Welcome and Introduction to Lupe Bartholomew

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is September 13, 2023, and we are so super excited or animato to have with us today in studio Lupe Bartholomew.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:00:16] Hey, Lupe. Hola. Como esta?

John Dehlin [00:00:18] Muy bien. Mucho gusto. Ha verde. Oh, my Spanish is so restful. We'll see what we can do. Yeah. Well, for those of you who don't know, Lupe Bartholomew is the witty, wise, talented, spunky mother of American Idol finalist David Archuleta. And Lupe, we will be hearing her story today. She and her mom and sisters joined the Mormon Church in Honduras in the late 1970s, and eventually they came to the United States and kind of were living the Mormon dream. And believe it or not, up until last. Last year, Lupe was a very devout, orthodox, believing and happy Mormon, I would say. Would you say that's true?

Lupe Bartholomew [00:01:10] Yeah, that is so true.

John Dehlin [00:01:11] And then, you know, her wonderful, brilliant, talented son, who fought the good fight for so many years as a believing, orthodox, faithful Mormon, served a mission, dated as many girls as he could, and in such a heartfelt, sincere, and thoughtful way, came out last year on Instagram, as I remember, and came out as gay to the Mormon world. And that was the beginning of Lupe's Mormon journey as it took a turn. And so what we're going to do is we're going to today hear Lupe's Mormon story. The focus is going to be on Lupe and her story, and we're going to then talk about kind of what changed for her and how she's processed those changes and where she is today in her Mormon journey. And I'm so thrilled to have with us as co host for today, Gerardo. Hey, Gerardo. How are you?

Gerardo Sumano [00:02:13] Good, how are you?

John Dehlin [00:02:14] Yeah, good.

Gerardo Sumano [00:02:15] I'm super happy to be here.

John Dehlin [00:02:17] Yeah. And I was. I was delighted when I found out that you and David had become, I don't know, friends. Is our friends? Is that a fair way to. Yeah, yeah. You guys, you know, guys are friends. So last year I. I found out that. That David reached out to you. Is that right?

Lupe Bartholomew [00:02:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:33] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:02:34] So I met Lupe a few months ago. Yeah, that was nice.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:02:37] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:02:37] And we talked. I remember, like, told her a little bit about my story. And, yeah, I think Lupe was still a believing member.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:02:46] I think so.

Gerardo Sumano [00:02:48] But, yeah, it's pretty interesting.

John Dehlin [00:02:50] And I was just super glad, you know, and I think a lot. Maybe. Maybe people don't know that. That David is half Latino. I mean, I guess there's probably a lot of people who know that, but there's probably a lot who don't. I didn't know that. And so I was just happy that he had you to talk to as he was kind of working through his own stuff. That made me happy. Anyway, today the focus is on Lupe. And Lupe, I know that to begin, you sort of wanted to begin with a disclaimer about your intentions for today and who you're speaking for and who you're not speaking for today.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:03:22] Yes. The disclaimer is, these are my thoughts and my beliefs. And I don't speak for my children or anyone in my family, but for me, I'm already getting emotional.

John Dehlin [00:03:35] Yeah, absolutely.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:03:36] So this is my story.

John Dehlin [00:03:38] Yeah. And we've got tissues there on the table if you need them prepared. Thank you. Margi and I had the pleasure of sitting down with you and your husband David for dinner, and it was just so fun and so delightful. So Margi sends her love and we're just really excited to hear your story, both of you.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:03:57] We can go out on a double day anytime. That was awesome. All right, what would you like to know?

John Dehlin [00:04:03] Yeah, And I do want to welcome anyone who's joining us today. All of our our guests or all of our listeners and viewers. We are live streaming this, so anyone on YouTube or Facebook that wants to ask a question or make a comment, we would love to incorporate questions and comments as they come up. Please be respectful and please know that the focus is on Lupe and that's where we kind of want questions to be directed. But welcome everyone, if you want to like this episode so that the YouTube algorithm share it. And if you want to subscribe to Mormon Stories podcast, wherever you find the podcast, that always helps us grow. So please do that if you can. Anything else, Gerardo, before we begin?

Gerardo Sumano [00:04:46] No, I think we're ready.

John Dehlin [00:04:47] Should we do it? Yeah, I guess I should say one last thing. Lupe requested that we we do a second episode. So this is going to be a one part episode in English where Lupe tells her story. We're going to record a second episode where Gerardo's going to lead, and the episode is going to be fully in Spanish. It's going to be the first time I've ever been involved and I think ever in a 100% Spanish speaking recording of a Mormon stories episode. And Lupe, is there anything you want to say about why you felt like you wanted to do that?

Lupe Bartholomew [00:05:21] Because I think especially my dad, he doesn't speak English, so I have Always wanted to share Mormon stories with my dad and I have not been able to do that. So this morning when I left, I told Papi, I'm going to do a version in Spanish so you can hear it and you can understand it. He's like, okay, okay. And so all my, you know, Latinos, I want, you guys, I want, I just want to share what's going on out there, you know, and I want to share with the Spanish people too.

John Dehlin [00:05:55] Yes.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:05:55] Mi gente Latina.

John Dehlin [00:05:57] Absolutely. Yeah. And you know, someday. It's always been in our dreams to have kind of like, well, either Mormon stories translated in other languages or. Or to just have other language based versions of Mormon stories with other people leading. And we just need, I guess, the resources to make that happen and, and the most importantly, the talent to volunteers to make that happen. But someday we hope that that happens. But until then, Lupe, you're up to. This is the beginning of it will be la primera, see? Yeah. All right, well, let's just go back to where your Mormon story begins. I'm going to guess it's not a long pioneer heritage beginning to your Mormon story, Lupe.

Growing Up Catholic in Honduras

Lupe Bartholomew [00:06:43] No. Growing up, I was Catholic and muy

John Dehlin [00:06:50] cattolica, as they say.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:06:51] Si catholica. My sister went to a non school and I remember going to my grandma's and going there to pray to the Virgin of, you know, Guadalupe, or Virgin Maria, and having all her candles and doing this, you know, Catholic prayer. And I love that. You know, I just love the religion. It was awesome.

John Dehlin [00:07:20] And this is in Honduras?

Lupe Bartholomew [00:07:22] Yeah, in Honduras.

John Dehlin [00:07:23] What city, in case you see that?

Lupe Bartholomew [00:07:24] Well, we moved around like La Ceiba, Tegucigalpa. So we moved around. So a lot. So.

John Dehlin [00:07:33] And how many siblings?

Lupe Bartholomew [00:07:35] I have three more sisters. I have no brothers.

John Dehlin [00:07:38] Okay, so there's four sisters. Four sisters total?

Lupe Bartholomew [00:07:42] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:07:42] And your parents.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:07:43] And my parents, yes.

John Dehlin [00:07:45] And your parents were Catholic before you?

Lupe Bartholomew [00:07:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:47] Okay.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:07:47] Yeah. I always felt bad because I never got baptized as a baby and I thought I was going to be condemned and I felt so bad because everybody was baptized and when they took the. The ostia. How you say that?

John Dehlin [00:08:01] The wafer.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:08:02] Wafer. I never had a chance. When you go out there and take the, like the sacrament.

Gerardo Sumano [00:08:09] Yeah.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:08:11] And I never had a chance to do that, so I felt bad that I never could do that. And do you know why you got baptized?

John Dehlin [00:08:18] You know why you weren't baptized?

Lupe Bartholomew [00:08:19] I. I really don't know.

John Dehlin [00:08:21] Okay, okay. Yeah, but so you felt like there was something missing.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:08:26] There's something missing. I felt ashamed. I Guess for not getting baptized as a baby.

John Dehlin [00:08:32] What did your parents do for work?

Lupe Bartholomew [00:08:34] My mom was a stay at home mom and my dad was a newscaster. So he was pretty famous in Honduras. He would do radio and tv.

John Dehlin [00:08:44] What?

Lupe Bartholomew [00:08:44] And he studied, he traveled the world. So he's a very well educated man.

John Dehlin [00:08:50] And were they both born in Honduras?

Lupe Bartholomew [00:08:52] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:08:53] Okay. Okay.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:08:54] Yes. My dad was born in La Ceiba and my mom was born or Lanchito.

John Dehlin [00:08:58] Okay. Yeah. Well, that's fun. TV and radio. That's super fun.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:09:03] Yes. It was fun to hear my dad, you know, coming home from school and people were listening to him on the radio and so he was a celebrity A little bit. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:09:14] Fun.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:09:14] He was. He was a celebrity.

John Dehlin [00:09:16] Okay.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:09:17] My dad.

John Dehlin [00:09:18] Okay. So do you have happy prior to joining the church? Would you say your family was happy? Was it struggling?

Family Life and Her Mother's Religious Search

Lupe Bartholomew [00:09:27] I think we were happy. There was a lot of unconditional love that my parents gave us. It was always unconditional love. That's all I knew. My mom, I think getting back into the religion, my mom, I think she was looking for a religion because we went from being evangelicals, Evangelical evangelical and Pentecostal, Jehovah Witnesses and investigating the Mormon Church. So we were investigating Jehovah Witnesses and the Mormon Church. I remember going to Jehovah Witnesses Church for a couple times and we had two wonderful young men that invited us to dinner and invited us to church to Jehovah Witnesses. And we like that. We also met the missionaries in the bus.

John Dehlin [00:10:25] Can I ask a quick question?

Lupe Bartholomew [00:10:26] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:10:26] Why didn't you just stay muy catholicos? Why didn't you stay Catholic?

Lupe Bartholomew [00:10:30] Yeah. I think my mom was just looking for a religion, but I really don't know. But I guess she didn't feel complete in the other religion because she used to be a teacher and either evangelic church or. And we were, you know, she, my mom was loved being involved in church. She liked to participate. She liked to be up front and always raising her hand. She always wanted to know, you know, everything. But she, you know, I remember us playing the. How you call this, a pandereta.

Gerardo Sumano [00:11:07] It's called the little instrument.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:11:10] The instrument that you play and you

Gerardo Sumano [00:11:11] say

Lupe Bartholomew [00:11:14] it was a.

John Dehlin [00:11:15] Called like a tambourine.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:11:16] Tambourine, yeah. So we used to play that. It was so much fun. Prayers were so much fun. And so we, we really enjoyed those kind of religions. It was just super fun.

John Dehlin [00:11:31] Yeah. Okay. To go to church, maybe the other churches that weren't Catholic were more exciting, more participatory, more. More fun, more joyous.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:11:40] Yes. Okay. Yes, I think so. But I was just wearing a little

Gerardo Sumano [00:11:44] girl, so wasn't mass or part of mass used to be in Latin or something? It was not fully in Spanish, so it was pretty boring.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:11:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:53] I'm not sure when that changed for a kid.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:11:54] Yes. But I think for adults, you know, you. You want to go there and.

Gerardo Sumano [00:11:58] Yeah.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:11:58] Just be at peace and just.

Gerardo Sumano [00:12:01] Yeah. You don't participate too much.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:12:03] Yeah. But I just. As a little kid, I think we just follow whatever my mom did, because my mom was always with us. Always. And it was a good thing. I loved it. We got criticized because my mom was always with us, but I love having my mom with us. And basketball. We used to play basketball in school, and I played basketball when I was 7 years old, up to 14, and I made it to the national team.

John Dehlin [00:12:33] What?

Lupe Bartholomew [00:12:33] So the Honduran national team. So I. I was the champion for my country as a free shot.

John Dehlin [00:12:43] Free throw.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:12:43] Free throws. So I was the champion. And then I went to the championship for Central America, and I got second place. Whoa. So that was fun. That was.

Gerardo Sumano [00:12:53] That's cool.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:12:54] That was really fun. My sisters also played. I played basketball with my sisters as well. So we played in a lot of teams, and it was. It was a lot of fun. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:13:05] Okay. So your mom is searching for the right church. She tries los testigos de Hova, and she tries to.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:13:14] And Mormons. So we met the missionaries in a bus. We were going to a basketball practice, my sisters and I and my mother. And then we saw the missionaries, this tall, blonde, super tall, blonde missionary, and the other one little one. And they were both American. So we were. We asked my mom, hey, mom, talk to them. Talk to them in English. Because we thought my mom spoke English, but she did a little bit. We didn't know. So she started talking to the missionaries. And then it was time for us to get out of the bus. And then the missionaries asked us, hey, where do you live? And my mom just said, at the other side of the bridge. That's all she said. Because, you know, I guess in our countries we don't do the addresses, you know, we just say, by the tree, by the pink house and turn left, you know?

Gerardo Sumano [00:14:09] Yeah.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:14:10] So she just said, at the other side of the bridge. And the next day, the missionaries found us.

John Dehlin [00:14:17] Okay.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:14:18] They found us. So they started teaching us the discussions, and we fell in love with the gospel. Everything they taught us. They taught us about word wisdom, and we were coffee drinkers because that was the culture. You know, you always drink your Coffee. And we drank lots and lots of coffee, light glasses of coffee. So that was part of our culture. But when the missionaries taught us about the word of wisdom and they said that we shouldn't be drinking coffee because of, you know, it wasn't healthy. So my mom immediately went to the store and exchanged the coffee for milk. And since then, up to this date, I have not drank coffee.

John Dehlin [00:15:07] Wow. Do you remember the song? There was a song that came out, Jesus est verbo, no substantivo. And it talked about Los Mormones decent cafe. Do you remember that?

Gerardo Sumano [00:15:23] I do remember.

John Dehlin [00:15:24] Do you remember that?

Lupe Bartholomew [00:15:24] Is that a primary song or.

John Dehlin [00:15:26] No, no, no.

Gerardo Sumano [00:15:26] This was like a criticism.

John Dehlin [00:15:28] Oh, no, there was like a. When I was in. On my mission.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:15:31] No.

John Dehlin [00:15:31] 88 to 90, Jesus Verbo, no substantivo. And it called out the Mormons.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:15:38] Oh, really?

John Dehlin [00:15:39] In a. In a globally famous song.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:15:42] Oh, interesting.

John Dehlin [00:15:43] That. That they considered cafe to be a sin.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:15:46] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:47] But in kind of a mocking way. So you don't remember that?

Lupe Bartholomew [00:15:49] No, no, I don't. I never heard. I never heard of it.

Gerardo Sumano [00:15:51] I did heard it here on my mission.

John Dehlin [00:15:53] All right.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:15:54] Oh, interesting.

John Dehlin [00:15:54] Anyway.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:15:55] No, I never heard of.

John Dehlin [00:15:56] So that's. That's interesting that you guys just stopped cafe. Just cold turkey, as they say.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:16:02] Everything they told us, we just were, like, so obedient. We just believed everything, you know.

John Dehlin [00:16:09] So were there a lot of changes besides cafe in your family?

Lupe Bartholomew [00:16:13] No, because we were not. We never smoked and we never drink. Like my sisters, she had parties at our home, and there were alcohol involved because she was older than us. But we never were tempted to drink, you know, or smoke. So that was kind of like, never a problem for us. So it was never a temptation for us to.

Gerardo Sumano [00:16:41] How about tithing?

Lupe Bartholomew [00:16:43] Tithing where we were. My mom never worked, and my dad just didn't earn a lot of money, and he never got baptized anyway, so we never paid tithing because we couldn't. But I remember the missionaries trying to teach us how to sew so we can learn how to work and provide for ourselves. So.

Lupe's Conversion to the Mormon Church

John Dehlin [00:17:08] So do you want to talk about your conversion? I guess I want to hear about your mom and your conversion with your sisters and then maybe why your dad didn't join as well.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:17:18] That's a good question.

John Dehlin [00:17:19] If you want to share. If you want to share.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:17:21] My conversion, I was only 12 years old, so I think I just did whatever my family did. And I kind of. When I was interviewed for the baptism, I remember getting really nervous, and my mind froze. And they. I think they asked me about the atonement. And I didn't know what to say. I didn't know how to explain it. So I kind of passed the baptism interview. I think I did not understand the gospel as well as my family did because I was still. I felt like I was still an innocent 12 year old, you know, so it kind of went over my head, but the feeling was good. And my mom had a dream about a choir singing this song. So when we first went to the Mormon church, my mom started crying because the song they were singing in sacrament meeting was Come Come Ye Saints, that song. And she started bawling and she said, this is the song I heard in my dream or the vision. I don't think it was a vision or a dream, but that's the same song. She heard a choir of angels singing. And I think that was the Tabernacle Choir. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:18:52] Let me see if I remember. Santos, Venice, Sintiemonit.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:19:02] So, yeah, it's beautiful. We joined the choir. We participated in everything. The missionaries taught English lessons, the Book of Mormon, we had Book of Mormon classes. And every time we went to church, we did not have a car or we did not have a phone. So we have to walk. I don't know how many miles we walked to church in the dark, you know, we'll come home in the dark. From activities.

Gerardo Sumano [00:19:32] Wasn't it like in the morning you went and then there was like activities at night or something on Sunday? Yeah.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:19:38] I remember being called as a teacher when I was 12, as a primary teacher when I was 12. We have to walk to houses because sometimes we didn't have a church. We went to a house and met there, but we were fully participants. We were just 200% into giving, learning everything about the church. So it was really fun. We gained a lot of confidence in the church and we just loved it. We would just love the gospel.

John Dehlin [00:20:16] Did your dad object at all? Was he worried?

Lupe Bartholomew [00:20:19] No, my dad never gave us a problem. He just supported our decision that he stayed Catholic. Up to this day, he's still Catholic.

John Dehlin [00:20:29] Did he ever explain why he didn't join?

Lupe Bartholomew [00:20:33] I think he was just being respectful. I just found out when I left the church that he already knew the whole story of Joseph Smith and everything. But out of respect, he never said anything. I was like, dad, what? But he was respectful of our decision, so. And I think he saw a lot of good that we were doing. A lot of good. We were busy all the time, you know, doing talent shows and we were. We were just participating in Church all the time. So it was a good thing in our lives.

Serving as a Missionary in Mexico

John Dehlin [00:21:09] So one thing that just stood out to me in our dinner is that you are a singer. You, you're modest, but you're a good singer. Yeah, a really good singer. I guess you've performed publicly here, there as well. And I'm curious, was your family musical before you joined the church and or to what extent was music sort of a part of your life because of joining the Mormon Church?

Lupe Bartholomew [00:21:38] My grandpa on my dad's side, Joaquin Mayorga, I remember him playing the accordion and my dad said he played the guitar, he played all the instruments by ear. He would play really good. So my dad is not a singer. My mom always wanted to be in the spotlight, but she was a stay at home mom. She was always singing around the house, always smiling and singing, you know, Aldi La. She sighed too. She was always singing and always happy. And so I had a good, you know, childhood with my mother, but we participated in church choir because we did everything together, me and my sisters, up to this date. Now that we're old, we still do things together. We go out dancing together, we play basketball together. We, we do everything together. So we did choir and that's how we learned how to sing in different voices. You know, tenor, we knew about tenor and the bass and the mezzo soprano and soprano, so. And we travel with the choir too, locally, in Honduras. So we loved singing.

Gerardo Sumano [00:22:52] Was this a Mormon choir?

Lupe Bartholomew [00:22:54] Oh, yeah, it's a Mormon choir.

John Dehlin [00:22:56] There was a traveling Mormon choir.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:22:58] Yeah, locally, Honduras. And they. I remember singing on the state choir as a soloist. And I was still, you know, maybe I was 13 or something. I just felt so incompetent because there was a lady that was American, there was an American family, and she sang so good and I felt so incompetent because, like, why didn't he choose her instead of me? Because I'm a child and I, I, I can't, I never sang a solo in my life, you know, and this is in state choir, There was like 2,000 people and the song was. I forgot the name. Galilea. I, I don't remember that. Anyway, I was shaky. I was just shaking and singing my little, I felt like I was a little bird singing. So that was a big test. But then me and my sisters always try to sing together. We never tried to be in a professional group, but we did, you know, competitions just for fun. And we always did family talent shows. Oh, in the family. So just as a family, just for fun. It's never like When I. My sister Miriam, she showed me a video of her son Richard singing when he was six years old. He was singing the song Ben from Michael Jackson, and he sounded so amazing. And I thought, oh, my gosh, the feeling was so beautiful. And I thought, I want to do this for my kids, too. I want my children to sing. But it was never of, oh, I want my children to be famous, you know, but it was just like the feeling that you give to others when you sing and you make other people happy, you know? And that was my purpose. That's why, you know, when my kids were little, I tried to train them to singing Christmas, you know, Christmas songs for the neighbors. And

John Dehlin [00:25:20] so I served a mission in Guatemala from 88 to 90. And one adjustment for me living in Guatemala was noticing that music in Guatemala in a Mormon church service was quite different than what I had been accustomed to in the United States. Many of the chapels that I served in did not have a piano. If they did have a piano, no one knew how to play it, or few people knew how to play it. And oftentimes it would just be someone standing up, leading. Everyone would sing a cappella out of tune. But, yeah, we were singing, and definitely not harmony. And I'm not trying to say that that was just my experience in Guatemala. I guess I just assumed that that was all Latin America, which is dumb, but it sounds like there was a higher level of music in your Mormon upbringing than what I often experienced in Guatemal. Gerardo, I'm curious if you have thoughts on this, too, from a Mexico perspective.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:26:27] It depends, because we serve in little branches. And I remember again, there was another American sister that taught us how to lead the music. So we learned how to do tres porquatro or cuatro porquatro, you know, to lead the music. Because, yes, there were. There weren't talent to, you know, people didn't have the piano skills. So we have to sing a lot in a cappella. So depends how we. Where we served, you know. So, like, I remember. And this is. I think, yeah, this is still in Honduras. We moved to a neighborhood, and the missionaries were walking and we. And my mom said, hey, elders, we. We're here. We're the Mallorca family. And the missionary said, oh, we're going back to the state. Because my mom was asking, where's the church? And the missionary said, there is no progress here, so we need to go back to the stake because we don't have people, we can't baptize anybody, or the church is not progressing. The Branch is not progressing. So my mom told the missionaries, well, you guys might go to the stake, but the Mayorga family is staying here. So she started knocking on doors. She went with the missionaries and started knocking on doors, and she started having family home evenings. And we had a big crowd that we couldn't even walk because there were so many people, you know, in our living room. And my mom worked hard. My mom healed the sick. She went with my sister to. She will climb big hills and to find, you know, because the house is there. You know, there's a lot of mountains in my country, so in Honduras. So she would have to walk, you know, uphill, up, up, up, up, you know, to heal the. Pray for the sick. And she. My mom had a lot of faith. And so we even had an incident where because we worked so hard in missionary work, we worked mission like missionaries 24, 7. You know, we sing in church. We were so dedicated. I'm sorry. We were so committed as a family. We. We gave our hearts. One day, my mom was serving. L. I heard him scream, saying, girls, come here. The plates are. The plates that she was serving lunch were floating in the air. And that day was. We could feel Satan's power in our home. And I didn't believe her, you know, I didn't believe her. So I'm like, sure. The place, you know, this sounds like a scary story. I don't know if I should be saying that, but this is what I lived. So I sat on the table to eat my lunch. I'm like, sure, sure. The plates are falling, are flying in the air. Mom, come on. So nothing was happening. And then I put my plate right here to start eating. When I was about to take a bite, the plate moved and we jumped out. Jumped out. Because it's like, I believe there is evil because of that. I felt. We felt Satan's presence because we were so dedicated to God, to serving God, that. That I think he. He wanted to come and, you know, bother us because we were into serving Jesus. We were committed. So my mom, that day, ended up going to knock on the door of the missionaries, like at midnight. He asked them to come and bless each one of us and bless our home. So the missionaries came and gave us a blessing. As soon as they gave us the blessing and blessed our home, you can feel that the bad spirit that there was like a dense, like a heavy. I don't know how to explain it, but there was something heavy in the air that did not that it was evil. And when they pray and blessed us it just went away, just immediately went away. So I was that, that's the priesthood, you know, that's the priesthood right there, there. There was no doubt that the priesthood was real. So. And we had another incident too where we heard like a broom in the techo. In the, in the roof and you could hear. And that was in another house. Every time we went outside to look and see what was going on, nobody was there. So I remember the branch president telling us, okay, just open your Bible. You know, open the Bible and leave it there. So we did that and the bad spirit went away. So I do believe in bad spirits because I lived that experience and I'm sorry, I think we were talking about music and then I switched to no, that's beautiful.

John Dehlin [00:32:52] That's beautiful. Yeah. Well, I think you were. I think music is one way that your family showed their commitment to the church. But I think you were basically trying to express how committed your family was, how much they loved the church.

Gerardo Sumano [00:33:07] And these experiences that kind of shape your testimony too, right? About the church?

Lupe Bartholomew [00:33:11] Yes, yes. I was never into church history. I was more, I think, as a child because I was 12 when I got baptized. So to me, it's hard now to see that an 8 year old have to make a decision of getting baptized because they still, I think they're still children, they still can't comprehend the whole, you know, the deepness of what the gospel is all about. So. And I was 12 and I thought I was still a child and I still didn't comprehend a lot of the gospel. But I went because of the feeling, you know, there was a good feeling. I felt the spirit and I felt good in the church and I felt good, my family felt good. So everything was about feeling good as long as I felt good and I relied on other people's testimonies when they, you know, bore their testimony and I felt something, I felt that testimony was so powerful. So I just feel in my heart this is true, so it must be true. So. But I never went into church history. I never liked reading about, you know, about Joseph Smith story.

Gerardo Sumano [00:34:30] Oliver Cowdery.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:34:31] Oliver Cowder. I just kind of knew the story about, you know, Joseph Smith, the first vision, seeing the Father and the. And the Son. But I was more into. I want to feel good.

John Dehlin [00:34:47] Yeah, that's important. Feeling good is super important. How important were missionaries in your Mormon experience as a teenage girl? Because in Latin America, in my experience, especially in branches, but even in wards, the missionaries that are constantly coming in play maybe a more important role in the branch in the ward than we might realize in the United States. Is that true?

Lupe Bartholomew [00:35:18] It was super important. The missionary who baptized us, his name was is Kent Minch. He was like. Like my brother. Sometimes he will bring us food because we didn't have food to eat because the circumstances in my country were really bad for my parents because they were extremely poor and my dad couldn't make ends meet, you know, with his job. Even though he worked so hard, you know, he hardly earned a lot of money. But the missionaries came to our home with bags of food sometimes. So he. He became like my brother. I mean, missions were my. Our brothers, and we love the mission of the mission. Missionaries were always welcome in our home, you know, so they. They were just. We didn't have brothers. We only had sisters. So missions were our brothers. So, yeah,

Gerardo Sumano [00:36:23] sometimes missionaries. So this used to be, like, you know, decades ago. The church is a little bit more developed in Latin American countries now, and so it's a lot different, probably a lot closer to what it is in us especially, like, countries like Mexico. But when my parents served missions, like, my dad would be like the branch president, for example, in several of his branches.

John Dehlin [00:36:46] You know, I was branch president for eight months of my mission. Yeah, yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:36:50] So pretty common for missionaries to be super, super involved in the administration of the church.

John Dehlin [00:36:56] And for those who don't know, a ward is a Mormon congregation that usually has, I don't know, 3, 4, 500 people. A branch is a new and emerging congregation that doesn't have the population to become a full ward. So a branch president is like a priest or a bishop, but for a smaller congregation.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:37:21] Oh, speaking of, when I was saying about the church that my mom started knocking on the doors and the missionaries said that they were going back to the state because they couldn't baptize anyone.

John Dehlin [00:37:31] Yeah. How'd that story end?

Lupe Bartholomew [00:37:33] It grew. The church. So before we came to the states, they were building a church because we were meeting in a small house, a really tiny house, because they were like. My mom was the Relief Society president. My sister will lead the hymns. The other sister was the young woman's president. And so we all took, you know, the callings because they weren't people. And it started growing and growing and growing and growing. But we never saw the church being built, but we heard.

John Dehlin [00:38:06] What was the name of the town?

Lupe Bartholomew [00:38:08] Colonia San Miguel.

John Dehlin [00:38:09] Okay.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:38:10] So I wish. I wish.

John Dehlin [00:38:11] So just to restate the. The branch in San Miguel wasn't thriving, so the. The mission was going to pull the missionaries out.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:38:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:22] And kind of kill the branch.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:38:23] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:38:24] But your mom said, not on my watch.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:38:26] No.

John Dehlin [00:38:26] And she, through determination and commitment, along with your family.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:38:29] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:38:30] Stayed. Grew the branch to the point where it not only became a ward, but they eventually built a chapel in that, a Mormon chapel in that.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:38:39] Because we left the US at that time. But, yeah, my mom kicked butt. My mom was just a warrior. It's like her faith and her determination was just beyond anyone I have met in my life. She was just super dedicated in the gospel.

Gerardo Sumano [00:39:04] I've heard that a lot of women like your mom, built the church in Latin America. You know, there's a lot of those stories. Your story is really close to my grandma. And, you know, she was known for having built, you know, the church there in Merida. So the church was starting in Merida when she joined the church. And pretty similar stories, too. So, yeah, women. And then usually the husbands wouldn't get baptized.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:39:33] Yes. So it's the men.

Gerardo Sumano [00:39:35] Same story. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:37] No, let's face it. The women are the backbone of the Mormon Church, and men are more visible. Men make the decisions. Men are the leaders. They sit up on the stand. But who's organizing the events, cooking the food?

Lupe Bartholomew [00:39:50] Like, even in Relief Society. The Relief Society sisters, they would put the mantle and put the flowers and the pictures, and then you see the priesthood teaching a class, and there's nothing. Okay, brothers, let's start the class. Yeah, but the Relief Society is always, you know, Right. You know, right there just to.

Gerardo Sumano [00:40:13] They have their stuff together.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:40:15] Yeah. All heart.

John Dehlin [00:40:17] What an inspiring role model that your mom must have been.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:40:20] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:40:21] Is she still alive?

Lupe Bartholomew [00:40:22] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:40:23] Oh, okay. She's still alive.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:40:24] She's still alive. Okay. Okay. Yeah. She's got a little bit of dementia right now, but if you talk to her about her experiences in the missionary world in Honduras, she would just light up and start talking. Yeah, this is what happened. Yes. She was a warrior, my mom. Like I said, she just. All I knew that there was a Jesus and that Jesus loved me because my mother's love. I will compare that to my mother's love. And that's what I try to do with, you know, with my family, too. But I can never be like my mom. I'm just this much, and my mom's like 10 times. I can never catch up with her.

John Dehlin [00:41:12] Well, we'll have to hear from your kids on what type of mom you are.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:41:16] Oh, no. Running away.

John Dehlin [00:41:20] Let me ask you really quickly. What role did the Book of Mormon play in your adolescence, in your teen years, as a Mormon? Did you read it?

Lupe Bartholomew [00:41:30] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:30] Did you? You know, in my experience, Latinos were taught that they were Lamanites, that they were descendants of the Lehi and Nephi and Laman and Lemuel. And so they called themselves Lamanites and they were proud to be proud to be thought of as Lamanites. What role did the Book of Mormon and its stories play in your life?

Lupe Bartholomew [00:41:53] When I was little, I just read the Book of Mormon, not understanding, again, the history. I just read it because I felt good about it and because we needed to read the Book of Mormon. So I will go up in, you know, in a quiet room and just read the Book of Mormon a lot and I was going to say something I forgot.

John Dehlin [00:42:20] So the Book of Mormon was an important part of your life?

Lupe Bartholomew [00:42:23] It was. So my sisters. Thank you. My sisters and I used to go to school and we'll take the Book of Mormon with us and read it in front of our friends so they could see that we were Mormons and that, you know, we have another book that it's not just the Bible, that is. There's another book exists that the Book of Mormon. So we used to. We weren't ashamed to be Mormons because we. There were not a lot of Mormons in our school. So, yeah, we'll just take the Book of Mormon and read it in front of everyone.

John Dehlin [00:42:57] Did you identify as a lamentita, would you have called yourself?

Lupe Bartholomew [00:43:00] When I was little? No, I just, I didn't understand it.

John Dehlin [00:43:03] Okay.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:43:03] I understood that later, like when I was older, but as a kid or as a teenager. As a teenager, I was still into the feeling of. I feel good. I love the talent shows. I love how we're progressing. So it was never about the doctrine for me. At least for me, it was never about the doctrine.

Gerardo Sumano [00:43:27] I think it's probably the church being so young too. Members who are teaching the classes or who, you know, in Sunday school, they're learning about these things as they're.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:43:36] Yeah, there's a lot of complex reading

Gerardo Sumano [00:43:38] it on the manuals, you know.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:43:40] That's true. Yeah. So we were first generation Mormons, so.

Gerardo Sumano [00:43:45] Yeah.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:43:46] You know, background? Just Catholic.

John Dehlin [00:43:48] And do you remember loving the. Whoever the prophet or the president of the Mormon Church was at the time? Kimball?

Lupe Bartholomew [00:43:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:57] And do you remember what you thought or felt about Spencer B. Kimball?

Lupe Bartholomew [00:44:01] I never doubted that the prophet was a prophet. Never. It never hit my mind that, oh my gosh, you know, but it was always 100% supportive of whatever the missionaries taught us. We believed. And that's it. There was no doubting it was just, this is it. This is what we believe, you know? So, I mean, that's.

John Dehlin [00:44:28] It's so mind blowing to think about it. Like, two dudes show up at my doorstep from another country and then all of a sudden, okay, what's truth? Okay, whatever you say. I'm going to believe, oh, there's some old guy back in your country who talks to God. Okay, I'll believe that. Oh, you have a book for me? Okay. This is God's truth. It's really interesting.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:44:47] We were called the Golden Family. We were called the Golden Family by the missionaries.

John Dehlin [00:44:51] Familiar.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:44:52] We believed everything. Everything was just. Yep, yep, yep. Okay. Word of wisdom. Sure. Prophet. Sure. Everything. Everything was just. There was no doubt.

John Dehlin [00:45:03] It reminds me of that song Salt Lake City in the Book of Mormon musical. I don't know if you've seen it, but, you know, the missionaries go into Africa telling them about this place called Salt Lake City where there's a prophet. It's almost like Oz and the wizard of Oz, far, far away where you've never visited. But that's where truth is and that's where goodness is. So what did the United States and the Mormon Church in Salt Lake City, how did you think about that as a teenage girl growing up in Honduras?

Immigrating to the United States as a Teenager

Lupe Bartholomew [00:45:34] I didn't think about Salt Lake City then.

John Dehlin [00:45:37] Okay. Okay.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:45:39] I was just. I never thought that we were ever going to come to the state. The States. So my dad got a job in the United States and he brought us all here. So my sister Reyna, my older sister, came first, and then it was like a miracle because they were not giving visas. So my dad got that job and he brought us all to. I think we came to the state in 1981. How old were you to Miami? I was 14.

John Dehlin [00:46:08] Okay.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:46:08] Yeah, I was 14, 15 when I came to the States.

John Dehlin [00:46:12] Okay. So you and your family moved to Miami when you were 15.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:46:16] And we also worked super hard there. The missionary work. We sang in every baptism. We went to our word to many words. On Sundays, we will go from one word to another word to another word, singing. Me and my sister, we love to sing. And every baptism, you know the missionaries, hey, you need somebody to sing, we'll sing in your baptism.

John Dehlin [00:46:41] Was the culture shock coming to the United States? And what about the language?

Lupe Bartholomew [00:46:46] Oh, yeah, we didn't. We never went to school to learn English. And you can tell I still struggle. But I remember I personally studied a little book that was called Basic English. It was a little tiny book. And I started memorizing phrases and started Talking to people. So we just kind of taught ourselves the English language.

John Dehlin [00:47:12] But you had to go to high school where everyone spoke English, right?

Lupe Bartholomew [00:47:15] I couldn't. We couldn't go to high school because by then our visas were expired. So we had to. We tried to go to Miami High, and we couldn't go to school because they didn't let us.

Gerardo Sumano [00:47:28] Wow.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:47:29] I wanted to keep playing basketball because my coaches in Honduras were telling my parents, hey, we want Lupe back. Can she come back and play in the team? And I wanted to keep playing basketball, you know, in high school, but we couldn't. So we ended up working and we did under the table jobs, you know, housekeeping or. I remember when I was 16, I got my first job and I pulled my hair up and I was. And so I can try to look older. So I went to an interview taking care of this elderly woman. She was 85 years old. It was a job of seven days a week. And I just told her, hey, I'm 18 years old and I love taking care of people. So I got hired for the job. But later I told her the truth. I told her, hey, I'm only 16, but I needed this job so I can help provide for my family as well. Because everybody was working under the table back then, too.

John Dehlin [00:48:38] So I don't know much about, you know, the immigrant experience. I'll say. So I had. I just would have assumed that however you got here, if you were of age to go to public schools, you just go to public schools. Is that not.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:48:53] We didn't know better. I think we didn't know how to help ourselves or how to ask the right questions. Hey, how do we get a visa? How do we get legal? We just did not know. Yeah, I don't think we knew.

Gerardo Sumano [00:49:06] So it sounds like her dad got a work visa so he could bring all his family. They entered legally and then the visa expired. I don't know back then, but now undocumented immigrants, their kids can go to school in the US without documents. But I don't know, back then, it could be the. Back then, they were not allowed. If you didn't have way to prove that you were staying in the US Legally.

John Dehlin [00:49:37] Okay, I'm curious. Do you. Do you know what job brought your dad to the United States? What type of job?

Lupe Bartholomew [00:49:43] Let me call him Puppy if you want to share.

John Dehlin [00:49:45] Oh, you don't know.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:49:46] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:49:47] Was it radio or tv? No, it was something else.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:49:51] Something with a government, I think. Okay, I forgot.

John Dehlin [00:49:54] Okay. So you never went to high school in the United States?

Lupe Bartholomew [00:49:58] No, I couldn't. I wanted to, but.

John Dehlin [00:50:00] Oh, I'm so.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:50:01] So we work. I was 16, and I had to work seven days a week.

John Dehlin [00:50:05] Seven days a week?

Lupe Bartholomew [00:50:07] Yeah. It was a living job. And I earned 150 bucks a week.

John Dehlin [00:50:12] Doing what again?

Lupe Bartholomew [00:50:13] Taking care of an elderly woman. And she became like family. She became. I call her granny. But I told her, hey, I lied to you because I needed a job. I told you I was 18, but I'm really 16 years old. And she used to tell me, but, Lupe, what is a 16 year old going to? $150. That's a lot of money. She used to tell me. And I thought, the money's not for me. It's, you know, it's to help my family survive, you know, so.

Gerardo Sumano [00:50:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:50:42] So what was it like? Was it a struggle for your family to survive financially in Miami?

Lupe Bartholomew [00:50:47] Yes. Yes, it was a struggle, but we tried to work hard, you know, so we tried to.

John Dehlin [00:50:54] You did work hard When.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:50:55] When my mom took me to the store the first time. We live close to call in Miami, but we walked to the store and I remember my mom buying bread and my mom buying this and buying that, and I thought, that's a lot of food. Wow. My mom is buying a lot of food. So that was like a blessing, you know, to be able to work and go buy the food that you need. So I appreciate that so much.

John Dehlin [00:51:26] So your standard of living increased when you moved here?

Lupe Bartholomew [00:51:29] Yeah. Yes. But even though we live in. It was a one bedroom apartment like in Honduras, we also struggle because we never had a phone, we never had a car, we have to walk everywhere. So we, you know, I grew up like that, but I love my childhood. I have great memories of my childhood. So I don't think anything was missing because my parents knew how to provide the love that we needed. So financially, you know, we struggle, but the love was there.

John Dehlin [00:52:01] But you're saying it was six of you in a one bedroom apartment in Miami?

Lupe Bartholomew [00:52:04] It was like three of my sisters.

John Dehlin [00:52:08] Okay.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:52:08] And my mom. Unfortunately, my parents, because of the situation, they. They got divorced. So. So then, yeah, okay, so it was

John Dehlin [00:52:20] your mom and you and two sisters, four of you living in a one bedroom apartment.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:52:24] But we were used to that because in Honduras, sometimes we will share one bed, too. The four sisters and two sleep this way and two sleep the other way. So we just made, you know, we just made it work.

Gerardo Sumano [00:52:37] How did.

John Dehlin [00:52:38] How did. How did you feel you were treated by residents of the United States as. As on the Iranian.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:52:47] There was a Lot of Cubans and people from Nicaragua. So we did not need the English language because there was a lot of Hispanic in Miami. If you go to Miami and you're an American, we'll be like, hey, there's an American. Mostly are Latinos.

Gerardo Sumano [00:53:04] You're the minority, John.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:53:05] Yeah, minority in America. You don't see those days, you know, you didn't see American. So there's a lot of everything in Spanish. So you don't need. You go to Miami, you don't need English.

John Dehlin [00:53:18] This is totally right.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:53:20] It felt right about at home, because my country is humid and hot, and Miami is humid and hot, so. And everybody speaks Spanish.

John Dehlin [00:53:32] So did you end up feeling homesick, or did you end up really loving Miami?

Lupe Bartholomew [00:53:35] No, we loved it.

John Dehlin [00:53:36] Okay.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:53:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:37] Okay, good.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:53:37] We love being in the States.

Finding the Church in America and Early Adulthood

John Dehlin [00:53:39] And did you feel like the church, the Mormon Church, was the same, worse or better than what you had experienced in.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:53:46] I think the church was still the same, because everywhere you go, you know, it's just the same. Yeah, the love is there. The, you know, the. You serve on calling, so it's pretty much the same.

Gerardo Sumano [00:54:01] Okay, but you have a chapel to go to here, right?

Lupe Bartholomew [00:54:04] We have a chapel.

Gerardo Sumano [00:54:05] It's a little bit. Maybe more organized, with more callings, more people, because it's a little bit more mature. You went to a Spanish word, I imagine, right?

Lupe Bartholomew [00:54:14] Yeah, we went to Spanish word, but we tried to go to English. Like I said, we used to go to many wards, me and my sister. We just kept going to church all the time. We were in church all the time.

John Dehlin [00:54:26] Did you play church basketball? Women's basketball, Young women's basketball. Was that fun?

Lupe Bartholomew [00:54:30] Yes, it was fun. It was like playing with the guys. Me and my sisters, we play with the guys because they always thought that, you know, oh, look at those ladies, those little kids. But we play like guys, you know, it's like, watch out. In those days, now we're old. We're too old.

John Dehlin [00:54:47] But I want to play basketball with you, Lupe.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:54:50] Yeah, that'd be fun. Let's do it.

John Dehlin [00:54:52] All right. Okay. Did you date as a teenager? As a Mormon teenage girl in Miami?

Lupe Bartholomew [00:54:58] Yeah. When I was 16, I was dating a guy that was in the Navy, and he used to live in Key West. He was stationed in Key west, but Mormon. I was. He was Mormon. Okay. So. But I. I work seven days a week, so my mom would switch me someday so I could go date, and she would switch me and take care of the elderly woman.

John Dehlin [00:55:20] And then was he gringo or was he.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:55:22] He was American. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:23] Okay. All right.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:55:24] He's a good kid. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:55:27] Fun. So he did it a little bit.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:55:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:30] So you wouldn't have done seminary, Would you have done early morning seminary?

Lupe Bartholomew [00:55:33] Seminary. I think I decided some seminary in Honduras.

John Dehlin [00:55:38] Okay.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:55:39] But we didn't do it in school like they do here. We just took a seminary class in the evening.

Gerardo Sumano [00:55:44] Right.

John Dehlin [00:55:45] I guess there's a part of me wondering why your bishop, your Mormon bishop wouldn't have helped get you into school somehow. But I. Again, I don't know what I'm talking about.

Gerardo Sumano [00:55:55] I don't know either from back then. I don't know if it was. If they could do it.

John Dehlin [00:56:02] Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:56:03] Yeah. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:56:05] Anything else about your teenage years before we kind of go to adulthood? And teenager, did you take the GED or did you.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:56:13] You know, I. I took a gd. I never. Yeah, I never went to high school.

John Dehlin [00:56:19] Okay. Okay.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:56:20] But I just worked. I just needed to work.

John Dehlin [00:56:23] Okay. So did you ever make friends in your ward who were, like, going to BYU or, you know, Mormon kids that were. That were going to do all the Mormon things like go on missions and go to BYU and that sort of thing?

Lupe Bartholomew [00:56:37] I've always been an introvert, so my sisters are, up to this day, my best friends.

John Dehlin [00:56:44] Okay.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:56:45] So it's kind of like we were always doing missionary work and helping people, but my best friends have always been my sisters. So I have never had a need to. But we did have friends, but my best friends are my sister because as an introvert, I think, you know, I'm just kind of like. You get comfortable in just being alone, I guess, or.

Gerardo Sumano [00:57:11] Yeah, how about missions? Did you ever hear about Mormons serving a mission? Women probably was not super common to serve missions back then.

Lupe Bartholomew [00:57:22] I think I always wanted to serve a mission, but I got married when I was 23, so I always wanted to be a mom. But I was going to say, I never enjoy going to young women's. Preacher used to say, lupe, you need to go to young women's. I'm like, no, I just never felt I connected with the girls. But I love Relief Society, so I would sneak out to Relief Society all the time because they were talking about motherhood and they were talking about more important things that I thought they were more important because I always wanted to be a mom. So that's why I got married when I was 23 and had my first child immediately, like a year after. So.

John Dehlin [00:58:10] And you may or may not want to talk about any of this, so just say, I'd rather not. Talk about that. So did you marry someone who's lds? Was it a temple marriage? And is there anything you want to say about that or not?

Marriage, Family, and the Loss of a Child

Lupe Bartholomew [00:58:23] Yeah, actually I was inactive in the church, but being inactive doesn't mean that I did not have a testimony. I was just inactive because I just didn't feel like going to church.

Gerardo Sumano [00:58:38] But for what age?

Lupe Bartholomew [00:58:42] I think I was. Yeah, when I 22, I was here in the States. I was inactive, active, inactive, active until lately when I decided last year when I'm like I'm just going to be super strong and nobody who leaves the church I'm staying in. So yeah, when I met my previous husband, he was a returned missionary and we dated and I told him I was inactive and he said, you're inactive? No way. So you know, I started getting active in the church again because he was an active lds, so. And then we did get married in the temple. I think we took the bus because we were poor. We took the bus to Salt Lake City from Miami because I met him in Miami and we took the bus and we got married in the Salt Lake Temple.

John Dehlin [00:59:37] And. Yeah, okay. And your profession at the time you married him, were you still helping, helping others, you know, kind of supporting elderly people or did your job change?

Lupe Bartholomew [00:59:55] Got married? I did not want to work. I just wanted to be a stay at home mom. So my goal was I want to be a stay at home mom. So I, I gave birth in 1989, my first child, Claudia. And then David came along 1990 and then I did had a stillborn child. My third child was a boy, so I would have six children. So that was a, A very tough experience for me because here I am expecting to have this beautiful child to hold him in my arms. And I never knew about stillborn. I read everything about children, but I never knew until it happened to me. And so I lost that child. And I remember I used to go to the Spanish war and the Spanish war people used to tell me, well, that child did not exist. And I said, but I felt him move in my belly. How can you tell me that? Because I went nine months, you know, carried a term.

John Dehlin [01:01:17] Full term.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:01:18] I carried full term. And it hurt when I heard the members telling me that that child did not exist.

John Dehlin [01:01:31] What did you believe?

Lupe Bartholomew [01:01:32] I was never going to see him again. I, I held in my arms and I saying families can be together forever because I, even though I was confused about that, I was never going to see that child again. I still believe deep inside of my heart that that was going to see him again. So that was a tough one. What kept me going was that I had my two children, Claudia and David. You know, they were still, you know, two, three year olds. I don't know. They were. They kept me busy. And. I love them so much that I never wanted them to see me cry. I never wanted to see that I was weak. I want them to know that I was there for them. So I have to kind of put aside my pain. So I could. So they could have a happy mom, a strong mother. And because I always thought that people that kept the past, the people that have depression, people that keep thinking about their problems or their, you know, they were always depressed. And I did not want to be that. I wanted to be just like, hey, I got to move on. I got to. I got to be happy for these two kids. So I'm going to make it work. I'm just going to, you know, put this aside, you know, the pain aside. I'm going to keep going raising these children.

John Dehlin [01:03:32] Thank you for sharing something so hard. I'm curious about what you were told about your stillborn child and never seen them again. Because Mormons traditionally have believed that the spirit enters the fetus, you know, soon after conception and that certainly that fetus has a spirit.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:04:00] And I felt him move the night before I gave birth to him. He was moving. He was moving.

John Dehlin [01:04:11] And so Mormons of all faiths would have a belief that you would see that child again.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:04:16] But it was the Spanish word also could have meant that they didn't have all the information.

John Dehlin [01:04:26] Sure.

Gerardo Sumano [01:04:26] There's also that scripture in the Book of Mormon, though, where Jesus is talking, because he's gonna come to earth and he's gonna be born, remember? I think it's to Nephi, if I remember right, and he says, I'll come tomorrow. So that kind of makes it sound like his spirit was not yet interesting.

John Dehlin [01:04:47] I forgot about that. Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:04:49] So, yeah, it's kind of a little bit contradicting in scripture.

John Dehlin [01:04:53] Okay.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:04:54] Yeah. There's a lot of converts, like we talked before in the Spanish ward, you know, so I don't think they were fully understanding the whole thing, but yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:04] Yeah. Because I know Mormon families, and this is just for those who've never been Mormon. They name their stillborn child. They still consider them part of the family. When you ask them how many children, they would count that in the number of children and give them a name, and they would fully believe. They would fully believe they'd see that kid again in the afterlife. Okay. Yeah. Just so. So folks know that's often what. What some Mormons believe. Your first husband, did he speak English? Was he a native? Was he a resident of the United States?

Lupe Bartholomew [01:05:37] He served a mission in Philadelphia. So he spoke Spanish, but he was

John Dehlin [01:05:43] a native English speaker.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:05:44] Yeah, he was. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:45] So I just wonder if you never went to high school speaking English and you came here and all your, you know, your family was English speaking, Spanish speaking. I just can't imagine getting married. And I'm not asking you to go into any detail, but from your perspective, separate from your first husband, like trying to be in a marriage where you're talking about sensitive or emotional things and you're having to speak in English, which isn't your native language, and you're an immigrant. I imagine that would be very challenging because with both speaking English and both being from the same country, marriage can be excruciatingly difficult. So I can only imagine from your perspective that that might have been difficult. I don't know.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:06:41] Not really, because, like I said, I didn't have to. I think we learned English in one year, so we were, you know, communicating. And he spoke Spanish, so we.

John Dehlin [01:06:54] He spoke.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:06:55] Well, I didn't have to work, so.

John Dehlin [01:06:58] Okay.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:06:59] So it wasn't really in the church. We used to go to the Spanish ward, and we'll switch to English, so we'll go to both. So it wasn't really hard.

Gerardo Sumano [01:07:07] My husband doesn't speak Spanish. And even for me, I went to college here and I learned English back at home. There. There. We struggle sometimes, you know, because I. Sometimes I say a word that I. It's not what was supposed to be the word that I was supposed to use or what I was thinking. I mean, it happens. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:29] Or maybe there's a word that you want to say in Spanish that you don't know the right translation. Right.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:07:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:34] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [01:07:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:35] I would think. Or just when you're emotional, you just want to speak naturally and not have to think about a second language. But sounds like for you, Lupe, that wasn't an issue.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:07:44] No, because we. Like I said he spoke Spanish, so we can.

John Dehlin [01:07:48] Okay.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:07:48] There's no problem.

John Dehlin [01:07:50] Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [01:07:50] You could speak Spanglish.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:07:52] Spanglish. Yeah. That's the way. That's the way we speak.

Gerardo Sumano [01:07:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:55] Okay, so temple marriage, and you had two children, and then a stillborn. Take us. What happens next?

Lupe Bartholomew [01:08:02] Then, like, every two years, I was, you know, I was determined to have eight kids, but. Eight kids, because I wanted to just be a mom, you know, So I love children, so I was super excited. But, you know, then So a total children I have is. That are alive are five.

John Dehlin [01:08:22] Five kids.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:08:23] Five kids.

John Dehlin [01:08:24] That's still a lot of kids.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:08:25] Still a lot of kids. I didn't know better then. I was exhausted. I was exhausted, mom. And I think many times I became inactive in the church because I was so exhausted and church callings and demandings of meetings and young women and I just felt overwhelmed. So I think I just. Sometimes I just needed a break, you know, to go to church because it was too much work, you know, five kids is a lot.

John Dehlin [01:08:52] Yeah. And what, what cities did you live in throughout that first marriage? Was it pretty much all in Miami or.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:09:00] Miami? We lived in. I think we lived in Miami for eight years and then we moved. Moved to Murray, Utah, because my. My ex husband always wanted to raise the children in Utah because he thought it was a better environment for the kids.

John Dehlin [01:09:16] So your kids were in public schools?

Lupe Bartholomew [01:09:18] I homeschool my kids when they were little.

John Dehlin [01:09:20] Oh, wow, okay. All right.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:09:25] Only when they were like kindergarten, like, you know, when they were. I think I went to school when I was seven, first grade, I think, so I never went to me. It was weird to see little tiny babies going to school. That's weird. They're too little, so. And all they need to. So I educated myself. I was googling stuff and I found a group of homeschoolers and I read everything about homeschooling and I thought, wow, it's like heavens open. What? That is so amazing. This is so beautiful. I can teach my kids at home. So. And all. All they needed to learn was the colors, the numbers. So you can do that at home. You don't need to send your kids to, to school for that.

John Dehlin [01:10:17] So I kept them and reading and reading.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:10:19] Kind of like. Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:10:20] So did they do all school homeschool?

Lupe Bartholomew [01:10:23] No, it was kind of like homeschooling. So I would get like software that they, you know, ABC mouse or that they could do. It was more like informal. But I also taught them how to read by age 4. So I remember my Claudia, my first daughter, she gave a talk in primary and she read her talk like she was in high school. She was. Because all my kids learned how to read by age four. Really well.

John Dehlin [01:10:54] Wow, that's great.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:10:56] I don't know how I did it. I just kind of like read every night and taught them, okay, this is how the, the sounds of the, you know.

Gerardo Sumano [01:11:05] Yeah.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:11:07] Letters are. And. But they learn. So.

Raising a Musical Family in Utah

John Dehlin [01:11:10] So how much exposure do you think your. Your children got to the Mormon Church when they were growing up?

Lupe Bartholomew [01:11:17] Well, a Lot. We have family home evenings. And you know, they, the young woman's and they were very involved. I mean, that's all they knew is this religion. They didn't have the exposure I had with many religions. So my kids, all they knew was the LDS Church.

Gerardo Sumano [01:11:36] And just to clarify, when you say you were inactive, you mean like you were just not going on Sundays but you were still doing everything else? Like.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:11:44] No, I just, I felt like it was too demanding, too many meetings, too many. And I felt overwhelmed, you know, being a parent, if you're a parent, you know.

Gerardo Sumano [01:11:53] Yeah.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:11:53] Of little kids, it's like this is overwhelming you. It's a 24 hour job, you know, So I just needed a break, I think. But I never lost my testimony. Yeah, yeah, I was, I was still believing everything.

John Dehlin [01:12:09] So they would have all go ahead

Gerardo Sumano [01:12:11] and teaching your kids about it too. Teaching your kids like you were inactive, but still raising your kids with the believe in Jesus.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:12:20] Yeah, they will go to church. Like, I feel bad for my, my daughter. She will go to activity days and I wouldn't go to activity days. I'm like, ah, you go. And I was just too tired, I think. And I felt bad now that I wasn't there. So she will adopt other families, say, okay, you're going to be my mom because you're going to be in my activity days. Because I didn't want to go. It was kind of flaky, I guess. But I never lost my testimony. I was still believing.

John Dehlin [01:12:50] So all your kids were blessed as babies in the Mormon Church and they all were baptized when they were eight?

Lupe Bartholomew [01:12:55] Yeah. Never a question. It's just the thing to do.

John Dehlin [01:12:58] And remind me, how many sons versus daughters of the five?

Lupe Bartholomew [01:13:01] Two sons, three daughters.

John Dehlin [01:13:02] Okay. And so your sons received the priesthood, you know, all the way along, all that stuff, Everything.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:13:08] Yeah. Okay. Just part of the, you know, part of the. My culture is. That's what, you know, we do. Yeah, that's what we do.

John Dehlin [01:13:18] And do you remember what age or year you moved to Murray? And Murray's a suburb of Salt Lake City, so it's right here south of

Lupe Bartholomew [01:13:25] Salt Lake City from Miami.

John Dehlin [01:13:27] Yeah.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:13:28] Because we live like three places in Murray, so. Okay, I, I don't remember what year was.

John Dehlin [01:13:35] That's all. Right. Around what age were you?

Lupe Bartholomew [01:13:39] I don't.

John Dehlin [01:13:41] Maybe 30s, probably. Yeah. Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [01:13:46] Because he was eight years.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:13:47] Yeah, about in the early 30s. I was. Yeah. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:13:52] All right. So you're in Utah raising your Mormon family. And how important was music in your family with your kids?

Lupe Bartholomew [01:14:08] I, we love music. Like the kids love watching musicals. And the side of my husband's ex husband's family, they, you know, the grandma used to do theater. We never got to meet her because she died before we got to meet her, but she used to do theater. And you know, the kids grew up with a lot of musicals. And like I said, my. My sister taught her child how to sing in school and I thought that was the coolest thing. So I wanted to do that with my kids. And I remember putting Santa hats on them when they were tiny and they were so cute because they were so tiny, you know, and they will go in the line and I would teach them, you know, Christmas songs and three or four part harmonies because they were good singers and they would learn quickly too. So, you know, I was thought, oh, the neighbors are making cookies and all that stuff. But you know what, I'm going to teach my children how to sing because I think that brings more joy than a plate of cookies. And so we used to go to the neighbor's house and sing Christmas songs and we'll go to the elderly homes assistant living and do shows for them. And so there was just the cutest thing. So I thought you would do shows. Yeah, just, you know, because.

John Dehlin [01:15:44] Multiple songs.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:15:45] Yeah, multiple songs. You know, I will sing, they will sing and we'll take turns as a family.

John Dehlin [01:15:50] Are there videos of that of your family singing together?

Lupe Bartholomew [01:15:52] I wish. There is a picture somewhere of the kids wearing Santa hats when they were

John Dehlin [01:15:57] little, you know, but singing.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:15:59] But yeah, but it was the joy of music that I thought it was important because it brought so much joy to others. You know, I, I think music just brings joy to. Especially when they're kids and they're the cutest kids ever.

John Dehlin [01:16:15] Yeah.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:16:17] So yeah, music was very important in our family. I remember teaching my daughter Claudia and David a little salsa number and they danced that in a wedding. I dressed them up in white and they did a Spanish Gloria Stefan song and they were so cute. But just simple stuff. I never did anything extravagant. It was just simple. Let's share our talents with others.

John Dehlin [01:16:49] Do you remember some of the songs that your children like to sing the most together? Were there some favorite songs that they love to sing or that they performed extra well?

Lupe Bartholomew [01:17:03] Just like we used to do a lot of pop music, but I don't remember what songs they love. But you know, the musicals, you know, Les Miserables or, you know, just a little bit of everything, I think.

John Dehlin [01:17:19] How about Joseph? Did you guys ever see.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:17:21] No, I didn't know about Joseph then.

John Dehlin [01:17:24] Yeah, Les Miserables is a big one. Phantom of the Opera.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:17:28] Yeah. But I think we did mostly pop when we used to sing. I have my children sing a solo. You know, pop. Pop songs or. Like my family, my sisters and I, we always organize, like I said, talent shows. So I will prepare my kids and they will prepare their children to sing in the talent show or do a dance or. So we. They grew up with that.

John Dehlin [01:17:50] Did they sing hymns at church, like on Sundays to perform in church?

Lupe Bartholomew [01:17:54] No, they didn't do that. I don't think they did that in church, but me and my sisters did.

John Dehlin [01:17:58] Okay, you would sing. So your sisters all moved close by to Murray?

Lupe Bartholomew [01:18:05] No, there's one in Georgia right now. There's one in Georgia, and there's a couple here and there in Utah.

John Dehlin [01:18:10] But when you moved to Murray, did you have sisters around?

Lupe Bartholomew [01:18:14] Nobody. It was just me. I'm the first one who moved to Utah.

John Dehlin [01:18:17] Got it.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:18:18] And then they follow me. Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [01:18:20] Okay. How long did it take for them to follow you?

Lupe Bartholomew [01:18:24] A few years after it just happened. It's not like, you know,

Gerardo Sumano [01:18:29] nice.

John Dehlin [01:18:30] And what was it like for you to move to Salt Lake City, see the Mormon Tabernacle Choir? It was great. Visit Temple Square?

Lupe Bartholomew [01:18:36] Yeah, I loved it. Yeah, I loved it.

Gerardo Sumano [01:18:39] Yeah.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:18:39] I love the whole experience, you know, the whole. The happy people here, people always smiling and, you know, serving. I love the culture. I still do.

John Dehlin [01:18:52] So moving from Miami, where lots of people around you spoke Spanish, maybe most people, to Murray, where probably almost everyone spoke English and Spanish was less spoken. Was that a culture shock for you?

Lupe Bartholomew [01:19:08] No, no, I love the. I love being in the States, so I think I spoke better English.

John Dehlin [01:19:13] Your English got better?

Lupe Bartholomew [01:19:14] Got better.

John Dehlin [01:19:15] Okay. Yeah. All right. Okay. All right. So five kids living in Murray, off and on with the church, but always believing.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:19:24] Always, always.

John Dehlin [01:19:26] Okay. What. What. What's the next part of your story you want to tell?

Lupe Bartholomew [01:19:31] What do you want to do?

John Dehlin [01:19:34] So do your kids start. Are they all. You said they were all involved in young women's and young men's. Did they plan on going to BYU or serving missions or any of those normal Mormon things?

Lupe Bartholomew [01:19:46] No, many of my kids have anxiety, so school wasn't their thing to do. I mean, they're smart kids, but they

John Dehlin [01:19:56] just weren't into school.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:19:58] Weren't too, like, oh, we're gonna go to byu or we're gonna do this. So, you know, I just believe that you can learn a lot of things from home, you know, being a homeschool. When I homeschool them, they. If you wanna learn something, just Go learn it, you know?

John Dehlin [01:20:14] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:20:14] But, yeah, you have a story in your outline about a nephew, so I wanted to ask you about that.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:20:24] Oh, yes. My nephew Willie was always talking bad things about the church. And every time we got together, he'll be saying something, oh, Joseph Smith this and that. And I would just kind of like shout him out, and I would be just so mad. And I will tell my dad, why is he always criticizing my religion? You know, I was so mad because he was always trying to say something negative about the church. I wasn't into that. It's like, I'm not gonna put out with this, so please stop. I don't want to hear it. So, yeah, I was not okay with that. So he always tried to say something bad about the church, and I was like, just stop. You know, that's not true. That's anti Mormon stuff. Just stop.

Gerardo Sumano [01:21:22] Yeah. You know, and even though you say also that you were not really into. More into church history or really learned much about it, nothing that he said really sparked, like, oh, maybe I want

Lupe Bartholomew [01:21:34] to learn more about it, because I didn't. I didn't want to hear it.

Gerardo Sumano [01:21:37] Right.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:21:37] So he kind of will talk a little bit and I'll just kind of like, leave or.

Gerardo Sumano [01:21:41] Yeah.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:21:42] Get really upset because, you know, nobody's going to be talking about my church like that, you know, because I was defending Church 100%. It's like, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:21:55] And once you're become teenagers and young adults, had you ever met anyone who is gay or lesbian? Had you ever thought about LGBTQ people? Had you ever heard the church. Church's teachings about LGBT people and what were your beliefs about being gay or lesbian or.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:22:13] Never. I. I just knew that what the prophet said, like, you know, since the day we got baptized, we were always obedient. Whatever the missionaries taught us that went is okay. That goes. And same with. About gay and lesbian. Never. Thought about it, really. It's just whatever the prophet says, it goes. So if they're against it, then we're against it.

John Dehlin [01:22:49] So as your kids were teenagers, did it ever cross your mind that one of them might be gay?

Lupe Bartholomew [01:22:56] Well, David liked the color purple, and he was in the sensitive size. Super sweet kid. And that never crossed my mind that, yeah, he was gay.

Gerardo Sumano [01:23:16] It was just that's who he is.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:23:18] Never crossed. Yeah, never crossed my mind.

John Dehlin [01:23:20] Just a sweet boy, one of the

Lupe Bartholomew [01:23:22] kids, you know, it's just. Yeah, like I said, whatever the church taught us is what we believe.

John Dehlin [01:23:30] But the church also. But the church also encourages kids to go to BYU and To serve missions and to get temple married. So.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:23:37] Yeah. Did you know we supported all that? Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:23:39] Oh, you did?

Lupe Bartholomew [01:23:40] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:23:40] Okay.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:23:41] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:23:42] Okay.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:23:43] Yeah, yeah. Two of my kids serve missions, and I was super happy about it.

John Dehlin [01:23:48] Your sons are.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:23:49] Yeah, I have. Oh, my daughter serving Texas. Speaking Spanish Mission. And then my daughter Jassy, and then David serving Chile.

John Dehlin [01:24:00] Okay, got it. Okay. Okay.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:24:03] Super proud, mama.

John Dehlin [01:24:05] Yeah, yeah. So we don't have to talk about this at all, but I imagine. David trying out for American Idol and then performing in it and all that. I mean, that's a lot. And that was all before his mission. Is there anything you want to talk about that from your experience kind of as a mom watching that happen? Was that. Was that a. Anything for you?

David Archuleta on American Idol

Lupe Bartholomew [01:24:36] No, it was a. It was a great experience to see your child on tv, you know?

John Dehlin [01:24:46] Well, like, when he was. Before that, was he in competitions? Was he singing locally in Utah? Was he well known in his high school? Was there any building reputation or goals? You know, did you ever think as he was a teenager that he would become a pop artist, you know, that kind of thing?

Lupe Bartholomew [01:25:07] Never. No, never. Because everything we did as a family, it was just for fun. He was singing junior high and people would go crazy. But David was just a super shy kid. And so he did competitions and, you know, he did 10 year old. It was his first competition, I think he did, and he won people's hearts. So. But I never, you know, we watch American Idol when, you know, they were little, but it was never the goal to have my children succeed in singing or anything else. It was just, let's do this because we love it and because we bless others. But never crossed my mind that that was going to happen. It's like. And it happened, and it's just like a total different world. It was a great experience. It's a bitter and sweet experience because of course, we never had a famous person in our family. And that was so cool to see him progressing and being on TV and wow, this is amazing. This is so cool. But at the same time, when it was hard because then our family did not have the privacy because we are introverts, we are a family of introverts. So that was very overwhelming for us. I remember that in those days, many times I felt. Invisible in the church because. My kids, my. The rest of my kids, and I disappeared. And it was all about David, which was great. I'm not saying, oh, my gosh, you know, I'm a proud mama. But in the church, it got too overwhelming because I remember somebody Asked me sometimes, hey, how's your son doing? And I said, well, I have two. Two sons. Which one are you talking about? It's like they exist. My other kids exist too. It's not just David, you know, plus

John Dehlin [01:27:51] you, plus your daughters. Yes, right.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:27:54] Yes. And it was just. It was just kind of weird because I felt that I didn't have friends. Many times people will talk to me only when David was around and he wasn't around, I was invisible. I just turned into a nobody. So that was hard to. To keep up with. Many times we'll visit the church when David was around and sacrament meeting, people will turn around, be giggling, and will take pictures of David. You know, they were like. But he always got the attention, you know, and he didn't like that because he's also an introvert. It's kind of like, hey, we're here to praise, you know, we're in sacrament meeting. We're here for a different reason than you are. You know, we're here to feel the spirit. We're here to praise God. So to me, that was sacred. And that really got me really upset that people did not respect that because even when I went to the temple with him, people will turn around and just not pay attention to the sacredness of the temple because all eyes were on David and he would just freak out about that because he couldn't be himself, you know, like just a normal person. So he couldn't enjoy even going to the temple because of that. So up to this date, I don't have many Mormon friends because I always felt like my best friend died. She was Catholic. She was my best friend for many years in Marie. She lived in Sandy, died of cancer. And then I had another best friend, but she wasn't. She left the church too. But I always wonder why I said that. I never had best friends that are Mormons. I just never felt the connection with them because I felt that I wasn't loved for who I was. It was more like, oh, you're David Archelara's mom. Oh, your son is famous. It was all about the fame. And I just felt so lost. And it was difficult. The fame was difficult for our family. And so I got a divorce because the pressure, it was too much. And my husband was gone mostly all the time because he wanted to support David. And I stay home with the kids mostly all the time, the rest of the kids. But I don't want to get deep into that in my divorce. So I'm just going to say after 20 years, I got Divorced. And then I. My husband, and in a volleyball game, you know, when I was single, oh, I was going as a single mom to the church. And it was hard because when we used to go as a family, here's my five kids, mom and dad filling up a whole bench in the church. And when I got divorced, I entered the single world, and I really did not care what people thought. I thought my commitment is with God. And I don't care what people say about not getting divorced or being a single mom, because I wasn't there for them. I was there to praise my God. So I started going to church, and many times I went by myself because divorce is hard for many families. I met my husband, my second husband, in a volleyball game. And thank goodness there's a lot of activities here in Utah. Every week there's an activity, you know, from the church. You know, you go to hikes, and you go to boating, and you go to dances. So that kept me busy. And I. I was going to the temple a lot, and I remember praying to God, saying, please bless me to find somebody that knows my situation, because I was going through a really hard time with my divorce. And I. One of those times when I was praying in the celestial room, I heard Dave. There's a voice that said, dave. And that was my husband now. It was so clear. And then the next day I went home, and then I felt a presence of love. So somebody in the room. And. It's hard to explain. When you have spiritual experiences like that, it's hard to explain. You're just in the mode of. Don't know how to explain it. But I felt a presence of love towards Dave. I don't know how to explain it, but it's a pure love towards him. So we dated for a year and a half, and. And we got married in the civil. And then I got a temple divorce. And then we got married. I got married with my present husband in the temple. Salt Lake Temple.

Divorce, Family Struggles, and Children Leaving the Church

John Dehlin [01:34:11] Was that temple divorce hard to obtain or easy to obtain?

Lupe Bartholomew [01:34:19] I think it wasn't that hard to get because you just need permission from the other person, you know, to get a divorce.

John Dehlin [01:34:31] You kind of alluded to this, but if it's okay, I want to ask, like, I know as a parent, I want every one of my kids to feel equally loved and equally valued. And you're. You're. You're pointing at yourself.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:34:45] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:34:46] Yeah. I mean, because, I mean, even the story of Cain and Abel is the story of a kid that felt favored over another kid. And then there Was rivalry.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:34:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:34:57] And then one ends up killing the other, right?

Gerardo Sumano [01:34:59] Yeah.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:34:59] It's always, you know, you try to avoid that in the kids. I'm a nanny as a profession, and it's hard to keep up with, you know, having that. They get along and they fight, and it's kind of like, so hard to make them like each other sometimes. But.

John Dehlin [01:35:19] Yeah, but then if you're. If, you know, one of your kids is on TV or you're getting invited to special things, or you're trying to be supportive of your kid because you want to support all your kids, but then in the family system, there has to be more time talking about or giving attention to or organizing around one particular kid. And then there could sometimes there could be natural feelings of jealousy or envy. Like, I wonder what it's like as a mom to try and give equal time and equal attention to all your kids when. When there's one that. That tends to be getting more time and attention. And then in the church, I imagine the church probably wanted to harness David for, like, pr, for public exposure, to be a representative of the church. And I just wonder how all that is for a mom, especially relating to you trying to care for all your kids.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:36:17] It's very hard to do because I have always told my kids, I love you unconditionally, and I don't love you more. I think they don't know who's my favorite child. Still don't know, because I try to still be there for each one of them. And that's a hard thing to do when one of them is getting more attention on tv. But it's not, you know, it wasn't his fault and that David's fault to be in, you know, I think we understood that. That it wasn't, you know, something that he didn't. And David's not a bragger. He's just very humble and just kind of like, you know, every time he will go to American Idol in a competition, he will tell me, mom, I don't think. I think I'm gonna go home. I don't think I'm gonna make it through the next round. I said, that's okay. No worries. But, you know, I. It's something you can't help and you're not trained to do how to keep up with that lifestyle. Because I. We've never been there as a family. It's kind of like, okay, here's a child is getting a lot of recognition in the church and in the public eye on tv, and here are my other kids. You Know, also at home. So I'm just trying. So I try to stay home most of the time, and that's what I did. So I think that's what we balanced. You know, you were kind of like

John Dehlin [01:37:45] a stable foundation for your kids.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:37:47] Yeah, I tried to stay home as much as I could.

John Dehlin [01:37:50] You know how you're really close to your sisters?

Lupe Bartholomew [01:37:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:37:53] Are. Do you feel like your kids are very close to each other or different? Is it different?

Lupe Bartholomew [01:37:58] It's not as adults. You know, they're. They have their differences, but some.

John Dehlin [01:38:04] Yeah.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:38:04] Get along, some mix. It's mixed. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:07] That's how most families are. Yeah. Okay.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:38:10] Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [01:38:13] So I had brought up your nephew, and you already talked about him, but you. You also talked on your outline about your sister who left the church and how it was really important for you up until pretty recently to stay really faithful in the church because that would show them that the church was true and they could still come back. Do you want to talk about that?

Lupe Bartholomew [01:38:36] Yeah. My nephew is actually my sister's son who tried to do that. She left the church years ago, and I was very upset.

John Dehlin [01:38:47] Your sister.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:38:50] My older sister, Reina, and she left the church. She also has a daughter who is lesbian, and I think they love the church also a lot. But I never understood that, why she left until it happened to me. So I was really upset that she left the church. And then my nephew was saying bad things about the church that weren't true.

Gerardo Sumano [01:39:20] Yeah.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:39:21] So talk about the commitment I wanted to show them. And also, some of my kids were leaving the church, and I just told them, you can leave the church, but I'm staying. You know, I'm just gonna remain strong because I respect their individuality. You know, as a parent, you just. You can't. I have never been a mother that will force. Well, you have to do this, you know, so it's their choice, and they're adults. They can make their own choices. It hurt me a lot to see my family leaving the church because, like, why. Why are you leaving something so precious? This is the true church, the only church on earth. You know, how can you do this? It's hard. It was hard for me to see them not have a testimony of the church anymore. And that hurt me so much. So I decided that I was just going to remain faithful. I was going to attend the temple every week, and I was going to serve in my calling 100%. And I was the music director. My. My last calling was the music director in the. In the ward. So they asked me to prepare the hymns for the whole month. So every month I have to have the hymns ready for the sacrament meeting. But I always like to go the second mile. And so I did every six months. Okay, here's the church music for the six months. And then my next step was, okay, I'm going to give them the church music for a whole year. Because I was so busy doing other things. So I thought, okay, but I just like to go the second mile and say, okay, I'm just going to get 100% and serve and show my family that they're in the wrong and I'm in the right and I'm just gonna be obedient and obey, obey, obey. I'm just gonna show them.

John Dehlin [01:41:32] Do you think the children of yours that were losing their faith in the church felt you were disappointed or felt like maybe you didn't love them quite as much?

Lupe Bartholomew [01:41:44] I never showed them that. It hurt me when I hurt that they were leaving, but I always supported them. And I said, I'm going to support you, even though inside I was dying. I was caring for my grandchild and I will take her to church with me. And I'm like, I just felt so bad now because I was like, why didn't you tell me not to take her to church? But, you know, they allowed me to be my religion respectfully. My kids were always being respectful. Just like, I respected them leaving the church. They respected my, you know, my beliefs and. But I bought a Book of Mormon, children's Book of Mormon. I was. I was teaching my grandchild how to pray. This is how we pray, you know, and she could hardly talk, but I was trying to teach her, okay, this how you pray and this how. So I was ready to teach them the gospel behind their parents back.

Gerardo Sumano [01:42:52] Yeah. As a mom, how did you experience David's mission? Was he the only your only child that served a mission?

Lupe Bartholomew [01:43:00] No, he served in Chile. My. My daughter serving Jassy, serving Texas, Spanish speaking, both of them.

Gerardo Sumano [01:43:09] So how was that for you? David decided to serve a mission and maybe pause his career. Were you happy about that?

Lupe Bartholomew [01:43:20] I was super happy that because proud.

John Dehlin [01:43:24] Right.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:43:24] Of the two missionaries is that I knew the gospel and I was happy. So I was super proud. That career did not matter, really, to me. I mean, to me it's like, whatever. Serving the church is more important than, you know, because that's who I am right now because of the two missionaries who taught me the gospel. So, yeah, it's like, career can wait. Mission is more important.

John Dehlin [01:43:51] So you were proud and excited?

Lupe Bartholomew [01:43:53] Yes, yes. Cool.

John Dehlin [01:43:59] And I'm trying to remember when. And so I'm trying to remember when David got back from his mission, how long ago that was. Do you remember how many years?

Gerardo Sumano [01:44:08] Around 2012. Thirteen, probably.

John Dehlin [01:44:11] So another 10? About 10 years ago. That was still 10 years ago. Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:44:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:16] Okay. And so. So how many years ago did you become really, really committed and dedicated to the church?

Lupe Bartholomew [01:44:27] Last year? November. Last year.

John Dehlin [01:44:29] Like two years. Two years ago.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:44:31] It was last year.

John Dehlin [01:44:33] Okay.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:44:33] 2022.

John Dehlin [01:44:34] Oh, I was just so recent.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:44:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:39] So last year was the most devout you had ever been in the church.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:44:42] Just determined. I just. You guys can leave. I'm staying.

John Dehlin [01:44:46] Okay.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:44:46] Because I was just determined, okay. To stay in the church no matter what, who left crisis. I was like, I'm not. I'm not gonna do the same. I'm gonna stay faithful.

John Dehlin [01:45:00] But that was before David came out or after.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:45:03] That was after.

John Dehlin [01:45:04] Okay, so maybe let's back up to that. Do you want. Do you want to talk about that? David?

Lupe Bartholomew [01:45:11] Yeah, there was a phone call that he did, and he. I think he was trying to. Introduced me to the whole LGBT stuff. That was new to me because I was totally against it because of.

Gerardo Sumano [01:45:30] How would he have known about your beliefs on it other than what the church taught? How would David know?

Lupe Bartholomew [01:45:38] Because I love children. I always wanted grandchildren, so I was. Can't wait to be a grandma.

John Dehlin [01:45:44] And, you know, do you remember seeing him date women and getting excited about women?

Lupe Bartholomew [01:45:49] He was dating beautiful woman. Just beautiful woman. And I love them.

John Dehlin [01:45:54] Did you ever talk to him about, why isn't this one working? Why isn't this one working? Why isn't this one working?

Lupe Bartholomew [01:46:00] Yeah, we had. We had conversations like that. But, you know.

John Dehlin [01:46:03] But you never suspected? You just figured he hasn't had the right person yet or what?

Lupe Bartholomew [01:46:07] No, I just never suspected. I know that he, you know, he will. He was trying, like, on Sundays, he will dress up in his white shirt and tie. He will never take it off. He always listened to talks constantly, you know, to conference talks or other talks. He will be constantly.

Gerardo Sumano [01:46:31] Hyper religiosity.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:46:32] Yeah. Just super obedient, trying to stay. But I never knew why. But I think he was trying to pray the gay away. But I never knew. I thought, man, this kid is going to be the next prophet, because he's so dedicated. You know, I thought for sure he was just going to be right there. Twelve apostles or something, because he was just so into the gospel, you know, going to the temple everywhere he went. And

John Dehlin [01:47:06] so.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:47:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:47:07] And when he came out with that Instagram Video and maybe we'll have Julia go. Go ahead.

Gerardo Sumano [01:47:11] I think the phone call is before the Instagram video.

John Dehlin [01:47:15] Oh, yeah. I was just gonna say he. Or I think I remember him mentioning how difficult it was to keep trying to date women.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:47:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:47:22] And how anguished he was that he just never felt what he wanted to feel. I guess. I guess you never caught on to that. You never had a sense that he was struggling.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:47:34] Nope.

John Dehlin [01:47:36] And is that just because in your family you didn't talk about those hard things?

Lupe Bartholomew [01:47:39] No, we never talk about. You know, I never suspected that this was going to happen because I knew he was going to get married in the temple with a girl. I just knew it.

John Dehlin [01:47:54] Okay.

David Coming Out and Processing His Sexuality

Lupe Bartholomew [01:47:55] Because these were amazing girls. And he was super obedient, too, to the gospel, to the teachings of the church. There's no way.

John Dehlin [01:48:04] Yeah.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:48:05] There was no other way.

John Dehlin [01:48:06] So if he was struggling, he probably would have felt afraid to talk to you about it.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:48:11] Probably. But I never, like I said, I just accept my. Because that's how I grew up. My parents love me unconditionally, and that's how I'm supposed to treat my kids. Love them unconditionally. Even though I don't agree with them, you still gotta accept them and love them. So that's. That's. That was my mentality when he. I remember him on the phone with me patiently trying to explain his situation.

John Dehlin [01:48:53] Can you remember what he says?

Lupe Bartholomew [01:48:54] I was having a hard time. He introduced me to a book with Charlie Bird, behind the mass or something. I think it's called behind under the Mass or Charlie Bird's Book. And I. I think he slowly was trying to.

John Dehlin [01:49:19] Without the mask coming out and coming into God's light.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:49:23] He gave me that book for me to read, and I ate that book. I just read it from front to back, and I was just. And I thought, wow, this is such a wonderful young man. Lgbt. You still can be LGBT and love God. I was still kind of like, trying to put my thoughts together because I thought, what, LGBT can love God too and love the commandments? So that was something new to me. So that book open. Started to open my heart to LGBT people. So he will have that conversation on the phone, very patiently trying to explain. That maybe he will just be an angel in heaven that he, you know, because he couldn't get Mary in the temple, you know, the church, the family of proclamation doesn't allow that. You know, this marriage is between a man and a woman. So he was just trying to. Teach me the world of gays and queer and you know, introduced me to that world because to me, that was new. It was hard for me to accept it, but I told him, I love you no matter what. We're still. Our family is still a family, forever family, no matter what. But I was still in the church. I was still in the church when

Gerardo Sumano [01:51:14] he was telling you he was still planning to stay in the church.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:51:20] Yeah, I was planning to stay in

John Dehlin [01:51:22] the church, but it sounds like he was just saying, I'll be celibate. I won't get married.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:51:26] Right, yeah, Yeah, I was just respecting that. And I thought, he'll come back. He'll come back, because that's what the prophet says, because that's what the family proclamation. So I thought, he'll figure it out, and he'll come back to marry a woman. So I was just still hoping that he will change his mind. And this was just kind of like him trying to figure things out. And I thought, okay, he'll figure it out, and he'll come back.

John Dehlin [01:52:05] Did you pray to Heavenly Father and ask for help or.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:52:09] Yeah, always. I was always praying, always praying for my kids, not just for David, because as a mom, again, I just don't give my just attention to one child. But this was, again, something new in my life that I have never dealt with, and I didn't know how to deal with because I wasn't educated about it. So I think David was trying to educate me into the LGBT world by giving me that book, Charlie Bird's book. And that's when I started, like, h. Interesting. This is a very interesting that LGBTQ people are. Have a heart, you know, they're just normal people like us. So

John Dehlin [01:53:04] for those who don't know Charlie Bird, we've talked about him a bit, maybe on a past episode or two, but he was the mascot for Brigham Young University. So the mascot for BYU is Cosmo the Cougar, and one of the cheerleaders becomes the mascot, and then it's secret to the entire campus who the mascot is. And Charlie Bird was Cosmo for a couple years. And BYU's cheerleading squad, dance squad, is, like, nationally known. They win national competitions. So I think Charlie, even before he came out, was probably the most popular Cosmo there had ever been, I would

Gerardo Sumano [01:53:44] say, I think because of viral video or something like that.

John Dehlin [01:53:47] Yeah, yeah. Because the Internet, when videos started going viral, they had dances involving Cosmo and the other cheerleaders that just did really well. And so then it was just a big deal when Charlie came out as gay. Right, Gerardo?

Gerardo Sumano [01:54:02] Yeah. Yeah. I would Say that it's pretty interesting what Lupe's saying and her story, because it's my understanding that when David, from what I'm saying, from what you're saying is that David called you to tell you that he was gay, that he was not gonna marry a woman, but he was planning probably to still stay in the church in some way. Right. Like, still is faithful.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:54:33] I cannot speak for him. Like I said, I cannot speak for him. So he's got his own story. But like I said, my point of view, I thought he was just trying to figure things out and that he was gonna come back to the church and marry a woman in the temple. That's what I was believing.

Gerardo Sumano [01:54:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:54:57] Back then I brought it up just

Gerardo Sumano [01:54:58] because when I came out to my. My parents, they had a similar reaction or when they, you know, it was devastating. Even though they knew I was going to stay in the church, probably for some reason, it's still devastating for Mormon parents to find out that your kid is gay. Even if you know or believe that they're going to stay in the church celibate, you still want them to get married. Because just families are so important in the church, and that's what you do, and that's how you find proclamation.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:55:31] You gotta obey what is told. You know, this is how we believe. This is our beliefs, and that's how that direction is where we go.

Gerardo Sumano [01:55:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:55:45] And the only reason I bring up Charlie is because for a long time, he was holding. Well, he was either being held up or held himself up as the example of a faithful gay Mormon. He, you know, successful podcast. And. But. But recently, I think this is public knowledge, recently, he's married. His boyfriend. Oh, engaged. Engaged. Okay, so he's not married yet.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:56:13] He's married.

John Dehlin [01:56:14] He is married. Oh, well, yeah, he's married.

Gerardo Sumano [01:56:16] I haven't followed it.

John Dehlin [01:56:18] Yeah. And. Yeah. And so, you know, when somebody plays that role as the role model, they influence a lot of people, but they're able to be that role model while, you know, while they're in that state. But it doesn't always last. And even, like, maybe Gerardo, you didn't know. I guess it's not emphasized when they're not able to maintain, in this case, the gay, faithful, Mormon celibate status when they're not able to maintain that. I guess you don't hear about that.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:56:53] I talked to Charlie when I think David was doing Joseph and Technicolor in St. George, and I talked to Charlie and I told him, I don't think David wants to come Back to church. Because I did invite David to come with me to church. I think I posted that, and Charlie told me, oh, he'll come back. You know, he'll come back. This is just a stage he's going through, but he's hurt right now, but, you know, he'll probably, you know, come back. And I was still hopeful for that, too.

John Dehlin [01:57:31] Yeah.

Lupe Bartholomew [01:57:31] So I just thought, I just need to give him some time.

John Dehlin [01:57:35] And that's what's tricky when these. Sometimes when these people with good intentions. I believe Charlie has been and is always sincere and others like him, but they give gay and LGBT members and also their parents, they give them hope that their kid, too, can follow that example. And that's what's so tricky, is that you were holding on to the hope of Charlie Bird when Charlie himself just wasn't able to keep that up. You know what I mean?

Lupe Bartholomew [01:58:06] Yeah. I was still hopeful. I remember inviting David to come to church with me, and because he's so polite and I guess he didn't want to hurt my feelings that he just went to church with me a couple times, and one time he just told me, mom, I can't. I can't go to church anymore because it hurts. He was just sitting there in sacrament meeting, listening. I don't even remember what they were talking about, but I can't imagine the pain that he was feeling sitting next to me and not feeling welcome. Well, here I am, hoping that he'll change his mind just to keep obedient. I can't imagine the pain sitting in sacrament meeting. After serving, Giving it all to the church. 200%. 200% he gave to the church. I just feel so. I feel so bad that I had to put him through that pain to go with me. I can't imagine all these LGBTQ children and adults that are hiding. I can't imagine them sitting in church and listening. I love you. We love you. But this gospel doesn't work for you. You have to change. I can't. I can't believe it's hard for me to, As a mom, your child, come to church with you and not feel accepted. But you, as a parent, you just want to be a good example and say, oh, just hang in there. The gospel, we don't have all the answers, but we'll get the answers later. And you have to sit there and take it all. You know, all this, you know, how do I make it work? You know, I can't get married in the temple. How do I make it work for me as an LGBTQ Child plus Child. How do I make this gospel work for me? Because it works for me. You know, I can get the family proclamation. Works for me, no problem. But it doesn't work for the lgbtq, so I just feel so bad. I feel so bad I had to put him through that.

John Dehlin [02:02:08] Were there times where you've tried to encourage him to. To change or to. To stay faithful, do you think?

Lupe Bartholomew [02:02:16] I will. Sometime he will call me on the phone and I will put his songs, you know, my little prayer or his church songs that he. He recorded for the church and just to remind him, look how all the good things you have done, you know, for the church.

John Dehlin [02:02:38] Yeah. With your.

Lupe Bartholomew [02:02:39] I remember singing I will go and do with my sisters at a fireside that we were invited to do, and we sang that song that David sang for the youth, especially for youth. It was the youth theme, I will go and do. And we sang that song. And I. After we sang that song, I sat down and I was in tears because I was in pain. And my sisters and my niece, they thought I was crying because I was feeling the spirit, but I wasn't feeling the spirit. I was feeling a lot of pain because David told me when he sang that song, he meant it. He meant everything. He did. All the songs that he. He did for the church, he really meant that. He felt it. And. And now I guess it's. It was painful for me to. To be on this side of. Just to be on the side not thinking like that anymore. That mentality of feeling the spirit and feeling good when you're not treat it well, you know, where you're not accepted as who you are. So I really quickly.

John Dehlin [02:04:26] That song, is it I will go, I will do the things that Lord,

Lupe Bartholomew [02:04:31] I will go and do. How is it stand for truth? So anyway, so it's. I think especially for youth, it was a song theme for the youth. Maybe it was 2020.

John Dehlin [02:04:49] Is it. Is it a song about obedience?

Lupe Bartholomew [02:04:52] Yeah, we'll go and do. Yes. Just like Nephi.

John Dehlin [02:04:55] Well, and I'm thinking just like your mom and just like you. Like your mom, you and David lived exemplary lives of unquestioning obedience. Right?

Lupe Bartholomew [02:05:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:05:13] Three generations of very faithful, obedient, believing Mormons.

Lupe Bartholomew [02:05:19] Yeah. No doubts. No doubts at all.

John Dehlin [02:05:24] And you were happy doing it?

Lupe Bartholomew [02:05:26] I was super happy.

John Dehlin [02:05:29] Yeah. Yeah. So that's just a very different mindset to have to start experiencing. And this is just last year, right?

Lupe Bartholomew [02:05:40] Yeah. Even though it feels just like it was last month, I think November is going to be a year.

John Dehlin [02:05:49] So.

Lupe Bartholomew [02:05:49] Yeah, that I left the church for good.

John Dehlin [02:05:57] So how did you go from feeling like you hoped David would return to the church to feeling sad for David and what he was going through? What were the next steps for you in terms of processing your journey?

Lupe Bartholomew [02:06:13] I felt like I was, like, hypnotized or something like that. I felt like I was breaking that mold of believing, and my shell was breaking little by little. It didn't break all at once, but I was still in believing mode. And I would watch conference, and I will hope that the leaders will speak and say, okay, now we welcome the LGBT into our community. And they're. Now they can get married in the temple, and now they can do all this things. So I was hoping for that in general conference. I was, okay, they're going to talk about it now, you know, so I was hoping that they recognized that some of them are killing themselves. And this is. I mean, this is not something to take lightly. You know, somebody is dying because they feel like they don't belong. It's like, how can you ignore that? How could you? So I was. When I received that Mama Dragons letter of many, you know, many letters of. I didn't receive it. It's David who received it.

John Dehlin [02:07:42] Can you explain who the Mama Dragons are? For those who don't know, it's an

Lupe Bartholomew [02:07:45] organization of LGBTQ mothers who support their LGBTQ children, you know, and they're there to support them.

John Dehlin [02:07:55] And they're traditionally Mormon, right?

Lupe Bartholomew [02:07:57] They're traditionally Mormon, but I think now they're growing, and they have other faiths, too, other religions now.

John Dehlin [02:08:04] And so you received what from Mama Dragons?

Lupe Bartholomew [02:08:08] It was for David. It's a heart attack. So there was a whole bunch of hearts with handwritten notes for David and say, hey, we support you. We understand. You know, we love you, and you're accepted as who you are. Just be you. And I thought, this is amazing because I cannot do this at my church because everybody, you know, has their perfect families. And here I am now with not being. I'm not just being divorced, but now I have a queer child. So, you know, I'm kind of, like, not fitting in the perfect scenario that we have as a Mormon family. But I still. I still believe that, hey, look, I'm divorced, and I have an LGBTQ child. We still can be members of this church. We still can make it, because God loves us all. That's what my belief was. So I sat in church. One day in sacrament meeting, and I looked around. I didn't see any LGBTQ people sitting around. I said, why is that am I ever going to see them sitting? I never in my, you know, 45 years being a member of the church, seen one. Now that I think about it, to be honest, right now, I just. I don't think I ever seen an LGBTQ sitting at church. If they were sitting there, they were probably hiding. So I looked around sacrament meeting, and I thought, God loves his children. God is not here. That's when I thought, God is not here because God is love. There's no way he's just saying, yep, you belong here, and, no, you don't belong here. Can you imagine if they tell, no, Latinos cannot go to church anymore because of their brown skin. How am I going to hide that? How am I going to feel like, well, I can't change. I'm Latina. I have brown skin. I know God loves me. But now you're telling me because of my brown skin, I cannot come to church and I don't deserve all the blessings. So I think my. I was breaking. I was seeing, like, a little bit of light, and I was understanding more of the LGBTQ community because not only that, but when I wrote to the bishop and told him, hey, I'm going to take. I have a faith crisis. I'm going to step away from the church. I was watching Mormon stories, which were not allowed in the old days. Were not allowed because that's anti Mormon stuff. We don't read anti Mormon stuff. We don't read what my nephew, you know, Willie, was trying to tell me bad things about the church. We don't go there because we only read church material. And that's it, you know, that's all we do is church material. So I watch, along with my husband, we watch Mormon stories, and I thought, wow, there's a Relief Society president leaving the church, and she had a different story than mine. But why? This is the reason why she left. And there's a bishop that is leaving the church and all these people that have been serving in the church and that I thought, wow, these are people like me. This is so cool that I'm not alone. You know, I'm not alone. There's other people that are opening their eyes to reality because I felt like I was in a little bubble of this perfect world, and that was my world. But now I'm kind of, like, getting out of it like a door open, and now I'm, like, seeing things differently, you know? So this is a new world to me that wasn't allowed to go before.

Lupe's Faith Crisis and Leaving the Church

John Dehlin [02:13:09] I have two. I have two questions. You mentioned as you were processing the exclusion of LGBT people within Mormonism, you mentioned if, you know, if God had told people with darker skin that they couldn't be members or be members in good standing, that would be a problem. Had you been taught growing up that Africans and African Americans, people with African descent, were excluded from the priesthood and from the temple prior to 1978, I

Lupe Bartholomew [02:13:42] heard, like I say, I never was in church history. I heard about it, but then I put it under the carpet because I thought, okay, this is not good information. But now I felt like I was embarrassed about it, but I guess nobody was talking about it. So I guess things are good now. Because now we have inclusivity.

Gerardo Sumano [02:14:07] Because now we have inclusivity. So we don't worry about the past.

Lupe Bartholomew [02:14:11] Yes and no. Because we. We still need LGBTQ plus and yeah, to being accepted. But, yeah, I heard about it, but I, Yeah, I felt. I remember feeling embarrassed about it. And, yeah, it's kind of like, okay, we're just going to keep going because they keep you so busy with callings and, you know, the new material and that you just kind of like, move on from that. That was a big problem then, but we don't have a problem with that now, so I guess we're good.

John Dehlin [02:14:49] Yeah. And then the other question I had, I could see a believing Mormon say to you, well, David's situation is different than race because nobody chooses the color of their skin, but gay people choose to be gay. It's sin. It's temptation, and we all have temptation. And David just needs to be more faithful and choose to be straight. Because being gay isn't like having dark skin. Being gay is more of a choice. As David's mother, who watched him, what would you say to someone who says that being gay is a choice and he could choose to be faithful?

Lupe Bartholomew [02:15:35] I was one of them. That's what I believed. It's your choice, his choice. He's making this choice, you know, that's why I was hoping, okay, he'll come back and he'll realize that he can choose to marry a woman. So like my dad said, he told me, until it happens to you is when you start opening your eyes. Because now that it happened to me, because I heard it before, it's kind of like, yeah, that's their choice. And I was against it. Having a child that is gay, and that opened my eyes to the gay community and to all the things that I never, ever thought to welcome in my life. I. I heard, I heard also that something about chromosomes or that are stronger I can't explain it because it's in medical terms, but it could happen that, you know, they have more female chromosomes or more than male. And anyway, there's a whole philosophy about that. But I know that, at least in my experience as a mom, I saw my child praying the gateway. I saw him praying the gay way. He couldn't. So, I

John Dehlin [02:17:15] mean, I think he tried for 32 years, right?

Lupe Bartholomew [02:17:17] Yes, he tried. He couldn't. He did his best to the point that he wanted to kill himself, too. Right. Many stories like that. Why are we going to ignore that? What is it? When do we need to wake up and realize, wait a minute. No, they can't pray the gay away, so why don't we accept them? Why don't we change the rules of, you know, and welcome them into our community? Because they want to belong in the community. They love being in the. In the church. They love serving. They love the community. So why are we going to tell them, we love you, but we don't accept who you are? It's confusing. If you love me, accept me.

John Dehlin [02:18:11] Did you ever feel as a mother? Because I imagine when David was feeling suicidal, he might not have told you because he was trying to make it work and maybe felt like he couldn't tell you. Did you ever feel like. Did you ever wish that you could have been there for him when he was feeling really dark and sad?

Lupe Bartholomew [02:18:37] Yeah. That's why I think when I was breaking my shell, when I went to sacrament meeting and I did my homework, I kind of, like, opened my world to the LGBT community. That's when I started lighting up, and I thought, oh, this is a different world that I need to accept now and that I want to embrace. So now I'm embracing that, and I'm not letting go.

Gerardo Sumano [02:19:17] On your outline, you have a story where, when you're trying to figure things out with. Because David has come out to you, you reach out to your bishop,

John Dehlin [02:19:34] and

Gerardo Sumano [02:19:34] you're trying to find answers about how you could help David and members of the church, including your bishop, always saying, you know, kind of this idea that God loves LGBT people and loves David. Do you want to talk about that? How do you experience that?

Lupe Bartholomew [02:19:55] Yeah, I was having, like, there was many nights that I sat on my bed in tears of pain because I think I was feeling David's pain when he came out. And that Instagram post, I was feeling it. All of it, all the pain. And I was kind of, like, suffocating, and I just needed to talk to someone. I needed to reach out to Someone to be heard. So I reached out to my bishop, and I went there and explained to him that how much my son was hurting. And I was hoping for an answer that the bishop. I was hoping the bishop will tell me, okay, we're gonna go talk to general authorities, and, you know, we're gonna let them know that it's not only your son, but there's thousands of them that are hurting. So I was hoping for that meeting to go like that. But the bishop, oh, he said, you know what? Just stay faithful. We don't have all the answers, and there's nothing he could do. So I thought, I have no voice. I'm no one. I can't reach out to the prophet. I can't reach out to the 12 apostles and tell them, look. But I'm sure they're aware. I thought they didn't know. So that's why I was trying to reach out as a mom through my bishop, so the bishop can pass the word around to the general authorities and tell them, look, this is what's going on with the LGBT community. You know, please help them. Please do something about it. So I was hoping for that, but then I realized I'm no one. They don't know who I am. They don't care. So that was the end. Just went home and try to keep faithful until I start reading more. I read about the prophet Joseph Smith and the many versions of the first vision. I was in shock. And then it makes sense to me. This is why this doesn't work. Because Joseph Smith was not a prophet, a real prophet like I thought he was. You know, the behind the things that I never knew. I never knew that the golden plates. That nobody ever saw the golden plates, and that they were taken to heaven, but nobody saw. Emma didn't see the plates either. I never knew that Emma, she was, you know, she never knew that Joseph Smith married other woman. Because like I said before, I never was into church history. So now I'm digging into a little bit of the church history, and I'm in shock.

John Dehlin [02:23:30] So you didn't know Joseph Smith was a polygamist?

Lupe Bartholomew [02:23:33] I heard things, but I thought, oh, that's anti Mormon stuff. So I'm not going there. So I never went there, but it made sense. Now that all these things are happening, and then that the first vision, it was just an in thing in those days because there was a lot of. I guess a lot of churches, a lot of priests were having visions. Sorry, I'm moving my hands too much.

John Dehlin [02:24:02] No, you're not.

Lupe Bartholomew [02:24:03] That's great, but I'm going to try to keep my hands here. But they were having similar stories of seeing angels and all this stuff that I thought this is similar to Joseph Smith's story. So he's copying all this stuff. And anyway, the story didn't come out until 1830 ish or something like that.

John Dehlin [02:24:32] 1832 was the first time he ever really told that story that we know of.

Lupe Bartholomew [02:24:38] So that's, that's when I said, that's it. That's why this is not the true church, because the Joseph Smith story, it wasn't true. And that's when I started just going down the hill. Do, do, do, do that. I thought sitting with my bishop. I pictured myself going to a temple interview with the bishop because it was my goal to go to the temple every week and them asking me questions about, you know, do you know if Joseph Smith is a prophet? Would you support Joseph Smith as a prophet of God? I pictured myself saying, nope many times. So I didn't just jump in and you know, say, hey, here's my temple recommend. I don't want it. I picture myself trying to pass all those questions and I couldn't, I couldn't get there. It's like there's no way Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. So that's when I decided I'm just gonna. I just want my records removed from the church because I don't support these beliefs anymore. It's just everything is just kind of like a lie and a fantasy and I've been lied for 45 years. I don't want anything to do with these beliefs anymore. It doesn't work for me. It doesn't work for my family. It doesn't work for. It's never going to work for me. So I just decided to give up my membership.

John Dehlin [02:26:24] How long ago was that?

Lupe Bartholomew [02:26:26] That was last year. I think it was around that time. November, December. I'm not sure exactly the date.

John Dehlin [02:26:35] So you resigned your membership from the church?

Lupe Bartholomew [02:26:37] I resigned because I couldn't pass the questions anymore of going to the temple. It's like I just can't do it.

John Dehlin [02:26:49] I want to talk about that decision, but before I do. Did you study the Book of Mormon itself? The story, the Lamanites, the DNA? Did you research the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon as a history versus not as a history during this time?

Lupe Bartholomew [02:27:06] No. It was all about the feeling. I'm reading oh ay Nephi came from good parents. I thought, oh, that feels so good. So I just read it. But I never like I said I never was into researching about history.

John Dehlin [02:27:20] No, what I mean is, once you were learning about Joseph Smith and the polygamy and the first vision, did you study about the Book of Mormon and problems with the Book of Mormon once you started studying about church history?

Lupe Bartholomew [02:27:34] No. No, because all I did was listen to your programs, Mormon stories and people explaining things and I thought, wow, these people are brilliant. You know, they know dates and they know this doesn't, you know, they were not the animals, they weren't horses in the Book of Mormon on those dates. And I thought, wow, I would have never figured that on my own. But you know, people have done their research, you know, so. And it's true. Everything they say is true. So.

John Dehlin [02:28:03] So eventually you did learn that the Book of Mormon probably isn't a historical document.

Lupe Bartholomew [02:28:09] It's just not true. It's not historical, it doesn't match the dates and the animals, and it's just a made up story. And how disappointed for me to find that out, that I've been lied. They lied to me and to everyone but me personally. I felt angry and I felt very disappointed and I just want everybody to know the truth. It's like I wish everybody will open their ears and open their minds and really search the truth, but I think a lot of people stay in the church because they like the environment, they like the activities and they feel comfortable, they like the community, but I just can't do that. I can't support it.

John Dehlin [02:29:16] And I wonder if you felt or feel conflicted because it seems like it was so good for your mother, it was so good for your early family, your sisters, all the singing, all the happy memories. You come to the United States, you get, you know, you learn another language, you, you end up getting married, you're having five kids and, you know, I, I just would assume that so much good has been brought into your life and into your family's life because of the Mormon Church, that you would also feel conflicted, that on the one hand you feel angry that you were lied to and deceived, but on the other hand, so much good, so many happy memories, so much happiness and so much good came from it. Were you conflicted about that?

Lupe Bartholomew [02:30:13] I was very conflicted, I think. I didn't think about the happy memories because I was so upset and so mad that they lied to me that everything else kind of like, oh, okay, I didn't even think about that because I thought for 45 years I believed something that wasn't true. Why, why didn't you tell me the Truth. Even though my nephew tried to tell me, my nephew tried to tell me and I did not listen to him, it's like, nope. And now, now I'm trying to convert people to the truth. It's kind of the opposite. But they don't want to listen.

John Dehlin [02:30:55] Once a missionary, always a missionary.

Gerardo Sumano [02:31:00] That reminds me to the faith. I don't know if John, if you want to talk about it, just really quick, the faith crisis study that you did a while ago and how for people who experience a faith crisis feeling betrayed or lied to, kind of over read all their positive experiences in the church.

John Dehlin [02:31:21] Yeah, yeah, yeah. When we did that study for Marlon Jensen and church headquarters with Greg Prince and Hans Mattson back in the mid to late night, you know, 2000s. Yeah, that's what we found. We surveyed over, I don't know, three or four thousand people who had left the church and yeah, Joseph Smith was a problem and the Book of Mormon was a problem and the Book of Abraham was a problem and the racism and the homophobia were problems and the sexism. But mostly they just felt angry that they had been deceived and lied to and that they had made all those big decisions in their lives based on incorrect information that the church knew was incorrect but they were taught the incorrect information anyway. Yeah, yeah. Feeling betrayed.

Lupe Bartholomew [02:32:15] Yeah, I think that's me. It's hard to explain to like when I did that post about me giving up my membership of the church. I was just going to post it for my family because I don't have a lot of friends on Facebook. So I only made it public because one of my mother in law asked me to make it public so she could share it. So that's the only reason why I did it because I was just going to reach out to my family, you know, my husband's family and share with them why I left and because I didn't want to feel awkward being on a family meeting and people talking about callings in church and me feeling uncomfortable. So I thought I want to just come out and tell them, you know, that I left so it didn't feel so awkward. But I never knew it was going to more than 20 people that I wanted to reach. It went to hundreds and hundreds and the messages and the support that I got was amazing. And how many people were in my same situation. I felt at home and I felt so glad I did that because I felt like, oh, there's so many like me, you know, we need to speak up. I want to speak up. I don't want to I don't want to be quiet. I want to tell the whole wide world. Look, because this is not true. But if you want to stay, you can stay. Because a lot of people is. It's a good thing in their lives, and I understand that. But I don't want to live in a fantasy world. I want to live what's real. And my marriage has never been better since then because I was so mean to my husband on Sundays. And I used to tell them that you cannot watch TV and you cannot do this, and we need to be in church at this time. We need to. I was so strict that now I am just. Let's go for bike rides. Let's go. Oh, let's listen to this music. It's great. So my marriage has improved because I left. The church was ten times better. Ten times better. Wow. Because I'm not like, you got to do that. You got to do that. Because I was in obedient, you know, obedient mode. This is what we got to do. This is what we do on Sundays, you know? This is what we do. And now I just. We're good.

John Dehlin [02:35:09] Yeah. And Margi and I really. What's that? You go to Costco.

Lupe Bartholomew [02:35:14] Yeah, let's go to Costco. Sam's.

John Dehlin [02:35:16] It's a little less busy. Costco's a little less busy on Sunday.

Lupe Bartholomew [02:35:18] No, they're still busy.

John Dehlin [02:35:20] Too many of us told me they're mad at me because I ruined Sunday. Costco's in Utah.

Lupe Bartholomew [02:35:25] Oh, why is that? What happened?

John Dehlin [02:35:27] I guess they're saying that Mormon stories has caused too many Utah Mormons to leave the church. So it used to be fun to go golfing or to go to Costco on Sunday. Cause it was so empty. And now I've ruined Costco.

Lupe Bartholomew [02:35:39] Yes, you did.

John Dehlin [02:35:40] I've ruined. I don't. That's not why I did Mormon stories. But whatever. We're gonna. I just. I just. We're gonna share a link to your Facebook post. You're coming out. You know, you said hundreds. There's 10,000 likes on that post. 1.6 thousand comments, 3.1 thousand shares, and who knows how many, many views. I mean, clearly, hundreds of thousands of views. Right, Roberto?

Gerardo Sumano [02:36:11] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:36:11] So, I mean, it was a. And I. I saw it, and I was.

Lupe Bartholomew [02:36:15] You know, I don't understand why. Because I just, you know, I'm not good with words. So that's why I. It took me a while to put that together. Because I'm not good with words. You can see I'm not good with words. I was amazed that. Why do people. This is a simple story that I put out there for my family, but it was amazing to see how many people connected, so.

John Dehlin [02:36:44] Yeah.

Lupe Bartholomew [02:36:44] So I'm glad it helped, you know, help. So many.

John Dehlin [02:36:49] So many people are suffering in silence. So many people think they're alone. So many people feel betrayed and have left, and then so many people have LGBTQ friends or family. Like, there's a lot of people that care about these things that were moved, and it's. It's so courageous, and it's more courageous when you're somewhat of a public figure. Sometimes public figures just keep it quiet because they. They know it'll be upsetting to so many people or they're afraid of what might happen. So there was a level of courage, I think, in what you did.

Lupe Bartholomew [02:37:21] I just. I didn't feel. I just felt that I needed to be honest because I want to live an honest life. I like honesty, so I. I'm not afraid of people knowing the truth.

John Dehlin [02:37:44] Was it difficult? I imagine, at least at the time, you still had believing children, and you still had believing sisters, maybe, and your mom. What was it like with your believing family members for you to come out so publicly?

Lupe Bartholomew [02:38:01] That's so amazing, really. I have an amazing family. Even though they don't agree with me, they still. We still hang out. We still have family parties. But I heard so many people not talking to, you know, their parents or their children because they leave the church. So it ends up. Instead of uniting the church, uniting the families, it separates them, because now you don't believe the same as they do. So it's kind of complicated. But I was lucky that my family still loves me and we still hang out. You know, we still talk to each other, so we're good. I got lucky. I have a great family.

John Dehlin [02:38:45] Yeah. Because a lot of times it's like, why do you have to criticize the church? And why are you becoming anti Mormon? And people. Believers get upset when you simply just speak your truth or bear your testimony in a different direction.

Lupe Bartholomew [02:38:57] Yeah, it's sad what happens.

John Dehlin [02:38:59] But that didn't happen to you.

Lupe Bartholomew [02:39:01] No, it didn't happen to me, but it doesn't mean that they agree with me because they still have a strong testimony. So we try to respect. Respect each other's beliefs. Even when we don't like it, we don't like it. I don't like it, but I wish they'll come to my side someday. But if they're happy, you know, I'm okay with that.

Healing, Reflection, and Life After Mormonism

John Dehlin [02:39:24] Was there a point Where? To David or to your nephew or anyone that you kind of said I'm sorry or anything I did say.

Lupe Bartholomew [02:39:32] What did you tell me? What did you get mad at me and tell me mom or Dia. You know, it's like, come on, wake up.

John Dehlin [02:39:41] That's what you said to your nephew?

Gerardo Sumano [02:39:42] Yeah.

Lupe Bartholomew [02:39:43] No, I haven't talked to him, but I always tell my sister, please tell. Tell Willie that I'm sorry. You know, I'm so sorry that I did not listen to him. So that's all I can do.

John Dehlin [02:39:56] What about David?

Lupe Bartholomew [02:39:57] I apologize, too. Say, why did you say, mom, I need you, mom, wake up? But they were so respectful. My kids have been so respectful.

John Dehlin [02:40:10] I guess there was a daughter, too, right? Who. Even before David, right?

Lupe Bartholomew [02:40:15] Yeah. There's a couple of them who left, so they have their own story. So I'm not gonna say anything.

John Dehlin [02:40:19] Right, but you did.

Lupe Bartholomew [02:40:22] But they left, and that was painful for me to see them leave, just like it's painful for me now to see the family that are still in.

Gerardo Sumano [02:40:31] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:40:33] But with the ones who have left, I guess you're able to.

Lupe Bartholomew [02:40:35] No, we're good.

John Dehlin [02:40:36] Yeah. Yeah, that's. I bet that's nice.

Lupe Bartholomew [02:40:38] Let's bring more people.

John Dehlin [02:40:40] Oh, but I bet it's nice to not have those differences with them.

Lupe Bartholomew [02:40:43] Yeah. It's beautiful to just speak up and be comfortable with each other and, you know, say things that is not going to offend the other person. It's just wonderful.

Gerardo Sumano [02:40:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:40:56] Wow. So beautiful. And so if somebody says you can't be happy, I mean, you were really happy as a Mormon.

Lupe Bartholomew [02:41:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:41:03] And you felt the spirit and you felt really good. And then there's always this teaching that wickedness never was happiness and that leaving the church is wicked. Like, the worst people in Mormon theology are the ones who believed and then left. They, like, you know, they potentially can go to the worst place in heaven because they once believed and then stopped. So for anyone who. For a Mormon who's been taught that there's no happiness outside of the church, that you can't be happy if you leave the church, or that it's fake happiness, what would you say to that?

Lupe Bartholomew [02:41:38] No, it's not true. My fear was, okay, I'm not going to have the spirit with me anymore. But I realized that I am 10 times happier now than I ever was. So really, the thing that the faith transition is what's painful. So that's when people tell you, oh, you don't have the spirit. So see what causes all this pain because you left the Church. But I was mad. I was. I was sad. I was feeling all this emotion not because I did not have the spirit. It's because I was in pain of all the lies that I believed. And that was. When you see somebody through a faith transition is because they're in pain. And you have to go through those emotions first until you make it into the light again, you know, Because I feel like I was digging deep in the waters, and then little by little, I was just going up and up and up, and I was like, whoa, okay, here I am, and I'm okay, and I'm super happy. And yes, I can make decisions, and yes, I still have spiritual experiences. And yes, like, even yesterday, I felt so happy. I gave money to a homeless person because I don't pay tithing anymore. You know, that money is going to. I decide what to do with that money because the first thing I did was to give my tithing out of my paycheck. The first thing I did is like, I gotta pay my tithing now. I don't pay Titan. I give it to whoever needs it. It's like, it's beautiful. I get to think on my own and I get to make decisions. Me and my husband make decisions. And it's just a wonderful life. I just can't. I couldn't be happier. I couldn't be happier. And the only sad thing is that I have stopped praying because now I have to reconstruct who God is again. I don't know who God is anymore. So that's another journey. I have to figure it out, you know, where is my God? But I know he's a loving person, a loving God. I don't know how to call him Her. I don't know where I'm at now that all my beliefs are just. Now I have to start all over again. And I'm still trying to figure out where do I go? What do I think? How do I restart my belief about a loving God or a God? And now I understand why people go atheist and people go, you know, and I understand why they do that. Before I thought, oh, they're mean, they're not good people.

John Dehlin [02:44:44] But

Lupe Bartholomew [02:44:47] I'm still trying to figure that out. Prayer, how to pray and who to pray. So I'm in that journey. But I'm super happy.

John Dehlin [02:44:58] So I guess, I guess same with beliefs in Jesus. It sounds like you're not sure anymore.

Lupe Bartholomew [02:45:04] I'm not sure anymore. Because if the Book of Mormon was true, is the Bible true now? That's my question. Is the Bible a Made up book, too, so I haven't gone there. It's been too much for me to figure that out right now is like, I don't know what to believe, but I do want to believe in a superior, you know, being. So I'm still in that journey.

John Dehlin [02:45:33] So do you feel like a hole inside or do you feel pretty full and complete?

Lupe Bartholomew [02:45:37] I am full.

John Dehlin [02:45:38] You do?

Lupe Bartholomew [02:45:38] I am full. I'm just. I'm just me. I just love who I am. I am grateful for this journey. It's been very difficult, but I'm super happy where I'm at. No regrets. No regrets.

John Dehlin [02:45:59] What's it been like to see David and all your children, I guess, living an authentic life as themselves instead of as.

Lupe Bartholomew [02:46:10] It's beautiful.

John Dehlin [02:46:11] Yeah.

Lupe Bartholomew [02:46:12] It's nothing more beautiful than to be yourself and to be accepted for who you are. Nobody's pointing the finger, you know, nobody's saying, well, you need to do that. You are this. And we don't do that. We're just good, super happy, super happy family.

Gerardo Sumano [02:46:33] Yeah. It's awesome. Love it.

John Dehlin [02:46:37] Well. Well, I just, you know, Gerardo and Margi and I and all of us here are just so grateful you're willing to come on the show. You're such a delightful shining light. You're such a positive and fun and spunky and thoughtful person. And. And. And it's always hard to speak up. So when somebody is as thoughtful as you is willing to speak up, we're just all so really grateful. And. Yeah. Are there any final messages you want to leave with people? Final words of hope or encouragement to anyone?

Lupe Bartholomew [02:47:27] I just. I would love to see. The message I will give is for families of any religion to not put the religion first, but put your family first. You know, let's unite, let's love each other, and let's live in authenticity. So that's my message I would love to give. Just be who you are and love each other, but put your family first.

John Dehlin [02:48:02] Family are more important than beliefs, you're saying?

Lupe Bartholomew [02:48:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:48:06] Beautiful. All right. Well, Lupe Bartholomew, it has been such a pleasure to hear your Mormon story. We've had 1500 people on the live stream. It's a very large live stream, so we thank everyone who's joined us on Facebook or on YouTube. Feel free to like us like this episode, subscribe to the podcast if you feel comfortable, but we're really grateful for everyone who has joined us or will join us. We couldn't do it without you, and lots of people are sending their love to you saying, thank you that you're delightful, that you're gracious, that you're amazing.

Lupe Bartholomew [02:48:45] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:48:45] I hope you'll go back. I hope you'll go back maybe and just watch the string of comments because so many people feel inspired and grateful for what you've shared today.

Lupe Bartholomew [02:48:58] Thank you. Thanks to all of them for their support too.

John Dehlin [02:49:02] Yeah.

Lupe Bartholomew [02:49:02] Thank you. Thank you, guys.

John Dehlin [02:49:04] Yeah. And Gerardo, we couldn't do this without you, so thanks for helping to make this happen.

Gerardo Sumano [02:49:08] Yeah. Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:49:09] It's good, Good to have you here.

Gerardo Sumano [02:49:11] Yeah. Thanks, John.

John Dehlin [02:49:12] And we're gonna. We're gonna maybe pause and then record a Spanish only interview to have you tell your story in Spanish.

Lupe Bartholomew [02:49:22] Okay. Bueno.

John Dehlin [02:49:23] And Gerardo's gonna. Gerardo's gonna take control and I'll be the support.

Lupe Bartholomew [02:49:28] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:49:28] And we'll. We'll share it with Los Latinos del Mundo.

Lupe Bartholomew [02:49:32] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:49:34] Thank you.

Lupe Bartholomew [02:49:35] Thank you so much.

John Dehlin [02:49:35] Yeah, my pleasure. I appreciate it. And finally, just, we couldn't do this podcasts without the support of our donors. So if you're new to this podcast, if you value the content and if you want to see it continue, you know, we always are grateful. If you can go to MormonStories.org, click on that little donate button at the top. Become a monthly donor. Those contributions, we're nonprofit, we're transparent in our finances, and we rely on those contributions to pay our staff and to keep the lights on and, and to keep the quality hopefully high for you. So if you can become a supporter, that's great. All other ways you can support us again is by sharing this episode widely, commenting, liking, subscribing to the YouTube channel or to the Facebook channel and emailing us with your feedback or comments or questions. You can email us@mormonstoriesmail.com and of course, we always love to have other good stories to tell. So if, you know, if you or someone you know would be an amazing guest like Lupe, please reach out and let us know. All right, Lupe.

Lupe Bartholomew [02:50:52] All right.

John Dehlin [02:50:53] Thanks so much for coming on. Good luck.

Lupe Bartholomew [02:50:54] Thank you. Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:50:56] Stay in touch. We'll see you soon.

Lupe Bartholomew [02:50:57] Okay, we will. Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:50:58] All right. Thanks again, Gerardo, and thanks, everyone. We'll see y' all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.