Introduction and Welcome

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Foreign.

John Larsen [00:00:07] Welcome back to another edition of the Sunstone podcast. I'm your host, John Larsen. Sometimes on this podcast, we get to talk to interesting people. Sometimes we get to talk to really intelligent people, and sometimes we get to talk to people who are a little, you know, a little out there I can't quite figure out or put my finger on. Tonight, we get to talk to all three. I'm sitting across from none other than the man who cannot be classified, John De Lin.

John Dehlin [00:00:37] Hey, John, how are you? What an intro. Thank you.

John Larsen [00:00:41] Thanks for coming down. You know, John, we were chatting the other day, and I think this is the fourth time that we've done an interview.

John Dehlin [00:00:52] Is that right?

John Larsen [00:00:52] I think we did1 in 2010, which would have been not long after we started Mormon expression. About six months after, and I think we did one about 2012 or so, we caught up again. And then after Mormon expression retired you gracefully, you know, we went on stage. That was a riotous time. I think the video is still out there. That was 2014. Can you believe that's been four or five years ago?

John Dehlin [00:01:19] No. Welcome back, by the way.

John Larsen [00:01:21] Well, thanks. I don't know that I'm fully back, but I'm here. You know, I know I disappeared for a lot of people, but for me, I never went anywhere. And I was joking with John, kind of that. My job is to check John Dehlin. And I've always been fascinated by you, sometimes annoyed by you, more often impressed by you. And I've always been fascinated by the man that you are as opposed to the man that people always think you are. I think you have a big problem that all celebrities have in that people form opinions of you, and you're constantly battling against John Dehlin and the 44 different John Dehlins that are out there.

John Dehlin [00:02:06] Makes me sound like I have multiple personality disorder.

John Larsen [00:02:09] Well, I mean, I guess we all do. I mean, in linguistics, they call that code shifting. It's something we all do when we're talking to different people, especially different classes of people, different cultures. You actually will modify the way you speak. And it goes so far as if somebody, like, from New England starts talking to somebody from the south, they will. It's almost imperceptibly, but with equipment you can measure, they will start elongating their. They will start stretching out the time of their vowels. So if two people with different accents of English are speaking together, they will actually modify their accents to kind of meet a little bit in the middle, almost imperceptibly. So when you're in a position like you are, and you're dealing with ex Mormons and Mormons and believing Mormons, it's really difficult to not reflect the aspects of your personality that jive with those people. I think that's normal and healthy.

John Dehlin [00:03:02] Yeah. It's fascinating. And I also. I have to say, just at the intro, that you've played an important role in my journey as well, for at least a couple reasons. One is, you know, when. When you came out with Mormon Expression, I had retired Mormon stories.

John Larsen [00:03:21] You had retired. And I've said before, that was one of the reasons I did it. No. No one was in the space. It went quiet.

John Dehlin [00:03:26] Yeah. And. And I. I'm. You may or may not know, and others may or may not care, but it's because I was applying to grad school at the time, and Margi would only let me apply to PhD programs in Utah. And so I applied to three PhD programs at BYU, and I wanted to maximize my chances of getting in.

John Larsen [00:03:45] I didn't know that.

John Dehlin [00:03:46] Yeah. And I ended up getting into all three BYU programs I applied to. And then I went to Utah State anyway. But. But when I. And my. And my original advisor at Utah State would not allow me to have a podcast at first, and so I stayed out for that first year. But when Mormon Expression came on, I got so. I don't want to say jealous or envious, but you made me miss podcasting so much, and you did such a good job that it was like. It was like this huge gravitational pull to come back. I'm just like, that John's too awesome Mormon expressions is too awesome. I miss this too much. I have to get back. And so you were a crucial part of me starting up again.

John Larsen [00:04:32] Well, everybody around me. Everybody's an exaggeration, but felt like it always wanted to frame out through the years like our podcasts were in competition, which is something I could never understand why people wanted to do that. Because clearly, when you talk to the people they were listening to both, or if they gravitated more towards you, they listened to you. And I never saw it as a competition. I always see it as the more voices are out there, the better. And that when you start building the market, as it were, a podcast, like. Like having more podcasts actually increases the listenership. So. So I never saw our endeavors as being competitive.

John Dehlin [00:05:13] Yeah.

John Larsen [00:05:13] I mean, okay, let's. Let's drop the. There's the competition that you always want to do the best job you can.

John Dehlin [00:05:20] Yeah.

John Larsen [00:05:21] And you look around and see what other people are doing, who they're talking to what their approach is. So there was a competitive nature that way.

John Dehlin [00:05:27] Yeah, for sure. And we can get into this. There were times where I felt fear in relation to what you were doing, and we can talk about that. But I wanted to say that another area where you were central to my path is that the interview that I did with you in 2012 ended up being transcribed by the folks at FAIR.

John Larsen's Personal Background and Story

John Larsen [00:05:49] And when I was sent to my

John Dehlin [00:05:51] stake president and used as evidence in my disciplinary council, that specific interview I did with you was the pillar of my Stig prep, Brian King's case against me for my excommunication.

John Larsen [00:06:04] Yes. I'm still. If I do a deep search for myself, like, again, Alexis Nexus, there are. I show up in footnotes of FAIR articles where they're attacking you and they're using me. It always makes me giggle because if they think that I'm somehow an ally in their assault on you, they're greatly mistaken. And I think they're taking that particular interview out of context. You came down to the Lehigh house at that time and you met Zilfa,

John Dehlin [00:06:30] and that was super fun.

John Larsen [00:06:32] Yeah. Yeah. We'll have to bring Zilfa on here at some time. She. She still remains a great friend, of course, my co parent, my partner in parenting our children. So.

John Dehlin [00:06:42] But. But can I just say one last thing about you, if it's okay?

John Larsen [00:06:46] Sure, sure.

John Dehlin [00:06:46] So when. When I. So I. I was afraid of you and I was afraid of Mormon expression for many years, if I'm just being totally honest. And we can get into that, but it doesn't matter for the sake of the story. So when you, when it was announced that you were coming back, I had. I experienced those feelings of fear again. Right. Because I think. I think. I don't know where I've gotten sort of just like a setting for trauma where I'm always scared about potential threats. And when it was announced that you were coming back on, I experienced those feelings of fear. Like, oh my gosh, here comes. Here comes another attack. You know, it's on its way. And. And so I try to just pretend that this podcast wasn't. Wasn't existing because I was scared. And a good friend of mine named Christian, I don't know if you know Christian, he lives in Provo. He texts me one night and he says, you've got to listen to John Larsen's recent speech that he gave in Phoenix. And I literally, like, turned off my phone. Like, I did, like, I didn't even dignify his text with an answer. Because I was so upset that a friend of mine would like tell me to listen to John Larsen on Mormon expression. Not because I didn't deeply respect you, but it was just that fear response. And so. But after a few days or maybe a week, I'm like, well, Christian's a good guy, and I'll give it a chance, you know? And I think by that time, a couple other people had recommended. And I just have to tell whoever's out there who hasn't listened, go listen to John Larsen's talk that he gave in Phoenix about leaving the church but not leaving alone or something like that. Is that the title? Yeah. But I was deeply moved by that. Deeply moved, deeply impressed, and not surprised that it was brilliant. But it moved me to the point where I feel like I want to try and. Well, you. Your vision for having us try and figure out ways to build more bridges and try and pursue more constructive paths. I mean, that's always been a part of what I've wanted to do, but it's easy to get sidetracked in the drama of the week. And I just want you to know it's really inspired me, and I don't know what it means for me, but I really appreciated that. And that's one of the reasons I felt comfortable coming on. Because you're preaching the love, baby. You're preaching the love well, and I love it.

John Larsen [00:09:36] Well, thanks. I mean, and I want to say, first of all, thanks for the. Thanks for the vulnerability. I mean, you know, one of the things, as you well know, and I'll explain to people out there, when you. When you get into a seat in a position like this, in a place of the transition, the faith transition, people losing their faith, people modifying their faith, people leaving their religious transition. It is a toxic, heady mix of all sorts of emotions. And when I use the word toxic, I don't use that to shame people. It's a very difficult space, John. I had to take years off, and you have not. So what happens to John, more than anybody I've experienced it to some extent people like Lindsay do, is you find yourself swimming in a world of everybody's pain. There are emails, and I've told stories about this, I'm sure you have, that have just destroyed me. There are. And there's emails I've received or phone calls I've received that have buoyed me up. You know, I told the story on stage before about the guy who told me that he was. He was. I'll break up again. He was in his truck with his gun. And then he started listening to me and he kept laughing so he didn't pull the trigger. And John, I know, I know there have been many, countless people who you have literally saved. And, you know, you talk about that threat when you're putting yourself out here emotionally, you leave yourself vulnerable. There are people who take advantage of that vulnerability. And as human beings, when somebody punches you in a vulnerable spot, there's not very many reactions, but what your genes are telling you to do is fight back. And I know there's times that I have that I regret. I know there's times that you have that you regret, but oftentimes these come from this very, very difficult emotional space we all find yourself. And John, I don't know how you. You keep doing it. It's hard.

John Dehlin [00:11:41] Yeah, it's super. I mean, it's weird because we have a lot of privilege and there's. There are some really good things about this opportunity that we're really blessed. We're really fortunate to be able to, you know, to. To have a shot at contributing to constructive solutions for our culture. So it's. I, I always have this pull to not want to really go into the hard stuff because feels like some privileged guys like bemoaning their. Their first world problems when a lot of people have a lot of worse problems.

John Larsen [00:12:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:19] Having said that, it's excruciating and brutal, and I don't know if anyone could really fully understand it unless they sat in the chair and.

John Larsen [00:12:28] Absolutely, there's. There's times it's. It's so richly rewarding and there's so many people that, that you touch. There's so many lives, and I'm talking about you, you specifically. There's so many lives that you have made better. But every celebrity, if you hear them talk about it, will say, you know, you can have a hundred positives and that one negative sits with you. And, and especially the ones that are true, the criticisms that are correct, that they, they cut you right to the bone. And there's enough people, you know, you have an. You have thousands of hours of you. If somebody wants to hurt John De Lin, it ain't hard. You just got to listen and you're going to hit. Hit all the soft spots and they're going to know. Right. And they will not most. Not even just put a tiny, A tiny number. You know, if you count up the number of mass shootings there have been in the last 10 years and look at that versus world population. It's a statistical error, but it's something that causes so much pain and suffering for all of us. You know, you can. You can pretty well rest assured that the majority of, you know, it's. People are never going to get a machine gun and start gunning down people, but when they do, it hurts. And you put yourself in a place where you're vulnerable to that. And I think it's that when you talk about, like, when I come on or whatever, you're always vulnerable, and you are doubly vulnerable because you did the thing that I was always scared to do, which is hang your livelihood on this.

John Dehlin [00:13:54] Yeah.

John Larsen [00:13:55] Which makes you doubly vulnerable in a way. Anyway. I don't. I don't mean that critically or anything. It's just it. It is what it is.

John Dehlin [00:14:01] Yeah. Yeah. That was a weird and a complicated kind of thing. And it's. It's made things. It's made. It's made things complicated in different ways because, I mean, nobody would get into this business to make money.

John Larsen [00:14:15] There's no money. There's no money.

John Dehlin [00:14:17] And for years. Yeah, and for years, of course, there wasn't any. But. But when I, When I went back to grad school and I was looking at $10, $15 an hour to be a TA for some professor and then I thought, or I could go back and do the podcast, my listeners generously stepped up and said, we'll. We'll put you through grad school. And that's what ended up happening. And then that the support, you know, grew to the place where I'm like, whoa. I actually could do this full time. And I have some since 2015. But it's complicated because it's hard to run a non profit. It's. I didn't, I never wanted to run a nonprofit. I didn't get into this to, to be the executive director of a nonprofit. And I wish I didn't have to run a nonprofit, but I. You have to run a nonprofit if you're going to take donations. And that adds a level. And Lindsay understands this because Sunstone's always been fighting for its survival. It's super hard to run a nonprofit, and I never wanted to do it, but I have to do it. And that adds a whole extra layer of complexity.

John Larsen [00:15:25] Absolutely. It is really hard. And you're right. They're always teetering on the edge. And you have to. Lindsey does it too. You have to just walk around knowing, couple of donors change their mind and suddenly you're hosed and you can't make payroll and. And it's a big Stressor. You know, I think sometimes saying, you know, oh, you know, one of my regrets over the years is I've always had a job and a family and other things. So there's very few podcasts that I ever felt like I put enough time and effort into, you know, and there's a few that I've done that I've actually put a lot of effort. And I'll hear feedback from people and saying, oh, why don't you do more like this one. Like, if only you knew, you know, that took 80 hours.

John Dehlin [00:16:08] The transoceanic vessel one. That is. That is the famous. That is the golden standard for all podcasts.

John Larsen [00:16:15] That is the one that gets the most credit. I think there were some early ones where we deconstructed some things. I'm still proud of the Doctrine and Covenants series where we would pull those things apart. And they took a lot of research. Transoceanic Vessel one, you know, it was just. The people on it were great. It was just hitting its stride. And it's one of those things that once you see, you're like, oh, of

John Dehlin [00:16:39] course, I remember your DNC 132 one. That was amazing. That was amazing.

John Larsen [00:16:45] Well, I think we did good work

John Dehlin [00:16:47] in pulling apart, like, and word of wisdom, too.

John Larsen [00:16:49] The word of Wisdom, the different first vision ones. But they take research, they take work. And one of my frustrations with the community is we just. If you add up everybody, all the nonprofits in this space, we don't have the budget of a single ward in Payson.

John Dehlin [00:17:08] Yeah.

John Larsen [00:17:09] You know, and the money is there and it could go. But, you know, Mormonism tweaks us. It messes with our heads. And this is the message I keep talking about, especially ex Mormons. When they're first out, it's hard for them to acknowledge how much Mormonism still drives like that teaching about priestcraft. And you shouldn't have money, which is the biggest Coup intellectual like 180 the Church ever did is convincing people that the priests aren't making any money while making a lot of money. Yeah, but. But, you know, people take that attitude and they're like, well, I don't want to pay John. That's priestcraft. You know, which. Which is. Which is. Which is baloney. And we all work really hard to be as transparent as possible. You know, I did nonprofit nothing. Like, I was depending on you or Lindsay with our. But, you know, people want like all this kind of fiscal transparency which you want to give, but that takes money. You have to have accountants like Create those reports, and you want to be as open and forthcoming with everybody. But then you run into situations where. And I know you've had these, and I know I've had them, where people who have worked with you or work for you go and say things that are patently untrue and that you can prove them wrong. But to do so enters into a fray. So you have all the. You're trying to get your message across, and you're trying to run a business, and you're trying to deal with normal human emotions, and it's exhausting.

John Dehlin [00:18:32] Yeah.

Motivations for Continuing This Work

John Larsen [00:18:33] So why are you still doing this, John?

John Dehlin [00:18:36] Well, at its very core, I started this because I experienced the pain and the trauma of the personal and familial of going through a faith crisis. And I felt like there needed to be more resources of support, and that's never changed. I. When I was at Microsoft, I was getting paid over $200,000 a year for a job that made me want to end my life. Not literally, but I just. I was selling boxes of software for very wealthy billionaires, and it sounded glamorous. I probably visited 40 countries during my time at Microsoft. I knew Bill Gates and I worked with Steve Ballmer, and I worked at the highest levels of the company, but it wasn't fulfilling work. It wasn't satisfying. So I knew that if I couldn't find real meaningful joy at one of the best companies in the world to work for, getting paid a fifth of a million dollars every year, if that wasn't going to make me happy, I knew I had to find something that was going to fulfill me. So. So finding a cause and then being able to do it for a living is. I view other than Margi as, like, the second biggest gift of my life. Because every day I get to wake up and say, how do I make a big difference? And I get to do it as my main source of income. So that's why I keep doing it. In spite of all the pain, the complexity, the risk, I am doing what I love. And I know that I'm helping people because every day someone comes up to me and tells me, hey, you're John Dehlin. You changed my life. So it's so rewarding that it makes my pain threshold quite high. But it could end tomorrow. That's the thing. I have to wake up and go to bed each day realizing that it could all end tomorrow.

John Larsen [00:20:40] It could, but the church keeps creating new grist for the mill, you know, as it were. Now, you. You characterize a faith crisis. I would Challenge you, John, I've watched over the years, you haven't gone through one faith crisis, you've gone through multiple.

John Dehlin [00:20:55] Yeah, it's. Yeah, it's a journey, isn't it?

John Larsen [00:20:57] And it's really interesting because you can become very empathetic to one point of view, and sometimes this is a human condition. It makes you a little bit hostile to the other because we have warring camps oftentimes in this space that we're in. And I've watched you sort of saddle up to one and then saddle up to another. And I do not mean that as a criticism at all, because they each have their own, like, very compelling arguments. And it's just funny how easy it is for us to slide into that, vilifying the other, you know, and, you know, which. Which leads to the question, what do you want? More open stories, Mormon stories? What do you want to be? What. What. What is it? Because you've tried on a lot of different hats over the years. What do you want? What do you want? What's the. What would be the win scenario for John Dehlin?

John Dehlin [00:21:51] Are you talking about my personal faith journey, or are you talking about the ambitions of the me or the Open Stories Foundation?

John Larsen [00:21:58] Can you separate them? Are they different in your mind? Are they. Are you and Mormons, an open story is different?

John Dehlin [00:22:05] I don't know. Probably. There's probably not a lot of difference at this point.

John Larsen [00:22:10] Do you want them to be. And I don't mean that as a criticism. Open Stories is there to support the mission, the voice, and your voice is giving voice to other people. That's always been one of your talents, and your is. You, of course, are a very smart guy, and there's a lot of things compelling about you, but you have a gift for pushing your personality down and letting everybody tell their own story. But there's a story there, too.

John Dehlin [00:22:37] Yeah. So if I had to talk about my personal ambitions or what I hope the Open Stories foundation and Mormon Stories are about at a core level. You know, there's a lot of people who, you know, orthodox Mormons, apologists, who think that my goal is to destroy the church or to take people out of the church.

John Larsen [00:22:58] They think you're a wolf in sheep's

John Dehlin [00:22:59] clothing or just a wolf in wolf's clothing. And that's my desire has never been to harm the church or to take people out of it. I can say that 100% in clear conscience. So what. What have I wanted to do? I. If I had a magic wand, everyone who wanted to know everything about the Church, everything, its truthfulness, its history, and the way that it harms people. Everyone would know, have all the information so that it could be fully consensual. Because what's really important to me, first and foremost, is that people know what they're a part of. They know what they're giving their life to, they know what they're giving their money to, and they know they have a full knowledge of the thing that they're basing their life upon. And so there's an educational component to everything we've always done, whether it's the podcast or whatever else, where I just want to educate people, and stories and emotion just happen to be a really effective hook to educate people when they don't necessarily know they want to be educated.

John Larsen [00:24:16] Well, religion is not about describing the world as it is. It was at one time, but science and other things have taken that mantle. So religion all across the board has become something about emotional space. I don't mean that as a criticism at all, that healthy religions address the emotional component where, you know, science and atheism and logic and those do not. Science is just as happy like solving the problem of AIDS as it is creating the next A bomb.

John Dehlin [00:24:49] Yeah. And I'm actually cool with that. And I've been studying Richard Rohrer because of Dan Witherspoon and Janice Bengler and several other people. Can't stop talking about him. And he's this ex, I don't know, Franciscan monk who was like a monk for 40 or 50 years. And he's done a lot of work on faith crises and transition and Catholicism. And I'm totally cool with religion being transrational, you know, being extra rational. It's not about logic, it's not about reason. I think the problem comes when the religion overreaches and claims to know things that it doesn't or claims to be based on things that aren't true. For me, the. The most ethical religion is one that knows its place and that doesn't overreach in terms of what it claims to know or be based upon.

John Larsen [00:25:37] And.

John Dehlin [00:25:37] And maybe that.

John Larsen [00:25:38] Are there any of those.

John Dehlin [00:25:39] It takes the magic out of it. Well, yeah, but they're all dying. I mean, Episcopalians, Lutherans, Methodists, you know, take any progressive. The community of Christ. Any progressive religion says that the scientific realm is different from the spiritual realm. Yes. Evolution, yes. Super Old Earth. No. There's no one true church. No. We don't know for sure if there's a God. But let's try and help. You have spiritual or emotional experiences. That are transcendent because that's its own space that will enrich your life. But where the Mormon Church got into trouble, like most churches, is all the earth. The Bible requires a 6,000 year Earth and Adam and Eve must have been the first humans then. And this is the one true church because that's the history that we were, that we inherited and that's what someone interpreted at one point. And, and it's when religions overreach that then people start buying into a worldview that isn't based in reality, it's based on truly false teachings. And I think that can become dangerous. And I like the idea of leaving room for mysticism, for mystery, for wonder, for flow, for the tingling things that makes the hair stand up on your arms. I'm all for that, but I just want that system to be self aware and rooted as much in reality as possible and then branch off from there into the unknown. But don't be making claims that are falsifiable, that are face value wrong. And that's where our church got in trouble.

John Larsen [00:27:17] Well, in my view they all get in trouble that way. Religions start as a radical movement that are taken on by disenfranchised always. The only thing you could challenge me is some of them, you know, we don't know about the beginnings of Hinduism, we don't know about the beginnings of Judaism, but anyone that we can see and then, so it's radical, dynamic, thoughtful people. And religions tend to be very scientifically minded for the science at the time they were created. And matter of fact, that's how you can trace their beginnings. You can say, oh well, they believe this about the world. Well that means they're here. But then they attract the button down type, the type who are rule keepers. And then over the next hundreds, thousands of years they calcify until they don't serve their original purpose. It's, it's, it's a joke that's used all the time. But the founders of any religion would not be at home in that religion, nor were they ever a part of that religion.

John Dehlin [00:28:11] Once it's mature.

Mormonism's Trajectory and Faith Transitions

John Larsen [00:28:12] Yeah, once it's matured. So I see Mormonism going that same, that same thing. Mormonism has the unfortunate distinction of having been invented after the printing press.

John Dehlin [00:28:21] Right.

John Larsen [00:28:22] So, so it's easier for us to

John Dehlin [00:28:24] all point to their, and they took good records, unfortunately. Yeah.

John Larsen [00:28:29] And, and, and that's where, that's where, you know, people, the reformers. I've always kind of attacked the reformers, which got me in trouble and in trouble with you sometimes. But the, The. The. The reformers, there's nothing to reform to that.

John Dehlin [00:28:41] That's.

John Larsen [00:28:41] That's the problem that Mormonism has.

John Dehlin [00:28:43] So. So that's right. That's right.

John Larsen [00:28:45] So. So I think there's, you know, these people trying to resolve, which we've all been there, we've all been in the space. We're trying to make it work. I. They're. They're tilting windmills. Yeah, but the difference between me now and, say, me six years ago is that's okay. Just don't hurt anybody.

John Dehlin [00:29:04] Yeah. Yeah. And that's. That's something Richard Rohr talks about. He talks about a first half of life and a second half of life. And just to make it really brief, he says the first half of life is to create your soul, your entity, your body, your life into a container. In other words, get a certain level. Get a moral code, get a certain level of education, get a certain level of socioeconomic viability and get an ego, meaning a certain sense that you have talents and abilities and a reason to exist in the world, which then sets you up for what we would call a faith crisis, which is. Wait a minute. That system that got me to where I am, which was a pretty good education, a pretty good life, a pretty good standard of living compared to, you know, let's say, other people that didn't have that. Pretty good community, a pretty good set of friends. Now all of a sudden, everything that was foundational that got me to where I am turns out to not be fully true. Santa isn't real, but that's a universal experience. Orthodox Catholics have it, Orthodox Jews have it. Orthodox Muslims have it, if they're awake and if they're paying attention. But what Richard Rohr says is that's as it should be. Because once you've spent the first half of your life creating that container of a soul or of a life, then you spend the second half of your life filling it with who you are and who you want to be. And it was the religion that brought you to the point where. Or you have the luxury. And I think I've heard you describe a faith crisis as a luxury or as a privilege.

John Larsen [00:30:39] It is.

John Dehlin [00:30:41] If you are in a faith crisis, it means you have enough education, enough intelligence, enough money, enough viability where you can risk losing your family, risk losing your friendships, risk losing your community, but you're okay with that, because the upside of whatever social or personal benefits you might derive from the faith crisis outweigh any of the risks. And. And most of the people, many of the people that never get into the faith crisis, if you look at their psychological profile, their socioeconomic profile, their business profile, their family profile, whatever it is, you could probably do the math through some formula and understand exactly why they don't have the privilege or the luxury of going through it.

John Larsen [00:31:21] Right? And our psychology is so complex that it doesn't even allow us to think those things. And mature organizations. You know, if I were a Catholic and I started talking to my priest about faith crisis, he would work with me until he recognized that I was above his pay grade, that I was experiencing things emotionally that he didn't empathize with. And then what he would do is say, let me have you talk to Brother Mike. He's been a Franciscan for 30 years. He really, you know, and then they'll move me over here and then I'll be introduced to, well, you're not an Opus DEI Catholic. Here's the liberal Catholics and these great big churches have been around for thousands of years. There are a thousand ways to Catholic. But the church has created the situation it has today by this overemphasis on apostasy and by forcing people out. I think you're right. There's a lot of people you can predict they'll stay in because the hooks are in and the cost is too great to leave. But Mormonism sort of amped it up and made the stakes so high that people have to take the gamble and people who normally wouldn't. So, you know, when we criticize ex Mormons, and I do a lot, but I should say ex Mormons are the offspring of the church. Whatever you want to criticize ex Mormons for doing, they were created by the church. If ex Mormons have a problem with alcohol, they don't. We've talked about that. But that is a product of the word of wisdom, the way the church introduces it. You know what I'm saying?

John Dehlin [00:32:48] Just like the fundamentalists are a product of Mormonism. Right?

John Larsen [00:32:50] We all are. And that's part of my message today that might be a little bit different from a few years ago, is saying we're all part of this bigger family. And I know my message saying there's parts of me that are basically Mormon does not resonate with some ex Mormons. But you know what, John? I. I have always received the most pushback from. From ex Mormons. Matter of fact, Mormons just leave me alone. I never. I never get emails or angry messages from Mormons. Always ex Mormons.

John Dehlin [00:33:19] That's. You know, we talked about. You know, I was. When I was honest at the beginning of this episode about the fear that I had when you were coming on. It's because my. The hardest part about this by far is not somebody saying my. My interviews are too long. It's not somebody saying, I'm done.

John Larsen [00:33:37] Which they are.

John Dehlin [00:33:38] Yeah, of course. It's not somebody saying that I'm not a good interviewer. It's not somebody saying I'm ugly. And it's not apologists that. That write things about me. And it's not the church, and it's not how I'm treating the community. It's members of our ex Mormon community who, for whatever reason, feel like we have to attack each other. And not just. And I'm not just talking, like, polite critiques or sincere disagreements.

John Larsen [00:34:13] There's a great documentary I recommend to you, John, and anybody else. It's on Netflix right now. It's about the Flat Earthers. Have you seen it yet?

John Dehlin [00:34:19] Not yet. So what's it called?

John Larsen [00:34:21] Oh, I need to look it up here. But you go through the same thing, and it dawned on, you know, these are people highly into conspiracy theories, but you get to see the community start dividing, and then they start accusing each other of being involved, you know, with the CIA and different things. And it resonated so much with me, John, about the community, that if you frame. And I know this is gonna. This is gonna upset people. If you frame both ex Mormonism and Mormonism as two conspiracy theories, it makes a lot of sense the way people put their loyalties into ideas. And you know what? I get beat up for all the time. I continue to fight with people when they call Joseph Smith a pedophile.

John Dehlin [00:35:03] Right.

John Larsen [00:35:04] And they do not like it when I say there's no evidence that Joseph Smith was a pedophile. We need to stop calling him a pedophile. They get so angry. But because. Because that's one of the tenets of especially fresh ex Mormonism, that Joseph Smith was this and he was that and the other Joseph Smith, he was a complicated cat. And it's really hard to say he was all one thing or another, and by extension, we all are that way. But. But. But you're right. And. And. And I want to add something to what you're saying. Not only has there been infighting, we're all guilty.

John Dehlin [00:35:37] Yeah.

John Larsen [00:35:37] Every one of us.

John Dehlin [00:35:38] Sure.

John Larsen [00:35:38] And there's times when I can get triggered. There's times when you can get triggered. There's times when Lindsay can get triggered, and there's times when, God bless her, Lindsay talks me off the edge. It hasn't happened for a long time because I'm a little bit more Zen now than I used to be about some of this stuff. But that came from taking some time off. That's where, John, are you getting the support that you need? You have a good therapist, right?

John Dehlin [00:36:06] I do have some coaches and therapists, yeah. My family. This is gonna sound like hyperbole. We have spent several thousand dollars a year over the past few years on therapists and coaches. I'm talking me personally, Margi personally, Margi and I together, each of my children individually, some of my children together to work out their own problems. And we've had many coaching and therapy sessions with all or all of, with most or all of our family together. And I would not be here today if it weren't for healers out there, therapists and coaches that we pay a lot of money for to keep us, to help us get healthier and more sane.

John Larsen [00:36:56] Well, as I started associating with more therapists, and I know you took this same sort of arc because you run into all this pain and, you know, you're pointing out these problems in the gospel doctrine or in the history, and then you start surfacing people who are in real trauma. So you and I both took a path where we started engaging more and more therapists, trying to, trying to help solve this problem. And it's one of the things I learned from hanging around therapists quite a bit is every good therapist has a therapist. Matter of fact, if there's, if there's one, there should be a few questions you ask a therapist the first time you see them ask. I'm literally asking if they're in therapy, if they're not in therapy, because the work is so difficult. They're taking so much on their shoulders that they have to have an outlet.

John Dehlin [00:37:36] But can I maybe add to that? It's not just that healers need healers or whatever helpers need help. It's that I have trauma, I have broken things, I have personal dysfunction. And I think we all do, or at least everyone I've ever known does.

John Larsen [00:37:57] Oh, we all do.

John Dehlin [00:37:58] And in some sense, who would be crazy enough to be an activist or who would be crazy enough to want to be a public figure? I'm not being self effacing. There, there's, there's something wrong with somebody, probably, if they feel like they want to do that. Like, why would you want, number one, to, to be a public figure? Number two, why would you think you had anything interesting to say at all? Why would you have the delusion that you could actually make a difference. And how would you know if you were to make a positive or negative difference? How would you really know? There's all sorts of like complexity to just the impulse to want to be a public figure or a healer for that matter. Like, whose life is really so tight that they're like, yeah, I've got a lot to help somebody. I certainly don't. The more I've sat in the chair as a psychologist, the more I've realized my own inadequacies.

John Larsen [00:38:50] Right, right.

John Dehlin [00:38:51] And so it's not just that I need a therapist to help me with the difficulties of trying to help other people. It's that I come broken with serious dysfunctions from my parents, from my upbringing, from what I've experienced, from my experiences with the church, from my experiences in my own personal decisions. And I've had to start looking at those and trying to reconcile them and heal them. It's that too. That's all I'm saying. I wish it were just to support me.

John Larsen [00:39:26] And those questions that you brought up, they go through your head every day and especially every night when you're laying in bed. Every, every single day. It's, you know, you know, the. What's, what's the saying by, I think it was Bertrand Russell. You know, the problem in this world is that, is that, you know, basically weak minded people are so sure of themselves and the wise are so full of doubt.

John Dehlin [00:39:50] Right? Yep, yep.

John Larsen [00:39:52] And I don't know the. And I've known you long enough, John, to know that you do this and I know that I do it. The amount of distress and thought and concern about every word we've put out there. But I know that when I listen to Sean Hannity, there's not a guy there that's not a guy who has a lot of self reflection. Right. But you can tell the public spokespeople who have problems with self reflection or not a problem, it makes them better because they sound pained all the time. You know, they sound like they're struggling with things. And I think that's one of the things that makes you so listenable is because even though you're at that position, I can still feel and I can hear in your voice that self effacing humility which is a mix of, obviously you're an alpha figure, you know how to go after things. I've watched you, you know how to command a room. Boy, this guy has. You guys have to see John Dehlin and watch the crowd swoon because because you, you. You have a natural ability to make people feel listened to and valued. And I, I believe after these years of being around you, that's, that's sincere. I don't, I don't think you can feel fake that. Hi, I'm Lindsay Anson park, executive director of the Sunstone Education Foundation. I want to invite you to our weekly Sunstone firesides. Do you remember those firesides that they used to have?

The History and Role of Community Spaces

John Dehlin [00:41:25] Dating all the way back to the 1930s when the LDS Church would hold

John Larsen [00:41:29] monthly meetings to discuss really important gospel topics?

John Dehlin [00:41:33] Those meetings became known endearingly as firesides.

John Larsen [00:41:38] In January of 2019, Sunstone launched a new podcast that incorporates a nod to these firesides.

John Dehlin [00:41:44] Featuring a weekly evening podcast, it will

John Larsen [00:41:47] display a range of hosts, all women, as they chat with diverse guests from across the Mormon spectrum.

John Dehlin [00:41:53] The hosts are all female identifying that

John Larsen [00:41:56] represent a broad perspective in Mormonism. These podcasts will be released every Thursday evening so you can have that fireside.

John Dehlin [00:42:02] Feel free feel brought right into your living room. So grab a cup of cocoa or

John Larsen [00:42:05] coffee, since at Sunstone there is more

John Dehlin [00:42:07] than one way to Mormon.

John Larsen [00:42:09] Snuggle up under a blanket and listen to incredible interviews by and from incredible people. You can support women and their work in Mormon studies, which is desperately needed

John Dehlin [00:42:19] by donating@sunstone.org or becoming a monthly subscriber.

John Larsen [00:42:23] Go to sunstone.org and click on the

John Dehlin [00:42:25] podcast tab for more info.

John Larsen [00:42:27] We hope you enjoy it as much as we do.

John Dehlin [00:42:35] I think about who am I to be leading anybody? Who am I to give anyone advice on anything? Who am I to give advice about marriage? Who am I to give voice advice about parenting? Who am I to try and be a part of the solution? Like, I'm torn between feeling experienced and confident in the skills and the training that I developed and. And being eternally tormented at how inadequate I feel for the position. And that's just absolutely true. It's really hard. The heart. One of the hardest parts about doing what I do is feeling worthy to. To. To. To still do it. Because I could easily get swallowed in the feelings of inadequacy because I am fully inadequate. Like, I help a little bit, but at the end of the day, these are huge problems and everything, Everything ends up sounding glib. Everything is glib. We're just moving our mouths and saying words. Are we really making a difference? Are we making things better? It's hard to know. And that's part of what you're saying. I think in this new iteration of your comeback, let's really look as post Mormons about what is a constructive. What is a constructive. What are we doing? What is our goal? Are we just shaking our fist? Are we barking at a train? Are we actually moving the needle? Are we making things better? Are we ruining relationships? Are we making the organization worse than it would be otherwise? And anyone who's honest and sincere is not gonna have endless optimism and self confidence. They're gonna be racked with the eternal self doubt and, and second guessing because it's hard to know whether you're making a difference.

John Larsen [00:44:24] And if you're in that space of second guessing and doubt. And like every human being, you're riding these curves up and down and you're in a low spot and somebody kicks you in a soft spot right there. You're a human being and you can sometimes lash out in ways that you'll regret.

John Dehlin [00:44:39] I do it all the time, but it's always out of fear. You know, it's just. It's fear. It's fear, you know, is someone going to hurt me? Is someone going to hurt my family? Is someone going to hurt what we've built? Is someone, you know, going to hurt the organization that keeps things going? It's just always fear. It's. It's you, you. It's weird. It's weird that you know people. Let's just say the average person that walks up to me and says, you're John de Lynn, oh my gosh, can I have taken my picture with you? To them, they see somebody important or powerful or special or whatever it is,

John Larsen [00:45:17] it's whatever they've constructed.

John Dehlin [00:45:18] Yeah. Or you would say whatever the, whatever led you to say. Whatever big intro you said right. When you're sitting over here. And you know this too, you're just this super weak, vulnerable person that could be taken out any moment that you're walking down the street and you wonder, what is there? Is a car going to try and run me over? Is someone gonna shoot me at night when I'm turning off the lights? Like, is someone going to file some lawsuit or make some claim or attack you in a way to where it's all over? Your reputation's destroyed. What you've built, what you fought to build, it gets destroyed in a minute. We live in a world where people can say whatever they want to on the Internet, myself included. And, and that can, that can destroy lives. And it makes you feel every day like you're in a war zone, like, where's the next hand grenade gonna come and will I survive it? And so it, it leads to neurotic. It can lead to a neurotic personality.

John Larsen [00:46:22] It does. And if you, if you watch celebrities, what, what you'll see is, is one of two behavior patterns emerging. They disappear, they surround themselves with that. They really push back against that world or it starts to modify their personality. It is really hard to sit in a position where you are in particular, where there are people who view you as a prophet. They wouldn't say they do, but what I'm saying is they're taking that paradigm of the alpha patriarchal leader and they're just imposing that on open stories. And the, the problem with that is there are people who hate you, John Dehlin, because other people treat you like they were treating the authority. And you recognize that and it's a trap you're in. How do you cast off that mantle?

John Dehlin [00:47:17] The way that, that plays out in my mind is I represent the problem. I am a white, straight, middle, upper middle class male, and I, you know, that's who's been oppressing everyone, not just in Mormonism, but who's been oppressing mankind for centuries. Me. You know, my. What I represent men.

John Larsen [00:47:43] Men on this planet are the problem.

John Dehlin [00:47:46] And, and what are you, are you kidding or what do you, what do you mean? Are you serious?

John Larsen [00:47:51] I'm dead serious.

John Dehlin [00:47:52] Yeah. I mean, okay.

John Larsen [00:47:53] And white men in particular, they're violent, they're aggressive, they're greedy. Yeah. And I'm of course a white, middle class, you know, 40 something male. I fit right in that, in that demographic. And I'm disgusted by my demographic.

John Dehlin [00:48:08] Yeah.

John Larsen [00:48:10] I'm ashamed at the imperialistic world that my people have imposed, you know, and

John Dehlin [00:48:19] so just to complete that thought. And so when I think about the role I'm playing, I have to deal with the thought because a lot of my enemies have come from feminists or from people of color or others, or at least the people that have been some of the most vicious attackers. And I realize that whether or not I've misspoken, which I have, whether or not I've acted badly at times, which I have just my mere white, tall, male, straight privilege makes, represents not only the problem in Mormonism, not only the problem for this decade or this century and a half, but for millennia. And it makes me wonder, should I even be in the space? I don't think it helps for me to disappear. I think I need to do my best to include women. I've tried, you know, supported Gina Colvin, supported Natasha over Parker, supported Margi. I have done my best. I supported Christie Money like I've done My best to try and support female voices. I've done my best to try and fight for LGBT rights. I've done my best to try and support people of color. And it'll never be good enough, because there's always more that can be done.

Flaws, Self-Doubt, and the Human Condition

John Larsen [00:49:42] Well, this speaks to the heart of where I'm at right now. I look at our world, and it's so flawed, and we as human beings are so flawed, and what we have to do. I don't like the concept of forgiveness. I don't believe it exists. Matter of fact, I said this to my brother the other day, a brother who. I don't want to get too into it, but we've been estranged and we've been reconnecting lately.

John Dehlin [00:50:12] It's a beautiful story.

John Larsen [00:50:13] I've been following it on Facebook, and I. I was saying this that I don't believe in the concept of forgiveness. I believe in two things, really. I believe we need to try to make whole as much as we can, the people that we cause to suffer. And I believe that we need to shed things. I've talked in several podcasts about the anger and, you know, say, well, what's different about you, John, now, than before? And I say, not much, except I've decided that anger is a poison.

John Dehlin [00:50:47] Yeah.

John Larsen [00:50:47] And there's a lot of righteous indignation that happens in this space when you observe the suffering that people have, when you go through your own exit. The. The. Our culture wants outrage, and it wants anger, and. And they feel good. The time that. That. That you get that. That adrenaline.

John Dehlin [00:51:06] Anger makes you feel power.

John Larsen [00:51:07] It makes you feel powerful, but it's a toxic poison. And where I am now, it's like I just. Can we get. Can we get past that? Can we recognize that we're all human beings? You know, John, this goes back to where we started. I think there's only. Only one reason that you've ever been envious of me. And I think you're exaggerating a little bit to be kind to me, but there's only one reason, and I know this in part because you've told me so. It's not like I'm completely making this up. I was always free. Like, I didn't. My income wasn't tied to the podcast. I wasn't trying to maintain membership in the church. I wasn't trying to Please, because I've always felt bad for you as you try to keep these. These people who want to maintain their relationship in the church and people who have rejected the church. You have rightfully so Tried to speak to both camps because you have rightfully recognized two. Dude, you're the same people. You're just at different places. But I always had the freedom to not have to worry about that. And that freedom can be easy to exploit where you didn't have that chance. But I think we have to translate that into vulnerability. And if you take everything that we're saying in order for our society to progress, in order for us to move away from a patriarchal structure which is very oriented towards winner takes all and winner gets winnowed down. And winnow down. Winnow down. You know what I try to tell people? Yes, the Mormon patriarchy is real, but living in it as a man is not a piece of cake. There are winners and losers at every round, but we have to try to live in this space where we make ourselves very vulnerable. And I'm not talking about you and I. And I'm talking to everybody. And that's tough to say. These are. These are my mistakes. But I think you've been envious, because I've been able to do that a little bit more because of where I was, not because I was a different personality than you, but I just had that privilege.

John Dehlin [00:53:03] Let me be clear. I've been envious of you because you're brilliant, well, really talented and very interesting. And that. And two things about that. One was the fear and insecurity that. That could topple the work I was trying to do. But then. But then also feelings of insecurity like, oh, my gosh, I'm not that good. Which drives me to try and do better, which is why I welcome you in the space. One of many reasons why I welcome you in the space. But it's also a fear that if you got too powerful, you could hurt me. And. And that's something that I want to kind of circle back with about feminists, LGBT people, people of color, all the different areas of diversity there. There. It's. It's so hard to scrape out. You know, I'm here at Sunstone. You know, I'm like, oh, I hear Sunstone's getting their offices renovated. Oh, they're going to have. In my mind, I'm like, oh, well, now Sunstone's gonna have this opulent, ornate, beautiful facility. And I'm hearing it's just like the old Sunstone building. They're gonna make it nicer. But Sunstone and Lindsay, I'm sure, are just fighting for their existence every day.

John Larsen [00:54:17] Like I am.

John Dehlin [00:54:18] Right. And when you're in that mentality as a culture, As a subculture, Open Stories foundation is scraping for its survival, and in some ways, in some ways not. But it could end any year. It could literally end this year. Everyone's just struggling to try and survive. And what's really hard is to. And we've learned this through patriarchy. So what you do is you get possessive, you get controlling, you get defensive, and you try and protect your territory. And so these differences that we have, whether it's gender, sex based, race based, you know, privilege based, age based, socioeconomic based, education based, everybody is so scared that they're going to be annihilated, that they're going to expire, that they either are defensive and protective or isolating, or they're attacking either overtly or behind the scenes through back channels to try and survive. Because it's so hard. Think about it, like how many. There's, there's signature books, which I hear well, which is always kind of. It's solidly doing its thing, but it's not growing and it's. You know, it dies when, when George Smith dies unless he leaves some huge endowment to them. You know what I mean? Like, it's. It's surviving because of the annual donations of George Smith and for no other reason. Sunstone has always been struggling to survive. And then there's Open Stories Foundation Dialogue is on the ropes. Right. Right. Mormon History association is only propped up by orthodox believing Mormons. Right. And how many other organizations are there?

John Larsen [00:56:07] Well, if I look at some of the nonprofits I've known about over the years, a lot of them are mothballed. They're shuttered. They go through the same thing. You know, like people ask me why I took down Mormon Expression site because it got so badly hacked that it was without spending $20,000 to. And I was talking to Jeff Ricks, the post Mormon site, which is great for a lot of years, same thing. It's mothballed because it got hacked and we don't have the money. And I will tell you what you were just hinting at. Every organization out there that is not financed by the church is only surviving because one or two rich dudes are keeping them up. I'm not saying that to undermine the small donations we get from different people, because those are meaningful, but it's hard to. To. We have to acknowledge that these organizations are all teetering. And it's been teetering because it's been a frustration that I've expressed. One of the things that I have gone to bat for you over and over again is you get attack for making money. And like you've pointed out before, and it's absolutely true, with your education, with your intelligence, with your expertise, you are grossly underpaid for. For what you could do.

John Dehlin [00:57:19] So is Lindsay.

John Larsen [00:57:21] Indeed. And, and, but, but, but there's this. There's this. This jealousy. I think it really comes from Mormonism. Well, I'd have to get paid.

John Dehlin [00:57:30] Yeah,

John Larsen [00:57:33] Sunstone does pay me. I'm not an employee. I'm a contractor. So. So. So. And Lindsay's been really good about this, about trying to make sure that people get. Get paid, but that we don't. We're not making any money off this. You know, any of us could go get a job at McDonald's and make more money per hour than we're doing in this space. But I say this to. Because I'm not afraid anymore to tell people. Listen, I know there's. There's. There's thousands of you listening to this, and we need your pennies that there is a moral responsibility for you to support the organizations that you believe in. That may not be me. It may not be you. It may. But. But you've got to do something. I regret every day. And I don't. Do. I don't. Still don't. I tend to give more of my time. I don't give as much money as I gave to the church. I haven't. Not since the day I walked out.

John Dehlin [00:58:22] Can I. Can I say yes and please. It's not just that these organizations need financial support, although they absolutely do. When I think about. When I think about the. The needle being moved. Right. What's moved the needle? What's moved the needle is. Were Eugene England. What moved the needle was Peggy Fletcher Stack and Albert Peck. What moved the needle was Dan Witherspoon. What moved the needle was Sandra and Gerald Tanner. What moved the needle, Juanita Brooks. Was Juanita Brooks. Jeremy Runnels. Lindsey Hansen Park. Kate Kelly. You. John Larsen.

Learning from Other Faith Transitions

John Larsen [00:59:07] Steve Benson. Yeah, there's all these names.

John Dehlin [00:59:11] Sam Young. Right?

John Larsen [00:59:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:12] What moves the needle, in addition to people that are willing to financially support something are these rare individuals that have some combination of naivete, foolishness, talent, intelligence, and. And determination where they're willing to step up and dedicate a huge portion of their lives and their reputation for an extended period of time to try and move the needle. And when Lindsay's light goes out in terms of her commitment to Mormonism, Sunstone will be on the ropes like it never was before. Because before Lindsay, it was seriously on the ropes. And I thought it's Going to be really hard to turn Sunstone around. But it's a credit to Lindsay's brilliance, intelligence, and social giftedness and leadership that she's turned something that was careening into an abyss, into something that's, I think, thriving. At least it has the appearance of thriving. Right. And it's Sam Young that said, I'm going to fight for the children. I. I don't care what the arrows are. I don't care if I have to pay my own life savings. I'm going to do this right. And there are only 20 of us, right, or 30 right now over the past decade or two who really reached that level. And what I'm trying to say is, in addition to financial support, which I've been really grateful for, we need to take care of these leaders socially, emotionally. Yeah, right. We need to find a way, number one. So we are going to say stupid things, and we're gonna be racist and sexist and homophobic. We've probably said 50 things on this podcast that we deserve to be skewered for. Probably. We have to find a way as a community to educate and mentor and support each other in ways that don't amount to. To public shaming and social annihilation. Not because, oh, poor us, don't hurt our feelings, but because we don't want to assassinate our own leaders. The church has hundreds of billions of dollars, and they're not the enemy, by the way. But the church has hundreds of billions of dollars in assets. And you take out any general authority, any apostle, there are others just waiting in the ranks to come. And there's very generous salaries and retirement compensation packages for generations and generations of leaders. And while I'm not calling them the enemy, I'm just saying that that's a powerful institution that is always going to have armies of employees, of leaders to keep the institution not only alive, but thriving. And we need to take care of our own people, and we need to find ways to educate each other in ways that aren't takedowns. And we need to find a way to partner so that we can help each other thrive and survive. And I'm just going to be vulnerable and honest. When I haven't been the best partner, it's been because I'm terrified that I'm going to be destroyed with the very trust and goodwill and empowerment that I try and share time and time again. I've had these people that I trusted, that I tried to empower, that I let into my own home, turn around and use that gun to try and Shoot me. And that's led me to feel just constantly terrified and paranoid that the next person that I trust and partner with is going to turn around and do that same thing to me. And it's. It's been. It's been a screw. Excruciating for my board. It's been excruciating for my organization, for anyone who's ever worked with me. Because the way I operate from day to day is as a paranoid, terrified, Howard Hughes like, individual. You know, not to that extreme, but that's how I feel in my mind. That's why I wake up at 2 or 3 most mornings and can't get back to bed. And, you know, can we find a way to partner where we don't end up cannibalizing each other? And the people that we took in, just like with you, there were people that you partnered with on your podcast that ended up turning around and, you know, betraying you in really awful ways. And I don't know, you know, I felt a little bit of solace when I interviewed Lloyd Evans. He's sort of like the top ex Jehovah's Witness. And I asked him, who are your biggest enemies? And guess who he said were his biggest enemies?

John Larsen [01:03:58] I'm sure there are people he worked with.

John Dehlin [01:04:00] Ex Jehovah's Witnesses.

John Larsen [01:04:01] Yeah. Yeah. Hi, I'm Stephen Carter. My job is great. I get to gather the best articles, essays, stories and poems from Sunstone magazine and narrate them for the Sunstone Magazine podcast. It's the best of Mormonism. In an audible quality recording, some of the people Sunstone has published include D. Michael Quinn, Jana Reiss, Gregory A. Prince, Elna Baker, Dan Weatherspoon, Gina Colvin, and John Gustav Rathal. Head over to patreon.com sunstone to listen to some of our free episodes and then join us for the Best of Mormon Thought and Experience.

The Need for Post-Mormon Community

John Dehlin [01:04:50] Because the biggest question that you're asking is, what's next? Is it community? Is it spirituality? Is it something else? We need community. We'll only do that when the leaders of this community find a way to transcend the fear and the paranoia and the patriarchal sort of mindset that we've all inherited and find a way to work together where we don't end up backstabbing and hurting each other. And I don't know how to do it. And I'm guilty of it.

John Larsen [01:05:16] I don't know either. Thank you for being so vulnerable, John. What you're saying is a difficult thing to say. And what I admire about you is that you're attempting to own these things. And that's really hard to do. Like, you're saying it puts you in a weak position. But. But if you take, like a patriarchal structure is one where there's one person at the top calling all the shots. Everybody else is a beta, Everybody else is auxiliary. But those things survive because they're efficient. If you want a company that makes money, and that's what we're all about. And it's really hard. I tried. I tried to make Mormon expression as inclusive as possible, and sometimes I took heat for it. There were probably, in the years Mormon Express was on, 500 people who are on that panel. I would let anybody sit on the panel if they wanted to. Some of those people do not like me for it because they got on. And this sounds easier than it is, what we're doing right now. And people would get on, and the feedback I'd get is, man, the conversation moves fast. You're going from topic to topic, you know, And I would try to coach them. This is radio that we're moving. This is not like a conversation you have in your living room. And, and, but. But was that effective to put people on the. In front of the microphone who had no business being in front of the microphone? I don't know. But you start running the organization as a hierarchy because that's the easiest way to do it. But it's. It's in. In a sense, it's the wrong way to do it because it starts breeding some of the problems that. That you have.

John Dehlin [01:06:58] It replicates the patriarchy that we're all reacting to.

John Larsen [01:07:01] People would volunteer to be on the podcast to be part of Mormon expression. I'm sure you experienced that, because they would hear the fun part and they want to be a part of that. And then what you'd say is, okay, I'll give you some of that. But what we really need is we need somebody to sweep the floor. And I've only got so much sweep the floor time. And the problem I ran into is the more volunteers I'd bring on, the more scut work I was doing. You know, when I say, you know, the height of Mormon expression, I was doing 30, 40 hours a week on top of my regular job. Much of that was managing volunteers. This is not a woe is me tale. This is me telling you things that I screwed up and I didn't do very well because I am more egalitarian in my view. I hate working for corporate America. I hate hierarchies, I hate structures. I'm very sort of anarchist when it comes to organizations, but. But it's so easy to fall into that. And I'm with you. I don't know how to create communities. You. You've always been interested. You always talk to me about the living community that. That Brent Fisher and I kind of set up, and we ran it for a year.

John Dehlin [01:08:05] Yeah.

John Larsen [01:08:05] And you got heavily involved in Oasis getting that set up. And you've asked me before, you know, why did it fail? And then I always bite back at you and say, it didn't fail. We quit. Then the question is, well, why did you quit? Because we would fill it up. We had full attendance. We met monthly. But so many people. It was the same 10 people who were doing everything. And I'll tell you, we were all sitting around together and, like, why are we inviting everybody else? Because people would come in there and smirk and they say, we like what you're doing. We're gonna come five or six times and then see if it was working. And then we might give you $20. And that's the attitude that I have had about many things I still do that we have to overcome. But I like what you're saying. I don't know how to give everybody a voice. I don't know how to make it so that we can be as inclusive as possible. Because when we're as inclusive as possible, you know that some of the people who are upset at me, some of them, it was. I frankly don't always know. Some of them were just opportunistic in the first place. They were never really my friend. They were never really. They wanted to get from me what they could. It's the minority. And I know those people have been there for you, but you get burned by one of those guys, they could be one out of a hundred. But you start becoming suspicious of the 99, and it starts sending you down this. This. This chain that you were just. You were just acknowledging. And. And it's. And I know there's people listening, saying, oh, you guys, you're sitting there lamenting. It really does make this. This difficult. But not. Not like, on a personal level. But how do we get as many people involved? How do we make that thing happen?

John Dehlin [01:09:50] Yeah. And it's not. This conversation is not about how do we keep white male podcasters happy. Like, Mormon stories could end tomorrow. And I'm 49 years old. I have a PhD, two master's degrees, a ton of experience. I could go make a lot of money. I'm going to be fine. Right. I'm not. I feel for the first time this year well compensated for what I do. And it's been 14, 15 years to get here.

John Larsen [01:10:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:23] So I, I'm even feeling very grateful about that. But that's not what, that's not why I'm doing this. Like, I, I loved my experience as a Mormon. I really valued scouts. I really valued the youth leaders that mentored me when my parents marriage fell apart. I value the talents and gifts that I learned how to speak and to communicate the moral principles that I was taught that kept me out of trouble. The community and the network that supported me, that gave me sort of this privileged life. Like, I didn't leave Mormonism because it mistreated me or I had bad experiences. I didn't leave Mormonism. They kicked me out. Why didn't I leave? Because I loved it so much because I had such a great. It gave me so much value. Right. And so what are we talking about? We're not talking about how white podcasters can be less sad. We're talking about what comes next. If we all had, and we all didn't have great experiences, and some of us were traumatized by our experiences of Mormonism, but on average, I think many of us have had a hard time letting Mormonism go, not because we hate it, but because we loved it so much. You don't have anger at something that you didn't love. You can't have anger for something that you, that you didn't first love. I don't think it's possible because anger is a secondary emotion. And it's sadness and hurt that's always under the anger. And so we're thinking about, we've had a taste of Zion. We had a taste of it and we're wondering, can we ever get a taste of that again? And if so, can we give it to our children? Because I don't think the youth in 2019 are thriving the way that we would expect they would with so much affluence all around us, because depression, anxiety, suicide, loneliness, they're as high as they've ever been in 2019, and we're as prosperous as we've ever been. And so I think we're saying, what does it look like in the future? Whether it's post Mormonism, secularism, irreligiosity, how do we form thriving, healthy communities, Whether it's just six couples that meet for barbecue and camping. It doesn't have to be on Sunday. I don't care. Like, what does Healthy social structures, what do they look like going forward as religion continues to decline and slide off the face of the developed Western world? How do we form communities that don't replicate the patriarchy, that don't replicate the sexual abuse, that don't replicate the misogyny, the racism, the homophobia, the bigotry and the misogyny, but do it in a way where people care, where they don't have the fear of eternal damnation or of family ostracization to motivate them to pay that 10% and to stack the chairs and to volunteer and to contribute so they don't have that fear and shame and guilt. But they do it because it provides them so much value. They want to sweep the floors and pay the money. But. But that's hard to do. It's hard to provide the incentives to make people want to form a community that's going to help them.

John Larsen [01:13:53] It's extremely hard and it's.

John Dehlin [01:13:56] But isn't it possibly important?

John Larsen [01:13:59] It is, but it's. It's difficult for people like you and me to do it. I think one of the things that, that I keep saying, which I believe. I'm not a leader. I'm not a leader. I have a voice that speaks to some people, repels other people. That's fine, but I'm not the guy to build this institution.

John Dehlin [01:14:20] I don't think I am either. I know I'm not.

John Larsen [01:14:25] And honestly, I'm not saying this to pander. I don't think it's any guy. I think I'm okay. We've had 15,000 years since the beginning of the agrarian age began. In my view, these are my personal views. The age of the patriarchy and the age of the patriarch. The age of men has been marked by greed, infighting, selfishness, this alpha clawing to the top. And you know what? Queen Elizabeth and the women who are at the top, they're engaged in the patriarchy too. Women. What we have to do is find new ways to divorce. And I'll tell you, the place I've arrived at, John, is what you were hinting at. People ask, am I trying to build bridges? Because I get people confused. Like what are you trying to do? For me right now, everything is on the micro scale. It's exactly what you're saying. We will not reform the church. As a matter of fact, our attempts. I said this to Sam Young to his face. And I worry that folks like Sam Young put the church back. Because the church or Kate Kelly or whatever, the one that's proven me wrong so far is the Pants movement because it was only three or four months later, after they did the letter writing campaign, that the church flipped over. But oftentimes our actions have the reverse effect. Like the church will react to John Dehlin. They pay attention to you. And so that puts you in a dilemma that when you try to advance things forward, the church might retrench just to make sure they don't seem like they did anything. It's the thing I say all the time, why did the church give the blacks the priesthood in 1978? And the answer is, because it wasn't 1965. They had to make it seem like they weren't responding to the civil rights movement. And we all have this dilemma. So the only thing, John, we can do is build these micro relationships that I can look at women around me, women who work for me, women who are my friends, and I can try to try to help them to navigate the patriarchy. I can talk to my female friends and let them tell me how I need to pull back my maleness, how I need to be more compassionate. I need to reach out to my LGBT friends, to my transgender friends. I need to reach out to people of color. I need to listen. But I think where some people are wrong is I can listen and still talk. I just can't do them at the exact same time. So. And I think, as I'm more concerned, to be honest with you, about poverty in this valley than I am about, you know, the latest thing the church is doing. And I think that's a reflection of maturity, saying we need to look on this very micro scale. If we all. If everyone listening to this podcast prepared, heard two relationships in their life, that seems like such an insignificant thing. But I think we would start lessening this anxiety, this depression, these. These forces. But my problem, John, is I don't know what to tell people. I don't know how to not fall into the trap. And I know you've seen it. You say, okay, well, people are asking me, they want to have a retreat. So I set up a retreat, and then there's a retreat, and then two people do things they shouldn't do at the retreat. Now the retreat's tainted, and I'm tainted, and there's people talking about, you know, I'm running a swingers club or whatever, and, geez, we all have got to back off. And you've acknowledged ways that you need to. Which I commend you for.

How Mormon Expression Has Evolved

John Dehlin [01:17:57] Yeah, thank you. And, well, you made me think of something I wanted to say earlier, and that's that what's changed about Joan Larsen? Like, what was Mormon expression? To me, Mormon expression was going at the church. It was saying, here are all the ways the church isn't true, and we're going to dig into each one and expose the church for being not true. I don't know if that's how you'd characterize it, but I think that's what a lot of people valued. It's like, it's. It's like, here's the takedown on polygamy. Here's the takedown on historicity of whatever. On. It's just, it's. It was living by the sword. Right. It was basically aggressive, male patriarchal sort of aggression. And it was the war mentality. And I don't want to say that there isn't a place for that. I don't even want to say that we were wrong, that I was wrong. Because Mormon stories, let's be clear, I used interviews and subtlety and emotions, but there have been times where I've had very similar goals. I'm going to embarrass the church or expose the church through the interviews that I do. Right. And so it may not have always been as overtly aggressive as maybe some people thought of Mormon expression, because there was always like, well, I listened to Dan Witherspoon, and then I graduate to Mormon stories, and then I graduate to Mormon expression, and then I end up with infants on thrones. You know, there was this sort of hierarchy of aggression.

John Larsen [01:19:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:19:30] Or. Or low Archie. Of aggression, you know, that people would cite. Right, right. But what I'm. What I'm trying to get at is that there. There's probably a place for all of that. I don't want to condemn it. At the same time, when you live by the sword, you die by the sword. And so when. When. In my worst times, where people have really been coming at me and I could name five people, you know, every time in my back of my mind, I thought, they're doing to me what I do to the church.

John Larsen [01:19:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:20:00] So, like, how is this any different? How am I. How can I keep aiming my sights at the church and then complain when people aim their sights at the.

John Larsen [01:20:12] Well, I forgive you. The church is an institution. It's not a human being. The church does not need the deference.

John Dehlin [01:20:17] There is a difference. But I'm also going to say, say that when everybody's in attack and battle mode.

John Larsen [01:20:24] You're right on that.

John Dehlin [01:20:25] It's hard to bring that into a community and have a healthy, thriving community.

John Larsen [01:20:29] It's hard. If you look at human history, it's very rare for revolutionaries to establish a government. There's two different mindsets.

John Dehlin [01:20:37] Yeah.

John Larsen [01:20:38] And I'm not here to establish the government. Now. You're right. Mormon expressed in my view, I think your characterization is completely fair. Was about deconstructing Mormonism. And really, and I've said it before, my mission was to let people know it's not you, it's the church. Because a lot of people internalize and say, what's wrong with me? But you're right, the takedowns were vicious at times. And I tried really, really hard. I failed sometimes. Most time I was successful in not personalizing it. I was attacking the church, not the individuals. But it still had the same net effect. And you are absolutely right that I may fancy myself to be not part of the patriarchy, whatever, but Mormon expression ran on high octane patriarchal testosterone. Testosterone. Right. I mean, it was the nature of the beast, but that's what cuts through the noise. So we're in this dilemma of this has to be a bit of performance, this is a bit of exhibitionism. Somebody has to want to listen to this.

John Dehlin [01:21:42] Yeah. Yep.

John Larsen [01:21:43] And, and then you, you want to do it in a way that's, that's entertaining, that makes people smile, makes people laugh, makes people cry. But you, you, you, you don't want to push that envelope too far because you start becoming a pro. The part of the problem that you're trying to.

John Dehlin [01:21:58] You become the monster you're running from,

John Larsen [01:22:00] which is the fate of everybody at the top of a patriarchy. It's the fate of everybody at the top of the institution. You will become what it is you, you, you hate.

John Dehlin [01:22:09] Yeah.

John Larsen [01:22:10] And so, so that's part of the reason I, you know, I, I dropped the mic and, and you know, and, but I'm, you know, I'm here back for a lot of different reasons, but I'm not, I don't have the same message, but I'm not ashamed of Mormon expression. No, it's still, it's still out there.

John Dehlin [01:22:26] It's brilliant.

John Larsen [01:22:27] I still stand, stand behind things I said there. It's needed, but I, it's, it's not. I received probably one of the best compliments I've ever received. Somebody last week sent me a message and told me that it was recommended to listen to by their therapist. So if I've got therapists telling people they should listen to it, that's a good thing. But I'm not there anymore. And when I find myself slipping there, I Don't want to go back there. I'm not ashamed of it. It was a stage of my life. But it's now time. What I want is for us to figure out how to build something else out of the ashes. Right. We've cut each other down politically, geographically, racially, gender wise. We live in this world that, that is very much about just like burn everything down. Like, like we've had all these institutions and I understand it. You look in this post industrial world, let's take it from 18, 8, let's take it from 8 to 5, the birth of our, of the new Jesus. The from Joseph Smith on like this, this, this pumped up, aggressive, like winner take all. Try to get as much money, as much greed, as much capitalism. And I think, lest I sound like a communist, we are in late stage capitalism like it's reaching its end point. Now, I'm not necessarily advocating that communism, the next thing, I don't know what the next thing is, but what we were doing in the church, what we're doing, attacking the church, it ain't working. Meaning we have to build something new. And my problem is, I don't know what that is, but I do know that we can learn to love each other, we can learn to tolerate each other, we can learn to be pluralistic, we can learn to be ecumenical. And that's not something that I favored 10 years ago. And it's hard for me to be ecumenical is difficult for me, but it's the right path for me.

Inclusion, Diversity, and the Big Tent

John Dehlin [01:24:19] Yeah. And it's so hard because I, I, you got, you, you were vulnerable just this week and you shared a criticism, a conversation you were having on Reddit and did I read it right? Some guy accused you of like receiving money and that that's why you've quote, gone soft. Yeah. Somebody said like, that was such a crazy. And I'm like, that's what I love so much about your Phoenix message is it was about healing and growth. Ultimately, how do we build something? And it's easy. It is always easier to tear down than to build up.

John Larsen [01:24:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:24:49] It's always easier to deconstruct than to create. And anger makes everyone feel powerful. So whether it's ex Mormon Reddit, which I love, or, you know, all the podcast communities or Facebook or whatever it is, we risk as a community getting addicted to the adrenaline of anger and of rage and of criticism and of deconstruction. And while that's sexy, and it usually is more lucrative than being peaceful. Right. Oprah was all. Oprah probably made more money when she was being sensationalistic and controversial than when she was trying to go the Eckhart Tolle route and be about personal healing and growth. One of the things we risk as a community is getting addicted to the anger and the adrenaline and being bored by the prospects of healing and growth and building something. And it was weird to see people react to your desire to heal and build as you selling out or you being weak or boring.

John Larsen [01:25:58] They don't trust. They don't trust it. I don't blame them.

John Dehlin [01:26:02] I don't either.

John Larsen [01:26:03] But, but we, but, but it'll.

John Dehlin [01:26:05] We'll get stuck in a toxic soup if we don't grow past it. But it's not as, it's not necessarily always as entertaining or as fun or as adrenaline to try and build something. I think in the end, the payoff's there, but it's, it's grueling. Well, you, I think that's what Lindsay's trying to do. And I, I've seen her post before. Trying to do egalitarian, truly non patriarchal, consensus building, constructive work is excruciating.

John Larsen [01:26:37] Well, and you know the question, and I know I've said this before, but. So I beg your indulgence, but people ask why I came back. There's, of course, I'm a multifaceted person, so there's a lot of complex things, but the basics is I did it because I believe in Lindsay, because Lindsay was able to bridge a gap that I thought was unbridgeable and that that was to the fundamentalists. And when she first told me that, that she was going down there and she was going to start working with Short Creek and some of those people, I told her in no uncertain terms, do not do that, Lindsay. That is a mistake. And I thought she was being bullheaded and I thought she was risking herself in ways that she shouldn't, but she did it. And so the model of building these communities has, has been, has been shown to me. And I do not think it's a mistake that, that, that part of the reason that that Sunstone is coming back to life is because it's led by women, of course. And, and you know, I, I was never going to lead another podcast and, and I like the position where I can support Lindsay. And Lindsay's a human being and she's a flawed human being and she, she needs our support and we need to find more Lindsay's.

John Dehlin [01:27:55] We do. And can I just say we have one. Her name is Kim Sandberg Turner and she is a woman of a certain age. That started an organization called waka. Women of a Certain Age. Have you ever heard of waka?

John Larsen [01:28:08] No.

John Dehlin [01:28:09] So Kim Samberg Turner started a support group for post Mormon women 40 and above. And I'm surprised you haven't heard of it. But it's three or four years into its existence and there are thousands of women all across the Wasatch Front who are. Who are or throughout the country. But several like up to a thousand women along the Wasatch Front where every week there's book groups, there's dinner clubs, there's date nights, now there's mocha. Men of a Certain Age, now there's coca, there's Couples of a Certain Age. And it's led by Kim Sandberg Turner and a board of women. And they have this thriving power. They do girls camp twice a year where they go to Midway or Heber. And for a whole weekend there's 100 or 200 women teaching each other, nurturing each other, supporting each other. It's a major deal right now and it's led by a woman. And you are right. We need women leaders. For sure.

John Larsen [01:29:12] No. And this is a personal belief. I think men have screwed up the world and it's time to go back. It's time to, I think a better model. And when women have women focused organizations, meaning organizations that organically grow through women, they tend to diversify and distribute power. They tend to be excruciatingly slow because of that. They're inefficient. But. But that's part of it is to embrace the inefficiency. If we wanna move away from a patriarchal structure, we have to move away from things that work the best way possible. Because the best way possible is oftentimes the way that enriches the few at the expense of the many. When I talk about efficiency, I'm using that as a curse word. Cause what they're doing is figuring out how to extract every penny. And if we can move away from that paradigm into ways that really support everybody, I'll throw my support behind that.

John Dehlin [01:30:09] So we need to find a way to do it that energizes people, that gives them so much value they want to support it. And we need to find a way to do it where women can lead. But men still feel like they have an important role to play.

John Larsen [01:30:23] One of the things that John, you and I can do is help other men learn how to be good followers. The that's if you want to talk about how the patriarchy really men, Men like the quarterbacks, they like the winning team. And what we need to learn is to be better joiners. And I'm a terrible joiner. But if I want to change the world, what we need to all stop doing is creating more and more nonprofits and figure out how to bolster the ones. And I know there's a conversation people may not believe it that you and I have been having since day one, since 10 years ago. And you. I've always called it the big tent. And how do we, how do we cross promote these different organizations? How do we have an ecumenical focus in our community while not feeling threatened while. While realizing we're vulnerable but still cross promote without creating camps? Because I get frustrated when I see, okay, is that, Is that, is that an Open Stories person or is that a Sunstone person? They. You can ask Lindsay. She'll tell you. I get mad whenever that comes up because I think it's a false dichotomy and one that we need to. We. There's nothing that, that I'll say this right now, there's nothing that open stories can do that in the long run will damage sunstone. You can do things in the short run that will.

John Dehlin [01:31:37] Right.

John Larsen [01:31:37] You can make moves and Sunstone can make moves, and, and then the people get pissed off and then they start getting angry. But in the long run, none of us are going to. And if we just recognize that, that we're all trying to do the same thing. But you have articulated, articulated very well, John, why it's so hard to do that, why it's so vulnerable. Because you risk your reputation, you risk your income, you risk your family, you risk your friends, and it's just easier to circle the wagons and, and, and, and try to keep the other. Keep the enemy at the door.

John Dehlin [01:32:09] Yeah. And this isn't just a post Mormon thing. Like if you, if you listen to, you know, Facebook takedowns, you know, shaming culture, like, it's everywhere. It's. It's something we're facing right now. And I guess what I'm saying is we do need exactly what you said. The big tent. Fellowship of the Ring. I like to think, you know, the metaphors I use are like the X Men or the Avengers or the Fellowship of the Ring where we partner and collaborate, because I think we could make each other super strong. What I know for sure is that most people, most Mormons along the Wasatch front have never heard of John de Lynn. They've never heard of Kate Kelly. They've never heard of Lindsay Hansen Park. They've never heard of Sunstone with as much progress as we've made, they've never heard of John Larsen. I apologize to say, no, thank goodness, but we have just started to scratch the surface of Mormon consciousness. There's so much more work that's needed, so much more demand that we have to. There's great work to be done. And I do believe that if we partner, if we partner, we can make each other much more successful. And when I successful, I don't mean money. I mean meeting more people's needs. And by the way, when you meet people's needs, they give you money because they're grateful. So I know that it's possible. What we need to do, not just to figure out in post Mormonism, but in America, is how do we have a culture where we can trust each other, but educate each other and support each other and have some type of boundary? I don't know how. We don't want loyalty tests. We don't want policing. We don't want thought police, we don't want word police. But we also need to educate each other, but also support and protect each other so that we don't discourage Sam Young to the point where he quits or discourage Lindsay to the point where she quits or discourage you so that you back out again. We want to motivate and support our leaders because they're precious. And when they're gone, when September 6th, we're snuffed out. It took 10 years or more for leadership to arise again. Right? And if we snuff out this generation of leaders, it may take another 10 years for another set of leaders to emerge where they can actually get traction. Right? And so we have to have community standards for not only support, but for education and discipline or motivation, because this takedown culture just leaves everybody frayed and discouraged and ultimately defeated. And I don't know how to do it.

John Larsen [01:34:54] I don't know how to do it. So I think my final message here, and I'm going to deliver the message from the Johns, and you can correct me if I'm wrong. You and I have done what can be said to be amazing things. We've now accomplished things that a lot of people haven't. We've had that privilege. And a lot of that comes from work that we do didn't do that. We were able to stand on the shoulders of others for sure. And we've made mistakes. We've both made big mistakes and little mistakes. And we both want to solve the problem of the pain and suffering, and we both want a community where we can be more pluralistic and ecumenical.

John Dehlin [01:35:40] Build something

John Larsen [01:35:43] and, and build something. I think, I think you might be a little bit more motivated to actually build something than I am, but I think I feel like it's a necessity, a necessary evil. I, I.

Building Connections for Isolated Post-Mormons

John Dehlin [01:35:54] Well, when you talked about teenagers, post Mormon teenagers being, not ever talking to adults and being totally isolated, you weren't just, like, describing an interesting thing. Weren't you? Weren't you calling out a social malady?

John Larsen [01:36:08] I am. And I think that's a great example.

John Dehlin [01:36:10] When you talked about, I don't know, going to the hospital and your friend going to the hospital and him rejoining Mormonism because there was no one to support him outside of Mormonism. Right. You were calling out a problem, which is we're not creating social structures for our youth and we're not creating social structures that support each other in our post Mormonism.

John Larsen [01:36:28] Absolutely. You're exactly right. I guess I'm still hesitant. The anarchist in me is hesitant to build another organization. So that's where I agree. The message that's confusing is I'm telling everybody we need to build something. And then I'm saying, I don't know that we need to build anything.

John Dehlin [01:36:44] Yeah, yeah. Maybe it'll be organic. I don't know.

John Larsen [01:36:47] And, and I, I think I want to invite people that you and I are open to listening to people who, who can point us in directions that we have, have made mistakes. Odds are likely we already know which, which mistakes we've made. But, but that invitation out there, we know we've done things incorrectly. We want to be better.

John Dehlin [01:37:10] Yeah.

John Larsen [01:37:11] And our, our ultimate goal is to make a better community. And I'm sending the invite out for some people that might be just sending a $20 check to open Stories or sunstone or sunstone for, for, for other people. It might be finding out how we can volunteer, how we can create organic or networks or what, whatever else there. I'm, I'm, I'm open and I, and I, and I believe you are.

John Dehlin [01:37:34] Or how about just contribute to a constructive discourse on social media. Like to try and figure out how to engage in conversations in more healthy, constructive ways.

John Larsen [01:37:45] Well, and we're trying to do it in little ways. You've made a couple references to things that you've followed in my life on Facebook. Those things are not out on general Facebook. I have a very small group.

John Dehlin [01:37:54] Oh, I'm sorry I mentioned.

John Larsen [01:37:55] No, no, no. It's, it's, I'm glad, I'm glad you did. It was, it was, it was there's there's nothing there. You said incorrectly. But, but what, what I like about it is it's a space. There's Mormons in it, there's ex Mormons, there's non Mormons, there's everything. And, but somebody made it, made a comment the other day. And, and they, they were just saying there was, there was a, there was a thread. We'd started saying words that we need to stop saying.

John Dehlin [01:38:18] Yeah.

John Larsen [01:38:18] And, and there was a huge amount of participation of words on all sides saying things like, colt, cult, pedophile, pedophile, fraud, apostate, you know, and, and somebody came on thoughtfully and said, you know, this has really made me think about the way I talk about and really made me appreciative that everyone in here is saying these are things that I did wrong. And I think that's where we need to be. The model, if anything I'm looking at is Bishop Desmond Tutu and, you know, reconciliation that happened in South Africa. The truth and reconciliation. Truth and reconciliation, that we have to be willing to acknowledge the problems. But for you and I, as white men, trying to get something done, to have people say, well, you just need to step aside. You're part of the problem. You're no different than they are. You know, that's maybe true, but it doesn't help me. I don't have anywhere to go once you shut me down that way and say, well, you know, you're just a, you're just a jerk because you're a white male. It might be true, but it doesn't leave me an out. So I'm putting the call out to everybody saying, we are all part of this community, even if you don't want to be. And we all have a responsibility to build this world. I think the saddest part in the world today is that it's true. There's corruption and greed and it's poisoning everything. But the real problem is we're all just turning, we're just walking away in shame. And what we need to be doing is saying, I reject this world of, of corruption and greed. So I'm going to start building a little tiny micro world around me where, where that's not what, what happens. And if we can all do that together. But I'm open. I, I would love to sit. My favorite thing now is to sit in people's living rooms late at night and just talk about how we can fix the problem. And, and I'm doing that with Mormons. I'm doing it with non Mormons. I'm Doing it with ex Mormons, whoever. You're. You're. I don't. You're all my people. I, I believe what I believe and I don't apologize for it, but I don't, I don't hate you because you believe these things.

John Dehlin [01:40:17] People over beliefs, relationships over beliefs, for sure. And I love that you're calling people to mend relationships. I've got relationships in my life. I, I need to mend. I'd love to mend. I do think it starts there. And I also just want to also. For all our self criticism, the, the past 14 years, if it's created one thing, it's these little clusters of relationships and community that exist from not just from St. George to Logan and up into Idaho, but all throughout the world. The podcasts, Sunstone, the Facebook communities, all these efforts have created forged lifelong relationships and little micro communities that are beautiful to behold. There are, you know, the rock. Think of the Rockwells and all the little friendship cluster. That's just one small example of amazing little micro communities that have been built all over. And that's a wonderful asset that we have. We know that that can happen. So I love that you're calling for micro relationships to be, be the start of whatever this ends up being. Maybe it won't be a bureaucracy, maybe it won't be a Sunday gathering, maybe it won't be a nonprofit, certainly, hopefully it won't be male led. But we've actually made some phenomenal progress in terms of those micro relationships, and that's going to be a wonderful asset to build on. And so let's also acknowledge that some real beauty has come out of the past 15 years.

Finding Common Ground Across the Spectrum

John Larsen [01:41:58] Oh, yeah, for sure. And the people that I have met from all sides of the spectrum, you know, you talked about that Phoenix talk, but, you know, afterwards, several of us went back to the house and you had people who were believers, people who were fundamentalist people who. And we just swapped stories, weird Mormon stories from the past, and everyone laughed and it didn't matter. It didn't matter what you believed. And I know what Lindsay's vision is that I share is that's what Sunstone can be. It's a place where you check your weapons at the door. You know, Constantine is a comic book and there was a movie made. So Constantine is this like devil hunter or whatever. He hunts demons, he works for God. And there is this bar, I've used this analogy before called Papa Midnights. And it's the place where fallen angels and fallen devils can go. That's the place for me. We've all been through this, this ringer that is both our culture, our American culture and our Mormon culture. And it's time for us just to say it's time for the after game party. It's for us to say we fought on the field now let's go back and let's, let's talk and let's grow and, and you are absolutely right. I would not trade even with the pain, the suffering, the suicides, the things that I've had to pay attention to, the relationships and the people that I've been able to meet. I'll tell you, Fringy Mormons and ex Mormons, they're some of the most interesting, dynamic people you will ever have the pleasure to meet. And you are doing yourself, dear listener, a disservice by not going out and meeting some of these people because they're weird, they're funny, they're fun and they're smart. And I count as the greatest gift that I've been able to meet the people I've been able to meet. And my life has been greatly enriched.

John Dehlin [01:43:55] And that's also true for liberal Mormons and progressive Mormons and fundamentalist Mormons. Sure.

John Larsen [01:44:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:02] Just people are beautiful when you stop to actually get to know them one on one. And we need to do more of that.

John Larsen [01:44:08] We do. Well, thanks, thanks, John. Thanks for, thanks for being so open. I, I don't, I don't know the solutions to all these things but I, I, I really appreciate your willingness to dialogue and to, to consider ways we can move forward. And I, I'll tell you, it hasn't stopped. We're going to keep talking, John and I, and we, I, I want to hear from, from, from you guys. As always, you can contact me@john larsonunstone.org how do they get a hold of John Dehlin?

John Dehlin [01:44:37] You can do mormonstories gmail.com that's fine. Or drjohndelinmail.com I do want to just make, I want to make a plea to. We know that there's a culture of anger and of debate and of testosterone. It's raging still. We were a part of it and that's in many ways healthy and it's exactly as it should be. It's an important developmental state stage. But let's just say that we're, you know, me, you, Lindsay, all the other people, Gina Colvin, Dan Witherspoon, Natasha Alfred Parker, like all, you know, femmes, Mormon housewives and, and dialogue and, and Exponent 2, just all the different Players, Sistas and Zion. Fair. Fair. Yeah, we're all. Let's just say we don't go away yet. And let's just say that we're going to stick around long enough to try and create something beautiful out of the ashes. As you say, there are going to be people in that angry culture that are going to say that's boring, or they're going to say they've sold out or that's not interesting, or that doesn't make me feel as powerful as anger and criticism does. Those people are going to be there and they're going to be turned off or bored or be super critical of what we try and do. Well, the only way that some sort of Zionic vision can emerge from the ashes is if those listeners who are listening, who appeal, who feel drawn towards the idea of love, of bridge building, of compassion, of creation, say, I'm not going to call that boring. And I'm not going to tune out. And I'm not going to let my cynicism get the best of me to turn away from the possibility of us creating something better. And the only. So the only way that this can have a chance of a spark, of growing is if some of these listeners out there say, I'm going to volunteer at Sunstone, I'm going to throw a little more bones their way or I'm going to get involved or build a little community or entertain the question of what we might create together.

John Larsen [01:47:01] Or invite your neighbors over for dinner.

John Dehlin [01:47:03] Yeah. Or mend a relationship that's broken.

John Larsen [01:47:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:47:06] Right. And so that's my call is for that listener who wants to believe that we can create something beautiful out of these ashes. And by the way, every beautiful thing that has ever been created was created out of the ashes of something that preceded it.

John Larsen [01:47:22] For sure.

John Dehlin [01:47:24] I call on listeners to be that extra set of hands to create something beautiful together.

John Larsen [01:47:31] And I concur. And I know a mindset that changed in me, you know, as I'm. I read recently that all cynics are disappointed optimists.

John Dehlin [01:47:43] Yeah. A skeptic is an idealist who's been burned.

John Larsen [01:47:46] Right.

John Dehlin [01:47:46] Yeah.

John Larsen [01:47:47] And we're talking very utopian. We always do. But the recognition I find.

John Dehlin [01:47:52] So did Joseph, by the way.

John Larsen [01:47:53] Yes, well, the revolutionaries do. What I recognized is that we're talking a utopia that I understand is very unlikely to ever be realized because it may not even exist. But you know what? A tiny step towards that utopia makes us that much better. And the recognition that if you can repair one relationship, then we've moved One minuscule step closer and that's all that matters. That's all that life is. It's a series of relationships. And, and yeah, we want these institutions. We want to create a utopia where everyone's. It's not going to happen, but it can happen on a microscope. If you pick your seven closest friends, you can create a utopia with them.

John Dehlin [01:48:36] Yeah. Amen, brother.

Closing Reflections and Farewell

John Larsen [01:48:37] Well, John, it's been, it's been a pleasure.

John Dehlin [01:48:39] Thank you for coming longer than you wanted.

John Larsen [01:48:41] Yeah. What else do I have to make? Have I, have I hit all my John Larsen, my John de Lind make fun of points? No. I've had many people over the years chide me for saying I like John's long form, and I always say I just don't have the attention span for it. But you're, you're, you're, you're doing a, a great work. And, you know, there's a lot of people that you have given voice to. You know, if you take the annuals of Mormon stories, you open a new chapter in Mormonism, of exploring, of. You know, I know the acquisition that we've talked about a lot, that you can be patriarchal or whatever, but you have in fact given voice to a lot of people. And for that I commend you. And I think whatever pain you felt and whatever criticism people have given, that that legacy will live long beyond you, John. So, so know that you, you are, you are doing good, at least from, from my perspective.

John Dehlin [01:49:36] Thank you, brother. And bless you. And bless Lindsay and bless Sunstone. And I'm so glad to see you back in the ring. I hate it when a fellow. I don't want to say soldier because military, it's a patriarchal military reference, but I hate when a fellow leader or, you know, person of influence when their light dims. And I was sad when your light dimmed. Although I'm glad you were exercising self care. I'm so thrilled to see your light shining brightly again. I'm super inspired personally by your positivity and optimism and constructive approach. It's changing me and how I approach things and, and I'm really excited to see what you do. And I hope people support you and support Lindsay and support Sunstone because you

John Larsen [01:50:27] guys deserve support and the same goes for you guys. And I do appreciate everything your foundation has done. Thanks again, John. Thanks, everybody listening.

John Dehlin [01:50:36] Thanks, guys.

John Larsen [01:50:37] Thanks, John.

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