Introducing the Joseph Smith Podcast Series

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast and an exciting new project that we're launching today. I'm calling it Joseph Smith the Podcast. Today we are going to be launching what I hope to be a new weekly podcast kind of in the same vein as the LDS discussion series or the series with Dr. Matthew Harris on Second Class Saints where we are going to, you know, it's all being released as part of the Mormon Stories podcast, but it will also be released as its own podcast, Joseph Smith the Podcast. And you know, for a long, long time people have been interested in the life of Joseph Smith and we've done infinite episodes on Mormon stories about Joseph Smith and other podcasts cover Joseph Smith. But, but you know, what the world doesn't have is a dedicated podcast focusing on the life and the history and the truth claims and the controversy of Joseph Smith, the founding prophet of what is now named the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. So that's what we're launching and it's anticipated to be an interview and, and or a panel format again just like the LDS discussion series or the series with Dr. Matt Harris. And I've decided for the inaugural, first, at least 10, if not more episodes of Joseph the Podcast, we are going to be covering a brand new book that is about to be released. It's by Yale University Press. It's a brand new biography of Joseph Smith and it's called Joseph Smith the Rise and Fall of an American Prophet by Dr. John G. Turner, who is also the author of a really well received and fascinating biography on Brigham Young. So in the show notes there is going to be a link to Yale University Press where you can purchase this book, pre order this book if it hasn't been released yet. So please take your time right now and purchase this book. I'm already a couple chapters in and I can tell you it's absolutely worth it. Even if you've read no Man Knows My History, even if you've read Dan Vogel's books on Joseph Smith, even if you've read Richard Bushman's Rough Stone Rolling and I would say, especially if you've read those books, this is an important addition to the Joseph. It's an essential addition to the catalog library of biographies on Joseph Smith. Excuse me, I have a bit of a cold. In addition, I want to say that this is a pilot podcast series because the only way that we are going to be able to continue this podcast past the first few episodes is if you step up and become a donor to the series. Just like with, again, the Matt Harris series or the John Larsen series or LDS discussions. The way that you do that is you go to donorbox.org donorbox.org Joseph Smith and sign up to become a monthly donor. We've committed to Dr. Turner, John, that for as long as he's participating in this podcast, we're going to pay him half of all your donations, and then half will go to my time and to all the production expenses for producing a podcast. And so you can know that you're donating to a nonprofit, that the author, the creator, the researcher is going to benefit heavily from your donations. And we, of course, will. That will also help make this podcast sustainable. And we'll just continue this project, Joseph Smith the Podcast, for as long as there's interest or demand. Okay, so that's why we're doing a podcast on Joseph Smith. And I'll just add one more thing. Partly why I'm so excited to have John Turner on the podcast is that in my opinion, he follows an important tradition in Mormon Stories Podcast. For those of you who remember the episodes I did with Dr. Michael Koh, the Yale anthropologist who was willing to share his expertise on Book of Mormon historicity and Mesoamerican archeology, in my opinion, that's one of the most important series I've ever done on Mormon Stories to this date, with over 2000 episodes now recorded. And of course, the epic series with Egyptologist, the late Dr. Robert Rittner was an essential series as it related to Book of Abraham historicity. And so, you know, there's nothing more than I love on Mormon Stories podcast than having outsiders, scholars who are reputable, who are committed to objectivity and neutrality and to all the values of their scholarship and their trade, just doing their best to analyze various aspects of Mormonism, calling balls and strikes, and willing to share with us their outsider view. So that's why I'm super excited to have John Turner on to kick off this podcast in this series. With this series, we want to do an even better job than we did with Matt Harris and with the LDS discussion series. We want to be as neutral and as objective as possible, while still, you know, rooted in the. In the archives, rooted in the history, be able to give thoughtful analysis to Joseph Smith's truth claims, to his intentions, to his sincerity, and to balance all that with the goals of scholarship. So that's my stated intentions, and that's why I'm excited to have Dr. John Turner on Mormon Stories. So now, without any further ado, John Turner and I Should say welcome back to Mormon Stories because I believe we've interviewed you before on Mormon Stories about your Brigham Young biography. Do I have that right?

John Turner [00:06:43] It was many moons ago, John, So that was 12 or 13 years ago, which seems like half a lifetime.

John Dehlin [00:06:51] And if I remember right, we recorded it once and the recording got botched and we had to rerecord a second interview, which really bummed me out at the time.

John Turner [00:06:58] Yeah. But it probably gave me a chance to avoid the stupid things I said the first time around and to do it better. So that's okay. Hopefully we won't do that this time, though.

John Dehlin [00:07:08] Absolutely. We've got better systems now. All right, well, John Turner, you were able to hear that long intro. I think it's important to kick off the series with some intentions and of course, to get people to buy your book and to, to, to, to request financial support for the series because we believe scholars should be paid better than they're paid. But what would you like to add, edit, or remove from my introduction? Because I, I want you to have strong input and editorial control over what we talk about today.

John Turner's Background and Approach to the Book

John Turner [00:07:44] I guess the only thing I'd, I'd add is almost everything about Joseph Smith's life is full of controversy. And they're not just two opinions about any of those subjects. There are lots of them, and I'm excited to share my interpretation of Joseph Smith. One of the things I love about history, and honestly about Mormon history in particular, is that it's a really accessible time discipline, and there are now so many sources that are available and easily accessible about Joseph Smith's life. And I love chatting with people about this subject. And so I'm excited to chat with you. I also encourage your listeners if you have opinions, if you have questions. I know they know how to get in touch with you, John, but I'm not too easy to. I mean, I'm not too hard to track down either. And I, I welcome hearing from your audience and, you know, engaging with them.

John Dehlin [00:08:52] Do you want to read off your, your email? Is that too weird? Or do you. Would you rather just put it in the show notes?

John Turner [00:08:59] That's totally fine. It's, it's jg turner52mail.com but also, if people just Google John Turner, George Mason, they could, they could find me. They can't really find me on social media, so they gotta find me by, by email or in person.

John Dehlin [00:09:15] Oh, well, that answers one of the next questions I was going to ask, which was, Tavi, just tell us a little bit about your background and then how you got into Mormon studies. Can we start there?

John Turner [00:09:27] Sure. I mean, it's the least interesting thing we're going to talk about, but

John Dehlin [00:09:34] if

John Turner [00:09:35] you want to inflict that on people, that's fine. I guess I'll connect my background to Mormon history in a very small but significant geographic way. So I grew up outside of Rochester, New York, so I like to say about 45 minutes from where all of this got started. And, you know, the interesting thing is growing up there, I never learned anything about Joseph Smith or the church that he founded. And it really wasn't until I got to graduate school at the University of Notre Dame, where Mormon history really got on my radar screen. I had some graduate school classmates who are Latter Day Saints, people like Patrick Mason and Matt Grow, and simply getting to know them got got me curious studying the history of religion in the United States. Also. It's hard, you know, hard not to get a little captivated by the 19th century story of Mormonism. And that wasn't what I researched and wrote about as a PhD student. But then afterwards, when I was trying to figure out what I wanted to do for a second project, I was interested in the intersection of Mormonism and conservative politics in the United States. And it was about 2007, and so that would have been a really smart project. But I thought if I was going to write about this tradition, I needed to understand its 19th century history. And I simply started reading everything I could find. And I read some existing biographies of Joseph, excuse me, of Brigham Young, found him just remarkably intriguing figure. And, you know, that, that really got me hooked. And so here I am almost two decades later, and I'm, I'm still hooked on this stuff.

John Dehlin [00:11:48] I love it. Okay. Okay, great. Do you want to. So you're a, you're a professor at George Mason University. Is, is Mormon studies your, like, 50% of what, what you've researched and published? Is it, you know, 80%, 100% like. And then also, do you want to talk about the Brigham Young biography at all real quick?

John Turner [00:12:14] I guess I would say Mormon history has been about 60% of my research and writing career. I've also written books on American evangelicalism. I also wrote a history of plural Plymouth Colony. I'm, I'm interested more generally in, you know, groups that sort of, you know, have that sort of dual experience as persecuted minorities who also then end up structuring societies on their own. You know, that was true of the Pilgrims as well as of the Latter Day Saints. So there have been a few thematic things that have spanned my projects. I'll just say about Brigham. Let me just say something about the difference between writing about Brigham Young and writing about Joseph Smith. For me, they both were enormously fun projects. Brigham Young was a complete mountain of archival material. I mean, he lived so much longer than Joseph Smith. There were simply so many new or really underutilized sources. It was both a huge opportunity and a huge challenge. With Joseph Smith, the terrain is a little bit more familiar to people. There's not quite such a mountain of material, but there's a lot, and a lot of it's been excavated by other historians and researchers. I'd also say, thematically, writing about Brigham Young, I didn't have to engage some of the truth claims that you referenced in your introduction. I mean, Brigham Young very much was a believer in Joseph Smith as a prophet and in the doctrines that he had introduced. So some of the really sticky wicket questions I could sort of set aside and get on with telling the story of Brigham's life. And I saw Joseph Smith as a bigger interpretive challenge for a historian. It was a really different sort of project. But they're both really fun individuals to research. I don't know if that makes sense to you. You know, I never got. Got bored with. With either subject.

John Dehlin [00:15:10] Oh, that. That makes total sense to me really quickly. My. My research on Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and. And I did a lot of it back in the early 2000s. Didn't. Didn't. Didn't subsequent Mormon presidents of the church sort of not really refer to themselves as prophetic, want themselves to be referred as prophets? After Joseph died, Wasn't it sort of like Joseph was the prophet and then subsequent presidents were more referred to as presidents than prophets, at least in title. Do I have that right?

John Turner [00:15:47] You know, I'm not 100% sure I think you're right. And I do think that's also changed a bit in recent decades. Again, you know, I thought Brigham Young, he was, you know, he had such a great sense of humor, and so he could. I think he could talk almost, and I don't mean this in a negative way. He could talk out of both sides of his mouth on that particular issue. He would sometimes refer to himself as a Yankee guesser rather than a prophet. But at the same time, he told his followers to regard his words as scripture. So I don't think he had any doubt about his own prophetic mantle. He could just, you know, he. He understood there was, in his mind, there was a. At least a difference in prophetic style that separated Joseph from him.

John Dehlin [00:16:42] Got it. All right, well, let's jump in to, to the book. And today, you know, we're going to try and cover kind of the introduction, some of the background, and then chapter one of Joseph Smith, the Rise and Fall of an American Prophet by Yale University Press. And let me just start by saying, John, of all the things you could dig into, as I mentioned, Von Brody wrote no man knows my History. Donna Hill wrote a biography on Joseph Smith. Richard Bushman did Rough Stone Rolling. Dan Vogel's written several books on Joseph Smith. Why would anyone think to tackle a Joseph Smith biography in 2025 or the years leading up to it when there might be so much fertile ground elsewhere? It's kind of a bold decision, honestly, from a layperson's point of view. So why don't you talk about the scholarly ground that came before anything you want to say about resources or inspiration, et cetera, and what made you decide to write this book?

Why Write a New Joseph Smith Biography

John Turner [00:17:54] Yeah, first of all, I'd say I wasn't writing the book in response to other existing biographies. I mean, if anything, the fact that all of the books you mentioned have had really long shelf lives, it suggests there's a real appetite and readership for fresh interpretations of Joseph Smith. So I didn't think the marketplace was saturated. And then I think I'd also say for a figure like Joseph Smith, he has such a wide ranging and capacious life, there's just room for a lot of interpretations. And I'll just say something about a couple of the books that you mentioned. It's perhaps a little bit hard to believe, but it's been 80 years since the publication of no Man Knows My History. And it's a wonderful, wonderfully written book. Fawn Brody, her mastery of prose is pretty tough to match, but that's 80 years ago. And so there have been so many advances in terms of access to sources about Joseph Smith's life And those intervening 80 years, hers is, I think, still the go to scholarly biography written by someone who's not a faithful Latter Day Saint. I think it's the first thing that a lot of people turn to. And I do think it's a bit out of date after 80 years. I don't think that's, that's, that's not a negative comment on my part. I, you know, and then I'd say, you know, Richard Bushman real quick.

Evaluating Previous Joseph Smith Biographers

John Dehlin [00:20:07] Can I ask you a question about that before we jump in, John? So I, I would love your opinion on, on some of the criticism of Fawn Brody just as again, Calling balls and strikes as a neutral observer, I think, let's just say people angry at Mormonism or critics of Mormonism or critics of Joseph Smith would say, oh, Fawn Brody's amazing and she was a great historian. And by the way, she was able to figure out that Thomas Jefferson fathered children with slave Sally Hemings and she was a legend and her book withstands the test of time, blah, blah, blah. And then of course, critics, the Mormon Church and apologists for, you know, including Hugh Nibley for many, many years would say, oh, she was biased and she had an ax to grind. And the psychobiography stuff is garbage because she tried to, you know, psychoanalyze Joseph Smith with Freudian analysis. And, you know, she, she was an inaccurate scholar and her, her garbage, her, her scholarship was kind of trash and biased and, and that sort of thing. As an anti Mormon, how would you call balls and strikes on either of those sort of perspectives on. Fine. Brody.

John Turner [00:21:31] Sure. So that's a great question. So, yeah, Hugh Nibley. No, ma', am, that's not history. I mean, that's a. First of all, that's a really condescending, negative review. So I would say that some of the things that Fawn Brodie concluded really have stood the test of time. So she was writing really about the time that most people abandoned the Spalding thesis about the Book of Mormon. So, I mean, I think in a way, she could be a very careful historian. I think the reality is she, you know, people talk about the access that she got to church records for being David O. McKay's niece, but the reality is there were so many things she didn't have access to. So, you know, in the, it's the second, in the second edition of her book, I think she's able to write about the earlier 1832, partly handwritten history that Joseph Smith pens. I mean, that's something she didn't have access to when she first wrote no man knows my history. So she had some real obstacles and handicaps. That's the first thing I would stress. I'm also not, I'm not a huge fan of either, you know, psychological diagnosis or even sometimes medical diagnosis, you know, 150, 200 years after somebody's lifetime. So, you know, I share some concerns about that. I think also another, another area in which we simply know a lot more than she did is we know a lot more about Joseph Smith's practice of plural marriage. That's something that has been increasingly well documented in recent decades to the point where historians and other scholars, they don't have to depend as much on rumor. There are just a lot of documents that one can cite. And so I think that's another area in which her account is necessarily limited. Love it.

John Dehlin [00:24:07] Okay, cool. Okay. You were going to, I think. Were you going to go to Rough Stone Rolling next? Is that right?

John Turner [00:24:14] I was going to go to Rough Stone Rolling, yeah. And I don't know, I mean, you'll get a sense of my. Maybe my personality or just my approach here. John, is. I mean, I'm a big admirer of both Von Brody and Richard Bushman. I mean, it's not easy writing a biography of Joseph Smith. So, you know, I see a lot more to admire in both cases, despite the very different vantage points. So unlike Fawn Brody, Richard Bushman had tremendous access and in many instances, access to documents that then later became publicly available and annotated through the Joseph Smith Papers Project. So the obstacles and handicaps that Fawn Brody had, Richard Bushman didn't have. So his biography is very much up to date in terms of sources. And I would also say that one of the great strengths of Rough Stone Rolling is Bushman's ability to situate Joseph Smith in his early 19th century religious and cultural context. That was Richard Bushman's background as a historian. I mean, first of all, he worked in an earlier time period, but he was very attuned to the culture of early 19th century America. So his biography is very much expert in that sense. And he's a very different sort of writer than Fawn Brodie, but he's also an outstanding narrator. So again, I think there's a lot to admire. So I'll just mention two areas in which my own approach is a bit different, or maybe three areas. Richard Bushman's very upfront about the fact that he is a believing Latter Day Saint and privileges evidence from those individuals who were close, closest to Joseph and believed in his identity as a prophet. So that's not my background. And so my. My approach is a bit different. Secondly, Rough Stone Rolling is a long book, right? It's, I don't know, 550 pages, something like that. I, from the start wanted to write something that was shorter, that I thought in its pacing reflected Joseph Smith's own kinetic approach to life. So that's a second difference. And I'd say thirdly, and I've heard Richard Bushman talk about this himself, I do spend relatively more time and pages on polygamy. I think that's something for which there's a lot of evidence and a lot to say about it. And I do more of that than Bushman.

John Dehlin [00:27:48] Got it. Okay. If somebody, again, obviously Richard Bushman is a Harvard Columbia level historian. And so I haven't really heard credible attacks against his scholarship, although I have heard from the critical or the, let's just say ex Mormon or critical Joseph Smith side people, and maybe even myself at times sort of say Bushman's a little more apologetic than we would want for a scholar at his level. I understand that he sort of prefaces the book by saying that he is a believer and so forth, but what would you say to the accusation that some levy that Bushman is more apologetic than they would like for a scholar?

John Turner [00:28:45] Yeah, I mean, I think that's true. I will say, I think there are portions of rough stone rolling where that's more evident than others. For instance, I think the chapter on the Book of Mormon I would put into that category. I also perhaps the discussion of plural marriage as well. I mean, I don't tend to see apologetics as a dirty word or absolutely antithetical to good scholarship. What I think is important, and I think Richard Bushman's very forthright about this, is you've got to be transparent about where you're coming from. And that helps people assess your interpretation of the evidence. And so he is writing from a particular point of view, as was Fawn Brody. As am I. And I actually, you know, I have this crazy idea that the good thing about history is, is there's always room for room for more. And it would have been so much more difficult and would have taken many more years for me to write my biography were it not for Richard Bushman, were it not for Dan Vogel, both through his books, but also through his documentary editions. And there are a lot of other examples as well. So I think we get a little bit closer to the truth, if you will, through a clash of perspectives and different readings of evidence. And that that helps all of us think through that evidence more fully. Because we all miss things, we all overlook things, maybe sometimes we leave out things, but oftentimes nobody can fully survey the landscape on his or her own. So I think that's a great thing about the discipline of history.

John Dehlin [00:31:01] That sounds very Hegelian. We're talking thesis and antithesis and synthesis. Is that what you're saying?

John Turner [00:31:07] Yes, I mean, something like that. I think it's not as tidy. Right. You know, in the case of Joseph Smith, it's sort of easy to think, well, you know, there are faithful historians and then there are others, but in reality, even if you, if, if you drill down like that group of faithful historians, they actually have a lot of different opinions about some of the key moments of Joseph Smith's life. And I think the same is true for people who are former Latter Day Saints or don't have any particular personal connection to the tradition.

John Dehlin [00:31:47] Well, just because Dan Vogel is a friend of the show, he's been on Mormon stories a lot and he's done a lot of work, even though you just mentioned him. And I appreciated that. Do you have anything else to say about Dan Vogel's contributions to this conversation? Because I do tend to think he often his work gets ignored in the conversation and definitely within sort of the faithful Mormon and, or apologetic community. I think he's just dismissed too often, especially by apologetic Mormons, as being anti Mormon and not even worth consideration.

John Turner [00:32:27] Yeah, well, I mean, that's, that's unfair. I mean, first of all, I think anyone who works in this time period has relied pretty heavily on his early Mormon documents volumes. I also love his volumes on the history of, of the Church. I guess, John, you're just getting the impression I'm a fan of everybody, but I, I mean, I'm an admirer of his making of a prophet and charisma under pressure. I don't tend to read as much of Joseph Smith's life in the Book of Mormon. I mean, I do. Not to the extent that Dan Vogel does in, in that book. But it's a really important argument. And he's an incredibly careful and thorough researcher. And between his work and his documentary editions and the Joseph Smith Papers series, I mean, both of those made my work much, much easier. You could say that I'm really, when it comes down to it, I'm pretty lazy to have undertaken this project in the early 2000s after so many other people have excavated so much Joseph Smith history.

John Dehlin [00:34:06] Yeah, I think it's good to be a fan of all these people and I'm sure they're either are or going to be a fan of you. So that's good because I think we need lots of perspectives to understand someone as complex as Joseph Smith. Why don't you, if you want, would you be comfortable sharing your sort of intentions at the outset of writing this book? Joseph Smith, the Rise and Fall of an American Prophet, and also any possible biases you might have. I, I kind of set this up by, by referencing Dr. Michael Coe and Dr. Robert Rittner, that what I'm most excited about in my series with you, John Turner, is that I think we can say Even though you're an outsider, I don't think anyone could say you're anti Mormon or even anti religious or even anti Christian. And, you know, and so what I hope is we can have as an objective of an outsider view as possible that also isn't hostile to Mormonism, but even isn't hostile to faith. So what do you want to say about all of that?

John Turner [00:35:24] Well, I mean, I really don't want to. I don't want to present myself as some sort of paragon of objectivity or neutrality. So just in terms of my own background, I am a Protestant Christian. I grew up in a Presbyterian church. And with going too far into the weeds on that, my own congregation was a fairly Evangelical Presbyterian church. I had, I would probably. It's most understandable to your audience as I had evangelical Christian experiences of faith as a teenager and a young adult through ministries like Young Life and intervarsity. I think I probably used to be. I used to be more conservative and even a little evangelistic in that branch of Christianity. I still belong to a Presbyterian congregation in Northern Virginia that really leans more progressive than evangelical. I really think of myself as sort of straddling mainline progressive and evangelical Protestantism. So all of that you could say is I'm not necessarily objective or neutral because if everything that Joseph Smith claims to be true is true, then I probably should switch churches and I haven't. So I'm comfortable in my own space. I guess I'd also. I'd say at the outset that one of the things that is pretty characteristic of mainline Protestantism is a willingness to. When I say characteristic of mainline Protestantism, I mean in 2025, I feel a considerable willingness to live with a lot of ambiguity when it comes to the Bible, when it comes to church history. And you know, that that's not necessarily the way that a lot of either faithful or former Latter Day Saints have approached Mormon history. But to me, a lot of ambiguity and uncertainty. They aren't deal breakers when it comes to Christianity and either its truth or its worth.

John Dehlin [00:38:18] Yeah. I personally am excited by the fact that you have a Protestant background because I think that's very fitting for the context that Joseph Smith sprang from and lived in. So that's exciting to me. So, yeah. So what else would you like to say about your intentions and your methodology for approaching this book? And also what sources you were able to draw from, whether your resources were limited, if they were resources you were hoping to get access to that you weren't. What do you want to say about just that? Your methodology and your process.

John Turner [00:39:04] I guess a couple of things I'd say is for me, research and writing, they are ways to learn and they are pursuits that I enjoy. So this may also sound a little, either a little crazy or a little bit wonky, but for me it simply was a lot of fun to wade through all of the sources that pertain to Joseph Smith's life. And I guess one of my intentions in writing is I want other people to be able to have that same experience through what I write. So I think both writing and reading history should be, should be sources of pleasure. And so that was my primary approach. And as I said, I also wanted, I wanted to, I tried really hard to write a readable, somewhat fast paced biography. Now I have to say as an academic historian, I don't know if I can actually do that. I tend to try really hard to write things that are readable and fun and then sometimes other people will tell me, well, that's, you know, that's, you know, that's maybe a little bit more complex than I was hoping. But I think Joseph Smith's life, it has a lot of complexity and controversy, but there's also just a lot of what I call sometimes audacity and chutzpah. His life is remarkable, whether you accept its truth claims or not. There are elements of it which simply are a marvel. And for me, I didn't want to lose track of that and I guess bogged down too much in some of the questions that sometimes cause scholars to take a long analytical break.

Pitching Joseph Smith's Story to Different Audiences

John Dehlin [00:41:23] So I, I, here's, here's kind of a, maybe a, a question you might not have expected me asking, but let's just say you're either, you know, let's say you're an elevator in an elevator with someone who's never been Mormon and knows nothing about Mormonism or Joseph Smith or, and, and you're in the elevator with, let's just say some frustrated ex Mormons that feel really hurt by their experience with the Mormon Church and feel really angry at Joseph Smith once they learned more about his history, let's just say the history that was kind of withheld from them, from their perspective. And so they just tend to think he's just a horrible human and not worth studying and lower, lower than scum. And why would I ever want to even give him a, why would I ever want to describe him as fascinating, you know, or marvelous, you know, given, given that they would want to compare him to Warren Jeffs or, or, you know, Jim Jones or Keith Ranieri? Or some, you know, cult leader. What would be your kind of elevator pitch to Never Mormons and even ex Mormons that Joseph Smith is. Is wonderful, you know, is. Is wonderfully interesting and worth learning about.

John Turner [00:42:46] Great question. So for the first group, the Never Mormons don't know anything about this. I think what I'd say is. So you might never have heard of this individual, but he published the most widely printed book in US History. He started or he established a.

John Dehlin [00:43:11] Okay, wait, so you're saying more than John Steinbeck? More than, you know, pick.

John Turner [00:43:16] Pick your author, like most widely printed American publication.

John Dehlin [00:43:22] Yeah. That's a big deal, right?

John Turner [00:43:23] That's a big deal. Not necessarily. I don't know about widely read, but it'd be up there, at least for sure. So an incredibly influential piece of American literature started, founded a series of communities, including Nauvoo, which at one point rivaled Chicago as the largest city in Illinois, founded a church that now has 17 claimed member million members around the world, ran for president and was shot by a mob. I mean, I don't know. I think that's not a bad elevator pitch to never heard about Mormonism. For the second group, people who might be angry at Joseph Smith or just have an incredibly negative view of him. First of all, I think as a historian, I don't necessarily think about the intersection between Joseph Smith's life and contemporary experiences that people might have in either in the LDS Church or other churches that trace their inspiration to him. But I would say before you dismiss Joseph Smith as evil, you have to reckon with the fact that during his lifetime, I think most people who met him, enjoyed meeting him, liked him, found elements of his personality that they appreciated. That's not universally true, and he had plenty of critics as well. But he definitely had aspects to his personality that were really positive. Hospitality, physicality, mirthfulness, sense of humor. I think he also had an ability and an unusually pronounced ability to address questions that mattered deeply to the people of the United States from the late 1820s through the early 1840s. Baptism for the Dead is a good example of that. When Joseph Smith introduced that teaching, I mean, other, you know, non Mormons found it totally laughable and enjoyed thoroughly mocking it. You can find lots of examples in newspapers. But his own people relished that teaching from the get go. And it spoke to some deep anxieties and human needs that they had. And so I think we have to do. You know, sometimes you hear references to like a warts and all biography. Usually that means only warts. I mean, I really believe in the warts and all that. Yeah. I think Joseph Smith had significant flaws and also significant strengths.

John Dehlin [00:46:38] Love it. Okay, well, John Turner, if you're comfortable sharing. That was beautiful. Tell us. You know, there's this perception, at least among ex Mormons that, like, the Mormon Church has been stingy with its archives that it's, you know, hid stuff, that it's kept stuff from everybody and that in those mountainous vaults it says it's withholding all sorts of documents. And unless it's a faithful historian, you've really got no chance of. Of getting the sources. You need to write a good biography of any Mormon church leader. Talk about your sources and to what extent you feel like the church was either withholding and not forthcoming or very supportive and encouraging of this biography.

Transparency and Sources in Mormon History

John Turner [00:47:29] Yeah. So that's a great question. And as you know, and I think a lot of your listeners know, there's definitely been some pendulum shifts in terms of openness and access for researchers over the years. And I think right now, at least as it pertains to the 19th century, 19th century history of the church, things are pretty open in terms of access. I can really only speak to my own experience with the Joseph Smith Papers. Almost everything's out there. So I didn't, you know, I didn't need to plead for access to very much. There are a couple of instances in which I asked to see an original of a document that had been published and annotated in the Joseph Smith Papers volumes. There were one or two things that weren't granted. Honestly, I don't think those were terribly significant in terms of the biography, and you'd probably want to know the specifics. So one of them was from the quorum of the 12 minutes and so on that one I might have, if I'd really pushed to see the original, I might have eventually succeeded, but I thought the published transcript was adequate.

John Dehlin [00:49:11] Do you mean the Nauvoo quorum of the 12 minutes or.

John Turner [00:49:18] I don't mean to put you on the spot. Yeah, no, I don't quite remember. I think it was from the early Nauvoo period.

John Dehlin [00:49:24] Okay.

John Turner [00:49:25] One thing that, you know, I could have it again. It wouldn't have really changed the biography either way. But I was able to look at the original William Clayton Journal, which I was, I was happy to do, and I did want to look at the original. I will. And there's definitely. There's a lot of material in there about land transactions. Honestly, that isn't in. I think at least most of that's not in what's been published, but a lot of the things I was most interested in were in the already published bits of the Clayton Journal. So that's a long way of saying that when it comes to researching Joseph Smith, I do think at least almost everything is out there. You know, it hasn't been that long since the council of 15 minutes were published. You know, that's another good example of something that historians had wanted access to for years, that they now have. I think with Joseph Smith at this point, it's not so much a question of access, but rather a challenge that we don't have more for some of the key moments in his life. So, for instance, there simply aren't a lot of contemporary documents pertaining to the Book of Mormon translation. So sometimes the historical record, it just lets us down because it's just a record of what's left on the record. You know, it's, it's necessarily super incomplete. And I mean, what else do you

John Dehlin [00:51:16] need to know than that it's translated by the gift and power of God? I mean, that's all you need to know.

John Turner [00:51:21] Well, I mean, Joseph Smith didn't want to talk about it a whole lot beyond that. So yeah, I want to know more. But, and also, you know, I mentioned, I think, I think there is actually a lot of documentation about Joseph's plural marriages. On the other hand, there isn't a lot, not a lot of those documents take you inside Joseph Smith and how he experienced plural marriage. So they don't, they're not quite so helpful at pinpointing his decision making, emotions, experiences. So we, you know, so I would say it's not so much a question of access, but of the incompleteness of the record and what one does with that.

John Dehlin [00:52:16] Really quickly, when you mentioned to me that you were able to gain access to the original William Clayton diaries, that seemed significant to me. Is that significant or is that something the Church has been doing with historians who ask for them for a while now, or do you know?

John Turner [00:52:33] So it's a good question. Well, you know, as far as I know, the Church is fairly close to publishing the Clayton Journal, so at some point, hopefully everybody will have access. There have been other historians who have been able to look at that document, but I don't think it's necessarily available to everyone, which I suppose raises some ethical issues. As a researcher, my own approach is look at anything I can.

John Dehlin [00:53:08] Yeah, makes sense. All right. I have a hard question that you may or may not feel comfortable answering or answering fully candidly, but I have to ask It I've talked to, let's just say, non believing Mormon studies scholars who have described to me kind of this game that you have to play to have access to, you know, original documents that the LDS Church keeps and guards. If you're too critical, if you're too harsh in your writing, then you fear the Church withholding access to the documents. And that can pressure some to maybe go lighter or less harsh or less candid in what they might write because they want to maintain favor with the Church and with the gatekeepers to the documents that they might want to access. Is that a, do you think that's an unfair characterization of the game that historians might need to play if they want to publish in Mormon studies? Is it a familiar game that you've heard? Am I making this up or is, or do you want to just say no comment?

John Turner [00:54:35] No. I mean, I try really hard to answer any questions people ask me, John. So, I mean, I do, I do think that probably is a thing. I think I'm a little insulated from that as I personally think that might be easier to negotiate or navigate as a non Latter Day Saint. I think for me the stakes of writing whatever it is I want to write are, are just much lower. I'm also, I mean, so I'll just back up and say that I was, I wasn't really planning on writing another book about Mormon history a number of years ago. I don't like to, I don't totally like to stay in one space in terms of research because like I said, I like to learn new things. And so I wasn't really in a position at an earlier stage of my career where I thought, well, I got to make sure they like this so that I can do the next book. And this time around, I really don't have any aspirations of writing an additional book on a subject that would require access to church archives. So I don't know. I mean, I have felt like, yeah, I've had more. So with Brigham Young, that was a little bit more of a process of patient negotiation and repeated requests for things. This time around. I just really didn't have to do much of that. And so that was a good space to be. And I also would say it's a lot harder for historians who are working on, say, the 20th century history of the church. So the later you get chronologically, I think the discussions about access are harder. I think when you're in the earlier periods, it's a little bit easier. I didn't get turned down on a lot of things. For Brigham Young. And so I don't know. Maybe I just ask, really winsomely. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:57:13] Okay, last question on sources. Do you have any reason to believe that there are unknown documents or, you know, important documents that the church is still hiding or keeping that maybe we wouldn't know of or have heard about? And I guess I'm asking you to speculate or talk about things that maybe you couldn't possibly know yourself. But.

John Turner [00:57:37] Yeah, I don't really, I don't think so. I mean, it's. Of course anything's possible, right? There's always a greater than 0% chance of almost anything under the sun. But I would say if you think about the Joseph Smith Papers project, I find it a little bit hard to believe that the church would spend millions of dollars on an edition of all of the papers of, I guess, created by or overseen by Joseph Smith and then have a bunch of stuff in the vault that comes out in 20 or 30 years and totally discredit. Discredits its own project? You know, that doesn't, that doesn't really make sense to me. At the same time, I would say there have been, you know, there's a lot of additional information about Joseph Smith that has been made accessible or discovered by various researchers, not just the church, over the last half century. And I think that'll continue probably at a much smaller rate. But I mentioned that I have a prior book on the history of Plymouth Colony. Hardly any group of people has been more studied than the Mayflower passengers. And diligent researchers are still unearthing things about them in, in England. So, you know, I would suspect in 50 years we'll know more about, you know, we'll know more about Joseph Smith than we do now. So they'll, you know, we'll need more biographies.

John Dehlin [00:59:27] Love it. I love that you quoted Jan Shipps, the late Jan Shipps, who just passed away. She was a never Mormon, you know, legendary scholar of Mormon studies. Do you mind? Especially this is more for, for the believing Latter Day Saints who might stumble on this podcast. But, but let's just say across the spectrum, I noticed that you thank several scholars whose names are familiar to me. But, but it might be useful for people to know that you, you did. I don't know if they reviewed the manuscripts or just provided input, but you were in touch and thanked all sorts of Mormon scholars, as I understand it, in your creation of this book, all along the believer or faith spectrum, is that right?

John Turner [01:00:19] That's true. I'm not going to blame them for the results. But no, I don't know what your experience has been and I'm sure your listeners have had a variety of experiences, but I've really loved the Mormon history community. I've, I've found it pretty easy to, to get along with and make friends with faithful Latter Day Saint historians, formerly Latter Day Saint historians, people from a wide variety of places. I think honestly, you know, there, there are, you know, there sometimes there's big points of tension and controversy and dust ups and all of that. But I love the fact that there's so many people who care about this stuff. If I wrote on 19th century or even 16th century Presbyterian history, it's a much smaller group of people who would care. And so for, for all of the difficulties maybe that could be inherent in that space, I really love it.

John Dehlin [01:01:29] Well, just, you know, just for my personal benefit or perspective, you know, some of the names I see you acknowledge are Matthew Bowman, you know, Brian Buchanan, Robin Jensen, Patrick Mason, Chris Thomas, my dear friend Chris Thomas we've had on Mormon stories. And then you list Kevin Barney, that's an old name. Todd Compton, Matt Grow, Barbara Jones Brown, who we've had on Mormon stories. Lachlan McKay, Michael Marquardt, Colby Townsend. That's a great list right there of collaborators that I'm of course leaving off. But that list really does run the spectrum and I love reading a list like that is what I'm saying.

John Turner [01:02:18] Yeah, well, I have, I have a lot of scholarly debts.

John Dehlin [01:02:22] Yeah. All right, well, so let's go ahead and maybe jump in and let's go to now, if it's okay. You know, the question that I wrote to begin with in terms of substance of the book is, and this is just my curiosity, what aspects of Joseph Smith's ancestry or his early years could possibly predict something like the Book of Mormon and, or the founding of a new religion? So, you know, at least at the, at the grandparents, Joseph Smith's grandparents level, but also obviously his parents and even his siblings. You know what, where should we begin in terms of talking about, and this is again now starting in chapter one of your book, Joseph the Rise and Fall of an American Prophet, that everyone should go purchase right now. Let's make it an international New York Times bestseller. Where should we start with Joseph's ancestors? Maybe let's start there.

Joseph Smith's Origins and Early Family Context

John Turner [01:03:31] So I guess the first thing I'd say is such a great question, John. And so what I say at the end of the first chapter is really nothing that we know about Joseph Smith's childhood or upbringing would have led us to predict what happened in his life. You know, he doesn't seem to have had an incredibly remarkable child. He does, you know, in his own reminiscences and histories and sermons, he doesn't talk a lot about his upbringing and childhood. So let me mention a few things that stand out and some of them connect more to his later prophetic career than others. So I think the first thing, and this is probably familiar to people who know something about the Joseph Smith story is he grew up in a downwardly mobile family. There's, you know, his parents, Lydia Mack and Joseph Smith Sr. They got married in the 1790s. They lived on a farm in Tunbridge, Vermont. And then Joseph Sr. Really, you know, he loses that farm and the family's modest prosperity on a really ill fated investment shipping ginseng to it to China. It's just this terrible turning point in the Smith family fortunes. They are.

John Dehlin [01:05:15] Is that, does that ginseng story suggest that they were gullible or rubes, or is that an unfair. Because, I mean, we've all probably been cheated or swindled. Would you mind addressing just that possible interpretation?

John Turner [01:05:30] No. So, you know, the first thing we have to say about Joseph's early life is it's impossible to narrate it without relying Heavily on the mid-1840s history dictated by Lucy Mack Smith, Joseph Joseph's mother. So for almost everything that we discuss about Joseph's childhood and the experiences of his parents, we're relying first and foremost on Lucy Mack Smith. And so we're really getting her interpretation of those events. So in terms of the ginseng, it's such a, you know, it's such a. Both unfortunate and also a bit of a strange story. So Joseph Senior gets onto this idea of first of all starting a store which already leads him into debt. And then he goes out on a limb with this shipment to China. He doesn't really take care of his own investment.

John Dehlin [01:06:49] Is it okay to say it was a pretty big inheritance that they received? Right. A pretty sizable sum in modern dollars. Am I wrong or right about that?

John Turner [01:06:58] It was $1,000. I don't know what that would translate to originally, but it's a nice nest egg. And Joseph Sr. Really throws it all away. And I think it's sort of strange the way that Lucy Mack Smith narrates it. She, you know, what she narrates is that they've been swindled. You know, they don't get anything. They get hardly anything from this shipment of ginseng to China. And Somebody else has stolen her husband's profits. Now it would have been easy for her to say, well, it turns out this was a really bad idea. You know, we should have, we should have stayed on, we should have stayed on our land. We shouldn't have undertaken such a risky proposition, or my husband shouldn't have undertaken such a risky proposition. But her account doesn't have that sort of self reflectiveness about it. And I actually see echoes of that in Joseph's adult life. I mean, he very much was a risk taker. Some of his, some of those risks really pay off and some of them don't. When they don't pay off, he doesn't tend to stop, take stock, express regret and alter his approach. He tends to just push forward. But I think his parents must have regretted that financial misstep for if not the rest of their lives, at least into the 1830s. I mean, it was such a stark turning point.

John Dehlin [01:08:59] Yeah, Julia is, she's behind the scenes working kind of as a producer. And she and I both googled what a thousand dollars would have been worth back in the 1820s, and we both came up with around $25,000. So that's, that's our attempt at, at evaluating that sum. Julia and I both were surprised by the comment you made, John Turner, that nothing in Joseph's history might have predicted the Book of Mormon or Joseph Smith's founding. Julia mentions a quote by Ail Smith and I don't know if this is accurate, but it's something like quote. Asil always knew that God was going to raise up some branch of his family to be a great benefit to mankind. But before you answer that, I was really, really struck by the passage in your book where you talk about Asil Smith's views on organized religion. My sense is that again, Joseph Smith's paternal grandfather Asil Smith wasn't a big fan of organized religion, that he was more of a Unitarian Universalist in today's, I don't know, framing. And I love the, the, the story, which I think I'd read before, but maybe I hadn't, that when Asil Smith, Joseph's paternal grandfather, found out that the Smith family was flirting with converting to. I don't know if it was Methodists or Presbyterians that he shows up in the Smith family home with Thomas Paine's An Age of Reason. And I paid attention to that because my friend Wayne Sermon, who's the lead guitarist for Imagine Dragons, he once gave a talk at a Thrive conference where he talked about how ahead of his time Thomas Paine was, in terms of sort of being a critic of not just organized religion, but of the Bible and even of beliefs in God. And so I went and read the Age of Reason. It totally derailed me in a very delightful way from reading your book because this is a fascinating book. But in it he not only does sort of Dan McClellan or Bart Ehrman, like historical analysis of the Old and New Testaments, I'm talking about Thomas Paine here, but he basically, you know, tells people that organized religions are not good things, that this whole paradigm of believing in a prophet is always a second or a third or a fourth hand endeavor. So you shouldn't really be believing in someone's, you know, claims about divine intervention. And it made me think, whoa, Asa was kind of cool. And if he dropped this book off in the Smith family home and they read it, then either they didn't read it or they weren't paying attention or they disagreed with it because Joseph, like, basically looked at whatever was said in this book and kind of did the opposite. So that's a long way of saying, tell us about ESO and, and what, what religious sensibilities he brought to the Smith home and to his son, Joseph Smith Sr. And I'm dying to know what Lucy thought of Asel. Yeah, so any. I know that's probably a lot of questions, but.

Religion, Skepticism, and the Age of Reason

John Turner [01:12:28] Yeah, no, those are, those are great questions. And you're totally right that the Age of Reason is super punchy, doesn't pull any punches, very much, impugns the Bible and Christianity as fanciful, ridiculous and dangerous. So one thing we know about Aysol and Joseph Sr. Is that in 1797 they declare their membership in a universalist society in Tunbridge, Vermont. Now, universalism is the belief that all individuals ultimately will be saved, so nobody's going to hell among themselves. Universalists had a lot of differences of opinion. Some of them thought there might be something like a purgatory, some temporary punishment, but essentially no hell. And also, by being a universalist in the late 1700s, it meant you also didn't have to pay taxes to support the established Congregational Church in Vermont or in your local town. So there could have been that additional motivation as well. One thing I find interesting about Joseph Sr. And I know your question was about asil, is Joseph Sr. Is not thoroughly convinced by universalism, at least if Lucy Mack Smith's accounts of her husband's spiritual anxieties are to be believed. So she records these dreams and visions that he has in which he's going to be shut out of eternal life, you know, that he can't. You know, he, he rushes to the door of a meeting house and I think perhaps out of the hope of encountering Jesus Christ within, and the door slams shut and he feels his flesh withering and finally he gets in. So I think both Lucy and Joseph Sr. They do have these pretty intense Christian anxieties. Lucy very much wants to have some sort of conversion experience that will allow her to have spiritual assurance. That's why she's going to these Methodist meetings. Interestingly, Joseph Sr. Listens to Asil. He tells Lucy to stop going to those meetings. So the way I think about the Smith family, especially Joseph Sr. And Lucy Mack Smith, and this is something that Dan Vogel's written quite a lot about as well as other historians, they very much are Christian seekers. These are people who, they don't take Thomas Paine's approach to the Bible. They read the Bible, they know the Bible, they pray, they want to have some experience of Jesus Christ, but they are ultimately they stand apart from the churches that surround them. And Joseph Sr. Is stronger on that last point than Lucy Mack Smith is. You know, it's Lucy Mack is going to the Methodist meetings. Later, she joins a Presbyterian church in Palmyra. I think Joseph Sr. He definitely inherits his father's skepticism of churches, of ministers that, you know, they might, these people might not have good intentions or necessarily reasonable doctrine. And yeah, so, I mean, I do think there's, there's some elements of this that affect Joseph Jr. Going forward. I think like his mother, he wants to have, he wants to have a conversion experience. He wants to have spiritual assurance. But like his father, he's just not convinced that he can find it in any of the churches that he encounters. I think he also very much inherits a visionary inclination for, from both of his parents and also his grandfather Mack. It's very much accepted in his family and in the culture that he inhabits that people can see divine beings, see and hear from divine beings. I think that certainly is something that points forward to his living, later experiences within his culture. That's something that is not far fetched.

John Dehlin [01:17:35] I guess just as a follow up then, do we have any reason? On the one hand, I would just ask why was Joseph Smith Sr. So worried about his salvation if his own father not only brought him the Age of Reason, but would have told him, hey, everybody's saved. You don't need to worry about your salvation. You know, everybody's saved. Any idea? Did he just not buy it? Did Lucy you know, prevail and tell him he did need to worry about his salvation. Or do we just not know? Because it seems like they had every. Joseph Smith Sr. Had every reason to not be worrying about the fate of his soul. Am I wrong?

John Turner [01:18:16] Well, yes, at least in theory. Right. But Asil also at the. Maybe this is a little bit hard to really pinpoint, but he seems to have even been open to what Joseph Jr. Does in the late 1820s. So we don't necessarily know all the ins and outs of his own religious mentality. Joseph sr. So it's quite possible for people to be pulled and pushed in different directions. Right. You know, he could be influenced by his father, maybe especially not wanting to pay taxes. Right. You don't want tax. You know, taxes are usually universal. So if you can get out of that, that's good.

John Dehlin [01:19:06] So let me just make sure I understand that there was an incentive to be religious to avoid paying taxes.

John Turner [01:19:11] There is an incentive to be universalist.

John Dehlin [01:19:15] Oh, got it, Got it. Okay.

John Turner [01:19:19] I don't know that much about the laws of the state of Vermont at this time, but my understanding is that if you declared your membership in sort of an acceptable alternative to Congregationalism, then you didn't have to pay the local taxes to support your Congregational church. So he could have multiple motives and he could have been influenced both by Asil and by Lucy Mac Smith. He definitely doesn't. He definitely has a measure of spiritual anxiety, but he's. As opposed to Lucy Mack Smith, he's far more. He's more inclined to hold ministers and churches at arm's length. And I think in a nutshell, you could be a Christian in Vermont in the early 1800s without attending or belonging to a congregation.

John Dehlin [01:20:20] Okay, that makes sense. Thanks for clarifying. I guess I would just ask as a follow up on the flip side, in terms of like Joseph's background predicting aspects of Mormonism. I see a lot here, like every church is corrupt. That, you know, that's what I think Aza believed. That's what Thomas Paine wrote. That's very Joseph Smith to say that all the current churches are corrupt. I also think that no, no real hell, you know, Mormonism, I think has the fewest people going to anything like what's traditionally understood to be hell. Mormonism may be number one in all of Christianity of really pretty much no one going to hell other than the outer darkness stuff. So, no, Hell is kind of universalistic. And then I would also say, I would say baptism for the dead seems like an innovation that would be very Much inspired by this idea of universalism as well. So in that sense, I'm seeing a lot of that background actually possibly informing what Joseph Smith ends up developing in his theology.

John Turner [01:21:34] No, those are all fair points. What I really meant is nothing would have really predicted this boy from this downwardly mobile family publishing a work of scripture and founding a church.

John Dehlin [01:21:48] Got it.

John Turner [01:21:49] Absolutely. I mean, you know, I think on the. Universalism is such an interesting subject because it seems as if universalism is condemned in the Book of Mormon. But then Joseph has that early revelation in which he questions the idea of endless punishment. And so, you know, I see him searching for a way to sort of uphold the idea that some people do deserve punishment for what they do in life with at least a relatively optimistic vision of the afterlife. So, absolutely. I think, you know, that that universalist inheritance from Aysol and Joseph Smith, it does persist. Although I think Joseph, you know, I would say Joseph questions and refines it in his own way.

John Dehlin [01:22:46] Yeah, yeah. Kind of provide solutions to it. Also the kind of the. I guess you didn't hear from Joseph the mocking or the denigrating of the Bible that you would find in Thomas Paine's Age of Reason, where from your book it says he referred to the Bible as full of quote lies, wickedness and blasphemy. You certainly get even from Joseph Smith's Articles of Faith that he views the Bible as flawed enough to. Where he has to basically create a whole nother book to kind of tell us all the. All the things we need to know that the Bible doesn't tell us accurately enough. So that's, that's, that's another aspect that, that. But I'm guessing that maybe the, the early 1830s and 20s, the culture was swimming in people discussing the possible flaws or corruption of the Bible. Is that fair to say?

John Turner [01:23:46] I think that's fair to say. Swimming is maybe a little overstating it, but. Right. So you have. It's not just Thomas Paine. There's. I might get the first name wrong. Joseph or Josiah Priestley, who's essentially a deist thinker in England, I think spends some time in the United States, influences Thomas Jefferson's view of the Bible. So you have people like Thomas Jefferson who want to preserve the good ethical teachings of Jesus while getting rid of what he understands is the ridiculous stuff. So that's very different than Thomas Paine. I mean, Jefferson and Paine were friends, but Paine essentially regards the Bible as mostly ridiculous and not. Not of value. Right. Jefferson sees things of value, but with Sort of this supernatural stuff, you know, stuck to it that you've got to get rid of. Joseph Smith's approach, as you know, is different. He thinks plain and precious truths have been lost and need to be restored by Revelation. And I see him as more intrigued and puzzled by the gaps and unanswered questions in the Bible that he thinks he can answer. So it's, it's a different approach. But, but you're right that there are a number of people who are dissatisfied with the Bible as they had it and either want to get rid of it or want to edit it, or in Joseph Smith's case, want to expand on it and perfect it.

John Dehlin [01:25:32] One of my favorite things Thomas Jefferson did was create that Jefferson Bible where he basically only includes what the, the exact words of Jesus and basically removes everything else from, from his, his version of the Bible. Is that right?

John Turner [01:25:48] Pretty much right. There's a, there's a historian, Peter Manso, who works at the Smithsonian. He, he jokes in a book on the Jefferson Bible that it's all set up and no payoff because Jesus doesn't come out of the tomb. So it's kind of a bummer ending,

John Dehlin [01:26:03] but unless you really value just the wisdom, the practical teachings of Jesus. And Julia is reminding me of a quote she heard that Jefferson possibly once referred to Christianity as hocus pocus. Was he a believing Christian or. I know I've heard many of the U.S. founding fathers referred to as, I think you pronounce it. Deist.

John Turner [01:26:30] Deists.

John Dehlin [01:26:31] Yeah.

John Turner [01:26:31] Yeah. So, you know, Jefferson is such an interesting character because like I would say again, unlike Paine, he sees a lot of value in the Bible, specifically in the teachings of Jesus. And so he's not a mocker. I don't know about the hocus pocus. I mean, in general, Jefferson is not a mocker of Christianity. He doesn't believe in its revelatory or supernatural basis. But I think Jefferson would have thought of himself as a Christian, just not in the way that, say, Billy Graham would have thought of a Christian, if that makes sense.

John Dehlin [01:27:17] Got it. Well, Julie is sharing with me some quotes about or from Thomas Jefferson. We'll include it in the show notes. There's even a quotation there, something like the Christian God is a three headed monster, but I don't want to go down a rat hole. So we'll just refer our viewers and listeners to the show notes if they want to dig further. Unless you wanted to respond to that.

John Turner [01:27:37] No, no, I just say Joseph Smith jokes that he has a similar joke along those Lines that the trinitarian God is sort of like a giant, you know, doesn't make any sense.

John Dehlin [01:27:49] Oh, okay. That's kind of a criticism maybe on trinitarianism a little bit.

John Turner [01:27:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:27:55] Okay. Let's discuss if it's okay. Kind of the visionary disposition of the Smith family. You've referred already maybe to some of the visions of Joseph Smith Sr. But on pages, I don't know, 12, 11, 12, you talk about the visionary nature of Joseph's parents. And I would even say it might be worth discussing just the visionary nature of the culture. Obviously, we're going to get to the first vision. And one of the things people who, I don't know end up losing faith in Mormonism learn is that Joseph's claims of visions or the first vision, it was in no way unique to the time that it was very common not just for Joseph's parents to have a lot of visions, but just for all sorts of people to claim visits from God or Jesus. So what do you want to say about the visionary culture, but also of Lucy and Joseph Smith Sr. Specifically?

Visions in the Smith Family and Early Influences

John Turner [01:29:01] Yeah, Such a great question. And a number of historians, I think, Richard Bushman, Christopher Jones, they've documented some parallel visions between those of Joseph and the Smith family and other Americans in the early 19th century. So, I mean, I would just say I don't think it was. It's not that Protestant Americans say, Methodists, Baptists and others. It's not like people are seeing God the Father and Jesus Christ and communicating with them all the time. It's just that the border between heaven and earth is relatively porous and visions aren't uncommon. So just a couple of examples from the Smith family that I talk about in the book. Lucy's father, Solomon Mack, he has a visionary conversion experience. I think that'd be the best way to put it. When he's suffering from. I think he's suffering from rheumatism. And he's also has some spiritual agony. And he sees these bright lights and essentially perceives verses from the Bible imprinted on his mind. I don't remember exactly what the verses are, but he feels that God heals him or at least frees him from his suffering for a time. And he understands that as his union with Christ, that he experiences spiritual assurance and this close personal connection with Jesus Christ through that visionary experience. Lucy, you know, she has visions that she interprets as pertaining to her family members. So there's this one she writes about where she sees two trees. I don't know. I forget the details of the Trees prospers, the other, other one, or maybe one. One of them is like pliant and flexible or, or something like that, and the other one is unmoved. And she interprets it. She interprets that Joseph Senior will eventually bend toward the Gospel or something like that, and one of his brothers won't. And I already mentioned there's some visions of Joseph Sr. As well that Lucy records in her history that I think point to his spiritual anxieties and his desire to find a path to Jesus Christ. I think if you put it all together, both Joseph Sr. And Lucy, they're searching for spiritual assurance. They're trying to bridge a chasm between themselves and Jesus Christ. They don't know exactly where to turn or where to go. They certainly believe that God, Jesus Christ can and do communicate with human beings through visions and dreams. And, you know, I know we'll. We'll talk about the first vision in a subsequent episode. Given that it's not. It isn't surprising that they would on some level accept that Joseph Jr. Their son, would also have visions.

John Dehlin [01:32:54] Okay, so. So if we're kind of, again, applying the lens of, like, what sorts of context or experiences might predict Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon and the founding of Mormonism, he was, it sounds like in his own family, he was swimming in this belief that you could have visions that God communicated with people. And it sounds like the substance of even his first vision and maybe other visions that are recorded in the Book of Mormon were literally addressing the angst and the anguish and the questions and the debates and maybe even the conflicts that his very parents and grandparents and probably the larger society were all talking about and. Or being tormented over. Did I ever state a summary of what I heard?

John Turner [01:33:53] Well, I mean, I think you'd have to get into the specifics of Joseph's own visions. So what I see, say, and I'll just jump ahead a little bit, say, take the earliest account of Joseph's, what becomes known as his first vision. He very much shares that.

John Dehlin [01:34:16] You're talking about the 1832 account.

John Turner [01:34:17] The 1832 account where he's really concerned about his sinfulness and is seeking forgiveness. That's not the only thing that is present in that account, but that's. That's what is really at the forefront and I think is, I think his mother in particular had that. Had that spiritual anxiety as well. Joseph says, you know, he developed that spiritual anxiety. You know, I think it's not quite so clear to me that at the outset he's seeking to resolve the question of the true church. I mean, ultimately that's, you know, that. That related to their anxieties. I mean, that wasn't. That wasn't the most articulate response to your question, John. But I see, yeah, I definitely see that, you know, the family is fractured spiritually. I think they both share that desire for spiritual assurance. Lucy is more willing to actively investigate the Methodists later, the Presbyterians. Joseph Sr. Doesn't want to go down any of those roads. Joseph Jr. At first, very much, you know, he really sides with his father. He won't. He won't attend the Presbyterian Church either. I think that real idea of having a solution to overcome that fracture, I'm not sure that's really present in Joseph until later in the 1820s.

John Dehlin [01:36:07] Okay. So he did ultimately experience and manifest and awareness of that conflict. You're just saying it may not have appeared as early. Because again, if my parents are worried about their salvation or fighting over which church is true and having visions and experiences, that all sounds like the stuff that could reasonably produce at least children that are also conflicted about those things and possibly having visions of their own to try and resolve some of these matters. And in that sense, it's a context that it would make a lot of sense that amongst other children, a personality like Joseph Smith or a set of behaviors that Joseph Smith ends up assuming would sort of emerge from. To me.

John Turner [01:37:00] Yeah. No, the only thing I'd say is like, I'll just relate this to my own family, which isn't a great parallel. So my mom has been a cradle to the age of 86 Presbyterian. My dad was a lot more skeptical. He grew up in the Church of England. He was English. You know, he never articulated, you know, a personal faith. And they were at odds about this. Right. And, you know, I had my own spiritual questions and experiences. Yeah. I mean, other than maybe trying to share some of that with my dad, the idea of solving it by founding our own church, that's a really unlikely way to go about it. So I guess I'm pushing back a little bit on these things. Really foreshadow Joseph's later evolution because his later evolution is just so incredibly unlikely. You know, I think there are a lot of families that have fracture about religion in the early 1800s. There's a lot of situations in which, you know, going forward, somebody will. Somebody will join the shakers, the spouse won't. Somebody joins the Methodists, the spouse doesn't. You know, this. This is pretty run of the mill in a way. And what Joseph ultimately does is so strikingly original that that's why I'm resistant to the idea that these, you know, family or childhood experiences really point to it. I think, I think, I think his childhood and his family's upbringing, it explains a number of things about his personality and his approach to life. He definitely wants to escape the downward mobility. He's willing to take risks. He is willing to thumb his nose at the established authorities of his day. There's a lot of ways in which his upbringing shapes him. I think it just doesn't really portend things like the Book of Mormon and founding the Church of Christ. Those are, I mean those are such preposterous things to have done given his upbringing that that's why I'm pushing back a little bit. I love it.

John Dehlin [01:39:31] I love it because I mean this series is valuable when our assumptions are challenged and when we hear different viewpoints. So I love the pushback. Thank you. And keep that coming. The couple things I definitely want to ask before we reach the two hour mark. You know, I remember stumbling on an article, I think in the John Whitmer, you know, Journal of Whatever where it talked about Arminianism and I learned about possibly Hyrum Smith's involvement at Dartmouth and specifically at Moore's Charity School. And then also that maybe some of other Joseph Smith's ancestors, other Smiths had relationships with Dartmouth and or Morris Charity School, including Ethan Smith, the author of View of the Hebrews and you know, other well known scholars at the time. That's led many, including my dear friend Dr. Randy Bell to sort of conclude that, that a lot of what Joseph Smith ends up writing into the Book of Mormon and his subsequent theologies really came possibly through Hyrum and or through the Smith family's exposure to Dartmouth and Morris Charity School. Is there something to that? Do you see? Do you see there? And you may not have even looked into this, but I'm dying. Since you mentioned it in your book, do you see evidence that Joseph Smith's the Book of Mormon and or Joseph Smith's theology could have come through Hyrum and or other Smith families influenced by Dartmouth and Moore's Charity School?

John Turner [01:41:23] I remember looking at the article, I don't really remember the details, but this is what I'd say is Arminianism or you could say tell us what that

John Dehlin [01:41:32] is, tell us what that is.

John Turner [01:41:34] So Calvinism in its stricter forms teaches that God predestined certain individuals to salvation and others to damnation. And Arminianism, the term comes from a Dutch theologian named Jacobus Arminis or something like that from I think the early 1600s, who taught that, no, you know, humans can, you know, it's basically up to the actions and faith of individuals, not God's foreordination in terms of whether or not people are saved or damned. So by the early 1800s, Calvinism is waning in the United States. There are a lot of anti Calvinists, Methodists and a lot of prominent revivals. They, they mock Calvinism. You know, you'll be damned if you do, you'll be damned if you don't. Doesn't matter what you do. God's already decided whether or not you're saved. So, you know, there's definitely a strong measure of anti Calvinism in the Book of Mormon, in my opinion, you know, takes Second Nephi chapter two and its discussion of the importance of human agency, which is such a foundational principle within the Mormon tradition. That's a long way of saying it wouldn't have been hard for Joseph to have absorbed an animus against Calvinism from all sorts of people that, that he would have bumped into or anything he might have read. It's sort of almost the flavor of the times. And the Presbyterians are still associated with Calvinism and there's a lot of reaction against that during Joseph Smith's lifetime.

John Dehlin [01:43:45] And tell us really quickly the fact that a lot of people want to make a lot to do with the fact that Ethan Smith emerges, had exposure to Morris Charity School in Dartmouth, as did Joseph through Hyrum. And there are similarities in narrative structure between View of the Hebrews and the Book of Mormon. And there's the larger mound builder myth kind of stuff, but also speculation as to whether Native Americans had Israeli ancestry. And some people really want to pin all that again back to Morse Charity School in Dartmouth. And again, I do think that there's not only Hyrum, Joseph's brother, who is associated with that Darby school, but also maybe other Smith ancestors as. Well, I don't, I don't mean to re asked that question. You talked about Calvinism, which for me was very important. Talk a little bit more about Dartmouth and Moore's Charity School, if that's even stuff you, you look into.

John Turner [01:44:52] I mean, so I will, I will say that I, I explored the parallel between View of the Hebrews by Ethan Smith and the Book of Mormon. I really looked into it more when I wrote the Brigham Young biography. So it's been a while. I, I'll say, yeah, I didn't find it persuasive as a clear source on the Book of Mormon. There are some loose parallels, but in the particulars, not so much. But like I said, it's been a while and I haven't really, I didn't really spend much time thinking about Dartmouth and Morris Charity School. You know, I will just use the opportunity to say, people, people should keep in mind that Joseph is the third son in this family. So his whole childhood and into young adulthood, the focus isn't on him. In Lucy Smith, Lucy Mack Smith's account, the only time Joseph really takes center stage is when he has the leg operation and his life is at risk, his legs at risk. Then she writes a lot about, about him. But otherwise it's clear that Alvin Smith is a significant leader in the family in the early 1820s. Hyrum's also older than Joseph, so I don't think there's a lot of attention on him when he's growing up. And for instance, when they're in Lebanon, I think Alvin and Hyrum, they're going to Morris Charity School. Joseph's still too young. I'll have to think more about that possible connection. But I think it's important to remember Joseph's not front and center in this family until the late 1820s. And again, I think that's, that's why we can't read too much into some of the way some of these things might have shaped him. He really rises to the fore after 1825.

Joseph Smith's Education and Intellectual Development

John Dehlin [01:47:11] Okay, maybe a cousin of a question. You know, a lot of people, when we get to the section about Book of Mormon authorship, a common back and forth is, you know, faithful Mormons will say the Book of Mormon is so miraculous of a book that there's no way an uneducated farm boy, you know, could have written it. But then you read about, you know, the Smith family and you might come away feeling like they actually were educators. And, you know, when you think about even ail Smith dropping, you know, Thomas Paine's Age of Reason off at the home, you might even come to think that they had some higher levels of education in their family. What do we make of just the, the basic education level of the Smith family and whether Joseph and his parents and grandparents were just dumb and uneducated or actually quite intelligent or educated or something in the middle?

John Turner [01:48:16] Well, I mean, I think there's a certain, you know, some of us might have prejudices and biases that would lead us to think that downwardly mobile Vermonters in the early 1800s are not particularly smart people or well educated people. So, you know, William Davis has done some. He's a scholar who's done some good work on Joseph's education and that he might have had a bit more formal education than we previously thought. And I think he also gets a lot of education at home. You know, Joseph Sr. At least for a short stretch of time, works as a school teacher. Might not have been my first choice as a teacher. Yeah. But it's a home that is literate, that is very Bible literate. One of the things that really has always stood out to me about Joseph Smith is his at least lifelong adult engagement with the Bible. I mean, all of his writings, not just the Book of Mormon, his letters,

John Dehlin [01:49:32] his history, Joseph translation, even Book of Abraham and Moses.

John Turner [01:49:37] I mean, but, you know, just when he writes letters, they just drip with biblical illusions. And so I don't. I don't think, you know, he was. He didn't have a lot of formal education. But for instance, if you, if you take a look at his handwriting and handwritten letters and compare those to, say, Brigham Young's, you know, Joseph. Joseph seems a bit. A bit handier with the pen.

John Dehlin [01:50:14] Well, what do you mean? I mean, I guess we. We all have the impression that Joseph Smith was such a bad. Was so close to illiterate, at least in terms of writing, that he always had to have a scribe. And then you read what he wrote. And again, he's much more eloquent verbally than he is in written form. So I had no idea that Brigham Young was actually worse of a writer than Joseph. But also a second part of that question, why wasn't Joseph a great writer if his dad was a teacher and if his brother was studying at Dartmouth?

John Turner [01:50:53] Well, I think his dad wasn't a teacher for very long, and his brother wasn't a student at Dartmouth for very long. I mean, it was a family that didn't have a great deal of formal education. But I would just again, say that they were literate. They knew the Bible extremely well. Yeah, Joseph's writing is rough. You know, he complains about his lack of ability with language, but at the same time, I think his, you know, if you look at his letters, his letters to Emma, for instance, they're not polished, but they're also not crude. They're very expressive. They drip with biblical language and allusions. So I guess what I would say is to lean too far in either direction. Wouldn't be accurate to say that Joseph was totally uneducated, barely literate. That's not true. Joseph was well educated, extremely well read. That also wouldn't be true. I would say he mostly gets a home education. He has some formal education. He. At least parts of the Bible he knows inside and out. So I don't know. It's all maybe. And maybe that's less typical for the early 1800s than it would be today. I think we would. We would think you're, you know, these days, you know, you either get a lot of education or maybe you're uneducated. He occupies, you know, a different sort of space. Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [01:52:41] Yeah. Yeah, totally. Okay. Couple more questions. I don't know if the name Kathleen Malonakis means anything to you. She wrote a book about kind of Joseph's ancestors being involved in counterfeiting. And I think that book had very much mixed reviews. But there's also, if I'm remembering right, there's some indication, and we'll obviously cover this when we talk about Joseph Smith's treasure digging. But I'm curious in terms of, like, getting into fraud or charlatan territory, let's exclude maybe. Maybe Joseph Smith Sr. Unless. Well, I guess the question I have is, is there any indication, separate from the actual rock in the hat treasure digging, that Joseph Smith Sr. Was involved in. Is there any indication that there were strains of fraud or charlatan or illegal behavior in great grandparents, grandparents or even Joseph Smith's parents, you know, during their downward kind of fall socially?

John Turner [01:53:55] That's a great question. I haven't read the book that you referenced, so I'd simply say I don't think so. I think that, you know, perhaps they're the victims of fraud. Right. With the ginseng debacle. Otherwise, you know, they're just scraping by. You know, Lucy seems to have been economically diligent, a bit entrepreneurial. Joseph Senior's energy seem to be spent almost by the time you get into the 18 teens. I don't think he ever really recovers from that financial setback. I'm not aware of any, you know, solid suggestion that Joseph Sr. Or other ancestors are engaged in counterfeiting or fraud. Doesn't mean they weren't. I just. I don't know about it.

The Smith Family's Hardships and Tragedies

John Dehlin [01:54:51] Okay. The other thing that kind of really comes through in your biography and in others is just how much the Smith family was the victim of tragedy, whether it's deaths or disease or financial calamity. Would you say that that kind of tragedy really frames the Smith household? And if so, talk about it?

John Turner [01:55:18] So great question. I mean, they do very much seem just stalked by poverty. So at least as Lucy narrates it you know, that they are the victims of, of being swindled in connection with the ginseng. And then the way she narrates it, they're just about getting semi prosperous again when the whole family has that bout with typhoid fever that leads to the dramatic operation on Joseph's leg. So that seems to be sort of a tragic setback. And then as we push into the 1820s, the way she narrates it, the loss of the Farmington farm also is a bit tragic along with Alvin's death. I mean, I wouldn't say that for the most part these are incredibly out of the ordinary tragedies. In the early 1800s United States, you know, there are, you know, most families they have, they have children that don't survive to adulthood. And you know, in a very general sense humans at a young age were much better acquainted with death than Americans are today. You know, Lucy's own religious sensibilities are shaped through the fairly young deaths of two sisters. So they have the, you know, they have their share of tragedy. And you know, I, I do think that that downward mobility that they can never quite overcome, you know, that leaves a very deep imprint on Joseph. I think it does seem pretty clear to me that as he grows up he doesn't want his parents lives.

John Dehlin [01:57:32] Yeah, that makes sense. I was surprised to use the, to see the words indigent vagrants as a way to describe the Smiths. That's some stark language for me.

John Turner [01:57:46] Well, you know, honestly we don't know that much about that time in which they are warned out of this town they've moved to, they move around a lot. I don't mean that they're vagrants in that sense, but that, you know, they sort of always have to move on and try to find a new opportunity. I don't know that you know, they get this notice. Maybe it's in Norwich. I think Dan, I don't know if Dan Vogel was the first to, to unearth and publish it. You know, town authorities essentially warned them to leave, which was common in the early 1800s because you know, towns didn't want to assume the responsibility for non residents. And they, they do end up leaving soon after that. There's that year without a summer which is caused by that volcanic eruption in Indonesia. And that's when the family decides to move to western New York State and start over again and again. That's another thing that Joseph I think takes away from his upbringing is you can always start over. You know, if you have a debacle, you don't just wallow. You don't sit around and regret. You strike off somewhere new and you try to begin again and do better.

John Dehlin [01:59:19] You also don't give up. Right?

John Turner [01:59:21] Yeah. I mean, Lucy Mack Smith, it's just an incredibly tenacious individual, not, not given to wallowing, I think. You know, I mean, she recounts some of their misfortunes in her history, but she's all about putting her shoulder to the wheel really quickly.

John Dehlin [01:59:42] I've wanted to ask this a couple times since you studied Brigham Young quite a bit. My understanding is that Lucy Mack Smith wrote her autobiography and then Brigham Young ended up rewriting it for her, deleting a bunch of stuff, changing stuff, and maybe even destroying copies of the original. I guess the two part question there is, were there, you know, did Lucy air or fabricate, Is there any credible reason to question her reliability as a narrator such that Brigham Young would feel the need to rewrite her autobiography? And did I get that right about Brigham Young rewriting and destroying her autobiography?

John Turner [02:00:31] So I've gotta spend more time refreshing my memory on that, John. So she dictates her autobiography, I think, in 1844. It's after Joseph's death. She wants to make a record of her family's history. There's then, I think, a second manuscript, which is an edited form of that first draft. So the good thing is we can compare them. And then Orson Pratt publishes it in 1853 without Brigham Young's authorization. He then complains about the errors in it. But we still have that first draft. In terms of whether she's a reliable narrator, I think that's a great question. I think it's one of those instances in which historians almost have to rely on a source. And I rely on it in the early chapters of the my biography of Joseph Smith. But one should be aware that one's relying on a single account and a single account about events decades earlier. One should have a little bit of skepticism. Unfortunately, we just don't have, we don't have accounts from Joseph Sr. Or other relatives that would really shed light on some of those details. So let's just say it's the, it's the best and often the only account we have of certain things.

John Dehlin [02:02:15] All right, last question that comes to my mind. As a Mormon raised Mormon, we're often told you mentioned Joseph Smith and the wound that developed in his leg and the surgeries he had to have. You know, one of the early feelings of betrayal that many formerly believing Mormons feel is being told the story of Joseph Smith Jr. Eschewing alcohol as an anesthetic when he was facing that very painful surgery on his leg that he experienced as sort of giving us the impression that Joseph Smith, one, didn't drink and number two, that drinking's really bad and we shouldn't drink, you know. But also, I remember reading somewhere that it's possible that Joseph Smith Sr. Drank a lot of alcohol and might have even met criteria for alcoholism. Is there anything you want to share about those two questions? Because they seem to be relevant to this time period.

John Turner [02:03:26] So great questions. The first thing I'd say is because it relates to the prior question about Lucy Mack Smith's history. So her account of the leg operation. And I'm not the first person to say this, the way she narrates it, the doctors are about to amputate Joseph's leg, or they're ready to do so, and she intervenes. She says, you know, can't you just take out the infected part of the bone and save the leg? Well, you know, it makes it sound like she knows better than the physicians from Dartmouth. Right. In reality, there was a Dr. Nathaniel Smith, who had pioneered that procedure, and, you know, he's on the scene, so it's surely his idea rather than hers. Maybe they discussed possibilities and that's what she wanted to go with. But again, you know, that's a reminder that this is, I think, in 1813. She's dictating her history in 1844. I don't think we should take it as gospel truth. So I'd say the same thing about the alcohol. Who knows? And you're right, the observance of the word of wisdom is just episodic during Joseph Smith's lifetime and beyond. And the Smith family itself does not, you know, they continue to drink alcohol on at least some occasions. In terms of Joseph Sr. You know, there's a statement from him. I think it dates to Kirtland, 1834, 1835, where he comments that some of the time he's been out of the way from wine or something like that, you know, acknowledgement that at least at times his drinking has been excessive. Now, whether we can conclude from that that he would meet a contemporary definition of an alcoholic, I think, who knows? If you look at statistics about what Americans, on average American men drank in the 1820s, 1830s, it's pretty staggering. So we don't know. I think in an instance like that, it's good just to note the sources that we do have, which is it was at least an issue some of the time.

John Dehlin [02:06:06] Okay, excellent. All Right. Well, we're up a little over two hours. I think this is a natural place to maybe end our first episode again. The book is the Rise and Fall of an American Prophet, Joseph Smith. The author is John Turner. I'm hoping that viewers and listeners have really valued and appreciated today's episode. Is there anything you want to conclude with today in terms of chapter one or things leading up to it or just the authorship of this book and any preview we might want to offer about what might come next? JOHN Turner.

Closing Reflections and Looking Ahead

John Turner [02:06:50] Well, I just think where we stop today, we're looking ahead to visions and plates, so I, I'm excited.

John Dehlin [02:06:59] Okay. All right. Well, I'll just say, John Turner, that I've really loved today's conversation. I really, really appreciate you spending a couple hours with us. That's a lot of time because I know historians really value their time because it takes a lot of time to do good research. So I'm just going to please encourage everyone to go buy this book. There's a link in the show notes in the description. Please buy it. Buy it for friends, pre order it if you're. If you're listening to this before it's released. Let's make this book international bestseller and a New York Times bestseller. I love to sell good historical books on Mormon stories Podcast. So please buy this book. And we've provided a link in our description and show notes, so please buy it. Thank you, John Turner, and we really look forward to having you back.

John Turner [02:07:55] Thanks, John. Looking forward to the next time.

John Dehlin [02:07:57] And again, your email is if people want to email you directly.

John Turner [02:08:01] JG turner52mail.com okay, we'll include that in the show notes.

Support the Series and Closing Remarks

John Dehlin [02:08:06] We also want to encourage our viewers and listeners to subscribe to this podcast. We will only be able to continue this series if you donate. We will be Giving John Turner 50% of your donations to and then the rest is going to go to my time, our staff's time, and all the production costs to run this podcast. So we will continue this series conditional upon your willingness to step up. It's really easy to donate, become a monthly donor to this series. You just go to donorbox.org Joseph Smith, all one word and sign up to be a monthly donor. 10 bucks a month, 20 bucks a month, 50 bucks a month, 100 bucks a month. Whatever you can afford. It's tax deductible in the US and we're a nonprofit and we promise to release weekly episodes on Joseph Smith, not just with John Turner in this book, but also we hope to have other people on the show and cover other topics and just make it a multi episode series so that those who want to understand Joseph Smith's life and evaluate his truth claims and his credibility and his sincerity can do so in as objective and as neutral as a position as possible. So please donate if you want to see this. Continue, please comment and please email us. You can email me@mormonstoriesmail.com you can email John Turner, you can email us both. We would love your feedback, your questions, if you disagree with things we said. If you want to correct us. John, I am certain that you welcome and appreciate corrections, questions, et cetera. Am I right?

John Turner [02:09:57] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:09:58] Yeah.

John Turner [02:09:58] Yep, that's the fun part.

John Dehlin [02:10:00] All right, so please challenge us, correct us, call us to repentance. We welcome and appreciate that. And most importantly, please join us again. This podcast is going to be made available not only on the Mormon Stories podcast feed, on YouTube, Spotify and on Apple and everywhere else, but also we plan on releasing this series, Joseph Smith the Podcast, as its own podcast, as its own Spotify Apple Podcast, and as its own YouTube playlist. So for those of you who don't want to deal with the Mormon Stories content cluttering up the feed, you can just binge watch or binge listen to these episodes in a dedicated Joseph Smith podcast feed. So remember that as well. That's all I have today. Thanks again, John Turner for joining us. Thanks for this great book. I look forward to covering it more. And thanks to Julia Maven, Brooklyn and everyone who helps us at the Open Storage Foundation. And mostly thanks to our donors that make all of this possible. We couldn't have even launched this episode without the great work of our donors. So thanks again everybody. Take care, be good to each other, be kind to each other, and we'll see you all again soon for hopefully another episode of Joseph Smith the Podcast and of Mormon Stories Podcast. Take care everybody.

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