Welcome and Opening Music

Part 1 of 5 · Ep. 356

Guest [00:00:00] 1, 2, 3. Come, come, ye saints. No toil nor labor fear but with joy wend your way.

Katrina Anderson [00:00:19] Welcome. We're so excited to have you all here at our second annual Salt Lake City Mormon Stories Conference. It's really fun to see everybody. My name is Katrina Anderson. I will be conducting this first session today. I'd like to thank everyone for being here, for supporting this community.

Katrina Anderson [00:00:40] This past year and a half that I've been a part of the Mormon Stories community, I've made some of the best friends of my life. I have. We've had book groups. We've had play dates. We've had lunches and dinners and service projects and barbecues.

Katrina Anderson [00:00:59] We've laughed together and we've cried together a few times. I've shared my story and I've listened to your story. And one of my buns is unbuttoned. That's embarrassing. There we go. I have found some of my people here in this crazy and marvelous state of Utah. We come from different families in different places, but the one thing we all have in common is that we are each on a journey where our own Mormon story is still being spun. For many of us, this is a journey filled with hills and forks and crossroads. Maybe the path looks long and straight before us.

Katrina Anderson [00:01:40] Maybe we are clearing new paths through tall grass and weeds, searching for a trail that feels right. Often, traversing these new paths can feel very lonely. But each of us here today is lucky. We're lucky because we found Mormon Stories. We found this community who understands.

Katrina Anderson [00:02:00] And that is a miracle when your whole world has been turned upside down. Historically, Mormons have not always been great at creating spaces where people of different beliefs can meet together and safely express themselves. This community aims to create that space.

Katrina Anderson [00:02:18] We hope that this conference will allow for a safe, authentic expression. We know that differences of belief can foster conflict in families and friendships. Online, I think many of us have seen that we want this community and this conference to be free of that conflict. A place where we can put aside the cultural notion that we must all agree on belief and practice in order to enjoy a common, safe space.

Katrina Anderson [00:02:44] Any one community member's expression of belief or practice does not necessarily indicate that other community members share that belief or endorse that practice. When needed, we can simply agree to a disagree and choose to enjoy others expressions, even if they do not match our own. I'd like to direct you to the back of your program where we have a list of the shared value statement for Mormon stories. And I'm just going to Read that list 1. We acknowledge the richness of Mormon heritage, teachings and community in all of its diversity.

Katrina Anderson [00:03:21] We believe that one can self identify as Mormon based on one's genealogy, upbringing, beliefs, relationships and other life experiences, regardless of one's adherence or not adherence to the teachings or doctrines of any religious organization. I didn't say two, but now we're on to three. Three. As we seek spaces where we as Mormons can live lives of intellectual and spiritual integrity, individual conscience and personal dignity.

Jana Reiss [00:03:51] 4.

Katrina Anderson [00:03:52] We acknowledge and honor different spiritual paths and modes of religious or non religious truth seeking. We respect the convictions of those who subscribe to ideas and beliefs that differ from our own. 5. We recognize the confusion, distress, emotional trauma and social ostracism that people on faith journeys often experience.

Katrina Anderson [00:04:10] We seek constructive ways of supporting people regardless of their ultimate decisions regarding church affiliation or activity. 6. We affirm the inherent and equal worth of all human beings. We seek spaces where Mormons and all people can interact as equals, regardless of race, gender or sexual orientation. In this spirit of egalitarianism, we prefer non authoritarian and non hierarchical means of organization and affiliation.

Conference Introductions and Acknowledgments

Katrina Anderson [00:04:37] I also want to take the chance now to just thank everybody who volunteered, who showed up early, who has been a part of putting this conference together. And I'm going to read a list of names which means that I probably forgot somebody. So I apologize first of all, just everyone whose name appears on this program. You're awesome. Thank you for participating, for performing and speaking today.

Katrina Anderson [00:05:03] Here's a list of names of people who helped out for this weekend. Lindsey Park, Whitney and Jeff Moulton, Sarah Smith, Letty Rockwell, Greg Rockwell, Jared Anderson, Chelsea Fife, Terry Wittenberg, Chelsea and Michael Archibald, Stephanie Nicklason, Lisette Smith, Meredith Lesor and Richard Holdman. And of course Ann and John. I don't even know where John is. Where is John? He's back there. Hi John. Thank you for all you guys do for Mormon stories. You guys are amazing and everyone who helped out today.

Katrina Anderson [00:05:41] Now to the program. We are going to have our non traditional prayer this morning, this afternoon by Christy Sedira. And then following the prayer we will have a musical performance by Peter Breinholt. And I'm going to give you guys a little intro on Peter because he deserves it.

Katrina Anderson [00:06:02] He is has sold out every major concert hall in the state many times over. His credits include six albums, a concert, dvd, guitar, songbooks, film scores, Pearl awards, songwriting awards and concerts with several symphony orchestras and choirs including the Motab. So we feel so honored to have Peter here today and he's going to be performing twice. But his first song is called Jerusalem, right after Christie's prayer. Okay.

Christy Sedira [00:06:37] Before I offer this prayer, I thought it would be nice if you could join hands and perhaps close your eyes and take a couple deep meditative breaths. As we gather together on this beautiful morning, we invoke the divine within the universe and within ourselves.

Christy Sedira [00:06:59] May this day be blessed with gifts, lessons, understanding, and friends. May we feel the pulse of all creation within us, and may our energy be a gift to all we encounter. Open our spirits to awareness that we may be filled with deeper understanding.

Christy Sedira [00:07:17] Help us to listen, to understand true motivations, and to recognize and follow the best path for us, knowing that we are each on this earth to have our own experience and have our own path to follow. May we live in gratitude for life and for living. May our lives be of service to our Mother Earth.

Christy Sedira [00:07:38] May we open our senses to the needs of those around us. May we be a joy to the sorrowful, a sea for the thirsty, a balm for the suffering, a home for the stranger, a haven for the distressed, and a defender for the victims of oppression.

Christy Sedira [00:07:54] Let integrity and uprightness distinguish all of our acts. As we show strength in spirit, courage in action, and gentleness in heart. Let us act in wisdom, conquer fear and doubt, and face each day with hope and joy as we discover all of our hidden gifts and find and live out our authentic selves.

Christy Sedira [00:08:16] May we come to know that place within one another in which the entire universe dwells, the place of love, truth, light, and peace. For when we honor this place within each other, it is then that we become one. Haribol Shalom. Amen. A woman. Namaste.

Guest [00:08:57] We're happy to be here, the three of us. When I got invited to do this, I thought of two people who would absolutely love to be at this conference. Not to perform, but to listen. And so I brought them both along. We got Mike Ensign over here on my left, and Mike Waterman over here on my right.

Guest [00:09:20] And the thing about this trio, we've been playing together for about 20 years, off and on. When we get together once in a while to rehearse, we spend about an hour rehearsing, playing music, and then about three hours talking about life.

Guest [00:09:43] And so it's really great for us. We're all fans of Mormon stories, so we're happy to be here. So we lay here to rest and so we lay here with the ground beneath our heads and not a word among us has been said My little child.

Guest [00:10:14] And now the dogs are barking tonight now the men will bargain as they sell it. We underneath the light. Everything gets colder here at night. My little child, I've never been so worn and weary I've never missed my love so dearly.

Guest [00:10:50] You my little child. Now I cannot forget the things I saw I cannot forget the way they gathered in the halls and standing all alone before them all. My little child, Somewhere there is a laughter tonight Somewhere there is singing in a choir in the light. But it's quiet in Jerusalem tonight It's quiet in Jerusalem tonight It's quiet in Jerusalem tonight.

Guest [00:11:59] My little child, I've never been so worn and weary I've never missed my love so dearly. My little child, We lay you at your rest and so we lay here with the ground beneath our heads. Not a word among us has been said. My little child, My little child, My little child

Christy Sedira [00:13:18] sa. Thank you.

Katrina Anderson [00:14:03] Thank you so much. That was beautiful.

Jana Reiss [00:14:06] I loved it.

Jana Reiss on Justice, Mercy, and Mormon Identity

Katrina Anderson [00:14:07] Okay. Our first speaker today is Jana Reese. She is the author, editor of nine books, including Flunking Sainthood, a 2011 book about failing at 12 different spiritual practices. And it's wonderful. I read it and it's available for sale here today. She is also currently working on the Twiball, a three year Twitter project with humorous daily Bible updates. She has a bachelor's degree from Wellesley College, a master's degree in theology from from the Princeton Theological seminary, and a PhD in American religious Studies from Columbia University. Jana is a religion and American Studies professor at Miami University in Ohio. She and her husband live in Cincinnati, and she also claims her spiritual director is Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Following Jana, Peter will be doing another performance, and then we'll go to that point. Welcome, Jana.

Jana Reiss [00:15:04] So it's a testimony to what an idiot I am that Peter came to speak to me and introduce himself a few minutes before he sang. And I said, what do you do? I'm so sorry. That was amazing. So some of you know that I converted to Mormonism when I was in seminary and that I went to seminary to become a Presbyterian minister. And I left seminary, neither Presbyterian nor a minister.

Jana Reiss [00:15:36] Since 2008, I've been working at Westminster John Knox, which is the publishing house of the Presbyterian Church. So today I feel like my worlds are coming together. It's a thrill for me to find myself at a pulpit in a Presbyterian church.

Jana Reiss [00:15:53] This is actually what I went to school for, and I never actually get to do this, so it's kind of a thrill. So in Presbyterian tradition, I decided to preach from a text. That's what Presbyterians do. Last summer, a man contacted me who read an interview that I had done with an evangelical blog about why I am a Mormon. He wanted to friend me on Facebook, but then also wanted to criticize how I represent myself on Facebook.

Jana Reiss [00:16:24] By the way, did you know that your faith is not listed on your public viewable info page on Facebook? He asked me. Under religion, my public profile just says Micah 6. 8, my favorite verse, which is what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God?

Jana Reiss [00:16:48] This reader questioned my use of Micah and seemed to think that I was masking my Mormon identity. Would it be so hard, he asked, to list the name of our church and then perhaps add that verse as a tagline.

Jana Reiss [00:17:03] I wrote back to thank him for seeking me out, because I always write back to thank people for seeking me out, and if a serial killer ever stalks me, I will thank him for seeking me out. But I defended my position. Micah6.8, I said, encapsulated my faith better than any label ever could.

Jana Reiss [00:17:23] Why is that verse so critical for me? Do justice, love, mercy, walk humbly. How much more basic can we get? These are words I aim to live by, words that I've come to love because of my own history, my story.

Jana Reiss [00:17:41] And today, as we gather here, I'm wondering, what is it in your story that has brought you to this place? It's been my privilege to hear from many Mormons and former Mormons who write to me now just because of that snarky, opening anecdote I really do like to hear from readers. Don't want to give you the wrong impression, and I'm most touched when they want to share their stories with me.

Jana Reiss [00:18:08] Sometimes people who are either in or out of the church have stories of pain. Many of you have been hurt, sometimes deeply. Some of you feel that you have been lied to. Whether this is about specific things in LDS history or doctrine, or more the kind of general if this this, then that formula that all religions try to teach that if we live a certain way and we don't deviate from a carefully laid out path, then our lives will be happy.

Jana Reiss [00:18:45] And some of you just sound tired, so raise your hand if this is you. Tired of being that person in Sunday school who says yes, but any takers? Yep. Tired of worrying about the bizarre gender messages your daughters are receiving in a church that insists, on the one hand, that girl?

Jana Reiss [00:19:12] Yes. That girls are equal, even preternaturally splendiferous, but then removes from them any administrative or ecclesiastical authority? Yes. Or maybe you're tired of trying to convince people that you didn't actually choose to be gay and have your family shun you and be discriminated against under the law because you thought that would be superficial fun.

Jana Reiss [00:19:39] So you're tired and sometimes you're angry. So the first thing I want to talk about is doing justice. When Micah was a prophet back in the 8th century BCE, he was particularly concerned with defending the rights of those who had been trampled on, not just by corrupt governments, but even by the religious establishment that was supposed to protect them.

Jana Reiss [00:20:04] Micah felt that religious folks were doing their fair share of the trotting on these downtrodden people. Today in North America, we're seeing some of this happening in the Roman Catholic Church right now. Nuns have been publicly chastised and stripped of their financial oversight because in the Vatican's eyes, they have been wayward.

Jana Reiss [00:20:25] They've been feeding the poor, supporting universal health care and equal rights for women. This is dangerous stuff to some of us in this room. The LDS Church hasn't always been on the side of justice. It's a rough place to be gay.

Jana Reiss [00:20:43] It has a difficult past with race relations, a past that still sometimes bleeds into the present. And this year I've been very concerned about the Church's investment of an eye popping eight figure sum into a luxury shopping mall here in Salt Lake City.

Jana Reiss [00:21:01] I don't think that that is what it means to do justice. I love the church and I want it to have a secure future, so I understand the need to invest some of its resources. But a mall that upholds such conspicuous consumption when 16,000 children will starve to death today is very hard to defend in the eyes of that guy.

Jana Reiss [00:21:31] I've been called naive for this view, and maybe it is naive to suggest that a church that bears the name of Jesus Christy should emphasize saving poor people's lives rather than enabling rich people to shop at Tiffany's. But I will continue to speak my mind because I believe in doing justice. And sometimes we all need reminders of how best to accomplish that. I struggle with materialism and knowing how much is too much for a disciple of Jesus in American society. It can be very difficult to get any perspective at all on that question.

Jana Reiss [00:22:06] On the flight out here last night, I was listening to the beautiful soundtrack for the movie A World Apart, which was a drama that was released in 1988, back when I was in college. During those years, in the late 1980s and early 1990s, apartheid was the issue of the day students protested that our college should divest its holdings from South Africa, a nation in which a small minority of affluent whites held all the power something had to give. I was sympathetic to the cause, but often too absorbed in my own preoccupations to be terribly involved. It seemed so far away.

Jana Reiss [00:22:46] That changed just a few years later because of a friend. When I was in seminary, one of my closest friends was a student from South Africa, I should say. He is now a Presbyterian pastor. So one of us, at least, is out doing what we're supposed to do from our education.

Jana Reiss [00:23:03] Bovey had grown up poor and black in Pretoria, and I loved to hear the stories of his childhood, which was so different from mine. I had never known oppression, never struggled under a yoke I could not remove. One story that Bovey told me has stayed with me.

Jana Reiss [00:23:21] When he was a teenager, he had the honor of being selected to travel with some other students from South Africa to Lesotho, which is a tiny country that's entirely surrounded by, but independent from South Africa. And one day in Lesotho, he was walking down the street and he heard someone shouting, mandela, Mandela.

Jana Reiss [00:23:43] And from the commotion, he thought that Mandela was actually there in the street in Lesotho, rather than breaking rocks in a prison on Robben island, which is where he actually was. It wasn't really Mandela. It was just a picture of him being sold by a street vendor in a stall.

Jana Reiss [00:24:02] Although Bovey had grown up hearing the stories of Nelson Mandela in hushed and reverent tones, he had never seen a picture of this man. None of the students had. Mandela's image was banned in South Africa, so none of the kids had ever even gotten to see the man that they were told was to be their leader.

Jana Reiss [00:24:23] Injustice. Now, less than a year after Bovi told me that story from his childhood, he went up to the South African consulate in New York to cast his vote for Nelson Mandela for president of South Africa. A group of South African students and one beloved professor, black and white, together, rented a van to travel up to cast their votes.

Jana Reiss [00:24:47] One night that week, a jubilant vovie came over to our apartment for dinner and told me about the joy of that whole experience. And at the time, we had a cocker spaniel who had all black, so we named her Halila, which in Hebrew is the night. And Halila in her cocker spaniel spastic exuberance, began jumping on Bovi, and he caught her paws, and he said, mandela is the president. He is black like you.

Jana Reiss [00:25:16] Which was one of the most joyful moments of my life. So all of these memories passed through my mind last night on the Airplane when I was listening to the score from A World Apart. It contains a stirring rendition of the song that was the voice of protest in the fight against apartheid. At the time the film came out, that fight sometimes seemed hopeless. Power and wealth were so firmly entrenched in the hands of a few Afrikaners that real democracy seemed impossible.

Jana Reiss [00:25:47] But just a few years later, the world had shifted. Justice had triumphed. That protest song, forged in suffering, had become the anthem of an entire nation. I almost cut this whole story from my talk this morning when I read it over, and I realized that it sounds like I am trying to equate the Church of Jesus Christy of Latter Day Saints with a very oppressive political system. I want to be really clear that that's not what I'm saying at all.

Jana Reiss [00:26:22] I just want to communicate that some of us have experienced pain at the hands of the church. There are many things about the church that I'd like to change, but there is no comparison. I bring up Bovee because he's an example of how I've been blessed to witness change in my lifetime, change that I hoped for but did not expect.

Jana Reiss [00:26:44] What's more, the miracle was that this transformation happened without war or bloody revolution. The world, if even just for a moment, trended toward justice. The new government of South Africa sought to combine justice and mercy with the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, which became a place for those who had been horribly wronged to tell their stories in the presence of their perpetrators.

Jana Reiss [00:27:14] But rather than retaliation, which would be human and very understandable, there was mercy. This is the second thing that Micah is trying to communicate to us. Love mercy, he says. What strikes me about this juxtaposition between justice and mercy is that I think Micah understood how easy it is for us to allow ourselves the pleasure of righteous indignation. It feels really good to be right.

Jana Reiss [00:27:46] When Micah said that we should love mercy and practice humility, I don't think he was only saying that we should help the persecuted, though that's part of it. I think he was also noting that we are required to love the ones that we see as perpetrators.

Jana Reiss [00:28:03] This is a hard, hard truth to anyone who has been wronged by injustice. And please note that I am never suggesting that anyone should stop working for justice or stop exposing injustice. We have to do that in order to create a better world. Battered women should not return to abusive husbands just because they want to be merciful and humble.

Jana Reiss [00:28:30] But it's our task to balance those things, justice and mercy, so that the cause of justice is advanced. But we aren't puffed up in anger. Personally, I find this to be a tricky path. I'm the sort of person who gets very passionate about justice, sometimes to the exclusion of mercy. My view of God has been very influential by the teachings of liberation theology, which finds God not in established religions or institutions as much as in people, especially people who suffer.

Jana Reiss [00:29:05] The Bible and the Book of Mormon to me are both texts that I see as trending toward justice. Sword of Laban notwithstanding, I heard a great talk earlier this year by Walter Brueggeman, who is an Old Testament scholar and theologian I admire. And he pointed out something I've never noticed before about the Book of Exodus. If you look all through the book, the name of Pharaoh is never given. We don't know who he was.

Certainty, Exodus, and Strategies for Faithful Mormons

Jana Reiss [00:29:37] Now, loads of people throughout history have tried to come up with this theory or that one to explain who might have been Pharaoh at that particular time. History. But Brueggemann says they're missing the point, which is discovered only when we look at who is named in the story.

Jana Reiss [00:29:55] Right at the beginning of Exodus, some midwives are commanded to kill all of the baby Hebrew boys that are born. They quietly refuse to carry out the order. And they lie to Pharaoh about this resistance, saying that the Hebrew women are just so robust that by the time the midwives arrive on the scene, the baby boys have been spirited away.

Jana Reiss [00:30:17] Those midwives had names. I can't actually pronounce them, but they have names. Probably Shiphrah and Puah. Now, it's not a coincidence that the Bible goes out of its way to name these midwives, these lowly women who became saviors of an entire people, while utterly ignoring which Pharaoh was which. It's a signal that everything to come in the Book of Exodus will be about the upending of worldly power.

Jana Reiss [00:30:50] Pharaohs are going to come and go, and one is so much like another that it hardly bears mentioning. But God is on the side of the oppressed, and the oppressed have names. I love that story, and sometimes I can see myself in it as a doer of justice.

Jana Reiss [00:31:11] But there's another part of me that is Pharaoh. Part of loving mercy, as Micah enjoins us to do, is remembering that we all have at least a little bit of Pharaoh in us as we share our stories of pain here today, which is a very important path part on the path to justice.

Jana Reiss [00:31:31] We can also remember that just having the privilege of gathering here today to talk about injustice is a privilege afforded only to those people who have pretty comfortable lives. We are midwives and we are pharaohs, part of loving mercy and walking humbly. The third part of Micah's equation is remembering that we are not always in the right.

Jana Reiss [00:31:54] But it is so hard to practice that kind of humility and questioning our own motives all of the time when we're surrounded by people who seem so very certain that they are in the right. Those people drive me up a tree.

Jana Reiss [00:32:09] And what's more, LDS culture encourages this kind of fixation with certainty and obedience. I've spoken before about my concern with the spiritual ramifications of an institutional church's insistence that it alone is an oasis of truth in a sea of half truths. I worry when the church wants its members not only to see it as true, but as the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

Jana Reiss [00:32:35] This encourages an all or nothing approach to truth. What happens in that dichotomous situation is the kind of story I keep hearing over and over again as I do preliminary interviews for a book I'm researching about growing up Mormon.

Jana Reiss [00:32:50] A common theme is that kids who grow up taught that kind of certainty is the only way to experience true religion have nowhere to go when there's so much as a chink in the armor. They follow the script they have been given and they leave.

Jana Reiss [00:33:07] Most people of faith discover at some point in their experience that they will have cognitive dissonance that disconnect when what they can see and observe with their own eyes is at odds with what they've been taught to believe.

Jana Reiss [00:33:22] One response is denial, or a knee jerk rejection of any new truth that conflicts with the old. We have to always keep in mind that cognitive dissonance is scary stuff sometimes. My own blog is a source of cognitive dissonance for some of my fellow Mormons. And it's not just my opinion that some conservative Mormons find alarming. Sometimes it's actually facts, verifiable facts that they insist could not possibly be true.

Jana Reiss [00:33:54] There's no room in their minds for some of the complexities those facts might raise, and so they won't assimilate them. Now, on my more mature days, when I consider such people and how they lash out at new ideas in their own obvious anxiety and pain, I try to compare their fear about changes in Mormonism to how I felt that terrible day in 2006 when it was announced that Pluto would no longer be a planet.

Jana Reiss [00:34:30] I went through all five stages of Elizabeth Kubler Ross Various stages, stages of grief, if you will indulge me. Stage one denial. What do they mean, Pluto's no longer a planet? Pluto has always been a planet. My whole life Pluto has been a planet. Pluto is in the planet song we learned in grade school.

Jana Reiss [00:34:55] You can't sing that song anymore if you end it with Uranus. That doesn't even rhyme. Of course Pluto is still a planet. Stage 2 Anger. That is not fair. Who do they think they are? These fancy astronomers with their fancy degrees and oh, they're oh no, that's just a dwarf. It's not a real planet. Jerks.

Jana Reiss [00:35:23] Pseudo intellectuals. We don't need them. Stage three Bargaining. I'm just sure that if Pluto were given one more chance to, like, beef up with protein shakes or something, that it could totally dominate its neighboring moons the way that a real planet is supposed to. It just needs some time. We need to give Pluto some time to grow.

Jana Reiss [00:35:49] Stage 4 Depression. Pluto is a dwarf forever cast into outer darkness. Not just metaphorically, but also literally planeta non grata. Stage five Acceptance. No, I'm not there yet. I'm still not over it. Disclaimer from Elizabeth Kubler Ross not all stages of grief will be experienced by all patients.

Jana Reiss [00:36:24] Clearly, I have a lot invested in the concept of Pluto. It has always been my favorite planet. And if it turns out that all of the speculative theology is true and we each get to be a God of our own planet, I totally call Pluto.

Jana Reiss [00:36:38] It's mine. I bring this up just to point out that the first response to cognitive dissonance is often a negative one. Deny the new truth, shoot the messenger, eliminate any source of confusion or conflict. A second approach is for the person experiencing cognitive dissonance to give up and disappear.

Jana Reiss [00:37:02] Some of you in this room have chosen this route, at least for now. One woman wrote to me recently about the hopelessness she felt. She was feeling like she was banging her head against the wall, praying for things to change in the LDS Church.

Jana Reiss [00:37:17] It grieves me terribly to hear those stories, because the church is so much lesser without her and without many of you. I grieve those stories, but I do understand them now. The third response is the one I would like to work toward myself openness to and assimilation of change.

Jana Reiss [00:37:41] So in my last few minutes, I want to suggest a few strategies for Mormons in and out of the church who are serious about doing justice, loving mercy, and walking humbly. Now I'm talking about the church, lowercase C, which is the great cloud of witnesses that includes anyone and everyone who has a stake in making Mormonism lovely and of good report.

Jana Reiss [00:38:06] As we strive to do justice, love mercy, and walk humbly, let's aim for the following Number one Don't hide conflict. I don't think that this one is going to be that hard, actually, for many people in Mormon stories. So I've started you with an easy homework assignment.

Jana Reiss [00:38:25] But it's not easy for everyone to be open and frank with. They have disagreements in the Mormon universe. I've had people tell me, and perhaps they've told you too. It's okay. If you have questions and doubts, that's fine. But it's not okay to talk about them or to write about them because you might lead other people astray.

Jana Reiss [00:38:46] This is the response of a terrified person, one who is alarmed at losing control. Be compassionate about that person fear, but also be honest about your issues and questions. The author of the Book of Ephesians taught us to speak the truth in love. Both parts of that are hard speaking the truth and doing so in love.

Jana Reiss [00:39:11] But when we encourage people to keep their doubts private, to not raise them publicly lest others ask questions too, we not only do violence to those individual stories, but also to the truths of our religion. I believe that Mormonism offers me beautiful truths that I have not been able to find anywhere else.

Jana Reiss [00:39:33] I believe strongly enough in that truth that I also know it never needs to be upheld by a lie. And discouraging people from voicing their truth is tantamount to a lie. So don't hide conflict or shove it under the rug. It will fester.

Jana Reiss [00:39:57] It will become more destructive. Speak the truth in love, and both truth and love will grow. Number two, Listen deeply. It's getting harder. Now. Your assignment. There are some people, though not very many, who are naturally good listeners. I think my husband is one of those people, and I wish the world had more people like him. I'm not like that. Listening is something I have to work very hard at doing.

Jana Reiss [00:40:25] Unfortunately, I don't get a lot of support for this practice in the LDS Church. We are not a listening church. We teach our children to talk to God without listening, and then we wonder aloud why it is that they are yet to be adults and they don't hear God speaking. Shocker.

Jana Reiss [00:40:43] We never trained them in spiritual discernment or how to hear God in the first place. We only trained them how to talk to God. This is also all too often how we treat each other. When someone comes in to see a bishop for counseling, the LDS default mode is to jump immediately to an action plan. In the best case scenario, this generates compassion listening. It might also involve a referral to social services and an admission that the problems the church member is Facing might require professional help.

Jana Reiss [00:41:16] In other scenarios, the bishop proffers advice that he is not typically qualified to render, or a task list of hoops to jump through to cure the individual's questions or doubts. I worry about this because I've heard too many stories of the of people who've been harmed by bishops who could have contributed to healing if they had only listened. The Church trains bishops in so many things. Why not listening?

Jana Reiss [00:41:44] I was introduced to these basic skills in divinity school. Unless you think I'm holding myself up as an example here, I should tell you I basically sucked at those skills because they feel very unnatural without practice. Like the typical LDS bishop. I just want to to fix things. Listening is much more challenging than fixing, so my seminary education often involved somewhat comical scenarios in which we applied the basic pastoral care concepts we learned in class into our daily lives. One of those was empathic listening, in which we would simply restate the observation or complaint of the person we were talking to without introducing evaluative judgments or an action plan.

Jana Reiss [00:42:28] So what I hear you saying is you are not happy with the spaghetti and meatballs we're having for dinner or so what I hear you saying is you'd like to introduce liturgical dance into sacrament meeting. This phrase became a standard joke to us because it was just so overused. But how much better is it to have the language of listening be overused than not used at all?

Jana Reiss [00:42:56] How much would things change if the Mormon rank and file felt truly heard? I was very heartened to learn of the wonderful model of Elder Marlon Jensen, simply attending event, I think it was in Berkeley, where else, in which he simply listened to the stories of homosexual members of the Church.

Jana Reiss [00:43:19] He wasn't there to be a celebrity or a speaker, just a steward of people's pain. What I've been made to understand about that event is that one by one, as gay members and former members of the LDS Church told their stories, Elder Jensen listened.

Jana Reiss [00:43:39] But if we want representative of the institutional church, Big C, to listen to us little Cs, then the people of the Ecclesia, the lowercase C church, have to listen too. So our homework assignment is to make it a priority to practice deep empathic listening to someone in authority.

Jana Reiss [00:44:03] Their lives are sometimes very hard and their responsibilities burdensome. As I think back on all the friends that I made when I was in seminary who are now pastors, they all have incredible support systems. It's hard enough to be a pastor, and many people burn out at it. But you know, they have days off, they have groups of pastors in their cities with whom they can be completely open and honest about what's really going on. Bishops have nothing like that. My friends who are bishops are some of the loneliest people I know.

Jana Reiss [00:44:36] They need to be listened to too. Number three, pray together often. So pretty much anytime I speak before a Mormon audience, you can expect that at some point I'm going to sneak onto my usual soapbox and wax on about how we don't know how to pray together.

Jana Reiss [00:44:53] So here I go. If we really want to become a people who do justice, love mercy, and walk humbly, let's take a lesson from you too. We get to carry each other. When I converted to Mormonism, I was dismayed by the total absence of any tradition of real group prayer. We don't have prayer groups or Bible studies where people pray out loud for one another. I can't tell you how deeply I missed this. When I went to the temple for the first time almost a decade after I converted to Mormonism, one of the things I was excited to participate in was something called a prayer circle.

Jana Reiss [00:45:33] Finally, now I understood the reason that we weren't doing this at the ward level is that it was going to be something special and sacred that we did in the temple. Oh my, was I disappointed. Suffice it to say that having a crocheted white box that has has been stuffed with anonymous needs does not a church bind together.

Jana Reiss [00:45:59] It's bizarre to me because our church does a wonderful job of training people in individual and family prayer. I think we really walk that walk, but we don't extrapolate from that that if the family that prays together stays together, maybe it's true for the congregation as well.

Jana Reiss [00:46:20] In our church, we have absolutely no models for meaningful, non formulaic corporate prayer. We're starving for them and we don't even know it. So if you are interested in prayer, your third homework assignment is to find at least someone that you trust. One person who's not a family member and pray out loud with that person. It's going to feel awkward at first, but just try it.

Jana Reiss [00:46:43] Tell each other your needs, your issues and concerns, and then pray out loud about whatever needs the person just voiced. Look for Christy in all people. This last assignment is a lifelong endeavor. We will be able to do justice, love, mercy, and walk humbly only when we can see the light of Christy in everyone.

Jana Reiss [00:47:09] Some people really make you hunt for it. Those people are extra blessings. If you've read Flunking Sainthood, you might remember that one of the spiritual practices that I tried was hospitality. Benedictine hospitality, welcoming the stranger as Christy. The Benedictines take literally that line from Matthew 25, that when we receive someone with a cup of of water, etc. We are actually receiving Christy in disguise. It's really hard to live that way. Last night on the plane, this guy came and I was thinking I'd have the middle seat and I could kind of stretch out. And then he showed up. Like, I'm supposed to think that you're Jesus.

Benedictine Hospitality and Closing Poetry

Jana Reiss [00:47:51] It's tough. I want to end with the last stanza of a beloved poem. As kings, Fishers Catch Fire. It's by Jared Manley Hopkins, the 19th century English poet and Jesuit priest. Please forgive the lack of inclusive language here. I would normally change it, but it ruins the rhyme.

Jana Reiss [00:48:15] So after spelling out in gorgeous detail the many places where we can see and find Christy in nature, Hopkins then turns to a more dubious source of the finding God in flawed flesh and blood human beings, he says, I say more. The just man justices, keeps grace that keeps all his goings. Graces, acts in God's eye, what in God's eye he is Christy.

Jana Reiss [00:48:47] For Christy plays in 10,000 places, lovely in limbs and lovely in eyes not his. To the Father, through the features of men's faces, Whatever your faith transitions, may you become the just person justicing May you find Christy in 10,000 places.

Katrina Anderson [00:49:10] Thank you.

Guest [00:49:30] Come, come ye saints. No toil nor labor fear, but with joy when your way though hard to you this journey may appear. Grace shall be as your day.

Andrew Ainsworth Opens Second Session

Part 2 of 5 · Ep. 357

Peter Breinholt [00:00:00] 1, 2, 3. Come, come ye saints no toil nor labor fear but with joy wend your way.

Peter Breinholt [00:00:23] Thank you, Jana. We're glad you flew. So often. I'll have people ask, what's that song about? What's the song about? And for many of the songs, I don't really know what they're about. I know the image I had in my mind when I started to write them. And the image on this song was a group of people, downtrodden, walking over the dirt roads and over hills and mountains towards Salt Lake. That's all I had. My dad heard it. My dad always has his own interpretations to my songs. He said, that's the Mormon Battalion you're talking about. Well, whatever it's about, I know it's at the very center of this song is a group of people who are on a journey together and they need each other to get to their destination. Songs called Songs about the Great Divide.

Peter Breinholt [00:01:39] That's when I saw him hauling away

Peter Breinholt [00:01:43] his own

Peter Breinholt [00:01:46] Saying something about the west. And next thing you're falling and falling

Peter Breinholt [00:01:57] down again

Peter Breinholt [00:02:01] Laughing about the things I said. And all this time I'm humming Songs about the great Divide but never knowing I fully up on the road now Go down through the hills the mighty wind won't take us down. Suddenly call and calling back again

Peter Breinholt [00:02:41] oh

Peter Breinholt [00:02:42] to join our little town. Now I've seen rivers shine and I've been taken back before Rio Grande is arising who could be right Fighting someone else's fight who could be wrong and unbelieving that's enough to know to keep your head down low and take that time oh, never mind, Never mind.

Peter Breinholt [00:03:40] Now it gets colder here at night as the stars give us light as we huddle around the fire Thinking all that we're a choir Then we'll shine across this land Taking hopeless in our hands with the mountains and the forest on the road that lies before us all this time I'm humm. In songs about the great divide Never knowing how fully who could be right Fighting someone else's fight who could be wrong and unbelieving I know that's enough to know now to keep your head down low now and take that time oh, never mind. Never mind. Never mind. Never mind la. Never mind.

Peter Breinholt [00:05:22] Thank you.

Katrina Anderson [00:05:34] Thank you so much, Peter. Peter has to run off. Thank you. Now we have the pleasure of hearing from Andrew Ainsworth. He comes from Orange County, California. He's an attorney, he has four daughters. He's a longtime Mormon Stories listener, former blogger for Mormon Matters, and he's even done a few interviews for the podcasts. He also comes from a long Mormon heritage that goes back to Joseph Smith. So we're really excited to hear from Andrew today and he will be our concluding speaker for this session and then we will have a short break. Andrew,

Andrew Ainsworth [00:06:25] Good afternoon. I'm so happy to be here with you and I really look forward to meeting you and I'm going to try to speed up that process because I know when we meet you're going to ask what happened to your hand. So I'll just tell everyone right now. So I only have to have that conversation once.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:06:45] Short story is rock climbing unexpectedly turned into cliff diving and had wrist surgery on Tuesday. I didn't take my Percocet today though, so this will probably be coherent. Last year, a teenage girl living in a remote part of Afghanistan was severely beaten and condemned to death.

Ideology, Family Division, and the Golden Rule

Andrew Ainsworth [00:07:10] Her crime? Using a cell phone to talk to a boy in private, a sin worthy of death by her village's religious standards. When the family discovered she had a cell phone, her brother beat her. After the beating, the girl's family informed her that dinner would be her last meal because afterwards they were going to have to kill her to restore the family honor.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:07:32] Terrified, the girl put on a male family member's coat, slipped out of her house, and fled to a nearby American military base, where she was given refuge. Over a year later, she's not dared return home to her family.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:07:46] As backwards and barbaric as this family's religious views may seem, the frequency of news reports about so called honor killings suggest there are thousands of people, maybe even millions, who likewise believe that a teenage girl deserves death at the hands of her family for something as seemingly innocent as talking to a boy on a cell phone.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:08:05] For many people in the world, obeying God's law, or more specifically, obeying their religious leader's version of God's law, is what's most important in life, even if that means having to beat or kill a family member. When I hear disturbing news reports like this, I'm reminded of a line from the movie Inception.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:08:26] What's the most resilient parasite? The protagonist asks. And then he answers his own question. An idea. A single idea, can build cities. An idea can transform the world and rewrite all the rules. An exaggeration? Not at all. How many of us in this room have ancestors who built cities like Nauvoo or Salt Lake City, collectively inspired by the idea of building Zion?

Andrew Ainsworth [00:08:54] But as this news report illustrates, the ideas that bind us together can just as easily tear us apart. Our ideas about God can bring us together as couples, families and communities, but they can just as easily turn brother against sister, parent against child, husband against wife. An idea like worthiness, an idea like sin, an idea like divine punishment.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:09:18] After hearing this news story, I was troubled by it for days. I imagined this girl growing up as a child, cherished by her family. I imagine the sweet times they must have shared growing up together, playing games, being silly, joking, laughing.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:09:33] I imagined her brother protecting, comforting and caring for her, only to one day suddenly turn on her, to beat her in righteous indignation and to condemn her to death for committing a sin that most people in the world did not recognize.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:09:48] Such is the power of an idea. Of course, turning against family members for perceived violations of God's law is not a phenomenon unique to certain fundamentalist sects of Islam or remote regions of Afghanistan. To this day, religious communities like the Amish, Jehovah's Witnesses and fundamentalist Latter Day Saints formally shun members who turn from the one true faith, cutting off all contact even with their own family members.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:10:16] In the television documentary series Amish out of Order, a teenage boy named Jonas leaves the Amish community and gets his driver's license when he has a traffic accident a few days later, his parents refuse to visit him in the hospital.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:10:31] Some in the Amish community say his car accident was God's punishment for leaving the true faith. Jonas injuries are so severe he has to spend weeks in the hospital to heal. After his close brush with death, Jonas returns home to visit his Amish family. But when he arrives home, his parents ask him to leave, telling him they fear his presence in the home is a spiritual threat to their other children.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:10:55] It took several weeks for Jonas flesh and bones to heal, but I wonder how long it will take for his heart to heal from being shunned by his parents and separated from his siblings. When a BBC reporter recently made a documentary about Mitt Romney and the Mormons, several former Mormons informed the reporter that all too often Mormons shun their family and friends who leave the LDS Church. When the reporter asked Elder Holland if the Mormon Church shuns people who leave, he responded, no, no, of course not. We don't use that word and we don't know that practice. Elder Holland went on to say that even as a church leader, he would never cut one of his own children out of family life over religious differences.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:11:34] Elder Holland's response raises an important question. If the LDS Church does not use the word shun and does not know that practice, why do people who leave the LDS Church report that they feel shunned by their LDS family and friends.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:11:49] In April of last year, I formally resigned from the LDS Church. Since then, my relationship with a few of my closest family members has become virtually non existent. It would be unkind and unfair of me to share specific details about our family conflict without their having an equal opportunity to do the same. And I cannot see anything productive that could come of that. Anyway, I mention my current estrangement from them only to explain why I want to find a solution to the religious conflict that is tearing our families and our world apart.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:12:21] What I do want to make clear is that the family members from whom I am currently estranged are what you would call good people. They try to live their lives the way they believe is right, they try to help others when they can, and they try to be loving and kind to others.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:12:36] And it probably won't surprise you if I tell you that I think I fit that description as well. So how do good people develop bad relationships with each other from their religious perspective? My decision to resign from the LDS Church was an inexcusable act of selfishness and betrayal, and it deeply hurt them.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:12:56] And when anyone feels pain or fear because of a family member's decision to leave the faith, whether it's in a Muslim, Amish or Mormon context, it is only natural for believers to feel a duty to reprove the apostate with sharpness, calling him to repentance for his perceived violations of God's law.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:13:15] And just as naturally, when so called apostates follow their conscience out of the family faith and find themselves on the receiving end of sharp reproof, they feel misjudged and mistreated, and they feel justified in responding with sharp reproof of their own.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:13:30] And so it begins. An eye for an eye, a sharp word for a sharp word. And the downward spiral continues until the relationship is destroyed. In these tragic scenarios of feeling betrayed and hurt, of rebuking and retaliating, there are no heroes or villains.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:13:48] There are only victims and casualties on both sides. Each side's perception and reaction to the other is perfectly justified from their own perspective. Is there any way out of this mess? Is there any way to throw out the bathwater without the baby?

Andrew Ainsworth [00:14:05] Is there any way to discard the ideas that tear our families apart without discarding the ideas that bind us together? I propose discarding just one idea. Of all the ideas in the world, the most pernicious one, the most destructive to human life and human relationships, is the sinister idea that our ideology is more important than each other.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:14:43] Ideological conflict has torn the pages of human history for ages. An ideology is a body of teachings and beliefs that provides its adherents with a comprehensive way of viewing their place in the world and their purpose in life.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:14:57] Any religion fits the definition of an ideology. I think it is safe to assume. Zoom. Most ideologies have originated with good intentions. For thousands of years, thoughtful people have wrestled with the biggest, deepest questions in life. How did we in this world come to be? How can we overcome the fear, hunger, sickness and sorrow that afflict us?

Andrew Ainsworth [00:15:21] How can we attain the peace, prosperity and happiness that we desire? What happens to us and our loved ones after we die? Ideologies answer us different answers to these universal questions, but with tragic irony. All too often, the ideologies that promise us peace and happiness end up creating conflict and sorrow as well. From ancient prophets and kings who claimed divine mandate to conquer with a sword, to the Crusades of the Middle ages, to the 911 hijackers, ideologies have provided the moral justification for brutality and bloodshed for millennia.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:15:54] How did we ever come to believe that our ideologies are more important than each other? After all, people are tangible. People are real. We can see their suffering, we can hear their cries. We can hold them in our arms. Ideologies, on the other hand, are invisible projections of human minds. How did we ever begin showing more reverence and loyalty to our invisible ideologies than to other flesh and blood human beings, even our own family members?

Andrew Ainsworth [00:16:24] Since ancient times, most people have believed that in addition to the natural world we see all around us, there is an invisible supernatural world. An invisible world that, unlike our natural world, is imagined to be perfect and eternal.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:16:37] Ideologies built on a foundation of supernatural belief tend to believe that the will of an unseen God is supreme and must be obeyed at all costs, even at the cost of human life? Western monotheistic scripture is filled with innumerable examples of God punishing, killing, or commanding the punishment and killing of those who disbelieve or disobey him.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:16:57] Belief in the supernatural may lessen our fear of death, but it can also lessen the value we place on human life. And as the world witnessed on 9 11, the supernatural beliefs of just 19 people can carry dire consequences for the world.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:17:13] So what's the solution? Are certain outspoken atheists right when they say that we will not achieve peace on Earth until we eradicate religion and all notions of the supernatural? Was Steven Weinberg right when he said that with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil, but for good people to do evil, that takes religion.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:17:36] I don't think so. Because if history teaches us anything, it's that non religious people are just as capable as religious people when it comes to abusing and killing other human beings. Abandoning religious ideology won't prevent you from killing in the name of whatever non religious ideology you cling to, whether it be German National Socialism, Communism or any other ism.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:18:00] So I would say that with or without ideology, good people can behave well and bad people can can do evil. But for good people to do evil, that takes ideology. So how exactly does ideology succeed at getting good people to do evil? Before we could answer that question, we'd first have to define evil. And that's just the problem.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:18:22] When we attempt to define evil, we quickly realize that whether we consider something to be evil depends on which ideological camp we're in. That there is no universal definition of evil. Was it evil for the 911 hijackers to fly planes into the World Trade Center? Was it evil for the American military to drop atomic bombs on Japanese cities?

Andrew Ainsworth [00:18:45] Was it evil for Al Qaeda members to behead the American journalist Daniel Pearl? Was it evil for Nephi to cut off Laban's head and steal his scriptures? Was it evil for Warren Jeffs to marry teenage girls? Was it evil for Joseph Smith to marry teenage girls?

Andrew Ainsworth [00:19:01] Our answers to these questions depend on which ideological camp we're in. And that's just the point. Our ideologies determine what we consider to be evil. And what's evil to some is righteousness to others, and vice versa. For better or worse, most of us are born into ideological tribes. And oftentimes the people we love most, our dearest friends and family, share our ideology.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:19:26] From a very young age, we rely on our ideological tribes for guidance and support. We become bonded to them as we share our highest highs and lowest lows in life. So it's only natural that as we mature, we give credit to our ideological tribes for the goodness and happiness in our lives, and we develop a fierce loyalty to them.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:19:45] And when we come to define who we are as individuals by the ideological tribes we belong to, that's where the trouble begins. When our identities are wrapped up in our ideological labels, we can be easily offended, hurt or angered when someone criticizes or rejects our ideology because we perceive their rejection of our ideology as a personal rejection of us.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:20:12] And when we feel rejected by someone, it's only natural to feel hurt, to become angry, and to feel justified in retaliating with a stinging rebuke or worse, which ought to tell us that at its deepest level, the root of human conflict is not ideology.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:20:31] Ideologies are just the products of human inquiry, reflections of human nature. If we want to find the root of human conflict, all we really have to do is look in the mirror. When we see people hurting and killing their family and foes in the name of their ideology, we're witnessing something deep in human nature at work.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:20:51] The human survival instinct, our reflexive instinct to protect ourselves from whatever threats we perceived, whether real or imagined. Scientific research has revealed that when we perceive a threat, our bodies automatically produce hormones like adrenaline and norepinephrine that increase our heart rate and breathing, raise our blood pressure, increase blood flow to our muscles, and release glucose to give us energy without any conscious decision or effort on our part. Merely perceiving a threat causes our bodies to prepare to fight, feeling both fear and aggression. And as we've all experienced, when our defense mechanisms are triggered, we can often end up saying and doing things we would ordinarily condemn and that we later come to regret.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:21:40] Our defensive instincts give us aggressive impulses, while our ideologies give us tribal identities, define our enemies, and provide the moral justification for acting on our aggressive impulses. And from the Civil War to the bombing of Baghdad, from the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor to the massacre at Mountain Meadows, those who considered themselves to be good people have destroyed and killed with a sense of moral justification.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:22:08] And is there anyone in this room who has not acted on their instinct and ideology as well? Not with guns and bombs, but with sharp words or passive aggressive tactics, even to our own loved ones? Is there any way to let go of our natural defensive instincts?

Andrew Ainsworth [00:22:26] Is there any way to cast off the ideological lenses that cause us to view humanity in terms of us and them, and that cause us to feel morally justified when we mistreat each other? Here's what the New Testament says Jesus said all about.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:22:43] Ye have heard, it hath been said, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. But I say unto you that ye resist not evil, but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other. Also ye have heard, it hath been said, thou shalt love thy neighbor and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you and persecute you.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:23:17] I do not know if it is humanly possible to consistently do what Jesus taught. Based on what we've seen throughout history, Christians often have not been the best examples of turning the other cheek and loving their enemies. But I do feel confident that if there is a way to avoid and resolve conflict in our families and in the world, even just in theory, it is to live the way Jesus urged his followers to to love, bless and do good to everyone, even to those who hate, curse, use and persecute us.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:23:52] We probably all agree on that goal. I imagine we've intellectually embraced it for a long time. It's certainly not a new idea. So what prevents us from actually doing it? The answer ought to be obvious. Returning love and kindness to those who hurt us goes against our natural instincts.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:24:12] But in all the religions I'm familiar with, the fact that a commandment requires us to resist and restrain our natural instincts is not a sufficient justification for ignoring or breaking it. To the contrary, virtually all religious commandments direct us to control and overcome natural human instincts. Our sexual instincts, our egoistic instincts for fame, fortune and power to control other people.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:24:37] Jesus injunction to return love and kindness to those who hate and hurt us is no different. It challenges us to rise above our natural eye for an eye. Defensive Instincts but human instincts die hard. We've all been familiar with the Golden Rule since our primary do unto others as you would have others do unto you.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:24:59] But it seems all too often our Old Testament instincts kick in, causing us to pervert the Golden Rule by adding a convenient exception to justify our breaking it. It's as if we've rewritten the Golden Rule to say do unto others as you would have others do unto you unless you're certain that you're right and they're wrong, that they're bad and you're good, that you're innocent and they deserve punishment.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:25:28] But those words appear nowhere in Christian scripture. Because we seem to be so good at perverting the Golden Rule, it might be useful to slightly reformulate it in a way that clearly eliminates the self serving exception we add to it when we deeply ponder what Jesus was saying when he told us to do good to those who hurt us. He was urging us to follow what we might call the Platinum Rule to treat others with kindness, always, with no exceptions.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:25:58] Even if you think you're right and they're wrong, even if you think you're good and they're bad, even if you think you're innocent and they deserve punishment. As difficult or as impossible as this may seem, fortunately, we all have another natural instinct that can counteract our defensive instinct for self protection.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:26:21] In his seminal work the Descent of Man, Charles Darwin observed that the human instinct to love, to feel sympathy and compassion, is among the strongest and is the most uniquely human of our instincts. With that awareness, Jesus injunction to show love and kindness to those who hate and hurt us is a challenge to develop our sympathetic instinct until we become so full of love and compassion that it overcomes our retaliatory instinct, enabling us to put an end to the cycle of conflict.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:26:56] Throughout history, great religious minds like Buddha, Jesus and Gandhi have recognized that as natural as it may be to act on our survival instinct by exacting revenge on those who hurt us, a world filled with self justified anger, hatred and revenge is simply not worth living in.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:27:17] That if we are going to create a world that is worth living in, we must individually and collectively magnify our compassionate instinct until we would rather endure mistreatment than inflict it upon others. Buddha, Jesus and others like them recognized that to create a better world, we first need to erase the tribal boundaries that limit our compassion.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:27:41] One day, when Jesus spoke about loving our neighbor, a man trained in Jewish law, who, we are told, sought to justify himself, challengingly asked, and who is my neighbor? Jesus responded with the parable of the Good Samaritan, in which members of religious classes passed by a wounded man on the roadside. Presumably because they did not consider the wounded man to be their neighbor.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:28:04] Jesus chose a Samaritan, a class despised by the religious elite, to be the compassionate hero of the story, who rescues and pays for the wounded man's care. In response to the question who is my neighbor? The parable of the Good Samaritan provides an unmistakable everyone, not just our ideological comrades, but every living human being on the planet.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:28:29] If we are going to be peacemakers in our families and in the world, we are going to have to start by knocking down the ideological barriers that limit the system scope of our compassion. What if, instead of viewing ourselves as Muslims, Mormons, liberals, conservatives, and the endless array of ideological labels we put on ourselves, what if we could simply view ourselves as just human beings?

Andrew Ainsworth [00:28:52] First and foremost, human beings who share the same predicaments, experience the same heartaches and joys, have the same goals of safety and happiness, share the same fears of pain and death? What if we could unwrap the ideological labels from ourselves and just be content with our shared natural identity as human beings?

Andrew Ainsworth [00:29:15] Admirably, many ideological tribes do nobly extend their compassion beyond their boundaries. In October of 2006, a man walked into an Amish school in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, and shot 10 schoolgirls before committing suicide. Within hours of these heinous murders, several members of the Amish community publicly forgave the gunman. Some Amish visited the gunman's family the same day, comforting his widow, children and parents. One Amish man was seen holding the gunman's sobbing father in his arms for over an hour. The Amish example of compassion and forgiveness was a shining example to the world.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:29:56] And yet, in this very same Amish community, those who leave the Amish church or break its rules are shunned by their Amish family and friends. How can we explain or make sense of this apparent contradiction? How can a religious community forgive strangers for murder more readily than they can show love to their own family members who apostatize?

Andrew Ainsworth [00:30:22] Perhaps because those who cut off the apostate do not view themselves as failing to show love, but rather they exclude the apostate out of a desire to protect their family and community from someone they now view as a spiritual threat.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:30:39] A similar phenomenon can be observed in Mormon marriages when a spouse goes inactive or leaves the LDS faith. In such situations, the believing spouse may feel forced to choose between the lesser of two continuing to live with the apostate spouse and risk allowing their children to be exposed to the apostate's perceived negative influence, or protecting the children from the perceived spiritual threat by leaving or driving away the apostate spouse.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:31:08] The Apostle Paul addressed this very question, saying, if any man hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. And the woman which hath a husband that believeth not, if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:31:28] For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband. If if Paul counseled Christians not to turn against their spouses for unbelief, how can there be any justification for turning against one's child, sibling, parent, or friend for their unbelief?

Andrew Ainsworth [00:31:50] I am extremely fortunate and deeply grateful to have the best brother that anyone could ever hope for. Not only is he a devout believing Latter Day Saint, he is a saint in the truest sense of of the word. In Mormon online forums he would probably be referred to as a tbm, a True Believing Mormon. He's a doctor in the army every day he treats soldiers who have been maimed and disfigured in Iraq and Afghanistan, and I sense that the human suffering he sees every day has had a profound softening effect on his heart of gold.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:32:25] While stationed in Georgia, he had the opportunity to associate with a fellowship of Christian doctors whose focus on the concept of grace had a deep impact on him. Throughout my tumultuous transition out of the LDS Church over the past two years, my brother Craig has remained an ever loving and faithful friend. He calls me at least twice a month just to talk, just to see how I'm doing, with no judgment, no rebuke or chastisement. And I can honestly say that if a day ever comes when I return to the LDS Church, it will be because of people like him, which highlights an important consideration we need to keep at the forefront of our minds.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:33:08] Whenever we find ourselves in a heated disagreement or debate in those tense situations that threaten damage to our relationships, we need to take a deep breath and ask Do I want this person to embrace my views because of me, or to have to do so in spite of me?

Andrew Ainsworth [00:33:29] Do I want to light this person's path with my love and kindness, or do I want him to have to crawl over, under, or around the arrogant taunts I put in his path using harsh tones and words? Shame, manipulation, and coercion does not win anyone's heart. As Brigham Young taught, you can argue the Bible with a man till doomsday and you might convince him, but you won't convert him. Or, as Joseph Smith said, no power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:34:08] Showing compassion to those who reject our ideologies is easier when we focus on our shared beliefs. If we were to create a Venn diagram in which every religion was represented by a circle, we would see all the circles overlapping in the center, overlapping some but not others farther out from the center and having no overlap with each other at their outermost edges. The parts of the circle at the outermost edges would represent the beliefs and practices unique to each religion. Wearing burkas, yarmulkes, or religious undergarments abstaining from shellfish meat or wine worshipping in a synagogue, mosque, temple, or church believing in reincarnation or resurrection following Buddha, Mohammed, or Joseph Smith.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:34:51] The central core, where all the circles overlap, would represent what we might call universal human valuescaring for the poor and sick being tolerant, kind, generous, and gentle turning away from anger, hatred, greed, and violence. Although the world's religions offer different answers to the questions about the supernatural world and the deities who govern it, the world's religions largely agree about how we should treat each other here and now in the natural world, it is worth noting that one does not need to believe in a supernatural world to embrace the universal human values that form the common core of the world's religions.

Shared Human Values Across World Religions

Andrew Ainsworth [00:35:31] Those human values are something that atheists and theists alike can agree on. Why is that so? Perhaps it is because religions do not draw their values from their perception of the unseen supernatural deities alone. From a humanist perspective, religions are repositories of pragmatic wisdom gained from the rise and fall of human civilizations for thousands of years.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:35:54] Anyone who observes the natural world, whether an atheist or a theist, can observe the benefits of values drawn from the well of human experience. We can all observe that humans are better off when we treat each other with love, tolerance, kindness and compassion.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:36:11] But when it comes to our beliefs about the supernatural world and the deities who govern it, coming to unanimous agreement is nearly impossible. Why? Because those who claim the supernatural world has been revealed to them usually describe a revelatory process that is closely linked to human emotion. And as Elder Boyd K. Packer has acknowledged, the spiritual part of us and the emotional part of us are so closely linked that it is possible to mistake an emotional impulse for something spiritual.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:36:50] Those who don't believe in a supernatural world would say all human perceptions of the spiritual are just emotional impulses. But either way, theists and atheists can agree that relying on human emotions to divine the will of an unseen God involves a significant risk of error when it comes to questions about the supernatural world and what its deities require of us. It won't be until an afterlife that we'll know for sure whether God expected us to wear Islamic burkas or Mormon garments, to abstain from bacon or booze, to know whether there is one heaven or three degrees of glory, whether polygamy or monogamy is the divine form of marriage, or whether families can be together with or without Mormon temple ordinances.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:37:38] But what we can know for certain here and now, whether we are atheists or theists, is that the common central core of the world's religions, those universal human values, actually do promote human happiness and well being, both individually and collectively.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:37:58] When we recognize this important distinction between values based on human observation and religious beliefs based on fallible human perceptions of unseen deities, it becomes possible for us to transcend our religious differences in our homes and in the world by giving priority to the human values found in the common central core of the world's religions.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:38:23] I recognize this idea of prioritizing our religious commonalities above our religious differences is asking devout religious folks to make an adjustment of sorts, because it can understandably be seen as a request to loosen their grip on their peculiar religious beliefs. And that is very difficult because we tend to view our peculiar religious beliefs as the most important ones precisely because they're peculiar. It's that peculiarity that sets our church or religion apart from others. It's that peculiarity that makes our church or religion seem truer than all the rest.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:39:05] But the New Testament gives us good reason to doubt the accuracy and completeness of our peculiar visions of the spiritual world. As the Apostle Paul said, we know in part and we prophesy in part, for now we see through a glass darkly.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:39:25] Here Paul acknowledged that even as an apostle, his perception of the spiritual world was still obscure, that he could only know and prophesy in part. That should not be a foreign concept to Mormons because it is reflected in the ninth Article of Faith. Joseph Smith wrote, we believe that God will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God will yet reveal meaning. Mormons don't claim to know it all yet many great and important important things meaning. Mormons acknowledge they lack not just trivial details about the Kingdom of God, but rather that they still don't know many great and important things about it.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:40:11] If taken seriously, the ninth Article of Faith is a manifesto of moderation and open mindedness, a condemnation of uncompromising know it all certainty. When we humbly recognize how limited we are in what can be clearly seen and completely known in this life, we open our hearts and minds to the possibility that our beliefs, no matter how sincerely held, may be incorrect or incomplete.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:40:43] Letting go of our self confident certainty always involves an element of fear, but it opens the door to to discovery and progression. And that open minded humility creates tolerance. Humbly acknowledging it's possible we're wrong makes us more tolerant of differing views. We aren't as easily offended when others disagree with us and we respect others right to follow their own conscience rather than trying to force our conscience upon them.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:41:11] As the 11th article of faith states, we claim the privilege of worshipping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience and allow all men the same privilege. Let them worship how, where or what they may. The 11th article of faith has not been rescinded. It is still Mormon Scripture.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:41:31] And there is nothing to suggest that Mormons should not allow everyone, even their own family members, the same privilege of following the dictates of their own conscience, even if that means following them out of the LDS Church. So if even an apostle admits he can only see through a glass darkly and can only know in part and prophesy in part.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:41:54] If even the Church that claims to be the one and only true church on the face of the earth acknowledges there are many great and important things pertaining to the kingdom of God that have yet to be revealed, where does that leave us?

Andrew Ainsworth [00:42:09] Is there anything we can see clearly here and now? Is there anything we can all agree on? In his Epistle to the Corinthians, Paul provided an Though I speak with the tongues of men and angels and have not charity, I am become a sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:42:29] And though I have the gift of prophecy and understand I all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith so that I could remove mountains and have not charity, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:42:57] Charity never faileth. But whether there be prophecies, they shall fail whether there be tongues, they shall cease whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part, for now we see through a glass darkly, and now abideth faith, hope, and charity, these three. But the greatest of these is charity.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:43:27] Charity is the greatest of all virtues, even greater than faith. Having charity, treating each other with loving kindness is greater than speaking with the tongue of angels, greater than having the gift of prophecy, greater than understanding all mysteries and having all knowledge greater than having faith to move mountains.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:43:53] Charity is the platinum rule, treating others with kindness always with no exceptions, even when we think we're right and they're wrong, even when we think we're good and they're bad, even when we think we're innocent and they deserve punishment.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:44:10] Charity is the key to transcending ideological conflict and establishing peace in our homes and in the world. It is the graceful law of love that must replace the ancient eye for an eye mentality that makes the world and our homes blind and toothless.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:44:30] Somewhere in the stream of religious history, great thinkers like Buddha, Jesus, and Paul recognize that without charity all of our religious convictions, no matter how correct, worthless that without charity our ideologies turn us against each other and plunge us into endless conflict.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:44:52] Because charity is greater than faith, it stands to reason that being kind and maintaining fellowship with those who reject our ideology is an even more important example to set for our children than erecting exclusionary walls to protect them from perceived threats to their faith.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:45:14] If Paul's words are taken seriously, the greatest spiritual threat is not the apostate in our midst, but rather the greatest spiritual threat is whatever doctrine or conviction distracts us from our greater responsibility to treat the apostate charitably. Ideas are the most resilient parasites. Ideas build our cities and tear apart our homes. Ideas change the world for better, and they threaten its existence.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:45:47] So why not harness the awesome power that ideas hold over our hearts and minds by collectively embracing the most important idea of all, to love one another, believers and non believers, liberals and conservatives, atheists and theists, TBMs and apostates, by treating each other with kindness, always, with no exceptions. Even when we think others are wrong, even when we think others are bad, even when we think others deserve our punishment.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:46:20] Because, as we've all experienced and seen, a world where faith is exalted above charity is a world filled with eye for an eye ideological conflict. And that is not a world worth living in, but in a world or in a family that puts charity first.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:46:41] Faith differences do not become conflicts because our commitment to charity, to be loving and kind to each other always, is our most deeply held conviction of all. I say these things in the name of truth and reason. Amen.

Peter Breinholt [00:47:15] Come, come. You see saints. No toil nor labor fear, but with joy wend your way though hard to you this journey may appear. Grace shall be as your day.

Claudia Bushman Introduction and Session Opening

Part 3 of 5 · Ep. 358

Peter Breinholt [00:00:00] 1, 2, 3. Come, come, ye saints no toil nor labor fear but with joy wend your way.

Katrina Anderson [00:00:19] As wonderful as all of the speakers are and all of the musicians and everything that we have at the conference, I think one of the things that makes these conferences so great is all of you. And so special thanks to everybody who is here and who makes this conference a wonderful place and a comforting and loving place. I came across a quote by Tim McGraw, which is funny because I'm not really a big country music fan, but he said, we all take different paths in life, but no matter where we go, we take a little of each other everywhere. And that's how I feel about this Mormon Stories community.

Guest [00:00:57] Today.

Katrina Anderson [00:00:57] We're going to start this session with a musical number by Tia and Keith Callister. And this is an original work of music that they have put together for us. And then we are so honored and thrilled to have Claudia Bushman. And I'll go ahead and introduce Claudia now, and then she can just come up after the musical number. Claudia Bushman is one of Mormonism's most prominent intellectuals and feminists.

Katrina Anderson [00:01:26] An American historian, writer, teacher, editor, activist, mother of six and thinker. She holds degrees from Wellesley, Brigham Young University, and Boston University. As I was learning a little bit about Claudia, I came across a few things that I thought were super interesting. She was the Mother of the Year for the State of New York in the year 2000, and she produced the LDL Church's cultural celebration at Radio City Music hall in connection with the New York Temple dedication. And I know from listening to Claudia on a few podcasts that that's something that's very important to her, and I think she'd like to see more of, again, some of these cultural celebrations in connection with Mormonism.

Katrina Anderson [00:02:13] Claudia is also an author of several books, most recently Contemporary Latter Day Saints in Modern America. And she and her husband just finished teaching a course at Columbia, and they are spending the summer in Provo. And we're just so grateful to have her here. So Tia and Keith and then Claudia.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:02:42] This is a song I wrote when I was a young, naive missionary lad in northern Brazil. It means different things now than it did then.

Peter Breinholt [00:03:19] Sentimental mishap Living in space Coincidence A living trap hung in lace

Andrew Ainsworth [00:03:31] Crazy when

Peter Breinholt [00:03:31] I thought I knew the meaning of it all Crazy when I sought to please and ignorance took its toll. Not waiting for your life Heartbreaking by my time Keep trying to hold back the fight Keep crying. There wasn't an answer I knew that nothing was for sure

Guest [00:04:25] I ate back

Peter Breinholt [00:04:25] the feeling I didn't know what I was feeling One One more drop into electric night One more crash through dissonance and it's light. Not waiting for this light Heartbreaking Bad my time. Keep trying to hold back the fire Keep crying. Crippled emotions Strapped to my fate

Guest [00:05:24] Triple

Peter Breinholt [00:05:25] commotion Sudden coincidence create I drop 100 yards through the ground Trying to hide myself from the unborn sound. Not waiting for this life Heartbreaking by my time. Keep trying to hold back the fire Keep dying.

Claudia Bushman [00:06:33] I'm a big believer in telling our stories. One experience I had long ago was a visit to a branch of the Church of Jesus Christy of Latter Day Saints in the Bronx, one of the city of New York's tougher boroughs, where my son, who was then a medical student, was the branch president.

Claudia Bushman [00:06:54] It was a pitiful branch in many ways, inefficient, full of very strange people from strange lands and strange Americans who had not managed to get anything together in their whole lives. The Relief Society had a tradition on their fifth Sunday that the women would tell their stories.

Claudia Bushman [00:07:20] They had a little prop, a tin globe, tin child's globe, and they would turn it around and point out where they came from. I'm from Madagascar, right here. I'm from Peru, not far from Machu Picchu. I'm from a little island between these two other little islands right there in the blue sea.

Claudia Bushman [00:07:47] Then the sister would tell her story about how her mother was washing clothes in the stream and these two young men came along and told her about people in other lands, Jesus Christy and Joseph Smith, and how the family changed some of their traditions, began to go to the little chapel where they met with the saints, and how, talking to the elders and the members, they had thought how it would be possible for her, the daughter, to go to the United States and begin a new life.

Claudia Bushman [00:08:22] And after a while, it didn't matter anymore that the woman looked odd, that she was wearing a very strange outfit, that her English was awkward. She was a sister, a dear sister. It was a marvelous experience for everyone.

Claudia Bushman [00:08:39] We've done that sort of thing in other wards where we've lived and published little books of remembrances. My husband is currently the high priest, group leader in one of the Manhattan wards, and telling their stories is the major source of lesson material.

Claudia Bushman [00:08:56] All that has certainly been involved in my current big project, the Claremont Oral History Program. This summer we are trying to beat into shape the essays that the students have written to make a book, using the oral histories that we have in hand as source material, encouraging women, who are certainly the silent majority of Mormondom to get their stories down is an important work and one that I invite you all to join in, and if people are interested, I'll make my little manual available to you. Maybe Mormon Stories had put it online or something. And anyone who wants to tell her own story, this is a woman's project, or to interview someone else, can turn out a transcription that we will be glad to add to our collection at Claremont, which is now numbering over 160 extensive interviews with women of all ages and kinds.

Claudia Bushman [00:09:57] But sharing our stories, as we all know here, turns us into communities. Once in graduate school, I was talking to a friend. She said she was sad. She felt lonely and alone in the universe. I told her that I sometimes felt that way, but she would have none of that. She completely dismissed me.

Claudia Bushman [00:10:19] She said that I couldn't possibly understand because I had the Mormons. Of course, she was right. I do have the Mormons. I've always had the Mormons and I hope I will always have the Mormons. I will never feel as abandoned as she did, because I always do have the Mormons. I can find friends anywhere. I already have friends everywhere. I have a community to belong to in any place I go. I can visit with the elders on the street. I can find people who are recognizably Mormon, who know people I know, even if I don't know them to begin with. I can start a conversation and have instant intimacy in no time.

Claudia Bushman [00:11:02] Last year we lived in three cities in three wards. We have good friends in all of them. We have a building group of friends if we choose to take them up. But we don't have to interact with all those people all the time. But we can if we want to.

Claudia Bushman [00:11:19] One young woman that I know, unmarried at 40 plus, moved from a ward full of young professionals in a big city where she was the center of activities and ideas for activities. When she enrolled in graduate school, she found herself in a very staid, very conservative, very much married ward.

Claudia Bushman [00:11:42] That ward apparently did not know what to do with her and didn't try very hard. People completely ignored her. She was invisible. People did not greet her or speak to her or ask about her background or give her an assignment. She was completely out of it.

Claudia Bushman [00:12:00] After some weeks of being completely invisible, she devised a proactive strategy. She told the primary president that she loved to teach and was always available to substitute for a class. She announced in Relief Society that she would be going to the temple regularly and would drive a car full of people. She vowed that when she left that ward that people Would miss her.

Claudia Bushman [00:12:27] She felt that she had arrived in the ward when someone called to ask or a question, question what time some event was. She had been recognized as an insider. It was success. When she did leave that ward, which she has certainly done, People regretted her going. She had made a place for herself in a committee in a community where she did not originally belong.

Feeling Left Out and Joseph Smith's Plural Marriages

Claudia Bushman [00:12:53] I know that a lot of people feel left out in their war. They hold views unpopular with others in congregations. They do not feel that they are welcome to voice them. In fact, they feel censured when they speak up. I've had experiences like that myself and I was certainly stung.

Claudia Bushman [00:13:12] People feel excluded from cliques and power groups. They feel that some wonderful ward life is going on without them and that they have been perfect. Purpose left out, stressed ward communities bring pain as well as comfort. There are power lines, inexperienced leaders, relationships so closed that they can scarify.

Claudia Bushman [00:13:36] I want to read you a Mormon story from a hundred years ago. You will see some details that date it, but you will also see a situation that could happen today. As we have the power to love and include each other, we also have the power to injure each other. It is interesting to note, however, that such stories come to a resolution in the end. As they say, everything will work out at the end. If it doesn't work out, it's not the end.

Claudia Bushman [00:14:10] And here's the story. As I was a stake board member then with the Young Ladies Mutual Improvement association, as it used to be called, later the Mutual Improvement association, now the yw, the Young Women. I had to meet with the local board and relay instructions to them. Some way, somehow a bad spirit crept in and they said I was usurping their authority. I didn't know that they felt that way. But they complained to our bishop and he, in an effort to straighten things out, called us all to a meeting.

Claudia Bushman [00:14:51] I didn't know what I was in for, so I went all unaware of my trouble. The bishop called on them to state their case. And one by one they told him that I was trying to to run their organization.

Claudia Bushman [00:15:06] I was so overcome I began to cry. And all I could say was it was a mistake. I had no such idea. Only passing on word from our president. My brother in law was one of the bishopric, but he felt so bad for me he couldn't say a word. I felt very bad about that.

Claudia Bushman [00:15:28] The bishop decided there was nothing much to it and and told us all to shake hands and forget it. I, in my indignation and grief, got up to walk out. But he called me back and made me stand.

Claudia Bushman [00:15:42] Each one came up and took my hand and said they were sorry, but I would not speak. Just then one woman spoke in tongues, powerfully. And you probably know that this is glossomalia, sort of unrecognizable syllables that are treated as a foreign language that someone translates in an interpretation.

Claudia Bushman [00:16:05] The interpretation was that they were to ask my forgiveness and I was to really forgive them or the Lord would be displeased with me. But in my anger I wouldn't do it and as soon as possible walked out. And the efforts that the group made to be friends I re buffed and would have none of them.

Claudia Bushman [00:16:25] In the group were some of my best friends. For several months I would not speak to any of them and I suffered deeply. I hated to be not on friendly terms, but couldn't forgive the humiliation that they had put me to.

Claudia Bushman [00:16:41] Finally, in distress, I went to the Stake president to seek his counsel and tell him the story. And this is what he said. I can see how you feel. It was an unpardonable thing to do. The bishop should have known that a stake officer could only be handled by stake authorities. It was a blunder. But now all of those sisters are very sorry. They want your friendship and you are withholding it. Now, if you are to progress and go forward in the church, you must forgive everyone. And that means forget everything and give them the hand of friendship. If you don't do this, your usefulness will be ended.

Claudia Bushman [00:17:25] You will no longer be called on to work in the church. If you forgive them truly forget your anger and really take the hand of all of them with love in your heart, you will be happy again. They will love you and the day will come when you will be given leadership in the mutual. They will take instructions from you and love you for being their head.

Claudia Bushman [00:17:50] Now what are you going to do? I said, president, I will do all you say and put out of my heart the bitterness in it. He blessed me and said the Lord had a work for me to do if I would prepare and be worthy. I left his presence refreshed and blessed with all the bitterness and anger cleansed out of my heart. I went home happy and light hearted and lost no time in meeting that group in the right spirit. And they were very happy to give me the true friendship necessary. And never again was there any trouble between us.

Claudia Bushman [00:18:28] Now what do we make of that? People working together have tensions. They get cross and speak out. Others react. Everyone already understands what should happen and the speaking in tongues points the way. A hierarchical Structure is in place that allows for peacemaking. Rewards are offered for good behavior. Peace is restored. It's a classic case of civility repairing chaos.

Claudia Bushman [00:18:58] People get upset by other things. They hear about shocking and startling things that happened in LDS Church history, insensitive pronouncements from leaders in the past. They wonder why the church has suppressed this damaging information. How can a church where such things have happened or have been said to be the true church at such times, they don't even want to be part of a ward community.

Claudia Bushman [00:19:25] For the 19th century life of the church from its organization in 1830 until the turn of the century when many things changed and Utah became a state, the church pretty much told its own story for its own benefit.

Claudia Bushman [00:19:40] People outside of the vast foreign enclave of Deseret criticized, attacked and dismissed the Mormons as the depraved religious fanatics. When Mormons told their own story to themselves, they told it as the heroic and miraculous tale of virtuous believers cast out from the lands of their fathers. Both stories still stand even as people in both camps sort out the details.

Claudia Bushman [00:20:08] My husband Richard Bushman, sitting down here, who has spent a lot of time in the annals of church history, encourages people to follow up on the shocking details of church history. He says that the way to approach such things is to go right into the center of them. When shocking details are exposed to clear light, they often lose their punch.

Claudia Bushman [00:20:32] Some years ago he was working on a book entitled Joseph Smith and the Beginnings of Mormonism. At that time, reference references to the founding Mormon prophet Joseph Smith as a money digger were considered slurs on his character. But as Richard read the 19th century sources, he thought that it was pretty clear that Smith, his family and his friends were all involved in treasure seeking. He also found out that this was common behavior for poor, uneducated farmers of the period.

Claudia Bushman [00:21:05] Pirates had supposedly buried treasure all over water. Reaching the discovery of underground water was well accepted. Joseph Smith had found a stone that helped him to locate treasure, although I don't know of any spectacular finds till he brought home the gold plates. But this folk magic was common among the folk people of 19th century America. So Richard wrote about that folk magic in his book.

Claudia Bushman [00:21:33] Church members now accept the idea that Joseph Smith was a money digger. Another such damaging detail is that Joseph smith married a 14 year old girl, Helen Wair Kimball. Surely some say this fact proves that he was a pervert, a lecher, an unprincipled person who used his hold on his members to lure young girls into his evil designs and infamous ways. Certainly looks bad for Brother Joseph, and that fact alone has shaken the faith of many people in the church. Surely this is a case where we should look farther than the fact of the marriage.

Claudia Bushman [00:22:13] Richard says that if we were rewriting rough stone rolling, he would make more of the incident, seeing as it bothers so many people. The marriage took place place in May of 1843, when Helen was two or three months shy of her 15th birthday.

Claudia Bushman [00:22:29] First, we should say that marriages at that age were not unusual in the 19th century. At 15, 14 and even younger, we should also say that it was the LDS leader was looking for. That if the LDS leader was looking for intramarital intercourse, extra, extramarital intercourse, that there are many easier ways to find it than setting up a program where men married additional wives under the pretense of divine sanction.

Claudia Bushman [00:23:00] In this case, we know that Heber C. Kimball, one of Smith's most devoted followers, made the approach. He asked Helen to become Joseph's wife, and he had, according to Helen, previously offered her to Joseph to be sealed to him as his wife for dynastic purposes to link the houses of Heber and Joseph through eternity. As Helen later wrote, having a great desire to be connected with the prophet Joseph, he offered me to him. This I afterwards learned from the prophet's own mouth. Helen herself opposed the marriage, as did her mother, Vilate.

Claudia Bushman [00:23:40] But Helen and Joseph were married. The marriage was short, as Smith died the next year and Helen was a widow at 15. Helen wrote more about her resentment at curtailed social activities than about the secret marriage. She went on to other places and other relationships.

Claudia Bushman [00:24:01] Do these sketchy things change the way we think of the marriage? They do for. For me in the Church, we not only interpret the stories, facts and teachings of the Church, we are in a position to make our own. We have access to deity through our prayers and personal revelations. And we can make choices in interpreting the teachings that come to us. Here's a story from the Claremont oral history collection. A cross cultural experience as rich a story of doctrinal creation as I know.

Claudia Bushman [00:24:36] This is from a woman who grew up in the Fiji Islands. When I was a child and we lived in the village, we had no refrigeration. My granddad, when he had some money, he'd get bread. He'd buy a loaf of bread. And because we had no way of storing it in a refrigerator, we would sit on the floor and get a piece of cloth. So we had the. The tablecloth on the floor. So after we ate some, we would put the bread in, fold it up and put it in a woven basket of pandanus leaves. On the ends of the basket would be a string, and we would hook it up to the beam of the house so it was off the floor and away from the ants.

Claudia Bushman [00:25:18] That is, if we had folded the bread up quick enough before the ants got into it. Because sometimes he would say to us, hurry up. And my cousin and I would say, yeah, yeah, we'll put it away. But then we would run around and play, and the bread still was there. And then we would remember we needed to put the bread away. So we would wrap it up and hang it. But we had forgotten that the ants would already have gotten in the next morning. Granddad would tell us to get the bread down. And the bread comes down, and we all sit around and the kettle boiled, and the tea is poured into the cups, and we would proceed to cut the bread.

Claudia Bushman [00:25:58] And you cut the bread, and the ants are just falling out of the bread. So I would get my piece of bread and. Oh, no, I would say, and I would bang it on the floor and the ants would come out. I don't know how my cousin and granddad ate their bread, but I am sitting there hitting the bread on the ground. And so as I am hitting it, more ants come out. So then they would climb up on my hands and my legs and I would start swiping them off and jumping around. And granddad would say, just dip it in your tea.

Claudia Bushman [00:26:31] And I would say, but it's still ants. It's going to kill me. And granddad would say, no, no, just dip it in your tea. It will kill the ants. And it will. Will be all right for you. It is good for you. Trust me. See? And he would dip his bread into the tea and eat it and say, see, I am still alive.

Claudia Bushman [00:26:54] So I thought that he must be right. So I would dip my bread into the tea and I would eat it, but I would still want to pick the ants out. Then my granddad would say, you could not spend all of your days. Or you could. You could spend all of your days, but you could never get all the ants out. There is just so much in there. And when you pick at the bread, every piece of ant you get out. You get a piece of bread out, too. So by the end of the day, you're going to have no bread to eat, because every piece of bread that you're pulling out has a piece of ant on it.

Claudia Bushman [00:27:30] Then you will be hungry because there is no bread to eat. And you will be late for school and he would do that every morning. The routine of me not eating the bread. Then I finally realized that I'd better dip it in the tea and eat.

Claudia Bushman [00:27:46] Was some years later, during a sacrament meeting, that it finally dawned on me what that was really about. He taught me that the ants are good for you. And I figured what Heavenly Father was trying to to tell me is that in our lives, well, my husband could be that piece of bread.

Claudia Bushman [00:28:05] And I am looking at every little thing that is wrong with him, and I am picking it out and picking it out. And at the end of the day, there's nothing left of my husband to love because I have picked out all the imperfections in him. He drops his socks, his undies on the floor, that he doesn't wash the dishes. Every little thing I could think wrong about him would be like me picking the ants out of the bread.

Claudia Bushman [00:28:35] At the end of the day, there's nothing left of my husband to love anymore because it is all eaten up by my picking at it, trying to destroy the little things. But when Granddad said to drink it, to dunk it in the tea because it's good for you, well, I take everything that I felt is wrong and that I feel bad about, and I take it to the Savior and He immerses it in his blood and in his atonement. Then everything would be all right. I would just take it all to him and let it go and just immerse it in his blood and his atonement.

Claudia Bushman [00:29:13] Then it will be all right. And when Granddad said that the bread with the ants would be good for you, it really is good for me. It is better for me to let go and not pick at every little thing about someone else or even about myself. I can pick out things I don't like about my face or putting on weight. But if this is all that I concentrate on, and I don't concentrate on what it is all about, the big picture, then I am losing out on life and the lesson of life. Life. Then my days are wasted like my granddad said that I was picking on so many ants that I could miss out on school.

Claudia Bushman [00:29:51] We could miss out on our lives. If you are picking on things, I'm here to learn things. And that is all I am concentrating on. I am missing out. If I am picking on all the little things, that lesson just hit me out of the blue and I have not forgotten it since because it taught me a powerful lesson about what the atonement really means. For the atonement to be effective, it has to apply to me first, especially for others, especially for my own husband. If I want the atonement to work in him, then I need for it to work in me first. It is forgiveness.

Claudia Bushman [00:30:27] Heavenly Father can't really forgive me if I can't forgive myself or forgive the other person, because then greater sin is upon me if I don't forgive. And I have felt the same about looking at others and how to not pick on the ants of others or of myself, because when I do, I am taking away something that is important and good for me to know.

Claudia Bushman [00:30:54] So it is that in the stories of others we find answers to our own problems. I hope this lesson has come through to you and that when you find your bread is full of ants, you will remember to dunk it in your tea.

Claudia Bushman [00:31:10] Thank you for this opportunity to speak to the greater community of Mormons where we speak in stories, where we try to accept and comfort, where we try to reconcile disagreements and relieve tensions, where we are all in this great tradition together. And I say this in the name of Jesus Christy. Amen.

Katrina Anderson [00:31:45] Claudia, thank you so much. It's so great to be able to learn from your experience and your wisdom. We really appreciate it. Next, we have two speakers from our Salt Lake community and I'm going to go ahead and introduce them both now. And first we have Michael Fife, who is originally from Seattle, Washington.

One Couple's Journey Through Faith and Reconciliation

Katrina Anderson [00:32:05] He holds degrees from Brigham Young University and Northwestern. He says he met his wife Chelsea at a romantic encounter in the Liberty Square Apartments parking lot in Provo. He wouldn't give me any more details. The Fifes have lived in California, Buenos Aires, Chicago, and they now reside in North Salt Lake. And they have four kids, ages 13 down to 6.

Katrina Anderson [00:32:32] And after Mike, we will be pleased to hear from Stephanie Laritzen. She's from Salt Lake City and Stephanie has degrees from the University of Utah and West Minister and Westminster, and she is a high school English teacher. Stephanie's married and she just had a little baby girl that I've seen her carrying around. She's adorable. Stephanie is all. She also has a popular blog called Mormon Child Bride. So Mike and then Stephanie,

Andrew Ainsworth [00:33:15] Thank you. You know, I was told this is going to be a TED style talk, so I had visions of walking around with a fancy multimedia presentation. And I have put together at least six PowerPoint slides that I spent, I kid you not, at least five minutes on. So I hope you guys enjoy it. But this is designed to be kind of a story regarding, you know, my and my wife's story, navigating both faith and then Crisis and then a middle way. And I hope that some of you will take away some key lessons because many of you in this room are navigating either crisis, maybe a spouse is navigating crisis.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:33:53] And everybody's seeking reconciliation. So I hope this is useful for you. So it was about a year ago that I first came to Mormon Stories. We were meeting at, it was the June conference, and I had just run the Utah Valley marathon that morning, and I was exhausted and tired and dehydrated. We came and, you know, at the time, I was this innocent, orthodox, you know, excuse me, self proclaimed, unorthodox Mormon, but nevertheless very faithful. And I'll get into my story in a minute, but I remember thinking, coming to Mormon Stories, thinking, who are these people? People are crazy. What was my wife doing?

Andrew Ainsworth [00:34:30] And I came and, you know, I liked it. And I got to know many of you. I got to host several of you at my house and a number of times. And over the course of this year, I've learned for myself that you guys are freaking crazy. This is crazy stuff we're doing right now, but it's been a great pleasure to get to know you. I've interacted with many of you online and I certainly know that many of the labels I had didn't apply. But rather, we're all seeking reconciliation in our own way, in a way that's meaningful and authentic for all of us. So let me tell you about myself.

Growing Up with Pioneer Heritage and Gospel Expectations

Andrew Ainsworth [00:35:03] I am indeed a Mormon. And like most of you, I was born of goodly parents. My father oozes righteousness, right? He has no, no ounce of judgment in him. And my mother is purely a saint. You know, they've been everything from senior missionaries to temple sealers to, you name it. And I was, you know, as Terry mentioned, I was raised in Seattle. I was actually born in Bountiful, Utah, where I lived in an entirety of two years and then moved to Renton, Washington was about two years after my father finished his medical residency. And I grew up in what was a fairly orthodox household, but one that was also mildly unorthodox.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:35:42] We did everything that you guys did. We went to church every Sunday. We had family home evening religiously and heard all the pioneer and Mormon stories every single Monday night without, you know, without missing a beat. But then sometimes, you know, my parents would do some mildly uncorrelated things, like we might go out to a dinner on a Sunday for some odd reason or, you know, when we were kids, we would never drink Coca Cola or, heaven forbid, Mountain Dew. Remember how in the 70s Mountain Dew had that intoxicated hillbilly as its logo. And one thing Mormons are not, or intoxicated hillbillies. Right. We're bearded polygamists, right?

Andrew Ainsworth [00:36:25] I mean, that's what we are. But. But after a while, yeah, after, you know, by the time I got the junior high Diet Coke tab for those of you that enjoy tab would show up in the house. What is this tab? It must have caffeine, maybe. Caffeine's not bad.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:36:40] So I had at least a fairly balanced upbringing and I knew that, you know, we went to church every Sunday. As I mentioned, I was a four year graduate of seminary. But my grandparents who lived down the street, whom I loved to go over and visit them and sleep over because I'd get to watch Dukes of Hazzards and the Love Boat. You guys all watch the Love Boat? I always watch the Love Boat, right? I'm out of the closet. I watch the Love Boat and I loved it. But you know what? At their house, on their counter were things like Taster's Choice or General Foods International Coffees, which sounded so exotic.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:37:13] But I remember thinking as a little bit boy thinking, oh, well, maybe coffee is not that. Maybe, maybe they can do it. Maybe it's not that evil. You know, whatever. Could I have a hamburger? Let's go play cards. And my grandparents, you know, they taught me a five card draw. So I grew up in a fairly, you know, kind of outside the bounds of what 1970 Mormonism was all about, right, which was Joseph Fielding smith, Bruce R. McConkey style.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:37:36] And so. But my mother was, you know, my father as well, very active. My father, father served on high councils, was in the bishopric. My mother was always either primary president, young women's president, Relief Society president, many times. And so we grew up, you know, very much in the church.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:37:58] And I remember on Sundays, back in the day, you know, we used to go to Sunday school in the morning and then sacrament meeting at night, which we got to go back to that. But we used to do that. But during the day, during the breaks, we would study scriptures. We were pretty hardcore core about that. I remember reading and Chelsea, you could advance this slide. We would read the illustrated stories of the Book of Mormon. Do you really have these, that old set with the audio cassettes? So I would listen to those all day and they had these beautiful illustrated pictures of like Lehi's dream and of Nephi getting, you know, taken away to the mountaintop where the angel would say, look or behold.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:38:31] And why don't you Go ahead and advance it one more. And. And I remember thinking, man, I am Lehi. I had five brothers. We are five brothers. Excuse me. So I had two older and two younger. And my two older were totally Laman and Lemuel, right? They dabbled in drugs, in all seriousness, they dabbled in alcohol and drugs. Had a lot of bad friends. And I remember thinking, man, I am Nephi. I've got two, I got two wicked older brothers. I got two younger brothers that just want to do what's right. I've got a visionary father and I've got my mother murmurs, who's a. It was perfect.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:39:03] And I remember thinking that, you know, that my, you know, my father on one hand, you know, he was a man of many short lived passions. He would go on for years trying to learn. He'd go on a Greek kick, right? He would start learning Greek and I would walk in the room, he'd have cassette tape on. He'd be saying Greek words out loud, you know, listening to audio, which I couldn't hear. So he'd be like, for sure.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:39:27] And then he'd go on to Hebrew, right? It was like Indiana Jones, you know, I'd rock a in the room. He'd say, count to 10 in Hebrew. And my. So he was very. But then he'd switch habits and start, you know, reading books by like, Tom Brown, the tracker. He was going to be a big outdoor survivalist guy. Excuse me. And he would track animals and he would, he'd just be all into it and then he would go on to something else. So very much a visionary man. My mother was, was very much a murmur. She was, she nagged, let's just say it like it was.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:39:55] She was a nagger. She nags my father to this day, incessantly over the most minute details, over which my father just says, yes, dear, that's okay. Yes, I love you so. But they were very, very good people. I think my mother's nagging says more about where I get my OCD from than it says about anything else. But I remember thinking, I'm Nephi. I mean, advance the slide one more time. I mean, Nephi beheaded people. That was cool stuff, right? So I was very much into, like, I'm a Mormon, this is who I am.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:40:24] And I grew up knowing as well that I was a purebred pioneer stock. I mean, I was a great, and I still am a great, great, great grandson of Brigham Young himself through Lucy Bigelow, whom I'm convinced was his favorite wife, because the 42nd wife's typically the favorite, right?

Andrew Ainsworth [00:40:42] And the 43rd is like, eh, but very much purebred stock. I was a grandson as well of John D.T. mcAllister, the very man who.

Peter Breinholt [00:40:52] Whom.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:40:53] For whom in the Salt Lake, excuse me, the St. George Temple. He baptized Wilford Woodruff on behalf of the founding Fathers. And I was related to Thomas Durbin, Carolyn Mortensen, members of the Willie and Martin handcart companies, you know, the very ones who were stranded at the Sweetwater, you know, you know, about whom some of the most dramatic stories in Mormonism is told. So I remember growing up and being very aware of this, being very intimate with my Mormon heritage. And this was clearly who I was. I loved my spot in, in Mormonism in terms of who I was and my identity. I served a mission in Argentina, Treleo, after graduating from high school in 1990, just to date myself there.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:41:33] And I read the scriptures constantly, you know, among other works, you know, I had the missionary set. So I started the mission in Argentina. I want you to advance it one more time for me and, and read all the standard works you're issued. I read Jesus the Christy and I've gone back to reread it many times. I've, you know, read the Great Apostasy and all those missionary books that many of you probably have still kicking around in your room and in your house.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:41:59] And, you know, when you're on a mission, that's the time of life when doctrine and gospel merges, you know, seamlessly with urban legend. You know, on mission you talk about the Garden of Eden, you talk about Missouri, you talk about the atonement and salvation. And you also talk about, you know, that dry cleaner that burned to the ground because the guy displayed the Mormons missionary's garments and mocked him, right? That happened in every mission in South America. The thing burned down. It's a true story.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:42:28] So it was a beautiful time back in the time when, you know, Mormonism and the church was big and it was wondrous and it was a mystery. I mean, I had this sense of manifest destiny, right, that we were chosen people indeed.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:42:40] But I also knew from prayer and from faith and from study that life is a journey of learning. We're all here to learn and to figure out how to interact with God. You know, at the end of the day, it's you and it's God. It is your maker. And that's one of life's big journeys, right, is to figure that out. How do you do that? How does it work?

Andrew Ainsworth [00:43:03] And I knew through study and through experience as well, that there are shades of gray in life. You know, nothing is ever absolute per se. Our own church teaches that if we look hard enough. And, you know, by the end of my mission, I had certainly developed my own interpretation of Scriptures, you know, as we all do and as we, frankly, all should. And I felt very comfortable with my interpretations of the plan of salvation and even how to reconcile trickery issues such as the role of prophets and how the atonement moment works. And for me, you know, obviously, the church defined my worldview. It was, you know, it is my spiritual language.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:43:35] It remains my people. And as I mentioned, you had this beautiful sense, you know, that maybe some of us here have lost that sense of manifest destiny, that, you know, this is something special. So, as Terry mentioned, you know, I went to BYU and I met my. My lovely wife Chelsea there at that magical encounter. And I'll. I'll spare you the details because I'm sure Cheris will. Will tell you her version.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:43:58] But, you know, what I loved about my wife was that she was highly unorthodox, right? So in the early 90s, I'm at BYU in the summertime. I'm dating all the BYU girls. And of course, they're all sticky, sweet, really cheesy, and they have the depth of a Twilight novel.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:44:14] Now, granted, BYU has a lot of really deep, intelligent women, but I didn't know any of them, right? I didn't know any of them. So that summer, I was really looking for something authentic. So this was the summer of 1994, in August, when I met my wife and then a counter. And, you know, she invited me up to her apartment, and first thing she wants to do is show me your crystals and talk to me with the energy they have. And I was like, show me your crystals. Sweet.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:44:38] And, you know, and. And it was great. I love the fact that she was just very, very different. She'd wear, you know, these big flowy skirts and kind of had a little bit of shoulder showing. So I was like, reese, who is this girl?

Andrew Ainsworth [00:44:52] And obviously, that was the girl for me. So we started to work together at the local spa fitness gym, for those of you who know. Provo later worked at powerhouse gym on 9th East. It's now a Gold's Gym. Worked there for years, and eventually got married in the Oakland Temple and graduated and moved away from Provo in 1997, in the spring of 97. And from there we went to Folsom, California, and to Buenos Aires, Argentina, where I worked for Honeywell at the time. And Then later moved to Chicago and lived there for about 10 years until moving here in 2007.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:45:23] And through it all, you know, we were faithfully going to the church. You know, we had friends outside in the mission field, you know, with whom we had this incredible bond because we had these shared experiences and can kind of revel in our common uniqueness, you know, that we were members of the church. You know, we forged a bond based on that collective uniqueness. And we would, you know, we served in young women's presidencies and young men's presidencies and, you know, served in bishoprics and elders quorum presidencies and Sunday school. And we were very much into it. And being in Illinois at the time, we visited all the sites.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:45:58] So we went to all the sites and we went to go visit Hill Cumorah. We saw the Hill Cumorah pageant. We went to, you know, we went to Nauvoo, saw the City of Joseph pageant, explored our roots there. We went to Independence, Missouri.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:46:13] We went to Adam on Diamond, where you literally can feel the sacredness of the soil in Adam on Diamond. So we reveled in this. We studied church history. We were into it, and obviously we still are. But at that stage of life, clearly the church was still, still big and wondrous, you know, for. And maybe it is for some of you, and maybe it isn't for some of you. Maybe some of you are here because one thinks it is, one thinks it isn't.

Navigating Doubt and Seeking Middle Ground Together

Andrew Ainsworth [00:46:39] But you know, of course, life isn't always entirely perfect and tidy, you know, as with life, you know, not everything fits perfectly into a given narrative, you know, for one, like for many of you, and I know certainly for my wife, you know, sometimes portions of the church just doesn't exactly fit just right. I mean, for example, you know, we have this idea that there's a Father in heaven who will connect with you through his spirit, through this kind of proverbial burning in the bosom, you know. But what happens if you never feel the burn like the way you're supposed to, like the way it's advertised, the way we talk about it incessantly, you know, we also have this heavenly mother, right, who is conspicuously silent and perhaps even non existent.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:47:17] And we have this culture in this process where the only way you know that you're in good standing is you go in for an interview and a local guy in the neighborhood who's always a man will tell you you are. And there's a checklist there. There's a proverbial Checklist.

Peter Breinholt [00:47:36] Just.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:47:36] Why don't you go ahead and advance this slide, Will? So, you know, so we're taught, of course, that, you know, over and over that if you do this and that, right, if you go through your checklist, good things will happen, you know, blessings will come, you know, for yourself, and the narrative will follow as prescribed. But of course, we know it doesn't always work out. You know, sometimes it's tough to get that burning in the bosom, to kind of feel it just the way people are saying that you're feeling it in sacrament meeting.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:48:05] And, you know, sometimes, you know, what do you do if there's not that confirming witness that everybody talks about so relentlessly? For me, at least at this point in time, when we moved to Utah, I was content with my personal interpretations. I felt that one's relationship with God wouldn't necessarily always follow the pattern we advertised. And I believe that the Lord doth grant unto all nations of their own tongue, his word and his testimony. And therefore, your way of finding truth within Mormonism according to your tongue and your manner of experiencing the divine was just as though good as the textbook version of gaining a personal, undeniable witness, you know, of the truth through that famed and burning in the bosom.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:48:46] That was always my perspective. But obviously for my wife, on the other side of the fence, you know, getting to a certain age, after a while, you know, it's just not okay anymore to not know the way you're supposed to know, because everybody deserves to know for themselves. That's what we teach. That's what we instill in our youth, and that's what we advertise.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:49:05] So through separate impulses. But together, we began to attend the temple weekly every week for nearly a year religiously. And I remember often driving or running through Bountiful, Utah, along Bountiful Boulevard, and seeing that temple and thinking, you know, I feel compelled to go. And we went, you know, and a funny thing happened at the temple. You know, we certainly connected with the divine. And for me, it was deep and it was insightful, but for my wife, it was very different. Different. Different things. The narrative advertises, which was shocking, insightful.

Katrina Anderson [00:49:34] Good.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:49:34] Yes. The ritual and the meditation provided therein certainly is very good, but it was very different. And so we both connected in a meaningful way, but it was kind of resulting in different conclusions. You know, for example, speaking for my wife, she certainly concluded that, you know, revelation inspiration does come through. It's nuanced. It comes through your personal experience. It's not necessarily verbatim and it can be written down. You can hand it to somebody else and call it revelation. It doesn't usually work like that for the, for the lay member.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:50:09] And so that was very, very different. We, you know, we certainly learned there are exceptions to these hard rules that we tend to preach. And additionally, you know, her diligent work and family history, you know, forced her to confront things and all of our past that were squarely in her past. Things such as the idea of Mothers of Israel. You know, those women that were brought up to do many things, among which was to prepare other young women to accept and live the principle of plural marriage. Or family members who crossed the plains but then turned back and decided not to go to Salt Lake.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:50:45] You know, those are the people sometimes vilified in church history, but rather these were still, still just good people doing what they felt was best for their families. So from there, many of you know where that peak into the uncorrelated world where that goes. And I won't bore you with all the sordid details of agonizing self discovery, but let it suffice to say that total chaos ensued, right? Full plunge into what we would call here, lovingly, a faith crisis. And let's go ahead and advance it one. So one more. And then at a quiet moment, of course, in Zion national park where we are hiking, my wife told me her feelings for kind of where she was in this proverbial journey that we're all on.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:51:37] You know, she told me that the church to her wasn't really what it claimed to be, in her opinion, and she wanted to redefine her and by extension, our interaction with it. So many of you know what that feels like. You know, it feels like something dies. You know, it's not you or your wife or your significant other, but something dies. That vision, that shared dream you have of this following this narrative all the way to the celestial kingdom, this idea that of course we've been, we've been sharing and teaching and, and reciting to ourselves for years. And of course, you know, I certainly at the time couldn't believe what I was hearing and, and would go on to hear in the weeks that followed.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:52:18] You know, things like, you know, it's not true. Well, what do you mean? What do you mean the prophets, you know, aren't, not, aren't always the best mediator between people and God? What do you mean by that? You know, of course they're not. Of course they're not that. I know that I'm enlightened and you Know, we talk about, what do you mean truth goes to people in different ways. What do you mean by that? Of course that's the case. And then she's like, I'm like, kinderhook plates. What are you leaving with that for? What are we talking about the kinderhook plates for then? Book of Abraham this and then what the hell is polyandry?

Andrew Ainsworth [00:52:50] You know, where are we going with this? So this is full crisis, right? And many of you here have experienced that full crisis trying to reconcile a nuanced kind of a colored history with what has always been, you know, a fairly clean and as we tend to call here, a sanitized version.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:53:10] So we would go to church and sit in the pews and, you know, and feel like a freight train had just hit us. I would watch the movie Inception. I appreciated Andrew's reference. I was like, oh, we mentioned Inception. But I was sitting there, watch the movie Inception and think, this has got to be a dream within a dream, right? This is like we built a dream world and here comes the kick to wake us up. And, you know, it's like plunging us into uncorrelated Mormonism, you know. And I had read a lot of things over the years, criticisms, you know, church history. And I've gone.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:53:40] I had gone deep into issues such as book Mormon anachronisms and archaeology and had gotten into, you know, certainly been exposed to different things church leaders had said in times past that today we would find very surprising. And I would study, you know, ancient Christian ideas that seem to foreshadow things like theosis. So I felt like I was fairly exposed to most.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:54:02] So at that point in time, of course I'm thinking like many of you maybe say, well, this isn't what I signed up for. What is happening here? This is a worldview imploding. So this was not the storybook narrative of a happily married in the temple, card carrying couple in the church. But key number one is that I knew that I had to have an open mind. You have to have an open mind, and that's key number one. You certainly cannot trade a family and commitment for institution. After all, my grandparents and other aunts and uncles who were not of our faith, you know, were very good people and I knew them well and loved them.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:54:40] And I trusted that you could study it out in your mind and find truth no matter where it lied, that we could seek ye out of the best books, words of wisdom. And I trusted, you know, Gordon B. Hinckley himself, you know, would say that, hey, our History is an open book.

Peter Breinholt [00:54:56] So.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:54:56] And I had studied the gospel in depth, you know, to where I could. I too would know that not all is always well in Zion, right? I read Jesus the Christy and would often read the tales of the Pharisees and think it sounds like people might ward a little bit.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:55:10] So you always know things are never perfect. And I also knew key number two was it's very important that I could not judge, important not to judge, because we're wired to do that in the church. You know, that constant evaluation of things as either right or wrong, good or bad. So that evaluation, classification, that labeling, that analyzing, you know, that creates a lot of turbulence within your internal dialogue and will prevent you from finding truth. So very important not to judge.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:55:44] And that will cut you off from the spirit of peace, you know, trying to find that spirit of peace. I knew I had to judge. I couldn't judge, had to have an open mind. I wanted to study it out, seek truth and let that take us where it would take us and maybe we would find it in strange and unexpected places.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:56:01] Because I always believed, because I'd connected. I had personal experience with God in Mormonism. So I knew truth was out there despite some of these new things that forced you to kind of reevaluate. So I, I read it all, right? Got into. I read it all. I read everything from In Sacred Loneliness to the Mormon Hierarchy, Origins of Power, read Rough Stone Rolling, I read David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism, read Woman in Authority, the Reemerging Mormon Feminism, read the Joseph Smith Papers, read current conference talks and articles by the Maxwell Institute and Fair, and searched everything for looking for consistency and coherence in the narrative.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:56:41] And I was reminded, of course, that we teach our children to follow the prophet and teach our adults the same in Ensign issues and conference talks. And certainly know, on the other hand, though, that prophets and apostles sometimes use dramatic and use emphatically strong and eternally certain language over the pulpit and general conference things that we now find objectionable or laughable, you know, ranging from Adam being the only God we have to do with the famed Adam God doctrine to intermarrying being a sin that would separate you from the presence of God.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:57:15] So I knew that prophets and apostles don't always speak for God. They don't always. And I was thankful to read Elder Christofferson's talk where he said not everything spoken by a church leader is indeed church doctrine, but rather is a personal, though well considered opinion.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:57:35] So we got into it all. We confronted conflicting accounts of foundational events of the church, reviewed significant enhancements to the Book of Commandments when it was later published as a Doctrine and Covenants, and confronted things like the writings of William Clayton, you know, that dutiful scribe to Joseph Smith, on whose writings we so much depend for so much of our history. You know, the same guy who wrote the beautiful hymn Come, Come, Ye Saints, you know, where he documents that the Abrahamic test for Emma, which is whose retraction, is now canonized in DNC 132,51. So through it all, you know, obviously having an open mind, yeah, sure, my jaw hit the floor a number of times, I.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:58:13] I couldn't believe what I was reading and had no answer for my dear wife who was navigating the dark night of the soul. And so I was shocked at several turns from everything, ranging from statements from church Kirk leaders in the late mid to late 20th century on topics such as the era and why the church would fund and send busloads of women to oppose that, to the very formal and doctrine expounding language on blacks in the priesthood in very formal venues, you know, which obviously now we look back on with somewhat of embarrassment, which is similar language that they use now today with the gay community.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:58:57] So many things forced us to find a middle way, if such a thing exists. And so through it all, we discussed it with a, you know, as a partnership, talking about the angles, talking till 2 and 3 in the morning when I was traveling on the road and everything was in question. How does all this stuff kind of fit into the grand Mosaic, which is the universe of truth?

Andrew Ainsworth [00:59:23] So another key that I pass on to you, a third key, besides having open mind and not judging, is not to be rigid after all. Heart, hard and rigid, it breaks and it's brittle. And many spiritual traditions teach that the hard and rigid is indeed overcome by the soft that was taught by Jesus Christy and Lao Tzu and the Tao Te Ching and any other number of sources. And I knew there was truth in Mormonism, but that doesn't necessarily have to mean that Mormonism is purely true.

Andrew Ainsworth [00:59:55] The way we tend to talk about it, it's okay to admit imperfections. As you know, it's the fact that even institutions can fall short of the glory of God just like people can. So as you navigate this, if that's what you're doing or maybe someone you love is, remember that, that even institutions will fall short of the glory of God.

Andrew Ainsworth [01:00:17] And the church certainly has truthiness, right? Credit to Brother Colbert, but doesn't mean it has to be true in the sense that many members use it, that it's infallible, perfect and perfectly consistent from the time of Adam until now.

Andrew Ainsworth [01:00:31] But there is spirituality in the world and there is such a thing as truth. Truth for you according to your tongue, and truth for me according to my tongue and my manner of interacting with the divine. Because we're all tapping into that same spirit of the universe, right? We're all tapping into that same spirit that even defined, shaped and influenced Mormonism, the Mormonism that many of us still love and cherish today.

Andrew Ainsworth [01:00:52] So we began seeking this middle ground together and, you know, this way to connect with God while at the same time honoring and respecting our spiritual heritage and spiritual language. Because as I mentioned, this is who we were. We were pioneer breadstock. I mean, leaving was not an option, maybe redefining, perhaps. So we wanted to place all of these things, including those troubling, problematic or contradictory things, into their appropriate context, which is pretty, perhaps put them in the bucket of personal, though well considered opinion or perhaps not so well considered opinion.

Andrew Ainsworth [01:01:28] So it's important to do that. And we also learned that the only path to truth, to enlightenment, into spirituality, is to accept and relish the fact that we are all indeed cafeteria Mormons, cafeteria humans, you know, learning here line upon line and precept upon precept, here a little and there a little. So you have to, we have to let go of the rigidness. And we knew that what one wise sage said is true. And I quote, the only way to get anything in the physical universe is by letting go.

Andrew Ainsworth [01:02:02] Let it go and it'll be yours forever. He went on to say that holding onto anything is like holding your breath. You would will suffocate. So let it go and it'll be yours forever. So we wanted to stay and retain who we were, you know, what our identity was.

Andrew Ainsworth [01:02:18] But we wanted to, but we knew it had to be different. So what does this make us, right? What does this make me, you know, uncorrelated new order? What does this make us, you know, nuanced? The beautiful truth of life is that really there is no middle way. Everybody is nuanced and everybody is uncorrelated in some degree on some issues, whether they happen to be obscure doctrinal questions or even big temple recommend threatening questions. It's. There's just your way.

Andrew Ainsworth [01:02:47] Chelsea and I wrestled with these ideas and as I mentioned, discussed them into the wee hours of the morning. And we've concluded that you can't be just in or out. You just need to be. You just need to be who you are. So we decided to find truth with the tools that work, as sometimes those tools involve Mormonism. Indeed. And we still attend faithfully every Sunday. And I still retain a faith that empowers me to this day. And sometimes it doesn't involve tools found in Mormonism. Sometimes they're from other traditions, and that's okay, too.

Andrew Ainsworth [01:03:19] Robert Frost's beautiful but almost now virtually cliche poem rings true. You know, when two rows do diverge into wood, you have to. You should take that load, rest, travel by. It will indeed make all the difference. So what does that make us? What does that make me? Well, I'm Michael Fife, and I'm a business owner. And I'm a runner. And I'm a father. And I'm a Mormon. Still. Thank you.

Guest [01:03:54] And I don't know what kind of weirdo gets off on seeing people in their underwear, especially if it's the Mormon kind. However, I am really nervous, so I'm going to imagine you as the type of people I am most comfortable with. And those are my high school students.

Guest [01:04:11] So now all of you have really bad hair and acne. And if you're sitting next to someone who you find yourself physically attracted to, please scoot away from that person and pretend that you hate them. A few weeks ago, my students and I read a short story by Percival Everett called the Fix. In the story, a man named Sherman Olney can fix anything. He starts out with broken refrigerators and faucets, but eventually he is faced with bigger problems. Marriage problems, tax problems. And one night, he solves the ultimate problem. He raises someone from the dead. Sheesh. I'm getting emotional already.

Guest [01:04:51] The end of the story finds Sherman standing on the Golden Gate Bridge, preparing to jump. He feels overwhelmed by the demands from everyone to fix their problems. A crowd stands below, begging him not to jump, screaming, fix us. Fix us.

Guest [01:05:08] Like the people in the story, I've spent a long time wanting to be fixed. When I was an angsty teenager who loved poetry, I loved the John Donne poem where the speaker begs God to batter my heart into submission and faith. Even as a teen, I felt like a bad Mormon. I balked at seemingly nonsensical rules about earrings and dress length. Since when did God care about earrings and knees in young women's? The talk of finding a man to preside over my family made me shudder. I found the rhetoric on homosexuality disturbing. It didn't help that my parents raised me as an ardent Democrat, alienating me from my peers.

Guest [01:05:48] If I had A dollar for every time a classmate told me that Democrats like killing babies. Well, I'd be really rich. And since I used to be a full tithe payer, the church would be too. We could have built that mall a long time ago.

Guest [01:06:04] Despite feeling different from my peers, I found myself mimicking them in most religious settings. Like my peers, I'd offer tearful testimonies around the youth conference campfire promising that I knew the church was true. I loved my parents and I believed President Hinckley was a prophet. I could never admit it, even to myself, but I think I hoped that if I said it enough, I'd believe it. Fake it till you make it was my subconscious spiritual mantra.

Perspectives on Mixed-Faith Marriage

Guest [01:06:30] Sometimes I would fantasize about a cataclysmic event that would give me an instant testimony. Nothing painful or maiming. Just a pissed off angel calling me to repentance or a near death experience that would solidify my faith. I was really jealous of Alma the Younger. All he had to do was sleep for three days and suddenly his faith crisis.

Guest [01:06:54] So I would pray for my Heavenly Father to help me believe. Help me believe. Better send an angel. Make this easier. Fix me. Fix me. It wasn't the first or the last time God didn't answer my prayer. For the record, I'm still waiting for him to cure my add, fix my really short temper, and fix my really huge and ugly feet.

Guest [01:07:16] None of those have happened yet. As an adult I sought a new path. My journey out of traditional Mormonhood started when I took out my endowments in the LDS Temple a few weeks before marrying my husband. When I promised to hearken unto my husband as he hearkened unto God, my heart broke inside. After all the weeks I spent repeating young women values as a teenager, confidently believing in my own divine nature and individual worth, it all came down to listening to somebody else for eternity. I love my husband, but I'm not one to hearken.

Guest [01:07:50] Suddenly, it would take a lot more than an angel or a three day nap to make me believe enough to accept my temple covenants as doctrine. But it wasn't until conference 2010 with the fateful Elder Packer talk that I was finally ready to leave my perfect Mormon path. Up until then I had followed the Mormon blueprint perfectly. A baptism, young women's medallions, seminary graduation, followed by a temple marriage to a returned missionary. Despite feeling broken, I was willing to try. Willing to shelf my unease about the temple and patriarchy if it meant that God would fix me and make me a perfect Mormon. But Packer's talk signified all that was wrong with my faith.

Guest [01:08:27] I was doing mental gymnastics to make myself believe. And apparently I wasn't the only one. When Packer asked why would Heavenly Father do that to someone? He was asking why God would make someone gay. We disagreed on the message, but ironically, Packer and I were asking the same why would our Heavenly Father do that to anyone? Why would Heavenly Father make it so hard for me to be Mormon? Why would he deny me access to a heavenly mother if I was his child? Why did I need a husband to hear him? Why would Heavenly Father do that to anyone?

Guest [01:09:01] Like the people in the Percival Everett story, I was once again broken and confused. Confused, begging anyone to fix me. So I decided if I couldn't be a perfect Mormon, I'd be an awesome apostate. I broke my spouse's heart when I told him he wouldn't have the perfect Mormon family he signed up for. I wrote really angry blog posts criticizing the church. I stopped praying and I would mentally berate myself when I would slip up and ask for help from God. Stop it. I think you don't believe that anymore. But it wasn't enough that I didn't believe. Week after week I tried to convince my true believing husband to see the error of his ways and enter the world of shopping on Sunday and R rated movies.

Guest [01:09:41] Both of which are awesome. Sorry my dad's in the audience. Sorry dad. Despite my anger and bravado, I was scared. I needed someone to help me be this new person. If I could convince my husband to leave, it would validate my choice. It would fix me. I wanted my spouse to help me stop believing, help me apostatize better, make this easier. Once again, I was asking someone to fix me.

Guest [01:10:09] However, Dan had other plans. Plans that did not include leaving the church. He did, however, want to fix me, but not in the way I wanted. He didn't understand why I couldn't look past the things that bothered me about the church. There's a tendency in the church to attribute disaffection with a simple offense. That's why band aid statements like the church is perfect but the people are not exist.

Guest [01:10:31] Dan thought it was silly that I would leave the church based on something an old man said in General Conference. Like many who are perplexed when an active member decides to leave, he thought I was simply offended. At the time. He didn't realize the root of my disaffection stemmed from core doctrines of the church. I found felt the negative impact of patriarchy and inequity in my life. For me, the feelings of powerlessness and worthlessness I felt in the temple and during Elder Packer's conference talk wasn't an issue of an imperfect people, but a deeply flawed church.

Guest [01:11:02] The more I distanced myself from the church, the more active Dan became. He was not just an active member, he was a super member. He served in the elders quorum, he went on campouts in the middle of winter with the scouts. And if there was an old lady who needed help cleaning up her yard, he was there.

Guest [01:11:18] There was no talking him out of the church. Even when I replaced my believer underwear with a much more aesthetically pleasing option. That is a really strong testimony. And I just made a joke about my underwear in front of my dad. Sorry dad.

Guest [01:11:34] Much stronger than the fake his testimony was much stronger than the faked testimonies of my teachers teenage years. But the different directions of our lives made me wonder if our marriage had a chance. When discussing potential subjects for this talk with a friend, it was suggested that I talk about the humorous aspects of living in an apostate believer marriage. Maybe I will find this hilarious in a few years, but right now I just don't see the humor yet. But I do see hope. At some point in our never ending battles on religion, I realized something very important. I didn't marry Dan because he was Mormon.

Guest [01:12:06] He didn't marry me because I was a Mormon. We married each other after a long road trip where we didn't kill each other. We liked talking to each other. We had always been opposites in many ways. He liked Star Trek, playing Ultimate Frisbee and voting for Republicans.

Guest [01:12:23] I liked crappy reality TV poetry and voting for awesome people. If I could love a Trekkie, couldn't I love a true believing Mormon? If he could listen to my bachelorette recaps, could he love a questioning nonbeliever? Partially out of exhaustion from fighting and mostly out of devotion, Dan and I decided to really listen to each other. We stopped trying to convince the other to change.

Guest [01:12:50] I learned some important things when I stopped trying to apostatize my husband. I learned that his faith went deeper than callings, outings and service projects. He believes. He believes with his whole heart and it is an integral part of who he is. His belief has made him a kind person. He is a great example of someone who tries his very hardest to live the gospel of Jesus Christy.

Guest [01:13:12] He loves his neighbor and forgives trespasses against him. Dan wouldn't be the same person if he wasn't Mormon. Dan didn't need to leave the church to live an authentic life. He was already living authentically, but I was not. I was not being authentic when I was half heartedly repeating the testimonies of my peers.

Guest [01:13:31] But I was also not authentic when I forced myself to stop praying and refused to let myself realize that there are some parts of my Mormon heritage I want to keep. I'm going to wipe my eyes on my sweater and you guys are going to be okay with it.

Guest [01:13:45] Sorry. And I'm going to blame hormones, but this is just me, okay? I remember the first time I prayed to my Heavenly Mother. I was driving to work. I found out I was pregnant and I didn't know what to do.

Guest [01:14:04] My prayer was uncertain. I didn't have any rehearsed lines to fall back on, but I knew I wanted to try. When I prayed and felt immediately comforted, I wasn't sure if it was because the Divine Presence was answering my prayer or if I felt peace because I was finally allowing myself to live the spiritual life I wanted. Maybe it was both.

Guest [01:14:25] There are many things I no longer agree or believe in in regards to Mormonism. Likewise, there are many things I no longer believe about myself. I no longer believe I need to be fixed. It is a difficult path, the one between believer and nonbeliever. I am constantly re evaluating the world I live in to make room for the faith traditions of my past and the faith journey of my present.

Guest [01:14:48] True believers and non believers may question my devotion to either cause, but living an authentic life allows me to be a better person, a better spouse and a better parent. Dan and I have found some common ground. I still don't like Star Trek and he still hates reality tv. But we both want a better world for our daughter. We both want the church to be a better place. Dan now understands the pain and negative consequences of some church doctrine. He has seen and watched me live with consequences of decisions I didn't make. And he wants more for our kid. I have seen the good the church does in helping my husband live the gospel.

Guest [01:15:23] He believes I want my daughter to love others like he does. Last Sunday, we both blessed our daughter. I prayed that my daughter would learn empathy and compassionate compassion for others, traits I see in her dad every day. Dan prayed that our daughter would have wisdom and a discerning mind, traits he is learning to see in me as I question and reevaluate my faith. Neither of us prayed for our daughter to be fixed like me. And like Dan, she was never broken to begin with.

Guest [01:15:50] If there is a heavenly family who loves us. I say this in their name. I also say this in the name of my new authentic family. In the name of Stephanie, Dan and Clara Alice Lauritsen. Amen.

Peter Breinholt [01:16:21] Come, come, ye saints no toil nor labor fear but with joy wend your way Though hard to you this journey may appear Grace shall be as your day.

Introduction to the Fourth Session

Part 4 of 5 · Ep. 359

Katrina Anderson [00:00:00] 1, 2, 3.

Peter Breinholt [00:00:04] Come, come, ye saints. No toil nor labor fear, but with joy wend your way.

Guest [00:00:19] This session will end with a special presentation that we have from Benji Schwimmer. As many of you know, originally we had asked Benji to come and speak to us, and circumstances out of his control made it not possible for him to be here. But when Ann and John had originally asked him, they had had a discussion about the fact that how great it would be if we could hear Benjy's story or watch Benjy's story through his favorite medium, which would be dance. And so his being unable to be with us has allowed that to happen. We couldn't figure out how to have it happen live in this beautiful venue. So we are lucky to be able to show to premiere this screening of an original dance about the emotions of his gay Mormon coming out experience. And after Benji's performance, that will be the end of this session and we'll have a 30 minute break.

Katrina Anderson [00:01:15] How many of you had a chance to listen to Benji Schwimmer's interview? Okay, I just want to. I just want to just. I want to thank all our. All our presenters for this session. And last, I want to thank Claudia and Michael and that wonderful young lady Stephanie who just presented to us as well. But I just want to say something about Benji. Benji was really sick that he couldn't come. He was so sad to let us down. But, you know, his career is.

Katrina Anderson [00:01:47] Is important and this movie opportunity was something he couldn't pass up. I feel like getting to know Benjy was one of the great pleasures of my life. I find him to be so thoughtful and compassionate and energetic and entertaining. For those of you who don't know, so youo Think youk Can Dance is produced by the people of American Idol. And Benji won season two and millions and millions of people voted for him all over the world.

Katrina Anderson [00:02:14] This is his video. I want to invite people who are far back to come forward. If you don't feel like you can see, maybe you can kind of crouch down or kind of sit here in front. But I think you're going to really enjoy this dance performance by Benji.

Benji Schwimmer [00:02:30] Hey, I'm a sweaty mess right now, but I found a place to

Guest 2 [00:02:35] dance.

Benji Schwimmer [00:02:36] They let me have it for free for the hour. So I figured I'd approach this dance in an interesting way. Part of my Mormon Stories Conference keynote speech talk thingamajigger was gonna be basically talking about extremes and talking about how wherever you're at, whether you're active in the church, inactive in the church out of the church believing, out of the church non believing, whatever it may be. I feel like we're all taking sides and I'm not really about that. I mean, I might have my beliefs and they may be what they are. And I know that there are many that are at this conference right now and around the world that completely feel otherw.

Benji Schwimmer [00:03:17] And what I'm trying to say is however much we tend to vilify those that are in the opposite position that we are in, I think in the end we all have reason, we all have purpose. And I think we're all generally very good people. And I kind of wanted to talk with Dance about that. Right now nothing's choreographed. I'm just going to improvise. But it's kind of taken my brain to a place and just be.

Benji Schwimmer [00:03:47] I don't know, try and find a place. I know it's pretty for me to dig out where I'm at now, maybe where I was a few years back and how I view people like me right now. And I think it'd be really nice to maybe kind of put all those four perspectives into one dance and one song. And theoretically all the. All the lyrics kind of reflect all of the above and are very neutral. So I hope that people at least in the end can get from this a perspective of holding up a big peace sign. And you know, this is theoretical. It be my white flag.

Benji Schwimmer [00:04:25] I just hope that in the end we understand that everyone has a reason and everyone has their own individual plan, whatever that may be. Whether you think it's from God or from yourself, from your heart's desire. But it is my heart's desire, my wish and my prayer that we can all keep these dialogues open and speak with one another. And instead of rejecting each other because we believe or walk a path that's different from our own or our families, that maybe we can still show a little love, gratitude, Christian charity for everyone.

Benji Schwimmer [00:04:57] Yeah, here it goes.

Guest 3 [00:05:27] A soft hit on my shoulder behind loose plastic pages are some fading photographs Peculiar fashion styles in the corner there's a baby behind the infant smile is a heart I recognize what was I doing in learning to take some steps and walking through adolescence 10,000 miles away and up in heaven God called the meeting and in the space that was next to mine he chose to write your name I never understood whether here or how together life and death must dance But I'll forever be most baffled by the the subtle glances from who I landed what are the chances?

Guest 3 [00:06:51] There's the place where the story about us Started and took the stage it's been so many days and now the brakes are starting to crack Feels a little weird looking back Cause some things have changed Some things have died but somehow you stayed the same all this time I never understood whether you or how to get there Life and death must dance But I'll forever be most baffled by the subtle glances from who I landed what are thirstances?

Guest 3 [00:07:44] Some will say that it goes away I will run and chase it down through that road that rain I will risk my sails and all this boat to be in that storm. Either way I'm gonna stay either way I'm gonna stay. Try to pull me away

Guest 4 [00:08:34] E.

John Dehlin [00:09:34] Welcome. Welcome to our third and final session of this year's annual Mormon Stories Conference. I want to thank everybody again so much for being here. Thank you so much to all the speakers who have spent time preparing thoughts for us. And thank you so much for our planning committee and all the hard work that's gone into the art show, the food, the program, the music, the invites, the information. There's a lot of work that goes into creating a community like this. And for all those who have been involved, thank you so much. And for those of you who come and participate and call this your community, you are why we do what we do.

John Dehlin [00:10:17] And we're so grateful that you come and you support Mormon stories, you support Mormon matters. You listen to the podcast, you get online and communicate on the boards. You leave your thoughts and messages, you reach out and make friends with others. That's what a community is all about. And we're so grateful and we want to tell you thank you.

John Dehlin [00:10:33] And it takes not only people to make a community, sometimes it takes resources, financial resources, so that we can do conferences like this. And so if you feel so inclined, we would encourage you to go and donate@mormonstories.org even $5 really helps work towards what the vision of Mormon Stories is, which is bringing people just like you and me together to share our stories together.

John Dehlin [00:10:58] And so, to start our third session, it is my privilege to introduce Greg Rockwell. He's going to start off our session with an original piece that he's written. I want to tell you a little bit about Greg. First of all, I asked him, what do you want me to say about you? And he told me a little bit about his song. He says, it's a song that I wrote last fall. I wrote it when I was feeling reflective. It encompasses some regret, some hopefulness.

John Dehlin [00:11:26] It's very much about my love, Letty, which was very sweet. And I want you to know that I've had the opportunity, Mike and I both have, to get to know Greg and Letty this last year. And they are a remarkable family.

John Dehlin [00:11:39] And as remarkable a musician and entertainer he is, he is 100 times more remarkable a man. And I'm grateful that I've had the opportunity to get to know Greg. He's offered friendship and a listening ear and advice and push back when necessary. But mostly, he's just been Greg. And so, without further ado, I'd like to introduce Greg Rockwell performing his song, if this Is the Way It Is.

Greg Rockwell Performs an Original Piece

Benji Schwimmer [00:12:13] Thanks. She was lying about all of that.

Peter Breinholt [00:12:21] It's late, I know it's time to go I had too much to drink again I guess I'm hoping for something I could be imagining your smile

Benji Schwimmer [00:12:46] but

Peter Breinholt [00:12:47] every time you read my mind

Guest 1 [00:12:53] you

Peter Breinholt [00:12:53] tell me things are looking up

Guest 2 [00:13:00] But

Peter Breinholt [00:13:00] I've been waiting for something Love that I be witness of something. I should have remembered the little things I should have remembered to pray. I could have been more than a failure I should have anyway

Benji Schwimmer [00:13:38] it's been

Peter Breinholt [00:13:38] too long I forgot this song. Maybe there's someone that can play for me. It seems so distant the melody is more like a memory and I.

Guest 2 [00:14:05] I

Peter Breinholt [00:14:05] should have remembered the day we met I think God was leading the way. If now is a winter of discontent I guess I'll just treasure you every day.

Guest 3 [00:14:30] Sam.

Peter Breinholt [00:14:57] Late I know it's time to go I just want to remember this

Guest [00:15:11] Try

Peter Breinholt [00:15:11] and remember the way we kiss if this is the way it is. If this is the way. I'll be.

John Dehlin [00:16:01] Thank you, Greg. This is my favorite part of the Mormon Stories conferences, when we get to hear an abundance of stories where we get to tell our own stories. And I think a lot of times, through telling our stories, we not only understand one another better, but we begin to understand ourselves better.

Community Story Sharing Session

John Dehlin [00:16:27] I want to share with you an excerpt from Joanna Books. Brooke Joanna Brooks book the Book of Mormon Girl. And she shared this at the Boston conference, and I thought it was appropriate to share here. She says, I grew up riding in fleets of blue paneled family vans, bench seats loaded with children, all going to church in our play clothes on a Wednesday afternoon. Everything perfectly understood among us, all the lyrics memorized, nothing to be explained.

John Dehlin [00:17:03] I grew up in a world where all the stories I heard arrived at the same conclusion. The wayfarer restored, the sick healed, the lost keys found, a singular truth confirmed. And an orthodox Mormon story is the only kind of story I ever wanted to be able to tell.

John Dehlin [00:17:25] But these. These are not the kinds of stories life has given me. Every Mormon carries with them a bundle of stories like a suitcase of family secrets. Polygamous ancestors we've learned to be ashamed of. Histories that reveal the human flaws of the ones who came before us. Doctrines we dare not mention in public for the fear of ridicule, sacrifices we refuse to believe God would ask of us. Stories of loss that do not end neatly with restoration and stories of leaving that do not conclude with the return home.

John Dehlin [00:18:02] In the world I grew up in, it was not okay to tell unorthodox stories. We did not hear them in church, we did not read them in scripture. But sooner or later, they break through to the surface in every Mormon life, in every human life, in every life of faith. I am not afraid of them because this is the story life has given me to tell.

John Dehlin [00:18:31] And so with that, I would like to invite any of you who feel so inclined to come and share your story with us or the lessons that you've learned from your story. And in light of the time that we have, we'd love to be able to hear from as many of you as we can.

John Dehlin [00:18:48] And so as you're sharing your story, if you see a little red flicker in the left of your eyesight, that will be our lovely Ann, very sweetly, letting you know that time is ticking and to carefully and concisely choose the rest of your words. And with that, I'd like to turn the time over to you and we will have our story sharing meeting go until 5:15.

Guest 1 [00:19:21] Hi, my name is Will. I would like to share just some lessons learned from my story. I learned about deep breathing into my abdomen. I learned about love bursting in my heart. I learned about acknowledging and appreciating people and their connections with themselves with me.

Guest 1 [00:19:47] I learned about what it's like to love myself and to love other people. And I acknowledge myself as courageous. But I think the beautiful thing about all of that, right, like the really great thing, the really great thing is that I can see it in all of you.

Guest 1 [00:20:11] I see all of you as courageous. You're so courageous. You're so amazing. And I love you. And I'm not afraid to say I love you. I'm afraid to say I love you, which is the weird thing, right? Like, I'm all shaken up here and those are some great talks. Really touched my heart, connected in with my feelings. And you inspire me. You're all very beautiful people. And I love saying Om Namah Shivaya. So that's what I'm going to say is Om Namah Shivaya.

Benji Schwimmer [00:20:56] All right. I'm sorry. You'll hear from me again. I was having this sort of flashback that I wasn't sort of expecting to have. And I remember a long time ago, somebody said, if you can count to two, it's your turn. So

Katrina Anderson [00:21:14] it was way past two,

Benji Schwimmer [00:21:17] so. And Letty's gone. So that she had to go get cups. That makes it a little easier in some ways. I. I sort of stumbled into a lot of you people. At the end of February of 2011, and it has been a really interesting year and a half and an amazing rebirth of life, Maybe one that I didn't even know I was waiting for in some ways.

Benji Schwimmer [00:22:00] There were some things I knew I was waiting for, but I, you know, I lived a very Mormon existence in sort of most of the things that that means. And one of the things that that meant that was. Was that I was scared to go online, or I knew that it was a bad idea to go online to look up things about Mormonism that somehow that filtered through to me somewhere, and so I didn't. And so I lived with general conference talks and scriptures and teaching Sunday school lessons and listening and listening to people so testimonies and listening to the things they said and the things that I experienced, my own experiences with prayer,

Guest 3 [00:22:55] my

Benji Schwimmer [00:22:56] own disconfirming narratives, and it became very problematic. And I experienced a feeling of the Twilight Zone, and I experienced. And this feeling of really being alone. I started to tell Letty, but I. But she thought I was being deceived by Satan and was tough. And she was really nice about it, though. You know, she's like the nicest when your husband is deceived by Satan, it's tough. And so, you know, she was really good about that, but it's still. She wasn't overjoyed about it either, you know, and when I finally. She finally sort of gave me permission to let go, and I went and I felt really strongly that I needed to figure something out to try and understand why my whole life had fallen apart.

Benji Schwimmer [00:24:04] And it was consuming me. I went online, and I quickly found that there's a lot of Mormons online. They're talking about all kinds of Mormon things. And I found friends, and I found friends like I have never. Like I've never had. And all of a sudden, people would, like, come over to our house and hang out till late and talk.

Benji Schwimmer [00:24:35] And I have said that to so many of you, and that is a big deal. We really felt alone, and we had felt alone for a long time, and so to find that when you break out of Chapel Mormonism, you can find friends who want to come over and hang out at your house and eat your food and. And maybe drink a little wine.

Benji Schwimmer [00:24:59] It is really wonderful, and it's wonderful for all these human things. That is what life is about. Because I wasn't getting the answers to my prayers that I wanted, and God wasn't showing up to fix me or to save me or to set me straight in ways that I wanted. And I felt his absence, and I felt feel your presence.

Benji Schwimmer [00:25:28] And I'm a crier, and so I'm grateful for that. I'm grateful for John. I'm grateful for my friends that I found at New Order Mormon. I'm grateful for my friends that I found here, grateful for my friends at Mormon Expression, grateful for my friends at Sunstone. I'm grateful that we've been able to make friends among all these different communities and really enjoy your presence and enjoy your stories. Sometimes I even enjoy your faith. Sometimes I like, okay, I like it, sometimes I don't. But it's.

Benji Schwimmer [00:26:02] But I appreciate the willingness to talk and I appreciate the willingness to sit down. I love how we all get together and we're like, hey, what's your name? My name is Greg. So tell me your Mormon story. What the heck happened to you? Happens all over the place. It's been happening all day. It's fantastic. I'm grateful for that. And I think this is a good. I think it's a good thing for us to be able to talk. I think it's a good thing for us to be able to get off script and make our own scripts. And I am.

Benji Schwimmer [00:26:32] And yeah, I'm happy about that. I don't know how to close this anymore. I haven't done this before, so. Because I'm kind of. That ship has sailed. So thank you. Thanks for listening to my song, and I look forward to hearing from several more of you now because it's your turn.

Guest 4 [00:26:55] With the beginning of the story sharing time, I was struck by a very strong feeling of full circle since we, Katrina and I organized the conference last year. And I was thinking of people that I didn't know that I now count as close friends.

Guest 4 [00:27:14] And it's a very powerful thing. And also struck by an awareness of so much the hell has happened this year. Huge transitions in our family. And we're still trying to negotiate that, but we're really, really happy where we are.

Guest 4 [00:27:33] I am someone who still bears my testimony from the pulpit, from the other pulpit, and I don't know who notices that I never ever bring up the normal things. Testimony, glove. No, you know, I don't know if this is a wise but I thought I'd give it a try and actually talk about what I believe and the, the list what I do believe in. I believe in love. I believe in connection. I believe in relationships. I believe in human nature. I believe that we need to take our human nature seriously. And we're pretty dumb overall and we're really, really bad at being motivated by the right kinds of things.

Guest 4 [00:28:20] But at the same time we're amazing and we are the dominant species and hopefully we'll continue to survive until we can get ourselves out of the messes we've gotten ourselves into because we can cooperate and we can work together. And I believe in a connection between us more than anything. And I call that spirituality. And so I do believe in spirituality.

Guest 4 [00:28:43] My theism is extremely weak. I'm a very strong agnostic. I take very seriously the fact that we can't that our human nature cannot transform, transcend into the bounds of reality. I take our perceptions very seriously. I feel that our perceptions are sacred and flawed at the same time and that one of the greatest ways that we can transcend our own perceptions is by sharing our stories, sharing our lessons, and we can learn from each other. I have a testimony of the academic and scientific method where, you know, as we each share our situated reality, we can transcend it and that that is one of our greatest degrees to truth.

Guest 4 [00:29:20] I believe that Jesus was an amazing Jewish reformer. I love his message that religion should not get in the way of love. I think that most Mormons would be shocked by the messages of Jesus and the actions of Jesus translated into Mormon Mormon culture. If Jesus came to the LDS church and I think he would be excommunicated

Peter Breinholt [00:29:47] for

Guest 4 [00:29:49] rerouting tithing money, marrying gays and giving women the priesthood. I believe that Jesus as savior is superfluous and we might as well say that Thor helps us work out harder. I believe that the Mormon narrative of priesthood is untenable and that at the same time, if we have a connection with divinity, if we can channel the power of divinity, it is not bounded and limited by one institution because that would make a really dickish God.

Guest 4 [00:30:26] And I believe that. But I do believe in human nature and I believe that we are evolving towards something greater. And I hope that we can reach that. I believe, oh, I think we're getting to the church. I believe that the Book of Mormon is worthy of being counted among world scripture for as much and little as that says.

Guest 4 [00:30:51] I believe that I love Mormon theology, and I think that it has tremendous potential. At the same time, I am deeply, deeply, deeply troubled and saddened by how out of touch the leaders seem currently. And I hope that I can see the church going in one of two directions.

Guest 4 [00:31:14] I think that either it will retrench and be glad that it has saved up so many resources until the second coming, and that it doesn't matter how few members there are or how few people have their tithing because they're right and, you know, let's Jesus come. Or I think that history gives us grounds for some realism, optimism, and I do hope that social embarrassment can catalyze real change. And I can see the Church of Jesus Christy of Latter Day Saints becoming something like the community of Christy. But that doesn't mean that it will be small or fail because we live in a different time. I believe in the power of the Internet, which is one of the most powerful forces, and that plurality and information that we are in the birth pains and labor of something that will be both difficult and great. And I say this in the name of all that is good. Amen.

Guest 5 [00:32:19] My name is Brent, and I'm pretty new to Mormon stories. Last night I thought maybe I was going to sin. When I walked up to the barbecue pit or wherever you were, anyway, I was sitting there and felt something that I haven't felt for a really long time, and something I would call the spirit, maybe eight or ten years ago.

Guest 5 [00:32:50] But from that time until now, I felt like my understanding of reality in the church was causing me to sink below everyone else. I'd look around and see in church, I was not seeing eye to eye with them and what they counted as valuable. I didn't have that as a resource and a pillar to stand on.

Guest 5 [00:33:17] And I just felt more and more like a foreigner. And only in the last couple months, since following Mormon Stories, a podcast, and learning some things, my eyes have been opened up. And then I really felt alone until last night when I came out, and again, I was afraid.

Guest 5 [00:33:48] And I talked to somebody else who came last night, and they were afraid to walk from the parking lot into the group. It was scary, but I talked to so many people and I think felt this authenticity. Not sure what the word is, but you know what I mean, this authentic feeling, authenticity.

Guest 5 [00:34:13] Can't think straight. From everyone I talked to, they were like, let's be open, you know, from the first word. I sat down with this box of subway stuff, and there's the release diety counselor and the bishop's counselor. And they're telling me their story straight up in five seconds flat. And then another person does. And then another person does. I'm thinking, where am I? This is like, I don't know where I've been transported to, but this is honesty.

Guest 5 [00:34:45] And as lost as I feel in my own personal life and with my own precious relationships with people I love very much, I feel, at least in one place in this world, I feel some kind of safety, that people take me at my word for what I'm experiencing. And I suddenly have a hope that I can figure something out and

Guest 6 [00:35:19] that

Guest 5 [00:35:19] I can feel happy. And so I thank you for being honest and being open and sharing and being here, being brave. Appreciate John starting this and everyone else who has joined in to make something meaningful to me. Thank you.

Guest 6 [00:35:45] So much. Like Brent, I was sitting in the sea of everybody and feeling that feeling that I'm sure all you former Mormons and current Mormons can all relate to that. Like, oh, I think I should stand up. Oh, boy, what am I going to say? And so here I am.

Guest 6 [00:36:03] But in the interest of time, I won't bore you with all the details of my story. I'll refer you to Stephanie story because it's very similar. But needless to say, I was struggling for a really long time, and I felt really alone for a really long time.

Guest 6 [00:36:19] And I, in a moment of. I don't even know what to call it, I think I, like, temporarily lost my mind. It was more or less the last Sunday. I was sitting in church. It was fast and testimony meeting, and I just felt desperate.

Guest 6 [00:36:42] I felt so desperate. And I thought, I'm going to go bear my testimony, my UN Testimony, because I had, like, so little I could claim as belief at that moment. And so I stood up and it was mostly just a plea, like, God, I've been trying for so long to. To make this work, and I don't think I can, and I need your help.

Guest 6 [00:37:10] And, wow, that didn't exactly garner the usual, boy, I sure loved your testimony response. As I walked into the foyer, I felt so, like, I felt like a leper. It was really bad. And so I was just kind of walking through the halls and there was all. All these people I've seen for years, right? They've been in my ward and they were just ignoring me, putting their heads down, like, oh, I don't know her. Oh, gee, look who's over here.

Guest 6 [00:37:41] And I just. I was like, wow, that was bad. And there was a guy who grabbed my arm. And I had seen him a few times when I dropped my daughter off at nursery, and he's like, I enjoyed your testimony. And I was like, right.

Guest 6 [00:37:57] And I started to walk away, and he said, no, really. He grabbed my arm and said, no, really, I enjoyed your testimony. And we. I don't remember a whole lot of what we were talking about. And he said, have you ever heard of Mormon stories? And I thought he was asking me if I knew about the I Am a Mormon campaign.

Guest 6 [00:38:14] And I thought, how is that helpful right now? That's really, really not helpful right now. And he. He said, no, it's this website and there's all these podcasts and you might be interested in it. And I thought, okay. And I went home, like, right then, because there was no way I was going to sit through Sunday school early society with everybody trying to ignore that I was there. So I went home and I looked it up immediately, and I just devoured things forever. And then I came into this community, and. You're my people.

Guest 7 [00:38:53] You're who I was looking for.

Guest 6 [00:38:57] And I so much appreciate the openness and the respect that exists in this circle of people. It just astounds me all the time, because I think we're just. We're all over the place, right? Like, some of us are so outside out, and some of us are still pretty in and. But there's so much love. It's so genuine, it's palpable, and it's amazing. And I have to say, also, specifically to. The women in my life right now.

Guest 7 [00:39:35] Dang.

Guest 6 [00:39:39] I'll just say I've never felt this in Relief Society. It's just been incredible, and I have gained so much hope that I'm gonna figure it out. I don't know what it is yet, but I'm gonna figure it out, and I'm gonna do it, because I see you and I see that you have done it or you're on your way. And it's the best example and feeling to know that I'm in good company, that I'm not alone, that there's so many of us who need each other. And I think that that's so important. And so I have to give a shout out to John. Thank you so much for creating this space for us and allowing it to grow into this amazingness that it is now. And like Greg, I'm also not really sure how to close this, but I'm going to go ahead and go with a woman.

Guest 5 [00:40:44] I haven't done this in a while either, and I'm really nervous and I was not planning on getting up today. I knew that there was a sharing portion, but I was just thinking in my head, oh, I'm just going to sit there, enjoy the stories like we've been doing all day, and just keep all my thoughts to myself. But it would not be fair, not only to the great people who put this on, who honestly have helped change my life and kind of explain that in a minute, but also to myself, because I haven't really told my story very much. So I am a gay Mormon, and I've never really said that before in a big group of people, so feel privileged.

Guest 6 [00:41:34] Thank you.

Guest 5 [00:41:38] Thank you. I appreciate that. Only a few people outside of this room know that. And my life started changing a few weeks ago when a very dear friend of mine told me to check out MormonStories.org because of Benji's podcast. Benji Schwimmer, who we saw the video for.

Guest 5 [00:42:02] And like Mike, who spoke earlier, I come from a very spiritual, very spiritual parents. Been in the church my entire life. And they're very, very strong, very spiritual people, people who I respect and love very much. And this is something that I've dealt with since I may have been 11 or 12. So over 10 years that I've dealt with homosexual feelings and with trying to relate that to my beliefs and relate that to how that transitioned to that which didn't happen very well and resulted in a lot of heartache and a lot of pain and a lot of me not being myself and a lot of hiding myself.

Guest 5 [00:42:52] And so when I was. What's the word I'm looking for? Referred. That's the word. Referred to Mormon stories and saw this podcast, I never really before thought of another path. I never really considered ever not having that orthodox, as been said before, that orthodox Mormon path.

Guest 5 [00:43:22] That never entered my mind to not take that path or to not end up, you know, ending up in the celestial kingdom. But that changed. That changed a few weeks ago when I saw that podcast and started really delving into what I truly believed and what I just been kind of wanting to believe because it was easy.

Guest 5 [00:43:53] And it slowly changed. And I can't really express in words how grateful I am for. For the podcast and for this conference. It's true I didn't really know what to expect coming into it today. I was kind of a little bit of trepidation, actually. A lot of trepidation, not gonna lie. But hearing all the stories and especially definitely felt a lot of emotion during Stephanie's because I felt very, very similar in the way that I always felt like I needed to be fixed, I always needed to fix myself, I don't feel that anymore.

Guest 5 [00:44:38] Or at least I'm getting used to the idea, not feeling that anymore. And so I feel like I'm echoing what everyone else is saying, but it does need to be said. John, thank you for putting this together and for everyone bringing together their stories and sharing what we all have in common. We all have different experiences. We all have different challenges with and without the church.

Guest 5 [00:45:08] We all have different life experiences. But there are similarities that we can find throughout all of it. There are common grounds that we can find and relate to each other on. And I'm grateful that I now have a new community, in addition to the one that I already have of great friends and family who can help me

Guest 6 [00:45:29] to

Guest 5 [00:45:31] navigate this new, growing Mormon story of my own. And so thank you so much for listening. And, yeah, I'm gonna end on that.

Keith [00:45:52] You know, I'll keep clapping. It's always a good way to start. My name is Keith. When people ask me who I am, I say, I'm Keith and I'm new. Something I think that many of us, if not all of us, have in common is that at one point or another in our lives, we thought we had it all figured out.

Faith Transitions, Leaving, and Moving Forward

Keith [00:46:15] We had life and family and relationships and everything just pegged. We knew what to do, we knew when to do it. We knew how it was supposed to look. And many of us, I think, also share that moment when we realized we didn't have any idea what the hell was going on.

Keith [00:46:42] And that can be a very scary thing for people when you live your entire life or a good portion of your life, knowing with some amount of certainty what it's all about. To have that fall out from under you can be life shattering.

Keith [00:47:05] And I was in the middle of that, and I hadn't talked to anybody. And I'm sure many people here can also relate with that. It was about a year ago that a friend of mine that I had finally decided to open up to told me to go listen to the Stages of Faith podcast.

Keith [00:47:28] And in listening to that, I realized that there's a whole other world of people out there going through this and going through something similar. And I could have sworn they were just talking about me the entire time they were talking about the Stages of Faith.

Keith [00:47:43] I just wanted to just say that. What a beautiful thing that is to have a whole bunch of people who have no idea what the hell is going on, but are willing to get together and be that Way in a group, As opposed to sitting by ourselves in fear and in anxiety.

Keith [00:48:09] It's so cathartic. Be able to sit down with someone and share your story and to not have any thought of that there's going to be any judgment or that anybody's going to look at you differently or strange for sharing where you are or what you've gone through or how you do or don't identify with the church anymore.

Keith [00:48:30] And much like everybody else, I was hoping some brilliant closing thing would pop in my brain as I was talking. But I'm empty here. So thank you all so much.

Guest 2 [00:48:45] I'd like to bury my testimony. Oh, wait, I did do that. I can't believe I'm doing this. I feel like one of those little kids that says, I'd like to bury my testimony because they don't know what they're talking about.

Guest 2 [00:49:02] I also feel old here. Am I a lot older than almost all of you? I think I am. My wife came to me about two years ago and. And said, was Joseph Smith a polygamist? She's 43 at the time and grew up in the church. My wife and I are both from Mormon stock, polygamous families right back to the beginning.

Guest 2 [00:49:31] The Knights were my progenitors. And, you know, I grew up in the church doing what I was supposed to do, went on a mission, got married in the temple and lived. We lived our life. We had four kids.

Guest 2 [00:49:50] Well, we have four kids and raised them in the church. I worked in the church always. My wife did. We tried to do the family home evening thing, although our kids resisted it at every step. And so when she came to me and said this, I said, well, yeah, he was a polygamist, because I had known that. But let's, you know, it's bothering you, so let's look into it.

Guest 2 [00:50:16] I keep telling people, do not ever look into that. So, you know, we spent a year of kind of nightmare between just she and I looking into this. We didn't know anything about Mormon stories. And, you know, we were just kind of on our own doing this thing, reading, reading, reading, reading, reading.

Guest 2 [00:50:38] And I told my wife, after about a year, I'm just done. And I remember the night I'm laying there in bed, and I just thought, it's okay that it's not true. And I'll tell you, the biggest weight was lifted off my shoulders.

Guest 2 [00:50:55] And I'm not saying that's right for everybody, but it was right for me. And my wife said. I turned to my wife, I said, I just decided it's not true. And she said, I don't think it's true either.

Guest 2 [00:51:05] So we left. There's the second mistake. No, it wasn't a mistake. And that's what I wanted to actually talk about is we have been. We went through a year of hell trying to figure out where we stood with the church. And then once we left, we went through another year of hell.

Guest 2 [00:51:26] And I just want to say to anybody who's out there who's, like my wife and I, who's thinking, should we leave? Should we leave? And then you're thinking about all the consequences of leaving. The consequences can be big, huge.

Guest 2 [00:51:42] We lost literally every friend that we had, our very best friends who happen to be my wife's sister and her husband. The day that I told them, they said, our kids will never come to your house again. Sorry, it's going to make me cry.

Guest 2 [00:52:02] Their kids spent half the summers with us every year. It was horrible. We left in the midst of our son being on a mission. That has not been very great either. You know, after a little bit, he said, just don't talk to me about this. Don't write me about it. Don't talk to me about it. Our daughter, who was 13 at the time, told us we were evil and the devil and so on and so on.

Guest 2 [00:52:33] But it's been a year now, and this is what I want to tell anybody who's in that position of thinking the consequences are going to be terrible. They are terrible. But, man, is it worth it? I'm not saying everybody run off and leave the church, but for us, it was the right choice in the end.

Guest 2 [00:52:53] We spend Sunday now with our kids, not just in the church building with our kids. We spend Wednesday night with our kids. We've developed this new group of friends who are just like us. Ten couples that have left in the last three years or so. They're the best friends ever. You can be who you are with them, and they love us and we love them, and they don't care if, you know, I got too drunk because I'm too stupid to know anything about drinking, because I never did.

Guest 2 [00:53:31] They just say, here's a bed bad. If you get up in the night and can get home, just lock the door. So that's what I want to say. It's terrible. Don't fool yourself about how terrible it will be. But, man, when that cognitive dissonance goes away and you don't have to think, I don't really believe this, but I'm going to do it anyway.

Guest 2 [00:54:00] You don't have to think that anymore. Ah, it's amazing. It's freeing. It's worth it. So that's my 2 cents and my own testimony, I guess. And I'll just leave this with you in the name of boating with my kids on Sunday.

Guest 3 [00:54:25] I thought going to church twice, sorry, twice a month was kind of cool, but once a year, I'm kind of digging this. To borrow from young women is my wife and I are second year. This is our second Mormon Stories Conference. My name is Daniel Singer, by the way, from Springville. And I don't know why I'm up here. I really don't.

Guest 3 [00:54:48] It's probably been maybe a year since I've borne a date traditional testimony in church. But I think I do have a story and it's probably pretty convoluted and there's so much going on. So I'll try and do this before the red light flashes.

Guest 3 [00:55:08] Basically, I'm a redheaded stepchild, literally. And my stepmother made out with Allen Osmond when the Osmonds lived in California. And when my father married her, she brought the church into our lives. I saw it heal an alcoholic in my dad and improve his life.

Guest 3 [00:55:35] And it gave my brother and I some structure because we had nothing. You know, my birth mother was ODing and, and sleeping with other men while we were watching the Brady Bunch when it wasn't on syndication on kbyu.

Guest 2 [00:55:49] And

Guest 3 [00:55:52] from then on, my life just went the perfect, I mean, textbook Mormon route. I did everything. I went on two week missions in California. You can do those before you even go on a regular mission. And anyway, met my wife on my mission, which I guess I look back now and go, that was pretty uncorrelated. But boy, having to explain that away as a TVM forever. Oh, interview time with Sister Moss, huh? Like, it wasn't like that. It wasn't like that incredible handshake.

Guest 3 [00:56:26] But as we're going to do 19 years this November, and I've got an 18, a 16, a 14 and a 10 at home, and this has been a path that we're right in the middle of it, I don't know what to do.

Guest 3 [00:56:48] I do know this. I have always said as a youth in the church, the Lord is directing my paths. I mean, I just, you know, I didn't drink. I was a virgin. I did lay the foundation for a healthy prostate my age when I was a kid. Yes, yes, Elder Packer, I did. Sorry, honey, I don't mean to embarrass

Guest 1 [00:57:18] you,

Guest 3 [00:57:21] but I still hold to that. The Lord Is. Or the universe. The powers. Right. The supreme powers are still leading my life, and I feel right at home here. And I'm a librarian, so really, I mean, I'm kind of inactive anyway. Even when I go to church. Right? I mean, that's those second and third hours. I mean, come on. I'm sorry. Oh, yeah, yeah. I actually was bumming when I got it. I've been in there, like, six weeks. I'm like, really? You're gonna, like, kick me out all my classes? I'm like, what was I complaining about? This was, like, 10 years too late. But anyway, we've all got a story. And I think what I'm discovering, and especially through my wife, is about being authentic. Not only in my. Here comes a cottonmouth.

Guest 4 [00:58:23] Dang it.

Guest 3 [00:58:24] I had two minutes and I've gone past it. I have set boundaries for myself as a Mormon, and I also did that at work the other day, and I got fired on Thursday for doing that. This last 72 hours have been interesting. We were supposed to go to a family ceiling, and that couldn't happen because of some barcodes on some Tubble recommends.

Benji Schwimmer [00:58:52] Okay.

Guest 3 [00:58:56] Anyway, there's a good note to that. I got fired. But then five minutes down the road, I stopped over to friends and I got another job. So it all worked out because I was starting to think, oh, I'm sinning. Of course, being punished. You're uncorrelated. I think I'm doing more now for the relationships of my life than I was doing before. I think of that great old Mormon song, you're Not Alone, and I want to say, you're damn right. Thanks for sharing this journey with me.

Guest 4 [00:59:29] Hello, my name is Brittany, and I am a recent convert to Mormon stories and to the church. I was baptized a year and a half ago, and I don't know what I'm doing here most of the time, but yesterday at the FMH luncheon, we were talking about callings.

Guest 4 [00:59:51] And I definitely feel like I was called to this church. And as the daughter of gay men, I don't know how that happened. And if you told me even a week ago that I'd be standing at a Presbyterian church at the pulpit, sharing my testimony to Mormons, I probably would have thought you were on crack.

Guest 4 [01:00:13] In my ward in Kansas, I was the young single adult representative and the only young single adult in the ward. So I don't know if that was necessarily the most appropriate calling for me. But talking about our callings in this church and. And I'm still trying to figure out what mine is. But listening to you guys and listening to your stories and listening to your. However you're defining your testimonies and however related you are to the church, I feel like your calling has made. It has been to make it easier for me to be in the church.

Guest 4 [01:00:53] I spent my whole life thinking that God hated me, thinking he hated my family. And I didn't know how to reconcile that. And then I met Mormon missionaries and they told me God loves everyone, and I just thought they were foolish. And I spent a year in my own personal faith hell because I didn't know how to have a relationship with a God I thought hated me.

Guest 4 [01:01:21] And then when I found out he did, which is a really long story anyway, but I joined this church. And this is the first place in my entire life, however ironic it is that I felt that God has loved me for who I am and my family for who they are, and he trusted my family enough to send me to them.

Guest 4 [01:01:44] Gay, fabulous men and all sorts of. That's my story, is that. However, I know it's hard for a lot of people to be in this church, but I want to thank you for doing that hard work to make it easier for me to be here.

Guest 4 [01:02:01] And that's all. And while I've never been able to say this in my own words, sharing these testimonies, and I'm not saying this to offend anyone here, but I know that I can can say these things in the name of Jesus Christy, amen.

Guest 2 [01:02:22] Oh, we just moved here in December, so I came. Like, I was like, I'm going to get up there and stand up. I need friends. Like, moving in Utah is hard. So I was so excited to come to this conference. And, like, seriously, that's my goal. So if you need a girlfriend, let's get together.

Guest 2 [01:02:40] I never thought this would be my story. I thought I'd be totally orthodox. My orthodox self would have freaked out that Peter Breinholt performed here. I mean, hello, efycd, like, amazing. But, you know, I think as we all. One thing leads to another, and you can't keep living that story. You can't. That's not your narrative.

Guest 2 [01:03:05] And a year and a half ago in San Diego, I was after Prop 8, after everything, I was done over it. I wasn't going back, but I'd somehow still accepted the calling to be assistant director to girls Camp. So a year ago, I found myself not wanting to ditch out on my friend. So we took 60 girls camping, and I saw a youth group at City Creek yesterday. They were doing A store scavenger hunt. Like, there's 16 year old going, okay, H and M, let's go over here. I was like, why didn't I do that girls camp? Because I would be really good at that girls camp.

Guest 2 [01:03:41] But we did the outdoor version and I was like, man, there is something missing. And so I decided, well, church drives me crazy. I'm going to go to the temple each month. I can do that. Like, I'll just go straight to the temple. Yeah.

Guest 2 [01:03:59] And so I did. And I went once and realized that that wasn't the answer, but that it was okay, that I didn't need to know the answer. I didn't need to know where I was going. And this, that XYZ after you die. And here's three circles and lines and dots and this is your path. We didn't need to know. It doesn't matter if every single day, you know, you wake up and you're wondering and you're questioning. I think that's what we're here for. And I just left and I stood out there with my little tumble bag and I said goodbye. Like, my story is not going to be that story, but it's going to be something awesome because God loves me and I can thank Mormonism for that.

Guest 2 [01:04:43] So I don't know. We're still on this adventure. We moved back to Utah in December and I work right in the thick of Zion, if you will. But it's awesome and we're excited to be here. And yeah, I just in the name of being authentic, I thank you so much for having this community and it's awesome. It was a year ago that we got on the i15 to head up to Matt Valentine's house and turned around halfway there because I was too scared.

Guest 2 [01:05:14] But we, you know, kept coming, connected with that community and we're excited to be in new tongue connect with this one. So thank you so much. Amen.

Guest 7 [01:05:28] I'm going to try to be really short because I gave my testimony last year. I'm an egomaniac. Sorry. I don't get a lot of chances to bear my testimony because I don't go to church as much as I used to. But I appreciate the stories that people tell about leaving the church because that's not where I'm at and I've yet to be there.

Guest 7 [01:05:50] I am now inactive. A year ago, I was in young women's and I asked to be released because I had to go through girls camp and modesty and teaching lessons that I was like, oh, I can't do this.

Guest 7 [01:06:04] So out of respect for other people in my life, I decided to not be at church. I hope that will change, but. But we'll see. So on the other side of the coin, I know that there are a lot of naysayers that will think that Mormon stories or anything like Mormon stories is anti Mormon or that it promotes people who leave the church. And I'm here to be a person that says this does the opposite for me. If it weren't for Mormon stories, my marriage would be gone.

Guest 7 [01:06:38] Mormon stories saved my marriage. Just when I think that I am fine with leaving the church and I'm fine with being done with it, and that's not who I am, I'm reminded that that's not my story or my tell, that I have to be here, that this church is my church and I'm claiming it.

Guest 7 [01:07:02] So I'm here to say that. But the hardest part about a faith transition is the during, not the before and the after. Because before everything's great, and after, you've got this weight lifted off your chest and Mormon stories is here for you during your faith transition.

Guest 7 [01:07:24] And that is like the hardest part, right? Because when, once you've made that decision, it's fine. And some days I think, oh, I've made that decision. I can leave. I have this peace now. I can love all people and I don't have to have this tiny, narrow view.

Guest 7 [01:07:43] But then I have a day where I walk in the Pride Parade as a Mormon because my name's still on the books. People. I can claim that. And I watch people stand for me as I'm walking this Pride Parade and saying thank you to me, which I'm not doing anything. I'm doing something that should have been done years and years ago, and hugging me and crying and embracing me and telling me thank you for walking in a parade.

Guest 7 [01:08:14] And those are the moments when I say, no, I have to stay. Because if I don't, who is going to? Someone needs to be the person that. That's willing to walk in a parade. And if there's only 30 of us or 400 of us, then that's fine. I can be that person.

Guest 7 [01:08:31] So I just want to say thank you to all the brave, brave people, not only the brave people that were able to face their own truth and transition out of the church and go through that really hard time in their life. But thank you to the people who inspire me to stay and tell me that I do have a calling. And it may not be in young women's, but I do have something that I'm a part of that I need to be a part of, and I can feel it, and I can't let it go. And it's not even about, like, believing if the church is true, because I don't need that.

Guest 7 [01:09:05] I'm fine with it. It's just like what that gentleman said before. It's okay. And I love that it's okay that I don't know. It's this great new world, but I know that I can't leave Mormonism as a culture, and I never will be able to. I love it too much. And I've always been a fan of the church, and I know that sometimes someone will come up and try and tell me their story, and I'm on the other side of already have gone through that. And I'm just like, I know that what you're going through right now is so hard, but I'm so over it.

Guest 7 [01:09:36] And it's like, no, I have to remember that I was there once, and it is so hard. So when someone comes and tells you their story and they're in the middle of it and they're, like, in the thick of it, where they're up at night just bawling their eyes out and reading everything they could get their hands on to be like, how do I deal with this?

Guest 7 [01:09:56] You know, who in my family is going through this secretly? Who My friends can I go through? And they have nobody. I would go to people who had tried to convince me the church wasn't true before and had left completely. Their name was off the books. And I would email them and I would call them and text them, and they did not want to talk about it. And I thought, how dare you?

Guest 7 [01:10:16] Because when you were going through this, I had to sit and listen to this as a TBM and not know what to do for you. And now that you are free, you're not willing. And now I know it's so hard to relive it and relive it, but you have to, because you have to remember when. When you were in the thick of it. You have to be willing to listen to others. And it's just like when I walked in the parade. It's like I see people bawling and realize, oh, my gosh, there's some people that are still in that right now.

Guest 7 [01:10:47] Thank goodness I'm not. But there are people that are still every day going through that, and they need someone to walk for them. And so I just want to say thank you. I'm so sorry to take over time.

Guest 7 [01:11:00] But I love all of you so much, and I'm so grateful for Mormon stories and for people being open minded and for just love. So thank you.

Katrina Anderson [01:11:12] Every time we have a conference, I have the idea of putting a little sign right here that says, don't mention John in your testimony because it's embarrassing to me. Every time someone does. I, I don't, I don't want that. I don't want that kind of recognition. I really don't. Even though I, I do enjoy trying to help people.

Katrina Anderson [01:11:43] But one of the. The main reason why I feel that way is because I, I've done so little, little to, to make this happen. Today I did the podcast and I've spoken with a few of you and sometimes I have some ideas. But the only reason this conference is happening is because of the work of so many other people here that don't get mentioned because they're behind the scenes.

Katrina Anderson [01:12:15] About a. About a year and a half ago, the Book of Mormon musical was coming on in New York, and I just wanted to see it, so I just put it on my Facebook page. Anyone who wants to meet me in New York, let's see the Book of Mormon musical together and maybe have a little conference.

Katrina Anderson [01:12:32] And it was there that I met. Well, it's there that I talked to Ann Peffer for the first time. And I said at this crazy little lunch, I said, what if we created these Facebook communities, you know, in different cities? And then, because I can't help all the people that keep coming to me, maybe these people could help each other and maybe they could have playgroups and book groups and dinner groups and whoa. What if we could do this conference in lots of these conferences in lots of cities, and if there was big enough groups, we could actually travel to the cities and try and, you know, bring people, people together and demonstrate that the believers and non believers alike can love each other and support each other.

Katrina Anderson [01:13:15] And it was Ann who came back that very next weekend and created like 60 Facebook groups in a matter of, like an hour or two. And she's the reason why these conferences are happening. And I think she, she deserves the applause. She's right back there.

Guest 4 [01:13:41] She's hiding.

Katrina Anderson [01:13:44] She's hiding. Maybe she'll step out. Someone should go get her. I don't think she knows they're clapping for her. Oh, is she here? She's here. I'm sorry. She's right here. Thank you. So thank you. Thank you. A year ago, we had the Salt Lake City conference, and I had just recently met Jared And Katrina Anderson.

Guest 8 [01:14:15] Right.

Katrina Anderson [01:14:16] You guys were kind of new to this deal. And by the end of it, I said. I looked at them, like, loading up their big SUV at the end into that conference, and I said, there's no way I'm ever seeing them again, you know, after this conference, because it was a lot of work. She said, I'm done with. I'm done. She said, I'm done with Mormon stories for a while. Right? That's what she said. Yeah. And I just want to thank Jared and Katrina for planning this conference. I hope Jared can hear that as well. And also just everyone who's been involved in the food and the planning and the music and the logistics. Would everyone please stand and just let us thank all of you? Is that all right? Please, please, all of you. Amanda Rockwells, Greg and Letty,

Closing Remarks and Conference Farewell

Guest 2 [01:15:14] thank you.

Guest 3 [01:15:23] There's other.

Katrina Anderson [01:15:24] There's so many people to thank, and I don't think I have time to thank everybody. I want to thank Andrew for coming. Andrew is really special to me just because I've known him for a while, and when I was going through some hard times and he was really faithful, he would debate with me about, you know, why I should stay in the church. And then. And then his life flipped, and he ended up leaving the church. And I took. I felt responsible.

Katrina Anderson [01:15:55] I don't know if I've told you that before, but. And then when you got divorced, I felt responsible, too. And I know that life doesn't fully work that way, but. But that's. It's hard to see. Change can be beautiful, and change can be painful, and that's just life. It's not just Mormon stories. But, Andrew, your words were brilliant, and you're an amazing writer, and you're just a sweet soul. I just want to thank you for who you are and for coming.

Katrina Anderson [01:16:30] Jana Reese, you were brilliant. Are you still here? Jana, we just love you, and you're a gift to all, all of us. And thank you for coming. And again, the other talks are really good. I'm sorry. I'm just wanting to thank a lot of people.

Katrina Anderson [01:16:46] I guess I just want to close by. There's so many of you who have had me in your home, and you guys know who you are. And I want to thank all so many of you for welcoming us and sharing. I'm so humbled the people would volunteer for something like this, because this is kind of a crazy venture, and

Guest 2 [01:17:09] I

Katrina Anderson [01:17:09] don't even know what we're doing really, other than just trying to be together and support each other. My Favorite parts of these meetings are when non believers and then believers get up and adjacent to each other, share their feelings and they're both applauded.

Katrina Anderson [01:17:27] I think that's the most powerful thing we do, and I can't get enough of that. The final thing I just want to say is that I get really depressed sometimes about these things because sometimes I have these visions of what's going to happen, and things don't always turn out the way that I envision.

Katrina Anderson [01:17:47] This conference is bigger than last year. We had over 200 people, which was really pleasantly surprising. But. But I envisioned. I envisioned sort of seeing the same people the previous year and then seeing it grow. And the truth is, what I'm seeing is a lot of the same faces, but a lot of people kind of come when they're having a hard time and then they move on.

Katrina Anderson [01:18:10] And, you know, it's hard to see people move on, but that's probably healthy that people don't always stay in the hospital. You know, it's kind of healthy that at some point they get better and they go on. And so. But it makes me wonder, you know, sometimes what we're doing this for, if this is a hospital or if this is something more, you know, kind of this whole Mormon stories enterprise, you know, what is it? We're not trying to start a church. We're not trying to criticize the church.

Katrina Anderson [01:18:43] And I guess I just want to leave you with the. Just with this idea that this all happened because of all these wonderful people here and because of you. You guys coming and trusting. And we really need your help to know where this is all going. If all it's going to be is a hospital kind of a way station for people on a journey, that's okay. But we need some of you who feel like you've moved on to maybe stick around enough to help others along the way, because we can't do it alone. And so I just want to. I just want to make the plea that for those of you who someday, you're going through it right now, kind of like Chelsea said, if you're struggling right now and then in a couple months you're feeling a lot better, consider sticking around to help out, just to kind of pay forward what.

Katrina Anderson [01:19:37] What you were able to receive. Because we can't. We can't do this without you. And I just. I just want to, you know, end by saying that getting to know all of you has been the greatest treasure of my life. And what's even more special is seeing you guys get to know each other and to see what, what, what happens when people share their stories and their truth in a really authentic way. I think that's the most beautiful thing in life is when people connect just soul to soul in an authentic place, sharing their stories.

Katrina Anderson [01:20:22] And you guys inspire me and uplift me, and I'm just so grateful. And thank you so much for your trust and for your examples that lift me every single day. Thank you for coming and thanks again for everyone who made this happen. So thank you.

John Dehlin [01:20:55] Thank you all so much for sharing your stories. Thank you all so much for creating a safe environment for those of us who wanted to share our stories. It's been a fantastic conference and again, thank you all so much for coming and participating and for being part of this community that's meant so much to so many of us.

John Dehlin [01:21:15] A few last thoughts before we leave. I would just love to encourage everyone, everybody to look at the art one last time. Make sure you look at it and appreciate. A lot of work was put into preparing the art show. Also, make sure you notice the T shirts that are there. The proceeds go to help Mormon stories and help put on conferences and things like this. Jana's books are outside, and if you haven't got one yet, take a minute to grab it. She told me she'd be happy to sign it if anybody wants to grab her. And Sunstone's got a great booth out there and some really exciting things going on.

John Dehlin [01:21:46] So if you haven't seen them yet, check out Sunstone. Our closing number is a congregational hymn, Come Thou Fount. It's in the program. Greg Rockwell and Tia Callister are going to be our accompaniment. Oh, oh, you are not Tia.

John Dehlin [01:22:12] Greg and Keith are going to do accompany our music, and Katrina is going to lead. And if you'll look at the words, the very last line, we're going to sing that line twice, so keep your eyes on Katrina.

John Dehlin [01:22:22] And when we're done with the song, Adam Jacobson will give us a traditional prayer and we'd invite you all to stick around. Let's see my notes. Ben Washburn is going to give us an awesome show after everybody's enjoyed a slice of pizza, which you guys can enjoy outside, and then come on in for the end of it. So with that, we'll have our last musical number of the day.

Guest 3 [01:23:02] Lord,

Peter Breinholt [01:23:30] Seal it for the throne.

Guest 8 [01:23:50] Our Father in heaven, we thank thee to have been among friends this day and to have felt what we felt and to have the blessing of community that for many of us has been missing for too long. We're grateful for those who have organized this gathering and for all the work that they put in. We're appreciative of them. Are grateful for those who have prepared artwork for us to view and appreciate.

Guest 8 [01:24:22] We're grateful for the music that's been shared and the talents that have been shared. We're grateful for those who have spoken to us and enlightened us, counseled us and shared their experiences, and for all those who have shared their stories.

Guest 8 [01:24:37] We're grateful, Father, to be able to be together. We are grateful, grateful also for the example of Jesus Christy, who, as a good shepherd cares for his entire flock, especially those who may appear to some to have strayed.

Guest 8 [01:25:01] We pray for Thy grace to be upon us. We pray for Thy blessing to be upon us always. We acknowledge the struggles of many good members of the church in this information age, and we pray for healing. We pray for understanding.

Guest 8 [01:25:28] Among members of the church, among family members, siblings and spouses and friends. We are very grateful unto Thee for the outpouring of Thy spirit and the good feelings that we felt this day. We pray that Thou will send Thy spirit always to any of Thy children who always call upon Thy name. We close this conference and do so with love. In the name of Jesus Christy. Amen.

Peter Breinholt [01:26:24] Come, come, ye saints. No toil nor labor fear, but with joy when you're away. Though hard to you this journey may appear. Grace shall be as your day.

Comedy and Mormon Culture with Bengt Washburn

Part 5 of 5 · Ep. 360

Bengt Washburn [00:00:00] 1, 2, 3. Come, come, ye saints no toil nor labor fear but with joy wend your way.

John Dehlin [00:00:19] Ben's hilarious. He's been on major television shows. He's won major comedy competitions. He's actually going to be at Wise Guys at Trolley Square next week from Thursday to Saturday, Thursday to Sunday. Now, you're going to have to explain that. You've got some splaining to do on that one. Bengt Washburn. Anyway, we love Ben. We're really honored that he would come. So give it up for Bengt Washburn, everybody.

Bengt Washburn [00:00:49] Thanks, John. Thank you. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. And the recording. Is the lighting better than here, or is it better over here? Right. Right here. Oh, because it. It's coming down from above, which we call in the Mormon standup biz first vision lighting. And it's kind of like I'm going to be. I'll try to be kind of reverent because this is not a comedy club at all. So we're not going to. Don't worry. If you go to the comedy club and I do a show, some of you should not be there. You're too young. I'm looking right now. Do not come to the show.

Bengt Washburn [00:01:32] Especially that little one there in the green in the aisle. All right. Well, I'm not sure how to start. This is the first time I got to come here and actually see some. I got to see the previous meeting in its entirety. I walked out during John's part, but I saw.

Bengt Washburn [00:01:54] And it was powerful and awesome and I really enjoyed it. I was worried about doing comedy after it, frankly. But then they served food and I think, ah, that'll erase everything if you notice that. I think that's true. It, like, clears your palate.

Bengt Washburn [00:02:09] You're like, oh, that.

Bengt Washburn [00:02:10] It was moving pizza. All right. And so. And then I came. I actually caught. Just before that, I caught the guitar music. Is he still here, Greg? Yeah. Very nice. Yeah. Wonder. I like a guitar in church. I get. When they start doing drums and. You know what I mean, and then synthesizers and a bass guitar and all when. You know what I mean, that I'm a little. It's like the. Hey, if we make really hip music, if they're trying to bring people into their church, you know, do you see I'm saying, like, hey, we have a really cool band, Then they'll come. I wish they just.

Bengt Washburn [00:02:49] Some of them would just stop saying some of the stupid stuff they're saying instead. You know, maybe they won't notice how dumb that stuff we just said was. If we have strobe lights and a hot lead singer. They won't notice how stupid we sound. And I'm against that. It's like they've adopted the ethics of American pop music.

Bengt Washburn [00:03:15] If you have a nice beat, they won't notice the stupid lyrics. So that was a new one just for you. How many people are here, by the way? All of you. You got me on that one. I didn't see that coming. I should have. I'm a pro.

Bengt Washburn [00:03:40] I didn't see that. Looks like about a thousand. That's one of the. I enjoy just checking in every once in a while with the thread on the Mormon stories and learning things. I had no idea. I had no idea we were exaggerating the counts of Mormons. Did you know that? They were like, yeah, there's not that many of us. I mean, I was kind of suspicious because I get out and about a lot, you know, but exaggerating a lot. I saw the difference in numbers. I like, who's responsible for. For this exaggerate. Is this Paul H. Dunn? Was he in charge of the census?

Bengt Washburn [00:04:17] This looks like his handiwork. I know you're like, no, Paul H. Dunn is dead. Yeah, sure, he says he's dead. That's me reading Paul H. Dunn's obituary. This guy will say anything. All right, that's a new one for you as well.

Bengt Washburn [00:04:35] We can only do these for you. That's why I love doing this show. There's these jokes I can't ever do anywhere else. Was there anything else new I had? No, that's it. No. I do think though, I should go back to the other joke they do sometimes. Not all churches, but some of them, they say. They say some dumb things. They take dumb stances.

Bengt Washburn [00:05:01] Some of them, they do and they get shocked. Why? People leave in a direct correlation to the advancement of the education in the community. The attendance goes. In fact, I think that's why some of them are so against stem cell research.

Bengt Washburn [00:05:14] What if you use that to fix the brains, those believers are going to stop coming. What happened to the believers? You see what I mean? If you fix their brains, they're not going to believe that shit anymore. What happened in the congregation? Well, they were healed by stem cell research. That's a keeper. That could actually.

Bengt Washburn [00:05:41] That can actually work outside of this venue. So that'll be fun. I was disturbed a little bit during the testimony. It's almost like an anti testimony meeting. Not that you can't get up and say that you believe, but that if you say you believe, not we really want to know if you believe. We don't want you just to get up and say you believe so that that one girl will go out with you. We want you to. Actually, I was a little concerned about the applause after each one. And I hope the larger body of the Mormon Church does not adopt that practice, because then you'll never get them off the stage.

Bengt Washburn [00:06:27] That thing will go on forever. All right. Where else? I don't know where I'm gonna go now. I'm gonna have to go to old stuff. That's gonna stink. Just talking about. What was I gonna talk. Oh, I did grow up Mormon. I'll go into some of the old stuff. Some of you guys haven't heard about it. I did grow up Mormon, which isn't that weird. And you know that. It's not that weird. I think growing up Mormon is not any weirder than growing up Amish.

Bengt Washburn [00:07:02] That really should have been a better joke than that. Instead, most of you. Yeah, that's about right. That's pretty accurate analogy. Is he going to go back to jokes, or is he just going to bore us with accurate analogies?

Bengt Washburn [00:07:23] It's not that weird. Just a lot of rules. I grew up with a lot of rules. There was no drinking and no smoking and no premarital sex and no coffee. The most logical rule, obviously, you think about it, you can't drink, you can't smoke, you can't have sex. Why stay awake? You know, when I. You're just gonna wake up, and then it's downhill until you go back to sleep.

John Dehlin [00:07:52] No.

Bengt Washburn [00:07:53] And when they talked about the rules, I remember they would say, no, those aren't restrictions. Those are guidelines to happiness. Those are things that will help you avoid pitfalls that will make you miserable. That was like the life strategy for happiness. Was. Now we don't pursue happiness. We just avoid misery.

Bengt Washburn [00:08:15] Right.

Bengt Washburn [00:08:15] And that makes sense. Defense wins championships. And you'd say, but I'm not happy. Well, you'll be happy after you die. So I just put that off. Yeah. All right, all right. Which leads us to the old. Who was it that. Is it Kant that had the idea. What is that thing called? Oh, dang it. I'm blanking on the philosophical. The wager. Thank you. Pascal's wager. Thank you. Not count. Pascal's wager.

Bengt Washburn [00:08:51] Right.

Bengt Washburn [00:08:51] Yeah. Where he said the risk. What if you don't believe and you're wrong? You might as well just do it, because if you're wrong, the penalties are greater, which I think is the biggest load of crap on Earth.

Bengt Washburn [00:09:05] Well, you got nothing to lose to believe. Are you kidding me? Are you kidding me? I. I currently moved over to Europe and just came back. I lived there for three years in Germany. It was an amazing experience.

Bengt Washburn [00:09:24] I credit Mormonism for preparing me for the culture shock. You know what I mean? Because when you grow up in Mapleton, Utah, as a devout Mormon. If you grow up in Utah as a devout Mormon, you experience culture shock early and often. Right? Because you're growing up in a country inside your own country.

Bengt Washburn [00:09:43] I mean, you can. And you don't even have to just leave the state to experience culture shock. True. You just turn on the TV and it was a beer commercial. Does Jesus know about this? Is that too far? Do you know what I'm saying? I remember as a kid seeing the super bowl and out pop women in bikinis drinking beer.

Bengt Washburn [00:10:07] No, God would not let this go down. And then the conversation, you all had it. Are they really drinking beer? No, that's apple juice. They don't the bikinis look real? No, that's a body stocking. And they're not really happy either.

Bengt Washburn [00:10:27] That doesn't happen until after you die. That's wickedness. They're not happy. It's that beer commercial of the Super Bowl. I remember seeing that in the super bowl, just thinking, oh, they're gonna get busted. You know, the bishop is watching.

Bengt Washburn [00:10:47] They don't know the bishop is gonna see them drinking apple juice, dressed in a bikini, body stocking, acting like they're enjoying it. Technically, it's not wrong, but it's against the spirit of the law to drink apple juice in a bikini, body stocking, in public.

Bengt Washburn [00:11:10] Oh, my religion. I don't know. I really did enjoy listening to your stories. Those are stories that I, when I was going through this place of not knowing and doubt or whatever, and arriving to where I am now, which is not knowing and doubt, but just being okay with that. You know, like embracing the void. It's like jumping out of a plane, and after a while of falling. Okay, I get used to this.

Bengt Washburn [00:11:46] How long does this go? Till I die. All right. Okay. This is cool. And I got the experience that you create with this conference. Just every time I do a show, I would use my comedy as kind of therapy, and I'd get into these things, and then they would just come up out of the woodwork. Guess what?

Bengt Washburn [00:12:10] Home Mormon kind of too. I'm a bad Mormon like you. We would do like. It would be like that I'm a Mormon commercial. But our version, you know, I drink coffee and I swear. And sometimes I drink wine and I'm a Mormon.

Bengt Washburn [00:12:26] We would do that, but in the bar together. I like the stories of our church. I actually like the Joseph Smith story. It's kind of. It's kind of crazy. I mean, it is, it's wild. It is. It's a crazy story. There's a 14 year old boy, he doesn't know which church to join, so he goes out into the woods to pray. Right?

Bengt Washburn [00:12:54] He's 14. And. And I'm not gonna. The other guy already covered that. Who was that? Where is he? That was funny. Yeah, he's from Springville, I'm from Mapleton. So we're. Yeah, all right. And then when you did that comment, you raised your hand. I swear, I was like, nah, don't add your hand to the square.

Bengt Washburn [00:13:19] We don't need, don't just. We just need the words to know what happened. We don't need. Anyway, so the 14 year old boy goes out in the woods to pray and he has the question, which we all have, you know, which one of these churches is true? And then God the Father and Jesus appeared to him. I don't know why both of them had to.

Bengt Washburn [00:13:41] Well, if just one of us goes, he won't believe us. Oh, well, if this is on the up. And I'll tell you what, you go back, you get God and come back and then we'll talk, you know, like I'm gonna need both of you here corroborating.

Bengt Washburn [00:13:59] So they both come there, God the Father and Jesus, and he says, which church should I join? And then how bad is this? None of them. They're all wrong. You're going to make your own church. And I would have been like, talk about the most. I am so sorry I asked.

Bengt Washburn [00:14:20] Moment in the history of man. I mean, that is the shittiest answer ever. I would be like, that's not safe. You get killed when you do that. That's a horrible idea. And I don't know how to do this.

Bengt Washburn [00:14:36] I'm 14. In one more year, I'm not going to see straight for 10 years. You know what I mean? That would be like, you don't know which computer to buy, Microsoft or Apple. And you went into the woods and you prayed, should I buy an Apple or something that runs on Windows? And God came down and said, oh, you can write your own operating system? Are you crazy?

Bengt Washburn [00:15:09] I'm 14, I can't write code. I'm a farm boy. I'm good at Indian leg wrestling, but. Can write code. All right. Oh, I like some of the beliefs of our religion. Some of them. I'm sorry that they. I wish they had not. They shouldn't have told me. Some of them are so beautiful. Mormonism, like, there is no hell, really. It's temporary. There is a hell, but it's temporary. You just go there and you just kind of serve a sentence for what you've done. And they never should have told me that because I have an extremely high threshold for pain in the future. You know what I mean? So I've already got coffee under my belt. What's a beer?

Bengt Washburn [00:16:07] And.

Bengt Washburn [00:16:12] And then you die and you get the tab and you go, holy shit. Wow, did I just swear again? Is that. Is that why you're taking that away? To make an amendment to that? Damn, no. Dang it. Yeah, they shouldn't told me that it's not hell forever. And it's a church with miracles that believes in the resurrection, that there is a resurrection, a physical, that someone. That someone died and came back from death. And I used to be amazed about that until I read a story in the news. Well, this, this guy died for like five minutes and came back. I said, well, it's a resurrection.

Bengt Washburn [00:16:52] This miracle is happening today, right? I mean, I'm not talking atonement, I'm talking resurrection. I missed you here. Okay, What I'm saying is to come back from the dead happens today. It's just the trick is you gotta come back soon or you leave half your IQ on the other side. And that's part of the miracle they don't talk about is three days he comes back, no brain damage.

Bengt Washburn [00:17:19] That's. Although after that he didn't talk much. Maybe that's why he brought God the Father with him, to do all the talking. The first, I totally lost you there. That's way too sacrilegious. You see what I mean, though? You understand? It's like, and this is my son.

Bengt Washburn [00:17:43] Maybe, maybe some apraxia of speech or something as a result of that. I'm just saying that's another part of the miracle. Not just that he came back, but that after three days, he came back, no brain damage. Now some of his so called followers have brain damage, but I haven't losing yet. That's too mean. I know, I know. Not all of them. Yes, sure.

Bengt Washburn [00:18:12] Oh my goodness. Okay. Yeah, I can do that. I can. Actually, my mom really got into the. Your supply thing, the supply of the food, not because of faith, but because of ocd. It was like one of those instances when faith interacts with mental Health and produces, you know, I mean, insanity can produce very fervent religion. You know what I mean?

Bengt Washburn [00:18:41] I think it's the spirit telling me to bottle 4,000 quarts of cherries, 800 bolts of cloth, and touch my nose 20 times. I'm pretty sure she didn't have that part, but she bottle the cherries, anybody like that? Yeah. The worst part about that was, of course, my mom was also very thrifty. You had to eat those cherries before they went bad. Do you know what I mean? That was her thing. Eat this before it goes bad. She's still that way. You go to visit her, she'll just shove a sandwich in your face. Quick, bent. Eat this before it goes bad.

Bengt Washburn [00:19:18] Quick. How close is that to bad? That's baloney. I don't want to flirt with baloney on the verge of bad. You see what I'm saying? What are we, like eight seconds to critical match maths on salmonella here? Quick, eat this fast.

Bengt Washburn [00:19:41] If my mom had a restaurant, it would be called Eat this before it goes Bad. Anyway, so that same ethic applied to the fruit, you know, I mean, she's thrifty. That's a Mormon value, I guess. I don't know. Or it's just old people value thrifty. She valued the cherries more than our life, so.

Bengt Washburn [00:19:59] Not her. She wouldn't eat that shit. She knew what it was. So that means eight years after the bumper crop of 72, we lived in a cherry orchard. My parents bought a cherry orchard in Mapleton, Utah, that was dying of Western X. This grub is going in the roots and kills. I grew up in a dying cherry orchard, which is like, such a metaphor.

Bengt Washburn [00:20:23] And so that bumper crop, eight years later, I could just for months go down, man. Go down the basement, get some cherries. You got to eat those cherries before they go bad. So, of course, eventually she goes over the line, we're all puking, and Mom's like, well, I guess we didn't eat those fast enough.

Bengt Washburn [00:20:48] I wonder if those cherries were old, do you think? Think, Mom. Those are the cherries that you bottled during Watergate that have transformed our colons into salad shooters. That might be too request. It's his fault. Aya. I don't think it's right to ridicule a belief necessary unless it's really, really mean and stupid. But you know what I mean. I think you can get too far with embracing a religious belief. I mean, after 9, 11, if you're walking around, well, they're just being faithful. To them. No, those are dicks.

Bengt Washburn [00:21:38] That's what I actually am afraid. When you think. I think when you know too much. You know what I mean? When you think you know too much, that's. That's where the danger is. People who know stuff that. That you can't know is what I'm saying. Like no one ever flew a plane into a building because they thought they were right.

Bengt Washburn [00:21:59] That doesn't happen. No, they are the great Satan. They're kinds of evil. We will bring back the well we think they are. So just in case we're all going to kill them. No, that doesn't happen.

Bengt Washburn [00:22:10] So.

Bengt Washburn [00:22:12] But I ran. I've always run into ridicule for that. I remember in school I had a friend who was at this time was still quite devout but struggling with my faith and it hadn't shifted to whatever it is now. And he said, how can you believe in God Bengt? I said why don't you? Well, because. So judgmental and antiquated. And I said well, why don't you believe in God? Is that. Well, and my uncle was kidnapped by aliens. And the aliens. I was like wait a second. Okay, so God or Jesus or Buddha, that stuff's ridiculous. But aliens kidnap your uncle and that's plausible. Your uncle, who has dropped more pills than a two fingered pharmacist gets kidnapped and probed for some.

Bengt Washburn [00:22:59] Some kind of intergalactic catch and release. And that's. I think the alien stuff is every bit as weird as a religion. If you look at. Why are they doing that? It's too crazy. Why would they do that? Why?

Bengt Washburn [00:23:21] Why what? What was the plan of it? Okay, I've got an idea here. Everybody here. I'm gonna fly 200 billion light years to Earth. Going to make big circles in the field. So that'll piss off the farmers. Then we're going to kidnap. Ready Next. Throw him in the butt and let him go. Ready? Break.

Bengt Washburn [00:23:39] That's insane, right? Which I pointed out to him. I think if alien stuff's true, then for aliens Earth is like Tijuana. Me and Thog got drunk and went to Earth. I don't know what we did. He tried to email me the pictures. I couldn't open.

Bengt Washburn [00:23:59] I don't know where to end. I should probably be cutting it up and ending it. Ah, what's the last. Sorry, I'm jet lagged. I am seriously jet lagged. I had the flight from. I've sworn too much already. From the Bad Place.

Bengt Washburn [00:24:15] The place you go for running up a tab where outer darkness. It's my daughter, my 18 month old daughter. It was just got on the plane and you guys have seen these little. They have the little fruit packets now. They call them squeezables. I call them squirtables.

Bengt Washburn [00:24:34] She just, within seconds we sit down a plane, she squirts the back of the seat and the head of the guy in front of me starts screaming like, you know, just hurt your head. Screaming, craps herself. And then we take off.

Bengt Washburn [00:24:54] It was horrible. Has anybody been there 20 minutes? I don't know. If there had been like an underwear bomber next to me, he would have detonated. He would have. And we all would have thanked him on the other side.

Bengt Washburn [00:25:12] Thanks for that, man. I never thought you earned those virgins. Go for it. This is the most flying with a toddler. I think it's got to be more stressful. What's more stressful? Flying with a toddler or smuggling illegal drugs?

Bengt Washburn [00:25:33] Drug smuggler, a toddler fly, which is both at the same time, you would think would be the worst. But at least then you could maybe go and use some of your cargo to ease your pain. Here, hold my baby for the whole flight. All right, all right. So I'm jet lagged and I guess I'll end out with something I've done before a lot for a long time.

Bengt Washburn [00:25:59] When I grew up Mormon. One of the things about is you don't know how weird you are when you're growing up. I grew up very. Not just weird Mormon, but weird weird. You know what I mean? Like Mormons are a different culture inside of large. But I was weird inside of that culture. Does that make sense? I mean, I got rejected by the rejects is what I'm saying.

Bengt Washburn [00:26:19] My name was Bengt, which is a very B E N G T, which is to my mom totally logical. That's a perfectly common name in Sweden. Was wildly popular in the 1800s. Logical to her. I was like, mom, have you been outside?

Bengt Washburn [00:26:39] Do you see any fjords? Did you see a fjord? So armed with this knowledge it's a Swedish name, sends me to school. First day I come home crying. They said my name's not real. Well, did you tell them that in Sweden bent is a popular name? Yeah, they said in Utah bent is a, an adjective.

Bengt Washburn [00:27:06] And she said, oh, bent, your name is the past participle of the verb to band. It's not an adjective. She's a master's in English. And it was logical to my mom, weird names. This was her logic. She said, I don't want my kids having to worry about Sharing their names with other kids in their class at school. And mission accomplished, right? I'm the only bent in the Western hemisphere.

Bengt Washburn [00:27:38] And my brother, Tafeth. Yeah, Tafeth. Got screwed, did he not? Tafeth. Ancient Welsh for David. Tafeth Ancient Welsh. My mom dug up a name in a dead language. Deadly. Who does that? Well, we were going to go with Thog, but then they had a boy.

Bengt Washburn [00:28:03] We had the boy and we. So I grew up weird. But you don't know you're in the weird family. What happens is you have to leave your family and start. That's when you know you're weird. This is why I learned I was weird. I went to another family one day and I'm playing at their house and something happened that cued me in. Well, we're different. What happened was their dog crapped in the living room, right on the carpet. And they cleaned that up immediately.

Bengt Washburn [00:28:33] They were on it. It was like a big deal. And no, in our house, dog crap in the living room. I'll let it dry. It'll come up easier if you let it sit set a while. It's kind of like jello our house. There are always at least two, three dog turds waiting to dry. And then every couple hours, you check them with a toothpick.

Bengt Washburn [00:29:00] So it's weird. So I was growing with a weird family. You have to leave. That's when I learned that Mormon culture was different. I remember going on my mission and just this. So, well, I'll just go to the door and I'll tell them and then they'll go, my goodness, why have I not heard of this? Come on in.

Bengt Washburn [00:29:16] And they sent me to Seattle, and I found that's not the case. That actually some of the things are weird to other people. Like coffee. Evil is a weird idea, right?

John Dehlin [00:29:30] It is.

Bengt Washburn [00:29:30] You don't think it is because when everybody thinks coffee's evil, it's normal. Like when the whole town's doing something weird, it's normal. One person doing something weird, yeah, that's a nut. But a group of people doing something weird, that's a church.

Bengt Washburn [00:29:47] So that's why I found out it's normal. I knew we were weird because only the weirdos would let us in. In Seattle, only the weirdos. It had to be like carnival workers. Literally. The Vietnamese Vietnam vet, alcoholic, whose dog wore a down coat. I'm not kidding.

Bengt Washburn [00:30:08] This is my dog, Twinkie. That's a lovely down coat. Is that Edie Bauer on his dog in Seattle in the summer? The dog was just Looking at me. If you are a man of God, take this down coat off of this furred animal. It's just crazy. They would let you in the nuts. The normal people never let you in.

Bengt Washburn [00:30:37] Like the nice home wasn't gonna let you in. They would tell us, don't gotta. That neighborhood. Like if. If that neighborhood. If they were mowing their lawns, you weren't getting in. They had a lawn. Probably not. And they had like the winding walkway winding up through the yard, you know, winding all the way to the door. Because it's not about getting to the door. It's about. About the journey.

Bengt Washburn [00:30:56] And then you get up to the door and they've got a welcome mat. Welcome, you bull crap. Welcome. You're not welcome. Right? They're not letting us in. They're not even coming to the door. And we knew they were in there. You know they're in there. They're horrible at hide and seek.

Bengt Washburn [00:31:14] They don't even try. Usually they'll just sit there. Windows. Do you see them right through. Through. See him right through the window. Back of a bald head and recliner. I'll never. Just looking at that guy sitting there and that's ringing and him just.

Bengt Washburn [00:31:30] Why are they gone yet? We could hear you too. We can hear them. Are they still there? Can you see them? I can't see them without giving up my position. Call the neighbors. See if they can see them.

Bengt Washburn [00:31:45] Call them. Get. They're not answering. They probably can't get to the damn phone. They got the whole neighborhood in lockdown. And sure hope. Sure hope they're gone before the pizza comes. I remember this is when I really. It dawned on me that we're weird. It takes so much to break, you know, when you come from the norm and it's. It takes so much. Wait, we're different because you're riding. You're knocking on doors, you're riding bikes and suits and it still is not hitting you. But this is when one day we're going along and we bumped into Jehovah Witnesses while we were out.

Bengt Washburn [00:32:25] And I remember we exchanged a glance of commonality, like a bond, kind of like. And I don't mean to be demeaning like about this at all, but it's like. It really is kind of like when dogs see each other in a crowd of people and they go, hey.

Bengt Washburn [00:32:40] It was like that we're. We're in the. And I remember just thinking, yep, except you're wrong. And. And then we pedal into the cul de sac where they had just come out of not thinking they have ruined the fishing hole.

Bengt Washburn [00:32:57] Not understanding that thinking. Oh, they'll understand. We've got something completely different to offer. They'll see it. I'll explain, and they'll let us in and. And it took multiple strangers to him. No. Get out. You were just here. No.

John Dehlin [00:33:10] Weird.

Bengt Washburn [00:33:10] No, you're not. We are weird. We are weird. Well, thanks for having me here at Mormon Stories. It's a great organization. And I guess that's it. See everybody.

John Dehlin [00:33:33] Ben Washbird, everybody. Thursday through Sunday night, Trolley Square. Wise guys.

Bengt Washburn [00:33:48] Come, come, ye saints no toil nor labor fear but with joy wend your

John Dehlin [00:33:59] way

Bengt Washburn [00:34:03] though hard to you this journey may appear Grace shall be as your day Tis better far for us to strive Our useless catch from us to dry to the San Jo your hearts will swell oh, all is well. All is well.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.