Introduction and Episode Overview

Part 1 of 3 · Ep. 924

Guest [00:00:00] Well, I once had a mother too. She said the things like mothers do but mothers can be wrong sometimes.

John Dehlin [00:00:13] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners. To help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community, Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the Donate button on the right side of the page under Support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible in the United States and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support.

Guest [00:00:56] You're just in love who you love you're just in love who you love.

John Dehlin [00:01:14] It is May 16, 2018, and we are just so incredibly happy to be continuing our epic interview with Roger Hendricks last week, recording from the Alta Club in downtown Salt Lake City. I can hear some sirens right now. We're catty corner to church headquarters. We're interviewing Roger Hendricks from the Alta Club and we did seven hours in one sitting with Roger and he talked about so many cool things. He talked about growing up in Southern California with parents, you know, a mom who was not super active in the church and a and a stepdad. He talked about contracting polio, how he his adolescence and adulthood were in many ways shaped by that experience. He talked about what it was like growing up in the church in the late 50s and early 60s and how that culminated in him being inspired by attending an institute class, an LDS Institute class, and ended up serving a mission under former LDS Apostle Richard G. Scott in Latin America. And how that sprung boarded him into a career with the Church education system, ces. How he rose in the ranks of CES to become institute director, University of Southern California. And along the way how he met several general authorities who would become apostles, including or who were just notable general authorities like Paul H. Dunn, you know, Boyd K. Packer, Jeffrey R. Holland, Henry B. Eyring, et cetera. He shared a lot about his interactions with those brethren, the good and the bad. Mostly good. He talks about how he ended up leaving, you know, serving as CEs, becoming a management consultant, but then ultimately was called to serve a mission as a mission president in Chile. And we did a good hour on what it's like to be a mission president in Latin America in the mid-90s. And then we ended our segments 4 and 5 with Roger talking about how he was being vetted for an area authority position, how he ended up politely declining to pursue that route and ended up being called to serve on the board of trustees for the Deseret Trust Company. How he served there for 18 years. And we did a good two hours on his insights into the Deseret Trust Company, its interactions with the LDS Church, with Ensign Peak, with Deseret Management Corporation, and we talked quite a bit about LDS finances. That was a lot of cool stuff. And if you haven't listened to that, go back and listen. We were fortunate enough to be able to release this interview Yesterday, which was May 15, and we told all our listeners, go listen right now because we're going to be interviewing Roger tomorrow and we want your questions and feedback. So a lot of you did. And so several of you have actually listened to the interview and gave us a bunch of feedback and questions. So we've done our best to incorporate those into today's interview, which we'll do probably three hours today, I'm guessing. But one of the most interesting things in your feedback listeners was many of you either believed by the end of the interview that Roger, you know, was just an active, faithful member that happened to be willing to come on Mormon Stories podcast. Others of you were sort of on pins and needles on the edges of your seat, wondering if you if there was a faith crisis in any of this, and wondering about Roger's ultimate relationship with the church and kind of what his journey was and where he is now. So that is actually where we are going to start today. So, Roger Hendricks, welcome back to Mormon Stories podcast.

Roger Hendrix [00:05:28] Glad to be here.

John Dehlin [00:05:29] Are you ready for hours 8, 9, and 10?

Roger Hendrix [00:05:31] I'll try.

John Dehlin [00:05:32] How does it feel to know that you might break the record for length of. Of a Mormon Stories podcast interview?

Roger Hendrix [00:05:38] Exhausting.

John Dehlin [00:05:41] Well, we're super honored that you're with us, and the feedback has been really positive so far, but people don't totally know where you stand, Roger. So is there anything you want to say about any feedback or reactions you've received before we jump into finishing your story?

Roger Hendrix [00:06:00] Generally pleased with the feedback I've received. I think it's kind of spot on. I think they've kind of nailed my personality and where I was up to the point that we left off. So pretty happy.

Roger's Years on the Deseret Trust Board

John Dehlin [00:06:19] All right, well, so when we last left off, you had served 18 years, I believe it was for on the board of trustees of the Deseret Trust Company. And that takes us to what year approximately?

Roger Hendrix [00:06:36] Up until about two years ago.

John Dehlin [00:06:38] Okay, so that would have been around 2016. 2015. 2016.

Roger Hendrix [00:06:43] Around there.

John Dehlin [00:06:43] Okay, so let's go back in time and let's have you. Doesn't matter where in the chronology, you've alluded a bit to in the 70s, during the Leonard Arrington era, learning about the dialogue stuff and church history and some of the polygamy stuff and some of the Joseph Smith stuff and that, you know, as a CES instructor, you aware of a lot of the troubling things that are only coming out now. But, you know, you told us then that your focus with the gospel was what I'm calling leveling up, which is self improvement. You had polio, you had, you know, some challenges growing up with a family that wasn't all in the church. And. And for you, the church was about, it seems like, self improvement. And I think you said that that was kind of the. The pillar of your commitment to the church was just in getting better. And you advance so long along the way that, you know, who knows how much of these sort of tough questions that really vex people would have been plaguing you along the way. But take us back in your chronology to any point where maybe some cracks started to emerge or some doubts started to emerge in your faith, maybe as a starting point.

Roger Hendrix [00:08:01] Right. Well, I think if there was one issue that continuously bothered me through it all, and it was the denial of the priesthood to men of color, African Americans. And so I continually asked questions about that with my colleagues in ces, studied it, and just arrived at the point

John Dehlin [00:08:29] where

Roger Hendrix [00:08:31] I didn't believe it.

John Dehlin [00:08:34] Now, would you have a sense for what year you would have arrived at that conclusion?

Roger Hendrix [00:08:39] Well, it would have been. Would have been the early 70s.

John Dehlin [00:08:43] So before the change.

Roger Hendrix [00:08:44] Before the change. Right.

John Dehlin [00:08:45] You would have not believed that black should have been denied.

Roger Hendrix [00:08:50] Yeah, I tried to go down every avenue, and sometimes when there is no good answer, that means there is no answer. So I was pretty confident that eventually it would change. Eventually the information, whatever the information would be, would come out and we'd get past this. And I thought that once we got past it, there would be smooth sailing. I had no idea that other issues would come up that would concern me. For example, the Equal Rights Amendment. I didn't know much about it, but during that period of time, and that was going on almost at the same time that the black and the priesthood was going on. But I couldn't understand why the church would be directly involved in campaigning against the era. I mean, what would be wrong with an Equal Rights Amendment? And even if you politically disagreed with that, why the church would be involved in that politically, my understanding was the church only got involved in issues that dealt with values. I didn't see that as a values issue. I saw that as an equal rights issue. And so that was more a question in my mind why the church would. But overriding all of that was black in the priesthood. And I arrived at the decision. I did. And I thought we would just wait this thing out. But it wasn't without intense conversation, even with my wife, because I was becoming vocal and. And so I had to quiet down because I was receiving, you know, my paycheck from the church. And so I had to make that decision. I couldn't become too loud about it or I would have to leave. So I was concerned, thought we'd get over it. But the reality was I was being paid by the Church, so I had to mind my P's and Q's.

The 1978 Revelation and Race in the Church

John Dehlin [00:11:22] So do you remember 1978, when the announcement was made and the revelation came?

Roger Hendrix [00:11:27] Yeah, I remember the very day it happened. I was called by Charles Brown, Hubie Brown's son, who was a professor at USC while I was the institute director. And he and I grew close together. He was one of the people who was very enlightened on the relationship that President Brown had with his colleagues in the quorum of the Twelve and the First Presidency, etc. And he called me. He got word of it early on, called me on the phone. We celebrated together. And to me, that was the great liberation, because I believe the church was the great movement. It was becoming a world religion. I was excited about being a part of that, building it. And now that we have this problem out of the way, you know, there was. There was no end to the growth that the church would take from that point on.

John Dehlin [00:12:36] So it was smooth sailing for you. Testimony wise, innocent as I was. Okay, so what happened? What happened next in the chronology? The 78 Revelation comes and everything's resolved. What kept you from just sailing into endless missionary service until you and your lovely wife passed?

Confronting LGBT Issues as a Stake Leader

Roger Hendrix [00:13:02] Well, then all of the sudden, the gay issue started coming to the forefront. And that was while I was in the Stake Presidency, and that's while I was in administration. I was asked to not be an institute director, but to manage institute directors in Southern California and seminary guys. And all of the sudden, the issue of homosexuality started to the forefront. And that was also when the church was building up social services and they were going to these psychological conferences and the issue of what is a homosexual. And people started saying that what kind of therapy should we have to. To help people who are gay to stop being gay? And that's when some of us had to take a position that we didn't think being gay was a choice. We thought it was genetic. And there. There were just a whole bunch of people who believed it was a decision. It was learned.

John Dehlin [00:14:31] What years would you have been having these thoughts and having these conversations? Approximately?

Roger Hendrix [00:14:37] Yeah. Early 80s, 79, 80, 81, 82.

John Dehlin [00:14:43] That's pre magic Johnson. That's a really early time, especially for someone, I'm just gonna say your generation, to come to the conclusion that homosexuality was genetic and wasn't a choice. That puts you in sort of 99th percentile of awareness and, you know, empathy for LGBT people in your generation, in your cohort. Yeah, honestly, I mean, this is before the AIDS scare with Magic Johnson. This is very early in history for you to have arrived at that conclusion. How did you arrive at that conclusion from your generation that early? Do you have a sense for how that happened?

Roger Hendrix [00:15:27] Well, I can theorize. I'm not quite sure I know how I arrived at that position, but growing up, there were kids in high school who were gay. Not a lot, but there were gay kids. I knew them. I had a friend across the street who was gay. And. And we never talked about the fact that they made a decision to be gay. They were, to me, just gay. And so when I arrive in a position in 1980 where I'm in a stake presidency, conversing with my stake president, who ended up being one of my closest friends, we spoke frankly on the subject, and each takes their position and tries to defend it. And mine was, I thought it was genetic. And the reason I thought it was genetic was because it would be tough to just make a decision to be gay, because you'd be made fun of. You probably wouldn't have a social group that you'd feel comfortable with, or they'd feel comfortable with you. So that's too high a cost. Plus, the kids I knew were gay and had always been gay. So that's probably how I arrived at that decision.

John Dehlin [00:17:01] Okay, so how did that go? How did that affect your time with ces, your relationship with your stake president? How did that unfold for you?

Roger Hendrix [00:17:10] Well, my stake president was Keith Hillbig, who eventually became a member of the first quorum of the 70. I think he listened to. To my argument, and he basically said, you know, the evidence steers in that direction. So it wasn't as though I was the only person in the crowd. I think there are other people who were taking my position. And. And then when I left ces, I. I became a management consultant. But I also was on the radio every day doing Radio comment

John Dehlin [00:17:53] in LA

Roger Hendrix [00:17:53] area right on Sunset Strip. And, and most of the people who worked at the radio station were gay. And, and that part of Sunset Strip was in West Los Angeles and that was a, a center of gay activity or gay lifestyle or gay culture. And so I knew a lot of these guys and I didn't feel sorry for them, but I knew it was a tough issue for them. So they stuck with one another and I think they longed to be accepted. And then the gay issues started coming out eventually. And so I worked with a lot of gays in Hollywood and pretty much accepted them. They worked hard, they. They carried on the same conversations that you and I would carry on. So I was pretty used to it and not troubled by it.

John Dehlin [00:19:05] So from those early 80s to your mission service from 95 to 98, is that right?

Roger Hendrix [00:19:11] 92 to 95.

John Dehlin [00:19:12] Okay.

Roger Hendrix [00:19:12] 92.

John Dehlin [00:19:12] 95.

Roger Hendrix [00:19:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:13] Would you have had. So you had the black issue that kind of was resolved, but was there for a long time. Then you had the gay issue that the church probably wasn't pounding as much as they have in the past 15 years. Was there cognitive dissonance between the early 80s and the end of your mission service around these or other issues? Or were you just sort of on autopilot? Church wise, faith wise, testimony wise?

Roger Hendrix [00:19:40] Yeah. The church had no policy that I knew of about how they were going to handle gays and their membership in the church.

John Dehlin [00:19:50] Weren't they excommunicating gay people? Like, you know, like. I think it's always been part of the church handbook is like murder, rape, incest, homosexuality. Like, wasn't that a thing in the 80s and 90s that you. Or did it just not occur to you?

Roger Hendrix [00:20:07] I didn't have that much experience with

John Dehlin [00:20:10] it in the church.

Roger Hendrix [00:20:12] In the church, when I was a bishop or a member of the Stake Presidency, we never engaged the issue of homosexuality and their membership. While I was on the mission as a mission president, I had two instances where young men told me they were gay. And there was one issue of a young gay guy falling in love with his companion. And so my, my position was, you know, none of us can act on our sexual desires here in the mission. So, you know, just follow the rules, you'll be okay. And if it becomes too much for you, come and talk to me. And then the one kid who fell in love with his companion, we changed out the companionship, him, how comfortable he was remaining on his mission. And he said he would try and do it as long as he possibly could. So those were the Two issues, you try and work them out until it doesn't work.

John Dehlin [00:21:27] Yeah. Okay. So you finish your mission and then when, if at any point did other cracks start emerging in your faith journey or developments? I don't have to say cracks or developments. However you want to frame it.

Marriage Equality Becomes a Turning Point

Roger Hendrix [00:21:45] For me, the gay issue became the issue. And then around what year? Around the year 2000. Probably you would have heard about Prop

John Dehlin [00:22:00] 22 in California, maybe.

Roger Hendrix [00:22:03] Well, Prop 8 was really a turning point for me.

John Dehlin [00:22:07] Okay.

Roger Hendrix [00:22:09] I couldn't believe that the church was leading out on a political issue, especially for a constitutional amendment on people's private lifestyles. And so that began to take the wind out of my sail. And then the church, you know, really,

John Dehlin [00:22:31] While you were on the board of trustees, right?

Roger Hendrix [00:22:33] Yeah. And this started as early as 1995 with the proclamation on the Family to the world.

John Dehlin [00:22:41] That bothered you?

Roger Hendrix [00:22:42] Well, when I read it at first I didn't understand it because I thought it was, you know, that this is the church's brand. Families can be together forever and we don't want to mess around with the families and we believe that they're the foundation of all of civilization. But the words they should have used, they didn't use in working with family members. It had a certain edge to it that I couldn't understand. The idea of long suffering and patience, those words that usually we use weren't involved in that proclamation. So I would continue to read it. And then one day it dawned on me. This is a homosexual document.

John Dehlin [00:23:36] Anti homosexuality document.

Roger Hendrix [00:23:38] Anti homosexuality document. Where did this come from? And so I told my buddy who lived a couple blocks from me now, and that same buddy, Gordon Moss, who is Armin's brother, was a full time institute guy at the University of Utah. And, and Gordon and I would walk and exercise every day together. And I said, gordon, this is a gay document. This is an anti gay document. And he says, no, read it again. It's about the family. And I said, I'm going to read it one more time, but I'm pretty sure that this is what it's about. So I read it again. And more than ever it was, for some reason the church felt compelled to put out this proclamation that was basically geared around an anti gay acceptance. And that was it. And so as early as 1995, 1996, 1997, I was concerned because of that proclamation. I didn't understand why they would do that if they hadn't done it before. We know there are gays. Why, why now? Why is this such an issue? And so I Started having theories maybe about the, about why the church would come out. Maybe they came out about it because gays began to organize themselves and began to become more activistic and push for legislation. And so the church was reacting to it. That was one of my theories. And it was a good enough theory. And so I went with that. And lo and behold, you start having these state legislative fights over, you know, over one man, one woman in marriage. And the church, I found out, was leading out, especially in California, which, you know, that's the state I grew up in. That's, that's where my, where all my identity was formed. And so when Proposition 8 came out and the church was leading out in that, I personally began to become very concerned about it. And when I was contacted to call people to have them support Proposition 8, I turned it down. I didn't donate any money. And then when in our sacrament meeting, literature was handed out about it. And I read some of the literature, which, you know, was not science based. It was. They were pamphleteering on a political issue. And so that kind of got my juices going on the, on the issue.

John Dehlin [00:27:03] This would have been in Utah, not California. Right, because you moved to Utah after your mission.

Roger Hendrix [00:27:07] Right.

John Dehlin [00:27:08] Presidency.

Roger Hendrix [00:27:08] Right. And. And so. I began to speak out when I was asked about it. And no, I wouldn't campaign for it. No, I wouldn't do phone calls and no, I wouldn't contribute to it. No. And at this point, you know, everyone goes through these concerns. I'm basically going against the church. And then some of my friends who were lawyers in town who knew the legal counsel, who was a member of the first quorum of the 70, they went to him and spoke to him and he said, well, you know, you can, you can have your political opinion and positions which may not hook up with the church because it is, after all, a political issue. I thought, well, I'm learning something here. The Church makes a distinction between doctrinal utterances and policy and then political positions they take on issues. And it so happened on this issue, I wasn't on the same page with them, especially with Proposition 8.

John Dehlin [00:28:28] And I think for those who kind of know the history of the proclamation on the Family, my understanding is Hawaii was the first state where this really came to the forefront. And the early draft of proclamation on the Family was likely written by an attorney who was trying to give the church, I believe, legal standing so that they could file an amicus brief or whatever to fight, to have standing, doctrinal standing, to be able to fight this legally. And that Legal brief morphs into proclamation on the family. So you've got Hawaii, then you've got Prop 22 in California, which happened a long time before Prop 8.

Roger Hendrix [00:29:11] That's right. That's right.

John Dehlin [00:29:12] And then you have Prop 8. So I think your instincts were probably right that it really was a legal anti gay document. I think history seems to bear that out.

Roger Hendrix [00:29:21] Yeah. I wasn't familiar with the issue in Hawaii. Where I started getting fired up was the proposition 8 issue plus just the document on proclamation to the world about the family. So those were the two data points.

John Dehlin [00:29:39] And for those who are interested. Thanks, Cody. For those who are interested, it's also worth learning. When Down H. Oaks was called as an apostle in the early 80s, my understanding is his major first act was to write a memo on the church's legal strategy for dealing with the gay menace or whatever it was called back then. And if you follow what happened in Hawaii, in California, all the way to where things are today, it's very much following in line with Oaks's architecture of a church strategy even back then in the early 80s. So I mean, that's just stuff for those who are history geeks to kind of check into.

Roger Hendrix [00:30:26] I found out about that later.

John Dehlin [00:30:28] Yes. Yeah. So. So between the proclamation on the family, which we'll just say is around 95, is that right?

Roger Hendrix [00:30:40] Exactly right.

John Dehlin [00:30:41] To your separating from. To your separating from the Deseret Trust Company, there are still many, many years. And so how much cognitive dissonance were you experiencing working at a very, very high level for the church, interacting with top church leaders, knowing that you are in some ways playing a very important role in strengthening and uplifting the church and having this tension about not agreeing with some of the church's doctrines or

Roger Hendrix [00:31:17] policies or tactics, well, you start becoming concerned. And by this time I've now had enough church experience knowing that not all of the church leaders agree on issues, but they go along as far as they can because they want to support those who make that decision, hopefully under the influence of the spirit or revelation. But to say it wasn't problematic for me would be a mistake. It was you. You wrestle with the issue and it's kind of like digital information. You know, you go one square at a time. You just don't pell mel go into some decision you make about it. You're gathering information, you're debating it, you're discussing it. You're seeing where others of your ilk are standing on the issue.

John Dehlin [00:32:25] So one thing you just said that I have to call attention to you're basically saying that something that would probably be obvious to an outsider, but that many members who are orthodox may not think about a lot, which is that based on your exposure to the Brethren, it became your understanding that not all the Brethren would always be aligned on everything, but that apostles might even disagree with a certain approach or not feel good about it, but be willing to support it because they want to support the leadership. Is that what you're saying? Am I putting words in your mouth?

Roger Hendrix [00:33:01] My experience was that from those I knew, from Charles Brown, whose father was Hubie Brown, to Richard Scott, to my own interaction with general authorities when I had particular responsibilities, sometimes you have disagreeings and you voice those disagreements. And you also find out that the Brethren. And when I talk about the Brethren, I'm talking about the First Presidency and the Quorum of the twelve, when they get together, especially the Quorum of the Twelve, and there is an issue, they take strong positions. And you don't become a member of the quorum of the 12 by not having strong positions and not having a strong sense of yourself and what you think is right and wrong. And so they voice those things. And then those who have the power to make the decision, I think the 12 go along with it ultimately. And they did and have. But that doesn't mean, you know, I didn't have concerns and they don't privately have concerns and their own opinions. It's kind of how life works.

John Dehlin [00:34:30] Yeah. So you had some. Should we call it low grade cognitive dissonance then? Not high grade cognitive dissonance for those that decade or two you were struggling with the LGBT issue, but also serving at a very high level of the church.

Roger Hendrix [00:34:46] Yeah. And it's not as though I, you know, I haven't gone through these things like with black and the priesthood. I'm not a stranger to having a different opinion and angle on issues that the church has taken a policy stand on.

John Dehlin [00:35:10] But at least for. Would it be fair to say that at least for the majority of your life, if you were viewing this as God's one true church on the earth.

Roger Hendrix [00:35:22] Yeah, I wasn't real strong on that. I always, when people would talk to me about it, I would say, I think religion, and religions are like athletic teams, and the Mormon Church is like the New York Yankees. They're the best of everything that's out there. And sometimes they don't win the pennants, but most of the times they do win the pennant. And so mine was more like, it's the analogy was to sports, they're the best of the best.

John Dehlin [00:35:58] And even in your CES years, that was your view.

Roger Hendrix [00:36:02] Yeah. I didn't come down strong. This is the one and only true church. Every once in a while, I tried it out and I tested it out, and, you know, I didn't necessarily feel comfortable saying it. This is the one and only true church on the face of the earth. I would say this is the church of Jesus Christ. And prophets, seers, and revelators hold the keys to administer the saving ordinances of the gospel. I feel comfortable saying that. I still feel comfortable saying that because we're only talking about Mormons. Believers. They hold the keys for Mormons who want to have the saving ordinances.

John Dehlin [00:36:47] So in the enclosed system, the president, whoever is the prophet leading that church. Right.

Roger Hendrix [00:36:53] And only he has the keys in that system. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:57] And you were that philosophical even in the 70s and 80s, even in your CES years.

Roger Hendrix [00:37:03] Evidently, I didn't realize it that much until I got into this interview with you.

Discovering Joseph Smith's Polygamy and Polyandry

John Dehlin [00:37:12] Well, yeah, so, I mean, that's one of the questions that we got from. So some listeners stumbled on an essay that you recently wrote about polygamy, and they said, okay, wait a minute. In one of the blog posts, you wrote on, was it green? What is the website? Green.

Roger Hendrix [00:37:32] Green. THP report.

John Dehlin [00:37:34] Okay. You. You wrote about some awakening you had about polygamy that was more recent. And they're like, how does this jive with him saying that he read Fawn Brody and no man knows my history, you know, in the. In the 70s. Like, on the one hand, in the interview, you had said you knew about the troubling stuff, but, you know, you kind of. That wasn't what it was about for you. The church was about improvement. And so the utility was much more important than the validity. So you knew about that stuff, but then at some point, you did have some sort of awakening. And I relate to that because I knew there was some polygamy stuff, but I didn't understand the full ramifications of it until Mormon stories. And I'm interviewing Todd Compton and, you know, Michael Quinn and Jeremy Runnels and really reading this stuff, Richard Bushman, where I had the second awakening. But I don't want to, like, prime you for that. Tell me. So you had a philosophical, nuanced, very utilitarian view of the gospel through many, many decades, including CES service. There must have been some point where you started to really look at the church with more scrutiny, and maybe that cognitive dissonance started really amplifying for you.

Roger Hendrix [00:38:56] Well, let me make two points on this one was, yes, I knew that the church practiced polygamy. My point is, who didn't? In ces, Did I teach, like in church history that the church practiced polygamy? Yes. Did. Did I. Did I also teach that they abandoned polygamy? Yes. Did I know a lot more about it? Well, in faculty meetings, there were papers presented and there was speculation. And the speculation caused me to not go as far as maybe I could have gone in teaching it. But I did teach it. But point two, I separated that out from the church. I was living in the here and now. And so. The way I looked at the beginning church was a lot of what we thought was doctrine was practice. And I thought polygamy was more than anything else a practice. Now, as time has gone on, I have changed my tune on that. I've changed from it was a practice to, by gosh, this thing is a heavy duty doctrine. And then the church ceased and desisted from practicing it and excommunicated people who were practicing it. And I was the recipient of the modern church. And so I wouldn't teach my children in family home evening that they would be practicing polygamy in the heavens to come. At that particular point, we were interested in teaching children to live moral lives and to grow up and marry in the temple and have happy families. I didn't want my children to live polygamy. My great grandparents didn't live polygamy when they came over from Denmark. My grandparents didn't, my parents didn't. I was never, never taught in my home about polygamy. And so I separated that out. Then it started becoming more interesting. And that would be the third point. I had two of my children, two of my adult daughters. Now that time has transpired, they're married, they're starting to have kids. And they came to me and they said, how come you didn't teach us about polygamy when we were little kids growing up? And my point was, if it doesn't touch my family and it has no benefit to my family, I wasn't going to teach it to my family. And I was surprised that they were challenging me on it, which forced me to take a position on polygamy. And that's when I wrote the essay. And I think the essay said, I don't believe in polygamy. If the president of the church asked me to practice polygamy, I wouldn't practice polygamy. But do I know people who live polygamy? And yes, we have business partners in the United Arab Emirates, Bedouins who have hundreds of years of practice practicing polygamy. And I know them and we've met their families and they practice polygamy. I don't know of any present day Mormons who practice polygamy, but they asked me if I knew people who practice polygamy. Yes. What did I think about it? I have no problem with that. But if the president of the Church asked me if I would practice polygamy.

John Dehlin [00:43:17] No.

Roger Hendrix [00:43:18] Why didn't I teach my children about polygamy? Because that's past. That was a practice in the past and no longer has any impact on us in the present. And then all of a sudden, all kinds of new information came out about polygamy. And I've had to stop and reanalyze what I believed about polygamy. And namely, you have the president of the church and his first counselor who have entered into marriage covenants that suggest they believe in plural marriage. They've taken a second wife for the eternities.

John Dehlin [00:44:08] And so currently Nelson and Oaks.

Roger Hendrix [00:44:11] You mean President Nelson. President Oaks, yes. And so. And I'm led to believe they believe in the 132nd section of the Doctrine and Covenants. And so you. So you have to go back to your daughters and say, I didn't know as much about polygamy as I thought I knew. And you have every right to question me. And I'm updating my own information on the subject. But did I teach you when I was in ces? Yes, like everybody else taught it, that it happened, that it was a practice, that we have abandoned it now with more information, I've refined my knowledge of polygmy or plural marriage.

John Dehlin [00:45:05] So at some point, as you studied it more recently, I mean, on the one hand, I'm just stunned that Fawn Brody's book has been around since 1945, and she talks about even polyandry in that book. I don't know if she uses that word. But somehow it. It didn't penetrate the broad Mormon consciousness for decades and decades and decades until, you know, the 2000s, really, with Mormon stories and CES letter and Mormonthink and other sorts of things. Somehow it was always right in front of our face, and somehow we knew it in the back of our minds, but it didn't really. It didn't really bother us until we really started digging into it. Is that an okay summary of what happened to you?

Roger Hendrix [00:45:59] Yeah, I would be a part of that. And for me, the thing that broke the whole issue loose was Richard Bushman's no Man Knows My Excuse me, rough stone rolling. And so then I started going back and reading and Todd Compton began to write some very penetrating articles, maybe even a book on it. And then I found out that Joseph Smith lived polyandry. He practiced polyandry. He married very young women. One was 14. And so, yes, I was surprised and I had to take it in. I had to adjust my thinking. I have adjust my thinking. That was one of the issues that moved me to a position I have taken about the church. And it was that when I am asked about the church, I'm going to put square pegs and square holes. In other words, for so much of our lives in the church, we're asked tough questions and we're always in a position of having to explain. And it's almost like taking a square peg and putting it in a round hole. We're always trying to carve our answers to make them fit eventually. And I just said to myself, I'm not going to do that anymore. If I'm asked a question, I will just answer it. I won't try to explain it and I will answer it to the best of my ability, according to what I believe and how I process information. And from that point on, you know, I became very increasingly relaxed with how I approached issues in the church and issues of life in general.

John Dehlin [00:48:17] Around what year would it have been that your two daughters kind of approached you about this kind of stuff? Was it just a couple years ago? Do you remember? I know it's putting you on the spot. I think just get a sense for the timeline.

Roger Hendrix [00:48:33] Three or four or five, five years ago, six years ago, something like that.

John Dehlin [00:48:37] So in the final years of your time with the trust company,

Roger Hendrix [00:48:45] they approached me while I was still on the Deseret Trust Company board and we had to work that issue out and I had to do more research. And I mean, what can you say? What could the quorum of the 12 say, or the first presidency or trustees or the president of BYU say when it's right down there? The data says Joseph Smith practiced polyandry and he married a 14 year old girl. You just have to accept it.

John Dehlin [00:49:20] Did you try and reach out to any of your high ranking associates to get explanations or justifications or comfort, you know, as you were trying to make

Roger Hendrix [00:49:31] sense of all this at that point, I didn't need comfort. It's a fact. I had to adjust to it. And that's my thing. If I'm asked about it, I'm just going to say it. Did Joseph Smith practice polyandry? Yes. Did he have a 14 year old girl sealed to him? Yes, I don't need to explain it. You know, it happened, it's there. You know, the question is, what do I do with it? And at that point I just accept it and let the discussions begin, let the debate begin. And it's around that time that I started engaging Mormon stories. I thought it was very refreshing when guys like Richard Bushman would come on, you'd ask them questions and they would give the best explanations they could. And so, you know, you can't argue with the facts. And you can try and give a new slant on the facts, you can try and give your interpretation on the facts, but you can't do away with the facts. You know, you can't gaslight on that stuff.

John Dehlin [00:50:52] Facts are stubborn things.

Roger Hendrix [00:50:54] That's right. And so it's best just to accept them, face them, start talking about them.

When You're Explaining, You're Losing Ground

John Dehlin [00:51:01] You've used this phrase when, when we've met privately, you finish it. When you're explaining, you're what you're losing. What do you mean by that?

Roger Hendrix [00:51:12] It's, you know, usually when a person is kind of guilty, you know, in a court of law. And I picked this up from my lawyer friends, when a person starts explaining too much, you know, there is something there, they don't feel comfortable, they're trying to convince you. And I have found that I've done plenty of explaining in my life about Mormon theology, trying to make sure that after I would begrudgingly, you know, admit to a fact, I would try to explain it away or put the best light on it. And so my experience has been if you're doing too much explaining, in fact, if you're explaining after you make a statement, you're probably losing ground. You know, when you're asked a question, answer it, give the fact and let the person who's asked the question take it from there.

The Church as an Institution: A Business Framework

John Dehlin [00:52:16] So in your kind of chronology of your own story, you've got a bullet that says the full conversation, yours and theirs. And you reference Hegel. Do you want to talk about kind of how that, how that's reflected in your journey once you start deciding no longer to try and jam square pegs into round holes.

Roger Hendrix [00:52:36] Yeah, you know, I started reading a lot of philosophy because one of my buddies was a post modernist scholar. And so to keep up with him, I had to read up on postmodernism and philosophers who were writing in that area. And then I got into more modern philosophers who laid the groundwork for modern philosophy. And the one who really talked to me, maybe the Most was George Hegel. Now they give him a bunch of middle names and I can never remember them, but it's George Hegel, the great modern philosopher. And for me, what he said conforms to how I think. In other words, he basically said for great ideas to emerge, you have to take positions, and then other people have to take other positions and you have to kind of fight it out. And then a new truth or a new idea emerges that you can use and you can live by. Now there are some people who have kind of summarized Hegel as saying what he said was thesis, antithesis, synthesis. Well, he never said that. It's you, you have an idea and then you have a contrary idea, an alternative idea, and then you debate it until a better idea emerges. And then that will become the foundation on making legislative decisions, personal decisions. Now, excuse me, with respect to me in my life, how I think, it's usually when an issue comes up and I say, this is what I believe, and then almost automatically a contrary idea pops into my mind. Always has been that way. When I take a strong position on anything like, let's say, abortion, then almost immediately the alternative idea pops in my mind. So I'm for a woman's right to have an abortion, and I take a strong position on that. And then an idea is, well, when do you not have an abortion? I mean, when is that baby a baby? And what moral responsibility do you have for that? And so you start allowing that alternative idea to grow, you start having a debate on that, you engage other people, and then all of a sudden a better idea than those two ideas emerges to allow people to move forward. And George Hegel was the one who says, that's how intellectual history is. That's how psychological history is. That's how we live our lives. And that really spoke to me. And I've made a living on that philosophy. That's really, if there's any fundamental principle I used in management consulting at a very high level, it was that issue there that I used to solve problems.

John Dehlin [00:56:24] So how is that Hegelian sort of philosophy? How did it inform your thinking and processing new church history and your faith and your position with the church? How did it. How did it progress for you as you started tackling polygamy, trying to make sense of it? And then maybe other issues emerged. How did your faith or non faith unfold?

Roger Hendrix [00:56:52] Okay, let's say I take a strong position on the gay issue. And so automatically I asked myself, why would really good men that I know, why would they take an opposing idea? What's their thinking behind that and you would try and understand it. And I have tried to understand it. So when I started taking a position that I really don't like this letter, this proclamation, and I don't like the proposition 8, I didn't participate in trying to get it passed. And then you say, why is the church so involved in that? Why does this bother them so much? And then all of a sudden you say, well, look at the. The church has built its whole identity around a brand of families and just not any old families, a mom, a dad, kids and happiness and the gospel.

Guest [00:58:15] And

Roger Hendrix [00:58:17] they sold that to the world and they became the modern family church. And that has been very successful for them. Now you enter the issue of, well, what do you do if one of your kids is gay? They have a partner, they want to participate in the church, they want to get sealed in the temple. And so the church has no answer for that. But we're not into gay eternal marriages. We're into man and woman eternal images marriages. And that's our brand and that's what works for us. And this gay marriage and gay partnerships and getting married in the temple, that doesn't work for us. It won't work for us. And to boot, we'll probably lose a lot of our conservative members on it. And so that. So President Nelson has really made the move to take that whole issue off the table. They basically, you know, he has said that the Lord has revealed, or the Lord had revealed to President Monson that gay married couples are to be brought before a church council. A decision is to be made and their children are not to be baptized and cannot become members of the church and enjoy the ordinances of the gospel until they're 18 and they abandon their parents, etc. So I understand that. Now the question is, I've taken my position. I think I understand the church's position now. What is emerging and what's emerging is that's probably not going to work in the long run. The church will probably not win on that issue. In my humble opinion, the better idea is that there will always be gay children and they now have the legal right to be married and have all of the benefits that a regularly man and woman couple would have. And I think that's how it will end. But I don't think I came to that conclusion until I took a position and then I understood the church's position. And then I say, this is how I think this thing will work out in the future.

John Dehlin [01:01:11] Just as a total side note, I can't help but notice that you sort of are framing the church's thought processes and even actions in terms of kind of a business model, a product that they're marketing to customers. And I'm just wondering how, you know, how intentional that is and to what extent you really feel like it's more business than a spiritual enterprise or whatever. What should we take from the fact that you're framing that using business language instead of theological language?

Roger Hendrix [01:01:57] Well, I have several reactions. One, I take exception that it's purely business language. To me, that seems theological or philosophical

John Dehlin [01:02:11] to me, saying a product and marketing.

Roger Hendrix [01:02:14] Oh, that the church has create its brand or that. Okay, well, that's one of my next reaction. My first reaction is, you know, goodness. I studied George Hagel. I got this framework that he said how my mind works. And so that's. I feel comfortable with that now. With respect to. I frame it in business language, I might say that, you know, that's. That's the language I speak because I'm now in business, and so I use what I'm used to. But there is a part of me that says the church is the church. More and more will become involved in the business of the world. And so using the word brand will probably be appropriate as we go along in this journey. And so that's how I would answer that.

John Dehlin [01:03:33] Yeah. And I mean, it wasn't a criticism at all. It was just, you know, one of the things that I think is most interesting or compelling about your story in particular is that you, number one, have had more visibility into the operations of the church inside at sort of the highest levels. But particularly, you know, coming out of the Desert Trust Company and those interactions with Ensign Peak and the church and Deseret Management Corporation. I mean, that's a lot of the business of the church. And so. And so you do get to see kind of the church operate. It is a corporate. I mean, the church is a corporation, after all. Right. And it does marketing and it does pr and it does have a product. So, I mean, I think it's just kind of accurate or at least legitimate to speak about the church's dealings from a business perspective. Because what, however spiritual or theological it is, at the end of the day, it very much resembles a business, does it not?

Roger Hendrix [01:04:44] Okay, let's break this into two. Number one, I want to, in this instance, represent the church or explain the church. And then, number two, get into the business of the church along the lines you have said. First of all, the church is, to me, is a theology, and it is a Religion. And so these people who lead the church believe that they're leading a religion. And they may use, they may use the, the stuff of the world to help them with their ministry, but they don't believe for one minute they are a business. I can understand that. And so I could, I could frame the, my example to you a little differently or in the words that they have used. And that is they're bringing about the immortality and eternal life of families. And families will continue on forever. And so they preach, they preach the eternal nature of the family. Okay, with that said, let's now talk about the business of the church and the more and more religion, just not Mormonism, but all religion, especially in Western civilization, is not an all purpose activity anymore. With the digital revolution, with the information revolution, everything is becoming a niche. And to the degree that all things become a niche, all things in a way become a product. And the people who represent that product have to sell that product. Because people who are, who live in the world, especially in Western civilization, they won't, pretty soon they won't know what religion is as you and I knew it, because we grew up in a society that even outside of our Mormon homes, the Protestant and Catholic environment was very strong in our general communities. But the new generation coming up, they won't have a good idea about what religion is. And so what people will have to do who represent religion will have to be competing with all other, not only all other religions, but all other organizations, companies that sell a product. So even with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, they will become, they will be seen by the people of the world as a product, a niche product. And so you will have to tell them, you will have to sell the benefits of that. And people will involve themselves in testing out that product and they will want to know if they get benefit from that product. But in a digital world, they will come and go fast because they will be consumers at heart and they will be shoppers at heart. And so they'll never stop at any one product or niche for a very long time. They'll test it, they'll come, they'll go. And so you have to become very sophisticated, whether you are a religion, whether you are philosophy, whether you are a company, whether you're a sports franchise and selling that benefit very quickly and getting a certain group who digs what you're selling to really buy in and give their money and participate with you. And so in that instance, the church has spent a lot of their resources in their brand or their niche, which mom and dad and kids can live together forever. Now they have to sell that. Now the problem is that things get in the way of that brand. That is a lot of these little kiddies are going to be gay and they now with the information revolution, they know their rights and they don't have to hide themselves. And they'll associate with other gay children and they'll want to get married and they'll want to be a part of the family. And so the church will have to adjust that. And I think I know how it will adjust out in the future. And so that's why I talk about it in business terms, because a part of that is very business oriented or very niche oriented or very product oriented.

John Dehlin [01:10:40] I love it. All right, listeners, we are eight hours into our interview with Roger Hendricks. It's time to wrap up part six. What we just ended with is just a foreshadowing of more to come as I talk to Roger about the modern church and its implications. But we're still on his faith journey. And so thank you for joining us for part six of this interview with Roger Hendricks. And just know that immediately we're going to start again with part seven and we're going to keep following the chronology of Roger's faith journey and where it's led him today. And then we'll follow up with the implications for the modern church from Roger's perspective and some of your questions we'll bring to Roger as well. So, Roger, thanks for another good hour. Amazing hour. And you guys in Mormon Stories land, guys and gals, stay tuned soon. Come right back for part seven of our interview with Roger Hendricks. Thanks, everybody. Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org I hope she'll come around with time.

Guest [01:12:08] Two girls can love as big and true as any man.

John Dehlin [01:12:16] Love who youo Love is a single off the upcoming album Red Wing by singer songwriter Sarah Sample. To hear the entire album, find Sarah Sample on itunes, Spotify or@sarahsample.net

Guest [01:12:31] it is simple it isn't hard. Ain't no. You just love who you love you just love who you love love, love, love. You just love who you love you just love who you love love, love love. Love who you love you doesn't love who you who.

Reassessing Joseph Smith and Brigham Young

Part 2 of 3 · Ep. 925

Guest [00:00:00] Well, I once had a mother too. She said the things like mothers do but mothers can be wrong sometime.

John Dehlin [00:00:13] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the Donate button on the right side of the page under support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible in the United States and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support.

Guest [00:00:56] You're just in love who you love you're just in love who you love you're just a love, love, love who you love.

John Dehlin [00:01:13] This is part seven, I believe we're in the ninth hour or so of our interview. We may break a record here, but I'm not anywhere tired or ready to end. We're right smack dab in the middle of Roger's faith journey. We spoke about that in the previous, you know, in episode six, and now we're going to talk about it more. So, Roger, last we left off, you know, the church's involvement in Proposition 8, and then your daughter's coming to you and asking you about polygamy, let's just say around, you know, 2015ish, 2016, something like that, were really important moments for you as you started to engage and I think what you referred to as this Hegelian dialectic where you're trying to engage in a more deep and sophisticated and informed conversation internally in your own brain about how you reconciled Mormonism and church history and the church's civil rights record, et cetera. So maybe let's talk a bit about where you went from there. As you're listening to Mormon Stories podcast, as you're reading Rough Stone Rolling by Richard Bushman, talk to us about your evolution, on your opinions about Joseph Smith and then maybe Brigham Young.

Roger Hendrix [00:02:37] Yeah, my opinions about Joseph Smith. That's been a long journey. And my conclusion is that without a doubt, the greatest religious leader in American history and probably one of the two or three greatest religious leaders in world history. And my feeling is that there is no great religion without a great story. And Joseph Smith's story, his narrative, the myth, the story that he told just can't be beat. And, and it forces you to ask yourself if this thing is true. It encompasses everything that's ever happened in world history, and we should be a part of this movement, and we'll do anything to continue to be a part of this movement. I believe that the only religious story that I have heard that is greater than Joseph Smith's story was the Jesus story. When you have a person dying on the cross and resurrecting in three days and indicating that all of us can follow along with him, that's a hard story to beat. Muhammad didn't have a greater story. Buddha didn't have a greater story than that. Hinduism had many stories. But that Jesus story, I think, cannot be beat in the annals of religious history. But I think Joseph's story follows along with that, and that's why you've had many hundreds of thousands of people following that story, because it's compelling. I also believe that Brigham Young kind of has to be put in that group. I believe that Brigham Young is probably the second greatest religious leader in American history and at least would have to be in the top 10 in world history. And so the combination of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, the model that they created, impresses me, and I'm glad that I've been a part of that.

Listener Reactions and Roger's Ongoing Faith Journey

John Dehlin [00:05:29] So this is. I think this really hits a really critical issue in your story and in listener feedback, because so many people who listen to the first seven hours came away, number one, feeling like you're a believer. And I just received a comment on MormonStories.org saying, and this is going to sound kind of harsh. This is a harsh word. I don't like it. I almost deleted the comment because I don't like it when people insult my guests. But somebody wrote, Roger's just a shill for the church. So people are thinking by now that you're somewhere between a believer or an apologist for the church. And that's not how I experience you in my interactions with you. So, yes, Joseph's story is sort of a fantastic tale or story. Can you dig deeper about your personal faith in the religion and in the scriptural text that he produced and how that jives with your own personal beliefs now and your opinions about his character?

Roger Hendrix [00:06:39] Yeah, yeah. When I say that Joseph Smith's story is. There is no great religion without a great story, I use the term very specifically story. I believe that Joseph's what he told us, the narrative that he told us was a story. I'm pretty sure that he never used the gold plates to translate. The testimony is of those. The witnesses saw him personally, said he looked into a hat, he put stones in a hat, and he received messages. Okay. Now, some of my friends believe that he saw. He saw the stuff from the gold Plates and then translated that or told it to those who wrote it down. And I said, it's just as easily could be that he just told the story. He created the story right there, maybe picked up some documents along the way, I don't know. But I'm pretty sure a lot of that is a story that he created. Just like the resurrection story evolved over a period of a century after the life of Jesus. And so that's why these, that's why these stories are so compelling, because they're so big. And when you have a big story, you're going to have a big religion. And that's what I mean by that. And so. Well, on further evidence about Joseph, I believe this guy grew up having great confidence. He was selling his wares as a treasure hunter when he was a very young boy, and he was selling it to adults. And so he knew what adults like to hear. He was a physical man and he could take care of himself. Physically, he was robust. And so. And he heard great stories from his family. And so he wasn't afraid of the run of the mill guy. He was used to telling stories. He heard a lot of stories. There was a lot of storytelling going on in the community. And this guy, you know, in his fear, he had no peer. He was a genius. And one of my friends said, who's a very sophisticated lawyer here in this community, said, well, I couldn't make up all that stuff. And my response to him was, are you the greatest lawyer who has ever lived?

John Dehlin [00:09:56] No.

Roger Hendrix [00:09:56] He said, well, Joseph was probably the greatest religious leader that ever lived. He was a genius. And so you can't understand through just our common way of understanding ideas about guys who are outside of the margin, who push life forward. And to do that, you have to go beyond the margins. You can't be afraid. You have to have a vivid imagination. Imagination. And I believe that's what Joseph did. And then Brigham took those stories and created the Great Basin Kingdom. That's what I like the most about the church. It is we, my ancestors, your ancestors, we collectively created a new civilization, a Great Basin Kingdom.

John Dehlin [00:11:00] And

Roger Hendrix [00:11:02] that's what appeals to me more than anything else. That's in accordance with my personality and what I like doing and what, maybe I'm repeating myself. What appeals to me psychologically and intellectually. So you're talking about two of the greatest religious leaders that we've probably ever seen. I liked what they did. Now, do I believe that it happened just exactly the way Joses says it happened, or people who followed him said it Happened? No, because I believe it's a story, it's a narrative, and we're constantly refining that. Now, That's what I like. Now, where did I start coming up with that model? The book that has had the biggest impression on me, has had the biggest impact on me intellectually, has been Eric Hoffer's book, the True Believer. And this is one of the great sociological texts that I've ever read. And what he says is that all great mass movements, ideological movements, have three parts or three personalities. Number one, there's always got to be the guy with ideas and big ideas, and so the man of ideas, the person with ideas. Number two, in the movement, you have to have what is called the true believer, the person who really believes the ideas of the first guy, and he's willing to do anything to make that work. And this true believer, he's a tough guy, and he has to do tough things, and he does tough things. And then the third kind of personality that comes on the scene is the practical man of means. They're neither the man of ideas, nor are they the true believer, but they're the practical man of means who make the thing, the movement, work on an everyday basis. And so a person with great ideas is not suited to be a practical man of means. And so our religious leaders in the. In the church today, they're practical man of means. They're educated people. They know how to protect the church. They know how to market the church. They're educated to be able to solve the everyday problems of the church, but they ain't the guy with the big ideas. And they're not, quote, the sociological term for the true believer who's ready to knock heads and from a frontier, create a civilization that works for me. Now, where do I fit into that? Well, I'm a practical man of means. I came in, I knew how to organize because I became a management consultant. I knew how to teach because I was in ces, and so I knew how to move the church along from the ideas that Joseph Smith created to the kingdom that Brigham Young established. And so I, I knew how to solve problems, but I wasn't an idea guy like Joseph Smith, and I wasn't a Brigham Young, but I was the guys that come along and make it work on an everyday basis. Now, that means that there are some things that even the practical man of means they disagree with on a practical basis. That's where I fit.

John Dehlin [00:15:23] So as you are, you know, navigating this journey, you know, over the past several years, few years, there's you know, this sort of, you have this sociological philosophical lens that you've, you know, processed Joseph Smith through. Great storyteller, great leader, visionary. But let's just say there's three kind of ways that people who go deep on Joseph Smith turn out. They either kind of remain the true believer or they become apologetic where they, you know, let's say they go the Bushman or the Givens or the Mason route and we call those neo apologetics these days because classic apologetics is kind of slowly disappearing. But they go very post modern and they start redefining what does the word translation really mean and what does true really mean. And they get philosophical. But at their core they're still beginning with the position of belief and then just reshaping or redefining words and concepts to then justify a continued belief. And then there's people that say, anywhere from this doesn't work for me anymore or I don't believe this anymore. And sometimes they go all the way to, well, Joseph Smith was a bad man. He was a charlatan, he was a fraud, he was sleeping with other men's wives. He was, you know, becoming a sexual predator with young girls. The Book of Mormon was, he was claiming it was a translation when it was really a forgery. And this is a bad man hurting people. Where have you come out in that spectrum or anywhere else along the continuum?

Roger Hendrix [00:17:20] Yeah. Okay. If I've had any deep challenges with the church, I've come to the conclusion it's always on modern day social issues. Black in the priesthood era, gay, the gay issue right now. And so it always seems like I'm coming out on the wrong side, the opposite side of how the church comes out on social issues. So I just say I do not agree, nor have I really ever agreed on the church's stance on those great social issues of our time. Now, some of those I had to tolerate for obvious reasons or practical reasons on the gay issue that doesn't seem to be healing itself right yet. And so they have forced a lot of us to make a decision to. And that, that's where I'm at right now with gays and the church, the issue of homosexuality. And, and so that's where I come out now. Do I believe that Joseph Smith was a scoundrel? Do I believe he, he married other men's wives? Yeah, there was a, there, you know, great leaders, they go beyond the margins. And the normal folk, they're not used to that. And these guys will, they will press the issue because they're not afraid of the law. They're not afraid of people. They go where they want to go. And Joseph Smith went too far on. On certain issues. Now, do I believe he was inherently evil? No. Why? You can't get a mass movement like he has created along with Brigham Young and just say at the core these guys were evil because people would reject it, people would know it who were with those guys at that particular time. But do I have. Do I have conflict with the church right now on social issues? And the answer is yes.

John Dehlin [00:20:06] So what I want to do is to keep kind of drilling down to get you to talk about your beliefs, particularly, you know, the type of temple recommend questions. Is Joseph Smith, was he called as God's prophet by God? Was the Book of Mormon scripture translated through the gift and power of God? You know, is, you know, is the current president of the church God's prophet on the earth? I really want to know where you stand in terms of belief. And before I put that out there, I'm trying to figure out if I'm sensing that you don't really want to go there, if you'd rather not go there.

Roger Hendrix [00:20:49] Didn't I go there?

John Dehlin [00:20:51] No, I don't think you have.

Roger Hendrix [00:20:52] Why don't you. Can you just start asking me specific questions and I'll just tell you forthrightly what I believe?

John Dehlin [00:21:00] Okay. So was Joseph Smith called of God as a prophet to restore the gospel on the earth?

Roger Hendrix [00:21:09] I believe that Joseph Smith was created the greatest, one of the greatest stories that have ever been created. And he said that he received the revelation from God, and that's part of his story and his narrative. Now that gets into the issue of what is my belief about God. And I believe that man created God. Man has created the great stories about God. I believe that man and woman, they've created stories about God because as humans, we seem to really need God, and so we create what we need. And so I believe that Joseph Smith created a great story about God and people liked it, they loved it, and they followed him.

John Dehlin [00:22:19] So then going back to God, do you believe in an anthropomorphic heavenly father who's an exalted man who lives up on Kolob or wherever and is managing the affairs of this mortal existence and is you're the father of your spirit and the father of the human race spiritually and the governor of this earth and someone that you pray to to get guidance because you believe he's there and loves you and answers your prayers?

Roger Hendrix [00:22:51] Okay, let me ask a humble question of you. From what I've said what do you think my answer would be?

John Dehlin [00:22:57] No.

Roger Hendrix [00:22:58] Okay, there we go.

John Dehlin [00:22:59] But you don't quite want to say it.

Roger Hendrix [00:23:01] No, I don't believe that.

John Dehlin [00:23:02] Okay, and so that Jesus was the son of God and resurrected, Is that a similar story, but not something you actually believe is true, Happened that Jesus actually did rise from the dead as a resurrected being and atoned for our sins as the Son of God kind of thing?

Roger Hendrix [00:23:22] I believe it was the greatest story ever told. Do I believe it actually happened? No.

John Dehlin [00:23:29] Okay, so then if I were to ask about the Book of Mormon specifically, you know, is it an ancient record of Native Americans? Same thing.

Roger Hendrix [00:23:41] What do you think I would say?

John Dehlin [00:23:43] Okay, what?

Roger Hendrix [00:23:44] What?

John Dehlin [00:23:45] I think it sounds like I wasn't hearing enough.

Roger Hendrix [00:23:49] Just tell me, tell me.

John Dehlin [00:23:50] I think you'd say no.

Roger Hendrix [00:23:52] Okay, got your answer. No, I believe no. Well, where's the data? Where's the story? Where is the evidence? I believe that progressive leaders in the church, they say that Joseph Smith, they do say he translated the. The. The plates by the gift and power of God. And so I think what will happen in the future is they'll say that this story was created by the gift and power of God. And eventually, way out in the future, they'll say it was a great religious, spiritual story that Joseph created. I think you've got to give Joseph some credit. I mean, this guy. This guy is powerful. And so they're not going to leave, they're not going to deny Joseph Smith, but they will explain Joseph Smith, and I think they'll explain him in a way that is authentic.

John Dehlin [00:25:10] Right. But for you, the Book of Mormon isn't a historical record.

Roger Hendrix [00:25:15] Nope.

John Dehlin [00:25:16] Okay, well, that definitely makes you not a shill for the church, at least spiritually or doctrinally or theologically, just for those who are wanting to make that accusation. And that's how I perceived you as. Well, what I haven't heard from you is, okay, one question I have is at what point did you arrive at these positions? And how did you square that with your time in ces, your time as a mission president? Are these more recent conclusions you've drawn, let's say in the past five or 10 years? Or when you were a mission president and when you were in ces, did you not believe in an anthropomorphic God, in a literal atonement or resurrection? In the Book of Mormon, it's historical. And you either weren't telling the truth to the people under your stewardship, or you just were trying to not go there and not emphasize it at what point in your journey, did you realize or you know that you didn't believe these things?

Arriving at a New Relationship With God and Church

Roger Hendrix [00:26:25] I believe that God lived and was out there and guiding the affairs of man up until about 10 years ago. And then I believed that. I believe that. Then I concluded I believe that we have created great stories about God. To me, that doesn't minimize the issue. People don't create things that they don't need, and people need God. And so how Joseph Smith described God was different than how Paul described God and how the scribes who purported to write the Gospels described God. And so they were anxiously engaged in describing God. And why do they do that? Because they need God. And so I'm a big believer that we create things we need. And those things that are important to us stick around because they help us. And in my life, whether I believe God was actually guiding the affairs of mankind or that we created God, I've always seemed to be very happy with the notion of God. Yeah, I'm happy with the idea of God.

John Dehlin [00:28:02] But it wasn't until the past 10 years where you really started reaching some of these conclusions.

Roger Hendrix [00:28:08] Yeah, okay. And yes, yes.

John Dehlin [00:28:10] And was that for many people, that's this huge, dark night of the soul crisis of faith where it's like my whole identity, my whole worldview, all this time I spent was based on a real belief that this was true. Not just good, not just practical, but true. And all of a sudden I'm concluding that it's not true, and then it's kind of catastrophic. And they go through years of really deep, intense soul searching and doubt and struggle and crisis and trauma. I'm not getting a sense that you had that experience. No. When you decided everything wasn't true.

Roger Hendrix [00:28:51] No, I believe it is true, but I believe we created it. I believe things we create are true. Don't you?

John Dehlin [00:28:57] They're true to us, but they're not literally true. They're practically useful. There's a difference between useful and true.

Roger Hendrix [00:29:07] There's a difference between useful and true. I believe that people create stories and narratives because they need something. I believe we need God. We create stories. Now, do I believe he sits there on a throne? No. Now, I could be wrong, you know, but that's the conclusion I've made. And for me, it was an enlightenment. I felt better. The pieces of the puzzle came together. I was more authentic. Now, does that. Does that make me uncomfortable at times? If I feel like a missionary who has been under my charge is bothered by what I say? Yeah, I'm uncomfortable with that. But they still Know that I believe in God, but I believe we created God. I still believe that Joseph was the greatest religious leader that maybe has ever lived. But I believe he created the ideas that we have about God.

Guest [00:30:27] So

Roger Hendrix [00:30:30] I'm at peace with that. But I don't want to hurt anybody. I don't want to go to war with people on it. I could be wrong. I don't think I'm wrong. But let people with better ideas come up and challenge me.

John Dehlin [00:30:49] What has kept you from a conclusion that some draw, which is Joseph hurt people. He was a fraud. The Church isn't true. The Church is deceiving people. Some even go as far as to say the church is a culture. And now I'm going to do everything I can to take people out of the church and to bring the church down. It sounds like you haven't. You're not in that place either with Joseph or the Church or Brigham. Is that true? You're not in that place. And if so, how have you avoided those sorts of conclusions about Joseph and the Church and thus desired a to take it all down?

Roger Hendrix [00:31:32] Well, I don't want to take the Church down. Because I'm a lot of things. Ungrateful doesn't happen to be one of them. Look at of all the people I know who has received all kinds of great benefits and blessings from the Church, who has received more than I have? Not many. You know, I went into the church education system. It's a cool place to be as a teacher, especially when you're teaching institute of religion. I loved it. I had a. Just a glorious experience in having meaning in my life, attending that institute class. I love sitting down with my institute director and asking every single question I could come up with. And he took the time and he answered the questions. So I was hired by ces. I didn't make a great living, but my wife is a good manager and we were close as a family. And my wife was really big on teaching just Christian principles from the Book of Mormon and from the New Testament. And the church was a good environment, raising our children. Then it was through contacts in the Church, I was able to leave CES and have the most thrilling personal, professional experience of my life that has made me. All those things have come about as a result of my connection with the Church. Now, how am I. How the Church has been good to me and so I love the church. Now, do I have issues where I disagree? Yes. Do I have issues where it's come to a point where I really disagree? Yes. All of those are on social issues. And why is that? Because at heart, I'm liberal. And so I believe in progressive legislation. I believe in the strength of civil liberties and civil rights, and I believe in a liberal interpretation of that. I'm glad that the federal government has both passed legal decisions from the Supreme Court and congressional acts that have allowed. Wow. Have allowed us to get out of the great tragedy which is American history. And that was 200 years of slavery ending in the Civil War, the loss of 600,000 lives. We threw that off. And I'm a firm believer that we have to continue passing more legislation. It's still going to take a long, long time before African Americans feel incorporated into the American experience, all that stuff. Women's. The equality of women. I believe that until women have absolute, complete control over their bodies, there is not complete equality. So that's why. So I've always been that way, and now I seem to be at odds with my religion on that, Especially on the issue of homosexuality. The loneliness and alienation that young. That gays will feel and continue to feel, That bothers me. I will do everything in my power to make sure that we heal from that and we modernize from that. So. So that's where I stand on the social issue. I'm a social liberal.

Current Participation and Standing in the Church

John Dehlin [00:36:14] Where does that leave you in terms of your actual relationship with the church, in terms of participation, activity, you know?

Roger Hendrix [00:36:23] Yeah. In explaining this to my family and my friends, I've tried different ways of explaining this. Like, hey, I've got to take a time out here. The best one I can come up right now is, I'm taking a sabbatical now. Am I going to kiss the church off the rest of my life? I don't know. But I'm taking a sabbatical. I need to work out my relationship with the church as it relates to how we treat gays and how we handle the whole issue of gay marriage and children from gay parents. And so I would be a disruptive force. I started becoming a disruptive force in priesthood meetings. And so I felt good in saying, time out. I'm taking a sabbatical. I'm working through these things. And it just so happened that that coincided with, you know, the end of my term in Deseret Trust company. Does that negate the beautiful experiences I've had in the church? No. Did I love being a mission president? Yes. Did I believe God was out there directing the affairs of man? Yes. I've always believed that Joseph was a big man on campus. Now, do I believe that he did wrong Things? Yes. Do I believe he'll have to pay for those? Yes, and he is paying for them. Look, we still can't get beyond this polygamy issue. You know, it is purported that Joseph Smith said that the death of the Church would be this polygamy issue. Well, if he said, certainly continues to nag at us, what do we really believe? Now, let me stop there, because I could take different trains of thought, but that's the best I have right now.

John Dehlin [00:38:49] And I've come to believe that some of the most central or essential currency within the Church is, number one, authority, and number two, kind of obedience to authority and loyalty. And so some might ask, man, okay, great, Roger, you're super grateful to the Church for all it's done, all the way that it's helped you. You have interacted and engaged at some of the highest levels, certainly higher than anyone we've ever had on Mormon stories. I mean, Hans Mattsson was an area authority, but he was over Europe, and he may have met an apostle a time or two, but he certainly wasn't over 18 years on the board of directors of a real central part of the Church's business operations. He wasn't necessarily called to that position by Gordon McGinkley himself. Like someone might say to you, Roger, if you're so grateful and if you've been allowed to be in the inner circle and if loyalty is of the utmost currency, why in the world are you speaking out on Mormon stories of all places? That's not loyal. That's not healthy for the Church. That's probably very disloyal, probably makes people really uncomfortable, and it's certainly not a way to show your gratitude for all the wonderful things the Church has done for you. How would you respond to that sort of question?

Roger Hendrix [00:40:25] Or maybe it has. Maybe it is a contribution to the Church. Maybe I am helping. I believe in the dialogue and coming on Mormon stories. It took me two or three years to make up my mind that I would want to do that. In fact, I had come to the conclusion I never wanted to do it. But also I have this desire to enter into the dialogue and the debate. And. And so if that's disloyal, so be it. I believe that the. We have all been taken by surprise by this marvelous thing called the Internet and the, The. The digital revolution. And I believe that the. The 12 in that leaked bubble presentation, I think they got it right. I think on the left, they have John Dehlin speaking a truth that we had not thought of and having the courage to do it. I believe that the Denver snuffer and the snuff rights movement is talking to the right. The very, very most conservative people want to get back to the original experiences that they think Joseph Smith created. And then I think the church is in the middle. And I think it's forcing the church leadership to examine their very most core beliefs, what they represent. And so I think we're in. In the dialogue, and I respect that. You know, getting back to my gratitude to George Hagel, it's all about all of us participating with our ideas. And do I believe the church will survive? Yeah, I do. I think in my other discussions, I told you what I think the church will look like in the future.

John Dehlin [00:42:54] And that was basically more of a niche organization targeting a very specific subset of people versus a global church trying to target the whole world.

Roger Hendrix [00:43:06] I believe that. I believe that the church leadership has said and they've shown through their actions that we want people to prepare and go to the temple, to wear the temple garment, to pay their tithing, to participate at the war and stake level in callings, and they believe that that core will become larger and stronger. Now, do I believe it'll become 60, 70 million strong, like Rodney Stark said? No, I don't. And that's proven to be the case. And there are demographers that say there's a top end to this growth. Do I believe that the church will continue to send out missionaries to preach the gospel to the world? Yes. Do I believe that a lot of them will not make it to the point of going in the temple, paying the tithing, and becoming part of that rite? Why do I believe that? Because that's. Because that's what the data shows. So I think the church will continue to be strong with that core. Now going a step further. Its challenge will be that it will become a niche category, maybe even a niche product. Why do I believe that? Because I no longer believe that the general population in Europe and in America, we all grow up with the foundations of the fundamentals of Christianity. And so with the generations coming up that don't have the background in Christian teachings and obvious Christian teachings that are even taught in the schools, the church will have to be very specific in drawing attention to people who will become interested. And there will be a lot of competition, both from other religions and businesses who have to sell products. They'll make their niche products look as attractive as they possibly can, and so be it. Do I. Do I believe that's good? Yeah, I do. I believe people have got to compete and sharpen, you know, they have to go back and focus on their ideas, what's the most important thing, and kind of get rid of the stuff that is tangential or peripheral to what they really are. So that's what I believe.

John Dehlin [00:46:22] Going back to that bubble chart for a second, you know, there was me in Mormon stories, there was ordained women that was listed. There was the stuffers on the right. You know, there's pornography on there. There's, you know, I got a sense they used some coded language to refer to kind of liberal, progressive or even multicultural influences. You know, this. I would love for you to see if you could help us get a bit of an insight or a window into kind of the Brethren and what they, what they think and how they're processing things. So let me ask a couple specific questions about that. I remember a lunch we had where I, you know, I asked you probably the most common question I get asked, if I had to, if I just sort of tell you the one question that I get asked the most. It's given the broad awareness of the problems with the church history, the social problems, you know, the stuff that you knew in the 70s that the brethren shut down, the Leonard Arrington administration over because they realized the cat was getting out of the bag, that the can of worms was opening and we were going to infect all these members with the truth about our history. So we've got to shut it down and punish anyone who talks about it. You know, from that history emerges this question. You know, you can't really know all that stuff and still believe. And so the most common question I get is, do the First Presidency of the Quorum of the twelve, do they all still really believe that it's all literally true? And can you conceive of at least some of them who really at some point became kind of like you did, where they're philosophical, they see the Church as practically true, but in their heart they know that they're not, that the Church isn't really what it claims to be. Can you talk to that your opinion about whether there are some apostles or even First Presidency members who actually don't believe?

What Church Leaders May Actually Believe

Roger Hendrix [00:48:41] Well, I believe, first of all, I think they would laugh if they heard that Roger Hendricks was opining on what they personally believed. And I'm not so sure they wouldn't be right. But here is my personal feeling about human behavior. No two people occupy the same position on all issues all of the time. And why do I believe that? Because we have so many opinions and the members of the quorum of the 12. Just like the members of the Curry and the Catholic Church, they have opinions. And so from that they try to get as close to the truth as they possibly can. And yes, these men better believe it. Now, will they continue to refine their beliefs? I think so. I mean, look at the essays that have come out and certainly look at the essays that have come out. They basically said there has never been a doctrine other than Brigham Young's private preference that the blacks not receive the priesthood. Now, when you look at President Kimball's account of what happened in the temple, there were still apostles who. That was hard for them to come by that. But finally they had this incredible spiritual experience where they knew the prophet was speaking the truth. And now all the way from there to, oh, you know, this was just Brigham Young's personal, personal opinion. And it got in the church and we're now snuffing it out. And it never did have any substance or doctrinal basis. Now some. Somebody's changed somewhere, you know, and I got to imagine it's the leadership of the Church that has changed on that. And they get information and they pray about it and they discuss it and they move along. And in that regard, they're like most of us. I tell people who ask me, if they ask me, well, what do you think the brethren are thinking in the quorum of the 12? I say, well, get around to ward council and listen to what people say around the war council. And that's probably what they're saying at the highest levels. Why? Because people say the same things. And so when issues come up before them, they will express their opinions. And I've got to imagine they express their opinions like that or similarly at every level of the Church. Does it bother me?

John Dehlin [00:52:06] No.

Roger Hendrix [00:52:07] Why? Because to a certain extent, the Church is an organization. It operates on human qualities and organizational qualities, and I have no problem with that. As a matter of fact, I never have.

John Dehlin [00:52:24] So within that framework, which makes a lot of sense to me, does that mean you can envision somebody who's actually in the twelve Apostles or in the First Presidency? Can you envision it within the realm of possibility or even probability that some of them don't believe the Book of Mormon is historical and may even don't believe this is, quote, the one true Church? Is that within the realm of probability for you?

Roger Hendrix [00:52:53] Well, I don't know about that. I know BH Roberts didn't think the Book of Mormon was historical. And the First Presidency gave Joseph Fielding Smith and BH Robert plenty of opportunity publicly to bait the. To debate that issue. And they went along with what Joseph Feelings said. That doesn't mean they can't pull out of the drawer and go along with what B.H. roberts says. And in the future, that might happen. But right now, I think these 15 men are very comfortable with what they believe. And I think that there has been an evolution, namely on the black issue. I'm happy with the revelation President Kimball had. I'm happy that the Brethren were convinced to go, who were convinced spiritually, they said to go, to understand that President Kimball was speaking the truth. I'm glad they let blacks have the priesthood. I'm glad they have the essay that says it never was, it should never have been an issue. I'm glad about that. Now I've got to assume that on these social issues, you know, I have my own ego. You know, I have confidence in my thought processes. Do I believe that we will become in the future more and more progressive about gay marriages, children of gay couples, how we handle homosexuality? Yeah, I've got to believe that that's going to be the case. And especially Mormon families, if we continue to have bigger families than the norm, and we know that statistically gay children are born at a certain rate, that means probably in Mormon families, we'll have a lot of gay kids. And so I think parents. Parents are not going to abandon their children. And that kind of strikes at one of the cores that has allowed me to take a stronger stand personally on homosexuality.

How the Brethren Process Doubt and Dissent

John Dehlin [00:55:28] Again, touching back on that bubble chart, some of the more fascinating conversations I've had are around how you think the Brethren may have processed what was going on in the 2005-2015s, that kind of decade that was so influential, I think, in shaping the modern church. And I remember saying to you, you know, I'm just some guy. These are all really brilliant men, and they're really sophisticated. And then I also think about what you just said maybe 30 minutes ago, which is that, you know, you see this as a Hegelian dialectic that we're all in. Engaged in. And you like that bubble chart because it shows the different players in the conversation at a higher level, and you think it's healthy that this church is experiencing this dialogue. I would wonder if you would think that the Brethren perceive this dialogue as being healthy and good for the church. Are they glad Denver Snuffer is out there shaking it up? Are they grateful Mormon stories? Is there? Are they loving ordained women? I think we all would say no. They say see it as an existential These things as potentially existential threats to the church, and they're annoyed and they want to kill all these things and stamp them out and make them all go away. So what do you imagine their thought process is when they look at ordained women swelling when they look at Mormon stories, listenership and influence growing when they hear about CES letters, Are they, as you, enjoying the dialectic? Take us to what you think their thought process is on all that.

Roger Hendrix [00:57:16] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:57:17] And how they respond and whether you think it's wise or not.

Roger Hendrix [00:57:19] You know, first of all, you don't always enjoy the dialectic. The dialectic will always make you feel uncomfortable because every position you take results in yet another position being taken. And so to me, honesty is giving that alternative position weight, understanding it up against your own position to see what new synthesis will be born from that. So I don't always enjoy the dialectic.

John Dehlin [00:58:00] Not even this one.

Roger Hendrix [00:58:02] You know, I think, I think there is a portion of your listenership that, you know, they want me to just be bitter about the church and throw it down. I'm just, I'm not. I'm definitely not a neo apologist.

John Dehlin [00:58:28] We're talking about that next episode, by the way.

Roger Hendrix [00:58:30] Excuse me.

John Dehlin [00:58:31] No, no, no, no, no, no. I'm just saying I'm foreshadowing there's more good stuff to come.

Roger Hendrix [00:58:36] And so do I believe that the brethren like what John de Lynn is doing with Mormon stories or Kate Kelly did Thord Dane women or Denver Snufford? No, not at all. Why? I think they believe it's a heresy. But no company I've ever consulted for, no sports team I've ever been a part of, no organization that I've been a part of lauds or gives plaudits to the competition or to the alternative thoughts. And so that's the present disposition. I think they believe that Denver snuffers a heresy. I believe and I believe that John Dehlin makes them. Well, they, you know, they held a court on John Dolan. What more can I say? They don't like it. With respect to John Dehlin, I say I've always felt that John Dehlin at heart loves the church, loves it maybe as much as he loves anything in this life and has been hurt by what he has found out and is taking that hurt and those insights to the public, letting them weigh it. And what is it I admire about John? You, John, it is how you got the courage to do this. And I admire that. And I wouldn't be here in somewhat of a risk position for me if I didn't believe that, if I didn't have a lot of admiration for you in doing this. See. While we're here, other questions.

John Dehlin [01:00:44] Yeah. So to end this session, I'll end with this. And this is, this is again, kind of speculation. It's fun to do it, but let's just call it what it is. Let's just, you know, you're a management consultant. Let's just say it's 2013. You know, the Obama, you know, the Romney stuff is done. The church is realizing that it's going to, you know, the same sex marriage stuff at the Supreme Court is really heating up. Ordained women is starting to really throb in the church's pain center. Mormon Stories is really getting its momentum. CES letter comes out. Denver Snuffer is starting to really get his movement and his books are selling and he's getting a following. And that's kind of what 2013 was. It was this culmination of these influences where post the Romney Mormon moment, the church realized it needed to deal with a few things that were starting to gain momentum. Let's say they called Roger Hendricks, management consultant in and said, roger, we've got these serious problems. We've got awareness of church history that's taken, you know, European and North American members out of the church, very affluent, well educated members out of the church at an unacceptably high rate. We've got Denver Snuffer on the right flank, you know, taking members away, making them more fundamentalist in their theology, peeling them off, having their own baptisms and expecting us to live too much in accordance with the Book of Mormon. That's really making us uncomfortable. And then we've got these crazy women out there protesting temple square in the middle of general conference, disrupting things, demanding equal footing. Roger, you know, we want to thrive as an institution. We've got our brand that we care about. We care about butts and seats, people who are faithful and loyal and committed, who will serve in their callings. And we need money to run this church. You know, we need to keep our income solid because we've got all these assets we need to maintain and grow. Roger, help us respond to, to these threats. You know, save us Obi Wan. Well, can you, can you speculate as to what your recommendations back then would have been or did they do the right thing based on their best interests? And you can take each one separately if you want.

Roger Hendrix [01:03:34] Really, there's a lot to unpack here. Let me just swing out a little bit. First of All I think, believer and non believer and disaffected, as well as a church loyalist. What we have to understand, all of us have to understand about the church is that it doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is what the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve decide upon. For example, Joseph Smith is only important as interpreted by the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve. So those brethren, they don't have to buy everything about Joseph Smith, but what they do buy about Joseph Smith, that's important for the members to understand. And so the first thing is members have to understand that people who are disaffected have to understand that that that's the only thing that matters. And they will interpret that. That's why they're there. And so I would say that, you know, pull in your ranks, understand that you have great power and great resources, and it's because you have a strong core of authority and leadership. And that there are people in this world who really dig that, love that, and. And that's really what they love. And you seem to be pretty successful at that. The next thing I would say would be minister. Make sure you minister to them, which they do. Make sure you give them everything they want. And what they want is they want the temple experience, they want the temple recommendations, they want the priesthood garment, they want those very fundamental things, and that's what they're doing. And they'll continue to be strong that way. With respect to the competition, you just have to be very clear on who you are. And that's the best thing you do and keep working that. What people outside of the church are disaffected from the church is to understand that the church has to look after its own interests. It has huge obligations from the programs it operates, and it will need members to pay tithing. I'm all for that. I have no problem with that. If you love it and you believe them and you understand what the First Presidency and the quorum of 12 represent and you like the positions they take, you're going to give money to that because that represents your interests as well. So I don't have any problem with that, nor do I have problems. If you have disagreements. And I don't believe disagreements are bad. I don't believe people who disagree are bad. And do I believe that they help? Yes. But from that standpoint, they don't want Denver Snuffer to succeed, and they don't want anything on the left to succeed other than what they believe is right and true. And anybody who is in Any corporation. We all have to fight for our survival, don't we? And the church and the leadership, they understand they have to grow the church and they have to protect their members. And that's what those folks are doing. With respect to me, I have a disagreement on a social issue. I believe that's okay. I don't want to rip down the church. I'm not bitter at the church. I have a disagreement with. On a social issue. What's wrong with that? You know? And what's wrong with me taking that kind of position? Nothing. Do I want to kill? You know, the competition?

John Dehlin [01:08:56] No,

Roger Hendrix [01:09:00] I don't use words like kill and destroy. I believe. Sharpen your focus. Know what you really want to do. And those guys do. And have I answered enough of those questions?

John Dehlin [01:09:14] Yeah, let me. Yes. And let me just drill a little more. So they say ordain women.

High-Profile Disciplinary Cases and Their Meaning

Roger Hendrix [01:09:18] Drill a little more.

John Dehlin [01:09:20] They say ordain women. Roger, it's getting out of control. What do we do about ordain women? Do we exclamate? Do we excommunicate Kate Kelly or is there some other path? What would your advice had been in 2013?

Roger Hendrix [01:09:34] They've already told us they've excommunicated Kate Kelly.

John Dehlin [01:09:38] But what would you have recommended? Would there have been a wiser approach from their best self interest or did they do the most rational, wise thing based on their self interest?

Roger Hendrix [01:09:53] I think that of all the. I think that they probably need to clear those folks out. Not that you and I would disagree with those folks, but I think in the process of sharpening their own message, they also have to tell you what their message isn't. And so they don't. They. They don't think their message is Denver Snuffer. They don't believe their message is Kate Kelly. And I'll be honest with you, I would hope that they would just love John De Lynn and understand how much he loves the church. It that card wasn't dealt that way. I feel bad about that. But I also believe you have flourished. So that's kind of how I'd answer that.

John Dehlin [01:10:57] So in some sense they did act in their best interest.

Roger Hendrix [01:11:01] Yeah. In that instance, they are acting to make sure people know what they don't believe.

John Dehlin [01:11:11] And with the history stuff though, it's just people talking about the factual history that's making them uncomfortable. So it's not so much. I guess there's a difference between the Jeremy Runnels and let's just say me because we're not like ordained women trying to define the church in a way it doesn't want to be defined necessarily. Or with Denver Snuffer, we're just saying, hey, there's these problems of the history come clean that's different than the identities that maybe Kate Kelly or Denver Snuffer wanted to foster within the church. Or is it not?

Roger Hendrix [01:11:46] Well, I think that, I think that's a good question. Yeah. I think Denver Snuffer and Kay Kelly were trying to create something, I think the CES letter and John Dehlin were trying to say, you know, come clean on this stuff. For the life of me, I've read that CES letter and those questions been around. I'm surprised that got such great traction that it did. But, but aren't with the essays and the new books being written, aren't they coming clean on church history that maybe they didn't want to be shared with the members or the public? Or haven't they come clean on the, on the polygamy and haven't they come clean on the black and the priesthood? I mean, they're coming along. I can't, I, I can't see that they haven't. That's how I would answer that, John.

John Dehlin [01:13:02] All right, we're closing in on another hour, and we do have one more episode to go, and we're going to be focusing on Roger's reactions and views around the new kind of neo apologetic movement that's springing up with Bushman, with Terrell and Fiona Givens, with Patrick Mason, Spencer Fluman and kind of that crowd, what, you know, Greg Prince, even I know Roger has some strong feelings or thoughts around that. And we're going to be asking Roger a series of questions that many of you have written in. There have been questions about the second anointing. There have been questions about James Hamila, the first quorum of the 70, I think, presidency member who has recently excommunicated. And we have a lot more questions from you. So don't go away. Stay tuned. Come right back for our final and it will be our final segment with Roger Hendricks, who's been marvelous and delightful and intriguing and maddening and enlightening so far. So thanks, Roger, for another hour.

Roger Hendrix [01:14:19] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:14:20] We'll see you soon.

Roger Hendrix [01:14:21] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:14:21] Come right back. MormonStories.org thanks, everybody. Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org I hope she'll come around with time.

Guest [01:14:46] Two girls can love as Breaking True.

John Dehlin [01:14:54] Love. Who you love is a single off the upcoming album red wing by singer songwriter sarah sample. To hear the entire album, find sarah sample on itunes, Spotify or at sarah sample,

Guest [01:15:23] You just love who you love you just love who you love love, love, love, love you just love who you love you just love who you love love, love, love. Love who you love you to love who you love you just.

Part 3 of 3 · Ep. 926

Roger Hendrix [00:00:00] Well, I once had a mother too. She said the things like mothers do. But mothers can be wrong sometimes.

John Dehlin [00:00:13] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners. To help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community, Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the Donate button on the right side of the page under support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible in the United States and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support.

Roger Hendrix [00:00:56] You're just in love who you love you're just in love who you love. You just love, love, love.

Second Anointing and Sensitive Listener Questions

John Dehlin [00:01:12] Hello everyone and welcome back to our record breaking interview with Dr. Roger Hendricks. I'm John Dehlin. This is Mormon Stories podcast. It is May 16, 2018. We're in our 10th hour now of an interview with Roger Hendricks and I've been loving every minute of it and I think it's been worth every single minute. Roger is delighted and surprised and sometimes maddened me and others, all in good ways. All in the spirit of the Hegelian dialectic that we've talked about now for a couple hours. But I'm loving this and I have at least an hour's worth more of questions for Roger again served as a mission president and stake presidency and served on the board of Deseret Trust Company for 18 years and has insight that many of us just do not or will not ever have into how things are thought about and done inside the church. And so we're picking his brain and I've got a lot of questions and I'm sharing questions from you. So here we go. You ready? Roger, you buckled in for the last hour?

Roger Hendrix [00:02:28] I can hardly wait.

John Dehlin [00:02:32] All right. One of the first questions I received after sharing your first seven hours of interviews is people want to know, number one, if you've received the second anointing, and that's a really sensitive issue, you may not even want to talk about it. But I thought I'd ask the question we've had Tom Phillips on in Mormon Stories. If you haven't listened to that episode, it's a top three episode of all time in terms of it being impactful and reaching people, where Tom Phillips, former Stake President, discusses him receiving this ordinance. It's called the second anointing, where you're basically told that you've arrived in the celestial kingdom. It kind of doesn't matter what you and what I've heard is not only does it not matter what you or your spouse does, but even your children, you're all saved in the celestial kingdom. And it's this sort of almost an indulgence of an ordinance that is secretly partitioned out to, you know, the most perceived devout and or obedient, influential members of the church. So what would you want to say to that question, Roger?

Roger Hendrix [00:03:38] Well, after these 10 hours, I would hope so, but no.

John Dehlin [00:03:43] You haven't received it?

Roger Hendrix [00:03:44] No.

John Dehlin [00:03:45] Do you wish you had?

Roger Hendrix [00:03:46] No.

John Dehlin [00:03:47] Do you have an opinion about just that ordinance itself? Whether you like the idea of the ordinance? Like it. Does it raise strong emotions in you at all?

Roger Hendrix [00:03:58] Well, I think that's one of the. I think that's one of the intriguing things about the church and its origins, and that is you keep peeling it back. And there are more. More of these types of things like the second anointing, and that are secret, they're private, they're profound to the people who go through them. And so, no, I don't have anything against them, but the reality is we have them. During the period of time I was growing up, the David O. McKay period, they started cutting back on those types of things, and then they started them up again. So you can only surmise why they did. Nevertheless, it's more common than it was. And I don't happen to be one of those who has gone through the second anointing.

John Dehlin [00:05:07] Is this an ordinance you would have been aware of for the decades, you know, you've been in the church and in leadership positions, or is this something you would have learned about recently?

Roger Hendrix [00:05:18] No, I knew about the second anointing. And, you know, one time you try to find out what your calling and election made sure is and what the second comforter is and what the second anointing is, and you try and figure those things out. And so, yes, I had a. I had a simplistic knowledge of it.

John Dehlin [00:05:46] The second kind of most popular question we received is around James Hamila, and I think someone noted up in the same area that he comes from. Is that true?

Roger Hendrix [00:05:56] Yeah, Long Beach.

John Dehlin [00:05:57] Does that mean you would have ever known him or bumped into him?

Roger Hendrix [00:06:00] Well, probably someplace, sometime when we were growing up, yes. But I don't know him. I haven't met him formally.

John Dehlin [00:06:11] Okay, so people wanted to know if you had any insight into why he was excommunicated.

Roger Hendrix [00:06:16] No. No. You know, there are certain things you get excommunicated for, and so your guess is as good as mine. Usually when those things happen, I feel terrible for the person who goes through them? You know, he's gone through sleepless nights. Hopefully he is at peace with himself and has come to terms with what has happened. Other than that, I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:06:47] Yeah, I think. I think those three things, and this may even come from you, are kind of financial impropriety, sexual indiscretion, or apostasy. Are those the three likely candidates?

Roger Hendrix [00:07:01] Yeah, Yeah, I did say that to you in a. In an email. I didn't call it apostasy. I called it the big A. So there we go.

John Dehlin [00:07:11] Yeah. Okay. Are you still a member of record, and did you ever consider resignation from the church?

Roger Hendrix [00:07:20] No, no, I'm a member of record. And no, I've never considered resignation from the church.

John Dehlin [00:07:28] Why not?

Roger Hendrix [00:07:30] Why isn't what I've done enough at this point? Who knows how much more will come? I hope nothing more, but no, nothing more should happen. No, I never considered resigning.

John Dehlin [00:07:57] Do you worry about them coming after you with some sort of disciplinary counsel for this interview?

Roger Hendrix [00:08:06] Well, we'll see. I don't think so. How can you, you know, why would they come after me for just being honest, And I don't have any fear of that. Did I maybe have the question? Yes, but no, not anymore.

John Dehlin [00:08:29] When you talk about maybe, I think you referred last episode or in a lunch to there being some risk for you and your family at doing this interview. What. What do you perceive as the possible risks?

Roger Hendrix [00:08:44] Well, you know, my wife says, roger, you know, why the hassle? You know, let's just sell off into the sunset. And there is always a risk when you put yourself out there in public and. And you state your own opinions. And so is there a risk there will be criticisms of me for this, both on the conservative side and the liberal side. There will be those who like it. But when you state your opinions publicly, you know that that's going to create friction. And you've got to believe that that's a good thing, that that's healthy. And I believe this is healthy. I believe I'm better for having done it. I'm grateful that you asked me to do it. So come at peace with it.

John Dehlin [00:09:55] My guess is either, you know, within the current church leadership structure or people that used to be within the current. Within the past church leadership structure. There have been others who have traveled a similar intellectual, philosophical, and theological path where they've arrived at many of the same conclusions that you have. Maybe some of them are still serving in the ranks of church leadership. You know, stake presidencies, mission presidencies, general authorities, even first quorum of the, you know, first presidency or quorum of the 12, who knows? And then there's people that used to, we, we heard about Grant Palmer claiming that a former high ranking 70 has come to him and, and admitted that he doesn't believe anymore. And, and, and you know, a lot of people wonder and speculate, will others, you know, whistleblowers speak out, people in high levels of leadership, but very few have. Hans Mattsson and you and Tom Phillips are about as high as it's gone. And who knows if there'll be others. But I had a question for you. I loved your answer to this at lunch. What made you. All these other people that have probably been through this have chosen to stay silent. I have many people reach out to me. They're like, I don't believe anymore. I'm very well connected. I have parents or grandparents that are apostles. And you know, I'm close friends with XYZ people. So I can't ever talk about it. I can't ever come out. What led to your decision to be vocal? And especially I loved what you said about how it relates to your, to your posterity. Can you talk about that, why you spoke out when so many are afraid or hesitant to do so?

Writing, Speaking Out, and Personal Risks

Roger Hendrix [00:11:48] Well, first of all, I've been writing and speaking out for many years. I've published and they call it written posts, but we're going on 400 published articles and posts. And so I've written about a lot of things and I have made my living the last 35 years speaking publicly now, maybe not about theological questions, but sometimes along the road, especially down south when they know I'm a Mormon, they ask a lot of demanding questions of me. And so I found the best way is to be efficient, be honest, like I said, be straightforward. Don't over explain it, just state it. And so on this social issue that seems to not be going away, which is relating to our positions on homosexuality. On the one hand, I admire President Nelson for what he did, and that is he cleared the table. He took the issue of gay marriage and homosexuality in general off the table by what he said and the policy that came out, the November 2015 policy, right.

John Dehlin [00:13:32] And then his subsequent statement that it was doctrine.

Roger Hendrix [00:13:35] Right. And so for his term in office, he has made it clear this is where we stand, this is what we believe, and this is what we're going to put in practice. And so everyone is clear on that. And so everyone has to create their position vis a vis the position he has taken. But you have to admire A man who is clear who has been responsible for creating a policy, and they've made it clear that it is a policy. And so I always believe that's key, for that's not doctrine. And so maybe someday it'll change, just like the black issue. When they came out and said it's policy and not doctrine. Well, at one time they did teach that it was doctrine. And then during the Hubie Brown, David O. McKay, they changed that to policy. And then from policy, they changed it.

John Dehlin [00:14:43] The mistake.

Roger Hendrix [00:14:45] And now to, yeah, to the LDS essay said it was a mistake. So you can't say they haven't changed, and you can't say they haven't been methodical about it. So I know where President Nelson stands. I know where his counselors stand because they back him up. And the quorum of the 12. So where do I stand? And when I was thinking about this and taking a sabbatical, and a sabbatical means, you know, you're, you know,

John Dehlin [00:15:22] you're

Roger Hendrix [00:15:22] taking some time out, you're thinking about it, it doesn't cut off that you will return. So here is my thought process with respect to homosexuality. And that is I'm thinking out when my grandchildren are adults, young adults, or even my great grandchildren, if I live that long. And I can see them coming to me and saying, grandpa, I'm gay. I love this partner. I'm going to get married to this partner. What do you think? And I can see myself saying, hey, there is no problem with you being gay. Just enjoy life and know that I love you. And then I can imagine that gay child saying, well, do you still follow the policy of the church on this? And then if I say yes, then I will have to explain. And so I'm a big believer that when you're explaining, you're losing. So I'm just going to say, I knew this day would come. I knew you would come and ask me that question. And I've sacrificed maybe the thing I love the most, and that's active participation in the church. And I did this for you. I wanted you to know that I'm squaring off the angles here and being consistent. And why did I do it? Because I love you. And what does that mean for me personally? That means I'm concerned about the 1. Don't want them to suffer. Want them to know that I did that for them. It's that simple.

John Dehlin [00:17:43] I love that. What if a granddaughter, great granddaughter comes to you and says, hey, I believe in equality of gender. Sometimes it feels like I'm A second class citizen in this church. You haven't mentioned kind of gender equality and female ordination a lot in your expressions. It's mostly been around blacks and then LGBT people. Do you want to just go on the record about your passions or lack of passions around female equality and even ordination?

Roger Hendrix [00:18:18] I'm big into the women thing. Until a woman, a female is equal in all things, they're equal in nothing. And then the whole idea of democracy and what we stand for is a sham. And so equal means equal, as Abraham Lincoln said. And so I believe in that. And I believe that personally. I believe the leadership of the church is moving pretty quickly in that direction. They now publicly say there's mother in heaven. We've always known there was a mother in heaven. Now it's official and it's out in the open and, and now mission presidents, their wives have been given authority to be more involved in the sisters lives and the sisters are now leaders in the mission. Do I believe someday they will get the priesthood? Yeah. And what speaks of that? Well, our most sacred ordinances speak of that. So I think that that's squaring off the round circles on that issue.

John Dehlin [00:19:57] You mentioned not resigning to leave open the possibility of returning. What would it take? What changes would it take for the church to make for you to reactivate other than LGBT and gender equality? Is there anything else or would those two things be enough to bring you back?

Roger Hendrix [00:20:16] You know, I haven't gone that far. Like I said, I'm on a sabbatical and right now I'm sort of a one issue guy on that.

John Dehlin [00:20:26] And,

Roger Hendrix [00:20:29] you know, it was getting to the point that I was just a pain in the gospel doctrine class and in the priesthood class. And the particular ward I belong to has a lot of. Members of families who have been apostles and prophets and that type of thing. And so they. I would shake things up too much and so. And I just thought I was having fun and doing what I've always done, ask questions. And so, you know, I have no desire to go back and be a nuisance. That's kind of how I feel right now.

John Dehlin [00:21:22] So, Ann, Ann, in response to, I think, you know, the, the part of your story where you were sort of offered or hinted around the idea of an area authority position and that you kind of politely declined. She wrote. How can you turn down a calling? None of the rest of us were allowed to do that. What would your response to Ann be?

Roger Hendrix [00:21:46] Oh, my gosh. Well, let's get the facts straight. I was told that Loren C. Dunn was going to call me. And we arranged a time I was still a mission president. He called me and he says he has something in mind for me. He was the president of the California area. Maybe I assumed too much, but the moment I said I didn't turn down the call, I said I wouldn't be moving to Southern California. And that's where he had the authority to issue calls. And so that's all I said. And, you know, why did I turn down a call that the rest of us couldn't turn down? I didn't turn down the call. The call was not issued. I think I've been clear on those facts. And I just said I wouldn't be moving back to Southern California. Then I shared the experience of being, you know, taken into this modest little cafeteria where the general authorities eat, and I assume that they were. I made some assumptions about why I was there, and I also made comments on why I didn't know why the heck I was there. And so things worked out for me, but I never turned down the call.

John Dehlin [00:23:18] Okay, but if someone were to say to you, hey, Mormons can't turn down calls, let's just say an active, even semi believing or believing member says that to you, what would you say to them about the ability for a member to turn down a call?

Roger Hendrix [00:23:35] Well, you know, that's sort of a hypothetical that we turn down calls all the time. You know, I. When Elder Scott said, well, I was thinking about 18 months, you know, for the possibility of being a mission president. And. But you, you know, maybe it's five years, you know, I got the impression I could make that decision. So I was kind of up on five years. And so people turn down calls for all different sorts of reasons. And so this isn't, you know, this isn't in cement, but as a general principle, when you're called to something, they want you to accept it. But that doesn't mean that people turn, that they don't turn down calls. There are different reasons and, and different conditions. And sometimes the presiding authority will pull back the call if they believe it'll be too much. So there are a lot of different conditions relative to callings in the church.

John Dehlin [00:24:49] Green tea, what's that about? And was that controversial when you decided to get into that business?

Roger Hendrix [00:24:56] My two sons. Let's see, let me go back in management consulting. I had created two management consulting firms, and I wanted to create another business with my family. So I told one of my sons, you know, I wanted. I want to get into a business that's tied to the environment. Well, the idea they brought to me, or my son brought to me wasn't about the environment. It was about health and it was about creating a new product called Green thp. So I was a little concerned about it at first, but they wanted to do it, they did it. I supported him. I did all the initial financing for it. And there was a little bit of stir about it.

John Dehlin [00:26:01] And as you were, like, speaking on KSL Radio and that's owned by Bonneville, is that right, or.

Roger Hendrix [00:26:09] I, I, I was Green THP sponsored a, had bought time on the radio. And then I went on the radio doing a commentary which was called the Green THP Report and the corporate. And then, and then there was a letter of concern that was written. You know, how could a person like myself, you know, be a sponsor of Green thp? And, you know, and usually those letters come from people who know you and kind of want to stick it to you. And so a letter was written. I received the letter. I was asked to respond to it. I responded to it. Never heard anything more about it. Corporate lawyers at Bonneville looked into it and said, it's an herbal tea.

John Dehlin [00:27:10] Is it?

Roger Hendrix [00:27:12] You know, I just think it's green tea. And so it makes it tea. Yeah. And so, you know, that's it. But that was, that was a season ago, a long time ago. And so that's, so what was your question?

John Dehlin [00:27:37] That was just, just that I just wanted you to tell that story. And is green tea healthy for you? Do you still support it?

Roger Hendrix [00:27:43] Of course.

John Dehlin [00:27:44] All right.

Roger Hendrix [00:27:45] Of course.

John Dehlin [00:27:45] Check it out. Okay. Tell me if I'm wrong, but I, My memory is that my recent interview with Greg Prince, especially the live interview I did after interviewing him about his Leonard Arrington book, and especially that last 30 to 40 minutes where I really grill him about his testimony, which is quite nuanced. That might have been kind of the. I don't want to say straw that broke the camel's back, but kind of that last push that made you come to me and say, okay, I think I'm ready to do this interview now. You've given quite a sophisticated, philosophical, you know, analysis or exposition about your beliefs and your approach to the church. So what was it? And I don't know if it's fair to say his testimony angered you or upset you or annoyed you or frustrated you. What emotions did Greg Prince's testimony and interview stir in you, and what was it about that that pushed you over the edge and made you want to do this interview?

Roger Hendrix [00:28:55] Well, that certainly wasn't the Only thing.

John Dehlin [00:28:58] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Roger Hendrix [00:28:59] No, that wasn't the only thing that pushed me over to do this interview. Greg Prince. Greg Prince is, in my humble opinion, is the most sophisticated scholar you've had on Mormon stories. And I mean, this guy actually came up with. With a cure to a disease. I mean, he's a forensic scholar of the first order, and he answers his questions with that kind of precision order until he gets to his testimony. And then, you know, I just believe he obfuscates a little bit. He doesn't come clear on it. He gets a little political, in my opinion. Now, I can hardly wait to hear what the folks are going to have to say about my explanations. So there are no winners here. And so he did the best he could do on that particular subject, but he didn't necessarily answer it with the precision that I thought he would. And by the way, I think he's been the most precise scholar you've ever had on this. Honest, forthright. And that's how I feel about Greg Prince. That's it.

John Dehlin [00:30:40] When we zoom out a bit and we look at, you know, Richard Bushman on the one hand coming out with Rough Stone Rolling, on the other hand touring the world, giving firesides to encourage people to stay faithful. When you look at Terrell and Fiona Givens and the crucible of doubt and the God who weeps and the Christ who heals again, running around the world holding these secret private firesides to try and keep people in the church. When you think about Patrick Mason in his book planted, Thomas McConkie in his book about navigating a faith crisis, and this whole new Adam Miller, this whole new era of neo apologetics where it's a bit postmodern, where it's not about whether the church is true, it's about whether it's good. And it's about redefining words and redefining schemas. Some would say putting yourself into a pretzel to try and remain active and faithful. Do you have a just a general reaction to or opinion about modern neo apologetics?

Roger Hendrix [00:31:50] Neo apologetics. So that means new apologetics, kind of. These guys are pastoral apologetics. Makes it softer, nicer.

John Dehlin [00:32:00] No, no more ad hominem, like Daniel Peterson, Lewis Midgley, attacking people. No more even trying to defend the church on scientific claims. Instead of saying Zarahemla somewhere, they're like, myth is a really nice thing. And the Book of Mormon can be appreciated for its mythical value, whether or not it's true. That sort of thing.

Roger Hendrix [00:32:24] Sounds like me.

John Dehlin [00:32:25] Well, are you a neo Apologist?

Roger Hendrix [00:32:30] Well, I'll ask you, am I a NEO apologist?

John Dehlin [00:32:33] I don't think so.

Roger Hendrix [00:32:36] What am I then? What category am I in here, in your opinion, you really want? Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:42] I mean, what you're willing to do is something Patrick Mason or, you know, Spencer Fluman or Terrellyn, Fiona Givens or Richard Bushman just aren't willing to do, which is to. Well, first of all, they no longer are willing to come on Mormon stories. So all those people that came on Mormon stories that early in those years were open to that public dialogue, who I feel like I helped promote in many instances back when I was willing to sort of stand up in support of the church's authority and its truth claims in some sense or fashion. They were eager to. But as soon as the excommunication happened and as soon as I was willing to just say, you know what? I think the church is hurting people, and I think that the Book of Mormon is what it claims to be and the Book of Abraham is what it claims to be, they wouldn't play ball. They didn't want to come on anymore. And they only want to engage in these secret private forums where they can tell members secretly, okay, you don't have to believe the Book of Mormon is true or historical. And, okay, the brethren do make a lot of mistakes. They're sometimes the last to know. They're willing to say that secretly, where there's no recording. So they can kind of keep members in who are doubting, but they would never go on the public record and say those types of things. That's not you. You're here. You're willing to own up to your beliefs publicly instead of only doing that secretly and privately. So that's what sets you apart from them.

The Future of the Church: Growth, Power, and Prospects

Roger Hendrix [00:34:15] Okay, so I'm not a neo apologist.

John Dehlin [00:34:19] So do you have an opinion about that approach? Is it good? Is it bad? Is it. Are you indifferent to it?

Roger Hendrix [00:34:26] Richard Bushman, he's the guy who blew the top off this whole thing. Hit with rough, stone rolling. That got the stone rolling. And so he's now going and saying these things secretly. No, I'm not big into that. I'm not big into secrets.

Roger Hendrix [00:34:54] And

Roger Hendrix [00:34:57] the Lord weeps. Is that given the God who weeps? Yeah, the God who weeps. Depends on what God you're talking about. You know, the Old Testament God, the New Testament God, Joseph Smith's God. I don't know what God he's talking about. Maybe he weeps and wishes things were otherwise. So, you know, they have their opinions. They want A softer, I think, gospel. And there evidently there are people who want to hear that and people who are willing to sponsor that. So I don't have anything against it. It's just not me.

John Dehlin [00:35:48] There's some camp that are like, oh, people that are liberal and progressive and non literal in a church. It's a very positive influence because they're making the church more progressive. They're making the church more open minded, more liberal, as you stated described yourself to be. Then there are others like Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens that say liberal or progressive religionists are some of the most damaging people because they're propping up an institution that otherwise is harming too many people. And in some sense they're gaslighting people to redefine words and context to keep them in something that they might be healthier and safer to just get out of.

Roger Hendrix [00:36:34] Well, I wouldn't say that. Christopher Hitchens, God rest his soul, whatever. Gaslight, I thought he's just pretty. I think he's.

John Dehlin [00:36:46] He would call Givens a bushman.

Roger Hendrix [00:36:48] Okay. Gaslighting. Yeah, yeah. Would I think that these guys are gaslighting? No, I think gaslighting is. Gaslighting is something different. To me, it's where you drive people crazy. You didn't really hear what they said. And let me interpret that for you. We do. We do. That happens in the church. And so if Givens or Mason or Bushman do that, I wouldn't, I don't dig that.

John Dehlin [00:37:30] Okay. There's a lot of people that want to reduce the church leadership to just money and power and nepotism and influence. So that's the current leadership. What's your sense of how someone becomes a general authority or even an apostle? What would you say the key biographical traits or characteristics in their personality or incidences of luck or fortune that make an apostle these days?

Roger Hendrix [00:38:05] Well, let's talk about 70s. First of all, I don't think there's nepotism in 70s, especially with area 70s, because they're trying to get people from all over the world, a diverse selection of people who are willing to carry out the programs of the church. And so I would put that to aside with respect to the first and second quorum of the 70. They don't even mention second quorum of the 70 anymore. They just say the 70. These guys have a set time that they serve and then they no longer serve. And some of these guys get chosen from Salt Lake City because they may be known for their church service when it comes to the apostleship. Wow. That's a heavy question. I have some opinions kind of that are on the side to that. And they are these. I don't think that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints will ever allow its headquarters to be in any other place but Salt Lake City. And so you want to make sure that you have people who come into that quorum who understand that, that the headquarters of the church is here, it's going to stay here, and that this is the center of the kingdom of God on earth. Now, that's a private view. But there's been too much sacrifice on the part of the original members of the church to have that thing, the headquarters of the church located in Central America or South America or New York City or California for that matter. So I believe that the headquarters of the church will always be in Salt Lake City. And I think they have to select people who understand how important that is. I think the people who get selected for that these days have to be more diverse. And the last two apostles have been averse, although. Have been very diverse, although. Gerrit Gong has really been raised in Utah, but he is Asian. His background is Asian. And then the other is Brazilian. And I think you'll have a greater representation, more diversity. You have Uchtdorf, who is German. So they're getting that diversity. But these folks, they understand through their diligence, they've been through the fire. They understand what the mission of the church is. They're willing to defend it with their life. And they know where the headquarters of the church is. Now that brings me to my own personal mission. And as a management consultant for the last 33 years, I've been traveling the world. I am a globalist. But the period of globalism, it's not coming to an end, but it's really being redefined. And one of the things I see is that national and federal governments all over the world are being challenged in countries where there is heavy democracy. And our country is no different than that. We have a revolution going on with our new president, and he is bound and determined. And there are a lot of people bound and determined to dismantle the federal government, not to do away with it, but not give it as much power as it has had. And people don't want global organizations, you know, telling them what to do in their personal lives. So I ask myself, then where is the power going to shift? And I've made. I've drawn the conclusion it's being drawn into metropolitan areas and into cities. And one of the places I have concluded that will be a power center is the Wasatch Front, with Salt Lake City, Ogden and Provo being that metropolitan area of power, great power. And that will be where a lot of money will be created, a lot of problems will be solved. And that is the kind of the Hegelian answer to this globalism that I've been a part of as a management consultant. So I am big in building up Salt Lake City. I want it to be a great center of power and influence in the world. And I'm putting my money where my mouth is, and I'm becoming involved in organizations that have influence in creating a great city. That being said, one of the things I really like is that Salt Lake City is the headquarters of a world religion. And when I talk with people or I hear guys from around the world come in here to give lectures, they always mention the fact that Salt Lake City is the headquarters of a world religion. And so I want to keep it that way. I like the idea of the headquarters of the church, which is now a bona fide world religion, being right here in Salt Lake City. And I want to build up that Wasatch front. And I believe that this is one of the next great centers of power and influence, decentralized from globalism and federalism down to a local level where a lot of needs will be met, a lot of riches will be created. And so that's how I feel about the church in Salt Lake City. And I want the leadership to continue to be loyal to that vision.

John Dehlin [00:45:06] So are you saying that maybe they're going to. Maybe you see them picking people that will be most supportive of that. That goal kind of prosperity, Utah prosperity.

Roger Hendrix [00:45:18] That the headquarters, the headquarters of the Church of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints of Salt Lake City. Now, is that an absolute necessity on someone becoming apostle? I don't know. I hope it is. I know these. You know, to be an apostle, you have to have gone through a lot of fire. You have been schooled in how the senior brethren want the church to operate, and you have come through all of that. And so these are not average individuals. And my hope is what I've just stated. I like where I live. I want to build it up. And I like the idea that a world religion is headquartered here. I like the idea that this is a little Vatican.

John Dehlin [00:46:19] We made reference last week to an LDS philanthropies video that basically has this father and a family, a Mormon father in a family, talking about his philosophies on life, talking about his wife and kids, talking about this money that he's made talking about friends that he has who gave their money to their children and it caused them to do bad things and to lose their way. And that the purpose of life isn't to make money, but it's to serve. And that nothing's more important to him than having his family end up with him in the celestial kingdom. And then it segues into him saying, you know, what he's done and what he thinks other people should consider is to set up this private nonprofit with his family and with his sons, and then to cut a deal with the Deseret Trust Company where, you know, you enter in a contract to have the Deseret Company manager your estate for you. And he even goes on to say, it's really important to do this because if your kids leave the church, you won't want to leave your money to them, but if they do remain faithful, then you may want to leave some of your money to them. And, you know, and he basically says the only thing that matters to him is that his kids return to the social kingdom with him. And he said, and he actually said, no matter what the church, no matter what his children accomplished, it didn't matter if they were successful in the world, if they were successful in business, if they were good people or whatever. If they weren't, temple recommend holding worthy members, he would consider them as. As being not a failure, but as a problem. And all of that was this huge kind of 15 minute or whatever PR piece I think that they've been using to get people to invest in the organization that you were a Trustee of for 18 years and you already went on the record last time to say that if such a video existed, saying these sorts of things, you would be opposed to that approach. Now that you've. We had a listener reach out and send us the link. Thank you, listener. We'll include that in the show notes so those who want to watch it can. For my wife and I, it was a very unsettling video. Do you have any additional things you wanted to add now that you've actually seen that video?

Roger Hendrix [00:49:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:11] And anyway, does it make you regret your service or feel bad about how some people might have been manipulated or sold into using those services?

Roger Hendrix [00:49:23] Yeah, I have several observations from that video. First of all, I went back to the beginning to see if LDS philanthropies had produced it. They did. They had. And it was produced in 2012. So it's not old, but it's kind of old now. And. Okay, that's my first observation. So thank you for looking that up. And you were basically right that the LDS Philanthropies had put out a video with a guy saying, I don't want. If my kids aren't active in the church, I don't want them to get any money. Okay. Now, when you are working with families and you're working with people who have to make decisions about their assets, they're free to make any decision they want. And they do make decisions, all kinds of interesting requests. And I don't think that is. You know, I can see people making that request. I think last time I said, when people don't want their children, period, to get any of the money and the church get all the money, that the trust officer will try to counsel them. You know, you don't want harsh feelings to be created at your demise. And so Deseret Trust Company is extremely sensitive about those issues. They always have been, at least since I've been on, since my time on the board. But that doesn't mean that people have a right with their own money to make their own decisions. That LDS Philanthropies created such a video bothers me a little bit. Bothers me. And. And I. And all I can say is it bothers me. I. I don't feel. I didn't feel comfortable when I was watching it, but that person. So you have to make a distinction between the. The people who produced it and then the people who spoke on it. And so the people who spoke on. Perfect right to say it. LDS philanthropies, you know, I didn't like it. Now, on the other hand, and there's always another hand, the rich dialectic, right? The richest bankers in Europe were at one time were the Rothschilds. Have you ever heard of that name?

John Dehlin [00:52:28] I have.

Roger Hendrix [00:52:28] Okay. And two of the sons of the senior Rothschild was very concerned because they couldn't get along, and he made them make a promise. Now, I could be creating a myth or a story here, and I'll stand corrected if this is not correct. But. But his last wish was that they remained active in their faith and that they got along. And so here you have the richest banker in Europe, and the thing he's most concerned about is that these two guys stay in the faith. And so that doesn't surprise me. And it doesn't surprise me that there are people in the church who want their kids to stay in the faith.

John Dehlin [00:53:26] And

Roger Hendrix [00:53:29] if they don't, they won't get part of the inheritance. And that's not unique to Mormonism. The Rothschilds did it And I imagine that happens all over the world. That being said, I still wasn't comfortable with the video. And number two, Deseret Trust Company is sensitive about those issues and, you know, and wouldn't encourage people to make up their remainderment based upon that criteria. They want to know how you want the money left, and they want to work with you to make sure it works that way.

John Dehlin [00:54:19] Thank you. Thank you for that. A couple issues that are kind of hitting the church right now. Just want to get your take on it. What's your take on the church jettisoning the Boy Scouts of America program?

Roger Hendrix [00:54:35] Well, you could kind of see that coming, couldn't you?

John Dehlin [00:54:38] They say it's because Boy Scouts is an America thing, it's not an international thing. And they need a program that is global, that isn't just a U.S. program. That's the justification they used for parting with the Boy Scouts. Do you buy that?

Roger Hendrix [00:54:54] Not all together. I think that they had to swallow hard when the Boy Scouts of America took a strong position on gays being Scout leaders. And now they're dropping boy from Scouts. And so it's Scouts of America. And how international Boy Scouts of America will handle that, I don't know. And I don't believe that the Scouting program In the past 10, 15 years has been a success. Was they might have wanted it to be. And so I could see them saying, we, you know, we need something that will better meet the needs of the kids we have coming in. And the Scouting didn't. Didn't do it. And in the wards in America didn't always do it. I've never been a big fan of Boy Scouts of America, although I was happy that my two sons became eagles. Why? You know, because that was what was expected of me and my children at that particular time. I went as far as being a tenderfoot. And then you can't get any lower than that as a tenderfoot. All you have to do is show up. Right. And so I like Cub Scouts, but I didn't like Boy Scouts. And. And I imagine that's kind of how it is around the different units in the church. Am I kind of glad that it's gone? Kind of. Kind of.

John Dehlin [00:56:48] What are your thoughts on the Protect LDS Children movement? Sam Young and his efforts to basically stop all sexually explicit interviews, adults and children, you know, between bishops, stake presidents, mission presidents, that there's no one on one interviews and there's no sexual, explicit interviews with youth.

Roger Hendrix [00:57:13] Yeah, I like that idea. And I think. I think a parent should be clear with the Priesthood leader, I don't want my kid interviewed about sexual matters. And I think you have to honor that because you have to honor that even legally. Isn't the church moving in that direction?

John Dehlin [00:57:42] Sorta little bit, yeah. And so at least they're letting, they're making it official that parents can request that. But it takes a special parent who has enough power and kind of self authority to tell a priesthood leader, I don't want you being alone with my kid. Some would say that the most vulnerable to abuse would be those who don't have strong parents in the home and they're the ones that are often groomed by. If you saw a spotlight in the Catholic Church, the pedophile priests would target the altar boys that were from broken homes, that were low SES socioeconomic status because they would be the ones where they could coerce and abuse and say, okay, I did this to you but no one's going to believe you if you tell anyone, so don't you dare speak about this. And so a lot of people are concerned that just saying that a parent has that option doesn't really help the most vulnerable children in the most vulnerable situations.

Roger Hendrix [00:58:47] Right now that's a little bit above my pay grade. I haven't thought through that completely. What I do believe is that I don't think it's a good idea to ask sexually explicit questions of young people. And that, and that seems like common sense to me. Now you say, well only a strong minded parent would bring that to the attention of the priesthood leader. But that's kind of like everything else. And until you hear it, until you see it, you don't hear it and you don't see it. And then now that the issue is out in the open, I'm sure that a lot of I, I, I, I'm, I'm sure the church and I'm sure the parents will see the wisdom in that. I, I don't, I don't think children even know about that word. I don't even think they're sexually active. Many of them by they're not, they don't come of age sexually to even know about those things and some even late later in life and later in their teen years. So you know as well meaning as you think you are, you have to be careful about talking about sexual matters to young people. I just don't think you should.

Abuse, Accountability, and Leadership Concerns

John Dehlin [01:00:28] Any thoughts on the Joseph Bishop McKenna Denson case where the Provo Mission president abused someone at the mtc? You would have gone through the MTC in training back in the day. And then recently we found out yesterday that the Church is trying to get that case dismissed. Instead of settling in some way with McKenna Denison, the victim, the Church is trying to get the case dismissed. They haven't taken any action on Joseph Bishop. He remains, as I understand it, in the Senate presidency of his ward. And the Church is trying to just get the case dismissed, saying that it's basically past the statute of limitation.

Roger Hendrix [01:01:16] What do I feel about that? Yeah, I know we're coming to the end of this interview because we talked about Joseph Fish yesterday. So we're kind of coming full circle here. First of all, I never would have thought in a thousand years that there was a little room downstairs in the MTC where a mission of the President, the MTC would take young girls and try to have sex with them. Beyond me. And when I heard it and I actually listened to the tape and

John Dehlin [01:02:03] it

Roger Hendrix [01:02:03] was disturbing, we went through why this guy wasn't caught beforehand and what could have been the reasons. And I believe that the system is now enlivened and we're going to make, you know, is anything foolproof? No. But you don't want that ever happening again. That's when the membership loses trust in the leadership. And if that were ever to happen, that's where the real dilemma is. If those really staunch, active Latter Day Saints lose, would ever lose trust in their leadership. That's the most dangerous thing. And so you don't, you're, you're going to go to great lengths to make sure that doesn't happen again. Not that it won't, but you don't want that to happen again. Now, with respect to the Church wanting the case to be dismissed, I thought that private lawyers were hired to handle that case. I guess they were hired by the Church, weren't they, to represent Joseph Bishop. And it's those lawyers who have moved to dismiss the case. And they have the responsibility to represent their client and defend them in. A lawyer has a responsibility to defend their client no matter what the conditions of that client may be. And so that wouldn't surprise me that they would ask for a statute of limitations issue to be dismissed. I don't know anything about Mr. Bishop and his church calling there in Arizona. I don't know anything beyond that. But I don't like what I've heard this far.

John Dehlin [01:04:20] Many of us who are watching the Catholic Church were surprised when we learned that a Pope resigned or the Pope stepped down prior to Pope Francis. Pope Benedict steps down. There's a line in Hamilton where King George says, are you going to keep replacing each leader? You know, I didn't know someone voluntarily choosing to step down like George Washington. I didn't know that was something you could do. I think we can relate to that in the church. Do you have any thoughts on the church's gerontocracy? Do you think that's something that they might be prudent to change at some point where it's sort of lifetime tenure for apostles and above? Do you think that's hurting the church to have that gerontocracy?

Roger Hendrix [01:05:08] I've never had a big problem with that, especially every decade that every decade I put on this body. These apostles seem younger, but I've never had a big problem with that, even when I was younger. And the leadership of the church, they have worked it. So when the president is incapacitated, it's the first presidency and the quorum of the 12 that run the church. Okay, I'm for that. I think that's a good move. And we do know that medicine is allowing us to live longer and have a good quality of life and keep our wits about us. Now, if you become senile, you have Alzheimer's, of course, you should be retired. That's. But normally I don't think gerontocracy is a big problem. In some instances, it may be good. That takes me to another issue of the Church. I believe the church and its leadership, whether it be Catholic, Mormon, Jewish or otherwise, they are also the caretakers of the values of the past. They're the caretakers of the culture to make sure that the culture stays intact, that we don't change too much, that there's not too much chaos introduced into the system. And so with guys that grow old in their position, they're definitely representing the culture of how things have been. And so if you can get 15 men to agree on a policy, you know, that basically all of your cultural issues, as well as doctrinal issues have been covered. And so with that, you know, President Nelson is an old man, but he relates to the youth. You saw him in General Conference. The membership responded to him. He was coherent. His closest apostle friend is his first counselor and watches out for him. In principle, I have no problem with that. For. For cultural reasons as well as any other reasons.

John Dehlin [01:08:15] Okay, do you. I think you're right. I think it's about health. I think. I mean, there. There is a. There is a generational effect that if you're raised, you know, in. In, you know, in baby boomer era, if you're raised in the 50s, if you're morality and sensibilities or sort of J. Edgar Hoover era morals and sensibilities, you're going to tend to govern the church that way. And we all know that the junior apostles don't really have much power or authority, that it's really the senior apostles that have most of the power and sway. And so that just guarantees that the people with the real power in your leadership are always going to be kind of 50 years, 30 to 50 years behind the times. And that's kind of what we see in any of the great civil rights questions of our time. Whether it's the civil rights movement, whether it's era, whether it's the LGBT stuff, we're kind of 20 to 30 years behind. So I think some would argue that having some sort of tenure and retirement policy and mixing up with younger generations would just have the church be a little bit more in touch with all these different demographics. Because I don't think it's any secret that millennials and younger are abandoning not only our church, but religion kind of in droves. And so I think it's a fair question to ask, would the church be able to retain more of its youth if it had more leadership that that could represent and market to that audience more effectively?

Roger Hendrix [01:10:00] And what do you think?

John Dehlin [01:10:01] Yeah, I think on the one hand it could help. On the other hand it could hurt. I guess at the end of the day, I think it's smart what they're doing, because I think the church loses every liberal step it takes, every progressive step it takes. It alienates the conservatives, and it doesn't win the liberals. The liberals just go, see, you're making this up as you go along. Anyway, so they really benefit very little from making progressive changes at any accelerated pace. So I think conservatism and even retrenchment in a fundamentalist religion is probably the most prudent path. If you're going for butts and seats, devout, committed members and tithe payers, you stay super conservative. So I think it's probably smart for them to keep doing it.

Roger Hendrix [01:10:54] Yeah. Plus, even in America today, this thing is much bigger than the Mormon Church. This, every religion is sweating bullets over this thing because we're at another one of those historical junctures in civilization. And in my opinion, almost all of it's been brought on by the information revolution and computers and devices. And so this thing is bigger than age or who is called and not called to the apostleship. This is caused by how human beings, how fast they get information and how fast they can act on information. And they've been clear so far. The trend is the young people coming up don't like organized religion to the degree that they did so. But there are a lot of Mormons, there are a lot of Catholics who still believe in that stuff. So you've got to bring everyone forward, the old ones, the young ones. It's almost an impossible task.

John Dehlin [01:12:25] It is. Okay, we're rounding out. We're coming to the end. I kind of want to ask you about whether you're bullish or bearish on the LDS Church. We're seeing, with the rise of the nones in the United States, N o n e s people who no longer affiliate with the religious tradition. We're seeing that sink a lot of churches slowly, some quickly. And then we're seeing the secularization in Europe kind of really sweep religions off the continent, unless it's sort of immigrant Muslims that are kind of fundamentalist Muslims. So religion's on the ropes, and the church is, by some account, no exception to that. So you mentioned in our first day together, you know, that the social gospel, you're seeing it kind of dying or dead. You mentioned that it used to be a culture more of being friendly and fun, and now it's become more serious and about obedience. Do you, you know, are you bullish or bearish on the future of the

Roger Hendrix [01:13:27] church in Africa and in developing countries? I think the church plays a role. In Europe, the church is losing. Here in America, you still have a very active core, not what it used to be. And that's why they're buckling down and concentrating on that core that really remains loyal to the church. But I believe in the future, all religions have got to work very hard to know who they are, realizing that they're not going to get any help from the larger society and in bringing people to what they have to offer. Which brings me to this idea. It used to be secularism versus religion, and I believe that probably secularism is the big tent and religion is one of the many spokes under secularism. And. And I feel that that's where we're going. That's where we've gone. That's where we'll continue to go. And with the advent of the digital revolution, we'll continue to go in that direction.

John Dehlin [01:15:05] Managerial. Managerially. Is it a problem for the church to be growing in Africa, Philippines, Latin America, and to be shrinking in Western Europe and North America?

Roger Hendrix [01:15:15] Well, they have to work out their finances on that. But, you know, I've done a lot of Consulting in. I've done a sizable amount of consulting in Saudi Arabia. And they're building cities along the Red Sea across from Eastern African nations. And you'd be surprised at how much money is being poured into Africa. Saudi Arabia knows that their new market economically is Africa. China knows that. America knows that Africa is going to gradually grow richer. And the church is in there laying its foundation. And so, you know, whether they'll ever make as much money as the average family in America remains to be seen. But it will continue to grow. And many religions are growing there. Africans are liking what they see in the Western religions that are offered up to them. And, you know, when you go to Africa, you think it's bamboo huts and all of that, but there are cities like Nigeria. That's a fascinating place. When you go into South Africa, that is a blast. You know, I thought America was the most diverse place on the face of the earth until you get into South Africa and everybody and their brothers there and staking out a claim. So, yeah, I think it'll do okay. The Philippines. I'm not familiar with the Philippines. What other place? Latin America. I know about Latin America. I know about Argentina. I know about Chile, and I know Chile is well managed and members are richer. Now. No one had a car when I was even the mission president down there. Now a lot of members have cars. And so affluency is hitting Chile.

John Dehlin [01:17:34] It.

Roger Hendrix [01:17:35] You know, some would argue that Argentines have it pretty well and Brazil's doing well. Brazil is doing well, kind of. And. Oh, you mean with regard to the church?

John Dehlin [01:17:51] No, just economically, but yeah, Activity rates in Latin America are pretty abysmal as they are in the Philippines.

Roger Hendrix [01:17:59] And. And there, you can say there are a lot of inactivity in Chile. Yes, there's a lot of activity in Chile. Yes. And I said this the last time. Pathways offering kids BYU diplomas, helping them have English as a second language. Now that's what I'm into. That's what I like, and that's my hope that the Latins will respond to that and they'll get better jobs. And they're already getting better jobs. So, you know, we'll shrink in Europe. We won't be as strong as we once were in America. We'll be stronger in Africa. We'll continue to grow in Latin America. But it's hard work. You know, I think religion building is the hardest work of them all right now. And you have to have a good message, you have to have a good service, you have to really meet needs.

John Dehlin [01:19:09] I think you and Hans Mattson have kind of, you know, set the standard for the. The most connected or kind of highest level interviewees Mormon Stories has ever had. Do you think there will be other defections or disaffections from the church at a high level? A lot of people wonder if someday an apostle could ever publicly disaffect. Do you see that as being a possibility or even a higher level first quorum of the 70 member, even a first quorum of the Presidency sort of level? Do you see that ever happening? And being willing to openly publicly talk about their disaffection?

Happiness, Final Reflections, and Closing Wisdom

Roger Hendrix [01:19:51] Well, let's take that one step at a time. Am I considered a defector

John Dehlin [01:20:00] from the loyalty. Yeah, from kind of the code of don't talk about the problems, be obedient, fall in line in that sense. Yeah.

Roger Hendrix [01:20:11] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:20:14] I am guessing.

Roger Hendrix [01:20:15] Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, then. And according to Grant Palmer, the, the first COR. That guy from the first COR, 70 doesn't believe anymore, but he won't.

John Dehlin [01:20:30] He hasn't been willing to use his name or to be identified publicly.

Roger Hendrix [01:20:35] Okay, all right, all right. So you. Well, who's that guy? Albert Carrington, from the. The apostle, you know, who was shacking up with different women.

John Dehlin [01:20:50] That apostle Lyman?

Roger Hendrix [01:20:53] No, that was. I'm getting. Going to get to him.

John Dehlin [01:20:55] Oh, okay.

Roger Hendrix [01:20:56] Was it Albert Carrington? Carrington.

John Dehlin [01:20:58] Okay.

Roger Hendrix [01:20:59] You know, he was excommunicated. I don't know if he ever came back. And then Lyman, in our lifetime or in my lifetime, I guess was 1952, that that happened to him.

John Dehlin [01:21:13] So that was an apostle who had a second wife under the wraps, who he believed was a polygamous wife.

Roger Hendrix [01:21:19] And so do I believe that an apostle will have a challenge? Well, if the past is any indicator of the future, yes. You know, probably. Will. They become public? Sure, why not? You know, statistically it could happen. They have that pretty wrapped up right now, So. And you have a lot of 70s, you know, and you already have 70s who sometimes don't go to church. And so, yes, you can't have that many people without there being people who get disappointed and have challenges. I would think so. Do I believe that that will, that that will be the cause of people leaving the church? I don't think. I don't. I don't think so. Did people leave the church when George Lee, you know, left the church and was doing everything he was doing? We can't even remember him right now. And so I think people. I think there are people who just really like how it's going and they don't have any challenges. I think there are people like myself who have an issue with social issues. You know, we're. We're all over the place and, you know, religion is not meant to be so spooky, you know, so terrifying. It's put together with humans and just people. Be as honest as you can be as good as you can, do your thing and go forward with courage.

John Dehlin [01:23:35] I like it. Okay, last. Maybe second to last question. There are a lot of people out there that are scared to leave, that feel like you can't, number one, be healthy and happy outside of religion, outside of Mormonism, and that it'll have a negative effect on your children and your posterity to leave Mormonism or to leave the church. Number one, do you kind of miss it at all? And number two, what can you say to people who want to take a sabbatical and. Or leave but are scared because they're worried that they won't be as happy or as healthy or that their posterity won't be as happy or as healthy?

Roger Hendrix [01:24:21] Are you happy?

John Dehlin [01:24:24] I feel like my family is happier and healthier than we've ever been. Everyone, individually and collectively, honestly, if you

Roger Hendrix [01:24:33] ask, and I did, I'm happy. But I've always basically been pretty happy. And so I'm happy in my situation right now, and I don't see that changing. And my children are happy, you know, but some of my children are very, very active in the church, and some are not. And so. But they have. No matter what their level of activity in the church is, they still have human problems. They're worried about their children. Why can't this child read as fast? And how come this child is not growing? And all of this stuff. And that happens with every family. And so my counsel to myself and to my children who are raising their family is all these things pass. They work out. So make sure, whatever your situation, enjoy the moment. And I learned that also in the home I live on, I finally built a home where I have a view. And then you find you have a view of the whole valley. And then you find yourself, you don't even look out your window anymore. And so I kind of have this thing down that you really. To enjoy life, you have to concentrate on a detail. There's got to be something that catches your eye that you say, I love that right now, when you try and take it all in, you kind of get bored and you don't look at it anymore. And so in my life, I'm concentrating on picking up on details, enjoying it, realizing that I'll never have a perfect life, and but the life I have right now, enjoy the details of it, and that's what I'm into right now.

John Dehlin [01:27:10] All right, well, Roger, that brings us to the last question we ask most, if not all, of our interviewees, which is if you wanted to share some final wisdom or final testimony or what your truth is now, if you have a secular testimony or a nuanced Mormon testimony, or if you wanted to give any parting advice. What you just said was very wise and, and important, but this is your chance to, you know, we're over 10 hours. We're 10 and a half hours. You haven't said enough. So what else? What else is there to say? What would you want to share for a closing thought or testimony?

Roger Hendrix [01:27:50] Well, I could be like Tom Phillips now, move to Malta. Nobody knows how to get to me.

John Dehlin [01:27:58] But we're trying to get Tom back on Mormon stories. So, Tom, if you're listening, answer my emails. Come back on Mormon stories. We want to know how you're doing. Sorry.

Roger Hendrix [01:28:08] Okay, first of all, do I believe in profound spiritual experiences? Yes. Have I dissected those? Yes. With my secular mind. And have I come back at the suggestion of my son to the mystery of it all? And those of us who have had profound personal spiritual experiences, those things have changed our life. I still believe in those. I'm very sensitive about those, and I believe there is that. Mystery number two. I don't think there will ever come a time when God will leave the earth. I think people will always have need of God, and hence they'll be very creative about how they create that God for me. I always called my most profound spiritual experiences the voice that came to me, the voice. And I still believe in that voice that came to me and guided me. I enjoyed my church service. I enjoy being involved in the community right now. I believe in the awe of life. There are just some very beautiful things that take place. I'm in awe of some of the scientific breakthroughs. I'm in awe of my own life where I have colon cancer in my family and they caught some polyps in me, and I've had seven or eight colonoscopies. And my last test I cleared free of polyps. And, and so I'm very grateful for science. I'm respectful of it. And that, to me, is a part of the spiritual experience. I, I, I'm glad the headquarters of the church is here in Salt Lake City. I'm glad I'm a part of it. And I really love my children. I really love my wife. Shout out to my wife. My wife has always been so cool at philanthropic activities. For example, she probably, she probably with some other women, got the women's wing of the Los Angeles Rescue Mission built for the homeless. So the moms and the little kids had their own wing where they were protected, showered, clothed, fed, and the little kiddies were able to go to school. And my wife was one of the main fundraisers for that. And then she goes down to chilly and little mentally retarded children, handicapped children, they'll have milk the rest of their life. They'll have a bed, they'll have a washing machine where their sheets can be washed. My wife's always been involved in that. She still is involved in that. And so I love that. I love that and I love her. I love my children. Each one of my children, some love me more than others and that's okay. They've got to make their own way. So I'm a pretty happy guy. And John, I think you are making a very important contribution and I really thank you for having me on. And that's all I have to say. I'm a pretty happy guy.

John Dehlin [01:32:37] 10 and a half hours. You broke the record. Roger Hendricks. Thank you. And you broke the record. Those of you who made it ten and a half hours, you broke the record. You listened to the longest Mormon Stories episode. If you made it all the way through all ten and a half hours, I would love to have a dinner with you or ice cream if we can make it happen. I just, I'm so thankful for our listeners. I just want to thank the Mormon, the Open Stories foundation staff who make all this possible. Tim, Corey and Cody Layton, specifically who are on the podcast team. I couldn't do this without them. So huge shout out to Tim and Cody. Grateful to all our staff. Also grateful to the Open Stories foundation board which keeps the train on the tracks in so many ways. We could not do this without our donors. So if you are a donor, thank you. This would all shut down today and disappear without our donors. If you're not a donor, we would just want to ask you to consider, please making a financial contribution, a monthly contribution to Mormon Stories. You can go to mormonstories.org click on the donate button at the top right of the screen. You know we've got a set to where you can do $10 a month, $20 a month, $50 a month, $100 a month, whatever. One time donations. It's all tax deductible in the United States. We're transparent in our finances. And all the money goes literally towards the staff and the mission of the osf, which is to provide community resources and support for people experiencing or impacted by a Mormon religious transition. We're here to save families, to save lives, to improve people's mental health, their happiness, their well being, and please support us financially if you believe in this mission. And we'll just keep plugging and we'll do more of this great content. We've got great stuff ahead. Believe it or not, it's been a great year and we've got even better stuff. Well, I don't know if it's better than Roger, but we've got worthy stuff ahead, so we hope you'll stay tuned. Please support us on Facebook like us on Mormon Stories podcast page. Give us a positive review. It makes a difference. Five star reviews make a difference. Go to itunes and give us a positive review there that makes a difference. Like us. And follow us on Instagram and on Twitter if you can. And please share these episodes. Please put these on your Facebook wall and your Instagram feed on Reddit. Please share this with friends and family if you're in the position to do so. When you share these episodes with others, it spreads the word. And really grassroots word of mouth is where we get most. We don't do a lot of marketing. We hope to do a billboard campaign soon along the Wasatch front. We're working on that as we speak and we're accepting donations to support that endeavor. But generally we don't market, we don't advertise and so we rely on your word of mouth to let people know. So please share. Thanks for joining us. Love you guys and gals and everyone involved. Thank you Roger. And please tune in again soon, soon for another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm tired. I'm ready to be done. Go Utes, go Utes and Aggies and Cougars.

Roger Hendrix [01:36:03] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:36:03] All right, take care. Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber at Mormon Stories. Love who you LOVE is a single off the upcoming album Red Wing by singer songwriter Sarah Sample. To hear the entire album, find Sarah Sample on itunes, Spotify or at sarahsample.com.

Roger Hendrix [01:37:03] You just love who you love you just know who who you love love, love, love love you just love who you love you just love who you love love, love, love who you who you love you doesn't love who you love you just love.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.