Welcome and Introducing John Dehlin

John Larsen [00:00:20] All right, welcome back to another edition of Mormon Expression, a special edition where it's the afternoon. Normally it's dark when we record, so special conditions for a special guest. So, first of all, let me introduce my lovely spouse, Zilpha. Hey, Zilpha.

Zilpha Larsen [00:00:41] Hello, John. Hello, everybody.

John Larsen [00:00:44] Hello from everybody. Things are changing in the Mormon world. When you look at what's been going on the last 30 or 40 years, something's happening, and I don't think anybody quite understands it, and that includes me, and it definitely includes the brethren. I think they're kind of bewildered. And there's a few lightning rods to the change that's going on right now. And we have the privilege of maybe having lightning rod number one here in Studio 1A, the famous and infamous, depending on where you're from. John Dehlin, welcome to Studio Fist. In your face, John Dehlin.

John Dehlin [00:01:25] I am here at Larsen headquarters, and it's a pleasure.

John Larsen [00:01:30] What's your impression?

John Dehlin [00:01:31] It's beautiful. We're in Lehigh and I'm sitting in this office with, like, it feels like I'm in a radio station. There's, like four mics and there's, you know, earphone sets for every microphone. And John's big, huge library of books are surrounding us. And my guess is it's just a fraction of the books you own. Right.

John Larsen [00:01:51] These are all the LDS books. We keep all of our other books upstairs or in the other room.

John Dehlin [00:01:54] It's like 200, 300 books here. It's quite nice. Beautiful home. Larsons are wonderful people. Thanks for having me.

John Larsen [00:02:02] Well, thanks for coming.

Zilpha Larsen [00:02:03] Welcome.

John Dehlin [00:02:04] Zilpha says she's nervous.

Zilpha Larsen [00:02:06] I said I'm feeling a little shy.

John Dehlin [00:02:07] Shy?

John Larsen [00:02:08] It must be.

Zilpha Larsen [00:02:09] Your John's just so handsome. He's intimidating.

John Dehlin [00:02:13] Yeah, John is handsome.

John Larsen [00:02:15] I don't think she's talking about. She's talking about me. You are an intimidating fellow. You know, you're. What are you, six' four, six, five,

John Dehlin [00:02:23] six, six, six, six.

Zilpha Larsen [00:02:26] Yeah. I hugged him, and it was like my nose was at his belly button.

John Larsen [00:02:29] And normally she can't. My belly button is in her nose because she can't even get close. So you six, six. I remember reading that hair and height was a huge determiner in executive success, and you worked at Microsoft, and being six' six, you gave up a corner office.

John Dehlin [00:02:52] That's right. I did give up a corner office. Well, the equivalent to a corner office. It's been worth it. I haven't ever looked back.

John Larsen [00:03:00] Really?

John Dehlin [00:03:00] Not at all.

John Larsen [00:03:02] I've always wondered on. This is completely off the subject. The Paradox of Microsoft. Everybody thinks Microsoft products suck, but their employees are looked as golden when they're hired by any other company. I've never quite figured that out. So you're golden even though your products leave something to be desired. I'm not going to blame John for that. He knows it. John is a man of truth.

John Dehlin [00:03:26] I have more Apples than I have PCs. I have, like, three Apple computers and two PCs.

John Larsen [00:03:32] All right, well, why don't we dive in? You know, John, you're usually behind the microphone and not in front of the microphone. So there's a lot of people, as I've watched, you know, we sort of run in the same circles to some extent, watch the same goings on and. And a lot of people scratch their heads over, you know, so we're going to try to peel away the layers of the onion and get down to the bottom of. Who is John Dehlin? You know, what I like best about you is you started Mormon stories in. Was it 2005?

John Dehlin [00:04:12] Yep.

John Larsen [00:04:14] And you've obviously changed a lot during those seven years nearly. And we always knew where you were. I mean, you can tell. You can tell a vintage John de Lin. You can pull a John de Lin that I've never heard, and I can listen to it and I can tell you what year it was based on your. Your changing attitude about your. And I love that. I love that you. You wore your own belief and questions and all that in the. In the podcast.

John Dehlin [00:04:42] Well, that was, you know, it was kind of a little bit, maybe by design, you know, how, like, people like reality tv. I just kind of figured if I was going through a bit of a journey, that might add some interest or intrigue. Just like you guys. You guys have had Niall and George, and that personality element has added a lot to what's made your podcast attractive to people. Zilpha and you. And just the whole banter. And so maybe having a little bit of that personality gives some authenticity to it, gives some interest to it, and helps people feel like they're on a journey with me a little bit.

John Larsen [00:05:16] Yeah, I think so. And I think the church tends to pull out personality so much, you know, and, you know, you listen to, like, Carol Makita or whatever doing her interviews, and she's a wonderful interviewer, but they have to, like, pull so much of what's. What's a personality of the brethren, whoever they're talking to, that you just end up wanting to, like, say, you know, just break that down. And just being able to give that a little bit makes it so refreshing, I think.

John Dehlin [00:05:42] Yeah, it's been fun. I don't know that I planned it all, but it sure has been neat. Whenever someone meets me, I'm sure they do this to you guys. The first thing they say is, I feel like I know so much about you.

John Larsen [00:05:52] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Zilpha Larsen [00:05:55] And then we feel bad when we

John Larsen [00:05:56] can't remember their name or when we don't live up to their.

Zilpha Larsen [00:06:01] Yeah, you feel like you have to say something clever or, you know, oh,

John Dehlin [00:06:07] the life of celebrity. The life of a celebrity is so hard, isn't it?

John Larsen [00:06:10] Oh, yeah, it's hard.

John Dehlin [00:06:12] Celebrity to 12 people.

John Larsen [00:06:14] Yeah, exactly.

John's Beliefs When Mormon Stories Began

Zilpha Larsen [00:06:16] So, John, where were you, belief wise, when you first started Mormon stories?

John Dehlin [00:06:22] When I first started Mormon stories, I was just naively optimistic phase where I had had my beliefs totally destroyed. And then I discovered Eugene England and Lowell Bennion, and it was like, oh, I just, you know, if those guys knew everything and they still believe and Leonard Arrington, then everyone can do it. So it's like I'd read little Bennion's biography. I'd read Adventures of a Church Historian, and it's like, okay, I'm just going to go through this journey of learning stuff about Mormonism, and I know that the end product will be that everyone will be able to stay in the church and believe again. I just need to kind of go through that process and bring everyone with me, and by the end, we'll all be happy, progressive members of the church and we'll all be better for it. So it was this sort of naive, naive place informed by those guys.

John Larsen [00:07:13] But, I mean, but there are a lot of guys, really smart guys, who were able to maintain that position. So maybe I'll take a little exception about you calling it naive, because I wouldn't call any of those guys, Brother Bennion and Eugene England and those guys to be naive.

John Dehlin [00:07:32] I mean, you know what? The people that I know who knew Eugene England, that's probably the word that they use most to describe him.

John Larsen [00:07:39] Really Naive.

John Dehlin [00:07:40] Yeah. Like when I talk. When I read Levi Peterson, he was very close friends with Eugene England. I got that sense when I've talked to other prominent people. They say that Eugene England always felt like the Brethren were going to appreciate what he did. And he was always waiting for them to embrace and endorse his approach. And that was what was part of. He was always engaging them as if they ever had a snowball's chance to ever, like, accept and embrace what he was doing. And they never did. And that was part of what was Heartbreaking for him.

John Larsen [00:08:12] Well, they. And they crushed him at the end. You know, it's really disheartening, you know, what they did to him, because. Yeah, I mean, he was. He. He fought against the absurdities, you know, and that's. That's the thanks you get, really. I, you know, I think BYU died in 96 or 95 or whenever it was. It wasn't the September 6th. It was that aftermath of that exodus, and it's never been the same since.

John Dehlin [00:08:37] Yeah. So I'm not saying everyone who stays in the church is naive. Let me be clear. What's naive is to think, one, that you could ever change the church, Two, that the brethren would ever care about or pay attention to what you have to say. And three, what I think is definitely naive is to expect that the road that Lowell and Eugene and the others have followed is realistic for most people. I think it's going to be a small percentage of thoughtful Mormons who are able to stay once they become exposed to the facts.

John Larsen [00:09:07] Now, let's go back a minute, because you're starting to sound like me. You said that we can't change the church.

John Dehlin [00:09:13] Definitely not. I haven't had that goal in years of actually changing the church. No.

John Larsen [00:09:18] So what is your goal? What are you trying to do?

John Dehlin [00:09:22] So goal number one is to bring awareness regarding the tougher issues of Mormonism to as many people as possible. The analogy I like to use is if you were aware that the Concorde jet was a fantastic aircraft in every possible way, except for the fact that it exploded into a ball of flames every 1000th time that it took off. You know, you would want to make sure that your customers knew that. That people who were buying tickets to fly on the Concorde were aware of that before they made that decision. If you had a car that you know was going to fail one out of a thousand times, you'd want to know that before you bought it. So I think that everyone who is a member or is looking to become a member should know what they're getting into or what they're in before they make big commitments about what to do with their time and income. So I think honesty is an openness and awareness of the facts is goal number one.

John Larsen [00:10:19] So would you say that for people who are unaware of these issues, would you have a goal of introducing them like naive Peter and Molly and Sandy heading to church every week? Do you have a goal of helping them understand these historical issues?

John Dehlin [00:10:37] I want to find this perfect way such that when they have the question, our stuff and ours, meaning our movement, you guys, everybody. I want the information to be available to them as soon as they start having questions. I don't want to force it on anybody. I don't believe in force, but that's the first thing. Get the information out there and then for all the people for whom Mormonism doesn't work, for whom it explodes kind of in their face, I want to do whatever I can to minimize the collateral damage for those who would otherwise suffer unnecessarily or in unproductive ways. So those are my two goals. I don't. We're ambivalent. We're agnostic about whether people stay or leave the church. We're not trying to get people to stay. I've renounced stale DS as the path. We. We keep it going because it's a path for the people who need it. But we're not trying to get people to stay. We're also not trying to people to get. We're not trying to get people to go provide the information and then provide support for those who need it. That's it.

Where John Stands on Faith Today

John Larsen [00:11:37] So what do you believe? I mean, where are you at? Let's start at the top. God.

John Dehlin [00:11:45] So my view on God is I got to the point where I didn't know if there was a God. I looked deeply into that abyss, and I'm at the point where I realized that the probability that God exists is quite low. Right. But at the same time, I'm not quite. As I look at the probability that everything that we have here is just random and there's no purpose or meaning to it. That actually seems almost as absurd as the idea that there is some type of God. Those seem almost equally absurd to me.

John Larsen [00:12:18] Yeah, but does anybody. I don't mean to light you up, but does anybody really believe the second. I mean, most atheists wouldn't say this is just randomness.

John Dehlin [00:12:27] Well, what else is it? If there's meaning, what creates the meaning? Is there any meaning outside of the meaning we create?

John Larsen [00:12:33] It's a response to conditions, you know?

John Dehlin [00:12:36] Yeah, but for me, it's. It's. So that's.

John Larsen [00:12:42] I'm not trying to talk.

Zilpha Larsen [00:12:44] So you. You feel like there has to be some kind of deeper meaning, otherwise.

John Dehlin [00:12:48] No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I. I think the position of this life is. I've heard your podcast on this. I loved how you described it, that being an atheist for many people allows them to say, this life is all I have, and I'm going to have as much meaning and purpose as I can by Living each day to the fullest. I think that's beautiful. I think that's a viable option. I don't dismiss it for me personally, since both options. A God or meaninglessness in terms of there being some transcendent meaning, since both of those things seem equally absurd. I'm happier when I feel like what I do makes some tangible, meaningful, even metaphysical difference. So I choose that. Let's just say it's an illusion. I just choose it. And I choose to believe that what I'm doing with Mormon stories, what I'm doing with my family, what I'm trying to do with this community, is going to have some lasting impact that's real and significant and that maybe even. Well, the second part of my testimony is that whenever I've tried to do something that I think is good or worthwhile, I've always felt power or influence, organized to support these righteous goals or desires, just people coming out of the woodworks to help and support. Maybe it's just that mankind is evolutionarily programmed to support a good cause. But from my perspective, I've always felt some type of support or influence or even inspiration. I can't. I don't know where that comes from. To me, God might not be anthropomorphic at all, or it may just be a power, or there may be nothing. But I'm happier when I choose to act as though there's purpose and meaning and there's been enough support for what I've tried to do that I just call that God. I slap the God label on that, fully aware that there's a. There's a, you know, low probability that there actually is anything. But that's what I call faith.

Zilpha Larsen [00:14:44] It feels better feeling like what you're doing is, like, endorsed by a higher power. And somehow it's important. Like, metaphysically, I don't need to be

John Dehlin [00:15:00] endorsed, but I like to feel like I'm part of something meaningful.

Zilpha Larsen [00:15:04] Like somebody's pulling strings to help you to a certain goal.

John Dehlin [00:15:09] Not even pulling strings.

John Larsen [00:15:12] Watch out, she's setting a trap for you.

John Dehlin [00:15:14] No, it's good.

Zilpha Larsen [00:15:14] No, no.

John Dehlin [00:15:15] I'm just trying to. I don't. Like I said, it's just as probable that there's nothing there. And I'm aware that I'm probably most likely manufacturing this. But I choose to call myself a believer because I choose to believe that there's meaning and purpose in all this. And I felt some type of support that I can't really describe. Though I'm aware that that might be completely a product of My imagination. I'm just happier to. It'd be nice if there was an afterlife for a while.

John Larsen [00:15:46] For the first 50,000 years.

John Dehlin [00:15:49] No, I'm with you. So I hope you sense that I don't denigrate or demean the atheist or agnostic position.

John Larsen [00:15:56] Feel free. A lot of atheists are assholes. Okay, so what about Joseph Smith?

John Dehlin [00:16:01] We're going straight to Joseph, huh?

John Larsen [00:16:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:03] Did you skip anybody?

John Larsen [00:16:05] I was thinking about my testimony.

Zilpha Larsen [00:16:07] Gov, you gotta go with Jesus next.

John Larsen [00:16:10] All right. So are you a Christian?

John Dehlin [00:16:13] I like a lot of the teachings. I have no idea whether Jesus existed or not. Anyone who says they know is just. It's a matter of faith. I think the probability that Jesus actually lived and was resurrected is probably really low. And I'm actually not invested in that. And I've told this to my bishop and stake president. As far as I'm concerned, what I believe about Jesus is that those teachings of love and patience and forgiveness more often than not lead to good things. So I like those teachings. Just the very simple ones. I don't like it when he curses olive trees or says that he's here to separate mother from son or whatever it is that he says. But those teachings about love and patience and forgiveness, I dig. So in that sense, I call myself a Christian, but I'm not invested in a resurrection. If it happens, that'll be fantastic.

Zilpha Larsen [00:17:06] And an atonement.

John Dehlin [00:17:07] Yeah, the atonement. I don't. I just don't understand. I tell my bishop and stake president, I don't understand the atonement. This idea that we gotta. We gotta punish someone for a bunch of other people's mistakes, that just bothers me. The fact that it's even necessary bothers me. And trying to do the math to make it all add up, I don't even like the idea that we should feel bad for our mistakes bothers me.

Zilpha Larsen [00:17:34] So the idea of sin in and of itself doesn't really jive with you?

John Dehlin [00:17:38] No. I try and live as righteously as I can, but the idea that God makes us imperfect and then we're supposed to beat ourselves up over our imperfections just seems screwed up to me. I think this life's about making mistakes and learning from them. We should all do the best we can, but beating ourselves up over it doesn't make sense. And punishing that guy over there for what I did doesn't make sense at all. And so none of that makes sense.

Zilpha Larsen [00:18:00] What about evil? What about Satan?

John Dehlin [00:18:03] No, I don't have any belief in Satan or evil. I Think people do evil things, evil's in people's behavior, but I don't think they're angels or some demonic force trying to tempt us.

John Larsen [00:18:16] So let's go back to the second most important man who ever walked the earth, Joseph. So, and I mean this sort of comes at the foundation of Mormonism. So where do you place Joseph?

John Dehlin [00:18:32] I believe that the same nebulous God that I talk about that exists, if it exists at all, then why not that it had a positive influence or some basis of inspiration for Mormonism. So I'm fine with saying that to whatever extent that he did good, that Joseph was inspired by the same God that I believe in and that somehow Mormonism is informed by some type of inspiration along with a bunch of messed up stuff. But I also give that to other religions and to atheists and agnostics and secular organizations too.

Zilpha Larsen [00:19:10] Anyone who ends up doing something good for humanity or the world is probably inspired in some way.

John Dehlin [00:19:17] Yeah, very loose bell curve.

John Larsen [00:19:20] So if we were to draw a bell curve of like, you know, American religions of their value, we'll just leave it loosely defined as value. Where do you think Mormonism is? Is it in the middle pack with everything else or is it, does it, is it harmful? And so it starts sliding to the left on that bell curve or is it better than the most and it starts sliding to the right. Where do you think Mormonism stands?

John Dehlin [00:19:44] I think Mormonism has a bimodal distribution of benefit and harm. I think for the people that benefits, it benefits them extremely well. I think society has benefited tremendously by some aspects of Mormonism. And I think when Mormonism causes damage, it's an extreme form that's very painful and severe. That's my answer. It's a bimodal distribution.

Zilpha Larsen [00:20:08] I like that.

John's Relationship With Church Leadership

John Larsen [00:20:10] So you've talked before about meeting with church authority or being called into your stake president and all that. What's your relationship with the church today? And I don't mean religion, I mean the church.

John Dehlin [00:20:24] Oh, I attend church maybe once a month, sometimes twice a month. Usually just sacrament meeting. I can't go to Sunday school and I sometimes go to elders quorum. I don't have a temple recommend right now. I'm temple worthy. Except I don't pay tithing and I don't pay tithing because I don't know where the money goes. And I've told, I offered, I went in to see if my stake president would let me baptize my son and I told him I don't pay tithing. And he said why not? And I said, the mall and Prop 8 and all sorts of stuff. And I said, you know what? Stake president, if you'll tell me where my money goes, I'll pay my tithing directly to you. He wouldn't do it.

John Larsen [00:21:07] He didn't know.

John Dehlin [00:21:07] But I. No, no, I said, I'll give you my tithing check if you'll just let me know where it goes.

Zilpha Larsen [00:21:12] He doesn't know where it goes.

John Dehlin [00:21:13] No, no. He could spend it.

Zilpha Larsen [00:21:16] Oh, he can spend it.

John Dehlin [00:21:17] Yeah.

Zilpha Larsen [00:21:19] Pay for scouting.

John Dehlin [00:21:20] If the bishop would just tell me what my money was going for, I'd be willing to pay it, but he wouldn't take my money.

Zilpha Larsen [00:21:25] The mother daughter dinner.

John Dehlin [00:21:29] But anyway, I love the church. I call myself a semi active, semi believing kind of Mormon in a very loose sense.

Zilpha Larsen [00:21:37] So you still feel like your identity is tied up in Mormonism?

John Dehlin [00:21:44] My identity is completely tied up in Mormonism. My kids, we've told them everything about Joseph Smith and polyandry and peep stones and DNA in the Book of Mormon, and they still like going, you know, and so we don't want to just tell them they can't go. And so we go every once in a while and we support them and love them. And I usually feel some good things when I go to church. I'm past the point of anger.

John Larsen [00:22:10] But how do you get past the point of boredom?

John Dehlin [00:22:12] That's what I. I play hangman with my son during sacrament meeting, and then I perk up when something interesting is said.

Zilpha Larsen [00:22:20] And when you say something interesting, you mean something bizarre or something really good or both? Both.

John Larsen [00:22:27] Does your ward know that John Dehlin attends their ward?

Zilpha Larsen [00:22:30] Do they have any idea of what that means?

John Dehlin [00:22:32] Most just think I'm scary and they don't know what I do.

Zilpha Larsen [00:22:37] They just have some kind of reputation of being.

John Larsen [00:22:40] Your countenance has dropped and they feel icky.

John Dehlin [00:22:42] I'm a dark influence. Yeah. But very few know what a podcast is or. And then a very, very few have ever listened to, but some do. I'd say four or five in my ward. Listen to the podcast.

Zilpha Larsen [00:22:57] That's cool.

John Dehlin [00:22:59] Yeah.

John Larsen [00:22:59] Well, that may be good. That may be bad.

John Dehlin [00:23:02] Yeah, we'll see. Yeah, right.

Zilpha Larsen [00:23:05] If they're willing to listen, that's probably good.

John Larsen [00:23:08] So you've talked today about. You've had talks with your stake president. So have they tried to discipline you or what's happened there? I mean, what. Why have you been talking to your state president?

John Dehlin [00:23:23] Several months ago, I got called in. Well, there was a whole investigation on me. Basically, my elders Quorum president got nervous about something that I tweeted. I basically tweeted from General Conference based on my knowledge of psychology. I bet the church would see a decrease in pornography use if they would just stop talking about pornography so much. I tweeted that he saw it. Actually his wife saw it. Made her nervous. She told him. He went and told the bishop during pec. I think we need to be worried about this John de Lynn guy. So my bishop launched an investigation into me without telling me. So he got a member of the Stake High Council who you know, and then my elders, quorum president to do a full on several month investigation where they spent hundreds of hours listening to my stuff, reading my stuff, monitoring my stuff and taking extensive notes. Parallel to that, the stake president read an article in the New York Times about my trip to the Book of Mormon musical and he started an investigation on me. And all this was happening without my knowledge. So make a long story short, I found out about it. I got really mad. This one member of the Stake High Council was actually trying to join a private forum to get private access to my friends and communications. It was really kind of CIA, FBI, kind of creepy. But the outcome, that's probably the most

Zilpha Larsen [00:24:47] exciting thing he got to do all year.

John Dehlin [00:24:49] Yeah, yeah, maybe. But in the end, my stake president exonerated me and said we find no reason to take church action at this time.

John Larsen [00:25:00] Do you have any inclination that he escalated? Did he call higher authorities and ask him what to do?

John Dehlin [00:25:06] I don't have any inclination that he

John Larsen [00:25:07] did because most stake presidents are not dummies. And the idea that he saw your name in the New York Times should have hit a light bulb and said, I don't know if this is above my pay grade.

John Dehlin [00:25:17] He should have said, well, not just that, but immediately. What I did is I put a post on Mormon stories that said if any of you want to write a message to my church leaders and let them know. And 500 people wrote my stake president within a matter of like a few days. And before I ever met with them, I pointed him to that blog post and he read about a third those comments. So I think he knew that it, you know, it would be a non trivial event if he were to take action. Yeah, but I also, my brother told me that an apostle pulled him aside after a meeting and told him to tell me that church headquarters has had no involvement in this investigation.

John Larsen [00:25:58] For our listeners who don't know, your brother Joel used to be the

John Dehlin [00:26:03] chief information officer.

John Larsen [00:26:05] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:26:05] Yeah, so. And I believe him. I don't think the church headquarters had anything to do with it. I think it was a local matter,

Zilpha Larsen [00:26:12] but apparently they knew about it.

John Dehlin [00:26:15] Yeah, but that might have been Joel telling them that the investigation was going on. It may have been. Joel told the apostle, the apostle looked into it. The apostle came back and said, but I'm speculating. Joel doesn't tell me who he talks to.

John Larsen [00:26:29] So does the church keep its eye on you?

John Dehlin [00:26:33] Probably not that much. We're small fish, right, John?

Zilpha Larsen [00:26:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:36] Aren't we small fish?

John Larsen [00:26:37] Well, I mean, the church doesn't give a rip about us because we're on the outside. Right. And the church has spent all of its energy trying to.

Zilpha Larsen [00:26:44] Although we're still technically members, so we have, you know, visiting teachers. And so we're not completely on the outside. I'm just saying we're not. We haven't resigned. We're not ex.

John Larsen [00:26:55] I'm saying that the church doesn't, doesn't pay attention to apostates that.

Zilpha Larsen [00:27:00] That much, and we would be seen as apostates.

John Larsen [00:27:03] Right, but. But you're more inside than we are. You can cause them more stress. Because most, I think that they, they condition most Mormons. Now, let me first put a caveat saying I think most of our listeners go to church every Sunday, but they, they condition them to not listen to anything that's, that's uncorrelated. Right. And you're kind of skirting in their territory a little bit. So. So I'm saying we're outside their wheelhouse.

Zilpha Larsen [00:27:30] John's definitely not correlated, but we do tend to take a more negative position. Right. It's more scary.

John Larsen [00:27:39] I don't think people confuse us with, with the regular church stuff, but your stuff, it's a little bit more confusing.

John Dehlin [00:27:48] Yeah. I'm intentionally trying to, to be a safe place for people to initially learn the information and feel comfortable going there. And I don't say I've always been sensitive to not wanting you guys to feel like I'm calling you negative or unsafe, but I want to build a bridge so that people can get all the facts, get all the information, and then make an informed decision.

John Larsen [00:28:17] Well, I think it's a useful paradigm, and I know this has gotten us. Got us in trouble before, but, you know, I'll jump on it anyway. Are unsafe in the rhetorical stand that we take is that we'll put the information out there and then people who want to put on their big boy pants can come in. And knowing that there's a full spectrum of people and people who have different Desires and tolerance and things that get offended at. And so we're not trying to be purposely offensive, nor are we trying to be unsafe for those who want that. But this is just. This is our spectrum and this is your spectrum. And they're fine. They don't contradict each other, even though they don't fully. I mean, they overlap partly, but not completely. And I think that's understandable.

John Dehlin [00:29:04] And I think we're both needed.

Zilpha Larsen [00:29:05] Yeah, we are, but I'd rather be in our position because it feels like sometimes you have to sort of pussyfoot around, and I wouldn't want to do that personally. Like, it would make me feel like I couldn't just put myself all the way out there in a completely honest and open way. Do you ever feel like that?

John Dehlin [00:29:27] Well, I actually try to be really honest about where I am. Like, you can go back to, like, episodes 30 to 32 of my podcast, and you'll hear most of the same things I just told you back in that episode. So I've tried to be honest, and I've always been honest with my bishop and stake president, like, but, yeah, I'm in this nebulous position that's really uncomfortable. What's hard about my position is apologists hate me and ex Mormons hate me.

Navigating Critics, Apologists, and Ex-Mormons

John Larsen [00:29:55] Apologists hate everybody. You can't court that crowd.

Zilpha Larsen [00:29:59] Yeah, but it is hard in your position that a lot of ex Mormons. I'm not exactly sure why.

John Larsen [00:30:08] Well, I think hate's a little strong word, but let's dive into that a little bit.

Zilpha Larsen [00:30:12] Maybe it's more annoyed. Maybe they don't think it's necessary to try to be safe. But I think you're right, because I think a lot of people need that safer place to begin understanding these things and looking into them. And they don't even know what they're supposed to be learning or looking for because they have no idea what's even out there. So there has to be some kind of starting place.

John Dehlin [00:30:46] No. For so many Mormons, is it anti Mormon? I'm turning it off. And it's by their definition. So you want to. For the people who want to learn, you want to feel as safe as possible. Now, I'm not trying to fool them. My goal isn't to have them leave. My goal is for them to get all the facts. So I don't feel like I'm trying to deceive them, but I don't want to have them turn me off before they even listen.

Zilpha Larsen [00:31:15] Right. So you have to be more careful about what you Say and who you have on and what the discussions are on your. On your boards and stuff like that. Right?

John Dehlin [00:31:25] Yeah, except the content. I mean, like Michael Coe, this Yale anthropologist, it was all about the Book of Mormon from his perspective not being credible. I feel like I've had Grant Palmer, and I feel like I hit the tough issues. I just, I try and interview in an objective way, and I try and have that balance where if I do Palmer, I do Bushman, so that. So that they'll always get the sense that I'm trying to be fair and balanced.

John Larsen [00:31:50] Is one Palmer worth.

John Dehlin [00:31:52] Worth a Bushman?

John Larsen [00:31:53] Is that the exchange rate?

John Dehlin [00:31:56] Yeah, it's kind of. That's right. Yeah. What is the exchange rate?

John Larsen [00:32:01] So the ex Mormons, you. You take an inordinate amount of verbal abuse from people out there. And I know when it, when it gets directed at me, which it does from time to time, it hurts.

John Dehlin [00:32:18] Yeah.

John Larsen [00:32:18] I mean, to be, to be blunt,

John Dehlin [00:32:21] you know, it hurts a lot if,

John Larsen [00:32:22] if you're, I mean, if you're like Rush Limbaugh and you're going back to your seven million dollar mansion and, and your trophy wives or whatever, I'm sure that dulls the pain a little bit. But I think we mentioned this. We heard an interview with Robin Williams a little while ago, and you assume that he's. And you haven't seen him a lot lately, and that's because he gets his feelings hurt and he retreats.

John Dehlin [00:32:48] The comedian.

Zilpha Larsen [00:32:49] Yeah. He puts himself out there, and then if people criticize him or make fun of him, then he gets really sensitive to that and he has a hard time putting himself out there again.

John Dehlin [00:33:00] Yeah, yeah. I've been through severe bouts of podcast depression.

John Larsen [00:33:05] Yeah, yeah, yeah, we have, too. Probably not as bad, because I'm saying what we get is minor compared to what you get.

Zilpha Larsen [00:33:11] Well, and then we always have each other to bounce, you know, bounce back up from. You know, if we were just, you know, solo, it would be hard to keep going and going and going after being put down and abused.

John Larsen [00:33:27] Yeah, it's way hard because the benefits. I mean, we're having a big pity party, but the benefits of doing something like this are not as big as what people think. I mean, we don't make a lot of money.

Zilpha Larsen [00:33:38] We're really not.

John Dehlin [00:33:39] The financial benefits are not there. The social benefits.

Zilpha Larsen [00:33:43] There are. Social benefits are amazing because people. And we've said this before, we're. We. We used to be. And we've gotten a little better, but we used to be extremely shy and kind of the ones that if we ever were at a party, we'd kind of huddle in the corner together, not really sure what to say or didn't know how to meet people. But now people will come up to us and say, hi, I'm so and so. And I, you know, and it gives us something to talk about and some a way to connect. So social benefits are huge.

John Dehlin [00:34:14] That's awesome. It's really rewarding. It's just personally rewarding to be a meaningful part of someone's faith journey.

Zilpha Larsen [00:34:21] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:34:22] And help alleviate pain. Let me just say quickly what's hard about the post Mormons for me is that they don't realize how they. And we share so much. We have so much in common. If their goal is to get people out of the church, I at least get people to the point where they know a lot of the facts and have the chance to make that decision. Now, my goal isn't to nudge them in that direction, but I sometimes don't understand why they can't see that I'm on their team. To some extent. I just don't go that far to say I want them out. I want them to be fully aware. And as we all know, being aware is a very dangerous place to be for activity levels. Right.

John Larsen [00:35:06] So of all the different sort of media outlets that you and we all have, where you have board discussions and Facebook groups and stuff like that over the past few years, you've had to. Or you've chosen to take kind of a heavier editorial stand, meaning that you've banned or gotten rid of quite a few ex Mormons. So those guys, once you get rid of them, jump over to whatever other board and then they're going to unload. Right? Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:35] I try not to ban people, but I hope that people can see that if the conversations on my Facebook page or on the Mormon Stories blog are rants and sort of angry, then it's just going to turn people off. And it just defeats the whole purpose of why I exist. And so if people just can't have a civil discourse, someone can say, I don't believe that Joseph Smith's a prophet of God, or I believe that Joseph Smith, you know, was an adulterer. That doesn't get him banned. What gets them banned is that they say, you know, Joseph Smith was an ass, or, you know, the church is a cult, because that's not a level of discourse that is sustainable for the audience I'm trying to reach. That's all. I just wish people would be cool if they could be cool and get what I'm trying to do. Play along and help, help me be successful. Don't get mad at me and say that I'm being like the church and authoritative and controlling because I have very different goals. I'm not trying to line my pockets or push people one way or the other. I'm just trying to provide a safe place for people to explore. So help me out.

John Larsen [00:36:39] We try to be as open as possible. We're very judicious. We've had to ban people and anybody does this out there, I don't care if you're running an anarchy site, you're going to have to ban. Because there's an important reason Your, the personality of your, whatever endeavor it is gets shaped by the people who are on it. And if you just, if you open it up completely to anybody can say anything, then it will take on a personality that's separate from, from what, what you, what you want. And if you watch the board, you know, some of the boards I've been watching for years, and if you watch something like Post Mormon, the board gets a whole new personality about every six months. And with Post Mormon's mission, that's fine, but you'll see people who get, oh, this isn't what it used to be. If I'm up to it, I PM and say, just wait a few months and it'll change. But it's a difficult thing because you're right. If you let all the ex Mormons come in, especially when they're in that bombastic, sort of iconoclastic phase where they want to tear all that stuff down, it's, it's a healthy response, don't get me wrong. But it will change the personality of those, of those avenues to where people fresh out of the church don't feel. Now, the hard part where I think you got Mission Impossible is the people in the church can be just as bombastic. You know, it's like this is water and oil. And members, like all apologists or others don't like certain, certain things to be said, just like ex Mormons don't. And they just this middle ground between the two. I don't, I don't know if you can achieve that.

John Dehlin [00:38:21] No, I don't spend a lot of time even reading comments on my Facebook page or Mormon stories for that very reason. I just scan stuff to see if they're disrespectful on either side. And I ban plenty of apologists. Disrespectful believers like, you know, post Mormons and ex Mormons need to Realize that I ban both sides. It's whoever's being disrespectful.

John Larsen [00:38:40] Well. And they need. They need to realize. I brought this up before, but RFM basically shit cans everything I put up.

John Dehlin [00:38:46] Me too.

John Larsen [00:38:47] So apparently Mormon expression is way too faithful for rfm. So, I mean, every pole out there in the universe gets their core, and then they have to maintain the boundaries. But what I think is hard from my looking at what you're trying to do, is the boundary keeping you guys are trying to do for the reasons you've outlined seems extremely difficult.

John Dehlin [00:39:10] Yeah. Yeah. And I can't keep up with it. So I've focused less and less on moderating discussions and more and more on just letting the podcasts do what they do when these people are in the privacy of their own home. And I'm not super invested in moderating other than just for basic extremes.

Zilpha Larsen [00:39:26] Right.

John Larsen [00:39:26] Right.

John Dehlin [00:39:26] Yeah.

John Larsen [00:39:26] Yeah. And as it grows, you know, I. I no longer read every single post, but I scan them. Every. Every post coming to our board sends me an email and I'll scan through it, but I just. I don't have the time or energy to hit all those. And you know, it's. And it's as. As the shows or whatever grow. Even the. When I talk to the mods of some of the boards, you know that they'll tell me, hey, I used to read every post coming across the board, but when we grow, I can't do it anymore.

John Dehlin [00:39:51] Remember those good old days of flack and the foyer and New Order Mormon where you could really stay on top of it? You knew everybody.

John Larsen [00:39:59] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:59] Those are the good old days.

John Larsen [00:40:00] Well, the boards each, they have a half life. They. They collapse and sometimes they. They resurrect themselves. Sometimes they don't.

John Dehlin [00:40:06] They do.

John Larsen [00:40:07] And we're in a change social media and how it's all. Because what I think is really fascinating and this. This plays out for the. The podcast and stuff. When we. When we all started back, back when everything was anonymous, you were one of the first guys to really come out with your name and, and you, in that aspect, were an inspiration to me because I realized that. That there was something. There's an ownership of owning your own identity that way. And that was extremely rare back then, but now a lot of the. The energy is moving over to Facebook where people are tied to their real identity.

John Dehlin [00:40:42] Yeah.

John Larsen [00:40:43] And that. That's changing things both for good and for bad.

John Dehlin [00:40:45] I like it overall.

Zilpha Larsen [00:40:47] It's healthy.

John Dehlin [00:40:47] Yeah.

John Larsen [00:40:48] I agree. Yeah. I think it makes people deal with the real Issues more and people can't. There used to be a lot of people putting on Personas.

Zilpha Larsen [00:40:57] Yeah, well, they still do that. And, you know, it's a little bit annoying. The joke. The joke. Identities on Facebook, I get kind of tired of those.

John Dehlin [00:41:08] I don't friend fake people anymore.

Zilpha Larsen [00:41:11] I only do occasionally if I.

John Dehlin [00:41:13] If you know the person.

Zilpha Larsen [00:41:14] If I know the person or I watch them for a while to see what kinds of things they're posting. But overall, I don't like the practice.

John Larsen [00:41:22] I have friends who come to me and do it. It doesn't bother me. They do it. It's just Facebook. I'm sure it's like. It's almost like a job because it's an extension of what we do, you know? So Facebook is more of this managing Mormon expression than is my own personal life. And yes, I'm not complaining, but so, you know, it's just one more thing to fuss about, you know, it is.

John Dehlin [00:41:44] It's crazy to keep on top of everything.

Mormon Stories as a Community and Movement

John Larsen [00:41:46] All right, so let's talk about, you know, Mormon Stories is. And was a podcast, but. And you've made reference to. It's become more than that. So what. What is it? You've. You've got. You've got the regional groups, you've got your conferences, you've got whatever else you got your hands in, and that all

Zilpha Larsen [00:42:04] comes under an umbrella of Open Stories. Is that right?

John Larsen [00:42:07] The Open Stories Foundation.

John Dehlin [00:42:09] I was going to call it Mormon Stories foundation, but the lawyers told me the church could sue me even if they didn't have grounds. It would cost me legal fees to defend myself in court by using the word Mormon.

Zilpha Larsen [00:42:19] Oh, my gosh.

John Dehlin [00:42:20] So they recommended I steer clear of that, and that's okay because I'd worked for MIT with the OpenCourseWare foundation, and if we ever make this bigger than just Mormonism, it can encompass something bigger.

Zilpha Larsen [00:42:30] Yeah, that's sort of the way we went.

John Larsen [00:42:33] Yeah. Our foundation is called Whitefield, so it doesn't even have Mormon expression or Mormon or anything in it. So that's understandable. So let's start at the top. What is it you're trying to accomplish? Why all these extracurricular activities? What are you trying to do?

John Dehlin [00:42:48] We're just trying to create a space within Mormon culture such that thoughtful Mormons, liberal Mormons, progressive Mormons, ex Mormons, post Mormons have a little bit more comfort, a little bit less stigma, a little bit less pain, and can kind of move about in Mormon circles without such a high cost for being different from the norm. That would be the way that I would describe the overall mission.

John Larsen [00:43:19] So you guys do things like have opening prayers and sing hymns and have testimony, and why all the trappings of the church? What's that all about?

John Dehlin [00:43:32] Well, I don't know. I loved my experience, my traditional experience growing up in the church. The hymns still inspire me. When I sing the hymns, I'm uplifted, and I still enjoy prayer. And so I guess part of it is we just love that. But part of it is, again, we're appealing to people that are right coming out of the church. Don't you guys feel uplifted when you hear. When you guys did your thing and you sang your hymns, didn't.

Zilpha Larsen [00:43:58] Not exactly uplifted, but it was fun.

John Larsen [00:43:59] The drum was cool.

John Dehlin [00:44:00] Okay, so when you're like, have you guys gone to see music in the spoken word or gone to General Conference ever?

Zilpha Larsen [00:44:06] We do the General Conference every.

John Dehlin [00:44:09] Do you go?

John Larsen [00:44:10] Yeah, I go to priesthood session.

John Dehlin [00:44:11] So when you're standing there and everyone's singing, you don't feel good.

Zilpha Larsen [00:44:13] We love singing in a group, but I just don't really know if I want to be singing Mormon hymns anymore, like as.

John Larsen [00:44:20] No, I get the hymn part.

John Dehlin [00:44:21] Okay.

Zilpha Larsen [00:44:24] But some of the hymns do have things in them that I don't feel inspired by.

John Dehlin [00:44:30] So we pick our hymns very carefully, and we pray. Most of the prayers done at our conferences pray to Mother and Father in heaven or to God in a generic, neutral way. But let me just tell you, I don't think religion's going anywhere. Part of the reason why we want to be religion friendly is because I think 70, 80% of the population still believes. And I just did an interview with Jana Reese for Mormon Stories. Her parents were atheists, and she rebelled against them by investigating religions and converting to Christianity. It's not a foregone conclusion that our children will be secular.

John Larsen [00:45:07] I agree with that.

John Dehlin [00:45:08] And so why fight the fact that mankind tends to want to believe? Why not just embrace at least a generic God and integrate that in for the majority of the people who are going to feel comfortable plugging into that sort of discourse? So, on the one hand, we want people to feel safe, want believers to feel safe, and on the other hand, why not embrace the fact that the majority of our people are going to like God anyway? I just repeated myself.

John Larsen [00:45:41] No, it's good.

John Dehlin [00:45:45] And if you define God generally enough, broadly enough, just doing good and being inspired to do good, then it doesn't have the trappings of exclusive religion and abusive patriarchies.

Zilpha Larsen [00:45:59] Well, that's what we just Signed our son up for Cub Scouts. And, you know, the little. The oath that they have to do, and it says, you know, that they'll be. What is it? Do their duty to God. So that's basically what I told them, is that for us, God means doing good.

John Larsen [00:46:19] I told him he could pick his God. So the duty to Thor is a lot different than.

Zilpha Larsen [00:46:26] One thing I wondered, John, is why. I mean, I can see being. Being tolerant and even taking pleasure in praying and, well, singing. Singing is a different thing than praying, I guess. But what. I mean, why start a meeting with a prayer if it's not necessary? Like, would people really miss it if it wasn't there?

John Dehlin [00:46:51] That's a good question. I think it just feels familiar. It's just.

Zilpha Larsen [00:46:57] That's how you start a meeting in Mormonism.

John Dehlin [00:46:59] I think we're just doing it because that's what we're used to doing. But we're trying to do it in a way that's friendly to non believers or to alternative believers, but then it's not.

Zilpha Larsen [00:47:11] I mean, when I was in Girl Scouts, we went to a church, I think it was a Protestant church, and they would say prayers, and I never really felt like that was my God that we were praying to, because the person who was praying would use like, you know, dear God or something that wasn't familiar to me. So it's not familiar to the people who, you know. It's not familiar to Mormons when you say, you know, dear God or Father and Mother in Heaven. I mean, so it's. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:47:43] Well, we're hoping it's for those who are traditional Mormons. We're hoping it's one step away from familiarity, but still close enough to feel somewhat familiar. And we're hoping that for people who are secular, it's enough steps closer to them to where they can go. Okay, it's not what I do, but I'm not offended by it. So we're trying to, again, walk that middle line.

The Big Tent Vision and Its Challenges

John Larsen [00:48:06] Let's go back to the big tent, because for some reason, people ask me about what you're doing all the time. I don't know why they think I keep tabs on you, but I don't think most ex Mormons. I mean, there's dicks out there wherever you go, but I don't think most ex Mormons are offended by you. I think more ex Mormons are confused as to what exactly you're trying to accomplish. I guess one of the questions is, is there a big tent? For one thing, if you have a place that's comfortable for, say, liberal Mormons, but who believe that Monson is a prophet and people who've rejected the entire Mormon paradigm. Is there really any common ground?

John Dehlin [00:48:46] Well, there's probably some common ground within Mormon stories, the Open Stories foundation, but I absolutely believe there's common ground for a larger cultural movement. I don't ever envision a time where there's a reform Mormonism like there is in Judaism, where it's the predominant actual sect, you know, chapel, that people attend as a reform Mormonism. But I absolutely believe that if ex Mormon, post Mormon, New Order Mormon, Mormon expression, Mormon stories, Sunstone, you know, coffered books, whoever, if we all banded together to create a cultural movement within Mormonism, we could penetrate Mormon consciousness and have an exponentially higher impact on alleviating pain and encouraging Mormon enlightenment than any of us will be able to do individually.

John Larsen [00:49:35] So I'm with you on that, but I don't know what that looks like. So maybe you could explain to us, like in your vision, like, you know, because if everybody takes their pound of flesh out that they can't stand, it doesn't seem like there's anything left.

John Dehlin [00:49:47] What do you mean?

Zilpha Larsen [00:49:50] People have different issues.

John Larsen [00:49:52] If we say there's a Mormon, the shared Mormon culture between all these people, and that's what the core you're getting at. It seems to me that if you were to draw that Venn diagram, there's nothing left in the middle. What, so in your opinion, what's left in the middle that we share?

John Dehlin [00:50:08] Oh, well, I think we all have an interest in the church's history, being as widely known and distributed as possible. That's safe, right? Yeah, we have a mutual interest in people who want to go on a faith journey of exploration, having full empowerment and support in doing that. I think we all have full support in mixed orientation marriages, getting support and encouragement such that less marriages are unnecessarily destroyed by these crises of faith.

John Larsen [00:50:38] You said mixed orientation. You meant mixed faith orientation.

John Dehlin [00:50:41] Yeah, that's right. Sorry, you're right. I think we all. I think we all support the LGBT community and want to see less Mormons putting guns, less gay Mormons putting guns to their heads.

Zilpha Larsen [00:50:52] Probably most. Probably not all.

John Dehlin [00:50:56] Most of us have shared some type. Right? Not all. Most of us have shared this journey. I have the same journey as pretty much any ex Mormon in terms of feeling set up, lied to, betrayed, and then having to deal with that collateral damage. So we share this.

Zilpha Larsen [00:51:11] I do think we have that in common.

John Dehlin [00:51:13] We absolutely have that in Common. The only difference is some of these people chose. They needed to leave, and I chose to stick behind to help others in the way that I can help others maybe most effectively. But when I meet an ex Mormon and sit down with them in a cafe or in a lunch table and we have a conversation, it's like we're best friends immediately. So we have a ton in common. It's just I've decided to kind of stick around and help from within.

Zilpha Larsen [00:51:39] So how do we use that commonality, those commonalities that you just mentioned, to create something that will, like you said, penetrate the consciousness of Mormonism, to make some kind of difference in the way Mormon culture is?

John Dehlin [00:51:59] I think we need to have annual. I think we need to have Mormon Palooza. I think every year we need to have a conference that's like Sunstone on steroids, where all the. All the tribes come together and maybe each of us has a track at the conference and we talk about all these issues, and I guarantee there's enough overlap and interest and concern. But we don't just stop at exploring intellectual stuff. We have the best in Mormon artists, we have the best in Mormon musicians. We have fun, we have dances, we have, you know, parties. And it's just a celebration of Mormon culture where there's a lot of thought and exploration involved. But whether it's psychological issues, depression, marriages, eating disorders, homosexuality, church history, pop culture, we all care about that stuff, don't we?

John Larsen [00:52:49] So I guess the question you've brought up Sunstone a couple times. You know, the question comes to my mind is, hasn't this been tried before? I mean, what you're describing to me sounds like Sunstone, but Sunstone is bleeding.

John Dehlin [00:53:02] Yeah, yeah, Sunstone's awesome. And, you know, the world is changing and Sunstone is trying to figure out how to adapt to the. To the world. And how is this different from Sunstone? Yeah, I think I'm really confused about what the difference is between Sunstone right now and what dialog is right now. Because when I open Sunstone, I see 6, 8, 10 page articles with like a page worth of footnotes. And I ask myself, how is that really different from Dialogue? Where is a magazine that celebrates uncorrelated Mormon culture that's like Oprah or People magazine, that's just broadly relevant on the most, you know, finances, you know, health, education, pop culture. Where's that magazine? Right. That's what I think Sunstone should be, but it's not. It's still oriented mostly towards the intellectual crowd. And I want to be Smart. I think Oprah magazine does a great job at this. They have PhDs, always writing their feature columns. But what we need is a magazine and a conference that's oriented towards meat and potato Mormon issues, not trying to be intellectual. That's my opinion. I've talked to Mary Allen and Steve and other people at Sunstone about this, but they still, they have that heritage of trying to be intellectual that they still really value. And they should, if that's what their priority is. But shouldn't that magazine exist?

Zilpha Larsen [00:54:29] Yeah, it sounds fun.

John Larsen [00:54:31] To be honest with you. I still can't get. I still can't get the vision of it.

Zilpha Larsen [00:54:36] I can get the magazine idea.

John Larsen [00:54:37] The roots that we all come from. Mormonism is so didactic. It's so everything is good or bad. It's black or white. You either he's either the prophet or he's a fraud. I mean, that's what they say all the time. And I don't know how you can bring these diverse groups together without a core uniting value. And I don't know what that value is. And I have to admit I'm kind of dense. So I'm not trying to argue with you. I'm just saying I have a hard time. I'm with you. I think it sounds cool, but I'm having a hard time understanding. I think a lot of people out there are. I mean, what is that we share? If there was a conference where Fair and Mormon expression were there, we both share. The intellectual part is the one part we both sort of share. So if we pull that out, what's left that we both share?

John Dehlin [00:55:26] Right. Well, fair is a tough example. I don't necessarily feel like I want to try and reach out to FAIR to bring them in, but let's say the Sunstone crowd, the Mormon stories crowd, your crowd, ex Mormon, post Mormon, New Order Mormon, all the feminists out there, what do we share? So we bring Eliza Dushku or who's the lady that wrote the New York Halloween Ball, Ella Baker or Richard Dutcher. You know, we talk about pop culture, we talk about politics. We bring on people who can talk about Mitt Romney in an interesting and exciting way. We talk about mental health issues, we talk about financial issues, we talk about raising kids in a 21st century world. We just talk about. About sex education. You know, just anything that kind of. We just talk about with a Mormon lens.

John Larsen [00:56:18] That's all it sounds like, you know, Mormon studies is. And, you know, if you take, you know, gay and lesbian studies or women's studies, it's not all intellectually. They talk about culture and all that kind of stuff. And for ex Mormons, it's hard because a lot of them move on. They don't. The intellectual spark or the interest in Mormonism is a transitory state. Most Mormons don't have it. They don't know their own history. They don't know their own culture. They don't understand that. Then it sort of bubbles up when they have problems in the church and then it goes away. And it's a transitory audience that we're dealing with. And I don't mean that in a negative way at all. You know that. Just what it is.

Zilpha Larsen [00:56:58] But they're always. Especially if they were raised in the church, they always have some vestige of their Mormon ness, and they usually have family members that are still Mormon. It always comes back, and you can't shed the skin completely.

John Dehlin [00:57:15] It's like a Jew. It's just like. I mean, it's not just like Jews, but it's very similar to Jews. A Jew is. You can't tell a Jew they're not a Jew, even if they haven't stepped foot in a synagogue in 20 years. And I think we've got something like that. It's different, but I think we've still got that. And we can unite around that. And it can be a beautiful thing, maybe for our generation, one more generation to come, and maybe it all dies out in two or three generations. But, like, just knowing people like you guys, it's like, these are the coolest people I'll ever meet. Like, the people that we've gotten to know are like soulmates from the start. Why shouldn't we be spending as much time together as possible rejoicing in what we love? Because these are cool people, and we think about and express things in cool ways. Why not spend as much time together as we can, rejoicing in the fun things that we share?

John Larsen [00:58:06] You guys are.

John Dehlin [00:58:07] You guys are already doing.

Zilpha Larsen [00:58:09] Sounds like maybe a party.

John Dehlin [00:58:12] Yeah, it's a party.

Zilpha Larsen [00:58:15] We can buy into that.

John Dehlin [00:58:17] It's a party.

Zilpha Larsen [00:58:17] Parties are fun.

John Dehlin [00:58:18] And drinking is totally acceptable.

Zilpha Larsen [00:58:21] All right, we're there.

John Dehlin [00:58:22] Yeah, I just don't drink yet. Maybe someday, but not yet.

John Larsen [00:58:27] You'll be disappointed when you do.

John Dehlin [00:58:29] It's not that. It's not that cool.

Zilpha Larsen [00:58:31] It's fun. I mean, it's fun to do in a group of people. It's a social lubricant.

John Larsen [00:58:36] I mean, let's be clear. Like, smoking. Smoking candy cigarettes is cool. It looks cool, but it's just Stale gum, you know, so let's not confuse looking cool and, you know, of value. So, you know, having it. Having a scotch in your hair, a brandy snifter and a smoking jacket, it's cool. But if the brandy may not taste that good to you. That's all I'm saying.

John Dehlin [00:59:01] Gotcha. Gotcha.

Zilpha Larsen [00:59:03] But there. I mean, that's not to say it's like stale gum, because you can acquire a taste for it and then it's quite.

John Larsen [00:59:09] But you all buy into my point that candy, cigarettes with that powdered sugar that you could blow out are cool. Can you still get those? Maybe Czechoslovakia or something?

Zilpha Larsen [00:59:19] No, you can buy them on Amazon.

John Larsen [00:59:21] Yeah, we need to give those out as a door prize.

Zilpha Larsen [00:59:26] You made you adults.

John Dehlin [00:59:27] You guys are already doing what I'm talking about, by the way.

John Larsen [00:59:29] I don't. Not very effectively.

John Dehlin [00:59:30] Now, that event you just had with, like, bagpipes and people singing and. It was a party, right?

Zilpha Larsen [00:59:36] Yeah, yeah, Yeah, I guess.

John Larsen [00:59:38] I suppose.

John Dehlin [00:59:39] Yeah. I just think that if we found a way to do it together and instead of having a few hundred people at our respective events, had 5,000 people at an event that we all put together. 5,000, absolutely. 10,000. Like, someday there's going to be mass appeal for what we do. Let's face it, we're in the majority.

John Larsen [01:00:01] The Jack Mormons are in the majority. The Jack Mormons are people who have

John Dehlin [01:00:04] either left the church or don't believe in the church or view the church in a little more progressive way. Add all those people up, it's like 80% of everyone who's ever been baptized Mormon.

John Larsen [01:00:12] Yeah. Or more.

John Dehlin [01:00:13] Right. And so that's a. That's awesome. We've got the numbers on our side. We just need to bring the people together and they'll come. You know, we need to plan the event.

Zilpha Larsen [01:00:23] Well, it is true that there are a lot of people out there that feel very isolated and, you know, the social events are very important.

John Larsen [01:00:34] They are. But a lot of. We know we get email from people saying, I really want to come to your event. But I didn't. Just couldn't drop the courage, you know?

Zilpha Larsen [01:00:40] Yeah. But eventually they will.

John Dehlin [01:00:42] We got to keep doing it.

Zilpha Larsen [01:00:43] Yeah.

John Larsen [01:00:44] Yeah. I don't know. It's an idea. I think the general appeal out there is. I think we want to. Let me take a step back. I think more so than the information that we're putting out there about the church, I think we share a goal of there's people who are suffering, there's people who are in pain, people are looking for others to help them and we want to facilitate that. In a sense, it's like medicine. It's not for everybody. It's for whoever has whatever ailment and they need that medicine for. You know, I'm not going to try to get everybody to take penicillin all the time, but it is yummy, especially the bubble gum flavored. But, but we want to build that sort of thing. You know, I want that the people aren't suffering anymore and, and we see those emails and those things coming in. But I, you know, so I guess I'm trying to say in a roundabout sort of way, this is the appeal for the. We need other people's help. You know, the few handful of people who schedule events. Can't. We can't do it all ourselves.

John Dehlin [01:01:45] Yeah, that's one of the problems, totally. But I like, I like the Lord of the Rings analogy. You had to get the hobbits and the elves and the dwarves and the humans and the rangers and whoever else together, and they were able to, you know, defeat Sauron. Now, I don't know that we're trying to defeat Sauron, but I think that if we band together, the, the aggregate will be greater than the sum of the parts.

Zilpha Larsen [01:02:06] The Fellowship of the Ring.

John Larsen [01:02:09] I mean, I'm still. I. When you, like, when you guys do a lot of religious stuff, then I don't want to go to your events anymore because I don't. I don't like that stuff that much.

John Dehlin [01:02:17] Okay.

John Larsen [01:02:18] I don't like it. I mean, it's boring.

John Dehlin [01:02:20] It's boring.

John Larsen [01:02:21] It's boring.

John Dehlin [01:02:23] You know the cool thing, those testimony things are pretty powerful because nobody bears testimony about the gospel. They just share their stories and the pain that they've experienced and the joy that they found in stepping outside the traditional bounds. Those testimony meetings are pretty powerful and they have nothing to do with. With the traditional testimony.

John Larsen [01:02:40] Well, that's what. There's support groups that need calm, and we, we don't even go to those very much anymore because it's a. It's a transitional. It's a transitional phase. So.

John Dehlin [01:02:51] Okay, so when we have Mormon Palooza, I'm cool with there not being any prayers or hymns.

John Larsen [01:02:56] You can have prayers and hymns and we'll have our booth.

John Dehlin [01:02:58] No, no, no. We're going to have a key. We're going to have a day of keynotes where Mormon celebrities come and speak. And I'm saying that we can have fun music in between his bumpers. There'll be no prayers, and we can just Enjoy. Fantastic keynotes.

John Larsen [01:03:13] Let's say something that I think is important to say right here because of what I'm thinking. The ex Mormon world and I include you in that, or the transitional Mormon world or the life beyond uncorrelated is hierarchical because that's how things get done, not because that's the way we want it to be.

John Dehlin [01:03:35] Sure.

John Larsen [01:03:35] Meaning if you want to criticize us for, you know, having people who are in charge or these person, you know, you're talking about like these alpha personalities. The alpha personalities are so just because that's what they do. It's not because we're looking for followers. We don't need any followers. We don't. There's nothing to follow. So. So we want a bigger tent with more voices and to reject that sort of thing saying, no, we don't want to be John de Linites or Mormon Expressionites or I don't even know what that means. So I'm not, you know, we're not looking for followers. And if there's other people and other voices from different points of view, I think we all want to encourage that totally.

John Dehlin [01:04:16] Like, so the small things I do, we kind of have a first presidency in the Open Stories Foundation. It's me, Ann Peffer and Joanna Brooks. I wanted women running the organization. So they run the day to day operations of our foundation. We have a policy where in our conferences only women preside and conduct or gay men. We don't have any white males conducting or presiding over our conferences. So we're just, we're trying to do all we can to be as egalitarian as we possibly can. But you know, like you said, is

Zilpha Larsen [01:04:47] that fair to the, to the white men?

John Dehlin [01:04:49] Well, no, they've had their day in the sun.

John Larsen [01:04:53] We try to react that way and I'll call it a reaction where we try to get more women voices. And I would think that if you have the regular people appear on Mormon expression, there's as many or more women for that. Because we come from a very patriarchal organization and we sometimes tend to fall into those roles and that's difficult. That's that thing I was talking about where our core values, the culture we share, a lot of it is poisonous. So we want to develop, we want to run around the maypole, but we don't want to bring the bad with us.

John Dehlin [01:05:24] Yeah, yeah, but I'm with you. I don't want, none of us want followers. We just want to alleviate the pain and have a lot of fun. The medicine analogy is okay. It's good but it doesn't include the party part. Like, it's not just. We're not just here to cure the sick.

Zilpha Larsen [01:05:38] Okay? It's whiskey, you know?

John Dehlin [01:05:42] Exactly. For those who are sick, they get the painkiller or they can clean the sores with it. Yes, yes, but then they can also party with it.

Zilpha Larsen [01:05:50] Right? It's multifunctional.

John Dehlin [01:05:52] Nice, nice, nice metaphor, Zilfa. Nice job.

The Future of Mormon Stories

John Larsen [01:05:55] So five years from now, John de Lynn, what does Mormon stories look like? What are you doing?

John Dehlin [01:06:01] Oh, instead of 70 local communities, we have 250 across the world. Conferences are happening annually in all these cities. In all these cities, there's a large vibrant series of book clubs and playgroups and dinner groups and social organizations where hundreds of these uncorrelated Mormons in each individual city are fellowshipping and supporting and loving each other. We're having annual conferences, Mormon Palooza, with Mormon expression and all the other members of the community united. We have a series of books that, that speak to all these topics that we care about most. We penetrate Mormon consciousness such that we wrestle Mormon culture away from the institutional LDS Church. Mormonism becomes defined more broadly as a culture and there's just more space for non traditional people such that you can exist in a ward, you can speak openly and you're not ostracized or alienated. And every ward sort of understands that there's a group of liberal or progressive or even non believing people in that ward and they're allowed to engage at a certain level without so much stigma and ostracization. Less marriages are terminated prematurely based on faith or religious issues. Less gay people are putting guns to their heads and pulling the trigger over suicide. And we're having a lot of parties and fun. How's that?

Zilpha Larsen [01:07:39] Sounds fun.

John Dehlin [01:07:40] Yeah. Yeah. And Mormon Expression and Mormon stories have 50,000 listeners and subscribers instead of whatever we have now.

John Larsen [01:07:49] Oh, I thought you were adding them together. I don't know. I don't know how we only can track downloads. Have you figured out a way to track subscribers?

John Dehlin [01:07:56] I don't know if it's accurate or not. Yeah, that's my vision.

John Larsen [01:08:01] There's a lot of people listening out there.

John Dehlin [01:08:03] And notice none of that had to do with the church institution actually doing anything differently. They can do whatever they want to do. I just care about the hearts and minds of the people, not what the leaders do.

John Larsen [01:08:14] Yeah, you know, I've been called. Everybody who says anything even marginally outside the correlation will be called Anti Mormon. But I will happily own the title of being called Anti Church. I'M definitely anti church. I don't like the church at all. But, you know, I'm a Mormon. It's my culture. It's my. My people, my family. I think the doctrine is fun. I'm not anti Mormon doctrine, not anti Mormon history. History is just what it is. You can't really be anti or positive historical events, so. But anti church? Yeah, sure. Sign me up.

John Dehlin [01:08:49] And you're not anti Mormon in terms of the membership, because the membership's awesome, right?

John Larsen [01:08:53] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:53] The believers and the non believers.

John Larsen [01:08:55] Yeah.

Zilpha Larsen [01:08:55] Yeah.

John Larsen [01:08:56] I like Mormons.

John Dehlin [01:08:57] Yeah.

John Larsen [01:08:58] Yeah. Especially when they bring me baked goods or whiskey.

Zilpha Larsen [01:09:03] It hasn't happened yet, but no whiskey. Forward to it.

John Dehlin [01:09:06] All right, listeners, someone send John Larsen and Zilpha Larsen a bottle of whiskey. Does whiskey come in bottles?

John Larsen [01:09:12] It does.

Zilpha Larsen [01:09:13] We'll show you one.

John Larsen [01:09:15] All right. Well, John, is there any last message you want to put out to the world? Put out to the universe?

John Dehlin [01:09:20] No, just. You guys are awesome. I love Mormon expression.

Zilpha Larsen [01:09:24] It's.

John Dehlin [01:09:25] It's just so well run, and it's doing great things, and I'm honored to be here and thank you for all you guys are doing.

John Larsen [01:09:31] Well, the honor is mutual. We're happy to call you our friend. So, you know, we. We get a chance to talk every couple months and, you know, we've said it before. We'll keep saying it. You know, there's no. There's lots of room for everybody. There can be more podcasts, there can be more voices, and there's no competition between us. Except maybe forget we don't even compete for guests much anymore. I can't remember when the last time that sort of came up.

John Dehlin [01:09:57] Just. What's her name? Emily Pearson.

Zilpha Larsen [01:10:02] Oh. Oh, are we competing?

John Dehlin [01:10:04] No, no, no. I tried to get her to do an interview with me a couple years ago.

Zilpha Larsen [01:10:08] Oh.

John Dehlin [01:10:08] And then she told me, you guys want to interview her soon. And I said, yeah, whatever. Do whatever you want.

John Larsen [01:10:12] Well, she just put out a book. Didn't you guys just interview her?

John Dehlin [01:10:15] No. Oh, not Emily. No, Carolyn. We did over the summer. Oh, I don't know why I wrote that up. I've got. I've got dibs on Emily.

John Larsen [01:10:22] Other than that, there's no. There's no. I don't. There's no problem with this running back. You know, the beginning, I would say to the. To the guy, and that's behind the curtains. Well, you know, I said, we're not in competition, but if Delin just ran something, we'll sit on it for a couple. And now I don't Care.

John Dehlin [01:10:36] Yeah.

John Larsen [01:10:36] You could run the same thing the same way.

Zilpha Larsen [01:10:38] I mean, that's so many different things.

John Larsen [01:10:40] Authors will go from same person, you know, from. Yeah, yeah. You know, who, who cares?

John Dehlin [01:10:45] I just said Johnny Carson.

John Larsen [01:10:47] It's because you're old.

John Dehlin [01:10:49] I am old.

John Larsen [01:10:50] All right, well, it's been a pleasure to have you here.

Zilpha Larsen [01:10:53] Thanks, John.

John Larsen [01:10:54] And hopefully all the comments, our message board won't be really super caustic because you seem to be a magnet for hostile.

Zilpha Larsen [01:11:03] Yeah, we don't need a lot of hostile comments on, you know, when it's about people. Why? If it's about an issue, fine.

John Larsen [01:11:14] Zilpha's told me I can't call people douches or dicks anymore. I can say they're acting douchey or they're being dickish.

Zilpha Larsen [01:11:21] Nobody is a douchebag. Nobody is a dick.

John Larsen [01:11:26] That's what you think. All right, well, it's been a pleasure having you here. And as always, the story continues at Mormon Stories. What's your exit line? Do you have an exit line?

John Dehlin [01:11:38] Thanks for joining us on Mormon Stories.

John Larsen [01:11:40] And it's MormonStories.org yeah, that's right.

Zilpha Larsen [01:11:43] And the discussion continues@mormonexpression.com and we all

John Larsen [01:11:47] have, like, lots of. There's lots of Facebook groups and there's energy behind those. There's the Mormon expression ones are the Mormon stories ones. And you can get in these little. They're closed groups and no one can see what you're doing. And you can find out there's people all around that, you know, I, I was really impressed a couple years ago. I don't know if you still say it. You said friend me.

John Dehlin [01:12:04] Yeah.

John Larsen [01:12:05] On Facebook because then you'll see other friends that you have that have done the same thing.

John Dehlin [01:12:08] And it's becoming a problem because I have 4200 Facebook friends and they stop it at 5000. So if you guys, you have to

Zilpha Larsen [01:12:15] be like John de Lynn, too.

John Dehlin [01:12:16] Yeah, that's right. No, but I've had brothers and sisters that didn't know they were both sort of non traditional LDs discover that each other were different through friending me.

Zilpha Larsen [01:12:26] Oh, that's awesome.

John Dehlin [01:12:27] Members of Wards, family members, former missionaries.

John Larsen [01:12:30] It is so satisfying, and it's happened to all of us. It is so satisfying meeting somebody from your past. You realize it's like a reunion. It's like something out of Saturday's Warrior. When you get to meet people that you really. And you said that before. And I think if there's any argument for the big tent, it's that we have all shared this experience, both from the inside the church and more importantly, that separation. No matter where we ended up, we all shared that sort of trauma. And I've used the example before in. In the movie Constantine. You ever seen Constantine?

John Dehlin [01:13:05] No.

John Larsen [01:13:05] Keanu Reeves. Reeves movie. The only Keanu Reeves movie I like. But there's this. There's this. This club called Papa Midnights, where all the fallen angels and all the fallen devils can go. And they're the only ones that can get in.

John Dehlin [01:13:18] Nice.

John Larsen [01:13:18] Because they're the only ones who. Who understand. And that's. That's what we're creating. We're creating Papa Midnights.

John Dehlin [01:13:24] I like it.

John Larsen [01:13:25] All right.

John Dehlin [01:13:25] I like it. Thanks, guys.

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