John Dehlin and co-host Gerardo Sumano cover the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints’ public statement distancing itself from Tim Ballard, founder of Operation Underground Railroad, after word that Ballard may be planning to run for Mitt Romney’s Senate seat. Dehlin walks through the church’s statement, released first to Vice News with no individual’s name attached, which says the church never endorsed Ballard or OUR and criticizes his unauthorized use of the church’s name and morally unacceptable activities. He grounds this in earlier reporting from Fox 13 Salt Lake City that OUR has been under a Utah county criminal investigation since 2020 that grew into an FBI investigation, and that OUR spent years telling people no investigation was underway.
They play and respond to Ballard’s own video statement, in which he denies ever using Elder M. Russell Ballard’s name to raise money or do business, describes Elder Ballard as like a grandfather to him, and says the fallout is tearing his family apart. Dehlin and Sumano push back point by point, arguing it is outrageously untrue that Ballard never used the apostle’s name commercially, and noting the church’s own pattern of promoting Ballard’s books for years through Deseret Book. They also cover reactions to the statement: Elder Ballard’s own low-key social media post, ClickFunnels founder Russell Brunson publicly defending Tim Ballard, and right-wing commentators criticizing the church for issuing an anonymous statement through a news outlet rather than its own newsroom. Dehlin argues the episode is, at minimum, a self-inflicted public-relations failure for the church.
The final segment reviews nonprofits tied to Ballard, including the Nazarene Fund, Children Need Families, and Glenn Beck’s Mercury One, and the financial questions being raised about where donor money actually went. The episode closes with a preview of an upcoming interview with Vice News journalists Anna Merlan and Tim Marchman, and a warning that new, more serious allegations against Ballard were expected to break the next day.
What’s covered
- 01:26 Background on Tim Ballard and Operation Underground Railroad
- 16:01 What went wrong at Operation Underground Railroad
- 35:26 How the controversy resurfaced this week
- 43:17 The church’s public statement distancing itself from Ballard
- 52:10 Tim Ballard’s video response analyzed
- 1:00:08 Ballard’s claims about Elder Russell Ballard
- 1:10:15 Reactions to the church publicly condemning a member
- 1:24:28 Apologist reactions: Glenn Beck and others
- 1:38:45 Russell Brunson defends Tim Ballard
- 1:52:21 On the term anti-Mormon and critical voices
- 1:56:05 Right-wing commentators react to the church’s statement
- 2:05:54 Hosts respond to the church’s PR statement
- 2:18:15 Evidence of church ties to Ballard over the years
- 2:40:29 Business and financial dealings under scrutiny
- 2:59:03 Upcoming Vice interview and final thoughts
Thumbnail: Image of M. Russell Ballard from Steve Griffin of the Salt Lake Tribune.
Related episodes: Sexual Allegations Against Tim Ballard w/ Vice News | Ep. 1814 · Tim Ballard’s Alleged Excommunication | Ep. 1820 · Apostle Russell Ballard Gives Tithing Donor Info to Tim Ballard, Sean Reyes Glenn Beck Allegations | Ep. 1833
Episode Transcript
Host: John Dehlin · Co-host: Gerardo Sumano
This transcript is machine-generated and lightly edited for readability. The audio is authoritative. Please excuse occasional errors in names and spelling.
Introduction and Episode Overview
John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone, and welcome to another edition
John Dehlin [00:00:02] of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin.
John Dehlin [00:00:04] It's September 18, 2023, and man, it's been a busy few weeks, basically with
John Dehlin [00:00:11] the eight Passengers Jody Hildebrandt stories that we've been covering. We've broken all past records on Mormon Stories podcast with views and downloads and interest on the eight Passengers Jody Hildebrandt story. I've been in constant contact with several major news media outlets and there are huge nationally produced video productions, several of them long form, that are going to be coming out around the eight Passengers Frankie family, Jody Hildebrandt story. It's going to get crazy and that's made my past few weeks crazy in addition to all the episodes we've dropped. And then we also recently interviewed David Archuleta's mother, which was awesome. And now this Tim Ballard thing has happened.
John Dehlin [00:00:56] So things are crazy.
John Dehlin [00:00:58] But I'm honored and privileged to be
John Dehlin [00:01:00] here with you today.
John Dehlin [00:01:01] I want to welcome every one of you who's joining us on the live stream.
John Dehlin [00:01:04] Today.
John Dehlin [00:01:05] We're going to be talking about the
John Dehlin [00:01:07] Mormon Church recently condemning Operation Underground Railroad
John Dehlin [00:01:11] founder and former president Tim Ballard. We've got so much to cover today. It's been covered a lot.
John Dehlin [00:01:18] Some are very excited about this news, some are very sad and hurt about
John Dehlin [00:01:23] it and, and it's a tough story.
Background on Tim Ballard and Operation Underground Railroad
John Dehlin [00:01:26] Before we jump in to talking about
John Dehlin [00:01:28] Tim Ballard again on Mormon Stories podcast,
John Dehlin [00:01:31] I want to begin just by doing
John Dehlin [00:01:33] a little bit of grounding because it's
John Dehlin [00:01:37] so easy in today's society to be polarizing, to attack people, to dehumanize people, and to frankly contribute to the polarization
John Dehlin [00:01:51] and invective and just ill temperedness that our society is plagued with right now. And I don't want to contribute to that. Some would accuse me of contributing to that. I want to work every day to not contribute to that.
John Dehlin [00:02:05] So what I wanted to start by
John Dehlin [00:02:07] doing was to kind of center and ground on my intentions for today.
John Dehlin [00:02:12] We're going to be talking about allegations against Tim Ballard.
John Dehlin [00:02:16] I want to say at the start that we believe that people are innocent until proven guilty with evidence.
John Dehlin [00:02:23] And in a court of law, a lot of what we're going to discuss today are probably still best categorized as allegations. So I'll just stipulate, don't believe anything I say today. Go look up the facts and the
John Dehlin [00:02:35] evidence, and that's the safest way to go. I recommend that in all situations, I want to acknowledge that false allegations happen and incorrect allegations happen.
John Dehlin [00:02:47] Evidence should always be our guide.
John Dehlin [00:02:49] Hopefully we learn this in our experiences with the Mormon Church or with other high demand religions.
John Dehlin [00:02:54] But let's let evidence be our guide. I also want to just humanize Tim Ballard and say he is a human being. We all deserve grace and humanity. Let's try and be kind and gracious
John Dehlin [00:03:06] even if we are evidence based and
John Dehlin [00:03:09] critical of behaviors or of facts. I want to acknowledge that we all have flaws. I have flaws. I've made mistakes.
John Dehlin [00:03:17] I run a nonprofit.
John Dehlin [00:03:19] It's difficult to run a nonprofit. And so I have flaws. And we all have flaws. So let's try and remember that.
John Dehlin [00:03:25] Let's remember that Tim Ballard has a
John Dehlin [00:03:27] family that is impacted by this. And let's also acknowledge that systems can't
John Dehlin [00:03:32] be ignored by focusing purely on individuals. So Tim Ballard works in a context.
John Dehlin [00:03:39] A lot of his actions have been empowered and enabled, we believe by the
John Dehlin [00:03:43] Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day
John Dehlin [00:03:44] Saints or the Mormon Church. And a lot of donors and and Mormon Church members and other people outside of Mormonism have empowered and enabled and funded and supported Tim Ballard.
John Dehlin [00:03:56] So let's remember that that Tim didn't
John Dehlin [00:03:58] act alone and that there are bigger
John Dehlin [00:04:00] systems that are at play here. And I'll also just request the people in the comments remember
John Dehlin [00:04:09] those statements and
John Dehlin [00:04:10] try to comment accordingly with civility and with humanity.
John Dehlin [00:04:16] I will thank everyone who's joining us
John Dehlin [00:04:18] on the live stream or after.
John Dehlin [00:04:20] If you are joining us on YouTube,
John Dehlin [00:04:22] I would just ask that you please like this episode.
John Dehlin [00:04:25] That will help it get shared in the YouTube algorithms.
John Dehlin [00:04:29] Please subscribe to Mormon Stories podcast channel.
John Dehlin [00:04:33] We always really appreciate that and I
John Dehlin [00:04:35] will add, we always welcome your donations.
John Dehlin [00:04:38] The best way to donate to Mormon
John Dehlin [00:04:40] Stories in the Open Stories foundation is to go to MormonStories.org, click on the donate button and become a monthly donor.
John Dehlin [00:04:46] That enables us to to pay our staff to pay the bills to make
John Dehlin [00:04:49] all this good stuff happen.
John Dehlin [00:04:51] But also if you can't become a
John Dehlin [00:04:54] monthly donor through the website MormonStories.org we
John Dehlin [00:04:57] always welcome super chats here in YouTube
John Dehlin [00:05:00] and also there are ways through Stars and other features on Facebook to support us financially. And so we just appreciate everyone who makes that possible. Please like and subscribe on all the platforms and that would really help us. I guess we'll just start by thanking our first donor for today. Jesus loves you. Who writes thank you for helping the victims. Thanks for your support.
John Dehlin [00:05:26] Jesus loves you. Okay, so we've got a lot to cover today and again speaking to just the humanity, I'm going to play just a really quick clip out of context, but just to show you the humanity of Tim Ballard.
John Dehlin [00:05:41] It's an excerpt of a longer video that we're going to play.
John Dehlin [00:05:44] But this just shows how personal and
John Dehlin [00:05:47] raw this is, even for Tim Ballard. So I'm going to just roll the clip.
▶ Video Clip 1Video Clip 1 [00:05:50] Told me that he appreciates all the things I'm doing and he wants to help me do it. Never in my life, never have I used his name to raise money
Video Clip 1 [00:06:08] to
Video Clip 1 [00:06:10] make some business deal.
Video Clip 1 [00:06:11] What business deal? I don't have business.
Video Clip 1 [00:06:15] It's never happened. All the press in Utah is claiming that some church representative is saying that I can't get confirmation. Whether it's true or not true. If it was authorized or not, I don't know. So this is destroying. This is breaking out my family like you can't believe. My children are being harassed right now because everybody believes that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints that I've defended. For how many years, I've written how many books, how much money for Deseret book on my hypothesis books, and nobody can tell me, guess what do you think? I called my stake president. I said, do you know about this? No idea. I don't believe the church did this. I truly don't. Can you imagine that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Would publicly condemn one of his members?
Video Clip 1 [00:07:38] No.
Video Clip 1 [00:07:38] Without talking to the bishop, the stake president, My stake president had no idea.
John Dehlin [00:07:45] And I just show that clip to
John Dehlin [00:07:46] start out with, just to kind of convey the humanity.
John Dehlin [00:07:50] I found myself in an odd position
John Dehlin [00:07:52] of feeling a lot of sympathy for Tim Ballard.
John Dehlin [00:07:54] Even though I've been concerned about his behavior over the years and reports of his behavior, I still felt empathy for him. Because one thing you have to say about Tim Ballard is he's been loyal
John Dehlin [00:08:07] to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
John Dehlin [00:08:10] Like he said, he's defended them, he stood up for them. He's done probably countless firesides for them. And he's sold a lot of books through Deseret Book and made the church a lot of money. And I think he's a sincere believer and I think he loves the church. And so I just can't. You know, I've been personally publicly attacked by the Mormon Church.
John Dehlin [00:08:32] I was criticized criticizing the church and
John Dehlin [00:08:35] calling the church to account. So even though it was hard to
John Dehlin [00:08:39] be publicly slandered and criticized by the Mormon Church, I don't totally fault the church for doing it because the church felt like I was harming it.
John Dehlin [00:08:48] And maybe the church now feels like
John Dehlin [00:08:50] Tim Ballard is harming the church.
John Dehlin [00:08:52] But for many years, Tim Ballard was a loyal, faithful, dedicated servant and defender of the church. And so how heartbreaking it must be
John Dehlin [00:09:01] for Tim Ballard to have the church totally turn on it.
John Dehlin [00:09:06] And so I believe he's heartbroken.
John Dehlin [00:09:08] And so in some ways, my condolences to him. Really quickly, there's some really important breaking news just today, Vice News, with the excellent reporting of Anna Merlin and Tim Marchman. They just dropped an article today entitled
John Dehlin [00:09:25] tim Ballard's Departure from Operation Underground Railroad
John Dehlin [00:09:28] Followed Sexual Misconduct Investigation. This is breaking news, and I'm not sure everyone knows about that breaking news.
John Dehlin [00:09:37] I want to let you know that we're not going to be covering VICE's
John Dehlin [00:09:42] reporting of the sexual allegations in today's episode.
John Dehlin [00:09:45] That's going to be tomorrow's episode. So I'm excited to announce that tomorrow we will be having Anna Merlin and
John Dehlin [00:09:53] Tim Marchmont on Mormon Stories podcast.
John Dehlin [00:09:57] It's going to be around noon mountain time. And we're going to talk to them
John Dehlin [00:10:01] about their reporting about the sexual allegations
John Dehlin [00:10:05] against Tim Ballard and other reporting that the they're doing.
John Dehlin [00:10:09] They have at least one more major article that's gonna be dropping today in addition to this one on sexual allegations. And I think there's more to come.
John Dehlin [00:10:18] So again, please join us tomorrow at noon if you can, for my interview
John Dehlin [00:10:25] with Anna Merlin and Tim Marchmont of Vice. It's gonna be a banger, as they say.
John Dehlin [00:10:33] Now, I'm gonna go ahead and begin
John Dehlin [00:10:34] and just kind of describe how this story unfolded for.
John Dehlin [00:10:41] And I'll begin by just saying, you know, it's really sad in this world
John Dehlin [00:10:45] that you have to kind of begin with this disclaimer.
John Dehlin [00:10:48] But in the current polarized environment,
Speaker E [00:10:52] if
John Dehlin [00:10:52] you criticize Tim Ballard, you're accused of being either a pedophile or someone who supports child sex trafficking or someone who doesn't care about children or doesn't care about abuse. And so I have to state what's kind of hopefully obvious and silly, but I, John Dehlin, and we at Mormon stories stand 1000% against abuse of any kind, especially of children. We've recorded numerous episodes over the past 18 years covering sexual abuse, the Boy Scout sexual abuse scandal, sexual abuse of victims. And so please don't be mistaken. Please don't equate concerns about Tim Ballard's behavior with being opposed to protecting children or with supporting child abusers. That's kind of ridiculous. I also want to say that I extensively covered Sam Young, the courageous Mormon bishop who fought to protect LDS children. We covered his story in numerous episodes, including his Excommunication. And I just want to publicly ask the Mormon Church, why was Sam Young, Bishop Sam Young, excommunicated for literally the only sin, the only crime of fighting to protect children in a church that
John Dehlin [00:12:18] has a really problematic history with protecting children.
John Dehlin [00:12:22] So I want to just make sure
John Dehlin [00:12:25] people know that we've done our best there.
John Dehlin [00:12:27] And then we've also. In terms of how I got into the story, I did a lengthy series of interviews with Lynne Packer. Lynn Packer is, I believe, the nephew of late Mormon apostle Boyd C. Packer. He was the one who broke the story of Paul H. Dunn, Mormon General Authority, lying in countless General Authority General Conference talks and in Deseret book cassette tapes that were sold and books lying about his history as a war veteran
John Dehlin [00:12:57] and as a professional Major league baseball player.
John Dehlin [00:13:00] It was Lynn Packer who broke that story.
John Dehlin [00:13:03] I interviewed Lynn Packer on Mormon Stories podcast.
John Dehlin [00:13:08] He told his story.
John Dehlin [00:13:09] He told the Pauline St. Story, which I highly recommend. And then in addition, I did an episode with Lynn Packer on Operation Underground
John Dehlin [00:13:18] Railroad and the Tim Ballard thing many years ago. This was three years ago, because Lynn Packer has a YouTube channel and you
John Dehlin [00:13:27] can just go to YouTube and type in Lynn Packer, L, Y N N Packer.
John Dehlin [00:13:32] And he's got like 30 plus episodes
John Dehlin [00:13:35] where he's done deep investigative journalism on
John Dehlin [00:13:38] Lynn packers,
John Dehlin [00:13:42] on Tim Ballard and on Operation Underground Railroad.
John Dehlin [00:13:45] And so much of the reporting that has been done by Vice News at least borrows from and has used as
John Dehlin [00:13:57] a source or at least as a starting point Lynn Packer's excellent investigations.
John Dehlin [00:14:04] And so, you know, if you want to refer to that episode. Hey, Gerardo.
John Dehlin [00:14:09] We're happy to have Gerardo Sumana joining us. How's it going, brother? You're muted.
Gerardo Sumano [00:14:16] Sorry.
John Dehlin [00:14:16] Hey, Gerardo, thanks for joining us.
Gerardo Sumano [00:14:18] Yeah, no problem, Gerardo.
John Dehlin [00:14:20] I asked him to join us late and so he's.
John Dehlin [00:14:22] He's scrambled to get ready. Gerardo, you were important co producer on this episode, so thanks for all your help with it.
Gerardo Sumano [00:14:28] Yeah, thank you. Yeah, it's good to have you delve into this stuff.
John Dehlin [00:14:32] Yeah, it's great to have you, as always.
John Dehlin [00:14:35] Check out our coverage of Tim Ballard on that episode with Lynn Packer. Check out lynn Packer's excellent YouTube channel. And then I also want to say
John Dehlin [00:14:45] that just recently we covered the Sound
John Dehlin [00:14:49] of Freedom movie and Tim Ballard and Underground Railroad and the concerns we had with that.
John Dehlin [00:14:55] We had Anna Merlin and Tim Marchman
John Dehlin [00:14:58] on to cover that. And then, of course, we did a
John Dehlin [00:15:01] special episode with our own Julia to talk about Joseph Smith and human trafficking.
John Dehlin [00:15:09] Because so many people are concerned about child sex trafficking, so many Mormons are concerned about child sex trafficking, partly motivated
John Dehlin [00:15:19] by
John Dehlin [00:15:22] all the publicity that Tim Ballard
John Dehlin [00:15:24] and Utah Attorney General Sean Reyes and
John Dehlin [00:15:27] others have given to the problem. We just felt like it was really important for those who care about child
John Dehlin [00:15:34] sex trafficking to understand Joseph Smith's history, the Nauvoo Expositor, the way that polygamy was handled in Nauvoo and in Utah,
John Dehlin [00:15:45] and, you know, decide for yourself whether
John Dehlin [00:15:47] you believe that the Mormon Church was founded on some sex trafficking kind of behaviors.
John Dehlin [00:15:56] I won't try and adjudicate that now,
John Dehlin [00:15:57] but I do want to refer people to those episodes.
What Went Wrong at Operation Underground Railroad
John Dehlin [00:16:01] So I do want to just hit just very directly this question, what is wrong with Tim Ballard and Operation Underground Railroad? And I want to just the best way to summarize it wouldn't be me. It might be some recent legal initiatives
John Dehlin [00:16:20] that are now very much public knowledge.
John Dehlin [00:16:22] Fox News, Fox 13 in Salt Lake City broke the story back in 2020 that the anti human trafficking group Operation Underground Railroad is under criminal investigation by a Utah prosecutor. I believe that was up in, that was up in the Ogden area. And that investigation, that criminal investigation led to a federal criminal investigation.
John Dehlin [00:16:51] And just recently, Fox 13 released another
John Dehlin [00:16:55] article that says Operation Underground Railroad spent
John Dehlin [00:16:58] years downplaying criminal investigation.
John Dehlin [00:17:01] And again, as I understand it, the FBI was involved in that investigation, which magically was terminated recently.
John Dehlin [00:17:12] We're going to talk about that in
John Dehlin [00:17:13] a bit and ask whether or not it's possible that someone in the position, such as Sean Reyes as Utah Attorney General, could have had some involvement in getting that investigation shut down.
John Dehlin [00:17:27] Because we know that Attorney General Sean Reyes is a super close ally and
John Dehlin [00:17:31] supporter and partner with Tim Ballard. But just to summarize, summarize the concerns that many have had with Tim Ballard. And I would add myself to this concern. I'll start with what's not our concern. The concern is not that Tim Ballard is a Republican. I will say that I, John Dehlin, am currently a registered Republican in the state of Utah. I do that for a number of reasons, but it's not because I support all planks of the Republican Party. I'm definitely a social progressive, but I do feel like fiscal conservatism is important.
John Dehlin [00:18:12] I'm anti war and depending on where
John Dehlin [00:18:14] you are in the party, you can
John Dehlin [00:18:16] come down on different sides, but this
John Dehlin [00:18:20] is not a partisan thing. So many people see me post stuff about Tim Ballard and they say, john, why are you making this political?
John Dehlin [00:18:26] And I'm Trying to make it really
John Dehlin [00:18:27] clear this is not political. The concerns are, number one, allegations of fraud, that Tim Ballard has secretly used psychics and fraudulent intelligence for his interventions and for his jumps, that he creates demand for these alleged jump team services so that he'll get sort of these crossfitters, take them all down to Central America and pose as Americans that are seeking, you know, to exploit and traffic young children for sexual means, which then by paying locals to find the children or the traffickers, they're financing and incentivizing locals to create a supply of people being trafficked. And we've talked about that in other episodes. There's been concerns that these commando, paramilitary or raids are often staged, that they're contrived and not genuine. In many instances there's been serious concern about Tim Ballard and our taking credit for the work of other people, of grossly overstating and over exaggerating his involvement in these jumps and in these interventions, including people questioning how he's characterized what he did. For both the CIA, I believe, and the Department of Homeland Services. There are strong associations between Tim Ballard and his associates and various conspiracy theories, including the QAnon crowd. There seems to be an unhealthy reliance on psychics and strange neo fundamentalist or prepper Mormon teachings. If any of you are concerned about Denver snuffer Julie Rowe, Chad Daybell, Lori Vallow, just even Jody Hildebrandt and the eight passengers. There's so much convergence in neo fundamentalist Mormonism where you believe that you can talk to Jesus personally, where you believe that you can channel or psychics can channel communications with Nephi and Moroni and Joseph Smith and that you believe that you can, that you are, that there are past lives and that there are multiple mortal probations and end times, eschatology and millennial, that Jesus is coming any moment and that we've got to prepare for the final days that Jesus is coming. This is all Chad Dabell, Lori Valo, millennial prepper ideology that Tim Ballard is also swimming in. And so that's concerning to many because so often that stuff ends violently or in fraud or in problems. I personally have had at least one former board member of our and several past employees come to me directly and report directly to me deeply problematic behavior of Tim Ballard and of our including the bullets on the slide. So I'm not speaking second and third hand. I'm talking to people. I've talked personally with several people who are firsthand witnesses to the problems that I list on this slide. And also there were concerns about these jumps and these interventions not providing adequate aftercare for the victims that he claimed to save, putting them right back into the system. I believe that Elizabeth Smart and Ed Smart used to be involved with Tim Ballard and then they mysteriously cut off all associations with him. And my understanding is part of their concerns were around just the complete lack of any thought for aftercare of the victims. And that's just one example. And then perhaps some of the most important, you know, concerns that many people have are that Tim Ballard and Operation Underground Railroad as, as potentially or allegedly a semi fraudulent organization or substantively possibly fraudulent organization are taking attention to and money and resources away from legitimate nonprofits that actually are saving children and protecting and healing and helping in the healing of victims. That's a concern that many people have. And then secondly, that if Tim Ballard cares about the abuse of children and wants to make a difference there, and this is true of Sean Reyes and others, perhaps the most significant way that they could make a difference isn't by going to Uruguay or Haiti or the Dominican Republic. We all know that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, the Mormon Church in 2023 has a massive history of child abuse, of covering up for sexual predators and of abuse of Boy Scouts. That's one of the main reasons the Mormon Church scuttled its a long standing relationship with the Boy Scouts of America. The Associated Press has reported a serious significant cover up problem where bishops, Mormon bishops are discouraged from reporting sexual abuse to police authorities and seeking to silence victims and family members of victims. And we've covered that on numerous episodes
John Dehlin [00:24:19] on Mormon Stories podcast.
John Dehlin [00:24:20] And so, so many people are asking Tim Ballard, Sean Reyes, if you want to solve the problem of child abuse, start with the Mormon Church, start in your own backyard, start in Utah instead of sort of posing as a white savior to go over there, make the big difference in every ward and in every stake all across Utah, Arizona, Idaho, California, etc. That would certainly be a better use
John Dehlin [00:24:49] of your time and of money.
John Dehlin [00:24:51] And then finally, I'll just add one final concern is that Tim Ballard is often associated with rhetoric that is harmful to marginalized groups like racial minorities, like immigrants, and even some say, associations with
John Dehlin [00:25:09] those who are homophobic or transphobic. And of course, you know on Mormon stories that our hearts is with any marginalized community.
John Dehlin [00:25:18] Now I'm going to pause really quickly and I'm going to ask Gerardo to jump in. Is there anything you want to add to these disclaimers or to any introduction
John Dehlin [00:25:26] that I've given so far?
Gerardo Sumano [00:25:27] Gerardo yeah, no, not really. I think I agree with all those points. I will say that. I mean, you mentioned Tim Ballard's associations with anti LGBT groups. I would say not just associations, but his. He's made several homophobic and. And transphobic remarks on. On public podcasts and. And videos. And some of his closest friends, like the producer of the movie Sound of Freedom, have been in big controversies because of making homophobic remarks, associating, uh, homosexual people or gay people or the LGBT community with pedophiles and. And traffickers. So, yeah, it's. It's pretty problematic in my opinion, as a. As someone that is part of that community.
John Dehlin [00:26:23] Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for that, Gerardo. And I'll just also add that, you know, wherever you stand on immigration in the United States, whether you tend to lean more towards supporting immigrants or whether you lean more towards enforcement of the
John Dehlin [00:26:42] borders and limiting immigration, what I hope all of us can feel and have is empathy for people who often are
John Dehlin [00:26:53] living in unacceptable, unlivable circumstances and. Or are fleeing political or violent situations
John Dehlin [00:27:03] where they're trying to just get a
John Dehlin [00:27:05] job or flee violent or unsafe conditions. And I've been very concerned with Tim
John Dehlin [00:27:11] Ballard's rhetoric around basically painting all immigrants
John Dehlin [00:27:18] as child molesters and as child traffickers.
John Dehlin [00:27:20] And I'm not gonna say he always does that, but I'm uncomfortable sometimes with the way that he sort of paints
John Dehlin [00:27:29] immigrants with a broad brush as being child sex traffickers.
John Dehlin [00:27:33] I'm just gonna add that now really quickly. This little clip that I'm about to show that was played last week on Fox 13 News helps to illustrate some
John Dehlin [00:27:45] of some of this. The problems that we've been trying to outline.
John Dehlin [00:27:49] And it's just. It just kind of shows where Tim
John Dehlin [00:27:53] Ballard's head and emotions are at right now. So let me just play this clip from Fox 13 News.
Speaker G [00:27:58] In 2020, prosecutor Troy Rawlings posted a series of messages on his personal Instagram account. Quote, please beware of any individual entity or organization who solicits your money and may be claiming credit for work to protect children. That is actually done by our task force.
John Dehlin [00:28:18] So, really quickly, Gerardo, you may want to jump in here, but, you know, just right off the bat, that's expressing one main concern, that Tim Ballard was going around taking credit for the work of other nonprofits, other law enforcement agencies.
John Dehlin [00:28:36] And it's always been a nuanced conversation because clearly, Tim Ballard and our has helped some number of children, some number of, you know, and has helped convict some number of abusers.
John Dehlin [00:28:53] It may be that that's A grossly overinflated number.
John Dehlin [00:28:56] But at the same time, it's unethical
John Dehlin [00:28:59] to take credit for things that you're not responsible for, especially if you're fundraising off of over exaggerating your involvement. And I think that's what got.
John Dehlin [00:29:11] That's what kicked off this investigation that
John Dehlin [00:29:14] led to many other things. Do you want to add anything to that, Gerardo? You're muted again.
Gerardo Sumano [00:29:22] Sorry.
Speaker H [00:29:22] That's okay.
Gerardo Sumano [00:29:23] No, other than it's obviously unethical to. To be doing that sort of practice.
John Dehlin [00:29:28] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:29:29] All right, let's go ahead and keep
John Dehlin [00:29:30] going with the video.
Speaker G [00:29:32] The messages did not name our directly. Has our ever over exaggerated what it's accomplished?
Tim Ballard [00:29:41] No, no. I mean, it's, you know, it's funny when, when we, when we give our.
John Dehlin [00:29:46] And I just want to stop right there. Like right there. That is an outrageous. That is just a grossly outrageous accusation. If you just look at the work of Lynn Packer, his YouTube videos, he's exhaustively shown how Tim Ballard is over exaggerated or just completely misrepresented his efforts. And then Vice News, the many articles that Vice News has published.
John Dehlin [00:30:11] And it's not just Vice News. You can just Google Tim Ballard at Operation Underground Railroad.
John Dehlin [00:30:17] Very respectable magazines and newspapers have covered the constant misrepresentations of Tim Ballard and our for their efforts over the years. Is that your understanding as well, Gerardo?
Gerardo Sumano [00:30:29] Well, yeah. And you don't even. I mean, if you are someone who doesn't trust the media or think that media outlets are corrupt or protecting pedophiles, I mean, you don't even have to go that far as reading their articles. Just look at. Watch the Sound of Freedom movie. Watch what Tim Ballard says about the movie, which he pretty explicitly says on videos and public podcasts that this is basically 99 reality. And then just look at the public records about what this actual pedophile was like. He was not. Like we've talked about in other podcasts, the, the, the guy who's represented the movie. He was not, uh, a sex trafficker. He was a pedophile that was known to the family, that the family agreed for him to take the kid. You know, all this stuff that he obviously has been. I mean, he made a movie out of this. Exaggerated claims that are completely false. And you don't even have to go to the media to, you know, disprove those claims. Just go look to the public records of, of the court cases and you'll find out.
John Dehlin [00:31:32] Yeah, yeah.
John Dehlin [00:31:34] And again, he did something funny with
John Dehlin [00:31:36] Sound of Freedom where he said you know, this is a dramatic representation.
John Dehlin [00:31:41] But then he totally set himself up as the hero of the movie and
John Dehlin [00:31:47] showed himself doing all these heroic things,
John Dehlin [00:31:49] which builds his reputation as a hero. And then he goes after in the
John Dehlin [00:31:54] press tours and says basically, in effect, you know, everything in the movie is accurate and it's disingenuous.
John Dehlin [00:32:03] And that's a problem.
John Dehlin [00:32:05] All right, let's go ahead and keep playing this clip.
▶ Video Clip 2Video Clip 2 [00:32:08] Our numbers, we're actually pretty conservative.
Video Clip 2 [00:32:11] Is our still under investigation?
Video Clip 2 [00:32:14] You know, I focus on rescuing kids, and I have a team that would answer those questions.
John Dehlin [00:32:21] Yeah, like, I think.
John Dehlin [00:32:23] I'm pretty sure we're going to find out that the answer to that is yes.
John Dehlin [00:32:26] And I think he could have given
John Dehlin [00:32:28] a very simple answer, which is yes. Do you agree, Gerardo?
Guest [00:32:32] I agree.
Gerardo Sumano [00:32:33] Totally agree.
John Dehlin [00:32:34] Yeah. So it's clear that something's still going on. Let's continue.
▶ Video Clip 3Video Clip 3 [00:32:38] Unbelievable. I'm out of here. You get you guys started a little easy.
Video Clip 3 [00:32:44] Within minutes after that question, he got angry and walked out of the interview. For years, his team told people there was no criminal investigation, which is not true. The nonprofit's chief legal officer says she has no explanation. What was the basis of the investigation?
Video Clip 3 [00:33:01] You'd have to ask the Davis County Attorney's office.
Video Clip 3 [00:33:04] Are you able to explain why our was telling people that there was not an investigation when in fact there was?
Video Clip 3 [00:33:11] I don't have any information on that.
Video Clip 3 [00:33:13] Do you feel that this is now fully behind you?
Video Clip 3 [00:33:15] I certainly hope so.
Video Clip 3 [00:33:16] I mean, we have to take the
Video Clip 3 [00:33:18] Davis county attorney at his word.
Video Clip 3 [00:33:20] Usually completed investigations are a matter of public record, but when we asked for a copy of. Prosecutors would not give up the case file. We also found Operation Underground Railroad wrote a letter asking for those records to remain private, in part because of federal grand jury material. We believe at least some of these records should be public. We're in the process of filing appeals so that you know what this case is really about. Especially now that a member of the quorum of the 12 is citing betrayal. Reporting in studio Adam Herbitz, Fox 13 News, Utah.
John Dehlin [00:33:57] So a huge shout out to Adam herbitz and. And Fox 13 News. They're doing great reporting. And. Yeah, so. So it's.
John Dehlin [00:34:08] It's very clear that this isn't just
John Dehlin [00:34:11] John Dillon being political. This isn't just a sour grapes.
John Dehlin [00:34:15] There are.
John Dehlin [00:34:16] There are likely ongoing major federal investigations.
John Dehlin [00:34:20] And I think those who are kind of in the know feel like that's
John Dehlin [00:34:24] one of the reasons why so many people are bailing ship from Tim Ballard. I actually got a text just recently
John Dehlin [00:34:36] it says, been texting.
John Dehlin [00:34:37] This is from someone very closely connected with the political scene in Utah.
John Dehlin [00:34:44] They wrote, been texting with a very prominent political strategist and fundraiser for Utah Republicans, a fundraiser for people like the
John Dehlin [00:34:52] Huntsmans and Sean Reyes. And this person went on to say, they are all running for cover from Tim Ballard.
John Dehlin [00:35:01] And it seems like it's not just
John Dehlin [00:35:03] the sexual allegations, it's not just the weirdness with Nephi and psychics, but it's possibly because a federal indictment or a grand jury has been convened and an investigation is ongoing. So hopefully we've made that case.
John Dehlin [00:35:20] Now let's go ahead.
John Dehlin [00:35:21] And Gerardo, you can jump in at any point. Just let me know.
How the Controversy Resurfaced This Week
John Dehlin [00:35:26] So how did this all flare up again? So last week I received the following text from, I'll just say someone whose name you would recognize and someone who could not be more closely connected with
John Dehlin [00:35:44] the political scene in Utah. I'll just say that.
John Dehlin [00:35:48] And they wrote me, I've been hearing through different people that Tim Ballard is running for Mitt Romney's seat. But apparently he also called and I'm
John Dehlin [00:35:58] hiding the person's name at the.
John Dehlin [00:36:01] This is a national media figure. Apparently Tim Ballard called this national media figure the other night around 1am telling her that he saw Jesus Christ and the second coming is near. He also told her he is running because it is the end of days. This guy gives me fundamentalist daybell vibes. I hope he's exposed enough with him running for office that he doesn't get the support to win a Senate seat. And then I responded, I so hope
John Dehlin [00:36:33] he runs but doesn't win.
John Dehlin [00:36:35] And then this person, she responded, he said Christ told him to announce his candidacy on October 10th. So if, you know, if this source is correct and if Jesus Christ commanded Tim Ballard to announce his Senate candidacy on October 10, we should see that announcement then. Unless Tim Ballard. Unless the information is not correct or Tim Ballard decides to disobey Jesus, or I guess there's always a possibility that
John Dehlin [00:37:08] Jesus could change his mind and have him do it on another day because of extenuating circumstances.
John Dehlin [00:37:16] Regardless, you know, when I receive a text like that from a super credible source, I'm concerned. So I was scared. And then, you know, so then I go to, like, share this information publicly
John Dehlin [00:37:34] because this source wanted me to share it publicly.
John Dehlin [00:37:37] And immediately as I'm literally drafting the text on Instagram, I see the news that Mitt Romney announced he's gonna retire. And then he's calling for a new generation beyond Biden and Trump. And at that Point I was really scared because, you know, it's one thing for Tim Ballard to run against a successful, well known incumbent who was, you know, the Republican nominee for President just a while ago. It's a totally different thing for Tim Ballard to run and not against an incumbent, against a bunch of no names. And of course, one major named person that potentially could challenge Tim Ballard for a Utah U.S. senate seat would be the Attorney General Sean Reyes. But then I find out on Twitter by someone named Matt Holtz again on September 13th, he writes, update. Attorney General Sean Reyes tells the messenger that he is not running for Senate and will run for reelection as Attorney General. He said he will be endorsing someone else, quote, who will be making an announcement in the days to come. Story will be updated. And of course, in my mind I'm terrified thinking that that's likely gonna be Tim Ballard because of how Tim Ballard and Sean Reyes have operated hand in hand, very publicly. I've heard reports of like fundraisers where helicopters will come down and like Tim Ballard or Sean Reyes or whoever will like rappel out of the elevator, down, out of the helicopter, down into the crowd where the fundraisers are like, I don't know the details, but like Tim Ballard and Sean Reyes operating together, speaking together, fundraising together. And I believe Sean Reyes, along with Tim Robbins, actually participated in at least one major our jump, which I think
John Dehlin [00:39:49] there's a movie in the works about to showcase.
John Dehlin [00:39:51] Anyway, I was then extra disturbed to read a statement attributed to Sean Reyes that says, from Sean Reyes, I wish Senator Romney and his family the best in retirement. Over the last several years, I have been asked by many in Utah, Washington, D.C. and across the country to run for his seat.
John Dehlin [00:40:16] Whether or not he was running for reelection.
John Dehlin [00:40:19] I believe I am in a great position to win that seat and could serve well as a senator. So what a setup. Sean Reyes says I could easily do it, no problem. I'm set to do it. But he doesn't. He says after a long time consulting with my family, praying, and I assume
John Dehlin [00:40:39] he's praying to the same people that Tim Ballard is praying to
John Dehlin [00:40:45] and looking at where I can make the most difference and serve most effectively, I have decided it is not in D.C. but here at home. So I am announcing my run for reelection as Attorney General in the great city of Utah. And then he says, that opens up an opportunity for a dear friend of mine who is a great conservative patriot and warrior to run and serve as the next Senator from Utah. This person will be making an announcement in the days to come. And I will be standing alongside this servant leader on a journey to the United States Senate. So at that point, I was really, really, really scared. And that's what happened last week. Gerardo, let me take a minute and bring you in. Anything you want to add here?
Gerardo Sumano [00:41:31] No, other than I share with you the fear.
John Dehlin [00:41:36] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:41:38] Let me just.
Gerardo Sumano [00:41:40] I'll say that I like those slides that say that you were scared and really scared.
John Dehlin [00:41:45] I was. And for the reasons that I mentioned previously. It's not because I hate Republicans. I am a registered Republican. It's not because I hate Mormons. I love the Mormon people. I want the best for the Mormon Church. All I do is to try and
John Dehlin [00:42:03] help the Mormon Church be healthier and to help Mormons have a better experience and help those who leave.
John Dehlin [00:42:08] It's not out of hate.
John Dehlin [00:42:10] It's out of a deep love for our country, a deep love for the state of Utah, and a desire for good things to happen really quickly.
John Dehlin [00:42:17] I'm just going to thank Carol Emmett for her super Chat donation. She says hello, Gerardo. A couple other people send messages. Jason Lynn says thank you for the excellent podcast. Peter Callister writes. Sam Young, Protect Every Child Mormon Stories. Thank you so much. Thank you, Jenny. She writes a new example of the church's secret combinations. I don't know if I would put it that way. Trying to not be polarizing, but I certainly validate your feelings. Jenny Fierce Quaker writes, thank you, John,
John Dehlin [00:42:53] and all of you in your organization, especially Margi. We absolutely love Margi. And I also want to say, you know, Catherine writes, thanks for all you do to present a fair and thorough report on things in the space. John and team. So thanks to all the people who are supporting us. And again, we depend on your donations@mormonstories.org if you're willing.
The Church's Public Statement Distancing Itself from Ballard
John Dehlin [00:43:17] Now, as I mentioned before, last week, I was really, really scared. And then I'll say, until my friends Tim Marchmont and Anna Merlin published a new article that I was not expecting that was titled Mormon Church Denounces Tim Ballard's Morally Unacceptable Activities. And I was really, really shocked about that.
John Dehlin [00:43:45] I was not expecting that article.
John Dehlin [00:43:47] And let me just play how The Utah local TV coverage of the article
John Dehlin [00:43:54] played out on ABC4 News from Utah's first TV station.
Speaker J [00:43:59] ABC4 News celebrates 75 years.
Speaker I [00:44:02] Welcome to ABC4 News at 10. I'm Sarah Murphy. And I'm Emily Flores. We thank you for joining us. Our top story tonight, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints releasing a statement denying their association with the former CEO of Operation Underground Railroad Tim Ballard. Now, this comes after Ballard's claims that the church leader and Russell Ballard were close friends them together and they counseled with each other regarding Operation Underground Railroad missions. Now, Operation Underground Railroad, or our, is a nonprofit that says they rescue victims of child trafficking. The. The church denied Ballard's claims in a statement today saying they never endorsed, supported or represented Tim Ballard or any projects associated with him. They also say Tim Ballard betrayed M. Russell Ballard's friendship and used his name for his own financial and personal interests. Tim Ballard has not commented. He worked as the CEO of Operation Underground Railroad until earlier this year.
John Dehlin [00:45:01] So, you know, that's the way that one news program reported the story. It was definitely shocking to see, shocking to hear. And so what I wanted to do next was to just read, you know, the. We're going to cover a lot of the points of the article tomorrow with Anna and Tim. But what I wanted to focus on today is the statement by the church that was first reported in the Vice news article. And so I'm going to go ahead and just pull that up now and I'm going to read it to you and then we're going to kind of dissect some parts of it that we
John Dehlin [00:45:43] think are really important.
John Dehlin [00:45:45] But from the Vice article, it reads, in response to a detailed request for a comment for comment on these matters, a spokesperson for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
John Dehlin [00:45:56] This is an unnamed spokesperson at the
John Dehlin [00:45:59] time sent a statement which reads in full, President Ballard and Tim Ballard, no relation, established a friendship a number of years ago. That friendship was built on a shared interest in looking after God's children wherever
John Dehlin [00:46:13] they are and without regard to their circumstance.
John Dehlin [00:46:17] However, that relationship is in the past. For many months, President Ballard has had no contact with the founder of Operation Underground Railroad. The nature of that relationship was always in support of vulnerable children being abused, trafficked and and otherwise neglected. Once it became clear Tim Ballard had betrayed their friendship through the unauthorized use of President Ballard's name for Tim Ballard's personal advantage and activity regarded as morally unacceptable, President Ballard withdrew his association.
John Dehlin [00:46:50] And again, this was only months ago.
John Dehlin [00:46:52] President Ballard never authorized Tim Ballard. Sorry. President Ballard never authorized his own name or the name of the church to be used for Tim's personal or financial interests. In addition, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints never endorsed, supported or represented our Tim Ballard or any
John Dehlin [00:47:11] projects associated with them.
John Dehlin [00:47:13] President Ballard loves children all over the world. It has been his mission and life's work to look after them, care for them, and point them to their Savior. So to summarize the components of the church's statement, I'll just list a couple things.
John Dehlin [00:47:32] And Gerardo, I want you to jump
John Dehlin [00:47:33] in if you want any.
John Dehlin [00:47:36] If you have any initial comments, because
John Dehlin [00:47:37] we are going to be digging in deep. Point one was that I think is important, and it was actually Radio Free
John Dehlin [00:47:44] Mormon that called this to my attention.
John Dehlin [00:47:46] It starts out by saying, in response to a detailed request by Vice News. And the reason why I am calling
John Dehlin [00:47:54] that out, thanks to rfm, the great
John Dehlin [00:47:56] Radio Free Mormon, is that it appears as though Vice News sent the Mormon Church a detailed preview of the articles that it was going to be publishing about. So at a minimum, I'm guessing it's going to be these allegations of, like, using a psychic and channeling Nephi through a psychic to tell them where to go on their jumps, these sexual allegations that were coming down the pike, and these, you know, a potential ongoing investigation and. Or federal jury, grand jury. And I would say these issues about Elder Ballard's business associations and endorsement of Tim Ballard. I'm guessing that it was in response to seeing that the veritable feces was about to hit the fan, that the Mormon Church felt like it needed to do what it usually doesn't do. It usually just tells the news media, no comment, no comment. We're not available for comment. Usually they don't even return calls of
John Dehlin [00:49:01] reporters for a story like this.
John Dehlin [00:49:05] They did the unusual act of actually responding with a statement, I believe, and RFM believes, because Vice News let them
John Dehlin [00:49:16] know what was coming.
John Dehlin [00:49:17] Gerardo, is there anything you want to add to that?
Gerardo Sumano [00:49:21] Yeah, I mean, there's so much on that statement that we're probably gonna just be dissecting. But yeah, just very unusual for. For the church to be condemning a specific individual on. On a statement like this. Right. And calling them out by name. And, you know, I mean, and. And the context also is pretty awful when you. When you say that this person that they're calling out by name betrayed the confidence of an apostle. I mean, for. For members of the church, that's like, you know, that's like betraying Jesus in. In some way. So it's. It's a big deal.
John Dehlin [00:50:02] Yeah, you make a good point, Gerardo, because we covenant as Mormons, you know,
John Dehlin [00:50:09] to support the Lord's anointed right to obey and never speak ill of the Lord's anointed and to charge a member
John Dehlin [00:50:19] with disloyalty, disobedience, betrayal of an apostle. I often say authority is the most
John Dehlin [00:50:27] sacred thing in Mormonism, like obedience to
John Dehlin [00:50:30] priesthood authority is certainly in 2023, the
John Dehlin [00:50:34] most sacred thing in all of Mormonism. And they're basically accusing Tim Ballard of violating that.
John Dehlin [00:50:41] That authority. Yeah, super serious. Okay, so a couple other points. Is, is again that that this statement was unsigned. There was no name attached to it. Weirdly, it was shared with Vice News and it was not put on LDS Newsroom. Many people are just super curious. Why in the world of all the different media outlets would the Church start by sharing it with Vice News?
John Dehlin [00:51:13] Many conservative believing Mormons view Vice News
John Dehlin [00:51:16] as evil, as bad as shoddy journalism.
John Dehlin [00:51:21] And so that was a really weird
John Dehlin [00:51:23] decision that the Church made. It acknowledged that Tim Ballard and Russell Ballard were very close friends and that the relationship ended just a few months ago. And Gerardo, I bold that because I think that's significant. It's not like six months or 12 months or several years ago. Just a few months ago.
John Dehlin [00:51:47] Do you find that significant?
Gerardo Sumano [00:51:49] Yeah, yeah, because what does that mean, a few months? You know, like a few months before shy of her 15th birthday. That kind of language, you know, like obviously they're being dismissive and not wanting to. To say for a reason, right?
John Dehlin [00:52:07] Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Tim Ballard's Video Response Analyzed
John Dehlin [00:52:10] Okay, well, what we should do now, I think is go to Tim Ballard's response. And what I'm going to do is I'm going to play it and I'm going to pause it. And I want us to comment on
John Dehlin [00:52:21] that response, Gerardo, if that's okay.
John Dehlin [00:52:23] And I'm going to. I'm going to acknowledge that a lot
John Dehlin [00:52:26] of our viewers and listeners have seen this.
John Dehlin [00:52:28] I think of Mormon stories as sort of the public record for what's going on in Mormonism. So I play these things and respond to them to provide an insight and analysis. But also just for the matter of the public record, I will warn people that the audio isn't great on this recording. And so we'll just ask you to
John Dehlin [00:52:47] turn up your, you know, turn up your stereos if you need to. We apologize for the poor audio, but
John Dehlin [00:52:53] let's go ahead and play this and
John Dehlin [00:52:55] we'll respond to it.
John Dehlin [00:52:58] By the way, my understanding, Gerardo, and you tell me if I'm wrong. Tim Ballard is literally right now back east in sort of colonial America in New England, leading a tour where people paid something like $5,000 a person to be taken around to various historical sites in America to learn about the founding of America based on Tim Ballard's books and on his perceptions and understanding about America. So this is in front of some monument somewhere in New England, surrounded by These people that have paid up to five grand to hear him talk like, what a horrible news story to break while you're in the middle of a. Of a week, I don't know, a
John Dehlin [00:53:50] week long retreat with a bunch of
John Dehlin [00:53:52] people who paid a ton of money,
John Dehlin [00:53:53] who see you as an authority again, it's, it's. I, I feel a little bit sorry for him.
John Dehlin [00:53:59] You.
John Dehlin [00:53:59] Yeah.
Gerardo Sumano [00:54:00] Well, and, and I mean, keep in mind that probably most are, or all of these people that are on this tour are Mormon.
Speaker I [00:54:08] Yeah.
Gerardo Sumano [00:54:08] And they, they've come because his understanding of, of, of the founding of the United States, he relates it to Mormonism and how the God of Mormonism was involved in it and how they were raising the right hands and doing this stuff, the rituals from the temple even before the restoration happened and all this kind of stuff.
John Dehlin [00:54:29] Yeah. Doesn't he intimate in one of his books that Abraham Lincoln decided to fight
John Dehlin [00:54:35] slavery because he was reading the Book of Mormon?
John Dehlin [00:54:37] I'm probably mischaracterizing it, but he's published several books about the founding of America, seeming to suggest that the Book of
John Dehlin [00:54:46] Mormon or Joseph Smith or Mormonism were influential with the American founding.
Gerardo Sumano [00:54:54] Yeah, 100%.
John Dehlin [00:54:55] And one of my favorite TikTok videos
John Dehlin [00:54:58] of the year is when Ben park, you know, reputable historian Ben Clark, Mormon historian Ben Clark basically denounced Tim Ballard.
John Dehlin [00:55:07] Well, Ben park denounced Tim Ballard not for any of the stuff we've talked about, but just for being a shoddy, uncredible historian. So anyway, our viewers and listeners are
John Dehlin [00:55:20] saying that they're in Boston for this event. And if that's true, that's good to know. Okay, let's keep going.
▶ Video Clip 4Video Clip 4 [00:55:31] Leo, how close am I to President Emerson? Valerie? Whoa. Very close. We are. I didn't stage this. How do you know this?
Video Clip 4 [00:55:42] I know this because a few years
Video Clip 4 [00:55:43] ago, Tim brought president here. I gave him this tour. I gave him a tour of a
Video Clip 4 [00:55:49] walking tour at 90 years old.
Video Clip 4 [00:55:52] I offered him a wheelchair. He said to me, you take the wheelchair, I'm walking.
Video Clip 4 [00:56:01] One of the most charming people I've ever met. Thank you for coming, you small film. Whatever.
John Dehlin [00:56:06] Okay, so a couple things, Gerardo, that I want to call out. One is that by this point, the church has already made the statement that Ballard doesn't want his name associated with that Elder Ballard Apostle, you know, acting President of the Mormon Church Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, M. Russell Ballard does not want his name associated with Tim Ballard. And yet here he is, not just asserting that he's closely associated, but like, appealing to that cosplay dude dressed up as some sort of town crier, colonial town crier, appealing to him to back up his contradiction, that he is dear friends and close associates with them. Russell Ballard, don't you think that's an interesting thing to do if you're a covenanted, faithful believing Mormon?
Gerardo Sumano [00:57:03] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:57:04] Or not.
Gerardo Sumano [00:57:04] Well, I think what, what this video is going to show is that at this point, Tim is not, is not believing the Vice news report, and he's not believing that that's what actually happened. You can tell that he's kind of confused. I mean, I think if you go to the video, some of, some of the top comments are like, if he's like a grandfather figure to you, why, why don't you just give him a call and ask him what's going on? I mean, that's, that's the obvious thing to do because he'll say that he's confused and doesn't know what's going on. But so, so I believe, and this is my personal opinion, that at this point, yeah, it's hard. He, he can't communicate with the apostle and he doesn't understand why and he's really not believing the Vice article. But, yeah, kind of interesting. And, and I, I hadn't really listened to what the guy from the tour said, but now that I kind of understood what he was saying, that's really interesting that the apostle was there when he was 90 years old, which means like around four years ago, because he's 94 right now, or 92, I could be wrong. But. So not too long ago he was there. He took that same tour. He didn't want to get a wheelchair. But yeah, it's really interesting that this association between these ideas that Tim Ballard believes and talks about with no credentials as a historian at all. And here's an apostle going in these tours. Really interesting.
John Dehlin [00:58:34] And I just want to reiterate, if I knew an apostle, didn't want me mentioning his name in public or associating me with the apostle, and I was a faithful believing Latter Day Saint, I would kind of just stop trying to make that assertion. So.
John Dehlin [00:58:50] Or at least I would wait until
John Dehlin [00:58:52] I could talk to the guy and figure out what was going on before
John Dehlin [00:58:55] I just doubled down. But clearly he's gonna double down here. All right, let's go back to the clip. So let me. Okay.
Tim Ballard [00:59:06] Thank you for filming. You should all film whatever you can right now.
John Dehlin [00:59:08] Okay. That next thing is really interesting. He's telling people he's like a grandfather to me, so he's telling people he's just like, saying, everyone film this and everyone share it again. That's pretty defiant in my view. What do you think?
Gerardo Sumano [00:59:23] Yeah, I agree. I mean, some say that they. They consider Tim Ballard to have a little bit of a narcissistic personality. I mean, and that's kind of like what someone with these traits would do, you know, would double down and not let their name be discouraged, even if it comes at the cost of offending an apostle or the church even more.
John Dehlin [00:59:46] Yeah, yeah, yeah. He clearly doesn't understand where the power lies in this organization. And he's clearly overestimated his own power
John Dehlin [00:59:55] and influence, which is understandable because we'll show later that the church put him
John Dehlin [01:00:02] forward as one of the most important people in the history of the Church. All right, let's go ahead and continue.
Ballard's Claims About Elder Russell Ballard
Tim Ballard [01:00:08] He came to me in 2012, 2011,
John Dehlin [01:00:16] and I want to just mention one thing that we.
John Dehlin [01:00:18] We missed.
John Dehlin [01:00:19] There is he said Elder.
John Dehlin [01:00:21] Elder Ballard was like a grandfather to me.
John Dehlin [01:00:23] So it's not just like, he's my prophet.
John Dehlin [01:00:26] It's not just we're friends.
John Dehlin [01:00:28] He said grandfather.
John Dehlin [01:00:30] Is that right, Gerardo?
Tim Ballard [01:00:31] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:00:31] Yeah. So that's.
Gerardo Sumano [01:00:33] And let me just say that I think so. I know a person, a good friend of mine, who had a close relationship with Elder Ballard and would use that same exact phrase as a. Like, he would see Elder Ballard as a grandfather figure. And now Elder Ballard has completely caught communications with this person. So, I mean, to me, it doesn't come as a surprise that Elder Ballard would do this because he's done it to a friend of mine as well. So, yeah, I just wanted to mention
John Dehlin [01:01:10] that, yeah, he appears. Elder Ballard appears to have a pattern of taking on the role as a supportive grandfather figure in celebrities. Sort of. We'll just say celebrities kind of lives. But if those celebrities ever dare, apart from, you know, a public position that the church doesn't like, Elder Ballard has no use for you, and he cuts
John Dehlin [01:01:40] you off and won't even return your
John Dehlin [01:01:42] phone calls at that point.
John Dehlin [01:01:43] Won't even meet with you, return your phone calls. So I don't know many grandpas that
John Dehlin [01:01:48] would act that way.
John Dehlin [01:01:49] Right.
John Dehlin [01:01:50] Cut off all communication. If you simply act in a way that doesn't benefit them, that's not very grandfatherly. So that's a disturbing pattern.
▶ Video Clip 5Video Clip 5 [01:02:01] And he told me that he appreciates all the things I'm doing and he wants to help me do it. Never in my life, never have I used his name to raise money
Video Clip 5 [01:02:19] to
Video Clip 5 [01:02:21] make some business deal. What business deal?
Video Clip 5 [01:02:23] I don't have business
John Dehlin [01:02:27] really quickly. We are going to cover that. That outrageous allegation that he has no business is just outrageously untrue. We're going to cover that.
John Dehlin [01:02:36] But also, it is completely impossible that
John Dehlin [01:02:41] Tim Ballard has never used M. Russell Ballard's name in any of his fundraising or any of his interactions with donors. That's just. We don't want to belabor the point, but that's outrageous and clearly false.
Gerardo Sumano [01:02:53] But also notice. Also notice John, that he says that the apostle came to him around 2012, 2011. I mean, and I. They've kept that relationship for a long time.
John Dehlin [01:03:06] Yeah.
Gerardo Sumano [01:03:06] And it's just a few months ago when valor came a relationship with. So it has to be that the apostle knew and as we're gonna show, he was part of the fundraisings. And I mean, the apostle obviously knew that Tim Ballard was using his name. And I'll just say this with respect to what just said about a friend who had a similar experience. It seems like this pattern of Elder Ballard cutting relationships, even with people that would consider him a grandfather figure.
Guest [01:03:37] It.
Tim Ballard [01:03:37] It.
Gerardo Sumano [01:03:38] The pattern always comes when. When the church is at stake, when the church's name, it's about to be could, you know, could. Could be something. Something could be said that would be damaging to the church or something could come out that. That would damage the church's reputation. And that's when Elder Ballard comes and. And cuts. I mean, his loyalty to the church is obviously higher than any relationship that.
Speaker H [01:04:02] That he.
Gerardo Sumano [01:04:03] He has.
John Dehlin [01:04:03] Yeah, it's a. It's a relationship of. Of expediency. It's a relationship of convenience, and it's a relationship of conditional love.
John Dehlin [01:04:10] And I'll say Elder Jeffrey R. Holland was willing to meet with me when
John Dehlin [01:04:14] he felt like I was friendly to the church, but as soon as I started having real concerns about the harm that the church was doing specifically to the LGBTQ community, and there were other reasons. To be fair, Elder Holland did the same thing to me and completely cut me off from any future communications.
John Dehlin [01:04:30] I can't say I fault them because
John Dehlin [01:04:33] they're always trying to manage their reputations. They can't afford in the social media age to be demeaned and degraded.
John Dehlin [01:04:41] So I get it.
John Dehlin [01:04:42] I understand why they have to do that. But it does. It is. It is sad to be on the receiving end of that. So my heart goes out to Tim Ballard here.
John Dehlin [01:04:52] Ever happened.
Tim Ballard [01:04:55] All the press in Utah is claiming that some church representative is saying that I can't get confirmation whether it's true or not true. If it was authorized or not, I don't know. So this is destroying. This is breaking out my family. I do can't believe my children are being harassed right now because everybody believes that the Church of Jesus Christ of Highness that I've defended. For how many years, I've written how many books, how much money Desiree book on my hypothesis books, and nobody can tell me, guess what do you think? I called my state president. I said, do you know about this? No idea.
John Dehlin [01:05:53] Really quickly, I just want to say
John Dehlin [01:05:56] that part about his wife and kids
John Dehlin [01:05:59] being impacted by this.
John Dehlin [01:06:00] As someone who's a public.
John Dehlin [01:06:02] A small public figure, nothing in the realm of. Of Tim Ballard, just in the small role that I have as a public figure. It's been excruciatingly hard at times on my. On my wife, Margi, on my kids. My name's been smeared in public. My. My kids and wife have all experienced, you know, instances of. Of stress or aggression or just weird, inappropriate, awkward kind of conversations as a result of being a public figure. And I want to just say my heart goes out to Tim, who I believe cares about his family and his
John Dehlin [01:06:41] wife, his wife and kids.
John Dehlin [01:06:42] And my heart goes out to Tim's wife and kids and his family and friends because he is getting raked over the coals. He is getting shamed and demeaned publicly.
John Dehlin [01:06:54] And what's weird is it's the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints that's supposedly led by Jesus Christ, the Prince of Peace, the author of Forgiveness, that's leading the charge of shaming and demeaning Tim Ballard. And historically, the Mormon Church has a policy of never discussing publicly disciplinary matters, with the exception of, like my excommunication,
John Dehlin [01:07:22] where the church actually did release a condemning statement about me.
John Dehlin [01:07:27] So many people get excommunicated every week within Mormonism, and you never hear about it because the church has the policy of not smearing or talking about disciplinary actions with members. And by the way, Gerardo, did you ever hear a condemnation of Lori Valo? Did you ever hear a condemnation of Chad Dabel? You know, there are so many awful, egregious murderers and rapists. Have you ever heard the Mormon Church denounce a pedophile or a rapist or a murderer? And the Mormon Church is full. Well, let's just say the Mormon Church has a history of harboring thousands of rapists, pedophiles, child abusers, spouse abusers. Never once has the Mormon Church ever condemned any of those people that I'm aware of by name. And yet it's choosing to Condemn Tim Ballard. Like, isn't that, doesn't that say a lot?
Gerardo Sumano [01:08:28] Well, of course. Well, and, and just, I mean, people are putting it in the comments. Jody Hildebrand, you know who the church paid thousands of dollars, you know, through, in, in tithing money and recommended people to her to go to therapy with her when, I mean, it's come to light that her practices are completely unethical.
John Dehlin [01:08:51] And.
Gerardo Sumano [01:08:52] But yeah, it's, it's. Again, like, I, I think I said it from the beginning. The church doing this is, Is pretty. I mean, it's kind of crazy that they've done this.
John Dehlin [01:09:01] It's shocking. And again, Sam Young's excommunicated for protecting children. Natasha Helfer is excommunicated for practicing ethical mental health. You know, principles. It's just weird.
John Dehlin [01:09:18] And, you know, the Bible says, where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
John Dehlin [01:09:24] I think you could also say, where your condemnations are, there will your heart be also.
John Dehlin [01:09:29] This is just another example of what's most sacred to the Mormon Church. Church. It's not its loyal members. It's not its faithful members. It's not the privacy and the safety and the happiness of its members. It's in its authority and in its public relations image. And that's why it's willing to publicly smear and denounce Tim Ballard against its own policies, because it's afraid that Tim Ballard's behaviors are going to besmirch the Mormon Church's reputation.
John Dehlin [01:10:03] And it's kind of hypocritical. And I feel sorry for Tim and his family that it's being handled this way. All right, let's continue.
Reactions to the Church Publicly Condemning a Member
▶ Video Clip 6Video Clip 6 [01:10:15] I don't believe the church did this. I truly don't. Can you imagine that the Church of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints. Would publicly condemn one of his members?
Video Clip 6 [01:10:35] No.
Video Clip 6 [01:10:35] Without talking to the bishop, the stake president. My state person had no idea.
Video Clip 6 [01:10:42] No.
Video Clip 6 [01:10:43] Is that possible? I have never used elder brother's name ever. I've never treated him.
John Dehlin [01:10:51] His name, really quickly.
John Dehlin [01:10:53] It is outrageous. You know, the church, if it's anything,
John Dehlin [01:10:58] it's a priesthood hierarchy. It's a patriarchy.
John Dehlin [01:11:00] It's a hierarchy. And anytime church discipline is involved, your
John Dehlin [01:11:06] stake president should be notified, and then your bishop should be notified, and you
John Dehlin [01:11:10] should be sat down in private and told what the concerns are. And then a disciplinary council is held to evaluate whether or not you're guilty. And that's the way of things. And the fact that the church did this out of expediency, in reaction to an article it feared would be published without following its own practices of going through the channels of Tim Ballard's ecclesiastical leaders. It is unheard of. It is outrageous and it's inhumane and inexplicable. And I don't mean to just be too ranty, but for those who have never been Mormon, if I'm excited, it's because of how extraordinary and outrageous this is and in violation of the Mormon
John Dehlin [01:11:58] Church's own policies and guidelines.
John Dehlin [01:12:07] Gerardo? Yeah, go ahead, jump in.
John Dehlin [01:12:10] Please jump in when you want to say something.
Gerardo Sumano [01:12:12] So I just wanted to say that. Yeah, I, I agree with you John, there, that, I mean that this should have followed the Mormon due process for her disciplinary. If there was anything wrong. I mean, the reality is that there's no sin that the handbook of instructions, which is the manual or the, you know, the little, the. The book that the bishops follow to, to discipline members when they have committed sin. I mean, there's nothing there that talks about betraying the trust of an apostle.
Speaker J [01:12:44] Right.
Gerardo Sumano [01:12:45] So there's a problem there and then.
John Dehlin [01:12:47] But Gerardo, it could be that the church was given a heads up about allegations of sexual impropriety and the fact that it used the language moral in the newsletter.
John Dehlin [01:13:00] In the church, moral is often synonymous with sexual.
John Dehlin [01:13:04] And so the fact that he was
John Dehlin [01:13:07] alleged to have violated some sort of.
John Dehlin [01:13:10] The fact that he was alleged to have engaged in immoral behavior, that suggests
John Dehlin [01:13:16] that they were tipped off that there were some sexual allegations coming.
John Dehlin [01:13:22] Not to mention it is, you know, breaking the law is potentially punishable, you
John Dehlin [01:13:31] know, in a Mormon church disciplinary council. So breaking the law in fraud would also potentially qualify, although the church tends to be very lenient on white collar crime. Do you agree, Gerardo, or not?
Gerardo Sumano [01:13:42] Yes, I agree. Although I would say that I think the church would wait for there to be. Unless there's a confession, which obviously Tim Ballard is not gonna.
John Dehlin [01:13:52] Right.
Gerardo Sumano [01:13:53] Denying all allegations.
John Dehlin [01:13:54] Yeah.
Gerardo Sumano [01:13:54] The church would wait for a due pro, A judicial due process to. To follow him, a conviction to happen before they would do something like an excommunication or, or discipline the member. When it comes to breaking the law, when it comes to allegations, if those allegations are not coming from, you know, going to the bishop or sick president, which obviously they're not. Or at least that's what Tim is telling us, that the bishop and sick person doesn't know anything. There's not really a process for the media relationship, media relations manager or whatever, to contact the bishop and sick person and say, hey, here, here are the vice news reports. Can you go and investigate this, you know, there's not a process like that. I. I do think there's a little bit of a naiveness or, or he. Maybe I. I know. I don't know. When he says I contacted my stick president, my bishop to see if they knew anything about this statement. I'm like it was a little bit cringe just because for someone that has penetrated, you know, the, the high ranks of the of church headquarters knows that that's not how it usually works. Like bishops and sick prisons are not. Not in communications with apostles or media relations of the church. And they wouldn't know what's really is going on with a statement like this.
Guest [01:15:14] So.
Gerardo Sumano [01:15:14] But I just wanted to point that out.
Speaker H [01:15:16] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:15:16] Okay. All right, let's roll. Let's roll the clip.
▶ Video Clip 7Video Clip 7 [01:15:19] I've never had any business dealings with him. He's like. He's like a grandfather to me. And Leo can to testify. He's a grandfather. He asked me to take him on this tour. President M. Russell Ballard asked me to take him on this tour. I didn't. It wasn't my idea.
Video Clip 7 [01:15:39] You were here, Coop.
Video Clip 7 [01:15:41] I was here.
Video Clip 7 [01:15:43] Tell me what you experienced really quickly. That allegation that they did no business together is totally untrue. And we're gonna address that in a bit.
Video Clip 7 [01:15:55] By the way, if anybody wants to share this with any news outlet, do it. Share it. Something evil is going on. I don't know who's behind it yet.
Video Clip 7 [01:16:09] He loved the tour.
Video Clip 7 [01:16:11] Explain to this group my relationship with President Valor.
Video Clip 7 [01:16:16] He loved the concept of the American Covenant. He loved the store.
Video Clip 7 [01:16:20] He encouraged you to do it.
Video Clip 7 [01:16:23] He thought it was something good.
Video Clip 7 [01:16:24] And I think they encouraged encourage church
Video Clip 7 [01:16:26] members to do good things of their own accord. And he encouraged you to do.
Video Clip 7 [01:16:30] To do this.
Video Clip 7 [01:16:31] Thought it was plain. Who set you apart? Who set you apart? Where did he do it and what did he set you apart to do?
Video Clip 7 [01:16:41] Be a missionary for the church of this Christ.
Video Clip 7 [01:16:44] President Ballard said he. He invited my son up to. This is the place you guys are. You would realize you're participating in history right now. I want you to understand that three. Three days before that horrible story launched, it was leaked to the press that I was going to run from Senate.
John Dehlin [01:17:10] Okay, really quickly.
John Dehlin [01:17:11] I do find it a sad.
John Dehlin [01:17:13] A tiny bit sad as a dad that he's looping his son in on this. If I were him, I don't know, part of me feels like I would try to do everything I could to protect my kids from all of this stuff. Maybe that's just my bias, but that made Me a little bit sad, but how many of us as Mormons have our kids? Was he called on a mission or
John Dehlin [01:17:38] ordained by Elder Ballard? What did he say, Gerardo,
John Dehlin [01:17:44] did you hear?
Gerardo Sumano [01:17:45] You mean the sun?
John Dehlin [01:17:46] Yeah.
Gerardo Sumano [01:17:47] Yeah. Tim asks him, who set you apart?
John Dehlin [01:17:53] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:17:53] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:17:54] Not all of us get our kids
John Dehlin [01:17:56] set apart by apostles. That's an extraordinary privilege that only elite Mormons would get. But. But I'm. I'm a little bit sad that he is involving his son in this.
Gerardo Sumano [01:18:08] But again, I think at this point, Tim is really not believing the media. Like, I think he's thinking that the bias is lying.
John Dehlin [01:18:18] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Tim Ballard [01:18:23] Do you think that's a coincidence? Three days later, you know, Weiss magazine?
John Dehlin [01:18:29] And also, I don't know if he mean. If he meant my leak. I. I will say that.
John Dehlin [01:18:37] That I did publish that little text message that I shared with you earlier about him being told by Jesus that he should announce his candidacy on October 10th because the end is nigh.
John Dehlin [01:18:50] I did share that publicly.
John Dehlin [01:18:52] I don't know if that's the leak he's referring to, but, you know, if I'm guilty, I'm guilty.
Tim Ballard [01:19:00] Vice. Do you think the church would make a statement to Vice? I can't imagine.
John Dehlin [01:19:08] I mean, who has the last laugh?
Tim Ballard [01:19:09] Now magazine has done anti Mormon stories that you can't believe. Vice magazine has promoted the concept that pedophiles should be called minor attractive persons. To normalize it, Vice magazine has more hit pieces on the church than maybe any other. I can't imagine the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints would make a statement to a tabloid.
John Dehlin [01:19:38] I mean, clearly they did.
John Dehlin [01:19:41] So he's wrong.
John Dehlin [01:19:42] I just want to say, on behalf of, you know, my relationship with Anna and Tim, for him to allege that, like Vice is pro, he's kind of inferring that Vice is pro child abuse or pro pedophilia. I think that's egregious and outrageous.
John Dehlin [01:19:59] I think a lot of the people
John Dehlin [01:20:00] that have criticized Tim and Operation Underground Railroad, as I mentioned previously, do it
John Dehlin [01:20:06] because they care about child sex trafficking. They do it because they care about child abuse. They do it because they want legitimate trafficking nonprofits to succeed.
John Dehlin [01:20:18] And they're concerned that Tim Ballard is giving these organizations a bad name, taking credit for things he shouldn't be taking credit for, for committing fraud and taking money and attention away from worthy organizations. But to allege that or to infer that Vice supports child abuse is outrageous and I think sad and untrue.
Tim Ballard [01:20:38] I can't imagine, but I can't confirm it. But I can tell you this, that never, ever have I utilized my friendship with President M. Russell Ballard to raise money. I promise you that you're. This guy's with me. I. I can't go anywhere without him. I'm serious. My wife told me I can't go anywhere. Have I ever used the name of President Emerson Ballard? No.
John Dehlin [01:21:11] To raise money.
Tim Ballard [01:21:13] I keep it as quiet as I can.
John Dehlin [01:21:15] The truth is
Tim Ballard [01:21:18] he was the one who revealed our relationship in a speech in a talk he gave here in Boston.
John Dehlin [01:21:25] Really quickly, that was a little bit
John Dehlin [01:21:27] of an odd admission that his wife won't let him go anywhere without this guy.
John Dehlin [01:21:31] I mean, I guess it could be
John Dehlin [01:21:32] as a bodyguard or as a trusted
John Dehlin [01:21:35] consultant, but that almost implies that his wife doesn't trust him to be alone. I mean, that might be wrong, but I think it gives, maybe it gives a little bit of that impression. Yeah.
Gerardo Sumano [01:21:49] Especially with the article that just came out today on Vice News about the allegations of sex abuse. Harassment.
John Dehlin [01:21:57] Sexual harassment and. Or I think it's going to talk about affairs, Potential affairs, too. Alleged affairs. So anyway, I thought that was interesting,
John Dehlin [01:22:07] but also the guy's clearly. He's got to be on a payroll, right? I mean, yeah, if he's never, if he's always with Tim Ballard, he's got
John Dehlin [01:22:14] to be on the payroll.
John Dehlin [01:22:16] So like having him be a witness as someone on the payroll. Can he disagree right now? In that moment, can he say Tim Ballard? No, actually, I do remember you name
John Dehlin [01:22:26] dropping M. Russell Ballard multiple times.
John Dehlin [01:22:30] I think he's in an untenable position.
Gerardo Sumano [01:22:33] Yeah, I do agree. But also, man, just the evidence of how the Apostle, how much big the involvement was of the Apostle with, with Tim Ballard, our. And you know, all of Tim Ballard's business ventures like this tour, I mean, it's just kind of, it's kind of crazy. Is undeniable. And I mean, I think he said it right there. You know, it was him who would bring me up. And that's true. We're gonna show it how the Apostle would bring me Tim Ballard's name on talks and stuff.
John Dehlin [01:23:09] Yeah, well, I, I'm gonna make an executive decision.
Speaker E [01:23:13] We're.
John Dehlin [01:23:13] We're an hour and a half into this interview and we've got a lot to go.
John Dehlin [01:23:16] So I'm not going to keep playing
John Dehlin [01:23:18] the rest of that video. I think you get the picture.
John Dehlin [01:23:21] He was not only outraged, I, you know, he, he didn't believe it. He was incredulous.
John Dehlin [01:23:28] I think his conspiracy mindedness kind of kicked in and he was kind of doubling down and just denying it.
John Dehlin [01:23:35] And there's a part where he says nothing you hear is true. And to me, I think that was
John Dehlin [01:23:41] the most disturbing part of the whole
John Dehlin [01:23:43] thing because there's kind of this idea in modern society where nobody can agree
John Dehlin [01:23:50] on what truth is, nobody can agree
John Dehlin [01:23:51] on what reality is. And sometimes demagogues just make these broad sweeping denials and generalizations. Of course some of it's true. Of course there's some veracity. So when he makes these broad, sweeping generalizations that nothing's true and he starts to question the reality, that's when we
John Dehlin [01:24:17] start getting into QAnon and conspiracy theory
John Dehlin [01:24:20] thinking and kind of truth denial.
John Dehlin [01:24:23] That is disturbing to me.
Gerardo Sumano [01:24:26] Yeah, I agree.
John Dehlin [01:24:28] Okay.
Apologist Reactions: Glenn Beck and Others
John Dehlin [01:24:28] All right. Well, we're going to go ahead. The next part of this segment is we're going to see some apologists react. And the first one I wanted to share was a post that M. Russell Ballard himself made. Kind of a curiously timed post. This was posted yesterday. And M. Russell Ballard posts not like, hey, my heart goes out to the
John Dehlin [01:24:52] Tim Ballard and his family.
John Dehlin [01:24:54] You know, thanks to Tim Ballard for
John Dehlin [01:24:56] all the good things he did.
John Dehlin [01:24:58] Sorry that we flubbed the PR announcement. You really did a lot of thanks for all the money you earned for us at Deseret Book. Sorry I didn't tell your stake president and bishop. Sorry I hijacked you and caught you off guard. None of that.
John Dehlin [01:25:13] It was.
John Dehlin [01:25:13] The Savior is more interested in our personal growth than our mistakes. Repentance helps us become true and faithful sons and daughters of God. We are only eventually made perfect only
John Dehlin [01:25:25] through Jesus Christ and his perfect atonement.
John Dehlin [01:25:28] Does that strike you as a little bit odd, Gerardo?
Gerardo Sumano [01:25:31] Yeah. Especially a picture, right? A little bit odd.
John Dehlin [01:25:34] Well, what is it about the picture that's odd?
John Dehlin [01:25:36] For those who are listening, I think
Gerardo Sumano [01:25:38] the picture represents the adulterous women. At least that's.
John Dehlin [01:25:43] And Jesus hugging them.
John Dehlin [01:25:46] Like, I wonder if. I wonder if.
Tim Ballard [01:25:48] If.
John Dehlin [01:25:49] I really wonder. I wonder if Tim Ballard felt hugged by M. Russell Ballard when the Vice
John Dehlin [01:25:55] News article came out. You know, akin to Jesus hugging the. The adulterous caught in an affair.
John Dehlin [01:26:03] I don't mean to be too heavy
John Dehlin [01:26:05] handed there, but I just. That. That just seems really.
John Dehlin [01:26:10] It just seems really tone deaf and
John Dehlin [01:26:11] inappropriate for what he just did to his metaphorical grandson. Am I wrong?
Gerardo Sumano [01:26:17] Yeah. I mean, there's also the. There's also the possibility that all these posts are curated months or weeks in advance and that it's ob. It's not the apostle who's actually tweeting this stuff. I mean, you know, there's, there's a possibility of that too, but.
Guest [01:26:33] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:26:35] Well, thanks for that, Gerardo. All right. The next reaction that I thought was really fascinating and was almost in as
John Dehlin [01:26:42] shocking as the Tim Ballard announcement itself.
John Dehlin [01:26:46] Glenn Beck himself, on the app formerly known as Twitter, now I believe it's known as X. He writes the following. Things my church never used to do. And this was on the 17th, so this was yesterday. Things my church never used to do. One effectively excommunicate church members without giving them adequate notice of or an opportunity to respond to accusations. Now, really quickly, I think Glenn Beck is passionate about this because he co founded at least one or two nonprofits with Tim Ballard. They fundraise together. As I understand it, they're friends, they're buddy buddies together. And so that, you know, he's sticking up for his friend, his friend. But I think he also is aligned ideologically with a lot of what Tim Ballard does. So clearly Glenn Beck is upset and he's unloading on the Mormon Church. The second point he writes. Were you going to say something, Gerardo?
Gerardo Sumano [01:27:53] No, go ahead.
John Dehlin [01:27:54] Okay, second point. This is Glenn Beck unloading on the Mormon Church. Second thing the Mormon Church never used to do effectively excommunicate church members by means of public statements issued to the news media by unnamed church spokespersons. I have a comment about that.
John Dehlin [01:28:14] I'll save it till after I read all of Glenn Beck's points.
John Dehlin [01:28:17] The third point is, and I would just say Glenn Beck's kind of right there, that as I mentioned before, historically the Mormon Church doesn't publicly smear its
John Dehlin [01:28:28] faithful members even if they've done something wrong.
John Dehlin [01:28:31] So that's accurate, that concern. The third is Glenn Beck says the Mormon Church used to never effectively excommunicate church members through ambiguous but unquestionably damning statements casually provided to publications that hate the church, its members and everything they stand for. Now that depends because the church has
John Dehlin [01:28:53] issued statements that it's shared in the South Tribune.
John Dehlin [01:28:55] You could argue that the church hates
John Dehlin [01:28:59] the Salt Lake Tribune. I think the Salt Lake Tribune would
John Dehlin [01:29:01] not agree with that and I wouldn't either.
John Dehlin [01:29:04] Maybe historically there's been a love hate relationship with the Salt Lake Tribune, but
John Dehlin [01:29:09] certainly these ambiguous statements of immorality and
John Dehlin [01:29:13] of disloyalty is super uncharacteristic of the Mormon Church.
John Dehlin [01:29:17] 4. Glenn Beck writes, A fourth thing the Mormon Church never used to do is effectively excommunicate church members from church headquarters with neither involvement or notice to local ecclesiastical leaders. Now this one took a lot of people by Surprise. Gerardo, do you have any idea or speculation as to what he meant by effectively excommunicate church members from church headquarters?
Gerardo Sumano [01:29:47] Well, he's saying. So he's saying that church headquarters decided to excommunicate.
John Dehlin [01:29:54] Okay, okay, okay, okay.
Gerardo Sumano [01:29:57] I mean this idea. Oh, I see a sick person. We're not contacted again, I, I mean I'm with the church on this. Like how would you go about it? Like, there's not really a sin that has been committed. Obviously Tim Ballard is going to deny any allegations. So the bishop and sick person can't really do anything about it. If the church media public relations have a suspicion that any of these allegations are true, I mean, there's not really a means to go about it. Like, I'll give you an example. My, my husband's dad, my father in law is a bishop at BYU Idaho and just a few weeks ago there was an allegation made by a girl at BYU Idaho from a different ward than, than his, that one of his, uh, that one of his, one of the members in, in my father in law's word had raped her. And so there was this, there, it was this really hard kind of moment where like there was not really a process into like how, how, how are we supposed to go about this? Because the allegation came from a girl in a different word. And like, and the confession was not coming directly from the actual member of the Word. So the only thing that the bishop could do was kind of like interview the guy and say did you do this? And he's like, just go about it. Like there's, there's not really a process for it. So, and especially with these allegations which maybe are somewhat ambiguous, there's not really a name attached to this. A lot of these allegations of sexual harassment because of obvious reasons of fear of retaliation. I mean it's really hard. There's not really a process to go about it. I mean the, this is the only way in my view that the church could have handled it, which is kind of just associate with Tim Ballard publicly because there's not really a way to like what is the bishop and state prison going to do, you know?
John Dehlin [01:31:52] Yeah, I mean, I think in the
John Dehlin [01:31:55] real practical world which the Mormon Church leaders live in, this is probably the most expedient decision for the Mormon Church. This is probably the best decision, you know, in the best interest of the church.
John Dehlin [01:32:09] And the problem with that is you
John Dehlin [01:32:12] juxtapose it with like Jesus Christ teachings about leaving the 99 to go after
John Dehlin [01:32:16] the 1 the Mormon Church would Have
John Dehlin [01:32:18] its members believe that their health and safety is always going to come as a priority over the health and safety and security of the corporate organization. And clearly that's unrealistic and that's not true. But I think there's probably a lot of members that believe that the church would never do this to one of its own.
John Dehlin [01:32:43] And you can hear it in the people in the crowd. They're just like not believing it.
John Dehlin [01:32:47] Right. Because the church teaches that you leave the 99 to go after the 1. And this just.
John Dehlin [01:32:54] You could make a really good case,
John Dehlin [01:32:56] Gerardo, that this is a fantastic corporate decision, but a horrendously unchristian decision.
John Dehlin [01:33:03] Right?
John Dehlin [01:33:04] Unchristlike decision. Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:33:07] Okay. The fifth point that Glenn Beck writes
John Dehlin [01:33:10] that his church, Mormon Church, never used to do is effectively excommunicate church members through church staff, not priesthood offices.
John Dehlin [01:33:20] So that was Glenn Beck's tirade as of yesterday and immediately as I said that, first of all, I was shocked that a super prominent, internationally known loyalist, faithful defender of the Mormon Church was jumping on the Tim Ballard bandwagon and criticizing Mormon Church leadership, although in kind of a veiled way. He didn't name anybody, but he certainly criticized the Mormon Church, which we covenant in the Mormon temples, by the way, never to do, to never speak ill of the Lord's anointed. Now, people, Mormons may interpret that covenant in different ways, but I read that
John Dehlin [01:34:03] as a criticism, as an overt, direct criticism of the Mormon Church.
John Dehlin [01:34:08] Do you think I'm overstating that, Gerardo?
Gerardo Sumano [01:34:10] No, I totally agree with you.
John Dehlin [01:34:11] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:34:13] And so that's surprising because you end up like me, John Dehlin, if you
John Dehlin [01:34:18] ever publicly criticize the teachings or the behavior of the Mormon Church.
John Dehlin [01:34:24] So you know, Glenn Beck was really
John Dehlin [01:34:26] skating on thin ice for 12 minutes or however long he kept that tweet up.
John Dehlin [01:34:30] My response was the following. With respect, Glenn Beck, I'm not sure you know the Church of Jesus Christ
John Dehlin [01:34:38] of Latter Day Saints very well.
John Dehlin [01:34:39] The Mormon Church uses you until you're no longer useful.
John Dehlin [01:34:43] Then they discard you.
John Dehlin [01:34:45] Happened to me. It's been that way since 1830.
John Dehlin [01:34:48] Oddly, I actually feel empathy for Tim Ballard and anybody who's been paying attention
John Dehlin [01:34:54] to the way the Mormon Church over the past 10 or 15 years has excommunicated people. Almost like it was passing out candy. Whether it's Sam Young, Natasha Helfer, myself, Jeremy Runnels, Leah and Cody Young, several legally same sex married couples, Denver Snuffer, all the snufferites that have been excommunicated, there's Just so many. The only people the church seems unwilling to excommunicate, literally, are pedophiles and child abusers and rapists. Somehow they don't get excommunicated. But the truth tellers and the critics are excommunicated.
John Dehlin [01:35:33] And I'm on a rant now. I'll back off.
Gerardo Sumano [01:35:35] No, I agree.
John Dehlin [01:35:37] Within a short amount of time, it was clear that Glenn Beck got cold feet, put his tail between his legs,
John Dehlin [01:35:45] deleted that tweet, and instead replaced it with this one.
John Dehlin [01:35:49] Glenn Beck wrote, the Lord is aware of our needs and struggles. He and he alone will serve justice
John Dehlin [01:35:55] and restore all things to truth. This is his world, not ours. This is his way, and his way is not ours. Have faith.
John Dehlin [01:36:03] I have no idea what made Glenn
John Dehlin [01:36:05] Beck turn around and run away
John Dehlin [01:36:10] and delete his criticisms. It could be that someone in the know called him and said, hey, Glenn Beck, you don't know what Tim Ballard has done.
John Dehlin [01:36:20] Let me tell you about all the allegations against him.
John Dehlin [01:36:24] Or they could have just simply said, hey, Glenn Beck, do you want to face excommunication? Or they could have pressed any of the financial or power levers that they have.
John Dehlin [01:36:34] But it's clear that even the great,
John Dehlin [01:36:37] mighty Glenn Beck, you know, turned and
John Dehlin [01:36:40] ran when the heat was on from the Mormon Church leadership.
John Dehlin [01:36:44] Anything you want to add, Gerardo?
Gerardo Sumano [01:36:46] No. I mean, that's what happened.
John Dehlin [01:36:49] That's what happened.
John Dehlin [01:36:50] I thought another common reaction in, let's just say, kind of the desnat neoconservative
John Dehlin [01:36:59] Twitter spaces and Mormonism was just denial.
John Dehlin [01:37:02] So here's a Twitter post by Jacob. What's his name? Jacob Hanson. Is that right?
Gerardo Sumano [01:37:09] Yep.
John Dehlin [01:37:10] His response was, if this woman was a real journalist instead of a Godbeit hack. So basically, apparently, Peggy Fletcher Stack of the Salt Lake Tribune, who is a faithful, committed, believing Mormon, by the way, she basically tweeted, you know, check out Robert Gerke's column in in the Salt Lake Tribune on the LDS Church's condemnation of Tim Ballard. And she just asked people what they thought. Jacob Hanson sort of does not. Apologist, neo conservative Jacob Hanson responds. If this woman was a real journalist instead of a Godbeit hack, that's an
John Dehlin [01:37:50] obscure historical reference to a critical Mormon group in the late 1900s in Salt Lake City, the Godbeites, Jacob Hanson continues.
John Dehlin [01:38:01] She would have an actual official LDS
John Dehlin [01:38:04] source for her claims.
John Dehlin [01:38:06] So who was it? Religion Gal, who was the official from the church that put out this condemnation on behalf of the church. You should be ashamed. So Jacob Hansen is telling Peggy Fletcher Stack she should be ashamed he's wagging
John Dehlin [01:38:21] his finger at Peggy Fletcher Stack. And I think the joke's on Jacob Hansen because Peggy Fletcher Stack had it right.
Tim Ballard [01:38:28] Right.
John Dehlin [01:38:29] This source has been identified, the statement
John Dehlin [01:38:32] has been validated, and there Jacob Hanson
John Dehlin [01:38:35] was invoking a conspiracy to question the
John Dehlin [01:38:39] validity of the statement instead of doing
John Dehlin [01:38:42] his homework and realizing that it was legitimate.
Russell Brunson Defends Tim Ballard
John Dehlin [01:38:45] Now, the next apologist that we want to mention was brought to me attention by my friend Anthony, but also by you, Gerardo. So do you want to tell us really quickly who this Russell Brunson is?
Speaker G [01:39:00] Yeah.
Gerardo Sumano [01:39:02] So anyone that's tuned in into marketing, web design, any of that, would know who Russell Brunson is. So he, he spent the last 20 years, you know, becoming probably a billionaire at this point by creating courses and creating the funnel model for websites. He created the Click Funnel, the Click Funnel company which has made millions and millions of dollars selling courses and teaching people how to make their websites and, and, and especially e commerce websites generate more, more sales. And he charges a lot for these courses and has created like this, almost like a, almost like an MLM type company. It's, it's a little bit interesting just the model of the company, but he's, he's really prominent. He's the face of his company. So a lot of people know him, know who he is. I mean you'll probably see him, if you follow anything about web design, you'll probably seen his ads over and over again on your social media. And he's the face of the ads, he's the one that sells the courses. And of course he's not the one that necessarily teaches personally, but because I mean he's, he, he's so rich but bit. But anyway, he, he's very prominent and he happens to be Mormon and, and he, he came out with a statement in regards to Team Balak is now, uh, it comes out that he has also been involved with Tim Ballard and the Apostle all, all three of them together. And so let's listen to what he has to say.
John Dehlin [01:40:39] Yeah. And if I could, if I could just, if I could just add, like if you, um, I'll pull up the screen really quick and if you go to YouTube and you Google Russell Brunson, Operation Underground Railroad, you'll see that he has been a supporter of our.
John Dehlin [01:41:01] And of Tim Ballard for years.
John Dehlin [01:41:04] And in some of those sort of text bro, kind of tech bro, Silicon Slopes events, you'll see Russell Brunson on stage with Tim Ballard and you'll hear
John Dehlin [01:41:17] them talking about their support for each other.
John Dehlin [01:41:21] And so Russell Brunson isn't just like an independent, objective observer here. He's clearly been a partner with Tim Ballard over the years. And so he probably feels invested
John Dehlin [01:41:36] and committed to Tim. Tim. Everything Tim Ballard has, has done and is doing. And so I think that. I think that's important to mention. Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:41:46] Okay, so let's. Let's go ahead and play the first
John Dehlin [01:41:49] clip of Russell Brunson defending Tim Ballard.
Speaker J [01:41:54] So the most recent article that came out was basically saying that the Mormon Church was against Tim Ballard and this whole huge thing. And it's this big. This big scandal. And it's interesting because the way that I found out about Tim Ballard and the operation on Ground ROTOR was actually from Elder Ballard. He personally called me and asked me to help Tim Ballard in Operation Underground Road. I have literally sat in the rooms with Elder Ballard and Tim Ballard as we discussed these things and these ideas. And so I want to start with. Again, these are not my stories to tell, but just to let you know that the accusations that. That they're being made on the media are not true. As someone who was literally in the room when these conversations were happening. So that's number one. I wish I could go into a lot of detail, but they're not my stories.
John Dehlin [01:42:41] So, Gerardo, what.
John Dehlin [01:42:43] What did you think was interesting about that clip?
Gerardo Sumano [01:42:46] I mean, he's saying that he was. That. Well, the. The reason he found out about Tim Ballard is because the apostle called him personally. You wonder, like, how. How does this apostle have the numbers of all these billionaires and millionaires, Mormons? I don't know. That's. That's interesting. But. But yeah, so the apostle calls him and. And that's how he finds out about Tim Ballard. Apostle says, you got. You gotta support Tim.
John Dehlin [01:43:11] Yeah.
Gerardo Sumano [01:43:12] Kind of like in contrast to the. To the statement that the church put out to Vice News and. And then Desert News. And again, this is probably before Desert News put up the article.
John Dehlin [01:43:26] Right. So maybe he was still incredulous that it was a credible statement from. From the Mormon Church.
Gerardo Sumano [01:43:34] Yeah, I mean, imagine if you were them. Like, these guys are in the room with the apostles several times, planning how they're gonna, you know, bring all these people to the church through Operation on the Ground Railroad, how they're gonna bring donors and millionaires to come fund the organization.
Speaker H [01:43:51] And.
Gerardo Sumano [01:43:51] And the apostle sitting right there, he's the one basically, you know, bringing all the context to Tim. I mean, he's. I mean, he's pro. I mean, I would be the same, you know, like, kind of like not Believing the what. What Vice is saying.
John Dehlin [01:44:06] Yeah. Really quickly, I'm going to share a comment that was made. Eric Sorensen writes, russell is a good man. He is the real deal. Spent a lot of time with him. Him. And he has a huge heart.
John Dehlin [01:44:19] I. Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:44:20] I want to say, Eric, we're not trashing Russell Brunson. He seems like a really nice guy. I just think. I think it's. We're. We're just trying to show some of the apologetic reactions in defense of him. But I'm sure Russell Brunson's a good guy. I do want to thank.
John Dehlin [01:44:41] It's fine.
John Dehlin [01:44:43] For their Super Chat donation. These donations help pay for all our staff and resources. It's fine. Writes exceptional coverage this month. And always, thanks for that super Chat donation. Powerline safety guy writes, mind blown. Thanks for this, John. Doug Vincent is a regular viewer and listener. He writes.
John Dehlin [01:45:01] Love seeing you and Gerardo teaming up the dynamic duo. You're Batman, I'm Robin. Is that okay, Gerardo?
Gerardo Sumano [01:45:07] That's okay.
John Dehlin [01:45:08] That's perfect. All right.
John Dehlin [01:45:12] All right. Well, let's go ahead and go to
John Dehlin [01:45:13] the next clip of Russell Brunson.
Speaker J [01:45:19] Like, when I first got involved in if ou are with Tim Ballard, I was warned by multiple people, including Tim and Elder Ballard. Like, if you decide to go down this path, the gates of hell were gonna be going begin, open up, and, like, people will be attacking you. You'll be like, they warn me for that, knowing that if I was going to go step and help in this. In them with these things that was gonna happen to me personally and if it's happening to me and if I've been attacked, because imagine how much worse it is for Tim, like, when he finds somebody who's doing human trafficking, somebody who is a legitimately horrible human being, right? He finds this person, arrests them or is about to arrest them or building a case against them. He's got, like, the ability to stop somebody who's doing the most evil things on this planet right now. What's that person going to do? They're not going to lay over, like, oh, fine, take me, right? That person is going to come back and they have to attack the character, the person who's attacking them. Like, you look at, like, how to get uncancelled. Like, the whole playbook teaches you how to get uncancelled. Like, you have to attack the character, the person who's trying to cancel you. That's it. That's the playbook. Come back to media manipulation one on one. Like the way you attack somebody who's attacking you to fight their character. So you come out, you have the deepest, darkest, most evil people who literally make making tens of millions of dollars through human trafficking. Tim is finding these people, arresting them, getting them on trial, these kind of things. It's not that expensive them to hire a good PR firm for 50 grand to go and build a campaign to go and smear the, a character of the person. Like that's the reality. What's happening?
John Dehlin [01:46:40] All right, Gerardo, what do you think? It was interesting about that?
Gerardo Sumano [01:46:43] I mean, just think about this guy. This guy's Russell and Tim. Both of them believe that this guy is sitting in front of them, making the calls, calling them to come to these meetings and planning how they're going to save these children. This guy talks to Jesus every Thursday in the, in the Salt Lake Temple. I mean they see him as a, as not just a spiritual figure, but literally, you know, a prophet like Moses. And, and when this guy is telling Russell like you know, the apostle and Russell Ballard is saying, Russell, if you decide to support us, the gates of hell are going to be open against you. Are you sure you want to do this? Like, you know, imagine how serious this guy is taking this responsibility of supporting Tim Ballard. I mean it's huge.
John Dehlin [01:47:32] Yeah, I, I, what I'd like to
John Dehlin [01:47:34] say in response, everything you said, but
John Dehlin [01:47:36] also I, I really don't like sort
John Dehlin [01:47:40] of this, this comes all the way from Joseph Smith and there's probably a
John Dehlin [01:47:44] human element to this. But this idea that whenever you have
John Dehlin [01:47:48] adversity, it's the adversary, it's Lucifer, it's
John Dehlin [01:47:51] Satan and his minions coming after you to destroy you. That's okay if they believe that. But what that allows you to do is not take responsibility for any errors
John Dehlin [01:48:06] or mistakes, sincere errors or mistakes that you've made.
John Dehlin [01:48:09] And that feels like a shield, like a rhetorical shield that he and Tim Ballard are using to. Because how could you ever criticize Tim Ballard or Operation Underground Railroad? It doesn't leave any room for legitimate criticism because it's all Satan and it's all evil fighting good. And that's exactly what they would say about Joseph Smith. You know, Joseph Smith maybe, you know, married 14 year olds, married sister pairs, married multiple teenagers, married other men's wives, hid it from his own wife, lied about it. But, but we were all taught that, that those allegations were just, you know, liars, anti Mormon liars trying to besmirch
John Dehlin [01:48:54] God's chosen servants reputation.
John Dehlin [01:48:57] And I just, I just think it's, I see why they do it. It's a gimmick. He probably believes it, but it. It fails to take any responsibility for any bad actions. And clearly Tim Ballard is guilty of at least some bad actions.
John Dehlin [01:49:15] He'll say that himself, so.
Gerardo Sumano [01:49:18] Well, I. I just want to know, John. I mean, the implication of an apostle, a prophet, seer, and revelation revelator jumping in this bandwagon of, oh, any criticism against Tim Ballard or o ur are, is the gates of heaven opening against them. And if you support this, you know, Satan is going to be fighting you harder. Like, what does that tell you about, you know, a prophet's here in Revelator, someone that's supposed to be a spiritual leader for this worldwide church. And now with all this stuff that coming that come out, and now you know him through church PR saying, like, he doesn't even know this guy that well. Well, I mean, I don't know. It's kind of crazy. I. I mean, this. This story to me, or the big. A big part of the story is another apostle from the church, you know, falling for or. Well, first of all, lying because, you know, by saying that he's not super related to him these, you know, or he doesn't really know him that well, he's kind of lying. And then. And then also, you know, what does that say about his spirit of discernment or being able to tell?
John Dehlin [01:50:31] Yeah, and we've got slides. We've got slides about that later. The other thing I just want to
John Dehlin [01:50:36] say is, as someone who has openly
John Dehlin [01:50:40] criticized the church for LGBTQ deaths, for
John Dehlin [01:50:43] hiding its history, for not providing its
John Dehlin [01:50:46] members with informed consent for its problematic
John Dehlin [01:50:51] past, I think what. What Russell Brunson was just telegraphing is the way the church deals with its
John Dehlin [01:50:57] own critics by smearing them. Because I have certainly been on the
John Dehlin [01:51:01] receiving end of the smears of paid Mormon apologists. And so I think he was kind of tipping the Mormon Church's hand in actually how the Mormon Church treats its
John Dehlin [01:51:14] own prominent critics by hiring PR firms to attack their credibility and their reputation and their character. Anyway, I'm just. That's a little bit of my stuff. Let's go to the third clip those things.
▶ Video Clip 8Video Clip 8 [01:51:31] Just be fully aware he's being attacked from the outside. This is not the truth.
Video Clip 8 [01:51:35] Okay.
Video Clip 8 [01:51:36] This is not the truth again. And I just come from someone who literally, I've been in the rooms with him and Elder Ballard talking about these things. Okay, I've been in the rooms. Ella Bauer is going to introduce me. Tim never came to me and, like, told me some big story about Elder Ballard. And I tried to get me in. It was the opposite way around. Okay, so fully, you need to understand this is the way it's actually work. This is the actual truth, not some rogue employee who got fired because they were bad at their job. Lying behind between the teeth, like, is what literally the sources are. If you look at where they're getting
John Dehlin [01:52:00] this stuff, like, it's okay, Gerardo.
Gerardo Sumano [01:52:05] I mean, it's just the same, you know, the apostle and saying how. How close they are with the apostle. I mean, personally, I don't doubt it. Some people are saying, how do you know that's true? I mean, it's coming from different people. You know, it's not an impermanent people. So I don't know.
John Dehlin [01:52:20] And again, I don't know. That never.
On the Term Anti-Mormon and Critical Voices
John Dehlin [01:52:21] Mormons really understand this, but the term anti Mormon is offensive to many of us who no longer believe in the church or who criticize the church, who have left the church.
John Dehlin [01:52:35] You can love the Mormon people.
John Dehlin [01:52:37] You can even love the Mormon Church and criticize it. In fact, you could argue that criticizing
John Dehlin [01:52:44] and holding the church accountable is a true act of love because you care about it and you want it to be more healthy and you want it to do better, and you want its members and its leaders to be healthy and happy. But what the church too often does
John Dehlin [01:52:58] is it uses this term anti Mormon, to smear and dismiss. It's legitimate critics, and I don't like it when that term is used. And most of the people who run in my circles don't like that term. It's just a way to invalidate and denigrate and dismiss.
John Dehlin [01:53:18] All right, the next I'm about to violate one of the Cardinal rules of
John Dehlin [01:53:23] Mormon stories, which is to ever play a clip from the actors and entertainers formerly known, known as Midnight Mormons. You know, there's basically three guys that run this YouTube channel. Cardinalis Kwaku L and Brad Lee Whitbeck.
John Dehlin [01:53:42] And you know, before they did Midnight Mormons, at least Kwaku and Brad were.
John Dehlin [01:53:48] Were involved in what.
John Dehlin [01:53:50] What were the Saints unscripted? Is that what it was called? The YouTube channels that were probably pro
John Dehlin [01:53:57] Mormon church, but eventually they broke off with Cardin and started this super critical.
John Dehlin [01:54:03] Well, this YouTube channel dedicated to, like I just said, attacking critics of the church. We don't know how much they get paid for their efforts. We don't know to what extent wealthy
John Dehlin [01:54:15] Mormons and shady nonprofits are funding them.
John Dehlin [01:54:19] I don't like to share their stuff because they typically lie and misrepresent things just to give you a couple examples,
John Dehlin [01:54:29] I once filed a police report on some violent material that they shared.
John Dehlin [01:54:33] I have a copy of the police report on my desk, and they claimed that I faked the police report.
John Dehlin [01:54:42] Totally made up conspiracy theory kind of people. Another time I. I publicized that my
John Dehlin [01:54:52] TikTok account had been canceled, which it
John Dehlin [01:54:56] had, because I'd been reported by probably them and others.
John Dehlin [01:55:00] And then when I claimed that the
John Dehlin [01:55:01] TikTok account had been canceled, they claimed that I took it down intentionally just to get sympathy. And I have the screenshots of TikTok canceling my account.
John Dehlin [01:55:16] You know, they just tell a lot of lies and they've smeared me with really horrible allegations. So generally I don't ever share anything that they do.
John Dehlin [01:55:25] And I ignore them because I see
John Dehlin [01:55:26] them as, you know, I. They're people too, but I just don't
John Dehlin [01:55:30] see their work as respectable or very credible.
John Dehlin [01:55:33] Although they are entertaining and they are
John Dehlin [01:55:35] smart, I'll give them that.
John Dehlin [01:55:37] And their. Their following is starting to grow. So having said that, I was taken aback by how disturbed they were by the church's behavior. And so the next thing I want to do is play the reflections of three likely paid. They certainly accept Venmo donations from their supporters. So three apologists and admitted defenders of the Mormon Church.
Right-Wing Commentators React to the Church's Statement
John Dehlin [01:56:05] So let's sort of play some of their reactions to the church's attacks on Tim Ballard.
▶ Video Clip 9Video Clip 9 [01:56:13] By the way, if anybody wants to share this with any news outlet, do it. Share it. Something evil is going on. I don't know who's behind it yet.
Video Clip 9 [01:56:27] Yeah, that's powerful.
Video Clip 9 [01:56:28] He just said something evil is going on. I don't know who's behind it yet.
Video Clip 9 [01:56:32] Yet.
Video Clip 9 [01:56:34] That is. Yeah, there's.
Video Clip 9 [01:56:36] Those are some tough.
Video Clip 9 [01:56:37] And by the way, I will always trust the man that says anything I've said with anybody.
Video Clip 9 [01:56:42] Share it.
Video Clip 9 [01:56:43] Yeah.
Video Clip 9 [01:56:44] Meanwhile, I'm not seeing all these church office building people. I. I've.
Video Clip 9 [01:56:49] These cowards wouldn't even put their name on the statement. Initially. They gave it to Vice and didn't even leave a name.
Video Clip 9 [01:56:55] Fox have to say, take me off.
Video Clip 9 [01:56:58] I mean, that is the most cowardice thing ever. You're going to publicly condemn a man who's dedicated his life to the church and then not even leave a name as to who's doing it? We have to find out hours later on one article when they say, I guess it was sent by this church. I mean, I don't know Doug Anderson. But if the narrative that seems to be true about how this went to be happened, then Doug has been A total coward in this situation. Situation 100.
Video Clip 9 [01:57:27] Yeah.
Video Clip 9 [01:57:27] And again, yeah, I wonder how that guy's feeling right now. Like, what I want.
Video Clip 9 [01:57:32] I want to extend grace to this man and say, look, maybe this. Maybe there's an explanation for this.
Video Clip 9 [01:57:36] How Tim Ballard's kids feel with a bunch of their freaking school kids texting them, being like, lol, the prophet hates you, dad.
Video Clip 9 [01:57:43] You know, Doug, reach out, my man. I reached out. I reached out to the church. I talked to the PR people, and I was given the rigamarole role of, you got to go to newsroom@churchofjesuschrist.org and all this other crap, even though I'm.
Video Clip 9 [01:57:58] Which is the stupidest thing to do because the newsroom didn't even have the gall to publish this. So we're supposed to go to the newsroom to get this information when they got to leak it to Vice and I.
Video Clip 9 [01:58:07] And I'm only saying we have operated ethically within the channels that the church prescribes in order to get commentary on this very sensitive issue of did you, as a formal church and a large entity, condemn an individual member without using the proper channels of the priesthood to denounce him? If you did, oh, amen to your priesthood. Amen to your priesthood. If you didn't, and if this is all just a misunderstanding, we suggest you talk and you clarify that. But right now, we're not getting talk and we're not getting clarity. And it's making us think you either got either not in control of your own PR department. We all know how that goes. It's a big organization. It's a worldwide church. We can't be batting 1000 as mortals. Okay? But you got to come out. You got to say that. Because if not, you're having some of the most enthusiastic defensors of you saying, did the church just denounce an individual without talking to his bishop, without talking to a stake president, without talking to X, Y, or Z? And if he did do it, what is it for? Well, they haven't said what it's for yet. Just this vagary of morally unacceptable behavior.
Video Clip 9 [01:59:22] Yeah. I think when I look at the Fox 13 article where we got the info on Doug Anderson being the person behind this, they say they quote Tim Ballard saying, I can't believe the church did this. I truly don't. Can you imagine the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints would publicly condemn one of its members? And then they say, apparently the answer is yes, they would. The church's statement was sent by Doug Anderson from his official churchofjesuschrist.org email address. And so again, this is a different news organization saying this is completely the church's statement and then backs it up with just. Doug Anderson sent it from his official.
Video Clip 9 [02:00:01] I have an old, old FairMormon.org email address. If I rant on how incompetent I think the PR division of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is to some, I don't know, beat reporter for the LA Times, it doesn't mean that I'm officially commenting on behalf of all of Fair Mormon.
Video Clip 9 [02:00:24] Yeah, okay, it does if you're the director of media relations for Fair Mormon Now.
Video Clip 9 [02:00:29] Now we're starting to get in the nitty gritty.
Video Clip 9 [02:00:30] You were the janitor on, of course, Key Bank. It doesn't mean you're speaking for, you know, Deseret First Credit Union, but this is, I mean, this is the guy. I mean, the director of media relation for 15 years sent this device condemning Tim Ballard, calling him a betrayer and saying he's doing things that are morally unacceptable.
Video Clip 9 [02:00:52] And so look, look, if this is all the Mitt Romney camp putting pressure on a MAGA candidate and using the church and PR representatives as leverage. Wildly unethical. If that's not true, and it's just, you know, this Doug guy as a rogue operator casting aspersions upon a fellow member simply because he's running for political office and he doesn't like that campaign or that person or whatever. Wildly unethical. If it is a church who doesn't have handle of its own employees well enough that it can't keep them from doing this kind of thing and it happens and they don't come out and say, no, we love our members, all of our members in good standing will be treated ethically. This is a rogue actor or else a rogue politician or a rogue whatever. Wildly unethical. Like, like in all 15 scenarios we look at so far, the treatment of Tim Ballard to me has violated every.
Video Clip 9 [02:01:48] Is Tim Ballard Sweeney Todd and he's making people in the pies and we don't know it. Like he had to have done something, something horrific for them. Like, nah, this was so bad we didn't even bother with the stake President Bishop. Yeah, straight to it. Like, the cops are on their way to arrest him right now. Like that's the only way. I mean, because this is effectively excommunicating somebody from the fold publicly, this stupid
Video Clip 9 [02:02:12] thing to have done. Because, like, even when Mitt Romney was running for president, the church didn't officially endorse him. You know, the church stays out of, of this kind of garbage. You know, they don't get involved in this political stuff. So like I, I just find myself over and over thinking, why would anyone do this? Yeah, what was the point?
John Dehlin [02:02:33] So I mean, I'm just gonna, I'm
John Dehlin [02:02:35] just gonna reiterate some of the words I heard those guys levy at the Church.
John Dehlin [02:02:39] Cowardly, wildly unethical. Amen to your priesthood.
John Dehlin [02:02:45] So that's basically in a, in apostasy, right? Incompetent, stupid.
John Dehlin [02:02:53] Those are some of the words that the Church's apologists, some of their top, most prominent apologists are using to attack the Church. I wonder if the church is going to hire apologists to attack its apologists for criticizing the Church. And the only other thing I was going to say is that I can't wait to see how their confirmation bias
John Dehlin [02:03:17] and their motivated reasoning kick in because
John Dehlin [02:03:20] clearly right now they're unhinged and angry. But I'm sure just like Glenn Beck
John Dehlin [02:03:28] was whipped back into line, I'm sure
John Dehlin [02:03:30] they're hearing from their sources of authority
John Dehlin [02:03:33] and power and I'm sure their tails will be returning to between their legs and they will end up up, you know, backtracking or, or kind of went weaseling out of their courage that they currently feel. Gerardo, was there anything noteworthy that you saw in those comments?
Tim Ballard [02:03:53] I.
Gerardo Sumano [02:03:53] He was walking through the different scenarios, you know, the, the PR guy or the media relations guy being rogue, being like a fringe politician, undercover person.
John Dehlin [02:04:03] Yeah, they totally, they totally start the episode by saying Mitt Romney made a
John Dehlin [02:04:08] phone call and that's what happened. It was Mitt Romney's fault. Yeah, yep, blame Mitt Romney.
Gerardo Sumano [02:04:13] But none of those scenarios include the apostle, you know, being involved in this statement, which is like, yeah, relations guy would know about the relationship of Ballard and how it soured and how long has. Has it been since, since you know, they don't talk and all those details about the relationship without him talking to the apostle or at least least giving some kind of approval of what he's going to say on in his behalf. You know, it's just kind of ridiculous that someone that has been 15 years in that position wouldn't bet that kind of a statement with, with an apostle. And I mean to me just the details about the relationship indicate that the apostle had to be involved in a statement like that.
John Dehlin [02:05:00] Yeah, this is a $250 billion multi mega corporate global entity.
John Dehlin [02:05:10] There's no way that some rando is going rogue and releasing his own personally written unvetted by Curtin McConkey. You know, press release. There's just no way.
John Dehlin [02:05:21] Really quickly Don says, smash that, like button.
John Dehlin [02:05:24] We would love it. We love our audience. We've got almost 3,000 people in our livestream right now. We would love it if everybody would like this episode, would subscribe to the YouTube channel or to Facebook. That will help with the algorithms. And again, thanks for everyone who's offering the super chat donations to fund these episodes. These aren't cheap, These aren't free. And MPGIII says thanks for covering the story. It's hard to follow. It's our pleasure. We love this work.
Hosts Respond to the Church's PR Statement
John Dehlin [02:05:54] All right, so I'm just. I put together. Well, I agree. You know, I hope that Kwaku and Cardin and Bradley aren't hurt that I'm
John Dehlin [02:06:04] going to actually agree with them. I am gonna agree with them. This is one instance where all of us are in agreement.
John Dehlin [02:06:10] The LDS Church has a serious public relations problem. And in this case, there are several major problems. The first is that they released this statement to Vice News. That's weird. Why didn't they release it to LDS Newsroom first? That's a problem. They didn't release any name. There was no name attributed to the statement. That is weird. And it is cowardly. Only after questions started popping up did they leak it to other networks. And you have to think that what they wanted to do, they're thinking, well, we need to respond to the Vice article, but we don't want our rank and file members to know we're condemning Tim Ballard because so many of our rank and file members adore the guy and believe similarly to him. So how do we condemn Tim Ballard to the world but not let any of our members know about it? I know. We'll leak it to Vice News. Over time, they realized that wasn't tenable
John Dehlin [02:07:10] because people were questioning whether the statement
John Dehlin [02:07:12] was even valid and starting to develop conspiracy theories. So then they start sharing with us other news networks and eventually released the name. To this day, it's now September 18th at 5:32pm The Mormon Church still has
John Dehlin [02:07:29] not released a formal statement on LDS
John Dehlin [02:07:33] Newsroom as far as I know. And then of course, LDS Newsroom violated its own policies by publicly slandering one of its most faithful and well known public defenders. And Gerardo, you made a good point that I think other people are asking. We will be showing soon how the church started deleting any mention of Tim Ballard from its websites. Now there's indication that the church. Some people are suggesting the church may be Restoring those deleted articles about Tim Ballard, which I think, Gerardo, you suggested,
John Dehlin [02:08:10] and maybe RFM suggested this as well,
John Dehlin [02:08:13] that maybe that means they're eventually going to throw Doug Anderson under the bus and feed the theory that Doug Anderson was acting rogue instead of taking responsibility. Kind of like the. The John D. Lee Mountain Meadows Massacre scapegoating. Did you want to add anything to that, Gerardo?
Gerardo Sumano [02:08:31] Yeah, I mean, that's. That's what some people believe. I. I don't think so. I think the Church will stay strong on their. I mean, at least not keep going with it, making more statements, but they will disassociate completely from. From Tim Ballard.
John Dehlin [02:08:51] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:08:52] What about Doug Anderson?
Gerardo Sumano [02:08:55] I think Doug Anderson did what he was told to do, to be honest.
John Dehlin [02:08:59] Yeah. And this is a. This is his LinkedIn profile. I. I don't like how the church.
John Dehlin [02:09:04] Church sometimes has its loyal, devout followers and employees take the fall.
John Dehlin [02:09:11] And I like you, I'm worried that
John Dehlin [02:09:13] Doug Anderson was doing what he was told to do and that he's going to take the fall for it and be blamed for acting rogue.
Gerardo Sumano [02:09:23] Yeah, I mean, again, I doubt that would happen. I think a condemnation like this had to be thought out by not just Doug Anderson, but by the top leaders. So. And by that, I mean, mean, probably including the Apostle. So, yeah, I. I mean, that's a possibility, but I doubt it.
John Dehlin [02:09:45] The, you know, Kwaku and Carden and Bradley, they go on to. To call the Mormon Church on them, to clarify, to apologize, to acknowledge that they handled this incorrectly, they botched it, and to own up to it, it. But unfortunately, they should know better than anyone that Apostle Dallin H. Oaks is on the record of saying that the Church does not apologize. And so I hope they're not holding their breath that the Church will take any accountability.
John Dehlin [02:10:19] I do want to just give the Church credit. In their statement, they did acknowledge that Tim Ballard and Russell M. Ballard. M. Russell Ballard had a super close friendship.
John Dehlin [02:10:30] And, and so in that sense, the
John Dehlin [02:10:32] church was honest in part of their press release statement. What's that?
Gerardo Sumano [02:10:39] Do you, do you have the exact quote? Because that's not what I got from the statement. But.
John Dehlin [02:10:44] Well, not, not the grandfather part. I can, I can pull it back
John Dehlin [02:10:49] up again and, and read it to everyone if, if. If you think that's necessary. Here is, here is the statement, and
John Dehlin [02:11:01] it says, President Ballard and Tim Ballard
John Dehlin [02:11:03] established a friendship a number of years ago. That friendship was built on shared interest, blah, blah, blah.
John Dehlin [02:11:09] So, you know, friendship.
Gerardo Sumano [02:11:12] Yeah. To me, that sounds like he didn't know him that. Well, anyway kind of thing kind of statement, to be honest.
John Dehlin [02:11:18] Okay, so for you, for you, they're kind of under. Underselling that a little bit.
Gerardo Sumano [02:11:22] That's what I got I from the statement. You know, when they're saying there's no business together, there's no this. It was only about the children of God and saving the kids.
John Dehlin [02:11:31] Right.
Gerardo Sumano [02:11:32] And I mean, well, let's, and let's,
John Dehlin [02:11:35] let's show some photos of how close they are there. There's Apostle M. Russell Ballard and Tim Ballard, I believe, outside, you know, on Temple Square. I'm not totally sure, but I'm pretty sure that video was recorded outside of Temple Chapel Square. This is a post from Tim Ballard's Facebook page, I believe, where he's showing a photo of his. Of his daughter who, you know, was taken for on an ambulance ride and was put in the icu. And there's a picture of M. Russell Ballard, Apostle, with Tim Ballard's daughter, probably giving her a special priesthood blessing, which is what, you know, Mormon priesthood leaders do. I don't know. Gerardo, did you ever. Were your illnesses or any of your family members illnesses ever healed directly by a Mormon apostle?
Gerardo Sumano [02:12:26] No, no, no.
John Dehlin [02:12:29] Wait, they don't do this for everybody.
Gerardo Sumano [02:12:32] No, no.
John Dehlin [02:12:34] Only for their own family and for
John Dehlin [02:12:36] wealthy elite Mormons, frankly, and special influencers.
John Dehlin [02:12:41] Anyway, that's another example of how close Ballard, Ballard and Ballard were. There's a picture of Tim Ballard and M. Russell Ballard at, you know, church headquarters in what I believe is the administration building with two other dudes. I have no idea who they are, but they certainly look like they're doing business. I wish I knew who those people
John Dehlin [02:13:04] were in the photo.
John Dehlin [02:13:05] If any of you know who the dudes are in that photo with Tim Ballard and M. Russell Ballard, Ballard, I'd like to know. And then here finally is a photo with M. Russell Ballard, Tim Ballard and the great Glenn Beck. And I promise you they're not just hanging out as bros, having a meal together. I can almost guarantee you they're working
John Dehlin [02:13:27] on, if not nonprofit collaborations for profit collaborations.
John Dehlin [02:13:33] Because we know that Tim Ballard and. And Glenn Beck's relationship was a business relationship. It absolutely was a business relationship. But by the way, we're going to show you that Tim Ballard was making at one point well over $600,000 a year. So nonprofit business is still business. You can still make a lot of money. You can still get very wealthy off of a nonprofit. So even if it wasn't for profit, things that they were talking about, even if it was nonprofit stuff. Tim Ballard was still making upwards of over 5 to $600,000 a year, not counting his book sales and his speaker fees, just from his salaries with the nonprofits. And again, that's not. Whatever he was making from his llc, we don't know. But that just shows how. These are some photos that show how connected they were. And the point that I wanted to make that you made reference to this previously, Gerardo, you know, this, this deals, in my view, another blow to the Mormon teaching. What's. What's that, Gerardo?
Gerardo Sumano [02:14:40] Before you do that, okay, I mean, while you do that, I just want to ask the listeners, or we have a lot of people listening. We've read the statement. We showed you what the statement from the church said. I just want to ask from the listeners, from the statement, do you understand that the church that. That. Sorry. That the apostle had a close, really, really close grandfather like relationship with Ballard, as these pictures are demonstrating? Or did you understand from the statement that they were kind of just friends for saving children and that was it like, what was your understanding of this statement? I just want to know, okay. What people think on the.
John Dehlin [02:15:18] So comment. Comment. If you believe the church's statement accurately represented the level of their relationship by calling it a friendship, or do you think they were much more heavily involved as friends, as almost family of choice and as business partners? Post your comments and maybe we'll share
John Dehlin [02:15:40] a comment or two from the listeners.
John Dehlin [02:15:44] And while they're doing that, I'm going to make my point, which is that this, this deal. If, if it's true that Tim Ballard betrayed M. Russell Ballard, that he, if he ends up being guilty of. Of. Of criminal behavior, if he ends up being guilty of affairs or of sexual harassment or whatever the allegations are, if those allegations end up being true, what this ends up doing is dealing another blow to the Mormon teaching, teaching that their prophets, seers and revelators have. What Mormons are taught is the gift of discernment. On the left, you'll see a photo with known forger and murderer Mark Hoffman, with top Mormon apostles like Marion G. Romney, like Boyd K. Packer, like Gordon B. Hinckley, like Spencer W. Kimball, analyzing
John Dehlin [02:16:36] a forged document and paying murderer and forger Mark Hoffman.
John Dehlin [02:16:40] Hoffman money to be able to hide
John Dehlin [02:16:43] documents that the church felt were inconvenient.
John Dehlin [02:16:47] You know, that was one example of where it's pretty clear these leaders don't have the gift of discernment like we're all taught. And then this photo of Glenn Beck,
John Dehlin [02:16:57] Tim Ballard and M. Russell Ballard might deal another blow to that teaching.
John Dehlin [02:17:04] Now, having said that, Gerardo, are there
John Dehlin [02:17:07] any comments you want to highlight of people responding?
John Dehlin [02:17:11] Yeah, I think to the accuracy?
Gerardo Sumano [02:17:13] Yeah, I think overwhelmingly people are saying that the relationship was brushed over. That sounded like Elder Ballard was trying to make it seem like it was a distant relationship. That the church statement is a big I don't know her. Which means they were close, closer, but they were closer than the church is now comfortable with. And yeah, overwhelmingly people are understood from the statement that the relationship was not that close.
John Dehlin [02:17:39] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Really quickly, again, I want to just make this point.
John Dehlin [02:17:45] It's outrageous that, you know, the church gave Mark Hoffman money, who ended up
John Dehlin [02:17:51] being a murderer and a forger.
John Dehlin [02:17:53] The church promoted Tim Ballard to high heaven.
John Dehlin [02:17:56] We're going to show that in just a second.
John Dehlin [02:17:58] And yet they excommunicated a true hero, Sam Young, who is a bishop who
John Dehlin [02:18:03] just simply tried to fight for children. And it's just outrageous.
John Dehlin [02:18:06] So I'm going to say it's a false claim that. Okay, now we're going to address the next. I think probably the biggest lie of
Evidence of Church Ties to Ballard Over the Years
John Dehlin [02:18:15] all in the church's PR statement is
John Dehlin [02:18:19] the claim that the LDS Church has never endorsed or supported Tim Ballard or
John Dehlin [02:18:23] Operation Underground Railroad or any projects associated with them.
John Dehlin [02:18:27] This has got to go down as
John Dehlin [02:18:29] one of the biggest lies ever told by the Mormon Church.
John Dehlin [02:18:32] And let me just show you a few examples. One, if you go to Deseret Book right now. Today. Right today.
Speaker I [02:18:40] Today.
John Dehlin [02:18:41] If you go to Deseret Book and you type in Tim Ballard, you'll see book after book after book with four and a half star reviews, five star reviews, where the Mormon Church has been hawking, selling shilling for Tim Ballard and selling his books and frankly, making so, so much money off of Tim Ballard's books for years. When Tim Ballard gave his little press conference, his extemporaneous press conference, he noted how much money he had made for Deseret Book. So it's completely outrageous for the Mormon Church to claim that they never endorsed or supported Tim Ballard or any projects associated with him or Operation Underground Railroad. That's just egregiously deceitful and outrageous. Am I overstating that, Gerardo?
Gerardo Sumano [02:19:35] I mean, it's almost laughable. You know, you literally just have to go to their bookstore and you'll, you'll find out.
John Dehlin [02:19:43] Yeah, but it's, it's way worse than that. So if you go to, you know, the Deseret News, these, these types of articles just immediately, immediately started popping up. I'll read the Title of one Timothy Ballard or Tim Ballard. The Operation Underground Railroad founder and the author are one in the same. So that's in 2017. That's just one example of the types of articles. But I just did, I just did a 10 second search. I went to Deseret News, which, you know, I don't have to tell most of you, is the official newspaper of Utah. It's owned and operated by the Mormon Church. It's literally owned and operated by the Mormon Church. I typed in Tim Ballard. I got 364 articles published by the Deseret News that mention Tim Ballard. And just so you don't think that these are like multiple references in just a few handful of articles, let me give you screenshots of some of these articles and read you the headlines. Tim Ballard considers run for Senate amid renewed controversy. What's that, Gerardo?
Gerardo Sumano [02:20:48] That's the bad one.
John Dehlin [02:20:50] Okay, well, all right, all right.
John Dehlin [02:20:51] One bad one.
John Dehlin [02:20:52] Thank you. Tim Ballard considers run for Senate. Watch, watch. New ESPN video spotlighting Tim Ballard's Operation Underground Railroad. The next one Movie review Gripping Operation Tucson shows Tim Ballard's real life battle against sex trafficking. The next one. Next one Abby Huntsman exclusive Q and A. Tim Ballard's new book new UVU president. Welcome students. Next article. Tim Ballard I fought sex trafficking at the border. This is why we need a wall with a photo of Donald Trump no less. Next Next article. Operation Underground Railroads. Tim Ballard meets with Ivanka Trump politicians regarding human trafficking. Next article. Timothy Ballard I already read that one. Next article. Tim Ballard talks our partnership with the Pittsburgh Steelers in video on the 700 Club. Next article. Glenn Beck and Tim Ballard team up in Operation Underground Railroad video in Thailand. I wonder who it was that wanted to make sure the Deseret News covered Tim Ballard and Glenn Beck and their exploits. The next one Tim Ballard's new book Slave Stealers. ESPN features are part of a larger plan to tell our story and rescue children. Our next one. Our's Tim Ballard partners with Glenn Beck's the Nazarene Fund to fight trafficking and slavery on a global scale. The next one. Sound of Freedom director Alejandro Monteverde will release Cabrini in 2024. That's just like 12 of the of the 364 articles that Deseret News published about Tim Ballard. I ask you, Gerardo, can you imagine, is there any chance that David Archuleta or Steve Young can you think of any other celebrity that's going to show up with 364 articles in Deseret News and listeners and Viewers in Gerardo, I ask you, how does that jive with the claim that the LDS Church. Church has never endorsed or supported Tim Ballard or any projects associated with him. Gerardo, I'll give you the floor. I'm ranting. This is caffeinated John. It's 6pm and it's caffeinated John. Go ahead.
Speaker G [02:23:08] It's.
Gerardo Sumano [02:23:09] It's again, it's just laughable that they would make a statement like that. You know, it's. You just have to go to Desert News. That's your book. You'll find Tim Ballard all over the place.
John Dehlin [02:23:18] Yeah, yeah.
John Dehlin [02:23:20] And several people. Several.
Gerardo Sumano [02:23:22] Worse. It's about to get worse.
John Dehlin [02:23:24] Oh yeah, it's about to get worse.
John Dehlin [02:23:26] So let me share the next slide, which is like an example of the puff pieces. They do it basically, you know, this is an article that's showing Tim Ballard, I think that's at the table with that same dude who was at his press conference. Does that look like the same guy?
Gerardo Sumano [02:23:42] Could be.
John Dehlin [02:23:43] And it's. It's got photos of Tim Ballard taking people on tours in New England, in Plymouth, Massachusetts. And it even talks about on the end of this article that Ballard is the founder and CEO of Operation Underground Railroad and it's got a link to his organization and it's hawking his book. It says John Howland was a nobody. And it talks about John Howland's story and how it's covered in Tim Ballard's book, the Pilgrim. Pilgrim Hypothesis. Like can anybody argue that this isn't a clear and obvious endorsement? And shouldn't the Mormon Church be held accountable for this blatant, bold faced, egregious, outrageous lie and misrepresentation that they've never supported Tim Ballard ever. Are you kidding me? But it gets worse. President M. Russell Ballard himself was a promoter of. Of Tim Ballard. One example is a speech given just four years ago at BYU Idaho called the Lord's Hand delivered on December 18, 2019. And if you actually look at the speech, it says, this is President M. Russell Ballard talking. I had the opportunity this past summer to travel to Plymouth, Massachusetts with my friend Tim Ballard to learn more about what he had learned regarding Nephi's vision of these early pilgrims and how their history corroborates Nephi's vision. I walked over the sacred ground where the pilgrims had walked to discover the seemingly small and simple miracles that God had worked through them in order to achieve great things, blah, blah, blah. And then he goes on to talk about who. Who, Gerardo? Who are they talking about?
Gerardo Sumano [02:25:29] Dame Ballard.
John Dehlin [02:25:30] No John Howland and if you remember, John Howland was the dude mentioned in the Pilgrim Hypothesis. So this is literally, this is literally Mormon Apostle President M. Russell Ballard shilling for Tim Ballard's books in Ecclesiastical Responsibilities, speaking in his role as a Mormon Apostle at a church owned private religious university. It's ridiculous.
Speaker G [02:26:00] Yeah.
Gerardo Sumano [02:26:02] Ah, it's kind of crazy. Well, and there's more. I mean we found other videos of Russell Ballard. Actually, I, I didn't put them on the presentation, but there's other videos of him giving talks in Boston and other places. Well, where he will mention. He mentions Tim Ballard by name and the work he's doing. Yeah, I mean it's kind of crazy that they would claim that no, no support from the apostle or, or the church towards Tim Ballard has ever happened. But.
John Dehlin [02:26:33] Yeah, yeah, I think, yeah, there are
John Dehlin [02:26:35] a couple other articles, you know, here's another one.
John Dehlin [02:26:37] Saving Up, Saving Children.
John Dehlin [02:26:39] Tim Ballard and Operation Underground river though,
Gerardo Sumano [02:26:42] because these are at the, like on the official church's website.
John Dehlin [02:26:46] Yeah, church official website, Saving Children, Tim Ballard in Operation Underground Railroad, Latter Day Saints channel. And this is just a few, this
John Dehlin [02:26:53] is just a small sampling. And then there's an Ensign article called we had to Seek God. And what's really outrageous about that one is that it recounts the Haiti jump where we now know that Tim Ballard relied on a Mormon psychic in Utah to tell him where this kidnapped child, child might be. And they spent hundreds of thousands, if not millions of donor dollars to go to Haiti to try and rescue a kidnapped child based on the advice of a Mormon psychic.
Gerardo Sumano [02:27:29] And if you watch Nephi.
John Dehlin [02:27:31] What's that?
Gerardo Sumano [02:27:32] Who was communicating with the prophet? Mormon prophet Nephi.
John Dehlin [02:27:36] Yeah. Which is very much like the type of stuff that Lori Valo and Chad Dabel did and Julie Rowe and others. Tim Ballard is like swimming in this water. And if you watch the video, and I've seen the entire video of this Haitian intervention, it ends totally failed. They don't find the kid and basically Tim Ballard endangers the lives of all
John Dehlin [02:28:01] the people that are on this jump with him.
John Dehlin [02:28:03] It caused several of his own team members, as I understand it, to quit
John Dehlin [02:28:07] because they never felt so scared as
John Dehlin [02:28:09] when they went on this Haitian attempt
John Dehlin [02:28:12] to rescue this kidnapped kid.
John Dehlin [02:28:16] But it's just outrageous that he's spending millions of dollars filming this failed intervention all based on some Mormon psychic getting a tip from Nephi of old. It's just outrageous. And that's, that's an article that the Mormon Church's Ensign. That's the story that the Mormon Church Ensign is going to plug as faithful.
Gerardo Sumano [02:28:42] And so one more thing is that I believe the Apostle had set apart Tim Ballard to go and rescue that kid and bless him to find that kid for that specific jump that was not successful and that had the medium communicating with. With Nephi.
John Dehlin [02:28:58] Yeah. Margi just reached out to me and told me to chill out.
John Dehlin [02:29:02] I told her I wouldn't be mean to Tim Ballard. And I feel like I'm upset at the church for lying Margi and listeners. I hope people feel like I'm not being mean to Tim Ballard or even individuals.
John Dehlin [02:29:19] I'm just outraged that the Mormon Church would lie. So outraged. So anyway, Margi, you might be joining late, but I will calm down now. And viewers and listeners, thanks for your support.
John Dehlin [02:29:31] Okay, so the truth is that both
John Dehlin [02:29:34] the Mormon Church and Apostle M. Russell Ballard have massively supported and endorsed both Tim Ballard and Operation Underground Railroad.
John Dehlin [02:29:43] And the other point that just started
John Dehlin [02:29:45] emerging just a day or two ago
John Dehlin [02:29:47] is that over the weekend, as soon
John Dehlin [02:29:49] as the church released this statement and it got out there, the Mormon Church
John Dehlin [02:29:53] started deleting any reference that it could
John Dehlin [02:29:57] find to Tim Ballard on its websites. So these articles started going down the memory hole. So these articles like Saving Children Tim Ballard and Operation Underground Railroad or We had to Seek God, you would go to search them and you would have it say page not found.
John Dehlin [02:30:14] And you know, on the one hand I think that makes sense that they
John Dehlin [02:30:18] would be embarrassed and want to get
John Dehlin [02:30:19] rid of the evidence of their massive support for Tim Ballard. Especially after they just told the world that they had never supported Tim Ballard
John Dehlin [02:30:29] or Operation Underground Railroad.
John Dehlin [02:30:30] So it makes sense that they would try and delete the evidence. But also that's not honest. An honest person would say, hey, you know what? We did support this guy. We were for fooled.
John Dehlin [02:30:41] We're wrong.
John Dehlin [02:30:42] We'll sorry, we're taking these down, but we're letting you all know about it ahead of time so that it doesn't
John Dehlin [02:30:48] look like we're trying to destroy evidence and mislead people and cover up for our lies. And that's kind of what it appears like they did.
John Dehlin [02:30:58] Am I, am I too mean a
Gerardo Sumano [02:31:00] statement there too right? Like leave the article but put a statement there that the church doesn't not longer endorses under operational Underground Railroad because of, you know, whatever reasons because Tim Ballard betrayed the confidence of, of the apostle or something like that. But of course they decide to delete the evidence instead. Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:31:21] Yeah. Okay, so the, the next false claim that, that I have to call out and this is more Tim Ballard's lie.
John Dehlin [02:31:31] But, but I think the press release is insinuating that there were no business dealings between Apostle M. Russell Ballard and Tim Ballard. Let me just replay this clip because it's just so outrageous.
Tim Ballard [02:31:48] Never in my life, never have I used his name to raise money to make some business deal.
Speaker E [02:32:03] What business deal?
John Dehlin [02:32:04] I don't have business. Okay, so, so like that, that I think ties or comes in second for
John Dehlin [02:32:16] the most untrue thing that that has been said. And now what I'd like to do is answer Tim, Tim. Tim Ballard's question. What business? Okay, so I want to refer everybody to a really important website called American Crime Journal. And there's an article here about what's called the whiteboard. Meaning I think, I think Lynn Packer
John Dehlin [02:32:45] was helpful in breaking the story.
John Dehlin [02:32:47] But then American Crime Journal kind of took the story and, and really ran with it. But I'm just going to read what it says.
Gerardo Sumano [02:32:55] And it has also been corroborated by Vice News as well. So.
John Dehlin [02:32:59] Okay.
Gerardo Sumano [02:33:00] Multiple other medias have reported on this whiteboard. Just, just so you know.
John Dehlin [02:33:05] Okay, okay. All right, so here's what it says.
John Dehlin [02:33:07] In 2019, August 2019, Tim Ballard summoned 10 or so of his most trusted operation Underground Railroad Associates to a clandestine meeting at home of our rainmaker, Paul Hutchinson. Portrayed by Eduardo versatile GI in Sound of Freedom, Hutchinson was imperative to our's early success. Hutchinson was a multimillionaire and one of
John Dehlin [02:33:33] Tim Ballard's most loyal lieutenants.
John Dehlin [02:33:35] When he reflect back our's formative years with Ballard, Hutchinson speaks of Tim Ballard with glowing adoration.
John Dehlin [02:33:43] It's almost as if Ballard was more than a man in Hutchinson's eyes, but divine.
John Dehlin [02:33:48] It would be this meeting that Ballard
John Dehlin [02:33:50] became another man entirely to many of those in attendance.
John Dehlin [02:33:54] Also present was our operations team leader, David Lopez. Like Hutchinson, Lopez admired Tim Ballard.
John Dehlin [02:34:00] Though a bit more grounded in reality, that would all erode before their very eyes this August night.
John Dehlin [02:34:06] This meeting was so secret that each individual was required to sign a non disclosure agreement before anything would be discussed or questions answered.
John Dehlin [02:34:15] It was at this very meeting that Ballard laid out a secret plan to
John Dehlin [02:34:19] both monetize and proselytize his child sex
John Dehlin [02:34:22] slave rescue nonprofit Operation Underground Railroad. So again we're answering the question, what business?
John Dehlin [02:34:29] Tim Ballard asked the question. What business?
John Dehlin [02:34:32] We're going to show you the next slide says on the surface, the plan
John Dehlin [02:34:36] was to help grow the Church of
John Dehlin [02:34:38] Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, better known as the LDS or Mormon Church
John Dehlin [02:34:41] Church financially and in membership. Underneath, Ballard's goal was not Only to
John Dehlin [02:34:46] make himself millions of dollars, but to
John Dehlin [02:34:48] raise his profile and popularity among the Mormon elite. Not only would Ballard and his team be funneling donor money into his for profit ventures, but to the LDS Church. They would also start converting employees, volunteers and vulnerable children that our is supposed to aid and rescue rescue into the Mormon Church. Ballard believed that he would quickly gain the favor of church leadership and the Mormon elite, eventually securing a coveted lifetime appointment to the LDS Church's highest governing body, the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. So what is the whiteboard meeting? After each of these individuals signed Ballard's non disclosure agreements, they assembled in the meeting room in Paul Hutchinson's luxurious home. On a whiteboard, also known as a dry erase board, Tim Ballard presented the overall strategy of what he called his master plan. Each member's role and how each of their respective organizations would funnel donor money into his for profit business, Slave Stealers llc. Tim Ballard believed that he could funnel and launder donor money through this nonprofit into his for profit businesses, which he called Sizzle. Both the nonprofits and for Profits would then pay substantial tithes to the LDS Church, despite the fact that money from those funds had already been diverted to church coffers. Now what did the whiteboard show? It showed multiple Tim Ballard controlled for profit and nonprofit entities, several paths for donor money to flow directly from Tim Ballard's nonprofit entities into his main for profit company, Slave Stealers llc. It also showed how our would bring more converts into the Mormon faith, how deeply involved M. Russell Ballard was, and how Operation Underground Railroad's takeover of an orphanage in Haiti is an apparent attempt to monetize adoptions. So here is the whiteboard that we're talking about. You can find it on americancrimejournal.com and it's really hard to read, but I'm going to just describe it just vaguely and then I'm going to show you
John Dehlin [02:37:10] a slide that's way more descriptive.
John Dehlin [02:37:12] But basically at the top of the whiteboard it says timothyballard.com and then under that it says Slave Stealers and it's got some names. We'll show you those names later. And then it says take Sizzle on the rescue. And then it shows a bunch of other nonprofits underneath Operation Underground Railroad, the Nazarene Fund, that was his collaboration with Glenn Beck, there was other nonprofits. And then at the bottom again there's all this money being funneled into TimothyBallard.com and it's got these number amounts. 2.5 million 50 to $100,000 in speaker fees, all sorts, you know, new books, all sorts of number amounts. And then it's got Paul Hutchinson's name on the left hand side. And if we show a graphic illustration of what was on the whiteboard drawing, what you'll see is a certain name there under Slave Stealers LLC for Profit, written by the. The hand of Tim Ballard himself. It says Brian Norton, Tim Ballard and Gerardo Simano. What's the third name there?
John Dehlin [02:38:35] Written by Timothy Ballard under Slave Stealers LLC for profit.
Gerardo Sumano [02:38:41] So the actual whiteboard says Am M R Ballard, and in parentheses says silent.
John Dehlin [02:38:47] It says silent. So what that shows is an overt explicit attempt to hide M. Russell Ballard's involvement in the For Profit LLC portion. Not to mention all the funneling between the nonprofits and then between the nonprofits and the for profits. And then finally, it talks about the Sound of Freedom movie on there.
John Dehlin [02:39:14] It talks about 50 to $100,000 in
John Dehlin [02:39:16] speaking fees, a $2.5 million bank account, and three to five new books coming out. So again, Tim Ballard asks what business? What businesses? And this should be among the most
John Dehlin [02:39:32] egregious, you know, statements made in this entire endeavor. Gerardo, do you want to add anything thing?
Gerardo Sumano [02:39:41] No, I mean, I think a lot of people could claim that most of these are non profits. Yeah, there's association of Tim Ballard with this nonprofits. I hope that we're going to be able to show at least for the non profits, records of tax records are public. So we're gonna be able to show how much money Tim Ballard makes out of those. But for the, for the ones that are LLCs and private companies like the, what's it called, John? The. The sex. The. The slave something company, llc.
John Dehlin [02:40:16] Slave stealers. Right.
Gerardo Sumano [02:40:18] Slave Stealers company. Uh, so that one would not be, would not be public. But then we're going to be able to show some association with, with ballot. So stay tuned for that.
John Dehlin [02:40:28] Yeah.
Business and Financial Dealings Under Scrutiny
John Dehlin [02:40:29] Okay, so just to kind of finish
John Dehlin [02:40:32] off the, the graphics here, the actual.
John Dehlin [02:40:36] It lists a bunch of names of different people involved.
John Dehlin [02:40:39] I'm not going to necessarily name them
John Dehlin [02:40:41] and call them out, but what I
John Dehlin [02:40:44] will add is that the nonprofits that
John Dehlin [02:40:47] it lists that are controlled by Ballard are our Nazarene Fund, Children Need Families,
John Dehlin [02:40:54] Liberty and Light Equity Trust, Mercury One owned by Glenn Beck and the Orange Orphanage in Haiti. It goes on to say that Ballard's
John Dehlin [02:41:02] use of the word sizzle was taken
John Dehlin [02:41:04] to mean that the nonprofits would attract
John Dehlin [02:41:06] donors by way of dynamic humanitarian missions
John Dehlin [02:41:10] such as rescuing child sex slaves. The money would end up in Ballard's own company, TimothyBallard.com and slave stealers, etc. It would make more money with Ballard's
John Dehlin [02:41:22] media engagements, sound of freedom, the movie,
John Dehlin [02:41:25] speaking fees, upcoming books, et cetera. And so that's it.
John Dehlin [02:41:32] And I just have to say, when you run a nonprofit, which I do, it's unethical to be, you know, your salary is public information. And so, you know, my salary is public information. I'm grateful for the salary that I make. But if I wanted to get paid more than I wanted the public to know, and so I set up a bunch of shell nonprofits so that then I could funnel money between the nonprofits so that then I could pay myself on the back end through other nonprofits to kind of obscure my total compensation. That to me seems like fraud. So if they were doing that, that
John Dehlin [02:42:15] would be a big problem.
John Dehlin [02:42:17] I hope they weren't doing that.
John Dehlin [02:42:18] But I think we're gonna show evidence in a second that they may have been doing that really quickly. There's a tiny bit more evidence we
John Dehlin [02:42:25] wanted to show of Ballard's involvement. Do you want to set up this,
John Dehlin [02:42:29] this video clip, Gerardo, what this is?
Gerardo Sumano [02:42:32] Yeah, so we talked about the company Slave Stealers, which is an llc. But then we're going to be able to show an association between the Apostle and Ambrosel Ballard and this company.
John Dehlin [02:42:48] Okay. All right, let's play the video.
Speaker H [02:42:51] In 2018, Ballard formed the Utah for profit entity Slave Stealers LLC. Then in 2020, the Florida company Stowaway Productions was organized to produce a multi season film series based on Tim Ballard's book Slave Stealers. It's about untold stories of America's centuries long war with slavery. There's something curious about Slave Stealers formation. The articles of incorporation show the company's principal office to be at 228 South 200 west in Farmington. That's the office location of Russell Ballard's son in law, Brad Brower. He declined.
John Dehlin [02:43:34] All right, Gerardo, so what did we just hear there? Can you summarize that for us?
Gerardo Sumano [02:43:38] Yeah, so at the end he said he declined comments. So that means, means that he was contacted to comment on this association and he didn't, he didn't comment. But. Oh, just so everyone else too. This clip is from our, the video from our good friend Lynn Packer who has been covering the story of Tim Ballard and our for, for, for a long time now. And yeah, so we're gonna have a link in the comment, in the, in the description for this video so you can watch it in full.
John Dehlin [02:44:08] But, but Basically, it's saying that at
John Dehlin [02:44:10] least one of his nonprofits or for profits was housed in, in M. Russell Ballard's son's property.
John Dehlin [02:44:19] Is that son in law?
Gerardo Sumano [02:44:20] Yep.
John Dehlin [02:44:20] Son in law.
Gerardo Sumano [02:44:21] Yep.
John Dehlin [02:44:22] Yeah. Okay.
John Dehlin [02:44:22] So that's, that's interesting.
John Dehlin [02:44:25] That's, that's, you know, that seems like a silent partner. And I don't think the, the church's press release owned up to their business partnerships. That sounds a lot like a business partnership.
John Dehlin [02:44:36] What do you want to say about this next?
John Dehlin [02:44:38] Clip?
Gerardo Sumano [02:44:38] Clip.
John Dehlin [02:44:41] So this is, is this the one about.
John Dehlin [02:44:43] About nutrients?
Gerardo Sumano [02:44:45] Yep.
John Dehlin [02:44:46] All right, let's go ahead and play it, then we'll explain.
Speaker H [02:44:50] All began when Russell Ballard asked Mark Jensen to come to his office at 47 East South Temple, the church's main administration building, to discuss a calling of sorts. Jensen made a note of it. Ballard asked Jensen to bring well to do LDS donors who were able to make minimum $50,000 donations to Ballard's office to finalize the transactions. The money would be used to enhance LDS Church properties near the Kirtland, Ohio temple to rebuild key landmarks, build a new visitor center and improving infrastructure such as. The landmarks are near the Kirtland Temple owned by the community of Christ Church faithful Mormons believe Jesus Christ appeared there as well as Moses and the prophets Elijah and elias. At its 1836 dedication, many in the congregation had visions, saw angels and spoke in tongues. Russell Ballard would refer to it as a great Pentecostal outpouring. So what happened when Jensen and prospective donors met in Ballard's office? Jensen claims that during the meetings, elder Ballard would suggest that donors also consider investing with his son Craig Ballard and son in law Brad Brower. Subsequent meetings were set up at their offices in Farmington next to a facility where powders and drinks that that is nutritional supplements are formulated for various multi level marketing ventures. As an example, one of several Kirtland donors who Jensen says invested in the Ballard family enterprise was Mormon billionaire Gene Yamagata, handled by Yamagata's cfo, David Sr. Jensen claims Ballard fired him from his calling. After Jensen, at least one of the Kirtland donors expressed concern about the propriety of linking church donations to investments with Ballard's family. But Jensen says after his termination, he was re engaged. But under the direction of two other apostles, Henry Eyring and Jeffrey Holland, Jensen says the fundraising continued. I ask LDS CHURCH meeting okay, I
John Dehlin [02:47:13] think Gerardo, are you waving at me to stop it? Okay, you're muted.
Speaker E [02:47:19] Gerardo.
John Dehlin [02:47:20] Okay. So the one thing that just gives you. So first of all, again, a Shout
John Dehlin [02:47:26] out to Lynn Packer and our. Sorry, Lynn packer and his YouTube channel
John Dehlin [02:47:31] for his amazing journalism that gives you
John Dehlin [02:47:33] a flavor of kind of the business
John Dehlin [02:47:35] deals that Ballard is orchestrating. And to be honest, for decades I
John Dehlin [02:47:40] heard about people make allegations of M. Russell Ballard being involved in shady business deals. So it kind of shows behind the
John Dehlin [02:47:49] scenes how that works, how there's nepotism involved. And then the final thing is, if you remember, they talked about powders and supplements and that sort of thing. And some of you will remember this
John Dehlin [02:48:02] video that Tim Ballard put out right on the heels of his Sound of Freedom movie.
Tim Ballard [02:48:10] Guys, I want to tell you about a new line of supplements that I'm putting out called Freedom Products. You can go to Freedom Store to learn about the 50 plus products that we have. So it's really cool how we created this with a friend of mine, one of the undercover operators that I've worked with for years and years and years. So, as you know, we operate in some very crazy areas. You don't always have access to, to fresh food can be very unhealthy. So for years, this operator has been very kind of scientific and been putting together different formulas of different supplements. Things for energy, things for health, things for gut health, things to boost testosterone, of course, protein. I said, if you make a protein, make sure I want like six or less ingredients. That's how I know it's clean after. After about six or seven years. Finally, this line is ready to go right now, and we're pushing it out. It's called Freedom. I want you to learn more about it.
John Dehlin [02:49:08] I like to actually mix both of
Tim Ballard [02:49:10] these up with the protein powder.
John Dehlin [02:49:14] It's really good. It's all so incredibly clean and healthy,
Tim Ballard [02:49:17] as are all the products. I mean, this stuff has everything you need. So go to Freedom Store, learn more and get your products. And the good news is a portion of the proceeds from all purchases will go to fight human trafficking.
John Dehlin [02:49:31] And of course, it doesn't say how
John Dehlin [02:49:33] much of the proceeds are going to go to human trafficking.
John Dehlin [02:49:35] And the truth is, I don't know,
John Dehlin [02:49:37] Gerardo, whether Ballard's sons were investors and
John Dehlin [02:49:41] if there's a direct tie.
John Dehlin [02:49:44] But you did hear Lynn Packer talk about the mention of powders and supplements. And so I think that's worth investigating, whether or not those powders and supplements are in any way backed financially by M. Russell Ballard's family. Anything else you wanted to add about that, Gerardo?
Speaker I [02:50:02] Nope.
John Dehlin [02:50:03] Okay.
John Dehlin [02:50:04] So this claim just to kind of
John Dehlin [02:50:07] like this claim that M. Russell Ballard never authorized Tim Ballard to use his name.
John Dehlin [02:50:12] I mean the bigger deal, the bigger news story is that Tim Ballard, that M. Russell Ballard use Tim Ballard's name all the time. And clearly if Tim Ballard and M. Russell Ballard were meeting donors and wealthy people all the time behind the scenes and clearly if Deseret News and Ballard himself were mentioning Tim Ballard's name and nonprofits and books constantly over a five to ten year period period, clearly Ballard was, was cool with, with M. Russell Ballard was cool with Tim Ballard using his name. So, so that's just.
John Dehlin [02:50:54] I think we've made that point.
John Dehlin [02:50:56] A final slide from this website talks about Ballard's millions. It says Tim Ballard's nonprofit Operation Underground Railroad has millions of dollars in liquidity. Legitimate nonprofit entities typically have two to
John Dehlin [02:51:09] to three years of annual expenses in reserve.
John Dehlin [02:51:11] Our on average had 10 to 20
John Dehlin [02:51:13] years of operating expenses in reserve.
John Dehlin [02:51:16] It's just one of many reasons why Charity Watch downgraded their rating to a question mark and issued multiple cautions about the nonprofit. In reality, Ballard could not simply write checks to himself without risking his tax exempt status. According to our Form 990 in 2018, Ballard's salary at our was over 300,000. In 2021 it was over 500,000. What was Ballard's solution? According to two our executives in attendance surround our with other nonprofits and for profits, creating a complex labyrinth of entities where the money would eventually flow into his personal bank account. Ballard pointed out an added bonus. He told those in attendance at the clandestine event, that same sizzle that generates profits could bring masses of people into the Mormon Church. It was his capitalism begets church converts plan. Ballard was perpetuating that this was some divine plan, as if God wanted millions of dollars of donor money to flow through a labyrinth of entities directly into Ballard's pockets. And I just wonder whether all those
John Dehlin [02:52:27] people who donated to Operation Underground Railroad
John Dehlin [02:52:30] to rescue and save children were planning on so much of that money being funneled into Tim Ballard's unrelated nonprofits and
John Dehlin [02:52:41] even his for profits. And eventually so much of that money, you know, ending up in Tim Ballard's pocket.
John Dehlin [02:52:47] And I will say I have six
John Dehlin [02:52:49] figure compensation at the Open Stories Foundation.
John Dehlin [02:52:52] I am transparent about that. You can go read my 990. What I don't do is find ways to funnel money to me in other ways. I try to watch that. I try and be ethical about that and I try and make sure that my board sets my compensation in an ethical way. And you know, I'm sure I'm not perfect, but I've tried.
John Dehlin [02:53:18] And so I'll just own. If I've made mistakes, I want to own them because I'm not perfect.
John Dehlin [02:53:25] Gerardo, you were kind enough to put together the financial statements from our in past years. Do you want to quickly tell us
John Dehlin [02:53:34] kind of the highlights from each of these slides? Yeah.
Gerardo Sumano [02:53:38] So for 2018, we can see that the net assets were $16 million. And then we have Tim Ballard making $343,000 in salary just of operation underground railroad code. And then we can just go pretty quickly on this. Unless you have something to point out, John.
John Dehlin [02:53:59] Nope.
Gerardo Sumano [02:54:00] Okay, perfect. So the next year is this 20, 2019. Okay. Yeah. So we have in revenue $22 million and net assets and $30 million. I mean, at this point, they're only having expenses of $9 million, but a net income of 12 million. And this year, Tim Ballard made, for some reason, his salary went from three hundred to a hundred thousand dollars that year.
John Dehlin [02:54:28] That's weird. Yeah.
Gerardo Sumano [02:54:30] Then the next year on 2020, we. We have him going, uh, into the zero dollars. So didn't he make any money? I think a way to explain it. I know that he was not, uh, He. He left our for a time. So it could be that he.
Tim Ballard [02:54:48] He.
Gerardo Sumano [02:54:48] It was that previous year where he left early, you know, and he was out of. Out of operational ground railroad for. For a year and a half or a little bit over a year. And that's why the. I mean, the. The compensation shows for zero, but it still shows him as a founder.
John Dehlin [02:55:03] Right.
Gerardo Sumano [02:55:04] And that's for the year 2020. And then the 2020 report. 2021 report, we're at net assets of $80 million.
Speaker E [02:55:16] And.
Gerardo Sumano [02:55:16] And then Tim Ballard's compensation goes up again to $335,000. And then last is the last. Sorry, that's 2021. Do you have one?
John Dehlin [02:55:32] Yeah. This is the big one. This is the big one where you
John Dehlin [02:55:35] have you brought evidence of him making an additional $100,000 through what, a different nonprofit, the Nazarene Fund.
John Dehlin [02:55:43] So he's now making 335 through our. And then on the side, funneling money
John Dehlin [02:55:51] into a different fund, possibly to get extra income. So 335 plus 100 is 435 just in 2021 alone.
Gerardo Sumano [02:56:03] Right, right.
John Dehlin [02:56:04] And then we go to 2022.
Speaker E [02:56:06] Yeah.
Gerardo Sumano [02:56:06] And inexplicably, his. His salary in operation on the ground railroad goes up by almost double to $546,000 plus $20,000 of a bonus.
John Dehlin [02:56:18] So. Yeah.
Gerardo Sumano [02:56:20] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:56:20] And we don't know. And we don't know how Much he
John Dehlin [02:56:24] made from his LLCs, from his, you know, private, from his other Nonprofits, from his LLCs and any other stuff that, that, that isn't shown.
Gerardo Sumano [02:56:34] So make a lot of money with his books. Right. Like on that statement he made in Boston, he says he, he's, his books have made a lot of money.
John Dehlin [02:56:45] Yeah, right. Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:56:47] So, and, and I'll just say one, one last time. It's true that I make, I make a six figure salary. What's also true is that I was
John Dehlin [02:56:58] making a six figure salary in 2000, 2004 when I worked for Microsoft.
John Dehlin [02:57:02] And so I pursued a PhD, two master's degrees.
John Dehlin [02:57:07] I've been working on Mormon stories for
John Dehlin [02:57:09] 18 years and we've had multiple independent entities do salary analysis to make sure that my education levels, my experience, my performance and, and other, you know, other nonprofit CEOs and talents doing comparable things to make sure that my compensation is, you know, meets market value. Maybe Tim is worth five or six hundred thousand. If he is, there's no problem. I'm not necessarily attacking Tim Ballard for the size of his salary. I really do think that nonprofit executives and employees should be paid generously, should be paid handsomely because they do hard work, they do important work and they should be rewarded for their efforts. So my point is not to shame Tim Ballard for his compensation, but it is to say, you know, if he was creating nonprofits to funnel money through and to provide himself additional income, that isn't transparent, that's a problem. And so, you know, just do it ethically. And I'm not even alleging that he did anything unethical. But, but there's concern and I think that might be part of why there were federal criminal investigations, but we'll have to see. I did, I did have planned to touch briefly on the sexual allegations against Tim Ballard. I'm going to pass on that tonight other than to say tomorrow, I believe now it's at, I believe it's at 2:00 Eastern Time,
Upcoming Vice Interview and Final Thoughts
John Dehlin [02:59:03] noon Utah time. I'm going to have Anna Merlin and Tim Marchman from Vice on Mormon stories.
John Dehlin [02:59:11] Believe it or not, we're not just going to talk about the sexual allegations
John Dehlin [02:59:17] story that broke today. There's a new breaking story that they say is even more earth shattering than the ones that have been shared so far. That's going to break tomorrow.
John Dehlin [02:59:31] So if you think you've heard intense
John Dehlin [02:59:35] things, we're going to cover the sexual allegations and even a more, more shocking
John Dehlin [02:59:39] reveal tomorrow on Mormon Stories. The final thing that I'll say is
John Dehlin [02:59:46] I saw a tweet that Anna Merlin, the journalist wrote. And she wrote, I truly cannot believe
John Dehlin [02:59:53] I'm tweeting this, but apparently a rumor in the LDS community is that I am a Wiccan priestess and thus not
John Dehlin [02:59:59] trustworthy to speak to.
John Dehlin [03:00:01] I am Jewish.
John Dehlin [03:00:02] I have always been Jewish.
John Dehlin [03:00:03] Jewish and will be for the rest
John Dehlin [03:00:05] of my life and whatever comes after.
John Dehlin [03:00:07] And also, what? I just have tattoos. My mom hates them.
John Dehlin [03:00:10] Trust me on this.
John Dehlin [03:00:12] So, I mean, she's being light hearted,
John Dehlin [03:00:14] she's being a good spirit, a good sport.
John Dehlin [03:00:16] But clearly the attack dogs are out and it's just kind of sad to
John Dehlin [03:00:21] see how vicious and dismissive faithful supporters of the Mormon Church are against Anna and Tim and vice versa.
John Dehlin [03:00:30] News the final things that I'm going to add are just some final questions that I have that I, that I
John Dehlin [03:00:39] just want to read off as I end today's episode. And Gerardo will get you in for any final comments you have.
John Dehlin [03:00:45] But I want to know why the
John Dehlin [03:00:48] federal investigation into Tim Ballard was shut down.
John Dehlin [03:00:51] Why was the FBI involved? Why was it a national investigation? And then why was it just mysteriously shut down? Or is it, is it, you know, as Fox 13 news seem to infer, is that still an ongoing investigation?
John Dehlin [03:01:09] Has a grand jury been convened?
John Dehlin [03:01:11] And is one of the reasons why
John Dehlin [03:01:15] the Mormon Church and Mormon politicians appear
John Dehlin [03:01:17] to be running from COVID from Tim Ballard because indict an indictment or multiple
John Dehlin [03:01:24] indictments are soon to be handed down. That's one question I have.
John Dehlin [03:01:28] A second question I have is, was Sean Reyes involved in scuttling that investigation? I asked that because just recently I noticed a tweet from Sean Reyes where he said, acquittal on all counts. Texas Senate makes the right decision and America gets back a battle shot in its fight for liberty, prosperity and safety. Congratulations to our brother and colleague Ken Paxton and his family. As I understand it, Ken Paxton is the Attorney General. He's the Sean Reyes of Texas. And recently he was under investigation by his own party for allegations of stopping a federal investigation as Attorney General of the state of Texas. And if Ken Paxton is stopping a federal investigation, possibly unethically, is that a possible reason why Sean Reyes is so congratulatory of Ken Paxton of being exonerated? I'm curious to know if Sean Reyes had any involvement in stopping the federal investigation of Tim Ballard. If he did did that would be a gross and egregious conflict of interest knowing that he, you know, had so many joint involved so much joint involvement with Tim Ballard. Now that's just, you know, that's just questions. I have no evidence. I'm not even making allegations. But I would love to know the answer to that. If anybody ends up knowing a couple other questions, I I'm just going to leave out there. Why weren't Tim Ballard's bishop and stake president notified that he was being thrown under the bus by the church leadership? Has Tim Ballard been excommunicated? There's a lot of speculation as to whether he was excommunicated without his involvement or consent. I think Glenn Beck's usage of the term excommunication has fueled some of that speculation, especially as far as I know, I know of no indication that he has yet been excommunicated. But I'm curious about that. Will the Mormon Church sort of own up and release this official statement on LDS newsroom, or will they allow speculation to fester in sort of neo fundamentalist, conservative, orthodox Mormon spheres, allow them to continue believing, believing that a rogue PR
John Dehlin [03:04:01] person issued that statement instead of it
John Dehlin [03:04:04] being issued by M. Russell Ballard and
John Dehlin [03:04:07] the correlation department and Curt McConkie themselves?
John Dehlin [03:04:11] I think ethically the Mormon Church need to step up and release that statement through LDS newsroom and also issue apologies or clarifications to help people know what's really going on and to apologize if necessary. I'm curious to know if Sean Reyes is going to turn on Tim Ballard. They've been allies up until this point, close buddies, partners. Will Sean Reyes turn on Tim Ballard? Will Tim Ballard back down? Or will he double down and even possibly lead an opposition movement to the Mormon Church? That probably sounds crazy, but it is not outside the realm of possibility that, just like the Capitol was stormed in rebellion. I think it's within the realm of possibility that Tim Ballard and his followers could metaphorically, symbolically lead a spiritual and a religious rebellion against the orthodox Church
John Dehlin [03:05:14] of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
John Dehlin [03:05:16] I'm curious to know if Tim Ballard is still going to announce that he's running for Senate, if he's going to obey Jesus and announce, as it's been alleged, his US Senate candidacy on October 10th. Or will he? Or did Jesus change his mind? Or will Tim Ballard disobey Jesus? I'm curious about that. I'm curious to know what other allegations and charges are in the works. And I'm curious to know, as we've already discussed, whether the church's head spokesperson, Doug Anderson, will eventually be thrown under the bus. Those are questions I have. Gerardo Sumano, you've done a great job in helping co produce today's episode. Unmute yourself and tell us if you
John Dehlin [03:05:58] have any final words.
Gerardo Sumano [03:06:01] Well, I'm excited about what's coming up tomorrow. I think, I think people should consider these allegations seriously and, and just follow the evidence, you know, and I think, I hope that the church, I mean, there's a question, you know, of whether church members are gonna side either with the church or Tim Ballard, you know, because Tim Ballard is gonna not, is not gonna back down from his position that his relationship with the apostle was close and, and very, very close. So who are members gonna side? Are they gonna side with the church? Who's denying that? Or are they gonna side with Tim Ballard? And that, that, that would be interesting. And we'll see it in the days to come, probably months. And it. Will it create a schism in the church? We, we don't know.
John Dehlin [03:06:56] But yeah, yeah.
John Dehlin [03:07:00] The last point that I want to make, and I'm going to make this
John Dehlin [03:07:02] for journalists, Gerardo, we're stepping on each other with the screens.
John Dehlin [03:07:07] It's okay. I want to make this point for
John Dehlin [03:07:10] never Mormons and for journalists who just really want to understand the Mormon angle.
John Dehlin [03:07:14] In some sense, this entire Tim Ballard
John Dehlin [03:07:18] issue represents a sort of chickens coming
John Dehlin [03:07:22] home to roost sort of situation. The Mormon Church has been hypervigilant on
John Dehlin [03:07:28] its progressive or liberal wing.
John Dehlin [03:07:31] Excommunicating legally same sex married couples. Excommunicating people who support same sex marriage like me. Excommunicating people who ask the church to be honest in its history or who criticize church leadership for racism or sexism or homophobia. Excommunicating its feminists who advocate for female ordination. Excommunicating Sam Young for his advocacy for LDS children and to fight child sex abuse. Excommunicating Natasha Helfer for advocating for ethical mental health treatment in the Mormon Church. The Church has been hypervigilant at excommunicating its critics on the left and its more progressive and liberal members. And that's its right. What it hasn't been vigilant about is excommunicating its neo fundamentalist and neo conservative members. It did excommunicate Denver Snuffer and Julie Rowe and a few smattering of the Snufferites. But there's a whole swath of, of tens or hundreds of thousands of neoconservative orthodox Mormons that have super fringe beliefs and they've been allowed to fester, to obsess about the second Coming, to obsess about preparism, to teach each other that you can use prayer and psychics to Speak with Moroni to speak with Nephi, to speak speak with Jesus. This whole multiple mortal probations and reincarnations and knowing each other in past lives, this whole stuff that Lori Vallow and Chad Dabell got into along with Julie Rowe and all those preppers, those beliefs have not been condemned. They have not been tamped down. The prepper movement has not been condemned by the Mormon Church along with a lot of these teachings. And so Tim Ballard with his millennialism with his claiming to speak to Jesus, just like Denver Snuffer with his using psychics to speak to Nephi to tell them where to rescue a kidnapped kid in Haiti. You know, the Mormon Church is not tamping down on these heretical, dangerous sort of apocalyptic teachings. And the chickens are coming home to roost. Whether it's with Jody Hildebrandt, who by the way, Tim Ballard in our supported Jody Hildebrandt, you know, the reckless and unethical and torturous therapist that's associated with the eight passengers like Jody Hildebrandt and connections ran in the very same crowds as Lori Valo, Chad Dabella and Tim Ballard and his folks at Operation Underground Railroad. It's all the same group of people. And so I'm just going to end by saying the Mormon Church is accountable and responsible for failing to crack down on and hold accountable the neo fundamentalist, conservative prepper right wing of its membership, unlike the level of vigilance of and severity that it's enacted on its progressive wing. And it needs to change because people are dying. People are literally dying. Families are being wrecked and frankly, church, Mormon Church, your PR has become a disaster in the past several weeks and months with all of these neo fundamentalist Mormons emerging as important powered embarrassments to
John Dehlin [03:11:20] the church's public relations image.
John Dehlin [03:11:23] So Mormon Church, for your own sake, tamp down on neo fundamentalism, prepperism, millennialism and all of this dangerous, weird psychic spirituality that is plaguing you and frankly tearing your church apart heart. It'll be hard, It'll be difficult. I understand why you don't want to do it, but if you don't, you.
John Dehlin [03:11:52] You fail to do so at your own peril.
Gerardo Sumano [03:11:55] Sorry, John, I have one more thing to say. Please, I totally agree with you. Do you have anything else?
John Dehlin [03:12:00] No, that's it. Go for it.
Gerardo Sumano [03:12:02] I just had. I just had this realization. You know, I think one of a lot of people like Carden, Ellis and Kwaku and even you, you have made have posed the question of why were the bishop and the sick prison not informed about this statement or, you know, this problematic behavior by Tim, Tim Ballard. I mean, what are the odds that Tim Ballard has received the second anointing? And I, I would say pretty high, especially being that close to the apostle, as we've shown. And I'll say my, my dad, dad who's a bishop in Mexico, he, he has been in state presidents for, for, for a long time. For, for a very, very long time. And now he's a bishop. But anyway, he told me this story of one time. There was this allegation made against, uh, this member, a prominent member who was in his word and sexual allegations. And they needed to be addressed, uh, obviously, uh, through the priesthood. And he was told by, I believe a 70 that he was not to interview or do anything with that member. And the hint was that that member had received the second anointing and he was not to be disciplined or even interview about it. So I mean, I just wanted to maybe bring that up because I just thought about that. That same baller has probably received the second anointing. If you don't know what, what that is, that's like a super secret ceremony that most Mormons, most members of the church don't even know about. Where prominent Mormon members, elite members of the church are, are invited to, to a specific temple where there's a ceremony that happens where an apostle basically tells them that they are gonna become gods in the next life and that no matter what sin they, they, they do, they're still going to be saved in the afterlife except for murdering or spilling innocent blood or something like that. But, but yeah, just wanted to bring that up.
John Dehlin [03:14:16] Yeah. So if you want to learn more
John Dehlin [03:14:18] about the second anointing, go to Mormon Stories podcast. The Tom Phillips episode or series of episodes. It's definitely one of the most important episodes I've ever released. And it's a disturbing thing. Of course we're speculating as to whether or not Tim Ballard received the second anointing. And you know, a reaction to that
John Dehlin [03:14:37] would be how in the world could
John Dehlin [03:14:39] they be punishing him so publicly if he's received a second anointing. But, you know, we're speculating, but it's at least a worthy question.
John Dehlin [03:14:46] And her Barbardo.
John Dehlin [03:14:48] It's a great excuse to teach people about a really important concept.
John Dehlin [03:14:53] Really quickly, please. We are a nonprofit.
John Dehlin [03:14:57] We do rely on your donations. We are transparent in our finances.
John Dehlin [03:15:01] We have no Shady additional 501C3s that
John Dehlin [03:15:04] we channel money to.
John Dehlin [03:15:07] We report my salary ethically. I believe, I believe my salary is
John Dehlin [03:15:12] ethically pegged by an independent compensation board.
John Dehlin [03:15:18] And frankly, when I ask for donations, it's not for me.
John Dehlin [03:15:22] The residual donations right now more than
John Dehlin [03:15:25] cover my annual salary and I don't
John Dehlin [03:15:27] even think I've taken a raise in many years other than just a performance bonus that I get each year that
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John Dehlin [03:16:54] I wish I had time to read read all of the the chats and comments.
John Dehlin [03:16:58] Thanks to Maven for helping moderate the chats today.
John Dehlin [03:17:01] Thanks to Julia for helping with the time codes and show notes. Brooklyn for the editing. Thanks to you Gerardo.
John Dehlin [03:17:08] And the final thing is tomorrow please do check out
John Dehlin [03:17:14] the episode that we
John Dehlin [03:17:16] have planned we will have back on
John Dehlin [03:17:19] Mormon Stories, Tim Marchmont and Anna Merlin of Vice. They're going to be coming on to
John Dehlin [03:17:28] talk about not just the new allegations
John Dehlin [03:17:31] of sexual harassment but the article that
John Dehlin [03:17:34] they published and some breaking news that I'm not going to be releasing here
John Dehlin [03:17:39] but they say is an earth shattering
John Dehlin [03:17:42] article yet to come about Tim Ballard
John Dehlin [03:17:44] and our I can't imagine what else it is.
John Dehlin [03:17:47] Anyway, anyway, love you guys. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. Thanks for all your support and we'll
John Dehlin [03:17:54] see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care everybody.
Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.
2 Responses
Tim Ballard. sounds very similar to the egotistical narcissistic Donald Trump. I don’t feel sorry. for Ballard.
Tell me why the Church will come out against someone who embarrases one of their leading lights, but will not publicaly address the moral issue of the day, to whit the gun violence that is killing innocent people daily?