Welcome and Guest Introduction

Margi Dehlin [00:00:02] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Thrive Stories. I am your host, Margi Delin, and I am joined today by my co hosts, John Dehlin, my life partner in love. Hi, John.

John Dehlin [00:00:14] It is Margi. It is so fun to have you in the. In the driver's seat. It's fun. Yeah. How does it feel?

Margi Dehlin [00:00:21] New. It feels new.

Dave Biesinger [00:00:22] Does it feel like the hot.

John Dehlin [00:00:23] Does it feel like the hot seat? Or does it feel like you have power and like the throne?

Margi Dehlin [00:00:28] The throne. Interesting choice of words. Also, we want to welcome the wise and witty Carah over there. Hello, Carah, bro. Thanks, Mark.

Carah Burrell [00:00:39] Margi is. She's one of my favorites. I've become a good friend now. The Lynn family. I think that you all are bright, shining stars and Margi is actually the brightest one in the Delin galaxy. So I love anytime you come to the studio.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:53] Thank God.

Carah Burrell [00:00:53] Like, surprised, are we?

John Dehlin [00:00:55] No, it's true. It's true. It's true.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:58] Very kind. Thank you for that.

Carah Burrell [00:00:59] Anyway, I'm excited for this episode.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:01] So before we dive in, let me just say a little bit about Thrive Stories because it's new. So the idea of Thrive Stories is. It's a bit different than a long form interview. It's more of a one to two hour interview. And the idea is to focus on a particular area of thought thriving after transitioning. So some sample areas could be finding spirituality, it could be finding community, it could be improving mental health, it could be parenting, it could be healthy marriage, it could be navigating grief and loss. We have actually a full list of all the areas on the nomination form that's found in the link below this podcast. Today we'll provide that link in the. You can nominate someone you know. We do ask that you try to get consent before you do that and you can also nominate yourself. So that's the idea behind Thrive Stories. Did I leave anything out?

John Dehlin [00:01:59] No, just that maybe the way they differ from our long form faith transition stories is we spend less time on the life as a Mormon, less time on the deconstruction, and just more. More time on a particular element or two of the transition. And then following that from. From pre faith crisis all the way through to post. And the heavy focus is on the healing and growth after the faith crisis. And we try to keep it under two hours if we can. We'll see if we can do that today.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:30] Perfect.

John Dehlin [00:02:31] See if Dave. Dave helps us out with that.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:34] No pressure. I'll try to keep it short, so we would love to. I'm so excited for our guest today. We Have Dave Biesinger here. Hi, Dave.

Dave Biesinger [00:02:43] Hi, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:43] Thank you for being here.

Dave Biesinger [00:02:44] So good. Thank you for, thank you for letting me like come to this space. It really is like such an honor.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:51] Oh, we are thrilled. We're going to have John just say a piece or two and a little intro to Dave and how we kind of know Dave and a bit about Dave.

John Dehlin [00:02:59] Yeah, yeah. Well, I've known Dave for a few years now. I would, I would. You know, I talk a lot about our pods, how after a faith crisis, we need to find friends and community to help us rebuild our life. Because one of the most certain things that happens in most people who experience a faith crisis, a Mormon faith crisis, is they lose a majority of their friends, sometimes a lot of family, and they definitely lose their entire community almost all the time. And so Margi and I, so what we try and encourage people to do is build up their own set of, you know, three or four to 10 either couples or friends that you can kind of do life with that you can kind of have a community with.

John Dehlin [00:03:44] And so we have a couple pods and Dave Biesinger is in one of our two pods. So we hang out with Dave regularly. We try to, we do fun things. But Dave's been a dear friend for many years.

John Dehlin [00:03:57] Dave used to work for the LDS church. I don't know if he's going to be talking about that today, but he had a really cool and interesting role at the church before he ended up leaving the church's employ.

John Dehlin [00:04:10] But that's not in any way the coolest part about Dave. Dave works with my dear friend Christian Moore in the Y Tri organization. He is a videographer, but he's literally one of the smartest, wisest and most good hearted humans I know. And so when Margi and I were thinking about how to launch the Thrive Stories project, the name Dave Biesinger just jumped right out to the top of the list for us.

John Dehlin [00:04:40] And so, yeah, Dave's a dear friend. And Dave, we want to also give you a chance to kind of introduce yourself just a tiny bit before we dive into your story. So what would you want to add and say just as an introduction to you before we dive in?

Dave Biesinger [00:04:54] Yeah, I grew up in Santa Barbara, California, Utah. Transplant. I think you're going to learn a whole lot more about me in the interview. And so I wouldn't say much more than that. Like any, anything that we would say, it'll probably come out okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:05:11] Brilliant.

Carah Burrell [00:05:11] Beautiful.

Dave's Early Search for Meaning and Purpose

Margi Dehlin [00:05:12] Well, let's just, let's begin, shall we? Let's begin okay, so what area did you choose for today?

Dave Biesinger [00:05:20] So I chose finding meaning and purpose.

Carah Burrell [00:05:23] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:05:24] And with finding meaning and purpose, if you were to kind of look back pre transition, what did that look like before? So.

Dave Biesinger [00:05:33] So when I grew up, I've done the math before, and from the time that I was born to the time that I got home from my mission, I moved 42 times. So I moved a lot. And as a result of that, you know, I think. I think there were good things about that. Like, I became very adaptable to new circumstances. I was really good at meeting new friends. But I also had. I had some pretty serious childhood trauma that I was dealing with. And so I had. I had a hard time attach securely and I would make new friends, but I had a hard time holding onto them.

Dave Biesinger [00:06:11] And if I felt like people were getting too close, I would actually push them away or I would run away. And so I kind of had this pattern, you know. But my childhood was also, like, really beautiful. You know, I was pretty plucky. I was pretty resilient.

Dave Biesinger [00:06:26] My parents were gone a lot. They fought a lot. They were in the church, but they weren't, like, super active. So I really am kind of a convert to the church in many ways. But, like, when. When my. When I didn't have a relationship with my mom as a kid because she was getting a PhD and she was directing theater projects, I decided to become an actor so I could have a relationship with her. And because of that, I, you know, I was able to really have a beautiful relationship with my mom and meet adults, and that kind of expanded my horizons. So finding meaning and purpose as a kid was like, I always just wanted, like, that feeling of home, and I captured, like, little moments and glimpses of it. I don't want to ramble too much, because I can ramble. So should I stop there or should I just keep going?

Margi Dehlin [00:07:21] Yeah, well, like, I. Tell me a little bit more about, in connecting to meaning and purpose, like, where you felt that as a kid or even a young adult.

Dave Biesinger [00:07:30] So. So I'll tell. I'll tell one story that, like, that really encapsulates that.

John Dehlin [00:07:35] So.

Dave Biesinger [00:07:35] So as an actor, I did outdoor dramas and I did horse stunts, so we did, like, fly mounts and stuff like that. And there was one night when we. We snuck onto the back lot where all the horses were, like, running wild, and we actually ended up. Me and my buddy Taylor, we ended up riding bareback. And there was no. There was no bridle. There was no saddle. We were. And it was in it Was like these fields of fireflies and we were just riding these wild animals through the woods. Like, that was a moment when I felt so alive, like, so connected to this animal and to like nature and to beauty.

Dave Biesinger [00:08:13] And so moments of meaning would show up for me in just moments of beauty with nature or with people. But like, deep inside my heart, there was this wound that I needed to heal from. And until I fully processed and healed that wound, I would continually search for meaning and purpose. So, I mean, I was a weird kid. I would sit around in cafes reading Carl Jung and writing poetry and thinking about the meaning of life, thinking that somehow I could solve it with my mind. And in the back of my head I always wondered if the church would help me solve that problem. And I always kind of believed in the church.

Dave Biesinger [00:08:49] But I mean, I was smoking cigarettes. Like, you know, I had addictions. Like, I was not doing what the church taught. And so I also had this like big bundle of shame that kept me from wanting to reach out to the church to maybe answer some of those questions about what does life mean? And so I think I was existing for a long time during that period of my life in a bit of an existential crisis.

Margi Dehlin [00:09:12] Yes, I'm feeling it, I'm feeling it. So when you're talking about, you know, sitting in a cafe reading, Carly, what age is that?

Dave Biesinger [00:09:20] That's like 15, 16.

Margi Dehlin [00:09:22] Yeah, got it. So kind of a seeker.

Dave Biesinger [00:09:26] I was, I was definitely, I'm a very curious person. And as we'll get to later, that's also what caused me to like lose my faith in the church.

Margi Dehlin [00:09:35] Got it. Was the seeking part of you.

Dave Biesinger [00:09:37] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:09:39] And when you're talking about kind of smoking and doing things that are making you feel some sense of shame, what age is that for you?

Dave Biesinger [00:09:47] I started smoking cigarettes at 15 years old.

Margi Dehlin [00:09:49] Okay. So similar time frame.

Dave Biesinger [00:09:51] Yep, yep. And you know, in retrospect, we know that nicotine can, can reduce people's sadness. You know, people reach for a cigarette when they're feeling sad. And I think I was just self medicating as a kid.

Margi Dehlin [00:10:02] Yeah, absolutely coping, right?

Dave Biesinger [00:10:04] Yep.

Margi Dehlin [00:10:05] Yeah, that makes sense. So if you had to kind of say how, if we're going to talk about religious orthodoxy, was there a time for that? When was it? And how was it not serving you during this time?

Dave Biesinger [00:10:22] Yes. So.

John Dehlin [00:10:23] Or serving you.

Margi Dehlin [00:10:23] Or serving you.

John Dehlin [00:10:24] Or serving you.

Dave Biesinger [00:10:25] Yeah, that's exactly, that's, that is exactly my journey. Because like, so, so when I was back there doing those horse stunts, my grandfather who I. It was like at that Time. He was like kind of the closest thing to a dad that I had. I didn't really have a great relationship with my father at that time. And he passed away really suddenly from a lung disease. And so I made. I made kind of the trek back to Utah. We buried my grandfather. It was really a pretty devastating time for me. Like, it was really hard to lose my grandpa. Like, I have a painting in my bedroom that he painted, that's like a watercolor painting.

Dave Biesinger [00:10:59] And I have pots all over my home that he threw. And he was a really important kind of mentor figure for me, even though I didn't spend that much time with him. And after he passed away, I really started thinking about, like, what is, like what is the meaning of life? And that's when I ended up. After burying my grandpa, I made a second trek across the country. I drove in my little Nissan Sentra and I stayed at campgrounds. I mean, I pulled into town as this actor with hair down on my shoulders, wearing no shirt, showing up at my parents house unannounced. They weren't even home.

Dave Biesinger [00:11:31] And so we had to call the bishop next door, Bishop Ayew, who ended up being like the bishop who saw me onto my mission. And so he came over, he brought a ladder, we snuck in the window. I took a bath in the hot tub. Like I was crazy. I was a crazy kid. And I went to church that next week. And when I went to church, I met who was going to become my wife, Amy. And we just had this moment. Like she turned around and she connected eyes with me and I looked at her and she was like glowing. And it was my first time back at church.

Dave Biesinger [00:12:04] Seven months after that, I was serving a mission for the LES church. So I went from a guy with hair down to his shoulders who was like going to Grateful Dead concerts and just being crazy, to like, being on a Mormon mission. And I'll tell you how orthodoxy served me. It gave me structure, it gave me like discipline, right? And so I craved that. Like, as somebody who moved 42 times from the time I was born to the time I got home from my mission, like, I wanted a feeling of home. Like, I just wanted like a peaceful, solid existence, a place where I could call home, you know, I wanted the good life, right?

Dave Biesinger [00:12:39] That's what I wanted. And when I got converted to the church, what I saw was a path to the good life. I saw that I could have like this structure and this discipline and these sets of rules that would like, tame my wild spirit, you know, and. And it worked. It worked for a while.

Margi Dehlin [00:12:59] Wow. Wow. Okay. And then. So it worked. And you found this sense of kind of structure, as you say, purpose that you were seeking, and then it started not working. At what point did. Did it stop working for you?

John Dehlin [00:13:16] And if you want to talk about your post mission life and, you know, just really briefly, just kind of like, how you went from the mission into what, what, Mormonism? Kind of.

Dave Biesinger [00:13:27] Yeah, you bet. And I recognize this is a Mormon story, so I'm not going to go into great detail about the mission or any of that, but, you know, I think a few details are important because, like, seven months after, you know, seven months after just being a crazy kid who was, you know, smoking and smoking cannabis and all of these things and experimenting with drugs and having addictions to being like a missionary was a pretty rapid transition. And within about two months of being in my mission, so I think it was like two or three months, I was actually made like a zone leader.

Dave Biesinger [00:13:56] So I was made a zone leader, like, really early. I was made a district leader pretty much right away. I was older. I was in my 20s. So, like, the experience of working with all of these young people, that was super meaningful to me.

Dave Biesinger [00:14:08] I loved empowering missionaries and just helping them feel like, you know, that they could do their best work, you know, and I really believed in the work. And when I got home from my mission, I actually continued to, like, drive around with stacks of books of Mormon in my car, giving them out to people at gas stations. Some days I'd even still wear a suit like I was. So I loved missionary work, and I really believed in all of it, but it was that curiosity that I've always had that caused me to just. I would voraciously consume all of the literature about the church, you know, because it was true.

Dave Biesinger [00:14:40] Like, I didn't think I would be harmed by digging deep into the details, but as I dug deeper and deeper, a few years into our marriage, I started to find some things.

John Dehlin [00:14:49] You married in the temple?

Dave Biesinger [00:14:50] I got married in the temple. Okay, so back to that story I told Amy before I went on my mission. I was like, I want to marry you, and if you still want to marry me when I get back, then you can just go ahead and plan it. So about two months before I came home, she reaches out to me and she was like, you still want to do this? I was like, let's do it. So two weeks after I got home from my mission, I was married in the temple to amy.

Dave Biesinger [00:15:14] And about 10 months after we were married, well, probably 11 months after we were married, we had a baby. So it was like a lot of life transitions really fast, and I loved it. I felt like I was behind and I really wanted to, like, make up time, you know, So I was super happy with making really fast transitions. But, you know, I have to say, Amy warned me before we got married. She said, like, we're so different, you know, I don't know if a marriage between us would work. And I really wanted to be someone different than I was. And I have to say, like, I tried really hard to change core parts of who I was for the marriage and for the church.

Dave Biesinger [00:15:53] And I did that willingly. Like, no one made me do that. Amy was even like, you can get out of this if you want. You know, I'm not so sure. But I was sure what I wanted, and the church really seemed to provide that for me.

Carah Burrell [00:16:05] Wow.

Margi Dehlin [00:16:06] Do you mind sharing one or two of those areas that, that you felt like you wanted to change well for the church or that you. You kind of decided to give up or tamp down?

Dave Biesinger [00:16:19] I mean, I think that there was a. There was like a wildness to me that was beautiful and good. There was like an open heartedness. Like I was always meeting new people and talking to strangers. And I think I kind of. I kind of narrowed that part of myself to be very focused on just bringing people into the church, as opposed to this kind of openness where there's no agenda and all you're doing is just exploring, like this person's story and learning from them. I felt like there was an openness of heart, like an openness of spirit that I. I did tamp down and narrowed to kind of fit within the paradigm of the church.

Margi Dehlin [00:16:58] Yeah, that makes sense.

Dave Biesinger [00:16:59] And I think I became like, as a person, I think I became a little. A little grumpier, like a little sharper, a little more withdrawn because it was not. It was not like open, free access to your soul anymore. It was like, yeah, sounds like a

John Dehlin [00:17:15] little bit less expensive and broad minded, maybe a little bit more narrow minded.

Dave Biesinger [00:17:22] It was. And it was, it was narrow minded, but on purpose, because it was like, if this is true, then it's what matters. Right? If this is true.

Margi Dehlin [00:17:30] Right.

Dave Biesinger [00:17:30] It really matters. And, you know, because of my history of shame, I also felt like I had a lot of work to do to redeem myself. And I mean, one story that I would love to share is just a moment before the mission, if that's okay. Are we spending too much time on this?

Margi Dehlin [00:17:46] You're great. Your pacing's amazing.

Faith, Marriage, and Life in the Church

Dave Biesinger [00:17:49] Okay. So when Amy, my former spouse, and I were dating, I kind of hit this moment where I had quit smoking. I had left all those things behind. And like, my car still smelled like cigarette smoke and like I still smelled like cigarette smoke. And I just, just felt like. I felt like I was permanently broken, just to be honest. Like, I just felt like irredeemable. And I told her that. I said, you know, I just, I just don't know if I'm ever going to get fixed and I don't feel worthy of someone like you. And I'll remember. I'll remember this moment for the rest of my life.

Dave Biesinger [00:18:27] Like we were down in my parents basement and when I told her that, she just looked at me and she just leaned over and kissed me. It was the first time she had ever kissed me. And that was all that she had to say.

Dave Biesinger [00:18:40] And she just believed. She believed in me, you know, and she gave me everything. She married me, she gave me children, she gave me her faith, like, and that was like the most beautiful gift. And even though she's still in the church and she and I are on different paths, like, I will always be so grateful for the gift that she gave me.

Margi Dehlin [00:19:02] Yeah.

Dave Biesinger [00:19:03] And that was the beginning of like unwinding all of the shame and all of the brokenness and just being redeemed. And I laid a lot of that on, on the Savior at the time, you know, but. But you know, I would have, like, I would still have thoughts from my former life that I felt like were unworthy, you know, and. And that was really hard. I felt like I will never stop having these thoughts. No matter how hard I work, no matter how much I do, no matter how good I am, no matter how perfectly I obey, like I will, I will still always have the remnant of this life that I at that point really regretted.

Margi Dehlin [00:19:43] Yeah, it reminds me a little bit of that quote, wherever you go, there you are kind of that unworthiness and that sense or feeling of brokenness following you even into kind of the church. This as you're finding stability or some of those things. Right. That for sure you were craving or really wanting for yourself in your life.

Dave Biesinger [00:20:04] Yeah. And I have to say, like, that. That desire for like home and stability that I had as a kid, I have to say it, I found it in the church. Like, I found it. I found a steady group of people that I could connect with. I found a sense of community. I found a set of beliefs that I could just lay all of my questions on. You know, I could just hang all of the important questions about life on this set of beliefs. It was all figured out for me, you know, and there was. There was a beautiful safety and comfort in that that I just craved, like, deep in my soul. And it did give me a lot of meaning and purpose until it all started to unravel.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:43] Yeah. So you have. You have now years are the years of kind of purpose and meaning with the church that until. And then tell us how that kind of went, the unraveling, what it looked like.

Dave Biesinger [00:20:56] I mean, at first, it was just me being super curious and digging deeper and deeper and deeper into church history and fact. Like, I was that annoying person in Sunday school who was like, I know the answer to that. I know. I know the Jewish. You know, I know. I know the Hebrew word for that, and it's root. And, you know, I just wanted to be so smart, and so, you know, just have all the answers. And so that just caused me to dig and dig and dig. But then you start to find out things that you didn't know. Like, I actually didn't even know about Joseph Smith's polygamy at the time, and I didn't know about, like, a bunch of other facts about the church.

Dave Biesinger [00:21:30] And they were. They were kind of astounding to me. And when I would. The problem is, I would bring them to Amy. And her dad was like an institute director, so she had already been taught, like, all of the kind of nuanced history of the church. She's like, yeah, of course. You know, you didn't know that. And so it was hard, though, because I was like, no, I didn't know that. Like, I didn't know any of this stuff. I just knew what was in, like, gospel principles and a little bit of what was in gospel doctrine. And then I was just continually learning, But I didn't have a lifelong immersion in. In church history and in church teachings.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:03] Right.

Dave Biesinger [00:22:04] So.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:04] So the more you learn, the more it starts to unravel.

Dave Biesinger [00:22:08] Yes. And then it's like this. This beautiful sense of home starts to be threatened. And so you start to compartmentalize, right? You start to say, I'm going to take. You know, it's the shelf you build, right? You just take it all and you just say, no, I'm going to resolve my cognitive dissonance by putting this stuff over here. It has an answer. A lot of smart people who I really respect and who are great mentors to me, they believe this stuff. They seem to know more about it than I do. And you kind of start to lean on other people. And I really leaned on Amy and other people in my life.

Dave Biesinger [00:22:40] And that's when, you know, so I have this, like, narrowed focus, this limited sense of self. And then you start to take away that natural sense of curiosity, and you start to push more and more of the answers of life and what it all means and even answers to hard questions onto other people. And I felt like I was losing myself.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:00] Right, right. So the more you're kind of leaning on and looking to other people and their thoughts or how they rationalize or how they kind of are working things through, the more you start to feel a disconnect from you.

Dave Biesinger [00:23:15] And I think, like, a big milestone in all of this was shortly after the financial crisis. I lost. I lost a business. I had, like, a pretty catastrophic business loss. I had clients in real estate. Real estate was hit super hard. And it was. It was just. It was brutal because as a. As a Mormon man, like, I, like, a lot of my sense of purpose was in my ability to, like, provide for my family. And so, you know, all of the, all the shame from my childhood and, and decisions I made when I was younger, they all kind of came back around. You know, as I, as I then lost a business, I was.

Dave Biesinger [00:23:51] It was like I was a failure in every way. And I have to say, during that time, like, I started entertaining thoughts of self harm. And I just. I actually thought that maybe my family would just be better off without me. You know, like, they could just have someone who believed they could have someone who could make money and. And they wouldn't be stuck with me, who was, like, so complicated and. And a failure.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:18] Oh, I am so sorry.

Dave Biesinger [00:24:22] But I do have to say, one of the reasons why I'm like, really honored to be on this show, John is Mormon Stories actually saved my life during that time when I thought this world might be better off without me.

Dave Biesinger [00:24:37] A big part of that was I just didn't know how to navigate having doubts and not fully believing in the church and still wanting and needing to be in it because it was such a sense of home for me. It was everything to me. All my friends, all my family, my children, like, everything. My community, all of it was built in that. And so I remember the episode when John talked about baptizing his son and how he kind of navigated that. And I was a Mormon Stories listener back then.

Dave Biesinger [00:25:05] This was back in the super early days of Mormon Stories. But it made me feel like I wasn't alone and that I wasn't crazy for questioning these Things and that I didn't have to keep just leaning on what all of these people. It's okay. Don't worry. It'll all be figured out. It all makes sense. You're just not smart enough to understand it. Like, those ideas, I could start to let them go. And there were people who had really nuanced understandings of church history, who would come on John's show and who. Some were still in the church, some were gone, but it was like finally we were having an adult conversation about it, about all the nuances.

Dave Biesinger [00:25:39] But that episode when you talked about how you navigated baptizing your son, even though you had your doubts, that episode, like, saved my life. I listened to that and I had hope, and I felt like I could do this.

John Dehlin [00:25:51] Before the episode, you felt what?

Dave Biesinger [00:25:53] I felt hopeless. I felt like a failure, irredeemable. And like, I don't. I can't do this, you know? Couldn't do what I could not. I could not navigate pretending to believe in the church, even though a deep part of me didn't.

John Dehlin [00:26:09] So you had lost. You had lost your. So, I mean, you married Amy, you had some kids, you had your business kind of unravel, and then it sounds like your faith was kind of starting to unravel, too.

Unraveling from the LDS Church

Dave Biesinger [00:26:21] Yes. All of that at the same time.

John Dehlin [00:26:23] And then. And then the baptism's coming up, and so you're wondering. It's just like you're feeling trapped, like there's no escape, right?

Dave Biesinger [00:26:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:33] Yeah.

Dave Biesinger [00:26:33] I mean, honestly, the only escape that I could think of at that time was. Was self harm.

John Dehlin [00:26:39] Because. What were the two things you felt trapped between? I just. I want to make. I. You've mentioned this several times, and it's always been very heartfelt. And I've never really asked you what were the two things you felt trapped between?

Dave Biesinger [00:26:52] The truth that was. That was starting to bubble up inside of me and that evidence that this. That the church may not be true, that there. That I might not be living according to my own sense of values, that I actually changed my personality and who I was to fit inside this box. And then the paradox of it is, the box gave me a lot of joy and a lot of peace. But you. But it also didn't feel like it fit my whole soul inside. And so just. Just feeling like, how. I mean, now that I have these children and this wife and this whole life, like, how do you get.

Dave Biesinger [00:27:30] How do you unwind all that? You can't just walk away from all of that. But it. But how do you be True to yourself. How do you. How do you, like, speak up that I have concerns? And how do you find your voice?

Carah Burrell [00:27:41] Yeah.

Dave Biesinger [00:27:41] In that.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:43] Yeah. So how did this unraveling time and this. It sounds like you're in deep suffering, right?

Dave Biesinger [00:27:50] Absolutely. Like. Like the deepest, most profound depression of my life. And. And at that time, I turned to video gaming. I was. I was addicted to video gaming for a long time, and I just found any escape, any outlet I could to just. Just get away from reality. And I had massive cognitive dissonance. And I think I was probably. I probably could. I wasn't diagnosed, but I probably could have been diagnosed with chronic depression at that time.

Carah Burrell [00:28:14] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:15] And amidst all this, how. How would you say it impacted your sense of meaning and purpose? The unraveling.

Dave Biesinger [00:28:21] I had none.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:23] So it unraveled, was gone.

Dave Biesinger [00:28:25] And the beautiful moments that I experienced when I was young of just being wild and free, those were gone, too. I lost all of that. So I didn't have anything.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:35] Yeah.

Dave Biesinger [00:28:36] And I mean, all I had to really live for was trying to provide for my family. And my ability to do that was being taken away. But shortly after that, after I. After I rediscovered hope, that's actually when I started working for the LDS Church.

John Dehlin [00:28:51] So. And just so I understand. So on the one hand, you're realizing the church isn't true. On the other hand, I'm guessing you're realizing that if you bail on the church, you're going to be viewed as a failure, you're going to break the deal with Amy, you're going to disappoint friends and family in the community, and you just fell between a rock and a hard place.

Dave Biesinger [00:29:11] Yeah, for sure. And I wouldn't say that I was realizing the church wasn't true. I would say I was realizing there's a whole lot more to the church than I originally suspected. I don't know that I still believed it was a valid explanation of the world, just not in the way I used to think. And I mean, honestly, for a long time, my way of explaining it was I just believed we were based. We were living in a simulation. And that, like a lot of the stuff that contradicts the church's narrative was, like, put there as a test. That was the only way I could wrap my head around the whole thing, because giving up on believing was just not an option or being a believer.

John Dehlin [00:29:50] And so the breakthrough that got you out of that depression and some of this suicidal ideation was just that there's more, that there was a third way between, yes, throwing it all away and believing all literally.

Dave Biesinger [00:30:03] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:30:03] And the third way, how would you describe that?

Dave Biesinger [00:30:06] It was more, it was a more nuanced approach. It was a, it was an eyes wide open approach. Just take all this history, take all this stuff for what it is, keep being curious, keep digging into it and suspend disbelief. I would say suspend my disbelief, you know, doubt my doubts.

John Dehlin [00:30:21] Right.

Dave Biesinger [00:30:22] But like hold, hold on to the faith but also don't, don't just hang the answers on someone else smarter than me knows the answer to this. Keep digging down. That's where I ended up. And that's kind of the mental space I was in while I worked at the church.

John Dehlin [00:30:35] And then. Margi, I love that you're bringing out just this idea that. Well, that you brought Dave to this idea that he, he, the church filled a sense of meaning and purpose in your life. But then when that imploded, it left you both without your original self and without the church to provide the meaning and purpose. What. Were you to say something, Martin? Sorry.

Margi Dehlin [00:30:58] Oh, no, no, I was going to say. So it sounds like you are. You have these moments of just extreme despair, is that right? Just a real, real depression and feeling of lostness. And, and so out of that did this nuanced approach, is that where this nuance approach was born?

Dave Biesinger [00:31:20] Yes, that is so well said. You should be telling my story. That's so. Well, like, like recapitulated, summed up like. That's exactly right. And, and through. And in that period of more like nuanced way of operating, that's when I went to work for the L.

Dave Biesinger [00:31:39] And a little, a little ways into that journey and I enjoyed working for the church. You know, I came from a background of, you know, just kind of, I was involved in some startups and you know, I had my own business for a while. So like, I was pretty like type A. Like, you know, I could like grind in and get things done. So they gave me some projects, I got them done pretty quick and quicker than they thought. And you know, my boss at the time, Mark Tuttle, he had some budget and Ali Isom came to him and said, you know, we, we need some budget for this project.

Dave Biesinger [00:32:12] It was like a revamp of Mormons and gays. You know, they were like, she was asked to take a look at that project and like revamp that website. And Mark said, you know, you, you can have, you can have this budget that I have, but you also, you also need to take on Dave and I want him to collaborate with you. And so I kind of fell into the opportunity to work on this project, revamping Mormons and Gays. And that was. That became like, a beautiful project I worked on that gave me a lot of sense of meaning and purpose. Like, as a kid, I was an actor, so I was around gay people a lot.

Dave Biesinger [00:32:46] Like, it was. I didn't think of them as, like, any different than any other human being. Like, honestly, I didn't even. And in my time in the church, I don't know that I really even noticed it. Like, I wasn't paying attention to it, and, like, I'm not gay, so it wasn't, like, an experience that I had sat around thinking about very much. But then when I was given this assignment, like, the first thing I wanted to do would be, like, well, what's this like for them? And so we went on kind of a tour where we did all these focus groups. We talked to people who are, like, in the church and out of the church and spouses and parents and all of these people across the country.

Dave Biesinger [00:33:18] And through that, like, just hearing all of these, like, heart wrenching stories about people who are trying to make their faith work with their sexuality, and that was, like, I really wanted to, like, help these people to find healing and to find a place where they could call home. You know, I knew the church had given me that at some point, and I wanted to help them find that. And that really became a driver of finding meaning and purpose during my time in church employment, for sure.

Margi Dehlin [00:33:48] Okay, so now you have kind of this another relationship with meaning and purpose in the new nuance realm. Yes, right.

Dave Biesinger [00:33:56] That's exactly right.

Margi Dehlin [00:33:57] Got it.

John Dehlin [00:33:58] And helping and helping LGBT people.

Margi Dehlin [00:34:00] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:34:00] That's a real need. Yes.

Margi Dehlin [00:34:02] Within the space. So you're feeling like you're actually healing and helping a space that you love and care about.

Dave Biesinger [00:34:09] Absolutely. And. And it wasn't a space that I really even thought of before, but once it was brought to my attention and once I saw, like, the pain, and it was, like, a particularly hard problem because, like, the church's core teachings and doctrine are, like, you know, diametrically opposed to, like, a healthy. I mean, I'll just say it, like, a healthy LGBTQ identity is not congruent with, like, the core teachings of the church. Like, they. I mean, it's. You know, you cannot fully express, like, that part. That aspect of your humanity. And, like, I met many people who were just living, like. Like a life of celibacy, and I even met church employees who were gay and living a life of celibacy.

Dave Biesinger [00:34:55] And being single. And it was a population that was totally invisible to me. But it was like, I. To me, that's like one of the hardest things you could ever, like, ask somebody to do.

Margi Dehlin [00:35:08] Yep. So did you feel like another crisis was brewing or did you feel kind of around that topic with you as you were talking to people and seeing kind of the church's stance on that and then the suffering, or at this point, or is your experience mostly like, I can do some good here. I think I can do some good.

Navigating LGBTQ Issues Within Mormonism

Dave Biesinger [00:35:27] Oh, absolutely. I can do some good here because I figured, okay, I. Okay, I see where you're at and I can see where you're at and I can see how we could like find common ground, you know, and part of that was, you know, like, we created like a glossary of terms for general authorities, for like, you know, I mean, they didn't. I mean, we put words in there like cisgender and you know what I mean? Like, what are the definitions of all of these terms and what do they really mean? And then we looked at peer reviewed literature. You know, we met with a few college professors who had this area of expertise, and we gathered best practices and we kind of distributed those among the leadership.

Dave Biesinger [00:36:06] We also gathered a ton of stories so that we could put like a human face on it and so that. So that it was real. And I was super proud of that work and it was well received, you know, and we, you know, we, the team of us came up with this recommendation basically to, you know, the old website. I don't. I mean, this is ancient history. Most people won't remember the old website. It looks like I'm doing something else here. I didn't mean that. I just.

John Dehlin [00:36:30] Texas Longhorns. Go Longhorns.

Dave Biesinger [00:36:33] The old website. So the old website was Mormons and gays. And this is what this was for. We dropped the two S's. So it was Mormon and gay. And the idea was, you know, you could be both, you know, and now I have like, mixed feelings about that promise because I don't know. I don't know if you can really be both. But at the time that felt very invigorating. Like, I really felt like we could, we could help people see how they could be both and. Yeah, absolutely. That was definitely a driver of meaning and purpose. I'm sorry, what was the question?

Margi Dehlin [00:37:05] Yeah, brilliant. So what happened? So at what point did that meaning and purpose. Was there another breakdown? Was there another take us through that or. Or did it morph into something else? Take us through the Kind of meaning and purpose.

Dave Biesinger [00:37:22] I mean, my. My curiosity just led me to keep learning. And I read books like Thinking Fast and Slow, where I learned about selection bias. I learned about all of the, like, cog. Affairs of the mind. And I kind of could. I mean, this is. You know, I don't know if this is appropriate, but, you know, your. Your episode Margi was, like, so powerful. And when you talked about, like, the church has these sets of teachings with a promise, right. If you do this, you will have this result. Right? There's that, like, promise. And. And I know, like, I was in that paradigm. I had this, like, one paradigm to see the world.

Dave Biesinger [00:38:01] But I think what was really starting to happen to me during that, I was assimilating a bunch of different paradigms for seeing the world. Another book that was really impactful to me was the Selfish Gene by Richard Dawkins. And at the end of that book, he coins the term meme, which is like a little social packet of information that's transmissible and obeys the same laws of selective pressure as genes do. And I just started to see that all these little messages that we were crafting and communications, they were like little memes, and that I had memes running in my head. So I was just continuing to discover new paradigms, new mental models that helped me to see myself and my situation, I think, with, like, clearer eyes, because I could see it through multiple perspectives.

Dave Biesinger [00:38:47] Like, I had. I had the Mormon way of seeing my life, but I also was starting to take a look at my life a little bit more objectively and, you know, starting to look at it through the lens of, like, attachment issues or cognitive errors. And so they're just, like, more and more. I just found that, like, secular and a broad variety of paradigms for understanding reality was a more useful tool to understand what was really happening in the world versus having to just fit everything into this one paradigm.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:20] Got it. Yep. Yeah. Should we check in with.

John Dehlin [00:39:25] She started to be more expansive in your thinking again, which it sounds like you started. You kind of started out that way.

Dave Biesinger [00:39:31] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:33] It's like the seeker. The seeker comes back and you start.

Dave Biesinger [00:39:36] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:39:37] You'd beat it down a little bit or turned it off.

Dave Biesinger [00:39:40] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:39:41] And it sounds like it just leaked. It leaked out or it leaked out. The fully suppressed. My gosh.

Dave Biesinger [00:39:47] And during this time, like, we should check in with Carah. But last thing I'll. Last thing I'll say about that, like, during this time, I would be sitting in, you know, meetings with our executive director, you know, who's a who's a member of the 70. And I would like quote Richard Dawkins about memes and stuff. Like, I was pretty open about being kind of part secular and part religious.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:07] Yes.

Dave Biesinger [00:40:08] I think they found it useful. I mean, I think having these multiple ways of seeing things was useful for the work we were doing.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:15] Yeah, Carah.

Carah Burrell [00:40:17] Yeah, I just wanted to give a shout out to all of our super chats in the YouTube. Anyone who wants to throw some money at the podcast, thank you so much. JC Said Mormon stories saves lives. Thank you, John, Margi and team.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:29] Team.

Carah Burrell [00:40:29] So glad to hear that you are able, we're able to get through that phase and that you're with us today still, Dave. So the only other thing that I'll add is how many times have we heard a Mormon Stories interviewee think back to their nuanced phase and go, oh, I can do some work here. And in fact, they were not able

Margi Dehlin [00:40:44] to do the work they thought that they could do.

Carah Burrell [00:40:46] They tried, but sometimes we get exhausted in the spaces when we're trying to go against such a big system, but still, of course, want people to get to where work in whatever places that they can. So anyway, I'm loving this, so thanks for. You're being so honest and vulnerable too. So that's, that's hard to do as. As is. So thanks, Dave. Oh, that's, that's the piece for me, though.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:06] Yeah. Thank you, Carah. Yeah. So what I'm hearing is you're now in this nuanced place, you're working at the church, and you're also seeking and, you know, looking at you. Your life and how you're relating to your life and even religion and your relationship to the church from a lot of different perspectives. So where does that lead?

Dave Biesinger [00:41:31] That leads to me, ultimately. It was, it was the, it was the conference that was in the fall of 2018 and it was, you know, more Mormon and gay had launched. We had just also done the 40th anniversary celebration on the revelation on the priesthood, which was like a, A, a concert with Gladys Knight. And we were able to like, say the, the names of like, people like Green Flake in the conference center, which, which felt like a huge, it felt like a huge achievement. And I was a little part of that. And I was really grateful for our

John Dehlin [00:42:03] viewers who don't know.

Dave Biesinger [00:42:04] Oh, I'm so sorry. Green Flake was, was a slave who was paid to Brigham Young for tithing. If I, if I have that history correct.

John Dehlin [00:42:12] And did they also talk about Elijah Abel?

Dave Biesinger [00:42:14] Elijah Abel? Yeah, we mentioned Jane Manning, James. We mentioned all of these names in that space.

John Dehlin [00:42:18] That was, that was an accomplishment. Why? For those who have no idea.

Dave Biesinger [00:42:20] Oh, I'm so sorry. For the, I mean, I mean the original, the, the original conception of that as a celebration was this kind of forward looking. It was this like forward looking, we're all one people, isn't it? Every, everything's okay kind of an approach.

John Dehlin [00:42:36] Is it okay backing up like, obviously the church withheld the priesthood from people of African descent, Mormons of African descent, forever for like 150 plus years. 78.

Dave Biesinger [00:42:47] Well, they had it at first. There were bishops. There were like, like Joseph Smith called people as bishops.

John Dehlin [00:42:53] Right. So, okay, so in the early years of the church, Smith was okay. Ordaining.

Dave Biesinger [00:42:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:59] People of African descent to the priesthood. Brigham Young takes it away.

Dave Biesinger [00:43:03] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:43:03] The church has 150 years of.

Dave Biesinger [00:43:05] Right.

John Dehlin [00:43:06] Racist exclusionary policies. 78. They bring it back. But apparently there was still a PR problem or what. Or perception problem.

Dave Biesinger [00:43:14] Well, yeah, I mean there were still, there was, I mean there was institutional racism and, and in the church. And there's like, there's teachings about like, you know, skin getting lighter as you get more righteous. Like there's, there's stuff like in there that is just challenging. I mean, for anybody who has more melanin in their skin, there's stuff to confront in the core church teachings that's challenging. And you know, that doesn't mean that people can't believe in the church or choose to interpret it in other ways. But you know, this, this original 40th anniversary celebration, it was originally conceived as kind of a looking forward.

Dave Biesinger [00:43:48] And there was a wonderful group of black sisters. And I think there were a couple guys involved that really wanted to create this kind of cultural celebration where we really owned the history. And I felt like I could have just a little bit of an influence. And I had meetings with Correlation and we kind of got some of this stuff through and it was, it was really meaningful to me to be able to have a small contribution and us being able to like recognize the pain.

John Dehlin [00:44:22] Is it fair to say that people for decades have been calling for an apology and that this, that maybe the church isn't big on apologies, but that this was something that wasn't quite an apology but would at least try and address some of those concerns?

Dave Biesinger [00:44:35] Oh, no doubt. And I, you'll all remember the morning of the spoof apology, you know, and there were people who thought it was real.

John Dehlin [00:44:43] And you were at the church at the time.

Dave Biesinger [00:44:44] I was working for Church Public affairs at the time. Yeah. And. And I knew people personally who originally thought that it was, like, legit, and that was so, like, momentarily healing and like, the whiplash for those people as they realized it was a prank was just devastating. Absolutely devastating. So, yeah, you could. You could clearly say that there was. There was a. There was a desire for an apology, no doubt. But, yeah, the church. That's not. That's not something that the church does. So.

John Dehlin [00:45:16] So this event.

Dave Biesinger [00:45:18] Yeah, I mean, that was like, the last big thing I worked on, and it was super meaningful. It was. It was a beautiful thing, but really, like, at the end of my, you know, it was. It was October 2018 conference, and there was a. There was a speech given from the pulpit about the proclamation on the family. And, like, I got a bunch of texts and, you know, like. Like, I had some contacts at places like Encircle, and. And they were seeing, like, intakes going up, and just. Just. I kind of started to feel like I was. I was working to try to create this space that was never really going to be safe for these people. And that was. That was really hard to confront. And I think that was when I was like, I don't. I don't think I can keep doing this. I don't think I can keep working for this organization.

John Dehlin [00:46:11] Mark, you have to forgive me. I'm geeking out a little bit that he worked for the church. So I'll just ask one more question. Were you at church headquarters when the November 2015 policy came out?

Dave Biesinger [00:46:21] I was.

John Dehlin [00:46:22] And then were you there when it was rescinded? And do you have any response on.

Dave Biesinger [00:46:26] I was not when it was rescinded.

John Dehlin [00:46:27] So when it came out, what was that like? Was. What was that like?

Dave Biesinger [00:46:30] I mean, we were. We were working on the revamp of Mormon and gay when that policy came out, and it. It set us way back. I mean, we just. We just didn't see it coming. We didn't know about it, and it hit us out of nowhere. And honestly, like, I mean, just. Just to be super honest with you guys, like, I collapsed in the shower in tears, like, in a little ball of tears after that policy came out. Like, that was really, really hard.

Dave Biesinger [00:46:56] And just. Just the pain and like, I. These people were real to me now. Like, I knew a lot of people who. Who this policy would affect. I had a dear, you know, shout out to Rod Olson, my dear friend who is an uncle. And, you know, he was like, so where does that put me? You know, he was like. He was, like, trying to make the church work and he's like, where does this lead me? You know, it was. It was hard, and it was personal.

Dave Biesinger [00:47:21] I mean, not for me, but for people who I loved. And I saw that pain. But when that policy came out, I felt like my personal resolve to try to bring the sides of this together

John Dehlin [00:47:33] was only strengthened because you imagine these church employees just being like, whatever the prophet says, we're good with it, and then everyone just moving to be supportive and feeling supportive. But you're saying that. I mean, you're an example of people that would be working on the payroll, that would not be feeling good in their jobs when certain decisions got made. Is that right?

Dave Biesinger [00:47:54] Yeah. I mean, there's. There's no doubt about that. It was hard for a lot of people. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:48:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:02] You weren't alone in feeling awful about that sort of thing.

Dave Biesinger [00:48:05] All of us, like, we had. I mean, we had a conference call with the people who are working on the project, and, like, there were people on that call who were in tears. And, you know, it wasn't like. I don't think that there was a feeling of, like. Like, there wasn't, like, questioning the church or saying this. It was just like, oh, this is so hard. Like, these. These people are already, like, laboring under so much, and they already have, like, such a hard time making this whole thing work. And this is just like one more. One more layer of pain on top.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:37] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:39] But you persist, because maybe you can make a difference.

Dave Biesinger [00:48:42] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:48:43] Chain a little bit.

Dave Biesinger [00:48:43] For sure.

John Dehlin [00:48:44] Okay. Sorry, Margi. Yeah, I don't mean to drill.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:47] It reminds me so much of, you know, so many of us at one point or another, where, you know, we are in more of the nuanced space with this hope or intention to change things from the inside and to try and have a go at that. Yeah, right.

Dave Biesinger [00:49:04] For sure. And I. You know, deep my heart, like, I loved the Mormon culture. Like, my. My family has, like, a rich heritage with the Mormon culture. Like, you know, my. So my grandfather, he served missions for, like, his whole life. He had nine kids. Almost all of his kids serve missions. They're all active in the church now. You know, there's, like, the George Ra. There's the George B. Singer hall in New Zealand, which is, like, a little church college that was named for him. So, like, my family had, like, a rich heritage in the church, and so I loved everything about the church. And you know what?

Dave Biesinger [00:49:40] In many ways, I'll say this. Like, even though we've talked about some of the challenging things about the church, I think it really works for some people. And for those people, like, you know, I don't want to take that away from them if it's working. You know, if they're living a life where they can make that work. I don't want to be someone who walks in and takes that away if it's working for them. It didn't work for me.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:03] Yeah. And when did that become really clear for you? Was there. Was there a moment where. Now your nuances. So you've kind of been through it in a way before, Right. Where you kind of lost a bit of that meaning and purpose? Right. And then you hit this low point. Did it. Does it happen again?

Dave Biesinger [00:50:22] So. So coming out of church employment was really helpful for me because I didn't have, like, it's. I mean, look, I'll just say for what it is. Like, I mean, they were cutting my paychecks. You know what I mean? Like, it's hard to question too deeply an organization when it's, like, your employer. And so I just didn't open my mind to that. But once. Once I was kind of outside of church employment, I was able to just kind of take the blinders off a little bit and really start to openly question a bit more and think more about, like, who I wanted to be and what I wanted my life to be.

Psychedelic Experience and Spiritual Awakening

Dave Biesinger [00:51:05] And so that process of open questioning, that led me. I don't know. I guess I'll just share the experience. So I had an experience with psychedelic mushrooms, and I didn't take very much. It was like 2 grams. And I went for a little walk in the woods. And when I was out in the woods, this was when I was still married, but I was no longer working for the church. When I was out on this little walk in the woods, like, I felt that sense of wonder that I had felt as a child, you know, riding on the back of a horse through fields of fireflies.

Dave Biesinger [00:51:40] Like, I felt so connected to nature. I felt so connected to my family. And I felt this sense of, like, awe and wonder. And that was, like. It was transcendent. And, you know, it was just beautiful. And that is, like, the deepest source of meaning that I've ever discovered is just being present in these beautiful moments where you feel this sense of just glorious awe, open wonder at it all. You feel so small, but yet you feel so big because you're connected to so much more than you.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:17] Yeah.

Dave Biesinger [00:52:18] After that experience, I. The next day, I was asking a

John Dehlin [00:52:22] question before the experience.

Dave Biesinger [00:52:23] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:52:24] So. So you had left the church, you had lost that meaning. And purpose. Did you. Did you turn to psilocybin or mushrooms as a way to try and fill that hole again that had been missing or not, or, like, talk about the meaning after leaving the church and if there was any way, a connection between what you were trying to fill or seek and that mushroom experience?

Dave Biesinger [00:52:50] I hadn't really left the church at this point. I mean, I'd left church employment.

John Dehlin [00:52:54] That's what I mean.

Dave Biesinger [00:52:54] Yeah, I'd left church employment, yeah. But I had not left the church. And so I think I had a relatively solid sense of meaning and purpose at this time. It wasn't fully developed, but I even, like, when I was working the church, my sense of meaning and purpose was a hundred percent tied to these, like, projects I was working on, you know, between projects that would kind of dry up for me. But when I had something I could throw my whole soul into, it was there again. And so that was a big part of why it was hard for me to walk away from church employment.

Dave Biesinger [00:53:23] Like, I felt like I was able to work on some things that were really impactful and that were very meaningful to me. But I was finding that outside. I was finding that in my career. I was finding that in nature. So I think I had. I would say I didn't lose my sense of meaning and purpose after leaving church employment. I would say that I started to really plant some seeds through, like, healthy personal practices that. That would ultimately come to fruition. And one of those moments, you know, I mean, it's. It's funny we're talking about a mushroom experience, because the way that mushrooms grow, right, like, they have this, like, long, kind of almost like, gestation period where the mycelial network all connects, you know, and then suddenly overnight, they, like, pop up out of ground, and it's all this explosive growth.

Dave Biesinger [00:54:05] And so I feel like during this time after I left church employment, like, I was just planting the seeds. I was like a little mushroom. I'm sorry about the mic.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:16] Right.

Dave Biesinger [00:54:17] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:54:17] And so popped up like a mushroom.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:20] Well, he was. And he was like. He was doing a lot of work, it sounds like, under the surface.

Dave Biesinger [00:54:26] Yes. Groundwork starting to just. So I had meditated for 10 years, but I really started taking my meditation practice far more seriously. I started to take my physical health far more seriously. I. I just. I just decided that I wanted to, like, build a really good life for myself. And I started to get friends, like, real good friends. You know, you mentioned Christian Moore, like, Clint Martin. I have to say, like, Clint Martin is such an amazing human Being. And he was like. He was like such a good friend for. And still is like, such a good friend for me, like, right when I needed it.

Dave Biesinger [00:55:01] Like, he was a godsend, you know, and he and I would talk like every day, and he really. Having this, like, kind of group of people that I felt had unconditional positive regard for me helped me to really develop what I don't think I had had up to that point. And this really goes back to the beginning of the story. My childhood trauma. I had not fully dealt with that. Like, I had learned to identify thought patterns and step away from them, but I had not fully processed that childhood trauma. And having others have unconditional positive regard for me, it really helped me and gave me permission to have unconditional positive regard for myself.

Dave Biesinger [00:55:46] And that's when I really started to do some of this inner work, which kind of culminated in one way in the. In that mushroom experience.

Margi Dehlin [00:55:55] Right, right, I can see that. So, okay, can I back up, please? Go. Kind of. So I'm kind of feeling like in the beginning of your story. Right. With kind of meaning and purpose, that there's this really, this. There's this desire to feel loved and seen. But you're experiencing a ton of instability. Is that right in your. But like meaning and purpose as a child was like, you're connecting to aliveness, moments of just unbridled feeling, awake and alive to the moment. Is that right?

Dave Biesinger [00:56:28] Absolutely right. And I would say during that period, another really important part of the picture is I did not have a secure attachment stuff style. And so a lot of the kind of turmoil was self generated too. Like, we moved around a lot, but like, I also just bounced around between friends and groups and activities and all of that.

Margi Dehlin [00:56:47] Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. And then I have kind of. The church kind of comes in. Right. And meaning and purpose on a level becomes stability.

Dave Biesinger [00:56:57] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [00:56:58] Focus.

Dave Biesinger [00:56:59] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [00:56:59] Right.

Dave Biesinger [00:56:59] Discipline.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:01] Discipline.

Dave Biesinger [00:57:01] Answers.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:02] Yes. You. You can connect clear cut. Right. The answers. And even the building, probably the good life includes the building of your family.

Dave Biesinger [00:57:13] Absolutely.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:14] You have your children, you have. Right?

Dave Biesinger [00:57:16] Yes. And I have callings. You know, I have. I have a job. Like, I've got. Like, I'm providing for family. Like, everything is back on track again.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:24] Right.

Dave Biesinger [00:57:25] And. And the church helped me tremendously. Like, the church was so helpful to me during that period. I think that young people need structure and they need a framework. And I think the church does provide a helpful structure. I just think it comes along with this, like, bundle of shame and ideas that can be, like, mentally limiting. So I personally, I've chosen. I've decided that the benefits are not worth the cost when it, when it comes to the church for me, me now, now.

John Dehlin [00:57:54] But at the time, but at the

Dave Biesinger [00:57:55] time, I really needed it.

John Dehlin [00:57:56] Yeah.

Dave Biesinger [00:57:57] Like, I could have also gotten the same things through, like going to boot camp or, you know what I mean, joining the military, which I also thought of doing. But, like, I needed that structure from somewhere and that's where I found it was in the church. And I'm very grateful.

Margi Dehlin [00:58:07] Right. And then amidst that, you have, you have kind of this loss that happens and a kind of crisis of meaning and purpose and self almost. Right, Right. And then it feels like you move into that kind of nuance and that's your church. Like when you go to work for the church. Right. And then meaning and purpose becomes almost like showing up for, for people.

Dave Biesinger [00:58:32] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [00:58:33] Trying to create change, make a better life for people within this paradigm. Right. And that becomes kind of meaning and purpose. And now just to bring us up to date. Right. It feels like now you've left the church and now what I see is you're kind of tending to yourself, tending to kind of rebuilding a little bit. Would you say? You're kind of rebuilding and creating a world with people who see you, who offer you this attachment in love where. And you're meditating and you had a mushrooms experience that brought you almost like an integrated self experience. It brings you back to a time when you, you remember this core piece of yourself that maybe you left a little bit. Is that right? And then also what brings you that it might bring you alive here now as well. Is that right?

Dave Biesinger [00:59:27] It's so right. And, you know, I'll go back to what you talked about in, in your podcast, which is, which is coming home, you know, and, and I think that I was able to find home, home finally, the good life, like, in me, like, find a place where I can have like, inner peace, where, like, my inner world matches my outer world. And I feel like congruent, like a whole person. Like a whole person who can live authentically in the moment. Right. And have nothing to fear from the moment and have no, no spinning thoughts. Right. But like, it really, it really, you know, the kind of final chapter of the story after, you know, finding so much meaning and purpose and serving others.

Dave Biesinger [01:00:10] Like, I have so much meaning and purpose in serving me and in building me. And I, you know, like, I homeschool my daughter right now, and I would not have had the capability of doing that three years ago. I could not have Juggled all of the things that I'm juggling right now. But, you know, there is, I have to say, I mean, I mean, this might sound crazy and it might sound, like, bold or overconfident, but, like, there is a very beautiful sense of ease that can come into life when we're not fighting so hard for control, when we are just kind of letting go a little bit and recognizing with really accurate reality, like, what am I actually in control of?

Dave Biesinger [01:00:52] And just tweaking those little knobs and then just having kind of an openness and just kind of showing up as you and like, continuing to build yourself from within in a way that's super sustainable. Like, showing up for those things, it just doesn't take as much willpower anymore, you know, when we can make them a little bit more, like, automatic, like, just breathe.

Dave Biesinger [01:01:12] It becomes like it, like the good life becomes natural. Like, it just flows out of you. It's just, like, woven by your soul in a way that you don't even fully understand. But there's a part of me that is creating these, like, beautiful moments of presence with people who I love. Connections, friendships, you know, moments with myself, you know, through meditation. And I have, like, a kind of a chanting practice that I do.

Dave Biesinger [01:01:36] But, like, these moments are, like, woven by the deeper me. And in. In a way that I don't know that I could consciously put together. And I just have to trust that and. And trusting it so far, it's kind of going back to that wild me, you know, that. That wild me that was open and free. But I think I've held on to the structure and the discipline that helps me to create a more sustainable wildness, if that makes any sense.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:05] Yeah, it does make sense. Sense. Can I ask you a question? So. And go back just for a minute, because I love you now, talking about the good life and what it looks like for you if we were going to talk about rebuilding. You mentioned some things already, but I want to just go a little bit deeper just to make sure we got everything okay. So you kind of talk about the mushroom and kind of doing all. And planting seeds for a while. And I feel like you mentioned a meditation practice. You mentioned psilocybin. During that, you mentioned surrounding and meeting some of the people who are still in your life today, like a family of sorts. Right.

The End of a Marriage and Personal Grief

Dave Biesinger [01:02:45] And you mentioned you guys.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:47] Oh, shucks, Steve. But like, Clint in there. Right. And Christian Moore in there for sure. And so what other pieces were key to your rebuilding? If you've left, was that pretty much it Was there anything you left out?

Carah Burrell [01:03:06] What?

John Dehlin [01:03:06] Yeah, I'm. I wonder how comfortable you are talking about the end of your marriage in the sense that I think some marriages survive a faith crisis and some don't, and I don't know to what extent the conscious decision to end your marriage was an important step.

Dave Biesinger [01:03:27] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:03:27] In your development. And then I just want to go right on with. What he's saying is kind of an enumeration of the most important elements of your reconstruction, but it seems like those are going to weave into the story of you ending your relationship with Amy. And I was. I've been your friend as that happened. So I've. I've got my own kind of witness to that. But I want to hear you talk about it first. Yeah. And that's okay, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [01:03:53] That sounds great.

Dave Biesinger [01:03:54] So, I mean, really, that. That decision. I was not looking to end my marriage. Like, I. I was not. I. You know, I honestly, like, I love Amy. I still love her. I don't love her in the same way, but, like, she's, like. She's been the best friend that I've ever had. You know, she's, like, right there. She's one of my very best friends to this day.

Dave Biesinger [01:04:17] And so that was not something that I entertained lightly. So after my mushroom experience, I was feeling the sense of, like, openness and connection, and I had not felt that very often. And so, I mean, this is, like, a super personal story, but, like, we were just. We were just laying there snuggling, and we hadn't done that much. Like, we had drifted apart, even though we loved each other very much. And she just asked me the question. She said, you seem different. Like, you seem more, like, open and, like, loving. She was. And she was like, tell me about that. And one of the things that I realized through my mushroom experience was that, like, truth has power.

Dave Biesinger [01:04:55] Truth has a real power. And I could not lie to her. And so I told her what I had done, and I told her why I was feeling the way I was feeling. And that kind of precipitated the events that led to the ending of our marriage. But, you know, ultimately. Ultimately, one more story I can share is.

Dave Biesinger [01:05:14] I mean, I remember this day very vividly. I was sitting. I was sitting on the edge of the bathtub, and she was sitting in the master closet, and she just looked up at me and. And she just said, you're gonna break me.

Dave Biesinger [01:05:28] And I was like, I can't do it. And I. I just decided, like, okay, I guess I'll break instead. And There was this deep part of me that was like, that's not right. Like, it's, it's not right for me to break myself, to spare her that.

Dave Biesinger [01:05:47] And I just had, I just realized, like, I had to choose me. Like, my life was worth living. I really, I'm so sorry that that caused her pain. I never wanted to cause her any pain.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:12] Sorry.

Dave Biesinger [01:06:17] But I did. I chose me. And I think that was, like, one of the healthiest choices I ever made. And, you know, up until that point, I didn't really have, like, an authentic relationship with my kids because, frankly, I was lying to them, them about who I was and what I believed. And I just decided, like, no more lies, like, no more hiding. Like, let's just, let's just whatever is, is, and I'm okay with it. I don't know what will happen when I die, but I know that living right now, it's so beautiful. It's amazing.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:00] Right?

Dave Biesinger [01:07:00] And leaning into those experiences, so, so yes, that ended to the, that led to the end of the marriage. But I.

John Dehlin [01:07:08] Such a. We talk about the term anti Mormon sometimes. It's thrown away loosely. The idea of choosing yourself, the idea of not sacrificing yourself for your marriage, you could almost say is an anti Mormon concept, because in Mormonism, I think we're taught marriage before herself. So that's kind of a radical decision you made.

Dave Biesinger [01:07:28] It was, it was.

John Dehlin [01:07:30] And it would be viewed as selfish.

Dave Biesinger [01:07:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:32] In the Mormon context.

Dave Biesinger [01:07:33] Yeah. And you know what? I think, I think my kids had that very idea. I think that they felt like dad, dad decided to get divorced from mom so that he could just kind of do whatever he wanted. You know, they don't think that now, but I think at the time, you know, and there was a time after, after Amy and I separated. So as, as we separated, like, you know, we kind of made an agreement when we entered this marriage that we would raise our children in the CH Church. And so I really wanted to honor that, even though I couldn't honor it myself.

Dave Biesinger [01:08:01] And so I just, I, I, I didn't fight her for custody or anything. I just said, she can have full custody of the kids and she could try her, she could raise them in the church. And I just kind of let that go. And there was a time period right after our separation when I really had very little contact with my children, and I wondered if I would ever have a relationship with my kids again. And that was really, that was really tough. It's, I mean, it's totally different now. Like, my, my Daughter lives full time. You know, like, I just went hiking on Sunday of Rock Canyon with my son.

Dave Biesinger [01:08:32] I've got a great relationship with my kids, but it's built on authenticity. It's like, it's a real relationship. So. So kind of going back to that moment of separation and me kind of choosing me. I think the way that. I think Amy views it this way. I think the way we both viewed it was we were going different directions. Like, our lives were just on a different trajectory, and we had changed. Like, we had grown. Like, how can we expect to, you know, be. You know, we've known. We had known each other for 20 years at that point, and we had both changed in many ways, but we just had different worlds.

Dave Biesinger [01:09:05] We were going on, and I felt like we were. We were holding each other at the crossroads, you know, we were clinging to one another and holding onto each other at the crossroads, and neither of us could go down our road. We had to have the courage to let each other go so that we could part ways, you know, and it's not a full parting. Like, we're. We're still connected to each other, but we're walking our own roads now. And that feels so satisfying.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:31] Yes. There's so much. There is so much wisdom, I think, in what you're talking about, and I'm so. It feels like when you describe that moment, you being on the side of the bathtub and was she in the closet? The is just like this moment of recognition of, like, where. Where you each are, where she says, you're going to break me. And then you initially wanting to give this thing, well, then I'll just break myself. Isn't that what you said? And then realizing, you know, either way, someone dies to stay in that it's hurts you. Like there's a death going on. And I think we see that. Right. We can look around and see marriages where people are together, but they're not really alive in that relationship. And so on some level. Level, it's that setting each other free.

Dave Biesinger [01:10:24] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:25] That love gets to live on in a different form. It still exists, but you're kind of setting each other free. Is that right?

Dave Biesinger [01:10:32] Absolutely. You know, and. And there's nothing I want more for her than for her to find someone who, like, can give her what she needs and what she wants. Like, that can, like, show up for her in the church and in ways that. That she needs someone to show up for her. I just couldn't do it and be me at the same time.

John Dehlin [01:10:49] Time.

Dave Biesinger [01:10:49] It didn't work. For me, it didn't, like the church didn't give me the feeling of expansiveness and you know, like soul weaving that I'm experiencing right now. Like to, to find that I really had to find I really had to walk down some other roads. And so back to, back to the original question. You know, some of the things, I mean I, I've read, I've read a ton of books, right? So I like reading a lot of books so we can learn from experience and that experience is the most powerful, powerful teacher. But you don't have to just learn from your experiences. Like you could take the distilled wisdom of an entire lifetime and just ingest it.

Dave Biesinger [01:11:23] That's like a miracle to me, the fact that we can read other people's wisdom. You know, I love, I love the Four Agreements, I love the Fifth Agreement, I love Eckhart Tolle, I love many works across the psychological literature. You know, and as I've kind of been like dialing my, dialing in my daily routines and practices and, and like my protocols and stuff, you know, I spend a fair bit of time like, like digging into peer reviewed literature and like I have my little zotero reference list where I keep all my notes. And so it's, I've, I've kind of made the good life like, like an area of study and I'm like an n of 1.

Dave Biesinger [01:11:59] Like I'm an experiment, right? I am experimenting on myself constantly and tweaking things and dialing them in. But I would say like the core practices would be yoga. Like I love yoga. Yoga has made me feel like my body right now, like I'm working on doing like, you know, the iron cross on the R and you know, handstands and planches and all of these things. And yoga was what opened that. Yoga was what made my body feel like whole again, you know, because I was, I was, I was very overweight. At one point I had a back surgery. Like I had some pretty serious health issues and you know, I lost the weight, but the weight wasn't really what mattered.

Dave Biesinger [01:12:39] Like, I don't think weight matters. Like I've just found where I feel like healthy and whole as a human organism. Like we first and foremost, like we're animals, you know, like we are homo sapiens. You know what I mean? Like there may also be a soul. I hope there is. But first and foremost, like we're an organism and we have to use best practices to care for the organism if we're going to feel emotionally and physically and mentally.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:07] Well, yeah, Yep. So I'm hearing kind of reading, I'm hearing yoga bringing you back to your body, right?

Dave Biesinger [01:13:15] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:15] And what else would you say?

Dave Biesinger [01:13:17] Meditation. Yeah. Healthy eating. Like there's, there's a bunch of little like health driven protocols that I follow, but in terms of like finding meaning and purpose, I think, I think.

John Dehlin [01:13:29] So you changed your diet. I mean that's probably significant.

Dave Biesinger [01:13:32] Oh yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:32] Maybe talk briefly about that.

Dave Biesinger [01:13:33] I mean intermittent fasting is a very powerful tool. I mean, you know, you can, you can go into this, you can go into this metabolic state called autophagy where you actually clean out old proteins. It has some anti cancer benefits. So I've done fasts for as long as like two and three days. And you know, I fast pretty much every day. I eat like a meal and a half a day and that and you know, really focusing on sleep. Like you need, your eyes need to see sunlight in the morning and your eyes need to see the sunset to properly set your circadian clock. And you know, these, these little tweaks to just how you live your life and living a life that's more imbalance with nature and honoring that we are a physical organism first that is like it really goes a long way toward helping you feel well.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:18] Right.

Dave Biesinger [01:14:19] And have energy.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:20] Beautiful. Beautiful. Should we do a quick check in with Carah? How you doing over there? How are things going in the comments?

Carah Burrell [01:14:27] Crying. I'd rather not talk. A lot of the people in the comments are saying I just threw up a bunch of comments on the screen as well. People that needed to hear this today and other people who have been on the other side of the spouse that kind of divorced them and that things have all kind of worked out in the end. So everyone's really loving this discussion. Loving you, Dave. I am as well. So I'm feeling some feelings that like

John Dehlin [01:14:47] what can you share about your feelings that they're there.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:51] Yeah. Thanks Carol.

John Dehlin [01:14:54] Anyway.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:54] Yes. I mean one thing. Okay. I'm going to just zip back and then zip forward. One thing that I do think is so powerful about you mentioning your story with your wife or your ex wife. With Amy.

Carah Burrell [01:15:08] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:08] Let her be.

Dave Biesinger [01:15:09] Yeah. She's a human. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:10] With Amy is just, you know, that there's an initial pain point in the change of love. Right. But also and that your children had a point of view for, for a time that you know, may or may have been, I would imagine hard for you, you and you didn't see them as much and that we, we go through these transitions and also that they're oftentimes not there to stay. Yes, right. That, that on the other side of that, because of who you are and because of you deciding to save yourself and also be honest and integrate yourself, you had those relationships with your children that you hadn't had did come come to fruition. And I think that's. That is an ultimately hope inspiring, validating thing for people.

Dave Biesinger [01:16:03] Absolutely, I agree. And you know, I feel so fortunate. Like, things, things have gone. Things have gone well, you know, like life is good and it's not always good. Like, like there's, there's actually so we naturally as human beings, like, we go through cycles of, of ups and downs, you know, and I think, you know, in my past kind of, whether, whether it was video gaming or smoking, I wanted to blunt the down. But really feeling the down and being comfortable with like melancholy and challenges and really letting those things like, settle in, that is what, that is what sets us up for the highs too. And so sometimes when we try to just endlessly escape in ups, of course we end up with, with distorted behavior addictions, you know, because we, we don't ever let ourselves come back down again and return to homeostasis. And so.

John Dehlin [01:17:00] Or we numb, I think you're saying, are we numb the lows.

Dave Biesinger [01:17:03] We numb the lows and we chase the highs and we have to chase ever escalating highs in order to feel the same thing. Right. And so just being comfortable, like, you know, I. There's this. There's this song by Cat Stevens. It's Father and so Son. And I remember there was a day like I just kind of laid in the tub and I listened to that song like seven times and I just cried because I didn't. I had to let my son go in order to ever have a relationship with him, you know, and it was really hard. It was really hard to let him go. And I didn't. There's no guarantee that it's going to work out okay for some people out there. They may have let people go out of their lives and they may never return. Like, there's no guarantees and life doesn't actually owe us, us anything.

John Dehlin [01:17:48] Can I, can I just. As an observer of your life, as your friend, can I just say during that time now, first of all, when you and Amy split, you were best friends. It wasn't like this acrimonious. No, you know, fighting where it unravels and then it blows up and then it's over. It's like you're watching. This is how I observed it. It's like you and Amy were watching the clock. It's like, well, we're gonna love each other up until the very minute that this ends, because we still love each other.

John Dehlin [01:18:17] And so it was like. It was like the parting of best friends that just knew that again, as you've already said, it was going to be healthier to live apart. Kind of conscious, uncoupling idea for the betterment of all. But then when it came to talking about the kids, Amy's awesome. But I mean, she, you know, was and probably still is a very orthodox believer. And my sense was. And I'm not trying to speak for her, was just that, like, for her being able to have a strong influence on the kids, religiosity was just very important to her. And this is where many, let's just say divorces or divorce settlements can become very acrimonious because there's this battle over custody.

John Dehlin [01:19:01] And when you told me you were just letting go of that and giving her full custody, in my mind, my immediate reaction was like, whoa, don't do that. But then I. I thought about this concept I learned through acceptance and commitment therapy or. Or secular Buddhism called dropping the rope. You can pull on that rope against the monster, and the monster just pulls back, and so you pull harder, and then the monster pulls harder back. And all that happens is your hands get bloody, your hands get calloused, both sides get exhausted and carnage. You know, this is every divorce I've ever heard of where just you ruin it, you ruin your friendship, you ruin the relationship, you spend a gazoodal amounts of money, the lawyers win, and the kids get to watch their parents relationship go up and smoke.

John Dehlin [01:19:47] And then. And then it's just lose, lose, lose for everyone. And I thought it was such a masterful move. Not that Amy was being a bad actor. She was not. Yeah.

Dave Biesinger [01:19:57] If we could tweak the metaphor and just say, instead of a monster on the other end, I had a goddess on the other end of the rope. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:20:02] Yes, yes, yes. I wasn't saying. I wasn't saying Amy was the monster on the other end. Thank you for the correction.

Dave Biesinger [01:20:07] Sorry.

John Dehlin [01:20:08] It was. You were. It was this idea of the other. The other side of the rope being the battle for the children.

Dave Biesinger [01:20:15] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:20:16] The battle for the children.

Dave Biesinger [01:20:17] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:20:18] And you're just like, I'm not gonna. I'm gonna drop the rope in terms of, like, us trying to decide the future of the children. Amy, I'm gonna trust you. It was more of act of love and trust.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:29] Gonna say that. That's what's clear. To me, yes. Is that. It's that through this difference that emerges is that you have a type of connection with Amy still. You still have a sense of love and regard, and she does for you. And in that moment, you decided to make an act of trust in her process.

Dave Biesinger [01:20:52] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:53] She may not have been there yet, but you were kind of saying in good faith. Right. Is that right?

Dave Biesinger [01:20:58] It's 100% right. And, like, look, she warned me that we had some differences that may threaten our marriage before we got married. She told me before we entered that contract of marriage that she wanted to raise her kids in the church. And so a part of that was just me honoring, like, what she gave her life to. Like, she gave her whole life to up to be a mom and to have my kids. And, like, I really wanted her to have a chance to just be able to do it her way, you know, And. And. And that was part of why I just let go of that rope, you know, I. I felt like she deserved it and. And I did trust her with it.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:39] Yeah. And that's. That love and regard is your. Your thinking of her. You're feeling for her story, and you can see her story. Story as at the same time that you're seeing yours. Something. Yeah, something.

Dave Biesinger [01:21:54] And I think. I think another thing that I had to come to realize was just, you know, and this is in the fifth agreement, if anyone has read that. So there's the four agreements, and then there's the fifth agreement.

Dave Biesinger [01:22:02] Okay, perfect. It's great books. So. So you just come to realize that, like, everybody. Everybody feels like the hero of their own story. But I think what. What I came to realize at that time was, like, there are no heroes. There are no villains. Like, all of us are just really complicated people, and we have moments of heroism, and maybe we have moments of infamy. But like. Like, we're whole, complicated beings, and no one is, you know, no one is above.

Dave Biesinger [01:22:32] No one is above doing things that are, you know, that you wouldn't be proud of. Like, I've done them many times, you know, that's. But. But it's the shame that we give ourselves rather than the learning. Like, the shame clouds the picture because really, if you look at it like it's all just incoming data, when you do something that doesn't have the result you were looking for, rather than shaming yourself or treating yourself like you're suddenly the villain where you used to be the hero, just learning, like, just observing what's happening and then changing your behavior as you can just do your best.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:06] Yeah. Neutralize it instead of. Of personalized.

Dave Biesinger [01:23:11] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:12] Yeah. Okay. Can I ask. I want to kind of go back for a minute, because what I'm realizing is, you know, when we looked at kind of my story and loss and grief, it kind of showed up in a way that it was kind of all at once. Right. But to me, it feels like you're having. You're having more of pieces of grief and loss throughout your story. What is your relationship with grief and loss? Loss? And how. How do you show up for it and process it?

Dave Biesinger [01:23:42] I. I felt deep and profound senses of grief and loss as a child because of. Because of trauma and because of abuse. And that was painful. And I know that, like, look, there are people in this world who are handed AK47s when they're, like, 11 years old. Like, I know that my trauma probably. It's not like, on the scale of trauma, I probably have tons of privilege.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:07] We don't compare.

Dave Biesinger [01:24:08] Okay, so. But my trauma was real to me. Yes, it was real to me, and it was hard for me, and it was painful, Very painful. And I, you know, as Eckhart Tolle talks about, which we've both read, like, pain can awaken us, right? Because to continue to live in pain is not always an option for us. And I do think that. That my relationship to grief and to sorrow really led me to my meditation practice about 10 years ago. And that's when I realized, like, so. So because of the trauma of my childhood, I felt like I was living in a world where I couldn't trust people.

Dave Biesinger [01:24:47] And so that was kind of the core script I was running. And I had to, like, remodel my brain to believe, truly believe deep down that I live in a safe world, that people can be trusted, that I can be trusted. And so as I have kind of flipped around and it affects even, like, your. Like your neurotransmitter balance and all of these things. Like, it affects you biologically. When you feel like this is a peaceful, safe world and I can attach to others securely, it totally changes the game. So before I was able to, like, securely attach and when I felt like I was living in a dangerous world world, like, I feel like.

Dave Biesinger [01:25:28] I feel like pain was a much more constant friend. And I feel like there were moments when I would create hell on earth for myself, you know, where I would just get twisted into thoughts and speculation about the future and fears. And rather than just being present and being able to recognize, like, these thoughts aren't actually that useful. They're not really doing very much for me, but like when I was in a place before I could let that stuff go, I felt, I would say, like a lot more instances of pain in my life and a lot of it was self generated. But once I was able to just kind of slowly, gently convince myself that this was a safe world and that I could let go of thought patterns that weren't serving me, then I still feel like pain.

Dave Biesinger [01:26:11] I still feel grief. Like I feel, I felt a tremendous amount of grief at the end of that relationship or at the prospect of losing my children. But when, then I feel like when you can be present with that grief and that pain and just kind of like let it wash over you and not have to tell yourself a big story about what it means, about what it explains about you, or about what it means about the future. You can just like feel it.

Dave Biesinger [01:26:39] It's still painful, but it's not as painful and it doesn't last as long. And rather than like fighting those emotions, just letting them wash through you. And I know I'm probably regurgitating what many. I think everybody in this room probably knows this already, but it was like a very powerful discovery for me. And that came through reading books.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:57] Yeah, absolutely. And it's a powerful thing to actually feel yourself. That experience of here it comes, we don't block it. We don't. We just allow, allow, allow. And then you discover that, that it can wash through it reminds me a little bit, bit what you're describing. It reminds me a little bit of the second arrow, John. Just this idea of, yes, there's pain in life and that's the first arrow, but the stories that we tell about the first arrow and how we resist it or what we put our thoughts on or. Right. That that becomes a second arrow, a self inflicted second arrow. And then now we're in like double suffering, suffering.

John Dehlin [01:27:43] And all credit goes to no Rochetta and Secular Buddhism podcast that taught us that.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:48] That's right.

John Dehlin [01:27:49] We'll include that in the show notes. And I guess all credit goes to Buddha for that one in the end.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:55] That's right.

John Dehlin [01:27:56] If Buddha ever existed. Yeah.

Rebuilding Life and Finding New Purpose

Margi Dehlin [01:27:58] So you've mentioned a few resources as we've kind of that were important to you rebuilding. Are there any other books or things that were really pivotal ideas? What? Psilocybin. That was something that was, I feel like something that you mentioned that was important. Meditation. Any other things that you would want to kind of set apart as, hey, here are some resources that were really helpful to me.

Dave Biesinger [01:28:21] Yeah. You know, I have one More. And it's kind of a recent one I've discovered. So, you know, as we get to this place of presence, I think that we can start to view, like, all thoughts are the enemy. Like, I just always have to be present. And if I'm thinking a thought, you know, I'm not being present. But, like, the truth of it is we need to think. Like, we need our ego. Like, we need to be able to, like, think things through and plan. And so I feel like I've. I've. I'm. This is just new to me, but I feel like I'm. I'm creating like a more helpful relationship with the planner part of myself, you know, where I can kind of make plans, hold them loosely, and I can kind of like, architect my time so that I spend my time doing things that are calculated to bring me moments of meaning and purpose and connection.

Dave Biesinger [01:29:07] Right. And so whether that's showing up for myself, whether that's like, further furthering projects that I'm working on, you know, like, I'm in the middle of. I'm in the middle of writing a book and, you know, I'm writing a book with Christian Moore, and it's on how to get along with anyone and like, no one is. Like, it doesn't have like a deadline. It doesn't have, like, a certain time that it has to be done. But, like, I show up for that book every day and I write at least for an hour or two every single day. Like, no one makes me do that. But being able to choose, like, habits and little activities every day that that, like, build toward the kind of life that that deeper part of ourselves imagines for ourselves and, like, integrating the deep intuitive sense of me with the thinking part of me and like, kind of not getting the cart in front of the horse.

Dave Biesinger [01:29:52] So, like, sometimes the thinker brain thinks it knows it all, but there's like a deeper part of me that really sees the big picture and that's the part that I want to be in charge, you know, so there's a. There's another book by Ian McGilchrist. He talks about. It's. It's called the Master and His Emissary. And he talks about some of the. Some of the problems with our mod world are that we allow that this, this quantified kind of left brain type thinking that doesn't have the whole picture, but understands parts and pieces really well.

Dave Biesinger [01:30:22] We let that kind of thinking dominate our behavior and our activities. And that shows up in a personal life. It also shows up at scale when, you know, where we have, like, all these masks just distributed around the world like they're falling into oceans, right? Like, we're not seeing the whole picture, right. If we want to take care of the planet and each other and ourselves, like, we can't just focus on little parts and pieces. We have to be able to see the whole picture and understand what it means. And so, according to Ian McGilchrist research, that the part of us that has a picture of that whole meaning is what.

Dave Biesinger [01:30:54] You know, when I was a kid reading Carl Jung, we would have called like, that. That archetypal self, right? Like that. Like those deep archetypes that reside within the psyche or the unconscious mind. And so. So trying to allow that part of myself to guide my actions through, like, a series of, like, planning and habits has really helped me to just have more moments that bring me meaning and purpose in my daily life.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:21] Right, right.

Dave Biesinger [01:31:22] Sorry, that was a rant.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:23] No, that makes. So that makes sense. And that kind of reminds me of sort of this sense of an integrated self and almost like connecting to your values and that thing that you really valued about Mormonism originally, right? That's that structure. That structure that, that now you have actually recreated that inside yourself in a way that is allowing you now to feel that sense of stability and focus and. And intentionality. Right?

Dave Biesinger [01:31:53] Exactly, exactly. And that's like how we make our own dreams come true. You know, first of all, we have to have dreams worth reaching, dreaming, and then we have to, like, we have to, like, take all the steps that it. That it takes on a daily basis to. To make those things show up in the world, you know, And I don't have, like, a super fixed picture of what that looks like, but I know it includes, like, moments of moments of beautiful connection with other human beings, right? It includes, like, moments where I discover new things, you know, it includes moments where I feel, like, a sense of satisfaction with, with my career and my, like, work output.

Dave Biesinger [01:32:28] It comes from, like, showing up for people who need me and being there for others, just as so many were there for me, you know, and just crafting a life, like, intentionally where I can just do that as much as possible. That's where I find my sense of meaning now. And it feels.

Dave Biesinger [01:32:44] It feels like I'm walking around with a sense of, you know, you talk about that, like, sense of home, right? Like, I walk around with that everywhere I go. So even if I move places or things change and life circumstances change and careers change, like, I feel like I have this inner sense of home. That I just carry around with me. And that is. That is beautiful.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:08] That is beautiful. And it is such, like the perfect circle tying back to the thing that you started out really longing for and searching for. That's really, really beautiful. So can I ask, you kind of did this in generality, but I'm going to ask just because I'm really curious. Moments of rebuilding. What are some moments you can share that felt like. Like rebuilding moments for you where you knew, okay, you know, these are. These are victories. These are some victories for myself. It sounds. Sounds like that's one, right? Rebuilding a sense of home. Or would it even. It wouldn't even be rebuilding. It would almost be like building, rediscovering.

Dave Biesinger [01:33:52] I mean, it's like when I was a kid, I had an empty plot of land, and then by being able to be more structured, I built a house on that piece of land. And now I feel like I have a mobile home. I don't know this. I'm stretching this analogy to breaking, but I have, like a little home I can carry around anywhere I go.

Dave Biesinger [01:34:09] I would say the pivotal moments of rebuilding would be like when I really got serious about my health. Health, you know, coming. Coming out of, you know, having a back surgery and being overweight. Like, that was a pivotal moment for me. And that has been just a long, slow journey, but it's also had, like, great milestones. Like, I remember the first time I could do a ring muscle up, you know, like a strict ring muscle up. That was amazing, you know, or. Or the first time that I would, like, really get myself into a yoga pose and feel fully embodied in that pose. Like, so there are so many little beautiful moments, you know, But I think, I think many of those, like, moments of rebuilding or milestones are when I can. Or when I can just show up, you know, I know I'm. I know I'm on the right course when I can show up.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:55] Yeah.

Dave Biesinger [01:34:55] You know.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:56] Yep.

Dave Biesinger [01:34:57] That's kind of my ultimate barometer, is like, am I. Can I just be authentic? Can I just be real with me and with others? That's when I know I'm on the right track. So I don't know if that answers your question. I mean, you're asking about moments of rebuilding. Maybe if there are more specifics that you. That you want to dive into, I'm happy to answer.

John Dehlin [01:35:13] But

Margi Dehlin [01:35:15] we could look at, you know. Yeah, I feel like you've kind of answered and shared enough around that. Are there any particular challenges that you've come across with rebuilding?

Dave Biesinger [01:35:27] Like, you Say, I mean, I have a recurring pain. I have recurring pain in my back, you know, for sure. And I have, I have times when, like, just my fear gets the best of me, you know, I have times when, you know, I kind of. I backslide a bit. Little bit. You know, and I'm. And I don't take care of myself as well. Right. But I, rather than shaming myself, I just go, just get back on the horse, you know, just keep going. It's okay. You're generally going in the right direction. You don't need to feel it. We don't need to be perfect. You know, like, like the fourth agreement is always do your best.

Dave Biesinger [01:35:59] And I would. I kind of. I kind of struggle with that one. Yeah, I got to kind of tweak that one because I just, I just like to say just, Just do your best, like, about as much as you can. And maybe someday I'll be at the point where I'm always doing my best.

John Dehlin [01:36:11] But do your. Do your best to do your best.

Dave Biesinger [01:36:13] Yeah. Do your best to do your best.

John Dehlin [01:36:14] There you go.

Dave Biesinger [01:36:15] Do your best to do your best to do your best.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:17] I don't know. It's recursive in thinking about meaning and purpose specifically, just because that's kind of what we've kind of followed through. How, how, how does that, what does it look like now, meaning and purpose? What does it mean to you now? And how does it show up differently than it has in the past? If we're talking about the good life. Right. What does that mean? What does it look like today?

Dave Biesinger [01:36:47] I think that for a long time I was, like, seeking something I didn't have to find meaning and purpose. And I think the most powerful idea I've ever come across is just that, like, I'm finding it right, right now, right here with you, Margi. Like, it's so beautiful to be here with you. And it's. So. Be this the first time. Look, I'm. I'm a documentary filmmaker. I'm used to asking all the questions. And so to have to sit. I've never, I actually, I've actually never done this before, so I've never sat in the hot seat and just answered all the questions. And it's. And it's awesome.

Dave Biesinger [01:37:19] It's amazing. It's beautiful. Like, I'm finding it right now. Like, and, and I, I would say it's more of just a feeling like life. Life doesn't have to get to the end point to mean something. Something, you know, you don't have to have, like, this reward afterward. And there it doesn't have to be like in retirement, you know, Then I'll finally have the time to do the things I've always wanted to do. Like, life feels to me anyway, like it's super worth living just right here, right now, every single day. And I have little moments. Sometimes they're in nature, sometimes they're in just like quiet moments.

Dave Biesinger [01:37:52] Sometimes it's just something you learn where it's just like this, aha, light goes on, on, you know, or. Or being out nature and feeling like, connected to like everything around you and realizing both how small you are and how grand this all is. Like that. That is where I find my sense of meaning and purpose. It's packaged within the unit of every single day and moment by like a moment by moment unfolding of that.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:15] Would you kind of say it's like kind of showing up for what is? Yes, like that.

Dave Biesinger [01:38:21] And just trying to see it for what it is, is and not. And that's part of where it was really helpful for me to like, peel back, you know, the single paradigm thinking is. I feel like. I feel like that creates some distance between myself and reality. When I have to fit everything into a specific lens and I can only see it through one paradigm, then I create distance between myself and reality because I have to fit it into a thought. You don't have to fit it into a story. Versus just like being open to what it is is, you know, just. Just letting it show you what it is right now and paying attention to it. That is like the most beautiful experience to me.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:00] Yeah. Thank you, Dave.

Dave Biesinger [01:39:03] Oh, thank you, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:06] John, Carah. Anyone have any questions, thoughts at this point?

Life After Divorce, Dating, and Community Farewell

John Dehlin [01:39:12] You may or may not want to address this. This has been just perfect. And that's kind of a perfect ending. But I still want to end ask. You know, some people after a divorce, you know, they face the prospects of dating again. It is okay and even encouraged if you just want to say, that's something I don't want to talk about, or if you want to talk about dating at all. For those who might feel hopeless or anxious or whatever about, you know, finding companionship after divorce. As a post Mormon, is there anything you want to share about that?

Dave Biesinger [01:39:47] You bet.

John Dehlin [01:39:47] No pressure.

Dave Biesinger [01:39:48] No, you bet. So I have a beautiful human being in my life. Our friend Holly Ashton Wallen. She's like the most amazing soul and I was really fortunate to meet her. And, you know, I'm glad you asked that question because I would be really remiss to discuss my progress in the last year and not include that beautiful soul in. Because she has been there for me. Like, she has seen me and she has given me, like, soul confidence. And, like, I don't know if I have any advice. Like, I can't say, like, I advise you to just meet the most amazing human you'll ever meet in your life and then, you know, become securely attached to them and, you know, have a beautiful love story together. Like, I don't know. I don't know if that's actionable advice. I just feel lucky, like, because Holly's taken.

John Dehlin [01:40:41] At least for now.

Dave Biesinger [01:40:42] At least for now, right? Maybe after this shoot, rethink that. But, like, I. I do think. I mean, we as humans, like, we pair bond, right? And we, like, like, bonding with another human being and going really deep with one other human being and really being fully vulnerable and fully, like, and securely attaching to another human being is a really important part of our personal development.

Dave Biesinger [01:41:08] And it is. It is one thing to see ourselves, and it's another thing to fully trust someone and see how they see you. And that's important information. I know. You know, sometimes we say, like, well, I don't care what anybody thinks. And I'm like, okay, so you're a psychopath. Then, like, you know, like, of course we do, and we should, because we don't just live in a world by ourselves. Ourselves, like, we live in a world with other people, and we need to care a little bit. And when you have someone who is really close to you who can. Who can both see you and challenge you and, like, ask you questions, but, you know, it's coming from a good place, like, that is one of the best gifts that we can give to each other is to like.

Dave Biesinger [01:41:47] And I feel fortunate because, you know, Holly and I both share a passion for yoga. You know, we both share a passion for meditation. Like, I just kind of randomly. Or, you know, maybe there was. Maybe there was some fate. Who knows about any of that stuff? But the fact that I met someone who was on such a parallel journey to me and the fact that we could, like, just show up for each other throughout that journey as we were, like, discovering, like, ourselves and, like, rebuilding our lives, like, I feel so grateful. Like, so grateful for that.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:19] So beautiful. It's beautiful. Yeah. Carah, do you have anything you want to ask or say at this point?

Carah Burrell [01:42:30] Let me just read a super chat from Kelly Lang, our old friend.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:34] Kelly, we love you.

Carah Burrell [01:42:35] Sent in a super chat and said, thank you, Margi, for this new series. Your opening episode last week was Our favorite of all Mormon stories. And that says a lot. Love you, you back, Lang, entire family. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:51] Beautiful. One thing that I just love, love, love about your story is just the full circle idea of where you start and then kind of where we are here and that idea of, you know, it's kind of a coming home a little bit for you too, for sure. And also I love how, how on many levels, you have these moments of just acute awareness of your wounds coming up in your story and in your life, and that how you're rebuilding is about you really meeting those and healing those in creating this new experience of life and love and what it means to just sort of be alive in a moment. Moment. And it's just a beautiful, beautiful thing to witness.

Dave Biesinger [01:43:48] It's a beautiful thing to witness in you too, you know, and we've. We've gone for little walks around the neighborhood and, you know, your ability to just like, ask people deep questions and listen to the answers and be present with them is a gift. And I agree with. Was it Kelly Lang, My favorite Mormon stories episode before that one, it was the one where you talked about baptizing women. Winston. And now this one was mine. It was beautiful.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:14] Thank you.

Dave Biesinger [01:44:15] Thank you for letting me come on here.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:16] Yes. Thank you for being here. And thank you for being, being willing to share your thrive story.

Dave Biesinger [01:44:22] Yay.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:22] It's a beautiful thing.

Dave Biesinger [01:44:24] Thrive story number two.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:25] That's right.

John Dehlin [01:44:27] So. And I'll just say that I was thinking, whoa, that's before you even said that, Margi. I was thinking, like, well, that's two coming home stories in a row. Like, well, that's good. And then I thought, wait a minute. If you study Joseph Campbell, Campbell, who loved Young, by the way, in his book Hero of a Thousand Faces or

Dave Biesinger [01:44:45] whatever it is, you'll find collected writings.

John Dehlin [01:44:47] Journey. The hero's journey is you set off on the journey, and the ultimate destination of the hero's journey is coming home to yourself. That is the hero's journey.

Dave Biesinger [01:44:57] And. And the hero's journey. And this often gets left out. It's bringing the boon back to your community, and that's what we're doing here. It's one thing to come home to yourself, but, like, what we get to do. Space is like, bring back what we learned and share it with our community.

John Dehlin [01:45:15] And.

Dave Biesinger [01:45:15] And that is like a super important part of that hero's journey. But I love that you quoted that, John. That was beautiful.

Margi Dehlin [01:45:19] Is the sharing. And I love this too, because I think, I wonder. And we'll see. We'll See as this series continues. But I wonder if on a level, for each area that, you know, your area was finding purpose and meaning and my area, on a level was kind of finding my own voice. Right. That all these areas can have an element of coming home to them and that's something that we may find is in common. I guess we'll see. We'll see about that. But it has been a gift to witness your Thrive story today. So thank you for sharing it and thank you all for being part of it today. So until next time, we will see you and happy Thrive driving.

John Dehlin [01:46:05] Thanks, Dave.

Dave Biesinger [01:46:06] David, brother, love you too.

John Dehlin [01:46:08] Yeah.

Dave Biesinger [01:46:09] Oh, you guys are the best.

John Dehlin [01:46:10] Yeah. Margi, I love having you in the first chair. Thanks for doing this. I. I'm much more comfortable here than I am there. I hope you. I think you're. You're amazing. So how are you feeling? Do you feel good?

Margi Dehlin [01:46:23] Yeah, I feel good.

John Dehlin [01:46:25] Good.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:26] A gift to be here. So.

John Dehlin [01:46:27] All right. Kind. Carrie, you want to do the. Kind of like the final honors and letting people know how to follow up,

Carah Burrell [01:46:34] how to follow up with giving donations

John Dehlin [01:46:38] to the podcast, all the support stuff.

Carah Burrell [01:46:40] Yeah. Thanks, everyone, for your support. Mormon Stories has had the best year ever, and we're so grateful to have Margi as a part of the team making content. And John Larsen, Simon Southerton. Who else am I missing?

John Dehlin [01:46:52] That's good.

Carah Burrell [01:46:53] That's it. So we have a lot more content coming. So if you like this content and want to keep this post podcast going, please go to MormonStories.org and click on the donate button. You can donate either once or set it up for a monthly donation. And we really, really appreciate it. If it's not financially feasible for you to do that, that's totally okay, too. But we love our donors, our viewers. If you can just help this podcast out by sharing it, liking it on TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, YouTube. Sharing it, liking it across all the platforms. And we love when people can also tune in live and be a part of the chat. And we just love this community that we've built. And are there any other announcements? Are you. Do you have any other spaces available for, like, the. The workshops that are going on? Is there anything else you want to announce?

John Dehlin [01:47:36] Yeah, I mean, we. We did announce a series of six workshops, five within Utah and then one online faith crisis kind of support groups, and they're almost all full. So you can go to mormonstories.org events for now or in the future to see what, what events. We're doing our best to. To create events to provide people support through their journeys. So really excited about that. We were do we're doing St. George, Provo, Holiday, Lehigh and Bountiful and then we're doing one on on Live. And if if these can become sustainable, we'll just we'll keep doing it. But we're really grateful to be partnering with people in the community. Also. Thrive for Women is coming up. I believe it's April 2nd. Thrive is a separate organization, but we we love Thrive and we support it. So check out and if you're looking for community beyond religion, you can go to thrivebeyondreligion.com and lots of communities there.

Carah Burrell [01:48:38] And if you have any thoughts, comments, comments, questions about the podcast, if you know somebody like Margi's been saying that could be nominated for one of these people that you think is doing really well and thriving in a different area, you can nominate them. We'll have the link of where you that form is in the show notes below. Otherwise, the email for Mormon stories is mormonstories gmail.com if you want to send us your feedback there. And we love you all so much. Thanks for tuning in.

Margi Dehlin [01:49:07] Thank you everyone.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.