yeah, so that's kind of.
Margi Dehlin [00:05:00] But this experience, then it sounds like you've. You've interviewed people. Have you been interviewed before yourself?
KB Olsen [00:05:07] I. Not that I can recall. You know, I've been interviewed for, like, what's in your closet? You know, but not nothing like this about my personal story whatsoever. No.
John Dehlin [00:05:18] So you're a fashion maven, Is that what you're saying?
KB Olsen [00:05:21] I think fashion for me was a portal into identity. You know, it's this, like, surface impression that you get of people. You can say a lot just in, like, these impressions. The way that we, like, hold our bodies and feel in our clothing. I mean. Yeah, let's just get into it, like, thinking about garments and, like, what significance that has for even how Mormon women especially end up feeling within their bodies in the world. Even your temperature, like all of that comes from fashion and clothing can be really controlling, liberating. So that's like how it kicked off.
John Dehlin [00:06:00] Interesting.
Margi Dehlin [00:06:01] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:06:01] So the interface between clothing and fashion and identity, design and identity.
KB Olsen [00:06:06] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:06:06] Ooh.
KB Olsen [00:06:07] Yeah, that's good stuff.
Margi Dehlin [00:06:09] It's really interesting.
Where KB's Mormon Fascination Began
John Dehlin [00:06:10] All right, well, I can't really say. Where did your Mormon story begin?
KB Olsen [00:06:13] It doesn't. So like here.
John Dehlin [00:06:16] And I can't ask about your pioneer ancestry.
KB Olsen [00:06:18] No. But I loved. I went to the Pioneer Memorial Museum in Salt Lake City for Never Mormons. That's this museum with a lot of incredible artifacts that Mormons have donated from their pioneer ancestors. But it's essentially just a massive multi floor archive of all of these artifacts and objects and like aprons and Joseph Smith's hair and they're all just in these cases and you just kind of endlessly look at all of these items and beautiful handcraft and anyway, so now I feel that I too am a pioneer.
John Dehlin [00:06:56] That's.
Margi Dehlin [00:06:57] That's what it took.
John Dehlin [00:06:59] Well, if you have Jewish, Jewish ancestry, then you kind of are like more, more, more of the chosen than even the Mormons.
KB Olsen [00:07:08] And it's widely known we made our way to America to kick off this whole shebang.
John Dehlin [00:07:15] So you might be more Mormon than we are, so.
KB Olsen [00:07:18] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:07:19] In fact, you're who the Book of Mormon was written for.
KB Olsen [00:07:21] 100%. It feels that way.
John Dehlin [00:07:23] Have you read it yet?
KB Olsen [00:07:24] I have.
John Dehlin [00:07:25] The whole thing?
KB Olsen [00:07:26] Not the whole thing, no. It's really dense.
John Dehlin [00:07:28] So there's a promise in Moroni 10 4.
KB Olsen [00:07:30] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:07:32] If you read it with a sincere heart, you can ask if it's true. Actually, you can ask if it's not true is what it says.
KB Olsen [00:07:39] Right.
John Dehlin [00:07:40] You haven't done that yet.
KB Olsen [00:07:41] Have I asked if it's true?
John Dehlin [00:07:42] Yeah,
KB Olsen [00:07:45] in my heart. I don't know. I'm still, you know, still considering. I've talked to some active LDs this week and it's been insightful, fascinating. Yeah. I can't say I think it's true, but.
John Dehlin [00:07:58] Well, you know, the spirit will do what the spirit will do.
KB Olsen [00:08:00] We'll see.
John Dehlin [00:08:02] So. Yeah. So let's talk about your upbringing. So where does your, where does your story begin?
KB Olsen [00:08:07] Yeah, well, first I want to say that, you know, I think a lot from the outsider perspective of what I can get, you know, through media has been packaged as entertainment. And I just want to acknowledge coming on as an outsider that, you know, this is people's entire belief system, their faith, such a core part of Identity, whether they're secular Mormon or not. And so, you know, I just want to be mindful that I, as much as so much of this is entertaining and I want us to have a laugh. You know, I mean no disrespect and if you listen to this and you feel that I don't know what I'm talking about, like, I don't. That's the gag. That's why we're here. So I don't know. And yeah, yeah.
John Dehlin [00:08:49] You're saying we're not your zoo, basically to. Yeah.
KB Olsen [00:08:52] Like it's not, you know, my, my fishbowl. I don't want to come across that way. It's just been a fascinating thread that's like illuminated a lot for me personally. And yeah, hopefully people will feel that there's so much intrinsic value in their journey and the things they share here.
John Dehlin [00:09:11] I think, I think Mormons are low key, narcissistic in the sense that they love to be talked about. So.
KB Olsen [00:09:16] Interesting.
John Dehlin [00:09:17] Yeah. The fact, I think even, even orthodox Mormons would be into somebody being into them.
KB Olsen [00:09:24] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:09:24] As long as they feel like they're being respected. Right.
KB Olsen [00:09:27] 100%. So that makes sense. I mean, the one true church. So.
John Dehlin [00:09:31] Well, the true Israelites, really the chosen people of God is who we think we are.
KB Olsen [00:09:36] Right. So it's worth a gander.
Margi Dehlin [00:09:40] So.
KB Olsen [00:09:40] Yeah. My story. I was born in Connecticut and moved to Maryland when I was 6. My mom was from there, originally from Baltimore, I have to say.
John Dehlin [00:09:54] Dave Portnoy says Connecticut has the best pizza in the world. Is that true? Do you know?
KB Olsen [00:10:00] I mean, sure, I've had it.
Margi Dehlin [00:10:01] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:10:01] You've been to New Haven?
KB Olsen [00:10:02] Yes, I was born in Yale. New Haven Hospital, actually.
John Dehlin [00:10:05] So have you had new. I guess you won't remember if you had pizzas.
KB Olsen [00:10:08] No, no, I've had the pizza. It's good. I prefer thin crust pizza, frankly.
John Dehlin [00:10:12] So did you know Karen Carpenter grew up in New Haven?
Margi Dehlin [00:10:16] Yeah.
KB Olsen [00:10:16] I mean, sadly she died from an eating disorder. So I don't know if she liked the pizza there. Sorry, that's so dark. That was like. We went from pizza to Karen Carpenter. So I just was like, oh my gosh. So yeah, I didn't have a religious upbringing. My parents were from two separate religions. My mother was raised Catholic and observe it, you know, she was, she received communion. I don't, I actually don't know that they were like going. Attending church regularly and not practicing in a way that I was observing her, you know, having any kind of relationship or regular attendance, no rituals or traditions. That you observed, you know, like Christmas rituals, Easter, but it's not like we were going to the stations of the Cross. Like it wasn't about Jesus from my perspective.
John Dehlin [00:11:16] Was she. Was she a professional, like. Or stay at home mom or.
KB Olsen [00:11:19] She was a stay at home mom.
John Dehlin [00:11:21] Okay.
KB Olsen [00:11:21] Yeah. So very traditional gender roles in that regard. And then my dad grew up secular
John Dehlin [00:11:31] Jewish, meaning like Reform or Reconstructionist or just.
KB Olsen [00:11:36] No, like very much assimilated Jews. My great grandfather, great great grandfather, his last name was Cohen actually, which is like the most Jewish name. And he changed his name to his middle name, which is Bernard, because of anti Semitism. He was in like the liquor import business or something in New York City.
KB Olsen [00:11:59] So there was definitely a lot of assimilation. And my dad grew up on the main line of Philadelphia, which is extremely WASPy. And you know, from my understanding, did not have like a wealth of Jewish connection, much less community, you know, wasn't. Didn't have a bar mitzvah, wasn't extremely knowledgeable. So we did, you know, Hanukkah. We would go to friends houses for Passover. He had some observant friends from college. So that was kind of where I saw practices of Judaism. But other than that, it was kind of just a left open to us belief system. I think my dad at one point said he was agnostic and we talked about that a bit.
KB Olsen [00:12:47] My mom still invokes, you know, some kind of God or like angels or, you know, when it, when it's pertinent to whatever sentiment she's trying to relay, you know, it's helpful metaphor, I guess, but that was it.
Jewish Ancestry and Family Background
John Dehlin [00:13:04] Can I ask about your dad for a second?
KB Olsen [00:13:05] Sure, of course.
John Dehlin [00:13:06] Have you been able to find out, number one, when in your father's ancestry line people kind of stopped being observant? And if so, why? Like, was it his parents, was it his grandparents? Was it his great grandparents or do you even know? That's question one.
KB Olsen [00:13:30] You know, I think I have theories. I think my grandparents grew up, you know, moderately Jewish. I would say so probably like their generation was. They started assimilating. I think World War II obviously had an impact. My Jewish, Jewish grandfather was in the Navy in World War II. But before that, the family, they'd already changed their name. You know, I think there was this desire to be American. And at the time that was not, you know, being Jewish or they didn't find that way to it.
John Dehlin [00:14:15] So is it. And I'm just. I could talk about this for a while. So forgive me, because this is. I love this. So does Changing your name away from Cohen to Bernard mean that they were hiding their Jewishness?
Margi Dehlin [00:14:31] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:14:31] And not wanting people to know.
KB Olsen [00:14:33] Yes. Correct.
John Dehlin [00:14:34] Wow. And that's just. I don't know, has that been intense for you? That would be intense for me.
KB Olsen [00:14:38] I think when I first learned it, that was part of something that sparked my curiosity because I was just like, well, what. What was this that you felt was so important to hide? And I always, you know, when you're patrilineally Jewish, which means your dad is Jewish, some people in more conservative parts of Judaism don't believe that you're actually.
John Dehlin [00:15:01] You're less legit if your mom's not Jewish.
KB Olsen [00:15:03] I was less legit, for sure.
John Dehlin [00:15:06] To me, that's gross. But I don't want to speak for your people. Right.
KB Olsen [00:15:09] You know, so I internalized that for a second, though. And I think, to me, I was like, well, my family was Jews for thousands of years. You know, they took a lot of intention to practice these rituals to preserve them. And I thought it was sort of sad that it was going to die out with my family because my dad married a Catholic woman. He has one brother. He married a woman who was patrilineally Jewish. So technically, none of my generation were Jewish, you know, in the full sense. And again, I don't actually. I don't actually believe this. I think if you're. If you're Jewish, you're Jewish.
KB Olsen [00:15:49] But at the time, I was impressionable. I was trying to understand, so it kind of felt like this tragedy. I didn't really understand why to my dad, that wasn't a big deal. And even as I started to get interested, it was, like, only just occurring to him. Like, okay, yeah, like, I guess that.
KB Olsen [00:16:06] So, yeah, it was. It was interesting. I didn't. I didn't really grow up Jewish. I didn't live in a Jewish home. I mean, so much of those practices are upheld by women in the family. Like, I. You know, I do understand how things like cooking and the rituals of Shabbat, like, there's a lot of value in the women's roles in Judaism. So not having a Jewish mom, you don't, like, connect to it, maybe in the same way. Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:16:38] Okay. A couple more questions. Thanks for being willing to let me go. So do you know, I'm assuming your Jewish ancestors come from Europe, Correct. Do you know what. Which country area?
KB Olsen [00:16:50] Yeah, they were from Bavaria. From Germany. Oh, yes.
John Dehlin [00:16:54] Okay, Cool, huh?
KB Olsen [00:16:56] And I think Austria as well.
John Dehlin [00:16:58] And do you know what, around what year the original ones came over?
KB Olsen [00:17:02] Actually, like, eight, 1830s. So around the time Mormonism got cooking.
Margi Dehlin [00:17:06] That is interesting.
John Dehlin [00:17:07] Do you know why? Do you have any records of why they came over in 1830 to the
KB Olsen [00:17:13] U.S. i think, you know, they left the ghettos and it was a rough life. Like that's my understanding. But I, I don't, I haven't done the deep dive I should have before I came to chapter.
John Dehlin [00:17:24] But they came to where?
KB Olsen [00:17:26] Philadelphia.
John Dehlin [00:17:27] Okay.
KB Olsen [00:17:28] And then ultimately ended up in New
Margi Dehlin [00:17:31] York,
KB Olsen [00:17:33] in Manhattan and in just north of the city, in like Westchester County.
John Dehlin [00:17:39] Because the little I know about Reform Judaism, there was some sort of Pennsylvania ish declaration in the late 1800s where kind of Reform Judaism was born. And I, as I remember maybe Pittsburgh, I could Google it. But basically when I got turned on to Kind Potok when I was at byu. You ever read Kind Potok?
KB Olsen [00:18:04] No.
John Dehlin [00:18:05] Oh, wow. Okay. And it, what blew me away about Kaim Potok and you know, he has, he has books. The Chosen, the Promise.
KB Olsen [00:18:13] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:18:14] David's Harp. My name is Asher Lev and many others. And what blew my mind is that the Jews have been having faith crises, legitimate intellectual, scientific faith crises for at least a couple hundred years, if not forever. And Reform Judaism was what inspired me to not leave Mormonism in 2001 when I lost my faith. Because I'm like, well, if the Jews can have a flavor of Judaism where they don't have to literally believe in God or literally believe the Old Testament's word for word scripture, but they value the community, they value the culture and they value the spirituality, why can't Mormonism have that? And so you talking about basically Pennsylvania Jews in your ancestry, I'm just like dying. Like I almost want to do your genealogy to know whether your ancestors were reformed Jews at some point.
KB Olsen [00:19:08] I believe they must have been. I mean, I'm just taking hints. I actually, I do have my genealogy like somewhere in my email, so I'll forward that to you after. But you know, I've seen my great grandparents, like they had an, a 25th anniversary party and my dad still has the invitation for, from that in like the late 1800s. And I don't know how, but it seems really secular. Like they don't, it doesn't have religious vibes. And even looking at our family Bible, Jewish Bible that has like all the names written in the front of our family and other artifacts, like even just the things that were saved from that time, like it's clear that there wasn't this like treasuring of Judaica as much as maybe some other objects.
KB Olsen [00:19:58] This is Totally speculation. But it seemed like they were keen on assimilating. And you're right, I mean, there's such an intellectual rigor that's like part of Jewish culture and questioning and that, that questioning is, is really valued. And I can actually see especially now as like the LDS church favors, you know, LDS and the concept of Mormon now also has a secular identity and culture outside of just the religion. There is a really fascinating comparison with that. I think it's just that there's only been, you know, a few decades for that identity within Mormonism to be established. So when you have like thousands of years, you can kind of be like, okay, well this is who I am.
KB Olsen [00:20:50] I mean, that's how I connect to it. I'm like, on some level this is what got people through the generations. And that's really interesting and I, I want to understand that.
John Dehlin [00:21:00] So. Well, yeah, the last thing is I, I would just die to know whether any of your ancestors had intellectual kind of truth claims concerns with Judaism in it. I mean, obviously the racism, the Holocaust stuff would, would be enough to explain someone potentially feeling like I gotta just cut ties because I want to survive in this culture, American culture. Yeah, that would be enough. But if, if your ancestors would have had, you know, concerns about historical criticism, you know, historicity of the Torah and the Talmud or whatever, or just with the literality of the truth claims, that would be such a fascinating parallel with modern Mormons and in some sense represent the grandchildren or the great grandchildren of so many Mormons leaving Mormonism now who will likely be rediscovering their faith two or three generations down the road as they like.
John Dehlin [00:22:01] Yeah, my parents, my great grandparents left the church back in the early 2000s, but now I'm learning more about it because, you know, we, my parents and grandparents hated the church and never talked about it.
KB Olsen [00:22:13] That's really interesting. I mean, I guess the antidote to that will be Mormon stories, right? Like you'll have so many accounts of how and when people dropped the thread or when the shelf broke. Whereas at least with my ancestors, I don't have a written account. I know some people do, actually. My wife's cousin recently wrote a one man show that he's going to be performing at the Edinburgh Film Festival or Fringe Festival. And it's largely based on their grandfather's diaries, journals, and obviously Mormons also have a lot of journals and historic personal narrative. But I don't, I don't know what the faithfulness was of my ancestors when they immigrated. You know, I think by the Time they were living in New York, you know, my. I think they were very inclined towards business and capitalism and, like, identifying maybe with that sort of success.
John Dehlin [00:23:16] It could be a new religion, right?
KB Olsen [00:23:18] Well, yeah, it is. It is the new religion. Right, but interesting. I'm not. I'm not sure. I don't know who dropped the ball, basically, but my grandparents were definitely secular. And in fact, like, my dad went to an Episcopal school, private school, so, you know, he would tell stories. There were definitely stories of, like, the identification with being an outsider. So even though it wasn't with the religion, with the identity, it was sort of like, oh, you know, I would hear peers and fellow students talk about Jews. And I still. Interestingly, even though the actual faith aspect and the belief wasn't handed down, the anxiety and fear of association, you know, from the Holocaust, absolutely.
KB Olsen [00:24:06] Was like, I still was given questions like, well, would that friend hide you from the Nazis? And, wow, you know, so it. It definitely is there, that. That sense of differentness and. And being an outsider, I think that that's been an engine and. And psychological factor maybe for my dad, but otherwise. Yeah, it was never talked to me talk. I never heard about it from a religious standpoint, interestingly, and I may have
John Dehlin [00:24:34] missed this, but did you say your paternal grandmother was Jewish?
KB Olsen [00:24:39] Correct.
John Dehlin [00:24:39] Okay. Okay. So it was your dad that married outside the fold.
KB Olsen [00:24:43] Correct.
John Dehlin [00:24:43] Okay, got it. Okay.
Margi Dehlin [00:24:44] Okay.
John Dehlin [00:24:45] Wow. Okay. So what was your dad's profession?
KB Olsen [00:24:48] If you're comfortable saying, he's a salesman. Okay, okay. An elevator salesman.
John Dehlin [00:24:55] Okay, cool.
Growing Up in the Baltimore Suburbs
KB Olsen [00:24:57] So my family moved to the suburbs of Baltimore when I was 6. We lived in a really interesting community that actually began as sort of a socialist utopia experiment. It was, you know, meant to be this experiment in urban planning where there were these, like, collectives of villages, essentially, that would have people from diverse backgrounds living in community with one another. And there were, like, public pools and gyms and essentially, you know, these philosophical things like mailboxes that were all grouped together so that you would, like, stand at your mailboxes and have conversation. I never saw people actually do that. But.
KB Olsen [00:25:48] But then on the other side, abutting the town was the town I lived in, which was a historic town, not part of that social experiment. So there was, like, just a really interesting tension between, like, even the layout and design in the way that this sort of failed utopia had been intended to function, and then the rest of the community.
KB Olsen [00:26:15] Of course, I didn't understand that context, really, until I was older and then, you know, being in Maryland as well, in terms of, like, American History like Maryland is this strange, sometimes forgotten state. I don't know if you feel this way, Margi, but when I went to college in New York, people were like, oh, like Baltimore. I ended up actually sometimes saying I was from D.C. because people, like, didn't.
KB Olsen [00:26:41] I don't know, the American school system failed them. But it's an interesting place in the mid Atlantic. You know, you learn about the Civil War and it's like it was brother against brother. You know, I always say that it kind of looks like the Chesapeake Bay literally like splits the state in half or something.
KB Olsen [00:26:59] So just kind of an interesting point there. But I had a really average American upbringing. I lived in a like, new suburb, a lot of uniform houses. I went to public school. Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:27:15] We have to ask where. We were huge fans of the Wire. Have you seen the Wire? The Wire is consistently rated one of the top five TV series of all time. And it's set in Baltimore.
Margi Dehlin [00:27:29] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:27:30] And that it. That doesn't paint a very good picture in Baltimore.
KB Olsen [00:27:33] Yeah, I mean, my mom actually grew up in. In Baltimore City in a row house in a neighborhood. You can, you know, see the neighborhood referenced on the Wire. And now, you know, it's. It's really tragic actually, the way that the city has devolved. But so that was like an interesting thing to kind of know that my mom. Yeah. Grew up there and that this city had taken this downturn and was seen that way. Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:28:03] Do you get a sense that the Wire was overblown or over exaggerating?
KB Olsen [00:28:08] I can't really know for sure.
John Dehlin [00:28:10] You know, like in order to magnitude with. Was it within a standard deviation of the truth or.
KB Olsen [00:28:15] It might. It may. I mean, I. So it. The summer after. The first summer after college, I interned at the Baltimore City Paper, which was a local newspaper. And one of my jobs as the intern was to keep the murder map up to date. So, you know, this was like. It's not. It wasn't pre Internet exactly, but early days and there would. They would have a paper map on the wall and you. You would find out like what the murders were of the night before and put up pins in at the location.
John Dehlin [00:28:45] Multiple murders the night before.
Margi Dehlin [00:28:47] Yeah.
KB Olsen [00:28:48] I mean, I don't know what to say. So over the course of the semester, you could sort of see the evolution of like where the pins fall, essentially. And it was fascinating too, because it would be like one block, you know, a lot of violence, and then the next one not. There was just clearly some failure in urban planning and policy that had created the violence in in the neighborhood. So I'm not an expert.
John Dehlin [00:29:16] Relatively safe. Growing up.
KB Olsen [00:29:18] I wasn't in Baltimore.
John Dehlin [00:29:20] Yeah.
KB Olsen [00:29:20] So, I mean, so I was in. You know, I like when you watch someone in the suburbs on tv. Like, it felt like that. So you felt super safe, you know, like. Yes, but I also, you know, grew up in the shadow. Like, my coming of age corresponded very closely to 9 11, which not to like, contextualize through that all the time. But there definitely was this sense of terror being close. I don't know if you remember. Yeah, the Pentagon proximity was major. But also then there was this sniper, Washington's butt way sniper. So that happened while I was in high school. And it was like we couldn't practice sports outside for, you know, an entire season. And they were like, what, the guy
John Dehlin [00:30:11] shooting out his trunk?
KB Olsen [00:30:12] Yeah, it was terrifying. Yeah, it was really, really scary. So there was something of like, you know, this, like, global terror terrorism compounded with this local situation. It felt. It felt very close. It felt like this. This world is unsafe, but I was safe in my home.
John Dehlin [00:30:30] Okay, got it. Wow.
KB Olsen [00:30:31] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:30:31] Important.
John Dehlin [00:30:32] Fascinating. Yeah.
KB Olsen [00:30:33] Yeah, for sure.
John Dehlin [00:30:34] Murder map as a kid. That's intense. Okay.
Margi Dehlin [00:30:37] I'm curious about how you would describe, like, your interests or your personality as a girl growing up in, like, you're kind of describing this suburbia.
KB Olsen [00:30:51] Yeah. I was firstborn daughter, and I think that that characterization was very much true for me. I was extremely shy, you know, really afraid to, like, go up to kids in the neighborhood, go out and play. I needed encouragement in that regard.
KB Olsen [00:31:15] I think I felt different in a variety of ways, but nothing that amounted to like, massive existential suffering in childhood. And I was a perfectionist, for sure, but also extremely interested in art and kind of discovered artistic ability very young. My grandfather was a painter in retirement, and so he kind of taught me a bit about painting and opened my interest. And so I would really strongly identify with him and with. With that practice.
KB Olsen [00:31:54] Yeah, I was really, really sensitive. In my middle school yearbook, my art teacher wrote like, something like, oh, try not to take things so personally. And I was like, damn. If my art teacher is like, writing down, you're a little sensitive. Like, I. I must have been sensy.
Margi Dehlin [00:32:15] Well, what's interesting about that is if you loved art and that might have been a place, you know, that was just a little more tender for you.
KB Olsen [00:32:23] I think I just took things really personal. I wanted to be good, do well. And. Yeah, it's really, you know, it's difficult to grow up and figure out what you're supposed to do? Yeah, it was really confusing for me for a long time. Okay.
Margi Dehlin [00:32:45] Yeah. How about your family culture or family values? Like what it felt like in your home and what was important in your home?
Family Culture, Shame, and Intellectual Development
KB Olsen [00:32:57] Yeah, it's funny, like when I think about our family culture, I can't imagine sort of like being sat down by parents who are going to tell you what they believe and who have insight and context or an entire book of like their belief system and their values. And I definitely didn't have that. You know, there was this sense of an us in them kind of quality that was sort of like, oh, you know, if anyone's like speaking unfavorably about any of us kids or like our family, it was, you know, an up in arms kind of thing, like family loyalty kind of.
Margi Dehlin [00:33:55] Yeah.
KB Olsen [00:33:56] Let me think about how to put that.
John Dehlin [00:33:57] Was there a secular flavor to it? Because were most of your peers religious and was it weird to be in a more secular family?
KB Olsen [00:34:05] Yeah, I mean, I think that they just had a religious identity, you know, like they were, but not, not everyone, but yeah, I think people had like a practicing working religion of some kind. So I felt like an outsider, you know, in Jewish context and in Christian context.
John Dehlin [00:34:23] So you felt like you were a minority, been being non religious.
KB Olsen [00:34:28] I felt that I didn't know where I fit. You know, I was very proud to say, like, we're both, we do Christmas, we do Hanukkah.
John Dehlin [00:34:39] So y' all weren't like overtly identified as secular?
KB Olsen [00:34:43] No, that's the thing. It wasn't like this. We've deconstructed, unpacked what religion and religious identity was. It was kind of a nothingness. And that's why I had this sense of searching, because I, I didn't feel anchored in that way. And I think, you know, my dad worked at the same company he still does for his entire career. It was very like American dream coded. My mom was a stay at home mom. She had three kids under four.
John Dehlin [00:35:15] Wow. And that's kind of Catholic.
KB Olsen [00:35:18] Yeah, right. And so that was kind of this traditional situation. But I didn't get the sense that that traditional American dream felt good for them. Like, I don't think that it felt. There was a lot of conflict and confusion in my family dynamics and day to day. So there, I just wasn't clear on like what how one was to behave, like what the ethical implications of behavior were, how to take accountability for things. You know, it. It didn't feel like there was a lot to hold on to aside from, you know, do your best Work. Here's what people think of us and you know, they're wrong or, you know, kind of these people aren't good. It was, yeah, like a, almost paranoia for like how outside people were seeing and, I don't know, kind of threat kind of. Right, Yeah. A little bit of an ontological insecurity.
John Dehlin [00:36:24] Yeah. Just if I, if you don't mind, like one of the aha moments I
Margi Dehlin [00:36:28] had
John Dehlin [00:36:30] in Mormon stories as I started going around and doing workshops and retreats, I would always have people introduce themselves and inevitably in a group of at least 30, you know, you would always have the pioneer Mormons tell their story.
KB Olsen [00:36:44] Right.
John Dehlin [00:36:44] But you'd always have like 1 out of 20 that were like, oh yeah, I, I grew up in a home that wasn't religious and my parents were hippies or my parents were secular. And when I got to those teen years, I felt no identity. I felt lost. I felt like a sense of longing. And then I met this cute Mormon family or I met the missionaries and then they gave me the theological or doctrinal sort of whatever, or I love the youth group or I love the girl that I was dating. And that sucked me in and what it made me just stop and go, oh, crap.
John Dehlin [00:37:21] Like, so many of us ex Mormons who have left Mormonism are like, we got to get our kids out. Because if we don't get our kids out, they're going to be brainwashed with secularism and morality and patriarchy and all the bad things. So let's get them out and then they'll just flourish and they'll be great because they weren't raised in a cult, you know.
KB Olsen [00:37:43] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:37:44] But then there's the other side of that, where when kids aren't raised with anything, sometimes that creates a vacuum. Yeah, that becomes a vacuum that needs to be filled by something.
KB Olsen [00:37:55] I've often thought about this. You won't be surprised. Like, oh, you know, had I met a really good friend who was Mormon, would it have appealed or. But the thing is, is I did have a close friend who was an evangelical Christian, some non denominational Baptist adjacent something.
KB Olsen [00:38:13] And it didn't, it didn't click. Yeah, I, you know, I went to church with her once and everyone was like writing down what, you know, things from the Bible were being talked about. And I was just like, is everyone like at a PhD level of like intellectual engagement with this ancient text that like, I just don't know, come to find? Like, no, you know, middle schoolers were not like really getting the message and it just felt kind of creepy to me, honestly. She brought me once to a Starbucks to meet with a youth group leader or something. And I had no idea what was going on.
KB Olsen [00:38:55] I didn't know I was going to be, you know, like, this woman ended up telling the story of how she found Christ and she wrote out a timeline for me and she was like, here I was, you know, as a teenager and I got into drugs and blah, blah, and then I, you know, found Christ and, and I was just like, why is she telling me this? Like, what is this? I'm. I don't need Jesus. Or like this idea of like, then I was saved and I was suffering. Before, I didn't think of myself as suffering, even though now in retrospect I'm like, ugh. Like there was a lot of pain and anxiety and like, stifling need to perform, but I didn't see their.
KB Olsen [00:39:39] I didn't see any appeal in, in religion when it was laid out to me like that. Even like going to a dance that my friend invited me to at the church. I didn't feel like drawn in. So I think I could have. And I, and I didn't, like, it was too obviously presented. You know, if they're like, okay, here's this religion where, you know, we have Christ and, and here's one where we don't. Whatever you want. It's kind of hard to then believe that there's like one story that must be the ultimate truth.
Margi Dehlin [00:40:12] Yeah, I can see that. Can I ask you a little bit more about you? You've kind of described yourself a little bit as a girl being shy, perfectionistic, sensitive. Sensitive. And then you also kind of said that you were a seeker. Do you want to explain, like, how did that show up as a girl? What does that mean? And even if you want to kind of expound as you, you grew up a little bit. But when you say that, what do you mean by that?
KB Olsen [00:40:46] I think there was something innate. You know, my parents weren't big on reading. Like my dad would read James Bond books. My mom wasn't really a reader, so my dad. There was a bookshelf in our house in the basement. Like in our unfinished basement. Otherwise, no bookshelf aside, in our rooms, like our kids books. And we were read too, so it's not like a literacy thing. It just was more of a level of curiosity. But I would go down to my. The bookshelf and it had a lot of my dad's books from, I guess, college, I guess his life before. And so in my mind, I Was like, trying to understand, you know, this desire for knowledge.
KB Olsen [00:41:29] And I would, like, take out these books and read them alone. I remember I took the Catcher in the Rye off the shelf when I was maybe in like, fifth grade, and I read that whole book, and my dad was like, why do you got. You know what? So I think I just wanted to know, was just drawn to things.
Margi Dehlin [00:41:47] Yeah.
KB Olsen [00:41:48] And, yeah, I think I did maybe want, like, an organizing principle for life. I mean, the organizing principle ended up being shame, but I was looking for maybe.
John Dehlin [00:42:00] Wait, how does another structure, how someone raised secular, absorb shame? Because we kind of. We in high demand religions kind of think we have a monopoly on that. If you want to share.
KB Olsen [00:42:13] Yeah, I mean, I think the lack of logic in itself can create shame, because then when things feel confusing, it's on you. So it's like I'm the one who's confused in this situation. I would, you know, witness problematic behavior or be on the receiving end of aggressive behavior. And in not understanding, I internalized it as shame. And then when I would watch, you know, just how my mom, in particular, like, felt in her community, and, like, her own anxiety, feelings about herself and her looks, all of it became something for me to absorb. So it's not that I think I developed shame in context of a worldview, but I inherited shame.
KB Olsen [00:43:07] You know, I think even my dad in this, as we were saying, I think when there is an absence of religion, something fills in. I think for my dad, it was like this desire to win and be successful. Maybe like capitalist sense of identity.
KB Olsen [00:43:26] Even though we were middle class, it wasn't that there was, like, excess, you know, wealth. So, yeah, it all kind of led back to, like, well, this is on me to, like, make something of myself. I think I had this idea that my grandparents had grown up in New York City and then they'd left. And maybe there was this time where my family had this interesting promise or something that I wanted to, like, bring back. So I think there was just, like, shame of, like, not fitting in, not feeling comfortable within my family, having a lot of conflict, and then trying to find some story to orient myself and not really being successful at that, I would say.
John Dehlin [00:44:15] Richard Rohr writes that Mormons do first half of life better than anyone he knows. He's a Catholic, I don't know, thinker. And he basically says Mormons do first half of life better than anyone else, but they do second half of life worse than almost anybody else. And that when he talks about first half of life, he's talking about Identity formation, meaning community, purpose. Would you say you felt a possibly profound lack of identity, meaning, purpose, morality, structure, or. I don't want to impose that on you.
KB Olsen [00:44:47] So, I mean, now, in retrospect, yes, because it took me a while to wake up to, like, even ask myself what I was searching for. Right. For example, you know, it's like the confusion. Confusion is a huge thing that I've had to overcome, which is an interesting way to shame. That's maybe like the opposite. You know, you have, like, the rigid way to shame and then the, like, just amorphous way. But, for example, I was baptized in the Episcopalian church when I was 8 years old. I think it was pressure from my mom's Catholic mom, you know, that if we were to die, we'd go to Purgatory. I guess, again, wasn't really, like, let into the loop. So not.
John Dehlin [00:45:31] But not Catholic.
KB Olsen [00:45:32] Not Catholic because it was like, Catholicism, Judaism, like, meet in the middle, I guess. Episcopalian. I. I don't know. That was like, just the preschool that my siblings were going to. I don't know. I, like, I remember the outfit I wore to my baptism, but I was like, fully conscious.
KB Olsen [00:45:48] No connection or context to the religion itself. Like, I think I went to Sunday school maybe for a few months. But that's really confusing, you know, like. And so I'm really trying. I felt like, okay, if I get some version of this right, I'm gonna, like, solve this family conflict or, you know, my parents came from such different backgrounds. My mom's from inner city Baltimore and, you know, working class upbringing, didn't go to college. My dad was from the mainline Philadelphia private school, private university, graduate school, Jewish, Catholic. Like, they were. They were very, very opposite people in. In their upbringing. So I was trying to.
Margi Dehlin [00:46:35] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:46:36] Figure it out, navigate all that.
Margi Dehlin [00:46:38] Yeah.
High School, Best Friends, and Coming Out
John Dehlin [00:46:38] I liked in your outline, you wrote that from a Mormon perspective, you got baptized at the right age.
KB Olsen [00:46:42] Exactly. So I did have that. Yeah. And like, you know, but in the. In as a Mormon, like, it's meant to be that you're claiming this belief. Right. You're like, becoming a member of the religion. You can, like, sin. You can. You can do it all. You're still. Small voice is coming up. Right. Like, but I didn't. I didn't have that experience. I kind of just felt shame walking down the aisle being like, oh, my God, why am I so late to the party on this? Like, it's so embarrassing.
John Dehlin [00:47:14] And what does it mean to be
KB Olsen [00:47:15] eight years old and like, everyone, all the other kids here, they were Baptized right away. Like, they got. Got it. Like, what's wrong with me?
John Dehlin [00:47:21] Interesting.
KB Olsen [00:47:22] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:47:22] And when Mormons are baptized, or I'm sure in Catholicism and Judaism or even Episcopalianism, if you're raised in it, by the time you get baptized, you know what it's all about. But if your parents are like, I don't know, let's get her baptized, maybe we'll do it in the Episcopalian, please.
KB Olsen [00:47:36] The grandmother, like, it just was like, well, who am I pleasing ultimately? Like, it's not God, and. And, you know, I'm not. I'm not going to shout out the priesthood, but, like, kind of intimate that your dad typically is the one, like, baptizing you. Right. And that. That's. That feels personal. That feels, like, chosen. It's something important that they did, and they're going to, like, bring you into it. The metaphor makes sense. So.
John Dehlin [00:48:04] But you would have been done by some Episcopalian priest or whatever.
KB Olsen [00:48:07] Yeah, I just, like, had to lean my head over the bath. It was, like, so awkward, you know, sprinkled. Not get a little sprinkle going.
John Dehlin [00:48:13] Yeah.
KB Olsen [00:48:14] Holy water. What makes the water holy? Don't know. Still to this day.
John Dehlin [00:48:17] Okay.
KB Olsen [00:48:18] So.
Margi Dehlin [00:48:19] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:48:19] Okay. All right. So how did things progress?
KB Olsen [00:48:26] So, yeah, I went to public high school. I met a best friend there who's still my best friend to this day. He was obsessed with fashion. Became a fashion designer. He actually designed my wedding dress. So we have, like, a long standing. He's like my family. And even on my wedding day, like, I got ready with him. He was, like, with me till the moment that we, like, had our ceremony.
John Dehlin [00:48:53] This is horrible. But was he gay?
KB Olsen [00:48:56] Oh, yeah, he's gay, of course. And he kind of, like, introduced me to fashion and it. And that became this identity, one of dreaming of, like, going to some other city where we could be different and cool and amongst our kind. Then just, like, the creative education that we embarked on together, like, we would go to bookstores and buy all the Runway magazines. He was designing dresses for prom for all the girls in school. Like, he designed my prom dresses as well.
Margi Dehlin [00:49:28] Wow.
John Dehlin [00:49:29] Did you end up going to, like.
KB Olsen [00:49:31] Like, yeah, he went to fashion school, and now he, you know, is it a creative director, actually, for a major brand in New York, Lives in Paris with his husband. Like, lived the dream. And at the time, you know, I didn't want to be a designer, but I was like, oh, I'm going to be the editor of Vogue. And so we both. I ultimately did end up working at Vogue. Like, we did it we were very passionate.
Margi Dehlin [00:49:57] When did this friendship start?
KB Olsen [00:50:00] He's a year younger than me, so my sophomore year of high school.
Margi Dehlin [00:50:02] Wow. Isn't that something?
KB Olsen [00:50:05] Yeah. So that sort of became, you know, I liked to experiment with clothes. We would go thrifting. These were like, the golden days of thrifting. Or you could just, like, pluck some Oscar de la Renta for $2. And I learned a lot about it, you know, like, I learned about materials, fit, silhouettes, and just having, I think, this media medium through which I could, like, express things about myself or understand the way things went together. It felt really, like, safe and cohesive. Even though I would have, like, literal teachers, you know, making fun of what I was wearing and, like, calling me out for wearing flip flops and leg warmers. That was. That truly was a look. But so, yeah, fashion, we're talking flash dance leg warmers. Yeah. I don't know.
John Dehlin [00:50:57] Really quickly, do you feel comfortable talking about your awareness around your sexuality and when that emerged?
KB Olsen [00:51:03] Yeah, sure.
John Dehlin [00:51:04] Was that during high school or before or after?
KB Olsen [00:51:06] No, I don't know. To expl. It's such a, like, generation gap now. Like, I don't know how to convey that. Like, I didn't think women could be gay. It didn't occur to me. And, like, now, in retrospect, I can look back and remember, you know, these, like, ring of keys moments to refer to the fun home musical. I don't know if you guys have seen that, but this idea of, like, awakening. You see someone who kind of looks like projection of, like, who you might be in the future, and you don't really know what it is, but it's like a gender identity. It's a stature, clothes.
KB Olsen [00:51:44] So I definitely had, like, encounters I would have, you know, sometimes, like, strange conflict. And in relationships with women, particularly, maybe like, mentor figures. And then in college, that was kind of when I first gained awareness, but it was one of those things where I was, like, aware and then kind of shoved it down somewhere. I was like, I'm going to deal with this later. It was like a conscious thing of, like, I'll think about this another time. I'm busy.
KB Olsen [00:52:22] And then I didn't come out, actually, until I was in my 20s. I was 25, so it felt very late at the time. Now I don't see it that way, but I definitely had this moment of, like, how could I have not fully known this about myself? Why? I felt a lot of shame about the lateness, I think, of coming out. But in high school, I didn't Like, I didn't understand the enthusiasm with which my peers were, like, talking about boys or their sexual experiences. Like, I would just go, like, cold with kind of, like, horror in. In those encounters. So to me, they were kind of like a way of having social currency. So.
Margi Dehlin [00:53:10] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:53:10] Do you know if your parents would have been just generally LGBT affirming during your late adolescence?
KB Olsen [00:53:16] It would not have have been affirming. They. They were not when I first came
John Dehlin [00:53:21] out, even though they didn't have a religious. It's active religious framing.
KB Olsen [00:53:28] I don't know what to tell you.
Margi Dehlin [00:53:29] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:53:30] Okay.
KB Olsen [00:53:30] They have, like, conservative, you know, politically, a little bit socially. I. I guess. But no, they would not, probably. Or, like, it would have been a journey, and it was actually a journey. But I think in part just that they didn't know. And it became sort of this, like, symbol for all the ways that they didn't know me. We didn't know each other. And they definitely were not supportive at first, but they did come to my wedding, and we've had, I don't know, I guess, resolution with that.
Margi Dehlin [00:54:12] Okay. I have a quick question. Sure. Like, how would you talk about. I'm just all about this friend in high school.
KB Olsen [00:54:22] Oh, yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:54:23] That you met and. Because I view the type of relationship that you guys have had through the years is quite rare. Yes. Especially meeting that young.
KB Olsen [00:54:33] Oh, yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:54:34] But also, how would you talk about your experience? Because I'm. I'm having this feeling for you growing up, and I'm not sure it's accurate, so I just want to check with you.
KB Olsen [00:54:42] Sure.
Margi Dehlin [00:54:43] But you've mentioned kind of feeling a sense of being different. Feeling different. Having definitely large threats, like, growing up with kind of this reminder of larger. Like, the world can be dangerous and unpredictable. How would you talk about. Particularly as a young girl and then maybe moving into this friendship in 10th grade. Like, did you feel a sense of. Not, like, necessarily loneliness, though it could be loneliness or even just feeling alone in the world sometimes. Like, did you have a feel for that?
KB Olsen [00:55:27] I very much did, but I think from the outside, it wouldn't have been super obvious. Okay. I think that I would see the ways that people connected with each other in friendship romantically, and it. It didn't seem to come naturally to me, but I think I had a sense within my perfectionism that, like, maybe I was above human connection, which sounds so extreme to say, but, you know, I used to be the kind of person who would be like, people only get dogs, so they can, like, talk about their dogs with each other. Like, it didn't occur to me that you could. I don't think I had a lot of.
John Dehlin [00:56:08] Form a bond with the dog.
Margi Dehlin [00:56:10] Yeah.
KB Olsen [00:56:10] I don't think I had a lot of, like, emotional awareness.
Margi Dehlin [00:56:13] Yeah.
KB Olsen [00:56:13] Or maybe even empathy at that time. And so from the outside, I think I was just trying to, you know, keep the line. I would have. I have, like, these fond bouts of, like, creative collaboration with friends. Like, a friend of mine, we would like, use her handheld camcorder and just, like, make TV shows. There was no YouTube. There was nowhere for it to go. We would just, like, then rewind the tape and start again for the next time.
Margi Dehlin [00:56:39] But it was about the process of creating it. Yeah.
KB Olsen [00:56:41] Like, these. There were outlets that I had. You know, I also. I played tennis, so I was, like, involved in sports. I was on the school newspaper. Like, I was involved. I. I think the first time I felt, like, depressed or I couldn't quite get myself to feel good was when I was a teenager. But I didn't see it that way. I thought I was so capable of achieving so much. I could get by, get into college, do what I needed to do, that I didn't really have the capacity to see the ways I was hurting.
Margi Dehlin [00:57:19] Right, right. It's kind of like you don't know what you don't know or not being conscious of things you're not conscious of yet.
KB Olsen [00:57:26] Yeah. And I just had a long way to go, you know, like, my. I was raised in a Republican conservative family, but again, like, no religious identity, so it just took a lot of rounds to, like, unpack what. Where I was coming from, basically.
Margi Dehlin [00:57:45] Right. That's right. And in the. In understanding the importance sometimes of the role of structure or ritual, even in a secular sense, within families, communication. Yeah, it sounds like. So did you feel like, with this friend in 10th grade, did it feel different to you? Like, do you feel like it awakened you in a way? Because the one you're talking about, it.
John Dehlin [00:58:10] The connection lights up a little bit.
Margi Dehlin [00:58:11] Yeah, you kind of like. It feels like it was like oxygen or whether it's the exploration, the curiosity.
KB Olsen [00:58:20] Oh, definitely. I mean, I think one, we were, like, literally exploring and that we would go to these thrift stores. We would, like, go to dinner in Washington, D.C. and when you're like, a teenager, that was a really cool thing to go do.
KB Olsen [00:58:37] And, you know, I was sort of like a. He was definitely the main character. And so I was like a. You know, I was the sidekick, I would say, but I sort of resented that role. And we were teens, so There was definitely moments where it was, like, a little bit like, you know, is this my.
KB Olsen [00:58:57] Like, will we be friends forever? Are we just both into this? But now when I look back, I have so much gratitude. We had so many points of connection in our feelings within our family. We would talk about our parents. He was absolutely the first person to whom I, like, laid bare some of what I was, like, going through in my family in conflict. And we had that point of understanding. But he also was, like, shocked by certain things or would respond to things I would describe. And that was, like, my first way of seeing myself was definitely through his eyes.
Margi Dehlin [00:59:33] For sure. Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:59:35] Did you know any Mormon kids in your high school?
KB Olsen [00:59:39] There was one. One that I knew of, yes. And I actually, like, hung out with him one day. I don't know if I would, like, fully call it a date, but we watched this movie together. I, like, interacted with many different boys in high school, but we watched this movie, the Village. M. Night Shyamalan.
Margi Dehlin [01:00:06] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:00:07] Well, it's one of my favorite movies
KB Olsen [01:00:08] of all time, so I think it's
John Dehlin [01:00:11] a great metaphor for religious faith crisis.
KB Olsen [01:00:13] Well, he. I don't know where he is today. Like, for all I know, he's a stake president. Like, I don't. Yeah, but he brought it over. He's like, oh, like, you're really gonna like this. I was really into, like, philosophy. I would talk to, you know, talk to people about stuff.
KB Olsen [01:00:29] Anyway, so he brings this movie over. We watch it immediately. Like, they have American accents, right? And it's meant to be, like, an American, a British colony. And so I just said, I mean, this may be, like, the first 10 minutes of the movie. I was like, they don't have British accents. Like, is this modern day? Like, what's wrong with this film? And he was like, well, that kind of ruins it.
KB Olsen [01:00:51] But, yeah, it's so interesting now to think that we watched that together. And I'm, like, so curious what the rest of his experience and journey was. But all I knew is his family had a lot of kids. He happened to just be, like, a pale person. And so I thought there was something with them, like, not being allowed to go outside. I mean, this is like the.
John Dehlin [01:01:13] Like, almost like Mormons are Amish, maybe.
KB Olsen [01:01:16] Something I didn't know. And I don't think I understood that, like, Mormons weren't polygamists or that that was separate. Even though I don't think I knew what polygamy was. I just was like, there's something that I don't understand about this yeah, this
John Dehlin [01:01:33] would have been pre. Book of. More musical.
KB Olsen [01:01:36] Pre south park episode, probably. Pre south park episode, yeah.
John Dehlin [01:01:39] Maybe Big Love. You mentioned Big Love, right?
KB Olsen [01:01:42] I didn't watch Big Love till college, so there'd already been a few seasons, so.
John Dehlin [01:01:45] Yeah, you would have had very little.
KB Olsen [01:01:46] This was my first. I had no context whatsoever. I can't remember the year that Elizabeth Smart was kidnapped. That was sometime when I think I'm her same age. So that was around that time. And so I think I was aware of Mormons, like, through that situation. I mean, just I remember how, like, clean and well, presenting her family was. And on the news, they kept saying, like, they're Mormons. They're Mormons, they're Mormons. And I was like, what does that have? What does that mean? But also the fact that then ultimately, when they found her, this man who had become a religious zealot.
John Dehlin [01:02:21] Brian David Mitchell.
KB Olsen [01:02:22] Yes. Like, I had no idea. Now I understand, like, how he, like, fell into that religious psychosis. Not to say he wasn't accountable and a horrible criminal, but at the time, it was just like, where are folks, like, putting on veils and going up to the mountains thinking they're going to be close to God or something like that was the first I had, I think, heard of that, like, religious extremism in my mind was Al Qaeda, and that's it. In America. We don't have religious extremism in my. In my 2003 brain.
John Dehlin [01:02:56] But he was also a polygamist, you know.
KB Olsen [01:02:58] Yes. Yeah, yeah. So it was, like, floating. I was curious, for sure. And then the south park episode came out, and I watched that. I wasn't even, like, a big fan of south park at the time, but my. My little brother really liked it, of course. And I would be like. Like, I always really disliked offensive language and cursing and violence and. But I watched this Mormon episode, and it was just so fascinating to me and so funny. I think I had never heard any of it. And they lay it bare, you know, they're like, oh, yeah. He, like, looked and read the plates and hats and, like, the song is like, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb. So to me, I was like, okay, the story of this is that it's dumb. That was my first impression. That's the first storytelling that I got.
South Park and Early Mormon Cultural Exposure
John Dehlin [01:03:47] And that came out in 2003. So it would have been two years before your high school graduation.
KB Olsen [01:03:51] Yes.
Margi Dehlin [01:03:52] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:03:52] Well, I don't know when you saw
KB Olsen [01:03:53] it, but I think around, like, after. But around the time.
John Dehlin [01:03:57] So Mormons are dumb. Mormons are polygamous. Mormons are weird.
Margi Dehlin [01:04:01] Yeah.
KB Olsen [01:04:01] It's so sad. I don't mean it.
John Dehlin [01:04:03] But, like, abduction. Someone got abducted.
KB Olsen [01:04:06] Dumb, dumb, dumb.
John Dehlin [01:04:07] But also clean cut.
KB Olsen [01:04:09] But then, you know, I think there's a lot of nuance in the south park episode too, where, like, the family is just so incredibly happy and they're like, okay, Stan, like, let's play a game. And I. And I was interested in that as well.
John Dehlin [01:04:22] Like, wait, was Stan the Jewish Stan or Kyle that's Jewish on.
Margi Dehlin [01:04:26] Oh, maybe.
KB Olsen [01:04:26] I don't remember.
John Dehlin [01:04:27] One of them is one of them. I wonder if you identified with the Jewish kid, Secular Jewish kid on Sunday.
KB Olsen [01:04:32] No, I just wasn't. Like, his family was more Jewish than mine, probably.
John Dehlin [01:04:37] That's true.
KB Olsen [01:04:38] But I really wanted it, you know, Like, I wanted to understand. Yeah. So I was curious that it stuck in my mind. For sure. I thought it was a really great episode and it got me really interested in south park, just how short the episodes were, but how much storytelling there was.
John Dehlin [01:04:58] Would you have caught the Scientology Tom Cruise come Out of the Closet episode on south park or no?
KB Olsen [01:05:03] Yeah, I definitely watched that. I don't know where in the. You know, by before college, I would say yes.
John Dehlin [01:05:10] I think south park recruited a lot of people into cult awareness, I think.
KB Olsen [01:05:15] I think so. That sounds about right. Because I think, at least in, like, extreme subcultures, that was always such an amazing touch point for conflict. Right. Like, if you have this very seemingly boring small town in Colorado and then you have all of these, like, extreme subcultures that come and interact with the characters there, it just, like, creates these explosive moments that are really ripe. But I do think it was maybe a lot of people in the US Their first time hearing about Scientology or Mormonism. Mormonism,
John Dehlin [01:05:57] yeah. South park has a soft heart for Mormons like Trey and Matt, because whether it's the Book of War musical or the South Park.
Margi Dehlin [01:06:05] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:06:06] Mormon episode.
KB Olsen [01:06:07] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:06:08] The Mormons are kind, nice, intelligent people, I think.
KB Olsen [01:06:13] I mean, and that was my impression as well.
John Dehlin [01:06:17] Yeah.
KB Olsen [01:06:19] And that's, like, part of the fascination, too, because, again, to have only heard of the existence of Mormonism through South park and then to see what a popular religion it was, but then to know, okay, this story is objectively dumb. That's the. That's the whole thing. I was just like, do they know? And then if they don't know, what could it be that I don't know? Like, if these people do not know this, but this is the foundation of their entire belief system, what are we capable of not seeing or Understanding, like what is buried with the plates.
Margi Dehlin [01:07:07] Wait, that's the thought you had around the time that you watched the south park episode. That's, that's a realization.
KB Olsen [01:07:14] It really struck me.
Margi Dehlin [01:07:15] Yes, that's really something.
KB Olsen [01:07:17] It really struck me as strange, I think, because they were so compassionate in their depiction and because as you're saying, like, okay, the first half of life, you know, this episode is through the child perspective. But then even to see how quickly his parents, you know, meet the Mormons, literally, and they're like softened and compelled as well. It's like, okay, you can't look away from this performance of, of family and wholeness and like, we don't have that. We're just like watching tv. Like, that contrast was really fascinating to me and it stuck with me. Obviously, here I am.
John Dehlin [01:07:57] I would guess that you know that I just recently rewatched the south park episode. Yeah, they're playing games and they're playing music. The Mormon family playing games. They're playing musical instruments.
KB Olsen [01:08:07] Yeah, they all play instruments.
John Dehlin [01:08:09] They're having like family home evening and they're making cookies and treats. And to contrast, and to contrast that with the families of Kyle and Cartman and Stan of South park, it's just like empty media based violence, violent family,
KB Olsen [01:08:28] all of these things. Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:08:30] Wow.
John Dehlin [01:08:30] I can see how that might make an impression on you.
KB Olsen [01:08:33] It did.
John Dehlin [01:08:33] Yeah.
KB Olsen [01:08:34] I mean, now obviously all this is in retrospect and there's like, I'm sure if someone listening to this now were to psychoanalyze me, it's like, huh, she has a little trouble talking about her own family. But then the Mormons like, turns it on. It's like so, like, yeah, there. I think I just needed some receptacles, like vessels for some of these questions about identity. And like the Mormon story was like pretty tight and then, you know, it unravels. So.
John Dehlin [01:09:07] But if part of today is to understand why you're fascination with Mormonism, it's got to be a contrast between your family experience growing up, for good or bad, not. Not to say the contrast with that and the in the family image that Mormons were known for and, or have projected. Maybe.
KB Olsen [01:09:28] I just feel that by the time I would have seen the south park episode, mentally, I was checked out. I was ready. I knew I wanted to go to college in New York City. I wanted to be a journalist. I was gone. I knew I wasn't gonna like stay in Maryland.
John Dehlin [01:09:47] Have you checked out of your family, do you mean? Okay, maybe.
KB Olsen [01:09:49] Yeah. But definitely in retrospect, there is Something of this. The clarity of identity, the one true church. You know, there's this idea with Judaism of the chosen people and having this experience where, like, I'm not chosen and I had to understand why and, like, why my connection as a Jew wasn't valid and people directly would invalidate that. So then to see, like, this other newer religion where they have that resolve, I don't know, it was just, like, really interesting. Very American also. Yeah, I think, like, it's the. The American religion. Right. So to then to realize as I was, like, learning about politics and starting to understand that, like, my politics differed from my family, I think that, again, having this culture that had distilled these American values into such a potent, like, principles for life, there was a very helpful, like, compare and contrast going on in my mind.
John Dehlin [01:11:02] Fun.
KB Olsen [01:11:02] Yeah.
Big Love and Deepening Mormon Interest
John Dehlin [01:11:03] So where did your Mormon journey continue? Where and how?
KB Olsen [01:11:09] So next. Yeah, I probably was watching Big Love, which actually my best friend from high school introduced to me, which, for those
John Dehlin [01:11:16] of you who don't know, it's an HBO series about Mormon. Modern Mormon fundamentals.
KB Olsen [01:11:24] And, yeah, it's like one character is from, like, the flds, and then the others, you know, are modern fundamentalists. So it was. It was really interesting. I'd never understood that before. It clarified, you know, the difference between mainstream LDs and fundamentalists. Love. Chloe Sevigny. It's so interesting. Like, the coolest nightclub ever. When I was in college in New York City, her brother was an owner.
John Dehlin [01:11:56] So I would, like, tell us who she is.
KB Olsen [01:11:58] Chloe Sevigny. She's a actress, very much like New York City. She was in the film Kids and a couple other Harmony Korean films. She's a fashion icon. She's an actress. Just. Yeah. Incredibly beautiful. Cool.
John Dehlin [01:12:15] Was she in Big Love?
KB Olsen [01:12:16] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:12:17] Okay. She one of the wives or.
KB Olsen [01:12:18] Yeah, okay. She plays the wife from the FLDS community.
John Dehlin [01:12:23] The blonde. Yeah.
KB Olsen [01:12:26] So that was, like. I don't know, it, like, created this link between the two worlds for me. Right. Because I was, like, discovering her work through Big Love first. And she's like a, you know, a massive cultural figure in the city. And then at night going out, partying, I didn't really drink or anything, but I just, like, went out and was there her brother at her brother's nightclub. And seeing her in person, to me, it just, like, threaded them in my mind because I was, like, getting these two sides at the same time, if that makes sense.
John Dehlin [01:12:59] And then, you know, I've never seen Margi and I. Neither of us have seen Big Love.
KB Olsen [01:13:03] Oh, really?
John Dehlin [01:13:03] Yeah.
KB Olsen [01:13:04] Why not you.
John Dehlin [01:13:05] Just like, I'm so. Like, it's just this year that Margi and I have been able to, like, see Game of Thrones. We tried Breaking Bad. We backslid to Better Call Saul. Like, we have had such upbringing of. Of no swearing. No. No nudity. No, you know, violence. Like, and I'm. That's. That's exaggerating because I. I would have seen violent or sexual movies historically. But sure, I guess the level of violence or nudity or sexuality or whatever, it. It always felt coarse to me. Like, we tried Game of Thrones like, four or five times before we. And we had to watch, like, six episodes before we could, like, finally get into it. Just because the sensibility of, like, A Big Love.
KB Olsen [01:13:55] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:13:56] Or what was the Mafia, gangster, HBO series.
KB Olsen [01:14:02] Sopranos.
John Dehlin [01:14:02] Yeah, Sopranos. Like, any of that stuff is just, like. Just clashes with. With classic Mormon moral sensibilities. So I would have tried to see Big Love as an ex Mormon early on and just like, oh, this feels yucky to me. So then I just wouldn't. Margi, I don't want to speak for you.
Margi Dehlin [01:14:21] Yeah. I'm kind of different that way. And by the way, we love Game of Thrones and we love the Wire, so. Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:14:29] And I love Better Call Saul.
Margi Dehlin [01:14:31] I do, too.
John Dehlin [01:14:31] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:14:32] I love. So, you know, we've come a long way, baby. But also, I feel like, for me, weren't we in Logan when Big Love came out? I'm trying to remember where we were, but 2004, I think for me, you know, we were. We had just moved to Utah, if I'm remembering kind of contextually when it came out. And I think for me, at that point already, Faith journeying away from. And I living in Utah and living in kind of a more insular, I would say, place in Utah, largely Mormon. I did not want to watch Mormon entertainment at that point. Like, if anything, I was trying to remind myself that actually the world was large and some of those things that actually I grew up with, like, more of my childhood had given me.
Margi Dehlin [01:15:24] So I think that was more. My reasoning is just sort of, I live Mormonism. Why do I want to actually now watch. Watch it, too?
KB Olsen [01:15:31] Yeah, that makes perfect sense. Yeah. I mean, and my least favorite parts of that show are the. The violence. And, you know, I think just for your nervous system, watching Game of Thrones is really intense.
John Dehlin [01:15:50] But you liked Big Love and was it the Mormon stuff?
KB Olsen [01:15:53] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:15:53] Okay.
KB Olsen [01:15:54] Like, I. I liked the family drama part of it much more than, you know, when they're, like, having these political Conflicts. I haven't watched it in quite some time, but I know there's like violence between the family at Short Creek, they call it, and the family that are the protagonists. And then in college I read under the Banner of Heaven and that was kind of my.
Margi Dehlin [01:16:23] Whoa.
KB Olsen [01:16:24] Breakthrough.
John Dehlin [01:16:24] What made you read that? Had you read Crack Hour before? Like,
KB Olsen [01:16:32] I can't remember. I may have read it.
John Dehlin [01:16:34] You're at nyu. That's a big jump, by the way.
KB Olsen [01:16:37] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:16:37] And I imagine your parents might not have been able to afford NYU if you were suburbs, middle class Baltimore.
KB Olsen [01:16:44] I was really fortunate in that my. I had a family member who helped them, like my grandfather and. But no, I mean, this was sort of. This is like some of the, I think angle on like their middle class American experience is it's like not poor enough to like be helped ever, but not wealthy enough that like things like this are easy. So it's like this forgotten area. But did you see going to New
John Dehlin [01:17:15] York is kind of going back to your roots a little bit.
KB Olsen [01:17:17] A little. I mean, it was definitely some like fantasy concept in my mind that like my family had left New York, but I was gonna like go back and reclaim the family name. Like there's something where my great grandfather, my great great grandfather, the one who changed his name, his family, actually, I think that was my grandfather's side. Someone had like made a lot of money and then the next generation, like lost it all. So there was this sort of like lost fortune or like something. And that wasn't like close to my upbringing or anything I even witnessed. But I think I had this idea that I was of New York or something. I mean, New York has its own cult.
Margi Dehlin [01:18:01] Right.
KB Olsen [01:18:01] Like this own idea of how to. How to be a. An interesting. Right. Chosen person.
Margi Dehlin [01:18:11] And it's also just a really. For me when I visit, it's full of energy. It's very creative.
KB Olsen [01:18:17] Oh, yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:18:18] I feel like you have this sense of just so many different people.
KB Olsen [01:18:24] Oh, definitely at melting pot.
Margi Dehlin [01:18:27] Yeah. Right. In a way, it's like just try to stand out. Like, how would you do that?
KB Olsen [01:18:30] Oh, totally. And people, you know, leave their family of origin and come and.
Margi Dehlin [01:18:36] Yeah.
KB Olsen [01:18:36] Find their chosen family. All that is also very, very true and extremely valuable.
Margi Dehlin [01:18:40] There's some lore there. Yeah.
KB Olsen [01:18:41] About New York City.
John Dehlin [01:18:42] It's also the birthplace of Mormonism 100.
Margi Dehlin [01:18:47] So in many ways you were.
KB Olsen [01:18:49] So it was all connected. Yeah. So I read under the Banner of Heaven.
John Dehlin [01:18:53] Oh my gosh.
KB Olsen [01:18:54] My roommate. I think my roommate read it first. She was in fashion design school as well. Oh.
Margi Dehlin [01:19:01] So were you in. No. I was gonna ask what you studied.
KB Olsen [01:19:03] I studied journalism and art history, so.
Margi Dehlin [01:19:05] Journalism and art history?
KB Olsen [01:19:06] Yeah. We weren't at the same school.
John Dehlin [01:19:07] School.
KB Olsen [01:19:07] We ended up rooming together. This was my senior year. And she was from the Midwest and had grown up a Christian and was processing a lot of that and, like, designing her collection. So she was doing this collection about, like, biblical apocalypse and like, apocalyptic prophecy. And it was like these, like, exploded shoulders meant to be like, meteorites. And we just, like, got into it together. And she's also still one of my best friends, and I believe she read it first and then I read it. And yeah, that book was like the most life change, perspective shifting book that I read in college, which, like, it wasn't a sign. I just picked it up.
Margi Dehlin [01:19:54] How.
KB Olsen [01:19:54] So I didn't know that's how America was created out here. I didn't know, like, no one. Like the Mountain Meadows massacre, all of this violence, the way that indigenous populations were decimated and treated, like how reservations came to be created. And this claim, you know, this ancient claim on America for white colonizers. I was just like, what the hell are you talking about?
Margi Dehlin [01:20:32] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:20:33] And this is America, right? I mean, that.
KB Olsen [01:20:35] And I was like, that's more America than any of my understanding. It was like, earth shattering.
John Dehlin [01:20:41] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:20:41] Yeah. To learn that talk about, like, deconstruction. That's. I don't know if you feel like you got a narrative.
John Dehlin [01:20:49] You think she deconstructed America A little bit. Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:20:51] Like, there are all sorts of deconstructions. I feel like we do through life.
KB Olsen [01:20:55] I'm endlessly deconstructed. Yeah, right. And I think that was a big part of why when you were like, if you're never Mormon, come on. I was like, we're deconstructing. Like, this is the experience of being American now. And I think we are like. So the structures that need to be deconstructed. Deconstructed are so much more than, like, Mormon identity.
KB Olsen [01:21:19] So that was like my first American deconstruction. Like, I knew that my politics were different than my parents, but it was very much based on, like, social things. And I. I still, you know, wanted to believe that this was just kind of like a surface level identification. Like, I didn't understand where American values, like, where they were created, like, what had actually happened in American history, which is so, like, heartbreaking. But that was the first time I started to learn that. Even though I was, like, studying art history, so you see the imagery and expression and symbolism, you See, the power of religion, like, all art is religious art up to modern times, essentially.
KB Olsen [01:22:10] So I saw the power. I saw that people were making it, that it was funded by. By churches, by patriarchy, by the stories in the Bible. Like, all of that felt very, very big. But then when I was understanding, like, you know, hand to throat violence and how you could, you know, kill off entire populations of people in the name of God, and it wasn't in this ancient way, you know, it was contemporary
Reading the Book of Mormon as an Outsider
John Dehlin [01:22:42] kind of American primeval 100.
KB Olsen [01:22:45] Yeah. So that just blew my mind. I didn't know. I didn't. You know, I played Oregon Trail in elementary school. Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:22:54] We.
John Dehlin [01:22:55] We had bonnets and we got in wagons. Yeah. Okay.
KB Olsen [01:22:58] They, like, went west and eat beef jerky. Right.
Margi Dehlin [01:23:02] Like, and there's even this sense of like, we were the first people there.
KB Olsen [01:23:07] That's how they made it sound kind of.
Margi Dehlin [01:23:09] As opposed to like.
KB Olsen [01:23:10] No, actually, you know, they're like, oh, we bought Manhattan for some beads. And then we hitched the wagons and made our way, went west. Like, excuse me, what? But then for the Mormons, not only that, they're like, well, we were actually here already and these indigenous people, they're of Satan. So it totally checked.
John Dehlin [01:23:38] You mean the Lamanites.
KB Olsen [01:23:39] The Lamanites, yeah.
John Dehlin [01:23:41] Cursed.
KB Olsen [01:23:41] Correct.
John Dehlin [01:23:42] And given dark skin because of their wickedness.
KB Olsen [01:23:44] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:23:45] That's an American tale.
KB Olsen [01:23:46] It is. And it's not just, you know, a Mormon perspective and like.
Margi Dehlin [01:23:50] Right.
John Dehlin [01:23:51] They're talking about the. The mound builder myth that preceded Joseph Smith.
KB Olsen [01:23:56] Yes, yes. So I don't. Yeah, all of that just. That was my first deconstruction.
John Dehlin [01:24:01] That would be mind blowing. And I would guess the majority of Americans have never even done that exploration before, right?
KB Olsen [01:24:08] Probably not.
John Dehlin [01:24:09] You know, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and found his Constitution and Liberty Bell.
KB Olsen [01:24:15] Like, I don't think. I think that especially in recent years, some people are like, just tuning in to the ways that our history has created all of the systems that oppress most people in this country and benefit very few. And yeah, I think I just wanted to know what else was being hidden and why. Like, this was my first sense even as a journalist that, like, these narratives had been shaped far more. And in fact, things were. There was intentional deception and I couldn't quite figure out who had decided that and how it had happened. And, you know, that was like my first awakening as well, that, like, history was lived by, like, average people, that people in the past weren't necessarily these, like, wiser with a vision that they knew at the time, like, what things would become like, it was remarkable to me to read about Joseph Smith and just be like, this dude in his 20s, like, digging around.
KB Olsen [01:25:22] And then there's like the Mormon temple in Bethesda that you see from the beltway. I just, like, that blew my mind. The impact that an idea or a story could have.
John Dehlin [01:25:35] And if I could just connect with you as someone raised Mormon with the total pioneer Mormon worldview. When I ironically was introduced to Kaim Potok at byu and I start learning about, like, wait, Jews were questioning the historicity of their scripture in the late 1800s. And then in the mid-1900s, Jews were having ferocious debates about whether or not their scripture was historical and whether they were the chosen people. And, like, what happened if you spoke out and then certain Jews were ostracized.
KB Olsen [01:26:12] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:26:13] And then their religious leaders were even persecuting the secular, liberal, educated Jews that were speaking out.
KB Olsen [01:26:23] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:26:23] You can see how, like, I'm like, whoa. And then I'm like, wait a minute, is that happening in my world? You know, but I learned it through your ancestors world.
Margi Dehlin [01:26:34] Yeah.
KB Olsen [01:26:34] I mean. Yeah, that's really fascinating. I mean, I definitely think from like an archaeological standpoint, for example, like, everyone has to come to realize that, like, there isn't really archaeological evidence of the Jews in Egypt or very minimal the
John Dehlin [01:26:49] existence of Abraham or the.
KB Olsen [01:26:50] So you're like, okay, this is just a story, right. Incredibly valuable, poetic story, and you can use it to hold it up as a mirror to every single year, whatever point in history we're at. So hugely valuable. What a beautiful ritual. Like the symbolism of the Passover Seder. I love it. This is what made me want to understand Judaism and into it on some level. So. But. But that this was where it's so funny. Like, we do have the reverse experience where, like, I just had that understanding that, like, it's fine, we know that stories aren't true. Like, these religious stories that didn't happen. Right. So then, like, for the Mormons, though, they're like, no, no, no. Like, Joseph Smith was a young man. He couldn't have written the Book of Mormon. And I'm like, yes. He what? Like, it's. That. That.
Margi Dehlin [01:27:46] That's interesting.
KB Olsen [01:27:46] That felt like a weird disconnect for me of, like, the literalism of the. The Mormon story, because I was like, we all know, you know, these are just useful stories. And then it was realizing, okay, this is like a violent, terrifying history, you know, set up on something dumb. I'm so sorry, like, burst out there. No, no.
Margi Dehlin [01:28:13] Just bringing back to that yes.
KB Olsen [01:28:16] Yeah. I'm not actually saying that like, I understand why.
Margi Dehlin [01:28:19] Yeah,
KB Olsen [01:28:22] yeah. So then from there, I think. Oh, right. As I was reading under the Banner of Heaven, that was when the Yearning for Zion Ranch was raided in. Yeah. Like 2008. And that was like Warren Jeff's compound in Texas. And that was all over the news. And so, like, now I had this understanding of American history in the context of Mormon history. And then there were these Mormon extremists who were, like, practicing what they saw to be like, the original Mormon principles. And that just, like, fascinated me as well. Even just like, the visuals. Having been interested in fashion, to see the homogeneity, the color palette, the conformity, the hairstyles.
KB Olsen [01:29:12] Especially, like, in America, we don't. There. There's very few subcultures that I think have. I mean, actually Orthodox Judaism, like Hasidic Judaism is. Is one of them, where it's like this historic reference point for dress and gender presentation. And that really interested me. I was into it.
KB Olsen [01:29:36] Yeah. And I was also just like, what is going on, you know, with these women? Like, are they okay? Like, what. What is this? You know, you see them on the news and they're all like, we're great. Like, we love it. We choose this and you mean in the flds. Yeah. Like, this is our choice. I think coming into, you know, my parents had very traditional gender roles. So then coming to understand, like, what is choosing. What is womanhood to me, like, what is optional?
Margi Dehlin [01:30:09] Yeah.
KB Olsen [01:30:09] I don't know. It's very interesting to observe.
Margi Dehlin [01:30:13] So. So would you say up to this point, are you getting to know Mormonism through kind of media popular culture as opposed to, like, did you ever just Wikipedia or, like, try to do a deep dive about.
KB Olsen [01:30:30] Yes.
Margi Dehlin [01:30:30] Mormonism and just being. Yeah. Like, trying to understand actually what do they think about their. What is the history? How did this.
KB Olsen [01:30:37] Oh, this corresponded with deep dives. I think this was around when I found the ex Mormon subreddit probably as well. So I was just anyone. I had my, like, first iPhone and I was just reading all there was to read. And, like, I would sit up late on my laptop reading, clicking all the Wikipedia. At the time, it was like, kind of fun to play Wikipedia golf. I don't know if you guys ever. Where it was like, you start in one place, like with one word, and you're meant to, like, be clicking links until you get to another that's seemingly very far away. Right. So you start with Joseph Smith and they're like, okay, end at Whitney Houston and like, you have to strategically click through.
KB Olsen [01:31:16] Oh, that does. To try to, like, that's what we did on the early Internet. I don't know. Anyway, so I would do that. And I really liked, like, starting or finishing in, like, very specific, you know, Mormon subject matter because it felt obscure or, like, a fun one to throw out at people.
KB Olsen [01:31:35] So, yeah, I started reading it. I think I, on some trip, I came across a free Book of Mormon. Um, this was in college. When I said I was going on Mormon stories, my sister was like, oh, are you going to tell them that? Like, you have the Book of Mormon in your bedroom, like, your childhood bedroom still? And I didn't even remember that. I was like, oh, my gosh. She's like, yeah, you've just had that there for years and years. So I think I attempted to read it and, you know, I still had, like, a liberal arts education, so we were learning about different religious texts.
KB Olsen [01:32:10] Like, I was actually in this program in high school that was designed so that you were learning the history, literature, music, and art of a certain historic time period or place simultaneously instead of it kind of being at random. So it was meant to, like, create this more comprehensive picture of history and the arts. And so it was just, like, interesting me to, to read. Interesting to me to read a, a religious text.
John Dehlin [01:32:41] You know, Mormons are conditioned to feel like it's the best book ever. Like, literally the most important book ever published.
KB Olsen [01:32:47] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:32:48] Like, how, how did you find it? If you remember or can feel comfortable sharing. I mean, you've already called us all dumb, so don't hold back.
KB Olsen [01:32:55] Okay? No, I didn't. That was a reference. I was that doing a callback to south park and using it being too literal. Nuance of the outsider view. I love Mormons. That's why I'm here. Really? Yeah. I mean, I just found it, I found it pretty dense. And compared to other historic poetry and storytelling, it left a bit to be desired. And I also noticed, you know, some obvious, like, discrepancies, like the word, the French words that are in the Book of Mormon, Adieu. Like, things like that. I was just like, what is this? And it was also not fully understanding, again, that this was, like, believed literally. I think part of me was trying to interpret it.
John Dehlin [01:34:02] Oh, yeah.
KB Olsen [01:34:03] As symbolism, but it was, it was kind of difficult to do that and reconcile that with the Christian Bible, which is still believed by Mormons. So I, I, it kind of was just like a really big timeline puzzle in addition to just being puzzling, because I was used to, again, reading and Interpreting these stories is kind of symbolic. And I know obviously there are Christians who, you know, take the Bible literally, but that just hadn't been the way that I was taught to read texts like that.
John Dehlin [01:34:34] Would. Would you have even been sensitive to the narrative that it was written for Jews to bring Jews back to Christ? That it was claiming that Native Americans were Jews? Would that have even been in your.
KB Olsen [01:34:48] Yeah, that interested me
John Dehlin [01:34:51] as a Jew.
KB Olsen [01:34:53] Yeah, I think as a Jew at that. That was around the time that I. I went on Birthright. So I would do a trip, the free trip to Israel.
John Dehlin [01:35:02] Oh.
KB Olsen [01:35:04] And it's interesting because now I don't even know if it's going on now, but it's basically like a indoctrination trip to build this personal and political connection between American Jews and Israel.
John Dehlin [01:35:17] So is that where you work on kibbutz?
KB Olsen [01:35:20] No, that's sort of like another level. This is just like a week trip.
John Dehlin [01:35:22] Who funds it? You said it's a free trip.
KB Olsen [01:35:24] Yeah, this Jewish billionaire. I forget who. Exactly.
John Dehlin [01:35:28] So there's a Jewish billionaire that funds.
KB Olsen [01:35:31] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:35:32] One week trips.
Margi Dehlin [01:35:33] Yes.
KB Olsen [01:35:33] To Israel for.
John Dehlin [01:35:35] For people who are. For American and you just apply for it and then. And then all expenses paid kind of thing.
Margi Dehlin [01:35:41] And you got it.
KB Olsen [01:35:41] Yes.
Margi Dehlin [01:35:42] You applied and got it.
KB Olsen [01:35:43] So I was in a narrow window where being half Jewish, I didn't know this is a thing was okay. That's not the case anymore. There's like the age limits have shifted. It's been like, I. And again, I have no idea if they're still doing it right now.
John Dehlin [01:35:58] It's called Birthright.
Birthright, Jewish Identity, and Religious Studies
KB Olsen [01:35:59] Birthright, yeah.
John Dehlin [01:36:00] You did that when? What year?
KB Olsen [01:36:04] Around my senior year of college. So 2009.
John Dehlin [01:36:07] Now was this trying to investigate Judaism for yourself or.
KB Olsen [01:36:12] I mean, I was sort of throughout college. I mean, New York is such a Jewish town. And so I felt very much like, I mean, I was around so many Jewish people and so I loved participating and I met a lot more like secular Jewish people. And so I was curious. But I do think it became this point of interest around the time that I went on Birthright. And for me, I think that more so than like identifying. It's really fascinating. My other roommate at the time, we were meant to go on Birthright together. And her stepfather was a Middle Eastern studies professor at Columbia and, you know, an anti Zionist.
KB Olsen [01:37:11] So I kind of like was also learning with that perspective. But then that contrasted with, you know, my dad's perspective. And at the time there were like ground troops in Gaza and my roommate didn't go on the trip. So I went alone. My dad was like, you're still going, like, and that was kind of the first time. I was like, wow, you're seemingly very into this. Like, you, I guess you really feel this connection to Israel. Like, what is that? That was like, my first time questioning. But I think because my trip kicked off with that conflict and trying to understand what felt like two sides at the time, I don't, you know, I, I, I don't think I got, like, fully indoctrinated in the way that maybe I would have had I gone without that.
Margi Dehlin [01:38:13] Yeah.
KB Olsen [01:38:13] Backstory. But I definitely came back and I was like, okay, I'm Jewish. That means something. And why did it not mean something to, like, my dad, for example?
John Dehlin [01:38:27] Did you ever get to ask him why he was so into you going back to Israel when he didn't raise you to be into it, so to speak?
KB Olsen [01:38:34] Yeah, I mean, we've talked about probably, like, one of our most productive conversations was me sort of like, recontextual or contextualizing for him, like, my anti Zionist beliefs and trying to share how, like, for my generation, our anchor point, like, how heavy that anchor point to, like, post World War II policy is and just what we've witnessed since that is impossible to ignore. Blah, blah, different subject matter. But yeah, I asked him about it. I think it was like a political, again, like, American identity, Jewish identity thing, but not like, spiritual.
John Dehlin [01:39:17] Interesting. Okay. Okay. So. So you went on birthright your senior year of college, and that probably deepened your interest in religion generally?
KB Olsen [01:39:31] Yes. Yeah, it definitely did. I mean, by the end of college, I definitely was like, should I have been a religious studies major? Like, I knew I was so passionate, but I didn't have, like, any cons, any idea of what I could have done with that. And again, I didn't feel I had, like, a right or connection to, like, speak to it or, like, contextualize any of these stories or anything.
John Dehlin [01:39:57] So you were doing journalism and art history, thinking that that would lead where with your career,
KB Olsen [01:40:05] wanted to work at a magazine. You know, all the, like, early aughts movies where women are the protagonists. They're, like, trying to work at a magazine. That was it. And I was like, okay. Like, I'm, I guess that's the ideal version of a woman person. So I'm gonna do that and, like, bring glory to my family. And, like, I was good at writing and, like, so honestly. Yeah, that was, that was the, the thought process.
John Dehlin [01:40:38] Okay.
KB Olsen [01:40:39] And I, and I did that. So.
John Dehlin [01:40:41] So out of college, you landed what
KB Olsen [01:40:43] so out of college, I started a fashion blog. I randomly moved to New Orleans for a little bit. That was a little side plot. And I'd been doing a lot of interning, working retail. And then my first real job was as an assistant at Vogue. So through a friend, I'd heard that Anna Winter was looking for an assistant, like, true. Devil Wears Prada fashion. And I cobbled together my resume. I'd, like, interned for this blogger, this artorialist.
Margi Dehlin [01:41:22] I'd.
KB Olsen [01:41:24] You know, I had the fashion blog. I was, like, dumpster diving. I'd written this fashion blog from the perspective of, like, an expatriate because I was in Louisiana. And it was like. I don't know. It was some narrative in my mind. So here I am, like, typing that up about talking about, like, finding thrifting clothes, like, writing fashion reviews, like a fake authority. And then a few months later, my blog was, like, printed out on the managing editor of Vogue's desk. And she was like, you're creative, huh? I was like, oh, my gosh.
Margi Dehlin [01:41:59] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:41:59] So, I mean, there's no. Probably no bigger fashion pinnacle than Vogue magazine.
KB Olsen [01:42:04] Yeah, I really got there.
John Dehlin [01:42:05] Madonna sings a song called Vogue. That's.
Margi Dehlin [01:42:07] Yes.
KB Olsen [01:42:08] That's a different but yes.
Margi Dehlin [01:42:11] Not referring to the magazine, but yes.
KB Olsen [01:42:14] Yeah, no, that was. That felt really intense. And. But I didn't get that job initially. And then I was brought back into Interview to be an assistant to who was ultimately my boss. So I started working at Vogue in 2010.
John Dehlin [01:42:33] Okay.
KB Olsen [01:42:34] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:42:35] And there's a bit of a Mormon angle to that, right? Your time there.
KB Olsen [01:42:38] Yes. So while I was there, my boss handled a lot of sittings for, like, politicians, but also, like, theater, you know, some of these less, like, fashion or celebrity people. And so one of the sittings are, like, photo shoots. So she was styling, deciding what people were going to wear for these photo shoots. And one of them was actually Trey Parker and Matt Stone for the Book of Mormon. But this was ahead of the musical coming out.
KB Olsen [01:43:16] So I was on set with them. We shot them. Annie Lebowitz shot them at me at a Broadway theater. And I. I remember it just being this, like, really interesting decision process to witness. Granted, like, I. I was an assistant, a lowly assistant, so I didn't hear any of the conversations going on about the decision process. I know that the writer for the piece, the theater critic for Vogue, he had seen a, Like, a reading, a staged reading of the musical.
KB Olsen [01:43:56] I don't know, like, to what extent it was produced, but essentially it was before the musical had even come Out. No one had seen it publicly yet. And I remember, you know, in talking about the styling, it was like, are they going to agree to look handsome? You know, like, are they going to wear a proper. Because they were known for, like, taking mushrooms and, like, showing up on a red carpet in dresses or something. Like, it was sort of like, how serious are these guys? And so, yeah, I was on set with them hearing about the Book of Mormon musical.
John Dehlin [01:44:29] This is 2011 ish.
KB Olsen [01:44:31] Before it came out. And that was so exciting to me. Like, I had been, you know, I was, like, on set with Elizabeth Warren, with, like, Kristen Gillibrand, all these, like, fascinating women politicians. And I'm dishonored to say I was, like, so stoked about this Book of Mormon musical. Like, I don't even like musicals. Like, I'm not a musical theater girly. But that was really, really exciting. And so I ended up buying tickets for, like, the week it came out for my whole family. Like, in my mind, this was going to be, I don't know, some, like, beautiful thing we went to together. And my salary was literally, like, $24,000. So this was really expensive. This is, like. This is 30 of my.
Margi Dehlin [01:45:17] All of you is on me. Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:45:19] Like, your parents and your two siblings, you flew them out to New York.
KB Olsen [01:45:23] They took the. They drove, probably. But I paid for the tickets.
The Book of Mormon Musical and Its Impact
Margi Dehlin [01:45:26] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:45:26] To see the Book of War musical on opening week.
KB Olsen [01:45:29] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:45:30] And this is total. Just random. But Lori Goodstein, who is the religion writer for the New York Times. Yeah, she flew me out, really. To see the Book of Mormon on opening weekend.
KB Olsen [01:45:39] Wow. Maybe we were there.
John Dehlin [01:45:40] So we might have been there.
KB Olsen [01:45:41] Maybe so. I can't remember exactly when I saw it, but.
John Dehlin [01:45:43] And then she did a little piece on the Book of Mormon musical and got my reaction.
KB Olsen [01:45:47] Oh, cool. I need to go back and. And dig that up.
John Dehlin [01:45:50] Just random.
KB Olsen [01:45:50] Yeah. I only read the Vogue story, but I felt, like, so proud to know, and I thought it was great. You know, I thought it was really funny.
John Dehlin [01:45:56] And were you part of the Vogue story then, or.
KB Olsen [01:45:58] Yeah, I was on set as an assistant.
John Dehlin [01:46:00] Okay.
KB Olsen [01:46:00] So I was basically, like, rolling racks, like, putting things in garment bags, helping out, doing runs of things as needed. So I wasn't. I was there.
John Dehlin [01:46:11] So they would have written about the fashion of the Book of Moral Music?
KB Olsen [01:46:15] No, no, they would cover. They covered, you know, cultural happenings, like, things that were deemed worthy of Vogue coverage. Got it. And this was one that I think there was a discussion of, like, well, all they knew about was, like, Team America or whatever. That, like, horrible puppet movie that the south park guys had made. So. Yeah, I thought it was, like, very interesting, the decision process to include it and the enthusiasm that the theater critic had for it.
Margi Dehlin [01:46:45] Yeah.
KB Olsen [01:46:46] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:46:46] What'd you think of the musical?
KB Olsen [01:46:48] I loved it. I mean, I've only seen it that one time. I don't think I had a lot of understanding of, like, the mission experience at that point. So when I saw it, I didn't understand a lot of the context other than, like, yeah, these young people really want to go on their mission and, like, it's great for them. So I've since, like, learned a lot about the reality of those experiences and. But I loved it. It was very funny. I thought I was, like, blown away by just how they handled the subject matter and created a narrative out of it.
Margi Dehlin [01:47:30] Yeah.
KB Olsen [01:47:31] And then even that, like, some of. I don't know, I just wished I could, like, kind of hear them discuss, like, what to make into songs and. I don't know, I thought they did a good job. What did you think about it?
John Dehlin [01:47:42] I was ecstatic. I thought they nailed. I mean, they didn't nail every aspect of Mormon history and culture, but they nailed for me so many themes. I'd served my mission in Guatemala, so doing a mission to a totally unsafe developing country. I have pictures of me with machine guns where, you know, because there was a coup d' etat in Guatemala when I was there with, like, tanks going down the street. Like, we were fundamentally not safe, you know, but also the. I guess I wouldn't have said it this way, but the colonization aspects of missionary work.
KB Olsen [01:48:18] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:48:18] But then all the questions about literality of scripture and the Joseph Smith Book of Mormon golden Plates narrative. But then even at the end, it loops back to, like, maybe there's value in metaphor in scripture. Like.
KB Olsen [01:48:30] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:48:30] And even the kind portrayals of Mormons as, you know, even good guys in the end, too, so to speak. All of that just. It felt like, wow. I feel really seen.
KB Olsen [01:48:39] Yeah. It's sort of like the futility of the mission, but then there was this incredible hope in the story of just the human connection. So, like, it's not this vacant, meaningless experience. There's, like, something to be gleaned. But obviously there was embedded criticism that, again, I don't think I was fully privy to.
John Dehlin [01:49:05] Also, even as an ex Mormon now who's excommunicated from the church, you know, this is just sidetracked. But just a couple months ago, a woman from Uganda reached out to me and she had converted to the church. Like 10 years ago. And at some point has worked for the church and. But. But recently has lost her faith, but she still works for the church, so she can't talk about it. And I asked her flat out, are you like, okay, you converted the church, now you don't believe it anymore. You work for the church, you feel trapped because you don't believe, but it's your job. Do you regret having ever been baptized?
John Dehlin [01:49:46] And she's like, oh, my gosh. Being baptized transformed my life in a million good ways. I'm so glad I was baptized. Even though now I really want to leave it. But like, I can't say Mormon missionaries don't help people in the developed world find a community and get an education and I think and lift themselves up
KB Olsen [01:50:05] the scaffolding of belief and purpose. All of that has incredible value. Otherwise we wouldn't have religion. Right. Like, yeah, I, you know, I think that's part of the interest where it's not just like villainized for me. I'm always, always curious because I know how many good people believe that this is the channel through which you can do good in the world. But yeah.
John Dehlin [01:50:34] Yeah. So I even felt they nailed that.
KB Olsen [01:50:37] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:50:38] Because the whole Salta Lake city and the shining city on the hill, and it gives me hope and a promise of a better life when my life kind of really sucks right now. I just felt like they nailed. It's bizarrely, they nailed so much.
Margi Dehlin [01:50:52] They really did.
KB Olsen [01:50:53] It was fascinating. I mean, I thought they were geniuses after.
John Dehlin [01:50:56] It was funny and it was entertaining.
KB Olsen [01:50:58] Yeah. And then I went back and I think there's like a documentary about how they produce episodes in the course of six days. And I think as a writer, as a storyteller, I was just like, wow, for a minute I was like, how do I, like, work for South Park?
John Dehlin [01:51:13] Yeah.
KB Olsen [01:51:13] Like, I, I wanted to find like, ways to explore those questions through humor. So, yeah, that, that was like, very profound. And I think after watching that, I was like, okay, so now there's this like wider consciousness of Mormonism. Like, maybe I will take a trip, interview someone. I don't know. I should have, I should have interviewed you, actually. That would have been provoked. Provoke, yes.
John Dehlin [01:51:45] And by 2012, Mitt Romney was the Republican.
KB Olsen [01:51:49] Correct. That was when I went freelance. I wasn't that great, like in the office, but I got a contract to continue to be a writer at Vogue.
John Dehlin [01:51:58] You didn't enjoy staying full time office employee for Vogue? Was it your thing?
KB Olsen [01:52:03] No. And I think I just like, was really ambitious and wanted to primarily be a writer. And then my boss left the magazine. Who. She was kind of my mentor, and the person who came in was very close to my age. I actually formed a wonderful friendship with her. We're still friends to this day, but I think at the time, it was just sort of awkward to be, like, the exact same age as my boss. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, that was that. Then I started working from home and freelancing and continuing at night to just, like, read about Mormons on the Internet.
Discovering Mormon Stories Podcast
John Dehlin [01:52:46] Do you remember when you first heard about Mormon stories and watched your first episode?
KB Olsen [01:52:50] I can't remember when I watched my first episode, but I heard about it early on because I studied journalism, and the head of the journalism department, my orientation was like, there are these things called blogs. Think about writing one could be fun. And by the time I graduated, it was like, you have to know how to write for the Internet. Like, so much had changed so quickly. And so I found Mormon Stories because it was such an early podcast, and I was curious, like, what that medium was, and I had friends who were interested in pursuing radio. And because I was just always looking up Mormon stuff, I found it, and I can't remember, like, what episode I listened to first, but it was probably in. It was definitely, like, you know, there wasn't, like, a. It was on the website. There wasn't, like, a hosting place to listen.
John Dehlin [01:53:41] It's probably audio only at that point.
KB Olsen [01:53:43] Yeah. Oh, yeah, Definitely.
John Dehlin [01:53:44] Yeah.
KB Olsen [01:53:47] And then I kind of came back to listening regularly. I can't pinpoint maybe, like, around 2012, somewhere in 2012, 2015,
John Dehlin [01:54:02] would you have heard about my excommunication or the Ordain Women movement or any of that? Weirdly, it was covered in the New York Times, but most Mormons have never. Still have no idea it ever happened.
KB Olsen [01:54:12] Yeah, I did know that it happened. Again, I can't remember if it was, like, from hearing you talk about it on the podcast or if I heard about it outside, but I remember, like, catching up on your story at some point.
KB Olsen [01:54:30] Maybe, like, 2016. Like, I feel like I was, like, feeling kind of depressed, so consuming more and more content. And I remember around that time, like, putting together the pieces actively of, like, who you were and your excommunication and. And what that meant, and just sort of the.
KB Olsen [01:54:56] That it didn't make sense. You know, the criminal Mormons who were criminals who had not been excommunicated and then you, who I respected so much as a journalist, were. And I thought that that injustice was just, like, for me at that Time, just a really fascinating way of silencing a journalist. And the concept of like punishment for storytelling and interviewing, that was a really heartbreaking concept to me. I mean, of course to you, to listeners, but I thought that was a tragedy. But it made me even more interested in what you were doing and the project of it. And I think the idea of sort of a slow burn approach to storytelling and collecting for some future archive, that really fascinated me too, especially as a journalist in the Internet era, where it was the value of the buzzfeed Listicle.
KB Olsen [01:55:57] Things needed to be quick and we were reacting to things in real time. It felt extremely fast, faster than I expected from traditional journalism. So there was just such a huge contrast between what I was being asked to do in my work and then what you are embarking to do.
KB Olsen [01:56:15] And I liked that. So then I started listening. And I love interviewing people as well. And I think now, since then, I've just enjoyed seeing your evolution as an interviewer. Like your learning process through talking to so many different people, through understanding your own hurt and pain and just the ways that I think you sort of have open hands for people's pain. But then it also is so palpable what you glean from it and then apply to the next round of questions. So I just had admiration of your journalistic prowess, I think.
John Dehlin [01:57:00] Has it been a broad interest in lots of high demand religions? Have you gone as deep in any other religious traditions as you have Mormonism?
KB Olsen [01:57:08] Not as deep. I am interested in cults in general. Like, I watch all the documentaries.
John Dehlin [01:57:13] Wait, did you just call us a cult? I just want to make sure I understand.
KB Olsen [01:57:16] I said cults in general.
John Dehlin [01:57:17] First we're dumb, now we're a cult.
KB Olsen [01:57:19] John, you're coming on for my role on the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives panel. Don't turn the audience against me. Okay, let me, let me cut you
Margi Dehlin [01:57:37] a little support here.
KB Olsen [01:57:40] No, but I think because I was interested in cults, the question those other that you grapple with. Yeah, let's talk about who brought it up. The question of what is a cult? And I think our collective, like, process of understanding that and the application of, you know, the bite model to all these different things in daily life.
John Dehlin [01:58:03] Yeah, I'm sorry.
KB Olsen [01:58:05] You know, you could say Vogue is a cult. Like there's a lot of things that are cults.
Margi Dehlin [01:58:09] Right?
John Dehlin [01:58:10] You said New York's a cult.
KB Olsen [01:58:12] I don't know. It's not. Not like. Anyway, guys, I don't mean it. Okay?
John Dehlin [01:58:17] No, it's good.
KB Olsen [01:58:18] No, but I, I did. I Did research, you know, name a cult. Like Scientology. Yeah, yeah, Nexium. I. Nexium. Of course, I know all about that, but I don't, I don't think. Yeah, I, I mean, I read Going Clear. So I did read that entire book and, and I have read some like ex Scientologist books and the Nexium memoirs and listened to the podcasts about that. I've done deep dives, but nothing as far as I have with the Mormon Church lds.
John Dehlin [01:59:00] So where are your favorites?
KB Olsen [01:59:02] You're my favorite.
John Dehlin [01:59:04] So for me, one of the funnest things to do is to get outsider takes on Mormonism. So I've probably got a thousand questions I could ask. So can we jump in and just. And hear your views on various things?
Margi Dehlin [01:59:19] A little lightning round?
KB Olsen [01:59:20] Yeah, let's do it.
Comparing Jewish and Mormon Approaches to Scripture
John Dehlin [01:59:21] So I often say that most modern Jews don't view the Old Testament as historical, that they wouldn't even necessarily believe that Moses existed, even though he's technically the founder of their religion, but definitely not Abraham. And they definitely wouldn't necessarily view those Old Testament stories as historical. Can you validate whether that's true or not based on your experience?
KB Olsen [01:59:48] That's true. In my experience though granted, most of my experience has been with reform or conservative Jews.
John Dehlin [01:59:58] But isn't that the predominant strain of Judaism in the United States?
KB Olsen [02:00:01] Yes. So yes, that's my experience is that these stories are extremely sacred metaphors. They contain ancient wisdom and the context is spiritual and the symbolism is everlasting. And it's a story that is an archetype that's forever relevant and becomes the story of all of us in seeking our personal freedom, what have you.
John Dehlin [02:00:34] So, yes, and so if I were to interview someone raised reformed Jew and I said, what about Noah? Did Noah put 2 of all animals in an ark and the. The earth was flooded, they would say what? Likely,
KB Olsen [02:00:52] I imagine they would say no.
John Dehlin [02:00:56] Or Adam and Eve were the first humans on the planet.
KB Olsen [02:00:58] No, that's not there isn't like a literal belief.
John Dehlin [02:01:04] And what would they say to this idea that Jews are the chosen people? That's racist. Like, well, you know, do you really believe the Jews are the chosen people? They would say what?
KB Olsen [02:01:14] Some people would say yes and some people would say no, but that it's a marvel how Jews have preserved their practices, rituals and that, you know, in, in choosing Judaism, this has been the most. In one of the most enduring cultures on earth. So.
John Dehlin [02:01:43] And to, to take a Mormon slant, if we were to say why was Abraham and Jacob slash Israel slash David slash Solomon Why were they all polygamous? Like, was that of God? And how did Jews view polygamy?
KB Olsen [02:01:57] Gosh, I don't actually know.
John Dehlin [02:01:59] That's fine. Have you thought about that? That y' all started this polygamy thing?
KB Olsen [02:02:04] Wow, what an accusation.
John Dehlin [02:02:07] I say that.
KB Olsen [02:02:08] I mean, it's so funny, right? Because I. I definitely think that our idea of the ancients, even though, like, we don't even know that cognitively, they were, like, so different than us. Right. But the way that it's framed is that these were ancient times in an ancient context. And. And, yeah, fine. Okay. Jews invented polygamy. Like, that's a man problem. I'm fine to blame them. Men applied it. The Mormon men applied it. This is a you guys thing that you want to keep around.
John Dehlin [02:02:43] And it wouldn't have been Jews. It would have been.
KB Olsen [02:02:45] I mean, it would have been all men.
John Dehlin [02:02:46] It would have been just.
KB Olsen [02:02:47] It's like, not a novel idea.
John Dehlin [02:02:49] What about the. How would Jews maybe look at. Or how. Have you looked at the genocide in the Old Testament? God, sort of divine, divinely sanctioned genocide.
KB Olsen [02:03:02] I mean, I think that that's something that has kept me from having any kind of, like, spiritual connection to God, like God the punisher, this ultimate authority whom we're all appealing to and who, like, applies judgment. That's never made sense to me. And again, like, I mean, I converted to Judaism. I don't know if I've said that yet.
John Dehlin [02:03:33] Do you want to talk about that for a second?
KB Olsen [02:03:34] Sure.
John Dehlin [02:03:35] And what made you interested in that?
Margi Dehlin [02:03:37] Yeah, I.
KB Olsen [02:03:38] Again, I think it was this. This was 2010. I was working as an assistant at Vogue, and early in the mornings, I would go, like, meet with the rabbi and do lessons.
John Dehlin [02:03:47] A Reform synagogue or Conservative synagogue.
KB Olsen [02:03:50] Actually conservative, but it was also, like, the closest one to my house. You know, it's like, I wish I had this, like, profound reason, but I think it was just, like, part of the search. And then I. I tell us the
John Dehlin [02:04:05] difference really quickly between Hasidic or ultra Orthodox.
Margi Dehlin [02:04:09] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:04:10] Conservative. And then Reform, if you don't mind. Like, Lieberman was conservative, as I understand it.
KB Olsen [02:04:16] Correct. Yeah. I think it's in, like, how much you want to opt into. Basically, it's like, the easiest way to put it. Like, there's all of these rituals, practices that you can do to please God effectively and also just, like, express the goodness of our humanity. And Orthodox Jews do the most of those things. Things like keeping kosher women covering their hair, wearing wigs.
Margi Dehlin [02:04:48] Yeah.
KB Olsen [02:04:49] Or whatever way. Keeping Shabbat. And then for conservative, it's like, maybe you keep kosher, but, you know the ideas of, like, modest dress, maybe you wear a kippah, maybe not.
John Dehlin [02:05:05] What's that?
KB Olsen [02:05:05] The yarmulke.
John Dehlin [02:05:07] Okay.
KB Olsen [02:05:08] And then with secular Judaism, like, it might even be a more. Or Reform Judaism. It might even be more of, like, a humanist slant, as you mentioned. It's like, there's an option to be secular and, like, engaging in the rituals.
John Dehlin [02:05:22] I think there could be a lesbian atheist rabbi in Reform Judaism.
KB Olsen [02:05:28] Yeah. So I think it's just, like, how much you're gonna do.
John Dehlin [02:05:32] Yeah,
Margi Dehlin [02:05:34] yeah.
John Dehlin [02:05:35] So conservative. That's a conservative rabbi working for Vogue. That's.
KB Olsen [02:05:39] I know that's weird. I don't. I.
Margi Dehlin [02:05:44] It's.
KB Olsen [02:05:44] It's very strange.
John Dehlin [02:05:46] Did you think of it as strange at the time?
KB Olsen [02:05:49] I. Well, I was dating a man at the time,
John Dehlin [02:05:55] who.
KB Olsen [02:05:56] So, like, I. I guess it was like I. I felt like I wanted to have a Jewish life, and maybe part of that was in reconciling with, like, compulsory heteronormativity. I was like, well, if. If this is what the options are, if this is how you lead a life, like, I think based on my experiences, like, I'd prefer to. To do it this way.
John Dehlin [02:06:20] Can I back up for just one second?
Margi Dehlin [02:06:22] Interesting.
John Dehlin [02:06:22] So, like, you. You go to New York, you graduate from nyu, you get a job with Vogue, like, you're living what many people would say is, like, the pinnacle of, I don't know, modern intellectual living. Right.
KB Olsen [02:06:38] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:06:38] So you would think, okay, she's arrived, she's made it.
KB Olsen [02:06:41] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:06:41] She has liberal sensibilities.
KB Olsen [02:06:43] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:06:43] So, like, this is her ticket for, like, liberal ecstasy. And yet you're not.
KB Olsen [02:06:49] Did you talk to my dad?
Margi Dehlin [02:06:49] No.
John Dehlin [02:06:52] And yet you're. You must have been filling a feeling, a hole or incomplete or not happier fulfilled if, number one, you're considering marrying a man, and number two, you're seeking out religion. Can you tell us emotionally, psychologically, what's going on?
KB Olsen [02:07:11] I mean, I think that I felt very emotionally separate from my family of origin. And I was like, well, either there's something wrong with me or, like, I just didn't understand what seemed to be the life that they chose and, like, the logic of. Of those decisions and what, you know, what was, like, acceptable behavior and love from what I could discern from them. And so I think I was confused, honestly, but not happy.
John Dehlin [02:07:48] I mean, it's hard to be cut off from your family.
KB Olsen [02:07:51] Well, I wasn't in no contact with them at the time.
John Dehlin [02:07:54] I am, let's just say, disconnected.
KB Olsen [02:07:56] Yeah, there was a disconnect, and I think I was trying to, you know, I particularly felt a disconnect from my mom, and that had been for a really, really long time. But I still, in my mind, felt that, you know, my dad was kind of this separate entity. Right. And now understanding more of, like, family dynamics. I've since credited him where credit is due, let's say. But, yeah, so I was like, okay, like, I take after my dad. Like, I'm just of this other side. So I think part of it was maybe distancing from my mom as well, and trying to, like, feel that that didn't matter, that we did not have that connection, which is pretty fundamental.
Margi Dehlin [02:08:45] Yeah.
KB Olsen [02:08:45] So I was seeking that, I think. I think, part of it, too. Again, like, I. I wanted to, like, be established as a New Yorker. And so, like, claiming my Jewish identity was a bit part of that. And as I said before, like, it did feel kind of tragic to me that after thousands of years of being Jewish, like, my generation was going to be the one that just wasn't anymore. Like, to me, I was like, what did we have? Did we gather and talk about this? Like, it just felt sort of so passive that I wanted to be active and just see what that felt like as a contrast.
KB Olsen [02:09:24] And so in that way, like, the birthright might have gotten to me where it's like, my. I didn't feel this, like, connection to Israel as a state, but I definitely felt like, you know, I wanted to be able to look at this and understand the rituals that I'd witnessed. You know, I would be sitting at Passover and, like, not really know. Or when I would attend Friends Bar Bat Mitzvahs, for example, I would be like, I don't know what they're talking about. Like.
KB Olsen [02:09:54] And, yeah, I. It was also just like, a pleasant sensory experience. That sounds insane, but I was living on Irving Place in Manhattan, which is, like, just south of Gramercy park, and this synagogue is on Gramercy Park. So I would, like, take this early morning walk and, like, learn about the Torah. And I don't know, it just interested me.
Margi Dehlin [02:10:18] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:10:18] And then were you seeking a tribe, like, a community at all, or. Not so much.
KB Olsen [02:10:22] It's so funny. Like, I think that's what I wanted, but I didn't know how to implement it. So, like, I did not get involved in, like, the community of that synagogue whatsoever. My boyfriend at the time wasn't attending.
John Dehlin [02:10:33] Was he Jewish?
KB Olsen [02:10:34] Yes. And funnily enough, his mom, like, didn't accept me. She didn't think I was Jewish enough. Yeah. And. And even when I converted, she was like, oh, well, women will, like, go back on their conversion, you know, from her perspective, which. Well, no, I didn't. I married it. My wife is Jewish, actually, so I. It's so funny.
Margi Dehlin [02:10:54] He texts.
KB Olsen [02:10:54] Texted me, like, we're not really in touch, but he texted me, like, a congrats, and impulsively I just texted back. I was like, you can tell your mom that I followed through because I married a Jew. Let the record show I was like,
Margi Dehlin [02:11:06] wow, I'm gonna set this straight.
John Dehlin [02:11:09] That's. That's interesting.
KB Olsen [02:11:10] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:11:11] So.
KB Olsen [02:11:12] So it. And then I really liked doing the mikvah ritual again. It felt sort of like, okay, this ritual, right?
Margi Dehlin [02:11:19] It's.
KB Olsen [02:11:20] Yeah, it's like a. It's not a baptism, but, like, you submerge in water and, like, you know, come up in your. Jewish. Jewish women, though, go to the mikvah monthly. Orthodox Jewish women.
John Dehlin [02:11:33] We had Tova Mirvas on Mormon stories. You know who that is? She wrote a book called the Book of Separation. She left fundamentalist Orthodox Judaism.
KB Olsen [02:11:43] Yes. Okay. I do know she talked about having
John Dehlin [02:11:45] to take her underwear to the rabbi to see whether her period.
KB Olsen [02:11:50] Yeah, there's some dark. There's some dark, dark stuff.
John Dehlin [02:11:53] I mean, that's why I bring it up.
KB Olsen [02:11:55] Yeah. That's, like, how you know that you're clean enough to be purified.
John Dehlin [02:12:00] Yeah.
KB Olsen [02:12:01] Like, none of that's good stuff. I knew that. Like, you know, I. I didn't look at it as, oh, I need to be made pure.
John Dehlin [02:12:08] I'm guessing conservatives don't.
KB Olsen [02:12:10] No, no, no, no. Absolutely not.
John Dehlin [02:12:12] Women don't check their underwear.
KB Olsen [02:12:13] No. That's specific. Not even. I don't even think, you know, modern Orthodox wouldn't either. So I, like. I don't know. That was interesting. Doing another ritual bath, having been baptized, I just. I saw it as, like, getting the information more than anything.
John Dehlin [02:12:31] But you're seeking at that point.
KB Olsen [02:12:34] I was seeking.
Margi Dehlin [02:12:35] Yeah. And I kind of, like. I do think it's interesting and natural. Like, to me, it makes a lot of sense, actually, with. Because you at this point, have studied Mormonism, like, quite a bit, and then you've had these moments of. Of exposure to your own, you know, beginnings and to your own, I don't know, ancestors and. And that. But, like, it seems like, till this point, to me, it feels like very natural to your identity forming to kind of go back and be like, wait, like, what did I miss here? What. Actually, does it mean that my. Because I'm not sure I have a context for this part of myself through growing up. And yet I've done this with Mormonism. How about I, like, actually do it for myself?
KB Olsen [02:13:28] Definitely. I mean, I think I felt that my parents hadn't done the work, hadn't decided that they'd sort of been passive in their choices, in their beliefs. And that was hurtful to me, you know, And I think especially since I was someone prone to intellectualizing, I kind of took that pain and I was like, well, like, let me see what, what the options are here. Or if I could have known something, if there's some piece of information that I can understand, then I'll be able to choose to, like, form a life to. It's not that I was, like, seeking God. I just, like, wanted to know. I wanted to, like, choose something that's
Margi Dehlin [02:14:17] right and almost see, like, let me just see if there are any pieces of this that could build a scaffolding for me in a pearl life.
KB Olsen [02:14:27] Curious. You know, like, I think it is interesting simultaneously working at Vogue, like, that was my religion kind of at the time. Like, I thought that being the. In this, like, ivory tower of culture, being in proximity to those who are, like, making decisions about what's beautiful, you know, what's worthy of examination, like what, what everyone else should aspire to. To me, that. That was like, spiritual, but it wasn't fulfilling, you know, like, it was this huge achievement of proximity. So, yeah, it was all. It was all just like, gathering information.
John Dehlin [02:15:16] Well, totally. Just because I like to make connections. Just this last weekend, an ex Mormon woman named Lauren Jackson, who's a New York Times religion writer.
KB Olsen [02:15:26] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:15:26] She published an article called Americans Haven't Found a Satisfying Alternative to Religion.
KB Olsen [02:15:32] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:15:32] Is it any wonder the country is revisiting faith? And even though your timeline.
KB Olsen [02:15:37] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:15:38] 2010, 2011 is 15 years prior to this, it reflects what I think all ex Mormons and ex religious people should sort of just be aware of. You raise secular kids with no religion, there's at least a decent probability that they will at some point long for either spirituality or community and seek some sort at least investigate, if not end up joining some sort of either religious tradition or even worse, for some potentially some dangerous cult or sort of cult substitute.
KB Olsen [02:16:18] I think that we all have the question of worthiness.
John Dehlin [02:16:21] Yeah.
KB Olsen [02:16:22] And we want an answer to that question.
John Dehlin [02:16:24] You didn't say meaning worthy, worthiness, morality. You said worthiness.
KB Olsen [02:16:28] Yeah. I mean, because to me, there are other sources of morality. Right. And even meaning, you know, like, I did have so much Meaning in literature, in poetry. I've, you know, come to find I had meaning in fashion, expression. It really, really was meaningful to me and significant. I felt like I constrained, obstructed an entire self that was just like living on the surface of me. And, and that psychologically is something that I think a lot of people do in religion or outside of it. It just, they physically look different, but it's kind of the same.
KB Olsen [02:17:05] The same, like, performance. But yeah, if you don't have parents who can affirm worthiness, you don't have a concept of what makes you worthy from God, from religion. I think that feels more like the question. Like, I don't feel like I had any emotional support, emotional context, val, innate value of my self. I thought I was worthless. And so it wasn't seeking religion. I just wanted to understand what I. What made me worthy because I didn't feel. I didn't feel it.
John Dehlin [02:17:45] And can I just also note, and Margi, I know you want to say something like you using the term worthy is actually. It would have a different meaning in Webster's than how Mormons use the term worthiness. Because Mormons use the term worthiness as have I sinned? Have I been sexually impure? Did I drink alcohol? Did I try drugs? Have I lost my faith? That's like the degree to which you have been stained by sin.
KB Olsen [02:18:12] Yes.
John Dehlin [02:18:12] You're using worthiness as, am I of worth as just a lone individual without a tribe, without an identity? Am I just a meaningless number, a cipher? Or will maybe a religious identity give me value?
KB Olsen [02:18:28] It's like what makes me lovable, right? And I think in the Mormon context, there's so much shame that you end up. One ends up feeling unlovable, right? Because you just cannot achieve the moral perfection necessary to have God's blessing. Not to mention then your eternal life is at stake, which makes every waking second terrifying. I think it sounds like it would be. But yeah, for me, I think it was like a who am I question.
KB Olsen [02:19:02] I mean, it's really tough. I know that there are still people who have converted to religion since 2010, but being of my generation, having access to Reddit, to the Internet, it was going to be pretty hard for me to like, buy into a religion because I saw behind the curtain before I even started looking at the substance of the things, like, so there wasn't going to be a truth to the existence of God and that God was watching me, like I wasn't going to have a still small voice, you know, in any, in any world.
KB Olsen [02:19:39] So I just wanted to know, okay, if there's no God and if seemingly, like, I can't understand that I'm loved by the people that are meant to love me, like, how do I feel actually, like, loved or safe?
Margi Dehlin [02:19:55] For.
John Dehlin [02:19:55] If your parents aren't loving you, are you lovable?
KB Olsen [02:19:58] Right. Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:19:59] And I didn't. I don't mean to say they didn't love you. I mean, if in your mind, your experience.
Margi Dehlin [02:20:04] Your experience.
John Dehlin [02:20:05] Yeah.
KB Olsen [02:20:05] And, like, that has been a huge challenge. Like, it's not that I don't think they intended to or that they wouldn't say that. Like, their utmost priority is family. In fact, I know that they would. But there is this disconnect between the action and connection of love that I think people define sometimes as spirituality. That makes us close, that makes us a family. And I didn't have language for, like, that disconnect that felt so innate, especially between me and my mom. I was just like, why have I never felt of. Of her?
Margi Dehlin [02:20:44] Yeah.
KB Olsen [02:20:45] And why is she so restless and aggressive and. And why couldn't I fix that? And then, you know, it's like, okay, well, then where can I be useful? Where. Where can I find love? And what will that be? And I think part of me also, like, again, being in a heterosexual relationship at the time, we had, like, really strong intellectual companionship. And to me, that was all that there was. I didn't understand. Yeah. I hadn't. I hadn't felt it. Which, you know, I think I've heard a lot of people on Mormon stories describe that sensation of, like, how could I have gone through this first huge part of my life and not have felt love?
KB Olsen [02:21:30] But I had, like, all of these things that it was meant to be or this way that I could prove myself worthy this impossible task. And there's. They are, like, echoing impossible tasks. And, like, that's the way that, like, religion is set forth. Right. It's like giving you an impossible task that's going to consume you for a lifetime. So, yeah, that might be it.
Margi Dehlin [02:21:56] Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. That makes. That makes a lot of sense to me, honestly.
KB Olsen [02:22:01] I mean, I'm realizing it right now as we're talking about it. It's kind of like, yeah, you just
John Dehlin [02:22:06] gave me the aha moment. That the Mormon narrative sucks people in by saying, you're a child of God. He loves you infinitely. You're. You can be a chosen people. You can be a part of God's one true church and have eternal families. It gives you worthiness in that narrative.
KB Olsen [02:22:24] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:22:24] And Then sneakily takes it away with the law of chastity, the atonement, the sin narrative. So it gives it and it takes it away.
KB Olsen [02:22:34] It just didn't click for me that, like, Jesus loved me. Right. Like, I never. I still kind of don't understand when people describe, like, I realized I was, like, unconditionally loved through this concept of the sacrifice of this person, this man. I mean, maybe there. There might be some thing, you know, tied to gender with that, where it's like, I'm meant to sort of, like, find my way to the beauty of this gift that this God gave his son. Like, I'm like, okay, well, who's God's daughter? Like, what are you talking about? I never saw. I never read a story where, like, someone was truly the. The daughter of God. We're just like, as a. As a whole, we're. You're just meant to, like, know that. And I'm like, well, this setup doesn't imply that, like, that's true, that that's love. I don't feel it.
Margi Dehlin [02:23:29] Yeah.
KB Olsen [02:23:31] So it didn't. It didn't work. It didn't click. And also, you know, I think in the early aughts times when I was in churches or witnessing religion and purity in high school, oh, my gosh, people would read books called, like, he's hot, she's hot. And it was like, humility, something. Like there were. It's just like all these phrases and purity rings and. And things in the mix that seemed so insane and, like, never seemed to actually, like, be effective. And I didn't know what the end goal was for society. Still don't, but. Yeah, it's just confusing.
Margi Dehlin [02:24:09] I do think it's interesting as you're talking to kind of reflect on this idea of growing up as a child and having emotional basic needs. Like there. There are needs beyond. Clearly there are needs for shelter, food. Right. Safety. And that emotional safety component too, as well. But I think this idea of feeling seen.
KB Olsen [02:24:36] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:24:37] And feeling known and how sometimes, you know, we. We don't get those needs met.
KB Olsen [02:24:45] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:24:46] In our. Our families of origin for a lot of, you know, reasons. But I think then it creates this pursuit. It can be conscious A lot of times, especially if you're young, it's unconscious of just trying to get the need met. And what I'm hearing from you is in some ways, you know, this being part of trying to get a need met. And in many ways, I'm seeing you, and I'm really curious, but I'll hold off for the Love part, But, like, it's kind of like, what, number one, what do we do when we. We're trying to actually create a blueprint for love? Yeah. Like, we didn't receive one that we actually want to experience.
KB Olsen [02:25:29] Right.
Margi Dehlin [02:25:29] Or. Or duplicate, maybe. And so what it means to actually, as you're living in real time, to try and create your own blueprint for a love that feels nourishing.
KB Olsen [02:25:42] Yes.
Converting to Judaism and Leaving Christianity
John Dehlin [02:25:43] Let's go there. What happened with your boyfriend and with the church, with. With the synagogue, if you want.
Margi Dehlin [02:25:49] Yeah.
KB Olsen [02:25:49] I mean, I converted. I realized I was gay. It just became like I couldn't look away. Suddenly. I had a shelf break moment, I guess you could say.
John Dehlin [02:26:01] What does conversion look like? Mormon conversion is like. Like we joked about earlier. Pray, feel some overwhelming sense of emotion, decide that it's true, and then feel like you're supposed to follow it. What was conversion to Judaism like for you?
KB Olsen [02:26:15] It was answering questions again. It was kind of like a rigorous intellectual exercise. It wasn't like, do you believe in God? You know, from what I recall, if it was. That didn't register. Register. But I don't recall feeling uncomfortable or lying. And I know that I wasn't, like, in it to believe in God.
Margi Dehlin [02:26:37] Right.
KB Olsen [02:26:38] So, yeah, I answered questions with the rabbi, had a conversation, and then went to the mikvah, and you get into the water and you say some Hebrew prayer and you get out. That's it.
John Dehlin [02:26:56] How was it? Was it a sacred experience for you at the time? Did it feel different than you thought it would feel?
KB Olsen [02:27:03] I really, really wanted it to feel sacred or put some punctuation on my Jewish identity, but I think it was actually, like, putting punctuation on my belief that maybe that would answer some question or, like, feel like home or something.
John Dehlin [02:27:21] It didn't.
KB Olsen [02:27:22] No. I got out and I remember, like, my boyfriend gave me a necklace or something, and I was just like, okay. And then it was like the rabbi expected that we would make a donation. This was like an unspoken. That, like, you'd make a donation to the synagogue. And I hadn't thought about that. So I remember I, like, called my dad. I remember my dad had been like, do you want us to, like, come or, like, what? But then, yeah, I had. I, like, asked him to, like, write a check to donate to the synagogue because I hadn't realized that that was part of it. And that was just strange.
John Dehlin [02:27:55] Kind of like a financial quid pro quo A little bit. Yeah.
KB Olsen [02:27:59] I mean, I. Sacramento. I don't know. I thought about it that way.
Margi Dehlin [02:28:03] Yeah.
KB Olsen [02:28:03] Yeah. And So I think that just felt odd. I was like, did I just pay to be told I'm Jewish? Like, again, it wasn't explicit. I think it would have been fine even had I not. I think I just was so afraid of having, like, done something wrong or.
John Dehlin [02:28:23] But you didn't feel flooded with worth?
KB Olsen [02:28:25] No.
John Dehlin [02:28:25] Or value or.
KB Olsen [02:28:26] No. I mean, there's value in knowing, like the rituals and feeling like I could participate. So it was almost like there's potential. But no. Like I still.
John Dehlin [02:28:40] So disappointing.
KB Olsen [02:28:47] No, because I. I don't know that I felt I expected to actually have some kind of like revelatory, you know, earth shattering experience. It was just almost something I felt like, okay, well, I need to do this. I don't have to like defend myself anymore as well. But yeah, I didn't like, continue to go to synagogue. Like, I think I went with my boyfriend to like high holidays. I think I like fasted on Yom Kippur once ever. And then it wasn't. Yeah, just wasn't part of what I was seeking, I guess.
John Dehlin [02:29:29] Mormons calling that going inactive.
KB Olsen [02:29:31] I went inactive. Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:29:36] Yeah.
KB Olsen [02:29:37] And then I realized I was gay. Broke up with my boyfriend. Thought that must be the key, you know, like, and that did clarify a lot in terms of just feeling like, like I didn't quite fit in certain situations or like I didn't understand some emotional levels of like the human experience.
KB Olsen [02:30:04] But I mean, this is sort of a canon event for people, like coming into their queer identity. It's like immediately I got into like a very toxic relationship that I think acted out, you know, because I was actually feeling something with a woman. Yeah, I, I got into a relationship that reflected, repeated some of those family patterns in which I was shamed and unworthy, you know, so that was interesting. You got it. You got to do it. I guess.
KB Olsen [02:30:40] But I don't, I don't know. And then I think I felt self conscious changing my appearance or like looking more gay. Like all of that was a journey. But then being in my mid-20s, I was like, well, I want this journey to be over. Like, I don't want to look like a person having a journey. Like, that's so embarrassing.
Margi Dehlin [02:30:58] And.
KB Olsen [02:31:02] Yeah, and. But all throughout the one sure thread was reading about Mormons on the Internet.
John Dehlin [02:31:12] We're happy to be here for you.
KB Olsen [02:31:13] Yeah, thanks, John. It was, it was all you.
John Dehlin [02:31:17] No, I mean us as a people. I'm speaking for Mormons collectively. We're proud to be happy to be here for you. No, I'm kidding. So going back To Jesus. Thank you for sharing that sensitive, powerful stuff, by the way. So moving from like, your views on Old Testament and Judaism to kind of the presentation of Christ or Christianity. And you talked about how you struggle with the idea that Christ could know you and love you individually and love you unconditionally. That makes sense because, I mean, and this may sound coarse, but like, yeah, Jews don't believe in Jesus at all. So.
KB Olsen [02:31:57] Right.
John Dehlin [02:31:57] The whole narrative of Jesus is that he was Jewish, but he came to improve and upgrade Judaism to the higher law. Yeah.
KB Olsen [02:32:06] It's like Christianity is a Jewish cult. You know, it's like.
John Dehlin [02:32:09] Or a fan fiction, like a derivation, right?
KB Olsen [02:32:11] Fan fiction.
John Dehlin [02:32:12] Yeah, yeah. Like Bible's Jewish fan fiction. Basically.
KB Olsen [02:32:15] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:32:16] Sorry. New Testament is Old Testament fanfiction.
KB Olsen [02:32:18] So I just wasn't primed for it. And. And I think that part of it, like, my parents were not like, authoritative. There wasn't like a punishment structure, really, despite the fact that there was like, aggression. So I don't know. Yeah. In my brain, I just. I couldn't accept Christ into my heart.
John Dehlin [02:32:45] You're saying because your mom was maybe raised Christian representing Christianity, but maybe didn't represent the most.
KB Olsen [02:32:54] Yeah, it wasn't like a right and wrong. Like, it's not like right and wrong were concrete right. To me.
Margi Dehlin [02:33:02] Right.
John Dehlin [02:33:03] Yeah.
KB Olsen [02:33:04] So. And like, I think for. For many people in religion, you learn about right and wrong in the context of that religion.
John Dehlin [02:33:10] Yeah.
KB Olsen [02:33:11] So, yeah, there wasn't for me, like, going to be an authority who had created a book that gave that. I also just had read too many books. I think, like, the variety just made it seeming seem impossible that one text was the one.
John Dehlin [02:33:30] Did you ever think about just the implications of, like, God having his favorite son, but his favorite son needs to be killed and tortured so that he can. And there's a Jewish element to, like, the sacrifice of the lamb or whatever. Like.
KB Olsen [02:33:48] Like Abraham and Isaac.
John Dehlin [02:33:49] Yeah. Like Jesus was the innocent lamb that needed to be sacrificed as an atonement for the rest of mankind.
KB Olsen [02:33:55] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:33:56] Did you ever spend time thinking about, like, your reflections on that necessity of the torturing and killing of Jesus to redeem mankind from their sins? Because that's not Jewish, right? No, that's uniquely Christian.
Margi Dehlin [02:34:12] Right.
KB Olsen [02:34:12] I mean, I think now that seems horrible. Like, why would that be an ask and what does it accomplish and. And what is actually learned? And it's strange to, like, be so grateful for someone's torture and to have that as like, this representation of like, that was done for me, like, to take away my sins. Jesus died on the cross. So then it's like hanging over you, right? Like, oh, my gosh, if I, you know, make a mistake, I'm deflating this incredible sacrifice that not only a person, but like, this divine person made that was meant to, like, wipe away my sins, but I can still sin, but that's me. Then it's just like an endless loop, right? You're just like, what. What would that be for besides to, like, control my behavior?
John Dehlin [02:35:25] It's kind of coercive.
KB Olsen [02:35:26] It's just coercive control. And like, I think having, even outside of religion, a lot of different systems, institutions, people can apply shame, their idea of right and wrong to coerce the kind of behavior they want from you, or confusion, just to create and maintain confusion so that they have control. And that feels like what God has done in that context is like, I'm wielding what you ultimately did. I did this for you. You've made this grave error. You're a born sinner and I let my son die for you. What are you going to do for me? How could you ever repay? How could you ever be worthy from that? Ask. So it's just kind of like held over your head in Christianity again, if this doesn't sound right, it's because I was. I never was a Christian. I don't know.
John Dehlin [02:36:27] What about the idea, you know, Christians often look at Jews as like, they're sitting around waiting for the Messiah to come, but they don't know he actually did. You know what I mean? And. And that, and that Christian Christianity is an upgrade to Judaism as a Jew or as a slapshoe or secular Jew.
KB Olsen [02:36:44] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:36:44] Is that offensive? Is that comical?
KB Olsen [02:36:47] Like, I. They're welcome to think that I just don't care. Like, what. You know what I'm saying? Like, I, it's. It's another chapter of the book. Or not. Like, if you wanna, you know. Yeah, I guess I just am not bothered by it. Like, I don't think, like, the hobbits. And I've never had, like, someone who identified as Christian, like, say that Judaism wasn't enough or something. To me, it's. I don't know, it's all under this, like, umbrella of Western Christian belief. Like, it's all the same. It's kind of in the same bag.
John Dehlin [02:37:37] But it does, it does get a teeny bit dark because I remember talking to other Christians growing up and it's like, Jews killed Jesus.
KB Olsen [02:37:46] Oh, definitely. I heard that for sure. It's just like, wasn't my identity, so. So, like, I didn't feel. And I think I did absorb some of the idea that, like, Jews were superior. Like, it's like, oh, look at. One, just how we've survived. Two, the number of, like, Nobel Prizes, like, all these authors, all your favorite writers, poets. Like, everyone's Jewish. So, you know, Hollywood. Hollywood, yeah. It's all the Jews now. But everything I thought was, like, cool someone Jewish was involved or allowed to participate. So I didn't feel, like, limited. Like, what were Christians gonna, like, keep me from growing up in this era and, like, you know, then in. Even for, like, my dad's generation, it's like, okay, they kept you out of, like, the country club. Like, that's kind of what I hear about.
Margi Dehlin [02:38:40] Or.
KB Olsen [02:38:40] I don't know. I'm sure this is, like, ignorant in many different ways. But again, I think I was just, like, starting from so far out that it was hard for me to take those things to heart despite being so sensitive. I don't know.
Afterlife, Joseph Smith, and Mormon Truth Claims
John Dehlin [02:38:55] What about the Christian teaching that when we die, we resurrect and get to live in heaven forever with our families? My sense is Judaism doesn't have kind of an afterlife like Christians do.
KB Olsen [02:39:08] No, there's us a soul, but no, there isn't, like, this idea of you're with your family in the infinite realm.
John Dehlin [02:39:23] What does the soul do after death in Judaism, as far as you know?
KB Olsen [02:39:28] That's a great question.
John Dehlin [02:39:29] Okay. It sounds like it's not talked about a lot.
KB Olsen [02:39:35] I. I don't know.
John Dehlin [02:39:37] Yeah. All right. So this idea of being with your family in heaven isn't something that ever really came up for you?
KB Olsen [02:39:50] No. Because, like, I didn't feel that with them here. I guess so. Yeah. I don't know. I just, like, was. I'm a sec. I was a secular person, like, regardless of my curiosity. And again, I think it was, like, the inconsistency. Like, my mom would reference heaven or something when it was, like, useful to the processing. And so I just kind of saw it that way as, like, a tool.
John Dehlin [02:40:23] Got it.
KB Olsen [02:40:24] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:40:25] So turning and I asked those questions because Mormonism is kind of based on Christianity, Right?
KB Olsen [02:40:30] But, yeah, of course. I mean, I feel like I'm doing a disservice to the Jewish community by not. But yeah. I just don't know a lot of this because I only took it so far. It just wasn't my actual religion.
John Dehlin [02:40:44] No, it's good. So what do you make of Joseph Smith from what you've learned so far and observed? Lovable, like, scary. Keith Ranieri, Warren Jeffs?
KB Olsen [02:40:57] No, I Don't think. I don't. I don't. I don't get the sense that he was a, like, mastermind and like, evil mastermind in the way that Keith. Someone like Keith Renery was. I definitely think he was trying to, like, do his parents proud in this way. That's really interesting to me.
KB Olsen [02:41:21] I think that, you know, he was so curious, which is like, I think a really. If we're gonna give him, like a good quality. And maybe he just, like, got caught up in a lie. Like, some part of me, when I really try to, like, think of the in flesh person, I just wonder how many steps ahead of himself he was.
KB Olsen [02:41:53] And no one's really had been able to answer that for sure. Right. Like, it seemed like this thing that kept, like, inflating around him because people were so primed for the answer that he offered and believed his story and it matched. It was an amalgamation of so many stories that were sort of floating around. And he put them together in this really cohesive, comprehensive way. And it filled this gap, I think, in what at the time was like, modern life. This distance from maybe religion and awakening and that felt kind of vacant. It's like our something like what the Internet has done for us, you know what I'm saying? It just felt like this really great tool and application to update spirituality for that time. So, you know, he was a guy.
John Dehlin [02:42:52] When you. You mentioned reading the Book of Mormon or trying to. And I think you used the word thick.
KB Olsen [02:42:58] If I said dense.
John Dehlin [02:42:59] Dense. Okay. Yeah. Mormons are prime to think it's the best book ever and literally. And the most spiritual awesome book ever. Not asking you to try and get you to denigrate it.
KB Olsen [02:43:14] Sure.
John Dehlin [02:43:14] But, like, what's just someone who loves literature. Someone who cares about literature.
KB Olsen [02:43:18] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:43:19] Someone who's interested in allegedly sacred text when you read it. Is it like you said it wasn't. What a miracle. How did Joseph Smith create this for you? What. What was the response to the Book of Mormon?
KB Olsen [02:43:32] I think to me it was really palpably many different concepts cobbled together, many different notions of history, spirituality, ethics. It just felt mushed together to me.
John Dehlin [02:43:51] We'll test Isaiah.
KB Olsen [02:43:52] Yeah. All right. It's like all vaguely familiar, but, you know, we just have this entire other leg of history slapped on it. It really felt like defending something retroactively rather than like something that was leading to a truth in my understand. You know, in my understanding, no one. Like I did, you know, I didn't seek an explanation, but it just felt tangibly, you know, because when you read the Christian Bible, there's acknowledgment that, that even, you know, some people, like, oh, this is the, the word of God, like direct from God's mouth. But it's written by many different men from many different time periods. And so it is pretty unique.
KB Olsen [02:44:39] Looking at the Book of Mormon, that this is like one sit down, download from God. That didn't seem to be how the Christian Bible came to be and that's largely agreed upon. So that just didn't make sense. It just didn't feel like a religious text to me. But again, not my religion. I was looking at it as something free and like a side, an end table in a hotel.
John Dehlin [02:45:10] But it. So the idea that the book is miraculous, like. No, no late teen, early 20s, frontier man in the 1820s could have come up with a miraculous book that wasn't.
KB Olsen [02:45:27] Absolutely not. I mean, his brother Hyrum was college educated, taught him a lot, presumably. I think that he was a well read young man. I think that there was this religious fervor of the time that it's like he was following a lot of threads. So even though it might not have been education in the way that we look at it now, lots and lots of people did not have traditional education back then. Lots of incredible writers, you know. So to me it seems very plausible that he could have.
John Dehlin [02:46:07] That Joseph was a sole author.
KB Olsen [02:46:09] No, I don't think he was maybe the sole author, but that he was a creator.
John Dehlin [02:46:16] Okay, so not a miraculous, inspiring book
KB Olsen [02:46:20] to you, was it to you, John?
John Dehlin [02:46:24] I tried really hard, I really did. And yes, it became inspiring to me at different points in my life.
KB Olsen [02:46:30] Yeah, I didn't.
John Dehlin [02:46:31] But it's like the Rush album. If you listen like 2112, if you listen to anything enough, you're gonna fall in love with it. Right?
KB Olsen [02:46:37] If that's, if that's what you keep receiving. You know, it's like, I don't know, even thinking about the power of like words and language, eventually you're reading and rereading this. This becomes your definition of miraculous. This becomes your definition of holiness, of inspiration, of illumination of God. This is where you're getting the words, the language to apply to the, the feelings of spiritual awakening, even of love. So if that's the words you're given, like we're all going to apply words to these sensations. That's like the challenge of existence, right? Like so, sure. I totally think you can come to associate those feelings with those words. But as someone who is just like getting a liberal arts education you know, in New York City when I was reading, didn't feel like that I. I wasn't like, to me, there wasn't like poetry in a way that might have been more compelling, but it was interesting.
John Dehlin [02:47:47] What about as a Jew? What about this narrative and this is calling back on south park in the Book of Mormon music a little bit? This idea that ancient Jews built boats and sailed to America. The fact that Native Americans were originally Jewish, that evil Jewish Native Americans were cursed with dark skin, but they killed off the white skinned Jewish Native Americans.
KB Olsen [02:48:10] I mean, there have been stories making Jews out to be evil for as long as there have been Jews. So again, I wasn't like, wow, what a novel invention from this one man.
John Dehlin [02:48:22] Like, no, what about just them being given a history that was so non historical? You know what I mean?
KB Olsen [02:48:31] Yeah. I mean, that just seemed insane.
John Dehlin [02:48:33] Like Native Americans have Israeli blood versus Asiatic Mongolian, whatever. Blood.
KB Olsen [02:48:41] Yeah. That I never like considered the probability of that. Like I was always receiving it as something untrue that I was trying to like examine the text that brought people to that understanding or to the values that were so inflexible to the way of life that was so successful at like creating this certain degree of homogeneity and belief and even like the aesthetic expressions of it of just the culture, like how it formed. So yeah, I don't know. Like, I think because in terms of like my own Jewish identity, it. I don't think I would be like taking that personally, if that makes sense. I wouldn't be like, oh my gosh, they're taking something like sacred to me and implying it in this false way. Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:49:41] And so if somebody were just to say, how valid is it that Native Americans were Jews and that the Book of Mormon was, you know, the accounts of Jesus coming to the Jews who were in America and just that whole narrative, you would say, what to.
KB Olsen [02:49:57] That's some American except exceptionalism and it's toxic. And that was just this way to anchor the white patriarchy here to what was like widely believed as this ancient justification for power violence, white men doing what they want. I guess.
John Dehlin [02:50:29] And I'm just thinking if somebody wrote some book about Mormons that claimed to be a Mormon history.
KB Olsen [02:50:34] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:50:34] But really it's just made up stuff that almost felt like fan fiction of another religious tradition.
KB Olsen [02:50:39] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:50:40] And I knew it was like totally not even based in reality, but it was claimed to be part of my heritage, I would probably feel deeply, angrily offended by that.
KB Olsen [02:50:53] I mean, if anything, honestly, John, I think it's like Having heard so many people on Mormon stories, like, reckon with that, with the pain of being born into that context, into the appeal of the narrative and what limitations that put on personhood, that now I just see the humanity apart from the text, basically. Like, I don't think, like, there's so many beliefs in Mormonism that are in opposition to, like, things that I believe or identify with. Right. So, yeah, I guess I just see people, like, creating stories to soothe themselves in so many different realms of life. And I think it's hurt Mormons more than, like, it's hurt me as a Jew to, like, have that belief.
John Dehlin [02:51:49] Interesting.
KB Olsen [02:51:49] But I don't, I don't want to speak for, like, Jewish people. I'm sure, like, I'm sure in my learning there was a part where I was like, who the hell do you think you are? And, and now I think I've just seen so much of the individuals, even people coming from places of power in the religion. Yeah. It's like, I don't know.
Margi Dehlin [02:52:14] I.
KB Olsen [02:52:15] It's like, who would I. Who would I be faulting? Exactly. Does that make sense?
John Dehlin [02:52:21] The only time. Yeah, it does. The only time I've really heard of Jews even paying attention to Mormons.
KB Olsen [02:52:25] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:52:26] Is when it was discovered that Mormons were baptizing.
KB Olsen [02:52:30] Oh, yeah.
John Dehlin [02:52:31] Holocaust victims in the baptisms for the dead in the temples.
KB Olsen [02:52:35] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:52:35] Otherwise we probably weren't even a thought.
KB Olsen [02:52:38] Yeah. I mean, y' all are new.
John Dehlin [02:52:41] It's just.
KB Olsen [02:52:42] Why. Why would we care? No, but that's like.
John Dehlin [02:52:45] But you do care.
KB Olsen [02:52:46] No, that's what you're. I care. No, no, no. I'm saying in general. Me specifically. I deeply care. I know, but it's like, not, it's not even like a religious question. Like, to me, my, my observation of Mormonism has been this curiosity and like, how long can we sustain these, these lies? I guess. And I don't even mean specifically in the Book of Mormon. I just mean the, the white hetero patriarchy in the US Like American exceptionalism.
Margi Dehlin [02:53:20] It's.
KB Olsen [02:53:21] It went what. How far can. Can it crumble? And I think watching people learn truths about the church, leave the church is sort of like watching this mass consciousness shift in the US if that makes sense.
John Dehlin [02:53:45] What do you make of Joseph Smith's sort of final four years where he's marrying 14 year olds, marrying other men's, marrying women, married to other men, marrying over 30 people, lying about it, like, running for president, implementing baptisms for the dead. And, you know, what do you make of his last four years?
KB Olsen [02:54:08] I think he like, yeah, got a little Keith Renery there. Yeah, for a minute. But I don't think that that's where I'm like, I don't know how. I mean, I guess this is true of like all of these like cult leaders. Sorry, I'm just like, how far ahead? You know, again, if we're talking about like someone desperate to like get some kind of needs met, like have this affirmation through power. I don't know. But yeah, like, I don't like, I don't like that. And the Mormon Church doesn't like that either, that that's what he was doing. So it seems, I think it's really messed up.
John Dehlin [02:54:49] So in your mind, did. Does that make him a horrible human because of the way he handled sex and women towards the end or not so much? Or have you even felt like you needed to form a conclusion about his character, his credibility?
KB Olsen [02:55:07] I think to me it's more like the myth making of him than his actual acts as a person. I mean, no, of course I condemn all of that behavior. I condemn all. I kind of condemn all of it really. But I think what did the myth of what he pronounced do for people that it became such an effective unifying story and symbol? So it's not even that like, oh, you know, Joseph Smith did all of these terrible things. It's like, why do we look away from so many terrible things, not just Joseph Smith's behavior. Right. And so I just like, makes me curious because I. It's like this might be sort of a bleak outlook, but I'm like, again, he doesn't seem like that creative or innovative of a man to me in terms of how he treated women in terms of his like sexual aggression. That is the most boring part of
John Dehlin [02:56:20] the story because I'm like pedestrian and it's almost, it's redundant. Yeah.
KB Olsen [02:56:25] It's not this like novel chapter in something. So I'm not sitting here thinking like, huh, what do I think of like this behavior? I'm like, that's the given of the equation. It's what it's packaged into, how it's hidden and that there are, you know, behaviors of men that are like hidden and excused. I mean, even when you make comparisons between your excommunication versus people who commit sexual crimes, that's the interest point. Exactly. I'm sorry, who aren't excommunicated. It's like, okay, that is Joseph Smith's legacy. Right. And that interests me much more than actually thinking about his day to day life. Though I did love Seeing, like, his locks of hair at the pioneer museum. But that might have been the first time I was like, oh, my gosh.
Margi Dehlin [02:57:16] Yeah, that was.
KB Olsen [02:57:17] That was a guy.
John Dehlin [02:57:19] Did you. When you're. When you're at the museum and they're talking about Joseph Smith and, you know, the dark sides of the life he lived.
KB Olsen [02:57:26] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:57:26] And then you see how he's being portrayed and honored in a Salt Lake City Mormon museum, do you feel like it's misrepresenting who he is? Like, staying true to who he is? Did you even think about that?
KB Olsen [02:57:39] Did it come up well at that particular museum? Oh, gosh. Okay. All the ladies there were so, so sweet. Okay. I bought a knit little hat, a hand knit hat for my friend who's having a baby for a dollar fifty. Like, how that was. Okay.
KB Olsen [02:58:00] Felt. Felt my heart there. That was God to me. That museum, there isn't very much context for the artifacts in there. First of all, there's a lot of indigenous artifacts that I'm like, give them back, guys. Why is this here next to entire catalog of aprons from the 19th century? Right. It's not yours.
KB Olsen [02:58:26] Next. A lot of the cataloging is done by, like, pioneer, but more so by, like, family. So it's like gift of blank family. And to me, it just is like this whole political chess game of, like, I can imagine the conflict of who gets what in the cases and where, because so much is credited to whom without context, broader context for what it is or what it may have been used for. Not in all cases. There's like a binder on paisley shawls with, like, some interesting information about that.
Margi Dehlin [02:58:58] Like, for those who want to go
KB Olsen [02:59:00] deeper, which I did. Don't worry, Margaret. But there's definitely this, like, display of who has saved the heritage the most. Who has saved the white colonialist heritage. Like, I have a hairnet.
Margi Dehlin [02:59:17] Oh, yeah.
KB Olsen [02:59:18] I have a piece of bread. I have eagle's eggs collected in 1893. And it's like the family name there. And so. But I loved seeing it all. The handcraft was incredible. Again, I felt like I was just looking at beautiful works made by women in an unfortunate situation. And then it's all, like, in glass cases. And I spent hours. I actually went. I got too hungry, so I went and got lunch. And then the next day I went back. Like, I wanted to see it all. So I'm not talking about it being, like, compelling artifacts of the time, but it is not there to actually represent anything historic.
KB Olsen [03:00:03] But it does show a history and just like a illuminated. They are illuminating what they want to illuminate. You know, I would literally walk into rooms and the light would turn on and I'm the only one in the whole museum. I mean, there were, there were like kids visiting. But it just felt like this interesting metaphor to me of, like, I come in and, like, the lights go up and it's like all of these, these dishes behind glass and then I leave and was like, how long were the lights off before I walked in here? Like, I don't know if anyone's really illuminating this.
KB Olsen [03:00:37] So does that make sense? Like, I know you're like, inquiring, like, you talk to religious people from a religious background a lot. And I felt like I kept sort of like pulling on the rope and I can't extract it, or maybe I'm pulling on it this way out of myself. But it, it's like I. And this might also be a gender thing. Like, I don't think I've had the opportunity. And again, I know there are so many incredible, like, Jewish women scholars, scholars, period. Like, I'm not saying it that way, but I don't think I ever was given the context where it's like, oh, I can think for and speak for, like, Jewish identity.
KB Olsen [03:01:19] Like, that was flattened so early that even though I've converted, even though I've explored it, even though, you know, I've held a Passover Seder, it's just never for me to. Sure to speak to or compare. Like, when I, Even when I see it, I'm like, oh, is that even. Except for in a contemporary moment where I want to deconstruct, you know, things.
John Dehlin [03:01:44] Well, you're more Jewish than us Mormons that claim to be the pure blood of Israel. So.
KB Olsen [03:01:48] Oh, my gosh. I know.
Margi Dehlin [03:01:49] I love that.
KB Olsen [03:01:49] That's like our common thread.
Margi Dehlin [03:01:51] Right.
KB Olsen [03:01:51] Like, that's so funny. I think it's always been funny to me. Like, and I. It's not. Again, as an outsider, like, I really am not, like, laughing at Mormons. Like, I've. I've. It hasn't. I mean, there's. There's funny entertainment, but. Yeah, just. I don't care. I don't care.
John Dehlin [03:02:15] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, really quickly. This is a really broad question, but you talked about American history and the frontier.
KB Olsen [03:02:23] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:02:23] And kind of real history versus, you know, something else. Like when you think about Mormon pioneers and Brigham Young and Mountain Meadows Massacre and, And maybe post manifesto polygamy or the colonies or all of that, like, from an American context and knowing kind of the Mormon history and how Mormonism helped awaken you to a better understanding and maybe of 19th century frontier America. Like, have you, have you distilled any thoughts about America or Mormonism from all that?
KB Olsen [03:03:02] Yeah, I think Mormonism for me as an outsider is a metaphor for American identity. Right. Because it's like the ideal expression of, of the American dream, of this identity, of the way family is meant to look, of the way people are meant to look.
John Dehlin [03:03:20] So do you mean white by that? Like patriarchal?
KB Olsen [03:03:24] Yeah, yeah.
John Dehlin [03:03:25] Traditional white?
KB Olsen [03:03:26] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:03:28] Do you mean other things? I just want to make sure I understand.
KB Olsen [03:03:30] No, no, those, those are the ones. Do you have other stuff that you guys do? That's it? No, no. I'm so sorry. Oh my gosh. Anyway, so that's the ideal, right? And then the Mormon Church has so, so much money, so much power. I think as I like examined my parents political affiliations, like even in the Republican Party, and realizing how much weight the Mormons have to back and influence politics, there was a part of me too that was like, do you guys know that you're like, this is the group, you know, like.
KB Olsen [03:04:09] But I think that there's this image, this story, this legacy, all of which are perceived are an inheritance. And our inheritance, I think is to actually like uncover the truths in that story. And that's something that we all have to do and many people are doing for the first time in terms of like American identity. So like we are all, it's not like the exact same culture, but looking at how people are devastated to find the reality of what the Mormon Church is, I'm like, yes. And the story of America and our history and government.
Margi Dehlin [03:04:56] Yeah.
KB Olsen [03:04:57] So it's compelling, it's a very contained way to examine and yet is also such a vast history and like connects to so many things. So even in thinking about the creation of an American identity at all, it's like we're all looking at the Mormon Church. Like, how could they believe this? How could you, you know, like, like want people to be so controlled or repressed? And I don't think it's like just the Mormon Church applying this pressure, this rigidity. We're seeing that unfold, right? What like the true desire is. So I think they're just like really closely linked.
John Dehlin [03:05:57] It's kind of like from the 1950s on, the American identity became like men with white shirts and ties in suits. And when I think about that's either like the FBI or IBM or freaking Mormons. Like, it's like, who else?
KB Olsen [03:06:15] The Mormons are the ones in the FBI as Well, so it's all the Mormon image, like I said, think that in. On a subconscious level. That is why there is so much content and fascination and also why, you know, you've posed the question a lot like, how come in the context of like the church and the belief in the apocalypse, like, how does this lead to the kind of crime and violence and tragedy that we see where it's like, wow, a lot of like Mormon crime documentaries, like, what's going on? Again, I think that's the consequences of forcing this hierarchy that the church that the government claims is natural and actually is anything but. So it's kind of like bursting at the seams. I don't know if I put that
Mormonism as a Quintessentially American Religion
John Dehlin [03:07:11] I was going to ask you about that because I think orthodox Mormons are probably really unhappy that, that I basically, you know, what they want to say is that Warren Jess and flds, that's not Mormon, that's some offshoot. Or Lori Valo and Chad Dabel, that's not Mormon. That's crazy people that happen to be Mormon that were murderous and, you know, murdering their children and spouses, but they're, they're. That's not Mormon. There are, there are criminals who happen to be Mormon, not Mormonism making criminals.
John Dehlin [03:07:49] Or again, the recent fascination with Ruby Frankie and Jody Hildebrandt. It's like, those are crazy people. And all of that craziness is the fault of social media. It's not Mormons. It's not Mormonism that's creating all that I've been trying to say, hey, journalists.
John Dehlin [03:08:07] I think there's. I think Mormonism contributes to these patterns being repeated. As an outsider, honestly, do you think I'm forcing that narrative? Do you think there's something to it as someone who's totally not compromised with direct connections to this people, you know.
Margi Dehlin [03:08:30] Yeah.
KB Olsen [03:08:31] I think it's really fascinating when extremists from an American perspective are representative of an entire group or an entire people. Right. So I think the extremism is, is a product of the culture. I think that saying, like, oh, like Ruby Frankie isn't Mormon. Like she is. She was trying to be the ultimate Mormon. Right. I think that's trying to distance from. This repression that again, I think is like maybe an American quality as well.
John Dehlin [03:09:22] And also perfectionism, maybe.
KB Olsen [03:09:26] Absolutely. Exceptionalism. Perfectionism that you're deserving of reward for a certain kind of behavior and that it's only through your own performance that these rewards come that. I don't know.
Margi Dehlin [03:09:47] Yeah.
KB Olsen [03:09:48] A refusal to look at the structure and the weaknesses of that structure and also just like, what it does to our brains. Obviously, like, you can just get into a loop with these beliefs that can bring you to extreme places.
John Dehlin [03:10:12] So you're, you know, because. Because we could probably find a mass murderer who was Jewish, and then someone could say, see, that's Judaism. It leads to mass murder.
Margi Dehlin [03:10:20] You.
John Dehlin [03:10:20] You. Which I would reject. But at the same time, you do. As someone who's been trying to observe Mormon culture, what I heard you just say is that the exceptionalism, the perfectionism, the extremism of Mormon culture.
KB Olsen [03:10:35] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:10:35] There probably is a tie to that in some of this crime, true crime stuff that seems to be drawing a lot of fascination by never Mormons to Mormonism.
KB Olsen [03:10:45] Yeah. And I think that there's like an innate question for outsider, subconscious question for outsiders too, of, like, what are the. The factors that create these. These circumstances, these crimes that have echoes of each other. Right. And if it's that this religion, this entire city was like, founded on violence and crime. You know, there's a mirror for, you know, it's like on the east Coast. My. My high school, for example, I don't want to say the name, but it's like something manner is like, part of the neighborhood. So I go through all high school, I learn about the Civil War, blah, blah, blah, blah. Only recently. And did it occur to me to, like, look into, like, what the manor was.
John Dehlin [03:11:42] Plantation.
KB Olsen [03:11:43] Yeah, it was. Come on. It was like, is that.
John Dehlin [03:11:48] I don't want.
KB Olsen [03:11:48] Yeah, yeah, it was a. It was a. A slave plantation.
John Dehlin [03:11:53] Yeah.
KB Olsen [03:11:54] And I was always told, oh, these neighborhoods. It was farmland. I'm like, how are you going to, like, deny this and where is it? And I think there's the same thing with like, again, this is like, really, really broad strokes. I'm just trying to explain why emotionally, I'm like, there's a need to deconstruct or to like, understand that. That violence is our violence. So that. Yes, I think Mormons should claim Ruby, Frankie and Jody Hildebrandt. Like, I think that that needs to be processed and understood and, like, healed from, because it is a representation of just like this kind of like, suffocation that people experience. Because there is an acknowledgement of how this was created, how this. What function, this perfectionism serves these, like, systems of oppression as a whole.
John Dehlin [03:12:55] But what I'm also hearing from you, which is something I've never occurred to me before. When you're observing Mormonism.
KB Olsen [03:13:02] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:13:03] You're equating it with America. With America and American culture. You're basically Seeing Mormonism as kind of American culture on steroids. So it's not just a critique of Mormonism. It's basically an analysis and a critique of American culture and history through the lens of the most American religion.
KB Olsen [03:13:26] Right. Like, there was this longing for identity within the Enlightenment.
Margi Dehlin [03:13:29] Right.
KB Olsen [03:13:29] And, like, what was the American spirituality and philosophy? And Mormonism answered that question. So that. Is this, like, just the only distinctly American answer. Whereas, you know, mainstream Christianity, the origins are not here. That's not ours. That's like an application of colonialism, of patriarchy, of all of these things that, like, are part of American history. But, yeah, Mormonism is ours. Like, this is our. I'm even saying mine like you're saying yours. Yeah, I mean, I didn't. I'm not Joseph Smith, but, like, this is my. This is the cultural ideal of the. Of the country that I grew up in.
Margi Dehlin [03:14:18] You know what I'm hearing you say that it's like Ruby Frankie grew. Grew to be in the soil of Mormonism. Right. Mormonism as a soil, what its values are. Gave. Gave root, helped nurture a Ruby Frankie. America is the soil in which Mormonism gave root and was able to thrive.
KB Olsen [03:14:43] So there. Yeah, again, very, very broad strokes here. But when I, like, reflect on what, you know, what am I watching? Because it's. I'm not just watching this reality TV show about Mormon wives. Right. I feel like for 20 years, I've been watching the slow dissolution of this idea, and that, to me, feels like.
Margi Dehlin [03:15:10] Yeah.
KB Olsen [03:15:11] Watching what is, like, the most distinct American, white American culture dissolve this. This con. The concept as a whole, dissolve the reality of, like, oh, this is holiness. This is power. This is what God wants. This is how God wants you to be. And that, you know, America's God's country. So they're really interlinked, and people are seeing through realizing that. That it pains them, but also that it has, like, destroyed others and our opportunity to connect and flourish.
John Dehlin [03:15:49] And you're kind of blowing my mind because by far, the LDS Church is the most wealthy and powerful American religion.
KB Olsen [03:15:59] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:15:59] And it is born here and bred here. And I always knew, you know, because there was American exceptionalism baked into the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants.
KB Olsen [03:16:08] Yes, yes.
John Dehlin [03:16:09] But I always thought of that as just like some odd kind of, like, factoid that also co. Occurred with the Mormon movement.
KB Olsen [03:16:18] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:16:18] But you're blowing my mind. And I think it was Harold Bloom, who's like a Yale literary guy, who basically said Mormonism is the. Is the quintessential American religion. Like the power, the patriarchy, the money, the wealth, the success of the Mormon people is like a people born and bred in America fulfilling the American dream in all of its glory. In all of its. Disgusting.
Margi Dehlin [03:16:51] I was gonna say. And on the other, glory and horror.
John Dehlin [03:16:53] Right.
Margi Dehlin [03:16:54] The oppression.
KB Olsen [03:16:55] Yes. Of you could go down that every level. And like, there couldn't be that wealth without, you know, our legacy of slavery. You know, like, that wealth didn't just come to, like, it didn't come from a salt lake that can't sustain life. Like, give me a break.
Margi Dehlin [03:17:16] So,
KB Olsen [03:17:18] yeah, it just, it feels. It just has felt really important to study and watch. Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:17:26] Because we were super racist. We enslaved Native Americans in Utah. Like, we subjugated women. We embraced capitalism, I think with Jews
KB Olsen [03:17:37] and Jewish wealth, for example.
John Dehlin [03:17:40] It's like, okay, we co opted the Jewish identity.
KB Olsen [03:17:43] No, no, it's like we have created this incredible art in spite of oppression. And yes, there's like intersectional nuance of like, what that oppression has been in different parts of history. But it's like, yeah, in spite of, like, we've been impressed, but we're innovative. It's like Mormons haven't been oppressed. Like, the only story there is is like, that you Mormons weren't allowed to be polygamous anymore or Utah couldn't be a state. Right. But it's like this, this is America. This is like, what.
KB Olsen [03:18:22] This is the wealth amassed because of all of, you know, this other oppression and destruction. Do you know what I'm saying? It's not like an identity built out of like, oh, there is an us against them. But it's not like you're just. It's like, okay, fine, let that, let that be. This bubble out west. And I'm like, no, they own like more apple stock than anyone. Like, what are. What do you mean?
Parallels Between Jewish and Mormon Persecution Narratives
John Dehlin [03:18:47] I mean, this is so fascinating talking to a Jew about, about persecution and oppression, because Mormons would say only Jews could understand the level of oppression and discrimination that we faced because Governor Boggs in Missouri issued an extermination order against all Mormons and we were driven out of Ohio. Then we were driven out of Missouri, then we were driven out of Nauvoo, and our leader was assassinated and we were driven to Utah. You know, we'd basically say, yeah, Jews and Mormons. We know, we know a few thousand
KB Olsen [03:19:22] people if that in these, like, incredibly specific circumstances in American history in which we were like, violently colonizing the country. Right. That's not the same as like, this diaspora of Jewish people being Oppressed and,
John Dehlin [03:19:39] like, killed by the millions.
KB Olsen [03:19:41] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:19:42] You know, it's not.
KB Olsen [03:19:44] I'm not saying that's the ultimate oppression either, but I mean, I just. Yeah, there's this story, this idea of, like, oh, here's all this. Like, that's why there's like, Independence Day and Pioneer Day. Right. It's like, look at the suffering. Look at what we went through to get here. And I'm like, I don't know, you guys had a lot of really nice English china and porcelain. So if that, if that. If those fragile treasures survived. I think you survived, someone's going to. Oh, my gosh. I'm so sorry. If anyone I need to apologize to.
John Dehlin [03:20:18] You're checking. I've never been checked like this in such a healthy way. Because even I, John, think, oh, man, we were so oppressed. You know, like, Mormons were really oppressed and.
KB Olsen [03:20:30] No, it's like Mormons. To me, it's like when you can almost pretend other oppression doesn't exist. To the extreme.
Margi Dehlin [03:20:39] That's right.
KB Olsen [03:20:40] That's when you get this exceptional contained, homogenous identity.
John Dehlin [03:20:47] But they delayed our statehood for at least 10 or 20 years.
KB Olsen [03:20:49] I know. I'm so sorry.
Margi Dehlin [03:20:51] It must have been so.
John Dehlin [03:20:52] I'm joking.
KB Olsen [03:20:53] No, I know, I know. I'm just joking. My apology was. That one was a joke.
John Dehlin [03:20:57] No, because a Mormon would take violent. Objection.
KB Olsen [03:21:00] I know. All the Mormons I've met in Salt Lake in the last couple of days.
John Dehlin [03:21:04] Like the sweethearts, right?
Margi Dehlin [03:21:07] Yeah.
KB Olsen [03:21:08] They're so kind. It's not there. I mean, this is a collective story and, like, you know, shoving. Trying to, like, make it fit. Trying to justify power for a very small group of men. Okay. All of it. So I'm not saying that, like, the humanity of interpersonal relationships. I'm not saying that Mormons as people like, that your love isn't real. Absolutely. I think that's why it's so nuanced and difficult. Right. It's like there's so much caretaking in Mormon. In the Mormon community. There's so much, Like. I guess I want to say, like, Yeah, I guess Community in this way that, like, everyone else seems to feel is absent. Like, social media seemingly hasn't ruined Mormon community. Granted, I know a lot of people are leaving the church. That's different. But. Yeah, actually, maybe that's not true. Scratch that.
John Dehlin [03:22:20] No, the church would say it's stronger than ever.
KB Olsen [03:22:22] Right.
John Dehlin [03:22:24] Well, I just want to. I just want to say. You really, like, it's rare that I have these big light bulbs, but you
Margi Dehlin [03:22:31] gave John a light bulb.
KB Olsen [03:22:33] Light bulb. No.
John Dehlin [03:22:34] Like the two most offensive things I think you could say to a Mormon is number one, they're not Christian.
KB Olsen [03:22:40] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:22:40] And number two, they've never been oppressed or persecuted on some grand level. But in context we haven't. But we think of ourselves as almost as bad, almost as persecuted as the Jews. And that's a. Thank you for helping check that because. Okay. Yeah. We had to wait 10 years to have our state. We now control Idaho, Arizona and Utah.
KB Olsen [03:23:04] I feel like you guys got everything you wanted and more.
John Dehlin [03:23:07] Right.
Margi Dehlin [03:23:08] I think, you know, powerful. That is definitely true with Jewish people. It's also true of, you know, Native Americans. Yes.
KB Olsen [03:23:18] Pick your people.
Margi Dehlin [03:23:19] That's.
KB Olsen [03:23:20] We're only speaking about Jewish people. That's the closest to a.
Margi Dehlin [03:23:24] So I think there is an interesting personality kind of trait in all of this with one's history and it's like a self focus to the point of shutting out other people's histories and experiences.
KB Olsen [03:23:41] Yeah. I feel like for those who have appeared on Mormon stories, found the devastation of the untruths. Right. And feeling like no one's going to take me seriously because I, I believed this or like I've had to deconstruct. It's like you're not alone. Like this is a facade. Like it's the Truman show for all of us on some level. And some people, you know, there isn't such a, like rigid visual of like the right kind of person. You know, like the Mormon stereotype is so concrete that like when you leave it feels like this vast distance. But like we all desperately need to wake up. Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [03:24:32] And I think there's also. There can be a tendency when you. Part of your identity is about, you know, surviving being, Being persecuted, being where I feel like you can tend to be protective. And I think the ultimate, the ultimate gift is if you ever get in a place of more privilege or safety or that actually you would look around and be able to recognize other people who are currently now.
KB Olsen [03:25:15] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [03:25:15] In places of not being safe or being persecuted or. Do you know what I mean? As opposed to just staying in this prosperity. Endless prosperity for our group of people. Endless safety for our group of people. Ideally it would. You would get to a point to recognize and even go back in time
KB Olsen [03:25:37] to or at least acknowledge first that that prosperity and safety wasn't earned.
Margi Dehlin [03:25:42] That's right.
KB Olsen [03:25:43] And might have been stolen. Yeah. Much less. I mean, baby steps, but yeah. Baby steps. Let's overreach, you know.
Margi Dehlin [03:25:54] Yeah.
KB Olsen [03:25:56] And that is like really tragic. To realize. And I do think this disconnect from a parental figure, that, like, description of love and safety and then wondering why I couldn't feel it. That resonates so much with episodes that I've listened to as well. Of, like, I was gonna ask you about actual alienation. Yeah, yeah. And like. And sort of like, this question of, like, well, why can't I feel it? It's almost like that admission of, like, I didn't. I never heard that. Still. Small voice, like.
Margi Dehlin [03:26:36] Yeah.
KB Olsen [03:26:36] I just kind of, at some point had to say it. I had to, like, keep this in. And it didn't connect me going to the temple. How many times people say, like, I got a bad feeling, and then I just, you know, had to do the hand motions through the veil or whatever. Like. And again, I know these are very sacred things for some people. I am not here to stomp on it. I'm. I'm more saying that, like, there is this innate disconnect because I don't think the mechanism. The religion was actually, like, made for you. It was for, like, this small group of white men in power.
John Dehlin [03:27:17] So that's pretty clear.
KB Olsen [03:27:19] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [03:27:20] Yeah.
Favorite Mormon Stories and Real Housewives of Salt Lake City
John Dehlin [03:27:21] Just because you were talking about connecting with certain Mormon stories, this may be putting you on the spot a little bit, but I'm just super curious. Are there particular episodes or people or types of episodes on Mormon stories that, like, you found yourself being particularly either connecting with or moved by? And if so, I'm curious what those were or have been.
KB Olsen [03:27:47] Yeah, I have a lot of faves. I think thematically, something I really liked is when people from the UK who were converts or whose parents were converts share their Mormon story. First of all, like, I think to have been in the uk, like, the ultimate colonial empire, and then take on the narrative of, like, the American connection back to you. I'm, like, you looped around a really strange way, so that's just interesting psychologically to me. I think one of my favorite episodes is the. The bishop from the uk. I forget his name.
John Dehlin [03:28:30] The. Tom Phillips. The second anointing.
KB Olsen [03:28:33] Second anointing, Yeah. I. I feel, like, his pain and the fact that he was still separated from his family at that time, that
John Dehlin [03:28:45] they cut him off.
KB Olsen [03:28:46] Yeah. Lost his faith was so devastating. And, like, he lost his faith in such a pure way. Like, fact was just fact suddenly.
John Dehlin [03:28:57] Yeah.
KB Olsen [03:28:57] And that was just a beautiful realization. And I thought that. I don't know, it was really interesting to, like, hear you respond to him as well.
Margi Dehlin [03:29:09] So. Yeah.
KB Olsen [03:29:09] I mean, that's also why I like Nemo. The Mormon, I think, again, this deconstructing from the uk, it's like you get that distant perspective on, like, America, but then you participate in the American religion. But it was this distance. There's something about the. The distance and closeness, I think, that makes those stories really interesting. Samantha from Zelf on the Shelf. Also just naming the Brits.
KB Olsen [03:29:39] One of my favorite episodes is when Margi interviewed you. That was just, like, a really amazing piece of storytelling. And, like, I just found it to be this, like, powerful moment of just integrating your reality into the reality of the project and to, like, account for all the ways that, like, the sacrifice that it took to create this and what it felt like emotionally was really, really powerful too. And, like, this idea of the great project and, like, reckoning with what is worth it. Really like that one love. Everyone who's gay, who's come on Mormon stories.
John Dehlin [03:30:38] The LGBT narratives.
KB Olsen [03:30:39] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:30:40] Connected with that.
KB Olsen [03:30:42] Yep. I mean, those are. Yeah, those have been really interesting. I. I think. What else?
John Dehlin [03:30:55] Did you get into the LDS discussions?
KB Olsen [03:30:57] Oh, yeah, I love the LDS discussions.
John Dehlin [03:30:59] Like, was that boring? That feels like total insider baseball to be talking about, like, Mormon church history and truth claims.
KB Olsen [03:31:07] I don't find it boring. I mean, I definitely. With those, like, I put them on kind of when I'm doing something else or, like, even if I'm just walking. But, yeah, I think it's kind of endlessly fascinating. Again, I just, like, never get bored of the subject matter. And there's something. This is just, like, a really great tank to, like, watch realization and, like, I don't know, in our, like, social media age, it's like, what's real? What's performance? What's like. That's always the kind of the question at hand. So I don't know, it's like, always really interesting to me, Trying to think.
KB Olsen [03:31:56] Oh, obviously the reviews of, like, the Real Housewives, Heather Gay's episode, or shall I say her saga, was incredible. I just didn't know how early she was in her, like, deconstruction when the show kicked off her, that she wasn't at all. And I just found her tenacity and vulnerability to be really monumental and, like, affirmed for me. Why, you know, that part of the franchise, the Salt Lake part of the franchise was so powerful and immediately hooked people in season one.
John Dehlin [03:32:40] Have you. Have you watched Real House Life? Real Housewives of Salt Lake City, John. I've only seen.
KB Olsen [03:32:48] Look around.
John Dehlin [03:32:50] Okay.
KB Olsen [03:32:51] Yeah. But also, like, it just, like, gave voice to. I don't know. It's like, interesting to See the women on that show who have adopted the like approach to capitalism and self worth. So they're like empowered, but it's still in this very like, Mormon way. And I'm like, who's, you know, are they helping themselves? Like, what, what is empowerment in this context?
KB Olsen [03:33:15] And then, yeah, I think any, like, women's panel obviously is a fave of mine. Most recently talking about the change in the silhouette of garments. I think I just really like to hear Mormon women like, laughing with each other about some of the circumstances of their roles. And just like the immense amount, like it's not just the pioneer women. I feel like there's just such an immense amount of emotional, physical, like all kinds of work that Mormon women do. And you know, there's something that's like, also connected me to some of like, what was difficult about my mom's position and being like a stay at home mom and feeling like she was less than for not being educated. And, and so, yeah, I, I don't know that that always makes me feel like. I just feel like so inspired by those conversations.
John Dehlin [03:34:18] Do you kind of see your mom in the traditional Mormon woman a little bit?
KB Olsen [03:34:22] Not really, no. But that I think just that discussion of the role of being like a stay at home mom or like the value of mothering and the labor of it. So, yeah, like, to an extent, but also like, again, we're in this like perfect patriarchy, right? So to hear women kind of reckon with like, okay, like even hearing women recently in Episodes talk about benevolent patriarchy, I'm like, oh, what else? You know?
John Dehlin [03:34:53] Yeah, fascinating. Those are my ones talking about either the Real Housewives of Salt Lake City or the Secret wives lives of Mormon wives. Like, my point of view there is that on the one hand, I don't even recognize these women as Mormon. Like the idea, like, I was such a conservative, orthodox, traditional Mormon, I still haven't tried alcohol. So, like, to see young Mormon women in Jacuzzis drinking alcohol and going to Vegas to see Chippendales, that's like literally the least Mormon thing ever. Or I'm just telling you. Yeah, oh, yeah, totally my point of view. And then to see the Real Housewives of Salt Lake City, it's almost like that's a meme that then just got instantiated within a Mormon paradigm.
John Dehlin [03:35:50] But even Heather Gay, in my mind, like, she doesn't represent more. I mean, I'd see her as deeply Mormon and I know her and I respect her Mormonism, but at the same time, again, least Mormon thing ever. And Even like Hannah whatever Neeleman and. And the ballerina.
KB Olsen [03:36:08] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:36:10] Again, that's like, in 2025. That's not the average Mormon woman who's, like, making sourdough bread and dressing in prairie dresses and on a farm, blah, blah, blah. So on the one hand, I look at some of those shows that really draw global attention as being ridiculous, absurd, barely Mormon enterprises. And then. And then at the same time, obviously on the show, I'm trying to say there's a lot of Mormonism in there.
KB Olsen [03:36:46] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:36:46] But at the same time, I don't see them, any of them, as stereotypical Mormons. And so I'm wondering if you, like, I think of Margi is Mormon. I think of many of the women that we interview as Mormon. But then I don't think any of that would make reality tv. So I'm wondering how much you think of, like, Heather Gay or the. Or the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives as actually being Mormon versus almost like ridiculous pop culture extremities.
KB Olsen [03:37:18] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:37:18] You know what I mean? Or if you're like, yeah, that. Oh, that's. That's what it's like to be Mormon to Jacuzzi and bikinis, drinking alcohol with. With weird dudes.
KB Olsen [03:37:28] I definitely think,
John Dehlin [03:37:33] Well, or cat fighting at a restaurant and throwing things at each other.
KB Olsen [03:37:37] I mean, okay, I see those as sort of the motifs of the way we experience entertaining conflict on television. Right. So that's not about Mormons. That's just about the genre.
John Dehlin [03:37:53] Yeah.
KB Olsen [03:37:53] And that's why it's fascinating. So you got to kind of like, take the cat fights aside. That is what's produced. But I think that when the women are in conflict with themselves, which they often are, it's so profoundly Mormon. What arises conflict for them as individuals is where they're reckoning with their Mormon identity. It's like. What's her name? Taylor. Frank.
John Dehlin [03:38:20] Taylor. Frankie Paul.
KB Olsen [03:38:21] Yeah, Taylor Frankie Paul. The moments of her, like, self reflection and shame and pain, which are. Who knows how much we're seeing and how much is the narrative. But regardless, the fact that she is so conflicted in her choices is Mormon.
KB Olsen [03:38:43] You know, with Heather. Oh, my gosh, like, Heather. Felt so much fear, not just, you know, of her community and judgment, but also, like, she's somewhat. She's a character. I'm going to talk about the character of Heather Gay. Right. I don't know her.
KB Olsen [03:39:03] She was like, most fearful of the extreme behavior on both sides of, like, the. The women who were, like, holding the line of Mormonism that made her feel like she was so bad for leaving. And then the women who are, you know, making chess moves, power plays against her. Like, she responds with, like, so much fear. She's, like, the most, I don't know, relatable. And, like, she's caught between. She can't decide.
KB Olsen [03:39:31] And these are, like, live action forging of their identity. Like, I didn't realize I was, like, watching her actually experience putting this together. Yes. Then there's a level of, okay, I want to be an influencer. I have my. My business to plug, whatever. But again, those are just, like, factors of the. The genre of the medium of reality television.
KB Olsen [03:39:57] And yeah. With the Secret Lives, I think that that, that is like, Gen Z Mormonism. Like, how you reckon that with the. Vast amount of information and information that is conflicting with the church that's online. And I'm not saying that, you know, those women have, like, read the CES letter or something. It's more just like, that is a reality that the people looking at them from the outside might have this understanding of. I guess that there is just, like, an outside view and perspective in, like, real time. Does that make sense?
John Dehlin [03:40:44] Yeah, part of the. And this is now stepping away from my perspective. Part of the orthodox Mormon narrative now is that Mormons are just grossly misrepresented in the media.
KB Olsen [03:40:55] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:40:56] And Heretic the movie is another example. Just that none of that is really Mormonism.
KB Olsen [03:41:03] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:41:03] What do you. So that's a different perspective than mine. Right.
KB Olsen [03:41:06] But yeah, I mean, I don't. Yeah, I didn't think Heretic was, like, obviously an accurate perspective. And like, your conversation with those filmmakers, I was like, you guys didn't know that much about Mormonism. Like, love you, but they should have consulted, should have called me. I'm totally joking. But I mean, okay, like, they can believe that, but the church.
John Dehlin [03:41:30] The church wants to say that the real Mormonism is that family on South Park. Right, Right. Yeah, Just family evening, baking cookies, being nice to see.
KB Olsen [03:41:40] Ruby Frankie.
John Dehlin [03:41:41] Huh?
KB Olsen [03:41:42] Wasn't that Ruby Frankie's content?
John Dehlin [03:41:43] I know, right?
KB Olsen [03:41:44] Like, she seemed. That seemed to be the exact, you know, like, that quotidian, like, acts of motherhood and care and cooking and.
John Dehlin [03:41:55] But that's one bad apple that doesn't spoil the whole.
KB Olsen [03:41:57] I'm sorry. Okay. Yeah, totally inaccurate. No, but, like, all the vloggers in that context of, like, again, like, whose lens, who is in power? The gaze on these children? Like, who is that for? And, like, what is that meant to convey? Like, that gaze in and of itself is Mormon, in my opinion. I mean, think about like the internal gaze that's part of like the like, ritual of journaling and documenting self and the importance of, of that narrative. But how it then means that you're, you're being watched to judge you for your eternity. I mean, that feels really orthodox Mormon to me.
John Dehlin [03:42:48] That's good. Okay. And Margi's got questions, but I have one last question. What do you observe and what insight or even advice do you have for ex Mormons, for Mormons questioning their faith? I'm sure you've heard a lot of questioning the church narrative, losing faith in the church narrative, leaving the church narrative, and then like how Mormons, ex Mormons confront sexuality, non monogamy, psychedelics, marriage, trying to deprogram their deep, deeply conditioned selves and try to kind of do the reverse of what you did. What you did is you were raised with kind of. I'll just. This is glib, but nothing. And then you were trying to find something. We were raised with everything. And now we're trying to just get back to some sort of normalcy by deprogramming. I'm curious what insights you have not only as an outsider, but someone coming from almost like the opposite paradigm of inadequately conditioned versus overly conditioned. Right.
KB Olsen [03:43:59] I mean, I was still very, very conditioned, just not by religion. Yes, talk about it, Talk about it. That's part of it is I think that, like, to believe that you are not a product of conditioning, I don't know, to the next Mormon, I'd be like, those might not be your friends. Like, it should be someone who is ready to. Again, I think this is why I love to hear the Mormon women laughing. It's like we have to laugh at the conditioning that's universal. Like the pain of our conditioning is.
KB Olsen [03:44:33] I don't know, everyone has that to an extent, I guess. And you know, I, I think all, a lot of it is just like affirming an empathy. Like even just the. You can see how profoundly I was affected by having like a couple combos, like light combos with lds this in the last two days. I cannot imagine to have those be family members who you love and then to, you know, come on and share your story or to deconstruct and to go through that process. Like, I'm, I'm like, oh, no. Like so and so in the Uber is gonna listen to this and be like, you know, you're judging me.
KB Olsen [03:45:15] But so I think it's like a really, really difficult thing. And, and yeah, there's just like lots of levels of belonging and I Think that how belonging has been, like, described to us or framed, the images of belonging that we have aren't necessarily what makes us feel that we truly belong, if that makes sense.
KB Olsen [03:45:45] And as for, like, the exploration and, like, psychedelics. Yeah, it's. It's so funny. Like, even when you were talking about the secret lives wives, the wives going to Vegas, like, it's so not bad. Like, to me, I'm just like, you're like, that's so not Mormon. I'm like, that's so not anything. Like, that's just like, American capital. Like, I feel like a broken record, but I'm like, yeah, okay. Like, what it. Yeah, so just none of that stuff is. Is so, like, extreme or has to be seen as like, this.
KB Olsen [03:46:26] I don't know. I just. I guess I hope for taking shame away as, like, the organizing principle and recognizing how it arises in all these different situations. But I don't know, I guess I'm, like, right there with them as well. Like, I think pain is kind of the universal here. Like, one pain for the ways that you've been, like, complicit in a system. Pain for the ways that you don't belong. For realizing people, willingly or not, have lied to you, that also that you. You'll be misunderstood. The fear of being misunderstood. Like, all these things are just so painful. But I don't know, it's really, really inspiring to get to, like, reconstruction an entire worldview and to reconstruct what love is, what joy is, you know, that is like this incredible opportunity and gift.
KB Olsen [03:47:29] Like, that's. Yeah, just like a. A really valuable and precious time as well. Like, even when I look back at when I first came out, for example, and I was talking about just, like, not wanting to be, like, in the midst of a journey and feeling just, like, hot with shame that anyone could watch me reshape, you know, and now I'm just like, gosh, that was such, like, particular precious time. Because as you, like, collect, you know, these pebbles of self that you're gonna pile up or something.
KB Olsen [03:48:04] Like, you can't really, like, take that one. Like, you reclaim all of these things, reclaim them for the first time, and, like, that will be that moment in. Until you just, I guess, have to deconstruct everything again. I don't know. But I guess, like, those really painful times that, like, collecting of self is actually are, like, really precious and valuable thing.
Margi Dehlin [03:48:34] Yeah. Okay. I was gonna just make a comment. Sorry to go back to Secret lives of Mormon wives, but I mean, did I say mommy?
John Dehlin [03:48:42] Did I say the word mommy?
Margi Dehlin [03:48:43] No, I don't think you did.
John Dehlin [03:48:44] I was joking.
KB Olsen [03:48:46] Say mommy. Bloggers.
Margi Dehlin [03:48:51] But I was going to say just one thing to add about, you know, you talking about. Is it Mormon? Are they Mormon?
KB Olsen [03:49:01] Right?
Margi Dehlin [03:49:01] Are they. That comes up for me a little bit.
John Dehlin [03:49:04] I mean, stereotypically Mormon.
Margi Dehlin [03:49:06] Yeah, stereotypically. And whether this is. Is something that's misrepresentative as opposed to that. And I think that's a valid question. And so what I'm going to say here isn't meant to, like, invalidate that in any way. But one thing I do find value in with Heather Gay with Secret Lives of Mormon Wives is. And Ballerina Farm even, is this idea, particularly in Mormonism, when a woman identity is crafted and created and we'll say by patriarchy, by this system in such detail, with such control, to me, it's really symbolic and valuable to see women explore, differentiate, individuate in whatever way and still claim Mormonism.
KB Olsen [03:50:02] Absolutely.
Margi Dehlin [03:50:02] To me, it's an act of empowerment. It's an act of, like, I'll decide, I'll do. And in the face of all that we talk about within Mormon Mormonism, it. It still is rooted in Mormonism. You. You can't take that away from them. And therefore, you know, we can argue whether it's representative. But for me, as. As someone who is kind of watching this happen, I find it so, so valuable to have women who are exemplifying a journey unto themselves in many ways still, like, wrestling with that conditioning or trying to just, like, even oftentimes having ambivalence where they don't love the beauty thing, but they also really value the beauty thing.
Margi Dehlin [03:50:51] They want to be, you know, where that's. That you're witnessing they. Their attempts to, yeah. Deconstruct and kind of rebuild, but in a way that that's their own. And watching confusion and watching it in real time, all the things kind of play out. But ultimately it's about kind of reclaiming yourself in the face of a system and refusing to allow them to identify who you are.
KB Olsen [03:51:20] Totally. And I don't know, I guess there should be an examination of all of men's behavior that's hidden and whether that represents Mormons.
Margi Dehlin [03:51:31] Yeah, that's right.
KB Olsen [03:51:32] As opposed to women in a hot tub. Like, it's fine that they're in the hot tub. And I agree with you. Like, I think that this is just an interesting moment of forced flexibility where they've, like, found a way to, like, make so much money on TikTok and and be the ones who are the face of the faith. And that. That fundamentally is what's not Mormon to Mormon men.
Margi Dehlin [03:52:03] Yeah.
KB Olsen [03:52:04] It's like, oh, these women are the fate. Have the power to shed light on Mormonism, to bring people to even think of this faith, these circumstances, and these women are struggling, are in conflict with themselves, with that identity. And so, yeah, if they're the face of the conflict that it is to be a woman under Mormon patriarchy, like, yeah, I can see why orthodox Mormons are like, that's not. That's not us.
John Dehlin [03:52:37] But good point. I never thought about the fact that there's no real reality TV focus on Mormon men. And the only interest in Mormon men might be, like, David Archuleta or Benji Schwimmer, like, gay.
KB Olsen [03:52:52] Sure.
John Dehlin [03:52:52] Gay Mormon men or Tyler Glenn. You know what I mean?
KB Olsen [03:52:55] And even then, it's like, no one's talking about that. I see about how they're representing the church. And granted, they're not, like, faithful necessarily, but I think that also the fact that in these casts, there's women who are fully deconstructed and women who aren't. And then they set that up as kind of, you know, it was the Saints for sinners narrative. And. Yeah, I think showing that that's an option, that's an outcome probably feels like a threat and really dangerous.
Margi Dehlin [03:53:30] Yeah.
KB Olsen [03:53:31] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [03:53:32] Yep.
KB Olsen [03:53:33] But I agree. I think it's really important. And I. I don't know. I hope they all make a lot of money and divorce their husbands. I'm totally joking.
Worthiness, Conditioning, and What Religion Offers
Margi Dehlin [03:53:50] Okay, so I had a couple questions. Just coming back to your story a little bit. I feel like we've been able to touch on this idea that religion offers a conditioning of sorts and also other aspects of being alive. Offers and examples of this is like a family system offers conditioning of. Of a sort. You learn things about what safety means, what love means, what worth means.
KB Olsen [03:54:20] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [03:54:21] Even if it's a void of that. I think also American culture offers a sense of conditioning. What does success look like? What does it mean to have value in a culture? What it looks like very similar things. And I think it gets really tricky the more layers you experience. If you have this idea of if, for example, your worth is in being very productive and work oriented to the point of overworking, and you have it in religion, and then you have it in your family system, and then, you know, we have it in American culture. Right. It's. It becomes a lot trickier, I think, to deconstruct.
KB Olsen [03:55:06] Right.
Margi Dehlin [03:55:08] But I really liked you kind of talking to the point of, oh, I was conditioned. I didn't. I may not have had this religious conditioning aspect. Oh. But I definitely had. And I was thinking about your story a little bit with regard to moving to New York City.
Margi Dehlin [03:55:28] You know, really ending up at a magazine that everyone would recognize and having a moment also of. Of feeling like that Worth thing. It didn't fill you up. It. And I think that is an American also, this idea of formulas. Just do this, this, and this, and you will be happy, or you will be successful, or you will have made it, or this is the American dream, or. And then when you do the thing you're feeling like. And that's what I hear, you ended up at Vogue magazine, and you're thinking, no, I'm still. I don't feel worthy. And I don't understand why. Like, what would it feel like?
Margi Dehlin [03:56:07] Is that right? And then going and trying to add sort of this ancestral kind of to that. And then. And I just wanted to ask you, that's all. To context. To ask you what. How would you talk about your journey right now with Worth?
Margi Dehlin [03:56:28] Where do you find it? Have you. Are you working at rebuilding that? Have you. What are the pieces for you now? Where. You know, what. Have you found those little pieces that you've.
John Dehlin [03:56:41] Or are we just your grand distractions from self interest?
KB Olsen [03:56:45] No, no, you're. It's a. It's like. I think Mormonism's like the seltzer water in which I, you know, I'm not like, referencing, like, Swig or something. Like, you know, I put whatever the distilled question or experience or observation, I, like, put it in this bubbly Mormon context, and I kind of, like, see how it mixes together. And I don't know, it just is a way to observe the color of things or something. I don't know if that metaphor worked, but forgive me, Worth.
Margi Dehlin [03:57:23] Yeah.
KB Olsen [03:57:23] I mean, this is a challenge. It might.
Margi Dehlin [03:57:28] And it's totally okay if you're like, I'm living this question. I don't know the answer. I'm living the question.
KB Olsen [03:57:33] Taking. You know, I think there have been new attempts. Like, one. I think just the journey of meeting my wife and falling in love with her. And we just made an agreement at the beginning of our relationship. We have, like, a relationship motto, which is care to take care of. And it was just that we were going to orient ourselves towards caring for ourselves and each other. And,
John Dehlin [03:58:05] yeah.
KB Olsen [03:58:05] This mindset that I'm, like, Worth understanding and caring for. And even as we've brought our own conflict and family History and what have you to life. Over time, I just find myself feeling more and more like, loved and valued and actually trusting in that. So that's been great. I mean, also, like, we sort of embarked on, like, do. We moved out of the city together, first of all. So I left New York. And I think that having. Leaving that as my identity and like, the part that made me really special and exceptional, that making it there meant that I, you know, was among a chosen group. Right. Was really important because I did feel extremely disoriented and devalued. Being outside the city and telling people that. I mean, it sounds so cooked, right? Like, oh, you have to cross a bridge. But that, that really was because.
John Dehlin [03:59:13] You mean like, Brooklyn when you say moving out of the city.
KB Olsen [03:59:15] No, no, I. I was already in Brooklyn. I mean, though, that was. No, no.
Margi Dehlin [03:59:19] Yeah. No, that makes sen to me.
KB Olsen [03:59:21] And then I think, like, being back in nature, I just hadn't spent any of my adulthood in a place where there were, you know, massive trees. And it's just like, it was always like, a treat for the weekend is like, getting to nature.
KB Olsen [03:59:39] And granted, there's like, some wonderful things about New York. I. I loved the time that I spent there. But I do think that was, like, just interesting to see that pleasure, joy, all these things could come from habits that are new hobbies and things that I just wasn't doing before.
KB Olsen [04:00:01] And I think just the attempt to piece something new together, like one of my most beloved hobbies and part of why I was, like, so interested to see artifacts. And in the pioneer museum where I live along the Hudson river, There were these 19th century fishing villages that were on the river back in the day, and they, like, put in a highway and they threw everything in the river just to do a short version of the story. But down on this beach near where I live, I can collect all of these old shards of, like, pottery and buttons, kind of these remnants of people, like fragments.
KB Olsen [04:00:45] And I just think about, like, oh, when's the last time this was, like, touched and part of an assemblage of like, a dinner or organized and now, like, what is the beauty of it in a fragment? And I don't, like, have the answer yet. I haven't figured out, like, how to incorporate that into some kind of art or something, but just like, the habit of looking down into the sand and like, looking, flipping things over and like, being stunned by little pieces of color and beauty that makes me feel like whatever I'm collecting and doing has worth. And then I think the Last part is, well, two things.
KB Olsen [04:01:24] Like, one is the humility of just, like, tending to a body. Like, come, I'm going to be 38 in July. And I won't say I've had, like, a midlife crisis, but there's just, like, a reality, a corporeal reality. Like, I'm in a body that it's not just going to be something I cannot think about.
KB Olsen [04:01:43] So I feel, like, worth it because I have to, like, think about my health, think about what I'm eating, and then also just making art. Like, the feature script that I finished recently is a horror take on the Devil Wears Prada. Like, it uses that Vogue dream as this piece of American folklore and, like, process it through a horror story. And in the end, like, you know, it's not even about Vogue or my experience specifically there. It is about reconciling that dream and also these, like, matrilineal inheritances. Right. So this character, the main character is actually from a religious upbringing, and she kind of goes from, like, one cult to another and.
KB Olsen [04:02:33] Yeah, just kind of like what we're given in terms of the definition of womanhood in these extreme circumstances. So that's, I think, been cathartic and really interesting.
Margi Dehlin [04:02:46] Yeah.
KB Olsen [04:02:48] So that's that. But I also just have no idea. But that's. I also feel, like, some peace with that, which is great. Like, I'm not waiting for love. I'm not looking for it from people who, like, are not gonna give it to me.
Margi Dehlin [04:02:59] Right.
John Dehlin [04:03:00] Or worth or value.
KB Olsen [04:03:01] Yeah, you're worth or value. Yeah. Like, I feel pretty clear on. Like, I. I've said to my wife recently, I'm, like, the people I love know that I love them. And that felt like a resolution of something for me. I'm like, oh, okay. Like, I can rest on a level that. That. That's clear, I guess.
Margi Dehlin [04:03:23] Yeah.
KB Olsen [04:03:23] Whereas before it was like, oh, am I actually able to show people, like, can they see it? And, you know, it was, like, really unclear to me. And now. Now it is much clearer.
Margi Dehlin [04:03:32] So that's beautiful. And then I also wanted to ask you. You know, we talked about, you know, I. I imagine some. Some people get to have a. A blueprint of love. We all have a. We all kind of get a blueprint.
KB Olsen [04:03:51] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [04:03:52] But let's say a really healthy, great, fit love blueprint right from our. From our childhood. The rest, you kind of have to create your own. So up till till now with your wife, what would you. How would you talk about what good love. What good love feels like for you? When you feel it, what you've created, you gave us a little bit. I love the. Is it take care to take care to take care. And I love that because you can, you can also. It's great relationship wise, but it's also great for a relationship with yourself. Care to take care as well. But I would just love to hear your blueprint so far of, you know, love for you. A good fit of love. What does it look like? What does it feel like?
KB Olsen [04:04:51] I think separating out shame has been like a really important process and just recognizing times that shame arises and pretty much it's always meant to curb some, like, exhaling into love for myself. Right. It's like a. No, no, not yet. So that's been valuable. And I see like partnership as being with someone where over time I've learned to trust that she wants that for me. You know, she doesn't want me to curb my, like, expansion in any way. And also that there's like, possibility for healthy repair because there isn't an existence without conflict and misunderstanding. And it was like such a horrible fear of mine to be misunderstood. And now, you know, misunderstanding just doesn't feel like the end of the world.
Margi Dehlin [04:06:01] Yeah.
KB Olsen [04:06:01] Anymore. And that's been very profound. And then also being like unapologetic about the agenda for our own pleasure, which is not to say that we disregard responsibility or, you know, neglect our community or something, but that whenever we are planning something, imagining something, even just like doing small tasks in our life, it's just like an agreement we have that we want to make that as if not pleasurable, just like peaceful as possible. We both want that.
KB Olsen [04:06:51] And that's like, you know, it. It's a process. Like it took a long time to clarify what that want would be and where it was shared and. And you know, also like, you know, I feel like people are like celebrating your true self. But like, my wife is like, yeah, go to Salt Lake and like, figure out like, there's gotta. There's something about this interest in Mormonism, for example. Like, get into it. Like, if you can't get out of it, get into it. Like that mentality of like, whatever you're grappling with, like, pain again, is the universal. There will be pain. But I don't know, having love that is like illuminating that pain and just sort of like making it okay, I guess.
KB Olsen [04:07:40] Yes, that's the blueprint now. I mean, we also live such a. It's like we look at each other all the time and we're like, how is our life so I don't even want to say comfortable. Just like pleasant. Like we've just every single choice was like how do we like keep this pleasant for us? Not again, not at the like sacrifice of things that need to be like seen or addressed that are unpleasant.
Margi Dehlin [04:08:07] Right. Not avoidant.
KB Olsen [04:08:08] Not avoidant. But.
Margi Dehlin [04:08:12] But maybe prioritizing.
KB Olsen [04:08:14] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [04:08:15] It feeling peaceful.
KB Olsen [04:08:17] Yeah. And it really, it really is. I didn't think this would be possible. It's like the achievement of my life thus far, like the ultimate art project has been to construct this love and trust and to like actually experience that and know it. It makes, It just makes me feel really human actually. It like answers that in a, in a big way that I grappled with for a long time.
Margi Dehlin [04:08:47] Yeah.
KB Olsen [04:08:47] I just didn't know if it was possible. Like I didn't know what I was seeking. Right.
Margi Dehlin [04:08:50] So
KB Olsen [04:08:53] yeah, that's big. Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [04:08:58] That's a really big thing to build and create for yourself. Yeah.
KB Olsen [04:09:04] Yeah. So.
John Dehlin [04:09:05] And somehow Mormonism's been a part of that journey for you somehow.
KB Olsen [04:09:10] Yeah.
John Dehlin [04:09:11] Would you say it's.
Margi Dehlin [04:09:12] Yeah.
KB Olsen [04:09:13] Studying Mormonism has been helpful one I think like. Okay. Gravitating towards something that's really interesting and slowly. It was kind of like just this weird secret I had. I don't know how to explain because it's like I had no business being interested and over time like finding I guess like you know, just feeling like I'm going to make this interesting. Like I know, I know what I'm like seeing here is really interesting. I'm going to talk to many different people about it and like something always comes from it Again because I think there's this potency of like themes, the themes.
KB Olsen [04:09:56] And also it has provided comfort for me like Mormon stories has I think also like on another level in the dissolution of media and like trust in media and the value journalistic values that I was, that I was brought up with. No, but I did study journalism and I do think having this like model of integrity for like having people speak, not having a time limit like that is a really invaluable and under practiced like it's also like a trust in human attention that I think is important and has helped me kind of value some of the things that have been a long burn in my life to like understand or achieve or do.
KB Olsen [04:10:45] And yeah, just all the freaky stuff that's really funny, funny to learn about. And now hopefully I'll find my, my fellow freaks and we'll understand ourselves a little better.
John Dehlin [04:11:02] It will be a moment of great joy for Me. If at some point, as you're traveling around New York, New England, somebody recognizes you and says, hey, weren't you on Mormon stories? I doubt that'll ever happen, but if it happens, if that happens, I want you to text or call me.
KB Olsen [04:11:18] I will have to report it immediately. And yeah, if nothing else, just.
Margi Dehlin [04:11:26] Yeah, it's.
KB Olsen [04:11:27] It's fascinating. Like, that's cool. It's cool to be interested in things.
Margi Dehlin [04:11:33] Yeah.
KB Olsen [04:11:34] It's cool to like, stuff and have questions. Like, it is. That's really.
Margi Dehlin [04:11:42] Yeah.
KB Olsen [04:11:43] I feel like that's like one of the coolest things about me is I'm obsessed with Mormons.
John Dehlin [04:11:46] Yeah, well, we like that about you, too. That's why we had you here today.
KB Olsen [04:11:52] One of the many things anyone's still wondering why I'm here. I can't help you. I tried my best.
John Dehlin [04:11:58] I just really quickly, those three words of curb your expansion.
KB Olsen [04:12:02] Yeah.
John Dehlin [04:12:03] Was a great way to reduce so many people's Mormon experience. That Mormonism wants you to curb your expansion.
KB Olsen [04:12:11] Yeah.
John Dehlin [04:12:12] That was a moment of clarity for me.
KB Olsen [04:12:15] So true. I mean, the garments are the, like the fabric of that. It's like there's just so much that then feels that way and. Oh my gosh. But it's like so beautiful to step out to have your Truman show moment. That's like one of my favorite films. That in the Matrix. So unsurprising, these in the Village.
John Dehlin [04:12:39] It's all the same story.
KB Olsen [04:12:40] Village was so bad. No. Yeah. It's all the same story. Like that's the Bible, like, you know, that's like the archetypes of all of these stories.
John Dehlin [04:12:50] Like Card of Eden.
KB Olsen [04:12:51] Yeah, yeah. Blaming women. Exactly. That's always the story.
John Dehlin [04:12:55] No, Pleasantville, Tangled.
KB Olsen [04:12:57] Yeah. Yeah. It's true. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Closing Reflections and Sign-Off
John Dehlin [04:13:05] Well, Catherine, Bernardo, Olson or kb. We've gone about four and a half hours.
KB Olsen [04:13:11] Oh, my gosh.
John Dehlin [04:13:12] So that's as Mormon stories as it comes.
KB Olsen [04:13:15] For sure. I've really lived it now. What were you saying? Like. Oh, yeah, I think three max.
John Dehlin [04:13:21] Well, Margi's still with us, so you. We did something right. Because Marty these days.
KB Olsen [04:13:26] I'm honored, says I.
John Dehlin [04:13:27] You know, at 4 I may. Peace out. So you're still here.
KB Olsen [04:13:29] I genuinely don't know how you like do this as much as you do. I know you don't know how you do either, though. So
John Dehlin [04:13:40] Margi was saying yesterday with some friends that one of the things she doesn't like about this job is when I take it too long. Is that fair? That fair to say? Is that okay to say?
Margi Dehlin [04:13:51] That is. Okay. We'll have Brooklyn cut it. No.
John Dehlin [04:13:57] Well, kb, what an honor to have you think about us, care about us, but mostly being willing to take time out of your schedule, vacation days, whatever, and come out here and be vulnerable and share your story and your insight and your perspective with us.
KB Olsen [04:14:15] Yeah, I hope it, you know, I'm very curious to see how the series evolves in hearing what the fascination is. I know I'm not alone and it was just a massive honor. It feels like some really. It still feels kind of surreal to be talking to you having felt like so distant from any of the subject matter. So that's just been like incredibly fun and yeah, this has been great.
Margi Dehlin [04:14:47] Thank you. Thank you for coming. You are a breath of fresh air.
KB Olsen [04:14:50] Oh my gosh.
Margi Dehlin [04:14:51] Really?
KB Olsen [04:14:52] Yeah. And hopefully I get to claim being the Neverest Mormon and really, really special for a while. We'll see. We'll see if someone takes the title soon.
John Dehlin [04:15:00] Yeah. Well, if you think you're more Neverest of a Never Mormon than kb and we want to hear from you.
KB Olsen [04:15:07] Yeah, it's a challenge.
John Dehlin [04:15:10] No, but thank you. Thank you, kb. Thank you.
KB Olsen [04:15:12] Thank you so much. Thanks.
John Dehlin [04:15:15] And oh, if people want to follow you or hire you or promote you or give you money or whatever.
KB Olsen [04:15:21] Oh my gosh, please.
John Dehlin [04:15:23] All the things.
KB Olsen [04:15:24] Hire me. I'm a freelancer. You're like, oh, your vacation days. No, I have not had a vacation day or insurance or anything in a long time. You can go to my, you can email me, honestly, just kb@catherinebernard.com trusting you all with my email.
John Dehlin [04:15:44] And that's your website. Catherine Bernard.
KB Olsen [04:15:46] Yes. And my, honestly, I'm like not really on Instagram anymore. I'm tired. So. Yeah, I don't know.
Margi Dehlin [04:15:53] It's valid.
KB Olsen [04:15:54] Google me. No, I'm just saying. But I'd love, I would love to hear from people, from my people, the Mormons now, but other people who are fans and yeah, I'm available for projects, ideas, thoughts.
John Dehlin [04:16:09] Do you want to, like, would you want to be. Let's just say I could wave a magic wand and you could be a social media influencer talking about Mormonism TikTok or Instagram or a YouTube channel or like, or a book someday a book or magazine articles. Do you want to create, you know, Mormon ish themed content at some point?
KB Olsen [04:16:31] I mean, I think the theme, the bigger theme of like questioning reality. Yes, absolutely. And I, I now have this bank of knowledge. So like, sure. Again, I haven't felt like I had the right, I guess to put myself Forth as like a commentator of sorts, apart from like the entertainment commentary. But it's deeper than that. And I don't know if people always have like the attention span for that, the level of context it would take for me to be like KB's take on Mormons, you know. But yeah, I mean, I again, for whatever reason, the subject matter like lights a fire in me. So for something I would totally consider
John Dehlin [04:17:17] so you come on a panel at
KB Olsen [04:17:19] a minimum, if you don't invite me on a panel and I give you a light bulb moment, it's like I'm dead to you pretty much.
John Dehlin [04:17:24] Okay, well, if Mormons can become the new chosen of God, you can be a commentary person on Mormonism.
KB Olsen [04:17:32] Exactly. Exactly.
John Dehlin [04:17:33] All right, thanks, kb.
KB Olsen [04:17:35] Thank you.
John Dehlin [04:17:36] Thanks, Margi.
Margi Dehlin [04:17:37] Yeah, of course.
John Dehlin [04:17:39] And thanks for joining us. And really quickly, please subscribe to this channel. Please like it that helps with the algorithms. Please comment, please share. All that stuff's really valuable if you're a donor. Thank you for donating. You make all this possible. If you don't donate and you want to see content like this continue, you can go to MormonStories.org and become a monthly donor. If you want to be on Mormon Stories and you are never Mormon or a Mormon or an ex Mormon or member of some other high demand religion or cult or whatever, faithful orthodox Mormon, we want to hear from you, you can do exactly what KB did.
John Dehlin [04:18:15] You can go to MormonStories.org, click on the apply button, record a three minute video. You will not be likely accepted if you don't create that three minute video. Some people just post or paste links to random stuff they do on social media and think that that's going to be sufficient. If you don't create a three minute video audition video for Mormon stories, there's like a 1% chance you'll be accepted or less closer to zero than one. So fill out the application, make the video apply and we would love to consider you. Anything else you want to add to that, Margi?
Margi Dehlin [04:18:53] I don't think so, Margi.
John Dehlin [04:18:54] Vets is the first round vetter of those applications.
Margi Dehlin [04:18:59] True.
John Dehlin [04:19:00] So please apply and then yeah. I hope you've enjoyed today's episode. Email us if you have feedback@mormonstoriesmail.com and yeah, we'd love to hear your feedback and other ideas. And again, if you have ideas for good episodes or feedback about this episode, comment on the YouTube channel or on Spotify. Yeah, so that's it. Thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Be good to each other, be kind to each other. We hope to see you all back soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. And we hope to see KB back as a panelist on future Mormon Stories episodes as well. Right.
KB Olsen [04:19:37] See you there.
John Dehlin [04:19:38] All right, take care, everybody.
Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.
Thumbnail Credits: Main image provided by KB Olsen; Background image from National Park Service
One Response
I loved this interview! About a third the way through KB started exploring why she found it so fascinating to listen to Mormon stories and it clicked for me why, even though I have been out of the church almost 20 years, I find these stories so fascinating. It is not about me questioning my own position or not being able to move on with my own life and leave Mormonism alone, but rather about seeing the vulnerability of human nature in others. It is fascinating to hear the stories of people who become self-aware and break out of a religious belief system that they had earlier been convinced was the one right way to think. It is about how they face the challenges of living a secular life without the support provided previously by a supportive religion. Some of us constantly are revising our identities and views of the world. To get such honest stories from others of their processes helps us to see our own vulnerabilities, to accept the tentativeness of life, and to celebrate the vulnerable steps and stories of others. Thanks KB for providing me with an answer for why I still listen to Mormon Stories. It isn’t because I doubt my choices or that I still want to reconnect with Mormonism or that I can’t leave it alone, but rather because I’m fascinated with the human processes and developmental processes of our individual self-journeys. What Mormon Stories does here and the willingness of former Mormons to vulnerably share their stories provides a constant supply of unique, honest stories of other’s life journeys, which is fascinating insight into very human stories. What a beautiful gift to those of us who love to hear such authenticity in all its various forms!