Welcome and Introductions

Part 1 of 3 · Ep. 1740

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is February 6, 2023, and we have been getting lots of feedback that people love a lot of the interviews that we do, but they really want to make sure we never forget to do interviews with just normal Mormon folk, not necessarily authors, not necessarily celebrities, but just good old salt of the earth Mormons. And. And that is what we have in store today with an international twist and with a lot of really cool elements of a story that many of you probably haven't heard before. On Mormon Stories Today, we are interviewing someone I consider to be a dear friend. Her name is Martine Smith. Hey, Martine.

Martine Smith [00:00:44] Hi, John.

John Dehlin [00:00:45] Welcome to Mormon Stories.

Martine Smith [00:00:46] Thanks for having us.

John Dehlin [00:00:48] Martine is joined today by her husband, Bishop Stuart Smith. Hey, Stuart.

Stuart Smith [00:00:54] Morning, John.

John Dehlin [00:00:56] And when I say bishop, it's in the context of within Mormonism. Once a bishop, always a bishop. It's great to have you here, Stuart.

Stuart Smith [00:01:03] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:01:04] And of course, I'm joined by my partner in what I say, truth and goodness, Margi. Hey, Margi, thanks for joining us. I want to give just kind of, I like to give kind of the overview of why I think the story is going to be useful and valuable. There's so many cool elements. Martine was a convert to the church in Belgium in her teen years. We're going to talk about her conversion to Mormonism in Belgium. What brought her to the United States as a Mormon teenager, slash young adult. We're going to talk about her marriage to Stuart. And we're going to be talking about a lot of compelling and somewhat intense topics. Primarily, we're going to be talking about medical issues with children and even death of children as part of this episode. It's a very important part of their story. We're going to be talking about their faith journeys. There's even a point in the story where Steward becomes a bishop, I would say as a nuanced Mormon. But also, while Martine was really struggling, there's going to be a significant amount of what it's like to go through a faith journey in the 80s and 90s, pre Internet. That's going to be a really interesting element to this story. And, and then part of what's really interesting about Martine is that she was really engaged in Mormon discourse during the rise of the Internet and the rise of Internet Mormonism, even pre blog and podcast days. And that's how she and I first kind of got to know about each other. And so there's so much fun to Unpack there. But also what's interesting is they've stayed as kind of followers of Mormon discourse all the way through to 2023. Martine and I don't know, Stuart, you can tell us too. Martina is still an avid listener to Mormonism Live. She appeared recently on Mormonism Live with Bill Real and Radio Free Mormon and I think Lila Tuller. So she'll be a familiar voice or face to some of those who follow Mormonism Live. But it's going to be a three part, multi hour, epic interview with an international flair with two people that I really love and respect. So, Margi, anything you want to say before we dive in?

Margi Dehlin [00:03:10] I'm just very excited today. I'm here. Buckle up.

Martine and Stuart's Intentions for the Interview

John Dehlin [00:03:13] All right. And also, I. I really like to give people a chance to talk about their intentions for why they're coming on and maybe why they're not coming on in terms of, like, what they're not trying to do or accomplish. And I know that there might be a mixed faith element to your family story. So both Martina and Stuart, before we get into your stories, do either of you want to start with an intention on why you are doing this interview?

Martine Smith [00:03:39] Sure. I'm doing this interview because we're like ordinary Mormons. And I have known. John and I have known each other for 15 years now. The one thing that I am not doing the interview with is to bash the church. Certainly I have had issues with the church, with its doctrines, its policies at times, but I also very much respect my family and friends who have testimonies of the church who strongly believe in its teachings and in its way of life. They are very sincere people. I know their stories. My story is ending differently. We're all born different. I mean, that's a cliche, but we're born different. We go through different life experiences. Stuart and I lost two children, but that is not why I eventually distanced myself from the church. Those experiences were 40 years in the past, and I stuck it out for decades.

John Dehlin [00:04:54] Yeah. Okay. Thanks, Martine. Stuart, anything you want to add?

Stuart Smith [00:04:59] Well, I don't think so, John. I'm here mainly to support Martine, but I also have a faith journey. And right now I would probably consider myself a secular Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:05:15] Okay.

Stuart Smith [00:05:17] It's in my heritage. I have a family history that goes back several generations. I'm actually a sixth generation member of the church. I'm a cousin to Joseph Smith. I have a great uncle who served as a president of the church, George Albert Smith. So I have a long history there. But I want Martine to know how much I love her and how much I'm here to support her in this journey.

John Dehlin [00:05:52] Beautiful. Thank you, Stuart.

Martine Smith [00:05:54] And I'd like to add how much I have appreciated that support. Our nearly daily, long, lengthy conversations about everything Mormon have been invaluable over our approaching 50 year marriage.

John Dehlin [00:06:15] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:06:15] Isn't that something? I mean, that's so worth honoring with just what we know right now about your story, how much your love, how much you've experienced together. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:26] I mean, one of the things I've noticed as a friend or as an admirer, from the distance, there's a very significant mixed faith element to your story. Not because you were necessarily on different pages belief wise, but maybe in terms of practice, there's been differences for how you've lived your Mormonism. So it's not necessarily mixed faith, but mixed practices. Does that make sense? And that's been inspiring to see your commitment to each other over the years as you've both navigated changes in faith and practice.

Margi Dehlin [00:06:59] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:06:59] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:07:00] And it's in their grandparenting story, which I really love, which I hope will explore some too, is grandparenting in an a mixed faith kind of extended family context.

Stuart Smith [00:07:09] Beautiful.

Martine's Childhood and Life Before Mormonism

John Dehlin [00:07:11] All right, so let's go ahead and jump into your Mormon story. But your story begins pre for you, Martine, your story begins pre Mormonism. So let's start with a little bit of background.

Martine Smith [00:07:24] It does. So I was born in Belgium of Belgian parents in 1954. So I'm not hiding my age. I was born in the eastern part of Belgium in a large. What was a large industrial city at the time called the Age, fairly close to both the German and the Netherlands borders, within 30, 50 miles. 20, actually 50 miles to the German border. I have one sister who's five years older than me, come from a very working class family. When I was three, my parents separated and of course we lived with my mother. My mother raised us. She absolutely devoted her life to her two daughters. She gave up everything for us, including eventually giving us up when we moved to the United States. My mother was a war refugee. World War II started when she had just turned 18. And so when Russia invaded Ukraine last year, it was very emotional for me to see refugees because I have my mother's story that I recorded from her, and we have visited sites where even she and her mother and sister lived during those first months of World War II. I grew up mostly estranged from my father. We would visit him every couple weeks, but my father just didn't have a knack with children. And he and I reconciled fairly late in his life. It was through his efforts and especially his second wife, who just really pushed for us to reconcile. And it's hard to do when you're, you know, so many thousands of miles away. But we did. And by the time he passed away, he was not any warmer than he had been when I was growing up. But we were able to communicate. And as a huge surprise to me, we went to see him about a month before he passed away. He had colon cancer. And when I got a phone call saying he was about to go into a coma, they were increasing the morphine he had not wanted. He had had a little surgery, but hadn't wanted chemo or anything. So I got a phone call in early April that he was going to be put into a coma, and I was able to talk to him, and I was. Something happened that if you told me 10 years earlier, I would have told you I would never cry when my father passed away. And I did. And that just really surprised me that I had gotten to the point where I was truly sad that we went 15, 20 years without a relationship, without speaking to each other, and that here at the end, I wished we had more time.

John Dehlin [00:10:36] And that was at what age?

Martine Smith [00:10:39] I'm sorry?

John Dehlin [00:10:40] That was at what age?

Martine Smith [00:10:41] So that was actually. That was exactly 20 years ago.

John Dehlin [00:10:44] Oh, okay.

Martine Smith [00:10:45] Yeah, that. That he passed away 2003.

John Dehlin [00:10:47] All right.

Martine Smith [00:10:49] Like I said, I had very, very modest upbringing. We didn't have television and we didn't have a car. We had a single mom, and those things were considered luxuries. We moved several times while we were growing up as mom tried to better her employment and our living conditions. I was born Catholic, like most people in Belgium, so grew up as a Catholic. Made my first communion when I was 7, my second communion when I was 12. My mother, because she was separated from my dad at the time, they weren't divorced, but Catholic doctrine was pretty strict about people who were divorced or they were officially separated, legally separated, not being able to go to church and attend Mass. So my mother did eventually, when we moved into the city, and nobody knew her and the priest didn't know her, so she felt free to take us to church. But my mother always had questions about religion. And when she was a young woman, one of the activities was to go on retreats with the local priest in the village where she grew up. So they would go for two or three days at, you know, some religious site, and my mother always had questions for the priests. And then as she became a young woman, same thing. She met a priest that she really trusted and, and had religious questions. I'm not sure exactly what. By the time I was old enough and we were discussing those things, so I don't know, I was 10, 12, 13 years old. My mother's questions revolved a lot around the wealth of the Catholic Church. She was very unhappy about that. So I did make my second communion, which is when you actually receive the Holy Ghost. And it's a big feast, it's a big family thing. It's a two day affair. You wear a white dress on Sunday and then you have a nice new dress or a suit on Monday. And anyway, it's a very big family affair. You go out, you know, you gotta, you rent a hall and have, you know, a big family meal, extended family. And after that we pretty much stopped going to church. So I was 12, so we stopped going to the Catholic Church. I have no recollection of going to mass after that. Then one fine afternoon in the month of May, 1970, on the 3rd of May, which was a Sunday, my sister and I, by then, by then I was 15 and my sister was 20. You know, when you're younger, five years is a huge, you know, it's a huge gap and you know, you just fight all the time. But by then I was a teenager and you know, she was 20. And we were pretty isolated in the city. We lived in an apartment, you know, just right downtown and so nobody else with children or even young people. So my sister and I used to go walking around the center of town on Sunday and then we'd stop and have a, you know, a cup of coffee or lemonade or something. And one dead Sunday, the 3rd of May, 1970, we were walking and we came to a square near our house and there was a group of people assembled and they had like what looked like a big, huge volume, big book that was open on, sitting on a nasal. And we walked over and before we could get close to it to actually see what the pictures were and all of that, a young man came forward and introduced himself. And I have no recollection really what he said other than would you like a free book? And we said, sure. And I thought they were going to give us the book right there. Instead he took down our address And I don't remember if they set a time. No, no, because I thought that they would mail it at that point. Since they didn't give it to us, I thought they were just going to mail it. But on Tuesday, so two days later, around 7 o', clock the doorbell rang and we answered. And they must have said something about, you know, you met us on Sunday, we're missionaries. And so they came upstairs, four flights up to our little flat and introduced themselves and asked if they could teach us. And those were elders. And so they taught us the first discussion, just my sister and me. My mother was, you know, she was in the next room. So they taught us the first discussion. They asked if they could come back in a week, so we said yes. And a week later, the sister missionaries showed up. Because I was 15 and my sister was 20, and even with my mother next door, they just thought it was a better idea to have the sisters teach us.

John Dehlin [00:15:49] May I ask a question?

Martine Smith [00:15:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:51] So what made you even want to talk to them? What was it about your life situation or what they said or presented that, like, made you want to even give them the time of the day? Was there. Were there needs you were trying to fill? Did they just have a pitch that was super compelling? What was it?

Martine Smith [00:16:08] That's a really good question that I've never really asked myself right off the bat. Obviously, you know, it was a free book. You know, like, somebody comes to your door and they're offering you something and you think, oh, okay, you know, yeah, or they stop you in the street. So the first discussion, I just have

John Dehlin [00:16:25] to say, if you read books on influence gifting something, it's why. It's why waiters and waitresses give a piece of candy when they give the check. Because psychologically speaking, giving a gift makes someone psychologically feel partially indebted back. That's. I'm not saying that was their intent, but that's a common sales technique, just as a matter of fact.

Martine Smith [00:16:47] So, yeah, anyway, and we just dug through some things a few weeks ago, and the first discussion, you know, I asked, said something to Stuart, and, you know, it's been 50 plus years since his mission, but he went like, well, it's the apostasy. And it is in the first discussion. So I found his discussion book and went through it and reread part of the. Part of that lesson. And, you know, maybe because of our disappointment with the Catholic Church, you know, because we were not engaged, you know, telling us that the church, and especially those discussions back then, you know, spelled out Catholic Church and Protestant church. I mean, you knew who was the great and abominable, abominable whore of the earth. It was the Catholic Church. So that may have had something to do with it because it's sort of answered, you know, some of our unease with our Own upbringing, our own religious upbringing. I've never really thought about that. But you know, maybe that was it. So after the third discussion, my mother, who had been eavesdropping in the next room for the first three, decided that she felt comfortable enough to join us. So she did. In the meantime, we had. My sister and I had gone to church and there might have been maybe something that moved my mother because we came back just enthralled. The missionaries came and met us at the door because the chapel was in the suburb and took a bus, but that was okay. But you had to know where to get off and all that. So the missionaries accompanied us, the sisters and Mutual in Belgium at the time. I can't speak for what they do now. I think they follow the program more than they did 50 years ago. But every ward was the same. In Belgium. It wasn't mutual for the youth, for the 12 to 18, it was really a branch social. Everybody came. You had 70 year old people and you had young families with kids and we would sit in a big circle and someone would teach a gospel lesson. So was it anything, you know, no, my maid classes or anything like that. It was just really a great social opportunity. You played ping pong, some people played basketball. The missionaries were there. There were, you know, there was. I don't remember that we had refreshments much but. But it was just a great bonding experience for, for the branch.

Stuart Smith [00:19:16] Community.

Martine Smith [00:19:17] Community, definitely community.

John Dehlin [00:19:20] Yeah. Okay.

Martine Smith [00:19:21] Healthy community.

John Dehlin [00:19:22] Yeah.

Martine Smith [00:19:23] Like, you know, I lived in an environment where everybody was a smoker. My mother was a smoker from World War II. Thank you GIs. So, you know, and everybody drank and like I didn't like alcohol. Now there's no. There may be laws in Belgium now, but they weren't anywhere when I was growing up in terms of, you know, legal drinking age. So, you know, we had, we sometimes had. Had beer Stella that you see everywhere. I grew up on Stella. It's not like we didn't. I think because my mom was a single woman, we didn't really have alcohol in the, in the house. Generally she would keep like something for when one of her brothers would come help her with a house project or something like that so she could offer them something to drink. But you know, we were not drinkers. But if you went to large family functions, you know, there was wine, there was hard liquor. And I remember just hating that part of it. I just wasn't interested. Champagne was another thing. I did like champagne. So yes, it was community. It was the clean cut. Not just the missionaries but, you know, the ward members, the Liege branch was known. Stuart may mention it later, was known for a really good youth group. So even though we had all ages, on Wednesday night, we really had a good core group. You know, all of them, pretty much all of them were converts. Had been converts during their, you know, their teenage years. Some of them were early 20s. So we had a group that, you know, on Saturday, we went to the movies downtown together. And, yeah, that was. That was a big deal. And I remember years ago wondering, was I really, like, converted? Did I even read the Book of Mormon? And I found my triple combination, my French triple combination that the missionaries gave me. And, yeah, I was reading scriptures. They're marked. They're heavily marked. So I did read. You know, I read the assignments, plus I read other things. I read the Book of Mormon eventually in French.

Growing Up in Belgium and Joining the Church

John Dehlin [00:21:25] So in Belgium, there's Flemish and French. Right. And Belgians can be either native French speakers or Flemish. Which were you?

Martine Smith [00:21:34] So I'm native French speaker.

John Dehlin [00:21:36] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:36] Yeah.

Martine Smith [00:21:36] The southern part of Belgium is French. The northern part is Flemish.

John Dehlin [00:21:40] I have to ask one other thing. What was the impact of American reputation and culture on the church's reputation and on your interest? Like, there's World War II involvement of the US liberating Europe or whatever? Like, there's Osmonds potentially. Like, what. What was. What was your perception of America? And was that influence?

Martine Smith [00:22:00] Yeah, Osmonds were not on the. On our radar screen. But my mother had lived through the war. My mother's village had been liberated by the Americans on September 9, 1944. So she had very fond memories of Americans who liberated them. So I think that's one of the reasons that she eventually joined us during the discussions is that the little bit of English she spoke she learned during the war with. With the gis. So, yeah, that was.

John Dehlin [00:22:36] The fact that the Mormon Church was an American religion probably was an asset to the church's.

Martine Smith [00:22:41] Yes, I would say so. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:43] Okay. Okay. All right. So it was part doctrinal, part social conversion, right?

Margi Dehlin [00:22:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:51] Yeah. How about spiritual? Do you think you guys. You and your sister and. Or your family had kind of a spiritual longing where you were trying to add some sort of emotional or spiritual element to your lives, or is that even.

Martine Smith [00:23:05] I wouldn't. For me, I wouldn't say so. I can't speak for my sister or my mom, but I wouldn't say so. So we attended, you know, mutual a couple of. Well, several times every every Wednesday. And the missionaries set a baptismal date for Saturday, June 20th. So about you know, six weeks. Just enough time to get the six discussions for my sister and me. So we were baptized on, on that date and my mother was baptized about a month later.

John Dehlin [00:23:35] She did get baptized.

Martine Smith [00:23:36] She did get baptized.

John Dehlin [00:23:37] I mean, she had promised to quit smoking.

Martine Smith [00:23:39] She did. And that was, that was the hard thing. Like we drank coffee, you know, drank coffee in the morning, drank coffee at lunch. I may have been drinking coffee at night too, I don't remember. But I've been. I mean, as a kid, I'd been drinking coffee since I was, since I was a little girl. There was no prohibition on that. Obviously giving up alcohol was no problem. And I had never tried smoking because I hated the habit. So.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:03] So remind me how old you were when you were baptized.

Martine Smith [00:24:07] So I was a few months shy of my 16th birthday. Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:13] I was curious, what would you say in remembering yourself back then? How would you describe yourself, your growing up? I'm looking for like context of you, just kind of what you enjoyed, if there were hobbies, if you, you know, just a little, a little piece of you growing up.

Martine Smith [00:24:32] So my mother grew up in a village about, I don't know, I'm going to say 15 miles, no more than that, from Liege where we lived. And it's a beautiful little village. And in 1964, so six years before we met the missionaries, my mother really every, like we would go spend the weekend, like we, we'd go on Saturday, take the bus and spend the night either with a friend of the family or with one of my mom's sisters. And my mother decided she wanted to buy a little house. And so she found this house literally in $1964. The house was $1,000 and it was built and it still exists, and somebody else remodeled it with money we didn't have, but it was built. So the village is on the site and there's still walls and all of that of an 800, well, I'm going to say a 1200 year old fortress. So our house was actually had been built above one of the watchtowers. So we had like a round balcony and the little house just had four rooms, two downstairs, two upstairs. No plumbing, no indoor plumbing in there. And then on the street was a little rock house, local rock, and there we had plumbing and pretty much we cooked there and we slept in the other house and we spent our summers there. We spent every weekend there. I felt a lot of love. I had a lot of extended family because that's where my mother grew up. My mother was number 10 of 11 children and a lot of the cousins still lived. It was a village of only about 2,000 people.

Stuart Smith [00:26:30] So

Martine Smith [00:26:32] I, it was, anyway, it was a fun, it was a fun place to spend a month every, every summer

John Dehlin [00:26:41] and, and you were getting at what was her personality, her interests, is that right?

Margi Dehlin [00:26:46] Well, I love that, I love that piece of kind of. But yeah, also your personality. And as you got older, you know, to the point that now you're joining the church. Also at school, if you had certain interests or subjects that you loved, personality traits.

Martine Smith [00:27:03] I struggled in school. I did not know I was ADHD until I was nearly 50 years old. So I struggled in school, especially with subjects like algebra, which are linear thinking. And I don't do that. I was a bit of a, I mean, I was a teenager, so I'm going to say I was a bit of a rebel. I tended to speak out against what I saw as injustices at school. Now the schools in Belgium are not organized nearly like you don't have a class president and all of that. But I, when we attempted to do that in middle school, I think I was sort of one of the leaders. Like, our school was a nine story building with a courtyard in the center. And so all of our classes were way high up. And there was a terrace at the top that we were supposed to be able to use during breaks, but. And it had really high walls. It's not like, you know, we were going to jump over, but they never let us use it, so we could never go outside. So you were locked in, you know, from 8:30 in the morning until 5:00 clock at night. And I remember like leading a campaign on how can we get up there, how can we get out in the fresh air during the day. So, yes, I was always pushed back a little on what everybody seemed to accept as okay, normal, okay, why'd you rock the boat?

Margi Dehlin [00:28:43] I love that insight.

John Dehlin [00:28:45] Yeah, maybe that'll come into play later perhaps. Okay, so you get baptized and your sister and your mom and you start doing the Mormon thing around 1970, 71.

Martine's Mormon Activity and Core Beliefs

Martine Smith [00:28:59] Yeah. So, you know, we are all in. So my mother has stopped smoking and that's, you know, that's great. We're happy about that. My sister and me, you know, are just happy about that. That was hard for her because she'd been doing it since the mid-40s, but she, you know, she has stopped. She's a member and we're just all in. We attend every Sunday, we attend every Wednesday. My sister and I almost immediately get callings. So even though Mutual was like I said it was very loosely organized. There was a young man and young women presidency. So we both get called into the young women presidency. My sister's a counselor, and I think I was called a secretary, but I was 15, 16 by then. So we're, you know, we're immediately involved. We make really good friends with some of the young men and. And women there and have just a, you know, just have a great time. I mean, it's a different. We have something to do. Like, we have something fun to go somewhere fun to go to during the week. You know, every Wednesday, you look forward to that getting together. Something else that the branch did was that every. Not. Maybe not every month, every Sunday night, but anyway, frequently, and it may have been every Sunday night, members would gather in one particular member's home and we'd have refreshments. And that member, he'd been a member like 10 years, and he would teach a lesson. So that was yet another, you know, another way to gather. And I'm saying it was on Sunday. I'm pretty sure it was on Sunday because we wouldn't have done it on Monday. But, you know, that's when we had. Back in the old days when you also had sacrament meeting in the, you know, on Sunday, late afternoon, early evening. So that was yet, you know, another chance to learn. Also. We were just hungry to learn. You know, there wasn't a whole lot of church material that was translated. So we did, you know, we had a triple combination. The missionaries had given us. Oh, I think one of the missionaries, I still have it, gave me Talmadge's. The House of the Lord was a little blue volume in French. She wrote a little note in it. We were given Legrand Richards, a marvelous work in a wonder. But, you know, there was literally probably not half. Half a dozen Jesus, the Christ Articles of Faith, those had been translated, but there, you know, there was nothing else. And pamphlets, you know, obviously the missionary pamphlets we had that.

John Dehlin [00:31:53] Let me ask just really briefly, if you had to. I'm going to ask you a couple core Mormon teachings and ask you what they taught you. Is that. Okay, so first of all, who was the president or prophet? This is late David O. McKay, early Joseph Fielding Smith.

Martine Smith [00:32:10] This is after David O. McKay died in January 1970. So that is Joseph Fielding Smith. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:18] So Joseph Smith would have been your first prophet. Okay. What, you know, in terms of, like, the church's relationship to God? What were you taught in terms of, like, the Mormon, the church, Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is what God's.

Martine Smith [00:32:33] What is God's only true church upon the face of the earth. The prophet speaks to God. This is your access to God is through the church.

John Dehlin [00:32:48] And Joseph Smith in his first vision

Martine Smith [00:32:51] was what Joseph Smith. I don't have really sharp recollections of what I thought of the first vision at the time, but I probably accepted it at the time. You know, it seemed miraculous and sort of certainly out of the ordinary. I certainly. Well, I want to say I'd never heard anything like that except in the Catholic Church. You have, you know, the Virgin Mary appearing to young women, whether it be in Lourdes or actually, there's another one close to my hometown that's still, you know, that's still a site of pilgrimage. I had gone there as a young woman with probably with our parish, you know, and you bring home holy water from the. The spring, you know, that sprang when the Virgin Mary. So, you know, stuff like that wasn't totally out of the ordinary, but God and Jesus Christ were a bigger deal.

John Dehlin [00:33:48] So the fact that the church was claiming that God and Jesus spoke to Joseph meant what to you?

Martine Smith [00:33:55] It meant that that was serious stuff.

John Dehlin [00:33:57] Yeah. And the Book of Mormon was what to you taught is what to you?

Martine Smith [00:34:05] Well, the Book of Mormon was a history of the American Indians. In. In America? Yeah, in the Americas.

Stuart Smith [00:34:13] Right.

John Dehlin [00:34:14] Yeah. And. And Lamanites. Who are the Lamanites?

Martine Smith [00:34:18] The Lamanites were today's. Were the. Were the ancestors of today's Indians that I would watch in cowboy and Indian movies on the black and white screen when I was little.

John Dehlin [00:34:32] Now, this would have been eight years before the. The priesthood and temple bands were lifted on black people. What would you. Would you have even been taught about that or even known about it?

Martine Smith [00:34:42] Didn't know anything about it. Don't know when I found out, actually.

John Dehlin [00:34:46] Okay. So a very, you know, and even like Joseph Smith's translation of the Book of Mormon. What would they have taught you about that?

Martine Smith [00:34:54] Just what the church's illustrations of the time showed. He sat there with the plates next to him, maybe a curtain separating him from his scribe, and with his finger on the plates and dictating to his scribe. That's how the Book of Mormon was translated until fairly recently.

John Dehlin [00:35:14] Yeah. Okay, so very traditional teachings. Had you learned anything about polygamy, Joseph Smith's polygamy in those early years,

Martine Smith [00:35:26] that will come up like the following a couple of years later after an incident that occurred in the branch where the sitting branch president was excommunicated. So I can certainly not taught by the missionaries. No mention of Polygamy whatsoever.

John Dehlin [00:35:52] Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Just wanted to kind of establish what teachings brought you into the church, because I'm guessing learning different accounts later are gonna. That's gonna be an important part of your eventual faith journey.

Martine Smith [00:36:06] True, right.

John Dehlin [00:36:08] Yeah.

Martine Smith [00:36:08] Yeah. The missionaries gave us a book, and I. I actually. I have it in French, so there were some things that were published. It's a. It's a black cover. It's a heartbound book with, like, orange stripes on it. And I can't remember if it says, what about the Mormons or the Mormons. Do you remember, Stuart? So I found the English version of it at Sam Weller's bookstore a few years ago, and I just had to buy it. But that's a black and white book that just, you know, it's the church history. There's. There are pictures. There's also drawings. There is a section on Salt Lake City that shows the wide variety of denominations in the city. And I like that book because I used to thumb through, and now I live actually within walking distance of so many of the churches that are other denominations. The First Baptist Church is two blocks north of US Unitarian a few blocks north of that. And then it also shows LDS Church buildings in Salt Lake and other places. And one of them is our stake center right now, for example. You know, I sort of cherish that for. For the girl that I was, the innocent girl that I was who thumped through that book and dreamt of Utah and. And you know, how perfect it must be. And what most converts do you mean Meet the Mormons, the name Meet the Mormons. Yeah, well, that's been. Yes, that's been.

John Dehlin [00:37:40] And what comes to my mind, I don't. You know, the Book of Mormon musical has a song called Salta Le Casiti, and it's basically about a. A young African girl converting to Mormonism and dreaming about what Salt Lake City and the church and the prophet will all be like once she gets there. Almost like Dorothy dreamt of Oz or Galind or. Or Elphaba in the musical Wicked, how she dreamt about Oz. How would you have dreamt about Salt Lake City and the church being. If you ever got a chance to go there someday? Does that make sense?

Martine Smith [00:38:12] Yeah, well, you know, like missionaries, you know, obviously, you know, decades before the Internet, you know, missionaries share their family pictures, share the pictures of their house. And when you're talking about Utah, you know, in the summer, you're talking about blue sky, and everything is clean and the streets are clean, and, you know, I live in Europe where everything is old and it rains a lot and it mists a lot. Well, you lived in Seattle, you know that, you know, the rain that almost comes from falls, doesn't fall, it comes upside down. So yeah, you just imagine that, you know, you've got this little nucleus in your branch and it's so great. And you imagine living like that all the time. Not just when you're at church, but you know, in the city as you walk around and. Cause I'm sure you pictures of byu, you know, clean, beautiful campus, all new buildings, cute kids. Cute kids.

John Dehlin [00:39:12] Because I mean, I'm sure now you've studied, there's a long history of teenage European immigrants and specifically female teenage immigrants being converted by missionaries in Europe who then immigrate to the United States. I mean, you would have been part of a multi century initiative to bring teenage girls right west. True.

Martine Smith [00:39:38] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:39:39] I'm sure you've thought about that.

Martine Smith [00:39:40] And my first trip to Utah, 1970, fall 1971, was to come visit a missionary. So I was here for a month. So I wasn't here to stay. But yeah, it was. Well, you know, it was to see Utah. And he wasn't the only person I visited with, but. But clearly he had invited me. He and his family had invited me.

John Dehlin [00:39:59] So. Any other essential parts of your European Mormon story before you come to the us?

The Church in Belgium Then and Now

Martine Smith [00:40:06] I have a little line there about the current situation in Belgium for the church. And I was checking on the church's website like this worldwide church. And then you can pick the continent and then the country, because I had found that last year. And so the church membership in belgium is about 6,500 right now.

John Dehlin [00:40:31] Then there is in 2023.

Martine Smith [00:40:32] In 2023 at least. And I think those stats actually come from the church. And then it shows. So there are two stakes. One in Flemish speaking, Belgium, so the north, so it's the Antwerp steak, I think they call it. And then the Belgian stake, the Brussels stake, which is for the French speaking. There are a total for the entire country of 12 units now. 10 wards, 2 branches. I know one of them is foreign speaking. I think it's Spanish, which is sort of strange in Belgium, but anyway. But then there's a text below that that just tells the story. And if you go to any country, sometimes it's longer or shorter and it's written by a local and there's a local phone number for a member in Belgium. The text was last updated. It talks of Elder Uchdorf's visit, I think in 2018. And so it has been updated. And yet something that hasn't been updated in the text is that it's. They say that there are 28 units of the church meeting in 25 meeting houses. And that is absolutely totally inaccurate because right above it it Sundays there are 12 units of the church. So over a number of years, Starting in the 2000s, smaller units, smaller branches, even one where Stuart served, which had a chapel that was built, brand new chapel that was built 1971, 72 time period that unit was closed and the chapel was sold and torn down. So there's 6,500 members. When, you know, we still go every year, but the year my mother passed away in 2019, we had dinner with some friends, a couple, it's about our age in their case. They're lifelong members of the church. They both have stake callings, so they travel frequently throughout the stake. And they were bemoaning the fact that the Liege ward now, so that was my old branch, sorry. The Liege ward has about 1100 members on the rolls and between 100 and 110 on any given Sunday. So about a 10% activity rate. So two years ago, President Nelson announced the temple in Brussels. There are 12 units, two of them are branches. I don't believe any of the other units has larger attendance that includes children. So, you know, you do the math. But that temple is being built for an extremely. To serve an extremely small number of members. I mean, it's almost like building a temple to serve my steak here in Salt Lake.

Stuart Smith [00:43:37] Wow.

John Dehlin [00:43:37] So if you were to sort of give us your guess for like how strong the. The Mormon church was in Belgium at the time you converted versus, like, did it do well for a while and then start to decline? Is it weaker now than it was when you converted? Like, what. How would you assess the churches, the Mormon church's strength and vitality in Belgium, you know, over the past 40 or 50 years relative to where it is now, when.

Martine Smith [00:44:05] So I belong to the, you know, to the ward Facebook group and I interact with members because I still have friends there when I look at the pictures. And of course I attended church while my, you know, with my mother. I would take my mother to church.

John Dehlin [00:44:18] Whenever you go back and visit.

Martine Smith [00:44:19] When I go back and visit.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:21] So

Martine Smith [00:44:24] a lot of the strong people that I knew are no longer there, but some of them are still there. The few baptisms that occur are mostly minorities, immigrants, immigrants or children of immigrants. Belgium had a very strong relationship, obviously because it was a colony with the Congo, which is now the Democratic Republic of the Congo. So, you know, people whose families have been there, you know, since the 60s, like they came to study at a Belgian university, for example, and they stayed. Some of the old teachings, however, are still somewhat prevalent about racism. And that can be very hurtful to. I mean, I'm going to say probably 10, 15 years ago, I was, I was sitting in Sunday school with my mother, and there's a couple from the Congo. They're very, very active. They have several, you know, several children. They're very devoted in every way to the church. The instructor was one of the very old school members, probably joined in the late 50s, I'm going to guess. And the lesson somehow touched on blacks in the priesthood. And he brought up that. The instructor brought up blacks were less valiant in their pre existence. Now when you're facing, you know, a Sunday school class with Africans, not just, you know, not just dark people, but Africans, the very ones that were discriminated against, and those are, you know, staunch members of your ward. So the, the black brother got up and just started arguing with the, with the instructor, and the instructor just dug his heels. No, that's, that's doctrine. You know, you were less valiant in their pre existence. That's, that's why you're black. That's why you were born in Africa. It got very heated. The wife also got up and I was sitting like toward the back, and it was just going back and forth between the instructor and this couple, this husband and wife. And they told me later that President Faust had come to Belgium to a different area, you know, touring the mission. And the black members had traveled there. They knew he was going to be there, and they had traveled there to speak to him, to have an audience with him and to beg him to please update teaching materials and just be really forthright about it. Doesn't, you know, you're sort of saying it under your breath now that it's not. Doesn't have anything to. And that was before the race and the Priesthood essay. You're sort of saying it under your breath, but, you know, it's not getting through to a lot of members, especially the older members. You know, we still get this thrown in our face. And it would be years before the church actually did disavow those teachings.

John Dehlin [00:47:36] So I'll ask you two kind of summative questions here. If you had to guess kind of what year the pinnacle of the Mormon Church's strength in Belgium would be, give us an approximate year that you would say would be the pinnacle of the Church's strength in Belgium.

Martine Smith [00:47:52] Well, Since I left in 1973, it's a little bit difficult for me to say, but I think the 70s and maybe the 80s were still fairly good years.

John Dehlin [00:48:01] Okay.

Martine Smith [00:48:02] And, you know, but I still had, you know, baptisms and, you know, a lot of. A lot of activity. So I don't know exactly when things started. I'm trying to remember, like, what my mother started. Yeah. So I think.

John Dehlin [00:48:19] And then where it is, like, if you had to compare where it is now in terms of weakness to, like, how far back it's. It's how long ago it's been since the church has been this week in Belgium, is it weaker than when you joined?

Martine Smith [00:48:33] Oh, no, it was really strong when I joined.

John Dehlin [00:48:35] So the Mormon church in 2023 is weaker in Belgium than when you joined in 1970, is that what you're saying?

Martine Smith [00:48:43] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:48:43] Okay. That's what I was trying to get a sense of, and I think that's true across Western Europe. The Mormon Church is dying all across Western Europe. That's my sense. That's not a bias. That's just my sense.

Martine Smith [00:48:56] That's. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:57] Okay.

Martine Smith [00:48:57] Well, I mean, you know, the. The shrinkage. I mean, the elimination of so many units, I mean, from 28 in that text, whenever it was written, to 12 today nationwide.

John Dehlin [00:49:11] Yeah,

Martine Smith [00:49:13] those small branches just. It was just too difficult. It was too difficult to have the appropriate number of priesthood leaders. But it's created a real. An additional burden on the members who have remained because of traveling time. You know, suddenly they have to travel to the big city. Some have cars, some don't. So you've had attrition just because some of them just can't get there. There's no convenient public transport. During that same dinner with those friends three or four years ago, they mentioned a sister who is Flemish speaking, and her unit had been eliminated not too long before. She's not fluent in French, and yet the closest unit for her to attend was my old ward in Liege. And that necessitated that she take a bus and then the train and then two buses, because from the train you've got to take a bus, get you downtown, and one to get you to the chapel in the suburbs. And, you know, there is the time factor. There's also the monetary factor. You know, it's not like they're excused from paying tithing because they have travel expenses every Sunday. So, you know, some members only come once a month because of that. Yeah, and that's true. You know, I've heard, you know, our friends, the Brit Vengers and, you know, gasoline's a lot more expensive there. And I saw that in. In my ward, my old ward. They, they. They have almost monthly worldwide activities, and they're fantastic. I mean, I'm looking at that, and I think our wards don't do that in the US but it was like, November. They had, like, this terrific multicultural activity. And one of the comments on Facebook from someone said, oh, now that I see the pictures, I should have come Saturday instead of Sunday. So, you know, you have to choose. You can't. I know my mother had to. You know, she would say, plus she was elderly, but, you know, I can't. And members, of course, you still have the incredibly devoted members who, even with the extraordinary high price of gas, you know, go pick up various members. I mean, if they have a car big enough to pick up, you know, a couple of people, they do. My mother was picked up for years, and the person who did had to backtrack in order to pick her up.

John Dehlin [00:51:46] The church is in a real pickle because as membership starts to thin and as Europe and the world becomes more secular in the developed world, they. These wards will have just 50 members in it. So they'll want to consolidate wards, so there's a critical mass of. Critical mass of membership to have a good experience. But as soon as they're shutting down chapels to consolidate wards and sell off real estate, then they're making it harder for members to actually attend. And so they're in kind of a double bind.

Martine Smith [00:52:18] It is. Yeah. It really is.

Patriarchal Blessing and Coming to America

John Dehlin [00:52:21] All right, well, what else is important about your Belgian Mormon story before we bring you to the U.S. okay, well,

Martine Smith [00:52:28] I'll tell you just that. In 1971, my sister went on a mission. She just couldn't. You know, she was dying. She was already 21. She was dying to go on a mission. She got called to the French Polynesian Mission, so Tahiti, and had to go through Hawaii, where there was a language training mission which preceded the mtc. It was language training mission for the Pacific. So if you went to Japan, you went through that ltm, and if you went to the islands of the Pacific, you went there, too. I don't know where else, but so she had to go through Salt Lake to do that. And so one of the. The missionaries who had actually really first met us there at that street meeting, had her stay with the family. So she got to tour Salt Lake for, like, four or five days, and he had arranged for her to get her patriarchal blessing. Belgium didn't have a stake, so we didn't have a patriarch so the nearest patriarch was at the Swiss temple at the time. So she received her patriarchal blessing from the church patriarch in church administration building. And the church patriarch at the time was Elder Eldred G. Smith. And that will become relevant later too. So six weeks later, this was already planned? No, not even that. Three weeks later. I arrived in early September with three other young women. They were more in their early 20s, but from my, from my branch, we were coming for a month for October conference. So we arrived in early September and, you know, Left, I think the 7th of October, right after conference. Of course, I fell in love with Utah. You know, the missionary I was visiting took me down to the Grand Canyon, to Bryce. And, you know, it was gorgeous and it was fall and the fall colors, you know, it was like nothing else. I knew everything was clean, everything was beautiful. I couldn't wait to come back. So I made plans to come back. But while I was here, that same missionary, that missionary had arranged for me to also receive my patriarchal blessing and had made an appointment at the church administration building with Elder G. Smith. Elder Eldred G. Smith.

John Dehlin [00:54:43] So because Belgium didn't have its own

Martine Smith [00:54:45] patriarch, you had to go at that time, you had to go to the church patriarch.

John Dehlin [00:54:51] Okay.

Martine Smith [00:54:52] You couldn't just go anywhere, like to another, you know, to another country or something.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:56] Interesting.

John Dehlin [00:54:57] And so Mormon Church headquarters had a general purpose patriarch that could provide blessings when people didn't have one another.

Martine Smith [00:55:05] When people didn't have another. And he traveled. Yeah, like, and he would travel, you know, other states and other countries and would just give a whole bunch of blessings, you know, wherever he was.

John Dehlin [00:55:16] And would he have been a blood descendant of, of, of the Smith family? Yes, because that's. That maybe modern Mormons don't know this, that there was a church high level patriarchy position that by requirement needed to be of Joseph Smith's blood lineage. Right, Stuart, that, you know, you're, you're nodding.

Stuart Smith [00:55:37] Yes, yes, there is Joseph Smith senior. Joseph's father was the first church patriarchy.

John Dehlin [00:55:46] And that, and that, but that blood lineage tied to calling, it's almost like a monarchical kind of thing. That's something that we don't really do or talk about these days. But it, but it is a part of our heritage and part of your, Part of your ancestry, right, Stuart?

Stuart Smith [00:56:05] Yes. Yeah.

Martine Smith [00:56:06] Yes. And actually if you look at his ancestry, that was, you know, the George A. Smith and his son and his grandson were all apostles and that was, you know, quite frequent. They're not the only family you can look at the Youngs and the Kimballs and, you know, all the early families of the. Of the church. Even though the calling wasn't a blood calling, somehow the nepotism entered a bit into that and a little bit or a lot. So. So I received my blessing. It was obviously, it was in English, and Eldred G. Smith used thee and thou in giving blessings. So I certainly didn't understand any of it. The missionary told me, wow, that was a long blessing. And then I got home and maybe a month or so later, I received.

John Dehlin [00:57:04] Do you remember how you felt during the blessing? Was it weird? Was it cool? Was it spiritual? Because that's a. Not all of us get to go to church headquarters and have a blessing by a literal descendant, blood descendant of the Joseph Smith family. Was it at the church office building? Like, what was all that?

Martine Smith [00:57:20] Yeah, it was at the. The administration building. It was in the old building, you know, with all the wood, dark woodwork, with all the apostles are, too. I didn't know that at the time, but, you know, the old elevator, you know, and all of that. I do remember that.

John Dehlin [00:57:33] What was that like for you?

Martine Smith [00:57:34] It was pretty impressive. I remember he also took me. So the church office building behind that was new at the time, was fairly new. And so I. And it was like, you know, you could just walk in and you could just walk down in the parking garage, and you could go to the area where the 12 parked. You know, this is early 1970s, so they're all driving boats, you know, these huge American cars, you know, these gigantic things. Very impressive. And there's a name plate above each parking spot, you know, and you can read the entire First Presidency and Quorum of the twelve. And, you know, that's their car. So that was sort of. That was sort of cool. What did I feel? I don't think I fully understood because I hadn't planned on this. You know, he just told me when I arrived, hey, I made an appointment for you to get your patriarchal blessing. And I'm not sure how much communication, probably not much with my sister, you know, who was in Hawaii. So the male and all of that back in those days. I'm not even sure that I was aware that she had received hers from the same patriarch. So I know. I'm pretty sure I felt like it was long, you know, and, you know, at that point in my young church life, I hadn't received a lot of blessings. You know, I'd been set apart once that that was probably it. So.

John Dehlin [00:58:57] And do you remember any. Any passages in the blessing that really stood out to you at the time as being meaningful or powerful?

Martine Smith [00:59:05] Well, they didn't stand up to me at the time because they were in English and they were in the. Be Thou forms a different language. Nothing stood out.

John Dehlin [00:59:11] Okay.

Martine Smith [00:59:12] You know, but then I. I mean,

John Dehlin [00:59:15] that have meant a lot to you over the years.

Martine Smith [00:59:16] Yes. And we can talk about that now or you can. We can talk about it later.

John Dehlin [00:59:20] When did you want to talk about the slides?

Martine Smith [00:59:22] Probably. So this is my. This is the French version. It's well worn.

John Dehlin [00:59:31] Yeah. It was translated from English.

Martine Smith [00:59:33] It was translated from English by the same man who, in my stake over there, was very fluent in English, had been a member quite a long time. So he's. He translated like Jesus the Christ and all of that. So he was, you know, he was a good translator.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:52] So.

Martine Smith [00:59:53] Yes, I used it a lot. This was the original. Yeah, I think that. Yeah, I think that is the original. So it's, you know, it's fairly lengthy, of course, wide margins, but still it's fairly lengthy. I clung to passages. Maybe we can talk about it later, because it has to do with the. With our children, with. With our experiences with our children and how I clung to certain words and I sought for answers in my blessing as to why, you know, what the purpose of these trials were. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:00:33] And just as a cliffhanger, there's a. There's kind of an end to the story about the patriarchal blessing that you've shared that you ended up sharing on. On Mormonism Live.

Martine Smith [01:00:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:00:44] But that. That now makes you look back and wonder whether it was as special as you thought it was at the time. But we'll save that as a cliffhanger for. Okay, okay, okay. So you get your pedrial blessing.

Martine Smith [01:00:57] So. Okay.

Early Troubles in the Church and Martine's Path to BYU

John Dehlin [01:01:00] And was Salt Lake like Dorothy going to Oz? Did it feel magical and.

Martine Smith [01:01:06] Yeah. Yeah, it did. I mean, it was big. The streets are wide. They're not paved with gold, but they are so wide, so clean drinking fountains. ZCMI having a burger at Dee's on. On North Temple with the clown. I just found a slide last week. See that? You remember when Dee's was not the Dee's restaurants of today, but these hamburgers. Anyway. Yeah. Byu, you know, this guy was. Was at byu and I had. We had had, like, within a couple of months after we were baptized, we had exchange student, a gal from Vegas who had completed high school and came to Belgium as an exchange student for a year. It didn't quite work out with the family in our branch. She was lds it didn't quite work out with that family, so she only stayed a couple months. But she and I really struck a friendship. And so she lived on University Avenue in a really great, nice like brand new apartment. Just, it was. Seemed just so beautiful to me. And so, you know, it was fun. I went, you know, I walked the campus and I found some pictures. I mean, you know, I had. I didn't dress immodestly at all, but there was no big deal of wearing something sleeveless back in those days. So I have pictures of myself with like this little, you know, this little sleeveless sweater. Basically, it's not even a tank top. So anyway, nobody made a fuss. Nobody. Short skirts were one thing, but sleeveless was not. Or pants. At church, like in the fall, the first, the year we were baptized, I had a really dressy pantsuit that I wore on a Sunday because it was cold. And one of the girls a little older than me took me aside and said, we don't wear pants to church. And I just didn't have that many dresses either. So anyway, we had to make Dr.

Margi Dehlin [01:03:06] Interesting. Yeah.

Martine Smith [01:03:08] So my sister leaves on her mission and I'm going to make this fairly short, but it's like one of several incidents that happened over the course of my time in the church. So the week before we were baptized, a new branch president was installed with new counselors. He was a convert of three years, I think, had gone to the temple with his wife and he was replacing a man who had just been called as a mission president in another French speaking country in Europe. And I won't mention names today because those people are still alive. The man who was called as branch president had been the first counselor in that branch presidency. Within about a year, something happened. The news was broken that the branch president had just been excommunicated by the mission president. Long story short, two reasons. He was embezzling tithing funds and fast offering funds and had committed adultery. Okay, this is going to be complicated. He had an affair with his second counselor's wife. His wife had an affair with the first counselor and the second counselor had an affair with a non member.

John Dehlin [01:04:30] Oh my goodness.

Stuart Smith [01:04:32] Wow.

John Dehlin [01:04:34] Like there's an impression that today in 2023 that like things have gotten crazy, but that sounds crazy.

Martine Smith [01:04:41] Yeah, you know, I mean, it certainly hit, you know, it hit the ward, the branch pretty hard. We did lose few members over it. Certainly the parties involved. We lost definitely actually not the second counselor. He hung on with the gal with whom he had an affair. They were married eventually and she Joined the church and they stayed in for a number of years. They had three kids that at least when they were young, they were raised in the church. But that's actually when I found out about polygamy, because things were teetering. So we had sacrament. You had Sunday school in the morning, you came back in the evening for sacrament meeting. I'm going to guess it was at 5. You know, sacrament meeting was 90 minutes, 5 to 6, 30. And I remember during those winter hours when it gets dark really early, I remember we would walk out of the chapel and there was a group of people there waiting for us to talk to us. And those were members of the reorganized church from the only unit I think they had in Belgium at the time, or even maybe today, that was in Brussels. So they would travel, they would take the train from Brussels and arrive so that they could talk to us about everything that was wrong with the Mormon Church. And that's when I found out about polygamy. They are the ones who disclosed polygamy. I probably denied it. And then I was probably given the answer by older members or missionaries that, you know, the standard responses, which are, there were more women than men. Those were hard times. There were lots of widows, and the men just married the women to take care of them. Same thing in the early days of Utah. You know, there were more women than men. And, you know, for a long time, that thing flies until you start you study history.

John Dehlin [01:06:52] Yeah. So were you initially disturbed when you learned?

Martine Smith [01:06:56] I'm sure I was. You know, I'm sure I was. I have to say, also when we encountered the missionaries, I never heard of the Mormon Church. And yet they had the. The meeting house we were in was the second one that the church had built. So there had been one previously. There had been two, three meeting houses. My city was really the first one that took as far as the church Liege was. And so there was a unit a few, you know, a few miles outside of Liege that had its own chapel. John Browning, the gun designer, paid for that one, actually built it and paid for it. That was all three of those meeting houses were built in the 1930s. That's the only one that was paid for so quickly. But years later, like when I reconnected with my dad one time, you know, my dad was an atheist, so he wasn't thrilled when we joined the church. But to say the least. But he said something. Apparently John Browning's antics were quite well known around Liege, as was he an active believing Mormon. He built the chapel, but, you know, apparently he also did stuff on his own time, so, you know, baptized at some point. Oh, I think he was a member. Just, you know, just not exactly following all the rules.

Stuart Smith [01:08:16] The Browning family is from Ogden and. Yeah, he was a member, American member. And.

John Dehlin [01:08:21] Okay.

Stuart Smith [01:08:22] Moved over there.

John Dehlin [01:08:23] Oh.

Stuart Smith [01:08:23] To set up his, you know, gun. Browning automatic rifles. Never heard of those bars. Anyway, he set up his manufacturing center there because of the skilled labor that was available.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:38] Nice.

John Dehlin [01:08:39] Okay.

Martine Smith [01:08:39] Yeah. That area has like, at that time, the most skilled labor in the world. He designed this gun and then he looked for a manufacturer and he found it right outside of the Asian. That's. That was the first chapel that was built because of that. Okay, okay.

Stuart Smith [01:09:00] All right.

John Dehlin [01:09:00] So you had to deal with polygamy.

Martine Smith [01:09:02] Polygamy.

John Dehlin [01:09:03] The churches apologetic responses at the time. Satisfied?

Martine Smith [01:09:07] You sure? Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:09:09] And then you had to deal with bishopric gone wild.

Martine Smith [01:09:13] And I mean, the branch, you know, the branch was a mess for a while. My sister was on her mission. Suddenly, you know, the. The elders quorum was supposed to help support her like 50%. The other 50% was coming from an American member who had baptized sister missionary who taught us. And so the payments stopped coming from the branch because the branch president was embezzling. So my sister had a few months that were time that was hard. But then the American member picked up the slack and covered the rest of her mission. Okay. So In June of 1973, when I had come back, I was still in high school, obviously when I came back from having attended General Conference in 71. So I determined that after I graduated from high school, I would come back. So I did. I came back with a visitor's visa, a family to host me. There was a sister missionary in Tooele that was in Liege at the time that I left. She said, you know, my family does this all the time. You know, for my brothers, you know, who served missions in other countries, they've always taken in immigrants from those countries. So I came in late June and stayed with a couple of families for a few weeks. I mean, obviously my money was running out. And you know, one of those moments in late July, like I have $10 left and the family gets a phone call for me. And it is that very first missionary that we had encountered that befriended my sister, saying, hey, there's a family that used to live on our circle. So that's in Olympus Cove. There's a family that used to live on our circle. They have five kids. The youngest are two and a half year old twin boys. They had some issues when they were born. Spent a lot of time in the hospital. The family has some big medical bills. The mom is an RN and they're looking for a nanny. Are you interested? On the 1st of August, I moved in with that family who lived actually by Skyline High School. By that time I was with them for four months. Five. Five months, I guess.

John Dehlin [01:11:26] Let me ask. Just like Dorothy and. And Elphaba had dreams about what they would experience when they went to Oz. What dreams or hopes or expectations did you have in coming to Saltaleke City?

Martine Smith [01:11:43] Well, I was hoping I could attend BYU eventually, but I didn't really know how that was going to happen when I started working for that family. The wife was from East Hollywood, West Hollywood, whatever it is down there, Southern California. And we went down for a few days to visit her mom. And I took the opportunity to take a bus up to Santa Barbara where the man and his wife who had supported my sister on her mission, lived. They had invited me and while I was there and I said, you know, I was hoping to go to byu. He said, we will pay your tuition. I will pay your tuition. Which at the time was like 200 or $300 a semester. And so they promised, you know, they pledged to do that. And so I put in my application and surprisingly I was admitted. And it was a lot easier back then. Much, much, much easier. And so I was getting, you know, I. I was getting ready to start in January. I was planning on that. In the meantime, I was attending single adult young adult activities in the East Mill Creek Stake area. And so I had, you know, a couple of women who were. That I was friends with. My English wasn't very good. I mean, I wasn't that fluent at all. I had good grammar, but I didn't always have the vocabulary. And so one day in mid October, the planned activity was a hayride at the steak farm in Riverton, which I'm pretty sure has been paved over and is a subdivision now. But we arrived at one of the ward buildings where everybody was together for opening exercises. And, you know, we walked in, I think we were late, and sat down and as we, after the end of opening exercises, you know, we got up to leave and. And this young man stood in front of me and said,

Stuart Smith [01:13:56] bonjour.

Martine Smith [01:13:57] Right? He said, bonjour. And I looked at him and he looked vaguely familiar. But I had been here for three months and I had met so many new people and faces, I couldn't place him. So then he told me I just came home from my mission in Belgium two weeks ago. And so then we had something to talk about. So we arrived to the hayride, I think in separate cars, because you had your own car. So I went with my friends, but we spent the entire evening talking. He had ended his mission not in my ward, but in that one chapel that's now been. In that little branch that's now been torn down. And he had. Just before coming home, he had attended a baptism, and our chapel had a font. So, you know, the whole zone came, because baptisms are a rare thing. So everybody. All of the missionaries show up for support. And my sister had given a talk, and he knew of my family, and he knew I was in the. In Utah. He didn't know where, but he had heard, Martine Dirich has gone to Utah. So then he put two and two together, and he was able. You know, we weren't talking. I wasn't talking on the phone with my family every. Every week. In fact, at that point, I'd been here three months. I probably hadn't talked to my family yet. So, you know, he gave me news at least of, you know, of my sister, who had just given a talk, and we talked about, you know, people he. He knew there and all that. And he had just come home and had signed up for the block semester at byu, taking a calculus class that met twice a week on Wednesday and Fridays. And I had friends in Provo, and I wanted to visit my friends, and he offered me a free ride. So, you know, for a few weeks, every Friday, he would pick me up and he'd go to his class. I'd go visit my friends, and then we'd have a date. He'd take me to the movie. So that's how it started.

John Dehlin [01:16:00] So I'm guessing finding. Was finding an American Mormon boy part of your Mormon dream at that point?

Martine Smith [01:16:08] Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, definitely.

John Dehlin [01:16:11] Okay.

Martine Smith [01:16:12] And, you know, since I'd been here, I had dated a couple of returned missionaries from Belgium already. So, like, he wasn't the first one I'd gone out with.

John Dehlin [01:16:21] But was it. Was there something that might have felt more legitimate to marry an American Mormon boy than a European Mormon boy at the time? Maybe.

Martine Smith [01:16:30] Well, I said there was a really good youth group in the branch, and there was, but there were definitely a lot more girls than there were boys. You know, those were rare. And there wasn't really anyone I was attracted to, even though there was one who was very attracted to me and declared his undying loved ones. So.

John Dehlin [01:16:51] But I would just imagine if you're. If you're trying to, like, be all in an American church, then marry Mary. I mean, marrying someone more at the center of the power, who's native to the culture is going to feel like a more legitimate move. And marrying someone who's a blood descendant of the Joseph Smith family, that's.

Martine Smith [01:17:13] I don't know when he told me that part, but.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:17:18] Older, huh?

Stuart Smith [01:17:20] I'm just kidding.

Martine Smith [01:17:23] Yeah. I mean, marrying when you're all in and you're studying as much as you can, you know, and you're going to everything that's possibly offered in your little corner of the Mormon world, which is pretty small there, you know, you, you want somebody who espouses the same beliefs that you do, you know, in pretty much the same manner as strongly as you do. And marrying an American Mormon missionary just seemed like a solid plan at the time.

John Dehlin [01:17:57] Yeah. Yeah. So let's. Stuart, why don't we just go back and have you tell a little bit about your background, whatever you think is important for the, for the story.

Stuart's Mormon Upbringing and Family Heritage

Stuart Smith [01:18:07] Well, you know, I was born, raised in Salt Lake, born into, you know, devout Mormon family. They were not fanatical. They were just good, down to earth, solid earth LDS members, you know, not fanatical. We didn't, we didn't. Were crazy about it. We just sort of lived our religion, but it wasn't a big deal. You know, I. We moved out to the East Mill Creek area when I was about seven years of age. I attended Skyline High School, graduated from there, decided to go to byu, partly because my brother was already down there, partly because, mainly because they offered me a much better scholarship than the University of Utah. So I had a lot of friends from high school that went, you know, to the U. But I decided to go down there and spent my freshman year down there and then went on a mission. I wasn't sure I was going to serve a mission for a while. I started to have some questions in high school and so forth, and, you know, it was a big commitment and I, I always thought I was going to go on a mission. But then as the time arrived, I started to have second thoughts. And I had met a girl last few months at BYU and we'd started going together and continued to see her through the summer because I was, you know, I was going to turn 19 in August and that would have been the time to, to leave on the mission. And I told her, you know, I'm having, you know, I'm not sure I want to go. And she said, oh, no, oh no, I'm not going to be the reason you don't. I Mean, she had questions about the church too, and she said, I'm not going to be the reason you don't go on a mission, you know, so. Okay. So anyway, decide to go.

John Dehlin [01:20:19] Can I ask a quick question?

Stuart Smith [01:20:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:20:21] What role or part did knowing that you were a blood descendant of Joseph Smith's family have in your identity, in your family's lore, in your upbringing? Any of that or if any. If any?

Stuart Smith [01:20:38] Well, it depends. I mean, I didn't think about it day to day, but occasionally, you know, you would. I would understand that, you know, Joseph Smith Sr. Joseph's father, he was one of 11 children, and he had, among others, a younger brother, 10 years younger than him by the name of John Smith. And that is the line that I came through. He actually visited them, Joseph Smith Sr. Did and talked to them about the Book of Mormon, that his son had received the gold plates from an angel and had translated it. And several of his siblings, this is Joseph Smith Sr. Were influenced by that and eventually joined the church. Including. Including John Smith. Only, Only one of the brothers in the family, Jesse, the oldest, you know, threatened. Threatened to take a. A Hugh. Him down with a broad ax if he ever came to his house and taught such damn nonsense. So there was at least one member of the family who didn't, you know,

John Dehlin [01:21:50] this would have been Joseph Smith's uncle, Correct?

Stuart Smith [01:21:54] Correct. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:21:55] Yeah. He's like, I'm not having any of this.

Stuart Smith [01:21:57] I'm not. I'm not taking any of this. You know, this is crazy.

John Dehlin [01:22:01] But most of his aunts or uncles would have converted, Is that what you're saying?

Stuart Smith [01:22:04] Three or four dudes.

John Dehlin [01:22:05] Okay, okay.

Stuart Smith [01:22:06] And one of them was my ancestor, John. And John Smith. He was the father of one of his sons, George A. Smith. It was George Albert, but he, he went by, you know, his middle initial, George A. Smith. And George A. Was the. Was a young. So his first cousin to Joseph, he very much admired his cousin. He was, I don't know, eight, eight or 10 years younger. And when he finally, you know, converted and decided to join the church, it was a big deal. But eventually, you know, he was on the. On the inside. In fact, he was called to be an apostle at the age of 22.

John Dehlin [01:22:47] George.

Stuart Smith [01:22:48] George. Abby Smith.

John Dehlin [01:22:49] Now, is this not the same George Albert that becomes prophet?

Stuart Smith [01:22:52] No.

John Dehlin [01:22:52] Maybe the George Albert Smith that becomes prophet is named after. Yes, the son of John Smith.

Stuart Smith [01:22:58] George A. Smith is the grandfather of George Albert Smith.

John Dehlin [01:23:02] Got it. So George Albert Smith comes through the same line you do, which is through John Smith, Joseph Smith senior's brother. Is that right?

Stuart Smith [01:23:09] Correct.

John Dehlin [01:23:09] Okay, cool. Nice.

Stuart Smith [01:23:12] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:23:13] Are you a blood descendant of George Albert Smith or not?

Stuart Smith [01:23:16] No, he's my great uncle.

John Dehlin [01:23:17] Okay. Okay.

Stuart Smith [01:23:18] Yeah. All right. So my father comes through, you know, another son.

John Dehlin [01:23:22] So, like, when you're growing up, are you going to, like, Smith family reunions? Are you told by your parents or grandparents you need to be extra righteous because you have the blood of the Smith family in your veins? Any of that stuff or.

Stuart Smith [01:23:33] No, I mean, they didn't really harp on it too much. And I don't think we had that many other than just my aunts and uncles. We really didn't have any extended family reunions that I can remember.

John Dehlin [01:23:47] Okay. So not a lot of pressure or even identity associated with being a Smith in your upbringing?

Stuart Smith [01:23:56] In my upbringing, correct.

Martine Smith [01:23:58] Okay.

Stuart Smith [01:23:58] There were basically two Smith lines that came west with Brigham. There was the line from Hiram Smith. Right.

John Dehlin [01:24:09] And that's the Joseph Fielding Smith, Joseph F. Smith line.

Stuart Smith [01:24:11] That's the Joseph F. Smith. The Joseph Fielding Smith. The Melvin or Russell M. Ballard.

John Dehlin [01:24:18] Melvin. Melvin Ballard.

Stuart Smith [01:24:20] Melvin Ballard and Russell M. Ballard, who are descendants of that line.

John Dehlin [01:24:24] Right. Okay. And then the other line is. The other line is your.

Stuart Smith [01:24:28] The other line is the John Smith line.

John Dehlin [01:24:30] Got it.

Stuart Smith [01:24:31] And yeah.

John Dehlin [01:24:33] Because Emma. And you know, they didn't. They didn't come. Martine wants to jump in.

Martine Smith [01:24:39] Yeah. Because you're leaving out the fact that your father was very close to Uncle George. George Albert Smith.

Stuart Smith [01:24:46] Yes. My father was close to his uncle because his father had died young and my father was caring for his mother. He was, I think, 17 or 18 at the time. And George Albert Smith, who was by then, you know, a member of the quorum of the 12, was a senior member by then anyway. He. He helped out a lot and supported them and helped help them and that kind of thing. And so my father left and served a mission in the southern states. He left Salt Lake, Utah, two or three weeks before the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. And so he spent, you know, two years down there. And President Smith, who was, I think, the president of the quorum of the 12 at that time, what made a mission trip down to the southern states. He asked if he could spend a little time with his nephew, which is my father. And my. My father ended up, you know, being his driver during the mission trip and that kind of thing. So they were relatively close. Okay. You know, he. He died in 1951, the year before I was born. So I never knew George Albert Smith.

John Dehlin [01:26:14] Okay. Personally, it sounds pretty relaxed. It sounds like you didn't have an intensely orthodox Mormon upbringing.

Stuart Smith [01:26:24] I had a general, good Mormon upbringing. It wasn't, it wasn't intense. It wasn't forced. It wasn't. It was just. It was just normal and natural to me. There is a story that, oh, when they were trying to acquire church, was trying to acquire the Joseph Smith property, the house where he was born and so forth, that they opted to send. I think this was President Joseph S. Smith opted to send George here in Vermont. Yeah, I think so. George Albert Smith back there to make an offer to the owner and, and see if they could purchase and acquire that property. And he told George Albert, you know, your branch of the Smith family is the friendly branch. That's why I'm sending you. So the, the Fielding Smith, I mean, they were much more intense. They were much more probably controversial.

John Dehlin [01:27:33] In other words, sending someone from Hyrum Smith's downline, including the Ballards and the Fielding Smith, they might have been more antagonistic and less amicable in negotiations with the property owners. Is that what you're saying?

Stuart Smith [01:27:45] That's what I'm saying.

Martine Smith [01:27:47] The rest of the quote is if we send one from our side or something like that, we'll just alienate them.

John Dehlin [01:27:55] I mean, there's some introspection there, some insight, some self awareness. Yeah, okay, that's. That's a good story.

Stuart Smith [01:28:03] Okay, so anyway, I had a good childhood. You know, it was mostly a happy childhood and grew up in the church. And yet even then, you know, when you reach a certain age, you start to wonder and you start to have thoughts about what the rest of your life is going to be and what you want to do and do you really want to spend, you know, two years of it when you're looking for, to get an education beyond about your life? So. But anyway, that's what I. That's what I did. And I got a call to serve in the France Belgium mission, which made the. The girl I was going with at the time very happy because she was a English major and a French minor. So I thought that was a good deal. Anyway, so I get out into the mission and I don't know, about halfway through or so I did get kind of a Dear John letter. You know, she had met someone else, someone in the theater department, believe it or not. And so anyway, at that time, then I really could devote myself fully to the mission and got involved in it. And as Martine said, my last assignment, the last city, I was district leader in a small town that was near Liege, different branch. I had seen Martine once or Twice at some zone activities and things like that, but we had never met. But I will say it was common knowledge among the missionaries when I was there that Liege branch, which was the largest in the mission, also had the best looking girls in the mission. And every missionary wanted a transfer to Liege at some point or another.

John Dehlin [01:30:06] And what percentage of that was Martine and or her sister versus lots of other people?

Stuart Smith [01:30:11] Oh, there were a handful, but I think, I think Martine was clearly head and shoulders.

Martine Smith [01:30:17] He's biased.

Stuart Smith [01:30:18] So anyway, you know, I got. My last transfer was to Sarang, which was this, you know. Oh, darn. It's not Liege, but it's, you know, it's close. It was sort of the armpit of the mission and Liege was. Anyway.

Stuart's Mission and Meeting Martine

John Dehlin [01:30:35] So you, did you ever get to know Martine while you were a missionary?

Stuart Smith [01:30:40] No. We saw, I think I saw her on one or two occasions when there was a zone activity. In fact, we took a, a bus one time up to Brussels for I think was the mission volleyball tournament or something like that, you know, for the youth. And there may have been one other occasion.

John Dehlin [01:30:58] And what did the spirit tell you when you saw her? Stuart? I'm being a little silly, but the

Stuart Smith [01:31:04] spirit told me, geez, he's kind of cute. That's basically what. But I didn't speak to her. And we didn't, you know, nobody.

Martine Smith [01:31:12] No, we'd never spoken to each other.

John Dehlin [01:31:13] I'm not questioning that.

Stuart Smith [01:31:15] Yeah.

Martine Smith [01:31:15] Oh, that's.

Stuart Smith [01:31:16] In fact, she'll tell you that because I don't talk very much or I'm fairly introverted. She and my junior companion at that time, who was just a greenie, you know, he was, he was there talking all the time. And so she asked someone, I guess after we got off the bus and when we were coming back and you

Martine Smith [01:31:38] asked, he asked his own leader. I said, who's the senior companion in that companionship? And he pointed to Stuart. And I was really surprised because Stuart hadn't said a word that I could see. And his junior companion was just non stop, you know, seemed much more in charge of things.

John Dehlin [01:31:57] So I guess I should ask what the spirit said to you.

Martine Smith [01:31:59] Martine, you know, he was, I, I honestly, he knows that I had no idea. And when I moved to the East Mill Creek stake, they used to print a really nice, you know, directory. And at the end of each ward, so this, the end of each ward, they listed all their missionaries. And you know, I thumbed through it to see if there was anybody I knew. And there was a Sister Jansen and I knew Her. And then there was an Elder, I don't know what. And an Elder Smith. Well, Elder Smith was pretty generic, you know, I mean, the first name was in there, but I didn't know anybody's first name, so I had no idea it was him until he introduced himself at the.

Stuart Smith [01:32:44] So I served a mission between 1971. 73, and I came home right around the beginning of October of 1973.

John Dehlin [01:32:54] And it sounds like Vietnam time.

Stuart Smith [01:32:58] It was. And. And that's another story. But I had by then, just a few months before the Selective Service Law had expired. And by then, Congress was in no mood to. To reauthorize the draft.

John Dehlin [01:33:17] Okay, so you met your mission. Did your mission help you miss the draft?

Stuart Smith [01:33:21] It did, because they had started a lottery system, and my cohort my year, they drew those numbers. I drew a pretty low number. In fact, it was 11. So that was the day of the year your birthday was. Whatever. They, you know, was a random drawing, but 11 was guaranteed to get called up.

John Dehlin [01:33:45] Oh, wow.

Stuart Smith [01:33:48] But you could, you know, you could get a deferment to serve a mission. You got what was called a. A ministerial deferment. But as soon as you came home, that deferment was over.

Martine Smith [01:34:02] And

Stuart Smith [01:34:04] the student. The college student deferment, I had before that you had to. To maintain that you had to attend college so many hours, and you had to do it consecutively. If you took a break, you lost the deferment. And they had reached the point where they decided to do away with the college student deferment because, you know, it meant a lot of working class guys who didn't have the opportunity to get that kind of deferment were being drafted in, and it eventually became politically more difficult to do that. And so they. They eliminated that. So I knew when I went on my mission that I was giving up a college deferment for the draft. But I also figured that by the time I got back, I knew the Selective Service expired in. In 1973, and I was betting that Congress would not renew it.

John Dehlin [01:35:09] Okay.

Stuart Smith [01:35:09] And they didn't. A lot of my friends, you know, joined up, either ROTC or. Or reserves, whatever. Nobody wanted to go to Vietnam.

John Dehlin [01:35:21] Even Mormon kids.

Stuart Smith [01:35:22] Even Mormon kids. At least by that time. You know, this. The war had been going on a long time.

John Dehlin [01:35:28] Yeah. Mid-60s.

Stuart Smith [01:35:29] And it was.

John Dehlin [01:35:30] For sure.

Stuart Smith [01:35:32] It was. It was. It was a big deal.

John Dehlin [01:35:34] Okay, so you get. So you get home and you guys are able to bump into each other. And I'm curious when and how that happened where Martine's like, Whoa, wait, that's the. That's the. That Elder Smith, right?

Martine Smith [01:35:49] Yeah. I mean, eventually, I guess I put it together when he told me, you know, who he was. So that was mid October, and by early December, he proposed. Yes.

John Dehlin [01:36:03] So we're talking about.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:04] Look at you go.

John Dehlin [01:36:05] So you're talking a couple months, basically.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:08] Yeah.

Martine Smith [01:36:08] Not quite, because I think it was like the first week in December. And he actually never asked me to marry him. He just asked if I would spend eternity with him.

Stuart Smith [01:36:17] Oh.

Martine Smith [01:36:17] And I said yes. So what did you.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:21] Can I ask what you both were. If we were to ask what you were looking for at that point in kind of a partner and what stood out about each other really quickly.

Stuart Smith [01:36:33] Do you want to go first?

Martine Smith [01:36:36] I'm pretty sure I was looking for a solid Mormon boy, obviously a returned missionary. I didn't know any others. That just felt the same way I did about the church, which was strongly, that that was the best way to live. I mean, at that point, I was trying to convert my atheist father in Belgium. So, in fact, that's when things really went south, is when I wrote him a letter about how he needed to repent and join the Mormon Church. And we were dating at that point, and he had to hold me while I was crying because my father's response was not very friendly. Just leave religion out of it. And we were already estranged then anyway. But so, yeah, yeah, that was, you know, wanted many children because that's what I saw around me. That was probably it. I was 19. What did I know? What did any of us know?

John Dehlin [01:37:50] So a righteous priesthood holder that would bear you help you have lots of kids, is that right?

Martine Smith [01:37:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:37:55] Okay, Stuart.

Stuart Smith [01:37:58] Well, so I guess when I. When I got home at the end of September, 1st of October, I was kind of homesick for the mission, you know, I mean, I learned to love the people there. I learned. Loved working there and meeting them and talking with them and so on. And I really didn't know. I felt kind of homesick, moped around for a couple of weeks, and then I decided, well, I need to kind of reintegrate myself into mainstream society. And there was this activity planned for the young adults of my stake. It was going to be a hayride. And I thought, well, you know, I guess I'll go. I'll go and see, you know, some of my old friends or whatever. And so when I got there and got to the chapel where the opening exercises were before, you know, everybody was meeting there. And then from there we're going to drive to the riverton And I realized Martine had come in with some friends, some girlfriends, and I thought, oh, yeah. I remember I had heard that she had come over to the United States about three months before I was released, something like that. Oh, yeah. Oh, my gosh, she's here. What's she doing here? How can this be? You know? So I just figured, well, I'll go up and say hi, you know, and introduce myself and whatever, and just. And because I had just seen her sister maybe, you know, two weeks before, I thought I'd, you know, tell her that and let her know. And one day or another, we just, you know, we spent the evening together on the hayride, and, you know, one thing led to another. As far as what I was looking for, A couple of things. I knew that, you know, she was a convert, and she was obviously very much into the church. I thought she was a strong convert, you know, based on my experience. I also knew that she was very smart. She was a better English speaker, even though she hadn't been speaking at that long. She could speak English better than any other French speaker, native French speaker that I had met and knew. So I knew she was sharp and I knew, you know, she was very obviously very attractive. And so, you know, the more I. The more I got to know her, the better I got to know. As we. Our relationship developed, the more I realized that, you know, she would make a good companion.

John Dehlin [01:40:54] Well, it's a match made in Mormon heaven. Mormon. Belgian. Belgian, Mormon heaven.

Engagement, Marriage, and Temple Experience

Martine Smith [01:41:00] Okay, so January. Well, we get engaged, like, right after Christmas, I should say that Gives me my ring. We go out to dinner. So it's official. We choose. So we had a short courtship, but a long engagement, especially by BYU standards. He is studying to be a chemical engineer. He's very rational in thinking. And so we are not going to get married in April, which is what most Bru couples would do. We are going to wait until the end of the summer so he can go home, live at home with his parents, get a job and save all of his money. He already has some savings. He has a full tuition and books scholarship, but, you know, still need money to live. So. So we set a late August wedding date in December. I had stopped by the language training mission on. I think we went to a sacrament meeting there. You could do that back then on a Sunday, obviously. And so I talked to the zone leader and I asked because somebody was going to pay my tuition, but I still needed housing and I needed food, so I needed a job. So I. I tried to apply for a Teaching position, teaching French to missionaries. And I was turned down.

John Dehlin [01:42:25] So I was gonna say you weren't a returned missionary, right?

Martine Smith [01:42:28] No. But that didn't matter back then.

Stuart Smith [01:42:30] Okay.

Martine Smith [01:42:31] Much less strict than it, you know, it has been now for decades, but that didn't matter. But something else mattered, John. So. So we start school and you know, it's January. And toward the end of January, I'm crossing the quad by the McKay building and somebody yells my name. Martine. Martine or Sister Smith or Sister Derek, I don't remember. And it was the zone leader for the French zone. And the first thing he says to me is, I heard you're engaged. I said, yes, I am. And he said, do you still want to teach? I said, yes, I'd love to. I need to. So, yes. So the qualifier was that I was taken because after all, I was only 19, I was the same age as the missionaries. So being engaged gave me a little more authority on them. So I started teaching pretty big district the end of January. And you know, that was, that was a fun experience. It wasn't in the, in the MTC we know now, it was just south of the Wilkinson center in the barracks and the. At night Mengham Hall. But I taught mostly in those old World War II barracks. And that was, you know, I had 10, I think, in that district. And I was teaching in the afternoon, I think. And you know, I still have, I still have mementos. Until not too long ago, I still had sort of a, you know, a loose relationship with, with one of the sister missionaries. So I got to teach two districts and they were going to all, like, some of them were going to Quebec, some of them were going to the French speaking Swiss mission, Paris and Belgium. So there was a, you know, they were going to different areas and got to teach two districts or three before we got married.

John Dehlin [01:44:33] What did it mean as a convert, French speaking convert, to be able to maybe repay a bit of that love or gratitude by teaching future missionaries your native language. What did that mean to you?

Martine Smith [01:44:47] It meant a lot. I really, you know, I really enjoyed it. I enjoyed the one on one when we're testing them and they're, you know, repeating their discussions and, and you get to share your culture and, you know, you get to get them really excited for their mission with, you know, real life stories and you're standing in front of them and, you know, you're fairly new convert. So they're hopeful that they can, you know, they can have some baptisms themselves and, you know, be successful on their. On Their mission.

John Dehlin [01:45:21] So there's such a power differential, number one, when you're a convert, but number two, if you're a convert from a non US country, and then number three, if English is your second language. So, like, I would imagine you. It would feel like a bit of a rebalancing of not power from a sense of, like, I want to be powerful, but, like, hey, I'm not just a taker here. I'm contributing to Zion in some way. I'm. I'm injecting that into your story.

Martine Smith [01:45:47] But, yeah, I mean, you feel like you're. Yes. You know, you're accomplishing something. You're helping the work move forward, literally.

John Dehlin [01:45:55] That's neat. So that's neat.

Martine Smith [01:45:58] That's cool. That was. Yeah, those. Those were. Those were good times with the. The young missionaries.

John Dehlin [01:46:05] Yeah. Okay. So you did that before you got married.

Martine Smith [01:46:09] So I got that. That before I got married. If we want to talk. Okay. There are two events because they.

Stuart Smith [01:46:14] They.

Martine Smith [01:46:16] The birth of children hinges on that. So this is 1973. President Kimball has been president of the church for a few months, you know, since December, since 1974. He's been president of the church since December 1973. And the president Kimball was very big on, you know, get married and have children right away. He by no means was the only one, but he was extremely forceful. He toured the mission when Stuart was missionary. One of the things he said was, when you get home, don't get married too soon after you get home. But what did he say? After two or three months, you should be well on your way. You should either be married or engaged. So while he was saying, don't get married too soon, it was. The message really was. And then, you know, don't. Don't wait to have children. You know, the money will. You'll figure it out. You know, don't worry about it. So I was teaching. So this was summer, you know, this was June before we got two months before we got married. Stuart's living in Salt Lake with his parents, and I'm. I'm in provost still teaching, and it's a Saturday, and I'm having lunch with a couple of the other instructors, and both of them had been married the previous August, and both their wives were giving birth in June. They'd just given birth nine months.

Stuart Smith [01:47:44] Wow.

Martine Smith [01:47:46] And so we're having lunch. And Stuart's sister at the time had. His older sister had just had their sixth child, and they were living with his parents and with him because they were building a house, and it wasn't quite complete. So for several months they lived there. And Stuart had overheard conversations about what a baby costs to have the doctor and the hospital. And he was horrified. There was no way we could afford that. And mind you, it was like $600 total OBGYN and hospital. And I was three days in the hospital, by the way. So he told me that. And yet I have these two instructors I'm with, and they are telling me, you know, they are telling me we shouldn't wait to have children. We shouldn't do anything to curtail the birth of children. And one of them gives me the example of somebody in their BYU ward who, like, they got married. And this is somebody they knew, you know, just from that year. She started the marriage on the pill, and then after six months, stopped the pill so she could get pregnant. And she miscarried. And that was the judgment of God because they had postponed their first pregnancy by six months. So they have me absolutely scared silly. So Sturge shows up later that day, and I'm like, we can't wait. You know, we can't wait. We have to have a baby right away. Something horrible will happen if we wait. So we have this huge fight and he drives back to Salt Lake. He reminded me Saturday that I tried to give my ring back. And he gave it. He refused to take it back because

John Dehlin [01:49:41] what were you feeling? And what was he feeling?

Martine Smith [01:49:44] Well, he was thinking, well, I'll let him speak for himself, obviously. But I mean, what I was feeling was. So I'd been a member for four years. I had imbibed, absorbed everything about large families. You know, I had the example of his sister, like the oldest. They were. They just had had their sixth child. The oldest was just getting baptized. You know, I had stayed with multiple families, well, two or three at least, that have five children or more, you know, very close together. So I was. And I, you know, I had. I was hearing President Kimball and byu, everybody around you, you was getting married and having babies right away. So, you know, and I thought we'd surely be punished. And that will come back in the conversation.

John Dehlin [01:50:32] So you, you were the one as a convert. Let's get married and have babies. Immediately to the line.

Martine Smith [01:50:37] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:50:38] All right.

Martine Smith [01:50:39] Follow the. Follow the prophet. Even though we didn't use that line back then.

John Dehlin [01:50:43] But okay, all right, Stuart, you're the, you're the. You're the sixth generation Mormon.

Stuart Smith [01:50:50] Yeah. And I'm the guy who's gonna have to pay for this.

John Dehlin [01:50:52] So what do you mean by that? What do you mean by that?

Stuart Smith [01:50:55] I mean, I have to earn the money, right?

John Dehlin [01:50:58] Yeah, yeah.

Stuart Smith [01:50:59] I mean that's my job. So you know, I'm thinking we had already had, I think earlier, you know, some discussion she had mentioned to me. I don't know how serious she was, but I think she was serious. But you know, she, she like wanted a dozen kids, you know, she thought, you know, she had. What does she know? She hadn't had a child yet. And I'm thinking, you know, three or four, you know, sounds rational to me. Okay. I mean, if anything, I'm a linear thinker, John and I. Boom, boom, boom. So this is what we have to do and we have to be prepared for it and so on. And so I was not prepared. I wanted to finish my educate, get a degree and get a job to support a family. That was my responsibility.

John Dehlin [01:51:54] What about what the prophets were saying? How did you reconcile that?

Stuart Smith [01:51:59] Well, I, I thought, you know, that's fine and dandy, I guess that's okay. And we should have a family, we should have children. But they're not paying for it. I am. So I need to be prepared to do that. And I'm not, you know, I'm not the kind of person who just has enough faith to walk off the end of the plank, you know, and think everything's going to be fine. So, so we had to come to terms, I guess, with that.

John Dehlin [01:52:30] It sounds like you had a more pragmatic approach to the gospel than the convert did.

Martine Smith [01:52:35] Oh yeah, yeah. And actually I just remembered something. When he first proposed, he wanted to wait two years to get married. I forgot that. It just came back to me. Yes. We were going to wait two years to get married until he was like done with school pretty much. So. Yes.

Stuart Smith [01:52:53] Well, I had only, I was only had completed one year of school of university studies and I had a four or five year degree I needed to get. So I wanted to be at least, you know, within a year, a year and a half of graduation before we took on those responsibilities.

Margi Dehlin [01:53:10] What's interesting is there's space enough in your thinking for you to have a separate opinion or value, separate values and a separate voice. That's what's, that's really interesting to me about that.

Stuart Smith [01:53:25] Yeah, Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:53:28] I mean what's intuitive might be that it would be the sixth generation descendant of the Smith family bloodline Mormon that would be super gung ho and it would be the European convert that would be like, ah, liberal or more, you know, less conditioned. But that's of course that's not necessarily true. Sometimes the Convert is the more orthodox trying to do it. All right. Trying to make up for the fact that they aren't that descendant. Almost the scrupulosity of a new convert versus, like, the Utah Mormon laid back. Oh, we don't. We don't take those profits too seriously here in Utah. We know. I grew up with Uncle George. I know he's got feet of clay, you know what I'm saying? That's something that an outsider might not understand.

Martine Smith [01:54:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:54:14] That things might be a little bit different, differently in terms of intense levels.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:18] Yeah.

Martine Smith [01:54:19] Oh, definitely. Yeah. Well, but a lot of times, yeah, it is the convert that's just, you know, you're learning all these things and you want to make sure that you're doing. You're doing it right.

John Dehlin [01:54:29] Yeah.

Martine Smith [01:54:29] So I guess the next thing I would say, and I think I can keep it pretty short, is the temple.

John Dehlin [01:54:34] I don't want to slow down there because I know enough about you to know that garments have been a really important part of your story.

Martine Smith [01:54:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:54:41] And I'm sure the temple was, too. So part of the reason why I want to push the childbearing stuff and the fatalities to the next episode is because I don't want to rush this part only because I know. Unless you think it's not that important. Important My sense of my beast. So take as much time as is important for your story later.

Martine Smith [01:54:59] All right. So the only experience I have with the temple is that my sister was in doubt before her mission in the Swiss temple. Interestingly, she traveled alone with that branch president who would be excommunicated later. But apparently he was not inappropriate. So we had only found out about garments like, you know, we'd been members a year before. We found out from one of the members who had not gone but was aware. And so he told us a little bit about garments, and we asked the sister missionaries. I assumed that it was something like, you know, like back then you wore. Women wore slips under their dresses, that it was something you put on in the morning and you removed at night, you know. So my sister went to the temple, and when she came back, I was at youth conference at the local university. So she came to see me. And I remember she sat down and I, like, I lifted her skirt, you know, and there were one piece garments, you know, knee mark on the knee, on the right knee. And I said, so? And she says, it's okay, she said, because they explained to you what it is, why it is. She said, it's okay. And my sister was very believing and still is to this day, and I respect that. So I had that experience with her.

John Dehlin [01:56:17] Now, when you say one piece at the time, she was wearing a top that was connected to the bottom.

Martine Smith [01:56:23] Right.

John Dehlin [01:56:23] This would be one kind of like underwear that's like a. How do you describe it? Like a onesie.

Martine Smith [01:56:30] Like a onesie with a flap in the, in the back.

Stuart Smith [01:56:33] Yeah, it's like, it's like old style cowboy underwear, except for women.

Martine Smith [01:56:37] It was just, you know, we had lace around the neck and things like that.

John Dehlin [01:56:41] You know, in 20, 23 or even the past couple decades, they split the top and the bottom and it's like a T shirt.

Martine Smith [01:56:47] 40 years ago.

John Dehlin [01:56:48] 40 years ago, yeah. You're a scholar of Mormon garments, Martine. But at some point they split them, but your sister was still wearing the onesie and so did I. Oh, wow. The onesie for adults with the flap in the back.

Martine Smith [01:57:03] So I had that from her and then she went on her mission and then she came back from her mission. So there were a few months there after she came back in like February of 73. And then I left in June. So we were sharing a bedroom and, you know, I could see her in her garments. She didn't talk much about it. And then my mother, she insisted that my mother go to the temple. So in May, after, after my sister came back from her mission in May, we all went to Switzerland. Now, we couldn't be sealed because my father was not a member. And, you know, he wasn't. He had passed away.

John Dehlin [01:57:33] That was the closest temple.

Martine Smith [01:57:34] That was the closest temple.

John Dehlin [01:57:35] Yeah.

Martine Smith [01:57:36] Back then it was like a seven hour drive. It was pretty. So. And we went with some other members. So then I'm, you know, I'm ready. I'm, you know, I'm buying the books now. There are no books on garments, but, you know, Hubie Brown has a book on marriage. You know, we're, we're reading those together on the, on the green grass of the BYU campus. You know, books on marriage and all of that. And so my in laws scheduled my endowment at the Ogden the Ocean Ogden Temple. And so we go on the Saturday, like three days, three days before our wedding. Our wedding, which is on your birthday, August 20th. So on the 17th we go and today, and I don't know how long it's been that way, but I would not have gone through the temple. I would not receive. I would not have received my own endowment. In English, which is not my native language today, they would make sure that I receive it in my native language. But that wasn't a rule back then. And so I went through the temple in English. So my mother is here for the wedding. At the time, I don't know that she has. She is smoking again and has been for a long time. So she lied during her interview and I'm not blaming her, but she lied because she didn't want to embarrass me me with my in laws by having to say that she couldn't get a recommend to go to the temple because my in laws believe she's a faithful Mormon too. So. And I wouldn't find out about that until years later. But so, you know, we drive up to, to Ogden. Of course, I have been told zilch. I know nothing. I know nothing. You know, my mother in law took me to buy my temple clothes. My. To buy garments and. Yeah, and the ceremonial robes, you know, and I'm looking at this green apron and I'm looking at. I say, and I ask her, what is this? And she's of that generation that you don't talk about it. So she says, you'll find out. They'll tell you. So I'm there with my packet and you have heard this, John a million times. You're on the front row because you're going for yourself and you've got your escort next to you. In my case, it's my mother in law because my mom is there, but she's only done like two sessions before in the Swiss temple. She doesn't speak English, so she. And there are no headphones back then. So she's totally out for me. And I have no idea that my mother doesn't really know what's going on, you know, because I'm just focused on my own experience. And I'm totally confused. But I look to the other side and Stuart is there and his dad and brother in law. And on my side, you know, my future mother in law and my sister in law, I think that was it. And they're doing this and they seem okay with it. So like I said, you've heard it a million times before, it must be okay. Of course, before that, I go through the washing and anointing and nobody has told me I'm going to have to strip down to my birthday suit and put on this poncho which is open on both sides. And I'm thinking, wait, I'm gonna be wearing garments. And I've been told I'm gonna have to be really modest. And like now, you know, my clothes are gonna have to be longer and my shoulders will always be Covered. But in the temple, they're telling me to be naked with this little sheet on me. Okay. It's a heavy fabric. That's true.

John Dehlin [02:01:22] Mine was silky.

Martine Smith [02:01:23] Was it. Mine was a real heavy cotton.

John Dehlin [02:01:28] But you're still totally exposed on the side.

Martine Smith [02:01:30] Totally. You know, until you. Until you. Well, now they don't do it that way anymore. But, you know, until you learn to, at least while you're walking around, you know, tuck the flaps and. And bring the back forward. But you don't know that because you pass people. You pass people. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:01:46] Who are fully dressed and they see that open on the sides. You're fully naked. It's really awkward. Weird.

Martine Smith [02:01:52] It was really awkward. Thank goodness they did away with it. So, you know, so I go through that and of course, they put the garment on you and, you know, tell you.

John Dehlin [02:02:00] And there's the oil and.

Martine Smith [02:02:02] The oil. Yeah, the washing and the anointing, and you don't really know what's going on. You don't really hear anything. And then, you know, have the endowment and, like I said, think, okay, they're doing this, and they're like lifetime members of the church, and it must be okay. Even though it seems really weird to me.

John Dehlin [02:02:22] Did the feminist stuff at all even register with you? Okay. You're making none of it.

Martine Smith [02:02:28] Okay, I'm making. Yeah. Over my head. Zero, zilch.

Margi Dehlin [02:02:32] I.

John Dehlin [02:02:33] And what about the condemnations? Like, back then, the preacher in the temple would have called the. You know, the great. I don't know if he called the Catholic Church the great abominable horror, but he would have made some monologue in the temple about other churches being whores and awful. I'm exaggerating.

Stuart Smith [02:02:51] Yeah.

Martine Smith [02:02:51] But that was no different than the discussions. You know, it was just acted out on the stage. But on. On a film in that case.

John Dehlin [02:02:58] Yeah.

Martine Smith [02:02:59] So, yeah, no, all the feminist stuff went over my head. I didn't notice anything.

John Dehlin [02:03:05] What about the penalties? The signs, tokens and penalties?

Martine Smith [02:03:07] Yeah, that was weird. Sure, that was weird.

John Dehlin [02:03:11] So you would have. You would have done the penalties for the hand signs?

Martine Smith [02:03:15] Yeah, the hand signs.

John Dehlin [02:03:16] You would kill yourself, basically, Right.

Martine Smith [02:03:19] Being willing to kill yourself rather than reveal these signs that the penalty God wants.

Margi Dehlin [02:03:28] Did you hold kind of that impression of that experience just kind of to yourself, like you didn't or did you tell any.

Martine Smith [02:03:35] No, no. Yeah. I just talked to Stuart about it. We never. We never talked about it.

John Dehlin [02:03:40] But you felt what. When you were doing the. The science tokens and penalties, you felt what?

Martine Smith [02:03:49] I honest answer is I don't remember Other than the entire experience was weird.

John Dehlin [02:03:55] Okay.

Martine Smith [02:03:55] Okay. And I just had to keep telling myself, they're doing it. It can't be that weird. I. I'll just figure it out eventually.

John Dehlin [02:04:01] Yeah, weird. But, like, all these people I love and respect are. Seem to be okay with it, so. Yeah, must be me. But I'm gonna be okay with it.

Martine Smith [02:04:09] And by then, I knew that, like, Uncle George. George Albert Smith was his great uncle. You know, I knew that family history, and I thought, you know, these are solid church members and they're doing this. And my sister had been okay with it also. You know, I had that. So when I. Like, when I got the garment, I was very proud to pull it down to my knee, mind you. You know, I was very. I. I wasn't put off by the garment originally.

Stuart Smith [02:04:37] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:04:38] You know.

Martine Smith [02:04:38] Yes, it was one piece, and it was. You know, it was a little awkward. You had to learn to deal with it, you know, to use a bathroom and things like that.

Stuart Smith [02:04:44] Yeah.

Martine Smith [02:04:45] I remember my mother telling me, you're not supposed. My. My mother didn't know anything. She was converted. You know, my mother attended less than we did. She worked very, very hard at her job. It was very physical. And she was always feeding the missionaries. She loved cooking, and that was part of her job, too. She was in the school cafeteria, and they ate marvelous stuff because my mom's a great cook. And so my mom wasn't at church as much as we were. She was not at those firesides on Sunday night. So she really knew a lot less. And she'd only gone to the temple, like, a year before and just, like, done a couple sessions. But I know before we. You know, just before we got married, she said, well, you know, you're not supposed to take it off ever. Like, not for sex. And I said, mom, I'm pretty sure that's wrong.

John Dehlin [02:05:27] So I remember hearing that growing up. Yeah. With. For sex or even for the shower, you got the old. Yeah, you put it around your ankles or around your wrist.

Martine Smith [02:05:36] Yeah. But you never let it off and wash one half and. Oh, wow. I mean, we. I never thought of doing that, and I didn't know anybody who did, but I heard of people.

John Dehlin [02:05:45] We were all taught that.

Martine Smith [02:05:46] You know, my grandmother did that. So. So. But then I am intrigued with the temple. So we're back at byu, you know, after the wedding, little honeymoon up in Spokane, Washington, which was hosting the world's Fair, Glacier national park for a couple of days, and Yellowstone. So then we get back and, you know, I really resume my Job at byu. I'm not going back to school because now I can't afford. We can't afford tuition for me. But I start teaching again. And we live in the tree streets in Provo on Ash Avenue. And I am determined to figure out this temple thing. And I am determined that nobody's going to help me at the veil. I am going to memorize that thing. So on Saturday morning, while he's studying, I get up early and I go to the Provo Temple. Temple. And six weeks after I was in doubt, I had the entire veil ceremony memorized in a foreign language, including the last part. No one ever helped me after that. I know I wasn't going to have any of that where I was waiting for somebody to whisper in my ear. Nope. So. But then I also, you know, I asked to talk to the member of the temple presidency and I asked, you know, what are Peter, James and John doing there? And, you know, well, nobody has good answer for that. You know, there's no. I mean, you can think of it as there's no time or space in eternity. So that's. So I don't really have an answer for that. And it would be a while before I got a chance to sit down with my sister. My sister attended for several years. She attended the Swiss temple and the temple president there, Emo von Luschin, I think was his name was German. And he ran. He ran that temple like the German army. And, you know, warned. He had little sessions, you know, like in the chapel, little instruction sessions before each session. And he would go through the endowment and explain he had totally made it up, because I've never seen that anywhere else, what the science meant, what the, you know, the arm to the square would mean or the hand in cupping shape, what symbolism it would have.

John Dehlin [02:08:04] He had his own interpretation.

Martine Smith [02:08:06] He had his own interpretation, but he taught it to, you know, now they tell you find your own interpretation. But so my sister, that really helped. I think my sister's experience that helped her really love the temple because she thought about receiving blessings with her hand in cupping shape and reaching out to God with an articulate to the square. So those things got very meaningful to her. And it was years later, before we were able to sit in a celestial room, I think, in the Salt Lake Temple. And she went through that and explained that to me. You know, we found a little corner and she said, this is what this is. This is what that is. So. So yeah, it was. I mean, I remember like two months after I was married, I remember washing my Robes by hand and then ironing them. And I still have my robes, which, because it was a polyester, I burned a little piece of it, but I still have it. You know, this is the one I was married in. So, yeah, I was. You know, I was totally. I wanted to get it. I wanted to understand. I wanted to. I don't know that I thought of memorizing it at that time, but eventually I pretty much did. I probably could have been a temple worker, because I was all in when it came to the temple. I saw none of the sexism. It would be 10 years before we had lunch with this girlfriend he had as a freshman at a Sunstone symposium. We attended one day his friend. We're still friends with them. We visit them when we travel and they visit us. Brought up the veiling of the faces. It had never offended me. That's how I wasn't there at that time.

John Dehlin [02:09:51] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that just. It just. There's kind of. I mean, obviously your faith journey is going to come into this for both of you. And there's the trope that sometimes believing Mormons want to put on people who doubt the church, that they never really believed, that they were never really committed to begin with, that they wanted to sin. What I found is, for, like, people like me or Margi, we. It wasn't that we cared too little that kind of led to the questions. It was because we cared so much. And it sounds. It sounds like you, Martine, cared a lot about doing everything right and understanding everything. And that probably plays out later in.

Martine Smith [02:10:36] I was recently. I was recently told that that.

John Dehlin [02:10:40] So you were told what?

Martine Smith [02:10:42] That the fruit never really grew in me. And that was very hurtful because.

Stuart Smith [02:10:47] Why?

Martine Smith [02:10:48] Because the fruit did grow in me?

John Dehlin [02:10:52] Yeah, absolutely, it did.

Martine Smith [02:10:55] Yeah, I've heard you say that, yes. Sometimes some of us, yeah, we may have taken things too literally. I was taught by the missionaries to take it literally. I was taught by my fellow members in Belgium to take it literally. Right. So, yes, I did. I took it very seriously.

John Dehlin [02:11:15] Yeah, I could tell that emotionally hits you close to home. Yeah. The idea that.

Martine Smith [02:11:22] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:11:25] Beautiful. Stuart, anything you want to add right, at this juncture before we kind of start wrapping things up or.

Stuart Smith [02:11:32] No, I don't think so. I mean. Okay. Unless there are questions.

John Dehlin [02:11:35] All right, so, Margi, anything you want to ask right before we tie this part up?

Margi Dehlin [02:11:41] I don't think so.

Stuart Smith [02:11:41] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:11:42] That was powerful. All right, Martine, how do you want to. How do you want to end this, this episode? Is that it? Or was there Any final thing you wanted to add before we give a preview for next episode?

Martine Smith [02:11:51] Well, yes, and it is that we were married on the 20th of August and by the end of September I found out I was pregnant.

John Dehlin [02:12:02] So within a month or so you were pregnant?

Martine Smith [02:12:04] Yeah, within three weeks of the wedding date, I got pregnant and I found out two weeks later.

Stuart Smith [02:12:10] She never was very good at math.

Martine Smith [02:12:11] No, I wasn't on the pill. I was going to. We were going to use the natural method. I never should have been trusted with counting the days. Huge fail first. So we can pick it up from there.

Stuart Smith [02:12:27] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:12:28] All right. So that's a cliff.

Stuart Smith [02:12:29] There's.

John Dehlin [02:12:29] There are a few cliffhangers, but. But thanks for joining us for this. Part one of Martine's story. Part two is going to be about some children that they have and experiencing the death of two of their children and how it played into their faith and priesthood blessings and the gospel and just their expectations and their obedience to the commandments to get married quickly and have as many kids as possible. So, so that's going to be a don't miss episode. And then from there we're still going to be talking about your faith journeys. Becoming sunstone Mormons in the 80s and 90s before many, before the Mormon Internet. That's something that I don't even fully. I mean, I understand a little bit of that because I was at BYU during that, some of that time, but that's a cool thing, interesting thing. And then we're going to get to Stuart becoming a bishop as a progressive, less intense Mormon and, and how that affected your relationship, especially as the Mormon Internet starts to really rise and how Martine deals with this, just the Mormon Internet rise with, with and feminism, feminist awakenings even while Stuart is bishop. And then all the other things that come from that, including mixing mixed, navigating, mixed faith marriages, kids or siblings that still believe, etc, So a lot to still come. Yeah.

Martine Smith [02:13:59] Right.

John Dehlin [02:13:59] All right. All right. Well, thanks, Martine and Stuart for this opening sort of to your, your Belgian convert Mormon story. It's been beautiful. Thank you.

Martine Smith [02:14:10] Thanks, John.

John Dehlin [02:14:11] Thanks, Stuart.

Stuart Smith [02:14:12] Thank you, John.

John Dehlin [02:14:13] And thanks, Margi, for being with us today.

Margi Dehlin [02:14:15] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:14:15] All right, so don't go away. Come right back for part two. You're really going to enjoy Martine and Stuart's Mormon story. See you guys on the flip side. Thanks so much, everybody.

Early Marriage and the Birth of Their First Child

Part 2 of 3 · Ep. 1741

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is February 6, 2023, and we are here in part two of our interview with Martine and Stuart Smith. Martine, welcome back.

Martine Smith [00:00:15] Thank you, John.

John Dehlin [00:00:16] You too, Stuart. How you feeling?

Stuart Smith [00:00:18] Good, John, thank you.

John Dehlin [00:00:19] Good. Well, we just finished a really fascinating two and a quarter hours with Martine and Stuart talking about Martine joining the church as a teenager in Belgium in the very early 70s, and her and her sister and her mom all converting to Mormonism as Belgians, and then her sister serving a mission in Martine coming to the United States, meeting Stuart and marrying Stuart and going through the temple and that sort of thing. And that was part one. And we are going to be talking here in part two about something very sensitive, which is about three children that Stuart and Martine had, two of which passed away as infants. And we're going to be talking about and maybe even showing some images that for some who might be sensitive to medical issues, a little bit of a warning that it's. It's kind of some medically sensitive and somewhat disturbing stuff. But it's all going to tie into their Mormon story because back in the 70s, it was all about getting married quickly, having as many babies as you could, and not using birth control. And then when you weave into that the teaching of priesthood blessings and prayer and faith and also of wards and how wards can rally to be helpful or not helpful in. In the situation of something traumatic happening, it's going to be a really important episode that we hope you really all enjoy and value. That's going to be part two, the death of these two infants and how that interacted with their Mormon faith. And then, of course, we'll have a Part 3 about Martine Stewart's faith journey, even including Stuart becoming a Mormon bishop while they were both progressive slash doubting Mormons. So Margi is here as my co host today. Hey, Margi.

Stuart Smith [00:02:11] Hey, babe.

John Dehlin [00:02:12] Thanks for joining. Beautiful. All right, so I think we. Where we left off, you guys had got married in the temple, went through your endowments, got your garments, and you were pregnant within like a month and a half of a month.

Martine Smith [00:02:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:27] Of your wedding. All right.

Martine Smith [00:02:29] First opportunity in my cycle, I was pregnant.

John Dehlin [00:02:33] Okay.

Martine Smith [00:02:33] Let's put it in medical terms.

John Dehlin [00:02:36] And if it's okay, I know we're going to be talking about the church handbook and some general authority quotes. We talked a bit about a fight you guys had had in. In your engagement. Maybe. Can you recap that? Because it kind of flows in let's talk about reproduction and beliefs and, and your marital agreement because it flows into what happens next.

Martine Smith [00:03:01] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:03:01] If you want to retell that or something.

Martine Smith [00:03:03] Yeah. So, yeah. So it's September 1974 and toward the end of the month and I realized that I might be pregnant. So it's pre home pregnancy test day, so you have to go to the doctor and all of that. I am actually at the language training mission finishing up a shift, I think, and I get called to the phone or maybe I called them for the results. Anyway, whichever it was, I get the news that the test was positive. So I am pregnant. So that night we have a ward activity and I get terribly sick after the meal and I'm pretty much sick for the next several months. And it's devastating because I'm angry. I'm angry that I'm pregnant because we had a few months before our marriage had had a huge argument over the timing of children. President Kimball was the president of the church and others obviously had spoken on the topic. You don't put off your families. You don't put them off to get your education. You don't put them off for, you know, material goods for a nicer life or anything like that. You just, you know, you just have faith that the Lord will, well, take care and you go ahead and have, have children. So we had had this huge argument to the point where I tried to give my ring back. I have to say Stuart wrote me a beautiful, I guess we must have talked on the phone that week. He wrote me a beautiful card that I still have about how much he loved me and, and I agreed that we would wait. However, that didn't work out. So when I find out I'm pregnant by then my mind is set that we're not going children right away. So I'm really angry that I'm pregnant. He, on the other hand, is immediately accommodating. It's like, well, it's happened, it's happened. Okay, what's the next step? Well, I have an engineer's brain. Even if I'm not an engineer yet, I believe in taking care of my family. So he goes to the jobs bulletin board in the chemical engineering department and looks for a part time job or anything. So he sees a posting for what was called a co op position at Thiokol west of Brigham City. It's an eight month position compared to anything else around campus. It pays reasonably well because he has some skills. And so we decide to put school on hold for a semester and a summer to Move to. He applies, he goes to interview. I think I went with him. And he gets a position. And so first of January, we are set up in Brigham City. We look for a place to rent. You know, we're trying to save as much money. We know we're going to try to save as much money as we can. So we look at two places and one is like almost $100 a month and the other one is this little cabin looking thing in somebody's yard and it's $65 a month and so we opt for that one. We would later find out in the summer that it was actually had been previously a chicken coop. So that had been made into this little cottage. But there was nothing cute about it. So it was cheap. You know, your phone bill was $5, whatever. So for the, you know, he gets two paychecks a month out of one, we take tithing and we live. And the other one, the entirety of the other one goes into savings every month. So we're just, you know, living like poor church mice. Like so many students. Anyway, at byu.

John Dehlin [00:07:18] But Thy Calls are rocket. Like they make rocket stuff, right, Stuart?

Stuart Smith [00:07:23] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:07:23] Okay. And they did that then.

Stuart Smith [00:07:25] Northrop Gummen is the owner now. Hercules and Thio Call, they, they acquired both of those sites, so. But years ago, Thy Call made the solid rocket boosters for the space shuttle launch system.

John Dehlin [00:07:45] Yeah, I, I lived in Logan. We lived in Logan for a long time and we had neighbors that worked at Thy Call, but they'd have to get on a shuttle bus and go all the way because it's past Brigham City. So you go 30 minutes out of Logan back to Brigham City and then beyond. Right, so it's.

Martine Smith [00:08:01] Right, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:02] So you guys were living Brigham City?

Martine Smith [00:08:03] We lived in Brigham City.

Stuart Smith [00:08:04] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:08:05] Okay.

Martine Smith [00:08:05] So, yeah, so we lived in Brigham City in that little chicken coop. And, you know, things go pretty well. It's a cold winter, whatever. And of course I'm not working, you know, I don't have a job there. I had to give up my, my LTM job in Provo. There's a family in the ward that's going to France that summer. So they asked me if I'll teach them some French. So a couple nights a week I go over to their house and and, you know, teach a little bit of French. And then comes June and my due date is June 19th and I have an OB GYN in Ogden. So I travel down there once a month. And on the 9th of June in the morning, I start getting uncomfortable. And our landlord, who lived right next door to us only has one child, so she's not the best. The most helpful person. And I'm walking around wondering, is this it? This is not it. But eventually, by the time Stuart gets home, or either that or I call him to come home a little early, I said, I think we should go to the hospital. Have me checked. So we do that and go to the hospital, and I'll jump over to about 9, 10 in the evening. So the same day, and I give birth to a baby boy. Back in those days, they didn't exactly. They didn't put the baby, you know, the newborn on your stomach and allow you to bond and all of that. They just whisked them off immediately, you know, wrapped them up and. And so they tell us that they're low. They don't know exactly what's wrong. But he has. He's born with an open sore on his right wrist. So it's red. It's just like. Just like. Like a burn, let's say, you know, but there's no skin. And then on the leg, he has a string of tiny little blisters that sort of like a strand of pearls. They're just really all in a row. They can't really make sense of it. Or there's something else, is that even though he's, you know, he's 10 days early, he has very long fingernails and toenails, which you would expect baby that goes beyond 40 weeks. So they're going to keep him under observation. So they don't bring him to me at first. They're going to keep him under observation for 24 hours. When they bring him, you know, Stuart calls his parents. I call my mother in Belgium and all of that. And when they bring him to me, I was reminiscing on Saturday, and I said I had never taken care of a newborn. I had no experience with children. I know I said I wanted to adopt, or at least half a dozen, but I was one of the younger cousins in my family, so I wasn't around babies, and I didn't know that. One thing that a lot of mothers do is that, like, they unwrap the infant and they make sure they have 10 fingers and 10 toes and make sure everything's okay. I didn't know anything about that, so I didn't do that. And after three days, they decide they don't know where that wound comes from and where the ones on the leg come from, so they send us home. After three days, Stuart's mother comes up from Salt Lake and she stays with us for the weekend. Nathaniel starts getting some little blisters on his bum and I just, not knowing anything, I just asked my, I just tell my mother in law, I said, is that diaper rash? And she says, no, that's not diaper rash. Diaper rash doesn't look like that. So at the end of the weekend, on Sunday she goes home and on Monday I am for the first time alone with my newborn who's a week old by then. And you know, you give sponge baths those first 10 days or whatever until the umbilical cord falls off. Sort of forgotten about that. But we've got this little bathroom with a really low ceiling and you know, it's really awkward, there's only a tub and. But I have, I have a little table and so I place him on the table and I unwrap him and I'm getting ready to bathe him. And you know how infants especially have very jerky movements? They don't control their arms and legs and so they have very jerky movements. So as I've got him on the table, suddenly he rubs one heel against his other leg and the skin rips right off and it's red and raw and it's bleeding and I'm in sheer panic. I've never seen that. No idea what's happening. We don't have a pediatrician in Brigham City because we're only going to be there for a while and I can take, you know, the plan was we're going to go use my mother in law's pediatrician in Salt Lake for six week checkup. So I don't have, I don't have anybody except the stake president is a pediatrician in town. I may have gone to the neighbor, I don't know, but I drive him to the doctor, I call and I ask to bring him in. It's all new by then. I've been in the US for two years, but a lot of that is still. I haven't dealt with doctors, I haven't dealt with pediatricians. It's June, it's hot outside, but it's freezing cold in the pediatrician's office and exam room when I'm waiting and I've got this naked baby that's crying. So after I believe it was a couple hours. After a couple hours, the pediatrician finally comes into the room and he takes one look at Nathaniel and he says, oh, that's epidermolysis bullosa. It's genetic. He'll never really grow out of it. Just take the best care of him, you can. By the way, there is a child in Brigham City with the same condition. He is a nephew of elder Boyd K. Packer. He is a Packer at that time, I think he's either 12 or 16, I can't remember. But this doctor, he was our stake president, but I don't remember his name. But anyway, had taken care of him. So I take him home. I mean, there's like no instruction on bandages, no instruction on how to handle him, nothing.

John Dehlin [00:15:34] This is pre Internet.

Martine Smith [00:15:36] This is.

John Dehlin [00:15:36] Yeah, yeah.

Martine Smith [00:15:38] This is prehistory. I mean, I didn't read anything about epidermolysis bullosa, which we'll use the term EB for short. I didn't read anything about it until we got back to byu. And after. After several months when I was able to go to the library and look up, you know, whatever was available.

John Dehlin [00:16:00] I'll just quickly show the screenshot we have. There's a. There's an article. There's an article that we pulled from the Internet that basically says, epidermis, molysis bullosa, the worst disease you have never heard of. And even though you can find it on the Internet, it's still relatively rare, even now.

Martine Smith [00:16:21] Oh, right, yes, yes. You can't find it. The article. I just found that article last week and it was. I could so identify with it. This young woman you see in the picture was born in 2000 and passed away in. In 2018. Her mother describes the disease. I think we're including the link in the show notes. There is a warning on the article for graphic images. So this one is not graphic. The other two photographs that accompany the article, one is of this little girl as an infant in the hospital where she was born, without any skin on foot and just raw. Raw. It's not like the skin sloughs off as in dry skin. It's just raw. And the crux of the description of the disease is that we have an epidermis that we touch and below it is the dermis. And the two for everybody else are held together with an enzyme, those children are missing the enzyme. And so those two layers of skin don't stick together, for lack of a better term. So when any kind of touch, laying on the crib, on the bed, being held, having a diaper or anything put on, anything that's going to just barely touch the skin, those two layers are going to split and fluid will fill that space. It's a clear, yellow fluid. The blisters can be huge, and they do get huge. A few days later, Nathaniel had a blister that due to his diaper that went around half of his waist, literally, you know, proportionally to my waist. It was at least I would say would be like as if I had a blister 4 inches high and that wrapped around. They get bigger and bigger unless you open them. We met well a couple of doctors who told us about I think one child in Wyoming. Oh actually it was the Packer family. We did get to meet Boyd, Kate Packer's brother. I don't remember if we met the boy, but we met the parents and they told us that when he was, when their son was little. So you know, 1975, so 1965, early 60s, they had met a child from a family from Wyoming who brought their child so that the parents could compare notes and that had huge blisters hanging. They weren't opening them and draining the fluid. The thing is, it's very, it's entirely different from if we have a blister and we may pop it because, because the enzyme is still missing. So if you, if you simply rub your hand on the surface of the skin of one of those children, you can see the epidermis sliding off the dermis. Literally, which is how we checked our other two children when they were born. So when the blisters. When my mother in law went back and I went to the pediatrician and then that week the blisters, he started getting blisters on his elbows and around his waist and on his legs. And I was totally lost. And there was nobody who had answers near us. Certainly my mother in law said why don't you bring him to our pediatrician clinic here in Salt Lake. On Friday we went down and saw it was a pediatric clinic with four pediatricians. And as luck would have it, I felt that that was like we were directed there. Frankly, as luck would have it, one of those pediatricians had actually also cared for the Packer boy. So same thing, he just confirmed the diagnosis. Yes, that's what it is. Didn't really give us any assistance. But they did admit him to Primary Children's Hospital which was in the avenues back in those days where he spent the next two weeks. And at that point they told us not to hold him, not to touch him. I was 20 years old and no experience with babies and that's a mistake we didn't make the second time around. But I would not be surprised if some of what contributed to his passing was the fact that he had no human touch for his life. It was a cruel thing to do. It was a Cruel thing to tell us to do. So he spent two weeks at primary, brought him home. You know, by then my mother in law was cutting her old bed sheets into strips so we could, we could bandage him. Those children are always just. That's in that article. That's sort of a nice way of putting it. I was talking to Maven yesterday and. Cause it says the. They're sometimes called butterfly children because their skin is as fragile as a butterfly wing. They're also sometimes called the mummy children because like the logo on one of the associations is a child sitting down that's just totally wrapped up mummy style.

John Dehlin [00:22:21] In bandages.

Martine Smith [00:22:22] In bandages, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:27] Is there a lot of pain for the baby?

Martine Smith [00:22:31] Yes. Now 50 years ago, doctors believed that newborn babies didn't feel pain. So that's what they told us, that there wasn't pain. I think the medical community knows better now. I haven't heard anybody say that their children feel no pain. I mean it was obvious that there was distress and there was pain. We spent July sort of, you know, trying to take care of him or he never slept more than four hours. And so we would drive around. There were no car seats, safety, you know, seat belts and all of that back in those days. So we had a little plastic infant seat, that which is what some of you may have actually been carried in back then. So. And then we had little car beds. So we would put them in there, drive around Brigham City until he fell asleep, bring him home and then he was awake. So he never slept for very long. Feeding him was a challenge as well because he was laying down all the time so you couldn't burp him. And my mother in law used to be very worried about the fact he wasn't being burped. But then we couldn't sit him up. So those are children who generally they don't smile, they don't roll over, they don't sit down. I mean if they don't sit up, I mean obviously those who live longer than our children do eventually do those things, but there is no joy. There is no joy in it. Sometime in August, so we were getting to go, ready to go back to byu. Stuart had taken on like once or twice a week. He would work an extra shift. So he'd be gone 16 plus hours. He worked 16 hours. But then travel time from our house to Thiol just to make extra money because we knew we need, you know, that summer we were still on his thiocol insurance, thank goodness. So we were getting ready to go back to BYU and Nathaniel had gone in at Primary Children's Hospital a couple of times, because when so much of the body is open wounds, they lose a lot of blood. So they, you know, they become anemic. And we'd taken him, I'd taken him to the pediatrician once where his heart rate was just sky high. And so they rushed him to primary and he had the first of several transfusions. I'm going to sort of. Unless I'm forgetting something, Stuart.

Stuart Smith [00:25:18] Well, at some point we learned that he had a recessive form of the disease and the Packer child was the dominant.

Martine Smith [00:25:27] Right. So Boyd K. Packer's brother actually had scarring on his arm. We saw that he was wearing short sleeve shirts. So he showed us. So the dominant form tends to be milder and they do eventually sort of grow out of it. So the scarring remains, but they don't blister as much. And after we moved back to Utah after being away for nearly 20 years, we met other EB children. The disease is very wide ranging. There are several different types. A couple of them, 50 years ago, they were saying, a couple of them are dominant, couple of them are dystrophic. Ours was dystrophic. Recessive genes. Obviously, you know, it wasn't found in our family. That's less clear now. You know, 50 years later, like 15 years ago, they told us it was probably a gene mutation. In our case today, we probably could have our DNA analyzed to actually find out what it was. But anyway, that was all a very long time ago. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:26:36] John, as you're dealing with this infant and trying to care for the infant, were you given any prognosis, any indication of, like, could it get cured? Could it get better? Could it live to adulthood? Was it going to die in three months? You know, what, what, what understanding of a prognosis were you operating under?

Martine Smith [00:26:59] We were given no prognosis other than there was the Packer child who was living. Ours was a different form. We were informed since neither one of us obviously carried the gene. There was no history in his family that he knew of, no history in my family that I knew of. So ours was recessive. But the doctors we saw didn't probably know all that much. There was no one ever said that he wouldn't live. It was just something we were going to have to deal with and that he was going to have to deal with. Now when something like this happens, I remember, you know, I remember the day of the diagnosis and Stuart and I took a walk with a stroller and I tried with my non Medical vocabulary. And I had just been told by a doctor what it was. I'm not even sure I knew how to repeat. I'm pretty sure I wasn't epidermolysis bullosa. You know, the first as a member of the church, you just immediately start questioning, you know, why. Why is this happening? I mean immediately I started feeling guilty immediately it was like, okay, we wanted to put off having a family. And then once I got pregnant I was still angry that I was pregnant. So is this punishment because I was not faithful and faith filled to have this child? You know, people tell you oh you're so special because you know God trusts you with his child or you know, John and I were talking earlier. This is 1975. This is Saturday's Warrior. This is. Did we, you know, some people told us, oh you, you know, you probably agreed to this in the pre existence. The three of you, you know, made this pact that, that he would come this way and you know, you would take care of him. And a derivative from that is Harold B. Lee teaching that you know, he was. That Nathaniel was maybe either. I mean you can find both teachings in the church. Frankly there's this continuum. Either he was so special and such a valiant spirit in the pre existence that he agreed to come this way or he was lacking in the pre existence. But he so wanted a body that he was willing to take on this body and this burden. Really. I have read pronouncements from church authorities and I'm talking about the higher ups first presidency, quorum of the 12 from you know, 100 years ago that it can be either or. In fact I was searching the Harold Bailey one about they were willing to come with a, you know, less than perfect body because I'd heard it but I was searching it last week and I found a fair Mormon fair LDS entry on that. And they don't deny he said it. They don't deny Harold Beeley said it.

John Dehlin [00:30:28] He said what again?

Martine Smith [00:30:29] That he said that children born.

Stuart Smith [00:30:34] I thought he was teaching that our faith in the pre existence determined what our station would be in this earth.

Martine Smith [00:30:44] Mm.

John Dehlin [00:30:46] And for those maybe for the half hour non Mormon audience that have no idea what I'm. What we mean by Saturday's Warrior. Saturday's Warrior was a musical. It was written by a Mormon, Lex Diazevedo who we've had a Mormon stories. We'll put that in the show notes to go back and watch that episode with him. It was a musical that came out in the 70s that was about this that tried to reflect the Understanding of Mormon plan of salvation, the Mormon theology of the family through a musical. So the basic setting of the family is, you know, this flinders family all existed in the pre existence with mom and dad and the seven children. And they all live together in heaven with God and Jesus before they ever came to this earth. And then the parents come down, inhabit their bodies, grow up, and then they start having kids. And the kids are all growing up during the time of the 70s when there's the hippie stuff going on and you know, birth control starts to become a big issue and there's concerns about zero population and overpopulation of the world. And so abortion, this is Roe versus Wade time. Roe v. Wade would have just been passed in 73. And so it was kind of culture war kind of stuff. But in Mormonism it was really clear. And what was really clear in Mormonism in the 70s was we all existed in the pre existence with a loving heavenly father. We all knew who our parents were and who our siblings were. They chose us as their children in the preexistence. We chose them as our parents in the pre existence. It was all based on faithfulness. And so if we were going to come down as spirit children to a devout Mormon family, to your point, Stewart, and to Harold B. Lee's point, it would have been because we were extra faithful righteousness, extra faithful and righteous in the pre existence. So all of that was sort of in the Mormon doctrinal milieu. And then you add to that that if a parent decided to either postpone having children or not have children, or heaven forbid, have an abortion, basically what you were doing was you would be sending that spirit that you had agreed to be your child that had expressed a desire to be your child for you to be their parent, you would be like orphaning them for eternity or sending them to a family that they didn't want to be a part of, heaven forbid, maybe a family in Africa, like, who knows? But like a lot of pressure that said, get married quick, have a lot of babies, never put off childbirth, never have an abortion, have as many kids as you can, and family and kids are all that matter. So it's just like it's. I don't know, it's beautiful and fun and it's a great musical. I played Ernie in the Houston, Texas State production of Saturdays where the songs are catchy. A lot of fun memories. And I guess people can experience that as a real pressure cooker. And if everything works out fine, if you're able to have kids and you have a Lot of kids and everybody gets along and you're able to afford them and you've got a good job and everyone's relatively healthy. It's, it's the perfect, beautiful Mormon existence.

Martine Smith [00:34:06] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:07] What none of this Mormon theology and doctrine ever really fully accounts for is what happens when that Mormon dream that you follow out of faith careens into the bank. Right?

Martine Smith [00:34:21] Yeah, actually, actually you're retelling it that way. Just hit me when you say, you know, if you choose not to have children or to have fewer children or whatever, then that spirit is going to be, that was supposed to come to your family, is going to be sent elsewhere. Let's not even go to. It might be sent to Africa, but it might be like, like what if I was born in Belgium of non Mormon parents because some Mormon parents in Utah decided not to have that one more child? I mean it works great for the Mormon audience. But if that spirit really is sent somewhere else, like anywhere in Europe, let's say more similar to the US what does it say about that parent's children in the pre existence? You know, did they agree to anything? Anyway, the whole thing is a plan of salvation and eventually we'll get to it. But the plan of salvation is what just quit working for me entirely. Yes, there are cultural issues, yes, there are other doctrinal issues. Yes, there's a certain environment in leadership and all of that, but asking questions about things as simple as Saturday's warriors sometimes is just what just eventually made the plan of salvation crumble. And I'm not putting it all on Saturday's Warrior. I actually have the Harold Lee quote. I didn't remember that. I inserted it in here. The privilege of obtaining a mortal body on this earth is seemingly so priceless that those in the spirit world, even though unfaithful or not valiant, were undoubtedly permitted to take mortal bodies, although under penalty of racial, physical or nationalistic limitations.

John Dehlin [00:36:26] So what does that mean to you?

Martine Smith [00:36:29] That according to Harold B. Lee, it's entirely possible that my beautiful Nathaniel and my beautiful Sarah were actually less valiant, not more valiant. Like I said, it's a spectrum in the church, it's a continuum. You can find doctrine either way. So were they too pure or were they not pure enough in the pre existence? Another one was those children. Maybe those children and we haven't gotten there yet. But those, you know, those who die before accountability is because they're too pure and had they lived. In fact, there is a general authority story of a child that was blessed to live even though it was Appointed unto death. But the parents prayed so much and had the child blessed so much that that child lived beyond what someone supposed was the time God wanted them to live and ended up ruining their lives. So that child would have been celestial kingdom material, you know, straight road to if they had died when they were supposed to die. But instead the parents prayed them to stay and that child lost their inheritance to the celestial kingdom because they lived a life of, you know, wanton sinful existence. So yeah, you have that too. And I mean you can find, you can find those stories, you know, documented in books I have with references. So you mentioned about being born elsewhere. I said, yeah, the best spirits are born to Utah Mormon parents or at least us Mormon parents. And then it's all downhill from there. You know, either you're not born to Mormon parents or you're born on another continent, another country, or excuse me, but God forbid you are born in Africa pre1978. So that was sort of the hierarchy of.

Navigating Infant Illness and Church Teachings

Margi Dehlin [00:38:46] And were you aware are these kind of the thoughts and messages that are going through your mind as you're facing these really challenging, excruciating days then yes, yes.

Martine Smith [00:38:59] In fact, my sister was visiting after Nathanael was born and we did go see Saturday's Warrior somewhere here in Salt Lake. And yeah, so there was very much this. Well, I guess we agreed in the pre existence, you know, we agreed for to parent him and he agreed to come to our family. Now I know you know, Saturday's Warrior is not doctrine, but like I said, doctrine is very.

John Dehlin [00:39:33] Well, I mean I'll just say as I'm kind of trying to process this and its implications. One of the benefits that a religion can offer is to provide meaning and purpose and structure. Why are we here? Where do we come from? Why are we here? Where are we going? That's a selling value proposition of any religious tradition. Its whole theology helps, helps us kind of make sense of the world when otherwise it could be chaotic. And it could even help us make sense of things like suffering in the world. Why is there suffering? Because we're here to learn, because we're here for a test. Because if we overcome the suffering, then we can go to heaven and become like God someday. And you know, and why is our family special? Because we all agreed to be together before we ever got here and we'll be together again someday. Like that's all a value proposition. But it can all very quickly sort of flip and become a strain and a stress and it can be taxing if, if you start Scratching. And the Plan of Salvation works out as more of a horror story than as a blessing for you. And then all of a sudden, you start asking questions a centimeter deeper than what you were taught and trained, and nobody's got answers, or they've got really horrific answers that just make you feel terrible. Is that right?

Martine Smith [00:40:56] Yeah. You're actually using the exact same verbiage that I use about the Plan of Salvation. Families can be together forever. I always want to be with my own family. But once you scratch, I've used that. Stuart will tell you, I always say, with the Plan of Salvation, it looks really good. It looks like mahogany or just some beautiful wood. But once you start asking questions about how it really works, even families can be together forever. How does that work after this life? I mean, I'm not the first person to ask that. You know, Greg Prince always says, so whose house do you go to for Thanksgiving dinner in the next life? You know, we're taught, okay, that's also changing doctrine. But if you've gone to the temple, you know that you're going to have spirit children. And what's the use of having spirit children if they're not looking at you and saying, I want a body like mom and dad. How do I do that? That. Well, dear, you're going to have to go to this Earth that we're going to create for you. And then you're going to undergo trials and tribulations and you're going to be tested. You won't remember us. And then you can come back and live with us. And then it's supposed to be repeated because it's supposed to have happened before. He's only doing that which has been done in other world, even if it's Satan who says it, that's the plan is that it's been done before. So we know. Okay, So I realize that as Earthlings, we don't quite understand time and space, and we don't quite understand time and space travel either, but we are not going to be with our family around the dinner table. And yet I'm going to say I'm going to be generous 95%. I just saw a response to a tweet last week from somebody who said, oh, I just, you know, they posted a picture of their little family with a new baby, a young couple and their new baby. And they say, I just want to be together after this life. So I'm not taking any chances. I'm doing what I'm told to do in the church because I understand the drive the desire to want to be with the ones you love. But it doesn't work with the teachings that we receive in terms of what comes after this life, the repetition, the vastness, you know. Okay, we don't get our own planet. No. But we get our own kingdom. I mean, supposedly get your own kingdom, you get to have those spirits, children go there. So. Yeah, it doesn't for me, just little by little that just started falling apart.

John Dehlin [00:43:49] If I can just add something really quick, like, Margi, this, this Satter's word stuff, it's not just tangential. It defined generations of Mormonism. I don't know, Margi, if just In a few 15, 20 seconds, you want to tell about your parents in Saturday's Warrior, because it has really important implications for your four siblings. Do you just want to quickly.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:08] Yeah, so my parents joined the church in D.C. in the 70s, kind of the later 70s. And at the time of joining the church, it was my brother. And. And after they joined the church, they were done, right?

John Dehlin [00:44:23] They were done. Two kids, zero population.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:25] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:44:26] We don't want to add more kids to the world than we, you know, we don't want to replace more than us.

Martine Smith [00:44:30] Right, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:31] Zero population.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:32] That's right. And then they joined the church and then had four more children two years apart, relatively late.

John Dehlin [00:44:41] So your parents were kind of older to be having four more children because he had gone to med school, right?

Stuart Smith [00:44:47] Mm.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:49] So on the one hand you're happy that you have your extra 4 extra siblings. On the other hand, they got raised by parents who were kind of older, you know.

Martine Smith [00:44:58] Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:01] And I remember just one more story. I remember growing up, you know, this, this one family, they had a stillbirth. But see, if you believe that the spirit inhabits the fetus as soon as it's quickening or whatever and it's moving around. And then even a two month old fetus or three month old fetus was inhabited by the spirit. So at that point, it. That was the spirit's one chance to come to the earth according to Mormon theology. So the family named the fetus, the family had a funeral for the aborted, you know, stillborn fetus. They buried it in a, you know, gave it a tombstone. And then whenever they talked about how many children there were, they would mention the stillborn baby because the implications of it had a body salvation and the spirit and the name, you know, so like I. It's hard to help people understand how much this theology can really have very painful, long term implications for People that believe it for whom it goes wrong.

Martine Smith [00:46:09] Yes, because also that's very fuzzy. That's more recent that people have funerals and they name. We have friends in the ward, you know, who had stillbirth at like 8 months and who did all these things and there's a grave and all of that. But. And I mean, certainly if it was a larger fetus, you would still bury them back in the day. But the doctrine doesn't follow that because you do not do any kind of temple work for any child that for. For a stillbirth.

John Dehlin [00:46:45] It doesn't now. But. But see, the doctrine and theology and the policies have all evolved over time. So back in the 70s and 80s, they may have done all these things.

Martine Smith [00:46:55] Well, back. No, back in the 70s and 80s you wouldn't have done it, but now you do. I mean, like we have several families. We know. We have a niece who had, you know, same thing, you know, at eight months, however many weeks that is that lost the baby. The baby has a grave, the baby has a name. And the baby is. The baby's name is always included. I mean, now that I think about it, I probably know about half a dozen. Some of them include them include the name in their Christmas card, you know.

John Dehlin [00:47:26] Yeah, I guess I remember it happening in the 80s.

Martine Smith [00:47:29] And yet the church doesn't recognize it, you know, on. On a family group sheet, let's say, let's use the other terminology. It's a stillbirth for the church. It doesn't have a name. It is not. So that's very fuzzy. When the spirit enters, does it enter? Because that presupposes that it really enters at birth, when the child takes a breath.

Margi Dehlin [00:47:50] Right.

Martine Smith [00:47:51] That's when it's alive.

John Dehlin [00:47:52] Yeah.

Martine Smith [00:47:53] So, yeah, that's. We don't know.

Margi Dehlin [00:47:59] Can I ask you just on an emotional level, what you remember and how you would describe that experience of those first few months with this, this baby, especially under the conditioning of. And your excitement around marriage and motherhood. This is, this is the whole idea is this is what we're meant for. It kind of. It's the pinnacle of what we're going for to mention now layer it with this doctrine of a. A spirit having a body is something we're really grateful for because it has. But you're watching a spirit in a body that is suffering, you know, from

Martine Smith [00:48:46] day one pretty much.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:48] Yeah. So what did that feel like? What do you remember from that time? Like, how would you describe emotionally how you guys dealt with it and how you feel. Felt like waking up in the morning because I think it's precarious no matter what, right? Pregnancy, birth, those early days, I think there's so much vulnerability individually for women in that.

Martine Smith [00:49:10] But in this situation, and I wasn't even aware of hormones at that time, one part that was extremely difficult is we had no idea what was happening and neither did anybody around us. You know, his parents didn't know how to help. The people in the ward in Brigham City had one. I mean, you can't. I mean, you're still learning how this skin works or doesn't work. You can't really leave that child with anyone. Or if you do, they're not supposed to touch them and we weren't touching them. No one had ever mentioned that, the possibility that he would die. So that is not something that we entertained for.

John Dehlin [00:50:04] You were trying to keep. Keep him alive, keep him alive, make

Martine Smith [00:50:07] him keeping, you know, keep his skin from, you know, trying to get him to heal. Primary Children's Hospital I think they're the ones that came up with. With somebody built what was called a burned frame. So if you have a burned patient back then they would put them on a mesh raised from the bed so that air could circulate. I mean, if you've had any kind, you skin your knees so, you know, to clean it and you know it's going to heal. Eventually you're going to get a scab, but underneath the skin is going to mend and then the scab will fall. So not knowing anything, that's what we expected. We thought, okay, those wounds need to scab over and then they will heal. Because we had no idea how those dermis and epidermis levels worked. So

John Dehlin [00:51:06] I guess maybe here's a way to frame it. All these theories and philosophies and theologies and doctrines around the family and the pre existence and spirits, were they helping or hurting you? Were they causing you? Were they were helping you make sense of it all, or were they just causing confusion and sadness?

Martine Smith [00:51:25] Well, you think of it as. At least we did. I did. I think of it as this is a trial. And as a member of the Church, I viewed that very differently than I would have as a Catholic. I wouldn't have thought of it as a Catholic as this is a trial. Heavenly Father Taylor tailored this to me, to Stuart. And there is a lesson for us to learn in this. I have highlighted at this point also my patriarchal blessing, which I showed in a previous episode. That's well worn. I was probably reading it mostly in French at the time. Looking for any hint that this was part of the plan for me. This is what God had in mind for me. Had in mind for Nathaniel, too. But. But. So there was a lesson that I was to learn. My patriarchal blessing mentions that I will have special experiences to strengthen my testimony of the gospel, in particular of the plan of life and salvation. So I grabbed onto that. Okay, this is going to, you know, this is teaching me. This is like. And Saturday's warriors in the middle of all of that. And I read when Nathaniel was in the hospital, one of the nurses told me about this little book. It was a little. Was a little soft cover book.

Stuart Smith [00:53:08] Angel Children.

Martine Smith [00:53:09] Angel Children for children who die before the age of accountability, and was written by a woman whose sixth child, I think, was born with a heart murmur and passes away before there's a chance to do surgery. It's about four months old, I think. Maybe not that old. Anyway, I reread the book and I reread the quotes to try to just sort of put myself, because I read that while I was at primary with Nathaniel, actually, I went down to Desert Book, got it and read it. And some of those quotes, you know, and some of those theories I've mentioned because really, yes, maybe there were doctrine at some point, but then they've been, you know, they've been reinterpreted or they've been changed by, you know, by another general authority. So those are all, you know, those are all in. In the book, you know, something that actually doesn't jive with the doctrine. And it's like Orson Pratt being present when a child and an infant is suffering of something and people around are, you know, child receiving blessings. And why, you know, why does this child have to suffer so? This child is dying. Why does that child have to suffer so? And Orson Pratt saying, well, he needs to suffer to inherit the celestial kingdom. Well, that's actually in total opposition to our doctrine, is that children inherit the celestial kingdom just right off. So, yeah, lots of questions around that and feeling, you know, feeling guilty that there's something we did or didn't do. And yet if I look back at, you know, we were totally worthy to be married in the temple, for example, you know, and of course, I look at it very. With. Through a very different lens of my 68 years, rather than when you're young and you actually think maybe we made out a little too much in the car there that day. So maybe that's why. I mean, you know, you just. I mean, I, you know, sometimes listening to, you know, watching Mormon stories. When you hear young people and you remember how you used to think in very simplistic terms, in fact, in. In the ways that God might or might not work. So.

John Dehlin [00:55:29] Okay, all right. Well, putting theology and doctrine aside, now you've got a kid that's, you know, you're struggling to keep it alive. And Stuart, you've got a young career that you're trying to keep afloat to provide for your family. Sounds incredibly stressful.

Nathaniel's Struggle to Survive and Priesthood Blessings

Stuart Smith [00:55:48] Yeah, it was pretty stressful. I remember that, you know, August was approaching. August, end of August, I was supposed to return to school. And I remember my supervisor at work talking to me. And they knew about our child and, and the, you know, they. Not that much, but they knew serious problems. And he. He told me, says, you know, Why don't you. Why don't you stay here and work and, and work here. You can keep your insurance coverage, you know, and take care of the baby. And I thought about that, but I also thought and knew that I needed to complete my education. And I think we just felt like. This was our mission. This was what we were given to. To experience what this child was given to experience. And we were just going to do the best we could. And we went back to school, going back to Provo. Found a little house for rent.

Martine Smith [00:57:19] No, we lived in an apartment.

Stuart Smith [00:57:20] That's right, we lived in an apartment. Third floor.

Martine Smith [00:57:25] Yeah.

Stuart Smith [00:57:26] And, you know, started back at school.

Martine Smith [00:57:31] Yeah, we went back to BYU at the end of August. In fact, the day we were supposed to move, Nathaniel was in the hospital getting yet another transfusion. And, you know, September came along and, you know, of course he was constantly receiving priesthood blessings to be healed. To be healed. To be healed. Early October, he again needed to go back to primary for another transfusion. And so I took him alone. And there was really no place for parents to stay back then. They had some, like, couches, you know, spread out throughout the hospital. But, you know, they were not really great facilities for parents of children who were hospitalized. And I didn't want to leave him. And so I elected to just spend the night in the rocking chair. And as the night wore on, I had a strong impression that he would die. And the impression was that he was going to die during the night. And so I kept myself awake all night waiting. When the morning came and the nurses came on, the new nurses came on for their shift, hadn't seen anyone during the night. So at 7am the new nurses came in, and I immediately told the nurse. She asked how he was, and I said there was no change. And I immediately told her that he was going to die. No one had ever mentioned death. So she sort of ran out of the room, wrote it on the chart, got the doctor, told the doctor, I know that I was told later on the charts, you know, mother is falling apart. So they released him and sent me home. So I drove back to Provo and I told Stuart, he's going to die. And Stuart got very angry, very emotional because he thought I was giving up. And we had some words, a lot of words.

Stuart Smith [01:00:08] I think it was the only time in our married life together that I got physical with her and I shoved her and she fell on the bed. And I know that for me personally, I was absolutely aghast that I had lost control to that extent.

John Dehlin [01:00:33] What were you feeling? What were you thinking?

Stuart Smith [01:00:38] I felt like. Well, like she said, I felt like we had to fight to keep this child as long as it was alive. And I felt like she was losing the will to continue. And at that time, for whatever reason, it scared me and I. It made me angry. And I felt like she was. Even though I know everything that she had been through, I just felt like we can't give up.

John Dehlin [01:01:20] And you felt like she was giving up and that's why you got angry.

Stuart Smith [01:01:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:26] And what were you feeling?

Martine Smith [01:01:30] I had felt a really strong impression. Even though it went against. I don't know that we'd ever even brought it up with the doctors, like, could he die? I don't recall that. But like I said, it had never been mentioned. I'm the one who mentioned it.

John Dehlin [01:01:49] Just mother's intuition. Okay.

Martine Smith [01:01:51] Yeah, yeah. So we talked. We had a wonderful. So BYU didn't have wards at that time. They had branches. And we were in the BYU 25th Branch. And John Gardner from the physics department was our branch president. And he was amazing. He was just, you know, we had just barely moved back, so we just barely met him and very, very supportive. So we called him, we talked to your parents. And President Gardner asked if we wanted to have a branch wide fast and family fast. And we agreed. Of course we had, you know, we had prayed, we had used fast Sundays. You know, the family had been praying and fasting for four months almost by then. And so the fast was set for Wednesday, a Wednesday which is what, four days before. So like the 8th of the 8th of October.

John Dehlin [01:02:58] So for our non Mormon listeners, a branchwide fast would mean everyone in a congregation would agree, adults would agree to naughty. To go without food for.

Martine Smith [01:03:08] For 24 hours. And at the close of that fast, Then the family and President. President Gardner would gather together and bless Nathaniel. And the purpose of the priesthood blessing,

John Dehlin [01:03:22] the purpose would be of the fast that was.

Martine Smith [01:03:27] I'm not even sure that we gave the. Okay, that's going back to too long. But. So we had the fast, and at the close of the fast, President Stewart's parents came down for Salt Lake, and President Gardner asked us before he. He administered the blessing, he said, what? You know, where are you? How are you feeling? And for the first time in four months, we said, if it's his time to go, we're willing to let him go. And so President Gardner blessed him that. Exactly that. That if it was his time to go back to his Father in heaven, we were willing to do that. So Stuart had come around by then

John Dehlin [01:04:12] in those few days, coming around to accepting.

Martine Smith [01:04:16] Accepting that that might be the outcome, you know, if it wasn't, then we'd just keep taking care of it.

John Dehlin [01:04:23] So this is. So if it's okay just to. This is an example of where Mormon doctrine and theology can be complicated, because on the one hand, we all have hope and feel powerful because the Mormon Church teaches us that priesthood power is the power to heal. And who doesn't want a superpower to heal? So when we are taught that we can have these priesthood blessings with consecrated oil and that just like Jesus healed the blind man, Jesus healed the leper. Right? Like, okay, priesthood power, here's your chance. So as people believing Mormons, certainly you would have had this hope all along that those priesthood blessings along the way was Nathanael given priesthood blessings with. With oil and by. By you, Stuart.

Martine Smith [01:05:10] Dad. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:11] So it's like, well, Jesus did it, and. And we have the priesthood power. Let's heal, Nathaniel. I mean, that would have been a reasonable Mormon expectation.

Martine Smith [01:05:21] So. But then you always know there's some reason why it's not, you know. Exactly. You know, you have a lesson to learn. It's not the right time. You know, he agreed to be born with this. You agreed to take care of him in this condition, or you weren't faithful

John Dehlin [01:05:37] enough, or the person blessing wasn't faithful enough. Maybe I could have. I mean, I don't know, Stuart, if you would have thought maybe if I'd had more faith, maybe the blessing would have worked or the blessings.

Stuart Smith [01:05:49] I don't remember how I was feeling about blessings at that point, but I knew by the time we reached this point, this was early October, you know, I had. I was. I had accepted that he may not survive.

John Dehlin [01:06:05] Yeah. And I guess all I'm Trying to say is as a Mormon, you would have this belief in priesthood power, this hope that, this belief that miracles can still happen today. That's the whole value proposition. And this hope that in this case where you really need to draw on these powers, it would take effect. But then oftentimes it doesn't. In fact, it doesn't, it turns out, any more than the general population.

Martine Smith [01:06:28] Right.

John Dehlin [01:06:29] And so then you're, you're, you're left reeling of trying to make justifications or explanations for, for why the power didn't work. And that's where the blessing and the promise of Mormon theology can kind of fall apart maybe or give you consolation that God, there's always like God needed Nathaniel to be a missionary in the afterlife.

Martine Smith [01:06:55] Yeah, that and you know, and it's not only what lessons we might learn, we are meant to learn, but it's also, you know, extended family, you know, what lessons might they learn from that. We are aware of a number of children in the church with epidermolysis bullosa with. And none of them have been healed through the power of the priesthood. We know several sets of siblings, just like in our case, brother, sister, that were born in the 70s as well, and they lived longer, but all of them passed away many years ago now and their lives were not made better. One of them was written up in the Ensign because she actually got married and we knew her, but she had a brother who passed away before she did. But, you know, she was a young married woman. She had a beautiful voice too. High angel like soprano voice. So I want to say something to those who are listening because you talk about, you know, people think about eczema and whatever other skin problems there are. So we did post a link to that article out of the Australian news outlet and I think Maven will, will mention this too. This is hard. And I showed those pictures to John and Margi before we started. So you really have to brace yourself to look at those pictures. But if you go to Google images first, so don't Google epidermolysis bulosa because you'll get all of the, you know, the Mayo Clinic and everything else. You get all the medical stuff. But if you Google, if you go to Google Images and then there you go, Epidermolysis bullosa. Brace yourself. But then you will get pictures of what our children suffered through. And you know, another thing I want to point out, we don't, we don't want nor need anyone's pity. Saturday, when we recounted, when we went through the outline a lot of times the two of us will cry. Right now I'm not crying, and I can't tell you why I'm not crying. But normally when I get to this point in the story, I do cry when you remember how much they suffered. So I don't want pity for us, but I want people to understand what those children go through. And they are not the only ones walk into any children's hospital. There are all kinds of diseases none of us are aware of that children suffer from. And that's another one of those questions. Why do children suffer?

Stuart Smith [01:09:47] I think it's also important, John, to contrast this experience with our firstborn, our son Nathaniel, and our third child, our daughter, who had the same condition. And how the experiences were different and. And how we looked at them differently as we began to. As we began to understand or try seek to understand why and the quest and the answers weren't coming. That's when some things began to change in our.

John Dehlin [01:10:21] That's how the story unfolds.

Martine Smith [01:10:22] Yeah, because as I tell the next four days, you know you're going to see it's very much pray, get answer. Pray, get answer. Pray, get answer. And I mean, it followed the formula you are taught in church. Have faith. Pray, and God will answer you. So, so this is Wednesday night. So Nathaniel is blessed. Two days later, life goes on. Two days later. So he's being fed while lying down always. And so it's Friday night, and suddenly I've just given him a bottle. By then, by the way, we have been gavage feeding him so he's not able to suck sufficiently to have enough nourishment. So I'm taught to put a tube through his nose. It goes all the way to the stomach. So with a syringe, you slowly deliver the formula to the stomach that way. So I've just fed him that way, and suddenly he vomits.

Margi Dehlin [01:11:24] And

Martine Smith [01:11:26] I would learn later what it meant. It's a projectile vomit. So it literally just squirts out of his mouth at a distance the next day. We hadn't been to the temple, obviously, since he was born, and we decide because of that blessing, because we're ready to let him go and all of that. We asked Stuart's mother if she would come down so we can attend a session at the Provo temple. And I'll just let you. I'll let you tell your experience in the temple.

Stuart Smith [01:12:03] Well, I guess we'd go in the tent was we're waiting in the chapel, you know, before the session starts. The organ music is playing and all that, you know, at some point I looked up and I. I just had this impression that there were those family members on the other side of the veil who were preparing to welcome him back. You know, I was just. I was prepared. I mean, I was. I was probably open to that and primed for that kind of feeling. And I felt that way at that particular time.

John Dehlin [01:12:44] So that's where the theology can add comfort.

Martine Smith [01:12:46] Yeah, right.

John Dehlin [01:12:47] It's like, oh, he's dying, but there'll be family members there to receive him and he won't be alone and he'll be embraced with love. How'd that feel, Stuart?

Stuart Smith [01:12:57] Yeah, it was. It was. It was fleeting, but it was comforting.

Martine Smith [01:13:04] Yeah, he shared that with me. You know, afterward, we went home and the plan had been that his parents would come down the next day and I would fix dinner that night. Like I said, he never slept more than three or four hours at a time. And at night I slept, but Stuart stayed awake because Nathaniel cried all night. He wouldn't stop. So about five o' clock in the morning, Stuart woke me up and said, something is wrong. We need to take him to the hospital. So we took him to Utah Valley Hospital, the old hospital in X shape.

Stuart Smith [01:13:43] Well, we called the branch president, we

Martine Smith [01:13:45] called President Gardner first, and we didn't have a pediatrician again because we'd been using my mother's pediatrician in Salt Lake, so we didn't have a pediatrician. So we're going to. So President Gardner called one of his ward members, his home ward members, to meet us at the hospital. So we arrived at the hospital, I think we stayed with him most of the time because they did a punction. I mean, they did a lot of tests, carefully, quiet as we try to explain how not to touch him, that sort of thing. But of course, there are things that they have to do, you know, like every time he was getting a transfusion, you know, finding a vein and anyway, nightmarish. So they do a punction, lumbar punction, and eventually come back with the results that he has, is diagnosed with meningitis. I haven't had time to check the medical stuff these last few days, but back then they told us that that projectile vomiting 48 hours earlier would have been the first symptom of the meningitis. So in our very believing status in the church at the time, I looked at it as he vomited, literally, you know, 48 hours. So that first symptom came exactly 48 hours after the blessing. So basically the blessing sealed it. You know, we were Ready to let him go. And he showed that first, you know, the incubation period being 48 hours. He showed that first symptom on Friday night. So about noon, they sent us home. They said they felt they'd caught it in time, that, you know, go home and, you know, well, you may want to bring his toys. Well, he didn't have toys because he. The thing I failed to say is that if you look at the pictures, people go online, the long fingernails and toenails are a symptom of EB and they lose them within weeks after birth. They lose them all, and they never grow back. It's also because of the frequent sores, the open wounds between the fingers. As they grow old, the fingers fuse. Now, I think now there is technologies, special gloves and things like that that they're able to use to keep the fingers separated. But in our day, and much later than that, actually, Jamie Gibson, the girl that I mentioned earlier, who. Who passed away several years after being married, Jamie was still. So that was maybe 15 years ago. Jamie had her hands refused. I think she graduated from byu. She had a Nate that took notes for her and that sort of thing. But Jamie was very tiny, very skinny, and bandaged from the neck down, basically. So we went home. Stuart's parents brought dinner. Instead of us fixing it, instead of me fixing it. And we were around the dinner table about 5:15, I think, when the phone rang and it was the hospital. Stuart picked it up and, yeah, they

Stuart Smith [01:17:18] told me Nathaniel had taken a turn for the worse and could we please come right away.

Martine Smith [01:17:27] So we arrived and, you know, they put us in a room where we waited for a little bit. And then the doctor that we had just barely met that morning came out and very sadly told us his exact words were, he has succumbed. And then they invited us into the room where they had standard procedure. They had cleaned him up and wrapped him in a blanket, and they left us with him for about an hour, an hour and a half. And for the first time, we were in. For the first time since he was two weeks old, we held him, we rocked him, we touched him.

Stuart Smith [01:18:17] Yeah, I remember the one thing that really kind of stayed with me, impressed me, was as I held him and put my hand on his head, I could feel the heat leaving his body through the crown of his head. He just died, but you could. You could feel the temperature leaving him.

Martine Smith [01:18:51] Such a small body, too. You know, a few weeks before that, he was about three months old. We went. I don't know. I think it was a KFC On University Avenue in Provo. And I had him in the little infant seat on the table and somebody, I had him covered up. Nathaniel's face and head were not affected. I think he had just a little bit of a sore above his lip. But otherwise you couldn't, you couldn't really tell there was anything wrong with him. And you know, always covered him with a blanket and he was wrapped anyway. But I remember a woman coming over and asking how old he was and I said three months. And she said what are you doing to him? And I didn't know if it was positive or negative if she thought he was. He wasn't fat but he wasn't skinny either. So anyway, it's just something I remember that, you know, people comment and she's

John Dehlin [01:19:46] basically implying that you weren't, you know, maybe, yeah, meeting his needs, caring for him properly.

Martine Smith [01:19:53] So. So we had the funeral two days later. We didn't know any better either. We just made arrangements, you know, immediately. We had the funeral in one of the regular ward buildings on 200 north in Provo. And Stuart, he had been my mission president too since I was a new member. President Brown, who was a faculty in the French department spoke and gave a beautiful scripture based tender talk. I don't know if there were other talks. Well, we have it recorded but I don't recall, you know, a few members of our ward put a couple of musical numbers together or my father and another one that I don't like about death. But anyway, you know. And he is buried in the Salt Lake City Cemetery. Stuart's family had some plots and so he is buried there. I was on Tuesday, he was buried on Tuesday and I think on Wednesday I went to the language training mission and I said, will you hire me back? Literally, it was insane. I mean, you know, in hindsight, like it didn't take me 40 years to figure it out. But I thought that was absolutely crazy. I mean how could I do that right after my child died. But I was home alone with nothing to do. The cry. So they took me back. I didn't teach. I tested missionaries skills after that, but so I went back.

Stuart Smith [01:21:35] One thing I did want to mention is at the funeral, I mean it was, it was nice, people tried to comfort us and we heard, you know, so many platitudes, I want to say. But the one that stuck with me, that really made a difference and helped was the physician who cared for him in Salt Lake. It was friends of my, my parents and came down and he attended the funeral. I mean he didn't have to, but he was there. And afterwards he came up to us, as, you know, we were. People were saying goodbye to us, etc. And I remember he shook my hand and he said to both of us, you need to know that there will be happier days ahead. And for me at that time, you know, that meant more than, I think all of the, all of, like I said, the spiritual platitudes that people tell you to try and, you know, make themselves feel better and make you feel better.

John Dehlin [01:23:04] Like, I mean, I want to highlight how meaningful that was to you and how beautiful it was for him to offer you that hope. That's beautiful. So I'm glad you shared it, but I. And if it's okay, I also want to address the platitudes and how Mormons do death. I remember when a family member's son died just in the past few years. And, you know, we're at the funeral, we're at the, you know, we're at the, the family time afterwards, and the fam. And the ward member, the well intended ward member walks up to my family member and says, I had a dream, and your son came to me in my dream and told me to tell you that he's great and he's having a great time and you shouldn't be sad for him. And on the one hand, I'm thinking what a, you know, great, beautiful. He's trying to console, maybe he believes it, but he's trying to console this sad family member of mine. On the other hand, I'm thinking, like, I wonder if my family members wondering why his son didn't come see him in the dream. And what is it that makes the ward member like, like you said, it's almost like they're trying to make themselves feel better by offering a platitude that, that we're not good at just accepting the death, but we got to come up with reasons for ourselves and come up with reasons for the grieving. As if we're almost uncomfortable with grieving.

Martine Smith [01:24:39] Yes. Oh, yes.

Stuart Smith [01:24:40] Oh, yeah. Many years later, we attended a lecture by Rabbi Kushner, you know, when, when. Not why, but when bad things happen to good people. And, you know, one of his messages is that many times, most of the times in those situations, people say things that make them feel better. They, you know, they try to. They hope it makes you feel better. They think it will, but really they're telling you because it makes them feel better.

Martine Smith [01:25:15] Yes. And we skipped over a very important doctrinal point which is unique to Mormonism. About children who died and that it is. You will raise them during the millennium. They're not lost to you. You will get them back as you laid them in the grave, and you will get to raise them. And what a marvelous time to be raising a child during the millennium when Christ reigns on the earth. And that promise as a young mother at that point, 21 years old and the second time around, 25 years old, who is yearning for that baby. The comfort that Mormonism offers at that moment is unique. Now, eventually it quit working for me, but it took, like, three decades before I gave that one up. But, yes, the hope of we'll be a family. And, you know, I will. I will see them grow up. That wasn't really taken from me. And that's really unique to the church. This idea that I think that's really

Margi Dehlin [01:26:38] common to hear oftentimes is this idea of, well, aren't we lucky? Aren't we lucky because we have. As Mormons, you'll be able to see your son or your dad or your loved one again. And I've just heard the counter to that of just maybe, maybe. But I still miss them. And I have many, many days of not being with them. Even if that's true, like, just let me feel sad that I'm. I'm without them for the days ahead. Would that be okay?

Martine Smith [01:27:16] You know, Yeah. I was glad that. I think it was President Brown who quoted Doctrine and Covenants. Oh, now I don't remember. Thou shalt. It's about mourning as long as you mourn for those. Thou shall live together in love as long as you mourn. But there's a caveat, especially as long as you mourn for those. For the. Those who are departed. But the caveat is, especially if they were, like, unworthy, especially, you know, you really get to mourn for those who will not inherit the celestial kingdom. So Stuart made the point. So this was, you know, that week basically just followed the formula. You pray, you get an answer. You pray, you get an answer. You get a feeling in the temple. You know, I get the feeling that he's going to die. And he does quickly now. I was pretty naive and things were very different with general authorities in the early 70s. So I am just mourning, you know, I'm just in mourning for. For my child, my firstborn. And I'm, of course, at byu, where, you know, in my apartment complex, pretty much everybody has at least one child or is about to have one or already has two or three. And so I drive up to Salt Lake without An appointment or anything. And I just go to the church office building and I tell one of the nice ladies and it was a church office building because they were remodeling the administration building or something. And I just say, you know, I just lost my child and I'd like to talk to some, somebody like an apostle. Would that be possible? So, yes, they take me to whatever floor it was to the office of Elder Legrand Richards.

Stuart Smith [01:29:15] Oh, wow.

Martine Smith [01:29:16] Yeah, it was that easy back then. Now he was sort of a good choice because Legrand Richard and his wife were mission president in the Netherlands. I haven't checked to see when that was because he was pretty elderly when I saw him. But while they were in the Netherlands, so, you know, Netherlands, Belgium, you know, we're neighbors, so got a little bit of affinity there. While they were there, they lost a three year old daughter. So, you know, he had a lot of empathy and a lot of compassion. I don't recall anything specific he said, except for this, that now that I had a child in the celestial kingdom, our exaltation was assured. I recently joked with someone that it's like getting the second anointing.

John Dehlin [01:30:05] Yeah.

Martine Smith [01:30:06] Our exaltation was assured because Nathanael, wherever we were, would claim us. He would come and get us. It's not doctrinal. It's the Grand Richards.

John Dehlin [01:30:19] But you, you bring up something I don't know. We mentioned it is Mormon doctrine that if a kid dies before they. They're eight.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:25] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:30:25] They automatically inherit the celestial kingdom.

Martine Smith [01:30:27] Yes, that is doctrine. That's why they.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:29] Yeah, yeah, just that second part that you guys, that's, that's a little gone rogue.

Martine Smith [01:30:35] But yes, he went rogue there.

John Dehlin [01:30:36] But, but it's, I'm sure it's there to help parents feel hopeful after something super tragic.

Martine Smith [01:30:43] I mean, there is something maybe like in Brigham's day, there's something about, you know, I think Brigham said, you know, if your children wander or whatever, you know, you'll be able to go and get them if you have the ceiling, you know, if you have been sealed by the priesthood power, you know, nothing will break those bonds. You will. So maybe he was just going off on that. But that's something that I have heard that Brigham say that, you know, the sealing power because like in a Relief Society class, I mean, I've heard it said before, you know, when a mother is moaning about her children who have left the church, you know, well, you are an eternal family and you will be able. Which takes away of course that child, that adult child agency. Because if they've left on their own volition and they don't want to come back. Do you really want to pull them in the celestial kingdom? I thought only people who were comfortable being there would be there. So anyway, like I said, you just, you keep asking questions about the plan of salvation and it just gets very.

John Dehlin [01:31:47] It's the scratching. It's the scratching a centimeter under. Like I, like I remember as a teenager realizing that if all kids who die before the age of eight inherit the celestial kingdom, and this is a awful thought, the most charitable thing you could do is kill them all, because then you guarantee their salvation. Now, of course, that's a horrible, terrible thing to think, but it's logical because. Because it almost seems cruel if by letting them live that day past, you know, their last day as a seven year old, then all of a sudden they have the risk of not just being separated from their families for eternity, but maybe even end up in outer darkness. Why not just guarantee, you know, that. Obviously that's one theological problem to that teaching. But then the other is it's part of the articles of faith that men will be judged for their own sins and not for Adam's transgressions. Well, then how does it make any sense that a baby dying from a disease then makes it so parents automatically get to go to the celestial kingdom? Whereas if there are other parents that are trying their best, but they can't kick the cigarette habit or the coffee habit, and they don't have the good fortune, and this is a horrible way to say it, the good fortune of their baby dying, well, they're kind of screwed. And they don't get to be with their family in the afterlife. Like, this is where it offers hope and it completely breaks down. Stuart, you're laughing. Why are you laughing?

Martine Smith [01:33:16] Yeah, those are things we've been discussing for years. The rabbit hole I have gone down with the plan of salvation cannot be numbered. There are numerous endless stars in the sky. Yes, yes. Okay, so we're going to try to jump ahead here. Yes. So the promises that are made to the parents is that we'll raise them in the millennium that the child is perfect, their exaltation is assured. And then of course, now we're facing the, you know, the timing of another child. We had a child. Now, like I said, I'm living. I'm surrounded by, you know, by new mothers. I want a baby. And he's like, no way, we're not doing this again for a while.

John Dehlin [01:34:10] At that point, you don't know if you don't know if it's. I don't even know if genetics occurred to you at that point.

Martine Smith [01:34:16] Yeah, we've been told it's a recessive gene. So your chances are one in four to have another with each pregnancy. They're one in four that that child will be born with it.

Stuart Smith [01:34:27] Well, that's what they told us. But the fact that we could identify no family history on either side, it sort of let you think, well, maybe this was just some kind of, you know, DNA injury or something, you know, and it was a one in a million kind of a thing, and it's okay to, you know, have more children. So you. You wanted to kind of think that way if you wanted to, you know, have a family.

John Dehlin [01:35:06] And again, this is where you could either hope that the teaching of personal prayer and personal revelation could come into play. You just pray and God's going to tell you whether or not to have the baby, you know, or you could rely on your priesthood leadership and just say, hey, Bishop, you've got a closer connection to God than me, or go to an apostle of grand Richards, hey, you're an apostle. You're a special witness of Christ. Hey, can you let me know whether if I have a baby, it's going to have the disease or not? Because. Or your patriarchal blessing, like any of that, Great, great opportunities for those powers to make manifest in a very practical, meaningful way.

Martine Smith [01:35:42] True, right? Oh, yeah, yeah. You go through all that. Yeah. You. You know, I don't think Stuart ever reread his patriarchal blessing because I don't think there's anything, you know, that pertains. And I can't say that there's anything that pertains for me except the, the, you know, it does mention, for example, that I will be warned in advance of trials. I don't know, a whole slew of things. It's like four different things that I will be warned in advance of, in advance of. And, you know, so am I being warned, you know, do I have an inkling that this might happen again? Am I really listening to the spirit? You know, could I know if I asked just all of those things? Yeah, yeah. Anyway, so we didn't go ask anybody. And eventually, two months later, I did become pregnant. So we didn't wait very long after Nathaniel was born. I had an IUD placed because it was obvious that wouldn't be a good idea to have baby right away. So once we didn't have an infant anymore. But, you know, some of the people are clueless, and that's. That's okay. You know, I under. I. I understand. But it was like in December. So about two months after Nathaniel passed away, I get a call from a gal downstairs who has a three month old baby and she needs to go somewhere and she said, would you mind coming and babysitting? She said, you're over it now, right? Two months after the birth, after the death of the child. But you know, she was young and a young mom and. But Right.

John Dehlin [01:37:25] So you weren't over it.

Martine Smith [01:37:27] I wasn't over it and wasn't going to be over it for a long time.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:30] Doesn't work that way.

Martine Smith [01:37:31] No. So in August, I'm just going to skip. You know, this is 1976, so our son is a bicentennial baby. That was sort of a big deal back then. So in August our son is born.

Birth and Loss of Their Second Child Sarah

John Dehlin [01:37:47] I just have to note, you weren't over it to be watching someone else's kid, but you were over it enough to have a baby.

Martine Smith [01:37:54] Oh, yeah, Because I was baby hungry.

John Dehlin [01:37:57] And that's the Mormon plan of salvation, right?

Martine Smith [01:37:59] Yeah, I was baby hungry. Everybody around me had babies. I wanted a baby.

John Dehlin [01:38:03] Yeah.

Stuart Smith [01:38:04] Yeah.

Martine Smith [01:38:04] I wanted a normal baby. I wanted a redo.

John Dehlin [01:38:07] Yeah.

Martine Smith [01:38:10] So our son is born.

John Dehlin [01:38:12] Second son.

Stuart Smith [01:38:12] Right.

Martine Smith [01:38:13] Second son. Stuart stresses a lot while I'm pregnant. He doesn't share that with me as much as he would during the third pregnancy. But I give birth and he's there. And as they are taking him out, he didn't remember doing that, but I know he did. For one thing, our son looks fine. There's no open wound. The fingernails look fine. You know, we check him that way, but Stuart did just press on his forearm and everything was moving normally, so we were good. So he walked home and finished painting the dresser.

John Dehlin [01:38:58] The second child didn't have.

Martine Smith [01:39:00] Our second child is healthy.

John Dehlin [01:39:02] Yeah.

Martine Smith [01:39:04] He did have surgery for a double hernia at six weeks or something like that. But to us that was fairly minor compared to what we had just gone through. So anyway, so I think we can move all the way to 1977. And Stuart graduates from BYU, so he's graduating in chemical engineering. He's going to work in the petroleum area, petroleum refining. So he interviews. He has like half a dozen trips to various plants. One is in the Houston area. Exxon and Shell in the Houston area. One of them is Exxon in Baton Rouge and then some others like in Oklahoma. So because of the, you know, because Louisiana is French, we decide to say yes to Louisiana.

Stuart Smith [01:39:56] Plus, that was an R and D position, research position. So that interested me to Follow there. You guys don't remember, but in the 70s was the decade of the first oil, Arab oil embargo and Jimmy Carter, baby.

John Dehlin [01:40:15] I was in Texas, I was in Houston in the 70s energy crisis.

Stuart Smith [01:40:20] And boy, you know, we talk about green energy today, but back then it was oil in the ground that we needed and we needed it badly.

Martine Smith [01:40:31] Yeah. So it's 1977, we moved to Baton Rouge. The church is different there. You know, he's in the elders quorum and we make friends, friends that we still have today with several young couples like us who have children. Like usually they have a child that is the age that Nathaniel would have been and they have also, you know, a second one. Of course, that's the age of our son. So good activities. I don't think we really had anything to complain about about the church. I mean, it was, it was different, but it was, but it was, it was okay. I do, I get called to the nursery, however, and that's Weekday Relief Society back then. And so I really don't get to know any of the women until I'm out of the nursery. That was something that, that bothered me back then because I didn't, you know, on Sunday, it was just Sunday school and sacrament meeting and that was not really social in terms of meeting anybody in 1978. And Stuart's been, you know, with Exxon for a year and we buy our first home June of 1978. We got an interest rate just under 10%. Just before interest rates went over, mortgage rates went over 10%. We felt very fortunate.

John Dehlin [01:41:57] Yeah, it's a different time.

Martine Smith [01:41:59] So that's 1978. I am also by then expecting again.

John Dehlin [01:42:05] So I am excited you thought about the risks.

Martine Smith [01:42:09] Yes, we have, we have, we haven't. We have a healthy child, you know, so it's sort of an incentive. Maybe it's just a one time thing. So that time I don't get pregnant accidentally. We actually, we plan this one, you know, we're moving into a home and you know, our son is. Well, he'll be two and a half by the time she's born. So. But Stuart is very, very stressed over that pregnancy. So sometime. So this baby is born the middle of, it's due the middle of January and you know, we're. Obviously I'm going to the doctor and at some point in November, I think Stuart says you got to call up in Salt Lake and get them to send Nathaniel's records so that, you know, the doctors, if there is something wrong with this baby, the doctors will have Something to look at. And I'm like, no, we wait until this baby is born. You know, everything's going to be fine. I don't want to think that way, but I think we did anyway. Or you did, but the records came, so beginning of 79. So this baby is due on the 14th of January, which is a Sunday. And the day before, or maybe the Friday, Stuart gets a call. So he's been serving. I'm not sure what position. He can't remember either. He may have been in the elders quorum presidency, I don't know. But, you know, he's been serving in some capacity in the ward. And it's an appointment with a member of the stake presidency, I think with the stake president. But we don't keep journals, so we don't know. And during that meeting, they explained to him that the next day they are. So Baton Rouge has two wards at that time. Baton Rouge first, the north end of town, Baton Rouge second ward, the south end of town. And LSU is sort of in between the university and that the next day they're going to separate a section of the second ward and create an independent branch that will be called the Baton Rouge South Branch. It will run mostly along sort of a main road, main artery. And a lot of the LSU faculty live there. So it's not really. It's not a student branch in any sense, because these are, you know, faculty members. But it will have LSU students in the dorms and that sort of thing. So the membership is going to be a little less than 200. And Stuart is called as a second counselor in that branch. He tells the authority that's calling, whether it's the stake president or the counselor, that we have a baby coming in a few days. The baby is due the next day, actually. And, you know, there's a chance that baby might be very ill and might need his dad, their dad, to be home. So, you know, the stake president says, you know, fine, we'll work with you. And so the next day, Stuart's sustained with the branch president that we hardly know and the first counselor. They will eventually be very close and very important in our lives. On Wednesday. Well, on Wednesday, I give birth to Sarah. I'm pretty much in labor, like, all afternoon. In the delivery room. Again, it's a south. So they're behind. Stuart is in the delivery room. But that was a new thing. They had only allowed fathers in the delivery room for, like, three months when we moved there, although our first two children were born with their dads in the delivery room. And in Europe, like all of my cousins, you know, everybody had their child, their kids using Lamaze. And the fathers were in the delivery room. So moving to the south, things are a little slower, but I'm glad Stuart can be there. So I'm in the recovery room and they bring Sarah over. They've told me it's a girl. Stuart has seen her. He hasn't said anything to me. So they bring her and of course she's all, you know, she's all wrapped up and suddenly those jerky movements. She pushes her arm and hand out and I see the tiniest sign around the cuticle. Only a parent or a doctor who knew and was expecting it would have noticed the cuticles are just like red, like slightly inflamed, but it is so little. And yet I know immediately she has ev.

John Dehlin [01:47:25] And maybe I'll show. I'll show really quickly the photos really quick. Okay, so, yeah, what we're showing here is a picture of Sarah right on the left, her face, and then to the right, it's a picture of Sarah sitting on the lap of.

Martine Smith [01:47:45] Of our son, who's two and a half at that point.

John Dehlin [01:47:47] And what should those watching notice on the photo?

Martine Smith [01:47:51] Okay, if you look at her left knee, so the knee on the right, if you're looking at the picture, you can see a red spot. So at that point, she's not quite a month old, and she has already had multiple blisters. And this is, you know, this is one of the wounds that she already has. You don't expect to see infants with, let's say, skin knees, even though it's quite different than really a skin knee. But because we knew what she had when she was born, we handled her very differently, very, very carefully from day one. You know, even though we vowed that we would always touch her and always hold her and rock her, we wouldn't repeat the mistake we felt we were. We were counseled to make with Nathaniel. So the blisters appeared more slowly with her, like with Nathaniel. Within a couple days after I brought him home, he was blistering, including huge blister, a huge blister around his waist and blisters on his arms and things like that. Sarah, we were able to keep that coming more slowly. We also knew to puncture them. We had adequate equipment, we had needles. Anyway, we were a little more. Even though we weren't prepared before she was born, once she was born, we were able to care for that for her a little bit better and retard as much as possible. Full blown EB but that didn't last all that long. But at least early on, our son is holding her. With her, I was determined to be breastfeed because I knew it would be best for her. I wasn't encouraged with the first, like my mother in law was of a generation where they discouraged women from breastfeeding. They said breast milk was no good. Where did they get that? My mother. Same thing. So same generation. So with Sarah, I was determined to breastfeed, but I wasn't able to keep it up very long because her gums bled. What I also failed to say is that the blistering is not only on the skin that you can see the blistering occurs on the gums, the esophagus, inside and outside. It blisters and it tears, obviously. So, you know, I would, I mean, Stuart would watch me breastfeed and then, you know, and then there was blood. There was blood on me, there was blood on her. So he begged me to stop the bottle somehow. Didn't do the same thing as breastfeeding.

John Dehlin [01:50:49] So you have a photo of a child in a crib.

Martine Smith [01:50:56] That is it in the.

John Dehlin [01:50:58] That is in kind of the. Maybe a more severe state. Is that. Which child is that of? There's a photo in here.

Martine Smith [01:51:06] Is that in the casket, actually?

John Dehlin [01:51:07] Oh, is that the casket?

Martine Smith [01:51:08] Sarah?

John Dehlin [01:51:09] Okay, yeah. Should we show that photo?

Martine Smith [01:51:12] Just to give us a sense. I think that one, that one is okay. Like I said, I told John and Margi, I. We have some pictures from Sarah before she passed, a month before she passed away. I guess I'll say it now. Sarah lived 13 months and 2 days, although she was 6 pounds at birth and reached 12 pounds by the time she was about 5 months when she passed away, she weighed 8 pounds. She was my best description of Sarah before she died those last few months. Really, if you've seen starving children in Africa, mothers holding infants who are skin and bones, who are black. Sarah and I showed Margi and John those pictures, but I think they're too shocking. And they're sort of very personal too. Except she was white and she was missing skin. She had large open wounds. Those pictures are black and white, but you can see the large open wounds. And when she was four months old, she got a runny nose. And of course they tell you to use a bulb to suck the mucus. Well, you use a bulb on the nostril and the skin breaks and you've got an open sore and it gets bigger and bigger. And that's what you can see in that photograph.

John Dehlin [01:52:34] So maybe we'll tell people. Kind of a warning. This graphic is. This. This photo is. Will probably appear or feel graphic, but you've. You included it in the slide deck. So I'll show it now and then you can. Is that okay?

Martine Smith [01:52:47] For some reason, I think the picture of her in the casket is easier to look. It is easier to look at than.

John Dehlin [01:52:53] So this is Sarah in the casket

Martine Smith [01:52:55] because she has a dress on, so you can't see how skin and bone she is. You know, you can't. Can't see just how absolutely. What. She was a skeleton when she died, literally.

John Dehlin [01:53:07] Yeah. Yeah.

Stuart Smith [01:53:09] Well, we did. She seemed to thrive a little bit for the first three or four months because we also had taken her. You had taken her to see.

Martine Smith [01:53:18] Yeah, one of those families. So the. The first counselor in the branch presidency, his wife was a woman. I mentioned earlier that I relied on her testimony because she had a PhD, so she worked for the state of Louisiana education system in special education. So she had connections and she did her best trying to connect us with resources. And one of the things she did is that she found a researcher at Washington University in St. Louis. I don't know if he has died now, but he certainly was around for a long time. Dr. Eugene Bauer, who researched the disease. And so she arranged for me to fly up to St. Louis, it was the end of March 1979, to fly up and spend a week at the hospital for Sarah to be observed, for the staff to show me best practices as they knew them, you know, back then, 40, what, 44 years ago, in terms of bathing her, you know, applying antibiotic ointments, bandaging and all of that. So I spent a week in St. Louis with her. And so we came back with a different schedule. They were bathing her three times a day at the hospital, and they suggested that we do that. So soaking off the bandages three times a day. So Stuart and I did. So we established a routine. 6am Noon, 6pm so Stuart and I got up early and he helped me before work. Our son was generally still asleep at that time. And then we did the 6pm that was seven days a week now, five days a week. Then the Relief Society organized, and each, you know, we had five women who each had their designated day and came to help me bathe Sarah and redo her dressings, her mummy dressings. As soon as Sarah was born, the branch just, you know, it was a new unit of the church. You know, a new unit has to, like, find its way, you know, and relationships have to be built and all of that. Sarah helped to do that. She was the child of the branch. Everybody reached out. We had several couples, and I will mention them by name because they're so important to our lives. At the time, Bill and Ruth McIntyre had lost a daughter who would have been my age. They had lost her of her brain Tumor, diagnosed at 3, passed away at 6. She was blind by then. So they had lost a child and they became surrogate grandparents to our son and to Sarah. Sarah responded to Bill's voice like nothing else. Bill was this gentle giant, this tall, skinny man. Just generous, generous people. The dress Sarah is wearing in the casket, Ruth sewed it for her in a day. The Nielsens had had a very, very sick daughter. She lived, she thrived, she got married and had children, but she had had a very severe illness as a child for several years. They were also like surrogate grandparents. Judith HOLT with the PhD, she's still a friend. And her husband George, he was the other counselor in the branch presidency. Same thing, invaluable to us. And then other couples, the ones who came at noon, who had young children and, like one is still a good friend of mine. She had a little girl two weeks after I had Sarah, that little girl on the 4th, on the 3rd of this month. I'm sorry, Laura, I may get it wrong. Third or fourth of this month. Just turned 44, she was. And she's dear to me because she's

John Dehlin [01:57:38] how old Sarah would have been.

Martine Smith [01:57:39] That's how Sarah. How old Sarah would have been. And so my friend would bring her daughter. The others were in school, and she would bring her daughter and leave her on the living room floor, you know, by then we had car seats in the car seat, and she would come in the bedroom with me to help me. And poor Laura was like screaming her head off, you know, a couple months old. And her mom, you know, wouldn't budge. She just kept helping me. And poor Laura. I was sort of ignored for an hour, so it took about an hour to do so. You would. So you cut the bandages, you know, and then my mother had sent me. That was a godsend. My mother had sent me baby tub from Belgium. And they were that deep, so you didn't want to let her slip. But I could actually keep her in warm water, immersed, you know, and then you waited for the bandages to fall off, but it was painful even, you know, you had to pull them off. So it was an excruciating hour for her.

John Dehlin [01:58:41] So if I can just summarize what I think I hear you saying, Is that. That, you know, we talk about the good and the bad. We try to talk about the good and the bad on Mormon stories, positive and the negative. It sounds like this Baton Rouge branch just was really there for you in a way that maybe many humans on this planet can't understand how a community can rise. And in that sense, maybe you experienced some of the best of Mormonism, some of the best that Mormonism has to offer. Is that right? Is that what you're saying?

Martine Smith [01:59:13] I refer to it as our Camelot years. The branch was dissolved and put back with the ward three and a half years later, but it was. Those were our Camelot years. So, yes, that was an amazing experience. And, you know, you've read other similar stories that when a tragedy, you know, somebody has in a car accident, they become a quadriplegic, you know, in award and the ward rallies and they go. They take turns going, you know, having teams to. To do the physical, to help the family do the physical therapy and all of that. The Mormon Church has a great system for that, to take care of that, without a doubt.

John Dehlin [01:59:55] Yeah. Well, I guess I want to ask you both, is there anything you want to share about how that second death combined of a child, of an infant, combined with this wonderful experience of the branch, how you wrestled with that, how you reconciled things from a Mormon doctrine, a Mormon theology, a Mormon policy perspective? Did it have any bearing on your faith, on your relationship with Heavenly Father, on your prayers, on your commitment to the church, on your thoughts of priesthood power or not? Or is it just sort of like, oh, happen again, let's move on, you know?

Martine Smith [02:00:32] Do you want to go first?

Stuart Smith [02:00:35] Yeah. Well, it. Certainly, it. It began to affect me quite a bit. I was angry. Angry at God because I could not understand, you know, if there was something we were supposed to learn from that first experience, why did we have to go through it again? And so, you know, I'd always had some questions and doubts about. The church and God and all of that kind of thing. So that began to just kind of. I thought about it more and I, you know, the anger was there. It took a long time to go away. I don't know. That's. I guess what happened. I was. I was released from the branch. When they dissolved the branch before that. Yeah, our branch presidency was released, and then they wanted to call me to be the elders quorum president. The stake president, I think, issued that call, and I. I turned them down, said, no, I'm not ready for that. And, you know, that sort of a shock to Them.

John Dehlin [02:02:08] And was that because it's hard to have a child, a second child die, or is that because you were angry at God or something? Some combination.

Stuart Smith [02:02:16] Some combination, I think. But, you know, I just wasn't. I just wasn't ready to make that step. And I think that began a long period of retrenchment for me of just kind of. Mentally checking out, if you will.

Martine Smith [02:02:41] Yes, he said last week he was PIMO before.

John Dehlin [02:02:45] And tell our non Mormon listeners what

Martine Smith [02:02:46] that means physically and mentally out.

John Dehlin [02:02:49] So how long? Because you end up as bishop at some point. So how long were you physically and mentally out, Stuart?

Stuart Smith [02:02:55] Ten years.

John Dehlin [02:02:56] Okay. And so how did you cope in those 10 years? Just work or.

Stuart Smith [02:03:03] Well, work. I mean, I came to church. I was attending.

Martine Smith [02:03:05] Yeah, we were. I mean, we were there every Sunday, and he, you know, he had callings, but, like, he didn't hold a temple recommend during that time. Didn't. Obviously didn't go to the temple. I would, you know, there was no temple nearby. But, you know, if we were in Salt Lake, I'd go to the temple.

Stuart Smith [02:03:20] Stop paying tithing, of course.

John Dehlin [02:03:22] Oh, you did?

Stuart Smith [02:03:22] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:03:23] Oh, wow.

Stuart Smith [02:03:25] Hell, yes.

John Dehlin [02:03:26] That's a big deal for a Mormon to stop paying tithing anyway.

Stuart Smith [02:03:30] But, you know, Martine, I want. I was. I wanted to support her. I wanted to be there for her. I wanted to, you know, I still like to socialize with the members and all that. So I continued to go. And I don't know how much you understood about what I was feeling at that time or during.

Martine Smith [02:03:54] Yeah, I don't think I did. When he turned down the Elders Quorum presidency, that was. Yeah, like, I came unglued, you know, when I read comments and posts now from, you know, from often men, but sometimes from women, you know, who tell their spouse now. He didn't tell me that. He didn't say. I no longer believe. It's just like, I don't want to be Elders Quorum president. I don't want to spend my evenings on the phone calling the Elders Quorum members to help out with the move next week. I just, you know, and Sarah had not been gone all that long, and he served in that branch prison the whole time we had her. So in a sense, we, you know, we hadn't really had time to properly mourn and, you know, get our family, our little family back together. We were making decisions about, you know, he was dead set. We're not having any more children. It took me a year and a half after Sarah passed away to get on the Same page. You know, I was only 25. I just. I was still looking around, and my friends were still having babies, you know, and I still sort of wanted to have another baby. But about a year and a half after she passed away, then I. You know, we were on the same page where that's concerned. But, you know, we did mention one of the members of the presidency of the 70 came to one of our state conferences, and our branch president said, would you like to talk to him? Because they knew we were struggling over whether to have any more children. You know, there's a church policy. And so we said yes. And so the Saturday of State conference, we met with this elder who shall remain nameless.

John Dehlin [02:05:42] And this is the general authority.

Martine Smith [02:05:44] Yeah. So he's a member of the presidency of the 7th.

John Dehlin [02:05:47] And you requested this meeting?

Martine Smith [02:05:48] Well, I don't think we did.

Stuart Smith [02:05:49] It was suggested to us.

Martine Smith [02:05:51] It was offered to us. You know, he's coming to visit. We know you're. You know, because they were our close friends, you know, they knew we were struggling over how to move forward. And so I don't remember very much of that meeting. But then later, we did initiate, when we were visiting Salt Lake, maybe within the next year, we did initiate a visit with him. And Same. Same General Thornton, Same, exact same person, but in his office. And anyway, we each have a sort of a funny, sad story that I think bears like. I know I told you, John, that I think, you know, people are sort of amused by it.

John Dehlin [02:06:35] So, okay, so this is within how many months of your child dying?

Martine Smith [02:06:40] Oh, within a couple of years. It was still in the branch, I think, so it was. Yeah, within a couple years.

John Dehlin [02:06:45] So you come to Salt Lake and you want to meet with.

Martine Smith [02:06:47] So we met with him in, you know, at the Stake center in Baton Rouge. And then. So this one I know happened in Salt Lake because I. I can. I can still visualize that office. And. And so he advised us not to do anything permanent, like not to have surgery. He advised me not to have my tubes tight. And he proposed a hypothetical. He said, what if, you know, you're young, what if one of you were to die, and then the other one remarried and wanted to have more children? And if you have your tube side, you know, it's goodbye to that. Okay, I'll say something to that after. Do you want to tell what you remember? Which they must have been alone, because I don't. I. I don't have any recollection of that, but it makes sense.

Stuart Smith [02:07:41] Well, so after the death of our daughter at Some time later, Martine's thought, and she wanted me to consider that if we prayed about it and if we prayed sincerely and long enough and showed, you know, enough faith or whatever, that we could get a. An answer from God about whether we should have another child or not. You know, we weren't. She wasn't asking, well, let's. Let's have a child. She was asking, let's. Let's pray and see if we should or shouldn't. And I was done. And I told her that. I said, no, I'm done. We are not having any more children. I'm not going to take that risk. We have one child, a healthy child. We need to focus and concentrate on raising that child. And I'm not going to even pray about it because I don't. I wouldn't believe or trust any feeling or answer I got anyway. So, I mean, that was pretty harsh, probably for her to hear that, but that's the way I felt at the

Martine Smith [02:09:01] time, you know, and our son had been traumatized. He was two and a half when his sister was born. He was three and a half when she passed away. Actually, I kept a journal after she died. And, you know, he referred to her. I mean, he was two and a half. He was aware of her. You know, he would come near her crib. He knew she was sick, and, you know, he couldn't touch her, you know, after a while. But, you know, he spent time with babysitters, you know, in the. In the branch at the time. And he never reacted very well to babysitters, even before she was born. So. So, you know, he had been traumatized. And I mean, Stuart was right in saying, we need to concentrate on him. We need to focus on him.

Stuart Smith [02:09:43] So. So at any rate, then I know that I met with this general authority in Baton Rouge at the Stake center in Baton Rouge alone. I mean, I don't know exactly. I forget exactly how that worked out, but. And I don't remember all the things he said to him. But basically, you know, some of the issue was, look, this is.

John Dehlin [02:10:11] In the first meeting.

Stuart Smith [02:10:13] Yeah, this is the first.

John Dehlin [02:10:14] Okay, okay.

Stuart Smith [02:10:15] We're struggling. Our marriage is struggling because, you know, we don't want any. You know, we're not supposed to use birth control, but we were. And we're. But we're not, you know, we're not. We're not going to risk having more children. And I don't remember other things he said. The one thing he said, this stood out to me. I just absolutely, you know, jaw dropping moment is he said, well, similar to what he told Martine, I guess, at some point, well, don't I advise you to counsel you not to do anything permanent, such as, you know, getting a vasectomy. And then I said, okay. And he said, because the brethren have talked about it. The brethren have talked about it. And I got the impression that this was fairly recent. I don't know if it was or not. But, you know, the brethren have talked about it, and we're not sure if that function will be restored in, in the resurrection. If a man voluntarily, you know, undergoes that procedure, if that will be restored. And I just, I looked at him. I don't, I don't know what. I had never heard that before. I'd never heard anything about, you know, TK Smoothie or anything like that. None of that had ever.

Martine Smith [02:11:55] That came later.

Stuart Smith [02:11:56] That came later. But I was absolutely, I could, I was speechless. I didn't know what to say.

John Dehlin [02:12:02] Why?

Stuart Smith [02:12:03] Because it just seems so ridiculous to me. And the idea that they even met and talked about it was just, I was just, you know, bowled over by that, even that concept.

John Dehlin [02:12:18] Well, there's the, there's a couple layers for me. There's the ridiculousness of that conversation about 1580 year old white Idahoans in Utah and sitting around the council of, with their chocolates, sitting around the council of the highest level of the Salt Lake City Temple, spending their time talking about whether or not God restores vasectomies in the resurrection. I mean, that's absurd and that's kind of comical. But what's dark and like diabolical or cynical or sinister for me is to think that you too had been through two. I hope you're not offended by the word gruesome, like two gruesome deaths of your infants. You're there counseling with someone that's supposed to be a representative of Jesus or of God, and instead of him just saying like, this is heavy. Do what you think is right. This is a personal decision. He's, he's pulling that theoretical, absurd, speculative conversation and, and, and applying it to your very serious, real tragic lives and then telling you what you should and shouldn't be doing with very serious consequences that would come or not come from your following his advice as a, as a leader. I don't mean to be too serious, but.

Martine Smith [02:13:46] No, I, in the five years, I, I, you know, I failed to mention that I also had two miscarriages between our second son and our daughter. So in the first five years of our marriage, or less, I had five pregnancies. So getting pregnant was not difficult for me. Okay. So, you know, by then I was on the pill. But even the pill is not 100%. As Stuart says, I'm not the best at counting anything. And so during the years following Sarah's passing, there were at least twice where I thought I might be pregnant. There was a strong chance that I was pregnant. One of those times, actually, one of those couples that I mentioned earlier, the older couples, we confided in them and they came over and he gave me a blessing that if I was pregnant, I would miscarry. And you can't find more faithful couple than Louise and Ross. I won't mention their last name. To the point where Louise. Louise would preach that if you got married and did not intend to allow nature to take its course immediately it was legalized prostitution. I mean, they were that strict about you had the babies. But he came and blessed me that I would miscarry. And whether I miscarried or whether whatever, I wasn't pregnant that time. The church. Yes.

John Dehlin [02:15:28] So the hypothetical that back to the general authority. Do you mind?

Martine Smith [02:15:30] Yeah, no, I. Actually, that's where I'm going to go back. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:15:33] Yeah.

Martine Smith [02:15:33] So the. His. The hypothetical for me was if I got my tubes tied, but you know, even, you know, it would be permanent and if I remarried, I wouldn't be able to have more children. And, you know, I didn't question it that much the first few years, but as Stuart just described, the loss of two children and the fear of another pregnancy were a huge stress on our marriage. It was a huge stress on our intimacy every single month. Even on the pill, it was a huge stress. So this Elder X was presenting us with a hypothetical that might never happen. And Obviously here we are, 68 and 70. It didn't. For a marriage that might never happen. While this eternal marriage married in the temple. Marriage that he should have have done, he should have wanted to do everything possible to preserve was actually falling apart. And honestly, I was so believing and so whatever back in those days, it didn't occur to me for several years until. Do you want to read. We said we would read one of the. You know, the church had of a policy that still does on birth control in the handbook. This one is from the 1969 handbook, but it is taken from a Joseph F. Smith quote from like 1909 or something like that. But it was still valid decades later.

John Dehlin [02:17:11] You want me to read it?

Martine Smith [02:17:12] Yeah, if you want to read it.

John Dehlin [02:17:14] Okay. So we're going to be reading where husband and wife. Yeah. Mormon Church policy regarding birth control from back in the time you were thinking about this stuff, it says birth control. And for and for people that have never been Mormon, the Mormon Church has always had this huge thick binder or set of binders that did try and provide answers or guidance or policy for priesthood leadership for every possible issue. And so back then there would have been things, a passage on abortion, a passage on, you know, prostitution, a person, John being gay, a passage, you know, and, and bishops would look to this to then know how to counsel their parishioners. So. And it's changed over the years dramatically in ways that are really, really noteworthy in terms of like how people made very important decisions. But so this would have been the birth. This would have been the birth control section of the Church. Handbook of instructions. Back then it says we have been commanded to multiply and reprint, replenish the earth, that we may have joy and rejoice in our posterity. That actually comes from the temple ceremony. That there's a reference to the temple ceremony in there. And Adam and Eve, second paragraph, where husband and wife enjoy health and vigor and are free from impurities that would be entailed upon their posterity. It is contrary to the teachings of the church to artificially curtail or prevent the birth of children. Those who practice birth control will reap disappointment by and by. Now, on the one hand, that's horrible. On the other hand, it seems like there's a loophole in there that might have applied in your minds to you at the time. Yes or no?

Martine Smith [02:19:08] Yes, but I'll let Stewart address the.

Stuart Smith [02:19:10] Okay, yeah, there was a loophole for us, but it was, I was offended by the language impurities, like somehow we were contaminated or somehow we were lesser. Just it felt very, you know, demeaning.

Martine Smith [02:19:31] Condescending, Condescending.

Stuart Smith [02:19:32] And I mean, it didn't stop me from, you know, I mean, it didn't make me not want to use birth control. It's just that I felt like that's very demeaning. Why do they couch it that way?

Martine Smith [02:19:48] Yeah, I'm going to read just. This one is from David O', McKay, which is basically the same, except he uses slightly different words really. Where husband and wife are healthy and free from inherited weaknesses and diseases that might be transmitted with injury to their offspring. The thing is, you know, this is where we know, where we can see everything.

John Dehlin [02:20:14] The use of contraceptives is to be condemned.

Martine Smith [02:20:17] This is where you can see also that they're not forward thinking, that they don't know anything before science knows it with genetics now we know that pretty much everybody passes on something undesirable to their offsprings, right? There's all kinds of things. Some of it may be mental illness, so it's not obvious that they birth. But you know, to think that because your children have 10 fingers and 10 toes and their skin is intact somehow you have great genes that didn't affect them negatively is just today in 2023 with what we know about genetics is very short sighted and yes, but it was an out, you know, I mean it's not what we used, you know, because by then we knew that, you know, we knew we did not want to bring another, we didn't want to chance it. So. And it took me a little longer to arrive there.

John Dehlin [02:21:15] But I guess I'll just say where the rubber meets the road for me is that Mormons hold their leaders, especially the quorum of the fifth, you know, the first presidency, quorum of the 12, the handbook of instructions. We're all led to believe that this is God and Jesus telling us all how our lives should be lived and how the church needs to be operated. And you know, it should mean a lot to our viewers to read super harsh, offensive, prescriptive, inappropriate rules. It should be shocking enough to see that those, any, those types of rules were ever given at any point to anyone, under any circumstances. But then where that becomes particularly problematic is if you study these handbook of instructions over time you see that they're constantly changing. You would see a point where homosexuality was described as, you know, similar to bestiality and was a choice and that, you know, that the, that the gay man should be encouraged to marry a straight woman or get conversion therapy. You know, and I'm kind of making this up, but the point is or never have an abortion or you know, all these sorts of really strong inappropriate guidelines that really affected people's lives for decades when they not only should have never been given, but the fact that they've been changing and continue to change constantly shows that they were never from God or Jesus to begin with. And that's why it's a case of, you know, when the church goes wrong, it's when we, we were taught to put way too much trust and confidence in, in our leaders as mouthpieces of God. And that can often have real consequences in the lives of the people who trust in their Mormon leadership. And I think that was your case

Martine Smith [02:23:11] because the church's position on birth control in the handbook and I think it's been at least 20 years that you know, since it changed to. It's the number and timing of children is between the couple.

John Dehlin [02:23:27] Yeah, right. That's what it is with.

Martine Smith [02:23:30] No, you know, and we shouldn't judge each other in those decisions. That's another.

Stuart Smith [02:23:35] And BYU's insurance is now going to pay for birth control.

John Dehlin [02:23:39] And that was just like last week.

Martine Smith [02:23:40] Last week. Like. Like you don't have to have five children. Is it four or five prior, you had to have. If you were a church employee, you had to have four or five children before they would cover birth control.

Margi Dehlin [02:23:51] So. Wow.

John Dehlin [02:23:55] Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean. And before we move on to your next point, Margi wanted to ask her.

Grief, Marriage Strain, and Deciding Not to Have More Children

Margi Dehlin [02:24:02] I just wanted to connect to your marriage story for a minute, especially around now, this second loss of a child. And you, I think Martine, were talking a little bit about, you know, this creating marital tumult for you both. Would you say that at this point that your grief and loss did, like, was this one of the lower times, would you say, or harder times in your marriage overall? That's kind of my first question. And then I have a follow up. How would you talk about it?

Stuart Smith [02:24:40] Yeah, I would. I would say so. I mean, I can remember when we lost our son, our first one, I don't know, sometime not long after, we were at my parents. And I don't know how it happened, but anyway, the father of one of my good friends growing up in high school and so on had called and made me about something else, but he wanted to talk to me. And now he was a federal judge on the bench. So very, you know, a very capable man and very kind. And he said, I'm so sorry for your loss. And one of the things he said was sometimes tragedy like that will draw you closer together. And I think I felt that way with the first one, but with our daughter, with the second one, we were so exhausted physically and emotionally, mentally, that it's hard to support your partner when you're stooped over with your own pain and grief.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:54] Yeah, that makes sense.

Martine Smith [02:25:56] And we all process grief differently. And so even though you've been through the same exact experience, physically, mentally, emotionally, you know, you're in different places.

Margi Dehlin [02:26:09] Yeah. How did you, if you can remember, how did you process grief differently? Do you recall that? Like, I know for many people it sounded like a little bit that you alluded to with your loss of Nathaniel, that there was kind of like, let's get back to work and, you know, and doing. And that is a way of coping. And for other people, they can go inward and kind of, you know, Lose external connection with the people around them. Do you remember? And I've. I've heard those coping differences oftentimes are really key as to what it means to a marriage in the aftermath of loss. How would you guys talk about that if you remember your coping and how it differed?

Stuart Smith [02:26:57] Well, I just know that I was. I was pretty angry and I'm sure that must have carried over to some extent.

Margi Dehlin [02:27:06] Yeah.

Stuart Smith [02:27:07] And the other thing is I was just. I was ready to move on. In other words, we had a life. We had, you know, a family and a child to raise, and I was just. I was ready to move on. And I don't know exactly how you felt.

Martine Smith [02:27:31] I eventually went to counseling, but it was several years later. I didn't go until like the mid-80s, I think, so like five years later. And I think part of it was also a mother daughter relationship with my mother who was visiting from Belgium. But, you know, I did get to process grief at that point.

Stuart Smith [02:27:52] I think she could feel me, though, pulling away from the church and from

Martine Smith [02:27:56] that sort of thing, and that was scary.

Stuart Smith [02:28:00] It scared her. It was. I don't think we talked about it a lot, but under the undercurrent was there.

Martine Smith [02:28:08] Yeah, you could feel it. You know, he taught. I. I reminded him he'd forgotten. He taught gospel doctrine, Old Testament. I remember. I don't know how long you taught, but. But you know, he was like ward financial clerk, he was assistant scoutmaster and things like that. So we were there every Sunday. But he was distant from anything spiritual. I'd say that's also what we got. You know, maybe we'll talk about that later. But, you know, when we started reading Sunstone, that couple Bill and Ruth that I mentioned, you know, up until then, like I said with Nathaniel, things had fallen into place so neatly. And then with Sarah, you know, she lived 13 months. The last four months, you could tell she was dying. Just didn't know how long it would take. It took four months. You know, she had done a stint at the hospital and they said, you know, there's no reason why you can't take her home. Really, we're just bathing her. That's all we're doing and feeding her. You can do that at home. So they actually, our insurance provided us with a nurse that came every morning for four hours and did the bathing because I couldn't do it anymore. By that time, the exhaustion, she had changed so much in the hospital. She was there for two months and she had, you know, she had lost weight. We'd gone through like, ointments would make her squirm, and she couldn't. And so she would move and move, and it would just tear up her skin more. And it was just. It was just pure hell. And so when they told me I could take her home, I just started falling apart. And our insurance, you know, our doctor said, we'll provide nursing care. So the nurse. We had a black nurse, her first name was Geneva. And she came four hours every morning, seven days a week. And anyway, that was. You know, I said something to one of those older friends. I said, you know, we're bringing her home to die. And she said, no, think of it as you're bringing her home to love her. And so that's what we tried to do. I would wait. You know, it was Louisiana, so it was warmer in the winter, and I would wait for Stuart to get home from work, and I would. I would wrap her, and I would walk the sidewalk with her and sing to her. You know, she wouldn't move anything. She knew moving hurt, so I'd hold her tight. But we. We held her the entire. The entire time. So it was a big difference. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:30:43] Yeah.

Stuart Smith [02:30:44] And of course, I had. I didn't have a temple recommend, so I don't know. Did you ever go to the temple on your own without me during that?

Martine Smith [02:30:53] Well, I'm trying to remember when the Dallas temple was built.

Stuart Smith [02:30:56] Like, we didn't have a nearby temple, so it wasn't like, you know, we were going every month or something like that.

Martine Smith [02:31:02] And there wasn't that emphasis on, you know, Howard Hunter is the one who put that emphasis on, even if you're not wearing your temple, always keep your temple recommend current. So that wasn't that. There wasn't that. That push back then. So I had one, but he didn't. I'm not even sure I knew you didn't have one.

Margi Dehlin [02:31:21] Yeah. Yeah.

Martine Smith [02:31:23] So.

Margi Dehlin [02:31:24] Yeah. Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:31:27] So let's.

Stuart Smith [02:31:28] What.

John Dehlin [02:31:29] Let's go ahead. Anything else about your children and these unfortunate deaths that. That you want to discuss before we wrap up this part and go to the next?

Martine Smith [02:31:41] I think. I think I'll just tell that eventually I did get my tubes died. It was my decision. I'm not going to tell the whole story, but I didn't even discuss it with Stuart. I just announced to Stuart that I was going to have it done because the stress on our marriage was just too much. And I had just gone again through a couple of weeks where I thought I was pregnant, and I hadn't told him, and I couldn't Imagine ever telling him that I was pregnant because I knew it would kill him. So, yeah. So a few Years later, in 1986, I just had this scare for two weeks where I thought I was pregnant. I didn't talk to him about it. I saw the doctor and I said, okay, if the test comes back negative and I'm not pregnant, I said, we're scheduling a tubal. And when he got home that night, the test was negative. And I told him I had gone back to school. I had started school at lsu, and so I had spring break in March. And I said, I'm getting it done and we're not talking about it. I haven't prayed about it. I'm not going to pray about it. This is, you know, this is going to destroy our marriage if I don't do this. So was done.

Margi Dehlin [02:32:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:32:49] Okay. Does that conclude this part of your story?

Martine Smith [02:32:53] Yes. Just one more thing. A few years ago, the son of that general authority lived in our ward. We lived in the same ward. Our wards were combined or next. The award next door. So for years. And he's really nice guy. For years I thought, I should tell him. I should tell him. Should tell him. And so one day we were walking out of sacrament meeting and I said, you know, years ago, Stuart and I went to talk to your dad about this marital problem we were having that was very serious. And I said, your dad told us to do or not to do a certain thing. I said, you know what? After a few years, I went and did that very thing your father had told us not to do. And I said that was the best decision I could have made. And he looked at me and he had been a mission president. He's not a general authority. But, you know, the son had been.

Margi Dehlin [02:33:37] Yeah.

Martine Smith [02:33:38] So the sun.

Margi Dehlin [02:33:39] Yeah.

Martine Smith [02:33:39] He looked at me and he said, yeah, a lot of times they get it wrong. We can close on that because that is just a recurring theme of. There is no real inspiration. I've gotten pushback from friends, but they just wing it. And sometimes they get it right and a lot of times they get it wrong and people get hurt.

John Dehlin [02:34:07] Yeah. Sometimes it's helpful, sometimes it's benign, and sometimes it's deeply harmful.

Martine Smith [02:34:13] Yeah. Sometimes it can be a matter of life and death. And frankly, if I had gotten pregnant, I don't know what would have happened to us. But I knew we could not have another child. And yet I would have had to decide whether to have an abortion or not. Fortunately, I wasn't put in that position. But that's. That's another thought that's haunted me over the years. Yeah. So I just want to go back a few months. She's born in January of 1979. We talked about those early months in August of that year. She's hospitalized, she's not thriving, she, she's losing weight. Lots of skin breakdowns, lots of blistering large sores. When you have so much of your body, over 50%, 75% of the body in open sores, all of the calories are going to try to heal those sores. So they're not going to actually helping the child or the individual when they live longer to gain weight. So she's starting to get very thin. So she's at the hospital and while she's there, they take over her care. Obviously. Stuart and I had been bathing her several times a day, three times a day for a number of months and bandaging her. It sort of looked like mummies. You bandaged the arms, you bandaged the legs, you bandaged the torso. So the nursing staff of course, takes that over. So I go to the hospital every day, Stuart goes in the evening and the weeks pass and eventually October rolls around and the hospital says, you know, there just isn't anything that we're doing that you can't do at home. So we're going to send her home and I just sort of break down, fall apart because I haven't done the day to day care in two months. I haven't bathed her in two months. And I'm not seeing how I'm going to start again because she's in such worse shape. So our insurance offers to send us a nurse four hours a day. So every morning for the rest of Sarah's life we had a nurse come from 8 until noon. She gave her her medications. She's mostly an antibiotic and some experimental drug that didn't help at all.

Stuart Smith [02:36:54] But.

Martine Smith [02:36:56] And so fall, you know, we go through the fall and sometime in December they recommend that she be put on oxygen. So they bring oxygen tanks and a tent to put over her crib and she's getting oxygen that way every day. We bring her into our breakfast room. We still have a pack and play and. And she lays there and we talk to her and we take care of her as much as you can do for those children. I had to look up the date. I was pretty sure it was January 1st and it was during the Orange bowl. And I remember that she's in her packet play and we're watching the game and it was Oklahoma and I can't remember who the other team was. And suddenly we realized she has stopped breathing and we both panic. And she used to have a lot of mucus. But one thing, for the last five months of her life, she was fed with an eyedropper. She could no longer suck on a bottle, so we fed her with an eye dropper, which is another reason she was losing weight. It was really hard to get that much formula into. So she's, you know, we're feeding her with an eyedropper and she produces a lot of mucus in the mouth. And so she starts coughing. And the only thing you can do, literally is take a tissue and go in her mouth and pull out the mucus so she can breathe. So we do that and she still can't breathe. And so we rush her. We look at each other, I think, and we wonder whether we really need to put her back under the oxygen. But we decide to that decision, you know, those. When you are in the situation where you can actually decide to let somebody go, if you've been there, and I know others have been there, it's just, you know, absolutely heart wrenching because you have a life in your hands. So we rush her to her bedroom, we turn on the oxygen, and then we wonder if we made the right choice because she's got just more suffering to do. So her birthday comes and goes. I'm pretty sure we didn't have cake or celebrated in any way. And there's an incident toward the end of January. Our nurse, her name was Geneva, she was black and she was very differential to me, which really bothered me because she was more educated than I was. I didn't have a college degree. She was an rn and I encouraged her to call me Martine. And she would. I was Mrs. Smith the entire time that she worked for us. And she would come in the morning and do the meds and then she would go in Sarah's room and she would bathe her. And I would have nothing to do with her. I knew it was horrible, but I just couldn't do it anymore. And toward the end of January, I said, what if we just stopped her medications, especially the antibiotic, and let nature take its course? And she said, I can't do that. She said, if you want to do that, I can't do that. So she quit. And it was a Saturday or a Friday. So Saturday came and I was going to have to do the bath and I sent Stuart and our son away to have lunch at Burger King. And I got the table ready and the tub ready.

Margi Dehlin [02:40:42] And.

Martine Smith [02:40:43] And I started cutting the bandages. Her legs, her arms, her torso. And then you would lower her into the water and move her gently until the bandages soaked off. But it wasn't easy and it was painful for her. By then she had strictures, meaning she couldn't move her. She couldn't open her arms anymore, her elbows were stuck, her. Her knees, the same thing. And. Before I put her in the water and seeing her like, I had not seen her completely undressed in months. She was never dressed. Like she was just in bandages. You didn't put clothes on them because it's just too hard. But still I hadn't seen her fully undressed and I knew I was hurting her. And I just started bawling. And I went into the closet and I screamed, I screamed to God. I bawled, I cried all that I felt I needed to cry. And then I decided I needed to suck it up. I said, you're going to hurt her and there is no other way, but it has to be done. So I could came out of the closet and literally disassociated myself from what I was doing. I just couldn't think. This is my daughter. I'm hurting her. I'm her mother. Why am I doing this? Why is this happening? I just. I had a job to do and I did it. And I called Geneva and I said, you've got to come back. I'll do whatever you want. You've got to come back. I can't do this anymore. And she did. On Monday, she was back. And one day, you know, it was February, early February, and I was looking into, you know, spring and summer, and I said something to Geneva. I said, well, this summer, blah, blah, I can't even remember. And she looked at me and she said, Mrs. Smith, she's not going to be here this summer. And to me, it had felt like, this is going to go on forever. This is never going to end. She's always going to be like this. She's always going to weigh eight pounds. There is. There's not ever going to be any change. She had been so awful, but stationary for weeks. So on Tuesday 19th February, Geneva came in. She went into. Into Sarah's room, and then she came and got her her meds and she went back to start getting everything ready to bathe her. And at 9 o', clock, I heard her coming out of the bedroom, rushing out of the bedroom and calling out Martine, which she'd never done before. So I knew that something was wrong. And she was in the Hallway. She had Sarah resting on her. And Sarah was gray. And I said, what do you think? What should we do? Should we give her oxygen? And she said, let's just let her go. And so we did. She went. I got on the phone and called Stuart, who remembers the call. And he rushed home because it was Mardi Gras, which is a holiday, state holiday in Louisiana. A lot of our dearest friends weren't around. They were at a parade somewhere. So there was the one friend that I mentioned in part two, our friend Judith, who was. Who was around. And I called her and she drove over immediately. I don't know if she got. I think you got home first, but I don't think I called her right away. But you got home first. And she told me she drove so fast on the freeway that her little Chevette that she was driving at the time nearly fell apart. Anyway, she's still a dear friend. I made a post on Sunday with a couple of pictures of Sarah and this friend, among many others, but always comments that Sarah will always be a part of their family, too. So the thing, the lesson that we learned with Sarah is that there was no lesson. There was no formula. There had been a formula with Nathaniel. You know, we prayed, we fasted. I had this feeling he was going to pass away. And then the events from the day I had the feeling, you know, took less than two weeks before he passed away, literally as an answer to a fast, you know, a ward and family wide fast. You know, it just seemed like if you do, you know, if you follow the formula, you'll get the result. And with Sarah, you know, she lingered for 13 months. The last. None of it was good. None of it was happy. I've had people sometimes tell me, well, just remember the good days. And I have to take a deep breath and realize they didn't live it. They have no idea what they're talking about. They don't know anything about the disease. But no, there were no happy days. Like I said last time, she never smiled. Even though at six weeks she wasn't that bad off. She never smiled, she never giggled. So it helped us. I think it helped transition us into being able to look at life, at the many gray shades of our life experience, that it wasn't black and white. The answer wasn't always just right there, waiting to be discovered.

John Dehlin [02:47:54] I'm so sorry. And I can't even imagine what that would be like as a parent. Thank you for sharing something.

Martine Smith [02:48:01] Thank you for letting us share.

John Dehlin [02:48:03] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:48:04] Is this kind of one of Those experiences, too, where it kind of took you outside the model of, you know, oftentimes people around loss or really hard experiences will say things like about meaning or finding meaning or, you know, finding this sense of. Of purpose in, you know, throughout a certain time. Was it kind of one of those instances, too, where you were like, how did you feel about when people spoke to you in that way about meaning or, you know, some of those things? Was it. Did it take you kind of outside of that, where it was like, no, no, no meaning in that? For me,

Martine Smith [02:48:50] I don't know that it was meaning, but certainly, you know, being. Being told and having learned through lessons, everything from the missionary lessons just a few years earlier, literally, to, you know, five.

Stuart Smith [02:49:08] Five.

Martine Smith [02:49:08] No, what was it? Okay. Yeah. Ten years earlier, you know, that there is a plan, that there is a reason that we may very well have agreed to this. We did. She did that. We will raise her in the next life. Just as you have laid them in the grave. There's a talk by. It's like maybe a 19th century one, but, you know, from one of the authorities, as you have laid them in the grave, you will receive them to raise them in the next life. You know, there are lessons to be learned. My patriarchal blessing says I'll have special experiences to teach me about the plan of life, of salvation. I clung to that. Okay. This was a tough one. You sure you couldn't have taught me in a different way? You know, what didn't we learn? We discussed that last time. What didn't we learn the first time? What was the lesson in this four, you know, with this one? And why 13 months? You know, what are we, just slow learners? You know, why. Why does this child have to suffer as much as. As she did for us? Apparently to learn something? I don't think she had to learn anything. There is this horrible quote. I mean, you can find all kinds of horrible quotes, but I think it was Orson Pratt. So it dates back to the 19th century, but there's a child, and I hope I didn't tell that in part two, but there's a child that's dying in. In great pain. And there are people around and. And they ask Orson Pratt, why is this child in such great pain? And he says, well, you know, they are earning their place in the celestial kingdom. Well, that's even false doctrine. You know, since we say children are innocent from the beginning of the world, and if they die before the age of eight, before accountability, they are promised the celestial kingdom. No trials or anything. Obviously. Obviously, she had trials. So it can be very confusing, frankly. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:51:22] And there's always the Mormon justifications, like they needed her in the. In the spirit prison to do missionary work, or you guys, again, like you needed to learn some lessons kind of at her expense, or somehow she's learning some profound lesson by suffering. I can imagine just all of those explanations falling short. Is that true for you, Stuart?

Stuart Smith [02:51:46] Yeah, I think so. I mean, you know, there were a lot of platitudes, and it was hard. It was hard. I remember one of the feelings I had when Martine talked about it, you know, that we had to bathe her multiple times a day. And back when we were doing it, I wasn't there every time because I was working or whatever. But the times I was there, my job was essentially to hold her head above water. Well, the bandage is soaked off, and Martine cleaned her up. And I remember once, more than once, you know, the thought came to me, why don't I just let her head slip under. I was shocked that I could even have such thoughts, but they were there.

John Dehlin [02:53:01] And you felt that way why?

Stuart Smith [02:53:04] Because I. I couldn't stand to see her continue to suffer.

John Dehlin [02:53:12] It seems senseless.

Stuart Smith [02:53:13] Right, right. So when. When she did pass away, you know, there was a sense of relief, but there was also a sense of anger for me. I think I mentioned that last time that I was angry. I was angry about the idea that we were supposed to learn something from this and why. Why would we have to do this a second time?

John Dehlin [02:53:43] Yeah. And. And one of the, you know, one of the questions that often emerges kind of less from a Mormon perspective, but more from a secular perspective is why would. Why would a loving, all powerful God allow this type of suffering to happen? Surely he's. Jesus performed miracles. He could have cured the baby. Did the people around Jesus's time not need the same lessons you did? Clearly, God and Jesus are powerful enough to cure sicknesses, and they care, and they don't want to see a kid suffer. So why would they allow the. Why would a loving God who's all powerful allow the suffering to happen?

Martine Smith [02:54:36] Right. And of course, you know, we happens every day, all the time. And that's, you know, for those of us who question the existence of God is. And especially why he does seem to intervene, or at least people think he does in some instances in their lives. And yet, you know, you have the most recent bits of news that we're watching now, whether it's the war in Ukraine, whether it's, you know, the earthquake in Turkey and Syria, you know, Whether it's the children and the children and the adults in, you know, in some Eastern African countries suffer from drought. I mean, we have a drought. We complain about the drought, but, you know, we have water to drink, and then when it rains, we say, oh, that was an answer to prayers. That was an answer to the fast. You know, we fasted a year and a half ago as a state, or at least some people did. So all of this, know, this winter, certainly, you know, we have earned God's favor in Utah, and we've got this water now. So, you know, not to mention the great powder to ski on while,

Margi Dehlin [02:55:58] you

Martine Smith [02:55:58] know, what's wrong with the way the African mothers are praying for water and food for their children?

John Dehlin [02:56:05] It's easy to say, well, they're praying in the wrong church.

Martine Smith [02:56:09] Boy, what a God. Can you imagine? That's the kind of God I really don't want anything to do with.

John Dehlin [02:56:17] And I guess at the time, though, this is back in the early 80s, did you even allow yourself to go there about why. Why God? You know, or to even start saying, maybe God isn't what I thought? Or did you not. Did. Did the Mormon indoctrination kind of not even allow you to have those thoughts yet? And I want for both of you,

Martine Smith [02:56:40] I. I would say I didn't. I didn't go there back then.

John Dehlin [02:56:43] Yeah, that's advanced. Yeah, it's advanced stuff, Stuart.

Stuart Smith [02:56:49] Well, I would say, you know, I'd already thought about that to some extent. I mean, I allowed myself to think different thoughts, but I always tried to come back to where I had been, what I had been taught, what I'd been raised on.

John Dehlin [02:57:06] Yeah.

Stuart Smith [02:57:07] So I do remember that. I think we maybe covered this a little bit last in the last part, but. But the issue for us later became, do we have another child? Do we try to have more children?

John Dehlin [02:57:22] Yeah.

Stuart Smith [02:57:23] And at that point, Martine was still willing and thought, and I think sincerely believed for a little bit anyway, that if we prayed together and if we asked the Lord what we should do, that we could get an answer whether it was to have children or not. And I can remember telling her, no, I'm done. I don't think even if we prayed and thought we got an answer, it wouldn't convince me. I'm done. We have one child remaining. He's been neglected. I was worried about how, you know, the attention that he was receiving or not receiving. And I just felt we needed to focus our lives on raising that child and doing the best we could and helping others.

John Dehlin [02:58:34] Yeah.

Stuart Smith [02:58:38] The one thing maybe that I felt like and I don't know that I thought about this I certainly didn't think about at the time, but later and maybe it'll figure in later to my story, but I felt like it had prepared us to help and to understand what others were suffering and how we could maybe help them without, you know, the usual platitudes, but really something more substantial.

John Dehlin [02:59:18] Yeah.

Stuart Smith [02:59:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:59:20] There's no question if you suffer greatly, you have more empathy for other people's suffering. That's always going to be.

Margi Dehlin [02:59:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:59:26] A benefit or a side effect of suffering. Thank you, Stuart. Thanks, Marc.

Martine Smith [02:59:32] At the same time, you have to keep an open mind that not everybody I mean, that's that that seems to be obvious, but not everyone responds to similar trauma in the same way. And you have to be you have to be sensitive to to that fact.

Church Discipline, Sunstone, and Growing Shelf Items

Part 3 of 3 · Ep. 1742

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Well, so let's. There's going to be so much to cover, but let's try and touch on some of the most important events in your lives over the 80s and 90s that relate to your faith journey from there. But where do you, where do you pick up from having two child pass away? What, what would be the next part of your story that would be most consequential to your faith journey?

Martine Smith [00:00:23] Well, I'm going to cover the. The 80s, I think sort of quickly the leadership, the local leadership in Louisiana, in Baton Rouge became extremely. Our branch was merged back into the ward. And for several years there, both at the ward level and at the stake presidency level, the leadership was very prescriptive, very much. Members do this. Members don't do that kind of thing. We had. Back then you had regional representatives. Remember one state conference where one of them came, he was from northern Louisiana, he held a youth session to which parents were not. The parents were not allowed to attend. I think some leaders were. Some youth leaders were. Our son wasn't old enough yet to be part of it, but he had the youth. He had all the young men stand, put their arm to the square and covenant that they would go on missions. And then he had all of the youth stand and put their arm to the square and covenant that they would not date non Mormons. Boy, there were a lot of upset parents after their meeting. You know, you don't. Obviously the only place we covenant is in the temple. You don't throw covenants around like this binding. And you know, we're seeing sort of a resurgence of that now by the youth being told, hey, you agreed to go on a mission when you were baptized, you know, so you don't have to pray about it. Because when you got baptized and you made covenants to follow Jesus, that included going on a mission, by the way, even though nobody mentioned it to you at the time, but did that.

John Dehlin [00:02:23] Would that. Why would that bother you as. Or still believing pretty orthodox Mormons? Why would it bother you at that point that the youth were being challenged to go on missions and date within the fold? That would seem like you as parents, you would agree with that.

Martine Smith [00:02:41] Because the authority issue, the priesthood authority, the unrighteous dominion had rear its head during that period of time. It was just really a climate and we were not. It wasn't just Stuart and me. It was a lot of our friends just feeling just a heavy hand of priesthood authority. I remember Saturday evening session of state conference, by the way. We always attended Saturday evening of stake conference where the Stake president brought up. He had this long list of do's and don'ts. You know, stuff about the Sabbath. You know, he would just, you know, don't drink coke. I mean he just spelled it all out for you. And that just felt a little too heavy. We, Stuart hadn't grown up with that. And even as a believing member, I hadn't experienced that before, certainly not in the branch. And one of the things he said that night was so the TV show Dallas was a big deal back then. So he specifically said, don't watch Dallas. We had never watched Dallas. Guess what? We started watching Dallas because for one thing, we just felt he was too heavy handed. And we were curious. By then. We actually had a stake president who was okay, like early 80s, until about 1984 I think. However, he had cancer. So he wasn't functioning really at 100% toward the end of his term. And his first counselor was called as stake president. I think the stake president passed away within a couple of months after that. The stake president is the one that we really didn't care for. He was a local guy. His whole family was intertwined and everything in the church. I'll Skip over. That's 1984. And in 1987 he is released. We happened to be out of the country. We were gone to visit my mother in Europe for a month. When we return, we find out that in the June state conference he'd been released. It didn't seem that big a deal because I don't think I wasn't aware at the time that they were stake president serves between seven and nine years. I didn't realize there was such a thing. So he had only served for three. Yeah, so that wasn't a big deal. His first counselor was put in as the stake president. But we had a month's worth of mail awaiting us. And as Stuart went through the mail, he found this one envelope. The return address was the former stake president who'd just been released. And it was a fundraising letter for missionary program. The letter said that as a stake, you know, we are raising funds. And there was actually a suggested amount, $150 per family. Well, we had just come back from a month in Europe. We didn't have $150 and we didn't like him. So we didn't feel an obligation to participate. But we heard from friends that they had, they had felt it was their duty to do so. They had sent. It was a little puzzling that the return address was his home since he was no longer stake President. I rationalized that in my mind, not realizing that a stake president knows weeks in advance that he's going to be replaced. It's been communicated from Salt Lake that we're coming and your time is up. Fast forward to December, and we come up to Utah for Christmas. When we get home, like, the next morning, I get a call from my best friend. And she tells me that the former stake president, who was just released six months earlier, was excommunicated over the holidays. And the reason given was embezzling church funds. So she and I have a talk. And like I've said before multiple times, I did not like him. And I am not generally generous with people I don't like. But my thought was, poor man, he's married, obviously. He has five daughters. He had been unemployed several times while he was stake president, and that was well known. And I thought, poor man. He's sitting one evening in the stake president's office. His counselors and the clerk have left, and he has no paycheck to bring home. And. And he just, you know, in a moment of weakness, he wrote himself a check. And I'm feeling sorry for the man. In fact, I'm feeling so sorry for the man that I write him a note. Well, a few minutes later, I get another call from my friend. And she said, can I come over? I'll bring lunch. So within 10, 15 minutes, she was over at my house, and she said, I have something to tell you. I have something you should know, and you'd better sit down. So I did that. And she said, for about two years, you and I were put on church probation by President B. I'll call him. Well, I may be a woman, and I wasn't necessarily supposed to be privy to all of this, but I had taught a lesson on church courts. And the title was Church Courts or Courts of Love. And Stuart was in the branch presidency. And the branch president had said, if you're going to teach this lesson, you should know the ins and outs of church courts. So ask Stuart for his copy of the Church Handbook of Instructions and read it before you teach. The lesson's not sufficient in the manual. Go ahead and read. So I knew, obviously, excommunication, disfellowshipment, formal probation and informal probation. I also knew that you can't be. Especially when you're talking about probation, which is sort of vague, but you can't be put on probation without being aware of it. You have to be called in by your ecclesiastical authority and told, Sister Smith, you did this and this and that wrong? We think you need a break. So you. We are placing you on probation, and this is what you need to do to get back to return to full fellowship. None of that had happened.

John Dehlin [00:10:08] Do you have a sense for why he put you on probation?

Martine Smith [00:10:11] A little bit, yes. One thing was that following one day at Sanson Symposium in July or August of 85, upon our return home, we decided to start a study group. And Sunstone was our study manual. And the thing is, we invited our friends, and one of our friends we didn't realize was a mole from the stake. So he reported to the stake what we were discussing. And I remember one of the first articles we discussed was about, are we practicing blind obedience? I don't remember the title exactly, but is that what it really is? And we very much, especially because of the. The way local leadership was acting at that time in the mid-80s, we very much felt like they were asking for blind obedience. So that was one thing. And then I had taught another spiritual living lesson in Relief Society titled Sacrifice Brings Forth the Blessings of Heaven. And during that lesson, I had made the comment, you know, they used to. They tend to teach you that if you sacrifice for the church, you know, you will be blessed. You know, missionary families are blessed. You know, yes, you're sending your. Your child out for 18 months or two years, you're paying for them to be out, but your family is blessed. And of course, a lot of families testify that they are blessed because you look for it, you know, so the least little good thing that happens, you interpret that as a blessing for your obedience. So sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven. I mentioned that to me, whether a dad was on the golf course all day or whether he was in church meetings all day, he wasn't home. And the effect on their children and the household was the same. Dad isn't home, he's absent, he's not contributing. I think that got me reported by my bishop's wife. I know she wasn't very happy with that, but apparently the whole thing, this whole probation, which was. It was communicated by the stake president to our bishop, who didn't question it. And by the way, that's a temple recommend I had at that time, which proves that I didn't know and they didn't want me to know. Yeah, I had to dig that up this morning. I still have, like, a box of temple recommends, but that one I kept because I remember finding it years later, and I thought, wait, I had a temple recommend signed by him by that very stake president.

John Dehlin [00:13:07] Yeah, well, if it's. Okay, let's backtrack a tiny bit because, you know, I know the Sunstone was started, you know, in the mid-70s by Peggy Fletcher Stack and Scott Kinney and others. And by the early 80s, that was still very early. The Sunstone symposium didn't follow the magazine for a few years. So 81, 82, that's very early Sunstone. Now, I know that in the late 80s, early 90s, the. The church ends up, you know, basically denouncing symposia without mentioning Sunstone and denouncing study groups.

Martine Smith [00:13:46] Right.

John Dehlin [00:13:46] But in the early 80s, that would have still been very early. So what I want to know is you've had two children pass away, but you're still very much believing committed Mormons. How did you. How did you get into Sunstone? And how did you get into Sunstone to the point where, from Louisiana, you're traveling to Salt Lake to attend a Sunstone? Because that puts you in a very, very select early group of, like, progressive or liberal or even critical Mormons. Can you talk to us about how you got into Sunstone?

Martine Smith [00:14:20] So when we had Sarah, we had. I mentioned in part two that we had several. You know, we had several families who were really helpful, and we had two or three couples who were the age of our parents. So they acted as surrogate parents to us and grandparents since our, you know, our family was nearly 2,000 miles away. One of them, they had lost a child, and they were extremely dedicated to the church, but also very nuanced in some areas. And they subscribed to Sunstone. And during. Either during Sarah's life or after she passed away, the husband Bill, gave us an issue of Sunstone. It would be interesting to go back and try to figure out which one it was and if there was a specific article he wanted us to read. But I think his intent was to show us the gray areas of life. The gray areas, you know, you see your child suffer, you wonder about God. And I think that was. That was Bill's. So after a while, we started subscribing, and I can't remember when that was. That led also to me getting a subscription to Exponent 2, which was just like a newspaper back then. I can't remember. It was quarterly or something, you know. So which is how I found out, I think, about Mormon Enigma, which I read at that time, you know, just right after it came out.

John Dehlin [00:15:50] And for those who don't know, women's exponent 2 was a feminist magazine or journal started by Claudia Bushman and Laura Thatch. Ulrich and some of those, I don't know, third wave Mormon feminist women of the. Of the 70s and 80s. Is that fair to say? Yeah, yeah.

Martine Smith [00:16:09] So that, that you start identifying as

John Dehlin [00:16:12] a feminist in the early days.

Martine Smith [00:16:13] Yeah, that resonated very much with me. Again, that would be interesting to, to read some of those issues. I'm sure they're online somewhere and you know, see what, what it was. I think I said last time that, uh, you know, I. I attended an exponent to retreat in Tyler, Texas even, you know, two, three day retreat in the 80s.

John Dehlin [00:16:35] In the early 80s.

Martine Smith [00:16:36] In the 80s. Yeah. Yeah. So how did we get to Sunstone? We didn't actually make a specific trip to come to some Sunstone. We were coming up to Utah for like three weeks and found out the symposium was going on, you know, before we got here probably. And so we were able to attend one day, the Saturday. So we attended all day.

John Dehlin [00:16:59] And do you remember where it was?

Martine Smith [00:17:01] Yeah, it was at the Hotel Utah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:03] Hotel Utah.

Martine Smith [00:17:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:04] Do you remember some of the people that were there?

Stuart Smith [00:17:06] Wasn't this one Steve Christensen?

Martine Smith [00:17:08] Oh, yeah. I mean in terms of like, you know, it was. They used to have pillars of my faith, you know, on Saturday evening for a long time. And the three speakers that year were Peggy's grandfather, Senator Wallace Bennett. Steve Christensen, who would be killed six weeks later. Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:28] Wow.

Martine Smith [00:17:29] You know, that was the year. Just a few years, you know, just like six weeks later.

John Dehlin [00:17:34] Wow.

Martine Smith [00:17:35] And he was so funny.

John Dehlin [00:17:36] Yeah.

Martine Smith [00:17:37] I don't know if you were there. He was so funny. We were rolling in the aisles.

John Dehlin [00:17:42] Yeah.

Martine Smith [00:17:43] And Emma Luthan.

John Dehlin [00:17:44] Yeah.

Martine Smith [00:17:45] Who was absolutely amazing because Emma Lou was a Richards from the Franklin D. Richards. What other Richards, you know, in the quorum of the 12.

Stuart Smith [00:17:57] Stephen L. Richards.

Martine Smith [00:17:58] Stephen L. Richards in the quorum of the 12. So she told stories of her growing up and a couple of things that still mark me, what, 40 years later. She told the story. So they had a, you know, the family had a cabin in one of the canyons and they would spend the whole summer there and they would have Sunday school and you know, in somebody's cabin. And so they would like roll down the dirt road, you know, some of the kids and just announce where Sunday, whose cabin Sunday school was, was at. And. But she had an apostle uncle, Stephen L. Richards. She also had, I remember she refers to him as a cigar smoking uncle, also a R. And on Sunday afternoon they would get together at somebody's house, they would play pool. And a lot of times she said nobody bothered to go Back to sacrament meeting which was held in the early evening back then she said, you know, I remember an exact quote is that attendance meant so much less in those days. And she just described a much more easygoing church. And Emma Lou, you know, was faithful to the end, but we got in the car to come home and I still remember we were on the, on ramp of the freeway going back to his parents house and we were quiet. I mean, I think we couldn't speak because her words had touched us. That. I'll quote Stuart or do you want to quote yourself?

Stuart Smith [00:19:40] Go ahead.

Martine Smith [00:19:41] Okay. Stuart said, that's the church I grew up in. Which contrasted with the church we were living in in Louisiana. To us it was such a stark contrast with, you know, the easy loose reins that he experienced or that Emma Lou experienced here in Utah versus what we felt was the really tight we have to hold you.

John Dehlin [00:20:14] So now I understand. Well, first of all, I can see why it would be disturbing to have a stake president released for embezzlement of funds. And then I can see why it would be disturbing to be discovered that you're put on a blacklist. Having been put on a blacklist. I know what it's like to feel disturbed by being put on a blacklist. And yeah, it sounds, and I guess I wish somebody would write the book about how cool Mormonism was in like the early to mid-90s when B H Roberts and Talmagen Woodstow and Eyring were science lovers. And a lot of the church curriculum was science respecting and valuing. And women's education was encouraged more, believe it or not, in the early and mid 20th century than it was later. And then how kind of all these science loving apostles die off and then Joseph Fielding Smith outlives them all. And between him and Harold B. Lee and you know, others, Bruce Armaconke, Boyd K. Packer, the church becomes more orthodox, more rigid, more fundamentalistic. And by the late 80s, early 90s, it becomes kind of unbearable. The church has become over time oddly more strict, more rigid, more controlling in 2020. 2020, you know, 2010, 2020 than it ever was in, in 1940, 1950. Right. Is that what you're saying, Stuart?

Stuart Smith [00:21:45] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:21:45] Yeah. And most, most of us kind of think that over time institutions become more progressive, more open minded, more liberal. But it was kind of the opposite with the church. Right?

Stuart Smith [00:21:57] Yeah. There was more retrenchment.

John Dehlin [00:21:59] Yeah, Retrenchment, yep.

Martine Smith [00:22:01] And one thing I want to say about the, the stake president, he had actually, I had been too generous with him. He had actually been embezzling since he was a counselor. So because the previous stake president had cancer and wasn't fully functioning, he had already figured out a way to siphon some funds to himself. And in the end, He was excommunicated for embezzling church funds. He wasn't excommunicated for practicing unrighteous dominion. After I found out that my reputation had been smeared among my peers, because the way we found out, we found out was we were a tight group of four friends. And so the friend who came to my house, it was another of our friend who was called as Relief Society president a couple years before that. And when she met with the outgoing Relief Society president to get the manuals and the binder, there was a sheet on top where a number of names, like a dozen names were handwritten. The outgoing Relief Society president told our friend, the incoming Relief Society president, these sisters are on probation, and they are not to be called to positions of responsibility in the Relief Society. They are not to teach. Well, our friend immediately saw our names, her two friends names on that list. And she knew full well we didn't know that. We didn't know that action had been taken against us. So she went to the bishop, who was a new bishop, and asked him what he knew, and he knew nothing. So I don't remember. I think I got to talk to him at one point. I liked him a lot, and, you know, he really didn't find out anything. So he came back to our friend, the Relief Society president, and said, as far as I know, they're cleared. You know, I don't think there was ever anything. So when I found out, I stopped going to church for four Sundays. That was my break. I was so angry. I was angry with God. I was angry with the church. I was angry the way it was run. And at the end of those four weeks, I called the stake president, told him what I had found out, and I really didn't know him well, and I didn't really particularly like him, but. And that would change. I'm not going to go into that. But we ended up becoming really good friends until we moved back to Salt Lake. But I told him, and I said, you know, I. I want you to look in. In our church, in my church records and tell me what you find. He came back to me within a week, and he said, there's absolutely nothing on your records. He said, I would consider that you were blackballed by President B. Eventually we would find out that my friend and I were not the only ones I know of others, and specifically the ones I remember best was one couple in. In a nearby town. Both a husband and wife had also been blackballed, and she was a former Stake Relief Society president. What bothered me over the years after that, I went back to church. You know, that was just. It was put on the shelf. The part that was put on the shelf was if I had complained, if I had written letters to a higher. To the higher ups about the unrighteous dominion, nothing would have happened. Because you can't call out a stake president in the church unless it's adultery or finance church finance if you see something else amiss. He was called by inspiration. He calls others by inspiration. And, you know, Sister, you just need to get in line. It's your problem. You need to humble yourself. This man's inspired. And that was from then on. So that was like another added thing about priesthood authority for me. He'd been called by 70. I remember who he is, and he was already embezzling when he was called. He didn't start afterwards. So when the 70 sat across from him, you know, we. We talk about this, you know, the spirit of discernment. When the 70 sat across from him and called Brother B as stake president, nothing came to him. Like, I shouldn't call this man. There's something wrong. I. I'm feeling there's. He's. Something's amiss with this brother. So I should look further and look for another candidate. No, he called a man who had already been embezzling from the church. So that was. That was a. You know, I had had the experience already in, you know, in Belgium, although I was too young to realize the implications then. But I put those two together. I think they keep calling men who already have a problem when they're called so.

John Dehlin [00:27:45] Well, that's. That's another disturbing thing to experience within the church context. But it's also, you know, not unheard of. I think probably most Mormons at one time or another are aware of a bishop or stake president that was caught on my mission. I had to, you know, act disfellowship or excommunicate a former branch president for embezzling funds. Like, it's. It happens, but it's not. It's. It's. It's always a crack in one's testimony to see these leaders that we consider to be inspired of God to be acting that way.

Martine Smith [00:28:16] And look how brazen he was. That fundraising letter he sent for Mission Fund, he sent it after he was released and the money went to him.

John Dehlin [00:28:25] Yeah. So what was, you know, what was the next major milestone in your faith journey from that point forward?

Mormon Enigma, Feminism, and Intellectual Awakening

Martine Smith [00:28:38] It probably came a couple years earlier, but it was reading Mormon Enigma. Okay, so Emma Smith's biography, the first, really the first time I had read about Joseph's polygamy.

John Dehlin [00:28:54] Didn't the author, one of the co authors of that just passed away recently?

Martine Smith [00:28:57] She did last week. Linda Newell, Right, Linda Newell.

John Dehlin [00:29:00] Yeah. So I remember that was a book that caused so much controversy that leaders went around forbidding members to even look at it. So do you want to talk about what it meant for you to read Mormon Enigma and what you learned from that and what you remember about that book coming out?

Martine Smith [00:29:24] Yeah, because I've read so much more about polygamy, you know, like in Sacred Loneliness and all of that. It's a little bit difficult to separate what, what is in Mormon Enigma. But I know there are already in Mormon Enigma narratives of the way Joseph approached a variety of women using generally the same pattern, using often an intermediary, like an older woman to whom he was already sealed, to explain how necessary polygamy was, how it was a commandment from God promising this young woman as young as 14. But you know, there's only, there's one or two. You say only one or two. I mean, he married women of all ages. And I will never call Joseph a pedophile because I don't think that's what it was about. But promising, in the case of Helen Mar Kimball, promising exaltation to her entire family if she agreed to be sealed to him within the like 24 hour period he gave her to make up her mind. And that happened. That happened multiple times. So I pretty much, I divorced myself from Joseph at that point.

John Dehlin [00:30:49] And had either of you been taught about, you know, Joseph, Joseph and his, you know, soliciting of dozens of wives and the methods that he used for coercion and the ages of the, of the young women or even girls that he was approaching? Stuart, had you been taught that?

Stuart Smith [00:31:11] No. No.

John Dehlin [00:31:12] You had never been taught that?

Stuart Smith [00:31:13] No. I mean, I had an awareness that Joseph had practiced polygamy, that Brigham wasn't the first, but it was, I don't know, it was really just kind of very vague. There was no details. There was no, I mean, nothing that, certainly nothing in church that was presented on it.

John Dehlin [00:31:32] And so did you read Mormon Enigma along with Martine?

Stuart Smith [00:31:37] I think I may have read some of it later, but I didn't really read it.

Martine Smith [00:31:40] I think I probably shared, yeah, I probably shared passages.

Stuart Smith [00:31:44] She shared a Lot of it.

John Dehlin [00:31:46] And what were your reactions to what she was. Well, the fact that she was reading this book. Were you troubled that she was even reading the book?

Stuart Smith [00:31:54] I don't recall being.

John Dehlin [00:31:57] Because this is dangerous stuff in the early 80s, right?

Stuart Smith [00:32:01] Yeah. I mean. Well, this was. What time was this? This was.

Martine Smith [00:32:05] Well, the book came out in 84, so I. I don't know. I'm, you know.

John Dehlin [00:32:09] Mid 80s.

Martine Smith [00:32:10] Yeah, mid 80s. Yeah.

Stuart Smith [00:32:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:12] I mean, this would have been the CES letter or the Mormon stories of its time, right?

Martine Smith [00:32:17] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:18] Like it was a bomb that the Brethren wanted suppressed, that the Brethren were openly denouncing. So, Steward, you don't remember feeling alarmed by the fact that she was reading it?

Stuart Smith [00:32:27] No.

John Dehlin [00:32:28] Huh. Do you have an explanation for that? Was it because you were in an apathetic phase or you're just kind of low key, or. Why were you not alarmed?

Stuart Smith [00:32:38] I don't know. Was I alarmed? Did I seem alarmed?

Martine Smith [00:32:40] I don't think so, John.

Stuart Smith [00:32:42] This was during my period when I was sort of physically in and mentally out kind of thing.

John Dehlin [00:32:46] You kind of checked out.

Stuart Smith [00:32:48] And so, you know, I didn't. It didn't bother me that much. I was sort of appalled at the things she would read to me. You know, I thought that was pretty bad.

John Dehlin [00:32:59] But somehow you would just kind of put it on a shelf, basically.

Stuart Smith [00:33:03] Yeah, I guess so.

John Dehlin [00:33:05] And Martine, you know, once you discover that Joseph acted in sort of abusive or predatory ways, how did. How did. How did that not make you leave the church right then and there?

Martine Smith [00:33:23] You know, I hung on to the Book of Mormon for a number of years, so I was able to separate. I don't know how, but none of us know how, you know, I was able to separate the two. So Joseph was. I don't know that I. The term fallen prophet didn't even come to me, but I think I expressed in the last episode, or maybe in the first, that I'd always had some discomfort with the first vision, you know, recurring. It's awfully far fetched. I wonder if that really happened.

John Dehlin [00:33:59] Okay, so after reading Mormon Enigma, you concluded that Joseph was a problem, but. But somehow as a flawed vessel, he produced the Book of Mormon, which is inspired. And so I'm gonna stay true to my faith in the Book of Mormon, even though Joseph is now a big pro. He's on. He's on the. He's. He's in a timeout.

Martine Smith [00:34:20] Yeah, he's on my shelf.

John Dehlin [00:34:21] Yeah. Okay.

Martine Smith [00:34:22] He's also on my shelf.

Stuart Smith [00:34:24] Okay.

Martine Smith [00:34:24] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mormon Enigma. What I've said recently, especially because Linda Newell just passed away. But I said Mormon Enigma was my first Mormon history shelf item. Yeah, it was.

John Dehlin [00:34:41] Yeah.

Martine Smith [00:34:42] Yeah. I already had the authority. The priesthood authority item on my shelf by then. But that was my. As far as Mormon history, that. That. That shook me.

John Dehlin [00:34:56] You know, the era, the Equal Rights Amendment stuff would have happened in the late 70s, but if you're hanging out in Mormon feminist circles by the early to mid-80s, you would have heard about the churches and active involvement in defeating the Equal Rights Amendment. Did you have negative or positive feelings about that?

Martine Smith [00:35:17] You know, I remember. So what was her name? Who was excused?

John Dehlin [00:35:22] Sonia Johnson.

Martine Smith [00:35:22] Sonia Johnson. I remember that we were on a. It was after Sarah died. We were on a camping trip with. At the beach in Alabama with. With friends. And I remember that that's when the news came out that she'd been excommunicated. I don't remember my exact feelings. I don't remember how much I knew about what she had done, you know, other than what was in the news. I may have thought that, you know, maybe she'd gone a little too far or something, but certainly I was receiving the Church's teachings that passing the ERA would mean, you know, women on the battlefield, you know, all of those horrible things.

John Dehlin [00:36:07] Genderless bathrooms.

Martine Smith [00:36:08] Genderless bathrooms, which we have now should go to Europe. Lots of genderless bathrooms. Doesn't kill you.

John Dehlin [00:36:17] So you weren't disturbed by the Church's defeating of the ERA at the time, even though you were a Mormon feminist?

Martine Smith [00:36:23] Yeah, I may have.

Stuart Smith [00:36:25] Well, I think we were also, you know, fairly politically conservative.

John Dehlin [00:36:29] Yeah.

Stuart Smith [00:36:30] And the ERA was definitely an issue.

John Dehlin [00:36:32] Democrat politically.

Martine Smith [00:36:33] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:34] And you would have been Republicans, and so.

Stuart Smith [00:36:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:37] You would have assessed it on partisan lines, probably.

Stuart Smith [00:36:40] Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's fair.

John Dehlin [00:36:43] Okay, so now you've got Mormon Enigma adding to your shelf. What's the next big element in your faith journey that comes up?

Martine Smith [00:36:54] Well, little by little, as I get older, as I'm not in my 20s anymore, having lost two children and yearning to raise those children, I start wondering, why would I want to raise children in the next life? What's the advantage of that? I'd much rather meet my children that I really haven't gotten to know. I'd rather meet them as adults, you know, interact with them as adults. I'm not seeing. I'm deconstructing the plan of salvation by then. I'm starting to. It will grow, and it's still growing. I still get little thoughts here and there quite often about how would that work no, that wouldn't work that way. You know, there's such this emphasis of families can be together forever and the children sing that. And even though now there's more deconstruction of what that means in, in the mainline church, I think, you know, you'll get some people, some friends. When I say, you know, that doesn't really make sense. How do, how do you live together forever? But in the temple during, you know, when you're sealed, you, you are told that you will, you know, you will inherit kingdoms, principalities. What's the other one? There's three or four. Yeah, dominions. Well, thrones. Okay. All of that means, and has meant for generations of Mormons that, that you, you know, the pattern repeats itself. This is an age old pattern that there's an Earth and there's a, there's a savior that, that has to come to save whatever inhabitants are on that, on that planet and there's a God for that planet and we have our own God. And Brigham was confused about that. But anyway, so I just start deconstructing all of that. And of course now the church says, well, no, you don't get your own planet. Okay, I never really thought about it. It's my own planet. But certainly our own dominion. At least for my husband, I mean, I'd just be hanging out with him, but at least, you know, at least for my husband, he would be ruling and reigning over something. And it's not just ruling and reigning over his posterity. That's never been understood that way. So I just start, you know, it just starts breaking apart. The whole plan of salvation just starts breaking apart. You know, the church very literally teaches in that, in that children's song. I always want to be with my own family. I mean, what do we teach the primary children? If you have primary, if teacher has a primary child whose parents are not members or they haven't been to the temple, you teach lessons about, you know, unless your parents were married in the temple. I mean, I, I've never done that personally, but I've certainly seen it done. If you're not married in the temple, your family will be separated. Well, if you have a good home life, that's prerequisite. There's nothing more scary to a child than to hear that their parents will be taken away, that they won't be with them. So of course you're going to want that. But practically that doesn't work in the next life. So those are some of the things that just started bothering me. And yet the plan of Salvation had sustained me for decades because of my children, because we were going to be together. Because Legrand Richards had told me that, geez, at that time, I only had lost one child, you know, but that he would come and pull us from wherever we were, should we go astray, and that we would go, we would be in the social kingdom. I never planned on that. Okay. I never thought, oh, I can go and do whatever. I'm going to read a little quote. My stepsister, I have a stepsister in Belgium. Her father in law just passed away a few weeks ago. And I thought it was interesting. They're non believers, but I thought it was interesting that on the obituary was this little saying. At the same instant that family members mourn, saying, he's gone, others see him appear at a distance and rejoicing, exclaim, here he comes. I mean, the belief that there is an afterlife and that people will be with their loved ones, even not necessarily as family units, is pretty much universal. People who believe in an afterlife believe that they will associate with those family and friends. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the only one I know who tells you, no, you won't. Yeah, I'm so sorry. You're deluding yourself and thinking you're going to actually be together because you won't unless you do these things that we tell you are necessary, that we say God told us are necessary.

John Dehlin [00:42:44] It's always struck me as a paradox that from a sales or marketing perspective, the church's value proposition is, hey, good news, you get to be with your family forever if you follow our teachings and if you get baptized into our church. But the real implications of that are that most families, God is going to be separating, whereas if you ask just a regular old Christian, they're going to say, of course our families are going to be together forever. That's the default.

Martine Smith [00:43:08] Right.

John Dehlin [00:43:08] So the Mormon Church in effect, is creating this scarcity and creating this fear while selling it as it's. It's the benefit to, to participation. And it really, really makes. Again, it's yucky now.

Martine Smith [00:43:24] I feel it's yucky.

John Dehlin [00:43:25] Yeah. Just like God making your children suffer to teach someone some lesson or to teach them some lesson. God separating families in the afterlife just leads to sad heaven for most people. And it makes God look because there'll

Martine Smith [00:43:39] always be somebody missing. So even if you're in the celestial kingdom, you can't be, you can't possibly have a fullness of joy if one of your children is missing. Right?

John Dehlin [00:43:50] Yeah.

Martine Smith [00:43:51] And also, you know, when You. When your family expands, you know, your kids get married and they have children of their own, you're not living under the same roof anyway. And, you know, the relationships can be sort of loose also. So why would it be so important in the next life that there are still these tight family units Anyway? I'm probably going on and on, but that's something that's bothered. That's bothered me now for several decades now.

John Dehlin [00:44:26] Yeah.

Martine Smith [00:44:27] And then another thing about, you know, we're going to be gods, okay, the men, anyway. I think Dallin Oaks has said women. There's nothing that says women will be gods, but. But, you know, the men will be gods, ruling over their own worlds, having spirit children. So we can repeat this. This pattern. And one day, just. And that was a long time ago, like 25 years ago. I thought, we're so small. I mean, we're human beings, but we're so small. We have our little lives. We go to church on Sunday. We abstain from coffee and alcohol. We go to the temple, if we're good, you know, go to the temple more often. And we take casseroles to the neighbor. How is that qualifying me or him without the casserole? How is that qualifying us to become a God someday? Or like, Christ? This just like. At least the way we portray Christ, it's just like this huge discrepancy between the little lives we live and then the reward we would get to. Oh, you get to go to Celestial Kingdom because you. You know, you did A, B, C and D, and. And then you get to do what God did. You repeat the pattern. And I went and talked to a bishop about it once, and I said, you know, I'm not a Christ. I'm not saving people from their sins. Why would I? How. How could I ever inherit that kind of reward? And he said, well, you know, if you do your family history and you. You know, you find your ancestors and you do their temple work for them, you are a savior on Mount Zion, and therefore you are saving people. I remember walking out of that office totally dissatisfied with that response, that our mission here on Earth in order to earn the celestial kingdom is to do family history and go do ordinances in the temple. Anyway, so that whole thing became extremely fragmented to me. It just absolutely, totally fell apart. I couldn't. I could no longer make sense of it, and I couldn't see the purpose in it.

John Dehlin [00:46:54] Okay, all right. That's a lot of items on your shelf. What comes next? What's the big. What's the next big thing? That comes next. Well, what year are we at about. At this point in the story?

Martine Smith [00:47:10] Well, some of it overlaps. We're like in the. In the 90s, in the mid to late 90s. We're about at the point where we are ready to move back to.

John Dehlin [00:47:20] Did you continue attending Sunstone multiple times?

Martine Smith [00:47:23] No. Because we didn't come. No, actually, we didn't because we didn't come every summer. Our son was a competitive swimmer, and so our summers were taken with a lot of swim meets, and there was usually no time to, you know, school with. In Louisiana. School started back then in the, you know, third week in August or whatever. By the time we were done with the last swim meet and at the end of July, there wasn't time to come to Utah.

John Dehlin [00:47:48] So throughout the 80s and early 90s. 90s, you would have attended just that

Martine Smith [00:47:51] one day, that one time.

John Dehlin [00:47:52] Would you have. Would you have been a subscriber to Sunstone magazine throughout the 80s and 90s?

Martine Smith [00:47:56] And dialogue at that time.

John Dehlin [00:47:57] And dialogue. Okay, let me ask you this. You had started a study group. Was it an intellectual, kind of critical, progressive, Mormon study group? And if so, what types of books were you studying with the group?

Martine Smith [00:48:12] I think we studied mostly from Sunstone articles, but none of the others subscribe to it. You know, so they have to make copies and share with them. And even though we were not aware that there was a mole in our midst, it didn't last all that long, and I can't remember why.

John Dehlin [00:48:32] So it wasn't a big.

Martine Smith [00:48:33] It wasn't a huge. Yeah, it wasn't a huge thing.

John Dehlin [00:48:36] So did you have any community, any friends? Like, right now you can go to a Facebook group or Reddit or, you know, even prior to that, there would be email groups that you could join to discuss things. In the late 80s, early 90s, did you have any friends or any way to discuss these types of issues with people? Or were you and Stuart just reading Sunstone on your own and then trying to, you know, coexist in your ward?

Martine Smith [00:49:06] I mean, we had the friends, the friends that we'd made in the branch, and we were. Geographically, we were all pretty, you know, we live pretty close together. And all of them were pretty unhappy with the local leadership as well. But all were attending all held callings and all of that. But we could, you know, we vented to each other. We had. We had, you know, we had our own Sunday school class in the Family History center, you know. You know, I'm sure you're familiar with the, you know, the four Year Sunday school type thing. So we didn't, we didn't attend regular Sunday school very often. We were usually just chatting with friends in the, in our case it was in the family History center because somebody had a key. So yeah, we were able to, yeah, we were able to vent, but those friends didn't really read a lot of alternative. You know, I don't remember if I loaned Mormon Enigma to anyone. Like.

John Dehlin [00:50:15] So it sounds like you weren't really friends with and. Or part of a really vibrant, no intellectual Mormon community.

Martine Smith [00:50:23] No, no, no, we were on our own the way lots of people, lots of members still are, you know, on their own in some, yeah, some far reaches of the world, for example. And how think about the people we know in Australia who have questions or in the uk.

John Dehlin [00:50:40] Yeah. And, and how much of it was both of you really reading Sunstone and thinking about it versus just you, Martine? And Stuart was just less interested.

Martine Smith [00:50:51] He may have actually read more than I did. I probably read, I didn't know I was ADHD at the time. It would be years later. So I probably read the, the shorter articles. But then we would discuss. I remember one in, it's not the only one, but I remember one in particular about the Book of Mormon population, you know, how quickly they grew and the, you know, the number of killed in battles. And I remember Stuart, you know, obviously smart and an engineer, you know, reading those and then discussing them with me saying, you know, I always thought that didn't make very much sense. And this article really shows that it really, you know, the population couldn't have grown as quickly as the Book of Mormon claims it did. And those large numbers couldn't have been killed in, you know, in battles because we have modern day battles that we can compare to.

John Dehlin [00:51:49] And do you still remember reading Dialogue in Sunstone cover to cover and because there would have been articles about B H Roberts and, and you know, whether he believed in the Book of Mormon or not, by the end there would have been a lot of Book of Mormon historicity stuff. The anachronism stuff would have started appearing. You know, the kind of the Book of Mormon wars of the 80s and 90s in Sunsona dialogue. And of course farms would have been emerging at that point to try and counter a lot of the stuff coming out of Sunsona dialogue. Were you intellectually questioning Mormon Church truth claims by that point?

Stuart Smith [00:52:23] Oh yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:25] And, and what was going on in your. With your faith?

Stuart Smith [00:52:31] Well, yeah, I always had questions, you know, intellectual questions and I guess, you know, there were a lot of Shelf items at the time, but I still had a shelf and I still put things on it because I felt like it was important. One, that I support Martine and two, that we raise our son in an upbringing that, you know, for me I thought it was a positive childhood and upbringing that I had, and I wanted the same thing for him. So, I mean, in fact, I don't know that we come to this part yet, but. In 1991, I was called as a second a counselor in the bishopric. We were still in Baton Rouge. And I remember I was called. It was a Saturday, I guess we were. Our swim team club was hosting a major regional swim meet that weekend. And it was, you know, three day events, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, and we were involved in putting it on and so forth. And in fact, I was up in the, you know, the scorekeepers, up there with the computer so on clock and running, that kind of thing. And there was a break and a member of the stake presidency, the councilor and state presidency knew we were there. And he came by and stopped and asked if he could talk to me. Now, this counselor is someone that. We had had a fraught relationship with his family for almost from the time they moved here. We graduated from BYU together, same engineering program. We ultimately ended up accepting employment with the same company down and Louisiana. But we'd always been both professionally and socially, even though our kids played together, you know, we were just kind of. They were all in. I mean, they were all super lds, super, I would say, church ladder climbing type people. Would you say that? Something like that, yeah. Anyway, it kind of turned us off. So we were there. We're fraught relationship there. But here he was here he was at a swim meet on a Saturday night, talking to me and saying, you know, we're reorganizing the bishopric and the battery, Second ward. And the new bishop is so and so, and he would like you and so and so to serve as his counselors. And the other guy that was going to be a counselor was the man I'd served with in the branch presidency when we had Sarah. And we were extremely close.

Stuart Called to the Bishopric and Martine as Relief Society President

Martine Smith [00:55:43] He had been the branch president.

Stuart Smith [00:55:45] Yeah. So I looked at him and I said, richard, you know, I'm not paying tithing. You know, I'm not wearing my garment. Here I am Saturday night not wearing garments. I mean, shorts and T shirt and all that. And you want to call me into the bishopric. And he says, yeah, we know all that, but we want you anyway. And so I, I was sort of thinking about that and I came, I began to think about our son and the fact that he was getting older. And I was looking for a way somehow to, you know, maybe strengthen him a little bit. And I was concerned about, you know, his friends maybe, and things that he was getting into. So I thought, well, maybe this is something I should do. You know, I just. I came this close to saying, no, get the hell out of here. But then I stopped myself and I said, okay, I'll do it. So that brought me into the bishopric.

John Dehlin [00:57:06] But by the early 90s, you would have known about the problems with the first vision. You would have known about the problems with the Book of Abraham in the translation. You would have known about Joseph Smith's polygamy. You would have known about BH Roberts, you would have known about ecclesiastical abuse. You would have been known. You would have known about women's issues in the church. Like, you would have had a general sense of all the main things that would end up in the CES letter that would take so many people out. So you kind of knew there were deep problems with the church, and you had had two children die by that point. And so you would have had a lot of those, let's say, theodicy kind of issues with kind of human suffering and. And the benevolence of God. And so I guess you would have had every reason, like you said, to say, I'm not going to be bishop. I don't even believe this stuff. You're not wearing your garments. Did I just hear you say that you really didn't believe, but that you accepted a call to the bishopric because you thought it would be good for your son? Or was it more nuance or complex than that?

Stuart Smith [00:58:17] No, I think it was primarily for family reasons.

John Dehlin [00:58:23] Consciously, as a non believer.

Stuart Smith [00:58:26] Well, you know, I wouldn't say, you know, you presented it in fairly stark terms, but I think. I think there was still a lot of things that were positive about our association relationship with the church community and socially and otherwise. And I think it was something that I felt was important for our family still at the time.

John Dehlin [00:58:58] And I guess on Mormon stories, Dr. Dave Christian once made a distinction between validity Mormons and utility Mormons. Validity Mormons care whether or not it's true. Utility Mormons care whether or not it's good. Is it fair to say, validity wise, you were kind of low on the scale, but utility wise, you were kind of high on the scale. Is that fair to say?

Stuart Smith [00:59:24] Yeah, that's probably right. Something like that.

John Dehlin [00:59:26] Okay. And that's what Bushman, you know, when I ended up interviewing Bushman in 2004, 2005, you know, even then he was saying, it's not so much. I don't look at the church so much as true, more about how good it is. And it's a great place to raise a family.

Stuart Smith [00:59:43] Right.

John Dehlin [00:59:44] And you're saying that's how you were in the early 90s?

Stuart Smith [00:59:46] I think so, yes.

John Dehlin [00:59:47] Okay.

Stuart Smith [00:59:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:49] And. And for some of us, it's like, no, no, no, no, no. If it's true or not, that really, really matters for you. Had you reached the point of asking yourself, does it matter if it's not true? Or had you said, I don't care if it's true. I don't care if it's not true, if it's good, it's okay if it's not true.

Stuart Smith [01:00:17] I don't know that I was that firm about it in terms of. In my own mind, thinking about it, I think I certainly had many doubts, I certainly had many unresolved questions and so on like that. But I felt there was still enough connection there, especially with my family and heritage and so on, that I just felt like I wanted to continue that for our son, given all that we had been through as a family. And so I agreed to do it. And I also felt like at some point I felt like, you know, Martine was still interested in seeing her husband become more active and assume maybe a more of a leadership responsibility.

John Dehlin [01:01:15] So you felt like Martine would like it if you got more active? Yeah. Okay.

Stuart Smith [01:01:22] I hadn't been to the temple in 10 years. Right.

John Dehlin [01:01:24] Wow. Wow.

Martine Smith [01:01:26] Yeah. We went the week, a week after Sarah passed away and he hadn't been since.

John Dehlin [01:01:33] And you know, nowadays I just learned about a guy who had totally lost his faith just in the past few years. And he gets called by stake president as bishop and he tells the, tells the state president, I don't believe anymore. And the bishop's like, that's why we want you. And now he's bishop. Like, you hear about that stuff now and you get a sense it's because the church is kind of scraping the bottle of the barrel. And if it doesn't call non believing active members, it won't have anyone to call at all. But it is surprising to hear them doing that in the 90s. Although maybe baton Rouge. I don't want to say bottom of the barrel in terms of your caliber as a human being, but in terms of your faith commitment. It wasn't super high, right?

Martine Smith [01:02:18] No. But you weren't open about that. Like, I don't think nobody really knew what you believed. And by the way, yes, he wasn't wearing garments that day. Neither was I. Because when you're working a swim meet in a big natatorium that has no air conditioning in July in Louisiana, I need not remind you, John.

John Dehlin [01:02:39] Yeah. Of course.

Martine Smith [01:02:41] Of the humidity and, you know, that's running down the walls of the. Of the. The facility. And so, yes, we had gotten to the point that when we were working a swim meet, we didn't wear garments. But otherwise, he was, you know, he was. And so was I. So.

Stuart Smith [01:02:59] But.

John Dehlin [01:02:59] But still, yeah, reading Sunstone and Dialogue, like, not going to the temple for 10 years, having serious doubts. That's. That's a thing, right? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. But.

Stuart Smith [01:03:12] But. And I would say one last thing may have been that this counselor, stake presence in the state presidency who called me, like I said, we'd had such a fraught relationship over other issues, to have him come and approach me this way, you know, I was just kind of surprised, and I thought that took a lot of courage for him to do that. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:42] So what was it like for you, serving in a bishopric after having been so out on the edge? Was it good for your faith? Did it do anything to your faith, or did you just serve as kind of a secular bishopric member?

Stuart Smith [01:03:57] I think it was good. I mean, we got along. We were good friends. You know, we were doing good things, I felt like. And helping the members of the ward and serving as best we could, and I think generally we were.

Martine Smith [01:04:17] And they were. They were good men. You know, they were good men. I mean, I don't think Stuart had, you know, he'd already served in a branch presidency, and. But I don't think he had that much to learn necessarily. But, like, the bishop was extremely kind. He called me as Relief Society president a year or so later, just. I had forgotten that Stuart said. Yeah, and he was always crying. Yeah, he was a very emotional man, but very generous with his feelings and just seeing the good in everyone and led the ward with a lot of. A lot of love. And the counselor, of course, you know, we'd been friends for years by then, close to 15 years. And, you know, he had already served with him, so those were good men to. To serve with.

John Dehlin [01:05:14] I. I have a friend who's passed away who used to say that the Mormon Church is true from the ward level down. And is that. Does that resonate with you? Just you're involved in serving the widows and delivering casseroles and helping grow the youth program and that. What's not to Love about that.

Martine Smith [01:05:31] Yeah, right.

John Dehlin [01:05:31] That's service.

Martine Smith [01:05:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:33] Christ, like service. Was that it for you, Stuart?

Stuart Smith [01:05:36] Yeah, I think so. I mean, I felt that way. And then she just said, mentioned that, you know, at some point the bishop wanted to call Martine a relief site president. Wasn't my idea, it was his. And given the history, you know, previously that she had had, I, I was, you know, glad that she was willing to accept it.

John Dehlin [01:06:05] So really quick, Martine, what was it like for you to see Stuart get called into the bishopric and then how'd you like being relief president?

Martine Smith [01:06:13] Well, you know, I, I knew he was, and we'll probably talk about that when he's called his bishop. But I knew he was a good man. I don't know how much I knew about what he believed and didn't. Obviously we discussed things, but I don't know that I was as clear then as I am now maybe about where he is. So I, you know, I knew that he would serve well, that he would be helpful, that he would be maybe a different point of view at times that they might not have considered. So, yeah, about a year later, not quite a year later, I was called as Relief Society president. And I remember standing to be sustained. I was thinking about that this morning, and one of my best friends was behind me, and when they announced my name and I stood up, she said, it's about time. So I served for three years until just before we moved back to Utah. So that's. That was overall a good experience. I had good, interesting counselors. We did. I was thinking about it this morning. We looked for opportunity to serve the community outside of the church. I have a picture, newspaper clipping. I forget what it was, but I know we got together and made, I think it was a youth center or something like that. We tied quilts, twin size quilts one night. And then everybody brought toiletries and things like that. We had boxes and we had a representative from, from that agency come in, you know, accept them. That was nice. That was fun to do. And then I went to, you know, Louisiana has a. Has charity hospital which is basically Medicaid patients. And I don't know where I got that idea. Maybe I had a list of, you know, needs, and we sewed. We spent a couple of evenings at the University Institute building with sewing machines, and we made baby clothes, infant clothes and pressed them, put them in Ziploc bags. And I went to the hospital, to the maternity ward to deliver them. And it was very sweet. The woman who took them was. There's a large black Woman and, you know, I said, we've sold these and, you know, we'd like to donate them. And she said, oh, she said, you know, our closet had run empty and I knew the Lord would provide. And so it felt good, you know, to know that. She said, you wouldn't believe how many because it's, you know, it's a charity hospital, it's Medicaid. You wouldn't believe the number of women who come have. Have babies. And of course, there are minority women in Louisiana who have nothing to take home to them, to take the baby home in, basically. So it was nice to, you know, to have a presidency that was willing to do that, to reach out to the community and do something other than, you know, serve the women of the ward for the women of the ward to serve outside.

John Dehlin [01:09:44] Yeah. What really quickly, what year span did you serve as relief study president?

Martine Smith [01:09:48] 92 to 95.

John Dehlin [01:09:50] Okay, so that's really interesting because, you know, other than like, certain years in, in the past five to 10 years, like maybe 2015, like, it's hard to maybe the Mark Hoffman kind of thing, like, there, there are certain flash points in modern Mormon Church history. 78, you know, blacks, you know, black. Black Mormons received the priesthood and temple rights. Mark Hoffman thing in the, I don't know, early 80s, 93 is like one of the years. So that's obviously when the September 6th were excommunicated. And then, you know, within a few years, Margaret Toscano and Brett Metcalf and others, like a real flashpoint In Mormonism happened 10 or 12 years into your subscriptions, the Dialogue and Sunstone. Right. And during your time, Stewart, as a member of a bishopric and your time, Martine, as relief president. And that would be a time because you were not in a bubble, but you were plugged into Mormon scholarship and Mormon criticism and Mormon controversy. That could have been a real flashpoint for you guys to maybe leave the church. But because, Stuart, you had been called into a bishopric and because, Martine, you were called as leave Society president and you became leaders in what is probably Mormonism's core asset, which is the building and strengthening and nurturing of community and of good works, which is what I still remember fondly about Mormonism and still love and respect to this day, it sounds like you were both kind of unfazed by one of the biggest flashpoints in relative modern Mormon history. Is that. Is that true?

Martine Smith [01:11:45] That was for me, when I was really Saudi president. That was the presidency of Elaine Jack Chieko Kazaki and Elaine Clyde. So Those were like forward thinking women. You know, it was a different Relief Society presidency. I was very happy to be serving at a time when, you know, they were. I felt like our role models. You know, Chieko Kazakhe was bringing up, you know, abuse, abuse. She has a. I think I finally di'd it. But, you know, there's. She had a talk on, you know, recovering from sexual abuse. Now they were addressing things that the prem and proper Relief Study presences before them hadn't addressed or really have addressed since.

John Dehlin [01:12:32] Like that era with Checo. Checo for sure is one of the most important eras in modern Mormon feminist history because the church has not had as progressive of Relief Society presidency since. And so that, and I don't know if that was an accident that the church maybe was responding to the dialogue in Sunstone and feminist movements with a more progressive Relief Society president's general presidency. I don't know, but it sounds like that made you feel like you could be a Mormon and a feminist.

Martine Smith [01:13:13] Yeah. And you could, you know, like I said, get out of the ward to try to do some good in the community and not just be, you know, always turned inward. Because all three of them certainly preach that. So. But I remember being in some sessions, you know, one thing I had, I experienced cognitive dissonance quite a bit between the background of presenters at the conference. They were always degreed women, advanced degree career women, while the Ensign was. And the leadership, this was still Benson at the time was stay at home, be a mom. That's where you're, that's where your happiness lies, that you'll be most happy if you're home, you know, don't have a career and yet. And I remember standing up once, it was in the step down lounge. I remember that in the Wilkinson center. And I remember who the speaker was, the presenter was, but I won't say her name. And she wasn't part of that presidency, but she was on the Relief Society general board. And I remember just taking the mic and saying, you know, I read the Ensign and it tells me I should be home and I should be scrubbing floors and serving my family and I shouldn't seek to have a career. And yet all of the presenters at Women's Conference are always women, prominent women in the church or in the community. And I was basically told to shut up and sit down and not, not, not using the same words. But you know, and the Ensign, you know, the Ensign, like all the homes in the Ensign had the latest home fashion. Always those were not. That wasn't didn't reflect my home. That didn't reflect the homes of my friends, you know, who'd married young and had young families and, you know, had hand me down furniture and that sort of thing. And I, you know, I had that cognitive dissonance between what the church was teaching and what. And what it was portraying because, you know, it always has to be pretty and showy and perfect, you know, in church magazines. And I mean, I realized maybe they don't want to, you know, they don't want to come photograph my torn up couch but for the ensign. But that's. That. That was the reality, actually. So, yes, I was all in. But yes, I also, you know, I saw some things that didn't quite fit the everyday life of members that I knew. And.

Slow Burn of Doubt Through the Baton Rouge Years

John Dehlin [01:16:06] Yeah, so, I mean, as I'm trying to make sense of your story, what occurs to me is you had a 15 year slow burn of lots of items accumulating on both of your shelves that very well could have, could have accumulated to the point of, by. By 93 to 95, leading to both of your exits from the church. But because of your love for each other, your commitments to your marriage, your desires for your child, your son to be raised in a, in a good community, your commitment to Mormonism as a tribe, and frankly, because the church was smart enough to recruit you both into leadership positions, you kind of dodged the 1993-1995 bullet. And in spite of some cognitive dissonance, the church still retained you both as progressive, devout, serving leaders in the church. Is that, is that an okay summary?

Martine Smith [01:17:10] That's a, that's an okay summary. That's a very good summary. We've been talking about that, about living with cognitive dissonance and how long can you do it and should you do it? And is there, is that a higher value if you live with cognitive dissonance? And I would say I lived with cognitive dissonance for decades.

John Dehlin [01:17:32] Yeah.

Martine Smith [01:17:33] And until, and that will come in the next part, but until I just didn't see the value anymore.

John Dehlin [01:17:45] But through your time in Baton Rouge, in spite of the deaths of two children and all of the intellectual and cultural problems you were both aware of, it sounds like you, you had, overall, you have fond and grateful memories for your participation in the church during all those Baton Rouge years, and even deep gratitude for the ways that both the ward and the branch and ward were able to rise to meet your needs and the ways you were able to serve fellow branch and ward members and the community through your participation in the church. Is that right, Stuart?

Stuart Smith [01:18:28] Yeah, I think that's about right.

Martine Smith [01:18:30] Yeah, it was.

John Dehlin [01:18:31] It was a great way to live, being a Mormon.

Stuart Smith [01:18:34] Right.

Martine Smith [01:18:38] And then after 18 years in Louisiana, we have a decision to make because of Stuart's employment. You want to say something?

Stuart Smith [01:18:50] Yeah. Well, you know, I was. Even though I worked for a major oil company since the mid-80s, and OPEC had. The Saudis had decided to regain control of the oil market. And so they pumped a lot of oil and the price of oil crashed. So they had been laying off people every year for 10 years. And I could tell that my position was at risk. And it became evident that I needed to look around for something else. And at the time, I guess eventually, as it turned out, I had two offers, two job offers come in about the same time. And we had to make a decision between them. One was a job that would have kept us in Louisiana, maybe in New Orleans, but it was a consultant job, a consultancy. And it was doing the very, you know, what I always wanted to do. I'd even gone back to evening school to get an mba. It took me five years to do that. And this was a job on consulting, economic engineering, economics. And it was, you know, what I'd always wanted, what I felt most interested in doing. And I had a second offer, as it turned out, in Salt Lake area. Assistant manager of a small refinery in North Salt Lake. And we were struggling, I guess, as to what to do, which one to take. And by then our son had had been recruited by several colleges for his athletic swimming. One of them was byu. And he. We'd encouraged him and he had decided to go to byu. My parents were still living in Salt Lake and their health was failing, especially my father's health. So one thing or another, and just feeling like it was, you know, going home. It was an area we knew. It was the recreational opportunities we were familiar with and all that great area. So we made the decision to take that offer and return back to Utah.

John Dehlin [01:21:23] Once you had gotten into the bishopric, Stuart, were you more faithful? Were you believing that somehow God was leading this church, that somehow it was God's church on the earth, that priesthood authority was important? And the Book of Mormon somehow was a historical document. Like,

Stuart Smith [01:21:41] I don't think. No, I don't think I was more believing. Perhaps I was more tolerant of, you know, some things, you know, and the way people believed and thought in the church. You know, I just. Well, you know, that's kind of what they think and what they feel. And I don't want to disabuse them of those notions. You know, I don't want to be antagonistic. I just want to quietly exert some influence over decisions that are made.

John Dehlin [01:22:23] I mean, it sounds like a secular orthoprax member. In other words, you didn't really. You didn't really have much belief at all, but you're in a bishopric and you're presenting and behaving as. As obedient to all the commandments, but in your own brain, you're not really taking any of the doctrine or theology or the beliefs very seriously. Is that unfair?

Stuart Smith [01:22:50] No, that's. That's not unfair. But I could see how, though. I could see how it made a difference in people's lives. If they could believe something, it made people the ones I knew. It seemed to make them happy. It seemed to make them better parents, better families. It seemed to, you know, it seemed to bring them comfort. And there were a lot of things that, you know, that people were upsetting in their lives from time to time. And yet this was a way, this was a coping mechanism for a lot of people. And I felt like if I can help them cope any better in a different way, well, then maybe it's okay.

John Dehlin [01:23:37] Yeah. Yeah. You're basically a pimo as a. In a bishopric.

Stuart Smith [01:23:44] Right.

John Dehlin [01:23:45] You know, physically and mentally out, but committed to the value of the lived Mormon experience.

Stuart Smith [01:23:52] Right.

John Dehlin [01:23:52] I think that's really interesting. I think that's really interesting.

Martine Smith [01:23:56] And I think there are a lot of them.

John Dehlin [01:23:58] Well, a lot of people now who are doing that. Yeah.

Martine Smith [01:24:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:24:01] And were you. Would you breaks by 1995, were you kind of identical to Stewart, or would you say you were in a different headspace? Martine?

Martine Smith [01:24:12] I may have been in a slightly different headspace. So in 1995, our son turns 19. He's done one year at BYU, so we're getting ready to move to Utah. He is not at all interested in serving a mission. He was active throughout his teens, got his eagle at 13, mostly because he was a swimmer and he really wanted to swim more, not have to give up his Wednesday night to Scouting. So he really worked hard and I, I helped find him opportunities to earn more merit badges. But, you know, we were insistent he was going to be an Eagle, so. But he didn't do early morning seminary. We finally convinced the bishopric and the ces, the local CS people that we would do home study seminary on Sunday with him because he was up at, you know, swimming at five every morning, and he wasn't interested in a mission. He was successful at swimming. He had aspirations of Going to the Olympics. And so mission wasn't going to be his thing. I think that was important to both of us that he serve a mission. But I think I was more hysterical about the fact that he was resisting it than Stewart, would you say?

Stuart Smith [01:25:47] Yeah, I think that's right.

Martine Smith [01:25:49] Yeah, I think so. So he completed and you know, it's his story and I'm not going to go into detail, but he didn't go at the end of his freshman year. So he didn't go at 19, he went in at 20. And by then he had his very own very personal spiritual awakening. We had nothing to do with it. It just, it was something that was on his mind and he worked it through and he felt a witness to go on a mission. And that I think still, still sustains him today. And you know, we came to respect that. He served, he served him. He came and surprised us to say he was going to go, he was going to put his papers in by then we weren't expecting it.

John Dehlin [01:26:42] Were you proud of him? Were you wanting him to serve?

Martine Smith [01:26:44] Oh, very much so.

John Dehlin [01:26:46] You wanted him to serve?

Martine Smith [01:26:47] Yeah, yeah, I was pretty much hysterical. You know, I see that in Facebook groups and I never said anything like that. I never said what I'm going to say. I never even said it to him. But you see, there's the old rather dead than unworthy that we've all learned to hate. I never said that. But what I was thinking is I had those two children, Nathaniel and Sarah, who I knew were going to the celestial kingdom because they died before the age of eight. And that's the doctrine. I didn't know where my 19 year old son was going to be. And at that point, even though my plan of salvation thing was cracking at times, I still felt like, you know, I wanted my family to be together and I didn't want my middle child to be lost. And I felt like maybe he would be if he didn't go on a mission then, then what? So I certainly never told him that. And if he watches this, he'll know now that that's what scared me at the time. Now I think it's unfortunate that I felt that way, but that was my training and I lived with cognitive dissonance, which meant to me that I went sort of back and forth at times a little more believing and a little less. During the months that I lived alone in Baton Rouge while Stuart had started his job here, I took the time to read the Book of Mormon in an intensive way that I hadn't been able to do before because I was living alone. I had no responsibilities other than taking care of the house. So no, I was. So I was pretty, pretty tight with the Book of Mormon during that, those four, four months.

John Dehlin [01:28:57] Okay.

Martine Smith [01:28:59] We moved in a great area.

John Dehlin [01:29:01] Avenues or the Harvard Yale.

Martine Smith [01:29:04] The Harvard Yale area turned out after we made the offer on the house, you know, I'd gone with a real estate agent that day. And then I, I guess we seen the house. Low bungalow. Used to drive through Salt Lake and think. I hated those deep purple brick bungalows. I would never want to live in one of those. We've been in one for nearly 30 years now. And I called Stuart and I said, hey, I think maybe we found the house. And so we made an offer. And that night we, we went back to his parents and I explained to my father in law where the house was. And he said, oh, he said, well, I left on my mission from that ward. So we had sort of returned back to where he had lived as a young man and weren't aware of it. Great area, you know, at the time. I remember talking to one of the neighbors that night after we made the offer and it was accepted, I went up the street and found some members and you know, I asked what the area was like and, and she said very, very, very reverently, oh, this is the Stake of the Prophets. And I said, what do you mean? And she said, well, right now we have three apostles and two of them are still living and they're in the First Presidency, by the way, and the other was Elder Worthland. But Ezra Tough Benson had lived in the ward, George Albert Smith had lived in the ward, Spencer Kimball had lived in the stake and you know, had number of 70, the president of the Salt Lake Temple. I mean, when I made the offer on the house, I had no idea about that. But you know, it was, it was sort of, we got, we got, you know, we started all those things we weren't able to do in, you know, in Louisiana. We, we started working at the cannery, you know, volunteering at the cannery, at the dairy, at the, you know, every, every opportunity to serve in that way that we hadn't had in Louisiana. We, we embraced.

Moving to New England and Stuart Called as Bishop

John Dehlin [01:31:16] So yeah, this is the area where Nelson raised his family, right?

Martine Smith [01:31:20] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:31:20] Where President Nelson raised his family. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know, I, I know that since this is where Peggy Fletcher Stack lives, this is where Doug Fabrizio lives. Like this is a really elite.

Martine Smith [01:31:33] It still is. We have no general authorities anymore. They've all moved, like several moved to

John Dehlin [01:31:38] Bountiful in North Salt Lake.

Martine Smith [01:31:39] Salt. North Salt Lake and Bountiful.

Stuart Smith [01:31:41] Yeah.

Martine Smith [01:31:41] Across. Across from the, the Eagle whatever golf course. But at the time, yeah, it was, it was, it was, it was crawling with, with church authorities and had been, you know, you mentioned church embracing science. So the stake has, when we moved in, the stake had a history, a book, hardcover book that went to 1975. Okay. And President Nelson was stake president at that time from 69 to 76, I think. And when you read that, you know, Henry Iring, the original Henry Eyring and other well known, you know, scientists that lived in the area, I mean, our state used to have a monthly, you know, it was like in the 40s, used to have maybe up to the 50s, a monthly fireside. And the firesides were like scientific stuff. You know, how science and, and Mormonism worked together, you know, how they each supported each other. So I don't think you find that anymore. Yeah, yeah, it's more Covenant Path and go to the Temple now.

Stuart Smith [01:33:05] But.

John Dehlin [01:33:06] Well, based on the, based on the trajectory that I've heard so far, this is likely, I'm guessing, only going to solidify your commitment to the church because, you know, the church was already effective in bringing you into positions of leadership, which in effect cemented your commitment to the church at least up through 95. As soon as they're putting you in the Harvard, Yale area, as soon as you're in the Harvard, Yale area surrounded by general authorities and apostles and like, I can only imagine that it's going to be even cementing further your commitment to the church. Yeah, yeah, yeah. How long were you in the ward before Stuart gets called as bishop?

Martine Smith [01:33:54] Seven years.

John Dehlin [01:33:55] Seven years.

Martine Smith [01:33:55] Seven years.

John Dehlin [01:33:57] So let's. Is there anything you want to say about those seven years?

Martine Smith [01:34:00] Seven years.

Stuart Smith [01:34:01] Well, let me just return to our son and his mission. A decision. For a moment, Martine talked about how, I think, upset she was that he was, you know, considering not going to go. Not going. And I felt like, you know, it needed to be his decision, of course, but I, I thought it would be a good experience for him to go and to serve a mission, because it had been a good experience for me. I knew it was a growing, maturing kind of experience. I knew that even as I returned to BYU from my mission and as I began interviewing, as I approached graduation at byu, I was told by several recruiters and people that I interviewed with how candidates from BYU just tended to be more mature and more thoughtful than many other, you know, graduates coming out at that time. So I Knew it made a difference. You know, I mean, I knew and felt more comfortable talking with people because of the mission experience. And so that's, you know, I wanted that for him too. I wanted him to at least have the opportunity to feel that. And, you know, whatever decisions he made and whatever he chose to believe or not believe, that was entirely up to him. I did want to see him go. And that occurred shortly after we moved back to Salt Lake City.

Martine Smith [01:35:48] Yeah, like a year after.

Stuart Smith [01:35:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:35:50] Yeah. And then those seven years before Stuart gets called as bishop, what was your like? Was it just your faith strengthening throughout those seven years?

Martine Smith [01:36:01] Yes, but I, you know, like, I attended Sunstone symposium because now he was close. You know, he was close by. And so it wasn't. I mean, those shelf items were still, you know, there was still a shelf. And then you're in Salt Lake, so you actually hear the news. You hear more of the news. You hear more of the disturbing things. Sometimes we, I think, were lucky to live in a, you know, in a stake with really good leadership and in a ward with also really good leadership. You know, we became friends with the bishop and now it's, you know, and his wife. It's been 30 years. And, you know, we're still, we're still close friends. They're still our closest friends. So I don't know what else I did, you know, I went down to BYU Women's Conference also, you know, I read more because was more available. You know, the books were more available. So, yes, we were all in. I mean, the Bonneville Stake, you know, has a strings orchestra. They put on, you know, we have a 30 minute classical music prelude before stake conference. You know, it's like, it's wonderful. You know, it's just President Hinckley came once because his son was our stake president at that time and said, you know, you are. This area is highly favored. Which is true. But then you wonder why are we highly favored and others are not? So, you know, used to give a concert with a general authority speaker in like July or August time frame with the. Yeah. With the strings playing. But there were, you know, also different opportunities to serve. Frankly, I loved the temple. I attended the temple weekly. I wasn't until I went back to school. I started back at byu, but even then I did the first couple years here at the extension. But even then, like, my temple clothes were in the trunk of my car and sometimes I would stop at the Provo Temple and do a session on my way home. So. But I attended Sunstone and I loved it. You know.

John Dehlin [01:38:32] Yeah. So I mean, I guess what I conclude with at this part of the story is even with access to information about church problems and even with weak or even non existent faith throughout the 80s and 90s and even until today, the church can keep people in if there's enough, you know, there's enough of spousal motivation to keep someone in, plus a desire to raise your kids in a healthy, happy environment, plus ward experiences that are enjoyable and fulfilling and uplifting enough, plus enough leadership opportunities to feel like you're, you know, empowered. And if you have access to privilege or high level leadership or some of the more fancy benefits of, of Mormon culture, that's enough to keep people in and engaged, even with knowledge of, of problematic church history and culture and even with a weak or non existent faith. It's basically the PIMO slash progressive Mormon phenomenon that is now still very prevalent with, with Patrick Mason Terrell and Fiona Givens, Richard Bushman, Claudia Bushman kind of Mormonism. You guys lived that in, in the 90s and early 2000s. You kind of exemplified it.

Martine Smith [01:40:08] I, I would say, I mean I was still, you know, I didn't really start questioning the existence of God until later. So I was still very much, you know, a believer in God, in, in a Mormon God in, you know, in a Christ. And I've never, I never was somebody to pray morning and night. My prayers have always, were always just in the car, whatever, you know. I think it's both Elder Holland and President Eyring who did a fireside with single adults a few years ago who were just like all shocked that I wouldn't approach God in such a casual way. Why not? The Book of Mormon say pray in your fields, pray in your houses. Doesn't say make sure you kneel down and use the and thou. It just says pray, you know, well, if we don't do it and we're apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ, why do you think you can do that? So, and I always, I've always been very much into, I'm not a musician, but very much into church music, the hymns and the songs. And so a lot of times in my car, the song that would come to me, that would sort of be my cue that it was time that maybe I should be praying about something, was Heavenly Father, are you really there? And do you hear and answer everyone's prayer? And I would sing that to myself doing both of them parents and the children. And then I just talk and I'm sorry, some people think that's just too informal for God, But I honestly do not believe that if there's a God, he worries much about how the prayer is uttered. And anyway, we can go back to the starving children.

John Dehlin [01:42:04] Yeah, yeah. And so real commitment and faithfulness to the church, but constant cognitive dissonance is what I just heard you basically say, which is exhausting. Yeah, well, yeah. And we're still. There's still two decades to go in your story.

Martine Smith [01:42:22] Well, we're going to speed through those last two decades. Well, maybe I'll jump in there with so many. After we returned to Salt Lake, I went back to school, and I wanted to go to byu. Even though I lived right by the U, I wanted that religious influence in my education that was important to me at the time. So I graduated from BYU with a degree in Political Science in 2000. The summer of 2001, having a degree in political science didn't necessarily lead to.

John Dehlin [01:43:04] Tell me about it.

Martine Smith [01:43:07] To rewarding employment in any way. I had, however, interned before graduating. I had interned in the state senate, so I had some connections there. And in 2002, I was hired by a different state senator, one who represented actually this area, if I remember correctly. He's long gone now, but I got hired for his campaign in the fall of 2002. And that is where our story continues. So it is early, late October, early November, and Stuart is serving on the High council. He's been there for a year. And we know our bishop, who's only been in a couple years, is moving because of his employment. So a new bishop will be called. And during the weeks leading up to the call, Stuart is aware. He's made aware by the stake president, I guess, that there is a short list of men in our ward who are being considered as a potential bishop. And from that time on, Stuart avoids answering the phone whenever it looks like the stake executive secretary is calling. And a Friday night, I am at the. It's just a week or so before election Day, and I am at the campaign office working late, late, late. And I get a call from Stuart. You want to pick it up from here?

Stuart Smith [01:44:56] Well, yeah, Let me back up just a little bit. You know, when we moved back Salt Lake and we were trying to integrate into the culture and the new surroundings and the neighborhood and the ward and so forth. I think I had served in several callings in the, you know, like the high priest group assistant. And eventually I was made high priest group leader. And somewhere along there, we had a change in stake presidency. And I remember it was in the summer, it was June, I guess, and in July. 24 July, of course, is a state holiday in Utah for Pioneer Day. And one of the wards in our stake used to put on a breakfast, chuck wagon, chuck wagon breakfast for Pioneer Day. And many of the members of the stake, the other wards as well, you know, everybody was invited. It was a bit of a fundraising event also for their youth programs. Anyway, as we're standing in line, get our breakfast, pick up our food and so forth, the new stake president, who'd just been sustained a month before, was in line. And I just greeted him and congratulated him on the new calling and so forth. He's really nice guy. We. He actually, there were some family connections with him, and he was pretty well plugged in to top church leadership. So anyway, he greeted me. He was very nice, very kind. And I saw a look in his eye and I thought, oh, it looks like he's considering, you know, he might call me for something. And sure enough, I don't know, within a less than a month or so, I was called to serve on the High Council. And, you know, at the time, we were still, you know, we were making friends. We had good friends, and we were well integrated into the ward, I think, and I didn't want to at this point. I knew I had turned down a calling before, you know, in church, and I knew how that kind of ostracized. Ostracized us. So I went along and I accepted the calling. And, you know, it was interesting. It wasn't really that satisfying to be on High Council, but I did get to, you know, visit other wards in the stake and visit with other bishoprics and get to hear the kinds of issues they were dealing with and their concerns. And I got to appreciate that these were men, were basically good men who were trying their best to do what they believed to be their responsibility to the members of their ward and to lift them up as much as they could.

John Dehlin [01:48:28] I mean, I'm going to keep coming back to this theme, but I guess in terms of Mormon hierarchy of positions, I think bishopric member is lower. It's kind of like elders quorum president, and then maybe bishopric member and then maybe stake high member of Stake High Council, and then like bishop. Right. And so this represents kind of an advancement for you to a higher level of Mormon leadership because it's a stake level calling. Now you're traveling around as a stake representative speaking towards representing the Stake. You're sitting on disciplinary councils, you're meeting in councils with the Stake presidency. I think it's a higher office. But but just to be clear, checking in with you, you, you, your beliefs probably hadn't changed that much. And so in terms of you being a literal believer in like fundamental Mormon truth claims, you kind of were still not really super believer, right?

Stuart Smith [01:49:38] There were, there were a lot of shelf items.

John Dehlin [01:49:40] Yeah.

Stuart Smith [01:49:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:49:41] So what's that like to accept a higher level calling when your beliefs really don't match that, you know, is, is there cognitive dissonance? Are you just like, by that point it's just not important to you that your beliefs match your, your position?

Stuart Smith [01:50:01] I guess at that point, you know, I'd lived with this tension for a long time. I, I felt like, you know, Martine wanted me to serve in church leadership positions, was thought that I deserved to be called to church leadership positions, that I would make a good leader because of my, maybe our experience, especially with the children that we had and our, the empathy that I think I was able to feel for many people as they, in their day to day struggles.

John Dehlin [01:50:46] Yeah.

Stuart Smith [01:50:48] So, yeah. And I, at that point in time, I think she would have been upset if I had said no, if I turned it down. I think, as I said, we sort of knew the stake president a little bit through a family connection. And so I knew that would obviously get back to family. So all in all, I guess I just decided to go with it and do the best I could. And, you know, whatever degree of influence I had, Stake High Council is not an executive position. So you're basically there. You know, it's just kind of a contact point with various bishoprics, whatever ward you're assigned to, between that and the stake presidency and other things. And so it's not. A position of a lot of influence. It's just a position of kind of seeing how things operate, learning how that goes.

John Dehlin [01:52:05] And Martine, I know that truth claims matter to you now and because I've known you for the past 20 years and, you know, you're really into this stuff. So when you hear about Stewart saying, I accepted a call into the Sick Eye Council because I thought Martine would want me to, even though I really didn't believe that much. How do you, how does that land on you right now?

Martine Smith [01:52:28] Right now? I don't, I don't, I don't remember. I mean, I know he was called to high council, I know he served for a year, but I don't have a really good recollection of like, how I found out he was being called or anything like that. He had never served on high council in Baton Rouge. He had served as state clerk For a few months.

Stuart Smith [01:52:54] So,

Martine Smith [01:52:56] you know, I.

Stuart Smith [01:52:59] Well, she had already expressed some disappointment that I had not been called as bishop because the bishop in our ward

Martine Smith [01:53:09] had changed just a couple years before.

Stuart Smith [01:53:12] Before that. And you. You were disappointed that I had not been called as a bishop at that time. I remember that very much.

Martine Smith [01:53:21] Yeah. Because, you know, it's one of those weird things that you don't that in hindsight I can't really explain. But when I went through the house before we made an offer on it, I felt good about the house and I felt like, Stuart will be bishop of this ward someday. So five years after we move in, a new bishop is called and it is in Stuart. And I'm sort of puzzled that, you know, that, that I was wrong. So, but.

John Dehlin [01:54:02] But I guess I'm asking a slightly different question. Looking back now as. Looking as 2023 Martine, are you sad for 2002 Stewart, who is accepting a stake level calling because he thinks his. His wife would want him to, even though he really doesn't believe. Or are you grateful for 2002 Stewart, or, you know, respectful reverend, like what? Or have you even thought about that?

Martine Smith [01:54:32] I haven't thought about that.

John Dehlin [01:54:34] That's fine. Okay.

Martine Smith [01:54:36] I haven't thought about that.

John Dehlin [01:54:38] Yeah, it's not a big deal.

Martine Smith [01:54:39] I might think about it.

Stuart Smith [01:54:40] But yeah, ask her if she's grateful for 2023 Stuart, and

John Dehlin [01:54:47] we'll get there. Okay.

Stuart Smith [01:54:49] All right.

Martine Smith [01:54:50] So let me say I'm going to take us all the way back for just a second to 1975. We've been married a year and we have Nathaniel, who's two months old. And I had several friends. You know how it is at byu. I had several friends who'd gotten married about the same time. We had, you know, within few days or a month of each other. And without an exception, all of them had, I'm not going to say second thoughts about their marriage or the marriage partner, but really reservations. That first year had not been what they had expected. They were disappointed in their spouse. They had had occasion to be really upset at their spouse during that first year. And I remember us celebrating our first wedding anniversary. And I remember having this thought that I, not only did I not feel that way, but I felt more strongly that I had made the right choice and that I had married a man who was even better than I had thought him to be. Here we were taking care of a very sick infant together and he was up to the task. He was a responsible. I may have said that in the first. In part one, I'M not sure, but, you know, after Nathaniel was born, Stuart took on extra shifts at work. So he was. I think I did, once a week at least. He worked 16 hour days just because he knew we were going to need the extra money, you know, to take care of this sick child. So I've always known he's a good man. I've always wanted other people to realize he's not only a good man, he's a very intelligent man.

John Dehlin [01:56:57] Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I. I don't know. Stuart, we're going to talk about you serving as Bishop, but I don't know if serving as a semi believer or non believer comes at a cost. But you're clearly doing it as a way to make Martine happy, not necessarily because you're really wanting to do it, right?

Stuart Smith [01:57:25] Oh, yeah, definitely. I mean, there are definitely family reasons for doing it, not because. Yeah, I really had an ambition to be a Stake High counselor. Yeah, no, but, and, but Bishop is different. I mean, she had, she had, you know, in multiple occasions she had expressed her disappointment to me that I had not been called earlier as a bishop. And I kept telling her, hey, I'm happy. I don't want to be Bishop. Yeah, you know, I don't. I'm. It doesn't bother me. You know, I'm. I'm glad I didn't even have to face that decision. So, yeah, don't worry about it. That was my attitude.

John Dehlin [01:58:07] Yeah,

Stuart Smith [01:58:10] but she was still. I felt hurt.

Martine Smith [01:58:14] I just knew he'd be a good fisher.

Stuart Smith [01:58:17] You know, her husband didn't get the recognition he deserved or whatever. Or she felt he deserved.

John Dehlin [01:58:23] So how long were you in the State High Council, Stuart?

Stuart Smith [01:58:26] I think it was two years. Maybe I'm wrong.

Martine Smith [01:58:28] No, it's just a year.

Stuart Smith [01:58:31] And then what happened anyway? Well, at some point, the, the current serving bishop in our ward had some employment changes and he was going to have to relocate out of town. And I think somehow we, we knew that it was no big, it was not a secret. And so there had to be a. You know, there was, obviously there's going to be a replacement. And it was discussed at least one, maybe two High Council meetings, I can't remember. And I remember the stake president said something. Well, you know, we're working off kind of. We have kind of a short list we're working off of. And I remember. So I was thought about that, uh, oh, he kind of looked at me when he said that. And I thought, oh, I bet I'm on that short list. So I began to think you know, if this happens, what would I do? For one thing, I thought about, well, if I accept it, who would I want to serve as my counselors? So I began to think about that and thought about who I thought I would want to serve with me. And within a week, the dreaded phone call came and it was, you know, it was the stake executive secretary and asking if Martina and I could come to an appointment with the bishop the next morning. It was a state president or bishop, I'm sorry, state president, if I could come to a meeting with them. It was a Saturday morning, right?

Martine Smith [02:00:32] It was 9 o'. Clock.

Stuart Smith [02:00:33] 9 o' clock Saturday morning.

John Dehlin [02:00:35] Was it dreaded for you?

Stuart Smith [02:00:37] Oh, oh, yeah.

Martine Smith [02:00:38] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:00:38] And again, why?

Stuart Smith [02:00:41] Well, number one, I knew it would be a ton of work. Frankly, I had no idea how much work it was going to be. But anyway, and, you know, I knew I had the issue of, well, can I do this without a full throated testimony kind of thing? You know, can I really do this? Should I try to do it? Yeah. So I had concerns, but I had a premonition, I guess, that it was going to happen.

John Dehlin [02:01:24] Yeah. And the premonition's name was Martine. Yeah.

Stuart Smith [02:01:28] Yeah. Well, I don't think it was kidding.

John Dehlin [02:01:30] I'm kidding.

Stuart Smith [02:01:31] It was just you kind of anticipate things and you, you. I mean, I was in a position that I would normally be considered. I mean, it was not something that ought to out. Out of the question for sure.

John Dehlin [02:01:43] Yeah.

Stuart Smith [02:01:46] So anyway, we got the call and. Told them. I told this executive secretary that we would be there and I told Martine. And the next morning we went and visited with the stake president. And I don't remember what he said exactly, but sure enough, he called me to be the bishop. He called us, frankly, you know, always call your what, the wife with the bishop. And so we talked a little bit and so on, and we knew that some of the issues that were going on in the ward and the changes that had to be made and so forth. And. Yeah, and then he said, you know, if, you know, if you have, if you could think about today, today, you know, if you'll think about what, who you want as your counselors, if you're able to get that information to me by this evening, by noon, by noon anyway, we can go ahead and, and take care of it tomorrow in sacrament meeting. And since I'd already thought about it, I already knew who I wanted.

John Dehlin [02:03:06] Yeah.

Stuart Smith [02:03:07] So I told him. He was kind of surprised. I think he's like, oh, great, you know, great. So let's do it. So I guess we did it the

Martine Smith [02:03:23] next day, the next 24 hours.

Stuart Smith [02:03:24] Day, so. 24 hours. You can imagine how much training I had in 24 hours. Anyway, when my name was presented, sustained by the congregation, as, you know, as they're asked to do. One of the two brothers that I had wanted to serve as a counselor was. One was a young, bright kid. I mean, I say that he was younger than me, very sharp and. But, you know, had four or five kids already, I think. And anyway, he was a good man. The other one was less. What would you say? Typical.

Martine Smith [02:04:23] Typical. Less traditional, less orthodox looking at least.

Stuart Smith [02:04:29] Right. Had a beard.

Martine Smith [02:04:36] He has a beard. He's always had a beard.

Stuart Smith [02:04:38] He never wore a white shirt.

Martine Smith [02:04:42] Didn't own a coat.

Stuart Smith [02:04:43] Well, you know, I don't even own the tie. But anyway, he had a heart of gold.

Martine Smith [02:04:50] Still does.

Stuart Smith [02:04:55] And I knew his heart was in the right place. So I had given the state prison the name. And he called the name from the pulpit. There was an audible gasp through the congregation.

Martine Smith [02:05:23] It's not that the ward didn't love him. It's just that they could not picture that man as a counselor in the bishopric, obviously,

Stuart Smith [02:05:35] But.

Martine Smith [02:05:37] But he served.

Stuart Smith [02:05:38] He stood up and they sustained him. So we. We moved forward.

Stuart's Experience Serving as Bishop

Martine Smith [02:05:44] And he never wore a suit, didn't own a suit. He never wore a sport coat or blazer. He owned one, and he wore those at funerals, at ward funerals. He is. He's amazing with everyone, but especially with the elderly in the ward, with the widows in the ward. Just entirely dedicated to doing whatever. He had a job that gave him a lot of freedom, a lot of flexibility during the day. So he was the one that, you know, that anybody could call upon to. To move anything, to fix anything. And. And he can do it all. And. And at the same time, just very, very, as we say, very strong in the gospel, very faithful, very believing. He's also our neighbor.

Stuart Smith [02:06:44] And if you ask me, you know, again, why did I say yes? Why did I accept that calling? Part of it was, as we said, you know, I thought it would make Martine happy to have me accept that calling. I also. Felt like, again, family, our son had returned, I guess, from his mission. And, you know, I guess I just. I didn't want him to find out somehow that I had just turned down that call. And the other thing was my father. My father had served as a bishop. In fact, he was serving as a bishop when I was born. And the night I was born, my mother tells the story that he had Been out visiting with a couple that was having problems, on the verge of divorce. He didn't get back in after visiting counseling with them until around 11pm or midnight. By then, there were no cell phones in those days, so my mom had no way of communicating with him, but she could tell that she was going into labor, so she had already called a taxi to get her to the hospital when my father showed up. And anyway, I knew that he was. He had Parkinson's by then and he was failing. And I knew that. I thought that if I told him, you know, that his son had been called as a bishop, that it would please him. And I knew he didn't have that much longer to live. So. So those, those were the reasons, I guess. And then the final reason, maybe the one, maybe the real clincher was I thought, you know, I've seen good leadership in the church and I've seen bad leadership in the church, and maybe, maybe if I take this calling, maybe if I do this, maybe I'll cause less harm than someone else who might be called instead.

John Dehlin [02:09:48] So that's a good reason to be bishop.

Stuart Smith [02:09:52] For all those reasons, I accepted.

Martine Smith [02:09:56] And that's the reason, you know, when he was released and we were walking through the ward building the night before he was released, and I asked him, why did you say yes? And he said, I just thought that maybe for the time, the duration that I served, I could. I could protect the ward from someone who might

John Dehlin [02:10:22] do more harm.

Martine Smith [02:10:23] Do more harm.

John Dehlin [02:10:25] Yeah.

Martine Smith [02:10:25] So, you know, even then, I mean, we were aware of that. You know, he was called at 9 o' clock on Saturday morning. He was, he was sustained 24 hours later. It wasn't, you know, we see bishops come in and go so much in the church. We don't. I don't. I wonder how many people think about this. It wasn't until he had been a bishop for several years that, or maybe even after that, it dawned on me how, except for previous callings, There is no training. It's not like they call a man a month ahead and then, you know, he meets with the Stake Presidency every week for a few hours to get training on how to run things. How do finances run? How do you know? How do you interact with the auxiliaries, how. There is none of that. 24 hours later, he was in the bishop's office, newly ordained bishop. And somehow even members believe there's like magic pixie, bishop dust that is distilled upon your head when you're ordained a bishop. And especially with all of the, you know, the, the abuse issues and all of that. I, it was several years later, but I started thinking, you know, you can have someone in the ward, a young woman or grown woman who's been needing to go talk to someone, but she doesn't like the current bishop, so she waits until a new bishop is called. And she could have been one of those people outside the door of Stuart's bishop office with a huge problem for which he had had no training to deal with. And yet she would be expecting wisdom and inspiration from this man who 24 hours before didn't even know he was going to be bishop. But the church does that every single Sunday.

Stuart Smith [02:12:53] Yeah, yeah. So after sacrament meeting, stake presidents called us over into the residing room where they performed the ordinations. And then, you know, we shook hands and I said, well, I guess I need to get down to the office. So as I, as I walked down to the bishop's office, there is a line of people standing outside the door waiting to see the bishop.

Martine Smith [02:13:27] I mean, somebody could be, could be, could have been there with a serious abuse case and what, at that point, they've not even been told what to do about it. You know, what resources are available. That's, it's quite unbelievable if you think about it, that that's how the church operates.

Stuart Smith [02:13:52] And I remember the first year, first two years, first year at least, certainly it was just like drinking out of a fire hose. It was like one thing after the other. And the bishop is the essential man in the ward. There is nothing anybody can do. It seems like organizationally or otherwise, it doesn't involve the bishop. And I once sat down with the handbook of instructions and tried to go through it and understand all of the responsibilities that a bishop is supposed to have. And if I was doing all of that and if I did it properly, you know, as it should be done with the appropriate amount of effort, I counted up the hours. It was 80 hours a week. And that's in addition to your regular day job.

John Dehlin [02:14:59] Wait 80 hours a week on top of 40 hour job.

Stuart Smith [02:15:02] Yeah, yeah.

Martine Smith [02:15:05] Which is impossible.

Stuart Smith [02:15:06] 60 to 80 hours. If I was, if I was doing everything I should have been doing according to the program, according to all of the things, everything the bishop, every new program, every new item the bishop had to be involved with somehow at some level. And all of those things took time or should have to really think about and really execute them with some level of skill and competency. So, yeah, I mean, in fact, you know, President Hinckley gave an address. I don't know if it was in. I think it was a general conference one time. But how much. Even they recognized, I think at some point that they were putting way too much on bishops. Way, way too. Every new. Every new program, it all came out. It all had to be administered by the bishop. And they just. At some point, even they began to realize, oh, well, maybe we're. Maybe our expectations are too high.

John Dehlin [02:16:21] Yeah.

Stuart Smith [02:16:23] But that didn't stop them. They still kept, you know, they may have regretted it, but they didn't stop them.

Martine Smith [02:16:31] Well, they've now tried to take some of that away.

Stuart Smith [02:16:34] Yeah.

Martine Smith [02:16:35] You know, by putting the bishop in charge of the youth.

John Dehlin [02:16:38] Yeah.

Martine Smith [02:16:38] And putting more responsibility on the Relief Society president.

Stuart Smith [02:16:41] Right. That, that's. That is definitely part of that, I'm sure. Was driven by. They were just running bishops into the ground.

Martine Smith [02:16:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:16:52] I'm sorry. That's hard. Life's hard enough, right?

Stuart Smith [02:16:56] It was. Yeah. Yeah.

Martine Smith [02:16:58] Yeah. And yet our situation was quite different. We were empty nesters. We'd already been empty nesters, but for 10 years. So, you know, I was home alone, but I wasn't home, you know, with half a dozen screaming kids without their dad there. So, you know, I was. I was in a better. I was in a better place, except I was in the middle of a clinical depression. But that was. I remember when. When the stake president issued the calling. I remember sitting there and thinking, yes, I've wanted this, but like, there couldn't be a worse time for it right now, because right now I don't want it, because right now I'm falling apart myself.

John Dehlin [02:17:43] So why were you so depressed, Martine?

Martine Smith [02:17:46] So it was about a year after I'd graduated from byu. Like I said, I was, you know, yes, I had a job. I had a temporary job working for a political campaign, a state senate campaign, basically. I really didn't see much future as far as that was concerned. I didn't know at the time, although I'd sort of been semi diagnosed my last couple years at byu, but they hadn't been cleared enough. I didn't realize I was adhd, so I tended to look for the wrong kind of job, like somebody's assistant, which, when you can't keep your own schedule straight, you shouldn't be trying to keep somebody else's schedule straight. And I wouldn't find out for another year that I was adhd. So I was just lost at that point. And I was starting. I was still having questions about the church. Like I said, I knew. I knew he would do a good job, but I didn't know that I was going to be doing a good job as a bishop's wife at that time. And my models, I had a couple of models for bishops wives, and they were quiet, out of the way. Don't attract attention, don't be part of the gossip. You don't know anything. Which was the case. And I think hopefully I played that part pretty well. I had had two friends, bishops wives who were that way, smart women in their own right, but they didn't meddle in what was happening with the ward. There was one example about not quite a year after he was called as bishop, we had our first divorce in the ward. And I'm not going to give any details because all the parties are still living, but we were traveling, we were on a road trip together. And at one point he said, I think I should tell you that so and so husband is going to be served divorce papers today. And I had no idea. And they were like close neighbors, and I had no clue. And he said, well, he said, I thought I should tell you because more than half the ward already knows. And I didn't. And that was the way. That's the way it was. He was always very discreet. Not every bishop is that way. And I, you know, they were parents with teenage kids with problems. And I took phone calls and, you know, told Stuart to call them back, but I never knew what was going on. And to this day, 15 years later, I still don't. And that's, you know, that, that's fine.

Stuart Smith [02:20:51] But let me just say one thing additional that made my first year or two very difficult was her depression. And I was surprised, I guess I didn't realize it at time until I had been serving for several months and I realized just how serious her depression was. And, you know, here I was, I guess, trying to counsel other people and their problems and their issues and their marital relationships, and I was struggling with my own. And it was, that was a challenge.

John Dehlin [02:21:40] And I guess, yeah, like, you can't like, resign as bishop two or three years in. I mean, theoretically you can, but then it, it kind of causes a scandal. It causes people to ask what happened, or it makes people think he couldn't handle it because there's an expectation that bishops have served for five years. So in many ways there's kind of undue influence that keeps you maybe from doing what's best for your marriage or for your wife or for your family. You know, you kind of put the church. And aren't there promises that like, you know, make sacrifices and you'll, your family will Be blessed. You know what I mean?

Martine Smith [02:22:23] Mm.

Stuart Smith [02:22:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:22:25] And that might cause you to make choices that aren't necessarily best for you or your spouse or your family. Is that fair or not?

Stuart Smith [02:22:33] I think that's fair for most. For me, I didn't really expect, you know, God's up there keeping a scorecard, and if you. A check list, and if you do a certain thing, he'll bless you with a certain thing. You know, that. That. No longer that model. No longer. I no longer believed that. I just knew that it was hard to watch her when I thought this. What is going to. You know what? I accepted the call that it would make her, you know, happy because she had been disappointed before, and it didn't feel that way for many months.

John Dehlin [02:23:21] Yeah. Okay.

Running for the Legislature and Marriage Equality

Martine Smith [02:23:25] So. So I had interned in the. In the Senate in 2001, and then I did it again in 2002, and I thought, why don't I run for the legislature? I'm turning 50. It's a good way to celebrate my 50th birthday. So, you know, there wasn't. It's. It's a mostly Democrat district. It is even more strongly so now than it was back then. And so I filed as a Republican, but as a moderate Republican. So I had worked for a fairly moderate Republican in the Senate whose career was in education, so that made him more moderate than most. So since I didn't have a job, I put my heart and soul into my campaign. I had contacts because I had worked up at the Capitol and I had support from the Republican Party. 2004 was also in Utah. One of the items on the ballot was Amendment 3, which was the marriage amendment. I'm just going to read it so I don't mess it up. But the amendment said that marriage consists only of the legal union between a man and a woman. And number two, no domestic union, however denominated, may be recognized as a marriage or given the same or substantially equivalent legal effect. I agreed with part one. I disagreed with the second item because I was in favor. I thought that made me very progressive as a Republican. I was in favor of civil unions. I didn't see any problem with that. I did a lot of door knocking because I had the time. My district was obviously around our area. Harvard, Yale and going down into more, the center city, but also up in Summit County. So it didn't include Park City proper, but Summit and Jeremy Ranch and a number of other areas there, just at Kimball Junction, all of that. So I did a lot of. I did a lot of door knocking there and actually, up there, I was really well received. Yes, I lost the election, but up in Summit county, I got 40% of the vote as a Republican, and to this day, no other Republican has ever gotten anywhere close to the numbers that I got, both up there and even down in our area. But I knocked on doors, and you talk to people, obviously, at the door. And after all, my part of my district is 9th and 9th, a very gay area of Salt Lake. I would talk to people at the door, talk about education and my more liberal views on a lot of issues. And then a number of times, I would be leaving the door, and they would say, how are you going to vote on Amendment three? And sometimes I was coy, and I would say, well, I only have one vote. You only have one vote. Does it really matter? But, you know, I had to respond that I would vote for it, but I was in favor of civil unions. There was one time when I was walking on. Along 9th east, knocking on doors, and I still remember the house, and I've wanted to go back and talk to those people, the occupants, many times since. I knocked on the door, and a man came to the door. And eventually, I think the second man, his partner, came to the door as well as we chatted. That was the year Stuart and I had been married 30 years. They had been together 28 years. And as I chatted with them and heard about their relationship and their problems with Amendment 3 and the fact that their relationship was not respected, I walked away from that door thinking, there is no difference between that couple and us. They have been together nearly as long as we have, and their union is just like ours. I don't see any reason why they can't be married. So that was 2004, and that was the beginning of my opening up to LGBT issues, which I really hadn't up to that point. So, like I said, I still know what house. What house that is. And I have. I'd like to know if they still live there, because I'd love to go tell them that they're the ones that started turning me around.

John Dehlin [02:28:52] Okay, so that was kind of the beginnings of your LGBTQ awakening.

Martine Smith [02:28:57] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:28:58] That's good.

Martine Smith [02:28:59] You know, because I had listened to, like, Romney, you know, when he was. I think he was still governor in Massachusetts. You know, I'd listen to Romney, you know, say, well, why are we gonna have. You know, we're gonna have marriage licenses that don't say husband and wife, but, like, spouse A and spouse B, and that's just gonna be horrible. We can't have that. Anyway, I, you know, bless his heart. I actually like Mitt Romney, but. But a lot of that has happened and it hasn't exactly broken us up.

John Dehlin [02:29:34] Yeah. So I think where you and I first met was on a. On a Internet forum called New Order Mormon.

New Order Mormon and Deconstructing Core Beliefs

Martine Smith [02:29:45] New Order Mormon.

John Dehlin [02:29:47] We referred to it as Nom N O M, but it was New Order Mormon. So can you talk about your Internet Mormon awakening? Kind of when it started, where it started and how it evolved?

Martine Smith [02:30:03] I don't believe I was aware of chat groups, and I think maybe it's because you needed to already know somebody, you know, not necessarily be referred, but you needed to already have been part of whether it was some Sunstone groups or something like that. I attended Sunstone, but I didn't really know anybody there. You know, I knew sometimes who the speakers were. You know, I could recognize them in the hallway, that sort of thing. But I didn't really have direct connections. So I think I probably started doing some. It was probably before Google, but anyway, I probably started, you know, using search engines with my questions and maybe about polygamy. I remember who's a. Who's a guy in Canada. That was an early.

John Dehlin [02:30:57] So Bob McHugh.

Martine Smith [02:30:59] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I remember emailing him, I believe

John Dehlin [02:31:05] also Richard Packham was a big.

Martine Smith [02:31:06] And Richard Packham, I remember emailing him with some of my questions. I don't remember because he had been

John Dehlin [02:31:11] a bishop, he had had interactions with Elder Holland and then he had come out as an ex Mormon and he

Martine Smith [02:31:18] had a blog or something. I mean, that's how I found him. So, you know, I started reading and a lot of that, A lot of those answers were answers to questions I had. A lot of the topics were things that I had been concerned about.

John Dehlin [02:31:36] So what did Norder Mormon mean to you? Do you remember?

Martine Smith [02:31:40] Yeah, as you remember, and I'm sure it's still the case. It's the case on ex Mormon Reddit and whatever is, you're anonymous and you get to. You go into a particular topic and you find other people who have come to the same conclusions you have. They may have read the same materials you have. You're in the same place and you know that in your ward, you don't know anybody else who's in that place or in your family, you feel rather lonely. I mean, Stuart, you know, once I got onto New or the Mormon, there were things I could bring up with Stuart, but he was still somewhat protective of the church at the time. And, you know, when you are in Charge. I don't care what it is. You know, if you're the boss at work, if you're the bishop, if you're whatever when you're in charge. I mean, there. There are responsibilities that come with being in charge, and you don't want to burn the house down. And you see a lot of times, you see both sides. You see, you know, why maybe the church is acting this way or why members complain about that. Okay, you may understand both sides. So a lot of times he would, you know, he would push back gently with me. And, you know, well, maybe you haven't thought about this, maybe you haven't thought about that. So. But I was very active on New Order Mormon for, oh, I don't know, for probably a year or two before, you know, the summer of 2008. So he had been serving nearly six years. Summer of 2008, they knew because, you know, well, there was the recession. We had members moving out of the ward. You know, there was one year that there was a young couple that had put a new war directory together with actually family pictures. So you didn't have quite so many names on each page. You have three or four. I would go through that directory and, like, entire pages of members had disappeared. People had moved. The homes, especially in our ward, tend to be on the smaller side, like just a little over 2,000 square feet. And 50, 60 years ago, families with eight kids lived in those homes. But people expect more space now. And so, you know, they were moving to Sandy, they were moving to Bountiful. The other ward was also losing, you know, was losing members. And so, you know, in the bishop's meeting with the stake president, you know, started talking about the fact that the wards probably needed to be merged. So the two wards meeting in the. In that building, in the Yale building. So we knew that was coming. And so I knew the time was coming. He was going to be released. And I was sort of lost because I had gone through. I had gone through my depression, and hopefully I'm going to be able to read something, but I'd gone through my depression. And when I came out of it, which was about halfway through his service, I realized I didn't believe anymore. I came out without believing, and I was okay with it. I wasn't in great despair over not believing. I was okay.

John Dehlin [02:35:13] So what. Can you just tell us how you arrived at not believing all of a sudden?

Martine Smith [02:35:20] Well, like, how did yourself broke.

John Dehlin [02:35:22] Well, what. What broke your shelf? Like, were there some final.

Martine Smith [02:35:26] It was. No, I think. I'm not a Psychologist. So I can't explain it, but I think a lot of it had to do with the. With the depression. I just examined a lot of those things at the time. You know, I was chatting online with people and I just, you know, one by one, whether it was, you know, the big. For me was really the plan of salvation, which is really the biggie in the church. I mean, that's why we're here. You know, where did we come from? Why are we here? Where are we going? I mean, that's the whole point of the. It is the journey, you know, and everything else was, you know, was ancillary to that. You know, the polygamy issues, the leadership issues, the inconsistencies, the fact that God is so dang inefficient at spreading this gospel that is so important, and yet he's. I mean, that, like, that was the best plan he could come up with,

John Dehlin [02:36:23] that with billions of children on the earth, he's able to.

Martine Smith [02:36:26] He's able to get 1830, start sending missionaries. And it's just like hit and miss. You know, if you happen to be home and answer the door or not slam the door or. And. Yeah, well, anybody who hasn't heard, well, we'll just do their work in the millennium. It just. I just thought it was so. It suddenly the. The thing that sounded so beautiful when the missionary explained it to me in May and June of 1970 just. Just fell apart.

John Dehlin [02:36:55] What about eternal families? How did that. What. What made that fall apart for you? How did you deconstruct that in your mind by. By this point?

Martine Smith [02:37:04] Well, I think what, you know, what I said in the. In the previous episode, is that. How. What exactly does that look like? Why would we need to actually have some kind of an ordinance, for lack of a better word? Because that's what the church calls it. An ordinance to make sure that when we're on the other side, like, we recognize each other as family members because we're not going to be living together. We might not even be, you know, let's go with what I was originally taught. We're not going to be living on the same planet or in the same galaxy even. So why is there a need for us to say, oh, yeah, we, you know, we went to the temple and we had this thing done. And because of this thing, wherever we're going to be in the next life, we'll know we are actually family. I just don't see the need for that.

John Dehlin [02:38:04] And if you're sitting at the table with your parents, but then they're sitting with their parents, but then they're sitting with their parents. It's all one huge table. And then what does it even mean that you're really with your family?

Martine Smith [02:38:15] I mean, I know you know, and I've been mocked for that by friends. I know it's easy to say, well, we just don't understand. And it's not as simple as that. You know, our brains just cannot comprehend because we're thinking in earthly terms. Well, even if I want to think in heavenly terms, I just don't. I just don't see the need for the families to be linked to me. We're linked by genetics already, to start with, and we're linked by love. So I'm sorry they're spending so much

John Dehlin [02:38:47] money on temples, but then that's very personal for you because you had lost two daughters by that point. So what happened to your beliefs about being with your daughters in heaven at that point?

Martine Smith [02:38:59] My son and my daughter.

John Dehlin [02:38:59] Sorry, Son and daughter? Yeah.

Martine Smith [02:39:03] I. I don't know. But I don't believe I'm going to be with them, and I'm okay with that.

John Dehlin [02:39:11] So. So even back then, to this point in the story, you would let. You let go of that?

Martine Smith [02:39:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:39:19] What was that like?

Martine Smith [02:39:22] I was okay with it. My mother passed away three and a half years ago, and. I. I accepted the fact that I'm not going to see her again. I don't think I can do anything about it. You know, if. If that's not the case. If that's not the case, I still don't believe that. That I needed to have something done in the temple in order to know that that's my mother and I love her wherever I see her again, if I do.

John Dehlin [02:40:16] Yeah, that's. That's really tender stuff. Were you sharing this with Stuart at the time? He's bishop, or just released from the bishop. And you're saying, I don't believe we'll see our children again. And I don't believe that there's necessarily an afterlife, and I don't believe temple ordinances are necessary. Were you sharing all this with Stuart?

Martine Smith [02:40:36] I don't think so. I think it distilled slowly upon me.

John Dehlin [02:40:44] Yeah. So, Stuart, you didn't have an idea she was going through this at the time?

Stuart Smith [02:40:52] No, not entirely. I mean, I knew. Yeah, I knew that she was having questions and she was having doubts. You know, I didn't see how I was going to convince her. Oh, no, it's all true. But I knew that I wanted to sustain her, be with her go through it together with her.

John Dehlin [02:41:25] Were you alarmed at her loss of faith at

Stuart Smith [02:41:33] some point? Perhaps somewhat. You know, I mean, it was like, wow, this is kind of a turnaround. You know, this is. Where did this come from? This is sort of a little bit out of the blue. I thought I'd be the one, you know.

John Dehlin [02:41:50] Yeah.

Stuart Smith [02:41:51] Telling her this or, you know, if I was inclined to do that. But. So, yeah, it was, it was a little surprising. And I, you know, maybe I. And like she said, you know, I mean, The people I associated with, even in church leadership, other bishops, bishoprics, other stake presidency, they were all good men trying to do a job that they felt was important, and they really were concerned about what was in the best interest of their parishioners, so to speak. So even if I had problems with the church, with, you know, theology or scripture, or even the upper top echelon leadership, some of the things they had done or whatever, I felt like, at least at that level, most of the people were just serving out of the goodness of their heart. Mostly. They weren't looking for some grand reward in heaven or whatever. And so when she would criticize leaders and leadership, that was probably, that was probably the hardest for me to, to put up to feel because that's. I felt like she was not, you know, being fair minded.

John Dehlin [02:43:50] Having been a bishop, you had gotten to understand how terribly difficult it is to be a leader, not just in

Martine Smith [02:43:59] the church, but just the responsibility.

Stuart Smith [02:44:02] Right.

John Dehlin [02:44:03] Yeah. But Stuart, at that point, I, I know I keep coming back to this. I know this is a major theme of Mormon stories for like 18 years now. Like, I'm struck by how unimportant the quote that. And this isn't in a judgmental way, it's just in an observational way. I'm struck by how unimportant quote the truth was to you at that point in your life. In other words, like, there's a. There's a. I understand. It works for me. It has utility. It's a good place to raise a kid. I want to keep my marriage together. It's an okay place to serve. It's my culture, it's my tribe. I understand all that. I get it all. I did it too. But then there's the other angle, which is like, wait, but it's not true. It's not what it claims to be. It's. And these are strong words. There are some who say, but it's a fraud. Joseph committed fraud. If the Book of Mormon isn't what it claims to be, if the church Isn't the one and true church, if priesthood authority doesn't do what it claims to do, that matters. And a lot of people are being influenced to make really important decisions based on inadequate information and, or deception. And I guess I, I came to know you by this point and, and, and again, I've, I've lived some of this myself, but I was always struck by that not really seeming to matter to you that much. Yeah, well, how do you explain that? Well, to,

Stuart Smith [02:45:46] to quote Pilate, what is truth? In other words, What is absolute, rock solid, objective truth? Objective reality? You know, what is that? And what does that mean? And we're all living in some respect, we're all living in our own constructed universe of how we operate and what we feel is important. And for me, I felt that family, relationships, friendships, Helping other people, even if it was, even if it was false, it gave, it brought comfort to a lot of people. It helped them cope with this, the struggles of life. And so I would think, you know, there are worse things. There are worse things. So I guess that's what kept me going.

John Dehlin [02:47:20] And, and you know what, it's 20, 23 and I've been doing this 20 years. I agree with you. Loneliness, isolation, ostracization, lack of any identity, meaninglessness, total nihilism can be worse than believing something that isn't true.

Stuart Smith [02:47:47] Right.

Martine Smith [02:47:50] And you know, when I look around me, whether it's family members or friends or, you know, the church fills the needs of many people and that's good as long as it doesn't harm them. Eventually it quit working for me, but I realize it works and it's needed by a lot of people.

Stuart Smith [02:48:24] I remember many times as I would think about this through the years, one of the things I struggled with was of course, you know, there was a sort of gradually increasing discomfort in me with the, what I might call the unfulfilled promises of religion. And yet it was so pervasive in the human race. You know, why is that? Why is there such a compulsion for human beings to believe in some supernatural force or being or whatever that cares about them, that wants to comfort them? Why do we do that? Does that mean, and I would debate within my own mind, well, does that mean that we really did live in a pre existence in the presence of God? Did we become accustomed to that? And did the separation, is that need still there? Is that why we long for a reunion? We long for. Validation, I guess, as you know, why am I here? Is this all just random noise or what? So I think it's Important in that respect. And I would debate in my mind, well, is there a God? Is that why we believe there's a God? Because we had that experience before and we're very. The mists of the veil, so to speak. It's there, but we can't quite define it. And then recently I've come across some studies that have been done in neuroscience. In fact, there is actually a new discipline forming called neurotheology that is looking at the reasons why we have this tendency, maybe because of the way our brains are wired a certain way, so that when a human infant is born, a totally helpless human infant is born, that infant, that infant knows, recognizes and understands at some level that mother is there to care for it. And the survival of the species depends upon that mother infant bond forming. And we are perhaps pre wired, prenatally wired for that recognition and that expectation when we come into the world, quote, unquote, we expect as an infant, as a newborn, we expect something, someone to be there to take care of us. And we respond. We respond to our mother's voice. The baby recognizes a human face and it expects that its needs can be met. And those circuits are there throughout our life. They're still in our brain. And sometimes, perhaps later in life or even as we're maturing, you know, those circuits can get activated sometimes, and we transfer that expectation. Of another entity who's going to take care of us, who's there to comfort us. And maybe that's why there is this human compulsion to believe.

John Dehlin [02:54:04] Yeah.

Stuart Smith [02:54:06] So I've been trying to understand that, you know, for a long time and, and why. Why the, why it's so widespread, why, you know, religion and belief is.

John Dehlin [02:54:20] Yeah.

Stuart Smith [02:54:21] So inherent in the human condition.

John Dehlin [02:54:24] And then, Stuart, the two things for me that follow from that realization that just many people seem to do better when they believe is to what extent is it, if you, if you are one who actually doesn't believe and has the evidence that sort of shows that the beliefs aren't really valid? You know, to what extent is it an act of deception to create the appearance that you're a believer or to support the institution that's asserting these truth claims, when in reality, you know, it's, you know, it's probably not true. That's. There's the question of deception and, and trying to. And justifying that. And I'm not saying that in a condemnatory way at all. I'm just saying you've already said it. There's, there's this weighing that happens of what's true. But when you say true, you mean what's most valuable? I think so. For you, truth is value. What's going to lead to the most amount of health, the most amount of well being, the most amount of joy? You put a, you put an emphasis on that over what's going to lead to the most accurate understanding of how the world really operates and works. Right. And you're saying for you, what's true or, or most valuable is human joy and well being over, over truth claims. And so you have to, you have to then ask to what extent is there an ethical question about honesty or deception? And then there's the question that you brought up, Martine, is what about the people that are hurt? Are the, are, is the damage that's caused by the weaknesses of the institution? Is that acceptable loss for the good that's done? It's almost a utilitarian argument. It's like, does all the good that's, that's done individually and community wise outweigh the deaths and the depression and the, you know, family destruction that happens in the lives of those for whom it doesn't work out quite so well? Isn't, isn't that kind of the question? Aren't those kind of two of the big questions?

Stuart Smith [02:56:52] And I think we wrestle with that throughout our lives and we have may come to different conclusions depending on where we are, who we are and what's going on in our lives.

John Dehlin [02:57:04] Yeah.

Stuart Smith [02:57:05] And it can change. It obviously changes for some people as they progress or as they live their lives.

John Dehlin [02:57:15] Yeah. Well, I appreciate you being willing to talk about it directly because there's a lot of people that are going to do this thing, the pimo, the physically and mentally out, the progressive liberal Mormon, or just fake like they're an orthodox Mormon when really they're not. But they don't want to talk about it, they don't want to admit it, and they certainly don't want to talk about it because it's awkward, it's uncomfortable.

Stuart Smith [02:57:39] Right, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:57:40] Yeah. So hats off to you for being willing to talk about it.

Martine Smith [02:57:45] Well, this may shed a little light, actually, in terms of where we were and how much we shared with each other. But probably halfway through his term as bishop, so about three years in, I was sitting, you know, as a member of the bishopric, they get to bear their testimony. Every three months they take their turn. And I don't know why it took me that long to figure it out. I was sitting in testimony meeting, listening to Stuart bear his testimony, when I realized that not once had I heard him Say, I know this church is true. I know the Book of Mormon is the word of God. I know Joseph Smith was a prophet, and I support president. Whoever it was, which means it wasn't something he'd ever, you know, there was. Had never been a need to express to me, I guess, what he believed and what he didn't, but. But then I really paid attention after that, you know, every three months. And. Yep, he never says those things. He talks about the community, about the, you know, how good the people are and how helpful they are and how nice it is to live in this. You know, in this community where people

Stuart Smith [02:59:05] care about each other.

Martine Smith [02:59:06] Where people care about each other. But not once while he was bishop did he ever bear testimony to something he did not believe. And I don't know how many ward members noticed that, if any.

John Dehlin [02:59:20] So you can. There's a way to do that ethically without being totally dishonest. You just speak in code. Right. Right.

Stuart Smith [02:59:29] I don't know if I always consciously did that, but, yeah, I mean. And I would say the same thing is true for my. My private discussions with members. I don't ever recall saying, well, I know the church is true, and if you'll just follow the teachings of the church, everything will be fine. I've never said that.

John Dehlin [02:59:54] Yeah. Yeah. And I'm guessing if you had LGBTQ ward members or, you know, married adults who had some sort of lob chassis infraction or youth who had live chastity infractions, I'm guessing you were a better bishop to have than your leaders in Baton Rouge.

Stuart Smith [03:00:22] Well, I like to think so, but

Martine Smith [03:00:24] never held a court in six years.

John Dehlin [03:00:28] That's a huge deal. And that was intentional on your part?

Martine Smith [03:00:34] Yeah, yeah. Those are things we talked about, you know, after he was released, but, yeah, never held a court, so. And actually, even when he was on the high council, he never. There never was a court held in our state during that time, so he didn't.

Stuart Smith [03:00:55] I was on one. I was serving as state clerk in Baton Rouge for a short period of time.

Martine Smith [03:01:01] A few months. Eight months.

Stuart Smith [03:01:03] And there was a stake high council court, and the clerk doesn't sit on the high council, but supposed to be there to record, make, take notes, whatever, and I was thoroughly, thoroughly disgusted by what happened. You know, it was a. It was a. You know, it was a. It was a case of marital indiscretion kind of thing, and I just thought it was, you know, the confidentiality. You're. You're. Who's ever. Whoever you're dealing with, whether they're present or whether they're not. You know, all of this is exposed to a group of, well, 15 men, 12 high counselors and stake presidency, and actually 16 if you count the board. The state clerk is sitting there taking notes. Taking notes. And you know, theoretically six of the high councilors are supposed to speak in favor of the accused, you know, on this, six in favor of the church defending the church. It doesn't work that way. It was just a kangaroo court.

John Dehlin [03:02:36] What harm was done, do you think?

Stuart Smith [03:02:42] Well, I think the people involved, I don't think they ever, you know, came back to church. I mean, I haven't followed them their whole lives.

John Dehlin [03:03:00] But how do you think they felt from the experience?

Stuart Smith [03:03:03] Yeah, I just think it was a, it was not an uplifting experience for me and I vowed never to participate in one again.

Martine Smith [03:03:18] So he sure wasn't going to call one.

John Dehlin [03:03:21] Hold them. Yeah. Yeah.

Martine Smith [03:03:24] There are other ways.

John Dehlin [03:03:25] Yeah. Well, thanks, Stuart, for sharing those experiences. Yeah. I hope there's more Mormon bishops like you. I know there are more and more atheists, completely non believing Mormon bishops that are leading wards and even stakes take presidents because the church is running out of faithful leadership, frankly, and it wants to call leaders that can represent their membership. And there's more and more physically and mentally out Mormons every year. So we're moving into this era of the nuanced Mormon leadership, at least on the lower levels. I don't know that that's reached the general authorities yet.

Martine Smith [03:04:08] Right.

Stuart Smith [03:04:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:04:10] So, thanks, Stuart.

Martine Smith [03:04:11] Be a while.

Mutual Faith Journey After 2008 and Navigating the Stake

John Dehlin [03:04:13] Well, so where, where does that take your mutual faith journey? You know, there's a lot of things that have happened from 2008 on. There's, you know, all the excommunications that happened in 14 and 15. There's the, the, the church's exclusion policy at the end of 2015 and you know, and there's the rise of other podcasts and voices like Bill Real and RFM that I don't know are meaningful to you.

Martine Smith [03:04:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:04:46] What do you want to say about kind of your post bishop years in your family?

Martine Smith [03:04:52] Well, okay. I'm going to go back a little bit to when he's still bishop because there's something I do want to read because that was another big moment for me, a big turning point. It's about six months before Stuart's release. My temple recommend is expiring and as a bishop's wife, I have to have a current temple recommend. But I know that I can't answer most of the belief questions that come at the front of the interview. And so I have an appointment with my husband for my temple recommend. And I sit down. And so this is 2008. So he's been Bishop almost like five and a half years. And he asks the first question, which I believe is, do you believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in his Son, Jesus Christ? Is that how it goes?

Stuart Smith [03:05:44] I think so.

Martine Smith [03:05:45] And I start bawling, and he looks at me and he says, I had no idea it was this bad. And then. I don't want to put words in your mouth. You want to say, I don't remember.

Stuart Smith [03:06:08] Go ahead.

Martine Smith [03:06:09] Okay. Because, you know, I can't remember if the next question is on, you know, do you believe in the restored church? You know, and you sustain the apostles? But I think it's probably the restored church. And I'm still crying at that point. And he asks me, do you hope it's true? And I can't quite answer. And he says, because that's where I am. And that was a revelation to me that. Even though I had noticed he never bore his testimony of the church's truth claims, that was still a revelation. To have him say, I just hope it's true. I mean, even God and Jesus Christ, he was hoping that was true.

John Dehlin [03:06:58] So

Martine Smith [03:07:01] when also, if you're the bishop or the bishop's wife, at least that was the case in 2008, when you are interviewed at the stake level, you have to be interviewed by the stake president. So for the next week, it's just like, trepidation for me because I think, okay, I passed with him, just barely, but I've got to be interviewed by the stake president. So I go to the stake center the next week, and I'm in the waiting room, and I'm just really nervous. And there's a ward member, one of my ward members. She's a woman in her 30s, but she's getting married in a couple of weeks. And so we're talking, and the stake president comes out of his office, and he, you know, takes a look at the room and see how many people are left. And of course, a temple recommend interview before a wedding is a longer interview. And so he scans the room, and the. His first counselor has just walked out also of. Of wherever he was interviewing from. And the stake president says, oh, I need to interview Sister so and so before her wedding. So he looks at his counselor and he says, you know, president so and so, would you mind taking Sister Smith? So I'm not going to be interviewed by the stake president. And as we walk into the room, and I hand over my temple recommend that Stuart has signed a week before. The kind member of the Stake Presidency says, oh, I see, you just, you just met with your husband a week ago with that. Did he ask you all the questions? I say, yes. He said, oh, okay, and he signed it. And I didn't have to go through the questions with the Stake Presidency. So that was my last temple recommend. I got out of there. So fast forward two years later, my temple recommends expiring. We haven't been to the temple except to, you know, to weddings. To some weddings. And Stuart sometimes would ask me questions after an endowment session. And one thing he had asked me several years before is, you know, why do you think they say, with the law of chastity legally and lawfully wedded. So I'm sitting in the back. This is the Salt Lake Temple. I'm sitting in the back of the of the world room and letting my thoughts just carry me.

Stuart Smith [03:09:34] And

Martine Smith [03:09:37] there, hold on. We are at a point where they're going to present the law of chastity, and we've been held up to the room we're in because the previous session is slow. And so I'm sitting there where I have some time to reflect. They haven't quite decided. And then they say, we're going to go forward here. So as I'm sitting, I'm listening, and I don't know how kosher it is just to quote from the temple, from the endowment. John.

John Dehlin [03:10:10] Yeah, go for it. But now just warn people, some people may find this offensive and if so, turn it off or fast forward.

Martine Smith [03:10:17] Yeah. So I'm going to be quoting actually from an old version of the law of chastity. And. Well, let me set this up. So I was in. We were in doubt before 1990. So before the changes and, you know, the big changes. People always talk about the big changes, but there were tiny changes that took place in 1990. And one of them was that the way the law of chastity used to be administered was that the women stood first and they read them the law of chastity. And I won't do that right now. I think I could still remember it word for word. And then the men did, and it was the exact same wording, except for husband or wife, of course, but it was the exact same wording. So it seemed like to be wasting a few seconds to have them stand separately, but I never really gave it any thoughts. And this is 2010, 20 years later, and I haven't given any thought since then. But in 1990, they changed it so that men and women stood at the same time. And the verbiage was the same, except that they said husband or wife at the same time. So it saved a few seconds. And for some reason, I'm sitting there listening to that, and that's what we're doing. And I think back about how it used to be men and women separately that I witnessed for seven years, I guess six years. And suddenly it dawns on me why women and men used to stand separately. Suddenly, I can see it. That's because the women would stand and they would covenant to the law of chastity to live the law of chastity with their husband while the men then stood. And the language for them used to be with your wife or wives. So the law of chastity, we're told, you know, I was always told that men and women are equal in the temple. We make the exact same covenants. We know that's not true, but at the time, I think I actually probably thought it was. I hadn't noticed some of the differences, but I realized that, no, the law of chastity for women is actually to be chaste with their husband. The law of chastity for men had this big caveat that they could have as many wives as they wanted at the same time. So we get, you know, we go through. We finish. We go through the veil. I'm waiting for him. I am just chomping at the bit in the celestial room, for one thing. I'm angry because I know. I know that's what it was. And I can't wait to go home and Google it, because I know I'm going to find it. So we're getting out of the parking garage, and I tell Stuart why I'm so upset, because I told him, I said, we got to get out of here and I'm never coming back. So I go home and I Google it and I find it. And indeed, that's what it used to say. Law of chastity for men. You, and each of you do covenant and promise that you will not have sexual intercourse with any of the opposite sex except your lawful wife or wives who are given you by the holy priesthood, all bow your head and say yes. And in my mind, I could see those first wives who often were present once there was a temple, who often were present as their husbands were sealed to other women one at a time or whatever, but for them to have to bow their head and say yes to a law of chastity that they were going to Obey it with their husband, while their husbands had this big caveat that there was no limit. It wasn't really a law of chastity. So I was. I was done with the temple that day.

John Dehlin [03:14:40] Because why you concluded what?

Martine Smith [03:14:42] Because then I started seeing polygamy everywhere in the. In the endowment, and we can't go through it. And, you know, and it is still there when women now covenant not to obey their husband. But, you know, whatever it is, to the new and everlasting covenant. And I've heard members say, oh, well, that's just the gospel. It just means in the gospel. No, the new and everlasting covenant of marriage, which is how it's worded Also in section 131, section that precedes 132 obviously, is it's a new and everlasting covenant of marriage. And the new and everlasting covenant of marriage is a plurality of wives. That's what still young brides are agreeing to, that they will allow their husbands to have multiple wives in the next life. Now, I don't believe in the next life. So why does it bother me? It bothers me that innocent, young, innocent women don't really know what they're agreeing to.

Temple Covenants, Polygamy, and Deciding to Leave

John Dehlin [03:15:50] Yeah.

Martine Smith [03:15:50] And it is, you know, I've reread, because you can find it online. You know, I've reread, I don't know, the wording of the ceiling as it is now, because nobody has released it. But I certainly studied word by word, the ceiling as it was before, what, 2019, when they changed it. And it really. That part hasn't changed. It is still. Polygamy is the undercurrent that runs through the endowment. To me, the endowment was created to justify polygamy. That was the vehicle that allowed Joseph and even and Brigham later to. To get the women and the men to get. But to get the women to accept that that was. That was the high law.

John Dehlin [03:16:48] And all that secrecy Masonic stuff were ways to kind of threaten and coerce people into secrecy.

Stuart Smith [03:16:55] Right.

Martine Smith [03:16:56] And it works.

John Dehlin [03:16:57] Yeah. Yeah. And this is something. On the one hand, the modern Mormon Church wants to communicate to the world and even to the membership on a level, the polygamy is behind us. It's in the past. It's a fleck of history. We're past it. We're not a polygamous church anymore. That's those flds, bad people. That's kind of out of one side of the Mormon Church's mouth. That's what they want to communicate. On the other side of their mouth, doctrine and Covenants 132 is still in the canon. You know, Mormon men are still allowed to get sealed to multiple women, whereas women are not allowed to get sealed to multiple men. You know, the, you know, Russell and Nelson and down H. Oaks are currently sealed to multiple women and, and totally

Martine Smith [03:17:51] expect to be living with, with both of them.

John Dehlin [03:17:56] Yeah. And the endowment continues to be, you know, polygamous at its foundation. It is, yeah. So we're still very much a polygamous church. Yeah.

Martine Smith [03:18:07] Yeah. And it's really disturbing to think that they, those men believe that so strongly that not only did they remarry, which is fine, you don't want to be alone, that they remarry, but that they married in the temple because they really do believe in polygamy and they. The afterlife. And if they do believe in it for themselves, then they have to be believing in it for everybody else too. They have to be believing that this will be the order of heaven.

John Dehlin [03:18:37] Yeah. Yeah. And none of, none of those teachings have been denounced.

Martine Smith [03:18:42] Right.

John Dehlin [03:18:43] So like even the, the priesthood ban and the priesthood and temple ban on black people, the church has stopped short of. Of condemning, you know, it as a past doctrinal teaching. It's just kind of like said, well, these are, these were folk teachings. These were policies, you know, that the church hasn't even gone as far as to, you know, demote past doctrinal teachings about polygamy as folklore or church policy. They've just.

Martine Smith [03:19:18] Right.

John Dehlin [03:19:18] No, they've just left them.

Martine Smith [03:19:20] I mean, the church, you know, is full of people who wouldn't be here like, like the man I'm married to here, who wouldn't be here if it weren't for polygamy. They'd be here in a different form or whatever. That's, that's still very much, you know, when you go, obviously outside of the US that's not the case. You know, you go to Belgium, nobody, nobody has polygamy in their, in their family history. But you know, in the U. S. Church, that's still, that's still very much the case.

John Dehlin [03:19:57] Yeah.

Martine Smith [03:19:58] And you know, most, most people who came out of. Who came out of polygamy don't go around apologizing for it, saying, I wish I wasn't born, you know, because of, of how it happened, because I wouldn't be here if my great grandfather hadn't married multiple wives.

Stuart Smith [03:20:18] Yeah.

Martine Smith [03:20:19] So. So a couple of months, okay, Then, then you'll. I'll give you free reign after that. A couple of months after that, after our last time in the temple. And I had told Stuart, he knew I wasn't going to get another recommend. I said, do you want to go to the temple one last time together? So. So that was our last time was our. My little house of horrors a couple months after that. So this came. The idea for this came from one of our friends on Open Mormon, actually, who had. And we can mention her first name is Heather, who had. Who had borne her testimony a few months earlier in her ward. And she called it, I think, an honest testimony. And we came to. To call it a Heather testimony. But it was the month of the. Was the month of May and it was. It was fast and testimony meeting. And so it would be the 40th anniversary that Sunday of the day that my sister and I met the missionaries. And so I felt the occasion was appropriate for me to stand and say a few things to my wardrobe. I. I told. I warned Stuart I was going to do it that morning. And he looked at me with panic in his eyes about what I was going to do. And I said, no, it'll be okay. It'll be all right. So. So if it's okay, John, I'm going to read some of. Some of this. So I woke up really early that morning and I realized, okay, this is the day I'm going to do it. So I'm going to stand and tell my ward, my. My story of the last few years.

John Dehlin [03:22:04] You're going to bear an authentic non testimony.

Martine Smith [03:22:07] An authentic non testimony. So after that, I went home and I typed up what I had thought and done. So thoughts fell into my place. And by the time Stuart and I left for church at 11, I told them I would probably stand up today. He looked at me, stunned, but I assured him I wouldn't embarrass him. I got up and first said how much I love the ward, how much I love my ward. That's true. I really do. There was speculation for years prior to the ward merger, so the wards had merged two years earlier when Stuart was released, that it wouldn't work because of the difference in demographics. The other ward was much wealthier. But I have made new friends and I love them. Then I said that tomorrow, May 3, marks an important anniversary in my life. It was 40 years ago tomorrow that my sister and I met the missionaries in a city square in my hometown of Liege, Belgium. That meeting changed our lives forever, and I'm grateful for that. This is also another anniversary for me. 10 years ago this spring, I began to sink into deep clinical depression, which lasted five years. It was during that time that Stuart was called as bishop, a time that was one of the two or three worst periods in my life. And that's including the death of our children. The first three years he was bishop are kind of a blur. I would drag myself to church often late, and I would really worry him, which was totally unlike me. I tended to be early for church before I could see the relief in Stuart's face when I came in. But I was in agony much of the time I was there. I didn't dwell too much on the depression other than to say that it was real. Then I said that when I emerged from my depression, I was a different person in several ways. One was that I realized I could no longer say that I knew some of the things I used to to think I knew before and that I might never again stand in that spot on the stand and say, I know this or I know that that. Another self discovery that emerged out of that experience was that I was okay not knowing that I was comfortable with where I was and happier than I'd been in a long time. I don't fret or stress about what I don't know. I said there was little I could profess to know today. But two things I did know was that I didn't need to know in order to love and I didn't need to know in order to serve. My faith journey continues. All faith journeys are personal and individual and that I respected that. I said I was grateful because of the church. I met the most wonderful husband, the father of my three children. I closed by saying this is a good place to be and good things happen here. Of this I bear witness. And when I found this a few weeks ago when we were prepping, I thought I'd lost that document. And the way I closed that, I said it was a good place to be. It was a good place to be until it wasn't anymore. And yes, I could live with a cognitive dissonance. And I did for 30 years. And it became so painful. First I cut out Relief Society and then I cut out Sunday School, even with great teachers. And then one day trying. I don't have a date for it, but I know it was in December, one year. Trying to reconcile all of these contradictory thoughts in my head, I stopped and asked myself, what if it isn't true, which I've heard a number of people say at this microphone. I wasn't the first one to ask that question of myself and I won't be the last. And as soon as I said that as soon as I was willing to entertain the thought that I didn't have to find some truth somewhere to keep me going, but that maybe it just wasn't, all the tension left my body, all of the anxiety left my body. And I thought, okay, I'm okay with that. And at that point I was okay to keep going. And when we say true, you know, we're talking about the church's truth claims. Joseph was a prophet. He saw God and his son. He translated the Book of Mormon from the plates. The Mormon Church is the only one that has God's authority. So when I asked myself, what if it isn't true? That's what I meant. That's what I'd been taught. Some of it I said, I cobbled over the years. I took out some pieces, but what if I just jettisoned the whole thing and said, okay, it isn't, it didn't happen. And that took all of that anxiety away. Now, I didn't have to try to make it fit, I didn't have to try to twist myself into a pretzel anymore to make it work. And I'm not sure exactly of the year, but obviously it happened before this. And then I stayed for another 10 years after he was released, because about six months after he was released, I got a call from a member of the bishopric and they called me to be sacrament meeting courser. And I'm not a musician. I don't play any instruments, I don't sight read music. But apparently I have a gift. They didn't know that yet at that point, but I've always loved the hymns and I always loved church music. And as I developed into, especially when I became award music chair too, and I could combine the two, Sunday after Sunday, people came and told me that I chose just the right hymns. I saw themes where other people didn't see themes. And I think I tried to build. I mean, I wasn't in control of the talks, but I tried to build what was more of a worship meeting, a worship service rather than sacrament meeting. And you know, I resigned. I mean, I. I told them they absolutely had to release me. It was the third time I was, I was telling them this was in 2018. And so it's been four and a half years. And I had a ward member just a few weeks ago say, I just wish you were still doing the music. And I've had more than once saying, you just, you did music in the word like nobody else has done it. I don't know. It's a. It's a feeling I had. I. Even when I didn't believe anymore, even when I didn't believe in God anymore, I just. I have a sense of what is needed for people to feel like they're worshiping. If they choose to believe, that's okay. I can. I can actually help them do that. I can help elevate them during a sacrament meeting. Yeah, so I did that for nearly 10 years.

John Dehlin [03:30:08] What made you stop?

Martine Smith [03:30:12] A year before, I had asked the bishopric for the second time to release me. And I had told them, and I had told the bishop in a text. I said, there are so many hymns that I can't put on the program anymore. I cannot, you know, I would. I focused a lot on the worship hymns. There's a section in the. In the hymn book in the 60s 70s numbers that are more Christian, more just more worshipful. They're not Restoration, they're not Joseph Smith, they're. They're not military militant type hymns. And so I was focusing a lot on that. I just said, you know, there's just more and more hymns I can't put on the program, which I know members would love to sing. I always scheduled praise to the man when I was out of town. And it so happened with my job, I had a conference out of town at the end of June every year. So I had a sub who was happy, you know, and the ward was happy to sing praise to the man around June 27, you know, but I didn't have to do it. I did do it. When once it was really hard. Stewart's counselor, the one we were discussing before his son was coming home from his mission. And I always asked the missionaries if they had one hymn that they, you know, they wanted sung at their farewell or their homecoming. And so the. I got word that this. This returning missionary wanted praise to the man. And I thought, I can't lead that. What am I going to do? I could get a sub, but that's sort of wimping out. And I don't want to skip the meeting because this. The father had served Stuart as a counselor for the entire length of his term, six years, faithfully. And I believe in loyalty very strongly. And I felt I needed to be loyal to this man who had, you know, who had served the ward. And I needed to be there to lead the hymn. So I did. I stood there that morning. I was still struggling before we went to church, and I stood there and waved my arm for four verses of praise to the man without once opening my mouth. That was. I don't think anybody really noticed, but that was. That was my way of dealing with it. So. Yeah, so when I told them, you know, the number of hymns that I'm comfortable singing just keeps shrinking, the bishop reported to me that his counselors wept, and they said, that's fine. We'll just sing the hymns that Martine is comfortable singing. But then a year later, it just. It was impossible. I had. By then, I had an assistant, and I was trying to get her to do it at least two Sundays a month, because I just sitting through sacrament meeting was just too painful. You know, you can try to block everything out except when you have to stand up and lead the music, but it just became unbearable to hear things that not only. Yeah. That I didn't believe.

Stuart Smith [03:33:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:33:29] Yeah. And, Stuart, are you remaining active this whole time and feeling good about it, or how's your participation, you know, going?

Final Sundays, Stopping Attendance, and Life After Mormonism

Stuart Smith [03:33:43] Well, up to that point, I was. I would continue to go to church. I still enjoyed meeting people.

Martine Smith [03:33:49] And he was sitting on the stand

Stuart Smith [03:33:51] with me, seeing the members. Yeah, I would sit on stand with her and look over the congregation and think about people, what they had been through and how their lives had changed, hopefully for the better.

Martine Smith [03:34:12] Yeah, he enjoyed sitting there without responsibility, he told me, because, you know, he'd sat there six years as a bishop, you know, where I'm sure he worried about, you know, he knew what all the problems were. So when he started sitting with me on the stand, he said, this is sort of nice. You know, I can look at everyone and I, you know, I can. You wonder. I mean, you do. It's interesting sitting in the stand because you, you know, you notice the people who are missing. You notice, you know, they're missing for more than a week at a time. You notice the people who may be sad and crying and, you know, you can reach out to people because you. You see their faces rather than just sitting in the congregation. So, you know, I think you notice more things.

John Dehlin [03:35:05] So have you guys stopped attending? Kind of completely.

Martine Smith [03:35:11] For me, it was. It was when I was released. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:35:15] So four or five years ago.

Martine Smith [03:35:16] Yeah. So four, four and a half years ago. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:35:19] Stuart.

Stuart Smith [03:35:20] Well, so covet kind of got me out of the habit.

John Dehlin [03:35:24] Yeah, I think it did that for a lot of people.

Stuart Smith [03:35:28] And I felt like I didn't want to be going to church without her. I didn't want to be. I felt that it would be something that would pull us apart more than it would strengthen us if I went alone.

Martine Smith [03:35:49] So, I mean, you continue to go until Covid and He only went, same as me, he only went to sacrament meeting the last few years anyway. But you know, I would walk up at the end of, at the end of sacrament meeting, for example, I'd still walk up and you know, to sort of like go pick him up and just go into the foyer and say hi to people. But, you know, it was obvious I wasn't coming anymore. And, you know, we still have friends. Like, you know, we still see friends, we can visit friends. You know, it's funny, the Mormon world, it seems that, you know, if you don't go to church anymore, it's like you died, you know, And I mean, especially in Utah where we're all living within a few blocks of each other, you know, you can still run into each other and you can easily visit each other in each other's homes, which we do a little bit of. We should do a little bit more. But no, haven't had any questions. You know, our best friends are still our best friends in the ward. And you know, we've. With COVID of course, you know, like everybody else, we didn't, we didn't visit in person for a long time, but we have several times recently and you know, it's like old times. We still talk about ward members anyway because, you know, I, I haven't gotten the ward bulletin in a long time. Before, long before I just decided I, I was happier if I didn't have any communication from the church too. So. But that doesn't mean I don't worry about people or I don't care about board members, you know, especially the elderly. We went to visit one of our elderly friends a few months ago, but I certainly don't miss being there on Sunday.

John Dehlin [03:37:43] Yeah. So I guess I want to say, how's life after leaving the church? And I'm specifically mindful of the fact that you still have a son and a daughter in law and grandkids who are believing. So number one, do you feel like you're happier and healthier out of the church than in. And then two, how do you navigate being parents and grandparents to believing kid and grandkids

Martine Smith [03:38:14] happier? Yes, in, in many ways, because I don't, I'm not dealing with the cognitive dissonance, which I don't think is necessarily a higher way of living, can be pretty frustrating. The thing is, we live in Utah, we live in Salt Lake City and Mormonism is fascinating. It's just fascinating. It's history. So personally, and even Stuart too, I'm still very involved in reading, listening, writing about church Issues, doctrinal issues, historical issues, discussing attending conferences and things like that. I don't think that will ever go away because to me it's just so fascinating. Navigating believing family members the most important people in my life are, you know, my, my son, my daughter in law and our granddaughters and they are raising their daughters in the church. And you know what we see in the, in different Facebook groups and on Reddit or ex Mormon Reddit, you know, people who've left, usually it's a younger couple who leaves, you know, they have several children or whatever and, and they got very upset because they're believing parents are trying to teach the children behind their back and we are in the, the opposite situation. And one time our granddaughters are getting older, the youngest is 10. So there was one time several years ago where I let something slip that sort of gave a, although, what would you call it? That just gave my oldest granddaughter maybe something to think about, about how I saw something in the church, a practice, let's say in the church. So of course she told her parents and her parents were not happy with me and I have not said a word since. We are interested in their, in their journey in the church. You know, I've sown baptismal dresses, we've participated in the baptisms, I've led the music at baptism. Stuart has given talks. We attend church with them when we visit them. They live out of state. We, you know, we attend sacrament meeting with them and ask, you know, inquire about the, their callings. We don't talk doctrine and history because that can get contentious. But we can certainly talk about their, you know, their day to day life. They're very, very engaged in their, in their ward and they have a great support group just like we did in Louisiana. They have, you know, they have two other families that they're very close to, kids the same age and all of that. So their church community is important to them and it's, and we, you know, we support that. Not that it's any of our business in a way it isn't, but you know, it's what you learn when your kids get married and you can't hold them. And I don't think you'll be able to hold them in the celestial kingdom either, you know, make their lives and make their choices.

John Dehlin [03:41:56] So how about you Stuart? Happier and healthier. Sad. Missing it. Where are you?

Stuart Smith [03:42:08] Yeah, in some ways it's, it's easier not to be there, I suppose. Certainly gives us more time to explore other avenues that we are interested in. But for me, you know, it's, it's my, it's my tribe, it's my heritage, it's in my DNA. Sixth generation. That's a lot. So, you know, I consider myself, I think I may have said this, a secular Mormon. I'll always be a Mormon, but I consider myself. As one who's non practicing. And that doesn't mean that I don't love and support family members and friends who are still members and practicing, because I do. And as far as our grandchildren are concerned, the parents, it's their right to raise their children the best way they see fit. And as far as I'm concerned, I'll do everything I can to support that.

Reflections on the Afterlife, Regrets, and Gratitude

John Dehlin [03:43:47] Have you come down with the position on whether or not you'll see loved ones in the afterlife?

Stuart Smith [03:44:04] You know, I think that's unknowable, frankly. I don't have a position necessarily. I really, I don't ex, I don't, I don't see a great deal of evidence that that will be the case. But who am I to say, you know, what is the truth?

John Dehlin [03:44:29] Yeah, but you're not like clinging to that hope. It's not like an important part of your identity and worldview. Sounds like.

Stuart Smith [03:44:42] Not at this point. I mean, it will be, I suppose if it happens, it happens. It'll be a bonus, but it's not. Life has meaning with or without an afterlife. And. That's the important thing.

John Dehlin [03:45:05] Yeah, that is the important thing.

Martine Smith [03:45:07] I think it's about making the best of what we have here rather than postponing for something we have. No way, as Stuart just say, of knowing if it will, it will happen. That doesn't mean eat, drink and be merry, but that means being a good person. And as you know, so many members, and that's sort of scary, I wonder if they really would do that. So many members seem to think that if you no longer believe in God then you're just going to go out there and commit all sorts of crimes. But I can't even follow that line of thought because long before I met Mormon missionaries, my mother taught me to live honestly.

John Dehlin [03:45:59] Yeah. So I guess if we loop back to part one of your four part interview. You've come a long way since that teenage girl in Belgium who met those Mormon missionaries. And I'm wondering, let's just give you three choices, like A, it's been a wonderful life. I'm so glad I joined the church. What a wonderful, amazing adventure. B, it's mixed. There's been some good things and some Bad things. So I'm neutral. I would have been just as happy or sad staying in Belgium and being raised there as joining Mormonism, but it's a wash. Or C. I really regret ever joining the church. Where do you come down?

Martine Smith [03:46:43] I would probably choose B. And some of it I don't know if it's my age. And my mother's death impacted me very deeply. I mean we left my sister and I both left my, you know, our mother alone in Belgium. I, even though I tried to visit as often as I could. I mean my, my mother was to me was an extraordinary woman. She would never have been famous or anything like that, but she devoted her life to us and even though the church took us away, she loved the church and she just felt she had let us come to the United States and to Utah specifically for a better life. And the better life included living in the church. So as I'm getting older, I'm getting more drawn to Belgium than I ever was like even a few years ago, even before she died. For some reason now I keep wanting to go even though she's gone. So it's probably more mixed now. Yes, I'm grateful that I think I've had a better life than I would have had had I stayed in Belgium. I think, you know, I've had advantages here than I, that I wouldn't have had there. Do I wish that I had never believed what I believed for so long? I guess it's a question I haven't really asked myself, You know, in light of our situation and our children, certainly the church's teachings on the plan of salvation and that, you know, the Mormon Church, in the Mormon Church there was an answer for everything. Until you realize there really isn't an answer for everything. If you ask all the questions, in order to get an answer to everything, you have to ask very specific questions that are like pre programmed in the discussions. So I'm probably just rambling at this point. I'm glad that I got to where I am. I'm glad that I asked myself the questions that I did that led me to answers that satisfy me and brought me peace with regard to my station in life currently. And I believe my whatever happens after death, which I think is nothing but like Stuart said, maybe we'll be surprised.

John Dehlin [03:49:39] How about you, Stuart? Regrets or no regrets?

Stuart Smith [03:49:43] No, I don't think so. I don't care. Think any deep regrets? You always can look back and wish you'd done some things differently. But like I said, it's in my DNA. I can't run away from it in that sense. And I don't know that I want to. I mean, My ancestors were good people. They were sturdy New England pioneers, they were Revolutionary War veterans. You know, they, they did a lot of things. And even though I'm not a direct descendant of Joseph, you know, he's had a huge impact on. American history himself and in the lives of many people, I suppose, even today. But, you know, it is what it is. I just can't believe wholeheartedly. There's a lot of evidence for the truthfulness of it.

Martine Smith [03:51:10] And, you know, as you know, you can put a dozen people and more in front of the same information and their background and their genetic makeup and all sorts of things will influence. And their needs, their relationships will influence the way they react to a particular situation. Yeah, you know, we don't all handle. We can. I think we talked about that maybe in the second episode. But you know, as parents, we went through the same experience with our children, but we handled grief differently. And, you know, we need to give people who, who either. It comes naturally to them, you know, making the church works. They don't even have to make it work. It just comes naturally. And I think it did for me. Not. I think. I know it did for me for a number of years. You know, for a number of years it was, it was a good fit. Well, some parts of it, you know, and then there were the children. But, you know, the day to day stuff outside of the children was. It suited my life pretty well. And you know, we're surrounded with people who feel that way and we love them and we want to maintain our relationships with them if they're willing. And so far, everybody seems willing. I think it's become sort of obvious, even with the extended family that. Well, it's been obvious with me for a while because we have a 4th of July party and I'm always in a sleeveless something because it's too dang hot to be covering up. But, you know, I think it's sort of become more obvious to extended family that we're not engaged like we used to be, but nobody has turned their back on us. They're still just as loving and friendly as they've ever been.

John Dehlin [03:53:15] So. So you've never sat down your son and said, hey, we don't believe anymore. We're done with this. Never really had that conversation.

Martine Smith [03:53:27] I mean, over the years, like, you know, you brought up those, you know, the, the ordained women movement and you know, the, the various, various events, excommunication. I Mean, he's familiar with you and your podcast. You know, I would bring those things up, like, with ordained women, with the abuse, you know, the uncovered abuse in the church, and especially the way the church has a way of trying to cover it up to protect its reputation. I used to bring those things up quite a bit. I'm going to say more than. Probably more than 10 years ago, you know, when we visit with them, I would bring up, you know, this happened, that happened. We got into some more heated discussions, and there was one time in their kitchen where I was asked, well, you know, what about God and what about Christ? And I had this long pause because by that time I knew that I didn't really know. I didn't really. So the best I could do was say, you know, I. I don't know, but I'm not really there anymore. So, you know, they've had a pretty good inkling. But we stopped and some of it was our son. He actually told me that last summer, and it was a good decision on his part. He said, you know, I quit engaging with you about those things. Other than the superficial stuff like what calling do you have now? And things like that. I quit engaging with you because I didn't want us to fight. So. And I think especially since COVID they're aware that we don't attend anymore.

John Dehlin [03:55:19] But. No, you've never had that explicit conversation. Sounds like.

Martine Smith [03:55:22] Yeah, no, not really.

John Dehlin [03:55:24] Yeah. Yeah. Probably to keep the peace and to keep the relationship.

Martine Smith [03:55:28] I mean, I think he's guessed right. How's that?

John Dehlin [03:55:31] It always does strike me how maybe as humans, but definitely as Mormons, we avoid a lot of very candid conversations. Yeah, right.

Martine Smith [03:55:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:55:42] To Stewart's point, maybe out of a value of the relationships.

Stuart Smith [03:55:47] Right.

John Dehlin [03:55:52] Yeah. Well, I guess if he ever wants to know, he can watch Mormon stories and watch your story here.

Martine Smith [03:55:59] And he might do that maybe someday. Yeah, That's a lot of hours, but.

John Dehlin [03:56:06] Oh, well, Martine and Stuart, thanks for coming on warm stories and telling your story.

Martine Smith [03:56:13] Thank you for having us.

Stuart Smith [03:56:14] Yeah, thank you, John.

Martine Smith [03:56:16] And. And Margi, too, even though she had to leave.

Stuart Smith [03:56:18] Yeah.

Martine Smith [03:56:18] To tend to an emergency.

John Dehlin [03:56:20] Yeah. And Martine and Stuart, thanks for being such good friends over the years. There aren't many people who have been my friend for as long and, you know, who have been maybe as supportive as you guys have in some ways. And so I just want to personally thank you for that.

Martine Smith [03:56:37] You're welcome, John.

John Dehlin [03:56:40] All right. Will you guys take care and stay in touch?

Martine Smith [03:56:42] We will.

John Dehlin [03:56:43] Yeah.

Martine Smith [03:56:43] For sure.

Stuart Smith [03:56:44] Thanks, John. Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:56:46] Yeah. And thanks everyone. We hope you've enjoyed this four part epic series with Martine and Stuart. So please Comment Please Share this Please subscribe if you're a YouTube viewer, please hit the subscribe button that helps us with the algorithms. Please subscribe and follow on Facebook and all the social medias. Share this if there's anyone you think might benefit from it. And most importantly, thanks for everyone who supports Mormon Stories in the Open Stories foundation and these long form episodes. You know, we keep hearing that people value the long form, so we're doing it. If you do value this type of content, we welcome your support@mormonstories.org you can go up there, click on the Donate button, become a monthly donor, and we'll keep providing you with this type of content. Please shoot us your feedback@mormonstoriesgmail.com we love to hear ideas and feedback from you. There's and most importantly, just be good to each other, be kind to each other, and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care of.

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