Welcome and Mormon Scoops Introduction

Carah Burrell [00:00:03] Welcome to Mormon Scoops with your Mormon Scoops anchor, John de Lynn and your other Mormon Scoops co anchor Carah Brell. Hi everyone. Welcome to Mormon Scoops. The date is February 15, 2022 and we are bringing you some hot tea and toasts. I just wish I could rename the program because the church might be toast and we're here to bring you the tea. So if you have questions on your mind, like what is the pervasiveness of the Mormon faith crisis right now within LDS stakes and wards? What is the rise of the conservative fundamentalists, the Trumpsters, the preppers, the Cunanon, the Anivaxxers? And what is going on with how women feel in the church? Are they staying? Are they leaving? What's the attempt to involve more women in the church post Covid apathy. We all know it. We are all here because of it. So we're going to talk about, talk about the PIMO Mormons, the ones that are physically and mentally out, and the decline of Mormon youth programs that have seen a dramatic decrease in Mormon Church service. That's how we have some some tea to share. We really, really do so. And also if you're wondering what's up with all those temples that President Nelson is announcing, are they really going to be built? What's going on with the temple department? Are they actually in chaos or is everything running according to plan because the church is led by prophet seers and revelators? We're going to get into that tonight on this episode of Mormon Scoops. Taking live call ins at the end of the program. John, why don't you go ahead and tell us how people are going to call in and what that's going to look like.

John Dehlin [00:01:42] Wow, that was a wonderful intro.

John Dehlin [00:01:43] Nice job. Care Burrell hi, I'm John and it's

John Dehlin [00:01:46] so fun to have you here for Mormon Scoops.

John Dehlin [00:01:49] And yeah, yeah, we tried something last week where we would take Collins video call ins and we're going to do that towards the middle of the show

John Dehlin [00:01:58] once we kind of do our normal presentation.

John Dehlin [00:02:00] So what we'll do is we'll share the link to join kind of midway through the show. If you're on a desktop, Chrome browser is your best bet. Make sure you enable, whether on your mobile phone or your desktop, both the

John Dehlin [00:02:13] camera and the microphone and we'll take

John Dehlin [00:02:16] some callers mid show on video.

John Dehlin [00:02:18] How does that sound?

Carah Burrell [00:02:19] It sounds great. And also don't forget about super chats. We're going to announce them at the top of the show. It's a Great way that you want to support my purchase of more Red Bull and having this type of energetic start to the show. Super Chat is a great way to donate to the podcast is a little symbol with a dollar sign at the bottom of YouTube. Press that, send us a couple bucks and we'll try to highlight your comment on the show.

John Dehlin [00:02:41] I mean, I think it's a legitimate question.

John Dehlin [00:02:43] Do we want Carah to have more Red Bull? I mean, is that. Do we want that? Do we not want that? It's fair.

Carah Burrell [00:02:49] Yeah. Only because we did such a bomb episode today with Margi. I was making me a little bit quiet and have inner solitude. Now I'm ready to break out of that. And we're really to, like I said, spill some tea right now.

John Dehlin [00:03:02] Absolutely.

Carah Burrell [00:03:02] Spill some Red Bull.

John Dehlin [00:03:04] And we have some super, super important announcements that we're gonna save to the

John Dehlin [00:03:07] end of the show.

John Dehlin [00:03:07] So please stay to the very end for those announcements. All right.

Carah Burrell [00:03:10] Your life will be changed. You'll be grateful that you did.

John Dehlin [00:03:12] Absolutely. So should we get going?

Carah Burrell [00:03:14] Let's do it.

Recent News: Brad Wilcox Controversy

John Dehlin [00:03:15] All right, so what we wanna do with Mormon scoops is start with kind of a few stories that are in the news. And the first story that's in the news that we think is super important,

John Dehlin [00:03:30] kind of important, many of that.

John Dehlin [00:03:34] Brad Wilcox had a bit of a moment last week.

John Dehlin [00:03:37] We kind of had Mormon Brad Wilcox week.

Guest [00:03:40] Remember that?

John Dehlin [00:03:40] On Mormon Stories podcast, we stumbled on a pretty fun, amazing tick tock that was a response to the Brad Wilcox video. And in our sort of short in the news section, we thought we would highlight this video.

John Dehlin [00:03:55] So here it is, everybody good?

▶ Video Clip 1

Video Clip 1 [00:03:58] How come the blacks didn't get the priesthood until 1978? What's up with that, Brother Wilcox?

Video Clip 1 [00:04:03] What?

Video Clip 1 [00:04:04] Brigham Young was a jerk. Members of the church were prejudiced.

Video Clip 1 [00:04:07] That's the bare minimum.

Video Clip 1 [00:04:10] Maybe we're asking the wrong question. What it is, maybe instead of saying why did the blacks have to wait until 1978? Maybe what we should be asking is why did the whites.

Video Clip 1 [00:04:23] Okay.

Video Clip 1 [00:04:25] Have to wait until 18? I'm sorry, negative.

Carah Burrell [00:04:30] So you could either watch our three and a half hour Mormon stories episode or you could just watch that 30 second tick tock and it's. That gives you everything you need to know.

John Dehlin [00:04:38] And I think it's important to mention. Yeah, I think it's important to mention who. Who these people are. So check out the Black Menaces. That is their name on TikTok. Subscribe to their channel. It looks like it might be African

John Dehlin [00:04:53] American BYU students that have their own TikTok.

John Dehlin [00:04:56] Channel, so I could be wrong about that. I don't think I am. But shout out to the black menaces

John Dehlin [00:05:02] for a really fun response to the Brad Wilcox video.

John Dehlin [00:05:06] Okay. Next thing in the news is, as you all know, we covered Brad Wilcox and his presentation to the Alpine Tri State fireside last week caused quite a stir. Deseret, Salt Lake Tribune and others have covered that. Brad Wilcox apologized twice. He apologized first on Facebook and then later in a fireside that went on in Canada. Brad Wilcox apologized there as well. And we just thought it would be fun to play a quick little clip of Brad's apology.

Carah Burrell [00:05:45] How many of you watched that entire fireside to see what was going to happen?

John Dehlin [00:05:49] I sure did.

Carah Burrell [00:05:50] They got us. They tricked us.

John Dehlin [00:05:51] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:05:52] I listened to the whole thing and all I got was this. A lousy apology. Just kidding.

John Dehlin [00:05:56] No, but I mean, it was. It's really interesting to see. We, you know, clearly they knew that the world would be watching because why would Brad apologize just to this random

John Dehlin [00:06:07] Canada staker area, you know, when it's a global apology?

John Dehlin [00:06:11] So it really was a staged global apology that Brad, you know, I'm sure he would have coordinated with church headquarters. I think he said that Elder Christopherson

John Dehlin [00:06:22] was kind of outside the room.

John Dehlin [00:06:24] We don't know. But if it's true that it was sort of a stage coordinated apology, it was interesting that he had his wife kind of in the background there. And I'm just going to go ahead and play the apology really quick.

Carah Burrell [00:06:38] Nice to see you, Debbie. Nice to put a face with the Facebook comment.

John Dehlin [00:06:41] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And.

John Dehlin [00:06:44] And I just thought this little comment in the Trip article, it says Corbett, a black Latter Day Saint, was present for Sunday's event. So for whatever reason, they felt like

John Dehlin [00:06:54] it'd be really important to have an

John Dehlin [00:06:55] African American or a black Latter Day Saint join the apology. And he actually makes an appearance. I thought it was interesting, Carah, that he makes Brother Corbett makes an appearance

John Dehlin [00:07:06] during the apology, and we can talk about whether that was coordinated or not.

John Dehlin [00:07:10] But here is the apology

Guest [00:07:14] now. This has been a hard week for me. We're going to be speaking tonight about trusting in the Lord. And this has been one of those weeks when I have needed to trust in the Lord. Some of you may have heard about a talk I gave last Sunday night. Now, it wasn't the first time that I've given that talk, and it wasn't the first time I've used the ideas I shared or the line of reasoning that I used to try to address some difficult topics in the past. I failed to see how my comments could be seen as insensitive and hurtful. And I'm very grateful for friends, friends like Brother Corbett, who have helped me and corrected me and taught me. Once again, I apologize. And I'm grateful more than ever for the atonement of Jesus Christ, which allows us to trust in the Lord.

John Dehlin [00:08:18] What'd you think, Carah? Would you think of that announcement?

Carah Burrell [00:08:23] What did he say? That this talk is about trusting in the Lord more. And you got to think for a guy who said that same speech so many times as we have come to understand, that he was probably trusting in the Lord and trusting in the Spirit all of the times that he gave that talk then, and it's only when it was publicized and out that he realized that he maybe. What do you. What did you realize, Brad? Did you realize maybe you shouldn't trust in the Lord more? Or do you have to trust in the Lord more now because you're being called out for being one of his servants? I don't understand what he means by trusting in the Lord more now than ever. Do you?

John Dehlin [00:08:57] No. I mean, that was the theme of.

John Dehlin [00:08:59] Of the entire episode or of the entire fireside, and it was interesting.

Carah Burrell [00:09:03] What is having. Saying racist things for, like, years and years.

Guest [00:09:06] What.

Carah Burrell [00:09:07] How does that have to do with trusting in the Lord, is my question, though.

John Dehlin [00:09:09] Yeah, I mean, I. I think that

John Dehlin [00:09:12] was just the theme of the fireside, and he used it. He kind of invoked that theme during his apology. That's. That's the way I understood it.

John Dehlin [00:09:20] I just thought it was interesting. Well, it was interesting that they brought

John Dehlin [00:09:23] on an African American or a black Latter Day Saint and that they actually showed his photo during the apology. I don't know if that was planned.

John Dehlin [00:09:33] I guess one question I still have

John Dehlin [00:09:35] remaining is what about apologies to Christians? What about. What about apologies to atheists or people who leave the church?

Guest [00:09:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:41] What about apologies to women?

John Dehlin [00:09:42] Like, it was.

John Dehlin [00:09:43] If, you know, the race issue was kind of the only one they were super concerned about.

John Dehlin [00:09:48] And then they kind of brought on

John Dehlin [00:09:50] Brother Corbett to kind of, I don't

John Dehlin [00:09:52] know, help make that better as a part of the apology.

John Dehlin [00:09:55] And then.

John Dehlin [00:09:56] And then it was nice that. That Brad passed the mic to Brother Corbett.

Carah Burrell [00:09:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:00] To give the majority of the presentation.

Guest [00:10:02] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:10:03] We'll give props or props for earned. Yeah. The thing that's still not sitting well with me. You guys can tell me what's not sitting well with you. Still is this type of rhetoric around people who leave the church. And I met with a friend today at lunch and she realized after her husband had a faith crisis and she was still taking the kids to church with her non believing husband, she realized my kids are going to learn things at church that's going to make their, them love their dad less. And everybody has a mixed faith family at some point. Not every single Latter Day Saint family has 100% belief in the church. And just this type of rhetoric that pits one family member against another, that they are less than just still really, really bothers me. And it's kind of just this really unfortunate sword that's utilized against people. Instead of a Christian church that builds people up and unifies people, it's saying we've got it, you don't. And that is just the most toxic rhetoric that I, I really wish that the church would disavow that especially you got the race piece. But what about everything else? Still really, really doesn't sit well with me.

John Dehlin [00:11:00] I was, I had a phone call

John Dehlin [00:11:02] with some friends who live in the Alpine stake and this is, I was, I thought it was interesting that this is on the hearts and minds of housewives and husbands and youth all over

John Dehlin [00:11:11] Alpine, which is kind of interesting ground

John Dehlin [00:11:14] zero in many ways for Mormon church wealth and influence.

John Dehlin [00:11:17] Senator Mike Lee lives in Alpine.

John Dehlin [00:11:19] Gerald Lund, you know, who wrote the work in the Glory, lives in Alpine. Like so many prominent and wealthy and powerful Mormons live in the house in the Alpine Highland area.

John Dehlin [00:11:29] We, it turns out that some of these parents were mad at us.

John Dehlin [00:11:32] Carah, I don't know if you know this or if you know why, but

John Dehlin [00:11:34] basically, you know, we called out the fact that where were the adults? Why weren't the adults outraged?

John Dehlin [00:11:42] Who were in the audience? Why didn't they speak up and protest?

John Dehlin [00:11:46] It turns out the adults were asked

John Dehlin [00:11:47] to stay home and that only youth were allowed in the audience or, or the majority of youth.

John Dehlin [00:11:53] Now to the church, to be, to be fair to the church, the reason

John Dehlin [00:11:57] why they did that is, is because they wanted to have as many youth there possible. So they asked the adults to stay home.

John Dehlin [00:12:05] That's fine. But if you're going to be teaching things that could be potentially very problematic to parents, I think the rules of

John Dehlin [00:12:14] informed consent would kind of require that parents be allowed to attend and encouraged to attend with their children. Especially if things are going to be said that are so problematic.

Carah Burrell [00:12:24] Yeah, just ending this idea that if it's taught by a church leader, if it's coming from somebody at church headquarters, that it's, it's okay and it should be okay with parents. Parents deserve to know what their kids are being taught at church instead of being told to stay home.

John Dehlin [00:12:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:36] Yeah. So that's something that the church will have to keep working on and good job Brad Wilcox for the apology. Good job Mormon Church for encouraging the apology. It's still begging the question if, if, if an apology is good enough for Brad, why isn't an apology good enough

John Dehlin [00:12:53] for Russell M. Nelson, for Dallin H. Oaks, Jeffrey R. Holland and others?

John Dehlin [00:12:57] Why are they requiring apologies of kind

John Dehlin [00:12:59] of their mid level management but not offering apologies? Like should Elder Holland have apologized for his musket talk at byu?

John Dehlin [00:13:07] These are questions that kind of remains but you know, we'll deal with those

John Dehlin [00:13:12] in future episodes of Mormon Scoops.

Carah Burrell [00:13:14] Yeah, keep talking about it and we'll see where it goes.

John Dehlin [00:13:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:20] So another, another sort of piece in the news care do you want to read this? This is just we love ex Mormon Reddit. This is just a little screenshot I took from ex mor Mormon Reddit. Apparently Brad Wilcox showed up at a religion class at BYU Idaho today to say hi car, why don't you go and read what Hein to call writes

John Dehlin [00:13:40] on the ex Mormon Reddit.

Carah Burrell [00:13:41] Be careful reading out Redditors names John on live air. We might get banned off YouTube. Some of them are a little bit sketchy. Okay. Brad Wilcox showed up at my religion class at BYUI today to say hi. He came to recruit for S F

John Dehlin [00:13:53] Y F S Y for Strength of Youth.

Carah Burrell [00:13:55] It's like the new the Church's new EFY program. Memorable quotes include girls, we need ya Boys we need you more.

John Dehlin [00:14:03] Oops.

Carah Burrell [00:14:04] Apparently they need more male leaders than women to volunteer. Additionally, Brad admitted it's been a hard week, to which the teacher replied we're with you. Talk about damage control. He's hiding in his home base of CES and still going about his business as usual. Didn't address the atrocities he preached from the pulpit countless rhymes times or apologize. Nobody said anything either. Just a reminder to me that nothing will change and I need to get out of the school.

John Dehlin [00:14:31] 8 SAP well we appreciate ex Mormon Reddit.

John Dehlin [00:14:35] It plays a really important role in Mormonism and postmormonism.

John Dehlin [00:14:39] And again, it's systems not people. Brad Wilcox. What's his wife's name again?

Carah Burrell [00:14:44] Debbie.

John Dehlin [00:14:45] Debbie, we love you guys and I.

John Dehlin [00:14:47] We're not out for you.

John Dehlin [00:14:48] We're out.

John Dehlin [00:14:48] You just are the messengers representing the

John Dehlin [00:14:52] church and representing Mormonism. So we wish you and your family well. We hope you guys have better weeks and most importantly Mormon church, we hope you learn to listen to these episodes

John Dehlin [00:15:06] to get feedback, to make substantive, meaningful changes. Because we don't get joy out of

John Dehlin [00:15:12] all this pain and suffering. At least I don't.

Carah Burrell [00:15:15] I'd rather you say the nothing that's ever racist or sexist or makes anyone feel small or undeserving of their creator's love ever again and just cut that out. And we'll be good.

John Dehlin [00:15:26] And the show will go away.

Guest [00:15:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:27] And we'll be happy.

Church Finances and Other News Stories

John Dehlin [00:15:28] Okay, next bit of news that I thought was interesting. Sally Tribune reporting that the LDS Church made $22 billion during the pandemic. And, you know, a couple little quotes from this article that I thought were interesting. It says the fund remains heavy with technology stocks, dominated by what is now a $10.3 billion stake spread among Amazon, Apple, Facebook, Google, and Microsoft. Apple is still Ensign Peak's single largest holding at 2.9 billion, followed closely by Microsoft at 2.8 billion. And then it goes on to say, documents show that Ensign's managers bought 118,380 additional shares in Tesla last quarter, upping their position from 462 million to 755 million in the US electric vehicle and clean energy firm. So, Carah, what do you think about Apple and Tesla being at the centerpiece

John Dehlin [00:16:30] of Ensign Peaks investment strategy?

Carah Burrell [00:16:32] You know, like that scripture that's like, a child will lead them. It's like gay and atheist billionaires will lead them. They're all just, like, in one club together. So, yeah, as long as the church keeps investing in stock and keeps like, yeah, following this rising tide, they don't even need tithing at this point. That's a long, long time ago. They didn't need tithing. But.

John Dehlin [00:16:54] And you're of course referring to Tim Cook, the CEO of Apple, being an. An open gay man. And Elon Musk, we assume.

John Dehlin [00:17:02] Elon Musk is probably atheist or agnostic. He's the CEO of Tesla.

John Dehlin [00:17:06] Do you even know. Have you heard about Elon Musk at all?

Carah Burrell [00:17:08] Do you know to name his child what he named his child? You have to believe there's no God or no consequences.

John Dehlin [00:17:15] That's good.

John Dehlin [00:17:17] All right, Johnson, let's tag Elon in

John Dehlin [00:17:21] our Twitter account or something. See? Play this clip.

Carah Burrell [00:17:23] She would love that. He doesn't need an ego stroke. He doesn't need Carah to even know who he is.

John Dehlin [00:17:28] Anyway, one more piece of news, and

John Dehlin [00:17:31] then we'll get into the main event for today's episode.

John Dehlin [00:17:34] Really important breaking news today.

John Dehlin [00:17:37] There's a.

John Dehlin [00:17:38] A podcast called Questions from the Closet. It's basically Charlie Bird and Ben Shilotti, both are BYU employees. Charlie Bird, of course, is caught. I think he's been Cosmo, kind of

John Dehlin [00:17:53] a dancer, kind of gay Mormon celebrity at byu.

Carah Burrell [00:17:58] Cosmo is the BYU mascot. And I was not surprised when he came out of the closet because he's a professional person who just like impersonates a kitty cat for a living. So I was like, oh, gay, huh? Interesting sounds, right?

John Dehlin [00:18:11] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:18:12] Hope he's living his best life.

Speaker I [00:18:13] Is he?

John Dehlin [00:18:13] I think he is. For sure he is.

John Dehlin [00:18:15] And we're about to hear about that.

John Dehlin [00:18:16] And then Ben Shalotti, I think he works for the Honor Code office as well. And these are two openly gay men

John Dehlin [00:18:21] again, that work for byu.

John Dehlin [00:18:22] Well, we did an episode on Mormon Stories podcast a few months ago, maybe with Gerardo Sumano and one other Mormon Stories listener. And in that episode we talked about how the Mormon Church has this history of, of kind of using gay celebrities or gay spokespeople to kind of push for celibacy in the Mormon Church, for mixed orientation marriages, for faithful gay discipleship within the Mormon Church. And we weren't going after Ben and Charlie, but we did mention Ben and Charlie as some of the most recent examples. We had heard through multiple sources that that Ben and or Charlie were actively dating other men while they were BYU

John Dehlin [00:19:10] students and or BYU employees.

John Dehlin [00:19:12] And that that was kind of the

John Dehlin [00:19:14] one of the worst kept secrets in Provo.

John Dehlin [00:19:16] And whether or not they actually were dating, that wasn't our point to speculate. It was only to say that if they were able to date, and specifically if they were able to date because they were kind of celebrities and had special privileges or permissions from their bishop or special arrangements with the Honor Code officer, whatever, that, that wouldn't be quite fair because on the podcast they were basically telling gay Latter Day Saints, be celibate, get a mixed orientation marriages, live

Carah Burrell [00:19:49] like it's working for us. What they're saying it was working for them or what was their.

John Dehlin [00:19:54] Yeah, from their experience, that's they were creating the appearance, as I understand it, they were creating the appearance that they were celibate, living the honor code, that sort of thing, and encouraging other gay Latter Day Saints to be celibate or

John Dehlin [00:20:08] get in mixed orientation marriages and live the honor code.

John Dehlin [00:20:12] And so we basically posed the question, if it's true that you're secretly dating, but telling other gay Latter Day Saints that they, they should be celibate, live the honor, live the live chastity, or get mixed orientation married, that that would be kind of unethical. And if they had Special deals with their bishops that would also be unethical. And what it turns out, and this was announced today on this podcast, Charlie comes out, it turns out, as being in a romantic relationship with another man. And he. This is him. This isn't me outing him. This is him coming out on his podcast telling his audience. To his credit, I have been deceiving you and others. I have been engaged in what he called same sex romantic behavior. He calls it ssrb with another man. Why I've been sinning and not living the honor code while a BYU student. And while running a podcast telling other gay Latter Day Saints to obey the

John Dehlin [00:21:18] honor code and live the law of chastity.

Speaker J [00:21:19] Wow.

John Dehlin [00:21:20] And so to his credit, he admitted that he's been doing this.

Speaker K [00:21:24] Wow.

John Dehlin [00:21:24] And he's still a student, but he also told the audience how he's dealt with that. And basically, and this is. This is sort of our advice to gay BYU students and lesbian students everywhere. What he did is he. I think he got word that people were starting to talk, so he went

John Dehlin [00:21:44] to the honor code office and confessed.

John Dehlin [00:21:46] And because he didn't get caught, but instead because he confessed, they were lenient on him. And now that he's backed off and promised not to engage in same sex

John Dehlin [00:21:58] romantic behavior while he's a student, and I think he graduates ssrb. Ssrb.

John Dehlin [00:22:05] While he remains a student through the spring, he says he's gonna not engage

John Dehlin [00:22:11] in SSRB with his boyfriend.

John Dehlin [00:22:14] They're gonna let him stay. And so this is kind of interesting on so many levels because if you are a gay or lesbian BYU student and you think that you're going to get caught engaging in same sex romantic

John Dehlin [00:22:28] behavior or violating the honor code.

John Dehlin [00:22:31] Charlie's given us the playbook. Go consider if this is right for you. Going proactively to the honor code office, confessing to them that you have not

John Dehlin [00:22:41] been faithful to the honor code.

John Dehlin [00:22:43] Tell them that Charlie Byrd did the same thing. He's currently a BYU student, and that the church didn't kick him out. And so they can't kick you out.

Carah Burrell [00:22:53] Yeah, get that. Get the word out on the street.

John Dehlin [00:22:54] Yeah, get that word out. And then if they're in any way consistent, they will be lenient to you, let you stay, and then just, you know, don't get in trouble.

Carah Burrell [00:23:05] This is like the Mormon Supreme Court where it's like the ruling on the honor code office of Charlie Bird. It's establishing President. May I refer to. Refer to Charlie Bird, and then just use that. Since it worked for him.

John Dehlin [00:23:16] Honestly. Honestly, it couldn't hurt. I guess the stakes are high. So I don't mean to be flipping about this.

John Dehlin [00:23:21] BYU students do what's safe and right

John Dehlin [00:23:24] for you, but you should at least know for sure. If you get caught and you're in trouble, make sure you tell your bishop and the honor code office you know about Charlie Bird. You know that leniency was given to him. Don't let them ever kick you out of byu because if what's good enough

John Dehlin [00:23:42] for Charlie Bird should be good enough for the rest of the gay and lesbian Latter Day Saints at byu.

Carah Burrell [00:23:48] I think so.

John Dehlin [00:23:49] And again, shout out. Kudos to Charlie and Ben for admitting

John Dehlin [00:23:53] this, for being public about it.

John Dehlin [00:23:55] Maybe this is a brand new day

John Dehlin [00:23:58] for LGBT BYU students. Maybe they're going to be allowed to date now as long as they stay in touch with the honor code office and don't get caught doing something bad.

Carah Burrell [00:24:09] I wonder if we were to ask him though that, do you think it's mentally, is it healthy to completely just not engage in any type of romantic behavior to the person that you're attracted to for your four or longer years at byu? Is that not only is it, is it sustainable, but is it healthy? I wonder what he would say.

John Dehlin [00:24:27] Yeah, I mean, I know in my dissertation research being, choosing to be celibate was the worst choice you could make for your mental health and well being. So I think science has told us the answer to that.

Carah Burrell [00:24:40] Gay, straight, whatever it is, you're worthy of love.

John Dehlin [00:24:44] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:24:44] I love you.

John Dehlin [00:24:45] Yeah. And that, that may not be true for everyone. There may be asexual people out there or others that.

Carah Burrell [00:24:51] But are you worthy of it? Damn straight.

John Dehlin [00:24:53] Absolutely.

Introducing the Insider Report

John Dehlin [00:24:54] Okay, well, that's, that is our kind of. In the news spotlight. It is now time for our, our main event.

Carah Burrell [00:25:04] Top story.

John Dehlin [00:25:06] Yeah. We are. For the main substance of tonight's show. The question that we're asking is, is the Mormon Church in decline? An insider report. And let me just give a little background or a few disclaimers. First of all, you know, one of the, one of the most significant comments

John Dehlin [00:25:25] that I receive or questions that I receive constantly. I don't know if this is true for you, Carah.

John Dehlin [00:25:30] It's sort of like, do the brethren

John Dehlin [00:25:31] really believe or are they intentionally deceiving everyone? That's question one that I get.

Carah Burrell [00:25:35] People ask that, like as if John Dehlin is like sitting in like a sleepover guy.

Guest [00:25:42] It's true.

Carah Burrell [00:25:42] Or dare. Do you guys really believe that their legs are like kicking in the background. They're like popping popcorn and stuff, like on A big, like, cute bed or something. That's how I think everyone imagines, like John tell us painting each other's toenails. Yeah. I'm like, they don't talk. I don't know why. You think John would know? No, he can do his best guess.

John Dehlin [00:25:58] Yeah, well, that's what, that's question one.

John Dehlin [00:26:00] Do the brethren really believe or are they fooling us?

John Dehlin [00:26:03] But question two is, is the Mormon Church in decline? And I want to kind of give

John Dehlin [00:26:08] a proper, I want to set proper expectations.

John Dehlin [00:26:12] So the question you all are asking, the reason why we have 1200 people currently joined in to this live episode,

John Dehlin [00:26:20] which we're, we're super happy about.

John Dehlin [00:26:22] You know, you all want to know, is the canary dead? Is the canary in the coal mine dead? Or is the canary still alive? And I want to set your expectations to say that when the, you know, now that the Mormon Church is worth, you know, if it's not worth a trillion dollars now in, in cash and

John Dehlin [00:26:40] stock and bonds and real estate and

John Dehlin [00:26:43] assets and intellectual property, it will be

John Dehlin [00:26:46] within the next 10 to 20 years.

John Dehlin [00:26:47] It's, it's minimally worth 3 to $400

John Dehlin [00:26:50] billion and it's going to be worth a trillion within a decade or two if they're not already there.

John Dehlin [00:26:56] So as long as the church is that rich, there's going to be a ton of members that don't leave just because they don't want to lose their jobs or they have contracts with the church or their church employees, like federal government employees, or they're, you know, direct family members to top leaders in the church, all of which have intense pressure not to leave. So, you know, I'm just going to set your expectations. If the, if the shakers who actually have a doctrine that you shouldn't have children, if somehow they're still alive 100 or 150 years later from when they started and they're not allowed to have children, somehow they're still alive. The Mormon Church is going to, you know, be alive for probably centuries to come. Sorry if that disappoints some of you, but that's just reality. And so I will, of course, reference.

Carah Burrell [00:27:42] We were spilling other tea and now the tea. I just want to know is about the Shakers. I want to know everything about the Shakers.

John Dehlin [00:27:47] No, it's true.

John Dehlin [00:27:48] They have a doctrine that says don't have kids.

Carah Burrell [00:27:50] How did they have intercourse or reproduction? Oh, I thought like, it's like only have them on accident. Take your wife and shake her.

John Dehlin [00:27:59] Ooh, that's dark.

John Dehlin [00:28:02] No, no, no. So they have to get converts who

John Dehlin [00:28:04] are willing to take that vow. And. But, but, I mean, how many? That's.

John Dehlin [00:28:09] How's that for a missionary door approach? Knock, knock, knock. Would you like to join our plan of salvation which includes never having sex

John Dehlin [00:28:15] for the rest of your life?

Carah Burrell [00:28:17] No sex either?

John Dehlin [00:28:17] Oh, I don't know.

Carah Burrell [00:28:18] I mean, can have sex and not have kids.

John Dehlin [00:28:20] I don't know.

Carah Burrell [00:28:20] I'll tell you about it someday, John.

John Dehlin [00:28:21] Okay, tell me about that.

John Dehlin [00:28:23] All right. Anyway, so, you know, the. The Mark Twain quote comes to mind. The reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated. You know, the Mormon Church isn't going to go away anytime soon. And I'm not going to claim right now that we have some huge, massive bombshells for tonight's episode. But I do think. I do think that you are going

John Dehlin [00:28:44] to find, dear watcher, viewer, listener, some really interesting things on tonight's episode.

John Dehlin [00:28:50] And to let you know, kind of what we're going to be talking about today, I'll tell you how this episode came about. So there is a social media platform for business people.

Carah Burrell [00:29:02] LinkedIn.

John Dehlin [00:29:03] LinkedIn. So I got this email from LinkedIn that's like, John, you haven't visited LinkedIn

John Dehlin [00:29:08] and LinkedIn in, like, 10 years. There's. There's messages waiting for you. So I sign on to LinkedIn and

John Dehlin [00:29:14] I go through my messages, and I

John Dehlin [00:29:16] have, like, 500 messages that I haven't answered in LinkedIn. I'm embarrassed to admit that.

John Dehlin [00:29:20] And one of them was from a guy who lives, let's just say, somewhere along the Wasatch front. Somewhere between, let's just say southern Salt

John Dehlin [00:29:33] Lake county and let's say southern Utah County.

John Dehlin [00:29:38] So somewhere along that little corridor, Moradors,

Carah Burrell [00:29:41] they're all the same. At the end of the day, there's

John Dehlin [00:29:44] probably a little bit of difference between, like, Riverton or. Or, like, you know, Murray and like, let's say, Spanish Fork. I don't know. No, you think they're all the same

Carah Burrell [00:29:54] in terms of, like, most of the people on your block are Mormon. I'm talking about densely populated Mormon area.

John Dehlin [00:30:00] Daybreak people.

John Dehlin [00:30:00] You tell us if you're different than Nephi people. You tell us.

John Dehlin [00:30:06] Or are you all the same?

John Dehlin [00:30:07] Anyway, we're off track.

Carah Burrell [00:30:08] Fight for second place because we know Provost number one. All right, go for it.

John Dehlin [00:30:11] Oh, you're a Provo girl.

Carah Burrell [00:30:13] I'm a Provo girl through and through. The blonde hair not tell you already. Go on.

John Dehlin [00:30:16] All right, so as I'm talking to this guy on LinkedIn, he makes a really interesting comment. He says, john, you might find it interesting to know I'm an avid listener Mormon stories.

John Dehlin [00:30:26] I've been listening for 10 years.

John Dehlin [00:30:27] I lost my faith like 10 years ago. But I've stayed in the church because I've wanted to.

John Dehlin [00:30:32] You know, it's good for my family.

John Dehlin [00:30:33] My wife still believes and I want to be a positive influence on the inside. And he says, I'm on the Stake High Council and I have access to all the stats and the data from my stake. And he said, I've done an informal survey of, you know, priesthood leaders in my stake and I found that 30

John Dehlin [00:30:52] to 40% of the members of our

John Dehlin [00:30:56] stake are not literal believers. They are non literal believers.

Guest [00:31:00] What?

John Dehlin [00:31:01] That's what he said and we're going to get into that. But that like piqued my interest because

Carah Burrell [00:31:05] this is a person who's doing interviews and talks to other people in the

John Dehlin [00:31:09] same position, travels throughout his stake, gives, gives presentations and speeches to stake members and, and he also sits on High Council, Stake High Council meetings. And he, you know, is in stake priesthood leadership meetings. And you know, but, but that's not a huge surprise. We have many Mormon bishops, active Mormon bishops, active Mormon state presidents, active seminary and institute teachers who no longer believe, but they remain in their positions either because they have to for job reasons

John Dehlin [00:31:39] or family reasons or because they want to.

John Dehlin [00:31:41] So it's not a total surprise, but

John Dehlin [00:31:43] it's always fun to find out about. Are you surprised?

Carah Burrell [00:31:47] Yeah, I actually am. That. Yeah.

Guest [00:31:50] Next.

John Dehlin [00:31:50] Anyway, so, so this guy's telling me this and so we meet for lunch and he gives me the skinny of insider information, anecdotal and statistical about his stake, also about area, because he attends, he attends area level trainings. I don't know if it's Utah area south or whatever, but he attends general authority level trainings from his area and he has a few well placed contacts within church headquarters that have given him scoops. So today, Mormon scoops.

Guest [00:32:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:25] So today we're going to share with you what he shared with me. And before we jump in, I just

John Dehlin [00:32:31] want to give a shout out to inside sources.

John Dehlin [00:32:33] Like the November 2015 policy leak that came about because of an insider in a Bishop Ricker, Stake President, Stake High

John Dehlin [00:32:42] Council, who leaked that information to me

John Dehlin [00:32:44] and others, you know, huge shout out to, you know, this person who, well, let's say the, the member of the Alpine Stake. Actually there are a couple members of

John Dehlin [00:32:54] the Alpine stake or Stakes who sent me, you know, sent us that Brad

John Dehlin [00:32:59] Wilcox talk from last week. If we had not received those leaks,

John Dehlin [00:33:03] we would not have been able to share with you. Brad Wilcox, week on warm stories. Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:33:10] And huge shout out to this guy. And I just want to say if you are aware of insider information within your stake or ward, if you have interesting speakers coming to your water stake, please record that stuff. If you have troubling one on one or one on a few interviews with general authorities or bishops or stake presidents and it's legal in your state or country to do this, please leak to us so that we can make sure

John Dehlin [00:33:36] that sunlight is an amazing disinfectant to

John Dehlin [00:33:39] help the Mormon Church become healthier.

John Dehlin [00:33:41] Because that's what we want to do at the end of the day and

Carah Burrell [00:33:43] we don't want to thrust people into faith crises whatsoever. But we are here for you if some of this information is devastating. And on the other end, you need to find a place to go in a community to and a new life to build outside of this church. That's got, like we were saying with the Brad Wilcox talk, so much toxic rhetoric that is not helpful, does not facilitate a good Christ like relationship with your fellow family members, the world in general. So there's some toxic things in this world. And yeah, if we can shine a little light on it and make people really evaluate the church that they belong to and what the membership is for and what they're not, then we'll hear for you. So thanks everyone.

John Dehlin [00:34:19] Yeah, and given the stakes of Mormonism,

John Dehlin [00:34:21] this practice of like secret insider info

John Dehlin [00:34:24] and speaking to the insiders one way and then speaking to the public another way, that's gotta go.

Deep Throat: Faith Crisis Among Church Leaders

John Dehlin [00:34:29] So. All right, so without any further ado, I am going to, we are going to share with you guys some intel from a mid level Mormon church leader along the Wasatch front with contacts at LDS Church headquarters, a person that I'm affectionately referring to as Mormon Scoops Deep Throat. So let's jump into what Mormon Scoops

John Dehlin [00:34:49] Deep Throat shared with us.

John Dehlin [00:34:50] So he summarized five challenges that are pulling at his stake. All the stakes that he's aware of in kind of the Utah south area I believe it's called. He categorized it as five things. Youth apathy, Covid apathy, right wing cognitive dissonance in the church, LGBTQ plus issues. People under 30ish just don't have a problem with LGBTQ issues and testimony issues. So that Carah, is kind of a preview for what we're going to be talking about tonight. That's how he summarized it. And I'm just going to dive in with the first and this is going to be verbatim text that he wrote me. Um, we're going to start out with some anecdotal stuff and then he drops into actual data. So regarding faith crisis and testimony stuff, this is what he writes. Do you want to read it, Carah?

Carah Burrell [00:35:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:40] Okay.

Carah Burrell [00:35:42] My brain cells say, kara, it's your time to go. Move your lips. Okay. Mormon store or.

John Dehlin [00:35:46] So this is him writing me and you're reading.

Carah Burrell [00:35:49] I'm reading it in my woman voice, though. But this is not a woman. This is a steak.

John Dehlin [00:35:55] High Councilman.

Carah Burrell [00:35:55] Hi, Councilman.

John Dehlin [00:35:56] On the Wasatch front, which would be a man.

Speaker I [00:35:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:59] Talk deeply.

Carah Burrell [00:36:00] I'd say it comes up in every leadership session of every state conference and frequently in high council meeting. Our stake president has noted that this is a frequent topic of discussion in coordinating councils meetings with 20 ish stake presidents in our area. So again, it's not like this problem is going away, but it does feel like it isn't as common as it was three to five years ago. One member of our stake presidency read the Oaks talk where he said, don't study if you have church history issues.

John Dehlin [00:36:32] Okay, so what he's saying here, as I understand it, is that faith crisis issues are the topic of the day.

John Dehlin [00:36:39] That there is not a single meeting that happens on the stake level where faith crisis issues isn't mentioned. That's kind of significant.

John Dehlin [00:36:48] Yeah, but he's saying that faith crisis

John Dehlin [00:36:51] issues for historical or theological or doctrinal reasons, the types of things that would

John Dehlin [00:36:56] cause liberals to kind of leave the church, maybe isn't quite as prevalent as

John Dehlin [00:37:00] something we're going to talk about in just a second. Any responses to that, Carah?

Carah Burrell [00:37:03] It makes me think of when the electricity goes out in your house and the only thing that you can talk about is like, that's so weird. I'd be doing. So there's. The only type of conversation is how the lights are off and you can't really move on with your life until you get the lights back on. But as we are going to tell you, I don't think the lights are going to come back. I don't think you guys will be able to talk about much else.

John Dehlin [00:37:22] Well, hopefully they'll change, but, you know, we'll see.

Carah Burrell [00:37:25] It's just people in faith crisis and that's the topic of the day. That's all that they can really talk about.

John Dehlin [00:37:29] It feels like, and that's part of

John Dehlin [00:37:31] the problem for them if I'm in their shoes, is that the more you talk about it, the more you create the problem. Because if you're talking to all your top leadership constantly about. It's like porn.

John Dehlin [00:37:40] The more you tell Mormon kids not

John Dehlin [00:37:42] to look at porn, the more they're going to look at porn because you keep talking about it and reminding them and making it forbidden. The more you talk to your top stake leadership about faith crises, you're probably going to start some.

Carah Burrell [00:37:52] What if we can combine porn with the gospel topics essays and make like a really sexy, like, do you want to learn about Joseph's polygamy Kirtland in Ohio and then make it irresistible to Mormons? Faith crisis and porn. Anyone want to sponsor me on that project?

John Dehlin [00:38:06] I'm saying no, but, you know, you could do that on my office on your own channel.

Carah Burrell [00:38:09] All right, I'll make it an irresistible.

John Dehlin [00:38:12] Okay, so that's point one. Let's go to point two. Go and read the title.

John Dehlin [00:38:17] Because he wrote these titles as well.

Carah Burrell [00:38:19] Cognitive dissonance and angst among conservatives for the first time.

John Dehlin [00:38:23] Okay, this is important.

Carah Burrell [00:38:25] This may be the defining issue right now. Multiple people in our stake have left the church, slash distance themselves from the church and or are openly critical for the first time because of the church's stance on vaccines and mask feel. The church is too liberal. Multiple people in our stake have either left spouses or are in turmoil with spouses because of the prepper movement. Slash Julie Rowe stuff.

John Dehlin [00:38:47] Yeah, and this is kind of. This is kind of a, you know, he's going to tell us later.

John Dehlin [00:38:52] This is the defining issue.

John Dehlin [00:38:53] Can you imagine one of your stake

John Dehlin [00:38:56] presidency members in a Mormon stake presidency posting anti vax, anti mass kind of Trumpian messages on his Facebook page, you

John Dehlin [00:39:06] know, and the whole stake starts watching. Can you imagine that you're having like

John Dehlin [00:39:13] a wave within wards and stakes following Julie Rowe prepper Julie Rowe.

John Dehlin [00:39:18] We know that, like Chad Daybell and Lori Vallow who ended up killing their own children. They are Julie Rove. They were Julie Rowe fans.

John Dehlin [00:39:28] They were Julie Rowe friends. We did a whole episode or a series on the Chad Dable and Lori Valo murders, basically, or alleged murders.

John Dehlin [00:39:36] And so to think that Julie Rowe,

John Dehlin [00:39:39] who we've also covered our Mormon story,

John Dehlin [00:39:41] she like, is prophesying about the end times. She's choosing dates, you know, when the second coming of Jesus is going to happen. She's encouraging all these preppers to like,

John Dehlin [00:39:51] buy tents and, and Ammon ammunition and

John Dehlin [00:39:54] guns and go up to the hills and sell their 401ks and their life

John Dehlin [00:39:58] savings because the end of.

John Dehlin [00:40:00] The end of the world is nigh. Like, this is a bigger Problem as big as the faith crisis. You know, liberal truth claims, CES letter

John Dehlin [00:40:10] type issues are for the church along the Wasatch front.

John Dehlin [00:40:13] It's.

John Dehlin [00:40:14] He's saying it's a way bigger issue. Julie Rowe, Prepper, anti vax Trump rhetoric. It's tearing marriages apart. Families and top church leaders are resigning over this issue. Did you have.

John Dehlin [00:40:25] You're from that area. Did you have an idea that that was happening?

Carah Burrell [00:40:28] All I can say is that I was raised by people that are, I wouldn't say quite preppers, but I was raised by people. And my family is plugged into a certain kind of like, more spiritual, hippie, conservative underground community that's been around for years and they'd have like small little gatherings and like, you know, rent a cabin up at Bear Lake kind of stuff. So I've always known that there was like this underground quiet thing because that's what my family members were kind of in. But it is interesting that Covid has taken a rise where people have to pick a side now more than ever. And the only thing that I really care about in my deep foundation is somebody is waking up and realizing maybe the person I put my faith in, the prophet, is not what he claims to be. And so the reasons for that I might not agree with. But still the other side of that life shattering faith crisis is still who I have a heart for. Does that make sense? So did I know about all of this stuff? Yeah, I went to the Book of Mormon Evidence Conference, like I brought up like a thousand times. And that is very much that crowd too. Do you know what I mean by that?

Guest 2 [00:41:25] Like.

Carah Burrell [00:41:25] Like people who have their own kind of off brand of Mormonism where they sustain the leaders, but they still think that they have a certain connection with truth that the leadership does not access that they do.

John Dehlin [00:41:38] Yeah, yeah. And we're going to get to that in just a second because the church

John Dehlin [00:41:41] has an answer for that. But I'll just add to what you're saying, Carah. The church is really being split in

John Dehlin [00:41:46] two because they have liberals and progressives and pro LGBT people and pro women and pro people of color on the one hand. That's pulling the church in one direction. And then you've got these prepper fundamentalist super conservatives pulling the church in another direction. And it's got to be an excruciating task to try and stay centered and not lose both wings.

QAnon, Conservatism, and Prophetic Authority

John Dehlin [00:42:08] So let's go to the next slide. This can. This continues the conservative sort of commentary. Carrie, do you want to continue cognitive

Carah Burrell [00:42:18] dissonance and angst among conservatives for the first time. Part two. I can't stress enough how big of a deal this has become. Well, we had a high ranking leader in our stake released because he was too pro Trump on social media and believed in the QAnon stuff as well. The combination of anti vaxxers, Julie Rowe ites preppers and insane conspiracy theories, plus the church's relative moderation on those issues has caused real schisms in wards and quite a bit of radicalism in wards among some.

John Dehlin [00:42:52] Yeah. So this is just repeating kind of what we just talked about. Anything else you want to.

John Dehlin [00:42:55] I mean the QAnon stuff is also

John Dehlin [00:42:56] significant because the QAnon conspiracy theory, it, it really reminds me of like Ezra Taft Benson, no man knows my history John Birch Society conservatism that, you know, that we brought on Matt Harris on Mormon Stories podcast to talk about during the kind of 60s and 70s as you tap Benson kind of years, and QAnon just falls right along with that. But the fact that QAnon has kind of infected, you know, Mormon wards and stakes throughout the Wasatch front, it's a

John Dehlin [00:43:24] little bit of the chickens coming home

John Dehlin [00:43:26] to roost because of.

John Dehlin [00:43:27] If the Mormon Church doesn't encourage critical

John Dehlin [00:43:29] thinking, if the Mormon Church doesn't encourage people to value evidence, if the, if

John Dehlin [00:43:34] the Mormon Church kind of relies on emotion as a way to discern truth,

John Dehlin [00:43:39] then then yeah, you're gonna have a

John Dehlin [00:43:42] lot of people who are devoutly religious

John Dehlin [00:43:47] in incorporate sympathies towards, you know, movements like QAnon into their worldview and it's going to infect the church.

Carah Burrell [00:43:54] People who sometimes don't know how to decipher real types of data, analyze things versus just go off of what feels best and stick with that and you know, everything else be damned because their feelings trump all. No pun intended.

Guest [00:44:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:09] In some sense religion can be viewed

John Dehlin [00:44:11] as a, as a conspiracy theory. And so what is, how, how different is QAnon from a set of religious beliefs believing in something you can't totally

John Dehlin [00:44:19] see, but you can read the tea

John Dehlin [00:44:20] leaves and, and feel the spirit and, and know it's true.

Guest [00:44:24] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:44:25] And just to be clear, I don't think anyone who. I think people get into certain ideas that we all want the best for ourselves, our family, our countries. And we have disagreements about how to best analyze the data of what actually will have that come to fruition. And so people who are in all of those different camps that we just explained, I truly believe I was very conservative, grew up like in an anti vaxx family. My Parents have Trump painted on every car. Like, I grew up in the most version of that. My parents had never heard of QAnon, though, so don't tell them about that one. But we're interviewing Rod Meldrum on Friday. Like the young, like the Heartland theory, universal model, all of these things that are just not really based on evidence. I was raised in that, and I still have a love for these people. And I believe that they're. They're genuine, good people who are looking for how to, you know, get out the truth to try to better society, better people that they think they have the answer. Unfortunately, I don't think that they do. But we all want to believe that people are doing the best with the information that they have, that they're not. They don't have nefarious motives.

John Dehlin [00:45:28] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:29] And we want, we, we don't want

John Dehlin [00:45:31] Mormon stories to be partisan, Republican or Democrat, conservative or liberal. Liberal.

John Dehlin [00:45:36] Politically, I believe there are good reasons

John Dehlin [00:45:37] to be in either party or independent. We have John Larsen on, who clearly takes one side. But we want our Republican or conservative listeners to feel like our show is safe for them. So just that's to be as explicit as possible.

John Dehlin [00:45:50] We may have our personal biases, but we want to.

John Dehlin [00:45:53] We want you to feel comfortable on Mormon stories podcast for sure.

John Dehlin [00:45:57] Okay, a third slide that. That relates to conservatives.

John Dehlin [00:46:01] Carah.

John Dehlin [00:46:02] And this is going to be a little bit repetitive, but he's just really

John Dehlin [00:46:04] emphasizing and giving a little bit more detail.

Carah Burrell [00:46:08] All right, part three. Personally, I think this poses a bigger threat to the church than the stuff we dealt with 10 years ago. Church history, issues, etc. I can't stress this enough. I think you'll see more talks about the organization of the church and how revelation flows through the First Presidency, 1270 Area Presidencies, stake president, bishops, etc. Because some of these extremists think they're receiving coded messages from the General. What is that? General Conference, General Conference talks. The church will re emphasize this isn't the way it works. Elder Christopherson gave a talk literally about this subject in a Utah area meeting that every ward in Utah watched for the fifth Sunday last week. You'll see more of this. Wow, that's so interesting.

John Dehlin [00:46:49] What's interesting about this?

Carah Burrell [00:46:50] Because I mean, people. I mean, QAnon is based on like, coded messages. It's people being like, you know, like I was just trying to say people who have a genuine love for the country and for like, ending child sex trafficking and things that are obviously the horrid atrocities that we don't want to see any More of. And the way that we're going to stop them is through a coded message and not actually paying attention to the broader issue of how to actually get things done, I guess is a nice way to put it. And so people who are already programmed to look for like, oh, other people are not smart enough to get this message. But I got it, I've got the intel. And that's exactly how the people that I know that I just mentioned earlier, that's exactly how they think that they have a more supreme in tune spiritual intellect that can, that can decode these messages more than just your average ward member that they've got it. So that's, that's falls right in line that with, with everything we just mentioned, that whole camp, along with general conference talks.

John Dehlin [00:47:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:48] And you made a reference earlier to this idea that like the, the Brethren are inspired and you know, follow the prophet. Unless they teach something we don't like

John Dehlin [00:47:58] like the use of masks or you know, the need to get vaccinated.

John Dehlin [00:48:02] And then we're all entitled to personal

John Dehlin [00:48:04] revelation to, to sort of, you know, diverge from the path that the prophets sees and revelators have given us.

John Dehlin [00:48:12] And basically what we're hearing here is that the, you know, expect messages from the church telling us what the official formal channel of communication is. You know, personal revelation, personal spirit, not so much. Look for it to come. Prophet, first presidency, quorum of the 12,

John Dehlin [00:48:30] general authorities, area authorities, down to stake leaders.

John Dehlin [00:48:34] It's kind of like when Joseph Smith

John Dehlin [00:48:36] was translating with the Peepstone.

John Dehlin [00:48:37] And then was it Hiram Page that

John Dehlin [00:48:39] wanted, you know, to get in on the action of, of being able to have his own inspiration through the peepstone? Do you remember what happened?

John Dehlin [00:48:45] Hiram Page, Wasn't it Hiram Page? Joseph's like, ah, yeah, that, that, that

John Dehlin [00:48:50] Peepstone interpreting, that's kind of my job. You got to back off.

John Dehlin [00:48:53] Listeners and viewers tell us in the

John Dehlin [00:48:55] comments if, if it wasn't Hiram Page.

John Dehlin [00:48:58] But, but you know, the church is always having to fight this tension of

John Dehlin [00:49:02] prophetic authority and personal revelation.

John Dehlin [00:49:05] It wants to hold both, but it's problematic.

John Dehlin [00:49:08] So.

Carah Burrell [00:49:08] Yeah, yeah. So fascinating.

John Dehlin [00:49:10] So follow the, you know, follow the Brethren.

John Dehlin [00:49:12] No, no, no.

John Dehlin [00:49:13] Follow the Spirit as long as it tells you to follow the Brethren. If the Spirit tells you not to follow the brother, then follow the brother. So basically I always follow the brother.

Carah Burrell [00:49:21] Yeah. And if I can. Is this true? Do you know this for a fact? I'm going off of something that somebody told me at the Book of Mormon Evidence Conference. So I'm going to hold that with a little distance that the church has stock in, like big Pharma stocks.

John Dehlin [00:49:33] Sure, yeah.

Guest [00:49:34] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:49:35] And so I think a lot of the conspiracies are led to that, that Russell Nelson is going to be doing and saying things because he's trying to, you know, stay in line with the corporate narrative of what big Pharma would want him to do. So there's going to be certain areas that they can discount, then other areas like not accepting their gay family and friends. They're right on point with Russell on that one.

John Dehlin [00:49:56] Yeah, it's fun.

Carah Burrell [00:49:58] It's fun.

John Dehlin [00:49:59] It's fun.

John Dehlin [00:49:59] Okay, so that's, that's the conservative schism

John Dehlin [00:50:03] that's happening within Mormonism according to our Mormon scoops.

John Dehlin [00:50:06] Deep Throat. Now quickly to a really brief mention

John Dehlin [00:50:09] of a topic about women.

John Dehlin [00:50:11] And I'm just going to read this

John Dehlin [00:50:12] because it's really brief.

John Dehlin [00:50:13] Basically, he made the point that State Council, which I guess is different than High Council, and what's different about State Council than High Council is that State Council includes stake women leaders. He says that State Council is. Is held just as often as High Council now. So I guess apparently in the past it's been the norm for state High Council to meet with just men much

John Dehlin [00:50:39] more frequently than State Council that included the women.

John Dehlin [00:50:42] And now they're increasing State Council so

John Dehlin [00:50:45] that more women can be involved in,

John Dehlin [00:50:47] I guess at least being made aware of steak business. But maybe even to be more involved in decision making throughout the stake.

John Dehlin [00:50:54] I mean, that seems to be an unambiguous good. What do you think?

Carah Burrell [00:50:58] Yeah, I mean, I'm curious what the people's reaction is to that then if they're like great or they're like, I'm

John Dehlin [00:51:05] sure there's women that are like more worthless meetings. That's the last thing I needed.

Carah Burrell [00:51:08] I know. Let's turn on Mormon stories.

Speaker M [00:51:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:11] Yeah. Welcome everyone.

Carah Burrell [00:51:14] Take a word from our sponsor. Welcome to boring meetings. Taking a break.

John Dehlin [00:51:18] Mormon Stories really quick. Hey, viewers and listeners, please know that we're going to be sharing the link

John Dehlin [00:51:24] to this streamyard broadcast in just, you know, 10 or 20 more minutes. And we want to hear from you, our live in callers to join us.

John Dehlin [00:51:34] So be ready once we're ready to

John Dehlin [00:51:35] share that link to join us.

How COVID Has Affected Church Activity

John Dehlin [00:51:37] Okay, now to kind of how Covid

John Dehlin [00:51:40] is affecting, you know, activity along the Wasatch front. We've all wondered, haven't you?

John Dehlin [00:51:45] Like it. Has church activity dropped since COVID in any sustainable way? This is a comment that he made about that and here it is.

John Dehlin [00:51:57] Care do you want to go ahead and read that.

Carah Burrell [00:51:58] Starting to be. Sorry. Remote viewing of sacrament and state conference.

John Dehlin [00:52:02] So basically, obviously they've been holding stake

John Dehlin [00:52:06] conference and sacrament meeting over. Zoom.

Carah Burrell [00:52:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:09] So that people can say zoom.

Carah Burrell [00:52:10] Because remote viewing is a whole other thing.

John Dehlin [00:52:12] Oh, it is, yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:52:13] Do you know what remote viewing is? We'll talk about it later. Psychic stuff again. Stuff my family's into. Starting to be controversial. Many want to keep it, but others feel like it's giving people an excuse not to go to church.

John Dehlin [00:52:25] Yeah, so. So some want to keep. I mean, I think people enjoy their brunch.

John Dehlin [00:52:30] They enjoy.

John Dehlin [00:52:31] They're learning.

John Dehlin [00:52:32] They're learning about the concept of second Saturdays, which is kind of a post Mormon conference.

Carah Burrell [00:52:37] They're realizing getting your kids dressed up for church, that is a high that nothing can top except for Mormon stories. Tune in Mormon scoops.

John Dehlin [00:52:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:45] And brunch and just like walks and.

John Dehlin [00:52:48] Yeah, and hanging out and just loving your family and enjoying it.

Carah Burrell [00:52:51] Like, listen to church while you're, like, walking through the park or further through the forest. Don't take that away from them.

John Dehlin [00:52:55] It's compelling.

John Dehlin [00:52:56] So anyway, there's controversy in the mistake

John Dehlin [00:52:58] about whether we keep remote viewing or. Or cancel it because obviously church attendance is down. We're going to be talking about that in just a second, but let's move on to what he's calling Covid. Apathy. Take it away, Carah.

Carah Burrell [00:53:14] I hope I can read all these words. Quote, three years ago, if you would have asked me if I think the church is any real danger of In.

John Dehlin [00:53:23] Any real.

Guest [00:53:24] In.

Guest [00:53:24] He.

John Dehlin [00:53:25] It's a typo.

Carah Burrell [00:53:25] He wrote I'm still perfect. In any real danger of withering up and drying away, I would have said no. But post Covid, I think I'm less certain in that conclusion. Sacrament meeting attendance is down. Youth programs are not functioning. Remember, the church launched them in January of 2020 and priesthood, slash, release society. Attendance is down. In short, people realized that they could miss church twice a month and the world didn't end and they enjoyed it.

Guest [00:53:53] It.

Carah Burrell [00:53:54] So this won't result in people leaving in droves now, but it'll. But it'll result in generational weakness across the church. Two families on our street that were active basically only come to church when it's convenient, which is less than once a month.

John Dehlin [00:54:08] Anything interesting about that to you, Carah?

Carah Burrell [00:54:11] Yeah, just like you said, people are recognizing that the world doesn't end and life can still go on and you can still have spirituality. You can still, you know, follow the rules and the structure and. And have A very fulfilling life without all of the other rigmarole.

John Dehlin [00:54:24] I think it's worse. I think people are realizing that they can sometimes have a happier, healthier life without going to church on Sunday.

Carah Burrell [00:54:32] Yeah. If you just don't have a calling to even go to, you don't have to, like, do all this, like, anxiety and prep throughout the week. Being a member of the church is a high demand, like, lifestyle. And just to take a little bit of that pressure off, you know that analogy in church where it's like, like you have a backpack full of rocks and then you get to the top of the. You know that, that story that they always tell. It's like you get to the top of the mountain and the mean girls put backs. Rocks in the girl's backpack, and then you realize you don't need all those backs. The atonement repent. No, the backpack full of rocks with all of the rigmarole. It was all of the extra stuff that you don't have to do.

John Dehlin [00:55:05] Yeah, yeah. And. And you just have to realize that, you know, staying home with your spouse, playing with your kids, going on hikes, just having family time, watching Mormon stories. Watching Mormon stories. That's. That's precious time.

Carah Burrell [00:55:20] Precious time. Reallocated.

John Dehlin [00:55:22] The church is competing with joy, basically.

John Dehlin [00:55:25] Church in its sacrament. Sacrament meeting is competing with brunch and joy. Yeah, I would not want to compete

John Dehlin [00:55:31] with brunch and joy. Would you?

Carah Burrell [00:55:33] I cannot. I mean, hello, Mormon stories. Demographic of parents who have had to get kids in their church clothes and screaming, keeping them quiet in sacrament meeting. That is a ball of stress. And no parent has ever done that in church and said, there's no place I'd rather be than right here. No, not a single human.

John Dehlin [00:55:51] No one ever said.

Carah Burrell [00:55:52] No one ever. It is. I'd rather be anywhere than here right now.

John Dehlin [00:55:55] And Heavenly Father, this is just a note to Heavenly Father, if you want

John Dehlin [00:55:59] the world to be prepared for Jesus coming back, you should not have sent Covid.

John Dehlin [00:56:05] And if you want your one true church to grow and consume all the

John Dehlin [00:56:09] earth, you should not have sent Covid.

Carah Burrell [00:56:11] Or separating the wheat from the tares, John.

John Dehlin [00:56:13] Oh, okay, that's. That's a good point.

John Dehlin [00:56:15] Okay, the next quote we've already mentioned, but we're just going to mention it again because this is in his words. This is a direct quote. It's about the level of active disbelief in his stake. There's this term that you used in the intro, PIMO P I M O

John Dehlin [00:56:30] P For our never Mormon listeners, which is actually half of our Total audience.

John Dehlin [00:56:35] Pimo means physically in, mentally out. So it's basically people like me and Margi for the 11 years after we lost our faith where we're like, well, we want to raise our kids in the church, we like the community, we live here in Utah and you know, we'll catch a lot of family grief if we leave the church and so

John Dehlin [00:56:53] we'll just stay in it. But we really don't believe.

John Dehlin [00:56:56] Yeah. So. So, you know, the question is how. What percentage of, you know, members are pimos? And this is, this is anecdotal, but this is a stake high councilman on the Wasatch front. It's his opinion. Do you want to read that, Carah?

Carah Burrell [00:57:14] Yeah, my estimate. Estimate. What's the estimation? I can read. My estimation is that 30 to 40% of active members don't believe. Literally. This is a guest based on my conversations with mostly men in my ward and stake.

John Dehlin [00:57:32] Yeah. And like again, it's anecdotal, so we're not claiming this is a scientific study, but like an active stake high councilman

John Dehlin [00:57:41] along the west edge front is saying this.

John Dehlin [00:57:43] He's saying he's talking to other state. He's talking to other state high councilmen, he's talking to bishopric members, he's talking to leadership throughout the stake. He's traveling from ward to ward.

John Dehlin [00:57:53] And this is what he's finding out.

Carah Burrell [00:57:55] And I have no reason to think that it really would be that different because I really think that the stake is a representation of the surrounding area.

John Dehlin [00:58:02] Yeah. Think about, like, think about, you know, you know, the Thanksgiving point area, Alpine, Lehigh, Highland. Think about BYU and all the professors

John Dehlin [00:58:12] that don't believe anymore, but they don't want to lose their jobs.

John Dehlin [00:58:15] Sure. Think about the silicon slopes area with all those tech savvy, you know, businessmen and women who probably have stumbled on CES letter, you know, they're Internet savvy, they know the writing is on the wall. But like it's good for business or it's good for family or it's good for golf.

Carah Burrell [00:58:34] Yeah. My other example, like think of all of the people who have like really in tune awareness of their self worth. That's they're just like not, not checked into anymore. So

John Dehlin [00:58:48] Care barrel, she'll be here all week, everybody. That's good.

John Dehlin [00:58:51] Okay, so that's interesting, but it's anecdotal. Now he goes on to talk about the youth and this is kind of a big deal. So Carah, take it away.

Carah Burrell [00:59:03] Young men are going on missions less and coming home early from missions more often. They don't go to activities as much. There is no vibrancy or vitality in the youth program. Remember the timeline? The church killed Scouting in 2019 and then started new programs in January of 2020. So two years now of no real youth activities and no youth conference and no EFY or the SFY programs. And the youth are suffering because of it.

John Dehlin [00:59:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:30] So this suffering, what's that?

Carah Burrell [00:59:33] Are they suffering or are they living their best life?

John Dehlin [00:59:36] Actually, we're going to talk about that

John Dehlin [00:59:37] in just a second.

John Dehlin [00:59:38] But basically, the church has had dead

John Dehlin [00:59:40] youth programs for a couple years, and that's kind of a serious deal. And when they.

John Dehlin [00:59:44] When they withdrew from Scouting because of all the sexual abuse, pedophilia scandals, that

John Dehlin [00:59:49] the church has committed hundreds of millions

John Dehlin [00:59:51] of dollars to settle all the claims

John Dehlin [00:59:54] within the Mormon Church, it's really wreaking havoc on the youth programs.

John Dehlin [00:59:59] So that's just kind of the intro.

John Dehlin [01:00:01] There's. There's more. So I'll read this next one if that's all right.

John Dehlin [01:00:05] Carah. He goes on to write, some of this may be societal and young adults slash youth struggling with anxiety and depression. And that's true. There is a nationwide crisis in terms

John Dehlin [01:00:18] of, like, young men and young women mental health. So this is clearly not just a Mormon problem.

John Dehlin [01:00:24] However, he goes on to write, this is like, quote of the year. You're gonna love this. He writes, I had a bishop tell me that quote. I'd love it if a young man came to my office to confess a sin with a girl, because that would mean that at least he's talking to someone close quote.

John Dehlin [01:00:42] What?

John Dehlin [01:00:43] He's basically saying there is, kid. You know, Mormon young men are so busy playing video games, being on their devices, being on social media, and having fake online relationships that they're not actually

John Dehlin [01:00:55] talking to other humans, let alone dating and breaking the law of chastity.

Speaker I [01:00:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:00:59] So this is a Mormon bishop saying, I'd rather my young men be breaking the law of chastity than doing what

John Dehlin [01:01:05] they're doing, which is nothing.

John Dehlin [01:01:07] And to be all serious, to be serious for a second, being depressed, being anxious, being holed up in their rooms. It's sad.

John Dehlin [01:01:14] This is sad.

Carah Burrell [01:01:15] Something to be said for, like, the teen pregnancy rate plummeting, though, too.

John Dehlin [01:01:20] That's true.

Carah Burrell [01:01:21] Less hookups.

John Dehlin [01:01:22] Yeah. Less STIs in the last edge front. But. But, I mean, it's a real conundrum. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:01:30] That's so weird. It's like, I wish I could high five my young men for, like, making out with cheerleaders in the back of their cars after football games. But I can't.

John Dehlin [01:01:38] No luck. Can't do it.

John Dehlin [01:01:40] He goes on to say, talking to

John Dehlin [01:01:43] several people in and out of the church, this is a common refrain.

John Dehlin [01:01:46] And every ward, the church is very aware of this. Every single training we get is how we can take stuff off the plate of the bishop so he can spend

John Dehlin [01:01:55] more time with and focus more on the youth.

John Dehlin [01:01:58] And that's important because, you know, we now know that the elders quorum president

John Dehlin [01:02:03] and the really society president are getting a lot of the kind of serve the.

John Dehlin [01:02:07] The adults in the war.

Carah Burrell [01:02:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:09] Bishops.

John Dehlin [01:02:09] Your only calling is a bishop, really is to save our youth from leaving the church.

John Dehlin [01:02:15] Wow.

John Dehlin [01:02:15] Yeah. Or from, you know, anxiety and depression, self harm and even death by suicide.

John Dehlin [01:02:21] This sounds pretty stark.

Guest [01:02:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:23] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:02:24] That's heavy, man.

John Dehlin [01:02:25] Heavy stuff.

Carah Burrell [01:02:25] Wow.

John Dehlin [01:02:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:26] Okay, so if. If those of you who are kind of skeptics are like, oh, blah, blah, blah, this is anecdotal. Anecdotal.

John Dehlin [01:02:32] This is just this guy's opinion.

Stake Data on Attendance and Membership

John Dehlin [01:02:35] Now it's time to drop into the data. So, Carah, are you ready for some data?

Carah Burrell [01:02:40] Born ready.

John Dehlin [01:02:41] Born ready.

John Dehlin [01:02:41] All right, here is the data. First page of data. He says that this is again stake data in terms of sacrament meeting attendance, which includes those streaming.

John Dehlin [01:02:55] This is not just people actually attending that.

John Dehlin [01:02:58] The average attendance, you know, Pre Covid was 59.

Speaker M [01:03:03] The.

John Dehlin [01:03:04] The attendance now post Covid is 48%

John Dehlin [01:03:08] for three straight quarters. So just to kind of, you know,

John Dehlin [01:03:12] put a fine point on it, the. The church along the Wasatch front, if this stake is representative of, you know, the Wasatch front overall.

John Dehlin [01:03:21] And there's no reason to believe why it shouldn't be.

John Dehlin [01:03:23] It dropped 11 percentage points in sacrament

John Dehlin [01:03:26] meeting attendance from COVID That's basically took 10% of the active membership out of

John Dehlin [01:03:33] the church, if that holds.

John Dehlin [01:03:35] And he's saying it's held for three straight quarters.

Carah Burrell [01:03:37] Oh my gosh.

John Dehlin [01:03:38] So that's 10 percentage points. That's kind of a big deal. And more importantly, this stake high councilman

John Dehlin [01:03:43] felt like it was a pretty big deal.

John Dehlin [01:03:45] He goes on to write, elders quorum attendance was 77% pre Covid and now is 47% over the last three quarters. And again, that's a 30 percentage point drop. In other words, a lot of men are kind of showing up for sacrament meeting, dropping their kids off and then bailing for elders quorum. 30%, 30 percentage point drop.

John Dehlin [01:04:12] That's kind of a big deal.

Carah Burrell [01:04:14] Raindrops on roses and people bailing from church. These are a Few of my favorite things.

John Dehlin [01:04:18] Yeah, this is a big deal. And, you know, the Pew foundation would,

John Dehlin [01:04:22] Would, you know, suggest that this is not just a Mormon problem. But, you know, it's important to see how this is affecting the church.

John Dehlin [01:04:30] All right. In terms of endowed members with the temple recommend, pre Covid, it was 78%. And I'm assuming that's of the.

John Dehlin [01:04:38] Of the adults in their wards and stakes.

John Dehlin [01:04:41] Now it's 61.

John Dehlin [01:04:43] So again, a 17 percentage point drop in temple recommend holders.

John Dehlin [01:04:48] And that, that follows this PIMO theory that, like, there's a. There's a bunch of adults that don't

John Dehlin [01:04:54] want temple recommends because they're not paying

John Dehlin [01:04:56] a full tithe or they don't believe

John Dehlin [01:04:58] anymore and they can't answer the temple recommend questions.

John Dehlin [01:05:01] So now adult temple recommend holders have dropped to 61%. And then there's going to be a percentage of those that just lie to get the temple recommend or they nuance

John Dehlin [01:05:11] their answers to the questions.

John Dehlin [01:05:13] So what do you think about that, those data?

Carah Burrell [01:05:16] It makes me think that the church is toast. Like, I don't think they're going to be able to recover from this.

John Dehlin [01:05:21] They're dead.

Carah Burrell [01:05:22] It means that they. I. I think that, that. Yeah. What I mean by toast is like, this is on the way out. This is like Lulu Rich. This is spending a bunch of money building fancy temples, like, showing off that everything's fine on the outside. And while it's completely a sinking ship

John Dehlin [01:05:38] on the inside, I mean, that's a stark interpretation. We'll see if he agrees with you.

Carah Burrell [01:05:43] I get one extremely unnuanced take per episode. That was one.

John Dehlin [01:05:47] Yeah. Well, I will just say that it

John Dehlin [01:05:49] definitely seems pretty intense and he's going

John Dehlin [01:05:52] to give his opinion later. Can we just thank really quickly all the people? Tasha Johnson, Julia Allred, Sarah, several super chats are coming in through YouTube.

John Dehlin [01:06:04] That's where you click on the little,

John Dehlin [01:06:05] little dollar sign

John Dehlin [01:06:08] and. And donate.

John Dehlin [01:06:10] We pay Carah through these super chats. We pay Jen, we pay Jennifer. We pay Gerardo, me. All these facilities. We are so grateful for these super chats. Do you want to read a couple?

John Dehlin [01:06:22] Is it worth reading or should we not read them?

Carah Burrell [01:06:24] If you want us to read them, we will. And we hope that it's not disrespectful that we don't read them. We're just trying to, like, really. We're trying to go fast here and we would stop because there's so many. Because people love giving us money. We're just getting so many super chats.

John Dehlin [01:06:35] Well, we're grateful for the support because we couldn't do this without you.

John Dehlin [01:06:38] So.

Guest [01:06:39] All right.

Carah Burrell [01:06:39] And somebody said. I'll read this one though the world does not deserve the incredible humor of. What does that say?

John Dehlin [01:06:45] Carah offers.

Carah Burrell [01:06:46] Oh, interesting.

John Dehlin [01:06:46] Marisa, we're not worthy. Can I just do a Wayne's World?

John Dehlin [01:06:49] We're not worthy.

John Dehlin [01:06:51] We're not worthy. It's true.

John Dehlin [01:06:53] Thank you, Sarah, for.

John Dehlin [01:06:54] For your comments about.

Carah Burrell [01:06:55] Thanks, everyone.

John Dehlin [01:06:56] The Sarah Carrie team is what that was.

John Dehlin [01:06:58] Okay, let's go on to more data. This is about the youth and Carah, are you ready for kind of from

John Dehlin [01:07:06] the church's perspective, some very disturbing, troubling data? Are you ready?

Carah Burrell [01:07:11] This is what are you guys ready for? What keeps the general authorities up at night?

John Dehlin [01:07:17] Ward leaders, parents.

John Dehlin [01:07:19] It's a big deal.

Carah Burrell [01:07:19] All right, Should I read it?

John Dehlin [01:07:20] This is significant.

John Dehlin [01:07:21] All right.

Carah Burrell [01:07:23] Data from One Wasatch Front Stake. Youth, young men, priesthood meeting attendance 84 was the average in 2018. 2019 now have an average of 60 attendance over the last three quarters. Young women attendance.

John Dehlin [01:07:36] Wait, wait, wait.

John Dehlin [01:07:37] We just have to stop on that.

Carah Burrell [01:07:38] Sorry.

John Dehlin [01:07:38] Just highlight the men.

John Dehlin [01:07:40] That's a 24 percentage point drop in

John Dehlin [01:07:45] Priesthood attendance for young men. 24 percentage points. That's not a 24 drop. That's a 24 percentage Point drop. It's a very significant reduction.

John Dehlin [01:07:56] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:07:57] Young women.

Carah Burrell [01:07:59] Young women attendance. 88 was the average in 2018.

John Dehlin [01:08:03] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:08:03] Pre covered 2018. 2019 now have an average attendance of 63% over the last three quarters.

John Dehlin [01:08:09] Do you want to do the math on that one?

Carah Burrell [01:08:11] Heck no.

John Dehlin [01:08:12] That's a 25 point percentage point drop

John Dehlin [01:08:16] for the young women.

John Dehlin [01:08:18] So this is interesting though. The women, the young women attendance has

John Dehlin [01:08:23] declined at a higher rate than the young men attendance in that stake.

Carah Burrell [01:08:30] Curious.

John Dehlin [01:08:31] Yeah, it's a problem.

John Dehlin [01:08:35] So that is super interesting as well. This is probably, I think some of

Youth Disengagement and Missionary Trends

John Dehlin [01:08:43] the biggest revelation in this whole episode.

John Dehlin [01:08:45] Males 18 through 25 who are serving or have served a mission pre Covid it was 49%.

John Dehlin [01:08:54] Now it is 31%. And basically, you know that that stat goes on that the percentage of young

John Dehlin [01:09:02] men in their ward 90, you know,

John Dehlin [01:09:05] 85% reach, you know, reach the age of 16 and receive the.

John Dehlin [01:09:11] The priesthood, become priests.

John Dehlin [01:09:14] Only 31% of the young men are choosing to go on missions.

John Dehlin [01:09:20] Did you get that? Like, have you thought that through a third of the men being. If this data holds true for other

John Dehlin [01:09:28] stakes along the Wasatch front of the

John Dehlin [01:09:31] 80% of the young men who reach

John Dehlin [01:09:35] priest age and get the erotic priesthood at the level of priest 30% are choosing to serve missions.

John Dehlin [01:09:42] So 2/3 of the youth along the

John Dehlin [01:09:45] Wasatch front are choosing not to serve missions.

Carah Burrell [01:09:48] And we don't want to say, you know, correlation, causation, but do. What do you think? What would your guesstimate be? Is it because maybe they're just too depressed and anxious, or is it because they just don't have faith in the church enough to go commit two years to their. Do they not have the funds? What could the reason be?

John Dehlin [01:10:03] I mean, I, I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:10:04] I, I really do think it's sort

John Dehlin [01:10:05] of this, this broader national problem of just mental health, depression, anxiety, isolation, video games, screen time, social media. Somehow it's wreaking havoc more on the young men than it is on the young women. And that's just.

John Dehlin [01:10:22] So whatever the Mormon Church has done

John Dehlin [01:10:24] to try and strengthen its youth for

John Dehlin [01:10:25] the strength of the youth, especially for

John Dehlin [01:10:28] youth, it seems to have failed miserably for its young men. The Mormon Church has failed its young men in a way even more severe than, than how it's failed its young women.

John Dehlin [01:10:37] I don't know how else to interpret it.

Carah Burrell [01:10:39] And do we have data on what keeps people active versus, like, I know you've mentioned before that, like, they want them going to byu, they want to go to a church goal, they want them married, they want them locked in, they want them serving missions. And so if the, the biggest domino effect for all of that adherence to the church's principles and doctrines and attendance is a mission, what does that say for their membership in the church as a lifelong member? Is that pretty much like kaput at that point?

John Dehlin [01:11:02] That's.

Speaker O [01:11:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:03] And we're going to get to his

John Dehlin [01:11:04] interpretation that having 2/3 of your young men decide not to serve missions is going to have a devastating effect on church demographics in the long run. And we're going to talk about that.

John Dehlin [01:11:14] But he also said that of the missionaries currently serving from their stake, two thirds are women. So only a third of the missionaries

John Dehlin [01:11:26] the stake is sending out are young men.

John Dehlin [01:11:29] Isn't that interesting?

Guest [01:11:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:31] And he also said that a full third of the missionaries sent out from

John Dehlin [01:11:35] a stake come home early.

Carah Burrell [01:11:37] Did you know who run? Who runs the world?

John Dehlin [01:11:39] Who?

Carah Burrell [01:11:39] Girls.

John Dehlin [01:11:40] It's true. It's true.

John Dehlin [01:11:41] You're taking over Mormon stories.

Carah Burrell [01:11:42] The world, girls.

John Dehlin [01:11:43] It's true.

Carah Burrell [01:11:43] Who runs the world? Jen, can you hear me? Girls?

Speaker P [01:11:46] Girls.

John Dehlin [01:11:46] Jen says girls. No, but, but isn't that amazing that just, you know, five, ten years ago, girls, Mormon, Mormon women were basically not really serving missions?

Carah Burrell [01:11:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:57] Now two thirds of the missionaries are

John Dehlin [01:12:00] young women and only a third are young men.

Speaker I [01:12:03] It.

Carah Burrell [01:12:04] Correct me if I'm wrong. It almost feels like a pattern of the same way that the church withheld the priesthood from black members. And then the only way that they were going to survive in areas like Brazil and have people to run the temples and have wards that could run and have the priesthood was giving black people the priesthood. Do you feel like there's like a similar line here that like.

John Dehlin [01:12:23] Wait, are you saying that the Mormon Church. Church only has elevated the status of

John Dehlin [01:12:27] its women as a matter of survival?

Carah Burrell [01:12:30] I am saying that it keeps minorities out of positions of authority, whether that be people of different skin colors, sexual orientations or gender identities, until it is advantageous to them.

John Dehlin [01:12:43] That's a cynical approach. Raise your hand if you think cares being cynical or if you agree, make

John Dehlin [01:12:48] comments and let us know.

Carah Burrell [01:12:49] Because wouldn't that be interesting if they had to give women the priesthood because there were so few men that were able to lead the church?

John Dehlin [01:12:55] That's interesting.

Carah Burrell [01:12:56] Imagine entire, like we want. There's baptisms. They still want to perform baptisms. But there's so few men in a given mission area that have the priesthood.

John Dehlin [01:13:04] I'm certain that's going to be happening. It's like they don't have enough male priesthood leadership to fill the callings required. And they're going to at some point. That may be what causes the, you know, the prophet.

Carah Burrell [01:13:17] When you guys do that, when you do that, will you please give me props for that? I came up with the idea.

John Dehlin [01:13:21] Good idea.

Speaker Q [01:13:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:22] Are you a prophetess?

John Dehlin [01:13:23] You might be a prophetess.

John Dehlin [01:13:24] Anyway, this is serious stuff. If this data holds true for the church. And by the way, does it. Doesn't it hold. Doesn't it make sense to you, Carah, that if it's this bad along the Wasatch front, what's it like outside of Utah?

Carah Burrell [01:13:37] Because the Wasatch front has so much peer pressure to be Mormon. It is. You are just in the in group right here. So imagine dating girls where there's art. You don't have another Mormon in your high school or whatever.

Speaker R [01:13:47] Whatever.

Carah Burrell [01:13:47] You're in a foreign country and like Mormon. What's that? What are you guys believing? You wear like socks on your hands or something? Like, you have to explain like your kooky Mormonism and you live outside of the church. It's just easier to be a Mormon in a lot of respects in Utah. So what does that say?

John Dehlin [01:14:02] California, Texas, you know, New York, east coast, west coast, the South. I'm guessing things Are painful. Even more painful, right?

Carah Burrell [01:14:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:14:11] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:14:11] My heart goes out, you guys.

John Dehlin [01:14:13] It's tough.

John Dehlin [01:14:13] I wouldn't want to be a church leader right now.

John Dehlin [01:14:17] Thanks to Jason hall for the super chat. Bryce Jones.

John Dehlin [01:14:19] Sarah, thanks so much.

Reports of Turmoil at Church Headquarters

John Dehlin [01:14:20] Okay, now we're going to news from LDS Church headquarters. So in addition to having data from his stake and from the Utah south area, he has some contacts who work at church headquarters who are also willing to dish, who are willing to share some Mormon scoops. Spill with. Spill the tea with this stake high

John Dehlin [01:14:44] councilman who is kind enough to share with us what he knows.

John Dehlin [01:14:47] So let's hear what the news is from church headquarters. This is a really, really significant and important one. Carah, have you ever had people ask you or have you ever thought yourself, why are we building so many gosh darn temples? Have you ever wondered that, like, in places like Austria and Rome and Italy or even like Orem, why are we building so many temples?

John Dehlin [01:15:10] Have you wondered that?

Carah Burrell [01:15:10] I wondered, yeah. And all I can come up with is that there's like really wealthy Mormons who want to go on like a world temple trip. And they're like, we only have a hundred to choose from. Could you build some more?

John Dehlin [01:15:18] Well, an alternating theory, Carah, is just the church is growing. It's growing exponentially. And there's so many Mormons across the world that need and what that are banging on the temple, that the temples are so full on Saturdays and Sundays that they, like, people are waiting and like wrapping around the temples in line, trying to get in to do washings

John Dehlin [01:15:40] and anointings or ceilings for the dead.

John Dehlin [01:15:42] I mean, that's a possibility.

Carah Burrell [01:15:43] Yeah. I can't wait to be a second class citizen. When I was at Mormon, I was just like, bank let me in there. I've had too much freedom.

John Dehlin [01:15:51] So, so let's, let's see what you know from the inside of church temple construction. Let's see what the logic is for why these temples are being built. Are you ready, Carah?

John Dehlin [01:16:05] All right, read this slowly and deliberately.

Carah Burrell [01:16:10] Temple department in chaos. Said temple department is in chaos. Church used to have statistical model slash rubrics that determined when slash where temples are built. Now those appear to be thrown out the window. Nelson is just announcing temples in places that make no sense. Temple department is scrambling because they need to find architects and contractors to build the temples, move money around to pay for them, etc. And they're being built in areas that don't have members to support them. Vienna, Austria, for example, with 4, 700 total members in all of Austria, and probably 500ish active members.

John Dehlin [01:16:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:16:49] So think about that.

John Dehlin [01:16:50] So basically what he's saying is, is

Carah Burrell [01:16:52] that it's as bad as we thought.

John Dehlin [01:16:54] No, they. They used to. They used to sort of go, okay, look, you know, England or France or Germany, the stakes have built up. We've got enough active male priesthood leadership. We've got enough attendance. We've got enough people traveling to other countries to attend other temples. It's time to build a temple. Like, for decades and decades and decades, the Mormon Church had a formula for why they build temples. And now what's the formula for why they build temples?

Carah Burrell [01:17:22] It's whatever Nelson says.

John Dehlin [01:17:24] It's Nelson wanting to make a press release at each general conference just announcing temples. And that's a lot of people always ask. We've announced a gazillion temples, and most of them haven't been built yet.

Carah Burrell [01:17:35] A lot.

John Dehlin [01:17:35] Yeah, this explains it. But it's coming from a church employee in the temple department.

Carah Burrell [01:17:41] So saying this is how we used to do things that made sense. And then we get a new prophet in who's like, this is the way it's going to go. Because I am the prophet and nobody questions me. Even though people. I mean, anyone who's worked in any kind of position, like a group project, and you're like, I'm smarter than that person. Why are they running this show? I'm sure that's how the temple department is probably feeling right now, where it's like, this is not how we have a functional temple department right now. Rusty, back off.

John Dehlin [01:18:04] Russell M. Nelson's own employees in the

John Dehlin [01:18:06] temple department are describing the temple department as being in chaos and that these decisions are causing everyone havoc. And. And they make no sense.

John Dehlin [01:18:17] And again, that. That stat about Austria having only 500 active members and they're building a temple. They're building a temple for basically one to two stakes.

Carah Burrell [01:18:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:18:28] Like, does that make any sense?

Carah Burrell [01:18:30] Yeah. Not to mention, like, if the temple department's in chaos and it's so expensive to build temples, how much does it cost to build a temple? I. Somebody told me once it was like $60 million.

John Dehlin [01:18:40] Tens of millions.

John Dehlin [01:18:40] Tens of millions, for sure.

Carah Burrell [01:18:41] Yeah, Tens of millions. And we all know that I was. I tried to be as a. Much like a Christian Christian as I could when I was in a church. And it hurt me that I didn't feel the spirit when I was at the temple. It didn't make sense to me why these ordinances need to happen and that I'm spending so much time and money Investing in a church that builds these things when that tens of millions of dollars could be going to soup kitchens, could be going to what? The church spends less than 1% total on their humanitarian efforts. And not only am I just. I don't believe that I'm getting a lot of fulfillment out of this practice of going to the. The temple. I believe that this work is important. We could do it after we're dead, maybe. And then also on top of that, this money could be allocated so much better.

John Dehlin [01:19:18] Totally. Totally. Some theorize that literally these temples are

John Dehlin [01:19:22] being built just as a status symbol, kind of as a flex to our wealth worldwide. And others say they're kind of just tourist destinations, mostly for rich, wealthy, traveling, retired Mormons to allow them to have these luxurious vacations with their posterity, you know, traveling to these luxurious foreign countries. And it's sort of like to say, hey, are you wealthy, privileged, connected, second anointing, receiving?

Carah Burrell [01:19:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:19:49] Wealthy Mormons make sure and visit the temple.

John Dehlin [01:19:51] Wherever fancy country you go in, you know, to visit with your family. I mean.

Carah Burrell [01:19:55] Yeah. And you guys tell me if you feel the same way. When I was Mormon, like, I tried to just describe right now, it felt it was not my Christianity that told me to go to a luxurious opulent building to go worship God. It told me to do the service in the war, drive somebody that didn't have a car to the bishop storehouse and help them get food, feed the missionaries, do service, and not just sit and do these ordinances over and over again in this sitting underneath a chandelier that cost, you know, $200,000. That's how much a chandelier costs in that Mormon temple. I know that from somebody who used to work. One point is, I don't feel like I want to ask. Just kind of pull the audience. If you guys want to tell me your responses. Did you feel like that, John? We were like, I don't even know the Christianity that I feel like a lot of Mormons practice. It just doesn't coalesce with this very old school, opulent version of, like, showing off our wealth. That's not the Christianity that I think we're even moving into right now. Yeah, I think people want to move away from that.

John Dehlin [01:20:49] Like, people need water, people need vaccinations, people need sanitation, they need education, they

John Dehlin [01:20:56] need literacy, they need safety, they need schools, they need, you know, all sorts of things, mental health. Imagine if the church took the hundreds of millions, if not billions of dollars

John Dehlin [01:21:08] that spends every year on these temples

John Dehlin [01:21:10] to do dead works.

Carah Burrell [01:21:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:21:11] What if they took that money and

John Dehlin [01:21:13] actually tried to make the world a better place.

Carah Burrell [01:21:15] And every hour. And every hour that you spend doing these ordinances for the dead are spent on the living.

John Dehlin [01:21:20] Yeah. So that would be amazing.

Carah Burrell [01:21:22] So I really. I don't think this is a system.

John Dehlin [01:21:24] Free tip. Free advice from Carah and John. Free advice.

Carah Burrell [01:21:27] Yeah. Again, this is. This is honestly what I think would make the church live up to its name of being led by Christ. It seems obvious that this is like a red flag that this is not a Christian church, like, led by Jesus Christ. The way that it purports. It just. It hurt me when I was Mormon. I didn't feel a connection with it. And I think people are recognizing that too.

Guest [01:21:44] Or.

Carah Burrell [01:21:45] Or maybe I'm just one of.

John Dehlin [01:21:46] Or the Lord's ways are higher than Carah's ways. I mean, it's also possible that the

John Dehlin [01:21:49] Lord knows what he's doing and we're confused. I mean, that's possible.

Carah Burrell [01:21:53] Yeah. All of this, like, scriptures that he put in about Jesus saying that he didn't. He's the son of God and he doesn't have a place to like, boxes have holes, birds have nests. But I'm the son of God and I don't have any place to rest my head. He was just joking.

John Dehlin [01:22:06] That's metaphorical.

Carah Burrell [01:22:07] That was a joke.

John Dehlin [01:22:08] Symbolic.

Carah Burrell [01:22:09] He said my house has 200, 000 chandeliers. That was in the footnotes.

John Dehlin [01:22:13] You're very cynical today. You're kind of. You're kind of spicy. I think Red Bulls made you bit a little spicy.

Carah Burrell [01:22:19] I actually had a nap. This was after.

John Dehlin [01:22:21] Okay, no naps. No naps or Red Bull for Carah. She's spicy. You're spicy today.

Carah Burrell [01:22:25] This is Mormon scoops. This is after hours.

John Dehlin [01:22:27] Okay, after hours.

John Dehlin [01:22:28] All right, let's go on there. But there's more from the temple department, from an inside source in the temple department. Do you want to read this, Carah?

Carah Burrell [01:22:35] No, because I need to get my charger.

John Dehlin [01:22:36] Okay, I'll read it. So this well placed source within the temple department continues, and he writes, quote, so the missionary department is having to scramble to find senior couples from the Mormon corridor to staff the temples. It's a chaotic mess at the moment and shows no signs of slowing down. Nelson will likely announce 10 plus temples in every general conference until he dies again. Temple building used to be based on a rubric like X number of members and Y number of people paying tithing. And now temple announcements are simply uncoupled and unrelated to reality. On the ground, it seems to be Totally random where they're building that.

John Dehlin [01:23:23] Again, it's, it's a little bit repetitive, but, you know, that's what Russell M. Nelson's own temple department is feeling from the inside.

Carah Burrell [01:23:33] Okay, so everyone please tell us if, if you are loving this episode, if you want more Mormon scoops, what night of the week you'd prefer it to be on. And we're just gonna keep bringing you all of this amazing content. And I'm stalling because I'm having John read a text from Gerardo.

John Dehlin [01:23:51] Okay, so Gerardo is wanting us to know that Super Chats are great. We want to encourage that. But also we have attached a fundraiser sort of button to this episode because apparently we'll take your donations wherever they come. Super Chats are great. Gerardo's saying that YouTube takes 30% of the super Chats, but if you donate to the actual fundraiser that's, that's associated

John Dehlin [01:24:19] with this and other episodes, if you

John Dehlin [01:24:21] donate straight there, the full amount goes

John Dehlin [01:24:24] to our, our nonprofit and, and YouTube doesn't skim 30%.

John Dehlin [01:24:28] So anyway, we'll try and make sure

John Dehlin [01:24:31] to remind people of this. Thanks, Gerardo. We love you and we appreciate that.

John Dehlin [01:24:35] Give her up for Gerardo. We love you, Gerardo, who's MVP of

Carah Burrell [01:24:39] the Brad Wilcox week.

John Dehlin [01:24:40] Absolutely. And of many other weeks. Love you, Gerardo.

John Dehlin [01:24:44] Okay, so that's kind of like. That explains. That explains the, the massive building of temples.

John Dehlin [01:24:52] It's.

John Dehlin [01:24:52] It's literally just kind of like a Russell M. Nelson flex. It's a Russell M. Nelson legacy move that's detached from probably a real concern

John Dehlin [01:25:04] for the health and well being of,

John Dehlin [01:25:06] of the world and people in poverty.

John Dehlin [01:25:09] But it's also disconnected from any reality of like, you know, active membership, faithful membership, temple recommend holding membership, or Mormon membership, desiring to actually enter the temple. We now know it's literally just a legacy move, potentially by Russell M. Nelson.

Carah Burrell [01:25:27] Interesting. Who would have thought that somebody who's 90 years old with a, you know, a trillion dollars in their back pocket might not make the wisest financial decisions? I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:25:37] I mean, or it's a good financial decision. Maybe that's part of our secret. Like, maybe it encourages more people to be pay tithing if they know they can go to the temple.

John Dehlin [01:25:45] I don't know. I don't know. I mean, are you going to question Russell M. Nelson's decisions as it relates

John Dehlin [01:25:50] to, you know, what I think the church cares a lot about, which is its finances.

Carah Burrell [01:25:54] That's what I do for a living, John.

John Dehlin [01:25:56] But he seems to the Church seems

John Dehlin [01:25:58] to be top notch at fundraising. You know what I'm saying? At growing its financial assets.

Carah Burrell [01:26:03] So, I mean, growing their financial assets while membership goes on an opposite statistical thing. You can have. You can have a billion dollars, but if you only have a stronghold of, like, a million people for. And then that just dwindles and stuff. It's like you're the king of Diaper Mountain.

John Dehlin [01:26:21] All right, Carah, so I'm just gonna ask you.

John Dehlin [01:26:23] Would you rather have, you know, $10 million and, you know, 10 million followers

John Dehlin [01:26:31] or $300 billion and 2 million followers? Which would you rather have?

Carah Burrell [01:26:36] I'd rather have friends and people to actually look up to me. Money. Money don't cost a thing. Friends don't cost a thing.

John Dehlin [01:26:41] Well, that's why. That's why you're not leading the Mormon Church. Yeah, we just.

Carah Burrell [01:26:45] Priorities.

John Dehlin [01:26:46] Not leading the Mormon Church. Yeah, we need men to do that, because men turns out.

Carah Burrell [01:26:50] Don't you guys remember blank check from the 90s where the kid gets all of that money, but he has no. He buys all the things he ever wanted and he has no friends? Because it's really weird to be a kid with, like, a million dollars. It's kind of what I think it's like. Yeah, you got the whole candy store, but nobody's coming to visit.

John Dehlin [01:27:05] So hot take.

John Dehlin [01:27:07] Hot take from Care Barrel, everybody.

John Dehlin [01:27:09] You. I want. I want you guys to mention in the chat, would you rather have 300 or $500 billion and less. Less followers or.

John Dehlin [01:27:18] Or less money and more followers? We want to hear from you, dear listeners.

John Dehlin [01:27:22] Okay, another. Really?

Guest [01:27:24] What?

Carah Burrell [01:27:25] Also, I have a joke.

John Dehlin [01:27:26] Okay, joke.

Carah Burrell [01:27:27] If you guys were also wondering. Carah, me, I am in charge of making the thumbnails for these Mormon Scoops episodes, so that's why they look so different than the normal Mormon stories ones. Because I want to have a different vibe for these Mormon Scoops episodes. And somebody was commenting that they look very 90s. They have, like, Zack Morris's cell phone at the bottom. And that was intentional because I wanted to get graphics from the same decade and references like to blank check. I want to get all my references from the same. Same decade that the Mormon Church still had. Relevance.

John Dehlin [01:27:54] So relevance, but a bump.

John Dehlin [01:27:59] Okay, that was good.

Carah Burrell [01:28:00] I am the least nuanced hoe in the room right now.

John Dehlin [01:28:04] More. Sorry, More red belt for Carol.

Carah Burrell [01:28:05] I'm having a good time.

John Dehlin [01:28:06] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:28:07] This is fun. So we're almost at 2,000 live, you know, viewers of our. Of our livestream. That's a big deal. I don't know that we've ever reached 2,000 before, so that's fun. Thanks for joining us, everybody. Thanks for all the super chats and donations.

Guest [01:28:22] More.

John Dehlin [01:28:23] And yet there's more care. We're not done. So another really interesting piece of intel is that a new temple prep course is coming out with video of the actual endowment sessions, temple clothing being worn, etc, and we have David Bednar to thank. So, I mean, I think, I think this is kind of significant. Now, I don't know if we thank, you know, you know, Prophet Search and revelators and David Bednar for making this happen. Maybe in part this is revelation, but I think we also have to give a shout out to anyone who's ever

Temple Changes and New Worthiness Policies

John Dehlin [01:28:58] published the temple ceremony on the Internet

John Dehlin [01:29:02] or, you know, tiktokers, I guess, that

John Dehlin [01:29:05] now habitually are making tiktoks in their temple guard.

John Dehlin [01:29:08] Yeah, but I think the church has

John Dehlin [01:29:10] realized, you know, we can't be the Masonic Lodge anymore. We can't keep these secret oaths and handshakes and temple clothing secret anymore.

John Dehlin [01:29:19] And maybe, Carah, maybe they've been listening to us about informed consent, that people actually deserve to know what they're going to be doing and wearing and promising and covenanting to and doing.

John Dehlin [01:29:32] And so maybe we should, we should train them and let them know ahead of time.

Carah Burrell [01:29:36] Yeah, if we know you've sat in this chair for so long having interviews with people where they said they were unprepared for the clothing, the garb, the rituals of the chanting, everything, and that gave them a negative temple experience. You don't want that. I don't want that. Ex Mormons, Mormons, Church leaders do not want people to have negative temple experiences. And wouldn't it just make sense that the best way for them to have a slightly more positive one is them having informed consent and knowing what they're going to get into. Like that benefits everybody by having this. So praise to the man Bednar.

John Dehlin [01:30:05] Praise to Bednar. And praise to everyone who's ever disclosed the temple ceremony, you know, the video,

John Dehlin [01:30:14] the, you know, worn temple clothing.

John Dehlin [01:30:17] I mean, it's, it's unfortunate that that level of disrespect had to be engaged

John Dehlin [01:30:22] in to coerce the Mormon Church to become more transparent and to provide informed consent. But that's what happened.

John Dehlin [01:30:29] And you know, let's give credit where

John Dehlin [01:30:30] credit is due if it's true that Bednar is behind it. Thank you, David Bednar.

John Dehlin [01:30:35] We have more news regarding the temple.

John Dehlin [01:30:39] It we have heard from a source, a friend of the podcast, that new

John Dehlin [01:30:45] endowment movies are in the works. And I have good news for you, Carah.

John Dehlin [01:30:49] These Endowment movies were not directed by known sexual predator Sterling Von Wagner, who is now in prison.

John Dehlin [01:30:57] He, of course, many don't know this. Sterling Von Wagner sexually molested Sean Escobar and probably several other young men in,

John Dehlin [01:31:07] let's just say the 80s or 90s.

Carah Burrell [01:31:09] Heads up. Mormon Enlightenment, Right?

John Dehlin [01:31:11] He was disfellowshipped.

John Dehlin [01:31:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:31:12] Heads up to shout out to Crystal

John Dehlin [01:31:13] and Sean Escobar and the Mormon Enlightenment Facebook group.

John Dehlin [01:31:18] The church knew this at the time. The church quietly disfellowshipped Sterling Von Wagner because he was a wealthy prominent member who knew Robert Redford.

John Dehlin [01:31:27] He was one of the co founders of Sundance.

John Dehlin [01:31:29] And then later, Sterling Von Wagden was asked, as a known sex offender to. And of course, the church prohibited family

John Dehlin [01:31:42] members and abuse victims from going to the police to. To kind of report this.

Carah Burrell [01:31:47] Talk about more. Oh, my gosh.

John Dehlin [01:31:49] But later, just in the past, like, 10 years, the church said, hey, Sterling Von Wagner, we know about your past

John Dehlin [01:31:55] as a sexual predator.

John Dehlin [01:31:57] Let's have you direct the new Temple Ceremony movies. Those were the ones that came out

John Dehlin [01:32:02] in the late 2000 and tens or mid to late 2000 and tens. And let's say mid 2000 and tens. And. And then. Then it was discovered that Sterling Von Wagner had more victims, and he ends up in prison. And.

John Dehlin [01:32:18] And, you know, we don't mean to be hard on him, but, you know,

John Dehlin [01:32:23] the church needs to drop this idea of. Of kind of discernment that the leaders have discernment that we can trust in their discernment. And. And.

John Dehlin [01:32:32] But. But the good news is the. Apparently the new Endowment movies in the

John Dehlin [01:32:37] works will not be directed by Sterling Van Wagner.

Carah Burrell [01:32:40] Yeah, that's like silver lighting, small change, like.

John Dehlin [01:32:45] I think David Bednar calls that Tender mercies.

Guest [01:32:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:32:49] Is this a dark joke?

Guest [01:32:50] This is.

Carah Burrell [01:32:50] No, it's just I.

John Dehlin [01:32:51] Do we get dark.

Carah Burrell [01:32:51] I. I mean, anyone who sat in an Endowment session, that you've already seen the movie, like, you know, 20 times at that point in your life. It's. It's a. It's as if somebody's saying, I know you don't like this movie, but wait, it just got worse. And it's like, I can't handle any more bad news about this movie. And it's like it's all just a depressing ball again sitting on the top of Diaper Mountain.

John Dehlin [01:33:14] Well, we'll see how the new Temple

John Dehlin [01:33:16] Endowment Ceremony movies, because one thing's for sure come out. Someone's gonna film them and put them on the Internet.

John Dehlin [01:33:23] Right.

John Dehlin [01:33:23] I mean, maybe that's gonna happen. Maybe.

Guest [01:33:25] Joke.

John Dehlin [01:33:25] Anyway, what was the joke?

Carah Burrell [01:33:26] Said one thing will be for sure. Eve will be hot.

John Dehlin [01:33:29] Evil be hot.

John Dehlin [01:33:30] What about Adam?

John Dehlin [01:33:31] What about Satan?

John Dehlin [01:33:32] Is it loose for hot?

Carah Burrell [01:33:33] Yeah, Satan. Satan does it for me, actually.

John Dehlin [01:33:35] But yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:33:36] Yeah. I always think that it's kind of funny that she can show her shoulders in that. In, like, the most sacred venue in the church, and if somebody walked into that room with their shoulders showing, they would be escorted out of the building immediately. But she's allowed to be, like, 20ft tall on a big projector.

John Dehlin [01:33:50] It's.

Guest [01:33:51] It's.

John Dehlin [01:33:52] It's a paradox.

Carah Burrell [01:33:53] Yeah, that's at least the least of what it is. A sexy paradox.

John Dehlin [01:33:58] All right.

John Dehlin [01:34:00] I hear Jen laughing in the background.

John Dehlin [01:34:01] Jen. Jen likes your jokes.

John Dehlin [01:34:03] Jen gets your jokes. I'm. I do, too.

Guest [01:34:05] Great.

John Dehlin [01:34:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:34:06] High five. Knuckles.

John Dehlin [01:34:07] Okay, one. At least one more piece of news, and this will be the final segment of the episode. And then we're gonna have to share the link of Streamyard with all of you so that you can start calling

John Dehlin [01:34:25] in, because it's time to.

Carah Burrell [01:34:26] What do we want them to call in about?

Guest [01:34:27] Who.

Carah Burrell [01:34:27] Who are we propositioning here?

John Dehlin [01:34:29] Yeah. So why don't you tell them while I paste the link in the YouTube description?

John Dehlin [01:34:34] Is that all right? Can you.

John Dehlin [01:34:35] Can you guide the conversation for a

John Dehlin [01:34:37] second while I do that?

Carah Burrell [01:34:38] I honestly don't know what we want people to specifically call in and talk about. That's just.

John Dehlin [01:34:42] Any reactions to today's episode?

Carah Burrell [01:34:43] Okay, Just reactions. Maybe you have some intel. Maybe you are a sitting stake president. You don't have to be. We're not gatekeeping here. You can just be, you know, in the nursery. It doesn't matter. We want to have people call in and talk about what is. What's. Help us put our finger on the pulse of what's happening in your local area and congregations or just your reactions to this episode. Any other points that we missed? I'm sure there's a lot of them about, you know, temples, youth membership, missions. What. What are your reactions? What do you have to say? Yeah, does that basically summarize it? And then our lovely new Mormon Stories employee over there, Jen, who is beautiful, she's actually ravishing. She changed our life for the better. And I'm not just saying that because she cleaned up the Mormon Story studio and laughs at all of my jokes. That's the least of the things she's done. She's also. We're going to be announcing at the end of the program some amazing what's the word I'm looking for.

Guest [01:35:39] Faith.

Carah Burrell [01:35:40] Faith.

John Dehlin [01:35:41] Faith Crisis.

Carah Burrell [01:35:42] Faith Crisis events, Support groups. Support groups. That's what I was looking for. Support groups that she's been working really hard. We're gonna start promoting those. And so if you're in Faith Crisis and you need extra support, we're gonna have a whole program to help you with that. So Jen's a rock star. When a hero comes along, that's. That's our hero. Is Jen over there? And somebody asked earlier, has Carah been smoking a little? Marky? I actually haven't. It literally is just a nap. And being with Margi today, Margi is. She's the drug. Margi's the drug. When I'm around Margi, drugs are not necessary. That's how much she invigorates me. So this is a nap and Margi.

John Dehlin [01:36:23] Okay. And Jen's agreeing.

John Dehlin [01:36:24] Okay, thank you for that. Thank you for that. You were able to, to give me enough time to paste now the Streamyard link into the Facebook comments and the YouTube comments. And I've also pasted them into the YouTube description. So what we want to do now is invite you, the listeners and viewers to join us. Make sure you enable your camera, make sure you enable your microphone. Join us right now in the live stream. We would love to be getting hot takes from you as you join. And before we actually start bringing on our callers and listeners, we have one last piece of news. This source that I talked with actually told us one last cool bit of news. And that bit of news is the following, that there are new policies coming

John Dehlin [01:37:19] down regarding one on one interviews regarding sexual worthiness that are going to be

John Dehlin [01:37:24] much more strict and much more prescriptive.

Carah Burrell [01:37:27] More strict.

John Dehlin [01:37:28] More strict in terms of what questions

John Dehlin [01:37:31] leaders aren't able to ask.

Carah Burrell [01:37:32] So better. So better. We're moving in the right direction.

John Dehlin [01:37:35] So we are because of Sam Young. Shout out to Sam Young because of his amazing work. My inside source from this stake along the Wasatch front who has spoken with inside church leaders has told me that

John Dehlin [01:37:50] we can expect and I misspelled worthiness there.

John Dehlin [01:37:54] We can expect the church to even go farther, basically really limiting what bishops, what questions bishops and stake presidents and

John Dehlin [01:38:03] mission presidents are and aren't allowed to

John Dehlin [01:38:04] ask in terms of sexuality. We have been Sam Young protect LDS children. We on Mormon stories. We have been hammering the Mormon Church

John Dehlin [01:38:13] over the past, you know, five to 10 years about how inappropriate it is these one on one interviews asking sexually explicit questions.

John Dehlin [01:38:20] And it looks like that is going to change for the better along With I think, the ability to bring other

John Dehlin [01:38:28] people in to the interviews.

John Dehlin [01:38:31] So I, I don't have much more to say on that for now, but

John Dehlin [01:38:36] we're really excited about it. And shout out again to Sam Young and everyone at Protect LDS Children who's made that possible.

Carah Burrell [01:38:42] Amazing.

Reactions and Analysis from Callers

John Dehlin [01:38:43] Okay, so now I, I hope you guys have enjoyed. Carah. I hope. Was that interesting? Was that worth. Was this just clickbait or was this actually worth, you know, the headline?

John Dehlin [01:38:53] What do you think?

Carah Burrell [01:38:54] Hugely worth. We put a question mark on it. In decline. No, it's. Exclamation point. Don't put a question mark on that. Put in a.

Speaker J [01:39:00] Put.

Carah Burrell [01:39:00] No, put it. Don't put a question mark. Shut up.

John Dehlin [01:39:03] Okay. All right. No, that's good. I, I hope. Carrot. Did you.

John Dehlin [01:39:07] Did you feel like this information was interesting and worthwhile?

Carah Burrell [01:39:11] I have never been more, like, jazzed. I'm a. Oh, yeah. People, it's. It's Marky. It's a nap. And it's also like recognizing that we could retire tomorrow. We'll be here for people in faith crisis, but we don't have to do anything. Like, the church will, like, it's. It's crumbling before our eyes.

Speaker O [01:39:32] It's.

John Dehlin [01:39:32] There you go again. Like, we don't know. Maybe these changes are going to lead to the. The church getting more healthy and more healthy. Stronger.

Carah Burrell [01:39:39] They'll be more healthy. But I mean, the day the Internet was invented and it's been.

John Dehlin [01:39:45] All right, so.

Carah Burrell [01:39:46] Carah, I'm not, I'm not nuanced today.

John Dehlin [01:39:48] I'm not nuanced. I'm holding space for the possibility that these changes might make the church stronger in the end. Who knows, Carah? Who knows? Hope springs eternal.

Carah Burrell [01:39:58] Yeah, this is John. You wouldn't get a temple recommend right now because it looks like you're not.

John Dehlin [01:40:02] Are you saying my nose is growing?

Carah Burrell [01:40:04] No. Yeah, I'm saying you're not having honest interactions with your fellow woman.

John Dehlin [01:40:07] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:40:08] All right. Now's the time to bring on our. Some of our listeners, and we'll just ask people. Keep it pg. Don't be rude, don't be mean, don't be a cynic like Carah is today. And keep it short. And we want to bring on as many of you as possible to provide perspective. And I'm super happy to know that our first guest is going to be Gerardo Sumano.

Carah Burrell [01:40:32] Gerardo, welcome to Mormon Scoops.

John Dehlin [01:40:34] Joining us. Gerardo, what's going on, brother?

Speaker U [01:40:37] Hey, guys. I just hopped on just last minute from my kitchen just to say hi, man. I. I didn't even know about.

Guest 2 [01:40:47] I mean, you.

Speaker U [01:40:48] You've had that. All that information for. For a while.

John Dehlin [01:40:51] I've been holding out on you, Gerardo.

Speaker U [01:40:52] I know. I didn't know a lot of that stuff. It's kind of.

John Dehlin [01:40:57] I. I mean, what was the most

John Dehlin [01:40:58] interesting thing to you or what were some of the most interesting things to you that are. That you'd want to mention or any other takes that you want to mention?

Speaker U [01:41:06] Well, it was kind of pretty compatible with what I've heard from other people, you know, here in the Wasatch front about people losing their faith. I. I have friends from byu, Idaho, who have contacted me now and who have now lost their faith. That's kind of been there again experience. It was because of COVID and not going to church anymore, you know, that kind of like started making them. Allowing them to. To think a little bit about just the shelf items that they. That they had, you know. So, yeah, I. I thought it was really interesting about the temple department saying that they're kind of scrambling and struggling with President Nelson's announcements. It just reminded me in some occasion, I think you had a. Someone in Mormon stories talking about how usually when employees in the church, even the ones that work really closely with apostles, they're not really willing to tell them, like, what their struggles or what, like the tasks that they're being like, are asking employees to do are, like, hard or impossible. They kind of want to treat them like, you know, just keep them with the super superficial, super positive stuff. So sometimes apostles don't really get, you know, the truth about how things are. Are really what. How things are, you know, kind of being hard for church employees. So.

John Dehlin [01:42:38] Yeah, like, when I worked at Microsoft,

John Dehlin [01:42:39] there was this idea like, you don't,

John Dehlin [01:42:41] you know, a lot of people are

John Dehlin [01:42:43] afraid to give Bill Gates bad news. Right. And there's that whole king has. King has no clothes. You don't ever tell the king they don't have clothes. And the shoot the messenger deal. And I've heard that at church headquarters, people are not into being honest and open with the top church leaders. And whenever you have a patriarchy and a culture that. That encourages leader worship to too much of an extent, you're not going to get good intel that helps you make good decisions. That's a good point, Gerard.

Speaker O [01:43:13] Yeah.

Speaker U [01:43:13] Yeah. And that's all I wanted to say.

John Dehlin [01:43:15] All right, well, we love you. Thanks, Gerardo. Salute, Gerardo. We're not worthy. Thanks for all you do for more mysterious MVP trophy.

John Dehlin [01:43:22] Thanks, Gerardo.

John Dehlin [01:43:24] Thanks for joining us.

Speaker U [01:43:25] We'll talk Soon.

John Dehlin [01:43:26] All right, we'll see you soon.

John Dehlin [01:43:28] Well, I'm super, I'm super excited that Maven is joining us. Maven, you, Maven, don't you help out with, with, you know, Bill Real and Radio Free Mormon and Mormonism Live?

Speaker Q [01:43:40] Yes, I do. I'd like to think that I'm helping out. Yeah, that's what people are saying so far. So as long as people are saying it, then I'll believe it and I'm happy to keep doing it.

John Dehlin [01:43:49] And we're huge fans of Mormonism Live. That's why we will never hold a live stream intentionally. Sometimes we forget, but we're committed to never holding intentionally a live stream on Wednesday evening because at 6:20 mountain time, Bill Real and Radio Free Mormon and Maven bring to you Mormonism Live. And we believe that in the ex Mormon world, a rising tide lifts all ships.

Carah Burrell [01:44:09] Yeah.

Speaker Q [01:44:10] Yes, yes. And we appreciate you guys too. And we, we reference you guys as well in your show on ours. So it's nice to have the partnership and. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:18] So Maven, what, what did you, was this, was this just clickbait or did you have any reactions to today's episode?

Carah Burrell [01:44:24] I mean, I had a, I had

Speaker Q [01:44:25] a few different thoughts, but I'll just, I'll just stick to one. I get a question for you guys. So I was thinking about the number of the, we'll say like the, the ultra conservative, the maybe the doomsday last days types who are leaving the church over their cognitive dissonance. I almost feel like it's because the church isn't, I guess, old fashioned enough or even crazy enough sometimes for them, and that's why they're leaving. And I'm just not sure if that's a good thing or not. Are they leaving for even worse things or, you know, things that are going to see more violence and more escalation potentially in the future as they feel they're getting backed into a corner by government conspiracy or gay agendas and all of these things. Or once they're out of the church, do you think eventually they might start coming around? What do you think is kind of the general, what's happening to these people who are leaving the church and where are they going? What's their journey?

John Dehlin [01:45:21] That's such a great question, Maven.

John Dehlin [01:45:22] I mean, some are following Denver Snuffer,

John Dehlin [01:45:25] you know, believing that they can get their own witness of Christ and doing kind of these, these meetings in their homes, kind of home church where they're

John Dehlin [01:45:33] empowered, reading Denver Snuffer scriptures, passing the

John Dehlin [01:45:36] sacrament to each Other with their own authority.

John Dehlin [01:45:39] There's that going on.

John Dehlin [01:45:40] There's those that are following, people like

John Dehlin [01:45:41] Julie, Julie Rowe and others that have emerged as kind of apocalyptic Mormon social media stars. And that doesn't bode well because we know that.

John Dehlin [01:45:51] That.

John Dehlin [01:45:51] That is the culture that literally led

John Dehlin [01:45:53] to Julie Rowe and Chad Dade Bell.

John Dehlin [01:45:55] Sorry, Chad Dade Bell and Lori Valo and the.

John Dehlin [01:45:58] The death of those beautiful children that were innocent.

John Dehlin [01:46:02] Yeah, it's a scary thought. I think a lot of schismatic churches

John Dehlin [01:46:06] are going to be developing. Maven, that's not good.

John Dehlin [01:46:10] Although you could argue that maybe the church would be better off without these kind of designat types that would tend to potentially create a culture within the

John Dehlin [01:46:21] church, ward or stake environment that would make a lot of other people want to leave.

John Dehlin [01:46:25] So from the church's standpoint, there might be a good riddance element of, like, separating the wheat from the tares on the right of the spectrum. What's that?

Speaker Q [01:46:33] But the church's teachings really laid the foundation for that. Like when you say chickens coming home to roost or buy their fruits, I guess you could say the church, almost everything the church does really, actually supports conspiratorial thinking where, you know, your authorities are who versus, you know, data and things like that. I guess I just thought of one more question. You said it's a big thing, so I'm wondering, are there more people leaving and on this extreme, you know, this. This extreme end of things, or is it still more people who are just leaving because they're unhappy or because they don't believe or, you know, because it's not working for them? You know what I mean?

John Dehlin [01:47:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:47:09] This.

John Dehlin [01:47:09] This Stake High Councilman member said that the number of people leaving for kind of faith reasons, LGBTQ reasons, progressive reasons, is a fraction.

Guest [01:47:18] He.

John Dehlin [01:47:19] I think he said five times the

John Dehlin [01:47:20] number in his stake are leaving because they're ultra conservative. Five times are leaving because of that then for liberal or progressive reasons, which

John Dehlin [01:47:31] I don't know if it's true, but

Speaker Q [01:47:32] I don't know how I feel about that. I just don't know if that's a good thing or not.

John Dehlin [01:47:37] I know.

John Dehlin [01:47:38] Maven, I want to. I want to. I want to extend you an invitation

John Dehlin [01:47:41] to come tell your story on Mormon Stories podcast.

John Dehlin [01:47:43] You heard it first here. We'd love to have you, if you want. If you want to tell your story

John Dehlin [01:47:49] on Mormon Stories podcast. We'd love to have you. So reach out to us and we'll get that on the schedule if you want to.

John Dehlin [01:47:54] But thanks so much for all you do. You are sharp and we need more

John Dehlin [01:47:58] people like you in the conversation.

Speaker Q [01:48:01] Thank you, John.

John Dehlin [01:48:02] I appreciate it. All right, stay in touch, Maven.

John Dehlin [01:48:04] Come again.

John Dehlin [01:48:05] Okay.

Speaker Q [01:48:05] All right.

John Dehlin [01:48:07] All right. Thanks, Maven. Now we have. See, now we have Jeremy Heiner, who has been waiting for a bit.

Guest [01:48:18] Hey.

John Dehlin [01:48:19] Hey, Jeremy. How's it going?

Speaker J [01:48:21] Good. How are you?

John Dehlin [01:48:22] Good.

Carah Burrell [01:48:22] Jeremy, you're on with Karen John on Mormon Scoops. What do you got for us?

John Dehlin [01:48:26] You guys, you're rocking your BYU shirt. Are you calling as a BYU student?

Speaker J [01:48:30] Former BYU student, graduated in 2015.

John Dehlin [01:48:33] Go Cougars.

Speaker J [01:48:34] Yeah, well, yeah, but, yeah, the Charlie Bird story really caught my eye today. I mean, it's been interesting to watch his journey. I. I remember because I'm. I'm a gay former Mormon now. Exmo. I guess you could say I was where he was at a few years ago, like 10 years ago. And so it's been interesting to watch his journey. And I would place money on that. In five years, he's going to be, if not completely out of the church, certainly reduced. Because in his podcast today, he mentioned as soon as he graduates from byu, he's gonna go date his boyfriend. Like, for reals.

Carah Burrell [01:49:17] How are you supposed to stay in the church?

Speaker J [01:49:18] Yeah. In an open same sex relationship.

Speaker K [01:49:20] Yeah.

Speaker J [01:49:21] And he also did reference Mormon Stories podcast in his little podcast.

John Dehlin [01:49:25] That's true.

Speaker J [01:49:27] By name. But he did mention, you guys, he

John Dehlin [01:49:30] followed the Voldemort rule of kind of

John Dehlin [01:49:32] like he who shall not be named.

John Dehlin [01:49:34] So he said, yeah, that he heard a podcast, had talked about, you know,

John Dehlin [01:49:39] him and Ben and that, that on

John Dehlin [01:49:42] the one hand, they wanted to say that they didn't listen to the podcast and that it was kind of full of misrepresentations. And then on the other. So how do they know it was

John Dehlin [01:49:53] full of misrepresentations if they didn't listen to it? Because it really wasn't about them. It was about the position they hold.

John Dehlin [01:49:59] But then on the other hand, they. They acknowledged that what we were speculating about was actually, in fact true and that they were dating like we.

John Dehlin [01:50:07] We thought they might based on the intelligence we'd received.

John Dehlin [01:50:10] So we all know how this plays out.

John Dehlin [01:50:13] They're going to be, you know, within five to 10 years, they're going to be out of the church and apologizing to everyone for what they did. What do you think?

Speaker J [01:50:20] My guess.

John Dehlin [01:50:20] What do you think?

Speaker J [01:50:21] 100%. That's how happened to me. I mean, I used to be the biggest, like, fan of the church. The whole reason I went to byu, Idaho was to, I Guess pray the gay away, but that didn't work. And, you know, came out the day after I got my diploma publicly on Facebook and haven't looked back since. It's been an amazing journey.

John Dehlin [01:50:41] Well, we are. We are just so delighted that you would join us, Jeremy. Thanks for following us on Mormon Stories.

John Dehlin [01:50:47] We really appreciate it.

Speaker J [01:50:48] Thanks for having me.

John Dehlin [01:50:49] Please stay in touch. All right, brother.

Speaker J [01:50:51] Yeah, we'll do. Take care, guys.

Speaker Q [01:50:52] All right.

John Dehlin [01:50:52] Thanks, Jeremy.

Carah Burrell [01:50:53] Thanks, Jeremy.

John Dehlin [01:50:54] All right, next on the show is Kendall.

Carah Burrell [01:50:58] Kendall.

John Dehlin [01:50:59] Kendall. How you doing? Let's unmute you. I'll unmute you. Where are you joining us from, Kendall?

Guest [01:51:04] What?

John Dehlin [01:51:05] Where are you joining us from?

Carah Burrell [01:51:06] Daybreak.

John Dehlin [01:51:07] Oh, Daybreak. We mentioned you in the episode. Yeah, what's up?

Guest [01:51:12] Daybreak actually is fairly different. It's more than Provo.

Carah Burrell [01:51:17] It's more progressive.

Guest [01:51:19] There's really not a whole lot of Mormonism going on. If not, I know more people who are never mouse here.

John Dehlin [01:51:26] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:51:27] All right. Well, Carah, you stand corrected.

Carah Burrell [01:51:29] What did I say? I said they're all pretty much the same.

John Dehlin [01:51:31] Did you say all the Mormons from Daybreak down to.

John Dehlin [01:51:34] To Spanish Fork are the same?

Carah Burrell [01:51:35] I think, Kendall, correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like Daybreak is because it's like this planned community of, you know, houses that were all just been built recently. There's not like a lot of holdover, like long generational Mormons in a certain area that you'd get in like the Provo neighborhood I might. Might have grown up in or in Draper where people have been in a neighborhood for a long time. There's a lot of transplants you could say today. Break. It's my guess.

Guest [01:51:57] Very true.

John Dehlin [01:51:58] Well, tell us what you've. Tell us what you've got for us. You know, any reactions or comments?

Guest [01:52:03] I think one of the biggest things for me is that when guys were saying that now they're now like the Brethren leaders are saying that

Guest [01:52:13] not to

Guest [01:52:13] take Gerald Conference talks as pure, like

Guest [01:52:18] guidance for things to answer questions.

Guest [01:52:20] Because since I was like 12, it has been aggressively taught pray before you watch General Conference, have your notebook, find your answers, follow it as modern day scripture. I just find that very interesting how now that's totally being taken aback and I'm just kind of like. It feels very discrediting to me.

Guest [01:52:47] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:52:47] Cause somebody.

John Dehlin [01:52:48] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:52:48] They'll say that you'll find personal revelation. If you have like you pray before you have an answer on your mind or you have a question on your mind, go into General Conference and it'll be something that'll like, that'll be your answer. Like, listen, with a pure intent and an open heart and. Yeah, that's. That's a really good point. That's going to lead to a lot of dangerous personal revelations.

John Dehlin [01:53:08] Is that making you sad, Kendall?

Guest [01:53:09] A little bit, or it's just kind

Guest [01:53:12] of like, I don't know, just after being told, like, so much and they're taking back, I'm like, okay, where was this before? Why is it now?

John Dehlin [01:53:23] Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. That's a good point, Kendall.

John Dehlin [01:53:28] Well, we really appreciate you calling in

John Dehlin [01:53:30] and sharing your perspective. It's so fun to have you. I hope we can meet you in person someday.

Carah Burrell [01:53:35] She was at my party.

Guest [01:53:36] I'm like, you met me, John.

John Dehlin [01:53:37] Oh, crap. I just got embarrassed.

Guest [01:53:40] Yeah, I can't remember.

John Dehlin [01:53:41] Well, you weren't wearing that red sweater, so. A sweatshirt.

Guest 2 [01:53:44] No, I wasn't.

Carah Burrell [01:53:45] She had her hair up.

John Dehlin [01:53:46] Are you buds with. Are you buds with Carah?

Carah Burrell [01:53:48] I hadn't met before that night, but now we are.

John Dehlin [01:53:51] I'm friends with Tim.

John Dehlin [01:53:52] Thanks for embarrassing me, everybody. You guys.

Carah Burrell [01:53:54] That's how you were so wasted, dude.

John Dehlin [01:53:56] It's just like, yeah, I was too

John Dehlin [01:53:57] wasted at the party.

John Dehlin [01:53:58] I was waste. I was just out of control.

John Dehlin [01:54:00] Anyway, okay. It's nice to meet you again, Kendyl.

Carah Burrell [01:54:03] Love ya.

John Dehlin [01:54:04] Thanks for joining us.

John Dehlin [01:54:07] Now I'm embarrassed. I feel shame.

Carah Burrell [01:54:09] His cheeks are red. Look at him.

More Listener Calls and Personal Stories

John Dehlin [01:54:12] All right, next to join us is Callie. Let's unmute you, Callie. And where are you joining us from? Callie?

Speaker V [01:54:23] Hi.

Speaker M [01:54:23] I am joining you from Okinawa, Japan, with military. Yeah, My husband and I got kicked out of byu, Idaho. He was my fag brother, and now I met in Okinawa.

John Dehlin [01:54:37] I don't want to make jokes about

John Dehlin [01:54:38] something that was probably really traumatic for you guys.

Speaker M [01:54:42] It was the best thing that ever happened to me. I graduated from uvu.

Speaker O [01:54:46] What up?

Speaker M [01:54:46] What up?

John Dehlin [01:54:47] Wolverine, right?

John Dehlin [01:54:48] Wolverine fighting Wolverines.

Carah Burrell [01:54:50] She said you say uvu.

Guest [01:54:51] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:54:52] Okay.

Speaker M [01:54:52] Yeah. Uvu.

Speaker Q [01:54:54] Yeah.

Speaker M [01:54:54] I graduated uvu. Best thing that ever happened to me.

Guest 2 [01:54:57] Oh, good.

John Dehlin [01:54:57] Oh, good.

Speaker M [01:54:59] Yeah. So I have been looking forward to this episode because it's been so validating. My family has been very Denver snuffer for my whole life. It terrified me. And there's the moderate side and the extreme side. So it's validating to see that this is not a phenomena just in my family. But watching Covid specifically bring my moderate family members over to the more conspiratorial side. Seeing my family members say things like, I believe that the Lord will lead the prophet astray. You know, it's interesting to watch them kind of undo their faith

Carah Burrell [01:55:42] over these issues.

Speaker M [01:55:44] So it's fascinating to see that this is not just a phenomenon in my family, but it's much broader.

John Dehlin [01:55:52] Yeah. Is that comforting or disturbing? Which is it?

Speaker M [01:55:55] Oh, God.

John Dehlin [01:55:56] I guess it's validating. It's got to be validating.

Speaker M [01:55:59] It's very validating. And, yeah, just fascinating because some of us have left because we are more progressive. And so seeing that the church is being pulled in both ways, I can't imagine being the church trying to toe that line. Very. Yeah, very interesting. A lot of family members leaving over vaccination issues and worries that the church is being led astray by the devil or by the Democrats or whoever it may be.

John Dehlin [01:56:33] So it's kind of bizarro world. A little bit.

Speaker M [01:56:36] Yeah, a little bit.

John Dehlin [01:56:38] Well, Callie, it's so fun you're freaking joining us from Japan.

Carah Burrell [01:56:41] I was like, it looks like daylight there. I was like, yeah, It's.

Speaker M [01:56:45] It is 1:06pm tomorrow.

John Dehlin [01:56:47] That's awesome.

Speaker M [01:56:48] We're finding some ex Mormons out there.

John Dehlin [01:56:49] What's tomorrow like? Tell us what tomorrow's like. What do we have to look forward to?

Speaker M [01:56:53] Tomorrow is rainy and wonderful.

Guest [01:56:56] Yeah.

Speaker M [01:56:57] Well, thank you for everything you guys do. Seriously helped me and my husband tremendously.

John Dehlin [01:57:02] Well, we love it. We love our jobs, and we're grateful you called in. Say hi to.

John Dehlin [01:57:06] Say hi to your dear husband.

John Dehlin [01:57:08] All right.

Speaker M [01:57:08] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:57:09] Thanks, Kelly. Thanks for calling.

Speaker M [01:57:10] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:57:11] All right, let's go to Trevor. Trevor's been waiting patiently. I'll unmute Trevor.

Carah Burrell [01:57:19] Trevor, you're on with John and Carah on Mormon scoops. What do you got for us?

Guest [01:57:22] Hey, guys. Love your shows. I've been watching for about a year. But John, you made a comment about how the temple video is coming out to, like, they'll show what's happening in the temple. And the other night on a late night drive, I was watching, I think the Do Mormons Get Their Own Planet? Podcast and you made a comment saying that ex mos will complain about the church not changing, and then when the church does change, that will complain about it. And when you said that tonight about the. The new video coming out, it felt for me. I can always speak for me being out of the church for 10 years, it's not that they change their position. It's how they're not discussing while why they're changing it. That's what my issue is. I don't mind people changing their views or. Or positions. It's, let's be honest and up front about Wild Why they're changing it. That's all I wanted to say. You guys are great.

John Dehlin [01:58:40] Oh, my gosh. Trevor, can I just say there's so

John Dehlin [01:58:42] much I love about your comment.

John Dehlin [01:58:43] Number one, we are. We don't want to be the new prophets, gurus. So we love people challenging us. We want to be called on our stuff. So I love that.

John Dehlin [01:58:52] Thank you for talking truth to us and your perspective.

John Dehlin [01:58:56] Thanks for calling us out. I think you're right. It is hypocritical of post Mormons or liberal Mormons if they're calling for change. And then they make fun of or. Or criticize or denigrate the change. That's a great point. And then your point about we should be celebrating change in good change. And honestly, it was my intent to do that.

Carah Burrell [01:59:16] I think we did that.

John Dehlin [01:59:17] We tried a little bit to do that. But you make a good point that it should be celebrated and encouraged, not belittled and made fun of and mocked.

John Dehlin [01:59:25] But then.

Speaker I [01:59:26] Right.

Guest [01:59:26] And.

John Dehlin [01:59:27] Yeah, go ahead.

Speaker O [01:59:27] Oh, sorry.

Speaker J [01:59:28] I just.

Guest [01:59:29] I don't. It wasn't quite a criticism. I just wanted to voice that It's. It's not the fact that.

John Dehlin [01:59:41] Yeah. That they should tell it. They should explain why when they make a change, they should explain why instead of just. Yeah, it was revelation when we created the exclusionary policy in 2015 and God told us to change it later.

John Dehlin [01:59:54] Like, come on. Yeah, that's not what's going on.

Guest [01:59:57] Exactly.

Carah Burrell [01:59:57] Yeah. And this is my literal. What I love about your comment is because it touches on the subject. That's my favorite thing to talk about in Mormonism. And Bill Real did a podcast that I've listened to nine times. I'm gonna paste it in the show notes because I want everyone to listen to it. I think it's so important because I know I've talked a lot about the church, like crashing and burning and stuff, but my real intent is for the members to choose. Do exactly what you just said, which is recognize that when things are changing, it's because of the agitation. It's from the outside pressure, from the bottom up and the outside in. And there's this great podcast that Bill does, all about Dogma, where he dissects this conversation between Sam Harris and Jordan Peterson. Talking about dogma within religions can only perpetuate and go on. If people are told that things are too sacred to be able to challenge them. And so members, they can't just keep on going along with, like, oh, this new change happened. That. That's so wonderful. We have to. We have to look at what did Mormon stories do? What did John de Lind do? What did Sam Young do? What did the people that were, you know, the anti Mormons or the progressives, what did they actually do?

John Dehlin [02:00:55] Ordain women.

Carah Burrell [02:00:56] Ordain women. What did they do to make Mormonism something that you all benefit from now? But the church doesn't want to acknowledge that, that their best ideas come from the agitators. And so that's why I, like, I'm fired up and I do what I do at Mormon stories because I know that we move the ball forward. Just like with, with Brad Wilcox's thing, if we didn't talk about, if we didn't agitate a little bit, there wouldn't be, you know, a slight change. It wouldn't be able to have the church tell Brad to pull back this racist rhetoric anymore. It has to come from people saying, we demand changes and we're not going to put up with this anymore. No curtain of secrecy or sacredness anymore. That's how we make change and how we make Mormonism healthier.

John Dehlin [02:01:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:01:32] And also, this might be repetitive, but

John Dehlin [02:01:35] the church has to stop blaming awful things on God.

John Dehlin [02:01:38] And that's what Brad Wilcox did. It's like, well, God. God made the change about blacks in the priesthood. We don't know why God was racist for so long.

John Dehlin [02:01:46] Just stop ruining God for so many people.

Guest [02:01:48] Maybe.

John Dehlin [02:01:49] I mean, stop blaming things on God that really are about more about you, the church leaders, than God.

Carah Burrell [02:01:55] Yeah. His ways are mysterious. Are his ways racist? Are his ways sexist? Yeah, I'd like to know.

John Dehlin [02:02:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:02:02] Hey, where are you. Where are you calling from? Trevor, if you're able to share.

Speaker O [02:02:06] Portland, Oregon.

John Dehlin [02:02:07] Very cool. Keep Portland. Keep Portland weird, brother. Very weird.

Guest [02:02:12] We love it here.

John Dehlin [02:02:14] All right, well, Trevor, we're so delighted

John Dehlin [02:02:15] that you joined us on Mormon stories. Thank you so much.

Guest [02:02:18] Thank you.

Guest [02:02:19] Take care.

John Dehlin [02:02:19] All right, take care.

John Dehlin [02:02:20] Thanks for calling in.

John Dehlin [02:02:22] All right, well, I have to go next to Maxim Maximus Minimalist. This is so.

Carah Burrell [02:02:30] Do you really need that hat, Maximus?

Speaker U [02:02:33] Yeah.

Guest [02:02:34] I apologize for all the suited. I'm on the. The chat room as Yeshua. And a quick story about that. So I was born. My birth certificate, my real name is, was Mormon.

Guest [02:02:49] Really?

Guest [02:02:51] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:02:51] Oh, wow.

John Dehlin [02:02:51] You were named Mormon.

Guest [02:02:52] No lie about this. And I'm, I'm. I just want to say thank you on behalf of about a thousand extended family members that I have. I'm a Polynesian, born and raised right out here in Little Provo called Laie, Hawaii. And I grew up much like all the listeners and the folks that have been throughout your podcast sharing their stories. So, you know, I left to join the military at 17 is also when I left the organization. And it's really interesting to be alive to see the Internet and the technology being used for something as powerful as this, to help those that are in crisis, as you, as you mentioned, in need. A lot of hurting individuals. I mean, I see them daily. Family members, friends, classmates. And I'm the black sheep, of course, like probably you two and everyone else. I'm, I'm the rogue defector. However, I've, I've stood my ground and I'm just, I'm just very moved by the, the organization that you have to, to reach out. So thank you.

Carah Burrell [02:04:12] Yeah, thank you.

Guest [02:04:13] Wow.

John Dehlin [02:04:13] I, we, we.

John Dehlin [02:04:15] I'm, we are so moved and touched.

John Dehlin [02:04:16] We're so glad you joined us from Hawaii.

John Dehlin [02:04:19] We're so glad to have one of our Polynesian brothers and sisters reach out to us. And that's just so meaningful to hear that, that from so far away, we've been able to be a small part of your healing and growth. That's kind of. That's our, that's our. All joking aside, all sarcasm and sometimes cynicism aside. That's why we do what we do. And it means so much that you would join us and share that. So thank you, brother.

Guest [02:04:44] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:04:44] What is, Is this what it is? Is this the. Is that the thing? Is that it right there? Aloha.

Guest [02:04:48] What does that mean when you guys come and have the get togethers, the fellowships that you do? I'll be your Uber driver. Van driver.

John Dehlin [02:04:57] Host, dude. So are you, Are you saying Thrive Hawaii is on? Is that what you're saying?

Guest [02:05:02] Yes. Come. Come to Hawaii.

John Dehlin [02:05:04] All right, I'll tell my buddy Clint and Natasha. Thrive Hawaii is on, brother.

John Dehlin [02:05:08] Hang loose.

John Dehlin [02:05:11] Jen and Carah want to come. Do you want to come to Thrive Hawaii?

Carah Burrell [02:05:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:05:13] Jen's saying she wants to come, too.

Speaker R [02:05:15] My leg.

Carah Burrell [02:05:16] I'll do it.

John Dehlin [02:05:16] Thanks for joining us, brother. All right. Thanks so much for joining us.

John Dehlin [02:05:21] It's so great to have you.

John Dehlin [02:05:21] All right. I don't know how long we're going to be able to go here, but Kristen's Kirsten. Kirsten has been waiting patiently. Hey, Kirsten.

Guest [02:05:30] Hi.

John Dehlin [02:05:31] Where are you joining us from?

Speaker K [02:05:33] American Fork af.

John Dehlin [02:05:36] You're. You're Mormon af? Apparently.

Speaker K [02:05:39] I am. I am Mormon af. Or you post ex Mormon af.

John Dehlin [02:05:45] Are you ex Mormon af? All right, I love it. So tell us. We're kind of short on time. We want to be wrapping up. Tell us. Really Quickly, what comment you want to make about today's show or anything else?

Speaker K [02:05:56] Well, I. I mean, I have so many comments I want to share, but I'll just share one. The temples being built were really, really surprising. I mean, I don't know really watch conference anymore, but my family does. All of my family is lds. I'm kind of the black sheep too. But they. They told me they're like, oh, there's gonna be a temple built in Aurum. And I was like, orym is surrounded by three temples. Like, why does it need a temple? And they're like, we don't know. The prophet just said that it needs a temple. And I was like, all right, then. And I just. I don't understand why the church needs to be putting so much money out into temples when, like Carah said, you could just put that into people and be doing so much more good that way than being building shiny temples.

John Dehlin [02:07:09] I love it. Well, Kirsten, that's an important comment.

John Dehlin [02:07:12] Is that a Mark and Fork temple?

Speaker K [02:07:15] Yes, there is.

John Dehlin [02:07:16] That's Timpanogos.

Speaker K [02:07:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:19] All right.

John Dehlin [02:07:19] Well, it keeps you righteous, right? It keeps the bad thoughts away, right?

Speaker K [02:07:22] Well, I can't get away from it. It's right up there on the hill. It increases property values every time you're on the freeway.

John Dehlin [02:07:31] So just think that it helped increase your property values. Just.

Speaker K [02:07:34] Oh, it does.

Carah Burrell [02:07:35] It does.

John Dehlin [02:07:37] Well, Kirsten, we're so happy you joined us. Thanks for.

John Dehlin [02:07:39] Thanks so much for calling in for American Forks. Shout out. Shout out to our American Fork people. You too. Thanks so much.

John Dehlin [02:07:44] Thanks for your support.

Carah Burrell [02:07:45] Thanks.

John Dehlin [02:07:46] All right, let's bring on Cherish, AKA Christian Friend. Christian Friend who is not a man.

Speaker Q [02:07:56] Hi.

Guest [02:07:57] No, I was just gonna say about. Just Covid kind of was the. What started the ball rolling for me and my husband leaving the church. And yeah, it's been hard for me leaving, but he actually left the FLDS church and joined the LDS Church for me. So it's not been as hard for him to leave because he kind of joined for me anyway. But anyway, Covid was a blessing in a way. I shouldn't say that because it's a serious disease and people have died, but you know what I mean? Like, Covid Church was a blessing because we got used to not going to sacrament meeting, and then when we went back, we're like, this sucks. We have to get our kids ready and have them sit still. And anyway, so that's all I wanted to say.

Carah Burrell [02:08:43] My exact problem, too. Like, I couldn't imagine having that breath of fresh air and Then going back to the way it was.

Guest [02:08:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:08:51] So kind of a Covid. You're a Covid. Me too.

John Dehlin [02:08:53] That's what you're saying, Christian friend.

Carah Burrell [02:08:54] And then you had some good time to get a sweet tat on your arm, though.

Guest [02:08:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:08:58] Is that tat before or after my church on Sunday? Was that before or after you left the church?

Guest [02:09:03] This was this, this Sunday. It was a six hour session, but it was totally worth it.

Carah Burrell [02:09:09] Is it more or less painful than church?

Guest [02:09:13] Oh, depends on what type of pain you're talking about. You're talking like emotional damage is definitely worse. I'd rather live with the tattoo pain than the emotional.

Carah Burrell [02:09:25] You don't need to go to therapy after a tattoo session is what you're saying.

Guest [02:09:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:09:29] All right, Christian friend.

John Dehlin [02:09:30] Thanks so much for joining us. We love all your comments and support.

Carah Burrell [02:09:33] Thank you so much.

Guest [02:09:34] Thanks.

John Dehlin [02:09:36] All right. Oh, wow, it looks like Bryce. Bryce is next. Hey, Bryce.

Speaker V [02:09:42] Hello, John and Carah. Can you hear me?

John Dehlin [02:09:44] We can. Where are you calling from?

Speaker V [02:09:46] Okay. San Diego. Hi. I know I'm like kind of dimly lit. I'm making use of the spare bedroom in the condo.

John Dehlin [02:09:52] It's exotic.

John Dehlin [02:09:53] It's exotic.

Speaker V [02:09:54] Yeah. I think that's my monstera plant. The previous guest you had on mentioned that she got out of church for Covid and I started raising a plant. So beautiful, good things come to us all. And the ward works in mysterious ways, right?

John Dehlin [02:10:10] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:10:11] So tell us we're running short on time.

John Dehlin [02:10:13] Give us a quick comment or whatever.

Speaker V [02:10:15] I will keep it short. Sweet. Until the point. I was telling someone earlier that I feel like most of the folks that are currently in Mormonism either were brought in during, like the wave in the 70s and 80s. Like my dad served his mission back in the 80s to the Philippines. They're either that or they were born into it. And I feel like a lot of people are just leaving now in droves, especially because of COVID and just the cognitive dissonance of everything. So, I mean, my prediction for the future of Mormonism is it might be on its way out. I don't know. At the very least, it needs to evolve into something better, particularly so it stops going after LGBTQ folks.

John Dehlin [02:10:56] So, yeah, thank you.

Speaker V [02:10:59] Thanks for coming on my TED Talk.

John Dehlin [02:11:01] Yeah, thank you, Bryce. Thank you so much for joining us.

Speaker V [02:11:04] Yes, very briefly, I love your podcast, John, Carah, the whole team. It's amazing I found you guys however long ago. It's been the most helpful thing for me and my ex Mormon journey and just living a happier and healthy life. So thank you so much for everything you do. I will listen as long as you keep making episodes.

John Dehlin [02:11:24] Nice.

John Dehlin [02:11:25] Oh, my goodness, that's so nice to hear.

John Dehlin [02:11:27] We, we love to hear that. We do our best and it means so much that, that we've been useful to you.

John Dehlin [02:11:33] So thanks for joining us, Bryce.

Speaker V [02:11:36] Thank you very much for having me stay awesome friends.

John Dehlin [02:11:38] All right, take care, brother.

Carah Burrell [02:11:40] Thanks.

John Dehlin [02:11:41] All right, I should mention just really quickly that we do have a new. We have a Discord channel that we have just started. So Discord is an important platform, just like YouTube or Facebook or Instagram or Twitter or other. All those other channels, TikTok. And our good friend Justin is there. He leads it. And basically, Discord is a way for you to kind of manage your identity, but also have audio and video chats and conversations with people kind of synchronously in real time versus, you know, versus

John Dehlin [02:12:22] needing to wait, like on Reddit or on Facebook for people to respond.

John Dehlin [02:12:26] You can have live text chats or verbal chats and it's just a great

John Dehlin [02:12:30] way to provide community to people.

John Dehlin [02:12:32] So I just want to shout out to all of our amazing friends and supporters and our new community, our new emerging community on Discord. We will include a link to the Discord channel, the Mormon Stories Discount Discord channel in our description and in the show notes. But please, please check out Discord. It's a great community and we think you will love it.

John Dehlin [02:13:01] So shout out again to Justin and everyone there.

Rapid Round of Listener Responses

John Dehlin [02:13:03] All right, it's time for the rapid round. Holly, you've been super patient. Give us a thank you so much for joining us. Give us a quick comment or statement

John Dehlin [02:13:12] or whatever, praise if you want or.

Guest [02:13:17] Well, first of all, I was getting serious bearing your testimony and church vibes waiting in the waiting room. But anyways, as you were going over these statistics, I just had this sinking feeling and I was like, why am I being sad? Like, this is a, you know, this is positive. This is how, you know, change will happen in the church. But I think the reason that I'm so sad about this is because I'm thinking about those members who are in the church and I know that they tend to take leaving really personally. And so I just worry about how, like, defensive this will make the members who do choose to stay and, like, what ways the church will turn to, to maintain and retain membership and how unhealthy or, you know, you know, defensive and poorly that could go. So just like worrying about, you know, how this will affect individuals within the church who choose to stay.

Carah Burrell [02:14:12] Yeah, that's.

John Dehlin [02:14:13] Yeah, that's I mean, it's.

John Dehlin [02:14:16] Sometimes we deal with our pain and

John Dehlin [02:14:18] our trauma by laughing or gloating or, or being cynical or critical or mocking.

John Dehlin [02:14:24] We don't want to be mean spirited.

John Dehlin [02:14:26] We need to always remember that real lives are involved, that these are real people.

John Dehlin [02:14:31] People cherish the church.

John Dehlin [02:14:32] The church impacts them. And we need to remember that there's a lot of people, 4 million, 3 million still in it that are impacted very much by these decisions. That's such a great comment.

Guest [02:14:44] And I just want to say, like, I've been really working on trying to separate, like, the church from the people. It's very hard. But whether they leave or not, like, it is unfortunate that they are in this position because if they do leave later, they're going to have to deal with the consequences of having, you know, put the hurt out there into the world that they have. And even if they don't, their relationships are not going to be the same because of the way, you know, the church affects how you treat people, people both in and out of the church or people who are leaving and just do all the family dynamics, all of that. And so, you know, like, this is good news, but also, like, really sad news on how it affects the individual.

John Dehlin [02:15:21] That's all I want to say. And where are you calling us from again?

Guest [02:15:24] I'm from West Virginia.

John Dehlin [02:15:26] West Virginia. Is that Hokie? No, that's Virginia. What is Mountaineer?

John Dehlin [02:15:30] You're a mountaineer, is that right?

Guest [02:15:31] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:15:32] All right.

Guest [02:15:32] The funny one above Virginia.

John Dehlin [02:15:35] Right, right.

John Dehlin [02:15:36] All right.

John Dehlin [02:15:37] Well, Holly, thanks so much for joining us. It's great to have you.

Carah Burrell [02:15:39] Thanks.

Guest [02:15:40] Thank you all.

John Dehlin [02:15:41] All right, Nick, you've been patient. Give us a quick comment. Nick, thanks for joining us. Tell us where you're joining us from.

Guest [02:15:49] Can you hear me okay?

John Dehlin [02:15:50] Yeah, we'll hear you.

Guest [02:15:51] Great.

John Dehlin [02:15:51] Thank you.

Guest [02:15:52] Yeah, I'm from the Wasatch front, so.

John Dehlin [02:15:55] Okay, that's fine.

John Dehlin [02:15:56] Yeah.

Guest [02:15:58] And just quick comment is I'm. I'm not a literal believer, but I still go to church with my wife. A interesting thing that comes up is the people who aren't coming to church anymore are a lot of the people with young kids. So when we look at the longevity of the LDS Church, at least here in Utah, it seems like a lot of those young kids aren't going to have those formative years in the church, which could lead to a quicker decline than what some people might be expecting.

John Dehlin [02:16:36] Yeah, absolutely. That's a really, really good point.

John Dehlin [02:16:40] I'm so happy to hear that we have, you know, listeners and viewers that, that still attend church. And would it be great also if

John Dehlin [02:16:49] like orthodox, true believing Mormons called into the show?

Carah Burrell [02:16:53] Yeah, I would encourage it.

John Dehlin [02:16:54] Yeah. Kind of want to encourage that.

John Dehlin [02:16:57] That's a really great point, Nick. And I'm just so really, really pleased that you'd call in.

John Dehlin [02:17:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:17:04] Is it, is it hard navigating that mixed faith marriage?

John Dehlin [02:17:06] How's that going for you?

Guest [02:17:09] Yeah, I mean, my wife is great. She's really open to understanding and where we've landed is just trying to be a really positive influence on the inside as much as we can be the members that non members or ex Mormons would like to have dinner with kind of thing. But yeah, it's an interesting space, especially right now. But my wife is great, which makes it super easy.

John Dehlin [02:17:37] Well, well, Nick, bless you and bless your wife. Thank you so much for calling in. It's so great to have you.

Guest [02:17:43] Yeah. Thank you guys.

John Dehlin [02:17:44] Join us again.

John Dehlin [02:17:45] Okay.

Guest [02:17:46] Yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [02:17:47] All right,

John Dehlin [02:17:50] Brad, you've been patient really quickly.

John Dehlin [02:17:54] Welcome to Mormon Scoops Mormon Story.

Guest 2 [02:17:56] Hey, how's it going, guys? Can you hear me all right?

John Dehlin [02:17:58] Yeah, yeah, we can.

Guest 2 [02:17:59] Awesome. Okay. I just wanted to make a quick comment. I know you're running late, but I just, I served a mission and it's just kind of a little frustrating to me to see how the church spends their money. Like, I think I had about $125 to spend a month, and there were times where me and my companion would sacrifice good food in order to. To survive. And it's just frustrating to see the money that the church is sitting on and spending it on temples when they could be taking care of the people who are helping grow their church.

John Dehlin [02:18:35] Yeah, isn't that.

John Dehlin [02:18:36] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:18:37] I'm just saying, one thing that my sister is super passionate about was nutrition on her mission. And she was. Felt like she was being abused and exploited. And I'm sure most missionaries know, like, you sometimes go without dinner because you don't even have the money, the funds. You don't have time to grocery shop. And your body, you're young and you, you can only take so much walking, so much biking. And the church, it is really strange to me. Like, that's a great point.

Guest 2 [02:18:59] There was a time where I didn't have any money and we went grocery shopping because my companion had money. And I remember walking in and an old lady gave me like $20 as she was leaving at the time. I took that as a miracle, but now realizing that was a nice lady. So that was definitely life saving for me. But it's Just frustrating. You know, that's like $4 a day to spend. And it's just like we're trying to help grow the church, but that's not working.

Carah Burrell [02:19:31] Yeah. It's a strange thing that they do. Yeah. You'd think with all of that money that they'd be investing in the health and well being of their missionaries a little bit more.

John Dehlin [02:19:39] And safety, Right?

Carah Burrell [02:19:40] Safety.

John Dehlin [02:19:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:19:41] And what a brilliant, you know, business model where you make your salespeople pay to be your salespeople.

Guest 2 [02:19:50] Yeah. And then hold back that money to give in.

John Dehlin [02:19:53] Yeah.

Guest 2 [02:19:55] So.

John Dehlin [02:19:55] And we've had many, many, many people

John Dehlin [02:19:57] write into Mormon stories and talk about, like, you know, being assaulted on their missions, like having. Being.

John Dehlin [02:20:04] Being raped. You know, we actually had two sister

John Dehlin [02:20:07] missionaries talk about literally being raped on their missions, and they were intentionally put in areas that the church knew were gang. Gang infested, like the Mexican cartel areas

Carah Burrell [02:20:18] that they took them out of and then put them back in just because I guess that's where the converts will come.

John Dehlin [02:20:23] Yeah. Very poorest.

Carah Burrell [02:20:25] Not thinking about the best safety of what's best for the missionaries is as individuals. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:20:30] Such a great point, Brad. Thank you so much for joining us. Do you want to tell us where you're calling from or.

Guest 2 [02:20:35] Yeah, I'm from Riverton, Utah, which you also name dropped in the show.

Carah Burrell [02:20:38] So is it pretty Mormon?

John Dehlin [02:20:40] So it's basically Spanish fork?

John Dehlin [02:20:41] Is that what you're saying?

Guest 2 [02:20:43] It's interesting. Like, there's people here who have stopped coming to church for those reasons with COVID and stuff. So I can testify that the stuff you guys were showing was true.

John Dehlin [02:20:54] All right, so boots on the ground confirming a little bit of what we're saying.

Carah Burrell [02:20:59] Yeah, that's why these columns are amazing. Thanks, man.

John Dehlin [02:21:01] Thanks for joining us, Brad.

Guest 2 [02:21:03] Thanks for having me.

John Dehlin [02:21:03] Stay good.

Guest 2 [02:21:04] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:21:05] All right, Megan, you've been patient. Welcome to

Carah Burrell [02:21:11] welcome to Mormon Scoops with John and Carah.

Guest [02:21:15] Hi.

Guest [02:21:15] I just.

Speaker R [02:21:16] I wanted to comment on the discourse around people being. Being, like, upset or belittling changes that the church does make. I'm definitely an advocate for those changes, but the more time that passes, to me, it feels like the church is just trying to keep their head above water and changing enough to try and keep, like, the liberal members, but not changing enough to lose conservative members, if that makes sense. So it's like they're playing this game balancing, like, okay, what changes can we make without losing this group? What changes do we have to make to keep this group? And it just makes it all feel very disingenuous. Hi, Gerardo. Gerardo was my TA at BYU Idaho, by the way. But, yeah, so I think that a lot of the times, the people that get upset about the changes is because it feels a little. It's too little, too late, or the church takes one step forwards and two steps back. And I mean, I served a mission. I graduated from BYU Idaho. I am queer, and I've left the church. So this stuff affects me really directly. But, I mean, it's like the honor code reversal change and reversal, and you have Holland Musket Fire talk. And then the church changes the handbook to allow gender affirming treatments and stuff. And then the news comes out last week that the language center at BYU is now enforcing trans exclusionary policies. And so it's just this back and forth. And I mean, I know BYU and the church are not synonymous, but you get the point. So it's just really hard to be happy when someone goes to, like. Goes from actively trying to take your rights to, like, tolerating your existence. That's, like, a really hard change to celebrate.

John Dehlin [02:23:15] Yeah, no, that's. That's a really. That's a really good point.

John Dehlin [02:23:20] We're so happy that you joined us, Megan.

John Dehlin [02:23:22] And it is.

John Dehlin [02:23:24] It is really hard to celebrate one episode.

John Dehlin [02:23:26] Carah, we really need to do.

John Dehlin [02:23:28] The church puts out these marketing, you know, sort of customer satisfaction membership surveys, probably on a quarterly basis where they're like, what podcast do you listen to? How often do you pray? How often do you read your scriptures? If we were to change our LGBTQ policies, would you stay or leave? If we were to give women the priesthood, would you stay or leave? And it's such a bizarre practice to sort of govern sort of prophecy via

John Dehlin [02:23:55] customer research, survey methods, just like a regular corporation.

Speaker R [02:24:01] Yeah, it feels like. It feels like a business, to be honest. And that's why I say, you know, the church could. The church could allow gay marriage, and I would not go back because it just feels like they're doing it as a manipulation, control tactic.

John Dehlin [02:24:17] Yeah. Yeah, that's a good point.

John Dehlin [02:24:20] Well, Megan, you're delightful. We need to meet you if. Did you tell us where you're calling from or do you want to tell us?

Speaker R [02:24:26] I'm calling. I'm calling from Arizona. I just moved here from Daybreak, so.

John Dehlin [02:24:32] All right, well, how's.

John Dehlin [02:24:34] How hot is it in Arizona?

Speaker R [02:24:36] It's really lovely.

John Dehlin [02:24:38] Rub it in. Rub it in, Megan. Rub it in.

Carah Burrell [02:24:40] How beige is it? That's my biggest complaint about Arizona.

Guest [02:24:43] Beige.

Speaker R [02:24:44] It's pretty beige. There's a few saguaros, but I would

Guest [02:24:48] love to meet you guys.

John Dehlin [02:24:49] Are you joining it more than.

John Dehlin [02:24:50] More than Utah? Are you enjoying Arizona more than Utah?

Speaker R [02:24:53] Yeah. You know, it's been surprising actually to step away from the culture. I didn't really realize how much it was affecting me being in Utah and being such an active part of my life. Obviously, here I am watching Mormon stories, but it's been interesting to see how much less of a prominent part my religious trauma plays in my day to day life.

John Dehlin [02:25:16] Yeah.

Speaker R [02:25:16] Being out of Utah.

John Dehlin [02:25:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:25:19] Well, I'm glad you're finding healing and growth. We ought to do a thrive Arizona

John Dehlin [02:25:22] and come out and. And visit you. You can. You can be a speaker, Megan. How does that sound?

Speaker R [02:25:28] I don't know about that, but I will be in Utah in a few weeks, so.

John Dehlin [02:25:31] Well, let's party.

Guest [02:25:32] Let's.

John Dehlin [02:25:32] Let's go to lunch with Gerardo.

Carah Burrell [02:25:34] Yeah.

Speaker R [02:25:34] Yes, I would love that.

Guest [02:25:36] All right.

John Dehlin [02:25:36] Megan, you're the best. Thanks for joining us.

Carah Burrell [02:25:38] Thanks, guys.

John Dehlin [02:25:39] Stay in touch.

John Dehlin [02:25:39] Okay.

Speaker R [02:25:40] All right.

John Dehlin [02:25:41] All right. Elizabeth, you've been. Oh, no, Elizabeth.

Speaker O [02:25:44] Sorry.

John Dehlin [02:25:45] Elizabeth, you've been patient. Welcome to.

Carah Burrell [02:25:48] Oh, welcome to Mormon Scoops with John and Garo.

John Dehlin [02:25:52] You've got a good DJ voice.

Guest [02:25:53] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:25:54] Did you ever want to be a dj?

Carah Burrell [02:25:55] I am. Right now. You're saying I'm not.

John Dehlin [02:25:57] Oh, you are.

Guest [02:25:57] You're.

John Dehlin [02:25:58] You're DJ Newscaster.

John Dehlin [02:25:59] Sorry. Elizabeth, you've been patient. Welcome. Oh, and we can't hear you and your mic's unmuted. I'm so sorry. I'm not sure why. No, sorry. It's not working. It may be that you didn't enable

John Dehlin [02:26:13] your microphone when you joined Join.

John Dehlin [02:26:15] Try joining us again.

John Dehlin [02:26:16] Maybe come back in, I'll kick you from the studio and you can try and come back in and re. Enable.

John Dehlin [02:26:21] Okay, we just have time for just a couple more super quick ones. We've got Alana. Hey, Alana. Oh, unmute. Sorry.

Guest [02:26:32] All right, got it.

John Dehlin [02:26:33] Hey, Alana, where are you joining us from?

Guest [02:26:36] I'm from Scotland.

John Dehlin [02:26:37] Oh, Alana, what a treat.

Guest [02:26:39] That's me. Yeah. Super late here. It's half past four in the morning.

John Dehlin [02:26:45] What are you doing up? What are you doing up?

Guest [02:26:47] Oh, I didn't want to miss this episode. I should really be sleeping, but.

John Dehlin [02:26:52] Well, you're not on 21st century saints, are you?

Guest [02:26:55] I am.

John Dehlin [02:26:55] Okay. You're an important force in the world of Mormonism and post Mormonism and in the British invasion, the Brit vengers, as we like to say. You have an important YouTube channel and podcast called 21st Century Saints, is that right?

Guest [02:27:12] Yep, that's correct.

John Dehlin [02:27:13] All right, well, thanks for joining us. We have royalty. We have post Mormon, British royalty. Scott. Scottish.

Guest [02:27:19] I would go that far.

John Dehlin [02:27:21] I would. Okay.

Guest [02:27:23] I just. I was thinking a lot about, you know, when they're talking about the numbers, and I was thinking, you know, just based on something that one of my family members had said at one time. But the church is growing, and I just think, why do the church portray that? I can't really speak to the last couple of years because obviously I've not been attending church or general conference or anything, but I just think, why do they want people to believe that they're growing when really they're not? I mean, my ward alone, before I left, just before COVID the numbers were really dwindling. You know, families were leaving, a lot of them being my family. And I just think, you know, it's. They've actually recently brought in. I mean, I can't be 100 sure on all the numbers, but maybe about 30 folk into award just to try and build up. And it seems to be a lot of young people that they're bringing in to try and build the ward up, you know, and I think here in the uk, so it was just interesting to see, you know, the numbers and in America as well, to hear that, just because obviously we can see a real big decline here in the uk.

John Dehlin [02:28:26] Yeah, I've heard you tell me if that's right, Alana.

John Dehlin [02:28:29] But I've heard that in Scotland, the church is not just imploding, it's.

John Dehlin [02:28:33] It's in steep decline. So it's not just no longer growing. It's not just flatlining. We're talking about wards and stakes being collapsed.

Guest [02:28:43] Yeah, well, I recently went to state conference and like, I was quite surprised to see the lack of people who were actually there compared to the last time that I attended. It was crazy. There was very little people there. I mean, probably a lot of people were watching on Zoom due to Covid and things, but it was still interesting to see the lack of people there in comparison to normal.

John Dehlin [02:29:04] Yeah, well, I was just telling Carah Offline how freaking amazing it is to have someone from Scotland joining us on this program.

Guest [02:29:12] Like, I waited forever to actually click join because although I do the podcast, this makes me so nervous being on the John Dillon Show.

John Dehlin [02:29:18] Carah Burrell show. How about the Carah Burrell Show?

Guest [02:29:22] No, we love Carah.

Carah Burrell [02:29:24] Carah, so.

John Dehlin [02:29:25] So if you had to give a thumbs up or thumbs down. What's that?

Guest [02:29:29] I said we were hoping Carah would maybe come on our show.

Carah Burrell [02:29:32] Freaking God.

John Dehlin [02:29:33] 24 7. What's the heck?

Carah Burrell [02:29:34] I have this problem when people have, like, any kind of really awesome UK accent. All I want to do is just listen to you. So you'd ask me a question and I'd just be like, lost in your voice. Like, did you say something?

Guest [02:29:43] That's how we felt when we had joined the podcast. I'm like, I can't do this because it's John freaking Delinquent.

Carah Burrell [02:29:48] No, just take it quickly.

Guest [02:29:50] One more thing. I know you guys are hurry. I just wanted to shout out to Sam Young, you know, in relation to everything he did. That was actually a big part in my faith crisis when all that came out. Being a survivor that, you know, I've. I've hoped for these changes to happen in the church for a long time, but what really annoys me is why does it take for a man who is only trying to fight for good to be excommunicated? And then years later, they're suddenly saying, oh, we've got some changes. Like, I can't understand why they do that. Why could they not have just fixed it when Sam was advocating for. For that change? I can't. I can't understand why they do that.

Carah Burrell [02:30:28] It is the strangest pattern. Everything has to come, like we were saying earlier, from agitators and then covering up why that they changed just to have this cloak of revelation. But don't let the members know that it was actually the people that were that. That we're actually trying to discount and discredit and excommunicate. It's the pattern since the beginning of the church, since Joseph Smith. And it's so wild that members, I just. Sometimes they have complete blinders on. And it's not until we just start talking about it, putting it in the news, making podcasts about it, that we get members attention, saying, like, we want Mormonism to be healthier. We want your kids to be safe. Do you want them? Sam wants it. Apparently the only person dragging their feet is. Is the church until they're forced into a corner to do it. But, yeah, wouldn't you agree, John? That's just like the pattern of the church since that. Since it was founded.

John Dehlin [02:31:14] Yeah.

Guest [02:31:14] Strange.

John Dehlin [02:31:15] It's a mess.

Guest [02:31:16] Thank you so much for having me on.

John Dehlin [02:31:17] Hey, listen, everything you do, we're doing a thrive UK in May. Clint and Jenny and I are coming out to the uk. I really hope you can join us, Alana. It would be so fun.

Guest [02:31:27] I'm working on it. It's my little one's birthday on the

Carah Burrell [02:31:30] 23rd, so it's her little one's birthday.

John Dehlin [02:31:32] Work it out to go well, I hope to see as many of our

John Dehlin [02:31:36] UK friends, friends and.

John Dehlin [02:31:38] And listeners as possible. We're not coming to do anything other

John Dehlin [02:31:41] than support community in the uk. That's the only reason we're coming.

John Dehlin [02:31:45] I hope to see you. Thanks for all you're doing. And in the show notes, can we do 21st century saints in the show notes?

Guest [02:31:52] Sure.

John Dehlin [02:31:52] Check out their podcast.

John Dehlin [02:31:53] It's great.

Guest [02:31:55] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:31:56] Thanks, Alana. Take care. So great to have you. All right, we gotta add Reuben because Ruben represents our legend, Latino contingency Ruben

Carah Burrell [02:32:06] and our fabulous community and our fabulous

John Dehlin [02:32:08] contingency and fellow tiktoker. And Ruben, I've seen you call for more Latino voices on Mormon stories and I think that's a legitimate thing. We're trying, but we always want more. So, Ruben, we're so happy that you joined us.

Guest [02:32:24] Yeah. How are you? So I really liked the show especially I really like the fact that about Elder Bednar now incorporating the actual temple ceremony and the actual temple prep. Because when I took temple prep like 20 years ago back in 2002, I was only taught like just general atonement stuff and, and symbolism. But when I did the ceremony, I was like, this is weird. But you know, I had a. I still had a positive temple like experience, but it was weird, you know, and so I'm kind of glad that Benar's doing this, that they're actually going to know what's going to happen in the temple, you know, so that. That's one thing that really caught my attention during this broadcast.

John Dehlin [02:33:19] Yeah. Informed consent. It's so important. Right, Reuben?

Guest [02:33:23] Right. Absolutely. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:33:25] And Reuben, what's your TikTok channel so

John Dehlin [02:33:26] that those who want to follow you can't.

Guest [02:33:28] It's rubenhappy. Because I like to be happy.

John Dehlin [02:33:31] Yeah, you're the best, Ruben.

Carah Burrell [02:33:32] You're such a cutie.

John Dehlin [02:33:33] And we're working on a potential Mormon stories Espanol. And so we've heard your feedback.

Guest [02:33:38] Espanol or you need to interview me first?

John Dehlin [02:33:41] Okay, we'll work on that. I'll work on that.

Guest [02:33:43] We'll work on that. I already done interviews in Spanish with other people, so.

John Dehlin [02:33:47] Yeah. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:33:48] Well, will you sing a couple bars for us?

Guest [02:33:52] Blue skies smiling at me

Carah Burrell [02:33:58] Nothing but blue skies

Guest [02:34:02] Do I see. Yes.

Carah Burrell [02:34:05] I kind of wish karaoke.

Guest [02:34:07] I miss karaoke.

John Dehlin [02:34:09] What's that, Jen?

Guest [02:34:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:34:11] Yeah. We need karaoke with Ruben.

John Dehlin [02:34:13] Absolutely. Oh my gosh, Reuben, you just won your way onto marmous stories.

John Dehlin [02:34:16] Let's get that on the calendar.

Speaker Q [02:34:17] All right.

John Dehlin [02:34:18] All right, love you, brother. Thanks for all your good work.

John Dehlin [02:34:21] All right, stay in touch.

International Perspectives from Callers

John Dehlin [02:34:23] All right, we got to go to Estonia. Like we've, we've got Scotland, we've got Latino America represented. And now we have freaking Roger from Estonia, Eastern Europe. What's up, Roger?

Carah Burrell [02:34:35] What's up?

Speaker P [02:34:35] That's a nickname to, to be exact though.

John Dehlin [02:34:39] Okay, so you're from.

Speaker P [02:34:40] Nice to meet you.

John Dehlin [02:34:41] Are you, are you Estonian?

Guest [02:34:46] Close.

Speaker P [02:34:47] A Finno Ugric heritage. But it's, it gets a little complicated.

John Dehlin [02:34:52] All right, well, we're glad to have you. We're glad to have you.

Speaker P [02:34:53] And I did watch the, the show you had with the Ukrainian lady, a convert from Ukraine.

John Dehlin [02:34:59] Yeah, she's great.

Speaker P [02:35:00] It was very interesting. And I'm a never Mormon. Oh, who got badly damaged by the church. Oh no, it's still ongoing. My children are been sold by a Mormon judge in Utah essentially to, to the church. So I am right now dealing with some really heavy stuff.

John Dehlin [02:35:22] But I'm sorry, Roger.

Speaker P [02:35:24] Yeah, that's perhaps for a different time. I just wanted to share an analogy about what's happening with the church as observed by, well, a foreigner. But now I believe I know more than a true believing Mormon about the church and the history and problems and whatnot.

Speaker V [02:35:43] So.

Speaker P [02:35:44] But the analogy is the movie Titanic and it's befitting because the acronym of tscc, the so called church is thrown around so we can say RMS Titanic has met its iceberg already and it's taking on water really fast, yet the brethren are busy rearranging deck chairs.

John Dehlin [02:36:11] Yeah.

Speaker P [02:36:11] What do you think about that?

John Dehlin [02:36:13] Yeah, I love it.

Carah Burrell [02:36:15] Rearranging deck chairs. And like perfect analogy would be like changing the logo. And like don't say Mormon. It's like your ship's going down, bros. It's going down.

Speaker P [02:36:25] Basically some minor changes that appear not to address cosmetic. Yeah, they're cosmetic. And, and from everything that I've been discussing on Reddit and other sources, you know, Nemo the Mormon and all the wonderful YouTubers that are doing a fantastic work and you know, websites with resources, widow's might and all kinds of things. I mean I, I haven't. And you were referring to the surveys and the research that the Church does. And in Utah I'm a data analyst professional. So jobs related to data analytics in, in, in design. Most likely A lot of people go through, what is it? Familysearch. It's, it's. So basically the church has plenty of data analytics that they can do and it seems that they are collecting Data they can identify, they've got the tools they can identify and they can figure out what to address. And so cosmetics could be the word. Rearranging deck chairs could be a word. It just. Yeah, you mentioned the temples. Right. Just doesn't make sense. So the thinking just doesn't add up. And the show you had about the Ensign Peak Advisors and the suggestion, I forget the gentleman who was on the show, but the suggestion that the directors, the top brass at Inside Peak, they're compensated way more than the First Presidency and the Q15 and so forth. I mean, we're talking millions for the expertise of those people to manage the funds. And the suggestion is that, well, is the brethren really making the decisions or what is the dynamic there? And so once you start thinking about that, it doesn't make sense even more, it becomes even harder.

John Dehlin [02:38:26] Wow.

John Dehlin [02:38:27] Wow.

John Dehlin [02:38:27] You know more about Mormonism than most ex Mormons, which is saying a lot.

Carah Burrell [02:38:31] It's a good analysis, right?

Speaker P [02:38:32] Well, I wouldn't say that because I've learned from. I, I gotta give credit to all of you guys and the beautiful raiders on, on Ex Mormon. And you know what? The, the Reddit ex Mormons gave me appreciation for Gen Zs. I don't know, Carah, where you fit on the generation scale, but I have a lot of respect for Gen Zs these days. They're truly technology natives. According to a researcher from Nielsen's ratings that I saw a presentation about neuromarketing from the University of California system, there is some really good insight into what digital natives are able to do and how they consume information and how they share information and, and so forth.

Speaker U [02:39:18] Yeah, right.

Carah Burrell [02:39:19] Right on. I am a millennial, but I speak Gen Z. And to the Gen Z kids, you saw some things that were troubling on like the Gospel topics essays, you realized it was sus and you came to Mormon Stories to spill the tea and, and another, another word.

Speaker P [02:39:35] In other words, I'm Gen X. I'm Gen X and not even a tail end. I'm Gen X.

John Dehlin [02:39:42] Well, Roger, I'm going to extend you

John Dehlin [02:39:44] an invitation to come on Mormon Stories because I want to interview some never Mormons about why they care about Mormonism so much.

John Dehlin [02:39:49] So if it ever works out for

John Dehlin [02:39:51] you to come on, we'd love to

Speaker P [02:39:52] have you because I think we can make it happen. I've got quite the story. Nine years. Well, more than nine years and counting.

John Dehlin [02:39:59] All right, Roger, thanks for joining us.

Carah Burrell [02:40:01] Would you be impressed if I know exactly where Estonia is?

Speaker P [02:40:06] Tell me the capital.

Speaker I [02:40:07] I don't know.

Carah Burrell [02:40:07] I Didn't say the capital. All I said is that I memorized it and I. Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania.

Speaker P [02:40:12] What's the country to the north of Estonia?

Carah Burrell [02:40:15] That's not important. All I know is it goes to study Lithuania. I memorized it in ninth grade.

John Dehlin [02:40:21] Tallinn is the capital, says Google. Is that cheating? Oh, say it again.

Speaker P [02:40:28] Tallinn.

John Dehlin [02:40:29] Okay.

Carah Burrell [02:40:29] Talian, like Italian.

Speaker P [02:40:33] And the city, the capital city, changed its name throughout history, but in 1219, Estonia was pagan. And 1219, the Crusaders, the Vikings from Denmark, conquered Estonia and they got their flag at that battle. And that's the oldest flag, if not in the world, but in Europe, because they started to use it as a battle flag. You know, the red banner with the red cross on it because it fell from the sky as Danes were losing, and they saw it as a sign from God and they charged ahead and they won the battle. There's a very, very small, not even a monument like a plaque in Tallinn to commemorate that. And talon is. Is believed to mean Danish town.

John Dehlin [02:41:25] Well, Roger, we were. Cassandra is saying get.

John Dehlin [02:41:28] Get Roger on Mormon stories as soon as possible, so.

Carah Burrell [02:41:31] Roger, that

Guest [02:41:33] much?

John Dehlin [02:41:35] All right. Thanks for joining us, Roger. We really want to have you back.

Speaker P [02:41:39] My pleasure.

John Dehlin [02:41:40] Yeah.

Speaker P [02:41:40] I'm glad to finally talk to you.

John Dehlin [02:41:41] Good luck with all these.

Speaker P [02:41:43] I. I hope John Larsen is settling in.

John Dehlin [02:41:45] He's coming soon.

John Dehlin [02:41:46] He's coming soon.

Speaker P [02:41:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:41:48] He's almost got his equipment set up. We bought him a whole bunch of new equipment.

John Dehlin [02:41:51] He's getting it set up and he'll be joining us soon, so.

John Dehlin [02:41:54] All right, Roger, stay in touch. Thanks so much. I. We really need to close. We're going to take three more and that's it. Make them super quick. John Sawyer, give us a quick comment. Okay, go ahead.

John Dehlin [02:42:08] Go ahead, John.

Speaker O [02:42:09] Hey, Karen. John. Just wanted to say the church may be on decline, but I think its bank account is not. I don't think. And then secondly, I converted to the church at a very young age. And to extend the Titanic analogy, it was a life raft to me at age 15, having been raised in hellfire and brimstone, extremely anti homophobic Pentecostalism. And the church was a needed community for my time or for me at that time in my life. And so I want to see the church address its homophobic past, its racism, its patriarchy, and acknowledge that there are so many wonderful people in it and can still be in it. So that's all I've got to say.

John Dehlin [02:42:54] Beautiful.

John Dehlin [02:42:54] John, where are you calling us from?

John Dehlin [02:42:56] If you want to share.

Speaker O [02:42:57] Boulder, Colorado.

John Dehlin [02:42:58] Colorado. Represent. Go Buffaloes.

Speaker O [02:43:01] Yeah.

Guest [02:43:02] All right.

John Dehlin [02:43:02] All right, John, thanks so much for joining us.

Carah Burrell [02:43:04] Thanks, man.

John Dehlin [02:43:05] Stay in touch. All right, Jennifer, you've been patient. Give us a quick parting. Parting thought or comments.

John Dehlin [02:43:15] I'll unmute you really quickly.

Guest [02:43:20] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:43:20] Oh, go ahead. Yeah. Jennifer.

Speaker I [02:43:22] So part of the millennials who are leaving to protect my children. I have a 8 year old trans daughter who she's not allowed to go to the bathroom in the building and I don't want to have her in her life. Think that that's okay.

John Dehlin [02:43:42] Oh my gosh. Our, our heart goes out to your daughter, Tav.

Speaker I [02:43:45] And also my wife is trans too. And that's, you know, it's, that's not something I'm okay with anymore. Had to move to Utah to find out that we completely broke our faith. We moved in September and then by October, both me and my wife, our shells broke.

John Dehlin [02:44:05] I am so, so sorry. Trans lives matter.

Speaker I [02:44:08] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:44:09] Thank you. Thank you so much for sharing. Our heart goes out to all your family, but your daughter and your, and your wife and we, we, you know, the church has harmed a lot of people the way the church is dealing with, with gender, with transgender individuals.

Speaker I [02:44:25] Yeah, my, my wife actually, she came out 10 years after we were married. It took her a really long time and she actually grew up a scrupulosity because she was raised in a super orthodox home as trans woman and they didn't know that and they like my daughter, my trans daughter when she was young and I would let her wear her sister's clothes, my mother in law would be so upset and I'd be like, if she wants to do that, that that's her prerogative. It doesn't matter if she goes up to be trans. That's if that's who she's going to be.

Carah Burrell [02:44:59] And yeah, that's amazing that you had that kind of perspective even as a, as a believing Mormon.

Speaker I [02:45:06] Yes, I was raised Mormon and my wife was raised Mormon. I was raised not as orthodox and I was very progressive growing up, but through high school. Like I wouldn't date seriously any boys that weren't Mormon.

John Dehlin [02:45:24] Yeah. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry, Jennifer. Well, we're so glad you called and to help kind of remind us, and

Speaker I [02:45:31] my wife is actually on the board of the trans Non gender TN gender network on Facebook. She's one of the moderators and admin and grew up orthodox and now she runs with help from others and helping to bring trans awareness to everyone. Allies are allowed to be on there and people who want to bring happiness to those that are Going through that.

Carah Burrell [02:46:13] Oh, good.

John Dehlin [02:46:14] Love to you and your family.

Speaker M [02:46:15] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:46:16] Just congratulations on being able to be Mormon and support your daughter and your wife and all of the, I'm sure, you know, probably very insensitive and rude comments that you have to field and protect them from. So my heart goes out to you on that.

Speaker I [02:46:30] Not as much as we were expecting.

Carah Burrell [02:46:31] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:46:32] Yeah, thanks, Jennifer. Thanks for.

John Dehlin [02:46:34] Thanks for joining us.

John Dehlin [02:46:36] All right, we've got some really important final announcements to make, but before we do that, Elizabeth, we're going to give you one more shot unmute and see if.

John Dehlin [02:46:48] If we can hear you.

John Dehlin [02:46:50] Oh, no, we can't hear you, Elizabeth. I'm so sorry. It's. Thank you for trying, Elizabeth.

Carah Burrell [02:46:55] Pantomime. Was it a good episode?

John Dehlin [02:46:56] Try you next time. Give us a thumbs up. Oh, thumbs up. We got the thumbs up. All right. Sorry.

Carah Burrell [02:47:01] Elizabeth, you have a lovely smile. I like your haircut.

John Dehlin [02:47:03] We'll try again next time.

John Dehlin [02:47:05] It's.

Carah Burrell [02:47:05] It's great to see the frog in the background.

John Dehlin [02:47:07] Oh, oh, Kermit the frog.

John Dehlin [02:47:09] We love Kermit the Frog. I love it.

Carah Burrell [02:47:12] I'm feeling a rainbow connection right now.

John Dehlin [02:47:14] Thanks so much. Thanks so much.

Carah Burrell [02:47:17] This is my favorite call of the day.

John Dehlin [02:47:19] We love you, Elizabeth.

John Dehlin [02:47:20] All right, take care. We'll see you soon. All right, Carol. Well, this has been amazing.

Closing Announcements and Community Resources

Carah Burrell [02:47:25] This has been so good.

John Dehlin [02:47:26] Yeah. We still have 1500 people joining us. We do have some really important announcements. We're going to say bye to Carah and bring on Jen Camp.

Speaker O [02:47:36] But.

John Dehlin [02:47:36] But do you want to say goodbye before you bail? Anything you want to say?

Carah Burrell [02:47:40] I'm just really proud of everyone who's taken the time to tune in and hope that we can do this every single week. So everyone just keep the super chats coming, please. Keep donating to Mormon stories so I can keep having this job because it's a dream come true to be able to work with amazing people. You're going to meet Jen right now and. Yeah, Jen Camp.

John Dehlin [02:48:03] And we're going to do. We're going to do Mormon scoops either Tuesday nights or Thursday nights around 7pm

John Dehlin [02:48:09] Mountain time every week if we can keep it up. Is that right?

Carah Burrell [02:48:13] Yeah. And we have, like, interviews back to. Back to back this week. We have interviews tomorrow, Thursday, Friday. So we're just, like, keeping the content pumped out here so you don't need to worry. You're gonna get all the same, like, long format content, interviews, scholars, everything. We're just diversifying the portfolio of Mormon stories content. So thank you, everyone. I love you guys.

John Dehlin [02:48:31] And Carrie, you've Been a freaking blessing

John Dehlin [02:48:32] to Mormon stories in the Open Stories Foundation. We adore you. Thank you so much for all you do.

Carah Burrell [02:48:37] All right, I'm gonna moonwalk out of here.

John Dehlin [02:48:38] All right, Carah. Thanks so much, everyone. And without. Without any further ado, I want to introduce to you the newest member of the Open Stories foundation staff, Jen Camp. Hey, Jen. Hi. How's it going?

Guest [02:48:53] Oh, hey. I gotta get used to this.

John Dehlin [02:48:55] How does it feel to, like, go from, like, being an active, faithful Mormon and then, like, in a year to joining Voldemort's crew?

John Dehlin [02:49:02] Like, is that scary? Is it weird?

John Dehlin [02:49:04] What's that like?

Guest [02:49:05] It's a little weird. I'm not gonna lie. It's a little weird, but there's nowhere else I'd rather be.

John Dehlin [02:49:13] Oh, is your countenance darkened since you've

John Dehlin [02:49:15] joined the Open Source foundation out of your eyes?

Guest [02:49:19] Yeah, that's. That's a touchy, touchy thing on my heart right now. But, no, I am much more happy, connected to myself and in a really good space.

John Dehlin [02:49:34] All right.

Guest [02:49:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:49:35] Well, we're so thrilled you've joined us, Jen. We brought you on to help with kind of office management, project management, basically. So much that's needed to kind of

John Dehlin [02:49:46] take stuff off my plate so that I can do more of content and strategy and that sort of thing.

John Dehlin [02:49:52] And you've come on to help us with the events, but we have a few really important announcements that you've been really leading. Leading us on. And so I think I want to just have us talk about a few. So the first thing, I'll set this up and then you can tell us more details. But I'm just so tired of people coming to me at retreats and workshops saying, I live in Alpine, I live in Highland, and I don't know any ex Mormons. And we know that there are hundreds, if not thousands of ex Mormons and post Mormons in Alpine, Lehigh, Highland, you know, sort of area. And we also know that this Alpine, you know, sort of fireside that Brad Wilcox did has set Alpine ablaze in terms of people frustrated with and. Or, you know, wanting to leave the church. And so we've got a couple Alpine events that are scheduled. Do you want to talk about those really quick and what they are and

John Dehlin [02:50:49] why we're doing them?

Guest [02:50:50] Sure.

Guest [02:50:51] Yeah. First up is the Thrive event we're going to have in Alpine. It's just a meetup. It's just for community. We're just gonna have a potluck. John's gonna say a few words, and we're Just going to meet each other and get to know each other. That is going to be held at the Knot and Pine Event Center. So shout out to them, they're amazing. And just come just. There's a link on mormonstories.org if you click on the Events tab. All of these things we're talking about today will be under the Events tab app.

John Dehlin [02:51:27] And you've got a QR code there right in the bottom of the screen. They can. And if they scan that QR code,

John Dehlin [02:51:32] what's it going to take them to?

Guest [02:51:34] It's going to take them to a form that we're going to have you fill out your information so we can contact you with the information about the event. So it'll just ask a few questions and that's how you sign up for

John Dehlin [02:51:47] that event and we'll keep that information confidential.

Guest [02:51:49] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:51:50] And if that weren't enough for Alpine, we. There's more. What else do we got? What else we got going on in Alpine?

Guest [02:51:57] So the amazing John and Margi Delin are going to do a one day workshop in the Alpine area also at not in Pine. And that Sunday, March 20th. It's just a day event. It's kind of a more intimate setting for people going through a faith crisis. I went to one myself about nine months ago or so where I first met John and Carah and it was very instrumental in helping me heal in my poor. My post Mormon faith transition, transition journey and which kind of is in my heart. That's why I'm working with the Mormon Stories and the Open Stories foundation to bring more events, more community. I'm hoping to put together more in person things for the post Mormon community.

John Dehlin [02:52:59] I love it. Yeah. And your work has been so important, Jen.

John Dehlin [02:53:03] And yeah, the Alpine meetup is more kind of thrive sponsored. It's literally just to help people in Alpine, Highland, maybe Lehigh, depending on how many people. And also Cedar Hills. Is that right? Like yeah, helping people in that general area find friends.

John Dehlin [02:53:18] It's free.

John Dehlin [02:53:18] Anyone could come. Kind of like a potluck. That's different. The, the workshop there is a fee to pay for expenses for the full day experience to pay for Jen. We want to make sure we're able to afford Jen and, and support her work. And so there is a, what I think is a very reasonable admission fee for the all day workshop that's separate

John Dehlin [02:53:44] deal from the free thrive based Alpine meetup.

Guest [02:53:48] Correct?

John Dehlin [02:53:48] Okay.

Speaker R [02:53:48] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:53:49] All right. So that's kind of the Alpine rescue, so to speak. The Alpine Post Mormon rescue. We also have a really exciting Thing to announce around the Open Stories foundation offering free or pay whatever you can afford. Faith crisis support groups. And this is a really big deal. Do you want to tell us what this is about?

Guest [02:54:16] Sure. I'm super. I'm. I'm super excited about this. They. We've put together support groups along the Wasatch front and also in St. George and online. And these support groups will meet once a week. They are free. You can also.

John Dehlin [02:54:42] I mean, we're saying like minimum.

John Dehlin [02:54:44] Well, I guess anyone can come, right?

Guest [02:54:46] Yeah, anyone.

John Dehlin [02:54:47] Anyone can come if you can't pay.

John Dehlin [02:54:49] And then go ahead.

Speaker K [02:54:49] Yeah.

Guest [02:54:50] If you can't pay. We also have the QR code on the flyers. If you would like to make a donation each week when you come, or if someone just listening to this wants to make a donation towards keeping these support groups going, they're welcome to do that also.

John Dehlin [02:55:07] Yeah. And so where. I guess we should list all the

John Dehlin [02:55:10] different ones that are happening.

John Dehlin [02:55:12] So starting most north bountiful. So we have one in bountiful. Okay. That's Gabby Accord.

Guest [02:55:19] She is amazing. Heart to Gabby. Love her.

John Dehlin [02:55:22] Okay.

Guest [02:55:23] Michelle Peets is in holiday area.

John Dehlin [02:55:26] So there's a holiday group.

John Dehlin [02:55:29] All right. And again, this, this QR code works for all the different sites. And I guess we're starting in just a. In just a week. So that's kind of a. It's kind of a rush. So if you want to join these

John Dehlin [02:55:43] groups, please join them soon.

John Dehlin [02:55:46] Okay.

Guest [02:55:46] Going South Lehigh American Fork area with Mark Osland is amazing. Yep. And then we're moving on to Provo with Allison Schiffler, which she's amazing too. I just can't say enough about these people leading these groups. They are just so, so amazing and their heart is in it. And I love them all.

John Dehlin [02:56:09] And then we go down to St. George.

Guest [02:56:11] St. George. So we do have a group for you in Southern, Southern Utah. St. George with Corey Reese.

John Dehlin [02:56:18] Yeah. And then we're doing something a little bit different where going to do an online group and I'm going to be hosting that Faith crisis support group. We hope to do it once a week. We're going to pick the date and the time. And here's the catch.

John Dehlin [02:56:32] There's a little bit of a catch, Jen. And the catch is we're going to be making this support group public.

John Dehlin [02:56:39] So we want to provide you with this free support, but we want to do one version of a support group, full eight sessions that is just free to the public. So we need people who are interested

John Dehlin [02:56:52] in the online free support group or

John Dehlin [02:56:55] pay, whatever you want to realize that if you join my Mormon Faith Crisis

John Dehlin [02:57:01] online support group, you have to be okay with it being recorded and shared with the world. And so obviously there's going to be some people that don't want to join that because of privacy or confidentiality reasons.

John Dehlin [02:57:14] But hopefully there's going to be enough

John Dehlin [02:57:15] people that are able and willing to be open about what they're experiencing that we can fill the group and kind of.

Guest [02:57:24] And all the other groups are private if you'd rather have a private experience.

John Dehlin [02:57:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:57:28] And of course, if, if other, if there's other geographical areas that want support groups in the future, if this, if this experiment goes off well and if we can get enough. So again, it's free. If you don't have any money, we're requesting like a $10 a week or 20 or $30 a week donation if you can afford it. And literally the only reason we are requesting donations for those who can afford it is to pay for the therapist because we're paying all these therapists out of our own budget and we're paying Jen to organize all this and we

John Dehlin [02:57:59] just want these programs to be sustainable.

John Dehlin [02:58:01] This is not done with any intent of making money through the Open Storage Foundation. We're almost certainly going to be losing

John Dehlin [02:58:07] money money on this. But it's a, it's a, we've had

John Dehlin [02:58:10] a great year, we've got some extra

John Dehlin [02:58:12] funds and so we want to use those funds to promote healing and growth in the post Mormon community.

John Dehlin [02:58:17] So people use these events. These are free support groups. St. George Provo, Lehigh, American Fork, Bountiful Holiday and online if, if you want. And if that weren't enough, there's one more exciting announcement to make. Many of you have heard of Dr. Julie Hanks. She is Lex de Azevedo's daughter. Although she would probably be mad that

John Dehlin [02:58:47] I introduced her that way.

John Dehlin [02:58:48] She is a singer, she's a songwriter, she is a PhD level psychologist, psychotherapist and she leads Wasatch Mental Health, which is its own therapy practice here on the Wasatch front. And she's just an amazing human and she's active and faithful Mormon. Her husband's a bishop and she is active in the church and she is such a powerful voice. And I've held two mixed faith marriage retreats with her in the past and she has been willing now to team with me for a third. Mixed faith. Did I say mixed orientation? Mixed mixed faith marriage event where she is going to partner with me. It's a two and a half day retreat and we are asking for mixed faith marriages who need support to join. This is going to be July 15th through 17th, 2022. It's going to be in Provo at the Thrive center. And we are going to be talking about all of the issues that are important to mixed faith marriages. And the only requirement for coming is that you can pay the registration fee and you're in a mixed faith marriage. And if that weren't cool enough, we have a cool donor who has donated $5,000 of scholarships. We want people to at least pay some of their way. So it's going to be sort of like, pay what you can so that we can support. Pay Julie, pay for the event, pay for, pay for Jen. But also we'll be offering some scholarships so that young or financially struggling Mormon

John Dehlin [03:00:24] mixed faith marriages aren't excluded from this event.

Guest [03:00:27] Right. Thank you so much, donors, for helping with that and allowing these mixed faith marriages to be able to come to the retreat with Julie. I'm really looking forward to that. She's amazing.

John Dehlin [03:00:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:00:40] So please spread the word about this and all the events. If you've got loved ones, friends, family, community members that need support, that are

John Dehlin [03:00:49] going through a faith crisis, that are

John Dehlin [03:00:50] in a mixed faith marriage, please let people know about all these support groups

John Dehlin [03:00:54] and about the mixed phase marriage retreat.

Guest [03:00:56] Yeah. I was in a mixed faith marriage for about four years and this would have been very beneficial. So I'm excited for this.

John Dehlin [03:01:03] Well, Jen, it's so lovely to have

John Dehlin [03:01:05] you on the Open Source foundation team. Thanks for all your hard work.

Guest [03:01:08] Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:01:10] All right.

John Dehlin [03:01:11] All right, everyone. Thanks again for joining us today on Mormon Stories. You know, Carah's coming back. We love you guys. Please support us if you appreciate this content, if you value this content, if you want to see it continue, we need your support. We've got our best year ever, but we are trying to expand our services. Come on in here, Carrie. Get in here. Stay in here, Jen. We are expanding our services. I don't, you know, if more money comes in the Open Stories foundation, it does not go to John. We are trying to use our resources to expand our services. So that's Carah, that's Gerardo, that's Jen, that's Jennifer, and so many other things we'll be doing with your support. And so if you want to help us reach and help more people, please

John Dehlin [03:02:01] go to MormonStories.org, click on the donate button, become a monthly donor, and we'll

John Dehlin [03:02:06] be able to just help so many more people and promote healing and growth and community for people in transition.

John Dehlin [03:02:14] Yeah.

Guest [03:02:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:02:15] Carah, Jen, you guys are awesome. Thanks everyone for joining us. And we're gonna be doing more Mormon scoops in the weeks, months and years ahead. And you know, do not worry, we have so much long form traditional Mormon stories content on the horizon and including the Rodney Meldrum on Friday. But we've got some cool things before

John Dehlin [03:02:36] then as well so.

Carah Burrell [03:02:38] But they're not live. You have questions for Rod Meldrum on Friday. Heartland model, young earth creation, universal model. All of the things that have to do with what my parents love and hate about me not accepting ask. Tell us what you want in the show notes or what? Sorry, what's the word in the description

John Dehlin [03:02:59] comments on on Facebook or Instagram or whatever.

John Dehlin [03:03:02] All right, we love you guys. Thanks so much for joining us and we'll see you guys all again soon

John Dehlin [03:03:07] on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Bye everybody. Take care.

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